# First year plowing, going well, need few tips...



## godjwood (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi,

My brother and I have never used a plow truck in our lives until this year and now have 35 residential accounts. It is going surprisingly well, but we keep losing accounts every storm.

Here is an example of what happened last storm:

We had a storm in RI yesterday, and it was projected to dump 9-15 inches, from 11am Wednesday until 1am Thursday morning.. It started snowing approximately 11am.

We have a 2 inch trigger on our accounts. We were trying to decide how to handle this storm because we figured people would want to be able to get into their driveways after work, but also if we plowed at say 1pm we would be plowing people with only 2-3 inches on their driveways, and by the time they got home at 5 there would be a good 4-5 inches there so they probably would not appreciate us plowing.

So we decided to start at around 4pm. The last customers we did not get to for the first run until about 2 am.

Because of this, we lost about 3 accounts. One account we lost said they could not get in their driveway after work so they plowed it themselves (they have an uphill driveway). Others were worried we would not make it so found someone else. 

What is your opinion on how we handled this and how would you handle it differently? It seems impossible to keep everyone happy unless you hardly have any customers to service.

Thank you for your time and input.


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## albhb3 (Dec 18, 2007)

should of started at 1 and at least got threw 1 round


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Storms like that suck. The first person doesn't have enough snow in it and the last one has to much! As you gain experience you'll get faster plowing. Do you have anything in your contracts about multiple plows?Unfortunately some of them will be billed twice ,just the way it is.


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## albhb3 (Dec 18, 2007)

Grandviews is out trolling again I see


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I charge by the storm not each time I plow, so for me I show up and plow ONLY a path for them to get in, that takes me 1/4 of the time that plowing the whole thing takes. (It would take me about 1.5 hours to that for 45 customers). Then depending on the storm I ether wait for it to finish and go back and do a complete job, or do another pass.

PLEASE do not write back that I am doing this wrong. It has been working for me for 23 years. I make money and my customers are happy


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## jblatti13 (Jan 24, 2009)

yeah i agree, storms like those leave ya in a bad spot. the storm here was suppose to be like that the past few days, we got lucky and had half the day to get things cleared before it dumped again. i think plowing a lane would be the best idea, and go back on your second round and clean everything up. sounds like a good plan, ive never had this problem though so i guess im lucky. but we charge per push, so when i get 2 full pushes out of storm, i make sure things are cleaned up each time so they know their getting thier moneys worth.


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

Call the customers back and explain the circumstances of the storm and tell them it won't happen again. Storms that go on for a long duration have to be plowed multiple times or people get upset.


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## Outd00r Maint.. (Nov 17, 2009)

just practice,and you'll be faster,and loosing some contracts dont let them bother your learning from your mistakes,after few runs youll find ways to do some property's faster


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

theplowmeister;996827 said:


> I charge by the storm not each time I plow, so for me I show up and plow ONLY a path for them to get in, that takes me 1/4 of the time that plowing the whole thing takes. (It would take me about 1.5 hours to that for 45 customers). Then depending on the storm I ether wait for it to finish and go back and do a complete job, or do another pass.
> 
> PLEASE do not write back that I am doing this wrong. It has been working for me for 23 years. I make money and my customers are happy


You're doing it all wrong!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

godjwood;996730 said:


> Hi,
> 
> My brother and I have never used a plow truck in our lives until this year and now have 35 residential accounts. It is going surprisingly well, but we keep losing accounts every storm.
> 
> ...


I think you need to get another truck out there. I don't know what you got going, but 10Hrs to do your route!? Try to get it to 4-5Hrs at the most. Even in heavy snow you need to finish faster.


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## JustinD (Jan 14, 2008)

Where in RI you from??


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

Just like grandview stated. Just start plowing and if some clients get billed twice then they get billed twice. This past storm I had quite a few clients that got pushed 2 or 3 times in a day. I am not going to run my equipment harder pushing more snow so my clients invoice is a cheaper at the end of the month. Good Luck this year.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Burkartsplow;997249 said:


> Just like grandview stated. Just start plowing and if some clients get billed twice then they get billed twice. *This past storm I had quite a few clients that got pushed 2 or 3 times in a day. I am not going to run my equipment harder pushing more snow so my clients invoice is a cheaper at the end of the month.* Good Luck this year.


This is my opinion as well. If you feel "guilty" for plowing 2-3 times in 9-15" of snow, you shouldn't. I think it's obvious why the route ended up taking 10 hrs. for one round, at the end of the round you were pushing way too much snow. We would have probably sarted pushign at 2-3" and planned on doing each drive at least twice. You probably can cut that route down to 4-6 hrs. doing it this way.

One thing an old plow boss used to tell me and I never forgot: I'd rather ask you WHY you did something rather than ask you WHY YOU DIDN'T.

Best of luck.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

That's just the way it is around here. Are they per push. Most people won"t pay for 2 plows in one storm unless we get a foot.Then if your late their pissed. If you get 2 trucks going you can cut your time down.I lose accounts sometimes for the same reason.Screw em Just replace them There's alot of guys plowing for beer this year so that is one of the problems.There is always someone driving around the neighborhoods looking for jobs so if your late people will grab them. I lost an account last storm for being late.She said she thought I wasn"t coming. She was a PIA anyways. Been doing her for two years Went by their at 2:30 yesterday and it still wasn"t done. Made me happy for some reason.I try to get the people with hills done first so they can get in. You should try to weed out the complainers anyway.Who needs the stress. Are your jobs to spread out? I see your painting trucks everywhere


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## godjwood (Oct 15, 2009)

grandview;996740 said:


> Storms like that suck. The first person doesn't have enough snow in it and the last one has to much! As you gain experience you'll get faster plowing. Do you have anything in your contracts about multiple plows?Unfortunately some of them will be billed twice ,just the way it is.


yes, we have contract that if 6" or more is expected we reserve the right to come twice. We were just trying to accomodate both the customers that want it done once at end of storm as well as customers that want driveways cleared. we just figured people who got billed for 2" of snow then come home and cant get in their driveway anyways cause there is 5" wouldnt be happy with the bill they received (although it is contracted..) Maybe we just do need our route shorter or another truck.


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## godjwood (Oct 15, 2009)

JustinD;997182 said:


> Where in RI you from??


We operate out of Narragansett but plow up into North Kingstown. Reason we are so spread out is many of our painting customers asked us to plow as well..


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## godjwood (Oct 15, 2009)

quigleysiding;997326 said:


> That's just the way it is around here. Are they per push. Most people won"t pay for 2 plows in one storm unless we get a foot.Then if your late their pissed. If you get 2 trucks going you can cut your time down.I lose accounts sometimes for the same reason.Screw em Just replace them There's alot of guys plowing for beer this year so that is one of the problems.There is always someone driving around the neighborhoods looking for jobs so if your late people will grab them. I lost an account last storm for being late.She said she thought I wasn"t coming. She was a PIA anyways. Been doing her for two years Went by their at 2:30 yesterday and it still wasn"t done. Made me happy for some reason.I try to get the people with hills done first so they can get in. You should try to weed out the complainers anyway.Who needs the stress. Are your jobs to spread out? I see your painting trucks everywhere


a lot of people from RI on here im surprised.. how big is your area? Yea we have been getting plenty of calls to replace the people who drop out, but it still doesn't feel good when you get dropped, makes you feel like your not doing a good job.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

godjwood;997868 said:


> a lot of people from RI on here im surprised.. how big is your area? Yea we have been getting plenty of calls to replace the people who drop out, but it still doesn't feel good when you get dropped, makes you feel like your not doing a good job.


We plow for the state.then we have a few drives n.k. and a couple of lots and about 15 driveways in warwick.Plus a lot we sand in hope valley for a friend. Two trucks do the state.My brother in law does the lots,then we all go do a few after the state kicks us loose. We still get behind sometimes because everything is so spread out and sometimes the state keeps us.If you need some help my brother in law still has some time available if you get backed up.You should try to get another truck if you can though.It"s hard to spend cash on a truck though when it hasn"t snowed much.There will be some cheep trucks for sale this spring. You can get yourself set up for next year. Two Brothers = two trucksDon"t worry about the lost accounts.I know what you mean about it bothering you though.It makes everybody :realmad:when you lose work.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Forgot to mention it"s hard to make a plan when the weathermen say we are going to get 10-15 and we only get 5 inches.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Sounds like another truck might help. But you'll never please them all no matter how good you are. People are less patient now days and think 10" of snow should be treated as if it were 3". Add in a long duration snow fall or snow at the wrong time of day ? Do your best and replace the rest?


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## godjwood (Oct 15, 2009)

Kubota 8540;998304 said:


> Sounds like another truck might help. But you'll never please them all no matter how good you are. People are less patient now days and think 10" of snow should be treated as if it were 3". Add in a long duration snow fall or snow at the wrong time of day ? Do your best and replace the rest?


seems like it wouldnt be a very good investment for another truck.. i mean our run is 35 accounts, or about $1300 per round. If we have two trucks its like $650 per storm for the truck and weve only had 3 plowable storms this winter. Wouldnt even be able to pay off our expenses...


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## VPRacing (Dec 26, 2009)

We dont have as many resi's as you, 15, but we have quite a few commercial lots that need to get plowed by 8am when they open. I tell all my customers if its urgent to please call me otherwise we will assume you would like us to wait until the storm is over. We charge per push so it is completely up to the customer.

We also have 2 trucks but one just got nailed by an idiot that wasnt paying attention to where he was going so we've been down to 1 truck (mine) for the last 2 storms which puts a limit on who gets plowed when.

It can be tough but just talk to them and explain how it works, see who wants it done and when. It has worked for us very successfully.


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## FordFisherman (Dec 5, 2007)

I would concentrate on tightening up your route and start plowing at your 2" trigger no matter what if you're forecast to get that amount of snow.


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## DRIFTER92 (Oct 7, 2009)

"One thing an old plow boss used to tell me and I never forgot: I'd rather ask you WHY you did something rather than ask you WHY YOU DIDN'T." 

Had the same problem on a couple resi's between contract work one definitely didn't mind multiple plows the other i wasn't sure of, i plowed her drive 3 times in a 18 hr window over 2 days. Decided if she didn't want it done that often then i would knock off part of the bill since she just signed up as a customer that day and being new didn't know what to do... obviously with 35 accounts you couldn't do that but i made one customer happy to pay her bill, and the drive is only 20' so 2 back drags and i was done, wasn't too concerned about my time as i was keeping a customer since word of mouth advertisement is the best, and i just got into a subdivision that A) the landscape crew is just that. B) its 1/4 mile from my house and has 100+ Homes with 20' drives... Hoping next year to contact the property manager.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

godjwood;998959 said:


> seems like it wouldnt be a very good investment for another truck.. i mean our run is 35 accounts, or about $1300 per round. If we have two trucks its like $650 per storm for the truck and weve only had 3 plowable storms this winter. Wouldnt even be able to pay off our expenses...


True, didn't say it would be profitable, just that it would have helped. I have already tried that approach and it works on the snowy years, but then they set for a long time on the lean years. After 25 years of plowing, the long duration storms with 10+ inches still suck and can make you look bad. Fortunately for me driveways are not my priority nor are they what keeps me in business. There was a time when they were, but in order to stay in the money even on the not so good years, commercial was my answer. The best you could do is to start earlier, plow more often then listen to them complain about how many times you plowed and charged them for. I think trying to give you an absolute answer, would be totally impossible. 10 hours for 35 drives seems long but that also depends on how far apart these drives are. Every market is different. My residential drives will not pay for more than 1 plow per 10" storm, but they want plowed just as soon as it stops snowing. I already know thats not going to happen.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

You don't need another truck IMO. It takes a while to get the hang of it. On a storm like that I try to knock the ends out and clear a path so people can get in from work. Have to do the same thing on a storm that ends at 6 am. You just can't get everywhere at once. 

A couple of things that will help. 

Call your customers and talk to them. Find out what there schedules are, and what they have for vehicles. I know all of mine by now, so I know who is the priority, who can get out, and who isn't even going anywhere.

Examine your route. Draw a map if you need to, with the houses, how much you make, and how long it takes you to service them/that section of your route. I had a loop I did last year. Four accounts, took about an hour, billed out about $125. Not bad money, and I hate to let business go. So I kept doing it. The biggest account sent me a note in the fall they had someone else for this year. So I called the other one that was further out and suggested they find someone else. Saves me a ton of time, totally worth it. The people furthest out were "friends", and I do other work for them, but it just didn't make sense to keep plowing them. 

I bet you can look at some of the customers on the ends, and trim them off.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

You said you and your brother? Are you 2 riding together? Are you also providing other services? Shoveling walks?


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## godjwood (Oct 15, 2009)

Kubota 8540;1001223 said:


> You said you and your brother? Are you 2 riding together? Are you also providing other services? Shoveling walks?


Hi,

Yes, we ride together and shovel about 60% of the walks as well as salt the walks. Last storm we averaged $100/hr for the truck. Is this reasonable?

Also, last storm the snow was wet and heavy. My brother insisted on not back dragging from the garage doors because it compacted the snow there and he was afraid it would freeze, this made it take a lot longer. What do you think?


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

godjwood;1001648 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes, we ride together and shovel about 60% of the walks as well as salt the walks. Last storm we averaged $100/hr for the truck. Is this reasonable?
> 
> Also, last storm the snow was wet and heavy. My brother insisted on not back dragging from the garage doors because it compacted the snow there and he was afraid it would freeze, this made it take a lot longer. What do you think?


IMO anytime you can make $100 / hour its decent, with some time operating the plow you'll be able to make even more. 2COR said examine your route and maybe do some cutting, not a bad idea, however, its not going to snow like it did everytime? Wet Snow is part of the reason I plow with the Kubota, it really doesn't make a difference whether its wet or fluffy? Did you have to wait on your brother after you were done plowing the drive? With a long duration snowfall, its hard to please every customer. After 25 years of plowing, I still find customers who will never be pleased no matter what I do. I really wouldn't worry to much about losing a few customers.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

godjwood;1001648 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes, we ride together and shovel about 60% of the walks as well as salt the walks. Last storm we averaged $100/hr for the truck. Is this reasonable?
> 
> Also, last storm the snow was wet and heavy. My brother insisted on not back dragging from the garage doors because it compacted the snow there and he was afraid it would freeze, this made it take a lot longer. What do you think?


That hourly is a little low for driveways IMO. Are you saying if the two of you went out in the truck together for 10 hours you took in a grand altogether? Way too low.


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## godjwood (Oct 15, 2009)

2COR517;1001740 said:


> That hourly is a little low for driveways IMO. Are you saying if the two of you went out in the truck together for 10 hours you took in a grand altogether? Way too low.


actually it was 13 hours and we did about 1350 i think.

What should we expect hourly for driveways? I think I got the pricing right just need to tighten the route i think.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

I can knock out my per push stuff in about 4 hours. About $800. Shovel one door out.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

I think the per hour rate shouldn't be your main focus. It should be how to cut down the time it takes to plow all the drives and still do a good job. The hourly rate will work itself out. To me it sounds like you and your brother rode together, he or both of you jumped out and shoveled in front of the garage so it didn't pack down, then backed in and plowed the driveway?


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## andcon83 (Dec 10, 2005)

2COR517;1001208 said:


> You don't need another truck IMO. It takes a while to get the hang of it. On a storm like that I try to knock the ends out and clear a path so people can get in from work. Have to do the same thing on a storm that ends at 6 am. You just can't get everywhere at once.
> 
> A couple of things that will help.
> 
> ...


Very good info. I have turned down people this year because they have to get out early, and I can't get to that part of my route till later. Get accounts that fit your route. It may take you YEARS to get it down pat. In this area, there is alot of camps that people want cleaned, but are only there once or twice a month. That helps me out alot. You will get it!! Good Luck!!


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## godjwood (Oct 15, 2009)

Kubota 8540;1001784 said:


> I think the per hour rate shouldn't be your main focus. It should be how to cut down the time it takes to plow all the drives and still do a good job. The hourly rate will work itself out. To me it sounds like you and your brother rode together, he or both of you jumped out and shoveled in front of the garage so it didn't pack down, then backed in and plowed the driveway?


yea, basically. he would first back in and plow what he could and we would both shovel when he finished plowing. sometimes he would drive in and try to push it off to the side.

yea- speaking of doing a good job- i have heard from some people before that their last plow guy wouldnt even shovel in front of the garage doors, wouldnt leave his truck. isnt that pretty hack?

i keep thinking of more questions- our first time out we only plowed like a shovel width walk to the front door. we got a complaint about this so have been trying to shovel wider- what do people expect in general?


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

godjwood;1001797 said:


> yea, basically. he would first back in and plow what he could and we would both shovel when he finished plowing. sometimes he would drive in and try to push it off to the side.
> 
> yea- speaking of doing a good job- i have heard from some people before that their last plow guy wouldnt even shovel in front of the garage doors, wouldnt leave his truck. isnt that pretty hack?
> 
> i keep thinking of more questions- our first time out we only plowed like a shovel width walk to the front door. we got a complaint about this so have been trying to shovel wider- what do people expect in general?


Careful now this 50+ year old hack likes the heated cab.....:laughing:......I think I earned it.  I personally stay away from the "S" (shovel) word in anything I write.

They generally expect everything? I know this sounds like and is more money, but a rear pull type plow would also be of help. Back up to the garage door , drop the pull plow and drive out to the end. Maybe a back drag blade edge?

The more time in the cab, the more money you will make, and the warmer you will be.....


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

You really need to avoid the shoveling. I get within a foot or so of stuff and backdrag or push to the side. That's it. If you do offer shoveling, charge enough to make it worthwhile. But you do need to shovel the full width of the walk/steps. Even if you have to go back and widen it that's fine. Just let them know you will be back.


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## DRIFTER92 (Oct 7, 2009)

If you are shoveling the drive why not push from road to the garage door then shovel the pile to the sides.... at least its a pile and not the length of the truck??? I hope your $100/hr is after expenses... i charge the same to shovel a walk as to back drag a drive... why? b/c i can make more money sitting in the cab. $100/hr is low imo. thats 5 drives an hour @ $20 but you're salting so its got to be more than that i would hope. Take a step back and get a new perspective on this deal if you're making that rate an hour and still losing customers something(s) is(are) way wrong.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Drifter,
Did you put back drag blades on your plow?


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## DRIFTER92 (Oct 7, 2009)

No i just push half drive forward backdrag then to the other half im working on the "TOP SECRET DOWN PRESSURE" switch next chance i get... Ive got connections in the black market now...

I need to get my left side smart lock cylinder fixed before i start jacking with custom add ons. Dont wanna bounce my warranty for some odd reason they think that my mod caused it.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

DRIFTER92;1001892 said:


> No i just push half drive forward backdrag then to the other half im working on the "TOP SECRET DOWN PRESSURE" switch next chance i get... Ive got connections in the black market now...
> 
> I need to get my left side smart lock cylinder fixed before i start jacking with custom add ons. Dont wanna bounce my warranty for some odd reason they think that my mod caused it.


Are you going to use one of those cool military style switches with the safety guard?


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

DRIFTER92;1001892 said:


> No i just push half drive forward backdrag then to the other half im working on the "TOP SECRET DOWN PRESSURE" switch next chance i get... Ive got connections in the black market now...
> 
> I need to get my left side smart lock cylinder fixed before i start jacking with custom add ons. Dont wanna bounce my warranty for some odd reason they think that my mod caused it.


Top SECRET down pressure ? The Kubota took that out of the equation for me. Plus I can slide the snow pile about 6' out in the grass without putting a tire in the turf. Looks like I'm going to get a salting in tonight.


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## DRIFTER92 (Oct 7, 2009)

Just heading out now to do cleanup on the lots... its been steady flurries i bet we'll have about 3" to clean off, i hope...


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## godjwood (Oct 15, 2009)

DRIFTER92;1001873 said:


> If you are shoveling the drive why not push from road to the garage door then shovel the pile to the sides.... at least its a pile and not the length of the truck??? I hope your $100/hr is after expenses... i charge the same to shovel a walk as to back drag a drive... why? b/c i can make more money sitting in the cab. $100/hr is low imo. thats 5 drives an hour @ $20 but you're salting so its got to be more than that i would hope. Take a step back and get a new perspective on this deal if you're making that rate an hour and still losing customers something(s) is(are) way wrong.


its more like 2 drives an hour at $50 a drive.. I think too much driving time in between, hopefully with years to come we will tighten our route..

weve been charging people in increments, for example $50 for 2-6", $70 for 6-9, and $105 for 9-12..

I got the pricing method off this site, however, I think it is mostly used for commercial lots? Since then I have gathered that most guys will charge either a flat rate or like 50% more if its over 8"

I dont know but a lot of contractors around here have told me that they are surprised we can get people to agree to both a 2" trigger and incremental pricing.. I think our customers trust us and pay whatever we charge..


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