# Ram 2500 suspension.



## brianslawncare

I just bought a 2012 dodge 2500 with a 8.5 western mvp v plow. It's sagging in the front and when the plow is in the v it will bump the ground on steep decilines.was thinking maybe add the timbren, or sumo springs? Any ideas if this will help? Looks like the timbren go where the bump stops are reducing sag.


----------



## brianslawncare

Anyone??


----------



## JustJeff

I'd skip the Timbrens and use air bags. But yes, you can use either of your two options. You could also add a leveling kit. You could also just push the wings forward a little bit to stop them from dragging. I'm carrying an 11' Boss V on the front of my '13 2500 Ram, and it carries it just fine. Just don't retract the wings all the way back.


----------



## duramax plow

timbrens will help., do you have weight in the back?, referred to as a ballast. 
I'd raised the front., and put in heavier duty springs


----------



## duramax plow

a 3 inch lift kit is about $400.00 for your truck., that would be the option I go for.


----------



## seville009

On my 2006 F350, I put the 6,000 lb springs on the front. It reduced the sag with my mvp on it by about 1.5 to 2 inches. I did it mainly because the plow tips would scrape alot when just driving around.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Timbrens suck.

Counterweight behind the rear axle for starters. Then airbags. 

Lift kit won't help carry the weight better like airbags. Also won't help if you're over capacity on the front axle.


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> Timbrens suck.
> 
> Counterweight behind the rear axle for starters. Then airbags.
> 
> Lift kit won't help carry the weight better like airbags. Also won't help if you're over capacity on the front axle.


Well if you're over the capacity of the front axles., Nothing will fix that except., reducing the weight of the front capacity.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> Well if you're over the capacity of the front axles., Nothing will fix that except., reducing the weight of the front capacity.


You sure?


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> You sure?


If you are overloading your AXLES., what would change that? All the weight are being transferred from the vehicle>suspension>Axles>Tires.

Air bags will NOT change the fact that you would need to REDUCE THE WEIGHT.
Explain mean the magic to fix that please.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> If you are overloading your AXLES., what would change that? All the weight are being transferred from the vehicle>suspension>Axles>Tires.
> 
> Air bags will NOT change the fact that you would need to REDUCE THE WEIGHT.
> Explain mean the magic to fix that please.


I referred to the front axle only.

Have you ever taken a physics class?


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> I referred to the front axle only.
> 
> Have you ever taken a physics class?


Yes., Now If you have say., a plow that's Too heavy for a trucks front AXLE, how will you fix that., without getting a lighter plow?
We are NOT talking about SAG here. But being OVER LOADED.
Explain that please?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> If you are overloading your AXLES., what would change that? All the weight are being transferred from the vehicle>suspension>Axles>Tires.
> 
> Air bags will NOT change the fact that you would need to REDUCE THE WEIGHT.
> Explain mean the magic to fix that please.


I referred to the front axle only.

Have you ever taken a physics class


duramax plow said:


> Yes., Now If you have say., a plow that's Too heavy for a trucks front AXLE, how will you fix that., without getting a lighter plow?
> We are NOT talking about SAG here. But being OVER LOADED.
> Explain that please?


Ever hear of levers?

P.S. I already mentioned it in this thread.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Stupid browser...crashed while posting earlier...hence the double post.


----------



## duramax plow

I'm also a certified RIGGER., Loads, that's my thing., properly loading a vehicle., and rigging irregular shaped objects properly., I know how to do, and calculate the CENTER of gravity. 
Nevertheless., I'm open to something new.

Overloading Axles is done on the regular when people put air bags in their 1500's and 2500's., Just because you vehicle is not sagging does not mean, it's not overloaded.

Can you show a picture or explain how a lever would change the weight from an Axle being overloaded on a scale?
I'm genuinely curios


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> Stupid browser...crashed while posting earlier...hence the double post.


----------



## brianslawncare

I'm lost. Don't get timbren, get a lift? My old chevy 2500 the truck bracket hit occasionally, I had 245 tires and changed them to 265 and never had a issue after. But don't want to pay for new tires on this truck since they only have 1000 miles on them.


----------



## duramax plow

brianslawncare said:


> I'm lost. Don't get timbren, get a lift? My old chevy 2500 the truck bracket hit occasionally, I had 245 tires and changed them to 265 and never had a issue after. But don't want to pay for new tires on this truck since they only have 1000 miles on them.


That's because 265 set of tires is able to hold like 1,000 pounds more weight., weight capacity makes a difference in your vehicle sagging


----------



## NYH1

Mark Oomkes said:


> Timbrens suck.
> 
> *Counterweight behind the rear axle for starters.* Then airbags.
> 
> Lift kit won't help carry the weight better like airbags. Also won't help if you're over capacity on the front axle.





duramax plow said:


> Well if you're over the capacity of the front axles., Nothing will fix that except., reducing the weight of the front capacity.


Otherwise or officially known as ballast weight in plow manuals. Put it behind the rear wheels against the tailgate. Once we get that figured out, we can then explore the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration's role in specific truck/plow/ballast weight REQUIRMENTS....baby steps.

OP, put about 550/600 lbs. of sand bags up against your tailgate. It'll unload the front end quite a bit. It's safer too.

Good luck, NYH1.

NYH1.


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> Otherwise or officially known as ballast weight in plow manuals. Put it behind the rear wheels against the tailgate. Once we get that figured out, we can then explore the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration's role in specific truck/plow/ballast weight REQUIRMENTS....baby steps.
> 
> OP, put about 550/600 lbs. of sand bags up against your tailgate. It'll unload the front end quite a bit. It's safer too.
> 
> Good luck, NYH1.
> 
> NYH1.


You are wrong., it does not unload the weight off the front axles., it's balances the center of gravity by adding weight to the rear axles to match the added weight of the front axles.

If your front axles are overloaded, adding weight to the rear axles does NOTHING to fix an overloaded axle


----------



## NYH1

duramax plow said:


> You are wrong., it does not unload the weight off the front axles., it's balances the center of gravity by adding weight to the rear axles to match the added weight of the front axles.
> 
> If your front axles are overloaded, adding weight to the rear axles does NOTHING to fix an overloaded axle


By adding weight BEHIND the rear wheels it most certainly takes a load off of the front axle. Both of your axles are fulcrum points. By adding weight it shifts the weight distribution on those fulcrum points, adding to one while taking it off the other. It's basic leverage....and in every plow owners manual.

NYH1.


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> By adding weight BEHIND the rear wheels it most certainly takes a load off of the front axle. Both of your axles are fulcrum points. By adding weight it shifts the weight distribution on those fulcrum points, adding to one while taking it off the other. It's basic leverage....and in every plow owners manual.
> 
> NYH1.


That's is wrong, you're confusing 2 different things.
If you load 3,000 pounds box in a pickup bed behind the rear wheels of a 2015 f250 your UNDER gvw, but your overloading your rear axles. So you move it towards the glass to shift the center of gravity between the 2 axles., something like a 70-30 split of weight.

What we're talking about is a stationary plow that overloads the front axle., and shifts weight OFF the rear wheels making the center of gravity shift too far on the front axle.
Adding a ballast at that point helps with stability by shifting the center of gravity back between the center of the 2 axles.

The front axles is still OVERLOADED


----------



## duramax plow

I'll make it easy., if you can lift 50 pounds in each arm., 100 pounds total., if I give you 100 pounds in just the left arm., then tell you even it out with 100 pounds in the right arm., it's

STILL TOO MUCH WEIGHT. Just because it's even., its still Over loaded


----------



## Mark Oomkes

I'm out...too little physics in this conversation.


----------



## JustJeff

I don't know if he's right or not, and I don't care. To me, his point is mute. The bottom line is, if you add air bags to the front, even if the weight is over the FAWR, it still carries the weight better and more safely. Most all of us are overweight if we've got a spreader that's full regardless. His question was about dragging the plow in the front. The Timbrens would ease this issue a little, but air bags will completely eliminate the sag if he wants.


----------



## duramax plow

Do I need to go to Cat scale to show you that adding a Ballast does NOT make the weight on the front axle lighter enough? To bring the Faw to not being overloaded 
Just example fawr 4,500lbs. rawr 7,500 lbs
Ex. 
FAW: 4,000 lbs 
RAW:4,000 lbs
Add 1,000 lbs plow 
Faw 4,800 lbs
Raw 4,200 lbs
500 pound ballast
Faw 4,750
Raw 4,750

You would still be overloaded., about time you balance out the load of a plow overloading tour Front axles., you will overload the rear axles


----------



## duramax plow

JustJeff said:


> I don't know if he's right or not, and I don't care. To me, his point is mute. The bottom line is, if you add air bags to the front, even if the weight is over the FAWR, it still carries the weight better and more safely. Most all of us are overweight if we've got a spreader that's full regardless. His question was about dragging the plow in the front. The Timbrens would ease this issue a little, but air bags will completely eliminate the sag if he wants.


I agree., eliminating say is easy with air bags., or in the rear adding helper springs , but it's also an easy way to overload your vehicle and cause other problems., 
I've been their starting out. Blew out both front hubs., killed my brakes and rotors., had blew out my front shocks :laugh::laugh::laugh:
So the load is stable., but technically, it's not safer if your severely overloaded is my point.

People have died from drivers severely overloading trucks., and not being able to stop or parts failing causing damage to nearby vehicles


----------



## JustJeff

You can get 19 scales if you want. Like I just said, yes, he's overweight, but his question was "how do I not get my plow to scrape", and that's how he can do it correctly. What part of that do YOU not understand?


----------



## JustJeff

The guy is asking you what time it is, and you're telling him how to build a clock.


----------



## duramax plow

JustJeff said:


> The guy is asking you what time it is, and you're telling him how to build a clock.


ok, so we're not going back an forth., sometimes, you can have to much plow for a truck correct?
I see older F250's with 2 yard salt spreaders with air bag suspension barely sagging. At that point, their tires are severely Overloaded., and can cause a blow out. 
His problem as I stated early in the thread was to upgrade the suspension., But I like to point out, that its not correcting an overloaded problem, but masking it.

I've seen accidents from people who've done that., it's why I bought my dually from my first truck. Needed a bigger truck. It's why I bought a 8 yard dump truck. Being overloaded is all fine till someone crashes into another vehicle.


----------



## JustJeff

Great. Now we've got a DOT inspector amongst us along with a Connor. Just great.


----------



## duramax plow

Almost a perfect example for a v setup adding timbrens


----------



## NYH1

JustJeff said:


> Great. Now we've got a DOT inspector amongst us along with a Connor. Just great.


----------



## brianslawncare

It's a lot better with 10, 50lb bags of salt in it.just thought I can do something to the suspension to fix the problem.


----------



## NYH1

Put it against the tailgate. Your lift chain may have to much slack in it, just a thought. If your MVP is the one with the regular wings and not the flared wings it weighs about the same as my plow, about 900 lbs. plus mount. I did have Timbrens installed when they put my plow on. With 600 lbs. of ballast against the tailgate my front drops about an inch when I lift the plow. If I run without ballast weight my plow is a lot lower to the ground when lifted and my rear end is higher. Ballast weight fixes both.

https://info.bossplow.com/Blog/bid/153972/Before-You-Buy-That-Diesel-Snowplow-Truck
http://www.pwmag.com/fleets/proper-plow-ballasting-lowers-liability_o


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> Put it against the tailgate. Your lift chain may have to much slack in it, just a thought. If your MVP is the one with the regular wings and not the flared wings it weighs about the same as my plow, about 900 lbs. plus mount. I did have Timbrens installed when they put my plow on. With 600 lbs. of ballast against the tailgate my front drops about an inch when I lift the plow. If I run without ballast weight my plow is a lot lower to the ground when lifted and my rear end is higher. Ballast weight fixes both.
> 
> https://info.bossplow.com/Blog/bid/153972/Before-You-Buy-That-Diesel-Snowplow-Truck
> http://www.pwmag.com/fleets/proper-plow-ballasting-lowers-liability_o


1 more time for those who can't Fathom still being over weight. 
The Front axle PAYload on a 2012 ram 2500 is around 1,000 pounds stock 
The diagram here, First add the weight of a V plow which is around 900 pounds. 
Your close to maxing out your front axles. Add passengers., or any other item in the truck your overloading your axles.
The key is to actually weigh your truck, with the plow instead manufacturer weight numbers., and your probably extremely over your axles. 
The illustration above., if it used actual numbers, using a plow, with the recommended ballast, and showing gross axle weights, you would clearly see, the vehicles axles, and suspension is being OVER loaded.

Its what I did with my dually, went to a CAT scale to see REAL numbers


----------



## duramax plow

brianslawncare said:


> I just bought a 2012 dodge 2500 with a 8.5 western mvp v plow. It's sagging in the front and when the plow is in the v it will bump the ground on steep decilines.was thinking maybe add the timbren, or sumo springs? Any ideas if this will help? Looks like the timbren go where the bump stops are reducing sag.


When you go on the Western website., does it tell you the plow is too heavy for your truck?

All the other posters makes it like i'm talking crazy here.


----------



## seville009

brianslawncare said:


> I just bought a 2012 dodge 2500 with a 8.5 western mvp v plow. It's sagging in the front and when the plow is in the v it will bump the ground on steep decilines.was thinking maybe add the timbren, or sumo springs? Any ideas if this will help? Looks like the timbren go where the bump stops are reducing sag.


By the way, even with stronger springs, timbrens, or whatever, the plow tips will most likely still scrape in certain spots when just driving around. I just bump the plow up a bit towards scoop mode and then put it back into full v once I'm past it.


----------



## NYH1

duramax plow said:


> Can you show a picture or explain how a lever would change the weight from an Axle being overloaded on a scale?
> I'm genuinely curios


For a second time....












duramax plow said:


> *When you go on the Western website., does it tell you the plow is too heavy for your truck?*
> 
> All the other posters makes it like i'm talking crazy here.


No, it doesn't tell him it's too heavy for his truck, "_as long as the *REQUIRED AMOUNT* of ballast weight is used"_. Think "OUTSIDE" the axles. You're a certified rigger and loads are you're thing, in a word....scary! 

I'm out, NYH1.


----------



## seville009

NYH1 said:


> Your lift chain may have to much slack in it, just a thought.


Good point.

On my plow, with it sitting on the ground, I think I have about an inch or so of slack. You want just enough to let the plow dip a bit when plowing.


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> For a second time....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't tell him it's too heavy for his truck, "_as long as the *REQUIRED AMOUNT* of ballast weight is used"_. Think "OUTSIDE" the axles. You're a certified rigger and loads are you're thing, in a word....scary!
> 
> I'm out, NYH1.


Do I have to bet money, get a truck with a plow on it., weigh the axles, then add a ballast so you see how it works in real world numbers with shifting the center of gravity?

Your scary, a ballast does NOT subtract a huge amount of weight from the front., 
It adds weight to the back, and shifts the center of gravity closer towards the center of the 2 axles., you're still adding MORE WEIGHT using a ballast to shift the center of gravity,

I gave easy to understand examples, look at them


----------



## duramax plow

A truck has 2 fulcrums, not 1, the 1,000 pounds is still in the front, your pulling the back down with a 1,000 lbs ballast, does not take 500 pounds off the front axle.

It shifts the added weight overall closer to the center of the 2 axles of the track to help balance the load.
The weight is still on the AXLES.
LIKE I'M in the twilight zone.

Has anyone here been on a scale with and without loads???


----------



## brianslawncare

I tried western quick match. Can't make heads or tails out of it?


----------



## JustJeff

duramax plow said:


> Do I have to bet money, get a truck with a plow on it., weigh the axles, then add a ballast so you see how it works in real world numbers with shifting the center of gravity?
> 
> Your scary, a ballast does NOT subtract a huge amount of weight from the front.,
> It adds weight to the back, and shifts the center of gravity closer towards the center of the 2 axles., you're still adding MORE WEIGHT using a ballast to shift the center of gravity,
> 
> I gave easy to understand examples, look at them


So frigging what? Quit trying to change the Op's topic. He asked how to stop his blade from scraping. Quit trying to impress everybody with your (alleged) knowledge in rigging. We're tired of it already. And the bottom line is, even if adding weight to the rear doesn't take weight off the front axle, it will still raise the plow higher off of the ground. Gonna try disputing that as well?


----------



## duramax plow

JustJeff said:


> So frigging what? Quit trying to change the Op's topic. He asked how to stop his blade from scraping. Quit trying to impress everybody with your (alleged) knowledge in rigging. We're tired of it already. And the bottom line is, even if adding weight to the rear doesn't take weight off the front axle, it will still raise the plow higher off of the ground. Gonna try disputing that as well?


Well., more of., just trying to make sure fixing one problem does not lead to another, because adding air bags, or lift kit with a ballast., I'd hate to see a fellow plow driver, blowing out hub bearings., or any other suspension part. 
I've been their, and seen others do it as well. 
So just was trying to point out, if you have a plow that is a little to heavy for a truck, understand that the over loaded axle will still present itself down the line. 
My first truck i knew the plow was to big, and was upgrading to a dually the following year which I did., but in the middle of plow season, I had to rebuild the truck suspension my first year. Always good to understand just what we are doing when it comes to loads.

I've learned A LOT from this forum., don't mean to come off as a prick, just want us all to understand precisely what we are doing with these moving loads. Could be the difference in an insurance claim accident, if they determine the accident was due to overloading B.S. that some adjusters try and use.


----------



## jmh080630

Has no one other than me ever weighed there rig? Here's my weights. 1997 Dodge 2500 reg cab Cummins 12v, 8.5' mvp+.

Front axle weight with plow no salt
5200 lbs(rated for 4850)
Front axle with plow and full pallet of salt
4900 lbs

It's called ballast. It works like a see-saw. But this see-saw has two contact points in the middle, not one.

Sure I'm about 10,150+ going down the road on an 8800 pound gvwr, but front axle is only 50# over, and rear axle is rated at over 6000#. I still have 1k left on the rear axle.

Don't put a lift on the truck. When you drop your plow to actually use it you need the A-frame to be level with the ground to scrape nicely. A 3 inch lift keeps it from scraping when you drive, and it keeps it from doing a good job. Half a pallet of salt behind the rear axle is adequate to keep your plow from scraping, and it lets your V plow operate as intended. And gives your back end traction so you don't get stuck. Just crib it in place with an empty pallet between it and the cab so it doesn't slide forward when you stop.

I wouldn't use timbrens or sumos, I've heard they can crack your frame from bottoming out on potholes etc.


----------



## duramax plow

jmh080630 said:


> Has no one other than me ever weighed there rig? Here's my weights. 1997 Dodge 2500 reg cab Cummins 12v, 8.5' mvp+.
> 
> Front axle weight with plow no salt
> 5200 lbs(rated for 4850)
> Front axle with plow and full pallet of salt
> 4900 lbs
> 
> It's called ballast. It works like a see-saw. But this see-saw has two contact points in the middle, not one.
> 
> Sure I'm about 10,150+ going down the road on an 8800 pound gvwr, but front axle is only 50# over, and rear axle is rated at over 6000#. I still have 1k left on the rear axle.
> 
> Don't put a lift on the truck. When you drop your plow to actually use it you need the A-frame to be level with the ground to scrape nicely. A 3 inch lift keeps it from scraping when you drive, and it keeps it from doing a good job. Half a pallet of salt behind the rear axle is adequate to keep your plow from scraping, and it lets your V plow operate as intended. And gives your back end traction so you don't get stuck. Just crib it in place with an empty pallet between it and the cab so it doesn't slide forward when you stop.
> 
> I wouldn't use timbrens or sumos, I've heard they can crack your frame from bottoming out on potholes etc.


Nice, it helps you having a regular can over full size rear doors.

You have real numbers. Pretty much what I was saying, ballast helps, but your running at the max or over gvws, 
How's your front suspension held since you've been plowing?
Wish they made them with leaf springs in the front, or just a higher fawr


----------



## Mark Oomkes

It isn't ballast. You both need to look up the definition of ballast.


----------



## JustJeff

Mark Oomkes said:


> It isn't ballast. You both need to look up the definition of ballast.


Alex, what is "counterweight" for 300?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

P.S. The new guy said what I've been saying all along...pure and simple physics. Counterweight will decrease the load on the front axle.

And I don't need to be certified to know that. Just basic physics.


----------



## jmh080630

duramax plow said:


> Nice, it helps you having a regular can over full size rear doors.
> 
> You have real numbers. Pretty much what I was saying, ballast helps, but your running at the max or over gvws,
> How's your front suspension held since you've been plowing?
> Wish they made them with leaf springs in the front, or just a higher fawr


Go on Wikipedia. My Dana 60 front axle is rated for 6500 but tagged at 4850 for legal/safety factor reasons. Empty, my front end drops an inch when I pick up the plow. I've been plowing with this truck for about 4 years, this is my first year with the MVP+. Last few years have been with a unimount 8.5 straight blade with the ultramount adapter that holds the plow 6 inches further forward than it should be. (Which adds to effective plow weight on front axle)

Have had no front end issues other than what you would expect on a truck with 213,500+ miles. And the trans has never been rebuilt. It's been serviced (fluid and band adjustments) every 25k miles, and I've towed 10k lbs with no issues or slippage whatsoever.


----------



## duramax plow

jmh080630 said:


> Go on Wikipedia. My Dana 60 front axle is rated for 6500 but tagged at 4850 for legal/safety factor reasons. Empty, my front end drops an inch when I pick up the plow. I've been plowing with this truck for about 4 years, this is my first year with the MVP+. Last few years have been with a unimount 8.5 straight blade with the ultramount adapter that holds the plow 6 inches further forward than it should be. (Which adds to effective plow weight on front axle)
> 
> Have had no front end issues other than what you would expect on a truck with 213,500+ miles. And the trans has never been rebuilt. It's been serviced (fluid and band adjustments) every 25k miles, and I've towed 10k lbs with no issues or slippage whatsoever.


That's cool, I had an 04 Chevy dually, junk front end.

Dodge does seem to have a tough front end


----------



## jmh080630

brianslawncare said:


> I just bought a 2012 dodge 2500 with a 8.5 western mvp v plow. It's sagging in the front and when the plow is in the v it will bump the ground on steep decilines.was thinking maybe add the timbren, or sumo springs? Any ideas if this will help? Looks like the timbren go where the bump stops are reducing sag.


Back to OP, is it a gasser or a diesel? The diesel fawr should be 5500 in 2012, what's the gasser? The Western quick match allows a wide out on a gas version of my truck but not the diesel. (Cummins is at least 500# heavier than gasser, but actually has the balls to push a wide out)


----------



## OneBadDodge06

Timbrens didn't do anything for me, flattened like pancakes. I put 2" lift/plow coil springs up front. 1000# of ballast in the back didn't do nearly enough.


----------



## duramax plow

OneBadDodge06 said:


> Timbrens didn't do anything for me, flattened like pancakes. I put 2" lift/plow coil springs up front. 1000# of ballast in the back didn't do nearly enough.


Bigger truck?
You need something with a stronger front axle as I've been saying


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> Bigger truck?
> You need something with a stronger front axle as I've been saying


I've got a 2500 Cummings, aftermarket bumber and 1,000# Blizzard plow.

Airbags work great. Ebling 16' as a COUNTERWEIGHT.


----------



## NYH1

duramax plow said:


> Bigger truck?
> You need something with a stronger front axle as I've been saying


Ok, so clarify for us. What pickup truck is he going to get with a stronger axle then the AAM 9.25" that he has in his truck?

NYH1.


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> Ok, so clarify for us. What pickup truck is he going to get with a stronger axle then the AAM 9.25" that he has in his truck?
> 
> NYH1.


The only reliable way is for him to buy stronger suspension, simple as that. 
Factory trucks specs are junk for front Front GAWR period. That's the problem, and with Chevy being the worse out the 3. 
Truly, all the 1 Ton Front Gawr are pathetic, so rebuild the weak links to be stronger. 
So the AXLE itself is plenty capable, the Suspension is the main reason the front axle gross weight rating is low. That's the weak link.


----------



## NYH1

So now he doesn't need a stronger front axle as you said he did earlier? Gotcha! 

NYH1.


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> So now he doesn't need a stronger front axle as you said he did earlier? Gotcha!
> 
> NYH1.


yes, but you were being literal as in the actual axle, where as I the entire forum was and is referring to the weight transferred to the front axle for the Fgawr, which would include the suspension and wheels. Since I was replying from my phone earlier, I just said fornt axle.

So since you can't buy a front axle setup meaning the FGawr with a higher capacity other than the F-450, and other medium duty trucks, I stated, its more feasible to just rebuild his suspension with something stronger.

If he plans on adding a salt spreader, Get a Bigger TRUCK, then enhance that front suspension, that's what I did when I bought my 04 duramax.


----------



## NYH1

Say what you mean, not what's more convenient. 

Have you figured out how ballast weight with two fulcrum points works yet? 

NYH1.


----------



## JustJeff

duramax plow said:


> yes, but you were being literal as in the actual axle, where as I the entire forum was and is referring to the weight transferred to the front axle for the Fgawr, which would include the suspension and wheels. Since I was replying from my phone earlier, I just said fornt axle.
> 
> So since you can't buy a front axle setup meaning the FGawr with a higher capacity other than the F-450, and other medium duty trucks, I stated, its more feasible to just rebuild his suspension with something stronger.
> 
> If he plans on adding a salt spreader, Get a Bigger TRUCK, then enhance that suspension, that's what I did when I bought my 04 duramax.


So, first you say the axles aren't adequate, then someone calls you on it, and you say you were actually referring to the suspension. That's what most of us have been saying since the first page of this thread. Air bags address the suspension issue, and yet you continue to ramble on about other crap. And by the way, I've never seen "Fgawr" on a door sticker.


----------



## duramax plow

JustJeff said:


> So, first you say the axles aren't adequate, then someone calls you on it, and you say you were actually referring to the suspension. That's what most of us have been saying since the first page of this thread. Air bags address the suspension issue, and yet you continue to ramble on about other crap. And by the way, I've never seen "Fgawr" on a door sticker.


First page the first thing I addressed to the OP was his suspension, 
When we talked about front axles, my mindset is referring to you weighing your front axles on a scale, compared to the Fgawr, if you ever get pulled over, and the weigh your vehicle, you can be under your GVW, and get a ticket for 1 of your axles being over loaded.

I should have clarified more I was talking front axle weight rating, and not literally the front axle that the wheels are mounted to. I thought you understood that when I mentioned the scales
Furthermore, I explained with 2 fulcrums, if your over your front axle weight rating by a lot, a ballast will not help, as the other guy mention, it reduced it by shifting the center of gravity back towards the rear, but he was still Over the front axle weight rating. 
The best front suspensions I've seen are all aftermarket modifications.


----------



## duramax plow

Now the point of me being technical about Fgawr and such, is if you were ever involved in a serious auto accident, your insurance carrier will try an use that to determine negligence to deny your claim. 

Or if someone dies, it could be used against you., unsafely modified vehicle against the manufacturers safety ratings. 

It's not pretty when you are in a lawsuit


----------



## JustJeff

You really love to hear you own voice, or in this case, see your own typed words.


----------



## duramax plow

JustJeff said:


> You really love to hear you own voice, or in this case, see your own typed words.


The fact remains, have your vehicle over loaded, and you opened yourself up for a lawsuit, if something were to happen.

Most plow, salt spreader setups are OVERLOADED. But when it's a lawsuit, you will lose big time


----------



## JustJeff

Double post.


----------



## duramax plow

JustJeff said:


> Double post.


Surely i'm just glad most have been fortunate to not have a major accident (i have not) but that becomes a focal point when one of your plow trucks seriously injure someone and you maybe at fault.

The lawyers once to see how to blame the driver, and your own insurance company will want to see if your negligent in one way of getting out of paying you would be to prove you over loaded your vehicle, and say that's what led to the crash.

But other than all of that, carry on. 
Get air bags, and that shall surely fix the sagg


----------



## JustJeff

Ya, so we should all just go buy F-650s and municipal dumps in that case. Because that's about the only way you're going to be "legal" with most of today's plows.


----------



## duramax plow

JustJeff said:


> Ya, so we should all just go buy F-650s and municipal dumps in that case. Because that's about the only way you're going to be "legal" with most of today's plows.


Its not the only way, You can get you vehicle modified and legally change the gross weight ratings., its what i've done. 
This is probably my last year plowing though., Manufacturers come up with these design flaws on purpose to pend the liability on us. 
I suggested at the least, to modify the weak links to make is stronger so their is less likely scenario for failure.

Funny thing is, I did do what you said, i purchased an 2000 GMC 8500 at an auction 2 years back because of being over weight in the 1 ton dually. 
But, I'm done with the plowing, TOO much OVER head to be legal and safe. Well, as a business owner. Better as a Plow only sub


----------



## John_DeereGreen

I feel dumber after reading this disaster...

Jeff hit the nail on the head. Asking what time it is, and being told how to build a clock.


----------



## NYH1

Nope, still hasn't figured out how ballast weight with two fulcrum points works yet.  

NYH1.


----------



## JustJeff

duramax plow said:


> TOO much OVER head to be legal and safe. Well, as a business owner. Better as a Plow only sub


As a sub, you are still a business, and equally liable/responsible for every DOT law there is. Being a sub-contractor absolves you of ZERO liability. I think you should be done plowing too. Just go back to rigging full-time, and we'll all be happier.


----------



## duramax plow

John_DeereGreen said:


> I feel dumber after reading this disaster...
> 
> Jeff hit the nail on the head. Asking what time it is, and being told how to build a clock.


How, discussion on Load
Post 42 i said the truck has 2 fulcrums, not 1, being overloaded on scale front axles by a lot will still have the problem with the ballast.

Post 46:
"Sure I'm about 10,150+ going down the road on an 8800 pound gvwr, but front axle is only 50# over, and rear axle is rated at over 6000#. I still have 1k left on the rear axle."

I explained I was referring to the front axle weight rating, and not the axle itself, So the axle being rated at 6K, but the rating limited by the suspension at 5K, we can see the O.P. would regardless need a stronger Suspension, which was my original reply.

We always want to know what causes OUR failure/breakdown. 
So adding ballast does shift the center of gravity towards the rear axle, but your front suspension is still ready to fail when you need it most, out plowing,


----------



## duramax plow

JustJeff said:


> As a sub, you are still a business, and equally liable/responsible for every DOT law there is. Being a sub-contractor absolves you of ZERO liability. I think you should be done plowing too. Just go back to rigging full-time, and we'll all be happier.


I'm not a rigger full time, but more or less, I meant as a Sub it's less overhead. , If i was plowing only, and did not need to salt, I can use a lighter plow, and choose to get paid by the hour., and not have to worry about clients paying the bill, storing salt., salt spreader weight + plow weight etc.

You seem upset, They key for new comers is to hear from experience people in the business the Pro's and The CONS. 
To minimize the risks if possible, when your plowing and you have a breakdown, no one is happy except maybe the tow truck driver.


----------



## JustJeff

duramax plow said:


> I can use a lighter plow, salt spreader weight + plow weight etc.
> 
> You seem upset,


Frustrated, yes. I get tired of dealing with 50 post Einsteins who think they know it all. Tell me, why would you use a lighter plow if you were a sub? What does one have to do with the other? And why would you no longer worry about salt spreader weight and plow weight?


----------



## duramax plow

JustJeff said:


> Frustrated, yes. I get tired of dealing with 50 post Einsteins who think they know it all. Tell me, why would you use a lighter plow if you were a sub? What does one have to do with the other? And why would you no longer worry about salt spreader weight and plow weight?


If Im just plowing only, I would use a midweight western plow, I would not have to worry about salting if I'm just plowing @75 per hour. 
Midweight western plow less than 600 lbs. Less weight= less wear an tear. 
Right now I have 2 2015 f250's on a lease, and my 00 gmc 8500 dump truck.
But I would not need to run 
The 2 f250's both will need the front suspension redone, potholes in philly, while being loaded to the max, =$$$ spent.

As a plow only Sub, My main concern would be to still use my truck after plow season.


----------



## duramax plow

duramax plow said:


> If Im just plowing only, I would use a midweight western plow, I would not have to worry about salting if I'm just plowing @75 per hour.
> Midweight western plow less than 600 lbs. Less weight= less wear an tear.
> Right now I have 2 2015 f250's on a lease, and my 00 gmc 8500 dump truck.
> But I would not need to run
> The 2 f250's both will need the front suspension redone, potholes in philly, while being loaded to the max, =$$$ spent.
> 
> As a plow only Sub, My main concern would be to still use my truck after plow season.


Just to clarify, the 2 leased trucks comes with the plows, an 1 comes with the salt spreader., 
So short of outright abuse, i'm not responsible for the repairs. I just had to replace 1 tire that caught a flat. that's it. 
Having workers comp insurance, payroll taxes, LARGE GL, Multiple vehicles with commercial insurance, I can significantly lower my OVER HEAD., let alone multiple wear and tear.

So a lighter plow, and no salting, I'll take it


----------



## FredG

duramax plow said:


> Do I need to go to Cat scale to show you that adding a Ballast does NOT make the weight on the front axle lighter enough? To bring the Faw to not being overloaded
> Just example fawr 4,500lbs. rawr 7,500 lbs
> Ex.
> FAW: 4,000 lbs
> RAW:4,000 lbs
> Add 1,000 lbs plow
> Faw 4,800 lbs
> Raw 4,200 lbs
> 500 pound ballast
> Faw 4,750
> Raw 4,750
> 
> You would still be overloaded., about time you balance out the load of a plow overloading tour Front axles., you will overload the rear axles


Wow how did I miss this. Technically you could be right scientifically. I'm probably not smart enough to figure it out nor do I really care. Typically a plowman will put the weight on the tailgate to prevent scraping. Yes Timbrens, Air bags, Lift kit, levelers will help with the issue.

I'm sure I'm overloaded every time I go out even with the excavator. For get the scientific stuff for now anyways. When I have my small 10K pd excavator on my trailer on my 3/4 duramax if I put the machine up front of trailer it will sag so bad I probably would not get a mile without being pulled over for the fact I don't look safe.

If I put all the weight on the rear of the trailer just above the dovetail it looks safe and have no issues. I bought the excavator in Pa at a case dealer down by you. Towed it all the way back to NY with no issues by state police and everything. Yes I know I'm over weight the trailer is 5600 LBS by it's self.

The Op was just looking for away to prevent the sag and look safe, Some think timbrens stink, Some think air bags stink etc. but they will all help with the issue. Think of a teeter taughter effect, I'm 250 if your 200 your going to need 50#s to be level. Around here you need to look safe and have your DOT#s very visible in the pickups towing. The big loads are a whole other story.


----------



## duramax plow

FredG said:


> Wow how did I miss this. Technically you could be right scientifically. I'm probably not smart enough to figure it out nor do I really care. Typically a plowman will put the weight on the tailgate to prevent scraping. Yes Timbrens, Air bags, Lift kit, levelers will help with the issue.
> 
> I'm sure I'm overloaded every time I go out even with the excavator. For get the scientific stuff for now anyways. When I have my small 10K pd excavator on my trailer on my 3/4 duramax if I put the machine up front of trailer it will sag so bad I probably would not get a mile without being pulled over for the fact I don't look safe.
> 
> If I put all the weight on the rear of the trailer just above the dovetail it looks safe and have no issues. I bought the excavator in Pa at a case dealer down by you. Towed it all the way back to NY with no issues by state police and everything. Yes I know I'm over weight the trailer is 5600 LBS by it's self.
> 
> The Op was just looking for away to prevent the sag and look safe, Some think timbrens stink, Some think air bags stink etc. but they will all help with the issue. Think of a teeter taughter effect, I'm 250 if your 200 your going to need 50#s to be level. Around here you need to look safe and have your DOT#s very visible in the pickups towing. The big loads are a whole other story.


Yeah, funny thing is i did the same exact thing last month with a 3/4 ton f250, trailer and excavator, just to show the importance of centering the load. Moving it around on the trailer to show the tongue weight increasing and decreasing, and the effects of the load position. 
Different areas, DOT officers look for some things, while others, will wait for you to pull out the salt supply yard, pull you over, fine you and the person who loaded you up. 
It always depends on the officer. 
Yeah, look was most of the time will get us by, as we all been overloaded.
Just be safe,
When I was younger, GVW, Axle ratings, never understood it, and a lot of people today give wrong advice, but overall, this plowsite forum is one of the most helpful ones that's for sure.


----------



## FredG

duramax plow said:


> Yeah, funny thing is i did the same exact thing last month with a 3/4 ton f250, trailer and excavator, just to show the importance of centering the load. Moving it around on the trailer to show the tongue weight increasing and decreasing, and the effects of the load position.
> Different areas, DOT officers look for some things, while others, will wait for you to pull out the salt supply yard, pull you over, fine you and the person who loaded you up.
> It always depends on the officer.
> Yeah, look was most of the time will get us by, as we all been overloaded.
> Just be safe,
> When I was younger, GVW, Axle ratings, never understood it, and a lot of people today give wrong advice, but overall, this plowsite forum is one of the most helpful ones that's for sure.


Yes when I go to the gravel pit you have to be weighed in and out, If the operator loaded you heavy your dumping some you have to give them a copy of your reggy, They won't let you leave they don't want the fine and neither do I. That's a whole another story with the big trucks and loads.


----------



## duramax plow

Yeah, sometimes we can learn the hard way when we drive to other states. Their police see the outer town plates, and use the full extent of the law, using your door stickers and registration. 

Whichever results in the highest ticket amount. 
New York is ROUGH for transportation in general. I try and avoid driving their at all cost.

Some areas are strict with width of the plows you have on the truck, or the time that your plowing.... 
But, next month, I will be listing my plow items for sale more likely, and probably my dump truck as well.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

OK, let's get a couple things straight once and for all. Half of this discussion is stupid since we can't change the laws of physics.

Definition of ballast:

_bal·last
ˈbaləst/
noun
noun: *ballast*; plural noun: *ballasts*_

_*1*. 
heavy material, such as gravel, sand, iron, or lead, placed low in a vessel to improve its stability._
_heavy material carried in an airship or on a hot-air balloon to stabilize it, and jettisoned when greater altitude is required._
_something that gives stability or substance.
"the film is an entertaining comedy with some serious ideas thrown in for ballast"_

_*2*. 
gravel or coarse stone used to form the bed of a railroad track or road._
_a mixture of coarse and fine aggregate for making concrete._

_*3*. 
a passive component used in an electric circuit to moderate changes in current._
_verb
verb: *ballast*; 3rd person present: *ballasts*; past tense: *ballasted*; past participle: *ballasted*; gerund or present participle: *ballasting*_

_*1*. 
give stability to (a ship) by putting a heavy substance in its bilge.
"the vessel has been ballasted to give the necessary floating stability"_
Definition of counterweight (or counterbalance):

_coun·ter·bal·ance
noun
noun: *counterbalance*; plural noun: *counterbalances*; noun: *counter-balance*; plural noun: *counter-balances*
ˈkoun(t)ərˌbaləns/
*1*. 
a weight that balances another weight.
a factor having the opposite effect to that of another and so preventing it from exercising a disproportionate influence.



jmh080630 said:



Has no one other than me ever weighed there rig? Here's my weights. 1997 Dodge 2500 reg cab Cummins 12v, 8.5' mvp+.

Front axle weight with plow no salt
5200 lbs(rated for 4850)
Front axle with plow and full pallet of salt
4900 lbs

It's called ballast. It works like a see-saw. But this see-saw has two contact points in the middle, not one.

Click to expand...

_
So despite @duramax plow protestations, @jmh080630 has proven that whether a vehicle has one or two fulcrums, COUNTERWEIGHT WILL reduce the weight of the front axle. Because it is BASIC PHYSICS. And since we can't change the laws of physics, it works the same way every time.

If one's front axle is overloaded, using counterweight--which is weight placed behind the rear axle--the weight on the front axle WILL be reduced. There is no denying this, whether you're Einstein or a "certified" rigger, physics works the same way every time. Using more weight behind one or two fulcrums WILL reduce the weight on the opposite side of the one or two fulcrums. This has been proved by actual weight slips.

Back to your regularly scheduled argument about whether OEM axles and suspensions are built heavy enough to handle plow weight. (They are, I have 84,000 miles on my Cummings, aftermarket bumber, 1,000# plow and no front end issues). Same goes for my older F350s that have been running the same plows.


----------



## duramax plow

Yes, simple, so we're not going back in forth saying similar things, this what i said on the 2nd page early in the forum

"What we're talking about is a stationary plow that overloads the front axle., and shifts weight OFF the rear wheels making the center of gravity shift too far on the front axle.
Adding a ballast at that point helps with stability by shifting the center of gravity back between the center of the 2 axles."

If you got 84K out of your truck, thats great on the suspension,
the 2 2015 trucks I have right now with 8' straight plow shocks didn't make it through the season with a strong ballast.
What ever limits the front axle weight rating, can be different, can be the tires, the rims, the brakes, the shocks, or a control arm, could be the HUB bearings, I would be guessing, different reasons for the Big 3. 

Just as long as none of us do it to the point we cause an accident cool. 
If the vehicles are overloaded, WE ALL AGREE, try and keep the load BALANCED so its the most stable.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> Yes, simple, so we're not going back in forth saying similar things, this what i said on the 2nd page early in the forum
> 
> "What we're talking about is a stationary plow that overloads the front axle., and shifts weight OFF the rear wheels making the center of gravity shift too far on the front axle.
> Adding a ballast at that point helps with stability by shifting the center of gravity back between the center of the 2 axles."
> 
> If you got 84K out of your truck, thats great on the suspension,
> the 2 2015 trucks I have right now with 8' straight plow shocks didn't make it through the season with a strong ballast.
> What ever limits the front axle weight rating, can be different, can be the tires, the rims, the brakes, the shocks, or a control arm, could be the HUB bearings, I would be guessing, different reasons for the Big 3.
> 
> Just as long as none of us do it to the point we cause an accident cool.
> If the vehicles are overloaded, WE ALL AGREE, try and keep the load BALANCED so its the most stable.


We will never agree until you grasp basic physics. Counterweight WILL remove weight from the front axle. Ballast will not.


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> We will never agree until you grasp basic physics AND THE DEFINITION OF BALLAST.


Yes, forgive me for explain the details of what happens with using a ballast on an object with 2 fulcrums, and not 1. 
It should be pointed out that its not a 1-1 ratio. That's my point. 
If your front axle weight is 100 pounds over the limit, adding an 100 pound ballast at the tailgate won't fix it. Because there is 2 fulcrums and not one. 
I very well understand the point, and purpose of a ballast.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

No you don't, because weight against the tailgate ISN'T BALLAST.

Besides, you stayed several times already that you can't remove weight from the front axle by using counterweight and now you are.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Did anyone ever say it's a 1-1 ratio when counterweight is added?


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> No you don't, because weight against the tailgate ISN'T BALLAST.
> 
> Besides, you stayed several times already that you can't remove weight from the front axle by using counterweight and now you are.


If the tail gate is close, that's the farthest back you can place the weight in the bed of the truck. 
I repeatedly said if your significantly overloaded on the front axle weight, no ballast is going to fix that. This issue is not to get to reduce part of the weight, when you will still be overloaded. But whatever,

The guy who said he weight his vehicle stated, after he used a ballast, it lowered the weight on the front axles on the scales, but he was still over weight by 50 lbs, but was over his GVW over 1,000 pounds due to the ballast.

Just don't use the same logic if you have to enter a DOT scale and you'll be fine. Because in some areas, cops are pricks, and pull people over after they leave a landscape supply yard, and will try and bang you for anything being over weight,
Whether its your Front AXLE weight, Rear AXLE weight, or overall,Gross vehicle weight.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

John_DeereGreen said:


> Did anyone ever say it's a 1-1 ratio when counterweight is added?


No, but it was stated several times that levers don't work.


----------



## duramax plow

John_DeereGreen said:


> Did anyone ever say it's a 1-1 ratio when counterweight is added?


My point was always the same, if your severely over weight, the ballast won't change you being over weight, without being over weight overall.

If that's the case, it would be better to get a lighter load, or fix the weak point. but what ever.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> My point was always the same, if your severely over weight, the ballast won't change you being over weight, without being over weight overall.
> 
> If that's the case, it would be better to get a lighter load, or fix the weak point. but what ever.


No one but you said severely overweight just like no one said 1:1.


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> No one but you said severely overweight just like no one said 1:1.


The Fact that the manufacture design these 3/4 and 1 tin truck with such a weak front end payload is the problem
The fact they need to be modified to safely add a plow is a problem. 
When you add 2,500 pounds in the back of a dually, we shouldn't have to add helper springs(we don't have to)., 
We shouldn't have to use physics to compensate for design flaws for the past 10 + years. 
That's my biggest issue, design flaws on purpose, the sell plow prep packages, and yet, a decent commercial grade plow will still have you at the limit or overloaded with the plow on it. 3/4 and 1 ton trucks are suppose to be for commercial duty.

It's like when I see 3-5 yard steel dump bodies on F350, your already near your GVW limit from the body alone. So you can't really fill it with typical jobsite material.


----------



## duramax plow

I'd just rather see better truck components, Since 2000, FGAWR barely changed, the rear payload increased, but not the front. Thats the Big 3 i'm referring to. 
Ford from the F250- the F650, front end PAYLOAD barely increases.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> The fact they need to be modified to safely add a plow is a problem.


They don't.


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> They don't.


So what is the point of this thread, and adding airbags to his 2012 ram 2500?
4th comment in I suggested adding timbrens, and asked was he using a ballast already. I'm pretty sure, his truck stock we can haul 3/4 Ton with no mods or issues of sagging.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

duramax plow said:


> My point was always the same, if your severely over weight, the ballast won't change you being over weight, without being over weight overall.
> 
> If that's the case, it would be better to get a lighter load, or fix the weak point. but what ever.


Define "severely overweight" please.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

duramax plow said:


> So what is the point of this thread, and adding airbags to his 2012 ram 2500?
> 4th comment in I suggested adding timbrens, and asked was he using a ballast already. I'm pretty sure, his truck stock we can haul 3/4 Ton with no mods or issues of sagging.


Timbrens...airbags...springs...nothing changes the legal maximum weight unless an upfitter certifies it as such.


----------



## duramax plow

John_DeereGreen said:


> Timbrens...airbags...springs...nothing changes the legal maximum weight unless an upfitter certifies it as such.


Correct, that's exactly what I done to my dually, had an upfitter modify it, and had it recertified, same with my 2000 GMC 8500 Dump truck.

But that's what i'm referring to, that legal maximum weight on the front end, would be nice if they made a real plow truck version of their trucks setup just for us, with beefier components, from the factory, you know, like ordering a mason body and such.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

So back on page 1 you're recommending a lift kit...which does absolutely ZERO, ZIP, NADA to increase payload, help carry the weight or remove weight from the front axle.



duramax plow said:


> a 3 inch lift kit is about $400.00 for your truck., that would be the option I go for.


I stated Timbrens suck, use COUNTERWEIGHT and air bags. Because COUNTERWEIGHT will remove weight from the front axle (due to basic physics...levers). Airbags help carry the weight. Lift kit would have raised it 3" then it would sag and he would potentially still be overweight and not carrying the weight any better.

You said:



duramax plow said:


> Well if you're over the capacity of the front axles., Nothing will fix that except., reducing the weight of the front capacity.


I axed if you were sure, then you axed:

If you are overloading your AXLES., what would change that? All the weight are being transferred from the vehicle>suspension>Axles>Tires.[/QUOTE]



duramax plow said:


> Yes., Now If you have say., a plow that's Too heavy for a trucks front AXLE, how will you fix that., without getting a lighter plow?
> We are NOT talking about SAG here. But being OVER LOADED.
> Explain that please?


As an aside...we don't know for a fact if the OP was truly overweight, he was asking how to keep his tips from dragging.

I asked several times if you had ever taken a physics class, you never answered, you just insisted that there is no way in God's green earth you can remove weight from the front axle using the principles of physics, i.e. levers.

You then replied:



duramax plow said:


> I'm also a certified RIGGER., Loads, that's my thing., properly loading a vehicle., and rigging irregular shaped objects properly., I know how to do, and calculate the CENTER of gravity.
> Nevertheless., I'm open to something new.


NYH 1 replied:



NYH1 said:


> By adding weight BEHIND the rear wheels it most certainly takes a load off of the front axle. Both of your axles are fulcrum points. By adding weight it shifts the weight distribution on those fulcrum points, adding to one while taking it off the other. It's basic leverage....and in every plow owners manual.
> 
> NYH1.


You then came back with the following which is a ton of assuming, not based on facts:



duramax plow said:


> That's is wrong, you're confusing 2 different things.
> If you load 3,000 pounds box in a pickup bed behind the rear wheels of a 2015 f250 your UNDER gvw, but your overloading your rear axles. So you move it towards the glass to shift the center of gravity between the 2 axles., something like a 70-30 split of weight.
> 
> What we're talking about is a stationary plow that overloads the front axle., and shifts weight OFF the rear wheels making the center of gravity shift too far on the front axle.
> Adding a ballast at that point helps with stability by shifting the center of gravity back between the center of the 2 axles.
> 
> The front axles is still OVERLOADED


How do you know adding 3000# of COUNTERWEIGHT will overload the rear axle? Unless you have the actual weight of the front plow and truck and GVWR of the truck?

Besides do you need to add 3000# to remove enough weight from the front axle to not overload it?

At this point, I bowed out of the thread because you were assuming too much and were not understanding physics\levers. There were some diagrams posted and you kept insisting you can't remove weight off the front end. Even though the diagram proved you wrong.

jmh jumped in with actual numbers:



jmh080630 said:


> Has no one other than me ever weighed there rig? Here's my weights. 1997 Dodge 2500 reg cab Cummins 12v, 8.5' mvp+.
> 
> Front axle weight with plow no salt
> 5200 lbs(rated for 4850)
> Front axle with plow and full pallet of salt
> 4900 lbs
> 
> It's called ballast. It works like a see-saw. But this see-saw has two contact points in the middle, not one.
> 
> Sure I'm about 10,150+ going down the road on an 8800 pound gvwr, but front axle is only 50# over, and rear axle is rated at over 6000#. I still have 1k left on the rear axle.
> 
> Don't put a lift on the truck. When you drop your plow to actually use it you need the A-frame to be level with the ground to scrape nicely. A 3 inch lift keeps it from scraping when you drive, and it keeps it from doing a good job. Half a pallet of salt behind the rear axle is adequate to keep your plow from scraping, and it lets your V plow operate as intended. And gives your back end traction so you don't get stuck. Just crib it in place with an empty pallet between it and the cab so it doesn't slide forward when you stop.
> 
> I wouldn't use timbrens or sumos, I've heard they can crack your frame from bottoming out on potholes etc.


And you changed your stance:



duramax plow said:


> Nice, it helps you having a regular can over full size rear doors.
> 
> You have real numbers. Pretty much what I was saying, ballast helps, but your running at the max or over gvws,
> How's your front suspension held since you've been plowing?
> Wish they made them with leaf springs in the front, or just a higher fawr


Then the whole clusterfoxtrot about you changing between axles and suspension started. In which you changed your story yet again. You've also stated that just using ballast can change the center of gravity which means if I place weight above my rear axle and the weight changes, when I place it BEHIND my rear axle it will change even more.

Then you started with being very overweight and 1:1 and blah, blah, blah.

You've been wrong in this thread at least twice. You've changed your story at least twice. My first post told the OP to use counterweight first (which you now admit will remove weight off the front axle) and then airbags. You stated a lift kit which doesn't change anything regarding axle weight rating, suspension rating or removing weight oof the front axle, it just raises the truck 3". Basically, he asked what color the sky is and you answered "the moon".

The majority of this thread is a huuuuuge waste of monitor ink because you denied physics, changed your story a couple times and would never admit you were wrong.


----------



## NYH1




----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> Correct, that's exactly what I done to my dually, had an upfitter modify it, and had it recertified, same with my 2000 GMC 8500 Dump truck.
> 
> But that's what i'm referring to, that legal maximum weight on the front end, would be nice if they made a real plow truck version of their trucks setup just for us, with beefier components, from the factory, you know, like ordering a mason body and such.


But they don't so who freaking cares, this doesn't solve the OP's problem.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> So what is the point of this thread, and adding airbags to his 2012 ram 2500?
> 4th comment in I suggested adding timbrens, and asked was he using a ballast already. I'm pretty sure, his truck stock we can haul 3/4 Ton with no mods or issues of sagging.


Your first recommendation was a lift kit which, as I stated, does nothing.

Besides, Timbrens suck. I know, I've used them on several trucks. Airbags are a far better investment.


----------



## On a Call

Mark Oomkes said:


> Besides, Timbrens suck. I know, I've used them on several trucks. Airbags are a far better investment.


How are airbags better ??


----------



## FredG

John_DeereGreen said:


> Timbrens...airbags...springs...nothing changes the legal maximum weight unless an upfitter certifies it as such.


This is correct, In NY once it is upfitted You have to have a inspection from the state. I'm thinking just to make sure the upgrades are done. My 08 F-350 I put the suspension out of a F-550. I never had it approved but it sure makes me look safe and handles the spreader and occasional trailer on it.

It's a gas when hauling on highway it could be embarrassing. Around town where speed limits are 30 - 35 MPH it's okay. I'm still overloaded but looks safe and no one bothers me.


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> Your first recommendation was a lift kit which, as I stated, does nothing.
> 
> Besides, Timbrens suck. I know, I've used them on several trucks. Airbags are a far better investment.


Given the fact I don't know if he has a diesel, 4 door and 4x4, with a ballast, how would we properly know oone of the biggest factors, if he is to heavy already. Timbrens, help with sag, it won't fix your suspension nose diving. 
The OP been silent on a few details. Stronger coils, air shocks, air bags, that's all to do with budget. 
We don't know his budget, his specific truck, and other important details.


----------



## duramax plow




----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> If the tail gate is close, that's the farthest back you can place the weight in the bed of the truck.


Yes, if you're just using weight in the bed. I happen to use an Ebling back plow, it's 4 feet behind the bumper. And I'm not overweight overall, either.

But you're finally admitting you were wrong about counterweight.



duramax plow said:


> I repeatedly said if your significantly overloaded on the front axle weight, no ballast is going to fix that.


But we don't know that it's "significantly" overloaded...you're assuming facts not in evidence.

You are right about ballast not fixing it, because you need COUNTERWEIGHT, not ballast. There's a difference.



duramax plow said:


> The guy who said he weight his vehicle stated, after he used a ballast, it lowered the weight on the front axles on the scales, but he was still over weight by 50 lbs, but was over his GVW over 1,000 pounds due to the ballast.


IT ISN'T BALLAST.

That's fine, but the point has been made is that COUNTERWEIGHT will reduce the weight on the front axle.

And the OP has a 2012, not a '97. My '14 2500 has the same GVWR as my '02 F350. We aren't comparing apples to apples.


----------



## duramax plow

On a Call said:


> How are airbags better ??


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> Given the fact I don't know if he has a diesel, 4 door and 4x4, with a ballast, how would we properly know oone of the biggest factors, if he is to heavy already. Timbrens, help with sag, it won't fix your suspension nose diving.
> The OP been silent on a few details. Stronger coils, air shocks, air bags, that's all to do with budget.
> We don't know his budget, his specific truck, and other important details.


You seem to know, because of all the assumptions you've made about being "significantly" overweight on the front axle and being overweight overall on the entire truck.


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes, if you're just using weight in the bed. I happen to use an Ebling back plow, it's 4 feet behind the bumper. And I'm not overweight overall, either.
> 
> But you're finally admitting you were wrong about counterweight.
> 
> But we don't know that it's "significantly" overloaded...you're assuming facts not in evidence.
> 
> You are right about ballast not fixing it, because you need COUNTERWEIGHT, not ballast. There's a difference.
> 
> IT ISN'T BALLAST.
> 
> That's fine, but the point has been made is that COUNTERWEIGHT will reduce the weight on the front axle.
> 
> And the OP has a 2012, not a '97. My '14 2500 has the same GVWR as my '02 F350. We aren't comparing apples to apples.


What's the Fgawr of your 2 trucks?


----------



## duramax plow

I assumed his truck was overweight because of the sagging issue., and given the range of payload on his front end, how far the plow hangs in front of your wheels is a factor as well


----------



## Mark Oomkes

On a Call said:


> How are airbags better ??


Timbrens only replace the OEM bumpstops with taller, harder bumpstops. When you hit a pothole, and the weight of the plow makes the frame rest on the Timbren or close to it, that energy from the pothole or bump has very little other place to go...so it is transferred to the frame.

They do not lift the front or rear of a truck either. They just sit there until the springs compress and there is no more room to compress and the energy transfers to a different component. And in my experience, the component (frame) fails.

Airbags will actually raise the front or rear of the truck. They don't allow the springs to compress as much as would without them. And due to the fact that air can be compressed, when you hit a pothole or bump, the airbags compress which reduces the energy being transferred to the other components of the truck. Basically, it's an additional shock absorber. But a shock absorber that carries weight.

No, it doesn't change the legal capacity of your front or rear axle, but it does change the ability to carry the weight better.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> What's the Fgawr of your 2 trucks?


No idea on the 350, it's oot on a job.

My 2500 has a 6,000# FAWR, 6,500# on the rear but the GVWR is only 10k.


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> Timbrens only replace the OEM bumpstops with taller, harder bumpstops. When you hit a pothole, and the weight of the plow makes the frame rest on the Timbren or close to it, that energy from the pothole or bump has very little other place to go...so it is transferred to the frame.
> 
> They do not lift the front or rear of a truck either. They just sit there until the springs compress and there is no more room to compress and the energy transfers to a different component. And in my experience, the component (frame) fails.
> 
> Airbags will actually raise the front or rear of the truck. They don't allow the springs to compress as much as would without them. And due to the fact that air can be compressed, when you hit a pothole or bump, the airbags compress which reduces the energy being transferred to the other components of the truck. Basically, it's an additional shock absorber. But a shock absorber that carries weight.
> 
> No, it doesn't change the legal capacity of your front or rear axle, but it does change the ability to carry the weight better.


One thing I saw that I would use is those air shocks, the weak suspension is still an issue with airbags, for dodge, u can get stronger springs, and raise it a little. 
I'd rather they just put leaf springs in the front


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> No idea on the 350, it's oot on a job.
> 
> My 2500 has a 6,000# FAWR, 6,500# on the rear but the GVWR is only 10k.


The 2015 f250 I'm sitting in now has a front Fgawr of 4400# my 04 1 ton dually was like 4800# but the front weighed 4300#


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> One thing I saw that I would use is those air shocks, the weak suspension is still an issue with airbags, for dodge, u can get stronger springs, and raise it a little.
> I'd rather they just put leaf springs in the front


Air shocks don't help supplement weigh carrying like airbags do. Another waste of money.

We put heavier springs in my '16 2500, it rides horrible. The lighter ones will be going back in so it will stay in a straight line.

You wish in one hand and crap in the other, only one will be full.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> The 2015 f250 I'm sitting in now has a front Fgawr of 4400# my 04 1 ton dually was like 4800# but the front weighed 4300#


This is why several of us were giving helpful advice regarding airbags and COUNTERWEIGHT, not wishing this would happen or that would happen or trying to deny the laws of physics.


----------



## NYH1

duramax plow said:


> The 2015 f250 I'm sitting in now has a front Fgawr of 4400# my 04 1 ton dually was like 4800# but the front weighed 4300#


That's it?

NYH1.


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> That's it?
> 
> NYH1.


Yes, crazy right, chevy is has idependant front suspension., but even the new ones has a small payload.

This f250 I'm in is single cab gas.
4400# not sure what it weighs, but I has to be overloaded from the plow., shocks is gone after 1 season


----------



## NYH1

My '15 reg cab Ram 2500 has a FGAWR 5500, RGAWR 6500, GVWR 10,000, payload 3600. 

NYH1.


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> My '15 reg cab Ram 2500 has a FGAWR 5500, RGAWR 6500, GVWR 10,000, payload 3600.
> 
> NYH1.


Diesel or gas?
Dodge has the highest FGAWR I've seen. 
The medium and heavy duty trucks use leaf springs, rides harsh but wish it was an option for the 1 tons


----------



## NYH1

duramax plow said:


> Diesel or gas?
> Dodge has the highest FGAWR I've seen.
> The medium and heavy duty trucks use leaf springs, rides harsh but wish it was an option for the 1 tons


It's in my sig. 6.4L Hemi. My plow and mount weigh about 960 lbs. My front end drops an inch or so when I lift the plow. I do have Timbrens. Had them put in when the plow was put on so I've never used the plow without them.

NYH1.


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> It's in my sig. 6.4L Hemi. My plow and mount weigh about 960 lbs. My front end drops an inch or so when I lift the plow. I do have Timbrens. Had them put in when the plow was put on so I've never used the plow without them.
> 
> NYH1.


That's a heavy plow, how many miles on ur plow, did you need to repair or replace any of your front end?
Because a Chevy 2500 would've been toast with that plow :laugh:


----------



## FredG

NYH1 said:


> It's in my sig. 6.4L Hemi. My plow and mount weigh about 960 lbs. My front end drops an inch or so when I lift the plow. I do have Timbrens. Had them put in when the plow was put on so I've never used the plow without them.
> 
> NYH1.


I had a Hemi in my 03 Mopar, After 2 trannys and the body rot I got rid of it. I tell you what tho that Hemi had some torque for a gas. Probably would of held up a little better if my Son didn't drive it and beat the brakes off it. He thinks I don't know how he beat it up. His friend would slip up and joke about it when I was in ears reach lol.


----------



## FredG

Furthermore they all think that I don't know that they use to call me Big Worm behind my back LMAO.


----------



## duramax plow

My dream truck is the international XT pickup, plenty of payload all the way a







round


----------



## duramax plow

duramax plow said:


> My dream truck is the international XT pickup, plenty of payload all the way a
> View attachment 179746
> round


It has leafsprings in the front, plenty of payloaf left over to handle what we need....


----------



## NYH1

duramax plow said:


> That's a heavy plow, how many miles on ur plow, did you need to repair or replace any of your front end?
> Because a Chevy 2500 would've been toast with that plow :laugh:


26k miles, this is my third full season plowing with it (we average 125" of snow a year, 150" this year). Nothing but oil changes, better tires and tire rotations so far. Tow with it in the summer.

NYH1.


----------



## NYH1

FredG said:


> I had a Hemi in my 03 Mopar, After 2 trannys and the body rot I got rid of it. I tell you what tho that Hemi had some torque for a gas. Probably would of held up a little better if my Son didn't drive it and beat the brakes off it. He thinks I don't know how he beat it up. His friend would slip up and joke about it when I was in ears reach lol.


That's the 5.7L Hemi and 545RFE trans. That's what I have in my half ton. My 3/4 ton has the 6.4L hemi and 66RFE trans. You can still get the 5.7L in the current 25/3500's (only 9,000 GVWR). They make more power then the older ones. However, the 6.4L makes more torque at a little lower RPM so that's why I went with it. Plus I wanted all the capabilities that the 6.4L had, higher GVWR, F&R GAWR's, payload, towing and CCWR.

NYH1.


----------



## JustJeff

duramax plow said:


> That's a heavy plow, how many miles on ur plow, did you need to repair or replace any of your front end?
> Because a Chevy 2500 would've been toast with that plow :laugh:


Tell @Philbilly2 that.


----------



## NYH1

duramax plow said:


> That's a heavy plow, how many miles on ur plow, did you need to repair or replace any of your front end?
> Because a Chevy 2500 would've been toast with that plow :laugh:


I don't know about that. A lot of guys in my area use Chevy/GMC 2500's with the same plow as I have and bigger (9.6" XV/XV2, XLS, MVP3/MVP Plus, Wideouts, Boss DXT's and such). They seem to do fine. I think you have to or should make sure you get a truck with the plow & tow packages. A lot of Super Duty's around here too with plows. This is lake effect country, everyone's in on it!

NYH1.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Am I the only one that isn't "getting" it?


----------



## BUFF

duramax plow said:


> My dream truck is the international XT pickup, plenty of payload all the way a
> View attachment 179746
> round





duramax plow said:


> It has leafsprings in the front, plenty of payloaf left over to handle what we need....


If you've ever ridden in a XT you'd think other wise......
I've a huge fan of leaf springs for the simplicity of them and the ease of increasing the spring rate but you sacrifice ride. When Ford went to coils I was on the fence aboot them but did eventually change my mind. You can replace coils with a higher spring rate and not have an mulch as an negative affect on the ride. Coils with air bags is a great combination because you maintain your unloaded ride and when loaded increase air pressure to maintain ride height and stability.
Air bags all the way around is the ideal set up but comes at a large cost.
You can spring a truck all you want to increase GVW but the limitation is the axle, frame and tires of the vehicle.
Of course any mods to incase GVW should be certified by an ootfitter to be legal.


----------



## NYH1

Mark Oomkes said:


> Am I the only one that isn't "getting" it?


No, you get it, we get it....

NYH1.


----------



## duramax plow

NYH1 said:


> I don't know about that. A lot of guys in my area use Chevy/GMC 2500's with the same plow as I have and bigger (9.6" XV/XV2, XLS, MVP3/MVP Plus, Wideouts, Boss DXT's and such). They seem to do fine. I think you have to or should make sure you get a truck with the plow & tow packages. A lot of Super Duty's around here too with plows. This is lake effect country, everyone's in on it!
> 
> NYH1.


Seems like dodge makes a sturdier setup than what I was aware of, chevy still has independent front suspension even on a 1 ton, it's a weak point, 
You can plow with it, but it's still more likely to fail than the other 2 brand trucks.

I just HATE that dodge interior, give me a dodge suspension, with Ford look and interior, powered by a Chevy motor with an Allison transmission.

We can dream right


----------



## Philbilly2

duramax plow said:


> That's a heavy plow, how many miles on ur plow, did you need to repair or replace any of your front end?
> Because a Chevy 2500 would've been toast with that plow :laugh:





NYH1 said:


> I don't know about that. A lot of guys in my area use Chevy/GMC 2500's with the same plow as I have and bigger (9.6" XV/XV2, XLS, MVP3/MVP Plus, Wideouts, Boss DXT's and such). They seem to do fine. I think you have to or should make sure you get a truck with the plow & tow packages. A lot of Super Duty's around here too with plows. This is lake effect country, everyone's in on it!
> 
> NYH1.


I don't have a plow package on my work truck or my Denali. Still carry a 9.6 MVP3 just fine.



JustJeff said:


> Tell @Philbilly2 that.


Crap... no one told me my truck could not carry the plow that it has been carrying all along...


----------



## JustJeff

Philbilly2 said:


> I don't have a plow package on my work truck or my Denali. Still carry a 9.6 MVP3 just fine.
> 
> Crap... no one told me my truck could not carry the plow that it has been carrying all along...


Don't worry. According to an expert on here, the front end will be falling apart shortly.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> I don't have a plow package on my work truck or my Denali. Still carry a 9.6 MVP3 just fine.
> 
> Crap... no one told me my truck could not carry the plow that it has been carrying all along...


You better remove it before your truck just falls apart...literally. And EPICALLY. And diabollically.


----------



## JustJeff

Mark Oomkes said:


> You better remove it before your truck just falls apart...literally. And EPICALLY. And diabollically.


Or, he could leave it on and just put in a 3" lift in the front.


----------



## cwren2472

Mark Oomkes said:


> You better remove it before your truck just falls apart...literally. And EPICALLY. And diabollically.


And a lot of other -LLY adverbs.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JustJeff said:


> Or, he could leave it on and just put in a 3" lift in the front.


Good point...that is an option. Phil???

PS Phil, you could always finance the lift kit if necessary.


----------



## NYH1

Philbilly2 said:


> I don't have a plow package on my work truck or my Denali. Still carry a 9.6 MVP3 just fine.


Doesn't surprise me. A ton of Chevy/GMC's in all flavor's in my AO plowing fine with big plows.

I was buying a new truck knowing I was going to plow and tow with it. So I made sure to get one with the plow and tow packages that's all.

NYH1.


----------



## BUFF

JustJeff said:


> Or, he could leave it on and just put in a 3" lift in the front.


Go 6 or 8" lift and run a 10" stove pipe through the bed for xhaust....Thumbs Up


----------



## JustJeff

BUFF said:


> Go 6 or 8" lift and run a 10" stove pipe through the bed for xhaust....Thumbs Up


I don't know if I can do that. The expert only mentioned a 3".


----------



## John_DeereGreen

I'm in meetings for a day and come back to this disaster...


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> run a 10" stove pipe


Could this possibly act as ballast?

On the other hand, it might significantly overload the front axle. Or rear axle.

I wonder if I use helium in my airbags if that would reduce the weight on my front axle???

So many questions...so few answers.

BTW, my '14 was bought in Kalifornia..no plow prep.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

John_DeereGreen said:


> I'm in meetings for a day and come back to this disaster...


You missed the other disaster...MJD had it cleaned up in EPIC time, even faster than Oldmop could have with a truckload of brooms and mops.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Mark Oomkes said:


> You missed the other disaster...MJD had it cleaned up in EPIC time, even faster than Oldmop could have with a truckload of brooms and mops.


Snowmanbob thread that has now bitten the dust like his others?


----------



## Randall Ave

I just read this whole thing, going for the Tylenol, wash it down with the cheap beer. Why do larger rigs have 5th wheels that slide, trailers with suspension sliders? Mark knows, what was that sticker on the back of the car, it could apply to some adults too.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Randall Ave said:


> I just read this whole thing, going for the Tylenol, wash it down with the cheap beer. Why do larger rigs have 5th wheels that slide, trailers with suspension sliders? Mark knows, what was that sticker on the back of the car, it could apply to some adults too.


Lol


----------



## Philbilly2

Randall Ave said:


> I just read this whole thing, going for the Tylenol, wash it down with the cheap beer. Why do larger rigs have 5th wheels that slide, trailers with suspension sliders? Mark knows, what was that sticker on the back of the car, it could apply to some adults too.


Lmoa... very true... very true....


----------



## Philbilly2

NYH1 said:


> Doesn't surprise me. A ton of Chevy/GMC's in all flavor's in my AO plowing fine with big plows.
> 
> I was buying a new truck knowing I was going to plow and tow with it. So I made sure to get one with the plow and tow packages that's all.
> 
> NYH1.


Understand completely.. I also knew I would tow and plow with mine, but declined to pay for things that I feel a 3/4 or 1 ton truck should already be very capable of...


----------



## BUFF

Randall Ave said:


> I just read this whole thing, going for the Tylenol, wash it down with the cheap beer. Why do larger rigs have 5th wheels that slide, trailers with suspension sliders? Mark knows, what was that sticker on the back of the car, it could apply to some adults too.





Philbilly2 said:


> Lmoa... very true... very true....


Seems it's common knowledge Marks mom drives a Ford Exploder........
and has a pit bull too....


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> Seems it's common knowledge Marks mom drives a Ford Exploder........
> and has a pit bull too....


I thought you said you would keep that a secret...


----------



## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> I thought you said you would keep that a secret...


I'm tuning up for World Wide Bipolar day on Friday......:hammerhead:


----------



## Randall Ave

Mark Oomkes said:


> Could this possibly act as ballast?
> 
> On the other hand, it might significantly overload the front axle. Or rear axle.
> 
> I wonder if I use helium in my airbags if that would reduce the weight on my front axle???
> 
> So many questions...so few answers.
> 
> BTW, my '14 was bought in Kalifornia..no plow prep.


Wait a minute, your trucks a LIBERAL?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Randall Ave said:


> Wait a minute, your trucks a LIBERAL?


It has been reformed...certain parts fell oof.


----------



## BUFF

Randall Ave said:


> Wait a minute, your trucks a LIBERAL?


And came with Rainbow print seat covers....... Which I have a source that says they're still on the seats 4 yrs later...


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> And came with Rainbow print seat covers....... Which I have a source that says they're still on the seats 4 yrs later...


Let's keep it on topic fella...


----------



## Randall Ave

This can decrease your Dodge ride hight.


----------



## BUFF

Randall Ave said:


> This can decrease your Dodge ride hight.
> View attachment 179759


That'll do it.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Randall Ave said:


> This can decrease your Dodge ride hight.
> View attachment 179759


3" lift kit will fix that right up...


----------



## Mike_PS

Mark Oomkes said:


> Let's keep it on topic fella...


agreed, let's get back to the discussion


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Pretty sure the original discussion checked out back on page 1 or 2


----------



## Philbilly2

duramax plow said:


> This f250 I'm in is single cab gas.
> 4400# not sure what it weighs, but I has to be overloaded from the plow., shocks is gone after 1 season


So... just a question for you...

If you are on here preaching about how front axles are overloaded, should you practice what you preach?


----------



## Philbilly2

duramax plow said:


> Yes, crazy right, chevy is has idependant front suspension., but even the new ones has a small payload.
> 
> This f250 I'm in is single cab gas.
> 4400# not sure what it weighs, but I has to be overloaded from the plow., shocks is gone after 1 season


My 3500 Chevy double cab gas has a Front Gawr of 4900 
My 2500 GMC crew cab diesel has a front gawr of 5200

I thought these solid axle fords were supposed to be more suited for carrying a snow plow?


----------



## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> This is why several of us were giving helpful advice regarding airbags and COUNTERWEIGHT, not wishing this would happen or that would happen or trying to deny the laws of physics.


Wow...

Question for you mark... how much ballast does your ebling yeild you...


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> My 3500 Chevy double cab gas has a Front Gawr of 4900
> My 2500 GMC crew cab diesel has a front gawr of 5200
> 
> I thought these solid axle fords were supposed to be more suited for carrying a snow plow?


I was wondering if you would read through this unmitigated disaster of a physics lesson.


----------



## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was wondering if you would read through this unmitigated disaster of a physics lesson.


----------



## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was wondering if you would read through this unmitigated disaster of a physics lesson.


Just imagine if the Poop Scooper was involved in this thread and the things we'd learn......


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> Just imagine if the Poop Scooper was involved in this thread and the things we'd learn......


Lmao


----------



## Mike_PS

I believe the OP is done with the discussion and it's run its course?

let me know if that isn't the case


----------



## BUFF

Michael J. Donovan said:


> I believe the OP is done with the discussion and it's run its course?
> 
> let me know if that isn't the case


I think we're good..... For you sanity it may be best to stick a fork in it and say it's done... Or let it roll and see where it goes.


----------



## Philbilly2

duramax plow said:


> Yes, crazy right, chevy is has idependant front suspension., but even the new ones has a small payload.
> 
> This f250 I'm in is single cab gas.
> 4400# not sure what it weighs, but I has to be overloaded from the plow., shocks is gone after 1 season





Michael J. Donovan said:


> I believe the OP is done with the discussion and it's run its course?
> 
> let me know if that isn't the case


I would honestly like to understand the answer to this question. I think it is a more than valid question that is very much on topic no?


----------



## Mike_PS

sure, if it gets back to the original, or otherwise relevant, discussion then I'm fine with that


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Michael J. Donovan said:


> sure, if it gets back to the original, or otherwise relevant, discussion then I'm fine with that


I'll keep it on the tracks for you.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FWIW, my '16 RAM 2500 has a 5,500# FAWR. It has the "mighty" Hemi. 

Forgot to check the F350 before it left.


----------



## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> FWIW, my '16 RAM 2500 has a 5,500# FAWR. It has the "mighty" Hemi.
> 
> Forgot to check the F350 before it left.


Door tag oof my SD F-2fity with plow prep


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> Door tag oof my SD F-2fity with plow prep
> View attachment 179778


Slightly oof topic...I don't see a GCVWR number on there...like is on EVERY truck.


----------



## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> Slightly oof topic...I don't see a GCVWR number on there...like is on EVERY truck.


Its a Ford and exempt from such trivial ratings as GCVWR.......


----------



## duramax plow

Just got out the hospital, from all the shots I've taken 

Actually got a good laugh out the stove pipe exhaust.

So an existing truck, I guess y'all consensus is the air bag is the best aftermarket solution for a truck with a weak front end. 
And the newer trucks, have beefier setups then the older trucks. 

STILL curious on marks F350 front weight rating compared to ur actual weight.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> STILL curious on marks F350 front weight rating compared to ur actual weight.


No guarantee because the sticker is gone after the cab was repainted. I checked the '00 that I sold to my son and that sticker is gone as well.

Looks like it was 5,200 FAWR. It has the 7.3 and plow prep.

BTW, I was mistaken on the GVWR, it's 9,900# not 10k. So my 2500's have a higher GVWR than my F350.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/2002/fsersdcd.pdf


----------



## FredG

Airbags are cool, I have not had any installed yet because I don't have a bad sag issue because I know how to ballast correctly or put the weight behind back axle if needed. As I said before on the pickups from my many years with pickups if you look safe your good to go. I do realize that if I actually got weighed I'm overloaded. I only work in one county and half of another. This has not been a problem for me or any other contractors.

If I was concerned with it I would use one of my dumps but there usually doing something else than towing.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Still have the motor carrier morons telling me I have to have an elected GVW sticker on my F350. Made a copy of the letter stating I don't and put it in the glove box. 

I know, somewhat oof topic but it goes along with these morons making the laws so confusing no one can understand them. 

The law was changed to anything over 8,000# actual curb weight. That ain't 3/4 and 1 tons.


----------



## duramax plow

Yeah too many laws to keep up., my 04 dually duramax crew cab long bed weighed 7800# on cat scale with me in it. 

But the older 1 tons has less payload on either axles than the newer 3/4 tons. 
Big 3 trucks all engineered better designs with plowing in mind, hence they started offering plow prep options. 

But county cops vary, someone at like a DOT officer and go by registration, and scale weight ticket the back out you


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> Big 3 trucks all engineered better designs with plowing in mind, hence they started offering plow prep options.


Huh?

Plow prep options have been around since the late 70's...that's as far back as I can remember.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

2018 F350 Power Stroke with plow prep


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> Huh?
> 
> Plow prep options have been around since the late 70's...that's as far back as I can remember.


I'm saying over the past 10 years the payload on the same setups increased significantly in the front., and rear for that matter


----------



## NYH1

John_DeereGreen said:


> 2018 F350 Power Stroke with plow prep
> View attachment 179843


Is it ok that I had to turn my puter sideways to read this....are we good with this? 

NYH1.


----------



## cwren2472

NYH1 said:


> Is it ok that I had to turn my puter sideways to read this....are we good with this?
> 
> NYH1.


He did that deliberately so everyone that looked at it would crane their neck. Except for the people on cell phones who would try and turn the phone to read it only to have the phone rotate itself again just to piss you off.

Personally, I would have blurred the text just enough to make you squint at it too.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

duramax plow said:


> I'm saying over the past 10 years the payload on the same setups increased significantly in the front., and rear for that matter


K...but you also said it's why the Big 3 starred offering plow prep. I informed you they've been doing it for 40+ years.

Do you read what you type?


----------



## duramax plow

Mark Oomkes said:


> K...but you also said it's why the Big 3 starred offering plow prep. I informed you they've been doing it for 40+ years.
> 
> Do you read what you type?


Yeah, but before, like with my 04, plow prep package, didn't help, being my 1 ton dually is overloaded.....

Seems like u just like to argue. I'm glad instead keeping payloads the same, they have been increasing them, and making previous failed components stronger

This 15 f250 has overall and each axle higher payload then my 04 1 ton


----------



## Mark Oomkes

I like to correct inaccurate statements and call people on their BS. Of which you have had a truckload in this thread.

An overloaded truck at that.


----------



## cwren2472

Mark Oomkes said:


> I like to correct inaccurate statements and call people on their BS. Of which you have had a truckload in this thread.
> 
> An overloaded truck at that.


Perhaps you can fix that overloaded truck with some ballast.


----------



## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> K...but you also said it's why the Big 3 starred offering plow prep. I informed you they've been doing it for 40+ years.
> 
> Do you read what you type?












Take into consideration it was the 70's and some blocks of time were/are a blur........
To my knowledge the only domestic pickup truck available with something remotely close to a factory plow prep package was Dodge under the badge's of Sno Fiter and Sno Commander depending on the model year which came with a Meyer plow. Ford and GM had no factory offerings.
This was also a time when pickups were built for work not for soccer moms, they were very simple in design and used simple but robust components. 
When pickups gain popularity with the general population in the early 90's is when creature comforts took precedence over durability and plow prep packages were added to the options.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> View attachment 179851
> 
> 
> Take into consideration it was the 70's and some blocks of time were/are a blur........
> To my knowledge the only domestic pickup truck available with something remotely close to a factory plow prep package was Dodge under the badge's of Sno Fiter and Sno Commander depending on the model year which came with a Meyer plow. Ford and GM had no factory offerings.
> This was also a time when pickups were built for work not for soccer moms, they were very simple in design and used simple but robust components.
> When pickups gain popularity with the general population in the early 90's is when creature comforts took precedence over durability and plow prep packages were added to the options.


You could be correct...since I was only a youngster at the time I only remember the Dodges since that was what my dad was buying in the mid to late 70's.


----------



## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was only a youngster at the time .


:laugh:


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> :laugh:
> 
> View attachment 179853


Not quite that young...but close.


----------

