# Braking with a plow on



## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

I have a new-to-me 2002 TJ with a Fisher Homesteader plow mounted on it. The plow I used to use on a RAM 1500. I just installed Timbrens to counteract the front end sag when the plow is lifted (I think they work great).

Here is my issue. So far I've only plowed during one storm with the Timbrens installed. Backing up, the brakes seem perfectly normal. Going forward there were several times where the TJ suddenly stopped, like I had slammed on the brakes. Maybe I screwed something up by accident when working on the springs/Timbrens. Maybe it's related to the weight of the plow. Maybe dust got on the brake rotors...

Driving with the plow off, everything seems fine. Of course it's in 2WD as well when the plow is off. Just curious what might be causing this unusual behavior.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Did it happen at all before you installed the Timbrens?

does it happen in 2wd with the plow on?

if you take the plow off and use 4wd, does the same thing happen when you brake going forward?

maybe with the plow on you’re resting on the Timbrens and you’re compressing something else because of that


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

It didn't happen before the Timbrens, but I haven't owned the vehicle long. I bought it specifically for plowing and I've been doing work on it regularly to get it in better shape for the job. So it's spending a lot more time in the garage and almost zero time on the road. I haven't even put 100 miles on it since I bought it in October. I haven't driven around with 4wd without the plow on it. I can take it for a spin to fill up with gas, but driving at road speed is very different than doing all my driving in the driveway. Would 4WD make a difference in braking?


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Brokk said:


> Would 4WD make a difference in braking?


it shouldn't, but you said it didn't do it 2wd, and that it only happened in 4wd with the plow on, so if it happens in 4wd with the plow off, then that points to the 4wd as being part of the problem.

Basically you just need to refine down to where the issue is by eliminating various scenarios


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

OK. Nothing obvious then. Just process of elimination. I can do that.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I’m thinking it has a bad transfercase.
Something is binding up,

It’s unrelated the the barking....
I mean the timbrens have nothing to do with it.

Ps Jeep also has/had a issue with the front 
diff. The bolts on the ring gear would come loose.


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

Well, the very next project is installing a new transmission mount. That might help. It will certainly stiffen things up. Current one is crumbling away.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Brokk said:


> Well, the very next project is installing a new transmission mount. That might help. It will certainly stiffen things up. Current one is crumbling away.


Why?
Because when it binds up the toque twists
Up the drive train ripping up the motor mount

What condition is the tranny mount in?

You need to fix the cause of this


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

"Current one is crumbling away." That is the transmission mount. Not the motor mount.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Look at the crossmember under the tranny,

It’s between the tranny and the crossmember. 
But they wouldn’t cause it to bind up.


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

Yup. That's the one that is crumbling away. I just had some work done where they had to pull the crossmember (skidplate) off and they told me I needed a new mount because the old one was degraded and crumbling. It just came in a couple days ago, which is why that's the next project for me.


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

The cause of the degradation, in the mechanics point of view, was that there are leaks over time and the soft mounts that often came with the TJ were not resilient to those fluids. They would cause the soft rubber to break down. He said it was very typical especially for a vehicle of this age and recommended I replace it with a polyurethane mount which will hold up better over time.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Yea.

You may need a new mechanic.

And you have a bigger issue.
Did he tell you why it’s binding up?


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

To be fair, it was a shop specializing in frame repair. The skid plate had pulled out of frame on one side so I was having both sides cut out and replaced.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Well then go to a open lot 
And pretend your plowing. 
Forward ,,reverse ( in4wheel drive)

Until it.... bindsup and let’s go, 
Then replace...

binding up is stressing the mounts ripping them apart, 

If the frame is rotted out at the skid plate mounts it’s rotted out elsewhere too. 

Good luck with it


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> If the frame is rotted out at the skid plate mounts it's rotted out elsewhere too.
> 
> Good luck with it


That's the thought that keeps me up at night...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I’d think it was the barking .


Lol. I’d be more concerned about its mobility
Issue.


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

No snow on the horizon and a couple warmer days coming up. I should be able to install the new mount, then I can take it out for a test drive. If the mount is allowing the tranny to shift around, I should address that first and see if that helps. If there are still issues, I can bring it to another mechanic. I need to have the pinion seals replaced on both front/back anyway. Both show signs of leaking, but there are no active drips.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

The dust shields on the front brakes still there?
Ive seen (specially when plowing and backdragging) snow gets on the roters. Just the right amount of moisture can cause the brakes to grab. To much water and the brakes slip. same with brake fluid. just the rite amount on the roter, will cause brakes to grab.


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

Update: I installed the transmission mount. It's all good. I used to hear an occasionally rattling under the TJ if I hit a rough spot while driving. That seems to be eliminated now. I didn't find any issues with normal driving, or driving in 4WD or even driving around a bit with plow attached (had to run to the station to fill up with gas).

I even made a few passes plowing with no issues, then it started happening again. Just occasionally.



theplowmeister said:


> The dust shields on the front brakes still there?


I'm not sure what they look like on the TJ, but based on other vehicles I've had, *if* they are still there, I don't think they are complete. It felt like I could reach in from behind the tire and touch the backside of the rotor, at least for some of it. It certain *feels* like the brakes are just being grabby/sticky when it happens. So I have a feeling you are right and that's my issue. I'll have to see about pulling off the tire completely and comparing it to pictures/diagrams of what I should be seeing.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

you should NOT be able to touch the roter from the backside of the wheel


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## t-sig (Feb 5, 2010)

Grabby brakes are usually a combination of brake fluid or grease and water on the shoes. You might have a leaking caliper or wheel cylinder. Are you having to top off the master cylinder occasionally?


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

I haven't played with anything involving the brakes yet. I've driven it less than 100 miles since registering it. I can check the fluid though.


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## bschurr (Nov 8, 2011)

I haven’t had this issue on my TJ but I would look at the quality of your brake fluid. 

Perhaps it’s time for a fluid swap and bleed?

Brakes can get a little grabby if the fluid is contaminated or there is air in the lines and the extra weight of the plow will necessitate additional braking power making the issue more noticeable. 
Good luck!


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

Well my brake line on the front driver side dissolved from corrosion this weekend. I just ordered a new set of pre-bent lines. Hopefully I can get enough of it done to make it usable before the next storm.


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

I replaced all the lines with SS versions. They were all corroded pretty heavily. Got everything working. Then my front brakes started having issues. Calipers seemed to be locking up. I replaced all the brake components in the front on both sides. Rotors, calipers, backing plates, pads. I don't drive it much, but the new brakes and lines seem to be working fine on the few occasions when I did drive it over the summer/fall. Yesterday I put the plow on for our first storm, and noticed the same basic problem. Going forward (especially down hill), the brakes are very grabby. Just moderate pressure on the pedal, and it reacts like I slamming on the brakes. I have to just touch the brakes lightly to get moderate braking.

It is acting like the weight on the front is causing excess friction. Any other thoughts?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

You replaced all the flex hoses also? As far as grabbing with the plow on, are the rears locking up from weight transfer to the front while braking?


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

are you using ballast? if not, might be the abs kicking in because of weight transfer


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

ABS (in my experience) has a stuttering feeling in the brake pedal. There is no indication of this. Most times I'm going light on the brakes because of this issue, so the tires aren't locking up.

No ballast. I used some last year, but I wasn't convinced it made much difference with the Jeep. It's such a short body. I had a RAM 1500 that I used to put around 400lbs in the very back next to the tailgate. That made a huge difference in pulling the nose up. Otherwise I would keep running the plow attachment into the ground everywhere. I also wouldn't be able to lift the plow off the ground enough without that ballast.

I definitely replaced the flex hoses in the front when I was replacing the brake lines. I remember taking things back apart when replacing the front brakes and appreciating the new hoses. The back doesn't have flex hoses if I recall. Which means I replaced everything from the Master Cylinder to the brakes in the back, and everything including the brakes in the front.

The only other variable I wasn't considering was 4WD. I don't typically drive around on the road with 4WD in good weather. So I don't think I have a good feel for the brakes with 4WD engaged. I'll take the plow off and give that a try to see if there is any difference.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Turn Off Traction Control


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

It's a 2002 Jeep Wrangler. I don't think it has traction control. I'm happy I don't have to get out and lock the hubs when shifting it into 4WD.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

leolkfrm said:


> are you using ballast? if not, might be the abs kicking in because of weight transfer


I think your on to something

The break proportioning valve sounds like it's messed up


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

OK, I just researched what you were saying because I was unfamiliar with the proportioning valve.

My Jeep TJ has no ABS. I believe it does has proportioning valve. It does not have anything else to sense axle weight or give feedback to the braking system.

The extra weight on the front axle should shift the braking bias to the rear, meaning the rear brakes will be more likely to lock up before the front. That's why adding ballast to the rear would be helpful. I can definitely give that a try.

However, I'm not aggressively braking. The proportioning valve should only come into play once a certain pressure point is reached, based on how hard you are stomping on the pedal. I'm plowing my driveway. I'm not even getting out of first gear. Typically the plow is lifted and I'm repositioning myself for the next push when I notice this behavior. My speed is likely 10mph or less. Positioning Valves shouldn't come into play in that scenario. Even if it did kick in, it should be reducing the pressure sent to the rear brakes. There is no scenario where it increases pressure. It is just a limiter. So I'm not seeing how the proportioning valve would end up increasing my braking power unexpectedly.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

your Jeep's proportioning valve controls the braking pressure bias between the front and rear brakes.

That’s it’s job.

Ps
A 02 has ABS


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

And

The brake proportioning valve is a metering device that equalizes the pressure between the front and rear brakes. The valve stops the flow, or pressure of brake fluid to the rear drum brakes during every heavy braking or emergency stops; otherwise, the rear brakes lock up and skid, receiving too much pressure from the master cylinder. A spool or stem slides back and forth inside the piston bore of the proportioning valve, according to the pressure it receives. Proportioning valves can get stuck at either end of the valve body, requiring a procedure to free them up.

Replacement is a good idea

On your rear axel there should be a thing
With a rod that is connected to the body/frame that’s what ya want to check oot


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

https://centricparts.com/getmedia/6...Whitepaper_D4-Proportioning-Valves_8-2018.pdf
According to this white paper, there is a Height Sensing Proportional Valve that uses a linkage in the rear to sense the axle weight and changes the valve accordingly. I promise you my TJ has nothing that fancy. Reading elsewhere that type of system has a control mounted in the rear so it can adjust the pressure to the rear brake lines. I have no such unit back there. A single line goes to the back axle, and has a T to send lines to both back brakes. It does not tie into any other control unit back there.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Lol
Did you ever think that is the issue .

That It’s mussing and your brake syestem was cobbled together ?


Ps

FYI My 94 Jeep Wrangler TJ had anti lock brakes And the valve on da rear axel.


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

I generally agree with what you are saying. Yes they can get stuck. Replacement is better. However if it was an issue, shouldn't I be seeing it during normal road use without the plow? Perhaps the plow is simply highlighting the issue...

If it is stuck open, then I would be getting too much pressure to my back brakes causing them to lock up before the front brakes. If it is stuck closed then my front brakes would be doing more work all the time as the back brakes would not be getting pressure soon enough to contribute to the stopping. In either case I wouldn't expect a huge increase in braking at very low speed and light brake pedal usage.

I will add ballast to the back and also test drive with 4WD engaged to make sure the issue is not related to something there.

If I can't find anything else, I can take it to a shop to have them test the pressure from the valve.


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> Lol
> My 94 Jeep had all of dat stuff


Was it a TJ?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

See post #37


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

I missed #37. It came in while I was posting.

2002 TJ. Some web sites claim none of them had ABS. Others list it as part of the equipment. Most likely it was an option and not standard. Do a search for brake lines on that model. There are different sets depending on whether you have ABS or not. Mine didn't have ABS. I have no ABS control unit. Not sure what to tell you. I'm not making it up. Even the service manual has two different pages. One showing the system with ABS and one without. I won't take issue with "cobbled together", as I did install the new brake lines myself and I'm not a professional by any means. I will tell you I didn't remove any equipment and I just replaced the stuff that was already there.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Ok

Then what is causing your issue?
Because there isn’t anything else. Jmo

Maybe a high speed glaze on the pads/ rotors would help to lower the friction...

Did you use slotted rotors?


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

I did not use slotted rotors.

Maybe I'm just overthinking things. Perhaps it's just physics. Adding all that weight on the front will create a lot more friction/grab so it takes less 'braking' to slow/stop the Jeep.

I've been plowing my driveways for the last 12 years since I bought this property. I've used a total of 4 vehicles and two different plows. I expected to have a feel for what it is like. This just feels different than any other setup I've used. The other three vehicles were much longer, so the weight in the front didn't seem to impact the other vehicles as much as it does on this old Jeep.

It's not dangerous or unuseable. I'm just not used to the plow being on the vehicle to change things so much as it does with this. So I was assuming something was wrong. Maybe it's just the way things are and I should stop stressing over it.

I've just found throughout my life that when something seems off, it usually is. Ignoring it is a bad idea. Sometimes that thing that bothers me is really nothing, in which case it's no big deal. It is the "not knowing" which worries me though.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Braking torque is not affected by weight on the wheels. Tire friction is.

However, the torque applied by the brakes is simply the product of the brake pressure applied, the area of the piston, and the friction coefficient between the pad and the rotor (or shoe and drum). 

If more weight created more braking, then your stopping distance would decrease with increasing weight, and that does not happen.

I'm inclined to think it is a proportioning valve problem exacerbated by the weight of the plow creating some rock as you brake.

However, trying to think out of the box, could you have a brake booster problem?


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

NOT Ballast!!!! you need COUNTER WEIGHT behind the rear axle. I use a #300 rear bumper that plugs into my receiver hitch on ALL my Jeeps


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

I think I need a #300 spare tire to bolt onto the back.  

My hitch receiver looks scary with rust. I'm not convinced #300 wouldn't pull it off.

Brake booster... Hmm. Need to look it up. I know I have one, but I'm not sure what it does or how it would be impacted by the plow weight.

I test drove it around in 4wd yesterday. At low speeds on pavement, even slight turns were impacted by the quad-posi-traction (not sure what it is officially called). The engine would fight against the friction of the tires trying to turn at different speeds. This could be part of what I'm feeling. It shouldn't happen in the snow, but it depends on the type of snow and how clean I scraped it. It did answer why sometimes I roll, friction free while other times it feels like something is holding me back. Even a small turn of the wheel made it noticeable.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Stick to one issue at a time .


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> Stick to one issue at a time .


Extra friction noticed with small turns would result in faster stopping. So it might appear to be brake related when it really is not. To me they could be part of the same issue.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

You didn’t mention Turing which is a different issue from your brakes being Grabby.

It’s Commen to feel some binding or a waddle when you have your wheels turned all the way and you’re asking the U-joints to go over center. On aA lot of rigs you can start feeling the waddel even sooner.

The braking issue happens when you’re going straight right. Sew.
The waddel is a different issue.

Do you have new brake calipers because your old brake calipers could be hanging up .

It doesn’t happen when you don’t have your plow on, So back to the proportioning valve.


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

New brake calipers on the front. Replaced everything there.

The 4wd issues is because all 4 tires are locked into rotating at the same speed, so as soon as you turn the wheel a little, the front tires are moving in a different path to the back, so the two sets of tires no longer can rotate in unison. You get this jerky feeling, like the motor is fighting against the tires. Very noticeable on dry pavement at a crawl. Driving normal road speeds there is no issue and if the road is slippery (ice/snow/water) then the tires can slip a little without binding up.

The question I can't answer is "Were the tires turned, even a little when the brakes felt grabby?" I'll have to wait until I hook the plow up again to figure that out.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Unless you have a Lincoln -lockers front and rear that doesn’t sound right.

The binding, Requiers you to give it more throttle, this is from your front axle you-joints going over center. 
the tires would scrub going around the turn smoothly because of different ratios and the different diameter of the circle which they would follow up, And this wouldn’t be as evident in vehicles with open differentials as they open differential allows one tire to rotate at a speed different from the other


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

I am going to threw this out there, maybe nothing to due w/ brakes.
On dry pavement in 4 wheel and turning the wheel is like pulling teeth!
The gears/splines are skipping, whining, grabbing and biting the dry pavement. Well at least on my 8.1L 4:10 rear I only engage 4w on snow,
ice. I avoid 4w low. Maybe ck./change frt. gear oil. Just a thought


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## TJS (Oct 22, 2003)

Not to jump into the fray bit it sure sounds like you bought a typical TJ rot bucket. I have looked at about 50 of them in the past year. Every single one the frames have the issue because the junk has no where to go. The ones I have looked at the seller did not even know about the rot until I reached up into the small hole in the frame near the front lower control arms and pull out flakes of rusty steel. I want to get one but don't feel like doing the safe-t cap kit. Better off finding a jeep from down south. I hope you did not pay a lot. Jeep owners are very proud $$. Well at least until I show them the rot. To your binding feeling. When I first read your post I thought it was the typical turning while in 4 wheel drive. Like others are stating now.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Stick to one issue at a time .


Friction?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Avalanche 2500 said:


> I am going to threw this out there, maybe nothing to due w/ brakes.
> On dry pavement in 4 wheel and turning the wheel is like pulling teeth!
> The gears/splines are skipping, whining, grabbing and biting the dry pavement. Well at least on my 8.1L 4:10 rear I only engage 4w on snow,
> ice. I avoid 4w low. Maybe ck./change frt. gear oil. Just a thought


By the sounds of it you might want to
Open up the T-case and replace some parts similar to these.

Or not


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Hydromaster said:


> Unless you have a Lincoln -lockers front and rear that doesn't sound right.
> 
> The binding, Requiers you to give it more throttle, this is from your front axle you-joints going over center.
> the tires would scrub going around the turn smoothly because of different ratios and the different diameter of the circle which they would follow up, And this wouldn't be as evident in vehicles with open differentials as they open differential allows one tire to rotate at a speed different from the other


I agree.

With front lockers it is damn near impossible to turn the wheel if there is any traction at all. They are extremely uncommon for this reason.

Rear lockers scrub tires, but don't create pops.

Old style posis will pop as they lock and unlock, but I don't know if newer ones will.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

Hydromaster said:


> Unless you have a Lincoln -lockers front and rear that doesn't sound right.
> 
> The binding, Requiers you to give it more throttle, this is from your front axle you-joints going over center.
> the tires would scrub going around the turn smoothly because of different ratios and the different diameter of the circle which they would follow up, And this wouldn't be as evident in vehicles with open differentials as they open differential allows one tire to rotate at a speed different from the other


Yes you would feel the tires rotating at different speeds. The transfer case on Jeeps lock front and rear driveshafts together.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

theplowmeister said:


> Yes you would feel the tires rotating at different speeds. The transfer case on Jeeps lock front and rear driveshafts together.


But unless you have a locking front or rear differential, the individual fronts and individual rears will still rotate at different speeds. The transfer case makes the average speed of the front axle shafts and the average speed of the rear axle shafts rotate at the same speed. The inside and outside tires can still rotate at different speeds unless the differentials themselves are locked.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

theplowmeister said:


> Yes you would feel the tires rotating at different speeds. The transfer case on Jeeps lock front and rear driveshafts together.


Yup
Had plenty of experience with jeep
I even have one.

edit, what he said^


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

take your Jeep put it in 4WD turn a sharp corner on dry pavement and tell me it doesn't waggle or bind up ....

This IS the internet


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

The front scrubs a little from the geometry of the steering. there a slight waddle from going over center of the U/joints,
I don’t need to apply more throttle to over come the resistance Nor did it jerk or Pop.

I get very little scrubbing from the rear.

You?

This ain’t my first 4x4.

Ps this is the Internet? Really? No way!


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

Thumbs Up


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## Brokk (Jan 11, 2009)

TJS said:


> Not to jump into the fray bit it sure sounds like you bought a typical TJ rot bucket.


Yup.

Did all the work to get the plow hooked up in the early winter, then in the first storm plowing the skid plate ripped free from the rotted frame in the middle of the vehicle. Good thing it was just on one side. I had a shop go the Safe-T-Cap route and replaced the mid section of the frame on both sides.

I got a great price on it. So I knew I was going to have a number of repairs to do. So far, not including my own labor, I've come out ahead of the game for cost.


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