# None payment for snow removal services



## datank450

Hello everybody! Well I have a sub agreement with a landscaping contractor that I've been pushing snow with for 3 years now. I did winters hourly only helping push the snow, this year they gave me a new contract with agreements to sign for each site I was to service on my own. Last year they asked me to do a couple concrete projects for them, and they would have me bid only on the concrete work. No demolition or what not. They would basically let me know the address and what needs done, and tell me to email the estimate to the office. About 3 1/2 months went by and they finally said they got the job and I could start next week. Well there was never an agreement signed for any concrete project, but they paid up in the end. The customer that I did a set of steps for them used salt this year and the concrete flaked away over the winter and complained to the contractor. Now they are withholding my payment for snow removal so they can pay another contractor to tear out and redo the steps. They also didn't seal the concrete either, witch was not part of my scope of work.. Is this legal for them to do and can I sue and win? What should I do to get paid?
Please help a brother out!
Thanks!


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## 1olddogtwo

What's legal is having a sign proposal.

Do have anything is writing for the snow work?

Dont you offer any type of warranty?

I'm not a concrete guy so I won't argee if the salt caused the problem, do you have any pics?


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## datank450

1olddogtwo;2137256 said:


> What's legal is having a sign proposal.
> 
> Do have anything is writing for the snow work?
> 
> Dont you offer any type of warranty?
> 
> I'm not a concrete guy so I won't argee if the salt caused the problem, do you have any pics?


No there isn't any warranties provided for concrete, only a guarantee that it will crack. I did sign a prime contract and agreements for every lot that I serviced for snow removal, but none for the concrete. It is not recommended to use salt in the first year of curing for concrete, it is also recommended to seal the concrete. My job was to pour the concrete, pull forms and get paid.


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## 1olddogtwo

I would think if you signed a contract on the snow, and you did what was required, they have no legal recourse. They have to pay per contact.


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## Whiffyspark

Unless this is more than a few thousand dollars it's probably not worth pursuing.

I don't know if it's legal because you offered no warranty


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## Mark Oomkes

You can't use salt on concrete for a year?

Has anyone told the local, state and federal highway folks that? 

Not sure aboot Pittsburgh and Pennsyltucky, but here in Michigan lots of road and bridge work gets done within a month or less of snow season and it gets salted. 

Shoot, I've salted a crap ton of concrete less than a year old without ever having an issue. 

We work for a ready-mix company and they told a competitor he could salt an entire parking lot that was less than a year old. 

Did you use hungry salt? Because this has been discussed before and the consensus of professionals is that the 1 year recommendation is bovine excrement.


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## 1olddogtwo

How much money we talking?

How is it they pour concrete highways, and a few months later they salt them?

Why do some guys at salt right to the mix?


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## datank450

Mark Oomkes;2137261 said:


> You can't use salt on concrete for a year?
> 
> Has anyone told the local, state and federal highway folks that?
> 
> Not sure aboot Pittsburgh and Pennsyltucky, but here in Michigan lots of road and bridge work gets done within a month or less of snow season and it gets salted.
> 
> Shoot, I've salted a crap ton of concrete less than a year old without ever having an issue.
> 
> We work for a ready-mix company and they told a competitor he could salt an entire parking lot that was less than a year old.
> 
> Did you use hungry salt? Because this has been discussed before and the consensus of professionals is that the 1 year recommendation is bovine excrement.


This is what the concrete plant told me. Now in respect to concrete that hasn't been sealed, yes it should not be salted in the first year.


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## datank450

1olddogtwo;2137262 said:


> How much money we talking?
> 
> How is it they pour concrete highways, and a few months later they salt them?
> 
> Why do some guys at salt right to the mix?


It a different mix for highway. It's called hi early and has a greater cement ratio.


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## Mark Oomkes

datank450;2137264 said:


> This is what the concrete plant told me. Now in respect to concrete that hasn't been sealed, yes it should not be salted in the first year.


Bull crap........


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## datank450

Mark Oomkes;2137267 said:


> Bull crap........


I guess you don't know that salt makes concrete flake away. Concrete is still curing in the first year.


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## Mark Oomkes

Bull crap.......

You don't know what you're talking aboot.


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## datank450

Mark Oomkes;2137271 said:


> Bull crap.......
> 
> You don't know what you're talking aboot.


Maybe I don't but I know I should be paid for my snow removal services


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## 98Chevy2500

Salt doesn't hurt concrete, unless its been on a yearlong diet getting real hungry. Junk mix or poor finishing practices causes the flaking. Salt it heavy and get it dry before refreeze at nightfall. We've poured plenty of concrete during the winter, got salted before 28 days cure, and still didn't flake. Heck, I poured a dump pad in front of our salt bin 5 years ago, during a pouring rain, the week of thanksgiving, received deliveries a week later, and still looks like new despite a few hairlines since I was too cheap to add steel. Not a single pop.


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## BUFF

datank450;2137264 said:


> This is what the concrete plant told me. Now in respect to concrete that hasn't been sealed, yes it should not be salted in the first year.


I've been told the same thing by a couple different Concrete guys and it why I use pepper instead.....


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## 98Chevy2500

datank450;2137270 said:


> I guess you don't know that salt makes concrete flake away. Concrete is still curing in the first year.


Salt does not make concrete flake, and concrete never stops curing. 100 year old concrete is still curing as long as moisture is present.


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## Mark Oomkes

datank450;2137273 said:


> Maybe I don't but I know I should be paid for my snow removal services


Never said you shouldn't be.

Properly mixed, air-entrained, properly prepped and installed concrete will not flake. Either you ordered crap or the readi-mix plant gave you crap. It doesn't have to be sealed either.

http://grgravel.com/

Call them, that's the readi-mix company I was referring to above. Been around since 1920 so I'm thinking they probably know what they're talking aboot.


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## datank450

98Chevy2500;2137274 said:


> Salt doesn't hurt concrete, unless its been on a yearlong diet getting real hungry. Junk mix or poor finishing practices causes the flaking. Salt it heavy and get it dry before refreeze at nightfall. We've poured plenty of concrete during the winter, got salted before 28 days cure, and still didn't flake. Heck, I poured a dump pad in front of our salt bin 5 years ago, during a pouring rain, the week of thanksgiving, received deliveries a week later, and still looks like new despite a few hairlines since I was too cheap to add steel. Not a single pop.


Well I just poured and finished the concrete as I do with every other job. Bad finishing practices my ass! That's the only concrete that's flaked on me and I been finishing for 15 years. I do know I was about 98 degrees that day, and heat isn't good for concrete like the cold.


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## 98Chevy2500

Air entrained can go both ways.....millions of yards of concrete was poured for many years before AE came about, it all looks fine to this day.


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## datank450

98Chevy2500;2137281 said:


> Air entrained can go both ways.....millions of yards of concrete was poured for many years before AE came about, it all looks fine to this day.


I'm just wandering if they were able to legally withhold payment because of this. I don't know why it flaked, I just finished the concrete and try to not add too much water. I pour on about a 4"-5" slump.


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## 98Chevy2500

datank450;2137282 said:


> I'm just wandering if they were able to legally withhold payment because of this. I don't know why it flaked, I just finished the concrete and try to not add too much water. I pour on about a 4"-5" slump.


Did they give you a chance to replace the steps at no charge under warranty? Every state is different, but generally a company is required to provide at minimum one year labor and materials warranty. Have your supplier take a look at them, they may cover the new concrete for free while you supply labor. The customer is happy, your landscaper is happy, and hopefully they will pay up for the snow work. It happens, every contractor has issues, whether it is our fault or not, we still have to stand behind our workmanship.

As far as witholding payment, ask an attorney. Whether legal or not, as every state varies, I personally would withold enough to pay for the steps redo until the sub either stepped up and replaced if still under warranty, or I hired another sub to replace them.

Sounds like there may be more to the story.


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## peteo1

If you signed a contract for snow amd completed the plowing, salting, etc per the terms of the contract then they need to pay you. The way it sounds to me is that the concrete is exclusive from the plowing and cant be used as a reason to withhold paymebt for snow services. Hindsight being 20/20, next time have a contract for cement work


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## 1olddogtwo

peteo1;2137289 said:


> If you signed a contract for snow amd completed the plowing, salting, etc per the terms of the contract then they need to pay you. The way it sounds to me is that the concrete is exclusive from the plowing and cant be used as a reason to withhold paymebt for snow services. Hindsight being 20/20, next time have a contract for cement work


Exactly

Sue them, you'll probably win.

You'll probably lose on the countersuit.

Did they offer you a chance to do the repairs? If not, that might be ur saving grace.


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## iceyman

1olddogtwo;2137313 said:


> Did they offer you a chance to do the repairs? If not, that might be ur saving grace.


doesnt sound like they did... Which probably shows how much they think of him as a concrete guy


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## Randall Ave

1olddogtwo;2137313 said:


> Exactly
> 
> Sue them, you'll probably win.
> 
> You'll probably lose on the countersuit.
> 
> Did they offer you a chance to do the repairs? If not, that might be ur saving grace.


This. You need to have a contract with your warranty stated. And if you did the job, and feel it should have been sealed. You should have done it.


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## snocrete

No need for me here...I see all has been taken care of...btw, I hate hungry salt


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## FredG

datank450;2137266 said:


> It a different mix for highway. It's called hi early and has a greater cement ratio.


Hi early does not give the concrete any strength. It is a fast setting agent. How do you know you did not get a hot load because of the small amount used?

In NY the highway mix is different, 5 to 6klbs. I did some around the police station and the city salted it hard. I had to replace some flags/sections. We sealed it hard.

Maybe you can get some comproco and give it a couple of thin applications and broom. Cleaned properly and some adhesive agent it stays for a long time.


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## FredG

98Chevy2500;2137274 said:


> Salt doesn't hurt concrete, unless its been on a yearlong diet getting real hungry. Junk mix or poor finishing practices causes the flaking. Salt it heavy and get it dry before refreeze at nightfall. We've poured plenty of concrete during the winter, got salted before 28 days cure, and still didn't flake. Heck, I poured a dump pad in front of our salt bin 5 years ago, during a pouring rain, the week of thanksgiving, received deliveries a week later, and still looks like new despite a few hairlines since I was too cheap to add steel. Not a single pop.


You would probably have the hairline cracks anyways, The steel only holds it together for when it cracks. I use fiber mesh.


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## FredG

datank450;2137257 said:


> No there isn't any warranties provided for concrete, only a guarantee that it will crack. I did sign a prime contract and agreements for every lot that I serviced for snow removal, but none for the concrete. It is not recommended to use salt in the first year of curing for concrete, it is also recommended to seal the concrete. My job was to pour the concrete, pull forms and get paid.


No warranty?? I'm still waiting on the balance on warranty work. Not only do you have to warranty, You have to wait for end of warranty for balance of job. This is why I'm not thrilled with doing sidewalk for when they redo city streets.

You are right about it cracking. My thing is the concrete and the plowing are two different jobs. You should repair the step, They don't have to be took out and installed again. If it was a hot load you won't be able to prove it. Them small loads I put temp gauge on. Is there a gutter over the steps. The water off the roof could do this to.


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## datank450

FredG;2137356 said:


> No warranty?? I'm still waiting on the balance on warranty work. Not only do you have to warranty, You have to wait for end of warranty for balance of job. This is why I'm not thrilled with doing sidewalk for when they redo city streets.
> 
> You are right about it cracking. My thing is the concrete and the plowing are two different jobs. You should repair the step, They don't have to be took out and installed again. If it was a hot load you won't be able to prove it. Them small loads I put temp gauge on. Is there a gutter over the steps. The water off the roof could do this to.


Yeah that's what I said about it because it seemed like there was latent water in the surface and I thought it was either a gutter problem or hydrostatic issues. I come to find out that this guy has a sump pump on the inside of the wall were it flaked away. So I asked what the pump was for and he said it was to collect water from the other side of the basement.


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## FredG

datank450;2137369 said:


> Yeah that's what I said about it because it seemed like there was latent water in the surface and I thought it was either a gutter problem or hydrostatic issues. I come to find out that this guy has a sump pump on the inside of the wall were it flaked away. So I asked what the pump was for and he said it was to collect water from the other side of the basement.


Patch the step right, Invest in the comproco with the adhesive, The comproco has warranty if applied correctly. If the guy still has a problem with paying you. Handle it from there. You did your part by standing behind your work and repairing the step.

Make sure you by the right stuff, They got different stuff for depth and applications you are patching. Use a solid sponge float and a splash broom.


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## JD Dave

We've pounded salt to new concrete at malls and office building and never had concrete flake. To me there should be warranty without a question.


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## Mr.Markus

I've poured my share of concrete but am not learned on quality...I know that the newer it is the more salt it requires cause it ices over more. Same as asphalt, it tends to hold the moisture on the surface longer when it's newer. Can't blame the guy for salting it...


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## Pristine PM ltd

It is a concrete guys great Escape to blame the snow guy for there poorly done pour.


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## datank450

Pristine PM ltd;2137390 said:


> It is a concrete guys great Escape to blame the snow guy for there poorly done pour.


Yeah I don't care what you think. The law is the law. That project was completed and I signed a new contract and agreement for the snow removal. I only charged $4,000 for the concrete. They owe me $$11,000 for snow removal, witch is and should be separate. If they wanted a better concrete guy they shoulda did there homework and got somebody that knows what's going on I guess.


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## datank450

it was they're project and they should have sealed it or paid me the cost to seal it. So yes, in that respect, it was the landscapers fault that has no business selling concrete jobs.


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## datank450

I'm just an uneducated concrete guy trying to make a living. Guess that's why due diligence is a must right. I guess I'll learn a little from this as well as them after the judge rules in my favor hahaha!


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## Whiffyspark

So if you didn't have a contract where's the proof you did the work for the judge?


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## datank450

Whiffyspark;2137398 said:


> So if you didn't have a contract where's the proof you did the work for the judge?


No there wasn't an agreement signed for the concrete work. There was an agreement for the snow removal. I offered to fix the steps, long story short, they told me they were paying somebody else my snow removal money to fix it.


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## 1olddogtwo

As I said earlier, the snow contract is the contract. Period. Unless there is some mumbo-jumbo about previous or past work done outside of the snow, I would say they are SOL

Ask for the 7K, then pay a lawyer. It doesn't matter how crappy of a job you did or didn't do. Or if it was a wasn't sealed. It doesn't matter.


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## 98Chevy2500

FredG;2137353 said:


> You would probably have the hairline cracks anyways, The steel only holds it together for when it cracks. I use fiber mesh.


Properly compacted subgrade and quality concrete will do more good than fibermesh ever will. That and straight cement mix, none of that flyash garbage!


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## Whiffyspark

1olddogtwo;2137404 said:


> As I said earlier, the snow contract is the contract. Period. Unless there is some mumbo-jumbo about previous or past work done outside of the snow, I would say they are SOL
> 
> Ask for the 7K, then pay a lawyer. It doesn't matter how crappy of a job you did or didn't do. Or if it was a wasn't sealed. It doesn't matter.


At the end of the day they're not going to pay him and he'll be up to eyeballs with a lawyer. Kind of hard to sue someone without a contract. Unless you have emails and copies of them agreeing to your verbal contract.

Just my opinion. I agree he is owed his snow money in full. But they likely have him by the nuts and it's not going to matter lol


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## Pristine PM ltd

I also he is owed what he is owed, but there is also the honour of standing by your job if it didn't go right.


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## Freshwater

No cement contract means no warranty, period. Doesn't matter if it was the op fault or not, they didn't ask for a warranty in writing. There is no arbitrary 1yr warranty requirement. If there was, no warranty under 1yr would exist. They're in breech of contract, and as such are committing fraud.


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## 98Chevy2500

Freshwater;2137417 said:


> No cement contract means no warranty, period. Doesn't matter if it was the op fault or not, they didn't ask for a warranty in writing. There is no arbitrary 1yr warranty requirement. If there was, no warranty under 1yr would exist. They're in breech of contract, and as such are committing fraud.


Makes no difference whether there was a contract or not, warranty is still in effect unless specifically spelled out and signed as "No Warranty" Somebody needs to either hire a good lawyer, or man up and fix the bad concrete.


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## 98Chevy2500

Pristine PM ltd;2137413 said:


> I also he is owed what he is owed, but there is also the honour of standing by your job if it didn't go right.


Agreed, if he is not allowed to do the rework, either write a check to the landscaper for the concrete replacement and then receive the 11K snow check in return, or deduct the cost of tear out, labor,and concrete from the snow money.


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## FredG

98Chevy2500;2137410 said:


> Properly compacted subgrade and quality concrete will do more good than fibermesh ever will. That and straight cement mix, none of that flyash garbage!


Fiber mesh concrete has been proven to be the best. The mesh is in the mix and strengthens the whole load. Unlike steel mesh that only strengthens were wire is present.


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## FredG

Fly ash is a substitute for Portland, The only concrete I would want a % of ash would be in a slip form operation.


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## Freshwater

98Chevy2500;2137426 said:


> Makes no difference whether there was a contract or not, warranty is still in effect unless specifically spelled out and signed as "No Warranty" Somebody needs to either hire a good lawyer, or man up and fix the bad concrete.


They would have to prove that he verbally offered a warranty, which they cant. Same as he can't prove that he said no warranty. There's nothing in writing one way or another. Nobody can force a company to warranty any work. If you can show me a law that says such, I'm interested. There's definitely no 1yr requirement, ever heard of a 90 day manufacturer warranty? That wouldn't exist, as they'd have to comply with the 1yr rule, we'd have 1yr manufacturer warranty. They signed off on the work by paying the final payment, the op obligation to that job ended there. I'm not arguing whether the work was right or not. They have no right to hold the money hostage, they're in breach of contract.


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## FredG

datank450;2137393 said:


> it was they're project and they should have sealed it or paid me the cost to seal it. So yes, in that respect, it was the landscapers fault that has no business selling concrete jobs.


Forget the sealer, The foot traffic will wear it off with time.


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## Whiffyspark

Sounds like you and the head honcho need to have a conversation. Take him out there and explain the water issues. Did the work you replaced have the same issues?


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## 1olddogtwo

Screw the warranty, it's standing behind ur work.
(Not say that's the case here)
I do a lot of roofing on the side, it's by word of mouth. I never talk about it, if its a problem down the road, I just take care of it.


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## datank450

Whiffyspark;2137411 said:


> At the end of the day they're not going to pay him and he'll be up to eyeballs with a lawyer. Kind of hard to sue someone without a contract. Unless you have emails and copies of them agreeing to your verbal contract.
> 
> Just my opinion. I agree he is owed his snow money in full. But they likely have him by the nuts and it's not going to matter lol


LOL I do have a contract for the snow removal.. You musta missed that part!


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## 98Chevy2500

FredG;2137440 said:


> Fiber mesh concrete has been proven to be the best. The mesh is in the mix and strengthens the whole load. Unlike steel mesh that only strengthens were wire is present.


Was referring to rebar, not any type of mesh


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## 98Chevy2500

FredG;2137443 said:


> Fly ash is a substitute for Portland, The only concrete I would want a % of ash would be in a slip form operation.


No kidding, that's why plants use it, as it saves them $$$. I don't want flyash in any concrete, it weakens the strength.


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## Whiffyspark

datank450;2137461 said:


> LOL I do have a contract for the snow removal.. You musta missed that part!


Meant for the concrete.


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## 98Chevy2500

FredG;2137451 said:


> Forget the sealer, The foot traffic will wear it off with time.


A good quality solvent based cure and seal will trap the moisture for a slower cure time, which results in stronger concrete. Sometimes we use it, sometimes not.


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## datank450

Whiffyspark;2137465 said:


> Meant for the concrete.


I was paid for the concrete last year when I completed the job


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## 98Chevy2500

datank450;2137467 said:


> I was paid for the concrete last year when I completed the job


Wonderful, now go fix the concrete work and get paid in full for all the snow work. Everybody will be happy and sleep better at night.


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## datank450

98Chevy2500;2137468 said:


> Wonderful, now go fix the concrete work and get paid in full for all the snow work. Everybody will be happy and sleep better at night.


Yeah they said no I'm not allowed to fix it and paid somebody else however much to rip out the project and redo it. I was already going to fix it long story short. The contractor is an *******


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## 98Chevy2500

datank450;2137470 said:


> Yeah they said no I'm not allowed to fix it and paid somebody else however much to rip out the project and redo it. I was already going to fix it long story short. The contractor is an *******


Ask to see the other contractors invoice, deduct that amount from the snow total invoice, and request a check.


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## Whiffyspark

datank450;2137467 said:


> I was paid for the concrete last year when I completed the job


That's not my point. My point is if you take it to court where is your contract saying you did said concrete work? You'll spend money on a lawyer you probably won't get back


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## Freshwater

98Chevy2500;2137468 said:


> Wonderful, now go fix the concrete work and get paid in full for all the snow work. Everybody will be happy and sleep better at night.


They've already told him they're hiring another contractor to fix the concrete, and paying out of the op snow money. Even if they're was a warranty, they're wrong. Their contracted to pay the snow money. They then can take the op to court to try to recoup the cost of the repair. They don't just get to make the decision to use the snow money to pay for the repair, only a judge can do that. They're committing fraud.


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## 1olddogtwo

How is ur 11,000 bill added?

Do you have a fleet of trucks/eqm?


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## FredG

98Chevy2500;2137463 said:


> No kidding, that's why plants use it, as it saves them $$$. I don't want flyash in any concrete, it weakens the strength.


Despite your beliefs ash is spec. in most slip form operations, Like tarmac or roadway, bridge decks. Not to mention tree huger engineers. Along with re bar chairs and mats. Have you ever worked with a Gomaco or bidwell concrete paving machines.


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## datank450

1olddogtwo;2137482 said:


> How is ur 11,000 bill added?
> 
> Do you have a fleet of trucks/eqm?


That's basically the whole season that they are withholding. I have six lots that I serviced for them and that's what the invoices for January, February and March.


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## datank450

I invoiced at the end the month and payments were due 30 days after. So February 1st was supposed to be my first payment, witch I never got.


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## FredG

98Chevy2500;2137466 said:


> A good quality solvent based cure and seal will trap the moisture for a slower cure time, which results in stronger concrete. Sometimes we use it, sometimes not.


Solvent base or water base sealer is not allowed on highway, Proper Curing process is performed with burlap and constant water. Foot traffic, car traffic. truck traffic, Plane traffic does wear sealer off of concrete. This is why curing seal is not allowed on heavy highway. Sealer would not have saved them steps.


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## FredG

datank450;2137492 said:


> That's basically the whole season that they are withholding. I have six lots that I serviced for them and that's what the invoices for January, February and March.


Why did you feel you had to give the landscaper 3 months without payment? First month he was late I would of payed him a visit. Something fishy going on here.


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## datank450

FredG;2137497 said:


> Why did you feel you had to give the landscaper 3 months without payment? First month he was late I would of payed him a visit. Something fishy going on here.


Nothing fishy going on. The first payment was due February1st, and when that time came, I called asking about my money. They said none of my invoices came in. On February 28 they made a partial payment of $2,800.00 saying that's all of the invoices that came in. This left they're balance growing with me up to $11,000. The winter was basically over by the time they said they were not paying me. I was broke and needed money, so I started and finished a few projects between then and now and didn't have the time to deal with that. Now I want my money. Period.


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## peteo1

Sounds a lot like working for an NSP


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## FredG

datank450;2137561 said:


> Nothing fishy going on. The first payment was due February1st, and when that time came, I called asking about my money. They said none of my invoices came in. On February 28 they made a partial payment of $2,800.00 saying that's all of the invoices that came in. This left they're balance growing with me up to $11,000. The winter was basically over by the time they said they were not paying me. I was broke and needed money, so I started and finished a few projects between then and now and didn't have the time to deal with that. Now I want my money. Period.


I can appreciate you going and completing some projects in need of money. You should of never closed one eye to late invoices. Whatever invoices were do that they did not receive should of been hand delivered so they can not blow smoke. Partial payments is not good enough, Invoices are to be payed in a timely manner always.

So if they refuse to give you the opportunity to patch that step. Make sure you take some pics. of your steps and get pics of new steps installed. I find it as strange that they don't want you there to patch that up and resolve this matter.

The plowing is due to you under any circumstance, It just might take attorney fee's etc, to get it. If you want and you need some working capitol collect the 7K and deal with the steps later. They are holding your money and when you got more evidence, Meaning That the steps where demoed and installed again. I would bet dollars to donuts them steps don't even get redone and only patched anyways.

You have to stand behind your work. You were not givin this opportunity. I wish you would put up some pics. I am not convinced you are totally at fault. Don't start cracking, Everybody here is just trying to help no matter how they express it. Most of us no how to deal with the dishonest and unreasonable.


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## FredG

peteo1;2137576 said:


> Sounds a lot like working for an NSP


I was thinking the same thing, Maybe this landscaper was involved with a NSP and learned some new habits.


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## datank450

FredG;2137579 said:


> I can appreciate you going and completing some projects in need of money. You should of never closed one eye to late invoices. Whatever invoices were do that they did not receive should of been hand delivered so they can not blow smoke. Partial payments is not good enough, Invoices are to be payed in a timely manner always.
> 
> So if they refuse to give you the opportunity to patch that step. Make sure you take some pics. of your steps and get pics of new steps installed. I find it as strange that they don't want you there to patch that up and resolve this matter.
> 
> The plowing is due to you under any circumstance, It just might take attorney fee's etc, to get it. If you want and you need some working capitol collect the 7K and deal with the steps later. They are holding your money and when you got more evidence, Meaning That the steps where demoed and installed again. I would bet dollars to donuts them steps don't even get redone and only patched anyways.
> 
> You have to stand behind your work. You were not givin this opportunity. I wish you would put up some pics. I am not convinced you are totally at fault. Don't start cracking, Everybody here is just trying to help no matter how they express it. Most of us no how to deal with the dishonest and unreasonable.


I don't know how to post pics


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## FredG

datank450;2137591 said:


> I don't know how to post pics


:laughing: I know it took me a while to figure it out. Can you attach them to a email not PS?


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## datank450

Since they breached the contract, am I legally allowed to go and solicate there customers for business?


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## 1olddogtwo

Who has deemed it as a breach of contract?


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## datank450

1olddogtwo;2137604 said:


> Who has deemed it as a breach of contract?


I guess I did lol


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## datank450

It probably needs a ruling from a judge to be breach of contract?


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## FredG

datank450;2137607 said:


> It probably needs a ruling from a judge to be breach of contract?


I'm sure it does, He already gave you a partial, Squeeze that $7k out of him and take the rest to small claims. You can go after as many of his clients you want. It is what it is unless you want to pay $300.00 per hr on a possible smoke blowing attorney. This guy is not straight. This is the same slime that NSP's pull.


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## datank450

FredG;2137610 said:


> I'm sure it does, He already gave you a partial, Squeeze that $7k out of him and take the rest to small claims. You can go after as many of his clients you want. It is what it is unless you want to pay $300.00 per hr on a possible smoke blowing attorney. This guy is not straight. This is the same slime that NSP's pull.


With the partial payment, I'm still owed $11,000


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## 1olddogtwo

If he pays you the 7K... What's that excuse not to pay you?


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## Freshwater

datank450;2137607 said:


> It probably needs a ruling from a judge to be breach of contract?


Yes, just like a judge has to rule that you owe them for the repair. They don't get to make that decision on their own. They owe you all 11k. 
The proper course of action for them would be, have you repair/replace, or pay for someone to do it then sue you for the cost. 
Sounds like you'll have to sue them, you have a STRONG case.


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## Whiffyspark

Does the company start with a g? Just curious. The guy I plow for works for a company. They pay but take forever. He got paid in July for March last year lol


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## Masssnowfighter

Like others have mentioned, if they did not offer to let you make the repairs to the concrete first they have no legal grounds to with hold money or sue you. If they asked for you to fix it and you refused then they can sue you for the cost of having someone else repair it. I don't know how it is in PA but in MA the contractor or sub contractor always has the legal right to fix the job themselves one time. If you do a crappy job on the repair then the home owner or contractor can legally hire some one else and stick you with the bill.


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## FredG

Masssnowfighter;2137666 said:


> Like others have mentioned, if they did not offer to let you make the repairs to the concrete first they have no legal grounds to with hold money or sue you. If they asked for you to fix it and you refused then they can sue you for the cost of having someone else repair it. I don't know how it is in PA but in MA the contractor or sub contractor always has the legal right to fix the job themselves one time. If you do a crappy job on the repair then the home owner or contractor can legally hire some one else and stick you with the bill.


Tell um Mas.....


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## datank450

Well I made a stop into they're office today and it seems as though they are playing games. They tried saying that I said I didn't want to fix it. They also tried saying that concrete job is is tied to the sub agreement that I have with them. 
#1 I didn't say that I wasn't going to fix it
#2 They never had me signed a schedule or sent a schedule for that project and they never signed my estimate that they requested. They also tried telling me that I sent an invoice in for that concrete job, witch I didn't. 
I would rather things not go this way, and I fix the project but they are playing dirty, so I don't even care anymore how it goes if they have to fix that project. It seems like they are trying to twist it and put words in my mouth.


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## Randall Ave

You need to go see a lawyer. He needs to fire a letter of intent to file suit for the money owed. And stating your position on the concrete work. But in the future, invoices need to go out the next day. Don't let a customer get that behind with you. You are taking a risk, and sometimes things like this happens. He is just looking for a reason not to pay you. You need some pictures of the concrete work if this thing goes in front of a Judge.


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## SnoFarmer

Time to talk to a lawyer.
Some times a letter from said lawyer will rattle their cage just enough to get payment for the plowing.

The creat is a 2nd issue.


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## FredG

I thought he was offering you the balance of the snow with the concrete subtracted?? This is showing his dishonesty as one thing has nothing to do with the other. Get a attorney and explain you just want a letter to go out at this time. Report him to the BBB if this crook is a member.

Once again, Do not let anybody get that far behind with you again. Keep track of when your invoices are due, If late pursue at this point. Get on it and good luck. Let us know how you make out. payup payup


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## FredG

Did you collect any monies yesterday. If not, Why not?


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## 1olddogtwo

Simply put, they are not paying you.

Probably never were.


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## FredG

1olddogtwo;2137759 said:


> Simply put, they are not paying you.
> 
> Probably never were.


I agree, Time to put a thorn to him. I would be like a stone in his shoe.


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## Whiffyspark

I said that in the Beginning of the thread lol

Anyone know how much it would cost to sue him? Just curious


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## Freshwater

Whiffyspark;2137762 said:


> I said that in the Beginning of the thread lol
> 
> Anyone know how much it would cost to sue him? Just curious


Every attorney is different, some might want 1/3 of the balance recieved with a win and none if they lose. Some want a certain amount for a trial, and some are by the hour.

Op, they were playing dirty from the beginning trying to tie one job to the other. Doesn't matter what you said, or what they said you said, you have a signed contract that doesn't say that. The right lawyer might get you more than your owed over this.


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## datank450

Freshwater;2137768 said:


> Every attorney is different, some might want 1/3 of the balance recieved with a win and none if they lose. Some want a certain amount for a trial, and some are by the hour.


Can I make him pay attorney fees?


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## Whiffyspark

My aunt is going through a divorce. They've paid her attorney $5k so far. She has to pay $50 for each email they send. 

Sure seems expensive. What have the offered to pay you?


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## datank450

Whiffyspark;2137778 said:


> My aunt is going through a divorce. They've paid her attorney $5k so far. She has to pay $50 for each email they send.
> 
> Sure seems expensive. What have the offered to pay you?


They said they would deduct the cost of replacing the concrete out of my invoice. I charged $4,000 to put the concrete in and finish it. They ripped it out.


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## FredG

datank450;2137785 said:


> They said they would deduct the cost of replacing the concrete out of my invoice. I charged $4,000 to put the concrete in and finish it. They ripped it out.


Okay so they ripped it out, Why don't you demand payment on the balance. Obviously they have no intention on paying. Get what you can get for now. Then fight for the illegal stuff he's pulling.

I'm not saying you don't have a good case, You could lose to stranger stuff has happened. Don't act upset just get the balance for you end up with nothing.


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## datank450

FredG;2137787 said:


> Okay so they ripped it out, Why don't you demand payment on the balance. Obviously they have no intention on paying. Get what you can get for now. Then fight for the illegal stuff he's pulling.
> 
> I'm not saying you don't have a good case, You could lose to stranger stuff has happened. Don't act upset just get the balance for you end up with nothing.


I can't get nothing until they complete the job they said. They said they are starting this week. I can't force them to pay, if I could have I woulda had my money a long time ago.


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## datank450

Well I can force them in court.


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## FredG

datank450;2137790 said:


> Well I can force them in court.


Get on it, You got the attorney? Don't let this drag on. The Judge might think why did you let this go on so long. Just sayin.


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## 1olddogtwo

I must say, I gave this thread a max of 24 posts before it locked.


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## Freshwater

1olddogtwo;2137840 said:


> I must say, I gave this thread a max of 24 posts before it locked.


Been a pretty good talk so far.


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## Randall Ave

PS has been kind of civil lately. Op, you can't drag your feet. You have to get a lawyer now. Or you are not going to get anything. Do you have any emails with them on this?


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## FredG

1olddogtwo;2137840 said:


> I must say, I gave this thread a max of 24 posts before it locked.


Why? Cause of one bull headed concrete guy.  :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## BUFF

1olddogtwo;2137840 said:


> I must say, I gave this thread a max of 24 posts before it locked.


The mods must be in Orlando spinning around on big Tea Cups........


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## Mike_PS

BUFF;2137911 said:


> The mods must be in Orlando spinning around on big Tea Cups........


Thumbs Up...and it was nice to meet you there Buffster, I was shocked you fit in that thing :laughing:


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## BUFF

Michael J. Donovan;2137914 said:


> Thumbs Up...and it was nice to meet you there Buffster, I was shocked you fit in that thing :laughing:


Wow that was quick and proves you stalk a select few....... :waving:

BTW that was my Evil Twin you met.:laughing:


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## Mike_PS

BUFF;2137916 said:


> Wow that was quick and proves you stalk a select few....... :waving:
> 
> BTW that was my Evil Twin you met.:laughing:


don't flatter yourself ...and sorry, I just assumed it was you


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## FredG

Michael J. Donovan;2137918 said:


> don't flatter yourself ...and sorry, I just assumed it was you


You probably seen a Sasquatch all cleaned up. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Come out of the everglades...


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## FredG

1olddogtwo;2137840 said:


> I must say, I gave this thread a max of 24 posts before it locked.


I know what you mean, With the length of time the OP closed one eye to it and the opportunity to not fix the step with no actions. Could of got a little crazy. If that is what you were thinking.Thumbs Up

Now he don't even want to give him the balance. I would say the landscaper pretty much made up his mind not to pay. The ? if the salt hurt the concrete is ridiculous if the salt hurt it or not.

The steps only need repair, It was not the landscapers call to rip them out unless on his own dime, Not the OP. Given enough time salt will eat any concrete, Blacktop surface. Same as it does are vehicles. If there's water coming off the roof to steps it will happen again more so than the salt.

I'll plead the fifth on the sealer,


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## FredG

datank450;2137769 said:


> Can I make him pay attorney fees?


I would say that depends on the Judge, If he thinks you are in the right and the landscaper was dishonest and unreasonable maybe. I would ask for it.


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## SnoFarmer

I was awarded all court costs, but mine were filed in small clams court.


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## FredG

SnoFarmer;2138006 said:


> I was awarded all court costs, but mine were filed in small clams court.


Yes me to, But I did not have a attorney, Did you? I got all the filling fees, Court costs etc. I had witnesses, Meaning guys that worked with me and there paychecks for that job. Piece of cake, That Judge could see right through him and made it clear she did not believe him.

Took about 2-3 weeks for the judge to make her decision, I won not full amount because I just went for the max, He had 30 days to pay. 31 days come a long he said he needs thirty more days. I called the sheriff the sheriff come back with check.


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## Sawboy

Well lookie there. My post got deleted.


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## 1olddogtwo

Sawboy;2138087 said:


> Well lookie there. My post got deleted.


What did it say Bob?

Welcome to the kool kid club

Op, any fresh updates?


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## FredG

OP, Whats up, You got this handled or what? I hope you know you got a pretty good case, This landscaper has done everything under the sun not to pay you. Not to mention involving the steps with your snow services.

The judges see right through these crooks and no there dishonest. Try to prove some hardship, You claim you were broke and had to knock out a few jobs. You drag your feet this could make you look irresponsible (I know your not) and not in need of these funds. Not that you would loose,

Don't give the judge no reason to sniff your way. Have all your ducks in a row, Invoices, Dates, Pics, Contacts, Invoices he payed. Again, You always have to be a good collector.


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## BUFF

1olddogtwo;2138102 said:


> What did it say Bob?
> 
> Welcome to the kool kid club
> 
> Op, any fresh updates?


I alwayz thaught it's spelted Klub..... huh learnt sumting new


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## MSsnowplowing

I know this is from april but you guys missed what he said above.
"No there isn't any warranties provided for concrete, only a guarantee that it will crack."
I wouldn't want steps that are guaranteed to crack put in


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## FredG

MSsnowplowing said:


> I know this is from april but you guys missed what he said above.
> "No there isn't any warranties provided for concrete, only a guarantee that it will crack."
> I wouldn't want steps that are guaranteed to crack put in


Pressure treated wood might be better for you.


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