# Pretty cool setup



## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

Saw this at a customer this morning. Pretty cool setup for a back blade and tailgate spreader.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

"Pretty Cool", "Sketchy as hell", definitely one of those.

I'd be curious to see how they bolted that underneath the bed


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

Sketchy? It a hitch that's flipped over and through bolted to the frame. Not nearly as sketchy as the guys that weld a receiver on their back blade.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Drock78 said:


> Sketchy? It a hitch that's flipped over and through bolted to the frame. Not nearly as sketchy as the guys that weld a receiver on their back blade.


My concern is that the frame rails don't sit flush against the underside of the bed, so significant fabricating would be needed to secure it to the frame properly. Not that it isn't doable, I'd just be interested to see if it was done properly. But you do make a fair point.


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

Valid point. I didn't inspect it that close.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Drock78 said:


> Valid point. I didn't inspect it that close.


If while driving around Grand Rapids you see a TG spreader in the middle of the road behind a red pickup with 6 big a$$ holes torn through the bed, you'll know the answer.


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

Lmao right.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

also, that is a factory GM hitch, does not appear he used the two holes on each side of the 2" receiver just above (well, below in this case) the chain hooks

those 2 holes have to be used to get the any stable rating what so ever.

But good idea non the less


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> also, that is a factory GM hitch, are the two holes on each side of the 2" receiver just above (well, below in this case) the chain hooks
> 
> those 2 holes have to be used to get the any stable rating what so ever.
> 
> But good idea non the less


Good point. Change my post to "4" big a$$ holes.


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

cwren2472 said:


> My concern is that the frame rails don't sit flush against the underside of the bed, so significant fabricating would be needed to secure it to the frame properly. Not that it isn't doable, I'd just be interested to see if it was done properly. But you do make a fair point.


I think you're trying to think too much. Serious fabricating could equal wood blocks to fill that space. It's a 600lb spreader not an aircraft carrier.

I like the ingenuity, while I am not surprised to see folks saying it's sketchy, based on 2 photos that hardly show how it's mounted, I am sure it works very well and will continue to work without the owner worrying about people trashing his custom work.

When used upside down, those 2 holes mean nothing for a 600lb salt spreader. It's upside down, and that portion is being pushed down regardless, it's not going to flip up and defy gravity. Heck, i've seen about a dozen hitches installed on gms that don't have anything in those 2 holes and that's when they're actually installed under the vehicle where those 2 bolts might make ad ifference. Yes, you need it to have the warranty, but your'e not going to break your hitch off without using those with a salt spreader. My last truck pulled 3k lbs daily enclosed trailer without those 2 bolts. crazy....


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

rippinryno said:


> I like the ingenuity, while I am not surprised to see folks saying it's sketchy, based on 2 photos that hardly show how it's mounted, I am sure it works very well and will continue to work without the owner worrying


I'm glad to hear of your confidence. That will be very reassuring the the family of the minivan that it ends up on the hood of.



rippinryno said:


> When used upside down, those 2 holes mean nothing for a 600lb salt spreader. It's upside down, and that portion is being pushed down regardless, it's not going to flip up and defy gravity.


I think you are not understanding how physics works. The point of those two bolts is to reduce the strain on the hitch tube from the tongue load. the fact that it is upside down does not magically eliminate that stress on the tube.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> I'm glad to hear of your confidence. That will be very reassuring the the family of the minivan that it ends up on the hood of.
> 
> I think you are not understanding how physics works. The point of those two bolts is to reduce the strain on the hitch tube from the tongue load. the fact that it is upside down does not magically eliminate that stress on the tube.


don't waste your time tying to explain to him.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> don't waste your time tying to explain to him.


I felt myself getting sucked down the quicksand as I typed it


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

It needs to snow or something lol. You guys are edgy. I just thought it was an interesting way to have both.


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

cwren2472 said:


> I'm glad to hear of your confidence. That will be very reassuring the the family of the minivan that it ends up on the hood of.
> 
> I think you are not understanding how physics works. The point of those two bolts is to reduce the strain on the hitch tube from the tongue load. the fact that it is upside down does not magically eliminate that stress on the tube.


So the fact that it's not hanging and is supported because it's sitting on the bed vs hanging from the bed has no factor in eliminating the stress on the hitch tube? Also, the point of those two bolts isn't to reduce stress on hitch tube, it's to reduce stress on where the hitch tube mounts to the frame supports. In this case the fram is bolted upside down and the weight of the spreader will only enhance that. When it's bolted on a truck it's the complete opposite.

I think it's a great idea and thanks for sharing, I do get tired of some of the constant negative people assuming things aren't right....because nobody can do it as good as these guys.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

rippinryno said:


> When used upside down, those 2 holes mean nothing for a 600lb salt spreader. It's upside down, and that portion is being pushed down regardless, it's not going to flip up and defy gravity.


You are wrong. The hitch portion will be 2" off the bed. You are relying on the 4 welds were the circle tube meets the frame rail connection points.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

rippinryno said:


> because it's sitting on the bed


It is not sitting on the bed, it is 2" in the air


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

it's being pushed down, it's not going to fly up, the weight of the spreader is going to hold that thing in place. A hitch would be hanging, if you had 600lbs hanging it's quite different. that hitch is overkill for a dinky salt spreader like that, quit hustling about it, that setup is real nice and a good idea to boot.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Drock78 said:


> It needs to snow or something lol. You guys are edgy. I just thought it was an interesting way to have both.


I like it. I think it is a hell of an idea. I just hate those GM hitches. They are sketchy when used properly. :laugh: The fact that you have to bolt it to the bumper to get the rating... 

Look up GM hitch failure. Tons of people have gotten in bad accidents from those hitches failing.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

rippinryno said:


> it's being pushed down, it's not going to fly up, the weight of the spreader is going to hold that thing in place. A hitch would be hanging, if you had 600lbs hanging it's quite different. that hitch is overkill for a dinky salt spreader like that, quit hustling about it, that setup is real nice and a good idea to boot.


Here... will a picture help????


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

Lots of people never get those bumper bolts in to begin with. Too much debris ends up in them, or they aren't even tapped correctly from the factory and end up stripped. That's when things fail when people are pushing major weight on the tongue. 

I personally have had issues where instead of trying to bolt it on i just put a couple welds on the area that meets the bumper.

With the weight of that spreader holding that hitch down, most of the stress will be where the hitch bolts to the bed in the rear most bolt holes. that portion where the 2 bolts go into the frame won't have any issues and isnt' a weak spot for a 600lb spreader.


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

I honestly don't know squat about the GM hitch setup so I can't speak but I can say I'll bet we've all seen much sketchier stuff rolling down the road. This truck likely only leaves the property to get gas.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

rippinryno said:


> With the weight of that spreader holding that hitch down, most of the stress will be where the hitch bolts to the bed in the rear most bolt holes.


EDIT: nevermind


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

rippinryno said:


> it's being pushed down, it's not going to fly up, the weight of the spreader is going to hold that thing in place.


So, hell, why even bolt it to the bed? Gravity is going to just hold it in place, right?

I hope @Aerospace Eng ate a breakfast easy on the stomach before he gets to this thread.


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

I think i explained in my post where most of the strain will be. If that thing is bolt through the frame it's not sketchy that's all i'm going to say. It's also not holding anything close to what it's rated for, unless it's a basic class 3 hitch. 

we dont' need aerospace engineers or rocket science, this isnt' that. It's what people do all the time, and i think when people go upset about it and assume it's sketchy is where the issues start, so...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

rippinryno said:


> I think i explained in my post where most of the strain will be. If that thing is bolt through the frame it's not sketchy that's all i'm going to say. It's also not holding anything close to what it's rated for, unless it's a basic class 3 hitch.
> 
> we dont' need aerospace engineers or rocket science, this isnt' that. It's what people do all the time, and i think when people go upset about it and assume it's sketchy is where the issues start, so...


K


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

It may be a good idea, but with respect to the execution, I'm going to agree with cwren and philbilly on this. That is sketchy, regardless of how it is attached to the bed or frame.

Long winded version....

If we consider the forces involved.... The push/pull, side to side, and vertical loads into the hitch have to get reacted out in the structure.

The two bolts closest to the hitch receiver are important force reaction points. Otherwise, it's just the welds between the tubes and the brackets that have to react all of the linear and torsional forces (the up/down and fore/aft forces create a twisting moment between the tube and brackets without the two bolts installed). Based on what I can see, the tube/bracket welds aren't designed to take all, or even most, of the hitch loads. 

Whether it's a push frame or a hitch, or anything structural, bending loads should be designed out as much as possible.

Therefore, even if the brackets are well attached to the frame through the bed, without the center bracket being supported and the bolts installed, this is sketchy.


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

sketchy is relative. In this industry, that is nowhere near sketchy.

As an engineer, what are you estimates that this will fail with a full load of salt? 

Also, as an engineer and being a non technical person myself....you know that's where the communication struggles happen anyway.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

rippinryno said:


> sketchy is relative. In this industry, that is nowhere near sketchy.


When I labeled it sketchy, it was just @cwren2472 being a jerk as usual.

If an engineer labels it sketchy, then it is officially sketchy.


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

I've seen guys who welded a receiver to the top of the back blade and have spreader on it. That is sketchy and probably flexes more than Hulk Hogan.


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

I should show him my plow and truck setup. Might make this look like the eiffel tower.

better yet, watch my pull the 3k lbs trailer across the yard with my craftsman riding mower. that'll blow your mind.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

What else is sketchy is that you saw him at "your customers" place...


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

Mr.Markus said:


> What else is sketchy is that you saw him at "your customers" place...


Yes. A customers place. Its their plow truck for their lot. I work for a rather large environmental company and was there for used oil pickup


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

how much do you pay to pick up used oil, i've got 2 55 gallons i need picked up in illinois.


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

Currently not paying for used oil. The will probably come get it at no charge though.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

rippinryno said:


> sketchy is relative. In this industry, that is nowhere near sketchy.
> 
> As an engineer, what are you estimates that this will fail with a full load of salt?
> 
> Also, as an engineer and being a non technical person myself....you know that's where the communication struggles happen anyway.


What kind of engineer are you?

Your question about failure with a load of salt actually proves everyone's point. It's not the loading that the part was designed for, so it's up to the person who is adapting it to ensure that it is OK. It clearly doesn't have its intended support. Therefore, it is sketchy until proven otherwise. If you want to defend it, make a good free-body diagram and do the math.

Whether it is sketchy or not "for this industry" doesn't change whether it is well thought out.

I'm sure we have all done things that in retrospect we would label sketchy. It doesn't make it right.

There are many aviation accidents where the pilots thought it was OK because "We did it before."

Normalization of deviance doesn't make the deviance correct.

Here's a picture that has been on the internet for quite some time.










This one came from someone on this site, but I can't remember who.










Sketchy can work - until it doesn't.

My mind won't be blown by whatever you or someone else does, just don't expect me to be sympathetic when it eventually goes wrong.

At any rate, I think I am done with this thread.

I don't have an opinion as to whether it is a decent idea from a utility point of view, since I've never salted or used a back blade.

I do have an opinion that the execution is sketchy.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Sketchy can work - until it doesn't.
> My mind won't be blown by whatever you or someone else does, just don't expect me to be sympathetic when it eventually goes wrong.












I only wish you had broken that into multiple posts as there are like 5 different things in there deserving separate "likes"


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Aerospace Eng said:


> If you want to defend it, make a good free-body diagram and do the math.


Hey hey....knock it off, we don't allow math on plowsite...


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Aerospace Eng said:


> What kind of engineer are you?
> 
> Your question about failure with a load of salt actually proves everyone's point. It's not the loading that the part was designed for, so it's up to the person who is adapting it to ensure that it is OK. It clearly doesn't have its intended support. Therefore, it is sketchy until proven otherwise. If you want to defend it, make a good free-body diagram and do the math.
> 
> ...


Normally I highly respect everything you say, but this time you crossed the line.

I see nothing wrong with those non sketchy pictures.

Just kidding.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I guess sometimes sketchy comes down to our own personal comfort levels .

One man's sketchy could be another man's bomber prof.

So being curious, I walked outside and looked at the receiver hitch on my three-quarter ton truck and there are no bolts in that plate bolting it to the bumper.
I'm my opinion the Bumper has a structural integrity of a beer can...
All of the rotational or downward force is being transferred from the tube to the plate.

So I'll give it a not sketchy...

It will be only sketchy when he exceeds the weight rating of the hitch, like most other truck owners do.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

rippinryno said:


> It's also not holding anything close to what it's rated for, unless it's a basic class 3 hitch.


Those stock GM hitches with the bolts on each side of the hitch only have between 500 and 1000 lbs on tongue load capacity. (and that is with those two bolts in place)

Western 1000 spreader holds 8 cu ft

8 cu ft of salt is about 650lbs +/-

The salter tare is around 100lbs

So I think you are much closer than you would think.


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

Probably a $300 option for the heavy duty tow package


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Hydromaster said:


> View attachment 198628
> View attachment 198629
> I guess sometimes sketchy comes down to our own personal comfort levels .
> 
> ...


not the same hitch...


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

You won't believe how many gm trucks out there do not have bolts on those plates. I've seen dozens that aren't bolted to bumper but are bolted to the frame only and there's often times a gap where things have started to flex a little, becuase people are loading up thousands of lbs of tongue weight.

That's why this is all relative, i've seen the photos above with the ladder on the loader and the double forklift....i'll go with sketchy on those as there's plenty of things that could go wrong there. But if you're telling me that hitch can't handle 600lbs of salt in a spreader the way it's bolted up, i'll tell you, unless it's got massive rust internally that I can't see, I know it ain't going nowhere, and that's based on the fact that i've seen the same hitch hold thousands of lbs.

It takes a true engineer though, and a novel of words to tell me how sketchy something is based on their "engineer is always right' attitude. How about, i've seen them, used them, and know how they work.

This very cool plow setup, if bolted to the frame is at a zero risk of failure the way it sits with a 600lb salt spreader. Sketchy is not in the vocab, but of course, since we're all skeptics, it's way sketchy because engineer said so, and engineer is always right.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

rippinryno said:


> Also, as an engineer and being a non technical person myself....you know that's where the communication struggles happen anyway.





Aerospace Eng said:


> What kind of engineer are you?


Never answered this question...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Philbilly2 said:


> not the same hitch...


the forces are being transferred in a rotational torque like up and down to the where the tube connects to the plate ,just like was noted as sketchy by an engineer.

What if I flip that hitch up side down and then didn't put any bolts in some holes that people saw in the picture?

Would it be sketchy toO?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Hydromaster said:


> the forces are being transferred in a rotational torque from the tube to the plate just like was noted as sketchy by an engineer


Not even welded on the back sides


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

I'll take the sketchy spreader riding around a 5 acre lot over 75% of the people towing down the highway with an underrated hitch assembly.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Philbilly2 said:


> Not even welded on the back sides
> 
> View attachment 198633


I'll go look


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Same 
Welded on one side of the plates


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

That doesn't look sketchy at all...lol


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

Those hitches tend to fail because people don't know what tongue weight means and the tend to overload or misload their trailers. i can't tell you how many lawn care guys i see rolling around with full dump trailers on 1500 pickups. Better yet, a whole bunch of equipment slammed to the front of the trailer....putting thousands of lbs on the tongue. 

I also recall working for the park district and loading up 7k on a dual axle trailer with thousands of lbs on the tongue and a bumper hitch...yup.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Hmm I looked at the pics and can't even see what was done or why. I read all the posts and came to conclusion I have no opinion or insight, hmm time to move on I guess.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> Here... will a picture help????
> 
> View attachment 198604
> View attachment 198605


Wow, Your shop isn't insulated?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> If while driving around Grand Rapids you see a TG spreader in the middle of the road behind a red pickup with 6 big a$$ holes torn through the bed, you'll know the answer.


That'll only happen on Fantasy Island on one of Gilligan's rigs.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

That hitch will probably last longer than my half ton if we ever take it out again...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> Wow, Your shop isn't insulated?


1" Polystyrene Foam on walls and ceiling (like an R7 value)

ah... the beauty of in floor heat...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Wow, that was heavy! Way beyond my brain capability's. I know one thing, you could force, bribe anything for me to have anything to do with that ladder in that tree or that forklift operation. That's not ballsy that's stupidity.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> 1" Polystyrene Foam on walls and ceiling (like an R7 value)
> 
> ah... the beauty of in floor heat...


10-4...I think I went overkill on insulation, but yes, in floor heat is an awesome thing


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

Aerospace Eng said:


> What kind of engineer are you?
> 
> Your question about failure with a load of salt actually proves everyone's point. It's not the loading that the part was designed for, so it's up to the person who is adapting it to ensure that it is OK. It clearly doesn't have its intended support. Therefore, it is sketchy until proven otherwise. If you want to defend it, make a good free-body diagram and do the math.
> 
> ...


^^Just wondering if that arborist was wearing his chaps for safety / OSHA


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> 10-4...I think I went overkill on insulation, but yes, in floor heat is an awesome thing


I priced out having the ceiling of the building spray foamed and it was going to take me like 20-30 years to recoup the cost with how cheap my gas bills are. Don't make dollars... don't make cents...

Insulation usually is typically where you see your best return from what I understand, but I think that radiant floor heat kinda throws the math for a loop...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Philbilly2 said:


> I priced out having the ceiling of the building spray foamed and it was going to take me like 20-30 years to recoup the cost with how cheap my gas bills are. Don't make dollars... don't make cents...
> 
> Insulation usually is typically where you see your best return from what I understand, but I think that radiant floor heat kinda throws the math for a loop...


There ewe go again with the math stuff......


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Philbilly2 said:


> I priced out having the ceiling of the building spray foamed and it was going to take me like 20-30 years to recoup the cost with how cheap my gas bills are. Don't make dollars... don't make cents...
> 
> Insulation usually is typically where you see your best return from what I understand, but I think that radiant floor heat kinda throws the math for a loop...


I'm guessing your guys did the work in your shop, but what does something like that cost a sqft to have installed?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

JMHConstruction said:


> I'm guessing your guys did the work in your shop, but what does something like that cost a sqft to have installed?


Total building or just the floor heating system?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Philbilly2 said:


> Total building or just the floor heating system?


Just the floor heating, and everything involved there


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

JMHConstruction said:


> Just the floor heating, and everything involved there


Well... this building is kinda different than a typical as we have 2 separate boilers because we set the building up so that if we wanted to, it could be two completely separate units (only sharing the well and septic system)

So we have quite a bit of redundancy that would not typically be needed.

But to answer your question, I would say were in the neighborhood of about $1.00 sq/ft for the work under the concrete and with the boilers and all the BS that goes into them... in the area of $1.25 sq/ft per boiler setup.

So $2.25 to $2.50 sq/ft in materials. Labor rate will vary by if you have union/non union and just flat out what the area brings for labor rates period.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> I priced out having the ceiling of the building spray foamed and it was going to take me like 20-30 years to recoup the cost with how cheap my gas bills are. Don't make dollars... don't make cents...
> 
> Insulation usually is typically where you see your best return from what I understand, but I think that radiant floor heat kinda throws the math for a loop...


Agree, that's why I did 12in of cellulose in my ceiling for about $800...We put a heavy duty house wrap between the framing and metal on walls & roof ..then sprayed 3in of closed cell on the walls, then 4in R13 bat over that before putting on our final wall coverings. Basically I'm about R35"ish" everywhere, maybe more...Of course the floor (6.5in thick) has about 3.5in of foam underneath & 2in around the perimeter.



Philbilly2 said:


> Well... this building is kinda different than a typical as we have 2 separate boilers because we set the building up so that if we wanted to, it could be two completely separate units (only sharing the well and septic system)
> 
> So we have quite a bit of redundancy that would not typically be needed.
> 
> ...


Granted we've done most of the work in house on our new shop, my plumber did Most of the work on install/setup of boiler system unit. I would have to go back and look, but I want to say my in floor heat system cost over $4.5/sq ft total (boiler,insulation, pex, labor, etc)


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)




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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> Not even welded on the back sides
> 
> View attachment 198633
> [/QU
> What are those welds going to hold? The rings are holding back and forth and up and down. They could hold it from going side to side or pivoting but I don't think that's where most of the force is.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

plow4beer said:


> 10-4...I think I went overkill on insulation, but yes, in floor heat is an awesome thing


Yes it is


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Just when I want to talk about this hitch/spreader you guys saw a squirrel.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

plow4beer said:


> View attachment 198745
> View attachment 198744


I have inspected these photos closely...I don't see any empty beer cans anywhere...Very disappointing


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> Agree, that's why I did 12in of cellulose in my ceiling for about $800...We put a heavy duty house wrap between the framing and metal on walls & roof ..then sprayed 3in of closed cell on the walls, then 4in R13 bat over that before putting on our final wall coverings. Basically I'm about R35"ish" everywhere, maybe more...Of course the floor (6.5in thick) has about 3.5in of foam underneath & 2in around the perimeter.
> 
> Granted we've done most of the work in house on our new shop, my plumber did Most of the work on install/setup of boiler system unit. I would have to go back and look, but I want to say my in floor heat system cost over $4.5/sq ft total (boiler,insulation, pex, labor, etc)


That sounds right to me. Typically labor is as much if not more than the material in my area.

I typically bid them between $4-$8 bucks a square foot for install. All depends on size of building and how complex the zoning/ boiler system they choose to go with.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> That sounds right to me. Typically labor is as much if not more than the material in my area.
> 
> I typically bid them between $4-$8 bucks a square foot for install. All depends on size of building and how complex the zoning/ boiler system they choose to go with.


I'd think mine would've been closer to the $8 Mark, than $4, had I "hired" it all out. I actually bought all the material direct from the supply house at plumbers cost.

What did you put for insulation in the floor?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> Agree, that's why I did 12in of cellulose in my ceiling for about $800...We put a heavy duty house wrap between the framing and metal on walls & roof ..then sprayed 3in of closed cell on the walls, then 4in R13 bat over that before putting on our final wall coverings. Basically I'm about R35"ish" everywhere, maybe more...Of course the floor (6.5in thick) has about 3.5in of foam underneath & 2in around the perimeter.


Sounds about what I did on my shed at my house. Only an inch of foam under the tube, but very similar on the walls and ceiling. Buried underground lines to my boiler in my basement that does the basement and attached garages. Since the shed is so tight, it does not take that many BTUs to keep it at 60


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> I'd think mine would've been closer to the $8 Mark, than $4, had I "hired" it all out. I actually bought all the material direct from the supply house at plumbers cost.
> 
> What did you put for insulation in the floor?


My work building has 1" pink board on the 2000 sq ft side, and 2" pink board on the 3000 sq ft side.

House garages have 1", basement has 1/2", shed is 1" also.

When you install the stuff for a living, you try stuff on your own place to see if it works before you push it on a customer...


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> My work building has 1" pink board on the 2000 sq ft side, and 2" pink board on the 3000 sq ft side.
> 
> House garages have 1", basement has 1/2", shed is 1" also.
> 
> When you install the stuff for a living, you try stuff on your own place to see if it works before you push it on a customer...


Agreed....Every heated floor I've done (on post frame structures) in the past 5-6yrs has been done exactly the same as what I did. It works...Well.

As for my insulation on the walls/ceiling, I copied a customer I have, that works for our local big gas/elec provider. After being aRound his building over the last couple yrs, and seeing how efficient & nice it's been, I did the same.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Defcon 5 said:


> I have inspected these photos closely...I don't see any empty beer cans anywhere...Very disappointing


Only way I can explain, is that we throw our empties in the garbage....and the open one must've been in my hand when I took these pics ..?...


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> Sounds about what I did on my shed at my house. Only an inch of foam under the tube, but very similar on the walls and ceiling. Buried underground lines to my boiler in my basement that does the basement and attached garages. Since the shed is so tight, it does not take that many BTUs to keep it at 60





Philbilly2 said:


> My work building has 1" pink board on the 2000 sq ft side, and 2" pink board on the 3000 sq ft side.
> 
> House garages have 1", basement has 1/2", shed is 1" also.
> 
> When you install the stuff for a living, you try stuff on your own place to see if it works before you push it on a customer...


FWIW, Our coldest month cost $60 to heat the 42x72x16 shop this winter...that was keeping it set @62 at all times. I thought that was pretty good.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

So not soo cool?


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Is the roof flat? Is there a loft above the ceiling?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

plow4beer said:


> FWIW, Our coldest month cost $60 to heat the 42x72x16 shop this winter...that was keeping it set @62 at all times. I thought that was pretty good.


The beer fridges probably cost more per month...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> FWIW, Our coldest month cost $60 to heat the 42x72x16 shop this winter...that was keeping it set @62 at all times. I thought that was pretty good.


that is rather impressive


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Western1 said:


> So not soo cool?


We had a slightly warmer than avg winter, but after seeing how it's done, I'm confident a colder than avg winter wouldn't effect the efficiency drastically...the coldest month this season, was probably what would be considered an avg month in the winter here..?..?....Typical trussed roof design btw.



Mark Oomkes said:


> The beer fridges probably cost more per month...


Definitely



Philbilly2 said:


> that is rather impressive


my plumber, as well as my hvac guy, thought so as well.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

plow4beer said:


> FWIW, Our coldest month cost $60 to heat the 42x72x16 shop this winter...that was keeping it set @62 at all times. I thought that was pretty good.


It proves that the best way to reduce overall hvac costs is insulation. Although it's nice to get an efficient furnace/heat pump, the best bang for the buck is almost always insulation.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It proves that the best way to reduce overall hvac costs is insulation. Although it's nice to get an efficient furnace/heat pump, the best bang for the buck is almost always insulation.


Not sure I could afford/justify more, or better, than i did in regards to both the equip & insulation..but yes, I agree. There's already some small details I wish I would've done (or done differently) with the new shop, but this is not one of them.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

plow4beer said:


> here's already some small details I wish I would've done (or done differently) with the new shop,


Walk in beer coolers???

Kegerator????


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It proves that the best way to reduce overall hvac costs is insulation. Although it's nice to get an efficient furnace/heat pump, the best bang for the buck is almost always insulation.


@plow4beer 
What is your insulation situation? 
Do you have water heater that is gas?

My building is similar in size (50x100x16) we keep shop @ 60 and the offices are typically 68ish. My highest bill this winter was $178. That includes the hot water to wash trucks though, and the modine that we use if we need to spike temp in the shop to melt trucks/ trailer quicker.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Walk in beer coolers???
> 
> Kegerator????


Yes



Philbilly2 said:


> @plow4beer
> What is your insulation situation?
> Do you have water heater that is gas?
> 
> My building is similar in size (50x100x16) we keep shop @ 60 and the offices are typically 68ish. My highest bill this winter was $178. That includes the hot water to wash trucks though, and the modine that we use if we need to spike temp in the shop to melt trucks/ trailer quicker.


Gas boiler, which also supplies HW for the sink, & a hose if needed...we haven't found a need to spike the temp, so I'm not even considering a modine at this point. No office space in this structure, other than an open loft/mezzanine that could be turned into one I guess, if someone wanted to..


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

plow4beer said:


> Agree, that's why I did 12in of cellulose in my ceiling for about $800...We put a heavy duty house wrap between the framing and metal on walls & roof ..then sprayed 3in of closed cell on the walls, then 4in R13 bat over that before putting on our final wall coverings. Basically I'm about R35"ish" everywhere, maybe more...Of course the floor (6.5in thick) has about 3.5in of foam underneath & 2in around the perimeter.)





Philbilly2 said:


> @plow4beer
> What is your insulation situation?.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I guess I missed it... sorry bout that.

What did the spray foam cost? It is astounding what it brings here...


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> I guess I missed it... sorry bout that.
> 
> What did the spray foam cost? It is astounding what it brings here...


Just over $9k...I couldn't even get close to that going the DYI route...Took 2 guys 2.5 days. Plus they left the man lift there for about 3 weeks after they finished, which came in very handy


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Phil forgot to add in the big beer fridge which is open a lot in his 178 figure!


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> @plow4beer
> What is your insulation situation?
> Do you have water heater that is gas?
> 
> My building is similar in size (50x100x16) we keep shop @ 60 and the offices are typically 68ish. My highest bill this winter was $178. That includes the hot water to wash trucks though, and the modine that we use if we need to spike temp in the shop to melt trucks/ trailer quicker.


OH Doors, man doors, & windows can play a part in this as well. Not sure what's in your building, but we have no windows other than what's in all three of the OH Doors (18wx14h has 5windows, and the 10x10 & 12x12 both have 3windows), then 3 36in man doors.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Western1 said:


> Phil forgot to add in the big beer fridge which is open a lot in his 178 figure!


I have 2 refrigerators in my shop soooo....


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

plow4beer said:


> OH Doors, man doors, & windows can play a part in this as well. Not sure what's in your building, but we have no windows other than what's in all three of the OH Doors (18wx14h has 5windows, and the 10x10 & 12x12 both have 3windows), then 3 36in man doors.


Yep. Even double paned windows are typically R 2 or so, so it doesn't take many to be a substantial heat loss/gain.

It sounds like it's not an issue for you, but if the man doors are opened a bunch, then air curtains rigged to a door switch can help a lot and are not that expensive. Air curtains for the overhead doors can be quite expensive.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It sounds like it's not an issue for you, but if the man doors are opened a bunch, then air curtains rigged to a door switch can help a lot and are not that expensive. Air curtains for the overhead doors can be quite expensive.


This is something I have considered, but as the winters gone on, even on the days doors (OH & man) were being opened multiple times, the heat loss is so much less with radiant (than with forced air), that I'm thinking its not worth it..?...I think it would take more activity than we get (in & out) in our shop to justify it...?..luckily this is one of those things that's easy to add later though


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

plow4beer said:


> This is something I have considered, but as the winters gone on, even on the days doors (OH & man) were being opened multiple times, the heat loss is so much less with radiant (than with forced air), that I'm thinking its not worth it..?...I think it would take more activity than we get (in & out) in our shop to justify it...?..luckily this is one of those things that's easy to add later though


We're way past off topic on this one, but if the indoor temperatures are the same, you will lose the same amount of heat when the doors are opened, regardless of the method of heating. Basically, you replace a certain amount of indoor air at XX degrees with cold outside air at YY degrees. The specific heat of air times the temperature difference is how much heat the system has to make up to restore the interior to its pre-door-opening condition.

A radiant floor system helps in a few ways.

FIrst and foremost, the warmer floor makes you feel warmer, sort of in the same way that sunshine does, so that with the air at 62, it may feel as warm as non-radiant at 68. This six degree difference reduces the overall heat loss through the walls to the outside air.

Secondly, the warmer floor creates a natural convection that moves the air so that you don't have warm air collect at the top.

Thirdly, when a door is opened and the air becomes colder, the temperature difference with the floor increases, and the rate of convection speeds up, reducing the recovery time. It therefore feels like you have lost less heat, but you haven't. You just have sucked heat out of the slab quickly.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Aerospace Eng said:


> We're way past off topic on this one, but if the indoor temperatures are the same, you will lose the same amount of heat when the doors are opened, regardless of the method of heating. Basically, you replace a certain amount of indoor air at XX degrees with cold outside air at YY degrees. The specific heat of air times the temperature difference is how much heat the system has to make up to restore the interior to its pre-door-opening condition.
> 
> A radiant floor system helps in a few ways.
> 
> ...


I didn't think that was way past off topic...still talking about in floor/radiant heat and the efficiency/benefits of them. Good info by the way thanks


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Aerospace Eng said:


> We're way past off topic on this one, but if the indoor temperatures are the same, you will lose the same amount of heat when the doors are opened, regardless of the method of heating. Basically, you replace a certain amount of indoor air at XX degrees with cold outside air at YY degrees. The specific heat of air times the temperature difference is how much heat the system has to make up to restore the interior to its pre-door-opening condition.
> 
> A radiant floor system helps in a few ways.
> 
> ...


So I guess the question for myself is - is the cost of air curtains + the energy used by them, enough to offset the heat loss & energy used to recover worth it? Based on how much the doors are opened on avg for us, I'm going to guess no at this point..?...but honestly, I haven't looked into it that far, because like I mentioned, it does "feel" like there's minimal heat loss/good recovery.

1 thing I did make provisions for, but have not got to installing yet, is an exhaust fan. Not that we would use/need it a lot, but there were times this winter where had to open 2 opposing wall OH doors to "clear the air". This took literally the time for both doors to open and shut at the same time...Again, how often this would really be needed for us (based on activities this winter) has made me think is it worth it..?...but the exhaust fan purchase/install is pretty inexpensive imo, and I'm still planning to do it.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Whats really way off topic is that I heat my shop with free oil ,well except electric cost for blowers and burner ! But I would love a radiant system, that looks like a great setup !


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

plow4beer said:


> I didn't think that was way past off topic...still talking about in floor/radiant heat and the efficiency/benefits of them. Good info by the way thanks


Considering the thread was started about an interesting way to mount a spreader in a pickup truck, I'll stand by my statement about being way off topic.



plow4beer said:


> So I guess the question for myself is - is the cost of air curtains + the energy used by them, enough to offset the heat loss & energy used to recover worth it? Based on how much the doors are opened on avg for us, I'm going to guess no at this point..?...but honestly, I haven't looked into it that far, because like I mentioned, it does "feel" like there's minimal heat loss/good recovery.
> 
> 1 thing I did make provisions for, but have not got to installing yet, is an exhaust fan. Not that we would use/need it a lot, but there were times this winter where had to open 2 opposing wall OH doors to "clear the air". This took literally the time for both doors to open and shut at the same time...Again, how often this would really be needed for us (based on activities this winter) has made me think is it worth it..?...but the exhaust fan purchase/install is pretty inexpensive imo, and I'm still planning to do it.


Given what you are spending in this mild winter, I'm not sure an air curtain would be worth it. Perhaps if you have one man door that is used 60%-70% of the time put one on that and ignore the others.

With respect to clearing the air, is it from Internal Combustion Engine Fumes?

Anytime you have an exhaust fan you start sucking outside air into the building through window and door seals. If your building is tight, this can make opening or closing doors difficult.

The recommended air changes per hour varies depending on what the occupancy is, and can easily be the majority of your heat load in a cold climate in the winter or hot climate in the summer. For most commercial office type buildings, the requirement is generally 4 or so, but I would figure it out per occupant for a large workshop. The data below closely follows the ASHRAE standards

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-change-rate-room-d_867.html

For applications where ventilation is necessary a heat recovery ventilator, which exhausts inside air over a heat exchanger with outside air being drawn in over the same heat exchanger can reduce your ventilation heat load a lot. If low humidity is a problem an Energy Recovery Ventilator, could be an option.

Here's a link to a site with a variety (I'm not endorsing the site or any brand or model)

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Heat-Energy-Recovery-Ventilator-18060000


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Considering the thread was started about an interesting way to mount a spreader in a pickup truck, I'll stand by my statement about being way off topic.
> 
> *Ok, I'll give you that..although "staying on topic" has kind of funny sound here at PS...but I have noticed ,since returning, the leash has been tightened on some of the highly active members here...and I can assure you mine is very short right now.*
> 
> ...


great info btw, thanks...I'm not in a rush to do anything, so I will take my time with this as we use the building more, and get a better feel of what is going to suit us best. As the warm season approaches, a lot of these issues are irrelevant, due to Mainly the fact we will be spending much less time in the shop, as well as having the ability to open up doors for air flow anyway.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> So I guess the question for myself is - is the cost of air curtains + the energy used by them, enough to offset the heat loss & energy used to recover worth it? Based on how much the doors are opened on avg for us, I'm going to guess no at this point..?...but honestly, I haven't looked into it that far, because like I mentioned, it does "feel" like there's minimal heat loss/good recovery.


if you are only spending $60 to heat a month, no is the answer.


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