# So if GM declares bankruptcy



## rawfish (Nov 15, 2005)

It will be bigger than every other corporate bankruptcy ever filed in this country put together. Pleasant thought for the night about a company with debt obligations of $300 billion and only $20 billion in cash.

GM has so many resorces, and could put out great products but they need to cut pontiac, buick etc.....while toyota is putting 27 mil in R&D GM is only at 7 mil due to all of the worthless modles based on the same car ie pontiac GMAC. NOt only that the UAW has helped in the down fall of GM as well. GM was dumb to sign on and agree with contracts but the UAW pushed a bit too far and shot themselfs in the foot. Its very sad that there are workers going in at 8am and playing cards games all day and getting paid 13-19hr cause they are UAW but there are no jobs for them.


Your thoughts?


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## Yaz (Apr 13, 2005)

All I know is they better make it or I'll be walking in 30+ years when mine wears out.


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## PremierLand (Jun 11, 2004)

That'd suck if they do, so many people are losing jobs, Delphi is down also, which is like a branch of GM, tons of people in the local area here work for the big three, or a parts supplier for the big three like delphi, vieston, etc. 

There are also some guys on here who work at some of the plants.

Atleast 3 plants are getting shut down, I think? Lets hope thats it.


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## JElmWin (Jan 10, 2004)

Nope, not it. http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aTmZMKNq0G5M&refer=home
Gm continues to put all thier eggs in the wrong basket. Duplication, Stubborness, Out-Dated concepts all the hallmarks of a fat a failing corporation. Think Chrysler before Iaccoca. GM sits on their fat butts while Eastern Asia continues to give Americans what they've been begging for.
Gm needs to close everything but Chevy. Even the Corvette hasn't turned a profit in years. It's a fool who can't read the writing on the wall.
All the talk about Chapter 11 is GM's way of looking for a government handout. I feel for the workers but this is the same bunch whom were complaining about mandatory overtime and $250K annual wages during the height of the SUV craze.


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## Bad Luck (Sep 30, 2004)

I think Flykelly can attest to this but I believe that the UAW suggested that the company not invest in Hyndai, Daewoo, Saab, and others. My old man now has to worry about his retirement benefits and pension because the company can't afford the rising cost of health care for employees? 

It'll be a sad day if GM files.


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

*it CAN happen*

I watched it happen to Bethlehem Steel...
Sadly there is some truth in all that is said. 
It is hard to objectively look at what has happened to Amercan industry and not say something that will offend someone. So I won't.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

rawfish said:


> It will be bigger than every other corporate bankruptcy ever filed in this country put together. Pleasant thought for the night about a company with debt obligations of $300 billion and only $20 billion in cash.
> 
> GM has so many resorces, and could put out great products but they need to cut pontiac, buick etc.....while toyota is putting 27 mil in R&D GM is only at 7 mil due to all of the worthless modles based on the same car ie pontiac GMAC. Not only that the UAW has helped in the down fall of GM as well. GM was dumb to sign on and agree with contracts but the UAW pushed a bit too far and shot themselfs in the foot. Its very sad that there are workers going in at 8am and playing cards games all day and getting paid 13-19hr cause they are UAW but there are no jobs for them.
> 
> Your thoughts?


My thoughts are if you don't know what the he!! you are talking about you need to keep your mouth shut. I am so darn tired of people who don't work at GM tell me that all Uaw autoworkers are lazy. Its also quite funny if we played cards for 16 hours, that trucks get built at all. Come live one day in the footsteps of a UAW autoworker and you will see life quite different than you are talking about.
How is this for a days work, 60 trucks per hour and that lines doesn't stop. Two paid breaks over 8 hours, one is 28 mins the other is 23 mins. You miss a part you will get displined, you miss a day or are late you will get displined. Your hand hurts becuase of your job, you get to go to medicial and after they ice it down, its back to work. The next morning you can't hardly move your hand. 
Oh well back to that line we have trucks to build. Summer time it gets well over 100 degrees in the paint dept and Body shop, no shorts the rule here so you sweat all day building 60 trucks per hour. How do I know all this, its becuase I live it everyday for the last 28 years. So don't sit here and tell me shoprats are work 13-19 hrs a day and don't do crap but play cards. THAT IS A LINE OF B.S. If you want to place some of the blame for the downfall of GM at the hands of the UAW fine, I can live with that, but most of it lays with GM.:yow!:

Regards Mike
PROUD MEMBER OF UAW LOCAL 594
BUILDER OF WORLD CLASS FULL SIZE TRUCK.


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## BowTieDmax (Nov 25, 2003)

Easy there Flykelley,


You have to give some of us the benefit of the dought that we do know what we are talking about. I come from a whole family of GM retirees and current employees. And I am sorry, but I hear more stories or the card playing, sleeping and working 14-16 hr days for only 2 worth of work!! So yes I am sure there are plants and areas that work, hard but there is a huge amount of money that could be saved by better work ethics. And like allot of the big steel plants (LTV) in my area, the union just put the pay and benefits so high that the company just couldn’t afford it.


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## Bad Luck (Sep 30, 2004)

BowTieDmax said:


> Easy there Flykelley,
> 
> You have to give some of us the benefit of the dought that we do know what we are talking about. I come from a whole family of GM retirees and current employees. And I am sorry, but I hear more stories or the card playing, sleeping and working 14-16 hr days for only 2 worth of work!! So yes I am sure there are plants and areas that work, hard but there is a huge amount of money that could be saved by better work ethics. And like allot of the big steel plants (LTV) in my area, the union just put the pay and benefits so high that the company just couldn't afford it.


What you hear is true. But it is not the Unions fault, nor is it the workers. Do these family members tell you the whole story? Or just the one that gets the attention? These things take place at plants that still have contracts out with the union but GM cannot live up to it promise. The plants where they are completely shut down and have no where for the workers to go. GM must live up to the union contract so it has these guys come in to the plant and corals them like animals in cages for 9 hours a day and tells them that they don't care what they do, as long as they are at the plant and not out doing something else. These guys have few options in order to continue getting paid from GM, go to the plant and hang out, perform community service for 40 hours a week, or go back to school. If you are priveledged enough to get asked to transer to another plant, you get to move thousands of miles away from everything that you know only to lose seniority and take jobs away from another locals Union. Yeah, nice way to end your career. Most of these guys are in their late 40's and 50's, long time employees that only have a few years left until retirement and know nothing else. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Do you ingoramusus really think that these guys want to go and sit on their asses? These aren't today's batch of young lazy asses. These hardend Union Auto Workers with real work ethics and mindsets.

GM was pushed by the Union to sign the contracts? Do you know what GM was proposing? What do you do for a living? Does your company try to screw you every few years out of your pension and health benefits that you worked your ass off for 30 years for? All these guys are looking for is compensation for lining the pockets of corporate and government big wigs for decades. I'm sure Rick Wagoner and the rest fo the board make a VERY nice salary for driving the company into the ground. Probably makes a nice living sitting in the temp controlled office building on his ass while the guys on the line die from stomach cancer from ingesting microscopic paint particles for so long, tear rotator cuffs by working above their heads all day, get carpeltunnel so bad they have no feeling at all in their hands, tear miniscus in their knees from standing for 30 years, and pass out from heat exhuastion in the middle of summer with no AC or fans and the heat of the welders. All that and then they try to take away the very things that these guys will most definitely need?

The bottom line is that the UAW does not design, market or set profit margins for the product. They just show up an assemble it. I'm sure the workers at Nissan Indy plant are making the same wages if not more for the same work. The Japs just make better business decisions and have less personal interest in anything else besides making the company a well oiled machine. If the employee has no work, it's GM's responsibility to find the work for these guys. Don't get it twisted, I'm sure most of them would be happy going to work doing other things instead of taking an almost 30% cut in pay to sit and hangout and do nothing because these guys are not taking home their full pay. GM didn't have to sign the new contract, as a matter of fact, they can still back out of it, and they have already "re-negotiated" the terms of the contract. Basically the Union can do whatever it wants but GM is making the health benefit changes it wants to make.

Son of a 27 year UAW - currently getting BF'ed by GM.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Well Said Bad Luck. 
Thank You my brother, I have seen the hardship this great machine called GM puts on some of there workers. I will tell you guys this 30 years on the line at a GM truck plant is like 30 years of hard labor. I'm not talking about a parts plants, I have never worked in anything but assy plants and its damn hard work. 
Yes I'm thankfull that I work at GM, I have made a very good living in my 28 years here. I just get made as he!! when someone beats the he!! out of the autoworker for mismanagment by GM. As in a earlier post that stated we make $250.000 well guys do the math, $26.00 a hour x 40 hours a week is not even close. Heck double that and you still are not in the ballpark. As for the stroies about sleeping and playing cards all day are just that, most of the time stories and that all.

Regards Mike
Proud to be a member of UAW Local 594
Builder of World Class Full Size Pickups


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

Lets Face it guys... the government will bail out GM since if it were to to fold think how many people would be out of work... The politicians cannot afford to let GM fold.

I respect all you auto workers out there at the mercy of the poor management of GM. They need to clean house get some people at the top who really care about the fate of the company...


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

I thought the guys working for yota and hyandia or how ever the F you spell it makes quite a bit less than the guys working for ford and GM? 

Not really the unions falt(I'm sure there is a bit of the blame) but when the american auto co's market share was huge they were able to pay good $$$ and good benifits for thier workers.....then market share shrinks and you have obligations for guys that are getting old and costing more $$$(no offense, old guys cost more $$$ loaded than a young guy, rhgt wrong or indifferent) and you looking at being screwed. It would be nice if the big wigs would take thier big dollar sallaries, and other forms of compensation and cut them back. 

Alot has to do with the american public though. They want thier inexpensive products and ***** when all thats left in this country is jobs ad mcdonalds and wal mart All the wile buying cheaper products that are forign and have better quality The thing I find realy funny is that the forign stuff gets rated higher than the american......but if you look at the number of times the forign stuff is in the shop Somehoe if a Chevy is in the shop twice it gets a 4 on reliability, a toyota goes into the shop twice(or 4 times for its "scheduled matinence" ) and it gets an 8.

The uninformed leming public is the big reason. And the US govt and all the manufacturers should be educating the darn population. Ford and Chevy aught to run a campaign together. Just show the stats on what happens to your dollar when you buy american. And what happens to your dollar even when you buy a forign car built in america. Show how the jappanees come in here and get free land and big tax breaks, pay workers less, use jap co.s and stee to build the plants........the whole f-ing thing makes me sick......


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## rawfish (Nov 15, 2005)

Well if american companies would build a quality product there wouldn't be the problem of americans not buying american cars. Look at GM, what car do they put out besides the corvette that isn't a cheap under powered, tonka toy interior, with a design thats 10 years too late?? You have buick and pontiac that, all of there damn cars are boring as hell and yet there is still $$ put into a dieing product. A fine example if the RWD platform that GM was going to start building, well someone decided that hey lets build more trucks and keep on building trucks since they are selling so well and we are making so much money on them!???? Stupid!!! Look at DC there RWD platforms are taking off very well and selling very good compared to any chevy or ford. The new pontiac solstice its 10 years too late!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry but it can not compare to the miata and S200.

And for the unions, its not the 70's anymore, i'm not saying everyone is a lazy union worker but there is alot that hide behind the union comfort. And yes its part GM's fault as well as its part unions fault for pushing for so much out of a company that will crash due to the $$ thats coming in and $$ thats going out, sits simple economics and business forcasting that is obvioulsy lacking in US companies.


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## PremierLand (Jun 11, 2004)

flykelley said:


> My thoughts are if you don't know what the he!! you are talking about you need to keep your mouth shut. I am so darn tired of people who don't work at GM tell me that all Uaw autoworkers are lazy. Its also quite funny if we played cards for 16 hours, that trucks get built at all. Come live one day in the footsteps of a UAW autoworker and you will see life quite different than you are talking about.
> How is this for a days work, 60 trucks per hour and that lines doesn't stop. Two paid breaks over 8 hours, one is 28 mins the other is 23 mins. You miss a part you will get displined, you miss a day or are late you will get displined. Your hand hurts becuase of your job, you get to go to medicial and after they ice it down, its back to work. The next morning you can't hardly move your hand.
> Oh well back to that line we have trucks to build. Summer time it gets well over 100 degrees in the paint dept and Body shop, no shorts the rule here so you sweat all day building 60 trucks per hour. How do I know all this, its becuase I live it everyday for the last 28 years. So don't sit here and tell me shoprats are work 13-19 hrs a day and don't do crap but play cards. THAT IS A LINE OF B.S. If you want to place some of the blame for the downfall of GM at the hands of the UAW fine, I can live with that, but most of it lays with GM.:yow!:
> 
> ...


Is your plant getting shut down too?

Anyway Mike, I cant imagine what you have to be going through, I wish the best of luck to ya.


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## Bad Luck (Sep 30, 2004)

All good points. 

But I do differ your opinion on quality of American to Japanese Autos. To date there is still not an HD Jap pickup that can perfrom the work any one of the big three can do. There is still not a Jap light duty that has the reliability and staying power as the C/K1500, Silverado, & F-150. They appeal to differnt markets. Drive a base level Camry or Accord then drive a base level Impala or Taurus and tell me which is better. There is still this old time stigma of American cars being of poor quality and workmanship and too expensive. Probably true for a better part of the 80's and early 90's but things have turned around a lot since then.

As for them not having quality, powerful products other than the Vette, how about the whole GMT-800 platform? The Regal with the bullet proof 3.8l? Driven an 06 Impala with DOD lately? What about the CTS, the first American sedan to compete with the 3-Series? Ever drop the pedal on a GTO or a Supercharger Grand Prix?

And for evey Accord, Camry, or Pathfinder that someone says is still running great after 100k, I'll show them a Grand prix, Regal, or Blazer that's turned twice with no issues.

Some good info on Union made vehicles in the US. 
http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/cartruck2006.cfm


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Wow.

I've read about posts in this thread of UAW workers slaving in bad conditions, no horrific conditions - year after year, generation after generation. Yet, they choose not to get a better job and still have time to work a plow truck. Amazing.

There was a great article in the Wall Street Journal today really laying out the land. It covered how management at GM is mis-focused, how the workers are with issues and how the supposed forgien auto companies which build 80% of their cars here are making profit and paying their employees very well with out unions. ( And it's not that they build a better car either ).

I like the quote about workers being in their 40' or 50's and nearing retirement .... Uhhh, in the USA retirement is aorund 65 or 72 depending upon your birth year. That give you plenty of time to re-train and move to where the jobs are. 

Make your own conclusion but, things change. Competition drives this change and you can not live in a box while living in a country that promotes internationalization. So, what do you do when someone wins your plowing contract??? How do you sell yourself to your clients the next time???? It's about being better, faster, smarter and ever improving!


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

rawfish said:


> Well if american companies would build a quality product there wouldn't be the problem of americans not buying american cars. Look at GM, what car do they put out besides the corvette that isn't a cheap under powered, tonka toy interior, with a design thats 10 years too late?? You have buick and pontiac that, all of there damn cars are boring as hell and yet there is still $$ put into a dieing product. A fine example if the RWD platform that GM was going to start building, well someone decided that hey lets build more trucks and keep on building trucks since they are selling so well and we are making so much money on them!???? Stupid!!! Look at DC there RWD platforms are taking off very well and selling very good compared to any chevy or ford. The new pontiac solstice its 10 years too late!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry but it can not compare to the miata and S200.
> 
> And for the unions, its not the 70's anymore, i'm not saying everyone is a lazy union worker but there is alot that hide behind the union comfort. And yes its part GM's fault as well as its part unions fault for pushing for so much out of a company that will crash due to the $$ thats coming in and $$ thats going out, sits simple economics and business forcasting that is obvioulsy lacking in US companies.


Lets take a few stabs at a few cars and consider it the whole. Lets try it with some imports though. My bud has a hyundia and boy is it a power house, every time you close the doors it just feels like a quality well built car My mother worked at a mitsu dealer. It amazed me how people believed thier cars were better quality. Yup, I have 80k on my car with 0 problems.....um.....whats it in for.....oh....well its time for its scheduled matinence for the timing belt to get replaced. I've herd her say.....got do x matincence at x miles for you to keep your wanrantee. American car you run till it breaks....you dont replace 1/2 the parts before they break for grins. Forign car co's have people snowed on the quality and reliablity issue and you are part of the ignorant masses. When I say ignorant I mean by the strict dictionary definition, not saying your stupid just uninformed.

Dont just look at the $$$ the worker right now makes and compare it to the other worker. Look at the total loaded figure1 and 2 look at were all the other dollars go. From who builds the plant to who gets the $$$, to were are the parts actually made?


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

*Please let's keep it nice though!*

Since we are all professionals and friends, let's keep this nice and try to be objective.

I cannot speak for GM but I can speak for Bethlehem Steel. President Nixon once said "Bethlehem, what a golf course" when describing Bethlehem Steel's Weyhill golf course. One of the 3 private Steel-owned courses that the company provided for their chosen few. Along with paid mansions, security and groundskeeping and a skscraper office building with a floor layout in the form of a cross to afford more offices a corner window view.

And then there was my neighbor, like many who worked at "the steel" who used to boast how he could buy the neighborhood out with his salary. He never failed to mention his "14 week vacations", one of the perks that 20 or 25 year USWA Beth employees got.

All of this is well documented in a local Pulitzer prize winning newspaperman's book "Crisis in Bethlehem".

The steel is now going to be a casino playground for the wealthy and mostly minimum wage jobs for the mostly Latino poor South Bethlehem community.

The article that was alluded to in rawfish's article was a Detroit News article dated 10/17/05 "Job banks program - 12,000 paid not to work" which describes laid off auto workers in Michigan collecting $30+/hr salaries while doing no work for their employer. Here is the link address:

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm

I can speak for a personal situation: This coming July, the National Model Railroad Assoociation will have it's annual convention at the Pennsylvania Convention Center in Philadelphia. As part of this, a local trolley (streetcar) historical organization was invited to display it's modular toy trolley layout. They were informed that "due to union rules, no power tools could be used by exhibitors in the hall" They inquired as to whether they would be able to use a soldering iron to re-attach broken toy trolley (12 volt!) overhead wire on their model trolley layout. 
The convention center (in the former Reading Termimal) continues to struggle with a lack of exhibitors and little repeat business.

Everyone deserves a fair wage, and GM's problems are much more complicated than profits, labor costs, and health care costs. In the end it is America, and the American consumer, who will be the ultimate loser.


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## rawfish (Nov 15, 2005)

of course the korean cars are junk but they too will surpass the americans in a few years. Mitsu is just junk and even the import fans know that mistu can't build a good car except for the evo. But take a close look at honda and toyota. I have a 04 acura TL, what american car can I buy that will surpass the quality and performance for the same price, a bonniville?? 

As far as maintence all cars have schedlued maintence and some more than others, but thats just what the companies recomend to make more $$. I used to be be in the automotive business and I have owned and worked on all cars of the world and I would say that honda and toyota are two of the best made, even if you just put gas in them and drive them without any maintence. 

If its so bad why is it that if you go to a parts store they don't carry alot of the parts on hand?? yet they have tons and tons of ignition modules, struts, dog bones etc for domestics? hummm..........
Another good fact that GM is were they are now with there products is that its the biggest company in the world, comming from the contry where the best should come out of but they choose to continue making ****** old cars because some "patriotic" bastards kept on buying them.

Where would GM be if people purchased cars solely on quality and not patriotism. Not just individual users... think of all the fleet accounts that would be lost like police, government, and large companies that need a fleet of cars or trucks, just because "The Toyota is likely to need fewer repairs over the course of its life."

I'm starting to see this happening already, actually. Taxis which used to be Chevy Carpices are now Honda Odysseys. Theres a taxi company in central PA whose entire fleet is made up of civic sedans.


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## rawfish (Nov 15, 2005)

Oh yes not ripping on anyone here, but i'm just pissed that GM will fail and in turn it will hurt the US ecomomy as a whole. So please don't take offence to what I say i'm just venting, lets just all wish for snow


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## wls (Aug 17, 2003)

sixspeed said:


> http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thats quite the article, interesting


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## Bad Luck (Sep 30, 2004)

scottL said:


> Wow.
> 
> I've read about posts in this thread of UAW workers slaving in bad conditions, no horrific conditions - year after year, generation after generation. Yet, they choose not to get a better job and still have time to work a plow truck. Amazing.
> 
> ...


What page was that on? I have the Journal on my desk.

I'm very well aware of the retirment age. The point was is that a good majority of these guys started working with the company right out of high school, and are putting 30 plus years with the organization and their benefits are slowly getting shaved away. After 30 yrs, their pension would kick in and they could move on to other jobs. What you don't realize is that these guys lose a good portion of their pension should they not finish the term with the company. The y can't just go and learn a new trade. It's not that easy for a family man of 5 who is average condition at best.

Those who don't know will never understand...


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

sixspeed said:


> http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm


Great article....


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

PremierLand said:


> Is your plant getting shut down too?
> 
> Anyway Mike, I cant imagine what you have to be going through, I wish the best of luck to ya.


No Mark
We are getting ready to tool for the new truck next fall, so all is well at Pontiac Assy Center. Builders of World Class Full Size Pickups.

Regards Mike


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## Bad Luck (Sep 30, 2004)

rawfish said:


> Oh yes not ripping on anyone here, but i'm just pissed that GM will fail and in turn it will hurt the US ecomomy as a whole. So please don't take offence to what I say i'm just venting, lets just all wish for snow


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

*And YES you can count on me also Mike!*



flykelley said:


> No Mark
> We are getting ready to tool for the new truck next fall, so all is well at Pontiac Assy Center. Builders of World Class Full Size Pickups.
> 
> Regards Mike


And YOU will be building my next Full Size truck also!


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

scottL said:


> Wow.
> 
> I've read about posts in this thread of UAW workers slaving in bad conditions, no horrific conditions - year after year, generation after generation. Yet, they choose not to get a better job and still have time to work a plow truck. Amazing.
> 
> ...


Scott if you are talking about me Owning a Plowing company, I do it for several reason's.
1- I love to Plow snow, don't know why but I do love it.
2- I want my daughter to go to college and have some choice's in life that I didn't have.
3-I'm too young to sit at home at age of 50 and do nothing, but this old tired body can't work much more than 30 years on that line at GM
4-I can do it becuase this is still AMERCIA and its my god given RIGHT.

Regards Mike
Proud member of UAW Local 594
Builder of World Class Quality Full Size GM Trucks


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

Good Read from CNN....



> Getting 'intelligent' at GM
> For all its grousing management at the car maker has to do one thing ... make better cars!
> November 22, 2005: 8:35 AM EST
> 
> ...


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

*This sums it up!*



Frozen001 said:


> Good Read from CNN....


That sums it up exactly!!!!

And to you GM guys again, none of what I said was meant to bash GM or your Union....

Both are good and necessary!


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Bad Luck said:


> What page was that on? I have the Journal on my desk.
> 
> I'm very well aware of the retirment age. The point was is that a good majority of these guys started working with the company right out of high school, and are putting 30 plus years with the organization and their benefits are slowly getting shaved away. After 30 yrs, their pension would kick in and they could move on to other jobs. What you don't realize is that these guys lose a good portion of their pension should they not finish the term with the company. The y can't just go and learn a new trade. It's not that easy for a family man of 5 who is average condition at best.
> 
> Those who don't know will never understand...


I first heard the article explained by an industry analyst who follows the auto industry as it was explained on the morning 890 am in Chicago. The article can be found on A14 - 'A Tale of Two Industries'.

I also understand the old mentality of working with a company to the grave and believeing the company owes you until you die. Unfortunatly, for most industries this does not hold true. Most companies have or are doing away with retirement plans. You either have your 401k, SS, savings and Medicare or you have nothing.

'those who don't know will never understand'. How about it's easier to lie down and die than pick your self up, take responsibility and control rather than depend upon everyone else. Heck, you snow plow that took action on your part.

( Think about this one - it's not just GM. It's Ford, Enron, WorldCom, Disney, AOL, etc. Big companies run by Big cat's who will never be impacted directly by any mistake or wrong decision in how they experiment with the company they were given the reins too. They are financially well off and would never need to work again anyways. You and I will probably always need to work unless we hit the lotto )


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## wirenut (Jan 16, 2004)

unions are their own worst enemy
and the is no excuse for a vehicle nowadays to rust....anywhere

just my 2 cents.......


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## PremierLand (Jun 11, 2004)

flykelley said:


> No Mark
> We are getting ready to tool for the new truck next fall, so all is well at Pontiac Assy Center. Builders of World Class Full Size Pickups.
> 
> Regards Mike


Thats great your plant isnt being shut down.

BTW, I love my Chevy! 59,100 miles on it today and still running strong. Nothing wrong with it, execpt that rattling, still never got it fixed, lol, and that is the rear catalitic converter which is getting fixed monday.

Anyway, Keep Building those great trucks Mike!


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## Chris-R (Jul 9, 2005)

Auto assemblers work very hard. My cousin worked at the Framingham, MA plant until it closed. My Uncle worked there in the paint shop. With that said, the salary and benefit package offered to each employee becomes a strain on the company in our "new" economy. I don't think it's right but things are changing really fast. Today, more and more companies don't offer defined benefit pension plans anymore. Instead, they offer employee funded 401K type plans and match an employee's contributions. This is a huge cost savings to the employer. Another problem is the skyrocketing cost of health care. There's a huge union v. management divide on these issues. I don't know the answer but I agree with just about everything FlyKelley says. I look at other old US companies that are not only surviving but flourishing and ask myself what they are doing right? Take General Electric under the helm of Jack Welch. Profits soared during Jack's reign and employee relations were typically excellent. Best of both worlds. If GE can accomplish this, then it can be done. I think GM probably needs to restructure its management. We all know this probably won't happen.


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

*more GM mismanagement*

GM's Electro-Motive division used to be the world leader in locomotive building. But like everything else GM had, they mismanaged it into the ground. They had great ideas and poor quality. They lost the lion's share of the business to GE and they sold off the division just as their best product (AC traction) took off. Predictably, GE got greedy and are now losing market share due to quality issues... Same sad story.


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## HoveysLawnCare (Aug 3, 2004)

Good bye Chebby! Now Dodge will be number 2! Lol.


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

*What's bad for GM is bad for America*

What's bad for GM is bad for America...

When China or some extremist country attacks us we will have no industrial base... Think about that...


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

I heard that GM is going to go under because Wendy's no longer has the 99 cent menu....


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## JRKRACE (Feb 5, 2004)

In simpler terms, I think, GM is a wholly mismanaged company that is basically being called out by world economics. Take trucks for example. Ask yourself, is GM building the truck that I want?. I have been a buyer of GM trucks for the past 20 years and I've had them all from pick-ups to Suburbans. For the first time, I've looked over to the others. Why can't GM build a diesel crew that can hold a plow with ease? Ford can. Why does GM continue to put 245 tires on the HD line, although everyone I've talked to can't stand the look? Because that is GM's way. Minor examples I know, but when the consumer talks, you can bet Toyota and Nissan are listening. Even Ford is starting to come around. But GM? No..We will build it and you will buy it is the mentality. It's not quaity issues nor do I believe it's union issues. It's the simple fact that GM is not listening to the customer. When a company does not listen to a customer, it begins to lose market share. If GM got back the market share it lost and increased it, you can bet that they would not be in the trouble they are in now.
Everybody *****es at Toyota and Nissan, but wait until they come out with a full size HD diesel.And give the consumer what they want at the same time.

Sorry. I gotta give credit where it's due...


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## ProWorkz.com (Nov 29, 2004)

> What's bad for GM is bad for America...


Most of America is bad for America.....!!!!!


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## deh8255 (Nov 10, 2005)

*Bad for America*

I have worked both Union and Management in the Auto plants. This is bad for America. You can't blame any one group entirely. There are certainly opportunities for both to improve. Fact is though. management is responsible for the direction of the company, and in this case, it is down. Again though, the working class folks that are the ones to suffer. Starting at the top, there could be some concessions that could keep Americans working. This country continues to outsource to foreign countries and it is a real tragedy. It wont be long, none of us will be able to afford the goods and services US companies are providing. It is about time that Congress get off its rear and start protecting American jobs, both hourly and salary.


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## TRUE TURF LAWN (Sep 12, 2005)

who cares its not like GM is going to fall the face of this earth. every thing will be fine it will just take some time for them to get back to whare they were. so all you need to settle down.


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## rawfish (Nov 15, 2005)

GM will fail within 5-7 years they are $300 billion in the hole and only have $20 billion in cash. With sales falling every day its just a matter of time. 300 billion is allot of $$ they will not make it out.


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

I for one care whether GM goes under. One, I love GM vehicles, always have and always will. Two, lots of good people will become unemployed for reasons that are not their own doing, and that is bad for America. Three, competition and choice are good for consumers. And lastly, like the railroads/Penn Central and Chrysler, it's the overburdened taxpayer that will be stuck bailing them out.


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## Farmer_01 (Nov 10, 2005)

sorry to butt in on this intersting thread but I just had to add my 2 cents.
GM adds approximatly $1500.00 to the cost of every vehicle they sell to pay for their retired former employees pensions and health related costs.
Toyota meanwhile because of their short history of building vehicles in the U.S. adds approx.$300 to the cost of every vehiicle they sell for the same commitments.
that advantage allows them to build brand new plants with tax breaks and increased efficiency of the new plant and is more $$$ to expand their operations.
Don't blame UAW as the only woe that GM has to deal with. Politicians who allowed "Free trade " is telling the other countries that the U.S. will not be happy until we are just as poor as them.


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## rawfish (Nov 15, 2005)

I agree GM failing would have a ripple effect for every person in the usa and parts of the world in some way or another. Its funny how some may say that all imports should be banned and have high tax ot keep them out so americans will buy american. Well its a good thing that they are here because american cars 20 years ago were just about all the same and wasn't impoving at all. Its the Japanese that made batter cars thus creating competion for the big three to improve in tech.

I personaly think that when GM fails it will be harsh for the US but it will also awaken us as a big wake up call on how to do business on a global scale, and be better for us in the long haul, so no more mistakes are made again. Kinda like bush even his supporters are not supporting him now and as a whole we know not to ever make a mistake like that again.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Farmer_01 said:


> sorry to butt in on this intersting thread but I just had to add my 2 cents.
> GM adds approximatly $1500.00 to the cost of every vehicle they sell to pay for their retired former employees pensions and health related costs.
> Toyota meanwhile because of their short history of building vehicles in the U.S. adds approx.$300 to the cost of every vehiicle they sell for the same commitments.
> that advantage allows them to build brand new plants with tax breaks and increased efficiency of the new plant and is more $$$ to expand their operations.
> Don't blame UAW as the only woe that GM has to deal with. Politicians who allowed "Free trade " is telling the other countries that the U.S. will not be happy until we are just as poor as them.


I read that it was 1,500 for current employees but, when you add retired employees it comes to 3,500 per vehicle. I agree completly with your comment on some politicians will not be happy until we are as poor or poorer than other countries. Free Trade is such a slant sided story.......


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

Well I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, thats for sure...


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## ronhon (Oct 3, 2005)

Fifteen years ago when still in university, I watched a movie about how Japanese built cars. It is the fact that 95% of a Japanese car is assembled by robots. You hardly saw a guy in the assembly lines. the use of robots without doubt can manufacture highly precise products and avoid all kinds of human errors. Through automation, errors can be traced and fixed before left the production lines. This is how they build up reliable, high quality images. If you can compare between 91 and 92 Honda Civic, you will see the difference between man built and robot built. Because models after 92 are built in North America.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

ronhon said:


> Fifteen years ago when still in university, I watched a movie about how Japanese built cars. It is the fact that 95% of a Japanese car is assembled by robots. You hardly saw a guy in the assembly lines. the use of robots without doubt can manufacture highly precise products and avoid all kinds of human errors. Through automation, errors can be traced and fixed before left the production lines. This is how they build up reliable, high quality images. If you can compare between 91 and 92 Honda Civic, you will see the difference between man built and robot built. Because models after 92 are built in North America.


Thats pretty cool, I never kmew that..Learn something new everyday I guess.


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## icebladez (Aug 26, 2005)

If you can compare between 91 and 92 Honda Civic, you will see the difference between man built and robot built. Because models after 92 are built in North America.
----------------------
so is all post 1992 civics all robot made then or do i have this backwards,though i don't think i do..


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

It's the Accord that 1992 was the first year for the Marysville OH made cars. A friend's mom has one and it has problems with rust and many minor component failures and integrity problems indicative of teething problems of a new model.


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## adam5557 (Feb 27, 2005)

Here is my explanation that i got from my uncle who is an engineer/supervisor for gm. We have 3 corporations GMC,toyota, and hyundai.Well Gmc got all there parts from delphi which pays there workers 20-40 an hour and for a while they were the only competition so they could pay there workers that much and gmc could buy there parts from them.Now we have toyota and hyundai and they can get there parts from all foriegn countries which is cheaper. Then we have the truck/car assembly. Gmc pays high wages to there workers,but there workers need this money because they have a higher cost of living. Toyota and hyundai have there factories down in the south in places like texas and in small towns. They pay there workers 10-15 an hour on the assembly line. Now if you had a budget of say 20000 you are going to want to get as much as you can for your money. Toyota and hyundai give you as much bang for you buck because they can produce the car or truck for cheaper,while Gmc you are paying more to get the same car/truck so they arn't selling and are losing tons of $. I personally love chevy and there HD trucks because they are way better then hyundai or toyota,but the average consumer can only afford so much and therefore they go the cheaper route.Adam


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

*GM health care*

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=33580#

UAW Members Ratify Tentative Contract With GM That Increases Workers' Share of Health Costs 16 Nov 2005 (exercpts below)

The agreement, approved unanimously last month by local UAW leaders, would reduce GM retiree health care liability by about 25%, or $15 billion, and would reduce annual health care costs by about $3 billion. In addition, GM would contribute $1 billion annually in 2006, 2007 and 2011 to a Defined Contribution Voluntary Employee Benefit Association to offset the cost impact.

Under the agreement, active UAW employees would continue to receive health insurance at no cost but would have a small increase in prescription drug copayments. In addition, active employees would defer $1 per hour in future wage increases for the trust fund for retirees; in December 2006, employees would defer an additional two cents per hour each quarter for the fund (Kaiser Daily Health Policy Report, 11/11).


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## OneBadDodge06 (Sep 22, 2004)

rawfish said:


> It will be bigger than every other corporate bankruptcy ever filed in this country put together. Pleasant thought for the night about a company with debt obligations of $300 billion and only $20 billion in cash.
> 
> GM has so many resorces, and could put out great products but they need to cut pontiac, buick etc.....while toyota is putting 27 mil in R&D GM is only at 7 mil due to all of the worthless modles based on the same car ie pontiac GMAC. NOt only that the UAW has helped in the down fall of GM as well. GM was dumb to sign on and agree with contracts but the UAW pushed a bit too far and shot themselfs in the foot. Its very sad that there are workers going in at 8am and playing cards games all day and getting paid 13-19hr cause they are UAW but there are no jobs for them.
> 
> Your thoughts?


For shame you scab, and every one else with this mentallity, I call you scabs too.

I have brothers and sisters all over the midwest and the Great Lakes region who deserve the right to organize, bargain in good faith, and work their a$$es off every day to get what they have. Free trade is so horrid for this country. How many of you went to Wal Mart to go Christmas shopping? Any body know what the cost of labor goes in to a $11 shirt? Do you realize that for every boat China sends over, they all go back empty except for 1 that goes back with scrap paper or steel? Organized labor is the only reason why jobs stay here. For all you scabs out there, think about how many Mexicans for every one of you they can hire. Delphi wants to pay its workers $9 an hour which would put a family right at or below poverty. What ever happens to the UAW, will trickle down, Union or scab shop.


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## dirt digger (Feb 27, 2005)

TRUE TURF LAWN said:


> who cares its not like GM is going to fall the face of this earth. every thing will be fine it will just take some time for them to get back to whare they were. so all you need to settle down.


They're my dads biggest costumers...


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

*Outsourcing , offshoring and immigration*

Outsourcing, offshoring and immigration is doing for the computer folks what outsourcing does for labor... I see it every day.

Funny nobody says a peep about a million engineers or computer programmers out of work because their jobs went to India or some foreigner(scabs) here on an H1B work visa took their job. Thank you Bill Clinton and George W. Bush for giving away my job too. And frontrunners Hillary and McCain for supporting outsourcing and open immigration....

So you GM guys aren't the only ones screwed.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

blade_masters said:


> For shame you scab, and every one else with this mentallity, I call you scabs too.
> 
> I have brothers and sisters all over the midwest and the Great Lakes region who deserve the right to organize, bargain in good faith, and work their a$$es off every day to get what they have. Free trade is so horrid for this country. How many of you went to Wal Mart to go Christmas shopping? Any body know what the cost of labor goes in to a $11 shirt? Do you realize that for every boat China sends over, they all go back empty except for 1 that goes back with scrap paper or steel? Organized labor is the only reason why jobs stay here. For all you scabs out there, think about how many Mexicans for every one of you they can hire. Delphi wants to pay its workers $9 an hour which would put a family right at or below poverty. What ever happens to the UAW, will trickle down, Union or scab shop.


God Bless you Blade Master, I couldn't have said it better myself. I have made great money over the years working for GM, but I have worked my butt off on that line for 28 yrs. If anyone thinks 28 years on a line is not hard work you need to walk a day in the life of a line worker.

Regards Mike
Proud Member of UAW Local 594
Builders of World Class Full Size GM Trucks


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

sixspeed said:


> Outsourcing, offshoring and immigration is doing for the computer folks what outsourcing does for labor... I see it every day.
> 
> Funny nobody says a peep about a million engineers or computer programmers out of work because their jobs went to India or some foreigner(scabs) here on an H1B work visa took their job. Thank you Bill Clinton and George W. Bush for giving away my job too. And frontrunners Hillary and McCain for supporting outsourcing and open immigration....
> 
> So you GM guys aren't the only ones screwed.


Six Speed
I hate it when I call a tech support line only to find out that I'm talking to someone in India who can't speak english.:yow!: Damn that pisses me off.

Regards Mike


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

*GM CEO Secures $4.6 Million Pension*

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/28/102638.shtml

Quoted in the article"

"As General Motors slashes jobs, closes plants and battles to avoid bankruptcy, the company's CEO has set up a retirement plan that will pay him at least $4.6 million a year - nearly twice his current salary.

G. Richard Wagoner, who the New York Post calls "the greediest, most undeserving CEO since Chainsaw Al Dunlap," was named GM's chief financial officer in 1992, when the company had a global payroll of 750,000 employees.

Under Wagoner's command as CFO and, since 2000, CEO, the carmaker has seen its employees dwindle to 324,000."

it's good to see both the so-called "conservative" media such as NewsMax and the New York Post and the so-called "liberal" mainstream media coming together here.


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## hemi2008 (Nov 30, 2005)

*prices/trucks*

Yota and Gmc,Chevy,Dodge ect.. is night and day. How can you compare. I have never seen a yota pull a 23,000 pound goose neck. Ive seen a Dodge do it. I have seen a Chevy do it. So its all about what you need. Lets say the average person that wants a truck sure a chevy or dodge 1500 is nice. But not for 38,000 dollars. Then for us guys with the heavy duty trucks. 42,000 50,000. Thats an outrage for a truck that is just going to get beat to death working. But here in Georgia dont know if its the same up north. A 2006 Chevy 2500 hd 4x4 ext.cab 6.0 gas is going for 30,000. fully loaded leather and all. Thats a good deal if you ask me. But thats what it will take to sell these trucks. I think that maybe if they will lower prices like they have been they will sell more which will help make up. But i dont know. What i do know is that it sucks. I have a Dodge. But growing up the old man always had a GMC TRUCK.
Mike


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