# Downtown sidewalks for privately owned businesses



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

I am in the process of planning for next season in regards to sidewalks for our downtown area (about 20 blocks). Currently our municipality requires the property owner to maintain their area but this is not enforced. I have an established relationship with the group of individuals that own or manage @ 50% of these properties and I am fairly certain that they would be supportive of this as it would benefit them and reduce their cost for services.

My question is how do I maintain the same scope to everyone in the area when soliciting their business?
My initial hunch is to pitch it to our current customers and let them do the marketing but I will still have to establish the same standards so its not a cluster F*** when its time to service.
Currently the other 50% either does it themselves or doesn't do anything.


----------



## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

m_ice said:


> I am in the process of planning for next season in regards to sidewalks for our downtown area (about 20 blocks). Currently our municipality requires the property owner to maintain their area but this is not enforced. I have an established relationship with the group of individuals that own or manage @ 50% of these properties and I am fairly certain that they would be supportive of this as it would benefit them and reduce their cost for services.
> 
> My question is how do I maintain the same scope to everyone in the area when soliciting their business?
> My initial hunch is to pitch it to our current customers and let them do the marketing but I will still have to establish the same standards so its not a cluster F*** when its time to service.
> Currently the other 50% either does it themselves or doesn't do anything.


You maintain the walks in front of your customers stores and leave the others. After one storm of the public seeing who has nice clean walks, and the cheap skates that have messed up walks, I bet the rest sign up with you.


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

That's what we are currently doing. 
I'm just trying to be creative as we are doing these walks with tractors and it's slower to skip areas then if we just did them. 
Also, should note we are a low snow area with 2 events so far (2" and 3").


----------



## icudoucme (Dec 3, 2008)

m_ice said:


> That's what we are currently doing.
> I'm just trying to be creative as we are doing these walks with tractors and it's slower to skip areas then if we just did them.
> Also, should note we are a low snow area with 2 events so far (2" and 3").


Make a flyer with some industry statistics(compounded cost of a slip and fall claim vs paying for shoveling and ice melt services) Depending in the business it will at least get them thinking.


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

m_ice said:


> I am in the process of planning for next season in regards to sidewalks for our downtown area (about 20 blocks). Currently our municipality requires the property owner to maintain their area but this is not enforced. I have an established relationship with the group of individuals that own or manage @ 50% of these properties and I am fairly certain that they would be supportive of this as it would benefit them and reduce their cost for services.
> 
> My question is how do I maintain the same scope to everyone in the area when soliciting their business?
> My initial hunch is to pitch it to our current customers and let them do the marketing but I will still have to establish the same standards so its not a cluster F*** when its time to service.
> Currently the other 50% either does it themselves or doesn't do anything.


So here in anchorage alaska there is a thing called "the downtown partnership" which does what sounds like youre trying to do.

https://anchoragedowntown.org/

give them a call maybe they have the insight youre looking for?


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Those are both good ideas and you hit the nail on the head. There is a laid back government mentality which has created a laid back culture amongst the community. You can't force them to do it but you can educate them and create exposure to the issue.


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

cant you just walk up and down their sidewalks until you slip and fall?
I mean statistically, it's inevitable, even on dry sidewalks there's a random chance of this happening. 
All it takes is one decent claim and suddenly "we got to do something about this"


----------



## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

Our town enforces snow removal on all town sidewalks adjacent to property owned by either resi's or commercial. We currently do 75% of the downtown sidewalks as well as schools, some apartment blocks and industrial areas that are served by town owned sidewalks. We do only a couple of "residential" in front of vacant but privately owned lots. It would be nice if you could get your town council on board. Yes it is a PITA doing hit and miss, much nicer to just start at one end and keep going but there are always cheap charlies who would rather not do it or do it themselves. Talk to your potential customers and explain about slip and fall lawsuits and if you can show them some of the settlements out there. Market a sand and salt service and explain the benefits of a one stop service.


----------



## BIG (Aug 23, 2014)

I wouldn't press the slip and fall issue. Since your in Illinois slip and fall lawsuits are hard to win. The Illinois Snow and Ice Removal Act and the Natural Accumulation Rule make it very difficult. Your best bet is to put on your salesmen hat and sell. There will always be the few that won't sign up but like ktffbgb said once the hold outs see your good work you'll get them to sign up.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

m_ice said:


> Those are both good ideas and you hit the nail on the head. There is a laid back government mentality which has created a laid back culture amongst the community. You can't force them to do it but you can educate them and create exposure to the issue.


The Business owners here are required to clean there sidewalks to a 4' piece of brick pavers on the granite curb line. Then the City will clean the pavers off at night when it piles up. They are pretty easy on people that don't clean there walks. Somebody would have to complain about it and they send a letter out to the property owner and has 24 hrs to clean them or they call me in it's called City emergency snow contract.

You don't make any money to speak of cause most will clean them there self within the 24 hrs. It does create a lot of other city work for me. I thought about doing the same thing your talking about but never got around to selling myself. My plan was to give them all a good price but the whole block would have to go for it or it is just not worth it to me to do one here and one there. Good Luck.


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Our city has the same setup here Fred however the city will pile snow next to handicap parking with no regard. I think property owners see this and follow suit with ****ty upkeep.
I have thought about approaching the city to take over their portion as well as my 7 year old would do a better job than what they do but that's a whole topic in itself.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

tpendagast said:


> cant you just walk up and down their sidewalks until you slip and fall?
> I mean statistically, it's inevitable, even on dry sidewalks there's a random chance of this happening.
> All it takes is one decent claim and suddenly "we got to do something about this"


Seriously???

How stupid is this?

And if you're going to slip and fall on dry pavement you should probably buy yourself one of those bubble suits. Or stop chewing gum and walking.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm still not totally sure what you're asking. You want to sign up the other 50%? 

Not going to happen. There will be a few that will always do it themselves. 

As for the others, start selling as someone said. And do your job well and your work will sell itself. 

We do some public walks in HOA's. One of them pays for the public walk through the dues. The other the individual homeowner is responsible. We do a lot of start and stops, it's a pain but we're not doing it for free. We've had a few sign up because we stop at the property line.

As an aside, the laws regarding sidewalk clearing in the city of Grand Rapids itself are flat out stupid. Every single sidewalk in the city is supposed to be cleared to bare pavement within 24 hours. These idiots can't even plow all the streets in 24 hours. Or get them to bare pavement. On top of that, anyone can call in a complaint, they send out a form letter stating you have X number of days to clear it or they will do it themselves and send a bill. Mind you, they don't actually check the walk before sending the letter, they just send it.


----------



## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm still not totally sure what you're asking. You want to sign up the other 50%?
> 
> Not going to happen. There will be a few that will always do it themselves.
> 
> ...


That sounds like my city stole the policy from yours. It's pretty much exactly as you describe over here.


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

From the sounds of it all these cities get together and decide the same stupid policies.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

One small town east of me the City handles all right of way sidewalks clear of snow, Funny thing the assessment dollar is lower than ours. With the property owners paying big moneys on property taxes at least in NY it should be subbed out if the City don't want or equipped to do it.

This one you Guys will call me a Liar, If you live in my City and you want to sell the City comes by and picks out the sidewalk flags possibly all and you have to pay to have your sidewalk repaired before you can sell.

I was making a lot of money at it till a friend of mine another Contractor decided he wanted the majority of it and was down to $6.50 SQ FT. I like to stay at $10.50 Sq Ft but have done some for $10.00. Started out 50 - 50 to HO but the City weaseled there way out of that. HO pays all. Whats next we got to repair the curb to at $30.00 + per FT. http://www.fltimes.com/news/city-co...cle_3cd4fa44-092e-11e5-ad81-effb5fe7ca01.html


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG said:


> This one you Guys will call me a Liar, If you live in my City and you want to sell the City comes by and picks out the sidewalk flags possibly all and you have to pay to have your sidewalk repaired before you can sell.


I'm not sure if they check before selling, but GR does have "inspectors" that go around and mark sections that have to be repaired. At the cost to the homeowner.

City of Wyoming has an assessment that pays for all their walks to be cleared by private contractors.

City of Rentwood has some of their main streets cleared by private contractors and the rest are up to the homeowner. A lot of taxpayers getting screwed there.

The rest are a jumbled mess and I'm not really sure what the requirements are.

The best ones are the bus stops for "The Rapid". They own the bus stops, all maintenance is their responsibility, but every self entitled )*&%#)*( that rides the bus complains about 3 snowflakes, the bus system calls the property owner and tells them they're responsible and liable. We've always encouraged the property owner to tell them to stick it.


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Jeez complaining about snow in bus stops...now I've heard it all. 
You would think they would be thankful there is an enclosure to block wind.


----------



## BIG (Aug 23, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm still not totally sure what you're asking. You want to sign up the other 50%?
> 
> Not going to happen. There will be a few that will always do it themselves.
> 
> ...


You guys are lucky to have 24 hours.Code here is Sidewalks must be shoveled 7 days a week.
If the snow falls between 7 am and 7 pm:
Clear the snow as soon as practicable, but no later than 10 
pm on the day of the snowfall.
If the snow falls overnight between 7 pm and 7 am:
Clear the snow before 10 am on the next day.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If I was bored I would show up to a city commission meeting and ask how they can demand sidewalks be shoveled within 24 hours but they can't even get all the streets plowed in that time frame. And, why do they require bare pavement on sidewalks but don't on the streets.


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> If I was bored I would show up to a city commission meeting and ask how they can demand sidewalks be shoveled within 24 hours but they can't even get all the streets plowed in that time frame. And, why do they require bare pavement on sidewalks but don't on the streets.


I got my city contract this winter. First time they opened it up for bid. They used to do it themselves.
I get an email with addresses of places that have been turned in, verified by an inspector, then receive a letter from the city, giving "x" days to comply, then checked again at the exparation of the time.
My contract requires bare concrete.

I have posed this same question in my own thread but for residential neighborhoods.

My insurance company was hesitant to let me take this contract, the 3rd party servicer (me) raised their antennae as to slip and fall jackpots.
My first city walk was the only one I had so I was able to stay on site and monitor that
nobody fell, while I was working. 
It's been interesting if nothing else.


----------



## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

We have a few downtowns and spaced apart a few blocks. The downtown wards have associations that provide some services and contracting apart from the city or managers. They have maintenance workers driving around in Rtv and gators very slowly and only from 8am-4pm. We have come in to our walks plowed and salted, but we don’t count on it and they only single pass very slowly. 

Not unusual to see 10 companies in plain view operating at different places. Some are condos, businesses, pmc, private or small owners. Multi year contracts, in house staff, pricing, etc are why it’s hard to get so many in a row. Probably same reason you don’t plow all the lots right outside your shop, all of em.


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Seriously???
> 
> How stupid is this?
> 
> And if you're going to slip and fall on dry pavement you should probably buy yourself one of those bubble suits. Or stop chewing gum and walking.


#1 I was joking around about the sidewalks
#2 no its not uncommon for people to fall down on dry pavement, then look for someone to blame sue. You obviously don't get out much or pay to anything else happening besides your own tunnel vision version of black and white.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

tpendagast said:


> #1 I was joking around about the sidewalks
> #2 no its not uncommon for people to fall down on dry pavement, then look for someone to blame sue. You obviously don't get out much or pay to anything else happening besides your own tunnel vision version of black and white.


Sure


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Sure


Ya right! Fixed it for you lol.


----------



## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Sure


Your ignorance is coming through....


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Your ignorance is coming through....


Understood


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

tpendagast said:


> #1 I was joking around about the sidewalks
> #2 no its not uncommon for people to fall down on dry pavement, then look for someone to blame sue. You obviously don't get out much or pay to anything else happening besides your own tunnel vision version of black and white.


OSHA and most insurance companies differentiate between "slip" and fall, and "trip" and fall.
Thought I posted this earlier, hope it's still relevant.


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

jonniesmooth said:


> OSHA and most insurance companies differentiate between "slip" and fall, and "trip" and fall.
> Thought I posted this earlier, hope it's still relevant.


Inevitably 
Most claims are still settled (insurance companies know they're scammers but it's still cheaper to settle, typically )
The point I was making is , it usually only takes one good claim before property owners realize "we have to do something about this"
I could provide 5 years of golden brick road sidewalks for half the price of most slip and fall settlements.


----------

