# Results wuth First night out with Liquid only



## Mean4x4 (Feb 15, 2003)

We got our first 2 inch snowfall in SE MI tonight. We have decided to go 85% liquid and use rock salt only when necessary. We used a Salt brine with Calcium & Magnesium chloride added. The snow was wet, it was 33 degrees at the beginning and The product did not melt the snow at all. We tried different application rates, different spreads on the sprayer and had very little luck. because there was a solid 2 inches, we decided to fire up the loader and push our lots. We then sprayed after it got to pavement quickly. Our 3rd big site we arrived at ( 1:30am ) was completely frozen with a 1/4" of snow/ice at 28 degrees. We sprayed the entire lot and literally watched it turn to water, surprisingly like or better than rock salt. all in all, I realized liquid will NOT replace rock salt, however its a great tool to have. I also look forward to attempting a pre-treat, because I might have been able to avoid this entire situation had I pre-treated. FYI: another company salted HEAVY the lots next to us, and had terrible results with rock salt. I am wondering could it be the moisture content, combined with higher ground temp? We had 1 inch of rain yesterday at 39 degrees....Any input guys?


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

good, i am glad to hear it worked......but no, it wont burn 2" of snow lol

if you would have pretreated, it still would not have burnt 2" of snow, 

if youre trying to do what i think you are,.....you may think about pre-wetting youre salt, it'll have the bulk/mass to dilute that much water and will work fast 'cause of the liquid......5-10 gal/ton should do it

what do you mean by the other company had bad result's with salt only?

pj


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What rate were you using to burn off 2"? 

Is the liquid you used something you brewed or bought from someone else?

I'm sure it did melt the snow, somewhat, it had to, but just not enough to be noticeable. 

But to answer your question, yes, the moisture content probably had much to do with it not working as well as you hoped.


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## Mean4x4 (Feb 15, 2003)

*results*

Hard to tell our application rate, I think it averaged around 50 gallons per acre. This mix is 28% calcium 4% Magnesium ( from what im told ). And yes it did melt some of the snow ( probably 3/4". Does liquid work its way from the bottom up? FYI: we have been allocated a certain amount of salt this year and it has to go to two specific accounts that are large, paying top dollar and are high priority. The guy who makes this product stated the moisture content was a major player in the effectiveness of this product. He said this one of the few products that actually work a little better when its colder and dryer. Not sure, like I said this is a learning process for us. The company that used rock salt last night, threw I'd guess 7 tons on a 3 ton drop and it looked 1/2 melted then completely re-froze at 1:00am. So now he's double applying to open everything for the morning. How much melt off can I expect on a pre treat?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hard to give a definite answer if you don't know your rate.

3/4" is a lot different than nothing at all as stated in your first post. 

Yes, all de-icers work from the bottom up, that is why anti-icing works so well. 

How much melt? Depends on your application rate, the type of snow, UV rays, traffic, etc.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mean4x4;638965 said:


> We got our first 2 inch snowfall in SE MI tonight. We have decided to go 85% liquid and use rock salt only when necessary. We used a Salt brine with Calcium & Magnesium chloride added. The snow was wet, it was 33 degrees at the beginning and The product did not melt the snow at all. We tried different application rates, different spreads on the sprayer and had very little luck. because there was a solid 2 inches, we decided to fire up the loader and push our lots. We then sprayed after it got to pavement quickly. Our 3rd big site we arrived at ( 1:30am ) was completely frozen with a 1/4" of snow/ice at 28 degrees. We sprayed the entire lot and literally watched it turn to water, surprisingly like or better than rock salt. all in all, I realized liquid will NOT replace rock salt, however its a great tool to have. I also look forward to attempting a pre-treat, because I might have been able to avoid this entire situation had I pre-treated. FYI: another company salted HEAVY the lots next to us, and had terrible results with rock salt. I am wondering could it be the moisture content, combined with higher ground temp? We had 1 inch of rain yesterday at 39 degrees....Any input guys?


Seriously, how would you have pre treated given the scenario of yesterday? Seems to me very difficult to do (many times) to utilize it's effectiveness.


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## hickslawns (Dec 18, 2004)

Kinda hard to knock the lot next to yours unless you are taking care of it too. Some managers want it salted, then they close, then you end up salting again prior to open, etc. Every situation is so much different. I would say you are on the right track and rolling. As with anything new, there will be a learning curve. You might be in front of the curve and your competition a bit. Good luck, and I hope it works out well for you. I don't think it will do much on the rain changing to snow events, but hopefully it will reduce your rock salt consumption.


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## White Baron (Jan 23, 2006)

What product are you using for liquid. I also have switched to mostly liquid this year. I am using Sulli Hot Brine.


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

Mean4x4;639221 said:


> Hard to tell our application rate, I think it averaged around 50 gallons per acre. This mix is 28% calcium 4% Magnesium ( from what im told ).
> 
> that's enough % but as long as it's dry....
> 
> ...


why did you not plow? was it a time thing or was you just trying to push the limits of the chamicle?

pj


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## GreenAcresFert (Sep 28, 2007)

Mean4x4;638965 said:


> We got our first 2 inch snowfall in SE MI tonight. We have decided to go 85% liquid and use rock salt only when necessary. We used a Salt brine with Calcium & Magnesium chloride added. The snow was wet, it was 33 degrees at the beginning and The product did not melt the snow at all. We tried different application rates, different spreads on the sprayer and had very little luck. because there was a solid 2 inches, we decided to fire up the loader and push our lots. We then sprayed after it got to pavement quickly. HOW DID THIS WORK OUT? Our 3rd big site we arrived at ( 1:30am ) was completely frozen with a 1/4" of snow/ice at 28 degrees. We sprayed the entire lot and literally watched it turn to water, surprisingly like or better than rock salt. all in all, I realized liquid will NOT replace rock salt, however its a great tool to have. I also look forward to attempting a pre-treat, because I might have been able to avoid this entire situation had I pre-treated. FYI: another company salted HEAVY the lots next to us, and had terrible results with rock salt. I am wondering could it be the moisture content, combined with higher ground temp? We had 1 inch of rain yesterday at 39 degrees....Any input guys?


My plan with going mostly all liquid is to plow anything over an inch and then spray so I'm very curious to how that worked out. Good info though, also from SE MI


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

yeah I was thinking plow the 2" then spray and that would help anything else that came down over the next couple inches. But thats just me thinking not that ive used the stuff.


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## Mean4x4 (Feb 15, 2003)

We did plow. We used our loader and cleared the lots. This was a sunday night at a lot of retail. So this was a GREAT time to experiment. I am not bashing the guy using rock salt by any means.. I was just making the point that he was not successful either. *Plowing then spraying worked VERY well*. I am confident that with more trial and error and the use of the right liquid product, this product can supplement rock salt 90% of the time. And yes you're correct on the pre-treat in those conditions, that's why we hesitated. And I feel that we made the right call. As far as melting black ice, the product responded very quick and worked 100%. I know a lot of southeast Michigan guys are switching to liquid products this year, so lets keep this post active and hopefully with input from everyone, we can come to some conclusions and advise each other on effective and non effective methods.


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## GreenAcresFert (Sep 28, 2007)

Cool man, thats good to hear.....I plan on doing alot more plowing this year instead of being able to burn off an inch or two with rock salt. I've been a little on the stressed side going to liquid, wondering how well its going to work...good to hear from somebody in the area with good results. I'll also keep up on this thread when I start spraying.


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## SuperBlade (Aug 27, 2008)

at about a half in inch 100% salt brine melted my walks and lots...I apply at 100 gallons an acre...you want pictures...just one second


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## SuperBlade (Aug 27, 2008)

ok well i dont know how to attach images yet but i put up pictures on my profile...ill take a video and put it on youtube after i get done taking a business law exam


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

What type of liquid were you using?


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## SuperBlade (Aug 27, 2008)

ok round two was good. temp was 18F applied 100% salt brine to lots @ 100gals a mile. light dusting w/ ice underneath. spray lines melted by time i came around again for opposite lane. little bit smoother tonight but noticed a problem! bottom amounts of brine turned to a sand and cloged my control valve(its only 3/4in coming in, 3/4 by-pass going back into tank, and 1/2in leading to spray bar). im thinking that i should agatate so the settlement stay mixed.


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

Powerjoke..question for you.
You stated in your post that prewetting the salt with the liquid calcium works, which I understand. What technique are you using? Are you spraying at the spinner, or are you spraying the whole load while it is on the truck?

Thanks for the help.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SuperBlade;641711 said:


> ok round two was good. temp was 18F applied 100% salt brine to lots @ 100gals a mile. light dusting w/ ice underneath. spray lines melted by time i came around again for opposite lane. little bit smoother tonight but noticed a problem! bottom amounts of brine turned to a sand and cloged my control valve(its only 3/4in coming in, 3/4 by-pass going back into tank, and 1/2in leading to spray bar). im thinking that i should agatate so the settlement stay mixed.


Have used 2 different liquids?

We've had this issue when mixing or not cleaning a tank thoroughly from Caliber M1000 to NC2000 or 3000.

I really wouldn't think there would be any settling in salt brine, but maybe?


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

SuperBlade;641711 said:


> ok round two was good. temp was 18F applied 100% salt brine


100%  how are you measureing ......do you mean 100% salinity?



kimber;641754 said:


> Powerjoke..question for you.
> You stated in your post that prewetting the salt with the liquid calcium works, which I understand. What technique are you using? Are you spraying at the spinner, or are you spraying the whole load while it is on the truck?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


spraying it as it falls off the auger/chain work's well but damp intreated salt will still freeze in the bin, that's why i spray it as it comes out off end dump, we'll dump a little and spread it into the bin and spray it and do it again, and again and again lol

but i have one spreader that i set up for pre-wet and i'll use it this year just to cut back even more on salt....that'll give me about 15 gallon/ton of 32% liquid,

here's a pic

PJ


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## SuperBlade (Aug 27, 2008)

no i used just salt brine to deice and nothing else....it a little under 23.3% b/c i just put 5 #80 bags of salt into 200 gallons of water but it wasnt that cold out<----------that's for powerjoke

Mark--------------->check out my album i have 2 pics on there of the inside of my 275 tank w/ rock salt settlement its like a gritty sand consistancy


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

powerjoke;642859 said:


> 100%  how are you measureing ......do you mean 100% salinity?
> 
> spraying it as it falls off the auger/chain work's well but damp intreated salt will still freeze in the bin, that's why i spray it as it comes out off end dump, we'll dump a little and spread it into the bin and spray it and do it again, and again and again lol
> 
> ...


May sound silly, but how well does it come out of the spreader once the salt is prewetted?


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

SuperBlade;642994 said:


> no i used just salt brine to deice and nothing else....it a little under 23.3% b/c i just put 5 #80 bags of salt into 200 gallons of water but it wasnt that cold out<----------that's for powerjoke
> 
> Mark--------------->check out my album i have 2 pics on there of the inside of my 275 tank w/ rock salt settlement its like a gritty sand consistancy


I have liquid chloride available. I may be down in that area soon. I spoke with Bill Jeffries Jr. from Joseph Jeffries Company. Let me know if you want info on my product. thank


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

SuperBlade;641711 said:


> ok round two was good. temp was 18F applied 100% salt brine to lots @ 100gals a mile. light dusting w/ ice underneath. spray lines melted by time i came around again for opposite lane. little bit smoother tonight but noticed a problem! bottom amounts of brine turned to a sand and cloged my control valve(its only 3/4in coming in, 3/4 by-pass going back into tank, and 1/2in leading to spray bar). im thinking that i should agatate so the settlement stay mixed.


My product is natural, and won't settle out at all.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

powerjoke;642859 said:


> 100%  how are you measureing ......do you mean 100% salinity?
> 
> Wouldn't that be a solid chunk of salt? pumpkin:
> 
> PJ





SuperBlade;642994 said:


> no i used just salt brine to deice and nothing else....it a little under 23.3% b/c i just put 5 #80 bags of salt into 200 gallons of water but it wasnt that cold out<----------that's for powerjoke
> 
> Mark--------------->check out my album i have 2 pics on there of the inside of my 275 tank w/ rock salt settlement its like a gritty sand consistancy


Looked at the pics, looks like a combination of sand\gravel and salt. Maybe you didn't get your salt in good suspension?

I'm not an expert, not claiming to be as the only brine I've ever made has been on the lots after I've applied salt to them. Just what it looks like to me.



kimber;643082 said:


> I have liquid chloride available.


Just an FYI, if you're selling the stuff, you need to get your terminology straight. Even if you're applying it and want to sound half-way like you know what you're talking about to your customers, you need to get your terminology straight.

Liquid chloride is what?

Sodium chloride?

Magnesium chloride?

Calcium chloride?

These all come in liquid and solids, so you need to give a whole lot more info than that.

Same with the 100% brine comment, what the heck is that? I'm no chemist, but I think that 100% brine is impossible. You need water to make brine, so you can't have a 100% brine mixture. See below:

brine
   /braɪn/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [brahyn] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, brined, brin⋅ing.
-noun
1. water saturated or strongly impregnated with salt.
2. a salt and water solution for pickling.
3. the sea or ocean.
4. the water of the sea.
5. Chemistry. any saline solution.
-verb (used with object)
6. to treat with or steep in brine.

From dictionary.com

Mineral brine, well brine, brine are all extremely generic terms that can contain any combination of mag, calcium or sodium chloride. And when you look at the definition, they all refer to sodium chloride and water, so if you wanted to get technical, mag and calcium would not fit the definition.

As for being all natural and not settling, what the heck does that mean? Are you telling me that the beet juice I get isn't natural so it shouldn't settle? Natural or man-made has absolutely ZERO to do with settling. Caliber M1000 is a laboratory combination that doesn't settle, so like I said, natural means nothing.

And while this is probably getting technical, but I'm a strict believer in the fact that words mean things, everything is natural. Plastic is natural. Steel trucks are natural, chemical fertilizers are natural, snow is natural, water is natural, salt is natural, salt brine--i.e. the ocean--is natural. Everything is natural because one of the laws of physics is you can't create something out of nothing. Only God can do that.

So what you are probably trying to say is that your liquid de-icer that contains a chloride is naturally occurring, not natural.

Thanks for listening to my rant, just trying to lower the level of ignorance in the snow industry.


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

Wow, thanks for allll that information. Yes, it is naturally occuring. And thanks for Websters version. I call it liquid chloride, because it contains calcium, magnesium and sodium chloride combined in once solution.


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## SuperBlade (Aug 27, 2008)

kimber could you please sent me some prices. 

mark i fixed the settlement with the new batch by putting the hose in and then dumping the salt on top which like you said allowed it to mix better. also rock salt is very dirty!!! my shippment of pure salt( i lied 99.0-99.9%) is coming in a couple of days so i wont have that problem any more. also put adjustable heavy duty fan/stream/flood nozzles on and switched my control valve so that the 3/4" is flowing to nozzles and the 1/2" is for the recirculating right before ball valve


now here is the next problem...my engine/pump is getting too cold and making it hard to start...yes its a pull start..i dont have big money so i brought it inside tonight to warm it up before i go out...my gf cant stand the gas fumes...lol...(it's not that bad)...any ideas to keep my engine warm outside?


oh new pics of sprayer


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## Mean4x4 (Feb 15, 2003)

*Round 2*

We recieved a light dusting that instantly froze and iced up all roads and parking lots. We pre-treated 85% of our lots and were VERY pleased with the results. I took pictures of this one. Pre treatment was wet black pavement. Everything else was snow covered & iced over. We then went to our untreated lots, where it took roughly 70 gallons / acre to de-ice them. Its 3:00am. I have my fingers crossed by 6:00am everything will be 100% melted. For de-icing do you guys recommend the fan spray or the jet spray? So far, if we were paying 110/ton for salt, we have saved over 8000.00 for these past 2 snowfalls by switching to liquid. Hopefully this investment pays off for the remainder of the season. The product we're using is a mineral well brine that is distilled & filtered. Roughly 26% calcium ( I specifically asked supplier tonight when he was re-filling ).


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## SuperBlade (Aug 27, 2008)

first and second runs was with 8 ft spray bar w/ holes drilled in it to make solid streams....put tonight/today i get to try my new nozzles!


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Mean4x4;644297 said:


> We recieved a light dusting that instantly froze and iced up all roads and parking lots. We pre-treated 85% of our lots and were VERY pleased with the results. I took pictures of this one. Pre treatment was wet black pavement. Everything else was snow covered & iced over. We then went to our untreated lots, where it took roughly 70 gallons / acre to de-ice them. Its 3:00am. I have my fingers crossed by 6:00am everything will be 100% melted. For de-icing do you guys recommend the fan spray or the jet spray? So far, if we were paying 110/ton for salt, we have saved over 8000.00 for these past 2 snowfalls by switching to liquid. Hopefully this investment pays off for the remainder of the season. The product we're using is a mineral well brine that is distilled & filtered. Roughly 26% calcium ( I specifically asked supplier tonight when he was re-filling ).


70 gallons per acre! thats intersting because all the suppliers were saying about 40-50 gallons per acre. In the field is always different than what suppliers say. Would you say it was the right amount or were you a little heavy on the product.

Thanks for the update, this is good info


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## SuperBlade (Aug 27, 2008)

ROUND 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Worked great! 100gal an acre within a 1/2hr my lots were slush. never got out of the truck. didnt have to load salt bags. refilled my tank in 15mins. it was snowing pretty good. my one lot was all ice with 1/4-1/2" snow covering. temp here was at 24F. when out @ 4 by 6-6:30 lots were wet! I used straight brine way under 23.3%. the batch I made two days ago was 15 #80lb bags of rocksalt and 600gals of water so the weight ratio had to be under and still worked! another lot across town had fluffy snow around 1" and was still coming down. I flooded the lot (maybe a little bit more than 100gals/acre) and was slush in under a minute. nozzles worked great, but i dont think i like to fan when there is ice underneath the snow....just didnt seem to work as well as a little bit stronger stream, but not a straight stream. umm wat else.....no control valve clogs through the night. lots with hill i ran over twice and noproblems refreezing or icing up. would have took pictures but the camera batteries were dead...sorry guys. but here after i get some sleep ill deice my apartment building a make a video! 

keep up the good work guys with the liquids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mean4x4 (Feb 15, 2003)

*pre treatment*

For pre treatment, the product goes a lot further. But for de-icing 70+ gallons/ acre is a safe bet for me. At least for the product we were using. We'll wait and see on the next storm.


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

kimber;643036 said:


> May sound silly, but how well does it come out of the spreader once the salt is prewetted?
> it comes out fine....why wouldnt it





Mean4x4;644297 said:


> For de-icing do you guys recommend the fan spray or the jet spray?
> 
> de-ice, you could use over 100gal/acre if condition's werent right,........but de-ice the stream would be the better choice





SuperBlade;644441 said:


> was 15 #80lb bags of rocksalt and 600gals of water so the weight ratio had to be under and still worked!
> 
> actually.....off the top of my head youre % was a lil over 30% witch is great.......especially byt the time it got diluted with a little bit of snow. :salute:
> 
> just for expiroment.....weigh a gal in a milk jug and report back lol......i bet it weighs 'bout 11.25lbs gal


MEAN4X4: it wouldnt surprise me if you could get by with a hell of a lot less on a pre-ice app........it's kinda like insurance you have to buy/use it before you need it 

.PJ


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

I am no expert but if the snow is real wet than wouldn't the extra water dilute the mix, this is why dryer snow would work better.


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## Mike S (Feb 11, 2007)

kimber;643083 said:


> My product is natural, and won't settle out at all.


You better research chlorides a little more before you say that!


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## Mike S (Feb 11, 2007)

Mean4x4;638965 said:


> will NOT replace rock salt, however its a great tool to have


I think some body in apple bees said that.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Ok when you guys start comparing things you really need to compare on an equal playing feild. On the farm we call them test plots. If you really want to see how liquids compare to salt you must compare in the same parking lot, as in do half with liquid and the other half with salt or on a big parking lot maybe prewetted salt, straight salt and liquid. You have to know your rates also because without them you know nothing. JMO


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;646842 said:


> Ok when you guys start comparing things you really need to compare on an equal playing feild. On the farm we call them test plots. If you really want to see how liquids compare to salt you must compare in the same parking lot, as in do half with liquid and the other half with salt or on a big parking lot maybe prewetted salt, straight salt and liquid. You have to know your rates also because without them you know nothing. JMO


Come on Dave, just dumping 20,000 gallons of 'brine' on an acre doesn't show that it works better than 20# of granular?


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Mean4x4;644297 said:


> We recieved a light dusting that instantly froze and iced up all roads and parking lots. We pre-treated 85% of our lots and were VERY pleased with the results. I took pictures of this one. Pre treatment was wet black pavement. Everything else was snow covered & iced over. We then went to our untreated lots, where it took roughly 70 gallons / acre to de-ice them. Its 3:00am. I have my fingers crossed by 6:00am everything will be 100% melted. For de-icing do you guys recommend the fan spray or the jet spray? So far, if we were paying 110/ton for salt, we have saved over 8000.00 for these past 2 snowfalls by switching to liquid. Hopefully this investment pays off for the remainder of the season. The product we're using is a mineral well brine that is distilled & filtered. Roughly 26% calcium ( I specifically asked supplier tonight when he was re-filling ).


First off thanks for taking the time to share your experience. These is the type of information that truly makes a forum like this worthwhile.

Now, when you offer an example of $8,000.00 in savaings I would have to ask what exactly is the forumula you used to get to this number?

I find it interetesting when the supplies tell me you could do the same with a 45-50Gal per acre of liquid that you can do with 1 ton of salt. This is why: Anyone that has been in the ice management business of more then one season knows the eccectiveness of bulk salt by the ton is truly UNMEASURABLE. Again WHY: the volume of salt you get based on weight changes over the winter mainly being effected by moisture content which can be controlled somewhat only but keeping it inside a totoaly enclosded building, However that changes once you take that load outside by how long it is in the truck and what the climate condtions are, secondly you have to contend with Air temp vs. Ground temps, condition before, during and after the snow fall, (rain,sleet, frozen rain, snow, thunder snow)and so on.

So I too as with most others in the business for the first time considering how to reduce my cost for Ice Manangement as the market just is not going to withstand the increases in material while sustaining the profit margins seen over past seasons.

You seem to be keeping good records so I am sure you have some data to support such a savings and if there is away I can prove this out I will be looking for some Liquid Spreading Equipment real quick considering nearly 70% of the snowfalls in this market are 1"-3" and people in the Chicago land area have be trained to think there should be black and wet pavement within hours of the end of ANY snowfall. My thought are Liquid might be the way to make Clients happy and if the cost is right I might not even tell them and just start doing it. Really all they care about is wet and balck pavement and if can do it for less on my end good for my balance sheet.

TIA

Ron G.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

JD Dave;646842 said:


> Ok when you guys start comparing things you really need to compare on an equal playing feild. On the farm we call them test plots. If you really want to see how liquids compare to salt you must compare in the same parking lot, as in do half with liquid and the other half with salt or on a big parking lot maybe prewetted salt, straight salt and liquid. You have to know your rates also because without them you know nothing. JMO


DITTO, this is what I did when I switched from Western plows to Blizzard Power Plows. I plowed the same lots in size and lay out during the same event. On the other lots wher I was just using the Blizzard plow I looked at the previous season production/labor rates. Based on that data I was able to seeking out additional accounts and increase my over all work output by 30% per truck equiped with Blizzard Power Plows.

So I am looking for the same type of data. We salted a 1 acre lot and used Xlbs of salt (it took X to load the truck X to spread the salt), and we treated a 1 acre lot across the street and used Xgals of liquid (it took X to fill the tank and X to spray). Same time, same conditions this was the result. That would be a true measurement. ( I understand we are not all set up to do this but I have already started looking into a liquid set up for one truck to do exactly this study just not sure I can justify the investment for somethign that mught just be a study. yet!)

We have all seen the picture the supplier shows us where the walk is wet and black and then you see snow covered walk and they tell you, the wet and balck is liquid the snow covered is salt which do you want your customer to have. However, one thing for sure most useing liquid have alreadly stated is the real number is more like 100Gal per acre NOT 45-50. So that doubles the cost from the get go.

Ron G.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

ok i have a question, 100 gal per acre? what ever happened to treating with 30 gal per acre? and 50 on a bad storm? im sure 100 does the job , but its cost effectiveness is limited at those app rates? so how about trying it with 35-40?


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

elite1msmith;647109 said:


> ok i have a question, 100 gal per acre? what ever happened to treating with 30 gal per acre? and 50 on a bad storm? im sure 100 does the job , but its cost effectiveness is limited at those app rates? so how about trying it with 35-40?


So is 30gal per acre and 50gal per acre during a heavy storm the rate you are using in the Chicago market to be effective?

What about re-treat during the event when you have a residual base down?

Do you ever obtain a residual base or does it have a higher dilusion rate than salt?

What about treating ice from melting snow piles?? Does is just wash right down the3 ice slick into the drain or stand on target like salt does?

What about a season like last winter when we saw all the ice in Dec. 07? What rates were you using and did you use salt??

TIA 
Ron G.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Not that i would want to use 100 gallons per acre. But if i did it would still only cost $20.00 to treat it. I base salt on about 2 acres per ton so im still at the equivalent of $40..00 of liquid to cover the same area as a ton of salt. I can get salt in the $100-$120 price range so im still way ahead


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## SuperBlade (Aug 27, 2008)

i dont use anything but liquid!!!.....no rock salt what so ever! all liquid...i dont prewett my lots


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

SuperBlade;647553 said:


> i dont use anything but liquid!!!.....no rock salt what so ever! all liquid...i dont prewett my lots


So how many acres of snow do you have anf how long have you been using liquid only?


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## Mean4x4 (Feb 15, 2003)

One thing I've learned is this: The people selling liquid are undercutting the true amount needed for the product to be effective. I am still learning exactly how much to apply.


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

I have heard this else where............................................... HMMMMMM


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

4evergreenlawns;647131 said:


> So is 30gal per acre and 50gal per acre during a heavy storm the rate you are using in the Chicago market to be effective?
> 
> What about re-treat during the event when you have a residual base down?
> 
> ...


to answer your questions, this will be mt first year using liquids in a regualr form , it has yet to snow or ice here so i have no idea its effectiveness, that why i am asking

i did in the past pretreat bulk rock salt using 32 percent calcuim , simply by dumping approx 8-10 per ton , in the hopper of the V box. I saw a savings with it, and saw its place as another tool to use. I set up a pre-wet system , and a spray bar system , But both have yet to be used

so thats the reason for my question.... i wasnt being a smart ass, just asking how come all summer these guys post 30-40 gal per acre...and now we are appling at 100?


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Elite1,

I was not tyring to make it sound like you were being an ass I was HONESTLY asking what result have you seen. 

I service the NW burbs and I know that I can see from salt alone. Well looks like a wet morning for us maybe our 1st salting event. 

Best, Ron G.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

im hoping not on that first event


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SuperBlade;647553 said:


> i dont use anything but liquid!!!.....no rock salt what so ever! all liquid...i dont prewett my lots


Interesting. You don't prewett your lots? You most certainly do if you are using liquids. 

OK, shall we play the technical terminology game again?

Prewetting--this refers to treating salt or sand with a liquid of some sort to increase its effectiveness when coming off the spreader.

Anti-icing--this is what most of you are doing when you say you are pre-treating, which is really a misnomer, because how can you pretreat something? It's sort of like pre-plowing, it can't be done in essence.

Maybe I'm just being anal, but once again I think to sound like we have a clue to our customers we should be using the proper terminology.


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

Clapper&Company;647985 said:


> I have heard this else where............................................... HMMMMMM


Hey Clapper, I'd like to talk to you.


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## JeffNY (Dec 19, 2005)

did I miss pictures of this liquid system somewhere?


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## hardscaper (Oct 15, 2002)

Mark Oomkes;648247 said:


> Interesting. You don't prewett your lots? You most certainly do if you are using liquids.
> 
> OK, shall we play the technical terminology game again?
> 
> ...


Municipalities have been pre treating roads for over 20 years with liquid brine? are you confused or just misinformed?
http://www.bceo.org/snowice.html#brine


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

hardscaper;654281 said:


> Municipalities have been pre treating roads for over 20 years with liquid brine? are you confused or just misinformed?


only thre last 4 yrs around here


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## hardscaper (Oct 15, 2002)

here's a couple more links on liquid road use, the oldest research papers I have seen are from 1987.
http://www.turf.msu.edu/docs/74th_Conference/Cornwell_Lawn_Salt.pdf
http://www.maine.gov/mdot/technical-publications/pdf/snowicebrochureall1b.pdf

http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/8ef02c0fded0c82a85256e590071a3ce/ABC1F228AAAD398B852573CD0070B297/$file/Resource_Sheet4.pdf?openelement
http://epg.modot.org/index.php?title=133.5_Operator’s_Guide_for_Anti-Icing
http://environment.transportation.org/documents/nchrp25_25_files/nchrp_chapter_8.htm


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

JeffNY;650271 said:


> did I miss pictures of this liquid system somewhere?


i believe they are on his profile page?


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;648247 said:


> ...
> Anti-icing--this is what most of you are doing when you say you are pre-treating, which is really a misnomer, because how can you pretreat something?. ....


from the course i went to a couple years ago the rep explained that if you spray the lot up to a week before the storm, the liquid will soak into the cracks and wait for the snow so to speak, as long as it does not rain in the mean time when the snow fly's the "pre-treated" (anti-iced) lot will reactivate and do its job.

this was for a product by swp environmental, not a salt brine.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

*look at my post its #4*

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=36441

found some good old info that is useful to this thread, scroll down to post#4


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

hardscaper;654281 said:


> Municipalities have been pre treating roads for over 20 years with liquid brine? are you confused or just misinformed?
> http://www.bceo.org/snowice.html#brine


Not totally sure what you are asking me, but no I am not misinformed or confused. If you read what I posted, the technical term is anti-icing, not pretreating. Like I said, maybe it's just semantics, but that is the correct terminology.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/reports/mopeap/eapcov.htm

http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/weather/bes...e=publications.xml&keyname=Anti-icing/deicing

You should probably read a little more of the links you post as well, they also state that sodium and calcium are essentially the same thing, which is far from the truth, as calcium generates its own heat and sodium needs moisture to form heat.

If you think I am wrong about using brine, Ottawa County, MI used brine on their trucks 20+ years ago.


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## SuperBlade (Aug 27, 2008)

there are different ways to do things....liquids are still really new....you could spray the salt as it comes out. or wett the pavement before you put the salt down> both you could consider prewetting.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SuperBlade;654442 said:


> there are different ways to do things....liquids are still really new....you could spray the salt as it comes out. or wett the pavement before you put the salt down> both you could consider prewetting.


You're not helping your cause.

Liquids are NOT new. Every time you applied salt in the past, you melted the snow\ice with liquids.

Try rereading my post a second or third or fourth time.


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

SuperBlade;654442 said:


> there are different ways to do things...*.liquids are still really new....*you could spray the salt as it comes out. or wett the pavement before you put the salt down> both you could consider prewetting.


They are not new, they been around for years.

Spraying salt as it comes out would be pre-wetting

Wett the Pavement would be pre-treat

They are not the same, each has its own job to do.
IMO if you were to wet the pavement then put salt on top of that, you either have to much money, a salt mine, or you were drop on you head and your common sence spatt all over the ground.


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## L70 (Dec 6, 2007)

THat's funny


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

L70;654710 said:


> THat's funny


Whats funny?


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## L70 (Dec 6, 2007)

IMO if you were to wet the pavement then put salt on top of that, you either have to much money, a salt mine, or you were drop on you head and your common sence spatt all over the ground

Thats funny
I know contractors that do


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## L70 (Dec 6, 2007)

were can you buy those nozzles for the spay bars???
Thanks


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## hardscaper (Oct 15, 2002)

www.precisionindustrieslt.com


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## L70 (Dec 6, 2007)

were would you buy a salinity meter, like a cheap one?
Thanks for the web site, I'm calling them.
That link doesn't work tho
Thanks


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## plownoob (Aug 14, 2008)

try

www.precisionindustriesltd.com


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