# NEED HELP ON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL BID



## earthscapesnj (Sep 6, 2017)

We are new to commercial plowing this season but we just got the lawn contract with the elementary school and now they want us to put a bid in on plowing the lot with a 2" trigger, salting lot, walkways, and sidewalks, as well as clearing those sidewalks as well. I attached a photo with the lot, driveway going through the lot, and highlighted the walkways. 
Any help would be appreciated. I know that everyone has a different price because everyones numbers are different, but I am looking for a ballpark so I can at least be in range and not look like a fool..

Thanks!


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## R75419 (Feb 11, 2012)

Bout a hundred dollas.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

You are brand new to snow management. Do you have the equipment to plow and salt with? Do you have equipment to clear the sidewalks?

The map says your in NJ. Do you have insurance to cover snow operations on a government facility? From what i have seen on this site its next to impossible for new companies to get underwritten for snow this year in NJ.

In order to not look like a fool you need to know how long it will take you to manage the property with the equipment you have. Then add in all the overhead and acceptable profit margin, and you have your price. Being in range is irrelevant. Bidding it using your numbers, and making a profit so that you can stay in business and continue to service the property is relevant.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Spring Lake, NJ. Here's what I would do first. Go get your insurance quote. Make sure you are up front with them on what your going to be performing. Then if you still want to proceed, you want to try for a retainer fee. It.only snowed a few times the last few years. You need to come out ahead, or your going to loose your shirt.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

and remember zero tolerance...must be wet or dry from 7 am till 6pm


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

With all that side walk it don't give you a whole lot of places to push snow. If you were awarded the lawn I'm assuming you have a GL and WC? Don't disappear if you really want to do this you come to the right spot, Especially with Guys from your area responding.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

leolkfrm said:


> and remember zero tolerance...must be wet or dry from 7 am till 6pm


They got Maintenance snow wizards in them schools. 2'' trigger but you know anything under they will want salt. Going to lose some parking spots from piles or have to remove it. Unless I'm discombobulated again. I see no green line.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

pile it in the outfield for baseball diamonds


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

FredG said:


> They got Maintenance snow wizards in them schools. 2'' trigger but you know anything under they will want salt. Going to lose some parking spots from piles or have to remove it. Unless I'm discombobulated again. I see no green line.


I would take up those 5 spots on the northeast side. Wouldn't block sight of the traffic for the North road.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Just windrow it all to the baseball field. Even if there is a curb there. You can windrow right over the top of it


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## earthscapesnj (Sep 6, 2017)

ktfbgb said:


> You are brand new to snow management. Do you have the equipment to plow and salt with? Do you have equipment to clear the sidewalks?
> 
> The map says your in NJ. Do you have insurance to cover snow operations on a government facility? From what i have seen on this site its next to impossible for new companies to get underwritten for snow this year in NJ.
> 
> In order to not look like a fool you need to know how long it will take you to manage the property with the equipment you have. Then add in all the overhead and acceptable profit margin, and you have your price. Being in range is irrelevant. Bidding it using your numbers, and making a profit so that you can stay in business and continue to service the property is relevant.


New to plowing, been doing driveways and small lots with 3 honda hs1132's for the past 4 years, fully insured for snow already


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

It's an elementary school..... use basic math.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

1olddogtwo said:


> It's an elementary school..... use basic math.


It's common core math now.....A whole new ball game...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

earthscapesnj said:


> New to plowing, been doing driveways and small lots with 3 honda hs1132's for the past 4 years, fully insured for snow already


So, you went to your insurance company, showed them the school, and explained what services your performing. What was the requirements for the GL from the school?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

earthscapesnj said:


> New to plowing, been doing driveways and small lots with 3 honda hs1132's for the past 4 years, fully insured for snow already


There is a giant difference between the premium from running a snowblower on residential and tiny lots to what they are going to charge you to run plows, salters, and sidewalk machines on government facilities and public walks. Make sure you check that your insurance is fully aware of this account to make sure you are covered. It's New Jersey the land of slip and fall lawsuits. On an elementary school grounds where every kid there is gonna slip and fall. Most likely the parents will too. You need to be covered for when you get sued not if you get sued.

You still haven't said what equipment you will be using to cover this lot or the walks.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I'd probably be around 750.00 a pop, not including salt. I never got into that end. But here in this town, if that lot ain't perfect. Let me tell you, elementary school mom's are vicious creatures. And they will complain.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

You have come to right site to get a education about education. While you read about insurance, equipment and soccer moms there is something else that is a greater threat to you and only occurs in New Jersey. They have a series of laws regarding services between school districts and other governmental units such as townships, counties, and the state. These laws are on the books since 1990 and are very hard to administer. What it means is if the school district has a agreement with Morris county to share services you might have to perform the same service at the same price to all the school school districts in Morris county. Most of the time the system works for the school districts in that they could buy a truck or car on the state contract thousands less than they could do themselves from a local dealer. Snow removal is one service that is a common denominator between all these associations. Most of the time the school districts use the local township public works to plow the lots and muster the janitorial staff to shovel. Dead battery will finish later


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Anyway, you will find a simplified version at www.njslom.org/magart0505_page8.html. Or Google search shared services between school districts and governmental units in New Jersey. New Jersey is the only state where this trending form of public acquisition is mandatory but it is gaining traction everywhere. The actual administration of the practice has shown that the really small school districts have been very frugal in their purchases but it is really because a lot of small contractors who are trying to get their foot in the door don't know their costs yet and bid low. What happens on the landscape side of school districts is that the districts like to treat their grounds people to set up table and chairs for special events etc. This type of service makes it unique service and not easily shared with other governmental units. Like who picks up litter after a football game. Hello they have to get convicts to pick up litter in PA.

Things to ponder:
You have to criminal background checks on employees. While you might be only 2 or 3 guys to cut grass. No big deal might cost you 300 bucks to do 3 guys no big deal. You might need 10 guys to shovel, now you are talking money. Now a Northeaster is bearing down on you and you are going to get 24 inches of wet heavy snow in two days, so you need 20 guys and it takes six weeks to do background checks. As a previous poster stated you need to cover these costs in a fixed contract.
Never never never dump snow on a athletic field. Field usage is the most important thing out there. Having to forfeit games while you watch snow melt is a bad scene.
Having a plan for sidewalk s is critical. One of most powerful things out there is a 60 lb first grader the pressure they exert with a size five boot is twice that of 300 lb adult with size twelve boots. Once they pack the snow down with footprints you have to work hard with ice control or labor to get it clean. So you have to schedule things when the kids are coming and going. For example the kids arrive by bus at 8am .You need to have a path cleared from the buses to the door by 7:50 . You have the rest of the day to shovel the walkway to the tennis court. You have to pay attention to how the kids walk at the beginning and ending of the day. There is a difference between how elementary, middle school, and high school kids walk. Elementary boys walk around trees a lot. High school girls will walk abreast while boys will follow in groups of two. Think about rotary brushes before blowers


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I had no idea elementary school kids played baseball in January. NJ kids must be tough. Oh wait, never mind.....................


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

ktfbgb said:


> I had no idea elementary school kids played baseball in January. NJ kids must be tough. Oh wait, never mind.....................


No they play in spring when piles are melting.
You can window some on smaller storms. But most of the snow from that road needs to be pushed into the lot and then stacked on the right side of parking lot.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Legally in Jersey, this is supposed to go out to an advertised bid. They have requirements in the bid packet you pick up from the entity. They have to be in by a certain time. Then they are opened, reviewed, and awarded. By law if the total amount spent is over 18000.00. something like that. It has to be done this way. My last bid to a town I put in was over a hundred pages.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> I'd probably be around 750.00 a pop, not including salt. I never got into that end. But here in this town, if that lot ain't perfect. Let me tell you, elementary school mom's are vicious creatures. And they will complain.


Sign me up for $750.00 lol


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

FredG said:


> Sign me up for $750.00 lol


$749...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> $749...


Good one lol.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

leolkfrm said:


> and remember zero tolerance...must be wet or dry from 7 am till 6pm


Zero Tolerance with a 2" Trigger....Im confused more than normal


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Zero Tolerance with a 2" Trigger....Im confused more than normal


X2 They put 2'' trigger to get a lower bid than they expect you to salt anything under. That's what happened on the job I got 86ed off.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

Defcon 5 said:


> Zero Tolerance with a 2" Trigger....Im confused more than normal


no ice and plows down at 2 inches


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

fireball said:


> You have come to right site to get a education about education. While you read about insurance, equipment and soccer moms there is something else that is a greater threat to you and only occurs in New Jersey. They have a series of laws regarding services between school districts and other governmental units such as townships, counties, and the state. These laws are on the books since 1990 and are very hard to administer. What it means is if the school district has a agreement with Morris county to share services you might have to perform the same service at the same price to all the school school districts in Morris county. Most of the time the system works for the school districts in that they could buy a truck or car on the state contract thousands less than they could do themselves from a local dealer. Snow removal is one service that is a common denominator between all these associations. Most of the time the school districts use the local township public works to plow the lots and muster the janitorial staff to shovel. Dead battery will finish later


So if I'm reading this right... if he wins the bid for a certain price in one district at a better price than the other bids in the other district's in the county, they can make him plow all the district's in the county for that same price?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Freshwater said:


> So if I'm reading this right... if he wins the bid for a certain price in one district at a better price than the other bids in the other district's in the county, they can make him plow all the district's in the county for that same price?


That's how I read it too. I don't think they can make him do all the sites though. Just if he wanted the sites he would have to do them for that price.

Right? I don't think they can make you do more because what if he didn't have the capability to more sites.

Either way glad I don't have to play like that.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Freshwater said:


> So if I'm reading this right... if he wins the bid for a certain price in one district at a better price than the other bids in the other district's in the county, they can make him plow all the district's in the county for that same price?


I do a lot of work for my town, and the next town over. I don't want to get into an argument, whatever about this. We in Jersey have what's called shared services. But prior agreements have to be in place. It ain't gonna happen there. The town he's bidding on is VERY WEALTHY. If it's the one I'm thinking of, I knew the township administrator from a few years ago.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

My purpose was to warn the original poster that there is additional things to consider when bidding public entities in New Jersey. Shared services is a public policy that is gaining ground. It will probably be part of the FAR(federal acquisition regulations)shortly. As far as what the laws say and mean you need lawyers and they make more money than plow owners. This won't be the first time that a public official forgot to mention that they are prior agreements. Make sure the bid has verbiage describing prior agreements. Me personally would try to get the school district to make it a all inclusive bid of landscaping and snow removal with twelve monthly payments.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ktfbgb said:


> Just windrow it all to the baseball field. Even if there is a curb there. You can windrow right over the top of it


What, Windrow on to the sidewalk? There is sidewalk all around the parking area lol.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm not in NJ and I know expenses are more than mine. Most Contractors around here would drool to pick that up for $750.00 salt not included. My Bombi and drop spreader would crush the walks and curb line. And the parking area and roads are cake.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

FredG said:


> What, Windrow on to the sidewalk? There is sidewalk all around the parking area lol.


Your right I just saw the sidewalk on both sides of the road. All snow needs to be pushed into the lot then stacked to the side of the lot. That's a lot of carrying. If they get a big heavy wet storm, with a truck and snowblowers, that crew will never leave that lot.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

fireball said:


> My purpose was to warn the original poster that there is additional things to consider when bidding public entities in New Jersey. Shared services is a public policy that is gaining ground. It will probably be part of the FAR(federal acquisition regulations)shortly. As far as what the laws say and mean you need lawyers and they make more money than plow owners. This won't be the first time that a public official forgot to mention that they are prior agreements. Make sure the bid has verbiage describing prior agreements. Me personally would try to get the school district to make it a all inclusive bid of landscaping and snow removal with twelve monthly payments.


That's what this site is for. You and randell are providing a great education here. The OP may have fled, but I and others are always interested in learning how different areas do things. I'm still not sure if I read that right.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

The OP never came back to day what equipment they have. You need more than one truck, it's a school, they don't want to hear about a break down. It has to be done, on time, period. With the little snow we get here. By the time you purchase the equipment, get the insurance. It's a long road ahead before you turn a profit.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Freshwater said:


> That's what this site is for. You and randell are providing a great education here. The OP may have fled, but I and others are always interested in learning how different areas do things. I'm still not sure if I read that right.


Truthfully, to get into any municipal work. Ya gotta know someone on the inside.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> Truthfully, to get into any municipal work. Ya gotta know someone on the inside.[/QUOTE
> For Sure, He got the lawn somehow. I would assume they qualified him on that or knew somebody. The problem may be he can not be qualified on snow work.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

NJ has some crazy rules for sure. On top of the type of winters you have. Not a lot of avg snow totals, but a huge noreaster always hiding behind door number 3. 
Knowing somebody makes the world turn.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Freshwater said:


> Your right I just saw the sidewalk on both sides of the road. All snow needs to be pushed into the lot then stacked to the side of the lot. That's a lot of carrying. If they get a big heavy wet storm, with a truck and snowblowers, that crew will never leave that lot.


There's also a fence around the outside perimeter of the parking lot.


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## CHPL (Oct 26, 2003)

The biggest issue is that once his insurance company becomes aware that he added a school,with hundreds of people coming and going daily he will be dropped. We do snow and have insurance with high rates, when we have tried to shop a new carrier they have no desire to quote when they get our property addresses.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

CHPL said:


> The biggest issue is that once his insurance company becomes aware that he added a school,with hundreds of people coming and going daily he will be dropped. We do snow and have insurance with high rates, when we have tried to shop a new carrier they have no desire to quote when they get our property addresses.


I have never been dropped in NY. I have been asked to pay a higher premium to do a 24 hr grocery store one time lots of traffic. The job was not worth the increase. I just stay with what they don't have any issues with. Condo's, Apt complex, HOA, Office parks and plaza's that are not open 24hr. I would probably do residential and small commercial if I was in NJ.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

FredG said:


> What, Windrow on to the sidewalk? There is sidewalk all around the parking area lol.


I couldn't see a sidewalk on the baseball field idenof the lot. Maybe because he had drawn over it or something.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

ktfbgb said:


> I couldn't see a sidewalk on the baseball field idenof the lot. Maybe because he had drawn over it or something.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Ah yep no sidewalk on the field side of the lot.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

The last time I bid a town. In the bid, I had to already have the insurance in place, and the township had to be listed as an additional insured party.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ktfbgb said:


> Ah yep no sidewalk on the field side of the lot.


The Op marked out the area to be plowed in red, I thought he said the markers were sidewalk. The second shot clearly shows no walk on the field side.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Couple of islands too you really can't see in the first shot.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

I don't think you have to know somebody to get these contracts. What you have to remember is that schools and hospitals are very dependent on public support for their facilities. Scoreboard is struck by lightening, it could take up to a year for a insurance company and a school district to get a new board. Local business steps forward and buys a new board. The school needs support and if the local businesses don't see the trickle down to them they won't support. So the public administrator tries to give these small contracts to local companies as much as possible. What happens is the new little guy who doesn't understand this local support starts buying his fertilizer from Site One in Windsor instead of the local Agway in Spring Lake. Obviously the original poster is cutting the grass so he already knows somebody. I prefer to think that he is doing a good job, they like him and they want him to do more. He just has to figure out what to charge. I'm at 28,000 for the season. It really depends on what the specifications are for the school. As far as insurance is concerned he already has it, he just has to expand the coverages. He might not be able to afford the new rate. 

Be aware that according to the pictures, 6th ave is a right of way for the town the school is in . Goes right through the middle of site. Oops is there a pre-existing agreement between the town or school or do both parties assume. Start doing the town's work and you acquire a whole list of liabilities including shared services.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

fireball said:


> I don't think you have to know somebody to get these contracts. What you have to remember is that schools and hospitals are very dependent on public support for their facilities. Scoreboard is struck by lightening, it could take up to a year for a insurance company and a school district to get a new board. Local business steps forward and buys a new board. The school needs support and if the local businesses don't see the trickle down to them they won't support. So the public administrator tries to give these small contracts to local companies as much as possible. What happens is the new little guy who doesn't understand this local support starts buying his fertilizer from Site One in Windsor instead of the local Agway in Spring Lake. Obviously the original poster is cutting the grass so he already knows somebody. I prefer to think that he is doing a good job, they like him and they want him to do more. He just has to figure out what to charge. I'm at 28,000 for the season. It really depends on what the specifications are for the school. As far as insurance is concerned he already has it, he just has to expand the coverages. He might not be able to afford the new rate.
> 
> Be aware that according to the pictures, 6th ave is a right of way for the town the school is in . Goes right through the middle of site. Oops is there a pre-existing agreement between the town or school or do both parties assume. Start doing the town's work and you acquire a whole list of liabilities including shared services.


I'll tell you if you don't need to know somebody it's a lot different than NY. 28K!!! based on how many snow events? It's a short 3 rows of parking I'm hoping you could plow it in less than a hour in a truck with another hr for sidewalk and have your spreader visit. The price sounds outrages to me but I don't live there. Based on my snow amounts and predicted trips you would be earning $1120.00 per trip which you would be laughed out of that job. Not to stir the pot but that's a ton of money in my world. Again I don't know your expenses in NJ. I guess I'm just jealous. lol


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

NJ is probably the only place that would ever get that much for that tiny of a property. Especially since they don’t really get any snow.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

ktfbgb said:


> NJ is probably the only place that would ever get that much for that tiny of a property. Especially since they don't really get any snow.


That's the problem here. Insurance rates are crazy, but not much snow anymore. Very hard to turn a profit. Most of the people round here doing drives and such have no insurance.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

ktfbgb said:


> NJ is probably the only place that would ever get that much for that tiny of a property. Especially since they don't really get any snow.


Yeah 28k sounds crazy, but, your right NJ is all costs and overhead.
School not withstanding, a lot that size with the walks would go for $250 or so here in mi.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

That sounds more like what i would get here without any salt.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I would have to get $11k to $11200. for the wizard and Mom's if it was not a school a little less..Sounds like the insurance company's are gouging. Suppose to be against the law..


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

FredG said:


> I would have to get $11k to $11200. for the wizard and Mom's if it was not a school a little less..Sounds like the insurance company's are gouging. Suppose to be against the law..


They just know the risks in NJ, not illegal to set prices according to risk assessments.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Randall Ave said:


> That's the problem here. Insurance rates are crazy, but not much snow anymore. Very hard to turn a profit. Most of the people round here doing drives and such have no insurance.


Not saying it's right, and I'd never chance it... but my ins guy couldn't recall a claim on a driveway in 14yrs in business. Add to the fact the rates out there, it's hard to blame guys.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I like that there are 56 replies to a thread the OP never returned to


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Freshwater said:


> Not saying it's right, and I'd never chance it... but my ins guy couldn't recall a claim on a driveway in 14yrs in business. Add to the fact the rates out there, it's hard to blame guys.


I know a guy, first time out he threw his father in the truck, one garage door later


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

JMHConstruction said:


> I like that there are 56 replies to a thread the OP never returned to


Stick a fork in her, she's done. My guess has always been, not all, but some people ask a question, thinking they know the answer, and don't like the answer they get from guys who have been doing it for years.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Randall Ave said:


> Stick a fork in her, she's done. My guess has always been, not all, but some people ask a question, thinking they know the answer, and don't like the answer they get from guys who have been doing it for years.


Funny how that works, why I try to get along with people, try to learn a little from everyone.

And yes that garage door is what would keep me ins,even at NJ rates.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> They just know the risks in NJ, not illegal to set prices according to risk assessments.


Who knows the risk the insurance company? By what risk factors? Are you trying to say NJ has contractors that are F ups and New Jersey ins are sue happy or just dumb?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

FredG said:


> Who knows the risk the insurance company? By what risk factors? Are you trying to say NJ has contractors that are F ups and New Jersey ins are sue happy or just dumb?


I'm just saying the insurance company pays a lot of money to make and receive risk assessments for everything. Same reason a male teen is more expensive to insure than a female. Just like all of us, they're not in the business to lose money. History has shown that the court systems in NJ favors the "victim", therefore the insurance rates are higher. Not blaming anyone but sue happy Americans and a court system that doesn't recognize stupidity and throw certain cases out the window.

If it's the contractors fault, and he/she blatantly underperformed, then yes it should be on that contractor. It's the cases you hear about that common sense should be applied that are costing everyone. From what I hear in NJ the contractors and insurance company take a HUGE risk, therefore the contractors pay out the a$$ for insurance.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

FredG said:


> Who knows the risk the insurance company? By what risk factors? Are you trying to say NJ has contractors that are F ups and New Jersey ins are sue happy or just dumb?


Oh and I know 1 that seems to be an f up, but we'll blame everyone else for his mistakes.:laugh:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> I'm just saying the insurance company pays a lot of money to make and receive risk assessments for everything. Same reason a male teen is more expensive to insure than a female. Just like all of us, they're not in the business to lose money. History has shown that the court systems in NJ favors the "victim", therefore the insurance rates are higher. Not blaming anyone but sue happy Americans and a court system that doesn't recognize stupidity and throw certain cases out the window.
> 
> If it's the contractors fault, and he/she blatantly underperformed, then yes it should be on that contractor. It's the cases you hear about that common sense should be applied that are costing everyone. From what I hear in NJ the contractors and insurance company take a HUGE risk, therefore the contractors pay out the a$$ for insurance.


No there not in biz to lose money and neither is a contractor, I find it hard to believe by just crossing the river that you should have high rates. I like my insurance people about as much as I like my attorney. You ever put a claim in? How did you make out? Some :terribletowel:demolished my Volvo with 16K miles. I got plucked like a chicken. Took a lot of time arguing back and fourth to get a fair price. **** happens now and then you just can't be on the collecting high premiums and forget about payouts.

From my experience with my 59 yrs on this earth the insurance company's are not the most honest. You got good credit and a good driving record you should be good to go.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Furthermore how bad can NJ people be next to NY people?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Freshwater said:


> Funny how that works, why I try to get along with people, try to learn a little from everyone.
> 
> And yes that garage door is what would keep me ins,even at NJ rates.


He just ran with the numbers that were left, LOL


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

FredG said:


> He just ran with the numbers that were left, LOL


Bet he's still reading this thread though.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Freshwater said:


> Bet he's still reading this thread though.


Posted Thur, Last seen 6:53 pm. Fri. lol


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

NJ people are not worse than NY people. Move to Iraq and plow snow for Kurds


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

fireball said:


> NJ people are not worse than NY people. Move to Iraq and plow snow for Kurds


Turn it into a glass parking lot first though lol.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

fireball said:


> NJ people are not worse than NY people. Move to Iraq and plow snow for Kurds


No thanks the jungle was enough for me. There is a reason insurance rates are high in NJ...I'll say it again. The contractors are :terribletowel:'s along with the general public or your getting gouged. I would think your getting Gouged !!!! I can't believe the public could be that much different crossing the river. Your proposed bid was $17K more than mine and others, I'm in NY.  NY has the 2nd highest cost of living second to Hawaii.


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