# Bros before Snow?



## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

interested to see how others deal with these situations, I’m sure we’ve all been asked to bid properties and we know the other contractor currently doing the property, well, that came up for a property and we submitted a bid after being asked a couple times, and won.
Property manager divulged who won to the other contractor who had done the property the last 3 years. And I got a nice little gram saying I was a lowballed POS and bla bla bla.
I knew he serviced the property, but I was under the impression it was done for the company directly and not who had called us.

some background this contractor took a property from us back in the spring, same way, they called him (he claims he was unaware we did it, bla bla bla).

there’s a couple ways I think I could go about this in the future.

1. business is business, they’re asking me for a bid, I’m not knocking on their door poaching it, so it’s fair
2. Ask contractor what his current price is, bid just over that (bid rigging) not a fan of this one.
3. Lie, say we’re booked up
4. Say we know who does it and don’t want to take it on.
5. Ignore RFP and let it blow over (May make company look poor) plus I hate when someone ignores me, why do that to orhers

I think Eventually if said client looks hard enough, they’ll eventually find a bid that they like whether it’s us or them or someone else’s. And he’s pissed, rightfully so, it’s a nice contract.


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## Mountain Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

Option # 1, but I do not have a plow contractors back ground.
Will also point out it may have had nothing to do with the money, the client may have been upset with the way and time things were being done. Just how businesses work.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

BossPlow2010 said:


> interested to see how others deal with these situations, I'm sure we've all been asked to bid properties and we know the other contractor currently doing the property, well, that came up for a property and we submitted a bid after being asked a couple times, and won.
> Property manager divulged who won to the other contractor who had done the property the last 3 years. And I got a nice little gram saying I was a lowballed POS and bla bla bla.
> I knew he serviced the property, but I was under the impression it was done for the company directly and not who had called us.
> 
> ...


Not sure what qualifies someone as a "bro"….but if we're talking about my 2 brothers, it's DNA….as for my friends (the few I have)that are contractors, that hold a contract in a line of work we do, I would not bid a job trying to take it from them, without calling to make sure they didn't want the job anymore. 
Sounds like you knew exactly what you were doing, knew this guy was gonna get mad, but went for it anyway….so this isn't your "bro", or are your desperate?….if your desperate, then I guess you gotta do what you gotta do, but it would still be shady if this dude is really your "bro"


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## E-Town (Mar 11, 2018)

BossPlow2010 said:


> interested to see how others deal with these situations, I'm sure we've all been asked to bid properties and we know the other contractor currently doing the property, well, that came up for a property and we submitted a bid after being asked a couple times, and won.
> Property manager divulged who won to the other contractor who had done the property the last 3 years. And I got a nice little gram saying I was a lowballed POS and bla bla bla.
> I knew he serviced the property, but I was under the impression it was done for the company directly and not who had called us.
> 
> ...


Who pay your bills ?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

E-Town said:


> Who pay your bills ?


Me/ my business


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## E-Town (Mar 11, 2018)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Me/ my business


There ya go, your answer . Sometimes a men needs to do what he needs to do to put food on the table. It's business, no friend in business unless it's your partner or you guys have a previous kind of agreement. Other than that do you mate.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

plow4beer said:


> Not sure what qualifies someone as a "bro"….but if we're talking about my 2 brothers, it's DNA….as for my friends (the few I have)that are contractors, that hold a contract in a line of work we do, I would not bid a job trying to take it from them, without calling to make sure they didn't want the job anymore.
> Sounds like you knew exactly what you were doing, knew this guy was gonna get mad, but went for it anyway….so this isn't your "bro", or are your desperate?….if your desperate, then I guess you gotta do what you gotta do, but it would still be shady if this dude is really your "bro"


One other caveat, this is a side gig for him (he's got a full time job working remotly) they're not about to shut the lights off.
This isn't a side gig for me, still not desperate though, we bid other accounts too that there's a chance, someone is going to lose.
the account he took from us in the Spring, he subbed out to a lawn company, but not us, must've "forgotten" to give us a call.

i don't hold grudges against anybody, I don't need to get "even" with anyone, infact, if someone is upset with me, I will do my best to
Mend that bridge. As I've done with several on this site


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

BossPlow2010 said:


> One other caveat, this is a side gig for him (he's got a full time job working remotly) they're not about to shut the lights off.
> This isn't a side gig for me, still not desperate though, we bid other accounts too that there's a chance, someone is going to lose.
> the account he took from us in the Spring, he subbed out to a lawn company, but not us, must've "forgotten" to give us a call.


Then it sounds like fair game…if anything, karma. Good for you.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I could write a book on young good intentioned mentoring, helping someone to grow their business only to have them @#$+ you over and cheapen your market. 
There are no bros in this business, one will always overstep and take advantage of every opportunity they can regardless of morals. Pay no attention to their wounded egos, they could care less about what you have endured to build your business, give them the same thought.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

BossPlow2010 said:


> plus I hate when someone ignores me,


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

No one owns a customer. Is this guy a good friend or an acquaintance. If he has been servicing the account already, why is the company looking, is his service poor?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Friendly competitor or not? 

In general, my philosophy is #1, but if it's a friendly competitor I'd give them a call and ask what's going on. Maybe they don't want it. Maybe the customer is cheap or not paying or unreasonable. 

I would never consider price rigging...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Friendly competitor or not?
> 
> In general, my philosophy is #1, but if it's a friendly competitor I'd give them a call and ask what's going on. Maybe they don't want it. Maybe the customer is cheap or not paying or unreasonable.
> 
> I would never consider price rigging...


I'm thinking this way as well. 
I've had similar, but when I asked the other guy he said his contract expired.

Another scenario is your "bro" did a crappy job and they don't want him back. 
If he has another job, his timing may not have been what they expected.


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## FourDiamond (Nov 23, 2011)

We don't try to get accounts from friendly operators, but sometimes the client wants a change. As far the the low ball stuff. Everyone has different pricing points to try and earn a living.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What if the other contractor was doing crappy work?

We've contracted a few customers from "competitors" because they do a bad job.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

There's usually 2 reasons a client wants change...either price or work quality


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

FourDiamond said:


> We don't try to get accounts from friendly operators, but sometimes the client wants a change. As far the the low ball stuff. Everyone has different pricing points to try and earn a living.


Our price did come in lower than the previous contractor, we were just over 600$ cheaper for the entire season.
I don't think that's lowballing IMO.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if the other contractor was doing crappy work?
> 
> We've contracted a few customers from "competitors" because they do a bad job.


You also shoot deer that have spots on them..


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Our price did come in lower than the previous contractor, we were just over 600$ cheaper for the entire season.
> I don't think that's lowballing IMO.


So you're Aftermarket, not OEM?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> You also shoot deer that have spots on them..


They fall off when it hits the ground.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Maybe I'm way out there, but I have a different take on this.

Competitor or not, we are all striving to make a go of it in this industry. Some will differentiate themselves on price. Some will differentiate themselves on service. Others will just differentiate on both, or some other gimmick. Point is, competition is what you make of it.

I've always chosen the open door policy. I believe if you want respect in this industry, you better be willing to give it as well. That's why I have no problem picking up the phone or emailing someone who I respect as a competitor. There's more than enough work to go around for all of us. And business is built on relationships - take care of them, and you won't have to worry too much about competitors or "how to get the next one". Besides, I'm not terribly interested in clients that jump around.

Yes, I've been burned. Maybe scalded is a better term, because the burn has never been too deep. Usually the client has to go through an education process to begin to understand why we are who we are, and they (competitors) are who they are.


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## sven1277 (Jan 15, 2008)

It depends on the contractor for me. I called a competitor when a property was looking for a plowing bid. He wanted the property back so I politely told the customer that we were booked for that season. Same thing happened with a different contractor on a large retail plaza. We don’t plow that type of property. I called the contractor and ended giving them a high bid. That same contractor just did the same for me this year.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

GMC Driver said:


> Maybe I'm way out there, but I have a different take on this.
> 
> Competitor or not, we are all striving to make a go of it in this industry. Some will differentiate themselves on price. Some will differentiate themselves on service. Others will just differentiate on both, or some other gimmick. Point is, competition is what you make of it.
> 
> ...


Amen! Here I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought like this... Very eye opening thread,


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

FourDiamond said:


> We don't try to get accounts from friendly operators, but sometimes the client wants a change. As far the the low ball stuff. Everyone has different pricing points to try and earn a living.


I respectfully disagree. There ARE low ball operators. They don't mind losing on the snow to gain the cutting and landscaping or vice versa. Would gladly you not have the job anymore even if they break even or lose some. That way they hurt the competition. Happens all the time. I never lost on quality, never even worried because it was never close. I lost out on price many times because I was always near the top on pricing. As far as friends I worried about competing against, there was one good friend and we only had a few problems that we managed to work out. Wasn't real easy though. Business is tough. OP, based on everything you've communicated here, I don't see where you crossed a line or really did anything wrong. Lots of interesting points are being made.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

WIPensFan said:


> I respectfully disagree. There ARE low ball operators. They don't mind losing on the snow to gain the cutting and landscaping or vice versa. Would gladly you not have the job anymore even if they break even or lose some. That way they hurt the competition. Happens all the time. I never lost on quality, never even worried because it was never close. I lost out on price many times because I was always near the top on pricing. As far as friends I worried about competing against, there was one good friend and we only had a few problems that we managed to work out. Wasn't real easy though. Business is tough. OP, based on everything you've communicated here, I don't see where you crossed a line or really did anything wrong. Lots of interesting points are being made.


I lost a couple years ago, because they wanted to use their lawn guy for snow. One I got back in January of that season. The other I got back the next season.
In both cases, they didn't get the level of service I provided. Cost had nothing to do with it.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I'm kinda torn as I think this is part of the issue with the race to the bottom in the industry.

There is a contractor that does the same line (schools, hospitals, factories) as us. Years ago while on a bus trip to a ball game with one of the supply houses we got to talking.

We came to an agreement enough work out there for all of us without kicking each other in the shins.

I stay away from his work... he stays away from mine.

If I get asked to service a property that I know is his, I will ask why. If it is performance, then that is different than if they are price shopping.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Our price did come in lower than the previous contractor, we were just over 600$ cheaper for the entire season.
> I don't think that's lowballing IMO.


$600 on a $700 contract?
or 
$600 on a $60,000 contract?

One is 85% cheaper... one is 1% cheaper...

One is a lowballer.... one is a businessman


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> $600 on a $700 contract?
> or
> $600 on a $60,000 contract?
> 
> ...


Here we go with math again...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

What about the intrinsic value?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

m_ice said:


> Here we go with math again...


Sorry...


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> Sorry...


Just remember...sometimes you have to simplify it depending on the audience you're trying to reach.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

m_ice said:


> Just remember...sometimes you have to simplify it depending on the audience you're trying to reach.


Who?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Who?


no, not him


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

m_ice said:


> Just remember...sometimes you have to simplify it depending on the audience you're trying to reach.


Couple of friends of mine are in a race with each other to see who can get bigger and have more sales, more employees, more equipment, yada yada.

While we were on a hunting trip (well into the whiskey at this point in the night) and they were having a pissing competition over sales and payroll, how much they spent on this/that etc

I said "The way I see it fellas, you can do $20 million in sales at 2% or 2 million in sales at 20%... in the end both walk away with $400K"

The room fell quite for a few seconds while they processed...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

we were a little under 2% lower than their price, i’m going to leave it at that. Contractor has reached back out understanding business is business, and I’ve pushed a couple properties that are near his place of business but away from ours towards his way


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> Couple of friends of mine are in a race with each other to see who can get bigger and have more sales, more employees, more equipment, yada yada.
> 
> While we were on a hunting trip (well into the whiskey at this point in the night) and they were having a pissing competition over sales and payroll, how much they spent on this/that etc
> 
> ...


I subbed for a company for awhile. Their prices were low. Their philosophy was "its all about volume". Mine was ROI. Why spend 60 hours making what you could in 40? We parted ways.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> Couple of friends of mine are in a race with each other to see who can get bigger and have more sales, more employees, more equipment, yada yada.
> 
> While we were on a hunting trip (well into the whiskey at this point in the night) and they were having a pissing competition over sales and payroll, how much they spent on this/that etc
> 
> ...


And the guy at 2mil/20%, typically has less burden/liabilities


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> we were a little under 2% lower than their price, i'm going to leave it at that. Contractor has reached back out understanding business is business, and I've pushed a couple properties that are near his place of business but away from ours towards his way


I'm glad you worked it out.
I work with a couple contractors and we throw each other work depending on who's closer, or better suited for the job.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> And the guy at 2mil/20%, typically has less burden/liabilities


The line that was said shortly after I said what I said buy the guy who is has by far done the best in his business ventures was:

"The only thing that gets smaller when you get bigger is your margins boys"


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

BossPlow2010 said:


> we were a little under 2% lower than their price, i'm going to leave it at that. Contractor has reached back out understanding business is business, and I've pushed a couple properties that are near his place of business but away from ours towards his way


Under 2%...... You should have been able to convince them using people skills to sign since they approached you several times to bid. 
But they we're probably doing a sanity check for what they're currently paying.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

BossPlow2010 said:


> we were a little under 2% lower than their price, i'm going to leave it at that. Contractor has reached back out understanding business is business, and I've pushed a couple properties that are near his place of business but away from ours towards his way


I would call that fair pricing

I almost hate hearing the other contractors bid numbers at public openings cause when you are low, first thing you think is "what did I miss" second thing is "crap, I left to much on the table"

On a $30K contract, 2% is a damn good win. Be proud that you were that close and got it.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

BUFF said:


> Under 2%...... You should have been able to convince them using people skills to sign since they approached you several times to bid.
> But they we're probably doing a sanity check for what they're currently paying.


I haven't been to your class yet…


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I haven't been to your class yet…


Limited seating due to the covid restrictions...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> Limited seating due to the covid restrictions...


He needs to get with the times...its a virtual world now.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

EWSplow said:


> He needs to get with the times...its a virtual world now.


Our planning board was Zoom meetings. Didn't like it. No one told me I had to wear pants.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

plow4beer said:


> And the guy at 2mil/20%, typically has less burden/liabilities


And this is where I am at with Bella vs OLM. Not those specific numbers, but the principle.

Still charging about the same for a person with a truck, blower, sprayer and some hand tools as a guy with a truck, trailer, mowers, trimmers, edgers, backpacks, ride-on blower...

More and more I ask myself why?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> More and more I ask myself why?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> Our planning board was Zoom meetings. Didn't like it. No one told me I had to wear pants.












I biggest issue is not "muting" and saying what think aboot someone or the topic oot loud....


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> And this is where I am at with Bella vs OLM. Not those specific numbers, but the principle.
> 
> Still charging about the same for a person with a truck, blower, sprayer and some hand tools as a guy with a truck, trailer, mowers, trimmers, edgers, backpacks, ride-on blower...
> 
> More and more I ask myself why?


Because you feel obligated too?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

plow4beer said:


> Because you feel obligated too?


Possibly?

The CFO has asked that same question.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Possibly?
> 
> The CFO has asked that same question.


not a good reason, by itself, when you really think about it….mine started asking me the same thing about a year or 2 ago, about certain things I/company was doing


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Depends on who it is but i don't poach. Most people its #1. I also give the other guy a call. More often than not I don't want the work [bad client] or they don't like my pricing.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Kvston said:


> Depends on who it is but i don't poach. Most people its #1. I also give the other guy a call. More often than not I don't want the work [bad client] or they don't like my pricing.


The dreaded price shopper


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

m_ice said:


> The dreaded price shopper


I find myself telling people what I will do these days regardless of what they think i should do…


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