# Are you being sued by your employees? Protect yourself



## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

A BIG claim trend we are seeing is employees suing their employers for discrimination, libel, slander, wage and earnings and even non compliance of ADA laws. A typical claim scenario is that you gave "John" and raise and didn't give "Eric" the same raise. Eric reports to Department of Labor and your life is now miserable. You can protect yourself from this by buying EPLI insurance (Employment Practices Liability). Premiums are very affordable and it's quick and easy to purchase. Make sure you purchase the optional "Wage and Earnings" coverage as well as "Third Party Coverage". I'm providing these policies country wide for those that need them. I can even bundle them with Cyber Liability insurance. Feel free to reach out to me with questions.
Ben/Insurance
[email protected]


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

What exactly would this cover? Legal expenses to fight the claim? Any settlement amount? Both?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark?!?!?!?....You might wanna look into this...I’m amazed it hasn’t happened yet


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

CWren, the policy provides legal defense, and indemnity (settlement amount). A good EPLI policy provides coverage for Discrimination, harassment, retaliation, violation of Family Medical Leave Act, Wrongful Discipline, wrongful failure to promote, wrongful termination, wage and earnings and thirty party suits/actions. It's not a matter of if but when.
Ben/Insurance


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

So this insurance policy is meant to protect employers who get caught violating labor laws, violating FMLA, harassment and other types of violations they might do to their employees?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Luther said:


> So this insurance policy is meant to protect employers who get caught violating labor laws, violating FMLA, harassment and other types of violations they might do to their employees?


You mean employers *accused* of doing all (any) of the above.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

What if John is a good worker and Eric sucks and doesn't deserve a raise. How can am employee dictate who is entitled to a raise. Confidentiality laws prevent me from telling John that Eric sucks,


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## SilverPine (Dec 7, 2018)

If Eric showed up on time every day and hustled a little more, maybe he would have got a raise too.


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

Many of these start as EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) inquiries. The inquiry you get in the mail is considered a first report of a claim( by insurers). Let the EPLI insurance carrier reply to it as replying incorrectly or not at all will cause you major grief.
Ben/Insurance


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

So this policy only covers the tendering of the claim?

If a judgment is found against the employer, does this policy cover that also?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> You mean employers *accused* of doing all (any) of the above.


Yes, it certainly all starts with an accusation.


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

Yes, defense and indemnity. Some carriers also provide free advisory services (through an arrangement with labor attorneys). That's a nice service.
Ben


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Luther said:


> So this policy only covers the tendering of the claim?
> 
> If a judgment is found against the employer, does this policy cover that also?


So you will defend them when accused. What are you doing on the front end to make sure they do everything possible to avoid it to being with?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Sound like a good add on to consider. How do they calculate the premiums for this Ben? is it based on location? Company size? Company history? Existing company documentation?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Ben/Insurance said:


> Yes, defense and indemnity. Some carriers also provide free advisory services (through an arrangement with labor attorneys). That's a nice service.
> Ben


Does the insured get to choose who represents them, and they they're paid out the total cost with a cap, or do you have to use who the insurance company is signed up with?


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

Jonniesmooth, on the front end, there are labor law attorneys to advise you on ongoing employment issues, free of charge, with the "better" carriers. Luther, premiums are based on your business operations, amount of employees and state you are in. Bossplow, the insurance carriers contract with local labor law firms on most claims. The limit of coverage is usually $1 mill but there are sub-limits in certain coverage areas. Defense costs can be within the $1mill or separate depending on the option you choose. Good questions folks....
Ben


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Mark?!?!?!?....You might wanna look into this...I'm amazed it hasn't happened yet


Mark who?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Mark who?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Mark who?


Not Markus..

I cant afford anymore insurance I plow snow for a living!!!


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Triple M ... ?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

SHAWZER said:


> Triple M ... ?


Good point, is the Insurnace applicable to our Internet friends to the north? And what about protection form others such as subcontractors is it applicable in those instances?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Up here you can buy legal expense insurance. Im told you can buy insurance for anything that worries you.
Legal expense insurance however would cover just about any litigation, not just from your empoyees...with access to advice and determining exposure


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

Boss plow, great question on the subs. If you purchase the “third party” coverage option on the EPLI policy, the policy would likely respond assuming one of the better carriers is providing the coverage. I’m not familiar with the insurance offerings in Canada. 
Ben/Insurance


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

The only insurance you can't get up here is liability insurance for your snow plowing company


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

I don’t think you can buy corna virus insurance now. Somehow I already know I’m liable for not providing a virus fee workplace


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Quick poll here....How many people here have been sued for this...I work for a company with 300 employees and this has not ever happened...You get the injury claims now and then..But those are covered by comp...It just seems to me that this is just another “tool” for the insurance company’s to dig a little deeper into the pockets of the business owner...Trying to create a need that is not really needed...In my opinion this is only good for the insurance company’s and the “pool” of lawyers they have in each state...Now we will be inundated with commercials on TV for lawyers here to represent people who got their feelings hurt


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I give raises by a employee's attitude and there work performance. The guy I can send to do something without holding his hand gets the money. The guy that just shows up and mixes in with no desire to learn and take control gets squat.

Study up on your labor laws and do the right thing and call it a day. A Union contractor does not have to worry about this as everybody gets raises and benefits at the same time. 

If you don't like a Union employee's performance you can only lay them off anyways. No surprise we live in a sue happy country but the self employed have rights too. I'm not saying it's a good thing or bad thing this would be to the contractor to make this decision.

What I am saying I think my insurance company's get there fare share off the top now and I will take my chances. Then again it's no surprise I'm a bullheaded FOG and close to my way out. :laugh:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Quick poll here....How many people here have been sued for this...I work for a company with 300 employees and this has not ever happened...You get the injury claims now and then..But those are covered by comp...It just seems to me that this is just another "tool" for the insurance company's to dig a little deeper into the pockets of the business owner...Trying to create a need that is not really needed...In my opinion this is only good for the insurance company's and the "pool" of lawyers they have in each state...Now we will be inundated with commercials on TV for lawyers here to represent people who got their feelings hurt


 I vote with you and agree totally.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Quick poll here....How many people here have been sued for this...I work for a company with 300 employees and this has not ever happened...You get the injury claims now and then..But those are covered by comp...It just seems to me that this is just another "tool" for the insurance company's to dig a little deeper into the pockets of the business owner...Trying to create a need that is not really needed...In my opinion this is only good for the insurance company's and the "pool" of lawyers they have in each state...Now we will be inundated with commercials on TV for lawyers here to represent people who got their feelings hurt


 This should get interesting soon with your post. lol


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Defcon 5 said:


> Quick poll here....How many people here have been sued for this...I work for a company with 300 employees and this has not ever happened...You get the injury claims now and then..But those are covered by comp...It just seems to me that this is just another "tool" for the insurance company's to dig a little deeper into the pockets of the business owner...Trying to create a need that is not really needed...In my opinion this is only good for the insurance company's and the "pool" of lawyers they have in each state...Now we will be inundated with commercials on TV for lawyers here to represent people who got their feelings hurt


Can't say it's happened to me but I have a very small number of employees. However, I've never even heard of this happening and up here employee rights are very strong. Can't see why anyone would want to have employees if this became the norm.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Maybe initiating a union isn't such a bad idea...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

GMC Driver said:


> Maybe initiating a union isn't such a bad idea...


If you mean because there's no direct contact between employee and employer i might actually hire someone...


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Mr.Markus said:


> If you mean because there's no direct contact between employee and employer i might actually hire someone...


There's that.

And the whole contract/wage thing is negated.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

GMC Driver said:


> There's that.
> 
> And the whole contract/wage thing is negated.


Wouldn't this trend just be shifted to the unions if that were the case? So instead, the employee sues the union instead of the employer?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

GMC Driver said:


> Maybe initiating a union isn't such a bad idea...


Careful....Your gonna get Oomkes and Buffy are riled up....They are gonna start referring to you as a primate ....


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

GMC Driver said:


> Maybe initiating a union isn't such a bad idea...


I was thinking more along the lines of @Mr.Markus 's setup. Even union companies have employees on staff, albeit in administration.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Defcon 5 said:


> Careful....Your gonna get Oomkes and Buffy are riled up....They are gonna start referring to you as a primate ....


Well I do live in a country that would likely sweep a guy like Bernie into power without a second thought. In fact, the guy in charge here is definitely on the same page.

Besides, isn't it the job of the top 1% of snow plowers to take care of the other 99%?

I think they both know where I really stand.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

GMC Driver said:


> Well I do live in a country that would likely sweep a guy like Bernie into power without a second thought. In fact, the guy in charge here is definitely on the same page.
> 
> Besides, isn't it the job of the top 1% of snow plowers to take care of the other 99%?
> 
> I think they both know where I really stand.


Only in terms of making sure the 99% stop agreeing to "zero tolerance" clauses in their contracts


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Careful....Your gonna get Oomkes and Buffy are riled up....They are gonna start referring to you as a primate ....


Did I hurt your feelings?

Are you going to sue me?

Ben, could you share some examples of this happening, specifically in the green and/or snow industries?

Because if this is really a thing, I might just consider closing shop. I tend to agree with Defcon, a solution looking for a problem.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

I guess they could name this insurance package...Millennial insurance ...They don’t want to work and when they do show up you tell them to do something and they get upset...


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Did I hurt your feelings?
> 
> Are you going to sue me?
> 
> ...


I agree " solution looking for as problem" now.
BUT in 3,5,10 years with the next generation of workers, I think it could explode.
Selling the business sounds like a very good idea. Take the money and run.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Defcon 5 said:


> Quick poll here....How many people here have been sued for this...I work for a company with 300 employees and this has not ever happened...You get the injury claims now and then..But those are covered by comp...It just seems to me that this is just another "tool" for the insurance company's to dig a little deeper into the pockets of the business owner...Trying to create a need that is not really needed...In my opinion this is only good for the insurance company's and the "pool" of lawyers they have in each state...Now we will be inundated with commercials on TV for lawyers here to represent people who got their feelings hurt


Company is aboot 250 employees total spilt up between 2 sites, 1 in Colo and 1 in Conn. Both sites have been taken to court a couple times over employees that have been butthurt aboot being fired even though both states are an employment-at-will state. It seems to be more common in Conn than Colo.

The company is a member to an Employment Council https://www.employerscouncil.org/ which has proven to be a very good thing when dealing with employment law / policy's since they do change and our HR staff only has so mulch bandwidth.

As an employer a good employee handbook that covers company policy's is a must. During orientation part of the process is having the employee sign they have read and understand the policy's in the handbook. Good documentation of employee incidents is important too, this can save you butt if a threat of being taken to court is made or a potential. Documentation is also handy when an employee is given their annual Performance Review (key word is Performance). I was told many years ago by HR the annual Performance review shouldn't be an surprise to the employee and when/if there's performance issues during the year they need to be addressed verbally with notes given to HR to put in the employees files, second step is written documentation the employee signs, third step is written documentation which can include being suspended or fired depending on the situation. It's human nature to set your value to your employer higher than what it actually is, I've given several Performance reviews that the employee only gets a 1 or 2 percent increase, no increase or even a decrease in wages which includes a change in job description. I've also given increases as high as 15%, increases are based in performance and cost of living increases aren't given.

I have 32 employees that report to me with 20 of them in Colo and 12 in Conn. The crew in Colo is mulch easier to deal with than the crew in Conn. Some of this is due to I'm Colo the majority of the time but the culture in drastically different in both areas of the country.

I recently had an issue with an employee in Conn which ended up with the employee making a formal complaint to HR. I handled the situation the same way I've handled it in Colo including the same verbiage. HR in Colo didn't see an issue but HR in Conn felt it was to harsh. I had a couple emails going back 10 months were I told the employee he hosed up, showed him were and gave him a work instruction to follow. I cover the bases pretty dam good but the HR gal in Conn felt I needed to apologize for my choice of words so this incident would go no further. I was pissed and the Colo HR guy wasn't thrilled but supported his counterparts solution. So I had to call this NTAC and apologize for choice of words, which was "As a way to cure you of your sloppy work and leaving money on the table maybe we should take it out of you pay over the next 6 pay periods". I've said this to people in my Colo crew and they take it as oh crap I better pull my head oot.

I have 925 days till I eject and it can't come soon enough because more people are becoming a was of space on this planet.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Defcon 5 said:


> I guess they could name this insurance package...Millennial insurance ...They don't want to work and when they do show up you tell them to do something and they get upset...


I've been seeing some people in older generations are seeing the crap millennials are doing and they have hooped on the entitled bandwagon too.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jonniesmooth said:


> I agree " solution looking for as problem" now.
> BUT in 3,5,10 years with the next generation of workers, I think it could explode.
> Selling the business sounds like a very good idea. Take the money and run.


 I know I'm running to another country, I'm going to live like a fake millionaire with a maid and gardener for 10 peso's a day each. LOL


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

I’m in NY and most of my clients are in NY, NJ, Ct and Pa. Every day I get calls on this from clients and each week I see claims coming in. Here are some recent examples that relate to your industry:
Plaintiff (crew) was fired because he showed up to work drunk regularly. He claimed that he was terminated because he was Hispanic. EPLI claim. Ins carrier paid $50k in legal fees and settled the case for $90k. WC Board also involved as allegedly employer was paying cash to workers and not showing it on WC payroll. Here’s another. Female receptionist for NJ snow plow contractor sued her employer alleging sexual harassment after she was moved from full time to part time (health ins). Owner made lewd jokes from time to time. EPLI claim. Insurer paid $30k in defense and $35k to settle the case. Those are both my clients occurring in the last 12 months.
Ben/Insurance
631-844-5242


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

BUFF said:


> I've been seeing some people in older generations are seeing the crap millennials are doing and they have hooped on the entitled bandwagon too.


They are hopping on because more employers are catering to millennials..Why should I that was brought up in a generation where hard work meant something sit there and watch an entitled little brat get away with murder for the same pay and Benefits...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ben/Insurance said:


> I'm in NY and most of my clients are in NY, NJ, Ct and Pa. Every day I get calls on this from clients and each week I see claims coming in. Here are some recent examples that relate to your industry:
> Plaintiff (crew) was fired because he showed up to work drunk regularly. He claimed that he was terminated because he was Hispanic. EPLI claim. Ins carrier paid $50k in legal fees and settled the case for $90k. WC Board also involved as allegedly employer was paying cash to workers and not showing it on WC payroll. Here's another. Female receptionist for NJ snow plow contractor sued her employer alleging sexual harassment after she was moved from full time to part time (health ins). Owner made lewd jokes from time to time. EPLI claim. Insurer paid $30k in defense and $35k to settle the case. Those are both my clients occurring in the last 12 months.
> Ben/Insurance
> 631-844-5242


Ok, let's try this again.

Can you provide examples of a suit in which the employers weren't violating the law (and being idiots) that have needed this insurance?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Ok, let's try this again.
> 
> Can you provide examples of a suit in which the employers weren't violating the law (and being idiots) that have needed this insurance?


Exactly, and neither of these examples took care to cya on the front end. How many times did they run Mr.drunk face to the er for a BAC? Failure to test is considered a positive test also, for the record.
I'm still working on the 2nd example.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ben/Insurance said:


> I'm in NY and most of my clients are in NY, NJ, Ct and Pa. Every day I get calls on this from clients and each week I see claims coming in. Here are some recent examples that relate to your industry:
> Plaintiff (crew) was fired because he showed up to work drunk regularly. He claimed that he was terminated because he was Hispanic. EPLI claim. Ins carrier paid $50k in legal fees and settled the case for $90k. WC Board also involved as allegedly employer was paying cash to workers and not showing it on WC payroll. Here's another. Female receptionist for NJ snow plow contractor sued her employer alleging sexual harassment after she was moved from full time to part time (health ins). Owner made lewd jokes from time to time. EPLI claim. Insurer paid $30k in defense and $35k to settle the case. Those are both my clients occurring in the last 12 months.
> Ben/Insurance
> 631-844-5242


So I will say, I'm flabbergasted that this coverage still protects someone that is not only stupid but also breaking the law.

Not that I abide by every single law because it's just impossible. But I'm not going to pay cash to avoid paying taxes or whatever. We've turned down many potential employees, especially for winter work because they want cash to not screw up their UA. Not going to happen.

I don't even make lewd jokes when it's just guys.

Was example #1 trained in recognizing impaired behavior? Did he follow the proper steps in terminating this guy? For cause?

I appreciate the reply, but these don't apply to a business owner that is abiding by the law and someone filed a truly frivolous lawsuit.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Did he follow the proper steps in terminating this guy? For cause?


My guess is no and this is where most employers hose up. As mulch of a pita and time suck it is you have to document all incidents that lead to disciplinary actions up to termination. 
We've touched on the topic of not being able to find good reliable employees many times over the years. The labor market in Colo is pretty tight with 2.6% unemployment which IMO gives the employee an advantage. Employees that recognize that can hold that over their employers which basically holds the employer hostage, more so when the employer has a specialized job that's hard to fill when the labor market is good.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

I agree with it’s a solution looking for a problem. I wonder if the majority of contractors considering this would be better off paying a law firm a retainer for services. A law firm would be pro active to make sure that you are complying with the law. 
Now there is the problem of envolving law. What was permissible years ago suddenly is a no-no. Such as describing someone as a lazy employee on a website or a well endowed woman. Gets really touchy with long term employees. Once they kept quiet about it, now they say something. 

Also lawyers tend to follow the easy money for the time spent. It is far easier to hire a blind person for their staff. Then sue you for a ADA compliance issue because their employee can’t use your website. It’s a easy 100,000.00 for one months work. They can spends years waiting to prove that their client was Hispanic when you called him “Hey,you” instead of “Senor”


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

FredG said:


> I know I'm running to another country, I'm going to live like a fake millionaire with a maid and gardener for 10 peso's a day each. LOL


It's 200 pesos a day and you don't have to run, planes fly virtually every day although they're cheaper on the weekends...........


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

framer1901 said:


> It's 200 pesos a day and you don't have to run, planes fly virtually every day although they're cheaper on the weekends...........


 If I don't run you think I can drive? Yes 200 pesos my bad. lol


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So I will say, I'm flabbergasted that this coverage still protects someone that is not only stupid but also breaking the law.
> 
> Not that I abide by every single law because it's just impossible. But I'm not going to pay cash to avoid paying taxes or whatever. We've turned down many potential employees, especially for winter work because they want cash to not screw up their UA. Not going to happen.
> 
> ...


And I think it could just as likely go this way: business: i need to use my elpi insurance.
Insurer: ok, we've reviewed your policy and the incidents that lead up to this and you did ( or didn't do) X,Y, AND Z, so you aren't covered.
X,Y,AND Z being the schetchy illegal things. Or the appropriate right legal things. Depending on how things shook out.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

FredG said:


> If I don't run you think I can drive? Yes 200 pesos my bad. lol


There's more than a few US plated cars here, one sitting in front of my house. Bring a truck, we could probably pay your way if you fill it with scuba tanks.

Employment laws here are really strict in that employees have super rights. Boat captains here, a professional job, average earn 6000 pesos per month salary plus 300 pesos per trip, they do split tips on top of that. Theft of fuel, oil and parts is rampant as a suplamant to salary. If you fire a person for say theft, you will still pay that persons salary for x number of months based on how long he's worked for you. There's also a savings plan and medical.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jonniesmooth said:


> And I think it could just as likely go this way: business: i need to use my elpi insurance.
> Insurer: ok, we've reviewed your policy and the incidents that lead up to this and you did ( or didn't do) X,Y, AND Z, so you aren't covered.
> X,Y,AND Z being the schetchy illegal things. Or the appropriate right legal things. Depending on how things shook out.


 Has long as your running a clean honest business I see nothing to fear. If your leaving yourself open for a disgruntled employee to get dirt on you maybe.

Don't treat them like your friends and watch what you say even if your intent was just to break stones. They may not share your same sense of humor.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

framer1901 said:


> There's more than a few US plated cars here, one sitting in front of my house. Bring a truck, we could probably pay your way if you fill it with scuba tanks.
> 
> Employment laws here are really strict in that employees have super rights. Boat captains here, a professional job, average earn 6000 pesos per month salary plus 300 pesos per trip, they do split tips on top of that. Theft of fuel, oil and parts is rampant as a suplamant to salary. If you fire a person for say theft, you will still pay that persons salary for x number of months based on how long he's worked for you. There's also a savings plan and medical.


 I will be in the Ajijic lake Chapala area. I have no intention of doing business there.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I sued a former employer,
3 charges and I won on all 3 counts.
Yup, sometimes employers choose to skirt the laws.

I wonder if they had such a insurance policy if it would have been settled out of court and if the settlement would have been for more?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I'll give an example of employer doing the right things and still getting sued.

I don't know 100% of the details...but just what I heard from my wife.

My wife used to be a medical assistant, working in a place that helped the elderly with some machine to help their blood circulate (the job was better than it sounds). They had training, all the right employee manuals, a hired HR with a lot of experience, yadda yadda yadda...

Without getting too much into detail, an African American woman (who had been written up prior for entering false info in charts, not watching her patients, along with other "being late" type stuff). Well one day she almost killed a woman by half assing her job again. She was fired - they had all the correct documents, someone fired her who had hire/fired many people, and they had documented proof of her mistakes.

She then sued for discrimination. Claimed all her write ups and termination were because of her skin color. Several months later my wife saw on Facebook that she was bragging about all the money she won.

I'm not saying I agree with the reasoning for the insurance....but I definitely see the need. Seems like everyone is a victim, no matter the circumstances. Just takes one person.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Sometimes the employer even with a HR dept
That has a lot of experience, does the wrong thing.

Got hurt at work.
Employer (HR )denies WC.
Forceimg employee to commit fraud to get medical attention they need.

Employer is informed that employee needs surgery. Employer (HR) approves, or surgery and time from work.
While employee is recovering they terminat employee.

LCount 1 wrongful termination .
Count 2 violation of FMLA.
Count 3 wrongful denial of WC.

2 people lost their jobs over their poor decision making skills.

Iwas reinstated and paid a momatary sum
For back pay.
Everyone thinks you get big $$$$ when you
“Win” these things and the reality of it is, You don’t.
I was a victim of a poorly run HR dept.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

JMHConstruction said:


> She then sued for discrimination. Claimed all her write ups and termination were because of her skin color. Several months later my wife saw on Facebook that she was bragging about all the money she won.
> 
> I'm not saying I agree with the reasoning for the insurance....but I definitely see the need. Seems like everyone is a victim, no matter the circumstances. Just takes one person.


Last week I was talking to a couple dozen students at a trade school which I've done many times before and been asked pretty mulch every question until this time.
One kid asked if I had any people of color working in the shop, I come back with,all people have color. Was also asked by female if I had any females working in the shop, I come back with, not currently however aboot 25yrs ago we had a gal for aboot a year or so. She struggled with the physical requirements and moved on.
My take away from both questions was, at 20yo <> the seed has been planted for possible discrimination claims later in life.
I blame their parents and social media.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Sole operator would solve all this. Just won't work for me or can't figure how to do it.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

framer1901 said:


> There's more than a few US plated cars here, one sitting in front of my house. Bring a truck, we could probably pay your way if you fill it with scuba tanks.
> 
> Employment laws here are really strict in that employees have super rights. Boat captains here, a professional job, average earn 6000 pesos per month salary plus 300 pesos per trip, they do split tips on top of that. Theft of fuel, oil and parts is rampant as a suplamant to salary. If you fire a person for say theft, you will still pay that persons salary for x number of months based on how long he's worked for you. There's also a savings plan and medical.


 If It's not to personal did you give over $160K for your home there? I'm not talking about ocean front or lake. Does it make sense to rent first and find the right price on something that may not be on the open market?

What did you do when you purchased? Do you have servants? Is the home safe when your in the states? Where I'm looking is gated with 24/7 security but not sure how much safety it provides.

My Uncle has a little bungalow behind his place and the gardener stays year round to maintain the property. I guess exterminating has to be kept up with pretty good.

This is all I want to know, I promise I won't be a PITA.


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

Mark, oftentimes, there’s no malice in employment/business decisions. Rather, there’s a lack of basic understanding among employers about federal and state requirements. None of my clients have an HR department and instead regularly rely on advice given by EPLI carriers and their representative law firms in an attempt to avoid claims. All, Why pay a retainer to a law firm when you get the advisory services free plus the backstop of insurance protection?
Ben/Insurance


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

FredG said:


> Study up on your labor laws and do the right thing and call it a day. A Union contractor does not have to worry about this as everybody gets raises and benefits at the same time.
> 
> If you don't like a Union employee's performance you can only lay them off anyways. No surprise we live in a sue happy country but the self employed have rights too. I'm not saying it's a good thing or bad thing this would be to the contractor to make this decision.


Yes and no.

I am a union contractor and I carry an "Employment Related Practices Liability" policy... just saying


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ben/Insurance said:


> Mark, oftentimes, there's no malice in employment/business decisions.


Bypassing WC by paying cash isn't malicious?

Telling lewd jokes in front of a female isn't stupid?

These 2 examples must be from someone living under a rock if that's the case.



Ben/Insurance said:


> Rather, there's a lack of basic understanding among employers about federal and state requirements.


Paying cash so one doesn't have to pay WC is a lack of understanding? Come on, I didn't fall off the turnip truck.



Ben/Insurance said:


> None of my clients have an HR department


Neither do I. But I do have a smidgeon of common sense.



Ben/Insurance said:


> Why pay a retainer to a law firm when you get the advisory services free plus the backstop of insurance protection?


Paying insurance isn't the same as paying a retainer? Pretty good chance of asking advice from a lawyer, hopefully zero chance of using the insurance coverage.

Here's an example of non-malicious lack of understanding. We have been told by different accountants that casual labor (under $600) does not have to have UA, WC, etc withheld. A few year's back we won the UA audit lottery. They found that we weren't paying all that, went back 10 years and we owed something like $425. Whatever.

We did have a lack of understanding based on advice from multiple people in the accounting field. So everyone that works for us now...whether it be an hour or full time, fills out all the paperwork, gets all the appropriate taxes withheld, etc.

Last year they chose us for another UA audit. Stupid idiots. 6 months later we get the final determination: we owed $0.00.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Paying insurance isn't the same as paying a retainer? Pretty good chance of asking advice from a lawyer, hopefully zero chance of using the insurance coverage.


I am not sure if all states/ lawyers are the same, but the policy is super cheap compared to me even calling my lawyer and tying up his time for something that is typically just a jagoff trying to get rich cause someone hurt his precious feelings.

Advantages of it to me that made me sign up back in 2016 are that threw my insurance provider, this policy gives me access to calling a "employment lawyer" that deals direct with this - free of charge. If I have a question, I just call.

The policy also gives me an employee handbook building tool, an online training module for employees to use that documents electronically that they have watched training videos, access to forms and policy documents, annual labor law posters, and other "HR" items that I don't know about since I don't have an HR department.

My policy costs me $550 annual... drop in the bucket compared to all the other insurance we have to carry.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

AND... In no way shape or form do I advocate insurance, I hate buying it, every time my insurance agent stops by my office, my blood pressure goes through the roof. This just seems to be so damn cheap for what you get out of it in my case.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

It would be interesting to know the premium increase or non renewal rate if you do use it.
Same a auto, snow liability etc....


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Philbilly2 said:


> I am not sure if all states/ lawyers are the same, but the policy is super cheap compared to me even calling my lawyer and tying up his time for something that is typically just a jagoff trying to get rich cause someone hurt his precious feelings.
> 
> Advantages of it to me that made me sign up back in 2016 are that threw my insurance provider, this policy gives me access to calling a "employment lawyer" that deals direct with this - free of charge. If I have a question, I just call.
> 
> ...


Interesting.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Philbilly2 said:


> I am not sure if all states/ lawyers are the same, but the policy is super cheap compared to me even calling my lawyer and tying up his time for something that is typically just a jagoff trying to get rich cause someone hurt his precious feelings.
> 
> Advantages of it to me that made me sign up back in 2016 are that threw my insurance provider, this policy gives me access to calling a "employment lawyer" that deals direct with this - free of charge. If I have a question, I just call.
> 
> ...


That was my only argument against it. Was what do they do for you proactively on the front end to prevent incidents?
Your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, that's worth paying for, provided it's used and properly, being insured to cya after the fact is a bonus.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

jonniesmooth said:


> That was my only argument against it. Was what do they do for you proactively on the front end to prevent incidents?
> Your 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, that's worth paying for, provided it's used and properly, being insured to cya after the fact is a bonus.


Believe me, I understand. I ran my insurance agent through the mud much as many did with Ben here.

I had the exact same response 4 years ago when it was brought to me as an option to purchase and I said sounds like you guys are just making things up to insure now.

As I did for you all, once my agent laid out the cost vs what you actually get from the the cost, I said the exact same thing you just did. Well, I need a lot of those things that you offer and it will only cost $550 a year and I get some insurance for it too? Ok, I will give it a listen now.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'll axe my agent aboot it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

@Ben/Insurance

Any chance of a coronavirus coverage? Maybe a loss of business due to stupidity of those in charge panicking?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> @Ben/Insurance
> 
> Any chance of a coronavirus coverage? Maybe a loss of business due to stupidity of those in charge panicking?


Fake news??


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Fake news??


I figgered if there was coverage for me breaking the law and treating employees incorrectly, I could get this kind of coverage.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I could get this kind of coverage.


They don't cover pre-existing conditions - Too bad you didn't buy it a year ago.


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## The Snow Punishers (Sep 30, 2018)

Last year I lost a west Point Contract because when I went to pay my crew they tried, to rob me.
Let's just say ice packs on the knuckles that night..

I hate people.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

My crew robs me everyday...
Money...
Sleep...
Sanity...
The will to continue...!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The Snow Punishers said:


> Last year I lost a west Point Contract because when I went to pay my crew they tried, to rob me.
> Let's just say ice packs on the knuckles that night..
> 
> I hate people.


How do they rob you when using checks/cheques so you can prove you withheld taxes, UA, SS, WC, etc?


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> My crew robs me everyday...
> Money...
> Sleep...
> Sanity...
> The will to continue...!


Round Rubber Room .... ?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

The Snow Punishers said:


> Last year I lost a west Point Contract because when I went to pay my crew they tried, to rob me.
> Let's just say ice packs on the knuckles that night..
> 
> I hate people.


Your employees tried to rob you?
If so it may be a good idea to take a look at your hiring/vetting process in the future.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

BUFF said:


> Your employees tried to rob you?
> If so it may be a good idea to take a look at your hiring/vetting process in the future.


Could've also been the guys at West Point...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> Could've also been the guys at West Point...


Think there's an honor code for the Kadets


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> Could've also been the guys at West Point...


That would explain losing that contract afterwards. Soldiers bitter about getting trounced by a bare-fisted landscaper. Makes perfect sense to me.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> Could've also been the guys at West Point...


Is West Point a halfway house?


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

again, let's keep it on point


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> again, let's keep it on point


Pun intended?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Is there coverage for getting robbed by employees?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Is there coverage for getting robbed by employees?


Do you think I should get it if there is..?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> Do you think I should get it if there is..?


Do they get paid cash?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Do they get paid cash?


Do nickel and dimes count..?


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## midnight pumpkin (Jan 27, 2017)

what a scam, everything is a racket these days


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