# Need help, large commercial season contract inclusive



## Northsnow (Feb 10, 2009)

Hey everyone. i am new tothis site and been plowing for a coupl of years. Mostly residential and very small comercial. This year on christmas eve, A mgt co contacted me to take over a local ToysRus. worked outgreat on a per push/salt/shovel basis. Now they have said they have been extremly pleased with my service and want me to bid on some of theKohls stores. I identified 7 to bid on in a compact route. Problem is, it includes everything, plow, salt, all season, one price. tell me if this sounds good pricing or too low.

400 space lot with 2" trigger

Figure 15 pushes and 30 applications of salt at 1 ton an application.

my figured costs below
salt at 4500
labor at 3000 ( 1 operator in skidsteer 5 hours x 40 per hour x 15 storms)
machine lease 6000 (bobcat 285 to use 10 foot push box)
Fues and misc 1000
total cost 14500.00
season profit 10000.00
seasonal price 24500.00

1 " trigger i added about 5500.00 to that price.

I plan on buying a used large international or similar salter dedicated to salting a set route and can cover aprox 8 properties per route so labor should e minimal.

Does any of this make sense? Am I way off base and too cheap? I am also bidding on some large strip centers with Targets and Home Depots and will be bidding Tarets. It seems that buy dedicting a machine per store, and the lbor is pretty set, it should be pretty set. Or am i just an idiot and doing this all wrong? I want to make the changes, drop the res and go to commercial and grow each year.

thank you very much for any help or advice.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Some of your numbers are okay.

You have salt at $150 a ton which is pretty good.
Your fuel is pretty close.

You didn't ad insurance and plates for the international salt truck.
$40 per hour to pay an operator is high I think and I don't think you have enough hours bid in.

You are talking about 8 stores (1 you have + 7 new)
$20,000 a year is only $1,333 per storm based on 15 for plowing.
That is only $166 per lot per storm.
And you are only giving your self 5 hours to clean all 8 lots.

Salting is $4,500 with 30 applications = $150 per application. That is okay if you are only going to use 1 ton for 8 lots. I don't salt, but that seems low.

My thoughts are this:

I wouldn't plow a Toys-R-Us for $166. Is your current rate close to this? If so, maybe you are doing a great job, but you are also saving them ALOT of money.

If you are higher than this, then you could base your cost for the one T-R-U x 8 stores x 15 events and get a seasonal price that way.

Good Luck


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

QuadPlower;749789 said:


> Some of your numbers are okay.
> 
> You have salt at $150 a ton which is pretty good.
> Your fuel is pretty close.
> ...


I think the $24,500 is one store


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Dang, I think you're right. I thought it was a little crazy for 8 stores and 5 hours and $166 a push.

Then $1,333 per push is pretty good. Where are they at? I want to bid to.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Northsnow

The local Kohl is the same size you mentioned and went for $13,500 this winter for a Zero tolerance

Did they spec 1" or 2" triggers?


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## Northsnow (Feb 10, 2009)

they want a 1" and 2" trigger price. $13500 just seems risky. are my hours too high per store and salt too much. someone said with a skidsteer and pushbox, the time to clear should only be a couple of hours. that sound right. they also said 1/2 ton per salt application. that would drastically change numbers.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

cretebaby;749815 said:


> Northsnow
> 
> The local Kohl is the same size you mentioned and went for $13,500 this winter for a Zero tolerance
> 
> Did they spec 1" or 2" triggers?


You'd need your head checked to do it for that. The $24,500 seems reasonable enough but I can't really comment because I'm not in your area. Good luck though.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

good luck my friend


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Northsnow;749861 said:


> they want a 1" and 2" trigger price. $13500 just seems risky. are my hours too high per store and salt too much. someone said with a skidsteer and pushbox, the time to clear should only be a couple of hours. that sound right. they also said 1/2 ton per salt application. that would drastically change numbers.


Its hard for me to imagine a Kohls with a 2" trigger but whatever trips there trigger( ha ha )

JMO but 5 hours would be overkill I would say 2 would be a little shy with the 2" trigger

The $5500 (22%) upcharge for the 1" trigger might be a bit much since it will cut way down on the salt usage

The local Kohls is about 4 acres plus so 1 ton would be a good number to bid

My only question is do you think you will be there 15/30 times for a 2" trigger?

Do I dare ask what Maint Co?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

JD Dave;749865 said:


> You'd need your head checked to do it for that. The $24,500 seems reasonable enough but I can't really comment because I'm not in your area. Good luck though.


Agrred JD

But I would be tickled pink to do one for $24,500 even for a zero tolerance


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## Northsnow (Feb 10, 2009)

i was figuring worst case with the 15 / 30. I just dont want to get caught with my pants down. These seven Kohls stores are seasonal. I guess i can recover any decrease in profits due to a busy 09-10 seson with my t-r-u and b-r-u accounts. So does 30 per hour sound better for a skid operator? i want to find quality guys. In addition, if a couple of hours or a little more can cover alot, the other stores are about 100 yards away in many cases, they can double a property. so based on those new numbers on a two inch being only 13 events and 25 applications

equipement lease 6000.00
salt 3750.00
labor 1170.00 (3 x 30 ph x 13 events)
fuel and misc 1000.00
total cost 11920.00
markup 10000.00
seasonal contract 21920.00

and 1" trigger goe to 20 events and 40 applications
increase in labor 630.00 (3 x 30 x 7)
increase in salt 2250.00 (150 x 15)
total increase 2880.00
2"price 21920.00
1" price 24800.00


plus with multiple acounts with their very close proximity, i could share 1 machine per two stores if it works out that way to increase bottom lie. As for insurance, I am a general contractor and plowing will consist of less than 50% of our total revenue so my carrierr added it as a supplemental non primary business act as long as we do not exceed 1 mil in contracted work whih i never ever see happening. We already carry allthe commercial insurance and a 5 mil umbrella. the add cost to cover plowing was abou 350 per year. any other thoughts or comments.

I really do appreciate all opinions and thoughts, i will take all comments with great appreciation. thanks again. i wish we had a good message board for my main idustyr like this one.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Those figures might work, (per store) but what type of equipment will you use? From what I can tell, you need to increase the number of machines you will be using.


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

If you looking at leasing the equipment, would it make more sense to just buy outright 3 machines, 1 per two stores. Even if you looked for something bigger like a front loader, you could pick up an older used one for 15 to 20 thousand, and clear the lots even faster. Lock them into a 3 year contract, and buy something even newer, then spread the cost over the 3 year period. I think you could cut your numbers down to around 19,500 or so with a 1 inch trigger, and more like 17,500 or 18,000 for a 2 inch trigger using a loader instead of a skid steer. It would cut your hours in half with a 14 foot pusher on it. You might even be able to do 3 stores per loader and only have to buy two. Just look for a back up plan if one would break down.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

blowerman;749987 said:


> Those figures might work, (per store) but what type of equipment will you use? From what I can tell, you need to increase the number of machines you will be using.


I think hes figuring 1 bobcat for each store


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

cretebaby;750836 said:


> I think hes figuring 1 bobcat for each store


That's not going to work. Any snow over 2-3" and you're going to have trouble.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

blowerman;750899 said:


> That's not going to work. Any snow over 2-3" and you're going to have trouble.


1 dedicated skiddy isnt enough for a 4 acre lot?

What would you use on 4 acres?


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Around Milwaukee anybody with stores of size (Kohl's, Walmart, Target, etc) run wheel loaders. In small snows you can clear with skiddy's and trucks, but any snow of size and a simple drive around the block both you or I could tell who didn't have the right sized equipment. He's from IL, so it isn't like he doesn't get decent snow storms. What are the guys in E. Iowa using? I flew down to Omaha in our plane and noticed you had a decent amount of snow on the ground last week, so I would assume it can get heavy and deep.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

There is several sites that size done with one skidder around here

They typically plow with the storm and we dont get more than 1"/hr for an extended period of time so they dont have a problem

I dont know how you would make any money around here putting anymore iron on it than that


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

I get your point. We debate on PS the type of equipment that's needed all the time. 
Such as now, it hasn't snowed in over 4 weeks. I've watched guys use skiddys and barely clean the lot, let alone corner to corner. To sit on a wheel loader and watch it collect dust is not the easiest thing to do, but when it snows 3-4" of snow between 3 and 6 a.m with 1-2"/ hr. doing a good job becomes real tough without the proper iron..


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Rc2505;750050 said:


> If you looking at leasing the equipment, would it make more sense to just buy outright 3 machines, 1 per two stores. Even if you looked for something bigger like a front loader, you could pick up an older used one for 15 to 20 thousand, and clear the lots even faster. Lock them into a 3 year contract, and buy something even newer, then spread the cost over the 3 year period. I think you could cut your numbers down to around 19,500 or so with a 1 inch trigger, and more like 17,500 or 18,000 for a 2 inch trigger using a loader instead of a skid steer. It would cut your hours in half with a 14 foot pusher on it. You might even be able to do 3 stores per loader and only have to buy two. Just look for a back up plan if one would break down.


Why do 15-20k loaders breakdown, you think for that kind of money they never would.


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

Well around here a 15 to 20 thousand dollar loader is going to buy you a mid 90's loader. Figuring a mid 90's loader is going to have a few thousand hours on them, and the pins and bushings will be somewhat worn, maybe a small hydrolic leak turns into a big one pretty quickly. Who knows, maybe it gets cold enough to freeze up or something. Anything can happen and a back up plan is a must in case it does happen. Specially if he goes with 1 loader per 3 lots. a 2 or 3 hour breakdown, and it will be hell to catch up. I am not suggesting he buy an extra loader and have it just sitting around, but at least know where to get a back up piece of equipment that will still be large enough to use the same pusher in case it does.


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

Rc2505;751205 said:


> Well around here a 15 to 20 thousand dollar loader is going to buy you a mid 90's loader. Figuring a mid 90's loader is going to have a few thousand hours on them, and the pins and bushings will be somewhat worn, maybe a small hydrolic leak turns into a big one pretty quickly. Who knows, maybe it gets cold enough to freeze up or something. Anything can happen and a back up plan is a must in case it does happen. Specially if he goes with 1 loader per 3 lots. a 2 or 3 hour breakdown, and it will be hell to catch up. I am not suggesting he buy an extra loader and have it just sitting around, but at least know where to get a back up piece of equipment that will still be large enough to use the same pusher in case it does.


I agree. This is something many people overlook. I don't run loaders or skid steeres yet, but I've had trucks break down. You want to have a good alternative. I learned that.


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## Northsnow (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for all the input guys>many of you have give me great points to ponder. My intentionwas to put 1 skid per site. In addition, the salt trucks will be equipped with a large plow. there are two salt/plow trucks. one per area. I am focusing on two concentrated areas where most all locations in each area will be within 5 miles of a center point, most swtores within a block or so. the salt/ plow trucks will be assisting the skid steers with large cleanup. I also will have three F250 with 8.5 pro plow and spreaders that are used on smallerr locations assisting on the large commercial till the storm is over. all other accounts are scheduled within a time frame after storm completion.

My only hope is that is we land other retail stores within yards or blocks, should i place equip on those lots also or schedule locations based on opening times and let equip rotate between a couple of stores. There is a company that does two large strip location on each side of my one toys r us and they do it with 3 beat to hell plow trucks, one is a suburban from the war it looks like. then they sed in a salter after the storm. 

Just to update, i did submit bids today for the seven kohls locatons priced between 18000 and 2400 for 2" and 22000 and 29000 for 1" based on size and desire to get certain locations. Once i know what properties i land,if any, i plan on targeting other stores in close proximity to the se locations. Any reccomendations on when to approach other locations/stores? Should i be working on getting in to bid now? 

Thanks again for the help everyone, it is really appreciated!

One other thing, will a bocat 285 handle a 10 ' protech? i do not see that model in any of their lists for any size. I know with larger storms, i will not be able to take full passes but it will help clearing times considerably i hope.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Rc2505;751205 said:


> Well around here a 15 to 20 thousand dollar loader is going to buy you a mid 90's loader. Figuring a mid 90's loader is going to have a few thousand hours on them, and the pins and bushings will be somewhat worn, maybe a small hydrolic leak turns into a big one pretty quickly. Who knows, maybe it gets cold enough to freeze up or something. Anything can happen and a back up plan is a must in case it does happen. Specially if he goes with 1 loader per 3 lots. a 2 or 3 hour breakdown, and it will be hell to catch up. I am not suggesting he buy an extra loader and have it just sitting around, but at least know where to get a back up piece of equipment that will still be large enough to use the same pusher in case it does.


What type of mid 90's loader are you talking about for 15-20k exactly?


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

Just about anything of decent size except a Cat. Those are still running closer to 30 thousand. I just sold my 1989 International with a 3 yard bucket on it for 19,000 last spring. I replaced it with a John Deere 310 Backhoe. I figured the backhoe was a little more versitile for what I need.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

Rc2505;751205 said:


> Well around here a 15 to 20 thousand dollar loader is going to buy you a mid 90's loader. Figuring a mid 90's loader is going to have a few thousand hours on them, and the pins and bushings will be somewhat worn, maybe a small hydrolic leak turns into a big one pretty quickly. Who knows, maybe it gets cold enough to freeze up or something. Anything can happen and a back up plan is a must in case it does happen. Specially if he goes with 1 loader per 3 lots. a 2 or 3 hour breakdown, and it will be hell to catch up. I am not suggesting he buy an extra loader and have it just sitting around, but at least know where to get a back up piece of equipment that will still be large enough to use the same pusher in case it does.


no where in the US can you get a mid-90's loader (that still runs) for 15-20k. hell on machinery trader i can sell my 1974 Trojan 1700 for 13-15k alone.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

I have a two acre lot that is zero tolerance and it went $14,500 this year. a little under what i wanted,but it gets alot of traffic and the salt and the salt off the cars goes a long way I learned so I have not had to use as much as I thought.


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## rollin snow (Mar 4, 2009)

15 to 25 a hour for agood driver not 40 or 30 they just drive ! no fuel ! no repairs! they just have show up and break stuff . o i ment plow !


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

Remember to include unemployment, social security, and workers comp insurance on your drivers. Figure it at 30% of your labor. 

If you are planning on 15 plowings per year don't forget those storms that require 2-3-4-5 plowings per event. If it starts snowing at 6:00 am and doesn't stop til 4:00pm you will plow 4-5 times at least. That ONE storm will account for 1/3 of what you counted on doing.

Don't forget depreciation on equipment. The easiest (not most accurate though) way to do it is to dovode what you paid for it by the number of years you think it will be in service.


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## PlowboyBlake (Dec 17, 2003)

Im in western illinois...what maintenance company is this??? Genesis or ServUrite??


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