# Per Occurance



## Idahoplow (Sep 19, 2003)

I am new to the snow plowing business this season and have just received a request for bid on three parking lots. 

They are asking for the removal of 1" of snow or the projected accumulation of 1" or more of snow with the bid priced per occurrence.

Does this mean that I should only bid once per snow fall or for the full snow fall. Per occurance means? When I drop the plow or every snow fall? 

Just wondering, thanks for any info.


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## Lawn Lad (Feb 4, 2002)

Generally per occurence means that each time you plow, you charge. If that's 1" or 3", you charge 'em once for that plow. If you go back later in the day or begin plowing again, that would be a second charge... "per occurrence". 

The 1" is the trigger depth, when you begin plowing. So you'll be ready to go at 1/2 or 3/4", when it hits 1" you begin plowing. 

If you use the search feature and read about different contract types, you'll see all the different variations that people put into their contracts. For instance, tiering the per occurence so that you charge from 1 - 4", 4 - 8", etc. Or, some may opt to charge for a second plowing if the snow is 6" or greater on that push. At a 1" trigger though, you should be hitting that several times during the day that you wouldn't have a 6" snow fall all that often. Maybe one overnight where you get 8 or 10 hours of accumulation it might be more likely.


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## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

Welcome to Plowsite. :waving: 

i think Lawn Lad has pretty much summed it up well.Either way,you will need to tier the pricing or bill for multiple pushes to accommodate different snowfall amounts.


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## digger242j (Nov 22, 2001)

Lawn lad, I beg to differ...



> Generally per occurence means that each time you plow, you charge. If that's 1" or 3", you charge 'em once for that plow. If you go back later in the day or begin plowing again, that would be a second charge... "per occurrence".


What you describe is what I'd call "per push".

My definition of "per occurence" would be, in plainer and totally untechnical terms, "per snowstorm". In other words, if it snows 6" today, that's the "occurance" of one snowfall, regardless of how many times you visit the property to plow the snow. I agree with Wyldman about structuring the pricing the cover multiple visits, if the contract language is "per occurance".

In some other threads recently this has been discussed and it's been mentioned that contrat language should also state that each 24 hour period is a different "occurance", (for those times that it just seems to snow constantly for three days).

I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. It's certainly an important enough point to have clear between the customer and the contractor.


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## Lawn Lad (Feb 4, 2002)

In another thread I said how it's interesting that different areas of the country use different terminology. It's confusing. This is one of the reasons that I believe SIMA should work at collecting and then publishing a list of standard terms for the industry. 

Digger... I would think your "Per occurrence" is more along the lines of "Per storm" or "Per event". Per occurrence means each time I do the work. I expand the per occurrence term to include salting. If I say per push, then how do I say "per salting"? I could say per push and per salting, but I shorten it to say per occurence, no matter what the type of service. 

The only problem that I see with a standard set of terms is trying to reconcile the different uses of terms in various parts of the country. However, if the industry can represent the same terms across the board, it will not only make it easier for all of us to commincate, but it will also be easier to educate the customer and help them to be more informed. Who knows... we'll see what happens with a dictionary of terms down the road. 

For now... I'll stick with calling stuff per occurence. I do however, have customer who will say, "what?" not understanding. Then I tell explain that we invoice for each time we do the work. They then say, well, no contract? Yes, there is a contract no matter they type of pricing structure, but the price strucutres will be 1) per occurence 2) limited seasonal or 3) no limit seasonal contract. 

Some people seem to equate "per push" or "per occurence" pricing with meaning no contract... and they have to call each time they want the work completed. There is a lot of education that is needed, both at the contractor and at the customer level. And since everyone does it differently, the customer is easily confused - or worse yet they think they know what they want and then write it down as spec, often making no sense.


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## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

I can see how someone could easily misunderstand with all the different terms used.I would agree that "per occurance" would be interpreted as "per snowfall".Clear and specific contractual definitions are very important.The 24 hr period per occurance is important too,or you could be stuck plowing for days.

The only way to go with true per occurance is the tiered pricing structure.So if you get 3" from the storm,or occurance in taotal,you bill for your 2-4" price.Other wise it would have to be defined as per push,with a set price per push.So a if your pushing every 2",then a 3" snowstorm would be billed as two pushes.

Again,the contact or bid wording is key here.Make sure you discuss all the different billing options with them,so they are as well informed as you are.Might also be a good time to discuss seasonal pricing as well,so you,and them don't have to worry about all this stuff.


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## BRL (Dec 21, 1999)

IdahoPlow,
Welcome to Plowsite!

We've been discussing a lot of this in depth in another current thread here (though it's in the Snowplowing Forum & now I think we should have moved it here maybe). Digger242, I also can see where people can interpret that wording both ways. However, in this case, the terms that IdahoPlow posted are specifically defining the per occorence as what we call "per push".

"the removal of 1" of snow", "with the bid priced per occurrence"
That is specifically saying they want a price for each time the act of removing the snow happens. Looking in my Webster's, the other definition of occurence is "event, incident" so we could certainly interchange "per occurence" with "per event" when using that definition. And for fun I looked up "event" 1. an occurence 2. an outcome. So now I see we can interchange "per event" with both "per push" & "per storm" based on it's definition. So we went from making Plow Babe  to now making IdahoPlow  along with the rest of us I'm sure. Or we'll end up  or :crying: from reading through these great threads. 

Anyway, Lawn Lad and these last few threads brings up the great point of the need for a standard of terms for our business. When we are posting here we use "per push" a lot along with many other terms. I will say that I don't use that phrase with my customers,who may have never plowed snow & have no idea what I'm talking about. Like LL mentioned he has clients ask him "What?" when reading the specifics of the contract. For my communications with the clients I use the terms "per snow storm" for "per event"and "per clearing or removal of snow from the lots\walks" for "per push" to put things in layman's terms for them. When talking to my fellow snow plowers here "we pushed the lots 6 times in that big dump last month" but when claryifying for my client, "we completely removed the snow from your lots & walks 6 separate times during the blizzard last month". Isn't the English language such fun?


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

One basic rule that I try to always follow when involved in drafting contracts (not just snow removal) is to keep things simple and make sure that any individual that reads the contract interprets the terms as they were intended.

I view it from the standpoint that a contract is there solely to resolve conflicts should they arise. I approach it by thinking - if I'm standing in a court trying to explain my position to a judge, will the contract that I am showing the judge show clearly that I am in the right?

The best way that I know of to accomplish this is to put examples right in the contract that illustrate terms that may be open to different interpretation by different people.

The different meaning of "per occurence" cited in this thread is a very good example. If you use "per occurence" in your contract, put in an example that clearly shows what you mean by "per occurence". Make it crystal clear within your contract that it means per snowstorm or per push, whatever your intention is.

I can guaranty you that doing so will always pay back in the end due to less hassles and arguing with the other contract party or judge as to "what that contract term means".


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## Lawn Lad (Feb 4, 2002)

Having a section of "Definitions" isn't a bad idea. Before long you could have a 10 page contract. I agree, defining the vocabulary you use is important.


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## digger242j (Nov 22, 2001)

The English language does have *so* many shades of meaning for any given word!

My issue with "per occurance" is that, to me anyway, "occurance" carries the meaning of a thing that happens but is not within your control. Volcanic eruptions, full moons, tornadoes, and snowstorms are vents that "occur". Snowplowing and salting (at least from our perspective), is an event that is *made* to happen, hence I'm not comfortable referring to it as an "occurance". 

I agree that some standard definitions are required.


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## BRL (Dec 21, 1999)

There's nothing in Webster's talking about who controls the occurence. The Raiders - Broncos Monday Night Football game occured. The PTO meeting I went to last night occured. It was made to happen by being scheduled, the parents & teachers went & had their disucssions, and then it adjourned. The tornadoes that touched down today in NJ occured. So in these cases we had occurences of events and some were within our control, & some weren't. IMO, there are enough occurences of double meanings of English words that actually occur naturally, without us actually changing a definition to create even more definitions LOL


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## digger242j (Nov 22, 2001)

I understand that the dictionary doesn't make the distinction, but to me it has just a little bit different shade of meaning.

What would you think if one of your drivers called you and said, "While I was plowing the lot at the QuickieMart, an accident occurred" ? You'd probably want more details, and when you were told, "I didn't check my mirrors and backed into somebody's Mercedes", you'd probably feel that referring to it as something that just "occurred" was a little misleading.

Last night's PTO meeting occurred, but if you asked the school Principal or teachers what had gone on last night they'd probably answer, "We held a PTO meeting". That's because they *made* it happen. 

Snowstorms occur, and a casual observer might watch the snowplowing as it occurs, but from the perspective of the snowplower I don't think any of us would feel it's an "occurrence". Heck, after a few hours it begins to feel an awful lot like work.

(BTW, I recognize that this might well be the most trivial discussion that's ever occurred here on PlowSite. Maybe there should be an award for that...)


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## Idahoplow (Sep 19, 2003)

Thanks for all the help everyone.

I have decided to include a definition of per occurance in my bid so that the meaning is clear to all involved, I thought that would be the best way to cover my tail.

I didn't think it was that trivial. When you deal with a customer that may have one idea of what per occurance means and you have another meaning, things can get expensive for both sides if there is not a mutual understanding of what work is going to be completed.

Thanks again, Jerry


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## Plow Babe (Feb 4, 2003)

We just submitted a bid that was requested on a "per-push" basis, but with some of the other wording in their specifications, it was not clear what they meant by it. So I typed up four different scenarios and detailed what we would charge for each one according to the pricing we were submitting. I then made a note that this page was made part of our bid package.

I don't know yet if we will get the account, but the contact person said it was very helpful to have that information.


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## CPSS (Mar 15, 2002)

In my contracts I call it "per plowing". That way there can be no confusion. If we plow 3 times during one day, one night, one week.....It doesn't matter, It's still 3 plowings, and we bill for each.


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## JustUsDe (Aug 14, 2003)

My subdivision accounts are priced as to increments of Snow fall per snow event. Its up to me on how many times I plow it.
I price them as follows
2 to 4
4 to 8
8 to 12
12 to 16
over 16 is considered blizzard conditions and will be priced at 12 to 16 plus $250.00 per hour for heavy equipment with operator.

I have a few subdivisions that are real close so if we get an event that will produce more than 4 I figure I will keep one truck running through all of them not to let the snow to accumulate to much.


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## NoStockBikes!! (Oct 29, 2002)

I agree with the guys who would assume occurrence refers to the now event. I think you'd be inviting disputes to use that language. A storm occurs, you push the resulting snow out of the way. All it would take is a judge to agree that the storm is the occurrence, not the work performed, and you could end up plowing 36" of snow times 6" at a time over a 3 day blizzard for $20. I'd ditch the "cute" technical terms and be MUCH more obvious with the intent of the contract. "Each time I come to plow, it will cost $XXX. If it's snowing really hard, I will have to come back every 6 inches for additional pushes @ $XXX."


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

A good example is the WTC - a judge ruled last week that the two separate plane crashes into each tower were one terrorist event, so the owner can only collect once from the insurance companies. He had argued that these were two separate attacks, so two separate claims. He lost.

Two sides, two different interpretations, so end up in court.

Make it clear and simple in your contract exactly what you mean.


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## digger242j (Nov 22, 2001)

> a judge ruled last week that the two separate plane crashes into each tower were one terrorist event, so the owner can only collect once from the insurance companies.


Wow! Forget all the other long term forecasts. This winter is bound to be a whopper. A legal opinion has been handed down that actually makes sense--It must be a cold day in H*ll !!


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## IA snoman (Aug 31, 2003)

Just wanted to thank Wyldman and others responding to my questions on the site. However I have another one with the pricing of contracts. Here most of all jobs are bid hourly. I would like to bid per plow or seasonally. I have seen how some break down their prices into snowfall amounts, 2-4", 4-8" etc. Can somebody help me by telling what a going rate is for this type of method. I know it is only an estimate, but I don't want to be out of line high or low. Plus some people freak out when you tell them you charge 50-150/Hr. I just want to give the customer some options so they feel comfortable and in control of the situation while I too feel I am in control and make things as easy for the both of us.


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## Lawn Lad (Feb 4, 2002)

When you bid a seasonal contract you're just adding up your hours on anticipated work. If a lot takes one hour and you want $100.00 an hour, with 20 plowings that would be $2,000.00 for the season. Rough figure. 

Couple of things come into play. First, you need to know how many plowable events you'll have on average for the season. If you're detailed about it, you're seasonal price would allow for different size storms, so you wouldn't just bid 20 x $100. You might have 14 x $100, 5 x $150 and 1 x $200 (graduated pricing due to snow fall totals), giving you a total price of $2350 for the season. 

You'll also want to consider the length of the contract or how you limit yoru liability or exposure to a high snow fall winter. If your contract is for unlimited snow fall - you want a multi year contract. If you can't get a multi-year contract you may want to consider either raising that one year unlimited seasonal price or put a cap on the contract either by occurrences or by inches of snow.


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## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

We bid the same way here.Hours required X hourly rate X average number of plowable events.

You have to go multi-year to make it profitable,as it will even out over the years.When I submit a proposal,it has several price structures on it.One rate for one year,one for 3 years,and one for 5 years or longer.When the see the cost difference,and the saving on a multi-year.they usually sign long term.I usually add 20-30% on a single year seasonal,and it's cash upfront,no terms.

Like stated above,putting a cap on the max amount of plowable snow is another way to keep it in check if they want to keep costs down.It protects you as well if you get a real heavy winter.


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## JustUsDe (Aug 14, 2003)

Around here it's hard to get some of the subdivisions to go with a seasonal contract. They usually want a per event price broken down in snow amounts. So I estimate how long it would take to do the subdivision x it by the hourly price I need to make expenses and profit margin I expect and give them the price that way. Here is an example of pricing on a bid I submitted last week.


1. The term of this contract is per snow event, said season commencing on the date of execution of this contract and running through April 30, 2004.
2. The AMOUNT to be paid by Owner to Contractor under this contract is to be paid as follows:
Pricing on a per snow event basis:
Snowfall 
0-4" $ 225.00
4-8" $ 500.00
8-12” $ 750.00
12-16” $ 1000.00 

3. The above payments shall be made without exception as provided. 
4. The total amount to be paid may be increased as provided below.
CONDITIONS
a. Measurement of total snowfall accumulation will be relied upon by an independent weather service such as New Castle County Airport.
b. Removal of snowfall accumulations in excess of 16 inches are considered Blizzard Conditions and are additions to this contract and shall be paid as individual "per storm" costs at $ 250.00 per hour for heavy equipment with one operator.


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## IA snoman (Aug 31, 2003)

JustUsDe, Wyldman, Lawn Lad, thank you again for the help. The info is making this easier for me to offer some options to current and future clients.


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## BRL (Dec 21, 1999)

JustUs,
A couple of comments in case that is exactly the wording you used : What if the New Castle Airport reports exactly 4", do you charge 225 or 500? Change to 0-4, over 4 to 8, or 0-3.99, 4 - 7.99 etc.
Define "heavy equipment". I'm not gonna be too happy if you show up at my facility with a Bobcat 563 & stack snow for 20 hours at $250.00\hour, when a 580L coulda done the same work in 8 hours at $250.00\hr. 

(I watched a contractor do this in a 5-6 acre shopping center lot after our last blizzard last year. I offered to help him when we were caught up, figuring the real machine was broken down, or a sub couldn't get there, or similar. He said no way cause of all the hours he could bill. I saw him in there for 2 days of at least 15 hours or so & I don't know how long he ultimately spent, but what I saw him do I coulda done in about 3-4 hours with the 580 I was using. Comical.)


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## JustUsDe (Aug 14, 2003)

If The airport reports a snow fall right at the cutoff I charge for the lower amount. Heavy equipment is either my case 480 or if needed I rent a loader. Around here a skid-steer is a backyard toy and not considered heavy equipment. I only used a skid-steer once for snow removal and that was last year at a Lowe's store that wanted there fenced in nursery cleared out between their racks because they had several loads of trees being delivered after the Big Storm. If I could of got my backhoe in there I would of rathered use it. Skid-steer takes too long to make me happy.


Ray


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