# No service below 2" and no salt



## jeffslawnservic (Apr 23, 2009)

Next year will be my first year plowing on my own and I have already started to talk with a few business owners about bids for next winter. One thing I have run into is a few people who don't want there lot touched if we get below 2" or snow. No salt, nothing. Also other people who do not want salting at all. What can I do to protect myself from getting sued for a slip and fall at one of these lots. Can I put in my contract that i am not to be liable for a slip and fall accident.


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## mikegooseman (Dec 28, 2009)

*contracts*

First off you can explain how their property will not look like the one across the road or beside them. If you have to rely on them making the call to pull the trigger, ask if they would like a wake up call at 3am when its coming down real quick ! ( don't think any property owner or manager would like that ) lol.....Or ask them if they will sign a waver excluding your insurance in the event of a slip-n-fall.....or finally maybe you as a business owner with your main goal is to be profitable and protect your a$$, look at a totally different scope of work , seek better all the time....IMO.....Your company/business will reflect on what your client list consist of and to how you want people in general to talk about you as a contractor....:salute:

Best of luck to you...


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## FordFisherman (Dec 5, 2007)

You need complete control to assume full liability; you will be held responsible either way. No salt, no deal. Let someone else get sued. Run away.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Mine don't get salt unless they call me. Haven't had a call in 10 years.


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## blee1ash (Mar 22, 2006)

Mine also don't get salted unless they call and request it. Salted 2times in the last 2 yrs. That is pretty typical for my area. Lots don't get salted unless it's a major ice storm. The only one around here that is regularly salted it Wal Mart.


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

Almost all of my lots get salted, with very little complaints from customers. However, I haver a clause in my contracts, as well as a seperate addendum that addresses liability in case they don't want salt.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Nope,never never again. If they don't want to pay for it, try to build it into your plow price.... But get 2-3 storms at 1.5 inches followed by 15 degree teems with no melting.....ummmmm then 6 inches on top of all that new ice.......super bad. Run. Find other business. Because when that happens, will you be required to clear all the way to the pavement? Good luck


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

Don't do it, you will end up with ice, ruts, and a huge mess


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## Dr Who (Dec 16, 2010)

jeffslawnservic;1239308 said:


> Next year will be my first year plowing on my own and I have already started to talk with a few business owners about bids for next winter. One thing I have run into is a few people who don't want there lot touched if we get below 2" or snow. No salt, nothing. Also other people who do not want salting at all. What can I do to protect myself from getting sued for a slip and fall at one of these lots. Can I put in my contract that i am not to be liable for a slip and fall accident.


Dude, I know how you feel here..
I have only been doing this for a couple years, mostly as a sub. This year I picked up some of my own nd I have the same problem.

I have one that is 1" trigger, but they said "ABSOLUTELY NO SALT EVER" the rest of mine are 2" triggers. Have couple that are call me when they want it deals, salt when they ask for it..
I have one client with 4 duplexes that it a 2" trigger, salt when I plow. Well I got in trouble, kinda with them as I did not salt it after an 1' snow, it melted off by noon every were in town, but there drives were solid ice, I was not told till 3 days later when we got another 1" snow. So I went out, shoveled off the 1-1.5" and salted the crap out of it. I will probably loose the contact for next year, but I was never told to salt them unless I plow, I a only to plow at 2"..

Its a mess, I have no idea how to protect myself other then having insurance, but if the client will not pay for it, I am not going to do it. If the client says to plow at X" that is what I am going to do, If I need to salt only at X" then I need to be told....

contract, have it clearly stated what you are to do and when, other then that I am lost...


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## qualitycut (Jan 13, 2008)

elite1msmith;1239725 said:


> Nope,never never again. If they don't want to pay for it, try to build it into your plow price.... But get 2-3 storms at 1.5 inches followed by 15 degree teems with no melting.....ummmmm then 6 inches on top of all that new ice.......super bad. Run. Find other business. Because when that happens, will you be required to clear all the way to the pavement? Good luck


After two 1.5 snows you would be over your trigger wouldn't you? That's how we plow


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## wastedwages (Feb 9, 2011)

Being I'm on the other side of the coin. Meaning I'm the customer. I have my contract set up as no service under 2''. Only because it really depends on the temp and winds if it needs any attention or not. Also this is the first year with this guy. So we need to learn each other. But I do work closely with the guy who does the plowing. If the lot looks like crap and needs some attention I just give him a ring and let him know. But I also keep one foot in the real world. I realize he has customers who contracts require care at at first snow flake. Those should come before my needs. I'm fine with waiting until he gets to me. So far it has worked out well. I did this because last year I signed a deal the contractor took full responsibility. He took great liberty with shoving his salt truck up my butt. I have surveillance video of clear pavement and no precipitation in the forecast for almost a week and he was still giving me the salt job on two consecutive days. He became real defensive and gave me some jib jab about the requirements from his insurance company. I tried to reason with him, but it just was not going to work. I have been really happy with this years contractor. Next year I'll sign a contract without the no service under 2" clause and just tell him to be fair and treat me right. I know it's not easy and not everyone is always happy. But geeze lets just talk about it and move on...


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## qualitycut (Jan 13, 2008)

wastedwages;1241567 said:


> Being I'm on the other side of the coin. Meaning I'm the customer. I have my contract set up as no service under 2''. Only because it really depends on the temp and winds if it needs any attention or not. Also this is the first year with this guy. So we need to learn each other. But I do work closely with the guy who does the plowing. If the lot looks like crap and needs some attention I just give him a ring and let him know. But I also keep one foot in the real world. I realize he has customers who contracts require care at at first snow flake. Those should come before my needs. I'm fine with waiting until he gets to me. So far it has worked out well. I did this because last year I signed a deal the contractor took full responsibility. He took great liberty with shoving his salt truck up my butt. I have surveillance video of clear pavement and no precipitation in the forecast for almost a week and he was still giving me the salt job on two consecutive days. He became real defensive and gave me some jib jab about the requirements from his insurance company. I tried to reason with him, but it just was not going to work. I have been really happy with this years contractor. Next year I'll sign a contract without the no service under 2" clause and just tell him to be fair and treat me right. I know it's not easy and not everyone is always happy. But geeze lets just talk about it and move on...


to bad not all customers are understanding like you.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

qualitycut;1241537 said:


> After two 1.5 snows you would be over your trigger wouldn't you? That's how we plow


Depends on you you define 2 inches in your contract. Is it a 2 inch snow fall, is it an accumulative 2 inch snow fall. Is it an acreage snow depth on property of 2 inches? 1.5 inches after walked and driven over is like 1/4 inch of ice.....so no you would be below your 2 inch mark


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## SSS Inc. (Oct 18, 2010)

"Depends on you you define 2 inches in your contract. Is it a 2 inch snow fall, is it an accumulative 2 inch snow fall. Is it an acreage snow depth on property of 2 inches? 1.5 inches after walked and driven over is like 1/4 inch of ice.....so no you would be below your 2 inch mark "

In Minnesota we tend to get some 1-1.5" events all in a row. It usually doesn't have time to compact and turn to ice. We use our own judgment after a couple small storms and the customers are almost 100% on board with our plan. If there is some question whether to plow or not a quick phone call usually takes care of that. As far as salt, we don't salt anything unless called. I'd say 90% of the lots in the Minneapolis area are covered with a thin layer of compacted snow all winter long. Keep in mind our temps don't don't flirt with the freezing mark very often, we are usually much colder. Different regions have different expectations and around here most people have given into the fact that winter is what it is and we have all adapted to it.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

How does it not have time to compact ? Don't cars drive on it? I think part of that is where you come from, my guess is snow by you is a part of life, people own 4x4 vehicles and they deal with it. As funny as this sounds out here snow is "an emergency ". Even a 2 inch snow fall causes a normal 45 min commute for people into a 3 hour hell.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

There are parts of the country where the standard of service is different. Its weird to go some places and they dont see the roads all winter. Its just expected in the winter you drive on snow.
Some places the highway departments still use sand. Plow it off and spead sand over the snow pack.

Around here a dusting is an "emergency" 

Anything less than clear dry pavement requires attention. It sucks at times.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

SSS Inc.;1242422 said:


> "Depends on you you define 2 inches in your contract. Is it a 2 inch snow fall, is it an accumulative 2 inch snow fall. Is it an acreage snow depth on property of 2 inches? 1.5 inches after walked and driven over is like 1/4 inch of ice.....so no you would be below your 2 inch mark "
> 
> In Minnesota we tend to get some 1-1.5" events all in a row. It usually doesn't have time to compact and turn to ice. We use our own judgment after a couple small storms and the customers are almost 100% on board with our plan. If there is some question whether to plow or not a quick phone call usually takes care of that. As far as salt, we don't salt anything unless called. I'd say 90% of the lots in the Minneapolis area are covered with a thin layer of compacted snow all winter long. Keep in mind our temps don't don't flirt with the freezing mark very often, we are usually much colder. Different regions have different expectations and around here most people have given into the fact that winter is what it is and we have all adapted to it.


I flew out of msp a few weeks ago. From the air it was easy to see which customers wanted black bare pavement. If your looking for more full service accounts just hire a small plane for a couple hrs to do some scouting. You will be able to see which customers are willing to pay for salt pretty easy.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Around here snow is an emergency as well. Especially if its the beginning of the year. If our first storm is over 2 inches, usually someone flips over on the highway and dies. Its crazy. 

But anyways, I don't have a single lot that doesn't want salt every time it snows, usually we salt once mid storm right before the busy hours (5am to 8am or 4pm to 6pm), and then at the end of the storm once everything is cleaned up. But I also have a medical building and we salt that all day long (if its a business day storm). 

I can't imagine not having to salt and having to leave snow pack on a parking lot. I even turned down a large shopping plaza this year because they could only use sand and I can't imagine how terrible that would leave the place looking. I didn't even want my name on it because of that. I envy you guys that don't have to salt because you don't need to think about 10,000 to 15,000 dollar salt bills at the end of the month, but I don't envy the money your missing out on.


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## SSS Inc. (Oct 18, 2010)

elite1msmith, 
I should have clarified more, of course they compact where the drive lanes are. Many lots will still have parking stalls or areas not used often 90% untouched. What I was trying to say is that none of our properties would be fully compacted curb to curb. Every so often we get these little clippers rolling out of Canada at a rate of 2-3 a week, if each one is an inch our customers want it plowed. And your right, it is part of life here but most people are still bad drivers. We even have have a few weather people that will refer to 2" as a flurries and one guy that always calls plowable 3-4" or more.

As far as flying out of msp, yes you see a lot of clear lots. Most of these are the large retailers and Malls and some smaller places(more so in the suburbs). It depends on the week too. Sometimes the sun comes out for a while, sometimes its 25 below zero and nothing works. If you were to drive around I think most people would be surprised at what isn't salted around here. Its slowly changing but we're a long way from salting everything that gets plowed. I know some guys that do it around here but they service a different area then we do(suburbs vs. city). The city doesn't even salt the road in front of my house. If is super cold and snowing every few days it can be a losing battle unless your customer is willing to pay for a whole lot of salt. And yes, some people will pay for it around here. On a related weather note we have had our first string of 5 days above freezing, first time since the middle of November.


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## snorider075 (Apr 3, 2010)

We just introduce them with our service plan on we plow at an inch we apply chemicals at under an inch. during open hours its every 2 inch. then every 6 inches over night lots get plowed. keeps it simple and able schedule accounts and routes.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

You wait till there is 6 inches?


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## bigthom (Oct 14, 2010)

We don't have any that salt. All our contracts state 3" for residential and 2" for commercial properties. We do not assume and responsibilities with slip and falls if lot has been plowed. At time on incident they take pictures of area anyway so it will show how much snow and if we plowed. If they want salt they call and we take care of it


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I'll say it again. When you sue,you sue everyone and let the judge decide who is responsible for it . I do have a bank I plow and the snow melts off the roof onto the lot . So what I did was call the property service dept and put a notice in on this. This way if some thing should happen it's on record of the melting ice and not from plowing.


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## snorider075 (Apr 3, 2010)

grandview;1256303 said:


> You wait till there is 6 inches?


yes. there is some type of blizzard clause as well that is stated. what do you guys plow at over night when its still snowing? Just to compare, I'm willing to learn more and more.Thumbs Up


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Start at lot one and go through the route till it stops snowing. Since the weather dorks have been wrong a lot this year you couldn't trust them. When they said only 5 inches overnight and ended up with 40 inches a lot of guys got caught with the plow up.So i go out and plow to keep it down.


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## snorider075 (Apr 3, 2010)

gotcha. I hear that on the weather guessers.lol


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## bradlewislawnca (Mar 2, 2011)

a.	Parking Lots will be plowed after a snowstorm that has produced an accumulation of at least a half (.5) inch of fresh snowfall (according to weatherunderground.com).
b.	Parking Lots will be plowed during a snowstorm (see c) if the snow reaches a depth of .5 inch or greater by 8 am. According to (weatherunderground.com)
c.	Parking Lots will be plowed during a storm every three hours after the first triggered plowing. It will be at soonest 3 hours after the first plowing.
d.	The walkways and/or sidewalks to the front doors will be cleared of snow along with the city sidewalks from the bridge to the end of the patio. This includes the sidewalks mandated by the city of Troy. This also includes access points where employees and customers enter and leave the premises. This will happen as it is plowed.
e.	Snow will be moved in the most efficient manner as to leave room for the next snowfall. It will be put against the retaining wall adjoining the bridge. This may impede parking of potential customers.
f.	Any melting of snow and then refreezing of the snow pile will not be the responsibility of Brad Lewis Lawn Care and should be noted by management.
g.	If there is an overwhelming snowfall that requires removal of snow from any location, the removal will be at an added cost to XXXXXX.
h.	Brad Lewis Lawn Care is not responsible for any injuries or losses that occur before and after he leaves the premises.
i.	If there are any complaints XXXXXXXX and/or their employees are to call Brad Lewis Lawn Care within 24 hours of work or work will be deemed to be sufficient.
j.	Owner maintains the responsibility for monitoring and inspecting the premises.
k.	Application of salting material is not included on this proposal.


Then there is a law stating that in NY you have a resonable amount of time to clean your property after the storm. So if someone falls during a storm they are idiots....



Page 2/2
l.	If a blizzard of more than 1.5 feet of snow drops a delay in service may occur, as the roads to and from XXXXXXX may be rough to get through. The lot will be cleared as soon as possible.
m.	If there are customers in the parking lot, their cars will not be cleared due to the risk of damage to their cars. The snow will be plowed away from their cars. The snow around their car will be left until they move it at which point it will be cleared upon our next service.


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## milkie62 (Sep 1, 2003)

It would seem like there would be less liability if salting is left up to the owner.I only salt when called.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

NICHOLS LANDSCA;1239777 said:


> Don't do it, you will end up with ice, ruts, and a huge mess


Couldn't have said it better!


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## milkie62 (Sep 1, 2003)

*My residential trigger*

This is how I have been doing residentials for the past 20 yrs with no real complaints:
I leave my house between 3&4 inches for a big storm.If it is basically guarenteed that we will only get 5-6" I will wait till the storm is over so a customer does not have that 1-2" left on their drive.Depending on the weather for the rest of the week if we get less than 3" and it will be at or above freezing I only plow people that call.If it is going to be really cold or ice is coming I will plow as little as 2" since the drives can become a mess.To save the poor old ladies who are not going out anyways,I wait till the end of most all storms to do them since I know they cannot really afford multiple plowings.And the little old ladies all pay cash.........


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## rcn971 (Jan 28, 2011)

If you have a signed contract stating no service until 2" unless notified by email/fax/text, you have no liability if someone slips and falls in anything under a 2" storm. Sure, you are gonna get dragged into court by a bloodsucking attorney anyway, but show up with your contract and the local snowfall total you both agreed to use as guidelines in your contract and you win. By requiring email/fax/text they can't say they notified you and you didn't show.


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