# Sub Contractor Lettering?



## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

Ok well I have a few questions in regards to Sub Contractors... 

Do you make your contrators remove their lettering while plowing for you in their truck? 

I Know we dont allow lettering on their trucks with their name or number on it while plowing for me. With no exceptions. 

Do you give contractors your magnets to put on their trucks or just have them go "Naked" with no lettering on their truck at all?!?!


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

no one????


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

I would have a have a hard time with you telling me to remove my lettering off my truck. A sub is just that a sub, you can tell them what the job is to look like once finished, that's about it. In addition the lettering is required for DOT in many cases. Again that's just me though.


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## abbottfarm (Dec 27, 2010)

Think about it like this, when you own a dump truck you have it lettered with your name on the door. If you hire it out to a larger construction company you are a sub contractor, they do not make you take you name off the door. I would not work for someone who told me I had to take my lettering off my door. After all, a sub is a sub, the truck is not owned by you, it's hired on by you.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

No, I would not take off(nor can I) or cover my lettering to work for anybody, If they dont want other companies to "advertise" then they should be using there own trucks.


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

I guess you're right... I know for a fact that at 4 of my pickier sites (Same manager) i will have one of my guys and a sub on.. He'll flip if he knows we partially subbed it out.. These are all pickup trucks plowing. I guess i've just gotten lucky in the past and none of my subs had lettering of any-kind on their trucks. I have paid for a re-lettering before.. The guy removed his little lettering on the window for me and i replaced it in the spring. (Money must-a been good to him) THink it is 60 bucks a season.. Nothing too bad. 
And i hope this doesnt turn into another USDOT argument but for us (SE Michiganders at least) Dont need USDOTS any more.


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## OC&D (Dec 2, 2009)

Not that my truck is lettered at this point in time (nor will it be), in the past I ran several trucks which all were lettered. I subbed out two of them for a couple of years to two different contractors and they never said a word about it. If they had, I'd have told them where to stick it. As BC said, if they're so high and mighty, why don't they buy more trucks and do everything in house?


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

As ridiculous as they are for not wanting to see you use a sub contractor, If they actually do complain why not just say you had a break down and needed to call someone in so that they got the service they paid for.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

BigBoyPlowin;1526731 said:


> I guess you're right... I know for a fact that at 4 of my pickier sites (Same manager) i will have one of my guys and a sub on..* He'll flip if he knows we partially subbed it out.. *These are all pickup trucks plowing. I guess i've just gotten lucky in the past and none of my subs had lettering of any-kind on their trucks. I have paid for a re-lettering before.. The guy removed his little lettering on the window for me and i replaced it in the spring. (Money must-a been good to him) THink it is 60 bucks a season.. Nothing too bad.
> And i hope this doesnt turn into another USDOT argument but for us (SE Michiganders at least) Dont need USDOTS any more.


I've often wondered about how that goes over. Do you tell them in advance that you are subbing out the work or just not mention it? I've never been a sub, nor have I ever wanted other companies on my sites. I know that subcontracting is common place but would worry about losing the job to them next year or at the end of the contract. Non-compete clauses maybe?

I would also not think you could make subs cover or remove their lettering.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I will act as the facilitator to this discussion....

Why do you all think a property manager would NOT want subs on his properties? Do you think its because he wants all one color trucks running around or do you think he has better reasons to be so strongly against it?


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## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

> Do you give contractors your magnets to put on their trucks


No, they aren't my trucks. Why would someone want to do something like that??



> I Know we dont allow lettering on their trucks with their name or number on it while plowing for me. With no exceptions.


Why is that????



> I know for a fact that at 4 of my pickier sites (Same manager) i will have one of my guys and a sub on.. He'll flip if he knows we partially subbed it out.


Why would he flip???


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

WIPensFan;1526855 said:


> I've often wondered about how that goes over. Do you tell them in advance that you are subbing out the work or just not mention it? I don't think it's relivent is it? as long as contracts are being fofilled I know that subcontracting is common place but would worry about losing the job to them next year or at the end of the contract.As for losing job with CLIENT again I dont think it would matter unless work is not being done properly Non-compete clauses maybe? It's a little different in a large city but in smaller cities I dont think it's as much of a prob, maybe the guy who subs me is just lucky to have me, an honest guy with morals(don't burn bridges), but I've never been asked to sign a non compete, though I'd prob make them sign one:laughing:.


__________________________________


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

BC Handyman;1526943 said:


> __________________________________


I think it's very relevant. If a client hires me to do the work and then they see Billy Bob's Plowing clearing the lot, and doing it well, because that's how I demand the work to be performed...Why wouldn't they call Billy Bob next year to see if he can do his good work cheaper than my price?


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

WIPensFan;1526855 said:


> I've often wondered about how that goes over. Do you tell them in advance that you are subbing out the work or just not mention it? I've never been a sub, nor have I ever wanted other companies on my sites. I know that subcontracting is common place but would worry about losing the job to them next year or at the end of the contract. Non-compete clauses maybe?
> 
> I would also not think you could make subs cover or remove their lettering.





Meezer;1526909 said:


> Why would he flip???


I have never told any of my clients i hired subs. Why? Because when they envision a sub contractor they think about a guy with a plow truck who has no idea what he doing. Or a dangerous person behind the wheel who is capable of damaging their facility. They feel if you cant handle the account you shouldn't have it. But really we Can handle it.. Its just we're all out during the storm for XX about of hours between the salting and plowing, Why not decrease that number by 5-15 hours by having a few more drivers.

In terms of competition, I feel if you went up to a manager and said you have been plowing this lot for the whole winter and would like to do it cheaper, I believe my prop. manager would see what was going on and refuse the proposal. Yeah you have to stay away from those types of companies, but it can happen... But we've had alot of long term companies, (for more than 10 years longterm) At that rate, some leave and come back... but thats business. We've been lucky to find a lot of workers who Just have a plow truck & Want to plow or Carpenters who also plow for money. This is why we have never had a problem with lettering because they usually already dont have it.
All my subs go through and extensive background check and carry *liability* so therefore my accounts are safe if something happens.



WIPensFan;1526972 said:


> I think it's very relevant. If a client hires me to do the work and then they see Billy Bob's Plowing clearing the lot, and doing it well, because that's how I demand the work to be performed...Why wouldn't they call Billy Bob next year to see if he can do his good work cheaper than my price?


This is why you take your name off. haha Its my account and you're having the PRIVILEGE of plowing at it. I talked to my buddy and he says its like a uniform, he doesnt allow it either. He also stated that he doesent allow his guys to wear ex landscaping co. jackets to work.... He does provide coats for his guys. I know it sounds like we're sooooooo mean but in reality many guys who are in the situation dont really have a problem with it.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

BigBoyPlowin;1526986 said:


> I have never told any of my clients i hired subs.
> 
> So you represent one thing, then do something else?
> 
> This is why you take your name off. haha Its my account and you're having the PRIVILEGE of plowing at it.


Are you for real?


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

BigBoyPlowin;1526986 said:


> I have never told any of my clients i hired subs. Why? Because when they envision a sub contractor they think about a guy with a plow truck who has no idea what he doing. Or a dangerous person behind the wheel who is capable of damaging their facility. They feel if you cant handle the account you shouldn't have it. But really we Can handle it. This is pretty accurate for the general public
> In terms of competition, I feel if you went up to a manager and said you have been plowing this lot for the whole winter and would like to do it cheaper, I believe my prop. manager would see what was going on and refuse the proposal.This could happen, but not all would do this, some are only about $
> All my subs go through and extensive background check and carry *liability* so therefore my accounts are safe if something happens. Good, more insurance checks are needed, so it makes the freestylers think twice before starting without insurance
> This is why you take your name off. haha Its my account and you're having the PRIVILEGE of plowing at it. PRIVLAGE? What? Really? you need them as much as they need you, it's a partnership of sorts, I think your lucky that there is guys with unmarked trucks, cause with that attitude Alot of guys would walk. I talked to my buddy and he says its like a uniform, he doesnt allow it either. He also stated that he doesent allow his guys to wear ex landscaping co. jackets to work.... He does provide coats for his guys. I know it sounds like we're sooooooo mean but in reality many guys who are in the situation dont really have a problem with it.


 Well I do alot of sub work & if it was me working with you, I would have a big problem with it. Though I'm sure your right that alot of guys wont care too much

Please don't think I'm not knocking what your saying, just trying to give you a contrasting opinion, in the spirit of adding to the conversationThumbs Up


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

TCLA;1526996 said:


> Are you for real?


Yes, Its not like the contract specifically said I cant use another reliable worker. There will NEVER be a time when my subs aren't accompanied by one of my full time workers. Im not the only one who has used sub contractors am I? I think i will change around our route so our couple subs are at different facilities.. that might be a better idea. Please inform me what you/ your co. would do in this situation.



BC Handyman;1527023 said:


> Well I do alot of sub work & if it was me working with you, I would have a big problem with it. Though I'm sure your right that alot of guys wont care too much
> 
> Please don't think I'm not knocking what your saying, just trying to give you a contrasting opinion, in the spirit of adding to the conversationThumbs Up


I appreciate it. No hard feelings! As long as there are no direct blows towards me I am completely fine with hearing ones rational opinion.


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## CashinH&P (Jan 14, 2012)

This is really interesting. I have often woundered how subs with lettering and there employer work this out. My friend plows for me sometimes if I get behind. His truck is letterd (he is a general contractor) not one person has ever said anything about his truck being on my job (plowing or mowing) 

I think if some one were to say some thing just tell them that the sub is a trusted colleague and has all of the proper insurance


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

BigBoyPlowin;1527034 said:


> Yes, Its not like the contract specifically said I cant use another....


If it doesn't state this, then why do you say this?



BigBoyPlowin;1526731 said:


> I know for a fact that at 4 of my pickier sites (Same manager) i will have one of my guys and a sub on.. He'll flip if he knows we partially subbed it out...


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

TCLA;1527045 said:


> If it doesn't state this, then why do you say this?


His holy book probably wouldnt think that would be ethical...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

BigBoyPlowin;1527034 said:


> Yes, Its not like the contract specifically said I cant use another reliable worker. * There will NEVER be a time when my subs aren't accompanied by one of my full time workers.* Im not the only one who has used sub contractors am I? I think i will change around our route so our couple subs are at different facilities.. that might be a better idea. Please inform me what you/ your co. would do in this situation.
> 
> I appreciate it. No hard feelings! As long as there are no direct blows towards me I am completely fine with hearing ones rational opinion.


Yes, but then they are not really a subcontractor. I thought the States and Feds were starting to crack down on this more. Meaning a true subcontractor is not under any direction from the company that hired them.


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

CashinH&P;1527043 said:


> This is really interesting. I have often woundered how subs with lettering and there employer work this out. My friend plows for me sometimes if I get behind. His truck is letterd (he is a general contractor) not one person has ever said anything about his truck being on my job (plowing or mowing)
> 
> I think if some one were to say some thing just tell them that the sub is a trusted colleague and has all of the proper insurance


Thats how i view it too. We did that when we first started doing paver/ hardscape jobs. It was never a problem. Everything was professional from the trucks to our uniforms. As long as the client can walk up to the head foreman and have a professional conversation with them It works out well. If the client feels you aren't educated/ Can't answer any questions about the job, thats when they start to get mad.


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## joe2025 (Nov 26, 2010)

This is a good conversation going on here, glad someone asked the question about lettering on subs trucks. I have anyone that subs for me cover their lettering with my magnetic signs. I haven’t had anyone complain about it yet. I do this for a couple reasons: 1. as stated by WIPensFan, I don’t want my clients to see some other contractor providing them with service that my company was hired to supply. I’m not concerned with the client asking “Billy Bob” for a cheaper price, If Billy Bob wanted the contract then he would just call the client and bid on it anyway. I want people to know who is providing the quality of service that I require for all of the properties that we service. 

2. I just signed a 5 year seasonal that requires in the contract that I need to get written permission to “sub contract” any of the work. Now I’m sure they will not ***** about it if they see a truck with a different name on it plowing but I would rather not deal with the headache of having to explain that I brought the truck on because we were behind or that one of our trucks was broke down or something. I just think that it’s more of an advertising thing rather that a show of power over someone else. Plus I think it is more professional to have uniformity as much as possibly in your fleet, no matter how many trucks you have. I can’t stand seeing trucks out there with nothing on their truck; sometimes I’ve even seen guys plowing without as much as a light on the truck. I wonder to myself what are they trying to hide or is it that they do not have faith in their company or they don’t have insurance. To me it’s the best free advertising you can get is to be seen doing quality work on a job site.

And yes the states and feds are starting to crack down on snow management and landscaping companies about subs and also about paying taxes. I don’t agree with the government playing big brother but if I have to shell out $ 3,000 ++ a year for all the correct insurance for subs and employees then lets level the playing field and make sure everyone is playing by the same rules.

Sorry this is a little long but just wanted to give it my .02¢


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## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

> I have never told any of my clients i hired subs. Why? Because when they envision a sub contractor they think about a guy with a plow truck who has no idea what he doing. Or a dangerous person behind the wheel who is capable of damaging their facility. They feel if you cant handle the account you shouldn't have it.


Did your clients actually tell you this or are you just "assuming" that they are thinking that?



> This is why you take your name off. haha Its my account and you're having the PRIVILEGE of plowing at it.


We wear many hats. We hire subs & sometimes we are the subs. So from a subs perspective, it's actually YOUR PRIVILEGE to be able to hire efficient & reliable sub-contractors such as my company. Thumbs Up



> I talked to my buddy and he says its like a uniform, he doesnt allow it either. He also stated that he doesent allow his guys to wear ex landscaping co. jackets to work.... He does provide coats for his guys. I know it sounds like we're sooooooo mean but in reality many guys who are in the situation dont really have a problem with it.


I'm a GC. As is the case with most GC's, we use subs. Sometimes, we are subs on a project.

In over 30 years of doing this stuff, I can think of only 4 times that someone wanted us to remove/cover our signage off of our vehicles. In all cases, my response was NFW. That was & still is a deal breaker for me.

I would never ask a sub to remove/cover their signage for many reasons. I wouldn't them thinking that I'm some kind of immature egomaniac:laughing:


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

joe2025;1527128 said:


> This is a good conversation going on here, glad someone asked the question about lettering on subs trucks. I have anyone that subs for me cover their lettering with my magnetic signs. I haven't had anyone complain about it yet. I do this for a couple reasons: 1. as stated by WIPensFan, I don't want my clients to see some other contractor providing them with service that my company was hired to supply. I'm not concerned with the client asking "Billy Bob" for a cheaper price, If Billy Bob wanted the contract then he would just call the client and bid on it anyway. I want people to know who is providing the quality of service that I require for all of the properties that we service.
> 
> 2. I just signed a 5 year seasonal that requires in the contract that I need to get written permission to "sub contract" any of the work. Now I'm sure they will not ***** about it if they see a truck with a different name on it plowing but I would rather not deal with the headache of having to explain that I brought the truck on because we were behind or that one of our trucks was broke down or something. I just think that it's more of an advertising thing rather that a show of power over someone else. Plus I think it is more professional to have uniformity as much as possibly in your fleet, no matter how many trucks you have. I can't stand seeing trucks out there with nothing on their truck; sometimes I've even seen guys plowing without as much as a light on the truck. I wonder to myself what are they trying to hide or is it that they do not have faith in their company or they don't have insurance. To me it's the best free advertising you can get is to be seen doing quality work on a job site.
> 
> ...


Love your post! Agree 100%


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

Got another question: 

In the past we have hired guys who carry their own liability...
Does anyone cover another subs liability? 
If so what do you pay a guy like this? 
All of our guys carry their own. But I has a email filled with resumes and some do and some don't. Also I have guys wanting to be paid cash... Yes or no? 
It's crazy because everyone's who is applying is asking these questions and usually I say it's my way or the highway but I'm kinda toning it down and trying to work with people asking as it doesn't put me in a corner.


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

BigBoyPlowin;1527233 said:


> Got another question:
> 
> In the past we have hired guys who carry their own liability...
> Does anyone cover another subs liability?
> ...


I don't have to deal with this stuff yet, but I would say don't lower your standards to accommodate them.

If you don't want to pay them cash because you want to run your business 100% legit then don't. Let them find a guy who want's to go under the table and not pay taxes.


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## OC&D (Dec 2, 2009)

There is no issue with cash as long as you report it on the 1099 for that sub. The IRS cannot dictate a method of payment, just that it's reported.

Another issue with putting your company's name on a sub's truck is this begins to blur the line when it comes to the definition of an independent contractor. How independent can they be when they're sporting _your_ company name on their truck?

I think one issue here is that you, as a business owner, are misrepresenting yourself to your customers. Where do you draw the line here? Why not line up all your subs with your magnetics on their doors in front of someone else's nice looking shop for some advertising and website photos? Maybe you could sweeten the pot by renting a couple of wheel loaders for the day too! Would this be crossing a line? IMO, you already crossed that line when you asked your subs to put your signs on their trucks.


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## joe2025 (Nov 26, 2010)

BigBowPlowin, I wouldn’t pay someone else’s insurance for them. I would imagine that every state is a little different but I treat a sub as if I was leasing a piece of equipment from them. You should talk to your insurance company but I treat it the same as I would when leasing a backhoe for the season. The driver needs to be treated as a sub with a written contract. It all depends on how YOU want to handle it. Do you want to take a chance if something goes wrong or do you want to make sure you are covered? 

Everyone likes cash but unless you have a stock pile of it for the winter season think of it this way: You received a check from a customer to your business and have to report it as income. Then you have to pay let’s say 38% for taxes and now you want to take $45 of “profit” out of your pocket and hand it to someone who just sticks it in their pocket. So now you’ve paid out around $70 and all you have to show for it is an hour of plowing. You showed profit money on paper but you gave it away. Don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to be negative about paying cash; all I’m saying is that there are several ways you have to look at it before you make a decision.

I have everyone fill out an application for employment so I at least have it on file weather I pay them cash or on the books. This way I am covered if something goes wrong I could say that they applied for the job and I just hired them yesterday knowing that we were getting a snow event.

Bottom line is these days you have to make sure “your” covered because people don’t play games these days when it comes to an accident or an injury. A lot of people have no idea what it takes to run a snow management company these days. You just can’t hop in a truck and off you go, I spend days and days on making sure everything is in place and that’s just from the legal point. Then its days and days getting ready for a storm. 

I do have a guy I pay $65/hr. for a 1 ton dump with a 9’ plow when I need him but again I have all of the paperwork on file just in case, including copies of his liability insurance. It’s good to listen to others advise and learn what others think but the bottom line is that it is “your way or the highway” because it is your business.


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## crazyboy (Feb 3, 2009)

Most sub agreements have a no compete clause, so what does it matter if they see your sub working for you?


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## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

OC&D;1527294 said:


> There is no issue with cash as long as you report it on the 1099 for that sub. The IRS cannot dictate a method of payment, just that it's reported.
> 
> Another issue with putting your company's name on a sub's truck is this begins to blur the line when it comes to the definition of an independent contractor. How independent can they be when they're sporting _your_ company name on their truck?
> 
> I think one issue here is that you, as a business owner, are misrepresenting yourself to your customers. Where do you draw the line here? Why not line up all your subs with your magnetics on their doors in front of someone else's nice looking shop for some advertising and website photos? Maybe you could sweeten the pot by renting a couple of wheel loaders for the day too! Would this be crossing a line? IMO, you already crossed that line when you asked your subs to put your signs on their trucks.


One of the things not mentioned, what happens when one of the sub/employee gets pissed for whatever reason & turns the guy in????


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Thumbs Up
.........
.


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## 07F-250V10 (Jul 18, 2011)

BigBoyPlowin;1526731 said:


> I guess you're right... I know for a fact that at 4 of my pickier sites (Same manager) i will have one of my guys and a sub on.. He'll flip if he knows we partially subbed it out.. These are all pickup trucks plowing. I guess i've just gotten lucky in the past and none of my subs had lettering of any-kind on their trucks. I have paid for a re-lettering before.. The guy removed his little lettering on the window for me and i replaced it in the spring. (Money must-a been good to him) THink it is 60 bucks a season.. Nothing too bad.
> And i hope this doesnt turn into another USDOT argument but for us (SE Michiganders at least) Dont need USDOTS any more.


For what and why do we not need DOT numbers anymore?


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## show-n-go (Feb 5, 2009)

If a company hires you to do a job they shouldn't care if you hire half of the city to get the job done so long as the job gets done to the agreed standard.

I subbed for a local guy for 5 years straight, first i would never dream of contacting one of his property's to try and steal them from him as he trusted me with his clients and keys to his shop plus taken great care of me. He contacted his insurance company as well as his attorney and added me and my vehicle to his insurance polocy to make sure we h covered on his lot's. I have my own insurance as well since i worked for a few guys though.


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## blazer2plower (Nov 19, 2011)

I leave my info on my trucks. One Guy wanted me to remove them I told him to pound sand. The landscaper I sub for takes good care of me. I have my route. I would not dream of trying to get some of his clients. He sends me work. And he fills my tank up at the end of day. And for my lettering he could careless.


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

07F-250V10;1541382 said:


> For what and why do we not need DOT numbers anymore?


The law was changed earlier this year in Michigan. DOT numbers are no longer needed on trucks under 26001lbs, however, you better have your caution light (now up to a $500 fine).

As to the OP...You know, most of the stuff in this thread you don't have to worry about if you are a good (honest) company and find subs you can trust. I encourage my guys to have their trucks lettered, but my clients are happy with our services and have called back year to year.

One other thing... If you don't mention anything about subcontracting, what happens to your subs when something negative does happen? You should have something in your contract about indemnification, here's an example : _Indemnification. The owner/representative shall indemnify, defend and hold harmless *the contractor, its owners, and subcontractors* from and against any and all claims, damages, reasonable attorneys� fees, costs and expenses which the contractor incurs as a result of a claim or claims brought by the owner or any third party, arising out of any wrongdoing, negligence and/or breach of contract by the owner alleged or otherwise, or any Act of God, including but not limited to extraordinary weather conditions, that is related, in any manner whatsoever, to the premises or the owner�s involvement with the premises or the services, including but not limited to personal injuries resulting from slip and fall accidents._


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I have been in both situations as a sub I was paid to take off my lettering and then he paid o put it back on 
As long as he was paying I was ok with it I was paid $15,000 for the season for one truck and kid steer 
Now that my company is bigger I have subs they can't do certain places due to their contracts I have signed insurance reasons, honestly I'm ok with that because it lowers down the amount of companies that can bid on certain sites due to lack of equipment that is theirs sorta keeps bigger sites at better rates than smaller sites can get cheaper prices because any one can bid them


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## Eggie329 (Nov 25, 2009)

BigBoyPlowin, luckily we don't need USDOT numbers anymore, but do your subs get hit for no company name and city when plowing commercial? My buddy tried no stickers, but got a stack of tickets for plowing commercially with no company name and city on the truck.


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## wilsonsground (Jun 29, 2012)

You'd never get me to take my lettering off my trucks if I subbed out. Even if you were willing to pay for it to be redone in spring. Why should I represent your company name, running my truck, my break downs, my fuel, my insurance all at a price hardly/if any more than you pay your guys in your trucks? You obv took on more work than your company can handle and that's not our problem. 

If youre worried about guys stealing your accounts write up something and each of you sign it, although there still isn't much you can about it if your PMs go to them asking for a price.


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