# Did we get fleeced?



## toofless (Jan 21, 2010)

Hi everyone, sorry to jump onto this forum but I have a question for the experts:

I'm a member of an HOA board here in Northern Virginia. Obviously we have a plow contract, and it's with the maintenance company we use for most landscaping, repairs, etc. Our community has probably 1 mile worth of community-owned roadway w/ 6 total speed bumps, and includes about 90 common area parking spots. These are the only surfaces that fall under the plowing agreement (i.e. no sidewalks, homeowner driveways, etc). The contract also provides for a 2 hour minimum on truck visits (or "runs"), and a minimum for tonnage of salt. There is no variable rate dependent on the amount of snow that has fallen.

During late December we had a record snowfall here and the guys did a great job in keeping our streets plowed. According to historical weather data, we had 16" of snow on Saturday, then 0 inches on Sunday and 0 on Monday (so, all snowfall occurred on the first day). We received the invoice for this event and I was very surprised at the total. They billed for the following:


Saturday - 12 hours truck time, 2 tons salt
Sunday - 12 hours truck time, 2 tons salt
Monday - 4 hours truce time, 2 tons salt

I have difficulty believing that they spent 12 hours on the first day, but it could be that they made 6 runs, billing the 2 hour minimum on each run. That I don't have a huge problem with. What really astounds me is the 16 hours of truck time and salt treatment *after all of the snow was on the ground*. Again, all of this for probably a single mile worth of surface. It could be that I just don't understand the amount of time and material required for this type of maintenance and the amount of snowfall we incurred, but it just seems extreme to me. I will also note that most of the common area spots were occupied during this snow event.

Now, we really like this landscaping company and we plan to discuss with him the details of the work before we pay the invoice, but I am just mainly looking for a sanity check from the experts before I talk to the contractor.

Thanks so much, and sorry if I'm hijacking your forum a little here.


----------



## fireboy6413 (Sep 28, 2008)

He maybe be billing for snow drifts, salting etc, have you spoke with him and asked him why he billed for sun and mon


----------



## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

when we had our 18" storm we were at our one hoa doing cleanups for 4 days after the storm....if you dont want him there after the storm your place will look disasterous...


----------



## augerandblade (Jan 17, 2009)

tymusicSimple solution to your problem. Monitor all snowremoval and ice control activities :at different levels of accumulations. I been in the business since 1983 and a practice by some companies are to work under more than reasonable hourly/ or contract rates.( And especially on per push/ or salt application )to play games with the setup.payup To me it sounds like ya got fleeced and your only gonna know that if you keep an eye out on their snow removal activities.


----------



## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

iceyman;969471 said:


> when we had our 18" storm we were at our one hoa doing cleanups for 4 days after the storm....if you dont want him there after the storm your place will look disasterous...


I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## snowman55 (Nov 20, 2007)

I can see it. snow on sat but when 10pm? he would be plowing on sun. when weatherman says 18" it can acually be alot more if you add it up as you plow he may have plowed 4" 8 times but if it was allowed to pile up it compacts to 18". what were the temps? salt effectiveness deceases dramaticly with temp. talk to him, but I'll say that if you were happy with that much snow he most likely spent that much time and mat.


----------



## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

I can see your concern. I will say however that often times the snow accumulation is just a small piece of the picture.

After storms there can be snow blown off roofs of buildings and cars, or drifting, that would permit further clean up. If there is considerable traffic it will compress the snow into hard pack that could also require more ice melt and subsequent scraping. 

I can appreciate your prudence in this matter as I'm sure your contractor will too. It never hurts to ask.


----------



## mycirus (Dec 6, 2008)

I like the name. Toofless....Ha ha...

Anyway is it possible they used 2 trucks? 6 hours each truck times 2?


----------



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

First off,my take is that the "professional weather forecasters" give a "guesstimate" as to how much snow actually fell. We are 5 miles from where they get their "actual snow fall amounts" from and they are more way off than on in inches. Second, people hear "a ton of salt" and think holy.... thats a lot of salt which it isn't by any means. You can unload a V box spreader loaded with a ton of salt in a matter of minutes. Third, like someone else said, when did they start counting inches, at 10 or 11pm INTO the next day. Lastly, that's a major snowfall and unless they had a truck or two just sitting there continuously plowing your lot snow is going to build up and after a major snow storm like that its not uncommon to have several, several hours of opening the roads and lot back up to normal. I'm not saying one thing or another but there is more to snow plowing/removal, especially in a big storm than people think. This is exactly why we invested in on board cameras, now there are no questions!


----------



## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

I dont think you got "Fleeced" at all. The contractor did his job and you were and have been very happy with his service in the past. For an 18 inch storm a lot of time and material goes into the snow clearing and ice removal process. If we have storms of that capacity it is easy to keep doing cleanups of lots and roads for days after. Just like people stated drifting, thaw/refreeze cycles and vehicles bringing in snow off there cars.. I guess the only way to keep track of them is stay up 24 hours a day which snow professionals do all the time during a storm. they could have been there 2 or 3 times during the night while you were sleeping. Our job is to clear the snow and the only way to do that is start when begins and keep coming back again and again till it is over and then get a little sleep and head back out to do cleanups for the next couple of days. But ask him about the invoice and get an explanation, but I do find it ANNOYING when we get a heavy month of snow fall and my accounts get there invoice and they start to complain about the amount of the bill. I tell them I did not make it snow talk to the man above. But you dont see me calling my clients at the end of light months asking them to give me more money or questioning why my invoice to them is so low.


----------



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I agree with Burk. its very easy to assume things especially when your tucked away in a nice warm bed. After being up for sometimes days straight and functioning like a zombi there is nothing that pisses me off more is when you did your job, didnt pencil whip the customer and they still *****! I always wanted to take the complainer's along for a storm to really show them all the B.S. that comes with the territory. From the sounds of it you made up your minds by even asking and taking the effort to log onto here.


----------



## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

This comment " probably 1 mile worth " troubles me a bit.

Just like a ton sounds like a lot a mile sounds like lot but really isn't.

I would bet there is more than a mile of road at play here.


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

24 hours to plow 1 mile of roads and 90 parking spots. I don't know but that sounds a little extreme to me. Call your contractor and have him break it down for you before you go jumping to conclusions. If he plowed it every 2" he would have been there 9 times which would be 18 hours at 2 hours/time.


----------



## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

90 parking spots. 18" of 'documented' snowfall. Probably more like 24" and was falling Saturday into Sunday. Combine that with plowing around parked cars. And all those cars getting brushed off, then driving over all the snow, you're looking at significant clean up time and salt for all the packed snow. Also, may have been salt, scrape, salt, scrape on Sunday night/ monday. Ask your contractor, I'm sure everyone here is interested as to what is said.


----------



## toofless (Jan 21, 2010)

First, thanks to everyone who responded - I really do appreciate the input. It sounds like the overwhelming concensus is that the work was probably invoiced fairly.

cretebaby - it is truly at most a mile worth of roadway...70-80% of it is a single, circular road, and it takes me less than 10 minutes walk a lap.

now, y'all get back to sharpening your plows.


----------



## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

Depending on your hourly rate, you may have gotten fleeced. In our contracts we never bill hourly for this reason--> I never want a customer thinking we are milking hours. If you are going by hours maybe you should address the fluctuation of hours on different depths of snow in a 12 hour period. Then you would know about how much your cost would be ahead of time instead of possibly being milked for hours. Asking the guy to break down the service for you will go far and hopefully he clears it up for you. If he was just driving the main lanes during the snowfall and it took him an hour to make a few passes and lay down salt he could technically hit you with multiple "main road" visits of an hour with 2 hour minimums. Also. speading salt for one mile 450lbs/lane /mile per application is a pretty heavy application. WI uses 250 / lane mile & IL uses 300/lane mile, but they do repeat applications as they should and probably so should your crew so the salt spreading is actually pretty good for this event.


----------



## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

cretebaby;969595 said:


> This comment " probably 1 mile worth " troubles me a bit.
> 
> Just like a ton sounds like a lot a mile sounds like lot but really isn't.
> 
> I would bet there is more than a mile of road at play here.


I agree, this could mean 1/2 mile or 2 miles
I would question him nicely, see if he reacts oddly, hesitates, etc..... 
Then pay him, no matter what he says.
Then dedicate time to watch him, log his hours, etc.....( without him knowing )
Wait to see what he invoices you next time.

I've had skeptical people do that to me ( me not knowing )
They were actually embarrassed to tell me this
After that, they never questioned anything


----------



## DugHD (Nov 1, 2005)

Possibly your contractor is a member here. He should be replying shortly. :laughing: Just kidding. 
Dont listen to your weatherdata , they're as bad as the forecasters at being accurate. 
Good luck , you sound like a fair person and I hope the contractor wasnt fleecing you.


----------



## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

I'd say depending upon drifting conditions and how broken up those 90 or so parking spaces are it could very well be fair. Best suggestion, since you aren't taking issue with the actual service that was performed and you like him for landscaping pay the bill as is. Then for next season have a better snow spec sheet and get per inch/per push prices so you know what you're paying for before anything happens. In you spec sheet spell out EVERYTHING, leave NO GREY AREAS. Specify how often(in inches) the place is to be pushed, your overal expectation of service, spell out salt apps etc. The time you spend on the spec will pay huge dividends, in saved frustration and possibly money


----------



## Greenstar lawn (Jan 18, 2009)

cubanb343;969623 said:


> 90 parking spots. 18" of 'documented' snowfall. Probably more like 24" and was falling Saturday into Sunday. Combine that with plowing around parked cars. And all those cars getting brushed off, then driving over all the snow, you're looking at significant clean up time and salt for all the packed snow. Also, may have been salt, scrape, salt, scrape on Sunday night/ monday. Ask your contractor, I'm sure everyone here is interested as to what is said.


Dont forget to add all the people either shoveling or snow blowing the snow off there drive into the streets


----------



## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

Greenstar lawn;970803 said:


> Dont forget to add all the people either shoveling or snow blowing the snow off there drive into the streets


No doubt about it. There's a video on here somewhere of a guy plowing the road of a condo place and somebody hitting his truck with a snowblower.


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Sounds fair... If he did a great job and you have no complaints on service offer him a tip. Be a good customer and he'll move mountains for you when he has too.FYI 2 tons of salt per visit is reasonable considering once you scape it has to be reaplied.


----------



## snowman55 (Nov 20, 2007)

300# a lane mile? 5000ft x 10ft= 50000ft2 more than an acre. pretty light app that would do nothing in cold conditions and snow pack.90 car spaces 9ftx20ftx90 spots=16200 another 1/3 acre we can burn a 1tn per acre in below 0 with snow pack


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

snowman55;971830 said:


> pretty light app that would do nothing in cold conditions
> 
> Depending on traffic volume! I've found that many companies differ in rates of app. I have friends/colleagues in the business who spread twice as much as we do on similar sites and plow off excess. I always hate going into a parking lot at rolling on salt instead of slipping on ice... what's the advantage? Wasted product. I'm not on this site but I think it sounds reasonable if the parking spots were left to the end of the storm for their app. BTW we started testing on Thawroks this season and bet I could do the same area with 1 1/3 ton. including parking spots, in colder conditions. So far we 're loving it.


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

well being from NJ.. and your storm ended slightly ahead of ours up here...

They charged to plow or salt on saturday "during the storm"
Sunday they came in and finished all the plowing/salting "after the storm"
Monday most stuff re-froze and needed salt, probably didnt plow this day

Thats ALL the hours charged for the whole HOA?


----------



## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

JD Dave;969598 said:


> 24 hours to plow 1 mile of roads and 90 parking spots. I don't know but that sounds a little extreme to me. Call your contractor and have him break it down for you before you go jumping to conclusions. If he plowed it every 2" he would have been there 9 times which would be 18 hours at 2 hours/time.


I agree 24 hours for something you can walk in 10 minutes seems extreme. Sounds like they got billed 2 hours min for 12 trips (or 6 trips with 2 trucks) that lasted under 2 hours each trip.

If you like the guy and the job he did pay him, sounds like he is billing you within the limits of the contract even if its not the most ideal billing from your point of view.

Next year negotiate a per push/per inch or even a seasonal rate. If you go with per inch/push make sure somebody takes the time to actually measure and log the inches


----------



## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

BigLou80;972054 said:


> I agree 24 hours for something you can walk in 10 minutes seems extreme. Sounds like they got billed 2 hours min for 12 trips (or 6 trips with 2 trucks) that lasted under 2 hours each trip.
> 
> If you like the guy and the job he did pay him, sounds like he is billing you within the limits of the contract even if its not the most ideal billing from your point of view.
> 
> Next year negotiate a per push/per inch or even a seasonal rate. If you go with per inch/push make sure somebody takes the time to actually measure and log the inches


A deal is a deal!!!! I know for a fact that sometimes things get out of hand when it comes to the weather. What is considered blizzard conditions in Toronto is considered "just another day" in Barrie. Every event is unique, the O.P. said he is happy with the service received. He asked our professional opinions and we gave various opinions based on our own individual experiences.

It seems minimums were spelled out, no mention of maximums.

If the O.P. feels he was "fleeced", it was the agreed upon and signed contract that "fleeced" him..... Not the contractor....JMO..


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Bajak;972136 said:


> A deal is a deal!!!! I know for a fact that sometimes things get out of hand when it comes to the weather. What is considered blizzard conditions in Toronto is considered "just another day" in Barrie. Every event is unique, the O.P. said he is happy with the service received. He asked our professional opinions and we gave various opinions based on our own individual experiences.
> 
> It seems minimums were spelled out, no mention of maximums.
> 
> If the O.P. feels he was "fleeced", it was the agreed upon and signed contract that "fleeced" him..... Not the contractor....JMO..


I totoally agree and without being there it's very hard to say actually because all storms are very differnt. The best thing ot do is talk to the contractor before you jump to conclusion. I know we'd like to think that all contractors are perfectly honest but alot of contractors will try and see how much extra they can squeze out of the owner before they say something. JMO


----------



## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

Bajak;972136 said:


> A deal is a deal!!!! I know for a fact that sometimes things get out of hand when it comes to the weather. What is considered blizzard conditions in Toronto is considered "just another day" in Barrie. Every event is unique, the O.P. said he is happy with the service received. He asked our professional opinions and we gave various opinions based on our own individual experiences.
> 
> It seems minimums were spelled out, no mention of maximums.
> 
> If the O.P. feels he was "fleeced", it was the agreed upon and signed contract that "fleeced" him..... Not the contractor....JMO..


I know a deal is a deal did I ever say it wasn't?

I said 24 hours seemed high to me , but they should still pay the contractor. IMO his billing was inline with the contract. If they want different billing negotiate a different contract next year


----------

