# Sub contracting residential?



## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Hey guys, Sorry I've been making so many threads lately but I have a serious question here. So a fellow contractor pulled me over to talk to me today and he's wondering if I could sub a few driveways for him. I don't know how much he's paying or exactly the number of driveways but I'm wondering if subbing resi is even worth the time. It would also really help on route density. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Nick


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## xgiovannix12 (Dec 8, 2012)

I would do it if the accounts were close to my route for the right price.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Without knowing the pay and the number of drives, there proximity and your operating cost 
We or you wouldn't know if it is profitable or not


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

First i would consiDer whether they are in your area where your do work already
then go look at them and price it at what you would if you were dealing directly with the owner. That way you are still profiting as normal. Then decode whether or not it's gonna be more of a pain than anything


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

How I got more into snow, was doing one of my handfull of places I had, when another contractor asked me if I wanted to do a few places of his, we agreed on price and almost a decade later I'm still doing a few of his places, been a great relationship.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

I don't know the exact properties but I know that they're all in my route/area and I can choose the ones I want. Sounds like he's overwhelmed and just wants to get rid of some of them. I would think it will be easier to collect one check from him than multiple payents from customers so I don't think it'll be much more of a hassle.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Nick what is important to know is he a direct competitor doing residential snow, or does he do lots of commercial and these clients are the owners of the commercial places he does. If he is a direct competitor and he has taken on too much, it may be better to let him to continue to service his own clients with difficulty and chances are you may pick up some of them yourself in the future.
If he is not a direct competitor then by all means if you can handle the extra clients in your service area make the extra cash. Taking on new clients in an area you already service can be very beneficial giving you not only better route density but also greater exposure to new clients. If asked I would not sign a non compete clause, you do not want to put yourself in a position where you cannot go after clients, in your service area.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Neige;1930487 said:


> Nick what is important to know is he a direct competitor doing residential snow, or does he do lots of commercial and these clients are the owners of the commercial places he does. If he is a direct competitor and he has taken on too much, it may be better to let him to continue to service his own clients with difficulty and chances are you may pick up some of them yourself in the future.
> If he is not a direct competitor then by all means if you can handle the extra clients in your service area make the extra cash. Taking on new clients in an area you already service can be very beneficial giving you not only better route density but also greater exposure to new clients. If asked I would not sign a non compete clause, you do not want to put yourself in a position where you cannot go after clients, in your service area.


 Yes. We talked about this last night that if we do them this year there is a good chance that we'll pick those customers up our selves next year. We're not in real need of anymore work and definetly won't be signing any none compete contracts by I think I could handle a few more. I think he is a direct competitor though. He has 64 customers he does with a smaller tractor than ours and says he doesn't want them all. I know that the long term plan is definetly not sub contracting but this could be away to maybe get some more customers/route density for next year. So are you saying definetly don't work with a direct competitor because I think he only does residential? I've never worked with another contractor so I wouldn't know. If you think it's the wrong move I won't do it because We definetly aren't short on customers right now. By the way did you get my email? I sent you a link to a video and some addresses. Thanks a lot, Nick


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Or he could have you sign a noncompete claus, most contractors will have their subs signed one.
Then you can't go after them or take them on if they call you.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Nick go with your gut on this one. I have done exchanges in the past with direct competitors, and it worked out well for us. Here is one example that at first was not so good. This one guy did both snow and lawn, he called and asked if we could do 8 clients in an area where he did not service but had clients signed year round. We agreed and it worked out well. The next year he advertised he was doing snow in this area at lower prices than ours. He managed to get 7 more clients for a total of 15, far less then what he expected. He called us up again and asked if we could do these 15 clients. We refused on the bases that he was actively going after our clients. Well several storms later, he called back and offered all his clients in this area with an agreement to no longer solicit clients in this area. He paid us our price in full and now they all sign contracts with us directly. Hope this helps
Yes I got the email, just have not had time to respond.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

SnoFarmer;1930535 said:


> Or he could have you sign a noncompete claus, most contractors will have their subs signed one.
> Then you can't go after them or take them on if they call you.


 Oh Ok. I will forsure not do it if he wants a non compete agreement. Not going to get myself into that mess especially in the area that I'm trying to push the competition out of and take over.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Neige;1930543 said:


> Nick go with your gut on this one. I have done exchanges in the past with direct competitors, and it worked out well for us. Here is one example that at first was not so good. This one guy did both snow and lawn, he called and asked if we could do 8 clients in an area where he did not service but had clients signed year round. We agreed and it worked out well. The next year he advertised he was doing snow in this area at lower prices than ours. He managed to get 7 more clients for a total of 15, far less then what he expected. He called us up again and asked if we could do these 15 clients. We refused on the bases that he was actively going after our clients. Well several storms later, he called back and offered all his clients in this area with an agreement to no longer solicit clients in this area. He paid us our price in full and now they all sign contracts with us directly. Hope this helps
> Yes I got the email, just have not had time to respond.


We're going to really have to think about this one. He wants to meet up and talk next week. I will only consider it if there is no non compete agreement, We're comfortable with the price, and we only have to take on ones that are right in our area. Going to be a tough decision but we'll see. Like You said it's more of a way to get the name out there and possibly pick up a few more for next year than anything. I know we don't want to have a middle man forever but it could be a starting point. I'll let you know what happens. Take your time on that email I just didn't know if you got it or not.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

1) We make more (hourly) on our residential routes than we do on anything else. Because its done, move to the next, done, move to the next.....

2) As a company we do not subcontract anything anymore. From others or to others. We have found it to be nothing but problems.

3) Subcontracting is one word.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Even if he wants one, sign it. 

15 years olds can't be held to it, 




Well maybe in Canada.....


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

No non compete and accounts you can cherry pick in your area.....I'd do it as long as the pay was right


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

why not try it for a month?...if it works then someday you may need a hand because of unfore seen reason and he would most likely help


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

leolkfrm;1930921 said:


> why not try it for a month?...if it works then someday you may need a hand because of unfore seen reason and he would most likely help


Good idea I'll talk to him about that.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Alright final question are subcontractors usually paid by the hour or by the job? If he wants to go hourly I would need at least $125/hr which sounds like a big number.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

1olddogtwo;1930796 said:


> Even if he wants one, sign it.
> 
> 15 years olds can't be held to it,
> 
> Well maybe in Canada.....


 Haha not gonna pull that on him. I doubt he wants one signed anyways, I think he could care less if I took some of his customers.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

NickSnow&Mow;1930935 said:


> Alright final question are subcontractors usually paid by the hour or by the job? If he wants to go hourly I would need at least $125/hr which sounds like a big number.


Did I just read that? $125 an hour for 3 trucks I hope? Or biggest loader and snow pusher on the face of the planet?


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

lawnlandscape;1930951 said:


> Did I just read that? $125 an hour for 3 trucks I hope? Or biggest loader and snow pusher on the face of the planet?


No one 30hp tractor. It's not that crazy a number if you actually think about it. It takes me 2.5 mins to do a $20 driveway


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

You should just concentrate on your own accounts, and building your own customer base.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

125/hr is not unreasonable to aim for.Can't ask that for hrly price, but thats why you price it per job so pricing equals what you want to get.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

BC Handyman;1930974 said:


> 125/hr is not unreasonable to aim for.Can't ask that for hrly price, but thats why you price it per job so pricing equals what you want to get.


I completely agree with this statement....

However, he was going to ask for $125.00 an hour. lol

This is the way to get to your $125.00. Price per job. Otherwise your efficiency is punished. Because no ones going to agree to $125.00 an hour... I sure wouldn't.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

I agree. I was trying to make my point that per job will be much easier. I worked It out and I'm making $150 off of my own customers. That's were the price comes from.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Even at $80 an hour your making crazy money, literally no expenses... $125 sounds a bit greedy for a 35hp compact tractor, everyone has to make money or it doesn't make sense for him or you


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Triple L;1931181 said:


> Even at $80 an hour your making crazy money, literally no expenses... $125 sounds a bit greedy for a 35hp compact tractor, everyone has to make money or it doesn't make sense for him or you


yeah that's the problem it's a huge number. The thing is even if I make $20 per driveway and he gets $10 or $15 I'm averaging $150 per hour. I'd much rather go per job than driveway because of that


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Why wouldn't he have expenses. if he is "working",
he needs his own insurance.
The tractor is an expense, as is fuel, servicing and so is the operator. Even trailering it is an expense.

A sub-contractor, is a stand alone contractor.
with all the associated costs of a contractor as that is what you are.

He is exposed to liability as he is not an employee.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

SnoFarmer;1931260 said:


> Why wouldn't he have expenses. if he is "working",
> he needs his own insurance.
> The tractor is an expense, as is fuel, servicing and so is the operator. Even trailering it is an expense.
> 
> ...


Yes I do have insurance, fuel, and a little bit of equipment costs but I dont need to trailer it and im a one man show (with some occasional help) so no real employees.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

$125 is not a big number .

As most guys on here have a number that is very close to that.


cool,your going legit, as some state you dont have the costs to justify your rate, but you do.

I shoot for $100 an hr but at times it falls to $70.
but i dont get paid by the hr. i bid the job knowing about how long it will take then bid accordingly


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

SnoFarmer;1931260 said:


> Why wouldn't he have expenses. if he is "working",
> he needs his own insurance.
> The tractor is an expense, as is fuel, servicing and so is the operator. Even trailering it is an expense.
> 
> ...


He's 14!

He has $5 an hour in fuel expense and a bit of insurance... no shop, no trucks, no employees, very little maintenance and repairs... At $150 an hour he's putting atleast $125 of it in the bank

Most guys will operate $150,000 loaders for that let alone a 25k 33hp tractor


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

so what if he 14, I don't always get it, but I aim for $250/hr with my pickup


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

With the right snow blower, doing the city sidewalk in front of homes or business
Should Easley get you $100 a hr almost any place.

Regardless of age.


So, a 25yr old should get more operating the same snow blower?
Why , as the machine does the bulk of the work.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

I somewhat agree with triple L that 80% would go right towards the zero turn fund, but at the same time why is it so crazy to ask that when I make more than that already with per time payments? Also there's mo way I'd be doing more than an hour per snow fall because I'm not going to take on more than 7 or 8 driveways. $125 bucks a snow and he doesn't have to worry about a whole section of town sounds like a pretty decent deal to me. I could be all wrong and greedier than Kevin O'leary but I'm with Sno farmer.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I would charge him per drive way. Don't work hourly. What happens when you get drive ways next to his and now your going to start and stop a stop watch or something? Let him make 5 bucks a drive off you and that's it. He needs help, you don't need him.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Don't let him sucker you into something because your a kid.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

newhere;1931687 said:


> I would charge him per drive way. Don't work hourly. What happens when you get drive ways next to his and now your going to start and stop a stop watch or something? Let him make 5 bucks a drive off you and that's it. He needs help, you don't need him.


 I 100% agree. We're just discussing this in case he will only go hourly.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Of coarse he will want you to go hourly for 50-60 a hour then he will want 10 drives done a hour he's billing 400 bucks for. You tell him NO. Not doing it like that. 

You tell him you expect a check within 12 hours of storms completion also. If he doesn't pay then your out 1 storm but don't do it again. At least type something up on your computer that lists out what your doing and how much. Have him sign and date it and you sign and date it. 

Then once you know where these drives are you knock on all the houses around and try to get at least 5-10 more. Now your making money.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Just tell him your business plan and rate, " this is what I want per drive" seasonal, per time,doesn't matter.
If he wants to save time on his route he'll be happy to know what you need so he can charge accordingly. What he charges them is really none of your business. Run like a professional, be courteous and no to non compete, non solicitation " I'll keep your customers happy you keep me happy..." For what it's worth at 14,I don't think strong arming will get you anywhere. In politeness and hard work we trust... jMO


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## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

Dont think he is dealing with a "real" contractor here. I mean in all honesty (with no disrespect to the OP) what legitimate contractor would be looking to sub work out to a 14 year old???


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Mr.Markus;1931715 said:


> For what it's worth at 14,I don't think strong arming will get you anywhere. In politeness and hard work we trust... jMO


JMO too but I totally agree and it's what I've been saying all along, too many kids these days have the attitude they're worth soo much money... I'm not saying he isn't I'm just saying don't get greedy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with sub work, one hand washes the other


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

He is a known landscaper that mows for Tim hortons and other business's around. He told me he doesn't like some of the sketchy contractors around with rusty trucks. He also said other contractors don't want to shovel anything. He also likes my tractor/set up because he has basically the same rig just a little bit smaller and older. What makes a 25 year old a better operator than a 14 year old?


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Triple L;1931757 said:


> JMO too but I totally agree and it's what I've been saying all along, too many kids these days have the attitude they're worth soo much money... I'm not saying he isn't I'm just saying don't get greedy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with sub work, one hand washes the other


Not trying to say I'm worth that much sorry if it comes across that way, not trying to sound cocky. I should be making $10-15 an hour like everyone else my age, It's not that hard to drive a tractor and shovel some walkways. What I'm saying is if I can make $150 an hour charging per driveway then why can't I get $100-$125 from someone else!!? You know the cost of doing business better than I do.


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## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

Like I said prior I just cant wrap my head around the idea that a legit contractor would even consider subbing work to a 14y/o.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

If they can make money I know some contractors who would sub to a monkey...

At 2.5 min per $20 drive you should be striving for $480/ hr. Then why work for less...


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

NPMinc;1931786 said:


> Like I said prior I just cant wrap my head around the idea that a legit contractor would even consider subbing work to a 14y/o.


 Because he started young too and wants to help the young guys? I completely understand what you're saying but at the same time why not? I'm not operating a huge loader here it's a johndeere compact tractor and a Honda snowblower for walkways. Alright clearly I'm asking for way too much, it was just the number I'm usually getting. I'll just tell him my rates and see if it works out. Again not trying to overprice myself but I'm gonna charge as much as possible.


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## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

Not trying to bash ya in any way in fact I applaud your work ethic and goals, BUT, I as a business owner would never sub work to a minor especially a 14 y/o. Nor as a homeowner would I hire or allow a minor to work on my property unsupervised especially using a large piece of equipment. Just too many issues with liability, legality of contracts etc as well as the Idea of having a kid representing my business which you would be doing as they are his contracts. This Is well beyond some neighborhood kid mowing the neighbors lawns or shoveling thier drives.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

NickSnow&Mow;1931764 said:


> Not trying to say I'm worth that much sorry if it comes across that way, not trying to sound cocky. I should be making $10-15 an hour like everyone else my age, It's not that hard to drive a tractor and shovel some walkways. What I'm saying is if I can make $150 an hour charging per driveway then why can't I get $100-$125 from someone else!!? You know the cost of doing business better than I do.


Don't pigeon hole yourself into a lower rate. Honestly kid, I like your work ethic and your drive to succeed. Go get every single penny you can get. Don't short change yourself because you're young. Who cares what a bunch of idiots on the Internet say? Hell half the idiots on this site can't spell so it's beyond me how they can write a contract let alone run a legit business. If you want $125/hour then tell that guy your price. Like someone else said, he needs you not the other way around


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

NickSnow&Mow;1931764 said:


> Not trying to say I'm worth that much sorry if it comes across that way, not trying to sound cocky. I should be making $10-15 an hour like everyone else my age, It's not that hard to drive a tractor and shovel some walkways. What I'm saying is if I can make $150 an hour charging per driveway then why can't I get $100-$125 from someone else!!? You know the cost of doing business better than I do.


Just an FYI - there are not that many 14 year olds making $15.00 bucks an hour considering that minimum wage is below $10.00. I have a full time employee that I pay 25k for the year and he is 21 and happy to have the job.

Chuck B.


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## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

So peteo are you saying you would enter into contract with a 14 y/o and have him alone do work that was contracted under your business? I too think the kids ambition is admirable, BUT there is no way a 14yo's operation can be viewed professionally as a serious legitimate business!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

peteo1;1931952 said:


> Don't pigeon hole yourself into a lower rate. Honestly kid, I like your work ethic and your drive to succeed. Go get every single penny you can get. Don't short change yourself because you're young. Who cares what a bunch of idiots on the Internet say? Hell half the idiots on this site can't spell so it's beyond me how they can write a contract let alone run a legit business. If you want $125/hour then tell that guy your price. Like someone else said, he needs you not the other way around


:laughing: Thats prety funy!


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## gasjr4wd (Feb 14, 2010)

peteo1;1931952 said:


> Don't pigeon hole yourself into a lower rate. Honestly kid, I like your work ethic and your drive to succeed. Go get every single penny you can get. Don't short change yourself because you're young. Who cares what a bunch of idiots on the Internet say? Hell half the idiots on this site can't spell so it's beyond me how they can write a contract let alone run a legit business. If you want $125/hour then tell that guy your price. Like someone else said, he needs you not the other way around


I second this as one of the funniest things I've read. Totally true.
Get what you can get when you can get it. There is no starting point as to when you start making real money. I started in printing at age 8 running things that osha would crap themselves over. At age 18 I had two full time jobs at the same time.
Start the money high. You can come down but it's hard to go up.
Price per drive, NOT per hour.
Just don't do what I did and spend all that money on a female. 
It's great to get advice from others but then you must make your own decision.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Alright I guess I just won't go hourly because my prices are too high.........I'll just charge him more an hour by doing it per driveway. And yes you're right I probably wouldn't even hire myself but who cares!? Like triple l said $125 an hour is crazy overpriced for my age but if I can get it with my own customers why not with this guy that needs my help? I'm not going to rip him off and he's of course going to get his piece. Even if I only do 7 and it takes me an hour 7x30 = $210. That's $100 for me and $100 for him every snow for basically doing nothing. Like you guys said I'll just do it by the house to stop confusion and sounding like an idiot.


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## gasjr4wd (Feb 14, 2010)

It's not that your price is too high per hour, but we all have worked for a hourly rate and have been in situations that you don't want to get into. Price per job. If you can do them quickly and make $500/hour, go for it. If it takes you longer to do each one and you end up making $50/hour, it's up to you. He can't say much.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

gasjr4wd;1932003 said:


> It's not that your price is too high per hour, but we all have worked for a hourly rate and have been in situations that you don't want to get into. Price per job. If you can do them quickly and make $500/hour, go for it. If it takes you longer to do each one and you end up making $50/hour, it's up to you. He can't say much.


 Yeah, I think the point that some of you guys aren't getting is that it most likely is only gonna take 45 minutes to do all of them. I completely agree with your worries about hiring someone too young, I probably wouldn't but I'm not going to say no because of that.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

NPMinc;1931964 said:


> So peteo are you saying you would enter into contract with a 14 y/o and have him alone do work that was contracted under your business? I too think the kids ambition is admirable, BUT there is no way a 14yo's operation can be viewed professionally as a serious legitimate business!


Agreed, I wouldn't


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

I talked to him once, he might not even know my Age yet. I'll obviously tell him but he might not even do it because of that, who knows? No point arguing about it forever and I see your point. I'll let you know what happens when I talk to him this week.


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## gasjr4wd (Feb 14, 2010)

NickSnow&Mow;1932005 said:


> Yeah, I think the point that some of you guys aren't getting is that it most likely is only gonna take 45 minutes to do all of them. I completely agree with your worries about hiring someone too young, I probably wouldn't but I'm not going to say no because of that.


OK, so if you follow some of the advice here and make say, $25/hour and you do 10 drives, you are at something like $2 for each one?
In 5 years when you have a $6500 plow hanging off a $50,000 truck with a $3000 spreader, business license, insurance, etc and it takes you 30 minutes to do the same 10 drives, how much are you going to charge? Say you want to make $100/hour. Are you charging $5 a drive when everyone else is charging $75/drive?
I totally understand the under age thing... not sure what the age is in your area for a work permit, even if someone would hire you... oh wait, someone IS looking to hire you. And I bet he isn't the only one. When people see someone your age looking to make something of themselves and make some money, they may hire you over someone my age. If I can get $75/drive and pay you $2 or $5 to do it, as someone else said, you are my new monkey. I might even hold your thermos of hot chocolate while I sit in my truck and watch as I make $700.
Actually thinking back, we did have a kid working for us at a jet shop we called "monkey boy". You don't want that.
What ever you want per drive is what you want. Say it's $30(?). It's your equipment, your time, your fuel, your back. Shoot for the $30 (or whatever it is). The worst he will say is no. I bet he will counter offer. Then starts the business dealing. When you two come up with something fair that you both can agree on, he will respect you more if you stood your ground.
This is the time when you learn, grasshopper. Thumbs Up


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Nick stick to your business plan.
1)	This guy approached you to help him out. He is the one who took on too much, in too large an area. It is his reputation that is suffering, and his clients are not being serviced properly compared to yours.
2)	Efficiency when it comes to your business model is where you make the money. This efficiency does not come cheap, you invested in a tractor, blower and plow set up. Just because you have low overhead does not mean you need to lower your pricing. You are in the best situation, you did not start off low, so if the times comes where you may need to lower your pricing you have room to go down, but until then why would you. Time and time again I see people in our industry find ways to increase productivity and then use that to lower their price. 
3)	If your business plan is per push or seasonal, why add another element and go hourly? Stick to what you know and what works for you.
4)	Who is too say $125/hr is too much. I would not advertise that is how much you are making, keep those cards very close to your chest. 
5)	Do not let your age determine what you charge. Let you service level, equipment, expenses, and the market pricing help you decide what to charge. (Heck you are working without a cab, that alone is worth more money hourly.) What I admire most is that instead of charging far less which you could afford to do, you stuck closer to market pricing.

Lastly for those you would not sub to Nick because of his age I find that interesting. He has the proper equipment, he has insurance, he has great work ethic, and he has a legit business. It may just be a Canadian thing, I am not more liable hiring Nick’s company then that of a 30 year olds company. The only thing should something happen, is people could question my judgement. From what I have seen, I would go with Nick 9 out of 10 times.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Neige;1932051 said:


> Nick stick to your business plan.
> 1)	This guy approached you to help him out. He is the one who took on too much, in too large an area. It is his reputation that is suffering, and his clients are not being serviced properly compared to yours.
> 2)	Efficiency when it comes to your business model is where you make the money. This efficiency does not come cheap, you invested in a tractor, blower and plow set up. Just because you have low overhead does not mean you need to lower your pricing. You are in the best situation, you did not start off low, so if the times comes where you may need to lower your pricing you have room to go down, but until then why would you. Time and time again I see people in our industry find ways to increase productivity and then use that to lower their price.
> 3)	If your business plan is per push or seasonal, why add another element and go hourly? Stick to what you know and what works for you.
> ...


 Thanks Paul means a lot, You're right I'm not going to do hourly. I'll just tell him my prices when I talk to him and he can take or leave it. Like you said I don't need the work he needs the help, he clearly told me he can't find any decent employees so I shouldn't drop my prices just because I'm a bit young. I'll let you know what happens. Thanks


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

snoworks1;1931956 said:


> Just an FYI - there are not that many 14 year olds making $15.00 bucks an hour considering that minimum wage is below $10.00. I have a full time employee that I pay 25k for the year and he is 21 and happy to have the job.
> 
> Chuck B.


Min wage in Ontario is $11 and change. When I was 18 I took a labour job cutting grass and plowing snow for a local landscaper at $14/hr, he didn't limit my hours and whenever he offered extra work I took it. Without a raise in my hourly I made $45K that year.

One of the biggest problems I can see Nick having is that he is on the road with a tractor at 14. 2 years before he is allowed to go get his licence, there are some exceptions made for agriculture but a cop having a bad day can sideline his service.


----------



## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

Ok someone mentioned he is insured, I didnt know it was possible for a 14 yo to get liability insurance at least not in his name and if its in his parents name is the insurance company aware that the only employee performing the work is a 14yo minor? I dont know how it works north of the border but I know where im at there are child labor laws regarding hours worked, type of equipment used etc, and if the "business" is under his parents they could be in violation of these laws. Also as someone mentioned the legality of him operating the tractor on roadways could be an issue. The scope of his work also most likely wouldnt fall under any agricultural excemptions as it is a for profit snow removal operation. Still gonna stick by what I said that I wouldnt sub work to a minor nor allow one to work on my property unsupervised. ALSO TO THE OP: MAKE SURE THE GUY KNOWS YOUR AGE BEFORE YOU GO ANY FARTHER AS HE MAY CHANGE HIS MIND ABOUT HIRING YOU AS A SUB AND I WOULD HATE TO SEE IT CAUSE PROBLEMS FOR YA LATER


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

NPMinc;1932233 said:


> Ok someone mentioned he is insured, I didnt know it was possible for a 14 yo to get liability insurance at least not in his name and if its in his parents name is the insurance company aware that the only employee performing the work is a 14yo minor? I dont know how it works north of the border but I know where im at there are child labor laws regarding hours worked, type of equipment used etc, and if the "business" is under his parents they could be in violation of these laws. Also as someone mentioned the legality of him operating the tractor on roadways could be an issue. The scope of his work also most likely wouldnt fall under any agricultural excemptions as it is a for profit snow removal operation. Still gonna stick by what I said that I wouldnt sub work to a minor nor allow one to work on my property unsupervised. ALSO TO THE OP: MAKE SURE THE GUY KNOWS YOUR AGE BEFORE YOU GO ANY FARTHER AS HE MAY CHANGE HIS MIND ABOUT HIRING YOU AS A SUB AND I WOULD HATE TO SEE IT CAUSE PROBLEMS FOR YA LATER


 Yes I will tell him. I think ive said too much on this site lol.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

NickSnow&Mow;1932332 said:


> Yes I will tell him. I think ive said too much on this site lol.


Story of my life...LOL


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Seriously though, I think all of us wish you the best of luck and it's really admirable seeing you out there actually doing something when no other kids your age or older have any drive or interest in working in general!!! Let us know what happens either way and keep it up, I started the same age as you Nick! Just at that time I wasn't half as successful as you already are, you have a very bright future


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

BC Handyman;1931645 said:


> so what if he 14, I don't always get it, but I aim for $250/hr with my pickup


Comments like this make this forum useless and laughable for us who actually operate and run professional established company's.

Shoot for your fairytale and enjoy sitting in front of the TV in your chair when it snows.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

newhere;1931704 said:


> You tell him you expect a check within 12 hours of storms completion also.


unfortunately, this is not the way it works when you're a subcontractor... that's not even logical or reasonable to expect that.

*shakes head*


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

NickSnow&Mow;1931807 said:


> Because he started young too and wants to help the young guys?


Business is business. It's not a charity.

also, just a random question. Don't you go to school during the day? All of my winter seasonal employees, can't whole other jobs or have other commitments where they have set schedules, because when its done snowing, we need to go and go now. unless you're a drop out, how could you possibly even be reliable? not trying to be rude. Just asking a question


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

NPMinc;1931964 said:


> So peteo are you saying you would enter into contract with a 14 y/o and have him alone do work that was contracted under your business? I too think the kids ambition is admirable, BUT there is no way a 14yo's operation can be viewed professionally as a serious legitimate business!


I'd give him a chance, yeah. Why not? I'd take five of him over a lot of what passes for adults I've seen these days. You really don't have that much to lose. Your rep is probably going to suffer a hit in the first place since you took on too much and can't service everything in a timely manner. Yeah you could hire someone older but then you're dealing with someone who probably isn't going to give sh!t about your accounts anyhow. Finding a good sub is hard and finding one who's going to care is harder. Nick has ambition and seems like he wants to be legitimate professional regardless of who's account it is.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

lawnlandscape;1932550 said:


> Comments like this make this forum useless and laughable for us who actually operate and run professional established company's.
> 
> Shoot for your fairytale and enjoy sitting in front of the TV in your chair when it snows.


I hope your joking, though it's not funny. actually it is very funny to me, what would make you think it's laughable? Cause it's true. What would make me unprofessional? What makes you think I'm not established? Your comments are laughable, very laughable:laughing:

I'll say it in this thread instead of mine, but I just did a lot that took me 2hr &10 min to do & I charged & got $470.

I'd say your talking out your azz, cause you don't have a clue what your talking about. Just cause you don't know how to bid profitably or you live in a crappy lowballers area, don't mean everyone else ain't making money.
Sitting in a chair when it snows? :laughing: Boy(I assume your younger then him talking like that) I'm sure I work as much as most of the busiest guys on this site. Word of advice: Maybe you should do a bit of research before you make comments that make you sound.... well like you do.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

There will always be people who tell you " you can't do something" "No!!" " That won't work!!! " The best businessmen tune that out and forge ahead with their own brand. Good luck Nick.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

I'll also add I average about $180/hr with my truck throughout the winter. What you average? Probably don't know do you?


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Thanks triple l I appreciate it. I look forward to seeing "Dear NickSnow&Mow triple l has replied to a thread you have subscribed to". And thanks Mark im not too worried about a few negative comments especially when they're from the one trying to start fights and making fun of someones comment in a thread lol. Im with BC Handyman my goal isnt to get filthy rich in life but theirs nothing wrong with doing a good job and charging what the market will allow if you're going for a more high end level of service, keep charging what you want and probably having nice equipment.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

BC Handyman;1932573 said:


> I hope your joking, though it's not funny. actually it is very funny to me, what would make you think it's laughable? Cause it's true. What would make me unprofessional? What makes you think I'm not established? Your comments are laughable, very laughable:laughing:
> 
> I'll say it in this thread instead of mine, but I just did a lot that took me 2hr &10 min to do & I charged & got $470.
> 
> ...


"I aim for $250 with my pickup". = 1 truck.

you know, honestly I'm not going to even waste my breath. The last time I had a conversation like this with someone it ended up being a 17 year old that was plowing in his dads truck, and he too claimed to be one of the biggest companies on this site. Lol.

but I would love to come over to your house for dinner sometime and have your personal cook prepare us a fine meal.

Silly internet.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

lawnlandscape;1932565 said:


> Business is business. It's not a charity.
> 
> also, just a random question. Don't you go to school during the day? All of my winter seasonal employees, can't whole other jobs or have other commitments where they have set schedules, because when its done snowing, we need to go and go now. unless you're a drop out, how could you possibly even be reliable? not trying to be rude. Just asking a question


 Yeah I go to school, not a chance I'm gonna drop out. I wake up at 4am work till 9 or 10 miss an hour or less of school and then go at it from about 3 - 7 or 8. Lol why would I drop out I get to chill with my friends all day everyday.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

lawnlandscape;1932607 said:


> "I aim for $250 with my pickup". = 1 truck.
> 
> you know, honestly I'm not going to even waste my breath. The last time I had a conversation like this with someone it ended up being a 17 year old that was plowing in his dads truck, and he too claimed to be one of the biggest companies on this site. Lol.
> 
> ...


Good, cause more you talk, the more you sound silly, Yup often get $250/hr with 1-3/4ton pick up & 8' blade, if you knew what your talking about you'd know how silly you sound making comments that you clearly don't know about.
No dinner invite for you, but the many others on site I'm friends with know they are welcome for dinner anytime they in town.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

BC Handyman;1932634 said:


> Good, cause more you talk, the more you sound silly, Yup often get $250/hr with 1-3/4ton pick up & 8' blade, if you knew what your talking about you'd know how silly you sound making comments that you clearly don't know about.
> No dinner invite for you, but the many others on site I'm friends with know they are welcome for dinner anytime they in town.


OK, since your so incredibly defensive, and bragging about these rates such as $250.00 per hour while telling me I don't know what I am talking about, I thought I would take literally 2 minutes of my time to do some research, as you requested. Now I am able to point out the obvious about you that I have already previously stated and assumed.

*Here are the rates you charge based off YOUR website (in your words)*:

General labour starts at $25.00/hr per man
Min. charge is $20.00
24hr emergency service rates start at $35.00/hr per 
Snow removal starting at the low price of only $15.00
If your job needs a plow truck JGD Handyman has 2 to get your snow removal job done.

So your right. You really do make $250.00 per hour and you really are a huge company. Just to really show who this big shot is, lets take a look at the registered address of company location, shall we? (See Picture).

I should really learn how to price myself profitably. I only wish I could have a shop like yours, charge $25.00 per hour and start my snow removal rates at $15.00.  :waving:


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

lawnlandscape;1932748 said:


> OK, since your so incredibly defensive, and bragging about these rates such as $250.00 per hour while telling me I don't know what I am talking about, I thought I would take literally 2 minutes of my time to do some research, as you requested. Now I am able to point out the obvious about you that I have already previously stated and assumed.
> 
> *Here are the rates you charge based off YOUR website (in your words)*:
> 
> ...


 You took that way too far. First of all you think your business/you are better than him because you have a shop that you probably rent anyways? His bank acount could be loaded as a result of staying smaller and keeping costs down. Also this thread was never about who has the best business or weather I'm legal on the road or not haha. Neige has/had over 3100 residential counts alone not including commercial and you don't see him bragging. Same with triple l he has a 100k loader and drives a Denali but you don't see him bragging about it either. Im not trying to get involved with this but just my opinion. Probably should have said "any input would be appreciated" because it's not lol. Thanks to everyone with the positive comments and support.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

A lot of business start in sheds.

A lot of business have a PO box. as the Registered address .
Some use the address of the owner. As the business can rent,own different locations. 

How much I charge does not depend on the number of employes I employ .


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

NickSnow&Mow;1932766 said:


> You took that way too far. First of all you think your business/you are better than him because you have a shop that you probably rent anyways? His bank acount could be loaded as a result of staying smaller and keeping costs down. Also this thread was never about who has the best business or weather I'm legal on the road or not haha. Neige has/had over 3100 residential counts alone not including commercial and you don't see him bragging. Same with triple l he has a 100k loader and drives a Denali but you don't see him bragging about it either. Im not trying to get involved with this but just my opinion. Probably should have said "any input would be appreciated" because it's not lol. Thanks to everyone with the positive comments and support.


In no way shape or form am I or did I brag. He told me to do my research, and that's exactly what I did. Lol.

Never once did I say or even imply me or my company is 'better' than anyone else. You don't see me talking about my equipment, its not even listed, you don't see me talking about my personal assets. By no means a bragger here. I find that almost all the guys that are, are bs'ing.

Also. We don't pay rent, we pay a mortgage.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

lawnlandscape;1932748 said:


> OK, since your so incredibly defensive, and bragging about these rates such as $250.00 per hour while telling me I don't know what I am talking about, I thought I would take literally 2 minutes of my time to do some research, as you requested. Now I am able to point out the obvious about you that I have already previously stated and assumed.
> 
> *Here are the rates you charge based off YOUR website (in your words)*:
> 
> ...


Good, now you know a few things what you talking about, btw, thats my house, not my shop, 2nd show me where I claimed to be a big company. 3rd I clean off cars for $15 what you think I do drivways or parking lots for that? Again, just cause you can't make that kind of $ doing snow don't mean anything except YOU cant make that kind of $ pushing snow with a truck, I should not be called a liar just cause I make more then you. Maybe you should rethink your operation so you can make the $ thats possible.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Matt next time use THe same scale in the pics.
Or your cars are really big


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

BC Handyman;1932779 said:


> Good, now you know a few things what you talking about, btw, thats my house, not my shop, 2nd show me where I claimed to be a big company. 3rd I clean off cars for $15 what you think I do drivways or parking lots for that? Again, just cause you can't make that kind of $ doing snow don't mean anything except YOU cant make that kind of $ pushing snow with a truck, I should not be called a liar just cause I make more then you. Maybe you should rethink your operation so you can make the $ thats possible.


Ugh, the bs'ing continues. (THIS my friends, is 'bragging') Lol. Good night


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

SnoFarmer;1932782 said:


> Matt next time use THe same scale in the pics.
> Or your cars are really big


In fact I photo shopped the cars to make them smaller to make our shop look even bigger. Obviously I did not make them small enough. *rolls eyes*


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1932785 said:


> Ugh, the bs'ing continues. (THIS my friends, is 'bragging') Lol. Good night


Before you go to bed, you should finish the thread you started about the salting at the apartment complex. You never answered my questions.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

NickSnow&Mow;1932766 said:


> You took that way too far. First of all you think your business/you are better than him because you have a shop that you probably rent anyways? His bank acount could be loaded as a result of staying smaller and keeping costs down. Also this thread was never about who has the best business or weather I'm legal on the road or not haha. Neige has/had over 3100 residential counts alone not including commercial and you don't see him bragging. Same with triple l he has a 100k loader and drives a Denali but you don't see him bragging about it either. Im not trying to get involved with this but just my opinion. Probably should have said "any input would be appreciated" because it's not lol. Thanks to everyone with the positive comments and support.


For a kid you're pretty perceptive.....Thumbs Up You've probably learn by now those who are full of themselves are full of ........

When I did sub work it was by the job not by the hour, working by the hour gives little incentive to be efficient and invest in equipment.
Most guys in my area (myself included) look to make 25-30% off of their subs.

I'm still trying to get my head around how you're insured being underage but it's none of our business.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Its amazing how a thread discussing a young individuals aspirations of making something positive and productive out of his life can turn into a petty game of making others appear inept.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Dogplow Dodge;1932856 said:


> Its amazing how a thread discussing a young individuals aspirations of making something positive and productive out of his life can turn into a petty game of making others appear inept.


Are you kidding?? That's how every thread goes!


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

SnoFarmer;1932782 said:


> Matt next time use THe same scale in the pics.
> Or your cars are really big


But then he don't look like a big shot.



lawnlandscape;1932785 said:


> Ugh, the bs'ing continues. (THIS my friends, is 'bragging') Lol. Good night


Call it what you want, cause it's the truth. I know the truth can hurt sometimes, espesialy when you realize you've not been living up to your potential.

Since I'm known as being way to nice of a guy, I'll give you a tip.
I'm not going to name names, but how much do you think the "resi kings" make per hr with their machines? Dense routes with efficient machines = that kind of $ so you know.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Nick The Kid, I still don't understand WHY you would want to make money for this guy, when you could just as easily gain that many new accounts next season? I would definitely consider taking on his accounts if he can't handle them, but I would leave it at that. I'm not giving him money to do nothing!


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

SnoFarmer;1932782 said:


> Matt next time use THe same scale in the pics.
> Or your cars are really big


Hey BC, farmer has a point, you need some bigger cars. :laughing: That will show him you are a dedicated snow removal professional.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

BC Handyman;1932864 said:


> But how much do you think the "resi kings" make per hr with their machines? Dense routes with efficient machines = that kind of $ so you know.


Seriously... your getting annoying. My company services over 150 residential properties in our county. Pretty sure I have absolutely no idea what I am doing.

It's important to note that we were not talking about residential snow removal. You were talking about "plowing lots with a pickup."


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

WIPensFan;1932867 said:


> Nick The Kid, I still don't understand WHY you would want to make money for this guy, when you could just as easily gain that many new accounts next season? I would definitely consider taking on his accounts if he can't handle them, but I would leave it at that. I'm not giving him money to do nothing!


"Nick the kid "....lol.

Went to school with Nick the d!ck, but I remember him being one. Nick here seems far from that...(so far ) lol

Working on gaining your own clients is good advice. If you want to take on a couple of your buddies jobs, i guess if you made your rate, and had nothing better to do, have yourself a blast.

Good luck with your endeavor. I wish i had your determination at your age.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Dogplow Dodge;1932856 said:


> Its amazing how a thread discussing a young individuals aspirations of making something positive and productive out of his life can turn into a petty game of making others appear inept.


I know ehh, try to give a kid advice & get called a liar & accused of all sorts of silly things



WIPensFan;1932867 said:


> Nick The Kid, I still don't understand WHY you would want to make money for this guy, when you could just as easily gain that many new accounts next season? I would definitely consider taking on his accounts if he can't handle them, but I would leave it at that. I'm not giving him money to do nothing!


Since they resi's if he really wants them this year, sub, next year try to take them.



kimber750;1932868 said:


> Hey BC, farmer has a point, you need some bigger cars. :laughing: That will show him you are a dedicated snow removal professional.


lol



lawnlandscape;1932870 said:


> Seriously... your getting annoying. My company services over 150 residential properties in our county. Pretty sure I have absolutely no idea what I am doing.
> 
> It's important to note that we were not talking about residential snow removal. You were talking about "plowing lots with a pickup."


wow 150 now thats not bragging, I only service 115 diff properties & been in business for 11 years so I too not know all, but clearly more then you since you think those #'s are bs, also you never showed me where I said I was a big company like you claimed I said. What can't sleep? no worries I'll be up for a while since I'm on the west coast, so you can show me where I said that.

look, you started all this BS cause you don't believe my rates I often get, then proceded to make wild & thoughtless claims about me & my business all cause why? I'm guessing only reason is cause your jealous that I make the rates you wish you could.

If you want to continue I'm more then willing to, but at same time I don't care what you think, but I do know what I make & how hard I work.

sorry Kid bout the hijack, but after his out of nowhere comments I had to say these things. like buff says you seem to got a good head on shoulders so you'll do alright.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

BC Handyman;1932895 said:


> I know ehh, try to give a kid advice & get called a liar & accused of all sorts of silly things
> 
> Since they resi's if he really wants them this year, sub, next year try to take them.
> 
> ...


Damnit. Got me. I'm jealous. Guess the conversation is complete.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

lawnlandscape;1932912 said:


> Damnit. Got me. I'm jealous. Guess the conversation is complete.


Thumbs Up Good night & good luck Nick.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

We used to joke about everyone on here being a 14 yr old troll...
I just came to realize that was doing the 14 yr olds a disservice...


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

BC Handyman;1932895 said:


> I know ehh, try to give a kid advice & get called a liar & accused of all sorts of silly things
> .


In the big picture, who gives a **** if he, or anyone else calls you a liar ? You know what you do. You know what works for you. Your peers accept what you say as your experiences. If a few people disagree with you, so be it. The only opinion that matters on how you conduct yourself is yours and your clents. F. Everybody else.

Stop feeding those who thrive on conflict....


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## gasjr4wd (Feb 14, 2010)

NickSnow&Mow;1932032 said:


> I talked to him once, he might not even know my Age yet. I'll obviously tell him but he might not even do it because of that, who knows? No point arguing about it forever and I see your point. I'll let you know what happens when I talk to him this week.


I think our posts crossed. I didn't see this posting.
Yes, you should absolutely let him know your age. Just tell him you are looking into a work permit (or what ever it's called in your location at this time. Back in my day it was a work permit and X jobs could only be done by someone of X age - except family businesses. But that was MD many, many years ago.)
Don't keep the age from him. Be upfront. I assume he is also going to ask about your business licence and insurance.
Worried about making too much money?
google: teenage self made millionaires
Somehow I don't think anyone told them they can't do something.
Let us know how it goes.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

The Canada Labour Standards Regulations state that persons under 17 years of age may be employed provided that:

they are not required by provincial law to attend school;
the work is not likely to endanger their health or safety;
they are not required to work underground in a mine or in employment prohibited for young workers under the Explosives Regulations, the Nuclear Safety and Control Act and Regulations, or the Canada Shipping Act; and
_ they are not required to work between 11 p.m. on one day and 6 a.m. on the following day._

While these federal rules are mirrored in provincial legislation, remember that the federal government regulates only a tiny percentage of Canadian workers. Almost all workers are regulated by provincial legislation

A parent or guardian must consent in writing to the employer for the adolescent to be employed. *Adolescents must not work for longer than two hours outside of normal school hours on a day in which they are required to be at school, *or work for longer than eight hours on a day in which they are not required to be at school. These restrictions on hours also relate to shifts, as* no adolescent is allowed to work overnight from 9:00 p.m. to the following 6:00 a.m.* *Adolescents must also be constantly supervised by someone over 18 while at work. * Adolescent employment in Alberta is set out completely in Employment Standards Regulation, section 52. -

See more at: http://www.lawnow.org/protection-of-young-workers-in-canadian-employment-law/#sthash.WX12L4RM.dpuf

and for a easy reference chart.
http://www.lawnow.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Provincial-Youth-Employment-Laws-Chart.pdf


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## gasjr4wd (Feb 14, 2010)

NickSnow&Mow;1931764 said:


> Not trying to say I'm worth that much sorry if it comes across that way, not trying to sound cocky. I should be making $10-15 an hour like everyone else my age, It's not that hard to drive a tractor and shovel some walkways. What I'm saying is if I can make $150 an hour charging per driveway then why can't I get $100-$125 from someone else!!? You know the cost of doing business better than I do.


You will learn down the road in business it's not what the person is worth but more so what the job/task is worth. A unskilled worker doing X job will only make what the task pays. It doesn't matter if that person just started with the company or has worked for the same company for 50 years. That job is only worth X amount. The engineer that designed the tractor from nothing makes much more than the guy on the assembly line putting on the same wheel and tightening the same 4 bolts day after day.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

SnoFarmer;1933130 said:


> The Canada Labour Standards Regulations state that persons under 17 years of age may be employed provided that:
> 
> they are not required by provincial law to attend school;
> the work is not likely to endanger their health or safety;
> ...


9 pm to 6am is a problem last night I finished at like 11pm and I usually get up at 4:30 am. Like I said I'll let you know what happens, we'll look into our Ontario laws and I'll tell him my age. What a joke I'll work 10 hours a day if I want to. Sometimes the federalies piss me off like "no blue lights on public roads only Amber" I'm not going to work myself to death but in a big storm I'll be out for 6 hours on a school night, who cares!!?? Again I've said too much. The Ontario one only says I can't work in a mine or logging and I can only miss some school with my parents convent, that's not as bad as I thought. Thanks


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

http://www.naalc.org/migrant/english/pdf/mgcanchl_en.pdf

http://www.worksmartontario.gov.on.ca/scripts/default.asp?contentID=2-2-4&mcategory=health

At what age can I start work in Canada?
It depends on the province where you want
to work.
In general, youths may start working in most
industries and occupations at the age of 14 in
New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador,
Ontario, and Quebec, at age 15 in Alberta and
British Columbia, and at age 16 in Manitoba.
In Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and
Saskatchewan, children younger than 14 may
work in many jobs without a permit, but there
are restrictions.

Can I work whenever I want?
No. Most provinces
restrict the number
of hours minors can
work. In addition, each
province has laws that
require minors to be in
school at certain times
of the day.
Generally, young workers may not work at
night or during normal school hours.

Can I work at night?
Not usually. In most
provinces, workers
under a certain age
may not work after 10
or 11 p.m

How many hours a day can I work?
In most provinces, minors may not work more
than two or three hours a day on a school day,
or more than eight hours on a non-school day

Ontario
. Youth under 16 must
go to school and cannot work
during school hours without a
permit, unless they have
completed high school.


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## gasjr4wd (Feb 14, 2010)

You guys know it's different when working for someone else but when you are self employed laws are different, right? At least it is down here in the states.
(a few years ago I went through all this in the printing field... employee vs subcontractor... salaried vs hourly... exempt vs nonexempt. Then once you understand it uncle sam changes things just for fun. It's why many times when I needed extra hands I contacted temp agencies. I paid THAT company. They dealt with Billy, John, Betty, and Sue.)
Also my wife deals with this stuff in her daytime job in the corporate world.
I've had a business license for about 20 years. I've never been an employee of it.

But then we are getting off the topic that the OP asked.
I for one am not going to tell him what he can and can't do.
I am curious what type of business he has. C corp, S corp, Sole Proprietorship, LLC, etc.

And for insurance, years ago when I was talking to our former underwriter he told me a company will write a policy for anything you want. They don't care as long as you can pay the premiums.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Not really, just because you have money doesn't mean every INC co will cover your activity.
or a minor.

In the us as i'm sure Canada has something to the effect that a minor can't really own anything as the parents are
100% responsible for the minor, the parents really own all of it. 


Thus the parents own the business and are responsible for the INS, as they are responsible for their minor children.

he could Or his parents, hire a employee to do the work,
but the minor regardless if they own the business can't work the hours that may be required to and he will need a supervision.


His best bet is to saturate his area, neighborhood.
and when he is old enough he will have some experience.


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## gasjr4wd (Feb 14, 2010)

SnoFarmer;1933412 said:


> Not really, just because you have money doesn't mean every INC co will cover your activity.
> or a minor.
> 
> In the us as i'm sure Canada has something to the effect that a minor can't really own anything as the parents are
> ...


As he was the largest underwriter in the state and did every type, I believed him. (state farm) How it works is you tell them what and how you want coverage and they look it over and decide the odds of X happening and how much it would cost to fix or recover from X happening. It made sense how he explained it.
I know as a business owner I needed to tell the insurance company (and they came out) if I was doing retail or not and if anything happened to the owner(s) they are SOL.
Some lawyers say a minor can't own anything, but the last lawyer and prosecutor I dealt with in Delaware say they can own something. You don't want to know how I know... And it seems in Delaware parents are not responsible for their kids. Again, I know this for a fact. Criminal and Civil.
Unless it has changed (in 40 years) or the state matters, in Maryland you can work for a family owned business underage. I don't know the details but I did it and my brother did it. (two totally different jobs/businesses) Friends worked on their family farms, and in their retail farm store.
Oh, Maryland is still age 14 and anything younger needs a special permit. I just checked.
If it's different up north and parents are responsible for their kids, I just might move. 
But yes, I agree his best deal would be just to build his own business on his own.
And to be honest he doesn't sound like he's 14.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

He is in Canada they do'nt care about our problems 
and its not a farm,
yes, you can work for a family business i did at 14 .

then, the emancipation of minors and this is not possible in every state, but than im sure its different in another country.

the govt in Canada limits the hrs they can work.
the exception is farming.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

gasjr4wd;1933706 said:


> As he was the largest underwriter in the state and did every type, I believed him. (state farm) How it works is you tell them what and how you want coverage and they look it over and decide the odds of X happening and how much it would cost to fix or recover from X happening. It made sense how he explained it.
> I know as a business owner I needed to tell the insurance company (and they came out) if I was doing retail or not and if anything happened to the owner(s) they are SOL.
> Some lawyers say a minor can't own anything, but the last lawyer and prosecutor I dealt with in Delaware say they can own something. You don't want to know how I know... And it seems in Delaware parents are not responsible for their kids. Again, I know this for a fact. Criminal and Civil.
> Unless it has changed (in 40 years) or the state matters, in Maryland you can work for a family owned business underage. I don't know the details but I did it and my brother did it. (two totally different jobs/businesses) Friends worked on their family farms, and in their retail farm store.
> ...


 Why am I sounding young? And yeah it seems like farmers are exempt from every rule their is.


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## gasjr4wd (Feb 14, 2010)

NickSnow&Mow;1933748 said:


> Why am I sounding young?


no, older.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

I agree, he seems older to me too. the way he talks & wording he uses did make me think he's a 18yr old pretending to be a kid


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

BC Handyman;1933948 said:


> I agree, he seems older to me too. the way he talks & wording he uses did make me think he's a 18yr old pretending to be a kid


He still has all those english classes still fresh in his head. Thumbs Up


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

kimber750;1933982 said:


> He still has all those english classes still fresh in his head. Thumbs Up


 True story just finished an essay lol.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

I had the pleasure of meeting a tall eager young man a few weeks ago at a Toronto trade show. We spoke for 20 mins and discussed business, equipment, route planning and much more. When he left he reminded me of someone else on this site I met some 5 years ago with his dad who had the same work ethic. He has done well for himself, and I am sure Nick will too. I had no idea how old he was till someone later told me he was 14, I had pegged him to be 17.Thumbs Up


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

Nick,

I give you respect for going out and making something for yourself. It seems all we hear about is people wanting more for doing less.
As for the age we could not hire you as a sub but I am in MN and I have no idea what your laws and regulations are. If you can do it legally that's perfect. If you can't I wouldn't risk it. You and others would stand to lose to much or cause problems for now and into the future.

For the real question about subbing. We sub out approx 40% of our work. Up until last season we also subbed for another company. If you can get the rates you need/want and it works in the favor of both parties there are great benefits to it. A good signed agreement is always a must for us. You want to have clearly defined as to what work is to be done by whom and what the compensation for said work will be. Also define payment terms. Define what will happen should either party not hold up their end of the deal. 
We can start another thread for the pros and cons of subcontracting. This thread has enough side topics. If you can do it legally then I so do it as long as the terms work for you. I don't know that anyone on the internet can answer that question for you though.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

I've got an update for you guys. So I went around and looked at some properties. Turns out he only has a couple in my area but I got them for the price I would have charged so that worked out good. He also warned me about someone that hired him last year and got two contractors, whoever showed up first got the job and they owe a bunch of money. Turns out they WHERE my customer so I went over got my money and dumped them. Thanks, Nick


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Good & good, you don't need to deal with customers like that & glad you got your price, now do a good job & your set.


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## greywynd (Dec 13, 2008)

As long as Nick has the insurance he's good to go and can be completely legit here in Ontario. 

Being self employed, the labour laws as an employee don't apply to him, but I can't say I know of any laws here for hours of work that would. 

I wish my 14 yo had a fraction of the drive to succeed that you do!!! 

Best of luck, and there's a lot of good guys giving you advice for sure, ignore the naysayers.


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