# must see snow melter



## jce4isu (Sep 12, 2005)

http://www.kcci.com/weather/22425506/detail.html

only $250,000 i will take 2 lol


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## jce4isu (Sep 12, 2005)

Buddy of mine works for the co that has 1 they are junk


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

then it melts and the lot is one big skating rink unless you pit it by a drain or a run off. not a bad idea though


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## exmark1 (Nov 30, 2005)

I was in the cities a few weeks ago and saw a company using something similar to that. If it's parked over a drain for the run off I would think it would be a good idea, especially in the larger areas where there is no decent place to stack large amounts of snow.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

Doesnt DellDoug have one? or has a close friend with one, i thought i remember that from last season.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Exactly, what happens when all the run off freezes. Can you say Liability? Alot of places don't have sewer drains like that, and even then there not exactly conveniently located or are hard to find during the winter months.

What is he talking about "only have to fire one motor"'? He has two plow trucks in the background and a loader dumping snow into the hopper. Now you have to come back through and salt/sand for the run off as well...Does't make much sense. 

$250,000.00......yeah I don't think so. That's alot of green. All the complications and scenarios are way to high in my book to support a price like that. 

To each his own I guess.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

RepoMan207;986726 said:


> Exactly, what happens when all the run off freezes. Can you say Liability? Alot of places don't have sewer drains like that, and even then there not exactly conveniently located or are hard to find during the winter months.
> 
> What is he talking about "only have to fire one motor"'? He has two plow trucks in the background and a loader dumping snow into the hopper. Now you have to come back through and salt/sand for the run off as well...Does't make much sense.
> 
> ...


250,000 doesn't make much sense in most our companies, but for the guys doing a few million a year in snow or whatever, in 5 months, I have a feeling a 250,000 dollar price tag is not such a ridiculous thought.

I always think the same thing about mulch blowers. I would love to own one but at $75,000 to $80,000 for a small 3-4 yard machine I cannot imagine it being a good investment. But right now I'm only grossing about 30K-35K in mulching during the spring. Talk to me when I'm tripling that, then I might own one.


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

That thing is tiny compared to DellDoug's... Check out the pics of his equipment.

http://www.plowsite.com/album.php?albumid=357


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

RepoMan207;986726 said:


> What is he talking about "only have to fire one motor"'? He has two plow trucks in the background and a loader dumping snow into the hopper. Now you have to come back through and salt/sand for the run off as well...Does't make much sense.
> 
> .


Makes perfect sense if you think about it.

One motor on the melter instead of several dump trucks. You need the plow trucks and loader either way.

The runoff would be greatly reduced this way as well and only need to be treated once instead of possibly daily for who knows how long.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Anybody ever thought of buying a couple of these and renting them out to cities that have a unusually high snowfall? Like western iowa who doesn't normally see such high snow totals with no thaw. i could see this as being profitable traveling to these cities after the storm and subcontracting snowmelting operations for them. Most cities couldn't justify the cost of one of these units to the tax payers but hiring some comapny to do it as needed maybe?


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## sparky2410 (Nov 26, 2009)

Go buy 3-4 new tri-axle dumps to haul snow with..... @ $125,000 a piece. That seems perfectly reasonable to spend 250,000 and its instantly gone.


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## KL&M Snow Div. (Jan 2, 2009)

They're a cool concept but not worth it imo.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

sparky2410;986864 said:


> Go buy 3-4 new tri-axle dumps to haul snow with..... @ $125,000 a piece. That seems perfectly reasonable to spend 250,000 and its instantly gone.


I'm not sure where your getting your numbers, but there more like $75k for a decked out a tri dump. The other thing is, I can also run a dump truck year round, day in and day out to produce revenue.


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## WingPlow (Jun 18, 2007)

75k for a decked tri-axle ????

i'd like to see that truck


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

the runoff comes out of those machines at over 70 degrees. this has been discussed in detail before. youd think they put these things in the middle of a lot and turn it to an ice rink? c'mon guys.


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## adamhumberview (Dec 27, 2009)

my neighbour has the exact same model. paid $250 k for it.. he dont like it to much.. says it doesnt live upto what they said it would...


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## 2005_Sierra (Aug 7, 2009)

RepoMan207;987038 said:


> I'm not sure where your getting your numbers, but there more like $75k for a decked out a tri dump. The other thing is, I can also run a dump truck year round, day in and day out to produce revenue.


where are you getting a decked out tri for under 100K new?


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

ProTouchGrounds;987257 said:


> the runoff comes out of those machines at over 70 degrees. this has been discussed in detail before. youd think they put these things in the middle of a lot and turn it to an ice rink? c'mon guys.


So what if it comes out at 70 degrees...it's going to cool down and eventually freeze. Depending on the ambient air it may be as long as 24 hours, but it will freeze. At 70 it won't evaporate.



WingPlow;987107 said:


> 75k for a decked tri-axle ???? i'd like to see that truck





2005_Sierra;987532 said:


> where are you getting a decked out tri for under 100K new?


Sorry, apparently that was a 08 left over special we looked at, their anywhere from $90K - $120K for a Steerling or an International. Their are even KW's for under $110K.

GMC O'Connor, Rowe Ford, Portland North, C.W. Kenworth.......there all about the same.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

RepoMan207;988100 said:


> So what if it comes out at 70 degrees...it's going to cool down and eventually freeze. Depending on the ambient air it may be as long as 24 hours, but it will freeze. .


I hear salt works great for stuff like that.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

cretebaby;988106 said:


> I hear salt works great for stuff like that.


Your absolutely right, but as I said in my previous post; it is one more step to come back and do, as well as monitor. You can't actually drop the salt right away without compromising the effects of it....to my understanding of it anyway.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

RepoMan207;988112 said:


> Your absolutely right, but as I said in my previous post; it is one more step to come back and do, as well as monitor. You can't actually drop the salt right away without compromising the effects of it....to my understanding of it anyway.


Eh? ..............


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

....You can't drop salt on a massive puddle of water and expect it to work once the temperature reaches the freezing point.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

> So what if it comes out at 70 degrees...it's going to cool down and eventually freeze. Depending on the ambient air it may be as long as 24 hours, but it will freeze. At 70 it won't evaporate.


because the runoff now has time to make it down to the storm drain before freezing again, jeez. not a difficult concept.



> Your absolutely right, but as I said in my previous post; it is one more step to come back and do, as well as monitor. You can't actually drop the salt right away without compromising the effects of it....to my understanding of it anyway.


well maybe you should go educate all those large snow removal companies on how thier 300K+ investments really wasnt worth it. Im sure their payback and npv analysis were way off.

do you really think these things would still be out there if there wasnt a market for them? At one point, a point which most of us will be never reach, it becomes more economical to melt the snow. Say you have 30 or more walmart sized lots. now compare how long it would take to relocate the snow from each one of those properties using say, 2-3 large wheel loaders and 10 tandem or triaxle dumps? not to mention the cost of diesel for 13 motors, the cost of operators for each one of those pieces of equipment then the transport costs of moving those loaders from site to site, granted there would be at least one loader at each site but for efficiency sake youd bring some more. and then factor in time it would take.

now imagine your hauling a single snow melter using one semi truck, and you have the loaders located at each site feeding the thing constantly. you have the snow melters engine, 2 loaders engines, and the semi's engine using fuel during transport only. thats 4 engines and a lot fewer operators.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

ProTouchGrounds;988162 said:


> because the runoff now has time to make it down to the storm drain before freezing again, jeez. not a difficult concept.


I'm sorry, have you run one of these, or seen them used in person. Cause I haven't, but just watching that video you clearly see the run off going everywhere. Can you imagine if it were further away, or like in you own scenario; in an open parking lot...yeah, it's not all going in the drain to say the least.



> well maybe you should go educate all those large snow removal companies on how thier 300K+ investments really wasnt worth it. Im sure their payback and npv analysis were way off.


WTF are you talking about "educate"? I was expressing MY opinion as many others here did. If you don't like it you can blow it out your [email protected]@. Seriously, you want to get an attitude with me because of my opinion??? Next time ignore it and move on or adjust your attitude a bit before replying. Now that I have vented, I think you should take a step back and really read what I wrote. Was I bashing you or anyone else here on this thread? I didn't think so. And like I said in my very first post...To each his own. I'm sure there are SOME applications where this would come in handy, but I HIGHLY doubt there is as many as one would think.



> do you really think these things would still be out there if there wasnt a market for them?


Yeah I do, there charging $250K per unit. I'm not a betting man, but I would bet you there only spending about a 10th of that on building it, or there abouts. Even if they were clearing only half of that...can you imagine?



> At one point, a point which most of us will be never reach, it becomes more economical to melt the snow. Say you have 30 or more walmart sized lots. now compare how long it would take to relocate the snow from each one of those properties using say, 2-3 large wheel loaders and 10 tandem or triaxle dumps? not to mention the cost of diesel for 13 motors, the cost of operators for each one of those pieces of equipment then the transport costs of moving those loaders from site to site, granted there would be at least one loader at each site but for efficiency sake youd bring some more. and then factor in time it would take.
> 
> now imagine your hauling a single snow melter using one semi truck, and you have the loaders located at each site feeding the thing constantly. you have the snow melters engine, 2 loaders engines, and the semi's engine using fuel during transport only. thats 4 engines and a lot fewer operators.


All good points. Like I said though, I'm sure there are SOME applications where this would come in handy, but I HIGHLY doubt there is as many as one would think. Call the company and see if you get there sales report....I bet it's under 50 across the US in the last 24 months at best. I could be wrong...


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

Tri axles go for 125-150k

Here are some decked out ones

http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=1706169

http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=2013569

http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=2236164

Maybe you can buy a cheap azz STERLING or something for around 120k. But there is a reason why they went out of business.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

RepoMan207;988155 said:


> ....You can't drop salt on a massive puddle of water and expect it to work once the temperature reaches the freezing point.


Why would it puddle? If it does put more salt on it. 



RepoMan207;988203 said:


> I'm sorry, have you run one of these, or seen them used in person. Cause I haven't, but just watching that video you clearly see the run off going everywhere. Can you imagine if it were further away, or like in you own scenario; in an open parking lot...yeah, it's not all going in the drain to say the least.
> 
> Are the lots you do shaped like a bowl with no drain?
> 
> ...


Would that be for just one brand or all of them?


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

The ones that i have seen run are parked over a sewer man hole and the water is deposited in there not dumped all over the parking lot.


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

dlcs;988230 said:


> The ones that i have seen run are parked over a sewer man hole and the water is deposited in there not dumped all over the parking lot.


I think you mean a storm drain. Not a sewer.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mackman;988232 said:


> I think you mean a storm drain. Not a sewer.


A storm sewer.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Mackman;988211 said:


> Tri axles go for 125-150k
> 
> Here are some decked out ones
> 
> ...


I said KW & International as well. Pete's are in a class of there own, especially the decked out ones. There are alot of Western Stars and Internationals around here. I never liked the looks of the Sterlings, but they ride better then the Internationals I thought. When I ran over the road I would be home for about a week at time before running back out, so I ran a 06 Tri dump for a local guy to keep busy.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

cretebaby;988227 said:


> Why would it puddle? If it does put more salt on it.
> 
> lol, stack it on!
> 
> Would that be for just one brand or all of them?


No, just that one brand.....


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

cretebaby;986816 said:


> Makes perfect sense if you think about it.
> 
> One motor on the melter instead of several dump trucks. You need the plow trucks and loader either way.
> 
> The runoff would be greatly reduced this way as well and only need to be treated once instead of possibly daily for who knows how long.


Its really can be a one man operation, if you have hours of melting to do. I own one and run it alone. The loader you need regardless how you will be removing snow. Crete you make a great point about the daily runoff. No piles not runoff.



ProTouchGrounds;987257 said:


> the runoff comes out of those machines at over 70 degrees. this has been discussed in detail before. youd think they put these things in the middle of a lot and turn it to an ice rink? c'mon guys.


I never tought of doing that, great idea then I can charge for another salting. :laughing:


RepoMan207;988155 said:


> ....You can't drop salt on a massive puddle of water and expect it to work once the temperature reaches the freezing point.


What are you talking about. There are no massive puddles of water, once you stop melting the water runs off to the nearest drain, and whats left evaporates. I usually will sprinkle a 10 pound bag of salt over the area.


ProTouchGrounds;988162 said:


> because the runoff now has time to make it down to the storm drain before freezing again, jeez. not a difficult concept.
> 
> well maybe you should go educate all those large snow removal companies on how thier 300K+ investments really wasnt worth it. Im sure their payback and npv analysis were way off.
> 
> ...


Well said, and really only need 2 engines running while its melting. I am not happy with mine, and have issues with it. But I cant stand it when people post comments and have no idea what they are saying. I have experiance with one and refreeze is not an issue. If you own one, and melt snow where there are no drains, and create a lake. Well then I have no idea how you ever came up with the $250 grand to buy one.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Mackman;988232 said:


> I think you mean a storm drain. Not a sewer.


Sorry for the confusion.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

RepoMan207;988240 said:


> No, just that one brand.....


Moot point either way.

A friend of mine manufactures some one of a kind pieces of equipment that wouldn't makes sense to 99% of his customers but makes perfect sense for the guy that is purchasing it.


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

cretebaby;988235 said:


> A storm sewer.


Samething as storm drain LOL

All i know is if your dumping that into a sewer you will be in big trouble.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

thank you neige, i was waiting for one of the big players to chime in on here. i wasnt aware that you owned one and i think delldoug "borrows" his friends Trecan unit right?

alot of us small scale guys only ASSUME things are ran a certain way, but until you get big enough you never really understand the costs involved and at that point cost minimization plays a much larger role or benefits are seen much more than it does in smaller scale operations.


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## RJ lindblom (Sep 21, 2006)

Mackman;988549 said:


> Samething as storm drain LOL
> 
> All i know is if your dumping that into a sewer you will be in big trouble.


The concept makes sense. One loader and operating cost of the melter compared to 6 dump hauling it away.

Refreeze hardly an issue... I have not seen storm drain freeze.


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

30 ton per hour would be too slow for the investment spent


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

> 30 ton per hour would be too slow for the investment spent


well then step up to the Snow Dragon SND5400 rated at 180 tons per hour!









or if thats not enough, go on over to Trecan's site and check out their 500PD rated at 500 tons per hour. and thats just their mobile unit. They have a stationary model rated at 600 tons per hour.

about the cost effectiveness part, taken from trecans site:



> Delays in snow removal can indirectly and directly result in loss of revenue. With airports, shopping malls, and parking lots a delay in snow removal can result in tremendous loss of revenues in addition to the trucking costs. Although costs are of the most importance, speed of removal is equally so.
> 
> Snow melting is a viable cost effective alternative to trucking and can save municipalities and snow removal contractors 50% or higher off their regular snow removal budgets. The potential for yearly and future costs savings is astounding. In most cases if these savings were applied against the purchase cost, assuming the snowmelter operates for only 16 days per year, 12 hours a day and disregarding interest, the capital cost on an average machine would be recovered in 4 years or less.


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## prslawncare (Dec 29, 2009)

I believe Mr.Allen could possibly give more info on his snow dragon. Perhaps operating costs of a machine that consumes 40 to 50 gallons of fuel per hour for operating? What kind of rates are you expected to be able to charge for such service/verse hauling snow in different parts of the snow belts. 40 to 50 gallons of fuel per hour. If local sewer and sanitation would allow for such to be dumped into ther drains.


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## snobgone (Feb 2, 2010)

They are used in areas where there is no place to haul snow to. Snow dump sites are getting harder to locate and it is cost prohibitive to haul 1000s of yards of snow every event. The water that comes out is typically filtered and cleaner than when it went in.

BTW, drains are below the frost line in most cases so freezing isnt an issue.


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## nicksplowing (Oct 5, 2005)

im liking this one


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## KJ Cramer (Aug 20, 2009)

Holy pissing contest!


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

This is an interesting debate I think. I've always wondered the cost effectiveness of the melters. I guess in a given scenario they are worth every penny. And in others, totally not cost effective. 
A perfect example: skid steer loading snow into 2 trucks and hauling away. Charging by the HOUR on the skid and the trucks. let's say $200/hr for all three. **this is purely hypothetical** If it takes 5 hours that's $1000 bucks.
If he's using a snow melter, maybe he gets done faster. let's say he charges $225/hr because of it. takes him 4 hours. that's only $900 bucks. 
Many people would take the $200 per hour because it's lower. When you say $225 they're thinking it's too high (even tho it could be less). Of course, the costs have to be figured out (fuel, labor, trucks, machines, etc) Makes my head spin to think about this, but from what I've found customers can be pretty closed minded. And each situation becomes its own animal. Which brings me back to my point, in certain situations the melter would be better, and in others, it makes more $$sense to haul it.


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## prslawncare (Dec 29, 2009)

For those of you that may be operating snow melters, perhaps you would share operating costs. Lets take in the fact of what people are charging for wheel loaders (size does matter) what size of dump trucks are we using?


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

Neige owns one and already commented on his use of it and I dont think any of us can doubt his business.

you dont go and buy one of these things and hope that you'll be able to use it sometime in the future. You are in a situation where the cost curve of hauling snow has risen enough that you run some numbers on a melter and realize that its cost curve is below the hauling method at some point. 

in short, this is the type of machine you go and buy AFTER a need has arisen and therefore you have already run the numbers on the investment.


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## KJ Cramer (Aug 20, 2009)

Agreed. This isn't something you'd buy on speculation. And frankly is too big of an idea for most of us and our snow companies. You would have to have a serious operation to need one and the circumstances would have to be right. This isn't something a guy with 5 pickup trucks and a couple of skids is going to be able to realistically need or sell to their customers.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

The guy DellDoug rents from owns one because his contracts include offsite removal of snow piles after every storm. In his case, it made sense for him to buy a melter vs paying out hundreds of thousands a year in trucking. That IMO would be the "ideal" scenario for ownership. When hes not using it he rents it out with an operator-which is a bonus. I have seen it in operation first hand and didnt see any major ice buildup anywhere around where the water drains from it. Like Paul has stated, most will evaporate.


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