# Sidewalk Salt



## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

Does anyone use the same bulk salt that you spread in the parking lots, on sidewalks? I do myself, but another contractor claims its no good for sidewalks and does damage. I've always been told that its the thawing and re-freezing process that damages concrete if the concrete is not sealed properly. I'm curious about other contractors thoughts and experiences!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Someone is a moron..

Not you either.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

We use bulk. Brown white blue whatever on our walks. 
Sometimes mixed with calcium pellets if nippy out. 
Been putting some miles on the epokes this year. They are made to use bulk on walks.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Brad3403 said:


> Does anyone use the same bulk salt that you spread in the parking lots, on sidewalks? I do myself, but another contractor claims its no good for sidewalks and does damage.


What kind of contractor told you this? A concrete contractor?


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

I know. DOW chemical told him Peladow flake or pellet on any concrete walkways.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

cjames808 said:


> I know. DOW chemical told him Peladow flake or pellet on any concrete walkways.


Well wonder how makes calcium!!! I use bulk right off the pile or sander.

If you do a little research into the reaction of salt and calcium they do the same job just Thur different reactions. Calcium will dry the walks quicker than salt just calcium leaves a slim that some of my clients have complained about.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

Luther said:


> What kind of contractor told you this? A concrete contractor?


A fellow landscaping/snow removal contractor.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

I think that just as good as salt brine liquid is rotting out my car. explain nope same thing as salt no salt is not a liquid.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

I can purchase bulk salt and bag it for about 25% of the cost of buying bagged salt. I don't know why more contractors don't do it this way.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Brad3403 said:


> I can purchase bulk salt and bag it for about 25% of the cost of buying bagged salt. I don't know why more contractors don't do it this way.


So you're going to buy bulk, bag it, then open it to use it...? Yeah not sure what the hell I've been thinking this whole time...


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

How else do the sidewalk crews transport it?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Brad3403 said:


> How else do the sidewalk crews transport it?


5 gal buckets.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Brad3403 said:


> I can purchase bulk salt and bag it for about 25% of the cost of buying bagged salt. I don't know why more contractors don't do it this way.


I have a feeling that if there's any amount of moisture in it and the temps are low, they're going to be loading some 50# blocks of salt in their trucks.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

We tried that! it certainly is easier to fill the buckets as opposed to the bags. However, the buckets take up a lot more space than the bags in the trucks. We bag about 20 ton of salt at the beginning of the season. I have numerous IBC totes with the plastic liner removed and the bags are placed in them. The totes can be stacked in the shop with 50, 45lb. bags in each tote.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

EWSplow said:


> I have a feeling that if there's any amount of moisture in it and the temps are low, they're going to be loading some 50# blocks of salt in their trucks.


Yes, towards the end of the season we start to notice that. Its usually not too bad though. Drop it once on the ground and it breaks up. If we have any left over from the previous year, they are usually unusable for spreading on sidewalks.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Brad3403 said:


> How else do the sidewalk crews transport it?


So your buying bulk probably going to be around $3/50lbs anyway plus buying bags and labor to do all this... I haven't bought bagged rock in years but isn't it maybe $4/bag...? Most customers don't want big chunks of rock salt on their walks... I also prefer something with a little more oomph in it for walks too...

But if your going to use rock on walks they make salt containers for door entrances etc... A large fiberglass dock box, there are all kinds of options to use and then just shovel it in vs. bagging it...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So your buying bulk probably going to be around $3/50lbs anyway plus buying bags and labor to do all this... I haven't bought bagged rock in years but isn't it maybe $4/bag...? Most customers don't want big chunks of rock salt on their walks... I also prefer something with a little more oomph in it for walks too...
> 
> But if your going to use rock on walks they make salt containers for door entrances etc... A large fiberglass dock box, there are all kinds of options to use and then just shovel it in vs. bagging it...


Hey... don't bring math into this... Oomkes will get angry. :angry:


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Never used bulk on walks. Always used PowerThaw or ProSlicer. PowerThaw got too expensive so I went to ProSlicer. Great product imo. Almost never had grass and vegetation burn.


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## Precedence (Oct 3, 2008)

We use bulk salt for walks, we just dump a bucket full from the Bobcat right into the back of a pickup and use 5 gallon buckets on site to spread it, filling the buckets with a shovel from the back of the truck. Totally the way to go for what we pay per ton.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

At 2.25$ for 50 lbs from my bulk pile of treated salt its a no brainer.The savings is huge. Haven't bought bagged in 20 years.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

leigh said:


> At 2.25$ for 50 lbs from my bulk pile of treated salt its a no brainer.The savings is huge. Haven't bought bagged in 20 years.


Exactly!!!....it costs me roughly $4 per 50lb. bag (including salt, bag and labour)...the cheapest I can buy bagged icemelt is $12 a bag. 
I realize the pre-bagged has a few extra additives but it is essentially the same stuff. May not be as effective to quite the same low temperature but it works.

Two days ago one of our retail sites had a water line break in their front entrance. The temperature was -26 Celcius (-15 Fahrenheit). Within a short period of time there was over an inch of ice on the sidewalk and roadway. We spread a bunch of my salt on the ice and within a few hours we had it all cleared off. The salt didn't melt it all but it helped make it easier for us to "pop" the ice up.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So your buying bulk probably going to be around $3/50lbs anyway plus buying bags and labor to do all this... I haven't bought bagged rock in years but isn't it maybe $4/bag...? Most customers don't want big chunks of rock salt on their walks... I also prefer something with a little more oomph in it for walks too...
> 
> But if your going to use rock on walks they make salt containers for door entrances etc... A large fiberglass dock box, there are all kinds of options to use and then just shovel it in vs. bagging it...


There is no big chunks in the salt I use (unless it was leftover from last season, but even then it breaks up not too bad). It looks pretty much identical to many of the pre-bagged icemelt products. I sub-contract out my sidewalks and supply them with the icemelt to help keep costs down. We do have icemelt storage containers at a few of our sites but that's for the business's to be able to spread if they notice a problem instead of having to call and wait for us to attend.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Fleet Farm has our best local prices for ice melt varieties. 
Regular price on rock salt is $5.99/ 50#
I bought 3 pallets on sale in November at $3.99/ 50#
Mag chloride is $9.99/50#
It's on sale for $8.99 till February 14.
I'm going to pick up 2 pallets this week.
With what I have on hand, should get me through the season, maybe.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Trying to remember the exact price, but I'm pretty sure I paid under $4.50/bag for rock salt a couple weeks ago.

I pay more for a blend because it provides better results.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Trying to remember the exact price, but I'm pretty sure I paid under $4.50/bag for rock salt a couple weeks ago.
> 
> I pay more for a blend because it provides better results.


I should have bought more at $5. I think it's up to $5.50.
The gap is still less between the price of bags and bulk than I can remember.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> I should have bought more at $5. I think it's up to $5.50.
> The gap is still less between the price of bags and bulk than I can remember.


I was wrong...$5.57 with tax.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was wrong...$5.57 with tax.


Early, I paid $5.28 including tax.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Brad3403 said:


> How else do the sidewalk crews transport it?


Rubbermaid bins

Snow ex actually makes a bin for this purpose 
They're not as expensive as you'd think and the latch on them is a little better than the standard rubber maid

Bags are bs because they break/are puncture so easily

I make my own sidewalk blend using bulk salt and calcium 
So far it works just as good and I'm no chemist 
It's over 20% less expensive to do it my way , since I have to buy the bulk salt anyway ...


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Precedence said:


> We use bulk salt for walks, we just dump a bucket full from the Bobcat right into the back of a pickup and use 5 gallon buckets on site to spread it, filling the buckets with a shovel from the back of the truck. Totally the way to go for what we pay per ton.


Curious 
What do you use for washing your trucks 
Just a pressure washer?
Do you bother with an desalinization wash/detergent?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

tpendagast said:


> Rubbermaid bins
> 
> Snow ex actually makes a bin for this purpose
> They're not as expensive as you'd think and the latch on them is a little better than the standard rubber maid
> ...


We blend bulk with CC when it's below zero. 
The home depot black bins with yellow lids are heavy duty and stackable.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

EWSplow said:


> We blend bulk with CC when it's below zero.
> The home depot black bins with yellow lids are heavy duty and stackable.


Yea 
Same general idea


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

We started blending the two this year , when temps were below zero, but were supposed to warm up during the day.
The best thing I've found to spread salt with on walks is larger size laundry detergent containers. Use some glue to keep the cap from coming off, and cut the bottom out. I raid the recycling bin for them when I need new ones. I have one of those feed scoops to get it out of the bin into the jug.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

tpendagast said:


> Rubbermaid bins
> 
> Snow ex actually makes a bin for this purpose
> They're not as expensive as you'd think and the latch on them is a little better than the standard rubber maid
> ...


I use the poly woven bags that are generally used for sand. I put a plastic bag in as a liner and use a rebar tie to close it. The bag, liner and tie cost me 0.75 cents. When I used pails, the cheapest I could find them was $2.75 each plus $1.10 per lid. It wasn't too bad when I got all the pails and lids back but more often than not they were lost or broken. The same amount of salt in bags takes up far less space than it does in pails.
Tpendagast, are you able to post a picture of the bins your talking about?


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

This is an excerpt from the website of NSC Minerals which is where my bulk salt comes from.

"Salt crystals produced by NSC Minerals include various trace minerals such as potassium, calcium and magnesium. This unique combination of highly soluble chloride and enhancing trace minerals encapsulated within each crystal is what gives the crystal its pinkish color, making our product truly distinctive."

As evidenced in my earlier post, this bulk salt works well into the -20's Celsius range with just the natural additives found in it.

Is this salt the same as what our American friends call "rock salt"?
I will try and post a close up picture of the salt. If you go to NSC's website there are a few pictures but I didn't see any that are close up.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)




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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Brad3403 said:


> "Salt crystals produced by NSC Minerals include various trace minerals such as potassium, calcium and magnesium. This unique combination of highly soluble chloride and enhancing trace minerals encapsulated within each crystal is what gives the crystal its pinkish color, making our product truly distinctive."


Percentages?

PS I'll give you a hint...potassium chloride is a filler material and garbage for deicing. Unless the temps are well into the 20's and you have abundant sunshine. Because it ain't doing squat on it's own.

PPS Pretty sure all "rock salt" contains traces of those others, could be wrong.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Percentages?
> 
> PS I'll give you a hint...potassium chloride is a filler material and garbage for deicing. Unless the temps are well into the 20's and you have abundant sunshine. Because it ain't doing squat on it's own.
> 
> PPS Pretty sure all "rock salt" contains traces of those others, could be wrong.


I'm pretty sure potassium chloride is used in water softeners.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Brad3403 said:


> I use the poly woven bags that are generally used for sand. I put a plastic bag in as a liner and use a rebar tie to close it. The bag, liner and tie cost me 0.75 cents. When I used pails, the cheapest I could find them was $2.75 each plus $1.10 per lid. It wasn't too bad when I got all the pails and lids back but more often than not they were lost or broken. The same amount of salt in bags takes up far less space than it does in pails.
> Tpendagast, are you able to post a picture of the bins your talking about?











This,
You dont have to get this specific one, but this gives you the general idea, this is holds 11 cu ft of salt and has fork pockets.

You can get cheaper ones that are basically just big Tupperware...sits in the truck bed. This is abooouut 800 pounds of salt in this bin or 16 bags worth (assuming youre using 50 lb bags)
our typical sidewalk truck will deploy with approx 12 bags worth of deicing material per truck. You might want more if your route has a lot of sidewalks, but we run targets and walmarts this way and dont seem to run out, we just reload after each dispatch.

FWIW plastic grocery bags are getting outlawed left and right lately... I dont know if that will flow over to other plastic bags eventually.
But we will run through (on average) 51 pallets of ice melt per season (last year we went through 85 pallets) thats a lot of plastic bags!

Switching to all bulk saves about $100 per ton
at approx 51 tons thats $5100 per season. 
The box above costs $400... you can find containers cheaper, but for comparison, IF we bought THIS box that's 8 boxes at $3,200.00 and already make that money back.
We use cheaper bins that need to be replaced more often im sure, but you get the idea.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

That's not a bad idea!!! Unfortunately I use subs for the sidewalks and this has been the most practical and space efficient method we have found. 
I pick up the salt from the supplier in my own 1 yard tote bags. It would be great to just scoop the salt out of them and spread directly onto the walks but that's not practical for my subs.
I have a Snow-Ex 1.5 yard electric spreader set up in my shop that I use to fill my smaller bags. It works pretty slick!!!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Video??


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

WIPensFan said:


> Video??


I'll try and put some pictures up.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

tpendagast said:


> This.


Pretty sure this is what I'll be putting in one of my walk trucks next yr


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

plow4beer said:


> Pretty sure this is what I'll be putting in one of my walk trucks next yr


I'm tempted to try those filled with clearlane. Bagged ice melt is great but it's an insane cost.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I'm tempted to try those filled with clearlane. Bagged ice melt is great but it's an insane cost.


Define insane.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Brad3403 said:


> That's not a bad idea!!! Unfortunately I use subs for the sidewalks and this has been the most practical and space efficient method we have found.
> I pick up the salt from the supplier in my own 1 yard tote bags. It would be great to just scoop the salt out of them and spread directly onto the walks but that's not practical for my subs.
> I have a Snow-Ex 1.5 yard electric spreader set up in my shop that I use to fill my smaller bags. It works pretty slick!!!


So you took the spinner off so it feeds bags?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

tpendagast said:


> So you took the spinner off so it feeds bags?


That actually works.
Years ago, I didn't have anywhere to store salt, so I had to fill the spreader per event. We would fill plastic bins for the sidewalks by pulling the spinner off and feeding with the auger.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> That actually works.
> Years ago, I didn't have anywhere to store salt, so I had to fill the spreader per event. We would fill plastic bins for the sidewalks by pulling the spinner off and feeding with the auger.


Probably why Boss and Western made the convenient unload button in the rear...


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

tpendagast said:


> So you took the spinner off so it feeds bags?


Yes, removed the spinner. I put the spreader on a wooden frame with wheels so I can move it around the shop. Attached a battery charger to the battery. Put a toggle switch right beside the chute so you can flip it "on" or "off" easily while your holding the bag. I even put the vibrator on a switch.


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## pieperlc (Jan 4, 2005)

Will the bulk salt freeze in those tubs when temps get real cold?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

pieperlc said:


> Will the bulk salt freeze in those tubs when temps get real cold?


I use treated salt so no...it might if it was "just salt"
Does your bags of whatever icemelt you buy freeze?

Ours did if moisture got in there due to ruptured bag/sat around for a long time.


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## pieperlc (Jan 4, 2005)

tpendagast said:


> I use treated salt so no...it might if it was "just salt"
> Does your bags of whatever icemelt you buy freeze?
> 
> Ours did if moisture got in there due to ruptured bag/sat around for a long time.


My treated salt froze when we got super cold a few weeks ago. It's rare it gets that cold but......

I always thought bagged salt was dried, that's why it didn't freeze.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Brad3403 said:


> That's not a bad idea!!! Unfortunately I use subs for the sidewalks and this has been the most practical and space efficient method we have found.
> I pick up the salt from the supplier in my own 1 yard tote bags. It would be great to just scoop the salt out of them and spread directly onto the walks but that's not practical for my subs.
> I have a Snow-Ex 1.5 yard electric spreader set up in my shop that I use to fill my smaller bags. It works pretty slick!!!


Same , i jus back up the truck with a spreader, pop the spinner, However we still use bought bagged salt for a association that insists on buying there own bagged salt, we just save the bags when we are done with them.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

pieperlc said:


> My treated salt froze when we got super cold a few weeks ago. It's rare it gets that cold but......
> 
> I always thought bagged salt was dried, that's why it didn't freeze.


I've had some bags freeze but I think it's because the bags were compromised : "freeze" being pretty relative because it wasn't typically because of cold per se but because it got wet.

I've never had the salt I treat (we make our own) so much as crust over ... I don't know what magic salts recipe is ; but I imagine what I'm doing is close to that, it kinda looks the same too... air temps have been -18 so far without any trouble.
It rarely gets that cold or colder around here 
-10 is a typical "bottom"
I'd have to go to Fairbanks with a box for the week end to test it colder 
But I have a hunch it wouldn't freeze; it might not be very effective on the ground but would stay loose.


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## HuskyLawnCare (Jan 29, 2019)

The way I've taken to doing it is unhooking the spinner from the vbox and just filling 5 gallon buckets straight from the auger. This is with a Saltdogg SHPE1500, but I'm told this works on the Tornado as well.

With a 1.5 yard load I can fill 15 bins at ~200lbs per bin. We only have 6 bins out at the moment, so a bin run leaves us with enough to salt all our roadways/lots, meaning we can usually get away with filling the bins during a salt run. This is perfect for us because we have just the one truck, and the vbox being in the bed makes running bags out to the bins a no-go. It's honestly so convenient doing it this way that I hope I never have to change to another method. Of course this doesn't help if you have a customer who wants treated salt. 

Apart from one load of Egyptian salt that was super wet and froze in the bins, I haven't had any issues putting rock salt down on the sidewalks. No spalling so far.


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