# how to go about pricing commerical properties, long island New York



## bdriverbenjamin (Aug 26, 2016)

new member here, been doing residential snow removal for a few years now nothing crazy just regular basic services, an opportunity has risen where i can get the ability to do this restaurant chains snow removal about 7 locations if i wanted them all, the biggest lot is maybe about an acre or so, just need help on how to go about pricing it and how to present it in a fashionable manner, and what are some things i can ask the managers about services, i do not know what the going rate is for commercial work, that's why i'm here, any help that could send me in the right direction would be helpful
equipment: 
brand new 2016 bobcat S650 with sno tech pusher 
1998 dodge ram 2500 
& will be going to look at getting an additional truck whether it happens to be new or used


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Where are you located? What is the plan with the sidewalks? Are you still going to do your residentials? How far apart are all these chains? It sounds like it would be a pretty spread out route to me.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Sounds like you should sub contract to get some commercial experience. It's a whole different ball game. Stick to residential or do some subcontracting on commercial for a couple seasons.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Commercial rates differ on your location. You say a opportunity has come your way? What type of service is your client requesting. Restaurants are high traffic flow area's can you get insured for this type of work? As JMH stated how far are these 7 locations apart and are sidewalks involved. Your not mentioning trigger levels, What about salt and can you store it, Do you have a dependable spreader? what about WC is your client requesting this?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

The bobcat, just leave it at the biggest lot. Pretty much what you have been asked already. How many employees do you have. You need to be fully insured. If we got a storm like last year, could you handle all your work in s respectable time, oh and welcome aboard.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG said:


> what about WC is your client requesting this?


The owner can opt-out of WC, by law


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> The owner can opt-out of WC, by law


Yes, I got to have it everywhere I go. I never had no one that didn't request it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG said:


> Yes, I got to have it everywhere I go. I never had no one that didn't request it.


 Opposite sides of the coin. Ive never had anyone request it of myself as the owner.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Your meaning the biz.property owner. Not a Contractor owner.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG said:


> Your meaning the biz.property owner. Not a Contractor owner.


As A business owner(s), any business owner, in this case, yes the contractor (a business owner) can opt out of being required to have wc on themselves.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes no ? I'm not on my comp policy. I was more referring to the biz owner requesting it for snow services from the contractor. If the contractor is a sole operation you would not need it either.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

The client can request that the employes of the companey they are hiring be covered by wc, to cya.

As a business owner, the owner can cover them selves ( have WC) but,,, by law they can opt out, and not have WC coverage on themselves.

Could this cause an issue with a client , sure, but educating them on the law may appease them.
Or it may not.

There are loop holes, like listing your right arm guy on your llc as a owner.
I gave him a 1% share that would be revoked when he left or was fired.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I have a very small business. But I do work for some very large companies, and some municipality's. I have to have complete insurance coverage, including W.C. it's just the price of doing business I guess. Just charge accordingly.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

As an example, the state of Arizona requires employers to cover all of their employees, even if those employees are corporate officers or directors or, in the case of a limited liability company, members. Florida requires businesses with four or more employees to provide coverage, but doesn't count exempted corporate officers. Minnesota requires every employer to cover every employee, even if they are undocumented. Massachusetts also requires total coverage of all employees.

*How Different Types of Businesses are Treated for the 
Purposes of Workers' Compensation Insurance Coverage
Type of Business* *Coverage Requirements*
Sole Proprietors Sole proprietors are not required to cover themselves but may opt into coverage by purchasing a policy.
Partnerships Partners are not required to cover themselves but may opt into coverage by purchasing a policy.
Corporations Owners of 20% or more of the outstanding voting stock of a corporation may opt out of coverage by filing a waiver form with the Workers' Compensation Board. This waiver must be approved or coverage is required.
Limited Liability Companies (LLC) Treated Like a Partnership
Limited Liability Partnerships (LLP) Treated Like a Partnership
Professional Associations (PA) Treated Like a Corporation
Professional Corporations (PC) Treated Like a Corporation
Propria Persona (PP) Treated Like a Sole Proprietor
Service Corporations (SC) Treated Like a Corporation


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I understand the point you are making. Mine is, the customer requirements are you have it. No discussions. If you don't. They will get someone else.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm sure some large corporations just assume that you are sending employees to to the work.
They can't regulate your states comp laws nor change whom is or is not covered.

Maybe a note citing your states law could clear things up.
Or having a much cheaper ins package you got on your own.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Nope, I do work for a very large company. They give you their required insurance coverage. You meet it or move on. It's just that simple. But I also make alot off of them, for me it works. Same as bidding municipality work. It's listed required in the bid, if it isn't there at the time there opened. It hits the circular file. All states are different. If I'm plowing Joe's dinner. He probably doesn't care. If I'm doing a Large mall complex. I'm sure they would want proof of all I insurance. Oh, and I'm in Jersey, there is no cheap insurance rates here. Unless you live here you really can't relate to it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Ho but I did plow for a national chain and I have worked for city . So yea
Well, idk, as the owner, they have never forced me to have WC.
Maybe it's the illinformed national or muni you work for.
As we know they never use a form contract.

So moving on based on that alone may not be the best decision.
Only a xxxx would sigen a contract without question.
All contracts are negationabel if not you dealing with somone who has littel to no respect for you or what you do.

But as you say and we know the laws vary from state to state,& so do your rights.


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## bdriverbenjamin (Aug 26, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> Where are you located? What is the plan with the sidewalks? Are you still going to do your residentials? How far apart are all these chains? It sounds like it would be a pretty spread out route to me.


Long Island, New York & the sidewalks will be handled with blower crew, this will basically for the most part just be within family & friends if needed the extra manpower, chains spread out probably over about a 30 mile radius all together, they're in 2 different counties, if I don't want all of them I don't have to take them, I'm being given the opportunity to pick & choose what I want, so I'd obviously choose the ones closest to me which is not far at all


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## bdriverbenjamin (Aug 26, 2016)

FredG said:


> Commercial rates differ on your location. You say a opportunity has come your way? What type of service is your client requesting. Restaurants are high traffic flow area's can you get insured for this type of work? As JMH stated how far are these 7 locations apart and are sidewalks involved. Your not mentioning trigger levels, What about salt and can you store it, Do you have a dependable spreader? what about WC is your client requesting this?


Im in Long Island, New York we acreage about 30 inches or so, but we do get hit with some storms that put people in a panic here & there, client has not requested anything specific, they've only asked me for a quote, I'm going to find out what they want as far as salt/sand, if I don't go about buying a spreader this season, outsourcing it, anything else I should ask?, sidewalks would be involved, those will be taken care of with blower/shovel, trigger level gonna put at 2", that's seems to be the going height


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

bdriverbenjamin said:


> Long Island, New York & the sidewalks will be handled with blower crew, this will basically for the most part just be within family & friends if needed the extra manpower, chains spread out probably over about a 30 mile radius all together, they're in 2 different counties, if I don't want all of them I don't have to take them, I'm being given the opportunity to pick & choose what I want, so I'd obviously choose the ones closest to me which is not far at all


Just a word of caution, it's extremely hard to mix friends/family and business. I understand needing to do it though. 30 miles is a long way for a route in the bad conditions. If you have a network of people you know I'd try to get them all and just sub some of them out.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Look at insurance first. You should have it for your residentials, but you for sure need it if you're doing commercial. Work comp for helpers, commercial for your truck (make sure plow is covered), and General liability.

Also just a side note, look into the snowplow shovels. The 3' ones saved us a TON of time last year. As we all know, time is money.

Good luck with everything. You'll learn a ton from this site.


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## bdriverbenjamin (Aug 26, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> Look at insurance first. You should have it for your residentials, but you for sure need it if you're doing commercial. Work comp for helpers, commercial for your truck (make sure plow is covered), and General liability.
> 
> Also just a side note, look into the snowplow shovels. The 3' ones saved us a TON of time last year. As we all know, time is money.
> 
> Good luck with everything. You'll learn a ton from this site.


Definitely insurance will be covered, seeing my options as far as that, keeping residential & the commercial separate, cost more but that's how I want it


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## bdriverbenjamin (Aug 26, 2016)

Still just need some help with the pricing aspect


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

For your pricing question, since you have been doing residential for some time, you should know your operating cost I assume. Talk to your insurance agent about a quote for the commercial insurance including slip and fall insurance as you can be held liable for a customer who falls in the parking lot you are responsible for. Once you have that from the insurance agent you add that to your operating cost. Once you have that set then you can figure how long it will take and go from there. One thing you don't want to do is charge less than what you are willing to do the work for just to get the job. You will be miserable if you do. Having your own business means you don't need to work for less than what you want to make, within reason. Out here in AZ we have it pretty easy. And yes we get snow, an average of 103" a year. We get 30" in a single storm at least two times a year. Anyway most commercials are used to paying hourly out here so it's easy to quote. The rate out here is between $75-$100 an hour for a HD truck with a plow. 75 if you have a straight blade, 100 if you have a nice V Blade like I do. Skid steers get around $85. Snow blowers are $65 an hour and I charge $40 per man hour for shoveling. Its traditional here to charge between one half hour and a full hour minimum for each trip depending on the size of the property. Hope this helps. Good luck and if they don't accept your quote move on to someone who does!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

bdriverbenjamin said:


> Im in Long Island, New York we acreage about 30 inches or so, but we do get hit with some storms that put people in a panic here & there, client has not requested anything specific, they've only asked me for a quote, I'm going to find out what they want as far as salt/sand, if I don't go about buying a spreader this season, outsourcing it, anything else I should ask?, sidewalks would be involved, those will be taken care of with blower/shovel, trigger level gonna put at 2", that's seems to be the going height





ktfbgb said:


> For your pricing question, since you have been doing residential for some time, you should know your operating cost I assume. Talk to your insurance agent about a quote for the commercial insurance including slip and fall insurance as you can be held liable for a customer who falls in the parking lot you are responsible for. Once you have that from the insurance agent you add that to your operating cost. Once you have that set then you can figure how long it will take and go from there. One thing you don't want to do is charge less than what you are willing to do the work for just to get the job. You will be miserable if you do. Having your own business means you don't need to work for less than what you want to make, within reason. Out here in AZ we have it pretty easy. And yes we get snow, an average of 103" a year. We get 30" in a single storm at least two times a year. Anyway most commercials are used to paying hourly out here so it's easy to quote. The rate out here is between $75-$100 an hour for a HD truck with a plow. 75 if you have a straight blade, 100 if you have a nice V Blade like I do. Skid steers get around $85. Snow blowers are $65 an hour and I charge $40 per man hour for shoveling. Its traditional here to charge between one half hour and a full hour minimum for each trip depending on the size of the property. Hope this helps. Good luck and if they don't accept your quote move on to someone who does!


Are you in flagstaff? Your rates are similar to mine.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> I have a very small business. But I do work for some very large companies, and some municipality's. I have to have complete insurance coverage, including W.C. it's just the price of doing business I guess. Just charge accordingly.


Same here if you don't have insurance requested including WC your out. They will just take somebody that does.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

bdriverbenjamin said:


> Still just need some help with the pricing aspect


It's been stated above, You have to figure your operating cost and time spent, Equipment cost even hourly and your pay check ( profits) You have to consider salting even if you sub it out. Keep in mind your subs are purchasing salt and storing it. Before you bid you should have your salting mans price.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

OK, just a quick price, for one acre site, that I do not no what's involved, 400.00. But here, there are so many people with plows. The illegals now are out on there own. They work for next to nothing. There's guys here in the summer, cut any lawn for 20.00 on the side of their truck. So if you get the point of many on here. We can't tell you exactly what you should charge. If you have to go purchase a lot of equipment for this you have to make the payment. Only you no your operations cost. And do not hire family/freinds. Bad idea.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

OP, Can you get a local guy to help you out with your pricing. Somebody that would not consider you a threat. You know a older guy that is well established. Throw him a bone if you have to. A guy that won't think your coming after him.

Honestly I would not want a guy to sub my ice control. Spreaders are not that large of a investment. There has been salt shortages many times I can remember.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

FredG said:


> Are you in flagstaff? Your rates are similar to mine.


Yep good ol Flagstaff. You familiar with the area?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes, Some family members retired to Phoenix. Nice drive phoenix to flagstaff specially on motorcycle quite a elevation change. Years ago trying to get back to NY one winter almost got stranded in Flagstaff. Lots of snow.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

FredG said:


> Yes, Some family members retired to Phoenix. Nice drive phoenix to flagstaff specially on motorcycle quite a elevation change. Years ago trying to get back to NY one winter almost got stranded in Flagstaff. Lots of snow.


Ya that can happen up here. I ride Harley's as well and you're right, this is one of the most amazing places to ride as far as I'm concerned. And if you are tired of highs in teens or twents in the winter Phienix is only a two hour drive away with highs in the 70's.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Not sure how to edit a post but I do know how to spell. It should be twenty's not twents and Phoenix not Phienix lol


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## MajorDave (Feb 4, 2011)

bdriver - where r u? I run from all 5 boroughs in NYC to Long Island.


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## Doin_It (Jul 22, 2008)

Back to your question. Since you'll be moving your machine around all night get a 8' plow box. On a nice open lot, not to many curbs or light poles you can clean about 1.5 acres per hour, if its messed up that'll drop to about an acre an hour. We bid by the acre/how long it takes. So on your acre one I'd say and hour of time, at what ever you've figured your costs to be. Sounds like with a truck and skid you could take them all on.


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## bdriverbenjamin (Aug 26, 2016)

MajorDave said:


> bdriver - where r u? I run from all 5 boroughs in NYC to Long Island.


I'm in Nassau


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## MajorDave (Feb 4, 2011)

Oh ok - we are close. Let me know if you need some help and even on the job - have access to high volume of equip.


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