# GIE's Snow Magazine Cover



## sunriseturf

Anyone catch the cover story on the 2 guys that run the residential plow run with 1800 customers. I like a lot of what I read about these two...seem like good hard working guys with a good philosophy....service and quality over price ect They had a good marketing plan and had the right attitude on low ballers. Then I read on and looked at some of the numbers. 1800 customers - anywhere from 17-28 events per year and a snow revenue of only $400,000? My first assumption is that one of these three numbers is wrong and I am guessing it's the revenue from the article. This number should be $1,000,000. I hope it is for their sake because say they do 20 events that means they only bring in $20000 each time it snows? That comes to about 11-12 bucks per driveway. I understand that the route density is high and everything and no shoveling and no salt. Does this seem right to anyone?


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## grandview

Agreed. It seems like the more some of these guys due the less they make.In one of my other threads a company with over 300+ subs and they only do 3 mill? Maybe they just don't want to say exactly what they make?If i did drives my low end would be 400.00 per. 1,800x400.00=720,000.00 divided by 21=34,000.00 per snow. But I do like some of their ideas.


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## sunriseturf

I think they would have been better off just saying they don't want to disclose revenue. By throwing up that 400K figure they look like bad low ballers which from the look sand sound of the article they are not. It doesn't do them any favor because I am all for making as much money as possibe in this business. You've got to want to be able to get out of bed for this EMERGENCY service that we provide.


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## mcwlandscaping

i agree, when i read the article the $400k price seemed WAY low for that amount of driveways, and at the same time there is a whole part about how much they hate lowballers. Doesn't make sense

AND!! it says that their 05-06 revenue was $400k and they project that it will be the same this year?? either means they gained the same amount they lost from the last season, or they dropped the prices on some of the accounts they have just to keep them and then took on a few more. I agree with the above poster in saying that they should have just said they didn't want to disclose that info instead of making themselves look bad. 

I have to give credit though, it seems like they have some really good ideas as far as marketing and booking keeping goes.


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## ThisIsMe

Think about it. As many competitors we all see in our area, what would it take to get 1800 residential customers?

Only one thing could get them that strong in the market. Lowest price wins. 

On the other hand, two people, two trucks, $20k per an event? Or do they have more people and trucks?


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## mcwlandscaping

ThisIsMe;348349 said:


> Think about it. As many competitors we all see in our area, what would it take to get 1800 residential customers?
> 
> Only one thing could get them that strong in the market. Lowest price wins.
> 
> On the other hand, two people, two trucks, $20k per an event? Or do they have more people and trucks?


20 regular employees (probably close to that many trucks) plus 1 sub.......1800 accounts with two trucks?? that'd be a miracle!! Well, it could be done but the miracle would be if they could still keep the accounts!

they said in the article that each driver takes care of around 100 accounts per storm. So, 18 trucks.


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## sunriseturf

yeah i think it was close to 18-20 trucks going out......he did say that ont truck if it is routed right can do 100 driveways in six hours. I beleive that if it is in a development....have plenty of room to put the snow and can bust the drive out in a couple of minutes. The did say all they do is plow......no salt or shoveling. If they can get away with that god bless em.......They are crazy not to salt though....they can increase their revenue and profits in insane amount without to much overhead or additional labor.

I found all this fascinating. All of my work is commercial and industrial except for 2 or 3 high end landscape management accounts. I still don't know if I would want that headache. I think you have to be geared one way or the other. Can you imagine if someone vandalized all their trucks and a monster storm came? 1800 phone calls. Makes me want to vomit thinking about it.


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## QuadPlower

The tracking of customers and they way they aquire them with direct mailings and word of mouth is great, but the numbers really don't come out right. Maybe they were bragging to the mag writers. I would think they would check it though.

It also sounded like they bill on a seasonal rate, not per event. 

1800 driveways
20 trucks
6 hours
Average 20 events.
$400,000 revenue

Those are the numbers in the article.

That means:
Each truck has 90 drives and has to do each in 4 minutes at $11.11 per drive.

They also said they were down to 25% profit

I hope some of the numbers are wrong, because that is LOW balling in my part of the woods. I don't care if they are right next to each other and you have a truck that can go without gas and a driver that can go with out food or pissing for 6 hours. That must be a heck of a technique they do when plowing a driveway.

I would like some clarification from Snow Magazine on these numbers.


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## chtucker

So doing 14 driveways an hour, at $11 = $154 per hour, not bad in my mind..


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## JRSlawn

I also saw the cover those guys are just north of me there market is crazy these guys are doing driveways unlimited for like 150.00 per year. The bad part about it is some of them are moving down here and are wondering why I am charging them $30 per time and we get less snow. Oh well that is why I try to stick to commercial.


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## snoking

$222 ea. drive for the season....

$400000-
$10,000 insurance
$12,000 liability and comp
$32,400 payroll 18 people 6hrs per night, 20 trips
$18,000 in fuel for 20 trips

$72,400 in basically set cost for year

$327,600 left for the 5 transmisions they will replace, taxes(which should be low because its all resi), payroll taxes, 

worst case they make 100,000 ea and i bet i still paid all the expenses for the their caribean vacation for two weeks while everyone else is doing leaves.....

i dont know ....hard choice but i bet id do it in a second...my 2 cents


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## Mark Oomkes

When are you people going to get it through your heads that every market is different and therefore pricing is different???????????????????????????????????????????????

While I think snoking is low, his numbers are a lot closer than what you guys are throwing out. Look at chtucker's figures? 

Look at what these driveways are, probably 2 car's wide, 50-60' long at most? Think in town, small lots for the houses, small drives, couple minutes per drive. There's companies around here that could crank that many out in less time. 

And you guys that say even $25-$30 per drive would be sitting home doing nothing, even here in GR. I know I would be higher than $200\season, but I wouldn't be able to be much higher if I wanted to get into the residential market. Salting residential driveways? Absolutely unheard of around here. 

Keep in mind, ALL markets are different and pricing is different in those markets. Way too harsh to be calling them lowballers just because they have those kinds of numbers, especially when you haven't seen all the numbers.


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## sunriseturf

I totally agree that all markets are different. I guess they wouldn't be doing it for that long and for that many years if they weren't. It's just when I did the math $11 per driveway seemed insane. Even if they are right next to each other and small. It just seemed like something didn't add up. I commend them though. They take a completely professional approach and the way they do business is great for our industry.


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## DBL

they cant be making any money i hope they have second jobs


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## ThisIsMe

Anyone wanna bet they have some condos or apartments in their contracts and they are counting *each* apartment or condo as one in their total of 1800?

I see no mention of apartments or condos or such. How could such a large business covering 1800 houses not have one condo, apartment complex? Or do they turn these down in favor of single families? Ya right.


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## DBL

i wouldnt consider a condo or apt complex residential and i dont think they would either


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## ThisIsMe

DBL;349934 said:


> i wouldnt consider a condo or apt complex residential and i dont think they would either


Neither would I. I just wonder how someone can get 1800 driveways, but not one complex. Just thinking out loud is all.


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## DBL

yeah i hear you i wonder how big the town or city is they must have a monopoly out there


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## ThisIsMe

DBL;349951 said:


> yeah i hear you i wonder how big the town or city is they must have a monopoly out there


Mafia?

Chris


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## Oshkosh

*No No No*



ThisIsMe;349956 said:


> Mafia?
> 
> Chris


Not Mafia, they like a BIG return on their investment.lol


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## sunriseturf

Is that you Tom? If so I hope you were able to fill up your routes this year.......not that we've done anyhting this year.


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## DBL

sunriseturf;349981 said:


> Is that you Tom? If so I hope you were able to fill up your routes this year.......not that we've done anyhting this year.


yeah i got way more than i wanted had to buy a fourth truck just noting to do....hope we can catch up soon


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## ThisIsMe

Oshkosh;349961 said:


> Not Mafia, they like a BIG return on their investment.lol


BIG return? Where can I hire me some?


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## Mark Oomkes

DBL;349911 said:


> they cant be making any money i hope they have second jobs


This coming from someone who didn't know he had to have Workmen's Comp---after he had employees by his own admission.  From what I remember, they've been in business almost as long as you've been out of diapers.

I hate to sound like an ass, but some of you guys are so thick-headed it isn't funny.

100 driveways in 6 hours comes to about 16 driveways. Add in some travel time, although not much because they only travel something like 5 miles from their shop so make it 12 driveways an hour.

$200 for the season at 22 events on average is $9.09 per service. $9.09 times 12 per hour is $110 per hour. 8 minutes per drive with travel time. That's slow for around here. Or poor route density. With a back blade, even an 8 footer, I can knock out a drive in 3-4 minutes on a normal snowfall. Go to a 16' like snoking uses and you're even less.

Is anybody going to argue that $110\hour for a truck is a bad hourly rate?? We've got established idiots, I mean contractors, going out for $60-$80 per hour.

You guys need to put the real numbers to these figures before shooting off your mouths and thinking you know what you're talking about.


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## SnoFarmer

:waving: 

Lets say they can do 12 drives an hr and that $110/ an hr is a good wage.

I still smell Lowballing !! 
They left to much money on the table. 
Who plows a drive for $10 bucks? 
I don't care if they are right next to each other! 

I know VOLUME, but still $10 bucks a drive?

Most of you, like me, say that you will not even start your truck for under $30 bucks a drive.



Now, they collect there salary's and the rest is the business profit. 
I wonder what there over head is IE,, buildings, equipment payments, advertising, accountant, secretary, lawyer ect,ect, a100k will be gone fast.



P.s. I don't care if they plow in Kathmandu, or any where else the rate you need to charge to make a living is not that much different no matter where you live.


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## Mark Oomkes

$10 for 8 minutes of work? I don't call that bad at all. But that's just me. I think maybe I should take a pic of a drive that I am referring to, hopefully that would help. Maybe they're different across the country.

$30 for a subdivision drive, 2 car wide say 12' max, 50-60' long just isn't going to happen in a lot of markets. I have said before, from Holland, MI to Gr the rates used to determine pricing vary from $25-$150 per hour for a truck. That's within 45 miles of each other. Ask the contractors that are still around in Erie, PA what the going rate for plowing and salting is there after JAA and company ran the prices into the ground. There's a point in time that you make the decision that you are going to accept a lower profit margin to stay in business and pay for what equipment you have or you're going to say screw it, I give up. IMO these guys have gone for the first option and are OK with their decision. 

I wouldn't define it as lowballing as much as knowing their costs and accepting a lower rate in order to survive.


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## Oshkosh

*Photo example from my area...*

Hi,
To put a photo with a cost here we go in the Conway NH area...This is one of the least expensive quotes for plowing and it is because he does the house next door.The quote is/was $15 per push.....


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## Gicon

sunriseturf;348275 said:


> Anyone catch the cover story on the 2 guys that run the residential plow run with 1800 customers. I like a lot of what I read about these two...seem like good hard working guys with a good philosophy....service and quality over price ect They had a good marketing plan and had the right attitude on low ballers. Then I read on and looked at some of the numbers. 1800 customers - anywhere from 17-28 events per year and a snow revenue of only $400,000? My first assumption is that one of these three numbers is wrong and I am guessing it's the revenue from the article. This number should be $1,000,000. I hope it is for their sake because say they do 20 events that means they only bring in $20000 each time it snows? That comes to about 11-12 bucks per driveway. I understand that the route density is high and everything and no shoveling and no salt. Does this seem right to anyone?


Which magazine is this? Where could I find more info on it or subscribe to it?


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## DBL

Mark Oomkes;350202 said:


> ...I hate to sound like an ass, but some of you guys are so thick-headed it isn't funny.
> 
> 100 driveways in 6 hours comes to about 16 driveways. Add in some travel time, although not much because they only travel something like 5 miles from their shop so make it 12 driveways an hour.
> 
> $200 for the season at 22 events on average is $9.09 per service. $9.09 times 12 per hour is $110 per hour. 8 minutes per drive with travel time. That's slow for around here. Or poor route density. With a back blade, even an 8 footer, I can knock out a drive in 3-4 minutes on a normal snowfall. Go to a 16' like snoking uses and you're even less.
> 
> Is anybody going to argue that $110\hour for a truck is a bad hourly rate?? We've got established idiots, I mean contractors, going out for $60-$80 per hour.
> 
> You guys need to put the real numbers to these figures before shooting off your mouths and thinking you know what you're talking about.


you cant tell me they dont know the going rate in their area and what they can charge and what everyone else is charging to make a living but no they are going well below that average to take everyone elses customers and do what they have to do...they seem successful but what about all the other guys who cant do it for $10 a drive...they could be making a lot more money and another point they may have made the same amount gross if they would have plowed for the average price and gotten less customers


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## chtucker

You people don't plow much snow do ya? 20 events? Money on the table? 

You guys must think I am think that I am a low life low baller... I plow HAPPILY for $110 per hour with a 2005 GMC C5500 4x4 with a 10' Boss V... I gross more than DOUBLE what those guys are doing with each truck per season... do the math... 

I'd take 900 per 100 drives per an event...


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## sunriseturf

I think the bottom line is IF they are making money and I hope they are....and have the systems in place to do manage this...more power to them. I think they must have insulated themselves from lowballers entering in there service area. In the previous post of the market in ERIE PA. $25-150 dollars an hour for a truck and plow. Now $25.00 an hour I don't think anyone can argue is just flat out ignorant. I feel bad for those who have to compete against that. What some of you guys are saying makes sense. 10 drives an hour X 11 bucks per drive = $110 per hour. I'm fine with that to....what I wouldn't be fine with is the paperwork after the fact. If you only had one event in a month...the 42 cent stamp would eat up a little less than 4 percent of your billings for the month. I can see both sides of the story.....I guess thats why I stick with commercial work regarding snow.
Residential works for them. I can't knock em for if it works but it wouldn't be for me.


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## Mark Oomkes

DBL;350308 said:


> you cant tell me they dont know the going rate in their area and what they can charge and what everyone else is charging to make a living but no they are going well below that average to take everyone elses customers and do what they have to do...they seem successful but what about all the other guys who cant do it for $10 a drive...they could be making a lot more money and another point they may have made the same amount gross if they would have plowed for the average price and gotten less customers


Can you tell me the 'going rate' in their area?

Can you tell me that they are or aren't under the 'going rate' in their area?

Quit trying to tell us that they are under the average price unless you are next door to them. The reason I used the Holland-GR example is just like the Cleveland to Akron example that the guy in this thread used. Unless you are next door, don't tell or assume you know what the rate is because YOU DON'T KNOW.

For the guys who can't do it for $10\ drive, boo freakin' hoo. It's called capitalism and competition. You want to compete with their price, figure out how they're doing it or wait until they go bankrupt. If they're lowballers, it will catch up with them, it always does.

You can't argue with success and by all appearences these guys have made it work for them.


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## Clapper&Company

their in NE OHIO. 

Here in ohio, I had a company want to sub my truck for $ 22.50 per hour.... Yea right
I have heard of guys range from & 45-50 per hour up to $120 Per hour depending on what truck and plow they have, to what part of the state their in..

Hope this helps


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## Mark Oomkes

clapper&Company;350833 said:


> their in NE OHIO.
> 
> Here in ohio, I had a company want to sub my truck for $ 22.50 per hour.... Yea right
> I have heard of guys range from & 45-50 per hour up to $120 Per hour depending on what truck and plow they have, to what part of the state their in..
> 
> Hope this helps


Thank you! You made my point. Rates vary all over and it sounds like they might be towards the higher end. DBL is on the other side of PA from OH and insists that these guys are lowballers, never mind being 300-400 miles away.

BTW, DBL, are you going to raise your rates now that you know you have to have Workmen's Comp insurance? It does affect your overhead.


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## Clapper&Company

Mark Oomkes;350840 said:


> Thank you! You made my point. Rates vary all over and it sounds like they might be towards the higher end. DBL is on the other side of PA from OH and insists that these guys are lowballers, never mind being 300-400 miles away.
> 
> BTW, DBL, are you going to raise your rates now that you know you have to have Workmen's Comp insurance? It does affect your overhead.


Mark, I think you hit the nail on the head !!! "Every one is always talking about going rate" A good friend of mine, who has been in snow 25+ years has always said " the only thing about going rate is going out of biz" Lets face it every ones cost is diff.

Ok I got the magazine in front of me..

Lets look at this:
Every Acount is within a 5mile radius of their shop.
Profit of 25%

25% of $ 400,000 is $100,000.00 per year profit. 
The way I under stand it is that the 2 guys own the company. Since their is 2 guys that own the company, i'm sure their making a pay check, and not working of the companys bank roll. So if their making a check and the over all profit is 100,000 year that is going in to the bank roll.

are they doing that bad????


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## QuadPlower

I'm sure they're making money. 25% of any thing would be okay. 

One of the main points of the article was "Battling low-ball competitors with quality services, Eastside Landscaping cleans up."

Are they battling them by taking all of the low-ball accounts away?
It's already been said a 100 times that prices vary from area to area, but $11.00 a drive is low balling in 99.99% of the area.


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## Flipper

I have kind of stayed out of this for a while but some of the comments make no sense. Where I am there is no common drive A two car 50 foot drive may go up or down from the street 10+ ft. But lets say it was flat, I would probably get $40-45 per push but that is my market. We do a lot of longer drives that are measured in fractions of miles instead of feet. Contract prices vary due to spreading needs and varying drives.

Having said all this, my sister in law lived in a huge development outside Columbus. Probably 1000 houses in less then a 5 mile area. Each house seperated by 20 feet. Houses were valued at around $500,000 so it was middle class. The whole subdivision had been bulldozed level except for drainage, so each house sat about 2 feet above street level. All homes were about the same and the same 30 feet from the street. Therefore all had about the same two car wide by 30 foot driveway. I can certainly believe that I could have plowed these for $10-15 each in the time alloted and made a profit. I think she was paying a contract price but I will have to aske her and then see how it broke down.


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## Mark Oomkes

QuadPlower;351223 said:


> One of the main points of the article was "Battling low-ball competitors with quality services, Eastside Landscaping cleans up."
> 
> Are they battling them by taking all of the low-ball accounts away?
> It's already been said a 100 times that prices vary from area to area, but $11.00 a drive is low balling in 99.99% of the area.


Get off the freaking $11.00 per drive and start looking at the hourly rate. $11\drive IS Lowballing if they're doing 1, 2, 3 maybe 4 an hour depending on what the going rate is in an area.

But they're not, they're averaging 12 an hour which comes to $110\hour per truck. This isn't rocket science, guys, just simple math.

And once again, you are stereotyping with your last comment. You even contradict yourself with your last comment. If it's lowballing in only 99.99% of an area, it IS NOT in .01%. Why is this concept so hard to understand??

What if the lowballers they are battling are doing them for $5 a drive??????????? We don't know, because we are not in their area!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## DBL

who cares if theyre doing 4 an hour or 14 the price of a driveway is the price of a driveway


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## Flipper

What a moron.

How many times can you be told that is not true?


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## Mark Oomkes

Flipper;351460 said:


> What a moron.
> 
> How many times can you be told that is not true?


Thanks.

Let me see:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink;

or,

Never argue with an idiot, they only bring you down to their level.

I'm sure there's some others that fit, but I'll just stop there.


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## QuadPlower

Why you have to call people idiots and morons in order to get your point across? Do you think by typing in BIG RED LETTERS we will think your point is more valid than ours?

You are right saying we don't know what the going rate is in their area. Apparently no one on this site is in their neighborhood to help us out with numbers. You might be right saying the low balers are plowing for $5 a drive.

1,800 drives / 20 trucks = 90 drives per truck. 6 hours start to finish = 90 drives @ 4 min/drive. 60 minutes in an hour / 4 minutes per drive = 15 drives an hour. This is based on the numbers given in the article.

First off, can YOU & 1 truck plow 15 drives an hour? You can put them right next to each other in the same neighborhood. I don't care. You can drive 2.5 miles to them from your shop. (At 60 mph you just burned up 2.5 minutes. At 30 mph you just cost yourself a driveway) 
Can you do it at 2" of snow fall?
Can you do it at 4" of snow fall?
Can you do it at 6" of snow fall?

Let's say you can. Can you do it for 6 hours? Do you stop for gas, phone calls, coffee, eating, etc.? If so, every 4 minutes you are costing your self a driveway.

Let's say you can. Would you personally be happy doing it at 25% profit? 25% is their number from the article.

You said $110 per hour is good. I'm not arguing that with you. 25% of $110 is $27.50 an hour profit. I don't know if that is soo good. $165 a plow profit? (6 hours @ $27.50) $165 a plowing profit X 20 plows = $3,300 a season. Would you be happy with that?

Let's say it does. Good for you.

Let's say it does. Then the numbers in the article are correct.

If you can't do 15 drives an hour for 6 hours OR you would not be happy with 25% profit a season, than can you see the point everyone else is trying to make?


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## DBL

thank you


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## Mark Oomkes

QuadPlower;351605 said:


> Why you have to call people idiots and morons in order to get your point across?


I have low self esteem and that makes me feel better about myself.



QuadPlower;351605 said:


> Do you think by typing in BIG RED LETTERS we will think your point is more valid than ours?


I sure as heck was hoping it would help, none of my other mathematical facts have seemed to gotten through to some of you.



QuadPlower;351605 said:


> You are right saying we don't know what the going rate is in their area. Apparently no one on this site is in their neighborhood to help us out with numbers. You might be right saying the low balers are plowing for $5 a drive.


Exactly my point. Nobody in this thread has the right or ability to say whether or not they are lowballers. I have been pointing out ways in which they may not be lowballers. Based on simple arithmatic--multiplication, division, addition and subtraction--I have shown how it is very possible for them to make this work and come out to $110\hour\truck. Despite DBL's ignorance about business and math, this is truly the figure we need to look at.



QuadPlower;351605 said:


> 1,800 drives / 20 trucks = 90 drives per truck. 6 hours start to finish = 90 drives @ 4 min/drive. 60 minutes in an hour / 4 minutes per drive = 15 drives an hour. This is based on the numbers given in the article.
> 
> First off, can YOU & 1 truck plow 15 drives an hour? You can put them right next to each other in the same neighborhood. I don't care. You can drive 2.5 miles to them from your shop. (At 60 mph you just burned up 2.5 minutes. At 30 mph you just cost yourself a driveway)
> Can you do it at 2" of snow fall?
> Can you do it at 4" of snow fall?
> Can you do it at 6" of snow fall?
> 
> Let's say you can. Can you do it for 6 hours? Do you stop for gas, phone calls, coffee, eating, etc.? If so, every 4 minutes you are costing your self a driveway.


Yep, 6" might be pushing it, but 2-4, no problem. My question would be: Are they using pull plows AKA back plows. They're dang good cranking these drives out without them.

The rest is simple routing, start at the furthest point from your shop and work your way back in. Close, tight-knit routing will reduce hugely travel time, which is obviously what they are doing.



QuadPlower;351605 said:


> Let's say you can. Would you personally be happy doing it at 25% profit? 25% is their number from the article.


25% beats 0%. Simple supply and demand. Unfortunately, we have had and still do have some area management companies as well as ignorant business owners--not managers--that have treated a service as a commodity. This cannot work as is shown by SMG\Symbiot falling by the wayside.

What if their choices are: 1) Make 25% profit with trucks you already have for landscaping. Money in the bank. 2) Make 0% profit with the trucks you already have for landscaping. If rates fall in the market you are plowing in and you already have the equipment and you are unable to make the profit you desire, what choice would you make?

You need to understand that whether you or I like it or not, rates are going down and you have to make one of the above choices until we can slowly as an industry raise the rates to what they were a couple years ago and where they should be. I lay 99% of the blame for rates going down over the last couple years directly on JAA\SMG, US Maintenance, Dentco, Superior and any others that I many have missed for treating a service as a commodity.



QuadPlower;351605 said:


> You said $110 per hour is good. I'm not arguing that with you. 25% of $110 is $27.50 an hour profit. I don't know if that is soo good. $165 a plow profit? (6 hours @ $27.50) $165 a plowing profit X 20 plows = $3,300 a season. Would you be happy with that?


Might not be happy with it, but it beats the heck out $0.00 profit for season when you are trying to operate a business with employees to support that have families to support and may have payments to the bank and mortgage, etc, etc.



QuadPlower;351605 said:


> Let's say it does. Good for you.
> 
> Let's say it does. Then the numbers in the article are correct.
> 
> If you can't do 15 drives an hour for 6 hours OR you would not be happy with 25% profit a season, than can you see the point everyone else is trying to make?


Yes, I can see the point. Take a look at my post where I say I think snoking\Eric is nuts for doing drives in Muskegon for $175. But that does not give you or me the right to call these guys lowballers when we are not in their market, which is the initial point of this thread and what several members have castigated these guys for. I used mathematical figures based on the numbers they provided and showed to you how it is very possible and even likely that they are not lowballers.

Let me ask a few questions of you guys that insist these guys are lowballers.

How long have you been in business for yourselves?

How many employees do you have?

PS DBL, when are you going to answer my question about raising rates because you're actually going to start paying WC?


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## DBL

Mark Oomkes;351695 said:


> PS DBL, when are you going to answer my question about raising rates because you're actually going to start paying WC?


what do you want the answer to


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## jcesar

OMG.
Lets see here. Mark, what do you charge for a 2 lane drive, 30 ft long, in GR?
I bet my rate is different, and I am only 45 minutes north of you. Almost guarantee I get less for the same drive.

Demographics!

Low balling? No. You can only charge what the market will handle. Now, as for the numbers used in these arguements, check your math boys, 

110.00 per hour for a plow truck is not bad money. Anyone who says I cant do that many drives in an hour, let me know where the snow is and I will be happy to show you how.

For those of you who think you need to make 30.00 per drive, just to start your truck, that is fine. Dont cry when you are broke. If all you are doing is 3 or 4 than it is good to make that money. If you do 1800 per event, than why not cut a little slack to get it in the first place. Anyone ever think maybe these guys got alot of the jobs, by special offers, or referrals?


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## Mark Oomkes

DBL;351700 said:


> what do you want the answer to


Read the following question, very, very slowly:



Mark Oomkes;351695 said:


> PS DBL, when are you going to answer my question about raising rates because you're actually going to start paying WC?


PS I did the large type and in red just for quadplower.


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## sunriseturf

I think Mark is on the money in many of his points and by his responses I'm gathering he has tried to make this point to others in the past and for some reason people don't get it. 

I've been doing this for almost 20 years now and do a decent business. Snow is the most profitable thing that I do. I guess you can make a comparison of if you went into a large town home complex or housing development of 1800 homes with 20 trucks. I could see them pulling this off with no problem. All of there homes are within 5 minutes of their shop so I am guessing it's a little more complicated than that but they have their systems in place.

I totally understand that the markets are different all across the country and supply and demand kicks in. 

I totally agree that management companies SMG, US Maintenance ect have damaged our industry and have turned it into a commodity when it really is an emergency service.

I think that the point to be made clear is that all of our snow compainies whether we are a one man band or a fleet of trucks is that you can make money if you are geared to a specific market and customer. These guys wouldn't be doing it if they weren't making money. They can pull this off with the systems they have in place by being able to do 1800 homes with in a 5 minute radius of there home base. If they are making per hour what their specific market will bear and they are making money that works for them. It wouldn't work for someone geared a different path like my company. In my service area my client base is all industrial and commercial. Much bigger lots.....I don't have to worry about tearing up turf along driveways(at least not as much doing 1800 homes)...it's a completely different way to attack getting rid of the snow. But the way I am set up maybe the guys doing these driveways think I am a low baller. I am geared for bigger lots and bigger snow and ice. I am feeling the pinch of some bigger outfits and have had to concentrate on clientele that isn't attacked by the big guys. I'm trying to adapt and be competitive without lowering my price but it's hard. Also these guys have have taken 20 years to do this right and make $ at it. It would be extremely difficult to crack into their market and be competitive with out the systems, marketing, and the 20 years it took them to get to this point.

I know I rambled on but the bottom line is everyone should make money. Markets are completely different all over the place. Do what works for you........but make sure your making $


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## sunriseturf

Not to get in the middle of the WC issue but in Pennsylvania owner operators have the choice of opting out of workers compensation by signing a waiver to the state which is enforced if anything ever happens. Anyone working as an "employee" needs to be covered. Any subs working under the main contractor the same rules apply. Probably for a different thread but I do know not all states run this way. If they prove they have their own business or they are a corporate officer they can opt out. I have opted out and did all the proper documention and I know the consequences if something happens. If your eligible to sign the waiver and haven't then Workers comp is needed. That is my understanding of it. Not sure whats happening between DBL & Mark......And I don't want to get in ther middle. Maybe this info might clear things up. Now lets get some GD snow!


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## DBL

i dont need to raise my rates becuase im making enough money and im not doing driveays for $10


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## Crash935

First of all, Mark is right and it seams that many of you dont get it. Mark and i live less than 10 miles apart (hes east of me) yet his rate for his area is different than the rate in my area. Why, different type drives and different income levels. Go less than 3 miles to the west of me and the rates are different again. Its all demograpics and what the market will bear for the area, it has nothing to do with lowballing.

Can you do 20 drives an hour, sure can, did it everytime i went out. How did i do it, all of my drives were less than a mile from my house and i drove no more than 5 miles total to cover 20 drives (and this was only with a front blade). all drives were single wide, no more than 75' long and many times they were next to or across from each other. And all of the roads in my area are straight and hit another cross street atleast every 1/2 mile.

Now that i spend my days driving to different parts of the country, i still look at what it would take to plow in the areas i'm driving through and wonder what the rates are in that area. If many of you came to our area (marks and mine) and even thought you were going to get the same rate as what you were getting back home you would be accused of trying to SCREW the customer.

Open up your minds and try to comprehend what mark is telling you (sure, hes not always polite, its a low self-esteem thing, we understand). His dad was doing this stuff probably before many of your PARENTS were even born (NO, i'm not kidding), so marks been in this industry his whole life (and hes no spring chicken anymore) and just might know WHAT HES TALKING ABOUT!!!


Sorry mark, hope i didnt mess up that low self-esteem thing you had going?


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## jcesar

Crash935;351731 said:


> First of all, Mark is right and it seams that many of you dont get it. Mark and i live less than 10 miles apart (hes east of me) yet his rate for his area is different than the rate in my area. Why, different type drives and different income levels. Go less than 3 miles to the west of me and the rates are different again. Its all demograpics and what the market will bear for the area, it has nothing to do with lowballing.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thank you!!!!!! I tried to say the same thing, but you did it better!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Superior L & L

Dont really care to start getting involved in this topic its pritty beet up and repetitive. BUT I have to say Mark is right. Sorry people


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## diehrd

I am sorry but Last season i did 31 Driveways in 90 minutes.

And of those 31 2 where out of my way adding 15 minutes to the job.(Still round trip was 90 total minutes)

I keep all my plowing within 1 zip code and my area is pretty dense.

I took in 5890 total receipts.. If I had done 20 trips ( I did 5 actual for 1178.00 a trip LOL) but if i did do 20 thats 30 hours of work. or 196 per hour if I had done the 20 trips.

Each driveway sold for 190.00 and at 20 trips it would average $9.50 a push.

Call me a low baller BUT THE math sure makes sense.

To many of you are hung up on "Per Driveway" and I am glad you are because my truck makes almost 200 an hour in an average season rather then sit in my garage  Glad so many cant do basic math..

Or someone said 14 or 15 an hour and you are buying transmissions LOL .. Really ? I have never bought one on any truck I ever owned. (Knock wood ) and I haveplowed for many years with 4 different trucks.


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## Mark Oomkes

Crash, now I'm going to have visit my therapist again. You just blew all the progress we had made. :crying: 

Think I ought to have him work on me being such a sarcastic SOB???


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## Crash935

Would you like for me to call that "funny place" at the corner of 68th and division and see if they have a room for you?


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## Stuffdeer

Mark Oomkes;352121 said:


> Crash, now I'm going to have visit my therapist again. You just blew all the progress we had made. :crying:
> 
> Think I ought to have him work on me being such a sarcastic SOB???


This post is in Agreement with Marks.

I agree with the 10 driveways in a row thing at $10 a pop for each.

I read this entire thing. No way am I old enough, or well expirenced to make a comment everyone will agree with, But I'm 16, and CAN SEE THE BASIC MATH everyone is missing.

WTH...

I can guarentee you, that the city next to me, less then 3 miles away, has completely different rates then Southgate, and you know how I know this, I have driveways in both cities.

I can get $25 a driveway here, 2 car, small, and 18-20 over in the other city.

Why?

DEMOGRAPHICS PEOPLE

Demographpics, IS the way we break up our markets, and if you don't believe me, GO TAKE A MARKETING CLASS.


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## Mark Oomkes

OK, I just can't resist any longer. The thought crossed my mind after the edit was up on my reply to quadplower.

Some of you guys are making LLM Ann Arbor look intelligent.


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## Stuffdeer

Mark Oomkes;353749 said:


> OK, I just can't resist any longer. The thought crossed my mind after the edit was up on my reply to quadplower.
> 
> Some of you guys are making LLM Ann Arbor look intelligent.


Lmfao.....


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## snoking

we have our words with LLM.. but he seems like he does the best he can like rest of everyone...


but yes i also agree with mark


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## Rcgm

ThisIsMe;349956 said:


> Mafia?
> 
> Chris


HAHAHAHAHAHa 
Big Red Door

RCGM
Brad


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## Clapper&Company

Well, im going to bump this old thread up.

I know the area these guys are from, I bet they did 5-600,000 this year. 

Also, most of the people that posted in this thread is no longer around the site.


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## f250man

Hey clap did your story come out yet. If so get me a copy buddy :waving:


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## Clapper&Company

Shhh. No it hasnt steve


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## f250man

Why is it top secret now Ron.


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## Clapper&Company

It has always been lol


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## f250man

Ok buddy then what was with the picture thread all about?


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## Clapper&Company

Something else ill tell you when your older,


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## f250man

What young pup im already older then you.


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## Mark Oomkes

Clapper&Company;592421 said:


> Well, im going to bump this old thread up.
> 
> I know the area these guys are from, I bet they did 5-600,000 this year.
> 
> Also, most of the people that posted in this thread is no longer around the site.


Trying to stir up poop again, are ya?

LMAO

So these guys are still in business while all the naysayers and *****ers about lowballers are gone? Big surprise


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## QuadPlower

That post was almost 2 years ago! I didn't go back and read the hole thing, but if I remember, for me it was about having the TIME to do everything they said they did.

I'm still here. I've expanded and I've hired more employees. I've lost bids and I've won bids. This year was a little rough in the landscape install area, but the grass is still growing and the snow will keep falling.


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## sunriseturf

I'm still around.....just havent got in the snow mode yet......hope everyone gets more snow than we did last year.


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## ScnicExcellence

The hourly rate works out fine and when you look at doing 
20 trucks at an hourly rate of $110 an hour that is good 
$2200 an hour for all trucks 
per storm 6 hours they are looking at $13200
average of 20 storms equals $264000 per season of 20 events.


now with those numbers they look at a drive way. $7.33 per event or 146.66 per season.

now with $400 000 per year revenue 

They have 1800 driveways there will be revenue per truck per hour of $166.67 per hour

I would imagine when you look at the jobs as it is all hourly then great. they are making a killing off the volume because they basically rate everything at an hourly rate not per job. 

Here in kitchener Ontario i just did a quote for someone they said the guy last year did their driveway all season for $300 unlimited cap.

I told them my price and i was in at $800 for the season but when they told me they leave for 2 months and only need service when i am ready to drop by when i am done my route for those two months then i dropped my price and it is now $650 

Prices do change per area but the fact some people try to make is it is not worth it to do driveways for $11 or $12 dollars each time BUT they are looking at their setup. i would personally not do it for that cheap just because i can get alot more i charge minimum $25 per event. up to 6". my setup includes one truck and looking at about 30 accounts. driveways. so it would not be reasonable to me to do that type of pricing, but when you look at 90 properties per truck then you can change your pricing to fit what you want to make in total and not per driveway.

I would look into this method of pricing if it was in the interested of my company and would make me money, the reason being is the walmart effect they under price everybody and therefore they get the sales, but what is not understood of this method is it eventually wears off in the way that the prices go up over time. $1 here or there, rather than $5 or $10 change per year increase. Now if they hook all these people in with these prices they will always think of this company as the lowest priced and decent service and never even bother with other company's. Like here everybody goes to walmart but what ever happened to zellers they are still around but not nearly as big as walmart.


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## Clapper&Company

I love it! 

Yes, just stiring the pot kinda,  but just wanted to bump it to see what world happen


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## IMAGE

Ron what is this talk of a magazine?

PS, sorry to leave ya on trukz, just wanted to try something else.


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## Mark Oomkes

Wow, times have changed. 

I was allowed to call people idiots and morons way back in '07. 

Enjoy the long read folks, I just skimmed through it and LOL'd several times at what some of these :terribletowelosted.


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## SnoFarmer

mark, you still do....

If i do 8 drives in 2hrs at #$30 a drive ( for example)

Then i spend $$$ on equipment so i can now do 16 drives in 2hrs, I should lower the price i charge to plow a drive?


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## Mark Oomkes

I didn't even remember proving you wrong in this thread. lol

That's not the premise of the article or the discussion.


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes said:


> I didn't even remember proving you wrong in this thread. lol


lol i just posted to get ya riled up...
can't do that agreeing with ya.
still not sure i do...:hammerhead:



Mark Oomkes said:


> That's not the premise of the article or the discussion.


so, ya :terribletowel: i asked a Q that kind of does, go to the discussion.

as you have said something like,.( why lower your price because you have became more efficient) or something along those lines.


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## Mark Oomkes

I have???

I can't wait for Defcon to regain consciousness and read through this thread.


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## SnoFarmer

if it takes ya 1hr to plow a lot with a 7.5 straight plow and you get $100.

Then
You invest in a new 10ft plow ... and cut your time in half.
Do you lower the rate you charge?

You say, no, right?


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## Mark Oomkes

No....I say yes. 

Or is it yes.....I say no?


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## SnoFarmer

why? you have to recoup your investment.
a $100 lot is a $100 lot.
you do, do this to make a profit?


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## Mike_PS

So you dragged up an old thread just to go back and forth between the two of you about nothing?

I can close this one out as well thanks guys


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