# Tire siping



## tractorbill (Jul 21, 2007)

Do any of you guys ever sipe your own snow tires for better traction?


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## scottplowman (Oct 22, 2006)

I do, I think it helps a lot. My dad was a field serviceman for Caterpillar in Spokane WA for 25 years. They siped the tires on all their service trucks, was a given. He went way up in the woods to logging sites, out all winter. Also I think he told me once tires last longer because they run cooler. Or maybe someone else. Or maybe I dreamed that.


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## kevlars (Feb 11, 2011)

I had some Goodyear Wrangler MT's, which were horrible on ice and hardpack, siped. They worked excellent after the siping. 

kevlars


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

tractorbill;1330600 said:


> Do any of you guys ever sipe your own snow tires for better traction?


Been running sipped tires for about 15yrs, not only do they grip better on all winter road conditions they also reduce tire noise and run cooler so the don't wear out as quick.
The cool thing about sipping is you can make a marginal tire into a pretty decent one. 
Cost is about $15 per tire.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I cant find ANY one to sipe tires on the east cost


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## kevlars (Feb 11, 2011)

Tires Plus did mine. Don't know if you have one near you, though.

kevlars


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

theplowmeister;1339675 said:


> I cant find ANY one to sipe tires on the east cost


Have you tried Town Fair Tire, I know they're all over New England.
My brother in Ct has used them for 25+yrs and they sound like a pretty good outfit.
I've been dealing with Discount Tire since the early 80's and they turned me on to siping.


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## tractorbill (Jul 21, 2007)

I can't find any place that does it either. I am going to buy a tool and do my own.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

tractorbill;1339748 said:


> I can't find any place that does it either. I am going to buy a tool and do my own.


You can probably just use a utility knife to slice/sipe the lugs, the tools I've seen at the tire shops look like a handheld mini deli meat slicer.


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## kevlars (Feb 11, 2011)

BUFF;1339751 said:


> You can probably just use a utility knife to slice/sipe the lugs, the tools I've seen at the tire shops look like a handheld mini deli meat slicer.


Yeah, let me know how that works out for ya!!

kevlars


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

kevlars;1339794 said:


> Yeah, let me know how that works out for ya!!
> 
> kevlars


Not saying it would be fun but it is doable if you have the patients and time.


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

what the hell is siping?Been around for a while and never heard of siping!


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## Workaholic (Apr 20, 2005)

ratherbfishin;1339949 said:


> what the hell is siping?Been around for a while and never heard of siping!


Im with this guy!


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## tractorbill (Jul 21, 2007)

siping is small cuts that are made in the lugs of tires. It softens the rubber and makes it more pliable and runs cooler. checkout the high performance snow tires made today.


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## Mabepossibly (Dec 12, 2010)

Sipes are the little cut lines you seein snow tires. Yourctires lose traction on ice because becausewhen pressureis applied to ice a thin layer of water forms, killing any friction you had. Sipes gives the water a place to go.


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## snow tender (Nov 30, 2008)

siping is the way. I am with the other guys in the east very hard to find someone that has the tool. 20 years ago they were in a lot of service stations. Now the tire stores look at you like you have 2 head! "Cant do that here!"


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## morecoffee (Jan 8, 2010)

Tire siping is popular in the northwest but not in the northeast. At least that has been my experience.


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## welded wrenches (Oct 19, 2004)

*tire siping DIY*

and yes you can sipe your own tires quick and simple..e bay or summit racing sells a Afco brand tire groover for like 59-69 dollars (aka hot knife) there come with 10 u-shaped cutting blades..all you do is put the blade in upside down..and you can sipe a tire in 5 minutes... quick and simple.. fix for a mudd terrain tire for snow-ice use...


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

*Grave digging today*

Ordered myself a siping tool, as I can't see buying new tires as mine are still in good shape, but handle terrible in snow and ice.

Looking forwards to "siping" my tires to see the differences. Has anyone else taken up the practice, other than what I can find on youboob ?


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

or just buy these tires that come siped from the factory:

http://www.discounttire.com/infocooperdiscovererms/discovererms.html

i have a set and will never use anything else. mine are also studded for maximum performance.


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## Pit Crew (Mar 19, 2014)

If you know anybody that races dirt,sprints,modified`s they will have a sipeing tool. Been sipeing dirt tires for ever.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

linckeil;1907905 said:


> or just buy these tires that come siped from the factory:
> 
> http://www.discounttire.com/infocooperdiscovererms/discovererms.html
> 
> i have a set and will never use anything else. mine are also studded for maximum performance.


Next set of tires will be all winter, and possibly studded. I'm concerned with is doing surface damage to residents driveways. Basically the only thing that prevents me from buying studded tires


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Dogplow Dodge;1907856 said:


> Ordered myself a siping tool, as I can't see buying new tires as mine are still in good shape, but handle terrible in snow and ice.
> 
> Looking forwards to "siping" my tires to see the differences. Has anyone else taken up the practice, other than what I can find on youboob ?


Years ago I had a tire shop sipe a set of GY MTR's, here's a pic of what they looked like and I seem to remember the siping depth stopped about 1/8" from the carcass.


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## kevlars (Feb 11, 2011)

Discount Tire doesn't do it anymore. An employee got hurt using the machine, so, they shut them all down and don't do it anymore. I'd like to buy one of their machines. But, they are dismantling them!! Sucks, because it sure helps. I did a set of Wrangler MT's that were terrible in the snow/ice. I have a set of Duratracs that are about 50% tread, and wanted to do them to help with plowing traction. I guess if I can't find a place that does it, I will have to resort to using a hand siping tool, and do them myself.

kevlars


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## indplstim (Dec 4, 2008)

Discount tire advertises sipping on their webpage, I'd give them a call if they are in your area


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## kevlars (Feb 11, 2011)

indplstim;1908090 said:


> Discount tire advertises sipping on their webpage, I'd give them a call if they are in your area


I called two stores. No luck!


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## indplstim (Dec 4, 2008)

kevlars;1908118 said:


> I called two stores. No luck!


I do believe the website suggested calling ahead to check on availability of that service.


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## kevlars (Feb 11, 2011)

indplstim;1908127 said:


> I do believe the website suggested calling ahead to check on availability of that service.


They said that no stores are siping anymore. YMMV.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

kevlars;1908118 said:


> I called two stores. No luck!


My Mudders are about the same as yours... 1/2 way worn. They're about 4 years old, as I only use them in winter. They suck in snow and ice. Great off road, btw.

For the $200 I paid for the siper, I think it's worth it to see how, if any, improvements can be achieved by using the tool. In essence, it pays for itself, as then I'm not forced out to buy a new set of tires... which I can save for next fall.

Just trying to maximize the life out of a decent set of mudders.


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## kevlars (Feb 11, 2011)

Dogplow Dodge;1908132 said:


> My Mudders are about the same as yours... 1/2 way worn. They're about 4 years old, as I only use them in winter. They suck in snow and ice. Great off road, btw.
> 
> For the $200 I paid for the siper, I think it's worth it to see how, if any, improvements can be achieved by using the tool. In essence, it pays for itself, as then I'm not forced out to buy a new set of tires... which I can save for next fall.
> 
> Just trying to maximize the life out of a decent set of mudders.


Which siping tool did you buy? Got a link to it? I'm prob gonna have to buy one.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

BUFF;1908049 said:


> Years ago I had a tire shop sipe a set of GY MTR's, here's a pic of what they looked like and I seem to remember the siping depth stopped about 1/8" from the carcass.


Very interesting. I was looking at the canadian website that shows the differences between snow tires and regular. Hot chick talking about siping...






Yeah, I'd like to sipe her for a few hours.... damn hot canadian chicks....Thumbs Up

Anyway, they orient the angles of the sipe depending on where the tire blocks are. Centers get perpendicular to the sidewall, while the outer blocks get angled.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

kevlars;1908137 said:


> Which siping tool did you buy? Got a link to it? I'm prob gonna have to buy one.


Slammazon had it, and for $4.00 I'll have it tomorrow.

http://www.amazon.com/Van-Alstine-E...419296308&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=siping+tool

The reason I chose this one is that it allows you to adjust your sipes, adding more or less depending on your desire. The more of them, means the faster you're done siping your tires. Speed means I can go drink beer and bang some chick up the block I've never met, vs just sitting siping tires...:waving:

Yeah... I'm dreaming, but after 28 years driving the same car, you can't help but dream about driving a new one...

Maybe you wait till I use mine, and if I like it, then buy it....


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## kevlars (Feb 11, 2011)

Dogplow Dodge;1908151 said:


> Slammazon had it, and for $4.00 I'll have it tomorrow.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Van-Alstine-E...419296308&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=siping+tool
> 
> ...


Please post your results. I'm wanting to do something soon. Just want you to be the guinea pig!! Lol!!


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

linckeil;1907905 said:


> or just buy these tires that come siped from the factory:
> 
> http://www.discounttire.com/infocooperdiscovererms/discovererms.html
> 
> i have a set and will never use anything else. mine are also studded for maximum performance.


I was going to remark that they're pinned for studs, siped, etc, but not snowflake-rated, but I checked another site with a good photo of one and saw that they are. Seems like Cooper is downplaying the winter label, possibly for close-minded folks who insist that winter tires are the devil and all-season M+S-rated tires are everything anyone should have.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

theholycow;1908632 said:


> I was going to remark that they're pinned for studs, siped, etc, but not snowflake-rated, but I checked another site with a good photo of one and saw that they are. Seems like Cooper is downplaying the winter label, possibly for close-minded folks who insist that winter tires are the devil and all-season M+S-rated tires are everything anyone should have.


as far as snow tires go, they are everything you could want right from the factory - studdable, siped, deep blocks, snowflake rated... plus they come in many sizes and are very reasonably priced. they are a true snowtire and i would not recommend running them year round as they are a softer compound which makes them wear faster.

they have the M&S stamped on them, but they are not mud tires. they are true snow tires - a big difference between the two). They likely put the M&S stamp on there for the uneducated consumer who will never be in the mud, but wants to have that rating for whatever reason.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

it comes down to convenience and perception of cost.

Convenience is that you need separate tires and separate rims (preferably) for winter use. I remember being a kid and seeing people driving around with hub capped front wheels, and nothing but black rims and exposed lug nuts on the rear rims with big lugged snow tires on them. Don't see that here at all, anymore. 

Inconvenient
Ugly
costly


For me, the opposite. 

I would have rotated the tires anyway, so it's not inconvenient (although storage indoors can be a pain for the winter only tires)

ugly ? Well, who cares ? My old steelies are still capped by my dog dishes, and fancy amaloominimumnummmmmmmm rims are just doing to get messed up anyway

My summer tires last forever. I get 4 years or so out of the winters, as I run them from late October through March. Time for new treads anyway... at least I feel safer driving the roads with them on...


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

Dogplow Dodge;1909068 said:


> it comes down to convenience and perception of cost.
> 
> Convenience is that you need separate tires and separate rims (preferably) for winter use. I remember being a kid and seeing people driving around with hub capped front wheels, and nothing but black rims and exposed lug nuts on the rear rims with big lugged snow tires on them. Don't see that here at all, anymore.
> 
> ...


i agree. to add to that, changing tires twice a year also allows me to thoroughly inspect my brakes, steering, and suspension. and also hose off all sand and salt really well at the end of the plowing season. a lot more conveniant to catch a problem (or signs of a problem) at these intervals then at any other time. and nothing wrong with a set of steelies. i don't think it looks ugly (unless they are rusted with paint flaking off). it's different because all trucks today have the pretty alloys, but not ugly.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

linckeil;1909620 said:


> i agree. to add to that, changing tires twice a year also allows me to thoroughly inspect my brakes, steering, and suspension. and also hose off all sand and salt really well at the end of the plowing season. a lot more conveniant to catch a problem (or signs of a problem) at these intervals then at any other time. and nothing wrong with a set of steelies.


LOL..... I do the same stuff every time I rotate tires too.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

BUFF;1909717 said:


> LOL..... I do the same stuff every time I rotate tires too.


Sure makes it easier to grease my D60's steering knuckles and draglink, and wipe off the squirrel guts from the most recent silver rat crossing I stopped by accident...


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

linckeil;1908722 said:


> they have the M&S stamped on them, but they are not mud tires. they are true snow tires - a big difference between the two). They likely put the M&S stamp on there for the uneducated consumer who will never be in the mud, but wants to have that rating for whatever reason.


Yeah, the M+S designation actually doesn't mean much anyway, just tread design geometry...it could be applied to all kinds of tires (even summer high performance low profile car tires) as long as the tread blocks and grooves meet the specification.
http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=125
"Tires with tread designs that meet the definition may be branded with the letters "M" and "S" in several different ways (e.g., M&S, M+S, M/S, MS, etc.)"


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

So... I finally got to use my siping tool. What did I think ?

Well, the tool itself is made very well. It gets quite hot, so if you forget, you will burn yourself. If the tool's performance is reflective of the results of the tires sticking more, it's worth way more than what I paid for it. Very easy to use once you set up the blades. I put each blade (4 blades total due to my size blocking on the tire) 3/16 or so apart, and extended 1/8 down.  This way I get 1/8" deep cuts that are 3/16 apart. My tread blocks are just wide enough that this pattern allows for enough meat to be on either side when I pull it through a block. I was concerned of making the slices too narrow, so this eliminated that fear.



So, I started with a front tire. The tire was suspended, via my jack and allowed to spin freely while I did the siping. You pull the tool towards you, and it takes a bit of effort to do so. When it's at it's maximum heat, it's a little easier, but the faster you work, the blades cool down just as quickly, as their heat is transferred to the tire. The first tire took me 25 minutes, as I marked each block as I worked through it with the siping tool. Once I realized I could actually see the marks if I looked at the correct angle, I just marked my starting point and continued on. By the 4th tire, I was under 15 minutes to complete the entire tire.



So, the little lines are the imprint of the tool There are 4 snipes per block, and some blocks which are wider were where I did the rest of the block with the tool by just moving it over where the tool didn't rest and slide upon. The center blocks are supposed to be perpendicular to the sidewalls, and the outer blocks are parallel with the angle of the blocks themselves. Really an easy job, but just time consuming. My hands were beginning to ache by the end, as you have to keep a good hold on the handles, otherwise, you'll angle the plate, not providing a continuous depth across the block



So, now what ? Well the tire feels "feathered" if that makes any sense. I assume the cuts "open up" when torque is applied, and allow the tread to grasp the surface better. I don't know, and I guess I won't find out until the next rain or snow.

IF this works, it was well worth the time and expense. Here is the theory behind it..


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Siping works great, we've done it on marginal tires in winter for years, and probably 1000's of dirt track racing tires.

Here's a few other options for sipers as well:

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Search?query=tire+sipers


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

jomama45;1912182 said:


> Siping works great, we've done it on marginal tires in winter for years, and probably 1000's of dirt track racing tires.
> 
> Here's a few other options for sipers as well:
> 
> http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Search?query=tire+sipers


That's the company that sells them through slammazon. They're customer service etiquette is very good. Immediate email notifications, and they're follow up concern I'm happy was very unusual. I may buy a groover from them as well depending on how this works.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Dogplow Dodge;1912165 said:


> So... I finally got to use my siping tool. What did I think ?
> 
> Well, the tool itself is made very well. It gets quite hot, so if you forget, you will burn yourself. If the tool's performance is reflective of the results of the tires sticking more, it's worth way more than what I paid for it. Very easy to use once you set up the blades. I put each blade (4 blades total due to my size blocking on the tire) 3/16 or so apart, and extended 1/8 down. This way I get 1/8" deep cuts that are 3/16 apart. My tread blocks are just wide enough that this pattern allows for enough meat to be on either side when I pull it through a block. I was concerned of making the slices too narrow, so this eliminated that fear.
> 
> ...


That's great Dog, in theory the tired will be quieter too, at least my GY MTR's were.

BTW I hope you had the brick on a jack stand....... Safety FirstThumbs Up


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

BUFF;1912229 said:


> That's great Dog,
> 
> BTW I hope you had the brick on a jack stand....... Safety FirstThumbs Up


:laughing:
No way !!.. The tire was 1/4" off the ground, so i was living vicariously...in your honor !

Looking forwards to a quieter, safer rideThumbs Up


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Tire siping .... so what do I think ?

After driving the truck around for a few days, I realized that the tire siping I did to it made the tires much more sensitive to the road. The formerly "slippery spots" were no longer slippery. Tire siping really works, as it allows more of the surface to be contacted through separation of the "blocky" tires into smaller areas, giving them flexibility and better contact of the road. I feel as though the tires grip the road, and I'm not as fearful of the sliding I was experiencing previously. I think the experiment worked for me, and I'm happy overall.

The negative side of siping your tires:

The good experience I had with my tires came with a price. A day or two after siping the tires, I started to experience poor handling characteristics in the brick. The truck started to "wander" at speeds, and follow grooves and imperfections of the road surface. At times of highway speeds, this was quite uncomfortable, as I felt I was constantly compensating for the truck's position on the road with the steering wheel. I would be traveling alond, and the truck would jut left or swerve right. It actually made me wonder if something major was wrong with the truck, and I began to look for a reason for the poor handling. It was interesting what I found.

The first issue I came across was my pitman arm nut had loosened up and the arm was moving independent of the steering gear. Not enough slop to fail completely, but there was lateral movement in the arm which was causing the truck to respond incorrectly to the steering corrections. I tightened up the PA nut and thought I was done with my poor handling journey. Not quite yet, unfortunately.

So, I still experience the "wander" in the steering, at speed, on highways and local roads where the brick wants to follow imperfections in the road. I spend several hours under the truck, outside the truck, moving things about to see where this "looseness" is coming from. I finally discover that one of the leaf spring bushings in the truck was a little soft. It held it's position while the truck sat, but when you moved the steering wheel, the spring moved ever so slightly, laterally in the hanger. It only did this on the drivers side, and not the passenger side. These springs were made for me in April of 2012, so I'm a bit disappointed that the bushing is going bad. So off to the spring shop who made the springs for me.

The guy who owns the spring shop came out to my truck, and inspected it. He said he would replace the spring bushing for me if I took the spring out, and brought the spring down to them. He had no excuse as to why ONE went bad, and the other didn't, as he said they buy from a Canadian Manufacturer, and don't see many issues with them. Either way, he would help me with the problem, but suggested to "align" the front end in the meantime. I didn't want to pull the spring out, as the fantasy channel keeps telling us we're in for a snow storm, and I don't want to be without the truck, and more importantly, be out in the cold weather removing a spring. The spring bushing will wait till summer...

I bring the truck down for the alignment, and even though these trucks only have a "toe" adjustment for a normal alignment, because I've replaced all the steering components, and didn't align the "Toe" since doing so, he said that it would be prudent to do so. The truck turned out to have a 2* misalignment of the front wheels, and since having the alignment done, I've yet to experience any more of the wandering.

In conclusion, the tire siping worked great at increasing contact patch of these blocky mud terrain tires. It also exposed the deficiencies in the steering geometry, which previously went unnoticed. Since my tires were wearing normally, I would have never thought that the steering alignment was actually out at all.

Another day of learning something new, I guess.


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