# Who plows with tow haul ON??



## GMCHD plower (Nov 27, 2009)

Who plows with tow haul ON?? Excpetially with gas trucks?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

GMCHD plower;1081944 said:


> Who plows with tow haul ON?? Excpetially with gas trucks?


I do on my Ford. It usually has salt in it though. I know with Ford's driving with tow/haul on changes the shift points.


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## GMCHD plower (Nov 27, 2009)

Brian Young;1081957 said:


> I do on my Ford. It usually has salt in it though. I know with Ford's driving with tow/haul on changes the shift points.


I belive GM's does that too. Reason I ask is I was riding with a friend of mine last winter and he had it on, he said it's because of the 800lbs of plow on the front+ he had around 800lbs of ballest, mind you this was in a 6.6 duramax. Just wondering in any guys do it with their gas trucks (especially with the new 6.0's)


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## XxChevy-HDxX (Jul 15, 2010)

I do in my 06 it helps with all the weight


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Why not just put it in 4 hi and go? You're ruining your trans with tow haul and 4x4 hi on. Plus you don't need it.


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## Raconteur (Oct 3, 2010)

ajslands;1082078 said:


> Why not just put it in 4 hi and go? You're ruining your trans with tow haul and 4x4 hi on. Plus you don't need it.


Why does using 4H and TH ruin the transmission ?


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## mycirus (Dec 6, 2008)

You dont need tow haul. I only use it for, well towing and hauling, but not plowing.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

mycirus;1082200 said:


> You dont need tow haul. I only use it for, well towing and hauling, but not plowing.


Perfect!!!!!!!


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## sven_502 (Nov 1, 2008)

Raconteur;1082136 said:


> Why does using 4H and TH ruin the transmission ?


Also curious how it ruins the tranny?


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## Cosmic Charlie (Feb 1, 2009)

My 04 2500 HD GAS will SHIFT AT 2200 RPM in Tow Haul, kinda sucks winding it out - not necessary - so I just put it in D and go - smooth enough and never seems to LUG ...


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## mycirus (Dec 6, 2008)

sven_502;1082261 said:


> Also curious how it ruins the tranny?


It is talked about in this thread and B and B says it best. Read on.... http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=105330&highlight=tow/haul


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## the new boss 92 (Nov 29, 2008)

ajslands;1082078 said:


> Why not just put it in 4 hi and go? You're ruining your trans with tow haul and 4x4 hi on. Plus you don't need it.


what does tow haul mode and 4x4 have to do with each other???? if i was to push some real heavy stuff i would have it on for breaking power and so the tranny wouldnt try on **** and over work itself.plowing in tow haul mode and using 4x4 does nothing to the trand, if anything it helps it.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

the new boss 92;1082358 said:


> what does tow haul mode and 4x4 have to do with each other???? if i was to push some real heavy stuff i would have it on for breaking power and so the tranny wouldnt try on **** and over work itself.plowing in tow haul mode and using 4x4 does nothing to the trand, if anything it helps it.


It is putting more strain on it so it won't last as long, and why not just use 4 lo to push heavy snow.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

ajslands;1082388 said:


> It is putting more strain on it so it won't last as long, and why not just use 4 lo to push heavy snow.


You have no idea what you are talking about........


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

JDiepstra;1082394 said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about........


i'm still unsure if i need a DOT number? i was hoping you could clear things up for me.

as for your statement, i have a pretty good idea of what I am talking about (plowing with tow haul on.)


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

ajslands;1082406 said:


> i'm still unsure if i need a DOT number? i was hoping you could clear things up for me.
> 
> as for your statement, i have a pretty good idea of what I am talking about (plowing with tow haul on.)


"its putting more strain on it" is not an answer whatsoever. You don't have any idea what you are talking about.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

JDiepstra;1082409 said:


> "its putting more strain on it" is not an answer whatsoever. You don't have any idea what you are talking about.


Don't forget to answer my first question,


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

ajslands;1082410 said:


> Don't forget to answer my first question,


Why would I do that? That's not on topic at all.

Honestly man, you post in pretty much every thread, and most of your posts are useless. I don't even read most of them anymore because they are so useless.


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## snoway63 (Dec 29, 2009)

My ford manual says to use tow haul mode when plowing and it wont hurt your tranny if anything it saves the tranny, it allows it to run cooler with less stress from shifting to much


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## 02DURAMAX (Dec 27, 2006)

snoway63;1082429 said:


> My ford manual says to use tow haul mode when plowing and it wont hurt your tranny if anything it saves the tranny, it allows it to run cooler with less stress from shifting to much


We have a WINNER!!!!!!!!!!


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## 02DURAMAX (Dec 27, 2006)

ajslands;1082410 said:


> Why not just put it in 4 hi and go? You're ruining your trans with tow haul and 4x4 hi on. Plus you don't need it.


Maybe its just a ford thing?

Tow/Haul helps your trans & Engine run cooler.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

snoway63;1082429 said:


> My ford manual says to use tow haul mode when plowing and it wont hurt your tranny if anything it saves the tranny, it allows it to run cooler with less stress from shifting to much


Yeah---but what kind of plowing? Are we talking about doing roads where you're almost constantly going non-stop forward or constantly back and forth like in a parking lot???????Read B&B's explanation thoroughly and then relate that to how your Ford drivetrain operates.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

JDiepstra;1082409 said:


> "its putting more strain on it" is not an answer whatsoever. You don't have any idea what you are talking about.


Hee hee hee ...


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

snoway63;1082429 said:


> My ford manual says to use tow haul mode when plowing and it wont hurt your tranny if anything it saves the tranny, it allows it to run cooler with less stress from shifting to much


Exactly, the less shifting a transmission does the better for it. Usually you have some weight in the bed for ballast, so to me thats "hauling". Plus I have a dump bed insert that probably weighs 700lbs. Two of the best things you can do to a transmission (in our situations) is a tranny cooler AND a shift kit. With a newer trucks, shifting might be controlled by the computer. I had a programable chip installed in my Ford and he changed shift points, and the pressure in which it shifts into gear. Older trucks could achieve this with a simple shift kit. The less the clutches rub together, like they do when they shift "smoothly" the better. To me there are 4 things that will save or prolong transmission problems......Tranny cooler, shift kit, changing fluid regularly and coming to a compete stop when plowing and shifting.


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## FLC2004 (Aug 29, 2010)

I would think the tow/haul would make the trans run hotter cause of all the extra down shifting and higher rpms  What would be the advantage for plowing with it on? Why not just use 4 HI? We dont use it that much on our trucks even for towing.


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

I've plowed with mostly all GM trucks. Gas/Diesel, 1500/2500/3500, etc. The trucks seem to plow best in Tow/Haul. I don't plow any super long roads, just long driveways and decent size lots. Tow/haul works best for me


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## the new boss 92 (Nov 29, 2008)

tow haul basically hold the gears longer so it doesnt **** up the tranny and work the clutches and everything else. i would deff use tow haul mode. i use to use it on my dads 6.0 when i was driving to and coming uo to red lights to save the breaks and ****. tow haul mode can be used when ever not just towing and hauling


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## BIGBEN2004 (Aug 28, 2008)

FLC2004;1082576 said:


> I would think the tow/haul would make the trans run hotter cause of all the extra down shifting and higher rpms  What would be the advantage for plowing with it on? Why not just use 4 HI? We dont use it that much on our trucks even for towing.


It allows the tranny to run cooler when tow haul is on because it locks the Torque Converter and that keeps the tranny temp cooler when working. Less slippage equals less heat.


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## GMCHD plower (Nov 27, 2009)

Thanks guys, I was assuming it would be better for the tranny, but I figured I'd ask.


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## Fatality (Jul 14, 2009)

Does TH work when you plow in 1st in an automatic tranny?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

mycirus;1082268 said:


> It is talked about in this thread and B and B says it best. Read on.... http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=105330&highlight=tow/haul


That only applies on the Allison's which was the subject trans at hand in that thread. The 4L60E, 4L80E, 6L80/90E's don't have the ability to apply the TC below 3rd gear so excessive TC wear by using T/H during slow or short run plowing isn't a problem.

So T/H can help marginally on all the others by reducing early upshifts at low speeds and short travel distances (referred to as shift busyness)...but so does running the shifter in the correct position for the job at hand.

T/H or no T/H is NOT a yes or no answer. Depends on which trans you're running and the type of work you're doing. It is not a replacement for driver skills. How did we all survive without T/H, ABS, auto headlamps, torque management/abuse management and rev limiters? Intelligence and skill.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

B&B;1082795 said:


> That only applies on the Allison's which was the subject trans at hand in that thread. The 4L60E, 4L80E, 6L80/90E's don't have the ability to apply the TC below 3rd gear so excessive TC wear by using T/H during slow or short run plowing isn't a problem.
> 
> So T/H can help marginally on all the others by reducing early upshifts at low speeds and short travel distances (referred to as shift busyness)...but so does running the shifter in the correct position for the job at hand.
> 
> T/H or no T/H is NOT a yes or no answer. Depends on which trans you're running and the type of work you're doing. It is not a replacement for driver skills. How did we all survive without T/H, ABS, auto headlamps, torque management/abuse management and rev limiters? Intelligence and skill.


B+B thanks for another good post. I was wondering if you know if a 48RE will lock up in 2nd in T/H. I do not believe it will but am not sure. I feel I have been having success running in T/H while plowing lots. Thanks again.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

JDiepstra;1082931 said:


> B+B thanks for another good post. I was wondering if you know if a 48RE will lock up in 2nd in T/H. I do not believe it will but am not sure. I feel I have been having success running in T/H while plowing lots. Thanks again.


You're ok with the 48RE too, they won't apply the TC below 3rd.


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

So what useful info am I supposed to take away from this thread? With an Allison trans, Tow/haul is good for longer pushes and roads; but causes excessive transfer case wear when doing driveways. Right? When B&B speaks we listen


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

cubanb343;1083040 said:


> So what useful info am I supposed to take away from this thread? With an Allison trans, Tow/haul is good for longer pushes and roads; but causes excessive transfer case wear when doing driveways. Right? When B&B speaks we listen


Not transfer case wear, torque converter wear. But otherwise yes to all your thinking.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

cubanb343;1083040 said:


> So what useful info am I supposed to take away from this thread? With an Allison trans, Tow/haul is good for longer pushes and roads; but causes excessive transfer case wear when doing driveways. Right? When B&B speaks we listen


If I have read his posts in this, and other threads, correctly, it sounds like it will be more wear and tear on the torque converter, it's lockup clutch, and lockup solenoid. Shouldn't effect the transfer case either way. And, only on a truck with an Allison transmission that is plowing in smaller areas. Sounds like if you are plowing a road you would be good to go with T/H.


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

whoops- yes, got it now! I was thinkin to myself that's a lot of locking up for a transfer case. DUHHH, and i thought other people had dumb posts


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

I really think plowsite needs a "like" button such as the one on facebook.. I just found myself wanting to "like" B&B's response to this!!


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

I see what he's saying, I've plowed lots where the truck will shift into 2nd right before i get to the pile. But yeah on the longer lots and roads, it would be fine in 2nd for awhile.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

purpleranger519;1083055 said:


> I really think plowsite needs a "like" button such as the one on facebook.. I just found myself wanting to "like" B&B's response to this!!


I agree, something like that would be good. There are a couple diesel sites that have a "thanks" button.


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## tac48 (Jun 22, 2010)

B&B;1082795 said:


> That only applies on the Allison's which was the subject trans at hand in that thread. The 4L60E, 4L80E, 6L80/90E's don't have the ability to apply the TC below 3rd gear so excessive TC wear by using T/H during slow or short run plowing isn't a problem.
> 
> So T/H can help marginally on all the others by reducing early upshifts at low speeds and short travel distances (referred to as shift busyness)...but so does running the shifter in the correct position for the job at hand.
> 
> T/H or no T/H is NOT a yes or no answer. Depends on which trans you're running and the type of work you're doing. It is not a replacement for driver skills. How did we all survive without T/H, ABS, auto headlamps, torque management/abuse management and rev limiters? Intelligence and skill.


Just wanted to say this is an excellent response to the tow/haul question. I've been a GM Dealer tranny tech for past 11 years and could not have summed it up any better ! I'm newer to this site and I don't know B & B, but after reading his posts- I'm impressed. Thank you B & B for sharing your knowledge.


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## BlizzardBeater (Aug 29, 2010)

Wow, i've been reading this post since the beginning, now I just gotta chime in. Thanks for beating me BB on the differences in trannies in the different posts. Heres the deal, no one answer for this will work for everybody. Almost every answer here can be right. If your plowing large parking lots with two inches of fluffy snow, put her in drive and go. If you plowing straight short trips with 14 inches of wet stuff, why not use your 4lo and take advantage of your gear reduction, thats why its been there for years and years right? If your doin short residental drives, feel free to use your tow/haul and save yourself a shift every push or lugging your motor, obviously this is a bad idea with your diesel and allison tranny but you've got the power to push in drive anyway. Basically the idea is, if you find yourself 3/4 of the way into the footfeed pushing your truck to where you know its not right, use all the options you paid for in your $40,000 truck. Everybody that actually plows on this site should know the signs of abuse while plowing, high tranny temps, god forbid the smell of tranny motor and fluids getting hot, really having to push the truck beyond what it was designed to do, motor getting hot, and so on. Your brain will tell you whats right and not so right, use it lol. I've personally used 4lo, 4hi, drive, tow/haul, and 2hi plowing. It just depended on the location and conditions. Let the truck do the work, even a half ton will make a hell of a push without overworking any of the components if using the right combination. Sorry for the rant guys, just wanted to add my thoughts and experience on the subject.


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## CT-TILEMAN (Jan 3, 2009)

cubanb343;1083040 said:


> So what useful info am I supposed to take away from this thread? With an Allison trans, Tow/haul is good for longer pushes and roads; but causes excessive transfer case wear when doing driveways. Right? When B&B speaks we listen


I don't believe half the posts in this thread, T/H in an Allison equipped truck will lock up the TC in 2nd gear, the Duramax has more than enough torque and with the gearing in the Allison to push snow and like others said there is always 4-LO if it is heavy and wet. The reason GM and Allison put a T/H setting was to reduce heat generated by the TC when unlocked and your working the truck either towing or plowing. Most of the heat is from the TC slipping and not being locked. The regular gas trucks with the 6.0 do not have the same type of HD transmission as the Allison.



JDiepstra;1083050 said:


> If I have read his posts in this, and other threads, correctly, it sounds like it will be more wear and tear on the torque converter, it's lockup clutch, and lockup solenoid. Shouldn't effect the transfer case either way. And, only on a truck with an Allison transmission that is plowing in smaller areas. Sounds like if you are plowing a road you would be good to go with T/H.


The wear and tear on the TC is more IMHO when it is unlocked then when it is locked as you have no slip when locked. The newer trucks like my 2007 have a manual selector for upshifts and downshifts as well so you can dial in the gear you want and keep it in that gear.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

CT-TILEMAN;1084421 said:


> ....
> The wear and tear on the TC is more IMHO when it is unlocked then when it is locked ....


There is zero wear on an unlocked torque converter.

Heat, yes.

Wear, no.


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## BlizzardBeater (Aug 29, 2010)

The wear on the TC on an allison tranny in tow/haul while plowing comes from the constant lock and unlock of the TC between the first and second shift. Obviously this isnt a big deal if you never shift into second like on very short runs, and only applies to the allison. 4L60E and 4L80E only have the ability to lock the TC in third and above.


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## CT-TILEMAN (Jan 3, 2009)

2COR517;1084423 said:


> There is zero wear on an unlocked torque converter.
> 
> Heat, yes.
> 
> Wear, no.


How is that ??? Unless your theory is that when the TC clutch applies it wears the clutch a little bit, but since it is pulse width modulated apply on a % and happens quickly enough I don't see it wearing out.

I would think the extra heat from it running unlocked would be more damaging that running it with it locked.

Just my $0.02


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Why would there be wear? Just fluid flowing through steel vanes.

I've never heard of a non-lockup converter "wearing out". You?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

CT-TILEMAN;1084751 said:


> How is that ??? Unless your theory is that when the TC clutch applies it wears the clutch a little bit, but since it is pulse width modulated apply on a % and happens quickly enough I don't see it wearing out.


 Apply and release it a couple thousand extra times unnecessarily on a plow truck every season and you'll find the clutch wear. 



CT-TILEMAN;1084751 said:


> I would think the extra heat from it running unlocked would be more damaging that running it with it locked.


How much heat the TC generates is solely dependent on the operator. Force it to build excessive heat with improper use and it will. Run it correctly and the cooler will have no trouble keeping up. T/H is not a replacement or crutch for a poorly educated operator.


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## CT-TILEMAN (Jan 3, 2009)

B&B;1084768 said:


> Apply and release it a couple thousand extra times unnecessarily on a plow truck every season and you'll find the clutch wear.
> 
> How much heat the TC generates is solely dependent on the operator. Force it to build excessive heat with improper use and it will. Run it correctly and the cooler will have no trouble keeping up. T/H is not a replacement or crutch for a poorly educated operator.


I am hardly a poorly educated operator, 25 years of plowing here so your not talking to a rookie.

Do you have a Allison equipped truck ? Or do you have a gasser without an Allison. The Allison is not your normal HD transmission, it is a clutch to clutch apply/release and does not have bands, drums or anything else in common with most HD transmissions.
By using T/H you apply the clutch, but you also greatly reduce the heat build up which is all generated by a slipping TC clutch.

I have three seasons on my 2007 Duramax/Allison and our other plow truck is a 2001 Duramax/Allison and it has 140K on the tranny with 8 years of plowing in T/H with no ill effects.

I am done arguing with you, you are free to do what you want with your truck and I will do the same with mine.

Good Day,


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Ok well I'm keeping tow/ haul off for plowing and salting.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

CT-TILEMAN;1084910 said:


> I am hardly a poorly educated operator, 25 years of plowing here so your not talking to a rookie.


 It appears you confuse experience (or lack of experience) with under-education. Many out there that have been doing it for years but still don't know how to maximize the life of their equipment. Usually due to under-education or pure ignorance of the equipment their operating. While others have just enough knowledge to honestly believe they're doing the best they can to prolong it's life. Plowing snow doesn't make an Allison expert any more than operating a lawnmower makes a botanist. 


CT-TILEMAN;1084910 said:


> Do you have a Allison equipped truck ? Or do you have a gasser without an Allison. The Allison is not your normal HD transmission, it is a clutch to clutch apply/release and does not have bands, drums or anything else in common with most HD transmissions.


 Explaining to me (directly) the internals of an Allison, how they function and how they differ from other transmissions is like explaining to a fish how to swim. So you're not talking to an under-educated person either. 


CT-TILEMAN;1084910 said:


> By using T/H you apply the clutch, but you also greatly reduce the heat build up which is all generated by a slipping TC clutch.


This statement clearly shows your under-education of a torque converter function because you've confused the TC clutch with TC stall. The TC clutch can not slip when it's not applied (via using T/H) as a clutch of any type has to first be applied (or during it's applying/releasing state) to create slippage. So only when T/H is selected can and does it slip thus produce wear. And that's where not using T/H during short runs prolongs the life of the TC clutch. It can't wear if you're not applying/releasing it. 


CT-TILEMAN;1084910 said:


> I have three seasons on my 2007 Duramax/Allison and our other plow truck is a 2001 Duramax/Allison and it has 140K on the tranny with 8 years of plowing in T/H with no ill effects.


 Luckily when GM/Allison was prepping the Allison's for the then up and coming GMT800 platform they didn't do all their testing on only two trucks or all the Allison owner would have been a little unhappy.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the Allison design tech's at a GM/Allison training seminar when they were prepping technicians for the then new for many transmission in the GMT800 platform. I asked their theory specifically on the T/H functions and how it applied specifically to plowing snow (since being involved in both industries) and because many were already utilizing the T/H function on the previous 4L60 and 80E's with no ill affects. He said "have you seen the T/H button on our Allison equipped trucks yet?" I said yes. He said "does it say snow plowing on there?" Of course I stated "no". His reply was "there's your answer". Couldn't help but laugh. 


CT-TILEMAN;1084910 said:


> I am done arguing with you, you are free to do what you want with your truck and I will do the same with mine. Good Day,


Some people look at a discussion as an argument. While others with an open mind see it as a desire to learn thus educate themselves from those actually involved directly in the field or technology in question.

And using a comment of yours, "Allison's are not like other transmissions" used in plowing applications, excessive heat is seldom an issue due to their very very efficient torque converter (the most efficient one in the industry to date in fact) and have enough cooler flow (twice that of most transmissions in fact) to cool properly under most plowing conditions. They're also happy to run day in and day out at a higher normal operating temperature than most "other" transmissions. Even running the OEM Dex 3 or Dex 6 fluid they're more than adequate to run at 230*-240* all day long with no ill affects to either the trans itself or torque converter. Run Allison's own Transynd in them and excessive heat buildup becomes a moot discussion......or argument as your preferred terminology.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

:laughing:  :laughing:


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## CT-TILEMAN (Jan 3, 2009)

B&B;1085088 said:


> It appears you confuse experience (or lack of experience) with under-education. Many out there that have been doing it for years but still don't know how to maximize the life of their equipment. Usually due to under-education or pure ignorance of the equipment their operating. While others have just enough knowledge to honestly believe they're doing the best they can to prolong it's life. Plowing snow doesn't make an Allison expert any more than operating a lawnmower makes a botanist.
> Explaining to me (directly) the internals of an Allison, how they function and how they differ from other transmissions is like explaining to a fish how to swim. So you're not talking to an under-educated person either.
> This statement clearly shows your under-education of a torque converter function because you've confused the TC clutch with TC stall. The TC clutch can not slip when it's not applied (via using T/H) as a clutch of any type has to first be applied (or during it's applying/releasing state) to create slippage. So only when T/H is selected can and does it slip thus produce wear. And that's where not using T/H during short runs prolongs the life of the TC clutch. It can't wear if you're not applying/releasing it.
> Luckily when GM/Allison was prepping the Allison's for the then up and coming GMT800 platform they didn't do all their testing on only two trucks or all the Allison owner would have been a little unhappy.
> ...


Glad to see your an expert..................I do understand stall speed, and the function of a TC in an unlocked condition,TQ multiplication, fluid coupling.....etc. The TC locks and unlocks just fine in non-T/H as well, the 5-speed Allison it is setup from the factory to not apply the TC in 1st-2nd-3rd gear in non T/H, it does not apply the TC in the the three lower gears to take advantage of TQ multiplication at the expense of some extra heat, it does however lock the TC in 4th and 5th gear. It also knocks pressure down in 5th with the TC applied to reduce heat.

The 6-speeds work very similar except they have the tap shifter, Allison actually added the Tap Shifter so you can better control the gears you want to prevent the shift business that was a problem in the 2001 and 2002 Allison's that required GM/Allison to add the OD-lockout feature in 2003 as standard equipment, the 2001 and 2002 can be retrofitted to take advantage of that feature by adding a simple momentary on switch to the following pins in the C1 connector in locations 12 and 28 and if you want a LED to light up you can add one at pin C1-20.

Transynd may or may not be the best fluid to run in an Allison, depending on your use of the vehicle. I ran Transynd for a while and did not notice much of a temperature drop, I did notice a bigger drop when I added a replacement aftermarket cooler to my 2001, you will also notice that in the 6 speed trucks vs the 5 speed trucks they went to a longer in width but shorter in height cooler so that the longer tubes of the cooler would allow the fluid to shed heat better before getting to the tank ends, did your engineer tell you that is why they changed it ?

Just and FYI for you, I have had more than a few of these apart and built myself for High Performance use, they hold up great at 700 RWHP just fine they get a little pissy at 1000+ RWHP but will survive and not with transynd either, Allison even altered the 6-speed rotating assembly to take advantage of the aftermarket upgrades developed by Trans-Go in 2001 by eliminating the C2 balance piston in the C1/C2 rotating assembly by drilling two small holes and pressing in a steel cup with a very small orifice to bleed the pressure off.

If you are comfortable running one at 230-240 F and you don't think it will harm the transmission I would not take your advice with a grain of salt !

As far as efficient TQ converter, the stock on isn't tight enough for my needs, I actually replaced mine with a 1054 with a billet stator from Suncoast Converters, it is much better for my needs and couples more quickly then stock, in fact IMHO the stock one is too loose for my liking.

Ball is back in your court...........:laughing:


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

CT-TILEMAN;1085154 said:


> Transynd may or may not be the best fluid to run in an Allison, depending on your use of the vehicle. I ran Transynd for a while and did not notice much of a temperature drop, I did notice a bigger drop when I added a replacement aftermarket cooler to my 2001, you will also notice that in the 6 speed trucks vs the 5 speed trucks they went to a longer in width but shorter in height cooler so that the longer tubes of the cooler would allow the fluid to shed heat better before getting to the tank ends, did your engineer tell you that is why they changed it ?
> 
> If you are comfortable running one at 230-240 F and you don't think it will harm the transmission I would not take your advice with a grain of salt !


CT,
What exactly made you think running a different fluid would make it run cooler? How would fluid make a difference ? The only thing that changes with different fluid is how well the fluid it self holds up to the heat.

Speaking of heat ? 240 is not really that hot, most plastics can take that kind of heat . most fluid can't but what makes you think it would be a problem for the hard parts ?


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

CT-TILEMAN;1085154 said:


> Glad to see your an expert..................I do understand stall speed, and the function of a TC in an unlocked condition,TQ multiplication, fluid coupling.....etc. The TC locks and unlocks just fine in non-T/H as well, the 5-speed Allison it is setup from the factory to not apply the TC in 1st-2nd-3rd gear in non T/H, it does not apply the TC in the the three lower gears to take advantage of TQ multiplication at the expense of some extra heat, it does however lock the TC in 4th and 5th gear. It also knocks pressure down in 5th with the TC applied to reduce heat.
> 
> The 6-speeds work very similar except they have the tap shifter, Allison actually added the Tap Shifter so you can better control the gears you want to prevent the shift business that was a problem in the 2001 and 2002 Allison's that required GM/Allison to add the OD-lockout feature in 2003 as standard equipment, the 2001 and 2002 can be retrofitted to take advantage of that feature by adding a simple momentary on switch to the following pins in the C1 connector in locations 12 and 28 and if you want a LED to light up you can add one at pin C1-20.
> 
> ...


I don't think you have been properly introduced to B&B....


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

This is funny :laugh


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

purpleranger519;1085262 said:


> I don't think you have been properly introduced to B&B....


Oh, I think he has.

His statement that locking/unlocking the TC doesn't produce any wear tells me all I need to know. I'll continue to take my advice from the trusted source.

And, of course,

Hee hee hee...


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

CT-TILEMAN;1085154 said:


> I do understand stall speed, and the function of a TC in an unlocked condition,TQ multiplication, fluid coupling.....etc. The TC locks and unlocks just fine in non-T/H as well, the 5-speed Allison it is setup from the factory to not apply the TC in 1st-2nd-3rd gear in non T/H, it does not apply the TC in the the three lower gears to take advantage of TQ multiplication (such as the extra low speed torque multiplication some need to push snow? Odd, wonder why you'd want to apply the TCC in 2nd via T/H and lose the advantage of said torque multiplication then. Which if you recall was your original "argument". by at the expense of some extra heat, (Which is very little, measure fluid temps out of the TC the next time your plowing with the T/H off, you'll be surprised) it does however lock the TC in 4th and 5th gear (not in 4th on all 1000's). It also knocks pressure down in 5th with the TC applied to reduce heat.(Who plows snow in 4th and 5th?) The 6-speeds work very similar except they have the tap shifter, Allison actually added the Tap Shifter so you can better control the gears you want to prevent the shift business that was a problem in the 2001 and 2002 Allison's that required GM/Allison to add the OD-lockout feature in 2003 as standard equipment, the 2001 and 2002 can be retrofitted to take advantage of that feature by adding a simple momentary on switch to the following pins in the C1 connector in locations 12 and 28 and if you want a LED to light up you can add one at pin C1-20. Yes O/D lockout used to be a common and popular upgrade when there were more '01-'02's running around. Haven't had to do one for a couple years now since most DIY'er can do it themselves.
> 
> Transynd may or may not be the best fluid to run in an Allison, depending on your use of the vehicle. I ran Transynd for a while and did not notice much of a temperature drop. My reference to the Transynd wasn't in regard as a means to lowering operating temps but in regards to it's ability to easily handle higher operating temps than that of either OEM specified Dex 3 or 6. Torque-Drive or Quatrasyn are also good choices for those that have trouble sourcing Transynd and wish to run something better than Dex 3 or 6.
> 
> ...


All this is old news so it's still fish food to me and will likely be above the heads of many here anyway so most of this is of little benefit to guys plowing snow, which of course would be the original discussion at hand so I'll offer my apologies. And I'll also say if anyone out there requires a SC kit and a 1054 converter to plow snow there's a good chance you're doing it wrong.


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

Your like a open well full of knowledge Mike, I'm always learning something new from you.


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## CT-TILEMAN (Jan 3, 2009)

B&B;1085306 said:


> All this is old news so it's still fish food to me and will likely be above the heads of many here anyway so most of this is of little benefit to guys plowing snow, which of course would be the original discussion at hand so I'll offer my apologies. And I'll also say if anyone out there requires a SC kit and a 1054 converter to plow snow there's a good chance you're doing it wrong.


I use a 1054 TC because I will overpower a looser TC and can't get the TQ to the rear wheels when racing my vehicle in the 1/4 mile, yes I race my plow truck and it will run 12.5's at 107 mph in the 1/4 mile. Been racing these trucks since 2004 so yes I would be doing it wrong if I needed a 1054 for plowing but it wasn't bought for plowing.

I only answered your response insinuating I was un-educated in how a TC works. I have been around these trucks since they were released, I know much more then most but don't feel the need to brag about my credentials or belittle someone to try an prove a point, but if you challenge someone be prepared to get answers you may not expect.

I will leave it at that...................... if I came off the wrong way it was not intended.

As far as TTS developing the kit, if memory serves me Steve Cole was providing the tuning at the time for Joe at PPE and it was a joint effort in CA with TTS, PPE, and Inglewood Transmissions. The history of what went on differs based on who you speak to and who you want to beleive. TTS in my opinion likes to try and take credit for much more than they deserve, now Steve Cole is a smart guy, but a little full of himself at times.



BigLou80;1085218 said:


> CT,
> What exactly made you think running a different fluid would make it run cooler? How would fluid make a difference ? The only thing that changes with different fluid is how well the fluid it self holds up to the heat.
> 
> Speaking of heat ? 240 is not really that hot, most plastics can take that kind of heat . most fluid can't but what makes you think it would be a problem for the hard parts ?


During testing it was found that certain clutch packs liked certain fluids, the Amsoil was found to be quite a good fluid but the clutches did not bite as hard as they did with proper DEX-III or Transynd, this was early on in the testing of the original Trans-Go kits developed with Suncoast Converters in FL and a lot of R&D was done in CA with Joe Konami at PPE with his white 2001 regular cab shop truck and Mike Lovrich at Inglewood Transmissions and a friend of mine in Baltimore MD who worked very closely with Joe Webb until he unfortunately passed away on a fishing trip. When Suncoast went with Alto Clutches in their Stage 3 kits and decided on Kolene Steel Plates the tests conducted found that under the higher HP that regular fluid was better than synthetic, not that synthetic was bad just for certain applications it was not needed and in fact could reduce friction apply due to the slippery fluid. Due to the modifications to the pump pressures and cutback valve in the transmission a properly built Allison can see pressures from 190-325 psi which is quite more than stock, pressure creates holding force and also creates heat. For those reasons I chose an oversized deep pan and a oversized cooler made my Setraub to cover my needs. I only see 180 F if I even see that in most circumstances. But I use my truck differently than most do on this site so my opinion on what is right for my use may differ from your use.

If you use your truck simple for plowing and it has stock clutches synthetic would be a fine choice if you like the added cost. I like to change my sump filter yearly, my spin-on every 5K miles and a total flush every fall just before plow season. Fluid temp is key to the life of any engine or transmission, that is why HD trucks have not only water cooled coolers but also accessory air coolers and most likely they are oversized.

I don't like heat in fluid and any builder of transmissions will tell you heat is a killer for any transmission.

Hope that helps you out in my thinking.


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## CT-TILEMAN (Jan 3, 2009)

2COR517;1085291 said:


> Oh, I think he has.
> 
> His statement that locking/unlocking the TC doesn't produce any wear tells me all I need to know. I'll continue to take my advice from the trusted source.
> 
> ...


Where did I say it did not produce wear ?

I think the wear is overstated, as I said during normal driving the Allison is designed to lock the TC in 4th or 5th, I don't see how it hurts to lock it once in second gear if you are using T/H plowing.

If it was so bad to do then Allison could have programmed the TCM to disallow the lockup feature in all lower gears in T/H and 4X4, but they did not.

Just because on Allison engineer decides to make a statement in conversation that T/H has no icon of a plow on the shift handle does not make that one person right or wrong, it just makes them narrow minded.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

CT-TILEMAN;1085329 said:


> I use a 1054 TC because I will overpower a looser TC and can't get the TQ to the rear wheels when racing my vehicle in the 1/4 mile, yes I race my plow truck and it will run 12.5's at 107 mph in the 1/4 mile. Been racing these trucks since 2004 so yes I would be doing it wrong if I needed a 1054 for plowing but it wasn't bought for plowing.


 Next time run a little softer converter and make adjustments on the tune side to keep it from pushing through the brakes. Doing so instead of running a tighter converter provides versatility and a nice amount of adjustability whether you're drag racing or sled pulling, or better yet both. Takes some effort to find the sweet spot but once you do you'll be rewarded with a couple hundredths reduction in your 60 ft's. Tends to make the truck more consistent as well. Works best with a Co-Pilot or AlliLocker so it will hold all the way through the traps. Not many do it but I'll assume it's because they don't know it works or perhaps it's still a secret yet.



CT-TILEMAN;1085329 said:


> I only answered your response insinuating I was un-educated in how a TC works. I have been around these trucks since they were released, I know much more then most but don't feel the need to brag about my credentials or belittle someone to try an prove a point, but if you challenge someone be prepared to get answers you may not expect.


 Ditto. We're not all just snow jockeys around here.



CT-TILEMAN;1085329 said:


> Steve Cole is a smart guy, but a little full of himself at times.


 Steve used to be a real hoot.



CT-TILEMAN;1085329 said:


> Fluid temp is key to the life of any engine or transmission, that is why HD trucks have not only water cooled coolers but also accessory air coolers and most likely they are oversized.


 I'll assist you with that one and positivity clarify that yes they are. All the cooler flow in the world does little good if the coolers are too small to begin with.



CT-TILEMAN;1085329 said:


> I think the wear is overstated, as I said during normal driving the Allison is designed to lock the TC in 4th or 5th, I don't see how it hurts to lock it once in second gear if you are using T/H plowing.


 There's where you miss the point. During plowing operations you're not applying it only ONCE, you're needlessly applying it every time it upshifts from 1st. Go 60 ft, slow down, TC releases and drops to 1st. Reverse direction, stop, start back out in 1st, then a 2nd upshft, TC applies, go 60 ft and repeat the process over again thus adding a few thousand unneeded TC cycle's. And don't forget, we're losing our torque multiplication once it's applied in 2nd too.



CT-TILEMAN;1085329 said:


> If it was so bad to do then Allison could have programmed the TCM to disallow the lockup feature in all lower gears in T/H and 4X4, but they did not. Just because on Allison engineer decides to make a statement in conversation that T/H has no icon of a plow on the shift handle does not make that one person right or wrong, it just makes them narrow minded. Just because on Allison engineer decides to make a statement in conversation that T/H has no icon of a plow on the shift handle does not make that one person right or wrong, it just makes them narrow minded


 Snowplowing makes up a small percentage of the overall vocations they're used for. They do their best to cover as many bases as possible but covering them all would be impossible. Haven't seen one yet that included a button on the shifter specifically labeled "Drag race/Sled Pull" either. Which we all know happens but makes up only a small percentage of the usage. But yet they didn't add it? Appears they're still relying on at least some knowledge from the operator. Unless they're too narrow to comprehend that.

Wonder why they don't specifically state to use T/H for plowing conditions yet they do (obviously) for towing and/or hauling once 75% of the trucks GVWR is reached? Because it's two different conditions is why. The TC isn't being constantly applied and released when you're flying down the highway with a big load on like it is while you're running T/H and your up/down shifting 2nd gear every 20 seconds for hours on end. If you can not or refuse to understand that then we wouldn't be the narrow minded ones.



CT-TILEMAN;1085329 said:


> I will leave it at that... if I came off the wrong way it was not intended. Hope that helps you out in my thinking.


Wrong? Perhaps. Since knowledge and/or a respected reputation can not be read via a keyboard until enough have witness your work. That's where a little background evidence is most helpful during a thrown in post in the middle of a thread.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

CT-TILEMAN;1085331 said:


> Where did I say it did not produce wear ?


Follow along if you can......

You said this.



CT-TILEMAN;1084421 said:


> ....
> The *wear and tear on the TC is more IMHO when it is unlocked *then when it is locked as you have no slip when locked. The newer trucks like my 2007 have a manual selector for upshifts and downshifts as well so you can dial in the gear you want and keep it in that gear.



BTW, my '81 also has a manual selector to keep it in certain gears. 
Two of them, actually. I would have figured an expert like you would know that functionality has been available for decades.


To which I responded... 


2COR517;1084423 said:


> There is zero wear on an unlocked torque converter.
> 
> Heat, yes.
> 
> Wear, no.


Then you said...



CT-TILEMAN;1084751 said:


> How is that ??? Unless your theory is that when the TC clutch applies it wears the clutch a little bit, but since it is pulse width modulated apply on a % and* happens quickly enough I don't see it wearing out.*...


Damning evidence, eh? Just because it's fast, doesn't mean there isn't wear.

And why does the application method matter? Maybe you could show off a little more and explain "pulse width modulated" for the less knowledgeable. But be careful, it may further cement the opinion some of us already have about you.

Anyhow, continuing this little discussion, I asked....



2COR517;1084754 said:


> Why would there be wear? Just fluid flowing through steel vanes.
> 
> I've never heard of a non-lockup converter "wearing out". You?


You never responded to this direct question, so I presume the answer is no.



CT-TILEMAN;1085331 said:


> ..Just because on Allison engineer decides to make a statement in conversation that T/H has no icon of a plow on the shift handle does not make that one person right or wrong, it just makes them narrow minded.


Interesting comment. Or should I say "Pot...meet..Kettle"



CT-TILEMAN;1084910 said:


> I am hardly a poorly educated operator, 25 years of plowing here so your not talking to a rookie.


Experience does not necessarily indicate education, or even good operator skill. I think that's why some drivers can destroy the best set of brakes in a few months, others get years under the same operating/traffic conditions. Another good example in the snowplowing sector would be the guy that spins his tires every time he goes into the pile.

And you said this a while ago...



CT-TILEMAN;1084910 said:


> I am done arguing with you, you are free to do what you want with your truck and I will do the same with mine.
> 
> Good Day,


Hmmmm........

I notice you run a Fisher, so I gotta ask. It was once stated that trip edges save transmissions. Can you speculate on that?


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

Great thread guys!!!


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## CT-TILEMAN (Jan 3, 2009)

To answer your questions 2COR517:

Fluid coupling allows TQ multiplication as I stated earlier, it also creates more heat, heat creates wear and tear on the transmission. Most of the heat generated in a transmission is created by the slip in the TC.

As far as your '81, I assume that is pre OD and you have a three speed auto, does it even have a lock-up TC ? I am guessing it does not. Your transmission does not function the way an Allison 1000 does, it does not have 5 or 6 gears, it does not have multiple calibrations for T/H, Normal, 4-Hi, 4-Lo so we are not talking apples to apples. As far as the tap shifter, it allows the operator to select a gear with a momentary on rocker type switch once you manually drop the gear selector into the "M" setting. This was done to aid in towing and to allow the driver to hold a gear longer or drop down a gear without having to force the downshift by applying additional throttle to get the down shift. I assume it was done with a rocker switch to allow a safer and easier way to upshift and or downshift than pulling a lever into 5 or 6 positions, this makes technology that is available in any auto trans with a manual valve body available in an electronically controlled transmission with adaptive learning. 

Sorry if you think I am showing off, to answer your question on pulse width modulation it is done by applying the current in an on/off/on/off cycle instead of applying constant power to the TC lockup circuit for fine tuning the apply of the TC or the ramp on rate. Allison designed the transmission to allow varying apply rates of the TC clutch to soften the apply and take some of the harshness out of it. This allows the transmission to be more user friendly and also allows the engineer to apply the TC faster if necessary under certain conditions by programming the apply rate faster. If you were to use a TECH II or EFI-LIVE and log the apply of the TQ Converter you would see an apply % of less than 100%.

Non lockup converters wear out just like everything else in a car or truck, they just wear out slowly over time so you never really notice them going until they eventually die.
Again JMHO.

As far as my plowing techniques, I don't abuse my equipment, I don't like to break my trucks or my plows by banging curbs or spinning tires.

As far as trip edges saving transmissions, I think they save you the operator from banging your head off the steering wheel if you plow carelessly, or hit an obstruction that is raised that you are unaware of. Could it save a transmission, I guess it could save anything depending on what you want to tell yourself.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

CT-TILEMAN;1085538 said:


> To answer your questions 2COR517:
> 
> ... Most of the heat generated in a transmission is created by the slip in the TC.
> 
> ...


I can clearly recall two separate occasions banging my head off the steering wheel when running my Fisher XV. Actually once was the steering wheel, one was the door glass.

Trip edge must have been stuck or something.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

So as a slightly experienced, none transophile, with minimal mechanical knowledge I think I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's not good to run your truck in T/H when plowing short pushes unless you spend a lot of money on aftermarket drivetrain components, but if you want to save a bunch of money on performance trans parts changing to the allision produced synthetic fluid will help your trans live longer?

Sheeeet, and I thought locking it in low for short heavy pushes, coming to a full stop before shifting gears, and keeping the transmission from "hunting" for gears was enough. I don't know how I got though the last 40 years of plowing snow with-out a souped up Allison. 

A couple questions:

Does this apply to my T4/T5 with PTO drive?

Can I put one in my Dodge?


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## CT-TILEMAN (Jan 3, 2009)

B&B;1085481 said:


> Next time run a little softer converter and make adjustments on the tune side to keep it from pushing through the brakes. Doing so instead of running a tighter converter provides versatility and a nice amount of adjustability whether you're drag racing or sled pulling, or better yet both. Takes some effort to find the sweet spot but once you do you'll be rewarded with a couple hundredths reduction in your 60 ft's. Tends to make the truck more consistent as well. Works best with a Co-Pilot or AlliLocker so it will hold all the way through the traps. Not many do it but I'll assume it's because they don't know it works or perhaps it's still a secret yet.
> 
> *In my 2002 D/A truck I ran a SC-1050 back in 2004 that was the only TC offered in the ST-III kits, in 2006 on the advice of Mike Lovrich my good friend in CA he had Terry at Precision set me up with the new at the time ML-TC from Terry, it is a little tighter than the 1056 but not quite as aggressive as the 1057 so after having those two in a non-VVT and now the 1054 in my 2007 I like the tighter TC especially with the VVT turbo on the LBZ. My truck at a 10 psi/2000 rpm launch will cut consistent 1.69-1.72/60 ft times on street tires and will run within 2-3/100th of my dial in everytime. I have a Co-Pilot in my 2002 LB7 which is not a plow truck.
> Unfortunately I have not heard many people having success with the Fleece Allylocker although BT Dieselworks has a Lock-Up controller that works very, very well and you can also lock/unlock the TC at will, the sled pullers love it. *
> ...


*Did not want to step on the resident experts toes, but you never know who sits on the other end of keyboard.......

If this is your forum and you are the resident expert around here I can understand skepticism from long time members when a new guy shows up, I read more than post on most forums I am a member of, I have some forums I have never even posted on, again I don't brag, it isn't my style.

*


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Wow you guys get a room!


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

time to move on and put this one to rest

thanks


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