# Help suggestions with Bidding Central IL



## JT&SONS

Hello guys im looking for help and suggestion on bidding for commercial snow removal & de icing. So far i have 30 residentals and 3 acres of commercial 2 banks a car wash and a gas station.

Equipment will be 3/4 ton with BN 8.2 DXT still not sure on polly or stainless or if i should do wings or not. So suggestions welcome. Plow price OTD installed 7050 wings add 800.00 

Spreader im still on the fence about being in central IL we have a average of 21in a year with 3 to 4 major storms a year. So think i should be fine with a boss TGS 1100 but am considering a Vbox 8000 considering bulk salt is 75.00 a Ton it would save a ton of money over bagged 200.00 a ton prices are estimates from last years cost. So definatly any suggestions here would be great. TGs 1100 2000 with RT3 installed OTD Vbox 8000 used one season 4500 to 5k they werent sure yet. installed OTD a BN one they qouted 6k installed OTD.

Im not lazy and will read for my self if some one wants to link me to accurate and sticky worthy threads. With being a new company i dont have a ton spare time as i am sure niether do most of you. So i could use any help possiable. 

I dont have a back up truck but i do i have a back person that will cover my route if need be. Also have a bob cat and dump truck at my disposal if worst comes to worst.

Im mainly looking for solid advice on production rate for my plow and spreader. Also linear ft per hr on shoveling. I have my man hr rate cost factored just not sure of production hrs. 

Lastly is there any good seminars in the chicago area i could attend before the season starts?

Thanks for your help & advice.


----------



## BossPlow2010

Where are you getting salt for 75 a ton? 
I used to have a tailgate spreader, boy did that suck – Shoveling bulk into it.
Just remember, when you put a vbx in your bed you gain a big blind spot and doing all those residentials will be a pain in the ass.

How efficient you are will be based on expierence, if you’ve never plowed before, you won’t be that good. You will however become more efficient each time you plow.

Linear foot of shoveling would depend on how much snow there is, moisture content, fatigue, and your equipment.

Look into ASCA as well as SIMA for snow related seminars.

Remember this too when buying pricing, you don’t get that much snow in a season so if you price it wrong, it could take much longer to recoup your investment in equipment


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> Where are you getting salt for 75 a ton?
> I used to have a tailgate spreader, boy did that suck - Shoveling bulk into it.
> Just remember, when you put a vbx in your bed you gain a big blind spot and doing all those residentials will be a pain in the ass.
> 
> How efficient you are will be based on expierence, if you've never plowed before, you won't be that good. You will however become more efficient each time you plow.
> 
> Linear foot of shoveling would depend on how much snow there is, moisture content, fatigue, and your equipment.
> 
> Look into ASCA as well as SIMA for snow related seminars.
> 
> Remember this too when buying pricing, you don't get that much snow in a season so if you price it wrong, it could take much longer to recoup your investment in equipment


The 75 is what my bulk material suplier charged last year. Not sure on price for this year yet. Im leaning toward a TGS for a few years while i learn the ins and outs.

The cost of investment is what has been holding me back. The amoun of snow we get around here makes it hard to justify BN equipment but it brings me back to buy once cry once.

So if i fgure 30k per hr for plow would that be a starting point you think?


----------



## BossPlow2010

JT&SONS said:


> The 75 is what my bulk material suplier charged last year. Not sure on price for this year yet. Im leaning toward a TGS for a few years while i learn the ins and outs.
> 
> The cost of investment is what has been holding me back. The amoun of snow we get around here makes it hard to justify BN equipment but it brings me back to buy once cry once.
> 
> So if i fgure 30k per hr for plow would that be a starting point you think?


It's not $75 I can tell you that for sure right now. 30k sq ft to plow? Or 30k dollars per hour, the former is low for your setup for a 4" storm, the latter is higher than my kite


----------



## BossPlow2010

I hope you didn’t bid those properties thinking salt was 75 a ton, if you did either you’re ****ed or your clients are going to have quite the surprise when you bill them


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> It's not $75 I can tell you that for sure right now. 30k sq ft to plow? Or 30k dollars per hour, the former is low for your setup for a 4" storm, the latter is higher than my kite


Ok on the salt prices. Like i said i doubt i will use bulk the first year 2 unless i get convienced to drop the extra 3k. So i will be figuring around 250.00 Ton for bagged salt.

I was asking if 30,000 SQFT would be a good estimate of my production rate. I know there is a ton of variables like lot obsticales where i can pile snow traffic so on and so forth. Im sure most of that will come with exprience. Thanks for chiming in


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> I hope you didn't bid those properties thinking salt was 75 a ton, if you did either you're ****** or your clients are going to have quite the surprise when you bill them


No the banks i saw the bids from last year they were charged .26 a lb for salt. The residentals i will not offer salt dew to insurance reasons. The car wash & Gas station are kinda being handed to me so cost of salt has not been discussed yet they are waiting for me to let them know. Thats why i am on here trying to figure out salt costs and what charge.


----------



## JT&SONS

Does anyone else have any suggestions or advice. Im open to any advice and constructive criticism


----------



## Randall Ave

JT&SONS said:


> Does anyone else have any suggestions or advice. Im open to any advice and constructive criticism


Gas stations can be a real pain, and there are usually cheapscates. The car wash may be a pain during very cold periods. A friend of mine had one, the exit ramp was a constant ice slick.


----------



## Ajlawn1

JT&SONS said:


> Does anyone else have any suggestions or advice. Im open to any advice and constructive criticism


I would say 30k is low usually can figure an acre an hour... But difficulty factor comes in, more then a couple inches will drop that also etc... So your 3 acre parcel is going to be 3-4 hours with one truck, two banks, car wash and a gas station I have no clue as without some dimensions... Plus how far apart is everything? Gas station during the day... No thanks! And then 30 residents, unless they're side by side I'm not sure how you complete all this in less then 24hrs...


----------



## JT&SONS

Randall Ave said:


> Gas stations can be a real pain, and there are usually cheapscates. The car wash may be a pain during very cold periods. A friend of mine had one, the exit ramp was a constant ice slick.


Im reading that about gas stations i wonder if one chain is worse then the others. The station i am doing there is 6 of them the GM knows my ol man and was just giving me some work. and basically gave me one of 6 the one that is 8 blocks from my house

I can also see the car wash beeing slick at the exit ramp. Thanks for sharing if you think of any thing else please speak up. Also any good threads link them i will read for hrs.


----------



## Randall Ave

Gas stations, you better mark where the lids are, you rip up one of those, big bucks. And there is always a car in the way.


----------



## JT&SONS

Ajlawn1 said:


> I would say 30k is low usually can figure an acre an hour... But difficulty factor comes in, more then a couple inches will drop that also etc... So your 3 acre parcel is going to be 3-4 hours with one truck, two banks, car wash and a gas station I have no clue as without some dimensions... Plus how far apart is everything? Gas station during the day... No thanks! And then 30 residents, unless they're side by side I'm not sure how you complete all this in less then 24hrs...


My route is very condensed all my residentals are lawn care customers and are standered drives 20x20 they are all with 5 to 10 blocks of each other. The banks are split up but within 5 miles of each other gas station and wash are across the street from each other. Im thinking the residentals will run me 5hrs I used a 21in snow blower last year with my 2 boys shoveling and it took us 9hrs to do the residentals. Thanks for sharing if you have anything else to add please do so.


----------



## BossPlow2010

JT&SONS said:


> My route is very condensed all my residentals are lawn care customers and are standered drives 20x20 they are all with 5 to 10 blocks of each other. The banks are split up but within 5 miles of each other gas station and wash are across the street from each other. Im thinking the residentals will run me 5hrs I used a 21in snow blower last year with my 2 boys shoveling and it took us 9hrs to do the residentals. Thanks for sharing if you have anything else to add please do so.


Best time to do residentials is from 12 am to 6 am
That way no one can come out and chat you up, that seems to add an hour to your day. 
Oh, turn your strobes off when doing resis at night.


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> Best time to do residentials is from 12 am to 6 am
> That way no one can come out and chat you up, that seems to add an hour to your day.
> Oh, turn your strobes off when doing resis at night.


That is a good tip there. I have a problem with peope wantint to talk while im mowing. It puts me in a wierd situation cause i dont want to be rude but i need to get going.

Speaking of strobes thats one thing i havent thought about yet have any suggestions on where to purchase what to purchase anything?


----------



## JMHConstruction

JT&SONS said:


> Speaking of strobes thats one thing i havent thought about yet have any suggestions on where to purchase what to purchase anything?


I had a smaller whelen light bar on my plow truck and a cheap one from Northern Tool on my sidewalk truck.

Last year I didn't do sidewalks, and after the first night in my new lot (lots of plowing/salting between trailers) the flash back from the Whelen was so bright it gave me a headache and I ended up turning it off. After that I started using the cheap light.

The cheap light doesn't show up as well during the day, but is bright enough for me at night. It became my go to, but I did use the Wheln for brightness during a white out storm last year.

This what I used all last year
https://m.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200616886_200616886

Only had it 2 seasons, and I'm sure it wont last near as long as the name brand one. Definitely not as bright.

I think I paid $600 or so for the mini Whelen and $200 for the Northern Tool. Could be wrong, I don't really remember.

Edit: one thing I thought of with the cheaper one is the God awful spring coiled cord! Drives me nuts. Definitely something they should have put just a normal cord on like the Whelen


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> Where are you getting salt for 75 a ton?
> I used to have a tailgate spreader, boy did that suck - Shoveling bulk into it.
> Just remember, when you put a vbx in your bed you gain a big blind spot and doing all those residentials will be a pain in the ass.
> 
> How efficient you are will be based on expierence, if you've never plowed before, you won't be that good. You will however become more efficient each time you plow.
> 
> Linear foot of shoveling would depend on how much snow there is, moisture content, fatigue, and your equipment.
> 
> Look into ASCA as well as SIMA for snow related seminars.
> 
> Remember this too when buying pricing, you don't get that much snow in a season so if you price it wrong, it could take much longer to recoup your investment in equipment


Just talked with distributer they dont have prices locked in for sure yet. But he said its looking like 88 a ton bulk.
Bagged prices are delivered to my house
road salt +5 is 4.68x98 bags
Green Melt -5 is 6.98x49 bags
MVP 3way -15 is 7.38x49

Im still leaning torwards a tail gate spreader for the first year what did you guys start out with Vbox or tailgate? Also how do you guys estimate how much you will need espically for the green and blue for walks?


----------



## JMHConstruction

You may have already said and I missed it, but do you have a way to load and space to keep bulk for a vbox? If not, there's your answer.

I like my boss VBX8000, but did have some issues last year that became bigger than they should have. Learned my lesson on not having parts on the shelf, even for new equipment.


----------



## JT&SONS

JMHConstruction said:


> You may have already said and I missed it, but do you have a way to load and space to keep bulk for a vbox? If not, there's your answer.
> 
> I like my boss VBX8000, but did have some issues last year that became bigger than they should have. Learned my lesson on not having parts on the shelf, even for new equipment.


That's a very good point about storage and loading. I guess and correct me if I'm wrong for thinking like this.

What I was going to do was since my supplier for bulk salt is in my town i would weigh in they would load with end loader and I would weigh back out and on my way. This I figured would eliminate the need for storage or skid to load with.


----------



## JMHConstruction

JT&SONS said:


> That's a very good point about storage and loading. I guess and correct me if I'm wrong for thinking like this.
> 
> What I was going to do was since my supplier for bulk salt is in my town i would weigh in they would load with end loader and I would weigh back out and on my way. This I figured would eliminate the need for storage or skid to load with.


In a perfect world that may work.

Are they open during storms, 24 hrs?

How out of the way are they?

How busy will they be during a storm? Will you have a long wait?


----------



## JT&SONS

JMHConstruction said:


> In a perfect world that may work.
> 
> Are they open during storms, 24 hrs?
> 
> How out of the way are they?
> 
> How busy will they be during a storm? Will you have a long wait?


They are open 24-7 for major events

Lines are not to bad when i i am picking up rock mulch and those types of things.

As far as location they are probably 5 miles from my house.


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> Speaking of strobes thats one thing i havent thought about yet have any suggestions on where to purchase what to purchase anything?


Stobes n more is who I got mine threw. They are a site sponsor on Plowsite.

I have the Strobes n more house brand E6 nex gens on my truck. White/ Amber in color. Plenty bright. http://www.strobesnmore.com/Strobes-N-More-E6-Super-LED.html

@*Strobesnmore

*


----------



## JT&SONS

can you guys give me a idea of how you price your jobs? 
Do you do seasonal contracts per push by the amount or what a little detail with some numbers would be great. I know my numbers will be different just to give me some sort of idea. I'm starting to get quit a few requests for snow removal quotes and i want to be sure I'm not low balling.


----------



## Luther

It's best to ask your potential client what kind of pricing they are looking for. They may want it priced a particular way.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Luther said:


> It's best to ask your potential client what kind of pricing they are looking for. They may want it priced a particular way.


They do?


----------



## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> They do?


Would you leave him alone....He rarely comes out of hiding anymore...I think posting has a direct connection with Budweiser intake


----------



## JMHConstruction

JT&SONS said:


> They are open 24-7 for major events
> 
> Lines are not to bad when i i am picking up rock mulch and those types of things.
> 
> As far as location they are probably 5 miles from my house.


What about minor events? My boss dealer said they open during major events, but I still don't know what qualifies for "major"

I would ask about their waits and how long their lines get next time you're there. I bet it gets busy during storms.

If it sounds like this would work, to me the tailgate vs vbox is a no brainer. I would hate loading bags all night


----------



## John_DeereGreen

There is no way I would rely on a supplier to load me. I don't care what they say their hours are, etc. Especially given the current market volatility on salt. 

My customers wouldn't give 2 ****s that my supplier couldn't load me, or couldn't get salt. All they know is their properties aren't salted per our contract. Not a situation I would want to put myself in.


----------



## JMHConstruction

I would at least want to talk to someone else who's done it at that location before assuming it would work.

Worst case I guess he could load bags into the vbox.


----------



## JMHConstruction

When buying from a supplier like that, what do you do with the extra salt in your hopper?


----------



## JT&SONS

I don't want to have load bags but i do have 4 boys in there mid 20s that are full of piss and vinegar. Just found out today the car wash does there own salting so one less property i will ave to worry about. 

So how do you break up plowing price by amount do you figure on every 2 inches or so for say like residential 2 inch trigger 2-6 is 30 6-10 45 or what?


----------



## BossPlow2010

JMHConstruction said:


> When buying from a supplier like that, what do you do with the extra salt in your hopper?


I used to store my excess salt in trash bins, now I keep it in a storage unit.


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> I used to store my excess salt in trash bins, now I keep it in a storage unit.


Storage unit?


----------



## BossPlow2010

JT&SONS said:


> Storage unit?


Ya one of these things you put crap in that you'll never use again


----------



## JMHConstruction

BossPlow2010 said:


> Ya one of these things you put crap in that you'll never use again


I operate out of 2

Nothing makes me feel more professional than opening up my storage unit every morning:hammerhead:


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> Ya one of these things you put crap in that you'll never use again


what do you store the salt in


----------



## Randall Ave

JT&SONS said:


> what do you store the salt in


Depending on your location, the DEP, or whatever may have regulations on salt storage.


----------



## BossPlow2010

JT&SONS said:


> what do you store the salt in


The storage unit...

it's on concrete that's on a sodium free diet


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> The storage unit...
> 
> it's on concrete that's on a sodium free diet


I don't think my storage facility would allow me to do that. I was planning on putting my bags in there but not bulk


----------



## JMHConstruction

I'm not supposed to hide fugitives in mine, but...

Nevermind, I've said too much


----------



## Philbilly2

BossPlow2010 said:


> I used to store my excess salt in trash bins, now I keep it in a storage unit.


Bulk or bags?

Used to stock extra bags on skids in different storage units close to sites back when we did bags. Made it easy during a long event that you did not have to go all the way back to the shop.

Once I went to bulk, we dumped a load in the parking lot and tarped it.


----------



## BossPlow2010

Philbilly2 said:


> Bulk or bags?
> 
> Used to stock extra bags on skids in different storage units close to sites back when we did bags. Made it easy during a long event that you did not have to go all the way back to the shop.
> 
> Once I went to bulk, we dumped a load in the parking lot and tarped it.


Bulk, I store bags of deicer in a few different spots, but I try to make sure I have half a dozen or so in my truck all the time


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Allow me to provide one piece of hopefully useful advice when bidding:

Do not tell your customers that you will be working slower because you don't want to work yourself out of a job. No matter how you bid...seasonal, per inch, per push.


----------



## Ajlawn1

Philbilly2 said:


> we dumped a load in the parking lot and tarped it.


That's cruel, you know someone would look under the tarp....


----------



## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Allow me to provide one piece of hopefully useful advice when bidding:
> 
> Do not tell your customers that you will be working slower because you don't want to work yourself out of a job. No matter how you bid...seasonal, per inch, per push.


What about working Smarter......Not harder??


----------



## Defcon 5

Ajlawn1 said:


> That's cruel, you know someone would look under the tarp....


----------



## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> Allow me to provide one piece of hopefully useful advice when bidding:
> 
> Do not tell your customers that you will be working slower because you don't want to work yourself out of a job. No matter how you bid...seasonal, per inch, per push.


----------



## JT&SONS

So whats your guy's opinion on joining SIMA? I'm not finding much info to help with bidding. I have read that SIMA is supposed to have a lot of that information available but dang they want 300.00 bucks a year. I could use help with contract templates and those things as well. Thanks for your time


----------



## Mark Oomkes

I wouldn't...it's not a union shop.


----------



## cwren2472

Most industry groups are just like unions anyway.

Take your cash, make you part of "the group", promise to make your job much better, and deliver Meh.


----------



## BUFF

cwren2472 said:


> Most industry groups are just like unions anyway.
> 
> Take your cash, make you part of "the group", promise to make your job much better, and deliver Meh.


Good thing PlowSite is free....


----------



## BossPlow2010

JT&SONS said:


> So whats your guy's opinion on joining SIMA? I'm not finding much info to help with bidding. I have read that SIMA is supposed to have a lot of that information available but dang they want 300.00 bucks a year. I could use help with contract templates and those things as well. Thanks for your time


Will it make you money? Will you be able to go up to a potential client hold up your SIMA logo and say I'm a member of this association and they hire you on the spot? 
You can still take the classes that sima offers without being a member, you can even go to their symposium. 
One thing I've noticed is some of the best keynote speakers I've heard have absolutely no affiliation to the snow industry. Granted, there are some pretty knowledgeable people out there and if you hang around this site long enough you'll see who they are. There's other websites out there that have knowledgeable folk on them as well, but it's a swear word here so I can't tell you.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BossPlow2010 said:


> Will it make you money? Will you be able to go up to a potential client hold up your SIMA logo and say I'm a member of this association and they hire you on the spot?
> You can still take the classes that sima offers without being a member, you can even go to their symposium.
> One thing I've noticed is some of the best keynote speakers I've heard have absolutely no affiliation to the snow industry. Granted, there are some pretty knowledgeable people out there and if you hang around this site long enough you'll see who they are. There's other websites out there that have knowledgeable folk on them as well, but it's a swear word here so I can't tell you.


Lawnsite????


----------



## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> Lawnsite????


Doubt it... I was looking around there for information today... I think I will just take a wild guess... I think it will be much more educated.


----------



## Philbilly2

cwren2472 said:


> Take your cash, make you part of "the group", promise to make your job much better, and deliver Meh.


LOL...

spoken like someone who has never been a part of a union...


----------



## Defcon 5

I’m gonna differ with my esteemed colleagues on this one...I think there is plenty of stuff SIMA can offer a guy starting out...If you take advantage of what they are offering...Knowledge and education can go a long way in this business...A basic business class probably would not hurt either


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> A basic business class probably would not hurt either


Union professor?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> So whats your guy's opinion on joining SIMA? I'm not finding much info to help with bidding. I have read that SIMA is supposed to have a lot of that information available but dang they want 300.00 bucks a year. I could use help with contract templates and those things as well. Thanks for your time


I have some serious issues with the way SIMA does certain things.

However, it is a fantastic resource. For someone who knows little to nothing about snow it is priceless. I thought I knew a lot when I went to my first Symposium in 2000, I was shocked. Haven't been to one in awhile, something about a GPS tether...not being allowed to leave the state...something like that. I might go next year since it's in GR.


----------



## BossPlow2010

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have some serious issues with the way SIMA does certain things.
> 
> However, it is a fantastic resource. For someone who knows little to nothing about snow it is priceless. I thought I knew a lot when I went to my first Symposium in 2000, I was shocked. Haven't been to one in awhile, something about a GPS tether...not being allowed to leave the state...something like that. I might go next year since it's in GR.


You won't have time to go next year, you'll be bizzy setting up for the party at your house


----------



## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have some serious issues with the way SIMA does certain things.
> 
> However, it is a fantastic resource. For someone who knows little to nothing about snow it is priceless. I thought I knew a lot when I went to my first Symposium in 2000, I was shocked. Haven't been to one in awhile, something about a GPS tether...not being allowed to leave the state...something like that. I might go next year since it's in GR.


You are going since me,Buffy,Fred,Lapeer,Philbilly,Sno,AJ and anyone else that wants to go are staying at your house....The Plowlord is probably staying at a Hotel...He needs a place to plug in his curlers


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> You are going since me,Buffy,Fred,Lapeer,Philbilly,Sno,AJ and anyone else that wants to go are staying at your house....The Plowlord is probably staying at a Hotel...He needs a place to plug in his curlers


Just checked my calendar...I'll be in Timbuktu that week.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BossPlow2010 said:


> You won't have time to go next year, you'll be bizzy setting up for the party at your house


Disagreed...


----------



## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Just checked my calendar...I'll be in Timbuktu that week.


Horsehockey....The CFO is gonna be Furious...I will bring Ryan to keep her company talking about woman things....Do you know what would be the cherry on top of the weekend....Getting MJD to go..I just picture you two sitting around the campfire sipping on Zimas


----------



## BossPlow2010

Mark Oomkes said:


> Disagreed...


I'll have beer and jackoff lights on my truck.


----------



## Defcon 5

BossPlow2010 said:


> I'll have beer and jackoff lights on my truck.


Easy there....It's Jagoof....


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Horsehockey


OK Sherm



Defcon 5 said:


> The CFO is gonna be Furious


She already is ferious...



Defcon 5 said:


> I will bring Ryan to keep her company talking about woman things


That's nice...



Defcon 5 said:


> Getting MJD to go..I just picture you two sitting around the campfire sipping on Zimas


He's bizzie...


----------



## BossPlow2010

Defcon 5 said:


> Horsehockey....The CFO is gonna be Furious...I will bring Ryan to keep her company talking about woman things....Do you know what would be the cherry on top of the weekend....Getting MJD to go..I just picture you two sitting around the campfire sipping on Zimas


MJD would have a stroke with all the people you're inviting, that's the "banned from plowsite club" at the king of the playgrounds house


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Wait...if you come Todd does that mean you'll got to Founders, New Holland and Perrins with me?


----------



## BossPlow2010

Mark Oomkes said:


> Wait...if you come Todd does that mean you'll got to Founders, New Holland and Perrins with me?


I can see it now


----------



## BUFF

BossPlow2010 said:


> MJD would have a stroke with all the people you're inviting, that's the "banned from plowsite club" at the king of the playgrounds house


I'd be good to get Sno there to mix things up a bit....


----------



## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Wait...if you come Todd does that mean you'll got to Founders, New Holland and Perrins with me?


You bet...


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> You bet...


I don't believe you...you'll pull a Ryan.


----------



## Ajlawn1

BossPlow2010 said:


> I can see it now
> View attachment 183290


Fixed it for ya... You forgot their matching jorts...


----------



## Defcon 5

AJ....Were you out taking pictures today??


----------



## FredG

Defcon 5 said:


> View attachment 183307
> AJ....Were you out taking pictures today??


----------



## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> Just checked my calendar...I'll be in Timbuktu that week.


It is ok... we don't need you actually there to have a party at your place...:laugh:


----------



## JT&SONS

How much would you guys charge per push for this double lot. 15k sqft total Its a sorority house so there will be cars IN the way. Does 12 lbs per 1ksqft sound about right? For salt. I figure that's 530 lbs a acre. Figured . 26 cents per lb would cost 50.00 for salt 80.00 per push $130.00 per push total


----------



## JT&SONS




----------



## BossPlow2010

JT&SONS said:


> How much would you guys charge per push for this double lot. 15k sqft total Its a sorority house so there will be cars IN the way. Does 12 lbs per 1ksqft sound about right? For salt. I figure that's 530 lbs a acre. Figured . 26 cents per lb would cost 50.00 for salt 80.00 per push $130.00 per push total


How'd you come up with those numbers?


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> How'd you come up with those numbers?


. 26 cents a lb is the average cost I have been seeing in the area for salt. From what I can gather the average salt application is 500lbs per acre which figures out to he around 12 lbs per 1k. So that's how I got my salt price. I looked over several bids in the area to see what a truck and plow was going for 90 to 150 a hr was what I have been seeing. So I figured 120.00 puts it right in the middle and is a nice round 2.00 a minute which is what I shoot for on everyday work obviously I don't get it but never go lower the 1.00 a min except when mowing I only average..88 cents a min.

But that's the crazy mess I went through to figure those numbers out.


----------



## JT&SONS

To be honest it's hard finding solid numbers to use for reference. I know my buddy is paid 80.00 hr for him and his truck with no salter. So the guy he works for has to be charging at least a 100 hr


----------



## BossPlow2010

JT&SONS said:


> . 26 cents a lb is the average cost I have been seeing in the area for salt. From what I can gather the average salt application is 500lbs per acre which figures out to he around 12 lbs per 1k. So that's how I got my salt price. I looked over several bids in the area to see what a truck and plow was going for 90 to 150 a hr was what I have been seeing. So I figured 120.00 puts it right in the middle and is a nice round 2.00 a minute which is what I shoot for on everyday work obviously I don't get it but never go lower the 1.00 a min except when mowing I only average..88 cents a min.
> 
> But that's the crazy mess I went through to figure those numbers out.


So what will your net profit per hour be?


----------



## Philbilly2

What do YOU need to cover YOUR overhead?

Do you know this number?

Shooting to “make a number” is a race to the bottom if you don’t know what your overall nut is per hour. If it costs you $2.12 cents a minute to cover all your costs and you are shooting for $2.00 so you are “right in the middle”, well, you can figure out the rest.


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> To be honest it's hard finding solid numbers to use for reference. I know my buddy is paid 80.00 hr for him and his truck with no salter. So the guy he works for has to be charging at least a 100 hr


Is your buddy making money at that rate?

What do his margins look like at that rate?

Could he stick an employee in that truck and still make money?

Could he stick a legal W-2 employee, that he has to pay state, feds, SS, 401k, with workers comp and everything else in that truck and still make money?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Who knew running a bizness and paying employees legally and buying\maintaining\replacing equipment could be so complicated. Then there's that whole profit thing. 

Gotta keep the shareholders happy...even if the shareholders are the sole propietor and his wife. 

And then one has to be efficient, so one must require his employees to work hard to maintain efficiency so one can pay employees, buy\maintain\replace equipment. And make a profit so hopefully the employees are working their hardest and not slacking. Gotta keep groceries on the table, utilities paid, mortgage, etc. 

Sigh...managing a profitable bizness has a lot of different aspects to it.


----------



## Randall Ave

JT&SONS said:


> To be honest it's hard finding solid numbers to use for reference. I know my buddy is paid 80.00 hr for him and his truck with no salter. So the guy he works for has to be charging at least a 100 hr


What does it cost your Bud to run his truck per hour?


----------



## JT&SONS

BossPlow2010 said:


> So what will your net profit per hour be?


60.00 a hr. That's after the business making 20% taxes & everything. This also includes all my over head for lawn care and landscape. So since a lot of that equipment will not be used that number is going to grow. That has 35k in mowers figured in and figuring on replacing mowers every 2 years. Which will not happen it will be more like 3-4 years when I flip them.

It's hard to say with snow removal my cost to operate goes down substantially. I have a truck a plow a salter salt insurance fuel taxes repairs to think about. Unless I'm forgetting something


----------



## JT&SONS

Randall Ave said:


> What does it cost your Bud to run his truck per hour?


This I have no clue he is a finisher by trade and just plows for extra money. I'm sure he doesn't even know.


----------



## Randall Ave

JT&SONS said:


> 60.00 a hr. That's after the business making 20% taxes & everything. This also includes all my over head for lawn care and landscape. So since a lot of that equipment will not be used that number is going to grow. That has 35k in mowers figured in and figuring on replacing mowers every 2 years. Which will not happen it will be more like 3-4 years when I flip them.
> 
> It's hard to say with snow removal my cost to operate goes down substantially. I have a truck a plow a salter salt insurance fuel taxes repairs to think about. Unless I'm forgetting something


Employees?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Operating costs go down during plowing operations?

News to me.

I am very confident you don't understand this industry at all.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

If operating costs are less for plowing vs mowing, why are you and everyone else charging more?


----------



## JT&SONS

Randall Ave said:


> Employees?


Im going to use a


Mark Oomkes said:


> If operating costs are less for plowing vs mowing, why are you and everyone else charging more?


My operating cost will consist of a truck and plow a snow blower salt salter insurance and 2 shovelers.

When I'm running my mowing crew that's 4 mowers 4 string trimmers 2 trucks 2 trailers 4 guys and so on. Big difference in cost. The fuel cost with plowing is the only thing I see even being close to the same.

Charging a higher rate has to be area not a lot of people to compete with so the price doesn't get driven down like it does in a heavy snowfall area where everyone and there brother has a plow and truck. On the flip side to that I might only get to us that plow once or twice a year. Where heavy snow area with lots of competition might plow 20 times.


----------



## JT&SONS

Randall Ave said:


> Employees?


My wife who is owner operator and the youngest boy will be shoveling this year. To see how things work out.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> When I'm running my mowing crew that's 4 mowers 4 string trimmers 2 trucks 2 trailers 4 guys and so on. Big difference in cost. The fuel cost with plowing is the only thing I see even being close to the same.


Oi vey...



JT&SONS said:


> Charging a higher rate has to be area not a lot of people to compete with so the price doesn't get driven down like it does in a heavy snowfall area where everyone and there brother has a plow and truck. On the flip side to that I might only get to us that plow once or twice a year. Where heavy snow area with lots of competition might plow 20 times.


Oi vey again...

I don't even know where to start.

FWIW, pretty sure most would consider my area "high snow". Not nearly as high as others, but at least twice what you receive. My plowing rate is around 200-250% higher than mowing rate.

I'll say it again, you don't understand this industry at all.


----------



## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> Oi vey...
> 
> Oi vey again...
> 
> I don't even know where to start.
> 
> FWIW, pretty sure most would consider my area "high snow". Not nearly as high as others, but at least twice what you receive. My plowing rate is around 200-250% higher than mowing rate.
> 
> I'll say it again, you don't understand this industry at all.


Thanks for the help. I bet when you started you were perfect. Why don't you piss off and find someone else to be little. I sure as **** wouldn't be on here if busting people's balls all damn day to make myself feel better if I did know the ins and outs. That's for sure.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> Thanks for the help. I bet when you started you were perfect. Why don't you piss off and find someone else to be little


#1 You're welcome.
#2 Never said I was, never claimed I was. But I knew and know when to ask what I don't know that I need to know.
#3 I was trying to help. I'm not belittling you at all. I'm stating facts. You don't understand this industry. It isn't like mowing. At all, other than you use the same truck.

But fine, I will stop helping you. Keep up the attitude and others will stop as well. Everyone has been trying to help, despite your lack of understanding of economics and business.

PS I've been plowing for 40 years, running my business for over 20. I will state factually that costs DO NOT go down during plowing operations. Buh bye


----------



## Mike_PS

alright, no need for a further whizzing match...


----------



## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> #1 You're welcome.
> #2 Never said I was, never claimed I was. But I knew and know when to ask what I don't know that I need to know.
> #3 I was trying to help. I'm not belittling you at all. I'm stating facts. You don't understand this industry. It isn't like mowing. At all, other than you use the same truck.
> 
> But fine, I will stop helping you. Keep up the attitude and others will stop as well. Everyone has been trying to help, despite your lack of understanding of economics and business.
> 
> PS I've been plowing for 40 years, running my business for over 20. I will state factually that costs DO NOT go down during plowing operations. Buh bye


You have not tried to help one time. You have made comment after comment telling my I don't know this I don't know that. Ive had enough. If you don't have a constructive comments then keep your mouth shut. I can handle the fact I don't know ****. Never tried to say I do. I'm trying to start a business from the ground up with my own ****ing money not have one handed to me or financed by my parents grandparents friends banks. NO ONE BUT MYSELF. I came on this forum to ask a question about the f250 since you feel the f250 is junk and I do not you have taken it upon yourself to bash my every move. I have refrained from saying anything thinking one day you will get tired of being a jerk. But damn you just don't know how to quit. Constantly bashing my way of thinking or the things I say.

That's fine take your 40 years of knowledge to your grave that's impressive what a waste.


----------



## cwren2472

JT&SONS said:


> thinking one day you will get tired of being a jerk.


Good luck with that


----------



## Mike_PS

JT&SONS said:


> You have not tried to help one time. You have made comment after comment telling my I don't know this I don't know that. Ive had enough. If you don't have a constructive comments then keep your mouth shut. I can handle the fact I don't know ****. Never tried to say I do. I'm trying to start a business from the ground up with my own ******* money not have one handed to me or financed by my parents grandparents friends banks. NO ONE BUT MYSELF. I came on this forum to ask a question about the f250 since you feel the f250 is junk and I do not you have taken it upon yourself to bash my every move. I have refrained from saying anything thinking one day you will get tired of being a jerk. But damn you just don't know how to quit. Constantly bashing my way of thinking or the things I say.
> 
> That's fine take your 40 years of knowledge to your grave that's impressive what a waste.


absolutely NO need for the language or personal attacks


----------



## Ajlawn1

Michael J. Donovan said:


> alright, no need for a further whizzing match...


Yeah remember Mark's yard that'll be tough to beat...


----------



## FredG

JT&SONS said:


> You have not tried to help one time. You have made comment after comment telling my I don't know this I don't know that. Ive had enough. If you don't have a constructive comments then keep your mouth shut. I can handle the fact I don't know ****. Never tried to say I do. I'm trying to start a business from the ground up with my own ******* money not have one handed to me or financed by my parents grandparents friends banks. NO ONE BUT MYSELF. I came on this forum to ask a question about the f250 since you feel the f250 is junk and I do not you have taken it upon yourself to bash my every move. I have refrained from saying anything thinking one day you will get tired of being a jerk. But damn you just don't know how to quit. Constantly bashing my way of thinking or the things I say.
> 
> That's fine take your 40 years of knowledge to your grave that's impressive what a waste.


 Okay no sense in cracking, Oomkes is Oomkes and will help you. Most of a Guys are old school, some banter is to be expected especially if your not answering direct questions to you.

If your having trouble with your bottom line, operating cost it is tough for anyone to help you with it unless you want your biz on the net. Your liability's could be higher than ours. You have to sit down and put all your #'s together as everybody suggested above, Commercial auto, Gl, WC, Fuel, employee's, materials and storage all of what is going out.

My suggestion to you is there is 3 of you in your snow and ice season so you know your cost there. Invest in everything you need, apparently you have the truck and plow, Buy the spreader even used but has to be reconditioning if needed. You need to invest in a load of bulk salt and figure a reasonable place to store it.

You need a backup plan, New trucks go down too. regardless if you have another truck or a reliable contractor. If your not worried about backup you will fail. Put your cost together and the profit your comfortable with and get your feet wet. When Oomkes states you know nothing about the industry don't get all fired up, He's been in it a long time and his Father and maybe his Grandfather before him.

Try to take the banner along with the good. Endless knowledge here and I'm a FOG. Do what is suggested to you and don't be scared, Commit to it and get a season in just cover your butt. Don't go away with a sore but and Good Luck to you.


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> 60.00 a hr. That's after the business making 20% taxes & everything.


If you can profit $60 per hr plowing snow after all your costs and overhead is paid for, some of us should be learning from you not your learning from us.


----------



## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> If you can profit $60 per hr plowing snow after all your costs and overhead is paid for, some of us should be learning from you not your learning from us.


 $20.00 to $25.00 is more like it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## JT&SONS

Philbilly2 said:


> If you can profit $60 per hr plowing snow after all your costs and overhead is paid for, some of us should be learning from you not your learning from us.


To be honest, I have no clue I know I need to make 40 an hr for the business to operate and make a 20% profit. That's including paying me back the 50k I invested over 10 years. I paid cash for all my equipment and my truck. So I have no overhead there just replacement cost and repairs. I have sat down with a buddy of mine who owns a multi-million dollar excavating plumbing company and he told me that after 40hr im in the green and if I can average 80hr total for all work performed I would do very well. He is not involved in snow removal so he is no help there.


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> To be honest, I have no clue I know I need to make 40 an hr for the business to operate and make a 20% profit. That's including paying me back the 50k I invested over 10 years. I paid cash for all my equipment and my truck. So I have no overhead there just replacement cost and repairs. I have sat down with a buddy of mine who owns a multi-million dollar excavating plumbing company and he told me that after 40hr im in the green and if I can average 80hr total for all work performed I would do very well. He is not involved in snow removal so he is no help there.


How much do you pay your boys annually? And I think you said your wife works for the Corp too? Her compensation?
How much insurance do you carry?
Have you had to pay income tax yet?

I just can't get to those numbers with any form of payroll involved.

What am I missing?


----------



## JT&SONS

My wife does not take any payment she works a 9-5 from home with a 6 figure income. I pay myself 10hr and my boys 10hr for now while we build. I carry 1-2 mill ins. 60k equipment coverage
I have paid 6k in income tax


----------



## EWSplow

JT&SONS said:


> To be honest, I have no clue I know I need to make 40 an hr for the business to operate and make a 20% profit. That's including paying me back the 50k I invested over 10 years. I paid cash for all my equipment and my truck. So I have no overhead there just replacement cost and repairs. I have sat down with a buddy of mine who owns a multi-million dollar excavating plumbing company and he told me that after 40hr im in the green and if I can average 80hr total for all work performed I would do very well. He is not involved in snow removal so he is no help there.


If I understand correctly, You've invested $50k & want full return in 10 years. Now, in 10 years most of your equipment will be close to worthless, so you would need $100k + add for price increases.
You might do alright figuring your truck with you plowing at $80/hr, but if you're bidding against others, you may be leaving a bit too much on the table. 
I hope this makes sense.


----------



## cwren2472

$50k in 10 years? We are shooting for a cool $5,000 a year in profit and paying yourself below minimum wage in many states?


----------



## JT&SONS

EWSplow said:


> If I understand correctly, You've invested $50k & want full return in 10 years. Now, in 10 years most of your equipment will be close to worthless, so you would need $100k + add for price increases.
> You might do alright figuring your truck with you plowing at $80/hr, but if you're bidding against others, you may be leaving a bit too much on the table.
> I hope this makes sense.


Yes that makes sense what we did was take the replacement cost of all my equipment and figured it over 4 years for some of it like mowers and things stuff that will yield a ok return when sold since I don't beat on my stuff and keep it looking nice I should be able to sell each mower for between 3500 and 5500 that's not figured into the numbers though that's a bonus. so I don't get anything for it im not at a loss. I went as far as breaking it down to what each piece of equipment needs to make a day. I figured all my numbers on a 4 day work week so 5th day is completely profit. I'm going, to be honest, My buddy did a lot of the math and figures so it's hard for me to explain how did everything. His business is in its 40th year and makes around 5mill a year so I fully trust him but I am nowhere near as smart as him.

I had to quit high school at 17 get a job support twin boys and a wife so nothing has ever been handed to me and nothing has ever stopped me from getting to where I am now. I came here for help and appreciate any all help that's been given. Thanks for your time


----------



## BossPlow2010

JT&SONS said:


> To be honest, I have no clue


 phew glad that only took 6 pages, and someone pointed it out earlier too.

I would suggest you subcontract for a company for the first couple years, learn the ropes and such.


----------



## JT&SONS

cwren2472 said:


> $50k in 10 years? We are shooting for a cool $5,000 a year in profit and paying yourself below minimum wage in many states?


I pay myself like 400 a month towards the 50k. Ag


BossPlow2010 said:


> phew glad that only took 6 pages, and someone pointed it out earlier too.
> 
> I would suggest you subcontract for a company for the first couple years, learn the ropes and such.


I'm planning on it but I have a few contacts that I need to be able to bid myself due to a package deal no way around it. Its the only reason I'm buying a plow was to keep the contracts. Plus all my residential i was using a shovel and snow blower my back can't take that anymore im only 40 and had back surgery twice all ready from the type of work have always done there are to many over 30 want snow removal now


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> Yes that makes sense what we did was take the replacement cost of all my equipment and figured it over 4 years for some of it like mowers and things stuff that will yield a ok return when sold since I don't beat on my stuff and keep it looking nice I should be able to sell each mower for between 3500 and 5500 that's not figured into the numbers though that's a bonus. so I don't get anything for it im not at a loss. I went as far as breaking it down to what each piece of equipment needs to make a day. I figured all my numbers on a 4 day work week so 5th day is completely profit. I'm going, to be honest, My buddy did a lot of the math and figures so it's hard for me to explain how did everything. His business is in its 40th year and makes around 5mill a year so I fully trust him but I am nowhere near as smart as him.
> 
> I had to quit high school at 17 get a job support twin boys and a wife so nothing has ever been handed to me and nothing has ever stopped me from getting to where I am now. I came here for help and appreciate any all help that's been given. Thanks for your time


I'm just a curious lad here as we are in the same area... what is the name of this buddies company? Might be someone I have worked with as I am in a similar line of work.


----------



## JT&SONS

Philbilly2 said:


> I'm just a curious lad here as we are in the same area... what is the name of this buddies company? Might be someone I have worked with as I am in a similar line of work.


GA Rich & Sons


----------



## plow4beer

To the OP-
1. Research this site...thoroughly...you’ll be humbled
2. Mark Oompes, for the most part, knows what he’s talking about...hes just not great in his ways of getting his point across...purposely trying to piss you off and be-little you, while in the same motion provide you with sound advice. And btw, you had most of it coming, because you refused to listen.
3. Don’t take your buddies advice to the bank and guarantee he’s right about how “you” should start a business from the ground up....I’ll bet he didn’t start that company himself, and has no clue about sacrifice, or the blood/sweat/tears that comes with starting from the ground up.

Now next to my post, the best advice you’ve been given, considering your lack of knowledge about the industry, is to go sub for a yr or 2.....and then see if it’s something you even want to continue doing.

Btw, what part of central IL you in, I may know of some reputable companies in that area looking for good subs. Don’t worry, none of them pay in beer, I already have that market sowed up.


----------



## FredG

plow4beer said:


> To the OP-
> 1. Research this site...thoroughly...you'll be humbled
> 2. Mark Oompes, for the most part, knows what he's talking about...hes just not great in his ways of getting his point across...purposely trying to piss you off and be-little you, while in the same motion provide you with sound advice. And btw, you had most of it coming, because you refused to listen.
> 3. Don't take your buddies advice to the bank and guarantee he's right about how "you" should start a business from the ground up....I'll bet he didn't start that company himself, and has no clue about sacrifice, or the blood/sweat/tears that comes with starting from the ground up.
> 
> Now next to my post, the best advice you've been given, considering your lack of knowledge about the industry, is to go sub for a yr or 2.....and then see if it's something you even want to continue doing.
> 
> Btw, what part of central IL you in, I may know of some reputable companies in that area looking for good subs. Don't worry, none of them pay in beer, I already have that market sowed up.


 What's up besides keeping all the beer stores in biz?


----------



## FredG

JT&SONS said:


> Yes that makes sense what we did was take the replacement cost of all my equipment and figured it over 4 years for some of it like mowers and things stuff that will yield a ok return when sold since I don't beat on my stuff and keep it looking nice I should be able to sell each mower for between 3500 and 5500 that's not figured into the numbers though that's a bonus. so I don't get anything for it im not at a loss. I went as far as breaking it down to what each piece of equipment needs to make a day. I figured all my numbers on a 4 day work week so 5th day is completely profit. I'm going, to be honest, My buddy did a lot of the math and figures so it's hard for me to explain how did everything. His business is in its 40th year and makes around 5mill a year so I fully trust him but I am nowhere near as smart as him.
> 
> I had to quit high school at 17 get a job support twin boys and a wife so nothing has ever been handed to me and nothing has ever stopped me from getting to where I am now. I came here for help and appreciate any all help that's been given. Thanks for your time


 I'm not much on borrowing money, I do have a line of credit on my home I use now and then, cash flow etc. If I take $10K I like to see it payed back in 120 days. Long investments will wear you out.


----------



## Philbilly2

I got one of their coozies in my gator.

I like the saying on the back


----------



## Mark Oomkes

I feel the need to defend myself.



plow4beer said:


> Mark Oompes, for the most part, knows what he's talking about


Stop, you're going to ruin my reputation.



plow4beer said:


> hes just not great in his ways of getting his point across


I'm not?



plow4beer said:


> purposely trying to piss you off and be-little you, while in the same motion provide you with sound advice.


I did not belittle anyone. I stated the truth. A few posts later the OP admitted what I said. Rather hypocritical if you ask me.

I've said it before, it's the give a man a fish and he eats for a day vs teach a man to fish and he eats for life philosophy.

And the OP doesn't realize that his "buddy" just gave him a fish by running all the numbers for him and handing them over but not teaching him how to figure it on his own. HIS WORDS.



plow4beer said:


> And btw, you had most of it coming, because you refused to listen.


Agreed

FWIW, I find it extremely hypocritical that someone would take the advice of another business owner that's never done snow and ice management but has been in business 40 years while getting ticked at someone who has been in the snow and ice management business for almost that long that is telling him he is wrong about his thoughts of operating cost going down during snow operations. Like it or not, I was being truthful. Your costs WILL NOT GO DOWN while plowing. That's why I asked why people charge 2-3 times MORE for plowing than mowing.

Besides that, the rest of my advice whether it was regarding a 6.0 or SIMA was 100% valid and based on real life experience. MINE. You don't have to like me, but I have provided sound, real life advice based on experience.


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> I feel the need to defend myself.
> 
> Stop, you're going to ruin my reputation.
> 
> I'm not?
> 
> I did not belittle anyone. I stated the truth. A few posts later the OP admitted what I said. Rather hypocritical if you ask me.
> 
> I've said it before, it's the give a man a fish and he eats for a day vs teach a man to fish and he eats for life philosophy.
> 
> And the OP doesn't realize that his "buddy" just gave him a fish by running all the numbers for him and handing them over but not teaching him how to figure it on his own. HIS WORDS.
> 
> Agreed
> 
> FWIW, I find it extremely hypocritical that someone would take the advice of another business owner that's never done snow and ice management but has been in business 40 years while getting ticked at someone who has been in the snow and ice management business for almost that long that is telling him he is wrong about his thoughts of operating cost going down during snow operations. Like it or not, I was being truthful. Your costs WILL NOT GO DOWN while plowing. That's why I asked why people charge 2-3 times MORE for plowing than mowing.
> 
> Besides that, the rest of my advice whether it was regarding a 6.0 or SIMA was 100% valid and based on real life experience. MINE. You don't have to like me, but I have provided sound, real life advice based on experience.


 Can you teach me to fish. :laugh:


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> Can you teach me to fish. :laugh:


I'm still learning, I suck at it right now.


----------



## Philbilly2

FredG said:


> Can you teach me to fish. :laugh:


I can already see this playing out....


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> My wife does not take any payment she works a 9-5 from home with a 6 figure income. I pay myself 10hr and my boys 10hr for now while we build. I carry 1-2 mill ins. 60k equipment coverage
> I have paid 6k in income tax


Do you w-2 or 1099 yourself and your boys?


----------



## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> I can already see this playing out....


 What, I think it will play out okay, Mark can do the boat trailing and captain the boat, And I can get all gooned up on some Patron and a few beers.   :laugh:


----------



## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm still learning, I suck at it right now.


I have proof of that....You really do suck at it...


----------



## cwren2472

FredG said:


> What, I think it will play out okay, Mark can do the boat trailing and captain the boat, And I can get all gooned up on some Patron and a few beers.   :laugh:


Oh great, just what we need. One more thing for Mark to be the boss of.


----------



## Mike_PS

back on track so we can keep this thread going, please


----------



## JT&SONS

Philbilly2 said:


> Do you w-2 or 1099 yourself and your boys?


1099 my boys W2 myself I let my CPA handle the taxes.


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> 1099 my boys W2 myself


Only reason I ask is due to the fact that you could take a small portion of your profit and start a retirement plan for your boys. It would be about the best gift you could give them. The earlier you start the better. But they have to have actual income to be able to contribute.

Here is an example:


----------



## cwren2472

You are paying your boys $10 an hour AND 1099ing them?!


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> 1099 my boys W2 myself I let my CPA handle the taxes.


And also, that does help close the gap on your $60/hr profits.

You are not paying workers comp on your boys. You are also not paying the taxes on that as they are the ones that will be paying it as it gets deferred to them.

SO... do they carry their own insurance to work for you then???


----------



## JT&SONS

cwren2472 said:


> You are paying your boys $10 an hour AND 1099ing them?!


Yes there are other perks involved and I'm not going into great detail. But under the advice of my CPA and lawyer to get around work comp for now they have to be 1099. This is a family business we are all making sacrifices to get off the ground. They no all good things come to those who wait.


----------



## JT&SONS

Philbilly2 said:


> And also, that does help close the gap on your $60/hr profits.
> 
> You are not paying workers comp on your boys. You are also not paying the taxes on that as they are the ones that will be paying it as it gets deferred to them.
> 
> SO... do they carry their own insurance to work for you then???


Yes and no


----------



## cwren2472

I have to ask. Do see the irony of spouting the virtues of unions and looking out for the worker because the employers are always trying to take advantage of them while, in the SAME THREAD, telling us about how you are screwing over your own family and skirting employement laws cuz everyone needs to "make sacrifices"?

I'm sure you must realize, as Phil said, that your own kids are getting to get boned come tax time because of the way they are "sacrificing." And I'm sure your CPA has explained that to you. And yet it doesn't bother you?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> Yes there are other perks involved and I'm not going into great detail. But under the advice of my CPA and lawyer to get around work comp for now they have to be 1099. This is a family business we are all making sacrifices to get off the ground. They no all good things come to those who wait.


Will your CPA pay the fines, interest and back taxes when you get audited and the IRS tells you your sons are employees and not subcontractors?


----------



## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> Will your CPA pay the fines, interest and back taxes when you get audited and the IRS tells you your sons are employees and not subcontractors?


----------



## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> Will your CPA pay the fines, interest and back taxes when you get audited and the IRS tells you your sons are employees and not subcontractors?


Nice try but they own 12.5% of the business each for 25%. Nothing illegal about it. If they own more then 2% of the company in Illinois at least we are not skirting the law. I didn't make the loop holes I just use them


----------



## JT&SONS

cwren2472 said:


> I have to ask. Do see the irony of spouting the virtues of unions and looking out for the worker because the employers are always trying to take advantage of them while, in the SAME THREAD, telling us about how you are screwing over your own family and skirting employement laws cuz everyone needs to "make sacrifices"?
> 
> I'm sure you must realize, as Phil said, that your own kids are getting to get boned come tax time because of the way they are "sacrificing." And I'm sure your CPA has explained that to you. And yet it doesn't bother you?


I'm not going to go into details but they are well compensated for there sacrifice. But thanks for jumping to conclusions.


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> Nice try but they own 12.5% of the business each for 25%. Nothing illegal about it.


IF they are shareholders in a corp, then why are they getting a 1099 from their own corp?????????


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> Nice try but they own 12.5% of the business each for 25%. Nothing illegal about it. If they own more then 2% of the company in Illinois at least we are not skirting the law. I didn't make the loop holes I just use them


I don't give a crap what laws the state of Illinois has, the IRS says differently.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Let me see if I get this straight.

You are not paying WC, FUTA, SUTA, UA and I'm not sure about Mediwhatever. 

But you are basing your costs on the numbers you are using paying EMPLOYEES $10\hour (what is minimum wage in Illinois?) which is completely unreasonable and not including any of the true associated labor costs in your hourly rate.

And you think I'm a jerk because I asked you about your hourly rate going down while plowing when in all reality it goes up?

You gotta be freaking kidding me!


----------



## Randall Ave

Mark Oomkes said:


> Let me see if I get this straight.
> 
> You are not paying WC, FUTA, SUTA, UA and I'm not sure about Mediwhatever.
> 
> But you are basing your costs on the numbers you are using paying EMPLOYEES $10\hour (what is minimum wage in Illinois?) which is completely unreasonable and not including any of the true associated labor costs in your hourly rate.
> 
> And you think I'm a jerk because I asked you about your hourly rate going down while plowing when in all reality it goes up?
> 
> You gotta be freaking kidding me!


Easy there, or your going to have a grabber.


----------



## JT&SONS

8.25 hr min wage I'm done answering questions about my business numbers. Quit frankly it's not any of your guys business. I trust my lawry and CPA not some keyboard warriors when it comes to taxes and business practices. Lol get out of here with that ****.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

http://www.illinoisbusinessattorney.com/articles/independent_contractor_vs_employee.html

https://www.illinoisworkerscomplaw.com/2017/11/are-you-an-independent-contractor-or-employee/

http://www.ides.illinois.gov/Pages/Employee_Misclassification_Hurts_Businesses_and_Employees.aspx


----------



## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> Let me see if I get this straight.
> 
> You are not paying WC, FUTA, SUTA, UA and I'm not sure about Mediwhatever.
> 
> But you are basing your costs on the numbers you are using paying EMPLOYEES $10\hour (what is minimum wage in Illinois?) which is completely unreasonable and not including any of the true associated labor costs in your hourly rate.
> 
> And you think I'm a jerk because I asked you about your hourly rate going down while plowing when in all reality it goes up?
> 
> You gotta be freaking kidding me!


Coming from someone who's daddy handed there business to them. Go out start our own thing then come back and preach to choir buddie


----------



## Ajlawn1

Randall Ave said:


> Easy there, or your going to have a grabber.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

JT&SONS said:


> 8.25 hr min wage I'm done answering questions about my business numbers. Quit frankly it's not any of your guys business. I trust my lawry and CPA not some keyboard warriors when it comes to taxes and business practices. Lol get out of here with that ****.


You asked for help and advice and that is exactly what you are getting.

Just because you're not getting what you wanted, doesn't mean you're not getting what you asked for.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

JT&SONS said:


> Coming from someone who's daddy handed there business to them. Go out start our own thing then come back and preach to choir buddie


this isn't going to end well.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> Coming from someone who's daddy handed there business to them. Go out start our own thing then come back and preach to choir buddie


And there we have it.

I paid in full for my business. My father didn't hand me anything.

He encouraged me to get a degree in business management instead of landscape management, because the technical aspects can be picked up along the way. He was right.

FWIW, he bought it from his grandfather. Once you're company has been around for over 80 years, with customers that have been with you for over 40, get back to me.


----------



## Mike_PS

alright, time to wrap this one up guys...the thread was supposed to be about helping with how to bid, not digging into the guys numbers, questioning his business practice, etc. etc.


----------

