# Are there laws regarding # of hours you can plow?



## JerryA31 (Sep 10, 2012)

A huge question that we are trying to figure out is what is the law regarding the number of continuous hours a plow driver can work. It doesn't appear to be under the same class of laws as CDL drivers who have the 14 hour day rule in effect. 

There are several reasons for wanting to know. Safety, Payroll costs and freshness for the next event are the first reasons I thought of. 

Safety is a huge concern. We definitely don't want a patron or employee to get run over because our plow driver fell asleep at the wheel. We also don't want them to run into a light pole or plow up curbs; yes, both have happened unfortunately.

The next two items kind of go together. We know guys take breaks but don't always clock out. Plus we really don't have an extra 100 or whatever plow trucks for a second shift once the first shift takes their break.

Are there laws regarding the number of hours a plow driver can work?


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Why don't you think the Hours of Service cover plowers? Assuming they have a CDL.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

This one should get interesting.

Let's hear the CDL vs Non-CDL. 

Let's hear the debate on who this applies to and who it doesn't.

Remember 10,001 will be the key to this.


----------



## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

That is a very board question. It has to do with how the trucks are registered. If they meet CLD requierments,do your drivers have a CLD driving or working somewhere other than for you, because it's total hours worked not just driving. Also remember if you go down that route they are also limited to total hours worked per work. This samething came to light last year during the blizzard, DOT and DPW are are not requiered to follow hours worked. All the contractors for the state ran out of hours, so they needed to come off the road parking 90 percent of the fleet. The governor needed to sign a order making them all DOT trucks hour problem went way they just needed to follow DOT rules for rest.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

fireside;1784616 said:


> That is a very board question. It has to do with how the trucks are registered. If they meet CLD requierments,do your drivers have a CLD driving or working somewhere other than for you, because it's total hours worked not just driving. Also remember if you go down that route they are also limited to total hours worked per work.


This makes perfect sense to me. 

Hopefully you proof your contracts before sending them out.


----------



## JerryA31 (Sep 10, 2012)

Our big salt trucks require CDL drivers but most of our subcontractors run pickup trucks and skidsteers. Some have worked over 24 hours straight before, with no breaks taken supposedly. We are just trying to make sure we comply with laws and protect ourselves if need be if God forbid a guy runs over and kills somebody. Plus the payroll has gotten out of hand compared to other years.

Then you get into whether or not you have to pay overtime and if we have to give paid breaks during their workday.


----------



## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

You're also plowing on private property so the rules of the road don't apply. If you want to get technical plowing a parking lot isn't really "driving"


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

If the driver has a CDL its clear as snow is white in reflection of light.. If the truck has a GVW of 10,001, HOS applies to all drivers.

Log books are not required within 100 air miles of the shop. A monthly log sheet is to be filled out. A copy of that must be kept the 1st 7 days of the month.

Loaders, skid, so forth are not cover under the HOS.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

procut;1784640 said:


> You're also plowing on private property so the rules of the road don't apply. If you want to get technical plowing a parking lot isn't really "driving"


Not trying to be a jerk but saying the rules of the road don't apply is flat out wrong. If it isn't driving, what/how would you say its doing?

There is certain excluded items, I will grant you that in some instances that have nothing to do with the question.

I believe the term used is "operations of a commercial vehicle" under the DOT rules and reg's


----------



## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

procut;1784640 said:


> You're also plowing on private property so the rules of the road don't apply. If you want to get technical plowing a parking lot isn't really "driving"


You trailering the truck / driver site to site or something?


----------



## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

1olddogtwo;1784657 said:


> Not trying to be a jerk but saying the rules of the road don't apply is flat out wrong. If it isn't driving, what/how would you say its doing?
> 
> There is certain excluded items, I will grant you that in some instances that have nothing to do with the question.
> 
> I believe the term used is "operations of a commercial vehicle" under the DOT rules and reg's


I think it could be argued either way. Your basically using the truck as a piece if equipment, it's plowing not driving. Technically would you even need a drivers license to drive a plow truck on a private lot ?


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Where there is a rule or not, it hangs on both sides employer/employee. If I'm working for someone and they won't let you take a break for a nap,even in the truck and something happens. Same with an employee ,he should tell the the boss he's taking a nap between jobs


----------



## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

I always thought the snow made our hours?

We did a 36 hour shift this winter, slept 6 hours then back at it for 2 more days..


----------



## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm almost positive that if the vehicle is tagged and registered and is over the 10,001lb limit, you have to follow DOT regardless of snow. Just because you're on a private lot plowing doesn't mean anything. How did the truck get there? How will the truck move to the next job? I think the place to look would be whether or not a large truck is exempt during snow emergency events?


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ALC-GregH;1785057 said:


> I'm almost positive that if the vehicle is tagged and registered and is over the 10,001lb limit, you have to follow DOT regardless of snow.


Tags and registration have nothing to do with CMV regulations.


----------



## jhenderson9196 (Nov 14, 2010)

Emergency waivers. If not, explain to me how State and Municipal drivers work their hrs.without rest. Same way you can run your dump or v- box without a cover.


----------



## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

1olddogtwo;1784657 said:


> Not trying to be a jerk but saying the rules of the road don't apply is flat out wrong. If it isn't driving, what/how would you say its doing?
> 
> There is certain excluded items, I will grant you that in some instances that have nothing to do with the question.
> 
> I believe the term used is "operations of a commercial vehicle" under the DOT rules and reg's


He's actually right.

Private property is private property

Legally those stop signs have no legal meaning. Does everyone know that? No.

Now if you drive from site to site throughout the storm. That's a different case


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jhenderson9196;1785087 said:


> Emergency waivers. If not, explain to me how State and Municipal drivers work their hrs.without rest. Same way you can run your dump or v- box without a cover.


Technically, loads must be tarped, at least in MI. It's that awesome "gov't can do things that private folks can't" thing.

Also, muni drivers are exempt from HOS regulations. Just as firemen are exempt from CDL's. Which is stupid IMO.



Whiffyspark;1785088 said:


> He's actually right.
> 
> Private property is private property
> 
> ...


Correct, traffic signs on private property do not carry the same weight as on public roads.

However, HOS do apply on private property, public property, etc.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Love some of these responses.

I going to drive in the left on coming lanes, oh wait they are not "on coming" cause the "Rules of the road" don't not apply. Silly government need to stop making up rules about handicap parking spaces on collecting on these tickets.

Good to know I can plow 20/30 hours straight and then drive a truck 11 hours within the next 14. Mighy be able use those plowing hours if timing is right to meet the 34 hour off rules.


----------



## LawnGuy110 (Feb 15, 2010)

I'm not sure how it works for companies plowing on their own with contracts with private companies but I know for VDOT contracts drivers cannot work more than 14 hours without taking a 6 hour break. The 14 hours includes standby time as well so whether you are plowing or not, 14 hours tops, then a 6 hour break. VDOT requires all snow contractors in Virginia to have at least 2 drivers for each vehicle working under VDOT contracts.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

jhenderson9196;1785087 said:


> Emergency waivers. If not, explain to me how State and Municipal drivers work their hrs.without rest. Same way you can run your dump or v- box without a cover.


 State of emergency declaration does allow certain things, how often does the government declare it?

Chicago has had 46 days of accumulating snow
Zero issued this year


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

1olddogtwo;1785110 said:


> Love some of these responses.
> 
> I going to drive in the left on coming lanes, oh wait they are not "on coming" cause the "Rules of the road" don't not apply. Silly government need to stop making up rules about handicap parking spaces on collecting on these tickets.
> 
> Good to know I can plow 20/30 hours straight and then drive a truck 11 hours within the next 14. Mighy be able use those plowing hours if timing is right to meet the 34 hour off rules.


Good point about the handicap and fire lane tickets.

However, in MI, stop signs, etc do not apply. A cop won't even take an accident report on private property, unless there is an injury.

So I am basing my statements on MI. Some might be different. But don't knock the replies unless you know the rules for all 50 states.


----------



## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

1olddogtwo;1785110 said:


> Love some of these responses.
> 
> I going to drive in the left on coming lanes, oh wait they are not "on coming" cause the "Rules of the road" don't not apply. Silly government need to stop making up rules about handicap parking spaces on collecting on these tickets.
> 
> Good to know I can plow 20/30 hours straight and then drive a truck 11 hours within the next 14. Mighy be able use those plowing hours if timing is right to meet the 34 hour off rules.


You don't drive on the left side?

I do all the time. Lol


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;1785114 said:


> Good point about the handicap and fire lane tickets.
> 
> However, in MI, stop signs, etc do not apply. A cop won't even take an accident report on private property, unless there is an injury.
> 
> So I am basing my statements on MI. Some might be different. But don't knock the replies unless you know the rules for all 50 states.


oh I agree with you about stop signs. as I stated earlier certain things don't apply.


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

In the last couple of years they have changed the wordings in our regulations to "duty cycles", it doesn't matter whether you are driving or not. They can't go as far as check whether you actually sleep but can require a certain amount of consecutive time off between cycles (8) and can check your documentation to prove it. Even the 100 mile log exemption requires you to keep a minimum documentation now..

If a driver is not required to keep a daily log, the operator shall keep a record for the day showing:
Date, driver's name and the location where the driver starts and ends the day
Cycle that the driver is following
Hour at which each duty status starts and ends
Total number of hours spent in each duty status

You can do whatever you want, in an audit they will catch you.


----------



## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Non cdl, as long as you want.


How many hours per day or per week can an employee work?

The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) does not limit the number of hours per day or per week that employees aged 16 years and older can be required to work.

what about age,
some of you could be hiring minors under 18?
DRIVING - 17 Years of Age

Seventeen-year-olds may drive on public roadways as part of their employment, but ONLY if all of the following requirements are met:

The driving is limited to daylight hours;
The 17-year-old holds a state license valid for the type of driving involved in the job performed;
The 17-year-old has successfully completed a state approved driver education course and has no record of any moving violations at the time of hire;
The automobile or truck does not exceed 6,000 pounds gross vehicle weight;
The automobile or truck is equipped with a seat belt for the driver and any passengers and the employer has instructed the youth that the seat belts must be used when driving the vehicle; and
The driving is only occasional and incidental to the 17-year-old's employment. This means that the youth may spend no more than one-third of his or her workday and no more than 20 percent of his or her work time in any workweek driving.


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

SnoFarmer;1785137 said:


> Non cdl, as long as you want.
> 
> How many hours per day or per week can an employee work?
> 
> The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) does not limit the number of hours per day or per week that employees aged 16 years and older can be required to work.


Awesome, employers can make you work with no sleep 24 hrs a day...


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

procut;1784735 said:


> I think it could be argued either way. Your basically using the truck as a piece if equipment, it's plowing not driving. Technically would you even need a drivers license to drive a plow truck on a private lot ?


I would have to say no. Just my opinion though, and assuming you are able to plow said lot without any part of your vehicle being on a road at any time


----------



## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

JerryA31;1784569 said:


> A huge question that we are trying to figure out is what is the law regarding the number of continuous hours a plow driver can work. It doesn't appear to be under the same class of laws as CDL drivers who have the 14 hour day rule in effect.
> 
> There are several reasons for wanting to know. Safety, Payroll costs and freshness for the next event are the first reasons I thought of.
> 
> ...


I have two suggestions;
First, the whole question of whether or not there are laws regarding this, is irrelevant. A lot of discussion in this thread is about whether certain laws apply to plowing or not, or whether there are loop holes to get out of the law. It doesn't matter, because the fact remains that there is only a certain amount of work that you can do and remain alert.

Whether the law applies [fully] or not, 12-14 hours a day is probably the most you want your drivers working. PERIOD.

My second suggestion, is that plowing is hard on you. There is a lot of back and forth. I would say that it takes more out of you than operating a transport on the highway. You get tired faster. That means that from a rational perspective, you should take a bit off compared to what the typical commercial driver is limited to. Commercial driver is limited to 14 hours per day? I'd say limit a plow to 10-12 hours.

"Yeah, but I have done 48 hours straight no problems!" -- that's nice, being pumped up on speed is not a safe option. Point is, of course, that if you give your drivers freedom to work unlimited hours, some of them will do REALLY stupid things to keep themselves going. You definitely don't want to be dealing with the liability of having your employees strung out on weird drugs.


----------



## mud (Dec 15, 2005)

jasonv;1792294 said:


> Point is, of course, that if you give your drivers freedom to work unlimited hours, some of them will do REALLY stupid things to keep themselves going. You definitely don't want to be dealing with the liability of having your employees strung out on weird drugs.


Quite frankly if you need to worry about your employee's being strung out or not being smart enough to call and say "hey I need a few hours rest" you not only need to look at your hiring choices you need to look at your overall management practices.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

mud;1792529 said:


> Quite frankly if you need to worry about your employee's being strung out or not being smart enough to call and say "hey I need a few hours rest" you not only need to look at your hiring choices you need to look at your overall management practices.


Thumbs Up


----------



## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

mud;1792529 said:


> Quite frankly if you need to worry about your employee's being strung out or not being smart enough to call and say "hey I need a few hours rest" you not only need to look at your hiring choices you need to look at your overall management practices.


Either you have never been involved in hiring people for labor, or you are extremely naive. I wish you the best of luck being able to tell the difference between laborers who do and do not use drugs. It becomes especially difficult when you add in competition.

However, PART of what you say does make sense, and effectively PARROTS what I already said; if your overall management practices push employees to work for 40 hours straight, then absolutely you need to look at your overall management practices.

LIKE I SAID, you don't want your plow drivers working more than 10-12 hours per day.


----------



## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

10-12 is a normal work day. We run until the storm is done. If someone needs a nap they can take one.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The only way to be accurate on hiring drug users vs non is buy having urine or hair tests. Has nothing to do with never hiring someone or being naive. If they want, they can hide it and appear perfectly normal.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

With that being said, we drug test when hiring, randomly and for ANY accidents or injuries.

we acquired another franchise 3 years ago, when they became under our ownership, we tested. Two of the brightest lightbulbs failed and the dimmest one past. I would have lost that bet.


----------



## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

All interesting points and things to consider. I have to admit that when I was young and first starting out, I was the guy driving overweight,uninspected trucks for 4 days straight and made a lot of money. Now that I am a old man and wiser for it, I look back and say how foolish and stupid I was. I wouldn't drive any more than six hours if I had to now. The more people you talk to, you will find that the problems such as accidents start to occur after 6 hours, and after 24 it almost becomes certain that you will suffer something. 
As previously stated, it is the management practices that you have that determine your success or failure, not the laws or regulations that exist. I truly believe that the originator of this thread is trying to comply with all the rules and regulations and has a vision that he is trying to achieve. When you get to court, it rarely is about a plow truck operator who fell asleep at the wheel. It is the rule of deep pockets, and a owner, company, governmental unit that has a management practice of letting people work longer than the general population will be made to pay. And increasingly, the amount of training and SOP's that you provide people is coming into play. " Can you drive a plow truck? " does not qualify as a trained operator, yet that is the majority of our industry. 

Sadly, I don't have a lot of sage advice on how to go from a single truck operator to a Brickman. The more you read here and other forums, join organizations like SIMA the better you become. And its tough when the customer only cares about price and considers your services as menial


----------



## mud (Dec 15, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;1793009 said:


> Nice.
> 
> The only way to be accurate on hiring drug users vs non is buy having urine or hair tests. Has nothing to do with never hiring someone or being naive. If they want, they can hide it and appear perfectly normal.


This right here is correct however observation skills should still be used as well.

Much of your troubles can be weeded out with careful selection though. Even if its missed in the hiring process a few weeks of working with a person will give you a lot of insight on the general type of person you hired. If they are not the kind of person you can trust. Find somebody else.


----------



## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1793009 said:


> The only way to be accurate on hiring drug users vs non is buy having urine or hair tests. Has nothing to do with never hiring someone or being naive. If they want, they can hide it and appear perfectly normal.


A urine or hair test is only valid for a certain amount of time *AFTER* the drugs have been consumed.

NOT BEFORE.

And guess what? It doesn't even matter what happened you HIRE someone, or even yesterday or last week. What matters is what happened IMMEDIATELY before, or DURING the work, because that is when the drugs will AFFECT the function of the employee.

Testing people before hiring them, or randomly, can and DOES miss problem employees.

So unless you want to be testing before, during, and after a *JOB*, good luck.

If you provide a work environment that demands drug use to keep up, you will actually be creating the problem you are trying to avoid, therefore proper management practices include keeping the work load and stress down to sensible levels.

People do stupid things when you push them past their limits. Don't push your employees past their limits. DON'T LET YOUR EMPLOYEES PUSH THEMSELVES PAST THEIR LIMITS.

Also, drugs was just an example. And everybody here failed to even consider use of **LEGAL** drugs, like caffeine, or various prescriptions. Being tweaked out on a concentrated dose of caffeine is no less dangerous than illegal drugs.


----------

