# Toys-R-Us RFP



## frogman (Jan 3, 2001)

Has anyone received a RFP from Toys R Us, through Symbiot Business Group? If so, what do you think of the contract? Has anyone checked it out with an attorney? It's a stacked deck, to be sure. This is the first that I've run across such a "deal" as this and I'm wondering if it's typical for a large Corporations. 
Bob


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

Frog...........Stacked deck ..you bet !!!!
These big mgmt. companies bag all these big companies plowing
then parcel it out to locals like us for peanuts !
Its steady work tho and we gotta take it !

Do a search for US Maintence Co. here and see a few tails of woe
concerning late or no pymt. etc. etc. .....geo


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## frogman (Jan 3, 2001)

Thanks Geo,
Sorry about the delayed reply. We've been dealing with a particularly tragic family death and I have not been on the computor much. 
This one isn't for peanuts, but I know what your talking about. They asked for a proposal. The contract is written such that if anything at all happens (related to winter weather) they are not responsible and the contractor is. To boot, they've got a 2" trigger which I see as 2 inches of opportunity for any number of types of lawsuits and just a matter of time before one comes around to eat up those profits or worse. I'm disappointed to see that it just looks like a set up for problems. I'm not touching it. Maybe if I was hungrier. I'm surprised that there aren't any more responses here. The company is requesting bids for all the Toys-R-Us/Babies-R-Us in the Eastern portion of The Country. I presumed that I got the RFP as a result of being a SIMA member but I may be mistaken about that.
Bob


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

FROG......Whats a RFP?

I hear ya bro. Sorry to hear it........
I have lost 6 family members since Nov. ! Hospitals and Funerals sure do suck ! Tough getting old !

Read the post I brought up on US Maint. and Dentco.
Some reports good, others...Hmmmmmmm.................geo


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

George, Request For Proposal. Management companies get contracts for snowplowing all Rite Aids (for example), then send out an RFP to all known companies who might be interested in subcontract work. Sometimes the term "Request for Proposal" isn't quite accurate as they tell you how much they'll pay. Then you're proposal is actually just a formality stating the you will go along with their pricing and will send them the other stuff they want; such a proof of insurance, types of equipment you have etc.


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## frogman (Jan 3, 2001)

George,
My condolences to you too. It's been like that here for the last couple of years. Just a couple of family members but the unit that I retired from has taken a lot of hits since9/11. Those guys meant a lot. I don't mind the getting older part but the losses are tough to take sometimes.
US maintenance sounds like a company that could use a boycot. Too bad were not that motivated as a group. I don't know how a plower could make it worth-while cutting himself short like that. I guess (as I mentioned before), maybe if I was hungry...
Bob


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## PolarBear (Nov 9, 2003)

I have a friend who belongs to the Symbiot Business group. he swears by it. It isn't so much a Maintenance company as it is a group of businesses that band together to get better purchasing power on equipment.

To become a member organization, I believe there might actually be a buy in, but I am not sure.

Check out the link for yourself

http://www.esymbiot.com/


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## Foz (Mar 27, 2001)

I have to differ with the "all the Toys R Us"...we have a contract for our local Toys R Us.....4 more years. Try to contact the manager at teh local store and bid directly to Toys R Us. Stay away from the maintenance companys.


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## frogman (Jan 3, 2001)

Foz,
I'm just repeating the info that Simbiot has given me. If that's not correct than you have my appologies.
There are 116 Toys R Us sites on the list for the 'Eastern Division". 10 of them are in NY state. Here's the address where you can check out the whole deal. You might want to be informed. 
Bob

http://www.symbiotnetworks.com/members/viewRFQ.php?infoID=18


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## PolarBear (Nov 9, 2003)

I just read the scope of work specs...

No way am I bidding on something that after January 1, 2005 the store manager can adjust the number of parking spaces / portion of lot that must be plowed.



I either plow and treat the entire lot or I don't do any of it.

Its like shovelling only one side or the walk or stairway... you know damn well that someone is gonna walk down the unshovelled side and fall.

I wonder if the store manager would like me walking in the store and telling him / her what toys to sell or what to put on sale?

Good luck to those who bid!:


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## frogman (Jan 3, 2001)

Stacked Deck. 
The specs have several little goodies like that. Due to the death in the family I didn't have the time to see if I could negotiate that thing towards something reasonable, before the window closed. I hope someone did.
Bob


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## Foz (Mar 27, 2001)

Our store was not on the list, but thanks for the link. Be careful when dealing with the property management companies!


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## Notaplower (May 27, 2005)

*Symbiot Business Group*

For those of you that do not really understand what Symbiot Business Group is all about, you should contact them. It is not so much about the sites that the company has now but is more about how the company can leveage a national status to get your company national buying power-especially for those things that you as plowers use on a daily basis. Meyers Plows, Salt, Lesco Products, John Deere Landscapes are just a few of the partners to name. I strongly encourage people to take a look at what the company can offer rather than sitting on the sidelines and complaining about things that they do not even completely understand. A better informed business owner is a better business owner-and I do not think that anyone can dispute that.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Notaplower (says something I think), there is much history here about SMG\Symbiot. That is what they are basing their opinions on, and some facts as well. The jury is out on whether or not Symbiot will actually pay those who do their work for them. 

I do know what Symbiot is about and have spoken with others. Yes, for some the purchasing power of Symbiot makes it all worthwhile for them. For others (including me) the partnership program discounts won't make up for becoming a member of Symbiot. We are already receiving great prices from Lesco. I also have a major issue with paying someone so I can have the 'opportunity' to bid on a project. I already can do that without paying someone. Not to mention in my area, the total lack of 'opportunities' to bid on squat through Symbiot for anything but CVS's. I might just as well throw my money away at the casino as give it to Symbiot. 

BTW, IMHO, John Deere mowers and Meyer plows are junk.

I'm pretty sure that most of the plowers here are pretty well informed on how payments were made by the former SMG now Symbiot. Maybe you should read a little more on how well informed we are. Then you might know why their is the animosity towards SMG\Symbiot.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Hi, notaplower. I think the original poster was wondering about the RFP, not Symbiot. I have met Sonjaab and Polarbear several times over the past few years and they DO know what they're talking about. Both have been in the snowplowing field for several years and have networked with others often.

As far as how Symbiot does, that remains to be seen. I'll be waiting for others' experiences as there is no track record from which to make a judgement. Following the SMG fiasco, I did visit the Symbiot website to find out as much as I could, although that does not mean I know what Symbiot is "all about". I also had become familiar with the SMG RFP a couple years ago when offered the opportunity to submit a bid for a couple of Rite Aid stores. I chose not to submit a bid.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

IMO, Stay away from the mgmt companies. You all can review my threads, but I'm till waiting another couple of months, supposedly until July '05, for my last 1/3 payment, of the 75% from their win/win/lose plan, from the SMG/Symbiot mess. That payment is from work we did more than 2 years ago!

I, like Mark, will not pay anyone for the mere opportunity to bid on anything. There's no guarantee of anything except that they will take your $750 annual membership fee, or whatever it's up to now.


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## Notaplower (May 27, 2005)

*Response to those of you who have left a message regarding Symbiot*

Some of you have left a message with regards to Symbiot. I can tell you that in relation to the purchasing power, you have to work the program right in order to make sure that you are using it properly. Some people may have been in the business for many years and I do not dispute their knowledge or intelligence of running their business but what I can tell you is that there is also a more efficent way for people to work smarter rather than harder. Would you rather want to go out and work hard or work smart? Some do both-others only do one. For those of you that do not think that the purchasing power is an asset, maybe it isn't for you because you just simply do not have enough business to even see the benefits. Also, if you think that the main purpose of Symbiot is to have sites for you to bid on, you are terribly mistaken. This is not the ultimate thoughts of the company but does play into it. Maybe there is quite a bit of unresolved issues with the former SMG-but they also still have a corner on the markets. It is kind of like going to Wal-Mart: You may not like it but it is there (and I am sure that someone will have something to say about that analogy) If you don't truly understand what it is about then you should ultimately try to understand it before you completely knock it. For those people that think that John Deere Mowers are junk, more power to you. The purchasing power is not only for John Deere-a company that has been around for a long time I think that it is inadequate to knock a nationally recognized company. They must be doing something right or they would not be in business after all these years. It also seems like there is alot of things that you business owners do not know about Symbiot. I am sure that if you contact them, they will tell you exactly what the company is about and how it plans to move things in the right direction during the 21st century. How many of you have ever been on a web cast to network with people across the nation about some of the national opportunities that may exist-I would gather that there would only be a handful of you out there. Folks, it is about educating your business. You get stagnet, you die as a business owner. Would we all agree on that? Symbiot wont let you get stagnet if you use the programs RIGHT. Don't expect to pay your membership fee and just get sites handed to you. It doesnt work that way. You must be active in the organization to get a ROI for you.
And for those of you that think you can go out there and just bid on a National account that Symbiot has negotiated-you may be correct, but I can tell you it will be alot harder doing it that way-and when something does go wrong, you can deal with the regional manager that has a much easier time of firing you than they would if you were involved in a National Contract Management Company.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Notaplower, why was Symbiot formed? I already know the answer, just wondering if you do.

Walmart, been in one once, never step foot in one again. Yes they are successful, but so is the Mafia and the drug cartels, so do you really want to use just success as a measuring stick? 

Apparently you didn't read or understand what I said about the purchasing power. Our costs from Lesco are not that much higher than what Symbiot memebers are paying to make the $750 worthwhile. I don't use any of the other brands that they are parnters with. I have demoed a couple different JD mowers and they were junk. I don't care how big of a company they are, their mowers were junk. Maybe you didn't know this, but JD made their reputation in the agriculture industry, not in the landscaping industry. Just because someone is successful in one field does not automatically mean they are successful in another industry. Call it inadequate or whatever you want, but you can't dispute facts. I am basing my opinion on knowledge that I have received by using their equipment and also on someone elses experience with JD. Now is it OK for me to say they are junk?

I have been in contact with Symbiot, several times over the past years, ever since they started 'advertising' for partners. Please don't tell me what I do and don't know about them. Unless you happen to know me personally, you have no idea what I do and don't know. 

I am also a member of a couple national associations and am fully aware that you get out what you put in. This goes back to my initial question. I will wait for your reply to the question before explaining myself more. I know what those associations can do for me and then make my judgement of joining based on those facts. So once again, please don't tell me what I do and don't know, unless you know me personally.

Any chance you might reveal your real identity rather than just hiding behind a nickname? Always makes me suspicious, but that's just me.


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## Notaplower (May 27, 2005)

*Response to Mark*

Mark, Symbiot was formed just like your company. Three reasons othewise known as the 3 P's in the business world. Profit-obviously something that we all desire. Prosperity-something that you would want to leave for your children. Protection-the idea and concept that all of us will have a secure economic future with whatever company we may be with. I hope that this answers your question. Symbiot does have alot of challenges but there are also many good things happening with this company just as happen with yours. It is interesting to read many of the comments about the "former" SMG- I can tell you from personal experience that if you want to know more about Symbiot, you can contact the CEO directly. Can we all say this about the Brickman Group or US Maintenance? I am not so sure that we can. Corporate Property Management Groups have their upside and their downsides-I cannot dispute that. The understanding of someone getting stung once is a reality but would you also never eat at McDonalds again if you had a bad hamburger? If you can state that you wouldn't then the program would not be for you. Symbiot doesn't take everyone that wants to be a partner. They are picky-and unless you are a viable company that they wish to partner with, you wont be a partner. Again, the proof will ultimately be in the future as to the success or failure of the company. There are over 1000 partners nationwide-although small, it does give a great basis for those out there that desire the type of contracts that Symbiot goes after. I highly doubt that you can know everything that there is to know about Symbiot especially if you have not talked with them in the past 6 or 8 months. Again, your points are well taken-just don't completely knock it until you have all the facts.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

From my understanding it wasn't the 3 P's directly. It was formed by several large landscape companies that needed to compete with Landcare and\or Trugreen\Landcare-TruGreen USA. It was a coalition of these companies that wanted to be able to provide their customers with good services in areas where they were not. Therefore, they did not have to start up a satellite location and then gain more customers to make that location viable. There were no fees (that I know of), no different levels of partners, just these large companies banding together to compete against the others that sold out.

It has since evolved greatly since that and it is probably a good deal for some. But for me, my costs at Lesco are not that much higher to pay for the 'membership' fee. I don't use Meyer or JD, because I believe from my experience that they are junk. Symbiot can not give me the opportunity to bid on squat around me because Target, McDonalds, etc, etc are either franchises or renting property or something similar. On top of that, the way most of the companies that Symbiot 'represents' are maintained in my area, i wouldn't want my name on those places. Most of them are dumps around here.

I have some issues that they would bail someone out like SMG as well. The problems are not just growing too fast, despite what is being said publicly. The problem of not paying contractors has been around a lot longer than the last 2 years. This is just when it became very widely known.

There is something that doens't make sense about the way Symbiot is going about their snow business as well. Last fall, a bank that we have provided services for over *40 years* went with a management company. I gave the management company a price (the same price the bank was paying in the first place), the next day I get a call from somebody at Symbiot asking me to bid out these same properties. Huh? I figure whatever and give them the same prices I gave the management company. Basically the same specs. Next thing they are talking to me about becoming a partner, blah, blah, blah and how they tackon 5% or 10% depending on whether I am a partner, etc. I couldn't care less about what they add to it, my costs are the same no matter who I am billing for the work.

Now the kicker, I am not a partner but there is a partner in our area. Why didn't they call him???????????????????????????????????????????????????

I've spoke with Bruce Wilson before, he used a lot of the same methods we use to save money in the commercial market and still provide a high level of service, we just don't have the desire to get that big. He is very intelligent and a good businessman. From what I have heard about US Maintenance, I have no need or desire to talk with their CEO. Brickman isn't in my area so I don't need to talk with him either. If I wanted to, I probably could get to him because I think Brickman is an ALCA\Planet member. Not sure what being available really has to do with anything, though. If it means anything, a lot of the contractors that were owed money were in dorect contact with JAA before he was bailed out. I don't understand your point.

Anyways, I need to get some work done so I can go to the Symposium and get something out of my membership there. If it matters to you about what I think about organizations and their worth to me, I am a Charter Member of SIMA. When I see a benefit, I invest.

PS This is before they saved SMG (not merged, but saved) from going bankrupt.

PPS I am quite sure that not much has changed in their offerings since then. I checked out the website again just to see if I was missing something, I determined that I am not and I don't have to pay someone to give me the opportunity to bid on something. I can do it for free.


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## Notaplower (May 27, 2005)

*Response to Mark*

Your points are well guided and I can understand where you are comming from. I guess it is all in how you run your business and it sounds like you have a profitable company that does not want some of the work that Symbiot may be able to provide. I find it very strange though to state that you can bid on the sites that Symbiot may have on your own (or ones that you think may be independent of the larger contracts) that you have not recieved the availabilty-or stated that you have recieved the ability to service these sites. Maybe it is just the fact that you dont really want them to begin with as well-I do not know. I also find it interesting for you to state that you would not want to put your name on any of the services that you have seen that Symbiot does perform. What makes you different? Maybe you are a partner that Symbiot should have and show them why it is important that they give you the sites that you would want to bid on. Show them why you are better-and different-and can do a better job. Obviously there are many differentiating factors that go into someones business and if you have those, why not showcase them by being one of the premier people in your area that can service the sites that Symbiot holds contracts to? I dont question your ability to run your company at all-as it seems like you have a good handle on it but why not take a better slice of the pie-if you desire by showcasing what you do have? Just a thought.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Notaplower, like Mark asked previously, could you please tell us your name, perhaps whom you work for and what your background is? I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, however, your posts are liking to those of previous posers(for lack of a better title) whereby they talked up, or down, the companies they worked for, all the while under an alias.


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## Notaplower (May 27, 2005)

*Response to Mr. Banks*

Mr. Banks,
All that I am trying to do is give a perspective on some things that you may or may not wish to hear. Obviously you have been stung by some corporate property management company in the past-SMG must be one of them since your personal attacks on people are very heavy. It is obvious from your web site that you have a very reputable business but unforntuantely it seems that you wish to tarnish it by slamming others-I will not give you that pleasure just because you wish to know my name and company. I am simply trying to shead some light on an industry that we are all a part of-and what difference does it make if you know my name or what company that I own or work for. You have your opinions and I have mine-that is what we call freedom of speech here in this great land of America. You are entitled to your feelings-to which if I was burned on an amount of money-no matter what amount it would be I would not be happy either. All that I was trying to do is give a perspective on what is really going on. Maybe you should read the article in GIE's Media SNOW Magazine. Maybe this will help to explain some of the thoughts that have been posted on here regarding SMG's status and how they run their operations currently. Also, maybe you should elaborate on US Maintenance a bit or the Brickman Group. I would like to know some of your thoughts on them. Have you ever been affiliated with those companies or did one leave a bad taste in your mouth so you would never go back to them? Judging by your attitude I am guessing they did. You can co-exist with the larger companies-no disputes there. But to take a personal attack out on someone without personally knowing them-well that is simply not a good business practice-no matter who you are! So, for this reason I will not give you the pleasure of knowing what my name is or what company I work with. Mr. Banks, usually those that are pointing the fingers are the ones that have the issues. Point the finger back to yourself. A true business person would do that and state that they simply do have issues of their own. You must think we live in a utopian society. You get more flys with honey than you do with vinegar. Just one thought from one business man to another.


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*SMG doctrine*

sorry it posted twice....


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*SMG doctrine*

This "not a plower" talks the same as the other SMG employees. I have read the article in Snow Magazine. This article looks like more damage control for SMG Simboit. Statements like "lack of cash, not profit, placed SMG on thin ice" and "we felt that was the best way to make it fair for everybody...to offer 75 percent to everybody rather than to pick and choose whom to pay" is nothing but damage control statements.

I have watched this "area management" raise its ugly head. To state to the people in the seminar: 1. don't price your self to cheap 2. Work on high margins "40 - 60 %" then come into the area bid jobs at "10% - 15%" margins or less, this cut the legs out from under the people that paid $145+ to attend his seminars, this was just part of his scam.

When you drive down the cost of snow removal to less than it costs to operate equipment, pay less than agreed upon or not pay people at all for there work this is not good for the industry.

The area management doctrine has hit our area. A company comes in bid less than it cost to do the job. The legitimate business man looks like he is ripping off the customer by his price. Then to make the profit the area management company does not pay the subcontractors. Area management company is 2 or 3 corporations deep so there is no money if there is a judgment awarded to the subcontractor. The customer learns to late that he has been scammed. In Ohio the subcontractor can go back on the customer if he is not paid by the area management company. The customer can end up paying twice. This is no good for the industry. But his scam is not new, this scam has been used in the building industry and in the product procurement industry. It is a get rich scheme that causes the product or service provider with a huge loss.

I am very happy that people on these plow sites tell us of the area management people not paying as I have learned from them.

Remember this " if you put lipstick on a pig you still have a pig." We only work for company's that have a track record of paying. Does SMG have this record? Is that why SMG separated from JAAs companies before the cash flow problems surfaced? The negative statements can go on and on.

Dave


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

*Here goes*

Notaplower, your posts in general and specifically to me are so familiar. I am not going to rehash all that I have written about in the past, but here goes...

I know what you're trying to do, as your posts appear to be very familiar. It's the same rhetoric from past post of others under their aliases. We have all read these "perspectives" over the past months and it's nothing more than spin control for SMG-Symbiot.

Yes, I have been stung by SMG as you have probably read in my previous posts by now. I don't agree about any personal attacks, other than those who post under an alias and are therefore faceless. I don't have any kind feelings for John Allin or any of his lackeys. I was blatantly lied to and that's not how I do business.

I have not slammed anyone unjustly. Everything that I have ever said has been factual and my experience. This comment has also been made in previous posts by SMG employees. Thank you for viewing our web-site, and you're correct, I have a reputable business. I am not looking to slam you or your business. However, when someone posts under an alias, in my opinion, you lack any credibility. Especially after the track record of those whom have tried it during the last couple of years. Again, you may refer to my previous posts/discussions. It's not difficult to realize when SMG is attempting to work spin control.

It's not that important to me what your name is or what your company is. Again, imo, you lack credibility when you're faceless. Just look at the handful of SMG employees and consultants that have tried and failed at this approach. Their posts are here.

I agree with Freedom Of Speech in the land I love. That's what has allowed me to explain my experience and inform others. By presenting the facts as I have, if I can save just one contractor from encountering the same horrible experience with SMG that I have and continue to deal with, then it's worth it.

I read the article and can't believe a lot of what was written and how it was written. They say nothing about all of the lawsuits against SMG and John Allin. There's nothing about the lawsuits of the two women who are suing him, one from New Jersey and the other from PA. One can only assume what they're about. Then there's the lawsuits from the contractors, the banks/finance companies, etc.

Funny how back last August, SMG changed status from a Division of Allin Companies to an LLC.

I could go on and on. As I have said before, the facts would make you sick, if they were ever all published. There's an idea... hmmmm

I have never worked with/for or been affiliated with US Maintenance or Brickman, therefore, I can not elaborate on them. I have read/discussed the experiences of others and can say that it's very likely we will never entertain any request of theirs.

Whom did I personally attack? You? If you feel like I attacked you, I sincerely apologize. I was merely asking for your name, innocent enough.

If you're refering to John Allin and the other SMG puppets, sure, perhaps I have attacked them. Again, justly so. As I have written before, I have mailicious emails, posts, etc from many of them. One from John himself where he did not intend to include my name in the email to, and he admitted so after I answered him back. I have been threatened by SMG employees in the past to keep my mouth shut and to tone things down. I am not easily intimidated and will keep up the fight for as long as this BS continues. I have had SMG employees telling me they are going to visit me. My response was, you know my address. I am not trying to be bold, but I refuse to let these people try and get away with anything else.

No credibility imo. I believe many others feel the same.

You're right, I do have issues. I have issues with those who blatantly lie. I have issues with those who can not practice what they preach. I have issues with those who scam and slither.

In pointing the finger back at myself, I never want to see any of this BS happen to any other contractors.

Utopian society? No. I am a capitalist, opportunist, etc. like many others here. I work very hard for my money. I don't mind working hard, but don't screw me either. Don't lie to me. I started my business from nothing and have come a long way. Luckily, I am still in business. Unfortunately, there are those companies that do not exist today because of the games and BS of SMG. Companies subbing for SMG paid their bills, fuel, employees, machines, insurance, taxes, etc. But now, since they have not gotten paid from SMG, were forced to go out of business.

The flys with honey BS is the approach that SMG should have taken instead of not communicating with anyone.

Then, once they made their announcement, they had the nerve to say it was a win/win/win when really it was a win/win/LOSE! More BS from SMG. Yes, 75% is better than nothing, but that still doesn't make it right. Don't act like you're doing me this huge justice by paying me a portion of what you owe me.

Now, this week I rec'd a letter from Symbiot saying how they have not been paid from the assets/contracts that they assumed in the SMG bailout and there are some contractors who will only be paid a portion of their portion and some will not get paid at all. Performance issues, etc are what they are blaming, but I don't buy it. If performance issues were to blame, they would have made that condition in the initial settlement offer, not now. I thought something like this would arise about this time, just when we're supposed to receive the last 1/3 of our partial payment. The SMG BS saga continues.

Notaplower, I appreciate your efforts to educate/inform me ( and others), but honestly, it looks so familiar to previous posts, that I remain skeptical...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

OK, just got back from vacation. Notaplower, this has already been covered by plowed and Skyking, who are you? I know you won't actually answer unless somebody that knows computers a lot better than me can determine your ISP or whatever. I know the mods can do it, not sure if just anybody can. I am sure you are like the other SMG employee's that have tried to defend cheating people out of money because you underbid them and then don't have the profit to continue growing your company. 

The stories in the 2 magazines all say too much growth not enough cash flow. Seems to me that if one has enough profit, the cash flow will be there to grow one's business. Nothing is mentioned about the mistakes in bidding that occurred or the intentional low bidding that really caused the cash flow problems. There was no mention of the fact that these problems started 4 years ago, that is the problems of not paying subs. Sorta strange IMO. But what do I know, I pay all my subs in full and bid my jobs at the margins I need to stay in business.

How about the sidebar by Chris James that states JAA tried turning a service into a commodity--something that prices can change on? How about the quotes from Jeff Tovar or Steve Fuzinski about being underbid by 'national companies'? Why don't you refer to those? Last time I heard, Tovar's had 5 or 6 MBA's working there? These are the ones who know what really happened. How about all the statements of margins of 50, 60, 70 percent were being preached and then margins of 10 percent were the prices actually used to bid? I just got back from the Symposium, would you like to know what feeling I received? What wasn't stated outright but was implied was that because of 'National companies', snow and ice management prices are going down around the country. This is the only reason I can think of that prices are going down. 

I am not sure if you can't read or if I didn't explain enough. A few years ago when Symbiot started advertising for members, there was ONLY 1 property that I had the OPPORTUNITY to bid on in my area. There was no guarantee of getting the job, and it did go to a Symbiot partner, the same contractor as the year before maintained it again. The big company's that use Symbiot--McDonald's, Toy's R Us, etc, in my area are franchises--NOT CORPORATELY OWNED--or they rent their real estate and are not in charge of hiring their landscape and snow\ice management company's. So once again, my $750 would have gone down the drain. Instead, I invested it in my company so I could grow (or pay my subs). 

Currently, the only properties that I could bid through SMG, which I did, are the CVS's. Our payments were not always in the time they were supposed to be, but we did get paid in full. Not sure if I will bid them next year if I am asked. 

I see where I was a little confusing. If the way that some of these companies are currently maintained (in my area) is indicative of the way SMG\Symbiot manages their accounts, I would not want to have my company name associated with them. They are not plowed professionally IMO for the most part. It is obvious that for some of these locations price is the only thing that matters.

Do I have the beginnings of Symbiot correct? You never answered that. But then you only answer the questions you want to.

It will be very interesting to see if Symbiot will be able to continue this philosophy AND turn a profit. My bet is no way. Unless they are going to supplement their snow work with landscape work, which won't work because margins aren't high enough in landscaping. 

One last question, notaplower. Can you name me one profitable business that has been on the verge of bankruptcy? (at the same time as being profitable?)


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Same beliefs*

To all that have posted the truth about not getting paid on time, agreed upon amount or not being paid at all. Your word is getting out. Have you looked at how many people have viewed the threads? Exodus to Freedom 4640 and this thread 1149.

The evil of this scam is being spread all over the computer literate snow plow industry. Many more know about this because of the few who tell of not being paid.

I for one want to thank one and all who have told there story. With enough people hearing about this and not doing business with the people who don't pay as agreed, they will have a harder time getting people to do there work.

No matter how they put the spin on there story or try and spread damage control, we all have seen through there scam.

Again the 5700+ people who have read and the many who have posted I thank you!

Dave


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## Tommy10plows (Jan 1, 2001)

*Not paid??*

HMM, lots of bad news here. My position is this-

signed work orders or contracts for the commercial lots.

no pay, no plow the next time.

You want timely service, you pay timely. NO after the fact quality of service issues, if you are not happy you call me that night or that day, none of this when the bill is due you missed this or missed that. And you spell out who your on site contact is and the scope of that on site agent of the owner's authority. No others can interfere, and an agent cannot assign his agency. He is the man.

no pay after 30 days, a ten day notice of intent to file a lien.

After that (40 days from service date) i file a lien against the property. That is it.

Let them fight it out in the courts with me. They have assets, I have a claim against those assets for work done on those assets.

These guys who don't pay you are the same as a burglar who sneaks in your house in the middle of the night and steals that antique lamp your Auntie Mildred left you in her will.

You know, more money is stolen every year with the swipe of a pen then was ever stolen at the barrel of a gun. Why do you guys bother taking these accounts if you know that they were trouble? Whaddaya need to practice plowing? Don't waste your time. If you want to do charity work, do it for your favorite charity, not your favorite "big" company.

Bad clients are not like wine, they don't get better with age. You can fire your clients if they don't fit right and nothing fits worse than not getting paid.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Tommy10plows said:


> HMM, lots of bad news here. My position is this-
> 
> signed work orders or contracts for the commercial lots.
> 
> ...


All very valid point Tommy10Plows. My decision to keep servicing the property was based on the fact that I wanted to remain professional and live up to my end of the contract. Did that come back to bite me? Sure, considering the situation. If I had known that the outcome would have been as such, I would have done things a lot differently.

As for the lien process, unfortunately here in good old CT, snow plowing does not constitute an improvement to the property, therefore, a lien can not be placed for snow plowing. Although there are some other things we did that we can lien for, and may depending on this new turn of events.

As for the on-site contact, SMG had a new hire in place. He was a great guy and meant well, but he quit very soon after he realized the position he was in. He was also responsible for another large site location, which during storms would take at least 40 minutes to get to. Therefore, when the client came looking for him, they were not happy when he was not around. It wasn't his fault, but he was put in an awkward position. So when the time came for us to get paid, he quickly realized the games that were being played on the part of his employer. According to him, they also gave him the runaround with some of the committments they were supposed to have lived up to with regard to his employment.

BTW, we had a contract, it was SMG's own contract, which they didn't even make good on.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I am not sure if you can't read or if I didn't explain enough. A few years ago when Symbiot started advertising for members, there was ONLY 1 property that I had the OPPORTUNITY to bid on in my area. There was no guarantee of getting the job, and it did go to a Symbiot partner, the same contractor as the year before maintained it again. The big company's that use Symbiot--McDonald's, Toy's R Us, etc, in my area are franchises--NOT CORPORATELY OWNED--or they rent their real estate and are not in charge of hiring their landscape and snow\ice management company's. So once again, my $750 would have gone down the drain. Instead, I invested it in my company so I could grow (or pay my subs).


Mark, you're absolutely correct about Symbiot and their $750 annual fee. They tried to lure me in with the same pitch. I told them I am a home builder/contractor so I don't need their buying power, and I also don't need to pay them for the opportunity to possibly bid on something that they may potentially have a contract for. Just more BS!


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

plowed said:


> $750 annual fee.


$750 annually????  You've got to be kidding - is that a typo?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mick said:


> $750 annually????  You've got to be kidding - is that a typo?


No, Mick, it isn't a typo. But just look at all the wonderful things that Symbiot can do for you, right, notaplower?

I just noticed a typo in my previous post, where I stated that the property went to a Symbiot member, I meant to say it DID NOT go to a Symbiot member.   Sorry.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Mick said:


> $750 annually????  You've got to be kidding - is that a typo?


Hey Mick, no not a typo like Mark said. For $750 you can pay them for the opportunity to possibly bid on something that they may potentially have a contract for.

Oh yeah, and you get their buying power, whatever that equates to.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

FWIW, I noticed that Symbiot removed the profiles of Jeff Vermon and JAA from the Profiles section of it's website. Interesting, since they were posted previously...


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

JOHN.........................While at the SIMA Symposium in Louisville
I spoke with the Symboit folks. They seemed nice enough.........

I asked about the $750 deal.............Hmmmm...Not for me !

I also spoke with the head guy of a BIG plow operation here in the NE. 
and a sponsor of a SIMA event or 2. 

He said he was gonna pay the $750 to get in the door with them.
I guess time will tell if its worth it to his company................
geo...............


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## DaveOhio (Jul 23, 2000)

*The rehabilitation of John Allin*

Has anyone wondered about the powder puff piece of journalism referred to in this thread?

What is the purpose of the article/interview with John Allin?

And... what happened to SIMA? Their membership list is published inside, but it's called something else. There is a legal disclaimer stickered on the cover-- post publication-- saying the magazine has nothing to do with the Snow and Ice management Association.

What's up at SIMA? Can someone post a link to this article? I gave my copy to a friend. Could not believe what I was reading. This website was mentioned, and John was just an innocent victim, almost remorseful.

What is the purpose of the article/interview with John Allin? Who stands to gain by its publication?

David


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Very interesting, John. Sorta makes one wonder.

DaveOhio, I couldn't believe either of the articles either. I'll try to explain as much as I know about it. For some reason L&L did not want to publish Snow Business anymore or SIMA did not want L&L to publish it for them. Not sure which. SIMA is now having the same company publish Snow Business as publishes Landscape Management. The sticker was placed there by L&L so everyone would know that L&L's new magazine is not the official magazine of SIMA anymore. 

Who do you think stands to (re)gain something by this article?


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Mark Oomkes said:


> . For some reason L&L did not want to publish Snow Business anymore or SIMA did not want L&L to publish it for them. Not sure which. SIMA is now having the same company publish Snow Business as publishes Landscape Management. The sticker was placed there by L&L so everyone would know that L&L's new magazine is not the official magazine of SIMA anymore.


  But who's on first?


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

Sonjabb already posted about his experiences with Symbiot at the symposium. I also attended the same show and also found the Symbiot people to be polite but a little pushy at the same time in regards to "recruiting" subs for their contracts. The smg thing was brought up but quickly dismissed as being "behind them now" (I thought that was a little funny considering its not behind the people who are still owed money!) 

I also talked to another major player in nation wide services and he acknowledged that contractors are much more reluctant to sign with them and he directly blamed SMG. US Maint. and Dentco as reasons why. Now he said we have to promise payment within 10-15 days or contractors flat out refuse to even talk to them. The consequences of what happened in this SMG-Symbiot deal will have far reaching and long lasting repercussions from everyone, contractors, subcontractors and even property owners. 

A couple of reasons why we don't bother with the nationals. One: The contractors in this area that I have seen and know about that do this type of work are to say the least, not the most professional in the area- (lowballers) so I am not going to bother to pay a company to bid against these guys when I can do that for free. Two: the nationals seem to concentrate on the big retail accounts and malls. Most of our area is too densely packed to have large retail stores that have acres of parking so industrial and smaller commercial companies dominate and multi use buildings are the preferred concentration and these sites are run by local management companies or office condo associations. Three: The best accounts around this area are medical facilities. Why? They know the cost of a lawsuit and they have no problem with money. Most of these companies are flush with cash and know that great service costs more then just getting the best price possible. 

As a side note: at the symposium we had a town meeting type of event and we discussed the future of the industry and many in attendance predicted (wished for) the death of the nationals. 

As always only time will tell....


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

JD...............Yup............I made No mention of their past or SMG
issues. Or even the JA thing................

Just a "howdy" and a bit of glad handing and SURE I will eyeball 
your brochure. Have a great day and talk to ya later.............

They all sat at a table near us and the Daniels Co. crew at the 
awards banquet and pretty much kept to themselves. 
Even speaking to them they were quite pleasant tho.
............................geo  

Sure can't wait for John Parkers BBQ in Poughkeepsie in Oct. 
to see all the guys and wait for the winter snow kickoff !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I need to pick up a load of Magic Salt !


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I doubt that nationals will die. Even though I wouldn't mind seeing it happen either. I think they will be there, most likely just not as prominent as they are or have been. I believe that snowfall is too regionalized to be able to handle it the way it was tried, maybe with the exception of how SMG handles CVS and Wachovia. They basically centralize the paperwork and handle bidding, complaints, etc. They hire subs that know the area and bid accordingly. The idea of bidding a job in CT or NJ from PA, I never did understand how that could work and obviously it didn't.

I think it's just like back in the mid to late 90's when every company was buying out every other company and 'diversifying'. Profits were good, easy to make, being efficient wasn't that big of a deal. When there was a downturn in the economy, then most of these comapnies started selling off (or trying to) all the companies they had purchased because they needed to focus on their core business again. This still happens, but to a much smaller degree and that is what I think will happen with the national companies.

The biggest problem with the nationals is that they can't provide the personal service that you or I can. A call has to be made to some out-of-state company and then go through all that to get to us. If the customer can make one call to a local service provider and have the problem solved or meet with the service provider in a matter of an hour or two instead of having to wait for the area rep to be in the area later in the week, that will make a huge difference to most customers.


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

BUT the BAD thing for us little guys is those big companies will
out bid, out promise and give us little guys the screw job !

All those Real estate mgt. companies, big box stores see is PRICE !
Along with flashy web sites, brochures, and pics of a BIG fleet of
equipment (which most companies don't even own or lease anyhoo)

Plain and simple........................Sad but true !.....................geo


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

To a certain point that is true. If all they look at is price, is that the customer you want? The biggest problem is what they do to pricing as we have been discussing. After 1 season of crappy service or broken promises, they may realize that it is worthwhile to pay more for snow services. But after what the national company brought the price down to, to get the work, it will be very difficult to get the margins that you normally get. 

One of our biggest snow accounts was not happy with their previous provider. They asked us to bid. Our price was higher on snow plowing but overall less than what they had been paying because the idiot before was plowing with pickups then hauling the snow to storage areas instead of using loaders\pushers right away. They did a cost study after the first year and their cost per inch was almost cut in half. This was the same year we set a 24 hr snowfall record. 

Funny thing is that I was reminded of. JAA said in his book and other times that if you were underbid it was because you undersold. Now I know what he really meant. 

I guess I'll continue to undersell.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I’ve been giving some thought to this subject of national management over the past few days. In my opinion, there are two main factors which will doom them:

1. National companies themselves do not provide ANY of the core business service (plowing snow)
2. Cost of service is the driving force

A local company, whether that is the one-man operation or the large construction company, will provide the actual service of plowing snow. Now, you may say they can’t compete with the management companies, but they can; because, in the end, someone will provide the service for the price the national will pay. Or the service won’t get provided and the service user (ie: CVS, Wachovia etc) will have to find a local provider, anyway. 

Since we mostly agree that cost is the determining factor in selecting a service provider (especially for non-residential accounts), I see the task here to be showing these “service users” that using a national provider is not cost effective. This is simple - whatever they are being charged, the service provider is getting less. By hiring the local service provider, the service user will not be increasing costs (and may actually be decreasing costs). At the same time, the service provider is either maintaining or increasing their income level. 

The next factors in selecting a service provider is quality of service and accountability. Here, too, the national management companies have little actual influence since they, themselves, provide no actual services in these areas. They may have a “Regional Manager” or similar person who the service user contacts, but this person then needs to make other arrangements to actually provide service. By hiring the local company, this problem solves itself. Whether it’s a call to “Joe” of the one-man operation or the boss of the construction company, there will be a better resolution, and faster, simply because of the basic structure of the two companies.

Next, the argument of the national managements that they can provide one point for providing service to a chain store, is weak at best. They still have to arrange for a local contractor to provide actual service at each location. Each location would be better served by dealing directly with a local provider. Control is a major consideration for everyone; the service user wants to be able to control the quality of the service and the contractor wants to control the timing, personnel, equipment etc. By using a management company, each is giving up the very control they want.

The key here is to develop a relationship with the local manager of the “big box” stores who often have some level of decision-making for hiring contractors. Small, one-man operations need to make an effort to get to know business owners/managers in their market area. Larger contractors need to get to know the same people in those “big-box” stores. 


This got kind of long and involved, but like I said - I’ve been giving some thought to the subject. These management companies are getting around to coming up here to central Maine and I’ve been wondering if they would actually get around to my neighborhood.


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## Notaplower (May 27, 2005)

*Response to All on SBG*

I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their input on SBG. Mark's comments and Mr. Banks comments are well advised. Guys, I understand all of your comments and they are well taken. I would not like some of the things that have been done to all of you happen to me-there is no question about that. Every day changes are being made with SBG. The concept of having a company like Denco, US Maintenance and Brickmen are not part of Symbiot's Mission. The structure is different. There are way to many intricate parts to metion here but I assure you they are different. You may ask: " I don't care as long as they pay me!" -and I feel you would be accurate. You all have a business to run and you need the money to pay the bills. That part is understandable. Many of the accounts are becoming more structured like the CVS and Wachovia models. It is getting better but will take some time. Symbiot still has many service providers that work for them and are happy to work for them. Are they all getting paid in 30 days? I do not know that I can say that is happening yet. Part of this reasoning is that major accounts that SBG holds has not released some of their monies yet. Nobody has ever addressed this issue. All that everyone sees is that they are not getting theirs yet. Can't say that I disagree with any of you not getting yours in a timely fashion but just wanted to clarify.

For those of you who do not understand the purchasing power end of things-wouldnt it be nice if you could get 10-15% right off the top of your purchases from Lesco and then get a year end rebate as well? I think we could all agree on that. Or wouldn't it be great if you could get 3-4 cents per gallon back on your fuel bills each time you go to those pumps that cost us all so much to fill up each day? Or for that matter, all of those cell phones that we have for purposes of getting in touch with each other-wouldnt it be great if you could get 15-16% off of the top of your billings each month? 
This is just a few folks. Not here to try and "sell" you a membership to Symbiot but what I can state is that for every dollar that you spend, if you could recieve a 3-4 or even 10-16% Return on your investment, wouldn't we all like that?

I know that Symbiot is not perfect and Mr. Banks-to you in particular-I can understand your frustration and your comments are well warrented. This thread was not intended to give anyone the impression that SBG is perfect but to also give some insight as to how things are being handled now. There are problems but you work through those problems-which Symbiot has made alot of effort to do. I welcome these comments because for those of you who are making valid points, Symbiot can then recognize that they still have people out there that are not happy. Symbiot is changing everyday and the changes-hopefully it will be for the better but right now it is too early to tell.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

You all may recall my previous post in this thread about not receiving our last payment from Symbiot, which verbage was taken from their letter. As per their settlement deal we were supposed to have rec'd our last 1/3 payment from the 75% settlement in June '05. Well here it is July 7th and still no payment. So I called Mr. Steven Glover of Symbiot today asking about the letter and payment. He said that the letter had been rescinded and we would be receiving our check. He told me the checks were cut, but they had to wait for the bank to release the funds. He then became very rude and said that "oh yeah, you're the one who likes to bash us" I said, on the contrary, I am the one who is trying to save other contractors from getting hurt. He said he has seen my posts and then he became a bit hostile and said that I did not have any of the correct information or facts. He said that the banks had to release their funds (BS, as I spent a number of years in banking) and that certain things had to take place. I told him that everything I have told has been 100 factual and truthful. All of the lawsuits and legal items are public record, and anyone can see that information. I said none of this information about the letter being rescinded has been explained to anyone, so I am going with what little information I have rec'd from Symbiot. This guy apparently didn't want to speak with me and hung up on me. Nice.

Hurry up and keep waiting for my check...from 1 1/2 years ago.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Well, well. It doesn't sound like there have been many changes made in the management of SMG\Symbiot. Maybe Mr. Glover should take some lessons from notaplower on how to drum up 'partners'. Or maybe, could it be, nah, I doubt it, that notaplower is Mr Glover?

John, slightly different on the release of funds, but maybe they don't have the money and it is like getting a certified check instead of a personal check? 

Very ignorant, as well. I have not seen anywhere where you have bashed Symbiot and told nothing but the facts about SMG. You have been very restrained in your comments about Symbiot, IMO. But if he's seen your posts then that must be why they aren't calling me anymore. lolololololol


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*shoot the messanger*

What is wrong with these people? If you do not do bad things people won't say bad things about you. They are the ones who did not pay as agreed MANY TIMES!

I want to change the statement "no good deed will go unpunished". John I do thank you for exposing the evils of SMG and Simbot. I also thank the others who were willing to share the pitfalls of dealing with a company that does not pay according to contract. I can't say this enough this is not good for the snow removal industry.

John, I will also go so far as to say "ride that pasta burner to Akron and I will buy you dinner". That is the least I can do for an honest man. You and your kind have made a difference in the industry in a positive manner.

Dave


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Well, well. It doesn't sound like there have been many changes made in the management of SMG\Symbiot. Maybe Mr. Glover should take some lessons from notaplower on how to drum up 'partners'. Or maybe, could it be, nah, I doubt it, that notaplower is Mr Glover?
> 
> John, slightly different on the release of funds, but maybe they don't have the money and it is like getting a certified check instead of a personal check?
> 
> Very ignorant, as well. I have not seen anywhere where you have bashed Symbiot and told nothing but the facts about SMG. You have been very restrained in your comments about Symbiot, IMO. But if he's seen your posts then that must be why they aren't calling me anymore. lolololololol


You may be on to something there making the connection Mark! Who needs the Pink Panther.

That was my thought too about the release of funds. They must not have all that capital they said they did. If the bank is holding funds, it's for a real good reason, like there are other outstanding claims/items, or if it's being conveyed as a loan.

Thanks for your support Mark, along with everyone else. I try to keep as professional as possible, and you're right, it has not been easy. But I want to keep you guys posted and I think I'm doing the right thing here. If someone had told me about this nightmare two years ago that I was about have, I would have walked away.

They will be calling you Mark, don't worry. I heard your name is at the top of their preferred contractor list! :angry:


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

SkykingHD said:


> What is wrong with these people? If you do not do bad things people won't say bad things about you. They are the ones who did not pay as agreed MANY TIMES!
> 
> I want to change the statement "no good deed will go unpunished". John I do thank you for exposing the evils of SMG and Simbot. I also thank the others who were willing to share the pitfalls of dealing with a company that does not pay according to contract. I can't say this enough this is not good for the snow removal industry.
> 
> ...


You're welcome Dave. Thank you very much for your support and for your offer! Just remember this, while most people eat to live, I live to eat! I enjoy good food. Thanks again.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

John, if you "live to eat" - come on up to Maine and I'll take you for some lobster.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Sounds great Mick, count me in! My record is a 3 lb lobster, all to myself. That, of course, was after a large bowl of chowder! Best meal yet, although I don't remember eating much else for a day or two after


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Exactly what kind of preference am I at the top of?


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Exactly what kind of preference am I at the top of?


Well, being that Mr. Steven Glover, the man with whom I spoke, is the Executive Chairman of the Board for Symbiot, I expected our conversation to go a lot different to be honest. It sounds like you Mark, are at the top of the Contractor to Call for a $750 donation list...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Tell you what, I have a win\win\win. I will join up with Symbiot if I can pay 75% of $750, 3 payments, over 1 1/2 years with no interest, how's that? 

And BTW, the last payment will be a little late because the funds have to be released by my bank.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Tell you what, I have a win\win\win. I will join up with Symbiot if I can pay 75% of $750, 3 payments, over 1 1/2 years with no interest, how's that?
> 
> And BTW, the last payment will be a little late because the funds have to be released by my bank.


My sides hurt, I can't breath ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!


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## Mike Smallwood (Nov 2, 2004)

*Rumor or Truth?*



plowed said:


> My sides hurt, I can't breath ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!


Heard in a phone conversation that Steve Glover and others at Symbiot resigned yesterday?, Unconfirmed but a contractor I know mentioned it in conversation. Is the ship sinking and the captain jumping?

:yow!: purplebou :redbounce


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## Mike Smallwood (Nov 2, 2004)

*Maine & Snow*



Mick said:


> I've been giving some thought to this subject of national management over the past few days. In my opinion, there are two main factors which will doom them:
> 
> 1. National companies themselves do not provide ANY of the core business service (plowing snow)
> 2. Cost of service is the driving force
> ...


Mick,
I'm up in Maine every weekend and would love the opportunity to sit and socialize with you and discuss your position, I'm from the inside of the former forementioned national company. Could give you some insight you might find interesting. payup 
 :waving:


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Hi, Mike. I'd be glad to. If you're going to be around the area of Augusta/Belfast/Waterville, let me know. If you want to come out here, I live in Palermo.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

That's big news there Mr. Smallwood, very interesting. Thanks. I wonder who the others are? Perhaps If Steven Glover, Executive Chairman of the Board, has resigned, then so has Matthew Glover, VP and Board Member????


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## Mike Smallwood (Nov 2, 2004)

*Rumor or Fact*

John,
Like I said I do not know if it's true, but it was mentioned to me in a conversation on Friday. GAWD, Am I glad I'm out of that company and really truly apologize`if I offended anyone when I was working for you know`who!! 
Mike Smallwood
[email protected]


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## Taconic (May 18, 2001)

Mike,You shouldnt be blamed for defending smg when you worked for them you were just trying to do your job and were given misleading information.Some of us knew along time ago how misleading smg was but you did not.You were only working with the information you were given,and lets face it they were signing your paycheck so you really didnt have a choice but to believe what smg told you.Well imglad you have seen the light and have come out from under the darkside and hope things work out for you.


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## Mike Smallwood (Nov 2, 2004)

*John !!*

Need some info, when you get a chance early next week can you call me please

Mike Smallwood
Commercial Construction Manager
Carpenter - Costin
781-922-3438


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Mike Smallwood said:


> Need some info, when you get a chance early next week can you call me please
> 
> Mike Smallwood
> Commercial Construction Manager
> ...


Sure, will do.


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## lx665 (Jan 26, 2001)

For what is worth...I do landscaping work for TRU and have not been paid by SBG. I spoke with them this week and it will be sometime before we get an answer on will and IF we will be paid.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

lx665 said:


> For what is worth...I do landscaping work for TRU and have not been paid by SBG. I spoke with them this week and it will be sometime before we get an answer on will and IF we will be paid.


Imagine that!! I sure the hell hope you didnt pay $750 to bid on there turf care. Allthough there national buying power could probally save you 3 to 5% on fertilizer, and the chance to bid "exclusively" on propertys they dont have under contract. Stop servicing all there accounts you have with them! You will not get paid what you are owed, it is cheaper to stay at home then to "lose" money .
These guys need to be held accountable. Looks like SMG found a good home were they will fit right in.    
Todd


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*lx665*

Sorry to hear another company has decided to cheat honest contractors out of money. As I have said in many posts this "area management" type business is not just in the snow removal industry. I have seen it in the building, product procurement and snow removal industries.

We all have to be beware. Thank you for passing the word. When the "area management company" can't find any one else to cheat out of money then they will go out of business.

Dave


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

lx665 said:


> For what is worth...I do landscaping work for TRU and have not been paid by SBG. I spoke with them this week and it will be sometime before we get an answer on will and IF we will be paid.


Truly sorry to hear this. I feel your pain brother! Looks like SMG teamed up with another real winner...It's BS fellas. It just isn't right.


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