# Dealing with non-Contracted Customers



## brandonh98

Hi everyone, first let me apologize if this has been discussed before (which I'm sure it has) but I cannot find the information I'm looking for using the search feature. Maybe a link to a previous thread would be the most helpful here.

This is my first year with the snow removal business and I'm trying to do everything as legit as possible. I'm curious how you deal with customers that call you 5 hours before the snow starts falling. Do you have a separate contract for "emergency" snow removal? If so would the driver (me in this case) have to knock on the door to get this contract signed before plowing? Just curious what everyone else does. 

I'm currently in need of new customers and don't want to turn anyone down that could be a potential customer.

Thanks in advance.


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## SnoFarmer

How are you going to get paid if Ya don't go get the money?

We charge them full price + 
We also put them at the end of the list unless they are close to another drive we service.

I then take the opertunety to up sell them on a seasional contract.

Ps. One time wonders don't need to sigen a contract for service.


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## cjames808

no contract, you could though. I try to collect right when I tell them the price. This saves from stopping and getting out again to talk and collect payment. 

Tell them price, collect, do good job quickly. I do this at the end of bigger storms 4-6"+. 

I do what he said, and sell them on a contract service.


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## kimber750

Any flag downs are cash before the plow drops. As for OP's question, I would want paid at time of service or a signed contract before the storm starts.


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## FredG

Typically if you get a call before - during a storm they will only use you the one time or call you when they need you. They are not prepared, Could be they did not pay the contractor or just don't care. If your in need of some clients or work you will get enough flag downs.

I do agree with the guys above, If you can get them to sign on great. Once you got a full route these calls or flag downs can be a PITA. Always collect the money first. If you don't they will pull the old trick the other guy did it for $20.00 and you will be there arguing or accepting the $20.00 No way would I touch a flag down for less than $40. $45.

Around here you could sit in your truck with a cup of coffee at a convenience store and wait for them to come to you. I even had :terribletowel:flash there lights at me and try to get me to stop. Good Luck


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## brandonh98

Thank you for the replies. I was obviously over thinking this. I like the idea of cash in hand before the plow even goes down. I can live without a signed contract. I guess that's what insurance is for if something happens.

Having wave downs be a PITA is a good goal for next year! Lol

Thanks again


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## SnoFarmer

A contract will not protect you if something happens anyway,
that IS why we/you should have the proper insurance.
( your auto INS will not cover plowing)

Contracts spell-out the terms of service.

If your contract says you are not responsible for damages caused by X.Y&Z.
it may not hold up in court. If we could sign away liability we wouldn't need insurance.


ps we rarely do flag downs.I just wave back. I think we have only done 2 in the last 5 years.


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## FredG

brandonh98 said:


> Thank you for the replies. I was obviously over thinking this. I like the idea of cash in hand before the plow even goes down. I can live without a signed contract. I guess that's what insurance is for if something happens.
> 
> Having wave downs be a PITA is a good goal for next year! Lol
> 
> Thanks again


All of us have flag downs, This is a on going thing. If that's your goal your set, LOL


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## ktfbgb

I have a separate single page waiver of liability that I carry in the truck with me. In my area I can make as much or more from flag downs and calls during a storm. This is because I charge double what I normally would to do it just once. Hit them hard with that price and then try to talk them into a contract for the season. Some will actually sign up, some just want to call as needed when there is a storm over 12" in accumulation which we usually get about 3-4 times per season. Also a lot of customers don't have cash, set yourself up to accept Mobil credit card payments. Square is free, the card reader is free, there is no monthly fee, just a per transaction fee that is worth it. But do the waiver, they are drives you have never seen, you don't know the condition of the drive, or what's under the snow or the area you are stacking it.


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## kimber750

Last season I couldn't drive a mile without being flagged down. Even had a couple guys ask me to plow a public street so they could get to their hotel. Most change their mind when they here they price but some are willing to pay. Flag down are a huge risk IMO since there is no contract, have never meet the person before and for all I know that person could be trying to set me up for something, so I charge accordingly.


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## snowplower1

SnoFarmer said:


> A contract will not protect you if something happens anyway,
> that IS why we/you should have the proper insurance.
> ( your auto INS will not cover plowing)
> 
> Contracts spell-out the terms of service.
> 
> If your contract says you are not responsible for damages caused by X.Y&Z.
> it may not hold up in court. If we could sign away liability we wouldn't need insurance.
> 
> ps we rarely do flag downs.I just wave back. I think we have only done 2 in the last 5 years.


Same here, I rarely ever stop for a flag down. I get tons of calls though from people who don't have a plower in the middle of big storms. I just tell them there's no way I'll get to you until all my regular work is done. I'll typically say try to find someone that can do it now or call me back in the morning when the storm is over and then if I'm all caught up I might be and to


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## SnoFarmer

A waver,

the neighbor who comes over for coffee, didn't sign it,
and she fell on some snow you left in the drive and broke her hip.
.


Charles Lasher, operations manager for SIS Insurance Services in Carlsbad, Calif., says any snow plow operator, even those who clear off residential driveways, should have a good commercial policy worth at least $1 million in order to cover any damages from injuries that might occur.

Lasher also recommends snow plow operators have commercial vehicle and accident insurance to cover any issues arising from damage to a customer’s property.


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## FredG

It's important to know how much drive is under the snow. Could be two wide with a pull off and turn around. Go slow sometime I even stick my head out the window and watch the edge.  It's a hassle fixing top soil and seed in the spring. :hammerhead: Summer work will be starting, Don't have a lot of time or moneys for restoration.


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## FredG

SnoFarmer said:


> A waver,
> 
> the neighbor who comes over for coffee, didn't sign it,
> and she fell on some snow you left in the drive and broke her hip.
> .
> 
> Charles Lasher, operations manager for SIS Insurance Services in Carlsbad, Calif., says any snow plow operator, even those who clear off residential driveways, should have a good commercial policy worth at least $1 million in order to cover any damages from injuries that might occur.
> 
> Lasher also recommends snow plow operators have commercial vehicle and accident insurance to cover any issues arising from damage to a customer's property.


No ?. Liability's would have to be in order. Any contractor considering moving snow should start there.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> It's important to know how much drive is under the snow. Could be two wide with a pull off and turn around. Go slow sometime I even stick my head out the window and watch the edge.  It's a hassle fixing top soil and seed in the spring. :hammerhead: Summer work will be starting, Don't have a lot of time or moneys for restoration.


My waiver states that since I don't have a picture or markers down that I will not fix any damage to grass/landscaping for free, but would be happy to charge them for it in the spring.Thumbs Up


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## SnoFarmer

FredG said:


> No ?. Liability's would have to be in order. Any contractor considering moving snow should start there.


 Then shouldn't it just say, X,Y & Z snow removal LLC is not responsible for nutt'en , no way, no how.


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> My waiver states that since I don't have a picture or markers down that I will not fix any damage to grass/landscaping for free, but would be happy to charge them for it in the spring.Thumbs Up


That's fair enough because your not a :terribletowel:If the guy looked like a :terribletowel:cowboy I would think twice. Topsoil and seed are not cheap any more. Contractor grade seed something that will actually grow are about $75.00 over here plus the topsoil. Not sure on the weight looks like 80lb bag of salt.


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## FredG

SnoFarmer said:


> Then shouldn't it just say, X,Y & Z snow removal LLC is not responsible for nutt'en , no way, no how.


Yes for you cause you know what your doing. Some :terribletowel:got more sod than snow in the pile. This is not cool.


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## SnoFarmer

what aboot the pile of sprinkler heads.
you know the ones that were place right next to the drive.
as for the pile of sod, some drives are below grade, so if you go past the edge of the drive your plowing dirt & grass.
and you know they want the drive cleared from edge to edge.

op.
doing flag downs can be a easy way to pick up some extra cash
but
as you can see this also opens you up to more head aches down the road or in the spring.

what if you drive off on a retaining wall that was hidden in a drift?

for me, to many things can go wrong plowing a drive that is hidden under the snow.(we all have done it)

humm maybe you could use google earth to get a view of the drive without snow on it?


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## FredG

SnoFarmer said:


> what aboot the pile of sprinkler heads.
> you know the ones that were place right next to the drive.
> as for the pile of sod, some drives are below grade, so if you go past the edge of the drive your plowing dirt & grass.
> and you know they want the drive cleared from edge to edge.
> 
> op.
> doing flag downs can be a easy way to pick up some extra cash
> but
> as you can see this also opens you up to more head aches down the road or in the spring.
> 
> what if you drive off on a retaining wall that was hidden in a drift?
> 
> for me, to many things can go wrong plowing a drive that is hidden under the snow.(we all have done it)
> 
> humm maybe you could use google earth to get a view of the drive without snow on it?


LOL never thought of google. :hammerhead::hammerhead:


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## ktfbgb

humm maybe you could use google earth to get a view of the drive without snow on it?[/QUOTE]

That's actually a pretty good idea


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## brandonh98

ktfbgb said:


> I have a separate single page waiver of liability that I carry in the truck with me. In my area I can make as much or more from flag downs and calls during a storm. This is because I charge double what I normally would to do it just once. Hit them hard with that price and then try to talk them into a contract for the season. Some will actually sign up, some just want to call as needed when there is a storm over 12" in accumulation which we usually get about 3-4 times per season. Also a lot of customers don't have cash, set yourself up to accept Mobil credit card payments. Square is free, the card reader is free, there is no monthly fee, just a per transaction fee that is worth it. But do the waiver, they are drives you have never seen, you don't know the condition of the drive, or what's under the snow or the area you are stacking it.


I really like the idea of a waiver. Would you mind sharing yours with me? I also like the Square idea. Never heard of them. Thank you very much!

I also understand that the waiver doesn't completely protect you but its something. At a minimum I would be able to give the waiver to the GL insurance should something happen.

Thank you everyone for your replies.


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## areoseek

Cold calls are a solid 60% of my income each season. I find everyone around here in Erie turns people down like that because they have so many contracted people. I say screw the cheap contracts. I mean, I have a few, 20 or so, but these last minute desperate people are lucrative as frig. 40-80$ for a driveway? How can I say no! I make a sign that sits in my truck bed, "Ask me about Snow plowing" and Sit at a gas station or the bank. Never fails. Probably do 40 cold calls a day in a 5'' storm. and craigslist. post a few ads right before a storm. if you cant make money from that you're in the wrong business.


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## BUFF

I've done a couple flag downs and turned several away too. Typically I'm plowing a neighbors drive and they approach me. If the drive isn't marked (which it typically isn't) I tell them to walk each side of the drive to identify the edges of the drive, if they don't I don't plow. Always cash up front, give them a card and try to sell them service.


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## Philbilly2

When we did rally routes for the Citys and Villages doing cul-de-sacs, we were not allowed to do drives while on the taxpayer dollar... made perfect and right sense to me... so on the bigger storms, send an extra truck to the villages that would just sit and wait for the drivers to call with addresses to hit the drives.

Carried hold harmless waivers, credit card thing is a *GREAT *idea. Kids these days don't even have enough cash to buy a twinky at the petro station... (Can't believe that I tried to buy something the other day and they did not take cash... Cash is King, how do you not take cash????)


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## iceyman

During our blizzard last year i was charging 40$ just for bottom of the driveway. Would take me 3-4 pushes and i was gone. Prolly wouldve made more money doing that but my commercial accounts wouldnt of been to happy lol


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## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> When we did rally routes for the Citys and Villages doing cul-de-sacs, we were not allowed to do drives while on the taxpayer dollar... made perfect and right sense to me... so on the bigger storms, send an extra truck to the villages that would just sit and wait for the drivers to call with addresses to hit the drives.
> 
> Carried hold harmless waivers, credit card thing is a *GREAT *idea. Kids these days don't even have enough cash to buy a twinky at the petro station... (Can't believe that I tried to buy something the other day and they did not take cash... Cash is King, how do you not take cash????)


Hope everything went well, Cash I got to have a couple hundred on me. You never know when you need cash. Somebody must be some kind of :terribletowel:not to take cash. CASH RULES!!!!!


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> Hope everything went well, Cash I got to have a couple hundred on me. You never know when you need cash. Somebody must be some kind of :terribletowel:not to take cash. CASH RULES!!!!!


Ya that's crazy. I love when customers pay cash. It just goes in my pocket and no one knows otherwise. Hell if someone is willing to pay cash for a drive I would normally charge $75 for I'll do it for for $50.


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> Ya that's crazy. I love when customers pay cash. It just goes in my pocket and no one knows otherwise. Hell if someone is willing to pay cash for a drive I would normally charge $75 for I'll do it for for $50.


No ?, I would rather have it in my pocket than at the accountant. $25.00 for cash this is a no brainier to me. Not that I'm a tax crook.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> No ?, I would rather have it in my pocket than at the accountant. $25.00 for cash this is a no brainier to me. Not that I'm a tax crook.


Exactly. I'm not a tax crook either, they bleed us dry, so sometimes I just forget to go to the bank and deposit the cash after a storm, and since there isn't a receipt naturally I forget to enter it into QuickBooks tooThumbs Up. But for everyone on here I would advise that obviously you try and not forget.


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## brandonh98

At 45% the government is the only crook...(35% fed +10% state)


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## FredG

brandonh98 said:


> At 45% the government is the only crook...(35% fed +10% state)


Than they wonder why we have good earning hobbies. I'm going into hops soon, All these craft beer joints opening up all over. You can get a pretty good penny off a bushel of hops. Looking for a decent piece of farmland. Doing this with my daughter who is a brew master.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> Than they wonder why we have good earning hobbies. I'm going into hops soon, All these craft beer joints opening up all over. You can get a pretty good penny off a bushel of hops. Looking for a decent piece of farmland. Doing this with my daughter who is a brew master.


That will be interesting.


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> Exactly. I'm not a tax crook either, they bleed us dry, so sometimes I just forget to go to the bank and deposit the cash after a storm, and since there isn't a receipt naturally I forget to enter it into QuickBooks tooThumbs Up. But for everyone on here I would advise that obviously you try and not forget.


I just gave a land baron in the city $.050 cents a sq ft on some sidewalk he gave me cash, I was in heaven. Straight to the safe in the basement. She owns 120 rentals in the city. I'll take everyone I can get. :yow!:   My name is on the right of way permit tho. Still no trail I could of backed out.


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## Randall Ave

I get very little cash, but my wife has no problem holding on to it for me. When I started I worked for a guy at a hospital with my truck. Dumb a$$ came to the house next day to pay me, I never even got to touch the cash, wife walked over , never said a word, took the cash and walked away.


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## Philbilly2

ktfbgb said:


> Exactly. I'm not a tax crook either, they bleed us dry, so sometimes I just forget to go to the bank and deposit the cash after a storm, and since there isn't a receipt naturally I forget to enter it into QuickBooks tooThumbs Up. But for everyone on here I would advise that obviously you try and not forget.


Man, so you have creative payroll AND creative accounting!!!

I like it!


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## FredG

Randall Ave said:


> I get very little cash, but my wife has no problem holding on to it for me. When I started I worked for a guy at a hospital with my truck. Dumb a$$ came to the house next day to pay me, I never even got to touch the cash, wife walked over , never said a word, took the cash and walked away.


LOL, He had to know he was a


Randall Ave said:


> I get very little cash, but my wife has no problem holding on to it for me. When I started I worked for a guy at a hospital with my truck. Dumb a$$ came to the house next day to pay me, I never even got to touch the cash, wife walked over , never said a word, took the cash and walked away.


That's a good thing, My wife would give it to one of the kids, She is a pretty good earner tho, I don't mess with her much. It's hard for all of us to get cash. People have cards today for everything. If I can get a cash job I have to hoard it for that rainy day. 100% pay out verses a 45% payout. That's quite a spread.


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## Nursemylawn

ktfbgb said:


> My waiver states that since I don't have a picture or markers down that I will not fix any damage to grass/landscaping for free, but would be happy to charge them for it in the spring.Thumbs Up


Can you share your waiver with us please...Lol


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## ktfbgb

Nursemylawn said:


> Can you share your waiver with us please...Lol


Send me an email. [email protected]


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## ktfbgb

ktfbgb said:


> Send me an email. [email protected]


im on my iPad and can't figure it out to post it here lol


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## areoseek

ktfbgb said:


> Send me an email. [email protected]


sent email.


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## brandonh98

areoseek said:


> sent email.


I sent you an email too! lol


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## MSsnowplowing

This is the hold harmless I use if I ever do flag downs or calls. I print out 10 of them and put them in my case in the truck.


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## kawasaki guy

FredG said:


> That's fair enough because your not a :terribletowel:If the guy looked like a :terribletowel:cowboy I would think twice. Topsoil and seed are not cheap any more. Contractor grade seed something that will actually grow are about $75.00 over here plus the topsoil. Not sure on the weight looks like 80lb bag of salt.


As someone who buys and spreads lots of seed, the good Teammates Plus TTFF/KBG/rye mix from Lesco/John Deere Landscapes/Siteone (whatever it is called now) is $90/bag, and pete moss is $13/bag.


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## Jacobmb

Client must leave payment in sealed envelope in their mailbox and text or email us to confirm it is there. We get to it if we are nearby during the storm but no guarantee it will be done until after the storm is over and all seasonal contracts are taken care of.


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## KurtyKsSnow

We typically dont take anymore accounts during large snowfalls unless we are finished with our primary customers. We have 120 accounts for this winter, its nothing to get 300 extra calls during a major snow event. If i take any prices double or triple depends the mood im in.


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## andersman02

None of our trucks are marked, so usually any one timers are summer customers. If its before the storm and in a route, price is usually 10-15$ more and gets done in route. If its out of route its at the end of the day. Non summer customers/flag downs are usually 50% more, depending on the kind of mood im in. Honestly I dont make them sign anything, But am very clear that we will not be liable for ANY damages, any. Might have to start bringing a waiver with me. payment upfront or no dice.


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