# High price of salt equals no salting!



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I finally am getting my contracts back and wow, quite a few had nice little hand written notes: "salt only when we request it". Let this be a lesson to newer guys, NEVER GIVE THEM A BREAK ON PLOWING WHEN YOUR ALSO GOING TO SALT THEM! I gave a local chain store a little break on plowing because of the price of salt. Yeah, well, they were one of three that said no salting unless we ask, that will be the last time I do that.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

im wondering, how much higher are you this year on salt? also i would HIGHLEY ADVISE making them sign a release of liablity, ...even if your contract states your not liable.. i would still draw up a new form that clearly states , becasue the cutsomer is making the call for salt, that they are responsible at all times for the property conditions, and you highly advise to salt after every plowing to remove possible ice, or packed snow...which might become dangours for its customers..... you might be surprised, and have a few change there mind


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

elite1msmith;611515 said:


> im wondering, how much higher are you this year on salt?


Well I didnt think that much higher considering the price of it. Last year we did regular salting on these lots and of course "the lots have never looked better" Well duh! thats what regular salting does for ya. This year I think we are around a 30% increase if that. Last year these lots ranged from 35-45 to salt and this year they went up to 45-65.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Brian Young;611544 said:


> Well I didnt think that much higher considering the price of it. Last year we did regular salting on these lots and of course "the lots have never looked better" Well duh! thats what regular salting does for ya. This year I think we are around a 30% increase if that. Last year these lots ranged from 35-45 to salt and this year they went up to 45-65.


i think a 30% increase might be too much , but i would also say your very cheap to begin with possibly - i think i went up between 25- 20 % deppending on the qty needed, larger lots get a better price


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## plowtime1 (Nov 1, 2007)

I have had an increase of 30% with one of our suppliers...while another 15%; but this also brings us closer to the actual pile.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

plowtime1;611625 said:


> I have had an increase of 30% with one of our suppliers...while another 15%; but this also brings us closer to the actual pile.


but a 30% increase in cost shouldnt mean a 30% increase in your rate to charge....

i didnt lose any salting, i was told to TRY to keep the salt useage down , but they are signing for salt none the less...


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

elite1msmith;611550 said:


> i would also say your very cheap to begin with


how can you say this without knowing the size of the lot


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

cretebaby;611677 said:


> how can you say this without knowing the size of the lot


because i wouldnt do any salting for less than 75 , no matter how small the lot is, but thats just me.


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## Snowguy01 (Jul 23, 2007)

he is not cheap for the size lots he has to salt he is in the right price range for them and 30% increase was right on the money seeing as we were paying 45.00 per ton and now it is over 125 per ton 80 higher than last year. I am going to get out of salting all together if it keeps going up. Not worth my time or my worries about the little old lady who is sue happy.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

elite1msmith;611550 said:


> i think a 30% increase might be too much , but i would also say your very cheap to begin with possibly - i think i went up between 25- 20 % deppending on the qty needed, larger lots get a better price


We state in our contract that we provide a secondary monitoring of conditions, and the ultimate responsibility falls on on-site personnel... then we given them several levels of service with well defined criteria to choose from. those on the top levels rarely ever call in.You have to have a minimum. 45-50 doesn't sound like enough to cover loading, travel, and materials. We have also added a trip charge to call-ins for special triups outside of our scheduled salt route to encourage them to give us a little discretion.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Snowguy01;611714 said:


> he is not cheap for the size lots he has to salt he is in the right price range for them and 30% increase was right on the money seeing as we were paying 45.00 per ton and now it is over 125 per ton 80 higher than last year. I am going to get out of salting all together if it keeps going up. Not worth my time or my worries about the little old lady who is sue happy.


well, i think the days of 45 per ton are over, but i dont think the norm is gonna be 100 per ton

as for the "shortage" lol, i had 2 supplies call me this week, telling me they still had salt, and price didnt go up , from when i call 6 weeks ago- funny , some shortage

Not worth your time or worries? i got news, if you plow the property , You are now liable.... word it anyway you want in a contract, but fact is they can TRY to come after you...so i wouldnt be so quick to get out of salting. Heck in alot of cases this year , im salting for minimal profit, simpley becasue we want SAFE properties. and if they turn down salt, I would still have them sign a waiver, possibly after every event that required salt as well. Im jsut saying , the more times you state on papper, that YOU the Pro, Highly recommend applying salt, and advise the customer as such, your only covering your butt

and i think later, or next yr prices will drop - or at least i hope


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

elite1msmith;611705 said:


> because i wouldnt do any salting for less than 75 , no matter how small the lot is, but thats just me.


You're right it is just you, and you have no business telling someone in another market if they are too high or too low.

Do some research on the Erie market before recommending pricing.

Do you even know how much snow they get?



Snowguy01;611714 said:


> he is not cheap for the size lots he has to salt he is in the right price range for them and 30% increase was right on the money seeing as we were paying 45.00 per ton and now it is over 125 per ton 80 higher than last year. I am going to get out of salting all together if it keeps going up. Not worth my time or my worries about the little old lady who is sue happy.


Don't worry, elite hasn't learned it isn't wise to tell someone in another area what they should be charging.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

elite1msmith;611550 said:


> i think a 30% increase might be too much , but i would also say your very cheap to begin with possibly - i think i went up between 25- 20 % deppending on the qty needed, larger lots get a better price





elite1msmith;611646 said:


> but a 30% increase in cost shouldnt mean a 30% increase in your rate to charge....
> 
> i didnt lose any salting, i was told to TRY to keep the salt useage down , but they are signing for salt none the less...


My salt price went from low $40's per ton to almost $120.00 so do you think i raise my price by 30%


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

elite..if you don't mind my asking what prices were you quoted? here in st.louis, they claim there is a shortage , since august the price increases that i have followed have been from 71.00 to 125.00 and now up to 150.00 per ton by dec 1 , 3 suppliers say they are just about empty , i think they are waiting for the "ship from chile`" thing to replenish supplies,
steve


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Brian Young;611510 said:


> I finally am getting my contracts back and wow, quite a few had nice little hand written notes: "salt only when we request it". Let this be a lesson to newer guys, NEVER GIVE THEM A BREAK ON PLOWING WHEN YOUR ALSO GOING TO SALT THEM! I gave a local chain store a little break on plowing because of the price of salt. Yeah, well, they were one of three that said no salting unless we ask, that will be the last time I do that.


Keep super records. Call after every plowing and ask if they want salt. Have them sign a new contract in which it's laid out whom is responsible for deciding when and how much to salt. record times of your call to suggest for application and the time they call an request application.

While you are worried about the income loss, I would be as worried about assuming the liability for something that you don't control. you need to specify something like _the owner assumes all responsibility for decisions pertaining to the application of materials. We assume no responsibility for monitoring the conditions of your property. Ice melt or similar material will be applied only on the direct instruction of XXXX. The owner understands there could be an substantial period of time between their request for material application and the actual application of the material based on equipment deployment at the time of the materials request. All applications will be billed at XXXX ,this price includes a XXXX mobilization charge and a XXXX materials application fee _


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

from what I understand around here, the shortage b.s. is also being handed out. This summer it was $50 per ton, now its $95 and going higher next month 
We have multiple salt mines near by and with last years crazyness, you would think they would have mined overtime to create the stock pile neccessary.


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## Snowguy01 (Jul 23, 2007)

In all my contracts i Have a box that the owner checks if they want salt on a on call basis or a box that states no salt on parking lot and that they assume all liability on any slips falls or crashes due to icy conditions they also sign by it and i have had some people slip and when they contacted me they got a copy of the signed portion of the contract and went back to the store owner and i have been fine with that. and the salt shortage we have a huge pile on our dock here on the lake and Morton would not sell to us unless we have bought from them for the last 5 yrs and I only bought from them for two I have got salt out of that pile for the last 10yrs but not under the Morton salt company.that is what sucks here.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;611976 said:


> You're right it is just you, and you have no business telling someone in another market if they are too high or too low.
> 
> Do some research on the Erie market before recommending pricing.
> 
> ...


yeah your proabbly correct it isnt wise,thats why i stated he POSSIBLY might be cheap , in my opion... so lets see.... he uses bulk at 120 per ton, 200 lbs = 12 dollars., plus labor cost, travel time, fuel , mileage cost, and your telling me that he wold turn a profit at $35? after all that expense? $35 - 12 = $22 , minus labor , travel , fuel , id be impressed if he walked away with $10 in profit.... then you still have to bill it out , and wait to be paid. Areas do have something to do with it... but the cost of a truck is the same, the cost of fuel is similar, the cost of the equiptment need shoudnt varry too much , and even if his cost on salt was $30 per ton cheaper than me , that means it would cost him $3 dollars less, if he gets it at 90 per ton . i just dont think a Profit of $7 dollars is worth all the hastle 

Well , what do i know- nothing

but consider this, i didnt go up 30% , i went up between 15 - 20 , and i lost ZERO salting customers, at least im still going to profit some on salt, NOT as much as id like ...but its still some profit - Vs having the customer turn it down.... I still have to bid against ppl that didnt raise there salt price at all -

like basher said , the assumtion of liablity is a problem too. Either way we all have liabilty issues...but whats safer? a property with salt , or one with NONE? either way , if someone gets hurt you will be dragged to court for one reason or another - .

how about return buiness? next year....? so your job looks like heck , because they turned down salt....true its their fault, the customers fault for not taking it, but eitherway , if your parking lots like bad, it doesnt reflect well on the quality of work that you do -

and Superior - i dont know your market, i dont know what you charged prior... yes we all should rasie our rates, but here is just one example of things that could happen if you raise them too much -

BUT I HAVE LEARNED NOTHING -


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

xtreem3d;612007 said:


> elite..if you don't mind my asking what prices were you quoted? here in st.louis, they claim there is a shortage , since august the price increases that i have followed have been from 71.00 to 125.00 and now up to 150.00 per ton by dec 1 , 3 suppliers say they are just about empty , i think they are waiting for the "ship from chile`" thing to replenish supplies,
> steve


i got some at 100 , then went up to 126 , i have a new lead going for 99 ....

and with in the last week had 3 others call me back - phone calls that i made to them in august...

In Aug, i was told " sir, we arent sure if we are going to have enought salt" , "we arent taking on new cusotmers"

now in the end of OCT, 3 so far have CALLED me..... and said " Mike, are you still looking for salt ? , we do have enough, and the price has not gone up since we quated you last in Sept. " --- 3 seperate vendors -

man made shortage -


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

elite1msmith;612271 said:


> i got some at 100 , then went up to 126 , i have a new lead going for 99 ....
> 
> and with in the last week had 3 others call me back - phone calls that i made to them in august...
> 
> ...


Makes me wonder if I should try calling the suppliers here again,..........


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

This gotta salt thing is really funny. 

I grew up in Akron Ohio, if it snowed two inches the world slowed, six inches and the world stopped. 

Ten years ago I moved to West Michigan and the very first winter it started snowing January 1st and snowed for 3 weeks straight - we had no kidding four feet of snow in the back yard, not drifts either. In a car, you had trouble seeing around corners at stop signs. While last year was a 100+" year, we probably average 70". If it snows a foot here, who cares, not a single thing slows down. The lake effect storms that last for two or three days do slow some down a bit, but not much. Salt here?? Very few customers in this area want or are willing to pay the old prices for salt, let alone new prices - it freakin snows here - deal with it. Wendys gets salt, McDonalds doesn't, that type of thing.

But, if you drive 20 miles north and inland to Grand Rapids, they get a little bit less snow but they salt a whole heck of a lot more - it seems that even mom and pops pizza joints get shellaced with salt.

It's hard for us, crossing from one town to another 20 miles away, realizing customer expectations with regards to salt - so I'd think that a guy in Jersey might not understand the guy in Chicago's customer expectations let alone pricing.

Another example - a guy in Chicago is advertising needing subs and paying 85 per hour. With the going rates in Muskegon Michigan, you could send your whole crew to Chicago, put them up in apartmnets and have them SUB to this guy and probably make more money than staying home in Muskegon - and by the way, Muskegon plows what close to 30 times a year and Chicago I'd say is more like 18 times..

While this whole board is about asking and giving advice - pricing and customer expectations are so regional, that you really have to step back before saying that price is high or low........


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

framer1901;612872 said:


> This gotta salt thing is really funny.
> 
> I grew up in Akron Ohio, if it snowed two inches the world slowed, six inches and the world stopped.
> 
> ...


One of the best post I have seen on here in a while


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

elite...would it be possible to Pm me or e-mail me the contact names or numbers for a few of the salt distrib's your speaking of?
thanks,
steve
[email protected]


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Ipushsnow;612719 said:


> Makes me wonder if I should try calling the suppliers here again,..........


i was very surprised myslef, i called like 30 different vendors before...they all said they would take my name , ...and call me back if they could supply me

i kinda figured it was a load of BS, till these few did call

pm sent


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## snowguys (Jul 26, 2006)

yea i think the salt thing is just bs i called about a month ago to get priceing and now they are calling me say still need salt and i buy it bagged got 36 skids comeing next week


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

xtreem3d;612891 said:


> elite...would it be possible to Pm me or e-mail me the contact names or numbers for a few of the salt distrib's your speaking of?
> thanks,
> steve
> [email protected]


Why? If your looking for salt, you should talk to the Ground Effects personnel around here.....they have been calling me trying to sell "as much as I want" for a pretty penny. I understand you guys have brought in a huge amount of the powdery stuff from Pakistan.


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## mike33087 (Feb 9, 2005)

jeeze wish i could pay 45 a ton, round here its going for 160 a ton last year 120, unless you buy in bulk 25 ton min you can get it at 80 a ton


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

mike33087;613092 said:


> unless you buy in bulk 25 ton min you can get it at 80 a ton


thats a heck of a deal.


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## Snowguy01 (Jul 23, 2007)

this salt shortage must only be in my area my salt supplier told me in the spring to call back in august to finalize our paperwork. well august rolled around and they told me sorry no salt this year because we have not bought from them for 5 yrs. So we called 3-4 salt company's and they were not taking any new orders this year. We don't have salt brokers up here or I don't know where they are. it sucks we got Lucky one of the guys up here got extra and we jumped on board and got bulk but here there are no trucks shipping skid salt to our dealers There were 8 different guys who got there whole loads canceled. I feel bad for them. this man made shortage sucks. and is bs


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