# Magic Salt, Or Other BIO Additives.



## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

What is in Magic Salt, or any other salt treated with Ag bi-products. Basically what is it Exactly.

Reason I ask is that I'm thinking of doing a pre-wetting system to drop onto my spinner when throwing salt to help speed up the process and possibly use less salt.

There is an Ethanol plant/distillery nearby and can probably get the product for the fraction of the cost over buying it through Magic or others. I know corn bi-products are used in some.

Thanks.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

With exception to straight Geomelt (not Geomelt 55), they are (in my research) all MgCl based, with varying sources of carbohydrates (ie: "distiller's byproduct", "corn sugar", etc). I've read every MSDS out there, and you won't find any specifics on them--"proprietary". Some will have straight molasses, some have beet juice, and then you have CaCl, Urea, CMA and other Acetetes.

In short, you're not likely to get the answer you're looking for. I guess the real question should be "what are you looking to accomplish?", then you can figure out which product will be the best choice.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1213666 said:


> With exception to straight Geomelt (not Geomelt 55), they are (in my research) all MgCl based, with varying sources of carbohydrates (ie: "distiller's byproduct", "corn sugar", etc). I've read every MSDS out there, and you won't find any specifics on them--"proprietary". Some will have straight molasses, some have beet juice, and then you have CaCl, Urea, CMA and other Acetetes.
> 
> In short, you're not likely to get the answer you're looking for. I guess the real question should be "what are you looking to accomplish?", then you can figure out which product will be the best choice.


Thanks. I did just finish some research and found this on a OCPA newsletter and it confirmed my suspicions. It looks like the CCDS from the local Ethanol plant is exactly what I'm looking for.

I'm looking to reduce salt usage from an environmental standpoint and also as a cost cutting alternative. I would still use standard road salt, but in conjunction with a solution. Basically I want to "drop" a solution onto my spinner as I'm throwing salt to create a brine faster.

*OCPA newsletter*



> Reducing Environmental Impact of Road Salts
> On September 22, Environment Canada released a proposed Code of Practice for the Environmental Management of Road Salts. The public comment period ends November 19, 2003 and Environment Canada will publish the final Code in 2004. The objective is to reduce harm to the environment caused by road salts while maintaining road safety. The Code incorporates flexibility, permitting road authorities using more than 500 tonnes of road salt in a winter season to develop salt management plans reflective of their own particular economic, environmental, and meteorological conditions. Five million tonnes of road salts are used annually in Canada causing significant damage to vegetation with runoff causing harm to aquatic life, birds, plants and animals. All chloride ions from road salts eventually find their way into waterways, whether by direct runoff into surface water or by moving through the soil and groundwater. The issue is significant to corn producers for two reasons. First, because the flexibility incorporated into the Code should encourage expanded usage of Calcium Magnesium Acetate (CMA) and other more environmentally benign deicers as replacements for common road salt. CMA can be made from corn starch. Secondly, an environmentally safe and cost competitive road deicer and sand encapsulant has been developed by Producers Renewable Products, LLC, North Oaks, Minnesota, in collaboration with South Dakota State University, Minnesota Department of Transportation, and corn ethanol producer Corn Plus. Trials demonstrated that increased concentrations of condensed corn distillers solubles dramatically decreased corrosion from road salt, and that corrosion was largely eliminated if the deicing solution contained equal weights of salt and corn stillage from the dry milling ethanol process. The solubility, viscosity, and low temperature freezing point of stillage were improved by the addition of salt.* A mixture containing 15% condensed corn distillers solubles, 10.5% NaCl, and 4.5% CaC12 was found to be cost competitive with NaCl when consideration was given for the better deicing properties and minimal corrosivity.*


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Nice find, but I gotta wonder--what's the other 70%?


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## Digger63 (Dec 16, 2010)

*Parts of the reciepe*

Probably just plain water, Most of those ingrediants are mixed with water to a certain percentage of product, I've suspect that water is used in all deicer products so that it can be mixed or sprayed onto salt. Most chemicals have a high specific gravity ( hence more weight per pounds) whereas water is abount seven pounds per gallons and light incomparrison to them. Solids would also be heavier adding to the weight of the product. You could actually look at the specific gravity of any product to see what the actual weight is. A heavy product would have more solids and chemical and less water. A lighter product would have more water.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1213697 said:


> Nice find, but I gotta wonder--what's the other 70%?


Water. It's a brine solution, and water is the base.

After my reading I'm figuring out too why you see municipal trucks with the small side tanks on the boxes. Magic and others say that if you are treating rock salt with their product, you only need to use 8 gallons per ton to get the full effect so really it doesn't take a whole lot in all reality unless you are trying to primarily use liquid.

That and magic and others are claiming a safer organic approach even though there is still salt and calcium chloride in mix is because of the corn bi-product helps to neutralize the corrosive nature of salt.

It's all making sense to me now. I need to call the ethanol plant today and figure out how much the CCDS is going for per gallon and see how much it will cost to mix 100 gallons at a time and if it's going to be cost effective to mix my own.

That and I need to figure if Mag Chloride will substitute for Calcium for an even less corrosive cocktail.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Digger63;1213760 said:


> Probably just plain water, Most of those ingrediants are mixed with water to a certain percentage of product, I've suspect that water is used in all deicer products so that it can be mixed or sprayed onto salt. Most chemicals have a high specific gravity ( hence more weight per pounds) whereas water is abount seven pounds per gallons and light incomparrison to them. Solids would also be heavier adding to the weight of the product. You could actually look at the specific gravity of any product to see what the actual weight is. A heavy product would have more solids and chemical and less water. A lighter product would have more water.


Just saw your post and thanks for the info.

The Material Data sheet for CCDS gives the average specific gravity of the product so I can use that data for the mix also.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

White Gardens;1213766 said:


> Water. It's a brine solution, and water is the base.
> 
> After my reading I'm figuring out too why you see municipal trucks with the small side tanks on the boxes. Magic and others say that if you are treating rock salt with their product, you only need to use 8 gallons per ton to get the full effect so really it doesn't take a whole lot in all reality unless you are trying to primarily use liquid.
> 
> ...


FWIW, IL does not use any Mag--just Cal, now.

Oh, and Digger--H2O is 8.33 lb/gal, for reference. I would hate to see any major overweight issues resulting from underestimating water weight.

:laughing:


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Westhardt Corp.;1214030 said:


> FWIW, IL does not use any Mag--just Cal, now.
> 
> Oh, and Digger--H2O is 8.33 lb/gal, for reference. I would hate to see any major overweight issues resulting from underestimating water weight.
> 
> :laughing:


Actually, it's 8.35 lb./gal.,not to get too anal about the matter,but the gestapo police are everywhere with their scales.Thumbs Up


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1214030 said:


> FWIW, IL does not use any Mag--just Cal, now.


Ya, was just reading up on some info and it looks like Mag CL is the root cause of flaking on concrete surfaces rather than calcium CL.

Even though, that's another debate for another time as concrete degradation from ice-melters is a heated topic.

Calcium appears to have advantages temp wise over Mag.

If I get a chance to, I want to try out a system by the end of this season, but I'm running out of time. Might be a project to tackle over the summer and start doing trials next winter. That would also give me plenty of time to get all my calibrations correct.

If, even at 8 gallons per ton of rock salt. means I can treat up to 12 tons per 100 gallons.

Or, even at 10 gallons per ton, I could treat up to 10 tons, which would get me about 3 loads of salt on my truck and that's about what I use during long duration events.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

tuney443;1214059 said:


> Actually, it's 8.35 lb./gal.,not to get too anal about the matter,but the gestapo police are everywhere with their scales.Thumbs Up


Odd...http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/waterproperties.html

(I always try to ensure accuracy if I talk specifics)



WG--Cal is always going to burn colder than Mag, and in general is easier on concrete. BUT, we all know now that only _hungry_ salt eats concrete.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1214075 said:


> WG--Cal is always going to burn colder than Mag, and in general is easier on concrete. BUT, we all know now that only _hungry_ salt eats concrete.


:laughing: I saw that in someone's sig on here. Cracks me up every time I see that quote.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Westhardt Corp.;1214075 said:


> Odd...http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/waterproperties.html
> 
> (I always try to ensure accuracy if I talk specifics)
> 
> ...


So do I,there were some other sources regarding this,some in your favor,but most in mine,but I chose this one to show everybody because it's actually temperature dependent.


Resources, Tools and Basic Information for Engineering and Design of Technical Applications!

Custom Search

Water - Density and Specific Weight
Density and specific weight of water at temperatures ranging 0 - 100 oC (32 - 212 oF) - Imperial and SI Units
Sponsored Links

At aprox. 4oC (39.2oF) pure water has it's highest density (weight or mass):

1 g/cm3 = 1 g/ml = 1 kg/litre = 1000 kg/m3 = 1 tonne/m3 = 62.4 lb/ft3 = 8.34 lb/gallon.
Densities and Specific Weight of Water in Imperial Units
Temperature
- t -
(oF)	Density
- ρ -
(slugs/ft3)	Specific Weight
- γ -
(lb/ft3)	(lb/US gallon)
32	1.940	62.42	8.3436
40	1.940	62.43	8.3451
50	1.940	62.41	8.3430
60	1.938	62.37	8.3378
70	1.936	62.30	8.3290
80	1.934	62.22	8.3176
90	1.931	62.11	8.3077
100	1.927	62	8.2877
120	1.918	61.71	8.2498
140	1.908	61.38	8.2048
160	1.896	61	8.1537
180	1.883	60.58	8.0969
200	1.869	60.12	8.0351
212	1.860	59.83	7.9957


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

True, it is affected by temperature. I do hope the .0058 lb difference doesn't throw off the batch. 2.68 grams can really cause a problem, _especially _ when there's only 3778.424421 grams per gallon @ 60°F.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

OK, come on guys, play nice. :laughing:

Weight is definitively something you need to consider and I'm glad you guys brought that up. I'm a stickler for staying withing my weight limit and the system is going to add weight that I'll need to compensate for.

That or I'll just go get a POS old F-250 or 2500 and stick B plates on it, throw a salter with 2 tons on, and add 100 gallons of liquid and I won't get pulled over. :waving:


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

I only mentioned it because of previous experience hauling truckloads of bulk liquid. The difference we're "discussing" is trivial, but a 1+ lb/gal difference is a very big deal. On the heels of your recent declarations of legal loads, it was only fair to bring that up.

Although, there would be a little ironic humor if you made a thread reading "So I Got an Overweight Ticket"...


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1214075 said:


> , we all know now that only _hungry_ salt eats concrete.





White Gardens;1214132 said:


> :laughing: I saw that in someone's sig on here. Cracks me up every time I see that quote.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1214768 said:


> Although, there would be a little ironic humor if you made a thread reading "So I Got an Overweight Ticket"...


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Seriously made me laugh.

Ya, I'll be eating crow some day if that happens.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Just be sure to copy that title and use it exactly...royalty free, of course.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Westhardt Corp.;1214710 said:


> True, it is affected by temperature. I do hope the .0058 lb difference doesn't throw off the batch. 2.68 grams can really cause a problem, _especially _ when there's only 3778.424421 grams per gallon @ 60°F.


I'll trust your calculations to be right on.I saw the slight difference of weights in the temp. ranges and just wanted to mention it.With the gestapo police by me,say with a 5K gallon tanker,it could possibly make a difference whether you get an overweight ticket or not.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1214794 said:


> Just be sure to copy that title and use it exactly...royalty free, of course.


Dude, you are full of it today. I give you props for being on your PS game. Thumbs Up

On a side note, I did find out what the CCDS is going for at the semi-local plant.

60 dollars a _______ . First person to get it right either per weight or gallons will get a virtual cookie.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

White Gardens;1215065 said:


> Dude, you are full of it today. I give you props for being on your PS game. Thumbs Up
> 
> On a side note, I did find out what the CCDS is going for at the semi-local plant.
> 
> 60 dollars a _______ . First person to get it right either per weight or gallons will get a virtual cookie.


I give up.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

60 bucks a *ton*. Or approximately 200 gallons.


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## plowfever (Nov 2, 2010)

I been looking into doing liquid around my area as well. I like being on the cutting edge and doing stuff different than evreyone else. So how do you plan to set up the pump and nozzle to spray onto your spinner? In my research you need like 1-3 gpm pump. That seems to be a bit much since you are saying 8 gal will treat 2,000 lbs. My question is this, is this 8 gal of the CCDS or 8 ga of the brine solution? I have a property that wants me to pretreat so I would love to use liquid so I can spray and forget about it getting tracked off or some bouncing into the lawn areas. I have read post on here about this subject but I guess Im just to stupid that I dont understand. I need it in the normal person lingo. LOL


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

White Gardens;1215298 said:


> 60 bucks a *ton*. Or approximately 200 gallons.


Crap, I lost out on my virtual cookie. I was figuring it would be ton-based, just because $60/gallon would require them to don ski masks.

What terminal is this? I've been out of the ethanol game for a few years, used to be just Pekin, but now there's several more production facilities.


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## millerman62 (Jan 27, 2011)

*organic additives for on board pre-wet systems*

There are a lot of products out there right now. They all work, however corrosion, melting power, speed, length of time it will work for are all considerations. There are lots of corn syrup / mag chloride based options that contain very little corrosion inhibitors and are a very thin viscosity. They come in green, blue and brown colors, typically less expensive. I don't care for these. I recomend Ice Ban ( now Safe Melt. ) It can be used as a pretreat, on board pre wet or stock pile treat. It is thicker and darker than the others like it and less expensive. We have been selling / using this product for 4 years now with great results. The organic comes from the forestry industry and is mixed with calcium chloride. To be fair the others like it Ice B Gone (distillers)and Magic (brewers) work very well also. I don't know what distributors are in your area, but there is a distributor of Ice Ban (Safe Melt) in western NY named Millennium Roads. Good luck.

Brad


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

plowfever;1215358 said:


> I been looking into doing liquid around my area as well. I like being on the cutting edge and doing stuff different than evreyone else. So how do you plan to set up the pump and nozzle to spray onto your spinner? In my research you need like 1-3 gpm pump. That seems to be a bit much since you are saying 8 gal will treat 2,000 lbs. My question is this, is this 8 gal of the CCDS or 8 ga of the brine solution? I have a property that wants me to pretreat so I would love to use liquid so I can spray and forget about it getting tracked off or some bouncing into the lawn areas. I have read post on here about this subject but I guess Im just to stupid that I dont understand. I need it in the normal person lingo. LOL


8 gallons of the brine solution. I'm looking to pre-treat my salt and not neccisarily go full liquid. Even the full liquid guys will tell you there is a time and place for Rock Salt.

If you want to pick someone's brain about full liquid applications, turn54 on here does and has been experimenting with different mixes.



Westhardt Corp.;1215544 said:


> Crap, I lost out on my virtual cookie. I was figuring it would be ton-based, just because $60/gallon would require them to don ski masks.
> 
> What terminal is this? I've been out of the ethanol game for a few years, used to be just Pekin, but now there's several more production facilities.


Pekin.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

millerman62;1215661 said:


> There are a lot of products out there right now. They all work, however corrosion, melting power, speed, length of time it will work for are all considerations. There are lots of corn syrup / mag chloride based options that contain very little corrosion inhibitors and are a very thin viscosity. They come in green, blue and brown colors, typically less expensive. I don't care for these. I recomend Ice Ban ( now Safe Melt. ) It can be used as a pretreat, on board pre wet or stock pile treat. It is thicker and darker than the others like it and less expensive. We have been selling / using this product for 4 years now with great results. The organic comes from the forestry industry and is mixed with calcium chloride. To be fair the others like it Ice B Gone (distillers)and Magic (brewers) work very well also. I don't know what distributors are in your area, but there is a distributor of Ice Ban (Safe Melt) in western NY named Millennium Roads. Good luck.
> 
> Brad


Basically I'm trying to find a way to make it for next to nothing and cutting out the middleman.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Forgive me for asking what does the corn sugar acheive?


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

cretebaby;1216011 said:


> Forgive me for asking what does the corn sugar acheive?


Something about the Carbohydrates (sugars) that help aid in the melting process. I haven't looked into entirely to truly understand it myself, but what I can tell it does help with the melting process.

I know part of it is also the "stickiness" from the sugars helping to keep you calcium, mag, or salt on the surface where in the case of calcium it creates heat and attracts moisture to help speed up the melting process.

In my situation, where it will benefit me, is that I can pre-wet my salt in order to activate it faster, and hopefully with the calcium/ddts mixture, I will be able to use 1/3rd less salt per application.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Not a chemist, but as I understand it there is a synergistic effect on the properties of NaCl when combined with the correct ratio of a carbohydrate. I've heard of beet juice, distiller's condensed solids, brewer's condensed solids (similar, but come from different organic sources), HFCS (high fructose corn syrup), regular corn syrup, and ethanol production byproducts. Many still use an MgCl base, though. A few use a CaCl base, which will probably be the coming trend.

Supposed to have a drastic effect of the "toxicity" of NaCl, reducing its corrosiveness as well as reducing its impact on plant life. Not to mention the purported drop in usable temperatures, resistance to refreeze and reduction of bounce & scatter and blow away. I buy the blow away part, but not so sure on the B&S. That's more related to correct application procedures, IMHO (in other words, turn the spinners down and don't drive 40 mph, that will have the same effect, but will increase time per application). And sometimes, you _want_ a lot of B&S...say, at a truck stop or large occupied parking lot for example (movie theater or 24 hr big box is a good example).

HTH...


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Good post.

I think you've summarized it very well Westhardt.

I'm still weighing the advantages and disadvantages. As a supplement to what I do I still feel the advantages will help me in the long run.

If I can save 1/3 of the cost of icemelt per season, then that can be huge if you are doing larger volumes.

If you were doing smaller lots and applications, then the cost effectiveness might not be to an advantage unless you were doing strait/primarily liquid applications.

I can see the blow away part. When I throw salt I can see a very small cloud behind me *if* my salt is super dry and also if the wind is strong. With that I've tried to change spinner speeds, but it doesn't seem to actually matter most of the time.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

You know every day when I get to my shop I see my 3 huge piles of horse manure in different states of composition---3-7 month old,app. a year old,and my black gold[fully composted] that I use for my topsoil operation.The 3-7 month old always has steam coming off the top as its ''cooking'' and no snow has ever built up on it.If there was ever a way to harvest_ _ _ _ _,I could just imagine the marketing strategy now. WOW. The possibilities are endless.:laughing:


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

tuney443;1217216 said:


> You know every day when I get to my shop I see my 3 huge piles of horse manure in different states of composition---3-7 month old,app. a year old,and my black gold[fully composted] that I use for my topsoil operation.The 3-7 month old always has steam coming off the top as its ''cooking'' and no snow has ever built up on it.If there was ever a way to harvest_ _ _ _ _,I could just imagine the marketing strategy now. WOW. The possibilities are endless.:laughing:


Love it! Ha!

You should collect the compost tea off of it and then add it to a pre-treatment system! That would smell great for the customer!


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