# Client had two companies plowing for one storm :/



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

So ive spoken with the client several times now. 

The owner of a liquor store, large one in a strip mall, we handle the whole place, said after the big dec 19th storm, that the place looked great, thrilled with the service etc. At least some positive notes here compared to our other site troubles this season. BUT, they had to cancel the contract because apparently the "new" store, had a contractor handling the snow through the original builder?

I dont know 100% of the details, but apparently after getting our 5k invoice, another company claims they plowed 2-3 times and put down salt as well for 2k more lol.

Of course, they don't want to pay the bill now because of this. They seem to trust our invoice even though they had 10 million questions about it. Im going to guess at this point that hopefully theyll pay the bill soon, yet its due for net 30 in 7 days now. 

Dont know how this is our fault at all. Of course since we state we plowed 4" or 7" etc, im sure their numbers dont line up from times with this other company claiming they were plowing too. I never saw salt or indication of anyone else plowing when i was onsite 2-3 times in the course of the nearly 3 days worked there nor did our other crew/plow driver think that anyone else ever plowed.

This other company hasnt supplied them with "times" or accumulation amounts though so maybe this info will help us and be "professional" in this particular clients eyes. We had this account on contract for this season early too, since early October 2009.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

Do you have ANY accounts where is everything is going well?


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

How could someone else plow and salt and you or your guys never have noticed?


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## Silverado_guy07 (Jan 29, 2008)

I had it happen at one of my commercial accounts last year. LOL 
The contractor next doors subs didnt realise that there were two different propertys connected together through the parking lot and plowed my lot along with theirs. hahaha
I only wish they never realised cuz they did mid december


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

I don't get it??? I really just don't get it!!!!! Are you making these stories up ? how is it possible to have so many problems ?

Do you have a contract? Does the "other company" have a contract ? What does the original builder have to do with it ? does he still own the property ? If so who is your contract with ? who is the other guys contract with ?

If the builder has a snow contract and he no longer owns the property its his porblem to pay his plower. 

Does the liquor store owner own the property ? If not why is he contracting with you ? Even so if he has a contract with you he needs to pay you, or prove you didn't perform the service he contracted with you for. 

Google " unjust enrichment"


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

whos contract was signed first? if it was yours it stick to your guns. if they have had to take care of their own lot in the past and wernt notified that that was changing then the problem lies with the property owner and them.


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

Good god, you sure do have your share of problems. 

If you nor any of your empoyees noticed any evidence of any plowing or salting I would have to say the other compnay is trying to pull a fast one and try to pass off what you did as something that they did, bill them for it hopefully get paid.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Have you ever went by the name Bobbygedd over on Lawnsite?


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## Dstosh (Dec 30, 2003)

dlcs;972135 said:


> Have you ever went by the name Bobbygedd over on Lawnsite?


Oh man now that was funny!


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

dlcs;972135 said:


> Have you ever went by the name Bobbygedd over on Lawnsite?


LMAO, your right this is like something he would post.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

quigleysiding;972046 said:


> How could someone else plow and salt and you or your guys never have noticed?


Thats exactly my point, but client probably thinks "we are" billing him for our guys showing up and "noticing its plowed" so we charged them anyway, who knows. They're really lost in the situation.

They need to tell the other company to go pound sand and pay our bill.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Silverado_guy07;972060 said:


> I had it happen at one of my commercial accounts last year. LOL
> The contractor next doors subs didnt realise that there were two different propertys connected together through the parking lot and plowed my lot along with theirs. hahaha
> I only wish they never realised cuz they did mid december


And think of it this way, if your crew shows up to plow the property under contract, and its already plowed, Id certainly charge them for a plow anyway, but id get it cleared up prior to the next storm.

Lets just say that the other contractor plowed our lot 100% of the storm, our crew shows up several times and its done and so we don't get paid anything for that storm? If we are contracted for the work, damn straight were going to be paid for the site.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

BigLou80;972062 said:


> I don't get it??? I really just don't get it!!!!! Are you making these stories up ? how is it possible to have so many problems ?
> 
> Do you have a contract? Does the "other company" have a contract ? What does the original builder have to do with it ? does he still own the property ? If so who is your contract with ? who is the other guys contract with ?
> 
> ...


I know its like dumb and dumber in nj for us right now. I dont think we've had as many problems in the last few years doing commercial snow as this year already. We have a contract signed in early october, i "think" this other contractor already has a contract as well, but the owner had no idea about it.. so im told. Dont know what the builder has to do with it, guesssing thats how the owner didnt know about this company until after the storm lol. 
Our contract is through the liquor store and the owner himself. And i agree, the builder or whomoever else involved should pay that company, not the owner of the store now. The liquor store owns the whole property and the strip mall thing. There is a subway, and a fitness place built into the side of it with a couple other small stores. ill do the google lol.


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

WOW....If I had that much to complain about I would quit plowing....lol
Have you EVER posted anything good?


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

procut;972200 said:


> LMAO, your right this is like something he would post.


lol, ive read the stuff hes posted over there in the past, no same name on lawnsite too 

Since its taken him from December 22nd to now and he still doesnt have the full bill, times or paperwork from this other contractor xyz company, im going to guess its either a stall tactic or they just are really confused with the situation. They had 30 days to pay from December 29th 2009 invoice. their last service was 12/23/09, the very end of that big storm, they called us the next day AFTER they called the day prior saying how great everything was.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

hydro_37;972363 said:


> WOW....If I had that much to complain about I would quit plowing....lol
> Have you EVER posted anything good?


well we are profitable with snow... so that much is going well :/ But this past storm was pretty nasty to us. It seemed like one thing after another

Broken plow, 2x, broken spreader chute- replaced, truck stuck -got out eventually, tractor got hit, property entance plowed in by 16' pushbox loaders from the mall across the street...

Part of the problem was one new "reputable" plow driver basically said he was tired and quit when i called him in at 4am saturday morning.... we dropped the truck off at his house not too far from us the day prior too, so we were down a truck and driver to start.. Then one of my landscape crew drivers just never calls back after i talk to him the day prior, still have not talked to him to this day... scratch his name off the list.

Two laborers bailed at the last minute too, scratched them off. Wasnt a good start, lots got broken, guys hit curbs etc where no markers were, probably stolen, just as the ones we put out last week i noticed are gone already.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

RamAir, 

You need back up plans for your back up plans, to do this kind of work you have to have plans at least two deep for everything, people, trucks, blowers,gas stations, salt suppliers.................

How long have you been doing snow? Brings me back to the growing pains question. Did you grow ALOt this year? If so maybe too much............


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

Ramairfreak98ss;972351 said:


> I know its like dumb and dumber in nj for us right now. I dont think we've had as many problems in the last few years doing commercial snow as this year already. We have a contract signed in early october, i "think" this other contractor already has a contract as well, but the owner had no idea about it.. so im told. Dont know what the builder has to do with it, guesssing thats how the owner didnt know about this company until after the storm lol.
> Our contract is through the liquor store and the owner himself. And i agree, the builder or whomoever else involved should pay that company, not the owner of the store now. The liquor store owns the whole property and the strip mall thing. There is a subway, and a fitness place built into the side of it with a couple other small stores. ill do the google lol.


OK still not sure I am any better off for reading that but anyhow.

Will mr liquor store owner give you the name of the other company ? I think that maybe the owner is trying to pull one over on you, so he can hire a cheaper guy but I could be all wrong. If you can get the name of the other guy I would give him a call and ask who his contract is with might be some revealing information there. I would think If his contract was with the builder then his bill would go to the builder, not the new property owner unless they are one and the same or there was contract language about this in the construction agreement (which I highly doubt).

If you did the work and have the documentation to prove it and they needed/wanted the work done. Then you need to get paid. Thats what the googling is about. Even if you didn't have a contract you would still have a court case to get paid.

Do you have a termination clause in your contract ? If not you might want to add one. With out one they are probably free to Ieave at any time. I don't know about NJ but in Massachusetts there are no liquidated damages only proven sustainted loss. In laymans terms. you can't charge some one to get out of a contract unless you can prove them breaking the contract cost you money. Which while not impossible may be very difficult and time consuming to do. That being said, I would still put it in my contract anyhow to discourage anyody from leaving mid season, although you may not want a client who does not want you. You can put anything you want in a contract, but not all of it will past muster and be enforcable in a court room.

Maybe you knew all that and I just took a few minutes of your life you will never get back


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

simply stated, isn't it up to the contractee, to know who is hired for snow removal, i have been double booked before too, not my fault, not the fault of the other contractor either. it is the responsibilty of the owner/property manager to be up on what is going on, with that being said, be understanding here, if there is a honest mistake, and they pay you up, give them a break getting out of their contract, they well hopefully remember you for it.


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## ColumbiaLand (Sep 1, 2008)

Sounds to me that you need a serious lawyer for all of these problems with contracts and other companies that you continue to have.


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## ppandr (Dec 16, 2004)

forestfireguy;972401 said:


> How long have you been doing snow? Brings me back to the growing pains question. Did you grow ALOt this year? If so maybe too much............


Ditto....After your last billing debauchery I am not suprised of additional problems. Are you a direct service provider and own the equipment listed below or do you sub out? Owner or employee? It baffles me how anyone in an ownership or management position could be this far removed from your clients.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

forestfireguy;972401 said:


> RamAir,
> 
> You need back up plans for your back up plans, to do this kind of work you have to have plans at least two deep for everything, people, trucks, blowers,gas stations, salt suppliers.................
> 
> How long have you been doing snow? Brings me back to the growing pains question. Did you grow ALOt this year? If so maybe too much............


Yeah, as much backup as i think we have its obviously not enough. We've only handled commercial now this is the 4th or 5th season. Although things didnt go smooth last year, i thought i eliminated most of it with more equipment, better accounts, not so much work subbed to us now besides a couple....

And yes we've moved forward very fast with snow removal, clients, invoicing, imcome etc. Started as only a set of accounts added for our one truck over top of a whole residential sector route, 2nd season expanded to 4-6 of our own small accounts and still the subbed work to us. Added 2nd truck, do more than doubled previous year.

3rd season added a few more accounts, and some USM work in trenton NJ. This year basically doubled the prior.

4th season "last year', still had nearly everything we started with and built up to, added two big places subbed to us from another contractor that worked out ok, but wasnt close, this was the big issue with the lipinski/brickmans sites last season in other posts, because the lipinski ones were a nightmare and we dealt with them through one sub contractor, THEN signed other locations with another sub to make up for the hole in the route list and schedule and THOSE were from lipinski's too and were losing a LOT of money for each time we had to salt them.... read those posts over. Last year went well except for the bad issues with the companies we dealt with, it was never really a "plowing performance" or lack there of issue though.

This year, 5th season, nothing from lipinskis or brickmans, only two big subbed contracts but much larger than before, year prior we used the tractor on one of the big sites, but really didnt need it, had enough trucks in 4th season. This year we have the tractor and 8' box at one large account, still waiting on the deere skid steer thats been on order forever now, already have an extra 10' box and new 10' box coming with the skid. Have an extra truck for this season and possibly one more this coming month. Added the bulk salt and bulk salt spreaders this year but that caused more headaches that i could have ever imagined without having our own salt pile. Our main supplier closes from Dec 18th at 5pm and didnt reopen until Dec 21st, first weekend theyre not open on weekends, go figure. 2nd supplier is way far away and since its the first time i've seen 'bulk" salt in quanity, i trusted their judgement of getting 6 tons. Well 6 tons ended up filling our 2 yard hopper 2.5 times :/ We then get a little over 4 tons the next week and the hopper is billowing over 3 times :/ Thats just inexperience and not knowing if your really getting the proper tonnage or yardage. That company doesnt weigh but sells by the ton so we already don't use them.

Since the salt headaches, we're using international salt for a 27 ton drop at one big site and our scheduled 18 skids of bagged salt for december 18th "friday before the storm on saturday", finally came the following saturday. Thank god we still had enough skids left over from the last season, but ran down to nothing by the time this truck came in.

So as you can see, we've doubled/tripled/quadrupled gross income for snow services each year for the past bunch of seasons. And no, i dont stock the routes heavy on purpose, in september/october my first concern is that we dont have enough for all the trucks or equipment. Next thing you know, one finally comes back, then another, both i really wasnt jumping for joy over....... A couple weeks later, one or two of the awesome contracts come back and now you have clients all over "not close on the route" or too many new sites that you dont have great time estimations for for each truck.

The two main time consumers of that storm were our one site going from 100k sq ft worth to them notiffying us that theyd pay 3x more for the actual site was the whole mall and had 8" on the ground already and went to 375k sq ft... that and that pile in another town where the contractor plowed our whole entrance shut, that required having to move everything from one town to the next just to get the tractor and crew over to move the mess.

We've already made these changes since this last storm

1. Extra bulk spreader on the f350
2. Two office staff answering two phones, not myself anymore
3. One office person logs a master log of each location signed in/out.
4. 24/7 accessible salt pile more local, much more bagged salt on hand at my house and garage 17 miles apart from each other.
5. Extra 1/2 ton truck, 7'6" plow, extra bagged spreader on this truck
6. More stakes at locations, hammerdrill ones in curb corners
7. Keep crew on exact routes, not jumping from one to the other, didnt have much control over this last storm due to two drivers noshows.
8. Two new drivers, reliable friends now over normal employees, hires or craigslist "i plowed for 20 years guys"

Its probably over kill now but at least i know we'd be more ready for the next 20"+ storm that hits.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ppandr;972830 said:


> Ditto....After your last billing debauchery I am not suprised of additional problems. Are you a direct service provider and own the equipment listed below or do you sub out? Owner or employee? It baffles me how anyone in an ownership or management position could be this far removed from your clients.


Yes we deal directly with 90% of the jobs, only a couple are subbed and a few things through USM. We own all the equipment and nothing is subbed out from us down. I am the owner. What do you mean by removed from your clients? I deal directly with them, not the office and i'm "just the owner".


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

buckwheat_la;972691 said:


> simply stated, isn't it up to the contractee, to know who is hired for snow removal, i have been double booked before too, not my fault, not the fault of the other contractor either. it is the responsibilty of the owner/property manager to be up on what is going on, with that being said, be understanding here, if there is a honest mistake, and they pay you up, give them a break getting out of their contract, they well hopefully remember you for it.


Well we just want to be paid on time. If they decide theyre not going to pay the bill, were going to run into problems then.

someone else asked if the owner would give us the other contractors name/number. I have not asked, but i doubt it, he seems to be reluctant to even talk about the other contractor, what he is billing, the amounts, the times or the type of services, type of plowing dates etc. He stays away from speaking about it at all... so maybe it is all made up. I could call today and ask, cant hurt.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

How many machines do you have running every storm?


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

subscribed


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Ramairfreak98ss;972840 said:


> Yeah, as much backup as i think we have its obviously not enough. We've only handled commercial now this is the 4th or 5th season. Although things didnt go smooth last year, i thought i eliminated most of it with more equipment, better accounts, not so much work subbed to us now besides a couple....
> 
> And yes we've moved forward very fast with snow removal, clients, invoicing, imcome etc. Started as only a set of accounts added for our one truck over top of a whole residential sector route, 2nd season expanded to 4-6 of our own small accounts and still the subbed work to us. Added 2nd truck, do more than doubled previous year.
> 
> ...


Thats some very fast growth in 5 years. You stated in your first year 1 truck, than year 2 you doubled and addd another truck. Year 3 you say you doubled again so I assume you added 2 more trucks. Year 4, I assume you added the JD 4720 and had some more growth, and now in year 5 you are adding 2 more trucks and a skid steer. It seems to me with your growth in year 5 you should have had the 2 trucks and skid before the season started. Each time you double your business in one years time, it gets far more complicated. going from 1 to 2, easy, 2 to 4 interesting, 4 to8 a huge leap, from there you better have all your ducks lined up, or you will crash and burn.
I dont get why you have 2 office staff with 2 phones, you really should not be getting that may calls. With all our equipment and clients, we have 1 person taking the calls. One piece of advice, make sure the client has no issues with the service, that way they have nothing to bargin with when they get their bill. Good luck with the rest of the season


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Italiano67;972044 said:



> Do you have ANY accounts where is everything is going well?


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

I agree with Paul, The only time I get any calls or emails from my commericals is when I specifically send them an email asking how everything is going and if there happy with everything we have been doing... And as always they send one back saying great job keep up the good work.... Do you have alot of residential properties which are where the whiners are ?


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Thanks Paul for decoding his long long posts that are so full of information that you could easily get a headache reading them.

I don't know what to say after reading about all of your issues, you make plowsite more fun if that means anything.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

JohnnyRoyale;972983 said:


> subscribed


...Me too...I cant get enough of his issues...


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

Ramairfreak98ss;972840 said:


> ...
> 6. More stakes at locations, hammerdrill ones in curb corners
> .


wow, you actually bore holes into the curbs? I assume this was done because employees were hitting the curbs? why not just instruct the employees to slow down and stay 2' away from the islands?

your experiences sound very similar to a friend of mine that has the worst luck, he was always growing his business but didn't realize the little things necessary to maintain that growth without problems. 70% of his problems stemmed from employees (craigslist "plowed 20 years" and boy can they screw you quick.

concentrate on getting GOOD help, keep them happy (even if it means you make less) and the rest will fall into place.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

dlcs;972135 said:


> Have you ever went by the name Bobbygedd over on Lawnsite?


double ditto!:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

JD Dave;972852 said:


> How many machines do you have running every storm?


2 and 4-6 trucks depending on how much snow... not a huge operation here but more than just one truck


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

How in the world do you possbily need 2 full time office staff for a 2-4 truck operation?

I run a 2 truck operation with a tractor, and I get pissed off if my phone rings more then twice a day, summer or winter


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Neige;972995 said:


> Thats some very fast growth in 5 years. You stated in your first year 1 truck, than year 2 you doubled and addd another truck. Year 3 you say you doubled again so I assume you added 2 more trucks. Year 4, I assume you added the JD 4720 and had some more growth, and now in year 5 you are adding 2 more trucks and a skid steer. It seems to me with your growth in year 5 you should have had the 2 trucks and skid before the season started. Each time you double your business in one years time, it gets far more complicated. going from 1 to 2, easy, 2 to 4 interesting, 4 to8 a huge leap, from there you better have all your ducks lined up, or you will crash and burn.
> I dont get why you have 2 office staff with 2 phones, you really should not be getting that may calls. With all our equipment and clients, we have 1 person taking the calls. One piece of advice, make sure the client has no issues with the service, that way they have nothing to bargin with when they get their bill. Good luck with the rest of the season


Thanks for the advice. The 2nd office person will be for timestamps for trucks in/out of sites. It seemed with this bad storm, too many clients were calling for an extra plow or wanted to know when the last time the lot was done... i couldnt always have the answer, especially on the phone that instant. Not knowing when that plow driver last plowed that property etc... This will surely make it easier in the future. The other person will just be for the general line. Sure we dont get that many calls commercially, but then we received over 300 calls from the residential sector just that sunday morning.. the phone kept dying because it rang constantly, i mean 100% of the time that morning it didnt stop ringing, i couldnt even use the blackberry myself. I guess our yellowpages ad for snow removal works... just definitly not the way id like it to "commercial clients and for contracts", all the calls were for "we want the driveway done 1hr ago and for $30" lol.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Grn Mtn;973173 said:


> wow, you actually bore holes into the curbs? I assume this was done because employees were hitting the curbs? why not just instruct the employees to slow down and stay 2' away from the islands?
> 
> your experiences sound very similar to a friend of mine that has the worst luck, he was always growing his business but didn't realize the little things necessary to maintain that growth without problems. 70% of his problems stemmed from employees (craigslist "plowed 20 years" and boy can they screw you quick.
> 
> concentrate on getting GOOD help, keep them happy (even if it means you make less) and the rest will fall into place.


Well in the expansion joint but we've put some in a bored hole if its a problematic curb that juts out and gets hit too often.

I think most of the issues in the big storms just come from employees... too many hours behind the wheel, not enough experience "with us or in general or both".

Not letting myself off the hook, im responsible for the backbone of everything, but slow/new employees and/or with too little experience hold up everything tremendously.

We pay descent too.. i get a flood of emails for jobs for $10.00hr for laborers just to help salt sidewalks/shovel here and there or run a snow blower around.. but our lowest paid guy this season was $13.00hr, rest are $15.00hr, all drivers/operators get $20-30/hr

with that said, the 20$/hr guys are worth $10-15 and the $30/hr guys are worth $50+ for their work output. I just cant seem to find more reliable guys that are $30/hr guys.

Trust me, $30/hr drivers can make us $250/hr
$20/hr drivers make us $100/hr

So yeah, i dont bat an eye at the hourly rate if it comes down to it. Of course everyone wants $30 if you talk about wages, so everyone is $20 besides 2 of them.


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## TKLAWN (Jan 20, 2008)

is this even possible??


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Does anyone know you on the forum and in person?


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## skyview52 (Sep 13, 2009)

Good Lord, I have spent 20 minutes reading this entire post and my head hurts. Please tell us straight up what is going on. There is some great talent on here that could definitely help you. I think you need to grab control of your company. Getting rid of the two office staff is a must; especially if they do not know the in and outs of plowing and are your direct contact to your account representatives. It will probably save you a ton on office costs as well.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=297798

read this i think it will shed alot of light on the situation


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## bonerigo.1 (Nov 9, 2004)

Sounds like you are trying to throw money at a problem that is much deeper than an equipment/employee issue. Extra equipment, extra office staff, and extra employees wont solve the deeper issues you are encountering. Pricing and problems with good quality service are the issues. You dont have the experience to properly price the job and the constant complaints of late payments are because you are running short on cash. The good quality service probably can't be reached because you don't have the experience to provide the service. Im not saying you can't run a plow truck; but to efficiently clear a property, salt a property, and complete all little details (sidewalks, corners, pushback) you must have a solid background. Quick growth does not equal a solid foundation to build the business. Therefore if I were close (ie your competitors) I would be paying close attention to how your properties are maintained. As they say "its ripe for the picking!"


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## ppandr (Dec 16, 2004)

1. Blah, Blah, Blahbby, Blah
2. Blah, Blah, Blah,Blah
3. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah....


After a few days this is not even funny anymore....


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

RamAir, 

GROWING PAINS are normal. However, you seem to be having an abnormally hard time with them. Heres how we've avoided alot of the issues you're having and I'll throw in ideas to help you now being in the pickle you're in.

This season we have grown approximately 35%, which is too much without the systems in place to support the growth, I mean admin and production and HR. In the past 3 years we were running way under capacity, trucks sitting etc. This was because we had enough of our core services sold to carry through the winter, and a serious lack of expierienced sales force. So this year with our core services suffering with the economy snow was an oppurtunity to recover revenue. We were fortunate to have vehicles available and the financial resources to add 2 salters. We spent an enormous amount of time brainstorming amongst ourselves, between the owner, GM and myself we have 60 + years of NJ snow expierience, we thought about the what ifs/ how to's and can we reallys of the additional work. We spent hours developing relationships with subs, rekindling old ones and reveiwed it all repeatedly. We made absolutely sure we had our contracts worded the way we needed them and there were no misunderstandings about service expectations, prices or anything else we could have foreseen. We ran into things that we didn't expect, we ran into things that didn't work, but we had enough depth to adapt. The biggest thing we have that it appears you are missing is the expierience, with 60+ yrs there isn't alot we havent dealt with along the way.

Now your problems- What I'd do-

Review all of your contracts right now before any more weather hits, ask questions, get answers, and answer any questions yor clients have - RIGHT NOW. If people are dropping you or if you're dropping anyone get it ALL IN WRITING. Clarifications should be in writing too...........if the contract/spec isn't 1000% clear.

Realize the storm that seems to have given you the most trouble is a rarity for the region, would you have had the same production issues in an average storm, probably not, but be realistic. Review the admin/logistics for everything since it seems on the contract/admin side it wasn't the size of the storm that was your issue.

Thin the office staff during storms, with a 2 machine and 4-6 truck operation you can't possibly have a need for 2 in the office, if 1 can't handle it you have the wrong one. It's an overhead you don't need. Oganize your stuff into 2 or more routes, give your best guy one, keep the other yourself and focus on it, keep up with him on how things are going but don't take every call for his routes yourself if you're out working the storm. If you are expecting yourself to be in a production role you can't effectively manage it all with the level of expierience you state you've got.

Review your guys time sheets and compare to standard production times, be sure your guys are working the properties right. Then look at where you're short, where you might have too much committed, adjust and if you're still short get a sub or two. Do the same for machines, and sidewalk crews, this will save you the "where are you guys" calls, will keep people happier and may save you money too........

Good Luck...............


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## BillyRgn (Jan 28, 2004)

A problem like the loader with a 16ft pusher plowing the mall across the street and pushing the snow across the street burying the entrance of your account, needed to be taken care of right then and there. There was no reason you needed to pull equipment and man power from other accounts to clean up someone else's screw up. I would have gone across the street and talked to the loader operator, I am pretty sure he wouldn't plow you in on purpose. I would tell him that he had to clear the mess because for one it was his fault, two it is against the law to push across the street and three it is the right thing to do (fixing his mistake). If you do not let him know about the problem and keep cleaning it up your self, chances are it is going to happen again. As far as the liquor store, stick to your guns, you have a contract and you did the work, you need to get payed period. As far as good workers, they are really tough to come by, so when you find good ones take care of them so they feel obligated to show up, work and stay with your company. Good luck-


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## KBTConst (Oct 25, 2009)

Is this what your head feels like when you have been in a tornado? spinning round and round


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## wirenut (Jan 16, 2004)

are they family members ?


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

BillyRgn;975669 said:


> A problem like the loader with a 16ft pusher plowing the mall across the street and pushing the snow across the street burying the entrance of your account, needed to be taken care of right then and there. There was no reason you needed to pull equipment and man power from other accounts to clean up someone else's screw up. I would have gone across the street and talked to the loader operator, I am pretty sure he wouldn't plow you in on purpose. I would tell him that he had to clear the mess because for one it was his fault, two it is against the law to push across the street and three it is the right thing to do (fixing his mistake). If you do not let him know about the problem and keep cleaning it up your self, chances are it is going to happen again. As far as the liquor store, stick to your guns, you have a contract and you did the work, you need to get payed period. As far as good workers, they are really tough to come by, so when you find good ones take care of them so they feel obligated to show up, work and stay with your company. Good luck-


They probably DID plow it in on purpose... i've never seen this mistake in the past... no one ive talked to has ever had that done to their company either.

Their crew was gone, their loaders were sitting there, no one was around, cops couldnt find them either so we got a incident report.

I would have much rather our crew found one of their company operators, and had them clean up the mess... i could have only wished for that scenario though. We called them twice and the girl we spoke to both times said she'd call us right back, both times. third time another hour later, no answer..... cant wait for their stupidity.


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## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

I don't know. I must be doing something wrong, because I can't see how anyone could pay $30 per hour to a driver of your own truck and make $250 per hour with that truck. $250 an HOUR??? I'm sorry,..there are just too many things that don't add up here.


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## exmark1 (Nov 30, 2005)

Runner;977166 said:


> I don't know. I must be doing something wrong, because I can't see how anyone could pay $30 per hour to a driver of your own truck and make $250 per hour with that truck. $250 an HOUR??? I'm sorry,..there are just too many things that don't add up here.


That's what I was thinking too.... Either you are screwing someone or making that up!


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## BillyRgn (Jan 28, 2004)

Ramairfreak98ss;977111 said:


> They probably DID plow it in on purpose... i've never seen this mistake in the past... no one ive talked to has ever had that done to their company either.
> 
> Their crew was gone, their loaders were sitting there, no one was around, cops couldnt find them either so we got a incident report.
> 
> I would have much rather our crew found one of their company operators, and had them clean up the mess... i could have only wished for that scenario though. We called them twice and the girl we spoke to both times said she'd call us right back, both times. third time another hour later, no answer..... cant wait for their stupidity.


that's different I didn't realize they were gone and what happened with the phone. I would have pushed the police more and made them track them down, especially so it doesn't happen again. I might have had the police pursue it as an illegal dumping, witch would give them a fine and an obligation to pay for the clean up, however it would be tough to prove. However if you have a cop that is a friend, then I am sure you could prove it. The question you have to ask your self is if you want there to be tension between yourself and the other company, but what ever you decide I would do something to make sure it does not happen again.


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## ppandr (Dec 16, 2004)

Ramairfreak98ss;977111 said:


> They probably DID plow it in on purpose... i've never seen this mistake in the past... no one ive talked to has ever had that done to their company either.
> 
> Their crew was gone, their loaders were sitting there, no one was around, cops couldnt find them either so we got a incident report.
> 
> I would have much rather our crew found one of their company operators, and had them clean up the mess... i could have only wished for that scenario though. We called them twice and the girl we spoke to both times said she'd call us right back, both times. third time another hour later, no answer..... cant wait for their stupidity.


They probably read this post......:laughing::laughing::laughing:

And yes I know it was before you posted this thread


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Well a quick update.

Spoke to the owner twice in the last week. Seems to want us to "bid his landscape maintenance" for the year so that he can possibly give that work to us... in respect to him not wanting to pay his full invoice for the december 2009 snow.

The other contractor DID bill them for the entire storm start to finish just as we did. The store owner of the canal's liquor store feels that he should pay each of us "half" , because he does not want to pay out both companies. The other company is billing for all services, yet never did anything.

If i was in thier position and my crews were hitting the location, id surely bill for it anyway if we were on contract. 

Either way, this is going to end up in court. The owner seems like a nice guy too, but he NEEDs to take care of this situation on his own, it has nothing to do with us or our plowing services. If he somehow had double booked companies, and the other company wants their money too, even though they never did anything, hes going to have to pay or go to court with everyone.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Runner;977166 said:


> I don't know. I must be doing something wrong, because I can't see how anyone could pay $30 per hour to a driver of your own truck and make $250 per hour with that truck. $250 an HOUR??? I'm sorry,..there are just too many things that don't add up here.


Its easy.

Property #1, in time 5:00am, out time 5:10am, $95 for salt 
prop #2 in time 5:18am, out time 5:28am, $115 for salt
prop #3 in time 5:37am, out time 5:49am $130 for salt

$340 and 11 minutes to spare

We can service 2-3 $100-175 per push properties in under an hour all storm long.

So half of you are saying were "so high" and ripping customers off, and the others are saying were lowballing accounts and even brickmans is tons higher


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

$250 / hour minus $200 in salt expense LOL

Heck everyone can easily make over $1000 - $1500 / hour salting... 

But I find it pretty hard to belive your servicing 3 - $150 per push locations in an hour......


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## Snow Princess (Mar 4, 2009)

Ramairfreak98ss;972345 said:


> And think of it this way, if your crew shows up to plow the property under contract, and its already plowed, Id certainly charge them for a plow anyway, but id get it cleared up prior to the next storm.
> 
> Lets just say that the other contractor plowed our lot 100% of the storm, our crew shows up several times and its done and so we don't get paid anything for that storm? If we are contracted for the work, damn straight were going to be paid for the site.


Thats dishonest but your karma would be since you took credit when someone falls and the lawsuit smacks you in the face and your only out is another company plowed....it will be funny trying to see you explain why the check was written to you.

Your a bad guy. Im not the only one who feels that way. You really need to go plow in Canada or something--they would eat you alive up there!


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Snow Princess;1021005 said:


> Thats dishonest but your karma would be since you took credit when someone falls and the lawsuit smacks you in the face and your only out is another company plowed....it will be funny trying to see you explain why the check was written to you.
> 
> Your a bad guy. Im not the only one who feels that way. You really need to go plow in Canada or something--they would eat you alive up there!


you really have a Hate On for Ramair, don't you? Although i don't agree with charging full price for work already done, i would say that the client has a obligation to pay for travel charges, etc for double booking. Not sure if you caught that part of the thread, but if i had to show up with my equipment all the time, and still find a place done, i would be pissed too.( and i bet you also would be)


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## Snow Princess (Mar 4, 2009)

My gripe with him is he always complains but never does anything about it--no I wouldnt charge for the plowing and salt and that--he said or implied he wanted to be paid that. The first time I get wanting to be compensated for travel but the FIRST TIME you see that lot done you address it. it wasnt because it took him submitting his bill and the client seeing two to get the gears moving. Happened to me in Dec. My driver immediately called and said another truck was in the lot we addressed it--figured out the guy had a wrong address and it was handled on the spot. You gotta police yourself before jumping all over people and I have read his posts and see him doing it all the time. He needs to step back and see the whole picture and what his role is in things as well. 

I dont hate on anyone you guys are all my snow buds but when I think your going down an odd path I'm gonna tell you my opinion--take it or leave it


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Snow Princess;1021005 said:


> Thats dishonest but your karma would be since you took credit when someone falls and the lawsuit smacks you in the face and your only out is another company plowed....it will be funny trying to see you explain why the check was written to you.
> 
> Your a bad guy. Im not the only one who feels that way. You really need to go plow in Canada or something--they would eat you alive up there!


your a bad lady. grow the @#[email protected] up.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Snow Princess;1021029 said:


> My gripe with him is he always complains but never does anything about it--no I wouldnt charge for the plowing and salt and that--he said or implied he wanted to be paid that. The first time I get wanting to be compensated for travel but the FIRST TIME you see that lot done you address it. it wasnt because it took him submitting his bill and the client seeing two to get the gears moving. Happened to me in Dec. My driver immediately called and said another truck was in the lot we addressed it--figured out the guy had a wrong address and it was handled on the spot. You gotta police yourself before jumping all over people and I have read his posts and see him doing it all the time. He needs to step back and see the whole picture and what his role is in things as well.
> 
> I dont hate on anyone you guys are all my snow buds but when I think your going down an odd path I'm gonna tell you my opinion--take it or leave it


I said hypothetically if this happened id still bill for that one time. But of course we'd address the issue.

This WHOLE thread is about this client SUPPOSEDLY having another company servicing the lot too. They NEVER did though. ok, NEVER. The crew NEVER saw ANY indication that another company was plowing OR salting the ENTIRE time.

AND to even prove my point. The client asked US if we saw XBWZ company at 3am on such and such date because we billed them 1am-5am for loader hours. I had a guy onsite with the tractor moving piles back and the XBWZ company claimed they salted during that SAME day at 3am... why dont you call this unknown company, and put the hate on them for being a bad business and a bad person and stop griping to me about why we want to be paid for 100% of the work performed?


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

Ramairfreak98ss;974546 said:


> all the calls were for "we want the driveway done 1hr ago and for $30" lol.


you set your self up for that with whatever type of ad you ran. What does the ad say? Driveways starting at $30?

I call BS on the 300 calls.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ALC-GregH;1022939 said:


> you set your self up for that with whatever type of ad you ran. What does the ad say? Driveways starting at $30?
> 
> I call BS on the 300 calls.


We have a lot of advertising in phone book, yellowpages, print ads, flyers etc. Ok, 200-250 calls ya happy  Seriously it killed my blackberry a few times before i could get it back on a charger in a truck. It rang constant for the whole morning that storm.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Well a quick update.

The company finally has sent us a certified letter, its a "statement" for us to fill out and return.

It obviously was written by an attorney. 

I can only assume one of two things.

A. this somehow is a legal way in order for this liquor store company to "not" have to pay the other contractor that supposedly charged them their own fees for plowing, which again, if they too have a contract signed, the store is liable for all charges, weather they cleared snow physically or not. 

B. This is being done "not" because of anything to do with finances and payment of their bill, but they are/were/ or going to be sued for a slip and fall. I'd assume by the text below that because they have not paid us in "full" for 100% of the services from this date, that they could currently be open to a lawsuit themselves and not know who to "blame" because of this. Im going to have to have the attorney read this over now just to make sure im not indicating that we were the ONLY company who ever plowed this site for these dates. Since they stated another company did "some" work, who's to say that that company didnt do something when when we wern't on the site?

Here it is.
---------------------------------------------

Herein, the property at xxxx rt 130, smithandjohn, NJ shal be referred to as "the site".

At any time, I, "ramairfreak", shall provide the requested information diligently and professionally within ten )10) business days of receipt of the request, which shall be delivered by certified mail with return receipt. If i miss the delivery, then i shal make necessary arragements with the USPS to receive the mail within 5 business days.

1. For the snow blizzard on December 19th 2009, "ramairfreak company" was the only company that provided the snow cleaning services at the site. No other snow cleaning service provider cleaned snow at the site.
2. Below is a list of the information to verify the above statement (please list them in the blank space below):


3. For the snow storm on December 19th 2009, "ramairfreak company" was the only company that provided the ice control operations, including the salt applications, at the site. No other snow cleaning service provider provided the ice control operations at the site.
4. Below is a list of information to verify the above statement (please list them in the blank space below):


5. No other snow leaning service provider was present during the times that "ramairfreak company" provided services at the site ----which they were not, but apparently the other company billed salt/plowing at the direct time that we were on site at one point throughout this storm. This company also apparently billed them several services for this date and didnt even provide times and which services were provided or inch accumulation totals or notes for the whole days of Dec 19th and 20th.  Joe blow snow company? ok back ot the contract

I, "ramairfreak", hereby confirm that all information on this statement and all information, which i have provided by e-mails, facsimilies, invoices, and mails, are both true and correct.

I need to sign and date

I need a witness to sign and date..


So do you think its for this liquor store to sue the other contractor so they cancel their invoice to use in court?


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Sounds to me that they're trying to get you to commit to somthing on paper for a lawsuite.

Good luck Bossman


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## hairygary (Feb 19, 2009)

Ramairfreak98ss;1040317 said:


> Well a quick update.
> 
> The company finally has sent us a certified letter, its a "statement" for us to fill out and return.
> 
> ...


They are very specific about dec 19 and it seems that you may be disputing dec 19 and 20. This leads me to believe what you stated that there is some sort of lawsuit involved and they want you to commit to being the provider. my only other thinking due to their legal language is they want you to sign this to go after the other company in a civil suit, but most businesses would not go this far to help you out with payment, unless you have already threatened legel action with a letter from a lawyer already. So if you had a lawyer send a letter for payment I believe this is for payment, but if you dont have a lawyer already involved then there is some kind of other claim against the business.


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