# Prevailing Wage



## Philbilly2

Do any of you guys that run municipal ralley routes have to deal with this.



I have been seeing it on bid packets for schools and municipal work that you need to pay prevailing wage. How does that pertain to snow removal. Is there a snow removal prevailing wage? I have plowed for companys that have done school or municipal work, I have never heard mention of being paid prevailing wage. 

What is the deal?


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## grandview

I think you can look it up for your area. If not ,it's sometimes equal to union wages.

http://www.state.il.us/agency/idol/rates/EVENMO/DE_KALB9.htm


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## Philbilly2

yeah, I found that info, now here is my question.

If I pay a subcontractor $65 an hour, to run his own truck, does that cover his $35ish dollar an hour "truck driver wage"? I know you are going to say it does not matter because he is a subcontrator so he is not an employee so he gets 1099ed.

If so, then do I just pay myself the $65 an hour and my guy his usual $20 an hour for running one of my trucks, If the person that is driving one of my trucks is not a W-2 employee and I just 1099 them as a subcontractor to drive my truck, am I getting around it? 

This is what I don't understand.


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## grandview

This in many threads, if he's using your stuff he's more then likely an employee.


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## mulcahy mowing

Every state has different rules, call your state department of labor and check with them. In some states you have to pay the rate only if your contract is worth over a set dollar amount. They will have a nice size packet of information for you. I work Prevailing Wage at my 9-5 job all the time. it can be confusing even for the company I work for and we are 1,300 men strong. Keep up on it as the rate changes many times per year and if you dont catch onto it the unions will hang you. look at my sig line lol


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## Oshkosh

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_there_...ral_prevailing_wage_and_state_prevailing_wage

Sheds a little light on it....


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## snocrete

Philbilly2;1447799 said:


> yeah, I found that info, now here is my question.
> 
> If I pay a subcontractor $65 an hour, to run his own truck, does that cover his $35ish dollar an hour "truck driver wage"? I know you are going to say it does not matter because he is a subcontrator so he is not an employee so he gets 1099ed.*yep*
> 
> If so, then do I just pay myself the $65 an hour and my guy his usual $20 an hour for running one of my trucks, If the person that is driving one of my trucks is not a W-2 employee and I just 1099 them as a subcontractor to drive my truck, am I getting around it? *nope*
> 
> This is what I don't understand.





grandview;1447809 said:


> This in many threads, if he's using your stuff he's more then likely an employee.


*yep*

Good luck Philbilly!


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## Oshkosh

When I was an owner operator on rated jobs I had to show that I paid myself the rate....
I actually had a separate bank account so there wouldn't be any confusion per my accountant.. 
You , your employees,subs can be audited anytime on rated jobs , it happens often as I was....


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## dfdsuperduty

here is the next question do you go with an operators (local 150 at 50ish an hr) hourly pay rate or teamsters (30ish)


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## mulcahy mowing

dfdsuperduty;1447944 said:


> here is the next question do you go with an operators (local 150 at 50ish an hr) hourly pay rate or teamsters (30ish)


It depends on what equipment they are running, MA breaks it down by machine class. I may even have the sheet at work ill see if I can track it down, scan it in and post it.


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## Philbilly2

snocrete;1447833 said:


> *yep*
> 
> Good luck Philbilly!


So I am supose to pay a guy that is driving my plow truck, using my insurance, my fuel $30 some dollars an hour??? I don't think so. That ain't happening.

Ok so do you just fib the hours so instead of 3 hours at $20 an hour you change the certified payroll sheet to say that he only worked for 2 hours at $30?


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## grandview

dfdsuperduty;1447944 said:


> here is the next question do you go with an operators (local 150 at 50ish an hr) hourly pay rate or teamsters (30ish)


Maybe wrong but he has to pay his employees a the prevailing rate not hire union workers to do the job.


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## Philbilly2

Grand you are correct.

In my area, it is more or less the on the check dollar - prevailing wage is within a dollar or so of our union wages. Difference is all the benifits packages.



How about this question. Why are municipal employees that work for one of the citys that I want to plow in not in an organized union. One of the my buddys that drives a tandem dump to plow snow for the city, who works for the streets department, only getting $22.08 an hour? 

Why do I have to pay somone prevailing wage to run a pickup truck, but the municipality does not have to pay him prevailing wage to run a tandem?

Lots of stuff that I do not understand here and I am hoping that someone has dealt with it to give me an idea of what I am getting into.


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## BPS#1

Phil its the gooberment, they make the rules, they get to do what they want.


I'm sure they spin it to claim they are being fiscally responsible with the tax payer money only paying the guy $22.


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## Rotator911

If its like NY you have a fringe benefit that has too be payed on top of the prevailing.Albany rate for teamster is $25.87+$16.45=$42.32/hr


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## peteo1

Philbilly2;1448314 said:


> So I am supose to pay a guy that is driving my plow truck, using my insurance, my fuel $30 some dollars an hour??? I don't think so. That ain't happening.
> 
> Yes it is. That's the way it works. If you don't understand how prevailing rate works then I would suggest you educate yourself before you go bidding on these jobs. If you don't have the proper insurance, bonding, equipment etc, you could find yourself in quite a predicament.
> 
> Secondly, why do you guys seen to think that you should be getting paid boatloads of money to do this job? I agree that there is an industry average that you can make and everyone wants to make the higher end of the average but expecting to make $25 an hour to plow snow is a bit silly. If you have your own truck and plow, fine charge what you want but to sit here and say I want $25-30/ hr to do a job any idiot can do is simply delusional. Let's be real here, its snow plowing that's it. You show up, drop plow, push to designated area and don't wreck anything in the process. Not real complicated.


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## siteworkplus

peteo1;1448485 said:


> Philbilly2;1448314 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I am supose to pay a guy that is driving my plow truck, using my insurance, my fuel $30 some dollars an hour??? I don't think so. That ain't happening.
> 
> Yes it is. That's the way it works. If you don't understand how prevailing rate works then I would suggest you educate yourself before you go bidding on these jobs. If you don't have the proper insurance, bonding, equipment etc, you could find yourself in quite a predicament.
> 
> Secondly, why do you guys seen to think that you should be getting paid boatloads of money to do this job? I agree that there is an industry average that you can make and everyone wants to make the higher end of the average but expecting to make $25 an hour to plow snow is a bit silly. If you have your own truck and plow, fine charge what you want but to sit here and say I want $25-30/ hr to do a job any idiot can do is simply delusional. Let's be real here, its snow plowing that's it. You show up, drop plow, push to designated area and don't wreck anything in the process. Not real complicated.
> 
> 
> 
> I find that it is the odd, sometimes very long hours and the dedicated 5+ months of being "on call" that demands an attractive wage
> 
> Yeah, I agree plowing is relatively simple in the larger picture of things, but how long did it take you to be really proficient? Be honest.
> 
> The peace of mind knowing I have a well qualified professional that can address most any situation without being "babysat" is worth a couple extra bucks
> 
> . This business sucks enough without the added stress of under paid buffoons behind the wheels of some pretty expensive equipment, not to mention the damage they can cause.
> 
> Any one of my guys can and have done my job,no question, they just choose not to assume the added
> responsibility/risk and time necessary to manage multiple or extensive snow contracts.
> 
> Sometimes I think they're the smarter ones.
> 
> Anyways I believe a well paid professional will make you a lot more scratch in the long run than a "dead from the neck up" operator just with his productivity and attentiveness.
> 
> Just my thoughts
Click to expand...


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## mulcahy mowing

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2405&ChapterID=68

Read that...not only do you have to pay them the $30 an hour you also have to have certified payroll with the city that writes the checks.

I know nothing about IL but here in Boston if you don't pay the rate not only will you lose everything but 100 union workers will show up at your house picket you the next day.


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## grandview

mulcahy mowing;1448809 said:


> http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2405&ChapterID=68
> 
> Read that...not only do you have to pay them the $30 an hour you also have to have certified payroll with the city that writes the checks.
> 
> I know nothing about IL but here in Boston if you don't pay the rate not only will you lose everything but 100 union workers will show up at your house picket you the next day.


Do they take a coffee break during this?


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## cubanb343

I'm pretty sure everyone deserves a break, whether union or not.. whether a prevailing wage job or not.


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## grandview

cubanb343;1448822 said:


> I'm pretty sure everyone deserves a break, whether union or not.. whether a prevailing wage job or not.


I meant when they are are your house to protest ,does the coffee truck show up at 915am?


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## mulcahy mowing

grandview;1448812 said:


> Do they take a coffee break during this?


LMAO Grandview I'm dying here:laughing:


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## cubanb343

I just put some popcorn in the microwave...


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## BPS#1

I agree with Phil.




And this thread wont be open long.


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## cubanb343

mulcahy mowing;1447823 said:


> Every state has different rules, call your state department of labor and check with them. In some states you have to pay the rate only if your contract is worth over a set dollar amount. They will have a nice size packet of information for you. *I work Prevailing Wage at my 9-5 job all the time*. it can be confusing even for the company I work for and we are 1,300 men strong. Keep up on it as the rate changes many times per year and if you dont catch onto it the unions will hang you. look at my sig line lol


Non union electrician for change. Who works prevailing wage all the time. Let me know how that works out for you if you "succeed" in changing the union. You can then say goodbye to prevailing wage. You will become a non union electrician working for change on the dollar. I don't know too many non union guys that complain about the union after working prevailing jobs.

We don't have any unions here that force the landscapers to pay union scale philbilly. But if I was in your situation, just pay your guys the prevailing, and up your bid to reflect the cost. So if you're charging say 60 per truck per hour and paying him 20.. Raise it to 70 or 75 per truck and his wage to 30 or whatever it is. The bidding, in theory, should be a lot more competitive, hopefully with no fly by nights coming out of left field Lowballing the crap out of it!


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## Philbilly2

I wish this could go on for ever, but it won't.



peteo1;1449072 said:


> Maybe you can get a little relief when spring comes and you can go back to cutting grass. No offense to any landscapers who may be reading along.


*This is my favorite part of your post. I don't even own a lawn mower anymore. I pay a landscaping company to cut my grass. :laughing: *


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## Philbilly2

cubanb343;1449106 said:


> Non union electrician for change. Who works prevailing wage all the time. Let me know how that works out for you if you "succeed" in changing the union. You can then say goodbye to prevailing wage. You will become a non union electrician working for change on the dollar. I don't know too many non union guys that complain about the union after working prevailing jobs.
> 
> We don't have any unions here that force the landscapers to pay union scale philbilly. But if I was in your situation, just pay your guys the prevailing, and up your bid to reflect the cost. So if you're charging say 60 per truck per hour and paying him 20.. Raise it to 70 or 75 per truck and his wage to 30 or whatever it is. The bidding, in theory, should be a lot more competitive, hopefully with no fly by nights coming out of left field Lowballing the crap out of it!


*Yeah, that is the problem. There are a bunch of hacks that I know are going to try to bid on this project and it is going to be tough to compete. Hopefully they will end up as a not responsible bidder and get their bid rejected.*


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## grandview

Watch you lose the bid to some black women who owns her own company and is disabled!And for more money then the other bidders put in.


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## Philbilly2

grandview;1449198 said:


> Watch you lose the bid to some black women who owns her own company and is disabled!And for more money then the other bidders put in.


you are not kidding. I have had that happen before


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## mulcahy mowing

The prevailing wage is set by a board that is a collection of union and non union members. I can survive off of it and live good because I am well invested. We do change the union that's why 90% of them are "on the bench". Prevailing wage was set up to protect American citizens from illegal workers who work for nothing. The unions would have you believe that they are the only force protecting the prevailing wage laws. They bully that is all they do.


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## cubanb343

mulcahy mowing;1449205 said:


> The prevailing wage is set by a board that is a collection of union and non union members. I can survive off of it and live good because I am well invested. We do change the union that's why 90% of them are "on the bench". Prevailing wage was set up to protect American citizens from illegal workers who work for nothing. The unions would have you believe that they are the only force protecting the prevailing wage laws. They bully that is all they do.


i can agree with you somewhat. All too often, prevailing wage and davis-bacon are directly tied to unions, which is why they are under attack. It benefits many non-union folks as well. i believe the idea is to give workers a good wage, keeps bidding competitive, and hopefully, the taxpayers are getting what they pay for. (Not always the case, but good in theory!)

But don't be fooled, if the unions were gone, your pay rate would be cut big time. Any time you take the top number out of any average, it's guaranteed to go down. Thumbs Up


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## Oshkosh

Unions = Power in numbers....If it wasn't for the Unions here in the northeast truckers would still be working for free...Some still are...If it wasn't for the Unions rate there wouldn't be many guys left in the trucking/construction industry .
When I was running my trucking/contracting company the rate went from $45 per hour to $65 and that made all the difference in the world back then.It wouldn't have happened without the Unions and their strong arm tacticts....
That being said having been a Teamster local 379 member I have no use being an owner operator and union member.
I personally am not a big union fan but they do provide a service to their members which spills over to everyone in the industry.
The same can be said for the Mass snow and ice union, because of their efforts all Mass DOT contractors benefited in rate increases and protections against fuel price increases..


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## tuney443

To put your original question back on track here Philbilly,why not just bid these prevailing wage gigs extremely high as you will be swamped to no end with paperwork,aggravation,and most likely slow payouts.


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## peteo1

How about you stop trying to make the point of you have to be a large company to give good service. I know plenty of guys who have small companies by choice. You are trying to make guys like that out to be hacks and that's not the case. Just because you need to make x per hour doesn't mean that's what everyone should charge. Personally I won't put my plow on for less than $60/hr. Why? Because that is what I choose to do with my equipment. You can piss and moan all you want about guys with one, two, or however many trucks but the fact is I charge competitively. I choose not to be the biggest guy on the block because I don't want the headaches. I don't need to work twice as hard, plow three times as much and have all the stress that goes with it just to make a few extra dollars. I guess that makes me a hack or a hobby guy or whatever you prefer but it makes you sound like an idiot for suggesting the small company can't give exceptional service.


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## hummer81

Philbilly2;1448314 said:


> So I am supose to pay a guy that is driving my plow truck, using my insurance, my fuel $30 some dollars an hour??? I don't think so. That ain't happening.
> 
> Ok so do you just fib the hours so instead of 3 hours at $20 an hour you change the certified payroll sheet to say that he only worked for 2 hours at $30?


"hobby plowers" lmao. To get back to your questions.... Why bother even bidding on a prevailing wage job if you don't believe in what they are for. All you have done is *****ed about paying higher wages and padding your books to get around it. These prevailing wage jobs tend to get bid higher to pass on the benefits to the companies employees (Not to put the entire difference in your pocket). I have heard of these practices before and it makes me sick to my stomach how greedy some people can be.


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## RepoMan1968

Philbilly2;1447730 said:


> Do any of you guys that run municipal ralley routes have to deal with this.
> 
> I have been seeing it on bid packets for schools and municipal work that you need to pay prevailing wage. How does that pertain to snow removal. Is there a snow removal prevailing wage? I have plowed for companys that have done school or municipal work, I have never heard mention of being paid prevailing wage.
> 
> What is the deal?


Absolutely . PENNDOT (STATE) subs (DRIVERS) are $39.88 hr. out of the yard. PORTAL to PORTAL to clear interstates .These are heavy hiway contractors who've had the contract for years. They're bonded heavily with back up trucks and heavy equipment and proven . 
It's not intended for lil guys . 
Dont take posts from grasshoppers and plow jockeys so seriously .some have no clue what workmans comp is or cost per man


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## Philbilly2

hummer81;1449776 said:


> "hobby plowers" lmao. To get back to your questions.... Why bother even bidding on a prevailing wage job if you don't believe in what they are for. All you have done is *****ed about paying higher wages and padding your books to get around it. These prevailing wage jobs tend to get bid higher to pass on the benefits to the companies employees (Not to put the entire difference in your pocket). I have heard of these practices before and it makes me sick to my stomach how greedy some people can be.


prevailing wage adds another $15 an hour on to the bottom line of each piece of equipment. That is why. It is hard enough to get work in this economy without having to sock another $15 on to the top. I do not feel that somone who is driving one of my pieces of equipment should magicly make $15 an hour because they are on a certian route.

I am not here to get in an argument with people who have no idea how it is to try to get enough work each year to try to keep guys employeed so they can keep food on their tables for their familys. It comes down to this: If I can win the bid, I will be able to employ 10-12 more guys. That is 10-12 more guys that can feed their familys. If I don't get it, they can sit home all winter and not make any money. In my area, I pay a higher rate to equipment operators than alot of people. People need to make money to survive.
and Yes, I am going to make money on the deal. That is how it works. I have all the risk and all the equipment. If I am not going to make money, I am not going to do the work. Simple as that.


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## hummer81

If it means you have to put another 15/hr on each piece of equipment to your bid, then thats what you have to do (its a prevailing wage job). Every other contractor bidding on that job should be doing the same knowing they will be paying their employees a fixed amount per hour. Like I said, if you don't believe in paying higher rates don't bid on a prevailing wage job. I think it is very cut and dry.


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## Oshkosh

http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/dbra.htm#Penalites

Pretty straight forward if you've ever bid a job, figure the higher pw wage ,your expenses,your profit margin and put together a bid package..It is what it is...You get the contract or you don't just like any other bid.
If you want the contract you play by the rules that even the playing field for all involved...
A company that does allot of state contracts here pays their carpenters something along the lines of $52 per hour when working pw jobs including travel time etc.....When they work non pw jobs they are at about half that rate....Needless to say the employees really look forward to the pw jobs.Just more paperwork for the owners which I am sure is more than covered in their bid.


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## fordzilla1155

RepoMan1968;1449924 said:


> Absolutely . PENNDOT (STATE) subs (DRIVERS) are $39.88 hr. out of the yard. PORTAL to PORTAL to clear interstates .These are heavy hiway contractors who've had the contract for years. They're bonded heavily with back up trucks and heavy equipment and proven .
> It's not intended for lil guys .
> Dont take posts from grasshoppers and plow jockeys so seriously .some have no clue what workmans comp is or cost per man


PENNDOT's rate is based on a road mile scale. Plow or plow & salt with the proper computerized application equipment. When considering wear and tear, driver's wage, there is little profit margin. They are always looking for subs, for this reason.


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