# Pay



## msilbak

Hey Guys- sort of new to this site, but had a quick question. I live in buffalo NY and I was wondering how much you guys typically pay your employees an hr? I will supply the truck and all equipment needed to get the job done. 

Also in the event I hired someone to plow and use their own truck how much do you guys typically charge? 

Thank you!!


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## Avalanche 2500

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/plow-drivers.175535/


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## tpendagast

msilbak said:


> Hey Guys- sort of new to this site, but had a quick question. I live in buffalo NY and I was wondering how much you guys typically pay your employees an hr? I will supply the truck and all equipment needed to get the job done.
> 
> Also in the event I hired someone to plow and use their own truck how much do you guys typically charge?
> 
> Thank you!!


How little can you pay?

Can you pay minimum wage?
Do you even get guys to show up?
No?
Then it's obviously more than that.

$15/hr?
Do the guys showing up seem like someoMe you can trust with a truck?
No?

Then it's more than that.

I mean it's really process of elimination

If I'm a big plow company paying more than you... you're just getting everyone I didn't want.
The less you pay, the farther down the pecking order you are, until they've all been through the top 10 guys around you and have either been fired or rejected.
That's what's showing up to fill your seats.

So if you pay half as much , but the guy takes twice as much time and damages your truck and your customers property... was it worth paying less?

So the answer really is, as much as you can. While at the same time, as little as you can.

If everyone is paying $18, pay $20... not $25

Lots of guys say "I can't afford to pay that much"
But the real question is can you afford to pay that little?

Can a higher paid guy screw up stuff?
Sure 
But you're ten times as likely to attract applicants who care about their work if you pay well.

You can't ask me what I pay... because it will mean nothing in your market 
Guys aren't getting on planes to leave here for $2/hr more and they are flying here from where you're at either....
The only rates that matter are your local competition ... same as your customers prices

But
If your $25/hr guy does an 8 hour route in 7 hours 
That means even though your payroll is high, you can afford to be more competitive on your pricing

It's the difference between $70 x 2 and $80 x 1.5
Who's going to be low bid?
Heck you could be $90/hr and still get the job or $100/hr and still be competitive.

The ratios, nuances and factors of what do you pay and how much you charge are so much more involved, than just charging or paying what everyone else does. 
Ask the question is more likely to lead you in the wrong direction with bad data, than it is to help you find your sweet spot.


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## leolkfrm

would you go out in the current weather for 4 hours at $15 an hour...i doubt it


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## Randall Ave

With me your on the books. I also feed you. $30.00 an hour.


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## tpendagast

leolkfrm said:


> would you go out in the current weather for 4 hours at $15 an hour...i doubt it


I might 
Do I have bills to pay?
Are my kids hungry? 
Is rent due?


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## WIPensFan

tpendagast said:


> I might
> Do I have bills to pay?
> Are my kids hungry?
> Is rent due?


You forgot...Do I have a drug or alcohol dependency?


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## cwren2472

tpendagast said:


> I might
> Do I have bills to pay?
> Are my kids hungry?
> Is rent due?


While that's possibly true, the more likely possibility these days is that you would offer someone $14/hr, he'll laugh at you, then go work for one of your competitors for $20/hr in a heartbeat since they are probably all hard up to find ANYONE, too.


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## Randall Ave

WIPensFan said:


> You forgot...Do I have a drug or alcohol dependency?


The way things are going, the alcohol part might appear


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## GMC Driver

We tried a new approach this year. Higher rates has brought a higher caliber of operator. Although the screening process is ultimately the most important part.

Also have seen a couple cases of higher rates attracting a higher caliber of idiot.


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## tpendagast

cwren2472 said:


> While that's possibly true, the more likely possibility these days is that you would offer someone $14/hr, he'll laugh at you, then go work for one of your competitors for $20/hr in a heartbeat since they are probably all hard up to find ANYONE, too.


Not everyone can find decent pay 
I don't know what it is, or the positions just weren't advertised when people are desperate and looking.

I have guys working for me now that worked in other places for years for $12/hr , I haven't massively changed my pay scale ... 
just that people thought they'd eventually get a raise and never did...

Other people assume they wouldn't fit in at a bigger company and/or wouldn't have the experience 
I'm not sure what it is, but people who pay crappy occasionally have decent employees


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## cwren2472

tpendagast said:


> Not everyone can find decent pay
> I don't know what it is, or the positions just weren't advertised when people are desperate and looking.
> 
> I have guys working for me now that worked in other places for years for $12/hr , I haven't massively changed my pay scale ...
> just that people thought they'd eventually get a raise and never did...
> 
> Other people assume they wouldn't fit in at a bigger company and/or wouldn't have the experience
> I'm not sure what it is, but people who pay crappy occasionally have decent employees


I'm going to speculate that the labor market in Alaska is VASTLY different than most elsewhere


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## tpendagast

cwren2472 said:


> I'm going to speculate that the labor market in Alaska is VASTLY different than most elsewhere


Why would you think it's VASTLY different?

What does Alaska have to do with what I said?

I don't need to speculate 
I'm well aware of what goes on in the lower 48.
Miracle of modern communication and frequent travel. 
Nor have I spent the majority of my life or career here.


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## cwren2472

tpendagast said:


> Why would you think it's VASTLY different?
> What does Alaska have to do with what I said?


It seems odd to hear anyone talk about having a labor pool to pick from full of guys willing to work for $12 per hour. But I have no employees, so perhaps I'm way off base and if so, I apologize.


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## tpendagast

cwren2472 said:


> It seems odd to hear anyone talk about having a labor pool to pick from full of guys willing to work for $12 per hour. But I have no employees, so perhaps I'm way off base and if so, I apologize.


There are people everywhere that are under paid.
There are people working OT and not getting that pay either.
People working for cash and have no workers comp or UI coverage...
Mostly because they don't know any better.

It's kinda the reason unions were invented to begin with, but those have also gotten out of control. 
But at least unions teach you what your rights are as an employee.

Lots of "businesses" take advantage.. its in the workers nature (those that honestly want to work ) to be afraid of losing their jobs.
So they keep their head down and dream of the day they're fairly compensated.

Then you have the opposite 
People who are "too good" to work for anything less than what amounts to an unreasonable rate for what skills they have.
This is largely the union mentality... I'd rather not work than work for less than "I'm worth"
But who determines that?
They're great in their own mind, until you hire them and they ask you where the master switch is on the loader and what these "knobby things" are and where the joystick is. ...


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## ponyboy

Shovelers start at $20 an hour 
Skid steer and truck drivers start at $25 an hour and most are $30-$40 
Loaded operator gets $45 
Again that’s only me in my area and never not had my guys show up 
So yeah I probably over pay but all good guys very rare to have a complaint


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## TB12

Shovelers start at $14/hr can go up to $20. 
Truck drivers start at $20 can go up to $30.


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## 1olddogtwo

I'm over paid.


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## tpendagast

ponyboy said:


> Shovelers start at $20 an hour
> Skid steer and truck drivers start at $25 an hour and most are $30-$40
> Loaded operator gets $45
> Again that's only me in my area and never not had my guys show up
> So yeah I probably over pay but all good guys very rare to have a complaint


$45 for a loader operator 
What do you charge hourly for your loader?
What's your production rate (acres per hour) on four inches or less?


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## tpendagast

TB12 said:


> Shovelers start at $14/hr can go up to $20.
> Truck drivers start at $20 can go up to $30.


$20 for a shoveler?
Or do you mean sidewalk crew in general and that guy is a driver/leader that organizes other sidewalk people and operates a blower or other equipment... or do you mean literally you pay a grunt $20 an hour to shovel with no other responsibility?


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## ponyboy

No individual price
Shockers gonout in a truck with 3-4 guys per group 
Loader does a whole sitewelcoke to NY I’m 30 minutes away from the city I’m maybe overpaying a few by $2-$5 that’s what the going rates are around here


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## Luther

One of the local contractors around here is currently advertising for sidewalk guys at $12 hour and plow drivers for $15 hour.


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## plow4beer

tpendagast said:


> $20 for a shoveler?
> Or do you mean sidewalk crew in general and that guy is a driver/leader that organizes other sidewalk people and operates a blower or other equipment... or do you mean literally you pay a grunt $20 an hour to shovel with no other responsibility?


Like pony boy, I might be a bit higher on some of my pay(for my area), but I've been finding through that, and good screaning/references, my help has been prettt good/reliable over the last several yrs.....my lowest paid shovel monkey is $18/hr & my highest(which does site checks & monitors other guys as well) is $30/hr...I typically only have about 4-5 guys doing hand labor though. If I had 20+ shovel monkeys, it may be a bit harder to maintain that higher avg of pay.?.?.



ponyboy said:


> No individual price
> Shockers gonout in a truck with 3-4 guys per group
> Loader does a whole sitewelcoke to NY I'm 30 minutes away from the city I'm maybe overpaying a few by $2-$5 that's what the going rates are around here


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## TB12

tpendagast said:


> $20 for a shoveler?
> Or do you mean sidewalk crew in general and that guy is a driver/leader that organizes other sidewalk people and operates a blower or other equipment... or do you mean literally you pay a grunt $20 an hour to shovel with no other responsibility?


What you described besides driving. It's hard to find help that will come out again after the first two storms were followed by immediate ice, rain and single digit temps.


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## plow4beer

Luther said:


> One of the local contractors around here is currently advertising for sidewalk guys at $12 hour and plow drivers for $15 hour.


There's a couple similar ones here....and they have very high turn over rates


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## TB12

plow4beer said:


> There's a couple similar ones here....and they have very high turn over rates


A Walmart employee makes $12/hr here. Not sure how you can convince anyone to go work in snow conditions for the same money.


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## ponyboy

One good thing is we go out at the start of the snow my places are high maintenance so they will get a lot of hours that is one reason why I pay them more because that’s all they do for me is shovel and put down calcium so it’s not enough for them to live on in my area we have a large Latino population that make up most of my labors I have a very hard time finding 
American workers to do anything even at 30 and hour


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## Landgreen

Shoveling can be brutal. Most times its a couple inches of fluffy lake effect but then there are those storms that dump a foot of wet heavy. Or drifts that climb up the side of a house. I pay our shovelers $20-$25 per hour because they are hard to replace. I can find practically anybody to operate a warm and cozy plowtruck. They also get a fat bonus if they stay until the end of the winter. I just hired a guy that was only getting $12.50/hr at his previous job. So far he is an amazing worker going above and beyond what he is required to do. Worth every penny.


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## tpendagast

TB12 said:


> What you described besides driving. It's hard to find help that will come out again after the first two storms were followed by immediate ice, rain and single digit temps.


So how do you charge for that?

If you're basing a mere shovelers pay at $20/hr what are you getting per hour on the retail end for a shoveler?

Here, state law determines that not only is over 40 hours OT 
So is over 8 in any one chronological day.

So if the crew starts at 9 pm and works until 6am because those are two different "days" (midnight) it's not OT
BUT if you worked from midnight to noon ... even if that's the only 12 hours in the whole week it's still 4 hours of OT.

Makes things kinda goofy for sidewalk crews


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## TB12

tpendagast said:


> So how do you charge for that?
> 
> If you're basing a mere shovelers pay at $20/hr what are you getting per hour on the retail end for a shoveler?
> 
> Here, state law determines that not only is over 40 hours OT
> So is over 8 in any one chronological day.
> 
> So if the crew starts at 9 pm and works until 6am because those are two different "days" (midnight) it's not OT
> BUT if you worked from midnight to noon ... even if that's the only 12 hours in the whole week it's still 4 hours of OT.
> 
> Makes things kinda goofy for sidewalk crews


We pay differential pay after 8 hours. 10% additional. So every hour after 8 pays $22.


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## cjames808

I heard people are billing out $55-65 hr for shovelers. :usflag:

When we get scraped for 15% workman comp 3.5% UI and 12.5% FICA FUTA BUTTA and whatever else, those boys COST us $20-35/hr.

We are switching everyone we can over to hourly ground work.


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## icudoucme

All the big boys in the Rochester area pay the following rates for first year workers: 
shoveler no license 15.00 hr
Lead Shoveler (license) 16.00-17.00
Pickup truck plow driver: $20-24.
Loader Operator: $25-30
CDL salt truck: 20-30 depending on driving record


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## leolkfrm

cwren2472 said:


> While that's possibly true, the more likely possibility these days is that you would offer someone $14/hr, he'll laugh at you, then go work for one of your competitors for $20/hr in a heartbeat since they are probably all hard up to find ANYONE, too.


been there done that, but i knew i was going to get 8 to 10 hrs, not 3 hrs and done


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