# Averaging 900lbs per Salting - Property Manager wants us to average 3-400. (80,000sf)



## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Our company is well established in the snow removal and salting business. With salting we all know how much must be used varies greatly based on amount of snow/ice, temperature and other conditions.

We have an apartment complex we do the snow removal for (this year is our first year at this location). The total area of the roadways and parking areas measures almost exactly 80,000 sq. ft. 

Today I got an email from the property manager and she stated she is concerned with the amount of salt we have been using so far this season and stated in her email (our average was 300-400 lbs per spread, as high as 800). The lowest amount we have ever used was 450lbs for a minor dusting and the highest we have ever used was 1,350lbs, but over the course of the 11 saltings we have done so far this season, we have averaged amount 900lbs per salting.

When comparing this to our other properties 300-400 lbs does not even make sense. We have averaged 500lbs per salting this season on a 30,000 parking lot for example. (Which is well under half her properties size).

When comparing this account to all of our others we are already using the lowest amount of salt per area then any of our other accounts.

We still used bagged salt which is loaded into tailgate salters, so we do want to lift as few as possible per snow event. 

I am curious as to what you guys think about this request as they are requesting that we drastically reduce our salt usage to a point that I don't feel it will be all all effective. 

Another Note: This account also was the first account since we have been in business that made our company sign a form that said if there is ever a time that anything happens on the property we are at fault if we were negligent. Which makes this request concerning to me.

Thanks in advance for your input.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

wow.......you put your neck in the noose, and now they want you to jump?

tell them to go pound salt.


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## aahicnow (Dec 4, 2014)

Just my opinion But I would say Sure no problem , Ill do that just as soon as you give me a legal document stating that the property manager is assuming all legal responsibility for any incidents resulting from the reduction of salt usage. But of course in proper legalese. The proper manager may not be so willing to reduce the usage if he has to assume responsibility.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

aahicnow;1919256 said:


> Just my opinion But I would say Sure no problem , Ill do that just as soon as you give me a legal document stating that the property manager is assuming all legal responsibility for any incidents resulting from the reduction of salt usage. But of course in proper legalese. The proper manager may not be so willing to reduce the usage if he has to assume responsibility.


I did have a conversation about this with my foreman, we had the same conversation. We are only cutting back to levels that I feel are irresponsible if there is signed documentation from them stating that is what they want.

I honestly believe this amount of salt on this sized property would make things worse, as it would probably slightly melt the top of the snow and then it would refreeze...


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## G.Landscape (Oct 20, 2011)

Apartment complexes are tough because there may be lots in the roadway but you can't always get it in the parking spaces, to get around this we often put more in the roadways so its reasonably clear and hopefully it gets tracked into the spaces. With that in mind our average is around 350lbs per acre (43500sq.ft.).

We base these rates on years of experience, training (Sima & Smart about Salt) and through client expectations. When its -10 and flurries you shouldn't expect the lot to be 100% clear but traffic will move the salt around and clear things up. We may have to do return trips for spot salting depending on weather but that's all factored in.

on the other hand a quick google search found this. http://www.drscw.org/chlorides/PLsarg.pdf seems to fit the property managers expectation.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

G.Landscape;1919280 said:


> Apartment complexes are tough because there may be lots in the roadway but you can't always get it in the parking spaces, to get around this we often put more in the roadways so its reasonably clear and hopefully it gets tracked into the spaces. With that in mind our average is around 350lbs per acre (43500sq.ft.).
> 
> We base these rates on years of experience, training (Sima & Smart about Salt) and through client expectations. When its -10 and flurries you shouldn't expect the lot to be 100% clear but traffic will move the salt around and clear things up. We may have to do return trips for spot salting depending on weather but that's all factored in.
> 
> on the other hand a quick google search found this. http://www.drscw.org/chlorides/PLsarg.pdf seems to fit the property managers expectation.


G, 350lbs per acre still feels a bit low to me, as we tend to average 450-500. However, we are also salting away anything under 1". Do your average figures just figure salting after plowing or minor dustings?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I'd say you are over applying. I have an account that size and I'm at 350-400lbs. That amount works great for me. I'm using bagged Blue Halite or a combo of Blue Halite and Pro-Slicer when temps are colder like this morning. You're not alone though...there are lots of companies over applying.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1919288 said:


> I'd say you are over applying. I have an account that size and I'm at 350-400lbs. That amount works great for me. I'm using bagged Blue Halite or a combo of Blue Halite and Pro-Slicer when temps are colder like this morning. You're not alone though...there are lots of companies over applying.


This account has a set price per pound they pay for salt. We can not afford to use more expensive salt, as the margin is already very slim.

What do those products cost you in comparison?

And just to be clear... you are talking about 7 50lb bags over almost 2 acres of hard surfaces.. that would amount to 3-4 handfulls per 1,000 sq ft.......


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1919292 said:


> This account has a set price per pound they pay for salt. We can not afford to use more expensive salt, as the margin is already very slim.
> 
> What do those products cost you in comparison?
> 
> And just to be clear... you are talking about 7 50lb bags over almost 2 acres of hard surfaces.. that would amount to 3-4 handfulls per 1,000 sq ft.......


Halite- $5/bag and Pro S- $9/bag roughly... And yes, 7 bags, sometimes 5 if it's warm or going to be warm.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1919310 said:


> Halite- $5/bag and Pro S- $9/bag roughly... And yes, 7 bags, sometimes 5 if it's warm or going to be warm.


After speaking to 2 other what I would consider friendly contractors in my area, I respectfully think your nuts. I am not sure how much salting you do, however between the 3 of us we make up about half of the snow removal in our area. Both said they would have averaged between 1,400-2,000lbs for that sized property per salting.

I also contacted my salt supplier (who is more then just a supplier that wants me to use salt, we also have a personal relationship) and he laughed saying the property manager is nuts.

I am interested in others thoughts, as there is clearly some very different opinions here already.


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## G.Landscape (Oct 20, 2011)

lawnlandscape;1919285 said:


> G, 350lbs per acre still feels a bit low to me, as we tend to average 450-500. However, we are also salting away anything under 1". Do your average figures just figure salting after plowing or minor dustings?


the 350lbs per acres is an average including minor dustings , we do plow at 1". If its cold (-10 to -15 celsius) and trying to salt 1" of snow away the lot won;t be clear with 350lbs per acre, you will definitely need more.

Also a big factor (Dare i say huge) is asphalt condition. On new asphalt the salt brine will flow and cover a large area vs a old cracked parking lot where the brine doesn't travel as far.

Sooooo many conditions its hard to give a fair comparison. You may have to try a lower rate on one storm and see how it goes, just keep on eye on the property and be prepared for a second application if it doesn't go well.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Somebody must have been listening to JAA, since he is down to 70#\acre. 

But he is also a consultant and not a snow contractor anymore. For a reason. 

She's nuts, others are nuts. On a perfect day in March? Sure. 

On a snowy day in January or February? Fat chance.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

tell em if they want you to use an amount that wouldnt even be effective fine but rip up that contract that says you are responsible for everything and make a new one saying youre not responsible for anything now


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1919314 said:


> After speaking to 2 other what I would consider friendly contractors in my area, I respectfully think your nuts. I am not sure how much salting you do, however between the 3 of us we make up about half of the snow removal in our area. Both said they would have averaged between 1,400-2,000lbs for that sized property per salting.
> 
> I also contacted my salt supplier (who is more then just a supplier that wants me to use salt, we also have a personal relationship) and he laughed saying the property manager is nuts.
> 
> I am interested in others thoughts, as there is clearly some very different opinions here already.


Haha...that's fine. Like was said, conditions vary from site to site. In this industry there is a gross over use of salt, it actually pisses me off. Of course the salt suppliers want you to use as much as possible, thats a no brainer.


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## nighthawk117 (Nov 29, 2008)

lawnlandscape;1919237 said:


> Our company is well established in the snow removal and salting business. With salting we all know how much must be used varies greatly based on amount of snow/ice, temperature and other conditions.
> 
> We have an apartment complex we do the snow removal for (this year is our first year at this location). The total area of the roadways and parking areas measures almost exactly 80,000 sq. ft.
> 
> ...


If you know all of this then why are you asking others there thoughts ?? Seems pretty simple to me, no one else knows the conditions, pavement temps, moisture content of the snow , air temps, time of day, moon alignment wherever your conducting business. A property "manager" is attempting to tell you how much product to use in a lbs/k formula ?? Really :laughing:


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

We average in the area of 450 pounds per acre for the whole season. In a warmer climate. I think they're slightly off their rocker if they think you can cover it with 400 pounds at most.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

nighthawk117;1919364 said:


> If you know all of this then why are you asking others there thoughts ?? Seems pretty simple to me, no one else knows the conditions, pavement temps, moisture content of the snow , air temps, time of day, moon alignment wherever your conducting business. A property "manager" is attempting to tell you how much product to use in a lbs/k formula ?? Really :laughing:


Well, she did not specifically say how many lbs per acre to use... lol...

She just said our property has taken an average of 3-400lbs total in the past, and I figured it out.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1919327 said:


> Haha...that's fine. Like was said, conditions vary from site to site. In this industry there is a gross over use of salt, it actually pisses me off. Of course the salt suppliers want you to use as much as possible, thats a no brainer.


I have concluded that you don't do very much salting and don't know the industry well. We service many zero tolerance accounts such as BioLife.

You show up at BioLife's 52,000 sq. ft. parking lot with your 4 bags of salt and spread it. Then tell them wait and they will see it starting to work once the temperature gets up to 32 degrees in a few days. But you better comp prepared with a suggestion of how they should handle the 2,000 people and cars that are going to show up in the meantime....


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## nighthawk117 (Nov 29, 2008)

Okay, here ya go! Ask her for an application chart on official letterhead addressed to your company stating rates to be applied and product to be used and when to use it, both of you can sign and date it, send it to your attorney for review and bingo ! Problem solved  
Honestly, let her know that you really appreciate her concern, but ultimately as the service provider you are responsible for liability and will apply product as needed to provide safe conditions, period .


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

I sent a relatively long winded email (longer than you guys would care to read), but here is how it ends:

_At the end of the day, you are our customer and we will.cater to your wishes. However, spreading 3-400lbs (that is only 6-8 50lb bags) of salt on average over the 1.84 acres of hard surfaces at ____________ would be irresponsible and dangerous. I would strongly prefer you remove salting from the services we provide instead of seeing that requirement, because what would happen would be that the salt will not be sufficient to completely melt off hard surfaces and what would result would be partial melting then refreezing as ice which will be far more dangerous than not salting.

If you would like us to lower the amount of salt we are using at ___________ to levels that we honestly feel are extremely risky and dangerous, we would request this request to us be sent in writing which includes the maximum amount of salt we are able to use per salting, the pound range you would like your salting to fall between and language that states if we did salt within your specified guidelines and there is an incident because of it that we are not responsible.

Thank you for your understanding._


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1919634 said:


> I have concluded that you don't do very much salting and don't know the industry well. We service many zero tolerance accounts such as BioLife.
> 
> You show up at BioLife's 52,000 sq. ft. parking lot with your 4 bags of salt and spread it. Then tell them wait and they will see it starting to work once the temperature gets up to 32 degrees in a few days. But you better comp prepared with a suggestion of how they should handle the 2,000 people and cars that are going to show up in the meantime....


You are correct, I don't do a lot of salting. I do however know the industry. I also know what works for me, so I'm good with that. You are obviously way more knowledgeable than me with your ZERO tolerance accounts...


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1919677 said:


> You are correct, I don't do a lot of salting. I do however know the industry. I also know what works for me, so I'm good with that. You are obviously way more knowledgeable than me with your ZERO tolerance accounts...��


WIPen, I am really not trying to be a jerk.. (seriously)... but please do not comment on things that you are not qualified to comment on.

Our company goes through 45 tons+ per year in salt. Every single one of our accounts is priced per visit except this one account I am talking about here.

We never want to use more salt than what is needed to get the job done, because we would be eating it.

But when you come in here talking about spreading 350lbs over on almost 2 acres as an average, you are completely dumbing down the conversation.

The value of this forum is to give advise to others in areas that you are qualified in . If you don't do a lot of salting, please do not attempt to offer guidance or advise when it comes to it.

^^ this may be part of the reason why I have 300 posts in 6 years and you have 3,000.

I was a smaller company once too. I will never say I have all the answers, but all I am asking is that you respectfully give guidance and advise in areas where you are educated and/or experienced.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1919701 said:


> WIPen, I am really not trying to be a jerk.. (seriously)... but please do not comment on things that you are not qualified to comment on.
> 
> Our company goes through 45 tons+ per year in salt. Every single one of our accounts is priced per visit except this one account I am talking about here.
> 
> ...


I was simply telling you that I plow and salt a similar sized lot and use 350lbs of bagged salt when I salt the lot. I think 30 yrs of experience qualifies me to comment. Like I told you earlier...you are over applying.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Check out the application rates in this article!Dont let her see these numbers.. It's in the fairy tale section.75 lbs per acre  I guess I can cut my 8 ton route down to 1200 lbs! payup
http://www.snowmagazineonline.com/snow-0911-application-strategies.aspx


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I think I'm guilty of oversalting. I went through 160 ton last year. I have run into this with property managers before but I am very low key about it. A simple request for it in in writing won't absolve you of liability, it may shift the percentage away from you but you are still selling them a treatment service. I don't think 900# is out of line, I'd be within a 100# of that, and as others have stated conditions vary. I too have noticed the difference in new and old asphalt... Even places that seal coat their surfaces see lower application rates.


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## G.Landscape (Oct 20, 2011)

leigh;1919790 said:


> Check out the application rates in this article!Dont let her see these numbers.. It's in the fairy tale section.75 lbs per acre  I guess I can cut my 8 ton route down to 1200 lbs! payup
> http://www.snowmagazineonline.com/snow-0911-application-strategies.aspx


This is a very confusing article because they are likely translating a DOT study which is concerned about salt per lane mile (or KM) to an acreage. Because of the high traffic rates and speed of travel road application rates are much lower. Not a comparable source. If yo are looking for info to supply the super check out SIMA or a similar association but they are generally vague on actual quantities.


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## G.Landscape (Oct 20, 2011)

Mr.Markus;1919792 said:


> I think I'm guilty of oversalting. I went through 160 ton last year. I have run into this with property managers before but I am very low key about it. A simple request for it in in writing won't absolve you of liability, it may shift the percentage away from you but you are still selling them a treatment service. I don't think 900# is out of line, I'd be within a 100# of that, and as others have stated conditions vary. I too have noticed the difference in new and old asphalt... Even places that seal coat their surfaces see lower application rates.


How many acres are you salting per event?


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

We avg out around 7-800 lbs/acre. We anti-ice around 300lbs. When winter is in full swing I'd rather over apply and leave residue for next storm then under apply and have liability situation.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

leigh;1919790 said:


> Check out the application rates in this article!Dont let her see these numbers.. It's in the fairy tale section.75 lbs per acre  I guess I can cut my 8 ton route down to 1200 lbs! payup
> http://www.snowmagazineonline.com/snow-0911-application-strategies.aspx


Yes, the inventor of snow has spoken.

He's an idiot.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan;1919734 said:


> I was simply telling you that I plow and salt a similar sized lot and use 350lbs of bagged salt when I salt the lot. I think 30 yrs of experience qualifies me to comment. Like I told you earlier...you are over applying.


Without seeing the lot there is no way in God's green earth you can tell him he is overapplying.

What if it is a north facing slope that is shaded heavily?

There's guys here that spread more salt in a night than you do in a season that would dispute your statement. We spread more than 350# a night on sidewalks.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

G.Landscape;1919957 said:


> How many acres are you salting per event?


How many acres are you?

12 acres on a pickup load (2 yard) is almost comical, unless you are pre salting / anti icing

Maybe in November and late March but not when it's -15 and overcast all day


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

We have 60 8/9 yard salt trucks. I couldnt tell ya how much we spread in a night, I just one would show up soon for this lot.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

G.Landscape;1919957 said:


> How many acres are you salting per event?


This year I'm just shy of 7 acres.
Not including private drives.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

People's expectations are all different. Some people need everything black by morning and others don't care if it takes all day. I did over apply yesterday by a good margin but with the cold temps it looks as though pretty much everyone did. With these flurries coming through right now the over application makes me feel good. I don't have 30 years of experience though.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

JD Dave;1920167 said:


> People's expectations are all different. Some people need everything black by morning and others don't care if it takes all day. I did over apply yesterday by a good margin but with the cold temps it looks as though pretty much everyone did. With these flurries coming through right now the over application makes me feel good. I don't have 30 years of experience though.


I bet that hurts too.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;1920167 said:


> People's expectations are all different. Some people need everything black by morning and others don't care if it takes all day. I did over apply yesterday by a good margin but with the cold temps it looks as though pretty much everyone did. With these flurries coming through right now the over application makes me feel good. I don't have 30 years of experience though.


Your lack of hair says otherwise.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

leigh;1919790 said:


> Check out the application rates in this article!Dont let her see these numbers.. It's in the fairy tale section.75 lbs per acre  I guess I can cut my 8 ton route down to 1200 lbs! payup
> http://www.snowmagazineonline.com/snow-0911-application-strategies.aspx


I'd love to see a snowstorm where 75 pounds per acre is adequate to melt anything.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Lot is roughly 1.5 acres. Was plowed and then salted at 5:30am. Temps were around -3F. I used 4 bags Blue Halite mixed with 3 bags of Pro Slicer on the lot...so 350lbs on the lot. I used 40lbs of Pro Slicer in a 5 gal. bucket thrown by hand for all the walk areas...about 400 linear ft. Pictures were taken 30 min ago. Temps currently in single digits.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Next pics are of north side parking areas. Snow is blowing off the building currently, but should mostly melt as the day moves on.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;1920189 said:


> Your lack of hair says otherwise.


It's true. Everyone calls me sir now.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

JD Dave;1920443 said:


> It's true. Everyone calls me sir now.


There are plenty of other things I call you and sir is not one of them............tymusic


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;1920443 said:


> It's true. Everyone calls me sir now.


Guess I'm not part of "everyone". Lol


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## G.Landscape (Oct 20, 2011)

Triple L;1920141 said:


> How many acres are you?
> 
> 12 acres on a pickup load (2 yard) is almost comical, unless you are pre salting / anti icing
> 
> Maybe in November and late March but not when it's -15 and overcast all day


lol....First: 2 yards on a pickup is for another thread discussion.

Secondly: I agree that when its -15 and overcast all day you will need a hell of alot more to get a black lot. on the other hand we frequently put 1 yard on a 6 acre lot which has a black lot expectation.....to each their own.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

G.Landscape;1920721 said:


> lol....First: 2 yards on a pickup is for another thread discussion.
> 
> Secondly: I agree that when its -15 and overcast all day you will need a hell of alot more to get a black lot. on the other hand we frequently put 1 yard on a 6 acre lot which has a black lot expectation.....to each their own.


That works out to one pound of salt per 135 sq ft. So if you had a 4' wide sidewalk 34' long you could cover that with one pound of salt? I think the problem is,at least my problem is that I honestly have no idea how many acres my lots are and no clue how much I spread per lot! And I've been doing this for 25 years lol.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

leigh;1920970 said:


> That works out to one pound of salt per 135 sq ft. So if you had a 4' wide sidewalk 34' long you could cover that with one pound of salt? I think the problem is,at least my problem is that I honestly have no idea how many acres my lots are and no clue how much I spread per lot! And I've been doing this for 25 years lol.


Once you hit 30 years, you'll be all set.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1920978 said:


> Once you hit 30 years, you'll be all set.


Maybe I'll go into a coma so the time passes by faster!Wake me up in five years, or when bird buys a brand new truck.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I don't know where you're located, "Wisconsin" covers a pretty wide range of temps and expectations. Here in southeastern Wisconsin Milwaukee and Waukesha we average over the course of the Season "warm" and "cold" snows 700 lbs per acre, but what do I know, we only spread 50ish tons per event...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Longae29;1921007 said:


> we only spread 50ish tons per event...


That's a **** ton of salt. How many acres are you guys covering?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

John_DeereGreen;1921117 said:


> That's a **** ton of salt. How many acres are you guys covering?


50ton divided by 700 (Lbs per acre) = 142.8571428571429 acres.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF;1921218 said:


> 50ton divided by 700 (Lbs per acre) = 142.8571428571429 acres.


He's from Ohio, give him a break.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1921220 said:


> He's from Ohio, give him a break.


Did my good deed of the year 3days ago, it's a slippery slope down from here unless there's 700-900lbs per acre of salt on it to slow me down.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

Well the best way in the world to know if you are over applying is just like the John A. article stated, if the lot is white with residue the next day, then you can probably cut back on the amount you use. If that is NOT THE CASE, and you are achieving the results YOU require of yourself for liability reasons, then I would respectfully tell the PM that you are doing it correctly. If she still persist in having you cut back, than I wouldn't even give her the option of assuming liability, I would tell her to find another contractor. Even if she were to "sign" away your liability, that DOESN'T mean that you won't still be dragged into court should something happen, just means your attorney should have an easier time LIMITING your share of the payout. I would let her become someone else's headache. This has always been a huge pet peeve of mine. People would NEVER go to their cardiologist and try to tell him/her how to perform their open heart surgery next week, but they SURE want to micromanage how we cut their grass or plow their snow. Pisses me off.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

BUFF;1921218 said:


> 50ton divided by 700 (Lbs per acre) = 142.8571428571429 acres.


Well, I was going to do that kind of math, but he also said average of 700 pounds per acre...across the whole season.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

John_DeereGreen;1921293 said:


> Well, I was going to do that kind of math, but he also said average of 700 pounds per acre...across the whole season.


I'm hung on the cost of 50ton of salt per event.......


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## AccuCon (Jan 31, 2013)

300lbs of MgCl2 treated NaCl per acre works for me...Though temperatures and conditions etc. factor in...Sometimes its a AM and a PM so thats 600lbs per acre in a 24 hour event...

The amount of factors involved is insane...

I think someone said it right, if your lots are white the next day you are using too much if they are black and dry you hit the sweet spot!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

So Lawnandscape, what response did you get from your email? Also, you said this account is an apartment complex, do you use most of the salt in the drive lanes? Do tenants move their vehicles from unplowed areas to plowed areas? Do you salt these areas at different times after clearing the snow? How do you handle the vehicles with regards to a light snow event where you are just relying on salt to remove the snow or ice? 

I would also like to know where in the heck your 2 friendly competitors would put 1400-2000lbs?? On top of the cars?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF;1921329 said:


> I'm hung on the cost of 50ton of salt per event.......


Takes money to make money.

That's medium to large size for the most part in a populated area. At least by me it is. There's a handful by me that probably do 2 or 3 times that amount.

I think we did close to 300 during our ice storm last December.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Site I was on last season was in excess of 60 Tons per app....Used well over 5500 tons for the season on just that site.........payup


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1921605 said:


> Takes money to make money.
> 
> That's medium to large size for the most part in a populated area. At least by me it is. There's a handful by me that probably do 2 or 3 times that amount.
> 
> I think we did close to 300 during our ice storm last December.


First to have to print the money........

Being a small operation those numbers are beyond me and I'm completely good with that. Also salt/de-icer is not used at the amounts they are elsewhere mainly due to the sun, big swings in our temps and there seems to be a higher tolerance to snow in general out west.


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## Team_Arctic (Feb 24, 2008)

And the response was.... That is almost exactly how I would have handled it. THe only other option you would have is Sand salt mix. But since it sounds like you are using a tailgate spreader this may be harder for you to do. I have a similar apartment that does not like to spend money. but they want it to look like it never snowed. They actually started requesting that I only use machines that have a small enough blade that they dont span over the water runs in the pavement because it leaves small amounts of snow from the blade bridging. Good luck... and next year raise your price to what you feel it is truly worth to you.


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## Maleko (Sep 20, 2004)

AccuCon;1921352 said:


> 300lbs of MgCl2 treated NaCl per acre works for me...Though temperatures and conditions etc. factor in...Sometimes its a AM and a PM so thats 600lbs per acre in a 24 hour event...
> 
> The amount of factors involved is insane...
> 
> I think someone said it right, if your lots are white the next day you are using too much if they are black and dry you hit the sweet spot!


I'm guilty, mine are white the next day prob 75% of the time along with about 75% of other guys lots. So I guess my whole area is pretty much guilty of over applying. It's seems like 75% of everyone over salts and there's always that 25% of guys who never seem to salt .

There are times when I salt after an event and the next day or two we will get a dusting and my lot is already melted from the salting I did to heavy. Ugh. I need to try to cut back. I just get rammy and don't want any ice left anywhere. But it comes back against me when I could have got another salt run in at times


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Defcon 5;1921611 said:


> Site I was on last season was in excess of 60 Tons per app....Used well over 5500 tons for the season on just that site.........payup


Yep we had one of those last year.

Scary thing is they Paid for salt at the beginning of the year. All we had to do is call and tell them to bring more in

We already got 2 semis of mag for this season


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Wait wait wait...a 2 acre site wants 7-8 bags salt?.....Just salt roadways light, in between lanes of parking moderate, and intersections heavy


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

WIPensFan;1921447 said:


> So Lawnandscape, what response did you get from your email? Also, you said this account is an apartment complex, do you use most of the salt in the drive lanes? Do tenants move their vehicles from unplowed areas to plowed areas? Do you salt these areas at different times after clearing the snow? How do you handle the vehicles with regards to a light snow event where you are just relying on salt to remove the snow or ice?
> 
> I would also like to know where in the heck your 2 friendly competitors would put 1400-2000lbs?? On top of the cars?


Are you going to answer questions, and finish the thread? Did you lose the account?


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1920438 said:


> Next pics are of north side parking areas. Snow is blowing off the building currently, but should mostly melt as the day moves on.


See.. Mostly melt as the day moves on and salting at 5am and have it finally work competely by the afternoon is not acceptable results for 95% of our salting customers. During open hours, they want it to melt NOW! (Or yesterday)


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Longae29;1921007 said:


> I don't know where you're located, "Wisconsin" covers a pretty wide range of temps and expectations. Here in southeastern Wisconsin Milwaukee and Waukesha we average over the course of the Season "warm" and "cold" snows 700 lbs per acre, but what do I know, we only spread 50ish tons per event...


I'm in Sheboygan.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1932815 said:


> See.. Mostly melt as the day moves on and salting at 5am and have it finally work competely by the afternoon is not acceptable results for 95% of our salting customers. During open hours, they want it to melt NOW! (Or yesterday)


Noon is when I went and took the picture just for you...you're welcome. Probably melted off at 7- 7:30ish. The apartments want it melted off immediately?? That would surprise me. So what did you end up doing? You sent her the email and what happened?


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1924391 said:


> Are you going to answer questions, and finish the thread? Did you lose the account?


Stopped getting emails on the thread.... I'm replying now since your keeping me awake... lol.. Looking up the email from the property manager, so I can quote it.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1932836 said:


> Stopped getting emails on the thread.... I'm replying now since your keeping me awake... lol.. Looking up the email from the property manager, so I can quote it.


Sorry man, tell me tomorrow.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1932834 said:


> Noon is when I went and took the picture just for you...you're welcome. Probably melted off at 7- 7:30ish. The apartments want it melted off immediately?? That would surprise me. So what did you end up doing? You sent her the email and what happened?


I'm getting that for you now. Honestly, I don't care what the apartments say they want. What they had me sign was extremely clear. Anything happens its MY fault. I'm not taking any chances.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1932840 said:


> I'm getting that for you now. Honestly, I don't care what the apartments say they want. What they had me sign was extremely clear. Anything happens its MY fault. I'm not taking any chances.


Yeah but why would you sign something like that??


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

*UPDATE: (sorry its late)*

*Here was my response from the property manager:*

_I am looking over your email you sent earlier in regards to salting- thank you for breaking it down for me, the amount seemed pretty high to me when comparing to last year, however I have not looked back at years prior. Last year the snow removal was not done very well, but there were a few times that I had to sprinkle salt down myself in front of the buildings. I spoke with the mail lady yesterday and she commented how slick all the roads/driveways/walkways/etc were in general, and said that ____________ was the best when comparing to other properties in regards to not being slick, so that is good, and what is most important. Please continue to do what you are doing._


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1932842 said:


> Yeah but why would you sign something like that??


Long story, I forced them to change to wording to we are responsible IF we are negligent, or told them to find another contractor. Call me sometime if you want. lol


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1932844 said:


> *UPDATE: (sorry its late)*
> 
> *Here was my response from the property manager:*
> 
> _I am looking over your email you sent earlier in regards to salting- thank you for breaking it down for me, the amount seemed pretty high to me when comparing to last year, however I have not looked back at years prior. Last year the snow removal was not done very well, but there were a few times that I had to sprinkle salt down myself in front of the buildings. I spoke with the mail lady yesterday and she commented how slick all the roads/driveways/walkways/etc were in general, and said that ____________ was the best when comparing to other properties in regards to not being slick, so that is good, and what is most important. Please continue to do what you are doing._


Well, that's good to hear. So it sounds like you're covering yourself and keeping everybody happy.

BTW, on my account, I plow off any snow more than .5" so I am never trying to melt 1" or 1.5". Also there are lots of Oak trees and other sensitive plants on this property. It gets salted quite a bit so I use a good product and try to use as little as possible to get the job done.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1932858 said:


> Well, that's good to hear. So it sounds like you're covering yourself and keeping everybody happy.
> 
> BTW, on my account, I plow off any snow more than .5" so I am never trying to melt 1" or 1.5". Also there are lots of Oak trees and other sensitive plants on this property. It gets salted quite a bit so I use a good product and try to use as little as possible to get the job done.


As others have said, every property is different.

This is an account where they want everything from a dusting salted away, but only want us to plow if it reaches 1". So, there are times when we are attempting to salt away almost a complete inch, and you know what some of the temps have been this year.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1932860 said:


> As others have said, every property is different.
> 
> This is an account where they want everything from a dusting salted away, but only want us to plow if it reaches 1". So, there are times when we are attempting to salt away almost a complete inch, and you know what some of the temps have been this year.


That's why you need a product that will work in lower temps, you could always mix a few bags in and not use so much bulk. Have you looked into bulk Snow-Slicer? Same as Pro-Slicer bags but in bulk.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

WIPensFan;1932872 said:


> That's why you need a product that will work in lower temps, you could always mix a few bags in and not use so much bulk. Have you looked into bulk Snow-Slicer? Same as Pro-Slicer bags but in bulk.


Really cant afford to spend anymore per pound of salt or spend time mixing for an account that chewed me down as far as I would go before walking away.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

WIPensFan;1932872 said:


> That's why you need a product that will work in lower temps, you could always mix a few bags in and not use so much bulk. Have you looked into bulk Snow-Slicer? Same as Pro-Slicer bags but in bulk.


Adding Slicer cuts my salt usage in half in the Tail gate spreader Now in V box I run a pretreated w/cal grit with the salt Load that with a Skidsteer. 
Tailgate bag and bucket its load.

I'm putting down about the same rate as you in the tail gate. I only add the slicer for temps below 10*

Im a small time guy I treat around 25 acres after it been plowed and 3 of them are 5 acre lots
Plus I pretreat 10 acres

34 years in business Time fly's when you are having fun


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## Owner/operator (Feb 22, 2021)

WIPensFan said:


> I'd say you are over applying. I have an account that size and I'm at 350-400lbs. That amount works great for me. I'm using bagged Blue Halite or a combo of Blue Halite and Pro-Slicer when temps are colder like this morning. You're not alone though...there are lots of companies over applying.


Glad to see your logic here...my math is 348 per acre..and all my research says most people are over salting...hence my latest thread...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Owner/operator said:


> Glad to see your logic here...my math is 348 per acre..and all my research says most people are over salting...hence my latest thread...


His logic was 6 years ago, hes retired and senile now....


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> His logic was 6 years ago, hes retired and senile now....


I really have no argument for this…but I was of semi sound mind 6 years ago. Save the planet, don't over apply salt!!


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## Owner/operator (Feb 22, 2021)

Mr.Markus said:


> His logic was 6 years ago, hes retired and senile now....


Yeah....but salt is salt and snow is snow...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Owner/operator said:


> Yeah....but salt is salt and snow is snow...


Great point!
Only @Mark Oomkes and @Hydromaster could argue this point. It would be a whirlwind of memes and Yahoo articles. Let's hope they let sleeping dogs lye.


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## Owner/operator (Feb 22, 2021)

WIPensFan said:


> Great point!
> Only @Mark Oomkes and @Hydromaster could argue this point. It would be a whirlwind of memes and Yahoo articles. Let's hope they let sleeping dogs lye.


I'm going to stick with my math of 8# per 1000 sqft


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Owner/operator said:


> I'm going to stick with my math of 8# per 1000 sqft


In a perfect world...sure. But if your customers are happy with the results, great.

You ever get snow at the rate of an inch plus per hour at 6 AM? Temps below 15°? Or 20° for that matter?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Yes, agreed. Every region is different and every site is different. Broken down farther to every site has different areas within that same site…shady vs sunny…high traffic vs low or no traffic. Just as some examples. Also, certain accounts will demand an amount on their contract. Maybe you can change their minds with one product over another or better plows removing more snow each scrape. Again, just examples. It gets complicated because who will be on the hook for slip and fall incidents right?? You know, when things get taken to court, I’m sure things could get very specific about application rates and timing and such. Never dealt with it in my career so I’m speculating.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> In a perfect world...sure. But if your customers are happy with the results, great.
> 
> You ever get snow at the rate of an inch plus per hour at 6 AM? Temps below 15°? Or 20° for that matter?


Louisville is warmer, no?


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## Owner/operator (Feb 22, 2021)

Freshwater said:


> Louisville is warmer, no?


We are in a river valley....in the 70's & 80's we had a foot or two in November that may last for a week , now we don't get any until the end of January. and it might last 3-5 days. And quite a few freezing rains.


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## Owner/operator (Feb 22, 2021)

Mark Oomkes said:


> In a perfect world...sure. But if your customers are happy with the results, great.
> 
> You ever get snow at the rate of an inch plus per hour at 6 AM? Temps below 15°? Or 20° for that matter?


I understand the temperature, type of snow and ground temp variables.....I just noticed everyone had sooo many variables that it confused me a little and such extremes in those....but yet I know we are not Wisconsin or Michigan....and like landscaping I'm big on follow ups....especially until I'm more comfortable with snow fighting


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## jbsplow (Sep 16, 2013)

Just give them a price


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