# Any ideas on price?



## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

Spoke with owner today and he informed me that all items located within the RED are to be plowed. Rather then make myself look bad I suggested that I get back with him after mapping and measuring the lot. Any ideas? I won't be near my computer for a couple hours so if I dont repond let me know


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

K- well I see that maybe more onformation needs to be added- let me know- just rough guesses would be great as well.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

That's a big lot
how about square footage and/or acreage?

special conditions, always people there or is it empty?

places to stack the snow? (anywhere, only certain places)

salt, no salt?

trigger?

etc

details man, details,


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

No salt as of yet- trigger 2". Lot is a trucking company so it will have trailers in the vacinity of places shown sometimes. I'm pretty sure I'm way over my head in this hwever I've got acess to other trucks (i.e. subs). Lot size is very hard to tell. one inch is 280ft. on that scaled down map. I saw the guys last year plowing the lot and they are a reputable company. I'm figuring if I say "you show me the last years invoices/invoice and I'll under bid by 15% I should do alright or am I asking for trouble. My contracts are billed in increments of 1-3, 4-6, 7+inches. I'm really sorry about sounding like a jackass but I'm used to lots a quarter this size. i can usually ball park a small job but this is more then I can truly bid and feel comfortable.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Tell the owner that i'll do it for 20% cheaper than you quoted based on 15% less than he was charged last year. Man I love being "Busy"


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

I quote somewhere between $500-$5,000.00


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## ford6.9 (Aug 17, 2006)

So heres a thought I am going to share. 

If your bidding against a reputable company then that means in your eyes there doing good work. Most likely they are going to have a little more equipment than you and maybe even a loader out there. So when your going 15% lower your really going much lower than that, They are most likely 30% more efficient than you. Therefore your price should be at least 15% higher if your going to try to make the same amount they make. And don't forget sales tax, If you don't charge it you'll end up paying it.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Oh and check this out it will help tons 

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=66279&highlight=newbie


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

If 1" equals 280' then I don't think I would tackle that with a pick up truck. I hope they guy that did it last year didn't cut 15% off the previous years price or you are really in trouble. I will never ask what it went for last year but I will ask who did it last year. Some companies I know are really cheap and some are really good, there are none that are really cheap and really good, and I hope to never be. Bid what you need not what someone else needs.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

why would you do it for less than last year

at least charge them what the other guy charged them last year

either way who cares how much last year they either did a crappy job or they are just cheap since they are looking for someone new


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

Hate to say it but if you undercut last years plow co then you are being a "lowballer" just to get an account. JMO


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## Woodland (Sep 17, 2005)

LCS Inc.;616797 said:


> I'm pretty sure I'm way over my head... I'm figuring if I say "you show me the last years invoices/invoice and I'll under bid by 15% I should do alright


This has to be the quote of the season. Hard to believe this is the "competition".


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

Just at a glance I would say you need at least two large loaders with big pushers, 2 skid steers, and 2 plow trucks. You got some big, long, wide open areas there and trucks aren't going to be too effective if you get more than an inch or two. 

Yeah, you are way over your head.

Your comment about looking at last years invoice and pricing it 15% lower makes my head explode. Don't ever, ever run a business, no matter what you do, like that. Take the time to measure it, go out there with a friggin tape measure if you have to, and figure out the time and your costs!!! Then set your price accordingly. 

The amazing thing isn't just that you would price this job based off the last guy's price, but that you would admit it here!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

i read somwhere that 50% of plowing businesses flop

so how do you know which half last years guy is give ya one good guess since the same guy isnt doing it this year


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

Wait a second- some of you are going to ridicoule me for under bidding a job huh. isnt that the name of the business. I posted a thread about a week ago about doing drives at $6 per drive in a subdivision and several people said that if fact it could make me money do it. I said HELL NO> You guys are hipocrits. forgive me Im deaf in one ear and can'tr hear out ther other. I'm not ttrying to STEAL business but actaully give the owner a fair comapraison. I said if I can't do15% I wont quate another price. I'm a business person that hates the idea of dojnng business without making money- I WNT DO IT. But, I will make $.75 on the dollar any day if it's profit. No one out herar has been curtious enough to give me a ball park idea. Each and everyone has been stuck on the fact that I underbid the REPUTABLE company. Come on if he has 5 guys working for him and 5 trucks and I have 2 guys and 2 trucjs. I'M GOING TO BE CHEAPER! LESS overhead etc. i have insurance, I have a couple trucks. i'm not a SCAB per se and I like to make money- what the big deal. I'm irrateated that this site is like this!


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh and don't forget- I am waiting to hear from more established companies before I make a quote. I'm not stupid-


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## ford6.9 (Aug 17, 2006)

If you have two trucks two guys and he has five guys and five trucks his overhead very well could be the same PER TRUCK. Which is all that matters. Insurance rates may be lower per truck do to volume and cost of insurance per account would be less as theres more accounts. 

Theres no way to give you a ballpark price without knowing your equipment? Loader with a 16' pusher vs. truck with 8' blade would be a huge difference. You have to know what your able to get per hour for your trucks and then figure how long it will take you and then thats your answer. 

Where are you stacking the snow?
How many trucks?
What size blade?
experienced drivers?

Note* Name of the game isn't go cheaper. Name of the game is rise the service quality bar and make everyone want YOUR SERVICE. I have won quite a few bids this year,at prices much much more than what the current companies were doing it for. My reasoning? They weren't charging enough to make it worth their time to provide a quality service. And the managers and owners agreed.

Not being harsh trying to help you out.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

You should walk away.
"thank you for the opportunity to bid your property, however at this time our company does not believe we can meet your needs, please try Joe at XYZ plowing who may be better suited to handle your particular needs"

You clearly aren't sized for it.
You aren't willing to put any effort into it (how big is it? I'm not measuring the # of inches around it, it's not my job)
No company would show you someone else's bid, although maybe after the bid has been won, they might.
A great big job can either make you or break you, in this instance, i think it would put you out of business.

You should walk away and do lots that you have a competitive advantage at. (and this isn't it)


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

LoneCowboy- I just spoke with the owner about 15 minutes ago- we got an inch last evening. He informed me that rather then a per push basis the other company was charging him $60 per hour per truck at three trucks per push. No I don't have three trucks however I could bid it out at $55 per truck per hour, still make another sub happy at that rate- it is a bad economy as we all know. And give it a shot. I'm not trying to be a low baller but the fact of the matter is this. At the end of the day I need to put food on the table. If the rates which around here are between $50-$65 per hour for a 4x4 need to be tightened so I can have work- then I gotta do what I gotta do. Not to mention- this is a company that I've done lawn care for the last two mows. Myself alone on a Toro Z 60: deck took me 1hr. The other compnay- same doing the snow removal was charging him $85 per mow. I think he's made enough money on this account. It's my turn.


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

1274200 sq ft= 29 ACRES- Give or take


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

LCS Inc.;617175 said:


> Wait a second- some of you are going to ridicoule me for under bidding a job huh. isnt that the name of the business. I posted a thread about a week ago about doing drives at $6 per drive in a subdivision and several people said that if fact it could make me money do it. I said HELL NO> You guys are hipocrits. forgive me Im deaf in one ear and can'tr hear out ther other. I'm not ttrying to STEAL business but actaully give the owner a fair comapraison. I said if I can't do15% I wont quate another price. I'm a business person that hates the idea of dojnng business without making money- I WNT DO IT. But, I will make $.75 on the dollar any day if it's profit. No one out herar has been curtious enough to give me a ball park idea. Each and everyone has been stuck on the fact that I underbid the REPUTABLE company. Come on if he has 5 guys working for him and 5 trucks and I have 2 guys and 2 trucjs. I'M GOING TO BE CHEAPER! LESS overhead etc. i have insurance, I have a couple trucks. i'm not a SCAB per se and I like to make money- what the big deal. I'm irrateated that this site is like this!


There is a big difference between criticizing you for blindly saying i'll cut 15% off and charging $6 per driveway IF you can make money doing it. Figure out your overhead, figure out how long you think it will take you to plow it, figure out how much equipment you would need to lease, figure out what else you are going to have to do to earn money this winter when you get canned from this job for not having enough equipment then come up with your price, ugh, this whole thread bugs the hell out of me.


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## BMWSTUD25 (Aug 21, 2008)

wow i cant believe your even thinking about this.......you obviously seem like you lack the equipment and knowledge to tackle this. Not to mention your trying to be a big time LOW BALLER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wow why dont you people understand that undercutting isnt good for you them or anybody else......they no longer have a good contract, the business usually gets inferior service and you make no money. hmmm doesnt sound very good to me. JMO but as a smaller plow contractor I love the idea of taking on those huge multi thousand dollar per push contracts but everyone has to be realistic. the reason they go for more is because it requires BIG EXPENSIVE EQUIPMENT!!!! just stop trying to under bid.

okay I feel better now xysport


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

OK- Everbody take a deap breath. I can understand everyones concerns about how I'm going about getting the job. I figure after speaking with the owner- my best bet is to use my two F250 diesel's with using a sub for the third truck. I will aslo quoate out the use of a front end loader upon it being necessary. I appreciate everyones criticism but I would have thought it to be more constructive. Oh well- par for the course I guess. I plan on subbing out for the rate in which I get the bid at- it will be on the low end. Again i appreciate everyones thoughts  AHHHHHHHH


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## Woodland (Sep 17, 2005)

LCS Inc.;617531 said:


> I'm not trying to be a low baller but the fact of the matter is this.


What you are describing is the definition of a low-baller. Your pricing is entirely based on the pricing of your competition. You don't know what your costs are nor what your intended profit goals are for the account. You're only basis for pricing is, what was the last guy doing for, I'll drop the price x amount to beat him. That my friend, is a low-baller, and if that is how you conduct business, I don't care how competent you are at the plowing aspect, your business skills will get you nowhere fast.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

LCS Inc.;617642 said:


> I plan on subbing out for the rate in which I get the bid at- it will be on the low end.


?????????????

29 acres is a lot for 3 truck especially considering that you have other work

where are you giong to get a loader?


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

I don't get out of bed for $60/hour and my equipment.
I don't know where you are in Indiana, but I don't think that most people do there either.

Let's see

$20,000/truck, $5,000/plow, last about 5 years.

That's $5000/depreciation/year (not exactly but good enough for the example)
Figure out how many hours you plow, divide that number into there. There are 2000 working hours in a year, figure winter is 1/4 of that and you don't work all the time.
250 hours is a reasonable (if high) guess. That's $20/hour

Fuel, 2-3 gallons per hour plowing, plus actually getting there, 1 acre/hour (more or less), call it 10 hours per truck, that's 30 gallons of fuel at $3/gallon, that's $10/hour or 90/10 hours

Maintenance/repairs/tires/registration/etc. Let's call it $5/hour just for grins although that's probably low.

Insurance. My insurance is about $1200/year per truck just for snow plowing. Let's divide that by the same 250 hours above. That's another $5/hour plowing.

Commercial truck insurance, this is the non-snow plowing truck insurance. It's $1500/year/truck (more or less), there's another $6/hour plowing. Although that's not really fair because you use it for summer things, so let's say $3/hour plowing, and $3/hour for mowing.

Workman's comp. It's over $1000/year/person here, again let's divide by that 250 and then again by 2. That's another $2/hour
I've got $45/hour just for running the truck.

That means IF nothing breaks, IF it actually snows, IF you get paid, you'll be making the grand total of $10/hour BEFORE taxes, health insurance, SS, food, medicare, etc, etc, etc

McDonalds pays that much.

Subs make $75+/hour out here (and way more back east where costs are even higher) and that seems reasonable.

You'll go under at $55/hour.


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm telling you $50-$65 per hourper truck is what we get Ive been doing this for three years as far a snow removal is concerned. Oh and by the way I forgot that all you big time guys started with ten trucks, five loaders, four bobcats and 25 snow blowers.


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## SteveJ (Jan 30, 2008)

LCS Inc.;617834 said:


> I'm telling you $50-$65 per hourper truck is what we get Ive been doing this for three years as far a snow removal is concerned.


I wouldn't get out of bed for that kind of hourly rate.


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

Good luck LCS
on this project. Please report back to us Mid-January and let us know how it is all working out.


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## ford6.9 (Aug 17, 2006)

Its hard to buy a loader when you don't make much more than just a salary.


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## ford6.9 (Aug 17, 2006)

LoneCowboy;617775 said:


> I don't get out of bed for $60/hour and my equipment.
> I don't know where you are in Indiana, but I don't think that most people do there either.
> 
> Let's see
> ...


I swear I typed that at one point, or something very close to it.


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## 042500hd (Oct 10, 2004)

I say bid for what you think will make you money. You know better than any of us what your abilities are. To grow you've got to take a chance sometimes. As for these guys saying they won't get out of bed for less than $75 an hour they must get a lot of sleep because there are plenty of people who are more than willing and do work for $25-$40 an hour. Maybe in your areas people are willing to pay those prices not in mine and from what I read on here not in many other places either. There are companies in Buffalo billing out loaders at $100 an hour.


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

i hear ya-50-$65 per hr in a 4x4. Loaders are different_ not that you didnt know that> Some guys will not go less then $60per hour but for me to get the job I'll have to get under that price. I've got three other guys just waiting for me to say go- they all want to help> Hey look its a hugh lot and will pay out> Good amount of straight shots. Good potential for alot of trailers being in the lots to take up space/time. The only bad thing is taht we are limited to snow placement. I'm thinking about talking them into salting in some areas. I dont know again I just might pass.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

OK if it really is 29 acres then you need to run as far from this property as you can.

That would take 3 trucks 8-10 hours for a 3" snow fall and as soon as you've had some pushes there will be no place to put the snow. 

Now if you really believe that its 29 acres and want to give it a good shot go rent a John Deere 410 with a 14' push box from Hertz equipment and that and your trucks could do it in a reasonable time (6-7hours). Make sure you get some commitment from the guy before you rent the loader

Pretty scary that all your eggs are in this one basket but if you got to eat then give it a shot


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

042500hd;618154 said:


> I say bid for what you think will make you money. You know better than any of us what your abilities are. To grow you've got to take a chance sometimes. As for these guys saying they won't get out of bed for less than $75 an hour they must get a lot of sleep because there are plenty of people who are more than willing and do work for $25-$40 an hour. Maybe in your areas people are willing to pay those prices not in mine and from what I read on here not in many other places either. There are companies in Buffalo billing out loaders at $100 an hour.


are you guys making money at those rates in them areas? doesnt matter if you have the work because if at the end of the day you make no money you wasted your time. better off finding a new occupation.
i know approx what i need to run a hour to make money. if i dont make it then i WON'T "take what i can get."
I will get lots of sleep. 
Granted i have a little more choice than some i have other income. But if you are starving for work and working that cheap you are still not making money. so your not really helping yourself.
find a job, or move to somewhere that has a job you can get. I DONT CARE WHAT YOUR MARKET AREA IS. IF YOUR NOT MAKING MONEY PLOWING THEN DONT PLOW. THERE IS NO POINT IN WORKING FOR FREE.
are you profitable at 25 dollars a hour??????????


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## LCS Inc. (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm telling you all SERIUOSLY- we here get between $55-$65 per truck. ALL DAY LONG- No more. Its been that way for several years!


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

ford6.9;618139 said:


> I swear I typed that at one point, or something very close to it.


Yeah, well, the numbers don't get any better, despite everyone wishing it were so.

apparantly no one wishes to actually learn from the hard won wisdom of others and numbers and they must go and learn it for themselves.

again

and

again

and

again.


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## 042500hd (Oct 10, 2004)

bribrius;618189 said:


> are you guys making money at those rates in them areas? doesnt matter if you have the work because if at the end of the day you make no money you wasted your time. better off finding a new occupation.
> i know approx what i need to run a hour to make money. if i dont make it then i WON'T "take what i can get."
> I will get lots of sleep.
> Granted i have a little more choice than some i have other income. But if you are starving for work and working that cheap you are still not making money. so your not really helping yourself.
> ...


No way Bri. The problem in our area like a lot of others I'm sure is everyone has a plow. While the majority of these guys just like to drive around with them on  when they are lowballed by a 'real' company and offered $25 an hour to sub these guys jump on it, then go home and show their wife they made a $100 in 4 hours never thinking $75 of that has to go back into their gas tank.  I plow well and the guy I plow for knows it last year I got $45 an hour and I'm still owed money. This year I'm doing my own accounts again. The price I give is the price they pay I'm not running a soup kitchen. The nice thing is that people who passed on my service because of price are telling the company they ultimately go with what I was asking. These guys are now thinking they are low balling and they are. Big time. I know this because my prices have been consistent since day one and I go up against the same three guys on almost every drive, their prices are steadily rising to where mine are. Hopefully next year we have a more competitive more profitable market for everyone.


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## ducatirider944 (Feb 25, 2008)

I won't tell you what to do or not to do. Trying to do 29 acres with 3 trucks is flipping nuts. By the look of the satellite pic, it isn't a Mc Donalds lot. My biggest lot is just under 20 acres, and it isn't this cut and dry, but it takes about 7-8 hours with a 2" push with 2 trucks and a skidloader with a box. All of my guys and myself have over 8-10+ yrs of experience pushing snow, so we aren't the village people with shovels pushing snow. Last year we had a storm that dumped 12-14" of snow on us. We were out for 38 hours straight making sure the lot was safe. It snowed for 22 hours of that 38, so we had it all cleaned up in just 16 hours after it stopped. My loader will move more snow than 1.5-2 trucks hands down. How can you possibly think you can do this with just three trucks? What are you going to do when you get a 8" snow? Do what you want, just curious.


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