# Old Snow Way. Fennier pump. Wont raise.



## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Seeking Basher. 

Have an older snow way plow with down pressure. 
I'm trying to diagnose no lift. New valve. Pump runs, coil pack activates, 12 v on blue line when switch is activated. 

Main lift jack was frozen. Cleaned primed and replaced. Seals are all good. 

Side angles are strong so pump filter is clean.

On the pressure switch should I read ohms across terminals. Cause there is no resistance on benchtop.

Thanks in advance. 

I'm ase certified in brakes and fuel so not a shade tree..


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Did you check another coil for a comparrison


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Yes I have. Coil fires and valve moves fully. 

The lift jack was frozen. Fluids been flushed and replaced.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Old valve. And the pressure relief and the big question.. what should I see across the terminals on the pressure switch. I have 0 resistance on bench.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Your going to need a manuel, or Basher for that one.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Yeah I have full manual and multiple pdfs. 

Not much for specs on anything unfortunately. 

And yes from reading the site for a few weeks now I noticed he is the goto for sno way.

I appreciate any input.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Model #?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Model #?


That one in the middle looks more like a sensor than a valve. My experience with snow way is limited.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

24 or 25. No numbers or decals left.. It has the pressure down system. Two switch control box. Ancient plug system.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Yes the middle one with the terminals is the pressure sensor/switch. The old valve is on the right and the pressure relief on left.

New valve and coil are already installed on the block. I pulled these to test at home if possible. 

From what I can figure is the switch remains in a closed circuit until its pressure limit is reached then it opens and removes the ground or 12v from the solenoid. At least I think thats how it interrupts. This is really an old design. No relay set..


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I would have to see a wiring diagram, does pressure activate the switch, or does the driver activate it? It should be either normally open, or closed. Does 12 volts make the switch operate?


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

And btw. You guys are amazing with the responses.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Not usually, the wifes in a mood, its safer in here.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Here is clips from pdf.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I've never worked on a snoway, but the manual helps a lot.

http://www.snoway.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/97100200E.pdf

On page 5, left hand column, it describes that the pressure switch closes with low pressure, and opens with pressure. It is n line with the solenoid, so this effectively limits the down pressure.

The down-pressure system (and pressure switch) has nothing to do with raising the plow.

Looking at page 25, in order for the plow to raise, the angle valve must be in neutral, the 4 way valve must be in the unenergized position (straight rather than cross flow) and the lower solenoid must be in the unenergized (blocked) position.

With reference to either page 26 or 27, depending on your control style, to raise, there should be 0 v at wires 5 (red, right solenoid),6 (green, left solenoid) ,7 (black, lower solenoid), and 11 (blue, 4-way solenoid). If the blue wire has 12V, you are applying power to the 4 way valve, and therefore when the motor runs it is trying to give you down-pressure.

Since you say it angles correctly, I wouldn't worry about wires 5 and 6 to the angle solenoid.

I'd try disconnecting the blue and black wires to the 4 way and lower solenoid, respectively, and hit the button. If the plow raises, then mechanically you are fine.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Ok that is a huge help with an actual wiring schematic. 

Ok I think I'm going to have to snap a picture of this unit tomorrow when its light out. He has the assembly for the down pressure system. But his controller doesnt have a dp switch. The actual switch for lower stays in place. The raise is spring loaded. If that makes any sense. Only two switch control system.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Note that the blue wire should only be energized if the dp toggle switch is in the down position AND the raise/lower switch is in the lower position. This should also turn on the down pressure light.

The raise lower switch supplies power to the down pressure switch, so if you aren't in "lower" position you should never get power on the blue wire.

You should only have power on the blue wire if the raise/lower switch is in the lower position AND the DP toggle switch is in the DP position. If the DP toggle switch is not in the DP position, then the lower solenoid is activated and you are in float mode.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Steakums said:


> Ok that is a huge help with an actual wiring schematic.
> 
> Ok I think I'm going to have to snap a picture of this unit tomorrow when its light out. He has the assembly for the down pressure system. But his controller doesnt have a dp switch. The actual switch for lower stays in place. The raise is spring loaded. If that makes any sense. Only two switch control system.


The raise lower switch staying in the down position is floating the blade. Momentary raise, float down, maintain position in neutral.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

I will venture out to the shop tomorrow and snap some pictures. I got a feeling something has been changed. (Control box)


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Steakums said:


> Ok that is a huge help with an actual wiring schematic.
> 
> Ok I think I'm going to have to snap a picture of this unit tomorrow when its light out. He has the assembly for the down pressure system. But his controller doesnt have a dp switch. The actual switch for lower stays in place. The raise is spring loaded. If that makes any sense. Only two switch control system.


Also, not trying to be snarky, but if you want to have a plow repair business, the first thing you are going to have to do is figure out how to find manuals online and read schematics. It took me about 2 minutes once you told me the model number to find the manual, and longer to type the answer than to figure it out.

I recognize that as an ASE mechanic (even if you aren't a master tech yet) you have some skills. Therefore, finding and reading manuals and schematics needs to be prioritized since there may be no manufacturer classes to help you.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

It's supposed to hit 30 below tomorrow so it's not like the customers gonna come get it. I got plenty of time. I put the plow and assembly on the forklift and set it outside. Got a brake job in am and it was in my way. Soon as I go in I will post a few pictures of the whole unit.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

I have about 4 different manuals right from snowway international but never found one with an actual wiring schematic. Perhaps I missed it. 

I'm very familiar with downloading and finding repair and schematics. Appreciate that link.

And didnt take it as snarky. Information is never snarky.

Not a young guy anymore. Never rush what I'm working on. Prefer quality over quantity. And obviously I like to talk.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I'm happy to help you out, but getting it ready for the customer wasn't my point. 

My point was that finding and understanding manuals and schematics will help you with a successful business. 

As an A&P mechanic in addition to being an engineer, the first thing I do with any device is get the manual. I don't have a piece of equipment that I don't have the manual for. The first thing you should have done was to go to the Snoway website, download the manual, and read it.

You went down a rabbit hole about pressure switches, etc. that a quick look at the schematic in the manual would have told you was irrelevant to raising the plow (the problem you originally posted about). Since it was irrelevant, IMHO, that's time you shouldn't be charging the customer for, and therefore time you spent not making $$. 

There are many posts on here about people taking their plows to dealers or mechanics and them changing parts that don't need to be changed, chasing their tails, etc. and getting the customer extremely frustrated.

If you can get to the point where you think about problems from a systems perspective and fix things correctly in an efficient time, you will have people beating a path to your door.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I was typing as you posted. Sorry.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

This is more of a hobby and to assist a friend. My background in brake systems kinda gives a small advantage as I at least know how the systems work.

We are very limited on any repair shops in the area and even less with anyone that is skilled in hydraulics.

I maintain his truck and he asked if I would look at it in my spare time for a 12 pack. I have very little time in it. And no money in it. He has a box of spare new parts.

And these are all the manuals I picked up just for sno way. I was guessing blind as to what model it was as it's so old and rusty. Was no I'd numbers anywhere.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

After hours of my friends wife digging for any booklets or info pertaining to the plow. It is an 18 Dx. Just downloaded the pdf going to go read up. 

Switching is quite different from what we were looking at earlier.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Steakums said:


> After hours of my friends wife digging for any booklets or info pertaining to the plow. It is an 18 Dx. Just downloaded the pdf going to go read up.
> Switching is quite different from what we were looking at earlier.


I just looked at the manual myself.
I don't think what you are working on can be an 18 series The 18 series doesn't have down pressure (so no pressure switch, no blue wire, no 4-way valve)
It's similar except for that. Maybe you have a series 18 control box and a 24 or 25 series plow.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

This is the controller.

And also a pic of unit quick when I took dog out.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

With the caveat that I have never worked on a plow, it appears to be the controller for the 24/25, based on the manual. 

I belive the conventional toggle switch on the bottom is the downpressure/float selector, and the indicator light is there.

The valve block you have apart is clearly for the downpressure plows. The 4 way is on the left, the relief in the middle, and the pressure switch on the right. As far as I can tell, the system works by porting fluid with the 4-way to get downpressure. The pump will run until the pressure switch opens, and restart if it drops. The relief valve opens if the pressure gets to high. In this way, downpressure is maintained betwern the seitch and relief valve set pressures as the plow travels over the ground.

Time for me to turn in.

Good luck.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Update: Sno way still wont raise. All wiring from control unit to plow triple checked. Angles right and left strong.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

What are the voltages on the control wites when you hit up?

Are the blue and black wires at 0V like they should be?

Motor running?


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Sorry I got tied up after I posted. I will go over everything and let you know.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

If you have enough length (or extra hose), you can bypass the down-pressure system. Connect the port on the top of the pump to the lift side of the lift cylinder, and the hose from the rod side of the lift cylinder to the pump return - where the hard line from the downpressure valve block goes in to the reservoir.

Shadows may be affecting your picture, or the fitting isn't shown clearly, but there should be one hose from each of the ports on the side of the valve block on the top of the pump. It looks like the one on the left (near the downpressure valve block in your photo) might be capped? However, if it is, then you shouldn't angle, so I'm at a bit of a loss trying to interpret the picture.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Aerospace Eng said:


> If you have enough length (or extra hose), you can bypass the down-pressure system. Connect the port on the top of the pump to the lift side of the lift cylinder, and the hose from the rod side of the lift cylinder to the pump return - where the hard line from the downpressure valve block goes in to the reservoir.
> 
> Shadows may be affecting your picture, or the fitting isn't shown clearly, but there should be one hose from each of the ports on the side of the valve block on the top of the pump. It looks like the one on the left (near the downpressure valve block in your photo) might be capped? However, if it is, then you shouldn't angle, so I'm at a bit of a loss trying to interpret the picture.


I had removed it to get to the pressure sensor. The lines for the angles were replaced at some point with the incorrect length. Was a bit to tight and the system was dry.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

I will most definitely try that tomorrow. I think it was to cold earlier. Was neg 32 here lastnight and I didnt have it in shop long. 15 mins at 64 deg max. 

Had an emergency repair on fleet vehicle. Priority customer.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

I have nothing on books tomorrow so I will be working on it while I catch up on cleaning the slop off the floor.

I may strip the entire thing down clean everything and reassemble. I want to solder on some new female terminals on all the wires to the coils. They connect but are pretty old.

If it takes me all day it's less time i have to spend doing drywall. He may end buying me a case of micro brew at this point. 

Thanks again for more input.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Complete: was foil debris in the down block. Think he lost a foil cap to a quart of hydraulic fluid. Everything is back to normal. About 3 hours slowly working on it. He's happy and I'm gonna drink beer for a few days. 

Thanks again for all your input.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

Now that I'm home and relaxing. I have to say I learned quite a bit about that plow and its systems. 

He is very happy, and was playing around with the Dp system. Striped the hard packed snow off my lot easy. 

Now I wait for word to spread. Lol.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I've yelled at drivers for that, letting that foil seal get into something. Glad you figured it out.


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## Steakums (Jan 29, 2019)

I'm curious how it got past the filter. But relieved it's gone.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I'm not sure exactly where you found the foil, but with the plow in float the down valve is open. Since the cylinder is double acting there will be flow through the valve to the cylinder whenever the plow floats up. My guess is that the foil got sucked into the valve during one of these instances. There is no need to go through the filter.

Separately, for your business...

As a suggestion, since most plows I have seen and the one you worked on are JIC fittings, I would get these JIC tee fittings in a few different sizes (the dash number is hose size in 1/16 of an inch), a set of female to 1/4" male reducers, a 1/4" female to NPT adapter(for use without a hose), a 1/4" male to male fitting (for use with a 1/4" hose), a 1/4" hose of 3-4 feet length, and a good 3000 psig pressure gauge.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...ale-to-JIC-Female-Swivel-to-JIC-Male-Run-Tee/

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...JIC-to-JIC/JIC-Female-to-JIC-Male---Straight/

They just go in-line with a hose, and you can attach a gauge to the tee port, either directly or through a hose. The reason for the female-male adapters is to allow a single hose size and gauge adapter size.

I use these all the time for diagnosing hydraulic systems as well as fuel systems on aircraft (lower pressure obviously). They make life much easier and save a lot of time when diagnosing problems.

In your case, putting it in-line to an angle cylinder would have instantly told you how strong the angle really was (useful for diagnosing pump). Comparing that to the reading on the up line to the cylinder would have then told you that the pressure was low, and that the lift issue was not associated with the down-pressure system valve block.


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