# Question for the big game players



## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

Hey guys,

I'm just wondering how long it took you guys to work your way up to having all the big game equipment such as dump trucks and backhoes etc.


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

You will find most guys with dump trucks and loaders use then year around with their other buiss. I dont know anyone that has a loader just for snow removal.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

If you want to be in the poor house you can start today!


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## Peterbilt (Apr 28, 2007)

Lol. Poor house. Thats funny..


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Scott's;697262 said:


> You will find most guys with dump trucks and loaders use then year around with their other buiss. I dont know anyone that has a loader just for snow removal.


I have 2 loaders just for snow.


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

Neige;697463 said:


> I have 2 loaders just for snow.


How many others do you use everyday?

Also said "I" dont know anyone, I havent met you yet lol


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Any time your up in the great white north look me up. Really most of my equipment I own is for winter use only. The 2 loaders, 22 Ag. tractors, 1 backhoe and 1 truck are only used to do snow. The other stuff I use for landscaping.


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

Neige;697463 said:


> I have 2 loaders just for snow.


So how long did it take you to work up to that then?


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## Wieckster (Jan 9, 2008)

all it takes is a check book with afew blank checks and you can have all the equipment you want


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## mulcahy mowing (Jan 16, 2006)

thats going to depend on your market, profit margin and really how well you run your business its also going to be based on need. i work for a large company we don't have a loader...we don't need... it we have 4 dumps two f550's and two internationals they're mostly used for sanding. we service everything from driveways to large lots. im a sub there....


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

The first loader we got 3 years a go with a Costco warehouse account. This guy was selling his loader with a 275 HP independent snow blower. If we bought his equipment he guaranteed the Costco account that he was doing with this equipment. The second loader we bought this year, to do a shopping mall that we have been doing for the last 10 years. The loader replaced 3 pieces of equipment, 2 Ag. tractors and a truck.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

My dad started this company 49 years ago. I have been doing it for 30 years now. Two years ago we increased by 40% our business when we bought two competitors who wanted out. I prefer increments of 5% growth, but sometimes you got to jump in when the opportunities come up. It is now a full time job 9 months of the year, and very often I put in more than a years worth of hours in those 9 months.


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

Neige;697505 said:


> My dad started this company 49 years ago. I have been doing it for 30 years now. Two years ago we increased by 40% our business when we bought two competitors who wanted out. I prefer increments of 5% growth, but sometimes you got to jump in when the opportunities come up. It is now a full time job 9 months of the year, and very often I put in more than a years worth of hours in those 9 months.


Thanks Neige, so based on the equipment you have in your avatar and signature would you consider all those hours in the 9 months worth it? Or do you ever wish you were smaller?


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

I think its very worth while. So much so, I am considering only doing snow, no more landscaping.


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

Neige;697543 said:


> I think its very worth while. So much so, I am considering only doing snow, no more landscaping.


Wow, very impressive if its really doing that well.

BTW, checked out your website. Did you know your English option button doesn't work?


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## Peterbilt (Apr 28, 2007)

You have to Pay to Play.. I started (On my own) 3 years ago with 2 trucks and a skid loader. I had 17 accounts. (Condo associations and commercials) Second season I went to 32 accounts (Same stuff as before) I had 3 trucks and 3 loaders. This year we plow 40 accounts (All commercial) with 2 Wheel loaders 2 skidloaders 1 tractor, and 4 trucks. Next year I am going even bigger. Hopefully 60 plus commercial. 

I rent the Wheel loaders, but have now found use for 1 year round. Now its just a matter of making enough to pay for it. Everything else I have gets used everyday.

I look at snow in a different way than most (I think) to me it cost less to operate in the winter than the rest of year. I make as much in one night of snow, than I do in a week of reqular work. So if It snow 4 times a month, I break even (By normal standards) If we get more than that, Then I get to go shopping for new or newer equipment. 

J.


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

Neige;697476 said:


> Any time your up in the great white north look me up. Really most of my equipment I own is for winter use only. The 2 loaders, 22 Ag. tractors, 1 backhoe and 1 truck are only used to do snow. The other stuff I use for landscaping.


Sure will then I can change my other post


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## sk187 (Dec 7, 2006)

My dad started our excavation company almost 30 years ago as of 5 years ago we had 30 employees.

Due to hard times we are now under 10 employees but do around 5 millions sq ft of plowing every snow fall, all commercial.

We currently have 3 loaders 2 skid steers 2 county trucks and a hand full of plow trucks.

Most of the listed equipment is used year around in addition to excavators scrapers and dozers.


The best advice to go big in plowing if you do not have year around use is to rent equipment but shop around dont always go to deere and cat there are a lot of options.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

That has not been true for me. 
Example 1, I can rent an Ag. tractor for $7 grand a year, or buy one for $55 grand 0% financing for 4 years. I usually keep the tractor for 15 years, and then sell it for around $12 grand. So total cost will be $43 grand vrs rental over 15 years of $105 grand, and that is only true if I can still rent for that same price for 15 years.
Example 2, I just bought a used 1995, Volvo L90 loader for $45 grand. Or I can rent for 6 months at $ 4 grand a month so $24 grand a year. To be fair the rental will not cost much on maintenance. The used loader who knows, so I am willing to tack on $5 grand a year for maintenance for the used loader, time will tell if it is enough. So with in 3 years its making me money, instead of someone else. JM2c


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

I would say it took me 3 years of truck pushing before I started getting into sites that required machinery. Now trucks are secondary and more of a support item to our plowing operation. 

At first I rented, and added my pushers or plows to them. I also had a few good owner operators working for me with guaranteed hours. 

I agree with Paul, owning will cost you less in the long run, but the safety net of being caught with too much eqt and not enough work is sometimes worth the additional costs of renting the gear over the winter. Nowadays, I wouldnt consider purchasing anything unless I had a solid 3-5 year deal to back it up. Anything can happen, and it did to me a few years ago-I can't imagine where I'd be today if I had to keep making payments on idle gear. Most of my pieces are used only for winter, except for a couple of backhoes and skid steers which we use all year round.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Scott's;697262 said:


> You will find most guys with dump trucks and loaders use then year around with their other buiss. I dont know anyone that has a loader just for snow removal.


All of our loaders (larger than skid steers) with 17 pushers, all of our large rigs with belly blades (Internationals and Fords), all of our HD3500's & Super Duties, all of our plow trucks and all of our sidewalks trucks and vans are for winter work only.

Our lawn trucks and trailers, irrigation and fert rigs, and landscape trucks and trailers are used only in the Spring, Summer and Fall. Landscape will use an extra dump truck if a summer rig is down, or pick up if really needed.

Like Neige we would prefer to do only snow. We do have a talented bunch of core employees that are also certified and specialize in these areas, so we will continue to do lawn, irrigation, fert and construction work..........but not on the scale of our snow.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

sk187;698028 said:


> My dad started our excavation company almost 30 years ago as of 5 years ago we had 30 employees.
> 
> Due to hard times we are now under 10 employees but do around 5 millions sq ft of plowing every snow fall, all commercial.
> 
> ...


Didn't you just start plowing last year?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

sk187;698028 said:


> My dad started our excavation company almost 30 years ago as of 5 years ago we had 30 employees.
> 
> Due to hard times we are now under 10 employees but do around 5 millions sq ft of plowing every snow fall, all commercial.
> 
> ...


OK, I'll bite.

It must take you a long time to finish each outing if that's what your contingent is. We have just about the same amount of equipment as you describe on one plant with 2 million square feet. Hard to imagine doing 2.5 times that with what you listed without taking a *very* long time.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

He must have gone from one mall last year to three malls this year! But still the same equipment

Every storm plowed within 72 hours guaranteed


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Superior L & L;699037 said:


> Every storm plowed within 72 hours guaranteed


My bad.........now I see the small print.


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## WINTERGROUP (Dec 10, 2004)

Took 2 years to get larger equipment, my loader is used in the winter for plowing and off season to change light bulbs......skid steers also, some times used to take the trash out.....I ASK MY GUY'S " HOW DID WE DO IT 3 YEARS AGO ? "


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

drivewaydoctor;697256 said:



> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm just wondering how long it took you guys to work your way up to having all the big game equipment such as dump trucks and backhoes etc.


building a good reputation and delivering for each of your customers is first and foremost. second is finding reliable and dependable employees. then you bid and hopefully win the lots you desire. five years ago, i had 2 pick-ups, 2 loaders, 1 backhoe. now, i have 5 pick-ups, 2 dump trucks, 5 loaders, 1 backhoe, 2 skidsteers, 1 tractor, 1 sicard truck, and two snowblowers. but i try to add one piece a year if i can. upgrade an old loader or add a pick up truck type deal, but it all comes in time.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

I am going into my third year right now. I started out a few years ago with 1 truck and about 12 residential accounts. ( I remember making my first grand and how big of a deal it was) . Then last year it was 2 trucks, and one tiny 23 hp JD tractor for loading my spreader with 4 driveways and 4 commercial lots. This year (my third year) I am doing 14 medium to large commercials including places such as Lowes. I now have 6 trucks, large skidder, etc. 

So over the last couple years I've really started to figure stuff out. I would love to stop landscaping someday and only do snow removal. But I have a long way to go before I can pull that off. 

It seems each year I bust my a$$ landscaping just to make money to purchase the equipment to cover the next years snow removal contracts. Then I really work at the snow to make enough to cover the equipment purchases/ advertising to expand the landscaping to create more income to expand the snow. I don't notice this when its happening, but its all a vicious cycle I have been finding out. Anyone find themselves in this positision from time to time? 

Sometimes I think its because I'm growing the business to fast, but I'm really not sure. 12 driveways, to Lowes in 2 years has been quite a big jump for me. I'm really not doing this to create a job for myself, I already have a good job at our PM company, I'm doing it to build a business and because I truly love snow removal. Ever since I was a kid this is what I've really wanted to do with my life, so I thought you only live once and I just jumped in head first.


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## kcress31 (Sep 20, 2009)

*How it all started*

We started our company 14 years ago with one pickup and a R.T. Backhoe. We still use the 96 Cat 416 B we started with. It still has the original batteries in it. The pickup is long retired along with a second pickup we bought in 1997 that we just retired. We use the pickups mainly to plow remote gravel roads. Our business is probably 70 % summer and 30 % winter. We don't rent too often as usually you can find a good deal on a used machine and it can pay for itself in anywhere from 2 months to 2 years depending on the job. About 2 years ago we bought a used 33 ton excavator. It started working the day after we got it and about 9 weeks later it paid for itself.

1 - 2500 pickup
3 - 2500 pickups with plow
1 - 97 Cat 416 B RT Backhoe With 10ft pusher 
1 - 08 John Deere 310 SJ TC RT Backhoe With 11Ft Pusher
1 - 97Cat IT 28F With 12 ft pusher
1 - 2000John Deere 444H Loader with 12 ft pusher
2 - 1992 Champion 740 & 726 Graders
1 - 79 Cat 980 B loader
1 - 76 Cat 988 B loader
7 - Triaxle Gravel Trucks
2 - Tandem Gravel Trucks
1 - 2009 International 4300 single axle with 6yd hopper sander

1 - International Tractor with 35 ton lowboy float
1 - Freightliner Tractor with 35 ton Belly Dump
1 - CAT D6 Dozer
1 - 2005 John Deere 200 CLC Excavator
1 - 2003 JD 450 ELC Excavator
1 - 1997 JD 892 ELC Excavator
1 - Gravel screening plant

Just ordered our first skid, a 2010 Bobcat A300 SKID with 7 ft sweeper, HD bucket, HD forks, And 10 ft Kage pusher plow. It should be here at the end of November. Probably will be buying 2 pony trailers in the spring to pull behind our new triaxles we just bought. I am addicted to ironplanet and machinery trader.com.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

funny you should mention graders, two guys around here have a blower and plow fitted to the graders and they plow commericial lots with them


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

This thread after reading it again really made me think about what has went on the past 2 years. I plowed snow for 15 years as a 1 man show and in 2007 made the jump into lawncare, changed the comp name and his the industry full time. 

2007 I had.....

*1997 Dodge 2500 8 ft meyer
*craftsman snow blower
*scotts spreader for my salt
*about 15 comercial accounts
* my goal was $1000.00 a storm

2009 I have.....

*7 3/4 ton trucks 2 with salt spreaders-2 V plows
*1 1 one ton super duty 9.2 boss V
*GMC7000 with a 10ft blade and spreader
*5 toro blowers
*2 4x4 4 wheelers with plows
*bobcat 643
*and rent a backhoe for the winter
*pushing 70 commercial accounts
*my goal now is $10,000.00 a storm

This comes with alot of very hard work, Im on my cell 24/7 I spend alot of time tracking down the right contact to talk to in person not just drop off a bid and go. Im the salesman for my business and I like to deal 1 on 1 in person. I grew faster than I wanted but when I made the move to go bigger another lawn care and snow removal business went out and I went after everything, but thats just the way I am not everyone can grow that fast but I keep my mind clear and take care of business. In this time I have never lost a account to bad service just to lower bidders.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Scott's;859203 said:


> This thread after reading it again really made me think about what has went on the past 2 years. I plowed snow for 15 years as a 1 man show and in 2007 made the jump into lawncare, changed the comp name and his the industry full time.
> 
> 2007 I had.....
> 
> ...


70 Commercials? How big are these places? I have 6 six trucks and there is no way I could handle 70 commercials of the size I am doing. Just a point of my own curiosity.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

i have been in buisness for 11 years now, (and i managed a lawn buisness before that) , i started my buisness with little more then a pickup and two lawnmowers, now 11years latter, we run a loader (acquired this year) 2 skidsteers,2 dump trailers, 2 compact tractors, 1 ford 3ton, numerous pickups, numerous trailers, etc. I think i went a little different then some of the other guys here, i decided to diversify my buisness, beyond landscaping and maintenance, we also do construction (new home, concrete, fences, decks, etc) and we have a welding and mechanical shop. so even though we don't run all the heavy iron (yet!!!) that a bunch of the companies here do, keep in mind we are a pretty full shop, and i enjoy having the diversification because it means when we are slow in one area, we have work in another, it has definetly helped in a recession


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

merrimacmill;859210 said:


> 70 Commercials? How big are these places? I have 6 six trucks and there is no way I could handle 70 commercials of the size I am doing. Just a point of my own curiosity.


Lets say each truck has a 10 account route thats 70 right there .I have 5 drivers that know what they are doing and have plowed for along time and can make quick work of just about any lot. I do alot of McDonalds, Burger Kings, Gas Stations and other kinda restaurants all in the same eara wich cuts down my drive time a ton. We also do condos and appt complexes. Its all in how your set up.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

Started in 1970 with one pickup truck and a backhoe with no cab. By 1975 I was running 26 4x4 trucks with blades and had one Ford A66 loader with bucket. In 1976 I went into the excavating business and then things got bigger. Backhoes,loaders, dozers, triaxels....At one time we had very close to 100 employees. In 2000 I decided to slow down and just plow snow. We downsized to about 60 people and have been working at that level ever since. All the cool toys we are lucky enough to have today were bought and built over the 40 years we have been in business.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

it's been hard to keep growing these days though...which is a shame because now is the time to buy equipment, but every tom dick and harry want to take your lots for half of what you're currently making


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Scott's;859272 said:


> Lets say each truck has a 10 account route thats 70 right there .I have 5 drivers that know what they are doing and have plowed for along time and can make quick work of just about any lot. I do alot of McDonalds, Burger Kings, Gas Stations and other kinda restaurants all in the same eara wich cuts down my drive time a ton. We also do condos and appt complexes. Its all in how your set up.


Very true on the closeness. I have a few lots that are 25 minute drive from the shop not in a snow storm, so I will have one truck dedicated to only 4 smaller lots and then I have 6 more serious lots right next to each other or on the same road. Reason I take the ones that are far away is sometimes they are chain stores where I have to take the pain in the ass ones to get all of them. But that is really nice to be set up geographically so you can handle that many accounts with a handful of trucks. Good income diversification too.


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## ford550 (Nov 9, 2008)

> It seems each year I bust my a$$ landscaping just to make money to purchase the equipment to cover the next years snow removal contracts. Then I really work at the snow to make enough to cover the equipment purchases/ advertising to expand the landscaping to create more income to expand the snow. I don't notice this when its happening, but its all a vicious cycle I have been finding out. Anyone find themselves in this positision from time to time?


Yes, for the last 20 years anyway


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## MileHigh (Nov 6, 2007)

Scott's;859203 said:


> 2009 I have.....
> 
> *7 3/4 ton trucks 2 with salt spreaders-2 V plows
> *1 1 one ton super duty 9.2 boss V
> ...


Ummmmmm.....10K on a storm, for all that equipment running is really bad....

Unless of course you only work about 30 Min every 2 inches.


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## Peterbilt (Apr 28, 2007)

Yeah,, $10000 per storm. Are you talking gross or profit? 

J.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

What kind of storm are we talking about here?


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## jimspro (Oct 9, 2009)

i started with 2 trucks in 88 and i subed for someone, as time went on i started adding my own accts, in 98 i left the profession i was in, and went into landscaping and plowing, at one time i was up to 12 of my own trucks, and had 3 subs working for me as well, down to 8 pieces of own equip now and no subs, i would do it the same all over again, no regrets


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

BladeScape;860037 said:


> Ummmmmm.....10K on a storm, for all that equipment running is really bad....
> 
> Unless of course you only work about 30 Min every 2 inches.


10K a storm starts at 2 in so a 2 in storm would use only the trucks the other equipment will sit. I try not to set goals I cant reach, thus the equipment I own.

Not being a smartass by any means but how can a guy in CO with only 2 trucks tell a guy in OH with a fleet of trucks that 10k a storm if really bad? Must be karma on the $10 driveway thing lol.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

pricing is all relative...most of these guys wouldn't hack it in my area when we rake in a mediocre 15-25% profit margin and that's it, when a 400,000 SF parking lot goes for only a whopping $15k to plow for the season


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## BMWSTUD25 (Aug 21, 2008)

Redman, I really need to make it up and check out your operation!


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## JKMATHIEU (Oct 19, 2009)

Takes a long time.......Not all its cracked up to be( having all the iron). Make smart moves and focus on productivity. If you just want to "look the part" better have your checkbook ready!!!!


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

JKMATHIEU;860403 said:


> Takes a long time.......Not all its cracked up to be( having all the iron). Make smart moves and focus on productivity. If you just want to "look the part" better have your checkbook ready!!!!


Well said.


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

JKMATHIEU;860403 said:


> Takes a long time.......Not all its cracked up to be( having all the iron). Make smart moves and focus on productivity. If you just want to "look the part" better have your checkbook ready!!!!


So true my trucks look nice but all have been bought thru car auctions by a buddy of mine saved a ton of money and my plows where all bought used with some great deals here on plowsite. I see alot of guys buying brand new trucks and plows and think omg. I have sat back and watched a local lawn care guy that I have known for over 19 years and have watched how he done things and I have never seen him buy brand new anything but has a mil $$$ business and looks good doing it. The skidsteer I just bought off craigslist and payed cash.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

redman6565;860329 said:


> pricing is all relative...most of these guys wouldn't hack it in my area when we rake in a mediocre 15-25% profit margin and that's it, when a 400,000 SF parking lot goes for only a whopping $15k to plow for the season


WOW thats it, That being said 15-25% net would be great in most other businesses. For some reason people who plow (including myself) think we should have super high margins!
All we are doing is selling labor on our shovel crews and some equipement time on our plow crews. I believe this is why some of the larger operations are beating up on the smaller guys.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Superior L & L;860499 said:


> WOW thats it, That being said 15-25% net would be great in most other businesses. For some reason people who plow (including myself) think we should have super high margins!
> All we are doing is selling labor on our shovel crews and some equipement time on our plow crews. I believe this is why some of the larger operations are beating up on the smaller guys.


I couldn't agree more... When guys complain about low ballers, think again! 
Margins in the 15-25% are great by most business standards.


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## WISnowPlower (Oct 17, 2009)

We started 18 years ago with 2 pickups, a backhoe and 3 employees when we used to be in the excavating business plowing a few commercal lots. This year we are up to 10 county trucks, 8 pickups, a grader, payloader, skidloader, 2 tractors, 2 semi's and 2 dumptrucks with about 20 guys plowing, now doing over a hundred miles of road, commercial lots and residential. Sure was quite a change when we expanded but it was well worth it. One of these days i'll have to get some pics of the fleet posted.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

blowerman;860591 said:


> I couldn't agree more... When guys complain about low ballers, think again!
> Margins in the 15-25% are great by most business standards.


They are great if you work 40 hours a week all winter long but for snow we are lucky to get 100 hours in all winter plowing. If we count site checks and salting around 4-500 but that doesn't keep all the guys working. We should make bigger margins because of the lack of hours we actually get paid to work versus all the hours we wait. JMO


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## kcress31 (Sep 20, 2009)

JD Dave;861868 said:


> They are great if you work 40 hours a week all winter long but for snow we are lucky to get 100 hours in all winter plowing. If we count site checks and salting around 4-500 but that doesn't keep all the guys working. We should make bigger margins because of the lack of hours we actually get paid to work versus all the hours we wait. JMO


I could agree with that. A few winters ago I personally put about 400 hrs on one machine. We were averaging 4 - 5 snow events per week.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

kcress31;861870 said:


> I could agree with that. A few winters ago I personally put about 400 hrs on one machine. We were averaging 4 - 5 snow events per week.


We have never plowed more then 150 hrs in a year but that's just me, maybe others have plowed more in our area. 400 is alot of snow.


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## jimspro (Oct 9, 2009)

i agree with JD Dave, we invest alot of money in the equipment, pay insurance and are prepared to go whenever, other industries have business sometimes year round, we have to be able to go with very little notice and deal with whatever comes down, and for however long it takes to get the job done.we should make a higher margin to keep us going when we go a long time with out any snow, and i don't think that is ripping anyone off


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

That's the problem. here my main guys average over 200 plowing hours a season on an average snowfall between plowing and snow removals, yet a lot of 400,000 SF will go for less than $15k for plowing. Salting is cut throat here too and its unfortunate. And the worse part of it all is that we have to play the game because salesmanship only goes so far and the bottom line is pricing.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

You don't think you are ripping anyone off?

It is funny to me that you list business concerns that are the same in EVERY business in America. Every business has workers no show, Every business, has equipment issues, you want tough look at a line in manufacturing that is costing 100k every hour it is down. 

Make what ever you can when it is snowing, 

However to tell me that working 150 hours out of 4000ish in the winter and you should make a living, and I may not feel sorry when someone with less overhead takes the lot at 15-25% profit. 
JMO


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## snow tender (Nov 30, 2008)

redman6565;863029 said:


> That's the problem. here my main guys average over 200 plowing hours a season on an average snowfall between plowing and snow removals, yet a lot of 400,000 SF will go for less than $15k for plowing. Salting is cut throat here too and its unfortunate. And the worse part of it all is that we have to play the game because salesmanship only goes so far and the bottom line is pricing.


Redman well said Salt pricing is crazy here too. I think some people are giving it away or dancing with the devil. So much for business loyalty


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

JD Dave;861874 said:


> We have never plowed more then 150 hrs in a year but that's just me, maybe others have plowed more in our area. 400 is alot of snow.


JD those are your employees hours, but how many hours do you put in? Every time we get snow, we spend a 5 hrs getting ready, and 3 more days after plowing repairing and getting for the next one. Add dailly site checks, hauling snow, and salting and 50 hours comes real quick.


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## kcress31 (Sep 20, 2009)

Neige;863715 said:


> JD those are your employees hours, but how many hours do you put in? Every time we get snow, we spend a 5 hrs getting ready, and 3 more days after plowing repairing and getting for the next one. Add dailly site checks, hauling snow, and salting and 50 hours comes real quick.


I would agree. You really need to factor in unbillable hours.


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

JD Dave;861868 said:


> They are great if you work 40 hours a week all winter long but for snow we are lucky to get 100 hours in all winter plowing. JMO


Does Toronto really get that little of snow? If so, profit margins would be at an all time high.



Neige;863715 said:


> JD those are your employees hours, but how many hours do you put in? Every time we get snow, we spend a 5 hrs getting ready, and 3 more days after plowing repairing and getting for the next one. Add dailly site checks, hauling snow, and salting and 50 hours comes real quick.


Very smart key points there Neige!


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

For the guys running the show it is tuff to know your hours. I don't really want to know mine. I work every day. If they are calling for snow I usually don't go to bed. With no snow in the forecast I'm up twice a night to look. I haven't done site checks but this year might be my first. I run 8 of my own trucks. Even though all guys are paid hourly they don't seem to want to wash trucks or check plows or any other work. I wash, fuel, grease and take care of all the trucks. Put salt away, mix sand and salt and deal with the problems that arise. I make a good living and are happy with what I do. I lost my highest stress account this year. If all goes well I may not bid it again. It was very demanding and paid very well but sometimes there is more then money.

I also have 8 sub trucks and 2 backhoes out everynight.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

creativedesigns;863756 said:


> Does Toronto really get that little of snow? If so, profit margins would be at an all time high.
> 
> Very smart key points there Neige!


I don't know if it is the lack of snow or the small time frame that everyone wants stuff done. I have 2 accounts that say you have to have enough equipment to get everything done in 4 hours. I stretch it to 5.5/truck.


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## cold_and_tired (Dec 18, 2008)

I started four years ago with only a rented, open cab, Bobcat and a homemade plow. I bought a beat up plow truck my second year, bought a plow for my personal truck and sold the old truck my third year and this year I added a leased skid steer (with a cab)

I have kept the same four contracts since the day I started and this year I added 17 gas stations which I subbed out. 

On one hand, I would like to purchase a skid for next year add another truck and possibly one more account. 

On the other hand, I'm happy where I'm at. My headaches aren't as big as the guys with a lot of equipment and I am bringing in enough money to satisfy my employees and myself.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

On the other hand, I'm happy where I'm at. My headaches aren't as big as the guys with a lot of equipment and I am *bringing in enough money to satisfy my employees and myself.[/*QUOTE]

see, that's just it, some of us don't have the luxury of doing less because snowplowing carries the construction company during the winter. a lot of you small guys don't have that issue to deal with but i do. I know every year i have to bill out x amount of dollars to pay utilities, my excavator loan payments, my mechanics to repair construction equipment, my estimator to keep going after construction work, while funding the snowplow operation.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Neige;863715 said:


> JD those are your employees hours, but how many hours do you put in? Every time we get snow, we spend a 5 hrs getting ready, and 3 more days after plowing repairing and getting for the next one. Add dailly site checks, hauling snow, and salting and 50 hours comes real quick.


Those are actual plowing hours, not salting hours, I should have clarified. We do site checks 7 days a week before 5 am and that takes a min of 3 hours. We only have 1 fulltime employee plus my dad and myself, so we end up putting in alot of hours between site checks, maintenance and just plain waiting around. It's not hard for the 3 of us to put it 500 hours in the winter for just snow hours. Site checks become a real burden come March but with so much liability at risk we cannot get away from them.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

i have it set up where members of my crew that live near certain lots will check periodically throughout the day so that i can concentrate on billing/equipment and construction


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## kcress31 (Sep 20, 2009)

redman6565;864578 said:


> On the other hand, I'm happy where I'm at. My headaches aren't as big as the guys with a lot of equipment and I am *bringing in enough money to satisfy my employees and myself.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> see, that's just it, some of us don't have the luxury of doing less because snowplowing carries the construction company during the winter. a lot of you small guys don't have that issue to deal with but i do. I know every year i have to bill out x amount of dollars to pay utilities, my excavator loan payments, my mechanics to repair construction equipment, my estimator to keep going after construction work, while funding the snowplow operation.


We feel you pain Redman.


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## kcress31 (Sep 20, 2009)

redman6565;864613 said:


> i have it set up where members of my crew that live near certain lots will check periodically throughout the day so that i can concentrate on billing/equipment and construction


We are lucky as far as site checks go. We have two guys that have there checks done in about 15 to 20 mins each. All of our contracts are close together in two separate towns.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

i throw my guys an extra hour of pay for checking lots. generally they do the morning checks, check the equipment over and start it up for everyone else while we're on our way to the lots.

i phone them to check, they check and call me back, then i set up the crews and equipment...that's usually how it goes, but i have found myself checking lots before, found myself sleeping in the cab of my pick-up at the lot because it's in between on whether we need to plow or not too lol


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

redman6565;864825 said:


> i throw my guys an extra hour of pay for checking lots. generally they do the morning checks, check the equipment over and start it up for everyone else while we're on our way to the lots.
> 
> i phone them to check, they check and call me back, then i set up the crews and equipment...that's usually how it goes, but i have found myself checking lots before, found myself sleeping in the cab of my pick-up at the lot because it's in between on whether we need to plow or not too lol


Our lots checks need to be done with a salt truck and detailed sheets are filled out from every visit. We take the salt truck and salt everything from puddles 6" in diameter to big ice patches that form daily from runoff. If your doing lots checks I hope your writing things down and keeping good track.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

JD Dave;865082 said:


> Our lots checks need to be done with a salt truck and detailed sheets are filled out from every visit. We take the salt truck and salt everything from puddles 6" in diameter to big ice patches that form daily from runoff. If your doing lots checks I hope your writing things down and keeping good track.


definately. we have a standard form that gets filled out for all checks, plow events and salting events. we also have specific sheets i fill out daily that gets turned into lot managers or owners that go over lot conditions, what work was performed with what equipment.


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## Mdwstsnow512 (Dec 30, 2007)

i quit keeping track of the hours i work, started keeping track of the hours i sleep.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Mdwstsnow512;865524 said:


> i quit keeping track of the hours i work, started keeping track of the hours i sleep.


yeah, gets to a point, where work has to be done and it really doesn't matter, just happy to flop on the bed and sleep


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

buckwheat_la;865583 said:


> yeah, gets to a point, where work has to be done and it really doesn't matter, just happy to flop on the bed and sleep


know that feeling...


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

Mdwstsnow512;865524 said:


> i quit keeping track of the hours i work, started keeping track of the hours i sleep.


I sleep im May


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