# Little help with employee situation



## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

Ok, here's the story. I hired a full-time guy about a month ago mainly for mowing, but wherever else I need to put him. He's been doing alright, few little problems; showing up late a few times, taking a long lunch break, etc. He use to work for a local construction company where he quit and came over to me. He put in his two weeks and the owner told him to grab his stuff and go then. So he did. I dont know the whole story, but he owes the constr. co. owner $950 for something. The owner didnt give him his last week's paycheck being around $500. (Ok, in my eyes you still owe him $450) The owner had started calling him leaving him messages on his phone saying he was going to find him and get his money one way or another, etc. You all know the deal. Well, my employees leave one morning from the shop and head to grab something to drink at the gas station and then go out and cut. This constr. co. owner comes to MY shop and asks me if this guy works for me and says he owes him money. I know the owner and I talked to him about and just told him that it's between him and the other guy and it will NOT interupt my business. Well, he leaves and finds them at the gas station. Well the owner goes in to gas station, drags this guy into the parking lot and beat the piss outa him. My other employee gets in the middle and trys to separate them and he gets hit by the constr. co. owner. Then the guy hears the sirens from the squad cars since the gas station worker called 911 and he leaves hitting the gas station worker with his van. My employee is taken by ambulance to the hospital and hasnt worked in 1.5 weeks now due to the doctors saying he cant. (Concussion) Anyways, the owner is caught a couple blocks away and arrested for 3 counts of Aggravated Battery, a felony in Illinois. Just so happens the arresting officer is a guy I use to work for in high school part time and we are just finishing a $10K landscape install at his house. HAHA My question is that I dont need this type of publicity for my business, the headache, lost time and resources, etc. My employee should have taken care of this outside of work so it didnt interfere with work. I told him that. I know he couldnt do anything about the events of that day but taking care of his personal issues outside of work would have. Especially people in Illinois, what can I do about this with my employee? I would like to fire him but want to make sure it's cool first. Any help is appreciated!


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## Milwaukee (Dec 28, 2007)

Wow sound owner is big than I thought. Do you have pic of his? How tall or weight.

That stuff I would tell owner I won't have you mess my worker or business. i will call police on you.

I don't know but it your decision. 

This remember me of ******* Detroit's mayor best friend Ferguson who did same thing.


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

With your employee showing up late & the extended lunch breaks he takes is YOUR call for setting the rules right! If hes told, im sure he'll listen. As for the unfortunate incident that happened, Your right, it should have been between him & the other contractor outside of work. However, that contractor cause you headache & loss of one employee that most likely was a productive person. Stick up for your employee. As for the reason behind this ordeal, I hope it's not Drug related between him & the contractor. If it were, then I would re-think about keeping this particular employee.


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

It's not drug related I know that. He wouldnt work for me if he was using. All of my part time employees are actually police officers so...and i'm a reserve deputy for the sheriffs office. I'm just looking at it from a legal standpoint.


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## 06HD BOSS (Nov 28, 2005)

thats why i dont give lunch or coffee breaks lol  But in all honestly if you have a legit reason for termination and can afford to be 1 guy down (you have been for 1.5 weeks) then do it. Its tough firing someone who now has a medical "problem". Off the top of my head i cant think of any reason to offer, other then un-needed drama and bs.


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

Well thats my problem....he is all over town, paintballing, swimming, etc. nothing seems to be disrupted except work and he claims he wants to work but his doctor wont let him, which I do believe. But I dont think he should be out doing what he is doing.


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## Zodiac (Jul 9, 2008)

Getting rid of someone that has an honest medical reason, even if the guy is all over town paintballing or whatever else, is illegal. Your state has a statue of limitations though. And you might want to look into that, you can hold the job for the guy for whatever reason until that statue is up. 

First, you need to see proof the guy is off of work because his doctor says so, legal documentation of this should be available and you should keep copies. 

If you fire the guy because he can't work, because he was at work, and got beat up, you're gonna get sued. 

Yes the guy should handle his personal problems on his own time, and not involved your business, but it happened, and it happened while he was on the clock. I'd review your insurance policy too. Because even though someone else injured him, he might be able to go after your insurance company.


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## ABES (Jun 10, 2007)

I wouldnt fire him personally if he works hard and is reliable. I too hate it when people bring all there personal BS into work it happens everywhere though.


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## gkm (Nov 6, 2004)

I would run it pass your attorney first to get his feed back on it You don't want any thing to pop up later! good luck


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

Run it by an attorney, or dept of labor & insurance co. It can get complicated as to due with how many employees you have, etc Cover your butt, it is better to spend $ 200 for an hour of an attorneys time than god know how much + your time later.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Unfortunate situation. You shouldn't fire him yet based on your info. Do you have an employee manual spelling out his responsibilities? If not get to work on creating one. Your manual can create measurables and expectations that can and will protect you and your business from this type of nonsense.

This situation appears to be unavoidable, but you can most certainly terminate his employment for fighting if it's company policy not to do so, no matter the circumstances.

Being tardy can end his employment if it's detailed firmly enough in your manual. 

Do not let him come back to work without a full release (with no restrictions) from the treating doctor.


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## gkm (Nov 6, 2004)

that's a good point the more documents you have the better you will be able to protect yourself


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

Employee manual is already done, he has one. I already advised him that if he is late one other time, he will be terminated.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

NoFearDeere;573525 said:


> Employee manual is already done, he has one. I already advised him that if he is late one other time, he will be terminated.


Advised schlemised.............if you didn't write him up and have him sign it along with what your intentions will be the next time he does it, you have what equates to squat.

Did you make him sign a sheet that is in his employee file that acknowledges he "read, understood and agreed" with the terms and expectations of the company policy?

If not, you have more squat.

If he gets upset with his firing, there are plenty of a-hole attorneys that are motivated to go after employers for what they will consider an unjust termination. With you being in law enforcement, it's safe for me to say that you have more court time than I.............this burden will be on your shoulders should it go to this length. You will want (and need) all the written documentation you can get your hands on.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

TCLA;573540 said:


> Advised schlemised.............if you didn't write him up and have him sign it along with what your intentions will be the next time he does it, you have what equates to squat.
> 
> Did you make him sign a sheet that is in his employee file that acknowledges he "read, understood and agreed" with the terms and expectations of the company policy?
> 
> ...


While this is true, it also depends on whether IL is an at-will state. Meaning they are employed by you at your will, and you can fire for any reason or none. As long as he isn't a protected class-minority, handicapped, etc, you shouldn't have any issues.

But I would also run it by your attorney.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;573544 said:


> While this is true, it also depends on whether IL is an at-will state. Meaning they are employed by you at your will, and you can fire for any reason or none. As long as he isn't a protected class-minority, handicapped, etc, you shouldn't have any issues.
> 
> But I would also run it by your attorney.


The judge will determine if you have issues. As you know Mark we are an "at will" state here, and we _can_ fire for cause............in theory. I suppose I could fire you "cause" your lazy, slow, smelly, etc. but it doesn't mean it was justified. If you can't show a history of behavior and warnings with expectations to change the behavior, you won't have much of a leg to stand on. I would make sure you have plenty of ammunition with you should this go to court.

I will ditto the running it by your attorney (even though I don't like them). :salute:


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## Zodiac (Jul 9, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;573544 said:


> While this is true, it also depends on whether IL is an at-will state. Meaning they are employed by you at your will, and you can fire for any reason or none. As long as he isn't a protected class-minority, handicapped, etc, you shouldn't have any issues.
> 
> But I would also run it by your attorney.


I don't believe Illinois is an "at-will" state, Illinois residents correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they have to have a reason to get rid of you.

Wisconsin is an at will state, they don't need a reason.


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## nicksplowing (Oct 5, 2005)

*for a small fee a travel expenses this can be takin care of *

P.S. AND THE KEYS TO YOUR BACKHOE


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

IL is an At-will state. However, he described a very complicated situation. Although he can terminate or end his working obligations there are other angles. IL is one of the very top 3 in lawsuits too. He needs to consider this employee will sue the guys who beat him up, the previous employer for coming to his new employment and saying bad stuff, the unemployment office, his current employer, etc. He needs to be concerned about workers comp and a lawsuit from that too.

Best bet ... talk to no one else but, a lawyer.


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## Dodge Plow Pwr (Dec 7, 2007)

Yes Illinois is an at will state. You can terminate for any reason you feel is right. If the business slows down for a week or if he violates ANY portion of the hand book for any reason not given permission to do. Also, if you go the route to write him up do make sure you make him sign something that says what was done wronge. Verble warnings mean nothing to unemployment office, trust me. I have fought 3 people in the last 10 years on unemployment, the only one that got it was never written up only verble warnings. I always do all diciplines in writting.
Just my $.02.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

IL , is a work at will state, FACT 

but as much as you would like to fire him... is it worth the risk with every thing that happened

keep it simple. for get about the worker , let him come back to work as soon as he can. when he does write him up, for failure to keep personal matters out of the work place. 3 writes ups and ...you have no problem, ... look at it this way , maybe he will straighten up, ..

your worried about bad reputation.... consider this.. doesnt matter if you fire him, your name is going to come up, because he was workign for you at the time... in fact if you do fire him,,, now all the news pappers are going to say : his EX employeer, and " lost his job" 

I would stick up for the guy , as it will look on the news he is the victum, and the "good guy " which make you look not so bad... if you fire him... you just kicked a guy while he was down, thats not too cool in the media

so get the first write up when he comes back to work, make sure to notate that you gave him verbal warnings as well. withhold his paycheck until he signs it. he will be late 1 day , that will make number 2

after every thing cools down, im sure you can find number 3 to let him go if needed

i wouldnt worry about it.... if you or your insurance company has to cover, ANY costs, including time off of work ... then you have grounds to sue the the "owner" i would start by filiing anyway... get your foot in the door before everyone else. loss of income... if you can prove an hourly rate that you would have charged for that emplyee while off of work, plus all Time and materials related to this matter. give it to your attorny, dont wait around. If your spending time, and gas, dealing with it, plus lost labor hours, i would bill him for it , at your normal rate.


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## Sealer (Dec 15, 2007)

I don't get it. How can you write this guy up for not keeping personal matters out of the work place? His ex-boss pursued and beat him. How could he have controlled that? Sure he owed him money. Does he have it to pay him back? Maybe, maybe not. That still doesn't give the guy the right to beat the crap out of him. Blame the ex-boss. Go after him, sue him for lost wages that your employee isn't making for you, and anything your insurance pays out!

On the other hand, you should have been given something by your employee from his doctor stating that he can't work. If not, then ask for it. If you want to let him go, use the reasons you already listed, late for work, long lunch breaks, etc., Not for getting beat up on company time!


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Sealer;574334 said:


> On the other hand, you should have been given something by your employee from his doctor stating that he can't work. If not, then ask for it. If you want to let him go, use the reasons you already listed, late for work, long lunch breaks, etc., Not for getting beat up on company time!


the problem is, because he didnt write him up in the first place, proveing , that being late for work , and long lunch breaks, is the reason , can be hard to prove. If you fire a guy becuase he got injured while on your work clock , he can sue you for it

another reason, if you fire him now, u might not be able to sue that owner, for lost income, ... because you fired him anyway, and their fore doesnt work for you anylonger. you cant sue for loss income , on a worker that no longer is employeed by you.

you would be much better to leave him on your staff, and sue the owner for all the problems, your surely gonna get more out him, than your worker

is writing him up for not keeping personal stuff out of the work place- a problem ? no , i think its a fair write up. he couldnt control what happened that day, but it shouldnt have gotten to that point. Honestly , who really cares why your writing him up, the fact is that its simply a good enough reason for it. 3 stricks and your out... at least now you have strick 1 against him if you do.. this keeps your options open to you.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

BUMP,, what ever happened with this situation?


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

Well, we have slowed down a little bit so he is layed off for the time being. Just this week. The monsoon we are getting is going to put us in high gear again but he will be getting terminated in a week or so. He failed to pick up trash at a property we do and instead mulched it into a thousand pieces that I had to pick up, hasnt been cleaning out his truck as my employee manual states and everyone else does, and has been abusing equipment on a regular basis.


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## ABES (Jun 10, 2007)

NoFearDeere;578356 said:


> Well, we have slowed down a little bit so he is layed off for the time being. Just this week. The monsoon we are getting is going to put us in high gear again but he will be getting terminated in a week or so. He failed to pick up trash at a property we do and instead mulched it into a thousand pieces that I had to pick up, hasnt been cleaning out his truck as my employee manual states and everyone else does, and has been abusing equipment on a regular basis.


lol he sounds like all the guys that I work with.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

show him the door . , just make sure you write him up to play it safe


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

He has already recieved two written forms


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

good call, now relax and have a cold one


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

Yeah, and i'm gonna have to here soon. haha


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## snowman3357 (Sep 5, 2008)

I have multiple answers for you...since i have been in your shoes on more the one occasion. If you wanted to keep your employee because he was a good employee and you needed him then i would say stick by his side and let him know that you will be there for him. Most likely he is setting himself up so he can sue the contractor civilly. I actually am being sued right now because an ex employee thought he should recieve a 2 week vacation after only working 1 week and I had fired him for non-performance. he and his friend came into my office during a snowstorm in Feb and demanded his vacation pay. there was many other employees around so i told my ex eployee that he needs to make an appointment during normal business hours. his friend satrted getting mouthy so i asked them both to leave. they both refused to leave without a check so i walked around the glass partition to demand they leave and his friend pushed me, after i gave him a beating, i called the police and made a report. they made a report out and i left it like that. 4 months later i get a visit from the police saying i was under arrest for battery. i sat for 6 hours, posted ond and got an attourney. he is trying to sue me civily. there are lots of scumbags out here. be carefull and check with an attourney.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

I just got a letter from my insurance company saying that they were adding a small fee to my policy to cover lawyers fees if an employee sues for being fired or anything else. Check with your insurance company maybe your lawyer fees will be covered.


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