# low ballers



## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

LOW BALLERS we gotta love em their new like we were at one time,they learn fast or they wont survive let em try but be ready to capitalize when they quit"


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

*Low Ballers How They Make The Pro S Look Good*



cincy snowdog said:


> LOW BALLERS we gotta love em their new like we were at one time,they learn fast or they wont survive let em try but be ready to capitalize when they quit"


 LET EM BURY THEIRSELVES


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## Kentuckydiesel (Dec 12, 2005)

You were so excited that you quoted yourself to get a second reply????    -Phillip


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

yeh you could say that no loballing here though this modern tech comp mumbo jumbo,just give me something to tearup :redbounce


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

when you are the SNOWDOG you can do as you please


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

no kydiesel actually new to the site not sure what i am doing with this site yet but i guarantee we can outplow your hillbilly [email protected]# !


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

cincy snowdog said:


> no kydiesel actually new to the site not sure what i am doing with this site yet but i guarantee we can outplow your hillbilly [email protected]# !


Now that is real prefessional....


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

and dont you forget it 
ten years + we earned it, just new to site and ky ready to critize our actions here


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## Sweetpete (Jul 11, 2005)

Now I remember why I don't visit south of Columbus.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

Frozen001 said:


> Now that is real prefessional....


Now I know why tigers eat their young....


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

Epic sent you a PM


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Kentuckydiesel said:


> You were so excited that you quoted yourself to get a second reply????    -Phillip


Kids often are excitable....lol
And at 37 yrs old you would think diffrently....
why are you posting to your self? 
so you have a Little experience with snow!! O.k add some thing to the forum. 
and the low baller thing well.. you know..
Well, snowy dog for you the scenery will never change as you are not the lead DOG!!!:waving:


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## douglasl330 (Oct 4, 2005)

Nicely put Snofarmer! Do you think he's following his own tail? Kind like his posts!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kentuckydiesel (Dec 12, 2005)

cincy snowdog said:


> no kydiesel actually new to the site not sure what i am doing with this site yet but i guarantee we can outplow your hillbilly [email protected]# !


Okay.  

I'm sure you can, don't recall challanging you to a plowing competition though.

As far as hillbilly goes, I believe you would know more about that than I would. I'm a horseman, hillbillies are out east in appalachia, and looks like in the Buckeye state too. 
-Phillip


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

O ya, well....My dad can beat up your dad. WTF


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

hey epic no not realy like that i was stating a few things here and old horsehead he was the teacher for the day and started rambling because i hit quote and not reply,he wanted some attention i guess.he was mad i made a qoute i guess .must be a lo baller. hey tell your dad watch it i heard his uncle daddy a tough guy.:yow!: 




owwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

Umm, ok......


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

cincy snowdog said:


> hey epic no not realy like that i was stating a few things here and old horsehead he was the teacher for the day and started rambling because i hit quote and not reply,he wanted some attention i guess.he was mad i made a qoute i guess .must be a lo baller. hey tell your dad watch it i heard his uncle daddy a tough guy.:yow!:
> 
> owwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww


was that English ?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

nekos said:


> was that English ?


 lol, Having read some of snow pups posts, I will never say any thing about 
Ole Jim's writings again...
I just dunno!!! what is wrong with him....


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

maybe he had too much ritalin when he was a kid....purplebou :redbounce :bluebounc :yow!:


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## Lux Lawn (Jan 5, 2004)

cincy snowdog said:


> no kydiesel actually new to the site not sure what i am doing with this site yet but i guarantee we can outplow your hillbilly [email protected]# !


New to the site...Well thats not the best way to make friends here I can tell you that.

Low ballers,sure their everywhere we all hate what they do.Just wait for them to screw up,and they will then watch their customers coming running to you.


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## DeereFarmer (Dec 12, 2005)

Picked up a driveway today from a lady. Funny story... first lowballer's truck brok down the night before a storm (yeah I doubt he even had a truck ) and then the second lowballer raised his price $10 inbetween storms "due to the change in gas prices." Ha, all I have seen is prices stay the same or go down. They will allways screw up at some point. I am new at this, but I did all my lowballing when I was plowing with my lawnmower!


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## Kentuckydiesel (Dec 12, 2005)

First Time Out said:


> I did all my lowballing when I was plowing with my lawnmower!


Damn, you'd have to pay me double to plow with a lawnmower. I've got a cub cadet in the barn with a plow on it from my great grandfather. It retired it's plow the day my grandfather showed up in his brand new '84 F250 4x4 6.9 diesel with a brand new western plow. That dang truck is still plowing the lots at my grandfather's factory and doing farm work. -Phillip


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## addicted (Dec 13, 2005)

Hey guys- Ive been plowing for about 3 years, but just recently found this site. I have started picking up on the lingo, but can someone define a "Lowballer" In detail for me. I'm afraid i might be one!
Thanks


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## Foxfire (Sep 25, 2003)

*Lowballer*

A low baller is a skank, Low life, under minding, cut throat,scum, trash.....Need I say more ???


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## Guy (Sep 13, 2004)

I plow for friends and neighbors, price is none of your concern....
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm


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## VAhighwayman (Dec 7, 2005)

Foxfire said:


> A low baller is a skank, Low life, under minding, cut throat,scum, trash.....Need I say more ???


Nicely Put!!! Couldn't Of Said It Better!!


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## DeereFarmer (Dec 12, 2005)

Kentuckydiesel said:


> Damn, you'd have to pay me double to plow with a lawnmower. I've got a cub cadet in the barn with a plow on it from my great grandfather. It retired it's plow the day my grandfather showed up in his brand new '84 F250 4x4 6.9 diesel with a brand new western plow. That dang truck is still plowing the lots at my grandfather's factory and doing farm work. -Phillip


Well, it was all I could plow with since I was not old enough to drive yet. It did fairly well. I plowed my 175'+ driveway and three neighbor's driveways. Never had any problems except blowing out the transmission three times. By the last time, those transmission changes were getting pretty fast! I would sell it to you if you wanted to buy it! I only charged $15 each... what was I thinking?payup


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## addicted (Dec 13, 2005)

Foxfire said:


> A low baller is a skank, Low life, under minding, cut throat,scum, trash.....Need I say more ???


That's nice. I have about 15 driveways and 2 parking lots. I get out of the truck and do the walkways too. I also do a better job than ANY of the "pro's" around here. When those are done i go door to door. I see some of the "Pro's" out in the street talking ship about me but i don't care. They sure as hell aren't getting out of that truck, or have the initiative to do so. As far as i am concerned, i am fulfilling a niche.

I have low overhead, and since i don't rely on my plowing income for much more than truck expenses and beer, i don't feel the need to charge exorbitant amounts of money for my service.

So, can someone give me a definition of lowballer, or can i just assume that it is simply a word you guys throw at anyone who does a better job for a better price than you, and ends up taking some of your accounts?


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

addicted said:


> That's nice. I have about 15 driveways and 2 parking lots. I get out of the truck and do the walkways too. I also do a better job than ANY of the "pro's" around here. When those are done i go door to door. I see some of the "Pro's" out in the street talking ship about me but i don't care. They sure as hell aren't getting out of that truck, or have the initiative to do so. As far as i am concerned, i am fulfilling a niche.
> 
> I have low overhead, and since i don't rely on my plowing income for much more than truck expenses and beer, i don't feel the need to charge exorbitant amounts of money for my service.
> 
> So, can someone give me a definition of lowballer, or can i just assume that it is simply a word you guys throw at anyone who does a better job for a better price than you, and ends up taking some of your accounts?


Lowballer is used to describe people who underbid a job. These are always the guys who do not carry general liability insurance, do not pay taxes on the money they make... which is why they can charge so little for their services. These are the guys who will do a 2 car wide driveway that is 100' long for $10... just so they can buy beer.... hmmm sound familiar???


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## RayGauthier (Nov 13, 2004)

*Lowballer*

I don't like lowballer but when I started I didn't know that to charge so I look into it and came to this site to see what people charge and charge the same but nobody will say "anything" so what I am getting at is haw does a guy or girl getting into snow removal know what to charge with out calling some plow guy to come and see their driveway and asking him !!
Everybody has to start someplace maybe they don't know maybe they have no overhead yet !!
I am not a lowballer but when someone asks what they should charge tell them in a ball park what it costs and everyone will be happy.
If we all got together on price charging was the same across the board and someone after startes lowballing then yes feel free the cut them up but till then new guy's will enter and don't know yet. I would hate to is some guy with a new truck and plow burn because he's lowballing and didn't know it .
Everybody has to eat!!!!!!!!!!
payup  lowballer


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## addicted (Dec 13, 2005)

Frozen001 said:


> Lowballer is used to describe people who underbid a job. These are always the guys who do not carry general liability insurance, do not pay taxes on the money they make... which is why they can charge so little for their services. These are the guys who will do a 2 car wide driveway that is 100' long for $10... just so they can buy beer.... hmmm sound familiar???


Well, i actually have a customer witha drive like that and he pays $60 with the walks. My cheapest acct is $30. Insurance is something that i am currently looking into after reading alot of the posts on this site. Cash is cash. I pay enough taxes at my regular job!

It seems as though i am an intermediate lowballer. I have no problem with that. I am learning alot from you guys and appreciate the fact that you are being honest. Keep the good stuff coming, but please cut the flaming crap.

Sounds like all you guys want to start a union of some kind. Please do! That way i can have all your accounts!


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

addicted said:


> Well, i actually have a customer witha drive like that and he pays $60 with the walks. My cheapest acct is $30. Insurance is something that i am currently looking into after reading alot of the posts on this site. Cash is cash. I pay enough taxes at my regular job!
> 
> It seems as though i am an intermediate lowballer. I have no problem with that. I am learning alot from you guys and appreciate the fact that you are being honest. Keep the good stuff coming, but please cut the flaming crap.
> 
> Sounds like all you guys want to start a union of some kind. Please do! That way i can have all your accounts!


You pay enough taxes at you regular job??????
you need to pay taxes on your low balling jobs too:waving: low-baller
You need to talk to some you that knows some thing about business before you find your self sitting across the table from the TAX MAN- IRS.
you need insurance.
And as for the union crap:angry: I do belong to a union the city, county and state workers union. In most states all of your city state and county plow drivers are Union members. so watch your self as we do not like SCABS!!:waving: 
As for over head if your over head is low you will make more money, so do not cut your self short as it takes more money that you think to make a living at snow removal. How do you get money to cover your expenses and pay the rest of your bills and be able to save a little? Not by low balling..

People support there families doing this and when some one comes along and low balls it takes food out of all of our mouths.....


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## RayGauthier (Nov 13, 2004)

I am happy I don't realy have to deal with this in my area (that I know of ) I talk all the time with other plowers have coffee and shot the sh*t with them.
Lowballers seem to think that we are rolling in it and they want a peace of the action and get rich off the back of hard workers.


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## addicted (Dec 13, 2005)

Guess i hit a nerve with sno farmer!

Oh well, Unions are outdated, and in my opinion they are the biggest problem with our economy right now. There is no need for them, and they only serve to cultivate greed and laziness. The unions are the reason that our auto and airline industries are all nosediving, and all of our jobs are going overseas. Unions were started in a time when they were needed. Now we have all the essential laws in place to protect our workers, pay them properly and treat them fairly. All a union can do these days is collect dues and haggle for more money. It makes me sick! I don't know if any of you have been watching the Transit strike in NYC on TV, but it is about nothing more than greed! 

This is a free county with a free market economy. If i can provide a better service for a lower cost, i am going to be the one with the customers. And as far as paying my other bills, i have a regular 8-5 job at an engineering company. Plowing is just extra spending money for me. I do not feel that i am taking money or food away from anyone. I bust my ass to be as successful as i am and i deserve it. Quite the opposite of a typical union mentality which is essentially,"I showed up today, i am going to do the ****tiest job that i can get away with, and then go and complain that i am not getting paid enough!"


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

As long as you are running a profitable and properly ran biz you cant be lowballing. There is a difference between a 1 man operation taking the time and learning the ins and outs of the buisness and a low baller. Problem is to run a biz properly does require a fair amount of overhead. Like was mentioned insurance is the big killer for us. Also a buissness should be ran to not just break even or to get some beer moey.....if you run it this way your profitability is based on luck not running a good buisness. You should be putting away $$$ to grow your biz or atleast keep it afloat if there is a proble(no snow and you are still needing to pay insurance ect) or you break something or its just time to upgrade your truck and blade you have been running. Running a good biz also means having a back up plan to make sure your customers always get serviced(if that means another truck or a deal with another contractor) and not leaving thier service up to the luck that you will be able to take care of them. Also dodging the tax man is also not only illigal but its also pretty wreckless in terms of running a good biz. Doing stuff under the table is onceagan leaving things open to luck and just inviting problems and its also just not bright from a biz perspective. JMO

If you want some help on how to run a sucessfull buisness then feel free to ask away.......if you want to fly by the seat of your pants, leave the sucess up to luck and hope for the best and thus be the definition of a lowballer then thats your deal. Just STFU about it and dont knock people because they are trying to be responsible and actually run a buissness. 

I personnaly like lowballers. They cant compete at the same level inmost cases in the acounts I prefer to service and it never fails that after a bad winter you get a pile of new blades bought and lowballers out there only to give it up and sell of some good equipment the year after we get another normal winter


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

addicted said:


> That's nice. I have about 15 driveways and 2 parking lots. I get out of the truck and do the walkways too. I also do a better job than ANY of the "pro's" around here. When those are done i go door to door. I see some of the "Pro's" out in the street talking ship about me but i don't care. They sure as hell aren't getting out of that truck, or have the initiative to do so. As far as i am concerned, i am fulfilling a niche.
> 
> I have low overhead, and since i don't rely on my plowing income for much more than truck expenses and beer, i don't feel the need to charge exorbitant amounts of money for my service.
> 
> So, can someone give me a definition of lowballer, or can i just assume that it is simply a word you guys throw at anyone who does a better job for a better price than you, and ends up taking some of your accounts?


hey if your properly insured and do a good job ... your not a low baller. 
like you said your operating cost's are low so you can charge less. just make sure you don't leave to much money out on the table !


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

addicted said:


> Guess i hit a nerve with sno farmer!
> 
> Oh well,


 A nerve No ! just a fact. Buy your rant I can tell you only know what you have been told about a union..
I make around $32hr on my union job in the summer time.

In the winter I plow snow. I have 3 trucks and I hire an another one, I'm not big by any standards. I've been in the
SNOW BIZ since 81'. Do I have all the answers for you NO! There is more to know than you know.?????
I try to make around $120 to $200 hr no less, per truck Thats a lot of 
$12 buck, beer money drives, to make that Kind of $$.

You guys are right a low=baller is just like a mosquito,
there just little blood s#@ker's


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

SnoFarmer said:


> You guys are right a low=baller is just like a mosquito,
> there just little blood s#@ker's


hehe SnowFarmer, get use it it. low- ballers are in just about every business you can think of. im by no mean's an expert but you shouldn't concern yourself with true low-baller's or the part time beer money guy's.
they may take a few of your account's , they do screw thing's up for people that try and make a living doing this but they can not compete with a real snow removal company !


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## Kentuckydiesel (Dec 12, 2005)

SnoFarmer said:


> A nerve No ! just a fact. Buy your rant I can tell you only know what you have been told about a union..


I've been in two different unions and I'm here to say, addicted is right, unions are outdated, greedy, and are generally short sighted theives. (more the union leaders than the members, who are really only guilty of being led by bad people) -Phillip


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## Chris-R (Jul 9, 2005)

nekos is right. Lowballers are in just about every industry. Who among us has not shopped at Wal-Mart? It is now the largest corporation in the United States. It sells stuff for just a little less than the other stores such as Zayers, Caldor, Mammoth Mart, KMart, etc. Did you notice that most of the retailers I mentioned are out of business? That's because fierce competition from the likes of Wal-Mart and others put them out of business. KMart is in chapter 11 bankruptcy right now so we'll see if it survives. I don't like lowballers but it's a fact of life. Lowballers usually have old, outdated and improperly maintained equipment. They can charge less than people like me who keeps new and up-to-date equipment. Even with all the lowballers around, I have all the work I want. My father always told me to stop worrying about the competition and instead, make sure I do a good job for my current customers and they'll get me more jobs. He was right as I have more work than I can handle.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Kentuckydiesel said:


> I've been in two different unions and I'm here to say, addicted is right, unions are outdated, greedy, and are generally short sighted theives. (more the union leaders than the members, who are really only guilty of being led by bad people) -Phillip


: I said that a lot of city, county and state PLOW drivers are union. 
Yes, there are people who abuse unions and there abusive unions. There are business that treat there employees like second class people and if there workers organize then they deserve to be unionized.


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## Kentuckydiesel (Dec 12, 2005)

SnoFarmer said:


> : I said that a lot of city, county and state PLOW drivers are union.
> Yes, there are people who abuse unions and there abusive unions. There are business that treat there employees like second class people and if there workers organize then they deserve to be unionized.


I worked a part time job at Autozone for a while. They are one of those companies that treats employees like second class citizens. What did I do? Quit.  How does this help anything?? Well, their employees are generally vehicle-stupid anymore because they aren't willing to pay well and have gotten rid of parts to bring in junk. Eventually people won't shop in a place where they can't get decent help on a question. 
I strongly believe that a job is nothing more than a person exchanging their time and knowledge for money. If they aren't being paid what they want, move on. Just like you guys would do on any plow job. You aren't getting paid well? Don't plow there.
Unions are like price fixing, which is illegal. That doesn't work well in capitalist economies. -Phillip


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## johntwist (Feb 10, 2004)

Like anything else we talk about, it all depends on what part of this country you happen to be in and your own personal circumstances that really define the lowballer. That can be said for anybody's opinion of the unions too.

For me, just the fact that I'm one guy with one truck probably makes me a lowballer in the eyes of the guy who runs 10 big trucks and has all these contracts with the city and the big shopping mall and so on. But, I can say that I carry insurance, pay my taxes, and charge a fair price for quality service. This suits me. And, since it does, I basically don't much care if anyone else doesn't agree with me. My customers are happy, and I make extra money. Best I can do working a regular full time job on top of plowing. I really don't know what else I could say about that.

As far as the unions go, I have a book in a major Boston local. About a year ago, after being laid off for over 6 months and nearly losing my house, I took a full time job for about 2/3 of what I got paid in the union. It was a hard choice. But, see it's not just about me, it's about my wife and my 3 kids who depend on me to provide for them all. I don't care if you make 50 bucks an hour, if you only make it for 5 months a year, it's not so much.

The union is great in certain ways, big paycheck, lots of emphasis on jobsite safety, even stewards who'll argue the general contractor into putting heaters in the sh!t houses during the winter. They are also places to protect some of the biggest a$$holes you'd ever not want to meet. There's nothing that kills your spirit more than knowing you can't get out on a job when you're a good, capable, experienced journeyman who shows up for work on time every day (sober) and does his 8 hours. Then you see the half-toothless moron boozebag meth addict who just happens to be related to one of the business agents and works (well is on a job site somewhere anyway) all year round. That just isn't right, but it's reality.

So, it all depends on your point of view. If you're in the union and lucky enough to either have the right connections or a great boss who'll keep you working, then the union's the bomb. If you're just another number down at the hall, then it pretty much sucks. In the same spirit, if you plow snow in an unsafe, unprofessional manner for chump change then I guess you're a lowballer. But, if you take pushing snow seriously, do the best legitimate job you can for any number of regular, satisfied customers, then I say you're a snow removal professional, regardless of how many trucks you have or what you charge, because that's simply your own damned business.

Agree with me or not, but that's the straight story in my opinion.


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## NEAL (Dec 19, 2000)

johntwist, Very well put!


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## SnoForce (Feb 8, 2004)

Johntwist -- couldn't have said it any better myself:salute:


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## Foxfire (Sep 25, 2003)

I think that if we find out someone on this site is a low baller they should be put on a Ignore list? Lets put this up for a vote. Lets weed out the low ballers...:realmad:


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## johntwist (Feb 10, 2004)

Foxfire said:


> I think that if we find out someone on this site is a low baller they should be put on a Ignore list? Lets put this up for a vote. Lets weed out the low ballers...:realmad:


I have an even better idea, why don't we order some white robes and hoods that say PlowSite.com on them! If you want color, maybe Sean will go for a swastika on one arm!


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## addicted (Dec 13, 2005)

First off- Ratlover, nekos and johntwist- point taken. Thank you. 

As for the rest of you who feel the need to constantly trash low ballers, WTF? 

Everyone needs to start somewhere. If you all do as you claim and are running great businesses, than why should it matter that someone new is taking a few accounts from you? Especially if they do as bad a job as you say, and you end up back at that account the next year. 

You will not be alive forever, and will need someone to do your job eventually. Subbing for a company is something i have never thought of doing, however it seems as though there are plenty of people ready and willing to do it. I for one, have a more entrepreneurial spirit. As most of you that run your own businesses do. This is why I am doing things the way i am doing them. I am no expert, and completely understand the risks involved, and that it is my ass on the line. I don't need to plow. I enjoy it. It is a way to make some cash on a day that would otherwise be wasted.

As Chris r said. There are low ballers in every industry. They are not bad. They bring competition. Competition makes the big guys re think there strategy in order to stay on top. It also makes the little guys try to mimic the big guys. In the end, we all win. Pro, loballer and customer alike. Why? Because the level of service goes up ,the cost is competitive, and we are all forced to be at the top of our game and not be complacent.

At this point, I am a low baller. I am gradually working my toward becoming a legit business. Hopefully the rest of you will help to guide me in the right direction, instead of childishly labeling me and the others just like me.

Oh- one more thing. Why is it that you are so quick to judge especially when we are all half a continent away from each other?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Addicted, 
As for low-ballers some insight lol...
I guess I'm old and jaded..lol
Your young at 24 years of age As I'm 44 now. Even you could have 5 years of experience in snow removal by now who knows? It's not that your young. You could be very good at snow removal. 
Age has nothing to do with abilety.... 
I just have a different prospective thats all. I started like your self in the Snow Biz, but in 1979 I was a sub for my sisters boyfriend, he paid me $33HR.
The next year I got a couple of my own accounts and it snow balled from there. After a few years I had all but one of his accounts and I increased my prices, You have to sell service and then provide it.

Try to make a living in Snow removal,, sure it's only 5 months of income a year. So how month do you want to make? or need to? O.k. let's say you have a wife, two kids, a mortgage, a business loan, bills, a few dogs ,
life takes money!payup 
So now every one screams but I have no overhead like you do, some have a lot more some less.
BUT. so, if I get $150 for lot X and you can do lot X at $50 and you come in and low-ball me you just took $100 bucks away from me a push for at least a year or until I can find a replacement or they call me back next year. You could have easily have made more! Why do leave so much money on the table?? Thats a lot of beer money!!!LOL
Don't take it to hart It's kind of a hazing for some, The 
whole low-balling thing, but you can see why it can be annoying to have to go around and get new well paying clients every year because you got low balled your self. 

Hey thanks!! for letting ME RANT :realmad: everyone.. 

AT least I make my self chuckle

p.s. I think I'm going to go take a couple of dogs for a walk!! lol


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## exmark1 (Nov 30, 2005)

Or maybe needs some more...WTF was all the rambling about anyway?


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## Ken1zk (Dec 19, 2004)

Chris-R said:


> Lowballers are in just about every industry .... My father always told me to stop worrying about the competition and instead, make sure I do a good job for my current customers and they'll get me more jobs. He was right as I have more work than I can handle.


Chris this is very sound business advice. I have been in other service industry businesses and I can say from my own experience that there are guys out there in many service sectors doing work and charging far below what it takes to make a business successful and able to operate. So how do they stay in business? They do not, eventually they fold for two main reasons.

First - The low-ball guys loose many customers due to inferior work. They earn a reputation of rarely showing up on time or when promised and then they do such a lousy job the customer feels ripped off.

Second - There low end guys can afford to keep their business going due to the fact that they have created a negative cash flow problem for themselves by not charging enough in the first place. Then when the whole business comes crashing down under a load of bad debt they just evaporate, never to be heard from again. This is generally due to them ducking the news media, judgments and pending legal action.

Now heres the good part, as soon as one guy goes under there is a new guy ready to jump in and take his place. Believe me this problem was here long before any of us got here and it will be here long after we are gone.

So how can you combat this you ask. Simply operate a business built on quality service (that my friend is our only product) at a reasonable price. Keep your word, do all you have promised, and do the best job you can. Take care of your customers with professionalism and sincerity and your business will grow. It will not happen overnight, it will not happen in just two seasons, it takes time, effort and determination. Just ask any member of this board who says that they no longer advertise how they got to that point.

Johntwist - I for a long time saw unions as relics from the past, no longer needed in todays modern era. Heck, we have OSHA to guard workplace safety, wage laws and unemployment insurance are here for every American worker. Today I see things differently as more major corporations take advantage of the working poor, and middle class. Yes where you live in this great land of ours will most likely influence your opinion on the benefits of unions. But the changes sweeping this country may become the new driving force in opinion. When one of this nations largest employers, Wal-Mart has a program to help it's employees seek out public assistance benefits, all the while the top executives make more money, I really think a union is necessary to ensure a fair wage for these people who have made this company so successful and to help remove corporate welfare from the backs of the rest of the American population. Thats my view. :salute: 
Ken


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## iakentdoz (Dec 20, 2005)

Being a new business to snow removal, I don't feel like I can or should have the same pricing as some one who is bigger (more equipment, customers, or advertising). I keep my pricing lower to attract new costumes, and not over due it and not be able to get costumes. As I grow and get a feel for how much I should charge, any "low balling" will be come more "normal balling". By starting out low, I am giving my customers who do take a chance on a "new" business a break and as I grow in size and customers, so will my pricing.

Sure, If customer "A" speaks to customer "W" and customer "W" pays 2 times as must as customer "A" I might have a problem. But I would just explain to costumer "W" why "A" got the price break. Not all "Low ballers" are alike, and if you want to make it and treat your costumers right, the there is nothing wrong with low balling. I love big $$$ and any low balling will happen to smaller costumers and save bidding high for the ones who have the $$$$.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

iakentdoz said:


> Being a new business to snow removal, I don't feel like I can or should have the same pricing as some one who is bigger (more equipment, customers, or advertising). QUOTE]
> 
> Why not the same price? Is your plowing substandard? Is yous salt infective?
> How are you going to explain why you need to raise your low price, to one you can make a living from?. why are you afraid of competing at the same level?
> Hey! it's mot charity!! It's work!! Get wat are you worth!!payup


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## iakentdoz (Dec 20, 2005)

SnoFarmer said:


> iakentdoz said:
> 
> 
> > Being a new business to snow removal, I don't feel like I can or should have the same pricing as some one who is bigger (more equipment, customers, or advertising). QUOTE]
> ...


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## RickO (Dec 23, 2005)

*Ignore List?*



Foxfire said:
 

> I think that if we find out someone on this site is a low baller they should be put on a Ignore list? Lets put this up for a vote. Lets weed out the low ballers...:realmad:


Hope your kidding

I think if most of you were honest you would all have to admit you started out very much like addicted and myself. Lowballers are really just guys trying to do the same thing as you all. Put food on the table. They just go about it a little differently. I can relate with addicted, in that I have worked for a union that kept lazy people employed but also think the union does still have a place in our country. I have been laid off, about lost my house ... (violins playing) 

I can see both SnoFarmer and addicted's side. When it comes down to it I think we are not that much different. I thank the professionals on this site for the advice they offer and eventually I will be a true pro also. As for the unprofessionals I wouldn't care if they ignored my comments.

Unprofessional has many forms - sometimes it is how you treat people you disagree with.


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## addicted (Dec 13, 2005)

Hey sno farmer- Thanks for coming around and approaching this from a different angle. I think we both see each others sides clearly. So let's agree to disagree?

When i posted in this tread, i had no idea that i would start a pissing contest. I think it was worth it because i learned allot.

Here's a suggestion to all:
Instead of trashing a low baller when one is discovered on this site, why not calmly and rationally explain the reasons not to low ball, and why things like insurance are important? Isn't that the whole purpose of this "new to the industry" forum? Also, why don't we all look to see where people are from before trying to steer them one way or another. Some of you guys are in Michigan and surrounding areas, where winter is half the year, and plowing is a serious form of income. Others, myself included, have relatively short winters. This means that we all have different priorities and rationale for doing what we do, and how we do it.

Oh yeah, can someone in the north east do a snow dance? I need somepayup


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## PaleRider (Nov 30, 2005)

*What a waste of time!*

 I can't believe I wasted my time reading this! Is this suppose to help in some way?

PaleRider


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Hey Addicited, 
No harm no foul.lol. Not a pissing contest, just a good debate:waving: 

iakentdoz,
Just think about this, you do a residential drive for $35 bucks but it only took you 10 to 15 minutes to do, and you can do 4 drives in an 1hr so you are NETTING $140hr.payup


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## iakentdoz (Dec 20, 2005)

SnoFarmer said:


> iakentdoz,
> Just think about this, you do a residential drive for $35 bucks but it only took you 10 to 15 minutes to do, and you can do 4 drives in an HR so you are NETTING $140HR.payup


That's just about what I charge for residential. So I'm very happy with $140 Hr Just can't see charging $75-125$HR I try to keep it at $60HR and try to keep all accounts in the same part of town so I'm not driving all over town.

I don't think of myself as a "Low Baller" but at the same time I'm not going to screw and residential costumers, I'll leave that for any commercial accounts I get.

All the info on the this is great, I am learning allot and hope I can help any one else too. Some of my best memories of my father was when I got the ride along with him when he was plowing roads and being with him darning a bad wither storm. That was the good old days!


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## jp2175 (Dec 29, 2005)

Makes for some interesting reading.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

jp2175 said:


> Makes for some interesting reading.




Just my $0.02


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## ICindrich (Dec 21, 2005)

I am new to plowing this winter, but I have been in construction since I was old enough to go to work and my father's been doing it for over 35 years. We do large residential jobs, ranging from 400 thou to 3-4 mil. We bid jobs every month and get about 1 out 5 or less. When we get the jobs, they are executed to budget and we make our fair profit. When we miss a bid, sometimes it is by 5% or so, another legitimate GC, but usually it is a new guy who doesn't know how to estimate and he comes in 1/3 to 1/2 our price. This guy ends up, at best, making him self look like an idiot, asking for more money every step of the job, or having to work other projects to pay for the big one, or, most likely, losing his shirt and closing up shop. One job we bid and missed was for a $600,000 pool house, a guy got it at 350, drove over in a brand new Chevy HD and two and a half years later (we sheduled 5 months) left in a 92 Caravan. 
Just my two cents about "lowballing". You can go low on stuff like driveways and such, but if you start messing with commercial stuff with low pricing, or proper/ back up equipment, you can get your self in a lot of trouble!


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