# Tractor/inverted radius of service, costs, other financial questions



## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

*Anyone using tractors with inverted blowers for residential work in a suburban setting?

If anybody reading is highly experienced with tractor/blower service, I'd be very grateful if you'd be willing to book me for a paid consulting call. *

Basically I am shooting for a service area that includes 7+ different suburb neighborhoods, within a grid about 2 miles square.
I'm about to hit the door to door marketing, eddm, etc, but I basically need to commit now and grab a tractor/blower setup. Or two of them. I am trying to plan it well, but there are many unknowns for me...

- How wide an area do you typically allow one tractor to service? Population density is medium here. About 300-500 homes per square mile, maybe more. 
- How far from your work area do you store tractors?
- How much do you offer to pay good tractor operators? Do you offer a guaranteed monthly minimum or end of season bonus?
- Do you send a navigator/spotter in a truck to follow each tractor while it's out?
- How many miles do you get away with driving a tractor on larger roads when it's snowing? 
- What's the backup plan when bolts break and a blower ends up on the ground, or if something else about the blower or tractor goes wrong? Do you fall back on plow trucks, blowers and shovels, another tractor?
- How many gallons of fuel per hour does a utility tractor use when running a blower? (I mean like an 80-100hp tractor)
- What percentage of your total equipment cost do you work into pricing? If a tractor is going out 13-15x per year, clearing 20-30 drives per hour on the low end, for a 5+ hour shift, it's operated for about 75-90 hours per year and it is covering about 150 properties. I think that is conservative and could be higher if route density is high. If that tractor sets us back $40-50k to get the full blower rig, how much of that tractor's revenue should we plan is getting paid down each year? (or banked for future replacement)?

My gut tells me to plan to cover equipment cost within 6-8 years, and to keep operator pay to less than about 20-25% of the route's revenue.
Please let me know what I'm missing or if I'm way off on any of this stuff.
I know I have blind spots like crazy and I would appreciate anyone who can tell me when I'm wrong.

Thanks in advance for any help!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/switching-to-blowing-service.110685/


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

^^^^^^


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mark Oomkes said:


> https://www.plowsite.com/threads/switching-to-blowing-service.110685/


Yes thanks but I have read through dozens of pages of that thread. It is too disjointed to be useful. Also the financial details are missing.

I'm hoping to avoid reading through all 150+ pages (this could take me several days at this time of year when spare time is low) merely to arrive right back where I am now.

I am hoping to find specific help with costs and operations-related tractor/blower questions. If people are hesitant to post financial and operations strategy here, I am glad to pay for a couple of useful 30 minute consulting calls.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jato said:


> - How wide an area do you typically allow one tractor to service? Population density is medium here. About 300-500 homes per square mile, maybe more.


Depends on how tight of a route you can develop.



jato said:


> - How far from your work area do you store tractors?


At one point, a 1/4 mile. Now about 3 miles.



jato said:


> - How much do you offer to pay good tractor operators? Do you offer a guaranteed monthly minimum or end of season bonus?


Depends...just like pricing depends on your region. Good luck finding experienced tractor operators. No, just pay them well. Not saying I wouldn't consider it.



jato said:


> - Do you send a navigator/spotter in a truck to follow each tractor while it's out?


Why?



jato said:


> - How many miles do you get away with driving a tractor on larger roads when it's snowing?


In our area, there's close to as many tractors and loaders on the road during a snowstorm as trucks. But we live in the less restrictive part of Michigan so cops could care less.



jato said:


> - What's the backup plan when bolts break and a blower ends up on the ground, or if something else about the blower or tractor goes wrong? Do you fall back on plow trucks, blowers and shovels, another tractor?


Spare bolts. Spare pins. Spare blower and a spare tractor and blower. Before we had a spare tractor, we did use trucks a couple times, but they are more reliable than trucks.



jato said:


> - How many gallons of fuel per hour does a utility tractor use when running a blower? (I mean like an 80-100hp tractor)


Good question. About a tankful depending on length of route and snow conditions. Wet, dry, 8" vs 1.5". And honestly, I don't even know how many gallons the tank holds.



jato said:


> - What percentage of your total equipment cost do you work into pricing? If a tractor is going out 13-15x per year, clearing 20-30 drives per hour on the low end, for a 5+ hour shift, it's operated for about 75-90 hours per year and it is covering about 150 properties. I think that is conservative and could be higher if route density is high. If that tractor sets us back $40-50k to get the full blower rig, how much of that tractor's revenue should we plan is getting paid down each year? (or banked for future replacement)?


Again, this is different based on region and snowfall amounts and how the company is structured, i.e overhead.

We go out more than 13-15x usually. We used to have routes that were around 7 hours and were too long. Until last year, we dropped an entire route because it was too long and we picked up minimal year round work for those customers. Routes dropped to about 4 hours and it was the least stressful year for residentials I've had since we started. Due to multi-year contracts, I was not able to raise prices across the board to cover the lower number of drives, but we still made money.

You're looking for specific answers but there are only guidelines because every situation is different.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Depends on how tight of a route you can develop.
> 
> At one point, a 1/4 mile. Now about 3 miles.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! Guidelines help a lot as a starting point.
I understand the best answers for my situation are going to be different from other areas and other companies.
I like the idea of having 4 hours of work for a route. Less stress is good. Also leaves the option to take on same-day calls or mid-season adds at higher rates.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

jato said:


> If a tractor is going out 13-15x per year, clearing 20-30 drives per hour on the low end, for a 5+ hour shift, it's operated for about 75-90 hours per year and it is covering about 150 properties.
> 
> My gut tells me to plan to cover equipment cost within 6-8 years, and to keep operator pay to less than about 20-25% of the route's revenue.
> Please let me know what I'm missing or if I'm way off on any of this stuff.
> I know I have blind spots like crazy and I would appreciate anyone who can tell me when I'm wrong.


Your hypothetical route has 150 drives cleared in 5+hrs and your operator is paid 20% of that? Or 25%? I assume you will be billing as a seasonal flat rate but lets say those drives are $20/time (on the very low end of pricing I assume for your area) The route would be $3,000 per event and your operator will pull in $600-$750 each run? He would be making up to $150/hr. So unless he is bringing his own tractor to work I would suggest adjusting that figure.

Also if youre looking for a tractor/blower in the $40-50k range you may not find anything up to the task of a 150 drive route unless its a used hydrostatic. After a dismal winter of 20/21 you might find a good deal though.

Even thought the "switching to blowing service" thread is long I suggest giving it a thorough read and keep a notebook handy. There is some really good info buried in there especially from Paul Vanderzon.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Landgreen said:


> Your hypothetical route has 150 drives cleared in 5+hrs and your operator is paid 20% of that? Or 25%? I assume you will be billing as a seasonal flat rate but lets say those drives are $20/time (on the very low end of pricing I assume for your area) The route would be $3,000 per event and your operator will pull in $600-$750 each run? He would be making up to $150/hr. So unless he is bringing his own tractor to work I would suggest adjusting that figure.
> 
> Also if youre looking for a tractor/blower in the $40-50k range you may not find anything up to the task of a 150 drive route unless its a used hydrostatic. After a dismal winter of 20/21 you might find a good deal though.
> 
> Even thought the "switching to blowing service" thread is long I suggest giving it a thorough read and keep a notebook handy. There is some really good info buried in there especially from Paul Vanderzon.


Yup I'm reading thru it now. A few pages a day.
Pay just needs to stay below that 25% as I see it. If one tractor setup brings in 50k/year, and is used only about 90hours, there is no problem paying someone $700-1000 each time he goes out for 5-8hours. This is so much more profitable than lawn mowing, that part is easy. It is also far less competitive than mowing because we get only moderate snow here. BUT the complications of buying and storing heavier equipment make this a new challenge for me.

Except for cab upgrades and add ons, I see new tractors from 75+HP seem to be around 25-40k. It's a huge range. Maybe 50k. Then add 10k for a nice inverted.

The equipment advice is the most important advice, picking a tractor-blower setup that will be functional and reliable. Most of the "switching to blowing service" thread keeps circling back around to equipment.

Toolcats, and things like Kubota F series seem to move snow fine. Right now I'm considering buying one or two Ventrac tractors w blowers, and making less money for the next two years. But I know those would be at least 3 to 5 times slower on each driveway.

Obviously, the most efficient long-term plan for driveways is to use powerful tractors and wide, powerful blowers. Even if snow is light, that is by far the most efficient way to clear a driveway. Buy once cry once.

So if someone out there has 5-10 of the same 85+HP tractor and blower rig because it works great for this, and it can do an 8-car residential drive in about 1 minute or less would you be willing to tell me exactly what setup you're using? Model numbers etc.

Basically I'm saying, what is the fender Stratocaster of the tractor/blower world?

Equipment. Specific model numbers. That's really the question. I can do most of the other stuff like sell the service. Where I'm at, homeowners hate plow trucks so much, blower service sells itself.
Thank you!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I know others disagree, but I would not go under 100 HP. 

Normand Hybrid. Wish I had a 100" on it, but I don't. 

So right now, it's a Deere 5100e with a Normand 92" Hybrid.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I know others disagree, but I would not go under 100 HP.
> 
> Normand Hybrid. Wish I had a 100" on it, but I don't.
> 
> So right now, it's a Deere 5100e with a Normand 92" Hybrid.



Model: N92-280HINV. ?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Model: N92-280HINV. ?


SKW


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> SKW


100"
N100-310HYB


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SKW


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> jato said:
> 
> 
> > Equipment. Specific model numbers. That's really the question. I can do most of the other stuff like sell the service. Where I'm at, homeowners hate plow trucks so much, blower service sells itself.
> ...


 The op asked for model #'s


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

jato said:


> Equipment. Specific model numbers. That's really the question. I can do most of the other stuff like sell the service. Where I'm at, homeowners hate plow trucks so much, blower service sells itself.
> Thank you!





Mark Oomkes said:


> SKW


Op asked for model#'s


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> The op asked for model #'s


K



Hydromaster said:


> Op asked for model#'s


Kk


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

W


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Arent ventracs about $40k? If you bought two then youre already in the price range of a 100hp tractor with blower and snow tires. And the tractor will do far more work than those two ventracs on a driveway route, only one operator needed and no need to trailer it.

I watched a toolcat blow a drive while I plowed same sized one across street. There was about 6" of fluff. I started plowing after him and finished well before him. Wasnt impressed by it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'd shoot myself before I used a Toolcat for blowing drives.

Toolcats in general are too expensive to operate for snow and less productive than a skidsteer.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'd shoot myself before I used a Toolcat for blowing drives.
> 
> Toolcats in general are too expensive to operate for snow and less productive than a skidsteer.


I cant speak for toolcats blowing drives but ours has been flawless in plowing small commercial lots. Where they lack in maneuverability they make up for in road speed and being able to carry a sidewalk guy.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

m_ice said:


> I cant speak for toolcats blowing drives but ours has been flawless in plowing small commercial lots. Where they lack in maneuverability they make up for in road speed and being able to carry a sidewalk guy.


K


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

m_ice said:


> I cant speak for toolcats blowing drives but ours has been flawless in plowing small commercial lots. Where they lack in maneuverability they make up for in road speed and being able to carry a sidewalk guy.


Like I mentioned one early a.m. I think to you last year... Rather impressed with the toolcat and what it could do with bald R4's and no weight in the bed...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

m_ice said:


> I cant speak for toolcats blowing drives but ours has been flawless in plowing small commercial lots. Where they lack in maneuverability they make up for in road speed and being able to carry a sidewalk guy.


I'm not saying they don't work, but once they start getting rusty the cost to keep them on the road is astronomical.

I loved ours, just couldn't justify operational costs. And using it at just one site with minimal travel, the skidsteer is more productive.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm not saying they don't work, but once they start getting rusty the cost to keep them on the road is astronomical.
> 
> I loved ours, just couldn't justify operational costs. And using it at just one site with minimal travel, the skidsteer is more productive.


As soon as ours started surface rusting we POR-15 it. 3 seasons with no additional rust so far. I should have did it sooner. 
Sidebar...we use ours in the summer once per week so it's cost effective for us.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm not saying they don't work, but once they start getting rusty the cost to keep them on the road is astronomical.
> 
> I loved ours, just couldn't justify operational costs. And using it at just one site with minimal travel, the skidsteer is more productive.


I'm going to guess that the creature comforts in the cab have improved since I was in one 20 years ago?
The seat wasn't much better than a folding chair. I feel sorry for anyone who had to drive that for 5-6 hours straight.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> Op asked for model#'s


Oops maybe I should have written series numbers.


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