# Caliber service management



## yauwsh (Oct 20, 2010)

Checking to see if anyone has any experience working with Caliber out of Penn. They have approached me for two very large sites. I have worked with many national and regional service company and have never been blown away. Particularly when it comes to paying. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Kinda late to be lining up contractors for large sites, isn't it?


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Kinda late to be lining up contractors for large sites, isn't it?


Sure is, considering most contracts should start today.


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## robh610 (Jan 11, 2008)

yauwsh said:


> Checking to see if anyone has any experience working with Caliber out of Penn. They have approached me for two very large sites. I have worked with many national and regional service company and have never been blown away. Particularly when it comes to paying. Any input would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance.





yauwsh said:


> Checking to see if anyone has any experience working with Caliber out of Penn. They have approached me for two very large sites. I have worked with many national and regional service company and have never been blown away. Particularly when it comes to paying. Any input would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance.





yauwsh said:


> Checking to see if anyone has any experience working with Caliber out of Penn. They have approached me for two very large sites. I have worked with many national and regional service company and have never been blown away. Particularly when it comes to paying. Any input would be appreciated.
> Thanks in advance.


I am from the same area they are based out of. We do about 6 sites for them been working with them since they started and have been nothing but easy to deal with and never have an issue with payment.


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

They also reached out to our company in late October as well. I just talked to them today about pricing. Is the pricing fair? I am in WI and they had some monster lots. Their price points seemed WAY off. 

They seem really really reasonable and "cool" to work with, but the pricing seemed incredibly low. A very large snow outfit did these accounts the past few years, but the company denied going forward with this year after this management company took over this year. Maybe I am not fully understanding the rates, considering the Lots we do are typically half of the size. 

Are you supposed to incorporate a routine "out of scope" snow relocating for additional income? If so, would it be when you do the clean-up when the lots are closed? 

Any help would be appreciated! 

(BTW: I'm not sure the protocol for giving out numbers etc on the forum, still learning the ropes)


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Twan said:


> (BTW: I'm not sure the protocol for giving out numbers etc on the forum, still learning the ropes)


FWIW - if you want to open the Pandora's box, I'd keep #s to yourself. It doesn't matter how many times that info is explained or revealed, some jack wagon(s) take it all out of context and turn this into a excrement show.

Pricing is and always should remain regional. Meaning - what something is worth here seasonally/per push/whatever pricing model is and shouldn't be the same over there. That is why nationals don't work. We get approached by nationals or province wide operators quite often, and the response is usually something in line with "we don't pay that per square meter (foot/yard)". Of course not, because we don't price by the square meter. We price by our local parameters, such as weather/product costs/labour/resource allocation/insurance costs and requirements etc.

Just trying to save everyone some hassle here and not see another thread spiral off into the vortex. Any national management co worth their salt wouldn't still be looking for someone in December, especially in upstate NY (OP) or WI.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Twan said:


> (BTW: I'm not sure the protocol for giving out numbers etc on the forum, still learning the ropes)


I agree numbers are regional too.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

GMC Driver said:


> Just trying to save everyone some hassle here and not see another thread spiral off into the vortex.


So Kannadian of you...


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Some folks on plowsite really like to pay national corporations to do the work for free. That is essentially what you or anybody else working for a national leech service are doing.

All a service provider(countrywide) corporation does is send paperwork to the legal and financial divisions of lets say Walmart. They tell them, hey, we'll find some schmuck to do the plowing, we will charge you, Walmart 35% less, and in return we'll pay the schmuck doing the actual labor 75-80% less. It is a win-win for the suits that do absolutely nothing but shovel paper around.

The best part is you will find tons of guys here on plowsite that will defend these leetches(corps) till their last breath. The labor(slave) class always loses when some middleman holds the pursestrings.

I also wholeheartedly disagree with @GMC Driver telling people here never to post the contracts or payment terms. Seems quite a bit like he himself and others want to keep secret how bad the labor class is getting screwed by these nationals. With no truthfull transparency, the labor class doesn't understand how bad these nationals are for our living. This is all about information. This site is to inform others. There are over 3000 pages telling folks about these nationals.

But hey, as long as some folks here want to keep new people in the dark about this segment of the buisness, the race to the bottom continues. And the suits will always win.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Ice-sage said:


> I also wholeheartedly disagree with @GMC Driver telling people here never to post the contracts or payment terms. Seems quite a bit like he himself and others want to keep secret how bad the labor class is getting screwed by these nationals. With no truthfull transparency, the labor class doesn't understand how bad these nationals are for our living. This is all about information. This site is to inform others. There are over 3000 pages telling folks about these nationals.
> 
> But hey, as long as some folks here want to keep new people in the dark about this segment of the buisness, the race to the bottom continues. And the suits will always win.


I'm glad you disagree - that brings balance to the discussion.

Its not about screwing the labour class, nor a race to the bottom. Yes, there are those contractors that are engaged in that mentality. But I wouldn't include our operations as part of that.

We pay our staff above the average for our market. If you want numbers, I will post them. But it's all relative to the cost of living, the fact that we are in Canada and our dollar is valued differently, we have a huge social expenditures due to high taxation and government programs. So then what is the point? If I pay an opertator $50/hour - doesn't make any difference if housing (by example) sells here at $350-400/square foot. Or rent on a 2 bedroom apartment is $2500/month. Or fuel is $1.50/litre ($6/gallon). Can that be compared to a market where they pay $100/hour and the cost of living is double? GTA/Montreal/Vancouver?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Ice-sage said:


> Some folks on plowsite really like to pay national corporations to do the work for free. That is essentially what you or anybody else working for a national leech service are doing.
> 
> All a service provider(countrywide) corporation does is send paperwork to the legal and financial divisions of lets say Walmart. They tell them, hey, we'll find some schmuck to do the plowing, we will charge you, Walmart 35% less, and in return we'll pay the schmuck doing the actual labor 75-80% less. It is a win-win for the suits that do absolutely nothing but shovel paper around.
> 
> ...


Curious - if you have 3 guys working for you, I assume you split all profits 4 ways for any jobs you bring in, correct? Because I'm sure you wouldn't pay yourself more for the same work than you'd be paying per hour to someone else. 'Cuz obviously you'd be taking advantage of them.

Edit: even worse, you wouldn't THINK of negotiating a contract, then sending a hired hand to a site to work at that you yourself didn't show up at.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

For what its worth NSP's are just like GC's: They make money for managing things. Someone has to make the $ for dealing with the clients. It's up to the service providers [me-you] to not take the crap numbers.

Speaking as a construction GC, sub and direct provider, there is value and a cost for all three. The good GC's make their percentage, am transparent and provide a valuable service to the client and the sub.

The bad NSP's are like bad contractors: they take advantage of people.


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

So, here's the deal. 

These guys are pushing for us to take on their account. Here are the problems / concerns I have so far: 

1. Rep I talked to say, "There are no sidewalks or shoveling needed, as it will be provided in house / another contractor." Turns out, the next person I talk to, says no its included and sends me a new SOW i never seen. 

2. In Wisconsin (I will make this as transparent as possible, regionally speaking) We have had 45-50 inches every year for the past 5 years. NOW....they're basing seasonal price on 0-36 inches. We plan our contracts (most contractors in southeast WI on 18 removals and 23 saltings (roughly) depending on trigger. This one is one inch and demanding, so more like 25 push and 38 Salt.

3. The lot they are looking to sign is a 10 acre lot, with around 4k linear ft of walks. AND the walks need to be salted with "ice melt," not rock salt. The walks do can only be removed with a "poly blade. " 

4. I gave them my price, I get no call back, and they are asking for my COI / W9. via email. I ask them to confirm the pricing, and of course - same pricing. 31k for the season. 

5. THIS RUBBED ME THE WRONG WAY - When I talked to the first rep I heard a champagne bottle being opened and people cheering in the background! RED FLAG IMO 

6. A large outfit did these lots for several years. The management co changed to Caliber Management this year and the prior outfit walked! 

I'm not sure regional numbers even matter at this point - I'm talking about lower Midwest, which we get less than upper Midwest, but still have a reasonable amount of salting. Most of the plowing occurs in about 2 months, where you're plowing 2-3 times a week (at a 1 inch trigger especially). If you don't plow at the 1 inch, you're dumping more salt, raising that cost. 

This lot will consume roughly 20 tons of bulk salt alone. So roughly $3k in cost conservatively ($130 a ton) - Then ice-melt for the walks! 

These guys seem like they're in over their head and made promises they cannot keep. I'm walking, and I wanted to get this out. I did this quickly, so if I need to clear anything up, let me know.


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## Mountain Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

Walk? I would have ran,I believe.
As my Dad says "you can work for anybody for free"


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

Mountain Bob said:


> Walk? I would have ran,I believe.
> As my Dad says "you can work for anybody for free"


100%!!!

or as my uncle would say "It's never good when you have to pay to go to work"


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

@Twan

String them along until you get a massive dump of snow. Then change the entire contract and demand an ACH payment immediately to your buisness account for 100k. Easy peasy.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

It is called an eye for an eye. Due unto others as they due unto you. Most often in buisness and contract law, an equal meeting of the minds. 

10 acre site. 100k minimum. Up front paid in full. With humongous clauses for any extras. Paid immediately upon demand. They need us. We don't need them.

Do not let these useless leech companies steal food off your table. They only care about themselves. They are the weak. We the labor force are the strong. We don't need them and never have. It is time they die off and burn in hades where the leeches belong.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Look at NSP's for what they really are. Simple. Slave drivers. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

Ice-sage said:


> @Twan
> 
> String them along until you get a massive dump of snow. Then change the entire contract and demand an ACH payment immediately to your buisness account for 100k. Easy peasy.


That's the plan. I hope it stings em a bit. I want them to learn from it - learn some respect for the guys in the trenches, while they're popping champagne bottles. YA ---- POPPING CHAMPAGNE BOTTLES

I have other contractors I'm friends with in the area doing the same thing with other locations they wanted me to take out of my area. It will be epic... I hope (#5 in my post above).


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

Ice-sage said:


> It is called an eye for an eye. Due unto others as they due unto you. Most often in buisness and contract law, an equal meeting of the minds.
> 
> 10 acre site. 100k minimum. Up front paid in full. With humongous clauses for any extras. Paid immediately upon demand. They need us. We don't need them.
> 
> Do not let these useless leech companies steal food off your table. They only care about themselves. They are the weak. We the labor force are the strong. We don't need them and never have. It is time they die off and burn in hades where the leeches belong.


I like the upfront idea... I was thinking all of the money they would have owed and the rest of the 100k after that. But I like that up front idea. They'll have a lawsuit or two at a couple places by the time they pay.

I'm a little disappointed in the store as well for choosing to do a national over a local outfit they already had. Some of the blame is on them too, so price better get to them, too, you know?


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

Ice-sage said:


> It is called an eye for an eye. Due unto others as they due unto you. Most often in buisness and contract law, an equal meeting of the minds.
> 
> 10 acre site. 100k minimum. Up front paid in full. With humongous clauses for any extras. Paid immediately upon demand. They need us. We don't need them.
> 
> Do not let these useless leech companies steal food off your table. They only care about themselves. They are the weak. We the labor force are the strong. We don't need them and never have. It is time they die off and burn in hades where the leeches belong.


"Snow relocation / stacking: $500 an hour, $2k min" lol


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Good luck with squeezing blood out of a turnip...I'd just concentrate my attention on finding good clients and not working for NSPs


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Well what m_ice said also.
All NSP's have turned back the clock on what is owed to the labor force from 10-20 years ago. That is straight up theft. R.I.C.O, fraud and a plethera of other things. You could look at it as crimes against humanity. Because it is. They have nothing in their aresenal except for legal shennanigans, and the low I.Q of much of the labor force. Prying on people who are hungry/starving to force slavery on the labor masses. They learned it from big buisness and the govco.


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

m_ice said:


> Good luck with squeezing blood out of a turnip...I'd just concentrate my attention on finding good clients and not working for NSPs





Ice-sage said:


> Well what m_ice said also.
> All NSP's have turned back the clock on what is owed to the labor force from 10-20 years ago. That is straight up theft. R.I.C.O, fraud and a plethera of other things. You could look at it as crimes against humanity. Because it is. They have nothing in their aresenal except for legal shennanigans, and the low I.Q of much of the labor force. Prying on people who are hungry/starving to force slavery on the labor masses. They learned it from big buisness and the govco.


I'm going to reply to both of you because the biggest takeaway from your comments is flat out - do NOT even deal with the NSP's.

We actually need to spread the word on this - big time. They are a cancer to our industry!!

Huge realization here - imagine the price standard if they did not exist. They mostly exist because people with a $500 GL policy continue to sign with them, do it for two years and drop it because they can't figure out the billing etc.

Therefore, this is another reason to be more transparent with pricing towards our peers and newcomers as possible, while considering regional circumstances, of course. Like what's the big deal? We're still competing, we're just competing for the value rather than the price. That's the most important IMO.

They exist because we feed them. However, I keep two locations with NSP's - I keep one in particular because of a leaky awning and I have an employee that lives close, send a pallet with him to keep and he hits it every 4-7 days a week, 1 bag at a time.

This was one I kept because a patron sued after we told them about the defective awning - Long story short, they "lost that documentation in their software because of a malware attack" (I confirmed later it did happen). In any case, they were not willing to budge on what we had for documentation but now they pay...

****ers made me go down $5 bucks for full service but ya know, better than $6....

Cheers, 
Twan


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