# Farm sues city for property damage due to salt.



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Wow this is a crazy, this judge just opened up a can of worms.http://london.ctvnews.ca/farm-awarded-100-000-for-damage-caused-by-road-salt-1.2200915


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Wow

A few years ago a bunch of blueberry farmers in Ottawa County sued Ottawa and\or MDOT. I don't think they won any monetary damages (could be wrong, it's been awhile) but there are now certain sections that are marked with signs that have to receive less salt or no salt. I'm too lazy to Google it.


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## CityGuy (Dec 19, 2008)

Neige;1935541 said:


> Wow this is a crazy, this judge just opened up a can of worms.http://london.ctvnews.ca/farm-awarded-100-000-for-damage-caused-by-road-salt-1.2200915


Wow.

I wonder how much right of way the city/county has there and if that was taken into account.


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## xgiovannix12 (Dec 8, 2012)

ok imma sue the town because of the salt rusting my truck JEEZ people have to much time on their hands do they


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

Mark Oomkes;1935557 said:


> Wow
> 
> A few years ago a bunch of blueberry farmers in Ottawa County sued Ottawa and\or MDOT. I don't think they won any monetary damages (could be wrong, it's been awhile) but there are now certain sections that are marked with signs that have to receive less salt or no salt. I'm too lazy to Google it.


I used to plow off Ransom st a couple years back. I would pass those signs wondering how they got there. I dont think the county even drops the plows out there now until there is 6 inches or more on the road. You have to love blueberry farmers...


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;1935557 said:


> Wow
> 
> A few years ago a bunch of blueberry farmers in Ottawa County sued Ottawa and\or MDOT. I don't think they won any monetary damages (could be wrong, it's been awhile) but there are now certain sections that are marked with signs that have to receive less salt or no salt. I'm too lazy to Google it.


Here I did for you http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2010/04/ottawa_county_blueberry_farmer.html


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

As a result of the damage to the Blueberry crops along US31 in Ottawa County by repeated road salt applications Michigan State University was awarded a grant to prepare a Winter Services Training manual. I was invited with a group of folk from the various stakeholders to partake in a task force to develop a Winter Services training manual for Michigan. This manual was prepared in the late winter / spring / early summer of 2013 and was led by Connie Fortin. The scenario painted in Ontario and Ottawa County Michigan is real. As Snow and Ice Management Professionals we need to do all in our power to protect the environment for our clients, for our communities, and for our future generations while providing them a safe winter environment. The process of developing this manual really opened my eyes to the negative aspect of road salt in our environment and was a major factor in our firm beginning to adopt liquids as a tool in snow and ice management. I encourage you to read the manual and use it as a building block in your snow and ice management program. There are numerous suggestions and suggested application rates, once again use them as a building block and tweak them to your particular need. The training manual can be found by pasting the following link into your browser; http://miwintermaintenance.weebly.com/manual-and-presentation.html.

Herm Witte


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Herm Witte;1935653 said:


> As a result of the damage to the Blueberry crops along US31 in Ottawa County by repeated road salt applications Michigan State University was awarded a grant to prepare a Winter Services Training manual. I was invited with a group of folk from the various stakeholders to partake in a task force to develop a Winter Services training manual for Michigan. This manual was prepared in the late winter / spring / early summer of 2013 and was led by Connie Fortin. The scenario painted in Ontario and Ottawa County Michigan is real. As Snow and Ice Management Professionals we need to do all in our power to protect the environment for our clients, for our communities, and for our future generations while providing them a safe winter environment. The process of developing this manual really opened my eyes to the negative aspect of road salt in our environment and was a major factor in our firm beginning to adopt liquids as a tool in snow and ice management. I encourage you to read the manual and use it as a building block in your snow and ice management program. There are numerous suggestions and suggested application rates, once again use them as a building block and tweak them to your particular need. The training manual can be found by pasting the following link into your browser; http://miwintermaintenance.weebly.com/manual-and-presentation.html.
> 
> Herm Witte


Thank you Herm and well said. I have some reading to do over the weekend.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

I'm gonna ask around about the one in Lambton County - I have friends and family in that area (some on the same road).


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

GMC Driver;1935807 said:


> I'm gonna ask around about the one in Lambton County - I have friends and family in that area (some on the same road).


Trying to cash in? Lol


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

About time "WE" use much too much salt on the roads. Its winter it snows people need to learn how to drive and walk in the winter. Dont expect to drive like its summer. Im tired of having my cars/trucks/equipment rot out from salt because too many people thing they need to drive just like its summer. how about just sand.

thats my 2 cents


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

theplowmeister;1936161 said:


> About time "WE" use much too much salt on the roads. Its winter it snows people need to learn how to drive and walk in the winter. Dont expect to drive like its summer. Im tired of having my cars/trucks/equipment rot out from salt because too many people thing they need to drive just like its summer. how about just sand.
> 
> thats my 2 cents


I've said 100 times, this industry has been litigated into over salting. Maybe rulings like these are a bridge off that island so to speak. One can hope.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

theplowmeister;1936161 said:


> About time "WE" use much too much salt on the roads. Its winter it snows people need to learn how to drive and walk in the winter. Dont expect to drive like its summer. Im tired of having my cars/trucks/equipment rot out from salt because too many people thing they need to drive just like its summer. how about just sand.
> 
> thats my 2 cents


"WE" as in Kent County, does not use too much salt on the roads. On the contrary, many times they create as much ice as they melt.


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## novawagonmaster (Jun 16, 2014)

theplowmeister;1936161 said:


> About time "WE" use much too much salt on the roads. Its winter it snows people need to learn how to drive and walk in the winter. Dont expect to drive like its summer. Im tired of having my cars/trucks/equipment rot out from salt because too many people thing they need to drive just like its summer. how about just sand.
> 
> thats my 2 cents


I agree 100%. I hate rust.

Most back roads in my area are only salted/sanded at intersections. The roads are plowed regularly and easily traveled (especially with proper winter tires!). I wish all of the roads were handled this way.

The Interstate highways and main roads are way over-treated. They are out before the storm treating clear/dry roads with the devil's juice. So much for washing the vehicles between snow events! Then they salt, salt, salt during the lightest of snows. Everybody around here wants wet roads so they don't have to invest in Winter tires. With proper rubber, you can easily drive on snow covered roads.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Started to read this. Did not know salt could cause that much damage!!!


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

We have farms where certain area's nothing will grow and it's directly caused by salt run off. It looks like the salt flats when it dries.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

My main business is row crop farming. Let me tell you, salt can absolutely DESTROY farmland. It's not a small matter at all. When you buy ag land at $5,000 (in michigan, ie cheap) per acre with a plan to pay for it over 30 years you cannot afford to lose production.

I spend hundreds of hours a year pulling soil samples and analizing lab results to correct PH, phosphate, potassium, zinc, sulfur, etc, etc, levels in soil. It's not "just dirt"


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

thelettuceman;1937736 said:


> Started to read this. Did not know salt could cause that much damage!!!


Salt is one of the most corrosive substances on this planet. Possibly the most corrosive natural substance. I've seen salt eat through electrical wires. creep down the wires to the outlet and start a fire. And yes salt also kills plants, kills soil, and even eats concrete!!!


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## Pit Crew (Mar 19, 2014)

theplowmeister;1936161 said:


> About time "WE" use much too much salt on the roads. Its winter it snows people need to learn how to drive and walk in the winter. Dont expect to drive like its summer. Im tired of having my cars/trucks/equipment rot out from salt because too many people thing they need to drive just like its summer. how about just sand.
> 
> thats my 2 cents


I agree 100%. I would like it if they would plow only. With maybe sand in the intersections etc.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

JD Dave;1937753 said:


> We have farms where certain area's nothing will grow and it's directly caused by salt run off. It looks like the salt flats when it dries.


You sure its not because of Farmers misuse of Pesticides and Fertilizers..... I'm sure you will come back with a witty answer.........:whistling:


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Doesn't the acid rain neutralize the end product?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

1olddogtwo;1938161 said:


> Doesn't the acid rain neutralize the end product?


Many factors in play here.......Salt is a main one....


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

1olddogtwo;1938161 said:


> Doesn't the acid rain neutralize the end product?


No it wouldn't. Actually we don't have acid rain any more. As a result yearly applications of sulphur is becoming necessary on many cropped soils.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Defcon 5;1938112 said:


> You sure its not because of Farmers misuse of Pesticides and Fertilizers..... I'm sure you will come back with a witty answer.........:whistling:


That was a rather uninformed guess. Yes, he is sure. Fertilizer doesn't kill soil, neither does pesticide. Misuse of pesticides can land a farmer in trouble with the federal govt however.

Salt will, naturally seeping or as a result of road salt use will kill soil.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Diesel Dan;1938552 said:


> That was a rather uninformed guess. Yes, he is sure. Fertilizer doesn't kill soil, neither does pesticide. Misuse of pesticides can land a farmer in trouble with the federal govt however.
> 
> Salt will, naturally seeping or as a result of road salt use will kill soil.


This is a typical response from a farmer claiming they don't do any harm to the environment....:laughing:

Keep pouring pesticides and fertilizers on those crops and sit back and collect your subsidys.......:laughing:

I will agree with you that salt will kill the soil......But that's the only thng I will agree with you on.....:salute:


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Diesel Dan;1938552 said:


> That was a rather uninformed guess. Yes, he is sure. Fertilizer doesn't kill soil, neither does pesticide. Misuse of pesticides can land a farmer in trouble with the federal govt however.
> 
> Salt will, naturally seeping or as a result of road salt use will kill soil.


98% of insecticides and 95% of herbicides reach a destination other than their target....

Please do preach to me that im misinformed.....I agree salt will kill the soil..Never said I did not....

I also agree that we as snow removal contractors have to be more aware of what we are doing to the environment......


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Defcon 5;1938570 said:


> This is a typical response from a farmer claiming they don't do any harm to the environment....:laughing:
> 
> Keep pouring pesticides and fertilizers on those crops and sit back and collect your subsidys.......:laughing:
> 
> I will agree with you that salt will kill the soil......But that's the only thng I will agree with you on.....:salute:


You don't know **** about farming dude.

But hey, it's so easy any idiot can do it and the government makes you millionaire right?

How many 1,000's of acres are you farming these days defcon?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Diesel Dan;1938590 said:


> You don't know **** about farming dude.
> 
> But hey, it's so easy any idiot can do it and the government makes you millionaire right?
> 
> How many 1,000's of acres are you farming these days defcon?


Dude..............:laughing:...The 80s ended 35 years ago

Never called Farmers idiots.....I have respect for many of them

Just stating facts that the crap sprayed on crops is not good for the environment.......Dude


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Defcon 5;1938597 said:


> Dude..............:laughing:...The 80s ended 35 years ago
> 
> Never called Farmers idiots.....I have respect for many of them
> 
> Just stating facts that the crap sprayed on crops is not good for the environment.......Dude


Not sure what you mean about the 80's comment..

The "crap" we spray on crops goes through years of review before It is even tested on a commercial scale for 2-5 years. After that, pending final approval people like me, who have passed the required tests and obtained a licence to buy restricted use pesticides can buy them. Where and the amount of these products are applied is dictated by federal law.. Specific soil types may allow more or less of a specific chemical to be applied per acre, as according to that soil's ability to break down the chemical. We don't go chucking crap around willy nilly. Any violation or "off label" applications would at best end up in fines and litigation with the EPA and DEQ, or prison time. We have years of records of what is applied where as required by law.

You can buy a gallon jug of many of these restricted use herbicides at the your local hardware store and do what ever you want with it, ain't that ironic.

On a side note we use much lower rate of herbicide and insecticide than we did decades ago. We also use safer chemicals.

Keep your remarks about pouring fertilizers and pesticides and collecting subsidies to yourself, and DO NOT preach to me from the short bus. I do this sh*t full time, so please, don't try to educate me or anyone else.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Diesel Dan;1938621 said:


> Not sure what you mean about the 80's comment..
> 
> The "crap" we spray on crops goes through years of review before It is even tested on a commercial scale for 2-5 years. After that, pending final approval people like me, who have passed the required tests and obtained a licence to buy restricted use pesticides can buy them. Where and the amount of these products are applied is dictated by federal law.. Specific soil types may allow more or less of a specific chemical to be applied per acre, as according to that soil's ability to break down the chemical. We don't go chucking crap around willy nilly. Any violation or "off label" applications would at best end up in fines and litigation with the EPA and DEQ, or prison time. We have years of records of what is applied where as required by law.
> 
> ...


Relax, you're no different than pesticide applicators in the landscape industry. None other than using larger equipment and covering more acreage.

As for that alleged "rigorous" testing process, I have 1 word for you: Imprellis


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## UltraLwn&Lndscp (Oct 20, 2013)

Could it be? Another Monsanto and Dow loving farmer that believes there is nothing wrong with glyphosate and 2,4-D? Those GMO's and the residual chemicals are great for your kids and the rest of the country, eh? Take a look overseas...Many countries will not even take delivery of American produce.

Rigorous testing? The EPA and Congress are in the pocket of Monsanto aka the most evil corporation on Earth. 

Just because you can disc, seed, spray and harvest some acres it does NOT mean you have a clue what these chemicals and seeds are doing to the food supply.:waving:


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1938781 said:


> As for that alleged "rigorous" testing process, I have 1 word for you: Imprellis


Imprellis isn't for use on food crops. It is not subject to the same level of testing. Just saying.

Or maybe it's all you stupid landscape contractors pouring it all over the place :laughing: <(tongue in cheek remark)


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Diesel Dan;1938806 said:


> Imprellis isn't for use on food crops. It is not subject to the same level of testing. Just saying.
> 
> Or maybe it's all you stupid landscape contractors pouring it all over the place :laughing: <(tongue in cheek remark)


Did I say it was?

If you know the history of Imprellis, you would understand.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I got involved in the transmission debate, I think I might sit this one out.


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## all ferris (Jan 6, 2005)

Defcon 5;1938570 said:


> This is a typical response from a farmer claiming they don't do any harm to the environment....:laughing:
> 
> Keep pouring pesticides and fertilizers on those crops and sit back and collect your subsidys.......:laughing:
> 
> I will agree with you that salt will kill the soil......But that's the only thng I will agree with you on.....:salute:





UltraLwn&Lndscp;1938801 said:


> Could it be? Another Monsanto and Dow loving farmer that believes there is nothing wrong with glyphosate and 2,4-D? Those GMO's and the residual chemicals are great for your kids and the rest of the country, eh? Take a look overseas...Many countries will not even take delivery of American produce.
> 
> Rigorous testing? The EPA and Congress are in the pocket of Monsanto aka the most evil corporation on Earth.
> 
> Just because you can disc, seed, spray and harvest some acres it does NOT mean you have a clue what these chemicals and seeds are doing to the food supply.:waving:


You guys should grow your own food to eat. Raise your own meat if you are not happy with what you can buy. Don't go to the grocery store for any of your food... Tree hugging hippies


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

UltraLwn&Lndscp;1938801 said:


> Could it be? Another Monsanto and Dow loving farmer that believes there is nothing wrong with glyphosate and 2,4-D? Those GMO's and the residual chemicals are great for your kids and the rest of the country, eh? Take a look overseas...Many countries will not even take delivery of American produce.
> 
> Rigorous testing? The EPA and Congress are in the pocket of Monsanto aka the most evil corporation on Earth.
> 
> Just because you can disc, seed, spray and harvest some acres it does NOT mean you have a clue what these chemicals and seeds are doing to the food supply.:waving:


:laughing:

Now we have a GMO debate going? Get back to whole foods and buy some more gluten free glacier water. Glyphosate is practically harmless. I eat lunch with it on my hands. 
Your entire post is filled with misinformation.

Ironically lawncare the totally unnecessary business of making things pretty and green is a huge user of 2,4-D.

Infact the only acre of my land that has 2,4-D applied to it in years in the grass in front of the shop, mow that


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

all ferris;1938885 said:


> You guys should grow your own food to eat. Raise your own meat if you are not happy with what you can buy. Don't go to the grocery store for any of your food... Tree hugging hippies


:laughing:


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Diesel Dan;1938549 said:


> No it wouldn't. Actually we don't have acid rain any more. As a result yearly applications of sulphur is becoming necessary on many cropped soils.


I won't pretend to anything about growing crops or such but its good to know acid rain doesn't exist anymore. Who says the government waste money.

They must of wiped out most of the snow in the Midwest too this year as a bi-product.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

1olddogtwo;1938895 said:


> I won't pretend to anything about growing crops or such but its good to know acid rain doesn't exist anymore. Who says the government waste money.
> 
> They must of wiped out most of the snow in the Midwest too this year as a bi-product.


EPA regulations removed the sulfur from industrial emissions and diesel fuel. We used to get enough to replace what the crop removes for free. Now we are starting to have to buy it to amend soil.


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## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

I thought acid rain was bad for us. Who knew it was good.


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## pieperlc (Jan 4, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;1938781 said:


> As for that alleged "rigorous" testing process, I have 1 word for you: Imprellis


I was thinking the same thing as I was reading this. I think we're finally done removing trees.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Acid rain is a mild solution of sulfuric acid and nitric acid. 

so you telling me you have to now apply sulfuric acid to the land to grow crops.
the sulfur has changed it's composition when burned.

You add sulfur, in sandy soil with low organic content?
right? 
I have read the debate.
so how did they grow crops for 100's of centuries before the industrial revolution?

yes lowering the sulfur in fuel did help but what did the most to lower it was closing or retrofitting the coal fired power-plants in the U.S. and Canada to burn NG.

A good friend grows corn, beans, alfalfa, hay all the stuff necessary to run a dairy. 

I'm just bitter my folks sold their stocks in Monsanto back in the 60"s:crying:


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I feel better running without a DPF, its helping the farmer's


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

1olddogtwo;1938959 said:


> I feel better running without a DPF, its helping the farmer's


 Hummm
Not sure.
The sulfur was removed at the refinery not by the dpf
or we still could have 700ppm fuel.

but a high sulfur content diesel produces more particles. Lower sulfur fuel produces fewer particles,.

The dpf burns the particles for a clean burn.

i drove by a country inn today, i know it's not a holiday inn but it will have to do.:waving:

I have a dpf holding down a rafter.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I like Holiday inn, must have been a bad pillow cause I didnt learn better.


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## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

SnoFarmer;1938973 said:


> I have a dpf holding down a rafter.


I thinks thats about all they are good for.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Grassman09;1938988 said:


> I thinks thats about all they are good for.


Hollow it out and make a pulse-jet out of it.


Remember to get a vid.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Grassman09;1938920 said:


> I thought acid rain was bad for us. Who knew it was good.


Good for row crops. Sulfur is a major plant nutrient.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

SnoFarmer;1938948 said:


> Acid rain is a mild solution of sulfuric acid and nitric acid.
> 
> so you telling me you have to now apply sulfuric acid to the land to grow crops.
> the sulfur has changed it's composition when burned.
> ...


Before modern farming techniques of the last 60 or so years annual crop production would deplete soils. That is why we put fertilizer back, to replace the nutrients that leave on the truck.

For example a 200 bushel per acre crop of corn will remove, with the grain only, 150lbs/ac of Nitrogen, 66lbs/ac of Phosphorous, 46lbs/ac of Potassium, and 18lbs/ac of Sulfur. The list goes on but those are the 4 main Macro-nutrients out of the 16 essential for plant growth.

Sulphur is usually applied as elemental sulfur or the by product of emissions control equipment at power plants. It is just starting to become common practice. I had to add sulfur over the top of a field of corn this year that had sulfur deficiency symptoms. I used ammonium thiosulfate sprayed onto the leaves of knee high corn. Greened it up in 2 days, best crop of corn grown on that field since the trees were cut down 200 years ago. That was the first time I've used sulfur. Going to add some to the starter fertilizer this year to give the crop a boost before organic matter mineralization takes off as the temps rise.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

JD Dave;1938869 said:


> I got involved in the transmission debate, I think I might sit this one out.


So did I and I will sit out the remainder of this one.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Diesel Dan;1938552 said:


> That was a rather uninformed guess. Yes, he is sure. Fertilizer doesn't kill soil, neither does pesticide. Misuse of pesticides can land a farmer in trouble with the federal govt however.
> 
> Salt will, naturally seeping or as a result of road salt use will kill soil.


Doesn't fertilizer contain salts?


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1939147 said:


> Doesn't fertilizer contain salts?


Most fertilizers are applied in salt form. However they are applied in low rates. 200lbs per acre of 0-0-60 Potassium fertilizer is a very high rate. The chemical formula is KCl, Potassium Chloride. The problem with de-icer contaminating farm ground that the material commonly used is common rock salt, Sodium Chloride. Sodium is not something you want in your soil. Contamination due to road de-icer is from run off and the muni plows flinging slush into the headlands of the fields, where it is concentrated.

I've only had a couple of issues with road salt, nothing worth suing over. I'm in mid michigan however, where there is always a ditch along the road and two lane county roads where the fields are are rarely even salted, just the intersections.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Diesel Dan;1938806 said:


> Imprellis isn't for use on food crops. It is not subject to the same level of testing. Just saying.
> 
> Or maybe it's all you stupid landscape contractors pouring it all over the place :laughing: <(tongue in cheek remark)


Pesticides are supposed to go through a multi-year testing process as well. But, if a bizness has enough money, they can rush it through. As duPont did with Imprelis. It hadn't even been out a year before the feds registered it.

So if you really believe that something can't be rushed through because duPont, Monsanto, etc have deep pockets that the lobbyists feed politicians with, well, you belong in the same category as Birddseedd.

How many former politicians sit on the board of Monsanto?

Where are all the honeybees?

Are there really any long term studies that show what ingesting glyphosate does to a person over 30 years? Now that we have RoundUp ready corn and soybeans? God didn't create our bodies to ingest glyphosate. Or GMO's.

Just like there are unscrupulous lawn care businesses, there are unscrupulous farmers.

Does salt "kill" soil? Sure it does. You'd have to be an idiot to believe differently.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

all ferris;1938885 said:


> You guys should grow your own food to eat. Raise your own meat if you are not happy with what you can buy. Don't go to the grocery store for any of your food... Tree hugging hippies


Wish I could, everyone would be healthier for it.

Do you really believe that the massive increase in cancer(s) have nothing to do with GMO's, crops treated with glyphosate, etc?

As for being anti-pesticide and being a "hippy", I think DDT should be brought back to kill off mosquitoes in South America and Africa.


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## UltraLwn&Lndscp (Oct 20, 2013)

all ferris;1938885 said:


> You guys should grow your own food to eat. Raise your own meat if you are not happy with what you can buy. Don't go to the grocery store for any of your food... Tree hugging hippies


Don't worry, I have a hot house out back.  I guess I must be a hippy, but the cherry tomatoes, romaine, spinach and bell pepper salad I had last night was pretty tasty. The grass fed rib-eye was too.

You guys have fun with your glyphosate covered hands eating lunch. I do the same thing, but, it is too late for me. That stuff is not safe. Do you want your children ingesting it? Grand kids?

Back to rock salt killing blueberries and lawsuits on losing a few feet of farmland.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Wow let’s get back to the salt usage, this is a snow forum after all. Salting roads is a necessary evil to saving lives on our roadways. What is unfortunate is in today’s society we are so afraid of getting sued the applicate rates have increased, as has the frequency of applying salt to our roadways and parking lots. It used to be would apply salt only after an event, and people drove accordingly. When the roads were snow cover we would slow down, and many would have snow tires installed during the winter months. If we did end up in a ditch or have an accident we were the ones responsible, we could not blame someone else, we were the ones at the wheel and should have complete control of our vehicle at all times. Driving in the winter during snow and ice events has always been a hazard, and if you had to drive 10 miles an hour because the conditions dictated that, well then you did. Things have changed over time, and people are no longer responsible for themselves. It has now become the responsibility of the state, muni, and private contractors to ensure black pavement at all times, because we are too dumb to figure out for ourselves that maybe we should slow down, or even better yet stay home when conditions are dangerous. Because of this we have forgotten how to drive safely in snowy or icy conditions. We have dumbed down the driving population to feel safe while driving during these events. Well guess what it is not, never was and never will. But instead we have told them, don’t worry its safe, go out and do your grocery shopping anyways catch that latest movie. Better yet don’t worry because should you have an accident or slip and fall it’s not your fault, there is someone you can sue who did not hold up his responsibility to ensure your complete safety. I am surprised that during the summer when it is raining we are not running rubber edged plows on the roads, with big blowers on the back to dry them.
We are definitely applying way to much salt, and because of that destroying our environment. Salt will always be a necessary evil, I believe and this is just my opinion that our industry could cut down our salt usage by 50% and no one would notice. I am not saying everyone, but the industry as a whole. I know it’s an upward battle, but believe the pendulum is starting to swing the other way.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;1939169 said:


> Wish I could, everyone would be healthier for it.
> 
> Do you really believe that the massive increase in cancer(s) have nothing to do with GMO's, crops treated with glyphosate, etc?
> 
> As for being anti-pesticide and being a "hippy", I think DDT should be brought back to kill off mosquitoes in South America and Africa.


I think just lifestyle in general is more to blame for cancer rates. There's so many things in our food now due to processing. Dan does know what he's talking about and I know why he's getting upset. This is why I said I wouldn't respond as when you farm within the city like we do I have many people that want to debate this topic. Everything we eat has been modified over the years to produce more.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm guessing Quebec uses less then half the salt we use in southern Ontario. Your right Paul we can use less and the salt shortage last year proved that to me. The problem is salt is still relatively cheap around here.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1939167 said:


> God didn't create our bodies to ingest glyphosate. Or GMO's.


 This is a scientific discussion, now about superstition.

But, if it makes you feel better. God creates man, man creates roundup... it's all a part of the sacred plan.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Diesel Dan;1939333 said:


> This is a scientific discussion, now about superstition.
> 
> But, if it makes you feel better. God creates man, man creates roundup... it's all a part of the sacred plan.


God created cyanide too.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Neige;1939220 said:


> Wow let's get back to the salt usage, this is a snow forum after all. Salting roads is a necessary evil to saving lives on our roadways. What is unfortunate is in today's society we are so afraid of getting sued the applicate rates have increased, as has the frequency of applying salt to our roadways and parking lots. It used to be would apply salt only after an event, and people drove accordingly. When the roads were snow cover we would slow down, and many would have snow tires installed during the winter months. If we did end up in a ditch or have an accident we were the ones responsible, we could not blame someone else, we were the ones at the wheel and should have complete control of our vehicle at all times. Driving in the winter during snow and ice events has always been a hazard, and if you had to drive 10 miles an hour because the conditions dictated that, well then you did. Things have changed over time, and people are no longer responsible for themselves. It has now become the responsibility of the state, muni, and private contractors to ensure black pavement at all times, because we are too dumb to figure out for ourselves that maybe we should slow down, or even better yet stay home when conditions are dangerous. Because of this we have forgotten how to drive safely in snowy or icy conditions. We have dumbed down the driving population to feel safe while driving during these events. Well guess what it is not, never was and never will. But instead we have told them, don't worry its safe, go out and do your grocery shopping anyways catch that latest movie. Better yet don't worry because should you have an accident or slip and fall it's not your fault, there is someone you can sue who did not hold up his responsibility to ensure your complete safety. I am surprised that during the summer when it is raining we are not running rubber edged plows on the roads, with big blowers on the back to dry them.
> We are definitely applying way to much salt, and because of that destroying our environment. Salt will always be a necessary evil, I believe and this is just my opinion that our industry could cut down our salt usage by 50% and no one would notice. I am not saying everyone, but the industry as a whole. I know it's an upward battle, but believe the pendulum is starting to swing the other way.


Nothing to be added, Paul nailed it.



JD Dave;1939224 said:


> I think just lifestyle in general is more to blame for cancer rates. There's so many things in our food now due to processing. Dan does know what he's talking about and I know why he's getting upset. This is why I said I wouldn't respond as when you farm within the city like we do I have many people that want to debate this topic. Everything we eat has been modified over the years to produce more.


I have no doubt that Dan knows what he is talking about.

I was only pointing out fallacies in his argument.

And acting like landscapers have no idea what applying pesticides is all aboot.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Neige;1939220 said:


> Wow let's get back to the salt usage, this is a snow forum after all. Salting roads is a necessary evil to saving lives on our roadways. What is unfortunate is in today's society we are so afraid of getting sued the applicate rates have increased, as has the frequency of applying salt to our roadways and parking lots. It used to be would apply salt only after an event, and people drove accordingly. When the roads were snow cover we would slow down, and many would have snow tires installed during the winter months. If we did end up in a ditch or have an accident we were the ones responsible, we could not blame someone else, we were the ones at the wheel and should have complete control of our vehicle at all times. Driving in the winter during snow and ice events has always been a hazard, and if you had to drive 10 miles an hour because the conditions dictated that, well then you did. Things have changed over time, and people are no longer responsible for themselves. It has now become the responsibility of the state, muni, and private contractors to ensure black pavement at all times, because we are too dumb to figure out for ourselves that maybe we should slow down, or even better yet stay home when conditions are dangerous. Because of this we have forgotten how to drive safely in snowy or icy conditions. We have dumbed down the driving population to feel safe while driving during these events. Well guess what it is not, never was and never will. But instead we have told them, don't worry its safe, go out and do your grocery shopping anyways catch that latest movie. Better yet don't worry because should you have an accident or slip and fall it's not your fault, there is someone you can sue who did not hold up his responsibility to ensure your complete safety. I am surprised that during the summer when it is raining we are not running rubber edged plows on the roads, with big blowers on the back to dry them.
> We are definitely applying way to much salt, and because of that destroying our environment. Salt will always be a necessary evil, I believe and this is just my opinion that our industry could cut down our salt usage by 50% and no one would notice. I am not saying everyone, but the industry as a whole. I know it's an upward battle, but believe the pendulum is starting to swing the other way.


I agree 100%. Salt / Sand should be at intersections of high traffic roads only. Salt should be used to clean roads AFTER the event is over, if conditions will be near or above freezing. Throwing salt all over the place when it's -5*F does nothing but kill ditch grass.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1939338 said:


> God created cyanide too.


Does it melt ice?


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Neige;1939220 said:


> Wow let's get back to the salt usage, this is a snow forum after all. Salting roads is a necessary evil to saving lives on our roadways. What is unfortunate is in today's society we are so afraid of getting sued the applicate rates have increased, as has the frequency of applying salt to our roadways and parking lots. It used to be would apply salt only after an event, and people drove accordingly. When the roads were snow cover we would slow down, and many would have snow tires installed during the winter months. If we did end up in a ditch or have an accident we were the ones responsible, we could not blame someone else, we were the ones at the wheel and should have complete control of our vehicle at all times. Driving in the winter during snow and ice events has always been a hazard, and if you had to drive 10 miles an hour because the conditions dictated that, well then you did. Things have changed over time, and people are no longer responsible for themselves. It has now become the responsibility of the state, muni, and private contractors to ensure black pavement at all times, because we are too dumb to figure out for ourselves that maybe we should slow down, or even better yet stay home when conditions are dangerous. Because of this we have forgotten how to drive safely in snowy or icy conditions. We have dumbed down the driving population to feel safe while driving during these events. Well guess what it is not, never was and never will. But instead we have told them, don't worry its safe, go out and do your grocery shopping anyways catch that latest movie. Better yet don't worry because should you have an accident or slip and fall it's not your fault, there is someone you can sue who did not hold up his responsibility to ensure your complete safety. I am surprised that during the summer when it is raining we are not running rubber edged plows on the roads, with big blowers on the back to dry them.
> We are definitely applying way to much salt, and because of that destroying our environment. Salt will always be a necessary evil, I believe and this is just my opinion that our industry could cut down our salt usage by 50% and no one would notice. I am not saying everyone, but the industry as a whole. I know it's an upward battle, but believe the pendulum is starting to swing the other way.


Amen Paul - totally agree. Was talking with a fellow contractor at church yesterday, and we agreed that something has to change. Either the public has to realize that conditions are a result of our climate, not a result of incompetence of contractors/municipalities/DOTs etc. Or municipalities/DOT's/contractors should be lobbying our governemnt to eliminate any percieved liability exposure as a result of providing winter weather related services, so that new legislation can be enacted to that end.

More of these types of lawsuits, and I'd be betting on the second option.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Diesel Dan;1939345 said:


> I agree 100%. Salt / Sand should be at intersections of high traffic roads only. *Salt should be used to clean roads AFTER the event is over,* if conditions will be near or above freezing. Throwing salt all over the place when it's -5*F does nothing but kill ditch grass.


EXCEPT, it takes more salt to remove the hard pack that occurs, than if treated occasionally.

Treating a lot or roadway at -5*F does not strictly result in dead ditch grass.

There's a time to salt and there's also time(s) not to salt. (Getting back to God again and Ecclesiastes) I have stated that there are times when we do not salt, or just enough to reduce hard pack formation. I do not guarantee a black and wet surface. I will not guarantee that. Zero tolerance is stupid, as Jim Andersen has said time and again, and it is an oxymoron.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1939169 said:


> Do you really believe that the massive increase in cancer(s) have nothing to do with GMO's, crops treated with glyphosate, etc?


This I have to take issue with. Neither GMO crops, nor Glyphosate contain carcinogens, which for the layperson means a chemical that causes cancer.

Cancers rates are increasing because first and foremost, we find cancer. Generations ago the phrase went "Fred got sick and died" now we say "Fred got ass cancer from eating too much junk food, and had a genetic vulnerability as shown by the DNA test run by the medical professionals. Fred died of cancer"

We also live much longer than we used to. 400 years ago 50 was a decrepit old fart. Now 50 is the half way point. Something has to kill us eventually. Note that as age goes up, so does the risk for cancer, simply by the nature of our bodies. Not all cancer is caused by chemicals. Ever known someone with lung cancer that lived away from the city and never smoked a Marlboro? I have.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1939356 said:


> EXCEPT, it takes more salt to remove the hard pack that occurs, than if treated occasionally.
> 
> Treating a lot or roadway at -5*F does not strictly result in dead ditch grass.
> 
> There's a time to salt and there's also time(s) not to salt. (Getting back to God again and Ecclesiastes) I have stated that there are times when we do not salt, or just enough to reduce hard pack formation. I do not guarantee a black and wet surface. I will not guarantee that. Zero tolerance is stupid, as Jim Andersen has said time and again, and it is an oxymoron.


I do agree that a lot cleans much better with the plow when it had a little pre-treat thrown down. Then again save the pre-treat pass and have a little more to put down after the plow. We have a huge warehouse / trucking place we keep pretty salty so the trucks don't get stuck, gas stations too. Everything else we try plow before salting.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Back to salt, If anyone is interested, Dale Keep is speaking this Wednesday morning at the GLTE conference in Lansing, MI. The conference is being held at the Lansing Convention Center. His topics are 1) How de-icers work and 2) Factors that influence application rates. His talks are at 8:00am and 9:00am. Just thought I'd mention this educational opportunity.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Diesel Dan;1939357 said:


> This I have to take issue with. Neither GMO crops, nor Glyphosate contain carcinogens, which for the layperson means a chemical that causes cancer.
> 
> Cancers rates are increasing because first and foremost, we find cancer. Generations ago the phrase went "Fred got sick and died" now we say "Fred got ass cancer from eating too much junk food, and had a genetic vulnerability as shown by the DNA test run by the medical professionals. Fred died of cancer"
> 
> We also live much longer than we used to. 400 years ago 50 was a decrepit old fart. Now 50 is the half way point. Something has to kill us eventually. Note that as age goes up, so does the risk for cancer, simply by the nature of our bodies. Not all cancer is caused by chemicals. Ever known someone with lung cancer that lived away from the city and never smoked a Marlboro? I have.


I had cancer when I was 17, coming up on 30 years ago. A lot more "younger" people getting cancer nowadays. When I had it, leukemia was the big thing in children, cancer was an old person's disease. Both my grandmother's died from cancer.

Never mind, I'll stick with the salt discussion.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1939454 said:


> I had cancer when I was 17, coming up on 30 years ago. A lot more "younger" people getting cancer nowadays. When I had it, leukemia was the big thing in children, cancer was an old person's disease. Both my grandmother's died from cancer.


 I'm wondering why you said this? I'm sorry you had cancer but it didn't come from farmers using products that didn't exist. Everyone knows people who are affected by cancer. Cancer isn't rare. I lost a grandfather to it, the other one had it when he was killed in an accident, and my uncle had tumors removed from his neck last year. Ironically (or not) my uncle got sh*t rich selling organic produce. His store is huge now. Thankfully he appears to be healthy today. Glad you are cancer free now.


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

Dan, I for one need what you produce and I appreciate it very much. The thought of having to grow or raise my own food is to overwhelming.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Grassman09;1938920 said:


> I thought acid rain was bad for us. Who knew it was good.


Acid rain is not sulfer.

I found this,
"
He said his studies indicate that acid rain might reduce yields of these two crops slightly when the crops are under stress from drought or other causes. But in most years the pollutant affects less than 1 percent of the nation`s soybean crop and does not affect the corn crop at all, Banwart reported.

``I`m convinced there are some effects from acid rain, but they have been small and inconsistent,`` he said. ``In the big picture, I anticipate no long- term detrimental effects from acid rain for agricultural cropping systems.``

One reason for this has to do with the difference between forest soils and agricultural soils, Banwart said. Unlike forest soils, agricultural soils are subjected to routine physical disturbances and frequent chemical changes. ``The nitrogen fertilizers growers apply as standard agricultural practices acidify soils more than acid rain does,`` Banwart said. ``One application of anhydrous ammonia (a nitrogen fertilizer) is equal to 20 or 25 years of acid rain at current rainfall pH (acidity level) in terms of theoretical chemical acidity.``"

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1987-12-28/news/8704060486_1_acid-rain-soybeans-crops

They remove sulfur from fuel at the refinery .
Coal releases acid rain, it is removed buy scrubbers\ emissions but it no longer is sulfur.

The rest of what diesel Dan says makes sense


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

SnoFarmer;1939763 said:


> Acid rain is not sulfer.
> 
> I found this,
> "
> ...


Acid Rain does contain sulfates. That fact that nitrogen fertilization causes acidity is AG 101, that's why we apply crushed limestone every 6 to 10 years on fields. What I was saying is that acid rain once provided, ironically, some nutrients to field crops. Before the clean air controls you essentially got a little free fertilizer. It was beneficial, not detrimental to the crops.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Here's a recent article about it, Sno

http://deltafarmpress.com/management/seeking-high-yields-reduction-acid-rain-and-need-sulfur


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Diesel Dan;1940019 said:


> Here's a recent article about it, Sno
> 
> http://deltafarmpress.com/management/seeking-high-yields-reduction-acid-rain-and-need-sulfur


The articel you posted and the one i did seam to contradict each other?

I'm not arguing the use of sulfur.

I'm just not yet convinced acid rain / sulfuric acid was a source of sulfur.

But more importantly , get any snow?


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

SnoFarmer;1940045 said:


> The articel you posted and the one i did seam to contradict each other?
> 
> I'm not arguing the use of sulfur.
> 
> ...


The article you posted was talking about the possible acidification of soil caused by acid rains. The actual effect on soil PH is (or was) small. Sulfuric acid contains sulfur, that I do know lol. The PH of soil and the amount of nutrients in soil are two whole different categories of soil health. For example I want my soils to have a PH of 6.5 to 6.8 and 20-30lbs per acre of available sulfur. As those levels change over the years I have to correct that with applications of certain materials.

And no, we aren't getting any snow


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

GMC Driver;1939349 said:


> Amen Paul - totally agree. Was talking with a fellow contractor at church yesterday, and we agreed that something has to change. Either the public has to realize that conditions are a result of our climate, not a result of incompetence of contractors/municipalities/DOTs etc. Or municipalities/DOT's/contractors should be lobbying our governemnt to eliminate any percieved liability exposure as a result of providing winter weather related services, so that new legislation can be enacted to that end.
> 
> More of these types of lawsuits, and I'd be betting on the second option.


Here is a great example of how the legal system is not allowing people to be responsible for their own actions. http://www.freerangekids.com/towns-ban-sledding-for-lawsuits-sake/
I know there are thousands more examples like these out there like this one.
I know that is why our industry is worried about reducing salt usage. I also know just like what Mark said, with last years salt shortage he still managed to keep his places safe with less salt. I heard that from many contractors last year, so I know we can cut back. I also understand that salt is a big income generator for many in our industry, so spreading less salt can mean less income.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

Neige;1940201 said:


> Here is a great example of how the legal system is not allowing people to be responsible for their own actions. http://www.freerangekids.com/towns-ban-sledding-for-lawsuits-sake/
> I know there are thousands more examples like these out there like this one.
> I know that is why our industry is worried about reducing salt usage. I also know just like what Mark said, with last years salt shortage he still managed to keep his places safe with less salt. I heard that from many contractors last year, so I know we can cut back. I also understand that salt is a big income generator for many in our industry, so spreading less salt can mean less income.


I often wonder if I should show up at a lot I plow, get out of my truck and fall on my ass. Then I can sue the property owner for allowing me to work in unsafe conditions. 

Yep, that's how Dan will make his retirement.


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