# Please help with general plowing questions



## cgrizzle3929 (Oct 13, 2016)

I bought a lawn and landscaping company and now I won a bid for a condo and high rise apartment. The total square ft is 169000. I do not have to do the sidewalks only plowing and salting. I quoted 1 to 4 inches at 500 per and 4 to 8 at 975 salting 425. My question is with my bid I do not know what trigger they want. So how does this whole thing work? If it's 2 inch trigger I come out at 2 inches and plow but if it's a storm and I have to repeat do I charge every time? Or do I only charge say my 4 to 8 price if we get 6 inches even if I plow 3 times. I'm not sure how it works I just had some connections to know what they wanted to see. I have not owed before but understand how to do it and can learn quickly. I have 3 trucks I can run. I still need to buy a big Salter which I've figured I will spread about 2 yards per salt. I have 2500hd trucks. I figured I can only put about 2500 pounds total in the beds is that right? Or could I do more? Also after they officially accept the bid what next? Do I ask them exactly what they are looking for as far as the contract goes? Or do I wrote a contract based on what I want to do? Such as, shoveling cars out? Thanks everyone for your insight


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## Toxic (Oct 16, 2007)

How in the world does one go about submitting a bid and "winning" it if you have no idea what the scope of work consists of!??


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## cgrizzle3929 (Oct 13, 2016)

Toxic said:


> How in the world does one go about submitting a bid and "winning" it if you have no idea what the scope of work consists of!??


I don't know should I sit on my ass and not work in the winter like half of America because I am not a seasoned veteran? Also, how do you get experience withlut doing? I bet you would've said the same thing if I told you I had no idea what I was doing when I bought the company this year, but guess what? I turned the unprofitable company around, learned real quick what to do and what not to do, and made a significant amount of money. Enough so to buy a new pair truck and a plow and a brand new mower and lots of other stuff.


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## cgrizzle3929 (Oct 13, 2016)

Plow*


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## cgrizzle3929 (Oct 13, 2016)

cgrizzle3929 said:


> I don't know should I sit on my ass and not work in the winter like half of America because I am not a seasoned veteran? Also, how do you get experience withlut doing? I bet you would've said the same thing if I told you I had no idea what I was doing when I bought the company this year, but guess what? I turned the unprofitable company around, learned real quick what to do and what not to do, and made a significant amount of money. Enough so to buy a new pair truck and a plow and a brand new mower and lots of other stuff.





cgrizzle3929 said:


> I don't know should I sit on my ass and not work in the winter like half of America because I am not a seasoned veteran? Also, how do you get experience withlut doing? I bet you would've said the same thing if I told you I had no idea what I was doing when I bought the company this year, but guess what? I turned the unprofitable company around, learned real quick what to do and what not to do, and made a significant amount of money. Enough so to buy a new pair truck and a plow and a brand new mower and lots of other stuff.


But I guess I could've sat at home and cried about it like you would.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

Wow, these are all questions that should have been answered before you ever even considered bidding on anything let alone giving a price.

1. I've never been good on sq ft but that seems like a heck of a lot of property to only get 500 dollars. for me if im running 3 trucks and only getting 500 dollars, it has to be done in an hour and a half. i run each truck at 110 an hour. 

2. You need to have a meeting with them to discuss there expectations and get a contract signed for liability. also restructure the wording on the increments because right now if it snows 4 inches you might charge 975 but they will say wait no its only gotta be 500. I would break them up into smaller increments. 1-2, 2.1-4, 4.1-6 and so on.

3. you would charge each trip as how much snow there is. if the first round you plow 6 inches and then the second round you plow 2 inches you charge for the two increment brackets theyre in. 

4. 2 yards at 425 dollars is low. i make 730 per trip where i only use about a yard and a little more.

5. the amount of weight you can fit in there is up to the trucks restrictions. your gvwr on a 2500 is most likely 9200. take the curb weight of the truck, the weight of the plow, weight of the salter and any extra weight you have in the truck and add all that up. now subtract the gvwr from that number and that is the amount of legal free weight you have left. for me, my truck with me in it my plow on and my salter it weighs around 7400 lbs and my gvwr is 10,400 because its a 1 ton. so i have 3000 lbs of payload that i can legally put in there. 

make sure when you make the contract you put in there you will return once during the day for cleanup of moved cars. if you dont make that very clear that youre only coming once, they will call every time a car moves.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

How old are you??...


Your in over your head...Get some experience under you belt before you tackle this...


BTW...Here's your first lesson...To be on the safe side bidding...Go with a 1000 pounds per acre on the salt...


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## cgrizzle3929 (Oct 13, 2016)

Defcon 5 said:


> How old are you??...
> 
> Your in over your head...Get some experience under you belt before you tackle this...
> 
> BTW...Here's your first lesson...To be on the safe side bidding...Go with a 1000 pounds per acre on the salt...


I'm 31. And wouldn't 1000 pounds per acre be about 2 yards?


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## cgrizzle3929 (Oct 13, 2016)

snowplower1 said:


> Wow, these are all questions that should have been answered before you ever even considered bidding on anything let alone giving a price.
> 
> 1. I've never been good on sq ft but that seems like a heck of a lot of property to only get 500 dollars. for me if im running 3 trucks and only getting 500 dollars, it has to be done in an hour and a half. i run each truck at 110 an hour.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all your advise. I realize it is a little low but I knew what the next closest bid was and it was only a little over that. I'm in Michigan and where I'm at is very poor here, I'm sure your market is higher. What do you pay for salt where you live? Also, I am going to put all kinds of things in the contract, this was just the bid. I am looking for a old dump truck to use as my salt truck.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

I've been there where you know the lowest bid and for future, it works out sometimes being the lowest but somebody else could have absolutely no idea what they are doing and are just bidding super low to get the job and if you went even lower you could end up in serious trouble middle of the year. 

i pay 97 a ton but i pick up from a supplier. one day i'll break down and build a salt bin because i'll be able to get salt for around 70 a ton then

dump truck may be over kill. You could just buy 2 one yard ploy hopper saltdogg spreaders and put them in two of your trucks. they're only like 3k or less. 2 guys can pick it up and put it in and out of the truck.


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## cgrizzle3929 (Oct 13, 2016)

snowplower1 said:


> I've been there where you know the lowest bid and for future, it works out sometimes being the lowest but somebody else could have absolutely no idea what they are doing and are just bidding super low to get the job and if you went even lower you could end up in serious trouble middle of the year.
> 
> i pay 97 a ton but i pick up from a supplier. one day i'll break down and build a salt bin because i'll be able to get salt for around 70 a ton then
> 
> dump truck may be over kill. You could just buy 2 one yard ploy hopper saltdogg spreaders and put them in two of your trucks. they're only like 3k or less. 2 guys can pick it up and put it in and out of the truck.


that would be cool and I have a snowdogg 810


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

dont know much about snowdogg. I have began making the switch to all boss from western. i have 3 boss plows now and waiting on buying a new truck to put on the new boss ext. i would recommend boss for your future plows or even western or fisher. those are the three around here all the big businesses use. boss salters are built to last. saltdogg salters are meant to be a cheaper buy, with cheaper parts. my saltdogg spinner motor when after 2 years. 400 for new motor or 500 for the whole spinner assembly.


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## reedo (Jan 2, 2014)

There is 43,560sq.ft/Acre. That site is about 4 acres. A 3/4 ton truck will have its hands full with a plow and a loaded spreader. Definitely recommend going with a one ton truck for a 2 yard spreader. You are right, you will never learn without experience. Just keep one thing in mind and value your work. Undercutting someone else's bid to get work without knowing your operating costs is a good way to die a slow painful death.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cgrizzle3929 said:


> I'm 31. And wouldn't 1000 pounds per acre be about 2 yards?


Oi vey.......


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Oi vey.......


:laugh::laughing::laugh::laughing:


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## cgrizzle3929 (Oct 13, 2016)

reedo said:


> There is 43,560sq.ft/Acre. That site is about 4 acres. A 3/4 ton truck will have its hands full with a plow and a loaded spreader. Definitely recommend going with a one ton truck for a 2 yard spreader. You are right, you will never learn without experience. Just keep one thing in mind and value your work. Undercutting someone else's bid to get work without knowing your operating costs is a good way to die a slow painful death.


Thank you for that. Luckily if it goes south Im not dependant on the money. The experience of giving the quote and doing the job will be very beneficial for me. If I can make money that will be a huge bonus.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

cgrizzle3929 said:


> Thank you for that. Luckily if it goes south Im not dependant on the money. The experience of giving the quote and doing the job will be very beneficial for me. If I can make money that will be a huge bonus.


So much wrong with that statement. Wouldn't even know where to begin


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

cgrizzle3929 said:


> Thank you for that. Luckily if it goes south Im not dependant on the money. The experience of giving the quote and doing the job will be very beneficial for me. If I can make money that will be a huge bonus.


Are you serious???....Thats my business motto...If it goes south...Oh Well...If you are not a troll...you have no business doing this...You don't have a clue...


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

cgrizzle3929 said:


> Thank you for that. Luckily if it goes south Im not dependant on the money. The experience of giving the quote and doing the job will be very beneficial for me. If I can make money that will be a huge bonus.


 . . If your not dependant on the money why do it? Just sub it out instead.......fyi......Your not going to make money this year at all.


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## Toxic (Oct 16, 2007)

cgrizzle3929 said:


> But I guess I could've sat at home and cried about it like you would.


Well, you certainly handled that like a professional...
Congratulations on being such an outstanding entrepreneur, I look forward to reading about your tremendous success in Forbes magazine.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cgrizzle3929 said:


> I don't know should I sit on my ass and not work in the winter like half of America because I am not a seasoned veteran? Also, how do you get experience withlut doing? I bet you would've said the same thing if I told you I had no idea what I was doing when I bought the company this year, but guess what? I turned the unprofitable company around, learned real quick what to do and what not to do, and made a significant amount of money. Enough so to buy a new pair truck and a plow and a brand new mower and lots of other stuff.


Cheif... when someone asks you a question that... well... is to be honest the same thing that all of us are thinking, don't jump his ****, and talk about how much money you are making... you will find yourself getting no help on this site.

Just saying...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cgrizzle3929 said:


> I don't know should I sit on my ass and not work in the winter like half of America because I am not a seasoned veteran? Also, how do you get experience withlut doing? I bet you would've said the same thing if I told you I had no idea what I was doing when I bought the company this year, but guess what? I turned the unprofitable company around, learned real quick what to do and what not to do, and made a significant amount of money. Enough so to buy a new pair truck and a plow and a brand new mower and lots of other stuff.


Defcon axed already, but I am going to axe again.

Are you absolutely serious or are you just a troll?

There are so many things wrong in just aboot every post, I don't know where to start.

Tell you what, I'll start with an easy one.

1,000# of salt does not equal 2 yards.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> 1,000# of salt does not equal 2 yards.


Do you guys actually measure salt in the unit of yards???

Always done tons personally but IDK, maybe different areas of world measure different?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> Do you guys actually measure salt in the unit of yards???
> 
> Always done tons personally but IDK, maybe different areas of world measure different?


Some places around Metro Detoilet sell by the yard...Mainly because they don't have a scale...Most do by the Tonne...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> Do you guys actually measure salt in the unit of yards???
> 
> Always done tons personally but IDK, maybe different areas of world measure different?


No, but for general reference I know the average weight of a yard of salt.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> No, but for general reference I know the average weight of a yard of salt.


You do???...Amazing


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes said:


> No, but for general reference I know the average weight of a yard of salt.


African or European salt?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Red. No, blue! Aaaaaaahhhhhhhh


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

SnoFarmer said:


> African or European salt?


Ethiopia.....:hammerhead:


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Let me be blunt with you.

You put a bid in without knowing what the scope of work is that you have to do, that is plain stupid. 

Then you come here and ask for help and get snarky when guys point this out.

As for telling you how to do it, WE CAN'T because you don't know the scope of the work enough to post it, so asking for that means we would have to assume things.

But let's assume for a moment.

Your bid of $500 dollars for 1-4 inches means that up to 4 inches of snow the client gets charged $500 dollars for plowing.

As for the plowing aspect, guess what, it doesn't matter how many times you go there and plow you can only charge them $500 for that 1-4 and then $975 for 4-8.

I hope you have put in numbers for more than 8" of snow, what happens if you get a blizzard and get 14 inches of snow, what do you charge?
How about 9-12 inches? 

What about extra salting?
What happens if it is a ice storm?
Your putting down extra salt for those so your price should be a bit higher than a regular salting. 

What about melt off conditions?
What happens if snow melts and slides off the roof of the condos into the parking area's or roads?

What about people cleaning their cars off after you have plowed and cleaned areas there?

And several more questions that can be asked and all that would be covered in the Scope of the work to be done that you know nothing about, yet you still placed a bid in.

All these factors means your pricing should reflect that.

Moving on:

You better hope the trigger is not 1 inch otherwise your sitting on that property from the one inch mark and plowing it till storm end for only $500 dollars.

If it's a 2" inch trigger that means you are going there every 2 inches to plow.
So you get a 4 inch storm your going there twice.
6" 3 times and so on for every 2"'s.

If it's a 4" trigger then you are in for a longer time to plow that and more chances of slip and falls, packed snow from cars driving in and out, etc... 
Pretty much no one would do a 4" trigger for a place like that, standard would be a 2 to 3 inch only.

By the way do you know how long it will take to plow that property? 

Rough est is about 45 minutes to 1 hour to plow 1 acre and if there is a lot of curbing and cut's and back blading that time could go up.

So at a rough average your looking at around 3 hours to plow that place out with one truck if it's straight forward, if you use two trucks you might be able to cut that down to 1 1/2 hours depends on the layout.

since it's a condo your also dealing with cars, oh did you figure your pricing in for having to come back and do a clean up? 

I mean say the storm ends at 1am in the morning, people are not going to come out and move their cars so your going to have to come back in the morning and do a clean up.

Now do you see why guys are coming down on you for not knowing the scope of work.

There are many factors to consider when placing a bid and you just jumped in without knowing anything at all and are now trying to play catch up. 

This stands out about what you posted:
"Also after they officially accept the bid what next? Do I ask them exactly what they are looking for as far as the contract goes?" 

I know every single person that has read that just shook their head in amazement.

You should have already discussed the scope of work to be done with them before you placed your bid. 

Why should you have done that? 
What happens if they come back and say we want this done and that done and all this done also, that is the scope of work you bid on.

You go "oh boy, well I have to increase my pricing to do all that work".

They are going to say "Wait a minute you already put it in writing that you will do all of this for $500 dollars for every 1-4 inches".

So your choice at this point is to suck it up and take the contract or back out and get a rep for not following thru on your bids. 

Either way a bad choice.

And that is why they are coming down on you.

Just My Two Cents.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

MSsnowplowing said:


> So at a rough average your looking at around 3 hours to plow that place out with one truck if it's straight forward, if you use two trucks you might be able to cut that down to 1 1/2 hours depends on the layout.


I may not know everyday\Chicago\common core math, but I'm pretty sure that 2 trucks for 1 1/2 hours is still 3 hours.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I may not know everyday\Chicago\common core math, but I'm pretty sure that 2 trucks for 1 1/2 hours is still 3 hours.


LOL, Yes your right. 
I should have been more clear.
What I was thinking and trying to express was while your still paying for that 3 hours of labor, you could cut the time down to 1 1/2 hours plowing the lot to move onto the next lot by putting in a second truck.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

MSsnowplowing said:


> LOL, Yes your right.
> I should have been more clear.
> What I was thinking and trying to express was while your still paying for that 3 hours of labor, you could cut the time down to 1 1/2 hours plowing the lot to move onto the next lot by putting in a second truck.


Yes, the Missouri way of plowing...........13 pieces of equipment to do a 1 acre lot so one can move on faster.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I may not know everyday\Chicago\common core math, but I'm pretty sure that 2 trucks for 1 1/2 hours is still 3 hours.


I don't think common core math is the Ops strong suit....

I'm thinking per push- per app. Would be the easiest solution to this complex situation...

It's a pretty easy concept to grasp. For most...Everytime you go in there and drop a blade you charge x amount...Same goes for salting..I know this concept is sometimes hard to grasp for the average plow monkey...But, I think simple is better in the Ops case


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm not really sure why there is even a 4-8" price. This is an aparment complex, open 24 hours, traffic 24 hours a day, it doesnt close. The snow should never even get that deep. If you get 8-9 inches you better be plowing 3 times and charge them 3 times. Its simple math.


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## zeroman (Nov 1, 2016)

After reading this post I think I have learned a lot of what not to do. I am new also, I like the price per push much easier. And you would not get locked into 500.00 for a storm of 8" or greater. 
Thanks for the great information I hope is snows this year.


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