# sheetz bid



## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

i just got a bid pack for sheetz the first thing is says is the plowing is up to the store manager. they want a set price per plow but how can i do that if the manger gets to say when it get done. what if they wait until it is been driven on and packed down and then we get more snow on it. i can see it now with some young manager trying to get a bigger bonus by holding off on the plowing.

only way i would even think about bidding it is by the hour, what would you guys do?


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## kramer56 (Oct 13, 2006)

bid the way you want and if you are not awarded it watch the guy breaks his stuff and loses his ass on hours. They really dont know how pride we take in our ability to get the job done right and looking good. You really need to explain to them what can happen to their lot and to the customers. Maybe find on youtube or somewhere a vid of driven on parking lots. Just a thought.


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

someone got a sheetz bid packet from AGMG!! lol


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

ya i did Adam its about a joke isnt it


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## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

What are your questions concerning Sheetz...
we have done them for over 12 years... they are the best account you can have... they will want plowed & salted just about every inch, you will make money... just ask me 814-490-4700


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## csi.northcoast (Aug 7, 2010)

All i can say is wow, contractors get something to bid on and then they ***** about it. If you don't like the bid package don't bid on it .. I am sure Rich will get enough other people to bid on it who want to do it....


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

*Not sure if that is the point Rich?*

Rich,

Not sure if that was the point, or joke so to speak. I think there is a vibe that most of your packets to bid are just fishing. I know I have yet to see any work or action after doing leg work and submitting quote for numerous sites for you or Crystal. And last year we were flat out lied to about the Dollar General sites by more than one person at your firm when we were suspicous and already awarded some a week earlier by another firm. Only after being told we absolutely have ALL of the D.G.'s in area and then days later got a form letter saying oopsie, our bad, someone goofed.

Not meaning to attack, however, it was not really fair and I am sure many people are just tired of doing all of the leg work to get not a drop of work. And to make it worse we were pressured into staying on a weekend after getting less than 24 hours to submit all of your bid info, but first we had to sign up to get on list/qualify. I would like myself and the rest of my office staff to get that weekend back, including our insurance agents, bidders, etc. We were told it would open up doors for other work, so far all it has done is pretty much given us the equivalent of spam in our inbox from your firm, as most quotes are not even remotely close to us and like many have said before, just fishing for us to do your homework to NOT get anywhere.

There are only so many times you can put a quote in for a local Sheets to see it go nowhere and learn the same guy is working for another firm as before. And I am sorry, you should have your numbers by now anyway, just submit it yourself and then when you actually have it, email us and we can get somewhere!!! Again, not meaning to attack but I have been reading your emails and as romatic they sound, your system beats us down as well and has many of just tired of getting used.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

i have stopped at the sheetz around here in the middle of a snow storm and the lots were in HORRIBLE condition. they seem to want to wait til the snow is all done and then get it plowed out, and i dont think they have ever been salted. 2 years ago we had an ice storm, i stopped to get a coffee at one on my way back to the shop, about 10 o'clock sunday morning. i couldnt even get up the ramp into the place it was so slick. 

that seems to be the norm around here though for most commercial places. i had a thread on here about the local Pizza Hut last winter that a couple days after the snow you still had to have 4wd to get around in the parking lot.

maybe it is just this area but when i read about how you have to be legit to get commercial anything none of that is true around here. i know a few guys that plow on the side no insurance, no taxes, get paid cash when they are done and they have alot of commercial stuff because they work for 40/hr.


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

sbg4024;1067256 said:


> All i can say is wow, contractors get something to bid on and then they ***** about it. If you don't like the bid package don't bid on it .. I am sure Rich will get enough other people to bid on it who want to do it....


Refer to quote directly below yours chief


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

Sorry, I meant Sheetz, not Sheets!!! Ooops. My bad, and just to clarify - I don't mind doing quotes, and are excited by new opportunites to bid - that is a big part of my job. However, I just don't like being lied to or led on to get info and or pricing and then only learn it was a fishing expedition. And since I am getting quotes from 100's of miles away, I have not a clue how work is distributed fairly when so many packets are being sent out. It was certainly not presented to us that way, had we known (and trust us we questioned reps up and down) we would have not stressed and paid staff overtime to waste time. Again, not trying to attack but it took everything in my being not to go off last season after the D.G. fiasco. Not cool. Now I just laugh at it like everyone else!!!!


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## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

No one lied about the DG.. we did have the contract but after a careful review of the changes to scope of work we declined to accept it. it was them that changed... the original scope had salting as extra the new scope had salting included but we would still had to do them at the price we submitted just for plowing... so we chose to walk away... that is why you got the letter after the fact... Sorry for any inconvienence but it just was not fair to the contractors....

as for bidding and not getting anything... that is because we use your pricing and when we are not the lowest bid we dont win.... I will not just price things and then come back to you guys and say here is the price take it or leave it....


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Its really no different than if these places called you up directly to place a bid. Just because you measure it out, calculate it, and then prepare it does not mean that you will get it. In fact bidding for Rich is still less work. All you have to do is write some numbers down and send an e-mail, instead of having to "sell" your services. So I don't see what the big problem here is.

I do realize that I will be asked to bid on a lot of stuff that I won't get, but isn't that the cost of doing business? I just got a RFP from AGMG for very large parking lot in my area the other day that I have happen to have my sights on for a couple years now. I don't know what my odds are, but they're better now than previous years since I am at least being asked to bid. 

I really don't mind working for nationals, I think I just have an easier time accepting it than you guys because its the industry I came into. But I also see it as an opportunity for guys like me who are still fairly new in the industry. I do really good work on my lots, not a question about it. I take a lot of pride in building a reputation like that to follow me. But around here, its hard to get into the large lots unless you know all the right people and have been in the game more than a decade. Working with the nationals put me on an accelerated path to gaining a more serious reputation by awarding me contracts like Lowes. I performed great work on that site, and it really boosted my local reputation for when I am making local sales. When I am trying to sell our services to a local manager of an industrial facility, they always comment "Oh, you guys did the Lowes right? It looked great all winter, I want my lot to look like that". There is no better marketing than that!

But anyways, sorry to hijack your thread.


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

Hi Rich, 
When you first came on you said:

"Basically what makes us different is that Myself Crystal, and Mike Nelson have over 25 years experience as snow contractors ourselves. so we get it. Other items are we deliver on what we promise both to the customer and the contractor. We are here to answer questions, deal with problems, and truly understand what you are up against"

You asked for it, here it is. I also remember you originally saying when questioned early on is that the only bid you guys ever retracted was Wachovia?! I don't understand, it sounds like someone in your firm jumped the gun in awarding D.G.'s (and I believe the memo spelled something out to that effect) and I know for a fact that was the main reason we asked over and over again as we were told _yes_, we absolutely have ALL of the sites in our area and its solid!!!!! Why award site if in reality your dealings were not set in stone??? When we consulted again with the sites we were awarded (with a different firm we worked for years) a week earlier and continue to plow for, they told us it was a flat out lie and to not fall for it - they knew they had the sites and to just keep on as before (which we did). What kind of contract did you have if corporate was still coming back with counter offers and terms? I am sure there is more than I care to know, and I NEVER had this happen with any other maintenance company, but, what's done is done, all I can do is move on an learn from it - and give you input so we all don't have this happen again. I am sure there are many people on this site that feel the same or had a similar experience. I am trying my best to not just be flat our combative, please bear with me if it sounds that way - I do want you to understand our point of view if that is what one of your main goals is. I have kept quiet up to this point but I can't just sit and not share my experience thus far anymore. Sorry, this may be a long manifesto! I held this in for a year.

I guess what I didn't care for at the time was all of the paperwork asked of us that was given to us on a Friday afternoon and needed to be in by the next day, as we had to first go through the plethora of setup work from you - we had to have our insurance agents stay late, bidders go out and measure, etc. - if your deal was falling apart and shortly after dismissed, then I have a problem with the urgency of it all as is the case with a lot of your bids we got, but this was over the top. It would have been fine to at least give us until Monday if still in negotiations anyway. Mike went as far as to say he wanted to come and visit our site and we had a lot of optimism about the infamous Sheetz as well, yet you are the first one to admit most of your bids are too high and go nowhere and can't help feel it was to just sell us into filling a void in paperwork you needed.

All we have thus far a year later is a whole bunch of bids you ask for, no work, no visits, and no gain anywhere on horizon. I find it a bit curious that you now are sort of putting the "blame" back on us for bidding too high with your reply above. I also find it interesting of how you present the "bidding opportunities" via email until someone catches on and realizes its pure fishing and or doing the homework for you to put your bid in the majority of the time. If you want input from the field, that is my two cents. I have no problem with bidding and setup work, however, I really don't know what you ultimately are presenting to corporate and how you are coming up with your numbers, and that is your business. But since I am asked for bids IN YOUR neck of the woods, why- if you are doing the same work as me, would you not award yourself the contract? So why give me an illusion I have a shot at it or just be real I am helping you collect data? And if you really want to be on our side of things, how about not just going by numbers and having a bit of loyalty - don't ask me for numbers waaayy out of my area, that just spells out to me it's just to add to your formula (and just give naive bidders the impression they have a shot at these sites).

Again, I know you have to play the game; I just am having a hard time swallowing the poetic story of how you are so different. You are different, you constantly ask us for bids and don't give us work, I can say I have never run into it before. Fool me once shame on you……. you get the picture. I am so happy for all of you who do get work and can deal with them, however, I think there are just as many that are my side of the fence. If we want to put it all out there, I have heard enough and I want to keep you in the know on my side. Please back me up contractors so Rich gets what I am trying to convey.

Overall I can't help but feel we were duped with a lot of slick talk and promises that have yet to reap any benefits, and the influx of bid requests is a bit excessive in my inbox (most of which are in your neck of the woods, not mine or out of state). And as for D.G, when it all fell apart, your company was silent all of the sudden and we got a form letter saying someone goofed -yet beforehand, we got call after call and it was such a big hurry to fulfill all of your paperwork and then crickets. A phone call or at least a return phone call from someone in this case would have been appreciated and ethical. I missed a vacation and paid my staff overtime to put this in place, we also turned down another opportunity because we were told we had all of these sites to cover in area & didn't want to over commit. So, no, I am not crying because I don't like bidding, it's my job, but I am still furious to see you trying to come in as our savior when you are just putting a different spin on things like the nationals. At least they HAVE the sites they want to beat me down on!!!! P.S. The D.G. terms/pricing you gave us were not that great either, so not sure why you keep trying to say you are so different form nationals if corporate has so much dictate of what is going on???? And from what you are saying, AFTER contracts are awarded!

Yet we have to just sit and be a puppet and try not to be upset about it when our gut is telling us we are just being used. The face of this business is taking a really scary turn, I hope everyone out there who has a hope it will all cycle back or change in our favor is right, but in the meantime I have employees and equipment I need to keep going or I won't be around to see it. If I had to rely on pinning my hopes on companies who bid like this, I would be looking for a job INSIDE one of these stores, not out. But, I will adapt and move on, but I must say my peace as far as my experience after seeing some things I totally did not experience after your sales pitch. And your posts trying to say otherwish and double speaking or leaving out things. I have questions before I proceed in entertaining your emails, hopefully you can understand my vantage point.

As I said, it took everything in our power not to freak out last year, but we refrained in hopes at least some of the setup work would open all kinds of doors as Mike promised. So far all we get is fishing form sites in your backyard or far, far away from ours. So, I guess another one of my points is why keep asking for the SAME numbers from people all over the place? It gets old and I am sure fools people not in the know in thinking there is a good chance it will be awarded and at the price they gave! (which may or may not happen on occasion) And we were also told that if we worked with you, we would be sort of an "exclusive" partner in your area, so then why can I throw a bid in for an area across state? I should not even be a factor in it. As I see it, again, it's wasting a lot of people's time for the same sites over and over again. This time of year, our time is precious, I am sure that in being in the business you are fully aware of that. We take a lot of care with our bids and IT TAKES TIME to consider it all the proper way, and many of us have staff who we have to pay to do it, it not just throwing our hat in the wind with fingers crossed so to speak!!!!

We had one other fiasco happen last year with a company working with you, that wasted our time and caused a lot of turmoil because this "after the fact" dealing happened. I have been reading the posts and could not keep quiet anymore. I appreciate the concept of what you are saying your goals are, however, from the contractor's side -it's not been a pleasure. I can't help but cringe when you keep chiming in and trying to ride in on a white horse. I hate to be so blunt, but in over twenty years of being in the business, your firm will stand out as one of the biggest frustrations to date, and least fruitless. As I said earlier, all of your ideals sound very romantic, but the ACTIONS I have seen to date are less than admirable or fair in my dealings. I am glad you are at least showing your face on here to give us the opportunity to provide feedback, I see you got plenty of it positive and not. Lets learn from this and not turn this into a boxing match if you agree what happened was not fair to us, the contractors.

So I beg you, please be up front with us, I understand you are trying to build up your firm, I can appreciate that. But please don't use this forum as a sales pitch against the nationals and how your company is so much better, please try and see it from our standpoint and really make a difference. I can say with all honesty even if I did ever get a job awarded from you, it would not differ much from the "dreaded nationals". Just a horse of a different color. We have seen big and small come and go, I wish you all the best and truly hope you can make some changes for our favor, but please don't take advantage of us in the process or sell us a dream that really isn't so!!! Sorry so long but I had to spell it all out, from your reply you clearly are not seeing what a lot of us are feeling/experiencing. I would love to work with you and you did seem like nice people, but I NEED WORK, NOT EMPTY PROMISES!!!! I would never come on and bash someone for trying; however I see some discrepancies in your posts that I had to clarify. If the dealings did not come from your end, then you need to have a chat with your reps in how they are treating many of us, it's a lot of double talk and frankly, unfair. Best of luck to you, I would say no hard feelings but I would be lying after what we were put through and how it was handled after the fact.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Lily,

EXCELLENT POST!!!!


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

Thanks Mick, I bit my tongue for a couple of weeks but could not anymore. Hopefully it did not come across as campaign to attack but constructive input/inquiries for Rich (or any other maint. company reps for that matter) or food for thought to any newbies to biz.

But after getting another bid email request for Sheetz, which by the way was really vague in how exactly it was to be priced in excel sheet, I had to say it. I could not help in the way it was presented to us that is was just to get numbers and nothing else in seeing how unclear it was. The specs really were not helping that were attached and on the subjective side IMHO. And just to clarify, my posts refer to Mike F., not Mike N. from the firm. However we had contact last year with all parties.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

To Rich: Have you guys been awarded ANY of the bids that have been sent out in the last year? i submitted bids for many places and have never seen the contractors change one time. i really find it hard to believe that all those places were able to keep the same contractor with however many people bidding on them.

To Lily: i know exactly what you are saying about the bids. its like i said there is NO WAY i would bid that at a per push rate when it is left up to the 20something year old manger as to when the place will get plowed. i can see people losing their a$$ big time on that.


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## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Lily, you are absolutely right. next time a client wants to give us a bad contract I will certainly take it and make sure we award it to your company so this never happens again... however dont blame us when it goes bad for you....

It is simple to complain... if you wish to not bid anymore I will understand and please send an email to [email protected] asking to be taken off the bidders list. That will fix all your complaints.


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

*Again, missing my points*

Wow Rich,

That was an answer that once again pointed the finger back to us. Yet says NOTHING about all of our concerns and or "complaints" with your company. Had I written what I really wanted to say last year I would be thrown off the site. To me it was a blow off reply, and you were the one who came on here saying you were open and trying to HELP us all in this market and on our side/trying to be different. I really don't see how your reply assures us to continue to keep entertaining your bids that you keep saying typically go nowhere because they are too high or whatever.

Of course we do not want to enter into a bad contract, but I am sorry, DONT AWARD SOMETHING OUT LIKE YOU DID IF ITS NOT SOLID. You were the ones who put us into that situation, I didn't call you. I think that is the biggest problem we all have on here. If you are in the business as you say, you have to appreciate the predicament we were put in and what its like to be called up and think we landed a bunch of sites and then to get a form letter a couple of days later saying, ooops, someone goofed and should not have released the info internally. When we finally did speak to Mike, he told us about the terms changing and really was at a loss but assured us more work would come our way -just keep bidding, which we did, to no avail.

To review, what you just did was ignore all of my points I took time to write out of what made me angry/frustrated, and after reading your posts on here, confused. I wont go back and caption that it was YOU who said when questioned- that the ONLY bid retraction was Wachovia. Two bids that came close that I thought I actually had were retracted after awarded, totalling about 10 sites that really put a wrench in my bidding. I wont even make it worse and pull out all of my notes I always take when a maintenance company CALLS US! Your rep was the one that called us on a Friday afternoon, and YOU set a crazy pace for submitting all of your prequalification requirements, etc. - I think we got the letter & it fell apart only a day or two later. So, what was all of the urgency if the contract was not solid, as when questioned we were told over and over it was a done deal??? I would have hoped you could have at least took this info to Mike F. and explained to him to not put firms into this kind of predicament. It just sounds like much of its to fill a void off the cuff. Whatever the case, it was one fiasco I will not forget anytime soon. Sorry, two, the second that I won't get into almost cost us our bidder walking out on us. At least I learned something about these cold calls and to be wary of promises that our gut tell us is fishy. And I also question if you are not just awarding bids our to just anyone, how were we approved so quick? Again, the timeframe thing raises a lot of questions on my end. It has been mentioned before, not sure it got anywhere. You have deadlines and a business to run, however, if I treated my subs like you have us, I would have none. Take it for whats its worth, if you want input, there it is. If you want to give me a "well, if you don't like it just don't deal with us" reply, then don't proclaim you are so open to our side of the business!!!!

And all of us are just wondering about just how "exclusive" the bids are when such an influx is open over and over again for same sites. And bottom line, people are just wondering WHEN some kind of work will ever come their way if ever after doing so much homework for you guys. If you don't understand that frustration, that seems to be falling on deaf ears with you. And again, the putting the blame back on us is a bit insulting. When submitting a bid, it's your responsiblity in the end to represent us and try and get your subs the job, so this passing the blame onto us after something goes wrong to explain is kind of insulting to us on here who have been in the game, no matter how you spin it, a lot of empty promises are being sold. And when I can bid on a site all down the Eastern coast, how am I going to feel my numbers are not just to plug into a formula???You should know what is going to pass and what is not, so, I think people are wondering what exactly is going on when filling these numbers out in such a vague form over and over. And I think there are just as many who don't understand this and think they are going to get the job at what they are filling in. I honestly don't even know how you can compare apples to apples with the subjectiveness of it and volume of bids you seem to be sending out. Again, all very legit questions we have, I think after submitting numerous bids to you and then hearing nothing, I have a right to bring it to the table.

You are quick to jump on and post when you can say you are so different, all things considered in our company's case, your reply is not that professional. If you can read what my experiences were that I took the time to convey and or get answers to and give me this kind of shrug off, it adds insult to injury. If you wanted to take my points and are so "open" to being on our side, you would have asked me my email so you can discuss how you can avoid and learn from it in the future, NOT SHUT ME OUT OF BIDDING! I guess that was my apology, a door shut in my face. Oh well, to me it was a door that led nowhere anyway. Good luck Rich, you are going to need it if this is how you conduct your business.


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

I have no problem working for nationals as long as they pay.. that is the main thing right guys? 

doing a bunch of leg work is better than doing the work and not getting paid..


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

*I agree*

I have to agree, yet in my case in this instance, I would have to actually get a job first. My biggest problem is that I was awarded jobs and then had it yanked back soon after and the way the reps handled it all. And I just tried to point out some things I saw being said that I had to beg to differ with.

So, point taken. And I must add that much of the problems people may be having with nationals is on the clerical end of things. I suspect much of it may have to do with something not in line, as most of us know, the clerical end of things has become just as important as the actual work in field! Please factor this in when quoting guys! Something does not jive and it throws a bill out or leaves it open for a stuggle. And I won't even mention weather reports not backing up whats on ground! We live in a elevation nightmare for that. Of course I am sure there are exceptions to that rule, but in most cases, when not paid, it was over some sort of paper issue, never in field. And yes, there are some fly by night companies that just didn't want to pay, but in the bigger national's defense, we have not had that much bad luck overall. If your rep does not want to help you out, by all means try and find someone in company who can work with you! It may take months, but don't give up if confident all of your ducks are in a row. If you goofed on paperwork or billed out line with terms, you might not get paid 

And if you have a good relationship with store, does not hurt to have manager call in as well, they do have to perform on their end so it matters most of the time!


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## Weeded! (Nov 13, 2009)

Rich- Lily was pretty straight forward and professional in a post she clearly took some time to think about and write. She was looking for a dialog and instead you told her to hit the road rather than addressing questions that others of us have had and she asked.

You may want to reconsider your response. You are good to come on this site and engage, but your response was counterproductive.

Lilly- I will go as far as my computer to provide bids to nationals. The odds of getting the work just does not warrant the hours of driving and measuring. I am not sure where all the calls to insurance agents and others came from on just a bid.


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

*Thanks once more*

Thanks again, the posts in regard to mine that I put a lot thought into to so far reassure me I was not wrong or out of line with my tone. I didn't come here to attack, and I can fully understand his side of the biz, I don't have the time to sit and waste time, but I finally go the chance to at least make sure what I went through was not in vain. You coming on this site and saying you are trying to change things gave me hope you would use my comments and learn. I just could not sit any longer and watch people be double talked to or not let in on the whole scope of what is going on, as I feel I was downright mislead. So I appreciate it Weeded. Had I just wanted to complain, or be "simple" as Rich replied, I would have just gone on when Rich first introduced himself and left a few lines to curse him and his associates. I went as far to do a search and read ALL of his posts before composing mine. He is the resason I went from just a casual observer to forum to actually signing up and posting, but I sat and gave him a chance first. As I said, I gave it a year to say what I wanted to say and by him coming on the site, he opened himself up to it. I am really amazed if he is trying to gain new contacts and subs and get input from the field, he would at least made an attempt to try and give us some sort of hope we are not just a means to an end for them to get bigger, LIKE A NATIONAL.

I can't help but feel that over and over it was said he was here to show his face and was on our side, trying not to be like a national, and addess our concerns. His reply did nothing of the sort, and the white horse he is trying to ride in on turned to one of a different color with a reply like that. Again, why even engage in a discussion and take time to speak for a lot of us on here if all I get back is an elementary reply that didn't give anyone resolve. I at least hope it gave some of you food for thought or put to paper what you have experienced and or suspected.

And to clarify, the insurance and the running around was to do the initial setup to be a sub for them, as it was a cold call from one of their guys that kind of threw us for a loop as we never dealt or heard of them before. I had to fill it out and becuase everything had to be done pretty much yesterday - we did it as they were leading us to believe they took over ALL of the D.G.'s in our area. Even ones we were already awarded by the guy we still work for?? So we were dealing with some volume here, and had we just scoffed at it, we put ourselves at risk to lose a number of sites we have done for ten years or more. It was a pretty stressful call to get. That was a risk we thought was worth taking never anticipating what was to follow. There was call after call pushing us for all of this paperwork and figures, etc. that was so important it be in the next day. Something just did not feel right which is why I kept telling my guys before they went out and started process to make sure its a lock as we needed to be sure we could fit all of the sites they wanted us to do in our schedule. So it was not just a case of throwing in a number, we were told we had the sites if we wanted and they were awarding them to us. That was just one issue I have had, trust me, I have no problems with finding a way to work with most maintenance companies that have come our way, and many of them being lucrative. Again, I hope what I said spoke to some of you - and didn't seem like I am just bellyaching, even though it was brushed off by Rich that way and talked to like I was 6 year old. You asked for it and opened to door, now you pretty much are slamming it on anyone who brings valid discussions and or asking you questions A LOT of us have with your reply. You brought us into this, so its my right to give feedback. If you want us all to work with you, then your replies to this thread kind of suprise and disappoint me.


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## kramer56 (Oct 13, 2006)

Are these dollar generals only in Pa or in NY as well?


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

What you are describing is nothing new. We had a 3 year contract signed at one location and was in the process of buying specific equipment for it when the board changed there mind and went with a company they had done business with before. What can you do? Sure you have a contract but do you really want to try and push your way into work with someone that doesnt want you. It sounds like someone made a call and said your bids look good and we'll send the paperwork over. Then when it gets over there of course the key part is changed(salting included) and now Rich has egg on his face because of untruthful bid contacts.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Italiano67;1068156 said:


> What you are describing is nothing new. We had a 3 year contract signed at one location and was in the process of buying specific equipment for it when the board changed there mind and went with a company they had done business with before. What can you do? Sure you have a contract but do you really want to try and push your way into work with someone that doesnt want you. It sounds like someone made a call and said your bids look good and we'll send the paperwork over. Then when it gets over there of course the key part is changed(salting included) and now Rich has egg on his face because of untruthful bid contacts.


X2, i don't think Rich inteaded to put anyone out, lets be honest, even after contracts are signed, there are lawyers and loopholes that well get anyone out of a "iron clad" contract


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

Italiano, not really following what you are saying and it does not really sound like what my problem/experience was. This was a not a contract awarded on a small scale, and it had to do with a larger maintenance company supposedly being awarded a contract (by corporate) and then retracting it across the board to several contractors AFTER awarding it. We were told they had secured most if not all the sites in our part of state and they cold called us to sub work out and put a mad rush to get all of this paperwork. After being told the contracts were locked down, they sent a form letter out and the phone went pretty much dead shortly after awarding the sites out. The part that it fell apart really had nothing to do with me or my terms or bidding (I had nothing to do with it and on some of the sites just proceeded to work for the maintenance company I always did), my problem mainly was how it was sold to me and handled after the fact and we were mislead. Hope that clears it up for you. I know this is nothing new, that is why I asked Rich if he really wanted to make a change, to take our comments and learn from what I had gone through.


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## Deershack (Feb 19, 2009)

For what it's worth, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm too small to be of interest to a "national", I don't plow (sand/salt only) and I don't think that Rich has any presence in my area.

That being said, I have followed this thread, as well as the other's regarding "nationals" with interest. Who knows, someday I might qualify for a contact. When I first read Rich's original post, I thought here is someone who is trying to bridge the gap between the various parties in the industry. Apparently many others had the same thought since many of the posts were positive. Rich's posts seemed to be what many were looking for.

Rich: the luster seems to have worn off your presence here. Some of that is to be expected since it's not reasonable to be expected to please everyone. However your recent posts not only don't address the questions/concerns raised but go further and seem to attack the messenger or at least dismiss them. From your previous posts, I had expected better of you, to the extent that if you were doing business in my area, I would have looked very seriously at any proposal you might have presented.

I will continue to watch the threads and hopefully find that my original favorable impressions were not misplaced.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

The moral of both our stories are the same though the details are different. You are crying over your lost time and effort over a bid that in the end you did not get. You are PO'd at Rich because in your mind he was toying with you and wasting your time. Look farther up the ladder for whose fault it was . And in the end it is always about somebody being cheaper. Somebody signed the contract with the salting included. Get the picture?


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

Italiano, if you read all my posts you see its much more about "crying" about doing paperwork and not getting a bid, so it IS a bit more involved and differs from your situation and has much more to do with that situation or bidding and not getting work. Every situation is different and can even be working under the same company. This was a cold call awarding us the sites, as is a common practice with many maintenance companies. I ended up doing work for the stores for the most part anyway with another firm with the same terms I aways had, so that is why I am curious about the way the work is being awarded out by Rich and or being represented by his reps. So really you are not grasping the whole dialog here. I am not saying in any way it was Rich's objective to back out of the contract with corporate, as he lost in the deal too. And yes, there are legal loopholes and ways to sever ties before work begins. Points agreed. It probably did have much to do with Dollar General not playing fair, they seem hard to deal with. If you go back, I am questioning things I found to be handled poorly and things many of us on here have been mislead on in dealing with his firm overall. And things he has posted about that I am kind of confused by. His reply today did not give me any confidence he meant what he said that he was open and here to help us.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

I hear you and can sympathize because we all are in a giant shell game with either the maintenance companies or the actual accounts. Nothing is for sure until it snows and you plow AND you get paid. My motto is always be careful on how you spend your money so you never have to have a certain account or need a big number for breaking even.That is the only way we wont be under any individuals thumb. When you want the work and not need it.


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

I can appreciate that! It is getting harder and harder to keep track of who belongs to who anymore. And even AFTER you start a site, we typically have a couple of places where someone else shows up to do the same account after someone speaks out of turn and tells them they have a bid (or he just thinks if he shows up they have to keep him?) Then we have to tell management to break it to them they don't have it. We have to laugh because there is a guy in our area that pulls this trick all the time, he also likes to call up nationals and disguise himself (since he has been so bad to work with) and try to regain sites and or get a rep to give him accounts out of pity since he "started" already. Too funny to watch and wait to see where he tries it.


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## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Lily, I am not trying to shut you down... I just need everyone to realize that you can say NO... I have put my phone number on here many times and yet no one has called to talk to me... I am not very computer savvy and do much better on the phone or face to face... I understand all your concerns... Wachovia told us to bid it then some higher up at Wells Fargo stopped it. I can not help that... as for the DG that was FM doing us wrong... then in turn it was a bad deal for the contractors so after we went through the conference call for vendors and we found out what the terms truely were we said no.... and did not sign the contract that they had awarded.... so maybe the staff got out awards faster than they should of... I apologize for that ... however it is just that people dont have the full story whethey post...but agian if you wish to truely discuss this matter again my number is 814 490 4700


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Lily;1067653 said:


> I would love to work with you and you did seem like nice people, but I NEED WORK, NOT EMPTY PROMISES!!!!


Then lower your prices so you can get the bid or go out and find your own contracts rather then depend on a management company to bid. If you think they are using you to target price marks for their own removal operations stop bidding their work. Businesses do this all the time, bid work to outside contractors to see if they can get it done cheaper then they can do it in house. Obviously someone else felt they could do it for less, whether it was the end customer, another management company working on tighter percentages, Rich himself or some 15 year old girl from South Beach who has a better pencil sharpener.


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

*Thanks for apology, I guess?*

Rich,

Thanks for replying. I know it takes guts to be on here. I really didn't mean for this to be a pile on Rich thread, which is why I took time to compose a post that was well thought out and not do so when you first came on forum. I can't say you did the same for me.

However, once again, I can't help but feel that your last line about not knowing story before we post was again a backhanded dig against us and really surprised by it. And I don't know how other to take what you posted yesterday as a shut out, not only to me but to anyone on here and trying to make our concerns "simple" as you said. So, I don't necessarily know if its that you are not that computer savvy, you got on here and have been posting, _but_ not so sure if aware of what you are saying when posting and that people are going to go back and read old posts and gather what they will, as its their business and well being depending on it at times. We are all on here because we are passionate about it and some of us have been in the business as long as you or longer, so, we can only know and or gain knowlege from what you are letting us in on (which in turn is what this forum is for, open dialog). If you are saying you are on our side and here to address our concerns, please don't make it seem like we are just posting on here for fun or because we want to see you fail or argue. We DO want you to back up what you originally said when you came on here, work with us and be up front and inform us. And as you see with other posts, many of us on here do want to hold you to what you are saying is your goal, to change things and be up front FOR us as we are tired of being beat down by this game that the industry has turned into. I can't help but feel many on here saw that as a small glimmer of hope, yet what has come out in this thread kind of dims it so to speak. Please just don't use this as a sales pitch for you vs. the nationals.

And in reading your reply today, I still stand my ground that my questions as was others were not "simple" to complain about, if anything even more valid if in fact you guys were still in negotiation and contract was still being hashed out in reality. Had you told us that when we asked you up and down, this all could have been avoided and we would have said no or at least asked for the deadlines to be a little more reasonable. I fully realize that is our right to say no, but Rich, please put yourself into our shoes on here. Its so hard to weed out what is legit and what is not anymore, we are put into a giant pot and stirred around and sometimes we get picked, sometimes we just stay in pot and get burned. Or yes, we can choose not to jump in the pot at all (but really where would that get us?) That is a fact I have come to accept, however, I would not be doing my job if I just accepted and or took someone's word for it when the actions tell me otherwise. We too are business owners, and the maintenance companies (and corporate) have to realize people's blood, sweat and tears is on line here, and be accountable for some of their actions, if only to be questioned like we have been doing on here. I think we at least deserve that.

As far as the D.G.'s, I think I kind of did have a grasp of what happened if what you now say is true. Someone internally awarded out bids too quickly, and you had to retract them after the contract dealings fell apart. Keep in mind _you_ just said this, and thanks for finally doing so on here. I don't want to be accused of not knowing what the story is. And that is fine, I appreciate you admitting that and what can I do, that is your business. But your reps in turn made it MY business when handling the situation like they did and cold calling me and pressuring me. Again, yes, I could have said no. But when someone calls you up out of the blue and tells you they have taken over many of your accounts and they are _awarding_ them to you, what would you do? However, it raises even more concerns of continuing to put bids in for you guys in seeing how it all was presented to us, and probably for many on this site. I won't go into the whole red flag of what you just said and awarding bids too quickly, that is a bit scary. And knowing this now, your reply to me yesterday is ever more disappointing. And stild did not address much of what was asked really....

So, what I learned from it all I can take and move on, and at least I I hope I gave some people food for thought. I can't say if Rich has learned anything or not. As far as calling you, I can't help but feel you showed us your true feelings yesterday and it is a bit of backpeddling after seeing the reaction. Too little too late, I took the time to say what I wanted to say this entire weekend only to still be shrugged off so to speak and not really get any answers for anyone on here. So, if someone has a burning desire to hear what Rich has to say, please call him. I have to go back to bidding and prepping for season. And just to clarify Basher, I would be out of business or reverting back to where I was was when I first started if I followed your advice, thanks for the input but I will do what I gotta do to stay in the game. Thanks for support guys, I tried!


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

It sounds to me like Rich is getting blasted for being honest.

Stuff happens.

I think he explained very well his system. He gets a RFP from the property. He sends out RFPs to contractors to bid on the property. Then takes the bids, adds his fee and submits it. Then its out of his hands. If they decide to go with AGMG then he can award it to the contractor as well. If they dont go with him. They dont go with you either.

There are a lot of factors involved in that.

Ive been told many times that I have a job. And at the last second it cancels, or they decide at the last second to go with someone else. Until the contract is in hand I dont believe a verbal.

Heres one better.

I had a 4 year contract for a property. I used a sub and it worked out great.
2 years left on that contract the sub, who I told him, I would use him for the remaining 2 years went out and bought a new skidsteer and new truck to service the account.
He goes to delivers the machine at the same time I invoice the property and give him his first payment in advance of me getting paid.

2 days later I get a call...."Why is there a skidsteer here and whats this invoice for?"
HUH? Well DUH!!!!!!! I said, look at the contract, there is 2 years left.

She replied. "I thought you said you didnt want to do the snow anymore, we hired someone else"
I said "Wait. There was never anything in writing, no cancellation, nothing. You THOUGHT I may have said something and you think thats a contract cancel?"
Her reply. "Well here is your notice of cancellation"

There it was. What the heck could I do?

You should have heard the phone call when I had to inform the contractor of that. The one who had ALL his eggs in MY basket. Who just committed to making payments he could not afford without this job.
I just had to man up and tell him honestly what happened. I got screwed. He ended up getting screwed as a result, but his anger is at me.
If you hear him run his mouth around town you would think I was Bernie Madoff.

"HE DIDNT EVEN HAVE A CONTRACT WITH THEM!!!"
"HE PROMISED ME 2 YEARS"
"I BOUGHT ALL THIS EQUIPMENT"
"JOE SCREWED ME OUT OF THE MONEY"
"JOE WONT PAY ME"

Do you think I didnt lose a lot of money losing that job? I had the contract. I had no reason in the world to think it would be canceled.
A secretary makes a mistake and costs me and my sub thousands of dollars in an instant. Yet, DONT TRUST JOE, HE SCREWS PEOPLE.

I do sub contract line striping for a couple of road companies.

ALL I DO is go out, measure, bid, take all this time chasing leads. MOST of the time, they submit the bid and dont get the job.
Sometimes they get the job, and the striping is cut out of it.
Sometimes they get the job and it cancels.
Sometimes they get the job, and have to give the striping to another company thats a lot cheaper than I am.

Its all part of the game.

I have management companies that I refuse to work for because I KNOW they only use me for the "third bid". I KNOW they use another company for all their work, but need to get the standard bids to satisfy the board.
I know the other company has the job before I even look at it. So I dont bother with them. Those people I really have a problem with. They are flat out being underhanded.

If Rich were actually getting these jobs, and then NOT giving them to you. Or if he were getting the jobs and then doing them himself......Then I could understand being pizzed.
HE'S not making any money either. 
I just dont see where he is out trying to deceive anyone.
Do you think he has nothing better to do than push all this paperwork for fun?
HES TRYING TO GET THE WORK.

Would you rather he do it like the other "nationals"
Get the work at any cost and then call and shove some lowball number down your throat?
You see from my other threads here that I dont like nationals myself. I think the system stinks for contractors and I wont work for them.
Rich on the other hand I dont think should be grouped into the same mold. Yes, he is a national. But I dont see him trying to squeeze the life out of contractors for massive profits for himself.

Not every single venture in business is successful.

You show me where Rich is out there taking advantage or screwing someone for his personal gain, and Ill jump right on the bandwagon flaming him off the board.

I just dont see it.


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Very well put Procut! Thats exactaly what I wanted to say, but didn't want to spend all day typing it. 

Bossman


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## Weeded! (Nov 13, 2009)

Procut1, 
Maybe I read it differently.
Lily is upset by the things she was told that were apparently not true.
In your story, you are quite clear about what happened and, I am guessing, you laid it all out for your sub. 

It seems Lily was/is not clear on WHY things happened the way they did, and she was looking for an explanation from Rich, which he declined to provide, although several others on this site offered suggestions to.

Again, I would not have put that much effort as she did into the same bid, but I'm not in her shoes.

I think the issue is that if AGMG or any national want to be a PARTNER with me (or Lilly, or you), then open up, be forthright, be honest about the numbers and what is happening. Not a comment on AGMG, just in general (works with our vendors and clients as well IMO).


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

These are all good points but man! is it giving me a headache! I see every ones point, believe me! But how much of a % are these "national" accounts in your whole night of plowing. These guys aren't interested in Mom&POP drug stores, or Moe's gas station or the 3-5 local chain stores, etc. I'll be honest, we got a call from some construction company asking us to put together a bid for a Barns and Noble, ok great send us the packet. "Oh by the way its due tomorrow"......I said "yeah thanks but no thanks". They faxed over 12 pages of stupid non-sense any ways, asking how far is it from your house to your shop, on and on. She called back and I just respectfully declined. Looking back over all the posts I believe this could have happen to any one, hell we were told by a condo president and the treasure, standing there together in March that we had the bid for at least another year at this place only to hear from him IN APRIL that they went with some one else for all their work. I think what Rich has been saying for awhile is true....If you want to stay in you have to learn to play the game.

Do I think we need national companies, hell no! but do the big box stores think we do....I think that apparent, so do I want to work with them and keep getting work, hell yes, so I'll play "the game" and if it isn't meant to be than its not meant to be. Like I said before I must be very fortunate to work with the company I work for. This whole Lowe's, Walmart, Target thing has just about drove me nuckinfuts with number's, I finally figured some good number's and said here it is and I'm done with worrying about it.


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

That's why I hate sub-contracting Procut


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## Buck331 (Aug 19, 2010)

Successful Business Professionals adjust quickly to adverse events...

I do not believe I am as experienced as many on this site, but I am in charge of a business by my own choice. Am I correct in saying that things usually do not go according to the plan, and that one must on occasion stop, think, ask questions, and deal with "Adverse Events" ?

Rich clearly offered his phone number and indicated he would be glad to speak either in person or via telephone. That's a very professional and considerate response!

MEDIATION:
Mediation can function not only as a tool for dispute resolution but also as a means of dispute prevention. Mediation can be used to facilitate the process of contract negotiation by the identification of mutual interests and the promotion of effective communication between the two parties.

REASON (argument):
In informal reasoning, two types of reasons exist. An evidential reason is a foundation upon which to believe that or why a claim is true. An explanatory reason attempts to convince you how something is or could be true, but does not directly convince you that it is true.

In contrast to reason as an abstract noun, a reason is a consideration which explains or justifies. Experts often distinguish explanatory reasons from normative or justifying reasons.

Explanatory reasons are considerations which serve to explain why things have happened—they are reasons why events occur, or why states of affairs are the way they are. In other words, "reason" can also be a synonym for "cause". For example, a reason why a car starts is that its ignition is turned. In the context of explaining the actions of beings who act for reasons (i.e., rational agents), these are called motivating reasons—e.g., the reason why Bill went to college was to learn; i.e., that he or she would learn was his motivating reason. At least where a rational agent is acting rationally, his or her motivating reasons are those considerations which he or she believes count in favor of him or her so acting.

Normative reasons, on the other hand, are often said to be "considerations which count in favor" of some state of affairs (this is, at any rate, a common view). Some experts view these as the same as "explanations of ought facts". Just as explanatory reasons explain why some descriptive fact obtains (or came to obtain), normative reasons on this view explain why some normative facts obtain, i.e., they explain why some state of affairs ought to come to obtain (e.g., why someone should act or why some event ought to take place).

True Story - Adverse event: 
30 years ago one of my best friends and former partner was patrolling a remote campground area (employed as a deputy sheriff). Sometime around 2:00am he came across a parked subaru wagon blocking a boat landing access. Being a good deputy he exited his squad and aproached the vehicle on foot only to observe some wacked-out tree hugger engaged in an act of oral sex with his male dog. Well my big tough buddy couldn't really think too fast but had to do something. He quickly turned on his flashlight, pointed it at the guy and hollered, "HEY YOU..., DEPUTY SHERIFF..., IS THAT YOUR DOG!"

When I showed up for work Monday morning there was my buddy learning how to spell the word "Bestiality". Yup..., The Sheriff himself was his teacher! My buddy was instructed to go on canoe patrol and make an arrest for B-E-S-T-I-A-L-I-T-Y..., that new word he learned.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Buck331;1068765 said:


> Successful Business Professionals adjust quickly to adverse events...
> 
> I do not believe I am as experienced as many on this site, but I am in charge of a business by my own choice. Am I correct in saying that things usually do not go according to the plan, and that one must on occasion stop, think, ask questions, and deal with "Adverse Events" ?
> 
> ...


So it was the sheriff having sex with his dog?


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Jesus this thread reminds me of a bunch of two-year olds argueing over the internet. Valid points or not.


To the original subject, and poster...I too have just received the Sheetz contractor packet this morning.

The stipulations are pretty stringent, but workable.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

clark lawn;1067072 said:


> i just got a bid pack for sheetz the first thing is says is the plowing is up to the store manager. they want a set price per plow but how can i do that if the manger gets to say when it get done. what if they wait until it is been driven on and packed down and then we get more snow on it. i can see it now with some young manager trying to get a bigger bonus by holding off on the plowing.
> 
> only way i would even think about bidding it is by the hour, what would you guys do?


Sheetz extended their bid deadline to Sept 24th. FYI.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

subscribing


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## Weeded! (Nov 13, 2009)

I let them know that i would be unable to provide a quote given the way the manager is supposed to call for service at their discretion and I would not know if there would be 2 inches or 12 inches, ice melt or no ice melt.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Weeded!;1078479 said:


> I let them know that i would be unable to provide a quote given the way the manager is supposed to call for service at their discretion and I would not know if there would be 2 inches or 12 inches, ice melt or no ice melt.


Perhaps that would be something you'd ask them when they call you? :shruggs:


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

underESTIMATED;1078481 said:


> Perhaps that would be something you'd ask them when they call you? :shruggs:


What he means is how can he quote the job when he doesnt know the job requirements.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Italiano67;1078733 said:


> What he means is how can he quote the job when he doesnt know the job requirements.


Assume 12'+. (yes, that's feet)

Anything less, he's making bank. :laughing:


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Anyone get a call/email back yet?


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

My favorite aspect of forums is how anyone and everyone can make up any username they want and come on here and spew out any story their minds can think up.

I see a disturbing trend with these national management companies and am truly disappointed when I see fellow contractors bending over backwards to try and snag any bit of work being dangled in front of them by these companies.

A word of caution to any management company that may want to send any rfp's my way, I refuse to be a foot soldier for a "middle man" in an industry he/she knows absolutely nothing about. I think all the contractors on here should take a few business classes, that way we may all be a bit smarter for it and refuse to let greedy corporations take advantage of our long hours and forsaken holidays so they can get a cut.


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## lbfmd (Dec 26, 2008)

did any of you recieve prices from them regarding some stores they wanted covered? 
can we say holy low prices!!


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

lbfmd;1111632 said:


> did any of you recieve prices from them regarding some stores they wanted covered?
> can we say holy low prices!!


Nope, still "waiting" for my "letter" of outbid.


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## lbfmd (Dec 26, 2008)

$50.00 to plow ( average lot 40,000 sq feet could be 4' of snow or 12")
$60 for salting
$20.00 shovel ( some sites have 200 linear feet of walkway)
$15.00 to salt walks

I i dont know but to me they seem real low.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

clark lawn;1067072 said:


> i just got a bid pack for sheetz the first thing is says is the plowing is up to the store manager. they want a set price per plow but how can i do that if the manger gets to say when it get done. what if they wait until it is been driven on and packed down and then we get more snow on it. i can see it now with some young manager trying to get a bigger bonus by holding off on the plowing.
> 
> only way i would even think about bidding it is by the hour, what would you guys do?


All you do is define per plow to be 2 inches of fallen snow . Since by that time most of the lot will pe packed to ice you charge by the bag to salt it . Since the plowing is up to the store manager hand them a hold harmless agreement .


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

lbfmd;1111702 said:


> $50.00 to plow ( average lot 40,000 sq feet could be 4' of snow or 12")
> $60 for salting
> $20.00 shovel ( some sites have 200 linear feet of walkway)
> $15.00 to salt walks
> ...


How'd you find that out, was this listed in your rejection letter?

My closest Sheetz that I bid was approx 61k sq ft, and I went a little lower than we would have liked at $244/push + salt. But it's .3 of a mile from our shop.

When I called back to find out status from Sheetz, they said we weren't even in the top 5 of bids for that store. tymusic


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