# Starting up in the snow business again. Looking for thoughts



## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Hello all, I'm new to the forum,

I have worked in the snowremoval world before. I have shoveled, snowblowed, plowed, pushed snow with loaders and almost everything in between.

This past year with the winter storm "Sylvia" I got called to dig out a customer of mine. They had been buried for days. (This was a simple call out as their snow contractor wasn't able to help)

The job took 1.75hrs to complete with my 10.5hp 30" cut snow blower.

The job was in a high value development where every home is at least 275k. There are about 130homes.

I believe that if I can set up a crew of blowers we could take most of the homes in the development by catering to their beautiful neighborhood.

My idea currently is to use a compact wheel loader with a snowblower, break everyone out by a certain time and then have a couple snowblowers clean up the rest after everyone goes to work. We will also perform sidewalk cleanups.

I see that a couple others have done that here on the forum. In my area I see all residential work done with plow trucks. In this neighborhood the driveways are long, with well manicured lawns, and no place to put the snow requiring the drives to be back bladed first. And then there is the issue of yard damage.

I haven't ever operated a wheel loader "with a snowblower" before, so my question is lets say a 200 to 300ft long x2 car wide driveways What would the expected time to snowblow it be.

Would we be better with a tractor, or a loader. I have doubts about using a skid steer. Considering visibility issues and damage to the driveways with it.

I see guys saying their snowblowing 150 drives in 4 to 6 hrs that's averaged to about 25\hr.

I have another contractor that I work with a lot, he owns the biggest high flow caterpillar skid steer made. And he likes the idea of servicing these homes as well. He is already in snow removal but has trucks a ways away from here. And I know we can be more effective with blowers.

I know there is more, but formatting this from a mobile phone is a bit tough lol
Any other thoughts?


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

I attached a before and after pic of the driveway


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I'd be willing to bet a good sum of money that most if not all responses you get will tell you to buy an ag tractor and inverted blower.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I'd be willing to bet a good sum of money that most if not all responses you get will tell you to buy an ag tractor and inverted blower.


Unless your young, that would get old fast. And where are ya, because that's an average price of a home here?


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Hello guys, thank you for the responses.

I'm not old still a lot left in me at only 35.

And I'm the old man of the group of guys. Lol

We are all in upstate ny, where most of the affordable homes are less than 100k most can't afford more than 70k. 

If you make 40k a year here it is a lot of money.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

What's your snowfall average annually?


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

On average we receive about 101" per year. Obviously some years more and some less.

In the past and still current we have about 14 events a season that need plowing. 

Depths from 2-4" (very common) about 7
Depths from 6-12" (about 3 or 4)
Depths of greater than 12" (about 1 to 2 maybe 3)

I think the inverted snowblower is a very nice way to handle 75% of our storms. I know that for a fact in our bigger storms that we will have huge issues with clearing times making it a pr mess with the customers using the inverted snowblower. I have more than enough experience to know driving a machine over a deep snow fall can cause it to become hung up and slow the process to a standstill if not careful.

I also saw a video of a deep snowfall cleanup (with inverted snowblower) it took about 8 min to do that driveway. It would normally take about 1min for the guy. 

If that was the case and he had 100 drives his route would take at least double. 

I think in those storms we would be best to switch to a "regular" style snowblower.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

@Mark Oomkes averages something like 120 inches a year and he's got 2 inverted blower tractors. Look at the driveway guys in Quebec...stupid snowfall amounts per season and per storm. Ask @Neige. If you don't use an inverted there you're not competitive. Your kind of snowfall I don't think I'd consider anything but.

And I'm not talking an inverted blower tractor the size of the one @NickSnow&Mow has on here. 100hp plus engine horsepower, 80-90 inch blowers, not tinker toys meant for a few driveways that a kid is running.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

PRCS said:


> On average we receive about 101" per year. Obviously some years more and some less.
> 
> In the past and still current we have about 14 events a season that need plowing.
> 
> ...


The inverted is the only way to go. I'm in NY average storms the inverted will crush you as far as performance. If you got enough of them you could have a problem competing.

Most with a inverted will take them for $10. to $12. per drive. The numbers are in some threads we discussed this not to long ago somewhere. Really 1 min. I would like to see the video you watched. Most clients are not going to want to wait for 12'' to fall. Yes it is not recommended to back over 12'' of snow.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

@FredG

Are you saying the pay per "blow" with an inverted is only about 10-12 dollars?

From what it looked like your saying you agree that the inverted is the way to go. But the bigger storms will cut its productivity correct? Which I would tend to agree with.

Here is a video of a guy doing driveways. 




The second drive he does is a half a circle real fast and simple. A couple of the others are back in and blow outs. Minus any camera tricks they look like he takes about a min. (My estimation)


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

At least he blew some snow on the car. And dragged the one driveway into the street. I do roads, so I find that irritating. But that's just me.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

From what I've seen people post, anything 1-12 inches production rates are relatively consistent. After that it slows down a little, but there still isn't a faster way to do it.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> From what I've seen people post, anything 1-12 inches production rates are relatively consistent. After that it slows down a little, but there still isn't a faster way to do it.


All couple years ago we had a 16" + snow fall. Our inverted blowers serviced their routes twice before most competitors Truck routes were serviced once. Our routes at that time were at about 6 hours, the storm caused the routes to take about 1.5 hours longer. Inverted for drives is a very good way to go. Just sayin.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Herm Witte said:


> All couple years ago we had a 16" + snow fall. Our inverted blowers serviced their routes twice before most competitors Truck routes were serviced once. Our routes at that time were at about 6 hours, the storm caused the routes to take about 1.5 hours longer. Inverted for drives is a very good way to go. Just sayin.


Completely forgot about you having inverted blowers also.

See op, they're about the best option possible for tight driveway routes.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

PRCS said:


> @FredG
> 
> Are you saying the pay per "blow" with an inverted is only about 10-12 dollars?
> 
> ...


lol I know how they work. I thought you were talking about a video with 12'' of snow. Yes large tight routes are being taken for $10.00 per trip with a inverted.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Our last storm here we had about 30" of snowfall in about 24hrs. Everyone was fighting to get their driveways done. The residential plows were we not able to bust the end of the driveways with the 5' banks. Snowblowing took hrs. 

I can't believe people are willing to do a driveway for 10-12$. Im not willing to work for pennies and I can't contribute to a market where everyone undercuts the other to work for a penny. 

Just because it may take 2-4min to complete doesn't mean the job is charged less. If the market is $20-30 for a plow then I have to charge that for a blower. 

We have this problem where I work. Everyone competed for a contract and undercut each other till the final contract is 4$\cut for lawn services. This is easily a $75\cut yard (2 riders, and a weedwacker for 30min onsite) It's rediculous, the contractor has to carry 1mil general liability and they won't even make enough on the site over the year to pay for the insurance. 

I have been seeing the PXPL blowers I'm really liking that. 

Thank you guys!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

The problem isn't the drives...it's the walks that take time and man power, even with snowblowers.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Except at 10 bucks a drive per trip you're grossing $300 an hour. Especially if they are literally right next to each other, maybe more.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Except at 10 bucks a drive per trip you're grossing $300 an hour. Especially if they are literally right next to each other, maybe more.


And the operating cost of a 100hp tractor and 96"<> blower is......


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

What will it cost for the tractor, blower, what else he needs, and insurance. Before he does a drive.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

PRCS said:


> Our last storm here we had about 30" of snowfall in about 24hrs. Everyone was fighting to get their driveways done. The residential plows were we not able to bust the end of the driveways with the 5' banks. Snowblowing took hrs.
> 
> I can't believe people are willing to do a driveway for 10-12$. Im not willing to work for pennies and I can't contribute to a market where everyone undercuts the other to work for a penny.
> 
> ...


 If you got 5' piles out by the road you must be talking about the unprepared or don't have a service provider that can keep up. We plow with the storm. If it takes 25hrs in a truck or piece of equipment it is what it is.

It's not about low balling with a inverted, It's the 2k or more earnings for the day because of your production rate. Guys with inverted are serious players in residential snow removal.


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## Arrowbrook 99 (Mar 16, 2017)

PRCS said:


> Hello guys, thank you for the responses.
> 
> I'm not old still a lot left in me at only 35.
> 
> ...


Where upstate? I live in ulster county NY. Wow I can't imagine a home for 100k. Average here is 350k and forget about taxes. I'm sure you thought of it but the only think I would be concerned about is investing money in equipment and not have the customers to make the investment pay off, as you said not a high income area.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Arrowbrook 99 said:


> Where upstate? I live in ulster county NY. Wow I can't imagine a home for 100k. Average here is 350k and forget about taxes. I'm sure you thought of it but the only think I would be concerned about is investing money in equipment and not have the customers to make the investment pay off, as you said not a high income area.


Most in western NY refer to upstate NY not that its wrong. In a 3 county area you could live in a modest home for 60k to 80k. Unfortunately 40k per year is a decent income west of you. You would have to be with a trade union or on Davis Baker to make close to 100k.

My sons friend that he went to college with lives down there west of NYC somewhere bought a house for $450k. When he visits his wife and him drool over my house the size of the kitchen baths etc. I got around $125k in my house. Taxes are about $5500. My pension is 48k per year and my wife makes about 50ish. And whatever the construction and snow net. If your a good earner you can live large. lol


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

5500 for taxes....we've got a half million dollar 8000 square foot commercial shop that is barely that.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

You should live here, a two bedroom ranch on one acre, I'm over $8000.00 a year in taxes.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> 5500 for taxes....we've got a half million dollar 8000 square foot commercial shop that is barely that.


This is NY, Suxs. Your shop would be probably $15 to 18k here if it was in City limits. You can live in certain area's not desirable but a decent home would only cost you $2k. If they don't know you things will grow legs. A friends son just payed maybe just under $300k for a multi shop unit all fenced in nice big shop put a 988 in there pays somewhere around $12k. He's only 23 and has a guy with big bucks backing him. He seems to be doing Ok because he is bonded by his backer. He spent a ton of money at one time. The word in the sand box he still got to make the grade.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Randall Ave said:


> You should live here, a two bedroom ranch on one acre, I'm over $8000.00 a year in taxes.


Holy ****. That's all I have to say.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> You should live here, a two bedroom ranch on one acre, I'm over $8000.00 a year in taxes.


Bummer...... $1800.00, 20yo, 1600Sq ranch w/full basement, 2400sq shop, 2a


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> You should live here, a two bedroom ranch on one acre, I'm over $8000.00 a year in taxes.


I'm not paying these high taxes when I'm to old to earn money. I'll go down there by Troy Landry on the swamp with the Cajuns. lol


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BUFF said:


> Bummer...... $1800.00, 20yo, 1600Sq ranch w/full basement, 2400sq shop, 2a


The strange thing is your home probably is worth more where you are than here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

PRCS said:


> Are you saying the pay per "blow" with an inverted is only about 10-12 dollars?


If they are seasonal, yes. And if you're in an area that averages 100", prices aren't going to be much if any higher for driveways you see on the video you posted.



PRCS said:


> From what it looked like your saying you agree that the inverted is the way to go. But the bigger storms will cut its productivity correct? Which I would tend to agree with.


We haven't had a decent storm since we started with our blowers, but those who have been using them state you start losing productivity at aboot the 18" mark.



PRCS said:


> Just because it may take 2-4min to complete doesn't mean the job is charged less. If the market is $20-30 for a plow then I have to charge that for a blower.


Absolutely, but I like I said, I'll bet your market isn't at $20-30 a drive.



PRCS said:


> We have this problem where I work. Everyone competed for a contract and undercut each other till the final contract is 4$\cut for lawn services. This is easily a $75\cut yard (2 riders, and a weedwacker for 30min onsite) It's rediculous, the contractor has to carry 1mil general liability and they won't even make enough on the site over the year to pay for the insurance.


What does insurance for an entire year have to do with it? Is this place the only account the contractor does? What is a weedwacker? 1 million liability is nothing. 1 million should be a bare minimum any contractor carries, at least in the snow biz.

BTW, what makes you think a "normal" blower is going to be faster than an inverted? Other than maybe for those 5' banks (which I have a hard time believing).


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> And the operating cost of a 100hp tractor and 96"<> blower is......


Virtually non-existent compared to a truck.

Maybe $1k a year.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> The problem isn't the drives...it's the walks that take time and man power, even with snowblowers.


Separate crews.

Most of our driveway customers don't sign up for sidewalks.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

FredG said:


> The strange thing is your home probably is worth more where you are than here.


It's not strange..... why would it be....
$550-600K


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

PRCS said:


> We are all in upstate ny, where most of the affordable homes are less than 100k most can't afford more than 70k.
> 
> If you make 40k a year here it is a lot of money.


And you think the market will bear $20-30 a plow?

A lot depends on your trigger depth. I'm assuming you're figuring at least a 2" trigger. Otherwise you're low on your estimated number of trips.


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## Arrowbrook 99 (Mar 16, 2017)

FredG said:


> Most in western NY refer to upstate NY not that its wrong. In a 3 county area you could live in a modest home for 60k to 80k. Unfortunately 40k per year is a decent income west of you. You would have to be with a trade union or on Davis Baker to make close to 100k.
> 
> My sons friend that he went to college with lives down there west of NYC somewhere bought a house for $450k. When he visits his wife and him drool over my house the size of the kitchen baths etc. I got around $125k in my house. Taxes are about $5500. My pension is 48k per year and my wife makes about 50ish. And whatever the construction and snow net. If your a good earner you can live large. lol


I hear you. The cost of living here is ridiculous. Taxes are 10-12k. Some homes more. And yes this is only upstate to city folks. They consider this the sticks.lol. My wife refuses to move one more mile further up. Maybe Pennsylvania. I don't want to pay these taxes when I'm older. I'm also retired with a pension and also do landscaping and snowplow. But yeah if your fortunate enough to have a state or union job you can live very well. Otherwise I know it's tough. I'm sure a lot of people don't want to spend money on things like lawn care and snow plowing. Here nobody wants to do anything themselves. In a few weeks they'll be landscape trucks out everywhere.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BUFF said:


> It's not strange..... why would it be....
> $550-600K


Because a 1600sqft ranch would bring around $150k depending on acreage. $600k here your Galasano or similar living in 6 to 8k sq ft maybe on 10 acres or more.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

BUFF said:


> And the operating cost of a 100hp tractor and 96"<> blower is......


Significantly less than that. I don't have one, but I would guess that the fuel and operators wages would be the most expensive parts. $40-50 an hour?

Mark? Herm?


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

FredG said:


> If you got 5' piles out by the road you must be talking about the unprepared or don't have a service provider that can keep up. We plow with the storm. If it takes 25hrs in a truck or piece of equipment it is what it is.
> 
> It's not about low balling with a inverted, It's the 2k or more earnings for the day because of your production rate. Guys with inverted are serious players in residential snow removal.


A lot of providers out this way couldn't keep up with the storm. We didn't get serviced at work till 9pm at night and had over 20" of snow. Our banks were enourmous. My banks at home were bad, I was working all day the day it started, and didn't get back till midnight. It took a lot to clean it up. I took some pics with my vehicle that I used to push the bank a little bit. This was so I could swipe my gas can to use in the work snowblower cause we had no gas or a can at work.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Arrowbrook 99 said:


> Where upstate? I live in ulster county NY. Wow I can't imagine a home for 100k. Average here is 350k and forget about taxes. I'm sure you thought of it but the only think I would be concerned about is investing money in equipment and not have the customers to make the investment pay off, as you said not a high income area.


I suppose I should clarify. Im actually in central ny. We always say upstate forgetting that NYC considers every one north of the upstate.

I know that I can recoup the costs. I have talked with more providers out my way. I believe the numbers I'm planning with are feasible here.

While this area isn't a "high income area" I'm looking to work in a housing development that contains very high income earners for this area.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

PRCS said:


> View attachment 171749
> View attachment 171750
> 
> 
> A lot of providers out this way couldn't keep up with the storm. We didn't get serviced at work till 9pm at night and had over 20" of snow. Our banks were enourmous. My banks at home were bad, I was working all day the day it started, and didn't get back till midnight. It took a lot to clean it up. I took some pics with my vehicle that I used to push the bank a little bit. This was so I could swipe my gas can to use in the work snowblower cause we had no gas or a can at work.


I'm not ragging. But I don't see why they couldn't keep up. You take on the work you can handle. And if that kinda snow is forecast, you go over the equipment, make sure everything is in line ready to roll.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Seasonal prices should be higher than a per instance because there has to be some fudge factor in the equation since we take on the risk of the unknown.



Mark Oomkes said:


> If they are seasonal, yes. And if you're in an area that averages 100", prices aren't going to be much if any higher for driveways you see on the video you posted.
> 
> We haven't had a decent storm since we started with our blowers, but those who have been using them state you start losing productivity at aboot the 18" mark.
> 
> ...


I agree that 75-80%of the time the inverted style will be king! How ever with the huge banks we can get from our storms I will either have to push/cut through them with a blade, or use a pxpl style snowblower. So I'm thinking I may just go with that style to begin with. Still figuring it out.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Randall Ave said:


> I'm not ragging. But I don't see why they couldn't keep up. You take on the work you can handle. And if that kinda snow is forecast, you go over the equipment, make sure everything is in line ready to roll.


Haha lol there are a lot of idiots out in this area! Maybe I'm one of them, but I don't think so. They run some ragged equipment that isn't ready for what's coming, and their skills are subpar! People went days with out a plow because the providers couldn't do it.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Virtually non-existent compared to a truck.
> 
> Maybe $1k a year.


I don't have a use for a machine in the off season, so I will go for a short term lease. It will cause me to spend about 18k for the season. So my estimated cost for the machine is about $130\hr before an operator. That also doesn't account for fuel, or insurance. Just to have it. I also need to get the snowblower which I will own on day one.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Seasonal prices should be higher than per occurance for a fudge factor. 

Really. Do tell. They're paying for a seasonal. The AVERAGE WINTER SEASONAL.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Mark Oomkes said:


> And you think the market will bear $20-30 a plow?
> 
> A lot depends on your trigger depth. I'm assuming you're figuring at least a 2" trigger. Otherwise you're low on your estimated number of trips.


I was actually thinking about a 4" trigger to reduce passes, and the extended cost to increased passes made per season. Unless the people would like it to be less. Then I will consider 3"


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Seasonal prices should be higher than per occurance for a fudge factor.
> 
> Really. Do tell. They're paying for a seasonal. The AVERAGE WINTER SEASONAL.


It's all a numbers game. How many times will we receive (x amount of snowfalls between A and B depths times the cost) plus (y amount of snowfalls between C and D depths times a factored cost) plus (z amount of snowfalls between E and F times that cost) add it all together to figure a reasonable seasonal estimate for services.

So yes a Sesonal snowfall, but factored for extra labor here and there to be fair both ways.

not trying to step on toes


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

To each their own.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

What type of tractor are you renting short term for $18k?
The pxpl is a great blower, but only works good on the NH bi-directional.
Years back I though as you are, I'll rent. Ya right. 
Instead bought a new tractor & blower. FYI the blower is almost $20k
Then it's so efficient that when you have a break down your back up plan is?
I had an extra kubota M100 with Normand inverted blower plus 3 skid loader blowers if needed.
Oh, and wheel loaders big and small.
As far as pricing, you may not want to lower the number, but density is what you're after.
Side note, I have several $400-500k mulch blower trucks and yes the number is cheaper than most.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

PRCS said:


> It's all a numbers game. How many times will we receive (x amount of snowfalls between A and B depths times the cost) plus (y amount of snowfalls between C and D depths times a factored cost) plus (z amount of snowfalls between E and F times that cost) add it all together to figure a reasonable seasonal estimate for services.
> 
> So yes a Sesonal snowfall, but factored for extra labor here and there to be fair both ways.
> 
> not trying to step on toes


What they are getting at is seasonal is an advantage because you get paid in full, up front, before any snow falls. So, a lot of guys on here who have been doing this a lot longer and have much bigger companies than I do, will tell you that seasonal does not get upcharged. I had the same opinion as you until very recently. But if you look at the points made in other threads about seasonal customers, you will probably change the way you look at it. You need to know the averages for your area, and also how many trips that average requires, to get a grasp on the seasonal rate.

FWIW I would be scared to death to do a short term lease with the kind of rate you are talking about. $130 per hour before insurance and a really really expensive blower, is not leaving a margin worth the risk in my opinion. Others may have different opinions. You could purchase a tractor that sat all summer for monthly payments over a whole year, that would be half the lease price you are talking about.


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## Arrowbrook 99 (Mar 16, 2017)

PRCS said:


> I suppose I should clarify. Im actually in central ny. We always say upstate forgetting that NYC considers every one north of the upstate.
> 
> I know that I can recoup the costs. I have talked with more providers out my way. I believe the numbers I'm planning with are feasible here.
> 
> ...


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

blowerman said:


> What type of tractor are you renting short term for $18k?
> The pxpl is a great blower, but only works good on the NH bi-directional.


Thank you for your post.

The 18k is on a NH T5 series. The reason for such a high cost is they factor minimal usage at 100hrs\month. So about 3k a month for 6 months

I'm thinking about the NH bidirectionals. I'm going to take a trip "maybe" today to look at the possibilities.



blowerman said:


> Years back I though as you are, I'll rent. Ya right.
> Instead bought a new tractor & blower. FYI the blower is almost $20k
> 
> [\quote]
> ...


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

ktfbgb said:


> What they are getting at is seasonal is an advantage because you get paid in full, up front, before any snow falls. So, a lot of guys on here who have been doing this a lot longer and have much bigger companies than I do, will tell you that seasonal does not get upcharged. I had the same opinion as you until very recently. But if you look at the points made in other threads about seasonal customers, you will probably change the way you look at it. You need to know the averages for your area, and also how many trips that average requires, to get a grasp on the seasonal rate.
> 
> FWIW I would be scared to death to do a short term lease with the kind of rate you are talking about. $130 per hour before insurance and a really really expensive blower, is not leaving a margin worth the risk in my opinion. Others may have different opinions. You could purchase a tractor that sat all summer for monthly payments over a whole year, that would be half the lease price you are talking about.


Thank you for the thoughts, all parts of what you said are floating in my mind. I'm a ways from a decision, still thinking through it all.

Another reason I'm thinking about a wheel loader at least I can have it and use it all year.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

PRCS said:


> Thank you for the thoughts, all parts of what you said are floating in my mind. I'm a ways from a decision, still thinking through it all.
> 
> Another reason I'm thinking about a wheel loader at least I can have it and use it all year.


It appears to me your mind set is on severe conditions. I got a airport snowblower. It's been used a couple times but sits most of the time. You need to concentrate on 2'' storms. JMO


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

FredG said:


> It appears to me your mind set is on severe conditions. I got a airport snowblower. It's been used a couple times but sits most of the time. You need to concentrate on 2'' storms. JMO


I understand that primarily our storm falls will fall within the normal abilities of an inverted. I just know when it hits the fan I want to still be able to maintain my responsibility to all of my customers per my agreement. "Many judge on a single fault in the shadow of much success" just trying to use some estimated calculations to factor for that.

I can see this will be an amazing opportunity to continue to foster. I just wish I hadn't just really thought about it.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Just don't get hung up on getting equipment to handle once in a decade storm. Have a plan to handle them, but don't buy specifically for those events. We get very similar snowfall averages as what you posted. And there isn't a single provider here that I'm aware of that runs a big blower on Residential's. Would it be more efficient? Absolutely. 

If you want to join the ranks of guys using a big machine with an inverted blower to do a tight driveway route, don't let the freak storm scare you away from setting up that way. If you get an inverted, and for some reason don't plow with the storm and end up with a 5' berm in front of the drive, the FEL on a machine that size will clear the berm in like 4 scoops. So it might add an additional minute or two max to each driveway. But how often will you not plow with the storm and allow a city berm to get that big? Not often.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

PRCS said:


> I understand that primarily our storm falls will fall within the normal abilities of an inverted. I just know when it hits the fan I want to still be able to maintain my responsibility to all of my customers per my agreement. "Many judge on a single fault in the shadow of much success" just trying to use some estimated calculations to factor for that.
> 
> I can see this will be an amazing opportunity to continue to foster. I just wish I hadn't just really thought about it.


It's Okay to want equipment for severe conditions. Other charges have to be applied to your contract. Our last storm in march we had probably 14 hrs with a skid at $125. per hr (clients only) between two big complex same owner. Still plowed conventionally just a lot of stacking, Moving piles, drifts between cars, Clearing dumpster pads etc. If you were not a client and could not get opened up and hired me I would want more or I would probably settle for the rest and relaxation. Unless it was cash..lol


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Significantly less than that. I don't have one, but I would guess that the fuel and operators wages would be the most expensive parts. $40-50 an hour?
> 
> Mark? Herm?


I checked a week or so. I barely spend $500.00 a year maintaining the tractors that we have purchased new. One has plowed for 7 years, one for 6. Be clear I am talking about maintaining the tractors. Plows wear and break as a result you are not going to stop spending repair dollars on plows.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Why would you spend 18k to rent a tractor for 6 months? Take that 18k, use half as a down payment, and the other half to make your payments to own it. $750 a month and 9k down will buy a very nice and new tractor.

of course that's saying you'll get the hourly rate you want. Which won't happen. But quick math. 100"/6" events is 16.6 per season. That's low in my opinion but either way. From what I've seen guys that run these things say a 4-5 hour route is best. So 2 minutes per drive is 30 per hour. Times 4 is 120. Yes this is assuming great route density but even if it's not perfect you still have the 5th hour that isn't being figured in. 120 drives times $10 per drive is $1200 per event. Times 16.6 (this is low I think) is 20k for the season. Say it's a 5 hour run. You're doing $240 an hour.

I wish I could get pickups to gross half that. Similar investment up front to a tractor/inverted blower, and substantially more expensive to own and operate.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Hello guys,

I have been thinking more and more. After accessing the neighborhoods more I have figured out a reasonable annual contract. Inline with much of what others are doing out here. I looked at ownership as opposed to a lease, and it makes it much more affordable and cash flows better. I'm now in the phase of lining up customers for the next year. When do you all start "signing contracts"

I'm looking at several billing options. 

1 is a seasonal contract with the whole value paid in the beginning. 

Another where the customer pays for 1 plowing per month if the contract upfront and then any actual services above the one per month billed. 

And of course the one that will get serviced at the end out of the route (cash customers)

Another thought I have is subcontracting for other contractors after my route is completed. How do you guys work that? An hourly rate or a per piece charge?

Do you find that it is needed at all?

I have also decided to get a slightly smaller machine about 65hp costing about 50k instead of 100hp for 76k


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

You'll regret downsizing with those snowfall totals. There is a noticeable difference in videos alone from 60-100hp.

@Mark Oomkes has an 85 and 100 hp tractor and more than once I've heard him complain about running the 85 hp and it feeling under powered.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

John_DeereGreen said:


> You'll regret downsizing with those snowfall totals. There is a noticeable difference in videos alone from 60-100hp.
> 
> @Mark Oomkes has an 85 and 100 hp tractor and more than once I've heard him complain about running the 85 hp and it feeling under powered.


Hmmm have to keep thinking thank you, it's coming down to cash flow and retaining enough to make this well worth it. Before I make the plunge. Have to convince my dad with numbers it will be good


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What kind of tractors are you looking at for those prices?

JDG is correct, I would never go less than 100, wish I hadn't even bought the 85.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

I 


Mark Oomkes said:


> What kind of tractors are you looking at for those prices?
> 
> JDG is correct, I would never go less than 100, wish I hadn't even bought the 85.


I found a brand new John Deere 5100e with loader for 47k

My goal was to have this payed off very early on in the 2nd or3rd year. I didn't want to bind up a loan for 8 years even tho this cash flows a lot better that way.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

PRCS said:


> I
> 
> I found a brand new John Deere 5100e with loader for 47k
> 
> My goal was to have this payed off very early on in the 2nd or3rd year. I didn't want to bind up a loan for 8 years even tho this cash flows a lot better that way.


You are way over thinking this deal. You're willing to rent for 18g per year but not willing to borrow 47 say over 5. Young man you need to think a lot more clearly than you are. Lots of good info has been given. Don't build your business on worst case scenarios, build it for normal scenarios, don't over commit, plan to service your accounts in 5/6 hours, have a back up plan and you will survive your storms. An 85 hp inverted will suffice 100 better. Good luck.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Herm Witte said:


> You are way over thinking this deal. You're willing to rent for 18g per year but not willing to borrow 47 say over 5. Young man you need to think a lot more clearly than you are. Lots of good info has been given. Don't build your business on worst case scenarios, build it for normal scenarios, don't over commit, plan to service your accounts in 5/6 hours, have a back up plan and you will survive your storms. An 85 hp inverted will suffice 100 better. Good luck.


Hello Herm thank you for the thoughts.

Yes there is a lot of thinking here.

The reason I'm ok with 18k for a lease is if I have the cash up front, and resolve my accounts through the season. My extended risk is significantly decreased. My credit is not the best so I can't "easily" gain the credit needed to secure a "loan." To "run" the numbers for a purchase makes it a lot easier than a lease. But the risk is greater to my parents who might "back the loan with me" if we go through on the purchase.

I know at this point that a full route, and at the rates for seasonal contracts will make this profitable.

I fact I can have the machine paid off in only 2 years. The overthinking is just to show my father I have thought of every contingency possible to handle the Inherant risks he will face.

I know he is second guessing the feasibility of this plan because we have never been able to service this many accounts. So that's what's going on in my world.

Right now I have a potential route that would take no more than 25 min of travel from one end to the other With heavily dense neighborhoods along the entire route. Over 3k homes and $400 per season norm for rates.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

If you haven't established a good credit rating yet I would definitely buy instead of lease. I would not be in any big hurry to pay it off. You want to have at least 4 to 5 years of steady on time payments. This will solve any credit issues. Good Luck


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I'm not trying to be the wise guy here, can I ask how old are you? It says you want to start up again, but you need your parents to cosign. If you rent, and have a low snow accumulation season, can you make ends meet?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Yes the title and the original post led me to believe that you had done this for a long time, then retired, and now want to do it again. But it appears that is not the case.

Like was said earlier, don't overthink it. This goes both ways including not overthinking how many customers you can actually get your first year. If your a very good salesman you can expect to get maybe 20% of the customers you contact. As a norm, mail flyers and door hangers usually yield 1-3%. If you want 100 customers for a full route I would say if you got half that many your first year that would be outstanding.

Operating costs are always way more than you think they will be. You won't know a true operating cost until you have a full route and then run it with that equipment combination for a couple years. Until then it's an educated guess. Guess higher than the original numbers you come up with. And trust me, brand new equipment can have catastrophic breakdowns. Can you afford to foot the bill to rent or pay someone to do your route WHEN the new equipment has a breakdown? Also all the different insurances you need will cost more than you think. Whatever deductibles you have on those policies, speaking from experience, you need to have the cash in the bank at all times to cover those deductibles. 

When you make a capitol purchase for your business, as long as you get a reasonable interest rate, there is no benefit to paying off the equipment that quick. Maybe figure out what the financing costs per year and make one additional payment to cover that. Other than that, you want that money to cash flow the business.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Potential route? Don't you think you need contracts locked up signed? I'm sure your Parents would be more at ease. As a FOG potential won't cut it. Never count on work you don't have. If your a good contractor it maybe a challenge to get HO to switch from there current service provider. 

Everybody just don't take the lowest bid. I don't follow the news in your area, There been a lot of crooks in Buffalo, Rochester west of you in jail for pulling scams on driveways, Be careful on pulling the trigger on equipment especially on a inverted without work locked up. Again In the residential market guys with inverted are serious players. Not suggesting you could not handle it.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

FredG said:


> If you haven't established a good credit rating yet I would definitely buy instead of lease. I would not be in any big hurry to pay it off. You want to have at least 4 to 5 years of steady on time payments. This will solve any credit issues. Good Luck


Yes that is correct it will be better for the rating. Initially I figured to pay for a lease would be less risk. But then I started broadening my thoughts as I develop it all.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Randall Ave said:


> I'm not trying to be the wise guy here, can I ask how old are you? It says you want to start up again, but you need your parents to cosign. If you rent, and have a low snow accumulation season, can you make ends meet?


I'm 35, I have been planning this around contracts paid on the front side, as suggested by everyone on here. That resolves the money issue incase the snow doesn't fly kinda.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

ktfbgb said:


> Yes the title and the original post led me to believe that you had done this for a long time, then retired, and now want to do it again. But it appears that is not the case.
> 
> Like was said earlier, don't overthink it. This goes both ways including not overthinking how many customers you can actually get your first year. If your a very good salesman you can expect to get maybe 20% of the customers you contact. As a norm, mail flyers and door hangers usually yield 1-3%. If you want 100 customers for a full route I would say if you got half that many your first year that would be outstanding.
> 
> ...


I had a snowblowing (30" snowblower)route for several years, 14-18 driveways. I grew it and it was great. But I had a major medical event one day and that was the end of it. I didn't recover for a year. Since then I have entertained starting back up. Since I had to help so many during Sylvia. With the learning from others (on here) and seeing other blowing systems about "new" ways to do things I see that it is a lot more feasible to take care of a greater quantity of customers to make a difference.

I plan on acquiring this equipment once I develop the contracts and they are paid.

I know I have to start now with all of this not later. Just like farming this has to be cultivated for a future harvest.

I'm starting the marketing and contract signing right now. I have already got customers that want to sign on, I just haven't completed the paperwork.

I have been in direct communication with my insurance agent to make sure I have my self covered from general liability, and insurance directly covering the tractor and the blower.

The money for this will be kept on hand in an account but my intent is to keep it separate if I need it so be it, but I wanted to create the buffer to resolve anxiety for my dad.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

FredG said:


> Potential route? Don't you think you need contracts locked up signed? I'm sure your Parents would be more at ease. As a FOG potential won't cut it. Never count on work you don't have. If your a good contractor it maybe a challenge to get HO to switch from there current service provider.
> 
> Everybody just don't take the lowest bid. I don't follow the news in your area, There been a lot of crooks in Buffalo, Rochester west of you in jail for pulling scams on driveways, Be careful on pulling the trigger on equipment especially on a inverted without work locked up. Again In the residential market guys with inverted are serious players. Not suggesting you could not handle it.


It is potential because I haven't locked in the customers, I will only move when ready.

At the current steps that I'm in, I know this will work financially. However if I go and get all these contracts, get the cash upfront and my parents decided not to back it, then I will have a problem. That is why I'm trying to reduce the risks as much as possible. That's why I said I'm starting over again.

Talking with other snow contractor friend in the area he said the area wants snowblowing but no one offers it. He said this will make a killing here. I told him I would be available for subcontract work if he needed it. He said with Sylvia he would have loved the help and happily paid.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

If I asked my dad for this kind of help at 35 I'm she he'd about die laughing at me.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> If I asked my dad for this kind of help at 35 I'm she he'd about die laughing at me.


You mean I only got to laugh at my kids and they will quit asking? lol


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Well he said he had some type of health issue. We all do what we can for our kids. But I don't know if he will have that much profit the first year. It sounds like he wants to get contracts, get paid, then go get equipment?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Randall Ave said:


> It sounds like he wants to get contracts, get paid, then go get equipment?


In a perfect world.............


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> In a perfect world.............


The world is perrrrrrfect when you have the correct Kool-Aid...


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

Randall Ave said:


> Well he said he had some type of health issue. We all do what we can for our kids. But I don't know if he will have that much profit the first year. It sounds like he wants to get contracts, get paid, then go get equipment?


Thank you for reading, everyone has something. While I have had a lot of issues that have slowed me down "almost dying, and then a recent cancer scare." I don't let them hold me down. I'm doing all I can.

Yes contracts then money and equipment. This is a "start up all over" so it is the beginning. I have little cash right now. But I have a drive like a tank. And hundreds of customers over the years in my work. But they aren't along my intended route to leverage. But I will make the connections.

In a perfect world it works, and I know that it will be very hard. But that doesn't mean I won't do it. Might die doing it, but I will be happy in the process. Everyone that knows me knows I "will get it done one way or another, if I know it's feasible"


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I too have dealt with a lot of healt issues and injuries. So I know how you are feeling starting from scratch but having a failure is not an option attitude. No one here wants to talk you out of doing this. I for one started my business with extremely low overhead cost, and zero loans. Please just make sure you really think a $80,000.00 loan is best way to start off. I'm not saying it's not. Just make sure you do at least a 5 year plan, and try to find a way to keep the primary equipment busy all year.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

BUFF said:


> The world is perrrrrrfect when you have the correct Kool-Aid...


Can I have some? If there's a problem customer, he's been here today. And why do people come in for the first time, and expect credit. Didn't mean to derail the thread


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Randall Ave said:


> Can I have some? If there's a problem customer, he's been here today. And why do people come in for the first time, and expect credit. Didn't mean to derail the thread


You need this:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

OP, Do you have a plan on a way to earn money in the summer months? All contractors have different business models. Are summer months are majority of our earnings. Working everyday running from job to job. The winter months are not that simple.

If your a decent size player in the landscape biz where you have more contacts by servicing there property it's a little easier in my region. At this stage of your thinking you got all your eggs in one basket sorta speak. Have you considered some small commercial mixed in? Do you have at least one plow truck with a pull behind and a spreader? Have you got material storage Salt or similar deicing material? Do you have a Contractor to back you up that can handle it in a timely manner?

I been injured sick too. Glad to here your back on your feet, If you die trying to get a business going is just flat out not worth it. Do you have or going to get a CPA to look at your numbers and investments. Not trying to be a :terribletowel:my opinion is you need some counsel or take all the advise here you can get here. Besides a little banter lol members here only speak on years of knowledge. Maybe you should start out with a pickup plow and pull behind and maybe a small deere tractor with blower you can go after sidewalks too. Yes the numbers all look good now and you can make it happen. This is not a perfect world. 

Have you considered starting back where you left off with the other biz? Just seen a lot of guys come and go because of to much debt and did not have there ducks in a row.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> Can I have some? If there's a problem customer, he's been here today. And why do people come in for the first time, and expect credit. Didn't mean to derail the thread


Self entitlement, In your biz I would have to know you pretty good or be a minci etc to extend credit.


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

FredG said:


> OP, Do you have a plan on a way to earn money in the summer months? All contractors have different business models. Are summer months are majority of our earnings. Working everyday running from job to job. The winter months are not that simple.
> 
> If your a decent size player in the landscape biz where you have more contacts by servicing there property it's a little easier in my region. At this stage of your thinking you got all your eggs in one basket sorta speak. Have you considered some small commercial mixed in? Do you have at least one plow truck with a pull behind and a spreader? Have you got material storage Salt or similar deicing material? Do you have a Contractor to back you up that can handle it in a timely manner?
> 
> ...


Hello Fred,

All good questions. I'm still weighing options looking at all the possibilities. Some of which lead to ownership. Others that don't, at least not year in 1. Some had suggested taking money for a lease and putting it towards ownership. Again all things that I'm looking at.

I'm employed full time, and also work in the construction field (electric, and finish work) in my off hrs. Which is a lot of time available for my construction work.

I'm looking at the feasibility of this as another line of work I make available to the customer base. I'm known well enough to those around me, that If I'm on a job I will get the work done in a manner that is efficient, and done correctly.

While I may not clearly explain everything here in my head and it may look like over thinking it is part of my planning process. It is how I get through decisions to find out expenses, profits and deal with afterthoughts while maintianing profitability.

I came her to ask questions and take on the responses. This isn't my only source of info. I'm working with dealers, to talk with them about others and the possibilities that lay ahead. Including finding those that are local operating in this manner and speaking to them.

While I said I was looking at a loan with my father involved, I was looking at that from a position of how to decrease risk as much as possible. I know to buy a machine before a contract is to count an egg before it's hatched. 
My process right know is to find out how many eggs I need after they hatch to make this work. Then my goal would be to start hatching eggs. And counting them.

Having spent some more time with a different dealer I found a much better lease than in the beginning of this thread. Making startup much easier. I'll be here and there. I have a lot of things going on. Have a good day guys


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Whatever you decide, Good Luck Thumbs Up.


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## shooterm (Feb 23, 2010)

Short and sweet, when you get big snowfalls you plow with the storm. That may mean blowing through lots, driveways and leaving scraps. You may end up doing them twice. If a big storm slows me down say x3 maybe by doing them twice I save time.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

There's that there's that mysterious plow with the storm advice again.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> There's that there's that mysterious plow with the storm advice again.


Yes...

Can someone please tell me how to "plow with the storm" when the storm is 2 inches an hour for 6 hours.

Oh, and you've also got to explain how to sell work at the pricing the amount of equipment you'll have to dedicate to keeping up with said storm.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Yes...
> 
> Can someone please tell me how to "plow with the storm" when the storm is 2 inches an hour for 6 hours.
> 
> Oh, and you've also got to explain how to sell work at the pricing the amount of equipment you'll have to dedicate to keeping up with said storm.


Well you are plowing with the storm at those rates. No one ever said we were keeping up with the storm lol.


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## shooterm (Feb 23, 2010)

I guess I don't understand why you w


Mark Oomkes said:


> There's that there's that mysterious plow with the storm advice again.


Why, if you bid a job to remove snow you do it. If I charge the proper amounts its accounts for this.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ktfbgb said:


> Well you are plowing with the storm at those rates. No one ever said we were keeping up with the storm lol.


How about just completing your route and repeating. No one said you would be home snoring and eating in 8 or 10hrs. I have a fog attitude, I like per trip and so do the clients in this region. It's nice when your sitting home when the snow don't fall. Not so nice when your out there for 20+ hrs and stacking the next few days or over salting because of some cry baby.

This is just me, Not recommended for young hustlers with considerable amount of debt and young family's no pension etc. Not that I don't need money it's just easier to make it when your young so when you fog you can lay back some. lol


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

FredG said:


> How about just completing your route and repeating. No one said you would be home snoring and eating in 8 or 10hrs. I have a fog attitude, I like per trip and so do the clients in this region. It's nice when your sitting home when the snow don't fall. Not so nice when your out there for 20+ hrs and stacking the next few days or over salting because of some cry baby.
> 
> This is just me, Not recommended for young hustlers with considerable amount of debt and young family's no pension etc. Not that I don't need money it's just easier to make it when your young so when you fog you can lay back some. lol


Exactly. We had a weird winter this year. We got our annual average this year, but it was in 5 storms. I didn't have a storm under 12" this year to push. So they were all the 20+ hours non stop behind the wheel, with days of cleanup after the storm. I was never able to keep up this year, even just blowing through trying to keep main drive lanes open. I have too many accounts, but so does everyone else around here. So although all the customers call non stop during a storm asking when you will be back, at least they understand there just aren't enough providers to go around. By the end of the season you wonder why you do it, and think about throwing in the towel, and then a month later you are already daydreaming about the next season and what you can do to take even more accounts and make even more money.

A lot of new guys just don't realize that this is how it can be, and have never worked more than 10 or 12 at a time.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

During a storm nobody can keep up with it exactly to a 1, 2'' trigger. The schools are closed business are closed state federal offices are closed, The highways are basically closed at least the thruway and the highway guys no this and are basically shaming the OT. They have break downs to.

You clean one out and the state truck fills the entrance back in etc. During a storm if I get there in 4'' instead of 2'' so be it. Most with a half of brain will understand unless your seasonal then you need some extra men and equipment to keep them from crying. If it gets to bad you can always place a backup loader somewhere and road it.

As long as the emergency vehicles can get in and salt present and they tell you on the news only necessary travel give it a break and let us do our job. I don't know of any emergency vehicles that can't battle 4'' around here. Even the guy that got the hospital only cleans the emergency entrances only during a storm till he gets caught up. I'm to old to be some snow wizards punk. lol


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I should add, my above post doesn't mean I don't add equipment and machines if a large storm is forecast. I have no problem renting loaders/skids/tractors/whatever if the forecast is enough to make me nervous. 

We don't have much issue with anything under 12 inches the way we are set up. Over 12 inches in a 12-18 hour period it becomes a little more difficult to keep everyone from *****ing. 

The expectations are also different from year to year. Light years, it'd take an act of congress to keep some from complaining we aren't there enough. Heavy years, most don't say anything as long as emergency isles and fronts are cleared and salt is spread occasionally.


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