# Do not compete contract



## ThePlowKing (Oct 22, 2004)

Hey,
I was wondering if anyone out there makes their subcontractors sign "do not comptete" contracts. I want to start having both my employees and subcontractors sign a contract preventing them from bidding against me with my current clients. This industury is cut throat enough, I don't need my own guys goin behind me back and takin work from me.

Thanks for the help
Brian


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## CARDOCTOR (Nov 29, 2002)

the co. i sub for has one . 2yrs no compete

john


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## jcesar (Sep 14, 2006)

I have 2 guys that work for me with my trucks. They have their own, but I prefer to use mine. Liability issues. Anyways, I make them sign a noncompete clause for 2 years. Cant bid on my jobs, or work directly for anyone i sub for .Hope this helps


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## Big Dog D (Oct 1, 2005)

My question would be are they even enforceable ????


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## Keith_480231 (Jul 13, 2004)

Would be interested in seeing one if someone could send one to me at [email protected]. I am curious to see if they are enforceable also?


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## jcesar (Sep 14, 2006)

The state of Michigan has a law for these things. It says, that a verbal contract if proven will stand up in court. Any contract that is signed, dated and notarized is a legal binding document.


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## millsaps118 (Aug 13, 2006)

I know what the law is on this in MN just because I went through it with this guy I use to sub work to. I won't go into details on how a "NON-COMPETE" clause really works cuz I might pizz off a lot of people who know the law on this. I will say it does vary from state to state, and if you find the right answer you might be real surprised! I know I was.:angry: :angry:


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Translation: It's still the USA last I checked and Non Compete clauses are useless, unenforceable, and a waste of a sheet of paper.

Trying to stop someone from free enterprise is nearly impossible,as it should be, and un american if you ask me.


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## bigjeeping (Aug 15, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Translation: It's still the USA last I checked and Non Compete clauses are useless, unenforceable, and a waste of a sheet of paper.
> 
> Trying to stop someone from free enterprise is nearly impossible,as it should be, and un american if you ask me.


Thank God for Free enterprise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

It's a risk of teaching someone your craft and inviting them into your house. Kindof like a marriage. Everyone brings something to the table and everyone walks away with something.

Its not always fair and I see the "intent" of the theory and Im sure in some circles it may be enforceable, but I dare say weve all walked away with a contact, some networked people, some ideas, and a starting point.

Im not advocating stealing work from close associates but we all started somewhere.


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## Gicon (Oct 1, 2005)

2 Year Non-Compete, 35 Mile Radius, Cannot work for, advise, or start your own company.


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

I had a conversation with our lawyer about this subject and according to him the law (around here) gives the judge a wide interpretation of what’s fair and what’s not as far restrictions go.
He told me you really have to watch it when it comes to making them too broad and far reaching. He said you can't tell an employee that they can't open/or compete against a business within two or three miles of yours if there are three or four others providing the same service all within the same distance to your business. You can't tell an employee that they can't open a landscaping business within so many miles of your location if you have three or four landscaping companies in the same area. Competition already exists so get over it.
You can't make it for a long period of time. Two years is pretty much the most you can hope to make enforceable around here.
How enforceable it is probably also depends on how much money you want to spend. The bigger companies that use them also have plenty of lawyers, so going to court might mean that what they really want is not the contract or to keep the person from working for another company, but just compensation. I first heard about non coms when I was dating a secretary for a healthcare company and she told me that when ever an exec would leave they would tell them if they gave up their compensation or buyout package they could be free to work for anyone in the healthcare industry or they could wait six months or a year.
I also haven’t heard of anyone enforcing them for snowplowing but it probably has been done on the larger projects where the money is really big? Hope this helps.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Gicon said:


> 2 Year Non-Compete, 35 Mile Radius, Cannot work for, advise, or start your own company.


lol........


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## ThePlowKing (Oct 22, 2004)

Does anyone know where i can find a do not compete contract anywhere, or does everyone pretty much make up their own and go over em with their lawyers? 

On a side note, i believe in free enterprise just as much as any other hard working american, the problem I am having that has raised the issue of the do not compete contract is for the last 3 years i have been subcontracting work to a guy who has helped me with supplimental plowing when needed, now he's going to my customers and bidding against me because the properties he has helped me with are the only one's he konws and is comfortable with. He is also using me as a reference without my permission and telling my customers he is a "business partner." Personally, if this guy wanted to go for other contracts i'd even be willing to help him out to bid them properly so he could get them and not end up as just another lowball hack, but he's trying to take my work right out from under me and trying to do so by lying. I think is quite unprofessional and unbusinessman like.

Thanks for the help everyone

Brian


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Brian, what makes you think he'd sign a noncompete contract now? The time to have them sign is when you first hire them. The other thing is - you have to decide if it's worth pursuing even if you do have a noncompete contract. If someone did violate it, you'd have to give them an opportunity to cease and desist. Then if they didn't stop, you'd have to file and take them to court. Maybe you'd win, but what would you win? It would cost you money, time and aggravation with no certainty that the judge would back you. Then, you'd have to somehow enforce the award you MIGHT get. And that may be years after you start action.

Also follow up on some of the suggestions above about being enforceable and pay attention to what JD Plower wrote.

Personally, I wouldn't waste my time with a noncompete.


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC (Dec 13, 2002)

Yeah ive got a lifetime no compete cluase....his name is Brunno, my dad used to know him back in the 70's....he will put anyone 8 feet under for only 99.95


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

Five Star Lawn Care LLC said:


> Yeah ive got a lifetime no compete cluase....his name is Brunno, my dad used to know him back in the 70's....he will put anyone 8 feet under for only 99.95


Brunno's clause has been overwritten by the Smith and Wesson clause.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

I have subed for 2 large companys here in mIchigan and they both had me sign a no compete contract for 2 years on the jobs I subbed for them. I look it as not a big deal I needed some extra work that first year, last year a friend from the owner of the 1st company told him to call me to do some jobs in my area for him. I guess my point is if you do your job right you will have work no need to steal work from a company that already has the contract. I do have a copy of that contract if anyone want it send me a email [email protected] or a PM

Regards Mike


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## ThePlowKing (Oct 22, 2004)

At this point in time there is no guarentee that he will sign a do not compete contract. However, the advantage I have right now is that the only plowing work he is getting is from me. I know he still has the opportunity to work as a subcontractor for another company or he can try to go on his own, but he lacks the equipment and manpower to handle large accounts. Long story short... if he doesn't sign the do not compete contract, i don't really care, however he'll be out the work for the winter, so it leaves him with only a few options. At least I have the satisfaction of konwing that he's not working for me and trying to steal my clients when I'm not looking. 

I am also gonna start tryin to sign the following year's contracts right after this year's plowing season has ended, at least then I don't have to worry about this nonsence.


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

i become friends with my employees and subs, if they are willing to invest the big $$$$ it takes to start a business, i will be more than willing to help them,no need to steal jobs from me, i'll give them away. why wouldn't you want to help someone better themselves. if you help them out it will only help you to network and dominate the region.


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## Eyesell (Nov 7, 2003)

Mick said:


> Then Maybe you'd win, but what would you win?
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't waste my time with a noncompete.


I agree with you Mick, I've been in sales my entire life, I have many friends who have non-compete contracts, the company I work for also tried to get me to sign one, for me I said no way cause the easiest thing to do in life is get a job with the competitor. My situation is a bit different cause I also work for a manufacture in a very competitive automotive market, I guess what I'm trying to say is, to enforce one you have to have plenty of cash, most guys here could'nt afford to fight a non-compete contract, the law states no one can keep you from making a living. If your suing a guy cause he stole a thousand dollars worth of accounts, and it takes you $ 10,000 to fight it, in the long run is it really worth it ??


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## ThePlowKing (Oct 22, 2004)

If the contract were worth one thousand dollars i wouldn't waste my time. However the contract he's tryin to steal is a $74,000 contract. If he had wanted to go out on his own I had no problem with it, I even helped him bid some other accounts and set aside a few of my trucks that would be able to help him out if he was in a jam. After throwing him substantial work for the last three years, helping him out trying to get his own stuff going, and being friends with him for the last 20 years, this is not exactly the thanks i was expecting to get.

The purpose of starting this thread was do see what everyone else in the industry is doing, do you have to sign do not comptete contracts, are they enforcable and so on. 

Thanks,
Brian


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

Brian since the account is worth that much I would do a few things first.
•	Talk to him and ask him if he wants to work for you again. If he does then just tell him flat out that a non compete will be part of the this agreement.
•	If he says no then tell him to stop using your name as reference. Then have a lawyer write him a letter saying the same thing. This step here might get this guy to back off since he may think he can be sued for this (I don’t know if he can or can’t but I’m guessing neither does he).
•	Tell your clients what’s going on and how this person is doing business. You don’t have to be nasty but make sure they know you are not endorsing him as a contractor or a person.

A contract of this size obviously is worth fighting for particularly if you keep it for the next five years you’ll be looking at 370k. Most people on here would fight for that much money.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I realize this isn't the issue you asked about, but if I understand this right, you don't have contract with this customer at this time for future work. So, the other guy isn't technically "stealing" anything, he is simply bidding against you for a potential contract. Since you don't have a current "noncompete" in place, there is no reason for him to sign one now. There would be no way to stop him from bidding against you for this job. Although asking if one can use you as a reference is a courtesy, there is no law to that effect, so there is no "cease and desist" issue to address. Simply give an honest opinion when contacted.

As far as future use of a noncompete clause, I'd suggest getting your attorney's advice on what will stand up in your state.


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## ThePlowKing (Oct 22, 2004)

At this point in the game i know there is no way to prevent him from bidding against me because the job is out to bid, I think it is more of an issue of professional courtsey. From this point on, all subcontractors and employees will have to sign a do not compete contract in order to work for me. Now i'm wondering how to enforce the contract, and better yet how is the typical do not compete contract written up.

Thanks,
Brian


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

ThePlowKing said:


> At this point in the game i know there is no way to prevent him from bidding against me because the job is out to bid, I think it is more of an issue of professional courtsey. From this point on, all subcontractors and employees will have to sign a do not compete contract in order to work for me. Now i'm wondering how to enforce the contract, and better yet how is the typical do not compete contract written up.
> 
> Thanks,
> Brian


Brian as Mick said talk to a lawyer.


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

Mick said:


> Although asking if one can use you as a reference is a courtesy, there is no law to that effect, so there is no "cease and desist" issue to address. Simply give an honest opinion when contacted.


I didn't think it was, but I still think a letter from a lawyer to a contractor is worth the small amount of money it will cost. I've sent threatening letters through a lawyer before for other business reasons and sometimes they work, the person is intimidated enough to "cease and desist" or to make restitution, sometimes not. Generally it depends entirely on the other person and their knowledge of the law or lack of it. In this case I would only do this if you know he's still using your name as a reference. The funny thing about references is that most of them NEVER get called, so he's getting a free ride on your name if no one ever calls you but assumes you are endorsing him.


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