# Can a "Skid Steer Proof" Wooden Bulk Salt Bin be Built?



## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

Hello,

For the record, I really enjoy working with wood. Steel not so much.

I am always up for a challenge as long as the end goal is worthy of the time invested.

My question is: Can a wood framed structure be "stick built" to hold let's say 80 ton of bulk salt? The salt will be handled (pushed, stacked, scooped, etc.) by a S300 Bobcat. This should give you a good idea as to the level of structual stress that the wooden structure may face and the needed attachment when the Bobcat is "handling" the bulk salt. My goal is to build this structure inside of a steel warehouse, atop a well cured concrete floor(30 years +) and just below the 14' overhead clearance (just below the steel roof cross members).

We have used outdoor bulk salt bins (concrete block with coverall roof) and a 53' shipping container but never anything wood based. Can it be done?

We are just trying to maximize our available resources as best as possible.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to any possibilities offered.

Joe


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

There was a guy advertising salt bins on the NJ craigslist. They were wood, pics weren't great but they looked like they were 6x6 structural members and true 2x6 walls with steel "runners" or "straps" bolted to the walls up to a height where a bucket might bite the wood if they were hit accidentally. Seemed like a pretty rugged set up, all of the sidewalls were rienforced with 6x6s every 5-6 feet and then on a 45 degree angle down from about 6 ft to the ground.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

seen it done with basicly a fence...didnt last super long, but they got a few years out of it, all depends on the operator. he cant "push" the salt....he can scoop it tho. it would have to be pinned into the floor, and id recomment having bracing on the back side

i did see a guy do CMU blocks seemed to work well for him.


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

Thanks for the ideas....

I think the wood approach will likely push the limits of my budget.

Chain link fence.... never thought of that! I guess you could build the enclosure a little more substantial by using larger diameter posts. Maybe after the chain link has been stretched across the posts you could really just line the interior with tarping and change as torn. What do you think? What kind of mount do you need to attach the posts atop the concrete floor? I am not willing to cut/dig through the existing concrete floor.


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## show-n-go (Feb 5, 2009)

At my buddy's shop he used the concrete blocks inside his shop.Just like your outdoor shelter.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Chicago, if it's going to be inside, just bring in a load of blocks and be done with it. Salt can't hurt 'em, you can't hurt 'em, you can't move em, and you can easily reconfigure or disassemble the bin as needed. They're not terribly expensive at all, and we've built several bins for folks in the Chicago area. Being that it's going to be inside, coverage is not an issue. Wood lining works well, but to build a wooden bin--one mistake with a Bobcat and it's toast.

LMK if we can help!


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

(also, the lateral (spreading) load of the salt can easily tear the wooden bin apart. That's why DOTs use concrete bases with wooden roofs for their domes.)


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

I know what you mean.

It looks like concrete blocks it will be. The only issue I was trying to avoid is the 2' of width I loose on each face of the bin. That's the beauty of the steel containers, sheet metal walls, but you get a roof (good or bad - all depends).

Anyone know of a resource that will sell/truck these blocks to northern Illinois? Any idea of how much the notched top blocks go for now a day? Once a source is found, I will determine the length of blocks (weight) I will need. Some will be lifted with a lift truck (8K capacity - 6' ok) and the other blocks will have to be under 2,500lbs.(3' or less) so I can move them with a S250/S300 Bobcat.


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

ChicagoSnow;959710 said:


> I know what you mean.
> 
> It looks like concrete blocks it will be. The only issue I was trying to avoid is the 2' of width I loose on each face of the bin. That's the beauty of the steel containers, sheet metal walls, but you get a roof (good or bad - all depends).
> 
> Anyone know of a resource that will sell/truck these blocks to northern Illinois? Any idea of how much the notched top blocks go for now a day? Once a source is found, I will determine the length of blocks (weight) I will need. Some will be lifted with a lift truck (8K capacity - 6' ok) and the other blocks will have to be under 2,500lbs.(3' or less) so I can move them with a S250/S300 Bobcat.


as long as you dont need to go down hill you can easily load them with an s250. done it with over 200 blocks over the years all you need is chains and pallet forks, hell, you can even do it on the bucket. the blocks Im talking about are 3300 lbs and are the ones in your pic 2x2x6


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

6 footers can be moved with a 'cat, but stacking is dicey. I tried with the S250 we had to use, but I couldn't get it high enough to stack 3 high. 6' weigh roughly 3K, and 3' 1500#. We haul for a ready mix company during the summer, so I have sources to get blocks locally. We typically truck 15 per load, and I can bring a small truck crane with 5 more for outside builds--crane makes it a very short affair. Price on 6' is roughly $50, 3" are around $25. Depending on where you are in Chicago, estimate $200 in freight. As long as they get off the truck quick, you wouldn't have any demurrage charges to factor in.


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

stacking three high isn't too hard unless its downhill. just gotta shorten the chains all the way down.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Considering the S250 would nose over on flat ground...yeah it didn't work too well for me, lol. The first time that happens, you remember why you always wear your seat belt in a skid...heheh


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

Westhardt - Can you assist with the blocks? I will not need help to unload or stack, but just repeated deliveries.

Any volume discounts? 

The bin will likely be a minimum 40' long and 12' across the back. 3 or 4 courses (4 ideally). The original bin planned was 65' deep but I think I will grow the bin as needed.

NW - I don't know what type of counter weights you run on your S250's but ours could not lift a 6' block. Not even a little bit. The rear wheels would lift off the ground every time. We were trying to lift the highest course at the time, but I believe the machines are just not counterbalanced to handle the 6 footers (3,400lbs.). The 3 footers (yes - 1,700lbs.), but bigger that that.... I don't know.


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

like I said. done it over 200 times with an s250 now use a cat252b. I use the pallet forks and put the chains about 1 foot from the end and it works great. the closer to the skid the worse off you are.


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

NW - I'll take your word on it, but I think I'll try a 5K+ lift truck instead.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

ChicagoSnow;959737 said:


> Westhardt - Can you assist with the blocks? I will not need help to unload or stack, but just repeated deliveries.
> 
> Any volume discounts?
> 
> ...


Blocks are not a problem. I will check tomorrow to see how many are on the ground available. That sounds a lot like a bin I built in Schaumburg. 42' across the back, and 18' deep. 21 blocks for the back wall, and 12 each side--total 45 blocks. Held an easy 350 ton, tarped.

You just let me know how many you need, where they are going, and when you need them. I'd post contact info, but I already got a waving finger for that since we are not yet a sponsor...PM please for that.


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

Westhardt - I will definitely let you know when I am ready. Thank you for the information!

By the way, do the blocks mentioned have flat top/ends or are they notched?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

T&G--tongue and groove, so they lock together. Also, the blocks I use are pretty nice--no crap finish.

LMK!!


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Oh--keep in mind if you build this inside you have to consider you incoming material. If the trucks don't have the height to dump inside, you'll have the bale the material into the bin.

Food for thought!!


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

I totally understand. There will be no way to dump inside. We have a paved area that will be the staging area for all incoming bulk loads.

I see you are in the trucking business. Have you ever looked into a tailgate mounted conveyor/auger for your semi's? I am considering one for the truck I "want to have" - some day.

Care to take a look at a web link that I found?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

I have thought about it, but we run frameless trailers mostly, and you can't really drive with them raised--very unstable. I have seen "insert" conveyor that goes into the grain door for a framed truck, it that what you're referring to? Bring on the link!!


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

Here it is..........

http://www.hydrafoldauger.com/truckauger.html

Be sure to let me know what your opinion is.

I would greatly appreciate your feedback!


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Interesting. I've toyed around with similar ideas for stacking right from the truck, but just drawing board stuff really. The two things I'm concerned about with that design are the speed of discharge, and the fact that it eliminates the option of conventional end dumping unless you remove it. It's got potential though.

For your situation, with the low ceiling, I'd consider something like this...super cool, but would need a lot of dedicated work to be worth the investment...

http://www.timpte.com/conveyor.html


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

Very nice!

Have you had a chance to see one of those trailers up close? How much are we talking about? Can you buy lessor capacities or is that their only model.

I truly believe that the farmers of the United States are some of the most creative and ingenious people anywhere. God bless them!


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

I have not seen one personally. That's a standard sized grain trailer--they might make one smaller, but I would be surprised. I'd guess probably $45-$55K for something like that. Like I said--you'd have to have a lot of dedicated work to get a decent ROI...

I wanna say I've seen anothert brand that allow the conveyor to swing...can't remember which one, and it might be an auger...


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Here--for the "little" crowd...

http://www.dktrailers.com/trailers/Gooseneck & Tag Grain Trailers/index.htm


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

Well, thanks again for the information. 

If you wouldnt mind, please keep me in mind if you come across the other conveyor/auger link.

I don't know why, but I have always been intrigued with the many ways to handle bulk materials.... namingly rock salt. I am always looking for a better way.

Take care,

Joe


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Will do--always a better mousetrap.

LMK on the blocks!

Trent..


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## grassmaster06 (Nov 30, 2008)

how much salt can you put in a 53 ft container and is it hard to load due to the ceiling height


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

ChicagoSnow;959737 said:


> I don't know what type of counter weights you run on your S250's but ours could not lift a 6' block. Not even a little bit. The rear wheels would lift off the ground every time. We were trying to lift the highest course at the time, but I believe the machines are just not counterbalanced to handle the 6 footers (3,400lbs.). The 3 footers (yes - 1,700lbs.), but bigger that that.... I don't know.


You need a real machine.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Westhardt Corp.;959777 said:


> Interesting. I've toyed around with similar ideas for stacking right from the truck, but just drawing board stuff really. The two things I'm concerned about with that design are the speed of discharge, and the fact that it eliminates the option of conventional end dumping unless you remove it. It's got potential though.
> 
> For your situation, with the low ceiling, I'd consider something like this...super cool, but would need a lot of dedicated work to be worth the investment...
> 
> http://www.timpte.com/conveyor.html


That thing is awesome.


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## kikengrass (Sep 9, 2008)

did you really get out with the boom up to take that pic. your nuts


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## Pushin 2 Please (Dec 15, 2009)

kikengrass;960031 said:


> did you really get out with the boom up to take that pic. Your nuts


x2.........


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

cretebaby;959934 said:


> You need a real machine.


Holy *crap* that's impressive. I even took the bucket _off_ on the S250 I was using, but two high was all she could muster before pulling a wicked endo.

Very nice!


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;959984 said:


> That thing is awesome.


Isn't it though? I have considered acquiring one, as it can pull double duty. Pricey though...


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## R&R Yard Design (Dec 6, 2004)

Yea but look at the rear wheels on the Deere, it got weights in the rims, looks to be about 100-150lbs in each


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## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

Grassmaster - At least 80 ton. After loading/pushing the salt in to the container you have about 2' from the top that remains open. Keep in mind that the container pictured is a "high cube". I believe it is 9.5' tall (9' or 9.5.... Im not sure - but taller than a standard container). Figure between 2 - 2.5 ton per linear foot (high cube container). Eventually you get the hang of it. Amazingly enough the container has taken a few interior side and roof hits and besides a few scratches - all ok. The steel seems to flex just enough to not tear. As a side note, our bucket cutting edge/top corners have been bent inward (over time - impacts to concrete curbs, blocks, etc.) which prevent tearing the container when in contact.

Crete - Nice machine! That's one make I have yet to use. How do you like it? Your making me wonder if the concrete block I was trying to lift was a 6' or an 8'. I could swear that we would tip(w/S250) when trying to lift a 2' x 2' x 6'.


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## mrsops (Dec 28, 2009)

I keep my salt tucked away inside my container with the doors shut. We been doing this for about 15 years. The container is really rotting out from the inside i may have to prime it and paint it in the summer time lol. I also have a weather tent i put up but the salt freezes so i never used it. I just park a truck under it.

another note i have the cement blocks as well for bins and i never had a problem lifting them with my s250 when i had one.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

kikengrass;960031 said:


> did you really get out with the boom up to take that pic. your nuts





Pushin 2 Please;960036 said:


> x2.........


I have the boom locks out.



Westhardt Corp.;960066 said:


> Holy *crap* that's impressive. I even took the bucket _off_ on the S250 I was using, but two high was all she could muster before pulling a wicked endo.
> 
> Very nice!


Thanks.



R&R Yard Design;960154 said:


> Yea but look at the rear wheels on the Deere, it got weights in the rims, looks to be about 100-150lbs in each


The wheel weights are only about 150# total.

But I don't need them, it will do this with or without them.



ChicagoSnow;960241 said:


> Crete - Nice machine! That's one make I have yet to use. How do you like it? Your making me wonder if the concrete block I was trying to lift was a 6' or an 8'. I could swear that we would tip(w/S250) when trying to lift a 2' x 2' x 6'.


Thanks, Deere's kick a$$.

ps I have never seen these blocks in an 8 footer.


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## kikengrass (Sep 9, 2008)

The boom locks probably lock the controls right? they don't protect you from a hydraulic failure or malfunction. unless these you speak of are mechanical locks that will hold the boom up in the same place in case of a failure which i don't think they are. most machines have a control lock out for safety. but its not to hold the load in the air so you can get out and walk in the pinch point might never happen but better safe than sorry.
i learned the hard way had a small dump line blow off and spray me in the face with hydro oil luckily i got out just in time with the help of my crew. will never do that again


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

kikengrass;961319 said:


> The boom locks probably lock the controls right? they don't protect you from a hydraulic failure or malfunction. unless these you speak of are mechanical locks that will hold the boom up in the same place in case of a failure which i don't think they are. most machines have a control lock out for safety. but its not to hold the load in the air so you can get out and walk in the pinch point might never happen but better safe than sorry.
> i learned the hard way had a small dump line blow off and spray me in the face with hydro oil luckily i got out just in time with the help of my crew. will never do that again


It has mechanical boom locks that engage from inside the cab.


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## kikengrass (Sep 9, 2008)

Nice, just didn't look to safe! you would no your machine better than me. only ran a few of those deers mostly cat. Any way nice machine crete. Whats the tip weight on that thing? Hp?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

kikengrass;961325 said:


> nice, just didn't look to safe! You would no your machine better than me. Only ran a few of those deers mostly cat. Any way nice machine crete. Whats the tip weight on that thing? Hp?


3600# & 65 iirc


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

And they have the *nerve* to call that thing a "250"...


Pshaw.


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## tracerich (Oct 25, 2004)

I was thinking about salt bins and storage and such also. Could you use a 80 yard dumpster with an open top? It's almost 40 foot long, and just about 8 feet tall, and 8 feet wide. Probably be able to rent two, for five hundred bucks for the season... After the season, call and have them picked up...


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

We park our machines (new hollands mostly) with the arms up & boom locks enganed, makes starting MUCH easier if a jump is needed. Sops is that a CAT I see parked next to the Bobcat collection there??


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## mrsops (Dec 28, 2009)

forestfireguy;962376 said:


> We park our machines (new hollands mostly) with the arms up & boom locks enganed, makes starting MUCH easier if a jump is needed. Sops is that a CAT I see parked next to the Bobcat collection there??


Yes i have a 305ccr cat excavator


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

I used to run a 305 CAT pretty regularly, it's a really nice machine........Hope it serves you well.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

cretebaby;961335 said:


> 3600# & 65 iirc


Crete, I think 3600# is the tipping load not the operating weight o fthat machine. How it lifts that size block is beyond me!! 

Must be one of those 500 pounders that's virgin concrete & hollow.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

jomama45;962646 said:


> Crete, I think 3600# is the tipping load not the operating weight o fthat machine.


You are absolutely correct.

Kikengrass asked me what the tipping weight was.:laughing:



jomama45;962646 said:


> How it lifts that size block is beyond me!!


See post number 30.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

cretebaby;962653 said:


> See post number 30.


OK, I looked closer now this time & see the chain over the rear axle & anchored into the slab. wesport


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

jomama45;962646 said:


> Crete, I think 3600# is the tipping load not the operating weight o fthat machine. How it lifts that size block is beyond me!!
> 
> Must be one of those 500 pounders that's virgin concrete & hollow.


But those blocks weren't red...


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

you don't need a deere 250 to lift like that. cat bobcat and case models of the same size all handle those 3300# blocks if the operator has half a brain and the chains are placed right. Don't waste the money on rental of the 5k lift truck.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

NW Snow Removal;962693 said:


> you don't need a deere 250 to lift like that. cat bobcat and case models of the same size all handle those 3300# blocks if the operator has half a brain and the chains are placed right. Don't waste the money on rental of the 5k lift truck.


Have you read this thread?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

NW Snow Removal;962693 said:


> you don't need a deere 250 to lift like that. cat bobcat and case models of the same size all handle those 3300# blocks if the operator has half a brain and the chains are placed right. Don't waste the money on rental of the 5k lift truck.


An S250 will handle them very well, if by "very well" you mean "flipped forward whilst doing a wicked stoppie"

:laughing:


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;963107 said:


> An S250 will handle them very well, if by "very well" you mean "flipped forward whilst doing a wicked stoppie"
> 
> :laughing:


I'm guessing that you didn't have the concrete block chained to forks just like in Crete's picture? I've lifted a few pallets with a known weight well over 4K pounds with my S250 w/o any counterweights. And 40-48" pallets put the load that much farther from the machine, making it more prone to tipping. If your trying to set w/ a bucket & draping the chain over the cutting edge of the bucket, then it will more prone to tip.

Regardless, I'm still impressed by Crete's 250, as it's not rated to lift anywhere near that much.


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## In2toys (Jan 25, 2006)

Hook the chain closest to the rear edge of the forks. Has anyone tried to use a farm grain auger to transfer salt, I haven't, just curious. You could put it right inside one of those containers & possibly get it fuller than with a skid. Not sure, just a thought. It seems to me they make grain suckers also. suck from one pile & move to another via a hose. Again, not sire if it would work with salt, just throwing ideas out there...


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

jomama45;963170 said:


> I'm guessing that you didn't have the concrete block chained to forks just like in Crete's picture? I've lifted a few pallets with a known weight well over 4K pounds with my S250 w/o any counterweights. And 40-48" pallets put the load that much farther from the machine, making it more prone to tipping. If your trying to set w/ a bucket & draping the chain over the cutting edge of the bucket, then it will more prone to tip.
> 
> Regardless, I'm still impressed by Crete's 250, as it's not rated to lift anywhere near that much.


I'm don't actually use a chain.

I built this for lifting these blocks.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

jomama45;963170 said:


> I'm guessing that you didn't have the concrete block chained to forks just like in Crete's picture? I've lifted a few pallets with a known weight well over 4K pounds with my S250 w/o any counterweights. And 40-48" pallets put the load that much farther from the machine, making it more prone to tipping. If your trying to set w/ a bucket & draping the chain over the cutting edge of the bucket, then it will more prone to tip.
> 
> Regardless, I'm still impressed by Crete's 250, as it's not rated to lift anywhere near that much.


We went so far as to remove the attachment altogether and drop a chain direct off the attachment rail, figuring that we'd shed a couple hundred pounds with the loss of the attachment and be OK. Not to mention bringing the CL closer in.

It went higher, but not enough to stack before nosediving.

Meh, that's why I choose to use one of these for building bins--super fast, and can bring in a few more blocks as well...(representative photo, anyway)


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## Mike S (Feb 11, 2007)

Did you guys know a bobcat 430 fast track mini hoe will unload a trailer full of the 2x2x3 blocks!!!!! It sure will! I had to take a trailer load of them at a smoking deal and it really was not thought out well but it all worked out.......Kind of!!!! LOL!


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Three footers are light--the full-size six footers are the issue. I'm gonna guess that you got about 30 of those in a load...that must have been *really* fun unloading them all.

:laughing:


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Wait...were those the new style hollow blocks?

Were they red?


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## kikengrass (Sep 9, 2008)

Kikengrass asked me what the tipping weight was.:laughing:

Crete I don't see y this is funny! i wanted to know what the tipping weight of the machine was, example before you would do a face plant. which i guess u did if it is correct, did not check iv seen people lifting things to heavy and flip then wonder y they did like they thought the machine was able to do any thing. people rarely know or bother to check what there machines roc is before they get all ramy and attempt to pick things to heavy for there machine. This is how people get injured


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## kikengrass (Sep 9, 2008)

Kikengrass asked me what the tipping weight was.:laughing:

Crete I don't see y this is funny! i wanted to know what the tipping weight of the machine was, example before you would do a face plant. which i guess u did give me the tipping weight if it is correct, did not check iv seen people lifting things to heavy and flip then wonder y they did like they thought the machine was able to do any thing. people rarely know or bother to check what there machines roc is before they get all ramy and attempt to pick things to heavy for there machine. This is how people get injured

sorry for the double post was a little impatient


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

kikengrass;967954 said:


> Kikengrass asked me what the tipping weight was.:laughing:
> 
> Crete I don't see _why_ this is funny!


It was funny because Jomama was trying to correct the response I gave to your question.


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## sparky2410 (Nov 26, 2009)

Our salt shed is a wooden pole barn. 6x6 posts 4' o.c. with ratchet straps bolted to the rear of building to help hold the pressure. The roof is very steep to allow clearance for tractor trailers to dump inside. Holds approximately 35-40 ton when stacked up. We have used this building for 10+ years now and never had any problems. When we get down to 5 yards or so we refill. Use approximately 130 tons/yr.


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