# How many of you have used an Ag tractor/ pusher/blower on your lots and like it.



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Looking at a purchase. I'm at a limit as to what I can do right now. A 100HP tractor can do a lot of work. PowerReverser no clutch trans. Not Hydro. 

Tractors retain value and in theory it should pay for itself. I have a small tractor for loading salt. It's a toy compared to what I need. Less Labor expense, more machine expense. More capable than a new truck me thinks. Need to finance so new at 0 percent is probably my only option.

Still $85k or so is a lot of dough to finance. Has to pay for itself in 5 to 7 yrs. What do you say. Looking at 5 series JD with a front 3ph/ pusher or blade like a Horst wing blade and a blower on the back; Normand or Pronovost. Could see side work in firewood business. But that is not really a failsafe. 

Yes or no way.


----------



## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

What are you doing with it in the summer? That's the big issue for us. We have no summer work for AG tractors. So instead theres a fleet of Horst and Metal Pless blades in my yard that go on AG tractors we lease for the winter. Our operators, Our insurance but we just lease for the winter.


----------



## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

I would look just at a little bigger deere, a 6130d or 6140d.. a few thousand lbs heavier for better traction.


----------



## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

What about the Deere e series. 5083 or 5101e
Horst 9-13 blade. Buy a used blower. Not much goes wrong with a blower.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Summer I used to do Light construction related, and woodshop work. No work out here that I'd get out of bed for in that industry right now. Folks are so used to Walmart and Ikea they have no clue what good is.. At least that's my take.

I have a 40 ac wood lot an hr north from home and thought about some firewood related. Neighbors all have 40 acre lots as well. Have a sawmill but tough to make money with it. If I had nice flat farm land I'd grow barley for all the micro breweries popping up everywhere lately around here. Alcohol is good when things are bad...They all want homegrown stuff to make beer with.

Ya looked at the 6 series. Too big for me to truck around though. I agree they make a better platform for not much more $.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Midtown, thats what I'm looking at 5101E or 5105M $10K dif but the M has much more capacity for 3ph. I am always at or beyond my 1070 JD cap back there so that is one reason I would like the M. Also if something goes wrong the cylinders are exterior I think. Also the LaForge front 3ph has a better capacity for the M. The M is also heavier being built here (prob mexico) not India. I think the PowerReverser Plus would be a decent thought as well and only avail. on the M.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Oh and the Horst looks great. A lot of moving parts though. Not sure how Hydro will keep up with wing needs etc. Used to my 9'6 XV which moves slick


----------



## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

I bought a 5083e. Cheap and should do the job. 
Horst direct mount 9 13


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Have you used it yet? If so how well did it handle 13'. Tire quest bias or Radials. And how is the power reverser. I'm used to plowing like a batouttahell. Have to take too many accts to make it these days. I am thinking your setup should double what I can do time wise with my 3/4 truck 9'6" V. Is that possible. Most of my lots are are small 1/2 acre or less. One is 1.25 acre. Not a lot of room to put snow generally so a blower will be a good edition. Lastly, are you using loader arms or front 3PH for pushing. 
thanks. Only quote so far is for what you have. E series 5101.


----------



## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

The reality of a AG tractor is you can do (should do) the math over 10 years but will be paying off the loan in 5.... So if with no real use for the tractor in summer, prepare to pay in the range of $15 K per year to cover the cost cost over 5 years. That includes tractor, blower, plows. etc, etc, and maintenance.
Would you like to see the fading of my M100 Kubota this summer? And I even use a 15 ft. batwing mower to give it some exercise.... Make sure you do the proper math, that's why "switching to a snow blowing service" has almowt 50k hits. Great advice to help you out. Use it, these (me to) aren't lying....


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Thanks for the advice blowerman. I did do a lot of reading and utubing to see what was in use in other places. I'm going to reread your mentioned thread. I heard a large local Landscaping Co. around here just ordered what I am interested in. Breaking into the large scale resi business with a big tractor blower. Not a bad idea if you have a full staffed office to pay in the winter who are just sitting around waiting on spring. 

I was a little distraught when I received news from my Deere sales guy this week that the Pronovost bi-directional did not really work in both directions. The utube videos with the TV140 and bi-dir. Pronov. looked convincing enough for me to start getting some quotes. Guess I was not paying attention. Works backing up and scrapes when pulling. I need a forward facing unit for potential fast field work. My current comercial business could use a rear facing unit to clear large banks, entrances and piles. I am at a loss to choose one over the other now. Stymied ..

I prob could have some work clearing fieldturf fields if I can figure out the weight and tire issue. This could be a niche that pays those summer payments after the asphalt is clear. One reason for my desire to stick with a mid frame size tractor instead of the deere 6 series or similar.

Market is a little different here. Too far to a big city for my little business. Atlantic ocean 100 yards east digs a big hole in how much area I can cover if you know what I mean. Basically there are only so many accounts. That said. I could still have twice as many probably if I had equipment. Resi's are not my favorite because of billing / receiving and contracting time. But it is wide open. Blower service would be ideal for a few cul-de-sac neighborhoods in town. Folks here are very independent here and frugal. Most have snowblowers and all complain about a $35-45. charge for 6". Condo Assoc.'s pay. on time. I like that. Have 90 units worth now. 

Not sure how you stretch out payments to even 7 yrs. $15k a year isn't bad though. After it's paid I have something too. Looking into field renovation and a few other summer things.


----------



## bob00 (Sep 8, 2009)

here ther is a guy with 20 tractor he rent them out to farmer in the summer it help cover he s payment framer have the same probleme as you they have no work in the winter

he also rent them to a campangy how cut the grass on the side of the highway and in park


----------



## nsmilligan (Dec 21, 1999)

I just added my 4th tractor a Puma 130 CVT, electric heated front and rear windows, heated power adjustable mirrors,heated seat, but I missed the snow tires, Case is now offering Nokian snow tires on their tractors. Horst snowwing 4200 blade.
The tractors are cheaper to lease then a truck, better on fuel, and push wayyyy more.
wesport.
Bill


----------



## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

MIDTOWNPC;1496889 said:


> What about the Deere e series. 5083 or 5101e
> Horst 9-13 blade. Buy a used blower. Not much goes wrong with a blower.


Better be thinking about adding something to keep them from cracking in half with that much weight off the front end.

Put a truck set up the same way next to a tractor, and the tractor will outplow the truck by 50% minimum.


----------



## bcbrouwer (Oct 25, 2010)

yeah, I agree with nsmilligan. tractor is way more efficent than a truck. in a yard that takes my f250 with a 8'2" boss v blade 2 hours to plow, my John deere 105hp with a horst 10-16' blade will plow the same amount of snow on the same lot in 30-40 minutes. I also have a back blade/pull plow for loading docks and carrying extra snow behind me. this year I bought a 7710 JD 135hp with a 12/18 snow wing. it will be even quicker, cant wait for the snow to come! I have found for me doing commercial lots where I have to move a lot of snow around to the designated snow pile areas, a blower is much slower than the tractor with the back blade. for driveways it would be the other way around.


----------



## dmax08 (Aug 16, 2007)

I switched 4 years ago to tractors. I bought a kubota M7040 , put a 10' blade on it and have been very pleased since. The unit works very well and very fuel efficient.

Still have trucks and skid steers, but like the tractors way better.

The last one i purchased was a repo, saved 20k.. just had to go get it in kentucky


----------



## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

dfd9;1497130 said:


> Better be thinking about adding something to keep them from cracking in half with that much weight off the front end.
> 
> Put a truck set up the same way next to a tractor, and the tractor will outplow the truck by 50% minimum.


I'll let you know but since the dealer sold it and those are the mounts Horst sells I think it will be fine. I have the 5083e and the Horst direct lift 913 snow wing.

I don't know how you can put a truck setup te same way beside it unless you mount a Horst to a truck. The benefit of the truck is it could salt but one thing that made me go to a tractor is the maintenance factor the visibility and the insurance. I really considered another bobcat but road speed was the other thing. I did buy a two speed a300 bobcat also which I really want to try a Horst 913 on also


----------



## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

What about a forward PTO?

I just ask because I used to work for a guy who had a JD 7630 with a forward PTO. Had a Reist 6000 series and a 3 point Horst 5000 series to go on it. Also had a fendt (can't remember the model # as I ran the deere.) setup the same. Gorgeous setup I loved it, Was powerful enough that it ate a couch one night and just kept on going.

I only mention it because it could open up some account oppourtunities. He had a contract with the local municipality to do their blow backs/ truck loading with them on the roads and hwys. Also was able to offer blow back/loading service to smaller contractors ( a huge hit around here).


----------



## Plow horse (Oct 18, 2009)

*Ag tractors*

Yes they plow better than anyting else. With the right set up. I have a JD 6200 4wd, quick tach loader, bucket and plow hook up direct to jd or on loader, pushing 10' w wings lots of weight on rear 3pt or can switch to blade or cone salt spreader. But you nead lots of weight on rear 3pt . Blowers are great in the rite app but are slow and if the wind changes direction very messy, I hated my rear 3pt hitch one, going backwards sucks. I love my JD can out plow ANYTHING else Except of course a Bigger JD. If you have a truck you can get to sites a little faster than in a tractor, BUT it really is 6 one way have a dozen the other way. Bottom line is you nead both, trucks and tractors, with lots of toys for them. 
A loader with a V plow is REALLY hard to beat!


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Yes, yes, and yes go for it. We keep our equipment 15 years, and then can still get around 20% for it on a trade in. If it takes you 7 years to pay it off, you still have 8 years with no payments to look forward to. Your maintenance and fuel costs will be loads less than a truck, and you can do so much more.
You mention its a $85 grand investment, lets look at that. I am assuming you can get 0% over 5 years for that price you got quoted. So you are looking at a payment of $1,416.00 / month lets double that since you make no money with it during the summer. So you pay your monthly finance and set aside the same amount for the summer payments. That means it is going to cost you 17 grand for the winter season for 5 seasons. (remember after 5 years it paid off, but it will still have a value of at least 45 grand) Now how much work are you looking to get with this tractor? 30, 40, 50, 60+ grand? Lets pick 40 grand and remove your 17, leaving you with 23 grand, for labour, fuel, maintenance and damage repairs. Now I know that does not seem like much, but you do retain the value of your equipment. After those 5 years, no no longer have to remove the $17 grand payments, but you will have to lower the value of your equipment around 3 grand a year. I find many people forget that they are paying off equipment over 5 years yet retaining it for 15. You are investing in your business. Now the numbers I am giving are just rough ideas, but close enough to figured things out. If you do find someone who wants to rent your tractor for the summer months, be sure they are taking good care of it, and not fudging the odometer. Personally I would never rent my tractor out to a company that does highway grass cutting, but that's just me speaking from my own experience.


----------



## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

MIDTOWNPC;1497193 said:


> I'll let you know but since the dealer sold it and those are the mounts Horst sells I think it will be fine. I have the 5083e and the Horst direct lift 913 snow wing.
> 
> I don't know how you can put a truck setup te same way beside it unless you mount a Horst to a truck. The benefit of the truck is it could salt but one thing that made me go to a tractor is the maintenance factor the visibility and the insurance. I really considered another bobcat but road speed was the other thing. I did buy a two speed a300 bobcat also which I really want to try a Horst 913 on also


Watch your frame very carefully. I know of a 5083 that cracked in half, it had a Blizzard 8611 on the front.

As far as outfitting them the same, expand your horizons. I'm talking about the one that Ebling puts together.

8611 and 16' rear plow.

Same for the truck.

The tractor will do a minimum of 50% more.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Appreciate all your responses. Neige, I have been running the basic numbers as you have stated using a few different business plans. Commerc lots vs Resi etc. It would seem that it would be hard to go wrong given the fact that I now turn away business almost every year. Usually based on the fact that the lots are too far away geographically from my center of work. 

I currently have 2 more lots than I can Handle with my current equipment and another that wants me to sign a multi yr retainer to do their lot after mid season. Not sure how that will work but if they are willing to pay x amount to ensure i will cover them for half the year whether we have snow or not I guess I am game. 

The great thing about the Resi Blower business model is that you the planner establish where your work will be most efficient and sell there. Comm lots come and go for different reasons in general. I have been fortunate to retain the same lots for many yrs based on my low overhead and efficient work plan. However, being maxed out with the equipment I have; that all folks. I am ready to go to the next level.

I don't even think I can trailer a 5 series deere blower/ plow combo with my 2500HD and 5 ton trailer so it probably means I could go for a larger deere or NH 6 series Etc. if that was a more effective use of the money. I will have to hire someone to run my truck for salt as that is 30-40% of my business or more. My new two new accts plus all but one of the old all want salt this yr so basically everyone get a billable treated salt operation after a storm. I also need to upgrade my salter and go to a flatbed truck but will hold off til next year.

I'm the same way with my equipment. I don't really want to lease it out. Damage happens too easily. I'd entertain Farm or haying usage but Probably not roadwork and definitely not woods work. You can beat any pc of equipment in the woods. I don't care how big it is.

Still, from a business perspective it probably make sense. I would like to purchase my first machine and see how it goes then perhap lease to own a second if things go well.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Oh ya, the down side of the resi business blower model is that the marketing, contracting, invoicing, receivables and office work will be amplified 100 times what it takes me to do my limited commercial accounts all on seasonal payment plans. You have to figure that money into the mix. 

For me it's the old "what you don't know, you don't know"!! that will kick my a$$ probably. 

I do see the glass half empty sometimes. I always struggle with the office work. Just terrible with paper work. The next level to me means I don't do the office paper work. I establish the business plan, make the decisions. Etc. No more billing and bookkeeping. So, there is more than just equipment expense to think about especially if you're talking 150 drives/accounts per machine on the resi end. That implies a full time office person. $40-$50k a year I would think. 

I think the prices in my area would be higher than avg for a drive but the distance between neighborhoods would offset any advantage there. Also I live in one of the most expensive parts of the country. Labor is very expensive here as costs of living are high. That is a concern with the multi tractor scenario.(thinking aloud again)


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

DFD9, I thought the 5 series all had full length frames for strength vs the typical tractor tranny frame. Deere (maybe others) has had issues in the past mostly due to backhoe use. I was looking at the 5 series in particular because of that and I've had good luck with my JD1070 and JD750 before that. I am going to look at the Horst front frame mt vs the LaForge front 3PH mounts. Not sure at the moment if they are at all different. Kubota front mount blower frame a friend owns has a frame that goes all the way back I believe. 

I want to keep my clearances high but dont like the idea of running a pusher or horst wing off loader arms. Can anyone shed light onto this question of front 3PH for Horst wing plow or alternatives. When someone says direct mount is this what they are referring to?

Also someone mentioned Front PTO. I wouldn't want a rear conversion to front hanging down in the way or not sure how the front crankshaft models work. I'd be afraid of breaking something.


----------



## Plow horse (Oct 18, 2009)

*I agree*

Why not find a good used John Deere, They are very reliable. I would be hard pressed to find to many people that care about there own equipment let alone leasing it out for the average Joe to DESTROY. You all know what I mean, it sucks but people just dont give a dam about your stuff, " Funny they should worship the ground of this nice equipment that we supply for them so they can work in comfort AND Safety to fead there familys, But no"... Any how new some times is not allways the best way to go, I have been wrong before Though!


----------



## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

The tractor resi rear blower situation that Neige has established is great for him my hats off to him. I am experimenting with it here but for that to work you do driveways only which is great if you have the public (trained) to that. In an area where there sidewalks, stoops, patios and such have always been included with there driveway plowing it is a tough sell. I have heard comments like "why would I pay you to clear my driveway and then get home from work and do the hardest part which is my city sidewalk" or I tell them that I have a company that would be happy to do your shoveling at an attractive rate and then I usually get "why would I want to deal with 2 outfits to get my snow cleared" I do think in time you can build up a good route but very difficult to sell something different than they are used to.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Bought my last two Compacts used. While it worked out fine, now we are talking big bucks. At least big money to me. The fact that i won't have a back up tractor plus I need good financing. I will be asking the dealer about a loaner if the tractor quits mid storm. Not sure what I would do if that happened. No one has time during a NorEasta...

New financing almost erases the buy new cost barrier. I'm also feeling old. Almost 50... I often plow around the clock. 12- 20 hrs. I want to be comfortable and I want some bells and whistles that come with the newer cab layouts. Trans option etc. I'm in the northeast as well. Not a lot of farming here and as a result finding a used tractor to look at within driving distance is not looking good. Plenty of good used stuff in Canada and the midwest I see. 

I am considering the size of the 6 series also because I think you do get more for your money and I guess the size is not an issue for drives as that is the size many use. I am more comfortable with commercial contract work. Many Businesses cIose at night or on Sundays. I probably will not give up my bread and butter light commercial work. However, the nationalization of the more lucrative accounts where you are turned into a pawn for big business seems to be the trend. No one has established a resi-blower business yet here though I learned about one in the next town 20 mi away.

So while I agree Snowlord that it could be an up hill battle, my area has quite a few upscale neighborhoods that show the potential. Standard Resi plowing in my area does not include sidewalks or shoveling. No one wants to pay or get charged for salt. I used to spread it as a bonus/ gift I guess. No charge. Getting money from potential Residential customers in this economy may be another thing too. Rates around here have not raised in 5 years. 

I started out a dozen yrs ago doing mixed resi/comm. Driveways were always a hard sell. I can hear the homeowner now " What, you want $45. to do my 100ft drive and front facing 3 car garage. It only takes you 10 minutes or less. " $45. would have been for 6" or less and min 2 trips. Meanwhile he's polishing his wife's Hummer in the heated garage with flatscreen on his $750k property that the town taxes him 20k a year for 2 miles off the beaten path. I grew to have a bad attitude. Can you tell... I went to a seasonal price for all remaining resi's last yr. I contracted only 3 out of the 9 that had been with me and underpaying for years, which was fine. I was happy about it. 

To go resi again the plan would have to be set prices for estabished sizes. No wheeling and dealing. XtremePlowing has a NJ website and business that was pretty informative on how they have configured it. $350 per drive is not enough here though. More like $450. - 650 range.


----------



## Plow horse (Oct 18, 2009)

*6000 jd*

The best part of JD 6000 series is they are not to big, tall, but have enough A$$!!! The 7000 are to tall. As you know when it snows everything gets waited down tree limbs and such so you have to watch that exspecially with bigger mach. 5000 series is to small and slow, except in parking lots. The JD 6000 series goes like 28 mph, not to bad if you can keep it between the lines at that speed. I love my JD 6200, hydro, power rev, roomier cab than the new ones. I have a JD 750 also great little tractor.


----------



## StuveCorp (Dec 20, 2005)

SNOWLORD;1497367 said:


> The tractor resi rear blower situation that Neige has established is great for him my hats off to him. I am experimenting with it here but for that to work you do driveways only which is great if you have the public (trained) to that. In an area where there sidewalks, stoops, patios and such have always been included with there driveway plowing it is a tough sell. I have heard comments like "why would I pay you to clear my driveway and then get home from work and do the hardest part which is my city sidewalk" or I tell them that I have a company that would be happy to do your shoveling at an attractive rate and then I usually get "why would I want to deal with 2 outfits to get my snow cleared" I do think in time you can build up a good route but very difficult to sell something different than they are used to.


I dearly love the whole tractor blower 'system' but am not getting any positive responses back from potential clients. The other part that seems to be a 'problem' to them is the one price for a season...


----------



## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

consider acgo or massy...good tractors and your not paying a premium for the paint!


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Leolkfrm I don't have dealers close enough. Closest Massey if they are still in business is around 75 miles away. Maybe more. Takes about an hour and 20 min.


----------



## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

SNOWLORD;1497367 said:


> The tractor resi rear blower situation that Neige has established is great for him my hats off to him. I am experimenting with it here but for that to work you do driveways only which is great if you have the public (trained) to that. In an area where there sidewalks, stoops, patios and such have always been included with there driveway plowing it is a tough sell. I have heard comments like "why would I pay you to clear my driveway and then get home from work and do the hardest part which is my city sidewalk" or I tell them that I have a company that would be happy to do your shoveling at an attractive rate and then I usually get "why would I want to deal with 2 outfits to get my snow cleared" I do think in time you can build up a good route but very difficult to sell something different than they are used to.


Having the public "trained" (or used to) this type of service is a good point. This area sounds the same as yours, in respect to including shoveling/clearing the front porch & walk to drive(never been asked to clear patios or city walks though).



StuveCorp;1497538 said:


> I dearly love the whole tractor blower 'system' but am not getting any positive responses back from potential clients. The other part that seems to be a 'problem' to them is the one price for a season...


Agreed. Seasonal is a very tough sell here....I feel it has to do with the low snow average in my area.

My idea is to sell them on the seasonal...the tractor/blower part will be for my advantage due to efficiency. 90% seem to care less how I get it done....but once they see the results (especially on an above avg winter), I think it will make an impression that will be hard to forget. It may be a while before it takes off for me, but I beleive it would work....even in a low snow area like mine. My biggest obstacle is selling them on the seasonal.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ya one price for the season was not seen in a good light for the few resi's I had left from doing all resi's a dozen yrs ago. I have been spoiling them for years so that is probably not a good indicator. Also the list was mostly older folks. I tried to explain via a letter the intent was to charge them for an avg snow fall year to eliminate the potential for high bills. They did not bite. 

I had one older lady who actually stared me down and refused to pay even though I had a copy of her signed seasonal contract with me and even though I cut her bill in half. She had the ability to pay, she simply didn't have the desire. She eventually sent me a check with a kind note 3 months later. Go figure. We didn't have a lot of snow. Old Yankees can be a tough crowd though.


----------



## StuveCorp (Dec 20, 2005)

snocrete;1497629 said:


> Agreed. Seasonal is a very tough sell here....I feel it has to do with the low snow average in my area.
> 
> My idea is to sell them on the seasonal...the tractor/blower part will be for my advantage due to efficiency. 90% seem to care less how I get it done....but once they see the results (especially on an above avg winter), I think it will make an impression that will be hard to forget. It may be a while before it takes off for me, but I beleive it would work....even in a low snow area like mine. My biggest obstacle is selling them on the seasonal.


That is a good point, maybe don't spend so much time on the tractor/blower part. I think if you could afford to get things and ride out a couple slow years eventially it would pay off.


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

I want to point out the scenario I showed is not only for resi drives, you can take those numbers and use them for commercial use also. Or in the beggining a split of resi and commercial lots. I know the ag tractor can be a great versatile machine for snow use. It is definitely not the only way to go, but it sure does have some great advantages.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I will say this. I have no desire to get into it (blower residential) if it means counting inches or storms. I'm done with that. A billing nightmare. Being on the coast, very often, there is a 6" difference just a mile off to the west. Sometimes the coast gets hit but usually it is inland a mile where my commercial accounts are. It makes billing by any measured storm method a nightmare for both comm. and resi. . By the push is an Ok way and you can make some good money in high snow yrs. By the storm is not something I have ever considered. Too many variables makes contract writing a nightmare.

Having a website with all the info available could sell it around here I think.


----------



## Plow horse (Oct 18, 2009)

*Ag vs backhoe*

I have run all sorts of equipment, 1000's of hrs in bachoes and wheeled loaders in the snow, they work, vs a ag tractor no contest. My JD is like velcro on snow and ice. I do a lot of hilly places and I cant tell you how many times I have been called in to pull them out and plow the drive, cause they slid off drive. Blowers are to slow, BUT the Idea is there! Do not give up!!! AND dont give up because of the general public, no matter what they need US!!!! P.S. Have you seen the hydrolic units with engines so as to make a snow blower work if your hydrolics can not run it?


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Plow horse, question- does it make much of a difference when on snow or ice if you have Radial tire vs the bias. The recent quote I just got on the 5101E was with bias tires I never heard of. Prob cheapest chinese rubber they could get. I have run firestones R1's on my 1070. I have studded logging chain on all summer on the rear for woods work. I just leave them on now as the loaded rears don't hold that well in the ice without them. 

I guess my question is; given paved lot use, will radial R1's have much more traction. Any thoughts?


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

"I have run all sorts of equipment, 1000's of hrs in bachoes and wheeled loaders in the snow, they work, vs a ag tractor no contest. My JD is like velcro on snow and ice", " BUT the Idea is there! Do not give up!!! AND dont give up because of the general public" -Plow horse

Well, it looks like this thread is coming to it's end. A sincere Thank you to all that contributed.

-Deereguy


----------



## Plow horse (Oct 18, 2009)

*R 1*

I have bias on rite now, R1. I am running BKT 12 ply, it is a harder tire than radial and I know radial get better traction but the bkt have been good for me, I do a lot of road running, I rotary mow and I get into crazy stuff and I have not had to much down time cause of running something over.


----------



## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

Any long lane that you used to do by truck will be effortless and much quicker with a blower.
Seasonal pricing rules up here but 2 years of below avg snowfall have people wanting per occurence pricing. 2" or 20" doesn't matter to them just a per storm cost. Weird.
What you need is an up front retainer, it's expensive to be available 24/7 for the winter with your nice new machine. Assuming that your seasonal price was $500 based on 10 storms, collect $250 to be their snow services provider at the beginning of the season and bill $25 per clearing.
Might be an easier sell. And you'd collect 50% up front. Sweet !
jmo


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

I really have to refrain from getting going about how much I love tractors for snow. Unless a specific application calls for it, I honestly don't plan on purchasing anything but tractors for my snow operations anytime in the near future.. Commercial or resi. I rent the loaders and backhoes for the accounts that require them, and buy tractors for everything else.

I've decided upon the M7040 for my applications, and unless I need a larger or different model for a specific application, or something else changes, all my tractors will be the M7040 until Kubota stops making them.. I really wanted to go the direction of standardization and every day I realize more and more what a good move it was. For instance, servicing each unit is identical. When I send someone out to grease them, every grease point is located in the same spot. They know that there are 6 on the back of each, and 5 upfront on each. I wrote a service manual that covers all my tractors. It outlines my expectations of service across all units. So now if my mechanic leaves the company, then I hand this manual to the next guy with average mechanical skills and when the process is followed, every tractor will be serviced to the identical expectation. My next project I'm working on is laying out and building the most efficient shovelers truck I can come up with, and then when I perfect that, I'll standardize any truck I use for shoveling by following this same concept I use for tractors. Similar to the concept of SouthWest Airlines using only Boeing 737's...

But onto why I like tractors.. I plow for 20 hours or so on a negligible amount of fuel in them. In that time, we might fill up once. MIGHT fill up once, and thats with leaving it with a full tank at the end of the storm.. The next big advantage is cost. Compare the cost of pushing a 16' blade with a tractor VS. pushing a 16' blade with a loader... BIG cost difference there.. Following that, I'd have to say that the visibility and comfort in tractors is second to none. And lastly the attachement capability is almost endless with them, especially with the advantage of being able to have a front and rear attachement operating at the same time. You can have salt spreaders, loader, buckets, pushers, plows, pusher/plow combos, rear mount blades of several types, rear or front mount snow blowers inverted or regular, it really just goes on and on... With a loader its more like what kind of pusher (or occasionally plow) do you want to put on it?

Just for a simple example, think of pushing a lot with a loader/pusher combo. You know those trails that come out off either side of the pusher? Well if your in a tractor, throw on a rear blade that is a couple feet wider than the front blade and now your picking up everything (including trails) in one pass.. That just tripled efficiency because instead of pushing the same area 3 times (main push, and two trail pushes) the same amount of area can be completed by going down the lot 1 time, instead of 3 times. Keep in mind this example isn't scientific and is situational, but I believe paul has a good video of a New Holland doing this in a train station parking lot..

Also, consider the licensing required of operators for tractors vs. operators of loaders... People with more qualifications want more money, and thats less money to your bottom line.

Of course, this isn't to say that every equipment type doesn't have its place. I find it fascinating how different every company is set up, yet well all accomplish the same thing each storm..

But as you can tell from the pic, I've been bit by the tractor bug.


----------



## Plow horse (Oct 18, 2009)

*Nice picture*

How do you like Kubota?? HA HA!!! I whole hartly agree with you, just my tractors are green.


----------



## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

BlackIrish;1499639 said:


> Any long lane that you used to do by truck will be effortless and much quicker with a blower.
> Seasonal pricing rules up here but 2 years of below avg snowfall have people wanting per occurence pricing. 2" or 20" doesn't matter to them just a per storm cost. Weird.
> What you need is an up front retainer, it's expensive to be available 24/7 for the winter with your nice new machine. Assuming that your seasonal price was $500 based on 10 storms, collect $250 to be their snow services provider at the beginning of the season and bill $25 per clearing.
> Might be an easier sell. And you'd collect 50% up front. Sweet !
> jmo


And bill $50 per clearing. Not $25. 
your cheating yourself  I think we know what you ment though


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Hey Collin, how's it going. Ya, just can't justify the price of a new truck when a tractor will do so much more albeit more expensive initially. From a cost standpoint moving snow is not going to put that many hrs on it compared to crop work and in 10 years most likely will retain quite a bit of value. So, with the efficiencies as you and everyone else agrees on it makes sense for me to make the change. Getting late in the season is all. 

I will check into the Kubota specs. I was not looking at them as I have a buddy with one that has had trouble with service from Plaistow, right when he needed it with units still under warranty. So I'm not interested in buying from them. He really has not been treated well. Perhaps you have a different story. I assume you deal with them as they are the closest to us. I can't tell what you are running for blowers. Can you enlighten me. Do you still have Kohls this year?


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

DeereGuy;1500141 said:


> Hey Collin, how's it going. Ya, just can't justify the price of a new truck when a tractor will do so much more albeit more expensive initially. From a cost standpoint moving snow is not going to put that many hrs on it compared to crop work and in 10 years most likely will retain quite a bit of value. So, with the efficiencies as you and everyone else agrees on it makes sense for me to make the change. Getting late in the season is all.
> 
> I will check into the Kubota specs. I was not looking at them as I have a buddy with one that has had trouble with service from Plaistow, right when he needed it with units still under warranty. So I'm not interested in buying from them. He really has not been treated well. Perhaps you have a different story. I assume you deal with them as they are the closest to us. I can't tell what you are running for blowers. Can you enlighten me. Do you still have Kohls this year?


DeereGuy I can answer that, he is running Normand 92 inch inverted. I know because I sold them to him. It sucks about the dealer problem, I think in the next few years you are going to see dealers improve their service, once they notice more and more companies switching over to tractors, service is going to become very important. Here in Quebec the dealers have service trucks, and their parts department is open 24/7, just need to call 30 minuets in advance for the parts guy to show up and open the door. Yes there is a $50 fee associated with it, but worth ever penny.Thumbs Up


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Hey Neige, Thanks for answering. Are you a rep with Normand. I was perhaps supposed to meet with my JD rep and P. Vandersen this last week or next week. At least that was what he emailed me. Not sure if it will happen. But, we'll see. Hard to tell what is real and what is sales BS. I am now looking at a Deere 5115M for my comm work and setting it up with a rear Normand or Pronovost blower and front pusher of some sort. Most of my efficiencies would be in the small commercial side with the pusher. Waiting on a price on a HLA snowing 9-13 or similar. I would like to run it off a front 3ph. Any knowledge or suggestions on that would be appreciated. LaForge or I have read Normand has their own lift, but I don't know much about it. If you are a reseller PM me. Thanks.


----------



## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

DeereGuy;1500328 said:


> Hey Neige, Thanks for answering. Are you a rep with Normand. I was perhaps supposed to meet with my JD rep and P. Vandersen this last week or next week. At least that was what he emailed me. Not sure if it will happen. But, we'll see. Hard to tell what is real and what is sales BS. .


Hey P.V. does this qualify as "awkward" ?
roflmao


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Sorry, did I overstep... Just trying to figure things out. Not wishing to insult. I guess I don't know who everyone is here. Anyway, the above thread is based on honest needs, impressions, feedback from my personal experiences and a desire to succeed and plan for future business. No more, no less...


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ok, so I clicked on Neige's listed links, Hey what to you know... innocent mistake. Not so awkward. So my question is, what size inverted on a deere 5115m and how many rear remotes. Thanks


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm a fan of Fendt's as I like to look at total cost of ownership. Fendt has the most impressive record but you pay for it. They have a ton of innovations on their machines and pioneered many of them, but most importantly, they all work. Downtime is next to none with a Fendt. But again you pay for them. Complimentary service during the warranty period of 3,000hrs and 36 months is included in the price. That means they change you filters and fluids and do all other scheduled maintenances in that time period.

Their CVT is the original and there isn't one out yet that is as reliable and simple. The planetary that drives even the biggest 420hp tractor is still only the size of a DVD. 33mph is standard as is axle suspension and true 3pt air ride cab suspension.

Front 3pt and PTO are easy to come by on them as they are european where both of those are commonplace.

If you can afford one, you wont be dissapointed.

Heres a link to the new 700 series.

http://www.fendt.com/us/1869.asp



DeereGuy;1497358 said:


> Also someone mentioned Front PTO. I wouldn't want a rear conversion to front hanging down in the way or not sure how the front crankshaft models work. I'd be afraid of breaking something.


We run a 300hp tractor with a crankshaft style PTO. Runs a mower on the front. It has performed flawlessly. It scared me at first as it literally is a shaft that bolts to the crankshaft and has its own rubber dampner in addition to the original engine one, that goes up to the gearbox.

Zuidberg is the brand we use.



DeereGuy;1497725 said:


> Plow horse, question- does it make much of a difference when on snow or ice if you have Radial tire vs the bias. The recent quote I just got on the 5101E was with bias tires I never heard of. Prob cheapest chinese rubber they could get. I have run firestones R1's on my 1070. I have studded logging chain on all summer on the rear for woods work. I just leave them on now as the loaded rears don't hold that well in the ice without them.
> 
> I guess my question is; given paved lot use, will radial R1's have much more traction. Any thoughts?


Radials will always outperform bias especially when clearing snow. Time on pavement is where the radials shine. Thats why you dont see them on cars or trucks anymore and anything larger than a utility tractor in Ag doesnt have them either.

Michelins will wear best, ride the nicest and provide good traction, but you will pay for it. The firestones will grip to a side hill a little better and are a little cheaper but the ride quality is much poorer.



DeereGuy;1500328 said:


> Hey Neige, Thanks for answering. Are you a rep with Normand. I was perhaps supposed to meet with my JD rep and P. Vandersen this last week or next week. At least that was what he emailed me. Not sure if it will happen. But, we'll see. Hard to tell what is real and what is sales BS. I am now looking at a Deere 5115M for my comm work and setting it up with a rear Normand or Pronovost blower and front pusher of some sort. Most of my efficiencies would be in the small commercial side with the pusher. Waiting on a price on a HLA snowing 9-13 or similar. I would like to run it off a front 3ph. Any knowledge or suggestions on that would be appreciated. LaForge or I have read Normand has their own lift, but I don't know much about it. If you are a reseller PM me. Thanks.


Laforge does a lot of deere stuff and is the factory supplier. Zuidberg is another option.

Good luck.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

durallymax, thanks for the info. 
I Looked at all the Fendt videos when I started thinking about this a month ago. Closest dealer is 200 mi away across the border so I don't think it would be wise to pursue them. It appears Agco owns fendt and we do have a Massy dealer a couple hrs out but I have not seen a fendt tractor in person. The mechanics of it sound great though.

How would they service the unit without a dealer in the states? Also, the price would probably be hard to justify for winter work. I like the fendt vid of one plowing a mountain rd with what appears to be a snow-wing or similar. The thing just keeps on going. A 935 I think.

Anyway, I will look into the Zuidberg and your Radial assessment seems logical. I just don't have experience with radials on tractors but the Deere M I am interested in has them. The E that they already priced out does not.

The LaForge has pretty good capacities on the M and drops a bit on the specs for the E. I will compare with the brand you mentioned. Thx


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

DeereGuy;1500367 said:


> Sorry, did I overstep... Just trying to figure things out. Not wishing to insult. I guess I don't know who everyone is here. Anyway, the above thread is based on honest needs, impressions, feedback from my personal experiences and a desire to succeed and plan for future business. No more, no less...


No need for apologies, yes I am the guy you are supposed to be meeting with at JD. Last week was just impossible for me. This week is just as insane, I will see if I can get away on Tuesday or if its going to be Friday. Feel free to call me any time. 514.608.4675 Paul


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ok Paul Thanks, Let me know even if it's last minute. I'm pretty flexible. I'll give you a call at some point so you have a number for me in any event.

-Eric


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

DeereGuy;1500621 said:


> Ok Paul Thanks, Let me know even if it's last minute. I'm pretty flexible. I'll give you a call at some point so you have a number for me in any event.
> 
> -Eric


Eric I agree about plaistow... It's pretty horrible there in my opinion. Kind of that attitude if your not buddies with everyone there, or don't spend $100k a year, they hardly notice your in the room. And horrible service department that takes weeks to get in and has no service truck or 24 hour on call service..

I would suggest you contact Chappell Tractor in either Brentwood or Milford. That's where my most recent came for and I can report a much more positive experience than the ones that came from MB.


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

DeereGuy;1500500 said:


> durallymax, thanks for the info.
> I Looked at all the Fendt videos when I started thinking about this a month ago. Closest dealer is 200 mi away across the border so I don't think it would be wise to pursue them. It appears Agco owns fendt and we do have a Massy dealer a couple hrs out but I have not seen a fendt tractor in person. The mechanics of it sound great though.
> 
> How would they service the unit without a dealer in the states? Also, the price would probably be hard to justify for winter work. I like the fendt vid of one plowing a mountain rd with what appears to be a snow-wing or similar. The thing just keeps on going. A 935 I think.
> ...


Fendt is owned by Agco and is sold through Agco Dealers who have the rights to sell them. IIRC, not every dealer can sell them, or maybe every dealer can but only certain ones actually get the good deals.

Thr Fendt's apply to a niche market. People who use their equipment a lot and will see the cost savings. If you need speed comfort and reliability they are great. But you do pay for it. There definatley is something to say about a branf that is growing as fast as they are with minimal advertisement and having to be sold alongside their less expensivr counterparts. youll see a small add here or there from Fendt but they arent at many trade shows anymore and they dont sponsor anything.

they are expanding their facilities to keep up right now. currently they supply 30,000 transmissions a year to Massey/Challenger, JCB and Valtra may still be using them, as well a their own tractora of course. The trans is simple, two variable displacement pumps alter the flow to a hydraulic motor which varies the way the power travels through the planetary. its not a hydro though. the best part is you can still run it when everything fails, its not an electrical nightmare and theres no clutchpacks to shift like the others. In limp home mode you simply run the transmission with the service handle that inserts through a hole in the floor. just twist it to spee up and slow down.

the entire transmission is sealed and can be replaced in a day or less. You simply remove the cab, remove the housing cover, uncouple the shafts a couple of hoses and wires and lift the assenbly out. The assembly is not serviceable by anyone other than fendt. so you drop a new one in and go. Most failures are from improper operation or lack of maintenance. They do stock these at the main parts hubs in the USA, and they arent really that expensive. They are very small and compact and can be moved by a couple people. they also run the transmission seperate from the hydraulics to avoid contamination. furthermore when they sit in nuetral they are in nuetral even though they wont let the tractor move. other "CVT"s like Case IHs actuslly have to work to stay in nuetral and burn fuel which is why after 30 seconds they go to park.

Not trying to pursuade you more just giving a little insight to how ingenious the company is.

Your massey dealer will be able to get all of the parts for you. you would have to talk to them about service and repair though.

sometimes they work out a lower price if you do the service work.

I can assure you the tractor wont let you down but having to go 200 miles if the local dealer wont be any help could be a deal breaker.

the initial capital investment is huge, but you will get it back in higher resale. go online and look around, its hard to find good used Fendts because of their demand.

if you do find more summer work they will be more versatile, but you really need to put the hours on to see the advantage.

they are impressive tractors. we ran a 933 reverse station on a big snowblower and it was a lot of fun. used it for loading trucks clearing back curbs versus the villages and counties wasting time with a wheel loader. only problem is having enough trucks. I also didnt like looking through the linea of the rear window heater and probably would spec one without it if we ever specd one.

good luck.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Hey Collin, I may try to find some time to get down and look at your blowers if you are available and are willing sometime. Maxed for today but will give you a shout tomorrow or wed and see what your schedule looks like. Ya, I strongly suggested to the guy to take it to Chappell and that's where it's at now. At least they treat you like a normal person there. MB had the guys tractor for 3 months and did nothing. When it overheated multiple times last winter it was because they forgot to put the fan belt back on. On exam. they also didnt replace the filters or fluids they charged him for. Go figure.

I also, buy all my small items at Chappell there if they carry them. Fluid Film by the gallon for one. I didn't realize you had branched out into the resi market with tractors. Looks good. NIce Web site.

durallymax, I think all I can do is drool for now...Nice write up


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

durallymax;1500824 said:


> Fendt is owned by Agco and is sold through Agco Dealers who have the rights to sell them. IIRC, not every dealer can sell them, or maybe every dealer can but only certain ones actually get the good deals.
> 
> Thr Fendt's apply to a niche market. People who use their equipment a lot and will see the cost savings. If you need speed comfort and reliability they are great. But you do pay for it. There definatley is something to say about a branf that is growing as fast as they are with minimal advertisement and having to be sold alongside their less expensivr counterparts. youll see a small add here or there from Fendt but they arent at many trade shows anymore and they dont sponsor anything.
> 
> ...


I'm sure they are really nice machines. However, for a snow removal operation bottom line is everything as we all know, and thats a pretty hefty price tag on those Fendt units.. I cannot imagine justifying a unit that serious, new, for snow. I'm sure they last forever, but so will a JD, Kubota, or NH tractor that doesn't see more than 150 hours in an entire year, and one that is maintained properly in the off season of sitting.

Although I just went on their website and checked it out. Those cabs do look pretty serious, I love all the screens everywhere. Unless I was paying for them that is..


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Well, I'd like the road speed on a Fendt. 24 - 25mph in a 5 series deere is not fast enough. Thats with the 32/16 plus. I assume the reg 16/16 doesn't even do that.

Collin, I sent a PM but I dont see that it went through. Give you a call tomorrow if you're around.

-Eric


----------



## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

24-25 mph is not fast enough?? 20mph+ is a little sketchy in a farm tractor, especially a small framed one in the snow.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ya, getting that picture.. But you've never seen me plow 

Guess I've been watching too many JDeere advertising videos. The ones filmed in Germany with the tractor pulling a wagon of hay down a pristine hedgerow road all the while with the 2012 Olympic feel good song playing in the background...


I do tend to plow fast but I'm thinking road travel.. and the logistics of time with my accounts. I have 8 miles end to end between my accounts. What do you think is a realistic speed with this tractor with a 9-15 HLA plow (2000lbs) off the front and probably loaded rears and a snowblower on rear. Please say at least 20 mph. If not I may have to rethink. This is one major make or break spec for me. I can do my condos on one end pick up salt and open up my biggest lot 2 mi down and then drive to my parked tractor where my 4 comm lots are. I will have to drive the 8 miles to the condos during large storms though and back to my commerc. lots again.


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

rob_cook2001;1501073 said:


> 24-25 mph is not fast enough?? 20mph+ is a little sketchy in a farm tractor, especially a small framed one in the snow.


the difference in 33mph versus 25 can mean a lot of money for some people and some applications. For snow plowing its nice going from job to job.

I feel safer in a fendt at 33mph than many other things. Dual circuit air/hydraulic brakes ensure you can always stop. Air trailer brakes add to tge safety. The exhaust brake further adds to the ability to stop 120,000lbs faster than an 18 wheeler. Adding to the safety is the auxillary steering pump mounted to the rear axle, if you loose power you retain steering as long as you are moving. Front axle suspension is mandatory on high speed tractors in the usa. fendt goes another atep further with independent front suspension on the 900 series that you can make kneel to you for easier service. the front suspension along with the cab suspension are used for the tractors active stability control system which actually helps lean the tractor into corners.

Are american manufacturers decades behind? modt certainly. They don't even have tires to use on these tractors. Michelin and Trelleborg are thr main suppliers.

Tractors have come along way from those of yesteryear. all the way to the point that the FMCSA wants a piece now. they want to start inspecting them and requiring CDLs to operate them.

i realize fendts are not practical solely for snow unless you have money to blow. if thats the case you may want to spring for one of the "beauty packages" which comes with stainless grilles, chrome exhaust, special hood ornament an steeribg wheel and your choice of 4 special colors and 2 different rim colors. might as well get the true fridge/hotbox too.


----------



## Plow horse (Oct 18, 2009)

*don't speed*

20 mph in the snow is an adverture, 25 is scarey, I can not imagine going 35 mph in the snow.. I do like the Idea of the speed.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ok, spoke with HLA(horst), The goal was to push a 9-15 sno-wing off a frame mt lift with an option to use the loader arms for stacking or doing different things. Tractor will handle a Horst 10-16 but I wanted to be within the legal road limits. Angled, the Blade measures 103 width which is one inch over. Oh Well. The Horst frame lift goes all the way back to the rear and hangs down a bit as a result. 

More importantly you can not use the loader at all as the front of the horst mount sticks out to far off the nose. Nothing's easy I guess, I know guys use the loader arms but blowing $10K on bent arms is not my idea of fun. And I don't want to have to worry about it. Lots of side load pressures in heavy wet snow around here. Never mind the invisible obstructions. The horst does have reliefs on the hyd wings and trip edged main blade so its really just side snow load that is an issue. 

Laforge has a pushbar setup for an extra grand but the sales person suggested that at $500. for an arm on the lift they sell, replacement is not a big deal If it gives you just plug another one on. So an expensive shear pin if you will. Not a huge expense and almost no down time. I guess I need to see one in order to take in what other damage could occur if the part he was talking about failed. I will probably just push off the loader arms at this point. Not what I wanted to do.

Lars from Laforge is going to send me some schematics I guess.


I know, I know. If I were to spend $199K on a new Fendt 720 then life would be grand. Can't do it on my income.


----------



## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

2011 Fendt 211 with 550hrs is $80K, 110hp will take care of most anything.
Not so out of reach as you thought.
For a unit that would see 150hrs a year, for me its a chunk of change, of course when I died they'd still be blowing.
Unless its easy financing if you buy new i don't know why you aren't looking used.
You can probably find an equipped unit for a lot less coin.


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

Plow horse;1501120 said:


> 20 mph in the snow is an adverture, 25 is scarey, I can not imagine going 35 mph in the snow.. I do like the Idea of the speed.


Like anything you can't be a [email protected] With a tractor, just like an 18 wheel versus a pickup and a pickup versus a car, weight is on your side.

Just don't try it with floaters on. Suicide.

Remember I come from large row crop tractors (25,000-45,000lbs, 200-400hp) so you are much more in control at those speeds than in a smaller tractor. We run Dual 480R50 Michelins on the rear of our tanker tractor and in the winter it will walk circles around the 710R42s or the 800R38s, but on clear roads the bigger tires ride much nicer and in the summer fields they get better traction and are easier on the soil. The only reason we don't run floaters on that tractor is because of our winter hauling and safety concerns. Until we quit hauling in winter we have to stay with skinny tires.



DeereGuy;1501246 said:


> Ok, spoke with HLA(horst), The goal was to push a 9-15 sno-wing off a frame mt lift with an option to use the loader arms for stacking or doing different things. Tractor will handle a Horst 10-16 but I wanted to be within the legal road limits. Angled, the Blade measures 103 width which is one inch over. Oh Well. The Horst frame lift goes all the way back to the rear and hangs down a bit as a result.
> 
> More importantly you can not use the loader at all as the front of the horst mount sticks out to far off the nose. Nothing's easy I guess, I know guys use the loader arms but blowing $10K on bent arms is not my idea of fun. And I don't want to have to worry about it. Lots of side load pressures in heavy wet snow around here. Never mind the invisible obstructions. The horst does have reliefs on the hyd wings and trip edged main blade so its really just side snow load that is an issue.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't stress over 1" when you are in a tractor.

I don't know much about the smaller setups, but on the larger tractors a blade tied in through the frame is a much sturdier package. Most will tie in at the very front, then midway and some will extend another support all the way to the rear. This is for the tractors sake more than anything. It ties the frame sections together reducing the chances for failures. Believe it or not people have "broken their tractors in half" on more than one occasion. The loader frame wont harm the tractor much because the loader itself will twist into a pretzel before that happens.

All of our silage blades have reliefs in the pivot function that will allow the blade to pivot if there is too much resistance or you strike something.

Again, I know nothing on the true snow plowing setup like you are going for. I can only speak from experience pushing silage.

You wont pay 199,000 for a 720 Fendt, they will be much less than that. Priced a new 824 loaded out with guidance, front PTO/3PT, Profi plus etc. etc for around 220k.

Maybe you'll buy a lucky lottery ticket? Maybe you could sell your snow plowing business to pay for the tractor you want to buy for the business? Makes sense if you don't think about it haha.

I don't like Deere at all, but thats just me. The main reason is our service around here and peoples egos that own them. They're so oblivious to the world, can't see past the green paint. Oh well. I like to pick on them, but in the end Deere is a happy medium that generally is not the best or worst choice.


----------



## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

I buy deere for parts availability.. if they don't have the part at the dealer they will have it the next day, can't say that about fendt around here.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ya Deere these days is a happy medium. A known quantity. Fact. Maint. Manuals are good. Parts are available etc. I seriously Priced out the 720 via the online buy function. Scared me silly. Reality may be a little different and if you factored in free service and function, Ya, I'd own one if I hit the lottery. 

Black Irish, I do need financing. That price is not bad though...No farm equip loans around here that I know of. The guy who can least afford it pays the most. At least that's what it seems like at times. And.. I've never seen one. I wonder what the import fees would be for a used from your neck of the woods. Maybe you would be willing to drive it across the border for me. Registering it could be an issue...


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

rob_cook2001;1501590 said:


> I buy deere for parts availability.. if they don't have the part at the dealer they will have it the next day, can't say that about fendt around here.


i dont know of any brand that cannot have 98-99% of their parts in less than 24hrs. Every major OEM has thr network in place to do it the difference is which one stocks it at the store and then who can get it fastest.

One of the main reasons we left Deere was their parts and service. We had a new forage harvester from them and most of the parts we ever needed were "we can have then tomorrow". Even parts that they sold 20-30 of the year before they didnt stock. A forage harvester is a little different situation though. Every minute that thing is down is an extra minute 6-8 guys stand around, hay gets drier and rain gets closer. Tomorrow isnt good enough. We started just robbing our own parts off the machines on the lot just to keep going. One day I drove 7 hrs to one of their parts hubs to pick up an overweight part that was going to take too long to ship.

We switched to Claas and never looked back. As with most thing's, The German's and many other European countries for that matter, have their stuff together when it comes to manufacturing , innovation, testing and support. The dealer has nearly every part in stock. if they dont have it they have a loaner.

different strokes for different folk's. Like i said, across the board deere is a happy medium. nothing spectacular or terrible.

deereguy:

the build a quote for fendt is just that. Those numbers are MSRP which is much higher than ehat you pay. For example a 930 that builds out at $380,000 on there will cost you around $250,000 ish.


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

DeereGuy;1501087 said:


> Ya, getting that picture.. But you've never seen me plow
> 
> Guess I've been watching too many JDeere advertising videos. The ones filmed in Germany with the tractor pulling a wagon of hay down a pristine hedgerow road all the while with the 2012 Olympic feel good song playing in the background...
> 
> I do tend to plow fast but I'm thinking road travel.. and the logistics of time with my accounts. I have 8 miles end to end between my accounts. What do you think is a realistic speed with this tractor with a 9-15 HLA plow (2000lbs) off the front and probably loaded rears and a snowblower on rear. Please say at least 20 mph. If not I may have to rethink. This is one major make or break spec for me. I can do my condos on one end pick up salt and open up my biggest lot 2 mi down and then drive to my parked tractor where my 4 comm lots are. I will have to drive the 8 miles to the condos during large storms though and back to my commerc. lots again.


Yes you can run your tractor from place to place at full speed. We do it all the time, the Kubota max road spead ia just over 18MPH, their new X series road spead is 25MPH.
My New Hollands and JD s also have the 25 MPH spead. You just want to make sure you know where all the bumbs or dips are.


----------



## nsmilligan (Dec 21, 1999)

My Case with a horst 12-18, normand snowblower on back full speed on the road 40 KPH (25MPH), I do have a suspended front axle which is awesome you don't need to worry about dips and bumps! I just ordered a new 130 CVT with Nokian snow tires, suspended axle, electrically heated front and rear windows, mirrors and seat, 4 rear remotes, and 50KPH transmission (30MPH) Once you work a CVT transmission you'll never go back to power shift, especially with a blower.

Bill


----------



## nsmilligan (Dec 21, 1999)

My Case with a horst 12-18, normand snowblower on back full speed on the road 40 KPH (25MPH), I do have a suspended front axle which is awesome. I just ordered a new 130 CVT with Nokian snow tires, suspended axle, electrically heated front and rear windows, mirrors and seat, 4 rear remotes, and 50KPH transmission (30MPH) Once you work a CVT transmission you'll never go back to power shift, especially with a blower.

Bill

PS deereguy, don't load the rear tires, add wheel weights, they provide the extra traction with the plow on front, loaded tires are a pita if your travel at full speed on the road, plus even more of a pita if you do put a hole in a tire. If you still think you have to load them, use windshield washer fluid,cheaper then calcium, and no problems with rust etc on the rims


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

nsmilligan;1501864 said:


> My Case with a horst 12-18, normand snowblower on back full speed on the road 40 KPH (25MPH), I do have a suspended front axle which is awesome. I just ordered a new 130 CVT with Nokian snow tires, suspended axle, electrically heated front and rear windows, mirrors and seat, 4 rear remotes, and 50KPH transmission (30MPH) Once you work a CVT transmission you'll never go back to power shift, especially with a blower.
> 
> Bill
> 
> PS deereguy, don't load the rear tires, add wheel weights, they provide the extra traction with the plow on front, loaded tires are a pita if your travel at full speed on the road, plus even more of a pita if you do put a hole in a tire. If you still think you have to load them, use windshield washer fluid,cheaper then calcium, and no problems with rust etc on the rims


x2. Never put fluid in anything that goes over 25mph. The reason being, the fluid will begin to slosh over the rim and essentially will start to spin due to centrifugal force. If you could go fast enough the fluid could balance your tires for you, but the problem is you sit at 30mph and it will start wheel hopping worse than you could ever imagine.

Cheap windshield washer fluid works. We put it in most of the smaller tires, but it is much less dense than calcium.

Fluid has become a thing of the past. Wheel weights have taken over.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

All good to know. Both dealers have quoted the beet juice stuff. 800-1000 bucks was the expense given. While wheel weights are prob a little more that is something to think about. 

Well my local JD dealer owner I met with toda. He hates inverted blowers and anything horst snow-wing-esqu go figure. too many moving parts. Well he also does large lots but he can have a unit on every lot he has with a 14 ft pusher. That is not me. And.. True New Englanders are a tough crowd no matter. Lets get that off the shelf right away. Don't except change well no matter how right it may be. I'm not talking about the implants. Talking about the Yankee families who have family buried in the local cemeteries revolutionary war period. Anyway...(me included I guess) Rambling

Time is short. Snows coming. about to sign a Feb 1st to may, 3 yr retainer for the biggest lot on my schedule 1.5 acre and I don't have a machine yet. We do have a working relationship as I spread all their salt now. Why half year? The guy doing the lot also does the outdoor fields so he will be very busy clearing fields for the weekly eastern seaboard tournaments on the four fields starting march 1. That folks is half, at least, of my yearly payment on 100K worth of stuff. ya, Im sweating now. I need to wrap it up, be efficient and concentrate on my work plan.

nsmilligan, cvt that's, NH right. Can you elaborate on the Horst. Any issues, breakdowns or opinions you might share with me. I'm all ears having had not less than 3 guys tell me I'm wasting my money. 2 Salesman and a real guy who runs lots of tractors on big snow jobs. They all run big jobs though. Not me. Most of my stuff is 1/2 acre obstacle ridden stripmall type stuff. 130cvt not sure what that is 130hp cvt trans. what size 6t or what size would correspond to a big 5 series m deere. I am pricing out the 32/16 power revers plus which can shift up down 20% in a button elec shift. Not the same as cvt which is more like true hydro I am guessing, operation wise. Now I'm confused. Will go on the NH site and try to make sense of it.


----------



## nsmilligan (Dec 21, 1999)

The 130 cvt is a 6 cyl 130 hp, I guess about the same as a JD 6 series. The CVT is called IVT by JD.Infinitely Varible Transmission, You never have to shift from 0- top speed, there is never a speed like on the power shift transmission like 12th is a little too slow and 13th is a little too fast, and 12th is the top of c range and 13th is the bottom of d range.
Plus the tractor picks the ideal engine speed to match the ground speed, under any given engine load. i.e. my tractor only runs 1460 rpm at 25 mph on the highway, BIG fuel savings, and pushing a load the tractor WILL NOT stall.
As far as the Horst, your dealer sounds like he's got his head in the sand, and doesn't like change. I run 3 Horst 4200 series plows a 9, 10, and 12'. They are twice as productive as an equivalent size pusher, I know I run both., and 3-4 times more productive then an angle straight blade, In a 2-4" snowfall I can clear almost 18' of lot in a single pass, with the 12', I can windrow left or right with the high side door closed and clear 15', no spill off the high side. The only thing you have to be careful of, is when plowing with the blade angled and the high side door closed, you MUST keep the high side door pointing straight ahead, or slightly to the outside, DON'T run it all the way closed, if you hit something with it closed all the way you will bend a door.
Also do not run a large blade on a tractor loader, they are not really designed to take a heavy hit to the side, I saw a guy destroy the loader on a 120 hp tractor last winter when it hit a curb with a 10' pusher, didn't even scratch the pusher, but it was just about touching the front wheels when he stopped!:crying: plus a tractor with the Horst undercarriage frame will push a lot more then with it on a loader, because of the way it loads the tractor.

Bill


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Bill, makes perfect sense to me. I am still interested in the Horst. The cvt sounds great self adjusting to road speed and the torque needed, if I get what your are saying. Probably better for the tractor too. I am going to go by my NH/kubota dealer in a bit and see what he can tell me. I realize the serious commercial machine would be the 6 series equiv. or small row crop jobber, I am having trouble wrapping my head around the size for some of the jobs I need to do in close quarters. 

Back to the Horst, I was veered off from going with an off the shelf front 3PH like Laforge for reasons that it may not take the side pressures of a 15' blade. I was on the Kage site late last night and saw they had a front hitch like a Laforge etc. and selling it for the purpose I am using it for. I'm going to call them and see what they feel the capacities are. I would much prefer this type of setup if it allow a loader to be used without pulling the whole thing off. Horst said the unmounting of their front hitch would take hours and therefore you have a dedicated machine for the winter. I really need the loader for potential snow loading work this winter so that is why I am asking if you have any knowledge on that 3PH system please let me know.

Dealer wouldnt sell a kage either because the rep in New England will not give him a price break.Full Msrp so no money to be made. He was trying to sell me a snow-wolf. I still like the idea and versatility of the Horst. I'm thinking 10-16 instead of 9'-15. I run a 9'6" V now. I hope to step up if you know what I mean. I guess no one bugs you here in NH as long as it isnt rush hour or wider than the lane.

Thanks guys.


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

DeereGuy;1502062 said:


> Bill, makes perfect sense to me. I am still interested in the Horst. The cvt sounds great self adjusting to road speed and the torque needed, if I get what your are saying. Probably better for the tractor too. I am going to go by my NH/kubota dealer in a bit and see what he can tell me. I realize the serious commercial machine would be the 6 series equiv. or small row crop jobber, I am having trouble wrapping my head around the size for some of the jobs I need to do in close quarters.
> 
> Back to the Horst, I was veered off from going with an off the shelf front 3PH like Laforge for reasons that it may not take the side pressures of a 15' blade. I was on the Kage site late last night and saw they had a front hitch like a Laforge etc. and selling it for the purpose I am using it for. I'm going to call them and see what they feel the capacities are. I would much prefer this type of setup if it allow a loader to be used without pulling the whole thing off. Horst said the unmounting of their front hitch would take hours and therefore you have a dedicated machine for the winter. I really need the loader for potential snow loading work this winter so that is why I am asking if you have any knowledge on that 3PH system please let me know.
> 
> ...


Yes, simply put the CVT is a stepless automatic transmission. The Deere transmission has 3 clutchpacks to shift through IIRC and the one I drove was very noticeable, newer ones may be better. The CNH one has 6 to shift through and they aren't very noticeable. For most work you can't tell but sometimes when your right where it want's to shift it gets a little sluggish/confused. Reliability is the concern with both of these transmissions. Shifting unloads and reloads the gear train, this requires larger gears and supporting parts. The clutchpaks are also a wear item and can contaminate the rest of the transmission as well as generate excess heat. If you see one of them out of a tractor it takes up quite a bit of real estate. The CNH transmission also has to work to sit in nuetral, burning extra fuel and creating extra heat and wear. This is why they default to park after a period of time. IIRC both OEM's run the auxillaries and transmission together meaning more chances for contamination risk. Repairs to these transmissions are lengthy, there is no 1 day turnaround and they are expensive to fix.

The CVT that is in the Fendt/Agco/Massey/Challenger tractors was the first one and holds the patent still which is what prevented the other OEMs from just implementing that technology. It uses no clutchpaks at all, just a planetary, and variable displacement pumps. 60 feet per hour-33mph forward, 0-24mph in reverse.They do have two ranges but they are a hard gear range shift that you pre-select before the task. You do not need to ever change ranges otherwise, but if you will be working the tractor hard in the 0-18mph range you would select that range, if youll be roading the tractor you would select the 0-33mph range. Running the tractor under large low speed loads for extended periods of time in high range will put added stress on the transmissions bearings and can lead to premature failure. The transmission hydraulics are seperate from the auxillaries which reduces risk of contamination based failures. Nuetral is a true nuetral on these transmissions but the position of the pumps does not allow the tractor to roll. They also do have the limp home feature I mentioned above. The price of a replacement transmission should you ever need one will be much less than the other brands. You can stack 2 or 3 of the Fendt CVT's inside the CNH one.

In the end, all should serve your purposes. From an operation standpoint all of them have a way to adjust the operation to your needs. Deere and CNH have a familiar hydro like control where the further you push the stick the faster you go. Fendt/Agco/MF/Challenger use a spring loaded variable pivot stick. Hold it forward to speed up, hold it back to slow down. If you let go of it at any speed that is the speed it will hold the transmission at. For many people it takes some getting used to. They put a clutch pedal in there for the "oh sh!t" moments but otherwise it is not needed and is only used as a safety switch for starting the tractor. Operating in foot pedal mode with DTM on will be the easiest for plowing. Then it drives just like a car. You can set the decelleration rate as well to the point where you will virtually never need the brakes. I think the CNH and Deere ones may have this but I cannot remember.

None of these transmissions should be considered an automatic or a hydro. Hydros rely on hydrostatic power only to propel the tractor, all of the CVTs rely on a mix of mechanical and hydraulic power. Automatic transmissions rely on hydraulic power through a torque converter which none of these transmissions use either. That is why they are so fuel efficient.

The CVT is the future, Fendt's patent should run out before too long and hopefully allow the other OEM's to ditch the clutches.

We have both the Fendt CVT's and one CNH one at our farm. Operation wise both have their ups and down. I figure I'm just biased to the Fendt one I guess. You can argue them back and forth all day. The data just isn't out there yet for the CNH reliability and getting failure rates out of Deere is like asking a politician to tell a straight story for an entire week.

Good luck, I think any of them will work well. You'll love the CVT.


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

Not to try and glue you to youtube anymore than it sounds you have been but here are some videos showing the operation of each OEMs transmission.

First the Fendt one






Not so much on the CVT in this one, but shows some of the features of the Fendt.






then Deere's IVT






Parts cutaway.






And finally Case IH's monstrosity


----------



## nsmilligan (Dec 21, 1999)

I run the 4200, 9-15 snowwing on my Puma 145 CVT, with a 765 loader and it handles it fine.
Here's pic from late last winter. I like the live 3rd function on the Puma, it's much easier to use with the snowwing then the 3rd function on the maxxum it replaced.
It takes a bit more operator experience with the loader, the operator has to keep the blade level, and really has to pay attention. If you run it with the blade tipped too far forward, it will wear out the front of the edges in the wings way too quickly.

Bill


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Sorry for not getting back. I enjoyed the videos and explanation. Foreign concept but very cool. I like the idea of true variable speed. 

It seems the smallest CVT is 140HP or so among the major 3. Case may have the smallest. Massey was 170 I think and not sure on NH. I never did get over to NH today which was the plan. 

Spent all morning with Deere dealer. Brutal is all I can say. They want $2100. for an extra remote in the rear. Standard is two unless factory ordered with three and they have a unit on the ground that works for me except for that. Have three quotes three dealers, all written different even though same specs were given. Very confusing how first quotes could have $20k difference. We haven't even started negotiating. 

Everyone is quoting different tires which is weird. They only have a couple options from Deere. The local one quotes Mich radials but the tires on the unit in the yard are globespec or something. A bit disgusted at the moment.

15.5R38 125A8 R1 Radial vs 420/85 R34 R1W Radial - No idea... 38's larger Dia I guess. Have to out and buy some now.

I did get a verbal an my 3 yr retainer job today so that seals it. I will be making a purchase soon. 

Oh I also saw two Normand inverted units at deere today. Hey Paul, that was quick. 

Pretty simple and stout. I am wondering what happens if you run something over. I saw a bolt on the schematic which I assume is a shear pin. I thought there might be a clutch pack involved but go/ no go works. Which brings me to the next thing. 

The Kubota 42HP unit with the front blower my friend uses to do the outdoor turf fields in winter burnt through the PTO wet clutch. Like in under 250 hrs. They are not sure what happened to allow that but kiss $5k goodbye on that one. They just got the bill. It is hydro. I believe so not sure how that happened. They had it in for service and the shear pin was replaced. They think the Pin was replaced with somthing hard and that contributed. Doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

For the price I would strongly consider a deer 6115d-6140d.. more of a basic tractor but still have shuttle f/r.115-140 HP.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Well Rob you very well could be right. I don't have enough experience to guage what is the best tractor setup is for my use unfortunately. I do have some narrow entrances/exits but comparing 6140 next to 5115, not so much apparent difference size wise. I realize wts may say something different. I'm sticking with the 5115M unless I really see somthing better at the NH dealer tomorrow. Time is not on my side.


----------



## snoboss (Oct 19, 2012)

I rent 2 280 hp New Hollands with a 10 foot box scrapers. They are in my opinion to big until the last storm in february when we got bombed with 2 feet of the worst rained on white concrete bubble gum crap that I have seen in thirty years of plowing! I spent 3 days in my carhartts slept in my truck 1 hour each day. Those tractors made the difference!!


\


----------



## nsmilligan (Dec 21, 1999)

The Number 1 mistake and sometimes most costly with blowers is replaceing the shear pin with a harder bolt. Operators do this because they don't want to bother getting out to replace the bolt. My Normands have shear bolt protection on the auger drive, and on the main PTO shaft. If the specs call for a grade 2 bolt then never replace it with a grade 5, or grade 8. I know operators who have and ended up like the Tractor in the pervious post or a broken gearbox on the blower. In my blower tractors I have a rubber maid small plastic box with shrear bolts and wrenchs.

2 remotes at the rear will work for a blower, but if your going with a horst undercarriage mount you'll need 3, and ideally 4. You can also add an electric valve to the top of the remotes to provide 2 more remotes for less then a $1000, but you can only use 1 at a time.
If your going with the loader then you need the mid mount valve and joystick, and a 3rd function on the loader and the Horst electric valve on the blade.

Bill


----------



## nsmilligan (Dec 21, 1999)

DeereGuy, when you start negotating talk to the dealer about a rental. Most ag dealers here have a couple of nearly new units or lease returns,they use as loaner tractors or that they rent out in the winter.
Also Case has a snow tractor rental program here, so I assume since they're the same company as NH that NH may have it too. It may be a Canadian program, but ask the NH dealer about it. It works like this Case provides the tractor to the dealer, you rent it , and the rate depends on the # of hours you might use, and if you buy the tractor at the end of the season, rental payments go towards the purchase price, also there is a discount to the dealer for tractors that go through the program, so regardless the tractor is available at a discounted price.
This may be a good way to decide on a tractor that best suits your needs, because if you find it doesn't work, you just return it.

I'm sure if JD wants your business they can find a way to be competitive.

Bill


----------



## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

DeereGuy;1502834 said:


> Well Rob you very well could be right. I don't have enough experience to guage what is the best tractor setup is for my use unfortunately. I do have some narrow entrances/exits but comparing 6140 next to 5115, not so much apparent difference size wise. I realize wts may say something different. I'm sticking with the 5115M unless I really see somthing better at the NH dealer tomorrow. Time is not on my side.


I run a 7740 ford with 11ft front and a 10ft rear
7740 is a tight turning tractor at 90hp I never ran out of power
Do have 3 NH with loaders 110hp+ keep at the farm unless we get deep snow need loaders

Truck vs a tractor 
Tractor nice push lot of snow but I rather be in my truck Its a lot faster to point A to point B


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I can empathize with the 2ft of snow then 2" of rain part. Pretty common out here on the coast. snow won't compact and is a bear on truck mounted equipment. Broke my front dif frame mount off the frame 2 winters ago. Not optimal.

Lets face it, trucks are not made to push. Over time they are getting better but the steering system on my GM is pitiful. Time for another steering pump on that thing too.

Bill, the rent to buy seems like a good deal. I initially asked about rentals at one of the Deere places when I started all this. No interest from them is all I can say. Case/NH may be different. I think one issue is that with the enonomy and the fact that farming out here is almost a thing of the past, no inventory on site almost anywhere. Only Dealers that have inventory use it themselves in winter.

Remotes. So if I do set up a rear horst with a 9-15 and rear blower with a back blade I will need 2 mid with third funct.- so 3 mid. In the rear I'm pulling teeth just to have 3. They want to charge me parts 2K plus 4 hrs @ 90. for the additional 1 remote. The bank of 3 are the stock detent blocks. I would then have to run a splitter somewhere. I assume I will have to purchase an elect part kit from Horst to do that. No one has included that price. I will call HLA on monday to clear up exactly what I need so there is no mistake. Looking at the vid on Horst frame mount it looks like the pusher has some good height on the lift. I'm confused how the 9-15 mounts though. Is it a skid mount. Global carrier mount is all I can get on an H310 NSL according to the dealer I am working most closely with. That is what is on the tractor now so I am a little skeptical. They don't seem to want to reconfigure anything on it.

The shear bolt is simple, hopefully effective, to protect the driveline. It may be a pain in conditions where 2" of frozen ice is on top of the snowfall but maybe not. We do get the rain after snow and then single digits within hours which just reaks havoc. Happens 1 or 2 times a year. Blower is inverted so I will have to drive over it before picking it up I suppose. That sould break it up a bit. Auger does not have teeth.

I am juggling 3 deere dealers at the moment and will visit NH but It may come down to time and who can provide the setup the quickest at this late point in time. Let you all know what happens.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Anyone have any clue as to Deere 0% financing going forward. Was 5 yrs now 3 after the 25th I assume it will either be held over or go away. I guess that is really the incentive for me to figure this out soon. I do think NH is probably a little more aggressive or competitive with the financing. My Deere dealer started quoting 8% for non deere make add ons. I had to cringe.


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

DeereGuy;1502653 said:


> Sorry for not getting back. I enjoyed the videos and explanation. Foreign concept but very cool. I like the idea of true variable speed.
> 
> It seems the smallest CVT is 140HP or so among the major 3. Case may have the smallest. Massey was 170 I think and not sure on NH. I never did get over to NH today which was the plan.
> 
> ...


ttractor tires can be confusing and give salesman the edge sometimes.

brand does matter. if they quite you a Michelin and you get some cheap of brand you could be lolosing a couple grand easily.

Michelin will cost the most firestone will be a close second followed by the rest which I stay away from. for cheap tires. BKT s have worked we'll for us for tractors that just need traction not wear comfort or anything else.

the reason all of the tires are different on stock machines is because the OEM puts on the best deal at the time. if you want a matched set of Michelin you Have to special order it sometimes. otherwise they just send out what's cheap that day. usually still brand name radials though.

the 125 is the load rating. the a8 is the speed rating. these are international standards.

R1 and R1W are the tread depth. R1 is standard. R1W is deep tread

15.5r38 is a standard profile radial tire. standard profile is typically around 80%. (15.5x0.80)2+38=62.8.

420/85r34 is the way new tires are finally being numbered for the most part.

(420x0.85)2/25.4+34=62.11

keep in mind those numbers are not the true rolling diameter though. that number the OEM will have.

good luck.


----------



## StuveCorp (Dec 20, 2005)

Durallymax, I would like to see more on the smaller(more like 100hp) CVT tractors. I looked but didn't see anything for Fendt?


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

StuveCorp;1503954 said:


> Durallymax, I would like to see more on the smaller(more like 100hp) CVT tractors. I looked but didn't see anything for Fendt?


they don't have anything smaller than the 700 series In the us anymore for now. there are some used 400 series and smaller older 700 series floating around which are all in the 70-150hp range. hopefully they'll bring some smaller ones back but they really didnt sell well. When you get down to 100hp or less the benefits of the fendt don't pencil out as well. Those tractors don't see as much use or need the features of the fendt. Plus everybody else's prices are much lower.

fendt numbering is simple. the ffirst number is the series the second two numbers are the size. add a 0 to the end of these two numbers then subtract 20 and you'll have the rated pto hp. so a 409 has 70hp. a 712 has 100 hp. a 939 has 370hp.

the 400 series I used for awhile was pretty handy. they have all the features of the older bigger ones and the same cab. just smaller engine and frame. I don't mind the old style cabs. they're cozy and ergonomic. the new x5 cabs are just bigger and easier to get in and out of. more space for all of the added equipment needed for precision farming and long days.

interesting fact. some of the new Holland keys are the same as the older fendt keys. Won't work on the new ones though. Each one of them has a microchip specific to that tractor. IIRC a replacement costs $400-500. Nobody's going to steal it at least though haha.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I also did a search StuveCorp for small cvt's or ivt's recently, but not to be found in a small frame. I was looking at Massey specifically as the dyna vt I thought was fendt-like. 7000 series was the smallest and the expense more than I could justify given the job.

Thanks for the tire info durallymax.


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

the cvt transmission in the Massey Ferguson s challengers, agco tractors jcb s and valtra are all one in the same. powermaxx cvt dyna vt. etc. all the same. all are the fendt CVT. if you pull the rear tires off you'll see FENDT cast into the side of the case staring at you. with the exception of JCB all of the above brands are owned by Agco as is Fendt. JCB is a private family run company that builds equipment using proven components and new ideas. They buy transmissions from Fendt and are currently the only outside buyer. 


As for the smaller CVT s. I think it comes down to the market again. people aren't willing to pay for it. in CNH s case it doesn't lookalike they ccould build one small enough. Maybe that's Deeres issue too. 

Once you start getting low on hp, hydrostatic transmission s start looking better. 

the issue is you want a tractor in the gap between the hydro and the CVT. it's tough. see if somebody will do a snow lease.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Not familiar with the Challenger name. Never seen an Agco branded tractor either. Massey's are avail. Never seen a Valtra. If a 6000deere size 130hp or less Massey cvt was available for rent or lease to buy, I would look at the numbers. It would probably take, a summer hours intensive use, to justify the cost though. Just on the Massey web build numbers, I would say there is no savings. Actual price paid with deductions may make it so. Everyone says Deere is the most costly out of the blue,orange, orange and green. I'm not convinced.

I spoke with Jason at Metal Pless at length over his AgriMaxx line of front blades with hydraulic wings. My first impression, after looking at all the vids I could find, and having Jason talk me through the Metal Pless offerings at length was, Wow!

I've been looking for a pusher frame mount for use on the tractor that could be used with a front loader for stacking operations or trucking snow. The AgriMaxx line frame mount does allow that. I think it sticks down a bit further than some other units. The front lift unpins and comes off allowing room for the loader to operate. Cool. If you decide to sell it, the frame is adaptable to most tractors. If you upgrade your tractor and change brands no problem I guess. This may be the same for other makers as well. 

I admit, I have not ever seen an HLA snow wing, which is known as a well proven tool, or the Metal Pless unit in person. I'm going only by impressions from photo's and videos. I have spoken to technical reps from both companies. I don't think I can lose either way. I do like the option to use my front loader during the winter without the huge hassle of removing the whole frame on the HLA. HLA has a bit better ability to stack as it just lifts higher. If the frame mounts are wanted, like in my situation, the price is very close. So that should not really impact the decision. I don't want to go off the loader arms and have to worry about the forces put on the loader. I'm not talking about abuse here just hard work.

The fact that I am going to be a one tractor business, ( can't include my small open deere 1070 40hp) sort of put my back to the wall with wanting as many potential solutions gained with the one machine. I also liked the soft trip option on the M. Pless unit along with the joystick option so only only one set of remotes is needed. HLA probably has a similar elect diverter valve block/ joystick too. I didn't get that far with my build.

Any imput or real life comparisons out there please chime in. I'm pretty sure what I am going with now. Still happy to hear what you think. Especially those with experience with both units. Mine will be a 9-15 with 36" blade ht. Weight is closely the same at around 2000lbs. I will order an optional Hydraulic dampener for the road travel I do. I will order the optional soft trip and the optional joystick configuration for ease of use. 4 remotes are needed with out the elect. option so the joystick seems like a good decision.


----------



## StuveCorp (Dec 20, 2005)

I'll have to look at those other tractors. I want a tractor that would be like plowing in an end loader, you don't have to shift/clutch. I know I'm going to get yelled at for that...

For mid size lots that 120 hp size tractor with a HLA 9-15(or similar) and an inverted blower on the back would be really sweet.


----------



## 4wydnr (Feb 3, 2008)

DeereGuy;1502653 said:


> Spent all morning with Deere dealer. Brutal is all I can say. They want $2100. for an extra remote in the rear. Standard is two unless factory ordered with three and they have a unit on the ground that works for me except for that. Have three quotes three dealers, all written different even though same specs were given. Very confusing how first quotes could have $20k difference. We haven't even started negotiating.
> 
> .


We have a few applications that require more remotes than our tractors have. On the farm we have had great success with Fasse valves. They are electronic controlled expanders. The are pricey but less so than what you were quoted. We have one that has been in use for 10 years on our planting and spraying tractor which sees a lot of hours.

Just trying to help with options.


----------



## durallymax (Nov 2, 2011)

Deereguy you gotta quit looking at the build and quote numbers. They are nowhere near what the prices are. Its not like building a car only. The tractor prices are way off.

Massey is the main tractor and has been since Agco aquired them. Then they painted whites and Agco's to match but left them all the same tractor. In 2002 they bought out challenger from CAT when CAT wanted to exit ag. The challenger was simply the track tractors. Agco expanded on that by painting some of the massey products yellow and selling them that way. Later on they started changing the hoods, roofs and interiors slightly to match their big brothers more.

The guts and such have always been the same between all 4 colors (Silver, Orange, Yellow, Red). Orange Agco tractors were discontinued in 2010. The hesston name was also dropped from haying equipment as was new idea in an effort to streamline. White was dropped back in the early 2000s.

Every Challenger product is a Massey product with different styling. much like chevy and GMC.

No matter which one you choose its all the same.

StuveCorp ,CVT is a lot more responsive and efficient than a torque converter controlled wheel loader. The CVT can always keep the engine in its prime. It also doesn't have the inefficiencies of the torque converter. Furthermore it is more instantaneous. It doesn't get confused. if you set it to max response you will leave the tractor with whiplash by lunch time. They haul ass.

http://www.fendt.com/int/tractors_fendt819-828vario_multimedia_reversingdriverstation.asp


----------



## nsmilligan (Dec 21, 1999)

Just ordered another tractor, Case 130 CVT with the Nokian snow tires shown in the above post. I understand they outwear any ag tires on pavement, way better snow traction, and are a excellent choice in the hay fields.

Bill


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I like that whole unit pictured above, tires included. 

Ya durallymax, been looking at to many numbers online lately.. Sort of hashed out a deal with local Deere dealer. Dont feel great. Spent too much while not getting everything I wanted. I did get some good snow add ons which should prove to make me money; the blade from Metal Pless and a 92" inverted Normand blower. 

I was not in control of the purchase of the tractor. Anything not included in the build sitting on the dealers lot, I paid through the nose for. Not funny. Anyway, I had settled on what I wanted, I put specs out to bid and 2 dealers pulled away after giving me quotes as deere delivery would not be til Dec at least. No matching units available in anyone's lot. I can't believe they dealt with me for two weeks figuring out wants and needs/ prices and just hours before first dealer negotiation they pull out. Extremely frustrating. 

I was so preoccupied trying to keep things in check that I forgot to add front fenders. The tractor is pretty maxed out for what it is but. Unhappy with the whole process really. I recall feeling the same way after buying my first new truck almost 30 years ago. I did have the ability to walk. Yup. It was't that or the fact that i was not treated well. Not at all. More like one of the dealers who pulled out gave me some incentive to go with him which amounted to around $6 or 7K and I had to pay that and more while getting less. No single lever release for front remotes and no front fenders. Other dealer added one year to the warrantee and limit of 500 bucks for each snow unit setup. 

Durallymax, of course there's room in the numbers for quite a bit of back and forth. With deere it can be like pulling teeth depending on who you deal with. The key is to have some info on what that margin is or have competitors bid against each other in an ideal world. Again time is not my friend. Winter will be here. I did entertain a lease to buy arrangement. I simply didn't have the ability to determine the best way to go or the time to check on it. Yes, payments would be less but then it would have to be refinanced in three yrs. or turn it in. I wont have too many hrs on the machine so it will still be worth a lot. Machine equity is not a bad thing.

I did get the unit I wanted 5115M with deluxe cab air seat and 3 mid and 3 rear remotes, Michelin radials, H310, loader, deere bucket, extra work lights, 32/16 power reverser plus tranny, elect draft controls, Metal Pless 9-15 blade with soft trip and frame mount, joystick control, rear 92" inverted Normand blower unit. $110k or $20k/yr for 6 yrs. A big pill.

Hey the upside is- The way the Fed is printing dollars, I won't owe much in 3 or 4 yrs anyway given inflation. I'm counting on that. If the dollar is not the world standard going forward than I'm screwed anyway.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

4wydnr, thanks for that info. 

I have cut down the remotes needed by going to an elect diverter bank of valves on the pusher for the front anyway but wanted the mid 3ird for a potential grapple function in the future. The rear needs three but not sure now on the details of the implement hookups. I may however need to use a rear for the blade and use the third mid for the chute rotation controlled off the button on the scv stick. Cost to me to add one more in rear is $2200 plus time to remove two way and put on the 3 bank. Now this is an $1100. option from factory. Prices were discounted some but no where near to offset what was charged for some of the changes additions. I may have gotten a fair deal. I just think I could have done better in a different month. Which is weird since everyone at the dealership customer wise told me today was the best time to buy.


----------



## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Deere guy,

What type of work will you be doing with this new machine? WIth 20K a year plus insurance, fuel, maintenance, etc. How much revenue will this unit produce in a year?


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Blowerman, I don't know the answer to that as it puts me into a category of potential jobs that I couldn't bid on prior. For this year, I have covered myself by taking on 25K in additional work. Some of that is salt so approximated for an avg year. For me, more plowing means more salt and more money naturally, I basically have covered myself. I may in fact just make what I would have with out the unit. I may have time to throw another lot in if it comes my way. It does open up the between storm work loading trucks with snow or moving piles etc if we don't have a mid season melt. Somthing not doable with my small machine. So some potential there for additional income. Next year after I have some experience I can bid on jobs that potentially could be more lucrative. My biggest lot is going to double next year as they have a building project going on. This is the 3 yr retainer lot. So if I want to be able to do it next year I would have had to do something about that before then. I am acting now since that business is willing to make the agreement. I feel like it's a stepping stone to the next level so I am pretty positive about it. The blower puts me into another catagory too. The payment seems daunting but on paper it works. I know that some would buy a used cheaper less outfitted machine. I get that. For a machine that I will run it does have a lot of bells and whistles. I have to work on a summer plan next.

Residential work is not currently destined for this machine but I do want to test the waters in the future after I gain some experience with the blower. If it works out that I can buy or lease another unit next year to do the resi blower thing that so would be a longer term goal. This year is all Commercial.


----------



## Plow horse (Oct 18, 2009)

*At least you went green*

Congrads on going green. Besides is it true that those really nice looking very very expensive Fendts tractors are much more short coupled than JD and buck a lot more??

The Fasse extra valves are great been using mine for 4 years or so.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I'm going to take a break for a bit on this thread. I will probably start another thread in a week or so as my Tractor is getting outfitted with the snow related implements. 

I have triple mids and rears. The blower takes one for the chute rotation, one for chute throw elevation and one for rear scraper blade. Front blade which is a Metal Plessis Agrimax 9-15 , takes just one oil hookup as I invested in the joystick with elect. diverters. Normally it would need 4 oil hookups or remotes. I did not have 4. I could have split one but then I would have had to work the scv stick and a separate toggle switch somewhere. I opted for the joystick. I hope to take some photos in process but time will tell what I catch with my phone camera. Thanks

-Eric


----------



## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

Eric it sounds like you purchased a great tractor! Nice choice on the attachments too! Enjoy


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Thanks IMAGE

Hey, I saw a Fasse add-on valve a couple days ago. Looked like quality.

This is off topic but anyone have an idea of what I could use on the 5115M for breaking ground in a field that has been cut randomly. No brush or anything. Timothy probably, with weeds. Has a thick mat though. Could the 5115M pull a 4 bottom plow? Only 10 acres. I use an old kuhn EL60 tiller on my small tractor for home garden use but it is only 5ft wide or so. I Will post a question on tractorbynet perhaps , after all I do realize this is plow site.

Hurricane Sandy is going to set back my delivery I'm guessing. Time will tell. First thing I'm going to do is run it over to the landfill nearby and use their scales for an accurate weight. Off the top of my head I'm guessing 15,500lbs with the snow related steel on. I did go with Loaded tires. I have no hopes of trailering.


----------



## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

A 3 bottom is all I would run behind it. It might pull a 4 but you will be running it hard.


----------



## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

the old rule of thumb was 15hp per bottom for 16" spacing


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ok, gives me an idea anyway of the range. You guys don't agree. 3 - 6 bottom, I have been reading a little and it seems that there is a style that does not completely turn the soil and uses less HP. So a lot of factors may alter the configuration. I'll keep reading the mfg literature. I'm guessing the first pass will be a lot tougher than any future work. It may be dependent on what I can borrow or beg too. Thanks


----------



## Plow horse (Oct 18, 2009)

*? road speed*

Whats the road speed on jd 5 series?


----------



## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

15hp per bottom??? I make a living farming and see no way a 45hp tractor could pull a 3 bottom plow!! I have a JD 7400(105 pto HP, 120hp motor) and it has a hard time pulling a 4bottom.


----------



## MRHORSEPOWER1 (Dec 10, 2008)

rob_cook2001;1509064 said:


> 15hp per bottom??? I make a living farming and see no way a 45hp tractor could pull a 3 bottom plow!! I have a JD 7400(105 pto HP, 120hp motor) and it has a hard time pulling a 4bottom.


My old 1964 John Deere 4020 pulls john deere 5 bottom plow just fine. It only has 90 hp (motor i think). 15 hp per bottom sounds right to me. My uncle's 1963 Case 930 with hand clutch pulls john deere 4 bottom plow no problem at all.


----------



## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

That's crazy.. I have a JD 4030 (85hp) and it won't pull my 4 bottom at all. My 3bottom works her pretty hard. Out here if you see someone running a 5bottom it is on a 4450 size tractor.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I've been looking at used IH 720 plows 3 and 4; 4 mostly. Pretty expensive and I understand that acres plowed equals worn parts. I have looked at what land plowing/ cultivating makes $ wise, on a per acre basis. I can't make the numbers work. No money in it from what I can tell. A set of decent 4 bottom plows is around $5k and I will need a set of disk Harrows/ cultivators as well.


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Implement size varies greatly due to soil type and terrain, We very seldom plow anymore anyways, so many better choice's.


----------



## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

Dave is 100% right.


----------



## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

rob_cook2001;1509064 said:


> 15hp per bottom??? I make a living farming and see no way a 45hp tractor could pull a 3 bottom plow!! I have a JD 7400(105 pto HP, 120hp motor) and it has a hard time pulling a 4bottom.


I plowed with a MF165 gas and pulled a 3 bottom plow with no problem Its 50hp
I have a 5 bottom plow now use a 7740 ford 4wd rated 90hp plus have 22ft disc I used on same tractor
Butt dont crop no more just hay everything now


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Sandy loam I think, Most lots are around here. Well this one is just a small 10 acre fallow field. Probably shallow topsoil with thick mat potentially with plenty of field stones. Barley is the intended crop after a few cover crops and some amending.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Stopped by the dealership to see how my tractor was doing getting setup etc. Had not moved from the spot it was in when I signed the paperwork a week and a half earlier. My first payment's coming up and I will not even have delivery. Niiiiiiiice.


----------



## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

I pull a 5 bottom with a case 5230, its about 100 horse I think and it pulls it fine. We don't plow much though, only before we plan a new vineyard and we kill the ground first with roundup. I think that makes it alot easier.


----------



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ya not sure what will happen. I won't be investing too much into this as there is limited opportunities here and I don't have my own fields. I probably would not do the roundup thing even though I see it is universally used. It sounds like I could pull a 4 bottom certainly on land that has been worked for a season. Disk rippers also take some HP I see. perhaps more than the plows. The new tillage solutions seem to open deep without soil stratification changes so that is what I am looking at ideally if I could line up some work.


----------

