# Alberta snow-removal contractors buried by skyrocketing insurance premiums



## E-Town (Mar 11, 2018)

An Alberta snow-removal contractor has been scrambling to dig himself out of a pricey insurance premium situation. 








Chris Jorgenson, owner of Canada Yard Pro, told Global News he was shocked when he got his latest renewal.

*"Last year we were paying $7,800," he said. "This year, we were getting quotes as high as $65,000."*

https://globalnews.ca/news/8260348/alberta-snow-removal-contractors-insurance-premiums/
OUCH OUCH OUCH!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

That's just crazy...you live in Kannada...it snows in the winter.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

There are instances that are stupid when you have a revenue based system. Alotof guys are getting out.
I noah guy that raised his prices substancially, lost some work and didnt add any. The revenue went up and since they base the premium on that number, up went his premium with less exposure to risk...


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Exactly why I gave up snow plowing . :angry:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm curious to what his new premium is, but even if it was fairly significant, say double, I couldn't/wouldn't absorb that.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Up 70%...


Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm curious to what his new premium is, but even if it was fairly significant, say double, I couldn't/wouldn't absorb that.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> Up 70%...


His new quotes were up to 70% higher, doesn't say that was what he agreed to with his current insurer, just that he got them to come down 30%. So did his carrier jump it 50% and came down 30%? 40%?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> There are instances that are stupid when you have a revenue based system. Alotof guys are getting out.
> I noah guy that raised his prices substancially, lost some work and didnt add any. The revenue went up and since they base the premium on that number, up went his premium with less exposure to risk...


Punctuation, spelling and proper spacing should always be practiced on the forum. Thank you.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Im gonna hide behind my handicap...


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

You still have the biggest # 1 finger in Erin .... ?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Hopin you can see it from Meaford....


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Another local contractor I know says he is done with snow plowing ...... because of extremely high Insurance rates . 


Mr.Markus said:


> Hopin you can see it from Meaford....


Hahaha .... you are almost getting as mean as me .


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Insurance rants are hard for me cause my wife is an insurance agent. the real problems arent the companies. They need to make money... Its the absurd cost associated with the legal and judgements, the insurance companies dont want snowplowing either its a big loser for them.
For every good guy doing his job there are 10 bad over sold ones that dont have the experience or means to take care of what they sold.
Throw in that everyone wants the lowest price and the equipped experienced ones lose out on sales, insurance claims are filed and everyone loses...
My demeanor IS going south. This infection has given me more time off than I ve had in 30 years...and the grass is growing like it never has in October.
Also hard to sell plowing while holding an IV pump...


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

Wow brother, that looks serious. Hope that I.V does the trick. 
I assume the dog has a new address?


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

My insurance broker 8 years ago told me at that time most Insurance Companies just paid slip and fall claims at 60,000.00 or less without any fight at all . When 1 person in a small town get a cheque for 60,000.00 they brag about it . Problem has only got worse.....


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

DeVries said:


> Wow brother, that looks serious. Hope that I.V does the trick.
> I assume the dog has a new address?


Yes...it was not my choice. The dog was 99% a great dog but no affection. I related to him quite well, he got me twice and a delivery guy (delivering my IV of all things once.) The guy reached to pet him and I tried to interupt him and bam.
He was good about it and loves huskies...
Hes in a no kill husky gromimg to become a sled dog penned up with other dogs where aggression moves you up the hierarchy... still Broke my heart.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> Im gonna hide behind my handicap...
> View attachment 222043


Sorry man, tough break. Hope you heal up!
Please learn to type with your other hand…


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mr.Markus said:


> Yes...it was not my choice. The dog was 99% a great dog but no affection. I related to him quite well, he got me twice and a delivery guy (delivering my IV of all things once.) The guy reached to pet him and I tried to interupt him and bam.
> He was good about it and loves huskies...
> Hes in a no kill husky gromimg to become a sled dog penned up with other dogs where aggression moves you up the hierarchy... still Broke my heart.


Sorry to hear, believe me, I truly like most dogs more than humans. But, you (your wife) did the right thing, the dog was destined to bite someone else and you were going to regret it. Our dog has some anxiety issues, and has gotten close to biting both my wife and I when we physically "push" him into doing something he doesn't want to do, but if he ever bit either of us, I'm pretty sure he'd be a goner as well. And, he's been with us since early 2011.............


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Mr.Markus said:


> Yes...it was not my choice. The dog was 99% a great dog but no affection. I related to him quite well, he got me twice and a delivery guy (delivering my IV of all things once.) The guy reached to pet him and I tried to interupt him and bam.
> He was good about it and loves huskies...
> Hes in a no kill husky gromimg to become a sled dog penned up with other dogs where aggression moves you up the hierarchy... still Broke my heart.


All things considered, sounds like the dog won the lottery. I hope you find some consolation in knowing he's getting a chance most (biting) dogs never will. Good on you.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

We went through this experience. Got hit with notice of "non-renewable". New quotes were 2-300% more.

At the end of the day, it forced to look really hard at what we were doing. Ended up going with the more expensive option, but that has paid dividends. Our rates have declined over the past few years due to a clean claims history, and now at about double where we left off with the old co.

However, we also discovered we were previously very under-insured. Our coverage was limited in ways that we were not comfortable with. Also, the insurance co. was very quick to settle, especially after discovery. This new company has much better coverage, tighter language, and denies frivolous claims very quickly. They will defend you, which is much more than what we could say of the previous provider. We've always kept accurate records, backed up by GPS, and that has helped immensely in keeping the current provider appeased if a situation does arise - and it does.

Hope you're feeling better soon Markus - and here I thought we were riding the struggle bus.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> Insurance rants are hard for me cause my wife is an insurance agent. the real problems arent the companies. They need to make money... Its the absurd cost associated with the legal and judgements, the insurance companies dont want snowplowing either its a big loser for them.
> For every good guy doing his job there are 10 bad over sold ones that dont have the experience or means to take care of what they sold.
> Throw in that everyone wants the lowest price and the equipped experienced ones lose out on sales, insurance claims are filed and everyone loses...
> My demeanor IS going south. This infection has given me more time off than I ve had in 30 years...and the grass is growing like it never has in October.
> Also hard to sell plowing while holding an IV pump...


Yes and no. The agent is not there to just make suggestions and collect commission. They are supposed to work for their commission. So in cases like these if the contractor is doing their job, the agent needs to go to bat for the contractor, not just say "Hey, your rates are jumping 70-300% and tough crap if you don't like it." They are the go between between the carrier and the contractor.

Why don't the carriers get off their butts and do something about the legal costs? If it's a loser for them, get tougher on the contractors to do the job properly. It isn't like snow is going away and plowing it won't be necessary. Instead of just settling, fight for their money. Hire cheaper lawyers.

Sorry, I hate insurance companies and to an extent my agent. Even though he is a really good guy and does go to bat for me whenever I need it.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Is it the insurance industry or the litigious society that grinders your gears

if we want things to change we need to change some laws and reinstate personal responsibility.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Yes


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Just talked to a Contractor from where I live about his Snowplowing . He runs 6 tractors with blades and blowers and 2 trucks . He does 90 % residential and his Insurance renewal just doubled with no claims . He says this winter might be his last .


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

SHAWZER said:


> Just talked to a Contractor from where I live about his Snowplowing . He runs 6 tractors with blades and blowers and 2 trucks . He does 90 % residential and his Insurance renewal just doubled with no claims . He says this winter might be his last .


School me on how a residential slip and fall claim works.... like say the contractor you were speaking with only provides snow blowing service but not de-icing.... is he liable if someone slips on ice and falls on a residential property even though he is not contracted to de-ice?


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## E-Town (Mar 11, 2018)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> School me on how a residential slip and fall claim works.... like say the contractor you were speaking with only provides snow blowing service but not de-icing.... is he liable if someone slips on ice and falls on a residential property even though he is not contracted to de-ice?


My old insurance told me straight up Residential clients that refuse ICE MELT to not take them as clients. They don't even recommend Salt they want ICE MELT or not covered with a big take this as a warning lol.

Thank god i left those Tyran Wawanessa with their 150% increase rates with NO CLAIM HERE EVER! LOL

Your best bet is to Talk to a Broker he will fight it for you. Last renewal the new company i use SMI gave me a discount this time.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

https://www.injurypartner.com/pi-ca...057e&msclkid=7e0f67f2ca651463df1a069a6a04057e


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> School me on how a residential slip and fall claim works.... like say the contractor you were speaking with only provides snow blowing service but not de-icing.... is he liable if someone slips on ice and falls on a residential property even though he is not contracted to de-ice?


My point was he has done almost all residential for the last 20 years because brokers - insurance companies always said residential insurance coverage was cheaper than commercial because of less foot traffic - liability ........ That has been changing the last few years . He does not salt Driveways


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

I cant say I blame any of you guys getting out after they jack the prices up like that. That's just insane and uncalled for.


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

I'm still confused why you would get out of the business because your rates rise. I can see if your contracts rise by the same and no one signs back on. But I've never had that happen to me, even after a large increase last year.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

DeVries said:


> I'm still confused why you would get out of the business because your rates rise. I can see if your contracts rise by the same and no one signs back on. But I've never had that happen to me, even after a large increase last year.


We're all just looking for a way out and its as good a reason as any...


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

5 years ago my Snow Insurance was about 10 % of my gross Snow income . Last year my Snow Insurance was 44 % of my gross Snow income . The last 3 very light winters combined with per push billing made me say time to get out . So I retired from snow 4 years earlier than I planned . I did mainly Commercial . Should add that 5 years ago I had 3 Loaders and 1 truck . Last year I had 1 Loader and 1truck .


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

SHAWZER said:


> Last year my Snow Insurance was 44 % of my gross Snow income .


Whoa! That is ridiculous. Unless you only plowed 2-3 times past couple winters which I kinda doubt. Assuming over 10 events at least per season

Just crunching numbers in my head my ins is waay less that 10% of gross snow income. And I still think it's too high.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

I plowed 20 times last winter which is less than half of what our average is for the last 10 years


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## zlssefi (Dec 29, 2011)

Just out of curiosity ..who are you guys using for snow insurance? I have my current agent working with 3 brokers to attain airport snow removal coverage. Ive also reached out to two independent companies for quotes.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

The other extreme is simply carry no insurance.

The attorneys sue whomever has the deepest pockets (most insurance).

if you have no insurance, they're not going to waste their time with a client suing someone with no insurance.

Overly simplistic, but true.

have a separate corporation own all of your equipment, and you just lease it from that Corp to run your operations. Then your equipment is protected from claims. 

all generally speaking, of course.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

That is generally false.

They will list both the business and the contractor in their lawsuit. 
just because you don’t have insurance doesn’t mean they can’t take your truck/car
Bank accounts ,college funds ,classic cars, your house ,your cabin ,future earnings retirement yada yada yada


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Hydromaster said:


> That is generally false.
> 
> They will list both the business and the contractor in their lawsuit.
> just because you don't have insurance doesn't mean they can't take your truck/car
> Bank accounts ,college funds ,classic cars, your house ,your cabin ,future earnings retirement yada yada yada


correct - they will sue everybody.

my point though is that they (the attorneys) are looking for quick snd easy cash, so they will focus on going after the ones that have the most insurance.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

True, but that falls short when they are not the ones who are liable.
+
Sometimes the insurance companies run up against a business that has a lawyer or is self insured. 
just because they’re well insured doesn’t mean they will roll over and pay.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I always had to show proof of insurance to commercial accounts.


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