# In bad economy, low-ballers rule.



## cjasonbr (Nov 18, 2005)

I think i've received close to 8 calls from people apologetically canceling me. They say they found a better rate and usually it blows mine away. I lost a commercial lot that someone bid $40 on. I'm losing my $35 driveways, which is our minimum, to people who bid $20.

I call the people back and tell them that the only reason that person can beat my rates that badly is because they probably don't have commercial insurance and don't pay taxes. I could charge $20 a driveway too if I didn't have any overhead i tell them. They're apologetic and pretty much tell me that they don't care.

My commercial car ins premium increased this year too for some reason. What the hell, i'd need 60 driveways to break even at $20 a pop. 

I think it's a combination of people not wanting to spend money in hard times, and others trying to make a few extra bucks in hard times.


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## ABES (Jun 10, 2007)

Weve taken a hit this year too. The guys with just 1 truck and plow that work out of there house without insurance can do it so much cheaper without rent on a shop and insurance payments.


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## ColliganLands (Sep 4, 2008)

i had problems signing contracts for my first year my minimumis also 35 dollars and people were telling me its too high. but my insurance is close to 2 grand and other expenses etc. so i wound up with 4 driveways and then signed on with a town.
times are tough i guess but i still cant justify 20 bucks a drive no fing way


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

I told you that last year and everyone here (except people in michigan) poo-poohed me saying it wasn't about price.

You either need to find a better way to do things (more driveways same time)

or

Find out how to get the insurance police after them. (maybe they need to be registered as a business. Tractors & SS's here (colorado) need plates (really expensive plates). I have the number on speed dial for the DMV investigator when I find one without them.

Write a letter to the editor to the newspaper, etc, etc, etc


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## cjasonbr (Nov 18, 2005)

Great Lone Cowboy. So all i need to do is start doing driveways for $20, but have them be all next to each other. Why didn't i think of that?

Seriously though, there's just nothing you can do to compete with people operating illegally. It's up to the consumer to differentiate, and unfortunately most aren't knowledgeable enough to tell the difference, or know there is a difference.

Does homeowners insurance even cover uninsured contractors? I think that if an uninsured plow-truck you've contracted slides through your garage door then it's your own fault for hiring a contractor without insurance and i don't think that homeowners ins. covers it.

Edit: I found this tidbit about homeowners ins:

When you as a homeowner have an un-licensed and/or un-insured contractor/handyman doing work on your property, you put yourself at tremendous financial risk. You run the risk of being subject to anyone, or even all of the following if the contractor is injured while working on your home:

* Medical bills for injured contractor/handyman
* Lawsuit by contractor/handyman
* Increase in insurance policy cost or cancelation of policy by insurance company

No coverage under homeowner's policy. Some homeowners believe it is safe to use an uninsured contractor, assuming that any damages incurred would be covered under their own insurance policies. However, this isn't the case. Most homeowner policies require that any work to the property be done by licensed contractors; coverage is often specifically excluded for damages caused by "bootleg" contractors.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Actually this happens in good and bad times. You need to be thick skin in this business. Just thank them and tell them if they need your services in the future you'll be available


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## Sydenstricker Landscaping (Dec 17, 2006)

Whats wrong with a one truck guy working out of his house?? That is what I do and have plenty of insurance and pay taxes. I got 2mill GL and 500K commercial auto on the truck and the trailer. My GL is 600 for the year and 1400 is for the auto. So dont go kicking in us one truck no shop guys doors in!!!!!! Just cause you got a shop and 2 trucks, doesnt mean you are the best thing since sliced bread. I like having everything here, cuts down on wasted time driving to a shop, and I for sure dont have to worry about theft as much. And I bet my garage is just as nice as some people's shops are set up, granted I cant fit an enclosed trailer in there. Around here, anyway, seems like all the big guys with the big shops and fancy shmancy trucks are the ones driving the prices into the dirt!!!!!!!!!! I think it is more of a I need a ton of work to keep my guys busy and trucks paid for, so lets bid low and get a bunch of work. I see it happen around here all the time. Some of the prices those guys give out, I wouldnt even put my boots on for. So it isnt always about the big flashy crap


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## cjasonbr (Nov 18, 2005)

grandview;670697 said:


> Actually this happens in good and bad times. You need to be thick skin in this business. Just thank them and tell them if they need your services in the future you'll be available


Yea It happens every year. But this is the first year that good customers apologetically leave for a lowball price. I think they know im right about it not being a good idea, but they just chance it anyways. I think in some ways they don't want me to tell them what they already might suspect that the guy probably doesn't have insurance etc etc.

I think the economy has a lot to do with it this year. More people lookin for extra money and more people lookin to save money.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I think if gas prices had gone up to 5.00 a gallon it would of weeded out a lot of guys this yr and a few from starting next yr. It may of brought the prices up for us that survived.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

grandview;670737 said:


> I think if gas prices had gone up to 5.00 a gallon it would of weeded out a lot of guys this yr and a few from starting next yr. It may of brought the prices up for us that survived.


you're dead nuts on that. In the fall I was cherry picking accounts cause the guys who do this for supplemental income didn't find it lucrative enough. Now that gas is down under $2/gal again they're all back. Lost an account the other day 'cause the old guy came back and wants to plow again'. I wouldn't budge on my price, because I told her that 'thats the price no matter what gas does this winter.' she couldn't understand that and went with the cheaper guy for $6 less. Our excellent reputation, honest wage and professionalism didn't out weigh saving $6. I told her to call if she needed anything in the future if it didn't work out with the other guy and we would be happy to help. I can't wait to see how long it takes for her to get plowed out this winter.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

Just because some of us work from home doesn't make us legit contractors. I have 3 million liability coverage 5 trucks, a wheelloader, & 2 skidsteers all commercially insured. I bought this place so I could work from home. We looked at commercial properties, we ended up moving & buying a portion of a farm (house & barn). I can work from the shop I have (36 X 80), & not have neighbors to complain (apple trees & corn don't have phones yet). This is a seasonal business to justify paying rent on a commercial property year round would be VERY tough & would make it very tough to compete. BTW with a $ 35 min here people would laugh at you, there are guys doing it Residentials for $ 150/season.


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## mksuwndr (Nov 24, 2008)

Ive seen the low ballers come in and under bid alot. I also see you getting alot of your accounts back because these guys take on too many accounts and dont have the equipment or manpower to complete the job correctly and on time. It happened here last year and low baller was up to a week behind on accounts. Sometimes it takes time for people to see you get what you pay for.

just my .02:salute:


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

If you are doing ok its hard to see how bad it might be for the $20 guy. Remember he is trying to "survive" you are trying to run a business. Its not the same really. 
There are all different levels of them, some are using the snowblower they have, some are throwing the last $2000 at the truck to get a plow, so they dont miss a payment.

We are noticing it on our residentials, someone in the neighborhood got a snowblower and does the whole court. They probably have no idea they made us mad. 
I was thinking about getting in contact with him and hireing him.... even at his rates that he charges, I can still make $15 a drive and not have to work... pretty easy

Everyone wants to try to be a business owner, be your own boss, come on its the greatest, no sometimes it SUCKS. 
Wait till my new guy has a christmas party to go to, or his blower pukes. 

Just try and make it easy for them to come back to you if they need you, other then that not much you can do. 

You have to think sometimes, if you feel you have it bad, think about the other guys.
I own a computer store and its cut throat and even worst now that gas is cheap, people will drive 400kms for a door crasher. I have 3 other computer guys in town, that all buy their parts from me, now isnt that stupid? 1 is store!!! we say "others will come and go we are here to stay" and "some of our best customers, get their friends friends, neighbor whos a computer IT guy to fix it"


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

grandview;670737 said:


> I think if gas prices had gone up to 5.00 a gallon it would of weeded out a lot of guys this yr and a few from starting next yr. It may of brought the prices up for us that survived.


YES - and they wouldnt all be able to now think, well im use to spending whatever on gas so now I have an extra $20 to save on my commute, so I can buy a plow/blower.

Wait till it spikes up again, they will have to install puke buckets at the pump


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## DCSpecial (Nov 16, 2008)

cjasonbr;670680 said:


> Edit: I found this tidbit about homeowners ins:
> 
> When you as a homeowner have an un-licensed and/or un-insured contractor/handyman doing work on your property, you put yourself at tremendous financial risk. You run the risk of being subject to anyone, or even all of the following if the contractor is injured while working on your home:
> 
> ...


Yep, a friend of one of our customers had some work done by someone who wasn't insured and his employee either cut his leg/foot really bad or partially off with a string trimmer with a brush disc on it......homeowner got sued by the injured employee.

Another customer hand an employee of a carpenter cut all but his thumb off his hand while building a library in his house. 
Very important to make sure the contractors have the proper coverage to protect yourself.

Not snow plow related, but a lot of towns around here are getting strict on allowing construction work or any work for that matter (even lawn mowing). You have to get a license to work in the town, require a copy of your coverage, bonded for 250k-500k+, refundable deposit of 2-5k to ensure you don't mess up the street or right of way, etc..
That definitely weeds out a lot of smaller people doing it themselves w/o the proper insurance, etc..


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## cjasonbr (Nov 18, 2005)

LoneCowboy;670656 said:


> Write a letter to the editor to the newspaper, etc, etc, etc


LOL. Now that i've done something pro-active can i go back to complaining? haha. Sent this to the local paper. I probably just wasted 20 minutes of my life writing it.

To whom it may concern:
I am a snow plowing contractor working in western MA and i just wanted to send you a quick story idea. In this line of business the pricing is very much varied, and upon working in the business it is very apparent that there are two types of snow plow contractor: Insured and not insured.

Snow Plowing is an unlicensed profession, so nobody is overseeing anybody to make sure they have the proper insurance like is required for Plumbers, Electricians.. etc to be licensed. The additional insurance to carry a 800 lb steel blade on the front of a vehicle, and commercially plow driveways is very significant. Liability insurance is an additional expense. Just as an example my commercial insurance for my 2 trucks is close to $500 a month and my liability ins. is $800 a year.

Many, many plow-contractors simply insure their truck just like anyone else would insure their car with basic insurance, attach a plow to their truck and call themselves a plow company. Obviously any damages they may cause would not be covered under a basic auto policy. The result though is a very minimum overhead,and their pricing is significantly lower than companies with the proper insurance. I've seen many people charging $20 for driveways on signs on the side of the road and wonder how they break even if they have proper insurance.

I've done a very limited amount of research into the consequences of using an uninsured contractor and from what i can ascertain most homeowners policy's classify them as "boot-leg" contractors and specifically exclude coverage if one is hired. Accidents do happen, especially when you throw in snow, ice and poor working conditions that are typical to this kind of job. If a boot-leg contractor is who caused the damage, then it is insured by nobody. If he hits the gas instead of the break and puts a whole through the garage, who's going to fix it? The guy that charges $20 a driveway? I doubt it. hes out of business now because he just smashed his truck through your garage and insurance wont cover it because he wasn't insured to plow snow! Homeowners wont cover it either.

I've been getting slammed this year. My former customers are apologetic when they canceled their service, they had been customer for many years and praised my work, but said they had found a lower price, often times so low that i can't believe it. I don't think they realize what they are getting for that lower price. Often times i try to explain to them what kind of overhead a properly insured plow company, but i don't want to look like i'm just scrambling to keep their business.

There are all kind of other aspects to this topic too:
- The homeowner is actually liable for any damages. So the boot-leg contractor could actually sue the homeowner for any damages they caused. Even if the homeowner wins they're homeowners insurance premium goes up.

- There are a number of factors that have made uninsured, boot-leg contractors more rampant than usual this year.
1) Bad economy and people looking to make an extra few bucks so they throw a plow on the front of their truck and start a plow company
2) Bad economy and homeowners more willing to accept the lowest offer to save money.
3) The recent drop in gas prices is a BIG reason. For boot-leg contractors fuel is their biggest expense, so now that fuel is so low they're coming out of the woodwork.

I wish people were more informed. I have a minimum charge of $35 for any driveway. Often times people will switch to a guy that will plow it for $20, but they don't realize that $15 just cost them millions in insurance coverage and left them with none. It happens very, very often.

I genuinely hope you find this story intriguing. I think it would be a tremendous service to inform people of these happenings. I don't believe most people would jump at the lowest price anymore if they knew what they were really buying.


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## Advantage (Nov 7, 2007)

Great job. It will take a lot of effort on our part to educate our clients and the public on this issue but it is important that we do so.


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## Hunter9 (Jul 7, 2006)

Stick to your guns, driveways here run between $25-35 for the most part. I just picked up 2 from lowballers that were doing them for $15. Both customers were not happy with the shoddy plowing. When I asked how long they had used them; both were first year using their respective guy. Both told me that I was high, I said that the cost to plow snow is much more than people think. Fuel, maint, ins, time, etc all cost money. I told them I would not short change myself and more importantly my customers. I perform a service to my best ability and try to excel at exceeding customer expectations. I cater to a specific type customer, I plow, shovel, spread salt (sometimes the customers) and communicate with them often to address any questions/concerns they may have. I let the low ballers fight over customers that lower the value of a the service we provide to $10-$20. Work less make more money, profit and success is almost never measured my the amount of driveways you plow. I do a 3 hr route and make more profit than most running double that.

Last night I had a customer (2nd year) tell me that in 10 years (and 5 other plowers) of having their large driveway done that I was by far the best they have ever had and take better care of them then they expect. BTW, their price will go up again next year.


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## Dirtboy953B (Aug 24, 2008)

I lost several bids this year for salt to people putting it down for $100.00 a/ton.....I can;t even buy it for that.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

They aren't putting down a ton, there putting down 500 lbs. Don't you know the pickup v boxes can hold 10 ton. It is an industry problem, not just localized either.


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## topdj (Oct 6, 2007)

a case where the snow plower did not have GL and went after his broker..... never heard of this before


5/9/06 Republic Long Island, Inc. v. Vanacore

Appellate Division, Second Department

Slip and Fall in Parking Lot Not Accident ‘Arising Out of Ownership, Maintenance or Use’ of an Automobile but Broker May Face E&O Claim

The underlying action concerned a slip and fall in a parking lot that had been snowplowed by Republic. The appellant requested indemnification and defense in the underlying action from G.M.A.C. The policy contains a standard automobile liability provision which requires the insurers to defend and indemnify their insured for accidents resulting in bodily injury or property damage, arising out of the "ownership, maintenance, or use" of the insured vehicle. The Supreme Court properly found that the accident was not covered by the above "use and operation" clause, because the injuries "did not result from the intrinsic nature of the motor vehicle as such, nor did the use of the automobile itself produce the injury, but, at most, contributed to the condition which produced it." 


However, the Supreme Court should have denied the separate motion of Vanacore (the broker), for summary judgment. "Generally . . . insurance agents have a common-law duty to obtain requested coverage for their clients within a reasonable time or inform the client of the inability to do so" (Murphy v Kuhn, 90 NY2d 266). In opposition to the motion, Republic submitted an affidavit from its principal in which he stated that the broker failed to advise him of its inability to procure general liability coverage for the appellant's snowplowing activities. This was sufficient to raise a question of fact as to whether the broker failed to exercise due care in the transaction.


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## topdj (Oct 6, 2007)

if you were wondering what the reference to the case in the above suit

don't blame your insurance agent if you don't get the right insurance coverage 
and get it in writing.

MURPHY v. KUHN
90 N.Y.2d 266, 682 N.E.2d 972; 660 N.Y.S.2d 371 (N.Y. 1997)
Bellacosa, J.
The question for this case is whether an insurance agent should be liable to a former customer for tortious misrepresentation and breach of implied contract. The alleged wrongdoing is a failure of the defendant insurance agent to advise plaintiff Thomas Murphy as to possible additional insurance coverage needs. The theory of the lawsuit and the asserted duty is a special relationship and special level of advisory responsibility. The Appellate Division affirmed an order of Supreme Court, which granted defendants' motion for summary judgment and dismissed the complaint. Plaintiffs appeal pursuant to leave granted by this Court. We affirm the order of the Appellate Division because no special relationship was established on this record.
Plaintiffs Thomas Murphy and Webster Golf Course, Inc. sued defendants Donald C. Kuhn, Kuhn & Pedulla Agency, Inc., and its predecessor Roman A. Kuhn Agency, alleging professional negligence and breach of implied contract. This dispute originates in a 1991 automobile accident in Florida involving Murphy's son. One person died and several others suffered serious injuries as a result of the accident. At that time, the title to the son's car was in his father's name and the personal insurance was placed under the commercial automobile policy covering Murphy's business, Webster Golf Course, Inc. After exhausting the $ 500,000 policy limit to settle the car accident claims, Thomas Murphy assertedly paid an additional $ 194,429.50 plus $ 7,500 in attorneys' fees. Then, he sued these defendants to recover the additional sums he had to pay personally.
Defendants began providing the property, casualty and liability insurance to plaintiffs in 1973 in connection with their golf business. Beginning in 1977, defendant Donald Kuhn also handled all of Murphy's personal insurance needs, providing him with both homeowners insurance and personal automobile coverage. In 1979, plaintiff Thomas Murphy and his partner, Edward Rieflin, completed their purchase of the Happy Acres Golf Course and formed Webster Golf Course, Inc. Happy Acres had been a client of the Roman A. Kuhn Agency since 1957.
In 1990, Kuhn placed personal automobile coverage for Murphy with The Hartford, as insurer. Later that year, Hartford notified Murphy that his coverage was in danger of cancellation due to the poor driving records of his children. Murphy then transferred the insurance covering his son's car, which was registered and titled in Murphy's name, from Murphy's personal policy to Webster Golf Course's commercial automobile insurance policy. Murphy testified at his deposition that it was his standard arrangement to place title and register his children's cars in his name. From 1984 until the time of the accident, the liability limits on the commercial policy were $ 250,000 per person and $ 500,000 total per accident. Murphy never requested higher liability coverage for his personal and family automobile insurance needs, which were subsumed within the commercial automobile liability policy.
[The trial court] concluded that, absent a request by the customer, an insurance agent "owes no continuing duty to advise, guide or direct the customer to obtain additional coverage." Therefore, acknowledging that on this record plaintiffs never specifically requested defendants to increase the liability limits on the commercial automobile policy, the court held that defendants owed no special duty of affirmative advisement to plaintiffs. The court also declined to adopt plaintiffs' "special relationship" theory.
Plaintiffs propose that insurance agents can assume or acquire legal duties not existing at common law by entering into a special relationship of trust and confidence with their customers. Specifically, plaintiffs contend that a special relationship developed from a long, continuing course of business between plaintiffs and defendant insurance agent, generating special reliance and an affirmative duty to advise with regard to appropriate or additional coverage.
Generally, the law is reasonably settled on initial principles that insurance agents have a common-law duty to obtain requested coverage for their clients within a reasonable time or inform the client of the inability to do so; however, they have no continuing duty to advise, guide or direct a client to obtain additional coverage. Notably, no New York court has applied plaintiffs' proffered "special relationship" analysis to add such continuing duties to the agent-insured relationship.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

I went from one truck to two this year. running an auto repair shop i have to have the insurance on the trucks anyhow. so plowing don't change my ins one bit. i had to pick up 4 hours of work, so each truck has 6 hour route.

i picked up some jobs by what you all call lowballing them... I got my ins agent, he paid $60 for 10 parking space lot that has to be done before 8 am last year this year I'm doing it for $50 credit on my ins.

here the good part (for me at least) the insurance agent got me 4 driveways @$30 each and small used car dealership $150. plus they are using us as there recomended towing company for anyone that calls. were also storing there accident involved cars @$10 a day per car.


if you got the trucks and equitment, if it is setting idle it's not making any money, it is costing you money. why when times are tough would you not go look for work to at least break even. that way you still have your trucks paid for, and can try again at making $$ next year.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Yeah people could care less about insurances, legitimate companies etc. As long as you show up, most even will get over the fact they'll probably get bottom notch service, as long as their getting it for "half" of your price, they still think they got a good deal in the end.

I stopped arguing with people years ago, do you think they CARE if we pay taxes or not? hell no. Insurances that cost a ton? they dont care, overhead, fancy equipment, good response times, professionalism on the job and as a company, dont care because theyre paying half as much or less.'

All this and in NJ, it keeps getting harder and they keep imposing new statues to govern the industry. Why are they bothering the legitimate companies and there's NO rulings for the joe bloes out there every day plowing and cutting grass?

Sucks i know, ive lost "real estate agency" accounts after say quoting $300 for a parking lot, i then tell them, since times are tight with money, we would offer the same service but towards the end of our route for half price $150.00. They still didnt take it. One place said they have a guy that will salt for $25 any time he comes out and plow the place out for $75

:realmad: I got $300 per plow last year for under 4" and $135 to salt and cma on sidewalks, lol $25 i wont even start the truck for that much!


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Sydenstricker Landscaping;670714 said:


> Whats wrong with a one truck guy working out of his house?? That is what I do and have plenty of insurance and pay taxes. I got 2mill GL and 500K commercial auto on the truck and the trailer. My GL is 600 for the year and 1400 is for the auto. So dont go kicking in us one truck no shop guys doors in!!!!!! Just cause you got a shop and 2 trucks, doesnt mean you are the best thing since sliced bread. I like having everything here, cuts down on wasted time driving to a shop, and I for sure dont have to worry about theft as much. And I bet my garage is just as nice as some people's shops are set up, granted I cant fit an enclosed trailer in there. Around here, anyway, seems like all the big guys with the big shops and fancy shmancy trucks are the ones driving the prices into the dirt!!!!!!!!!! I think it is more of a I need a ton of work to keep my guys busy and trucks paid for, so lets bid low and get a bunch of work. I see it happen around here all the time. Some of the prices those guys give out, I wouldnt even put my boots on for. So it isnt always about the big flashy crap


lol chill out dude. The guys with multiple plow trucks and shops probably arnt worried about the $20-$50 residential driveways at all anyway, theyre all yours. I used to do lots of these, snow blowing and all until i got people constantly wanting to pay less, i got less and less advanced signups, people low balling WHILE onsite, problems at each house, like cars parked in driveway etc...

I have a newer diesel ford, 5k plow, 2k spreader, 1k+ lightbar, 2k insurance, 1k tires etc... all that goes to waste when your plowing little driveways, since i could take my old 204k mile 1991 Ford 5.0L f150 and a 10 year old 7' snow plow and push a few inches in peoples driveways... and make the same money right?


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

your right midtownpc... we had 4 residential 1acre+ lawn accounts last year, a guy/company was going under or not responding to calls this spring, so i was looking/hoping to pick up all of his accounts too, like 8 more, all in a row. This was going to be golden.. but nada.

a neighborhood kid i found out was using his dads 48" zero turn toro mower they used on their own 1 acre property and cutting the whole block, for like $20 a house lol. We charged $54/51/52 and $48 per property in this place in 2007, in 2008, instead of picking up 8, we lost ALL 4, thats $1000 PER MONTH we lost just in residential mowing! Didndt look like much trimming got done ever, or at least not well when it was that i noticed this summer, but i guess none cared at $20 per cut. 

Theyre only paying $80 a month versus my $200+ and thats $5 cheaper just because theyre all close to each other already!


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

Ramairfreak98ss;697020 said:


> I stopped arguing with people years ago, do you think they CARE if we pay taxes or not? hell no. Insurances that cost a ton? they dont care, overhead, fancy equipment, good response times, professionalism on the job and as a company, dont care because theyre paying half as much or less.'
> 
> All this and in NJ, it keeps getting harder and they keep imposing new statues to govern the industry. Why are they bothering the legitimate companies and there's NO rulings for the joe bloes out there every day plowing and cutting grass?
> !


yep, amazing isn't it?
Almost like the .gov is trying to put the legitimate guys out of business and let the illegals do fine.
Of course, after a while, we are all going to give up and then who is going to pay the taxes?

They never seem to think about that.

If we aren't going to remove all the laws/penalties/fees/permits, etc (which seems blatantly obvious), perhaps we need to start enforcing penalties on the employers. You use an unlicensed contractor and get caught YOU pay the penalty. That might stop it.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

LoneCowboy;697075 said:


> ...If we aren't going to remove all the laws/penalties/fees/permits, etc (which seems blatantly obvious), perhaps we need to start enforcing penalties on the employers. You use an unlicensed contractor and get caught YOU pay the penalty. That might stop it.


Don't bet on it. You'll find it's usually cheaper to pay the fine IF you get caught, than play it straight to begin with. Happens everywhere and all the time.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

Mick;697084 said:


> Don't bet on it. You'll find it's usually cheaper to pay the fine IF you get caught, than play it straight to begin with. Happens everywhere and all the time.


I think you missed my point.
Not you the contractor, you the homeowner, the business, the whatever

For example, in Colorado self-propelled machinery, used commercially off your own property is required to have a license plate (stupid, but true, and crazy expensive).
Notice the definition, that includes those riding lawnmowers, in addition to backhoes, tractors, bobcats, etc

Big companies all have these plates, but most smaller guys don't. I do. (the fine is double the fee BTW). But, that makes it that much harder to compete on price because I have to pay out another $3000 bucks a year to our wonderful government authorities.

Now, the fine is double the fee if you get caught, but obviously most contractors don't bother.
but what if they changed the fine so that it gets the people who hire you instead of the people doing the work. Think people would look more closely at who they hire and if they are properly registered?

Maybe, maybe not, but it's certainly worth thinking about, because the system we have is just boning the people who try to play by the rules. (like us)


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

LoneCowboy;697098 said:


> Now, the fine is double the fee if you get caught, but obviously most contractors don't bother.
> but what if they changed the fine so that it gets the people who hire you instead of the people doing the work. Think people would look more closely at who they hire and if they are properly registered?
> 
> Maybe, maybe not, but it's certainly worth thinking about, because the system we have is just boning the people who try to play by the rules. (like us)


sounds good to me lol. A buddy of mine always shows his insurance and registration information to his clients.. I've asked him, Why? He said just because they understand that hes actually legit.. i still side with my idea that they really dont care. Because if his price is $50 per driveway showing his documentation, and joe blowes $40 per.. theyll still take the $40 guy.

People look at it like the electronics best buy extended warranty plans that add 10% price to each item purchased, they dont need it to get the bottom line accomplished.


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

Sydenstricker Landscaping;670714 said:


> Whats wrong with a one truck guy working out of his house?? That is what I do and have plenty of insurance and pay taxes. I got 2mill GL and 500K commercial auto on the truck and the trailer. My GL is 600 for the year and 1400 is for the auto. So dont go kicking in us one truck no shop guys doors in!!!!!! Just cause you got a shop and 2 trucks, doesnt mean you are the best thing since sliced bread. I like having everything here, cuts down on wasted time driving to a shop, and I for sure dont have to worry about theft as much. And I bet my garage is just as nice as some people's shops are set up, granted I cant fit an enclosed trailer in there. Around here, anyway, seems like all the big guys with the big shops and fancy shmancy trucks are the ones driving the prices into the dirt!!!!!!!!!! I think it is more of a I need a ton of work to keep my guys busy and trucks paid for, so lets bid low and get a bunch of work. I see it happen around here all the time. Some of the prices those guys give out, I wouldnt even put my boots on for. So it isnt always about the big flashy crap


I heard that! It's the same way in Columbus. I hope most of these "big timers" fold under the weight of their massive overhead costs.


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

Why can't you have contracts? $350 for 4 months? 2 to 2 1/2 inch trigger? I could never survive on a per plow season.


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## Dissociative (Feb 28, 2007)

it happens in every trade, in every state...it's the American way...when things get tight you do what you have to do to survive..not condoning cheating...but prices fall because people are mabey just able to take a less profit for the same job than you want to...not thier fault they will do it for less...IF IT'S ON THE UP AND UP

either get in the race to make the money or get out of the way....i hate it as much as you but you can't fault ANYONE for trying to make some cake to support their family in this economy.

again..if it's all legit....it's just the way it goes....carpenters have been showing up in my area working for 1/3rd less for a while now....so i just need to do what i have to to compete...thats just it...like it or not


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

martyman;698878 said:


> Why can't you have contracts? $350 for 4 months? 2 to 2 1/2 inch trigger? I could never survive on a per plow season.


I'm with you Martyman. I service your city (Markham) and if I were on a per plow I'd probably go broke. I like guaranteed income! It allows me to run my business full time and not work for someone else.


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## Winter Land Man (Aug 9, 2005)

cjasonbr;670583 said:


> I think i've received close to 8 calls from people apologetically canceling me. They say they found a better rate and usually it blows mine away. I lost a commercial lot that someone bid $40 on. I'm losing my $35 driveways, which is our minimum, to people who bid $20.
> 
> I call the people back and tell them that the only reason that person can beat my rates that badly is because they probably don't have commercial insurance and don't pay taxes. I could charge $20 a driveway too if I didn't have any overhead i tell them. They're apologetic and pretty much tell me that they don't care.
> 
> ...


I've lost gas stations and stores to people who stop at the store often, willing to plow the parking lots for a free cup of coffee or pack of cigarettes.


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## Dissociative (Feb 28, 2007)

Winter Land Man;698957 said:


> I've lost gas stations and stores to people who stop at the store often, willing to plow the parking lots for a free cup of coffee or pack of cigarettes.


haven't you ever helped out someplace you frequent?..throw them a bone or a great deal because you're going there anyway? Mabey know the staff by name you're there so much..

i don;t see anything wrong with that....IMO...small guys helping other small guys...i mean i'm sure it's no huge place for that rate....

kinda sucks for you, but thats the ropes..

remember guys....you all have stories but i am sure everyone of you has done this to someone else sometime..(prolly without even knowing it) .you all got you're accounts from somebody else's losses.....somebody had to stop doing them for you to start....not saying this was reason for everyone but i bet it's for a few...


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## Dissociative (Feb 28, 2007)

RODHALL;696987 said:


> I went from one truck to two this year. running an auto repair shop i have to have the insurance on the trucks anyhow. so plowing don't change my ins one bit. i had to pick up 4 hours of work, so each truck has 6 hour route.
> 
> i picked up some jobs by what you all call lowballing them... I got my ins agent, he paid $60 for 10 parking space lot that has to be done before 8 am last year this year I'm doing it for $50 credit on my ins.
> 
> ...


see, this guy get's it.......do work son!!!....go on and get you some!!!>.....

this title should be "in a bad economy those willing to do what it takes rule"


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

I'm not sure aboout all over but here locally, we have to provide proof of insurance to all of our customers. It is a requirement but most places I work for a large property owners and they know the games folks play and we can't play them nor would we! Not being propertly covered will eventually bite them promised!


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

Ramairfreak98ss;697020 said:


> Yeah people could care less about insurances, legitimate companies etc. As long as you show up, most even will get over the fact they'll probably get bottom notch service, as long as their getting it for "half" of your price, they still think they got a good deal in the end.
> 
> I stopped arguing with people years ago, do you think they CARE if we pay taxes or not? hell no. Insurances that cost a ton? they dont care, overhead, fancy equipment, good response times, professionalism on the job and as a company, dont care because theyre paying half as much or less.'


Not here good luck getting anything worth while plowing/salting without all the proper information. A good reputation, proper insurance, references, etc. You must have them....too bad for your area. Now if we were doing driveways, who would care?


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## LHK2 (Jan 22, 2007)

I love it when some chimes in and rants and raves and say they have there insurance and run there business out of there garage, it keeps there overhead low.. Great, have you checked your city codes? Guess not, most cities won't allow you to run out of your garage, so don't go around bashing the guys with shops.


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## Dissociative (Feb 28, 2007)

yeah....sub contractors can't run from home.....where is this law again?????


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## In2toys (Jan 25, 2006)

a neighborhood kid i found out was using his dads 48" zero turn toro mower they used on their own 1 acre property and cutting the whole block, for like $20 a house lol. We charged $54/51/52 and $48 per property in this place in 2007, in 2008, instead of picking up 8, we lost ALL 4, thats $1000 PER MONTH we lost just in residential mowing! Didndt look like much trimming got done ever, or at least not well when it was that i noticed this summer, but i guess none cared at $20 per cut. 

CMON now, how many of you guys got your start in lawns the same way???


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

In2toys;700311 said:


> a neighborhood kid i found out was using his dads 48" zero turn toro mower they used on their own 1 acre property and cutting the whole block, for like $20 a house lol. We charged $54/51/52 and $48 per property in this place in 2007, in 2008, instead of picking up 8, we lost ALL 4, thats $1000 PER MONTH we lost just in residential mowing! Didndt look like much trimming got done ever, or at least not well when it was that i noticed this summer, but i guess none cared at $20 per cut.
> 
> CMON now, how many of you guys got your start in lawns the same way???


I'm not in landscaping but I am in seal coating and I'm completely honest with all of my clients. I tell them straight up I am the most expensive guy around but if you want quality you have to pay for it. I won't even discount seniors. I tell them I'm not Wal-Mart and today isn't Tuesday...

My first month in business I made $17,000 profit and it kept growing from there. Last year, from April through October I spent two days knocking on doors. The rest of the year was constant business coming in from referrals and advertising. We had so much business come in I have no choice but to expand and put more trucks on the road this summer. I'm hiring two more guys to work for me.

So no, I don't believe you have to sell price cuts. If you know how to sell and you really believe in your workmanship then you should have no problems with the lowballers around.

















I got lots of deadbeats around me that work for beer money. I see their work and their price is all over the driveway when you can see what a lousy job they do.

Your always going to have El Cheapass on a street that doesn't care about quality. But there is no reason why you cant replace El Cheapass with El Quality... Who cares if you lost some clients. Go out and get a few more to replace them. Its not that hard...


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

Dissociative;699703 said:


> see, this guy get's it.......do work son!!!....go on and get you some!!!>.....
> 
> this title should be "in a bad economy those willing to do what it takes rule"


thanks.

For me knowing how the economy is going, i put more into making sure i'll be around next year. I just wonder how many others really look at the big picture, and look at where they want to be in a 5 years. I know i do not want to be 60 and still have to be out plowing snow for another 5 years for me to retire. and when i retire I don't want to only get SSI for my living expences...


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## In2toys (Jan 25, 2006)

Ramairfreak98ss;697023 said:


> your right midtownpc... we had 4 residential 1acre+ lawn accounts last year, a guy/company was going under or not responding to calls this spring, so i was looking/hoping to pick up all of his accounts too, like 8 more, all in a row. This was going to be golden.. but nada.
> 
> a neighborhood kid i found out was using his dads 48" zero turn toro mower they used on their own 1 acre property and cutting the whole block, for like $20 a house lol. We charged $54/51/52 and $48 per property in this place in 2007, in 2008, instead of picking up 8, we lost ALL 4, thats $1000 PER MONTH we lost just in residential mowing! Didndt look like much trimming got done ever, or at least not well when it was that i noticed this summer, but i guess none cared at $20 per cut.
> 
> Theyre only paying $80 a month versus my $200+ and thats $5 cheaper just because theyre all close to each other already!


Actually that was ram air freaks post, I just did a lousy job of quoting it. The only part I added was about how many guys started mowing lawns like that when they were a kid. I agree on being the most expensive guy in town. Some people want to pay alot, or they think they are getting an inferior job.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Not bashing anyone. Not all states/towns go by the same rules. I have a legit business (actually three) and all are out of my home and garage. Registered with the town and federal governing agency (FMSCA) / insured / taxed by the state etc. Just no "covenants" or need for a separate address or building.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

i run from my home , whats the problem


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## kootoomootoo (May 11, 2000)

Henry Ford started in his garage.

Its amazing how every lawnboy and plowjockey is the most expensive in town.


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## timmy1 (Apr 9, 2008)

Most contractors are slow right now, and most of them have F250's etc. In the past, they could make more with inside work on new homes. I've noticed they are out trying to make a buck during the storms, can't say that I blame them.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

drivewaydoctor;700330 said:


> So no, I don't believe you have to sell price cuts. If you know how to sell and you really believe in your workmanship then you should have no problems with the lowballers around.
> 
> I got lots of deadbeats around me that work for beer money. I see their work and their price is all over the driveway when you can see what a lousy job they do.
> 
> Your always going to have El Cheapass on a street that doesn't care about quality. But there is no reason why you cant replace El Cheapass with El Quality... Who cares if you lost some clients. Go out and get a few more to replace them. Its not that hard...


El Cheapass may trully NOT have the money to spend. I know when i started plowing i was plowing for myself as a neseccity (SP) i was new in the co-owning my own shop, i had worked for a few other. but never had to take worry about snow removal or landscapping. i could not pay someone to plow when alot of the time i was working to pay bills. with all the cuts people have to make now to stay open and working, i can see why plowing is going to the cheapest person/

as for picking up clients to replace lost ones. i know of one contractor who place 20 bids 2 years ago and got 18 this year he bid the same 20 places he got 2... so he has to find 16 smaller lots to pick up just to get back to where he was last year. he also lost half of his driveway contracts. He had 3 trucks on the road last year, this year he is going to be lucky to keep one busy. The guy was here today trying to get me to take over payments on one his plow trucks, because there is no way he can keep 4 plow trucks and only have one working.



Mick;700504 said:


> Not bashing anyone. Not all states/towns go by the same rules. I have a legit business (actually three) and all are out of my home and garage. Registered with the town and federal governing agency (FMSCA) / insured / taxed by the state etc. Just no "covenants" or need for a separate address or building.





elite1msmith;700510 said:


> i run from my home , whats the problem


I agree some areas you are permitted to run or work from home. Around here you may as long as you have different entrace for busisness and home. both doors must face the street, and the one for the business must be marked with hours of operation.


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## ews101 (Oct 24, 2008)

ok this is what Im gonna say on this one. Most of my contracts are 450.00-500.00 a season ok. we usualy have 25-30 plows a season give or take a few where you may go more than once during a storm if you break it down thats about 20.00 per time. I also have some decent commercial lots that range from 1000.00 to 5000.00 I have 2 trucks a 07 a 08 commercial insurance pay taxes, have 2 employees and I make Excellant money.
All my accounts are very close together in a 6 mile radius.
Still We have guys advertising 185.00 a season 225.00 285.00 so we have a lot of lowballers in the area. 99 percent renewals everyyear. that 1 percent is bc I turn down the pita customers I picked up the prior season.
20 dollars a driveway for a small driveway is very profitable as it should only take you 5 minutes. Im not talking shovel walks. your gas, ins, taxes shouldnt be more than 5 bucks a drive so u do 12 a hr at 20 that 240 a hr- 60 is 180.00..

But if your doingg a driveway here and a driveway 8 miles away than 10 miles away, than of course your just a idiot.......

It takes years but when you get 150 residentials in a 6 mile radius you can make serious money


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

RODHALL;700886 said:


> El Cheapass may trully NOT have the money to spend. I know when i started plowing i was plowing for myself as a neseccity (SP) i was new in the co-owning my own shop, i had worked for a few other. but never had to take worry about snow removal or landscapping. i could not pay someone to plow when alot of the time i was working to pay bills. with all the cuts people have to make now to stay open and working, i can see why plowing is going to the cheapest person/
> 
> as for picking up clients to replace lost ones. i know of one contractor who place 20 bids 2 years ago and got 18 this year he bid the same 20 places he got 2... so he has to find 16 smaller lots to pick up just to get back to where he was last year. he also lost half of his driveway contracts. He had 3 trucks on the road last year, this year he is going to be lucky to keep one busy. The guy was here today trying to get me to take over payments on one his plow trucks, because there is no way he can keep 4 plow trucks and only have one working.


1) Just because El Cheapass doesn't have the money to spend doesn't mean you need to provide him with service. If El Cheapass goes to the gas station and only has $10 for fuel he won't be given $20 worth of fuel. Thats just business.

2) I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. He must be in a really small town or too much competition. I'm turning about 5 residential contracts away every day here. I simply don't have the equipment. Tell your buddy to bring that truck to Canada, maybe we can work something out. lol (Actually my green Dodge Ram I imported from Mass)


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

drivewaydoctor;700931 said:


> 1) Just because El Cheapass doesn't have the money to spend doesn't mean you need to provide him with service. If El Cheapass goes to the gas station and only has $10 for fuel he won't be given $20 worth of fuel. Thats just business.
> 
> 2) I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. He must be in a really small town or too much competition. I'm turning about 5 residential contracts away every day here. I simply don't have the equipment. Tell your buddy to bring that truck to Canada, maybe we can work something out. lol (Actually my green Dodge Ram I imported from Mass)


I know i don't have to provide services for anyone. I/we will do plowing for cost, as long as it helps make the auto repair shop make more money.

I would have bought it but is GM and he owes more then fair market value on it. (my cummins trucks would have not been to happy with me) I am going to go talk to the one realotor and see if he still needs someone to plow 40-60 driveways and small parking lot. if it still open, that will hopefully keep 2 of his trucks busy. i know i have turned down work also, i am staying in 4 mile radius of the one big job i have.

none of the bids he put out was really out of line or high 12 car parking lot $80 2- 6 inchs winning bid $30+10 for salt. if i was bidding them i would have been about same as he was...

it is just one of them things you can never tell......


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

Wow this thread is out of line or at least heading that way.


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

mullis56;701133 said:


> Wow this thread is out of line or at least heading that way.


rodhall has a way of doing that to a thread.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

LHK2;700254 said:


> I love it when some chimes in and rants and raves and say they have there insurance and run there business out of there garage, it keeps there overhead low.. Great, have you checked your city codes? Guess not, most cities won't allow you to run out of your garage, so don't go around bashing the guys with shops.


It's called zoning, and in order to get a DBA or Liscence.....depending on your business, they automatically check your address against zoning codes. Were not talking junk yards, auto sales, or industrial.........We provide a service, not a commodity. The service isn't even being provided at that location.....it doesn't matter. I run a repossession business out of my Condo......MY C O N D O! Yup, got license's, insurance, and Tax numbers coming out of my A**, but no permits......Cause ya don't need one genius!


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

cjasonbr;670583 said:


> I think i've received close to 8 calls from people apologetically canceling me. They say they found a better rate and usually it blows mine away. I lost a commercial lot that someone bid $40 on. I'm losing my $35 driveways, which is our minimum, to people who bid $20.
> 
> I call the people back and tell them that the only reason that person can beat my rates that badly is because they probably don't have commercial insurance and don't pay taxes. I could charge $20 a driveway too if I didn't have any overhead i tell them. They're apologetic and pretty much tell me that they don't care.
> 
> ...


I took it we were to talk about job losses to lowballers...
As well as what we are doing to try and make up for the losses???



mullis56;701133 said:


> Wow this thread is out of line or at least heading that way.





Scott's;701161 said:


> rodhall has a way of doing that to a thread.


If you take a look at the posts I have made so far just on this page

I thanked someone when they paid me a complement.

I said where a buddy is in jeopardy of loosing his business because of job losses

And another post about how I was trying to help him out…

And then this post…
Witch I feel I need to defend myself…

Scott if you have problem with me. Take it up in a PM/IM with me or one of the MODS…


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

Did anyone answer my question? why can't you get some insurance and do some proper contracts? instead of a per plow? Per plow no one is obligated to hire you...to me anyone that is doing that is a not in business to make a steady income.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I've been properly insured (Comm Vehicle and GL) since day 1. I have never had contracts. All have been seasonal or per push. I do depend on income for expenses & income (not just "beer money"). I am registered as in business plowing and pay taxes. Again, it all depends on circumstances. In my area, there are only two that could be called commercial accounts and no one has contracts.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

martyman;701945 said:


> Did anyone answer my question? why can't you get some insurance and do some proper contracts? instead of a per plow? Per plow no one is obligated to hire you...to me anyone that is doing that is a not in business to make a steady income.


I was curious to that point as well.....If you have a contract, why are these guys dropping you with no recourse on your end.

_*Anyone that needs help with a contract, drop me an email, I will show you mine and update the formating to your info to help you out.*_

This so reminds me of the local tow companies out here. A new one pops up every year, low balls tow to $25 a pop local. Sure they make a dent in everyones clients, but they all flop 6 months later. It's funny....the phone book comes out in July, by Christmas the new guys numbers are all disconnected.

AAA is even better, they only pay a contractor between $25 - $30 for service and local tow, however you get a boost in business. It doesn't account for the extra wear and tear to your truck.....Talk about cutting your throat! 100,000 miles on your brand new truck in the first year. Fing warranty is gone, an all the maintenance is on your head. Try replacing a Allison, or Eaton transmission on a 2 year old International......redicioulus! Crame that much wear & tear into that short of time, that's exactly whats going to happen if not worse.

It's the same thing plowing....ok, sure....go get 15 drives at $20 - $25 a pop...thats more wear on your rig, there is no ifs or buts about it. quantity does not equal profits at low rates, just trouble. Or at best breaking even. If you can line um up in the same hood, absolutley....but we live in the real world here.

I have yet to do this, but a wise member here said when he lands an account in a new neighborhood he goes door to door leaving a business card with a low ball figure on the back.........makes sense. This I would do. If I get Joe's neighbor at 20% or even 30% less then my real cost, I am happy........but to drive across town for that low ball figure without having a Joe's neighbor next door, No way in h*ll.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Mick;702018 said:


> I've been properly insured (Comm Vehicle and GL) since day 1. I have never had contracts. All have been seasonal or per push. I do depend on income for expenses & income (not just "beer money"). I am registered as in business plowing and pay taxes. Again, it all depends on circumstances. In my area, there are only two that could be called commercial accounts and no one has contracts.


You can have a contract and still have per push.........Christ 75% of mine are per push and the rest seasonal. I have a contract on each and every one. I will not take a job without one. Why take the risk.

Understandably there are a few of us out there in the back sticks of America where it's like Cheers.."everyone knowns your name" kind of thing, but thats few and far between. Besides...If you go to the trouble of doing things right on the Insurance and tax fore front, why stop there? CYA where ever you can.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

martyman;701945 said:


> Did anyone answer my question? why can't you get some insurance and do some proper contracts? instead of a per plow? Per plow no one is obligated to hire you...to me anyone that is doing that is a not in business to make a steady income.


I'll answer you..
I have insurance... 2.5 mil property damage covrage. 
I not sure what you call a proper contracts? but i have a 40 home HOA with 1 1/2 miles of privite road and 40 driveways. it is billed per plow.

The area your in decides if you plowing per plow or seasonal... around here it rare to hear of a seasonal contract. one year we may get 20 inches total @2-3 inces at time. next we may get 60 inces with a 24 inch storm 2 or 3 12 inch storms and few 2-3 inch events... most arond here who sign contracts want them per plow we have had a few years running of smaller snows totals. so more lowballers pop up to make a quick buck, but when we have a higher snowfall year they all end up broke down, or not plowing.


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

I still think even the Per plow guys could have some sort of written agreement between a customer for a minimum even in places you don't get lots of snow.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

What is this kick of per push equals no contract....Am I missing something here? 

RODHALL your absolutely right, I only had four seasonals three years back, now %25 of my customers today are seasonal. I automatically put it on every bid as an option to consider. I think it's simply due to the increase in snowfall over the past years. I'm sure it will decline once we get a few lighter years again, but for now.........


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

martyman;702034 said:


> I still think even the Per plow guys could have some sort of written agreement between a customer for a minimum even in places you don't get lots of snow.


Call me slow, but are you guys referring to "per plow" as on call?? Like, if they want to use you, they will call you?


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

RepoMan207;702040 said:


> Call me slow, but are you guys referring to "per plow" as on call?? Like, if they want to use you, they will call you?


i am not.

Per Plow = contract where you plow with a trigger (2inches) and you bill for everytime you plow.... over 6 inches you get $X more and so on..


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

RODHALL;702051 said:


> i am not.
> 
> Per Plow = contract where you plow with a trigger (2inches) and you bill for everytime you plow.... over 6 inches you get $X more and so on..


Exactly..other then your best friend....why wouldn't someone contract a per push customer?


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

Well, I'm confused about the PER PLOW...and what a Lowballer has to do with anyone that has "loyal" customers that do not have a contract. I don't think my customers would trust me to bill them for how many times I came, even when I have a contract they always say that I only came a few times when it has been many more.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

martyman;702074 said:


> Well, I'm confused about the PER PLOW...and what a Lowballer has to do with anyone that has "loyal" customers that do not have a contract. I don't think my customers would trust me to bill them for how many times I came, even when I have a contract they always say that I only came a few times when it has been many more.


Thats were your going wrong....It's based on the accumulations, not the number of trips.

Example:

2" - 6" $40

6" - 8" $45

8" - 10" $50

And so on......

You tell them you will sweep in and clear enough so they may go about there daily life, and depending on the accumulation, you'll come back and do it over (I make 3 trips on a 8" storm, it also depends on the time of the storm as well, are they going to or from work in the middle of it).....Once the storm is over with, you'll come back and do a thorough clean up.


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

That system would not work in the big city...So it works in a small town and its mainly people that trust you so I think that the guys that are being hit with lowballers need to find a solution where they would have something in writing.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

martyman;702106 said:


> That system would not work in the big city...So it works in a small town and its mainly people that trust you so I think that the guys that are being hit with lowballers need to find a solution where they would have something in writing.


Elaborate....what wouldn't work?


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

I think I did....it would be based on trust and that would not work in my city. The town of Markham, Ontario, is located north of Toronto, and has an estimated 2005 population of roughly 257,000...its even more now.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

martyman;702168 said:


> I think I did....it would be based on trust and that would not work in my city. The town of Markham, Ontario, is located north of Toronto, and has an estimated 2005 population of roughly 257,000...its even more now.


Trust what? The fact of snow accumulations, or the number of trips....just not sure which version your putting this too. I am thinking it's obvious, but it may not be to later readers.


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

Maybe someone else might have an answer...I'm not saying your system does not work. I'm still confused about if Per plow is a contract and why "lowballers" affect anyone that has some form of agreement.


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

martyman;702224 said:


> Maybe someone else might have an answer...I'm not saying your system does not work. I'm still confused about if Per plow is a contract and why "lowballers" affect anyone that has some form of agreement.


Marty I can see where you are coming from. I service Markham too. None of my clients would agree to a contract that was based on a per plow of various accumulations. I think the problem is here Marty is everyone is simply use to paying a flat rate per season or per month. In the states it seems the general public are simply use to per push. I'll bet if we went down there and tried to see a $450 seasonal contract we're probably have a hard time getting business. Simply two different types of customers.


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## TLC Snow Div. (Oct 28, 2007)

This winter there are definitly lowballers coming outta the wood work. some totally new to the plowing biz and others who've been in it before and lookn for a quick source of winter income.

Out of all the commercial accounts i bid on for this winter i only landed one. I think to my advantage i got it because they use me for the landscaping and property maintenance so its easier for them in some ways to hire the same co. year round.

One of the parking lots i bid, the winning bid was $100 less than my min. price per storm and there price was per storm not based on amount of snow (inches).

The sanding cost was $25 less then mine.

Thats just 1 example.

Hopefully nobody tries to steal any of my residential clients because none of them a priced below value. many of them pay very well. Cheapest one is $25. Then it goes up to $100 for most expensive residential driveway. Clients like our work but when push comes to shove on money loyalty is easily passed up.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

You can set whatever term you want, a contract is irrelevant. 

Per Push.....or per plow is something that just sets the tone for how you will be billing them or charging them. All the contract does is keeps them, and I suppose you (the contractor) as well from breaking any terms of the agreement. 

From the way I understand your take on the per push thing, you've mis construed what was intended by the meaning. Not thats bad, but you see first hand what a headache that route will get you. 

Per Push is the term, it means that you set the bracket, 2" - 6" , 6" - 8", 8" - 10" and so on, or however you wish to break it up, then set a price for each one. 

It doesn't matter how many times you go back to clear them becuase your chargeing for total storm accumulation. 

Do this, How many trips are you realistically going to make to service a 6" storm......Of coarse it depends on the customer and the time of the event, so say worst case, 3 times = 2 sweeps, and a clean up at the end. Alright, whats the charge per trip? Multiply that by 3 and you get your bid. Keep into account your first 2 trips are not anything near perfect. It's just to get them access in or out, so you may not want to charge full price for those first two trips. Establish your own brackets 2"-6" 6"-8" and so on.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

> In the states it seems the general public are simply use to per push. I'll bet if we went down there and tried to see a $450 seasonal contract we're probably have a hard time getting business. Simply two different types of customers.


Not sure about that....I think it would depend on where you go as you say. I do both seasonal as well as per push. It's nothing but a gamble for either the customer, or the contractor. Chances are one of you is going to make out. $450 is an average around me for a small sized drive. Of coarse there is that conversion thing to account for.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

Some of it my be the amount of snow you folks get. When was last time you had 24 inch (60 mm) total snow fall for the year? Last 4 years I have been under 24 inches at the end of the year.

Martyman and or Drivewaydoctor 
How many times in one season do you plow one drive way or small parking lot? And how much snow total for the season?


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

RODHALL;702314 said:


> Some of it my be the amount of snow you folks get. When was last time you had 24 inch (60 mm) total snow fall for the year? Last 4 years I have been under 24 inches at the end of the year.
> 
> Martyman and or Drivewaydoctor
> How many times in one season do you plow one drive way or small parking lot? And how much snow total for the season?


It really depends. With a 1" trigger last year we were out a lot... And I mean alot... 30 times maybe? The 4-5 years prior to that we might plow 6 or 7 times the whole season.

This year we have been out I think 6 times so far.

Marty may be different. A lot of guys run here on a 3cm trigger (1inch'ish) but I'm 6cm (2 inch'ish) this year.

3cm was simply too little snow for me. It was pointless. The plow hardly pulled anything off the driveways so I changed to 6cm which seems to work better. I do still have some customers that expect it done with as little as 1cm but I don't do them unless there is 6cm.


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

RODHALL;702314 said:


> Some of it my be the amount of snow you folks get. When was last time you had 24 inch (60 mm) total snow fall for the year? Last 4 years I have been under 24 inches at the end of the year.


Forgot to answer this question sorry. Last year we were over 200cm for the winter. (200 cm = 78.7 in)


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

1" trigger......wow. Thats just nuts in my mind. Commercial I could see, but not resi's. We do 2" and 4". It's one of the first questions asked prior to bidding a job. I like to keep them at 4" though. 

We are at a 17 event average for the last 3 years with 76" average per. Last year was 110", so I think that accounts for the push towards seasonal this year. I'm not complaining by any means.

So far we are at 30" for this season already.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

now i am think about moving up north.

$450 season 7 plows = $65 each time you plow
$450 season 25 plows = $18 each time you plow

i understand why your praying for no snow...

but knowing my luck i move up there and have 2 or 3 years of 25 plow seasons.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Move to Madawaska, Maine, there total last year was 146" granted there poulation is around 5k, so there isn't much to do but plow, and go sleding.


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

RepoMan207;702374 said:


> 1" trigger......wow. Thats just nuts in my mind. Commercial I could see, but not resi's. We do 2" and 4". It's one of the first questions asked prior to bidding a job. I like to keep them at 4" though.
> 
> We are at a 17 event average for the last 3 years with 76" average per. Last year was 110", so I think that accounts for the push towards seasonal this year. I'm not complaining by any means.
> 
> So far we are at 30" for this season already.


Yeah one of the biggest companies here called "The Gardener" is rapping the market at only 1 inch trigger. I tried to stay competitive by meeting their trigger but no way. Grant it, these guys are the biggest crooks in the business. They pay company drivers $1000 per month to plow unlimited times at 1" trigger. The drivers are making next to nothing per hour by the time all is said and done. That also includes getting out of the truck and shoveling walkways, steps and sidewalks... For a grand...


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Plow? Shovel? hahahaha, all they have to do is drive fast, and sweep the paths. I filled in part time for a company that does the local Target, talk about anal, these guys couldn't have a half inch on the ground at anytime.


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

> Scott if you have problem with me. Take it up in a PM/IM with me or one of the MODS


What will that do? I just didn't like what you posted about taking money from "real contractors" all that has been removed by the mods already. Keep in mind some people do this for a living and have done it for a long time and when people like you throw a plow on their old wrecker and run around low balling and then brag about it, YES I have a problem with that. YEE HAA


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## RamPainting LLC (Nov 9, 2008)

grandview;670737 said:


> I think if gas prices had gone up to 5.00 a gallon it would of weeded out a lot of guys this yr and a few from starting next yr. It may of brought the prices up for us that survived.


Now doubt!

A few years ago, i held a State issued contractors licence form the state of Florida. I'm sure there are not to many guy's from the south on a plow site  Anyway, the state requires all trades to be licenced! they also need to display their state licence #'s on their trucks! The state also employs a task force to in each county to hunt down unlicensed contractors which are given a fine for the first offence. If they where to get caught a second time, you serve a little time in the slammer :waving:

Living in a state like Colorado where you pay a few bucks to the secretary of state to get registered is a Fing joke!!! It took me almost a year in FL of taking tests, going to seminars and paying big $$ to be granted a business licence being approved by a board of commissioners wesport that my friends weeds out the dead beets :salute:


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Florida has some pretty cool rules......Mow your lawn or we will, then you can pay us three times the amount. Don't want to pay.....no problem, move out we now own your house.....Junk cars, not unless you have a salvage yard, try getting one of those, can you say RED TAPE.

But C'Mon.......a year, WTF is that. Classes and seminars, when exactly does one come up with time for that when running a business. Who's paying for all of that.....Welfare? Seriously. Are you able to operate without the license while working towards it? I used to work the boat shows around the country with Florida being 60% of our business base. We had a shop in Clearwater......we never had to get a license, but then again the shop was never opened to the public other then the shows.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

Scott's;702537 said:


> What will that do? I just didn't like what you posted about taking money from "real contractors" all that has been removed by the mods already. Keep in mind some people do this for a living and have done it for a long time and when people like you throw a plow on their old wrecker and run around low balling and then brag about it, YES I have a problem with that. YEE HAA


I have been told I am not a "real contractor" because I do NOT do lawncare… 
I have been plowing snow for 7 years in my trucks, paying my insurance and taking care of my own trucks for that whole time… the last 3 years I do NOT need the money I get from plowing snow to make truck payments, and keep my business a float. My trucks are paid for, and my business can stand on it's own, without the plowing income. I'll plow snow at cost if brings more work into the repair shop, if that makes me a low baller so be it… just like this. I have 4 cars of the insurance agents here making me $10 per car per day. so I don't care if I am only breaking even on plowing his agency lot.

You go plow to make money and promote your lawn care. I do the same thing I go plow to make money and promote my auto repair shop. At times you have to take a job and break even to promote your business.

A business brings me there truck to fix, I stay late and get the job done as quickly as I can because I know they need that truck to make money.

I see you have a few second-generation dodges. I am running first-generation dodge with king-fronts, and Cummins motors, so while they may be "OLD" they still run and plow snow very well, they do not break down. Again I am promoting my auto repair shop, look at these old dodge truck and how well they still run. I am not taking the IH dt477 rollback out in the snow, it is just too light in the rear end.


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

> Marty may be different. A lot of guys run here on a 3cm trigger (1inch'ish) but I'm 6cm (2 inch'ish) this year.


I have a 2 inch trigger if it continues to snow or will not plow anything under 2 1/2" if it stops. I think I've plowed 6 or 7 times, a few of those were double that I needed to go around again and do the ends of the driveways.


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## KCB (Jan 22, 2006)

Hey marty, what are prices like in Markham Richmond Hill area this year? I have been out of this area for awhile, I thought things were really starting to hit rock bottom a couple years ago so I moved away... Id like to know some real #s so PM me if you have the time.:salute:


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

> Hey marty, what are prices like in Markham Richmond Hill area this year? I have been out of this area for awhile, I thought things were really starting to hit rock bottom a couple years ago so I moved away... Id like to know some real #s so PM me if you have the time.


The season is well into it so next year might be different...It all depends on the driveway/location and what people expect from your service.. I don't serve Richmond Hill.


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

KCB;702714 said:


> Hey marty, what are prices like in Markham Richmond Hill area this year? I have been out of this area for awhile, I thought things were really starting to hit rock bottom a couple years ago so I moved away... Id like to know some real #s so PM me if you have the time.:salute:


I'll answer that question. In Markham I am getting anywhere from $350 to $450 per season based on location or property, walkways etc. I also service downtown Toronto with another truck and I get on average $550 per season down there. My minimum charge regardless of where the place is located has to workout to $100 per month otherwise I let them call someone else.


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## KCB (Jan 22, 2006)

That sounds right (350 + ) How do you define "down town"? South of Bloor ? I cant imaging plowing drives down there, its a constant zoo... Maybe in Rosedale, or some other affluent neighborhood. payup


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

> My trucks are paid for, and my business can stand on it's own, without the plowing income. I'll plow snow at cost if brings more work into the repair shop, if that makes me a low baller so be it


Like I said before, do what you need to do but dont come on here and brag you are a low baller and your 16 year old daughter takes money out of the pocket of "real contractors". You said you have 2.5 mil prop damage ins that seems like a lot to pay, low ballers sometimes say they have ins and then throw out a big # like that so others think they really have it when infact the have no plowing ins. BTW I was in the recovery buiss for 10 years.


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## dingybigfoot (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm in markham getting $350 to $400.


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

KCB;702772 said:


> That sounds right (350 + ) How do you define "down town"? South of Bloor ? I cant imaging plowing drives down there, its a constant zoo... Maybe in Rosedale, or some other affluent neighborhood. payup


Its a tough place to work, no question. We plow right downtown. Beaches etc. The properties are done with a snow blower but I have a game plan to change that next year. This summer will be a big turning point for me. I plan on doubling my equipment and crew size. I must have turned away well over 100 clients this year. I have the work, just don't have the equipment/staff to handle it. Time to invest some money...


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## KCB (Jan 22, 2006)

Congrats man. Im on the flip side of that scenario...:realmad:


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

> Its a tough place to work, no question. We plow right downtown. Beaches etc. The properties are done with a snow blower but I have a game plan to change that next year. This summer will be a big turning point for me. I plan on doubling my equipment and crew size. I must have turned away well over 100 clients this year. I have the work, just don't have the equipment/staff to handle it. Time to invest some money..


With Oshawa and the auto sector possibly doing a nose dive I would imagine many guys from that area will be slowly creeping in and taking your work...I'm staying small.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

martyman;703004 said:


> With Oshawa and the auto sector possibly doing a nose dive I would imagine many guys from that area will be slowly creeping in and taking your work...I'm staying small.


Not sure about that whole region, but that statement rings true here in all respects. I would love to expand on my repossession side right now, but it's just too risky. As far as plowing, I'll take what I can get and sub out the stuff over my head. I am happy with a marginal profit if it means keeping my customer base up for when I do jump, but what a PITA keeping up with it all.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

Scott's;702797 said:


> Like I said before, do what you need to do but dont come on here and brag you are a low baller and your 16 year old daughter takes money out of the pocket of "real contractors". You said you have 2.5 mil prop damage ins that seems like a lot to pay, low ballers sometimes say they have ins and then throw out a big # like that so others think they really have it when infact the have no plowing ins. BTW I was in the recovery buiss for 10 years.


You said i was bragging...Not me. I am proud that i have what i feel is enough work for 2 trucks, and i am proud of the fact that i put a second truck on the road this year with the eccommey the way it is.
what is worng with my daughter working? i never said my daughter took money out of the pocket of rear contractors i said "SHE HAS MORE BALLS" but that was in another thread.
2 mil prop damage is the minamun required by the state to get service/repair tags, and that 2.5 mil is split between the 3 tags we have. and yes i have to insure the tag not the truck, i can put that tag to what ever car truck trailer cycle i want under 26,500 and it is insured...


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

RODHALL;703083 said:


> You said i was bragging...Not me. I am proud that i have what i feel is enough work for 2 trucks, and i am proud of the fact that i put a second truck on the road this year with the eccommey the way it is.
> what is worng with my daughter working? i never said my daughter took money out of the pocket of rear contractors i said "SHE HAS MORE BALLS" but that was in another thread.
> 2 mil prop damage is the minamun required by the state to get service/repair tags, and that 2.5 mil is split between the 3 tags we have. and yes i have to insure the tag not the truck, i can put that tag to what ever car truck trailer cycle i want under 26,500 and it is insured...


Having Garage keepers, amongst other insurances out there is far more coverage then a general Plowing policy can offer.


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

> i never said my daughter took money out of the pocket of rear contractors


Yes you did bub, Im sure the mods still have that post by you tucked away, they can see it but we cant. You are something man you really are, Your words was "My 16 year old daughter makes $3500.00 a snow fall and thats money out of real contractors pockets". So you didnt say this??????????



> You said i was bragging...Not me. I am proud that i have what i feel is enough work for 2 trucks, and i am proud of the fact that i put a second truck on the road this year with the eccommey the way it is.


Hell ya plow for almost nothing and you should put a few more trucks on the road. You are proud that you can cut a "real contractors" price and post all over the net bragging about it. I see guys like you all the time but only for 1 or 2 winters . Its hard to mount a salter on the back of a wrecker isnt it?

Putting up a fair price is 1 thing but knowing you are lowballing to break even just to adv for another buiss is another. In my book these kinda lowballers are scumbags.and you my friend is just that.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

I use ta could piss over a dump truck with the bed lifted.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

Scott's;703155 said:


> Hell ya plow for almost nothing and you should put a few more trucks on the road. You are proud that you can cut a "real contractors" price and post all over the net bragging about it. I see guys like you all the time but only for 1 or 2 winters . Its hard to mount a salter on the back of a wrecker isnt it?
> 
> Putting up a fair price is 1 thing but knowing you are lowballing to break even just to adv for another buiss is another. In my book these kinda lowballers are scumbags.and you my friend is just that.


cheapest driveway i get paid for is $30 and i have 2 at that price. the rest are $35 or $40 are they not fair prices for 8 x30 or 8 x40 driveway? i have 6 driveways i do for FREE and one small parking lot. my mothers, my mother inlaws, and 4 elderly homes that get meals on wheels. the small parking lot is A Senior center, that is run off donations.



Scott's;703155 said:


> Its hard to mount a salter on the back of a wrecker isnt it?


do either of these trucks look like wreckers?
*
edit - can you please re-size your images so the page does not stretch so far.* thanks, Mike


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Nope...Just good ole'e American money makers. payup


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## scooled101 (Nov 19, 2008)

RODHALL;703276 said:


> cheapest driveway i get paid for is $30 and i have 2 at that price. the rest are $35 or $40 are they not fair prices for 8 x30 or 8 x40 driveway? i have 6 driveways i do for FREE and one small parking lot. my mothers, my mother inlaws, and 4 elderly homes that get meals on wheels. the small parking lot is A Senior center, that is run off donations.
> 
> do either of these trucks look like wreckers?


beautiful trucks there is nothing like an old dodge diesel :salute::salute:

Now if only i can find one in that kinda shape


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## RamPainting LLC (Nov 9, 2008)

RepoMan207;702615 said:


> Florida has some pretty cool rules......Mow your lawn or we will, then you can pay us three times the amount. Don't want to pay.....no problem, move out we now own your house.....Junk cars, not unless you have a salvage yard, try getting one of those, can you say RED TAPE.
> 
> But C'Mon.......a year, WTF is that. Classes and seminars, when exactly does one come up with time for that when running a business. Who's paying for all of that.....Welfare? Seriously. Are you able to operate without the license while working towards it? I used to work the boat shows around the country with Florida being 60% of our business base. We had a shop in Clearwater......we never had to get a license, but then again the shop was never opened to the public other then the shows.


These licences are geared more tord construction trades, It really does take 10+ months to get your licence approved by the state and the county you live in. I had a friend with a GC licence in Boca, so I used his till mine was approved. If you get caught with out one, if your in the processes of applying for one, they make you wait another 6 months as a penalty + a fine 

It's a PITA but once you have it, it's fun to call and report guy's working with out it. You can start weeding out the A holes that not legit.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

It's a good idea when it comes to the construction trades. Atleast in towing we have Wreck Master. It too is a good bragging right, kinda weeds out the back yard hill billies out there ya know.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

RepoMan207;703533 said:


> It's a good idea when it comes to the construction trades. Atleast in towing we have Wreck Master. It too is a good bragging right, kinda weeds out the back yard hill billies out there ya know.


Of a sort, I suppose. Although I am WreckMaster certified (or was since it's expired) and have never towed a vehicle or done a recovery. I haven't even driven a wrecker or operated the controls. Operator ID 050795. All it took was money for the class.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Then your not even a 2/3 then.....If you can't demonstrate your skills, you don't move up. Where and why would you bother with the coarse then? I started taking the Safety seminars annually with the Portland fleet, then the Boston Show, and Baltimore Show a half dozen times. I finally went to the week long about 6 years ago at the expense of my employer. I got out of towing full time just after that....Went to get the Class A and needed experience to move to the big hook. Never went back to public towing.


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

RODHALL purplebou


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Who screwed the page up??? Is it only me, or is everyones displaying like the length of Tennessee?


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

RepoMan207;703969 said:


> Who screwed the page up??? Is it only me, or is everyones displaying like the length of Tennessee?


it is the lowballing king andhis pics


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

I gatta say there is an alwful amount of crap on the ground, an it aint white stuff.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Yes, I was certified as a 2/3. Reason I took the class was that when I retired at 54, I wanted to learn new things and have done many things I'd never done before. I wanted to buy a wrecker, so needed to learn how to operate one . By going to WreckMaster training, hopefully I'd learn the correct way, rather than by the "seat of my pants" - like most others. Went to NJ and cost over $1000, including the motel where the training was held. Training consisted mainly of discussing the strength of materials (cables etc and proper hookup) and one day of onsite demonstration, but no practical hands-on. At the end, I was certified but still couldn't operate the boom. Back home, I looked for a company to teach me but didn't have any luck, so I went to O'Connor's and spec'd out a new 6500 rollback. I'd teach myself. I'd already done the financial planning. The cost of insurance is what finally "put the brakes" on my wrecker plans. 

I bought a new tractor, instead. I'd never owned one of those, either.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

LOL.....Mick I like your style. That's pretty cool. I did some over the road driving after towing, I worked for a few guys but ended up with RC Moore, great company. When my kids are gone completly, the wife and I are going to hit the road. God luck out there.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Good luck to you too, Ryan. I don't know if you know it, but I'm also a licensed/insured freight broker. Another one of those things that I did after I retired. Started out to help my son who was OTR at the time. Not real active now, didn't like the BS involved.


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## iflyhelis (Dec 9, 2007)

ColliganLands;670608 said:


> i had problems signing contracts for my first year my minimum is also 35 dollars and people were telling me its too high. but my insurance is close to 2 grand and other expenses etc. so i wound up with 4 driveways and then signed on with a town.
> times are tough i guess but i still cant justify 20 bucks a drive no *******=Waying way


I really pity you all! I did it back in 1978 for $7.00 a drive on residential. I now will not do that, unless I am payed at least $35.00 for the service!


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

Please excuse my ignorance but I'd like to clarify something here. If I understand you all correctly in order to plow snow in the States you need a "Contractors Permit or License" ?

When I imported my truck (Green dodge) from Mass, USA it had a contractor sticker on the window. Is this a law in order to act as a contractor for things like landscaping, plowing, building sheds etc?

Here, where I am in Ontario, anyone can be a general contractor. There is no licensing or permits required. If I want to cut grass, no problem, move into interlocking stones, piece of cake, asphalt paving, same thing, no license...


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

drivewaydoctor;704509 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but I'd like to clarify something here. If I understand you all correctly in order to plow snow in the States you need a "Contractors Permit or License" ?


Not in Ohio.


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## duramaxblade (Feb 12, 2008)

cjasonbr;670583 said:


> I think i've received close to 8 calls from people apologetically canceling me. They say they found a better rate and usually it blows mine away. I lost a commercial lot that someone bid $40 on. I'm losing my $35 driveways, which is our minimum, to people who bid $20.
> 
> I call the people back and tell them that the only reason that person can beat my rates that badly is because they probably don't have commercial insurance and don't pay taxes. I could charge $20 a driveway too if I didn't have any overhead i tell them. They're apologetic and pretty much tell me that they don't care.
> 
> ...


Although I do agree that all of us who are losing driveways to the cheaper guys hate them, we all know that we can't really do anything about it. I had an issue with that when I first started. All I do is residential, and although I have only been plowing for 5 years or so, I quickly realized that most home owners like to really know their plow guy. So I send each one their bill via email, try and remember at least a few things about each customer to ask them and always try and do a better job then the next guy would do.

Now, I know that we all do are best and it still hasn't stopped some customers from leaving. Has anyone tried giving them an incentive? Or having your customers find the driveways for you? I offered a really good incentive to my loyal customers this year. For every new customer that they got me that used me for the year I would give them a free plow. Believe it or not it worked. I still lost a couple from last year, but I got a lot of new ones.

I went from 25 resi's last year (I just started for my self in 2007) to 40 this year with no advertising. I think that's pretty good. Oh, and the cheapest driveway that I have is 30 for under 8" and they go all the way up to 75 for under 8". So I am not low balling either.

But hey, what works for one might not work for another. Just my 2 cents...


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## Eronningen (Dec 20, 2008)

Let them low ball. It can happen. It ocasionally happens to me but more times than not, that customer that chose the low ball, will re-hire me the next year due to problems. Some never do but thats ok too. I try to get top dollar and know it can be done cheaper and reasonably well so I expect to lose some here and there. Those of us who charge more do less work for the same money.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

drivewaydoctor;704509 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but I'd like to clarify something here. If I understand you all correctly in order to plow snow in the States you need a "Contractors Permit or License" ?


for me the plowing is covered under the service part of the service and repair. i am license by the state.
lawn-snow i do not think you have to have a license.
Gen building contractors are required to get MHIC license.
any truck that is used as part of a business should have DOT# (if they are drivin by the listed owner then they do not have to display the DOT #, but have all stuff required for DOT)

This is different state to state.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

duramaxblade;704538 said:


> Has anyone tried giving them an incentive? Or having your customers find the driveways for you? I offered a really good incentive to my loyal customers this year. For every new customer that they got me that used me for the year I would give them a free plow. Believe it or not it worked. I still lost a couple from last year, but I got a lot of new ones.
> 
> I went from 25 resi's last year (I just started for my self in 2007) to 40 this year with no advertising. I think that's pretty good. Oh, and the cheapest driveway that I have is 30 for under 8" and they go all the way up to 75 for under 8". So I am not low balling either.
> 
> But hey, what works for one might not work for another. Just my 2 cents...


I am just wondering how many free plows do have to give away?

I have never tried that, but i do give discounts to business that can help make my auto repair shop grow... I have been called nice name because of it...


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

drivewaydoctor;704509 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but I'd like to clarify something here. If I understand you all correctly in order to plow snow in the States you need a "Contractors Permit or License" ?
> 
> When I imported my truck (Green dodge) from Mass, USA it had a contractor sticker on the window. Is this a law in order to act as a contractor for things like landscaping, plowing, building sheds etc?
> 
> Here, where I am in Ontario, anyone can be a general contractor. There is no licensing or permits required. If I want to cut grass, no problem, move into interlocking stones, piece of cake, asphalt paving, same thing, no license...


That sticker is because the prior owner plowed the highway, or for a town.


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## LockwoodLawn (Oct 28, 2008)

*Cut Throats*

ussmileyflagI am a small business also with INS, and I had some mowing customers that promised if I got a plow they would sign up with me, as soon as I put the plow on and showed contracts, all of a sudden they couldn't afford to pay for it cause money is tight!! Like it wasn't for me shelling out $4500 for a new plow and upgrade my INS. I also bid several commercial props that I lost due to lowballers until it started snowing, and I saw the manager out SHOVELING the Drive thru LMFAO I rolled in and smilled and said "guess my price wasn't that bad afterall huh" 2 days later I got a contract. luckily I got enough to keep me busy pushin 55 per night.


> Looks like money is falling from the sky!!!!


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## RamPainting LLC (Nov 9, 2008)

drivewaydoctor;704509 said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but I'd like to clarify something here. If I understand you all correctly in order to plow snow in the States you need a "Contractors Permit or License" ?
> 
> When I imported my truck (Green dodge) from Mass, USA it had a contractor sticker on the window. Is this a law in order to act as a contractor for things like landscaping, plowing, building sheds etc?
> 
> Here, where I am in Ontario, anyone can be a general contractor. There is no licensing or permits required. If I want to cut grass, no problem, move into interlocking stones, piece of cake, asphalt paving, same thing, no license...


I was trying to explain how working in states that require contractors to be licenced, really helps weed out the bad guys. My current painting job i'm working this month, is a high end loft apartment complex. The carpet contractor (unlicensed, low baller) already got fired for getting into a fight with the excavator guy, and coming to the job drunk the next day!  Thank god is was not the painters again, lol.


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## huss691981 (Dec 20, 2007)

We have taken a HUGE hit this season. Last year, we had 5 big lots that took about 2 hrs for 2 trucks to do @ $75 p/hour. This year, a bidding was started and we enged up loosing even @ $35 p/hour. The guy that got them is doing them for....Hold on to your hats and take a seat..... $15 per hour!!!!!!!!!!! I don't even know how he pays for gas at that rate. We figure that just those 5 lots will cost us about 7 grand this season. Not to mention all the driveways that are not being done this year. We have 6 trucks and only 11 accounts total. These lowballers are killing me. We have spent more on equipment repairs than we have made this year. Mike


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

huss691981;705887 said:


> We have taken a HUGE hit this season. Last year, we had 5 big lots that took about 2 hrs for 2 trucks to do @ $75 p/hour. This year, a bidding was started and we enged up loosing even @ $35 p/hour. The guy that got them is doing them for....Hold on to your hats and take a seat..... $15 per hour!!!!!!!!!!! I don't even know how he pays for gas at that rate. We figure that just those 5 lots will cost us about 7 grand this season. Not to mention all the driveways that are not being done this year. We have 6 trucks and only 11 accounts total. These lowballers are killing me. We have spent more on equipment repairs than we have made this year. Mike


I understand what you are saying, maybe the guy that under cut you has a repair shop and is only plowing to promote his other buiss . so he can afford to take money from real contractors. It makes me sick sometimes.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

I think durmaxblade's last post (post #123) can pretty much sum it up 

and I also think this thread can be put to rest now


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