# First 15+ Acre Bid



## Big Daddy (Dec 4, 2009)

We have an opportunity to bid on our first large property. We REALLY want this bid.. It is a bit daunting. We have handled many commercial lots and our largest has been at the 5 acre level. We physically measured the entire thing for peace of mind and accuracy. We drove the property to inspect areas for snow stacking etc. They simply wish to pay a flat hourly rate no seasonal, no per push or any other method. They have required an hourly bid price and 3 trucks can handle the task. No removal service is needed as there is plenty of space to put snow. All hourly rates are on the honor system as well as salt application. 

We have 2 rigs of our own and 2 subs to work with. We have 5 trucks between us. We do have access for a skidsteer if needed. 

We are adequately insured, licensed etc...We have crunched the numbers and are feeling ok about it, but of course wish there was a magic recipe to give us the winning number...Are we in over our head or not? Thanks in advance for any input... of course constructive help would be wonderful! We value good feedback and appreciate your help.

Wife of Big Daddy


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## salopez (Apr 11, 2004)

good luck with 15 acres and no loaders. 

they out push trucks when fitted with boxes, and there is always somewhere you need to stack snow.


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

I do agree that a loader is necessary on a lot of that size. I hope the trucks you are counting on are larger size trucks, and not just 1/2 or 3/4 ton pick-ups. The lenght of your pushes will be un godly hard on small trucks with any sizeable snowfall.


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## fci (Sep 7, 2008)

Do you know what equipment the contractor used last year? Did they do a good job with the equipment they had? Alot of property managers are up to date on snow removal and the equipment needed for their sites. They don't always go for the cheapest bid they want their sites cleared as fast and efficiently as possible. They may think that trucks only, will not be very efficient for a 15 acre lot. That being said I would include the skid loader with a push box and 1-2 backhoe's or loaders with push boxes if you don't know anyone that has equipment check with a rental co. or a construction co. they often have their loaders sitting until spring. And 2-3 Trucks Good luck


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## Big Daddy (Dec 4, 2009)

This is great feedback... I appreciate it.. truly!! The property manager indicated it was handled exclusively with 3 full-size trucks and plows last season. They did a "mediocre" job.. They said they did not use good common sense in pushing back the snow in areas where it was out of the way (Maybe why we would need a pusher perhaps???) . Honestly... there is multiple lots, multiple fire lanes (about 2 miles worth) and not a lot of areas where you are working on just one large parking lot. It is a huge complex/facility. However, there is a LOT of area to push snow back WAY out of the way... even with a substancial snowfall. We do not get many events that get more than 5-6" per event. More often than not, we average more 2-4" events. We also would be getting an hourly rate... Would this make sense to use larger equipment for being "quicker" than just having 3-4 trucks who will be basically allocated for this job? 

The trucks we use are 1 ton dually's with 9 foot blades... Diesel... But again, this is our first larger property of this magnitude. We really need to be fully cognizant of what we have to do to maintain it effectively.. We really want this job... It would be a great opportunity for us! Plus, it is very close to our home-base. Are we missing the mark and kidding ourselves?? 
Wife of Big Daddy


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Well you kind of said it......3 full sized truck did a inadequate job.


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## Big Daddy (Dec 4, 2009)

So what I am hearing is that you guys think we are crazy??? We can not do this without a pusher... at least??? Not even with 5 full time dedicated 1 ton dually's with 9 foot commercial blades and a skidsteer ... plus a salter? I hate feeling a little deflated... but hey.. we gotta start somewhere. 
We will be looking into a pusher perhaps..to check availability and costs and go for that... with the equipment we have. 
Yes.. Brian, I did say that, but in my honest opinion, just because they did a sub-par job, does not necessarily mean due to lack of equipment, it could very well been they simply underbid it and lost money or they had 3 scabs who don't care... see it a lot ... They also were not effective in knowing how/where to push the snow.... which suggests poor training and lack of knowledge.. which could attribute to their poor performance as well..or again, perhaps lack of equipment. I am not ruling that out at all... just taking all of it in.. Thanks!! 
Wife of Big Daddy


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

If you cant handle it I know someone that can with a pusher and a couple of trucks. If I get the job I can give you a finders fee for the property. It is an option.


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## Big Daddy (Dec 4, 2009)

Aaron, I sent you a PM... Thanks... I am exploring several options..
Wife of Big Daddy


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Big Daddy;1083703 said:


> So what I am hearing is that you guys think we are crazy??? We can not do this without a pusher... at least??? Not even with 5 full time dedicated 1 ton dually's with 9 foot commercial blades and a skidsteer ... plus a salter? I hate feeling a little deflated... but hey.. we gotta start somewhere.
> We will be looking into a pusher perhaps..to check availability and costs and go for that... with the equipment we have.
> Yes.. Brian, I did say that, but in my honest opinion, just because they did a sub-par job, does not necessarily mean due to lack of equipment, it could very well been they simply underbid it and lost money or they had 3 scabs who don't care... see it a lot ... They also were not effective in knowing how/where to push the snow.... which suggests poor training and lack of knowledge.. which could attribute to their poor performance as well..or again, perhaps lack of equipment. I am not ruling that out at all... just taking all of it in.. Thanks!!
> Wife of Big Daddy


I understand and I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I just think your not going to be able to push back that amount of snow when it builds up. Like you said, "we want feed back".


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## Big Daddy (Dec 4, 2009)

Brian..Absolutely.. i appreciate your comments..I do get what you are saying.. I agree.. it is a very real possibility... So, I guess from your experience it requires the pusher...??? Even though it is a "per hour" job??? Just curious.. I apprecate this feedback.. so sorry if my comment came across negatively. 
Wife of Big Daddy


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## gd8boltman (Dec 18, 2002)

*You may be able to do the work of the trucks*

by renting a loader of some type with a pusher and just use one of the pick-ups for a little clean up work. You could free those other trucks up for some additional work. Even though it's hourly you still will be expected to have some efficiency. Perhaps you could sell the client on the advantages of the loader over pickups and charge a little more.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Big Daddy;1083793 said:


> Brian..Absolutely.. i appreciate your comments..I do get what you are saying.. I agree.. it is a very real possibility... So, I guess from your experience it requires the pusher...??? Even though it is a "per hour" job??? Just curious.. I apprecate this feedback.. so sorry if my comment came across negatively.
> Wife of Big Daddy


Here is my reasoning, first off, I'm assuming you have more work lined up for your trucks, you don't want to put all your equipment in on one lot all night. A loader with a 12-14 push box is going to take the place of at least 2 trucks freeing them up to do other jobs. Plus, even around our sad hourly rate market a loader is worth at least two trucks so your not out and money so to speak. Just showing up with a loader of some type instills confidence in your customer's that your up to the challenge. Good luck.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

I'D VOTE LOADER TOO.........

At the very least a 4x4 Backhoe. I did a 14 acre lot with 3 trucks and a backhoe. It wasn't the right way to do it, but it got done without complaints. Get a 12 ft box on a backhoe or even better grab a loader and a bigger box.

Be careful renting equipment on a contract that's not seasonal, that rental could kill you if it's a light winter. Better to find a local excavator or someone else with a large enough machine and agree to a rate hourly. We have subs leave equipment on our sites, and when we plow they work. Bigger clients generally like to see a machine on their property, it's reassuring to them. Of course your sub can pull their machine if they have other workl for it but make sure they have it back BEFORE any event. Also be sure to include a non-compete for 3 years in your sub agreement, sometimes hard tio enforce but often if people sign, follow through on their word to not go after your work.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

OMG 3 trucks would do fine. (up until a blizzard, but everyone is screwed in a blizzard).

3 trucks, 4 to 5 hours total, I don't see the issue.
it's hourly so you can't overbid/underbid it so you won't get crushed.

I simply don't see the problem.

Back in the day (when it used to snow here in Denver, early 90's), I worked for a company that had 53 trucks (pickups, 1 single axle dump), did things all over metro denver. Up to 3' of snow in some storms in some areas (it's very inconsistent here in Denver) and everything got handled fine. From little lots to huge lots.

Even now, few places here use loaders, only big huge malls and even then there are lots of trucks.

You'll be fine.

I would add wings though, wings make a big difference over a straight blade.


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## CHCSnowman (Nov 11, 2006)

I agree with LoneCowboy. We do some large lots with no loaders.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

LoneCowboy;1083889 said:


> OMG 3 trucks would do fine. (up until a blizzard, but everyone is screwed in a blizzard).
> 
> 3 trucks, 4 to 5 hours total, I don't see the issue.
> it's hourly so you can't overbid/underbid it so you won't get crushed.
> ...


I agree....if this is your only account or 1 of a couple accounts you have and you don't need to pile the snow any higher than 5-6 feet.


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## bskiball (Sep 5, 2009)

Don't forget all the wear you will put on your trucks doing lots that big. I bought a loader a few year ago partly to save my trucks from so much abuse. Long heavy pushes wear trucks out. Just something to think about.


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

I would agree with getting a pusher if you can afford it / and be profitable. Not sure how many other accounts that you have and how using your current fleet will hinder your ability to complete your current accounts.
You say that you have done other lots in the 5 acre range , so it sounds like you have some experience. Look back at you records for the last xx years you have been plowing and think about how the heavier snows impacted getting your accounts done. If the numbers aren't there and your abilty to service your current accounts won't be effected then use your current trucks and take the job. Not sure if I missed it but what about salt. You will possibly need alot of it, can you buy bulk and do you have a place to store it. Good luck


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## Big Daddy (Dec 4, 2009)

Guys.. this has been invaluable feedback. I appreciate it.. We are taking it all in... and going to try to go after this one. We really want this account... 

Your help and advice has been so beneficial... thank you! I appreciate it so much.

Wife of Big Daddy 
(Wish us luck) .. God Bless!


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

I'd have to see a site map, but odds are if it's really that big and the manager is claiming they didn't push back fare enough.....they did push it back, then it froze, the next snow was a few more feet towards the drive lane...as the month goes on the process repeats, and soon the original snow fall has melted and your piles are 10 feet from the curb lines, they can't be moved because they are frozen. Of course this kind of though process isn't in the property managers mind, they just wonder why your miles from the curb line with piles.

I learned this lesson a few years ago 12 acre site, with trucks and 1 skidder, I admit I was wrong, and while we did the best we could, the lot looked pretty good, our piles looked bad, and had to be restacked.

5 acre sites rant bad with a truck, but 10 plus acres, almost for sure... The first snow fall, the first 10 mins and 10 passes, at 4 am, and you will stop and wonder what you just did, and if you will ever get it done 


I'd vote loader.


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## PLOWTRUCK (Sep 25, 2010)

If you have good snow plow drivers and this is your only lot you should be ok with the equipment you have. If you do get a large storm you had better start plowing early. I would recommend a 4x4 backhoe to supplement your trucks if you have other accounts you dont want to give up.


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## asps4u (Sep 16, 2009)

If you're for sure going to use the trucks, why not add 16 ft. back blades? Trucks were designed and built to pull and if you add at least two 16 ft back blades you'll increase those truck's productivity substantially, while not being so hard on your equipment. Just a thought...


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## mikegooseman (Dec 28, 2009)

I think you can see the direction of all the feed back....and its all true ! and even with the skidsteer, you still need more iron, loader, backhoe or even an Ag tractor you will need for sure, anything over 6 inches of the wet stuff, and you have just created a BIG problem for yourself....time frame to complete the project pick-ups will die in there, etc....However, if its in the budget, buy one of the big 3 pieces I mentioned.....before you consider just getting a finders fee out of it ! that you will only get ONCE... think of how many years you can keep the project, and at what percentage of a profit margine , example- you buy a backhoe over 5 years lets say, after that 5 year term that iron CAN be paid for , you have a repeat customer, and finally that hoe can work 12 months a year ! and it can plow lots of snow....just my opinion, GOOD LUCK !


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## Big Daddy (Dec 4, 2009)

AWESOME Feedback... I appreciate the invaluable info... We are taking this in strides... We want this contract very bad. I think we can handle it... it is just a matter of being smart, focusing our energies appropriately and being prepared with a backup plan and a backup plan for the backup.... so to speak. I think you guys have given us a great deal to consider. It is definitely going to help us determine how we handle this if we land this bid. We should know something this week. Keeping our fingers crossed, saying prayer and hoping that it works in the way it should. 
Wife to Big Daddy


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## d4c50 (Oct 26, 2008)

I haven't seen anything about what time of day that the lot has to be cleared by? If you have no time restraints to have the lot cleared by a certain hour I would think you would be ok with the trucks,But as others have said I would want to have a loader on hand if needed. You may want to talk to a dirt contractor to sub the loader work to your 1st year to see how things will go before going in debt for one. Most dirt guys don't have much going on in the winter and would welcome the income. As far as a box on the loader just remember the owners want to pay you by the hour. Are they willing to pay extra for the box over just using the loader. Sounds like a good job if the per hour rate is up there and the time restraints will work for you. Good Luck
d4c50


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## nicksplowing (Oct 5, 2005)

3 trucks with 9' blades will handle pushing that size lot, i do agree with whoever said about adding the wings, but i would definitely be sure to have a loader of some type at your disposal whether it be 4x4 backhoe or wheel loader to stack snow in the event you did get a substantial snowfall best of luck to you :salute:


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## Kollen Parsons (Oct 21, 2010)

Eggs in a basket! Are they all in this basket?

That's a recipe for crepes, pancake batter, omlettes etc. The problem is that someone else may get to reap your rewards if something happens!

:>)


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## straightlinelan (Mar 9, 2008)

Since we are talking loaders/skidsteers i have a question. i have been crunching the numbers for years and it dont make sense. Skidsteers on a snow lease in my area are going for $1500.00/month for 5 payments per year ($7500.00 annually). Payroll for driver $25.00 x 8 = $200.00 x 12/14 plowings = $2,400 - $2,800.00 per season. Fuel $630.00 per season
.
Loader $7,500.00
labor $2,800.00
fuel $ 630.00
total cost $10,930.00 per season 

Typical hourly rate for skidsteer is $105.00/hr. Assume 8hrs of plowing per event x $105.00 = $840.00 x 12 - 14 plowings per season = $10,080 - 11,760.00 per year

There for it just seems like i am breaking even...are my numbers right?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

straightlinelan;1097743 said:


> Since we are talking loaders/skidsteers i have a question. i have been crunching the numbers for years and it dont make sense. Skidsteers on a snow lease in my area are going for $1500.00/month for 5 payments per year ($7500.00 annually). Payroll for driver $25.00 x 8 = $200.00 x 12/14 plowings = $2,400 - $2,800.00 per season. Fuel $630.00 per season
> .
> Loader $7,500.00
> labor $2,800.00
> ...


105 for a skid steer? that would be nice! Around here your lucky to get 65/hr. As far as your question, I to did the number's and I guess the difference is if you want to reinvest in your company and build capital and assets. When I crunched the number's for our loader we just bought it was a very easy decision, rent one for 3k a month x5 months or buy one for 22k.

The question I want to know is did they get it????


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

straightlinelan;1097743 said:


> Since we are talking loaders/skidsteers i have a question. i have been crunching the numbers for years and it dont make sense. Skidsteers on a snow lease in my area are going for $1500.00/month for 5 payments per year ($7500.00 annually). Payroll for driver $25.00 x 8 = $200.00 x 12/14 plowings = $2,400 - $2,800.00 per season. Fuel $630.00 per season
> .
> Loader $7,500.00
> labor $2,800.00
> ...


Your example is why hourly work isn't worth it... How about bidding and lining up $15-20K in work for the winter for that loader. (shoveling & salting not included)
If your cost is in the $10k range, then in a typical business model, that one machine bringing in double isn't so bad. Now multiply that by many trucks, loaders & shovelers and you can see why big companies can bid on smaller margins. Economy of scale. 
Why do you think in a high snow year guys like (neige) probably clear residential drives cheaper than anyone else.


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## Big Daddy (Dec 4, 2009)

Well, just thought I would update... We did NOT get the bid... We lost by $5/hour ... to the guy who gave them the same crappy service they had last year. In conclusion... it is fine.. Upset to not have gotten the opportunity.. but we will be better educated to pursue it again next season... as we will have to revamp our approach...Sad to see that these companies are looking at only numbers this season. We have heard more ... You were just $5 higher than the other guy... or You were just a little higher than I wanted to spend... And for someone is so close-minded to look at only an hourly rate picture (the client only wanted that), then we are better to just walk away... 
Good news.. we have retained all our bids from last season... and gained a new commercial client who we are excited about.. .and so, we can keep positioning ourselves to go after this one next time!! Thanks for all your help on this guys... It means a lot.. Sorry it was not the outcome we wanted, but we are not devasted either. It is the nature of the beast.

Wife of Big Daddy


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## MidLandscaping (Oct 8, 2007)

When we are submitting quotes on large snow removal jobs (malls, shopping centers, etc.) we ensure we obtain the customers snow removal specifications (when does lot need cleared, where can snow be stored, what obstructions can we block, etc.). Once we obtain this information, we will begin our game plan. Their specifications will dictate what direction we will take as far as: what type of equipment we will need, quantity of equipment, number of drivers, shovelers, etc. Yes, someone maybe plowing a 15 acre parking lot. This can be achieved in 2 hours up to 20 hours or more. It all depends on the clients specifications, how well you execute your game plan and your quality of work.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

This is just a sugestion. Your probably allready getting beat up & their getting scamed, your probably putting your 9' blade & dually, quoted against a 8' blade & pickup. See if you can get an "idea" of what there paying per push (how many hours), do it for that price, then add wings to your truck. For $ 200 a set you'll quickly make up that $ 5/hr. You'll find you will be at least 20% more effeicient. The large site @ 15 acres shold be about 15 hrs depending on layouts. If you can convert it to per-trip or seasonal that is truly where the push box & equipment will shine. Once they see you do it one season with a loader after being done with P/U's, they don't leave you from my experience. And the calls from your guys laughing because they just blasted a 1 acre lot out in 15 min & the guy plowing the lot next door is still in the small front lot (10 k ft) are priceless.


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

I hate accounts like that. "We aren't happy with the current guy... He charges this much..."

Then when I submit the bid.... "Your more expensive, so we are just going to stick with who we have...."

Happens all the time to me. I haven't figured it out yet.


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