# This is our competition :)



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

We were outbid on local banks... there were about 18 of them total in our county so not a tiny bank but not TurD or Wells Fargo or anything...

Our bid was on the low end, knowing we could handle most of them on route to a lot of other snow sites... they even re-bid the work in the summer..and yet this is the company that outbid us and was awarded the 2yr contract :/ They DO have a 2000+ model f450 9' mason dump truck too i saw passing one, but then they had their "personal jeep" out with a 7' boss sport poly plow.. It was pretty cute until i saw their logo on the side of it and it pulled into the bank 100' after we took this photo :/ Gonna have to put some 8' fiberglass plows on our mustangs and pontiacs soon !


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## Boomer123 (Dec 18, 2011)

So did they just under price the hell out it to get the contract.


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

Yeah, it sounds more like you're bitter that they got the contract. Do you know for fact that the bid they put in was considerably less then what yours was? It looks like the Jeep would do well if it's a bank that has ATM/drive up tellers. They can be narrow so a Jeep with a 7ft plow would probably do pretty good in a smaller tight area. I'm not so sure that skid loader with the push box is going to make it through the drive through though. 

One other thing, what makes you so sure that the only thing they are using is the two vehicles you mentioned? Is that fact too? Who's to say the guy that won the bid has 10 trucks or maybe he subs out a bunch of work. I think there's more to it then everyone else needing to put a plow on our Pontiac. LOL


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

.....Why is it..When someone comes in with a Lower bid than Yours..They are Freaking Lowballers and they suck?????

Are Your prices that Low..That if someone is Lower...They have Lowballed it...

I gotta say...For doing Banks or Fast Food places or Small commercial accounts...Those jeeps will outshine a Pick-up any day.....


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

Matson Snow;1426068 said:


> .....Why is it..When someone comes in with a Lower bid than Yours..They are Freaking Lowballers and they suck?????
> 
> Are Your prices that Low..That if someone is Lower...They have Lowballed it...
> 
> I gotta say...For doing Banks or Fast Food places or Small commercial accounts...Those jeeps will outshine a Pick-up any day.....


Wish we could get a like button Thumbs Up


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

The size of the jeep is not the problem
Problem with that jeep
residential plates+ logo = illegal in NJ doing commercial work


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Speaking of smaller trucks with plows. I have a Dodge Dakota quad cab, 5.9l, with a 7'6" western unimount with pro wings, and it is a bad a$$ on smaller lots. I have several 3/4 ton trucks and a couple 1 ton trucks, but I love plowing with the Dakota. It turns on a dime, has a ton of power, and is fun to drive. On smaller lots or larger lots that are broke up it will out perform the bigger trucks all day long. I am looking for another or 2 for next year.

Sorry to hijack the thread. Just my .02


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Bossman 92;1426088 said:


> Speaking of smaller trucks with plows. I have a Dodge Dakota quad cab, 5.9l, with a 7'6" western unimount with pro wings, and it is a bad a$$ on smaller lots. I have several 3/4 ton trucks and a couple 1 ton trucks, but I love plowing with the Dakota. It turns on a dime, has a ton of power, and is fun to drive. On smaller lots or larger lots that are broke up it will out perform the bigger trucks all day long. I am looking for another or 2 for next year.
> 
> Sorry to hijack the thread. Just my .02


Careful....You might be called a "Lowballer" for using a Small truck.......


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## Peterbilt (Apr 28, 2007)

I have 6 banks on my routes, and I wish I could have that jeep at every single one of them. 

My trucks and loaders are to wide to get throught the drive ups, and we end up clearing them by hand. Everytime we break out the shovels, I miss my Nissan Frontier with 6'8 Sno Way even more.

J.


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## mulcahy mowing (Jan 16, 2006)

I feel the same way! I was out bid this year on two gas stations and a dentist's office. The other day while gettiing gas at one of the stations a toyota tundra with a fisher sd plow pulled in and started plowing. To make matters worse he had a kid hop out and pull out a walk behind spreader to salt the lot....

My over head is low I own my equipment no big payments or over head but I can't compete with these guys. :realmad:


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## SharpBlades (Sep 13, 2009)

I hate being under bid, but has it occured to anyone that these people are maybe just getting into the business? 

I know when I started up my prices were lower than the big guys but I still made plenty of money. I then purcased larger and more equipment which raised my overhead and made my prices higher and I then lost accounts to "lowballers" who could work for less. It's a cycle... If the guy having the wrong plates bothers you that much, get his info and turn him in... I doubt anything will happen besides taking the signs off the jeep.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

tjlands;1426078 said:


> The size of the jeep is not the problem
> Problem with that jeep
> residential plates+ logo = illegal in NJ doing commercial work


Same in MA. Although my grandfathers buddy has a landscaping business he sometimes uses his jeep for, so instead of on the car logo, he put it on the tire cover, theres no need to go commercial for that! Thumbs Up


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## s. donato (Dec 9, 2010)

hey i use a walk behind salter 

mainly b/c to add a tailgate spreader to my truck it would be so freaking long ;-) plus i only have a few small accounts that want salt. many have been buying their own salt and doing it themselves. i guess it will change the way people will be pricing salting if more start doing this.

If i had 2 more accounts that wanted salt i may wind up getting a spreader.

i guess i am a low baller b/c i don't have a spreader ;-)


OP i see that residential plates plowing commercially EVERYDAY. i would say at least 50% of the trucks that i see out there plowing are residential plated. :realmad:

personally if that jeep could pull my work trailer I would own one in a heart beat.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I don't know about the rules and regs. in NJ, around here the plate doesn't matter (thank God) but that would tick me off if I lost a bid to someone who, more than likely "proclaims" to be legit and playing by the rules so to speak and you base your bids off of everything from ins. to overhead etc. (like everyone else should be) and then you find out they are anything but. You have to admit, the standard in the industry is definitely slipping. I guess I'm referring more to the plates than the Jeep cuz I've wanted to run a Jeep for a couple season's now strictly for small lots and driveway's.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Who does budding for snow in January? A little late isn't it?


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## THEGOLDPRO (Jun 18, 2006)

Cry baby..


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

SharpBlades;1426198 said:


> I hate being under bid, but has it occured to anyone that these people are maybe just getting into the business?
> 
> I know when I started up my prices were lower than the big guys but I still made plenty of money. I then purcased larger and more equipment which raised my overhead and made my prices higher and I then lost accounts to "lowballers" who could work for less. It's a cycle... If the guy having the wrong plates bothers you that much, get his info and turn him in... I doubt anything will happen besides taking the signs off the jeep.


This is the point that people are complaining about. Just because your new doesn't mean we should all suffer because you don't know what the market will bring and where the price should be. This is the problem with this type of industry, you have too many guys who honestly are not business thinking men. Most are guys who do this on the side and they figure hey if I can make a few bucks, pay a few bills, I'm set. This way of thinking is dangerous to the industry and to you in a couple years and is why it is the way it is now. Everything in life has gone up in price but the prices in this industry. Do you go into a "new" restaurant and pay 30-60% less than the one right next door.....I doubt it! They sat down and figured all the cost and came up with a competitive price, not just winged it. Until guys actually sit down, treat it like a real business, know exactly how much goes into a bid and what a competitive price should be nothing is going to change. Leaving a small percentage on the table is one thing but anything (I think) above 15% is too much. Just my 2 cents.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

THEGOLDPRO;1426220 said:


> Cry baby..


I saw a sweet Dodge today for ya! LOUD ars, huge single stack cummins. I left my phone in our loader so couldn't take a pic, sorry.


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## Lkohan (Dec 31, 2011)

The size of the jeep is not the problem
Problem with that jeep
residential plates+ logo = illegal in NJ doing commercial work 

Actually it is not illegal in NJ. He can actual register the vehicle commercial without putting commercial plates on the vehicle. It has to do with type and size of vehicle. Check out Title 39 and you will find your answer. I will see if I can locate the statute but he is well within legal standards if he does it this way. 

I have a Jeep that I use to plow with and it is great. Yes it is registered commercial and no it doesn't have commercial plates. Just my 2 cents but no that is not me in the picture either. I have noticed since the recession that rates have dropped significantly. I have a hotel, 7 day care centers, and 13 gas stations. I would probably make more money doing hourly work., Especially at the rates of insurance in NJ.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

s. donato;1426211 said:


> hey i use a walk behind salter
> 
> mainly b/c to add a tailgate spreader to my truck it would be so freaking long ;-) plus i only have a few small accounts that want salt. many have been buying their own salt and doing it themselves. i guess it will change the way people will be pricing salting if more start doing this.
> 
> ...


At least here in MA, regular plates allow you to plow, but to ADVERTISE you MUST be commercial plates.


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## s. donato (Dec 9, 2010)

Lkohan;1426245 said:


> Actually it is not illegal in NJ. He can actual register the vehicle commercial without putting commercial plates on the vehicle. It has to do with type and size of vehicle. Check out Title 39 and you will find your answer. I will see if I can locate the statute but he is well within legal standards if he does it this way.


never heard of that before!!! not doubting it at all - heck its jersey i am sure we have a stupid law like that, but how does it get insured.

and if you get pulled over by a trooper using it for commercial work will you get away with out a ticket? i am very curious about that. i am going to have to look it up.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

SharpBlades;1426198 said:


> I hate being under bid, but has it occured to anyone that these people are maybe just getting into the business?
> 
> I know when I started up my prices were lower than the big guys but I still made plenty of money. I then purcased larger and more equipment which raised my overhead and made my prices higher and I then lost accounts to "lowballers" who could work for less. It's a cycle... If the guy having the wrong plates bothers you that much, get his info and turn him in... I doubt anything will happen besides taking the signs off the jeep.


plain and simple the playing field should be equal,
the plates and probably no strobes just mean he is not a legit operation, if someone wanted to be a pr!k they could run into him while he is backing up plowing a commercial lot.
Believe me then he would be done.

Turning them in wouldnt do anything, who would you turn him in to? 
You would be very hard pressed to find someone that cared....unless the company that hired them , maybe.... when you tell them that they would be sued if something did happen.


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## s. donato (Dec 9, 2010)

i just spent the last 30 mins looking for a clear answer on this and like usual nothing in this state is clear. still i am not saying he is wrong but like everything it is unclear.




all i remember is that when i registered my truck there is a yes/no box that you have to check whether or not this vehicle will be used for commercial purposes.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

s. donato;1426291 said:


> i just spent the last 30 mins looking for a clear answer on this and like usual nothing in this state is clear. still i am not saying he is wrong but like everything it is unclear.
> 
> all i remember is that when i registered my truck there is a yes/no box that you have to check whether or not this vehicle will be used for commercial purposes.


In NJ any vehicle used for commercial purpose requires commercial plates and commercial liability insurance. 
But like I said before unless you get in an accident plowing or get sued......

Had a friend with a computer business that put his business logos and phone numbers on a couple of family car windows, unfortunately his wife got in a accident totaled the Tahoe and his insurance company would not pay when they saw it.
Just call your insurance agent if your not sure and be careful.


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## adamhumberview (Dec 27, 2009)

the largest hospital contract in ontario is sunnybrook.. $600,000+ a year.. they have 2 jeeps on site doing all the parking garages and the driveways! jeeps are great for specific applications.. 

your laughing at him b/c of his jeep.. he's laughing at you bc his jeep is making your $$!


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## Krrz350 (Nov 9, 2011)

jhall22guitar;1426249 said:


> At least here in MA, regular plates allow you to plow


Not in a situation like the OP's

540 CMR 2
"A vehicle used for hire to plow" is required commercial. Also, it's my understanding that commercial auto insurance policies in Mass have a specific binder for snow removal & firewood use, so I'm assuming a personal use auto policy has a clause that you can't plow for hire, it works different for muni work as well but I haven't researched that aspect yet.


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## DodgeBlizzard (Nov 7, 2003)

Brian Young;1426227 said:


> This is the point that people are complaining about. Just because your new doesn't mean we should all suffer because you don't know what the market will bring and where the price should be. This is the problem with this type of industry, you have too many guys who honestly are not business thinking men. Most are guys who do this on the side and they figure hey if I can make a few bucks, pay a few bills, I'm set. This way of thinking is dangerous to the industry and to you in a couple years and is why it is the way it is now. Everything in life has gone up in price but the prices in this industry. Do you go into a "new" restaurant and pay 30-60% less than the one right next door.....I doubt it! They sat down and figured all the cost and came up with a competitive price, not just winged it. Until guys actually sit down, treat it like a real business, know exactly how much goes into a bid and what a competitive price should be nothing is going to change. Leaving a small percentage on the table is one thing but anything (I think) above 15% is too much. Just my 2 cents.


Their are only a small percentage of people who give actual prices on this site. How are we to get prices back up where they need to be if it's top secret?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

DodgeBlizzard;1426468 said:


> Their are only a small percentage of people who give actual prices on this site. How are we to get prices back up where they need to be if it's top secret?


Well you make a good point. I guess I always see and hear "my prices were cut in half etc. I would hope you would have at least a small clue as to what the pricing is in your specific area and go from there.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

Lkohan;1426245 said:


> The size of the jeep is not the problem
> Problem with that jeep
> residential plates+ logo = illegal in NJ doing commercial work
> 
> ...


sorry missed this response

You are 100% wrong,
in NJ if you use your truck, car, jeep, whatever- *for hire*...ie.. snow plowing..
you need commercial plates and commercial insurance
but do whatever you want, I hope you don't find out the hard way.

If you own a business, say a car wash and want the car wash to own it, yes it can be registered the way you explain it, but you cannot use it to "work" for anybody else.
ask your insurance agent,


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

Lkohan;1426245 said:


> . I have a hotel, 7 day care centers, and 13 gas stations. I would probably make more money doing hourly work., Especially at the rates of insurance in NJ.


You do all that with 1 truck...jeep?


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## Liberty LLC (Dec 23, 2011)

He is correct you can register it with personal plates if it is used for personal use also ie company cars and such. I have three vehicles all have personal plates two are registered to my business the one isn't it has a loan and nj dmv wont allow it in a name other then the loan paperwork. I have been pulled over many times no issues, my truck is self inspect and a lot of police don't understand that. I have never had an issue. I am also law enforcement and I make sure nothing effects my job first and foremost. I have spoke to my agent ins that is about the personal titled truck and he stated it isn't an issue and I have it in writing as this year its getting lettered up. I have liability insurance for the business through the same agent. I had a jeep it just didn't have power steering and was a stick it was more trouble I use a bronco now more power and still gets in tight areas.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

you think thats bad, LOL, around here we got a chain of national drug stores being done by 2 guys on 4 wheelers. i dont know how many they do exactly but it takes them almost 2 days to clear them all. We also have a "company" that is clearing commercial lots with snow blowers.


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## Lkohan (Dec 31, 2011)

Liberty I am in law enforcement as well and I am trying to find the title 39 chapter that covers that issue. My partner in my business has personal plates and he has had State Farm include a snowplow rider on his personal auto policy. They will not do that any more but as long as he remains with them he is grandfathered in. They laughed at me when I asked for that policy.
TJLANDS no not one truck. I own 1 pickup with a 7.5 blade and 1.5 yd salter, the jeep and 1 bobcat. My partner has 1 pickup with a 7.5 blade and 1.5 yd salter and we have 2 other pickups that work hourly for us when we need them.


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## havenlax18 (Dec 16, 2010)

Don't really see anything wrong with that. Nice rig, perfectly fine with it... Also probably fuel efficient.


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## nepatsfan (Sep 16, 2004)

"This guy has to be a lowballer. We lowballed the sh$t out of that proposal. No way anyone would ever go cheaper"

I see this lowballer thing all the time. How do you know the bid was lower? Just because you lost the account. We are never the lowest bid and we get work. We have a HOA that we got this year. A guy I know had it for 10 years( I had no idea). I was telling him about the account when he told me he used to have it(WHOOOPS!) We were just kinda shooting the breeze and I was telling him what we were doing this year. Turns out I am about 40-50% higher than him...no joke.

Sometimes it isn't just the cheapest price and just because you lowballed it doesn't mean someone else didn't lowball it too because they have accounts around there or on their way.


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## KM81 (Dec 18, 2010)

OHHH I get it. So in your eyes, in order to be a real company you need to have a big 3/4 or 1 ton pick up truck with a 9' V plow on it. That must be what I was doing wrong all these years. Stupid me.


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## nsmilligan (Dec 21, 1999)

Here any of my commercial contracts require I provide proof of commercial liability insurance, with the client as a co-insured, and proof that we have an approved safety program in place. Things are sometimes quite different from state to state and province to province, but I'm surprised the Bank in this case doesn't require it. If they have hired a Contractor who doesn't have commercial liability insurance, or proof that they have a safety programe they may be leaving themselves open to be sued in case of an accident.
It doesn't make a level playing field when the lowest bidder doesn't have the same level of protection for the client.

Bill


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## shovelracer (Sep 3, 2004)

Dana 44's, lockers, solid front axle, short wheelbase, yep I'd run it. Like has been beaten the issue has to do with the plates. Which if my competitor took a picture of regardless of commercial status, plastered on the net, and did not photoshop the plates, I'd be really ticked. As far as lowballing goes most of the time it is assumed that they priced something a certain way. Perhaps the branch manager saw a f450 trying to squeeze through an atm lane and thought the wrong tools were being used. This happens. I snagged a contract one time from a larger company that took it as far as approaching us about it. The owner felt we somehow wronged them. They were unreliable, showed up late, and the work was sloppy. We were called in, the customer explained what they needed and we built a program to meet that. Our price was higher according to the manager, but after one season they valued it, and had no problem upgrading to a long term contract. I can not say that I've never been in the opposite position either. Usually looking back there was something wrong. Sometimes it is the customer constraining services that causes their unhappiness, and sometimes it is just that the program was built to fail because the right things are not being done. Sometimes it is money driven. Sometimes there are personal agendas.


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## BOSSMAN21 (Dec 11, 2008)

nepatsfan;1426942 said:


> "This guy has to be a lowballer. We lowballed the sh$t out of that proposal. No way anyone would ever go cheaper"
> 
> I see this lowballer thing all the time. How do you know the bid was lower? Just because you lost the account. We are never the lowest bid and we get work. We have a HOA that we got this year. A guy I know had it for 10 years( I had no idea). I was telling him about the account when he told me he used to have it(WHOOOPS!) We were just kinda shooting the breeze and I was telling him what we were doing this year. Turns out I am about 40-50% higher than him...no joke.
> 
> Sometimes it isn't just the cheapest price and just because you lowballed it doesn't mean someone else didn't lowball it too because they have accounts around there or on their way.


Exactly, I know this year in particular, I bid $4950 on a small apartment complex and my competitor bid $3800 and some change....well needless to say, I got the bid, and because of my competitors track record in the Snow Plow biz, he is watching me make money when he drives by and I wave. Just when you lose the bid doesn't mean you got lowballed.


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

Ramairfreak98ss;1426015 said:


> We were outbid on local banks... there were about 18 of them total in our county so not a tiny bank but not TurD or Wells Fargo or anything...
> 
> Our bid was on the low end, knowing we could handle most of them on route to a lot of other snow sites... they even re-bid the work in the summer..and yet this is the company that outbid us and was awarded the 2yr contract :/ They DO have a 2000+ model f450 9' mason dump truck too i saw passing one, but then they had their "personal jeep" out with a 7' boss sport poly plow.. It was pretty cute until i saw their logo on the side of it and it pulled into the bank 100' after we took this photo :/ Gonna have to put some 8' fiberglass plows on our mustangs and pontiacs soon !


Hey, It doesn't really matter how much I plow for, as long as I make enough to cover the jeep paymentpayup


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Nice Jeep.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

My equipment's paid for...I'm paying taxes, paying for my insurance, and making profit with no employees. I bet my price would be lower than someone else who has alot more overhead. Does it make me a lowballer, or a business man?


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## Eronningen (Dec 20, 2008)

I think OP's meaning was the smaller residential/homeowner type equipment on commercial sized work. I am not taking a stance but will say this much........We see the same thing here, small under sized rigs/people getting in on things they aren't cut out for. This is all fine and dandy until there is a real snow fall, than they fall. Last year we had some good storms and the small equipment guys that were over booked and under sized looked like fools. I would suspect that was OP's point?


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## Eronningen (Dec 20, 2008)

JTVLandscaping;1427593 said:


> My equipment's paid for...I'm paying taxes, paying for my insurance, and making profit with no employees. I bet my price would be lower than someone else who has alot more overhead. Does it make me a lowballer, or a business man?


Mine is too but I'm not going to work for less because I have been successful and frugal.


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm not in the commercial plowing business but I'm considering doing so next year. That is one reason I read this forum. If I make the jump I will probably be bidding against those who are more established than I am and if I win the contract I guess I would be considered a low baller.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

Yes, if you take a contract for another guy. Knowing your barley going to turn a profit. YOU ARE A LOW BALLER... Happens all the time here in Columbus, I lose bids all the time to Brickman. There mowing is the worst


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

Flawless440;1427699 said:


> Yes, if you take a contract for another guy. Knowing your barley going to turn a profit. YOU ARE A LOW BALLER... Happens all the time here in Columbus, I lose bids all the time to Brickman. There mowing is the worst


Sounds like capitalism to me!


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## mulcahy mowing (Jan 16, 2006)

Flawless440;1427699 said:


> Yes, if you take a contract for another guy. Knowing your barley going to turn a profit. YOU ARE A LOW BALLER... Happens all the time here in Columbus, I lose bids all the time to Brickman. There mowing is the worst


Brickman just came into the game in my area as well... I have not seen them doing much snow removal. I have seen them doing mowing, not much pride in the workmanship for sure.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Yeah GregH, the bank new manager said they wern't only basing the contract on price, because they just had already signed a company and 3 months into this past year's landscape contract, they wanted a rebid suddenly... Priced most of it 3-4% lower than previously and kept our snow rates the same.... I've never heard of this company until this week but i know theres thousands in NJ now.

im sure the jeep works fine for these little banks.

They could be using 40 vehicles, have no idea... but for sure i would not send out my ford explorer with a sport duty plow in any storm less than SO BAD that all of our trucks are behind, and certainly not a 2" storm. The jeep isnt commercial either, so it carries no commercial insurance nor is it registered as such to do this work in NJ... just another joe blow in NJ plowing snow but its a legitimate company owning this vehicle :/

And its not a big dent in our pocket, banks dont pay squat for snow usually, but the bid was per push, so we bid it. They have enough banks and fairly close proximity to each other that a tiny company wouldnt be able to do them "snow or landscape".

The jeeps size gets an A+ for small lots, its transmission, suspension, capacity, smallest plow in the world cant be graded.

Thanks tjlands, exactly my point, we just had to buy an "extra" snow insurance GL policy for "all the snow work we do" per our insurance agent.. we actually switched agents because their prices were 20% more than we ended up having to buy an extra policy for and still it was about $10,000 on top of everything we already pay. Im sure these guys dont have one of them. Yeah im bitter over that, so sue me 

Matson, you missed the point, has nothing to do with small, although that jeep has no purpose for anything but small tiny properties. 

Mulcahy... that is funny, you have no idea how many times i think its terrible these "companies" in nj i see are using the smallest possible tailgate spreaders.. no not a $1500 nice one, but a $700 saltdogg or smaller... like snowex or ones that hold maybe 6 bags? POS is just a motor hanging out the bottom of a plastic hopper.. i could build them in my shop :/ ... THEN i see the guys push spread salt on the lots... i have to say we only had done that once two years ago and was at night at least so no one saw our sorry a$$es lol. Spreader was completely jammed and would take too long to fix, easier to wait till the morning.

Sharpblades... we've done just that in 2009... a bunch of local companies grouped up to get photos of A. companies with workers on properties... and forward that to dept of labor and div of taxation in nj... see if they pay taxes or anyones on the books B. liscense plates to see if theyre legitimately a company or paying for commercial tags... $150-300 vs $48 in NJ and C. trucks that arnt legally lettered with gvw, lisc #, company name, city/state and phone number.... i have probably 75 different sets of digital photos of my own. We had over 1000 "companies or Joes" we sent in to these departments... nothing turned up of it. The states agencies cant spend time looking into it, although we handed them the proof.... BTW, div of consumer affairs had a "sting" this summer.. they checked all contractors/commercial who stopped at local home depots.. they bothered 3 of our managers for NOT having our home improvement contractors liscense # on the side of those trucks... that company "since its ALL commercial only", doesnt need that liscense nor the # on the side of the truck. Nobody received a ticket but one got a "warning"... please, your stopping our truck with $400 digital print vinyl on it, Fully compliant with every law in NJ and you're bothering us? 

LKohan.. ALL vehicles used for ANY commercial purpose must be tagged commercial... no matter if its a smart car, yes the min weight is 5000lbs but you'll notice chevy HHRs for inspectors are gvw 5000 and commercial tags. If your wife wants to put her flower delivery logos and number on the side for a business to deliver flowers... must be commercial tags and gvw 5000 lbs. Also no insurance carrier will insure your vehicle if its used for commercial use at all.

If this jeep hits someone, someone hits him, damages property or a person or anything, his insurance will deny the claim, the person they hit will have to sue, wont be paid anything for their vehicle/property losses and thats why we all have to pay "under or uninsured" motor vehicle insurances.

You cant register your jeep commercial to DMV without having commercial plates... they're 2 seperate forms.. or you're saying you have commercial insurance on a non commercial titled vehicle? How?


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

tjlands;1426323 said:


> In NJ any vehicle used for commercial purpose requires commercial plates and commercial liability insurance.
> But like I said before unless you get in an accident plowing or get sued......
> 
> Had a friend with a computer business that put his business logos and phone numbers on a couple of family car windows, unfortunately his wife got in a accident totaled the Tahoe and his insurance company would not pay when they saw it.
> Just call your insurance agent if your not sure and be careful.


yep... thats all they need to screw you over..... sucks, and i don't agree but if i have to pay extra to follow the rules then everyone else should your in business against.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

tjlands;1426565 said:


> You do all that with 1 truck...jeep?


I thought the same thing but didn't care what the response would be


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Eronningen;1427597 said:


> I think OP's meaning was the smaller residential/homeowner type equipment on commercial sized work. I am not taking a stance but will say this much........We see the same thing here, small under sized rigs/people getting in on things they aren't cut out for. This is all fine and dandy until there is a real snow fall, than they fall. Last year we had some good storms and the small equipment guys that were over booked and under sized looked like fools. I would suspect that was OP's point?


yes that too,, since i too have a 7'6" boss plow on a 91 f150 non 4x4.. yeah thats funny because its not 4x4 and its a 20+ year old truck... but its a backup basically and will push a few inches fine. Ive actually had to push a bigger lot with 8" early 2010 and it did "ok", but was losing traction up front and still spinning back wheels with 1500-2000lbs of salt in back.. it would push 4x more than that little light jeep ever would though so knowing how limited i am with a old f150, i cant imagine something any lighter or less heavy duty


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Eronningen;1427607 said:


> Mine is too but I'm not going to work for less because I have been successful and frugal.


Thats the right way to go about it! I charged more when i have low overhead starting up with cheaper equipment than i do now to some extent... certainly because we have 50k john deere skid steers and can move a ton of snow doesnt mean i'll do it cheap because we can do 200-300k parking lots in only an hour or two.

I bought the bigger equipment to make $500/hr, not so i can make $100/hr and think im cool with fancy machines doing it.


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## PALSLANDSCAPING (Dec 3, 2011)

Ram I am with you on this one. Don't jump all over me either guys. I see his point due to his company being all legit in Jersey. I feel the same way when I pay for my insurance and regs in this state, when you see a guy going down the road that is not all legit. It gets frustrating. We see it here all the time. I have no problem losing a contract to a company that is fully legit just like I am. I also have alot of over head and have alot of new equipment, and with the tough times I kept alot of my prices the same its just the approuch I took talking to alot of the commercial properties I service. Just like in the summer months, there is nothing better then driving down the road and seeing a Jeep Cherokee pulling a 16 ft trailer loaded with mowers with no name or commercial tags. Also there is no 39 statue for the commercial plates.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Matson Snow;1426068 said:


> .....Why is it..*When someone comes in with a Lower bid than Yours..They are Freaking Lowballers and they suck?????**Are Your prices that Low..That if someone is Lower...They have Lowballed it...*
> 
> I gotta say...For doing Banks or Fast Food places or Small commercial accounts...Those jeeps will outshine a Pick-up any day.....


Ramair.....

I did not miss the Point...I highlighted the Points in My post.....

I suggest insted of Playing Magnum P.I. and driving around and looking for illegals and companys YOU think don't have insurance....Trying Providing Great Service to the Customers you have...

So...Untill next time when you Post another Ramair Cluster F$ck....Have a Great Day...:salute:


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## shovelracer (Sep 3, 2004)

It is possible to insure the vehicle commercially and have regular plates. It does not make it right or even mean you will be covered, but technically possible. The insurance doesn't ask anything about registration and the MVC simply asks for a policy number. Neither will turn your money away. Dangerous gamble.

There was one comment about using and exploder on an emergency basis. You can be covered for this. There is coverage with for temp and borrowed vehicles. Regular vehicles that are being used in an emergency situation. I believe the wording actually mentions something about family members vehicles, but non the less. With my coverage I could theoretically take my wifes car out for business on a borrowed and non permanent basis and we would be covered if the vehicle had an issue while conducting business. Again this is just insurance. Not sure how the registration would play into it.


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

I don't know about New Jersey, but around here, the banks I plowed wouldn't sign the contract until I gave them a copy of my insurance showing the coverage they required.


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## Lkohan (Dec 31, 2011)

I am telling you about the loophole in NJ law. If you are savy enough to know it you can put regular plates on smaller vehicles and register them commercially and insure them commercially. I have seen it done. I carry Commercial Insurance and Commercial plates as well as a G/L policy on my stuff so I know the cost of business. Also my non commercial pickup truck costs me $150/yr to register so there are no great savings to be found commercial vs. residential. As far as the Jeeps go I own one and use it as a cleanup vehicle between cars in a large lot. Places I couldn't fit a 7.5 ft blade. We must cleanup between cars as per our contract and this saves time and money. Since it's a hotel its not like a regular commecial lot where at night the lot is empty. But enough of this dead horse.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

JTVLandscaping;1427593 said:


> My equipment's paid for...I'm paying taxes, paying for my insurance, and making profit with no employees. I bet my price would be lower than someone else who has alot more overhead. Does it make me a lowballer, or a business man?


Your equipment is paid for which is Great....But, that Equipment is going to need to be replaced sooner or later....

I just don't understand when someone says....."My equipment is Paid for so i can charge less"...

lets not De-value the Service...Due to Good Business practices on your part...


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## Lkohan (Dec 31, 2011)

Matson Snow;1428444 said:


> Your equipment is paid for which is Great....But, that Equipment is going to need to be replaced sooner or later....
> 
> I just don't understand when someone says....."My equipment is Paid for so i can charge less"...
> 
> lets not De-value the Service...Due to Good Business practices on your part...


Totally agree and in your course of business you need to remember that wear and tear needs to be included into your pricing including fuel costs. It is all part of your overhead as well as insurance costs. Also you must consider your salt and equipment that you may pay for 3-4 months before it gets used in a season depending on the first snow. I take all that into consideration. You can charge less if when this equipment dies your out of business.

I checked the MVC law and it says that you must get commercial plates but I have seen it done before, must be somebody does know someone. Onto the insurance in NJ has anyone used NJ Manufacturers for their plow insurance and how does it fair against Progressive Commercial Insurance. Also has everyone noticed a spike in the cost per vehicle for G/L coverage.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Matson Snow;1428444 said:


> Your equipment is paid for which is Great....But, that Equipment is going to need to be replaced sooner or later....
> 
> I just don't understand when someone says....."My equipment is Paid for so i can charge less"...
> 
> lets not De-value the Service...Due to Good Business practices on your part...


Making prices artificially high to match your competitor's is called price-fixing.

Let people price they way they like. If they're not making any money then so be it, more for the rest of us next year or the year after when they are out of business.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

Lkohan;1428427 said:


> I am telling you about the loophole in NJ law. If you are savy enough to know it you can put regular plates on smaller vehicles and register them commercially and insure them commercially. I have seen it done. I carry Commercial Insurance and Commercial plates as well as a G/L policy on my stuff so I know the cost of business. Also my non commercial pickup truck costs me $150/yr to register so there are no great savings to be found commercial vs. residential. As far as the Jeeps go I own one and use it as a cleanup vehicle between cars in a large lot. Places I couldn't fit a 7.5 ft blade. We must cleanup between cars as per our contract and this saves time and money. Since it's a hotel its not like a regular commecial lot where at night the lot is empty. But enough of this dead horse.


Its not a dead horse, 
There is no loophole, (insurance fraud maybe, maybe not)
if you are plowing for hire in NJ with Regular plates you are breaking the law. 
What Insurance company do you use and what is your agents #. 
Maybe I will call and try this...........


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## Lkohan (Dec 31, 2011)

PALSLANDSCAPING Also there is no 39 statue for the commercial plates. 

From NJ MVC website 39:3-20 covers Commercial plates and registration.


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## Lkohan (Dec 31, 2011)

tjlands;1428459 said:


> Its not a dead horse,
> There is no loophole, (insurance fraud maybe, maybe not)
> if you are plowing for hire in NJ with Regular plates you are breaking the law.
> What Insurance company do you use and what is your agents #.
> Maybe I will call and try this...........


I use Progressive Commercial and get it on-line. My vehicles are registered to my company. However, I know of 2 guys that have commercial registrations with private vehicle plates, one has volunteer firefighter plates and the other just regular plates. In addition a buddy of mine has State Farm personal auto and he has plow insurance through them. I called and they laughed at me and said that they no longer offer this but he is grandfathered into their policy. He pays about 1/2 what I pay for commercial plow insurance and it annoys the heck out of me. I didn't believe him until he showed me the policy. I pay for my 2 vehicles almost $8,500 for liability and auto, which includes liability on my Bobcat.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

Matson Snow;1428444 said:


> Your equipment is paid for which is Great....But, that Equipment is going to need to be replaced sooner or later....
> 
> I just don't understand when someone says....."My equipment is Paid for so i can charge less"...
> 
> lets not De-value the Service...Due to Good Business practices on your part...


Equipment replacement is all calculated into the bid, but I don't have to figure in the cost of employees and worker's comp insurance because I don't have those things. I'm not going to charge $500/hr because someone else in town needs to charge that much, and I'm not de-valuing the business because of it. I'm never the low bidder, but I'm rarely the highest bidder. If we're all truely figuring costs into our bids, then unless we all have the same costs, our bids will all be different.


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## motodad (Jul 6, 2010)

Eronningen;1427597 said:


> I think OP's meaning was the smaller residential/homeowner type equipment on commercial sized work. I am not taking a stance but will say this much........We see the same thing here, small under sized rigs/people getting in on things they aren't cut out for. This is all fine and dandy until there is a real snow fall, than they fall. Last year we had some good storms and the small equipment guys that were over booked and under sized looked like fools. I would suspect that was OP's point?


I agree, I lost 2 big lots to a guy that never plowed before and had a 1985 ford rot box with a 1970's plow this guy is undercutting everyone in the lawn biz aswell with his walmart zero turn, HELL ya he can bid cheap because he has no over head but comon no ins no bwc or anyhing trying to do huge lots that we use loaders on thats what pisses me off but the part that kinda makes it better is the guy lost these lots already because he billed them for 2 plows and we havent had 1/4 in of snow.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

hoskm01;1428454 said:


> Making prices artificially high to match your competitor's is called price-fixing.


You sure about that?

If the number for the client is the same, one can't expect and realize a higher profit margin than others if their costs are lower? One *must* give the client a lower number?


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

motodad;1428634 said:


> I agree, I lost 2 big lots to a guy that never plowed before and had a 1985 ford rot box with a 1970's plow this guy is undercutting everyone in the lawn biz aswell with his walmart zero turn, HELL ya he can bid cheap because he has no over head but comon no ins no bwc or anyhing trying to do huge lots that we use loaders on thats what pisses me off but the part that kinda makes it better is the guy lost these lots already because he billed them for 2 plows and we havent had 1/4 in of snow.


I'm surprised we're not hearing more stories like this. After last year's record snowfall...everyone went out and bought every old truck with a plow on it. What a good way to make a few bucks. Then it hasn't snowed yet. All that money tied up into plowing...it was such a sure thing last year. Now everyone is going out and plowing an inch where they have a 3" trigger.


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## Lkohan (Dec 31, 2011)

I actually bid a huge account that would have required quite a few subs. I lost it to a guy. His bid he came in said he would beat my bid by $100 and throw in 3 years of free lawn maintenance. BTW it was an hourly bid. OOPS I guess that will sting him a little. Alot of guys are going based on last season and were hoping for the same. This business goes in cycles and you can't bet it all on one season. Just gotta roll with it and hope to make some money. If not we take a loss this year and hope for the best next year. Alot of people think this is easy I can do this and they don't realize the overhead and headaches that come with it especially with commercial accounts.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

TCLA;1428647 said:


> You sure about that?
> 
> If the number for the client is the same, one can't expect and realize a higher profit margin than others if their costs are lower? One *must* give the client a lower number?


Margins aside, everyone can charge as they please.

Matson says "Let's not de-value the service." The only way to correct for that (for someone who is charging "less") is to make the price higher, to match the price of others.

I will caveat my statement with saying that price-fixing would only occur if there was a concerted effort to discuss and manipulate the pricing, not if you just raised your prices to "match the market."

Proving price-fixing is an entirely separate battle and would be tough to do, but that doesn't make it ethically right to do, just because you probably won't get caught.

And what is value but a perception by the customer? Providing same or better service and satisfaction at a lower price is not-devaluing, it's just beating someone else in the business game. I'm a pretty big believer in "you get what you pay for," but there are exceptions on both ends of that stick as well.


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