# Non compete



## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

So the quick version of whats happening, we signed a non compete with the guy we subbed for last year. He decided to end our partnership and fired us after the season which we're fine with. Fast forward to this year, a lady who he worked for last year has four accounts. He told her he wasn't renewing her contract for this season because he was downsizing and only plowing for his landscape customers. She came to us, asked for a price and ultimately gave us the contract. While I'm out plowing this am the guy we used to sub for is taking pictures of me. When I confronted him he tells me that I'm in violation of the non compete. I'm of the mind that since he let the accounts go then they are fair game. Worse comes to worse if we end up in front of the magistrate and we have to let these places go so be it but I dont see where I would be in violation of anything. Probably going to make a call to the attorney Monday to see what the best route would be. I'm just wonderingif I'm in the wrong here


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I agree with you,
If he drooped them if so you are no longer in competition for them.
They are a free agent and you are free to solicit them.

If hes want to protest, let him take ya to court.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

peteo1;2077296 said:


> So the quick version of whats happening, we signed a non compete with the guy we subbed for last year. He decided to end our partnership and fired us after the season which we're fine with. Fast forward to this year, a lady who he worked for last year has four accounts. He told her he wasn't renewing her contract for this season because he was downsizing and only plowing for his landscape customers. She came to us, asked for a price and ultimately gave us the contract. While I'm out plowing this am the guy we used to sub for is taking pictures of me. When I confronted him he tells me that I'm in violation of the non compete. I'm of the mind that since he let the accounts go then they are fair game. Worse comes to worse if we end up in front of the magistrate and we have to let these places go so be it but I dont see where I would be in violation of anything. Probably going to make a call to the attorney Monday to see what the best route would be. I'm just wonderingif I'm in the wrong here


You have nothing to worry about, The non compete thing is only good when your together. He decided to pass on the work that you got from the women and you are not working for him as he fired you.

He would look like the fool he is in any court of law. It's not just he let them contracts go. The main thing you are not subbing for him. The non compete only would work if you were still subbing with him. It's not a life time agreement. Don't give any legal fee's out yet.

He sounds like a confused blowhard.Thumbs Up


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

At 20.00 an hour for plowing.I doubt he'll have enough money to hire a lawyer


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Your contract with him last season is over/completed. So so is the non compete as a clause of that contract.


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## 160SR (Oct 1, 2014)

You didn't solicit them, they called you. He's SOL.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Lottery day dreamer he is. 

A "No Compete" could mean a variety of things depending on how it's worded. I'd doubt it'd prevent you from working for someone that pursued you unless you approached them or communicated with them first.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

When he dismissed you no compete is over period. Next season you can bid everything he does. What could he tell the judge with any value? Your honor I decided to drop some clients that are not my landscape clients. The only problem is I had a no compete clause in my contract with Mr P before I fired him and after are contract was up.

This is unjust even though I passed on the jobs and I have no connection with MR P. You know this guy we don't. Could he possibly be this much of a dumb a$$. Oh I forgot you did say he took pictures.

I'm surprised he made it though puberty. :realmad:


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## cbservicesllc (Aug 5, 2011)

SnoFarmer;2077298 said:


> I agree with you,
> If he drooped them if so you are no longer in competition for them.
> They are a free agent and you are free to solicit them.
> 
> If hes want to protest, let him take ya to court.


Agreed.......


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

How bout you post that section of the contract you had with him.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

*none compete*



Randall Ave;2077466 said:


> How bout you post that section of the contract you had with him.


I guess it could be possible that in your original contract the clause could say "blah,blah,blah, agrees to not work for or to solicit our customers for X number of seasons if our relationship is terminated for any reason."

But good luck enforcing it.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Like Farmer said you should be in good shape. 
If the woman has an email from the old contractor saying he's not renewing and a email to you requesting service you'd be golden.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Sounds good guys, thats kind of what my line of thinking was. I'm going to talk to my customer monday morning and see if I can get something from her stating what happened. It's really irritating having to deal with a person who acts like a petulant child


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

sounds like he saw a light winter and is trying to get the seasonal back!...made his bed, you owe him nothing, if he thinks he has a claim so be it...bet he is just blowing smoke


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Take your paperwork, go see a lawyer, most will consult for free, there's a LOT of bad advice in this thread. no one can tell you what the state of the noncompete was without reading it and knowing the laws governing them in your location.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

basher;2077641 said:


> Take your paperwork, go see a lawyer, most will consult for free, there's a LOT of bad advice in this thread. no one can tell you what the state of the noncompete was without reading it and knowing the laws governing them in your location.


This could be true if the OP was still with him, Furthermore when he fired him this would void any agreement with the OP. I don't care how it was worded it still has to get passed the Judge.

I think the guy that the OP was subbing for is a blowhard and wants that work back and is trying to muscle the OP out of the work. The PO contacted the OP because the other guy passed on the work.

I will stick to my story as I think the guy has nothing of any value to any Judge in PA.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

To the OP, The guy you subbed for last year has you by the shorthairs. It's safe to assume that since he has spent the time documenting your violation, he will start pulling on them very soon. If you find yourself in front of a magistrate you will not be able to cloud the issue on the reasons why he doesn't have that contract this year, or how you came about it. He has a legal document with your written agreement not to compete by serviceing the site. 

If it is strongly and properly written and does not violate your states laws on competing, the good news is you will have the opportunity to negotiate through the magistrate. The bad news is you will have to go through the process and you will have to pay a penalty of some sort. 

The basher has given you the best advice on this thread. Take it seriously and have a lawyer review the verbiage that you agreed to.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

TCLA;2077650 said:


> To the OP, The guy you subbed for last year has you by the shorthairs. It's safe to assume that since he has spent the time documenting your violation, he will start pulling on them very soon. If you find yourself in front of a magistrate you will not be able to cloud the issue on the reasons why he doesn't have that contract this year, or how you came about it. He has a legal document with your written agreement not to compete by serviceing the site.
> 
> If it is strongly and properly written and does not violate your states laws on competing, the good news is you will have the opportunity to negotiate through the magistrate. The bad news is you will have to go through the process and you will have to pay a penalty of some sort.
> 
> The basher has given you the best advice on this thread. Take it seriously and have a lawyer review the verbiage that you agreed to.


He has nothing by nothing.

He fired the OP.

He can not deny the OP the right to make a living at what he is skilled at.

He can not claim competition when he dumped the customer and left the customer in need of someone to provide them with service.

I would not care what he says or how many photos he takes.

All OP has to do is keep plowing, wait for legal action to take place then get a good lawyer and this will then be laughed out of court.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Again, post that area of the contract so we can see whats there.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

32vld;2077653 said:


> He has nothing by nothing.
> 
> He fired the OP.
> 
> ...


Well said, This guy is lucky I'm not the OP, Once I saw him taking pics it's on now. I could do without the thorn I'd be. The op could counter sue for being brought into court for such a ridiculous allegation and legal fee's.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

http://www.lawguru.com


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

The most litigated issue in employment contracts is the legality of so-called "restrictive covenant" provisions, such as a non-compete clause which bars an ex-employee from going to work for a competitor. Courts are often reluctant to enforce these restrictive covenants if they impose an unreasonable hardship on the ex-employee. They are strictly scrutinized as to their "reasonableness" in light of the facts and circumstances presented in each case.

Whether a non-compete is legally enforceable .
http://blog.lawdepot.com/the-non-compete-clause-is-it-enforceable/

so. as asked with out reading your contract we really dont know whats going on.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

I'll try to post up the agreement soon. Gotta dig it out of the filing cabinet. As far as today goes I'm going to go enjoy my day with my daughter. I let this irritate me enough yesterday, not letting it ruin my Sunday


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

does the contractor you worked for have deep pockets with a lawyer on his pay roll or is he a smaller operation. Seems like it would be a tough case for him to win


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

I also have a non compete (what would you do) type question. Let's say for instance that the client clearly states that next winter they do not want to renew the contract with the third party middle man contractor and instead want the sub contractor to bid on it directly. If you where the sub contractor would you honor the non compete contract that you signed and have to walk away from a six figure a winter paycheck, or would you go after the contract and take your chances in court? And for the record the client doesn't want to do business with the contractor anymore because they are sick of contractor screwing things up in the communication department


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Masssnowfighter;2077694 said:


> I also have a non compete (what would you do) type question. Let's say for instance that the client clearly states that next winter they do not want to renew the contract with the third party middle man contractor and instead want the sub contractor to bid on it directly. If you where the sub contractor would you honor the non compete contract that you signed and have to walk away from a six figure a winter paycheck, or would you go after the contract and take your chances in court? And for the record the client doesn't want to do business with the contractor anymore because they are sick of contractor screwing things up in the communication department


That's a dream for us all. The way I understand it is if you don't solicit their customers there's nothing they can do

Although I know a guy in Florida that wasn't allowed to do anything in the territory he sold his old company to. No advertising, sub contracting, etc.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I'm sorry, I don't compete, I dominate


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Masssnowfighter;2077687 said:


> does the contractor you worked for have deep pockets with a lawyer on his pay roll or is he a smaller operation. Seems like it would be a tough case for him to win


If he does have deep pockets he won't for long. Attorney fee's are no joke and are more than happy to blow smoke and take your money. No matter the outcome.

Huge company's have legal departments I highly doubt he could support that in this industry. I would think he would have better things to do than ride around and look at jobs he passed on and take pictures of the PO sites that he sold out and left them without a contractor.

If he wanted any interest in these property's he should of never fired the OP and keep him subbing. These actions by this contractor are unreasonable and childish. I think he's broke or greedy and wants to see if he could muscle the OP out of them so he can get them back.

This is actually comical,


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

So if the customer terminates the contractor then the customer solicits the sub contractor to work for them directly is the sub contractor free and clear of violating the non compete? I also just looked it up my home state is trying to join California and Colorado with abolishing non compete clauses


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

1olddogtwo;2077703 said:


> I'm sorry, I don't compete, I dominate


Are you chasing everybody with your loader with that big pusher on it? Thats dominating.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

FredG;2077706 said:


> If he does have deep pockets he won't for long. Attorney fee's are no joke and are more than happy to blow smoke and take your money. No matter the outcome.
> 
> Huge company's have legal departments I highly doubt he could support that in this industry. I would think he would have better things to do than ride around and look at jobs he passed on and take pictures of the PO sites that he sold out and left them without a contractor.
> 
> ...


Family member is going through a divorce right now. They have to pay $50 before opening or sending an email. I personally think there's too many lawyers in this country lol


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Masssnowfighter;2077711 said:


> So if the customer terminates the contractor then the customer solicits the sub contractor to work for them directly is the sub contractor free and clear of violating the non compete? I also just looked it up my home state is trying to join California and Colorado with abolishing non compete clauses


That's a different situation, If I was still subbing for the contractor and not fired and the contractor was dismissed from the job I'm not so sure I would be to eager to solicit the client then. Just don't seem right because the two contractors are still together. I don't think I would want to do that.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

FredG;2077733 said:


> That's a different situation, If I was still subbing for the contractor and not fired and the contractor was dismissed from the job I'm not so sure I would be to eager to solicit the client then. Just don't seem right because the two contractors are still together. I don't think I would want to do that.


Even if the contractor is constantly trying to screw you out of money,


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Masssnowfighter;2077694 said:


> I also have a non compete (what would you do) type question. Let's say for instance that the client clearly states that next winter they do not want to renew the contract with the third party middle man contractor and instead want the sub contractor to bid on it directly. If you where the sub contractor would you honor the non compete contract that you signed and have to walk away from a six figure a winter paycheck, or would you go after the contract and take your chances in court? And for the record the client doesn't want to do business with the contractor anymore because they are sick of contractor screwing things up in the communication department


This is different. You are not fired. You want to leave this employment and take employers customers with you. You want to break your word/agreement.

Only a lawyer will know what chance you have to break the no compete deal.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Masssnowfighter;2077787 said:


> Even if the contractor is constantly trying to screw you out of money,


Trying to screw you is not the same as screwing you.

If your getting paid the full amount then you will have a tough time to prove you are getting screwed and can go to court and break the agreement.

Again you will need a lawyer to find an out. Say he has to pay you by such a date and he takes an extra 30 days could be the loop hole that you need.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

32vld;2077803 said:


> This is different. You are not fired. You want to leave this employment and take employers customers with you. You want to break your word/agreement.
> 
> I'm not looking to leave this employment and take employers customers with me, the employer is getting terminated soon as the contract is up and the customer is trying to solicit me to take it over, so where does that leave me? Because the employer screwed up and couldn't keep his customer happy now Im outa a job because I signed a no compete?


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

1olddogtwo;2077703 said:


> I'm sorry, I don't compete, I dominate


Exactly.:yow!:


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

32vld;2077806 said:


> Trying to screw you is not the same as screwing you.
> 
> If your getting paid the full amount then you will have a tough time to prove you are getting screwed and can go to court and break the agreement.
> 
> Again you will need a lawyer to find an out. Say he has to pay you by such a date and he takes an extra 30 days could be the loop hole that you need.


For some reason, whenever I read your comments I always read it as if you are yelling. lol


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Masssnowfighter;2077694 said:


> I also have a non compete (what would you do) type question. Let's say for instance that the client clearly states that next winter they do not want to renew the contract with the third party middle man contractor and instead want the sub contractor to bid on it directly.* If you where the sub contractor would you honor the non compete contract that you signed and have to walk away from a six figure a winter paycheck, or would you go after the contract and take your chances in court?* And for the record the client doesn't want to do business with the contractor anymore because they are sick of contractor screwing things up in the communication department





Masssnowfighter;2077813 said:


> 32vld;2077803 said:
> 
> 
> > This is different. You are not fired. You want to leave this employment and take employers customers with you. You want to break your word/agreement.
> ...


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

KildonanSnowRem;2077822 said:


> For some reason, whenever I read your comments I always read it as if you are yelling. lol


What did you say?

Speak up.

Actually in another younger life I knew a little about typography and graphic art design. A serif type face has much higher legibility as well as does bumping up the size of the type face a bit. 

That and when you are getting older the eyes do not work as well either. Being there are so many cranky people here I figure it is due to old age and I am trying to not cause any of them to have further vision strain. 

Merry Christmas.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Masssnowfighter;2077787 said:


> Even if the contractor is constantly trying to screw you out of money,


Well if he's not paying you I would think you would have to quit him and go after him. I would still walk softly with the no compete thing. At least till the none payment thing was resolved. You would have to prove he was not paying you as agreed in your contract. Then you could do whatever you want cause you have no ties to him.

The OP's situation is totally different.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

This would be a good lesson for all reading this Thread - Do not sign Non Compete Contracts unless you are getting paid to "Not Compete" for the Duration of the Non Compete Agreement.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

in most non-completes you agree not to compete for an stated period of time regardless of the circumstances. 

Talk to a lawyer.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

basher;2078037 said:


> in most non-completes you agree not to compete for an stated period of time regardless of the circumstances.
> 
> Talk to a lawyer.


If true which I doubt. Forget the lawyer and the Judge and handle it yourself. I would not be muscled around by anybody like that. There's ways to handle unreasonable and childish idiots. I would keep a good eye on my back and equipment if I was that moron.

Most lawyers are more crooked than the contractor the OP is dealing with.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

My dad recently had to deal with one of these "non compete" issues. He owns a rather large commercial cleaning company and has many employees along with several supervisors. Now his non compete terms are that no employee may bid on one of his accounts. Not sure on the exact duration after termination but it is at least five years. Any way one of the supervisors quit then went and low balled 3 accounts away from my dad. Now what the court deemed reasonable was for the guy that quit was required to pay my dad for the duration stated in the non compete the profit that had been lost, not the entire value of the contracts. 

Now I know that is a bit different than the OP's situation but liked stated it all comes down to what the OP signed while being a sub. I know from much experience that judges don't care about hearsay, they care about what is in writing.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

kimber750;2078150 said:


> My dad recently had to deal with one of these "non compete" issues. He owns a rather large commercial cleaning company and has many employees along with several supervisors. Now his non compete terms are that no employee may bid on one of his accounts. Not sure on the exact duration after termination but it is at least five years. Any way one of the supervisors quit then went and low balled 3 accounts away from my dad. Now what the court deemed reasonable was for the guy that quit was required to pay my dad for the duration stated in the non compete the profit that had been lost, not the entire value of the contracts.
> 
> Now I know that is a bit different than the OP's situation but liked stated it all comes down to what the OP signed while being a sub. I know from much experience that judges don't care about hearsay, they care about what is in writing.


Of course there's a big difference between quitting and stealing jobs, Than being fired and making a living.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

FredG;2078046 said:


> If true which I doubt. Forget the lawyer and the Judge and handle it yourself. I would not be muscled around by anybody like that. There's ways to handle unreasonable and childish idiots. I would keep a good eye on my back and equipment if I was that moron.
> 
> Most lawyers are more crooked than the contractor the OP is dealing with.


 you can doubt all you want, read a law book or three. It's called a contract. You sign a legal document the courts will hold you to its tenets. Respond the way you are suggesting they will add criminal charges.

OP don't listen to all these jailhouse lawyers, consult with an attorney.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

basher;2078195 said:


> you can doubt all you want, read a law book or three. It's called a contract. You sign a legal document the courts will hold you to its tenets. Respond the way you are suggesting they will add criminal charges.
> 
> OP don't listen to all these jailhouse lawyers, consult with an attorney.


Perry Mason, Take a break the contract is void when he FIRED him. Criminal charges if you get caught and proven guilty, Just cause you signed a non compete it still has to be within the law.

Op don't worry about the do gooders, Keep plowing and don't worry about a thing. This contractor is having second thoughts about letting the work go. Get a attorney when you need it. Then this contractor will pay your legal fee's and tossed out of the court room. He sold your clients out and left them without a Contractor,

They knew you and your performance and wanted you for the service. I think this contractor is blowing smoke and you will probably never see a court room. If he wanted any interest in this job he should of kept you subbing not FIRED you. He relieved you of any obligations when he FIRED you.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

You do realize one of the reasons of a non compete is to keep former employees from stealing the employers contracts right? So being fired does not make a difference in a non compete that was writing by a person with half a brain. Again I am not sure about the OP's situations since his former employer supposedly canceled the contract and none of us have any idea what his non compete stated. 


The OP should talk with a lawyer.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

To the OP:

This the contract between the firing agent and your LLC or INC? Or is your personal name named in the contact as the outlined no compete agent?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Apparently Holiday Inn Express' were packed last night. 

I'm going with somewhere between basher\TCLA and SF\Buff.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

op was a subcontractor.
The general contractor got fired by the business.
the business is now soliciting the sub(op)

how can there be any competition for this business
when the general contractor is out of the picture?

op take a pic of this non compete and post it.
then we can get a better handle on it.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2078253 said:


> op was a subcontractor.
> The general contractor got fired by the business.
> the business is now soliciting the sub(op)
> 
> ...


Sno, The Op was subcontracting for a landscape Co. The landscape guy fired the op at the end of last snow season. Moving to this snow season the landscape guy did not want to renew contract with the PO's (biz) op's new clients because he was down sizing and only servicing his landscape clients.

Am I missing something, I been to claims court and can not see this landscape guy ever getting this past any Judge. He sold the op's new client out and did not renew his contract. The PO's contacted the op he got the job.

He fired the op, There is no more connection between the two party's. It wasn't like the op quit the landscape co and went after all his work when they were together. Landscape guy ended contract and no compete when fired the op.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG;2078350 said:


> Sno, The Op was subcontracting for a landscape Co. The landscape guy fired the op at the end of last snow season. Moving to this snow season the landscape guy did not want to renew contract with the PO's (biz) op's new clients because he was down sizing and only servicing his landscape clients.
> 
> Am I missing something, I been to claims court and can not see this landscape guy ever getting this past any Judge. He sold the op's new client out and did not renew his contract. The PO's contacted the op he got the job.
> 
> He fired the op, There is no more connection between the two party's. It wasn't like the op quit the landscape co and went after all his work when they were together. Landscape guy ended contract and no compete when fired the op.


Better yet and I had to go back and retread the ops post.

Yea, the noncompete is void in this instance as he is no longer offering them service, there is no longer any competition for said account.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Sorry guys, I meant to get the contract today and got busy with Christmas shopping. I'll dig it up for you though. I've pretty much decided I'm not backing away from this. This guy has a reputation for being difficult but I'm not going to be strong armed by anyone. If this guy wants to waste everyone's time in front of the magistrate so be it


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

SnoFarmer;2078253 said:


> then we can get a better handle on it.


Because obviously a number of these guys are members of the Bar in all 50 states and US territories.

Be sure to tell the Judge (if you get there) "the guys from Plowsite say":laughing:

Go see a lawyer.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

peteo1;2078723 said:


> Sorry guys, I meant to get the contract today and got busy with Christmas shopping. I'll dig it up for you though. I've pretty much decided I'm not backing away from this. This guy has a reputation for being difficult but I'm not going to be strong armed by anyone. If this guy wants to waste everyone's time in front of the magistrate so be it


Good for you, Never let anybody muscle you out of money.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

basher;2078771 said:


> Because obviously a number of these guys are members of the Bar in all 50 states and US territories.
> 
> Be sure to tell the Judge (if you get there) "the guys from Plowsite say":laughing:
> 
> Go see a lawyer.


Go ahead stir the sauce, We may not have law degree's but do have enough common sense to know when we got a blowhard knocking on are door.

We also have the brass to not let some unreasonable childish jerk muscle us around.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG;2078779 said:


> Go ahead stir the sauce, We may not have law degree's but do have enough common sense to know when we got a blowhard knocking on are door.
> 
> We also have the brass to not let some unreasonable childish jerk muscle us around.


Too many times the law has nothing to do with common sense. Or the courts.


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## mpriester (Oct 2, 2011)

Take Bashers advice and go consult with a lawyer just to be certain.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2078783 said:


> Too many times the law has nothing to do with common sense. Or the courts.


I agree but not in this situation. There nothing to compete about. Landscaper fired op and did not renew is contract with the said property op's new clients.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

kimber750;2078243 said:


> You do realize one of the reasons of a non compete is to keep former employees from stealing the employers contracts right? So being fired does not make a difference in a non compete that was writing by a person with half a brain. Again I am not sure about the OP's situations since his former employer supposedly canceled the contract and none of us have any idea what his non compete stated.
> 
> The OP should talk with a lawyer.


I guess you did not call me a half brain, My apologizes. Former employee's...I would never sign a non compete for longer than my employment. You should never sign anything that would come close to jeopardize your earnings and skilled trade or profession.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

basher;2078771 said:


> Because obviously a number of these guys are members of the Bar in all 50 states and US territories.
> 
> Be sure to tell the Judge (if you get there) "the guys from Plowsite say":laughing:
> 
> Go see a lawyer.


I think just reading that section would be rather self explanatory.

Not everything in this world takes a lawyer to decipher.

lastly, what will it hurt if we read it?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

This whole thread is just like a guy saying "I'm not a gynecologist but I would be glad to take a look and give you my opinion"


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

LapeerLandscape;2078848 said:


> This whole thread is just like a guy saying "I'm not a gynecologist but I would be glad to take a look and give you my opinion"


if she is hot why wouldn't ya take a look?

not every issue takes a doctor.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I wouldn't consult a lawyer till you have something from his...
If I ran to a lawyer everytime someone threatened to sue me (including some lawyers) I be a wreck.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

FredG;2078797 said:


> I guess you did not call me a half brain, My apologizes. Former employee's...I would never sign a non compete for longer than my employment. You should never sign anything that would come close to jeopardize your earnings and skilled trade or profession.


The point I was trying to make is that there is no standardized contract, each has different terms. All any one here is doing is guessing what it says. If the OP was really worried about it he would of already spoke with a lawyer.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

kimber750;2078861 said:


> The point I was trying to make is that there is no standardized contract, each has different terms. All any one here is doing is guessing what it says. If the OP was really worried about it he would of already spoke with a lawyer.


Post #55 The op is not worried about it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

We can discuss it.
and he can still choose to go to a lawyer or not.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Obviously many of you don't understand what a non compete are or how they work. Here it is in the most basic terms.

Noncompete Agreement
A contract limiting a party from competing with a business *after termination of employment* or completion of a business sale.
Found in some business contracts, noncompete agreements are designed to protect a business owner's investment by restricting potential competition. Generally, businesses pursue these agreements in two instances: when hiring new employees, or when purchasing an established business. The noncompete agreement is a form of Restrictive Covenant, a clause that adds limitations to the employment or sale contract. These agreements protect the business by restricting the other party from performing similar work for a specific period of time within a certain geographical area. First used in the nineteenth century, and common today in certain professions, noncompete agreements sometimes have an uncertain legal status. Courts do not always uphold them. Generally, courts evaluate such clauses for their reasonableness to determine whether they constitute an unfair restraint on trade.
The rationale behind noncompete agreements is an employer's self-interest. Typically, companies invest heavily in the training of their employees. Similarly, they have an interest in protecting their customer base, trade secrets, and other information vital to their success. The noncompete agreement is a form of protection against losses. The company does not wish to invest in an employee only to see the employee take the skills acquired, or the company's customers, to another employer. Thus, when hiring a new employee, the company may make her sign a noncompete agreement as part of a condition of employment. Likewise, the prospective purchaser of an established business may only buy it if the current owner is willing to sign a noncompete agreement.
In practice, such agreements are very specific in several respects. *Usually the agreement will define a length of time, geographic radius in miles, and type of activity in which the employee promises to refrain from working after leaving her or his job. This is often the case in businesses that depend on an established group of customers.* A hair salon, for example, may require its stylists to agree not to compete against it in neighboring hair salons. Noncompete agreements are also well established in fields where an individual is associated with a product or service. High-profile positions in the media typically require them. A television anchorwoman, for example, will typically be contractually bound not to work for a competing news channel in the same market for a period of time following the termination of her contract.
In legal challenges courts use a standard of reasonableness in deciding whether to uphold a noncompete agreement. *Most states use a three-part test: the agreement must be reasonable in terms of length of time, size of geographical territory included, and the business's necessity for the agreement. Covenants restricting the sellers of businesses typically receive a lower level of scrutiny, whereas restrictions on the behavior of former employees are closely scrutinized.*


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

basher;2079476 said:


> Obviously many of you don't understand what a non compete are or how they work. Here it is in the most basic terms.
> 
> Noncompete Agreement
> A contract limiting a party from competing with a business *after termination of employment* or completion of a business sale.
> ...


Okay and, You are ignoring the fact that the landscaper that the op has this agreement with made the decision not to service the op's new clients. Therefore where does the competition fall into play?

I still say this would not get passed any Judge or Jury as the landscapers actions are unreasonable. The landscaper still has to prove how this is affecting his business. There is also a clause in the law where you can not stop a guy from making a living in his profession.

The landscaper does not have a legitimate gripe as he passed on the work.


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

32vld;2077653 said:


> He has nothing by nothing.
> 
> He fired the OP.
> 
> ...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2078848 said:


> This whole thread is just like a guy saying "I'm not a gynecologist but I would be glad to take a look and give you my opinion"


LoL, You seen a enough of them were you could give a observation.Thumbs Up


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

FredG;2079491 said:


> The landscaper does not have a legitimate gripe *as he passed on the work*.


Prove it, that will be the court's position. How you going to do that? you really want to get your customer in the middle of something like this??? Won't be your customer long. Do you think the other guy is going to admit it in court? Do you have ANY type of proof outside of heresay.

You seem to think I am taking sides here. I don't give a carp except I'd hate to see the OP plow all season then have to give the money away.

You can argue right and wrong, common sense, etc but it all hinges on what was in the paper he signed, the length of the non compete, the laws in that state, the judge, the amount of time and money the OP wants to spend defending himself, lots of factors.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mr.Markus;2078856 said:


> I wouldn't consult a lawyer till you have something from his...
> If I ran to a lawyer everytime someone threatened to sue me (including some lawyers) I be a wreck.


For sure I agree, Threats have no value.


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

FredG;2079502 said:


> LoL, You seen a enough of them were you could give a observation.
> 
> Agreed .


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

basher;2079517 said:


> Prove it, that will be the court's position. How you going to do that? you really want to get your customer in the middle of something like this??? Won't be your customer long. Do you think the other guy is going to admit it in court? Do you have ANY type of proof outside of heresay.
> 
> You seem to think I am taking sides here. I don't give a carp except I'd hate to see the OP plow all season then have to give the money away.
> 
> You can argue right and wrong, common sense, etc but it all hinges on what was in the paper he signed, the length of the non compete, the laws in that state, the judge, the amount of time and money the OP wants to spend defending himself, lots of factors.


All it would take is a statement from the op's customer that the landscaper sold out and left them without a service provider. Since they contacted the op for service I don't think this would be a problem.

I am taking sides, The landscaper could of kept the op subbing if he wanted anything to do with the job or perform service himself. Therefor I think the landscaper is dishonest and unreasonable and pretty sure a judge would to.

Contracts and non compete are not set in stone. Just because you have a signed document does not mean you win in court. Was the document notarized. I been to claims court enough to know it is not that easy.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Some are making big assumptions as to what is in or what is not in his non-compete .
Without reading it your just speculating.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Does anyone know how to unsubscribe from a monotonous thread???


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2079570 said:


> Some are making big assumptions as to what is in or what is not in his non-compete .
> Without reading it your just speculating.


How do any of us know this landscaper did not write this non compete in his office to his advantage only. I could be a loan shark with a signed document where you agree to pay 35% percent interest. Does anyone think I would win in court? Your document has to be within the law and it you really want to get into it should be notarized.

To me how the non compete is worded has no value in this situation. How are you competing when the landscaper refused service to the op's clients? Any property the landscaper refuses to service is free game. How do you compete with somebody that refuses to compete?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

^ you could be right Fred,
it could be Swiss cheese.

who knows.......


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Philbilly2;2079599 said:


> Does anyone know how to unsubscribe from a monotonous thread???


If it's boring to you don't respond, You don't have to insult the ones that are participating.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;2079649 said:


> ^ you could be right Fred,
> it could be Swiss cheese.
> 
> who knows.......


Right, contracts are never voided by courts.

Besides, who cares what an armchair Google lawyer says.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

basher;2079476 said:


> Obviously many of you don't understand what a non compete are or how they work. Here it is in the most basic terms.
> 
> Noncompete Agreement
> A contract limiting a party from competing with a business *after termination of employment* or completion of a business sale.
> ...


^got his degree from Google-law
What site did you copy that from?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2079653 said:


> Right, contracts are never voided by courts.
> 
> Besides, who cares what an armchair Google lawyer says.


I had one voided by the city, Never made it to court. I contacted my attorney he said forget it.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2079657 said:


> ^got his degree from Google-law
> What site did you copy that from?


Yea a link may have been more convincing.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

Philbilly2;2079599 said:


> Does anyone know how to unsubscribe from a monotonous thread???


Top right - Thread tools - Unsubscribe

But why - it is just getting started.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If there weren't grey areas in contract law, there wouldn't be contract lawyers. There wouldn't be lawsuits regarding contracts. 

So there is NO definitive answer to this question. 

Maybe the contract is legal but because of the circumstances, the judge throws it oot. 

Besides, why would the customer care? They're already involved, they asked Pete to continue providing service that the other idiot refused to. Which, in all reality, means Pete is not competing against this idiot. Which brings us back to the possibility that the non-compete is null and void. Strictly by definition.


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## ThatGuySnowPlow (Dec 6, 2015)

All assumptions until the other party is willing to post the contract! Why get worked up over nothing that has not been provided to go off of!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ThatGuySnowPlow;2079778 said:


> All assumptions until the other party is willing to post the contract! Why get worked up over nothing that has not been provided to go off of!


No snow and no NSP's to play with.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ThatGuySnowPlow;2079778 said:


> All assumptions until the other party is willing to post the contract! Why get worked up over nothing that has not been provided to go off of!


I don't think the op wants his business all over the public. It's does not matter what the non compete states. Why do you think he did not post it.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2079781 said:


> No snow and no NSP's to play with.


LoL, Don't you think everybody's testosterone and temper's are fired up enough out of boredom. Mention NSP's somebody might really crack.:laughing::laughing:


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## Doin_It (Jul 22, 2008)

basher;2078771 said:


> Because obviously a number of these guys are members of the Bar in all 50 states and US territories.
> 
> Be sure to tell the Judge (if you get there) "the guys from Plowsite say":laughing:
> 
> Go see a lawyer.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

SnoFarmer;2079657 said:


> ^got his degree from Google-law
> What site did you copy that from?


Online legal dictionary, easier then typing it all out, don't all you jailhouse lawyers have in on your favorites bar? Of course taking time to research what you're talking about would take too much effort you'd rather rely on "common sense" and what you think you know.

Law school isn't hard, just takes a bachelors degree, a little time and money, same with engineering, pay the money take the classes. Try it sometime, who knows what you might learn. Of course to practice you will have to pass the bar in the states you want to practice in because the laws in each state differ.

Been fun guys, amusing reading, and I'll be looking for Fred G on MMA/UFC but I to go do some important things like change the blinky fluid in my turn signals.

Have a Merry Christmas.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

basher;2080402 said:


> Online legal dictionary, easier then typing it all out, don't all you jailhouse lawyers have in on your favorites bar? Of course taking time to research what you're talking about would take too much effort you'd rather rely on "common sense" and what you think you know.
> 
> Law school isn't hard, just takes a bachelors degree, a little time and money, same with engineering, pay the money take the classes. Try it sometime, who knows what you might learn. Of course to practice you will have to pass the bar in the states you want to practice in because the laws in each state differ.
> 
> ...


That would be my son you will see on UFC. You could probably catch me in the VIP. To be blunt I would think a monkey would know that it takes two to compete. When one refuses to service that puts him out.

For gods sake is it really that hard to figure out. FYI judges are elected officials and plenty of them do not have law degree's. Does every juror have a law degree? Quit being stubborn you can figure this out.

None of us are saying that a non compete is worthless just in the op's situation. Now go put your blinky fluid in and try to do it where you won't need a attorney.

Merry Christmas


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Fred,
you Have to forgive Basser, he doesn't have to live up his own standards.
you see If you or I cut and past he'll be all over ya for it but if he does it it's all rainbows and unicorns.

You have to member, he is a "expert witness":laughing:

He doesn't hold a masters or a doctrite in nothing but installing trailer hitches and only like 1% of those folks are experts.

the more ya know.


and marry Christmas to you. Thumbs Up:waving:


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I took criminal law at the county college for a while. I no, different area but, until you see the contract its all hearsay. The judge can do what ever he sees fit for the circumstances. The suing party can always appeal. Depends on how far he wants to pursue it. And how much money he wants to spend on an attorney.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I studied criminal law at the police academy
and criminology in college.
yes, i did graduate.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night. 

And a class in business law in college......I passed.....the class and got my degree.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2080496 said:


> I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


Pissed off the wife.......eh.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF;2080528 said:


> Pissed off the wife.......eh.


My people skills need some fine tuning. Thumbs Up


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

BUFF;2080528 said:


> Pissed off the wife.......eh.


By Holiday Inn Exp he means couch...Thumbs Up


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2080529 said:


> My people skills need some fine tuning. Thumbs Up


...............


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2080457 said:


> Fred,
> you Have to forgive Basser, he doesn't have to live up his own standards.
> you see If you or I cut and past he'll be all over ya for it but if he does it it's all rainbows and unicorns.
> 
> ...


Yes I took some lessons to. Life long hard lessons. I think I'm old enough to know when I got a blowhard at my door and can handle it to.

And older friend of mine is a Judge and owns a successful scrap business and is a Town Judge (elected) with no college. This could only make it to small claims as it is only two small lots.

He is a very nice guy and been hanging with him for a while. But when the BS comes his way he is meaner and as slick as a snake and will hit you between the eyes in a NY minute. I would love to see this landscaper that refuses to work in front of this Guy and his attorney for that matter.

Forget basher he is only worried about his own agenda. The facts and common sense mean nothing. I suppose I will be advised I need a Doctor for a common cold next.:laughing::laughing:

Merry Christmas, I have to get some chow and booze so I can start my food and drink coma. Later


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## CARDOCTOR (Nov 29, 2002)

non compete means non compete. doesnt matter how it went quit ,fired whatever . you may have to buy him out or give up the contract. i guess you could have a friend or ghost company take over the contract and then you service the site until the clause expires.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Have a Marry one.:waving:

As in many instances, the Court of Appeals referred to a decision of the Ohio Supreme Court for guidance. That case said that in order to enforce a non-compete clause, an employer had to show by clear and convincing evidence that the restrictions met three guidelines:
The restrictions were no greater than necessary for the protection of the employer's legitimate
business interest;
The restrictions did not impose undue hardship on the employee; and
The restrictions were not injurious to the public.
The Court also pointed to several questions to consider when making the determination that a non- compete clause is reasonable:
Does the clause have geographic or time limits?
Is the employee the sole customer contact?
Does the employee possess confidential information or trade secrets?
Does the non-compete clause seek to restrain ordinary rather than unfair competition?
Does the clause stifle pre-existing skills of the employee, or those skills vhich were developed while the individual was working for that specific employer?
How does the non-compete clause work to the detriment of the employer and the employee?
Does the clause restrict the employee's sole means of support .
- See more at: http://corporate.findlaw.com/busine...d-a-court-challenge.html#sthash.J3dFJGIz.dpuf


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

CARDOCTOR;2080617 said:


> non compete means non compete. doesnt matter how it went quit ,fired whatever . you may have to buy him out or give up the contract. i guess you could have a friend or ghost company take over the contract and then you service the site until the clause expires.


Not true, The landscaper failed to compete, He refused to renew contract with OP's new clients. I will agree on the ghost friend thing if that's what it comes down to. He's leasing his equipment and hired as driver.

Merry Christmas.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2080635 said:


> Have a Marry one.:waving:
> 
> As in many instances, the Court of Appeals referred to a decision of the Ohio Supreme Court for guidance. That case said that in order to enforce a non-compete clause, an employer had to show by clear and convincing evidence that the restrictions met three guidelines:
> The restrictions were no greater than necessary for the protection of the employer's legitimate
> ...


Good work SnoFarm. Now can we put an end to this mess...Thumbs Up


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2080635 said:


> Have a Marry one.:waving:
> 
> As in many instances, the Court of Appeals referred to a decision of the Ohio Supreme Court for guidance. That case said that in order to enforce a non-compete clause, an employer had to show by clear and convincing evidence that the restrictions met three guidelines:
> The restrictions were no greater than necessary for the protection of the employer's legitimate
> ...


Interesting reading, Unless I'm not understanding something I would say this has pretty much put this discussion to rest. I bet that landscaper did not follow any of them laws. Even if he had all three factors it would not pertain to this situation. Appealed and still lost. Just think the monies that dealer put out for legal fee's.

Over a sales manager, Good closer are not that hard to find. No wonder some states are Illegal to have non competes. What a waste of a courts time.Later


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2080649 said:


> Good work SnoFarm. Now can we put an end to this mess...Thumbs Up


Sno, I agree, Good work putting this to rest.Thumbs Up


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