# Just an idea about salt



## Zodiac (Jul 9, 2008)

This might be kinda interesting, I'd like to see it go somewhere but if it doesn't, atleast the idea is out there.


Anyone (atleast in SE Wisconsin) ever think about a salt co-op type deal?

I mean, I see lots of people here that are going to need bulk salt, and lots of people have storage and distribution means already. 

I am not sure about the laws of a co-op, as I haven't looked yet.

But the way I see it, you need a few things.

Storage, a means to distribute it, members, and a supplier.

Salt is hard to come by, but if you put in one large order, might be better than lots of small orders. 

Someone that has the means to store the salt would have to either give, or lease the land and storage building to the co-op, for, lets say seven months a year (oct, nov, dec, jan, feb, march, april).

Members could buy into the co-op for whatever the co-op would decide on. It'd probably be whatever the lease on the land and building would be divded by the membership.

The members would place their orders with the co-op, and the co-op would obtain the salt and store it, and sell it back to the members for cost. The storage and everything else is paid by your dues. 

Someone would have to look into costs on land and everything.

But it might work, it'd atleast be a way to guarantee you're getting salt, and guarantee a price to customers and members.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

its a thought,


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

thats a great idea now why dont you head it up


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

hahaha, lots of talk going on here... if some one true had a concept of how to do this... the only way it would work, is too have all the members pre pay for there loads, almost 1 yr before, other just to get the ball rolling


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## Zodiac (Jul 9, 2008)

elite1msmith;581126 said:


> hahaha, lots of talk going on here... if some one true had a concept of how to do this... the only way it would work, is too have all the members pre pay for there loads, almost 1 yr before, other just to get the ball rolling


You're probably right.

That's probably the only really good way to do it.

Because if let's say 100 people wanted 1,000 tons of salt, the only way to guarantee a price would be to buy the 1,000 tons right away at a certain price, instead of 500 here and 500 there.

The storage of this salt would have to be pretty big too.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Isn't this how With a gain of Salts works it?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

this is a great idea, farmers have done this for supplies for years

but this would involve paying up front, in april- may if you would have paid back in may you probably could have bought all you wanted, but who knew this has never happened before


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## sherwin (Jul 11, 2008)

Our main supplier here is actually a farmers coop- they also supply most of our unilock paving supply and bulk mulch. The farming community has been gobbled up with urban sprawl and they took on these services 3 years ago to adapt.. It has been great for them and all contractors. For mulch and salt we let them know before July what we will need, they get that much contracted at a set price and we don't pay until we use it. Not only do we get better prices on almost everything, but we get a year end dividend from profits too. Last year we got a check for $2200- not bad for something we would have spent the $ on anyways. The dividend is based on amount of purchases, which keeps us coming back for more.


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

cretebaby;583608 said:


> this is a great idea, farmers have done this for supplies for years
> 
> but this would involve paying up front, in april- may if you would have paid back in may you probably could have bought all you wanted, but who knew this has never happened before


That is not so true. I was calling for salt in April, and was told "We dont have pricing yet, call back in August." I called every few weeks all summer long and was told the same thing. Then in August it was "We wont know until the municipal contracts come back". Then it was "Sorry, we don't have any salt for you."


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## Zodiac (Jul 9, 2008)

I keep thinking about this idea and I'm overwhelmed with how complex this would probably be.

Running over some numbers, and keep in mind I have no idea how a farmer's co-op works, but it does.

I know a guy that owns a co-op, he's pretty busy, but if I run into him I've got to ask him some questions.

This idea would probably work, once someone reads and understands all the laws and everything, but to be able to do it, and do what I originally thought it would be, would mean someone would volunteer their time to run everything, and personally, I either have no time (will next year), or they won't be willing to volunteer. 

Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way...

Maybe the idea of this co-op wouldn't be cheap salt, but the fact that you're guaranteed whatever salt you order. 

I don't know.


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

who knew running a buisness would be so hard?....even a non-profit one. that everyone wants a peice of the pie and of course.....something for nothin lol

Ask JAY BROWN about this....he buy's from a co-op and even last year they run out.

i know what youre going after Zodiac, but when worst comes to worst, a guy needs to take care of himself before his buddies. 

that's why i am hooked up with NASC, they are a high quality dealer. and they have always taken care of me. they have sold me more than i pre-bought, in year's past. (yes even the rough year's, like last). 

they ask that you take 80% of what you pre-order....oh and you don't pay 'em till it get's to youre bin. 

but itis still not wrote in stone that you will recieve youre salt.

EDIT: oh' and i forgot to mention that NASC is based about 45min from me 

PJ


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Check your State laws regarding salt storage. You could run into HUGE fines. Main problems would be from storing more salt then allowed on any one site and water pollution from runoff. We've had instances where someone had to dig new neighbors' wells (more than one), plus fines by Federal DEP and State DEP/ Dept of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

We have a Farmer's Co-Op here that does exactly that. 

And when they run out of salt because of shortages, you're still screwed. 

Good thought, though.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

This has actually been on my mind for a few weeks now. Now if a few guys were in a position to pre purchase, pay and hold onto 1.5 times the amount of salt they used in prior years. Could they not negotiate some great pricing in the off season, and also have salt for sale when everyone else dries up mid winter? Lets face it, there are lots of 2000 tonne contractors, but if someone co-ordinates 10 of them, and approach the suppliers with a 20,000 tonne pre paid order-could they not negotiate a sweet deal, or are they so ginormous they really wouldnt give a sh!t?


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

JohnnyRoyale;735769 said:


> This has actually been on my mind for a few weeks now. Now if a few guys were in a position to pre purchase, pay and hold onto 1.5 times the amount of salt they used in prior years. Could they not negotiate some great pricing in the off season, and also have salt for sale when everyone else dries up mid winter? Lets face it, there are lots of 2000 tonne contractors, but if someone co-ordinates 10 of them, and approach the suppliers with a 20,000 tonne pre paid order-could they not negotiate a sweet deal, or are they so ginormous they really wouldnt give a sh!t?


Think about purchasing a boatload...If you like, we can talk about it for next year. I know some dock operators in Wisconsin that may have space available and you could use your co-op idea to get a vessel load of salt and have a plentiful supply at a reasonable price.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

I have sourced out salt from Chile or Egypt for a riduculously low price- I have ordered some samples and will be getting them next week. I'm meeting with someone on monday to shed some light on transportation (by boat), port fees, etc. I'm seriously looking at bringing in 40,000 to 60,000 should the numbers fall correctly. I have the land in place (properly zoned) to store the product. Guess the deciding factor would be where the "landed numbers" come in at.


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

Sounds like you have all your ducks in a row...good luck.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Not yet. Cant count the chickens before they hatch. ~LOL.


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## musclecarboy (Aug 19, 2007)

JohnnyRoyale;739216 said:


> I have sourced out salt from Chile or Egypt for a riduculously low price- I have ordered some samples and will be getting them next week. I'm meeting with someone on monday to shed some light on transportation (by boat), port fees, etc. I'm seriously looking at bringing in 40,000 to 60,000 should the numbers fall correctly. I have the land in place (properly zoned) to store the product. Guess the deciding factor would be where the "landed numbers" come in at.


This is pretty interesting. Where are you going to store it? Out in the country?


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Some in Barrie, some in Newmarket, some in Etobicoke.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*salt etc.*



Zodiac;581095 said:


> This might be kinda interesting, I'd like to see it go somewhere but if it doesn't, atleast the idea is out there.
> 
> Anyone (atleast in SE Wisconsin) ever think about a salt co-op type deal?
> 
> ...


As a former salt miner and I have stated previously on the forum;

salt is not hard to come by if it is properly done an paid for in advance or upon delivery

Establishing a salt buying co-op allows you to be on the supplier side of the economics for buying salt rather than having to be on the demand side of things.

You pay one agreed to contracted price for all the tonnage you buy with no price spikes.

If it is delivered by rail you pay by the net ton plus a fuel surcharge, and if you do not use it all you do not have to buy a full amount the next year or if you bag and resell for softener salt or livestock salt its no problem.

Rail unloading or barge unloading using a vacuum system is faster and creates less work and salt dust pollution.

A buying co-op gives every member and edge and reduces the risk and expense with supply and demand as members meet to discuss thier individual and collective needs as far as bagged and bulk salt is concerned.

It would allow all of you to purchase salt at a huge savings versus the need for buying and having no salt to use with the problem of purchasing salt as needed.

A salt co-op would simply become another customer of the salt producer who would deliver it to your location via train or barge or overseas from north africa or chile or the caribbean.

The buying coop is established with a co-op charter and each member buys shares in the co-op every year just as a sugar beet grower pledges acreage to a sugar refinery.

If you go looking for 100,000-125,000 tons of bulk and bag salt the market is wide open to you as far as establishing a relationship with a supplier or several-money is money no body cares who' s blood is on it and a signed sale contract is an asset to you and a liability to the supplier of salt-win, win!!!!!!

You can shop around for a supplier with few problems and not have to deal with brokers commisions.

You can ask local retailers if they want in to buy shares for bag salt-win, win.

The excess inventory is always an asset which can be paid for over time if you have a good bank to deal with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A 125,000 ton bulk stock pile occupies about 3 acres with the asphault floor and diversion ditches for water run off.

The salt can be brough in by rail vacuumed up out from under the hopper cars and blown to the pile if it is near a rail yard or simpy pushed up a salt ramp with a small rough dozer with cleated tracks.

A permanent covered salt stock pile will have few pollution problems Farm Tek and Coverit do huge storage barns at the blink of an eye. Bagged salt can be stored there too.

Salt from a covered stock pile will not become wet and or clump causing problems.

If solar salt is purchased it can be stored and or bagged to be sold for softener or livestock salt during the off season giving you more room for rmore salt and more income!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Solar salt is of a better consistant quality due to washing screening and zero fines and it has a better melting power as it is purer than rock salt.

The solar salt can ordered with out the anti caking agent for ease of resale during the off season for softener salt and livestock salt. You would not require the anti caking agent as th esalt would be under cover at all times anyway.

If you do not need that amount of salt in a years time you save money on next years purchase.

You will be a permanent customer and a player in the market!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The traditional salt season used by exporters and salt mines goes from September to May first of the following year.

The issue for all of you is simply this:

You have to decide if you are going to row the boat by committee or in unison saving money and not having worries about salt supply.

There is plenty of solar salt from Chile and Morton salt at Cape Canaveral Fla., Long Beach Cal. and lots of hopper cars and belly dump gondolas in storage available.

If your co-op becomes a member of the Salt Institute that will be a huge edge for all concerned and the membership dues spread over a 100 or more members is very, very low and deductable as well.

As long as you do not work in unison you will continue to be victimised by the laws of supply and demand in the market place.

Remember!!!! 
solar salt is easier to market after the salt season due to its purity,

A very small bagging system would be required for resale of solar salt which has sale tax benefits as you are a reseller and not an end user. Reselling solar salt eliminates the sales tax monkey on the back too.

Comments, questions, no flaming please.

Arab proverbs:

When the dog barks the caravan moves.

Dwell not upon thy weariness, thy strength shall be according to the measure of thy desire.

Live like brothers and do business like strangers.

Never sit in a place of a man who can say to you, "Rise".


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Leon shoot me an email if you have time..........


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## gary42095 (Jan 4, 2009)

i know a ship has approx 40,000 tons on it. which you need to have off loaded and hauled. the pictures i have seen they use a cat 980g in the hull to load and the thing looks like a tonka toy down inside the ship 
but anyway not only do you need a place to store the salt... you need a machine to load it, and you need a scale to weigh it? so its not as simple as slap a building up and store it. i too am looking to get salt as cheap as possible, and get it secure so i know its there. i know the place near me, you prebuy and pay for X tons and you have to pick it up from the stock pile. but they only deal with large #'s. which between myself and 3 friends we are well over 1500 tons this year which i imagine is enough to do a prebuy. the gamble is... WHAT IF
what if you haul in 10,000 tons, pay for it, store it for a few months before winter... then you only use 50 tons for one storm?


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## jgoetter1 (Feb 23, 2007)

Leon sounds like he's thought this through. I would say the first step would be to create list of all the Wisconsin guys interested.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

gary42095;739697 said:


> i know a ship has approx 40,000 tons on it. which you need to have off loaded and hauled. the pictures i have seen they use a cat 980g in the hull to load and the thing looks like a tonka toy down inside the ship
> but anyway not only do you need a place to store the salt... you need a machine to load it, and you need a scale to weigh it? so its not as simple as slap a building up and store it. i too am looking to get salt as cheap as possible, and get it secure so i know its there. i know the place near me, you prebuy and pay for X tons and you have to pick it up from the stock pile. but they only deal with large #'s. which between myself and 3 friends we are well over 1500 tons this year which i imagine is enough to do a prebuy. the gamble is... WHAT IF
> what if you haul in 10,000 tons, pay for it, store it for a few months before winter... then you only use 50 tons for one storm?


That is the chance your supplier and everyone elses is taking now


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

JohnnyRoyale;739241 said:


> Some in Barrie, some in Newmarket, some in Etobicoke.


Do you know anyone from Southwest Sales? I know they have a few docks in Windsor and other places in Canada.

I'd like to throw some pricing from the UK to you as well if you are interested.


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

gary42095;739697 said:


> i know a ship has approx 40,000 tons on it. which you need to have off loaded and hauled. the pictures i have seen they use a cat 980g in the hull to load and the thing looks like a tonka toy down inside the ship
> but anyway not only do you need a place to store the salt... you need a machine to load it, and you need a scale to weigh it? so its not as simple as slap a building up and store it. i too am looking to get salt as cheap as possible, and get it secure so i know its there. i know the place near me, you prebuy and pay for X tons and you have to pick it up from the stock pile. but they only deal with large #'s. which between myself and 3 friends we are well over 1500 tons this year which i imagine is enough to do a prebuy. the gamble is... WHAT IF
> what if you haul in 10,000 tons, pay for it, store it for a few months before winter... then you only use 50 tons for one storm?


This is a great posting stream. I enjoy Leon's detailed explanation and believe he has many great ideas. I have shipped products all over the Great Lakes. I have worked with all of the shipping companies that operate on the lakes. I know many of the dock operators in different states along the Great Lakes. As we speak, I am putting a rail movement together. I mention this only to say it is a tedious and detailed process. Rail is a whole different animal than shipping by boat.

Each method of transportation has facets that you must consider when moving product. The first and largest hurdle is WHO IS BANKROLLING THE PROJECT. Most of the product that folks on here are talking about must be paid up front. So, just for fun, think about a 20,000 ton vessel coming in from whatever foreign country you choose at a price of a price of say $70/ton landed on a dock is a cool $1.4 million. That doesnt take into account dock fees, scaling, ticketing, etc.

I know there are some on here who already have the funds to move forward with such a project and cudos to them...others...please consider the cost.

I have serveral folks that I will be meeting with during the off season to discuss bringing in vessels of salt. If you are interested in more information, please feel free to contact me.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Got your Pm Kimber, and I will be in touch with you in the next few days. We are very serious, and have the infrastructure and $$ in place to make a deal happen..our problem is our inexperience in dealing with port authorities and all the hidden costs, timelines, rented dock space etc. Again, it all depends on where the numbers lie and if it would a feasible undertaking vs purchasing locally. 

Just curious-What would your estimate (from experience) be of the shipping costs of a bargeload of 20,000 tonnes be from Chile to Canada?


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

JohnnyRoyale;740590 said:


> Got your Pm Kimber, and I will be in touch with you in the next few days. We are very serious, and have the infrastructure and $$ in place to make a deal happen..our problem is our inexperience in dealing with port authorities and all the hidden costs, timelines, rented dock space etc. Again, it all depends on where the numbers lie and if it would a feasible undertaking vs purchasing locally.
> 
> Just curious-What would your estimate (from experience) be of the shipping costs of a bargeload of 20,000 tonnes be from Chile to Canada?


Johnny, I'm serious as well. Sounds like you and your group have put significant time and effort into this. To answer your question, there are alot of variables that determine a freight rate. I'm not trying to dodge your question, but it would be unfair for me to try to estimate a freight rate at this point. Much depends on the dock your using for your throughput, the vessel company pulling the freight. I have heard barge rates are pretty reasonable right now. We will talk more. I am planning a trip up into Michigan and would love to cross the border and come and meet you. Thanks.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*salt etc.*

Greetings and salutations,

Here in the staes we have independt customs agents who do all the paper work, insurance, scheduling and arranging transport for everything.

You can google "customs agents" and you will have quite few to consult with as they do everything internationally etc.

If you can find a reputable customs agent or agency in either New York, Montreal, or Halifax they will do all the work for you.

That is how all imports are handled here in the lower forty eight.

I am sure you know that trans-loading shipments is more expensive than using a deepwater docking as a rule due to the extra handling.

This would be something to discuss with CSL over dinner for a dedicated run through the Panama Canal.

Success,

Leon


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

kimber;740755 said:


> Johnny, I'm serious as well. Sounds like you and your group have put significant time and effort into this. To answer your question, there are alot of variables that determine a freight rate. I'm not trying to dodge your question, but it would be unfair for me to try to estimate a freight rate at this point. Much depends on the dock your using for your throughput, the vessel company pulling the freight. I have heard barge rates are pretty reasonable right now. We will talk more. I am planning a trip up into Michigan and would love to cross the border and come and meet you. Thanks.


In all honesty we havent. This all started as "lets put 10-15 companies toogether to do a volume (20k), one time prepaid purchase early summer to...what if we bring in 40-60k tonnes-kind of a "if you cant beat em-join em scenario". We will talk tomorrow, and possibly meet when your in Michigan.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

Hey Johnny and anyone else who prepays with you:

Remember to keep your salting prices up, even if getting the material cheaper. If you can get your material $50/ton cheaper because you prepaid and planned, and risked, you deserve that extra $50/ton in your pocket.

Also, I'd keep the bulk price at market rate for everyone that comes to you and wants to buy salt midseason.

Eventually, I wouldn't be suprised to see either you, Johnny, or a member of your group, get out of plowing and just become another salt middleman... because I bet the profit potential is much higher.

Besides selling to other contractors, there is municipalities, states, etc...


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Thanks for your advice Image, but rest assured, I'm not going to be making a $2-3 mil investment to give it away for free, or for bragging rights. Our market is wide open. Aside from the big guys who prefer the municipal contracts, there really appears to be only 1 player serving the needs of the contractor, which ironically is being supplied by the big 3. Time for a change.


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

JohnnyRoyale;740892 said:


> Thanks for your advice Image, but rest assured, I'm not going to be making a $2-3 mil investment to give it away for free, or for bragging rights. Our market is wide open. Aside from the big guys who prefer the municipal contracts, there really appears to be only 1 player serving the needs of the contractor, which ironically is being supplied by the big 3. Time for a change.


I'll send you a Pm on some information


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## rreg53104 (Sep 9, 2008)

*co op*

Municipalities are already doing that. the key for most would be location, location, location??


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## Offroadz71 (Oct 18, 2006)

if needed send me a pm for some help on pricing if needed. 
I am a Intermodal Marketing rep. I have contracts with all the railroads. I may be able to offer transportation to most locations needed. If you are purchasing from a foreign company, I would suggest however to ship directly to Vancouver to avoid customs fees. If however you are sharing a vessel that may more than likely move to New Orleans or something of that nature, then obviously as Kimber stated, they then move the product to Barges for final transit via the GreatLake system.


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## lawnproslawncar (Dec 9, 2007)

Just my opinion having a farm background. And we stopped dealing with coop's years and year ago for one reason: It takes that whole year to decide what they were going to do last year!
Now then, its a darn good idea, lets not call it a coop though lol


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## bulksalt (Jan 14, 2009)

Salt can be brought in area in ship load quantities. Just need a port facility to discharge the vessel. But unfortunately, a vessel full of salt (30-35,000 tons) costs a lot of money. and would have to be paid for in advance. Would need a terminal to distribute salt as well. Scales, computers, etc. 
[email protected]


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## bulksalt (Jan 14, 2009)

Peruvian and Chilean sources available


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