# Residential snow removal worth it?



## specializedpest

Our company is currently looking to offer residential snow plowing services. Probably a lot of small jobs. Are people willing to pay for the service and what are they willing to pay? Anyone with experience doing residential snow plowing that can give me some positives and negatives and advice and what equipment you use for it? Thanks


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## redman6565

when you say removal, you don't mean plowing the drive way do you? a lot of poeple throw around the term removal when they mean plowing.

and no, not that i've experienced. for the few residential's we used to do, they always expected us to stack the snow but would never pay us to remove it.


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## grandview

When you say company,do you mean you have a few trucks or you and one truck?


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## specializedpest

I have one truck with a plow but several others that could be used for hauling blowers and shovel crews to residentials, also have some ATV's and UTV's that I could put plows on?


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## merrimacmill

Around here residential is very easy to get yourself into. When I first started out I put an add on craigslist and got 15 driveways in the first week. Now, I constantly get calls for residential driveways but I no longer do any residential so I have to turn them down. 

There is money in it as long as you are charging right and can get a tight route. Having a really tight route is the best way to ensure your profitability, esp in the residential market since we aren't talking about a serious amount of money there. 

The reason I no longer do it is because with how my company is set up its just not worth it to me anymore. I have almost as much equipment (tractors w/loaders and skid steers) as I do trucks. I have a hard time pulling myself away from a $45,000 commercial account to go plow Ms. Jones $35 dollar driveway... Naturally my commercial stuff began to take high priority over my residential customers and I just did not think it was fair to them to be paying top dollar when I had much bigger priorities than them. At that point I found a local guy and referred them all to him. But I found starting out in the resi market to really be the only way to get in the game of commercial stuff. After the first season of being in business I dropped all but 2 driveways (which were owned by people we plow commercial lots for). 

But I know several guys with one truck and a plow that will pull 25K in a season doing residential alone on a good winter. 

Wait till November or whenever your winter really starts there and put adds on craigslist, flyers with tear off phone numbers in pizza shops and markets, news paper ad in the business directory. Also if you want to get real serious and target a specific area, use direct mail. Also, make sure you have all these ads in place when the first big storm hits. You will be sure to get a lot of calls then.


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## Neige

redman6565;1063176 said:


> when you say removal, you don't mean plowing the drive way do you? a lot of poeple throw around the term removal when they mean plowing.
> 
> and no, not that i've experienced. for the few residential's we used to do, they always expected us to stack the snow but would never pay us to remove it.





grandview;1063182 said:


> When you say company,do you mean you have a few trucks or you and one truck?


When you say truck, do you mean a 4x4 3/4 ton pickup. Sorry could not help myself, yes there is money in residential, in my market it pays better than commercial.


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## Matson Snow

You should look into joining SIMA......They have great info there....They also have a GREAT webnar on residential plowing By some guy...I think his name was Neige..You should check it out..Very useful info....:salute:


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## IMAGE

For resi's to be profitable you need a very tight service area.


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## SServices

I'm not too sure how it is in other areas, but in the twp I work for and some other surrounding community's the local govt does a "senior plow program". The city or twp is divided into different zones and they contract plowing driveways out for qualified senior citizens. Its only opening up driveways ( no sidewalks) just open it up and go. Each contractor depending on their size can average between 10-30 drives. Last year it was $10 a drive, again though just to open the drive. Its a safety thing so if emergency services need to get into the home, or if they have a care taker, etc. I the trigger was 4", they usually called the contractors out around 9am, by then all of their main accounts were done.


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## jlouki01

I used to turn residential's away. After getting some years under my belt plowing comerrcial and expanding out to 4 trucks etc. I have decided I would much rather do driveways some days than commercial properties.

What I like about residential driveways:

1. Easy. 15-20 with a nice single stage blower.
2. Most pay on the spot. ( find a commercial customer to do that )
3. I like helping people. I ended up with a lot of seniors who turned into green customers very easily. 
4. Hardly any equipment on the ground. I make a lot more margin on drives than on commercial lots.
5. Did I mention I get paid immediately in most cases? 

I charge 60.00 for a small two car drive. That gets you real clean and a half bag of ice melt. Never one time last year did I get any haggling on price. If you show up do a good job it wouldn't be hard to make a decent wage doing driveways. I know as a business with a lot of overhead I look towards the residential portion of my business for more and more work these days.


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## JayD2

jlouki01;1065050 said:


> I used to turn residential's away. After getting some years under my belt plowing comerrcial and expanding out to 4 trucks etc. I have decided I would much rather do driveways some days than commercial properties.
> 
> What I like about residential driveways:
> 
> 1. Easy. 15-20 with a nice single stage blower.
> 2. Most pay on the spot. ( find a commercial customer to do that )
> 3. I like helping people. I ended up with a lot of seniors who turned into green customers very easily.
> 4. Hardly any equipment on the ground. I make a lot more margin on drives than on commercial lots.
> 5. Did I mention I get paid immediately in most cases?
> 
> I charge 60.00 for a small two car drive. That gets you real clean and a half bag of ice melt. Never one time last year did I get any haggling on price. If you show up do a good job it wouldn't be hard to make a decent wage doing driveways. I know as a business with a lot of overhead I look towards the residential portion of my business for more and more work these days.


I like you input! I was wondering also, do you change any pricing if the snow is deeper? Or how about when you get there and the plow truck has been by and now you have a mound of snow at the end of the driveway?

Thanks,


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## ajslands

Matson Snow;1063329 said:


> You should look into joining SIMA......They have great info there....They also have a GREAT webnar on residential plowing By some guy...I think his name was Neige..You should check it out..Very useful info....:salute:


Dam straight.


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## oil2k6

I am new to the forum, and in Canada, but I concentrate solely on residential. Tight route, all customers pay flat monthly removal rate (average start price is $150 per month for sidewalk and walk to front door, driveways and back yards extra.) One guy can easily handle 30 - 35 accounts on a tight route within a reasonable amount of time. Overhead is basic, only equipment that is regularly used is shovels and scrapers. All clients pay to play, that is all accounts are settled at the beginning of each month or no removal happens. I have found it to be a very enjoyable side business, and advertising is simple. Basic flyers to homeowners, tear off flyers in public places, kijiji and craigslist. Phone local landscaping companies for quotes in potential neighborhoods to get a starting price for your service. Identify your target neighborhood carefully (higher income + education level, well-established seniors areas, etc.)


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## JayD2

oil2k6;1070060 said:


> I am new to the forum, and in Canada, but I concentrate solely on residential. Tight route, all customers pay flat monthly removal rate (average start price is $150 per month for sidewalk and walk to front door, driveways and back yards extra.) One guy can easily handle 30 - 35 accounts on a tight route within a reasonable amount of time. Overhead is basic, only equipment that is regularly used is shovels and scrapers. All clients pay to play, that is all accounts are settled at the beginning of each month or no removal happens. I have found it to be a very enjoyable side business, and advertising is simple. Basic flyers to homeowners, tear off flyers in public places, kijiji and craigslist. Phone local landscaping companies for quotes in potential neighborhoods to get a starting price for your service. Identify your target neighborhood carefully (higher income + education level, well-established seniors areas, etc.)


Good input! Do you use shovels on driveways or something else?


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## lawn king

We don't plow driveways, however, on the last service of the season (lawn) my clients receive mention on a lawn instruction sheet. If they find themselves overwhelmed with snow piles, we will come remove them. This leads to some substantial revenues on a heavy snow winter & makes you a valuable (year round) asset to the client!


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## theplowmeister

lawn king;1070401 said:


> We don't plow driveways, however, on the last service of the season (lawn) my clients receive mention on a lawn instruction sheet. If they find themselves overwhelmed with snow piles, we will come remove them. This leads to some substantial revenues on a heavy snow winter & makes you a valuable (year round) asset to the client!


So you truck the snow away "on call" where do you take the snow?


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## lawn king

theplowmeister;1070433 said:


> So you truck the snow away "on call" where do you take the snow?


Most of the time i can dump for free on an associates commercial property, if that fills up i pay @ a snow dump in weymouth ma.


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## oil2k6

Only use shovels. When you factor in load/unload times, shovels work way faster than and throwers can.


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## JayD2

ajslands;1068434 said:


> Dam straight.


OK, I know this may sound stupid, but what is SIMA?


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## RLM

Snow & Ice Management Association= SIMA


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## JayD2

RLM;1071979 said:


> Snow & Ice Management Association= SIMA


Oh, I see, thanks RLM, I will look that up. Have any ideal what it cost to join off the top of your head?

Thanks,


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## RLM

It's a tiered fee, I know under 250 (I think) is $ 170, they do run periodic specials or refer a member get $ 50 off


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## cold_and_tired

I have a buddy that does purely residential. Him and his crew do about 300 driveways. He makes better a better profit percentage than I do with commercial but he also has 300 different bosses expecting 300 different things. 

By doing commercial, I have fewer than 10 different bosses and they all expect the same thing. I do have 110 driveways but they are all through a single HOA.

I would rather not deal with "you hit my driveway lights" or "you ran over my flower bed".


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## JayD2

cold_and_tired;1072186 said:


> I have a buddy that does purely residential. Him and his crew do about 300 driveways. He makes better a better profit percentage than I do with commercial but he also has 300 different bosses expecting 300 different things.
> 
> By doing commercial, I have fewer than 10 different bosses and they all expect the same thing. I do have 110 driveways but they are all through a single HOA.
> 
> I would rather not deal with "you hit my driveway lights" or "you ran over my flower bed".


Oh man!!!! Your right about that.....I HATE mowing around those stupid things!


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## procut

With my tight residential rate I make about as much or more per hour than plowing commercial. A lot of guys don't want to mess with them, but residential can be big money if done right.


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## JayD2

procut;1072316 said:


> With my tight residential rate I make about as much or more per hour than plowing commercial. A lot of guys don't want to mess with them, but residential can be big money if done right.


How do you guys handle residential?

Do you have it set up to just go when it snows or do you have to wait until they call you?

How early can you start say if it snows in the midinght hours?


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## lumps

I used to do a combination of per-push and seasonal for residential. Never waited until they called, because that destroys your route and you end up backtracking all over the place.

I switched over to all seasonal. Yes, you can make good money on a heavy winter with per push, but you also lose on a light winter. But the main reason is borderline snowfalls. Say your agreed upon trigger is 3". You get a 2 1/2" snowfall. What I've found is that if you go out and plow, half your customers will ***** and not want to pay because we never got 3". If you don't go out, the other half will ***** because there's snow in the driveway. With seasonal, I go out and plow when I feel it needs to be done. They get better service, I get less headaches.


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## JayD2

lumps;1072407 said:


> I used to do a combination of per-push and seasonal for residential. Never waited until they called, because that destroys your route and you end up backtracking all over the place.
> 
> I switched over to all seasonal. Yes, you can make good money on a heavy winter with per push, but you also lose on a light winter. But the main reason is borderline snowfalls. Say your agreed upon trigger is 3". You get a 2 1/2" snowfall. What I've found is that if you go out and plow, half your customers will ***** and not want to pay because we never got 3". If you don't go out, the other half will ***** because there's snow in the driveway. With seasonal, I go out and plow when I feel it needs to be done. They get better service, I get less headaches.


Very good points.....Thanks


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## Neige

Hey Jayd2,
I am not tooting my own horn, but you may want to check this out.




We like residential snow so much we bought out another competitor, adding another 750 drives to our list of clients. If you work it right and service them well, with a clear snow response plan, you will limit the number of calls you get. It can work very nicely for you.
Joining SIMA will be a big +, lots of good info there. You can always give me a call, I will gladly answer your questions.
Paul


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## gd8boltman

*Our Company has over the last seven years*

shifted both our mindset and equipment towards a larger base of residential oppurtunities. We due our due diligence and target specific areas and gear our mailers towards properties with a minimum assessed value at $250K and above. We rely heavily on referrals, and look at how to provide a high level of service with an agressive price to provide value to the client and profits for us. In all honesty, we have generated a higher margin of profit with our residential offerings than commercial routes over the last two years as we have gained efficiencies, and have added fill in clients within the route. As with anything, balance is important, and the right equipment needs to be utilized to maximize profits for us and keep costs to our clients as reasonable as possible. I think for us going forward, we will further concentrate our efforts towards residential oppurtunities.


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## JayD2

Neige;1072459 said:


> Hey Jayd2,
> I am not tooting my own horn, but you may want to check this out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We like residential snow so much we bought out another competitor, adding another 750 drives to our list of clients. If you work it right and service them well, with a clear snow response plan, you will limit the number of calls you get. It can work very nicely for you.
> Joining SIMA will be a big +, lots of good info there. You can always give me a call, I will gladly answer your questions.
> Paul


Thanks Neigi, that looks like something that even I being a new guy with little to work with can use...


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## lawn king

procut;1072316 said:


> With my tight residential rate I make about as much or more per hour than plowing commercial. A lot of guys don't want to mess with them, but residential can be big money if done right.


I agree, you can make a ton of money on residentials, but can you take the pain?


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## Grassman09

JayD2;1071959 said:


> OK, I know this may sound stupid, but what is SIMA?


Save your money. Not worth it. You will just get a bunch of junk emails from there vendors. As far as partnering you up with a mentor to help you out and to bounce info off of. They will prob set you up with someone in a total diff region and market. Every webinar cost you $$.

I never received any info from my mentor and he was in a part of Canada that hardly receives any snow. Save your money keep asking questions here and talk to Neige allot.


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## Brian Young

Neige;1063306 said:


> When you say truck, do you mean a 4x4 3/4 ton pickup. Sorry could not help myself, yes there is money in residential, in my market it pays better than commercial.


Neige, with the size and looks of your fleet, its clear you have absolutely no idea what your talking about.  Yes often times there is more money in residential than commercial. As far as pricing.....the number's are all over the place. I've seen them as low as 7.00 per plow up to 25-30 per plow both for an average 2 car, 4 car deep driveway in our area. We tried to get several home owners in a couple subdivisions at a lower rate, NEVER AGAIN! You get the luxury of hearing the same complaints as if you were charging them top dollar.


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## Neige

Grassman09;1073178 said:


> Save your money. Not worth it. You will just get a bunch of junk emails from there vendors. As far as partnering you up with a mentor to help you out and to bounce info off of. They will prob set you up with someone in a total diff region and market. Every webinar cost you $$.
> 
> I never received any info from my mentor and he was in a part of Canada that hardly receives any snow. Save your money keep asking questions here and talk to Neige allot.


Grassman I just have a few questions. Did you ever ask your SIMA buddy any questions? Have you ever attended a symposium? build a bid? webinar? Snow Strategies Forum? go on line and read the white papers? read about the production rates, contracts etc? Read the monthly Snow Drift articles? or the Tip of the Month emails? Go to Goplow.com? I am sorry you have had a bad experience, you know you can always give me a call and I will try and help you out. I do give lots of info on this site, ( lots of time to much for my partners comfort) but to members of SIMA I give loads more. As for the emails there was an issue with one vendor who's email list got infected causing loads of junk mail. SIMA does not give vendors email lists, I know first hand because I am also a vendor and have no access to the list. As for the price of membership the cost for a category 1 under 250 grand snow revenue is $180.00, use JD Dave as a reference and get $50 off + a jacket. As far as associations goes that's a small price to pay, for the oppertunity to get so much information, and chance to learn so much more. You will get nothing out of SIMA if you put nothing in. Maybe I should have worded this differently, and asked what could SIMA have done to have made it worthwhile?


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## plowatnight

Brian Young;1073180 said:


> Neige, with the size and looks of your fleet, its clear you have absolutely no idea what your talking about.  Yes often times there is more money in residential than commercial. As far as pricing.....the number's are all over the place. I've seen them as low as 7.00 per plow up to 25-30 per plow both for an average 2 car, 4 car deep driveway in our area. We tried to get several home owners in a couple subdivisions at a lower rate, NEVER AGAIN! You get the luxury of hearing the same complaints as if you were charging them top dollar.


I don't know B Y, I think Neige knows his stuff. I'm small time Resi. and HOA. I'd like to think that I have a smaller version of Neige's operation, It seems very efficient.


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## Neige

plowatnight;1073279 said:


> I don't know B Y, I think Neige knows his stuff. I'm small time Resi. and HOA. I'd like to think that I have a smaller version of Neige's operation, It seems very efficient.


Thanks plowatnight, I will take Brian Young s example of $7 bucks a drive, my equipment will do 50 of those an hour, so making $350.00/hr. thats excellent coin in my books.


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## Brian Young

plowatnight;1073279 said:


> I don't know B Y, I think Neige knows his stuff. I'm small time Resi. and HOA. I'd like to think that I have a smaller version of Neige's operation, It seems very efficient.


Dude it was a joke. His operation is awesome, sorry for the confusion.


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## buckwheat_la

Brian Young;1073180 said:


> Neige, with the size and looks of your fleet, its clear you have absolutely no idea what your talking about.  Yes often times there is more money in residential than commercial. As far as pricing.....the number's are all over the place. I've seen them as low as 7.00 per plow up to 25-30 per plow both for an average 2 car, 4 car deep driveway in our area. We tried to get several home owners in a couple subdivisions at a lower rate, NEVER AGAIN! You get the luxury of hearing the same complaints as if you were charging them top dollar.


Doesn't look like sarcasim AT ALL "wink wink"


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## Brian Young

buckwheat_la;1073442 said:


> Doesn't look like sarcasim AT ALL "wink wink"


Thanks, at least some one gets my humor,lol


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## Neige

Brian Young;1073465 said:


> Thanks, at least some one gets my humor,lol


LOL I got it to Brian. Have a great weekend evryone.


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## plowatnight

Neige;1073349 said:


> Thanks plowatnight, I will take Brian Young s example of $7 bucks a drive, my equipment will do 50 of those an hour, so making $350.00/hr. thats excellent coin in my books.


My example is 6 drives and walks @ $45 per and takes 1and 1/4 hrs. Roughly $250 hr. w/ my New Holland TC 34 "boomer" These are Summer customers, I pretty much have "Carte Blanche" w/ these people. I have other clumps and HOA's where my average isn't quite as good, But I don't like to complain.


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## oman1999

I really enjoy the benefits of residential.

My company is 75% residential work. I am also on-call as a fill-in / emergency subcontractor for 3 other companies. If I have equipment and time available I'll lend a hand on a set hourly rate per truck.

I currently run (3) F250 diesel / auto trucks. I have modified them as purpose-built for snow work. 2 western unimount pro plows and 1 snow-way w/ DP.

Most of what I currently do is repair and prepping plow-trucks for the 3 companies I sub. for. If you work on plows and trucks, you will eventually own a few yourself. I like residential work mostly for the lower amount of equipment required. My driveways average around $32.00 per visit with the second visit averaging $20.00 if needed for clean-ups, etc.

I can do approximately 8-10 drives per hour and the routes are 5-7 hours from start to finish. Add it up and it's close to $300.00 an hour for (1) truck, (1) driver and a lot more time to get the job done.

We generally have our first visit by 8am if the snow accumulates three inches by 2am. Otherwise it's 4pm the same day. Plus I get a ton of one-timers and out of towners for the next 2 days after an event. They pay up-front and a higher rate than our contracted customers. 

My route only requires two trucks. Usually me and my foreman with one other driver on-call for emergencies or to lend a hand.

Rarely do sidewalks, but we will on a per-case basis. ie: disability, senior citizen, etc.


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## JayD2

oman1999;1073950 said:


> I really enjoy the benefits of residential.
> 
> My company is 75% residential work. I am also on-call as a fill-in / emergency subcontractor for 3 other companies. If I have equipment and time available I'll lend a hand on a set hourly rate per truck.
> 
> I currently run (3) F250 diesel / auto trucks. I have modified them as purpose-built for snow work. 2 western unimount pro plows and 1 snow-way w/ DP.
> 
> Most of what I currently do is repair and prepping plow-trucks for the 3 companies I sub. for. If you work on plows and trucks, you will eventually own a few yourself. I like residential work mostly for the lower amount of equipment required. My driveways average around $32.00 per visit with the second visit averaging $20.00 if needed for clean-ups, etc.
> 
> I can do approximately 8-10 drives per hour and the routes are 5-7 hours from start to finish. Add it up and it's close to $300.00 an hour for (1) truck, (1) driver and a lot more time to get the job done.
> 
> We generally have our first visit by 8am if the snow accumulates three inches by 2am. Otherwise it's 4pm the same day. Plus I get a ton of one-timers and out of towners for the next 2 days after an event. They pay up-front and a higher rate than our contracted customers.
> 
> My route only requires two trucks. Usually me and my foreman with one other driver on-call for emergencies or to lend a hand.
> 
> Rarely do sidewalks, but we will on a per-case basis. ie: disability, senior citizen, etc.


$32 bucks for drive ways? I thought they pay more than that. What size are they, two or three car wide by two car long maybe?

No side walks? you just don't want to do them or people just not want to pay to have it done?

Also, the fords work out pretty good for ya? That's next on my list to get.


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## grass.gauchos

We run four trucks all with plows and two of those handle primarily residential, one of the routes covers over 30 stops in about 3.5-4hrs and we charge $35 per stop. I would say it is worth it, but you need both commercial and residential to cover your ass if it's a bad winter.


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## JayD2

grass.gauchos;1074375 said:


> We run four trucks all with plows and two of those handle primarily residential, one of the routes covers over 30 stops in about 3.5-4hrs and we charge $35 per stop. I would say it is worth it, but you need both commercial and residential to cover your ass if it's a bad winter.


man that's nice....I am just starting out with the snow mainly because a lot off my mowing customers have been asking me to. I don't have trucks with plows, it will have to be done with blowers and shovels for now. Still trying to figure out what to charge though. So many different size driveways and a lot of my customers live on corners so there sidewalks are pretty long.

I have to admit, I have a lot more respect for you snow plow guys, after reading for about two weeks now on here, I never knew how much you guys have to deal with not to mention the cost of this equipment....My God, you guys have some really big toys...ussmileyflag


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## grass.gauchos

The truck that does a lot of residential has couple of snowblowers in it that we use on a bunch of drives as well, they're all suburban driveways probably 2 maybe 3 car lengths and not much wider. If it's one man with a blower I figure they can usually be out of there in 7-8 minutes and 5-6 with two men. I would say start with snowblowers, that's how I started, just me and one snowblower, no plows and that was just four years ago. Also in this area there isn't much space to put the snow so snowblowers become the best option and not many guys want to put up with all that work in the cold so we can charge what we want, I just try to keep rates reasonable and not be greedy.


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## shooterm

I'm still debating if I even should bother with a couple more residentials. I plow at night with a new company this year so dont even know yet if I'll have time for a few more.


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## plowatnight

Brian Young;1073354 said:


> Dude it was a joke. His operation is awesome, sorry for the confusion.


 well look B Y, I kinda thought you were kidding, and you might be surpised, I DO have a sense of humor (I'm considered a mart azz myself) I was thrown off by your dislike of resi. snow removal. It just my opinion, but dumping all of my business plowing and going strictly resi was the BEST thing I ever did. It really suits my lifestyle and personality. I'm very respectful AND thankful however for the guys who do commercial plowing though. This makes if possible for my wife to have and parking spot at WORK ! ! ! !


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## oman1999

JayD2;1073969 said:


> $32 bucks for drive ways? I thought they pay more than that. What size are they, two or three car wide by two car long maybe?
> 
> No side walks? you just don't want to do them or people just not want to pay to have it done?
> 
> Also, the fords work out pretty good for ya? That's next on my list to get.


Side-walks are a crazy waste of time. We charge extra for walks, most people around here are used to a little shoveling work. Or minimum charge to drop the blade on a driveway is 25.00 for a 2 car wide and 1.5 car long standard subdivision driveway.

Most of the drives around here are $35.00 per push as they are a little longer, and have a third garage. More time = more money.

I've run every one of the big three. I'm partial to fords for the durability of engine and transmissions. Currently running 7.3 IDI and C6 transmissions. Excellent for plowing, not the greatest for anything else but I love how cheap and simple they are for repairs.

I'm more than happy to shovel and sidewalk and stoop. We aren't in the city so people aren't required to shovel there walks.


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## Grassman09

Neige;1073227 said:


> Grassman I just have a few questions. Did you ever ask your SIMA buddy any questions? Have you ever attended a symposium? build a bid? webinar? Snow Strategies Forum? go on line and read the white papers? read about the production rates, contracts etc? Read the monthly Snow Drift articles? or the Tip of the Month emails? Go to Goplow.com? I am sorry you have had a bad experience, you know you can always give me a call and I will try and help you out. I do give lots of info on this site, ( lots of time to much for my partners comfort) but to members of SIMA I give loads more. As for the emails there was an issue with one vendor who's email list got infected causing loads of junk mail. SIMA does not give vendors email lists, I know first hand because I am also a vendor and have no access to the list. As for the price of membership the cost for a category 1 under 250 grand snow revenue is $180.00, use JD Dave as a reference and get $50 off + a jacket. As far as associations goes that's a small price to pay, for the oppertunity to get so much information, and chance to learn so much more. You will get nothing out of SIMA if you put nothing in. Maybe I should have worded this differently, and asked what could SIMA have done to have made it worthwhile?


Paul,

No I never asked my buddy any questions. Why would I ask someone in Vancouver about snow strategies in Toronto Ontario? What do they know about snow here. I could pay less and ask my family members that live in B.C. if I wanted to know about snow in B.C.

I know nothing about snow drift articles or tip of the month emails etc etc. Only emails I got were on pre season sales on snow pushers BAT snow pusher GPS software for my trucks. I visits this site and LTS, I personally don't think there is a need for more snow forums.
When I was a member the only build a bid was in Albany USA that is a little far. I know now they have some at Landscape Ontario headquarters here.

I do know about the $50 off I did use JD's name before. If it was only the $180 that would be fine but if you want any more info you have to pay to play. My membership fees are just so I can get junk email from them and a magazine that is a month non current in the mail.

I know you have to defend SIMA because you are a member that's fine I understand that. I would be curious to know how many contractors have been asked by there clients if they are SIMA members and if they were not members did they not get the contract due to that. Do the companies that hire snow contractors even know what SIMA is about.

How does SIMA help someone who strictly does residential? Do you think home owners ask if they are members? I do not even get asked if I have insurance by my residential clients. Residential is all about price and what will you do for that price.

Paul I should give you the $180 - $50 if I say that I know of JD Dave as me and you have spoke a number of times about residential snow clearing. I have friends here who are SIMA members and I talk with them occasionally, but they did not become successful just because they joined SIMA.

SIMA needs to be more evolved in Canada and not 99% us and writing a test in Milton to become a CSP and L.O. doesn't count. Provide more free seminars or webinars and not charge me $200+ when I can listen to your speech free on Utube.

What small timer who is just starting to get there feet wet in the snow business can afford SIMA and all its fees for everything. I would like to hear from someone who started out really small and joined SIMA and by joining has become a huge snow contractor.

Where was the last snow symposium from SIMA in Canada? Do they know we get summer here and do not live in Igloo's and eat seal fat? Contrary to popular belief.

It's just not the end all be all.


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## Neige

Grassman09;1074921 said:


> Paul,
> 
> No I never asked my buddy any questions. Why would I ask someone in Vancouver about snow strategies in Toronto Ontario? What do they know about snow here. I could pay less and ask my family members that live in B.C. if I wanted to know about snow in B.C.
> 
> Its to bad you never called her, she has an amazing business. I kid you not, she is a wealth of information when it comes to the snow industry. By the way, her company is a snow only business, she has to be doing something right.
> 
> I know nothing about snow drift articles or tip of the month emails etc etc. Only emails I got were on pre season sales on snow pushers BAT snow pusher GPS software for my trucks. I visits this site and LTS, I personally don't think there is a need for more snow forums.
> 
> Snow drifts and the tip of the month emails, you need to sign up for. Its free to all members, and you can read all the back issues when you log in on the SIMA site. Again SIMA does not give out any ones emails. That being said, anyone can go on the SIMA website and look up who is a member. If you have your website listed with your contact info, anyone can then go to your website and get your email info. This becomes a catch 22, potential clients can find you, and so can vendors. As for the need for another forum, I have to agree with you, there are plenty already. I do believe that the SIMA one, is just another tool to help members and potential members to connect.
> 
> When I was a member the only build a bid was in Albany USA that is a little far. I know now they have some at Landscape Ontario headquarters here.
> 
> Yep LO has been doing it for a few years now, I am actually attending the LO one in Ottawa tomorrow.
> 
> I do know about the $50 off I did use JD's name before. If it was only the $180 that would be fine but if you want any more info you have to pay to play. My membership fees are just so I can get junk email from them and a magazine that is a month non current in the mail.
> 
> That is certainly one way to look at it. There is plenty of free info on the members website, contracts, production numbers etc. Networking with other members, can be very beneficial. They have contests that cost nothing, but give you chances to win webinars, free videos. Last year, and in the years to come there will be the Alan Steiman Symposium Scholarship, where someone who has never attended a symposium wins an all expense paid trip to attend the symposium. As for the Snow business magazine, are you saying you gets yours a month late?
> 
> I know you have to defend SIMA because you are a member that's fine I understand that. I would be curious to know how many contractors have been asked by there clients if they are SIMA members and if they were not members did they not get the contract due to that. Do the companies that hire snow contractors even know what SIMA is about.
> 
> Dave just because I am a member does not mean I need to defend it. I defend SIMA because I have learned lots from being a member. I had been in the snow business for 35 years before I became a member. Since becoming a member I have made significant changes to how I run my business from what I learned in SIMA. The best example is I used to run my snow business with a negative cash flow. Now come mid October I pretty much have enough cash flow to complete the season. I have lots more, maybe another time when I have more time. You are absolutly right not one of my clients knows what SIMA is. What I do is educate them on what it is. Most are surprised that I travel to a symposium every year to learn everything I can to whats new in the industry. It shows them that I am serious about my business. Sure most think its just a business expense to have fun and get away. I use my membership to sell my company, and it works for some. The others may not care, but it still gives me something my competitors don't have.
> 
> How does SIMA help someone who strictly does residential? Do you think home owners ask if they are members? I do not even get asked if I have insurance by my residential clients. Residential is all about price and what will you do for that price.
> 
> I think SIMA can help in any aspect of the snow industry. SIMA is working hard in adding more residential info, for those members. I am not sure if it makes any difference to the residential client if you are a member or not, probably not. But I think you can still work it to your advantage, if your competitors are not. I agree 100% if all you do is put a sticker on your truck, or the SIMA logo on your letter head, it will give you nothing more.
> 
> Paul I should give you the $180 - $50 if I say that I know of JD Dave as me and you have spoke a number of times about residential snow clearing. I have friends here who are SIMA members and I talk with them occasionally, but they did not become successful just because they joined SIMA.
> 
> I was a successful business, before I became a member. I have become a more successful business since I joined. Some of that success has not been tested yet, but the way I have reworded some of my contracts, I have become better protected from being sued.
> 
> SIMA needs to be more evolved in Canada and not 99% us and writing a test in Milton to become a CSP and L.O. doesn't count. Provide more free seminars or webinars and not charge me $200+ when I can listen to your speech free on Utube.
> 
> Again SIMA is always a work in progress. Two years ago they came out with the Canadian version of the CSP modules and exam. As for the free stuff you are asking for, webinars, symposiums, build a bids and more cost money to make, or host. As far as membership fees goes, I do not know of any other association with such inexpesive fees. I belong to two others, and SIMA is 1/3 the price, and the others I still need to pay for seminars. Yes I did a 75 minute webinar for the members of SIMA, and the cost was $100. I have been told that it was great, I am only to happy to help members succeed.
> 
> What small timer who is just starting to get there feet wet in the snow business can afford SIMA and all its fees for everything. I would like to hear from someone who started out really small and joined SIMA and by joining has become a huge snow contractor.
> 
> Where was the last snow symposium from SIMA in Canada? Do they know we get summer here and do not live in Igloo's and eat seal fat? Contrary to popular belief.
> 
> It's just not the end all be all.


Dave there have been none held in Canada, it is being considered. Yes they know we do not live in igloo s and eat seal fat. Two years ago SIMA s president was a Canadian from Ontario.
Lastly I agree with you that its not the end all be all. I am truly sorry you had a bad experience. I just wanted to let others know, my experiance with SIMA. I have total respect for you Dave, and you know I will continue to be available to you whether you are a member or not.
Paul


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## bugthug

so no seal meat from mcdonalds in Canada?


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## Grassman09

Neige;1075383 said:


> Dave there have been none held in Canada, it is being considered. Yes they know we do not live in igloo s and eat seal fat. Two years ago SIMA s president was a Canadian from Ontario.
> Lastly I agree with you that its not the end all be all. I am truly sorry you had a bad experience. I just wanted to let others know, my experiance with SIMA. I have total respect for you Dave, and you know I will continue to be available to you whether you are a member or not.
> Paul


Ok thanks Paul.  I'm just not sold on SIMA yet. I'll just leave it at that for the time being. Maybe u can sell it to me over dinner sometime courtesy of sima. I know a great restaurant to go to. Beer is cold and the women are hot.


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