# Drive way rig options......



## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Ok guys i have around 100 drives all within a 5 mile radius i need to plow. None are real big, if anything they are on the small side. Plenty of places to put snow, most are real tight though and become a pain to jockey around in with a full size truck and plow.

Im looking for a better option and this is where im drawing a blank.

option 1- box truck with blower and a ditchwitch zahn (already own) No plow on the truck though, all work will be done with the zahn. This thing is the cats a$$ on a 4" minus snow fall but ive never used it on anything over that. im worried it wont be enough. The zahn has a 4' blade with 1' optional wings on both sides.

option 2- Canyon set up with a 7'6" straight blade. Bed with ramps to unload a snowblower and a ditch witch zahn with a blade.

option 3- John deere 4520 with a 8'2" v on the front and some sort of blower on the back for when i need to get rid of the snow. This machine would have to road itself at 15mph, wouldn't be a big deal because it would never go more than a mile with out stopping.

http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=5817820

what do you guys think? what sounds good?


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## capitalsnow (Mar 14, 2010)

newhere;1097936 said:


> Ok guys i have around 100 drives all within a 5 mile radius i need to plow. None are real big, if anything they are on the small side. Plenty of places to put snow, most are real tight though and become a pain to jockey around in with a full size truck and plow.
> 
> Im looking for a better option and this is where im drawing a blank.
> 
> ...


 Option 3, but if you dont mind me asking, why such a small tractor? get a 6000series slap a inverted blower on it and you will make short work of those laneways


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## proscaper (Oct 27, 2010)

Option 3 looks pretty sweet to me. Especially with a cab and heater!!!

On bigger snows if you needed to run two machines you could also consider a blower for the ditchwitch, we have a MT55 with a rotary broom for the light snows and a blower for the bigger ones that clears walks in one pass very efficiently, VERY cold however


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

but option 3 also is the most expensive :crying:

i dont want a bigger tractor because i want something small and extremely maneuverable. Not to mention people always have a fear of big equipment on their drive.


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## motoxguy (Oct 17, 2010)

I like the option 3 if you have that money to spend or have you ever thought of a tool cat?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I think you gotta tell us more about these 100 drives. Condos, private homes, town homes, how wide or long? How many together before you drive to the next area?

I'm already thinking 2-speed skidsteer, but need to know more.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

ohhh crap that was my other option was to get a toolcat or a gator and put a little v-blade on it. But i would still need a box truck to haul it.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

whats the top speed on a cat c series skid? 

most drives are just in a normal residential subdivisions. most are 20' wide and anywhere from 60' to 150' feet long. The majority would be 90' long. A few have loops also.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

12mph on the 2spd skid.....not bad but not good.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I think you're gonna need 2 or 3 of whatever you decide on. 100 drives that big will take a while.


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## VIPHGM (Aug 10, 2010)

Option 4 - look do all the driveways your self in under 6 hours... if they are that close to each other... go spend the money on this its a sno knotrol rear mounted plow.... u back in its 8' wide with 2 4' fold out wings that you can adjust to the size of the driveway and pull out each driveway with 1 swipe, complete each driveway in under 2 mins tops even with bottom drive clean up, and have a cheap labor in the truck to run up the front walk way and do that as your pulling out the drive and tighting it up. the plow is about 6k but if your doing 100 plus around here your pulling atleast 30k this winter alone and you dont have a huge payroll from it.... i have been wanting one of these plows and i still might buy it this year


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

thats kinda why i was leaning towards the canyon and zahn comb pack. I dont have any drives that are all alone. The smallest is groups of three but never less. A few areas i have 15 in a row. The guys could split up and then get back together when its time to move out. And they could switch back and fourth every hour so one guy isnt freezing balls all night.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

yeah im at 450 seasonal rate per drive. All must pre pay in full to get that rate. 



well almost all the drives are side entry so that throws a little curve into that plan though.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

How abot a jeep wrangler with plow, small, tight turning, plenty of power.
Lots of us use them for driveways.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

its just a personal kinda thing but i think jeeps are for weekend warriors. Im not putting my name on the side of that kinda rig. I know that will chap your bum and i agree they do the job swell but it just doesnt look like a professional rig to me.


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## plowtime1 (Nov 1, 2007)

You may not think its very professional looking, but what other purposes are you using the JD or other after the season? Personally the jeeps we own have brought $$$$ with minimal investment.
I'm with plowmeister on this one


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

theplowmeister;1098030 said:


> How abot a jeep wrangler with plow, small, tight turning, plenty of power.
> Lots of us use them for driveways.


I deffinately say this is your best option also. I know a couple guys in town and they are absolutely perfect for this. I can see where your coming from on this one but honestly, its better than driving a small tractor all through town.. and hey, you can still be a weekend warrior on the off days  My father used to plow with an old jeep wrangler and LOVED it. He now plows with an F250 with a stainless steel x blade, and he misses plowing with the jeep, he says for residential driveways it was faster and easier than with his big truck.

I personally dont think that its unprofessional, being professional is knowing what is the best option and the best tool for the job.


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## salopez (Apr 11, 2004)

toolcats top speed stock is 18mph, but can be upped to 25... we have one with a sweeper, blade, and blower...very nice.


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## Toxic (Oct 16, 2007)

My choice would be the tractor with a blower on the back. Wouldn't even bother with a blade on the front . I can't understand why most guys on here talking about using a tractor for drives think they need a blade and a blower. Dragging the snow to the bottom of the drive then turning around to blow it away seems like a waste of time to me. If you got the blower just back in and blow it all away the first time and your done. That tractor could handle a 6-7ft blower without any trouble and that would clear most driveways in 3-4 passes. Done nice and clean, no big annoying piles and your off to the next one in about 2-3 minutes.try doing that with a blade.


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## DirtyJerzey (Dec 21, 2007)

skidsteer with a push/pull box would be your ultimate way. Pull into the driveway, flip the bucket forward and pull out the snow to bottom of the driveway then push it up and on the lawn.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

I would suggest a tractor with a blower. See if you can lease one for the winter, or rent one from a farmer. Blown dives are done much neater, with no piles of snow. Once people see the difference, you will most likely pick up more clients and still be able to handle them with the one tractor. JMO


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

I would go with option 2, and just put a small blower in the back if i were you (easy to toss in and out). I love my jimmy for plowing drives, it works great to get into those tight ones


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## Montosi82 (Dec 4, 2008)

If I am understanding your numbers here. You have 100 contracts at $450 a piece. Thats 45K for the season. I wouldn't worry about the cost, i'd worry about efficency. You need to make sure you keep those customers happy. If I was going to do that with one rig I would go with a tractor and rear mounted blower. Even if you spent 50K to get set up. you'll make that your first year(almost). then for the next 9 years your almost all profit, minus your other costs but that sounds pretty good to me.

Edit: i'm assuming that you could get 10 years out of that tractor and blower set up. Granted i'm sure there could be some costly fixes but there seems to be enough profit to cover any costs that you could run into.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

This is comical. Lets say it takes 5 min / drive, some will be more some less. That's a little over 8 Hrs. to complete the route! Without drive time BTW. That doesn't even take into account heavy snow or getting to probably half of the accounts after the city plows have plowed the street and left you over a foot of snow in the end of the drive. How the heck is he supposed to perform this miracle and keep everyone happy. Then if he picks up new accounts with a tractor and blower setup he can still do all those with the same tractor!? That many big drives is at least a 2 man operation. I also understood he was cleaning in front of the garage doors because he mentioned many were side entrance type. That's going to take even more time.

All the suggested methods will work, but some of the logic used to promote them is crazy, JMO!


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

WIPensFan;1098513 said:


> This is comical. Lets say it takes 5 min / drive, some will be more some less. That's a little over 8 Hrs. to complete the route! Without drive time BTW. That doesn't even take into account heavy snow or getting to probably half of the accounts after the city plows have plowed the street and left you over a foot of snow in the end of the drive. How the heck is he supposed to perform this miracle and keep everyone happy. Then if he picks up new accounts with a tractor and blower setup he can still do all those with the same tractor!? That many big drives is at least a 2 man operation. I also understood he was cleaning in front of the garage doors because he mentioned many were side entrance type. That's going to take even more time.
> 
> All the suggested methods will work, but some of the logic used to promote them is crazy, JMO!


Seriously READ the post
the drives are NOT big "if anything there on the small side"

All within 5 miles... what drive time?

And yes side entrance garages are fast and easy to plow. under 5 min.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

newhere;1098003 said:


> whats the top speed on a cat c series skid?
> 
> most drives are just in a normal residential subdivisions. most are 20' wide and anywhere from 60' to 150' feet long. The majority would be 90' long. A few have loops also.


That's not that small.



theplowmeister;1098543 said:


> Seriously READ the post
> the drives are NOT big "if anything there on the small side"
> 
> All within 5 miles... what drive time?
> ...


Did you READ the post?? Yes, he will still have drive time. 5 mile radius and he said they are in groupings of 3 or more. That means he must drive from group to group. DRIVE TIME!

Side entrance garages are easy sometimes and a ***** other times. Depends on the layout of the house and drive. If he has to clean in front of the doors, that's blower or shovel work no matter what. My guess is you leave that for the homeowner.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

A 90' drive seems rather small to me. A lot are less than that in the 30-40 range, very few are in the 150 range. With any option two guys will do the work. Even with a tractor and blower I will still send a second guy to ride shotgun and shovel. The drives are all in groups of 3-5 but the distance between the groups isn't very large. Most times no more than a couple hundred yards if that. The farthest ones we have to drive about 2 miles to the next town and we plow the street (with a different rig) and do a bunch of drives all in a row. I didn't want to get to deep into it all but the reason I was thinking about using a tractor with a blower and blade would be so I can use the blade to clear the streets and the blower for the drives. That would free up the truck to go and do other things. On top of that I do a commercial building in town that I have to clean out 25 truck bays and a few small lots. The tractor would do a better job backblading them than a truck would. I know you are all gona say that's way to much work for one machine. I agree it is a lot but I would do my commercial one first and that would take an hour and than I would do my street and than start in on the drives. For some reason I have a bunch of level headed customers and they all say just try to have it plowed by the time we get home from work, doesn't need to be done in the morning so put me on the end of the list. I do have one group of 30 I promised them they would be done by 8 (with weather exceptions). Money isn't going to allow 2 tractors. Worst case I get one tractor and the truck has to do the streets and the commercial lot then it pulls a little single axle trailer with the zahn to help do drives. The truck is a 4 door with a 10 foot bed and 9' straight so its a rather cumbersome driveway rig.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Would you guys mount the plow to the loader arms or to the frame of the tractor?

I would like to have the down pressure associated with mounting it to the arms but would rather have the very compact feature by mounting to the frame.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

How new are you to plowing and snow removal? I'm guessing new. No biggie, you'll learn what it takes soon enough. If you are in an area where you see a descent amount of snow you'll be overwhelmed. Good Luck. :salute:


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Nope not to new to snow plowing,been plowing for 7 years. I Have a hand full of trucks and a skid I sub out and than I always kept one truck for myself. I just have always hated doing drives with a full size and want a better way to do things.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

WIPensFan;1098513 said:


> This is comical. Lets say it takes 5 min / drive, some will be more some less. That's a little over 8 Hrs. to complete the route! Without drive time BTW. That doesn't even take into account heavy snow or getting to probably half of the accounts after the city plows have plowed the street and left you over a foot of snow in the end of the drive. How the heck is he supposed to perform this miracle and keep everyone happy. Then if he picks up new accounts with a tractor and blower setup he can still do all those with the same tractor!? That many big drives is at least a 2 man operation. I also understood he was cleaning in front of the garage doors because he mentioned many were side entrance type. That's going to take even more time.
> 
> All the suggested methods will work, but some of the logic used to promote them is crazy, JMO!


No whats comical is taking 5/min a drive with a tractor blower combo. If he gets himself a 85 hp tractor with an inverted blower he can easily do 25 drives an hour. Once he gets used to the machine he can easily bring that up to 30 drives/hr. So I see no problem in him adding clients that he is all ready driving by. He did mention that they were average size driveways. If they were really close together he could handle 50 an hour.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

inverted means i would be going in reverse to plow right? 

what model tractor would you recommend? do you use the ag/bar lug tires or a turf tire?


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

newhere;1098588 said:


> Would you guys mount the plow to the loader arms or to the frame of the tractor?
> 
> I would like to have the down pressure associated with mounting it to the arms but would rather have the very compact feature by mounting to the frame.


If you are going with down pressure, it will have to be with the loader arms. Also with loader arms you can stack your snow much higher. Mounting to the frame makes it more compact and very solid.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Im with Neige......Check out his Video...That guy is just cranking out the driveways...Quite Impressive...


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

yeah i figure mounting to the frame will be the same as plowing with a truck.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

I honestly see no way in h*** that all this is going to be done fast enough to please the customers.. With that route, like stated above, it will take 8 hours to complete at 5 minutes a driveway.. What if it is snowing two inches an hour? customers are going to have to deal with 16 inches of snow in their driveways 

If i were to get 100 driveways and plowed them like that, all but maybe 30 of them would drop me. My people complain if i do not have it plowed with every 3-4 inches of snow..

And if the commercial place and the road you were talking about were added to the beginning of the 8 hour grind, that would set you back even furhter. Not trying to be an ass or anything, i just think that is getting way out of hand for one peice of equipment. I would use at least two rigs for all that. Customer satisfaction is key. and honestly, If i were one of your customers i would be really angry if i had to wait that long for it all to be plowed. 

If you have a say, 3 inch trigger, so you start plowing at 3 inches for the first place and it snows 1-2 inches an hour, by the time you get to the last place they have over a foot of snow in their driveway..

I just cant see how this will work. If it does work out, let me know because I am very interested. Sorry to sound harsh, hard to display tone on the computer without sounding like an ass l:laughing:


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't plow resi's with an event. You get plowed once after its done period. NO ONE has ever questioned that. The hell if going to plow your drive 3 times during one storm when your only paying 450 bucks! No sir. If I have to plow more than 12 times in a year stay outa my way because I'm going to kill someone. 

Now my commercial one gets plowed with a snow and the streets get plowed with a snow.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

oh well that makes much more sense then, very easily attainable. I wish i could get customers like that. I have a couple that dont mind but i wish more would be like that


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

newhere;1098678 said:


> inverted means i would be going in reverse to plow right?
> 
> what model tractor would you recommend? do you use the ag/bar lug tires or a turf tire?


I think this video explains it all. I would go with at least 85 hp with the ag/bar lug tires.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

newhere;1098707 said:


> I don't plow resi's with an event. You get plowed once after its done period. NO ONE has ever questioned that. The hell if going to plow your drive 3 times during one storm when your only paying 450 bucks! No sir. If I have to plow more than 12 times in a year stay outa my way because I'm going to kill someone.
> 
> Now my commercial one gets plowed with a snow and the streets get plowed with a snow.


Thats unbelievable, we do our drives with the storm, and for lots less than that.


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## Toxic (Oct 16, 2007)

newhere;1098678 said:


> inverted means i would be going in reverse to plow right?
> 
> what model tractor would you recommend? do you use the ag/bar lug tires or a turf tire?


You got it except your blowing not plowing. Back in the driveway, drop the blower and throw the snow to whatever side is most accessible. Most drives would only need 2 passes and your done. 
I'm partial to Kubotas myself but deere or NH are good as well. I use turf tires on my 45hp kubota with a 6 ft normand blower and I've never had traction issues. But if I didn't use this tractor for finish mowing in the summer I would likely have gotten a snow tread radial, used them on a couple different machines and they worked really well.


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## Gary @ Shamrock (Nov 15, 2009)

God Bless you and your customers. 
There is not a 5-mile radius in New England where you can find 100 customers that are content to pay $450/year and only get plowed out after a storm is completed (or for that matter up to 8 hours plus the time it takes to do your commercial work after a storm is completed for the last customer). 
Where is your stated location of "Around Town?" Florida?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Neige;1098671 said:


> No whats comical is taking 5/min a drive with a tractor blower combo. If he gets himself a 85 hp tractor with an inverted blower he can easily do 25 drives an hour. Once he gets used to the machine he can easily bring that up to 30 drives/hr. So I see no problem in him adding clients that he is all ready driving by. He did mention that they were average size driveways. If they were really close together he could handle 50 an hour.


The JD4520 in his original post says 53HP? Now all the sudden he needs a 85+ HP tractor with inverted blower? How much will that cost, and what's he going to do with it in the other seasons?


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

How many times do you guys plow per season? That's insane to be working for peanuts with a 80k rig.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

That video is really nice. I love the setup that you have. But honestly, I would get incredibly sore after that all day. youre always backing up. after 20 mins id have the worst headache ever and by the time i was done plowing i would have a sore neck and back. I suppose it would be better if you could get a really good set of mirrors, but i noticed each time you back into a driveway, you turned your whole body to look behind you which would not work for me lol id be way too sore and im only 20 years old 
but overall, that seems like a very efficient way to clear a lot of driveways that are close to eachother


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

Don't know how I missed this one. 

When it comes to resi's in a compact area such as you describe listen to Neige. A tractor with the inverted blower would be the cat's meow IMO. What I have a hard time understanding is how can you wait until after the storm to take care of the customers? Waiting until there is 12" on the ground if you have a big event is going to take longer per drive regardless of the equipment you use. 

Where about's is Around Town located????


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I guess people in michigan are just a little more understanding.


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## VIPHGM (Aug 10, 2010)

http://snokontrol.com

I am telling you this is your fastest option for driveways and you can adjust the wings to fit anything and just back in and pull out


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

WIPensFan;1097986 said:


> I think you gotta tell us more about these 100 drives. Condos, private homes, town homes, how wide or long? How many together before you drive to the next area?
> 
> I'm already thinking 2-speed skidsteer, but need to know more.





WIPensFan;1098010 said:


> I think you're gonna need 2 or 3 of whatever you decide on. 100 drives that big will take a while.





WIPensFan;1098841 said:


> The JD4520 in his original post says 53HP? Now all the sudden he needs a 85+ HP tractor with inverted blower? How much will that cost, and what's he going to do with it in the other seasons?


I really don't know what you have against me. Yes the OP originally asked about a JD4520 and I offered a solution of one piece of equipment to do it all. Once you get out of the compact tractor line you can get some decent road speed, and a tractor that can handle alot of snow in short time. As far as what it will cost I offered a few suggestions, but assuming he is buying I would say around 70 grand. How much would 3 skidsteers with blowers cost? and don't forget the added cost of 3 operators. Not much you can do with the tractors in the summer. I rent 2 and store the 28 others. I had a good laugh when I punched in the OPs numbers and service level. I could cut back 40% of my equipment and be making $ 5,100.000.00 more a season. It would never fly in my market, but its fun to dream.


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)




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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Neige;1099242 said:


> I really don't know what you have against me. Yes the OP originally asked about a JD4520 and I offered a solution of one piece of equipment to do it all. Once you get out of the compact tractor line you can get some decent road speed, and a tractor that can handle alot of snow in short time. As far as what it will cost I offered a few suggestions, but assuming he is buying I would say around 70 grand. How much would 3 skidsteers with blowers cost? and don't forget the added cost of 3 operators. Not much you can do with the tractors in the summer. I rent 2 and store the 28 others. I had a good laugh when I punched in the OPs numbers and service level. I could cut back 40% of my equipment and be making $ 5,100.000.00 more a season. It would never fly in my market, but its fun to dream.


It will be interesting to see what he decides on. Nothing against you, just a good debate on different ideas.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

toby4492;1099297 said:


>


How about offering an idea?


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

WIPensFan;1099316 said:


> How about offering an idea?


UMMMM........................Post #46

My understanding is that all 100 drives are within a 5 mile radius of each other. The OP is also stating that these are not priority accounts and will be serviced after the storm has passed. In my post above I questioned him on that with a hypothetical snowstorm of 12". He didn't really respond other than said his customers have more patience than most apparently. The tractor that Paul has suggested certainly has enough ground speed to do the route efficiently and I can't question what has been successful for Paul either. He has built quite an organization and IMO has found a way to be very efficient in performing his services for his customers. If you ever get to meet him in person, which I have, you will understand pretty quickly that he is very knowlegeable with regard to this industry. To have somebody with his stature and expertise participate on the board here is a huge asset to all.

I have yet to see a better solution for the OP at this point than what Paul has suggested. Maybe the OP can tell us worst case scenario travel time between drives. I am going to guess that it isn't much.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

toby4492;1099319 said:


> UMMMM........................Post #46


I must have skipped right over that one, sorry. "Listen to Neige"...... "Listen to Neige"...... You're getting sleepy...... "Listen to Neige", and sleeeeep.


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

WIPensFan;1099321 said:


> I must have skipped right over that one, sorry. "Listen to Neige"...... "Listen to Neige"...... You're getting sleepy...... "Listen to Neige", and sleeeeep.


Easy there Sid. pumpkin: Hey I skip over many of your posts as well too :whistling:

What was your suggestion again...................oh yeah a 2 speed skid, maybe 2 or 3. What's that gonna cost to equip vs what Paul is suggesting, and which is going to be more efficient under worse case scenario conditions?


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## DaySpring Services (Feb 1, 2005)

Paul has helped me out quite a bit, definitely knows his stuff. I'm just about ready to get a Kubota M110 with a Shoule blower. I can say from experience that a Bobcat with a blower isn't exactly fast, just doesn't have the hp. I'll be getting the setup this year and giving it the winter to get use to it before I go crazy. Next season I'll hope to get 100 accounts. I'm taking a real gamble, hope it works out. I can see residential accounts being more profitable in my area if done properly.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Did a little searching around and found many nice used Bobcats( doesn't have to be Bobcat ) for sale with cab, heat, 2-speed and so on. One in particular 2005 S300 cab, heat, power bobtach, 2-sp with 1900 Hrs. for $24,000. Throw a plow on it for $2500 - $4500 or cheaper yet, a large snow bucket, and you're doing drives. Get two and you and a friend can be done with your entire route in 4-5hrs on an average snowfall. Pay your buddy $20-25/Hr and he or she should be happy. Insurance will cost you but that comes along with any other equipment as well. Plus you can use them for any number of other jobs. 

I believe you could do 2 machines for $40-65,000 depending on equipment type, # Hrs, and how each machine is outfitted.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Skids are a option but I just don't think they are fast enough. I wouldn't be getting a 1900 hour machine though. 500 or less.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

newhere;1099699 said:


> Skids are a option but I just don't think they are fast enough. I wouldn't be getting a 1900 hour machine though. 500 or less.[/QUOTE
> 
> Do you mean travel speed? It's not bad if all the accounts are close like you say. I understand on the hrs. 1900 isn't low but some machines are used harder than others. Sometimes they show it and sometimes they don't. S300 is a pretty heavy duty machine though, capable of much more than 1900 hrs. I also saw plenty of S185 2sp machines with under 500 hrs for $25-28,000. Those are pretty new machines. You could go cheaper without the 2sp option, because you don't need that for drives. It would of course affect travel from place to place.


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## gtstang462002 (Dec 23, 2009)

WIPensFan;1099821 said:


> newhere;1099699 said:
> 
> 
> > Skids are a option but I just don't think they are fast enough. I wouldn't be getting a 1900 hour machine though. 500 or less.
> ...


I have a T300 that has 3875 hours and still going strong...


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## iamhere (Jan 16, 2009)

What about going with option 3 but a diffrent series (i.e. the 3000 series vs. the 4000 series.) Not trying to sound like a Deere dealer (which I am NOT) here, the 3720 comes in at 44hp, a little smaller than the one you are looking at but should get the job done, plus instead of mounting a blade on the front you could run a snow blower up front and 3pt grader blade in back. That way you could pull everything to the front of the drive then grab the pile with the blower or something along those lines. 

If that isn't viable get the tractor and put a loader on it and use either the bucket or a blade mounted in place of the bucket and use it in combination with a 3pt mounted blower.


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## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

Some guys up here run 5740's with loader and inverted blower and do fine. Of course others have up to 100hp tractors for same resi work. 
I have some of everything that was suggested, tractors from 65-95 hp, toolcats,SS, jeeps, pick ups etc
Used 65hp tractor with 250 hrs and inverted blower for $25K.
Bigger tractor could have 2nd seat for shovel guy.
Bigger tractors can handle just about any depth of sbow with little effort.
Blowers do a cleaner, no pile or screwed up lawn type of job.
Toolcats have decent road road speed, 18 mph, can carry shoveler and can be equipped with blower in front and rear back blade. Decent used pricing. I recently bought an 08 5600, 400 hrs, with new blower and 6 month warr for $30k. Still have to build a rear box plow for it.
I vote for something with a blower. Once you get one you'll wonder why you ever used a truck.
You never mentioned a budget but both toolcat or mid size tractor are affordable.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

yeah ive decided after watching the videos that a blower is the route im going to go even if i have to rent or lease the first year. Ive got about 10 irons in the fire right now so money is tight. If i can get about 20 drives to pay in full than i will just go finance a tractor and blower. 

The last thing i need is another loan. 




can you guys tell me why i would want a rear mount over a front mount? why do i want to be looking behind me all night?


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## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

You've got to back up at some point.
Inverted blowers are by far the most common up here.
But if you want to reinvent the wheel.............
Besides at some point it won't be you blowing in that thing it'll be your guys lol.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

ohh it wont be me blowing in it this year either. Try two Mexicans that just hate the stuff as much as they hate the border patrol.


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## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

There ya go.
Now stop worrying about it and go find one.


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## priwi (Oct 26, 2010)

I'm thinking that the JD might be a bit loud for residential work. The skidsteer would seem to give you the most flexibility, easy to maneuver and able to stack snow when needed. Another bonus to the skidsteer is you can throw a blower on it. When you need to move it quickly throw it on a trailer. (assuming you have decent truck to pull it).


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I believe a deere tractor will be alot quieter than a skid. Doesnt matter if its not, i wont be using a skid nor do i give a hoot about noise. Do you want to sleep tight or do you want to get out in the morning? the noise will be gone in 5 minutes so live with it. Again my customers must be nice because ive never had a noise complaint and i will plow at 1 2 3 in the morning.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

how the heck do you quickly throw a skid on a trailer? you dont. i would rather have that truck thats pulling the trailer out plowing not sitting idle all day.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

BlackIrish;1100662 said:


> Some guys up here run 5740's with loader and inverted blower and do fine. Of course others have up to 100hp tractors for same resi work.
> I have some of everything that was suggested, tractors from 65-95 hp, toolcats,SS, jeeps, pick ups etc
> Used 65hp tractor with 250 hrs and inverted blower for $25K.
> Bigger tractor could have 2nd seat for shovel guy.
> ...


Thanks for chiming in Black. I like what you have to say, because you have real experience with all those types of equipment.


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## RAZOR (Dec 19, 2001)

Do any of you guys know of the techique of neatly clearing the snow in front of a garage door with a front mounted blower on either a SS or a tractor? I can't see much time savings if you have to keep back dragging and turning the machine around. There is a guy around here with a ss/blower and he seems to leave a big pile of snow in front of the door.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Seems like the ones with a hydro blade on the blower do a fine job


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Pronovost seems to be the top of the line right? Will a 60hp tractor handle a 92" blower or is a 86" a better fit? 

Does you guys know what they run ball park?


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

newhere;1101297 said:


> Pronovost seems to be the top of the line right? Will a 60hp tractor handle a 92" blower or is a 86" a better fit?
> 
> Does you guys know what they run ball park?


I would definately go for the 86 inch, and you are right Pronovost is top of the line along with SHoule and Normand. They all will cost you around 9 grand US + shipping.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

subscribed


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

RAZOR;1100912 said:


> Do any of you guys know of the techique of neatly clearing the snow in front of a garage door with a front mounted blower on either a SS or a tractor? I can't see much time savings if you have to keep back dragging and turning the machine around. There is a guy around here with a ss/blower and he seems to leave a big pile of snow in front of the door.


Thats the problem we had years ago with standard blowers. The faster you went and the wetter the snow the bigger the pile you left in front of the door. The PXPL from Pronovost will solve that problem, just they are very costly.


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## RAZOR (Dec 19, 2001)

The PXPL looks like it does a great job and it would be great to be able to clear snow going in both directions but my only concern would be that they look very complicated with many moving parts so there may be a greater chance of some thing breaking. Would it not be quicker to simply back in and drop an inverted blower and drive out blowing the snow as you go?


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## G-rott (Aug 24, 2003)

*Where do I find customers like that????*

OK really,

Without having to trailer between jobs I'd use a compact 4x4 30-40 ph tractor with a front mount blower and a box blade with rubber "wings" and cutting edge.

Most side entry drives you can drive in forward and never have to move snow in reverse.
On straight drives back in blade on tractor length away from the doors and blow you way out.

Just calculate if the width of the blower to minimize passes 6' 6'6" should clear most drives in 3-4 passes. You need a really big blower to do 2 passes and then you lose the ability to get in close.

You could also rig up a "deck with ramps on the box blade for a small side walk blower.

Garett


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm thinking a blower on the back and a 8'2" v-plow on the front mounted to the frame not arms. I think when the v is folded in it won't effect the turning radius like a 8' straight blade will.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*snow blower*



RAZOR;1101478 said:


> The PXPL looks like it does a great job and it would be great to be able to clear snow going in both directions but my only concern would be that they look very complicated with many moving parts so there may be a greater chance of some thing breaking. Would it not be quicker to simply back in and drop an inverted blower and drive out blowing the snow as you go?


========================================================================

Candidly they are not that complicated.

A no. 6 P.T.O. shaft? I do not remeber if it is a Euro Cardan P.T.O. shaft.
A 12 volt headlight light on the blower housing as standard equipment on some models I think.
they require three dual remotes on the carrier or 2 dual remotes and a splitter valve for-

1. the blowers double acting scraper blade cylinders (to provide down pressure) function.
2. the double acting chute rotation function.
3. the double acting spout control function.

They have either a 540 or 1,000 R.P.M. P.T.O. gearbox option to provide power 
through the roller chain drive and sprockets to the cross auger while rotating the impeller

They can be used with standard row crop tractors.

they could be mounted on a unimogs three point hitch up front or in a rear mount.

When you see the rubber flap that is connected to the scraper it works to hold any snow within the cross auger/ blower housing while you are backing up or driving forward acting as a back plow/scraper and thats all it does.


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## RAZOR (Dec 19, 2001)

Maybe you are right that rubber flaps moving back and forth would never break. But still I don't see how the process of clearing a driveway would be quicker (according to their website video) if you blow half the snow while going towards the garage door pulling the $700 3rd remote(that is not required with a inverted blower unless they have a hydraulic back blade) then blow the other half while going back towards the road. Maybe it just me but I think it would be much easier to simply back in with an inverted blower and drive straight out blowing snow as you go. I'm not up on their pricing perhaps you know but I would guess that you could almost buy 2 good quality inverted blowers for the price of a PXPL. 

Are you sure that you are not a Provost dealer Leon?


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

RAZOR;1101478 said:


> The PXPL looks like it does a great job and it would be great to be able to clear snow going in both directions but my only concern would be that they look very complicated with many moving parts so there may be a greater chance of some thing breaking. Would it not be quicker to simply back in and drop an inverted blower and drive out blowing the snow as you go?


Personally Ray I have yet to find a more efficient blower then an inverted one.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*snow blower*



RAZOR;1102206 said:


> Maybe you are right that rubber flaps moving back and forth would never break. But still I don't see how the process of clearing a driveway would be quicker (according to their website video) if you blow half the snow while going towards the garage door pulling the $700 3rd remote(that is not required with a inverted blower unless they have a hydraulic back blade) then blow the other half while going back towards the road. Maybe it just me but I think it would be much easier to simply back in with an inverted blower and drive straight out blowing snow as you go. I'm not up on their pricing perhaps you know but I would guess that you could almost buy 2 good quality inverted blowers for the price of a PXPL.
> 
> Are you sure that you are not a Provost dealer Leon?


========================================================================
Thier is one dedicated Pronovost in New York State which is Tudor and Jones in Weedsport, New York and again as I have stated many times before I am not affiliated with Tudor and Jones.

No, I am not a dealer for the pronovost line of machineries or any other equipment; you can ask Paul or Pronovost Machineries.

The problem with snow removal with residences-any type of residence is its architecture and basic lansdcape design.

Architects put form before function in residential design to make it attractive to the end user/homeowner.

This is the same reason any HOA, condominium complex, tract housing, or apartment building is difficult to manage during the winter especially, as well as dealing with snow removal due to the close quarters for sidewalks and parking and small driveways and roads which are not designed with snow removal in mind THEY ARE DESIGNED TO BE SOLD AS RESIDENCES.

They are designed with EYE APPEAL in mind to sell them to a potential home owner and thats the ONLY reason. the end results of maintenance are not the architects problem or concern period-they are commisioned by the investor to design these nightmares.

The Mpeg. that was uploaded showing the PXPL at work allows the potential buyer to see how well it operates in close quarters in driveways that are submerged below ground level and near doors and vehicles, and before anyone starts yammering about the fact that it is mounted on a forward hitch mounted reversable direction tractor look in the cab and locate the mirrors; the tractor may or may not have a camera; I never took the time to look for a television monitor or camera mounted on the roof line.

You want to work smarter not harder.


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## PhilCat (Jan 12, 2010)

DirtyJerzey;1098210 said:


> flip the bucket forward and pull out the snow to bottom of the driveway then push it up and on the lawn.


Hopefully this is not pushing it off to the side into the yard while in the driveway.

This always rips up the grass with a major gash. Ground isn't frozen under snow.

Yes, in Float mode, which few ever use or know how in a cat, and Yes, pull it out.
Trimming end of drive with wider approach.

Less damage on equipment, less risk breaking off concrete detail of the driveway going forward, and if second operator is involved, they can push the end of drive clear to the down wind side of drive that city trucks travel.

Also, owners driveway may already have major damage, and plowed forward, a major portion of their driveway is now a pile of asphalt slabs at end of driveway.
Try to hide that.

Lift pile off roadway past driveway onto bank of snow within property before next driveway comes up.

Or windrow the pile in roadway with plow truck against existing bank of snow.
Cat can head to next drive with over size snow bucket.
This always worked 4 times faster with second guy in truck.
He never has to turn around, being all he does is clear the ends back into the main snow along the route.

With good bucket edges, one doesn't need to back drag with front wheels in the air. It's not adding that much more down pressure. Plus more traction with four tires on the ground in float mode.

Maybe we'll get some snow before Thanksgiving to get retrained.
Cheers


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## PhilCat (Jan 12, 2010)

Neige;1098722 said:


> I think this video explains it all. I would go with at least 85 hp with the ag/bar lug tires.


Nice rig, and he's got the dance moves down pat when to hit the blower & direction even though about 2"-3" of snow.
I'll bet his neck is sore after 12 hours of that.

I wish this would work where we plow along downtown city streets of walkways and small lots.
Millions worth of cars are parked next to curb.

The broom is bad enough on the cat throwing snow & maybe gravel anywhere near the cars while clearing the sidewalks.

It's almost a 3 tour process on all the walks to keep them clear. The city will be by 3 times during the 1am - 5am widening the street with their belly plows and plowing dense salt laden snow back onto sidewalks at each pass, 4" - 6" deep.
Critical if left to freeze.
I have seen them travel at 40 plus, blowing slop up the sides of all the shops. What a mess.

Nice advantage out in the burbs where the plowtruck's won't be back the same day to fill in, blocking the driveways.


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## RAZOR (Dec 19, 2001)

Neige;1102218 said:


> Personally Ray I have yet to find a more efficient blower then an inverted one.


Thanks Paul, that was the point that I was trying to make.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

the tractor im looking at has the r-4 tires. any one have first hand experience? 

Im going to run it tomorrow or wes.


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## NLS1 (Jun 25, 2007)

I nominate this for my favorite thread of the season. Even though it is old now. So much good info. Especially since we are gonna add a tractor and blower soon! 

Thanks to Neige, Blackirish, and the others with real world experience with these machines!


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

and to the guy that started it you shmuck!!!!!

Pictures of my decision will be posted soon...................


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## hosejockey4506 (Oct 28, 2009)

im curious how you get a 100 drives in five miles. and your going to do this with very little equipment


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## KMBertog (Sep 9, 2010)

theplowmeister;1098030 said:


> How abot a jeep wrangler with plow, small, tight turning, plenty of power.
> Lots of us use them for driveways.


I completely agree. Love having my jeep for residential jobs. The turning radius is the best.


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## Dr Who (Dec 16, 2010)

newhere;1098040 said:


> its just a personal kinda thing but i think jeeps are for weekend warriors. Im not putting my name on the side of that kinda rig. I know that will chap your bum and i agree they do the job swell but it just doesnt look like a professional rig to me.


Weekend Warriors? Jeep helped win WWII, Jeep more or less invented 4x4, Jeep invented the SUV, Jeep was the cream of the crop in SUV for 20+ years...Yes I like Jeeps 
Besides Jeeps have had plows on them for as long as there have been Jeeps.

if you do not want a small rig, try a J series truck, still a Jeep, but its full sized and you can wiggle them around alot more then any other full sized truck, they have a great turing radius even in 4hi.
but they are hard to find not rusted to the bone...


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## PabstBlueRibbon (May 11, 2010)

how but just getting a pull plow on the truck you have now!


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## tavisj (Jul 11, 2010)

Just got to this thread tonight, I have been crazy busy with crazy mounts of snow.
I am the first person in western Canada to do the tractor and inverted snowblower (as far as I know,) thanks to seeing how it is done in Montreal over the last years and reading and speaking with Paul (neige), I made my purchase of a Kubota 5740 and normand 74 inch inverted snowblower with back blade. 
The Kubota - Excellent (with R4's) does 28 KM's per hour, and I do 125 drives, and each takes about 2 min or less except for my crazy large ones that are 2000 square feet +, they take about 6 min. all in a 5 mile radius on a 2" trigger working with the storm.
cost of machine and blower about 50,000 and avg customer paying 640.00 (inc sidewalk and walkways with seperate crew, about 21 bucks per time.
The Normand - Excellent with back blade and teflon cutting edge for the expensive drives.
The pain in the but out here is: customer saying that blower doesn't get close enough to pavement,
( people here have very high quality expectations and are used to shovels not machines, they like to see the pavement in the middle of january)
It is harder to do properties with sidewalks that run across near the end of the driveway because you have to be careful not to spray it as you go by.
Over all very good experience,I would do it again,
Answer is buy a tractor and blower, you will appreciate it.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

tavisj;1192003 said:


> Just got to this thread tonight, I have been crazy busy with crazy mounts of snow.
> I am the first person in western Canada to do the tractor and inverted snowblower (as far as I know,) thanks to seeing how it is done in Montreal over the last years and reading and speaking with Paul (neige), I made my purchase of a Kubota 5740 and normand 74 inch inverted snowblower with back blade.
> The Kubota - Excellent (with R4's) does 28 KM's per hour, and I do 125 drives, and each takes about 2 min or less except for my crazy large ones that are 2000 square feet +, they take about 6 min. all in a 5 mile radius on a 2" trigger working with the storm.
> cost of machine and blower about 50,000 and avg customer paying 640.00 (inc sidewalk and walkways with seperate crew, about 21 bucks per time.
> ...


Nice to read another success story. Its the teflon blade that is keeping you from scraping it right down to the pavement. ( but it will not leave any scratches) An option for those who are complaining is to offer to salt their drives after your done ( at an extra cost of course ). You will find people start getting used to this system after awhile. 125 drives is fantastic for a first year. I am sure after the big snows you have been getting, that your numbers will increase. Thats the beauty, you will pick up new clients next to the ones you already have, and route density is a charm. I could not help but do the math, a 50 grand investment, and your doing 80 grand of snow. Thumbs Up That tractor and blower still have many years in them. Thanks for posting, and keep us in the loop.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

TravisJ, 
Glad to here the tractor blower is working out for you... The problems you listed are similar to the ones I have from time to time. While I run the pxpl instead of an inverted, mine has the Tivar edge on the back drag portion and a AR 400 steal cutting edge. I have a slight coating from time to time, but the customers have all gotten use to it.
Good luck with the season and give us a update.


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## crazyskier537 (Dec 31, 2010)

Hey, I didn't read through this whole thread, but has anyone mentioned an atv with a 60" blade? Or even 72"? If you get yourself a used atv around 700cc, you will have plenty of power, and will get the job done pretty quick.


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## tavisj (Jul 11, 2010)

another complaint I'm getting is all my clients signed with a 5cm trigger but have been complaining that their drive is not done at every snow fall and how their neighbors is done all the time but on light snowfalls 1-4 cm, there's is left untouched, and like I mentioned before they are all used to seeing the pebbles on their exposed agg drive and right to the grass edges all year round but they don't want to pay the added cost to come out every snowfall, they would just rather tell me how bad of a job I'm doing when I'm following my contract. Is anyone else having these issues with clients? or is it just me in alberta?


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## crazyskier537 (Dec 31, 2010)

tavisj;1194112 said:


> another complaint I'm getting is all my clients signed with a 5cm trigger but have been complaining that their drive is not done at every snow fall and how their neighbors is done all the time but on light snowfalls 1-4 cm, there's is left untouched, and like I mentioned before they are all used to seeing the pebbles on their exposed agg drive and right to the grass edges all year round but they don't want to pay the added cost to come out every snowfall, they would just rather tell me how bad of a job I'm doing when I'm following my contract. Is anyone else having these issues with clients? or is it just me in alberta?


Haha it's not just you. I have a couple residentials where the owner will call me when there is a duting of snow. They then proceed to tell me I don't know how to do my job, and then instruct me on when and HOW to apply salt. Afterwards they apologize and I say ok fine.

Then I add the weirdest stuff to their bill, like "gasoline surcharge" or my favorite, "EC" aka extreme conditions. I don't usually give them the copy of this bill, as they will tend to pay me on the spot, where they ask "how much", I say "$50" they say "what! we agreed to $30", then I say yeah, but there were certain circumstances that required a raised fee". There outside, there cold, and they don't care much. Ahh I love my clients.

Actually going out to do a "salt run" right now, even though I know I don't need to. I'm extremely underpaid though (1-3" $15, 3-6" $20 6-10" $25, 10"+ TBA - average), so I guess it evens out.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

newhere;1173255 said:


> Pictures of my decision will be posted soon...................


Sooooooooooo.


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## OrganicsL&L (Jan 30, 2009)

Very helpful thread for me, thanks to all who chimed in with good info, and especially to the OP!:waving:

I am currently planning next winter....minimal snow work this year for me, but planning on a lot next! The average driveway in my neck of the woods is about 3k sq. ft. Pretty high end customers and the cost per visit for blowing is about $45. Here, we only work with the storm if it is going to be 12"+. Otherwise, we usually start when the snow begins to let up, not completely stopped, but usually within an hour or so of the end of the storm.

My hope is around 100 drives, these will be within 7 miles from my shop, but all in the same direction, and along the same road with some side roads along the way. What I had hoped to use is a Toolcat with a 72" blower on it. After watching Neige's videos, I may rethink this. My biggest concern is getting driveways this size done quickly enough. I've calculated that these can be done in 2-3 minutes going at around 2-3 mph. Most of our snow here on the coast of Maine is lite and fluffy, however, we do get a few sloppy storms too. 

A Toolcat will do more for me year round than a large tractor so that was my thinking there, but if I'm going to do snow, it has to be done timely. What are you're thoughts on this?


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## fargosnowpro (Dec 4, 2010)

newhere;1097988 said:


> ohhh crap that was my other option was to get a toolcat or a gator and put a little v-blade on it. But i would still need a box truck to haul it.


Top speed on their C series track machine is 11 mph, wheeled is 13 or 14 mph, I think, it's on their website under the specs of each machine. A Toolcat will travel at 18 mph, some members here have done some tweeks to the hydro and smaller wheels/tires that get them in the 22-23mph range, but stock it's 18.

I would look into a Toolcat for your purposes, a 3 point model if it were me. I would put a rear box plow (ebling back blade personally) in the rear and a blower up front. You could back into the drive, open up the Ebling and pull the driveway in 1 or 2 passes down to the street, turn around and blow the snow into the yard. payup


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

To late, allready bought the rig.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Did you post pics? What did you get?


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Will post pics soon. Got a new 4720 deere tractor


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

fargosnowpro;1201780 said:


> Top speed on their C series track machine is 11 mph, wheeled is 13 or 14 mph, I think, it's on their website under the specs of each machine. A Toolcat will travel at 18 mph, some members here have done some tweeks to the hydro and* smaller wheels/tires *that get them in the 22-23mph range, but stock it's 18.
> 
> I would look into a Toolcat for your purposes, a 3 point model if it were me. I would put a rear box plow (ebling back blade personally) in the rear and a blower up front. You could back into the drive, open up the Ebling and pull the driveway in 1 or 2 passes down to the street, turn around and blow the snow into the yard. payup


Smaller wheels and tires huh?


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## fiveoboy01 (Aug 18, 2006)

As someone who does quite a few residential drives, I found this thread interesting and amusing at the same time. Subscribing to avoid missing anything else


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## jwsland (Dec 13, 2010)

newhere;1201883 said:


> Will post pics soon. Got a new 4720 deere tractor


Good choice! congrats. I'm glad you didnt choose the "snow pull" from superplow.com :laughing:


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I will have some finished pics up soon. Blower and box on. Still waiting on the r-3 tires and the fenders/radio/beacon light.

Can't wait to use it seeing I've been using a little ditch with zahn and a 4' blade to do them all. Takes over 36 hours non stop with to people. I bet we cut that down to 8-10 with the tractor.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

newhere;1204459 said:


> I will have some finished pics up soon. Blower and box on. Still waiting on the r-3 tires and the fenders/radio/beacon light.
> 
> Can't wait to use it seeing I've been using a little ditch with zahn and a 4' blade to do them all. Takes over 36 hours non stop with to people. I bet we cut that down to 8-10 with the tractor.


What blower did you go with?


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## fargosnowpro (Dec 4, 2010)

IMAGE;1202170 said:


> Smaller wheels and tires huh?


Same size wheels i'm sure, bigger or smaller tires? I dunno, send a pm to Jon Geer (might be wrong on the spelling), he's the member I know for a fact has played around to get a higher top speed although I'm sure there are others.

Also, need a hug Image? Still mad about your name? :laughing:


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

fargosnowpro;1204516 said:


> Same size wheels i'm sure, bigger or smaller tires? I dunno, send a pm to Jon Geer (might be wrong on the spelling), he's the member I know for a fact has played around to get a higher top speed although I'm sure there are others.
> 
> Also, need a hug Image? Still mad about your name? :laughing:


Im just giving you shizzle, cause its bigger(taller) tires to make it go faster. Rims are custom, and narrower I believe. But the tires are taller overall. Also, the toolcat top speed is computer limited, so its more then just hydro and tires, its a little programing at the dealer(and you might have a hard time finding a dealer willing to f with it. Swansons told me no-go on it when I was looking at buying one).

Im goood on the hugs, thank your lady for me :yow!:


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