# Idiot proof route sheets....



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I've tried over the years to come up with an idiot proof route sheet, one where they won't forget customer's and specific services. Well I thought I came up with one last season, all it had was customer name, address, time in and time out. Now, how hard is that to write down? Well between the chicken scratch that you couldn't read and the missed times it was at times a fiasco. This year during our pre season AND a meeting we had a couple weeks ago you would have thought no one could read or write, missing times and forgetting to perform certain services at a few places and even forgetting to do customer's all together.....WTH! I would be a bit more understanding if we've been getting pounded but ummmmm no where near that! So now I've come up with another system, basically same thing except there is no writing involved except for times in and out AND whatever they "forget" to do is back charged to their paycheck. Yes I know some of you bleeding hearts will bash me for back charging them and say thats not fair, you can't do that bla,bla,bla. But ya know what? whats not fair is us as owner's putting up with stupidity and costing me 350.00 on the last little storm alone! I've tried to be nice, treat them professionally but once again the only thing they seem to understand is me being a P*&%K.


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## Mike NY (Feb 2, 2009)

I made mine all printed up- name, address, what special duties are needed on job(ex.Fire exit etc..)all they need to do is put time in/out and a check mark after what was done on the job. Simple right! But do you think they could do that? People are LAZY. I feel your pain!


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

after reading how you guys are doing your time sheets,,,id love to work you ya'll... we have 3 times to wright in,,,then start and finish time.. our paper work is a joke. luckly I dont have to do half of it. I just do start/finish times. but yes i feel your pain.


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## nepatsfan (Sep 16, 2004)

Brian Young;1406393 said:


> I've tried over the years to come up with an idiot proof route sheet, one where they won't forget customer's and specific services. Well I thought I came up with one last season, all it had was customer name, address, time in and time out. Now, how hard is that to write down? Well between the chicken scratch that you couldn't read and the missed times it was at times a fiasco. This year during our pre season AND a meeting we had a couple weeks ago you would have thought no one could read or write, missing times and forgetting to perform certain services at a few places and even forgetting to do customer's all together.....WTH! I would be a bit more understanding if we've been getting pounded but ummmmm no where near that! So now I've come up with another system, basically same thing except there is no writing involved except for times in and out AND whatever they "forget" to do is back charged to their paycheck. Yes I know some of you bleeding hearts will bash me for back charging them and say thats not fair, you can't do that bla,bla,bla. But ya know what? whats not fair is us as owner's putting up with stupidity and costing me 350.00 on the last little storm alone! I've tried to be nice, treat them professionally but once again the only thing they seem to understand is me being a P*&%K.


Its sad but I agree with you 100% especially the last line. You try to be nice but it seems they only remember when you blow up or throw things around etc. Fortunately for us the plowing typically goes pretty well. I have guys that care and want to work which is sometimes the best answer to the problem. Without either of those things you will have problems. It isn't rocket science to fill out a route sheet or follow one. To me that is someone who doesn't care or isn't focused. You can't teach work ethic.


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

Sounds like you need to find better employee's. Yeah I know, it's like finding that needle in the hay stack.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

ALC-GregH;1406450 said:


> Sounds like you need to find better employee's. Yeah I know, it's like finding that needle in the hay stack.


It's just the little things that add up time and again. But yeah after doing our last billing, there was several hundred dollars missing so to speak. Other than this issue these guys are doing fine but "C'mon man". I just don't get it.......very minimal snow, 3 "meetings" to go over everything and still, stupid mistakes that just leave me shaking my head wondering how and why.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

I have one question about all of this: How much experience do your guys have and how much do you pay them (ballpark)? You get what you pay for.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

peteo1;1406588 said:


> I have one question about all of this: How much experience do your guys have and how much do you pay them (ballpark)? You get what you pay for.


This is really not true anymore, work is usually very low on the priority list these days, even when paying a good wage. Now what's going on "after work" that's the important stuff!


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## espyj (Aug 19, 2010)

Sounds like you need to invest in some technology. We have tablets (Motorolla Xoom, iPad, etc) in our trucks so its easy to make notes, mark times, etc. Easier to adjust on the fly too if needed. 

You could also invest in GPS systems. You'd know where each truck was, how long it sat at that location, etc as proof


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

WIPensFan;1406595 said:


> This is really not true anymore, work is usually very low on the priority list these days, even when paying a good wage. Now what's going on "after work" that's the important stuff!


No, I beg to differ. In my experience the guy who is making $10/hr isnt going to give you the same as the guy who is making $15/hour doing the same job. Personally I am not going to work for anyone who only pays $10/hr. I certainly am not going to give a $*&^ about doing their job for them either no matter what it is. If you cant find a guy to put a check mark on a piece of paper maybe you should either find someone who can pay attention to what they are doing or let someone else do your hiring for you. Plowing isnt rocket science and its not very hard to fill out a checklist. In regards to Brian docking guys pay for mistakes I can understand doing that ONLY if they dont take some initiative and go back to the account and correct the mistake. I think you have to give someone a chance to make it right before you mess with their money. If it keeps happening then yeah, go ahead and dock them some money or maybe think about replacing them.


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

Is it even legal to take money from an employee if he forgets to shovel a walk?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

peteo1;1406608 said:


> No, I beg to differ. In my experience the guy who is making $10/hr isnt going to give you the same as the guy who is making $15/hour doing the same job. Personally I am not going to work for anyone who only pays $10/hr. I certainly am not going to give a $*&^ about doing their job for them either no matter what it is. If you cant find a guy to put a check mark on a piece of paper maybe you should either find someone who can pay attention to what they are doing or let someone else do your hiring for you. Plowing isnt rocket science and its not very hard to fill out a checklist. In regards to Brian docking guys pay for mistakes I can understand doing that ONLY if they dont take some initiative and go back to the account and correct the mistake. I think you have to give someone a chance to make it right before you mess with their money. If it keeps happening then yeah, go ahead and dock them some money or maybe think about replacing them.


I've hired guys to shovel sidewalks at 20 bucks an hour a few years ago and guess what I still got maybe 5 bucks worth of work done....will never make that mistake again! Yes, I agree, go back and fix the problem but not on my time but how do you forget to salt a lot thats #5 on a route sheet after being shown where and what to do and telling them to go through the route. I guess what ticks me off the most is these guys have been told a couple times what to do and for the most part it gets done but these few exceptions are an expensive miss.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Sounds like you need an employee that isnt a complete rock head. I can usually tell when a guy will or wants to work just by the way he talks and the way he carries himself. Granted this isnt a foolproof way of doing things but you can tell a lot by what a man says and how he acts. Most landscapers/plow guys I know tend to hire guys that are 18-25 or so. I wont speak for anyone else but when I was that age all I gave a sh*& about was drinking beer and getting laid. I developed a pretty good work ethic though and now I understand that you gotta do the work before you get to play. I personally would hire someone that is older and has experience and pay him a little better than I normally would a younger guy in hopes that the older fella will show up on time and do the job correctly. It also helps a bit when you aren't a ***** to your employees. I've worked for one or two and there is a reason I dont anymore.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

espyj;1406596 said:


> Sounds like you need to invest in some technology. We have tablets (Motorolla Xoom, iPad, etc) in our trucks so its easy to make notes, mark times, etc. Easier to adjust on the fly too if needed.
> 
> You could also invest in GPS systems. You'd know where each truck was, how long it sat at that location, etc as proof


I was thinking of buying the software for our on board cameras which have gps but a bit on the expensive side. Plus, my God just go do your job....I've done everything these guys are doing myself so I know how long it takes within reason.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

peteo1;1406633 said:


> Sounds like you need an employee that isnt a complete rock head. I can usually tell when a guy will or wants to work just by the way he talks and the way he carries himself. Granted this isnt a foolproof way of doing things but you can tell a lot by what a man says and how he acts. Most landscapers/plow guys I know tend to hire guys that are 18-25 or so. I wont speak for anyone else but when I was that age all I gave a sh*& about was drinking beer and getting laid. I developed a pretty good work ethic though and now I understand that you gotta do the work before you get to play. I personally would hire someone that is older and has experience and pay him a little better than I normally would a younger guy in hopes that the older fella will show up on time and do the job correctly. It also helps a bit when you aren't a ***** to your employees. I've worked for one or two and there is a reason I dont anymore.


I understand what your saying and I've tried all the things you mentioned. BTW I was hiring,lol Like I said before, for the most part everything is going very well with these guys EXCEPT for one of the more important things like making sure you do your route and not forget anyone. Hopefully some snow for us here next week!


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

Oh I know, we have sheets with all the properties listed with spaces for date,in/out times, walks, and how many bags of salt for the walks pretty straight forward (I think). It works...kinda but they forget that there is am and pm usually it isn't a problem but when you get a decent storm and they go to a property multiple times and keep using the same sheet and just wright down a bunch of in and out times without putting am/pm's or change dates it can make it real fun to figure out wtf they were doing. When you show them the sheet or sheets and ask them what's what they go uh umm and get the deer in the headlights look on their face:crying:Is it REALLY that hard???


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## KBTConst (Oct 25, 2009)

It shouldn't matter if your making 5 bucks or 20 bucks an hr they know what the job is when they take it and they know the pay they need to suck it up and do the job the way it is suppost to be done and have a little respect for them selfs and the company they work for.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

NICHOLS LANDSCA;1406648 said:


> Oh I know, we have sheets with all the properties listed with spaces for date,in/out times, walks, and how many bags of salt for the walks pretty straight forward (I think). It works...kinda but they forget that there is am and pm usually it isn't a problem but when you get a decent storm and they go to a property multiple times and keep using the same sheet and just wright down a bunch of in and out times without putting am/pm's or change dates it can make it real fun to figure out wtf they were doing. When you show them the sheet or sheets and ask them what's what they go uh umm and get the deer in the headlights look on their face:crying:Is it REALLY that hard???


This is what I'm talking about! LOL. We do a few places that have at least a couple locations and do you think they could have put which one they were at or like you, am or pm.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

KBTConst;1406650 said:


> It shouldn't matter if your making 5 bucks or 20 bucks an hr they know what the job is when they take it and they know the pay they need to suck it up and do the job the way it is suppost to be done and have a little respect for them selfs and the company they work for.


Well said Thumbs Up


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

Brian Young;1406393 said:


> I've tried over the years to come up with an idiot proof route sheet, one where they won't forget customer's and specific services. Well I thought I came up with one last season, all it had was customer name, address, time in and time out. Now, how hard is that to write down? Well between the chicken scratch that you couldn't read and the missed times it was at times a fiasco. This year during our pre season AND a meeting we had a couple weeks ago you would have thought no one could read or write, missing times and forgetting to perform certain services at a few places and even forgetting to do customer's all together.....WTH! I would be a bit more understanding if we've been getting pounded but ummmmm no where near that! So now I've come up with another system, basically same thing except there is no writing involved except for times in and out AND whatever they "forget" to do is back charged to their paycheck. Yes I know some of you bleeding hearts will bash me for back charging them and say thats not fair, you can't do that bla,bla,bla. But ya know what? whats not fair is us as owner's putting up with stupidity and costing me 350.00 on the last little storm alone! I've tried to be nice, treat them professionally but once again the only thing they seem to understand is me being a P*&%K.


You know why you have this problem? I'll tell you it is function of the business model you are using.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Why not makeup a check sheet? One sheet of paper on a clip board. Have all the addresses they do in the first column and at the top of the paper all the services you offer, So all they need to do is check them off .


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## downtoearthnh (Jan 16, 2009)

Brian Young;1406634 said:


> I was thinking of buying the software for our on board cameras which have gps but a bit on the expensive side. Plus, my God just go do your job....I've done everything these guys are doing myself so I know how long it takes within reason.


Big mistake to hold your employees to your standard of time, within reason. I have found that the same job done by an employee usually takes 30-50% longer. I can't explain it, just the sad reality.


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## nepatsfan (Sep 16, 2004)

grandview;1406669 said:


> Why not makeup a check sheet? One sheet of paper on a clip board. Have all the addresses they do in the first column and at the top of the paper all the services you offer, So all they need to do is check them off .


Times are very important on the sheet. For discrepensies and if you ever had a slip and fall. You should have a record of what time a property was serviced especially for commercial.

lawyer- did you salt? yes we salted/ what time- Ummm I dont know./ how much did you put down-ummm i dont know.

This scenario could be 3 years after the event. Times are very important. With residential we leave a box and they just fill in the time rather than a check. Commercial is time in, time out, services performed and how much salt if it is used. We ballpark the salt but it's good to have.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

peteo1;1406608 said:


> No, I beg to differ. In my experience the guy who is making $10/hr isnt going to give you the same as the guy who is making $15/hour doing the same job. Personally I am not going to work for anyone who only pays $10/hr. I certainly am not going to give a $*&^ about doing their job for them either no matter what it is. If you cant find a guy to put a check mark on a piece of paper maybe you should either find someone who can pay attention to what they are doing or let someone else do your hiring for you. Plowing isnt rocket science and its not very hard to fill out a checklist. In regards to Brian docking guys pay for mistakes I can understand doing that ONLY if they dont take some initiative and go back to the account and correct the mistake. I think you have to give someone a chance to make it right before you mess with their money. If it keeps happening then yeah, go ahead and dock them some money or maybe think about replacing them.


Yes $10.00/hr is not appealing to most people these days, I'm starting guys at $13.00/hr to run blowers and do a minimal amount of shoveling. I still say $10.00/hr isn't bad for what you have to do: Wake up at 3:00am(what the hell else you got going at this time??), be coherent enough to start a snowblower, have enough schooling to operate a shovel, and then go to your part time or full time job somewhere else. You have to put your time in to advance in pay, just like any other job. Everybody wants it all right away.

Not only that, but in case you hadn't noticed, pricing for snow removal has tanked. It's harder for most companies to pay guys more than $15.00-20.00/hr no matter what job they're required to do. Bottom line is: NO MATTER WHAT YOU'RE BEING PAID, DO YOUR JOB THE BEST YOU CAN, IT WILL PAY OFF LATER ON. YOU WILL THEN HAVE MORE LEVERAGE TO ASK FOR MORE MONEY DOWN THE ROAD.


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

...it is even asked to much to put a time and date on the sheet we have.


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

downtoearthnh;1406688 said:


> Big mistake to hold your employees to your standard of time, within reason. I have found that the same job done by an employee usually takes 30-50% longer. I can't explain it, just the sad reality.


I agree.

And... I can explain it: They get paid by the hour... Think about it...


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## Workin 25/8 (Jan 19, 2011)

TatraFan;1406661 said:


> You know why you have this problem? I'll tell you it is function of the business model you are using.


Please voice your opinion unless it involves replacing all of his equipment with tatras/mogs.


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## r1anz (Dec 31, 2011)

Maybe you need to do an undercover boss thing and see whats really going on work'd for me haha work at the buisness i bought for a year (during purch. process) as just reg employee before they knew i would be new owner. the things i saw two employees leaving early sitting in trucks not getting stuff done BS'n with tenets lying to old owner how this happen thats why this didnt get done ect.ect


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## brianbrich1 (Dec 3, 2010)

In my opinion most employee's will not pay attention to details or care like an employer.. It is rare to find that employee and when you do you better do what is neccesary to keep them. When all is said and done if it is that much of a issue micro manage them.. Have them call you at each location on arrival go over what should be done and call you when finished. Keep your own records and check n balance that way.. Is it a pain in the a$$ to do this yes. Will it insure the jobs are completed as they should. Yes. If being an employer was easy and had no headaches every one would do it..


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## Calvinslawns (Jan 1, 2011)

You could always warn them, if they don't fill out the sheets correctly (IE: no time) they don't get paid becuase they don't have it marked down where they were working. Could have been sitting in McDonalds for 3 hours on break. At my full time job, if your time sheet isn't filled out correctly you don't get paid for that day or time that's messed up, you can go back and fix it but it shows up later in a different pay period.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

nepatsfan;1406694 said:


> Times are very important on the sheet. For discrepensies and if you ever had a slip and fall. You should have a record of what time a property was serviced especially for commercial.
> 
> lawyer- did you salt? yes we salted/ what time- Ummm I dont know./ how much did you put down-ummm i dont know.
> 
> This scenario could be 3 years after the event. Times are very important. With residential we leave a box and they just fill in the time rather than a check. Commercial is time in, time out, services performed and how much salt if it is used. We ballpark the salt but it's good to have.


That would be on the check list ,time in,time out.


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## rv4jesus (Jan 18, 2011)

*I'm with grandview on this one*

You don't need a gps or a more complicated system KISS principle is best. A one page checklist should do the trick.


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## V_Scapes (Jan 1, 2011)

My buddy works for xtreme sno pros here in NJ. the owner just gave him an ipad. he has to input time in/out. what he was doing: plowing,salting,shoveling...where and what time, how much.) also who he was working with, what truck he had, any repairs that need to be made to the truck or property. and almost all of the communication is through the ipad. no need for texting or calling.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

Someone asked if its legal to short them if they're per hour labor... the short answer is no. I feel brian's pain, but personally i'd look for other incentive's to remind them to do a thorough and complete job. In my case, we all go out to eat dinner, lunch, breakfast together if we had a good day. if I'm in a foul mood because of a non-sense reason like someone forgot to do a walkway or clean up the last pass... no one gets fed. it helped me get quality up and then i write off the meal. Didn't take the guys long to figure out how to get a free meal or two.

our route sheets list every stop, and any special instructions for that client with a simple Start and Stop. We do nearly all residential, so it works for us, if we did more commercial I would include multiple start-stop lines for repeat trips. if we get a huge storm where we go around 2x we try to get the drivers a second set of sheets because they usually end up getting wet or coffee spilled on them at some point on the long shifts.

If you're handing them a template for them to fill in that they were at such and such's property, i don't blame them, i wouldn't write down all that info that should be stored on the computer and pre-printed.


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## hlntoiz (Jan 13, 2009)

I have a list and the only thing they need to do is write the time down they got there. That is it. I tell them the truth. It isn't to track their services it is to cover their butt if a customer calls and says we weren't there. Also it is a great way to cover your but on commercial properties. If you where there 4 times during a storm then it shows you where doing the best job possible. It has saved my butt more then once. 

Other incentives include feeding and beer like Matt said, I usually do that, but if we have a "lazy day" and crap didn't get done like I felt it should then no food or beer for them. 

Another incentive is a per storm bonus. They get their hrly wage plus Say $100 if EVERYONE did their job. That makes sure everyone is looking out for the other. You have to pay them by the hour but you don't have to give them bonuses.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

Workin 25/8;1406804 said:


> Please voice your opinion unless it involves replacing all of his equipment with tatras/mogs.


Well the Unimog or Tatra trucks won't help in this scenario. However, the problem of the worth ethic was noted very nicely in the essay "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" by Max Weber in 1904. Now, the example that Weber used was that of per-capitalist agricultural workers. The example was basically that if you paid workers 2 dollars (let's say for argument) per acre you might get 2.0 acres mowed for 4 dollars. However, if you increase this this 3 dollars per acre instead of getting 3 acres or more mowed the incentive only was to mow 1.5 acres to get the same 4 dollars. The idea is that if one can make a standard of living doing less than one will do less even though the incentive system would seem to indicate otherwise.

So the solution to this problem is usually not with more money alone. High rates of pay only help so much to cure the problem of finding people who will work effectively. The solution lies in creating incentives that create a greater attention to the benefits of working well. Essentially what I'm advocating is a more cooperative organization between labor and management. One that listens actually and helps to implement labor based solutions to many problems. This makes working more about the end itself than just receiving a pay check.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm really bummed the imported overweight underpowered behemoths aren't the solution. I was just starting to come around to the notion that they will fix every problem in the snow removal business.

Brian, why don't you start firing a couple guys. Maybe the rest will get the picture.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

2COR517;1407032 said:


> I'm really bummed the imported overweight underpowered behemoths aren't the solution. I was just starting to come around to the notion that they will fix every problem in the snow removal business.
> 
> Brian, why don't you start firing a couple guys. Maybe the rest will get the picture.


Maybe I'll buy them all unimog's or whatever they are for a take home vehicle. This thread kind of went a different way, other than this and a few minor things, these guys are decent but it's these little things that just cost me a total of 375 bucks in the whole 2 times we were out.


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

I have not been in the professional snow plowing business but I ran a maintenance organization for a large company for 33 years. Now I'm retired. My last job was as a labor relations representative for the company, as we were unionized. Hiring good personal is a problem with we very company whether small or large. My suggestion to most of you that are having employee problems is to set your expectations for expect each and everyone to meet them. If they don't meet your expectations. I suggest you reduce their hour pay until they do. I would never dock a persons pay or not pay them for work they performed but you could tell them they are not meeting the required standard for their jobs performance and reduce their hourly wage in the future until they do. This could reduce or eliminate your liability if one of your employees decided to take you to court for non payment of services rendered. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

Brian Young;1407039 said:


> Maybe I'll buy them all unimog's or whatever they are for a take home vehicle. This thread kind of went a different way, other than this and a few minor things, these guys are decent but it's these little things that just cost me a total of 375 bucks in the whole 2 times we were out.


Create a new work dynamic one that promotes the benefit of achieving specific goals. Firing people won't get you very far. In fact it can alienate you from your workforce.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

2COR517;1407032 said:


> I'm really bummed the imported overweight underpowered behemoths aren't the solution. I was just starting to come around to the notion that they will fix every problem in the snow removal business.
> 
> Brian, why don't you start firing a couple guys. Maybe the rest will get the picture.


The Unimog and Tatra trucks are not panaceas...


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## BOSS LAWN (Nov 6, 2011)

peteo1;1406588 said:


> I have one question about all of this: How much experience do your guys have and how much do you pay them (ballpark)? You get what you pay for.


2-4 years lawn care, 1-2 years snow removal. Pay starts at $10 per hour (payup) and goes up based on performance.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Rick547;1407054 said:


> I have not been in the professional snow plowing business but I ran a maintenance organization for a large company for 33 years. Now I'm retired. My last job was as a labor relations representative for the company, as we were unionized. Hiring good personal is a problem with we very company whether small or large. My suggestion to most of you that are having employee problems is to set your expectations for expect each and everyone to meet them. If they don't meet your expectations. I suggest you reduce their hour pay until they do. I would never dock a persons pay or not pay them for work they performed but you could tell them they are not meeting the required standard for their jobs performance and reduce their hourly wage in the future until they do. This could reduce or eliminate your liability if one of your employees decided to take you to court for non payment of services rendered.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


Thanks Rick, and it's not like I'm some fist slamming, screaming boss who demands perfection I actually like and get along with these guys very well but when a sidewalk guy calls me the other day and asks if we shovel the front door to a business......I mean really,lol And again NOT salting a lot thats clearly on the route sheet, I mean these are things I can't believe people forget to do. I have a new route sheet, one that was tested by my 13 and 5 year old, so if they get it........


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

This thread remained me of when I first went out on my own. I made up a sheet that had date and time I was at each place, It lasted about 3 plows because it kept throwing my plowing rhythm off by stopping and writing stuff down.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

grandview;1407073 said:


> This thread remained me of when I first went out on my own. I made up a sheet that had date and time I was at each place, It lasted about 3 plows because it kept throwing my plowing rhythm off by stopping and writing stuff down.


Well now they only need to write in the times, everything else is a check mark. One of the old time sheets was filled out with I think a paper clip,lol It was easier to read when I rubbed a pencil over it. It was cool, I felt like a spy.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

Brian Young;1407084 said:


> Well now they only need to write in the times, everything else is a check mark. One of the old time sheets was filled out with I think a paper clip,lol It was easier to read when I rubbed a pencil over it. It was cool, I felt like a spy.


The answer to your problem is technology.


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

Brian Young;1407066 said:


> Thanks Rick, and it's not like I'm some fist slamming, screaming boss who demands perfection I actually like and get along with these guys very well but when a sidewalk guy calls me the other day and asks if we shovel the front door to a business......I mean really,lol And again NOT salting a lot thats clearly on the route sheet, I mean these are things I can't believe people forget to do. I have a new route sheet, one that was tested by my 13 and 5 year old, so if they get it........


I understand you frustrations. I'm glad I no longer have to deal with them. I now plow snow for enjoyment. I do my kids and a few friends driveways. I take my time to make sure I do a good job and enjoy myself. I have a couple of people that are older than me in my neighborhood that I will do for nothing. Maybe I'm looking for those good deeds that will add up when my time on this earth will end. LOL!

Good luck with your employees and be fair but demand a good job. It is you reputation they are representing.


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## DodgeBlizzard (Nov 7, 2003)

Get a set of earbuds with a microphone so you can plug into your cell phone and still plow at the same time hands free. If you can't multi task, pull over and talk. Those few minutes will be well worth the time. Communicate with your guys. They can text you their times. Or you can call every hour at the top of the hour. Go over what they've done and where they're headed to next. If you just give them a sheet and send them on their merry way, they have too much freedom. If my guys cost me $350 bucks, then it's time to change what's being done. Since you have had meetings and it's obvious you can't change THEM, then you need to change what YOU'RE doing. After they think they're done, have them call you and you should have the same exact route sheet so you can go down that same list and mark YOUR sheet, so you can read it and you know exactly whats going on. Every evening (other then plowsite), I'm doing what I can to help minimize the problems you're having. I first use www.findlotsize.com and measure the square footage/acres of each lot, along with how many feet of sidewalks. I then go to google earth and save the satellite image. Then open that image up on the computer's paint program and outline what needs plowed in one color. Then outline shovel areas in a different color. Then put the customers name/address , a close landmark in case they forget where it's located, along with any special notes. Then I have ''one'' sheet of paper for us plow guys route, and the other side is shovel guys route. I will have them in order of how I want them done. This way I can call them and say what number property are you at? Then I run down the previous jobs and make sure they did not forget any areas. I have the same problem of guys not filling out the route sheets, myself included because I'm not only plowing, but thinking the whole time of what else needs done. I offer either a bonus or lunch after each storm if we don't get any phone calls and things get done efficiently. Instead of offering a bigger hourly rate, I think it's better to reward IF they do a good job. I try to give my guys a little more slack during plow season. The main reason is I can't afford to lose them. The other reason is because it's not the best job to have. You have to get up way early, work long hours, feel like crap for days after because of lack of sleep, not to mention working out in the worst elements. They don't own the business, so they're not going to give it all the attention to detail as you would. Good luck and I hope it snows soon so I can enjoy the same stress you're having.


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## BOSS LAWN (Nov 6, 2011)

DodgeBlizzard;1407144 said:


> I'm doing what I can to help minimize the problems you're having. I first use www.findlotsize.com and measure the square footage/acres of each lot, along with how many feet of sidewalks. I then go to google earth and save the satellite image. Then open that image up on the computer's paint program and outline what needs plowed in one color. Then outline shovel areas in a different color. Then put the customers name/address , a close landmark in case they forget where it's located, along with any special notes. Then I have ''one'' sheet of paper for us plow guys route, and the other side is shovel guys route. I will have them in order of how I want them done. This way I can call them and say what number property are you at? Then I run down the previous jobs and make sure they did not forget any areas.
> 
> They don't own the business, so they're not going to give it all the attention to detail as you would. Good luck and I hope it snows soon so I can enjoy the same stress you're having.


Thanks for the site, quite neat. Im using it from now on!ussmileyflag


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## DodgeBlizzard (Nov 7, 2003)

No problem. FYI: When you want to place markers that are inside the area you already have outlined, you first have to place it outside, then click and bring it into the area being measured.


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## KBTConst (Oct 25, 2009)

You can do what my wife does at her restaurant it never fails someone will punch in but not punch out on the time clock so they don't get paid until it is filled out correctly same thing applies here your not going to pay if you don't know if they did the work get the paper work filled out and get paid on the next pay period!


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## MadeintheShade (Aug 4, 2009)

BOSS LAWN;1407165 said:


> Thanks for the site, quite neat. Im using it from now on!ussmileyflag


ya me too, thats awesome


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

WIPensFan;1406702 said:


> Yes $10.00/hr is not appealing to most people these days, I'm starting guys at $13.00/hr to run blowers and do a minimal amount of shoveling. I still say $10.00/hr isn't bad for what you have to do: Wake up at 3:00am(what the hell else you got going at this time??), be coherent enough to start a snowblower, have enough schooling to operate a shovel, and then go to your part time or full time job somewhere else. You have to put your time in to advance in pay, just like any other job. Everybody wants it all right away.
> 
> Not only that, but in case you hadn't noticed, pricing for snow removal has tanked. It's harder for most companies to pay guys more than $15.00-20.00/hr no matter what job they're required to do. Bottom line is: NO MATTER WHAT YOU'RE BEING PAID, DO YOUR JOB THE BEST YOU CAN, IT WILL PAY OFF LATER ON. YOU WILL THEN HAVE MORE LEVERAGE TO ASK FOR MORE MONEY DOWN THE ROAD.


In case you havent noticed, sir, EVERYTHING has tanked. I for one am half way happy about it too but then again I dont rely on snow for my income. I do this more because I enjoy it than for the money. I get paid well enough to keep doing it so its a bonus. I guess I'm a little more fortunate than some since my main job is a well paying one but I feel for the guys who rely on this for their income, I remember those days. Oh and to clarify why I'm kinda happy about everything tanking, it is getting us back to the reality that you first have to earn your paycheck and second, you cant just go out and buy whatever the hell you want and worry about it later. The business side of it sucks since everyone's wallet is strained but the economy will right itself within the next 3-5 years I bet.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

TatraFan;1406988 said:


> ..... The solution lies in creating incentives that create a greater attention to the benefits of working well. .... This makes working more about the end itself than just receiving a pay check.


A couple of decent statements there, with some opportunities for you to explore Brian.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

2COR517;1407709 said:


> A couple of decent statements there, with some opportunities for you to explore Brian.


I definitely will, in fact as I was typing a response a bit ago I remembered an old boss, years ago buying all of us lunch after a long job and I remember everyones attitude went from lets get the hell outta here to a much more unified, happy one. We'll give it a try if it ever snows again this year.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

If you want something right, you have to do it yourself these days. Maybe you should clone yourself and ride along with them. LOL At least then the work would get done right!


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## azgard (Jan 17, 2011)

If the guy's you are using can't handle filling out a time in/out then you should seriously be questioning the intelligence or work ethic of your employee's. When you do a route you should have a good idea of how much time it should take. Make sure they know they aren't finished until they do every job on their sheet. They miss one fire them on the spot, they fudge number's fire them on the spot and in general keep an eye on any inconsistencies. Making a mistake can be one thing, but now owning up to it is a big issue I have.


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## show-n-go (Feb 5, 2009)

I wish the guy I plow for would give me any kind of help on the rt sheet. I sub for him but he gives me the same thing he gives his other guys, name and address then it says plow,salt walks or whatever..
I went through it and gps all the spots so I could do it more efficiently even though I'm paid hourly and then I programmed them all in my iPhone so that when I pull in it sends me a reminder of exactly what to do, when I m done I make a note on my phone. At the end of the day I put it all on his paperwork. There's plenty of free technology out there that can be used for checking in and out of locations. I use Siri for my reminders


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## palmtree907 (Sep 25, 2009)

Mybroute sheet has : Date, drivers name, address, time onsite, time off, and any special services ( shovel walk). I know how long each property takes becausevI've done them. The trucks gps hows where it's been, so I know wtf. And I hope my driver is reading this


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## palmtree907 (Sep 25, 2009)

hlntoiz;1406935 said:


> I have a list and the only thing they need to do is write the time down they got there. That is it. I tell them the truth. It isn't to track their services it is to cover their butt if a customer calls and says we weren't there. Also it is a great way to cover your but on commercial properties. If you where there 4 times during a storm then it shows you where doing the best job possible. It has saved my butt more then once.
> 
> Other incentives include feeding and beer like Matt said, I usually do that, but if we have a "lazy day" and crap didn't get done like I felt it should then no food or beer for them.
> 
> Another incentive is a per storm bonus. They get their hrly wage plus Say $100 if EVERYONE did their job. That makes sure everyone is looking out for the other. You have to pay them by the hour but you don't have to give them bonuses.


Thumbs up! This is what I do too.


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## bodaggin (Sep 23, 2011)

Old post but I figured I would chime in with a simple solution. It's an age old debate and downfall of hourly pay, and fortunately in a predictable service environment like this it can be easily solved. Piece work compensation is the answer and should be the core form of compensation for residential driveways. Commercial is different.

Introduce the model based off of an hourly rate. Physically go out with your workers on a routine snowfall and time the route. Drive them, and monitor them, and motivate them to work hard while making sure they do the job exactly as asked. While driving, make complete stops at stop signs, never drive over the speed limit and basically do a worst case TIME scenario for the work that needs to be done. Make sure they don`t slack, and work at a good pace. Time this route, and use your fair hourly rate for that amount of time. Whatever the total is, becomes the the payment per route for your employees from now on. Add a bonus structure--tiered if you wish--for excessive amounts of snow ($50 for 5-10 inch, $100 10-15 inch, $200 15-25 inch, etc. {example structure})

This form of payment incentivizes hard work and fast work. If they want to work slowly, that is fine, but it`s on their dime, not yours. If they are motivated by the incentive it means your business is more productive, and you are getting your clients done quicker. This makes your customers happier, and/or could open up more productive capacity to take on extra clients. 

This is completely legal so long as they aren`t going so slow that the hours they work and compensation ends up less than the minimum wage. If this is the case then you are required to subsidize the difference. 

Abuse to look out for:
-Going slowly to milk your minimum wage subsidy.
-Skipping out on duties to get done faster.
-Breaking road laws, blowing stop signs, lights, speeding etc.

Solution:
-3 strike rule. Assuming you will be hiring quality workers who have incentive to work hard, you will be paying them above minimum wage. If they require a subsidy 3 times because of slow work, they get the boot, no ifs ands or buts. Same goes to skipping duties. And I would even go a step further to say if you get a call back about missed duties, that was clearly made aware to the employees (not just customer ridiculousness) your strike goes on the entire crew's report. This will glue them like a team and promote the best quality work in the shortest amount of time.
-All traffic violations come off of the driver's cheque. This is a normal business practice. Don't worry about policing it, if you have a crew, they will tell you who was driving. But make it aware to everyone how the rules work so it isn't a surprise.

All in all it's an effective business compensation model, and now that I have away way too much info to possible competitors, I will stop writing.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Since this thread was brought up again, Ill chime in. My new route sheets are pretty basic, consisting of: Location, work done, time in/out. The shoveler on the crew (I run a shoveler with each plow guy) is in charge of making sure everything is all set. That way the plow can focus. Worked so far, but thats one storm.


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## bodaggin (Sep 23, 2011)

jhall22guitar;1447998 said:


> Since this thread was brought up again, Ill chime in. My new route sheets are pretty basic, consisting of: Location, work done, time in/out. The shoveler on the crew (I run a shoveler with each plow guy) is in charge of making sure everything is all set. That way the plow can focus. Worked so far, but thats one storm.


Question, why the time in and time out? Seems like a pointless process with no requirement. Wouldn't just printing the route sheet out in order, and using a highlighter for each stop as it's finished work? Why the time? I still don't understand. Is that because people are billing based on time?


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

I use it to see how efficient the crew is being. And if it is a time that seems a little ridiculous I go check the property to make sure its done right. Sometimes the guys would race through the jobs to get the shortest time in there possible, then I go check, and back they go!


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## NickT (Feb 1, 2011)

Subscribed


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## DodgeBlizzard (Nov 7, 2003)

bodaggin;1448002 said:


> Question, why the time in and time out? Seems like a pointless process with no requirement. Wouldn't just printing the route sheet out in order, and using a highlighter for each stop as it's finished work? Why the time? I still don't understand. Is that because people are billing based on time?


Recording time in and time out is also good for when customers call and say you were never there (we switched over to liquid salt this year). It's happened once this year for me. Not a problem when you can tell them exactly what time and exactly who was on the site.


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## bodaggin (Sep 23, 2011)

DodgeBlizzard;1448099 said:


> Recording time in and time out is also good for when customers call and say you were never there (we switched over to liquid salt this year). It's happened once this year for me. Not a problem when you can tell them exactly what time and exactly who was on the site.


But wouldn't a simple highlight or checkmark solve the problem quicker to make sure no one is missed? If everyone was serviced then any phone complaints would be "you missed this part that we agreed to", and then you would go back and do it if it was actually agreed to. They wouldn't just say "you never showed up". Plus, if a client makes a complaint, a business owner is obligated to have someone go out to service it regardless if your sheet says it was serviced or not. The level of documentation seems kind of redundant to me...


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

bodaggin;1448108 said:


> But wouldn't a simple highlight or checkmark solve the problem quicker to make sure no one is missed? If everyone was serviced then any phone complaints would be "you missed this part that we agreed to", and then you would go back and do it if it was actually agreed to. They wouldn't just say "you never showed up". Plus, if a client makes a complaint, a business owner is obligated to have someone go out to service it regardless if your sheet says it was serviced or not. The level of documentation seems kind of redundant to me...


Well you are correct, but a simple mistake can lead to that extra check mark on the spot you havent done yet, and then it never gets serviced. Then the customer calls, you argue, you go check, and BOOM its not done. By doing the time in/out you are able to also prove you were there because of the times in between for travel are not there. I feel if the client knows the time I was at each location they will have more proof that I was in fact there. (Of course i dont show them the exact address of other clients or their info. Just general area if they ask)


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## blmc5150 (Nov 10, 2010)

Brian Young;1406393 said:


> I've tried over the years to come up with an idiot proof route sheet, one where they won't forget customer's and specific services. Well I thought I came up with one last season, all it had was customer name, address, time in and time out. Now, how hard is that to write down? Well between the chicken scratch that you couldn't read and the missed times it was at times a fiasco. This year during our pre season AND a meeting we had a couple weeks ago you would have thought no one could read or write, missing times and forgetting to perform certain services at a few places and even forgetting to do customer's all together.....WTH! I would be a bit more understanding if we've been getting pounded but ummmmm no where near that! So now I've come up with another system, basically same thing except there is no writing involved except for times in and out AND whatever they "forget" to do is back charged to their paycheck. Yes I know some of you bleeding hearts will bash me for back charging them and say thats not fair, you can't do that bla,bla,bla. But ya know what? whats not fair is us as owner's putting up with stupidity and costing me 350.00 on the last little storm alone! I've tried to be nice, treat them professionally but once again the only thing they seem to understand is me being a P*&%K.


I too feel your pain. Our sheets sound similar. Some of my guys are pretty good at filling out everytime. My problem is that we do a lot of residential with a few lots sprinkled in each route. So it sucks to stop and fill out an in/out time 40 times for a driveway that takes 2 minutes. I've gotten to the point, which has worked well now, of having them sign in on there sheet every hour and checking off each place as they get it done. With the lots they fill out the in/out for each of those. That way if a customer does call, I at least have an hour window of when they were plowed, should it be an event where it continues to snow and they don't think they got done. that's been the easiest way I have found to do it, hell that's how I fill out my own sheet now. Good luck, thanks for the thread b/c it made me laugh and agree with most everyone on here.
Oh and the reason most new/younger guys can't write a time down anyway is b/c of the technology. There all used to the computer/texting/facebook/video chat/etc all that crap. They don't know what a pen/pencil and paper is. Or how to actually communicate to another human-being face to face. But that's another rant for another day.


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## bodaggin (Sep 23, 2011)

blmc5150;1448666 said:


> I too feel your pain. Our sheets sound similar. Some of my guys are pretty good at filling out everytime. My problem is that we do a lot of residential with a few lots sprinkled in each route. So it sucks to stop and fill out an in/out time 40 times for a driveway that takes 2 minutes. I've gotten to the point, which has worked well now, of having them sign in on there sheet every hour and checking off each place as they get it done. With the lots they fill out the in/out for each of those. That way if a customer does call, I at least have an hour window of when they were plowed, should it be an event where it continues to snow and they don't think they got done. that's been the easiest way I have found to do it, hell that's how I fill out my own sheet now. Good luck, thanks for the thread b/c it made me laugh and agree with most everyone on here.
> Oh and the reason most new/younger guys can't write a time down anyway is b/c of the technology. There all used to the computer/texting/facebook/video chat/etc all that crap. They don't know what a pen/pencil and paper is. Or how to actually communicate to another human-being face to face. But that's another rant for another day.


Technology is there to make your life easier. That's why we have it. The equipment on your truck is so you don't have to hand bomb the snow, it makes your life easier if you use the right technology. I'll let you guys in on a secret. Download "MyTime" onto your iPads (which I assume you all have). Punch in your route with addresses into the app and you can have it mapped, and simply hit one button and it will record a visit and mark time in. Simple and straight forward and no messy paperwork if you still insist on marking times. The amount of time to take your mitt off, grab the pen, check the time, write it down, and put your mitt back on, then doing it all over again when you get back in the vehicle is probably a minute. If you have 100 properties, that's 100 minutes. If you can do 6-10 drives an hour at $100 a month and you are at full capacity, it gives you room for $500-$1600 extra per month. Or, you could have your customers done 100 minutes sooner and save that wage expense, either way, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency!!

I still think it's redundant, because if they call and say you never came, and you have a recording that you did, what are you going to do, not go check? lol The customer is complaining, a good business is supposed to check. When you check, you listen to the complaint and see how it matches up with the agreement you had them sign and documented. Cater to the customer's complaint as a grace to them regardless if they are in line with the agreement or not. If either party is out of line with that agreement and a new deal can't be made, do as they ask, and then refund them for unused service and avoid wasting valuable time and business resource with that customer. If you in fact missed them, then you clear them out and offer some sort of consolation trinket or show of appreciation. Mistakes happen, an honest miss here and there is bound to happen. Take responsibility and move on, and the customers will understand and be grateful that the mistake was dealt with.

This entire process gives good service, and doesn't require time in, or out to be marked, which saves countless time and increases profits while decreasing headaches. I go a step further and post my route on my website and update my location every hour or 2 on a twitter embed into the website so they don't have to call me if they have questions. It avoids 40, 100, or 200 individual phone calls, and replaces it with 1 simple announcement. A little customer training is involved, but anyone can learn.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

I have thought about putting something like that on my website once I launch it. thats a great idea!


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## blmc5150 (Nov 10, 2010)

bodaggin;1448704 said:


> Technology is there to make your life easier. That's why we have it. The equipment on your truck is so you don't have to hand bomb the snow, it makes your life easier if you use the right technology. I'll let you guys in on a secret. Download "MyTime" onto your iPads (which I assume you all have). Punch in your route with addresses into the app and you can have it mapped, and simply hit one button and it will record a visit and mark time in. Simple and straight forward and no messy paperwork if you still insist on marking times. The amount of time to take your mitt off, grab the pen, check the time, write it down, and put your mitt back on, then doing it all over again when you get back in the vehicle is probably a minute. If you have 100 properties, that's 100 minutes. If you can do 6-10 drives an hour at $100 a month and you are at full capacity, it gives you room for $500-$1600 extra per month. Or, you could have your customers done 100 minutes sooner and save that wage expense, either way, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency!!
> 
> I still think it's redundant, because if they call and say you never came, and you have a recording that you did, what are you going to do, not go check? lol The customer is complaining, a good business is supposed to check. When you check, you listen to the complaint and see how it matches up with the agreement you had them sign and documented. Cater to the customer's complaint as a grace to them regardless if they are in line with the agreement or not. If either party is out of line with that agreement and a new deal can't be made, do as they ask, and then refund them for unused service and avoid wasting valuable time and business resource with that customer. If you in fact missed them, then you clear them out and offer some sort of consolation trinket or show of appreciation. Mistakes happen, an honest miss here and there is bound to happen. Take responsibility and move on, and the customers will understand and be grateful that the mistake was dealt with.
> 
> This entire process gives good service, and doesn't require time in, or out to be marked, which saves countless time and increases profits while decreasing headaches. I go a step further and post my route on my website and update my location every hour or 2 on a twitter embed into the website so they don't have to call me if they have questions. It avoids 40, 100, or 200 individual phone calls, and replaces it with 1 simple announcement. A little customer training is involved, but anyone can learn.


Never said I had a problem with technology, and do cater to my customers. Ain't my first rodeo. I was just agreeing with the thread starter and letting him know he's not alone in this technologically advanced world by still using the ancient pen and paper.


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## bodaggin (Sep 23, 2011)

blmc5150;1448732 said:


> Never said I had a problem with technology, and do cater to my customers. Ain't my first rodeo. I was just agreeing with the thread starter and letting him know he's not alone in this technologically advanced world by still using the ancient pen and paper.


I realized that, part of the post was misdirected at you. My apologies for that! How many residentials do you have? I notice you have quite a bit of equipment, just curious. Not a loaded question either.


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## blmc5150 (Nov 10, 2010)

bodaggin;1448741 said:


> I realized that, part of the post was misdirected at you. My apologies for that! How many residentials do you have? I notice you have quite a bit of equipment, just curious. Not a loaded question either.


No offense taken. I can appreciate what you can do w/ tech. That's what we're all on here for anyway right? See how everyone else does it, get questions asked, and vent. As for our work load:
Close to 200 resi. 7 private roads. 4 condo assoc., about 20 commercial that range from small offices to a 5 acre site. Not a ton, but we're spread over a pretty big area so I usually have 2 trucks work towards eachother to help out should one fall behind. 4 shoveling crews doing the condos and a few commercials. Most resi's around here shovel their own, so do a lot of offices.


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## bodaggin (Sep 23, 2011)

blmc5150;1448759 said:


> No offense taken. I can appreciate what you can do w/ tech. That's what we're all on here for anyway right? See how everyone else does it, get questions asked, and vent. As for our work load:
> Close to 200 resi. 7 private roads. 4 condo assoc., about 20 commercial that range from small offices to a 5 acre site. Not a ton, but we're spread over a pretty big area so I usually have 2 trucks work towards eachother to help out should one fall behind. 4 shoveling crews doing the condos and a few commercials. Most resi's around here shovel their own, so do a lot of offices.


Awesome, very interesting to know. Hope it's a good year for you.


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