# what to charge



## teamgreendude

Okay guys I have 2 of 4 big sites figured. 
Lot #1 is approximately 4,391 square yards
Lot #2 is approximately 1,704 square yards.
The question I have is how much should i charge to plow/salt these 2 lots? The 2 addresses are 3800 west 75th street, Prairie Village, KS, the second address is 11261 Nall Avenue, Leawood, KS. Enter it in google maps because I can't post a link.


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## swtiih

Approximately 1 hour of plowing + 800lbs of salt
1/2 hour of plowing + 300 lbs of salt


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## teamgreendude

swtiih;1264848 said:


> Approximately 1 hour of plowing + 800lbs of salt
> 1/2 hour of plowing + 300 lbs of salt


How much should I charge? I'll have the other 2 locations ready(I'm calculating the square footage as we speak) and have you google mapped both?


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## Mick76

Teamgreen, you've been on here since 08 and your asking how much to charge? Havn't you seen ALL the posts about this topic????......


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## Rc2505

Have you researched prices in your area? Do you know your costs? Have you used the search button on this site to see if anyone else has asked this question? I can't tell you what to charge, I live in Ohio, you live in Chicago. To tell you the truth, if there is a guy that plow the lot next to you, his charges might be different than yours, for the fact that no two companies are going to have the exact same cost base. Do some homework and price the jobs yourself.


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## dayexco

teamgreendude;1264809 said:


> Okay guys I have 2 of 4 big sites figured.
> Lot #1 is approximately 4,391 square yards
> Lot #2 is approximately 1,704 square yards.
> The question I have is how much should i charge to plow/salt these 2 lots? The 2 addresses are 3800 west 75th street, Prairie Village, KS, the second address is 11261 Nall Avenue, Leawood, KS. Enter it in google maps because I can't post a link.


personally, i'd charge per occurrence

lot #1.....$1936.44 no salt for up to 6" of snow, and $193.00 for each additional inch.

lot #2.....$855.22 no salt for up to 6" of snow, and $85.00 for each additional inch.


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## teamgreendude

Mick76;1264990 said:


> Teamgreen, you've been on here since 08 and your asking how much to charge? Havn't you seen ALL the posts about this topic????......


I've been doing commercial sidewalks for the past few years and these are the first few lots I'm going to plowing on my own. Btw I'm a pictures form guy I'm also going to buy a new 8' or 9' boss v-xt plow and maybe a skid steer to, the one I'm looking at is a 1993 new Holland l785 with 5,374 hours on it. Is that to much ?
Thanks,
James


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## CGM Inc.

teamgreendude;1265275 said:


> I've been doing commercial sidewalks for the past few years and these are the first few lots I'm going to plowing on my own. Btw I'm a pictures form guy I'm also going to buy a new 8' or 9' boss v-xt plow and maybe a skid steer to, the one I'm looking at is a 1993 new Holland l785 with 5,374 hours on it. Is that to much ?
> Thanks,
> James


I wouldn't buy a machine with 5,374 hours on it!


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## teamgreendude

Cedar Grounds;1265277 said:


> I wouldn't buy a machine with 5,374 hours on it!


I'm just trying to find a decent new holland l783-l785 but most of them were beat to hell, but i don't want to sink $15,000-$30,000 into another debt payment. So i'm just looking at ones from the l-783 to the lx865 or something like that.


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## swtiih

Cedar Grounds;1265277 said:


> I wouldn't buy a machine with 5,374 hours on it!


I would agree, hours and age to much for me.


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## CGM Inc.

teamgreendude;1265288 said:


> I'm just trying to find a decent new holland l783-l785 but most of them were beat to hell, but i don't want to sink $15,000-$30,000 into another debt payment. So i'm just looking at ones from the l-783 to the lx865 or something like that.


I understand but that is a lot of hours! 2,500 at the most if you want a reliable machine and get a couple more years out of it.


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## teamgreendude

Cedar Grounds;1265392 said:


> I understand but that is a lot of hours! 2,500 at the most if you want a reliable machine and get a couple more years out of it.


Yea I just emailed a dealer who has one with 2,150 hours, I'll wait to see what he says on it. I also found photos of the last 2 sites so tell me what you think.
Site #3 5811 Northwest Barry Road, Kansas City, MO

Site #4 4741 South Arrowhead Drive, Independence, MO
Also does anyone know how to post these from google Images ? Also these two sites need prices for both plowing and salting.


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## got-h2o

Not everyone can buy the nicest newest stuff. A 93 with 5k hours is actually low hours for the age. Not saying it's a spring chicken, but I'm sure the price reflects it. 5k hours does not mean it's gonna die tomorrow. I know of machines with 30-40k hours and they're still ticking.

2,500 hours tops??? Really!!?!? Nonesense.


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## DodgeBlizzard

You mean this one?


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## DodgeBlizzard




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## DodgeBlizzard




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## DodgeBlizzard

Hope this helps.


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## teamgreendude

DodgeBlizzard;1266471 said:


> Hope this helps.


Crap it looks like photo bucket deleted them for some dumb reason.


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## dayexco

up to a 6" snow...you'd be safe at 20 cents a square foot without salt per occurence, hope this helps


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## DodgeBlizzard

I've done a lot of reading. I think that's the first I've ever seen anybody give square foot price to plow. Sure beats the typical ''you have to know your costs''. I like it.


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## DodgeBlizzard

It's late. I will try one pic again to help you out. Not sure if you have part or all of the included lot.


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## JDiepstra

dayexco;1266924 said:


> up to a 6" snow...you'd be safe at 20 cents a square foot without salt per occurence, hope this helps





DodgeBlizzard;1267120 said:


> I've done a lot of reading. I think that's the first I've ever seen anybody give square foot price to plow. Sure beats the typical ''you have to know your costs''. I like it.


OK somebody stop me here if I have my numbers mixed up......

I have a lot that is about 40,000 square feet that has a lot of islands and is a funny shape and has nooks and crannies etc and I can plow it in about an hour. At 20 cents per square feet I should charge $8,000 for this lot according to the 20 cents per square foot thing. 40,000 x .2 = 8,000

Another way to look at this would be that there are 57,600 square feet in a football field, including the end zones. So 57,600 x .2 = $11,520. You gonna charge 11 grand to plow a football field?

Just goes to show, don't believe anything you read on Plow Site.


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## JDiepstra

In my area I get about $100 an hour with a pick up truck. You should be able to plow an acre an hour. I can do that very easily, even with several tedious obstructions Your bigger lot is just under an acre. Salt in this area is priced almost the same as plowing.


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## DodgeBlizzard

JDiepstra;1267136 said:


> In my area I get about $100 an hour with a pick up truck. You should be able to plow an acre an hour. I can do that very easily, even with several tedious obstructions Your bigger lot is just under an acre. Salt in this area is priced almost the same as plowing.


So in your example $100 (per hour) divided by 43,560 = .0022956 or round up to .0023 is what you get per square foot. Now we're getting closer to reality. Do you measure and have a square foot price or just eyeball?

ps: Don't mean to hijack original post but trying to help him out.


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## JDiepstra

DodgeBlizzard;1267140 said:


> So in your example $100 (per hour) divided by 43,560 = .0022956 or round up to .0023 is what you get per square foot. Now we're getting closer to reality. Do you measure and have a square foot price or just eyeball?
> 
> ps: Don't mean to hijack original post but trying to help him out.


Sometimes I measure, sometimes I don't. I'm not the most organized guy in the world but I like to know square footage to help estimate time and how much salt will be needed, but it's not actually how I bid. I bid based on time. About $100 per hour is my ballpark. I could do an open acre in half an hour in ideal conditions. With a lot of obstructions, like islands and light poles and curbs to lift the snow over, it could take twice that. With the 18" of snow we got in one storm this year, it could be 2 hours.


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## JDiepstra

Also, just sayin', that 3800 lot looks like a real PITA so figure more than an hour average.


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## teamgreendude

DodgeBlizzard;1267120 said:


> I've done a lot of reading. I think that's the first I've ever seen anybody give square foot price to plow. Sure beats the typical ''you have to know your costs''. I like it.


The only reason I did do a bid is because i wanted to do better than the last company who did a terrible job plowing. So When they asked if I could submit a bid with the one I already submitted then I wanted to give the best accurate price possible.


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## teamgreendude

DodgeBlizzard;1267129 said:


> It's late. I will try one pic again to help you out. Not sure if you have part or all of the included lot.


Just so everyone knows the 3800 lot of the small one to the right where it lists the adress ans street name. Dodgeblizzard thanks for helping with the picture buddy:salute:


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## got-h2o

Ya as it was said, everywhere is different, so its tough giving a "per sq ft" price for anything. Estimate your time for smaller lots like that and go from there. Once you get a few under your belt it's a lot easier to figure out bigger or smaller ones in the future. 

At $.20 per sq ft my large account would be around $120k per push minus salt. I'd say that's a bit over the top Lol. I'd already have been a multi millionaire this season!


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## dayexco

JDiepstra;1267131 said:


> OK somebody stop me here if I have my numbers mixed up......
> 
> I have a lot that is about 40,000 square feet that has a lot of islands and is a funny shape and has nooks and crannies etc and I can plow it in about an hour. At 20 cents per square feet I should charge $8,000 for this lot according to the 20 cents per square foot thing. 40,000 x .2 = 8,000
> 
> Another way to look at this would be that there are 57,600 square feet in a football field, including the end zones. So 57,600 x .2 = $11,520. You gonna charge 11 grand to plow a football field?
> 
> Just goes to show, don't believe anything you read on Plow Site.


well, he asked how much to charge, so i just gave him numbers of what i'd have to charge. he's in kansas, i'm in south dakota...were i to do it, i'd have to charter a plane each snow fall to get there and back, have a 2nd line of equipment either purchased or leased for kansas, employees, and support equipment. plus, i'd have to hire somebody to replace me here while i was gone if needed, hotels, food, etc. i truly don't feel my numbers are that far out of line. that's what i'd charge. as to what HE should charge...i have no clue, i have NO idea as to his cost of operation. and unless the rest of you have looked at his financials, desires for profit....you can't give him a legitimate answer either.


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## JDiepstra

dayexco;1267384 said:


> well, he asked how much to charge, so i just gave him numbers of what i'd have to charge. he's in kansas, i'm in south dakota...were i to do it, i'd have to charter a plane each snow fall to get there and back, have a 2nd line of equipment either purchased or leased for kansas, employees, and support equipment. plus, i'd have to hire somebody to replace me here while i was gone if needed, hotels, food, etc. i truly don't feel my numbers are that far out of line. that's what i'd charge. as to what HE should charge...i have no clue, i have NO idea as to his cost of operation. and unless the rest of you have looked at his financials, desires for profit....you can't give him a legitimate answer either.


OK man look, this is the "Bidding & Estimating Forum". If you're not going to be helpful (which you aren't) and are just going to be a tool (which you are), don't post anything. This site has way too many complete idiots.


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## dayexco

i wholeheartedly agree, and were you serious in assisting him...you'd give him the tools to help him establish his own costs...instead of being a blowhole and giving him numbers that may or may NOT fit into the scope of his operation. calling me an idiot? looks like you were let out of the corner a touch too early while you were wearing the pointy hat dude.


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## JDiepstra

dayexco;1267399 said:


> i wholeheartedly agree, and were you serious in assisting him...you'd give him the tools to help him establish his own costs...instead of being a blowhole and giving him numbers that may or may NOT fit into the scope of his operation. calling me an idiot? looks like you were let out of the corner a touch too early while you were wearing the pointy hat dude.


If he can't make my numbers work, he shouldnt be plowing. You on the other hand, shouldn't be posting.


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## dayexco

well WHY didn't you TELL me up front you knew what his costs were? that changes the WHOLE story! and you're right, this IS the bidding and estimating section of the forum. funny, i didn't see anywhere in the title... "this is where we tell you what to charge". you know, with your abilities to pull out numbers like that, you are truly wasting your time plowing, your services would reward you considerably greater just telling people what to charge and not turn a wheel!. by the way, i'm bidding the site piping on a new national guard armory next week, how much should i charge? i can post an aerial view if it'd help.


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## JDiepstra

dayexco;1267405 said:


> well WHY didn't you TELL me up front you knew what his costs were? that changes the WHOLE story! and you're right, this IS the bidding and estimating section of the forum. funny, i didn't see anywhere in the title... "this is where we tell you what to charge". you know, with your abilities to pull out numbers like that, you are truly wasting your time plowing, your services would reward you considerably greater just telling people what to charge and not turn a wheel!. by the way, i'm bidding the site piping on a new national guard armory next week, how much should i charge? i can post an aerial view if it'd help.


Help you with something? I wouldn't piss on ya if you were on fire!


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## JDiepstra

dayexco;1267405 said:


> well WHY didn't you TELL me up front you knew what his costs were? that changes the WHOLE story! and you're right, this IS the bidding and estimating section of the forum. funny, i didn't see anywhere in the title... "this is where we tell you what to charge". you know, with your abilities to pull out numbers like that, you are truly wasting your time plowing, your services would reward you considerably greater just telling people what to charge and not turn a wheel!. by the way, i'm bidding the site piping on a new national guard armory next week, how much should i charge? i can post an aerial view if it'd help.


Also, please show me one post where I told him how much he should charge. Just one. You won't be able to. I told him how I charge. Keep digging genius.


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## dayexco

i'm dropping out of this thread. it's quite apparent that when you stumble to defend your position, you attack the person and not the issue. it's a very common tactic for those unable to justify themselves. i've looked back in your posts, and i saw a lot of "this is what i get", but little of assisting him in how to price/value his work. have fun, and educate away!!!


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## JDiepstra

dayexco;1267422 said:


> i'm dropping out of this thread. it's quite apparent that when you stumble to defend your position, you attack the person and not the issue. it's a very common tactic for those unable to justify themselves. i've looked back in your posts, and i saw a lot of "this is what i get", but little of assisting him in how to price/value his work. have fun, and educate away!!!


So what you are saying is that you are unable to post any examples of me doing what you said I was doing? I see. Thanks for admitting you lose.


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## dayexco

JDiepstra;1267136 said:


> *In my area I get about $100 an hour with a pick up truck.* You should be able to plow an acre an hour. I can do that very easily, even with several tedious obstructions Your bigger lot is just under an acre. Salt in this area is priced almost the same as plowing.


your own post is fairly undeniable, and i would consider this giving him numbers...which if you'd read my prior posts, is what i alluded to there's no mention that i accused you of telling him what to charge ...brush up on your comprehension skills my son


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## DodgeBlizzard

This reminds me of the 13 year old female drama my kids bring home from school. Either help the guy out or don't. Unless someone is bidding on the same project, what would it hurt to offer him a price or an approximate number? I'm sure every number would be different but that's what makes it interesting. Maybe the original poster will bid using the highest number. Or maybe he will use the low or use an average. The idea of this forum is to help and be helped.


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## JDiepstra

dayexco;1267405 said:


> well WHY didn't you TELL me up front you knew what his costs were? that changes the WHOLE story! and you're right, this IS the bidding and estimating section of the forum. funny, i didn't see anywhere in the title... "this is where we tell you what to charge". you know, with your abilities to pull out numbers like that, you are truly wasting your time plowing, your services would reward you considerably greater just telling people what to charge and not turn a wheel!. by the way, i'm bidding the site piping on a new national guard armory next week, how much should i charge? i can post an aerial view if it'd help.





dayexco;1267434 said:


> your own post is fairly undeniable, and i would consider this giving him numbers...which if you'd read my prior posts, is what i alluded to there's no mention that i accused you of telling him what to charge ...brush up on your comprehension skills my son


Looks like it's right here grandpa.


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## Matson Snow

JDiepstra;1267136 said:


> In my area I get about $100 an hour with a pick up truck. You should be able to plow an acre an hour. I can do that very easily, even with several tedious obstructions Your bigger lot is just under an acre. Salt in this area is priced almost the same as plowing.


West side of Michigan you are getting $100 an hour?????? .....I dont care what kind of Jack-up Dodge with Neon Running lights you are running.....There is No way you can Plow that lot in 1 Hour....But, I could be wrong with all those Mods you have done to your Truck i bet it Flys over that lot and just Blows the Snow off.....


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## JDiepstra

Matson Snow;1267461 said:


> West side of Michigan you are getting $100 an hour?????? .....I dont care what kind of Jack-up Dodge with Neon Running lights you are running.....There is No way you can Plow that lot in 1 Hour....But, I could be wrong with all those Mods you have done to your Truck i bet it Flys over that lot and just Blows the Snow off.....


It appears you may be mistaking that entire picture as the lot. It is my understanding that that is not the case. Also, if you have ever plowed before, you should be able to tell that that picture is a lot more lot than 40,000 square feet of parking lot. It looks to me like that picture covers about 4 different lots, based on 4 separate buildings...

If you can't get $100 per hour, you're plowing the wrong accounts or simply just not charging what we should be as an "industry". When I spend a half hour on a parking lot for only $50ish, I feel like I am shorting myself, because I know I can easily get $25 to do a driveway in 5 minutes. That works out to about what, $375 an hour if there was no drive time inbetween.

For the record, I have a magnet mount dual strobe light from Tractor Supply on my roof and that's it. No neon Thumbs Up


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## dayexco

JDiepstra;1267454 said:


> Looks like it's right here grandpa.


once more, it's obvious you lack in comprehension skills. why didn't you bolden and color red the few words ahead of that? you know, this....*i didn't see anywhere in the title.*. this is not an accusation grasshopper.


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## JDiepstra

dayexco;1267422 said:


> i'm dropping out of this thread.
> 
> i've looked back in your posts, and i saw a lot of "this is what i get", but little of assisting him in how to price/value his work. !





dayexco;1267384 said:


> well, he asked how much to charge, so i just gave him numbers of what i'd have to charge.





dayexco;1267473 said:


> once more, it's obvious you lack in comprehension skills. why didn't you bolden and color red the few words ahead of that? you know, this....*i didn't see anywhere in the title.*. this is not an accusation grasshopper.


I thought you were dropping out of the thread? Obviously not a man of your word.

So you are giving me a hard time about telling him what I get for work? I quote you where you said the exact thing. The difference is, your numbers were absurd, so then you made up some lame story to try to cover up the fact that you can't do simple math. Again, if your not going to be helpful, why post?


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## JDiepstra

dayexco;1266924 said:


> up to a 6" snow...you'd be safe at 20 cents a square foot without salt per occurence, hope this helps


Also, your argument doesn't hold water. Right here you tell him he'd be safe at 20 cents a square foot. Really? I thought you said you were telling him how much YOU would charge to to the job..... Man you just can't keep your story straight can you?


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## dayexco

JDiepstra;1267483 said:


> I thought you were dropping out of the thread? Obviously not a man of your word.
> 
> So you are giving me a hard time about telling him what I get for work? I quote you where you said the exact thing. The difference is, your numbers were absurd, so then you made up some lame story to try to cover up the fact that you can't do simple math. Again, if your not going to be helpful, why post?


i've been plowing for over 30 yrs....i knew very well what i was doing when i said 20 cents per sq ft. my math works out very well, it's just you have a terrible problem with comprehension, and satire as it so appears.

anyway, what's the old saying about wrestling with a pig in the mud? you seem to be enjoying this much too well


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## John Mac

Wow, that was a fun read! 

I think Day was trying to say "don't ask us how to run your business" with out saying "don't ask us how to run your business". 

I agree, questions like "how much I should charge" or "how much did you pay for that" are not appropriate on any forum. 

I don't ask those types of question face to face with friends over a beer. 

It appears that on an anonymous forum it is acceptable to some to do so from complete strangers.


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## Surfer_Nick

FWIW...but $0.20/sf is a bit excessive, as we all know. While on this subject of rates/sf, I've been thinking of a realistic fair price to charge. Driveways are much easier to figure out so we'll use that as our example here. So driveway A is 75 feet long and 10 feet wide. Near the house the driveway widens to 20 feet for parking. Its about 15 feet back as the driveway tapers to 10 feet. The overall sf I calculate is 900sf+/-. At a rate of $0.05/sf, that driveway yields a paycheck of $45. As we know, pricing has many variables, so that may be high for some, but too little for others. The purpose of this is to demonstrate a baseline for those interested in quoting by the sf. For me, $0.05/sf seems quite on par for my region. Tweak that how you may and good luck!


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## ryde307

I use sq ft pricing and estimated time pricing bounced off eachother to come up with a real price. I then multiply that by a pain in the a$$ factor, how close it is to other sites, will I need more equipment or can I cover with what I have, and so on and so on.

I think sq ft will get you a decent starting point. But you have to have that broke down further with size groupings. Because you get .05 a sq ft for a driveway that is not a sq ft price for a 200,000 sq ft parking lot.


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## teamgreendude

well I thought I'd better update this, the head doctors son lowballed me and charged $500 less then what I bid on. For now I'm going to walk away that is until they call me in to cleanup this sh!t heads mess !!!! On the bright side though I've aquired the landscape contract which would put me at enough work to start a crew finally. Thanks for your help guys this site is a gold mine of information.
Thanks,
James:salute:


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## Surfer_Nick

ryde307;1299092 said:


> I use sq ft pricing and estimated time pricing bounced off eachother to come up with a real price. I then multiply that by a pain in the a$$ factor, how close it is to other sites, will I need more equipment or can I cover with what I have, and so on and so on.
> 
> I think sq ft will get you a decent starting point. But you have to have that broke down further with size groupings. Because you get .05 a sq ft for a driveway that is not a sq ft price for a 200,000 sq ft parking lot.


Couldn't agree more...$0.05 is where I usually guage my starting point at for driveways specifically. No way would anyone pay that rate for a multi-acre parking lot. Many variables to play with but at 5 cents/sf, it's in the ballpark and makes sense to do if stars align...nothing is worse than getting a random guy taking over one of your accounts cuz he undercut your pricing just to get the job...far too many guys lowball and it hurts the "industry" as a whole...if 0nly we lived in an ideal world!


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## Lawn man

Sorry for waking a dead thred. I am new to the forum and I am having a hard time figuring out what I should charge for this commercial lot. I am experienced in residential snow removal and lawn mowing but this will be my first commercial experience. The lot is located in KS and I figured by now my neighboor from leawood would have some advice. Any advice would be great.

http://www.mapquest.com/print?a=app.core.c5ace97db00e145dcb3af5ea


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## Lawn man

I guess the link did not work but it has1400 feet of sidewalk and 140,000 square feet of parking lot with about 20 islands.


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## Meezer

Try starting a thread in the "New to the Industry Forum".


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## crete5245

Here is another thing... your first two sites in the Johnson county area is close by, but the ones out by the ballparks is a long travel in a snow storm. I live in the kansas city area, would not travel that far to push snow, especially with the last two big storms we have had here in the KC area. Just my two cents... 

Jo. has plenty of work I would stay in that area and get as many account that are close to those two in the Jo. area.


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