# I'm a Scum Sucking Lowballer



## EcoGreen Serv (Oct 26, 2009)

Had a call today calling me a Scum Sucking lowballer.

A buddy of mine has a store in a small strip mall, Wasn't happy with how the snow was handled over the last couple of year... He'd complained to the Mall management with now success so he asked me to bid and gave me all the contact info.

So I did.

The Parking area is 200 X 109 ft , All open, no curbs. Lots of room to stack along the long edge. With the road behind the stores is was 26500 sq/ft or 0.6 Acres

Didn't really want it because it's 20 minutes out of my way

So I bid $400 per push / $6500 Per Season Figuring I was way high

I get a call from the guy who's done it for the last 5 years all bent out of shape that now he has to match my price and I just cost him a ton of money in order for him to keep it.

He was getting $13000 per year to do it !!!!!!

Talked to my buddy again, Apparently the "Property Manager" is his Sister in Law..

Yes, I'm officially a Lowballer now ... :redbounce


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

you aren't a lowballer, he is a gouger, serves him right


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Actually the sister in law is the gouger. She was charging the store to much


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## Grampa Plow (Sep 1, 2008)

Holy Buckets! The way some strip malls work, the mall management bills the tenants for all of the expenses, plus adds on a 10 - 20 % administration fee. They don't really care what the charges come in at when that is the case!! Good luck low baller!!!


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## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

Around here that lot would be even cheaper.
But if your in GTA I can only assume by the high sub rates offered that pricing would be high.
The city used to get moderate winters but 4" would almost shut the city down.
JMO


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

Tell him if he had done his job to begin with, you'd have never been considered for the job anyhow. Not to mention, if he doesn't want to do it for that price, he doesn't have to. If I got lowballed and I literally would be losing money, or the job wasn't worth doing for the price, I'd let it go. He's just pissed b/c he got found out, not that you lowballed it. How you explained it, your price seemed average to me.


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## Elite Property Services (Oct 28, 2008)

You got it, Got H20. I also think that your price is fair not even looking at the property. I am still confused why it would cost him a ton of money to match your price we are not talking 5 acres of pavement with onsite machinery.


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## carl b (Dec 28, 2006)

EcoGreen Serv;844934 said:


> Had a call today calling me a Scum Sucking lowballer.
> 
> A buddy of mine has a store in a small strip mall, Wasn't happy with how the snow was handled over the last couple of year... He'd complained to the Mall management with now success so he asked me to bid and gave me all the contact info.
> 
> ...


Congrats, Not on the lot ,but knowing your a lowballer . welcome to my world . LOL:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## ABES (Jun 10, 2007)

I see this all the time. It cracks me up when I see guys get bent out of shape because they cant make $200 an hour with there pickup.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

i had that happen to me last year. it was a 75000 sq ft lot. bid it out at 10k for the season. fair price i believe. while i was plowing it one night the guy came in the lot and said i lowballed it. he was doing it for 15k the last 3 years. he was gouging them bug time. he could not match the price he said. he said you cant any money on it. guess what happened this year he dropped his price 5k when he bid. what an idiot. he got caught.


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## Ketch (Feb 11, 2009)

Burkartsplow;845250 said:


> i had that happen to me last year. it was a 75000 sq ft lot. bid it out at 10k for the season. fair price i believe. while i was plowing it one night the guy came in the lot and said i lowballed it. he was doing it for 15k the last 3 years. he was gouging them bug time. he could not match the price he said. he said you cant any money on it. guess what happened this year he dropped his price 5k when he bid. what an idiot. he got caught.


How much and what kind of equipment were you using on that account? How'd it turn out? I'm thinking of bidding some larger accounts next year, depending on what happens this year... payup


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

200x100 is half an acre
should take less than 1/2 an hour to push.
(although add some in for driving 20 minutes away)

Your bid is way high.
His is ridiculous.

That's funny.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

the price you gave is good, i wouldn't worry about it unless you don't want the lot lol


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## EcoGreen Serv (Oct 26, 2009)

LoneCowboy;845391 said:


> 200x100 is half an acre
> should take less than 1/2 an hour to push.
> (although add some in for driving 20 minutes away)
> 
> ...


It was a complicated figure to arrive at.

Well Using my standard Sq/Ft formula it would have been. 
$263 / Push
Added for 40 minutes Drive time and fuel.

And the special, "I Don't really want it, so If I'm going to do it I'll make it worth my time" Charge .:whistling:


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

EcoGreen Serv;845537 said:


> It was a complicated figure to arrive at.
> 
> Well Using my standard Sq/Ft formula it would have been.
> $263 / Push
> ...


So you charge $0.009924528 per sqft? You would charge roughly $431.716968 for an acre?

Would you really charge that much for this lot?

I wish I could get that much, I would be a millionaire! That lot would go for $50-60 here.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

EcoGreen Serv;845537 said:


> And the special, "I Don't really want it, so If I'm going to do it I'll make it worth my time" Charge .:whistling:


That's funny
I use that too (esp in the summer)
amazing how many of those you actually get.


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## Ketch (Feb 11, 2009)

If you think about it, there are good guys and bad guys. To us, the bad guys are the scum-sucking lowballers, who are quite different than lowballers. To the customer, the bad guys are price gouging rapists, who are quite different from enterprising individuals. I'm not Merriam-Webster, but the following definitions seem to better illustrate my point:

*Scum-Sucking Lowballer*: a person who makes it his or her standard business practice to undercut everybody at any cost, and often at the eventual detriment to the customer in the form of poor service, false charges/billing, and the Taliban work ethic.

*Lowballer*: a person who happens to have a lower price than _the other guy_, who usually pitches a fit like a whiny b1tch :crying: because he doesn't wanna take the time to go bid somebody else.

*Price Gouging Rapist*: a person who will do anything, and I mean anything, to make as much money as possible on an account. Actions usually include intimidating customers, harassing other contractors, being a ****** :realmad:. Also know as _'the other guy_' in the definition of a '_Lowballer_' above.

*Enterprising Individual*: someone who gives an honest price for work when asked, but will sometimes add an additional charge affectionately know as the "_I Don't Really Want It, So If I'm Going to Do It, I'll Make It Worth My Time_" charge payup when the desire for a particular job is lackluster.

Feel free to add your terms and definitions as well.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

For a 45 minute plow that would be considered high here. You are working on 16 plows/year. That would be low for us. Where are you? We also have to include salt in most of our bids. Also is that 20 minutes in July or in a snow storm. You can do a lot of plowing instead of driving.


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## EcoGreen Serv (Oct 26, 2009)

terrapro;845554 said:


> So you charge $0.009924528 per sqft? You would charge roughly $431.716968 for an acre?
> 
> Would you really charge that much for this lot?
> 
> I wish I could get that much, I would be a millionaire! That lot would go for $50-60 here.


It's a retail area, It also includes the walkways and sidewalk.



Ketch;845879 said:


> *Enterprising Individual*: someone who gives an honest price for work when asked, but will sometimes add an additional charge affectionately know as the "_I Don't Really Want It, So If I'm Going to Do It, I'll Make It Worth My Time_" charge payup when the desire for a particular job is lackluster.


 :salute::salute:



cet;845905 said:


> For a 45 minute plow that would be considered high here. You are working on 16 plows/year. That would be low for us. Where are you? We also have to include salt in most of our bids. Also is that 20 minutes in July or in a snow storm. You can do a lot of plowing instead of driving.


I'm north of Hwy 89 , So we tend to get a fair bit more snow than you southern boys in Newmarket . This particular place was in Shelburne which is almost 20 minutes in the summer. Being the wind capital of Ontario, We get some major Drifting.. What would a lot like that go for in Newmarket ?.


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## Bruce'sEx (Sep 16, 2006)

cet;845905 said:


> For a 45 minute plow that would be considered high here. You are working on 16 plows/year. That would be low for us. Where are you? We also have to include salt in most of our bids. Also is that 20 minutes in July or in a snow storm. You can do a lot of plowing instead of driving.


I still think people are crazy for including salt, and luckly we still have avoided it other then a couple places. Guess it works as long as you know how to price, but I've heard some stories before.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Bruce'sEx;845999 said:


> I still think people are crazy for including salt, and luckly we still have avoided it other then a couple places. Guess it works as long as you know how to price, but I've heard some stories before.


Biggest problem with including salt now is the unstable price as the season goes. You either need 1 really large shed or prepay which is what I did last year for the first time. It worked out great except I have 1 very large credit.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

EcoGreen Serv;845936 said:


> It's a retail area, It also includes the walkways and sidewalk.
> 
> :salute::salute:
> 
> I'm north of Hwy 89 , So we tend to get a fair bit more snow than you southern boys in Newmarket . This particular place was in Shelburne which is almost 20 minutes in the summer. Being the wind capital of Ontario, We get some major Drifting.. What would a lot like that go for in Newmarket ?.


I bet some guy would do it for $2500. Might not show up too early and I bet it wouldn't see any daytime plowing. There are lots of guys here that think you only plow between midnight and 8am. Might not come back to do entrance ways after the street plow either.

I know I guy that can get a place now if he matches last years price. It is a 20 min plow and it went for $1780.


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## CJSLAWNSERVICE (Nov 6, 2005)

terrapro;845554 said:


> So you charge $0.009924528 per sqft? You would charge roughly $431.716968 for an acre?
> 
> Would you really charge that much for this lot?
> 
> I wish I could get that much, I would be a millionaire! That lot would go for $50-60 here.


I was about to say the same thing...... $75 if your lucky in MI !!!
Oh walks included too...... thats different, but you catch my drift!


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

You should revise your bid.Tell them you made a mistake. Tell them you didn't"t add the salt or something and get more cash if that's what there used to paying.I don"t blame the guy for being mad. It happens to me all the time with my roofing business. Dam Lowballers


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## Bolt-1 (Sep 21, 2008)

*Yes they are everywhere.*

http://providence.craigslist.org/wan/1448507240.html

I think I'll get together with 8 or 10 of my friends, who live all over the area of this guy, with all about a standard driveway, wait till about there's 10 inches on the ground. Then they all give him a call.


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## ERICS LAWN CARE (Oct 19, 2009)

so when you guys give a bid for the season, do you request they pay the whole thing upfront or do you break it up into equal monthly payments?


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## ERICS LAWN CARE (Oct 19, 2009)

i did that once for a little old lady, I'd like to call her a scum sucking customer as she screwed me out of the last payment for march because she didnt feel there would be any snow, or maybe i assume that, cant remember why anyhow that was going to be the profit month. i had a written contract and should of taken her to court; so much for trying to give easy payment plan to a little old lady that had a fixed income.


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## EcoGreen Serv (Oct 26, 2009)

ERICS LAWN CARE;850522 said:


> so when you guys give a bid for the season, do you request they pay the whole thing upfront or do you break it up into equal monthly payments?


4 post dated cheques dated Dec 1st,,, Jan 1st,,, Feb 1st,, , Mar 1st,, Equal Payments. 
Salt or Traction products are billed monthly.

I also give a option to pay with credit card via Paypal or by Electronic Banking.


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## ERICS LAWN CARE (Oct 19, 2009)

EcoGreen Serv;850546 said:


> 4 post dated cheques dated Dec 1st,,, Jan 1st,,, Feb 1st,, , Mar 1st,, Equal Payments.
> Salt or Traction products are billed monthly.
> 
> I also give a option to pay with credit card via Paypal or by Electronic Banking.


That is a good idea, live and learn I guess; and boy have we learned! We are mostly successful in the prepay plan for residentials for unlimited plowing; it helps to get lots of prepays upfront to purchase new snow equipment, maybe a plow or something. And we don't feel the affect all winter as we plow because more people pay each time than prepay. Then if you plow twice cause get 10 inches they dont b****.


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## EcoGreen Serv (Oct 26, 2009)

Just thought I'd update this.
I was down seeing my buddy yesterday. The parking lot has a good 2"-3" of packed icy snow on it. Doesn't look like it's seen a ounce of salt all year and last week the guy drove into a customers car causing $3500 in damage. :laughing:


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Bruce'sEx;845999 said:


> I still think people are crazy for including salt, and luckly we still have avoided it other then a couple places. Guess it works as long as you know how to price, but I've heard some stories before.


It works very well on light years and not on heavy years. Everything generally works out in the end on a 3 year deal.


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## nhpatriot (Dec 9, 2007)

JD Dave;951099 said:


> It works very well on light years and not on heavy years. Everything generally works out in the end on a 3 year deal.


I am with you on this. Longer terms means we share the risk and reward.

I do include salt in my seasonal contracts, but with a caveat for surcharges if the prices go over a specified number. Same with diesel. If diesel goes over $3.50/gallon, I surcharge for the difference. And if salt goes over $95/ton I surcharge as well.

I like to keep a good handful of per storms, so that if we get hammered, it helps to equalize things.


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## musclecarboy (Aug 19, 2007)

nhpatriot;951444 said:


> I am with you on this. Longer terms means we share the risk and reward.
> 
> I do include salt in my seasonal contracts, but with a caveat for surcharges if the prices go over a specified number. Same with diesel. If diesel goes over $3.50/gallon, I surcharge for the difference. And if salt goes over $95/ton I surcharge as well.
> 
> I like to keep a good handful of per storms, so that if we get hammered, it helps to equalize things.


The only issue with surcharges is sometimes guys are adding so much that the surcharge amount covers 25%+ of their total fuel cost, instead of the $0.XX above $3.50. If the customer pays then who cares but if someone hit me with a $5 surcharge when fuel is $3.79 I would really wonder how he's possibly using 17 gallons of fuel on my lot.

Those are all figurative numbers, but I believe if you need to take a hit for higher costs, I would just add it in the price and take a little gamble.


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## VPRacing (Dec 26, 2009)

Chalk me up for a Scum Sucking Lowballer!!!

My g/f works for a bank here in MN and in my town the bank has 3 locations. The main is 1 city block with a separate drive up on the same block, the bank takes up 1/4 of the block, the drive up takes up a small portion kitty corner on the same block, and the rest is parking. The other 2 locations are small, parking lot about a 1/4 city block at most. Also all the sidewalks around the block and around the parking lot at the other locations.

My g/f was talking to the vice president about the snow removal and he said they were upset with the way the company has been doing the snow/salt handling. She asked what they charge and he said the bank pays 18k for the year to have it plowed and salted whenever they want it done. My g/f told them that was outrageous, and to call me with what he felt the bank should be charged.

Got a call last week and asked if I would be willing to do the lot for 13k/yr, I told the guy that was still high. He said he didn't care as long as its less than what the guys are doing it now for. So I asked how he felt about half of what the guy was doing it for (9k) and he didnt like that. He said he would give me 10k/yr and any auto or equipment loan I need for 0% interest for saving the company so much money.

I've never had anyone add money to the bid before. I'm sure the guy doing it now is going to have some nice words for me when I take over the account Winter '10. Signed the contract yesterday for 3yrs, the vice president said if fuel or sand/salt goes up, they will be more than willing to pay a surcharge on top of the contracted price or if snow had to be hauled off the premises. All of this being said in the contract.

Pretty stoked as this is the largest contract I've signed and it has a lot of benefits along with it!


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## coral (May 4, 2008)

love the thread title...made me read thru it.....


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## FisherVMan (Jan 5, 2010)

I have to agree with Terrapro and say that around here where people work for nothing if I bid that size for a 100 a push every Tom Dick and Harry would underbid it to get it ............... we could never get that around here .............. on driveways if the winter bill gets up over $500 for the season they will start looking into buying an old truck or you will see a new snoblower setting in their garage............
just my 2Cents worth....


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

EcoGreen Serv;844934 said:


> Had a call today calling me a Scum Sucking lowballer.
> 
> A buddy of mine has a store in a small strip mall, Wasn't happy with how the snow was handled over the last couple of year... He'd complained to the Mall management with now success so he asked me to bid and gave me all the contact info.
> 
> ...


What I'm getting from reading this, is if the guy would've done a good job, he'd still be getting his $13k per season.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

You should have gone with the 13K, if not more. I have had my share of signups from high accounts but never have they been more than twice the amount.

I suppose the new guys with questions trump the experienced with knowledge on this site. Have to pay the bills I suppose.

Good luck with you and yours VPRacing.


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## VPRacing (Dec 26, 2009)

I should have specified that the combination of the lots are less than 2 acres... That's why I feel the price is a lot. Quite small and manageable with all my other properties. Looking to get away from residential and into more commercial anyways.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

VP.... seems like you are very new to this business...... If an account wants you to plow at a certain price that their comfortable with YOU DO NOT TALK THEM DOWN (I don't care if YOU think its high or not, THEIR the ones that dictated the price)......... 

economics man, economics!

You will learn when you don't have enough $ to replace your plow or tranny one season.....


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## JB1 (Dec 29, 2006)

I just don't understand the art of haggling prices, if someone is offering to let you have it for 13k and you say no I'll do it for 9k. What in the world are they teaching in school now days. and whats even funnier is for someone to think someone is ripping a customer off on price when they don't even have a clue on prices.

just plow on


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## bandacon (Oct 11, 2007)

See what you guys are not seeing is that the sister in law, gave that job to the first guy. The first guy was probably giving the sister in law a kick back. Eco-green, your buddy who owns the store and asked you to price it out better watch his back, he just cut into the sister in laws bottom line.


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## burlingtonplow (Jan 6, 2010)

bandacon;955403 said:


> See what you guys are not seeing is that the sister in law, gave that job to the first guy. The first guy was probably giving the sister in law a kick back. Eco-green, your buddy who owns the store and asked you to price it out better watch his back, he just cut into the sister in laws bottom line.


I had a customer tell me they wanted me to bid. I actually asked them WHAT THEY WANTED TO PAY ME. His quote was very reasonable so I said yes I'll do it for that price and sent over the contract. He disapeared and after two weeks told me "I went with someone cheaper" I scratched my head because I just said yes to the price he gave me. I guess that is why some people don't want to sign up too high with people because they know the contract wont last long.


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