# Liquid Beet juics - staining ??



## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

I've got a sample few gallons of a liquid blend with beet juice and I'm wondering about staining. In particular will it stain; cement or brick????

So far I sprayed a little on some decent cement and asphalt and although it colored it at first the discoloring went away after the first rain. But, can/will it stain brick or new cement???


THanks!


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

I would contact the manufacturer because they are who you can go after if something happens.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

I did contact the manufacture. The typical response you get from most anyone selling anything in the snow plow industry ...... A fluff off with no facts. Shouldn't, maybe, probably, dunno.:realmad: :crying:

What I am looking for is real world experience and I'm finding that hard to find. Thanks!


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## BORIS (Oct 22, 2008)

i can tell you that if people walk through it and then walk inside it will stain carpet.


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## Deco (Nov 14, 2009)

had samples last year ....just pour some on a white t-shirt


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So what about beet juice treat bulk salt. I just took a commitment for some treat salt and they want to sell me the beet juice treat at a lower cost. I never consider staining. Stupid me. 

How about is anyone use the beet juice treated bulk salt last season or was this just a muli things last season? Come to think of it I do not remember any out cry from the motoring public. You know if someone drive there car on the road just salted with beet juice treated and it turned purple we would have heard about it. 

I do not have to take the beet juice treat it is just about $3.00 less a ton and I mix it with my untreated bulk. 

:salute:Great thread. Thanks for bringing it up.

TIA, Ron G.


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## rblake (Nov 17, 2007)

i have treated my bulk salt with beet juice for the past 7 years. never had any complaints about staining on anything. several years ago i accidently broke a shut off valve on one of the storage tanks and the beet juice came flowing out. it took several snows to eventually wash it away.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cda817;870014 said:


> I would contact the manufacturer because they are who you can go after if something happens.


You mean the farmer who grew the sugar beets?

Wonder if there are any professionals who could answer this question.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

www.crystalsugar.com


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

4evergreenlawns;870258 said:


> WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So what about beet juice treat bulk salt. I just took a commitment for some treat salt and they want to sell me the beet juice treat at a lower cost. I never consider staining. Stupid me.
> 
> How about is anyone use the beet juice treated bulk salt last season or was this just a muli things last season? Come to think of it I do not remember any out cry from the motoring public. You know if someone drive there car on the road just salted with beet juice treated and it turned purple we would have heard about it.
> 
> ...


My understanding of treated bulk salt is they spray it with a carbohydrate ( sugar ) to make it sticky for the mag chloride ( or what ever their mixture is ) to adhere and start quicker when it hit's moisture. The purple stuff I believe is corn based and colored purple with a non-staining dye. That is what I got for info from one vendor - but, to ask them to put it in righting ... never happen.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

cda817;870014 said:


> I would contact the manufacturer because they are who you can go after if something happens.


Yep those farmers are EVIL !

Last time I checked beets were purple, but then again I dont care to eat them so maybe there are some hybrid ones out with purple dye added.

The juice is a byproduct from the canning process. Beets have sugar in them naturally, especially "sugar beets".

Pour some Magic -0 on a shirt and see if it stains ? When you apply Magic to a lot it looks like someone emptied there slurry, yet it works 
If you spray walks it will track as well till it starts to dillute.

If you intend to spray straight beet juice you may have staining issues, treated salt, or a blend like most companys like SNI sell do not.

Scott who is selling beet juice in IL besides SNI ?


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

I'm trying a few gallons of Triple Melt from ConservFS. I believe there are three salts and beet juice.

I have a few areas that I would really benefit from applying pre-treatment so, I'm hoping the stuff works and there is no staining of the brick work. The area is a mix of new and old cement along with new brick.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

scottL;871456 said:


> I'm trying a few gallons of Triple Melt from ConservFS. I believe there are three salts and beet juice.
> 
> I have a few areas that I would really benefit from applying pre-treatment so, I'm hoping the stuff works and there is no staining of the brick work. The area is a mix of new and old cement along with new brick.


ConservFS is who is offering the beet juice treated bulk. I guess I will give it a try and see what is does.

I have Triple Melt bag salt from ConservFS, I have been using on walk no isssues not sure it is the same product or just a product name.

Ron G


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

I'm using their ice age bagged for walks. I think I remember them saying the bagged triple melt is the same minus the beet juice and liquid form.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

How much per gallon from conserv ?


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

T-MAN;871860 said:


> How much per gallon from conserv ?


I only bought a 5 gallon trial size unit. But, I believe that cost me like $27 ( not sure though ). Two gallon poly sprayer and the whole trial will cost under $50 and should work out to something like 10-15 bags of salt, maybe. My goal right now is only for sidewalk pre-treat as my trial.

I'm also sure if your a long term customer or buy a lot from them the price will reflect that.


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## SnowMatt13 (Jan 8, 2003)

I blend GeoMelt55 (beet juice from SNI) with my salt brine and use it in anti-icing and pre-wetting application on paved and concrete roads....no staining....it washes off, or I should say mother nature washes it off. It's residual is good, but once that is gone there is not stain.


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

SnowMatt13;872240 said:


> I blend GeoMelt55 (beet juice from SNI) with my salt brine and use it in anti-icing and pre-wetting application on paved and concrete roads....no staining....it washes off, or I should say mother nature washes it off. It's residual is good, but once that is gone there is not stain.


I've used GeoMelt55 as well with the same results on pavement and walks. Although it washes off of pavement and walks, it will stain clothes


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

scottL;872215 said:


> I only bought a 5 gallon trial size unit. But, I believe that cost me like $27 ( not sure though ). Two gallon poly sprayer and the whole trial will cost under $50 and should work out to something like 10-15 bags of salt, maybe. My goal right now is only for sidewalk pre-treat as my trial.
> 
> I'm also sure if your a long term customer or buy a lot from them the price will reflect that.


At that price I would use Magic -0.
I do some business with Conserv in Wauconda, but I am by no means going to get the heavy hitter discount like Ron 
Was hopping to find an cheaper alternative to the Ice Ban I use for pre-wet, that only cost me 1.25 a gallon. 
Any one know were there is any IL/Wi sugar beet farms, and a canning plant ?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

T-MAN;872426 said:


> Any one know were there is any IL/Wi sugar beet farms, and a canning plant ?


Now you have the right idea.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*sugar beet juice*



T-MAN;872426 said:


> At that price I would use Magic -0.
> I do some business with Conserv in Wauconda, but I am by no means going to get the heavy hitter discount like Ron
> Was hopping to find an cheaper alternative to the Ice Ban I use for pre-wet, that only cost me 1.25 a gallon.
> Any one know were there is any IL/Wi sugar beet farms, and a canning plant ?


====================================================================
About Sugar Beet Juice:

It is the waste water and beet juice waste from the sugar refining process- no different than sugar cane waste water juice. It is a waste product and typically it is either dumped into the sanitary sewer system and treated at the sewage treatment plant or pumped in to waste water storage lagoons in the property where the sugar refinery is located.

I believe the waste beet juice is centrifuged a second time after the first refining of the raw sugar syrup to remove the floating solids and then packaged for sale.

1. The closest sugar beet farms and sugar refineries to you are in Rennville, Minnesota

operating as the Southern Minnesota Beet Sugar Cooperative or:The Michigan Sugar

Company which is a farmer owned cooperative with one of several sugar refineries in

Crosswell, Michigan which receive sugar beets from both local sugar beet farmers and a large group of

Ontario, Canada sugar beet farmers.

2. The red table beets are nothing like sugar beets other than being root crops. The pickling of the table beets enhances there purple color.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

T-MAN;872426 said:


> At that price I would use Magic -0.
> I do some business with Conserv in Wauconda, but I am by no means going to get the heavy hitter discount like Ron
> Was hopping to find an cheaper alternative to the Ice Ban I use for pre-wet, that only cost me 1.25 a gallon.
> Any one know were there is any IL/Wi sugar beet farms, and a canning plant ?


Todd,

If it helps I could check on pricing for you and if the price point is right I could put it on my account and just have you pick it up Wauconda and I will just direct bill you at cost. Let me know how much you are looking for.

I just did the same with a truck load of salt for a local guy that only needed 12 pallets but really needed to get a low price point. Even though that leaves me with 6 pallets that i most likely will not need I am sure I will find someone else that will need them. Quantity discounts help for the Farm burea check is what is nice.

Ron G.


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

I am sorry for those of you would call someone without direct product knowledge unprofessional. However, I offered my "Professional Opinion" on the steps that I take when I am interested in utilizing a new product. If that product is for sale then there must have been some level of product testing done and there must be an MSDS sheet for it as well. Also beet farmer or not if someone cannot tell me what it can or cannot do, or it may or may not damage a surface, then I will not use it. Your clients hold you directly responsible for everything you do and telling one of my clients "don't worry once it is diluted down it won't stain your floors" is not an option.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

cda817;873820 said:


> I am sorry for those of you would call someone without direct product knowledge unprofessional. However, I offered my "Professional Opinion" on the steps that I take when I am interested in utilizing a new product. If that product is for sale then there must have been some level of product testing done and there must be an MSDS sheet for it as well. Also beet farmer or not if someone cannot tell me what it can or cannot do, or it may or may not damage a surface, then I will not use it. Your clients hold you directly responsible for everything you do and telling one of my clients "don't worry once it is diluted down it won't stain your floors" is not an option.


Very well Said!

Ron G


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

I agree. I am tired of paying and being forced to buy on marketing hype. My tail is on the line ... why are there's not?!!?

As for the beet juice alone......It's just a carbo which was intended to A) allow the salt to act quicker by causing a reaction based on moisture, slight variance on the re-freeze temp value add B) to be used as a bonding agent to allow other chlorides to connect with halite and to trigger quicker when put into action. At most claims have been that is helps keep the bonds from forming into ice for longer once the snow/ice has been turned into liquid.

Dunno ... no one official has any true data. So, I'm glad I only bought a trial and will test in hidden areas.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

scottL;874468 said:


> I agree. I am tired of paying and being forced to buy on marketing hype. My tail is on the line ... why are there's not?!!?
> 
> As for the beet juice alone......It's just a carbo which was intended to A) allow the salt to act quicker by causing a reaction based on moisture, slight variance on the re-freeze temp value add B) to be used as a bonding agent to allow other chlorides to connect with halite and to trigger quicker when put into action. At most claims have been that is helps keep the bonds from forming into ice for longer once the snow/ice has been turned into liquid.
> 
> Dunno ... no one official has any true data. So, I'm glad I only bought a trial and will test in hidden areas.


I can give you data. I used 4500+ gallons of beet juice last year.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Comrade! How did you use the juice? Did you spray it on other salt, use it straight on the ground, ?????


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

We treated every load of bulk salt we got the second half of last season, (700 tons +) and never heard a single complaint from a customer about it tracking inside the building, or staining parking lots.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Longae29;875644 said:


> We treated every load of bulk salt we got the second half of last season, (700 tons +) and never heard a single complaint from a customer about it tracking inside the building, or staining parking lots.


Now that is the kind of feedback that make a site like this well worth the time spent reading.

Thank you.

Ron G


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

scottL;875616 said:


> Comrade! How did you use the juice? Did you spray it on other salt, use it straight on the ground, ?????





4evergreenlawns;875673 said:


> Now that is the kind of feedback that make a site like this well worth the time spent reading.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Ron G


Don't you guys read your PM's? 

Like I said, I have used a bunch and will PM you my findings.

Unfortunately, I will not make them public because there is a scumbag, ball dragging idiot bidding stuff at $55\hour\truck that also reads these forums.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Mark, 

I got your PM and if you say it is all good that is enough for me. Just nice to see also trying to post something that could be helpful in the area he is in.

Ron G

Gobble, Gobble, Gobble=== Wabble, wabble, wabble........


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

4evergreenlawns;876046 said:


> Gobble, Gobble, Gobble=== Wabble, wabble, wabble........


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

4evergreenlawns;876046 said:


> Mark,
> 
> I got your PM and if you say it is all good that is enough for me. Just nice to see also trying to post something that could be helpful in the area he is in.
> 
> ...


I would really like to post my experiences with this, but I have found that a local 'competitor' aka John Allin wannabe who is pricing plowing at far less than half what I used to also reads these forums, so I will not publicly post that info. It will come out in the end, but I am not giving it for free.

PS scottL PM'ed me, so I will be sending the same info to him as well.


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## ChlorideGuy (Nov 24, 2008)

If your going to spray liquid why mess with beat juice and then salt .I cant see any savings there? Why not use Minerial well brine and only spray one time-for the same results?


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

ChlorideGuy;882103 said:


> If your going to spray liquid why mess with beat juice and then salt .I cant see any savings there? Why not use Minerial well brine and only spray one time-for the same results?


I dont think anyone is spraying beet juice then applying salt. the spraying is done pretreat, sometimes. Then beet juice treated salt, or salt sprayed at the spinner is applied after plowing.
Beet juice looks to have a bright future IMO, and I look forward to testing some this season.
It takes a big tank for de-icing with straight liquids. So for a smaller operation, de-icing several acres may mean several trips to the shop.


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

A few words about "beet juice" ...it is the carbohydrates that remain after the de-sugaring of the sugar beet (has nothing to do with red garden beets and does not stain). It is not a waste product. The sugar industry calls this refined end product a "raffinate" and is a valuable additive to cattle feed, etc. The only difference between food grade and "the road salt additive" is that it's not shipped in a steralized container. Beet juice is an agricultural by-product that has extremely tiny anti-icing solids. Beet juice is never added directly to the pavement - it always is added to salt or to brine, developing a synergy that makes the combined product work better than either of the two can do by themselves. Beet juice is NOT "chloride technology". All "chloride technology" works! Beet juice and salt or brine just work differently. The main reason beet juice is used is "residual-effect". It forms a thin film that hardpack cannot stick to - plowing gets real easy, regardless of how much traffic is on it. Additionally, it makes the road no more slippery than "just a wet road". All winter liquids cut down on "bounce & scatter" allowing you to cut salt output. Beet juice is a tremoundous corrosion inhibitor, environmentally friendly, and dramatically lowers the working temp of salt or brine. The "residual effect" IS the difference between cost of product and cost-to-use!


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Winterologist;886873 said:


> A few words about "beet juice" ...it is the carbohydrates that remain after the de-sugaring of the sugar beet (has nothing to do with red garden beets and does not stain). It is not a waste product. The sugar industry calls this refined end product a "raffinate" and is a valuable additive to cattle feed, etc. The only difference between food grade and "the road salt additive" is that it's not shipped in a steralized container. Beet juice is an agricultural by-product that has extremely tiny anti-icing solids. Beet juice is never added directly to the pavement - it always is added to salt or to brine, developing a synergy that makes the combined product work better than either of the two can do by themselves. Beet juice is NOT "chloride technology". All "chloride technology" works! Beet juice and salt or brine just work differently. The main reason beet juice is used is "residual-effect". It forms a thin film that hardpack cannot stick to - plowing gets real easy, regardless of how much traffic is on it. Additionally, it makes the road no more slippery than "just a wet road". All winter liquids cut down on "bounce & scatter" allowing you to cut salt output. Beet juice is a tremoundous corrosion inhibitor, environmentally friendly, and dramatically lowers the working temp of salt or brine. The "residual effect" IS the difference between cost of product and cost-to-use!


You get the Great Post award!  :salute:


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

*Beet Juice Facts*

...just keeping the facts clear about beet juice, there is so much misinformation out there. You'll make better, more informed decisions once you cut through the clutter and get to the facts.


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## ChlorideGuy (Nov 24, 2008)

Well said!!!!! I like the part about lowering the temp that salt brine will work.. i wounder if it will lower it for calcium chloride well brine? Do you have any thoughts?


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

*Beet Juice & Calcium-Mag Brines*

Natural well brines in Michigan are abundant and contain all of the natural occurring "chlorides" with the predominate chloride usually being calcium - followed by mag, sodium, potassium, etc. As such, Cal-Mag brines have very low "working temps" and work well for anti-icing & prewetting at the spinner. Temps in the Upper Midwest are typically never so cold that these brines won't work. The issue becomes "DOS" - dilution-of-solution. Cal-Mag brines will continue to brine out & dilute out at much lower temps than rock salt (or brines made from rock salt) that, in short order, what's on the pavement is more melted ice (water) than "chloride" - result: refreeze issues = potential re-application issues. All "chloride brine technology" can be enhanced with beet juice (although I'm not sure about mixing it with other "proprietary-blends" of calcium or mag chloride technology as interactions with surfactants, emulsifiers, etc may interfere). In the case of calcium-magnesium brines, it not so much a matter of getting the brine to work at even lower temps, it's a matter of helping to overcome the re-freeze issue as it now has become slippery again AND bonded to the pavement. Beet Juice forms a film on the pavement that hard-pack can't stick to, making plowing much easier. Traffic is also safer since they are traveling on the pavement - not on the hard-pack stuck to the pavement. Beet juice is only a tool, but when used correctly, it's hard to beat!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Winterologist;889959 said:


> Natural well brines in Michigan are abundant and contain all of the natural occurring "chlorides" with the predominate chloride usually being calcium - followed by mag, sodium, potassium, etc. As such, Cal-Mag brines have very low "working temps" and work well for anti-icing & prewetting at the spinner. Temps in the Upper Midwest are typically never so cold that these brines won't work. The issue becomes "DOS" - dilution-of-solution. Cal-Mag brines will continue to brine out & dilute out at much lower temps than rock salt (or brines made from rock salt) that, in short order, what's on the pavement is more melted ice (water) than "chloride" - result: refreeze issues = potential re-application issues. All "chloride brine technology" can be enhanced with beet juice (although I'm not sure about mixing it with other "proprietary-blends" of calcium or mag chloride technology as interactions with surfactants, emulsifiers, etc may interfere). In the case of calcium-magnesium brines, it not so much a matter of getting the brine to work at even lower temps, it's a matter of helping to overcome the re-freeze issue as it now has become slippery again AND bonded to the pavement. Beet Juice forms a film on the pavement that hard-pack can't stick to, making plowing much easier. Traffic is also safer since they are traveling on the pavement - not on the hard-pack stuck to the pavement. Beet juice is only a tool, but when used correctly, it's hard to beat!


I was going to say that, but I guess I don't have to now.

And you are much more eloquent than I.

What's your thoughts on salt harming concrete? :laughing:


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

*Salt Damage On Concrete*

Salt damage on concrete - let's move the topic to "salt brine" on concrete. Why? Rock salt does nothing on the pavement until activated by moisture (rain-snow-ice). It quickly starts to brine-out making that 23.3% solution that everybody hears about - and it's doing it on it's own. Brine does all the hard work on the pavement, not salt. Taking it from there, a recent 6 year, 10 State pooled-fund study was conducted by Dr Larry Sutter at Michigan Tech on "Deleterious Effects Of Common Deicers On Cement". This is the most comprehensive, in-depth scientific study on "chloride-technology" deicers to date. Brines from Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Chloride, Rock Salt (Sodium Chloride) and CMA (Calcium Mag Acetate) were studied. The results reveal how the Magnesium and Calcium ions interfere and attack the concrete matrix. Also, token amounts of organics added to "proprietary blends" of mostly magnesium or calcium chloride brines only slowed down the inevitable - it didn't stop it. Oddly, the most benign deicer on concrete proved to be rock salt brine, although it was noted that it however, does attack metal rebar, etc. Adding beet juice to salt brine cuts it's corrosion factor by almost 70% ...a real plus if you have to pay for something like a bridge-deck as municipalities do. The study was done across the Upper Midwest and East using common deicers as purchased in those markets and used in the concentrations most commonly used. Still, all of the chloride-technology is too valuable to the motoring public and it's continued use will be with us for years to come. Contractors are starting to embrace some of the newer technology. It's just a matter of making it work in YOUR winter program - one step at a time. As a side note, at this year's APWA Snow Show in Des Moines, IA, several municipalities were discussing the fact that adding beet juice to their winter program somehow decreased the amount of pot-holes to repair immediately after winter's wrath. It was surmised that because the beet juice lasts alittle longer on the pavement, it decreased the number of freeze-thaw cycles the pavement goes through thereby lessening the overall stress in asphalt paving. Several different entities claimed to be seeing similar results, although no scientific studies have been done to my knowledge.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;890005 said:


> you are much more eloquent than I. and still make a point.:laughing:




Thanks Winterologist. I had half a dozen questions about liquids. Your last 5 posts, I believe, cleared them up along with clappers thread.

What happened to the rating tool?


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

Rating tool? ...please explain.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Winterologist;891223 said:


> Rating tool? ...please explain.


Up until some time this year there was a thread rating tool on Plow Site where users could rate the threads.


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

...I'm sorry, I wasn't familiar with the rating tool. There is more information that you may be interested in posted at "Winter Liquids".


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Winterologist;890118 said:


> Salt damage on concrete - let's move the topic to "salt brine" on concrete. Why? Rock salt does nothing on the pavement until activated by moisture (rain-snow-ice). It quickly starts to brine-out making that 23.3% solution that everybody hears about - and it's doing it on it's own. Brine does all the hard work on the pavement, not salt. Taking it from there, a recent 6 year, 10 State pooled-fund study was conducted by Dr Larry Sutter at Michigan Tech on "Deleterious Effects Of Common Deicers On Cement". This is the most comprehensive, in-depth scientific study on "chloride-technology" deicers to date. Brines from Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Chloride, Rock Salt (Sodium Chloride) and CMA (Calcium Mag Acetate) were studied. The results reveal how the Magnesium and Calcium ions interfere and attack the concrete matrix. Also, token amounts of organics added to "proprietary blends" of mostly magnesium or calcium chloride brines only slowed down the inevitable - it didn't stop it. Oddly, the most benign deicer on concrete proved to be rock salt brine, although it was noted that it however, does attack metal rebar, etc. Adding beet juice to salt brine cuts it's corrosion factor by almost 70% ...a real plus if you have to pay for something like a bridge-deck as municipalities do. The study was done across the Upper Midwest and East using common deicers as purchased in those markets and used in the concentrations most commonly used. Still, all of the chloride-technology is too valuable to the motoring public and it's continued use will be with us for years to come. Contractors are starting to embrace some of the newer technology. It's just a matter of making it work in YOUR winter program - one step at a time. As a side note, at this year's APWA Snow Show in Des Moines, IA, several municipalities were discussing the fact that adding beet juice to their winter program somehow decreased the amount of pot-holes to repair immediately after winter's wrath. It was surmised that because the beet juice lasts alittle longer on the pavement, it decreased the number of freeze-thaw cycles the pavement goes through thereby lessening the overall stress in asphalt paving. Several different entities claimed to be seeing similar results, although no scientific studies have been done to my knowledge.


IllPlowYou isn't going to like you.



Bajak;891115 said:


> Thanks Winterologist. I had half a dozen questions about liquids. Your last 5 posts, I believe, cleared them up along with clappers thread.
> 
> What happened to the rating tool?


Funny guy.

Ha, ha ha


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;892859 said:


> IllPlowYou isn't going to like you.


Pass the popcorn would ya?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cretebaby;892872 said:


> Pass the popcorn would ya?


Extra butter and salt? :waving:


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Winterologist;890118 said:


> Salt damage on concrete - let's move the topic to "salt brine" on concrete. Why? Rock salt does nothing on the pavement until activated by moisture (rain-snow-ice). It quickly starts to brine-out making that 23.3% solution that everybody hears about - and it's doing it on it's own. Brine does all the hard work on the pavement, not salt. Taking it from there, a recent 6 year, 10 State pooled-fund study was conducted by Dr Larry Sutter at Michigan Tech on "Deleterious Effects Of Common Deicers On Cement". This is the most comprehensive, in-depth scientific study on "chloride-technology" deicers to date. Brines from Calcium Chloride, Magnesium Chloride, Rock Salt (Sodium Chloride) and CMA (Calcium Mag Acetate) were studied. The results reveal how the Magnesium and Calcium ions interfere and attack the concrete matrix. Also, token amounts of organics added to "proprietary blends" of mostly magnesium or calcium chloride brines only slowed down the inevitable - it didn't stop it. Oddly, the most benign deicer on concrete proved to be rock salt brine, although it was noted that it however, does attack metal rebar, etc. Adding beet juice to salt brine cuts it's corrosion factor by almost 70% ...a real plus if you have to pay for something like a bridge-deck as municipalities do. The study was done across the Upper Midwest and East using common deicers as purchased in those markets and used in the concentrations most commonly used. Still, all of the chloride-technology is too valuable to the motoring public and it's continued use will be with us for years to come. Contractors are starting to embrace some of the newer technology. It's just a matter of making it work in YOUR winter program - one step at a time. As a side note, at this year's APWA Snow Show in Des Moines, IA, several municipalities were discussing the fact that adding beet juice to their winter program somehow decreased the amount of pot-holes to repair immediately after winter's wrath. It was surmised that because the beet juice lasts alittle longer on the pavement, it decreased the number of freeze-thaw cycles the pavement goes through thereby lessening the overall stress in asphalt paving. Several different entities claimed to be seeing similar results, although no scientific studies have been done to my knowledge.


Some-one that makes sense......illplowyou come-out, come-out, wherever you are..I need to hear the rebuttle.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

> :....illplowyou come-out, come-out, wherever you are..I need to hear the rebuttle.


Ya where you at?

I got some pictures you might enjoy.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

cretebaby;892921 said:


> Ya where you at?
> 
> I got some pictures you might enjoy.


I guess we can't get him out of the hole he crawled back into..


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Matson Snow;892928 said:


> I guess we can't get him out of the hole he crawled back into..


That may not be a bad thing.


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## Bporter (Aug 29, 2007)

I was wondering is there anyone that has recieved the salt with the beet juice in it and if so how did if flow through you hoppers and what type of spreaders or you using. I am courise cause my supplier is asking me if I would be intrested in trying this salt cause he said it helps big time with cacking.

Thanks


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

I just oredered two loads of beet juice treated bulk for Monday. With this first event lasting about 3 days and a few salting before that I used up some of last season supply and will start to re-stock. 

While talking with a couple of local guys the Beet Juice treated bulk came up and they were talking about about BAD it smells. I never really thought about smell. None of the other de-iceing products I have was inthe past ever have any odor to them. So why would beet juice treated??? Could just be a myth I will know for sure soon enough. 

Just wondering if anyone has noticed a smell coming off their beet juice treated. I keep about 250tons of bulk in my bin between seasons for a coupe of reasons and I would hate to have some foul smell in my yard all summer. BTW, got into the pile where I had some Slicer mixed from last season and that really made a differentence with the flash freeze we just had this storm with temps going from mid 30's to -20 wild chill in 18 hours after a heavy wet snow. 

Thanks, Ron G


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

Straight beet juice can be applied as a pile treatment or at the spinner through a "prewetter". If pile treating, only a front-end loader is needed (vs the prewetter equipment). Pile treated salt will not cake-up, in fact, it will de-lump salt in the pile. As long as rain & snow are kept off the pile, it will stay usable for years. The face of the pile will loose that deep tan color over time as moisture in the air slowly washes the beet juice from the face of the pile (and it may even get alittle crusty on the exposed side of the pile, but, typically only a few inches in, the material looks as if you treated it yesterday - maintains its color and effectiveness. It should be noted that overhead-shower-type-spraying a pile of salt with beet juice will NOT work. Unlike all brines (all their "solids" are dissolved), beet juice is high in "solids-content" (55% is standard) and will not penetrait through the pile. A typical pile treatment starts by "raking-out" salt with a front-end loader - in the form of a shallow bowl or pizza pan. Then applying beet juice @ 5-6 gal/ton, go have a cup of coffee, come back in 20-30 minutes (finding that the juice only sunk in less than a foot) and start folding the juice into the pile like making bread. Many times, I've seen 50-100 tons raked-out, beet juice applied, rolled-up and put back in the barn in 2.5 - 3 hours. I've also seen a special injection pipe used to spear the pile in 2-4 locations and inject beet juice (pumped) at the same rate, thereby eliminating the "rake-out" time and speed material into the center of the pile and cutting the mix time in half. Pile treating with beet juice eliminates clumping at the spinner, flows nicely, all comes out of your truck, cuts corrosion on your equipment by 70%, cuts bounce & scatter, is environmentally friendly, and Oh Yeh - cut your salt output by 20-30% ...then learn to read "residual effect"!


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

Beet juice has a odor, it comes from carbohydrates in the de-sugared sugar beet. For most people the odor is not an issue. Some have said it smells like molasses, burnt coffee, Earthy-smell, etc ...everybody has a different sensitivity level of detecting things in the air. While straight beet juice in a heated garage 40-70F might be objectionable to most, there are typically NO complaints at the temps you'll be using treated salt at (30F and lower). I've seen it put down at City Halls on parking lots and sidewalks with no complaints what-so-ever. Don't over-apply ...usually 300 lb / acre is plenty, and apply early in the storm - before hardpack has formed. Some, with a real acute sence of smell, will use beet juice treated salt everywhere except the last 20-30 ft up to the door or entrance to minimize anything that might get tracked in.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

4evergreenlawns;902182 said:


> I just oredered two loads of beet juice treated bulk for Monday. With this first event lasting about 3 days and a few salting before that I used up some of last season supply and will start to re-stock.
> 
> While talking with a couple of local guys the Beet Juice treated bulk came up and they were talking about about BAD it smells. I never really thought about smell. None of the other de-iceing products I have was inthe past ever have any odor to them. So why would beet juice treated??? Could just be a myth I will know for sure soon enough.
> 
> ...


Winterologist hit it pretty much dead on Ron.

It does stink, but not when spread out.

And it will stink at first, but it does seem to disappear over time. I had some in my bin all summer and didn't have a problem with it.



Winterologist;902190 said:


> Straight beet juice can be applied as a pile treatment or at the spinner through a "prewetter". If pile treating, only a front-end loader is needed (vs the prewetter equipment). Pile treated salt will not cake-up, in fact, it will de-lump salt in the pile. As long as rain & snow are kept off the pile, it will stay usable for years. The face of the pile will loose that deep tan color over time as moisture in the air slowly washes the beet juice from the face of the pile (and it may even get alittle crusty on the exposed side of the pile, but, typically only a few inches in, the material looks as if you treated it yesterday - maintains its color and effectiveness. It should be noted that overhead-shower-type-spraying a pile of salt with beet juice will NOT work. Unlike all brines (all their "solids" are dissolved), beet juice is high in "solids-content" (55% is standard) and will not penetrait through the pile. A typical pile treatment starts by "raking-out" salt with a front-end loader - in the form of a shallow bowl or pizza pan. Then applying beet juice @ 5-6 gal/ton, go have a cup of coffee, come back in 20-30 minutes (finding that the juice only sunk in less than a foot) and start folding the juice into the pile like making bread. Many times, I've seen 50-100 tons raked-out, beet juice applied, rolled-up and put back in the barn in 2.5 - 3 hours.* I've also seen a special injection pipe used to spear the pile in 2-4 locations and inject beet juice (pumped) at the same rate, thereby eliminating the "rake-out" time and speed material into the center of the pile and cutting the mix time in half.* Pile treating with beet juice eliminates clumping at the spinner, flows nicely, all comes out of your truck, cuts corrosion on your equipment by 70%, cuts bounce & scatter, is environmentally friendly, and Oh Yeh - cut your salt output by 20-30% ...then learn to read "residual effect"!


Any pics of the bold faced type?

I like that idea, especially if it cuts that much time out of mixing it.

Excellent posts, BTW, much better than I'llPlowYou.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;902229 said:


> Winterologist hit it pretty much dead on Ron.
> 
> It does stink, but not when spread out.
> 
> ...


These are Excellent Posts..This is why i come here is to learn from guys that know their stuff..Thanks to winterologest and all you guys that know their stuff..Yes you to Mark


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Mark,

Thanks, I am not sure how much treated I will keep on have over the summer. I slip the bin during the season. In the start of the season I have mostly just bulk, I start using the pile off on end clearing a spot for the treated to be hauled in and then I mix it depending on the conidtion so I can run everything from just bulk to a mix to all treated. As the season goes on I reduce the treated an re-stock with just bulk. You get the idea I am sure.

_*I've also seen a special injection pipe used to spear the pile in 2-4 locations and inject beet juice (pumped) at the same rate, thereby eliminating the "rake-out" time and speed material into the center of the pile and cutting the mix time in half.*_

This is how Tovar treats their on site piles. They drop plain bulk and have a large like 1000 gallon liquid truck go around and treat the piles as needed or depending on when the client pays for. I can tell you this process as with type of application ALL depends on the applicator. I would say it is like a deep root feeding process.

Also a thanks to Winterologist for all the great well supported information posted in this thread. I think the rating system used here is at the bottom of the post not sure...I do not get rated muh and if I did I think it would be a 3 or 4 digit minus number.....

Ron G.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

OK...

I had started this thread and finally got to try out my 5 gallon sample. Thank God I didn't not invest in this snake oil.

I purchased from Conserv FS a liquid product called Tripple Melt. I performed a few test areas; Cement, Asphalt and brick.

I tried once as a pre-treatment soacking the ground..... Wait for 1 " of snow. The different between these spots and the non-treated could not have been even 1/10" of an inch difference if any.

For applying on top of snow at 1/2" I had better results from my other sample ..... a Glass of water.

The company said ....WELL ya Know ... it's a good thing you tested with a small sample before you bought a bunch ( ya no duh ). Also it does require heavy, heavy foot traffic or better applied to lane traffic which has heavy wheel traffic.

It was originally sold as not requiring this type of action and I have salt products which are easier to deal with and require no work in period.

Buyer Beware ..... I can only see this stuff as being valuable as a delivery wetter at the chute to quickly activate the rock salt. Otherwise, no thanks.

BTW ... No staining took place.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Scott, 

I can say I have been buying product from Conserv FS for about 5 seasons now. Before that I can tell you I was in the Chicago pricing cycle. You know the one where salt in NOV/DEC was like $45.00 a ton and then in JAN there would be a shortage on salt so the price would got to like $90. BUT when you agreed to the higher price somehow they could deliver 5 load in a hour EVEN with the SHORTAGE. I think this is called gauging!!!!

I deal with Jeff Miller and he has never given me bad info and to date has NEVER left me without product in my bin. Even when there really was no salt in the Chicago market he got me salt from where every he had to in order to fill my bin. Also they are the ONLY one that will give me a WRITTEN price commitment. 

As for the product you used. For sidewalks I am using a product also called Triple Melt in 50lbs bagged form. Before I switch to this I was using Lesco Melt II and love it. It had a great burn in all conditions stayred on traget and I never had any turf damage not tracking complaints. Since John Deer had the great idea to drop the Lesco Melt II I switched to this Triple Melt in bags. To date is has worked well. Not sure if it is even close to whatever the 5gallons of liquid you used was but I am just saying that in my experience with ConservFS and Jeff Miller I have NEVER be given anything short of the most professional level of product knowledge and he has never tried to sell me nor has he ever delivered me anything I did not ask for or anything that has ot gotten the job done. 

Liquids are tricky that is for sure. If I was to do any testing I think it would have to be in a larger sampling of far more then 5 gallons. I think if you did during this last event with the huge changes in the condition in both moisture levels and ground to air temp shifts I think you might have not gotten a real measureable outcome. I have seen some of the liquid treated lots where a liquid treatment truck has done a applicaiton and it too has a wide range of outcomes. 

It has taken me 3 season to really learn the bennifit of a treated bulk product and with cost and apparance driving the market I am not 100% sold on Liquid yet but I can see a tank in one of my trucks soon, Just waiting for all the experiementing to be done and for some better data at to when and how to best deploy liquid at a de-icing agent and not replacing the use if bulk but extending the level of service to cleint that are looking for Zero Tolereanc service level. This season would not be one to even consider this with PRICE POINT being the only driving force behind service levels. 

Just my thoughts. Sorry to hear you wasted your time. Give it some more consideration I know I have been really watching what is going on the past two seasons and I see MORE and MORE tanks out on the road. My question to everyone I see with a saddle tank has ben how often do you use liquid and what are you using. I get a wide mix of replies. Too broad to even start a data base that would result in a measure outcome. 

Ron G.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Ron G,

Good info.... I have also heard good things about your Conserv FS guy - Jeff. I was pushed to a different office because of my site location.

The Triple Melt bagged product seems decent. Their Zero Melt simply rocks through ice and snow pack like mini-dynamite. The only down side I think is around re-freeze. I think triple melt might be better in guard for that but, I'm not sure yet. Their ice age product is ok for sidewalks but, it really doesn't have a good kick ... I think it would an awesome step up from simply rock salt but, the price need to come down a dollar to be a fair alternative and upgrade.

As for the two triple melts .... they claim the only diff is the liquid/beet juice. But, it seems like molasses to me. I am still very interested in this approach ... maybe a different blend would get me what I want.

There has been some GREAT info in this section and as time is available I would like to experiment and see what can be made up in a consistent manor and a reasonable price.


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

*Pile Treating Beet Juice Via Probe*

Pile Treating Beet Juice Via Probe ...note beet juice is under pressure, pumped on and into pile using 5hp pump. Turn pump off BEFORE relocating probe so that you're not wearing beet juice. Pile must be turned to complete the mixing process. Injecting beet juice saves time, labor & fuel - cuts it about in half.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Beet juice treated which they are calling "Thunder Melt" arrived yesterday. Yes, it have an odor to it but I would hardly say it smelled or stinks. I will say it was a very nice size grain and I am looking forward to using it. Looks like we might be getting some snow with sub zero temps behind it so I will get a chanc real soon to see how effective it is. 

Thanks again for all the help from those with experince with this type of product. I will do the same and pass on my findings. All the lots we are servicing are lots we hav been on for the past 3 seasons. I have some good data on salt usage and condition. Lets see how the "Thunder Melt" pans out. 

Ron G.


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## Extremes... (Jan 9, 2010)

*Film Effect?*

Hi Winterologist and everyone,
This "film" is very intriguing, as you said:
"Beet Juice forms a film on the pavement that hard-pack can't stick to, making plowing much easier. "
Film that is not slippery, does not freeze. Very nice!

Do you have any more information on this "film effect" related to beet juice (or any additive)? For example, agency contacts (I think you mentioned a City in Ohio), field studies, etc. Folks are having luck with beet juice, molasses, LCS, etc in the ND/SD/MN area, but I have not seen any studies specifically on the "film" case (some vendor ads mention it) but looking for evidence, you know.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Extremes...;950986 said:


> Hi Winterologist and everyone,
> This "film" is very intriguing, as you said:
> "Beet Juice forms a film on the pavement that hard-pack can't stick to, making plowing much easier. "
> Film that is not slippery, does not freeze. Very nice!
> ...


I'm intrigued also. I too would like to learn more about the film effect from actual studies and observations from those with field experience under various conditions.


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

Much of today's "beet juice" technology is based on the original Bloomer patent "Anti-freezing and deicing composition and method, Bloomer - June, 2000 - #6080330"
It's use as a "winter-tool" has continued to be used, refined and re-defined. This material is, what the sugar industry calls, a "raffinate - not molasses! Molasses pumps like putty at 5F - raffinates continue to get thicker but will flow at temps well below zero. A recent Google Search of "beet juice and road salt got over 29,000 hits. Articles abound from the snowbelt of the US to Canada and Europe. Much of the earlier information seems to come from the Midwest where it all started. Most articles don't mention brand names, rather simply calling it "beet juice" / sugar beet juice / sugar beet by-products / de-sugared beet juice etc. Some articles get it completely wrong by talking about sugar beets but showing red garden beets = two completely different crops. Sugar beet juice is NOT red, does NOT stain. The writers feeding this kind of misinformation should do a modest amount of research before they create the hysteria in their viewers / readers. So misinformation about beet juice is everywhere. Many articles are written about an agency about to start using this newer technology - few write about it after agencies have used it, especially for several years. Feb 2009, Michigan LTAP (Local Technical Assistance Program, every State has one) hosted a webnar as seen by almost 600 professional snowfighters at 191 agencies in 19 States called: "Deicing-Best Practices". This webinar was wildly successful and repeated the webinar again in March 2009. I'm not sure the power-point slides are still posted on the internet, but most of the questions/answers (via computer and phone conection) were based around Manistee County (MI) Road Commission's use of beet juice in the Feb webinar and Wixon, MI DPW in the March webinar. Those agencies could be contacted if further information is desired. These agencies have proven results using beet juice as a tool - have pics and alot of numbers to back up their data. A recent SEMCOG (S.E. Mich Council of Govt's) Conference on Deicing revealed how many local SE Mich agencies are starting with or have used winter liquids in the past few years. Certainly those who have nevered used liquids will find there learning curve going almost straight up and will notice huge differences from the days of only throwing rock salt, but the "Beet-Juice" users beat 'em all and had data to back it up. Some shy away initially because they don't understand the difference between price vs cost-to-use, or were never trained on how to use this newer technology. Still, those recently adding winter liquids to there toolbox are usually impressed with there success, even if only using the cheapest winter liquid - brine. Also consider any agency using beet juice for several years ...if it didn't work, why would they still be using it? A side note to that is that some agencies: never got trained to properly use beet juice / never got the buy-in from the crew-operators = probably because it creates using less salt AND fewer applications required ...change is hard) / or directors-supervisors-foreman don't know how to properly calculate the difference between price of the product vs cost-to-use the product. Those using it for years have figured this out by considering all things: cost of materials / application rates / number of applications required per event / salting vs plowing routes / safety - riding on hard-pack vs slushy pavement / corrosion concerns / re-freeze issues = re-application issues / environmental impacts / savings in fuel-overtime-wear & tear on equipment and infrastructure / speed of deicers and any residual effects observed, etc. Additionally, there are some (not the guy that's buying it) who claimed to be using beet juice and have never actually worked with 55% ant-icing solids beet juice, instead, finding mag or calcium chloride technology spiked with token amounts of "organics" like beer waste, cheese waste, vodka and other grain waste, unrefined molasses (not raffinates). Many concoctions like this are out there - and they all work - but have some draw-backs ...read the Bloomer patent!


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## Extremes... (Jan 9, 2010)

*Thank you, anyone designing/innovating field tests?*

You can sure crank out the good info...
Thank you very much...

raffinate -- good description at smbsc (beet sugar cooperative). Raffinate is the liquid resulting from the desugaring of beet molasses. Still not sure how that helps us, but...

With all due respect, I've never found patent descriptions too useful. The claims are great, but on this end, we're looking for more actual "field results" under the dynamic and crazy conditions of our Winter(s).

Yes, Michigan LTAP still had a little info on their web site, but just the "usual" high level ... "carbohydrate-based solutions (corn or beet byproducts)". No evidence. However, may give them a call, they sometimes can share at least some interesting observations.

When someone finally cracks the "field testing" nut in regard to anti-icing, they will be a hero I think. I've done a lot of browsing, read a lot of studies, and have observed I'd have to say "zero" useful field test reports on anti-icing. There are some good "seasonal" wrap-up cost-effectiveness sorts of reports (i.e. Idaho and MgCl2; they observed I think 60%-80% reductions if I remember correctly; mostly due to anti-icing frost events; but also light snow events).

As an example of anti-icing "field testing", the Iowa DOT, who I think has field-tested winter ops as much as anyone, after 15 years, main conclusion, I think, is basically 'field testing is tough'. However, they do keep plugging and they will be one of the first to break through with concrete results down the line, I'm guessing.

BTW Winterologist, I think some of your DOS narratives are great -- I'm a bit slow, so need to read them again, but I get the idea your on to a concept worth grabbing...


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