# Why do you use sand?



## Wilburn Parks (May 16, 2001)

I live in the Detroit area and for a long time most of the post from the Northeast all talk about sanding. I've have lived here all my life and have never seen the streets sanded always salted. Why do you sand when salting is so much better. It melts the snow then there is no snow left on the streets. I have always wondered why now I'm asking? Doesn't it leave a mess when the snow finally melts?


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## dan deutekom (Feb 10, 2001)

Salt really dosn't aid traction very much but it does melt snow until the weather gets too cold. In areas where it gets cold we use sand to aid in traction because the ice won't melt in a reasonable time. We mostly use a sand/salt mix. Yes it does leave a mess to be cleaned in spring but the upside to that is more billable work sweeping the lots.


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## firemedic680 (Oct 22, 2002)

I must admit i always wanted to ask the same question. The closest thing to that we have around here is that the local twp's will spread stone at the intesections because they cant affor to salt.


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

I ask the same thing,what a mess it is,and its very dusty,and plugs up drains too. I use salt only,99% of the guys around here use sand or a sand /salt mix (usually less than 15% salt).It does not melt anything,just an eyesore.Certain ares you need sand,but 99% of my places,I will not use it.When people see me,they ask me if i sand all the time,they reffer to my spreader as a sander.I lost an account to a low baller last yr becuae hesands to for free-what a joke,it looks like mud,its always frozen,and his spreader is shot,it has no chuter,just a spinner,so it leaves little clumps of frozen mud ir whatever it is.It's ruined his expensive tile floor in 2 yrs,and his lot has been packed ice all season long.I told him,no wonder it was free,he knows what he's and his service is worth.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Two main reasons - Tradition and Economics. Even though I plan to use a treated salt next year for paved areas, I will likely continue to use sand/salt on gravel drives and private roads. Initial cost of material is much less for sand/salt and there is no spring cleanup for a gravel drive. I've even been experimenting this winter with treated sand.

However, I understand that our state is about to outlaw the use of sand since it's considered a pollutant. That should be interesting.


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

Mick,your right about gravel,a mix is better IMO there too.None of the private lots drives here,they do not want sand,to messy.They dont even like the magic salt,to dark for them.Everyone thinks Magic salt is sand when i spread it.


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## CPSS (Mar 15, 2002)

We only use 100% salt. It melts ice very well down to about 15-20 degrees, does OK down to 5-10 degrees, remember if the sun is shining the pavement is warmer than the air temp. I have to disagree with the statement that salt doesn't aid traction, it works as good or better than sand, and when the sun shines a little, it starts to melt. Salt is lighter than sand or mix, therefore we can carry more in our V-box without overloading the truck. I think the main reason people use sand or mix is that its much cheaper to buy, but if you actually figure it out, its not that much cheaper to apply because you have to use less salt to do the job. I have many accounts that don't want sand or mix because of the mess it makes in the lots, which then gets tracked into the offices.


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## jkkalbers (Mar 29, 2002)

We use a sand salt mix as do most people around here, Salt doesn't do much alot of the time because it's too cold for it to work so in the mean time sand provides traction. Also I've always wondered how you guys can sell your customers pure salt doesn't it cost a fortune?


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## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

> _Originally posted by jkkalbers _
> *We use a sand salt mix as do most people around here, Salt doesn't do much alot of the time because it's too cold for it to work so in the mean time sand provides traction. Also I've always wondered how you guys can sell your customers pure salt doesn't it cost a fortune? *


straight salt is just so much more effective,you use so much less.Why dump 3 tons of mix,when less than a ton of salt will do a better job.Now which one is more cost effective ?

Do a search on that topic,lots of good discussion on cost.

We use just salt.We will only spread mix,if we need cannot melt the ice fast enough and need some form of traction.


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## mulchmonkey2000 (Jul 1, 2002)

I always thought it depended on what was more readily available for your area. Here in Pa they uses a stone/salt mix. Parts of NJ that i've been to have used a sand/salt mix.


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## NNJSnow (Feb 16, 2002)

I know my town uses a mix for one the sand does give some tracting and the salt is very effective but this also lessins the amount of salt the are using by having a mix yet is still effective in aiding in snow/ice control


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## drobson (Oct 22, 2002)

Around here they have done both, although a sand/salt mix is the norm. When they use just salt and it re-freezes because of a below zero temp, having a sand mix in with the ice gives better tractions. It is also good for pedestrian areas for traction as well as visually letting them know the areas that have been treated. Less slip and fall accidents if they walk on the areas that have been treated instead of the areas that either haven't been yet or were missed.


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## lamarbur (Jan 17, 2003)

Where I live, we have to use sand/salt mix. Can't use pure salt or calcium pure. Too many reservoirs and other water facilities (ie) wet lands etc. Town of Brimfield was sued and lost because of excessive salt which (supposedly) worked it's way into the acquifer. Suffice to say that several wells were contaminated and then shut down. Of course this took years to happen, not just a few. Sand gives traction.


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## CPSS (Mar 15, 2002)

You should see what the state does to the roads around here. There is so much salt on them now that when a large truck passes you there is a huge cloud of white, not snow, salt!


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Most of you guys using salt are on pavement surfaces,most of the work here in the northeast(at least residential) is gravel and would take entirely to much salt to be effective,so we deal with it and just give traction as opposed to complete snow/ice removal like the rest.


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## BRL (Dec 21, 1999)

I haven't used sand for years, and even then only used it once in a while. The exception is one sub that salted for me the last 2 years used mix, and the mix was free to him to use, so technically free for me. I only had to pay him his truck fee, and since he could blow out my whole route in 1\3 the time I could with my spreaders & other subs, I would take his mix on the lots where it was not banned. I couldn't argue with that. 

That's a good point Arc Burn. 

I think Digger242? posted the links to the studies, but the sand only provides traction for the first few cars after it's spread on roads, then it is moved out of the natural tire track areas & provides no further traction. So it is considered a waste of time for that application. For parking lots & driveways that don't have fast moving traffic, it won't move as much & can provide traction. In January we had a 2 week or so period of temps not getting above freezing. During 1 of those weeks we had 6 days in a row where the high barely got to 20 degrees and we received 3\4" - 2" snows 4 days in a row. This made for real slippery conditions, and I thought I would end up needing to sand for traction for sure. However we were able to maintain safe pavement conditions with untreated straight salt much to my surprise. Most of those nights the lows were in the low single digits and wind chills dropped below zero a couple of those nights. The salt provided traction until the sunlight hit the pavements each AM, and it would then start working. So I think the only time I may ever use sand again would be for heavy ice storms.


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## Joey D (Jan 6, 2002)

I have a steep driveway that I do that if I sand it before it snows I can drive up plowing, if not it is very hard to make it up. It seems the sand keeps the snow from freezing to the pavement. I use calcium for all other driveways and walks.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

The town I grew up in uses straight salt 90% of the time. When the temps dropped really low, they switched to a sand/calcium mix. They would treat the sand with liquid calcium. Now that makes a little more sense to me. The calcium works at lower temps, and the sand becomes the "carrier" to actually spread the calcium.

We can all agree that salt is a waste on gravel.

~Chuck


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## drobson (Oct 22, 2002)

There are areas around here that have to use straight sand because salt is restricted, mainly roads that run off to reservoirs.


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## mike9497 (Oct 30, 2002)

well my supplier is 2 blocks away and they only have sand/salt mix in bulk.if they stocked straight salt in bulk i would use it 99.9% of the time


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## John Allin (Sep 18, 2000)

Evidence is becoming more conclusive that sand is not environmentally safe to use as a traction agent. In Colorado, if they are forced to use sand on the roadways, state law says it has to be cleaned up within 48 hours. The particulate matter that in introduced into the atmosphere during sand spreading operations is harmful to lungs.

Some authorities on deicing (mostly from studies done at various educational institutions) predict that sand will be outlawed in most states within the next 20 years.


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## Yard (Dec 22, 1999)

John- Just wondering if you're aware of any studies dealing with the runoff of salt and other deicing products? I'm curious about the effects of the runoff into water supplies. Also around here most of the catch basins lead into streams and rivers which eventually dump into the ocean. 
Thanks


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## CPSS (Mar 15, 2002)

I'm certainly no enviromental engineering expert, but... I can't help but think that the amount of salt that makes it into lakes and streams is very small in relation to the actual percentage. There is a tremendous volume of water (rain, ice, snow) that flushes through these waterways. Look at the actual road surface area compaired to the total land area in a given area. Maybe .01 %. Certainly cities would be a higher percentage of road surface. I would like to see some actual studies before I believe that road salt is really a problem. I have heard that the sand creates airborne silicates that are constantly re-suspended in the air as cars and trucks drive over the road. Not to mention the "sand blasting" effect this causes on our vehicles windshields.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

I'm sure if you go to www.saltinstitute.org you can find extensive info on run-off issues, not to mention anything and everything you ever wanted to know about salt, and then some!

~Chuck


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

John/and or Chuck,correct me if i'm wrong,but all these studies are on highways and secondary roads,there is never any mention of using it on private gravel driveways were sand is your only option?


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## CT18fireman (Nov 30, 2000)

I feel bad for all those people who go to the beach every summer. Not only is the sun bad for them but now the sand as well???

I was in Northbrook, IL two weekends ago and we landed at night. Driving to my in-laws I thought it had snowed there was so much salt on the roads. Unbelievable to me.

I use both here and I think both have the applications. In high traffic areas I actually think a mix works better. The salt does some melting and then the sand provides traction and as cars traverse the area the "heat" causes more melting. Salt is great for lots and drives with less "traffic". Just my $.02. 

CTDOT uses more sand then anyone around here. They really like to lay it on thick.


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## John Allin (Sep 18, 2000)

I know it's a real problem in CT... but, eventually they'll get 'educated' and that will come to an end...

If salt is applied correctly, there is little - if any - runoff. Most people overapplicate in a very, very big way. Unfortunately, some of that is customer driven. However, if customers are educated properly they will understand the way things work and overapplication practices would become unnecessary.

Chuck's right about the Salt Insititute. Andy Briscoe is probably THE most educated person I have spoken with about salt and it's proper usage.


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## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

While the CT dot may use alot of sand check their mix, it also has a lot of salt in it. At least a 50/50 mix if not hotter. Also on interstates they also lead with a truck that is 100% salt. To say that CT DOT isnt educated or any DOT for that matter is really a bold statement. I am not saying that they cant learn more, or know everything, but I am sure they at least know something.
The particulate matter is not intruced during spreading operations, it come from the material once it has been traveled over and then lifted into the air by passing vehicles usually after the event is over. Add to that in Colorado being alot higher above sea level, and the atmoshpere being thinner, the material stays aloft alot longer.
It is the lesser traveled roads, and hilly parking areas, that may need traction aid while the salt works.
Dino


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## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

I used to be a sand guy till 3 years ago when I went to all salt for the most part. 

The true cost of sand for my job.

1. Send a guy to the pit with a loader to screen the sand.
2. Stack the sand
3. Load the sand
4. Haul the sand to our shop
5. Mix the sand with the salt at our shop
6. Pile the sand at the shop
7. Load the sand into a truck
8. Apply the sand with a truck
9. Wash the truck
10 Sweep the sand in the spring
11. Haul the sand to a dump location ( can't really me reused to much crap in it)
12. Level the sand at dump location

12 Steps to apply sand


The cost of salt

1. Load boat (not our problem comes with the cost of salt)
2. Unload boat (again not our problem)
3. Load truck or warehouse (again not our problem)
4. Haul to shop (again not our problem our bid requires it to be delievered)
5. Pile in the building
6. Load truck
7. Apply salt
8. Wash the truck. 

4 Steps for us to apply salt, at 35 dollars a ton. 

The true cost of sand for us is about 80 dollars per ton. That doesn't include the cost of reditching areas, and releveling the sholders that the sand has raised.

Geoff


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Geoff,I'm by no means arguing your points BUT,like i have said 100 times,salt is not an option for my applications,i dont know about your area but here i call the gravel bank and a tri axle pulls in a couple hours later and dumps my sand and to get technical we use "pea stone"a fine round washed stone,spreads great and is pretty cheap,from there we cover it and load as needed,not to difficult.
It's obvious salt is the only way to go on pavement but i think everyone who responded to this thread in favor of salt should specify(for those who don't know)that your using this salt on pavement,i have tried it on gravel and the amounts needed to be effective are certainly not cost effective,i would love to use it but theres no sense in this area.


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## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

I don't think anyone has argued that salt is the best method to be used on gravel road. I have 5 miles of gravel to deal with, and yes it gets a sand salt mix. 

Do we still use sand, yes we will always have a good size pile. For when the temperatures and conditions require it. 

However if i was to try to use sand on a major road, I would have to try to resand the road every few hours, because at high speeds the sand end up off the road. 

For my salt is the most economical, approach for paved areas.

Geoff


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Once again Geoff,your 100% right,i just wanted to be sure to point out to some of the new guys that this salt is on pavement,i realize the veterans here know that but some of these posts suggest that salt is the only way to go-period.


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## mike9497 (Oct 30, 2002)

well in my part of CT they hardly spread anything on the roads.i watch the DOT drive by my office off of RT80 and the beds are full all night.when i use to sub for the DOT i would get 7 yards of sand/salt mix and that was it for the storm.lasted about 2 1/2 hours.then it really sucked trying to plow in 2 wheel drive with a 1800 lbs plow on the front.not counting the lift frame which was another 1200 lbs.but the town of east haven uses tons of this special mix.its not sand but it looks like it.its not just salt.i was told it was some kind of food product that you can eat if there wasn't salt mixed in it.theres piles of it in the middle of the road.but i noticed its cleaner and doesn't stick to the trucks like sand does.


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Perhaps maybe pepper?or could it be garlic


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## CPSS (Mar 15, 2002)

Here's an interesting quote: "Abrasives have no melting effect for deicing operations, in fact research by the Strategic Highway Research Program (SHRP) and the University of Wisconsin suggests that sand inhibits the melting process of deicing materials. "


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## GesnerLawn (Nov 30, 2002)

I don't know what affect salt runoff has to surface water bodies, but I know that it does affect ground water near roadsides substantially, often creating levels above the levels recommended for human consumption. Uncovered municipal salt storage facilites have also been a problem here in CT. 

My town uses mostly sand with just enough salt mixed in to keep the pile (uncovered) from freezing.


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## landscaper3 (May 2, 2000)

We use a sand and salt mix, why salt, here in Maine it is over $60.00 per ton and sometimes more. We can buy sand and salt mix for $18.00 a ton. We are making a storage facility for our sand this summer and its a EPA and DEP laws agianst us storing salt at our shop! If we are caught stock piling bulk salt we will be fined hundreds of thousands of dollers due to, our shop is located by a lake. Our local town can use salt on roads over 1000 feet past any water or drains otherwise MUST use sand. Cost wise we make more money sanding then salting due to the cost factor plus we also do commercial lot sweeping and gives us an extra income. I tried salt but with temps always (most of the time) below zero at night thats another reason for sand for traction aid!
I wish it was cheaper for me to salt but with the EPA and Dep laws we cant.


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## Rooster (Dec 13, 1999)

Not sure where I read the information (may have been John A. book).

Sand is useless as a traction agent after 5 to 6 vehicles have run over it (making the sand embed into the ice, rendering it useless as a traction agent).

Being concerned, I did my own tests locally, of course time and temp will effect conditions, I did speak to the DPW in my city, this winter they are running tests at various locations. It will be interesting to see the information that comes from that study.

We have a new city manager one of his pet peeves is snow and ice control and removal. My take on that is when and if we get more snow or ice in the future sand will be done away with.

Rick


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Far be it from me to argue with John Allin(he knows more about this stuff than i ever will!)My only concern is HOW people are comparing salt to sand,.These studys are from State and local DOT's primarily on very high traffic paved roads,will sand last there,of course not,those of us who use sand are using it on private drives,the homeowner goes to work,then they come home,they dont drive 65mph up there drive,they don't drive up and down it 200 times a day,I personally have never had any complaints or problems with sand in my application,in fact people have noticed when i plow a storm after sanding a previous event,i actually scrape the sand back up,thus eliminating the need to sand after that event.Salt is hands down the only way to go on pavement,after reading these posts this is not being compared equally,again, i have NO disagreements with anything said as long as people understand what they are comparing.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I posted about the use of sand/salt on private gravel roads and drives on this thread earlier. Since then I've purchased a few yards of straight salt so I'd have the option to use either. With the event we're supposed to get tonight - freezing rain and snow - I'll still use the sand/salt on the gravel. I think everybody is conceding that point - sand/salt mix is the better option for sparsely traveled gravel roads.


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