# How much Salt or ice melt per acre



## TJD

How much salt or ice melt are you guys applying per acre? I don't want to over charge my customers. I was told that 5 to 6 (50 pound bags) per acre should clear everything within an hour. Has anyone read or experienced different?


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## BC Handyman

It will depend on conditions, do you use ice melt on parking lots? sounds expensive! 300lbs/ acre sounds a little light.


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## TJD

Yes this would be for commercial use. For example if a normal size walmart is 30 acres we'd spend nearly 150 bags of 50 pounds on it. Is that still too light? If so what would you recommend..?

This is for a light storm - i.e. ice 1 inch or under no snow. 


With all that being said I read somewhere where 1 guy mentioned that he would use more than 60 (50 pound) bags to handle 1 acre. If that's true, then I need to go and increase my pricing!


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## 1olddogtwo

Bags and a lot the size of Walmart do not go together.


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## BossPlow2010

1olddogtwo;1608277 said:


> Bags and a lot the size of Walmart do not go together.


Lol :laughing:

I concur.


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## TJD

Well, then I guess that means we got started off on the wrong foot..lol

Im still waiting for some real help around here though...?

So, I take it as most responsible contractors have the salt dumped on the lot for a store/lot that big. Okay, so how much salt is still the question? I don't want to do them a disservice, so I could use the help figuring this thing out. Im a landscaping guy forced to snow by contract...lol


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## nepatsfan

I say a ton per acre... no exact science though, depends a lot on conditions.


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## nepatsfan

You use a lot less at the end of a storm with a clear lot rather than trying to burn off an inch. Also depends on snow, wet or dry- temps etc. Lots of factors


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## 1olddogtwo

nepatsfan;1608290 said:


> I say a ton per acre... no exact science though, depends a lot on conditions.


On the low end 700/800lbs.


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## Burkartsplow

Why are you using bagged product on a lot that size in the first question? You are throwing money out the window by not using bulk. I have always figured out from 500 to 1000 lbs per acre depending on traffic, surface and air temps, how much sun the lot gets and is it on the north or south side of the building and shade. So in your example you put down 7500 lbs of ice melt to service the lot. Now what type of ice melt are you using because rock salt is considered ice melt or are you using calcium? More info would help. And the post about a ton of product per acre seems excessive IMO.


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## dfd9

1olddogtwo;1608277 said:


> Bags and a lot the size of Walmart do not go together.


No kidding.

If you think you can burn off an inch of ice per acre with anything less than a ton, you're using jet fuel and a lighter as well.

1,000# acre. This covers early .1" of snow to a blizzard with 2" per hour and 10* or a half inch in March.

That's an average.

Can it be as low as 500#\acre? Sure. Can it be as high as a ton\acre? Sure.


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## BC Handyman

1olddogtwo;1608277 said:


> Bags and a lot the size of Walmart do not go together.





BossPlow2010;1608279 said:


> Lol :laughing:
> 
> I concur.


I'll X2 that:laughing:


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## TJD

Burkartsplow;1608293 said:


> Why are you using bagged product on a lot that size in the first question? You are throwing money out the window by not using bulk. I have always figured out from 500 to 1000 lbs per acre depending on traffic, surface and air temps, how much sun the lot gets and is it on the north or south side of the building and shade. So in your example you put down 7500 lbs of ice melt to service the lot. Now what type of ice melt are you using because rock salt is considered ice melt or are you using calcium? More info would help. And the post about a ton of product per acre seems excessive IMO.


Quick answer because I'm new at this with no one to help or guide me. My only counsel comes from this site, and sometime this doesn't come through pending on who answers the questions.

Rock Salt was used the one time we actually had to go out which cost me locally 6 to 7 bucks per bag.

The storm we treated for wasn't heavy at all. I cant remember all the specifics but it was somewhere between 28-31 degrees no snow accumulation with a build-up of ice that at most gave you an inch covering in untreated areas.


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## TJD

I now feel like Im being helped. However, I'm still seeing a big difference in what some of you are saying. The one thing I know for sure at this point is to have my salt delivered to the place and no more bags..lol

With that being said I saw someone say to treat ice build-up it should be 1 ton per acre. Im not a genius so laugh if Im wrong, but doesn't one ton equal 2,000 pounds? If that's the case then I royally screwed myself, which explains why I had to go back. I kept reading and then I saw someone say nearly 700LBS are good enough for 1 acre. That's a 1300LBS difference.


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## TJD

I know there is not a science to it as 1 + 1 will forever = 2, but there has to be a formula to follow so that all of us that are trying to do right can.


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## TJD

http://www.sima.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=201

this is where I got my information on what to apply. thus my 6 bags per acre, which I'm never doing again mind you. 250LBS per acre or 5 bags of 50 pounds per acre


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## Mick76

1olddogtwo;1608292 said:


> On the low end 700/800lbs.


X2... a good general rule of thumb to go by....to make it even easier on small lots 20 lbs per 1000 square feet


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## BC Handyman

If your asking me, I would say rock salt will be 600-1800lb per acre, yes you might need close to a ton per acre.
I personaly never seen a pile of salt left on site at a walmart, I would think walmart would not allow piles of salt left on site, maybe I'm wrong though. I would think you would need to bring in in your spreader each time. Thats how its done around here anyway.


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## 1olddogtwo

We stockpile salt here in chicago at the Walmart. Well I should say in the past we did.


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## yardguy28

Burkartsplow;1608293 said:


> Why are you using bagged product on a lot that size in the first question? You are throwing money out the window by not using bulk. I have always figured out from 500 to 1000 lbs per acre depending on traffic, surface and air temps, how much sun the lot gets and is it on the north or south side of the building and shade. So in your example you put down 7500 lbs of ice melt to service the lot. Now what type of ice melt are you using because rock salt is considered ice melt or are you using calcium? More info would help. And the post about a ton of product per acre seems excessive IMO.


personally I don't do lots that large but I know people who do and they still use bags.

it's called no place to store bulk salt for one thing. and no way to load it is another.

my buddy does lots the size of walmart with his pick up with tailgate spreader. he has no place to store bulk salt or no way to load it. he loads a pallet from the salt store and fills the spreader a bag at a time.

right now my commercial lot is small enough I'm just using a walkbehind spreader but if I add another commercial lot or 2 next season I'm still going with the 50lbs bags.

I know I have no place to store bulk salt and no way to load it.


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## BossPlow2010

you stated you're just starting out. If you don't mind me asking what equipment do you have or plan to use at this Walmart?


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## Burkartsplow

yardguy28;1608373 said:


> personally I don't do lots that large but I know people who do and they still use bags.
> 
> it's called no place to store bulk salt for one thing. and no way to load it is another.
> 
> my buddy does lots the size of walmart with his pick up with tailgate spreader. he has no place to store bulk salt or no way to load it. he loads a pallet from the salt store and fills the spreader a bag at a time.
> 
> right now my commercial lot is small enough I'm just using a walkbehind spreader but if I add another commercial lot or 2 next season I'm still going with the 50lbs bags.
> 
> I know I have no place to store bulk salt and no way to load it.


I understand not being able to store it but does your buddy realize how much money he is losing by using bagged product. If he is making money using bagged product on a lot that size then great but he could probably sub out the salting and make the same amount of money he is now and not having to do any of the work I would think. $65 a ton for rock salt and most likely you are over $200 a ton for bagged and then You have to take into consideration loading the bags. I know how much it sucks as I did it for 10 years but all my lots the were banks and other small businesses so it was not that bad.


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## Mr.Markus

Some reading for you......http://www.smartaboutsalt.com/aboutus


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## G.Landscape

Smaller lots there is always going to be waste because your turning the salter on/off and overlap while turning around. On larger lots you will find you end us spreading less per acre because your running in a more steady pattern. On med size lots 3-10 acres I would say we are around 400-600lbs per acre, at these rates you will need some vehicle traffic to clear right down to the pavement unless you have warm sunny days. Also I should not that is per-treated salt amounts

As Markus pointed out join some local associations they will be a great resource and can provide helpful info/training. Smart About Salt or Sima are a great start


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## yardguy28

Burkartsplow;1608441 said:


> I understand not being able to store it but does your buddy realize how much money he is losing by using bagged product. If he is making money using bagged product on a lot that size then great but he could probably sub out the salting and make the same amount of money he is now and not having to do any of the work I would think. $65 a ton for rock salt and most likely you are over $200 a ton for bagged and then You have to take into consideration loading the bags. I know how much it sucks as I did it for 10 years but all my lots the were banks and other small businesses so it was not that bad.


I don't know it seems a lot of guys in my neck of the woods use bagged salt.

he goes through a pallet/pallet an a half each time he salts. only gets the salt when needed. $7 for a 50lbs bag.

he doesn't load the bags. has the whole pallet forklifted into his truck.


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## Burkartsplow

yardguy28;1608520 said:


> I don't know it seems a lot of guys in my neck of the woods use bagged salt.
> 
> he goes through a pallet/pallet an a half each time he salts. only gets the salt when needed. $7 for a 50lbs bag.
> 
> he doesn't load the bags. has the whole pallet forklifted into his truck.


When I mean load he has to load the bags into the tailgate salter and doing that during a winter storm is no fun. And I dont know where you are located as it says classified but where is he buying bagged salt at $7 a 50lb bag at pallet price. Around here is anywhere from $3.50 to $4.50 per 50lb bag when buying by the pallet and even cheaper when buying multiple pallets. It seems if everyone in your area is using bagged then the pricing has to be high at those costs and seems like if one of your competitors went the bulk salt route could really make a lot of payup with lower material costs and take a lot of business from other snow removal companies.


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## Mr.Markus

Burkartsplow;1608530 said:


> When I mean load he has to load the bags into the tailgate salter and doing that during a winter storm is no fun. And I dont know where you are located as it says classified but where is he buying bagged salt at $7 a 50lb bag at pallet price. Around here is anywhere from $3.50 to $4.50 per 50lb bag when buying by the pallet and even cheaper when buying multiple pallets. It seems if everyone in your area is using bagged then the pricing has to be high at those costs and seems like if one of your competitors went the bulk salt route could really make a lot of payup with lower material costs and take a lot of business from other snow removal companies.


It's Walmart...the pallets are stacked outside the front door....hahaha.


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## underESTIMATED

Apparently no one buys from other contractors. I have no issue paying a slight premium and get the salt loaded for me. Its weighed as its loaded, so im always paying for the exact amount that i get. I measure each site because i know the application rate/site amount per site needed. 

I used bags my first two years and that sucked ass at 3am. I always loaded the night before, but had to refill 1/2 way through the first account. I quickly purchased an in bed spreader for the new truck and couldnt imagine going back to bags again.


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## yardguy28

Burkartsplow;1608530 said:


> When I mean load he has to load the bags into the tailgate salter and doing that during a winter storm is no fun. And I dont know where you are located as it says classified but where is he buying bagged salt at $7 a 50lb bag at pallet price. Around here is anywhere from $3.50 to $4.50 per 50lb bag when buying by the pallet and even cheaper when buying multiple pallets. It seems if everyone in your area is using bagged then the pricing has to be high at those costs and seems like if one of your competitors went the bulk salt route could really make a lot of payup with lower material costs and take a lot of business from other snow removal companies.


we're from IN.

it's not straight salt. it's got calcium in it. I use the exact same stuff he does.

$7 a 50lbs bag with 49 bags on the pallet.

this place is new to us this year. before that we were paying $8 a 50lbs bag with still 49 per pallet.

there is no different price if you by it by the bag or pallet. I bought a pallet at the beginning of winter last december. and since the season is nearing its end I just picked up 10 bags. enough with what I had from the pallet to last me one more storm.


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## TJD

Hopefully we can keep this conversation going I think its good for understanding. Nonetheless, I think ill at least look into the pricing for bulk verses bags.


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## R75419

TJD;1608632 said:


> Hopefully we can keep this conversation going I think its good for understanding. Nonetheless, I think ill at least look into the pricing for bulk verses bags.


Make some friends that have a salt bin and a way to load it. even if you pay them 100/ton if you have a v-box etc you will be money ahead in no time just saving your back and the labor costs of loading a bagged product into a tailgate salter. Another possibility would be to get some very dry bulk salt load it into a salt bin in your truck then shovel it in, a PIA yes but a significant savings!payup


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## BossPlow2010

TJD;1608632 said:


> Hopefully we can keep this conversation going I think its good for understanding. Nonetheless, I think ill at least look into the pricing for bulk verses bags.


What equipment do you have?


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## Burkartsplow

R75419;1608707 said:


> Make some friends that have a salt bin and a way to load it. even if you pay them 100/ton if you have a v-box etc you will be money ahead in no time just saving your back and the labor costs of loading a bagged product into a tailgate salter. Another possibility would be to get some very dry bulk salt load it into a salt bin in your truck then shovel it in, a PIA yes but a significant savings!payup


That is an option, saw a few trucks doing that last storm and it looked worse then bags but a lot cheaper after all said and done.


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## Drakeslayer

TJD;1608276 said:


> Yes this would be for commercial use. For example if a normal size walmart is 30 acres we'd spend nearly 150 bags of 50 pounds on it. Is that still too light? If so what would you recommend..?
> 
> This is for a light storm - i.e. ice 1 inch or under no snow.
> 
> With all that being said I read somewhere where 1 guy mentioned that he would use more than 60 (50 pound) bags to handle 1 acre. If that's true, then I need to go and increase my pricing!


30 acres of wallyworld. Your pricing won't matter, the management company will determine what you are paid for each service.


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## dieselboy01

Subscribed for info.


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## rcn971

The OP is in Maryland, not New Hampshire. He isn't interested in seeking other snow work from the sound of it. I think he is fine with a tailgate spreader based on how much snow they probably get versus the cash outlay of a v-box. Plus as he mentioned, he has no means to load bulk salt. Back to the original question I think that 600-800lbs was a fair estimation, but would also agree that it depends on the conditions of each event.


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## mpriester

one of mine is right around an acre. when the temperatures are somewhat warm 600lbs or a little over is enough but when its cold i have put as high as 1200 pounds on it and charge accordingly. i run bulk and am lucky that a landscape supplier is 2 minutes from my last customer, and they load it right in the truck and its dry. loading from the truck to the spreader is a PIA but for the price difference i'll deal with it. 20lb per 1000sq. ft. is what i base my bids on and it works well. bagged here is $215.00 a pallet and with all the competition the profit margine is no where high enough for me to use it. i keep a ton or so on hand that i have bagged for those sundays when we get a storm and the landscaper is closed. my suggestion is either find a way to store bulk if you don't have a local supplier or wait until your are more equipped to handle a larger lot and make friends with the local landscapers and help each other.


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## yardguy28

some of you guys need to remember the snow amounts and how it's handled are different in each location. you guys who talk up v boxes vs tailgate spreaders may see more opportunities to salt than others. 

I know in IN not every snow gets salt, not every commercial account wants salt every time. 

the commercial lot I do only has me salt the entrance because its on an incline when it snows. that incline takes 2 bags. the lot is plowed at 2" or greater, no salt except the entrance. with little amounts like .5-1 inch it's just the entrance that gets taken care of. salted or if I feel it needs plowed first I'll plow the entrance then salt it. don't think I need a v box for that. I don't even use a tailgate spreader.


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## mpriester

yardguy28;1608838 said:


> some of you guys need to remember the snow amounts and how it's handled are different in each location. you guys who talk up v boxes vs tailgate spreaders may see more opportunities to salt than others.
> 
> I know in IN not every snow gets salt, not every commercial account wants salt every time.
> 
> the commercial lot I do only has me salt the entrance because its on an incline when it snows. that incline takes 2 bags. the lot is plowed at 2" or greater, no salt except the entrance. with little amounts like .5-1 inch it's just the entrance that gets taken care of. salted or if I feel it needs plowed first I'll plow the entrance then salt it. don't think I need a v box for that. I don't even use a tailgate spreader.


what about the walk from their car to the entrance, the car is on the lot and say they slip on ice or slush thats in the lot that you were told not too salt. i would get documents signed that state you are not responsible for the lot or that they said don't salt the lot this time and have an attorney look over those documents because if you have a contract to take care of it and they fall its your butt on the line when that slip and fall gets reported and they will pass the buck. This is only my opinion just be careful your not setting yourself up for a law suit. salts cheap compared to a law suit.


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## TJD

I think I'm going to read that link Markus left behind today. Hopefully I can learn some permanent strategies. I can't believe that you guys are saying I can save half the money by ordering the salt in bulk verses bags. The cost is nearly half if the information provided here is correct... My other plan for today is going to be to call one of the local garden places I get mulch from and find out how much they sale a tonof salt for.


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## yardguy28

don't forget though, the bulk salt doesn't have calcium in it.

i don't know how many guys use ice melt instead of rock salt but around here most go with some form of ice melt with calcium in it.

i'm not sure i know anyone who uses rock salt or salt by the bulk in any form for that matter.


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## TJD

BossPlow2010;1608754 said:


> What equipment do you have?


Salt dogg 600IBS spreader


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## yardguy28

mpriester;1608862 said:


> what about the walk from their car to the entrance, the car is on the lot and say they slip on ice or slush thats in the lot that you were told not too salt. i would get documents signed that state you are not responsible for the lot or that they said don't salt the lot this time and have an attorney look over those documents because if you have a contract to take care of it and they fall its your butt on the line when that slip and fall gets reported and they will pass the buck. This is only my opinion just be careful your not setting yourself up for a law suit. salts cheap compared to a law suit.


well I feel I'm covered properly. there isn't anything in writing to be honest. no paperwork of any kind. just word of mouth like all my work.

I don't believe any of the actually employees even know who I am or have ever seen me there. most of the times I've been there they've been closed. not to mention I don't have a name on my truck unless you count dodge. so how are they going to find any info about me in the first place. these are members of the church I use to go to so I doubt they are gonna pass the buck to me or turn over my info to an employer to sue me.

but yes I agree it is an important thing to consider.


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## BossPlow2010

TJD;1609008 said:


> Salt dogg 600IBS spreader


And what what are you plowing the lot with?


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## BossPlow2010

yardguy28;1609155 said:


> well I feel I'm covered properly. there isn't anything in writing to be honest. no paperwork of any kind. just word of mouth like all my work.
> 
> I don't believe any of the actually employees even know who I am or have ever seen me there. most of the times I've been there they've been closed. not to mention I don't have a name on my truck unless you count dodge. so how are they going to find any info about me in the first place. these are members of the church I use to go to so I doubt they are gonna pass the buck to me or turn over my info to an employer to sue me.
> 
> but yes I agree it is an important thing to consider.


What about a license plate?


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## yardguy28

BossPlow2010;1609199 said:


> What about a license plate?


if they happen to be there and can right the number down fast enough before I leave then I suppose so.

I realize someone could pass the buck onto me but doubt in this particular situation that would happen.

not to mention I've covered my but by salting the areas employees would be walking on the times when it has been slick enough for people to fall.

being they are parishioners of the church I use to attend I don't think they would do that to me. and rest assured should I get another commercial lot everything will be in writing and documented.


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## nepatsfan

This day and age god himself would sue you if he fell.


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## nepatsfan

TJD;1608983 said:


> I think I'm going to read that link Markus left behind today. Hopefully I can learn some permanent strategies. I can't believe that you guys are saying I can save half the money by ordering the salt in bulk verses bags. The cost is nearly half if the information provided here is correct... My other plan for today is going to be to call one of the local garden places I get mulch from and find out how much they sale a tonof salt for.


Be careful what you are putting a proposal together for. Walk before you run.

In a previous post I said a ton per acre- I know that is high as I mentioned in the following post. I try to take a worst case scenario. 1/2 inch to an inch of snow or if you get a decent amount of ice pack during the storm(pre treating helps this)I would go fairly heavy with salt. I charge per application and the lots we do are considerably smaller than a wal-mart or home depot. My biggest lot is 2 acres so in my case I can bid it as if I would be spreading a ton per acre and if I use less it's more money in my pocket. If I was bidding 30 acres my charge per application of salt would probably be way too high. There are other factors too, like how chunky the salt is vs. fines and the weather and snow conditions as mentioned before.

I will say, be careful what you are biting off here. When bidding large lots you really need to have the right equipment and manpower in place already. You do not want to pull up to walmart and expect to plow the place with a pickup truck. It just cannot be done. I would try to pick up some small lots 10-20k square feet. Convenience stores, gas station(they suck but can be handled with a pick up) or even a small apartment complex. Maybe you aren't going after a wal-mart or something of that size but just be careful what you wish for.


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## TJD

Thanks Nepatsfan for making sure I don't go crazy when putting the numbers together. I've talked to a great deal of people on my end of town, as well as this site, since posting this thread. I think in a low-key storm I will start with putting down 1000IBS per acre. I probably will bid with that being my measure for per acre from now on. I may have to go to 1500 for rougher conditions, which would put me in the purchasing bracket of buying a ton anyhow. I'm almost excited to have a chance to try this new method out.


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## BossPlow2010

TJD;1611049 said:


> Thanks Nepatsfan for making sure I don't go crazy when putting the numbers together. I've talked to a great deal of people on my end of town, as well as this site, since posting this thread. I think in a low-key storm I will start with putting down 1000IBS per acre. I probably will bid with that being my measure for per acre from now on. I may have to go to 1500 for rougher conditions, which would put me in the purchasing bracket of buying a ton anyhow. I'm almost excited to have a chance to try this new method out.


Stil wondering what you'll be plowing with....


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## EliteSnow&Ice

BossPlow2010;1611632 said:


> Stil wondering what you'll be plowing with....


I am waiting too.....

Sounds like someone jumped in over his head to be a big time contractor, and its swim or sink time. What the heck i got an old 96 dodge 3/4 ton with a Meyer 7 1/2' blade on it, and my buddy has an 89 Chevy with a 8' western blade, we can plow wally world. Gets us a salt dogg spreader and we can buy are bags for the hardware store, good to go. And if we get in a pinch we can jump on the forms and demand that some one who has been in the game to tell us how its done.


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## AMS77

TJD;1609008 said:


> Salt dogg 600IBS spreader


I'm using the same salter you have. I buy my bulk sat for 76.10 a ton delivered. If you are using 50 lbs bags you would use 40 to make a ton. I think you said you are around 6 or 7 dollars bag that is roughly 250 dollars a ton there is your savings.

As for usage I use any where from 600 to 800 pounds per acre and have good results with rates.

One thing I can say if you run bulk thru that spreader make a screen for the top to screen out the chunks if not I will jam in the feed shoot.


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## TJD

I want to thank everyone for being most informative and helpful as I am always learning even after I have learned. 

EliteSnow&Ice & BossPlow All I can say is WOW.

What I'm plowing with is a truck...

I don't really see how what I'm plowing with has any relation in a forum for "ice management". My plowing experience dates back to the 90's. However, with my area of the world not being as profitable with snow we decided to walk-away from it, and focus on other things.


If I didn't know what I was doing... I surely would not have waited until the last month before spring to come on a website and ask for help; its called staying efficient. "The way of the fool is right in his own eyes, But the wise listeneth to counsel (Proverbs 12:15)" (For This Conversation) this means that you should always seek help even if you think you know it all or you would be the fool. 

I mean really BOSS. Getting private messages about what I plow with adding that others want to know (only 2 ppl) is too much. It raises question on your intent. Obviously it isn't to help.... If so, you've got one weird way of showing it...lol


Anyhow, I think I me and the crew probably threw down 200 pounds to little per acre. Though it was effective for the few storms we had. I wanted to see black pavement effectiveness in less than 1 hour. For that reason I'm willing to throw down some more. I think I also need to change my product too. I notice some of the guys I talk with locally use the MAG Ice melt pellets. We've used good ole rock salt. My thinking was the chunky stuff can absorb more but maybe not. I know it works slower...


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## dfd9

Nice, I think I'm going to grab a bucket of popcorn.


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## nepatsfan

what kind of truck? lol just kidding


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## lucky921

hey what is the going rate for spreading a ton of salt and a 50/50 mix salt and sand thanks


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## yardguy28

$2 and hour and $1 a ton


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## dfd9

yardguy28;1621111 said:


> $2 and hour and $1 a ton


I'll do it for $1.99 and $.99!


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## yardguy28

well if you really want I'll go $1.50 and $.50.


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## dfd9

Lowballer!

BTW, OP, did the 2 who PM'ed you PM you again after you did such a great job of calling them out?


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## Raymond S.

I love these threads! I read the whole thing to see if anyone was going to call YOU out like I was and it took until the third page. You bid a flipping WALMART!!! You don't know how much salt to out down? Are you kidding me? What business do you have bidding on an account like this if you have no idea how much its going to cost you to show up? You don't have anything in writing, you don't have anything more than a license plate on your truck. I'm going out in a limb and I'd guess you don't have liability insurance (could be wrong.) Theres so much wrong with this thread I'm shocked as many people were actually willing to help like they were. 
Thank you for contributing to the ongoing decline in pricing and service standards in the snow and ice removal industry. Sorry, I couldn't think of any good scripture to quote.


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## yardguy28

the ONLY valid point I find in your post is that he doesn't know how much it's going to cost him to show. 

I do snow and ice removal with nothing but a license plate on my truck. which has NOTHING to do with bidding on a job. I do have liability insurance though. I have no idea how much salt covers as far as square footage. I know what it takes to cover my commercial lot in the number of bags. 

that's how we bid jobs. we don't give totals per visit. we bid by giving what we charge per hour to plow, per hour salt and what we charge per bag. so we don't really need to any more than that.

not to mention your not giving constructive criticism.


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## Raymond S.

So you do commercial lots on a verbal agreement too? You don't know how much salt covers 1000 sq ft? How's that work? You drive around putting salt down until it starts to melt? What if its -5 out? What if its 25 out? Still don't know? 
I won't give constructive criticism to a guy that is in over his head and basically said if there's a problem nobody will know how to get ahold of him anyway. Somewhere there's a guy with one less WalMart because a guy that didn't know what he was doing came in and cut his throat.


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## yardguy28

I salt based on what I consider appropriate coverage for the conditions I'm dealing with. not what some mathematical formula says will cover the square feet. that's why I said my commercial lot takes 12-15 bags. most of the times I put down 12 bags over the whole lot. there was a time or two I salted a little heavier in a few spots which is where the extra 3 bags went. 

as for verbal agreements. yes I do ALL business of any kind residential or commercial as verbal agreements. I don't use contracts, service agreements or paper of any kind to seal the deal. 

as for how it works. just great. all my clients are completely happy with my services. I've been in business for 7 years now. my snow removal clients have been the same ones for the past 7 years as well. the commercial lot I got this season is extremely happy with my snow removal service and is ready for me to do it again next year.


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## BossPlow2010

dfd9;1621287 said:


> Lowballer!
> 
> BTW, OP, did the 2 who PM'ed you PM you again after you did such a great job of calling them out?


They realized it was a waste of time arguing because they knew the guy was in over his head.


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## Raymond S.

yardguy28;1622478 said:


> the commercial lot I got *this season *is extremely happy with my snow removal service and is ready for me to do it again next year.


Get back to us in a few years and let us know how that verbal agreement is working out.


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## yardguy28

Raymond S.;1622536 said:


> Get back to us in a few years and let us know how that verbal agreement is working out.


why not just ask all my other commercial clients how the verbal agreement is working out. like the ones that have been with me for 7 years.


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## jrs.landscaping

yardguy28;1622585 said:


> why not just ask all my other *commercial clients* how the verbal agreement is working out. like the ones that have been with me for *7 years*.





yardguy28;1573475 said:


> uh wrong. this is my 7th year plowing. first year with a commercial parking lot.


Homeowners and Commercial accounts are two different things 

Anyone that spreads 2.5 tons in bag form needs a head examination IMHO


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## nepatsfan

Dont use logic with yardguy....i promise you he's not gonna fall for it. He is way too smart for that


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## Raymond S.

Oh come on! You mean he lied? Say it ain't so... He hasn't been plowing commercial lots with a 7 1/2 ft Snoway on his 1/2 ton pickup and salting the entrances with a push spreader for 7 years?


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## gc3

Wallmarts are pretty big, the one by me is around 12 acres if not more. I'd hate to imagine the number of bags of salt thrown in the truck & back and forth just for one salt run.


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## yardguy28

I'm not gonna argue......

it doesn't matter what my accounts are. the point in the end is I know my clients and I know what will work with them. 

I'm a lawn maintenance business. I've done residential and commercial accounts for all kinds of work. mowing, mulch, leaves, snow and ice management. I've never once used any form of paper to seal the deal and its never back fired. it's never been a bad idea. 

so raymonds response of getting back with him in a couple of years to let him know how that verbal agreement is working is pointless. I'll still be working for them in a couple years by a verbal agreement. 

nepatsfan is partially correct. you can't use logic with me. I don't value one members advice over another just because ones been doing it longer than another. I don't feel anything in this business is black and white. I read everyone's posts and decide for myself what makes sense and it has nothing to do with how long you've been in the business.

and no I don't plow with a 7.5 snoway blade on a half ton truck. I plow with a 7.5 boss v blade on a half ton.


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## Raymond S.

yardguy28;1622951 said:


> ...you can't use logic with me


...and now you have the rest of the story. Good Day.


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## dfd9

Raymond S.;1622536 said:


> Get back to us in a few years and let us know how that verbal agreement is working out.


I've had a signed contract with my largest customer for 3 or 4 out of over 40 years.

Your point?


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## yardguy28

dfd9;1622955 said:


> I've had a signed contract with my largest customer for 3 or 4 out of over 40 years.
> 
> Your point?


he's not gonna understand. a pointless argument really. he's one of those that has X amount of years experience and his advice is golden and should be taken. if you don't do it his way your wrong. after all there only one way to do things in this business......:laughing:

in the end I'll let his words go in one ear and out the other and I'll keep doing things my way since they have worked for the 7 years I've been in business so far.

not to mention he doesn't know every single detail of this account. I don't post everything on this site.


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## Raymond S.

So I'm the one that's wrong? You said you have many other commercial accounts you've been doing for 7 years. Yet we find out later you said this is your first year with a commercial account...but you don't want to talk about that. I couldn't care less how you run the "details" of your business but don't come on here trying to give a guy advice about salting a Walmart when you have one lot that requires just over a skid of salt per season applied with a push spreader. If you want to work from a verbal agreement more power to you. You've obviously never been $75k in the hole from a customer before when they start to feel the pinch of a hard winter.


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## basher

EVERYBOBY agrees that documation saves your azz in court, do as you see fit but be prepared to spend big on your first slip and fall.

They won't let me re-link to this but here are calabation tables. they are for road miles 52K sq ft, convert to acres 44K sg ft.

http://www.plowsite.com/showpost.php?p=1056107&postcount=25


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## yardguy28

I'll give my advice when and where I see fit.


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## dfd9

BossPlow2010;1622484 said:


> They realized it was a waste of time arguing because they knew the guy was in over his head.


Yes, because with your VAST experience, you are able to provide such a wealth of information.

I have no idea about Raymond, but I do know that you're not long out of high school and are taking up a new vocation in fire\EMS, so you have a wealth of info to add to this thread.  Other than "What truck you going to plow with Beavis?"

I'm sure none of us have ever been in over our heads on something and look for advice. Which some gave him, but others felt the need to belittle him rather than helping.

How do you know the area the OP is in only gets 3" of snow per year and a pickup is just fine for that? Same goes for salting, if one doesn't receive large amounts of snow regularly, it is difficult to invest in what others deem the proper equipment.

Besides, anyone who needs to PM someone to get info whether the OP wants to divulge it or not needs to grow up. Or just don't read and reply to the thread.

He applied the salt and was not satisfied with the results. He asked for recommendations on how mulch to apply. Then a couple jackwagons take the thread so far off course it is stupid. And this is coming from one who can hijack just about any thread.

Maybe he is inadequately prepared and equipped. Maybe his salting is by the bag and he can apply more and make money. Maybe it doesn't really matter.


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## basher

basher;1622972 said:


> EVERYBODY agrees that documentation saves your azz in court, do as you see fit but be prepared to spend big on your first slip and fall.
> 
> They won't let me re-link to this but here are calibration tables. they are for road miles 52K sq ft, convert to acres 44K sg ft.
> 
> http://www.plowsite.com/showpost.php?p=1056107&postcount=25


Flipping touchscreen keyboards


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