# Sidewalk liquid deicer



## Bow Hunter TJ

This is my fist post and yes this question has been asked several times... The problem is most of the answers come in the form of give me a call and I will tell you what I sell! 

I work a 3800 house retirment neighborhood where most of the people or 60 or better.. I am looking for some type of chemical that will melt any missed snow and ice and keep it from refreezing at night. It needs to be eviro friendly and really work. I would like to spray it with the standard 26 gallon electric spot sprayer that I have mounted on My ATV.. I have seen people talking about ice ban and have looked at other products including deicenator that makes some pretty good claims!! Any help would be super!!


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## JCurtis

The product you are looking for is called Caliber 

They have different formulations, like for applying to sidewalks, or another for spraying salt piles. I think its Caliber 1000 and 2000

I don't have the link off hand but I am sure you can find it by doing a search here.


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## Bow Hunter TJ

Thanks J!! I found the caliber site and it looks pretty good, I followed another link to Global Technologies and found NC 3000 which I guess is caliber but with another name.. If this stuff will do what they claim it should be exactly what I am looking for!!

Has anyone ever used either of these products by themselves to deice??


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## HerkFE

*Also check out Magic*

There is another product called Magic that is made by the same company as Caliber. Slightly less expensive but is brown in color vice clear.


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## Bow Hunter TJ

I have checked into both of these products, and they seem very economical, the only problem is that they both are mostly salt or some type of compound very close to salt.. The community is very strict and will not allow salt to be used on even the steepest hills of the road system... so They will certanly not allow a product that is mostly salt to be used on the drives and sidwalks.

The NC-3000 is looking like the best stuff so far, it is made from corn by products and is supposed to be comeply safe for lakes and streams and has no corrosive effects on metal and will not damage concrete. and it is alot less expensive than similar products (About Half) But it is about twice as much as caliber and magic.... 

The guy in Ohio who sells this stuff sells Caliber too and he told me the Caliber will work better and quicker than the 3000 but I would prob never get the board to approve the use of it after they see the MSDS sheet. By the way the guys that handle the road systems are allowed to use Ice- Ban which has it headquarters in VA Beach but has no distributers in VA!! 

VDOT uses some type of pre wett on their salt but I am not sure what it is?? 


Anyway does anyone know anything about the NC-3000


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## plowking35

Salt is sodium chloride, these products have magnesium chloride in them. So actually there isnt any salt. If you trully want chloride free products, look into CMA, it contains acetate, not chloride.
Dino


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## Aspen Snow

NC-3000 is a none chloride product.


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## JCurtis

Liquid Magic and Caliber are EPA approved in NY for use in watershed areas ( as far as I know) NY is pretty strict, you may want to double check and see if they have been cleared for VA.


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## szorno

Lets see if I can summarize-
Mag Chloride- good stuff, and in-expensive, but still contains chlorides. Much much less harmful than salt.

Caliber- mag base with vegetable product. Some chlorides, but not near what straigh mag has. About 60% more $ than mag

NC3000- Pure vegetable melt. Works down well below 0 degrees F. Even more expensive.

CMA- Calcium Magnesium Acetate- the stuff they use on airport runways. No corrosion but really expensive. 

Magic- not sure what the liquid is. Not readily available in our market

Its kinda like hot rod cars. How fast do you want to go?? ... How much money do you have?

I would try to get them to look at regular Mag Chloride. We have used it for 4 years with no significant grass or vegetation problems. Caliber is my second choice. The vegetable enhancements really reduce the chloride and increase the effectiveness at lower (-10 F) temps. Better see what you can get in quantities you are thinking of too. With liquids, your supplier is you life-blood. Get a good one !


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## HerkFE

The question you need to ask is why won't the community allow salt? Is it the damage that it can cause? Take a look at Magic treated salt and you will see that it actually makes salt non-corrosive (less $$ in sander maintenance) and it is NY DEC approved, and they are pretty particular about approving anything that can cause environmental damage.

Drop a note to "Taconic" on here for more info, he will be able to give you more info on availability, etc in your area.


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## Bow Hunter TJ

> _Originally posted by plowking35 _
> *Salt is sodium chloride, these products have magnesium chloride in them. So actually there isnt any salt. If you trully want chloride free products, look into CMA, it contains acetate, not chloride.
> Dino *


WOW!!! CMA is totally out of the question!! It is used by most airports, but is not really designed to melt Ice and snow it just keeps it from sticking to anything.. But the $7200.00 a ton really grabs your attention!!


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## Mark Oomkes

Most of the technical side has been covered pretty well. If they really want 0 salt, the product you want is NC3000. It works very well. We used it in a sculpture park last year in conjunction with brooms and had 0 damage to grass, sculptures worth over a million dollars (each). 

The problem I see is the 25 gal spot sprayer. This is the way we did it last year. It worked OK, but not great. We had to go over the sidewalks 2X to get fairly decent coverage. Not great coverage. The pump on those type sprayers do not have enough volume to cover the walk entirely, especially given the weight per gallon of ANY of these products. The highest volume 12V pump I have been able to find is 9 GPM. And then you have to have the electric system to run it continually, which I doubt any ATV has. A Mule or Polaris' whatever might, but not a 4-wheeler. 

With regards to Magic making salt non-corrosive, can somebody explain what happens when moisture (snow) removes the coating of Magic from the pellet of salt. Are you not left with a pellet of uncoated salt then? If this is the case, how is this pellet of salt non-corrosive?


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## HerkFE

*It's not a coating...*

When salt is treated with Magic the salt absorbs the liquid. As the salt melts the snow both the Magic and salt are dispersed/diluted at the same time. Therefore it is not like a coating is washed away and left with a pellet of salt.

As for the nerdy chemical process behind it, I don't have the specifics, but I do know this. We used it last year here in NY and had fantastic results. Our spreaders which were bought new still look that way with far less maintenance. Virtually no corrosion, especially when compared to those who did not use magic salt.


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## Mark Oomkes

That's what I thought. 

But, the first time I tried it on my own driveway on compacted snow\ice, I watched to see what happened as I continued some other work. After a very short period of time, there was a pellet of salt with no brown coating left. The Magic salt had melted right through the ice, it did a fantastic job of that, but I was left with what looked like a normal white piece of salt. Maybe there was Magic imbedded in it, but I'd be surpised.

Last year we used only Magic salt on our sidewalks and we had just as much sod damage as before using a blended product. Maybe salt and grass react differently than salt and iron, but from what I saw, the Magic didn't seem to make any difference with sod.

This is why I am skeptical of the claim that Magic takes the corrosiveness out of salt. I'd be willing to bet that chemically it's impossible. But I have been wrong before. Just ask my wife.


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## Bow Hunter TJ

> _Originally posted by Mark Oomkes _
> *Most of the technical side has been covered pretty well. If they really want 0 salt, the product you want is NC3000. It works very well. We used it in a sculpture park last year in conjunction with brooms and had 0 damage to grass, sculptures worth over a million dollars (each).
> 
> The problem I see is the 25 gal spot sprayer. This is the way we did it last year. It worked OK, but not great. We had to go over the sidewalks 2X to get fairly decent coverage. Not great coverage. The pump on those type sprayers do not have enough volume to cover the walk entirely, especially given the weight per gallon of ANY of these products. The highest volume 12V pump I have been able to find is 9 GPM. And then you have to have the electric system to run it continually, which I doubt any ATV has. A Mule or Polaris' whatever might, but not a 4-wheeler.
> 
> With regards to Magic making salt non-corrosive, can somebody explain what happens when moisture (snow) removes the coating of Magic from the pellet of salt. Are you not left with a pellet of uncoated salt then? If this is the case, how is this pellet of salt non-corrosive? *


Great thats what I have been looking for someone who has actually used it... I think it is going to be my best bet even though it costs a little more.... I researched and called just about everyone who makes a liquid deicer and they all claim their stuff is the best!!! I think the NV-3000 will be the best for me even if it does not work as well as the others..

Did you have any problems with the product becoming slippery after application?? how did it compare to other products that you have used as far as deicing and what about refreeze??


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## Mark Oomkes

We may just be lucky so far, but we have not had problems with the M1000 on parking lots and only once with NC3000 on walks. We applied it when it was about 35 degrees. We could have waited until it cooled down, but it was a holiday afternoon, and we wanted to get it done and go home. It did snow that night.

The refreeze will happen with any de-icer. Once it becomes diluted it refrezees, there's nothing you can do to prevent it, only stay on top of it to reapply to keep it from freezing. We did not have any incidents from it refreezing before we reapplied. 

It's too bad they stopped making NC2000, that stuff was great. It was like fire, it worked so fast. The problem was that if it came into contact with M1000, it turned into a real nice sludge. Fortunately, our supplier found that out the hard way before we did.

The only other product we have used is Ice Ban, and that was 3-4 years ago, so I can't give it a fair comparison because Ice Ban has changed so much since then. But the only non-chloride products that you will find are NC3000 and Magic. We didn't have any Magic dealers close to us last year when we were deciding what to use, so that's why the NC3000. We will be using it again, I would recommend it, and our customer was very happy with the results.


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## Bow Hunter TJ

Thanks Again mark.. as for the 25 gal sprayer not working... the GPM is not the whole deal you need the pump and more inmportant the spray tip caculated to fit the Specific Gravity of the material you are spraying. For NV-3000 it weighs 10.75 lbs a gallon and that works out to 1.27 Specific Gravity. Now a compent sprayer company can work out what tip will best spray that material at the application rate you require. 

Global Tech says to apply the NV-3000 at 40 to 60 gallons per lane mile and I assume a lane mile is 10 feet wide????? and I know a mile is 5280 ft so that is 52,800 square feet.

52,800 / lets say 50 gals = roughly 1000 Sq ft to a gallon

Most pump and sprayer suppliers will figure by the acre

and an acre has 43560 sq ft so that would be roughly 43 gallons an acre.. 

So with the info below you should be able to get a tip that will work with your pump

1) Weight per gallon 
2) Specific Gravity
3) approx Speed 
4) Gallons per acre
5) width of spray (Distance from next spray tip if you use a boom)
6) Pump size GPM and pressure
The size or your pump will limit how fast you can go and how wide you can spray in one pass.That should help you make just one pass at say 3 mph and your done!!!!


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## Bow Hunter TJ

FYI
I got my boom and tank set up custom built and it works really well. 
I am running a 4.0 GPM Shurflo pump at 24 lbs of pressure and it is really putting out.. the guys at kennethsales did all the calculations and set everything up so I could spray at 1 gallon per 1000 sqft. at 4 mph... I can adjust the width from 4 to 8 feet and my boom is no wider than my ATV. I can adjust the amount by sppeding up or slowing down. I also had them set up a wand that will spray at the same rate covering 2', I can switch from one to the other.. They say the pump draws 12 amps MAX which is 4 more than the old 1.8 gal per minute pump so it should be OK..

Now I should be able to put down enough material in one fast pass and on to the next place..


Now if it will just snow!!


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## Mark Oomkes

Are these figures based on water or NC3000? 

Have you actually run NC3000 through this setup yet?


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## Bow Hunter TJ

Figures are based on NC-3000 and no I have not run it through yet, but it was built and tested using a chemical mix with the same weight and specific gravity... in other words the same thickness... you were right about the standard roundup sprayer not spraying it.. I would have to have made several slow passes less than 1mph to get any kind of coverage. Plus the pressure was too high and it was misting some of the product.

With this setup I am able to acheive large dropplets so won't loose any material..

this pumps draws 8 to 12 amps, I think that will be fine... I will have to find out after some extended use though.


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## TurfPlus

Since all the tabulations are based on spraying water, which weighs 8.34 lbs. per gallon, conversion factors must be used when spraying solutions which are heavier or lighter than water. To determine the proper size nozzle for the solution to be sprayed. First convert the desired GPA or GPM of solution to a water rate using the conversion factors. Then use the new converted GPA or GPM rate to select the proper size nozzle. 

Weight of Solution SG Conversion Factors

7.0 lbs per gallon .84 .92 
8.0 lbs per gallon .96 .98 
8.34 lbs per gallon (water) 1.00 1.00
9.0 lbs per gallon 1.08 1.04
10.0 lbs per gallon 1.20 1.09
10.65 lbs per gallon 1.28 1.12
11.0 lbs per gallon 1.32 1.14

Hope this helps.

John


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## cat320

Just saw an ad for Bare ground solution.It was in the Boston globe parade magazine Says it is a liquid pretreatment and is suppose to last for a few applicatins .What is it?? Magic?


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## Taconic

*bare ground*

Cat320
The Bare ground product is the old Ice Ban it is not Magic so dont be fooled as there are several companies out there that claim they are selling Magic or there product is Magic ,when in fact it is not.If you are interested in any chemical ask for the msds sheet and some where on there is the actual manufacturer of the product.Bare grounds msds says Ice Ban in very little letters but its there 
John Parker


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## carlriv2

Perhaps someone subscribed to this thread can answer this question.

I have an ASL-300 and want to put a spray tank on it.

I have seen many discussions about spraying from an ATV, and this system would be similar. I would like to know if there is anyone that produces a rig, 30-50 gallons, that will spray this type of liquid properly? I have read about the thickness not working well with regular sprayers. I will be using this only on walkways and stairs. The walks are 4' wide, and I would like a wand type sprayer to hit the stairs.

Or.... if no one produces one, has anyone made there own? What type of pump, nozzles, tank, fittings, and wand etc. did you use?

On 4' walkways how much will 30 gallons treat?

There is a supplier of Bare-Ground locally. is that a good product for this application? Are there better products, and can I get them locally in Mass, near the NH border.

Thank you in advance for the input.

Carl.


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## KatWalk

*Lesco Back Pack Sprayer*

BowHunter and Turfpro...will magic Liquid-O flow through a lesco back pack sprayer with its additional weight?? Thanks


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## HerkFE

We spray Magic through our standard Solo diaphram pump sprayers (w/ adjustable nozzle) and als a bettery powered sprayer (also w/ adj nozzle) with mo problems.

Pete


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## carlriv2

Would that work the same for a 12 volt 30 gallon sprayer, just use adjustable nozzles? Could it be just that simple? Or do I need a higher volume pump as well?


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## GreginAlaska

Anybody ever tried this stuff?

http://www.ice-melt-deicer.com/

Has a goofy name but looks good on paper. I wonder if it is as good as they claim?


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## Bow Hunter TJ

Just an Update finally got enough snow and ice last week to use the sprayer and it worked like a charm!!! can spray a drive and a sidewalk in under a minute... drive takes about 20 seconds... I think I am even going to speed up a little because I have been putting down more than I want in that short 20 seconds.. I am spraying Ice ban and I have noticed no real drain on the electral system... the wand sprayer is the coolest!! I can back down a drive flip a toggle switch and gas it.. my two rain drop nozzels on my 4 foot boom each spray about 4.5 feet wide and really put out!!

I switch it off at the end of the drive and them back up to the end of the walk.. bam!! I am off the ATV pull a Plastic handle on the rear to switch over from boom to wandf and flip the switch and my pump kicks on and charges my system up to about 24 lbs and then cuts off in about 3 seconds. the whole time I am pulling my hose off the reel and spraying the side walk.. the pump kicks on every few seconds to keep my wand spraying a 36" wide pattern... Supper nice Set up!!

The guys at Kenneth sales & service really fixed me up if you guys need a set up that works you can give these guys a call at 620-324-5562 they are in kansas but will build and ship everything except for the tank.. you just give them the specific gravity and how many gallons you want to spray per Acre or 1000 sf ft and your done!! I ordered my tank from northern and then just put it together... The great part is its all top quality Stuff and it only cost me about 150 bucks more than a cheap ready made set up from norther that is designed to spray round up!!!


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## chris08087

So do you think that you saved money using liquid vs solid salt/calcium? (not considering the cost of the sprayer, just the cost of material used) If so, how much did you save, say, per dirveway or per house?


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## Bow Hunter TJ

Well I am not sure that I saved any money.. I know to get a salt spreader that will spread salt only on the drive would be expensive and I would still have to have a hand crank or bucket to do the walk... the Ice ban costs about 1.25 per gallon and 50 lbs of salt costs about 5 bucks I usually put out about 2 gallons on a drive so who knows.. I know its much quicker and easy to direct exactly where you want it. plus I can carry more on my machine because it only weighs 10 lbs per gallon so that 20 lbs per drive.. I am not sure how much salt I would have to put out to match that but I would guess Maybe 50lbs???

The time and head ache it saves is worth it even if it does not save any money!! Plus it does not bounce like pellets so it stays where you put it (the rain drop spray heads make sure of that) it would take a strong wind to effect My sprayer!!


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## kc8mxa

bow hunter could you post a pic. of your sprayer?
thanks in advance.



Lincoln


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## Bow Hunter TJ

> _Originally posted by kc8mxa _
> *bow hunter could you post a pic. of your sprayer?
> thanks in advance.
> 
> NO I CAN NOT!!!! Naa I have never been able to post Photo's to these stupid forums.. give me your email and I will send some directly to you though!! or to someone else who know how to post PIcs..
> 
> It basiclly looks like any sprayer you buy from Northern or some other Place (Thats where the tank came from) the real diff is the size of the pump and all the plumbing and spray boom and tips..
> 
> It really looks clean and you don't have a metal boom with hoses running all down it..*


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## dssxxxx

Bow Hunter TJ said:


> WOW!!! CMA is totally out of the question!! It is used by most airports, but is not really designed to melt Ice and snow it just keeps it from sticking to anything.. But the $7200.00 a ton really grabs your attention!!


Sodium Acetate is used by the airports. Melts to +5 F.

CMA 100% is used for new concrete -2 years old. It does melt, but to the same temps as rock salt +20 F.

Price: Usually depending upon amount ordered $3000.00 - $3200.00 per metric ton (40 bags @ 25 kg (55 lb) each)


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