# Immediate Help Requested



## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

ALRIGHT FOLKS HERES THE GAME

66 home neighborhood
1.7 miles of road (standard 2 lane)
just plowing, no salt, no sidewalks/walkways

large drives, would normally charge $40-45 per drive
wants an estimate BY MONDAY for 2-5", 5-8", and 8+"
I asked for a ballpark figure of what they'd been paying but they wouldnt say

Heres what Im thinkin: (feedback please)
2 or 3 trucks, probably take 6 hours max?
Charge $25 or $30 per house.... total = $1650 or $1980, respectively
PLUS how much for the roads? 

help, please =(
i want this job!


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

You say yourself, you don't even know what you're getting into.

I'd stay FAR away from this job.

You've got prices from $25-30 / house. Is that 2-5"? Is that 5-8"?? What??

That alone is approx. $300 / push difference.

How long does it take you to drive 1.7 miles @ 15mph? At 10 mph? How wide is the road?? How many passes down the road are you going to have to do with what size plows you're going to be using??

Are you going to wing it all to one side, then plow all the driveways? Or are you going to plow all the driveways and then plow the road so you don't have any snow humps at the end of the driveways?

Do you have to get all the way to the house, so you have to shovel the first foot or so in front of the garage? Or do you just need to get the driveway done?

How long are the driveways? Are they a standard "2 car wide", "3 car deep", flat driveway? Or are they on an incline?

How much do you want to "NET" / hour? How much are YOUR costs / hour?

You've got alot of work to do BY MONDAY.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I sent you a Private Message.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

Im going to have to agree with Lwnmwrman22, you have alot of things to figure out yet, also its hard for us to judge being we can't see it.


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

LwnmwrMan22 said:


> I'd stay FAR away from this job.


Haha, one way or another I'm going for this job
I was called last week and have already looked the place over 3 times.
If they dont take my bid, their loss.. I already told the guy to his face I'd bust my a** to get the neighborhood cleared (not quite the same wording)

anyway.. i need your help so I dont loose the bid. It's not a matter of me not being able to handle it. I am fully capable. I just dont know how to price it mate!


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

Epic Lawn Care said:


> Im going to have to agree with Lwnmwrman22, you have alot of things to figure out yet, also its hard for us to judge being we can't see it.


Well I gave you all the info.... here it is again

If there were 66 houses in a row, which most companies would charge $40-45 to clear, how much would you charge per house if you could clear *ALL 66* at THE SAME TIME

add in 1.7 miles of 2 lane road and there ya go, draw a picture


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

bigjeeping said:


> Haha, one way or another I'm going for this job
> I was called last week and have already looked the place over 3 times.
> If they dont take my bid, their loss.. I already told the guy to his face I'd bust my a** to get the neighborhood cleared (not quite the same wording)
> 
> anyway.. i need your help so I dont loose the bid. It's not a matter of me not being able to handle it. I am fully capable. I just dont know how to price it mate!


I like the way you think


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

All right this is how I would do it, many may disagree but this is how I would do it

At 25.00 


2"-5" 25.00 Per driveway TOTAL = 1650.00
5"-8" 40.00 Per driveway TOTAL = 2640.00
8"+ 5.50$ per inch TOTAL (12= $4356.00) 

At 30.00

2"-5" 30.00 Per driveway TOTAL = 1980.00
5"-8" 48.00 Per driveway TOTAL = 3168.00
8' 6.50 per Inch TOTAL (12" = $5148.00)

The privet road I cant really help you with  . I really think this would be good for you. There is alot of money to be made here. It's really going to come down to how badly you want this job. This is going to go alot faster than you think 66 driveways on one street! You have know travel time. Once you get down a pattern you will be knocking these out real fast. A back plow might be something I would look into. From what I can tell no sidewalks. You drive up set down the plow, pull it out (repeat process if needed  ) drive 10 feet and do the next  . I bet you could do this in less than 6 hours with one truck. Yet I would rather bust in there with to trucks and be out in three. Think about it 6 hours divided by 66 gives you almost 5.5 minuets a drive. There is no way it will take you that long. GET THIS ACCOUNT  There is alot of money to be made here at 25.00 per driveway (Depending on how much work you do and how much you shell out on labor)
an 2 inch snow grosses 1650.00 on driveways alone that 275.00 per hour!! You are out of your mind if you don't bid on this. In fact I would bid at 24 per driveway. 25 is a very standard number this will get you right below them. Don't lose this over a buck, there is too much money to be made here.

Best of luck for you, let me know I i can help.

- Eric


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

I used to have 34 estate driveways in one subdivision. It would take me 4 hours for a 3-5" snowfall.
Give us an example of the size of one driveway.
I also did a golf course road. .6 miles long plus a circle at the end and around a maintenance shed. This would take 20 minutes. I did the road in 4 passes with an 8' Western. The road might take 6 passes. I would say 30 minutes max.

The driveways might be hard on the electrical system. No driving to recharge fully. Make sure you have good batteries and alternator.


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

here's a couple pics I found on the net of a house in the neighborhood. Most have those large arch drives withh 2 entrances. They are LARGE archs, you'll have to imagine it yourself since the pics arent complete


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

nother...........


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

When I mail in the bid what format should I use for the price?

i.e.

$1784

or

$24 per house (66 houses) + $200 for roads = $1784

obviously it would look fancier, but you get the idea...


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

bigjeeping said:


> here's a couple pics I found on the net of a house in the neighborhood. Most have those large arch drives withh 2 entrances. They are LARGE archs, you'll have to imagine it yourself since the pics arent complete


There's no way I'd do that driveway for $25 / time.

You'll have to wing it away from the house, which is the inside of the curve. You can't just whip around the drive letting everything to the outside.

Are you going to mark all these driveways so you don't tear up the grass?

You're looking at probably 10-15 marking sticks / drive to do a decent job.

Even at .50 / stick, you're looking at a $300 investment.

What are you going to do with the snow if it piles up on the inside of the arch?? At the "pivot" point? Are you responsible for plowing it back? Or is that extra?

I'm really NOT trying to discourage you about this job, just trying to point out everything that should probably be taken into consideration.


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

Thhe guy I've been talkin too is really laid back. He expects us to start working within a few hours of the END of the snowfall, and doesnt care if we cant get in too close to the garage doors.

All of the residents are responsible for marking their drives... even if they werent, whats dropping $300 when I will be taking $10,000+ of their money if it snows more than 5 times!


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Why did the last guy quit / get fired?

Make ABSOLUTELY sure you have it in your agreement that you're not responsible for ANY turf / sprinkler head damage come spring time if you're not the one marking drives.

If it were me, I'd try to get an extra $500 and tell him that you'll mark the drives.

The biggest problem is, this guy might be laid back, but the other 65 homeowners might not be.

You've got the chance to tear up THEIR property, not this guy's house that you're talking to.

You could eat up that $10k real fast if people start chasing you down for fixing sod and sprinkler heads, if for no other reason than time next summer when you'll be trying to get other stuff started up after the season.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

No need to make this difficult. Start from the house end. With 4wd, he'd be able to get there. If there's a concern about packing snow with tires, pretreat with treated salt, but shouldn't really be a problem anyway. I'd say max of four stakes each side. At about .45 each that's $3.60 each drive.

Actually, you want to think about getting a Urethane edge for those drives and you likely wouldn't need to worry about salting to get to the surface.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Not to throw a wrench into the equation, and I realize this is a larger account to do this... but I'd also quote the guy a bid on a flat fee.

If it's an association for the houses, and this guy's the president or whatever, you might be able to sell him a flat monthly fee.

Take your $1750 / push, multiply it by 18, add another $3,000 to cover a real large storm, then divide by 6, for November, December, January, February, March and April payment.

You'd have about $34,500 for the year. Round it up to $6,000 / month.

Some months you'll win out, you'll only plow one time, but other months you'll plow 10-11 times.

You'll have some more work to do, google "winter snowfall totals" for the nearest city you're by, and you should get records from each year where they'll list the inch total / storm. This way you can go back 10-15 years and see how many storms on average you had, plus how many large "8+" you had and figure numbers from there.

They may like that better, they can have a set budget, plus you know that check for $6k is coming in, and you can pay your sub / employee drivers to just sit around, not worry that they're not going to be able to help you because they had to go get another job if it doesn't snow.


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

good idea.. but he specified he wants rates for 2-5, 5-8, and 8+, so I'm assuming they've been doing it per push for years.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

bigjeeping said:


> good idea.. but he specified he wants rates for 2-5, 5-8, and 8+, so I'm assuming they've been doing it per push for years.


Correct, but they may have never had a bid the other way before either. It doesn't hurt to submit one. You're also assuming that the guy is going to be laid back when the snow starts falling too...


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

bigjeeping said:


> here's a couple pics I found on the net of a house in the neighborhood. Most have those large arch drives withh 2 entrances. They are LARGE archs, you'll have to imagine it yourself since the pics arent complete


Sorry about my pricing I was under the assumption this was the size of the driveway (standard by me) 
I had know idea they were such giants 

Good luck,
-Eric


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

no one really helped me with this pior question so here it is again.....

When I mail in the bid what format should I use for the price?

i.e.

$1784

or

$24 per house (66 houses) + $200 for roads = $1784

obviously it would look fancier, but you get the idea.... Should I use one number or break it down to per house + roads


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

2-5” 
$1784.00	

5-8”
$2854.00	

8”+
$3139.00 + $392.00 per additional inch above 8

I think this is it!! gotta put it in tmr morning... ill be punching numbers all night long. What do YOU think? wwjd?


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## firstclasslawn (Sep 5, 2005)

*Lets be honest*

Lets be honest boys, who is going to plow that road at 10 or 15 mph.....Maybe if its dirt. You go that slow and your going to have huge piles on the sides by the third snow.......Try 30....its a great speed......also, i think that your time is quite a bit high....i belive you said 3 trucks for 6 hours.... With good equiptment i think that you could easily do the drivways alone in 4 with one truck! then add the road....done....As for clearing driveways, use a backblade with downpressure to scrape them clean!


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## pbeering (Jan 13, 2003)

Check for a Private message on point.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

I would still like to know why they're looking for new bids.

IMO, I'd round the numbers off, so it's:

$1800

$3000

$3200 + $400 / add'l inch.

I looks cleaner, not as complicated.

People don't go home thinking, was that $1784, or was it $1487?

I don't know, it's just me.


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## Killswitch (Aug 9, 2005)

Agreed. Round off your numbers BJK, and the prices sound good and reasonable to me but I know for a fact those subdivision deals are always lowballed.

Good Luck!


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Killswitch said:


> I know for a fact those subdivision deals are always lowballed.
> 
> Good Luck!


You got that right. We bid one years ago and they went with the guy who's bid was 1/2 of ours. Needless to say, they called again the following year for the same bid. What happened to last year's guy? They got out of the snow business. Sorry, not interested.

Another mgmt co called about a large condo complex. Same thing, went with the low (ultra low) bidder. Next season it was a different guy.

It seems it's all about being the lowest bidder. I'm not interested in being the lowest bidder.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

It's Monday, did you get your numbers in Big??


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

Bid is in, dropped off a sealed envelope Mon morn.
Should I just wait for a call? Or is there any further action you recommend I should take?
Im saying my prayers tonight!


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

I would call tomorrow and say " Hi this is bigjeeping, with bigjeeping snowplow company , calling to see if you received my proposal and wanted to ask you if you had any questions?" 

You would be amazed how often they never actually got it, or have questions that they need clarified.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

I agree, about calling, but not today or tomorrow. You COULD call and ask something like "I dropped a bid off for snowplowing, but I forgot to ask when the meeting was going to be to discuss it".

That way you could know when they actually go over the bids. It doesn't do much good to keep calling everyday "did I get it? did I get it??".


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## firstclasslawn (Sep 5, 2005)

*Dont Call Yet*

Give them til later in the week, then follow up and just say "this is _______ from ______ snowplow, i was jsut calling to see if you have any questions on your plowing quote for this season!"


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

Ill give him a call next tuesday, thanks for all the help folks!


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC (Dec 13, 2002)

Call them ASAP and ask if they have any questions while it is still fresh in there minds....i have submited dozens of proposals like this and its what i always do.....its just letting them know that you are interested in there business and that you are going to maintain a great deal of customer service even after the sale.....

that would be a killer contract to have.....as a couple stated before i belive that some of the time ammounts are way over estimated...once a driver gets in a rythme he will be able to knock those drives out in no time...and as long as there are no cars in the road then that will be the most enjoyable plowing experiance a driver will ever have..

Pray is all you can do at this point.


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

I'll tell you man I am really hopeing you get this lot


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Five Star Lawn Care LLC said:


> Call them ASAP and ask if they have any questions while it is still fresh in there minds....i have submited dozens of proposals like this and its what i always do.....its just letting them know that you are interested in there business and that you are going to maintain a great deal of customer service even after the sale.....
> 
> that would be a killer contract to have.....as a couple stated before i belive that some of the time ammounts are way over estimated...once a driver gets in a rythme he will be able to knock those drives out in no time...and *as long as there are no cars in the road* then that will be the most enjoyable plowing experiance a driver will ever have..
> 
> Pray is all you can do at this point.


*As long as there are no cars in the driveways*.... again, you can NEVER over-estimate your time.

I know, I know... no reason to bring this up now, bid is in. But this was why I was talking about going 15 mph. I'd rather figure slow and be able to plow fast, rather than figure fast and have to plow slow.


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC (Dec 13, 2002)

LwnmwrMan22 said:


> *As long as there are no cars in the driveways*.... again, you can NEVER over-estimate your time.
> 
> I know, I know... no reason to bring this up now, bid is in. But this was why I was talking about going 15 mph. I'd rather figure slow and be able to plow fast, rather than figure fast and have to plow slow.


YES YOU CAN OVER ESTMATE YOUR TIME.......when you are in a competative bidding process like he was in over estimating your time by 3 truck/hours would be in my books over estimating the job by about $375 a push and when you are up aganst contractors that do this kind of work all the time and know spefically how long it will take them then you have a problem....

over bidding a contract of this size by $375 a push would surely result in you not reciving the contract....HOA's are after the lowest price

SO AGAIN...YOU CAN OVER ESTIMATE YOUR TIME


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Five Star Lawn Care LLC said:


> YES YOU CAN OVER ESTMATE YOUR TIME.......when you are in a competative bidding process like he was in over estimating your time by 3 truck/hours would be in my books over estimating the job by about $375 a push and when you are up aganst contractors that do this kind of work all the time and know spefically how long it will take them then you have a problem....
> 
> over bidding a contract of this size by $375 a push would surely result in you not reciving the contract....HOA's are after the lowest price
> 
> SO AGAIN...YOU CAN OVER ESTIMATE YOUR TIME


I agree, but if you drive through this area, either during the day when everyone's at work, or at night, and there are no cars around, and you say to yourself, gee, piece of cake, no cars, each driveway 5 minutes tops, then you come back to plow and there's cars parked up and down the road, or there's a car in each driveway, where you're plowing up one side, then having to come in from the other side and plow that side out, then come back at a later time when the car has been moved, now you're talking 10 minutes / drive which is double of what you had planned on.

Just another reason why I don't do HOA's anymore. You try to be as fairly priced as possible to get the job, then there's always someone in the way, someone that doesn't like the job you're doing so they stop you while you're trying to get the job done, trying to tell you how / where to push the snow after you've been up for 20+ hours.....


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## DBL (Aug 27, 2005)

As long as you carry no liability with this account ebcause theres no salt and more chance of slips and falls this seems like a straight shot i cant come up with a price but just plowing no salting would be easy


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

Well did you get it?


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

NO WORD YET?

Tommorrow it will be one week so Im going to give him a call.. not quite sure what to say and Ill probably feel pretty dumb b/c I dont like wasting rich folk's time! Probably just ask if he has any questions, then ramble off about the wolverines or something


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

Well folks, today is a sad day

Didnt get the job....

the guy who did get it got it because he was $300 cheaper, and "has better equipment for driveways which can move around easier" - referring to two bobcats.

How are bobcats better for clearing drives?

oh the humanity............................


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

You said why they are better...

"which can move around easier"

but that seems like a lot of driveways to do with just bobcats... maybe they are going to use a couple of bobcats and one truck...If I remember correctly the driveways had limited space for snow piles

Don't worry.. there are going to be other contracts...


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

Frozen001 said:


> You said why they are better...
> 
> "which can move around easier"


Im sorry what I meant was these driveways are HUGE and dont bobcats just have little push boxes on them? I would figure it would take nearly double the time than a 8' plow


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC (Dec 13, 2002)

What they probably have is a skidsteer with an 8-10' angle blade and b/c of the increased mobility they can clear the drives twice as fast...

they probably run the truck through the road first then take the bobcat on the outer radius of the curved drive (with the blade angled towards the road )from one side of the road then on the other end of the drive they stop just sort of the road (being careful to not get any in the road) then raise the boom and drive over the pile and go back to where you started and push the inner raduis again towards the road and stop just short of the road...lift up and drive over the pile the push your pile onto the sides of the drive and clean-up the small mess they left in the road.

then the next snow just start on the oppisite end so you dont creat a unmanageable pile.....a v-plow on a skidsteer would be perfect for this


doing this with a skidsteer with a push box would be very un-productive


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

In my town, 1/2 the guys plow with skid-steers or compact tractors.

If you put an 8-10' blade on either, you can move alot of snow fast, especially with about a 50 hp tractor, plus they go down the road at 15-20 mph so you can cruise around town fairly quick.

If you had 2 trucks, each pulling 2 skidsteers to that location, you'd be surprised how fast they'd clean those driveways out with the skidsteers.


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## P_Lo (Oct 6, 2005)

I had a similar customer when I lived in WV. The homeowners association just wanted the road done, no driveways were included (but some were picked up on the side with the individual homeowner).

It was 2 miles of road end to end...up hill, down hill and turns. I would make the clearing in 3 passes. I charged them $585 for the road and a 1/2 rate for subsequent pushes for the same storm. 

Keep in mind this pricong was in the mid 90's so adjust for inflation, fuel, lkabor and equipment accordingly.

Hope this helps.

Patrick


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## daveintoledo (Oct 5, 2005)

*hey bigjeep...*

still like to buy you that beer someday.... your ok man... dont worry about it , it wasnt ment to be , but youll get the next one...

you got a great attitude , youll do fine....:salute:


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

daveintoledo said:


> still like to buy you that beer someday.... your ok man... dont worry about it , it wasnt ment to be , but youll get the next one...
> 
> you got a great attitude , youll do fine....:salute:


pm me if you're ever coming through Ann Arbor... im too busy right now to even think about leaving my zipcode, let alone the city


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## hickslawns (Dec 18, 2004)

Nice try Big Jeeping. There will be others. You are only 19 according to the bottom slogan. What an early age we all learn about rejection. Keep plugging away, as that one was not meant to be. Yes, the bobcats can plow circles around a truck in tight quarters. We use a truck plow modified on our 773 with cab/heat. It is smokin' fast on tight lots. I can load/unload and plow faster than I can swing in with a truck/blade on many accounts. In an area as described with entire neighborhoods getting plowed this would be nice. 

$300 bucks? Almost sounds like the guy had an inside track, or maybe a better sales pitch? Maybe looked older and they short-changed you based on your age? I dunno. People are funny. Biggest thing is you need to deliver and build a name for yourself. At your age, the last thing you want is to develop a reputation as someone doing less than quality work. Since you are building at a young age, you have plenty of time to grow a strong and loyal customer base which will stay with you for many years if you take care of them. 
By the way, GO BUCKS! I don't let my kids say the "M" word  , or look at the wolverines at the zoo! lol I guess maybe it's an Ohio thing.


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