# new to sidewalk guy



## trqjnky (Nov 12, 2009)

i did a search but really didnt get anything figured out. anyways, ive had a church and some residential accounts ask me to do sidewalks. but i have no idea how to price them. the church has 175 feet of sidewalk. ill be using a snowblower. how much should i charge to do the sidewalks?

and what about salt if they ask?


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## F350plowing (Oct 11, 2009)

do not use the same salt as you use in the lot on the walks it will wreck the concrete


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## trqjnky (Nov 12, 2009)

what salt dou you use on walks? im thinking adding 10 for residential sidewalks and 20 for commercial account sidewalks.


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## F350plowing (Oct 11, 2009)

used this stuff last year for the first time las year and it worked better than anything we have used before!

http://www.envirosnowmelt.com/

we have also used this before and it also worked good not as good as the other stuff but still did the job

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-7125/Grounds-Maintenance/Ice-Melt-50-lb-bag


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## I'llPLOWYou (Oct 31, 2009)

You can also use a product called Thawmaster or Magnesium Chloride. Thawmaster has salt in it but it is a blended product so it wont have the refreeze issues that cause the sidewalks to crack. The straight Mag is great stuff too. It is a little more expensive but you use less to get the same melt.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

F350plowing;859485 said:


> do not use the same salt as you use in the lot on the walks it will wreck the concrete


How does it do that?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'llPLOWYou;861692 said:


> You can also use a product called Thawmaster or Magnesium Chloride. Thawmaster has salt in it but it is a blended product so it wont have the refreeze issues that cause the sidewalks to crack. The straight Mag is great stuff too. It is a little more expensive but you use less to get the same melt.


Still spewing inaccurate BS.

Ever going to answer my questions in the other thread?


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## hairygary (Feb 19, 2009)

You can use regular rock salt on walks and it wont cause any damage, I use a blended product, which are usually a blend of rock salt and either calcium chloride or magnesium chloride. Blended products will melt a little faster than straight salt and leave your walks looking nice. Some people use straight calcium chloride on walks as it is ever faster acting, but the price is often twice of that of a blended product. Make sure sure your salt spreader has deflectors on it or you will be wasting alot of product on the grass and landscaping that should be directed on the sidewalks.


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## jimspro (Oct 9, 2009)

hairyguy, how can you say regular rock salt won't cause sidewalks any damage? i think you are mis -informed


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

jimspro;861901 said:


> hairyguy, how can you say regular rock salt won't cause sidewalks any damage? i think you are mis -informed


Please inform us.


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## hairygary (Feb 19, 2009)

jimspro;861901 said:


> hairyguy, how can you say regular rock salt won't cause sidewalks any damage? i think you are mis -informed


I think *you* were misinformed, provide some date to back up your claim, but here is whats real. 
Concrete is not damaged by contact with ice melt products. Chemically, the products don't interact with the concrete. But damage can be caused by the freeze thaw cycle that takes place. This is especially true if the liquid brine gets into the cracks in the concrete. As the ice melt product interacts with the snow and ice it forms a brine solution. The brine lowers the freezing point of water and effectively dissolves (melts) the ice and snow on contact until it becomes diluted. The brine solution can penetrate the pores of the concrete. As this solution freezes and thaws the expansion and contraction of the concrete pores results in spalling or surface deterioration. *Water by itself can penetrate the pores and cause the same reaction. *So Jim in summary, any chemical will have the same effect on concrete they just dont melt at the same speed or temperature. Now just dont damage concrete by avoiding use of ice melt products on exposed aggregate, brick masonary, unsealed asphalt and concrete less than one year old.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;861746 said:


> Ever going to answer my questions in the other thread?


I doubt it Mark. :realmad:

( I don't think he knows the answers )


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## I'llPLOWYou (Oct 31, 2009)

The reason salt can cause cracking is discussed above crete. The freeze thaw cycles create the cracking. The reason salt is most likely to create this problem is because the freezing point of straight sodium chloride is higher than a Mag/Calcium/Potassium chloride product. A blended product(Thaw Master for example) has a very high percentage of sodium chloride in the bag but with the other melting agents the freezing point is much lower thus you do not have the freeze thaw taking place. 
Sodium chloride will not create cracking because of its chemical composition it is beacuse of the freezing point of NaCl as a chemical compound. It could actually occur with any product if the temperature got down below the freezing point of that product.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

cretebaby;862691 said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


Crete, I say guys like you & I just sit back & take it all in. The more damage ignorance towards de-icing chems causes, the better off we become financially. It's merely job security!


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## jimspro (Oct 9, 2009)

you know i get the chemestry aspect of it, but the bottom line is using reg salt on concrete vs using a calcium chloride or other ice melter,may have damage when all is said and done. i have used both and give my customer the choice


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'llPLOWYou;862668 said:


> The reason salt can cause cracking is discussed above crete. The freeze thaw cycles create the cracking. The reason salt is most likely to create this problem is because the freezing point of straight sodium chloride is higher than a Mag/Calcium/Potassium chloride product. A blended product(Thaw Master for example) has a very high percentage of sodium chloride in the bag but with the other melting agents the freezing point is much lower thus you do not have the freeze thaw taking place.
> Sodium chloride will not create cracking because of its chemical composition it is beacuse of the freezing point of NaCl as a chemical compound. It could actually occur with any product if the temperature got down below the freezing point of that product.


I know the mods don't like it when I do this, but you're an idiot.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;863587 said:


> I know the mods don't like it when I do this, but you're an idiot.


Sometime it just needs to be said.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'llPLOWYou;862668 said:


> The reason salt can cause cracking is discussed above crete. The freeze thaw cycles create the cracking. The reason salt is most likely to create this problem is because the freezing point of straight sodium chloride is higher than a Mag/Calcium/Potassium chloride product. A blended product(Thaw Master for example) has a very high percentage of sodium chloride in the bag but with the other melting agents the freezing point is much lower thus you do not have the freeze thaw taking place.
> Sodium chloride will not create cracking because of its chemical composition it is beacuse of the freezing point of NaCl as a chemical compound. It could actually occur with any product if the temperature got down below the freezing point of that product.


What the heck does the bold-faced type mean?

Let's try this again.

It's 25* F. You have cleared the snow off the walk and apply mag or calcium--take your pic--and it starts snowing 1 hour later.

What happens to the treated walk?

If you want, I'll give you a hint. Let me know.


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## wdcs1 (Nov 12, 2009)

I don not salt sidewalks but love the guys around here that do. I run a concrete restoration company in the summer months. All that ice melter really makes for good business re paring all the spawling on the concrete.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

wdcs1;864719 said:


> I don not salt sidewalks but love the guys around here that do. I run a concrete restoration company in the summer months. All that ice melter really makes for good business re paring all the spawling on the concrete.


Then someone is doing a crappy job of installing concrete.

Salt does NOT chemically attack, damage or harm concrete.

Hope you aren't one of the misinformed ones as well.


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## I'llPLOWYou (Oct 31, 2009)

Come on Mark. You should know there are more variables to this equation than what you are giving. Temperature is important but there are also other factors. 
WDCS1- You should help these guys out a bit. I think they could use your insight! I have tried but maybe they need a true concrete expert to tell them the facts!


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

I'llPLOWYou;862668 said:


> The reason salt can cause cracking is discussed above crete. The freeze thaw cycles create the cracking. The reason salt is most likely to create this problem is because the freezing point of straight sodium chloride is higher than a Mag/Calcium/Potassium chloride product. A blended product(Thaw Master for example) has a very high percentage of sodium chloride in the bag but with the other melting agents the freezing point is much lower thus you do not have the freeze thaw taking place.
> Sodium chloride will not create cracking because of its chemical composition it is beacuse of the freezing point of NaCl as a chemical compound. It could actually occur with any product if the temperature got down below the freezing point of that product.





I'llPLOWYou;865024 said:


> Come on Mark. You should know there are more variables to this equation than what you are giving. Temperature is important but there are also other factors.
> WDCS1- You should help these guys out a bit. I think they could use your insight! I have tried but maybe they need a true concrete expert to tell them the facts!


These could be possibly the 2 most contradictory posts made by the same person I've seen here yet. You putting yourself on the same level as a "concrete expert" & also proclaiming that salt will "crack" concrete is rediculous.

What some *DE-ICER"S * actually due to concrete is create spalling/delamination/pealing, nothing to do with cracking.

Now to the meat of the post: I will never to claim to be an expert in my field. I am indead though a masonry/concrete contractor who has done his best to educate himself in his field to separate himself from his competition. What you have posted doesn't make any sense to me. Rock salt (sodium chloride) & calcium chloride are 2 of the safer de-icer's that can be applied to a concrete surface, along with what's probably the safest: Urea.

Mag. chloride has questionable results on damage to concrete: Old studies show that it was safe, but newer studies show that it may have some ill effects do to some complicated studies.

Amonium sulfate & amonium nitrate ARE 2 substances to most definately stear clear from when it comes to concrete. There is no doubt that they can have chemical reactions with concrete.

I will agree that ANY de-icer can have a negative impact on concrete do to increased freeze-thaw cycles introduced to the concrete. Although, this was covered previously (by the Dutchman himself ) that a good quality concrete application has the provisions in place to handle this. As much as I hate to say it, the field in which I work has a fair amount of un-educated tradesman who only wish to point the finger & install in the same fashion their fore-fathers did years before, rather than adapt to today's tecniques & materials. What that means is alot of you snow & ice contractors have to do some work to CYA.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

jomama45;865241 said:


> These could be possibly the 2 most contradictory posts made by the same person I've seen here yet. You putting yourself on the same level as a "concrete expert" & also proclaiming that salt will "crack" concrete is rediculous.
> 
> What some *DE-ICER"S * actually due to concrete is create spalling/delamination/pealing, nothing to do with cracking.
> 
> ...


agreed, good post!


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## jimspro (Oct 9, 2009)

Mark, are you calling me an idiot?


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## I'llPLOWYou (Oct 31, 2009)

jomama45;865241 said:


> These could be possibly the 2 most contradictory posts made by the same person I've seen here yet. You putting yourself on the same level as a "concrete expert" & also proclaiming that salt will "crack" concrete is rediculous.
> 
> Jomama I did not contradict myself in these post at all. I was not comparing myself to, nor claiming to be an expert on concrete. These post were made after 2 different post. I've got an idea, when you learn to spell ridiculous (btw its not "rediculous":laughing we will discuss scientific matters pertaining to ice melters.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

trqjnky;859476 said:


> i did a search but really didnt get anything figured out. anyways, ive had a church and some residential accounts ask me to do sidewalks. but i have no idea how to price them. the church has 175 feet of sidewalk. ill be using a snowblower. how much should i charge to do the sidewalks?
> 
> and what about salt if they ask?


Minimum 1 hr labor $$(whatever that may be for you) + X amount of $'s/ bag for salt (X = "usually" 3x's what purchase price is for you, minimum charge of 1 bag) = Grand Total per trip...hopfully that will give some ideas to figure out a price. I havent seen the place, so there are obviously variables to consider....like, is this the only walk you'll do? do you have 10 more like this within 1 mile of each other? etc. etc. etc......


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

I'llPLOWYou;865321 said:


> jomama45;865241 said:
> 
> 
> > These could be possibly the 2 most contradictory posts made by the same person I've seen here yet. You putting yourself on the same level as a "concrete expert" & also proclaiming that salt will "crack" concrete is rediculous.
> ...


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

I'llPLOWYou;865321 said:


> I've got an idea, when you learn to spell ridiculous (btw its not "rediculous":laughing we will discuss scientific matters pertaining to ice melters.


Maybe you could figure out how to post a quote before you worry about typos.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

jomama45;865365 said:


> OK , you are obviously far more educated than I,so please explain the the "scientific materrs" O masterful genius!
> 
> BTW, I aplogize for my ignorance in not downloading the spell check; this obviously eludes to my misunderstanding of concrete & de-icers!
> 
> Snocrete, thanks for the backing, I always assumed you were one that had a crazy mindset similar to mine. Good luck making a living with such a silly mindset!


I don't think I will be taking any lessons from an "expert" that thinks that sodium chloride doesn't work below 20*.


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## I'llPLOWYou (Oct 31, 2009)

Easy there crete, I never claimed to be an "expert." It seems to me you are trying to make me out to be the bad guy in this. I never used the word "expert" in any reference to myself on any post I have made.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

I'llPLOWYou;865455 said:


> Easy there crete, I never claimed to be an "expert." It seems to me you are trying to make me out to be the bad guy in this. I never used the word "expert" in any reference to myself on any post I have made.


I was being sarcastic. 

Trust me we all know your not an expert.


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## wdcs1 (Nov 12, 2009)

Each person going on there own experiences with cracking and spawling is a hard to know. Unless you know what type of concrete has been poured you could use the same ice melter on two different pads and get different results even with the same weather. Factors such as slump at time of pour, workmanship, what blend was used 5 vs 6 vs 7 bag concrete and most importantly was it air-orated or not. Air-orating concrete allows room for the water to expand as it freezes. If I remember right salt does not melt ice it absorbs water and once dissolved in water the crystalline structure of salt does not allow it to refreeze. If it continues to snow after application of salt the water/salt solution will be diluted effectively raising it's freeze point, allowing the water to refreeze. Will not form cracks but will make existing cracks larger as water enters crack freezes expands. *Instead of wondering why it happens, bring in more income by asking customers if they would like to take part in a concrete sealing program that will drastically reduce spawling in there concrete. Sealing is easy and takes minimal tools to apply, [/B I use either rock salt or urea nitrate at my own home, but then all of my concrete is sealed every other year. Be it wright or wrong it's what works for me.*


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

wdcs1;865544 said:


> Instead of wondering why it happens, bring in more income by asking customers if they would like to take part in a concrete sealing program that will drastically reduce spawling in there concrete. Sealing is easy and takes minimal tools to apply, [/B I use either rock salt or urea nitrate at my own home, but then all of my concrete is sealed every other year. Be it wright or wrong it's what works for me.


But what if they don't need their properly installed and cured concrete sealed?

Are you trying to tell me that the acres and acres of concrete that I treat every year are falling apart as we speak because they are not sealed? Even though they aren't falling apart?

Sealing may help with improperly installed and cured concrete, but it's a waste of money if they paid for the job to be done right the first time.

As for using the thaw\refreeze cycle to create spalling, yes, that can happen. But this happens with any deicer, whether it is calcium chloride, sodium chloride, mag chloride, the acetates, the CMA's, urea, etc, etc, etc.

This is for I'llPLOWYou. It's called dilution. The effective working temp of a deicer has little (sometimes nothing) to do with the thaw\refreezed cycle. Basically what you are saying is, if we apply calcium or mag chloride because it has a lower effective temp, we will never have to reapply. We have to reapply probably 90% of the time because of dilution of solution of WHATEVER deicer we use by continued snowfall. The only other reason is because someone underapplied and the temp dropped.


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## wdcs1 (Nov 12, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;866072 said:


> But what if they don't need their properly installed and cured concrete sealed?
> 
> Are you trying to tell me that the acres and acres of concrete that I treat every year are falling apart as we speak because they are not sealed? Even though they aren't falling apart?
> 
> ...


If it don't need to be sealed then why are you worried about dilution of your ice melter. Sealing is cheap how much do you charge over the winter in reapplying ice melter. I am not a chemist so you would have to know how much each product may be diluted and still maintain it's deicing capabilities.


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## I'llPLOWYou (Oct 31, 2009)

Mark, please show me where I have EVER said multiple applications would (or would not) have to be made by using a Mag/Calcium chloride product. I have never questioned that aspect of the products. You are trying to put words in my mouth that NEVER came out! That needs to STOP NOW!
Based on the question you asked there were missing variables. The freezing point of the brine, what is created when the material melts the snow/ice,will change based on the material used. If this brine goes through a freeze/thaw cycle in can create spalling of the concrete. Next time you want to ask a question give somebody the info they need to answer it. Don't be vague then later give them the answer. I knew the answer you were looking for from the start but wanted to see if you knew what the missing variables were. Looks like you dont!


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)




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## JR Snow Removal (Jul 16, 2008)

X2 :
Oh and something to wash it down with


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## wdcs1 (Nov 12, 2009)

(Note: If you're already familiar with chemical potentials, you may be interested in this alternative thermodynamic explanation.)

Two things happen when ice and water are placed in contact:

* Molecules on the surface of the ice escape into the water (melting), and
* molecules of water are captured on the surface of the ice (freezing).

When the rate of freezing is the same as the rate of melting, the amount of ice and the amount of water won't change on average (although there are short-term fluctuations at the surface of the ice). The ice and water are said to be in dynamic equilibrium with each other. The balance between freezing and melting can be maintained at 0°C, the melting point of water, unless conditions change in a way that favors one of the processes over the other.

If you don't see the animation above, a nonanimated version is available; or you can download the free Flash plugin from Macromedia.
The balance between freezing and melting processes can easily be upset. If the ice/water mixture is cooled, the molecules move slower. The slower-moving molecules are more easily captured by the ice, and freezing occurs at a greater rate than melting. You can see a demonstration of this by clicking on the temperature in the animation and setting it to a lower value (say, -10).

Conversely, heating the mixture makes the molecules move faster on average, and melting is favored. Reset the animation and then enter a higher value for the temperature (say 10) and watch what happens.

Adding salt to the system will also disrupt the equilibrium. Consider replacing some of the water molecules with molecules of some other substance. The foreign molecules dissolve in the water, but do not pack easily into the array of molecules in the solid. Try hitting the "Add Solute" button in the animation above. Notice that there are fewer water molecules on the liquid side because the some of the water has been replaced by salt. The total number of waters captured by the ice per second goes down, so the rate of freezing goes down. The rate of melting is unchanged by the presence of the foreign material, so melting occurs faster than freezing.

That's why salt melts ice.

found this somewhere did not know this! Below
Avoid the use of fertilizers as deicing and traction agents. Those that contain ammonium nitrate and ammonium sulfate can rapidly disintegrate concrete.

just one more
http://www.cement.org/tech/faq_deicers.asp
and look I found more people arguing about it.http://forum.doityourself.com/archive/index.php/t-290232.html
Sorry this post is so long could not get a link to work for the top info. Thanks all


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## I'llPLOWYou (Oct 31, 2009)

wdcs1, nice info. I read one link and seemed to be a good find.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;866072 said:


> But what if they don't need their properly installed and cured concrete sealed?
> 
> Are you trying to tell me that the acres and acres of concrete that I treat every year are falling apart as we speak because they are not sealed? Even though they aren't falling apart?
> 
> Sealing may help with improperly installed and cured concrete, but it's a waste of money if they paid for the job to be done right the first time.


Mark, I'm with you an MOST of this. I actually give you a lot of credit for obtaining this knowledge, as I had taken it for granted that you were a landscaper (tulip bulb planter) mostly.

The only thing I would tend to disagree with is the sealing issue of concrete. Sealing concrete every few years can only be beneficial. It IS an added expense & PITA obviously, & possibly overkill in many situations. It will also hurt the long term rep. that you can simply place concrete & have little to no maintenance, especially when compared to other pavings like asphalt.

Within the last few years, the cement powders being produced have changed for the worst. The EPA has set far higher standards on the cement producers (I'm sure more is coming seeing this admin.) & forced them to re-enter alot of particulate matter (what was always waste) back into the cement. These impurities are just ground & re-ground, etc.. until they can meet standards. It seems today's cement is far inferior to what we had been using for years. Thus, I think there will be a push in the near future by our industry to promote the use of long term sealers to help extend the life of all concrete.

I'd still agree with you that a properly placed and cured quality concrete project should have NO problem withstanding either the elements in which it's placed or the normal de-icing operations present.

I've had this convo with a few quality control guys at RM plants we use over the last few years. Right now, everyone in this industry is trying to cover their own rear-end. It seems like using higher quality sealers is the simplest way to approach it at this point.

From the snow & ice cont. standpoint, CYA is probaly in order too, presumably by educating the customers & being clear in your contracts about de-icing.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

jomama45;866503 said:


> Mark, I'm with you an MOST of this. I actually give you a lot of credit for obtaining this knowledge, as I had taken it for granted that you were a landscaper (tulip bulb planter) mostly.
> 
> The only thing I would tend to disagree with is the sealing issue of concrete. Sealing concrete every few years can only be beneficial. It IS an added expense & PITA obviously, & possibly overkill in many situations. It will also hurt the long term rep. that you can simply place concrete & have little to no maintenance, especially when compared to other pavings like asphalt.
> 
> ...


Soooo...........I'm still good to salt the crap out of my lots', right?


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

TCLA;866540 said:


> Soooo...........I'm still good to salt the crap out of my lots', right?


As long as you continue to use Kosher Pickling salt spread by hand in the "feeding the chickens" fashion, you should have no concerns! 

In all seriousness, most if not all of the major concrete assoc. accept that calcium & sodium chloride are SAFE concrete de-icers, as long as they are not applied the very first winter. After that, any problems using these two should be directed to the installer.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jomama45;866503 said:


> Mark, I'm with you an MOST of this. I actually give you a lot of credit for obtaining this knowledge, as I had taken it for granted that you were a landscaper (tulip bulb planter) mostly.
> 
> The only thing I would tend to disagree with is the sealing issue of concrete. Sealing concrete every few years can only be beneficial. It IS an added expense & PITA obviously, & possibly overkill in many situations. It will also hurt the long term rep. that you can simply place concrete & have little to no maintenance, especially when compared to other pavings like asphalt.
> 
> ...


I can understand where you're coming from Joe. I could probably even get to the point I agree with you. 

And I realize that it is probably too late when someone realizes they didn't have properly installed and cured concrete, because when it spalls is when you know it was a crappy job. So you may have a point.

Guess I was going too far to the other side because the other guy implied that sealed concrete is the only safe concrete to use salt on.



jomama45;866572 said:


> As long as you continue to use Kosher Pickling salt spread by hand in the "feeding the chickens" fashion, you should have no concerns!
> 
> In all seriousness, most if not all of the major concrete assoc. accept that calcium & sodium chloride are SAFE concrete de-icers, *as long as they are not applied the very first winter.* After that, any problems using these two should be directed to the installer.


Not true, not true.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

:laughing:boy we are all chemists on here, well i am not, so i a shall sit back


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;867266 said:


> Not true, not true.


Remember, that's not MY opinion necessarily, I'm just stating that it's kinda an industry standard. You may very well have info that differs, which I'd be open minded enough to read if that's the case.

As for the sealing, I can agree with where you're coming from also. The vast majority of the standard, non-deco concrete I've placed in the last 11 years of business merely saw a cheap water-based curing sealent that offers next to zero defense for the concrete surface. Knock on wood, I'm one of the few in my area that hasn't had big spalling problems on their recent jobs over the past 2 winters, which have been harsher than normal. Ironically, we've also got pretty strict, standard procedures (READ: I respect the fact that the concrete I'm getting paid for now SHOULD last longer than me) when placing, finishing, & curing concrete.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jomama45;867900 said:


> Remember, that's not MY opinion necessarily, I'm just stating that it's kinda an industry standard. *You may very well have info that differs, which I'd be open minded enough to read if that's the case.*
> 
> As for the sealing, I can agree with where you're coming from also. The vast majority of the standard, non-deco concrete I've placed in the last 11 years of business merely saw a cheap water-based curing sealent that offers next to zero defense for the concrete surface. Knock on wood, I'm one of the few in my area that hasn't had big spalling problems on their recent jobs over the past 2 winters, which have been harsher than normal. Ironically, we've also got pretty strict, standard procedures (READ: I respect the fact that the concrete I'm getting paid for now SHOULD last longer than me) when placing, finishing, & curing concrete.


Nothing to read, just experience.


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## wdcs1 (Nov 12, 2009)

jomama45;867900 said:


> Remember, that's not MY opinion necessarily, I'm just stating that it's kinda an industry standard. You may very well have info that differs, which I'd be open minded enough to read if that's the case.
> 
> As for the sealing, I can agree with where you're coming from also. The vast majority of the standard, non-deco concrete I've placed in the last 11 years of business merely saw a cheap water-based curing sealant that offers next to zero defense for the concrete surface. Knock on wood, I'm one of the few in my area that hasn't had big spalling problems on their recent jobs over the past 2 winters, which have been harsher than normal. Ironically, we've also got pretty strict, standard procedures (READ: I respect the fact that the concrete I'm getting paid for now SHOULD last longer than me) when placing, finishing, & curing concrete.


I'd say I wish they had that kind of standard around here, but then I would be out of work.
Just want to let all know I do agree with properly poured concrete should stand up against deicers, 
But I worked for guys around here for 10 years and not one of them held to that standard 100% of the time. Time and money came first, then a good job. And due to this the city has implemented that all concrete poured for the city by contractors must have a cure and seal applied when the concrete is first poured. 
And the post about inferior concrete is wright around here. My brother in law works at the batch plant for a large concrete company and back when the shortage of powder hit they started experimenting with alternative additives to bring down the cost of concrete. Witch left them with a cheap low grade concrete. They are now paying the price as it all is deteriorating prematurely.


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## F350plowing (Oct 11, 2009)




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## Bill QT (Nov 17, 2009)

On several threads that I go to, there are a couple of guys calling each other liars and idiots. Why? If I knew ahead of time, I would not go to these threads. Is this just a characteristic of this site?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Bill QT;872847 said:


> On several threads that I go to, there are a couple of guys calling each other liars and idiots. Why? If I knew ahead of time, I would not go to these threads. Is this just a characteristic of this site?


Is it wrong if it's the truth?


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## MileHigh (Nov 6, 2007)

Bill QT;872847 said:


> On several threads that I go to, there are a couple of guys calling each other liars and idiots. Why? If I knew ahead of time, I would not go to these threads. Is this just a characteristic of this site?


Please post these threads as I love reading other posters ripping new rear ends in others.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;872856 said:


> Is it wrong if it's the truth?


Mark, I found what I am getting 'llPLOWYou for Christmas.










:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cretebaby;873358 said:


> Mark, I found what I am getting 'llPLOWYou for Christmas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LMAO, nice Scott. I'll pay half and we can send it from both of us.


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

I own a concrete company and we get tons of calls regarding spawling. We take core samples of these problem areas and send them to a lab. 9 times out of 10 we find the damage to be caused by rock salt. I am not a scientist but I know if salt is found on these samples the owner is out of luck. We have been to court for this and always comes out in the labs favor!!


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

maxximus98;882937 said:


> I own a concrete company and we get tons of calls regarding spawling. We take core samples of these problem areas and send them to a lab. 9 times out of 10 we find the damage to be caused by rock salt. I am not a scientist but I know if salt is found on these samples the owner is out of luck. We have been to court for this and always comes out in the labs favor!!


I think you need a new lab.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

maxximus98;882937 said:


> I own a concrete company and we get tons of calls regarding spawling. We take core samples of these problem areas and send them to a lab. 9 times out of 10 we find the damage to be caused by rock salt. I am not a scientist but I know if salt is found on these samples the owner is out of luck. We have been to court for this and always comes out in the labs favor!!


Who's the supplier, Meyers or Prarie?


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

I use a few suppliers Prairie Ozinga and Naperville (when all others are busy). I am not really making an argument either way so take it easy on me. I just know that cal. chloride is my recommended de-icer. If salt was safe for concrete why wouldn't concrete companies use it rather than calcium for rapid setting in cooler conditions??


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

cretebaby;882955 said:


> I think you need a new lab.


That's an elaborate response!!! These are labs provided by many different sources. I even had a homeowner hire their own private lab to only get same response!!


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

maxximus98;882968 said:


> I use a few suppliers Prairie Ozinga and Naperville (when all others are busy). I am not really making an argument either way so take it easy on me. I just know that cal. chloride is my recommended de-icer. If salt was safe for concrete why wouldn't concrete companies use it rather than calcium for rapid setting in cooler conditions??


Your ready-mix supplier & labs should be consistent with organizations like the PCA. I think this is just another case of "pass the buck". Take a look at this link from the PCA:
http://www.cement.org/tech/faq_deicers.asp

It has alot of good, simple info on de-icers.

Mark O said it earlier, quite simply, the contractor (or supplier) isn't putting down a top notch job. If concrete can't handle rock salt, there's probably something more wrong with it.

BTW, Prairie is by far the worst ready-mix (at least their division up here) supplier that I've ever seen when it comes to QC. Of course the lawyer for a multi-multi-million dollar company can beat "joe-hoeowner" in court.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

maxximus98;882976 said:


> That's an elaborate response!!! These are labs provided by many different sources. I even had a homeowner hire their own private lab to only get same response!!


How do they prove that it was the rock salt?

Can they determine between rock salt and diluted calcium? or plain water and rock salt? or plain water and calcium?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

jomama45;882996 said:



> Your ready-mix supplier & labs should be consistent with organizations like the PCA. I think this is just another case of "pass the buck". Take a look at this link from the PCA:
> http://www.cement.org/tech/faq_deicers.asp
> 
> It has alot of good, simple info on de-icers.
> ...


Good reading Joe.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

maxximus98;882968 said:


> If salt was safe for concrete why wouldn't concrete companies use it rather than calcium for rapid setting in cooler conditions??


Calcium chloride is a salt. The main ingredient of cement (not concrete) is limestone which is composed mainly or entirely of calcium carbonate. The addition of a chloride will speed the curing process of concrete. That's why we generally use calcium chloride for rapid setting of concrete. Sodium added to cement will remove the porosity (air) of concrete. therefor it should not be used to speed curing of concrete. Sodium is used in some concrete mixtures for concrete exposed to high temperatures such as fire place linings where air is not desirable.

I've done miles of curb and sidewalk and have yet to see any city or town wait a year before they start throwing the salt to it. As long as the concrete is properly air entrained and cured I've yet to see a problem with spalling due to salt.

The most common way that concrete looses air is because of adding too much water in the first place.
Did the lab report on air entrainment?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

maxximus98;882937 said:


> I own a concrete company and we get tons of calls regarding spawling. We take core samples of these problem areas and send them to a lab. 9 times out of 10 we find the damage to be caused by rock salt. I am not a scientist but I know if salt is found on these samples the owner is out of luck. We have been to court for this and always comes out in the labs favor!!





cretebaby;882955 said:


> I think you need a new lab.





maxximus98;882976 said:


> That's an elaborate response!!! These are labs provided by many different sources. I even had a homeowner hire their own private lab to only get same response!!





jomama45;882996 said:


> Your ready-mix supplier & labs should be consistent with organizations like the PCA. I think this is just another case of "pass the buck". Take a look at this link from the PCA:
> http://www.cement.org/tech/faq_deicers.asp
> 
> It has alot of good, simple info on de-icers.
> ...


Methinks you guys chased off another newbie.  :laughing:

Without me! :realmad:

Maxximus, you and your labs are wrong. Crete is right on with his _elaborate_ response.

Once again, I ask you (since the other maroon went away), what is the most widely used de-icer in the world on asphalt *AND* concrete?

If salt (sodium chloride) is truly harmful to concrete, why are roads and bridges not falling apart even faster than they are? If your lab and your statements are true, roads and bridges would be falling apart within a year or two of being built? But they aren't?

Do tell, especially after Joe's link from the PCA.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

maxximus98;882937 said:


> I own a concrete company and we get tons of calls regarding spawling. We take core samples of these problem areas and send them to a lab. 9 times out of 10 we find the damage to be caused by rock salt. I am not a scientist but I know if salt is found on these samples the owner is out of luck. We have been to court for this and always comes out in the labs favor!!


I gotta say ********...9 times outa 10 spawling is caused by OVER finishing..The contractor sprays water on the surface to help speed along finishing..Also adding water to the mix to loosen it up in the truck will screw up the mix design....Core samples will not reveal anything but the PSI of the concrete when you break the sample....I have seen so many of these posts i had to speak-up..Salt will not hurt properly cured and finished concrete...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Matson Snow;883717 said:


> I gotta say ********...9 times outa 10 spawling is caused by OVER finishing..The contractor sprays water on the surface to help speed along finishing..Also adding water to the mix to loosen it up in the truck will screw up the mix design....Core samples will not reveal anything but the PSI of the concrete when you break the sample....I have seen so many of these posts i had to speak-up..Salt will not hurt properly cured and finished concrete...


Oh horse hockey, salt harms concrete, end of story.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;883722 said:


> Oh horse hockey, salt harms concrete, end of story.


You better watch out or im calling illplowyou....:laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Matson Snow;883725 said:


> You better watch out or im calling illplowyou....:laughing:


Sweeeeeeet, I'm up for some fun again.

Hopefully maxxxxxxxxxxxximus will rejoin the conversation.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

maxximus98;882976 said:


> That's an elaborate response!!! These are labs provided by many different sources. I even had a homeowner hire their own private lab to only get same response!!


VERY EXPENSIVE to pull core samples and send them to a lab....Seldom does it come to that...Salt does NOT hurt concrete. Bad concrete finishers do....


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

bbbbbbbb


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Matson Snow;883773 said:


> VERY EXPENSIVE to pull core samples and send them to a lab....Seldom does it come to that...Salt does NOT hurt concrete. Bad concrete finishers do....


and bad material suppliers (readymix plants getting poor materials and/or cutting corners).

P.S. I think this thread has Mark O foaming at the mouth....better watch out maximatus


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

snocrete;883957 said:


> and bad material suppliers (readymix plants getting poor materials and/or cutting corners).
> 
> P.S. I think this thread has Mark O foaming at the mouth....better watch out maximatus


Yup..I agree...This day and age concrete is full of fly ash, slag, admixtures..But you still need to know what and how to order concrete and how to finish it....Its to easy to blame the product.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

I agree, buuuut



Matson Snow;883998 said:


> ..But you still need to know what and how to order concrete
> 
> *you may not get it though, and slight short cuts by the plant cost big. This will happen to the small guy more so than the BIG company, because the plant knows core samples are rarely taken by smaller companies on a regular basis, its just not cost prohibitive..... I promise you this happens more than you think*
> 
> ...


...........


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

snocrete;884059 said:


> I agree, buuuut
> 
> ...........


Points all well taken and agree with all of them....


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## Tony717 (Dec 1, 2009)

Looks like an intense discussion is going on here.

Just wanted to put in my two cents on product. Check out Midwest Industries' stuff: http://www.midwestind.com/antiicefreezing.htm Their stuff is environmentally friendly and all that jazz. It's worth a look. Good luck with the job.


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## snowman4 (Nov 25, 2007)

I gave up on reading this forum but in Ottawa 90% of our municipal sidewalks are concrete. They get salted. They do not have problems.


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## snowman4 (Nov 25, 2007)

Also, my neighbour is an Eng who runs some of the bigger office building in downtown Ottawa. They only allow salt and laugh at the contractors who try to sell them that other concrete safe ****. It actually has a more harmful effect.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cretebaby;883883 said:


> bbbbbbbb


Shoulda brought the cart Scott.

Wonder where maxxxxxxxxximus went?

IllPlowYou, you out there?

Sure you don't care to edumacate the concrete guys here that have proven you wrong over and over and over and over and over and over and over, well you get the idea, again?

I'd really like to see some proof from you guys who claim salt harms concrete. Real, actual proof. But I won't be holding my breath.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;884699 said:


> Shoulda brought the cart Scott.
> 
> Wonder where maxxxxxxxxximus went?
> 
> ...


Me Too.........


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

I've used staining techniques that require salts to obtain the finish. Ever hear of "salt finish"? I've never done a salt finish myself but it sounds interesting.

http://www.concretenetwork.com/rock-salt-finish/


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;884699 said:


> Shoulda brought the cart Scott. :


Sorry. JD needed it in another thread.



Mark Oomkes;884699 said:


> Wonder where maxxxxxxxxximus went?
> 
> IllPlowYou, you out there?
> 
> ...





Matson Snow;885035 said:


> Me Too.........


Me three.


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## jhutch (Nov 17, 2009)

We do a lot of concrete sealing in Kansas City with SealRx (www.sealrx.com). Application is relatively simple with the proper equipment. Really helps stop the damage by salts/deicers.


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