# Duramax vs. Cummins



## yardfarmer (Oct 27, 2005)

I am in the market for a plow truck. the only requests i have is that it is diesel and 4x4. i am personally a GM man, but i may be willing to settle w/ a cummins because it is such a good motor, but the rest of the truck i hear is pretty much junk (tranny, susp. parts etc.) i have never heard anything bad about duramaxs either so i am sorta stuck about what i want. any sugestions?


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*I havent owned either but...*



yardfarmer said:


> I am in the market for a plow truck. the only requests i have is that it is diesel and 4x4. i am personally a GM man, but i may be willing to settle w/ a cummins because it is such a good motor, but the rest of the truck i hear is pretty much junk (tranny, susp. parts etc.) i have never heard anything bad about duramaxs either so i am sorta stuck about what i want. any sugestions?


 I havent owned either but I did hear that some of the Duramax's did have cylinder sleeve issues.These where newer engines(not allot of miles) under warr.Beyond that I havent heard anything else about the problem.They sound like a great engine otherwise.
That sleeve information was from a 15yr GM mechanic.


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## DBL (Aug 27, 2005)

i have the cummins and its great....the suspension is fine the frotn doesnt sag witht the plow and never in the rear hauling the skid loader either...also i have the 6spd and i love that too


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## BreyerConstruct (Aug 17, 2004)

My Dodge has a real axle under the front.... the chevy dosn't.
also depends how long you want to keep the truck. The Dodge is built heavier (so is a Ford) but only the Dodge's Cummins will reliabily last hundreds of thousands of miles.
So if you'll sell before 100k miles, and ultimate load ability isn't an issue, but whatever you want. If you need to cary lots, and sell under 100k, buy a Ford. If you're going to hold on to it forever, tow a bunch, and load it up a bit... Buy the Dodge.

There, I may have jsut started a war. 

I'm a Dodge guy, but I love the drive of a Chevy, and I love the look of the newest Fords; for what it's worth.


~Matt

P.S. Drive them both, see what "fits" the best.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

Never heard of cylinder sleeve issues??? Injector issues with early ones but thats about it. 

A "real" axel? I ran IFS for 55k miles(before I wrecked it) on all the original factory stuff and plowed snow with a 9.5' fisher V blade. I also made countless 4x4 launches with boost and nitrous, eating vetts and stangs on the street and running a best of an 11.75 in the 1/4. The only thing I did to the front end was tie rod sleeves becasue 4x4 launches at the track with boost and enough N2O that gasser guys look at you like your from mars is hard on the stock tie rods. I made over 700HP on N2O to the rear wheels with absolutely NO MOTOR WORK. Stock turbo, stock injectors, stock heads and gaskets ect. JMO but the duramax is a great motor. Cummins is OK too but I think the Chevy package is better(hence why I bought one). Gota love that allison transmission too Speaking of allison.....if you buy a chevy buy a 6 speed. A 6 speed auto that is


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*All I can remember...*



ratlover said:


> Never heard of cylinder sleeve issues??? Injector issues with early ones but thats about it.
> 
> A "real" axel? I ran IFS for 55k miles(before I wrecked it) on all the original factory stuff and plowed snow with a 9.5' fisher V blade. I also made countless 4x4 launches with boost and nitrous, eating vetts and stangs on the street and running a best of an 11.75 in the 1/4. The only thing I did to the front end was tie rod sleeves becasue 4x4 launches at the track with boost and enough N2O that gasser guys look at you like your from mars is hard on the stock tie rods. I made over 700HP on N2O to the rear wheels with absolutely NO MOTOR WORK. Stock turbo, stock injectors, stock heads and gaskets ect. JMO but the duramax is a great motor. Cummins is OK too but I think the Chevy package is better(hence why I bought one). Gota love that allison transmission too Speaking of allison.....if you buy a chevy buy a 6 speed. A 6 speed auto that is


 Yes ,Cyl sleeve issues! They had two apart in the shop at the time(Woburn Ma).The Chevy rep had been down and was keeping close tabs because it was the first two at the time that he had seen.This is going back a few years now when they where first introduced.I havent seen him in that long so I never did find out what the cause was.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Duramax's dont have cylinder sleeves.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

1st year Dmax had minor head problem that could result in a little fuel getting in the crankcase. 2nd year Dmax received upgrades in heads that cured that and plus made more power. 6.0 Ford had far worse fuel into the oil problems, in addition to crank sensor problems and intercooler failures. Cummins is a bulletproof motor in a turd of a truck. I speak from experience having seen firsthand what breaks and what doesnt. I drove tow trucks for many years, up until this past summer. I only ever towed TWO Duramax trucks, one was a 2500hd with a dead battery, other was a c4500 that was low on coolant so engine protection kicked in and shut it down. When Ford went from the awesome 7.3 to the POS 6.0, I towed a whole lot of them, every Ford owner I met wanted to go back to the 7.3. But I guess they have the 6.0 straightened out now. Ford also has notoriously weak front ends, I've towed a bunch that had tierods or balljoints fail just driving down the road. I only towed a couple Dodges with Cummins motors, but tons of gas engine Rams when Chrysler had that stupid fuel rail return system that burned out fuel pumps every 50,000 miles. Newer Dodges are much better, but I wouldnt even consider one unless it was an 04 or newer and had a Cummins. They finally quieted them down and got some decent power out of them. The early ones were dogs. I used to feel the same way as most guys about the live axle frontends, I had an early 90's Z71 and sold it after 6 weeks because I hated the ride. When I got my 97 1 ton I couldnt believe how much different the ride is from a half ton. Mine rides far better than a Dodge or Ford, and I don't see guy breaking front axles in GMs. In fact I've seen a lot of lifted trucks breaking front axles with solid axles, and not IFS. Anyone who thinks IFS is weaker is just uninformed. Sometimes new and improved designs are actually better. And look whos copying GM now with torsion bar front suspension. Please understand that the statements expressed in the preceding post are solely the opinion of the author. And the author is an opinionated Chevy-lovin SOB! I'd rather push my Chevy than tow your Ford!


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

Wow, what a ridiculous rant that was. Let me just rephrase that so it doesnt upset everybody; I love Chevys, I love D-maxes, and I hate just about everything else. Therefore I think you should have a Chevy with a Dmax! 

What was the question? oh yeah, Duramax versus Cummins. Hmmm. Both great motors, I'd recommend the Chevy.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*I could care what I drive.lol*



Detroitdan said:


> Wow, what a ridiculous rant that was. Let me just rephrase that so it doesnt upset everybody; I love Chevys, I love D-maxes, and I hate just about everything else. Therefore I think you should have a Chevy with a Dmax!
> 
> What was the question? oh yeah, Duramax versus Cummins. Hmmm. Both great motors, I'd recommend the Chevy.


 Get a life ,brand loyalty I love to watch guys fight over the emblem on their grill.lol I see the same thing with sleds and bikes just makes me laugh.If it does the job at hand it is the right truck for me.
All I can tell you is what a Factory Chevy Mechanic told me,He was doing the work on the engines,along with reps from GM.Is anyone here a factory trained Mechanic for GM?I'll listen.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Oshkosh said:


> All I can tell you is what a Factory Chevy Mechanic told me,He was doing the work on the engines,along with reps from GM.Is anyone here a factory trained Mechanic for GM?I'll listen.


I'm NOT a factory trained technician, but I CAN tell you that a DURAMAX doesn't have cylinder sleeves.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*well help me out,what did*



TLS said:


> I'm NOT a factory trained technician, but I CAN tell you that a DURAMAX doesn't have cylinder sleeves.


 Ok no sleves,what was wrong with the first series Duramax?They didnt pull them apart for no reason.As I stated above I never heard the conclusion.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

yardfarmer said:


> I am in the market for a plow truck. the only requests i have is that it is diesel and 4x4. i am personally a GM man, but i may be willing to settle w/ a cummins because it is such a good motor, but the rest of the truck i hear is pretty much junk (tranny, susp. parts etc.) i have never heard anything bad about duramaxs either so i am sorta stuck about what i want. any sugestions?


your absolutely right, yardfarmer. All I can say is test drive a Duramax. You wont be disappointed. I drive one for work, I can't wait until I can afford one for my personal truck.


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

Oshkosh said:


> Ok no sleves,what was wrong with the first series Duramax?They didnt pull them apart for no reason.As I stated above I never heard the conclusion.


I think it was due to injector cups leaking causing it to loose coolant which resulted in mechanics thinking it was a head gasket. They are not a sleeved motor so that is not it.
When they changed the head design it was to make the injectors servicable and keep the return lines outside the motor as the early models if leaking would fill the crank case with diesel fuel. 
The D max is just as good of a motor as the 5.9 Cummins and only time will tell if it will make the long haul, over 500,000.
No matter what truck you drive they have + and -. Buy the one you can drive and be comfortable in for long nights of plowing


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*I agree, Thank you for the information.*



Joe D said:


> I think it was due to injector cups leaking causing it to loose coolant which resulted in mechanics thinking it was a head gasket. They are not a sleeved motor so that is not it.
> When they changed the head design it was to make the injectors servicable and keep the return lines outside the motor as the early models if leaking would fill the crank case with diesel fuel.
> The D max is just as good of a motor as the 5.9 Cummins and only time will tell if it will make the long haul, over 500,000.
> No matter what truck you drive they have + and -. Buy the one you can drive and be comfortable in for long nights of plowing


 I agree,couldnt have said it better myself. If your happy with your truck it is the right truck for you.
I have never been brand loyal and do have friends that would fight for the brand they drive,just makes me smile.
I know there are better years to buy than others and better brands for a specific year, that is all I was trying to warn people about, the Duramax had issues early on.Not that it was better or worse than any of the others just a heads up,thats all.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

The heads remained the same as did power(except differences between the fed emmision and cali emmision trucks) untill mid 04. The early duramaxes had some issues with the injector cup seal leaking coolant and that getting into the oil. 

JMO but bad cylinder sleeves are not an issue But it would start to sound like a broken record in here

New used, what are you looking at?


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## firstclasslawn (Sep 5, 2005)

*Duramax*

Well, Last week my truck was getting a new transmission so I borrowed a friends 3500 duramax 4x4 dump bed with the allision! AWESOME TRUCK! Towed 12,000 trailer like nothing and got 11 mpg doing it. I was able to do 70 on the highway and still accelarate up the hills! I loved it. Now the cummins is a strong motor, but the dodge trucks are JUNK!

NOW PLEASE DON'T QUOTE ME ON THIS....I DON'T REALLY KNOW, BUT I DID HEARD THAT YOU VOID THE WHOLE FRONT END WARRENTY ON A DODGE TD BY PUTTING A PLOW ON IT. I know that the chevy WITH A PLOW PREP PACKAGE with still warrenty it.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Diesel engines are MUCH heavier than small blocks. This prevents the size load you can carry on the front axle.


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## Yaz (Apr 13, 2005)

I love my truck!

My buddy has a 05 Ford, nice but no ride comparison. 

He said..quote

GM's paint is nicer
Power folding mirrors are better (Ford does not offer)
No lighted inside door markers any more, his 02 had them
Can't wash the hood without a step stool
Heated seat button is on the side so you can't find it at night
No Onstar
No phone
no XM radio

However Ford factory 3/4 ton wheels are bigger and you can get painted wheel wheel moldings on a black truck. It nice looking i'll give it that but GMC's are nice two. nothing 285 BFG's will not straiten out!


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

Dmax was changed after the first year, went from 300 hp LB7 motor to 350 hp LLY motor.


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## ProWorkz.com (Nov 29, 2004)

*ford and cummins*

Everyone say Dodge trucks are junk except the motor. I just purchased a 94 Dodge 2500, 4 x 4 5 speed with a cummins. 180,000 miles and runs like new. Truck still has stock clutch. Dash is not cracked. All power windows, door locks, ect still work great. All suspension components are in excellent shape and are original except front ball joints and track rod.

I purchased the truck from the original owner that had every warranty ticket from Dodge. Only 4 warranty issues in 11 years. Did I get lucky?? Maybe. Or maybe the previous owner took good car of the truck...

Every brand of truck has issues with one thing or another.

Can't wait for Ford to start running the Cummins... Because it is going to happen......

I have seen brand new fords, chevys and dodges broke down on the side of the road.... Shiz nit happens...

I would be happy with any newer diesel....!!!!


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Detroitdan said:


> Dmax was changed after the first year, went from 300 hp LB7 motor to 350 hp LLY motor.


This information is incorrect.

The only thing you have right is the LB7's being rated at 300hp.

The LLY's were NOT 350hp (some were 310hp)

The LBZ's (2006, just came out) are rated at 360hp


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## GetMore (Mar 19, 2005)

I know someone with a 12 second D/A Silverado and we were discussing the Duramax vs. Powerstroke vs. Cummins a few years ago. His take on it was that the old Chevy diesels were not that good, the Fords were okay, and the Cummins was the best. 
Then the Duramax came out. In stock form the Ford engine made more power. The Dodge made the least, but then again it is down a few cubes, so it's not doing too bad.
However, when you start modifying them the Duramax kicks ass. Dodge used to be the king, as they would take all kinds of abuse and some engines were running 60psi or so of boost. The Duramax is capable of even more than the Cummins and can make some really sick power without breaking a sweat. Ford? Well they're okay, but not as capable.

I know that Ford and Dodge have been working on improving their transmissions, where as GM has always ruled there. The Allison transmission is the best. They built it so that you almost _can't_ kill it. If the sensors do sense slippage the ECU puts it into "limp mode" (resettable with the ignition) so that you won't damage it and you will know that there was a problem.
I say get the Chevy, both becasue I am a GM fan and because I think the D/A combo is the best choice. It has been out long enough to prove itself. Of course if you get the Dodge you are getting a proven engine as well, but their transmissions haven't been out long enough.
Either way, I'm sure you'll do fine.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

TLS said:


> This information is incorrect.
> 
> The only thing you have right is the LB7's being rated at 300hp.
> 
> ...


Okay, maybe so, but why do they say this years motor is an increase of only 10 hp over last? I may have my years mixed up, but I thought I remember them getting a 50 hp increase one year.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

01-04.5 LB7 designation motors are rated at 300HP from the factory. 04.5 LLY motors are 310HP from the factory when mated to an allison, 300 behind the stick. The new LBZ(came out middle of this model year) are rated at 360 HP. Trust me


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## BreyerConstruct (Aug 17, 2004)

However, still only 300 with a stick.

but a cool looking truck! 

~Matt


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

Heres what I think....I have had Fords ( lost a rear end, fixed some stuff in the front, and minor engine work). I have had Chevys ( lost a tranny, minor front and rear end work, and work on the transfer case). I have had Dodges (minor work to the rear end, transfer case, and replaced many a u-joint). So basically I think your going to have problems with what ever you drive and plow with. Personally I have never knowen anyone to have a perfect, trouble-free truck. :salute:


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## sixspeed (Oct 22, 2004)

I'm sure that the reason that the early Cummins had durability is that they were severely detuned for the weaknesses in the early RAM platform. The 1995 Cummins made an okay 225 hp with the NV4500 but only 180 with the automatic probably to save the tranny. I remember driving both and the Cummins/auto felt slower than a Toyota 22r. IMHO they were definitely detuned by Mopar to save breakage.


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## cornbinder (Oct 16, 2005)

yeah,the can of worms i hear opening!(ha-ha) i have both, ford diesel and a cummins, they're both good engines.ford has 200,000 with not 1 problem 1set of glow plugs $80.00 for all 8. no problems with cummins 162,000 miles , but i'm waiting for that expensive inj. pump to go. i have a uncle that's on the "inside" at GM and strait from the horses mouth, duramax's had cylinder wear problem's. during durability runs the duramax was literally wore out by 100,000 miles. due to premature cylinder wear. and that was before the duramax was even in the showroom yet.would you want an izusu motor in your truck? go with what's tried and true, the ford or dodge. thanks, pete


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## cornbinder (Oct 16, 2005)

now that's a runnin f---ing diesel!!!!!


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

cornbinder said:


> yeah,the can of worms i hear opening!(ha-ha) i have both, ford diesel and a cummins, they're both good engines.ford has 200,000 with not 1 problem 1set of glow plugs $80.00 for all 8. no problems with cummins 162,000 miles , but i'm waiting for that expensive inj. pump to go. i have a uncle that's on the "inside" at GM and strait from the horses mouth, duramax's had cylinder wear problem's. during durability runs the duramax was literally wore out by 100,000 miles. due to premature cylinder wear. and that was before the duramax was even in the showroom yet.would you want an izusu motor in your truck? go with what's tried and true, the ford or dodge. thanks, pete


So, do you think thats the motor they went with? Or do you suppose they corrected the problem before sending them out? Sounds to me like normal stuff that shows up when shaking down a new design. Thats why they do it, to find problems before it goes into production. I have seen a lot of D-maxes up in the 200000 mile range with nothing done to them.


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

Isuzu induction hardens the cylinder walls. They will not wear the cylinder walls. Your uncle in the know should have known that.
Isuzu is a tried and true diesel engine manufacturer that may be the largest in the world so I would have to say they know something about designing a diesel engine.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

Isuzu has made thier share of diesel engines. As was said the duramax uses induction hardend cylinders. The duramax is rated at 200k miles before major overhall. I have seen the cylinder walls of a duramax that still had the hone marks in the cylinders after a **** ton of miles on it with N2O and truck pulling running bottom 12's in a crew cab. I know of a couple guys with 300k on thier duramax and all they do is tow. One has had the edge on his truck since 60k. I ran 55k miles with most of those at 500RWHP(what I ran before I wrecked my truck) and the rest at 340 RWHP(both numbers dyno proven) with an occasional trip to over 700HP at the rear wheels on N2O. No issues with the motor. Someone is blowing smoke out thier ass cornbinder, either you, your uncle, or this horse.....speaking of horse, all I smell is horse s.....well you get the idea.


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