# Lets Beat Out The Lowballers



## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

I just had an idea while talking to the wife this morning. Form a "SnowPlow Contractor Union" Make it alittle pricey to join to keep out the lowballers. Market the hell out of to the customers. Within the union us contractors have set prices.

Lets here some feedback to improve this.

Who has the time to make it happen?


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

I'll keep doing what I've been doing, the way I've been doing it for the last 11 years. Thanks.


In theory, it sounds like a great idea, in practice I don't see it working.


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## paponte (Oct 28, 2003)

How about just perform superior service in your area, and they will come. I have resigned every customer for the last 12yrs that we service. The only customers ever lost were the non payers or the PITA's, and that was our doing. I don't know about by you, but here the low ballers get the lots nobody wants anyway.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Flawless440;1165877 said:


> I just had an idea while talking to the wife this morning. Form a "SnowPlow Contractor Union" *Make it alittle pricey to join *to keep out the lowballers. Market the hell out of to the customers. Within the union us contractors have set prices.
> 
> Lets here some feedback to improve this.
> 
> Who has the time to make it happen?


Isn't that called SIMA.........


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Its funny, every year someone comes up with the same idea. It would be a good thing but just in thought.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

There has and always will be people that will work for less. I can bet some of the people that call people low ballers are low ballers in in someone else's eyes. This topic has been beat to death. Figure out a way to make your business profitable by becoming more effiecient, running a tight ship and doing jobs that not everyone can do. JMO


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## plowman4life (Jan 16, 2008)

the only way to get rid of lowballers in my opinion is to have the backing of the state. and to have a license that allows you to perform snowplowing and salting comercially. must have a business license and tax ID number and general liability to apply for it. that would end that. b/c if it suddenly became hard to do it i think most people would jump off the snow plowing band wagon so to speak. b/c i know most of the guys on here this is thier only income through the winter and would have no problem getting a license to do it to ensure they could continue to run thier business.

and im not say you would have to be licensed to own a plow. if you want one for personal use thats fine. but i think if your charging people and doing it commercially. than that is the only way to eliminate lowballers


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

jd dave;1165945 said:


> there has and always will be people that will work for less. I can bet some of the people that call people low ballers are low ballers in in someone else's eyes. This topic has been beat to death. Figure out a way to make your business profitable by becoming more effiecient, running a tight ship and doing jobs that not everyone can do. Jmo


x2...........


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## slongfellowii (Dec 29, 2004)

Flawless440;1165877 said:


> I just had an idea while talking to the wife this morning. Form a "SnowPlow Contractor Union" Make it alittle pricey to join to keep out the lowballers. Market the hell out of to the customers. Within the union us contractors have set prices.
> 
> Lets here some feedback to improve this.
> 
> Who has the time to make it happen?


I think someone is looking for a government bailout. lol


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## rusty_keg_3 (Dec 6, 2008)

I see where he is coming from... Lowballers suck and if u think about it, U dont see the iron workers getting low balled, then again its a skilled trade... But still what about the companies like USM, they hold all of these contracts, and from what i gather they do them really cheap, then just sub the work out (i hear pay isnt that great)... 

So... from what i read from others USM is a "lowballer" in a sense... And they have an unfathomable amount of contracts... So i guess this would only help with some residential, asome commercial...

IMO, idk tho


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

toby4492;1165977 said:


> x2...........


X3 I couldn't agree more


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## cf1128 (Jan 14, 2009)

Be Better not Bitter.
X4 JD Dave


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## paponte (Oct 28, 2003)

plowman4life;1165962 said:


> the only way to get rid of lowballers in my opinion is to have the backing of the state. and to have a license that allows you to perform snowplowing and salting comercially. must have a business license and tax ID number and general liability to apply for it.


You already need all of this to run a business in the first place, so I don't agree with you on this. If you require yet ANOTHER license, the only people that make out are the townships and government in all the fees. There are already too many fees involved for the legit business man. All these illegals in business killing the industry are the problem. After that last statement I must point out that BY ILLEGALS I MEAN NON LICENSED, NON INSURED SO CALLED COMPANIES, before my thread gets deleted. There are no agencies really enforcing these requirements. It is in essence our jobs to point out the requirements to be a legit plowing company to your clients. How if they hire the lowballer, they in essence are liable.


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## dforbes (Jan 14, 2005)

Flawless440;1165877 said:


> I just had an idea while talking to the wife this morning. Form a "SnowPlow Contractor Union" Make it alittle pricey to join to keep out the lowballers. Market the hell out of to the customers. Within the union us contractors have set prices.
> 
> Lets here some feedback to improve this.
> 
> Who has the time to make it happen?


A union is formed to protect employees from the company they work for. I think what you are proposing is a totaly diferant situation. It sounds good in theory, but would only increase our cost of doing business and have little to no effect on lowballers. These guys could care less what you set your prices at because they are willing to work for pennys.


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## jkiser96 (Sep 19, 2006)

The company that I work full time for was buste dfor this a few years ago. The higher ups did time & had to pay a huge fine. This is called price fixing.


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## allcraftsmen (Dec 31, 2009)

plowman4life;1165962 said:


> the only way to get rid of lowballers in my opinion is to have the backing of the state. and to have a license that allows you to perform snowplowing and salting comercially. must have a business license and tax ID number and general liability to apply for it. that would end that. b/c if it suddenly became hard to do it i think most people would jump off the snow plowing band wagon so to speak. b/c i know most of the guys on here this is thier only income through the winter and would have no problem getting a license to do it to ensure they could continue to run thier business.
> 
> and im not say you would have to be licensed to own a plow. if you want one for personal use thats fine. but i think if your charging people and doing it commercially. than that is the only way to eliminate lowballers


That's what we need more regulation by the state. They can't even balance a checkbook. The lowballers will come and go. They always have. Here one minute, out of business the next.....


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

jd dave;1165945 said:


> there has and always will be people that will work for less. I can bet some of the people that call people low ballers are low ballers in in someone else's eyes. This topic has been beat to death. Figure out a way to make your business profitable by becoming more effiecient, running a tight ship and doing jobs that not everyone can do. Jmo


x5

....


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

JD Dave;1165945 said:


> There has and always will be people that will work for less. I can bet some of the people that call people low ballers are low ballers in in someone else's eyes. This topic has been beat to death. Figure out a way to make your business profitable by becoming more effiecient, running a tight ship and doing jobs that not everyone can do. JMO


X6- X100...JD you are the Greatest...Im starting to have a Little Man crush....:laughing:..:salute:....


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## 496 BB (Feb 11, 2010)

Heres a step towards eliminating the low ballers. STOP EXTENDING UN-EMPLOYMENT!!!!!! Maybe then these jackwagons will have to make more to stay afloat like the rest of us. There will ALWAYS be the guys out there in ANY industry that work just enough to get their 8-ball and 12 pack for the weekend. That will never change. They all weed themselves out though eventually after they realize they dont have enough money for those two things PLUS gas. Then welfare takes over and it starts the cycle over again.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

I still haven't lost any accounts to the quote lowballers unquote.


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## sno commander (Oct 16, 2007)

i think alot of people are over confident about there services here. just because someone can do it cheaper doesn't mean there a lowballer. maybe there more effiecient and can charge less. look a niege for example he can do drives alot cheaper because hes got like 3,000.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

sno commander;1166217 said:


> i think alot of people are over confident about there services here. just because someone can do it cheaper doesn't mean there a lowballer. maybe there more effiecient and can charge less. look a niege for example he can do drives alot cheaper because hes got like 3,000.


Oooo  it almost sounds like he knows what he's talking about! 
Jk!
I agree 100% with your post!


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

BossPlow2010;1166194 said:


> I still haven't lost any accounts to the quote lowballers unquote.


Not Losing them......Its not getting many new ones, we bid on alot and get few. Every time we ask why we are told so and so is cheaper. They don't care about anything but that price. Its B.S


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

BossPlow2010;1166221 said:


> Oooo  it almost sounds like he knows what he's talking about!


Except for the use of "there" instead of "their" and "they're"


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

Flawless440;1166260 said:


> we are told so and so is cheaper.


So that makes "so and so" a lowballer?? Just like that?


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

I dont think it is so much the lowballer as it is the customer. Customers are driving the price down. I agree that price fixing would be nice but its also illegal however I don't think the snow industry is big enough to be recognized but as said there will always be someone that will do it "cheaper", its capitalism. I do agree that the central ohio market is screwed up. I am picky when it comes to customers as they should be when looking for a contractor and thats what makes us work together


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

cubicinches;1166267 said:


> So that makes "so and so" a lowballer?? Just like that?


Most of the lots bided on are within mins of our other lots, i go into the bid knowing "so and so the lowballer" is biding against me so i bid it cheap as i can. Like i said mins from other props. We don't get it because we are told we were not the cheapest bid.
So way to put that together- "so and so is the lowballer" or if you perfer we can call him the "cheapest bid"


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## barrybro (Nov 3, 2009)

plowman4life;1165962 said:


> the only way to get rid of lowballers in my opinion is to have the backing of the state. and to have a license that allows you to perform snowplowing and salting comercially. must have a business license and tax ID number and general liability to apply for it. that would end that. b/c if it suddenly became hard to do it i think most people would jump off the snow plowing band wagon so to speak. b/c i know most of the guys on here this is thier only income through the winter and would have no problem getting a license to do it to ensure they could continue to run thier business.
> 
> and im not say you would have to be licensed to own a plow. if you want one for personal use thats fine. but i think if your charging people and doing it commercially. than that is the only way to eliminate lowballers


I think they have a system like this in Russia. I am not so sure how this works for them.

Barry


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

Scottscape;1166304 said:


> I dont think it is so much the lowballer as it is the customer. Customers are driving the price down. I agree that price fixing would be nice but its also illegal however I don't think the snow industry is big enough to be recognized but as said there will always be someone that will do it "cheaper", its capitalism. I do agree that the central ohio market is screwed up. I am picky when it comes to customers as they should be when looking for a contractor and thats what makes us work together


The pricing is crazy in Columbus, and the Tree game is worse


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

Flawless440;1166308 said:


> Most of the lots bided on are within mins of our other lots, i go into the bid knowing "so and so the lowballer" is biding against me so i bid it cheap as i can. Like i said mins from other props. We don't get it because we are told we were not the cheapest bid.
> So way to put that together- "so and so is the lowballer" or if you perfer we can call him the "cheapest bid"


Ok...

So, to answer my question... Him being the cheapest bid, or cheaper than you... that's what makes him a lowballer?


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

X7 never been part of a union and never will be. Union's are only good for lazy people IMO. If you are good at what you are doing you don't need a union to protect you and you will be competitive, efficient and make money.


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## bighornjd (Oct 23, 2009)

Hmm. LOWBALLERS. If ya can't beat em, join em! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Lugnut (Feb 25, 2006)

bighornjd;1166551 said:


> Hmm. LOWBALLERS. If ya can't beat em, join em! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


OK, I'll join too, Bighornjd, be a pal and let all your customers know I'll beat your price by $5!


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## bighornjd (Oct 23, 2009)

Lugnut;1166575 said:


> OK, I'll join too, Bighornjd, be a pal and let all your customers know I'll beat your price by $5!


I pay $20 per account to make sure I get them all. You'll go broke paying $25. Just give up now.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

bighornjd;1166809 said:


> I pay $20 per account to make sure I get them all. You'll go broke paying $25. Just give up now.


I'll be your first customer.... I've got a route for both you guys


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## Lugnut (Feb 25, 2006)

Obama will give me the $25 to pay your accounts with ussmileyflag


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

Matson Snow;1165888 said:


> Isn't that called SIMA.........


not as long as sima lets the nationals join ..................


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## watatrp (Jan 10, 2001)

Not trying to throw gas on the fire here but where is the line that makes you a low baller? If you can run your business in an efficient manner and only take on new customers within your existing routes and are able to gain customers and still make money, does that make you a low baller? I've always had a belief in being in business for myself. I'd much rather have a customer that pays me a fair price for ten years than one who I charge high prices to for a year. All my bids are prepared without knowledge of what the potential customer is paying. My bids are what are fair for me to do the work and still have a reasonable profit. My personal finances are in such a state that I don't require as many dollars as most to survive. Translation-I don't have any debt. That includes the house. That gives me the freedom to earn a little less than the average guy and still have more in my pocket at the end of the month. I know that it's hard to achieve a debt free state but once you are there, it's nice. That doesn't mean I'm a low baller because my rates are a little lower than average does it?


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

watatrp;1167063 said:


> where is the line that makes you a low baller?


I was asking the same thing, in a roundabout way.... no answer.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

watatrp;1167063 said:


> Not trying to throw gas on the fire here but where is the line that makes you a low baller? If you can run your business in an efficient manner and only take on new customers within your existing routes and are able to gain customers and still make money, does that make you a low baller? I've always had a belief in being in business for myself. I'd much rather have a customer that pays me a fair price for ten years than one who I charge high prices to for a year. All my bids are prepared without knowledge of what the potential customer is paying. My bids are what are fair for me to do the work and still have a reasonable profit. My personal finances are in such a state that I don't require as many dollars as most to survive. Translation-I don't have any debt. That includes the house. That gives me the freedom to earn a little less than the average guy and still have more in my pocket at the end of the month. I know that it's hard to achieve a debt free state but once you are there, it's nice. That doesn't mean I'm a low baller because my rates are a little lower than average does it?


I get that, but also a one truck operation usually sticks to driveways and a-rab lots. I'm talking large business complexes, walks, loading docs whole nine yards. You bid them bottom dollar and get under bided.
Here in town Buckeye Landscape has had alot of contracts around here i work there as a kid aswell. Budweiser Plant, The Limited (Clothing), Etc. Brickmen came to town and took it all. Buckeye has had these for twenty years. Not just these, i have seen a dozen million dallor contracts go to brickmen. So what Buckeye dose a bad job, no i have work there they run a tight ship, they got under bided, or lowballed


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## lilpusher (Nov 16, 2009)

Actually iron workers along with most manufacturing has been lowballed by government subsidized companies in china. I blame the consumer, myself included at times. If a majority of us demanded quality instead of low pricing we might see a different employment landscape meaning more jobs and fewer guys with lots of spare time to lowball plowing. Ok I'm done. I gotta go lowball some bids now.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

Lugnut;1166842 said:


> Obama will give me the $25 to pay your accounts with ussmileyflag


Now thats funny


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## watatrp (Jan 10, 2001)

It seems to me that if prices are being driven down so low by "low ballers" then I just wouldn't take an account. If your company is run well and you can't make money at the low prices, then someone else won't be able to also. Let them have it and place your bid next year when they are out of business. I do mostly smaller business lots and a few residential. I'm not a big time operator but I earn enough to meet my needs. I know the urge is grow a business and make more money. Especially in this economy there is a point where you can become larger and start to lose money.


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## dumbyankee (Jul 30, 2010)

Yeh I had a simular thought and I farted and it passed. Nope and there is no stains either. There will be lowballers or in some cases freeballers. They are people like us trying to get their feet wet and open their little corner of the market. They will make it or they dont. If I get beat this season on a lowballer and loose a drive, I will bet next year the customer will be back to us paying 10% more than they should be and thanking us for doing so. Most of my clients are pickey about how things get done, and how much crap gets plowed over.


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

496 BB;1166174 said:


> Heres a step towards eliminating the low ballers. STOP EXTENDING UN-EMPLOYMENT!!!!!! Maybe then these jackwagons will have to make more to stay afloat like the rest of us. There will ALWAYS be the guys out there in ANY industry that work just enough to get their 8-ball and 12 pack for the weekend. That will never change. They all weed themselves out though eventually after they realize they dont have enough money for those two things PLUS gas. Then welfare takes over and it starts the cycle over again.


x2 and your even from Ohio like I am. Me and you are seeing things exactly the same. I live in southern Ohio and it seems like every dam body is on un=employment. People are making so much money on the couch it would be dumb to go out and look for a job!!!!!!


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

Cedar Grounds;1166365 said:


> X7 never been part of a union and never will be. Union's are only good for lazy people IMO. If you are good at what you are doing you don't need a union to protect you and you will be competitive, efficient and make money.


H E L L O, My name is Rob.... Nice to meet you. My brain and your brain think exactly alike!!!!

You couldnt have said it any better my good friend!!! I have family members that work in union jobs and there are some lazy sons oh biches...... Because they know they cant be fired. Everyone on this planet should have to go into there job place and know that if they don't work hard they could lose there job to someone who is willing to come and and work. Im not happy to say that some of my family are pieces oh sheet but all there worried about is working for 12 month and pray for a lay off so they can get there dam unemployment money and do cash work on the side (low ballers you say). All of a sudden These lazy asses are making more than everyone else who is actually working every day.

Unions are for people that want a job knowing they cant get fired from. Once your in, you can do whatever the hell you want cuz you aint gettin fired........... Thats for dam sure!!!!

My Grandfather was sallary for ford. Had to make X amount of parts by the end of the day. Come in, get his parts done in half a day, go home.

How bout this, Grandpa goes to work, makes as many dam parts as possible for his 8 hour day, ford gets there moneys worth out of Grandpa and the price of a flippin truck isnt 50K.

I never did understand Unions on the big picture but the people working for them sure like them. Hell my Wifes father was a brick layer, made 22 bucks an hour, worked for 8 months, got layed off and then that ******* took a voluntary lay off and sits on his ass and draws a check and thanks to mr obama he''s been drawing that check for a LONG freakin time!!!!!! Its just wrong.

As for the original poster, I see exactly what your saying, but I wouldnt even want my name associated with the word Union. That word has hurt our country if you ask me. Look at ford. Plants shutting down all over the darn place. If they werent paying people 30 bucks an hour for an 8 hour day but letting them go home after 4 hours maybe that wouldnt have happened!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dumbyankee (Jul 30, 2010)

F*** it lets form a possie and go get them lowballen sons a things! Lets form a group and call it plowers for dollars. GET THE ROPE ! Im quite sure once they hear about us they will start leaving town. Load up the shot gun, we can ride around and blast away at every beat up pickup with a plow on it. There that should scare em. Dam it.


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

dumbyankee;1167510 said:


> F*** it lets form a possie and go get them lowballen sons a things! Lets form a group and call it plowers for dollars. GET THE ROPE ! Im quite sure once they hear about us they will start leaving town. Load up the shot gun, we can ride around and blast away at every beat up pickup with a plow on it. There that should scare em. Dam it.


 Thats funny dumbyankee, Its just the way its going to be, lowballers are gonna be around every corner........ The worse part about it is, some of you prolly think Im a lowballer. Its no different than lawncare. There are folks in my area that think I mow to cheap. Its simple really in lawncare. If I can clear 1 dollar per minute that im on the lawn im good to go.

Sooooooo Last season our church was open for bid. Ive had it for years but it is open for bid every year. takes an hour on the button with one person, mowing trimmin blowing and My est. was $85 plus tax. One of my friendly competitors (until the day he saw me mowing, stoped and said what im about to tell ya) stopped and told me that all competitors were sent a paper in the mail with a list of the 6 prices that were turned in. I was middle of the pack but the lowest that turned in insurance. His bid was $105+tax and said he thought I was hurting everyone else in the area by doing jobs that cheap. I told him to $%^& off and I havent talked to him since.

So remember, to someone we are all lowballers.


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

This whole thing has been beaten into the ground, low bid is not necessarily a lowballer


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

PhilFromErie;1168210 said:


> This whole thing has been beaten into the ground, low bid is not necessarily a lowballer


It is if the property has been bided at the lowest point possible


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## dumbyankee (Jul 30, 2010)

It was meant to be funny. We work in a tight market. It dosent matter what the trade or service you provide. The bottom line, some times you just have to control costs, We do the same thing when we look for a new truck, plow or mower or what ever you are spending your hard earned money on. You want the best deal with the best service, with the best quality. Thats what I try to provide to my customers.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

MahonLawnCare;1166861 said:


> not as long as sima lets the nationals join ..................


Some of those quote nationals unquote helped SIMA become what it is today.


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## OMGWTFBBQ (Sep 23, 2009)

Yeah get the pitchforks and torches.... Time for some lynching.....


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

dumbyankee;1168487 said:


> It was meant to be funny. We work in a tight market. It dosent matter what the trade or service you provide. The bottom line, some times you just have to control costs, We do the same thing when we look for a new truck, plow or mower or what ever you are spending your hard earned money on. You want the best deal with the best service, with the best quality. Thats what I try to provide to my customers.


I don't want you to think I disagreed with you at all yankee. When I said it was funny I also meant I agree!!!! Right on the money!!!


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## dumbyankee (Jul 30, 2010)

To all just to let you know, there is no way you can offend me. Some times I will throw something out like that just to get other people to laugh. But if we take some of this to serious it will eat you up. The real question is how do I lower my bottom line, improve service and quality at a lower cost. Which improves my profitability. For example: you have a drive way account and you charge $30.00 per push. OK at that price you are making money. You decide to buy a new $50,000.00 set up, with all the other costs you now have to charge $45.00 per push, so you let the customer know about the increase. When they hear the news they ask around, and find a newbie that will do it for $25.00. Is that low-balling because you bought a new outfit, and some one beat you out, or could you have done the same thing with a cheaper outfit, and kept the cost the same, and kept the account.


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

dumbyankee;1168841 said:


> To all just to let you know, there is no way you can offend me. Some times I will throw something out like that just to get other people to laugh. But if we take some of this to serious it will eat you up. The real question is how do I lower my bottom line, improve service and quality at a lower cost. Which improves my profitability. For example: you have a drive way account and you charge $30.00 per push. OK at that price you are making money. You decide to buy a new $50,000.00 set up, with all the other costs you now have to charge $45.00 per push, so you let the customer know about the increase. When they hear the news they ask around, and find a newbie that will do it for $25.00. Is that low-balling because you bought a new outfit, and some one beat you out, or could you have done the same thing with a cheaper outfit, and kept the cost the same, and kept the account.


Thats definetley a good way of looking at it. If a man can use an old truck and plow he bought for 2500 bucks then he should be able to clear a driveway cheaper than a person with a brand new rig with a $5000 plow setup and maybe even still be able to put more money in his pocket...............

Thats brings me to my next example, in my little rural town we have a feller last name frost. He is retired, has plenty of money, but as a pass time drives around on his rider with a small trailer with weedeater blower etc. He has a ton of really small in town yards (which I love). He does these yards for little to nothing but look at his overhead compared to what Im running. Hell, he's making money, prolly the same amount as I would if I was charging double what he was............. Maybe thats not lowballing.......... Maybe its smart???????? By the way, for the equip. he's working with, he doesnt actually do to bad of a job......


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## SD40T2 (Dec 13, 2007)

I have a low overhead I have been plowing over 20 years and have kept my prices low since I started. I gave up doing commercial 5 years ago and couldn't be happier I am now a 1 truck operation with a late model truck that is paid for. I never factored truck payments into my pricing due to the fact my truck is my daily driver and I needed it anyways and I don't buy new every few years hell my last plow truck I bought in '88 and retired it in '05 and I only had to put 1 tranny in and rebuild transfer case once and it had over 400,000 miles on it and it never missed a day of plowing. I charge anywhere from $15-$30 bucks for a residential driveway and I make money, and my customer base is from word of mouth or referals from other customers, they call me I don't solicit customers, I have 25 driveways in a 10mile radius it takes 2-2 1/2 hours to do and I clear $450 after expenses does this make me a "low baller". when I give an estamate, the potential customer is shocked at what I qoute them which is usually at least 25% lower than the rest, and I have no idea what the others charge when I do an estamate I just shake my head in disbelief, $35 bucks for a 2 pass residential driveway IMO is overcharging. I feel that the loss of buisness is more due to over pricing than from "low ballers". and before the flaming begins i am insured and legit. I run this buisiness while I am off in the winter from my regular job.


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

BossPlow2010;1168497 said:


> Some of those quote nationals unquote helped SIMA become what it is today.


just a joke budxysport


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## dumbyankee (Jul 30, 2010)

Snowcrazy: here is a prime example. Now if I was you don't try to compete. Talk with the guy. Do a little networking. Get on his good side. Help him out now and again. Soon or later, he will retire for good or die. Then pounce on his accounts. Its better if he doesn't die before he turns his accounts over to you. He might in time turn a few over per year and work his way out of it. Just because you cant compete today, against him, Now is the time to set the foundation for tomorrow. We spend to much time on today. Plan for the next day two days ago. By the way I was not implying keep the junk you have, or run something beyond its use full life. What I was saying think long and hard, and weight the options before making a major purchase. Ask your self can I get another year out of it, or will the repair costs be more than getting a new one. Can I afford all the options I want now, or will some of them have to wait a year or two.


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## dumbyankee (Jul 30, 2010)

To SD40: my question to you: are you really making money? It seems if you don't factor in the cost of the truck, and the plow equipment on the truck, plus its maintenance, you could be lowballing. Or at the very least not covering all your expense's. I don't think you are doing it on purpose, more so if you have done it for 20 years. From my stand point, you are turning a pay check over the winter months. Lets say we bid on a driveway. I have factored in all my costs, including insurance, workmens comp, etc. It would be safe to say, you would get the account based on the estimate alone. More times that not, when I compete against a sole proprietor, I market, quality, removal in a timely fashion, sanding when needed, and I have back up just in case. I all ready know I cant beat you on price. Do I think you are lowballing: No, I know for a fact you are not covering all your costs, and loosing potential profit.


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## SD40T2 (Dec 13, 2007)

when I say after expences I do factor in my fuel, insurance and maintence, the fact that my truck is a daily driver and I would have bought it any ways is also factored in but I feel that chargin extra for my truck payments for the small window we have in this buisness is is not nessisary for me, I don't go and buy top of the line decked out $40,000 dollar trucks I buy stripped down work trucks and currently I have a '04 Dakota with a used Curtis plow which came off a dakota and used 1 season that I paid 1k for when I bought the truck. I bought the truck new and I live 5mile from my job so it's low milage and I do all my routine maintenace in house and after 20 yrs have figured out how not to break my truck. I do have a back up plan in case of catastropic break down but I have been lucky in the last 20+ years, it works for me and I am happy. I realize the location has some bearing on pricing but we are in a rural area and the pricing is different here maybe the others estimate high so they won't get the job I don't know but it works for me. most of the larger operations around here fight over the commercial stuff and they can have it, we are around the lakes and you can really loose your a$$ doing commercial around here in a hurry which is the main reason I gave it up. I am not in this to get rich I cover my costs and make some money to suppliment my income during the winter months is all, where I am at right now is where I want to be I don't want to have multiple trucks and the added headaches that goes with it anymore.


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

Flawless440;1165877 said:


> I just had an idea while talking to the wife this morning. Form a "SnowPlow Contractor Union" Make it alittle pricey to join to keep out the lowballers. Market the hell out of to the customers. Within the union us contractors have set prices.
> 
> Lets here some feedback to improve this.
> 
> Who has the time to make it happen?


 I seldom throw around the term "low baller", quite honestly I just get sick of hearing it, especially when some of the ones who are always complaining the most...are a big part of the problem.

While I was out working and running errands the last several days, I couldn't help notice how poorly done the work is on so many lots in my area. I'm talking about half plowed lots, w/ 3-4' of snow hanging in the isle ways and parking spaces. I'm talking about parking areas that loose half or more of their parking, because of shotty work. Cars hanging halfway out in the isle, because they can't see where to park or can't pull in far enough, because the "want-a-be" who plowed it...never came back to clean it up. I'm not just talking about 1 or 2 snow events, I'm talking about snow that has been rolled on top of previous snows from weeks before. The general logic seems to be, "shrink the lot down...the smaller the lot gets, the less we have to plow, and the less salt we'll use as well."

So here's my New Years Resolution, I vow to have my camera w/ me at all times w/ charged batteries. I will start accumulating pictures of these places w/ the signage of the property. I will start a new thread (probably next month since we have a melt down coming in a few days)....unless someone here beats me to it. The new thread will be to call out "those who claim to be professional, but somehow just can't deliver." City and state posted w/ each pic entry.

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about messy lots while it's still snowing, or the parking spaces next to the front door of a business that's open 24/7, I'm also not even talking about over-sized snow piles because the owners of the lot may not want to pay for pile removal...I'm talking about pathetic workmanship, 48 hours or better after a storm has diminished. I'm also talking about snow drifts that grow off the curbs and piles, over the course of several days of light snow and wind...because the guy never checks his lots until the next major snow event.

What do you guys think? Good idea? Anybody want to accept the challenge?


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## OMGWTFBBQ (Sep 23, 2009)

I don't actually see a challenge in there. So you are going to go looking for crappy work and take pictures? What is the point? I can go around and take pictures of shoddy work from every level of pricing. We should be concentrating on doing top quality work ourselves and let the others fail on their own merit.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

coldcoffee;1169914 said:


> I seldom throw around the term "low baller", quite honestly I just get sick of hearing it, especially when some of the ones who are always complaining the most...are a big part of the problem.
> 
> While I was out working and running errands the last several days, I couldn't help notice how poorly done the work is on so many lots in my area. I'm talking about half plowed lots, w/ 3-4' of snow hanging in the isle ways and parking spaces. I'm talking about parking areas that loose half or more of their parking, because of shotty work. Cars hanging halfway out in the isle, because they can't see where to park or can't pull in far enough, because the "want-a-be" who plowed it...never came back to clean it up. I'm not just talking about 1 or 2 snow events, I'm talking about snow that has been rolled on top of previous snows from weeks before. The general logic seems to be, "shrink the lot down...the smaller the lot gets, the less we have to plow, and the less salt we'll use as well."
> 
> ...


I'm down, i got a few properties in mind right now. One is a plowsite member aswell.Thumbs Up


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

OMGWTFBBQ;1170206 said:


> I don't actually see a challenge in there. So you are going to go looking for crappy work and take pictures? What is the point? I can go around and take pictures of shoddy work from every level of pricing. We should be concentrating on doing top quality work ourselves and let the others fail on their own merit.


Well then, let me spell it out 4 u. Instead of complaining about it, it would be an opportunity to become more proactive for those of us who are serious about our careers, through the means of embarrassment and humiliation. "The Scarlet Letter", if you will. We have media news reporters, who do regular reports on dirty restaurants...by using the same means. Historically, it has worked for thousands of years. Thousands of visitors come here, many of whom are nonmembers, including property owners. It would be more like a wall of shame, for those who simply don't care to put out the effort that the job requires. Even those who never visit the site, would stand a reasonable chance of it getting back to them, weather it be property owner or contractor. Chances are they won't like it, and hopefully will want to do something about it. If they don't do something about it, it would create great opportunity for those of us who are serious. First, it would throw a red flag on properties that may be most likely to be accepting bids, for the following season (or sooner). Second, the pictures and/or thread, could be used as a sales tool when submitting bids to those prospective properties, just to clear up any amnesia the decision maker may have when it comes to signing the next deal, or for new management, since property managers themselves don't seem to last more than a year or two. Third, I think it would be a lot of fun, and would demonstrate to newcomers or those who "think they know", what an acceptable job should look like...I'm very confident, members would have no problem w/ critiquing a photo. So yea, it would be a means of calling out the alleged "Low Ballers", and a way of implementing some form of accountability, through the oldest and most effective means, historically speaking. BTW, I partially agree w/ letting them fail on their own merit, only problem is when they where themselves out in one community, they just slide over to the next. Market saturation is another problem, and the supply/ demand ratio will continue to grow out of synchronicity. It's foolish to believe that this problem will resolve itself, about as foolish to believe the economy and unemployment rate are improving. Those who don't know their history, are destined to repeat it.


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## OMGWTFBBQ (Sep 23, 2009)

I honestly don't think that any of that would matter other than the "upper class" getting a chance to "critique" and I use that word loosely. Unless you get the property owners to understand what poor job they are getting for their money, nothing will change. To many of them, the only thing that matters is the bottom dollar anyway. But have at it, don't let me stop you. Thanks for your clarification.


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## bigbadfordtruck (Mar 21, 2010)

Union is the last word I want my employees to here or talk about


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

This is a stupid thread


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## bigbadfordtruck (Mar 21, 2010)

A lowballer to me is someone who bought an old beat up chevy half ton truck that had an ancient meyer plow on it when he bought it, and then he decided to go into snow removal. He does not operate any other kind of business, he doesn't have a commercial line of insurance, and he doesn't have the capitol to operate any kind of business. He goes out and takes a few accounts away from real contractors because he has no idea how to price any work(making $40.00 an hour seems like alot to him). The first time we get a heavy wet snow his truck is broke down in one of his lots for four days, finally when the tow truck comes and gets it he finds out he can't afford the $3000.00 to fix the transmission(more then the truck and plow cost when he bought them) so the real contractors end up with the account back. I call them fly by nighters.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

BossPlow2010;1171336 said:


> This is a stupid thread


Why do you keep posting in it big guy?


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## dumbyankee (Jul 30, 2010)

Dose it matter if some one dose a crappy job? If a person is looking for a service, and dose not want to pay crap for it, do you realy want the job in the first place. The customers them selfs are getting what they pay for. If the customer is happy with the price they pay, and the service they are getting, let the have a sloppy lot. Will you go to a store and buy something if you have to strap on snow shoes to get in side? Not. If you look you can get some one to do your lot cheap, but you cant care what it looks like. It sucks, in this market every one is cutting what ever corner they can just to survive. 
As the market gets better I hope this year, You will see less beat up trucks running around, and fewer people in the biz. The reason: besides us yahoos who dont mind getting up in the middle of the night to plow, watching the weather and planning your life around it, who ealse is stupid enough to do this job?
By the way I just got a good deal on some 12 ga. 00 buck shot shells if the bas*ards keep this crap up. If all fails we will go back to the idea of blasting the crap out of them, as they drive by.


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