# Starting Up



## Watson's Plowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Hi all,
I am starting up a plowing business in Rual Vermont. I am looking for some pointers on what/how to charge customers. Looking at residential and Comercial bids. I have a 16 Gmc 2500hd with a new Fisher XV2. Also any pointers on a simple contract would be appreciated too.
Thanks


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Watson's Plowing said:


> Hi all,
> I am starting up a plowing business in Rual Vermont. I am looking for some pointers on what/how to charge customers. Looking at residential and Comercial bids. I have a 16 Gmc 2500hd with a new Fisher XV2. Also any pointer
> s on a simple contract would be appreciated
> too.
> Thanks


Is this a hobby or gonna be a primary source of income...

You will need insurance to start with...

As for what to charge...I can't help you much because I'm in Michigan and your in Vermont...

Sit down and figure out your costs..Insurance...Fuel..Wear and tear..Etc...What do you need to be making per hour to cover all that plus profit...That plow was upwards of $7k...That's a cost that needs to be covered...


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

And you're really kind of already late to be just setting this up. If I were you, I'd probably find a company to sub for this year and work on your own snow contracts come next Summer.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Check out the thread above yours. It's called primarily residential something something. We covered a lot of this just today. Check it out.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

for the contract you can join SIMA and use one of theirs as a starter and modify it to meet your needs. Then have your lawyer go over it or just have the lawyer make one up for you.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

What's your plowing experience?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ktfbgb said:


> Check out the thread above yours. It's called primarily residential something something. We covered a lot of this just today. Check it out.


X2..........................


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Join sima($$$) just for a sample contract 
One that you will need to have your lawyer read and modify anyway.(+$$$)
You'll be $$ ahead with one of your own, taken to your lawyer.

If you do a search, there have been a few contracts posted.


JMO but I dont think a guy just starting out doing drives and small lots needs sima.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

SnoFarmer said:


> Join sima($$$) just for a sample contract
> One that you will need to have your lawyer read and modify anyway.(+$$$)
> You'll be $$ ahead with one of your own, taken to your lawyer.
> 
> ...


Ya your probably right.

Just sitting here thinking about my city has a community college as well as the University. At the community college there is a small business center. They are there to help small businesses start up.

To the OP if you have a community college near by maybe check to see if there is something like that there.

Another option would be an online service like Rocket Lawyer. You choose your state and they generate a contract for you that covers the basics for your state. I'm guessing this would be a cheaper way to go.


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## Watson's Plowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the info. I have been plowing for about 10 years for our automotive shop parking lot as well as a few residential flag downs basically. I am not a beginner just looking to actually get serious this year and make some $$$$$ hopefully. This will be a second income I mean who gets up at 3am for a hobby?? I will have no problem getting bids as we have people call all the time looking for someone to plow. I realized after I posted this thread that it was all basically discussed in another thread. So thanks to everyone who replied.


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

Second income = hobby. Snow doesn't just come at 3am


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## Watson's Plowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Last I checked people were on here to help, give ideas, share opinions and tell stories. Not critisize every post that a newbie puts up. I asked a few questions which have been answered in another thread. I don't need the crap from people if you don't have a good idea or just want to critisize people then don't post. Thanks


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

No one has given you any crap, or criticized every post you made like you just stated. If you wish to get serious about this look at it more as risk management than just plowing on the side. You will need proper insurance and a legal document in order to do business properly. Last I checked no one here is obligated to coddle you. So far the advice you have been given is pretty solid. As a newbie you won't get solid advice being snarky or demanding.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Lighten up Francis. Your post raised a few flags. Pull up the big girl panties and take some of the advice given


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

God Lord, I did not see any negative threads, I will be straight up with you. You have to have thick skin and be able to put up with a little banter. A consulting firm would not be able to give you the advise you receive from this board. What kind of guys you think do this type of work? You got to be tough to play in the snow. Give the attitude a break. These guys will give you bad advise and being a noob you will not know the difference if you don't give that attitude a break.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I didn't see a single reply where someone gave you crap. Like the others said you have to be way more thick skinned than that to run any business. You as the professional have to always stay objective. Never react emotionally when dealing with customers or other professionals. Let's face it after you've been up for 24 hours with hardly a break and your still out there plowing taking care of your contractual obligations and then one of your customers calls *****ing that they feel like you did something wrong or whatever you have to maintain controll and stay objective. So if you think people on here are giving you crap which they weren't then how are you going to react in the above situation?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ktfbgb said:


> I didn't see a single reply where someone gave you crap. Like the others said you have to be way more thick skinned than that to run any business. You as the professional have to always stay objective. Never react emotionally when dealing with customers or other professionals. Let's face it after you've been up for 24 hours with hardly a break and your still out there plowing taking care of your contractual obligations and then one of your customers calls *****ing that they feel like you did something wrong or whatever you have to maintain controll and stay objective. So if you think people on here are giving you crap which they weren't then how are you going to react in the above situation?


24 Hrs is not that unusual, Specially removal, As far as clients go while complaining if your giving them quality service, do Not ever make the first move. Stay cool and wait for them to fire you. Or handle it if they got a legitimate gripe. There is no legitimate gripe if I'm on site. Some snow wizards you can not please, The guy after you will get the same treatment. Regardless maintain your cool.

I have been known to get rude to slow or non payers, I come by this honestly and usually can not be avoided.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

ok, let's get back on topic...I believe you are receiving some good advice. also, some tried and true, real life comments and helpful tips so don't take it as criticism, but rather, use it to assist you with your business

thanks and back to the discussion Thumbs Up


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Sawboy said:


> Second income = hobby. Snow doesn't just come at 3am


I thought your advice made sense. Appears the OP is a little touchy for some reason.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> ok, let's get back on topic...I believe you are receiving some good advice. also, some tried and true, real life comments and helpful tips so don't take it as criticism, but rather, use it to assist you with your business
> 
> thanks and back to the discussion Thumbs Up


:clapping:


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## SFCarmyvet (Sep 12, 2016)

It think you just took his tone wrong. I am also starting up as a second income. It is something to think about that snow does not just come at 3am. When we go into this as a second income it is important we treat the business the same as we would if it were our sole income in order to make it successful. Our contracts depend on us 24/7 even though we have another full time job. It does not mean we cannot be successful, we just need to have plans in place for those situations.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

It is harder and way more stressful to try and do it around another job. Unless you can seriously service 24/7, including holidays, family plans, and work it may not be the best fit for you. Before I quit to start my business I was out for 29 or so hours for a rare blizzard. I had to call in to work during the storm it's self then go into work an hour after I finally got off. I worked another 9 hours and then had to apply more ice melt that night. In 3 days I got maybe 7 hours of sleep. It was really tough. It can be done, but I would never recommend it to anyone.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Residential you may get away with a part time gig. Depends on your primary job. But commercial work will not want to hear it. But good luck.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I guess it depends on how flexible your job is. Otherwise you will need to pay someone else to service your accounts when you are gone at work. Like they say above it might fly with residential but you won't get a premium price. You may have to charge less for your customers to be flexible with you. But if they have an emergency either real or perceived they won't give a you know what if you are at work and will be leaving in 45 min to start the route or whatever the situation is. Remember that you are signing a contract for a service and if you don't fulfill the contractual obligations then you will run into big problems. Good luck!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

You have to almost look at snow removal as a emergency service. Fire trucks, ambulance etc. have to be able to have access. Most that want to play in the snow even starting out with driveways leads to small commercial etc. We have some fireman here that enjoy the earnings from snow. 

Keep in mind they have flexible hours and can switch time with other fireman. Most of the time they don't even work if there is not a fire. I'm not sure of there hours I think 2 days on 2 days off. They still have to sleep etc at the fire house when on duty. It can be done you will have to have your ducks in a row. This is a close nit group, They can get away with a lot others can't.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Snow removel is not an emergency service.

Next thing you know you'll be driving around with siren blaring and lights-a-flashing.

If the EMS needs access the rig will be fallowing a city,state, county plow vehicle.
You as a citizen need to stay out f there way.

The last thing we need is a bunch of plowjockeys thinking they are providing emergency services.


Fyi the only time we San have our Amber waring lights on is when actively engaged in snow plowing, not to or from an account.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Public safety is the reason we provide services to our clients. Calling it an emergency service is not inappropriate. Not to be confused or compared to first responders (police, fire)


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

It is inapropreate to call in an emergency service.

It is a service.

Public safety, reaching even for a salesman.


Snow is a common accourance.

And if/when a snow emergency is called for, they want you off of the streets too.
Even tho few of us listen.

Just becuse it snowed and you have a blinkey light on your Plowrig doesn't make you part of the EMS or in any way apart of emergency services.

It would be like owning a gun and running out to help the police in a shoot out.
You are not part of it and they want you to stay out of the way.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> Snow removel is not an emergency service.
> 
> Next thing you know you'll be driving around with siren blaring and lights-a-flashing.
> 
> ...


I was not implying that. I was simply trying to tell them you have to be available. We don't ride with amber lights on either unless you forget to turn them off. I have factory's with fire lanes with drifts sometime as high as the building and it could be a emergency situation. These lanes have to be accessible by law as well as the hydrants on site. The emergency doors in these lanes are supposed to be cleared for anyone is allowed in the building.

Yes we do not need plow guys thinking they are emergency vehicles. State county trucks do not go on private property in this state. And of course you give right of way to EMS etc.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Yes, you're providing a service by keeping the fire lanes and exits clear, this is called for by an ordances/law
It is not an " emergency" to do so.

Ps in some states in rural areas you can hire the county to plow your drive.

It is not an regency to plow a private parking lot.
A necessity yes, a emergency service, no. Just a service we provide when it snows.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Snow and ice control is considered an emergency operation by municipalities. It is one of the highest priorities for public works departments. 

Plenty of private contractors servicing public and private roads, airports, hospitals, helipads and medical facilities. 

So there is no such thing as a snow emergency in your mind?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Nope municipalities
Consider it a service, 
With designated "snow emergency"
Routs that that will try to keep 
Open only when a snow emergency
Is declared 

The only time it could be considered
Is if that are activately plowing a path
For EMS 


That the plow guy and truck
Lack the lights and siren 
Nor do the drivers have the training to be considered one


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

If it was A emergency service people would not bewaiting days to have the road or weeks for the alleys to be plowed 

There would be zero tolerance and all streets and everything would be heavily salted at all times , it's an emergency people.....


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I think some opinions are confused, there confusing essential services with emergency services.

know your roll...

Plow-trucks be it muni , county or state don't fit the discription of emergency vehicles
Nor are they equipped as such.

It's not an emergency if the airport closes down, it is not an emergency that the lot at Mickey Ds' isn't plowed....

Hint they don't send oot a Hilo in a snow emergency.
Fact as they loose all dept perception in a snow storm and the snow threw the rotors causes deadly static elicerticity and it is proababely to windy.

And how do you plow the hilepad that's on the roof?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

With a plastic shovel by hand. Helipads are not that big.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So do I or don't get to use my blinky lights anymore?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer said:


> And how do you plow the hilepad that's on the roof?


Rotors can clear it off pretty quickly.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

But they don't fly in the snow event.

Fyi befor MJD closes us down.

Notice the text at the bottom,

Yea a few " emergency shovel monkeys " can knock oot a 40'x40' minn pad in no time, lol


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

See as I'm on a roll and way way off topic.
I'll give it another kick before we need to take this to a new thread...

But still snow is not an emergency, it's just a natural event.

And if it is a snow emergency, then the snow emergency routs are to be cleared so EMS/fire/ police can act.
The clearing of snow is not an emergency act in of its self, but a service to the community,


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So do I or don't get to use my blinky lights anymore?


The ones on you're welding helmet? Well sure you can .

Are Ya still driving the fire rig?
Then your expected to.

On your plowtruck? Only if actively plowing snow ( as a essential service. )


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Ok so one you will never ever ever ever ever see a municipal plow truck plow a path in front of an emergency vehicle in my city. I'm retired from the fire dept and I never once saw it happen. The city and county public works devision is required to keep the main roads open for emergency vehicles at all times. If they can't that's when they shut down the roads around here. And yes you can rest assured that if there is a delay unless a state of emergency is declared that if EMS is delayed for a significant amount of time and it was detrimental to the patient the city or county will get sued. It happens all the time here.

Residential/commercial snow plowing is not an emergency service however if the response is slowed down due to lack of plowing on lets say a 1/4 mile driveway then the insurance is going to start looking for someone to sue to recoup their money because a reasonable and prudent person would be keeping access open for said emergency.

The heli pads st the hospital here are heated so no snow accumulates. True they do not launch a bird in a snow storm however if they have a window to fly between snow bands they do all the time. That's why they are heated pads.

Our fire dept here runs 50 plus calls every day. The rigs all have automatic chains and some of them are 4x4. There has to be a couple feet of snow on the ground to stop the rigs. Getting there isn't the problem. It's trying to conduct operations on scene where nothing has been plowed or shoveled where the lawsuits start happening.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Man, All i said is you almost have to think of snow as a emergency service, I did not say to not give right of way to emergency vehicles. Nor light up your truck like a Christmas tree and put sirens. I do know this ordinance, The law whatever the fire lanes and emergency doors have to be clear before factory workers can begin there shift. Period......In this area anyways. LoL this pot got stirred up real quick.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Well that escalated quickly lol


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

FredG said:


> Man, All i said is you almost have to think of snow as a emergency service, I did not say to not give right of way to emergency vehicles. Nor light up your truck like a Christmas tree and put sirens. I do know this ordinance, The law whatever the fire lanes and emergency doors have to be clear before factory workers can begin there shift. Period......In this area anyways. LoL this pot got stirred up real quick.


Well we are talking about Sno here. Seems like he likes to get a rise out of people.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

First off around here you will see a snowplow and municipal city or state snowplow stationed at a fire hall during a snow emergency so we can clear a path for the emergency rig to get to your great-grandmothers house on her unplowed roads

Regardless of what is done in your neck of the woods 

The helicopter is mute it will not fly in a snowstorm


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ktfbgb said:


> Well we are talking about Sno here. Seems like he likes to get a rise out of people.


Just call him Plowsite Viagra.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

It is not an emergency that your fire exits need to be clear is in a matter of can you do business or not

To remove the snow is not an emergency act


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

SnoFarmer said:


> The ones on you're welding helmet? Well sure you can .
> 
> Are Ya still driving the fire rig?
> Then your expected to.
> ...


Dislike....


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

I don't know about other states but in CT every time the state declared a emergency and closed down the roads due to snow, they exempted plow trucks all plow trucks. 
I personally saw during juno -(3 ft of snow) state troopers arresting people for driving regular cars and trucks during this if they didn't have a valid reason to be on the roads -(like emergency personal trying to get to work).
They didn't stop one private plow truck.

And on a side note in over 10 years of plowing, I never saw town or state plows clearing a road ahead of a fire truck or ambulance just for that purpose. 

While some may disagree I do think during those type of storms our job is to keep roads open at places where people are like hotels, condo's etc.. just in case emergency vehicles need to get in there. 

I wouldn't put it past someone in this day and age to sue a plow guy if they didn't open the roads up and someone couldn't get timely emergency service.

Just my two cents.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ok a plow truck is not a emergency vehicle. Nor to be compared with one. Just using it as a reference to the new guys that they have to be available 24-7 like first responders. Hopefully this will put us all on the same page. Peace out.


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