# Seasonal contract



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I got a seasonal with a large factory, Yesterday we had a film of white stuff. He called me in the morning he wanted salt, Performed service. This morning we had about 1/2 inch freezing rain performed salt spreading again.

We are looking at 45 to 50 degrees today. While I'm down there he's like why did you not plow, I said we have a 2'' trigger in are contract and you have a 1/2'' which I salted and salt was visible.

I bid this contract both ways per trip and per season. He said you have not plowed this once yet. I said if this was per trip you would of cried if it would of cost you 1k to plow and salt. He walks away and sez it don't matter it's going to melt anyways. Then sez nice job spreading.

Just another head of maintenance I will have to straighten out. It's been salted good and no chance of hard pack. I seen some guys plowing, I could not see it with salt. Anybody think I was unreasonable?


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

So nothing under 2 inches no salt no calcium?
If they signed that that's crazy in my area maybe your area is different


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I'm pretty sure if you plow 10 times already he wouldn't be offering you more money.


----------



## Turbs3000 (Feb 20, 2015)

ponyboy;2084239 said:


> So nothing under 2 inches no salt no calcium?
> If they signed that that's crazy in my area maybe your area is different


I think he is saying plowing has a 2" trigger, so he salted and did not plow. That's the same way our per occur and seasonal's work and would never have plowed with 1/2".

Things like this are the nature of the seasonal beast. in a few months we will have to remind our customers that while we have been light on snow this year, last year was above average.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

But shouldn't he have it all spelled out salting from 1/2 inch then plow 
My area we have to have black top showing as soon storm is over 
We could never leave 2 inches


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Turbs3000;2084248 said:


> I think he is saying plowing has a 2" trigger, so he salted and did not plow. That's the same way our per occur and seasonal's work and would never have plowed with 1/2".
> 
> Things like this are the nature of the seasonal beast. in a few months we will have to remind our customers that while we have been light on snow this year, last year was above average.


Exactly, This is how the contract states, I would of probably plowed a 1 1/2 inch but not 1/2 inch. I think he was feeling me out.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2084250 said:


> But shouldn't he have it all spelled out salting from 1/2 inch then plow
> My area we have to have black top showing as soon storm is over
> We could never leave 2 inches


It is spelled out, Anything under 2'' no plowing just salt.The blacktop is showing just holding water from the 1/2 inch of freezing rain.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Same conditions as here and we went out and scraped sucks but we had to do it 
It will be 40 outside in 3 hours no ice here just slush but again my area picky people 
I feel 2 inches is to high of a plowing trigger should be 1 to 1.5 inches max but most people want cheapest contract and don't understand that this little slush is just a pain and they need to deal with it


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

grandview;2084243 said:


> I'm pretty sure if you plow 10 times already he wouldn't be offering you more money.


I know he just got to me a little, I was actually glad to go do something, I can't work if there is no snow.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Yeah but honestly I would feel like I'm loosing money because it's not what contract states 
Who's contract is it yours or theirs
If mine I would plow if theirs I might not


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

The guy is a little frustrated, he has been paying out money for nothing and when you do get something his parking lot is not clear. I think the trigger is a little high, its really hard to melt 1 3/4 " of snow especially after it gets colder with no sun.


----------



## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

sounds like the maintenance guy is just a dip****


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Great thread! Lot's of good info here. I like to think I have a good grasp of plowing/salting, but it never hurts to pick up some more knowledge from others experiences. For me, especially, in explaining it to customers. Communication is so important. So many variables to factor into: Do I plow? 0r salt? Do I need to scrape the slush? Or will it melt? What's the forecast? sun,clouds, temp?


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2084279 said:


> The guy is a little frustrated, he has been paying out money for nothing and when you do get something his parking lot is not clear. I think the trigger is a little high, its really hard to melt 1 3/4 " of snow especially after it gets colder with no sun.


I agree and would of been plowing at 1 1/2 inches even if the contract states 2''. Not 1/2 inch of freezing rain, What does he have to be frustrated about? This job was bid both ways seasonal and trip. You can't have it both ways.

There's nothing but a little slush and water. You could not hard pack it if you tried. It's been salted twice for 3/4 inch of freezing rain between yesterday and today. It's 40 degree now predicting to make 45 50 today and thur to Thursday.

We got idiots buy trip here want 3''. But don't cry about hard pack. Just salt present. Remember the 2'' trigger was there request not mine and knew on seasonal I would have to plow at 1 1/2 inch to keep control of job.

My actual question was if anybody thought I was unreasonable about not plowing it for him. Meaning they paid out 2 large checks and have received no service. 2 upper threads straighten me out on that so far. Still open to opinion.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

If say you are correct but it you want to keep it for next year suck it up and plow it


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

FredG;2084303 said:


> I agree and would of been plowing at 1 1/2 inches even if the contract states 2''. Not 1/2 inch of freezing rain, What does he have to be frustrated about? This job was bid both ways seasonal and trip. You can't have it both ways.
> 
> There's nothing but a little slush and water. You could not hard pack it if you tried. It's been salted twice for 3/4 inch of freezing rain between yesterday and today. It's 40 degree now predicting to make 45 50 today and thur to Thursday.
> 
> ...


Just remember 1/2" of freezing rain is equal to approx. 5 to 6" of snow so it takes that much more salt to melt it. You put salt down it starts to melt gets deluted with water and wont work. Just keep that in mind when trying to salt ice or sleet.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jonniesmooth;2084286 said:


> Great thread! Lot's of good info here. I like to think I have a good grasp of plowing/salting, but it never hurts to pick up some more knowledge from others experiences. For me, especially, in explaining it to customers. Communication is so important. So many variables to factor into: Do I plow? 0r salt? Do I need to scrape the slush? Or will it melt? What's the forecast? sun,clouds, temp?


Always can learn something, I'm just want opinions on what they would have done with a 1/2 inch of freezing rain. About 1 yard of salt does a nice job under these weather conditions. They paid out two nice checks received no service. Just wondering if I should of been a nice guy and threw him a bone. I made my decision.

The communication with him is good. He likes to show authority from what I here from the mechanics working in there. He's been good with me.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2084271 said:


> Yeah but honestly I would feel like I'm loosing money because it's not what contract states
> Who's contract is it yours or theirs
> If mine I would plow if theirs I might not


Originally it was my contract, When it went to there legal dept. It was worded a little different but no changes or nothing I would not agree with. I guess you would say theirs.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

It's raining like a cow pissing on a flat rock, It's going away in front of my office and the city did not salt as I'm on a side street not much traffic.


----------



## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Buy him a bottle and send him back to boiler room! Unless his name is on check doesn't matter what he wants.Sounds like a typical condo job,everyone is a plow expert!


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

leigh;2084326 said:


> Buy him a bottle and send him back to boiler room! Unless his name is on check doesn't matter what he wants.Sounds like a typical condo job,everyone is a plow expert!


He is my main contact, His name is on nothing, LoL, He tried to plow himself did not work that's when I was invited to bid. It really is a simple job with the exception of drifting in back, Not scared he is he keeps reminding me of it.

I think he's a little ashamed because he could not handle it. Head of maintenance is his title. He will be alright when he learns to let me handle the snow. He failed.


----------



## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

In my opinion, you handled it correctly. You are the plow expert, not him. You don't need him telling you how to do your job any more than he needs you telling him how to do his. You performed the services that your years of experience and expertise have told you will take care of the problem. As long as it wasn't slick, you did what needed to be done. Now as others have said, you're melting a lot of liquid, so it would dilute and depending on overnight temps, may refreeze, but you said forecast was for temps in the 50's, so not likely. As you eluded to, he just wanted to throw his weight around and "be in charge".


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Went back after lunch drained off pretty good except for some ponds in the blacktop. Two retention pounds on property and the catch basin are full and not letting the water out into retention ponds.

Took pictures of all of the ponds and basins being full. Maybe I will get some work out of this.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2084308 said:


> Just remember 1/2" of freezing rain is equal to approx. 5 to 6" of snow so it takes that much more salt to melt it. You put salt down it starts to melt gets deluted with water and wont work. Just keep that in mind when trying to salt ice or sleet.


Yes I went by a couple of spots that were plowed and the snow looked like a big pile of boulders, Heavy stuff.


----------



## redclifford (Aug 10, 2015)

ponyboy;2084306 said:


> If say you are correct but it you want to keep it for next year suck it up and plow it


There's no way I'd ever plow 1/2 of freezing rain to keep a customer. That just sounds silly to me. More or less just spoiling the customer and making them have unreasonable expectations when there not paying for that kind of service.

To me it would be a waste of my time and money plowing that, let alone the beating up your truck or machine to plow 1/2 of freezing rain.

Don't get me wrong, if the customer is paying for that kind of service then yes plow the 1/2 of freezing rain but if not salt it and move on to the next


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

redclifford;2084827 said:


> There's no way I'd ever plow 1/2 of freezing rain to keep a customer. That just sounds silly to me. More or less just spoiling the customer and making them have unreasonable expectations when there not paying for that kind of service.
> 
> To me it would be a waste of my time and money plowing that, let alone the beating up your truck or machine to plow 1/2 of freezing rain.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, if the customer is paying for that kind of service then yes plow the 1/2 of freezing rain but if not salt it and move on to the next


But the customer is expecting a clear parking lot. You cant just throw some salt down and move on. One inch of rain is equal to 12 inches of snow so its like your trying to melt 6 inches of snow with salt. The salt will only melt so much before it dilutes to the point it dont work.


----------



## redclifford (Aug 10, 2015)

I understand that, and for my accounts we plow the 1/2 because there paying for that level of service. its a catch 22 when it comes down to what the contract states, it should be worded into the contract IMO


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

redclifford;2084845 said:


> I understand that, and for my accounts we plow the 1/2 because there paying for that level of service. its a catch 22 when it comes down to what the contract states, it should be worded into the contract IMO


My point is it maybe more cost effective to plow then to salt 4 times. You cant have ice in the parking lot and one attempt to melt 1/2" is not good enough.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Again my area wants black top after storm period


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

redclifford;2084827 said:


> There's no way I'd ever plow 1/2 of freezing rain to keep a customer. That just sounds silly to me. More or less just spoiling the customer and making them have unreasonable expectations when there not paying for that kind of service.
> 
> To me it would be a waste of my time and money plowing that, let alone the beating up your truck or machine to plow 1/2 of freezing rain.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, if the customer is paying for that kind of service then yes plow the 1/2 of freezing rain but if not salt it and move on to the next


I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that you've never experienced a half inch of ice\freezing rain. You can double your application rate and it won't melt the ice.

I hate it, but I've plowed a half inch of sleet or freezing rain because that's what you have to do.

Having said that, it depends on the current weather and forecast. With temps above freezing or in the forecast, along with warmer ground temps, I probably wouldn't plow it either, just salt. But if the temps are going to drop after a freezing rain\ice event, I most certainly will plow a half inch of sleet or freezing rain.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2084840 said:


> But the customer is expecting a clear parking lot. You cant just throw some salt down and move on. One inch of rain is equal to 12 inches of snow so its like your trying to melt 6 inches of snow with salt. The salt will only melt so much before it dilutes to the point it dont work.


Not for nothing the contract states 2'' trigger. Reviewed contract last night, Salt on request of the company, It's seasonal so I salt without request. This all boils down to clients asking for minimal service for cheapest price than expecting A1 service without it in the contract or having any clue what trigger etc. to know what it takes to keep lot free of snow and ice.

Like I said maybe I should of been the nice guy and cleaned him up. This is why I started this post, All opinions appreciated. The thing that gets me is non of the other big factory's and trucking terminals in that area were not even salted. Whats even stranger at the end of the day all lots looked the same.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG;2084873 said:


> Not for nothing the contract states 2'' trigger. Reviewed contract last night, Salt on request of the company, It's seasonal so I salt without request. This all boils down to clients asking for minimal service for cheapest price than expecting A1 service without it in the contract or having any clue what trigger etc. to know what it takes to keep lot free of snow and ice.
> 
> Like I said maybe I should of been the nice guy and cleaned him up. This is why I started this post, All opinions appreciated. The thing that gets me is non of the other big factory's and trucking terminals in that area were not even salted. Whats even stranger at the end of the day all lots looked the same.


Based on what you've said about conditions and the forecast, pretty sure I wouldn't have either.

But, it doesn't matter what it looked like at the end of the day, it matters what it looks like first thing.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

FredG;2084873 said:


> Not for nothing the contract states 2'' trigger. Reviewed contract last night, Salt on request of the company, It's seasonal so I salt without request. This all boils down to clients asking for minimal service for cheapest price than expecting A1 service without it in the contract or having any clue what trigger etc. to know what it takes to keep lot free of snow and ice.
> 
> That's what I said
> Best service at cheapest price so now you decide stick to letter of contract and possible lose for next year or go above and beyond your contract and possibly sign them to a 3-5 year contract
> Only you know if they are worth it


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2084862 said:


> I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that you've never experienced a half inch of ice\freezing rain. You can double your application rate and it won't melt the ice.
> 
> I hate it, but I've plowed a half inch of sleet or freezing rain because that's what you have to do.
> 
> Having said that, it depends on the current weather and forecast. With temps above freezing or in the forecast, along with warmer ground temps, I probably wouldn't plow it either, just salt. But if the temps are going to drop after a freezing rain\ice event, I most certainly will plow a half inch of sleet or freezing rain.


LoL, No never seen any freezing rain. Just sat in the house for 3 days without power when the freezing rain took down all the utilitys and everything was closed and could not get out of your neighborhood because of tree limbs and utility poles down.

I do understand the temp thing, It got to 48 yesterday and is 40 right now. Thanks for your opinion.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2084877 said:


> Based on what you've said about conditions and the forecast, pretty sure I wouldn't have either.
> 
> But, it doesn't matter what it looked like at the end of the day, it matters what it looks like first thing.


I agree on what it looks like at the end of the day, My decision was based on the warm weather for that day. This so called head of maintenance is one who likes to show authority and try to muscle you around a little. I don't play in the sand box good, and tell you how to do your job right or wrong.

Keep in mind he attempted this snow service himself but failed.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2084878 said:


> FredG;2084873 said:
> 
> 
> > Not for nothing the contract states 2'' trigger. Reviewed contract last night, Salt on request of the company, It's seasonal so I salt without request. This all boils down to clients asking for minimal service for cheapest price than expecting A1 service without it in the contract or having any clue what trigger etc. to know what it takes to keep lot free of snow and ice.
> ...


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2084878 said:


> FredG;2084873 said:
> 
> 
> > Not for nothing the contract states 2'' trigger. Reviewed contract last night, Salt on request of the company, It's seasonal so I salt without request. This all boils down to clients asking for minimal service for cheapest price than expecting A1 service without it in the contract or having any clue what trigger etc. to know what it takes to keep lot free of snow and ice.
> ...


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG;2084883 said:


> LoL, No never seen any freezing rain. Just sat in the house for 3 days without power when the freezing rain took down all the utilitys and everything was closed and could not get out of your neighborhood because of tree limbs and utility poles down.
> 
> I do understand the temp thing, It got to 48 yesterday and is 40 right now. Thanks for your opinion.


I was talking to the guy that said he wouldn't plow a half inch of ice to keep a customer.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2084922 said:


> I was talking to the guy that said he wouldn't plow a half inch of ice to keep a customer.


My Bad


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

*we got 1/2" early this morning*



FredG;2084873 said:


> Not for nothing the contract states 2'' trigger. Reviewed contract last night, Salt on request of the company, It's seasonal so I salt without request. This all boils down to clients asking for minimal service for cheapest price than expecting A1 service without it in the contract or having any clue what trigger etc. to know what it takes to keep lot free of snow and ice.
> 
> Like I said maybe I should of been the nice guy and cleaned him up. This is why I started this post, All opinions appreciated. The thing that gets me is non of the other big factory's and trucking terminals in that area were not even salted. Whats even stranger at the end of the day all lots looked the same.


Forecast was for <1" overnight, up at 2 a.m., no snow. Up at 4:45 (normal time for me) snowing, about 3/8" on the ground. Forecast is for it to quit by 10 a.m.
So off I go and do my 1/2" accounts, the businesses that will be opening at 7-8 a.m. plow and salt, decide to wait till after 9 a.m. to do my apts., less traffic etc. and the snow will be done. We ended up with +/- 1"

It's 17* and amazingly sunny, the salt is doing it's thing, life is good.

I didn't see another contractor out doing any other accounts,anywhere.
Ooops, I did see one.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jonniesmooth;2085028 said:


> Forecast was for <1" overnight, up at 2 a.m., no snow. Up at 4:45 (normal time for me) snowing, about 3/8" on the ground. Forecast is for it to quit by 10 a.m.
> So off I go and do my 1/2" accounts, the businesses that will be opening at 7-8 a.m. plow and salt, decide to wait till after 9 a.m. to do my apts., less traffic etc. and the snow will be done. We ended up with +/- 1"
> 
> It's 17* and amazingly sunny, the salt is doing it's thing, life is good.
> ...


If I'm understanding you, You are saying must be a lot of 2'' trigger out there or incompetent Contractors? Yes my wake time is 4:30 am but not by choice or because I'm busy,:laughing:


----------



## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

If you made your point clear, then I think it was the right thing to do. I had an identical situation at a site 5 years ago. I called the contact at 11 pm...it was under the 2" trigger but it was all ice. I told her it needed to be done or she'd wish it was later...she said she couldn't authorize service. at 10 am the next day they call me in a panic because it was a solid mess. The property owner bought the material for the walkways, I provided the labor and we got through it. I didn't fight them on the wording in the contract, but sold them on a higher price zero tolerance contract the next year...and every year since. I think these situations can be an opportunity for the future, but in the meantime it's wise to stick to the contract that they signed. If they didn't read it, that's not your problem, it's theirs.

As far as your contract, I've made it a point to sell a finished product, not a process...by which I mean "it's none of your business how I get it down to blacktop, just that I get it there." I plow when I think it needs it and don't if it doesn't. 1/2", 1", or 20"...I decide how it's done at the time it happens.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Lots of good threads, All reasonable and know BS. So far I got more agrees. 

I do feel that I am fulfilling my end of the Contract legally. I have two dedicated wheel loaders with pushers on site along with one pickup, All liability's and WC are in place. All of there safety meetings been done. 

I would think the brass are happy with that and are reasonable enough to know that it could be a light or above average snow falls that has nothing to do with this contract and been paying on time with no issues. Maybe I should just close one eye to this guy and do my job as contracted. 

Now I here the medical building my wife works in with four doctors office and a urgent care were never serviced.


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

*2" trigger*



FredG;2085069 said:


> If I'm understanding you, You are saying must be a lot of 2'' trigger out there or incompetent Contractors? Yes my wake time is 4:30 am but not by choice or because I'm busy,:laughing:


exactly.

My wife is a morning person, and she has to be at work at 6:30. So most days I am up at 4:45 with her. I can go turn the heat on in the shop and then do some bookwork till it warms up. Sometimes I can even call it a day at 3, when she comes home. We rarely see 9:30 pm


----------



## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

This is kind of why i think seasonal contracts almost have to be written as zero tolerance. Customers want to save money writing the specs at a 2" push then are not happy with the results. I have never found it cost effective salting off 2" of snow


----------



## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

PhilFromErie;2086608 said:


> This is kind of why i think seasonal contracts almost have to be written as zero tolerance. Customers want to save money writing the specs at a 2" push then are not happy with the results. I have never found it cost effective salting off 2" of snow


I'm beginning to try to have all my customers for commercial have at least 1 inch contact with salting below that. To much at risk these days


----------



## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

Right, and pretty much ever customer pretty much expects 1.5 inches of snow to be plowed, regardless of what the contract states.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

PhilFromErie;2086608 said:


> This is kind of why i think seasonal contracts almost have to be written as zero tolerance. Customers want to save money writing the specs at a 2" push then are not happy with the results. I have never found it cost effective salting off 2" of snow


There is no such thing as zero tolerance.

If there was, we wouldn't have to own plows.


----------



## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

By zero tolerance I mean if you can pull up a windrow you plow it. None of the "well i dont need you to do anything if its only an inch and a half of snow, we can get through that"


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Zero tolerance should be defined as. Once the storm is over you should have bare pavement within a reasonable amount of time and efforts must be made to keep things clear during the storm.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape;2086645 said:


> Zero tolerance should be defined as. Once the storm is over you should have bare pavement within a reasonable amount of time and efforts must be made to keep things clear during the storm.


I don't guarantee bare pavement either.


----------



## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

LapeerLandscape;2086645 said:


> Zero tolerance should be defined as. Once the storm is over you should have bare pavement within a reasonable amount of time and efforts must be made to keep things clear during the storm.


yes that's what Im referring to


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

PhilFromErie;2086608 said:


> This is kind of why i think seasonal contracts almost have to be written as zero tolerance. Customers want to save money writing the specs at a 2" push then are not happy with the results. I have never found it cost effective salting off 2" of snow


I don't think zero tolerance will not work in this area, My buddy that does the Hospital does not have zero tolerance. When salting I spread the same amount of salt at 1/2 inch or 1.5 inch.

You still have to work the contract as stated. What kind of reasonable person would not know you have to deal with some snow. I would go for zero if the client pays extra for it.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

snowplower1;2086616 said:


> I'm beginning to try to have all my customers for commercial have at least 1 inch contact with salting below that. To much at risk these days


My GL only states salt present, Not pavement showing, The insurance man rides by and checks sometime. Where is the risk?


----------



## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

I think you did the right thing honestly.... I have not been in the plowing business very long but the 5 years I have, I have come to the conclusion that 2" triggers get you in trouble more often than not. My first two years like anyone starting out I went with what seemed to be the "industry standard" of a 2" trigger to plow, and salt anything less... Needless to say those guidelines made me look bad. All my contracts now are any snow totaling more than 1/2" get plowed and salted. In the event of large storms plowing will be performed at every 3" trigger plus the final plowing which may only be 1/2"-2.5". This made me look like a hero.. No more problems. I had a VERY hard time getting clients to agree with this but one simple statement made them understand the importance of having lower plowing triggers.... I simply asked this question. "Can u imagine how bad our roadways would be if county and state trucks only salted roads if totals were nearly 2"?????". If you think about it , it's a great selling statement.... Now I make a **** ton more money on large and small storms. I'm not saying it's the answer but it sure works for me.... Best part is while my competitors are subbing for ppl like Brickman they sling salt on 2" of snow and those lots looks like hell all day unless it gets sunny and 50 outside, and my lots have been at bare pavement and wet all day. It took me backwards for about a season getting rid of the high trigger but then local banks and restaurants began to see that my trucks were on the lots that looked superior to other lots and in a lot more timely fashion. I've got to much work now looking to add another truck. I have never had a seasonal contract. All per push/salt and all smaller places like banks, insurance agencies, small dr offices, etc. I swear I think if you are a truck and plow guy with no big loaders etc, small lots are the way to go. It's zero problem to bust out 3 small lots clearing $100 bucks a piece on each. Just cannot do that kind of profit on large lots with a truck. Sorry I'm rambling! Lol


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2086645 said:


> Zero tolerance should be defined as. Once the storm is over you should have bare pavement within a reasonable amount of time and efforts must be made to keep things clear during the storm.


If this how zero tolerance is properly defined, I agree, That's standard for me during a storm. But where does the 2'' trigger come into play with these 1/4'' and 1/2'' small storms.


----------



## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

"But, it doesn't matter what it looked like at the end of the day, it matters what it looks like first thing."

Perfect quote. I used to salt for a guy that wanted to plow and salt right after shift change - made no sense that people slipped their way into the building only to watch the blacktop appear from their desks.

It better snow soon, you all are arguing about splitting hairs or second guessing something that woulda been better seen first hand to make a decision........


----------



## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

FredG;2086700 said:


> If this how zero tolerance is properly defined, I agree, That's standard for me during a storm. But where does the 2'' trigger come into play with these 1/4'' and 1/2'' small storms.


If a parking lot is supposed to be bare within reason, the 2" trigger is merely writing on paper. An inch of wet snow only salted makes a mess that we get called to clean up - well we don't get called cause we plow it first.

Why do we put triggers in contracts at all when it comes to lots like this, meaning salted or "zero tolerance"? Cause the customer doesn't know any better and it's easier to sell something on their knowledge level. Tell them you'll plow at 3/4" on some nights and see how that goes over - give them a clean lot to pull into in the am and you'll have 99.5% happy customers.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

framer1901;2086707 said:


> If a parking lot is supposed to be bare within reason, the 2" trigger is merely writing on paper. An inch of wet snow only salted makes a mess that we get called to clean up - well we don't get called cause we plow it first.
> 
> Why do we put triggers in contracts at all when it comes to lots like this, meaning salted or "zero tolerance"? Cause the customer doesn't know any better and it's easier to sell something on their knowledge level. Tell them you'll plow at 3/4" on some nights and see how that goes over - give them a clean lot to pull into in the am and you'll have 99.5% happy customers.


I'm not buying they don't know any better, They know better or they would be on a per trip contract. You want pavement showing on a 1/2'' storm sign per trip. Or state i/2'' trigger in your contract so contractors can bid accordingly.

Not sign a 2'' trigger and expect someone to bow to you. This is called personal gain and is dishonest. I have no intention of letting someone cost me $$"s for personal gain. Those happy clients are one I don't need.payup


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

PhilFromErie;2086623 said:


> Right, and pretty much ever customer pretty much expects 1.5 inches of snow to be plowed, regardless of what the contract states.


This post was not started about a 1.5'' trigger. It's about not plowing a 1/2'' of freezing rain and salting in 38 to 45 degree's with a 2'' trigger in contract. The client wanted it plowed I stuck the contract in his face, He did not have much to say but nice salt job. I go by said agreement not what makes the client happy at my expense. Way off topic.


----------



## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

FredG;2086746 said:


> This post was not started about a 1.5'' trigger. It's about not plowing a 1/2'' of freezing rain and salting in 38 to 45 degree's with a 2'' trigger in contract. The client wanted it plowed I stuck the contract in his face, He did not have much to say but nice salt job. I go by said agreement not what makes the client happy at my expense. Way off topic.


I would say you're good to go, you've got your feisty resolve all recharged!:salute: In my book you handled it quite well.(not that it really matters what I think lol)


----------



## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

I believe we got the same storm you did. Almost a inch of sleet then 5 hours of freezing rain. Temps were forcssted to be 42 degrees by 3:00am. We still called everyone in and started plowing at 11:00pm. It was to risky because the lots were solid ice. Once they were plowed we just dusted them with salt for afternoon re freeze. All our stuff is either per service 1" trigger and salt or all inclusive. It's real simple for us to make the call we did. 

Last year we signed a real big complex for all inclusive plowing with a 2" trigger and salt extra upon request. It was their contract and bid specs that said 2" and even went on to say 2" of "new" accumulation. I didn't make a big deal about it because I assumed they would only want salt after plowing or something silly. A couple of weeks Into the season and the super started calling me wanted to be "plowed out" I go out and there was a inch of snow out there plus piles of snow shovelled out In to the lot from around all 700 cars that park there . When I explained I wasn't plowing because it didn't hit trigger he had many choice words for me . This went on all season, if we truly hit trigger I would plow it and clean up all the extra b.s they left but when they demanded I plow I sent them a extra bill for a out of contract push. If it was close to trigger I would plow it but not if I took 5 measurement and the largest one I got was 1.5" I left. Our area can easly get 4-6 small events of 1-2". That adds up to some big money I would be giving away based on the size of this place. 
I didn't feel good doing this, but it's what everyone bid, and what they asked for


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

leigh;2086909 said:


> I would say you're good to go, you've got your feisty resolve all recharged!:salute: In my book you handled it quite well.(not that it really matters what I think lol)


It does matter what you think, It also matters what everybody else thinks if agree with me or not. Got off topic a little but still reasonable opinions. I don't know why when it comes to snow all maintenance people are experts. I do not have these issues during construction season even with same people.Thumbs Up


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Superior L & L;2086930 said:


> I believe we got the same storm you did. Almost a inch of sleet then 5 hours of freezing rain. Temps were forcssted to be 42 degrees by 3:00am. We still called everyone in and started plowing at 11:00pm. It was to risky because the lots were solid ice. Once they were plowed we just dusted them with salt for afternoon re freeze. All our stuff is either per service 1" trigger and salt or all inclusive. It's real simple for us to make the call we did.
> 
> Last year we signed a real big complex for all inclusive plowing with a 2" trigger and salt extra upon request. It was their contract and bid specs that said 2" and even went on to say 2" of "new" accumulation. I didn't make a big deal about it because I assumed they would only want salt after plowing or something silly. A couple of weeks Into the season and the super started calling me wanted to be "plowed out" I go out and there was a inch of snow out there plus piles of snow shovelled out In to the lot from around all 700 cars that park there . When I explained I wasn't plowing because it didn't hit trigger he had many choice words for me . This went on all season, if we truly hit trigger I would plow it and clean up all the extra b.s they left but when they demanded I plow I sent them a extra bill for a out of contract push. If it was close to trigger I would plow it but not if I took 5 measurement and the largest one I got was 1.5" I left. Our area can easly get 4-6 small events of 1-2". That adds up to some big money I would be giving away based on the size of this place.
> I didn't feel good doing this, but it's what everyone bid, and what they asked for


I agree, The Contractor bids for the level of service requested by client. We all know a 2'' trigger sucks, If I build a parking lot and 12'' of stone is spec for this application and they want 10'' ( Private of course ) to save money, I'm not putting the 12'' at my expense to do the right thing. I take my car to the doll up man, I tell him wash it and shampoo the carpets, Clean and treat leather and catch the windows. I can't go back and expect it buffed polished and waxed for same money. The same with snow these are unreasonable expectations. These type of people are why we have unions and prevailing wage to prevent this type of behavior.

They pay there people inside to work though a temporary service to prevent health benefits etc. Install two big win towers for electricity which wasn't easy. They have to give the city enough power to run all street lights in the city and sell a certain amount to the power company. These people are all about saving money. I can't tell you publicly who owns them but you probably would not like it.


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

LapeerLandscape;2084849 said:


> My point is it maybe more cost effective to plow then to salt 4 times. You cant have ice in the parking lot and one attempt to melt 1/2" is not good enough.


Pray tell, how does a person plow freezing rain?


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

You do what you have to to get the customer a clear lot. What would you have done.


----------



## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

JimMarshall;2087022 said:


> Pray tell, how does a person plow freezing rain?


Giant squeegee, aka 14' protech pusher with rubber edge.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2087022 said:


> Pray tell, how does a person plow freezing rain?


The Op was not asking how, he has two dedicated loaders with rubber edge, The ? was would you at your expense with a 2'' trigger, This thread has been very constructive so far. Don't start. Your the first one with a childish response.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

beanz27;2087070 said:


> Giant squeegee, aka 14' protech pusher with rubber edge.


You think a 12 or 16' protech would of worked? There's both on site.:laughing:Thumbs Up


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I don't know how or why you guys put urself in these situations. We only do full and total control. With over 500 accounts, we treat them all the same. It's our call when and what to do. We'll make the decision to plow or salt. It's our name, our reputation, our liability. We don't have any 2inch triggers, we have control or we don't want ur work, simple as that.

Sure each area is different, but is it? Lets stay apples to apples meaning some areas are to cold for salt or not a common practice.

If you(company/business) don't have the same ideology of a snow/ice free safe work/consumer lot, we don't want you.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2087033 said:


> You do what you have to to get the customer a clear lot. What would you have done.


I took your advice yesterday same conditions maybe 3/4 inch tops, Looked a lot better but still not sure it helped that much on my dime, Meaning use of one loader and my time plus salt. I was still the only one out plowing seen some guys spreading.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

1olddogtwo;2087078 said:


> I don't know how or why you guys put urself in these situations. We only do full and total control. With over 500 accounts, we treat them all the same. It's our call when and what to do. We'll make the decision to plow or salt. It's our name, our reputation, our liability. We don't have any 2inch triggers, we have control or we don't want ur work, simple as that.
> 
> Sure each area is different, but is it? Lets stay apples to apples meaning some areas are to cold for salt or not a common practice.
> 
> If you(company/business) don't have the same ideology of a snow/ice free safe work/consumer lot, we don't want you.


I agree totally, And I thought I had control till some loudmouth maintenance man started crying. This is my first year with them and maybe will send them south. I made my decision and done what I thought was right and did not service them.

I have no problem servicing a 2'' trigger I don't have the luxury of picking and choosing. Around here a standard 2'' trigger per occur. is what they want. There is a couple of guys that I respect there opinion and think I should of plowed 1/2'' of freezing rain. My GL has no problem with a 2'' trigger.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SNO, Where you at?? You ignoring my stupid post.:laughing::laughing:


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

FredG;2087076 said:


> The Op was not asking how, he has two dedicated loaders with rubber edge, The ? was would you at your expense with a 2'' trigger, This thread has been very constructive so far. Don't start. Your the first one with a childish response.


How am I being childish?

I understand you do what you need to do, but I feel I have a legitimate question. How do you plow 1/2" of solid ice off of anything without salt?

I would salt the **** out of it and then come back in an hour to plow the resulting slush.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JimMarshall;2087022 said:


> Pray tell, how does a person plow freezing rain?


You don't plow freezing rain, you plow the ice that accumulates from freezing rain.

Especially if you salt before hand and it doesn't bond to the pavement.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2087098 said:


> How am I being childish?
> 
> I understand you do what you need to do, but I feel I have a legitimate question. How do you plow 1/2" of solid ice off of anything without salt?
> 
> I would salt the **** out of it and then come back in an hour to plow the resulting slush.


Dude, You need to read the op's post or at least some of the upper posts. We are discussing plowing a 1/2 inch of freezing rain (not Solid ice) with a 2'' trigger seasonal. The property was salted. The ? is would you plow 1/2'' freezing rain in over 40 degree temps.


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

FredG;2087106 said:


> Dude, You need to read the op's post or at least some of the upper posts. We are discussing plowing a 1/2 inch of freezing rain (not Solid ice) with a 2'' trigger seasonal. The property was salted. The ? is would you plow 1/2'' freezing rain in over 40 degree temps.


Obviously "freezing rain" must mean something different there than it does here.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2087099 said:


> You don't plow freezing rain, you plow the ice that accumulates from freezing rain.
> 
> Especially if you salt before hand and it doesn't bond to the pavement.


Exactly. I salted looked good to me. This was not froze, It was gone before they came out for lunch besides some standing water.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Do you have a clause that's says it's extra when requested by mgmt? Then it's out of contract and you are waiting on the mgmt to give you the ok to do what's necessary and in the mean time if a skip and fall might not be your fault


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

ponyboy;2087113 said:


> Do you have a clause that's says it's extra when requested by mgmt? Then it's out of contract and you are waiting on the mgmt to give you the ok to do what's necessary and in the mean time if a skip and fall might not be your fault


Once again, why would you have ur customer manage ur company?

Seasonal is all inclusive.

Is that the porpose, fixed monthly bill, revenue?


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

The whole problem here is (and I am assuming) the 2 inch trigger refers to snow. 1/2 inch of freezing rain or ice is equal to 5 or 6 inches of snow and that requires much more salt. Its all about the moisture content.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I guess the real question is what's listed in the exclusion area of the contract.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2087113 said:


> Do you have a clause that's says it's extra when requested by mgmt? Then it's out of contract and you are waiting on the mgmt to give you the ok to do what's necessary and in the mean time if a skip and fall might not be your fault


Report to contact when lots have been salted. I make sure salt is present to protect myself. The former contractor would not give them the right amount of salt. It only takes 1.5 yards to salt it down real good. He complements me on the salt application. My GL makes me salt anyways and checks from time to time.

My GL won't let me do a big 24hr food store I could of got. They claim there's to much traffic. Maybe I need another carrier. This works for me they can have the food store. But they will let me do a outlet mall. I think the GL had some bad experience with 24 hr food stores.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

So you are covered and did everything you needed to do 
Next year try for a lower trigger at higher price


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

1olddogtwo;2087118 said:


> Once again, why would you have ur customer manage ur company?
> 
> Seasonal is all inclusive.
> 
> Is that the porpose, fixed monthly bill, revenue?


I'm not I already decided if he gives me a problem again I'm going to the brass and straighten them up. This guy is just a yes man. You did not answer my ? would you have plowed the 1/2 inch or not.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2087147 said:


> So you are covered and did everything you needed to do
> Next year try for a lower trigger at higher price


Lets hope I can, It would not be that much more and not that hard to understand.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2087109 said:


> Obviously "freezing rain" must mean something different there than it does here.


It could be the definition of freezing rain, Freezing rain to me is 80% water. You know water and some slush not froze in 40 + degree's. I guess you could just call it slush.


----------



## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Knowing and understanding your customers wants and needs before giving them a number will make this business less painful. How was the lot treated last year, were they happy etc..... And no, you can't always get that info. Bid specs sometimes don't tell the whole story, you can't compare this business to construction.

Treating every customer like Artic does is ideal, if your market and customer base will allow it - it makes it way easier to make decisions, all you have to do is perform.

I want a happy customer at my profit margin otherwise we can't work for you. I've cut one loose during the year due to their initial expectations being different than what they actually wanted - I drove past the place everyday on the way home, I knew what they were getting and it changed dramatically once the snow started flying and they had a seasonal verses per push contract. I didn't want to do it but I had too, just not good business.


----------



## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG;2087223 said:


> It could be the definition of freezing rain, Freezing rain to me is 80% water. You know water and some slush not froze in 40 + degree's. I guess you could just call it slush.


To me it's 100% water.

but you say it's only 80%. What is the other 20% of that rain drop made up of? (frozen or unfrozen)


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

framer1901;2087225 said:


> Knowing and understanding your customers wants and needs before giving them a number will make this business less painful. How was the lot treated last year, were they happy etc..... And no, you can't always get that info. Bid specs sometimes don't tell the whole story, you can't compare this business to construction.
> 
> Treating every customer like Artic does is ideal, if your market and customer base will allow it - it makes it way easier to make decisions, all you have to do is perform.
> 
> I want a happy customer at my profit margin otherwise we can't work for you. I've cut one loose during the year due to their initial expectations being different than what they actually wanted - I drove past the place everyday on the way home, I knew what they were getting and it changed dramatically once the snow started flying and they had a seasonal verses per push contract. I didn't want to do it but I had too, just not good business.


Yes I think I will have to sell them on a lower trigger for a little more money next season. Last season they said the guy was always late but let him bid. Bidders had to bid this seasonal and per trip and expected salt usage. They took my seasonal.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2087230 said:


> To me it's 100% water.
> 
> but you say it's only 80%. What is the other 20% of that rain drop made up of? (frozen or unfrozen)


a little freezing rain that melts when it hits the ground and some freezing rain sticks to the water, Nothing ever froze on ground. I probably could of hit it with a rubber edge and never salted.


----------



## TPM LLC (Jan 3, 2016)

To answer the question. 1/2 inch of wintry mix with a 2 inch trigger and 40 degree promised temps, I would have salted only. I would also check on it to make sure the salt took effect before they open or at the end of the storm. Not saying my opinion is right but that's what I would have done. Good read.


----------



## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

Not to get WAY off topic, but I believe a few of you need to go back to meteorological school. FREEZING RAIN (by definition) is just as it sounds- precipitation that falls as rain AND THEN FREEZES ON CONTACT with the ground, your car, power lines or anything else it comes into contact with. It is caused by warm air aloft that keeps the falling precip in the form of rain. Once at the surface however, where temps are below freezing, it forms a layer of ice that sticks to whatever it is on (car, house, power lines). So, if you had 40 degree temps and slush in the ground, then it's not freezing rain. It's either snow or sleet that falls and comes into contact with the ground or objects above 32 deg and thus doesn't stick or accumulate. Left alone however, it will at some point, cool the ground temps below freezing and start to accumulate (and also freeze to the ground and form ice which can't be plowed), thus, performing your salt app was the proper move, in order to keep it from adhering to the pavement. As temps rose and the sun came out later that day, it would all melt away.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

^^^

Wasn't looking to split hairs and it doesn't matter to the point I was trying to make.

Also if Temp of ground is below 32 and froze soild, and it above 32 a few degrees, rain will freeze. That wasn't the case here.


----------



## DIRISHMAN (Jul 30, 2010)

wow very informative meteorological reading ................................ UGH!!!!!!! think all over a stupid 1/2 inch can only imagine when the real snow comes what that idiot will say then


----------



## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

1olddogtwo;2087512 said:


> ^^^
> 
> Also if Temp of ground is below 32 and froze soild, and it above 32 a few degrees, it will freeze. That wasn't the case here.


Exactly the point I was trying to make. Knowing EXACTLY what type of precip you are dealing with, and air AND pavement temps, directly dictates WHAT you do AND WHEN you do it, as far as handling a particular storm. The OP was calling this freezing rain (which it wasn't) and so was getting differing answers as to how he should have handled it. I simply felt it was important that we all were on the same page as to what he was dealing with so as to give the proper directions. That's all.


----------



## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

DIRISHMAN;2087534 said:


> wow very informative meteorological reading ................................ UGH!!!!!!! think all over a stupid 1/2 inch can only imagine when the real snow comes what that idiot will say then


Don't think name calling is appropriate. Let's all try to be PROFESSIONAL ADULTS not school yard bullies. Just trying to HELP, which I believe is the point of this site, and in this business, accuracy is very important. A half inch (if it's ice) can be WAY worse than 12" of fluffy white stuff.


----------



## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

derekslawncare;2087550 said:


> Don't think name calling is appropriate. Let's all try to be PROFESSIONAL ADULTS not school yard bullies. Just trying to HELP, which I believe is the point of this site, and in this business, accuracy is very important. A half inch (if it's ice) can be WAY worse than 12" of fluffy white stuff.


I think the second part of comment was directed toward the maintenance man lol


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

leigh;2087618 said:


> I think the second part of comment was directed toward the maintenance man lol


That's how I took it.


----------



## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

leigh;2087618 said:


> I think the second part of comment was directed toward the maintenance man lol


Ok, thank you. I misread that as him calling me an idiot and making a big deal out of a half inch. I know there are a lot of very seasoned plow guys on here, but just felt it is important to remember that there are a whole lot of very "green" newbies as well and it is important that we educate and give clear advise for them to benefit from as well. JMO


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm not a weather man and he did call this storm freezing rain, Whatever the dictionary dictates may be different. Lets put it this way. A lot of water and a little sleet not froze.

No it was not freezing rain like a ice skating rink that breaks limbs and utility poles. I'm pretty sure most knew what I was referring to as they got the same storm and admitting to squeegeeing or scraping anyway you want to put it.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

DIRISHMAN;2087534 said:


> wow very informative meteorological reading ................................ UGH!!!!!!! think all over a stupid 1/2 inch can only imagine when the real snow comes what that idiot will say then


It's been a long time since I had to deal with a unreasonable fool, Just my luck, One more time he breaks them I'm going to the brass and explain the contract to them so they can straighten out this fool.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

framer1901;2087225 said:


> Knowing and understanding your customers wants and needs before giving them a number will make this business less painful. How was the lot treated last year, were they happy etc..... And no, you can't always get that info. Bid specs sometimes don't tell the whole story, you can't compare this business to construction.
> 
> Treating every customer like Artic does is ideal, if your market and customer base will allow it - it makes it way easier to make decisions, all you have to do is perform.
> 
> I want a happy customer at my profit margin otherwise we can't work for you. I've cut one loose during the year due to their initial expectations being different than what they actually wanted - I drove past the place everyday on the way home, I knew what they were getting and it changed dramatically once the snow started flying and they had a seasonal verses per push contract. I didn't want to do it but I had too, just not good business.


Why do you feel that a snow contract can not be treated like a construction contract? Client and Contractor still got to be on the same page. There is no guarantee of blacktop showing or no tolerance in contract. I'm happy with the money if service level is within Contract.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Was up and around town checking conditions on property's and drinking coffee with other contractors. Noting was slick and nobody had intentions of servicing any clients as more snowfall was expected.

I get a text at 6am from maintenance man, The parking lot is slick and should of been done a long time ago and should not have to call me for service. I text him back that said property was monitored and we will not be salting property at this time. He calls me and asks me to come down, He's acting violently and asked me to leave property.

While we are out there arguing the accounts payable person comes over and tells him to throw a little bit of salt in the crosswalks and thats it. After calling me every name in the book he saz okay sir have a good day in front of the women. With all this said we got a fast inch and it was slick. I salted at about 5:30pm. Here are some pics of said property before salt spread.[ATTACH
View attachment 149554
[/ATTACH]


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Talk with guy in charge 
Tell him this guy is threatening you and you won't stand for it 
If he is happy with you you are all good 
If he is telling this guy to do it finish year stick to contract and say good bye for next year 
Would ask not to have any contact with the jerk off who wants your job


----------



## Fourbycb (Feb 12, 2009)

If anyone has a Seasonal Contract they wouldnt might sharing , I would like to see what others are doing as far as how there laid out


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2094935 said:


> Talk with guy in charge
> Tell him this guy is threatening you and you won't stand for it
> If he is happy with you you are all good
> If he is telling this guy to do it finish year stick to contract and say good bye for next year
> Would ask not to have any contact with the jerk off who wants your job


I'm talking with the purchasing dept. I think they are going to keep there dog of me. Certainly nice to talk to a reasonable person and understands whats going on. He told the purchasing dept. that he did not bother me and only called me 2 times. I got 5 incoming and 1 nasty text, :laughing:


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I been asked to leave the property on a seasonal contract. I had no problem with this because of a dishonest and unreasonable maintenance man. They said my safety practices did not meet theirs. Meaning not salting. The property was only plowed once because we only had a total of 3'' for season. estimated 12 tons of salt applied. Come to find out they called every snow contractor in the City, No results nobody was interested or property owner did not like pricing etc.

Come to find out one of my suppliers calls me yesterday and said they delivered a backhoe down to said property for snow removal so service could be performed in house. I'm thinking they were thinking we had no snow and none in the forecast. My question is as My first time fired what do I do.

Take it with a grain of salt because of the Maintenance man being a pain and has no idea how to keep property save and be glad I'm gone. 

Possibly fight it as breach of Contract as property was maintained in a professional manner based on snowfalls and material used for said conditions.

Technically I'm glad to be out of there, But not really happy for some big corporation screwing a contractor if this is the case.

Please just state your personal experience or wisdom without calling me a dumb ***. :laughing:


----------



## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

OK your a smart ***

You could take your contract to court.
How do you think it will go?
Remember you will be required to mitigate your loss,
leaving even less for you to go after.

Did you get paid for your work"

Why are they calling you and telling you they brought a backho to the property for them?

or chalk it up and move on.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Sometimes it is best to just walk away and forget about it.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2109149 said:


> OK your a smart ***
> 
> You could take your contract to court.
> How do you think it will go?
> ...


I do business with the supplier of the backhoe and he knew I had the contract, I don't know just gossip. Yes I'm paid to date. There is no loss unless legally a breach on there part of future funds. I'm following ya,


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

grandview;2109187 said:


> Sometimes it is best to just walk away and forget about it.


I think sno, and yourself are right I was thinking the same, Just checking for opinions.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

grandview;2109187 said:


> Sometimes it is best to just walk away and forget about it.


Forget aboot what?


----------



## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG;2109189 said:


> I do business with the supplier of the backhoe and he knew I had the contract, I don't know just gossip. Yes I'm paid to date. There is no loss unless legally a breach on there part of future funds. I'm following ya,


ok
sux anyway when your this far into the season.

I think, the property manager needed to justify the need to pay him so much?


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;2109196 said:


> Forget aboot what?


Just like forgetting that psycho gf from high school,it never happened.,it wasn't me, must of been the other guy with the black truck,that was my twin brother.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2109197 said:


> ok
> sux anyway when your this far into the season.
> 
> I think, the property manager needed to justify the need to pay him so much?


For sure he come from a temporary agency 10 yrs ago. Now he's got a steady job and does all the dirty work. No big thing I'm cool. He wanted my job now he got it.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

grandview;2109208 said:


> Just like forgetting that psycho gf from high school,it never happened.,it wasn't me, must of been the other guy with the black truck,that was my twin brother.


What psycho gf?

Reminds me of a T-shirt......


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Just pray for a storm like we just had here. That will make him wish he never opened his mouth.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave;2109520 said:


> Just pray for a storm like we just had here. That will make him wish he never opened his mouth.


Yes, Hopefully he will receive some bad karma. Just another low payed factory worker looking for some overtime. Temporary service reject.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

How will they salt it


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2109564 said:


> How will they salt it


They got a tailgate spreader, If he salts everything that is mapped out like I had to it takes about 2yds. That's on the heavy side. 1.5yds will cover it. I only have rubber cutting edge on my pushers so I use a little more sometime.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

That's a lot for a tailgate salter that probably can't do bulk salt


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2109633 said:


> That's a lot for a tailgate salter that probably can't do bulk salt


No he will have to bag it, They got forks available I would think he would just keep a pallet on the truck. They will call the temporary employment agency and probably have a guy in the back loading the spreader so his fat a$$ can sit in the truck.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I always feel there needs to be a cancaltion fee espicalky with out written proof u did a bad job 
U can't get new contracts to fill that time and I run work away once I'm booked


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Take a video of the guy riding in the back of the truck. Send it to OSHA.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2109660 said:


> I always feel there needs to be a cancaltion fee espicalky with out written proof u did a bad job
> U can't get new contracts to fill that time and I run work away once I'm booked


They sent me a letter that my safety standards did not meet there's. They just wanted out because of low snowfalls. I don't think there is much I can do. They paid me to date.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave;2109677 said:


> Take a video of the guy riding in the back of the truck. Send it to OSHA.


I got people inside that can't stand the guy. I'll be informed and will be watching.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I hear you I disagree with them 
So now it's late in season and you won't be able to fill that spot why should you be out of money when you followed their contract requirements 
I'd might get other snow contracts to write letters for you agreeing with you and have a lawyer send them a letter maybe you can get something with out spending a ton of money


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2109708 said:


> I hear you I disagree with them
> So now it's late in season and you won't be able to fill that spot why should you be out of money when you followed their contract requirements
> I'd might get other snow contracts to write letters for you agreeing with you and have a lawyer send them a letter maybe you can get something with out spending a ton of money


I disagree to, I wanted out anyways, I just would of preferred the end of contract. I don't know need more info.


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Yeah probably a relief but what to do when a customer that you want drops you you can't fill their spot and u lose money


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2109902 said:


> Yeah probably a relief but what to do when a customer that you want drops you you can't fill their spot and u lose money


I think this is unusual situation. I have other factory's I never seen a maintenance man or no contact with anybody. Nobody calls me or bothers me. I'm definitely losing money. I have to be more careful with new clients. This has been a problem site with other contractors, I just choose to be a dumb a$$ and close one eye to it. I have no idea at my age why I get myself in these situations. I will have to see what I can do to avoid these situations legally with my contracts.


----------



## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

I say watch that site closely and document how they do without you. They do a crap job, take picturea and next year have a nice slide show showing how much better you did and you'd be willing to provide quality services again but that crazy guy isn't allowed to have contact with you. Than raise prices 15%. But for this year i'd walk away. It's never fun! 
Had this stupid small school we were doing and I HaTed it. The lady had the smallest complaints and she found someone else after she said we never showed up because the stupid sidewalk guy for the city piled a ton of snow in the entrance. Not much we cold of done. I was happy when we seen someone else there. If it had been me that seen the new guy I would of gotten out and thanked him


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

snowplower1;2110458 said:


> I say watch that site closely and document how they do without you. They do a crap job, take picturea and next year have a nice slide show showing how much better you did and you'd be willing to provide quality services again but that crazy guy isn't allowed to have contact with you. Than raise prices 15%. But for this year i'd walk away. It's never fun!
> Had this stupid small school we were doing and I HaTed it. The lady had the smallest complaints and she found someone else after she said we never showed up because the stupid sidewalk guy for the city piled a ton of snow in the entrance. Not much we cold of done. I was happy when we seen someone else there. If it had been me that seen the new guy I would of gotten out and thanked him


They love that crazy brown no sen @$$ kisser, He does all there dirty work while they hide in there offices. I do my own dirty work and my guys no better to complain about another one of my guys. I can't stand a crybaby, Don't tolerate it. Come crying to me you might be the first one looking for a job. I been through this when employing long time friends that think they can come crying because they don't like a guy. Thanks I put it behind me. Sux


----------



## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

Well that's good at least it was just one property not a large multi property. Still might be a hit but could be worse. Glad you are able to put it past you.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

snowplower1;2110825 said:


> Well that's good at least it was just one property not a large multi property. Still might be a hit but could be worse. Glad you are able to put it past you.


I knew I was done when he called me because we had some rain and was worried about slippery conditions in 45 degree's predicting 35 to 37 overnight. No frozen ground to date. This is when it all started. I thought we were okay as he treated me well and when I had to go through there 1/2hr safety program he acted like he wanted to be friends and was glad to have me.

I guess he did not appreciate me asking him if he was nuts over the facts of the rain and temperatures. This was after he almost demanded salt. Of course no salt was applied. about 12k left on contract. Thanks for caring over my loss, I'm cool and not cracking. Some people would complain if you gave them a free meal.:laughing: The laws suck now, Back in the day these things were handled in the street. I'm sure glad I worked union before I retired in 07. The company dogs were kept on chains or else. Should of stayed no stress all I had to do is commute to Rochester I did it for 28yrs. I should go back I could put another 6 or 7 years in. Not happening I like working on my own and to lazy.:laughing:


----------



## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Think they need heated walk ways there


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy;2110848 said:


> Think they need heated walk ways there


Amen, heated parking areas to, Thank God there is no moneys owed on the dedicated equipment, Could be a lot worse. Still suxs. My first problem ever, I stated one time I did not have the luxury of picking and choosing clients. I'm thinking I was wrong, careless etc. My new contracts with mobilization fees, proof of negligence not conjecture, early termination fees and my call on the safety on job is how it has to be or your setting yourself up for failure.


----------



## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

I would make sure you get some thing in writing that your officially not working for them any more . If they have a slip or fall they might try and put it on you.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

quigleysiding;2110941 said:


> I would make sure you get some thing in writing that your officially not working for them any more . If they have a slip or fall they might try and put it on you.


I'm all right the letter come from there legal dept, I'm relieved of contract Jan.31. Yes if that maintenance man tried relieving me I would of just went with the contract. I informed my GL carrier and WC and want them off my policy's as of Jan.31/16. Good thinking I would not put it past them.Thumbs Up


----------



## pitbullplowings (Feb 14, 2016)

I have only residential contracts, I do not blow the snow if it is less than 2 inches. if the property owner wanted salt and provides it I would go salt my accounts otherwise I do not perform any service for less than 2 inches. I have 2 homeowners who are senior citizens that want me to at least come and spread salt if it is less than 2 inches and that is fine with me.... they understand that the snowblower does not come out unless it is 2 inches or above.


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

pitbullplowings;2117595 said:


> . they understand that the snowblower does not come out unless it is 2 inches or above.


Even if they're willing to pay for it?


----------



## pitbullplowings (Feb 14, 2016)

if they ask me to bring it I will no problem especially if they are a regular customer


----------



## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

pitbullplowings;2117595 said:


> I have only residential contracts, I do not blow the snow if it is less than 2 inches. if the property owner wanted salt and provides it I would go salt my accounts otherwise I do not perform any service for less than 2 inches. I have 2 homeowners who are senior citizens that want me to at least come and spread salt if it is less than 2 inches and that is fine with me.... they understand that the snowblower does not come out unless it is 2 inches or above.


I get what your saying but driveways are a bit of a different ball game compared to a factory. I thought I'd be mad if I lost a large contract like the op, start of this year I cancelled a contract with a medical facility I've had for 3 years. They complained about me not sending guys then complain I shouldn't have sent guys. They do always pay but every single storm they would call about something that wasn't in my control or tell me how to do something. Next storm same thing.

Funny they have called me 3 times so far since December asking me to come back.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

beanz27;2117776 said:


> I get what your saying but driveways are a bit of a different ball game compared to a factory. I thought I'd be mad if I lost a large contract like the op, start of this year I cancelled a contract with a medical facility I've had for 3 years. They complained about me not sending guys then complain I shouldn't have sent guys. They do always pay but every single storm they would call about something that wasn't in my control or tell me how to do something. Next storm same thing.
> 
> Funny they have called me 3 times so far since December asking me to come back.


This guy that took over for me is bad there was snow all over the place. He got a rented hoe and 10' pusher. Obviously the rubber edge is shot. Minimal amount of salt it was near 0 degree. Could not see any blacktop or cross walks. Sometime you can jump out of the frying pan into the fire. The thing that gets me I never bothered with any of his accounts and he never bothered me. Everybody else passed on it accept for him. I have been contacted by his clients plenty of time I always passed.

Why would you take a job the first of feb. with a total snowfall of three inches. Keep in mind I used 12 to 14 ton of salt because he was calling all the time about slippery conditions till I got fed up. He would call me at 6am and complain he need salt. Needless to say I was already there 3am and was not slippery. I feel okay about it and glad to be out. My friends are more worried than I am, Been down there taking pics. I feel the other contractor crossed my lines and will go after everything he has.

If that factory contacted me to start plowing feb 1st and wanted service on a 2'' trigger with a total 3'' snowfall for season this would concern me and wonder why they would be so unreasonable. I gave the other contractor my nephew that I taught when he was in trouble last season temp. He would often come to me and compliment my nephews performance and never had a guy he could send on his own.  There is always some @$$ hole that will stick it in your back. He's a City firefighter he can do no wrong. Why some of these contractors start fires over one job is beyond me.


----------



## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

FredG;2117824 said:


> This guy that took over for me is bad there was snow all over the place. He got a rented hoe and 10' pusher. Obviously the rubber edge is shot. Minimal amount of salt it was near 0 degree. Could not see any blacktop or cross walks. Sometime you can jump out of the frying pan into the fire. The thing that gets me I never bothered with any of his accounts and he never bothered me. Everybody else passed on it accept for him. I have been contacted by his clients plenty of time I always passed.
> 
> Why would you take a job the first of feb. with a total snowfall of three inches. Keep in mind I used 12 to 14 ton of salt because he was calling all the time about slippery conditions till I got fed up. He would call me at 6am and complain he need salt. Needless to say I was already there 3am and was not slippery. I feel okay about it and glad to be out. My friends are more worried than I am, Been down there taking pics. I feel the other contractor crossed my lines and will go after everything he has.
> 
> If that factory contacted me to start plowing feb 1st and wanted service on a 2'' trigger with a total 3'' snowfall for season this would concern me and wonder why they would be so unreasonable. I gave the other contractor my nephew that I taught when he was in trouble last season temp. He would often come to me and compliment my nephews performance and never had a guy he could send on his own.  There is always some @$$ hole that will stick it in your back. He's a City firefighter he can do no wrong. Why some of these contractors start fires over one job is beyond me.


I'm actually in the middle of that myself, with a firefighter too lol, I used to send residential calls his way as I do 98% commercial, then id even sub him to help out on some of my lots. Now this year he low balled 3 of my small properties. Pointed out to my former customers why his prices are so low(no insurance and side money) and 2 cancelled with him right away. The last one was a pita property he can keep.

What's really funny is he got rid of his F350 and bought a half ton, then tried to go after my large lots that are 5+ acres and he thought just a pickup will be fine.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

beanz27;2118083 said:


> I'm actually in the middle of that myself, with a firefighter too lol, I used to send residential calls his way as I do 98% commercial, then id even sub him to help out on some of my lots. Now this year he low balled 3 of my small properties. Pointed out to my former customers why his prices are so low(no insurance and side money) and 2 cancelled with him right away. The last one was a pita property he can keep.
> 
> What's really funny is he got rid of his F350 and bought a half ton, then tried to go after my large lots that are 5+ acres and he thought just a pickup will be fine.


I'm putting my FF friend out to dry on one part of the city. He can have the stuff that I don't want. He's got along way to pension. I'm collecting mine, He's got more debt than I got. Fortunately I was able to start on my own dime and maintain. He just bought a new cat backhoe with pusher, rents to city for grave digging. 3/4 newer ram and renting a high dollar shop. I think I can put the squeeze on him and come out all right. He did not want the factory or he would of been at the pre bid meeting. The only way he got it because everybody else passed on it. Or has a bad relationship with factory as I did. His way of thinking the factory called him and everybody else in the city I'm good to go. Bottom line you can not determine a contractors performance on a 3'' total snowfall to date 12 ton of salt and a 2'' trigger.

Simple 2'' trigger salt slippery conditions. He was under the impression that anything under the 2'' trigger got salted what do I need loaders for. Did you see the above pictures when he would call me for salt. This is typical when a maintenance man or property managers think they are expert snow wizards and feel the job is theirs. You want a dusting salted make this clear and let a contractor know this so it can be bid accordingly. Not have a 2'' trigger for cheap than expect no tolerance level of service. Not in my world. I call it dishonest and unreasonable. I don't appreciate someone trying to pluck me for personal gain. I already had to many of these lovely experience. :laughing:


----------

