# Well it finally happen to us



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

We were taken out by a low baller or should I say the king of lowballer's. We plowed a church for the past 4 years. They were always happy with us, never a complaint etc. I called today to see the progress of the contract and the lady who is in charge of it said "I'm sorry but they went with someone else". We talked for a bit and I asked who got it, never heard of them and she told me the price, I about choked on my chew. I'll share number's now b/c who cares at this point...this lot took even me just over 2hr each 2-4" storm and a bit longer with more snow. We were doing them a favor at 85.00 per time, there's probably close to 2 acres of plowing. His price.....are you sitting down?-----40 bucks! Plus this idiot tries to cover a 20 mile radius. What an idiot! Thats fine, I can do, oh, about 20 more driveway now that average 20 bucks. So 85 bucks in 2hrs or 400 bucks,lol:laughing: Have fun DIPSH!T.


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## dodge2500 (Aug 20, 2009)

I would say your $85 bucks was real cheap already. We have been beat up a lot on pricing this year. Oh well I would rather sit at home than work for free.


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## fci (Sep 7, 2008)

I have had similar things happen to me this year. Let the low ballers take what they can this year. Next year I will buy their equipment for 50% of what it's worth! when they are out of business.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Don't worry they'll be calling you back..... just make sure you raise your rate because great service costs more!....


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## THEGOLDPRO (Jun 18, 2006)

They come and go.


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

We used to do a church as well....one of the brethren came in that is also a maintenance co just like one of the old owners. About 2.5-3 acre lot, he salts for 100$ per application, plows for less then 1/2 of us and cuts the grass real cheap too!

They are unhappy with his service but cheap gets the bid. Dropped our price a little back 2 years ago but wasn't enough to keep it.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

CGM Inc.;1320689 said:


> We used to do a church as well....one of the brethren came in that is also a maintenance co just like one of the old owners. About 2.5-3 acre lot, he salts for 100$ per application, plows for less then 1/2 of us and cuts the grass real cheap too!
> 
> They are unhappy with his service but cheap gets the bid. Dropped our price a little back 2 years ago but wasn't enough to keep it.


Like I said in many other posts.....looking for another line of work! It will keep getting worse and worse. Hears my thoughts as to why....There are more and more lawn care services around b/c there are more and more lay offs. The more lawn care companies there are the more employee's there are who, after a few years think the heck with this I can do this on my own who then go out buy a truck to tow they're little trailer around then buy a plow and plow a handful of places at a fraction to whats it's worth compared to a legit company with the usual expenses. Yeah if all I had were fuel, (maybe minimal at best insurance) and an occasional repair costs I could compete. I don't think this company has a clue as to what to charge. after talking to a friend of mine who know's him, I guess he is doing this all over the place. Its probably the same idiot who is charging 27/hr plowing commercial lots around here per a very reliable source. Again have at it, while your making you whoppin' 40 bucks I will be adding another zero to that number.


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## northernsweeper (Aug 26, 2004)

I agree, and there seems to be new nationals popping up everyday as well, driving down the prices even more. We have a company that is based 200 miles away, doing a major home/lumber supply store in my town. They lease a skid, put their own boxblade and three point spreader on it, hire whoever they can get locally to run it, at 9-12 dollar per hour, and do salt drops for him after each storm. He does the entire lot himself. They have had the contract for 3 or 4 years and there is always once or twice during the winter, when the guy doesn't show up, for whatever reason, and the place will be a disaster for 1 or two days. I have talked to the manager and even their main office service branch, wanting to bid it, but they keep them every year. Won't even except a bid. Go figure.


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## neplow (Oct 6, 2011)

85 dollars was already lowballing it. The guy that took it is donating to the church.



i would probably plow a church for free, or near free. Long as i liked the church. Praise the lord, i shouldn't make money on jesus.

might end up going to hell.


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## My bowtie (Jan 15, 2008)

Brian Young;1320761 said:


> Like I said in many other posts.....looking for another line of work! It will keep getting worse and worse. Hears my thoughts as to why....There are more and more lawn care services around b/c there are more and more lay offs. The more lawn care companies there are the more employee's there are who, after a few years think the heck with this I can do this on my own who then go out buy a truck to tow they're little trailer around then buy a plow and plow a handful of places at a fraction to whats it's worth compared to a legit company with the usual expenses. Yeah if all I had were fuel, (maybe minimal at best insurance) and an occasional repair costs I could compete. I don't think this company has a clue as to what to charge. after talking to a friend of mine who know's him, I guess he is doing this all over the place. Its probably the same idiot who is charging 27/hr plowing commercial lots around here per a very reliable source. Again have at it, while your making you whoppin' 40 bucks I will be adding another zero to that number.


So a lawn care co isn't a legit co.? Really?? I have the same expenses as you, might not be as high as yours, but the same neverless. Because my overhead is lower and I can make the same proffit margin as u by having a lower price, I dont have a clue what to charge?? I think its a good idea your looking for another line of work...


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## jgoetter1 (Feb 23, 2007)

neplow;1320803 said:


> 85 dollars was already lowballing it. The guy that took it is donating to the church.
> 
> i would probably plow a church for free, or near free. Long as i liked the church. Praise the lord, i shouldn't make money on jesus.
> 
> might end up going to hell.


Interesting thoughts.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

My bowtie;1320827 said:


> So a lawn care co isn't a legit co.? Really?? I have the same expenses as you, might not be as high as yours, but the same neverless. Because my overhead is lower and I can make the same proffit margin as u by having a lower price, I dont have a clue what to charge?? I think its a good idea your looking for another line of work...


Wow! you act as if I was directly speaking to you, about you. Once again someone reading what they want to read. No one said lawn care companies aren't legit. Why would you even think that? I would hope a "company" with one truck, one mower and one of everything would have a lower overhead BUT does that mean you go around doing things half price or less. It's called knowing what your market will bring but if thats your philosophy then I guess your part of the problem.


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## forbidden (Dec 22, 2010)

And and and, one day when your little company is "all growed up" and you have higher overhead, you too will lose a place just like this........ it's not all about margin, it's about knowing where you want to be in 5 years time. Margin is a good thing and the more of it the better. You want to live to see another day, don't deflate the marketplace.


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## CS-LAWNSERVICE (Sep 3, 2011)

Brian Young;1320867 said:


> I would hope a "company" with one truck, one mower and one of everything would have a lower overhead BUT does that mean you go around doing things half price or less. .


I find this interesting because the first thing I read on every post when some one ask a price question is

Know your cost to do business .

so if a man with one truck one shovel and working out of his garage prices a job cheaply because he has low over head he is called a low baller.


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## sectlandscaping (Sep 7, 2009)

neplow;1320803 said:


> 85 dollars was already lowballing it. The guy that took it is donating to the church.
> 
> i would probably plow a church for free, or near free. Long as i liked the church. Praise the lord, i shouldn't make money on jesus.
> 
> might end up going to hell.


My bid wouldve been over 2 bills with salt. This coming from a lawn care guy. I do think we charge a bit more up here though. I wouldnt give a church a discount either. There a business just like any other except with tax breaks.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

CS-LAWNSERVICE;1320957 said:


> I find this interesting because the first thing I read on every post when some one ask a price question is
> 
> Know your cost to do business .
> 
> so if a man with one truck one shovel and working out of his garage prices a job cheaply because he has low over head he is called a low baller.


UMMMM yes I think so. Knowing your cost is one thing, knowing what your area will bring is another. A 5-10 dollar difference is one thing but leaving over half on the table is just stupid. As more and more of the "guys with one truck working out of their garage" as you put it do this it only brings everything down because when they realize their price was way too low and decide to get out everyone else who is still in it is dealing with lower and lower prices. Just because you work out of your garage with one truck why do you devalue your services?


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## CS-LAWNSERVICE (Sep 3, 2011)

Brian Young;1320980 said:


> UMMMM yes I think so. Knowing your cost is one thing, knowing what your area will bring is another. A 5-10 dollar difference is one thing but leaving over half on the table is just stupid. As more and more of the "guys with one truck working out of their garage" as you put it do this it only brings everything down because when they realize their price was way too low and decide to get out everyone else who is still in it is dealing with lower and lower prices. Just because you work out of your garage with one truck why do you devalue your services?


Oh I agree with you on it 100 percent .i work out of my garage with low over head but my truck gets 100 an hour plowing and if i have to get out and shovel that's 40 an hour

I just find it interesting instead of helping people price correctly so many just tell them to know there over head and price accordingly

I probably over price my work but I stay busy with what I have and make a living at it


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

dodge2500;1320657 said:


> I would say your $85 bucks was real cheap already. We have been beat up a lot on pricing this year. Oh well I would rather sit at home than work for free.


yeah damn... we've never billed under $150 per hour of anything we've plowed in NJ... even bigger church parking lots that took us under a half hour were $225+ . no loss there bud, let the guy have it for $40. When they call back, rebid for $200+


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

CS-LAWNSERVICE;1320985 said:


> Oh I agree with you on it 100 percent .i work out of my garage with low over head but my truck gets 100 an hour plowing and if i have to get out and shovel that's 40 an hour
> 
> I just find it interesting instead of helping people price correctly so many just tell them to know there over head and price accordingly
> 
> I probably over price my work but I stay busy with what I have and make a living at it


How much help should be given to the competition? The more readily available pricing info is the easier it is for someone else to steal the work. Or have a brand new company reap the benefits of your bidding knowledge?


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Brian Young;1320647 said:


> We were doing them a favor at 85.00 per time, there's probably close to 2 acres of plowing. His price.....are you sitting down?-----40 bucks! Plus this idiot tries to cover a 20 mile radius. What an idiot! Thats fine, I can do, oh, about 20 more driveway now that average 20 bucks. So 85 bucks in 2hrs or 400 bucks,lol:laughing: Have fun DIPSH!T.


I see your point if you were both charging the same price, but he really doesn't have to in order to make the same profit as you.



Brian Young;1320761 said:


> *Like I said in many other posts.....looking for another line of work! It will keep getting worse and worse*. I don't think this company has a clue as to what to charge. after talking to a friend of mine who know's him, I guess he is doing this all over the place. Its probably the same idiot who is charging 27/hr plowing commercial lots around here per a very reliable source. Again have at it, while your making you whoppin' 40 bucks I will be adding another zero to that number.


Problem is, this isn't the only business where this is taking place. Because of the economy people are generally shopping by price not quality anymore. As for what he's charging, your last sentence has a lot of irony in it - how can you add a zero to that number when he's literally taking your accounts away from you?

Not flaming you here.



CS-LAWNSERVICE;1320957 said:


> I find this interesting because the first thing I read on every post when some one ask a price question is
> 
> Know your cost to do business .
> 
> so if a man with one truck one shovel and working out of his garage prices a job cheaply because he has low over head he is called a low baller.


Exactly, if he's out there being legit (paying taxes, has insurance) then good for him. Kind of the reason I downgraded my own equipment. Truck is paid for, insurance was cheaper, but I'm keeping the same rates as before so I have a higher profit margin than before.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

CS-LAWNSERVICE;1320985 said:


> Oh I agree with you on it 100 percent .i work out of my garage with low over head but my truck gets 100 an hour plowing and if i have to get out and shovel that's 40 an hour
> 
> I just find it interesting instead of helping people price correctly so many just tell them to know there over head and price accordingly
> 
> I probably over price my work but I stay busy with what I have and make a living at it


I don't think you over price your work, you are just being business smart and are able to make more than some others. It still comes down to #1 know your costs. Once you know that, what minimum margin do you want to make? This does not mean you need to charge that amount, its more a guide to I will not work for less than this. I have some contracts that pay 3 times my minimum margin, these are my keepers and protector's. I believe the second most important thing to know is what price will your market bear. If the market price is $100/hr, and you have $60/hr as a minimum margin anything over that just becomes more profitable. Now you could come in at $60/hr and get loads of work, or you can charge $95 and still get work and make loads more. This is where pricing becomes complicated, one persons costs definitely are different than an others. Some people are happy with 20% margins, and others feel 50% should be the case. When you check out what the OP said that he lost it at a $40 per push needing almost 2 hrs to push. I don't know of anyone who can make money at $20/hr with a truck and plow and the expenses that go along with that, clearly someone thinks he can, OR he has no idea about his numbers. The best example I can give is my own. My seasonals work out to around $5.00 a push, a good driver will do 50 of them an hour so he is making me $250 hr with that tractor. I know my market will not bear anything over that amount, I am actually in the higher bracket then others all around me. So in my market I am the expensive guy, to most people on here I am the lowballer. At $250/hr am I really a lowballer, or just someone who found out a way to be very efficient. I can offer a reasonable price to most people, making it very affordable to have their snow cleared. Because of this I run close to servicing 70% of the homes on a street clearing their snow. I am the only contractor that increased his price by .16 cents a push so $5.16 a push this year. It means $32 grand more than last year. (these figures come from our seasonal price of $310 for a double wide drive being serviced 60 times in the season.) Just some food for thought.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

Brian Young;1320647 said:


> We were taken out by a low baller or should I say the king of lowballer's. We plowed a church for the past 4 years. They were always happy with us, never a complaint etc. I called today to see the progress of the contract and the lady who is in charge of it said "I'm sorry but they went with someone else". We talked for a bit and I asked who got it, never heard of them and she told me the price, I about choked on my chew. I'll share number's now b/c who cares at this point...this lot took even me just over 2hr each 2-4" storm and a bit longer with more snow. We were doing them a favor at 85.00 per time, there's probably close to 2 acres of plowing. His price.....are you sitting down?-----40 bucks! Plus this idiot tries to cover a 20 mile radius. What an idiot! Thats fine, I can do, oh, about 20 more driveway now that average 20 bucks. So 85 bucks in 2hrs or 400 bucks,lol:laughing: Have fun DIPSH!T.


2 hours to plow a 2 acre lot?? What are you using a Cub Cadet?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

tbi;1321051 said:


> 2 hours to plow a 2 acre lot?? What are you using a Cub Cadet?


Yeah thats it jr.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

tbi;1321051 said:


> 2 hours to plow a 2 acre lot?? What are you using a Cub Cadet?


Efficiency for a truck with an 8' blade is one hour at 100% efficiency. No one plows at 100% efficiency (traffic, phone call/writing stuff down stops, pedestrians, etc). So yes, 2 acres 2 hours, depending on equip, but we're assuming he is using a truck. Or maybe you mean a larger cub cadet tractor with a 10' pusher on the front?

But onto the OP. First off, I obsess about my businesses numbers, rates, efficiency factors, etc and through all that, I have found no circumstance where plowing any size lot for your competitor's $40 is financially possible. Even at your $85 for a 2 acre lot, it means your making $42.50 an hour at 100% efficiency (and we all know that is impossible). So lets factor in an extra half hour for an assumed 10 mins of drive time each way, and then an extra 10 mins of screwing around in the lot for inefficiencies. Your at $34 an hour. I don't care what a market will bear, or who has lower overhead, a truck and fuel still cost in PA as what they cost in MA. There is no way to run a truck, fuel, and employee for $34 an hour, in any part of the country. And I'm sure it goes a LOT lower than that because you said "just over two hours".

I'm not writing this as a negative post at all, and I'm not trying to bash you at all, I think you have a lot of good posts on here. In fact I defended you in the first sentence. But with what you gave us, I'm not surprised you want to find another line of work, I would too.

It sounds to me like you need to really sit down and build a solid budget for your company and factor in every single cent that both you think you will spend and you have historically spent. I would suggest signing up for the Landscape Management Network's online budgeting tool deal that they have. If I remember right its only $99 a month and is extremely useful for all that, and I guarantee when you build a very solid company budget you will be very surprised. I know I was!

Trust me, loosing that lot was the best thing that ever happened to you payup:salute:


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## juspayme (Jan 4, 2006)

its the lowballer calling the low low baller, a low baller


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## LushLawns (Sep 17, 2011)

Most lowballers are like stupid criminals they won't be in business long.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

merrimacmill;1321472 said:


> Efficiency for a truck with an 8' blade is one hour at 100% efficiency. No one plows at 100% efficiency (traffic, phone call/writing stuff down stops, pedestrians, etc). So yes, 2 acres 2 hours, depending on equip, but we're assuming he is using a truck. Or maybe you mean a larger cub cadet tractor with a 10' pusher on the front?
> 
> But onto the OP. First off, I obsess about my businesses numbers, rates, efficiency factors, etc and through all that, I have found no circumstance where plowing any size lot for your competitor's $40 is financially possible. Even at your $85 for a 2 acre lot, it means your making $42.50 an hour at 100% efficiency (and we all know that is impossible). So lets factor in an extra half hour for an assumed 10 mins of drive time each way, and then an extra 10 mins of screwing around in the lot for inefficiencies. Your at $34 an hour. I don't care what a market will bear, or who has lower overhead, a truck and fuel still cost in PA as what they cost in MA. There is no way to run a truck, fuel, and employee for $34 an hour, in any part of the country. And I'm sure it goes a LOT lower than that because you said "just over two hours".
> 
> ...


Hi Collin, I know I wasn't making much at this lot, they used to get salt up until last season and thats where I made back some money. But over the years even I noticed a big drop in attendance there so I kind of felt bad and I wasn't loosing money. I know my budget, number's whatever you want to call it but again, I was kinda of doing them a favor. Its bad around here with prices. I just talked to Rich and he said he lost a few or was bidding a few lots that some company was at 27/hr. BTW, was plowing this lot with a 3/4 ton and 8.6 V blade. I didn't think 2hrs was bad given the lot.


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## wisco-revi (Oct 4, 2010)

same thing happened to me. two guys in pickup trucks thought they could plow a shopping complex. needless to say they underbid it and didnt perform and we ended up with it back the next year at our same price.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

merrimacmill;1321472 said:


> Efficiency for a truck with an 8' blade is one hour at 100% efficiency. No one plows at 100% efficiency (traffic, phone call/writing stuff down stops, pedestrians, etc). So yes, 2 acres 2 hours, depending on equip, but we're assuming he is using a truck. Or maybe you mean a larger cub cadet tractor with a 10' pusher on the front?
> 
> But onto the OP. First off, I obsess about my businesses numbers, rates, efficiency factors, etc and through all that, I have found no circumstance where plowing any size lot for your competitor's $40 is financially possible. Even at your $85 for a 2 acre lot, it means your making $42.50 an hour at 100% efficiency (and we all know that is impossible). So lets factor in an extra half hour for an assumed 10 mins of drive time each way, and then an extra 10 mins of screwing around in the lot for inefficiencies. Your at $34 an hour. I don't care what a market will bear, or who has lower overhead, a truck and fuel still cost in PA as what they cost in MA. There is no way to run a truck, fuel, and employee for $34 an hour, in any part of the country. And I'm sure it goes a LOT lower than that because you said "just over two hours".
> 
> ...


Sorry but you guys would go broke here taking 2 hrs to plow a 2 acre lot.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

Brian Young;1321251 said:


> Yeah thats it jr.


LOL let me know when you get out of the instructional league.
Seriously do you plow in low range to achieve those numbers?
We'll more than double that speed using Duramax/Allison combos which have a whopping top reverse speed of about 18mph.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

tbi;1321699 said:


> Sorry but you guys would go broke here taking 2 hrs to plow a 2 acre lot.


What plow are you using?
1 truck?


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

tbi;1321704 said:


> LOL let me know when you get out of the instructional league.
> Seriously do you plow in low range to achieve those numbers?
> We'll more than double that speed using Duramax/Allison combos which have a whopping top reverse speed of about 18mph.


There are two types of plowing, there is proper and safe plowing, meaning going within the defined speeds of proper and safe operational use of the truck and plow equipment. Then there is reckless endangerment plowing. If I saw any of my guys plowing with a ground speed fast enough to achieve the numbers you seem to be referencing, they would be fired on the spot, I wouldn't even discuss it with them.

And that is bs about duramax allison combos "more than doubling" the speed of your plowing. I have been plowing with duramax's for 5 years now and it has never doubled how much I can plow.

If you think that you can take a 8' blade and plow THAT much more than an acre an hour, share you secret.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

REAPER;1321738 said:


> What plow are you using?
> 1 truck?


14 trucks, 1 loader and 1 backhoe.
8.5-9.5' Fishers and Hinikers and pushers from 10-14'.
Some lots are upwards of 300,000 sf.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

merrimacmill;1321742 said:


> There are two types of plowing, there is proper and safe plowing, meaning going within the defined speeds of proper and safe operational use of the truck and plow equipment. Then there is reckless endangerment plowing. If I saw any of my guys plowing with a ground speed fast enough to achieve the numbers you seem to be referencing, they would be fired on the spot, I wouldn't even discuss it with them.
> 
> And that is bs about duramax allison combos "more than doubling" the speed of your plowing. I have been plowing with duramax's for 5 years now and it has never doubled how much I can plow.
> 
> If you think that you can take a 8' blade and plow THAT much more than an acre an hour, share you secret.


You missed the boat bub. The duramax/allison combo is super slow backing up at 18 mph get it? The doubling reference was about how slow it is.
You run your business how you want and if it means plowing like granny so be.
They must fight over working for you lol.


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## Plow man Foster (Dec 10, 2010)

sectlandscaping;1320962 said:


> My bid wouldve been over 2 bills with salt. This coming from a lawn care guy. I do think we charge a bit more up here though. I wouldnt give a church a discount either. There a business just like any other except with tax breaks.


There is actually another thread on here that ask "would you do a church for free" I wouldnt.....

If you did a good job, you will get it back. Happened to me. 
Lowballers can have them.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

tbi;1321747 said:


> You missed the boat bub. The duramax/allison combo is super slow backing up at 18 mph get it? The doubling reference was about how slow it is.
> You run your business how you want and if it means plowing like granny so be.
> They must fight over working for you lol.


I know that it is slow, but your exact quote was "We'll more than double that speed using Duramax/Allison combos".

What other conclusion could I come to?


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

tbi;1321745 said:


> 14 trucks, 1 loader and 1 backhoe.
> 8.5-9.5' Fishers and Hinikers and pushers from 10-14'.
> Some lots are upwards of 300,000 sf.


I didn't mean total of your fleet.
I was interested in what you are using on a 2 ac lot to achieve a 1 hour time. 
Thanks


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

tbi;1321745 said:


> 14 trucks, 1 loader and 1 backhoe.
> 8.5-9.5' Fishers and Hinikers and pushers from 10-14'.
> Some lots are upwards of 300,000 sf.


And some day you'll figure out that pickups are for getting coffee and you'll increase your productivity even more.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

tbi;1321704 said:


> LOL let me know when you get out of the instructional league.
> Seriously do you plow in low range to achieve those numbers?
> We'll more than double that speed using Duramax/Allison combos which have a whopping top reverse speed of about 18mph.


Yeah I'm still in training, Let me guess, your one of those guys you see ramming piles and plowing at mach 5. Actually this lot might be more on the 3 acre size. I pulled up their property and it sits on 7 acres total and the lot is about half the property. But never the less we'll all be sure to come to you for any and all questions we have from now on.


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## muffy189 (Jan 26, 2011)

that is a pretty cheap price i plow about the same amount on my church for just over double that number plus they pay for a tank a gas a week for me in my truck during the winter months and im just south of the snowbelt so i dont get the kinda snow you do in nw pa. but that guy is CRAZY for that kind of price. Ive had some people try to cut me this bidding season with my customers also but they didnt bite because some have done that and had me come back and its cost them money in the long run. lol.


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## neplow (Oct 6, 2011)

Neige;1321041 said:


> I don't think you over price your work, you are just being business smart and are able to make more than some others. It still comes down to #1 know your costs. Once you know that, what minimum margin do you want to make? This does not mean you need to charge that amount, its more a guide to I will not work for less than this. I have some contracts that pay 3 times my minimum margin, these are my keepers and protector's. I believe the second most important thing to know is what price will your market bear. If the market price is $100/hr, and you have $60/hr as a minimum margin anything over that just becomes more profitable. Now you could come in at $60/hr and get loads of work, or you can charge $95 and still get work and make loads more. This is where pricing becomes complicated, one persons costs definitely are different than an others. Some people are happy with 20% margins, and others feel 50% should be the case. When you check out what the OP said that he lost it at a $40 per push needing almost 2 hrs to push. I don't know of anyone who can make money at $20/hr with a truck and plow and the expenses that go along with that, clearly someone thinks he can, OR he has no idea about his numbers. The best example I can give is my own. My seasonals work out to around $5.00 a push, a good driver will do 50 of them an hour so he is making me $250 hr with that tractor. I know my market will not bear anything over that amount, I am actually in the higher bracket then others all around me. So in my market I am the expensive guy, to most people on here I am the lowballer. At $250/hr am I really a lowballer, or just someone who found out a way to be very efficient. I can offer a reasonable price to most people, making it very affordable to have their snow cleared. Because of this I run close to servicing 70% of the homes on a street clearing their snow. I am the only contractor that increased his price by .16 cents a push so $5.16 a push this year. It means $32 grand more than last year. (these figures come from our seasonal price of $310 for a double wide drive being serviced 60 times in the season.) Just some food for thought.


what is your overhead on a single tractor compared to profit from output? Running at 250 per hour. what is it costing per hour including purchase/depreciation, operator, insurance, maint. etc.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

merrimacmill;1321751 said:


> I know that it is slow, but your exact quote was "We'll more than double that speed using Duramax/Allison combos".
> 
> What other conclusion could I come to?


Well if you knew they were slow like you said you would know.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

REAPER;1321752 said:


> I didn't mean total of your fleet.
> I was interested in what you are using on a 2 ac lot to achieve a 1 hour time.
> Thanks


3/4 ton chevy with an 8.5 or 9.5 Hinker Vee.
I have a 1.92 acre lot with 3/4's of it fairly open a small lot and loading dock with a 4" psuh in less than an hour.
A lot of snow plowing is understanding how to move the bulk of the snow efficiently and keeping the tail chasing to a minimum IMO.
Some get it some don't.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

merrimacmill;1321751 said:


> I know that it is slow, but your exact quote was "We'll more than double that speed using Duramax/Allison combos".
> 
> What other conclusion could I come to?


I think what he's saying is, even though his trucks are VERY slow in reverse, he can still finish that 2 acre lot in a much quicker time than 2 hours.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

Brian Young;1321794 said:


> Yeah I'm still in training, Let me guess, your one of those guys you see ramming piles and plowing at mach 5. Actually this lot might be more on the 3 acre size. I pulled up their property and it sits on 7 acres total and the lot is about half the property. But never the less we'll all be sure to come to you for any and all questions we have from now on.


Maybe you should invest in a new measuriung wheel or some new ariel software before you start whining. And you have no clue what I'm about. Maybe SIMA can teach you a few things about estimating for the money you pay them.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

tbi;1322403 said:


> 3/4 ton chevy with an 8.5 or 9.5 Hinker Vee.
> I have a 1.92 acre lot with 3/4's of it fairly open a small lot and loading dock with a 4" psuh in less than an hour.
> A lot of snow plowing is understanding how to move the bulk of the snow efficiently and keeping the tail chasing to a minimum IMO.
> Some get it some don't.


Your just going to go around and around with this, just an FYI.

I'll grab the popcorn.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

JD Dave;1321762 said:


> And some day you'll figure out that pickups are for getting coffee and you'll increase your productivity even more.


LOL why waste a loader in an 80000 sf lot when they are working 2-300000sf lots?
Like I said all you resident experts have no clue what goes on anywheres other than your own backyard.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

plowguy43;1322408 said:


> Your just going to go around and around with this, just an FYI.
> 
> I'll grab the popcorn.


Sorry but it is what it is.
Every situation is different don't you agree?


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

tbi;1322413 said:


> Sorry but it is what it is.
> Every situation is different don't you agree?


Oh I agree 100%, and I don't think your off based at all. I think each business and each situation is different which is why I have a hard time with the term "lowballer". You seem to be a lowballer if you can afford to do something cheaper than someone else, then its assumed you'll do a horrible job.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

neplow;1321837 said:


> what is your overhead on a single tractor compared to profit from output? Running at 250 per hour. what is it costing per hour including purchase/depreciation, operator, insurance, maint. etc.


It costs me lots less than a pickup. Insurance, and operator costs should be the same.
Maintenance is loads cheaper, and the initial investment with a blower is around 60 grand.
I will use that tractor for 15 years, and then still get 8- 14 grand for it when I trade it in.
I have done a breakdown in the past, just don't have time now to find it for you.



tbi;1322413 said:


> Sorry but it is what it is.
> Every situation is different don't you agree?


I agree, but there are lots of similarities. TBI you are new to this site, at least when it comes to making comments. This is a great thread, and we do not need it to be closed because of a issing contest. I have met Merrimacmill, and boy does this guy know his numbers. I am truly impressed in his knowledge of his equipment times and costs. He may be young, but when he speaks its really worthwhile to listen. He does not embellish, and is a wealth of information. JD Dave is another honorable guy on this site. If you got to know him better you would have seen he was joking around. When you see his operation you can understand more why a pickup is for getting coffee, he has been sharing loads of helpful info over the years. Brian Young has been starting lots of great interesting threads with intelligent questions. I have found them to be refreshing and informative. None of these guys or others need me to stand up for them, but I thought I should say something before this disrespect gets out of hand, and we lose this thread.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

tbi;1322403 said:


> 3/4 ton chevy with an 8.5 or 9.5 Hinker Vee.
> I have a 1.92 acre lot with 3/4's of it fairly open a small lot and loading dock with a 4" psuh in less than an hour.
> A lot of snow plowing is understanding how to move the bulk of the snow efficiently and keeping the tail chasing to a minimum IMO.
> Some get it some don't.


I agree on the tail chasing I've been known to do that some because of being picky and cuss at myself every time I make a pass just to clean up a trail I left,

Open lots I agree can be done in that time I guess I don't get to many of those, although I wish I did. Most of the time it is islands, cars in the way or some other obstacle that keeps my time up.

I had a guy tell me last year he could do an ac in 25 mins with a 8' blade. I wish I had the time to watch him because I am always open to learning and getting the job done faster while still being efficient.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

plowguy43;1322419 said:


> Oh I agree 100%, and I don't think your off based at all. I think each business and each situation is different which is why I have a hard time with the term "lowballer". You seem to be a lowballer if you can afford to do something cheaper than someone else, then its assumed you'll do a horrible job.


I don't get every job I bid but sometimes you don't have to be low to get a job if you have a good reputation.
Snow plowing is a different animal than any other business. due to the timing. A day late in most operations isn't't a big deal but be an hour late snow plowing and watch the spaghetti hit the fan.
We have a customer base spanning over 50 years so we must have a clue.


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## tbi (Sep 30, 2007)

Neige;1322460 said:


> It costs me lots less than a pickup. Insurance, and operator costs should be the same.
> Maintenance is loads cheaper, and the initial investment with a blower is around 60 grand.
> I will use that tractor for 15 years, and then still get 8- 14 grand for it when I trade it in.
> I have done a breakdown in the past, just don't have time now to find it for you.
> ...


Similar but different in many ways. I would be lost for a while in others worlds while they would also be lost in mine for a while.
If you knew me you might know I'm far from taking internet banter serious. We work hard and sometimes play harder. Some have a problem with that.Thumbs Up

PS I checked out the guys you mentioned a bit. Kind small scale operations to be lecturing me IMO. But there's nothing wrong with being small. Lots of business men I know long for the days when we were smaller.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

tbi;1322479 said:


> Similar but different in many ways. I would be lost for a while in others worlds while they would also be lost in mine for a while.
> If you knew me you might know I'm far from taking internet banter serious. We work hard and sometimes play harder. Some have a problem with that.Thumbs Up
> 
> PS I checked out the guys you mentioned a bit. Kind small scale operations to be lecturing me IMO. But there's nothing wrong with being small. Lots of business men I know long for the days when we were smaller.


Your going to make LOTS of friends in here. Well sorry but I'm not impressed with your 14 trucks (probably subs) and a one whole loader and backhoe. So our "small scale" operation has a whole 5 less pieces of equipment. But look, myself and everyone else in here don't have to prove a thing to anybody. So good luck this season and be safe.


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

To the OP. It's getting pretty much pointless to plow around here anymore with the guys like the one who took that church lot from you, or the subs that will plow for $30/hr with their own truck. I can't see how anyone can make money plowing for $30/hr with their own truck... With the cost of the Truck, plow, insurance, breakdowns, depreciation, maintenance.... and what about MY TIME?! If I'm way off thinking that way, someone please explain


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

cubanb343;1322542 said:


> To the OP. It's getting pretty much pointless to plow around here anymore with the guys like the one who took that church lot from you, or the subs that will plow for $30/hr with their own truck. I can't see how anyone can make money plowing for $30/hr with their own truck... With the cost of the Truck, plow, insurance, breakdowns, depreciation, maintenance.... and what about MY TIME?! If I'm way off thinking that way, someone please explain


No your dead on! Found out we lost 2 more today. These were places we've been doing for at least 5-7 years now. One guy tried this a few years ago with mowing and two weeks later he was calling. I know the horse has been beat to death and then some but these prices are down right scary!


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