# Condo Association Unnecessary Work--Help



## Allor Outdoor (Oct 30, 2006)

I will try to make my story/dilemma as short as possible:

We have provided lawn and snow service to a condo association for the past 4-5 years. We have always had a good relationship with the management company and the onsite maintenance guy (there have been 3 different guys since we took over the property).

The newest maintenance guy that started just last month, called me today claiming that we buried a fire hydrant. I was a bit skeptial at first, because I have a good crew of guys that are very familiar with this site.

The maintenance guy DEMANDED that I come take care of the problem RIGHT NOW! I personally dropped everything I had going to drove out to the site. I asked him where the hydrant was that we buried.
He pointed a huge pile of snow (approx 20 x 15 ft x 15 ft tall), and said "you buried one under that pile". I looked at him and told him that I know for a fact that there was not a hydrant under there!
He insisted that there was, and that he saw it just the other day!
He retreated back to his house and left me to work.
Luckily I keep a skid on-site, so I started up the machine and started moving the pile. I got about 1/2 way done and I called him letting him know that I had yet to find the hydrant! He said "well, keep digging because I know it is there!" and then proceeded to say "if you want to leave it buried, that is up to you, but if there is a fire, then we are going to come after you".
I continued to dig out the pile of snow....right down to the grass! Moved the whole damn pile...I called him again and told him he needed to come look for himself!
He got his lazy a$$ up and drove down to where I was moving the pile...he drove by once, parked his truck, got out, walked around, looked at me and said "oh man, I'm really sorry...I really though there was a hydrant there"

I was SO pissed off, I started the machine back up and drove away!

Question is: How do I handle it:
1) let it go and forget about it
2) charge them per the contract for additional services (4 hour min @ $165/machine hour)
3) notify the board president of this guy being a dumb a$$
4) notify the management company

I have a ton of things running through my head as to how I want to handle the situation...but figured I would turn to you guys to get some opinions!

Thanks


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## rcn971 (Jan 28, 2011)

I personally would discuss this with the property manager what resolution he/she offers as a resolution. They may offer you payment and they may not. If not than I would send an invoice for the contract amount and mark it down to n/c for the ending total with a complete description of event and email to every board member as well as property manager.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

If this is the first problem you've had with these guys, probably not a big deal. I'd go to the manager and advise them that you COULD bill them...maybe try to get something from them, but maybe letting this incident go will let you up the price next year, or maybe they'll be a little easy on you if you ever make a mistake in the future.


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## loudcav (Jan 24, 2011)

Id send a note to the board and management and see if they can help you recoup your losses perhaps even send him a bill


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## 89Comanche (Jan 10, 2011)

Personally I would let it go, he is newish and made a mistake. I would although make note of it, and tell the manager not in a effort to get anything but just as a heads up this guy may need a little more education of the property. If it happens again, then make a stink over it.


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## fiveoboy01 (Aug 18, 2006)

Well the guy did apologize and say he is sorry, sounds like you have an otherwise pretty good deal with this association. I'd be inclined to let it go or perhaps charge a small amount to cover fuel and a bit of your time. 

I'm not so sure I'd worry about notifying the board president and management company... The guy is new, and though he thought there was a hydrant there, there wasn't.... But he only wanted it uncovered. I'd let it go in this respect, I think that doing the former will simply strain the relationship with the onsite maintenance guy. If he continues to be a problem throughout the season or during the warm months then yes you'll need to bring it up with the appropriate people, but not over one incident. 

Kind of a catch 22 though, if you try to get compensated for your work, you'll have to explain what happened with the onsite guy... So you either will have to just let it go or tell someone what happened....

If you were 100% sure there was no hydrant there, you shouldn't have moved the pile. I know I wouldn't have, and if the guy throws a further fit, tough ****. JMO.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

What I would do:

(feed them some BS about how you care about their well being and saftey)

Bring it to the right people's attention, and tell them you are not going to bill for it because it was an honest mistake and you just wanted to make sure the property was as safe as it could possibley be and that even though you were 99% sure, even you make a mistake every now and then, but keep this one in your back pocket incase you make a mistake. It seems you have a good thing going.


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

i would also just let it go. is it worth stirring up trouble for a contract you have had for 5 years. i would think you may end up on the bad side of the new maintenance man and he may eventually influence some board members as to who they contract with in the future,
steve


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## white diamonds (Jan 19, 2011)

*condo assc unnecessary work*

I agree with commanche let it go,people make mistakes. somewhere down the line you may miss something and you dont want him running to the condo association do you? chalk it up as a learning experience for him that you know the property.


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## carlriv2 (Oct 15, 2001)

I would have called the management company before you moved the pile... but at this point I would absolutly put it on the bill at full price and then discount it by 50% or 100%.....Unless part of the contract is moving snowbanks when they get too large and this one was getting close to needing to be moved anyway,,, then BILL IT at that rate.


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

Since your contract specifies a rate for extra services, I'd bill them as per the contract, and make sure to note on the bill for those services something like "moved snow pile at direction of bob".


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## bow2no1 (Oct 6, 2008)

if you let it go he's not going to learn from his mistakes...
thats guy needs to trust you and your judgment.

there was no need of him demanding that you come down do have it taken care of.
if i make a mistake it is my fault. if you make a mistake it's your fault.....
he needs to be held accountable for his actions...


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

*Bill Them*.....Simple as that......Bill them for your Time and anything else you feel the need to..................


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

I'd bill it. If there was a hydrant in the pile and there was a fire they wouldn't just let you off with a "mistake".


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## snowplowchick (Feb 22, 2008)

I would definitely bill them 100% of the price you would bill any other client if they requested the job.

Let him explain to management if they call him. Make sure you make a short line on the invoice like- per Buddy's instruction.

Don't think twice about it. Bill it, done. I wouldn't get into a long drawn out conversation explaining yourself, like some are suggesting, you performed a service at their request, you should be compensated.


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## Winterized (Mar 3, 2007)

The guy that called you.... probably went off blathering to anyone who would listen to him, how you screwed up and he was the sharpest pencil in the box for catching your screw-up and chewing you out for it, demanding you move that pile ASAP.

Now boys and girls.... turns out there is no hydrant! ... and he's the horses backside. I would let it go and keep that ace in your pocket to play later.

We all make mistakes. It's how we own up to them that determines our professionalism.

If..... you wanted to. Write a very polite, non judgmental letter to the HOA president telling him of the incident. Suggesting for everyone's benefit and safety, attach tall markers to hydrants each Fall. The City does it here on the corners.


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## Cmbrsum (Oct 2, 2008)

You said they have gone threw three of four maintenance guys in the last 5 years. My guess is they don't pay well or threat them right. So if they are going to continue hiring on-site people like that you may have similar problems arise like this with others in the future. 
Just be straight forward and bill for what you were requested to do 100%. As far as saving face with the manager you deal with, explain to him in your bill what the situation is and that he may pay you what he feels is fair. However make it clear that you will do the best you can to give him the great customer service he requires and you just proved that you will be there for any screw ups on your part. But if they screw up, they can expect to be billed.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Good for you. You placed the customers safety above anything else and you should be commended for it. You didn't stand there and argue the point before you did anything, you did it first and now you are asking the best path of action. I would make up a bill for it and send it to the property manager to alert them to a serious violation of the HOA and maybe your firms agreement. The fire hydrants are not marked and the HOA and you don't have a site map of the property. At the very least the hydrant should have a metal marker that stands higher than any pile you are capable of piling. The site map would not only mark the hydrants but any other important infrastructure such as gas meters etc. It would also specify where the snow accumulations go and who responsible for to remove them. I wouldn't expect or demand payment for the bill, but a simple acknowledgement that yes, your time is worth money too. I however wouldn't mark the fire hydrants or make a site map for free either


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## Kramer (Nov 13, 2004)

Charge him for your time/ effort.

When they get the bill let him explain it. He pushed you to do it, you told him it didn't exist and your time and machine are worth money.


If you don't charge him in this case, then why don't you just ride around town and move peoples snow piles for free? 
I charged a guy $100 to knock the 2 piles at the end of his drive down after he snowblowed an 8ft tall pile. He was happy to pay. It's not my fault he snowblowed a mountain there....should I fix it for free? NO!


There was never a question in your mind that the hydrant didn't exist. Charge him full price.

He needs to know that he can't just waste your time and say, gee, sorry. If you let him get away with this he will walk all over you....and it will be your fault. Next it will be,,,,, can you just do this and that for free?? NO....you have a business, you're not his cousin.


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

I'd bill for the time and as others have mentioned, make a notation on the bill "per maintenance manager's instructions".

He even stated he was willing to "go after you" if something happened. The professional thing to do, IMO, is to just present them with a bill. If they have an issue with it after receiving the bill they will ask you about it. Then, if they do indeed question it, tell them you will offer them a discount (50%?) but just this one time. You've been there 5 years or so and assuming there have been no issues in the past, now others will assume you did something wrong because he most likely already told those in charge of "your mistake". If you say and/or do nothing you are essentially willing to accept his word and he'll only find something else down the road to justify his own ignorance at your expense.

I've turned the other cheek numerous times and to be honest, it eventually comes back to bite you in the buttocks.

Business is business. You left another site that put you behind schedule at that customer's expense/delay. Do you think for one minute the association/manager would not hold you responsible if the roles were reversed in some manner?


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## RTEnt (Apr 14, 2007)

My question is: Why didn't't you contact the property manager immediately. We deal with a couple of management companies and if there any services outside of the scope of a contract it needs to be authorized by them and only them. I've had board presidents contact me with request for work and unless I get the ok from a property manager we don't take any actions.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

From my experience with HOAs (15 years & 10 or so HOAs) you could send them a bill they probably wont pay it or will at least protest it. We are down to just one HOA, thank god. While most have payed there bills on time or early, the cronic complainming over above & beyond the scope of work stuff, the non-billable BS services calls, etc. make them one of the most chalanging group of clients to deal with. Im a firm believer if you can deal with HOAs & residential clients you can deal with almost any type of client.


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

I didn't look very close to every response but I didn't see anyone tell you to take pictures in the fall of any potential places snow may be piled up. I do this in the fall so I have reference if the amount of snow gets too deep or if my loader (who may have never been to the property) needs it for reference. Only takes a few minutes at each property and could have prevented an incident like this. 

BTW: I would most definitely send them the bill. You were in the right and they were in the wrong


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## Allor Outdoor (Oct 30, 2006)

RTEnt;1235199 said:


> My question is: Why didn't't you contact the property manager immediately. We deal with a couple of management companies and if there any services outside of the scope of a contract it needs to be authorized by them and only them. I've had board presidents contact me with request for work and unless I get the ok from a property manager we don't take any actions.


The onsite maintenance manager, according to my contract, has the right to order/issue work orders to contractors.
IF the hydrant had indeed been buried then of course there would be no need for a work order, and I obviously would not consider sending an invoice.

BUT...
since there was not a hydrant there and he INSISTED that the pile be moved, I am leaning towards sending the invoice, with a letter of explaination for the invoice.
I do think that if I just let this go, it is going to happen again.


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## RTEnt (Apr 14, 2007)

I misunderstood the role of the maintenance guy at the facility. If he is an employee of the property management company and insisted the you perform the work you are absolutely entitled to get paid.. Good luck


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Simple problem really... do as your contract states... they'd enforce it to you, you do the same to them.....


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## v-plower (Dec 11, 2007)

Bill them in full. There should be no question with regard to the bill and if there is let the maintenance manager explain what happened. I would be surprised if they question the bill after speaking to him unless of course he comes up with a whopper of a story.


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## Lsanzerr (Nov 19, 2009)

I'd bill it and then if they ask why tell them bob told you to move it. You probably have enough bs to worry about so send the bill and let them ask for forgiveness.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

On site guys can be your best friends, or worst enemies. If they get in well with the board, they can be the little devil or angel on their shoulders. You want them to be putting in a good word for you, regardless of how good a job you do. I would tell the PM in confidence what happened, and that you are not going to be sending a bill, but you want them to make sure that in the future, this good deed doesn't go unpaid in kind. 

I would then talk to the super when things have calmed down and let him know that you are not sending a bill because you know that will come back to hurt him, and that you need him to know that you have his back, and that he has to have yours. You are both in the same game from different angles. You may find that he can be way more helpful to you over time, let you know if they are planning on sending things to tender, let you know the other companies that you will be bidding against, be your eyes and ears on the site so that you keep the client as happy as possible and your wallet happy as well.

If you talk to him and he is a complete as s, then bill bill bill.


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## StratfordPusher (Dec 20, 2006)

*Dito*



RTEnt;1235199 said:


> My question is: Why didn't't you contact the property manager immediately. We deal with a couple of management companies and if there any services outside of the scope of a contract it needs to be authorized by them and only them. I've had board presidents contact me with request for work and unless I get the ok from a property manager we don't take any actions.


DITO>>>>>>>>> Been there and done that.......


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## qualitycut (Jan 13, 2008)

StratfordPusher;1235968 said:


> DITO>>>>>>>>> Been there and done that.......


That is my understanding as well, we do some apartments that are all from one property company and we get a call from the caretaker to plow and we are not authorized to plow unless we get the ok from the property management company.


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## jklawn&Plow (Jan 8, 2011)

3) notify the board president of this guy being a dumb a$$
4) notify the management company

Send them a bill for gas of skidster and round trip truck miles
Show them your labor for time spent, give deduction to lesser labor if you want, give them deduction for wear and tear on skidster if you want.
Let them see what it costs you and bill them. That new guy might already be trying to get his people in to quote the job for next year anyway. Be professional but not a sucker.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I think you should bill them for the work you had to do. But this line in the OP has me baffled: 2) charge them per the contract for additional services (4 hour min @ $165/machine hour) Is this really what you charge for additional services? I don't think you should charge them that much, especially if the skid is kept on site.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Yep, bill him. Tell the manager that you made notes where all the fire systems are, and you insitied that he was wrong and you then were told to move the snow. Billl them


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

WIPensFan;1236121 said:


> I think you should bill them for the work you had to do. But this line in the OP has me baffled: 2) charge them per the contract for additional services (4 hour min @ $165/machine hour) Is this really what you charge for additional services? I don't think you should charge them that much, especially if the skid is kept on site.


Your crazy, a skidsteer has a maintenance and depression cost of almost $20.00 per hour, plus fuel.....$165 is totally acceptable. I'm not starting machines for free.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

JohnRoscoe;1234874 said:


> Since your contract specifies a rate for extra services, I'd bill them as per the contract, and make sure to note on the bill for those services something like "moved snow pile at direction of bob".


x2


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

elite1msmith;1236124 said:


> Your crazy, a skidsteer has a maintenance and depression cost of almost $20.00 per hour, plus fuel.....$165 is totally acceptable. I'm not starting machines for free.


I understand rates vary by region, so I can't argue $165/hr is to much, but it says 4hr min. $660 minimum charge?

I might be crazy, but 15 min(if that) of work with the skid is never worth that.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Totally disagree, I know one of the top ten on the 100 list here has an 8 hour min. Granted yeah the machine is on site,...and he's the owner/operator.....but for most companies, they would have had to call a guy in, wait for him to get there, fire up a truck, pay his travel, then do safety checks on the machine, fire up the machine, let it warm up, do the work, then fire up the truck, and drive back to the shop. Travel time for that emplyees has to be paid. If he had to do all that I'm sure he wouldn't make any money if he charged less than $300


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I think we're talking about something a little different than that.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

back on topic
OP

perhaps you should have handled this BEFORE you did the work.
Bob (local guy) says move this pile
you say no fire hydrant.

You clearly say (and get him to sign a paper authorizing the charges). "bob, you say there's a fire hydrant there, I say there isn't, I"m perfectly willing to move the pile of snow. BUT, if there's no fire hydrant, you're paying for the work and the charges are going to be.....".

and I agree as someone else said, he's trying to steal the contract and do it "in house"


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## Allor Outdoor (Oct 30, 2006)

WIPensFan;1236231 said:


> I understand rates vary by region, so I can't argue $165/hr is to much, but it says 4hr min. $660 minimum charge?
> 
> I might be crazy, but 15 min(if that) of work with the skid is never worth that.


15 minutes??????
I was onsite no less than 2.5-3 hours, starting the machine, connecting proper attachments(skid is left onsite with a 9 ft v-blade, not a bucket) moving the pile, cleaning up after pile is moved, reconnecting plow,etc etc


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## Allor Outdoor (Oct 30, 2006)

LoneCowboy;1236373 said:


> back on topic
> OP
> 
> perhaps you should have handled this BEFORE you did the work.
> ...


I do appreciate all of the feedback!!

As far as him trying to "steal the contract and do it in-house"....I don't see that being an issue. It is a 140 unit, high end/very demanding complex. Typical 4-6 in storm requires 2 plow truck, skidsteer, 6 laborers on foot, and 6 tons of salt. 
Not something a typical guy and a truck can handle


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Allor Outdoor;1236392 said:


> 15 minutes??????
> I was onsite no less than 2.5-3 hours, starting the machine, connecting proper attachments(skid is left onsite with a 9 ft v-blade, not a bucket) moving the pile, cleaning up after pile is moved, reconnecting plow,etc etc


I understand you had to be careful because there may have been a hydrant in the pile, but 2.5-3hrs?? How long does it take to "start the machine"? My plow takes 30 sec. to connect and disconnect and another 15 sec to put on the bucket. 
You said " (approx 20 x 15 ft x 15 ft tall), so I know I can move that pile in 15min MAX. So with all the other BS you're talking about...travel time, call the guy, wait for the guy, connecting proper attachments, cleanup and so on, how about 1.5 hrs. You bill him for $200. Seems fair to me, although I don't think they will see it that way.

Why don't you just say what you want to charge and let us tell you if we agree? That's what you're looking for right?


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## Allor Outdoor (Oct 30, 2006)

WIPensFan;1236489 said:


> I understand you had to be careful because there may have been a hydrant in the pile, but 2.5-3hrs?? How long does it take to "start the machine"? My plow takes 30 sec. to connect and disconnect and another 15 sec to put on the bucket.
> You said " (approx 20 x 15 ft x 15 ft tall), so I know I can move that pile in 15min MAX. So with all the other BS you're talking about...travel time, call the guy, wait for the guy, connecting proper attachments, cleanup and so on, how about 1.5 hrs. You bill him for $200. Seems fair to me, although I don't think they will see it that way.
> 
> Why don't you just say what you want to charge and let us tell you if we agree? That's what you're looking for right?


Not really looking for what to charge, but IF to charge and who to notify of the issue. 
If I decide to charge it will be for the full amount $660. 
Owner/operator or not...time and material were spent. I pay myself an hourly rate when working snow, I do this to be fair to myself and my customers. My time is FAR from free
I have a VERY hard time believing that you can move approx 85-90 cubic yards of material (snow) in 15 minutes with a 3/4 yard bucket, especially when you are relocating the snow 60ft away from the original pile!
There is no way that a $45,000 machine, plus fuel and maintenance with an operator should be free.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Allor Outdoor;1236545 said:


> Not really looking for what to charge, but IF to charge and who to notify of the issue.
> If I decide to charge it will be for the full amount $660.
> Owner/operator or not...time and material were spent. I pay myself an hourly rate when working snow, I do this to be fair to myself and my customers. My time is FAR from free
> I have a VERY hard time believing that you can move approx 85-90 cubic yards of material (snow) in 15 minutes with a 3/4 yard bucket, especially when you are relocating the snow 60ft away from the original pile!
> There is no way that a $45,000 machine, plus fuel and maintenance with an operator should be free.


I think there should be a charge, I think $660.00 is too much. Try to be more specific next time on what exactly you had to do, that way we can give a more accurate opinion. I completely agree that your time and machinery should not be free, I said that from the start. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and I hope it works out for you.


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## Dailylc (Feb 12, 2006)

My question to all is: Don't you guys map out your properties before you service them? I have a map of every commercial property showing the locations on hydrants, drains, utility boxes, meters etc. and I predetermine where we will push the snow even before the 1st snow.
Now with a customer like this, I would mention it to the board and property manager to maybe recoup some cost, but I would not push it.

James


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## KEC Maintaince (Jan 1, 2011)

i dont think you should let it go but as for charging them thats up to you.
you were called to site by super
he did tell you to move the pile reguardless if there was a hydrant there or not you did as instructed
there was no hydrant there im sure the guy felt like a a$$ when he saw no hydrant there.
what i would do i would ask the super what he thinks you should charge for his screw up. 
this is only one of many problems with this guy you are going to have you know this as well as every one else here does so nip it in the butt while you have the upper hand.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Allor Outdoor;1236397 said:


> I do appreciate all of the feedback!!
> 
> As far as him trying to "steal the contract and do it in-house"....I don't see that being an issue. It is a 140 unit, high end/very demanding complex. Typical 4-6 in storm requires 2 plow truck, skidsteer, 6 laborers on foot, and 6 tons of salt.
> Not something a typical guy and a truck can handle


I see this new guy trying to grease the skids to push you out the door.

Whether he wants to do it in house, has a relative, friend that he wants to steer the work to, or looking for a kick back from the new guy for getting the job.

He doesn't have to have a snow shovel, all he has to do is get the Co. to agree to buy the equipment and add additional personnel. Called empire building the bigger the buget and personal levels he gets only justifies his increased level of responsibility there by justifying a promotion and raise for him.

He is setting things up to be a problem and get you to quit, and or wanting you to refuse to "unbury" the fire hydrant so he can be a hero by having his replacement guy come in and fix your "F up".

Send a bill for the extra work to the property management company stating this extra work was requested by their on site representative. Bill at your normal rate just as if you were called in by a customer.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Ive been doing condos for years and my experience is they will hold you to the contract if its in their favor. They will nickle and dime you to death, try to get extras for free and blame you for everything out of your control. And when contract time comes up, they will tell you what a great job you did and they absolutely want to resign the contract with you. Of course if you drop your price to meet a low bidders.

I used to give away extras, do nice things, not bill for service calls and put up with the BS.

In the end it only hurts your pocket.

I would bill them your standard rates. Nothing wild, dont screw them. But whatever your contract says you get hourly for the machine times the hours and thats it.

I cant possibly fathom why you wouldnt bill.

Call a plumber for a clogged toilet. If he shows up and does nothing but flush it and it fixes the problem, I guarentee you, youre paying for the call.

He requested and authorized you to do work outside your contract requirements. Its just business


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## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

I would do 2-3 and 4


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## DodgeBlizzard (Nov 7, 2003)

So it took you 2.5 hours to do the job. Your minimum is 4 hours at $ 165 / hr. For one skidloader that sits on site? I think that's over the top but I won't argue that point. $ 660 divided by 2.5 hours = $ 264 dollars per hour. Hey, if you can get it, go for it. But I always look at the big picture and put the shoe on the other foot. Let's play the devils advocate here. I am the HOA President. I just received the bill you sent me. I see a charge for $660 dollars that I am unaware of. I call you immediately to see what's up. You moved a pile of snow because our new maintenance guy told you to? We didn't authorize that. Plus you should have called me before doing the work. Plus you've been plowing that lot for how many years now? I guess if you're going to bill us like this, we won't have any choice but to find another contractor.......and maintenance guy. Now do I feel you should get paid for work you do? Absolutely. But in this situation you should have went with your gut when you knew their wasn't a hydrant there. You are the experienced guy in this situation. You are the boss and the maintenance guy is new. I would have also walked the lot to see if their were any other hydrants close. If so, then you would have had peace of mind IF their was a fire. You also never mentioned the fact of calling your crew guys that plow that lot. That would have been my first call before even going to the lot. Maybe....just maybe you could have gone to google earth and see if it was possible to see a hydrant. Depends on where you're at. They have a street view that is pretty incredible. I say if you have a good HOA job here that pays on time, eat it, but learn from it. As other guys have mentioned, take pictures and notes of every job before the snow starts.


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## loudcav (Jan 24, 2011)

this probably could have been solved without moving any snow as Im sure the fire department has a map of where every hydrant is


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## KEC Maintaince (Jan 1, 2011)

First off the Super is incharge of the site. he is the go to guy for things like this he instructed the OP to move the snow as there was a hydrant there. the OP did as instructed. 
whats the problem
2 wrongs dont make a right i would bring it up to the property mgr as he is the supers boss 
a lot of times the supers are not the brighest bulbs in the package.
as far as charging thats up to you.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

On a complex that size there are generally plans on site , man in charge of service usually has the building plans in his office , it would have been simple to go in and look at the prints and determine wether there was a hydrant there .


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## Allor Outdoor (Oct 30, 2006)

So if you go back and read my first post, I mentioned I was going to keep the story short...I did not mention that:
1) I contacted 2 of my drivers to ask them, they both said they were 95%sure that there wasn't one there
2) I pulled google earth upon my phone, it did not give a clear view of the area, and no street view is available, because it is a private road
3) I contacted the previous property manager to check with him (we become pretty good friends), he could not confirm yes or no
4) I called the fire department, they could not pull a map until the next day 
5) the current property manager told me on his print of the site, there is a hydrant there (this is before we started moving the pile)

When I have the property manager standing there telling me he is 100% sure that there is one there...who am I to stand there and continue the debate!


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Thats not an issue.

Its simple.

He requested a pile to be moved. Unless your contract includes moving piles on the customers request, you are entitled to bill for it. And there is no reason not to


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## KevinClark (Feb 7, 2011)

Well, I think that I would be really really fired up over it as I can tell you are. I agree that I would mention it to the right people but, let it go as far as billing it. I agree that it is not worth losing a contract over. But, I will say that after it was all said and done I would have buried the maintenance man under all of the snow that you just moved! LoL


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## DodgeBlizzard (Nov 7, 2003)

If my guys said they were 95% sure their was no hydrant. And if the fire guys could produce a map the following day. I would have said we'll wait til tomorrow. I feel your pain though.


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

Allor, I think I'm beginning to read between the lines here. The way I read it, you already want to charge them for your time and want to know if you are justified in doing so. In many people's opinion here, yes...you are absolutely justified in charging.


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## zabMasonry (Oct 13, 2007)

I would talk to the onsite guy, I don't think that it would take very long to figure out what his intentions are. 

If he is new, and possessing a particularly thick skull, he may have really though that there was a hydrant there. If you cut him a break, he may very well be beholden to you for as long as he is there. Or its possible that he has other motives. 

I think that bottom line, you need to talk with the person who's name is on your contract, You just move a bunch of snow for no real reason, and you don't want to take a fall for that.

My bottom line would be to recover at least the expense (fixed costs on machine + operator tome + fuel) and I would settle for that. If the guy made a mistake and looks like he just ate his own boot, then cut the break with him. If he seems to have other motives, then go to the person who signed the check, tell them that the contract charge for this would be $660, but you understand it was likely a mistake, and you are only going to charge XXX.

Hopefully this would keep you in the best standing with the organization


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## bln (Feb 12, 2004)

Brian, bill the property manager for being wrong. I have google earth (not from my phone.) But from my computer, and I detail everything out before hand. Like where to put snow, this person leaves early so hit here first, man hole cover is popped up, kind of stuff. Let the board know what happened and let them decide who pays for it. Let them know that you have $660 minnimum, but only charge $330. You said they have been clients for a coupke of years, I'm sure you hav made money off of them. So charge them without raping them.


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## Plow man Foster (Dec 10, 2010)

I know this is an old thread but im kind of curious about what you did. If you dont mind sharing.
WHAT A CLIF HANGER! 
(Read the whole thread then didnt even get an answer!) Like those Shows on tv....
"to be continued....."


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

well now that you brought it up


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