# The industry changed (lowballers included)



## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

I wrote another post about how Im finally leaving the snow business and Im happy about it.

Just some observations.

Ive noticed in both this and the landscape business that the industry as a whole has changed. Everyday you see the same 2 threads pop up. "New to the business, asked to bid HUGE commercial job, how do I do it?" and "Dam lowballers took my huge commercial job.

Lowballing by definition is not what we experience. We are not dealing with lowballers.
Lowballing is a strategic planned manuever that a company does for a specific purpose.

Example. I knew in a year that a municipality was going to sealcoat (my main business) six figures worth of blacktop and I wanted the bid. One of the requirements for the bid was to already have experience with municipal work. Did not have to be sealcoating. You just had to be an experienced municipal contractor.

Well, I wasnt a municipal contractor. However the neighboring town had bids out for mowing work that year. That would make me a municipal contractor.
I knew the price for the mowing since its public information. 

I intentially bid that job low, break even or a small loss, and won the bid.

That bid, a small loss, got me the municipal certification, and then I was able to bid and win the job I wanted at a very nice profit.

To the lawn guy that did it before, I was a "lowballer" and I was. But it was a strategic move done on purpose.


What we are seeing is 2 things. One, guys that have no clue how to bid. If you have to come online and ask how to bid, you dont know what you are doing. And guys who do know what they are doing but need cashflow, and need to make payments, and HAVE to get work to keep the lights on, even if in the end its only prolonging the loss.


Years ago when I started you had 2 types of contractors. The driveway guys, who did their residential and maybe a small lot or two. Then you had your big contractors that did the condo complexes and big lots.

It took a long time and it was a slow process to get your business to the point where the big places would ALLOW you to submit a bid. And if you did, you had to be ready to PROVE that you had the experience and ability. I remember days that the management company would come to your shop to see your equipment. Actually call your references, and want a detailed snow management plan.

The commercial market was a closed club. You had your handful of contractors that did them all. 

If someone came in and bid cheap, they werent even considered.

Over the years it has changed.

Property managers are under intense pressure to cut costs everywhere.

One thing they did was start entertaining bids from contractors that before would not be allowed to bid. Some of these guys can handle the work, some cant. 
Condo board members started seeing bids from these new guys and decided to take a shot.

They had been paying 50k a year for snow for the last 10 years and now a bunch of new companies are offering to do it for 30. For 20k they took the shot.
Some companies pulled off the work, and did a good job. Others not so well.
When it came time for bids again. Managers and boards, if they were not happy, now had in their mind their property was not a 50k property. The target price was 30.

So if they were not happy with the service, they didnt go back to the big guys at 50, they searched out a new guy who could hopefully do the job at 30.

Many contractors, who before, plowing a big condo or box store was just a dream, were now getting the opportunity to bid those jobs. Many wet their pants at the prosepect of becoming one of the "big boys" and the money became secondary. They just wanted the job to be able to say they had it. Some had no clue if they were making money or losing. Some knew it was cheap or a loss and didnt care, figuring taking this job, even at a loss, would open up more big jobs to them.

Now more and more guys enter the business, and its now a business without the barriers.

The big boys have to lower their price to get work at all

The customers are used to paying less every year and are not going to go back to the old prices.

Everytime a new guy hears the price of a property, and he goes in "Just $1000 less than the guy last year, he brings the price of that job down. 10 years of guys doing that brought that job down 10,000 and the customer now is used to it.

Enter USM and the other nationals. They realized this. They know that there are thousands of guys out there with a plow and a dream of being bigtime plowing their local walmart.

They find this whole market of contractors that dont care about the money nearly as much as they care about being able to say they have the job.

The nationals live on these contractors. Their customers are saving piles of money, and their only standard to a "good job" is whether or not the store is losing sales.

The nationals know that most of these new contractors, may be in over their head, but manage to do enough of a job, so as to not affect their customers sales. Appearance, quality, doesnt matter as long as that car pulling into walmart, makes it in the store and doesnt turn around.

The nationals write their contracts in such a way that they and their customer are 100% protected. These are contracts that nobody who is very experienced in the business would sign. Send one to a lawyer and he would tell you, you are nuts to sign it.

They hire you. You sign a contract that gives up all your collection rights, that guarentees that you and your insurance company will take on 100% liability, and will pay for USM and Walmarts lawyers should they be sued also.

The contract is 100% in their favor, and you go to work just on the HOPE that you will get paid.

So what just happened?

The customer gets the job done for 25% what it should cost and has no risk or liability.
The contractor signs the contract because he wants the job that bad
In most cases the contractor does enough of a job to not affect the store sales
Whether or not he is making money is secondary

By the time he realizes he cant cover costs at that price, the season is over, he made it through, the customer is happy. USM made a boatload, Walmart saved a boatload.

Next year, there will be a whole new group of guys right behind you wetting their pants to take that job.

The whole standard of the industry has changed.

The stress of the work has changed.

Years ago, you knew you were charging a premium and the customer had high expectations. The stress was providing the premium service to justify the premium price you were charging. In the end, you were well rewarded for your hard work at the end of the season.

Now the stress is how to pull of the job and cover the costs. How to make payroll and pay for $4.00 a gallon fuel with one blizzard after another.

Customers that no longer treat you like a respected contractor, but as a bottom feeder. 
Customers that have the attitude that you should feel lucky they chose you out of hundreds. And there are hundreds standing in line to take the job. Thats their new attitude.

Its easy to vent and complain. But the truth is, I dont believe the times we are having now will change. I dont think the tactic of "wait it out, they'll go out of business" will work.

In the end, that 50k job will never again be a 50k job. The expectations have been lowered. The barriers to entry gone. And its a new market that you will either have to figure out how to compete at the new standards, or find another line of work.


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

good post. Client education, excellent service, and relationships are about the only way to fend them off. Good luck to all of the snow removers providing good service, at a fair price. the one's that don't understand their true costs and are small outfits can be beaten, or they will beat themself.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Yep. My point is to recognize it and be prepared. The pressure will be on the good guys to figure out how to compete and profit.


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## Steiner (Dec 5, 2010)

*It is happening everywhere......*

Enter USM and the other nationals. They realized this. They know that there are thousands of guys out there with a plow and a dream of being bigtime plowing their local walmart.

This is exactly what happening in the food production industry/farming. Large companies are monopolizing the exchange between the customers lot and the contractor.


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## KEC Maintaince (Jan 1, 2011)

Procut please dont take this post as a bash but you said it your self you lowballed to get something even tho you might have broke even or lost money and you did it on purpose. 
So you lowered the bar in that area to secure your self something else now so instead of the town also paying more you now set the standard there . 
isnt that how it starts one guy does it and he seems to think its ok so now every one must pay. 
the new guys who i have seen come on these forums are bashed first by experienced people instead of helped.
guys tore me up because of what i do. i dont do big commercial ( dont want to ) i do resi and next yr doing a few small churches and DR offices .
these jobs im bidding on i know all the people and they want me to do it and yes they want a break on the price. 
i will look at the old contracts and decide for myself if the prices are fair i can tell you right now some are crazy high but i will not be any lower i might add some services and do a better job .
trust me im not about to lowball 
Every industry has changed if you think landscape and snow removal is bad construction is worse. 
what were looking at here is the clientel has also changed they are more bidder friendly and just like any industry 
You get what you pay for.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

You're right. I put the lowballer part in there because its a term that's misused on these boards.

Lowballing implies that the contractor knows how to bid in the first place and intentionally submits a low price for a specific purpose.

That's rare.

Bidding and pricing is by far the easiest part of the business. Yet it seems to be such a mystery to so many.

I can't even imagine trying to take on a big job if you can't figure out the most basic part of it.

Guys come on here and want someone to tell them how much to charge when its impossible.

Unless they want to include their tax return and business books for us to look at.

Its frustrating because the competition has changed. Years ago you bid against other experienced qualified companies and numbers were somewhat close. Then the best salesman won.

Now the guy with a fleet, established, experienced, proven is put up against a rookie who doesn't have a clue how he came up with his price. Somebody online told him to charge a dollar a minute.

Years ago that guy would have been told to go back, learn the business, and come back when you're ready to be taken seriously.

But now the customers view both as equals. Instead of the rookie figuring out how to compete with the experienced guys, its the other way around.

Brickman is being asked to compete with Tommy's roofing, siding, auto repair, dog walking, and lawn mowing .

The market is what it is. Nobody is the bad guy so to speak.

I just think many are sitting back waiting for the good ol days to come back. And I don't see that as happening.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Procut, you make some valid point and some that are way off.

USM is the one winning with Walmart, even though I know for a fact Walmart is dropping them after this season. They aren't saving Walmart much, but some paperwork. Yes people are doing them for 25%, but USM is making the other 75%. Either way it doesn't matter the end result is the same.

I do believe that prices will come back, but it isn't going to be next year. It's going to be several years from now and I know many of us aren't going to hold out that long. In my area prices haven't fallen as much on the commercial side. People around here are still paying a premium and I guess that's a good thing. That being said we don't use the equipment 14 days in a row like some other areas of the country.

All in all everyone needs to look at their costs. We all had to start somewhere, but everyone needs to make money on every job. By not doing so hurts the industry, which will in turn hurt ourselves.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

You make some good points... that said there is still money out there, but you have to find the right clients, be efficient, have the right staff in place. You are correct about the big box, big lots, etc, pricing is down on them. If you think outside the box, you can do OK though, that said Im just about done with mowing, unless somthing happens, pricing hasnt moved in almost 10 years, mower prices are up 25%, fuel is up 300 % (was about $ 1/gal, back then). It has become a loss for us, just do to make money off the other added on services.


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## bhmjwp (Dec 12, 2005)

Excellent post! I have never bid on box stores or w/the Nationals. I have been forwarded contracts for consideration from nationals-forwarded to my insurance company, and have been rejected. With the notation that if I elect to accept, I would have to write a policy with another company. This is with both my W/C and General Liability Co's.

Makes me always wonder how many sub's really have coverage, whether they think so or not. Call me faint hearted-but I have never signed a contract not reviewed by my Insurance providers.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

bhmjwp;1240291 said:


> Makes me always wonder how many sub's really have coverage,.


Not many and even less will admit that!

Also my definition of a lowballer is.......... One who goes in to bid a job. Asks what the lowest bid is and then cut that without doing any other looksie at what is needed to do the job.

It happens in roofing, lawn work, home repair and most other labor intensive markets.

I had my floors replaced with wood throughout the entire house and had the windows replaced. 5 guys that came to bid that was the 1st thing they asked, "What are the others charging" without even asking what kind of flooring or windows I wanted. They were shown the door and I waited until a professional that did not ask one question about other companies bid on what I wanted.

It may have cost me more, but I got what I wanted with no problems and he has since returned to check his work 3 times without me asking. If I have any other work done it will probably be with him again.

Same goes with the mechanic I use for jobs I can not do myself on the truck. He charges a higher hourly rate then most, but, the work is done correctly the 1st time and the small extras he does without even telling me sometimes makes it worth it plus I can trust him 100%.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

excellent post. totally agree

Prices are not coming back


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## RichG53 (Sep 16, 2008)

We are dealing with rough times ..

Prices will come back...They will have to, not many will be left to do bidding..


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

I do agree. At some point they will level out. I dont think they will ever get back where they were but they wont go to zero either.


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## cold_and_tired (Dec 18, 2008)

RichG53;1240438 said:


> We are dealing with rough times ..
> 
> Prices will come back...They will have to, not many will be left to do bidding..


I don't think they will. Idiots and bad business practices do not come in waves. When one goes out of business, there will be another to take his/her place.

I know my costs. If someone wants to do it cheaper, they can have it. I would rather go broke sitting on a beach than plowing snow.


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## nor'easter1 (Jan 28, 2003)

pro cut, congragulations you just got your life back and I think you know it. When I started out 18 years ago I loved the plowing part and could do it every day. As time goes on you just get worn out in all aspects menatally and physically. Realiticaslly snow plowing/ice control to me know is a way to bill customers to pay my bills and not a lot more. Great profit customers are now temporary and every contractor on this forum or not should realize all it takes is a phone call from your top customers to send you over the "cliff". For those of you that don't believe that you will it is fact. I would give a lot to go back to that feeling 18 years ago when I bought my first plow and loved every minute of snow and how proud I felt to be a plower!


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## snowplowpro (Feb 7, 2006)

i hope im not changing the subject here but you guys talk about how there cutting costs but were i am i hear alot about these places making there one set price for the season and thats supposed to include everything or just plowing .
a friend of mine was asked to bid on a church and he went and look at the lot .
he talked to the manger or person in charge and that person said well we only pay 3000 for the season thats are set price.

so what i am getting at here is that supposed to include salting ,plowing ,shoveling sidewalks,and machine work god for bid we get a winter like we had this year you need to move piles back further i cant belive this stuff any more.


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

lilweeds;1240248 said:


> Procut, you make some valid point and some that are way off.
> 
> USM is the one winning with Walmart, even though I know for a fact Walmart is dropping them after this season. They aren't saving Walmart much, but some paperwork. Yes people are doing them for 25%, but USM is making the other 75%. Either way it doesn't matter the end result is the same.
> 
> ...


just curious how you know and what have you heard about the walmart contracts?


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## Bigfoot Brent (Mar 19, 2008)

procut1

I think you hit the nail on the head with that post. The trucking industry is pretty much the same now too unfortunately.


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## PowersTree (Jan 9, 2006)

I get called a low baller all the time.

Im new to running my own business, but not doing the work. Doing the work is the easy part. Figuring costs, how to bid, and all the paperwork end of it is the headache to me.

I can get the jobs done, as good or better than the big guy. I am still learning how to bid. We ask on here for advise, and then either get bashed, or get poor info, and then they ***** we "Lowballed" the job. Well instead of telling me I lowballed it, why dont ya teach me what the "going rate" is in my area, and then I wont be so low next time.

Not sure where I was going with that, but thats how some of us small, newer guys feel about it.


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## Turf Commando (Dec 16, 2007)

It's a fools paradise outhere, many willing to work for little... My pricing is higher then most, I'd rather have 10 jobs paying well, then 30 paying less...

The secret to survival is maintaing a good relationship with clients and good rep around ...


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Low Balling is low balling no matter how one tries to justify the reasons for doing so.

Every business/industry today has been forced to cut costs due to the economy.

Everyone may want a Rolls Royce, many can't afford one, and of the few that can, many of those won't spend their money for one, finding things they feel will bring them better value/return for their cash spent.

Just because after a snow storm one can plow a lot at a wall mart and make it look like it never snowed is not worth anything if the customer does not value such a good job. Just like the rich people that pass up on a rolls royce, the big corps feel that as long as the cutomers can drive into their parking lots and drive out without getting stuck their going to sell just as much to their customers as if there was no snow at all.

Not having a perfect plow job is not hurting their bottom line then they will not waste money to have a perfect plow job done.

Corporations are laying off people, forcing unions to make big give backs. Workers are doing the same or more work for less money.

But it seems to some people that snow removal people are above the rest of the this nations people getting squeezed.

The guy that does auto repair work on the side to start a real shop. The painter doing side work painting homes to build the capital to go legit. The guy that puts a printing press in his garage to do side work to eventually go full time.

Snow plowing and landscaping just like any other industry will always have solo part time guys with low costs trying to grow their business.

There are restaurants that can feed four people for $25. There are rest's that charge $250 per person.

The people go where they want to spend. Just because a 4star restaurant can make the best food if people don't value that service it can't be made worth it to them. Same with plowing.

White linen table cloths are nice but are not necessary.


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## Plow Babe (Feb 4, 2003)

It doesn't matter what one's business is, the fact is that things will always change. Business owners have to be able to recognize industry trends in order to adjust their business model. Decisions have to made to either go with the changes or get out. The right decision for one person is not necessarily the right decision for someone else, because besides the business factors, there are also personal factors to consider, which will be different for each individual. 

Over the years, we have upsized, downsized, added services, and dropped services, depending on what was happening in the industry as well as in our personal lives at the time. The one sure thing, besides death and taxes, is that change happens. It always has, and always will. How that change is handled is what makes each business unique.

To those who have decided to get out of the snow industry this year, all the best in whatever direction you go from here.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Many good thoughts in this thread. My business model is to keep the overhead low.. I do not lowball.. On a scale of 1 to 10 where 5 is an average.. I would be at 4.5.. I have lost some work because my price is "too high".. That is okay with me. If I cannot do it at a profit.. You will find me at the next driveway.


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## ppandr (Dec 16, 2004)

Whether it's plowing, trucking, landscaping, etc the numbers will come back....but it will take years, could be 5, could be 10. It is an economic cycle. As a country in general, we have created our own demise. We grew to fast, borrowed to much, and now we obviously are paying the price. We have become a society whereas we don't do anything on our own (we hire everyone), we drive 40-75k cars and trucks, live in houses 3x the size we really need. We are excessive. 

Unfortunately, I don't see a simple solution but I do see an extremely difficult road ahead. We have to be able to survive on our worst years business take. Personally I am bearly living month to month, as I know most of my friends are. Cut your overhead drastically. In my business (landscape construction/high end outdoor woodworking) we are going full circle back eleven years ao when I first started my business. Friday I decided I'm moving out of my 3500sf facility into a fraction of that space at my own home. I've already sold off more than half of my equipment, keeping what I truly only need. I've paid everything off over the years so I have very little overhead other than insurance. Increasing CASH sales and keeping more in my pocket. I was sucessful then on a shoestring budget and limited resources...and now I'm alot smarter and have a large network of clients. 

I have always been an optimist and see this as a opportunity to get back to building closer personal relationships with your clients and increasing the quality of your work. Two years ago I had 8 employees at nearly $1M in sales, this year I'll have two (one full/one part) and my goal is 300K. I've thoroughly done the numbers and I can reduce my overhead to peanuts compared to last year. MY employees will see no reduction in salary and end up with additional paid vacation if we come close to our numbers and I will pay myself almost double what I did the last two years.

Bottom line is...there is no more money coming in, you 've got to make it work with what you've got.


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## Dr Who (Dec 16, 2010)

Every Business,Industry or type of work, no matter what you call it is the same, people working for less just to work. You have to eat, you have to live and people will work for less to do so, its every were not just the lawn, snow, construction business but I think they are the worst. Every Tom, Dick and Speedy Gonzales with a shovel, push mower or hammer is out there working for peanuts just to make it from day to day.

The "good ol days" are ever coming back, you all that think this are just lieing to yourself. Even if the economy gets back on track and we have 0% unemployment, People will still most likely act as they did when the economy was in the tank, they will squeeze the pennies on every thing they do, be it getting there lawn cut, there drive cleared of snow or that roof replaced.

It will take 20-30 years before things would ever get back to the "good ol days" it they do, as it will be the younger generation that would be the ones paying the bills then, the kids that are to young to remember when the economy tanked. 
the rest of us, well you ever talked to some older person that lived through the great depression in the 30's? There still living about the same way they did then, saving ever thing they can and living as if there still in a the depression. It was our parents (for most of us) that got the economy/pay up there to were people make money doing service work, then we came along and bumped it up to high gear, then well we crashed. 
We are back to the mind set so to speak as people were in the 30's when it comes to spending money to have things done that they can not do there self.

Like others have said, if you try to wait out the storm (lowballers as you call them) you will be waiting a long time, one burns out and "dies" there are 2 more to take there place. There will always be someone out there with a shovel, or a truck that will clear snow for a few bucks to buy food. Then in the summer its the same, push mowers in the truck of Honda civics, charging 5.00 to mow a yard.

I quit the lawn business 2 years ago, was only in it for a short time, having the correct equipment and doing a professional job just don't hold a candle to a 20$ push mower and a 5.00 per cut!....

I know I will never make a lot of money in snow, we do not get that much to start with, I like doing it, I make some money (if people will pay me) but everything I have is paid for. I will not cut my own throat just to get the contracts, I will not take a contract that I know I can not do a good job on. I do not have to make money at snow, I do not have the payments to justify the work. My plow could sit for the next 100 years and I would not loose a dime. Sure I may be called a low baller, or be treated as on because I have one truck, I am a one man show, but I will still be out plowing when those of you that have large companies and tons of expense are starving or out of business. Not because I cut my prices to get your lots, but because my costs of doing business are way lower. I can pay all my expenses for a month in one storm, if not half of that storm, the rest is all profit. And yes I do have the proper insurance/license to operate a snow plow business in the state of Ky.

So when you sit there thinking about the good ol days, and how the one man shows are taking all the work cause they are low balling, think again. The large companies are just as much at fault, like others said, they are cutting the cost just to keep the lights on!

its hard times out there and only the wealthy and the tough will survive, unless you are just lucky....


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Some AWESOME replies. 

5 years ago between my own work and a company that I subbed for, I had a huge operation. 
Loaders, backhoes, skids, trucks out the wazoo 40 shovelers.

That year my foreman coined the phrase "Suicide or Spring, whichever comes first"

Ive downsized to just 2 condo complexes, 2 trucks, 8 shovelers. And Im back out in the field.
Son of a gun if I dont feel the same now as when I had 8 condos and 6 8-10 acre commercial sites.

I think the fact that this has been a very heavy winter with an event every 4 days, its really gotten to me.
Constant heavy snow.
Way over budget on labor and material
A fixed contract income
And no savings or credit to draw from.

This year was just the final straw.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

One of the best threads on PS, hands down.


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## cpmi (Dec 18, 2010)

Turf Commando;1240681 said:


> It's a fools paradise outhere, many willing to work for little... My pricing is higher then most, I'd rather have 10 jobs paying well, then 30 paying less...
> 
> The secret to survival is maintaing a good relationship with clients and good rep around ...


These were my exact thoughts while reading this thread-couldn't have said it better myself.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Turf Commando;1240681 said:


> It's a fools paradise outhere, many willing to work for little... My pricing is higher then most, I'd rather have 10 jobs paying well, then 30 paying less...
> 
> The secret to survival is maintaing a good relationship with clients and good rep around ...


Here,hereIn a perfect world clients would choose on quality of service,NOT who is the cheapest priced.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

A good relationship works I agree. Its why Ive had the same properties for years.

Unfortunately property managers and boards dont stay the same forever. And many times the newbies want to come in and "show they did something"

All that loyalty and friendship that you took years to build up with one manager, now the new manager has one agenda....To show his new property how he saved them money.


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## Turf Commando (Dec 16, 2007)

I've found apartment complexes/condos is dead end road every season they're looking for new cheaper service....


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## Sal_Moides (Dec 19, 2010)

procut1,
Thank you with sincerity. Of all the bs around a lot of the post, WOE IS ME stuff, i feel that your honesty about this condition is invaluable. Why, because most everyone here loves to jump in the truck and THEN make money. The realization here is that, as rosy as we want to paint our picture, we ALL have our breaking point. Thank you for reminding me and others to keep our heads out of the clouds.


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## trqjnky (Nov 12, 2009)

i bribe people.. applebees gift cards to the apt. maintenance guys that shovel the walks, take the property manager out to lunch a couple times. gotta give them every reason possible to keep you there. 

you would be surprised that the fact "he buys me lunch" will keep a contract for you.


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## ColumbiaLand (Sep 1, 2008)

Def a good thread


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## Cmbrsum (Oct 2, 2008)

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=13386912&cat=517&lpid=&search= 
This guy is a perfect example. He started last year with 2 ford trucks a 91" and 97" and two 10 year old Boss plows that have been rewelded many times. He's plowed for one year now. and his second guy is usually someone with no experience who works under the table of peanuts. His ad state latest equipment?

His ad reads " SNOW REMOVAL DAVIS/WEBER
Ogden, UT 84403 
BIG STORM ! ! !
I have 2 openings in davis and 2 in weber counties left ! !
I beat any written bid by 5%
Prompt reliable service with the latest equipment
Salt spreading service also
Seller Contact Info
Contact Name: Scott Home Phone: 801-XXX-XXXX "

Any suggestions on what to do with a guy like this?


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

PowersTree;1240632 said:


> I get called a low baller all the time.
> 
> Im new to running my own business, but not doing the work. Doing the work is the easy part. Figuring costs, how to bid, and all the paperwork end of it is the headache to me.
> 
> ...


So, great question. \"we\" teach you what the going rate is. Let\'s say $25 an hour per truck.

But guess what, your costs are $35 an hour per truck.

What good does it do for anyone to \"teach\" you what the going rate is? Isn\'t what is more important what YOU need to make per hour to meet your labor, overhead and profit margins?

And I\'m guessing you are using the term \"teach\" as interchangeable with \"tell\".

The \"going rate\" in my area is between $55-150 per hour per truck. Completely serious. What good does that do?

What you need to do as a business owner is determine your costs and then price accordingly. It doesn\'t matter one whit what anybody else\'s rate is. Actually it does somewhat, but that\'s a later discussion after you grasp this concept.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

dfd9;1241444 said:


> So, great question. \"we\" teach you what the going rate is. Let\'s say $25 an hour per truck.
> 
> But guess what, your costs are $35 an hour per truck.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point in many threads. Be prepared to get flamed though. If you dont just give a price or say $1.00 a minute to mow. You wont be popular


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

procut1;1241529 said:


> Exactly my point in many threads. Be prepared to get flamed though. If you dont just give a price or say $1.00 a minute to mow. You wont be popular


I\'ll get over it. lol


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## SnowMT (Jan 12, 2011)

procut1;1240096 said:


> I wrote another post about how Im finally leaving the snow business and Im happy about it.
> 
> Just some observations.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

procut1;124090
[B said:


> Way over budget on labor and material
> *A fixed contract income*
> And no savings or credit to draw from.[/B]


Hey Procut,
I have read your posts over the years on here and lawnsite, you do make a lot of good
points, which I am sure help more people than you realize,

But...
You made the cardinal mistake of snowplowing in the northeast, *A fixed contract income*
If I understand correctly you have too many or ALL seasonal contracts.
Never ever ever , should you go over 50% seasonals. I would recommend 30%.

Because of our location we can at anytime get three feet of snow dumped on us,
over and over again.
The last two years I have lost money on my seasonals or broke even but my bottom line,
with all the snow , is better than ever.
I had no less than 50 new seasonal commercial contracts thrown at me this year, I took one new one. The others all multiple year contracts signed at the end of winter last year.
which brings me to just under 30% seasonal contract
Also I do work for 3 national companies, not much, but it is where the snow business is heading so you have to join em and get in with the ones that you will make money with
now or be left out eventually. 
side note- USM- crazy crazy contract, my lawyer said anyone that signs it has not had a lawyer look at it, which is sad.

I wish you well in you adventures out west, well , west of here...lol.
You are one of the few people that actually understand true economics of the lawn and snow business and your novels(long posts) will be missed
Good luck


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Thanks TJ

That made my day!

Youre right about the seasonals. I used to have a little more of a mix but usually heavily seasonal.

In the hudson valley here almost everything is seasonal. Ive always done condo complexes, truck depots and shopping centers and they have all been seasonal.

What really put a squeeze on me was the "credit crunch" For years I had a large line of credit with my previous bank. I had a 780 credit score and perfect payment history. Then completely out of the blue they "reevaluated" and pulled my line of credit with no warning. It was going into the winter, I had had just sent the check out for 100 tons of salt sitting at my shop, just sent the equipment rental payments out. M&T bank pulled the line, and cleaned out my bank account. 

That sent me into a tail spin that I never recovered from.

Overnight I went from a perfect credit score, perfect payment history, low interest rates, and a signature that was good as gold with my vendors, to almost out of business.

Seasonal contracts had worked for me in the past. I had the money and credit to rent or own the right equipment. Always had a large supply of materials. Making payroll was never a problem. And at the end of the season when I got my last payments in April and May, my credit line was paid off 100% and I was sitting pretty going into spring.

Since then, having to survive on cash, with no credit, I just never have enough money to carry until spring. 

Its a miserable existance not having any flexibility anymore. Being 100% dependable on customers paying on time so you can get through the next storm.

Not having the money or credit in advance, I cant buy material in bulk, so I have to pay full retail, doubling my cost. 

Everything literally "snowballed"

Im not sure where I would be if the bank had not done that. But I know I would be in a much better position. 

I made a lot of mistakes along the way. But the major thing that made my life a nightmare was totally 100% no fault of my own. And in the end, having never screwed anyone out of a penny in my life, them pulling the line of credit cost them $25,000 that theyre not going to get paid.


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

I hate banks more then a dentist. I'm going to keep stuffing my mattress.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Me too. I used to laugh at people who kept money in hiding because they "didnt trust banks"

Well I now hold the same opinion. I keep enough there to cover checks and thats it. i dont trust them one bit

I always thought if you pay your bills on time, keep your credit score up, nothing bad could happen.

Well to M&T bank, that doesnt matter


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## SPEEDSKI (Feb 25, 2010)

To answer some these topics.......

As far as the Banks, I agree if hurts. The BIG question is WHY? Why are banks not lending.......even to good creditors? It scares me to know what they know.

I think that is one huge way that our idiotic government went wrong. Instead of pissing all of our money away, I wish I would have been able to get a government loan with a low intrest rate. We got hit for over $100,000 in 2008 by builders that BK'd on us. This took all my rainy day cash and then some. I scrambled to get money, sold everything I could, credit cards, you name it. It would have been nice to get a $150,000 low intrest loan, I don't want the money for free, just a loan. I mean they can easily get it back from me with the IRS up our ass's. I mean they gave away hundreds of billions of dollars. This was a huge mistake. I have watched evey business owner I know struggle and go back to work and they wonder WHY we are not hiring. I love it when they say "businesses need to do they duty and hire" WTF!!! I could have really used some cash back then to keep some guys on and keep the business going easier. We had to make major cuts.

On the low baller front.

When I started irrigation in 1998 I actually had friends and relatives call the big guys for estimates, that way I knew what they were charging. I had low overhead, so my costs were low. I knew someday I wanted to be a larger company, so I priced what they priced. I did not want to leave money on the table. What I did do, was give the customer the personal touch that some of the larger companies could not and that is how I got work.

When we started Christmans lighting, we did the samething yet we used our existing customer base from our irrigation business.

When we got into snow, I asked those I knew what they are charging, so that is what we charge and we have 3 complete trucks now and we only started a year ago.

I try to work with all the other competitors, we try and stick together instead of tear each other apart. There is work for everyone, now we have the super low ballers that we just can't help to see the light, but we let them shoot themselves and pick up their work after they get fired.

So I understand the fear a new guys, most of them sell the cheap price to get work! Why, hell I have no idea, but it will always be that way. I just never wanted to be "THAT GUY" I want to be respected in the industry and I think most of us do, they others will just never get it and it will never go away.

The entire Green industry is heading down the tubes, pricing is just silly and all we can do is down size to the point where we can still make money and be successful. After leaning down for 2 years, cutting everything we can, we are finally back on track and we had a great year last year, but it has been tough. Our price is our price, and we refuse to lower or negotiate down. We have built spreadsheets so we know every penny of our overhead, once you know that, you truely realize that you can't lower your price and stand firm.

Sorry for the rant.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Speedski. We're about to be neighbors


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## SPEEDSKI (Feb 25, 2010)

LOL, I really feel for you.

We only did Lighting & Irrigation until the Snow Removal. It seems the large Maintenance Grass cutters have weathered the economy ok. They have that contract money coming in every month and most have started doing what we do for much less. So business got really rough, the only option was to down size. Many have closed up and we have begun to get their work, but its a slow go. I am just getting tired of the struggle and I see no pick up in the economy anytime soon. Its gonna hurt for years to come. I am really worried about our country's future more than ever. I feel blessed to have what we do have though and I am trying hard to see the good things we have going on. I am thankful, don't get me wrong, this thread just got me thinking too much and I started typing.

Its all I know, so I will fight until I am knocked out or until I get the golden gloves. LOL

Good luck to everyone.

I do hope everyone really tries to start working together tho.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Actually im serious. Im moving to nashville...lol


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## SPEEDSKI (Feb 25, 2010)

cool, its a great place to live. I am from chicago and I really like it here. Taxes are much lower. I have friends in Buffalo, Indy, and ChiTown always coming down to visit and wanting to move here.

Hit me up when you hit the rock.


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## RichG53 (Sep 16, 2008)

I think so many are forgetting that they too (when starting out) did things for less..

The more (bigger) you get the more overhead you have meaning you have to do jobs for more Money..

Everyone was a Lowballer at one time...

Just some thing to thing about..


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

SPEEDSKI;1242206 said:


> cool, its a great place to live. I am from chicago and I really like it here. Taxes are much lower. I have friends in Buffalo, Indy, and ChiTown always coming down to visit and wanting to move here.
> 
> Hit me up when you hit the rock.


Ive been going back and forth and love it. Already have work lined up and there is more blacktop in a square mile there than in 4 counties here. The reception has been great.

Im excited about it. My mortgage is going to be less than just my taxes up here. And the house 3 times the size and doesnt need work like my dump.

And the little bit it snows there....Ill be watching it out the window.

Or, most likely, driving for someone else...haha

Ill hit you up when I make the move in a couple weeks.


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## 09Busa (Nov 27, 2010)

procut1;1242464 said:


> Ive been going back and forth and love it. Already have work lined up and there is more blacktop in a square mile there than in 4 counties here. The reception has been great.
> 
> Im excited about it. My mortgage is going to be less than just my taxes up here. And the house 3 times the size and doesnt need work like my dump.
> 
> ...


It sounds as though you are already on the upswing. I'm happy for you. I just want to share this with you. For twenty years. I sold cars in the Capital Region (yes, I'm not far from you-Catskills) I easily cleared over 200K for many years. I remember writing deals on hoods of cars, while the next customer waited. THEN.....the internet came around. Best and worst friend we ever had. Someone would drive 100 miles to save $60.00 on a new car.
For most of those years, I was single, had no bills other than living expenses and only worried about what toy I was going to buy that year. Dinner at restaurants every night, met and dated crazy chicks, as you come across so many in that business. I never imagined doing anything else. Money was good and cars would always sell.
When the economy first began to go south, I thought it was a glitch like everyone else. Then dealership owners and sales managers began with their gimmicks and we lost all credibility. I went from 200K per year to 36K my last year. No more dinners out, no new toys (except for the 09Busa)Thumbs Up. The phone didn't ring anymore and I didn't know what direction I was going to go in.
I moved out here, became a one man lawn care/snowplowing business. 50% contracts, 50% per push. I am happy and content. I am more expensive then those around me and that is fine. I only want customers that pay for good service and to h**l with the ones that want to pay peanuts.
Next season, there will be NO contracts, as people tend to treat you like a servant when you are under contract. 
I couldn't imagine being "big". Not in this economy. You sound as though you are ready for your "new life" and I just want you to know it is ready for you. Good Luck


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

I get a kick out of the guys looking for help bidding. Read a few threads on this site and figure it out. All you can ask for is what to consider in the bid. I thought I had it all figured out until I came on plow site. I never made provisions for heavy equipment. I did this year...and guess what? Almost needed it, I didn't, but I got close. You get no respect in life getting things handed to you. My dad never gave me money...he showed me how to make money. That's what you get here. Guys with many many years willing to give answers to the right questions. I don't claim to know it all, I'm far from it. I've picked up things from this site and alot from experience. You don't need 25 years experience to figure out what works and what doesn't. Last year, I barely made insurance payments. I was all per push and no seasonal. This year, I got some seasonals. I didn't make tons off them since it's been so snowy but the bills are getting paid. I learned alot of things from my mistakes. I try to share those mistakes with people to help them. Sometimes the only way you'll learn how to fight is getting punched in the face. 

As far as the industry goes, I was approached with a job to plow some gas stations. They gave me a list of what they will pay for certain amounts. I wouldn't bid it. I'm the contractor...I'll tell YOU what it's gonna cost. I bid a place that told me last year the guy did it for 3,000. I told them I couldn't touch that. I bid it for 4,000...and won. I don't believe in asking what the other bids are, or what it was last year. That has no bearing on me. My costs are my costs, What I need to make could be way off from what the guy last year needed to make. 

If you joined Plowsite to get handed a job, you'll be dissapointed. If you joined to learn how to get jobs, you'll find this to be a great tool.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

JTVLandscaping;1243392 said:


> If you joined Plowsite to get handed a job, you'll be dissapointed. If you joined to learn how to get jobs, you'll find this to be a great tool.


Kinda makes you wonder what some of these guys would do without Lawnsite or Plowsite. When many of us started in this business there wasn't forums to go and ask "How much should I charge?".


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

JTVLandscaping;1243392 said:


> I get a kick out of the guys looking for help bidding. Read a few threads on this site and figure it out. All you can ask for is what to consider in the bid. I thought I had it all figured out until I came on plow site. I never made provisions for heavy equipment. I did this year...and guess what? Almost needed it, I didn\'t, but I got close. You get no respect in life getting things handed to you. My dad never gave me money...he showed me how to make money. That\'s what you get here. Guys with many many years willing to give answers to the right questions. I don\'t claim to know it all, I\'m far from it. I\'ve picked up things from this site and alot from experience. You don\'t need 25 years experience to figure out what works and what doesn\'t. Last year, I barely made insurance payments. I was all per push and no seasonal. This year, I got some seasonals. I didn\'t make tons off them since it\'s been so snowy but the bills are getting paid. I learned alot of things from my mistakes. I try to share those mistakes with people to help them. Sometimes the only way you\'ll learn how to fight is getting punched in the face.
> 
> As far as the industry goes, I was approached with a job to plow some gas stations. They gave me a list of what they will pay for certain amounts. I wouldn\'t bid it. I\'m the contractor...I\'ll tell YOU what it\'s gonna cost. I bid a place that told me last year the guy did it for 3,000. I told them I couldn\'t touch that. I bid it for 4,000...and won. I don\'t believe in asking what the other bids are, or what it was last year. That has no bearing on me. My costs are my costs, What I need to make could be way off from what the guy last year needed to make.
> 
> If you joined Plowsite to get handed a job, you\'ll be dissapointed. If you joined to learn how to get jobs, you\'ll find this to be a great tool.


Nice to see someone \"gets\" it.

Far better than those who get all snarky and complain about not getting any help or not getting a direct answer to their questions.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

The pricing threads always give me a laugh.

I give a snarky response but its the truth.

I say 
Send me your last years tax return, a p&l statement, a balance sheet, your current bank statement, available credit, equipment list, and overhead. THEN I CAN HELP YOU WITH A PRICE.

There is no way to price a job without that information. Guys just want you to tell them a price and they will submit it not having any idea what makes up that price or if they make money or not.

The snow work that I still have, if a guy had 1 or 2 trucks, a couple helpers and worked out of his house with a full time job......He would be rolling in it.

These same jobs that Im complaining are bankrupting me, some guys could do at 30% less and be banking good money.

I have a couple full time salary guys
Shop rent
Very high insurance
Extra trucks
Payroll taxes
Commercial phone, internet
Commercial electric

The list goes on. My first 2000 a month only covers shop rent and utilities.

So what good would it do me if someone told me his price?


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

procut1;1243640 said:


> The pricing threads always give me a laugh.
> 
> I give a snarky response but its the truth.
> 
> ...


But, but, but why can\'t you just tell me a price? (said in my best whiny tone)

That\'s all I need. Really, I know I have a snowbear on a Tundra, but WallyWorld wants ME!


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## Mike N (Dec 21, 2008)

trqjnky;1241299 said:


> i bribe people.. applebees gift cards to the apt. maintenance guys that shovel the walks, take the property manager out to lunch a couple times. gotta give them every reason possible to keep you there.
> 
> you would be surprised that the fact "he buys me lunch" will keep a contract for you.


Little things like that go a long way. Thumbs Up


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## Maleko (Sep 20, 2004)

I Think its WHO you know that matters..

Example, I have a good friend that Has a friend that works for a large management co.

he gives her a $100.00 to tell him all the bids that was submitted. So he comes in a few hundred buck lower than the lowest bid. He gets about 75% of them.
So she scores a bunch of extra cash , A $100bucks for eachone he gets, and he makes out big time.

Yes this suks for the honest people, but i believe this is how alot of things work.

just my 2 cents


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## Maleko (Sep 20, 2004)

I Think its WHO you know that matters..

Example, I have a good friend that Has a friend that works for a large management co.

he gives her a $100.00 to tell him all the bids that was submitted. So he comes in a few hundred buck lower than the lowest bid. He gets about 75% of them.
So she scores a bunch of extra cash , A $100bucks for each one he gets, and he makes out big time.

Yes this suks for the honest people, but i believe this is how alot of things work.

just my 2 cents


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## Advantage (Nov 7, 2007)

^^ That's not cool. I'm sure it happens, especially with government or municipal kickbacks. But I would be pissed if I was on the losing end of those bids! 

By the way, VERY GOOD thread going here. Good luck with the change Procut.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

Maleko;1244140 said:


> I Think its WHO you know that matters..
> 
> Example, I have a good friend that Has a friend that works for a large management co.
> 
> ...


I guess if it works for him...The problem I see there is not only is it dishonest but he's cheating himself. That tells me he doesn't bother to calculate his costs and when that deal dries up, he won't know how to construct a bid. I had somebody do that to me with a lawn seeding job last year. I gave the price, somebody found out my price and bid it $75 cheaper. He got it, I didn't. I'm glad I work so hard for somebody else's beer money.


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## Maleko (Sep 20, 2004)

Hey I agree, its Bull [email protected]*T... But that seems to be the way it works around here.

Either someone pays to get the bids, 
Or an Illegal will come in with that FINAL LOW Number, that they want to see. They dont care if you have a $50,000 set up or 10 guys with shovels and a wheelbarrow they just want it done...

Example , When the Hurry Up and Shovel your roof off scare came to our area from the large amounts of snow load, we actually had alot of buildings and homes collapse around here. 
My roofer, who is licensed and insured was getting anywhere from $1200. to $2500.00 to clear roofs off, That lasted about 2 weeks , Then every Schmuk in town bought a shovel and a ladder and started doing them for 3 - 5 Hundred bucks. i wouldnt step foot on a roof for less than a $1000.00. I am a carpenter full time, And yes i was getting calls all day long , just couldnt keep up.

Just like plowing. It seam everyone in the world now plows drives etc. Everyone wants a piece of the pie, Hey they are aloud to right? I guess,


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## Maleko (Sep 20, 2004)

Another example i forgot to mention.

At a house im woking at remodeling some rooms, There is a flyer on the fridge from a couple landscape companys.

One of them says sign up for the season, mowing, fall clean up, snow plow etc. and recieve 8 weeks , Yes 8 weeks of FREE lawn mowing service..

Ok. How does someone compete with that. That is 1/3 of the mowing season here.

Not sure if is Joe Illegal or Honest Bob. But it does say contact JOSE at ....................

Well you know what im saying. It is just getting unfreakin real around here. Even in my Trade ( Carpentry) Its turning into a joke. Hasnt effected me Yet, i have been busy with all work coming from referrals I may just be lucky. 

But back to the OP , yes Its all changing For the worse i believe. The low bids and the crappy work is showing up everywhere. 
It just seems like no one cares anymore about quality . 

I could ramble all day about this. But its gets me no where...


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

There are a couple management companies around here that I suspect do that. Most condo complexes if my (sealcoat)proposal gets in front of the board, it sells. When it comes to associating condos, my company is the most experienced and I believe most qualified. The price is usually in line and it usually just makes sense to go with my company.

Yet some management companies somehow I never get the work.

Come to find out the big flashy picture filled proposal never gets to the board meeting. At most just my price as a line on a spreadsheet. And the board makes their decision solely by looking at 3 numbers.

Some managers clearly push the board toward others.

Finally with those management companies I started bypassing them and go straight to the board members. Like magic they "never heard of me" even though I've bid the property 3 times. And like magic again, I got the jobs.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Maleko;1244140 said:


> I Think its WHO you know that matters..
> 
> Example, I have a good friend that Has a friend that works for a large management co.
> 
> ...


I\'d rather be able to sleep at night and look myself in the mirror than work this way.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

I have not been following all the posts in this thread, but I was just going to say that I agree 100% with the first post. I am fairly new to this industry and while Iwas just getting in I thought it was going to be a long process building up the business to be able to even be considered in larger contracts. Man was I wrong. I have been looking around and it seems like just anyone will accept a contract as long as you are cheap enough. I know this because me and a friend of mine started a business right about the same time and every business we have approached has not asked us a single question about quality or anything, just that the cheapest price gets the bid.

I personally have not taken them because I know that I would be in over my head and I want to stick to the old fashioned way of moving up because I personally feel that I will have a stronger business base if I do it the right way and not skip any steps along the way. 

It may just be my opinion but it seems the ones that rocket upwards and blindly take as much as they can as fast as they can, end up falling just as fast. Ill stick to making a solid business first


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## oman1999 (Sep 14, 2006)

I'm of the same mind. I use mostly cash and take advantage of my shop skills and equipment on hand to maintain and sometimes build what would be considered an "older" piece of equipment.

I don't bid anything thats over my head and I stick to my profit margins and quality of service. I stick with mostly residential and some small commercial places and a few churches.

I know what it takes to run my truck per hour. I have a business plan for 3, 5 and 10 years. Spreadsheets to include increases in fuel, insurance, labor, taxes, etc. I can look at the trends going in to a season and make a solid bid for the work. 

I win some, I lose some. Referrals are important. Being there to service the account is important. I could probably handle 25-40% more sqare-footage in accounts but the blizzard we experienced here showed me just how a severe weather event can shake up a less prepared operation.

If the customer is happy with crappy work at a low price from a fly-by night shady company then that's what they get. I'll sit and read plowsite instead of plowing to break even or plowing for cost.


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## cpmi (Dec 18, 2010)

Unfortunately this is the way of the world today. Most people care about quality-few are willing to or can afford to pay for it. The ones that can afford to pay I will work for. I am fortunate enough to be able to do that-pick and choose the jobs I want for our company. This is especially true in the commercial world-they want the work done for next to nothing and care less what it looks like. Doctors,lawyers,dentist offices and retail all the same-someone slips and falls they could care less because YOU are responsible. A crappy plow job or poorly maintained buildings and landscaping are not going to stop people from going to a particular doctor,lawyer,store etc. and they know it. My wife works for a doctor who owns the building they are in-every spring and fall they call and inquire about prices for plowing/landscape maintenance-I don't bother quoting it anymore because I know they will not pay for what is in my eyes even a tolerable level of service,never mind good quality. But there are 10 guys killing each other for the work. Let them have it and work for next to nothing-the business owners are happy because of the low price and don't care about the quality. It's been this way the last 3 years or so in my area and progressively getting worse. There are still home and business owners who are willing to pay for great service-just getting tougher to find them.


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## jenton (Nov 2, 2008)

Procut, i cant agree with you more. I left the plow business last season for the most part. I assist on one property who is willing to pay my rate and thats it. I also felt the same way about the lawn mowing business and sold off my lawn care last year. I think everybody starts out cutting grass and doing snow today. I feel the landscape and snow contractors learn over the years were the profits are and i for one try stay in the construction end of landscape. I may not work every single day but i still get my bills paid and my overhead is much less. And im much happier now.


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## SnowMT (Jan 12, 2011)

tuney443;1241130 said:


> Here,hereIn a perfect world clients would choose on quality of service,NOT who is the cheapest priced.


Totally agree! Know your worth. Know your market.Thumbs Up


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## milkie62 (Sep 1, 2003)

I had started 23 yrs ago working for a guy.He paid me 20% of what I did using his truck and 80% of what i did when i had finally gotten my own truck.Went on my own back in 1990 just doing residentials since I had a regular job and could not always be available at all hrs of the day.At the time an average drive in my area went from $15-25 per push.I would say now other than a couple of old ladies I have done forever for $20 my average is $25-30.I have a HOA with basically 2 car length drives.I was plowing them at $15 per push since they were all on top of each other and alot of times I would be backdragging one and then backing into another and pushing it out.Worked out well since nobody could undercut me with the way I was plowing these.Then they wanted me to snowblow instead of plow.I said OK but drives would go up to $30 per blow.All agreed and I got even more work plus double the money.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

$30 per blow??

No wonder they agreed--you must've had a line around the block.

:laughing:


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Seriously though--if you have an entire neighborhood, then $15 per drive actually isn't too bad ($30 is pretty stellar, especially if you have a rider and can just drive it around), it all depends on your perspective. It's sort of like pricing an apartment building with a 1 acre park lot, but pricing it _per parking space_. Sure, you're gonna look _reeeeeeal_ cheap, but in reality you may not be.


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## milkie62 (Sep 1, 2003)

:laughing::laughing:How do you what my $30 per blow entailed ???? LOL:laughing::laughing:


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## milkie62 (Sep 1, 2003)

Well what I was actually trying to do when i raised my prices for snowblowing over plowing was to reduce the number of customers not really almost double my customer base.It is working out pretty well right now but when the paperboy throws the paper in the driveway before the storm and 5-6 " of snow covers it the blower jams and then that one is down for the duration of the storm.To keep me from from getting all worked up ,I need another 2 big machines as spares.If I could get another 25 drives I would look into a 30-40 hp 4wd tractor with cab and 60" snowblower and a 60" backblade. I figure I could get a used setup in the middle $20k range.


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## KEC Maintaince (Jan 1, 2011)

it would be cheaper to hire a helper and get a single stg blower when the snow is light enuff . 
getting all that equipment means you will have to haul it around with you and spend a lot of time loading and unloading equipment. 
you can back drag the fronts of the drives and have a helper snow blow what the customers want done and you can be working on other drives with the plow.if the system you have is working just add small stuff like a helper and another blower back blades and more heavier equipment are fine but first try to work with what you have and keep it simple.


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## knowsymon (Dec 28, 2009)

Excellent post!


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## Omran (Oct 10, 2009)

here is what I believe,all what you guys said is true everything is changed, but that is what gives the smart guys the opportunity to make more money, in my neck of the wood, there are many contractors who do plow,excavation work, landscape and everything else, I know for a fact that my prices are the highest in town, I charge $100 an hour for dirt work $125 an hour for plowing, but I don't take a lot of plowing jobs, because I tell my clients from start, that they are receiving quality work not PS, and with all odds I still get the jobs year after year. I think it is always wise to say that if you truely do an excellent work your client will come back to you. there are guys run their bobcats for $65 or $70 an hour and I still get more work than what they get, but I always stay real honest with my clients.


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## EPM (Oct 27, 2010)

Cmbrsum;1241335 said:


> http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=13386912&cat=517&lpid=&search=
> This guy is a perfect example. He started last year with 2 ford trucks a 91" and 97" and two 10 year old Boss plows that have been rewelded many times. He's plowed for one year now. and his second guy is usually someone with no experience who works under the table of peanuts. His ad state latest equipment?
> 
> His ad reads " SNOW REMOVAL DAVIS/WEBER
> ...


Contact him and tell him your a property manager with some accounts around town and are seeking a bid. Go to your office, write up something so low its not even funny then get in your wife's car and meet him. See if he honors his 5% deal. lol. Follow him around during the storm and clean up his mess. Chill out everyone, im only kidding! Thumbs Up


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Or _are_ you??


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## EPM (Oct 27, 2010)

Westhardt Corp.;1251592 said:


> Or _are_ you??


No, definitely am kidding. Would be funny to see if he would actually honor the 5% deal then smack him if he does.


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## jklawn&Plow (Jan 8, 2011)

I bought a single stage last year, Toro 424 or something $600 (cost me more than the dual stage).
What a time saver. Can pick it up, just lower tailgait,, no ramps, 400 ft of sidewalk done in 10-15min. Won't work with too much stuff thrown from street but it is a great investment. I bring dual out for big wet stuff and I carry 4 shovels. I need to get a shovel with wings so I can carry just one (too much weight).


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