# Building The New Liquid Deicer



## Superior L & L

Well we finally ordered the parts for the deicing machine. Parts arrived today and we will start building tomorrow.

Thanks to PJ for his guidance

We will be using a 1000 gallon leg tank, with a briggs motor (not a briggs fan but o well)and a pre build spray bar
Here is the motor http://www.dultmeier.com/products/search/1195


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## Superior L & L

Spray bar...........8' long and can spray 10' wide


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## Leisure Time LC

looks good, keep us informes on how it works for you.


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## Dhouse

What type of truck is that going to sit on? 
How much money are you saving by building it yourself?
Do you have a storage tank for the liquid?

I am full of questions today.


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## forestfireguy

Cant see pics well but do you have the ability to change nozel types


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## Superior L & L

Well you can buy a small capacity machine for $3-4000.00 but a large capacity machine was in the $7000.00 range. We will have about $2500 total in to it.

We are picking up storage tanks monday for free off a local farmer.

The truck we are starting with is a 3500HD. I know that is a lot of liquid weight fo rthat truck but we will apply 1/3 of the tank at businesses that are on our street.


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## Cash

1000 gallons plus the weight of that unit is twice the weight of the truck, and the truck will be overloaded by well over 2.5 tons.

I dont even think thats entirely possible. I know you know you need a bigger truck. I just dont want anyone else here thinking you can get away with that for more than three minutes.


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## elite1msmith

umm simple math here.... approx 10.5 lbs per gal x 1000 gals = 10,000 lbs just the weight of the liquid plus all the hardware . so i load my trucks up really over weight ... 5,000 at times... but 10,000? arent most 3500 trucks considered 1 tons? now i know we all go over that , but 4 tons over is a bit much

of course no one says you have to load it max full 

i hope you have baffles , that long of a tank , the liquid moving around is gonna be fun , especially if its only 1/2 full


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## Cash

And I wasn't even including net weight of the brine product itself. Thats a crazy mans load....lol

I remember back in the day I had a 1990 dodge 3/4 ton 4wd, and it weighed roughly 4500lbs, and I put 5000 lbs of 1-2" cobblestone in it.

They shook their heads at the scales. I only had to go a mile or so to offload. It was a brand new truck too or i probably wouldnt have done it, and I'd never do it again.


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## Superior L & L

forestfireguy;673334 said:


> Cant see pics well but do you have the ability to change nozel types


Yep we have stream nozels(i think thats what there called) installed but we can change to fan if we do anti icing


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## Superior L & L

Thanks for your concern Elite & Cash. The "unit" weighs in at about 360#'s. 300 for the tank, 54 for the pump/motor and couple of pounds for the valve etc. We bought the larger tank so we have the ability to put it in the 4500's or 5500 at a later date. But while i know it is over weight that truck would have know problem hauling that thing full. We can haul 4-5 tons of stone in it in the summer and it doesnt even sag a bit.

I know people will start posting about the break system etc and motor so lets just say i will be hauling only 500 gallons of liquid max. and lets just keep it at that. I know im a bad person if i drive a truck over loaded because no on else has ever don that, but lets keep this thread about the deicer


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## Runner

You're going to want fan nozzles, as stream nozzles don't work worth the darn. They just leave lines and don't disperse very well - leaving alot of ice. Brent from Master Seal used these, and said he will never use stream nozzles again.


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## elite1msmith

Runner;673950 said:


> You're going to want fan nozzles, as stream nozzles don't work worth the darn. They just leave lines and don't disperse very well - leaving alot of ice. Brent from Master Seal used these, and said he will never use stream nozzles again.


now im a little interested in this , i will be using stream nozzels, spaced every 10 inches as PJ said to do. how fare apart were your nozzels?


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## Superior L & L

Runner;673950 said:


> You're going to want fan nozzles, as stream nozzles don't work worth the darn. They just leave lines and don't disperse very well - leaving alot of ice. Brent from Master Seal used these, and said he will never use stream nozzles again.


That is good to know. I did plan on getting some fan nozzles for anti icing but it sound like i will need them from the get go. As you can tell this is new to me also. Everything i know is from asking questions to everyone i think knows more than me

Do you know what degree fan nozzels too use?


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## Superior L & L

Elite the bar we bought was a 8' bar that can spray 10' and the nozzels are 8" apart

I wish i had some picks but things didnt go as plan today


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## elite1msmith

sounds just like the bar that i made


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## Cash

I've seen those stream or flood nozzles as you guys call them and could never figure out why youd use those vs a fanjet nozzle. I understand the principle of melting the ice from the bottom up too but there has to be a better nozzle than those floods or open tips.

One thing you all need to be concerned about especially when using retrofitted tanks is theres probably no baffeling and theres nothing worse than driving around with a half full unbaffled load of liquid.

You'll find out what I mean on your first trip. 

Looks like you are building it HD though. and thats always good.


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## elite1msmith

the problem from fan nozzels , is the mist it creates.. sometimes after a storm its very windy here.... and the 10 mph that im trying to drive and spray at isnt gonna help either.... so a fan nozzel ,25-50% might not acctually make the ground, it might be air born .... plus i really dont want the stuff blowing towards my truck , liquid calcium is BAD news for metal


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## Superior L & L

The systems ive seen running that used fans had TONs of pressure and did a great job but i thought the stream tips woud bust though the ice cover


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## elite1msmith

the more PSI , the more mist , generally speaking..low psi is better


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## Cash

But there is almost an infinate number of different styles and GPM nozzles available for Ag equipment.

I know you can find the right nozzle with a comfortable mix between GPM, droplet size and desired spray pattern. 

You should also have them set up for quick change so you can use a different nozzle for whatever reason, and clean the nozzles you do use, when necessary.

Nozzles are cheap, and you should always have spares at least.


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## Superior L & L

http://www.teejet.com/english/home/tech-support/nozzle-technical-information/useful-formulas.aspx

I'll use this info to figure it out .............................once i can figure it out!


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## elite1msmith

yes simple math , but remember brine is thicker than water so you will have to multiply but 1.15 to get the proper nozzel size... ( i think 1.15 is correct, might want to check the chart, or ask PJ)


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## Runner

Actually, the floodjet nozzles are what you are going to want. These will give an even dispersal, and yet reduce drifting. I apologize for stating fan nozzles, as what I was meaning are nozzles that spray a width - as opposed to the solid stream. It just so happens that there are fan jet nozzles, but these are NOT the proper nozzles for this application. It will be floodjets that release larger droplets, yet low to medium volumes. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I'm thinking what would be a great idea, would be go down to the county truck lot (on 12th Street) and talk to someone in the garage. They would be happy to show you the brand new setups they have for this year. This would give you a good idea of volume they are pumping (per width) and see what nozzles and angles they are running (per height of the nozzles). Frankly, I would LOVE to go down there and talk to someone about it. Those guys are all pretty cool down there. I guess ultimately, someone will probably step up here that has a setup similar to your volume you will be using.


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## Cash

Yes but you can also get a fanjet with a larger droplet capability, run high GPM at Low PSI.

The combinations are endless since you have so many variables that determine whatb happens at the tip. 

PSI, GPM, Nozzle Size, Ground Speed, product density etc etc. 

Kindof cool really but also very mind boggling.

It really all boils down to a visual, and a bucket test and tracking your changes so you know where you were, and where you are.

I know some of you want to go digital with this, but...I dunno. Maybe im old school but give me a sight gauge, and five 3 gallon buckets and a stopwatch. Thats how Id test flow......


I guess if you have to use flood jet nozzles Id prefer closer nozzle spacing on the units Ive seen. There again. You can put the same amount of product through ten nozzles as you can five....with the right settings.


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## Keith_480231

I don't know anything about this product but, it is not effective on wet pavement correct?


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## Superior L & L

The wetter the snow the less effective the product


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## elite1msmith

Superior L & L;674611 said:


> The wetter the snow the less effective the product


very true... you might as well not use it on a wet, or icy day ... unless its as a post treat after plowing


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## forestfireguy

Maybe a little bit behind the discussion here but last for the last 2 years we had an account that required liquid (pot Acetate) we applied it with straight tip nozzles, 1/8 inch hole, it was retail and traffic spread the liqiud pretty well does anyone else count on traffic to spread their product?


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## fulltiltwill

*Traffic*

Just my .02
I have gotten into liquid this year and what i have found is that no one nozzle will do all the jobs. I have a six foot bar with 4 teejet nozzles running a XR11015 tip. Tip height is 17in and spacing is 24in. This set up works great for pre-treating. Then I have a 8 foot bar that is just a piece of 1/2in pvc with 1/8in holes drilled every 3in. This bar works well when I need to burn anything under an inch of snow AND there is plenty of traffic to help move it. If there is no traffic even at 3in apart you can see just the lines in the snow. If I need to cut through some ice I use my teejets with SJ3 fertilizer tips SJ3-04 and then remove the metering block to maximize there flow. All I am running is a 12v flojet pump rated at 4.9GPM from a 275g tank to my spray bar. Total cost into my set up to date is $365. The product I'm using is a well brine that is a Calcium and Magnesium mix that I get for .40/g. The best results I have had are when I can pre-treat the lot, plow and then treat again. Even with 2 treatments I am ahead if I salted just once. That way I save the salt when I need to burn off 1in or more.


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## flykelley

fulltiltwill;675540 said:


> Just my .02
> I have gotten into liquid this year and what i have found is that no one nozzle will do all the jobs. I have a six foot bar with 4 teejet nozzles running a XR11015 tip. Tip height is 17in and spacing is 24in. This set up works great for pre-treating. Then I have a 8 foot bar that is just a piece of 1/2in pvc with 1/8in holes drilled every 3in. This bar works well when I need to burn anything under an inch of snow AND there is plenty of traffic to help move it. If there is no traffic even at 3in apart you can see just the lines in the snow. If I need to cut through some ice I use my teejets with SJ3 fertilizer tips SJ3-04 and then remove the metering block to maximize there flow. All I am running is a 12v flojet pump rated at 4.9GPM from a 275g tank to my spray bar. Total cost into my set up to date is $365. The product I'm using is a well brine that is a Calcium and Magnesium mix that I get for .40/g. The best results I have had are when I can pre-treat the lot, plow and then treat again. Even with 2 treatments I am ahead if I salted just once. That way I save the salt when I need to burn off 1in or more.


Hi Fulltiltwill
How about some pictures of your set up?
Thanks Mike


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## Dhouse

Less talk, more pictures!!


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## fulltiltwill

*Pics*


































I just swap the tee fitting over to what bar I need


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## BSDeality

Fulltiltwill, I'd like to see how you got your pump setup. I've got a couple of those totes I use for hydroseeding in the green season and was thinkin about putting one in my trucks.

When I last built a spraybar I made the bar same width as the truck and then bought OC tips. Off-Center tips. They spray out only on one side. This way the bar is less likely to get hooked on things. Just a suggestion.

I might have to start playing with liquids again. I got the bug a couple years back before I started really plowing and then I got too busy with residential stuff to persue the liquid end of the biz. I'll see if I can post some of my old pics.

Here is my old thread. There was some good information shared back then.
http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=40328&highlight=liquid


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## fulltiltwill

*pump pics*

I had an old dog food bin and I just stuck everything in that to keep it out of the weather. Then I can take it off and put it on the next full tote.

























The shorter spray bar does shoot out at the ends and gives me about 7ft of coverage. The white bar is just 1/2in pvc with 1/8in holes drilled every 3in. Monday I am picking up new XR11015 spray tips. Hopefully they will put out enough product without dogging out the pump.


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## lawnprolawns

fulltiltwill;676282 said:


> I had an old dog food bin and I just stuck everything in that to keep it out of the weather. Then I can take it off and put it on the next full tote.
> 
> The shorter spray bar does shoot out at the ends and gives me about 7ft of coverage. The white bar is just 1/2in pvc with 1/8in holes drilled every 3in. Monday I am picking up new XR11015 spray tips. Hopefully they will put out enough product without dogging out the pump.


Nice simple set-up you have. That's exactly what I'm looking to make. Do you have a filter on there somewhere?

Could you let me in on where you got those spray tips and your motor? I cant find a flojet over like 3 GPM. Also, does that have an impeller or diaphragm pump?

I may have talked to your friend yesterday.. there's a guy out near Lansing selling totes like that who said his buddy has a setup which sounded just like yours..

Also, another question. I should know this by now, but I'm still not sure. When will liquid systems work best, and when will they not work? I know they're not going to work well on over say, 1/2" of snow. Will they work as a pre-treat while the snow is coming down? How about after plowing? What about freezing rain, like us MI people have had a few times already?

Thanks for all your help everyone!


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## ndirishfan1

Try Fertilizer Dealer Supply in Morrice, MI. They have all the spray tips, tanks, pumps, fittings, and hose you would need. There phone number is 800-565-4716.


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## fulltiltwill

Thanks Lawn Pro. Yes I have an inline filter. The pump is a flojet 4300 industrial series Quad demand pump and it is a diaphragm pump. All of the hose and conections and filters are from Tractor Supply. The pump I got off of ebay. The tips I had to go to Farmco in DeWitt. As far as the liquid chloride that I am using the best resultes have been right after plowing a lot. I am hoping for better results with my new tips. I will let you know.


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## elite1msmith

what is the GPM on that pump?


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## fulltiltwill

*4.9gpm*

The pump is rated at 4.9 GPM at 40 psi


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## flykelley

Hi Guys
Here is a picture of a unit that a guy I do some sub work for built himself. He has some money in it but it seem to cover all of the bases. I will be building a smaller unit next month using most of his compenets.

Regards Mike


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## flykelley

More pictures.
Enjoy!!


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## flykelley

Some more pictures.


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## flykelley

Not done yet


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## flykelley

still have more pictures


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## flykelley

The last two pictures.


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## flykelley

One more guys. Hope you guys enjoyed these pictures, this is a heavy duty unit.

Regards Mike


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## Mark Oomkes

Runner;673950 said:


> You're going to want fan nozzles, as stream nozzles don't work worth the darn. They just leave lines and don't disperse very well - leaving alot of ice. Brent from Master Seal used these, and said he will never use stream nozzles again.


Dang, you mean we've using the wrong nozzles for the last 7 years?

Crap



elite1msmith;674037 said:


> the problem from fan nozzels , is the mist it creates.. sometimes after a storm its very windy here.... and the 10 mph that im trying to drive and spray at isnt gonna help either.... so a fan nozzel ,25-50% might not acctually make the ground, it might be air born .... plus i really dont want the stuff blowing towards my truck , liquid calcium is BAD news for metal


Bingo



elite1msmith;674070 said:


> the more PSI , the more mist , generally speaking..low psi is better


Bingo again.

Rain drop nozzles work great for sidewalks, can't imagine they would work too well for parking lots, but I could be wrong.

FWIW, we've been using pencil tip\whatever for 7 years as I stated, for anti- and de-icing. Vehicles will carry the liquids around and there is some capillary action with the product itself. This varies with the liquid, bu there is some.

Can't find the picture of mine right now, I'll keep looking.


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## Mark Oomkes

http://www.plowsite.com/showpost.php?p=573837&postcount=31


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## Runner

Mark Oomkes;677395 said:


> Dang, you mean we've using the wrong nozzles for the last 7 years? .


So what nozzles are yo using?


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## Mark Oomkes

Runner;677419 said:


> So what nozzles are yo using?


The ones that came with the unit.

http://www.monroetruck.com/snowice_anticing.asp

I have the 1235 gal tank, 3 lanes. That's the one in the pic, just got it last Feb.

I also have a 325 gallon all season sprayer, with a gas powered pump, 3 lanes also. Not quite the same 3 lanes as the first one though. It'll only spray about 16-18', the big one will do 30' with no problems.


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## JD Dave

Mark Oomkes;677458 said:


> The ones that came with the unit.
> 
> http://www.monroetruck.com/snowice_anticing.asp
> 
> I have the 1235 gal tank, 3 lanes. That's the one in the pic, just got it last Feb.
> 
> I also have a 325 gallon all season sprayer, with a gas powered pump, 3 lanes also. Not quite the same 3 lanes as the first one though. It'll only spray about 16-18', the big one will do 30' with no problems.


I've seen the pics before but I still love looking at your unit Mark. I'm really thinking about going with a hook and lift for my next truck and then one truck can spread both liquid and granular.


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## Runner

So are those fan or floodjets? By the picture on the website, the ones sprating outward appear to be floods.....


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## Superior L & L

Flykelly that is a realy nice unit. Thanks i needed to see a couple so we know the order of were everything goes. Im sure there are a million ways to do it but im sure some work better than others.

Our Big Twinky (tank) is mounted and we should be wrapped up today some time


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## flykelley

Superior L & L;678360 said:


> Flykelly that is a realy nice unit. Thanks i needed to see a couple so we know the order of were everything goes. Im sure there are a million ways to do it but im sure some work better than others.
> 
> Our Big Twinky (tank) is mounted and we should be wrapped up today some time


Hi Superior
It is a little overbuilt, but they did a nice job on it. I plan on building a 250 gallon unit along the same lines. The main thing will be my pump platform will not be as heavy nor will it be connected to the tote. I am doing this so one man can remove the platform and then remove the tank. I plan on setting up a pallet rack at the same height as the truck, then sliding the pump platform onto the rack. Then remove the tank. He also has a controller in the cab that has a pressure gauge and a controller for left, right center heads.The pump itself is Ecoated to help stop corrision, the Honda is a electric start.

Regards Mike


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## Cash

flykelley;678431 said:


> Hi Superior
> It is a little overbuilt, but they did a nice job on it. I plan on building a 250 gallon unit along the same lines. The main thing will be my pump platform will not be as heavy nor will it be connected to the tote. I am doing this so one man can remove the platform and then remove the tank. I plan on setting up a pallet rack at the same height as the truck, then sliding the pump platform onto the rack. Then remove the tank. He also has a controller in the cab that has a pressure gauge and a controller for left, right center heads.The pump itself is Ecoated to help stop corrision, the Honda is a electric start.
> 
> Regards Mike


In my opinion you cant overbuild one of these things if you tried. Your guy used all the right parts, right down to the nice Teejet manifold with electric solenoids.

Im liking the stream nozzles better as I think about it. Drift is an issue, and remember the idea here is melting from the bottom up. Nozzle spacing is key and Marks Monroe unit has really tight spacing.....

I do think some fanjet nozzles for the right circumstances could be used....and Id want the option of changing out nozzles, and adjusting pressures to get the product to the surface if I needed too. And when I say fanjet, Im not talking about the kind of mist you see out of a backpack sprayer. You can run a low psi, higher volume through a fan nozzle with a large orafice creating a rainshower effect. Up to a point and its largely dependant on the size of hose you use and a bunch of other variables. Not as much misting as one would believe.

Note on Flys friends unit.....those are quick change nozzles.

Whats with that Yellow Nozzle pointed horizontally and sortof up towards the bumper?


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## flykelley

Cash;678509 said:


> In my opinion you cant overbuild one of these things if you tried. Your guy used all the right parts, right down to the nice Teejet manifold with electric solenoids.
> 
> Im liking the stream nozzles better as I think about it. Drift is an issue, and remember the idea here is melting from the bottom up. Nozzle spacing is key and Marks Monroe unit has really tight spacing.....
> 
> I do think some fanjet nozzles for the right circumstances could be used....and Id want the option of changing out nozzles, and adjusting pressures to get the product to the surface if I needed too. And when I say fanjet, Im not talking about the kind of mist you see out of a backpack sprayer. You can run a low psi, higher volume through a fan nozzle with a large orafice creating a rainshower effect. Up to a point and its largely dependant on the size of hose you use and a bunch of other variables. Not as much misting as one would believe.
> 
> Note on Flys friends unit.....those are quick change nozzles.
> 
> Whats with that Yellow Nozzle pointed horizontally and sortof up towards the bumper?


He has 3 type nozzles on each spindle. instead of changing the heads all you need to do is rotate them to the head of your choice, great idea. He also has a gauge in the cab of the truck, so he can adjust the pressure as needed.

Regards Mike


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## scoot98758

I am building a liquid unit right now also and I was wondering when you said "He also has a gauge in the cab of the truck, so he can adjust the pressure as needed." What product are you using to monitor/adjust the pressure?


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## flykelley

scoot98758;682097 said:


> I am building a liquid unit right now also and I was wondering when you said "He also has a gauge in the cab of the truck, so he can adjust the pressure as needed." What product are you using to monitor/adjust the pressure?


Hi Scoot
I think it is made by teejet, but I will have to ask him. It is a small controller that has a gauge filled with oil or some other liquid and 4 buttons one for each side and the middle and on to raise or lower the pressure. This was one of the more costly parts of the build from what he told me.

Regards Mike


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## turboguy

That is a TeeJet 744A controller.


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## Superior L & L

http://www.dultmeier.com/products/search/2395

This is the one we got


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## Superior L & L

Well, i figure i will let you know of our results. We finished the sprayer 9 hours before a 10" daytime storm came in. We didnt have any storage tanks yet at our location so we went and picked up some well brine about half hour from us. The guy who filled said people had good results using some stream and some fan tips on the same boom. 

One of our employee's went out on the madden voyage with it since he really was the builder of the unit (me and partner were pointers). the unit worked great, total in cab controls and very powerful. The results on the other hand were not real good at all. I did expect this, since it was a daytime storm most lots had tons ! of hard pack snow on them from all the cars driving on it all day. We just wanted to relay play with it. 

I dont know, but im hopeful this will work on the dusting's we get that just slick the lots up and after plowing to take the glaze away and make the lot wet instead of a ice rink.

Build picks to come after i get some rest


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## John Mac

I have to admit that I am impressed with the fact that you guys are taking such a big leap of faith in this new idea of salt brine. You guys have spent lost of money to see if it works. I just don;t trust it yet, rather have some else spend to find out. In my area no one has done this yet. Bulk salt works, that I know for sure. Are you guys thinking that a combination of liquid and bulk is the answer. Most of time I need something to burn off .5 to 2" at 20 degrees.


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## Superior L & L

I have talked to many people on here and around my area that use it. Like everyone has said its not to replace salt just something to reduce the amount of salt we use. 

We never need to burn off .5-2" of snow because we plow at 1" and with salt being at a prime price it would cost way to much to burn off 2"


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## lawnprolawns

Lets see some pics Superior! My project is on stand-by at the moment. I've been too busy plowing and salting! I haven't had time to go get the rest of the parts either. Monday I need to do some last minute Christmas shopping. Tuesday looks like a plow/salt say, Wednesday/Thursday is Christmas, maybe Friday I can have some fun building. We'll see. I, too, hope it will work well for dustings and cleaning up after plowing.


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## hardscaper

We've been running these for the past 6 years. Frame is galvanized spraybar is stainless. Highly recommend use of baffle balls for surge protection.


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## Superior L & L

here are some pics from earlyer


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## Superior L & L

It was 7 degress out this morning and it worked great!


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## Superior L & L

Applyed at about 70 gallons per acre and within 5-6 mins it was starting to melt. 1.5 hours later it was water. Some lots never turned to water today due to how low the temps were.

We tryed the a combination of fan and stream tip but ultimately only the stream tips worked. the fans didint appear to get down to the black top


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## Superior L & L

Word on the street is that some salt suppliers are restricting shipments already! looks liek we built this at the right time


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## Ropinghorns

This thread wins the most interesting of the year award for those of us who are putting our sprayers together for the first time. Thanks so much!!!!!!!!!! Bill www.lantermantractor.com


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## PerfiCut Inc.

You applied the liquid over 1/2" of accumulation? or did yo also pre-treat the pavement as well?

When your done for the night, do you have to make sure the system is flushed out? I would think if you dont flush it out, your risk bursting a line or worse yet cracking the pump.


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## Superior L & L

We plowed the lot then it got a little dusting, we did no pre treatments. We did not drain the system opps! It is set up so we can. Its not going to crack the motor this stuff is good to way below zero. But some guy on here (or somwhere) said we should put a air chuck on it and blow it all out every night


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## PerfiCut Inc.

How much salt do you think you saved by applying the liquid? 

How was that lot the next morning? did you have any refreeze?


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## Mark Oomkes

Superior L & L;687013 said:


> Applyed at about 70 gallons per acre and within 5-6 mins it was starting to melt. 1.5 hours later it was water. Some lots never turned to water today due to how low the temps were.
> 
> We tryed the a combination of fan and stream tip but ultimately only the stream tips worked. the fans didint appear to get down to the black top


Hmmm, where have I heard that before?



PerfiCut Inc.;689146 said:


> You applied the liquid over 1/2" of accumulation? or did yo also pre-treat the pavement as well?
> 
> When your done for the night, do you have to make sure the system is flushed out? I would think if you dont flush it out, your risk bursting a line or worse yet cracking the pump.


Ummm, he is using a DE-ICER, how\why would you burst a line or crack the pump?

In over 7 years we have never flushed our 'system' and never had a burst line or cracked pump.


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## Superior L & L

PerfiCut Inc.;690824 said:


> How much salt do you think you saved by applying the liquid?
> 
> How was that lot the next morning? did you have any refreeze?


We are still learning/testing the applications rates and system itself so we have only used it on two sites.(one 3 acre one 6 acre) we probably saved 4-5 tons of salt. The salt would have cost about $650 and the liquid cost $300 so it has worked out so far. We will increase our savings a lot more once we can store liquid on site and buy in bulk.

Im sure there will be times when we have to go to 90-100 gallons a acre and the saving will be less


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## traviswalker007

*dumb question*

I noticed you said you could not burn off snow?? is the brine the same as calcim chloride that some DOT uses or is this brine something diffrent. I would imagine that if i was to invest that kind of money in a liquid deicing unit, i would want to feel confident that i can burn off what ever is on the ground realisticaly of course, calcium chloride should burn off 2' of packed snow easy? i also noticed the savings from useing bulk salt vs the liquid, i like that, but would you of gotten the same effect in that lot if you used less salt but pre-treated it first? my next question is coould i use a basic lawn spray rig for de-icing with out having to change alot of stuff, broad question i know, but are there special pumps, ect that need to be used as to not eat away any seals or metal parts? 3rd and last, i see you saved 50% over salt on this piticular lot, but with all the investment in equipment, plus the material how much will you acttualy save dollar wise over salt? 10%, 20% ect. I applaude you guys for an excellent thread, and enginenuity on the deicer. Also how much will it cost in future repairs by useing calcium chloride on the moving parts of the truck and equipment..thanks and good job


----------



## Superior L & L

Im still learning so im sure someone one here could answer some of these better than me but i will give it a shot

noticed you said you could not burn off snow?? is the brine the same as calcim chloride that some DOT uses or is this brine something diffrent. I would imagine that if i was to invest that kind of money in a liquid deicing unit, i would want to feel confident that i can burn off what ever is on the ground realisticaly of course, calcium chloride should burn off 2' of packed snow easy? 
I think it is the same product, our local county uses a manufactured product but it started as calcium chloride Brine. I tryed using it on packed snow about a week ago and did not have great result. I did not expect it to work after talking to different people but i wanted to know for myself. We dont try and burn that much snow off anyways. Anything over a inch we plow, our accounts want to look good when they open not three hours later after the snow has melted and the slop has melted. Im sure this product would melt .5-1" of fluffy snow very quickly 

i also noticed the savings from useing bulk salt vs the liquid, i like that, but would you of gotten the same effect in that lot if you used less salt but pre-treated it first? 
Dont know ! I do know the savings are going to change. We will see bigger savings in product cost but our labor will increase because of the increased application time over salt 

my next question is coould i use a basic lawn spray rig for de-icing with out having to change alot of stuff, broad question i know, but are there special pumps, ect that need to be used as to not eat away any seals or metal parts?
Yes, I think I have have seen posts on here about this and people say you can. I think you have to change something to increase volume

i see you saved 50% over salt on this piticular lot, but with all the investment in equipment, plus the material how much will you acttualy save dollar wise over salt? 10%, 20% ect. I applaude you guys for an excellent thread, and enginenuity on the deicer.
We added liquid to our "menu" due to the possible continued salt shortage and then even higher prices. The equipement wil be payed for within the next 3 applications once we start using it on more lots. We intend to have a 4 hour deicing route for this truck once the large quantity of liquid arrives. I dont know for sure but i think our savings will stay in the 50 % range. We typically salt 50-60 times a season so we have plenty of time to recouple any additonal items i may have missed.

Also how much will it cost in future repairs by useing calcium chloride on the moving parts of the truck and equipment..
i dont know i will tell you in April . It either damage from salt or damage from liquid take your pick !


----------



## PerfiCut Inc.

How effective is the salt brine over the calcium brine? and why are you not making the solution yourself?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

PerfiCut Inc.;691720 said:


> How effective is the salt brine over the calcium brine? and why are you not making the solution yourself?


Do you make your own salt?

How about fertilizer?

Personally, I am in the business of applying chemicals--pesticides\fert and de-icing--not manufacturing them. I am providing my customers with a service, not a product I made, sort of gets away from what our industry is. But that's just me.

Besides, if salt is already sky high in price and availability is limited, how is one going to make their own salt brine at an economical cost? Sort of defeating the whole purpose of the exercise.


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## Superior L & L

Im with Mark. Im a installer/applicator not producer. I only have so many hour in a day and making liquid isnt in my schedule. with planning for next spring, the wife, looking at last years stuff, the wife, plowing, the wife, salting, repairs and everything else i dont have time to deal with that ...oh and two kids


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## Superior L & L

This is the product we will be ordering

Liquid Calcium Chloride Brine
21 to 24% Calcium Chloride 
4.11 to 5% Magnesium Chloride 
1.68 to 2% Potassium Chloride 
3.78 to 4% Sodium Chloride

http://www.thechlorideguy.com/


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## PerfiCut Inc.

What does it cost to buy it pre mixed? And can you fill up day or night? or does the your supplier have normal day time hours?


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## John Mac

What do you store it in at the shop and how do you get the product from storage to truck?. How many gallons would you keep on hand? Do liquid suppliers come to your shop with a tanker truck to fill storage container? How many manufacturers make a built slip in unit.


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## Superior L & L

a large number of the salt retailers are now selling liquid. They are about 30 min drive from us. They are open when it snows so you can buy it anytime. They charge from .50 cent to a $1 a gallon.

We will be holding about 4-5000 gallons at our shop (hopefully) and its delivered in liquid trucks that can haul 9000 gallons at a time(michigan weights for roads are nuts!)Pricing like everything else is all over the place. From .15cent if you take 9000 to somewhere in the .40 cents on the lower quantitys and depending from who you buy it from. 

We will fill with the pump on the truck. There is a quick coupler at the back that when you though a valve will allow you to fill the tank. We also have a couple of trash pumps that do 150 gallons a min if all else fails


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## Superior L & L

Possibly looking to get more quantity of liquid at our building. If anyone in mid michigan would like to purchase some liquid let me know.


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## Runner

Are you still over by Monroe and Skaff?


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## Mark Oomkes

FWIW, those pencil tip nozzles worked great yesterday AM in the 30+ MPH, while driving 10-15 MPH. 

Bet those fan type nozzles wouldn't have fared so well. xysport

Actually, the 2 side booms were being turned into fan type nozzles in the wind.


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## Superior L & L

Runner;694263 said:


> Are you still over by Monroe and Skaff?


Yes sir !!!!


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## Superior L & L

Mark Oomkes;694277 said:


> FWIW, those pencil tip nozzles worked great yesterday AM in the 30+ MPH, while driving 10-15 MPH.
> 
> Bet those fan type nozzles wouldn't have fared so well. xysport
> 
> Actually, the 2 side booms were being turned into fan type nozzles in the wind.


We only tryed the fan tips once. We have had great luck with the steam so we will keep using them for now. It just does melt down as quick if there is no traffic


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## lawnprolawns

Our rig is just about complete.. just waiting on a pump from evilbay.

I was at TSC looking at all the spray tips, etc, but they were out of most stuff. Ended up going to Home Depot and using Rain Bird sprinkler tips for the "misting" sprinklers. The fan is adjustable and they allow high volume at pretty low pressures, and the droplets are rather large, so there wont be too much mist floating away in the wind. 

I paid 100 for the tank, 80 for the pump, and about 20 bucks for everything else (sprinkler parts and some PVC pipe and fittings) The rest of the rig is made from scrap from the shop. If I can get a half-decent spray rig for around 200 bucks I'll be happy. At least I can get my feet wet (no pun intended) with liquid de-icing, and expand from there next year.


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## Superior L & L

Our John deere rep said a bunch of his customers used mist head nozzles for there deicers. As long as you know sprinklers you can have a lot of control over gallons per min / per acre


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## Brian Young

Nice job Superior, I tried the liquid thing this year and so far so good. We have a very simple system, a 300gallon skid tank, a Banjo electric shut off valve along with a Banjo manual shut off and all gravity fed. I was looking into a pressurized system but ours comes out with some serious pressure even when there is only about 50 gallons left or so. So I figured why spend the money. I did find a nice 5hp pump for transfering in Northern Tool ....2" ports, EPDM seals, thermo plastic housing and impeller, all for under 300 bucks! I'm ordering it as soon as some of these deadbeat commercials pay up! Then if I wanted to go to a pressure system I can and still draft with this pump. I need to pick your guys brains when that time comes. The dealer I get liquid from sells pressure units but to the tune of 4k to start and he drew me a diagram but it was like reading another language so I'll wait til' next year and hopefully have a heavier flatbed truck to put a 750 gallon tank on.


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## Brian Young

I had a question for you guys....do they make a spray tip thats more of a combo unit? One that you can just turn and go from stream to fan.


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## flykelley

Brian Young;694893 said:


> I had a question for you guys....do they make a spray tip thats more of a combo unit? One that you can just turn and go from stream to fan.


Hi Brian
Look at the pictures that I posted, it is a triple headed tip, you rotate it to the tip head you want to use.

Regards Mike


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## Brian Young

flykelley;694974 said:


> Hi Brian
> Look at the pictures that I posted, it is a triple headed tip, you rotate it to the tip head you want to use.
> 
> Regards Mike


This is exactly what I was looking for. Where did you get them or did you have to make them, thanks.


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## flykelley

Brian Young;695014 said:


> This is exactly what I was looking for. Where did you get them or did you have to make them, thanks.


Hey Brian
I sent you a PM.

Regards Mike


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## Brian Young

flykelley;695096 said:


> Hey Brian
> I sent you a PM.
> 
> Regards Mike


Mike, I didnt get the PM.


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## flykelley

Brian Young;695139 said:


> Mike, I didnt get the PM.


Hi Brian
Well that is weird. I will post it here instead. The guy who built that deicer unit works for a company called Your way Property Service in Milford MI. I do some sub work for them so I was able to go take some picture's. Call 248 676 8508 and ask for Travis tell him I sent you.
He will be able to either sell you some or tell you were he bought them at.

Good Luck Mike


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## Brian Young

flykelley;695173 said:


> Hi Brian
> Well that is weird. I will post it here instead. The guy who built that deicer unit works for a company called Your way Property Service in Milford MI. I do some sub work for them so I was able to go take some picture's. Call 248 676 8508 and ask for Travis tell him I sent you.
> He will be able to either sell you some or tell you were he bought them at.
> 
> Good Luck Mike


Thanks Mike but I found them....TEEJET makes them. They come in 3,4,5 position nozzles. havent got the price yet.


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## Superior L & L

http://www.dultmeier.com/products/search/2243

about $10 a piece at dultmeier


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## flykelley

Hi Guys
I got a friend who lives in Northern Mi and I was telling him I was going to build a liquid deicer unit. He asked me why couldn't you just run a line from your tank to a power washer and from the power washer down to the spreader bar? I told him I didn't think you could keep enough water volume at the power washer to keep a good supply of water to the power washer. Seems like if you could get enough water to the power washer it would work. Told him I would ask the questions but I have doubts that it would work ok. Lets hear your comments and thoughts. I have been going through the catalog and making a list of things to order next week. 

Regards Mike


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## lawnprolawns

I considered that also. Some more expensive washers have an auto-recirculating valve that keeps some water moving through a small loop. You could copy that and have it go back into the tank to keep things cool. Also, you probably wouldn't want a monster 3500psi unit.. maybe something closer to 1000 or so, seeing as how you dont want things to get too misty. 

Then again, a pump like what superior used is probably cheaper than a pressure washer.


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## Superior L & L

lawnprolawns;697212 said:


> I
> Then again, a pump like what superior used is probably cheaper than a pressure washer.


Thats what i was going to say. Electric $100.00, Gas motor w/ roller pump $300 or like we used for $500 i dont think its worth considering using a pressure washer


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## flykelley

Superior L & L;697251 said:


> Thats what i was going to say. Electric $100.00, Gas motor w/ roller pump $300 or like we used for $500 i dont think its worth considering using a pressure washer


Hi Superior
Does the motor/pump you have a electric start? If not how hard has it been to start it? Do you keep it in a heated bay when its not being used? I found a Honda 160x with a pump and electric start but it is just north of $900.00. Also once you start it do you leave it running along the whole route or shut it down between job sites? I think I am heading to Fort Wayne on Tuesday to pick my tank up.

Thanks Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

No electric start. We Have had no problems yet. We have been pulling the salt/plow trucks out of the shop and will pull the liquid truck in. While we are plowing the truck/motor warm up for a couple of hours before it goes out. We run the motor between sites when there close and shut it off for long travels.

I dont think you will have problems with a pull start. We used to run briggs on all our vboxes and left them outside and they pulled fine. I would probably get a 15 gallon tote from Target and though it over the motor with some insulation in it when its real cold.

Or if you realy want electric start try smallenginewarehouse for a deal


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## flykelley

Hi superior
Any chance I can stop by your shop in the next couple of days and look at your deicer? You can send me a Pm if you would like. 

Thanks Mike


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## Bigmikesseasonal

Hey Guys, I have been using Liquid Calcium Chloride Brine since on my lots since Jan 2008 so this is my second year in liquid. I also see that there is not anyone here that knows much about how to use this product! 

Let me say that my customers love this stuff, I can melt about 1 1/2" of snow with my set up! I have seen alot of guys trying this and everyone is failing. The systems on the market are mainly designed for prewetting only. I have modified a turbo turf setup I bought from them last year and it didnt perform either. My system has a 5.5 honda and it puts out about 25 gals a min. at 50 psi, a flow meter and I have elec valves & manuals also. My application speeds vary from 15 mph for prewet. and approx. 10 mph for deicing. I can fill my truck with my pump and also put it back in a storage tank if nessary. It takes about 5 mins. to pump 300 gals. in or out of it. I put out approx. 150 gals per acre minium to melt snow. Most of the electric systems out do not work don't waste your time or money. I can get anyone who is interested a elec. system that puts out 20 gals. per min. You have to remember its not about pressure it is about volume.I have used the stuff from dow and the brine and for the money I will stick with the brine if your in the local area I can get you set up with a supplier if needed I store about 5,000 gals at my yard for my use that fills my truck about 15 times. I will never use salt or pay those kind of prices ever . Another thing about driving with liquid is u better know what the hell your doing or your gonna get a wave that will shove you threw an inttersection if your not careful, I'm looking for baffels now. 
You can reach me here or Bigmikesseasonal @comcast.net or 248-887-0917 Good Luck, Mike
PS Salt is overrated what a joke!


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

Hey Guys, I have been using Liquid Calcium Chloride Brine since on my lots since Jan 2008 so this is my second year in liquid. I also see that there is not anyone here that knows much about how to use this product! 

Let me say that my customers love this stuff, I can melt about 1 1/2" of snow with my set up! I have seen alot of guys trying this and everyone is failing. The systems on the market are mainly designed for prewetting only. I have modified a turbo turf setup I bought from them last year and it didnt perform either. My system has a 5.5 honda and it puts out about 25 gals a min. at 50 psi, a flow meter and I have elec valves & manuals also. My application speeds vary from 15 mph for prewet. and approx. 10 mph for deicing. I can fill my truck with my pump and also put it back in a storage tank if nessary. It takes about 5 mins. to pump 300 gals. in or out of it. I put out approx. 150 gals per acre minium to melt snow. Most of the electric systems out do not work don't waste your time or money. I can get anyone who is interested a elec. system that puts out 20 gals. per min. You have to remember its not about pressure it is about volume.I have used the stuff from dow and the brine and for the money I will stick with the brine if your in the local area I can get you set up with a supplier if needed I store about 5,000 gals at my yard for my use that fills my truck about 15 times. I will never use salt or pay those kind of prices ever . Another thing about driving with liquid is u better know what the hell your doing or your gonna get a wave that will shove you threw an inttersection if your not careful, I'm looking for baffels now. Oh yes I can spray about a 30 ft path if its not to windy!
You can reach me here or Bigmikesseasonal @comcast.net or 248-887-0917 Good Luck, Mike
PS Salt is overrated what a joke!


----------



## Superior L & L

Big Mike, lets see some pics

Oh and welcome


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

Superior L & L;697957 said:


> Big Mike, lets see some pics
> 
> Oh and welcome


I will take some tommorrow and post as soon as possible


----------



## flykelley

Bigmikesseasona;697965 said:


> I will take some tommorrow and post as soon as possible


Hi Big Mike
As Superior said welcome to Plowsite, and glad to see another so close to my area. I am going to start building a unit, gas powered with I think a Honda 160X. It will also be set up to fill or empty my tank. What type of heads are you using? Also am I understanding you right that you have burned 1 1/2 inch of snow with a liquid? Most guys that have tried that only made slush out of it, wondering what process you used to burn that much snow. Also where do you buy your liquid, I know Mtec is getting 50 cents a gallon.

Thanks Mike


----------



## elite1msmith

id like to here more about this


i have a question

150 gals per acre? so whats the cost on 150 gals? becasue i can treat 1 acre with salt for about (700lbs) 50 bucks or so depending


also , 150 gals per acre? how much does your truck hold...i have 10 acre sites...so thats 1500 gal per event , just on that one site?

also , , as much as you said you don tlike the electric.... iv been trying to find electricpumpsthat do more than 10 gal per min... a 20 would be great if you know of one


----------



## flykelley

elite1msmith;698024 said:


> id like to here more about this
> 
> i have a question
> 
> 150 gals per acre? so whats the cost on 150 gals? becasue i can treat 1 acre with salt for about (700lbs) 50 bucks or so depending
> 
> also , 150 gals per acre? how much does your truck hold...i have 10 acre sites...so thats 1500 gal per event , just on that one site?
> 
> also , , as much as you said you don tlike the electric.... iv been trying to find electricpumpsthat do more than 10 gal per min... a 20 would be great if you know of one


 Hi Elite
Around here 150 gallons would cost $75.00 if my math is right. The going rate is 50 cents a gallon in our area. Bulk salt is going for $140.00 a ton and the supply is getting tighter everyday. My supplier say he will not get another load for 20 days. He has 150 tons on site right now and that will not last 20 days at the rate we are going through it.

Regards Mike


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

flykelley;697999 said:


> Hi Big Mike
> As Superior said welcome to Plowsite, and glad to see another so close to my area. I am going to start building a unit, gas powered with I think a Honda 160X. It will also be set up to fill or empty my tank. What type of heads are you using? Also am I understanding you right that you have burned 1 1/2 inch of snow with a liquid? Most guys that have tried that only made slush out of it, wondering what process you used to burn that much snow. Also where do you buy your liquid, I know Mtec is getting 50 cents a gallon.
> 
> Thanks Mike


My truck holds 300 gallons,
150 gallons is the same as 1 ton of salt, my cost is $45.00 for materials thats a alot cheaper than $100.00 a ton in my book! Mtec is selling Michigan chloride they also have the same spray rig I started with mine cost last year about $3,800.00 there now about $6,000 I think! I can show you how it works in person or i will try and take pics tommorrow! Most guys are only using 50 gals per acre according to John Deere specs. I have friend who is selling booms and complete 12 volt setups for $2,000.00 and it puts out about 20 gals per min. we only use fan nozzles I use an modified nozzle or a teejet 8030SS (VOLUME, VOLUME, VOLUME) My lots look like it just got done raining on them when were done! Call Craig at TOOL TIME in Highland 248-889-7368 and tell him Big Mike sent ya!


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

elite1msmith;698024 said:


> id like to here more about this
> 
> i have a question
> 
> 150 gals per acre? so whats the cost on 150 gals? becasue i can treat 1 acre with salt for about (700lbs) 50 bucks or so depending
> 
> also , 150 gals per acre? how much does your truck hold...i have 10 acre sites...so thats 1500 gal per event , just on that one site?
> 
> also , , as much as you said you don tlike the electric.... iv been trying to find electricpumpsthat do more than 10 gal per min... a 20 would be great if you know of one


1500 gals would run about $450.00


----------



## Runner

Bigmikesseasona;698096 said:


> I can show you how it works in person or i will try and take pics tommorrow! we only use fan nozzles I use an modified nozzle or a teejet 8030SS (VOLUME, VOLUME, VOLUME) My lots look like it just got done raining on them when were done!


Thank you for clarifying this. There was some misunderstanding on this earlier, from what I was trying to explain. I was trying to emphasize a floodjet nozzle for greater volumes (and larger droplet size), but someone took it as me saying they were using the "wrong" nozzles for using stream. I can see an advantage to using stream in some windy conditions, but if you can get a large enough droplet size with a spray (from a larger nozzle) in conjunction with the right volume (low pressure), and have these nozzles low enough, then it seems the coverage would be much more adequate. This is much like the one in the pics that Flykelly posted, I believe. Superiors sure seems to be working well, just taking a bit longer to spread out once it is applied. With the spray though, this seems that it would provide better coverage for melting off in some conditions. 
Superior, (I still don't know who this is, lol), thank you for the info and the pics provided. I saw your truck sitting outside the other morning when I made a stop at Monroe ("wearbar Wednesday special") . I wanted to stop in and say hi and have a look, but I didn't want to intrude or impose. I'm sure we'll meet eventually, since we know some of the same people (Jim D. and John K. to name a few). I've heard nothing but good things about you guys. :waving:


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

Thanks Runner,

You understand how it works! I don't use floods just fans but they put out the volume nessary to keep applications and speeds up on my truck, plus I can spray a 30 ft path,but I try to keep it at 20-25 ft! I also have found your boom needs to be about 18 to 24 inches above the pavement!

This material works from the bottom up not so much as from the top down! Calcium Liquid starts working the minute it comes in contact with moisture and contiues to feed off of it till the product is gone! Remember this stuff is bio-degradeball and dillutes with water. Thanks Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

Runner;698408 said:


> Superior, (I still don't know who this is, lol), thank you for the info and the pics provided. I saw your truck sitting outside the other morning when I made a stop at Monroe ("wearbar Wednesday special") . I wanted to stop in and say hi and have a look, but I didn't want to intrude or impose. I'm sure we'll meet eventually, since we know some of the same people (Jim D. and John K. to name a few). I've heard nothing but good things about you guys. :waving:


Come on over, if my avy is in the lot im around there somewhere


----------



## Superior L & L

flykelley;698037 said:


> Hi Elite
> Around here 150 gallons would cost $75.00 if my math is right. The going rate is 50 cents a gallon in our area. Bulk salt is going for $140.00 a ton and the supply is getting tighter everyday.


Yard of salt covers two acres so the liquid would be more than salt cost. So we have to find a cheaper product or put less down.

I would never try to melt that much snow anyways. I would plow it then put it down at 75 gallons per acre. The product im using is in the twentys per gallon


----------



## Superior L & L

Bigmikesseasona;698096 said:


> I use an modified nozzle or a teejet 8030SS (VOLUME, VOLUME, VOLUME) !


Where do you buy your nozzels and $$$$ if you dont mind me asking


----------



## flykelley

Hi Guys
As someone said in a another post in this thread, I think this is the thread of the year. Lots of insights and alot of members helping out other members. There is alot of info out there about liquid just remember what will work for me may not work for you. Alot of it depends on surface temps, how much snow and ice what type of liquid and how you are spraying it. Any ways its great to see everyone sharing their info and set ups.

Regards Mike


----------



## powerjoke

i am getting to the scene a little late, but i am alway's up for a good arguement lol so here it goes/.....



Cash;673547 said:


> 1000 gallons plus the weight of that unit is twice the weight of the truck, and the truck will be overloaded by well over 2.5 tons.
> 
> that's only 5-6 ton,........that 3500hd is fine





elite1msmith;674002 said:


> now im a little interested in this , i will be using stream nozzels, spaced every 10 inches as PJ said to do. how fare apart were your nozzels?
> 
> you'll be fine with 10"





Superior L & L;674015 said:


> Do you know what degree fan nozzels too use?
> 
> degreee isn't as big of deal (they are all 80*-110*) as the height, and the spaceing,.....also if not useing quickjet's ( or other self indexing cap&body) make sure that youre fan stream's don't colide, by rotating the nozzle a little.





Cash;674034 said:


> I've seen those stream or flood nozzles as you guys call them and could never figure out why youd use those vs a fanjet nozzle. I understand the principle of melting the ice from the bottom up too but there has to be a better nozzle than those floods or open tips.
> 
> two differ types of nozzle's.....and i think you mean "boom-jet" that conver's ~40' .....i dont use them on my farm sparayer's or my calcium sprayer's 'casue of drift and in-acuracy,.....they require something like a 50% overlap for consistant coverage
> 
> One thing you all need to be concerned about especially when using retrofitted tanks is theres probably no baffeling and theres nothing worse than driving around with a half full unbaffled load of liquid.
> 
> Baffle Ball's are great,.......a 100gal tank on my little truck, had a too small of an opening to get the baffle ball's on......so i took a bunch of 3" PVC pipe and cut it into 18" peices and put it into the tank......Work's Great!





elite1msmith;674037 said:


> the problem from fan nozzels , is the mist it creates.. sometimes after a storm its very windy here.... and the 10 mph that im trying to drive and spray at isnt gonna help either.... so a fan nozzel ,25-50% might not acctually make the ground, it might be air born .... plus i really dont want the stuff blowing towards my truck , liquid calcium is BAD news for metal
> 
> it's a good reason to run a large nozzle at low PSI....or they also make "air induction" nozzles for thing's like this





Bigmikesseasonal;698429 said:


> Thanks Runner,
> 
> You understand how it works! I don't use floods just fans but they put out the volume nessary to keep applications and speeds up on my truck, plus I can spray a 30 ft path,but I try to keep it at 20-25 ft! I also have found your boom needs to be about 18 to 24 inches above the pavement!
> 
> how can you spray a 30' path with fan nozzle's without haveing a 30' boom??????......are you meaning a "boom-jet" nozzle?....if so see my reply to "cash's" post above
> 
> This material works from the bottom up not so much as from the top down! Calcium Liquid starts working the minute it comes in contact with moisture and contiues to feed off of it till the product is gone! Remember this stuff is bio-degradeball and dillutes with water. Thanks Mike


ALL MELTER'S WORK FROM THE BOTTOM UP! liquid is not special in that aspect alone,.........all de-icer's also work untill it is diluted (not "gone") .......Most all deicer's have a impact on the enviroment......i dunno what u mean by bio-degradable.......And as far as the "dilutes with water" ????? ALL DEICER'S ARE WATER SOLUABLE.....what do you think ICE is made of  lmao.......sound's like you have been a victom of a salesman's speach about his super specail product 

PJ


----------



## powerjoke

Superior L & L;698450 said:


> Where do you buy your nozzels and $$$$ if you dont mind me asking


Paul, the XR teejet should run you around $3 from heartlandagri.......800-889-6161

PJ


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

PJ, Boy you are hard on a guy that is trying to help!

So let me start over by saying liquid calcium is instant melting! I only spray about a 20 Ft path because of drifting, my truck is capable of spraying 30 Ft. Also let me say its not biodegradeable it just dillutes with water. All products we use to melt snow & ice are corrosive espically on metal, but I would rather pay for liquid than pay for salt all over the inside of my truck bed by a lazy loader operator at a landscape supply yard that weighs you in and out! Plus it doesn't cost $15.00 to wash all of that wasted salt out of your truck that you had to pay for! MY LIQUID COMES OUT OF THE GROUND!


----------



## elite1msmith

Superior L & L;698446 said:


> Yard of salt covers two acres so the liquid would be more than salt cost. So we have to find a cheaper product or put less down.
> 
> I would never try to melt that much snow anyways. I would plow it then put it down at 75 gallons per acre. The product im using is in the twentys per gallon


i can say that for a fair application , 1 ton covers 3 acres


----------



## flykelley

Bigmikesseasonal;698735 said:


> PJ, Boy you are hard on a guy that is trying to help!
> 
> So let me start over by saying liquid calcium is instant melting! I only spray about a 20 Ft path because of drifting, my truck is capable of spraying 30 Ft. Also let me say its not biodegradeable it just dillutes with water. All products we use to melt snow & ice are corrosive espically on metal, but I would rather pay for liquid than pay for salt all over the inside of my truck bed by a lazy loader operator at a landscape supply yard that weighs you in and out! Plus it doesn't cost $15.00 to wash all of that wasted salt out of your truck that you had to pay for! MY LIQUID COMES OUT OF THE GROUND!


Hi Big Mike
If you don't mind me asking how much are you paying for liquid per gallon and where do you buy it at. I hope to have my unit built in the next two weeks and I will be ready for some liquid. MTECs liquid i think is 23% and they are getting 50 cents a gallon. Would love to stop by and check out your rig sometime soon.

Regards Mike


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

I get mine direct shipped its alot cheaper if you have the storage tanks! I have storage for just under 5,000 gals. Most pick up prices I know of are about 50 cents a gallon which is not too bad! TOOL TIME IN HIGHLAND HAS COMPLETE RIGS FOR $ 2,000.00 AND LIQUID FOR 50 CENTS A GALLON 248-889-7368 ASK FOR CRAIG & TELL HIM I SENT YOU! 

You can check out my rig on my profile page or on the thread about liquid deicers pics!


----------



## Superior L & L

*Liquid Gold*

Just got the tanks filled today.(2)1500 (1)1000 and 1000 on the truck

LET IT SNOW .........................just a dusting


----------



## lawnprolawns

You seem to have a giant Twinkie on your truck. How long do you suppose all that liquid will last you?


----------



## Superior L & L

4-5 deicing events


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

How much are you planing on putting in that tank? Take it from me on a 300 gal. tank when you take out 150 gals it causes some major wave action, enough to make you sea sick!


----------



## Superior L & L

Bigmikesseasonal;699102 said:


> How much are you planing on putting in that tank? !


1000gallons.It didnt seam to bad when i drove it


----------



## Superior L & L

powerjoke;698605 said:


> i am getting to the scene a little late, but i am alway's up for a good arguement lol so here it goes/.....


Wecome to the party Rick


----------



## powerjoke

Bigmikesseasonal;698735 said:


> PJ, Boy you are hard on a guy that is trying to help!
> \
> haha you said hardon lol now seriously.........we already have Elite1smith for that j/k....... but .dont' take it so hard, i just tried to clear some thing's up for you. here is my latest disection of youre latest post lol....again dont take it the wrong way I am only picking on you.....nothing else
> 
> So let me start over by saying liquid calcium is instant melting!
> 
> mmmm....maybee not literaley instant, but it's really fast
> 
> I only spray about a 20 Ft path because of drifting, my truck is capable of spraying 30 Ft.
> 
> seem's like i asked you before how you were doing it?,......it's with boomjet's isnt it? its not that i care, but i just dont want you spraying 30' wide runing down a drive lane between parked car's ......and you need to learn a little about application acurracy, drift and corrosion.
> 
> Also let me say its not biodegradeable it just dillutes with water.
> 
> yeah, i know that but do you?.....if i remember right (and if i don't just check youre post when you said "Remember this stuff is bio-degradeball
> 
> All products we use to melt snow & ice are corrosive espically on metal,
> 
> hence the reason i am worried about you spraying 30' wide  ........if you sold Fluid Film in the lot's that you spray 30' wide you would sell more than girlscout's selling cookies
> 
> but I would rather pay for liquid than pay for salt all over the inside of my truck bed by a lazy loader operator at a landscape supply yard that weighs you in and out! Plus it doesn't cost $15.00
> 
> Yeah,.....that anoying sand rolling around in the back of youre truck is WAYYYY worse than the drift you'll get from spraying 30' wide lmao
> 
> to wash all of that wasted salt out of your truck that you had to pay for!
> 
> That's why most of us use salter's and not 2 mexican's in the back shoveling it out on the ground while you drive
> 
> MY LIQUID COMES OUT OF THE GROUND!
> 
> See.....that is salesman crap talking again,.....do you really think that you know where the ONLY brine well tap is in the whole country is ????





Superior L & L;699163 said:


> Wecome to the party Rick


:waving: hi paul.....why didnt you tell me i was missing so much good info lol

pj


----------



## elite1msmith

Im glad to see i have my place PJ....lol


----------



## lawnprolawns

You must drive your customers crazy. We're not all young kids. We dont think we know everything, and that's why this is a good place. You come in here and tell everyone that they're wrong, or need to do something different. That, to me, is thinking you know everything.


----------



## elite1msmith

i just dont get it then 


ur appling at 150 gals per acre.... your tank on your truck looks like an 300 gal tank? maybe bigger


but thats only 2-3 acres of coverage... my small lots are 2 acres plus... and i wink at those by comparison to my larger lots

your suggesting i should have a rig with 1000 plus gals on board , and after i spray down , i need to re fill?

i could easily put 4 tons of salt in the back of a dump... and have pletty of space left over for more to service other accounts

at 50 cents per gal - 150 gals per acre - 75 dollars just to treat one single acre. bulk would be less than 60 bucks - and bulk rock less use restrictions, and will work well with ice and packed snow

i still dont understand howall summer long some guys have said they applied at 30-50 gals per acre...yes that makes sence, the cost is cheaper... and thats what IDOT and a few others have said they apply at, trust me , im sure they study the stuff with your tax dollars

so back to my thoughts... how is it we went form 30-50 gals per acre --- all the way to 150 ? thats tripple

either ppl are giving advice that they know little about , somthings not right, im no expert on liquids and am trying to learn, but at those applicaiton rates...bulk at 150 per ton is cheaper.... and id rahter use a cheaper product if im abble to

and you could melt ice with almost anything, if you put enought down to do it

why dont we just send mexicans out with papper towels and have them absorb the moistior


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

Hey if I recall you left your # for me to call you which I did! Trying to help you out and now I'm a bad guy! If i can find your # I will call you and you can tell why it is you think I know everthing! My customers I have had since 2000 and I get many on refferals not on running ads in a monthly mag. 

Mike


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

Elite1

The reason I use liquid is that salt prices are $100.00-$150.00 a Ton your cost! I use to use salt and we charged $150.00 a ton or $25.00 a 80# bag and some guys charge 14 cents per pound in Oakland County Michigan! My cost to fill my 300 Gal. tank is $80.00 and a pallet of salt is almost $200.00 around here


----------



## elite1msmith

Bigmikesseasonal;700067 said:


> Elite1
> 
> The reason I use liquid is that salt prices are $100.00-$150.00 a Ton your cost! I use to use salt and we charged $150.00 a ton or $25.00 a 80# bag and some guys charge 14 cents per pound in Oakland County Michigan! My cost to fill my 300 Gal. tank is $80.00 and a pallet of salt is almost $200.00 around here


im jsut really failign to see, were the "big cost savings" is coming from ? at thoseapplication rates

if there is no big savings then why would i want to swtich my equiptment over to liquid and spend money when i already am set up good for bulk. Im just wondering

Like i said all year long ppl were talkign about these low appliaction rates, and the low app cost, but now we are trippeling them ... so there is no savings, and no benifit


----------



## Superior L & L

Couple of things i noticed. 
Big Mike said he used 150 per acre to burn off 1.5" Im sure sometimes he only uses 75 gallons per acre. If its a dusting he probably only uses 50. 
We cannot treat every event the same. To treat 1 acres at that rate would only cost $37 where it would run $65 for salt so im still ahead and since salt is getting hard to find every day even if it cost close to what salt is at least its available.
I would probably plow the 1.5", then apply at 75 per acre and have the lot looking great!


----------



## Superior L & L

Since im here. I was going to head out and pre treat some lots for the freezing drizzle that is coming tonight. Ive been told not to expect great results but im still on the learning curve so i have to find out for myself. The liquid supplier said to preteat and the deice after the storm and it will be good. Does anyone know what application rates i should start with for Anti-icing


----------



## elite1msmith

i would imagine the heavyier the better for ice or freezing rain


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

Superior I guess I need to clarify things! I left you a voice mail so call me when you can. Mike


----------



## powerjoke

Bigmikesseasonal;700258 said:


> Superior I guess I need to clarify things! I left you a voice mail so call me when you can. Mike


why wouldnt you keep it on the board?....you were doing such a good job clearing thing's up so far 

Paul,
personally what i would do (if it was a 24hr place and couldnt wait till morn) would be run about 40gpa, if it was just gonna be black ice, with vertually no precipitation ......

if it were gonna be anything more than 1/4" i would run a little salt out.(just because it normaly rain's before it freezes) and then finish it off in the morn with a little bit of liquid.

i know it's hard to guess how much ice is gonna hit if the weather men dont even have a clue  .......but i gotta hunch you know what youre doing

have fun, 

pj


----------



## Mike_PS

ok, no need to get personal or "jump down anyone's throat" here guys...keep it decent so we don't need to ruin Superior's thread

thanks


----------



## elite1msmith

Bigmikesseasonal;697933 said:


> Hey Guys, I have been using Liquid Calcium Chloride Brine since on my lots since Jan 2008 so this is my second year in liquid. I also see that there is not anyone here that knows much about how to use this product!
> 
> Let me say that my customers love this stuff, I can melt about 1 1/2" of snow with my set up! I have seen alot of guys trying this and everyone is failing. The systems on the market are mainly designed for prewetting only. I have modified a turbo turf setup I bought from them last year and it didnt perform either. My system has a 5.5 honda and it puts out about 25 gals a min. at 50 psi, a flow meter and I have elec valves & manuals also. My application speeds vary from 15 mph for prewet. and approx. 10 mph for deicing. I can fill my truck with my pump and also put it back in a storage tank if nessary. It takes about 5 mins. to pump 300 gals. in or out of it. I put out approx. 150 gals per acre minium to melt snow. Most of the electric systems out do not work don't waste your time or money. I can get anyone who is interested a elec. system that puts out 20 gals. per min. You have to remember its not about pressure it is about volume.I have used the stuff from dow and the brine and for the money I will stick with the brine if your in the local area I can get you set up with a supplier if needed I store about 5,000 gals at my yard for my use that fills my truck about 15 times. I will never use salt or pay those kind of prices ever . Another thing about driving with liquid is u better know what the hell your doing or your gonna get a wave that will shove you threw an inttersection if your not careful, I'm looking for baffels now.
> You can reach me here or Bigmikesseasonal @comcast.net or 248-887-0917 Good Luck, Mike
> PS Salt is overrated what a joke!


ok big mike,...in interested in learning from anyone that has experiance, in fact i have very little , and less than you

but i have a few questions now.... again not taking sides but... PJ has been doing liquid for i dunno 5 yrs or more?ask him? ...ur on yr 2... and really jsut passing your 1yr mark

5000 gals , 15 times? now heres a good question how much do you go thru per stom.? total used?

and the reason i ask that .... im a little guy in the area...jsut afew small lots, and a few bigger ones

150 GALS per acre...as u stated above clearly in red. so i know that if i applied that much to all my lots i would go thru 4000 plus gals or more...and that doesnt include alot of small acounts that i didnt bother to measure

so are your tanks getting refilled every storm? what happens if you use 2500 gals? the semi brings 4000?

i guess im confused as ever now

u sent me a message on my profile stating that the above statement u made didnt say that site was 1 acre....but rather thatu used at least 150 gals to cover it. i can do some simple math ....and i figured this site was 1 acre...maybe i figured wrong? just using your info

i think , u also said 150 gals is the same as 1 ton of salt? well one ton covers way more than 1acre... i think its between 2-3 acres on average

so really instead of all of us calling you.... tell me on here what you know. you have given us all contridicting amounts that you apply.... is that site 1 acre? based on the 150 useage? or is it ....

300 gal tank, looks nice.... but if yoru applying 150 gal per acre..u mean to tell me your biggest lot is 2 acres or less? i think my small lots are that size

and again... show me the cost savings at 150 gals per acre = $75.... i can treat it with bulk for less than 50

i dont have long distance-


----------



## sparky8370

elite1msmith;673554 said:


> umm simple math here.... approx 10.5 lbs per gal x 1000 gals = 10,000 lbs just the weight of the liquid plus all the hardware . so i load my trucks up really over weight ... 5,000 at times... but 10,000? arent most 3500 trucks considered 1 tons? now i know we all go over that , but 4 tons over is a bit much
> 
> of course no one says you have to load it max full
> 
> i hope you have baffles , that long of a tank , the liquid moving around is gonna be fun , especially if its only 1/2 full


Where do you get your weight figures? Salt should reduce the weight of the water by replacing a volume of water with a volume of salt that weighs less. At 10.5lbs per gallon, that's adding over 2 lbs per gallon. The tank + contents should weigh no more than 8705 if the 360lbs figure (total weight of apparatus) was correct. Figuring @ 8.345lbs/gallon.
Still overloaded, but not as dramatically.


----------



## lawnprolawns

salt weights more than water.. thus salt water is more dense and people float really well on the Dead Sea. Speaking of the Dead Sea.. maybe they could truck some of that water to us for de-icing.


----------



## elite1msmith

lawnprolawns;701099 said:


> salt weights more than water.. thus salt water is more dense and people float really well on the Dead Sea. Speaking of the Dead Sea.. maybe they could truck some of that water to us for de-icing.


correct... depending on the exact mix that you are using, i have heard some as high as 11 lbs per gal andif you did some math when calculating your travel time, and the nozzles you need , you would know what the weight per gal would be , becasue it effects the flow, and a larger nozzle will need to be used

tee jet has a nice chart for the calculation... i think u must muitlpy the gals per min of the nozzle... but 1.15 to get the acctual size nozzle you need to buy

if i remember right PJ gave me that link to the web page... and yes, almost everything weighs more than water.... think about it

5 gal bucket of salt weights 50 lbs or a litttle more... 5 gals of water weights less than 40

calcuim is heavier yet


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

Elite1 Dow Chemical of Michigan says 35% calcium weighs 10.8 lbs per gallon 37% weighs 11 pounds per gallon. My sprayer weighs about 450 lbs. Oh yes and that site is 3 acres it always changing due to semi trailers


----------



## elite1msmith

Bigmikesseasonal;701105 said:


> Elite1 Dow Chemical of Michigan says 35% calcium weighs 10.8 lbs per gallon 37% weighs 11 pounds per gallon. My sprayer weighs about 450 lbs. Oh yes and that site is 3 acres it always changing due to semi trailers


sounds right to me


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

600 gals per event


----------



## elite1msmith

ok 3 ACRES... ur making good sense now to me

before u said, that u applied at a MIN of 150 gal per acre? so here your only at 50? and i know alot of guys that spray in the 50 range... so what are they doign wrong?


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

their not putting enough material down cause their systems either cant or thir nozzles arent big enough Each nozzle I have puts out roughly 5 gals a min. most nozzles I have seen on stuff around here I can plug wiith the tip of a tooth pick


----------



## elite1msmith

so then again , 150 gals per acre? but u jsut said u used 150 galson a 3 acre site? 

im sure your correctif they need to put down 150 gals per acre, their systems are not built for it, unless they drive 3 mph

but at that application rate.. i still can do it cheaper with bulk at 135 per ton


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

The problem is that liquid applications are based upon per lane mile. Your just over thinking the whole thing. This is what works for me. All they have to do is try it once, and then tell me it doesn't work. 300 gallons only cost me 80.00 Maybe you should just stick to salt because your comfortable using it and don't want to spend the money getting a liquid setup. I have a useless in Michigan SS Vbox salter I will sell ya ! Go to Dowchemical .com and look up calcium.


----------



## elite1msmith

im interested in the SS vbox, none the less ....so happens im in the market


i must be over thinking this...... but ustated 150 gals per acre in your post... then you stated 150 in 3 acres....so thats all i wanted to know... i think you cleared it up


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

$ 500.00 & Its yours come get it. 2005 Airflow


----------



## elite1msmith

ill give you a call on that ill come pick that up this week if your totally serious


----------



## Superior L & L

Well we pretreated at about 60-70 gallons per acre and they stayed wet the whole time. the lots next to ours were sheets of ice and we had wet pavement. Our lots looked slick and glazed but it was all just wet. Im asuming the "look" of glaze was just the product.


----------



## flykelley

Superior L & L;701800 said:


> Well we pretreated at about 60-70 gallons per acre and they stayed wet the whole time. the lots next to ours were sheets of ice and we had wet pavement. Our lots looked slick and glazed but it was all just wet. Im asuming the "look" of glaze was just the product.


Hi Paul
I was just thinking about you and wondering how it went today. Of course I had to go throw some rock salt this am. I can't wait till I get my parts and get my sprayer built.

Regards Mike


----------



## lawnprolawns

Superior, 

Did you pre-treat while everything was dry? Also, does the product evaporate or did it actually stay wet the whole time?

Glad to hear it worked!


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

It stays wet the whole time. Glad to hear it worked for you Paul.


----------



## lawnprolawns

Okay. I've heard some stuff, I forget where, about people pre-treating as far as 5-6 days in advance. Have you tried this Mike? any luck, or is it a waste of time?


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

lawnprolawns;701828 said:


> Okay. I've heard some stuff, I forget where, about people pre-treating as far as 5-6 days in advance. Have you tried this Mike? any luck, or is it a waste of time?


Yes I have gone four days ahead, and my friend that sprays the roads for Oakland County says they have too as long as we don't get rain. But thats just for anti-icing it really works on cutting your plow time down due to easier pushing! At least thats what results I get so take it for what its worth!


----------



## Leisure Time LC

Superior L & L;701800 said:


> Well we pretreated at about 60-70 gallons per acre and they stayed wet the whole time. the lots next to ours were sheets of ice and we had wet pavement. Our lots looked slick and glazed but it was all just wet. Im asuming the "look" of glaze was just the product.


It will stay wet for a few days until the sun hits it and evaporates off the pavement. Glad it work for you. I still have not used any bulk salt this year except some sidewalks that my hose could not reach... payuppayuppayup


----------



## elite1msmith

hey big mike, are u still interested in selling that spreader? 



how do u find the liquid works with "wet snows or ice" still a heavy app?


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

Leisure Time LC;701832 said:


> It will stay wet for a few days until the sun hits it and evaporates off the pavement. Glad it work for you. I still have not used any bulk salt this year except some sidewalks that my hose could not reach... payuppayuppayup


Haven't used any salt since Jan. 2007 and don't plan too!


----------



## lawnprolawns

I want that spreader!

elite.. I guess you were first..


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

lawnprolawns;701864 said:


> I want that spreader!
> 
> elite.. I guess you were first..


Well nobody calling! Here today maybe gone tommorrow!


----------



## Superior L & L

lawnprolawns;701819 said:


> Superior,
> 
> Did you pre-treat while everything was dry? Also, does the product evaporate or did it actually stay wet the whole time?
> 
> Glad to hear it worked!


The guys went out last night about midnight after retail/restaurants closed and sprayed the lots and put ice melt on walks. It was dry parking lots when it was applyed. If the result continue as they have been we will probably get a couple of hundred gallon sprayer for the walk crews.


----------



## gary42095

i did not read every post on here to see if anyone mentioned... 1000 gal you will also need tanker endorsement on license? fairly certain 999 is limit without... even if its not full...


----------



## Superior L & L

Is that a state thing or a federal item. I also wondered if we needed one of them tags on the side of the truck identifiing what we are hauling


----------



## lawnprolawns

Someone on on here said that you dont need anything for hauling/spraying cal, but I'm not sure about the 1000 gallons things. That could still apply.


----------



## flykelley

Superior L & L;702137 said:


> Is that a state thing or a federal item. I also wondered if we needed one of them tags on the side of the truck identifiing what we are hauling


Hey Paul
When one of your guys get stopped by one of the many weighmasters up your way, please let us know what he says. If I can track down my cop friend I will ask him, since he is a weighmaster.

Regards Mike


----------



## Runner

Yeah,...contact DR Lawn on Lawnsite (he gets on here once in awhile, too). He is a weighmaster (and great guy) for the Kent Co. Sheriffs Dept. and essentially knows everything about everything there is to know about weight restrictions, permits, endorsements, and licenses, etc.. I'm not saying that sarcastically, I mean that literally. lol

Ok,...I just PM'd him with a link to this thread. He was doing some plowing, too...I wonder how THAT is panning out for him?


----------



## Superior L & L

Good thinking i will check over at lawn site. Like flykelly said if i dont find out on here within a couple of days im sure i will find out driving down the road when we get stopped. (notice its a when not if)


----------



## Runner

lawnprolawns;702158 said:


> Someone on on here said that you dont need anything for hauling/spraying cal, but I'm not sure about the 1000 gallons things. That could still apply.


I'm not sure if you were referring to my post in another thread that stated we only needed to be licensed if we are spraying and/or applying pesticides or not, but I was just stating for the spraying aspect of it...not the hauling. That, I don't know about.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

gary42095;702071 said:


> i did not read every post on here to see if anyone mentioned... 1000 gal you will also need tanker endorsement on license? fairly certain 999 is limit without... even if its not full...


From a MI State Motor Carrier officer back in November. He stated that if the truck does not require a CDL--meaning the truck is under 26,001 GVW--you don't need a tanker endorsement. Because, you can't get an endorsement without having a CDL, it would be like trying to get an air brake endorsement on an normal operator's license, and it can't be done.



Superior L & L;702137 said:


> Is that a state thing or a federal item. I also wondered if we needed one of them tags on the side of the truck identifiing what we are hauling


I wouldn't think so, unless it was considered a HazMat. TruGreen, etc don't have placards, and even then, you would only need a placard stating it's number so it can be looked up by First Responders for its hazards, not an actual ID of the product. You don't see fuel tankers with "Diesel" or "Regular Unleaded" on the side.


----------



## Superior L & L

Mark Oomkes;702708 said:


> I wouldn't think so, unless it was considered a HazMat. TruGreen, etc don't have placards, and even then, you would only need a placard stating it's number so it can be looked up by First Responders for its hazards, not an actual ID of the product. You don't see fuel tankers with "Diesel" or "Regular Unleaded" on the side.


Lets hope no one from the state of michigan is on here. We just gave them an idea for more taxes. Im sure once more people start to use liquid they will state some kind of deal were you have to pay for hazmat placard's


----------



## flykelley

Hi Guys
I have started to build my frame work for the deicer. Ran out of argon so it will have to wait till morning. Pump and the rst of the parts are suppose to be on friday.

Regards Mike


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

flykelley;704746 said:


> Hi Guys
> I have started to build my frame work for the deicer. Ran out of argon so it will have to wait till morning. Pump and the rst of the parts are suppose to be on friday.
> 
> Regards Mike


Go for it Mike, hope the pics you took of mine help!


----------



## Superior L & L

Daaaaaaaaaaam Mike, You my friend are doing it RIGHT. That thing will look ****


----------



## flykelley

Hi Paul
Should have the welding done today, then I just need to wait for my parts to come in later this week. I can't wait to stop paying $140 a ton for salt.

Regards Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

We have too many accounts to deice with one truck so we are still using a few yards of salt per night. The two places we have been getting it from are out so i had to pay *$175.00 per yd* today :crying::crying:


----------



## flykelley

Superior L & L;705626 said:


> We have too many accounts to deice with one truck so we are still using a few yards of salt per night. The two places we have been getting it from are out so i had to pay *$175.00 per yd* today :crying::crying:


Damn Paul I thought we were paying too much. You need to build some deice units. You have enough trucks.

Good Luck Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

flykelley;705876 said:


> Damn Paul I thought we were paying too much. You need to build some deice units. You have enough trucks.
> 
> Good Luck Mike


I know. One morning im probably going to wake up and say "what the f*ck. and build a couple of 275 gallon units with trash pumps.


----------



## Superior L & L

Just took delivery of our second 5000 gallons of liquid. We are using about 1500 per event. After plowing yesterday i had a guy in the spray truck and the lots were total water within 15 mins of applying. 

Ordered the stuff at Noon yesterday and it was being loaded into the tanks at 9:00am today ! (try and do that with salt this week)

Mike, im sure the snow today and tonight is a pita on the sprayer build. Lets see some pics soon


----------



## flykelley

Superior L & L;708742 said:


> Just took delivery of our second 5000 gallons of liquid. We are using about 1500 per event. After plowing yesterday i had a guy in the spray truck and the lots were total water within 15 mins of applying.
> 
> Ordered the stuff at Noon yesterday and it was being loaded into the tanks at 9:00am today ! (try and do that with salt this week)
> 
> Mike, im sure the snow today and tonight is a pita on the sprayer build. Lets see some pics soon


Hi Paul
Yea the snow does slow me down building the unit. Here is some pictures of the frame, it done need to paint this weekend. Picked up the pump today drilled the mounting holes on the frame, also drilled hole for the oil drain(Thanks Big Mike, good idea). Picked up a battery and battery tray also. Will be picking up the tank and the rest of the stuff on monday.

Regards


----------



## flykelley

Here is one more picture

Thanks Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

Man i cannot wait for the finished product. That thing will be bullet proof



Looks Great


----------



## ff610

Mark Oomkes;691726 said:


> Do you make your own salt?
> 
> How about fertilizer?
> 
> Personally, I am in the business of applying chemicals--pesticides\fert and de-icing--not manufacturing them. I am providing my customers with a service, not a product I made, sort of gets away from what our industry is. But that's just me.
> 
> Besides, if salt is already sky high in price and availability is limited, how is one going to make their own salt brine at an economical cost? Sort of defeating the whole purpose of the exercise.



In the midwest here, it costs about .09 cents a gallon to make brine. It takes only a hydrometer to make the solution the right mixture, and tanks to store it in. WHy would you want to put all the additional money in the pocket of someone else to mix it for you if its so simple. I guess if your not to lazy you can find all kinds of ways to save your customer money, make yourself a little, and everyone wins! 
P.S. Try a positive cmment for a change! LOL


----------



## Superior L & L

ff610;710079 said:


> In the midwest here, it costs about .09 cents a gallon to make brine. It takes only a hydrometer to make the solution the right mixture, and tanks to store it in. WHy would you want to put all the additional money in the pocket of someone else to mix it for you if its so simple. I guess if your not to lazy you can find all kinds of ways to save your customer money, make yourself a little, and everyone wins!
> P.S. Try a positive cmment for a change! LOL


Why would you buy fruit from the store when you can grow it?
Why would you buy bread from the store when you can bake it ?
Why would you buy salt from the mine when you could dig a DEEP hole and find it for free?

Time is money! I would rather spend time with the family than deal with it

Oh and nice comment about being positive from a guy with 4 posts


----------



## Mark Oomkes

ff610;710079 said:


> In the midwest here, it costs about .09 cents a gallon to make brine. It takes only a hydrometer to make the solution the right mixture, and tanks to store it in. WHy would you want to put all the additional money in the pocket of someone else to mix it for you if its so simple. I guess if your not to lazy you can find all kinds of ways to save your customer money, make yourself a little, and everyone wins!
> P.S. Try a positive cmment for a change! LOL


Cool, but if you can't get salt or only get limited amounts, how are you going to make brine?

Didn't answer that question.


----------



## Superior L & L

Mark, he can get salt. He will just dig a DEEP hole and mine it himself. Why would you buy salt when you can dig for it


----------



## ff610

Mark,

I really don't think the number of threads I respond to makes a difference. I have read hundreds of threads, and been extremely impressed with great threads, includin this one. I too spend plenty of time with my family, and don't run a one man show. I hire dependable employees so I can enjoy my business. Why would I wanna have to dig my own salt mine by myself... Seriously, as I said I thought this was a great thread too, it just seems like you would rather be negative to other peoples ideas and thoughts. There's many great ideas here, and no single answer is always right. As for salt guys, I have plenty, and prepare properly for my business, but running an effecient business means calculating time and expense ratio's too. Making brine is too easy, and takes little time.


----------



## flykelley

ff610;710164 said:


> Mark,
> 
> I really don't think the number of threads I respond to makes a difference. I have read hundreds of threads, and been extremely impressed with great threads, includin this one. I too spend plenty of time with my family, and don't run a one man show. I hire dependable employees so I can enjoy my business. Why would I wanna have to dig my own salt mine by myself... Seriously, as I said I thought this was a great thread too, it just seems like you would rather be negative to other peoples ideas and thoughts. There's many great ideas here, and no single answer is always right. As for salt guys, I have plenty, and prepare properly for my business, but running an effecient business means calculating time and expense ratio's too. Making brine is too easy, and takes little time.


Ff here in Michigan salt is running about $120 a ton if you can get it. My local supplier is just about out of rock salt. He only had 50 tons left as of 7am this morning. Plenty of brine out ther for sale, hence the reason I am building my own unit.

Regards Mike


----------



## ff610

Yeah, for whatever reason, there isn't much brine for sale locally here, so you have to pay to ship it on top of all of it. I think building is the answer too.


----------



## Cooperthumb

Your pump system how are you measuring the application? gpm or per sq ft or per 1,000 sq ft?
Also the liquid calcium is this a pre-treatment only or an application being put down during an event?


----------



## lawnprolawns

Hey Paul, now that you have put down a few thousand gallons throughout a couple of events, are cost savings as good as some claim?


----------



## Superior L & L

lawnprolawns;712144 said:


> Hey Paul, now that you have put down a few thousand gallons throughout a couple of events, are cost savings as good as some claim?


For sure. We have been applying at 50-100 gallons per acre. Depending on if its after plowing or to melt a half inch. On the heavy side its costing about $50 to treat what a ton of salt would do. There are some additonal labor cost because it takes longer to apply than salt. Its adding about two hours to the route.


----------



## flykelley

Hi Guys
Well my tank and other parts are here. Couple of pictures of the tank. It is 325 gallons with a big mouth on top, 16 inchs i belive.

Enjoy Mike


----------



## lawnprolawns

Mike, looks cool. 

I have good news: liquid works! (duh..)

I used it in one smaller parking lot and on intersections in the sub we plow, both with great results. Even with the really cold temps here in SE michigan, it still did its job. Other subdivisions in the area that used salt look like poop compared to ours, and they salt everything, we only do the intersections, so the stuff gets spread pretty far and thin. 

We normally use one ton of bagged salt, costing about 160 or so. We used 160 gallons of liquid, @ $0.45/gallon, so we were at less than half the cost, with seemingly better results than salt that others used today. Plus, this is much easier! No lifting, salt all over, etc etc etc. Just fill 'er up and spray!

Now I need to figure out what to do with all the salt I dont want to use.


----------



## flykelley

lawnprolawns;714473 said:


> Mike, looks cool.
> 
> I have good news: liquid works! (duh..)
> 
> I used it in one smaller parking lot and on intersections in the sub we plow, both with great results. Even with the really cold temps here in SE michigan, it still did its job. Other subdivisions in the area that used salt look like poop compared to ours, and they salt everything, we only do the intersections, so the stuff gets spread pretty far and thin.
> 
> We normally use one ton of bagged salt, costing about 160 or so. We used 160 gallons of liquid, @ $0.45/gallon, so we were at less than half the cost, with seemingly better results than salt that others used today. Plus, this is much easier! No lifting, salt all over, etc etc etc. Just fill 'er up and spray!
> 
> Now I need to figure out what to do with all the salt I dont want to use.


Hi Lawnpro
Getting rid of salt should be no problem, lots of guys looking for salt.payuppayup

Regards Mike


----------



## T-Trim

Nice pic's of your sprayer. I just have one question. The part you are putting the tank on, what is supporting the tank on the frame? I hope your not relying on the outer part of your frame to hold the tank plus all of you liquid too. Just at the angle that you took the picture looks like it might fall right thought. I hope I'm wrong. Still a nice looking piece you got.


----------



## flykelley

T-Trim;714497 said:


> Nice pic's of your sprayer. I just have one question. The part you are putting the tank on, what is supporting the tank on the frame? I hope your not relying on the outer part of your frame to hold the tank plus all of you liquid too. Just at the angle that you took the picture looks like it might fall right thought. I hope I'm wrong. Still a nice looking piece you got.


 Hi T Trim
What you can't see in the picture is 2x2 tube right under where the straps are. If that isn't enough I will remove the tank and but 1/8 plate over that whole area. I would think 2x2 tube would be enough to support the tank.

Regards Mike


----------



## progressivelawn

where can i get a salt spreader like that ...im makeing a deicer for my ranger


----------



## T-Trim

It almost looks like the tank could just fit inside the frame work. Look at it like this 325 time 8 is 2600 lbs of liquid just sitting there. You have any pic's of the spray bar?


----------



## flykelley

T-Trim;715044 said:


> It almost looks like the tank could just fit inside the frame work. Look at it like this 325 time 8 is 2600 lbs of liquid just sitting there. You have any pic's of the spray bar?


Hi T Trim
I have not built the spray bar yet, most likely this weekend.

Regards Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

Mike,
looks like you timed it just right with all the salt shortage. 
Hopefully we will see some finished pics this weekend


----------



## flykelley

Superior L & L;716024 said:


> Mike,
> looks like you timed it just right with all the salt shortage.
> Hopefully we will see some finished pics this weekend


Hi Paul
That is what Im shooting for, this weekend. Not a minute too soon either with this salt shortage.

Regards Mike


----------



## saynow

Superior, I have some questions for you. You seem to be fully on top of this liquid stuff, so I'm hoping you will have some good advice for me. I decided to go all liqiud this year. I have a 200 gal. Lesco space saver that I put a "Banjo" pump on with a spray bar that is 12 foot wide with 7 teejet 1/4 ttj15vp nozzles that are 20" above pavement. I am spraying at 60 gpa. My problem is that after I plow everything off, when I spray the lots down, I don't get everything down to pavement. I drive at 6-10 mph. It works well when the plow scrapes to pavement, but the areas that are 1/4 to 1/2 covered the stuff doesn't cut through it. I'm spraying 32% cal. chl. that I get from a ready mix plant. When I use my hose reel with an adjustable brass nozzle for sidewalks and steps it works GREAT! Could you explain exactly what you are doing to acheive "wet pavement". I put all of my eggs in this basket so I really need it to work. Thanks!


----------



## flykelley

saynow;718178 said:


> Superior, I have some questions for you. You seem to be fully on top of this liquid stuff, so I'm hoping you will have some good advice for me. I decided to go all liqiud this year. I have a 200 gal. Lesco space saver that I put a "Banjo" pump on with a spray bar that is 12 foot wide with 7 teejet 1/4 ttj15vp nozzles that are 20" above pavement. I am spraying at 60 gpa. My problem is that after I plow everything off, when I spray the lots down, I don't get everything down to pavement. I drive at 6-10 mph. It works well when the plow scrapes to pavement, but the areas that are 1/4 to 1/2 covered the stuff doesn't cut through it. I'm spraying 32% cal. chl. that I get from a ready mix plant. When I use my hose reel with an adjustable brass nozzle for sidewalks and steps it works GREAT! Could you explain exactly what you are doing to acheive "wet pavement". I put all of my eggs in this basket so I really need it to work. Thanks!


Hi Saynow
I think your bar is too high off the pavement try around 12 inchs.

Good Luck Mike


----------



## saynow

I'll try that. What about the nozzles, I'm wondering if they're giving me enough coverage and amount.


----------



## flykelley

saynow;718198 said:


> I'll try that. What about the nozzles, I'm wondering if they're giving me enough coverage and amount.


Hi SayNow
Send Superior a Pm and ask if you can call him. His name is Paul and he should be able to tell you what nozzles will work.

Good Luck Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

WOW thanks for your confidence in me. I dont know a whole lot other than my own results. Everything else ive learned from asking questions. 

Ive found that 60 gallons per acre worked great after plow clean up just to take the glaze off lots but have been using 100 per acre to melt off 1/2" of snow, so you may not be using enough product. Im not sure what that nozzel is but we have stayed with stream tip nozzels. When applyed it needs some traffic to get the lot clean totally but does work real well. We used a fan tip nozzel on 1/2" snow but the product was not getting down to the pavement and since it works from the ground up, our results were no good. I know of people that use fan tip that have worked for them so i assume they are rated for more gpm.


----------



## lawnprolawns

So it's really important that it hit the pavement in order for it to work? Is that mainly for a bit of snow, or also for after plowing?


----------



## Superior L & L

After plowing im sure fan tips will work great because they dont have to cut though any snow but we just leave the stream tips on so we dont have to deal with changing them out.


----------



## flykelley

Hey Paul
Just got the rest of my parts, should have the deicer done this weekend.

Regards Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

Mike, where are the pics??????

Just because we got 7" of snow yesterday it doesn't mean you can stop building that thing


----------



## flykelley

Superior L & L;721017 said:


> Mike, where are the pics??????
> 
> Just because we got 7" of snow yesterday it doesn't mean you can stop building that thing


Thats funny Paul.
Just have to wire it up and paint the Spray boom. I was going to work on it today but decided a nap was a better idea. Will post some pictures either later tonight or sometime monday.:salute:

Regards Mike


----------



## GrandScapes

Hey Paul,

Can you send me some info on the liquid setup? Where to buy parts, etc. We are going to outfit a couple of our rigs and see what we can do. I think we are done chasing rock salt. Thanks bud!

Sam


----------



## flykelley

Ok Guys
Its in the truck, just have to wait for the paint on the boom to dry and it will be ready. Enjoy the pictures.

Regards Mike


----------



## Dailylc

Nice work! Wish I was that talented

James.


----------



## TheXpress2002

Looks awesome bud. How big is that tank?


----------



## flykelley

TheXpress2002;722490 said:


> Looks awesome bud. How big is that tank?


Hi Xpress
Its a 300 gallon tank. The challenge in building this unit is it's going in a short bed truck with a dump insert. Very tight area to have alot of part all share the small space.

Regards Mike


----------



## flykelley

Dailylc;722475 said:


> Nice work! Wish I was that talented
> 
> James.


Hi James
I asked alot of questions from some of the guys here on this site. A special thanks to Paul at Superior In Fenton, Travis at Your Way Property Services in Milford and Big Mike from Bike Mikes in White Lake. They all had good ideas and I learned a little something from all of them. It is really just a basic assembly project once I learned what to buy and where to buy it from.

Regards Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

GrandScapes;722399 said:


> Hey Paul,
> Can you send me some info on the liquid setup? Where to buy parts, etc. We are going to outfit a couple of our rigs and see what we can do. I think we are done chasing rock salt. Thanks bud!
> Sam


 Your right chasing salt has got to be a pain, while liquid is not the total replacment of salt its doing a great job of filling the need since we have non or i dont want to pay $200 a ton. I sent some info to your email




flykelley;722535 said:


> . It is really just a basic assembly project once I learned what to buy and where to buy it from.
> 
> Regards Mike


Thats so true, the timely part is rounding everything up, then its just glue, screw and clamp. Since we dont have a fancy skid on ours we only probably had 8-10 hours into it.

Mike your project looks great !!!! almost like you bought the thing! Watch, now we will not get snow for a week

Time for the downester spreader to hit Ebay !!


----------



## T-Trim

FlyKelly 

Slick. Nice I hope you like liquids as much as most of us do. 
Jammin


----------



## flykelley

Hi Guys
Well I got to try the sprayer today in my driveway. I had about 1/2 to 3/4 inch of hard pack. I hit it with the well brine and it is melting off. I have not seen pavement for at least 3 weeks. I need to do some adjustments to pressure and figure out whick nozzle I like best. The side sprayers rock, man they pour out the liquid. Here is a picture of my boom.

Regards Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

Man that looks great !!!!!!! 
how wide does it spray with the side sprayers and do you have the ability to turn the side sprayers off. 

Oh and what sort of nozzels are on the side sprayers

:salute:


----------



## lawnprolawns

That's one heavy duty looking rig! Nice.


----------



## saynow

Mike,
Great idea building that spray bar as beefy as you did. That is one thing that mine is lacking as I have been replacing nozzles like nobody's business. Looks good. What pressure and ground speed are you at? What type nozzles are you running?


----------



## flykelley

Superior L & L;723649 said:


> Man that looks great !!!!!!!
> how wide does it spray with the side sprayers and do you have the ability to turn the side sprayers off.
> 
> Oh and what sort of nozzels are on the side sprayers
> 
> :salute:


 Hi Paul
Yes the bar is set up in three zones. Each end is one zone and then the length of the bar is the other zone. Not sure what nozzle is on the ends but it throws out some liquid, I will take better pictures in the am. Been a long couple of days and Im beat tonight but I do have a few things to still do. I have to get the back up camera mounted and still have to hard wire the electric start on the honda. Also want to play with all three sets if tips. I have one set of flood jets and two sets of a fan tip. Need to see what they all do and which one will be the main set.

Regards Mike


----------



## T-Trim

Man what a thread 12 pages later. I sure learned sometime new.


----------



## brimfield

Ok here goes. I am really into the idea of liquid calcium. I've read all the great info in this post and thanks too all with the pics teejet sizes and the application rates. My idea is to pre try this on a small scale before I build one. So if an acre is 43,560 sq ft and if I devide this by the largest application rate I've seen (150 gal per acre) I came up with 25 gallons to do my drive 8' by 900' or 1gallon per 36 feet.So as a trial I mixed up 5pounds of calcium cloride to one gallon of water. This I figure is close to the 4.5 lb to .8 gallon of water I've seen in other posts. The solution got warm I sprayed it using a hand sprayer lines 3" apart right to the driveway and all I got was the original lines and no other melting. Yes I am using 100* calcium cloride not a mix. Is my math off, or what else is wrong


----------



## flykelley

Ok Guys
Here are some pictures of the spray boom in action.

Regards Mike


----------



## flykelley

Here is a close up of the outer tips.

Regards Mike


----------



## elite1msmith

brimfield;726426 said:


> Ok here goes. I am really into the idea of liquid calcium. I've read all the great info in this post and thanks too all with the pics teejet sizes and the application rates. My idea is to pre try this on a small scale before I build one. So if an acre is 43,560 sq ft and if I devide this by the largest application rate I've seen (150 gal per acre) I came up with 25 gallons to do my drive 8' by 900' or 1gallon per 36 feet.So as a trial I mixed up 5pounds of calcium cloride to one gallon of water. This I figure is close to the 4.5 lb to .8 gallon of water I've seen in other posts. The solution got warm I sprayed it using a hand sprayer lines 3" apart right to the driveway and all I got was the original lines and no other melting. Yes I am using 100* calcium cloride not a mix. Is my math off, or what else is wrong


what kinda snow , wet dry/fluffy? temps? , how much were you tring to melt?


----------



## elite1msmith

flykelly, how wide of a pattern do you get on your rig?


----------



## Superior L & L

Nice!! where did you buy the side spray tips if you dont mind me asking?


----------



## flykelley

Superior L & L;727734 said:


> Nice!! where did you buy the side spray tips if you dont mind me asking?


Hi Paul
They came from the place on I69 & M52,Fertilzer Dealer Supply. 1 800 565 4716 Im not sure of the part number but I do know they are a TeeJet nozzle. On the end it says XP40L. I might be going there monday for a new hose reel so if you want I can pick you up a set of the nozzles.

Regards Mike


----------



## flykelley

elite1msmith;727733 said:


> flykelly, how wide of a pattern do you get on your rig?


Without a tape measure I would guess 12-14 ft.

Regards Mike


----------



## brimfield

Thanks for asking elite1msmith Ive got about an inch or less of hard pack snow. yesterday was 30 today was around 40. Is this too much snow to melt off? I also found out that I was mixing calcium chloride way too strong and riasing the melt temp. check out this post I found here
PaulChristenson 
Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Vermont
Posts: 25

I think your concentration is too high for the temperature your working in...

Your freezing point lowers as you increase your % of CaCl2 until you reach 29.5% after that the freezing point start to RISE!!!

The lowest freezing temperature of -60F is achieved at 29.6% CaCl2

at 34% concentration your freezing point has risen to +10F
at 45% concentration your freezing point has risen to +78F

Check the table on page 8 of the following document...

http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiteratu...romPage=GetDoc

flykelly your rig looks great. about what did it cost you?


----------



## elite1msmith

brimfield;728084 said:


> Thanks for asking elite1msmith Ive got about an inch or less of hard pack snow. yesterday was 30 today was around 40. Is this too much snow to melt off? I also found out that I was mixing calcium chloride way too strong and riasing the melt temp. check out this post I found here
> PaulChristenson
> Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008
> Location: Vermont
> Posts: 25
> 
> I think your concentration is too high for the temperature your working in...
> 
> Your freezing point lowers as you increase your % of CaCl2 until you reach 29.5% after that the freezing point start to RISE!!!
> 
> The lowest freezing temperature of -60F is achieved at 29.6% CaCl2
> 
> at 34% concentration your freezing point has risen to +10F
> at 45% concentration your freezing point has risen to +78F
> 
> Check the table on page 8 of the following document...
> 
> http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiteratu...romPage=GetDoc
> 
> flykelly your rig looks great. about what did it cost you?


somebody else with more experiance should comment rather than me

but from what im told , a few things here

first as a liquid form , it is ment to be applied prior to any snow fall. liquid works form the bottom up , and helps in preventing hard pack... it will not melt thru it

#2 , from what im told 1 inch , depending on temps and mostior conent of the snow, might be the max that you really could expect to melt

#3 , if your spraying in streams ....you need traffic, to help work the chemical around. The steam sprays are used to allow application rates at faster speeds to avoid drifting. it might also help "start" the melting process quicker due to the consentration

#4 ... your correct about your mixture... the percentage has to be exact

#5. from the info that i gather around here, and else were... the most effectiveness that this product has, would be dry fluffy snow.... low temps... spraying before a snow fall.... spraying after plowing to prevent genral icing conditions

hard pack, wet snow, higher temps? or trying to melt away more than 3/4 an inch, it seems to be more effective with just regular rock salt

not that you couldnt do it... just might have better luck


----------



## QKSnowRemoval

Dude, wow your rig is nice and damn does it put out the liquid, what kinda tips u got fan or not and how do they connect the ones we cant see


----------



## flykelley

brimfield;728084 said:


> Thanks for asking elite1msmith Ive got about an inch or less of hard pack snow. yesterday was 30 today was around 40. Is this too much snow to melt off? I also found out that I was mixing calcium chloride way too strong and riasing the melt temp. check out this post I found here
> PaulChristenson
> Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2008
> Location: Vermont
> Posts: 25
> 
> I think your concentration is too high for the temperature your working in...
> 
> Your freezing point lowers as you increase your % of CaCl2 until you reach 29.5% after that the freezing point start to RISE!!!
> 
> The lowest freezing temperature of -60F is achieved at 29.6% CaCl2
> 
> at 34% concentration your freezing point has risen to +10F
> at 45% concentration your freezing point has risen to +78F
> 
> Check the table on page 8 of the following document...
> 
> http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiteratu...romPage=GetDoc
> 
> flykelly your rig looks great. about what did it cost you?


When it is all said and done I would say around 4500. I have not yet added up all of the cost. I could not find a unit for a short box truck.

Regards Mike


----------



## flykelley

QKSnowRemoval;728112 said:


> Dude, wow your rig is nice and damn does it put out the liquid, what kinda tips u got fan or not and how do they connect the ones we cant see


Hi QK
I have a three headed tip set up, meaning that each head has three tips, you just turn the head for the tip you need. Right now I have two fan tips and one 3 hole stream tip.

Regards Mike


----------



## flykelley

elite1msmith;728105 said:


> somebody else with more experiance should comment rather than me
> 
> but from what im told , a few things here
> 
> first as a liquid form , it is ment to be applied prior to any snow fall. liquid works form the bottom up , and helps in preventing hard pack... it will not melt thru it
> 
> #2 , from what im told 1 inch , depending on temps and mostior conent of the snow, might be the max that you really could expect to melt
> 
> #3 , if your spraying in streams ....you need traffic, to help work the chemical around. The steam sprays are used to allow application rates at faster speeds to avoid drifting. it might also help "start" the melting process quicker due to the consentration
> 
> #4 ... your correct about your mixture... the percentage has to be exact
> 
> #5. from the info that i gather around here, and else were... the most effectiveness that this product has, would be dry fluffy snow.... low temps... spraying before a snow fall.... spraying after plowing to prevent genral icing conditions
> 
> hard pack, wet snow, higher temps? or trying to melt away more than 3/4 an inch, it seems to be more effective with just regular rock salt
> 
> not that you couldnt do it... just might have better luck


Hi Guys
You can melt hard pack, have done it twice in the last couple of days. I would say it was around 1/2 of hard pack. The temps were in the high 20s low 30s. You need plenty of liquid and pressure. What happens is it turns the hard pack into a wet slush or slop. It will not burn it off all the way like rock salt.

Regards Mike


----------



## QKSnowRemoval

o yeah ic thats cool so u get the right one for the job, nice!!


----------



## TheXpress2002

So hopefully I don't take any heat for this but I thought this would be extremely useful to someone building. This is general knowledge on the site so nothing illegal. Complete part list.....

https://www.wyliesprayers.com/prodDocs/Parts_Manual57.pdf


----------



## flykelley

TheXpress2002;728288 said:


> So hopefully I don't take any heat for this but I thought this would be extremely useful to someone building. This is general knowledge on the site so nothing illegal. Complete part list.....
> 
> https://www.wyliesprayers.com/prodDocs/Parts_Manual57.pdf


Hey Xpress
That is a great source of info, wish I had seen it a week ago.

Regards Mike


----------



## flykelley

Hi Guys
Got to use my new deicer in real world situation this am. Had about 1/4 inch of light dry snow, so I loaded up and went out. I was driving at 5 mph running 80 psi. I had the psi too high for this light snow , so I used way more liquid then I need too. I deiced a small strip mall with about 60 parking spaces and a driveway behind the building and 600 ft of sidewalk. I also deiced a sub division rd a mile long, and a church parking lot which is around a acre. Also spot treated a doctors office and about 100 ft of sidewalk there. I used 400 gallons of deicer. I love my hose reel set up, used that to spot treat some ice build up at the church in low spots. I have not been able to salt for over a week so the low areas had water sitting in them and they froze. After spraying the church lot at 50 psi I hand sprayed all the frozen low spots. This unit is working great not a thing I would change on it. I tried several tips this am, a fan tip that is a more open than most fans and a three hole stream tip. The three hole stream tip left three lines which will be great for a wet snow, a dry snow like today the fan tip seems to work better.

Regards Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

TheXpress2002;728288 said:


> So hopefully I don't take any heat for this but I thought this would be extremely useful to someone building. This is general knowledge on the site so nothing illegal. Complete part list.....
> 
> https://www.wyliesprayers.com/prodDocs/Parts_Manual57.pdf


That is a fancy set up. It would run some $$$$$ to build that one


----------



## elite1msmith

flyk... seems like your pressure is kinda high. Recomendations that i had were to keep it low, around 20-25 psi to reduce drifting...especially with those fan tips


----------



## Superior L & L

We run 30-40 psi


----------



## flykelley

elite1msmith;729136 said:


> flyk... seems like your pressure is kinda high. Recomendations that i had were to keep it low, around 20-25 psi to reduce drifting...especially with those fan tips


 Yes you are right, the pressure was too high, first real world run with it. About half way through the route I lowered the pressure. Not sure I can get my pressure as low as 20-25 PSI.

Regards Mike


----------



## Superior L & L

flykelley;729179 said:


> Yes you are right, the pressure was too high, first real world run with it. About half way through the route I lowered the pressure. Not sure I can get my pressure as low as 20-25 PSI.
> 
> Regards Mike


If i set ours at 20-25 it bearly comes out. 30-40 works real good for us!


----------



## elite1msmith

flykelley;729179 said:


> Yes you are right, the pressure was too high, first real world run with it. About half way through the route I lowered the pressure. Not sure I can get my pressure as low as 20-25 PSI.
> 
> Regards Mike


if you do math on your nozzel and deisred average flow rate, you should be able to get any pressure you want. Just higher ppressure = more drift, =less product on the pavement,=more in the air= more on your truck

all you need to do is the correct math. also i didnt look to closly at your set up, but your main hose going to your spray bar , might be more restrictive than your nozzels

if you system is set up correctly , you nozzels should dictate yoru flow rates, and you should be able to set any pressure you want.... if not , you got too big a pump

one side note , if your nozzel body has a dyphram , to prevent post shut down drips, they dont spray consistant with less than 20 psi ... or at least that what i found


----------



## elite1msmith

SO... im wondering , hows all the New liquid users doing so fare? good , bad?


----------



## Superior L & L

elite1msmith;734539 said:


> if you system is set up correctly , you nozzels should dictate yoru flow rates, and you should be able to set any pressure you want.... if not , you got too big a pump
> 
> one side note , if your nozzel body has a dyphram , to prevent post shut down drips, they dont spray consistant with less than 20 psi ... or at least that what i found


Why does pump size matter? the rest of the product just gets dumped back int the tank. Better to run a larger pump at half speed than a smaller one balls to the wall


----------



## elite1msmith

Superior L & L;734803 said:


> Why does pump size matter? the rest of the product just gets dumped back int the tank. Better to run a larger pump at half speed than a smaller one balls to the wall


i guess i worded that wrong

your pump could be too big for the for yoru by pass valve or hoses,, thus creating a back pressure. why is it he can get his pressure down?


----------



## flykelley

elite1msmith;734539 said:


> if you do math on your nozzel and deisred average flow rate, you should be able to get any pressure you want. Just higher ppressure = more drift, =less product on the pavement,=more in the air= more on your truck
> 
> all you need to do is the correct math. also i didnt look to closly at your set up, but your main hose going to your spray bar , might be more restrictive than your nozzels
> 
> if you system is set up correctly , you nozzels should dictate yoru flow rates, and you should be able to set any pressure you want.... if not , you got too big a pump
> 
> one side note , if your nozzel body has a dyphram , to prevent post shut down drips, they dont spray consistant with less than 20 psi ... or at least that what i found


Elite
I have 3 hose 3/4 inch in size going to my spray bar. Why would that be more restrictive than my nozzles? Superior is correct I run the motor at 1/2 throttle most of time. The only way I have been able to get the pressure down below 50PSI is to idle the motor down, may well be too big a pump but as Superior said I would rather have it run at 1/2 throttle than balls to the wall.

Regards Mike

Regards Mike


----------



## elite1msmith

flykelley;735274 said:


> Elite
> I have 3 hose 3/4 inch in size going to my spray bar. Why would that be more restrictive than my nozzles? Superior is correct I run the motor at 1/2 throttle most of time. The only way I have been able to get the pressure down below 50PSI is to idle the motor down, may well be too big a pump but as Superior said I would rather have it run at 1/2 throttle than balls to the wall.
> 
> Regards Mike
> 
> Regards Mike


your right , it is better to have the bigger pump at half then a smaller one balls out, id agree with that statement 100%

If idleing the motor helps that great, But if your still cant get the pressure to 30 psi , then something is causing it. hey if yoru 50 psi , works well for you then by all means use it. and dont take this advice. But anyone that knows a little abotu spraying , even weed killer, could tell you high PSI leads to drifting. take that as you might

Also you nozzels are desinged to work best under certain pressures... especially flood jet nozzels. Read what the manufacture recommends.

superior is right about the bypass. do you have it even open? if not thats the first problem. 3/4 inch hose... well it could be more restrictive than you nozzel....it jsut depends on the size of your nozzel. Do the math. if you have 6 nozzels, and the orifce opening on them each is .125 then x 6 nozzels = would be .75 or 3/4 .... your hose size and anyother smaller restriction like a valve, needs to be larger than the total sum of your nozzels, in this case 3/4.... on top of that the hose adds resitrctions by turns, and fiction

so a well designed and thought out system would keep this all in mind

Back to my point, I wouldnt want to run balls out on the pump... but 75% should be just fine. If your running your motor lower than that, your pump must be pretty decent sized. some motors dont have proper oil pressure at low RPM to effectivly provide lubrication if the motor is under a working load. From a business stand point, you wasted money. It like the kid that buys the really big stero..that will blow out the windows on his car... why buy it, he will never turn the vol. up 100%

jsut becasue someone told you buy the "red" nozzle with this desired flow. doesnt mean 100% that it is correct for your application, again you need to do the math

We could all just go and apply at will. and skip all the steps, but id rather know exactly how much is coming out and how much it costs me.... would you spray a lawn with out knowing eactly how many GPM , and GPA are coiming out...? or just use the 1/1000 rule and cross your fingers you dont burn the guys lawn

a little math would save you money, might even allow you to apply at a faster speed...and save time


----------



## flykelley

elite1msmith;735942 said:


> your right , it is better to have the bigger pump at half then a smaller one balls out, id agree with that statement 100%
> 
> If idleing the motor helps that great, But if your still cant get the pressure to 30 psi , then something is causing it. hey if yoru 50 psi , works well for you then by all means use it. and dont take this advice. But anyone that knows a little abotu spraying , even weed killer, could tell you high PSI leads to drifting. take that as you might
> 
> Also you nozzels are desinged to work best under certain pressures... especially flood jet nozzels. Read what the manufacture recommends.
> 
> superior is right about the bypass. do you have it even open? if not thats the first problem. 3/4 inch hose... well it could be more restrictive than you nozzel....it jsut depends on the size of your nozzel. Do the math. if you have 6 nozzels, and the orifce opening on them each is .125 then x 6 nozzels = would be .75 or 3/4 .... your hose size and anyother smaller restriction like a valve, needs to be larger than the total sum of your nozzels, in this case 3/4.... on top of that the hose adds resitrctions by turns, and fiction
> 
> so a well designed and thought out system would keep this all in mind
> 
> Back to my point, I wouldnt want to run balls out on the pump... but 75% should be just fine. If your running your motor lower than that, your pump must be pretty decent sized. some motors dont have proper oil pressure at low RPM to effectivly provide lubrication if the motor is under a working load. From a business stand point, you wasted money. It like the kid that buys the really big stero..that will blow out the windows on his car... why buy it, he will never turn the vol. up 100%
> 
> jsut becasue someone told you buy the "red" nozzle with this desired flow. doesnt mean 100% that it is correct for your application, again you need to do the math
> 
> We could all just go and apply at will. and skip all the steps, but id rather know exactly how much is coming out and how much it costs me.... would you spray a lawn with out knowing eactly how many GPM , and GPA are coiming out...? or just use the 1/1000 rule and cross your fingers you dont burn the guys lawn
> 
> a little math would save you money, might even allow you to apply at a faster speed...and save time


Hi Elite
The problem with even doing the math is it is not going to be a sure thing. We all are really doing Beta testing on liquid deicers. What may work will in Michigan may not work for someone in Ohio. My thought is it is more trail and error. Yes I am trying several nozzles to see what one is going to get the job done with the least amount of liquid. So far I have not see a book or manual or a web site that can give you a 100 % for sure this will work if you build it like this. If there is someone out there who has most of the answers to building a deicer that will work for every condition then I have not talked to him yet. I have spent a fair amount of time taking to and looking at peoples deicers, took some ideas from all of them. I don't do lawns so I don't have to worry about burning someones lawn, but what I do is try and get as much info as I can and make a decision.

Regards Mike


----------



## elite1msmith

thats always a good thing. and area will dicate what and how much yoru spraying. But your GPA, should be similar 

when you build a sprayer custom. figure out what size is the first thing you should do. it doesnt matter too much what type of nozzel, pencil tip, fan , flood, .... they will be rated by how much GPM come out of them at what pressures. You figure out your desired GPM baased on the coverage area per nozzle, and the speed of travel and also the estimated rate per acre that should be applied. if you have a 10 foot spray width, and 5 nozzels to cover it. then each will spray 2 feet wide. then figure out how many feet it will take to cover an acre, and how long based on your desiered MPH travel speed to cover that distance, then divide the GPA by the estimated time... that will tell you how many Gallons per min, need to flow from each nozzel you have. heres the catch, the thickker your liquid the larger you need. there is a table on the net to do the converstion. water weights 8 lbs , your liquid spray is around 10.5 roughly. you need to take the calculated nozel size and multiply it but the converstion.. if i remember right its around 1.15..meaning if you needed a 1 GPM nozzel for water... you need a 1.15 GPM nozzel to acctually spray 1 GPM of your thicker liquid.

Pick a nozzel that is in the middle, or slightly lower end of its effective working range and psi... that way you can boost up the pressure to get more GPM if you need more

All your hoses and restrictions , should be larger than the sum of your nozzzel orfices.... if they dont list the size.. when you buy the nozzel , take a small drill bit set , and seee which one fits threw, will give you a close guess

take your total nozzels and mulitpy by GPM at maximum operating pressure that they recommend... that will tell you the SMALLEST pump working a 100% that you need. Again your better to have a larger one at 75% ... but anything over that is over kill, do what you wish on that

after your all done, you must test the system, and measure it out. see if it really applys per acre what u calculated it out at.. adjust the pressure a few PSI from there. till its correct. 

If your really good , and have time... make a chart, of PSI and FLOW rate... then moitor condtions after you spray.. you might start to develpoe a chart .. FOR light fluffy snow apply at =x for hard pack =Y and so on. thats realy were the money savings would be, after plowing, you might find that you need to apply only half as much.....just for example. 

I have one larger lot, now that i have some time, im gonna start messing with the stuf myself.,. I just got my tank, every thing else was built already. this lot is broken into 5 different parts, all the smae size...most the same sunlight and exposure. Im going to start applying at 30 GPA, then crank it up each one... come back 1 hour later and look at the results. 

So fare i have figured out that on LIGHT fluffy snow, with little mostior content. less than 3/4 inch, a fan tip nozzel works best , i havent figured out the flow rate yet


----------



## Superior L & L

ha elite...did you even build a sprayer. I know you asked lots of questions this year (like most of us) But i dont think you said you were building one?


----------



## elite1msmith

Superior L & L;736119 said:


> ha elite...did you even build a sprayer. I know you asked lots of questions this year (like most of us) But i dont think you said you were building one?


i built the boom , bought the pumps , bolted it all up ... i never got around to getting the tank or the liquid . I just got the tank this week. We got so hammered in Dec , im jsut now getting time .

Regaurdless, Yes i do spray lawns.. and the principles on how to properly set up a sprayer remain the same , regaurless of the type of chemical yoru spraying

the only difference is the type of pump required, PSI settings, nozzel types.

my set up is a basic pressurized system , 11 pencil tip nozzels every 10 inches apart. all bolted into a peace of 4 inch c channel , similar to fly's set up on the boom
using 3 electric pumps at 3.8 gals per min each - i tested each pump over the summer with 4 nozzels and it worked , so simple math 3 pumps, i could do as many as 12

10 mph application rate,

so if your asking how much experiance i have with De icing and liquids, its very little. But 2+2 is always 4 no matter were you are or if your spraying brine or weed killer. I have set up nomours spray type systems, not just in the green/ snow industry either

example of that pressure /hose resriction - if you have a 6 lane highway merge down to 2 lanes... for a stop light , then it goes back up to 4 lanes ...were do you think the traffic jam is going to be? at the smallest point... you need to add all you nozzels to do it correctly.

but Im not the one saying that im Idleing my pump, and cant get my pressure down to the proper PSI. If it works for you guys fine, run with it., But your nozzel manufacture designs them to run between X- Z operating ranges.. some flood jet nozzels and larger dropplet nozzels even state that they can be operated at 20- 80 psi, but for drifless spraying not to exceed 30 psi. its your money in the wind , not mine


----------



## riverwalkland

Just curious I read through this and didn't notice a post asking about this: do you have to clean off the spray bar when you get to each site? Around here by the time I drive around all day in a snow storm or when the roads are kinds messy there is about 1+ inches of snow caked onto everything on the back of my truck. I would think all the pumps and batteries and motor and especially the spray bar, which is closest to the road would just get covered with snow and slush and freeze up. Is this a problem at all? I would love to look at building a liquid set up some day but at least I only pay 91.50 /ton for salt up here right now.


----------



## GrandScapes

In the last couple weeks, we have outfitted 4 of our trucks with liquid setups. 3 pickup setups and a balls out setup in our dump. So far we are having pretty decent results. Still playing around with nozzles and boom setups, etc. We melted about a 1/2" of snow Friday once cars began to drive on it. Does take a LOT longer to apply then salt, but we are getting a pattern down. Better then fighting to find rock salt all the time for freaking sure. The one major problem we are currently having is the filters clogging and if not the filters, then the nozzels themselves. Anybody else having this issue? If so, what methods are you using to prevent clogging?

We kept 2 v box spreaders in just because we didnt have liquid setups for them but its probably just a matter of time before those are removed too. If we can have enough liquid units outfitted to spray, then we could afford to apply heavier and more detailed(less sites per route). Not to mention pre-treating and post-spraying. I know people say that squirting is not a replacement for rock salt. But I am beginning to think that if applied correctly, rock salt will be a thing of the past. At least until salt prices drop back down again. A few of our accounts have actually said that they like it more. It is not as messy, and doesent get tracked all over inside the buildings etc. We outfitted each of our pickups for about $1600 per truck (give or take a few bucks) and our dump setup cost us around $2500. Not ONE of our salt spreaders was under $3,000. Not to mention the maintenance to keep them going. There is not much mechanical parts to the liquid setups, other then the pump and valves. Plus being able to keep them filled and ready to go is nice too. No need to keep a skid or loader @ our yard to load salt, No begging salt vendors to bring us train loads. Its awesome, We have liquid sellers coming to our shop once or twice a week to get our business.

So far so good for us....


----------



## Mark Oomkes

elite1msmith;736057 said:


> thats always a good thing. and area will dicate what and how much yoru spraying. But your GPA, should be similar
> 
> when you build a sprayer custom. figure out what size is the first thing you should do. it doesnt matter too much what type of nozzel, pencil tip, fan , flood, .... they will be rated by how much GPM come out of them at what pressures. You figure out your desired GPM baased on the coverage area per nozzle, and the speed of travel and also the estimated rate per acre that should be applied. if you have a 10 foot spray width, and 5 nozzels to cover it. then each will spray 2 feet wide. then figure out how many feet it will take to cover an acre, and how long based on your desiered MPH travel speed to cover that distance, then divide the GPA by the estimated time... that will tell you how many Gallons per min, need to flow from each nozzel you have. heres the catch, the thickker your liquid the larger you need. there is a table on the net to do the converstion. water weights 8 lbs , your liquid spray is around 10.5 roughly. you need to take the calculated nozel size and multiply it but the converstion.. if i remember right its around 1.15..meaning if you needed a 1 GPM nozzel for water... you need a 1.15 GPM nozzel to acctually spray 1 GPM of your thicker liquid.
> 
> Pick a nozzel that is in the middle, or slightly lower end of its effective working range and psi... that way you can boost up the pressure to get more GPM if you need more
> 
> All your hoses and restrictions , should be larger than the sum of your nozzzel orfices.... if they dont list the size.. when you buy the nozzel , take a small drill bit set , and seee which one fits threw, will give you a close guess
> 
> take your total nozzels and mulitpy by GPM at maximum operating pressure that they recommend... that will tell you the SMALLEST pump working a 100% that you need. Again your better to have a larger one at 75% ... but anything over that is over kill, do what you wish on that
> 
> after your all done, you must test the system, and measure it out. see if it really applys per acre what u calculated it out at.. adjust the pressure a few PSI from there. till its correct.
> 
> If your really good , and have time... make a chart, of PSI and FLOW rate... then moitor condtions after you spray.. you might start to develpoe a chart .. FOR light fluffy snow apply at =x for hard pack =Y and so on. thats realy were the money savings would be, after plowing, you might find that you need to apply only half as much.....just for example.
> 
> I have one larger lot, now that i have some time, im gonna start messing with the stuf myself.,. I just got my tank, every thing else was built already. this lot is broken into 5 different parts, all the smae size...most the same sunlight and exposure. Im going to start applying at 30 GPA, then crank it up each one... come back 1 hour later and look at the results.
> 
> So fare i have figured out that on LIGHT fluffy snow, with little mostior content. less than 3/4 inch, a fan tip nozzel works best , i havent figured out the flow rate yet


OK, I really haven't kept up on the entire thread, so while you are correct about 2+2=4, the difference with de-icing liquids compared to herbicides is volume. When treating lawns, you are going with lower volumes\higher pressure in general. Totally opposite with de-icing. That is why a bigger pump is better, you can NOT be undersized in this area and do the job properly.


----------



## Superior L & L

GrandScapes;741183 said:


> I. The one major problem we are currently having is the filters clogging and if not the filters, then the nozzels themselves. Anybody else having this issue? If so, what methods are you using to prevent clogging?
> 
> :


Sam, 
are you guys buying your product from some dude in Lapeer? Last fall I was talking to Mike Breeden and he said you guys were talking to a guy out there about product and how to build a system. There was another guy who was posting on here a couple of weeks ago who was buying product in Lapeer and had clogged filter and nozzel problems. I would say find a different supplier or change the screen on the filters.
We've been though 25,0000 gallons and never had a clogged filter or nozzel.


----------



## GrandScapes

Yep. We are using a company just outside of Lapeer. We have all the correct screens/filters. The liquid just seems to be guming them up quickly. Works great when it is spraying, but we have to stop and clean them a few times per run. I think you gave the info to Robb already. But if you could pm me the people you are using, and we will give their stuff a try. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Superior L & L;742400 said:


> Sam,
> are you guys buying your product from some dude in Lapeer? Last fall I was talking to Mike Breeden and he said you guys were talking to a guy out there about product and how to build a system. There was another guy who was posting on here a couple of weeks ago who was buying product in Lapeer and had clogged filter and nozzel problems. I would say find a different supplier or change the screen on the filters.
> We've been though 25,0000 gallons and never had a clogged filter or nozzel.


Ditto, although a little more than 25,000 gallons.


----------



## elite1msmith

Mark Oomkes;741320 said:


> OK, I really haven't kept up on the entire thread, so while you are correct about 2+2=4, the difference with de-icing liquids compared to herbicides is volume. When treating lawns, you are going with lower volumes\higher pressure in general. Totally opposite with de-icing. That is why a bigger pump is better, you can NOT be undersized in this area and do the job properly.


for the record , i wasnt saying undersized pump

im simply suggesting that ppl are building these sprayers , without doing the math to figure out approx what size pump is needed ...if you were to run it at 100%

then step up the pump from there so your not maxing it out.

buying a hudge pump, with a motor... ideling the engine down, opening up the byoass recirculation valve and his pressure is still high?

All im suggesting is that alot of ppl could be wasting money and going way over kill. There is a reason that he cant get his pressure down. it could be mutiple problems... but this could be one reason.

Has anyone really done the math , and figured out approx how many GPM flow is needed for a boom size of say 15 feet , traveling at 10 mph? or 15 mph? if you wanted to apply at 50 gal per acre? or 80 gal per acre? -- i really think the flow rate is alot lower than we all think


----------



## Superior L & L

elite1msmith 
when you build one/if you build one do the "math" and let us know 

Thanks


----------



## flykelley

elite1msmith;744761 said:


> for the record , i wasnt saying undersized pump
> 
> im simply suggesting that ppl are building these sprayers , without doing the math to figure out approx what size pump is needed ...if you were to run it at 100%
> 
> then step up the pump from there so your not maxing it out.
> 
> buying a hudge pump, with a motor... ideling the engine down, opening up the byoass recirculation valve and his pressure is still high?
> 
> All im suggesting is that alot of ppl could be wasting money and going way over kill. There is a reason that he cant get his pressure down. it could be mutiple problems... but this could be one reason.
> 
> Has anyone really done the math , and figured out approx how many GPM flow is needed for a boom size of say 15 feet , traveling at 10 mph? or 15 mph? if you wanted to apply at 50 gal per acre? or 80 gal per acre? -- i really think the flow rate is alot lower than we all think


HI All
After redoing some plumbing I did get the pressure down to around 30 PSI. That way at about 1/3 1/2 throttle. The thing you don't seem to understand Elite is this is not a exact application rate and flow like lawn spraying. Like you said about a lawn too much and you can kill a lawn, not so with deicing. Yes you may use more product but there is a learning curve with every new piece of equipment. I also want to try a couple of other tips to see how well they work. Now I am taking my new big toy and going home and not letting you guys play with it any longer.

Regards Mike


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Superior L & L;744792 said:


> elite1msmith
> when you build one/if you build one do the "math" and let us know
> 
> Thanks


Dang, beat me to it.

Guess that's 3 now elite. 

Rather than doubting\questioning\thinking we're all idiots, go build one and use it.  

Then start asking questions and giving opinions on things you currently don't know jack about.


----------



## InfiniteVenture

*nozzles*



elite1msmith;674037 said:


> the problem from fan nozzels , is the mist it creates.. sometimes after a storm its very windy here.... and the 10 mph that im trying to drive and spray at isnt gonna help either.... so a fan nozzel ,25-50% might not acctually make the ground, it might be air born .... plus i really dont want the stuff blowing towards my truck , liquid calcium is BAD news for metal


It seems like you know what the right nozzles are to use, could you please enlighten me. Seven foot 1/2' boom what type and were can I buy them?
Thanks very much, Mark


----------



## Mark Oomkes

InfiniteVenture;747279 said:


> It seems like you know what the right nozzles are to use, could you please enlighten me. Seven foot 1/2' boom what type and were can I buy them?
> Thanks very much, Mark


Unless this is tongue in cheek, elite hasn't even built his yet and is too busy *****ing about why everyone else is overbuilding theirs while not having a clue of what he is talking about. So I wouldn't get too carried away asking his advice.


----------



## Bigmikesseasonal

Mark Oomkes;747803 said:


> Unless this is tongue in cheek, elite hasn't even built his yet and is too busy *****ing about why everyone else is overbuilding theirs while not having a clue of what he is talking about. So I wouldn't get too carried away asking his advice.


Well I see some of us don't play well in the sand box together! HAHAHA Everyone will always have a different opinion, what works for me may not work well for you! I'm gonna go and put my new ace pump together and retire the banjo pump. I will let you know how my baffle balls work out I should have them today and we will see what kind of pressure I can get out of the new pump they say 125 PSI and 175 gallons per min. 2" to 2" but I'm using 3/4' hose.

Remember If you don't want sand in your face don't throw it first!

My 2 cents, Mike


----------



## TheXpress2002

Bigmikesseasonal;747973 said:


> Well I see some of us don't play well in the sand box together! HAHAHA Everyone will always have a different opinion, what works for me may not work well for you! I'm gonna go and put my new ace pump together and retire the banjo pump. I will let you know how my baffle balls work out I should have them today and we will see what kind of pressure I can get out of the new pump they say 125 PSI and 175 gallons per min. 2" to 2" but I'm using 3/4' hose.
> 
> Remember If you don't want sand in your face don't throw it first!
> 
> My 2 cents, Mike


Question for you and I am not throwing "sand" unless its mixed with calcium. Where and what type of property do you have that you would need to lay down 175 gallons per minute. So basically with your 305 gallon tank you could empty that tank in 2 minutes. I just don't see someone driving 45 mph through a parking lot to lay down product. Its physically impossible to lay any product efficiently at those speeds. People don't drive that fast to lay down salt, why would you do that here?

Again best of luck to you. I will stick to my 30-40 gpm set-up that I am going with


----------



## elite1msmith

Mark Oomkes;747803 said:


> Unless this is tongue in cheek, elite hasn't even built his yet and is too busy *****ing about why everyone else is overbuilding theirs while not having a clue of what he is talking about. So I wouldn't get too carried away asking his advice.


well OMG,

understand that spraying water, milk, deicer, soap, or weed killer , setting up a system is the same.

SO WHAT difference does it make that i havnt tested out my boom yet? besides my own personal application? im using basic , simple math that a 5th grader can do. i was recommened by PJ,. and a few others to use pencil tips every 10 inchs. The nozzel chosen is based on the exact application....amoung alot of other personal preferances

Look heres the math = 10 MPH application rate - this is just my number, you can use your own. I picked it because 15 mph seemed too fast and drifting is a issue

10 foot boom , traveling at 10 mph (5280 feet) = 528,000 total sq feet covered in 1 hr

528,000 divided by 45,000 (appro 1 acre) = 11.73 acres per hour

11.73 multiplied by the MAXimum application rate ( for me i chose 80 gals per acre, which still seems high to me) = 938.4 divided by 60 mins = MAX FLOW RATE 15.64 gals per min

the deinsity flow rate of CAL at 11 lbs - 1.15 x 15.64 = 17.98 gals per min

so a pump that is 40 gals per min, is alittle big comparied to the 17.98

nozzles would divid up that 17.98 gals per min, based on the number of nozzels,which would tell you what size,(color) you should be buying, no matter what style or spray pattern you choose

thats the max application rate, and one that i choose, ...to me anything over that doesnt seem all that cost effective, and i would rather spread bulk salt. I still want to know what happened to everyone over the summer claiming to apply 40 gals per acre with results? heck even at 40 gals per acre you would only need a pump that puts out 9 gals per min

from there you changes tips, and adjust pressures to find what you like


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## Bigmikesseasonal

TheXpress2002;747999 said:


> Question for you and I am not throwing "sand" unless its mixed with calcium. Where and what type of property do you have that you would need to lay down 175 gallons per minute. So basically with your 305 gallon tank you could empty that tank in 2 minutes. I just don't see someone driving 45 mph through a parking lot to lay down product. Its physically impossible to lay any product efficiently at those speeds. People don't drive that fast to lay down salt, why would you do that here?
> 
> Again best of luck to you. I will stick to my 30-40 gpm set-up that I am going with


Xpress, I guess you misunderstood! I said it has the capability there is no way in hell I would apply at your figures! I just figure I will be able to boost some pressure with this pump its the same one Flykelly has I just want my boom to spray at 30-60 psi if needed at half throttle, right now it is only spraying at 18psi & I still get about 25 gpm out of this banjo pump. The problem is I can't regulate this pump for light snows or raise the pressure for hard pack cause its maxed out. With the new one I will be able too! Mike


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## TheXpress2002

Bigmikesseasonal;748119 said:


> Xpress, I guess you misunderstood! I said it has the capability there is no way in hell I would apply at your figures! I just figure I will be able to boost some pressure with this pump its the same one Flykelly has I just want my boom to spray at 30-60 psi if needed at half throttle, right now it is only spraying at 18psi & I still get about 25 gpm out of this banjo pump. The problem is I can't regulate this pump for light snows or raise the pressure for hard pack cause its maxed out. With the new one I will be able too! Mike


I understood fully. I was just trying to wrap my head around the 175gpm


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## elite1msmith

Bigmikesseasonal;748119 said:


> Xpress, I guess you misunderstood! I said it has the capability there is no way in hell I would apply at your figures! I just figure I will be able to boost some pressure with this pump its the same one Flykelly has I just want my boom to spray at 30-60 psi if needed at half throttle, right now it is only spraying at 18psi & I still get about 25 gpm out of this banjo pump. The problem is I can't regulate this pump for light snows or raise the pressure for hard pack cause its maxed out. With the new one I will be able too! Mike


what size is your new pump going to be?


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## Bigmikesseasonal

*Baffle Balls*

*Hey Guys, I finally got those baffle balls I ordered they are definately bigger than I had thought! I took some photos of them. They tell me it will save wear & tear on my suspension & braking system! The only downfall I can see is that if you don't have a 16" tank opening your out of luck! I will assemble all of them tonight and install them tommorrow, it takes 24 of these guys for a 300 gal. tank, they seem to be made out of some pretty tuff plastic. Once I fill my truck again I will post the outcome on if they work as well as I've heard,will see! Mike*


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## InfiniteVenture

*spray nozzles*

Still no one has answered my Question? 
Does anyone have a good boom setup? 
If so, what type of nozzles and where can I get them?

Thanks, Mark


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## elite1msmith

InfiniteVenture;750039 said:


> Still no one has answered my Question?
> Does anyone have a good boom setup?
> If so, what type of nozzles and where can I get them?
> 
> Thanks, Mark


i custom made the boom that i was going to play around with

i noticed a few guys have been using the booms turbo turf sells

from what i can tell it really just depends on your system , if your going to use a fan spray , then a standard boom , that is pre manufc. should work , the spacing on most is 20 inches apart, if your using pencil tip nozzels, i was told do place them 10 inchs apart which is why i made mine custom

if you do buy or make one, something to cosider , is how well protected the nozzels are from accidents, or backing up into snow piles . i made mine so you could stand on it


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## Bigmikesseasonal

*Nozzles*



InfiniteVenture;750039 said:


> Still no one has answered my Question?
> Does anyone have a good boom setup?
> If so, what type of nozzles and where can I get them?
> 
> Thanks, Mark


 Check my profile album. My nozzles are 14" but if you look at my boom I can go 7" If needed the nozzles I have been using since Jan. 2007 are TJET SS8030 They are fan nozzles. I also have them on my side sprayers! Mike


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## DKG

I use a "Boomanator" nozzle. 1 nozzle, has at least a 1/4" opening, sprays about 14ft wide and about 50 gal per acre. I mounted it to a trailer hitch, easy on/off, easy to store etc.


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## ToniM

In case some people do not know this is what a boominator nozzle looks like.







Toni


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## ToniM

This is what the spray pattern looks like mind you they are available in a couple different ways, to spray left, right or a full pattern.


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## Moonlighter

Hi guys I have been reading through all fifteen pages and have a good idea of the basics, but I would love some comments on the setup I am planning. I just bought a 425 gallon low pro poly tank, I think I plan on using a gas powered motor with a pump that puts out 31 GPM, and I'm going to build a custom boom using the Tee Jett nozzles, and side nozzles with filters and the like. I like the cab control unit talked about earlier in the tread. Am I on the proper path, I am very interested in any and all input. I plan to offer both salt service and squirt service next season. Thanks in advance for any and all opinions. Brian.


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## DKG

Thanks Toni fof posting pictures. I'm still trying to learn to type with 2 fingers. Posting pictures may be years away!!


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## lawnprolawns

Moonlighter;750844 said:


> Hi guys I have been reading through all fifteen pages and have a good idea of the basics, but I would love some comments on the setup I am planning. I just bought a 425 gallon low pro poly tank, I think I plan on using a gas powered motor with a pump that puts out 31 GPM, and I'm going to build a custom boom using the Tee Jett nozzles, and side nozzles with filters and the like. I like the cab control unit talked about earlier in the tread. Am I on the proper path, I am very interested in any and all input. I plan to offer both salt service and squirt service next season. Thanks in advance for any and all opinions. Brian.


Dont start another pump discussion! I'm running a 150 gpm pump at half throttle. Nice and quiet.


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## ToniM

No problem with posting the pictures. How do you turn yours on/off from inside the truck? With a little toggle switch? There is a new remote control available for turning on/off looks like this.







Saves from runing wires inside the cab.


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## DKG

I have an electric solinoid valve for the boom, Wires go through the back window to a hand held switch box. The remote idea sounds great.


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## InfiniteVenture

*variables*



ToniM;750683 said:


> This is what the spray pattern looks like mind you they are available in a couple different ways, to spray left, right or a full pattern.
> View attachment 53230


Thanks for the input. 
These nozzles look like you would have to drive 20 mph at the rate at which they spray? 
It seems that there is so many variables to figure? 
Ground speed, nozzles, pressure, price per gal, % of calcium in solution, what is the minimum % of solution that will get the job done 22% 28% 32% 40%? 
The cheapest I can find calcium solution is .80 per gal at 30% seems really high with the drive I should mix it myself. 
It seems that we all got into this because of the price of salt.
Thanks, Mark


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## ToniM

Naw if you use a road side pattern nozzle that sprays 16 feet running at 20 psi you get 1.5 gpm driving at 5 mph you would put out 9 gallons per acre. Hope that helps.


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## InfiniteVenture

The boominator is 150.00 per nozzle seems like overkill?


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## DKG

Yeah, but you only need one.


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## customx2

*12 voult pumps or gas*

guys i have been dealing with both and and still would to go 12 volt in stead of gas we just cant seem to kept the brine out of the motor. try 12 volt but burn them up to fast


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## Superior L & L

LOL so is it 12 volt or gas. You said the gas motor gets chloride in it and the electrics burn up. I've ran about 25-30,000 gallons thought our gas motor and never had a problem.


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## Runner

Not to get off subject here, but DKG, What is that a picture of on your avatar? It looks like a dump truck with the bed raised up backwards. Can you please explain? Just wondering....It certainly is unusual.


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## CityGuy

It looks to be a front dump box. We have one on a single axle. It'll dump forward to the spinner that can be mounted on either side of the box, or it will dump like a normal dump truck. but we do not have a rear sander. It has it place just not in parking lots. Yes you can see what you are sanding but it does not throw product very far. I think it was designed for highway use. Drop on center line(s).


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## DKG

Yes it is a 2 way box. With the box raised forward for salting, the weight is kept over the center of the truck for better stability. With the spinner mounted in front of the drive wheels, you have traction which comes in handy on slopes. There is the added benifit of not having a V box or tailgate salter to store in the off season. The tank between the cab and box is used for pre-wetting.


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## Superior L & L

DKG;753191 said:


> Yes it is a 2 way box. With the box raised forward for salting, the weight is kept over the center of the truck for better stability. With the spinner mounted in front of the drive wheels, you have traction which comes in handy on slopes. There is the added benifit of not having a V box or tailgate salter to store in the off season. The tank between the cab and box is used for pre-wetting.


Looks weird ! I have problems with the who;e rear end of our salt truck rusting up, doesnt that rust almost half the undercarriage and brake lines and wheels?


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## DKG

Rust is always an issue with salt. My previous salt truck had a problem with "salt blasting" the transfer case. We have addressed that by installing a spinner guard to prevent salt hitting that area, and by lowering the spinner. The spread pattern is about 6 ft to the left, and to about the driveshaft on the right. The mud-flap in front of the duels helps to keep salt out of the wheel, brakes etc. I KROWN rust proof the truck twice a year as well.


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## Grassman09

Now that spring is here time to start making some progress on my liquid experiment. I was thinking of spraying Magic -0 or the Beet juice stuff cut with brine.

For experiment purposes I found a 1 1/2" water pump that does 70GPM not sure the PSI capability of this unit. The gas tank don't hold much more then a weed whacker only 1.7Ls so I cant run it for too long should suffice until I step up to a 5HP GC Honda.

As for the spray bar I was going to copy one of Turbo Turf's bars as I can get all the nozzles and bodies from Rittenhouse.

Another idea is this 8' to 12' boom from dultmeier.


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## RLM

I'm looking to start with liquids next year, this thread has a amazing amount of info.


One question, In NY we have neighbor notification laws for lawn spraying pesticides, is ice considered a "pest"


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## Ropinghorns

This thread is great, " I don't care who you are."


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## turboguy

Grassman, the spec's on your pump sound ok without knowing more details. Let me ask you a question however. What is the pump itself made of? My reason for asking is that a lot of the small pumps are aluminum which might not be a good choice. 

Humm, notifications for pesticides. Ice does have it pesty side.


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## Grassman09

Turboguy,

I'm not sure what its made out of as I have not picked it up yet. Main reason for picking it up is for just pumping water from a tote for some landscape projects I have coming up this year hopefully. 

The mag chloride and salt would eat the Alum eh?

Dave.


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## deicepro

Hey guys,
I'm new to the site, but I have years of liquid experience and would like to help out, after all we are all in it to make money. I've spent years and lots of dollars and its finally paying off. My profit margins are 60% to 80%. No lie. I also make my own liquid calcium chloride that has a freeze point of -60. Any questions just send em my way.


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## Grassman09

turboguy;772153 said:


> Grassman, the spec's on your pump sound ok without knowing more details. Let me ask you a question however. What is the pump itself made of? My reason for asking is that a lot of the small pumps are aluminum which might not be a good choice.
> 
> Humm, notifications for pesticides. Ice does have it pesty side.


Yep its cast Aluminum..


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## terrapro

Can we bring this thread back to life? How did you guys end up last year, it sounded like the majority is sold on liquid?"


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## lawnprolawns

Haha.. I just got the email for this thread and thought "Really!? This thread is still going!?" Just kidding.

May as well post my results. We tried about 1000 gallons of liquid last year at various sites. One was a subdivision, a couple parking lots, and a small condo complex. In the sub we only were contracted to do intersections, and this didn't work well with liquid. It spread out and everything turned slick again. Rock salt, on the other hand, spread out well with traffic and worked well. 

Parking lots had decent results, along with the condos. When you can saturate the entire area with liquid is when it seems to work best. Traffic helps a lot too.. the more cars driving through the stuff and spreading it around, the better. (As long as it's not like the sub where only small sections were treated). 

Liquid obviously doesn't have the granular traction that salt has, which helps out until melting takes place with salt. It also is a little more "iffy" as to whether or not it's going to work with good results or not. If conditions were too wet, or if there was too much to melt, it seemed to lack in the "good results" area. Though, last winter when it was barely 5 degrees out, our lot that we used it on was one of the only wet, clean lots. 

I talked to some guys in the area that clear 100's of acres of snow every storm, and they make their own salt brine with good results. They plow my church's 10 acre parking lot, and I was very impressed with what their liquid's performance. They also make a geo-melt/salt brine mix for pre-treating that they have good results with. He said that it works better in wet conditions, or if there is a lot of packed down snow. Also said his results were twice as good of those with CaCl. 


Overall.. I'm not sold on the stuff, especially since salt is a lot cheaper this year. I'm buying a new Vbox instead of building a bigger better spray system, in other words. I believe Superior is using salt again this year.. or am I wrong Paul?

If I have some free time this winter (I'm sure there will be some) I'll likely do some more experimenting with liquid, improve the spray system, and try some different chemicals. For now I'm just going to plan on making a pre-treat system for the Vbox and see how that works.

Depending on the contracts we get and how much de-icing we have to do, now that I think about it, I might rig the liquid system in another truck and hit some stuff with that.. who knows. I'll think about that when I actually have contracts in hand..


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## terrapro

lawnprolawns;809979 said:


> who knows. I'll think about that when I actually have contracts in hand..


Hear ya there! :crying:


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## Kubota 8540

terrapro;809964 said:


> Can we bring this thread back to life? How did you guys end up last year, it sounded like the majority is sold on liquid?"


Although being new to posting on this site, I have been reading the posts for a couple years. After slinging rock salt for 20 years, I experimented with liquids in Jan 09. I don't think it will replace rock salt, but under the right conditions, its another tool in the tool box to use. I used salt brine in 23% solution (homemade). I sprayed at 7pm and it snowed 3/4" at 3am. It confused most people as to what I was attempting. But my lots were clear and wet at 4am, when the other contractors were just getting out starting to spread huge amounts of salt on that dry fluffy 3/4" snow @ 15 degrees. My customers were totally satisfied. My question is...What if it didn't snow? Do I still charge my customers or do I just absorb the cost of spraying?


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## Bigmikesseasonal

3 years on liquid and going strong! I don't think I will ever use salt again! We just signed a 3 yr contract on a municipal account all liquid! Good luck to you salters Morton said prices could rise as high as last year. I heard this at MGIA classes 2009. We buy liquid in 5,000 gal shipments for better pricing. Product were using is good till - 32 degrees rock salt can't touch this! Mike


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## Kubota 8540

Bigmikesseasonal;811900 said:


> 3 years on liquid and going strong! I don't think I will ever use salt again! We just signed a 3 yr contract on a municipal account all liquid! Good luck to you salters Morton said prices could rise as high as last year. I heard this at MGIA classes 2009. We buy liquid in 5,000 gal shipments for better pricing. Product were using is good till - 32 degrees rock salt can't touch this! Mike


Sounds like liquid calcium chloride? I have only experimented with liquids, works great on dry fluffy snow and cold temps. How about wet snows and freezing rain?


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## terrapro

Bigmikesseasonal;811900 said:


> 3 years on liquid and going strong! I don't think I will ever use salt again! We just signed a 3 yr contract on a municipal account all liquid! Good luck to you salters Morton said prices could rise as high as last year. I heard this at MGIA classes 2009. We buy liquid in 5,000 gal shipments for better pricing. Product were using is good till - 32 degrees rock salt can't touch this! Mike


BigMike do you use gravity, gas, or electric?


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## EliteSnow&Ice

Bump to the front, lots of info i need to read again.


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## Superior L & L

Bigmikesseasonal;811900 said:


> Good luck to you salters Morton said prices could rise as high as last year. I heard this at MGIA classes 2009.


Thats weird cos i have a contract with Mortons. I dont think they can change the price...i guess i could be wrong


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## terrapro

Does anoyone use any nozzles like the boombuster or the xp boomjet?


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## DKG

I use the BOOMBUSTER nozzle.


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## terrapro

DKG;814104 said:


> I use the BOOMBUSTER nozzle.


So how is it working for you? Are you just running two at the higher galpermin or do you use four? How wide is the path?


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## DKG

I just run one. It sprays about 12ft wide and fairly even. I apply about 50 gal per acre.


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## Superior L & L

one nozzel sprays 12'. That would be interesting to see


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## Grassman09

Its like a boominator nozzle. 









http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=1545


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## DKG

Thanks Dave, I'm a dummy when it comes to posting pictures.


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## JD Dave

Superior L & L;847452 said:


> one nozzel sprays 12'. That would be interesting to see


I can confirm it sprays 12ft, I doubted it when he told me also.


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## turboguy

If it helps any of you guys who are building your own anti-icing system we changed to a new valve and controller set up this year on our units and I have some of the old style units that we would like to get rid of and would be willing to give a bargain on. This would be a TeeJet 744A set up and includes the three gang valve, controller for 3 lanes and on the go pressure adjust. These are new, never used and we would let them go at just about our OEM cost. I would like to get $ 450.00 out of them and I doubt you can match this price anywhere. Again this would be everything you need to control three boom sections. I am not sure how many we have but off the top of my head I think it is 7 of them in stock. If you are interested you can call us at 800-822-3437 Thanks!


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## DAFFMOBILEWASH

Seems to me the Boominator has some potential. I am going to a local place to try to get the proper GPM and pressures to deliver 20Gal/acre. That way I can run two on the back side of the truck. Some of these nossels can spray 30'. Time to get the flow charts out !!! Anyone try the wide spray ones???


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## rpm

*Liquid Deicer*



Bigmikesseasonal;811900 said:


> 3 years on liquid and going strong! I don't think I will ever use salt again! We just signed a 3 yr contract on a municipal account all liquid! Good luck to you salters Morton said prices could rise as high as last year. I heard this at MGIA classes 2009. We buy liquid in 5,000 gal shipments for better pricing. Product were using is good till - 32 degrees rock salt can't touch this! Mike


Which deicer are you using? We are looking for a good deicer at a good price.


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## flykelley

rpm;1126476 said:


> Which deicer are you using? We are looking for a good deicer at a good price.


Mike just sold his deicer, rock salt prices have come down from a high of $150.00 a ton two years ago. Most of us are buying bulk this year in the high $50.00 a ton range. Makes salt cheaper to use.

Mike


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## Bossman 92

I thought I shoud bring this one back, lots of good info here!


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## firelwn82

Lots and lots of good info here. Yeah its 15 pages long but totally worth skimming through if your looking for liquid sprayer info..... O and it 3 years old too.....


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