# Where can I buy beet juice???



## JSC Inc

I would like to know if anyone knows where I can buy beet juice / beet molases in the Chicago area???


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## Longae29

Do you have a reinders in your area? if so, they have it.


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## JSC Inc

What are people paying per gallon for beet jucie / molasses


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## Kubota 8540

JSC Inc;1066011 said:


> What are people paying per gallon for beet jucie / molasses


Just talked to a guy from Indiana last night after I got off the phone with you. Had a VERY good price. How much you looking for? I can't give his # on here, he's not a sponsor? Give me a call if you're interested.


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## Westhardt Corp.

I hope it's come down--IMO last year it was too high, given its performance versus the other liquid options.


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## SnowMatt13

SNI Solutions
309.944.3168


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## Chrisxl64

try the grocery store,,,in the whole foods or organic section.


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## salopez

anyone know if there is a source for beet juice in the mid-atlantic?


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## ggkkpp

Did they ever fix the staining problem with beet J? I never looked into it after I heard of customers complaining about it staining carpets? That was a while ago........ Have they solved that problem??


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## kevhead20

What value does beet juice add?

not a slam....serious question.


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## IMAGE

What are you guys paying per gallon, in 250 gallon quantity?


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## Kubota 8540

kevhead20;1086996 said:


> What value does beet juice add?
> 
> not a slam....serious question.


It appears to make the liquid stick to the pavement longer.


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## Westhardt Corp.

Reduces bounce/scatter, also, no?


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## kevhead20

Westhardt Corp.;1087128 said:


> Reduces bounce/scatter, also, no?


sure...but wouldn't any wetted solid reduce bounce and scatter? Seems like an expensive adhesive.


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## Westhardt Corp.

One would think, but it's one of the reasons I've heard in support of beet juice. (was going to abbreviate "BJ"....but probably not the wisest choice)

Honestly, once I got some pricing info on it, I stopped researching the stuff.


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## kevhead20

Westhardt Corp.;1087163 said:


> One would think, but it's one of the reasons I've heard in support of beet juice. (was going to abbreviate "BJ"....but probably not the wisest choice)
> 
> Honestly, once I got some pricing info on it, I stopped researching the stuff.


Interesting.....Thanks. I know our MFG and therefore I, had this product available 7-8 years ago and they stopped manufacturing it because of the data/testing returns. Thanks, I'm learning all the time.


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## T-MAN

kevhead20;1086996 said:


> What value does beet juice add?
> 
> not a slam....serious question.


Beet Juice does several things.
It lowers the "effective" melting point of rock salt to around 0 degree's, so no reason to over apply for colder temps. This is also good for the environment, as less chlorides make it into the water ways, and ground water.
Your usage goes down by about 30% as well, so your saving money on rock salt, and you can stretch whats on the truck to apply on other sites. Time is money 
It also reduces the corrosive effects of rock salt as well. A good thing for motorists and snow and ice contractors.
Many talk about liquid cal as the cure all. It is cheap and simple to make. 
Take a good look at a rig that is subjected to liquid cal on a regular basis, that stuff eats metal faster then magic-0 eats aluminum.


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## Westhardt Corp.

Magic does something..._anything_ bad?

I thought it was re-packaged Liquid Schwartz. Who knew?


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## IMAGE

What are ppl paying or getting quoted?


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## Grassman09

Westhardt Corp.;1087734 said:


> Magic does something..._anything_ bad?
> 
> I thought it was re-packaged Liquid Schwartz. Who knew?


It don't taste all that good. Bitter kinda sour.


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## T-MAN

Westhardt Corp.;1087734 said:


> Magic does something..._anything_ bad?
> 
> I thought it was re-packaged Liquid Schwartz. Who knew?


Magic -0 main melting element is mag chloride. It eats aluminum. I had a nice aluminum hand pump on a barrel of magic. The pump was froze up and trashed in less then a month. 
IDOT has banned all mag chloride products on state roads, including magic-0.
Its pretty in depth about the issues with mag and concrete.
SNI is pretty spendy for beet juice, theres others around, and other products that have decent results.


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## Westhardt Corp.

I know--they're spec'ing Geo/equiv now. A nice racket for SNI, since they hold the patent on Geo. I was reading the solicitation from last year about it yesterday, actually--specifically states "no magnesium chloride" and refers to it as "LCS (liquid corn salt)".

Gotta love IL.


And I know what's in Magic-O....incredibly similar to Ice B Gon, who knew? Oh, wait a second...


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## kevhead20

T-MAN;1087697 said:


> Beet Juice does several things.
> It lowers the "effective" melting point of rock salt to around 0 degree's, so no reason to over apply for colder temps. This is also good for the environment, as less chlorides make it into the water ways, and ground water.
> Your usage goes down by about 30% as well, so your saving money on rock salt, and you can stretch whats on the truck to apply on other sites. Time is money
> It also reduces the corrosive effects of rock salt as well. A good thing for motorists and snow and ice contractors.
> Many talk about liquid cal as the cure all. It is cheap and simple to make.
> Take a good look at a rig that is subjected to liquid cal on a regular basis, that stuff eats metal faster then magic-0 eats aluminum.


Thanks T-MAN. For what it's worth, I will submit our info.

All of our testing has shown beet juice not to be a stand alone ice melter and what happens is that many people confuse freeze point with exothermic/ice melting capabilities. It may lower the "effective" melting point of rock salt but only when blended. This is why most of the more popular organic blends have a chloride with a lower temperature performance involved. This is why one would notice a lower working temperature with a sugar byproduct.

On the surface it sounds good for the environment but some of the data that is coming back now doesn't support the claim. With more widespread use, there is a lot of concern about an organic material getting into the waterways and storm run off systems and the oxygen demands an organic material puts on those aquatic systems.

We do agree that less chloride introduced into the environment is good and we do agree that pre-wetting will accomplish this.

Thanks again T-MAN for the information. I appreciate you sharing some of your experience and results. It helps us be better informed.


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## Hinkler

Please cite the studies if available


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## Westhardt Corp.

.


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## Juice Induced

*BEET JUICE Pricing and Performance*

Beet juice is a chloride de-icer enhancer. Beet juice 30/70 increases sodium chloride's ice melt capacity 23.5% @ 0o F, and slightly less than that at 10o F and 20o F. Beet juice 30/70 reduces sodium chloride's freeze point from -6 to -28.4. Beet juice 30/70 reduces sodium chloride's relative corrosion from 100 to 22, or 78%. Even though these facts are very impressive, many public works professionals say that the real benefit is the residual effect that the beet juice gives them. Yet, many downplay the residual effect.

Every APWA tradeshow that I have attended (4) this year, including the national event, has included guest speakers who highly recommend using beet juice. They always tout its residual effect as saving them money. If the residue of the previously applied de-icer is capable of handling a small weather event, or frost, the fleet of trucks stays at the shop, thereby, saving fuel, de-icer, labor and wear and tear on equipment. There are some very informative videos on *YouTube*. Just get on *YouTube* and search something like Beet Juice De-icer.

Historically speaking, beet juice de-icers have been very expensive. Today, that is not the case at all. Beet juice de-icers can be purchased at a beet juice de-icer plant in northern Indiana for $1.22 per gallon, plus a fill charge for purchases less than 1,200 gallons. They even have a custom "superblend" de-icer for $0.92 per gallon that can be cut with sodium chloride brine 1:1. After blending this "superblend" with 24% sodium chloride, it will melt as much ice as 32% calcium chloride @ 0o F, is 82% less corrosive, and will cost you about $0.61 per gallon which is less than 32% calcium chloride, plus you get all of the residual benefits that calcium chloride and sodium chloride do not and cannot give you.


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## Juice Induced

*BEET JUICE and BOD*

When it comes to beet juice de-icers and Biochemical Oxygen Demand (BOD), the notion that beet juice has a problem is just as big a farce as manmade global warming. Applying beet juice on a highway, road or street, amounts to a nanoscopic effect on our environment when you compare it to leaf pollution!

Don't tell me that you haven't heard of leaf pollution, or leaf litter! This very serious environmental challenge is caused when a leaf from a tree detaches and falls to the ground! The moment this hazardous waste product touches our planet, it starts a process that eventually harms our very fragile environment. Heaven forbid if this hazardous waste material gets into our street drainage systems or nearby waterways. Fear not! I'm sure that our beloved environmentalists are lobbying our local, state and federal governments to regulate and eventually eliminate the terrible problem of leaf pollution!

Seriously, I'm very environmentally minded, but as always, we're only told the frightening side of the environmental effects and the relative effects are always conveniently hidden, or concealed. Organic leaf matter and organic beet matter have the exact same effects on our environment, virtually none.


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## kevhead20

Hinkler;1088476 said:


> Please cite the studies if available


The National Cooperative Highway Research Program finished a study/testing within the last year or so. It's report number 577 project 6-16. I also put a lot of stock in the fact that our mfg was one of the first to start working with blends in the early part of the decade and subsequently stopped the product line.


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## fireball

leaf hugger


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## kevhead20

Beet juice 30/70 increases sodium chloride's ice melt capacity 23.5% @ 0o F, and slightly less than that at 10o F and 20o F.

_I don't think this adds value. Liquid deicers are already so dilute that they have very little ice melt capacity to start with. A 23% increase over very little is still very little. For example, at 0 deg F and an application rate of 50 gal/lane-mile, the theoretical melt capacity of 23% NaCl brine is equivalent to melting an ice layer of 0.00015 inches thick. A 23% increase in melt capacity amounts to melting an ice layer of 0.00018inches thick an insignificant difference in the real world. The purpose of liquid deicers is to (1) prevent a bond from forming when anti-icing, (2) to reduce bounce and scatter and to jump start action of solid rock salt when prewetting._ 
_Where's the hard data to support the claim? Who did the testing? Was the composition of the blend verified by analysis? Was blend composition representative of what would be available in the real world, (load up salt brine with beet juice and NaCl precipitates out, especially at cold temperatures)?_

Beet juice 30/70 reduces sodium chloride's freeze point from -6 to -28.4.

_Again, no big deal. This would only be important if someone was storing the blend in subzero temperatures. Then, making sure the beet juice stays uniformly mixed while in storage may become an issue.

Where's the data to support the claim? Who did the testing? What test method was used? Did the test method protect against super-cooling which would give an artificially low freeze point relative to real world performance._ 


Beet juice 30/70 reduces sodium chloride's relative corrosion from 100 to 22, or 78%.

_Dipping a mild steel washer in a beaker in a lab does not represent corrosion in the real world, where different alloys and metals are exposed to conditions that include spray and grit and temperature cycling and so on and so on. DOT trucks and spreading equipment that routinely handle concentrated liquid deicer may see some benefit of reduced corrosion with beet juice addition, however there is no basis to believe that the general public sees any benefit. In fact, anecdotal evidence would indicate that the public has seen increased corrosion issues with the advent of corrosion-inhibited liquid deicers.
Can your eyeball tell the difference between a 10 mil per year corrosion rate and a 5 mil per year corrosion rate? Rust is still rust and chlorides in the presence of water and oxygen will accelerate corrosion in an open system no matter what. 
_

Even though these facts are very impressive, many public works professionals say that the real benefit is the residual effect that the beet juice gives them. Every APWA tradeshow that I have attended (4) this year, including the national event, has included guest speakers who highly recommend using beet juice. They always tout its residual effect as saving them money. If the residue of the previously applied de-icer is capable of handling a small weather event, or frost, the fleet of trucks stays at the shop, thereby, saving fuel, de-icer, labor and wear and tear on equipment. There are some very informative videos on YouTube. Just get on YouTube and search something like Beet Juice De-icer.

_There are enough people reporting that the sticky nature of the beet juice helps keep the NaCl on the road prior to a storm event that I believe there is some validity to this benefit. Any road maintenance manager that bases his/her strategy off of YouTube videos is a fool. _

Historically speaking, beet juice de-icers have been very expensive. Today, that is not the case at all. Beet juice de-icers can be purchased at a beet juice de-icer plant in northern Indiana for $1.22 per gallon, plus a fill charge for purchases less than 1,200 gallons. They even have a custom "superblend" de-icer for $0.92 per gallon that can be cut with sodium chloride brine 1:1. After blending this "superblend" with 24% sodium chloride, it will melt as much ice as 32% calcium chloride @ 0o F, is 82% less corrosive, and will cost you about $0.61 per gallon which is less than 32% calcium chloride, plus you get all of the residual benefits that calcium chloride and sodium chloride do not and cannot give you.

_What application are we talking about; anti-icing, prewetting or both? Sponsor a series of side-by-side performance tests throughout the course of a full winter and may the best deicer win, with economics based on the total of all application-related costs, not just on product cost. $0.61 per gallon is not less than 32% calcium chloride in our market area.

Again, where's the hard data and all the associated details to support the melting claim versus 32% CaCl2? Something seems wrong here as the theoretical calculation based on independent phase curve data at 0 deg F indicates that a 50 gal/lane-mile application rate of 23% brine is equivalent to about 7 gal/lane-mile of 32% CaCl2 on an equal ice-melting basis._


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## Juice Induced

*A fools response.*

Being the fool I am, I reviewed the video again and the claims appear to be in line with readily available numbers published by numerous other sources. The University of Iowa has several lengthy studies written by Wilford Nixon, PHD, a renowned ice control researcher.

_For example, at 0 deg F and an application rate of 50 gal/lane-mile, the theoretical melt capacity of 23% NaCl brine is equivalent to melting an ice layer of 0.00015 inches thick. A 23% increase in melt capacity amounts to melting an ice layer of 0.00018inches thick an insignificant difference in the real world._

So, what is the "insignificant difference" in ice melt capacity between 32% CaCl2 and 23.3% NaCl?

Regarding freeze point, if you would have watched their other video, you would have discovered that the method used was ASTM D 1177-88

Regarding the corrosion data, your take on it should be shared with the Pacific Northwest Snowfighters.

_Can your eyeball tell the difference between a 10 mil per year corrosion rate and a 5 mil per year corrosion rate?_

When you write it down on paper, the eyeball sees that 5 mil is 50% less than 10 mil, and 10 mil is 100% more than 50 mil.

_There are enough people reporting that the sticky nature of the beet juice helps keep the NaCl on the road prior to a storm event that I believe there is some validity to this benefit._

As I said,

_Many public works professionals say that the real benefit is the residual effect that the beet juice gives them. Every APWA tradeshow that I have attended (4) this year, including the national event, has included guest speakers who highly recommend using beet juice. They always tout its residual effect as saving them money. If the residue of the previously applied de-icer is capable of handling a small weather event, or frost, the fleet of trucks stays at the shop, thereby, saving fuel, de-icer, labor and wear and tear on equipment._

Thanks for confirming this statement.

Regarding the ice melt data, one of their other videos stated that they used SHRP 205.2. I'm not aware of any other ice melt capacity methods for liquids.


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## Juice Induced

*A fools correction!*

Correction!

_Can your eyeball tell the difference between a 10 mil per year corrosion rate and a 5 mil per year corrosion rate? _

When you write it down on paper, the eyeball sees that 5 mil is 50% less than 10 mil, and 10 mil is 100% more than 5 mil, not 50 mil.

d


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## snowish10

My boss I believe sells beet juice.


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