# Help pricing 4 miles of Sidewalk - 0 tolerance/for rest of season



## darkavenue73 (Jan 30, 2019)

Hello all...

Long time stalker...first time poster.

Been plowing just a few yrs now. One of my customers is a large corp for whom I currently do smaller properties. They now want me to submit a contract for 4 miles of sidewalk according to the same terms I do their other properties - plowing/salting @ 0 tolerance for the entire season for an unlimited number of visits. For me this is kind of a big deal lol

They've proven they have no problem cutting a check. The problem is me. I don't have bobcats or ATV's because I've only been a 2 truck operation doing, for example -neighborhood church sized lots that hold 150 cars at most. So I don't know what to price or what to expect from a sub. The beauty is I don't have to bid or compete, its mine to price.

The sidewalks are off a major road with limited traffic for it's size. It's most flat, but there's a 2 block portion that's slightly elevated so it's buried under 3ft of snow from drifting and past storms since it's never been done. This portion worries me most.

I need your advice please....


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Where are you located and what's the annual snowfall and typical event amount?
Width of the walks?
Are you considering using subs, or doing it yourself?
Good sidewalk subs are hard to find and keep. The same is true for sidewalk employees.
I've had good and bad. Had a sub drop the ball in the middle of a big event and never return. I limped through that season with 1 crew and using construction employees to help out
and replaced them the next season. 

Sounds like you need a blower and a broom and blade, depending on what falls.
Another thing to consider along the major road is the municipal plows burying the walk. This could add at the very least, 1 return. Probably some thaw and refreeze to consider too.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

They want a seasonal price or a per service price? Location?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> They want a seasonal price or a per service price? Location?


It looks like he said seasonal, zero tolerance unlimited number of visits.


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## darkavenue73 (Jan 30, 2019)

EWSplow said:


> Where are you located and what's the annual snowfall and typical event amount?
> Width of the walks?
> Are you considering using subs, or doing it yourself?
> Good sidewalk subs are hard to find and keep. The same is true for sidewalk employees.
> ...


I'm kind of near you in Chicago. It's been weird here. Typically we get 2-3" but the last several seasons have been minimal except for a couple of big storms. This season we're in the middle of 3 weeks worth of 2-6 inchers. The rest of this season could bring a blizzard and then nothing else. Or we could get a couple inches in Feb. 
Late March is typically the end of it but we could get a surprise.

Sidewalks are 5 x 5. You're correct about good help..hard to find. I'd prefer to do it myself. But not at all opposed to subbing. I think the paycheck would help me to upgrade my equipment.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

EWSplow said:


> It looks like he said seasonal, zero tolerance unlimited number of visits.


That's kind of how I took it, but he didn't really make it clear how they want pricing.

"Zero tolerance" (read:impossible) sidewalks and 4 miles of them without any equipment or manpower is quite a challenge to bite off at the end of January. If the width can handle it, a 3000 series Deere or L series Kubota would be great. Broom blade or blower, and hydraulic drop spreader.


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## darkavenue73 (Jan 30, 2019)

John_DeereGreen said:


> That's kind of how I took it, but he didn't really make it clear how they want pricing.
> 
> "Zero tolerance" (read:impossible) sidewalks and 4 miles of them without any equipment or manpower is quite a challenge to bite off at the end of January. If the width can handle it, a 3000 series Deere or L series Kubota would be great. Broom blade or blower, and hydraulic drop spreader.


I'd love to have a Kubota in my arsenal! Just to need the right accts to pull the trigger.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

darkavenue73 said:


> I'm kind of near you in Chicago. It's been weird here. Typically we get 2-3" but the last several seasons have been minimal except for a couple of big storms. This season we're in the middle of 3 weeks worth of 2-6 inchers. The rest of this season could bring a blizzard and then nothing else. Or we could get a couple inches in Feb.
> Late March is typically the end of it but we could get a surprise.
> 
> Sidewalks are 5 x 5. You're correct about good help..hard to find. I'd prefer to do it myself. But not at all opposed to subbing. I think the paycheck would help me to upgrade my equipment.


I just had the weather discussion with a client yesterday. Typically we'd get 1-4" events and 1 or 2 bigger events. Not lately. 
@John_DeereGreen has the right idea. 
I've been subbing walks out for about 5 years, but always had the machines and manpower to back them up when needed. The guys on the construction crew didn't really enjoy it, but they got 
1.5 times the regular pay, so they'd do it. 
Investing 10s of thousands on equipment for one site might not make you money, but 4 miles is quite a bit and probably doable if you have other uses for them.


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## darkavenue73 (Jan 30, 2019)

EWSplow said:


> I just had the weather discussion with a client yesterday. Typically we'd get 1-4" events and 1 or 2 bigger events. Not lately.
> @John_DeereGreen has the right idea.
> I've been subbing walks out for about 5 years, but always had the machines and manpower to back them up when needed. The guys on the construction crew didn't really enjoy it, but they got
> 1.5 times the regular pay, so they'd do it.
> Investing 10s of thousands on equipment for one site might not make you money, but 4 miles is quite a bit and probably doable if you have other uses for them.


Thanks for the insight. I do property maintenance all year so finding uses for it outside of this acct shouldnt be an issue.

Any ideas on pricing?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Damn, 4 miles is a lot of walks! You’re gonna have to spend some serious money to get the right equipment for that. Not only that, you will need a backup plan if equipment breaks or malfunctions. Really, the equipment you decide on will have the most impact on your time to do it and the price you charge. Blower, broom and drop salter. I wouldn’t use a plow.


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## darkavenue73 (Jan 30, 2019)

WIPensFan said:


> Damn, 4 miles is a lot of walks! You're gonna have to spend some serious money to get the right equipment for that. Not only that, you will need a backup plan if equipment breaks or malfunctions. Really, the equipment you decide on will have the most impact on your time to do it and the price you charge. Blower, broom and drop salter. I wouldn't use a plow.


yea...think i'll sub out the initial clean then try and maintain the rest myself with upgraded equipment...I may sub out help for big snows which are more rare.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Zero tolerance but they haven't been touched yet?

Like JDG said, zero tolerance is by definition impossible. 

4 miles is plenty to pay for a dedicated machine.


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## darkavenue73 (Jan 30, 2019)

Ok point taken: 0 tolerance not physically possible..i get it.
Any inklings on what to charge?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Yes


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## darkavenue73 (Jan 30, 2019)

pp...with sugar on top?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Enough to pay your overhead, labor, and desired profit.

Which is different than mine.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

This is a rough guess as I’ve never done that much walk at once. Snow and salt $1900 for 1-3.9”
Honestly I think I’m low on that.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

If it has not been touched this season yet it is probably rock hard. Your going to have to price the initial clean up first then give them a price per trip. You got over 21K feet which may be the way you will need to price it by the foot.

Is it all straight? corners, wheel chair ramps. Your going to need a trackless, bomby or similar Imo. Here you would probably get 15 cents a foot if it is all straight. You go in 2 to 3 times a day your making money.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

FredG said:


> If it has not been touched this season yet it is probably rock hard.


Freddy, Freddy, Freddy... Oh Freddy...

Yeah probably couple hours of work with the right piece and a phat money maker... Little compact with broom and blower... Drop spreader in rear...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

FredG said:


> If it has not been touched this season yet it is probably rock hard. Your going to have to price the initial clean up first then give them a price per trip. You got over 21K feet which may be the way you will need to price it by the foot.
> 
> Is it all straight? corners, wheel chair ramps. Your going to need a trackless, bomby or similar Imo. Here you would probably get 15 cents a foot if it is all straight. You go in 2 to 3 times a day your making money.


I like your quote much better Fred. I don't know what he will use to do it so it's impossible to determine how long it will take.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Freddy, Freddy, Freddy... Oh Freddy...
> 
> Yeah probably couple hours of work with the right piece and a phat money maker... Little compact with broom and blower... Drop spreader in rear...


 Two hours work? I would like to see that. Maybe if he can get to it every inch. What you trying to say you would do it for $400.00.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

FredG said:


> Two hours work? I would like to see that. Maybe if he can get to it every inch. What you trying to say you would do it for $400.00.


$450... Thumbs Up If its supposed to be kept at ZT then it shouldn't take very long... I mean the machine should be doing 4 mph at least... Like I said right piece and you'll knock it in no time and make good payup


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

What are we talking here with zero tolerance?? I was thinking he meant it needed to be done after each event or once a day if an extended event or drifting. I wasn’t thinking 2-3 times a day but I guess it could be?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

WIPensFan said:


> What are we talking here with zero tolerance?? I was thinking he meant it needed to be done after each event or once a day if an extended event or drifting. I wasn't thinking 2-3 times a day but I guess it could be?


I cannot imagine things are that different in Wizzkonzin... Zero tolerance is zero tolerance just as it states... Bare pavement/concrete by all means necessary. Not wait till it's done snowing...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> $450... Thumbs Up If its supposed to be kept at ZT then it shouldn't take very long... I mean the machine should be doing 4 mph at least... Like I said right piece and you'll knock it in no time and make good payup


 4 mph in 1 mile should take 15 min you should be done in 1 hour. In theory you are correct, have you priced a sidewalk machine recently? There over $100K with just the blower. For junk.https://www.ebay.com/itm/Trackless-...122416460180?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I cannot imagine things are that different in Wizzkonzin... Zero tolerance is zero tolerance just as it states... Bare pavement/concrete by all means necessary. Not wait till it's done snowing...


Yep, you could be right. But like was said earlier, it hasn't even been done for a while.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

WIPensFan said:


> Yep, you could be right. But like was said earlier, it hasn't even been done for a while.


So the initial cleanup will take a bit of effort... But once it's cleaned up keeping at ZT it'll be a cake walk... No pun intended...



FredG said:


> 4 mph in 1 mile should take 15 min you should be done in 1 hour. In theory you are correct, have you priced a sidewalk machine recently? There over $100K with just the blower. For junk.https://www.ebay.com/itm/Trackless-...122416460180?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10


Yeah to me that's a little overkill in my opinion... Little compact all the way I think... 15-25k


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Guys are getting a $1.00 per Ft for sidewalk no where near that much but it is happening. My first thought was 10 cents a foot, then I got greedy. I'm sure there is guys that would take it for the $450.00 besides AJ. Right wrong or indifferent I would not.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

FredG said:


> Guys are getting a $1.00 per Ft for sidewalk no where near that much but it is happening. My first thought was 10 cents a foot, then I got greedy. I'm sure there is guys that would take it for the $450.00 besides AJ. Right wrong or indifferent I would not.


I was joking... I think I'm like $270 ish on about a 1/2 mile of walks plus salt...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I was joking... I think I'm like $270 ish on about a 1/2 mile of walks plus salt...


Where is that finger emogi.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

OP, After AJ's shenanigans :laugh: you should have some idea where you have to be.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

FredG said:


> 4 mph in 1 mile should take 15 min you should be done in 1 hour. In theory you are correct, have you priced a sidewalk machine recently? There over $100K with just the blower. For junk.https://www.ebay.com/itm/Trackless-...122416460180?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10


Every time I see this sort of thing, it makes me feel better about my Belos, even if the hydraulic valve repair will cost me $6K when it gets done next week.

What about a used front mount mower? It was a few years ago, but I sold my parents F3060 with 72" broom, 54" blower, heated Curtis cab, and (irrelevant to snow) a 72" deck and grass clipping suction system for $12K. 1000 hours at the time. You could put a dump bed/salter in place of the clipping system (just be sure to hose off the machine each time) and be off to the races.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Seen several contractors use ToolCats oot here for big walks (6ft wide) with some distance. depending on the storm brooms, or blowers are used and they have a drop spreader or using liquid.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Every time I see this sort of thing, it makes me feel better about my Belos, even if the hydraulic valve repair will cost me $6K when it gets done next week.
> 
> What about a used front mount mower? It was a few years ago, but I sold my parents F3060 with 72" broom, 54" blower, heated Curtis cab, and (irrelevant to snow) a 72" deck and grass clipping suction system for $12K. 1000 hours at the time. You could put a dump bed/salter in place of the clipping system (just be sure to hose off the machine each time) and be off to the races.


 Your Belos is better shape and newer machine than that trackless, not to mention you stole it. Might of had a little bad luck with the valve repair. I stole a nice dump truck made it through last season and made a ton of money.

This winter it got me over $4K, Steering box started leaking like a waterfall could not even drive it. Shortly after that repair the hoist was leaking just as bad. Could not be taken apart somebody was in there before and cobbed it up. Had to buy a new hoist from Brazil $2700.00. My Cousin bought one for a Mack triaxle at the same time twice as big $1600.00

Still going to work next week and should make that money back in less than 2 weeks.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

7.5 cents a square foot. payup
Then go grab one of those holder 992 tractors with equipment already on them for dirt cheap in canada.

Darkavenue, did you take on this sidewalk project? If so how did it go or is going?


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## darkavenue73 (Jan 30, 2019)

Ice-sage said:


> 7.5 cents a square foot. payup
> Then go grab one of those holder 992 tractors with equipment already on them for dirt cheap in canada.
> 
> Darkavenue, did you take on this sidewalk project? If so how did it go or is going?


Yes we did. Thanks.
But with a few exceptions. I submitted a price based on a quote I received from a company I was gonna use to sub it out. The quote was way too rich for their blood. Soooo... They reduced the amount of sidewalks by about 40% and changed from wanting a seasonal contract to per event.

Deciding to do it myself I had to find the right tools in a hurry.

I found an ATV on FB Marketplace with a v plow already attached. Then on Craigslist, I found a stainless steel tow-behind salter with a 15 bag capacity. Same guy had an enclosed trailer that fit both. The salters exactly the width I needed for the walks.
My prayers of gratitude have been incessant!

I ended up doing about 4 or 5 visits and even though the contract is until April 30 it looks like the season's over now. But I made enough to pay back what I spent on equipment and then some.

Shout out to everyone who took the time to respond and had constructive advice on the matter!


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Awsome! Glad to hear you stuck with it. Sounds like you made some pretty sweet deals to get the job accomplished even with used equipment. Keep it up! Look up and look ahead! Forward, never straight! Good luck to you going "forward"!


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