# 6.5 miles of city sidewalk! Need help with estimate



## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

Ok here's the short... we have been in business doing commercial snow removal for 8 years now and we have always had large accounts with a few large factories that pay me very well. I have a request from the city to estimate roughly 6 miles of sidewalks that are on each side of the 4 lane (5 with median) road. It's a 35mph zone and traffic is almost nothing during a snow so not worried there. We are covered for required insurance. In our fleet we have 2 plow trucks possibly adding a 3rd soon, a bobcat 743 with 10ft box and a sweet commercial account with united rental where I can get really good monthly rates on about anything. I realize I will need to buy some equipment to do this.

Here's the problem. It's a no minimum contract. They have to call and request it (meaning it will likely be only for big 5+ inch snows. About half of the sidewalk doesn't have a place to put the snow and it would have to be trucked off. They want a bid that's per inch. So if I bid the 6 miles at $500 it would be $1,000 for two inches $1,500 for 3 inches and so on... 

Knowing that they will only call me if it's a bad storm worries me about going out and dropping big money on equipment. There is only 1 other person that is even big enough in the area to do it and he's been bending the city over a barrel for years now on it. 

On the other hand they COULD CALL ME for 1 or 2 inches if they want. Leaving me to do 6 miles for not a lot. 

Thoughts on what I should price this out at? 
Would a front mount snow blower on the bobcat or a rented Deere 204k be too slow?

I guess I could use a skid steer to windrow the snow into the road and have a hoe scooping it into a dump truck? 

Or use a snowblower to blow it right in the truck?

I don't want to over estimate it and miss an opportunity, but don't want to loose my bum either.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

How wide is said sidewalk?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Sidewalks...
Those things crack me up


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

John_DeereGreen said:


> How wide is said sidewalk?


4-5 foot


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Sidewalks...
> Those things crack me up


That's what I thought when this all came about but if I bit it at $800 and we get ten inches that's a cool $8,000


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

And how much are you willing to spend?


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

John_DeereGreen said:


> And how much are you willing to spend?


That's the big if! If I drop 10-20 grand on either an attachment alone or more on a used piece of equipment and it doesn't snow... or it snows and they don't use the contract...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

SchertzServicesLLC said:


> That's the big if! If I drop 10-20 grand on either an attachment alone or more on a used piece of equipment and it doesn't snow... or it snows and they don't use the contract...


Do you have any other use for a piece of equipment such as this? If not, I don't know how you could justify the purchase.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

First, you'll never get a job if you double your price every inch. 800 for 1 Inch doesn't mean 8k for 10...

Second, I would never take a job that I didn't have a contract of when to show up. It's pointless to sit around on your thumbs hoping they decide there's enough snow.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

so they plow the road, windrow on sidewalk and expect you to remove it?? :laugh::hammerhead:


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

JMHConstruction said:


> First, you'll never get a job if you double your price every inch. 800 for 1 Inch doesn't mean 8k for 10...
> 
> Second, I would never take a job that I didn't have a contract of when to show up. It's pointless to sit around on your thumbs hoping they decide there's enough snow.


That's how the contract is written! They want 1 number for the first inch. That's it.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I got the contract for city sidewalk here. There a PITA. They only call you when enough people complain. Be careful with a large investment.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

SchertzServicesLLC said:


> That's how the contract is written! They want 1 number for the first inch. That's it.


I'd be hesitant on this one.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> I'd be hesitant on this one.


X2 Not trying to discourage you. Use caution, Why would there only be two of you that qualify?


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

FredG said:


> X2 Not trying to discourage you. Use caution, Why would there only be two of you that qualify?


I guess we are the only two that have the reputation/equipment? Or maybe the only two dumb enough...


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

JMHConstruction said:


> I'd be hesitant on this one.


The company that had it for the past 2 years had the same contract but he had an $18,000 minimum. In the 2 years he used the broom to sweep it 3 times I think.. We have had 2 years of little to no snow. He took in nearly 40k doing nothing and the city said enough..So here we are


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

I wouldn't be hesitant......But I would be cautious in covering your rear...Such as wanting a three year contract so I could invest in the proper equipment to do the job quick and efficient...I would also revisit the contract terms with them...Find out exactly what they are looking for in terms of service and expectations...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SchertzServicesLLC said:


> I guess we are the only two that have the reputation/equipment? Or maybe the only two dumb enough...


If you think your going for it I would want to be in one of these with a drop spreader added. Trade the mower for a blower. 6.5 miles is a lot of walk...https://www.auctionsinternational.com/auction/12340/item/village-of-hilton-dpw-12340-75300


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

FredG said:


> If you think your going for it I would want to be in one of these with a drop spreader added. Trade the mower for a blower. 6.5 miles is a lot of walk...https://www.auctionsinternational.com/auction/12340/item/village-of-hilton-dpw-12340-75300


We will likely do a brine app on this. we can spray 90% of it from the outside lane of the road. The blower seems like a slow way to do it. I emailed the city admin and they approved me pushing it out into the highway and scooping it up with a hoe and loading into dump truck. 2 man team. One pushing it into the road one in a loader scooping it into dump truck. Dump trucks are subcontracted at 70HR so using 3 trucks should keep up...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SchertzServicesLLC said:


> We will likely do a brine app on this. we can spray 90% of it from the outside lane of the road. The blower seems like a slow way to do it. I emailed the city admin and they approved me pushing it out into the highway and scooping it up with a hoe and loading into dump truck. 2 man team. One pushing it into the road one in a loader scooping it into dump truck. Dump trucks are subcontracted at 70HR so using 3 trucks should keep up...


What about traffic control? You need to know. You would have to close one lane here. It's a extra expense.


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

FredG said:


> What about traffic control? You need to know. You would have to close one lane here. It's a extra expense.


Already have approval for that and have it covered. I will have the salt/brine truck follow the provess with a lane closure sign. The city approved this. We have private band radios to keep us all tied together. I still dont know how much to bid though... I have a number in mind but it seems way to big once we get into 8+ inches of snow...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I wouldn't touch it without a minimum\retainer.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Any municipal requests/bids I know of are all hourly rates for plowing, usually with retainer. I would not take any job/risk without some compensation for equipping/planning. 

Anyone who pays $8,000 for some city walk plowing would be fired or ousted. Municipalities aren't banks like you may think, they offer volume steady work at market pricing. We have tree contracts with many smaller communities in my area. 

For an inch rate have a higher initial base rate, then add on per additional inch. Would you wait until storm is over then? That's why hourly is better, hit it every few inches, easier on equipment too. Give them an hourly for each piece of equipment- if you have to truck it to a ditch or field- blow it- load it then your covered. 


I'd be thinking Kubota RTV with Western Vplow going 5-10 mph @ 2-3". We charge nearly skid loader pricing for running ours, I clear a 3 block 60" run in about 2 minutes plus a little cleanup on corners.


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

My friend been doing city work for 20 years
Roads walks, and blowing streets windrow in trucks , he uses a pumpkin similar to this with
A straight blade all the time , we get average
snowfall 175" a year . Few times a year they
remove the curb side accumulation by blowing on property land and in trucks .they also rear
spread as they go. 1 man operation 95% of tje time .few years back we had two storms back to back a 20" and a 28" they used a payloader
where they usually have issues with the small
Tractor, as well as there graders while doing the streets . If you have equipment to back you up already from your big commercial that
could help in bad situations you'll be fine,
Like stated above be careful no matter the size of the storm you " tje private contractor can't fall behind on city work like there union
guys"


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## Jeep_thing (Mar 3, 2014)

Why on earth would you let the customer have sole power to write the contract? Alter it so you that don't loose your ass and if they reject it walk away.


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

Jeep_thing said:


> Why on earth would you let the customer have sole power to write the contract? Alter it so you that don't loose your ass and if they reject it walk away.


Its the city ,,,, they decide not you .


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

F250/XLS said:


> Its the city ,,,, they decide not you .


Sure you do: just say no.


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

cjames808 said:


> Any municipal requests/bids I know of are all hourly rates for plowing, usually with retainer. I would not take any job/risk without some compensation for equipping/planning.
> 
> Anyone who pays $8,000 for some city walk plowing would be fired or ousted. Municipalities aren't banks like you may think, they offer volume steady work at market pricing. We have tree contracts with many smaller communities in my area.
> 
> ...


I have emailed the city official asking me for the bid, and he confirmed that it is 1 price for the first inch and that number is multiplied by the inches of snow. I'm sorry but my base price wont be $200-$400 becuase if the call me on one inch I'm not going to plow 6.5 miles for $200. Yes it will be once the storm is over and the plow trucks have cleaned most of the roads onto my sidewalks. Meaning I will be hauling off most of the snow the city removes from the roads... This is likely why the bids are so high... They want it one way as far as bids. They know if I don't bid on it the same person that has been doing it for years will continue to bend them over. I think I have my number in mind. I was hoping more people that had accounts like this would have chimed in. It's a stressful bid becuase of the no minimum and no call guarentee, and my quote will reflect.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

F250/XLS said:


> Its the city ,,,, they decide not you .


Really, No one tells us on City work here. The bid goes in with the rest of them. If your awarded they qualify you. Mainly if you have and prove ownership of the equipment and insurance they request.


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Sure you do: just say no.


Lollll your absolutely right .


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

FredG said:


> Really, No one tells us on City work here. The bid goes in with the rest of them. If your awarded they qualify you. Mainly if you have and prove ownership of the equipment and insurance they request.


I was refering to ,,,the contractors do not
Get to decide on specifications or do not write are own contracts to give out to the city

I might of wrote this wrong . They " the city
Put up jobs on a specific web site that we suscribe to and all of the specs related to that specific job is included on that post , we as contractors decide if we want to bid or not
on that specific job . If we are awarded the job we are agreeing to what there asking
And we sign there contract not the other way around .


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## SchertzServicesLLC (Oct 17, 2017)

Update: 

I turned down the offer and the winning big was $1,250 an inch. I would have bid WAY under at $800.. So I am now shopping for insurance that wants to carry what they are demanding. I called around to a few insurance companies last fall and no one wanted to write a policy that large. My agent said she could up the policy and I would be able to do it but they would non renew me in January because of the exposure. I know the winning contractor plowed 3x at 4 inches each time. So roughly 15k gross. Not exactly stellar money if you ask me! But we didn’t even get out first plowable snow until January... was a crappy winter here and we ended up with 11 events. 

Waiting to hear back from a few large accounts before I decide if I am interested in bidding this year. 

Anyone know of a really good snow insurance company that writes Illinois?


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