# the pricing game in snow removal...



## trqjnky

I have never in my life seen such a wide variety of pricing as in snow removal. Everything from per hour to per push to seasonal, I've seen guys charge 70 per hour but the 1.5 or double the hours so they are really charging 125-140 per hour, same with salt, doubling the amount actually applied so they make 120/ton instead of the billed 60/ton. It looks good on paper to the property manager I guess. 

Of course there's the lowballers driving prices down working for free. And then there's guys overcharging clients like crazy, they don't last long before someone gets smart. 

Its amazing the price difference in different ares. Western Iowa tends to be 70-80 per hour. Central Iowa tends to be 65-70 per hour. Just 2 hours difference.


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## trqjnky

Also, I've noticed when bidding, clients that don't pay much attention to snow removal want hourly bids. Whereas educated clients like per push or seasonal bids.


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## grandview

Sounds like a rant starting,what else you got?


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## IMAGE

How about property managers using your bid to get lower bids out of other people? Usually the slimey guys with no commercial INS and guys that don't do all the proper paperwork to be legal and pay taxes, pay guys cash, etc... Gotta love that.


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## trqjnky

I see guys on this forum tell people to figure out what your operating costs are and see what you have to charge.

Now, how in the everliving he'll are you going to convince a property manager to pay you 50-100 dollars an hour more than another guy "because you have more payments and bills"????? Shouldn't the proper way be "find out the rates in your area and build your business accordingly" ??? Don't add 100k worth of equipment if you can't pay for it and the employees to operate it on the current rates. 

I made 15k last year with 2 trucks and below average snowfall. That's not bad cash. How did I make that? Because I keep costs low and can bid competitively! This year im adding a skid loader and 1 more truck. Since my other trucks are now paid for. I can still remain competitive when pricing, and make more money this year because I have more equipment,


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## trqjnky

IMAGE;1301549 said:


> How about property managers using your bid to get lower bids out of other people? Usually the slimey guys with no commercial INS and guys that don't do all the proper paperwork to be legal and pay taxes, pay guys cash, etc... Gotta love that.


YES! Motherfukers! Some turd shows up in a torched 90s chevy half ton with a beat up plow hoping to make enough cash to keep his pay as you go cell phone turned on.....

Now, I have a 74 Chevy I plow with, but its been restored, painted, and in good shape. The age of the vehicle has nothing to do with it, the condition does


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## grandview

This is a good start,anything else?


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## trqjnky

Lol... there's not enough bandwidth


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## wizardsr

My biggest pet peeve is those pricing strictly per sq ft, with no consideration to differences in lot types, islands, snow piling areas, etc, etc, etc.


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## thelettuceman

I go by my gut feeling. I give out 3 prices for the same property. Up to 8". Over 8". Blizzard Conditions as determined by The National Weather Service. You could say that I am adding more confusion to what you have to say and I would agree. There are so many variables that go into the price. 
I am not a low baller. My pricing is up the middle.


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## csi.northcoast

welcome to the world of snow.... unfortunatly it is what it is.....if a property manager wants to hire a moron he is going to ......it really is in every business, lawn, concrete, etc..... if you want a pro you hire a pro .....


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## CGM Inc.

A lot of "senior" plow people quote just by looking at a property and come up with a price for plowing and salt that way. I have been trained that way too but rather take the calculated approach.

Typically I estimate a property at a site visit and come up with a cost based on what I see. Take the information abck to the office, meassure the property to get a calculated price based on hourly rates, etc.


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## grandview

CGM Inc.;1301814 said:


> A lot of "senior" plow people quote just by looking at a property and come up with a price for plowing and salt that way. I have been trained that way too but rather take the calculated approach.
> 
> Typically I estimate a property at a site visit and come up with a cost based on what I see. Take the information abck to the office, meassure the property to get a calculated price based on hourly rates, etc.


I have a built in calculator in my thumb!Thumbs Up


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## TPC Services

trqjnky;1301540 said:


> Also, I've noticed when bidding, clients that don't pay much attention to snow removal want hourly bids. Whereas educated clients like per push or seasonal bids.


Most the clients that want it by the Hour are PM's an they don't care, it all gets passed back on to their occupants leasing their spaces. Where property owners want a budgeted idea what it will take to get there lots cleared, because they are the one paying the bill!

My feeling an it's just my feeling an I will be getting bashed on this, Is The per hr an the per bag or ton pricing is a joke. it's too easy for some clown that has no experience in snow removal to give someone a price on their property. Where a per push, monthly or seasonal with caps takes a more precise idea an a more experienced person to figure out just what the heck its going to take to get the job done right.
I have a friend at one of the larger parking lot maintenance company here in town an and they are a 90% per hr, per bag, ton price kind of company. I really don't think they know how long some of their properties take. I have sent extra help his way from time to time an have seen a 2" storm take 2hrs to push an than the next time take 3.5hrs now you tell me how that PM looks at that those bills an don't ask why in the hell did it take longer the next time you pushed this? They don't most of the time. An he tries to push this per push price down my throat an I just laugh at him an get no answer from him when I ask him how long it takes to push a curtain lot he pushs (LOL)

Now let the bashing begin!!


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## NickT

We had one no good mf'ing PM that asked us to bail them out when this apt complex had 6" of driven over snow in a huge cut up lot. The original plow guys truck broke down so we gave them an hourly price did the work, didn't pad any hours on top of what we did, and had to listen to this pinhead tell us we took to long then paid us less then what we billed for. Never again will I do a job like that without a written contract. Wouldn't mind pushing a giant pile of snow to block those entrances .....ooops did I say that out loud!!!!


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## Longae29

TPC Services;1302600 said:


> Most the clients that want it by the Hour are PM's and they don't care, it all gets passed back on to their occupants leasing their spaces. Where property owners want a budgeted idea what it will take to get there lots cleared, because they are the one paying the bill!
> 
> My feeling and it's just my feeling and I will be getting bashed on this, Is The per hr and the per bag or ton pricing is a joke. it's too easy for some clown that has no experience in snow removal to give someone a price on their property. Where a per push, monthly or seasonal with caps takes a more precise idea and a more experienced person to figure out just what the heck its going to take to get the job done right.
> I have a friend at one of the larger parking lot maintenance company here in town and and they are a 90% per hr, per bag, ton price kind of company. I really don't think they know how long some of their properties take. I have sent extra help his way from time to time and have seen a 2" storm take 2hrs to push and than the next time take 3.5hrs now you tell me how that PM looks at that those bills and don't ask why in the hell did it take longer the next time you pushed this? They don't most of the time. And he tries to push this per push price down my throat and I just laugh at him and get no answer from him when I ask him how long it takes to push a curtain lot he pushs (LOL)
> 
> Now let the bashing begin!!


it usually takes me a couple times to read your posts, but I think you are on the $


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## cold_and_tired

I finally got my customers to go away from hourly pricing. A few of them fought me on it by saying "cheaper is cheaper". They couldn't seem to get it through their heads that hourly doesn't help anyone, in fact it HURTS everyone.

When I first started, hourly pricing was my saving grace. I had no clue how to push snow or how long it would take. Now that I kind of have a handle on things, hourly is just stupid.


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## 07PSDCREW

When I first started, hourly pricing was my saving grace. I had no clue how to push snow or how long it would take. * Now that I kind of have a handle on things, hourly is just stupid.*

Would you mind explaing how hourly is "stupid"? just want to see your point....new here.
trying to come up with a way to bill for various drives.....


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## BlackKnight07

There is a lot of Pricing differences. I've looked at different Threads and Forums and Costs are all over. This is my First year so if i'm way off let me know. Currently only planning on Residential Drives.
Standard Drive
3"+-6" 1 Car Drive= $15
2 Car Drive=$25
3 Car Drive=$30
8"+12" 1 Car Drive= $25
2 Car Drive=$35
3 Car Drive=$40
12"+Blizzard 1 Car Drive= $40
2 Car Drive=$60
3 Car Drive=$80

I do live a rual area, Home's with long drive's I'll Check out First. I have talked to a few Guys and there Charging $30 for Normal Drive and the Longer Drive's 1000ft-etc up to $150


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## IMAGE

BlackKnight07;1304198 said:


> There is a lot of Pricing differences. I've looked at different Threads and Forums and Costs are all over. This is my First year so if i'm way off let me know. Currently only planning on Residential Drives.
> Standard Drive
> *3"+-6" 1 Car Drive= $15
> 2 Car Drive=$25
> 3 Car Drive=$30
> 8"+12" 1 Car Drive= $25
> 2 Car Drive=$35
> 3 Car Drive=$40
> 12"+Blizzard 1 Car Drive= $40
> 2 Car Drive=$60
> 3 Car Drive=$80*
> I do live a rual area, Home's with long drive's I'll Check out First. I have talked to a few Guys and there Charging $30 for Normal Drive and the Longer Drive's 1000ft-etc up to $150


 Don't make it so hard.


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## grandview

BlackKnight07;1304198 said:


> There is a lot of Pricing differences. I've looked at different Threads and Forums and Costs are all over. This is my First year so if i'm way off let me know. Currently only planning on Residential Drives.
> Standard Drive
> 3"+-6" 1 Car Drive= $15
> 2 Car Drive=$25
> 3 Car Drive=$30
> 8"+12" 1 Car Drive= $25
> 2 Car Drive=$35
> 3 Car Drive=$40
> 12"+Blizzard 1 Car Drive= $40
> 2 Car Drive=$60
> 3 Car Drive=$80
> 
> I do live a rual area, Home's with long drive's I'll Check out First. I have talked to a few Guys and there Charging $30 for Normal Drive and the Longer Drive's 1000ft-etc up to $150





IMAGE;1304203 said:


> Don't make it so hard.


Dam right. First off you lose money on those high snow amounts and you should ever have that much in the driveway.You min. is to low also.Try and sell them a seasonal contract.


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## NickT

I agree 25 is my minimum for new accounts, people that stop you in a storm that have 6 " of snow in their drive then you can charge more, if you have a bunch of driveways in one neighborhood then u can adjust your pricing, also you should be plowing every 2-3 inches anyway, so a per push price would work as long as long as your customers agree to your terms, but make it easy on yourself, one price that's it.


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## cold_and_tired

07PSDCREW;1304193 said:


> When I first started, hourly pricing was my saving grace. I had no clue how to push snow or how long it would take. * Now that I kind of have a handle on things, hourly is just stupid.*
> 
> Would you mind explaing how hourly is "stupid"? just want to see your point....new here.
> trying to come up with a way to bill for various drives.....


With hourly pricing, everybody loses. If you are charging hourly, there is no incentive to finish the job any faster. In that situation, the customer loses.

It also opens the door for dishonesty when bidding. One guy turns in an honest bid and another comes in at half the price yet bills out twice the number of hours just to make ends meet. With this, the contractors lose.

Hourly pricing is where you will see most of the low ballers. Guys that have no clue what they need to charge to keep their operation running. I knew what I had to charge and how much I had to make to keep the wheels turning but just didn't know how long it would take to clear the snow. In my situation, I didn't have the opportunity to go to work for someone else first in order to learn the ropes.

Guys that come in with a cheap hourly price hurt the industry as a whole. Some of the guys in my area say that prices are cheaper than they were 15 years ago. We are about the only industry that is going backwards.


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## NickT

grandview;1304211 said:


> Dam right. First off you lose money on those high snow amounts and you should ever have that much in the driveway.You min. is to low also.Try and sell them a seasonal contract.


Speaking of seasonal contracts I'm offering them to my residential customers this year I have my price figured out, would like to know what type of clauses do you use i.e. Amount of snowfall,salt? Just looking for ideas thx


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## big450es

now with those prices.... that include sidewalks and salt?


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## BlackKnight07

Per a Push meaning each time u plow the area?

Also have no idea how Seasonal would work around here without screwing myself or the Customer two much, The few people i have talked to have price setting like i stated above with 30 being a Min Charge. Also starting to think i should have one Charge for 1,2,3 Car Garage.


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## NickT

Yes per push is each time you show up to plow, around here 2-4 inches is the norm so you might only have to go back an do a few over considering what time you start,the ones on the end of your route should be a one shot deal. Not sure your neck of the woods it doesn't show up on the mobile version.


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## NickT

I guess its different everywhere considering your location but if I'm only cleaning up an inch of snow, going back to my fist driveway I wouldn't charge them but per push for residential s seems to work for me. Seasonal seems like the way to go because you get your money up front and there's no billing to deal with.


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## BlackKnight07

Around here avg Snow Fall is around 4-6inches, Then usually 5 avg snow falls are over 6inches, usually no more then 3 storms drop more then a Foot, depending on the year.

I would like Seasonally obviously money up front works out better for me, however around here people don't buy into that very well. I know of one Subdivision that would work in the rest highly unlikely.


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## grandview

NickT;1304283 said:


> Speaking of seasonal contracts I'm offering them to my residential customers this year I have my price figured out, would like to know what type of clauses do you use i.e. Amount of snowfall,salt? Just looking for ideas thx


My clause is,if it snow between Nov 1st and Apr.30th I plow it.


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## Kwise

trqjnky;1301550 said:


> I see guys on this forum tell people to figure out what your operating costs are and see what you have to charge.
> 
> Now, how in the everliving he'll are you going to convince a property manager to pay you 50-100 dollars an hour more than another guy "because you have more payments and bills"????? Shouldn't the proper way be "find out the rates in your area and build your business accordingly" ??? Don't add 100k worth of equipment if you can't pay for it and the employees to operate it on the current rates.
> 
> I made 15k last year with 2 trucks and below average snowfall. That's not bad cash. How did I make that? Because I keep costs low and can bid competitively! This year im adding a skid loader and 1 more truck. Since my other trucks are now paid for. I can still remain competitive when pricing, and make more money this year because I have more equipment,


My thoughts exactly. I feel that the work is worth what it's worth. It's up to the contractor to keep his costs down and do the work efficiently as to stay competitive and provide the customer with a good price. I understand it is good for a business owner to know what his costs are to know whether he is making money or not, but for the most part that doesn't change what a fair price should be for a job. If you were to go buy a new car, the cost of the car will be very similar from one dealership to another. It is up to the dealership to run efficiently and decide how much money they want to make on the sale.


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## Mick76

trqjnky;1301550 said:


> I see guys on this forum tell people to figure out what your operating costs are and see what you have to charge.This is an must, you cannot run an efficient snow removal operation if you don't have your costs figured out
> 
> Now, how in the everliving he'll are you going to convince a property manager to pay you 50-100 dollars an hour more than another guy "because you have more payments and bills"????? NO, its called efficiency... instead of putting a truck on a lot and its going to take 4 hours to do, you put a skid on the lots and it takes 1/2 the time. Better yet put a skid on the same lot with an arctic sectional (assuming its a seasonal account) and watch your profits grow even more.......since your done in 1/2 the time you'd get another lot close and charge accordingly for that one...effecively tripling your pay (do the math as I'm not doing it for youShouldn't the proper way be "find out the rates in your area and build your business accordingly" ??? Don't add 100k worth of equipment if you can't pay for it and the employees to operate it on the current rates.
> 
> I made 15k last year with 2 trucks and below average snowfall. That's not bad cash.you can be alot more efficient then that. When I first started out I had one truck, generally speaking I would make between 15-20K per season 85" snow on average.....they key was a tight route.... you should be able to easly make twice what your making now How did I make that? Because I keep costs low and can bid competitively! This year im adding a skid loader and 1 more truck. Why not 2 skids?...generally speaking you can plow twice that of a truck in the same time frame... they're a heck of alot more efficient if you ask me (if you get seasonl accounts look at the arctic pushers, they're expensive but will pay for themselves the first yearSince my other trucks are now paid for. I can still remain competitive when pricing, and make more money this year because I have more equipment,


Keep on reading and asking questions...lots of good info on here but also alot of BS


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## Mick76

kwise;1304638 said:


> i understand it is good for a business owner to know what his costs are to know whether he is making money or not, but for the most part that doesn't change what a fair price should be for a job. a "fair" price is dicated by your business needs.... Just because someone can plow a lot for x amount doesn't mean your company can it is up to the dealership to run efficiently and decide how much money they want to make on the sale. good example, now take "dealership" out of the sentence and insert "snow removal company" its the same in any business


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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## trqjnky

I see guys on this forum tell people to figure out what your operating costs are and see what you have to charge.This is an must, you cannot run an efficient snow removal operation if you don't have your costs figured out

we agree here, but i feel that new guys need more advice than that. like, figure out what you want to do and how much it will cost you to do it, and remain competative

Now, how in the everliving he'll are you going to convince a property manager to pay you 50-100 dollars an hour more than another guy "because you have more payments and bills"????? NO, its called efficiency... instead of putting a truck on a lot and its going to take 4 hours to do, you put a skid on the lots and it takes 1/2 the time. Better yet put a skid on the same lot with an arctic sectional (assuming its a seasonal account) and watch your profits grow even more.......since your done in 1/2 the time you'd get another lot close and charge accordingly for that one...effecively tripling your pay (do the math as I'm not doing it for youShouldn't the proper way be "find out the rates in your area and build your business accordingly" ??? Don't add 100k worth of equipment if you can't pay for it and the employees to operate it on the current rates.

on a large lot, a skid is too slow, as far as my experience goes anyways. and you want to add skids with artic pushers, triple your workload, to make the same money. also, you have to remember, here in iowa, we average 33 inches of snow per year. gonna be a long time before you pay for that skid and sectional pusher. some areas of the country cant produce the work required to pay for big money equipment. You say you triple your pay, but you triple your workload. so you are still making the same profit margin. the extra money goes to paying for equipment. you cant just go adding 10 grand worth of pushers every year, your overhead would be soo high, you would be plowing just to make equipment payments. i like money in my bank account myself.

I made 15k last year with 2 trucks and below average snowfall. That's not bad cash.you can be alot more efficient then that. When I first started out I had one truck, generally speaking I would make between 15-20K per season 85" snow on average.....they key was a tight route.... you should be able to easly make twice what your making now How did I make that? Because I keep costs low and can bid competitively! This year im adding a skid loader and 1 more truck. Why not 2 skids?...generally speaking you can plow twice that of a truck in the same time frame... they're a heck of alot more efficient if you ask me (if you get seasonl accounts look at the arctic pushers, they're expensive but will pay for themselves the first yearSince my other trucks are now paid for. I can still remain competitive when pricing, and make more money this year because I have more equipment,

once again 85" SNOW.... NOT EVERYWHERE HAS THAT... last year, my 15-20k, was made on 34 inches of snow, so how do you like those apples??? i made more money than you, on less snow. thats how a properly run business works. i made the same money, on almost 1/3rd of the snow. with 2 trucks, i still did better than you. dont just assume everyone gets 100 inches of snow per year. your points become invalid. when you do that.

Im sure youre a good guy, but i felt like arguing this morning. haha. i dunno, what is your rebuttle.


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## Mick76

trqjnky;1304665 said:


> we agree here, but i feel that new guys need more advice than that. like, figure out what you want to do and how much it will cost you to do it, and remain competative
> some things only experienbce will teach... when I first got into plowing many years ago the internet wasn't around...... we couldn't ask "how much for this lot?" on a forum...... we made mistakes, learned form them , and hopefully have a more efficient operations becuase of our mistakes
> 
> on a large lot, a skid is too slow, as far as my experience goes anyways. and you want to add skids with artic pushers, triple your workload, to make the same money. also, you have to remember, here in iowa, we average 33 inches of snow per year. gonna be a long time before you pay for that skid and sectional pusher. some areas of the country cant produce the work required to pay for big money equipment. You say you triple your pay, but you triple your workload. so you are still making the same profit margin. the extra money goes to paying for equipment. you cant just go adding 10 grand worth of pushers every year, your overhead would be soo high, you would be plowing just to make equipment payments. i like money in my bank account myself.
> 
> whats your idea of large? IN MY AREA a skid kicks a$$ on anything 3 acs or under (not a large lot but not small either)... if you want to plow a wally world you obviously need more then a skid
> 
> think about what you said... how are you tripling your workload? your being twice as efficient, getting neighboring lots and basically doing both lots for the time it wold take you to plow that first 4 hour lot with a truck... in my book thats making some good coin becuase your putting the proper equipment on the proper lots
> 
> 
> once again 85" SNOW.... NOT EVERYWHERE HAS THAT... last year, my 15-20k, was made on 34 inches of snow, so how do you like those apples???
> so you made 7500 per truck (i gues its a matter of opinion if thats good coin or not).... if it works for you then good i made more money than you, on less snow. thats how a properly run business worksmaybe you should teach me a few pointers?:laughing:.
> your comparing yourself now to what I was many years ago when I first started out. I'm not a "one man show" I have employees who are properly insured and have workers comp on them...can you say that? i made the same money, on almost 1/3rd of the snow. with 2 trucks, i still did better than you. dont just assume everyone gets 100 inches of snow per year. You know what happens when you ASSUME things, thats why I gave you my totals because YOU didn'tyour points become invalid. when you do that.
> 
> Im sure youre a good guy, but i felt like arguing this morning. haha. i dunno, what is your rebuttle.


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## trqjnky

good comeback...

as far as skids, anything tight they kick ass, but for long runs, open lots, they are too slow. in my opinion. maybe a 20k plus unit with two speed hydraulics might be better. but a single speed skid, what 6 mph top speed? thats too slow. 

and it is all relative to location, 100 plus inches per year would justify a big skidloader with a 10 ft sectional. but i can have a 9 ft western with wings on a dodge diesel, and go 25 miles per hour plowing big lots. of course a loader is better yet.

i know you have a good business and know whats going on. but we cannot bring sense to this argument. I was just pointing out that i was productive compared to what you were saying i was doing.

i am not a 1 man show either, not as big as you, but not as many years into the business either. i have 2 hired employees, and a sub, all legit with workmans comp, insurance, yadda yadda yadda. im legit just like you.

I assume that im awsome, youre not as awsome... 

2 years ago, iowa had 80" of snow, it damn near shut the state down. thats the difference in our locations, and justifications of equipment and services. 80" for you would be a slow ass year. 

rebuttal.....


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## NickT

Picture of me shoving popcorn in my mouth this is good


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## trqjnky

Its clear to ASSUME he has conceited defeat... i claim victory! the crowd goes wild!!! rrroooaarrrwhaaaa!!!!


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## snoway63

Here in New York it seems like anybody with a truck runs out and buys a plow and thinks they have a new business to make money and start lowballing just for beer money or whatever, and this really screws up the real companies cause these guys want to play in the snow but then come a big storm and they are no where to be found for thier customers and this is how i get new clients almost every yr, because the compananie that lost them to the new guy wouldnt take them back LOL thier lose my gain


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## grandview

It's not the lowballers fault,it's the cheap people who take them.


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## Mick76

trqjnky;1304785 said:


> Its clear to ASSUME he has conceited defeat... i claim victory! the crowd goes wild!!! rrroooaarrrwhaaaa!!!!


There ya go ASS U ME ing again... Sorry, I just got back from signing 2 more contracts on lots next to mine (Like I was TRYING to tell you earlier... its the experience factor)... no more equipment to buy and I added a NET profit to my bottom line of about 25K......Thumbs Up Who's the winner now?


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## grandview

Good,you buy the chicken dinners!


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## trqjnky

i win................


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## Mick76

grandview;1304857 said:


> Good,you buy the chicken dinners!


Yes sir, after all they are tax deductable!....LOL


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## snoway63

Like someone said earlier some clients will use low estimates to try and get you to go lower,2yrs ago a client i had for 3 yrs went with a lower bidder,but once we got some big storms the guy couldnt handle it and i got a call to come and help, so i did and i got my client back and now with a 2 yr contract.Clients will learn if you can bid on a seasonal price you are experienced most new people dont realize all the what if's that could happen and usually does to be able to put a fair bid in and cover all your base's.It is very competetive out there these days so you need to be efficient and keep your cost down to be able to give a fair bid. As far as going rates it really is based on each individual company as far as thier overhead. If my over head is less then someone elses I can charge less, but i never low ball but it gives me a competetive edge. Good luck this winter guys


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## Spucel

Mick76;1305044 said:


> Yes sir, after all they are tax deductable!....LOL


Tax Deductible is always a good thing! payup


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