# '05 f250 beefed up to 550...or more? help



## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

yesterday i bought an '05 f250. i was looking at getting a slightly bigger truck but i got a great deal on this one and a good friend of mine works at a spring shop so, he is going to beef up my suspension to accomodate my plowing equipment. i am new to plowing, but plowed all year this season. mainly supermarkets. i am buying a blizzard plow pre-season, this year. i am also looking at a large salter. it's the metal one, it may be stainless steel. i think sno way makes it. 8 ft. i also have a friend that deals with reading utility bodies. the pickup bed will be swapped for one sometime very soon. if my figures add up correctly:

appx. an additional 
500 lbs for the utility body
900 - 1400 lbs for the plow, depending on the 810 or the 8611
2200 lbs with the salter full
500 lbs conservatively, if the toolboxes are left full, while plowing

i'm taking all advice here, guys.

right now the funds are here for the 8611, if i want it. it's a monster plow and i would like to have it. i could go either way. i don't want to get it if anything is innapropriate for my setup. my spring shop buddy assures me that he can do anything to the truck that i need done. i'm in no rush here and want to be sure i'm making the right decision. i will be doing mostly commercial lots, with the exception of all of my friends (who i'm finding out that i have more of now that i am going to own a plow, weird.) who are going to have their driveways plowed for free.

let me know what ya think. thnx in advance.


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*beefing up truck*

There is more to making a 250 to a 550 than springs. There are differentials, frame and tires that allow the vehicle to carry more weight. Also the gearing is much different for a 550 than a 250. Bigger brakes also. Over load any truck you cant stop it as well.

I have an International and it has huge brakes. It will stop 26K lbs. Different transmission, rear end, springs, frame, drive shaft and the list goes on.

There is more to making a truck carry heavier weight than springs.

Dave


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## gpin (Dec 5, 2003)

Skyking has a good point. You also want to be sure that the modifications don't go so far as give Ford an opportunity to question your warranty.


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## oldmankent (Mar 2, 2001)

The 8611 is too much plow for that truck. Like said before, the difference between a 350 and 550 is much more than just springs. I think all your truck really needs is the plow prep package, maybe timbrens up front, and you should have the heavy suspension package in the rear that would give you helper springs and sway bars both front and back. If the truck still doesn't hold the weight great, then I'd put some airbags on in the rear. That way you won't have a really stiff ride when you are not plowing.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

All you have to do is change the emblems from f 250 to f 550 and your done . 


Listen to the above posts ..


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## johntwist (Feb 10, 2004)

Ground con_troll_ to Major Tom.............


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Even if you did swap the axles, brakes, tires, springs, frame, etc, you would still according to the sticker in the door have an F250 with the GVW of an F250. Sooo as long as you don't overload an F250 with the above equipment, legally, you will be all set. 

Your best option despite the 'great deal', if you want an 8611, utility box, spreader, buy a 550. You will spend the same amount turning a 250 into a 550. That's why Ford makes different size trucks. And you will be legal.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

thnx for your help guys. i was under the impression that the only difference in the two was springs. the people at the dealer told me that, and a couple of other people who were not part of the deal. i tihnk they all believe it's just the springs that are different. this changes things a bit. i might be taking this truck back. thnx again.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Sounds about right for a dealership\salesman. Not to mention the whole dual wheels thing in back.


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*almost forgot*

There was an accident locally. Woman pulled out in front of a gravel truck. Woman lost her life. The cops loaded the gravel back into the truck and then had it scaled to see if it was legal. What the truck is CERTIFIED for GVW is the legal weight limit of that truck. This creates a liability issue for you. Send out a truck with more load than the certified weight will allow and have an accident you have more legal problems.

Dad said anything connected with automotive is evil. That salesman is dumb like fox. He sold a unit that is all he is looking at.

We never send out an over loaded truck. We have to much to loose. I hope this has been all constructive. I meant it as that.

Dave


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

the 550 was just to give you an idea that i am trying to beef up the suspension to handle this plowing equipment. i just read that if i buy a 350 i am going to pay more money to register it. there is so much information on all of this and it's hard to know who to believe. 

i just went outisde and counted the leaf springs on the 350 and 250. they are the same in the rear. the only difference is the spacer blocks. is this going to be a big difference when plowing? as i've said, i'm planning on having that 8ft sno way salter in the back. i can live without the 8611 plow. the utility body is going on though.

i'm thinking still of keeping this 250 and beefing up the suspension just to handle this equipment. i don't feel that this much weight would be considered overloading the vehicle. i think that this much weight would be fine w/out any suspension work. comments?


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## echovalley (Dec 5, 2004)

The 05 fords have a 6000lb front axle it will hold your plow no problem.[810 is as big as you can go on a single wheel truck]As far as a sander goes anything over a 6ft SS sander on that truck loaded you will be over # and just asking for a ticket.


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## echovalley (Dec 5, 2004)

My 03 f350 pickup with a 8ft fisher and a 6ft SS sander loaded with sand salt myself and fuel leaves the scale at about 12000lbs.My truck is rated for 9700lbs .Im 2300lbs over weight{i use that truck in one lot the hole storm,it is off the road}


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

If your #'s are correct for the utility box and the salter full then you should be legal with a 810 Blizzard. I am guessing you bought a gas truck which makes the front end lighter. I would only put a 810 on though. That is plenty of plow and the extra foot for the extra 500lbs is not worth it. Where did you come up with 2200lbs for a loaded salter? That might be a little light especially if it is a gas steel model.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

i dont want to get any tickets. i don't mind driving around w/ a beefier suspension and the 8 ft spreader. if i have to stick w/ a 6 ft spreader, i will. i just looked at the truck outside. my gvwr is 9000 lbs. my front end gawr is 5000 lbs. my rear gawr is 6000 lbs. i'm not sure what i'm looking at here. is my rear gawr the amount that i can have in the bed? 

it's a gas truck. i came up with the 2200 loaded number being conservative. thnx for your patience. i'm new at this


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## cumminswithplow (Jan 30, 2004)

Gross vehicle weight rating is the total amount your truck can weigh. Yours is 9000lbs. That means that your truck can weigh 9000lbs .So too figure out what you can carry you have to deduct the weight of the truck, plus options (like 4 wheel drive) fuel and passengers. The remainder is what you can carry. The axle ratings are the max each axle can hold/carry. So in the rear you have to subtract the weight of the truck resting on the rear axle. And the same goes for the front. But if you max out the front (with a plow) and then the rear ( with a spreader) you will be over you gross vehicle rating. Bigger springs will help. But if you are that heavy you need to be able to stop that rig too. If you need a medium duty truck then thats what you should buy. If you are mildy over weight and you don't carry passengers. You will probably be ok. Be careful when overloading. There are things like bearings, and ball joints, and u joints, and brakes, and the list goes on,that are affected by the load.


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## oldmankent (Mar 2, 2001)

fredhedd said:


> i dont want to get any tickets. i don't mind driving around w/ a beefier suspension and the 8 ft spreader. if i have to stick w/ a 6 ft spreader, i will. i just looked at the truck outside. my gvwr is 9000 lbs. my front end gawr is 5000 lbs. my rear gawr is 6000 lbs. i'm not sure what i'm looking at here. is my rear gawr the amount that i can have in the bed?
> 
> it's a gas truck. i came up with the 2200 loaded number being conservative. thnx for your patience. i'm new at this


Your truck does not have the plow prep package if the front GAWR is 5000 lbs. You might want to check with your dealer because if you put a plow on it it could void your warranty.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

the dealer told me this truck has a plow prep package. the sticker says front gawr is 5200 and the rear is 6100. let me know if i should punch him in the nose.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

The payload you can carry is approx. 3,000lbs. With a plow weighting between 700 and 1,000lbs you will have 2,000 to 2,300lbs left. The approx weight of a 8' salter is 700 lbs. This leaves about 1500lbs of salt you can carry. A 8' salter will hold almost 4,000lbs of salt. A yard of salt weights around 1 ton. You could add 1 or 2 extra springs and this would help, you could put a little more weight in the salter but you still have the same braking system. You will have to drive accordingly. Most SRW trucks with salters in them will be over the legal limit. If your calls are close to where you get your material and you are getting rid of some of it close to that location then not a big deal but if you have to drive a long way then maybe not a good ideal. It would also be hard on the truck to plow with the salter fully loaded but you would most likely not need 4 wheel drive. I run a 3500 Chev with a 9'6" Fisher V and while he is plowing the salter is only 3/4 full. This truck is not 4x4 and the GVWR is 11'400lbs.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

thanks for all of the replies. you've all been very helpful. no matter if i get the f2 or 350, i think i will be adding springs to at least the back. do you really think that the braking system would pose any problem? i will be plowing for 30-40 hours straight, in the most extreme times. the salter will be as full as can safely be. am i thinking too much if i ask if this v8 motor will suffice, while i'm under max load (salter full or close to it, and the extra weight of my utility body), pushing 2-3 inches of snow at a time?

i've asked the dealer all of these questions but they tell you whatever they think will get the truck off of the lot, and then send you on your way.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

I once had a dealer try to sell me a 1500 ram, and then ? What the heck ya need a 2500 for. He claimed the offroad package made the 1500 a heavy duty and it was allmost the same truck. I laughed and listed everything these guys said and walked out the door. Oh ya the 810 is around 970# so your pushin the front allready.

Todd


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

another person told me that i was going to be close to my limit in the front. if this is teh case and i would plow better with some suspension work done to the front, then that is what i want to do. a friend of mine owns a spring shop. he will be the one doing all of the work for me. i'm sure i can get anything i want or need done very cheap. one thing i dont understand is the front gawr. if it's rated at five thousand two hundred lbs, then why would this nine hundred lb plow be pushing the limit? i am not understanding the gawr correctly.


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## Dieselgeek (Dec 15, 2003)

The front is rated to hold 5,200 lbs. So take the weight of the engine, suspension, tires, frame, body panels, most of the cab weight, etc and you don't have much more room for weight on the front end. On top of that, that 900 lbs you want to put on there, is hanging 3 feet of the front of your truck, so it makes for even more weight. Sounds to me like you plan on snapping this truck in half. It doesn't matter how many springs you put on it, it isn't going to be any better on bearings, u-joints, axles, diffs, brakes, etc. There is no way you can put a blizzard 810 (don't even think about a 8611), a utility body, and a fully loaded 8' spreader on your truck and expect it to last, let alone not be dangerous to you, and others on the road around you. Do the smart thing, and buy a bigger truck.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

You said under extreme conditions that you may be plowing 30-40 hours. This is a lot of time. You also have to consider that a salter in the truck is going to slow you down as you have to use only your mirrors when backing up. You might consider getting a dedicated salt truck. Maybe something older that you can fix up over the summer. A flat deck works well or ever take the deck off and mount your salter to the frame. On the nights that your are plowing you might need to find a driver but if you have 30 hours of plowing you are not salting everything in 1 load anyways.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

Sorry I quoeted the 810 at 970#s it actually says 950#s at the Blizzard site. This truck will need more then springs in the front  
Plus the tranny should drop out with your first load of salt in the box(if it makes it that long) good luck on this one. Maybe you should look into a 550, still might be a lil small though. 

Oh and on the 30 hours of plowing, I would not make that a habit. You or someone else could end up dead bud. Ask any idiot (myself included) they all have stories about the "big one". Its not worth the risk to run that long. Very irresponsible to "public safety".

Todd


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## gpin (Dec 5, 2003)

The weight is an issue for the brakes. Especially with plowing the added weight makes it more difficult to stop, the brakes heat up and are less effective and wear out sooner. I'd outfit the rig you bought lightly and then maybe go fo a larger used backup rig. IMO, you are wasting your $ to upfit a truck. Good luck. PM me, I'm from Phila and I sold a couple houses to a Ford dealer, so it's a long shot but maybe I can talk to him if its the same dealer.


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## snow white (Aug 18, 2003)

*f-250 to 550*

i have a 250 that has been beefed to the same as a 550,and i have a 810 on it and it handles it excellent,i am not sure what the weight diference .from what u listed i'm sure yo can handle it ,but the 8611 ,may be pushing it,this better be an ownr operater situation, wouldn't wnt just anyone using this setup


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## echovalley (Dec 5, 2004)

Is your truck a 04 or 05 .Front gvw on 04 with plow prep is 5200lbs,the 05 coil spring plow prep is 6000lbs?????????


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

SNOW WHITE

Do you mean your front axle is the same as a 550 or your entire truck. If it is the entire truck your are saying you can put 5 tons in the box. I not sure if they make a set of tires to handle that load on a SRW. I have had 4 tons in my 3500HD and it has 19.5" tires and she was maxed out.


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## rjstractor (Jan 28, 2005)

snow white said:


> i have a 250 that has been beefed to the same as a 550


The only way you can beef a 250 to a 550 is take your 250 cab and bolt it to a 550. The only common components are the cab, engine, and possibly the transmission. Frame, axles, spindles, wheels, tires, brakes, everything else are MUCH bigger on a 550. If you park the two next to each other and compare, the difference is very obvious. Beefing a 250 to handle a 550's load is like beefing a Ranger to handle a 250's load.


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## cumminswithplow (Jan 30, 2004)

well said


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## oldmankent (Mar 2, 2001)

Yeah, F250-550 is not possible. A 250-350 is a little more reasonable, but the door sticker is still the door sticker and that is what matters to the law.


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## Dieselgeek (Dec 15, 2003)

I think what the majority of us are trying to say is either scale back your plans for you current truck, or continue with your plowing/salting plans with a larger truck...


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## PLANET (Nov 22, 2003)

My 350 weighs 10,000#, My 550 weighs 12,000# something gotta be different. :waving:


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

i'm taking all of your opinions into account. the equipment that im talking about here weighs appx five thousand lbs. i dont know how much the truck weighs, i can't find the number on the door. if the gvwr is nine thousand lbs and the equipment is five, does that mean if my truck is over four thousand lbs, i will be over my rating?


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## johntwist (Feb 10, 2004)

Take your protein pills and put your helmet on.....

Ground Con_troll_ to Major Tom.....
Commencing countdown, 
engines on

Check ignition
and may God's love be with you.......


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## The Boss (Oct 22, 2003)

Hey guys, I just ordered a Blizzard 810 for my Cutlass.


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## Dieselgeek (Dec 15, 2003)

To know what your truck will actually handle, top it off with fluids and all items you plan to carry while plowing, and head to the local truck stop. Weigh the front end, rear end, and entire truck. Take weight of front end, and subtract from front gawr, and thats how much weight you can legally have on the front end. Take the weight of the rear end and subtract from rear gawr, and thats what you can carry on the rear end. If you want to do it the easy way, just take the weight of the entire truck, and subtract from the gvwr on the door sticker, and that will tell you what you can haul.


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## cumminswithplow (Jan 30, 2004)

if you have 5000lbs of equipment dont waste your time on a 3/4 ton truck. Either buy what you need or utilize what you have by scaling thinsg back.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

i posted something in the ford forum about the suspension on the truck. it seems both of these threads are now talking about the same thing. i feel like i've been writing the same things over and over. so if any of you have had to read this stuff twice, i apologize. bear in mind you've all been helpful. here's what's still got my brain thinking:

the info that i found on differences in the 2 and 350 only includes the spacer blocks 2 - 4 inch and the tire size. that's it, that i've found. the spacer blocks allow the truck to sit higher, making the truck higher when under load. to me this means that the truck is under the same amount of strain either way. i read that the spacer blocks and tires allow ford to put a higher rating on the 350, making it a one ton truck. the 350 is more money. not much more but more. 

i feel that if i'm paying for heavier duty truck (350) that i should be getting it. if i keep the 250, i can put that extra 1000 dollars towards actually making the truck heavier duty. according to all of my figures, the 250 is borderline ok with the five thousand lbs. the 350 is definetly ok, according to fords ratings. if i put more springs on either, i'm without a doubt going to be ok with the weight, and in a safer truck. 

like i said, i already came home with the truck. i can take it back if i want. i'im sure they would welcome the extra money for the bigger truck. but, even though i am getting a lot of opposition here, when i look at the figures, both of these trucks seem to be able to handle this weight.


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## jeffwoehrle (Dec 23, 2003)

A 250 is pretty much the same truck as a 350, with the exception of the rear blocks. Bigger blocks are to make the truck sit more level under a load that would have the 250 squatting down.

Bottom line: Take your truck to a good spring shop. Have them beef up the springs as much as you can afford (including the overload springs in the rear). If you have E rated tires and are not loading it to the hilt and running it flat out on an interstate for 100 miles you should be fine. Your components will wear quickly (brakes, most noticably) and you will soon find out why they make 450's and 550's.

Tire weight ratings are designed for the rated load *at highway speeds*. Loading them well beyond their rating, while not good for the tire, will not necessarily result in immediate failure.

You will be asking your Ford to do far more than it was designed to do.

Many of us do that every day. That's why we drive Fords.


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## cumminswithplow (Jan 30, 2004)

According to fords website the max payload is 2930lbs. That with no fuel and no driver. You gotta take 400lbs off of that when u get the thing loaded. That brings you down to about 2500 lb payload capacity. You are asking for trouble if you overload it by double what Ford says it will hold. You don'tcare what we have to say. YOu are going to overload it and wear it out. Weight ratings are there for a reason. They are a guideline of what you should expect. I am in the same situation a little with my truck. So we have a dedicated sand truck. My truck is borderline being maxed with the plow and counter weight. Rather then overload it I choose to have a second beater truck. I can sand when I am all done with the plow truck. Just my .02.


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## outsidepride (Jan 24, 2005)

Does the truck not have 5000# in the front and 6000# axles in the back that 11000# total E rated tires will handle that no problem. Ford puts the weight rating lower so people dont have to register the truck commercially ,and also they have to warranty it for 3 years.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*Nuts!*

I used to build Chevy truck frames. The difference between a 1500 and 2500 were extra braces, jounce brackets, etc. Very minor differences, the frame rails themselves were also slightly different, they were approximately the same thickness though. With a 3500, the frame was completely different! The frame was about twice the thickness, not to mention all the parts that went on it. All in all, the three frames were different, for different load ratings. Why would chevy pay engineers to make three different frames if they could be beefed up to handle extra weight. As mentioned above, you WILL damage this truck over the long run. As to how long it will take, you will start damaging it the first time you overload it. Not to mention the safety factor. You have an accident with an overloaded truck and you will pay dearly, as mentioned above, no matter what springs you have on it. I don't care if you are going around the block, you are still breaking the law, and setting yourself up for a lawsuit. If you don't care about that, then just buy the 150 as it is cheaper, and you will be replacing the truck soon enough anyhow. Plus, if you take the 250 back, they should give you money back so you can use some of that to repair the 150 everytime it snows. Sorry for the last few lines as they were meant to be sarcastic. Not to mention if a DOT cop sees you, he will NOT hesitate to pull you over and issue an overweight ticket, which are quite pricey. They make them pricey to keep unsafe trucks off the road. If you are overloaded, you ARE UNSAFE. And why would you want to buy a brand new truck and turn it into a beater in the first year? Would be much cheaper to start with the beater in the first place.

You do have other options.

1) Use a trailer for your salter. Have buddies that do this, and they don't abuse the trucks by having a loaded salter in the back while plowing. Plus, you can keep the salt warm and dry til ready to use, if you have such a place to keep it. Tricky in a snow storm hauling it, but as long as you are slow and easy, you should be fine. (which is how you should drive anyhow with a trcuk maxxed to its weight limit.

2) Buy a bigger truck.

3) Keep the f-250 and buy a separate beater for just the salt, but if it breaks down? The reasoning behind #1, can just switch trucks with a trailer set up.

4) Do as planned and beat your BRAND NEW 30 k truck to make ??? Doing it this way will give you the chance to find out why they make different size trucks. You can then help us all by posting back here and tell us what the difference really is, or if Ford, and the law are wrong about this, and maybe save us all money. My bet is you will be coming back here soon enough telling us the difference.

Don't bring a knife to a gun fight!

My semi can weigh TOTAL 80,000 #s (plates). But the law only allows with the size trailer we pull 72000. I know I have had a total weight nearing 100,000 #s. This situation is where I can't readily tell what is going on cause I have to pay attention to my driving while being loaded (rotomilling). They would pay the ticket for overweight, but who do you think is ultimately responsible, and would do prison time, and be sued also. As a matter of fact, if this happens again, I will warn the guy on the mill that if it happens one more time, he will find himself traveling on that mill at a much higher speed than it is rated for. That is if he stays on at impact, at least he would deserve it. Or if I know right away, will dump it right in front of the machine so he can get more practice judging weight. He should like those options.

Be smart AND safe. Get the RIGHT truck for the job.

Jeff

PS. Please don't put my family, yours, or anyone else that shares the road with you at risk. How would you feel if your wife and children are killed by a guy trying to do something like you are proposing? Would it matter if he had extra springs but still couldn't stop cause of underrated brakes? Or if an axle broke? Make the smart decision, and take that truck back and spend the money now, instead of dealing with the stuff later down the road. Even if not your fault in an accident, and you are overloaded, then you are the one at fault, kind of like a DUI driver. I forgot to look where you are from, but I hope it isn't my area.

PSS I would not hesitate to call for above safety reasons if I saw a grossly overloaded truck driving down the road. I f he did kill or injure another, then I would have to live with, why didn't I call.! Is pure recklessness!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

outsidepride said:


> Does the truck not have 5000# in the front and 6000# axles in the back that 11000# total E rated tires will handle that no problem. Ford puts the weight rating lower so people dont have to register the truck commercially ,and also they have to warranty it for 3 years.


I really don't pay that much attention to GVW's on pickups so I don't know exactly, but I am quite sure that a 3/4 ton pickup does not have an 11K GVW. I could be mistaken on this, if so I apologize.

Why not take a Dakota or Ranger or S10 and do the same thing. The truck is cheaper, plates will be cheaper, insurance, etc. While you are at it, don't worry about the plates, registering a vehicle is overrated. And don't worry about paying taxes either, waaay overrated.

Snow White, if you have a 250 that is now a 550, why wouldn't you install an 8611 which is rated for a 550?

In MI, even a 3/4 ton that is pulling a trailer is required to have an Elected GVW plate. Not sure about the rest of the country.


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## jeffwoehrle (Dec 23, 2003)

Peopleeater said:


> Jeff
> 
> PS. Please don't put my family, yours, or anyone else that shares the road with you at risk. How would you feel if your wife and children are killed by a guy trying to do something like you are proposing? Would it matter if he had extra springs but still couldn't stop cause of underrated brakes? Or if an axle broke? Make the smart decision, and take that truck back and spend the money now, instead of dealing with the stuff later down the road. Even if not your fault in an accident, and you are overloaded, then you are the one at fault, kind of like a DUI driver. I forgot to look where you are from, but I hope it isn't my area.
> 
> PSS I would not hesitate to call for above safety reasons if I saw a grossly overloaded truck driving down the road. I f he did kill or injure another, then I would have to live with, why didn't I call.! Is pure recklessness!


I'm in NEPA, and you are in IL. Feel safer already, eh?

Let's look at the original post. He proposed a total "additional" weight of 4600 pounds. Above what a 250 is rated for? Yes. More than the truck can do? No. An overweight vehicle is compromised in two major ways, handling and stopping. Proper tires and beefier springs can easily compensate for even 6600 pounds "additional." Stopping can be addressed through careful driving and avoiding full speeds. Note my disclaimer of interstate driving in my post.

If the original poster was planning on doing local plowing on a small, local route there would be little hazard in his plan.

Is it the best plan of action? Probably not. However not everyone has limitless resources with which to implement their plans. His proposal certainly isn't "reckless" as it was written.

I stand by my post.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jeffwoehrle said:


> I stand by my post.


 But I bet you wouldn't stand in front of it.

The original post says a fully loaded salter, 8' salters are usually rated at 1.8 yds of salt which equals approx 3,600#. And we all know that we have good intentions of not overloading our trucks, but in a storm, time is of the essence and just a little more salt won't hurt anybody right? I can get 1 or 2 more customers salted with that extra salt. No problem, my route is tight.

Now let's say every plower does drive cautiously during a storm (see above comment about time being short), what about every other joe blow out on the road, I trust my driving, it's the other idiots that I don't trust. Or how about the drunk that is driving and blows the light in front of your overloaded truck. Guess what, even though he is drunk, you will still get nailed for being overloaded when they check.

We used to overload our salt trucks all the time. Then we realized the extra money we were spending fixing these trucks from being overloaded, the liablility we were incurring and decided to do the things the legal way.

If you can't afford the right size truck, sub it to someone until you can. How difficult is that. We already have enough liability in this industry, why add more? Your insurance company will run away from you when they find out what you are doing. They will have to pay the claim, but you probably won't be able to affordably insure your company for years.

Why do we think it's OK to break some laws, but not others? Why do we pay taxes, we probably won't get caught for awhile. Why not steal someones license plate or make your own, you'll be able to get by for awhile? Why not rob a bank, it's easier than plowing or working for a living? What I am saying is, either do it right the first time or don't do it. You wouldn't suggest to someone to not pay taxes or not register their truck, so why are you saying it's OK to break this law?

I think we are trying to raise the level of professionalism of this industry and to do that we need to follow and obey as many of the laws and regulations that we are able to. Not that it is easy, but we have to make an effort.


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## jeffwoehrle (Dec 23, 2003)

Mark Oomkes said:


> But I bet you wouldn't stand in front of it.


Clever. But let's not confuse our issues.

That issue is: Will the truck handle it? Unless I didn't read the post correctly, there was no mention of legality. If we want to travel that road, if speed limits max out at 70, why will the truck do 90?

There are more than a few drivers I know whom I wouldn't trust with an EMPTY Superduty, much less one loaded over its legal limit. Driving ability and experience has as much to do with this as springs, Timbrens or airbags. Come to think of it, why are those products available? And legal...

I've read plenty of preaching along the lines of, "what if YOUR kids were in its path..." Etc. Please. We are supposedly all adults here, let's avoid the scary monster tactics and deal with the issue as presented: Will the truck handle the not-outlandish amount of weight he proposes?

Short answer: Yes. Will he like the way it handles it? Probably not, but who knows? He may do just fine.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Fine, let's not confuse it. Can my truck do 175 MPH on the highway unloaded with a few mods?

Maybe it can do 90 because there is no speed limit during daylight hours in Montana, just keep it reasonable.

The guy asked for advice. He was given advice on what is possible _and_ what is legal. It's possible to mount a plow on a bike, too, but do we recommend it? Anything is possible with enough money, but that doesn't mean we recommend it.

Are we trying to raise the professionalism and appearence of the industry or not? If this guy got in an accident and killed someone because he was overloaded, I guarantee there would be an outcry from this board about the bad name he was giving snowplowers, how could he be so stupid, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Look at a couple months ago the guy from Buffalo who got shafted by the local news and how everybody here jumped his butt for being a crook and then we heard the other side of the story--some customers didn't understand 3" trigger depth. You don't think that would happen?

Besides, the guy changed the thread. If you look at the title, he wanted to change his truck into a 550, not a 350. Now after realizing that was impossible, he's looking at making it a 350, which would still make it overloaded if he did everything he wanted with it, that is legally overloaded.


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## gpin (Dec 5, 2003)

I live in suburban Phila. Let me know where you are with this truck next winter so I don't have to become part of the statistic. 

Why bother posting? You are convinced it's ok to overload the living daylights out of an F250. No one is posting this information to be a PITA. There are years of experience on this board offering you help. There are safety issues with overloading a vehicle. If you ignore them you are going to incurr increased repair costs. You are going to void your warranty. These are your issues. The issue of public safety is a public issue. Granted it is relatively unlikely you will kill anyone. Why increase any risk for yourself or others?

Good luck.


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*overloading truck*

What is good about this type of media is if there is an issue that someone thinks about they can post it. Legal issues are very real and written to be confusing so the attorney can make his money. This thread covered just about all of the issues I could think about. Legal, moral and mechanical issues that overloading can cause have been addressed.

Engineering has changed over the past years. I think the new definition of engineering is we can take such precise measurements on so many things we can make this truck have a higher profit margin and not have many issues in the warranty period.

We saw the results of an over loaded 1 ton this winter. Both rear wheels broke off the truck. Yes both left and right sides let go. Truck had cheater boards on it and was over loaded with salt. I bet the owner got a real quick lesson on truck loading.

In closing a good saying to remember and have a laugh with. If you put lipstick on a pig you still have a pig. If you beef up a 250 in the laws eyes that truck is still a 250. I am not bashing ford trucks. I own one of them F450, nice rig.

Dave


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

i took the f250 back yesterday. i have a 350 super duty chassis cab. that is different than a 350 super duty cab. this has a longer wheel base and a higher gvwr. it has ten leaf springs per side in the rear, compared to the f250/350 super duty cabs, which have six. this has the suspension on it that i would have put on the truck i just returned. i also got a good deal on this, which was part of the reason for the trade. the other part is that this already had the reading utility body that the bed was going to be swapped for. i took back the 250, paid an extra three grand and got a 350 super duty chassis cab, with the reading box. couldn't pass that up.

so you all know though, i have copies of all of the specifications for the 05 f series2-450. i couldn't find them on the net and i had the dealer copy about sixty pages from their book. the only difference listed in the 250/350 super duty cabs for suspension, are those spacer blocks. the leaf springs are the same. same ones, same amount. they even have both trucks listed on the same page, with all of the specs. even the brakes are the same. according to this, the 350 can handle all of my equipment, the 250 can not. why is this? bigger tires and spacer blocks? that's the only difference. bunch of bologna. i still stand by my original idea to beef up the suspension in the 250 to accomodate my needs. it actually would be a safer truck then sticking with the 350 super duty, which was already rated to handle my equipment.

i've talked to a lot of people in the past week trying to set myself straight on which truck to buy. i've talked to people that have been in the business for over thirty years. all of them told me taht they see people doing what i was asking, every day. it would seem, realistically that i could have put this setup on the f250 and would not have had any problems. if i didn't get such a good deal on this truck i traded for, that's what i would have done. 

as i've said before i really do appreciate all of your comments/help. but i do feel that got a lot more of a fatherly response, than a practical one. i feel taht if i was sitting down next to a few of you when asking this question that i may have gotten something like, "oh, you'll probably be fine, i see people doing that everywhere". i think it's easy to be part of the opposition when posting on a forum. the amount of weight here wasn't overboard by some absurd amount, if it was over at all. the difference in gvwr between the 250/350, model for model, on average is about 1500 lbs. all of this because of some spacer blocks, and tires? this was my original problem, that both of these trucks were capable of handling this load. also, i believe that many of the members on this forum have and will continue to drive slightly overloaded and be fine. 

gpin, i don't understand waht you mean with the statistic comment. i don't consider this overloading the living daylights out of an f250, when you look at the actual suspension, and not just the rating.

still, thank you all for your help.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

I find it hard to believe that the F250SD and the F350SD chassis cab are spacer blocks. I bet the frame rails are build differently, different brakes, different drive-line components(the chassis cab has to have DRW???), etc. In todays day of high tech engineering, truck are build to meet the published specifications, and rarely can take the abuse of being overloaded on a regular basis. Some of the older trucks MIGHT have been able to handle extra weight, but with the dollar suck a driving force in truck today, I do not see Ford or any other manufacture using heavier components, and down rating them as much as you seem to think they do. The cost difference between the two will be small compared to the increased maintenance cost of overloading a truck on a regular basis. Put a F450/550 next to a F250/350, and I am sure many differences will pop out.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

as i've mentioned, i have the exact spec sheet, right here. i was in just as much disbelief as you were when i found out.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

fredhedd, I see people doing it every day as well. And they are the ones that if I have the opportunity, I will turn them into DOT. They can abide by the same rules that I have to abide by--and pay for it just like I do. I consider them to be lowballers. They are not doing their best to run their business in accordance with the laws and regulations, they are probably trying to get by without insurance or paying taxes as well. 

I do my best to follow the laws and regulations that I have been (over)burdened with. I would give you the same advice if you were my worst competition or my son, from 1 foot away to 1,000 miles away. Do it right the first time. This will sound like your parents but, just because a lot of people do it every day doesn't make it right. I will not knowingly tell somebody to break the law just because I see it every day. I am speaking from experience, we overloaded 1 ton trucks for years before we decided that it wasn't worth the money to keep fixing them because of overloading. Thank God we never had an accident while this happened.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

Ok, here is JMO

Stop guessing and thinking.

Take your truck to a scale and weight it with you and all of what may be in the truck, full tank of fuel ECT. Weight the front and weigh the back and weigh the whole thing. Now its time to do some calculation. Remeber science class and all those fun talks about levers? Think of your axels as fulcrums in a big lever. If you put weight reight over the center of the axel it will put what ever weight right on that fulcrum(axel) if you put weight on either side of the fulcrum it start moving the weight forward or back of the truck. When plow guys run "ballast" they try to get it behind the rear wheels. This uses the rear tires like a fulcrum and actually pulls weight off the front end. Ok, you have a 1000# plow hanging 3' in front of your front axel, now place a salter loaded with material in your bed, over 1/2 of it is going to be in front of your rear tire actually adding weight to the front end! Take a 50# object and hold it at your chest, take that same object and hold it straight out in front of you. I am going to garantee that you will be illegal and more than likely your tires will also be way over thier limit.

Does the 250 use DANA 60's up front?

It may be a better idea to run a plow truck and a salt truck. You are much more efficient that way. MUCH MORE EFFICIENT! MUCH MORE EFFICIENT! And you arnt covering your truck in as much salt.

What can be done and what people do and what is a good idea are 2 different things. Most guys on this site are into doing things the right way and not 1/2 assing things and flying by the seat of thier pants hoping for sucess. Thats why you are getting the kinds of responses you are. If you want to do just enough to get by and hope for the best then go for it. More than likely you will be ok. I just do like to roll the dice........


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## gpin (Dec 5, 2003)

The statistic I am refering to is that if you overload a vehicle, sooner or later there is going to be a problem.

I have been doing commercial snow removal for over twenty years and used to use alot of subs. Ten years ago I paid to attend a snow removal show / seminar in Wisconsin. One speaker detailed accidents involving plow vehicles and salt trucks. 70% of the vehicles were overloaded and 90% of the drivers reported that they had been working for more than ten hours straight. 90% of the overloaded vehicles did not have commercial insurance.

The point of the seminar was if you push the limits you will have losses and those losses can extend to other people not involved in your business. I took this seminar to heart and changed my business. I raised my prices, bought heavier equipment and did less business per vehicle. I plan for 4 - 6 hrs per vehicle in an average 2-4" event. I can handle the bigger events with relative ease when they occur. I have a separate salt truck as stated above. The salt truck is delivered to the largest site, before the storm to minimize risks. We handle the smaller sites with broadcast spreaders if there is a lag with the salt truck. Yes its a PITA, but no one ever had a broadcast spreader slide into the ditch and get stuck.

I make more money now than I did before when I worked ridiculous hours with inadaequate and "CHEAPER" equipment. I now have high end clients who understand the value of the best snow removal. They pay for the quality of my work and reliablity. They are confident that their lots and walks will be cleared during an event if needed, and the end of the event and before work starts. Their primary motivation is to reduce the probablity of a slip and fall. If I have a 12 or 15 hr schedule per vehicle, some of my clients are not done in a timely manner.

It's not fatherly advice. It is business. It's about not repeating mistakes made by most snow removal contractors. If you do your job to the best of your ability using equipment suited for the task or better, you lower your losses in terms of damaged equipment, accidents and other negative issues. Yes you have to put out more $ upfront but you make more in the long run.

Good luck. It appears you have the determination. Learn from our mistakes and get a jump on the learning curve and make more $ sooner, that is what this is all about. I wish you a profitable and incident free 05/06 season.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

gpin, sounds like if that seminar hit home for me like it did for you, i would feel a little differently. sometimes that's what it takes. not that i am for overloading my truck in the first place, but maybe i would be a little more strict about it. like i said, i have the 350 now with a gvwr of 10,400. the truck weighs 5700 or so. this is the truck for the job. all of your comments have been taken into consideration. thnx for your time. 

frozen, just so ya know - the super duty chassis cab doesn't have to be a drw. they make it in a single, which is the one i have. this particular 350 is different than the super duty 350. this one is heavier, longer and actually has ten leaf springs instead of six. sorry to keep opposing but the superduty f series 250/350 are the same truck. same brakes, same drive components, same frame. seems weird though, don't it? you would think that a truck with a higher gvwr would have a heavier duty suspension. i don't mind that too much now being that i have a heavier suspension. another funny thing is the salesmen at the dealer didn't know this. they all also assumed that the springs were heavier, blah blah. i asked for their spec book and we all found out differently. we all also went out to the trucks and cked them out. something tells me though that they won't be telling the other customers that.


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## cumminswithplow (Jan 30, 2004)

We wont be driving it all that much. I was just curious what it would do. The one we started looking at sold before I could get it. Now we are trying to decide between a powerjoke excursion and a durango. Thanks for you time guys.


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## oldmankent (Mar 2, 2001)

So do you now have a single rear wheel F350 chassis cab, or a Dual rear Wheel F350 chassis cab? Big difference between those two trucks.


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## cumminswithplow (Jan 30, 2004)

somehow my last comment got posted in the wrong topic...should have been herehttp://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?p=213491#post213491


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

gpin said:


> The statistic I am refering to is that if you overload a vehicle, sooner or later there is going to be a problem.
> 
> I have been doing commercial snow removal for over twenty years and used to use alot of subs. Ten years ago I paid to attend a snow removal show / seminar in Wisconsin. One speaker detailed accidents involving plow vehicles and salt trucks. 70% of the vehicles were overloaded and 90% of the drivers reported that they had been working for more than ten hours straight. 90% of the overloaded vehicles did not have commercial insurance.
> 
> ...


Oh come on gpin, I see it everyday. You are blowing this way out of proportion. It really doesn't matter what anybody, even the manufacturer says about GVW's. Lighten up, would ya?

Sarcasm off now.  Absolutely right on the money. Well said and I agree with you 100%. That was the point I was trying to make, but you did a much better job than I did. I'm sure it won't sink in for some, but hopefully a few will take it to heart.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

fredhedd said:


> like i said, i have the 350 now with a gvwr of 10,400. the truck weighs 5700 or so.





> The original post says a fully loaded salter, 8' salters are usually rated at 1.8 yds of salt which equals approx 3,600#.


Truck: 5700
Plow: 1200 (blizzard 810)
Spreader: 800
Driver: 175
Fuel: 250 (diesel 7lbs per gallon)
Tools in u/box: 500
Salt: 3600
Misc other: 200
------------------------
total 12425
GVWR 10400
-----------------------
difference 2025 lbs

.


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## QMVA (Oct 9, 2003)

Hold on I think your salt weight is wrong. I read that 1 yard of SAND is 2000lb and salt doesn't weigh as much as sand so you may want to re figure that. Of course I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I read that some where on this site.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

I don't want to harp on an already dead subject. I may not have time to answer all that I need to as I just finished doing my SCREWED UP taxes, and am really ready to go to bed. Very cranky to, so this isn't sugar coated, and I apologize. No offense meant. I could word differently, or creatively as I usually tey to do, BUT ...

The statistic that was referred to is killing or injuring, (which i think was taken from my post). You have an accident, and kill OR injure someone, you are gonna wish you were legal, GUARANTEED. You will be sued, and possibly face time. When you knowingly or willfully, or do it with no idea, same outcome. Ignorance is no excuse for the law. Ever hear that before? The example with the DUI may be borderline, as neither should be on the road, so don't know there, but if they run a red light,etc., it's on you.

Can't even think clearly.

Second, I USED TO BUILD GM FRAMES, AND THERE WAS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ALL THREE. Granted that they were GM, but one of the big three. Look at frame thickness, the brackets the springs themselves mount to (springhangers), Jounce brackets (i can remember what they do, but kind of forgetful right now), shock brackets. Not the things that attach to the frame. The frame itself is different somehow, whether in shape, size, thickness, something IS different. I have 2 buddies, one built GM frames with me (350), and one runs a pizza place (250). The pizza guy claims they are different. I have not looked at the Fords, but find it hard to believe that there is not ONE SINGLE difference. 

Third, I am a 32 year old semi driver. I have to deal with weight limits everyday. My limit is 1 ton (2000 lbs)overweight. Any more, and the law stiffens up. I make 70/hr all summer long. I can afford to pay the ticket, but don't want to. The only reason I run it is because it is (not right though) I will get blcaklisted from working certain places (not legal or right to do), but gotta be able to go on all jobs. I know what will happen. I sweat bullets all the way to the route. I only run heavy if (taking a big chance) I think there is no cops, or won't run in busy area, or some reasoning. 
I know it isn't right for me to do, and tell you to do the other. If I kill or injure someone, I am SCREWED. As I saw somewhere, maybe in this thread, that they will reload you and weigh you. Why would they do that? Cause if overloaded, you were likely cause of accident. This is very careless, and have decided just now that 1 ton is too many, they can pay me 70/hr to drive in the quarry all day long, I don't care. Besides, I am giving it up at end of season. Too much liability. Does that tell you something? If I go to prison, I am going to make it worth it, and it won't be related to work.

My truck will handle 100,000 lbs, 72000 is legal for me. But if I add more leafs, springs, etc., maybe I can get 120,000? I can make out on those tonnage runs! Plus, I should get more work seeing how they can just call one truck instead of 2?!! 

If Ford's 250 and 350 are the same, then why buy Ford? If someone is passing off something that isn't, and want me to buy it, they better explain, or i am not buying it. I wonder if a 350 single axle is the same as a 350 dually?

Ok, I know you bought the 350 now, and I for one am happy for you, as you DID THE RIGHT THING. You would have developed a problem with overloading 250 compared to correct max load on 350.

Fourth, I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU THE EXACT SAME THING IF I WAS HOLDING YOUR HAND. You can drive to my house and i'll still tell you that. I don't have the time to drive to yours, to tell you there. 

Ifnoone else cares about the GVW, the law does, and they care about axle weight, too. They will check each and every one. They have portables where one pad goes under each tire, then drive on to it. They can even check for each tire, but don't know if there is a law there. 

I apologize for the post. It is not meant to offend, but ..........

I gotta go to bed and apologize to wife for being a D%#& today! I apologized to you already.


Jeff

PS. I already know this post isn't good, so don't take it personally. Just take the message out of it. Like I said, I am in the worst mood that I have been in cause I went back to work, and I get to deal with other truckers, that drive 25 hrs straight, overload to make extra 5 bucks a trip, while I try to run legal beagle. (well, try is key word)

I think I should have deleted this and tried tomorrow, but to tired now to do any more but hit submit. I apologize to EVERYONE who reads this.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

frozen, come one now. where did you get those figures? those numbers are not correct. 

the blizzard 810 plow weighs 900 lbs.
the salt spreader weighs 560 empty.
my tools that can and probably will be taken out of the truck may at worst weigh 500 lbs. 
who said this was a diesel? i'm not sure how much gas weighs but i'm sure it's close. say your original 250 anyhow
me 175
i'm curious to know what 200 lbs of miscellaneous stuff would be, i'm not going to count that.
the salt spreader has a 1.5 cubic yard rating. this part is the only thing i'm not sure about but i feel strongly that it is not 3600 lbs full. i think back to this season when i unloaded pallets upon pallets of salt. each pallet weighed a ton and a quarter. they looked like they would just about fill the salter. we're gonna keep that at a conservative 3000.

this puts me roughly at eleven thousand lbs. i'm ok with that. the gvwr is 10,400. when i load the truck up and see how it performs i can make the decision to take more weight off if necessary. tools can come out easily, the salter can be almost full instead of heaping, if it indeed weighs more than three thousand lbs. i stand by my original statement that this is the truck for the job. i appreciate your input, but i also appreciate reality.

btw, i'm very happy with this truck. if anyone is thinking about buying one, it's highly recommended. the reading box is very nice. it comes with the lock system on the key fob, that operates the locks on all of the boxes with one button. all of the doors shut nice and have adjustments. it had a spray on bed liner from the factory that looks very nice. very nice truck. 

hey people eater. honestly, i hope the two trucks are different. i dont like to stand behind something that doesn't make sense to even me. as i've mentioned though, i have these incredibly detailed spec sheets from ford. i can't see any other differences here. i've went over this information. it was very important to me before buying this current truck. if you find something please let us all know because i've assured many people that those two differences are the only ones. if you do find something new be sure to get crystal clear verification, as i've already spoken to numerous people who assured me of incorrect things. i'm just stating the information that is available to me, through ford.

also, since you brought it up and i have the info here:

the f250/350 super duty srw front axles are exactly the same, as rated

4850 - 4x2 6000 4x4

250 rear axle 6200
350 rear axle 7280

the super duty chassis cabs are exactly the same as the super duty cabs with the exception of the rear gawr being 9750 for the dually.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

QMVA said:


> Hold on I think your salt weight is wrong. I read that 1 yard of SAND is 2000lb and salt doesn't weigh as much as sand so you may want to re figure that. Of course I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I read that some where on this site.


Sand is usually around 2200# per yard. Salt is anywhere between 1800# (dry) and 2200#(very wet). Obviously if you are using bags, you should be OK.

What brand of spreader are you using fredhedd? Most 8 ft V-boxes that I know of are 1.8 yds capacity struck.


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## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

I think I heard once "right tool for the job"

Anyone who thinks otherwise is just trying to justify what they did/do.

Push something to the max and it will break. Push a superduty to 11,000lbs and watch your wheel bearings, ball joints and lots of other things go fast.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

>>> the blizzard 810 plow weighs 900 lbs.

Checked this again... did not notice that it said "complete" normally plow specs are just the plow... can someone who has one verify that this is the COMPLETE plow... (i.e. light frame, pump, etc...)


>>> the salt spreader weighs 560 empty.

I was going by Western's 8' spreader weight is 800lbs according to their web page..

>>> my tools that can and probably will be taken out of the truck may at worst weigh 500 lbs. 

Why have the utility box if you have to remove the tools??? 

>>> who said this was a diesel? i'm not sure how much gas weighs but i'm sure it's close. say your original 250 anyhow 

Diesel weight ~7lbs per gallon Gas ~ 6lbs per gallon so say 215 lbs

>>> i'm curious to know what 200 lbs of miscellaneous stuff would be, i'm not going to count that.

Spare parts, extra hydro fluid, fuel in the spreader, tow chain, shovels, etc....stuff adds up quickly

>>> the salt spreader has a 1.5 cubic yard rating. this part is the only thing i'm not sure about but i feel strongly that it is not 3600 lbs full. i think back to this season when i unloaded pallets upon pallets of salt. each pallet weighed a ton and a quarter. they looked like they would just about fill the salter. we're gonna keep that at a conservative 3000.

again going by Westerns spreader... carries 2.0 struck, ~2.5 rounded (web page info)


I think my estimations are quite good approximations...not exact, but very close approximations... You WILL be close to if not over your weight limit when fully loaded... I do not know when you get that heavy the truck WILL handle much differently even if under the GVWR... I would rather have some head room than be as close as you are going to be.. just a personal preference....there is not a worse feeling that that brake fade as you are trying to stop quickly....


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

What do they say about trying to teach a pig to sing?


Bottom line is YOU WILL NOT BE LEGAL! I garantee at least your FAWR will be over. But you have your mind made up, it dosnt bother you, go for it!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If nothing else, look at the number of people that have told you to do it legally vs illegally.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*Il*

Just glad I am in Illinois and not PA! I am sure the same thing happens everywhere, but I KNOW it is gonna happen there.

Jeff

Oh, and next season, during and after the season, let us know how it is doing. I am just curious how long, if loaded at that weight, it will last. We will then have verifiable stats on the issue. I may jsut swing by the dealer tomorrow as the semi just broke again.


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## crashz (Jan 12, 2004)

I drove a truck this winter that had a loaded 8 ft stainless V box. Wet heavy sand/ salt mix. Had a 7.5 ft Fisher too. It is a light duty (read heavy half ton) 3/4 ton Chevy. Wallows like a dying pig around corners, has no pushing power (but plenty of traction!), brakes are virtually useless, on is 100th transmission and is rusting/falling apart. 


All weight related issues aside, if you like your truck and tool bed combo, why ruin it with salt? Your tools and the tool bed will be ruined in two years. No amount of washing will save it. Do yourself the favor and get a cheap 1 ton 2wd and throw the V box on that. When that rusts away, get another.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

*SD Ford Spec Sheet....*

These sheets reflect different number than what you gave....

http://www.fordf150.net/specs/05sd_specs.pdf


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

hey mark. the salter is a sno way. it's a 1.5 cubic yard. the figures you posted and the figures that snow way just told me are about the same. that spreader full to the brim with rock salt isn't going to top 3000 lbs. a more appropriate figure would be about 2700-2800.

chtucker, are you sure about that? i know of several super duty trucks with a gvwr of well over 11,000 lbs. you may be thinking of some of the smaller ones.

frozen, if you already found the info that said 900 lbs complete ( it's actually 950. i'm assuming you got that from the blizzard site) why would u need another opinion? i don't want this thread turning into one of those threads where some of us are making trying to be right their primary concern. some of the comments, though, make me feel that it could easily turn into that. the tools, if necessary would be removed because of the extra weight. i think that could be considered a good thing, no matter what your gvwr, if you are planning on plowing for a few days. i know for sure i'm not roofing or putting up gutters (my job) in the snow. also, which numbers are different with your sheet? there is a lot of info there. it looks like it's about ten pages long. i have about one hundred pages, just on those vehicles. i'm interested to know what's different. if you want any of this info that i have, let me know. 

after finding more precise numbers and adding them up, again, for the last time, i come up with 10,700 (still full of 500 lbs worth of tools). the gvwr is 10,400. that's a difference of only 300 lbs. most of the weight is the salt. lucky for me i don't have to drive far with it full as my route is local. so yes, legally i will be over. this truck will only be used for plowing for a few months out of the year. i think that snowfall for this year that just passed was 25". a little lower than average. out of those few months the spreader will only be maxed out when it has to be, and only until i start dumping salt. i'm not going to shy away from my max gvwr. i bought the truck for the rating. this truck is no doubt rated much lower on the sticker than it is actually capable of. i'm sure i could drive around with an extra thousand lbs past the rating and be fine. in my case though, a few hundred lbs over, for a little bit at a time, a small number of days out of the year, when i'm already being extra careful due to the snow, i'm very much alright with. with my particular situation, i don't think there is a concern for the truck. i think if anything it would be about safety. i know that i'm a safe driver. it's a new truck, built tough, right? seriously though, taking all of these things into consideration, i've made up my mind. all of your comments have been appreciated and have helped influence my decision. before the start of this thread i had a truck with a gvwr or roughly 9000 lbs. i took taht back and got the one i have now. 

ratlover are you sure i'd be over my fawr. it is 5200 lbs. it has the snowplow package. btw, do you really love rats? if so , i'd be interested to hear why.

crashz, another truck just for salting does sound nice. unfortunately right now i don't think that's right for my situation. i do have this very nice, thick, spray on bedliner, though. i wonder how that will fare with the salt. do you have any idea? also, you mentioned something about my tools being ruined. they will all be in the utility box, on the side. i'm not sure if you are saying that they will be affected by the salt or not, even though they will not be in direct contact with it. let me know.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

Well, as for the rats, I believe that is a chevy (gm) thing. I could be worng, but I believe that is waht it refers to.? I am sure he will answer ya though.

As for the weight, if you are only 300 lbs over, and have an accident, .......

I don't really care what you do. If you overload, and you are sure you and everyone else on the road (they are the ones to worry about, see it everyday). Anyone ever try to race a semi to a red light to get in front of him? If so, I would seriously reconsider this practice. (sorry pet peeve).

Honestly, I hope you make out just fine, no accidents, no breakdowns, etc. All the guys here are giving the opinion you asked for. When asking for opinions, you gotta also accept the fact that people will not agree, and will let you know. I am glad you moved up to the 350 though, as this will be better than the 250. If they are identical, then why would they even bother with different badging, etc that goes with having 2 trucks with same ratings? Why wouldn't they just cut out the 350 all together, and promote the 250 as being so good that they don't need to make a 350? If they cut one of them, the line would be more efficient, thus reducing overhead and increasing profit. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

Jeff

I wanna convert my semi into a helicoptor. This way, when it rains, I can still work, plus it'll save wear and tear on my truck from the off roading we do all day long. It would also pay big on those tonnage runs. Also, the time in the quarry should be less as I can just pass all the other guys and jump over the edge and be first to get loaded! 

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I have had a long week, and today was even longer.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

hey peopleeater. about the upgrade... the 250/350 super duty cabs have the same springs, everywhere, model for model. the only difference is the spacer blocks in the rear, one has 2" the othehr 4", and the tire sizes are slightly different. the spacer blocks allow the truck to sit 2" higher when under load. by law, this allows ford to give the truck an appx 1,000 lb higher gvwr. the truck i purchased is a super duty chassis cab. there are some differences in the suspension between a super duty cab and a super duty chassis cab. i won't list them all here but one of the most important, and persuasive ones is the difference in the amount of leaf springs in the rear. one has 6, the other (mine) has ten. the chassis cab models are slightly beefier, in some areas. however, this is really interesting, the front brakes that are used in my srw 350 (with a gvwr of 10,400) are the same exact front brakes used in a 350 crewcab diesel (with a gvwr of 11,500). that's jsut the front brakes. the rear brakes in my truck are the same exact ones used in the crewcab diesel. the crewcab diesel's gvwr is 13,000 lbs. my point, if you don't know already, the brakes in my truck are hardly under any strain. even if my truck is ever 'overloaded' these brakes still will not see the strain put on them by the heaviest trucks they were designed for, the crewcab diesels. since i'm on the subject, i think it should be known that according to ford the same wheel bearings are used for the chassis cabs for models 350/450/550. the 550 drw diesel is rated at 17,950. guess what that means? my wheel bearings are rated at 17,950. i could do this all night. there is more but i will leave it at that. i'm hardly saying that all of these trucks are exactly the same everywhere, but in some major areas they share the same components.

on this thread i've said many times how much i appreciate everyones opinions. i've said it so much that i hope it's not getting annoying. however, there have been a few posts warning me that if i beefed up my original truck that i'm going to see other things like my brakes and wheel bearings go. while this makes sense at first, after actually finding out about these parts of the truck, this is not the case. i'm saying this because i think it would be better if information was presented as 'real', only by someone who knows, for a fact, that what they are saying is true. i don't want this to sound like i'm bashing anyone. i'm not. i came here for help, and i got it. but, in the midst of getting it, i was told many pieces of incorrect info, and was kinda given a little **** for it. i'm not mad in any sense. while this info was thought to be true at the time, it wasn't. i'm glad it happened because it drove me to spend hours finding out for myself, for sure and now i know. opinions are opinions, but telling someone information that isn't true, is not helpful.

on the whole, this thread has turned out very productive. i've learned a lot. hopefully with some of the information i've found out about, others have learned some too. i'm now in a safer truck. and now i know that the word 'rat', is somehow associated with gm.

good luck with your semicopter. maybe you could pick my truck up with it and take me to each supermarket parking lot that i have to plow next season. this way i won't have to fill the tank all of the way and with 200 lbs less gas in the truck, i just might not be overloaded after all. 

for fun ... http://plowsite.com/showthread.php?p=213633#post213633


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## cumminswithplow (Jan 30, 2004)

Im not 100% for sure. I think Rat refers to the big block Gm Motors.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

Yes the reference is twards the big block chevy.

Read my first post again about how your truck acts like a lever. When you fill ha popper full of salt(or even just partialy) it will also add to the weight over your front end! If you go and weight your truck and it comes out to having X amount of pounds available before your over your FAWR you can just say "well I weighed my truck and I have X pounds available and X plow weights 100#'s (or what ever it is) less than that so I'm OK" You are placing a plow that weights X way out in front of you axel! Hold a 50# object next to your chest, now hold it at arms lenght! Same 50#'s but it sure dosnt feel like it does it? 

It may work but I am willing to bet you will be illegal! The likely hood of it biting you in the ass is small and if you are willing to risk it then thats your decision.

Running seperate salting and plwing trucks IMO is the way to go. You are much more efficent that way. And you can have a crappy blade on your salt rig to be a backup or put your spreader on your new truck(yes you will be illegal probably but in a pinch.....) There are may reasons why IMO its better to run a seperate rig for salting and for plowing. Even if you have to pay someone 15-20$ an hour to drive it for you. 

For smaller stuff hitch spreaders although a PITA can work. Plus they take weight off your front end not add to it! 

I dont really know what your acounts are but the way you talk about the hours you will spend straight in a truck it sounds like you have ALOT of work lined up and may have bitten off a big bite. It sounds like you have enough work to justify a seperate salt/back up if need be rig. JMO

Edit: I *believe* the 350 uses the same 60 that the 550 uses.....although my pops other 550 is a 2000 its 60 is about 1/2 worn out, tierods pitman ect are all replaced and or shot. Just becasue its a 550 dont make it bullet proof. He runs a 10' boss on that one. Heck the dana 60 was used in 1 ton chevys back in the day.....


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*Lever*

When you add the plow, like ratlover said, it is way out front and acts like a lever. While the plow weight woon't change, common sense tells me that it will make the front axle heavier by more than just the weight of the plow. It will act like a lever and when you add weight to the rear, it will add some of that weight (more so than w/o plow) to the front axle.

It would be interesting to find out if that is exactly what happens, or if I am off base on that one.

On the spec sheet above, I saw minor differences between 250/350 and the 450/550's. It doesn't show thickness of frame or its components, and doesn't even list them. I saww the vacuum assist vs hydroboost assist. I also saw the mexico vehicles can load more. I wonder if the mexico thing is cause they care little down there. I know that the mexican rigs being in our country is a safety thing, so they are allowed only so far accross the border. They wanted free roam.

You asked us, and we gave out opinion. Our opinion doesn't agree with what you wanted, so the arguement started. You refute our points, and we yours. We aren't personaly attacking anyone. We are giving advice, and don't want to give you the wrong advice. We don't wanna say take the 250 and make it a 550, so when something happens, you hate us, or give this place a bad name.

I will check the differeences, although that is going to be quite a while as I am very busy and don't have enough time to do my own things. But, when I do, I will post back. Probably later in the summer.

Jeff


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

If you care about weather a certian set up will be over your FAWR go weigh your truck front back ect and call up blizzard and give them that info and ask them if you can run thier blade without ballast. They should be able to tell you if you have to run ballast and if so how much(ballast is weight behind the rear tires) I believe that if you were to use a fisher V(simmilar in weight) you would be boarder line of being able to not need any ballast. Now tell them You want to run a V box with X weight in front of the rear axel and X weight behind the rear axel. Even if you figure, I have an 8' box that weighs 4k total, 25% will be behind the rear axel so that leaves me 1000 behind and 3k in front(just an example). If you care if you will be legal DONT GUESS!!!! If you dont care if your over then thats your choice and its your rodeo. Fisher can tel you this info I know, they have a worksheet for it. I would assume blizzard can and will do the same.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

. .


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

rat.....still, what does the 'rat' stand for?

also, thnx for your input on the fawr. i'm going to take it into account and as soon as this truck is fully outfitted i'm going to a weigh station. i'll let you all know how it turns out. 

peopleeater, there are differences in the 250/350 gvwr and maybe in the fawr, and rawr, but i assure you that the springs are the same. i sat here for about two hours with all of these pages anda highliter and made sure. there will be differences in the 450/550. there will also be differences between a 250 super duty cab and a 350 super duty chassis cab. if anyone is actualy going to take time and look at those sheets provided in the link, be careful. there are many pages missing and some of that information could easily be misunderstood without it. 

also, i don't feel that there was any argument started. i think this was a friendly, informative discussion. this forum has actually been much better than most others, in the respect that this could have easily turned into an argument. it's refreshing to be around some mature people. i didn't refute any points that i didn't know about for sure. i did my research and for the benefit of everyone, including myself, i posted it here. however, i had some of mine refuted by people that didn't know for sure. this doesn't matter now, and i don't care at all. 

thnx again.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

Mouse=small block chevy
Rat=Big block chevy

IMO if you know you want a blizzard I would get it, weigh your truck with it on and then decide on the V box. That would suck to buy a V box and find out later you were over if that was something that mattered to you. An 8611 is going to be way to heavy IMO.

It really makes you much more productive to run seperate salting/plowing rigs. You could get an older 2wd dualy and run that and be fine and have a old blade for it if you ran into probs with your new truck or blade. That would probably be the route I took.......


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## snow white (Aug 18, 2003)

suspension beefed the same ,of course the rearend is lighter .one is a dually with 19.5 tires and in no way do i feel or think it will hold the same load or ford will only build one model. i own 4 - f-250, and a f450 and a f550 and yes the leafsprings are all the same except for the f450 in whih i put a four leaf overload setup........and the frame of course is half as thick.


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## snow white (Aug 18, 2003)

cet said:


> SNOW WHITE
> 
> Do you mean your front axle is the same as a 550 or your entire truck. If it is the entire truck your are saying you can put 5 tons in the box. I not sure if they make a set of tires to handle that load on a SRW. I have had 4 tons in my 3500HD and it has 19.5" tires and she was maxed out.


leaf springs only,,,,,,of course i know the difference i own a few of these trucks


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## gpin (Dec 5, 2003)

The 2nd advantage of a separate salt truck is money. Mo Money, Mo money, Mo money. You can effectively hire someone to spread salt. It's hard to "beat" a salt truck the way my Jim Rockford employees can beat a plow truck.


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## fredhedd (Mar 25, 2005)

hey rat, could you give me more info on why running a seperate salt truck would be more effecient? (aside from ahving all of that weight on one truck) it's something i would think more about if i knew how it would be beneficial. right now all i see it as is that i would have to buy another truck, pay for a driver, gas, and fix that truck when it breaks down. i haven't had any probloems using one truck for the same job so far, but if there is an easier way, i would like to know.

snow white, i'm not sure what you are saying.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

For a BU/salt truck it dosnt need to be anything fancy. A mid 80's 2wd dualy would work. 

Ok......first it sounds like you have quite a few acounts. Your salt truck could be rigged as a back up in a pinch.(even have a contingency plan, have another contractor you can call so your stuff gets serviced if something happens) 

Salt spreader hurts visibility and makes life a PITA driving at times. Enough balast to get the job done without overly taking the truck. You can be salting independantly from your plowing actions. If you want to presalt an area while you are plowing, if you have a customer that calls and wants a slick spot taken care of, when the salt truck runs outa material and is headed to the shop and getting loaded, your blade is still down making money! It seems midway through the storm or afterwards for us anyway our darn salt trucks are doing nothing more than trying to put out fires so to speak. Hitting slick spots or customer call ins. You can have your salt route and have it set up efficintly and your plow route set up independantly. Plowing is what makes the money generally. Anything you can do to keep your blade on thr ground and not doing something else is a good thing. Without spending time trying to do both you will be able to take on more plowing customers. Also sometimes a splash of salt will appease people and make it a bit more safe untill you can get an area plowed or cleaned up. Also if you have sidewalks or the like your salt driver can kinda take cer of hotspots and call ins ect. 

You can run a 1 truck show but IMO you wll be much more efficient paying someone 20$ an hour loaded and having the extra truck and insurance ect(fuel ussage will be the same, you are still going to be covering the same distance and operations regardless)

Also let an old truck get beat to piss and covered in salt! 

You can leave the salter in the bed of the BU all the time. You can also keep it in the garage(not getting wet) while you are out doing your thing. Tarps are a PITA to deal with. Duno what your exact sit is for storage of trucks, material, and what other things you have to drive and all that BS....


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## Lynch & Sons Landscapin (Sep 5, 2006)

*Load*

Well... The gas motor will be fine.. Mine is an '06 F350 5.4 and works fine.. Mind you I have a tailgate salter, but I still have 2400lbs (pallet) of salt in the back and another 800lbs of Ice-Melt, a Boss 8.2V on the front, + occasionally a trailer with a quad behind it... It is working with the trailer, and surely is no race car without it... but It is ok... I'm overloaded by 2000lbs.. But I get my salt a very short distance from my commercial... Anyways, it stops alright, but not fantastic with those loads.... be careful and try to buy salt where your going to burn it... Don't go on 40 mile trecks loaded...

btw: Whoever said that you dont have plow prep because the front isn't 6000lbs is incorrect.. The heavy motors (Diesels for sure, v-10's not sure) get 6000lb springs.. the 5.4s get 5200....


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

what would a good plow be for a 07 250 sd with same wieght rating


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

yeah! good luck with that! Your going to kill that truck within a year I bet. If you dont blow out the tires then the axles will be next.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

iceyman;383583 said:


> what would a good plow be for a 07 250 sd with same wieght rating


What are you plowing and how much plowing do you perform?


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

will be commercial and hopefuly alot of use


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