# For those of you with employees....question



## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

For those of you paying employees to plow for you i have a question. Do you just pay them a solid hourly rate regardless of what they are plowing?

For example i have a route of about 16 driveways that pays a few hours.

But then i plow 2 banks and a fairly large lot at the end of my route. the banks take about 35-40 minutes each and the other lot takes a solid 1 hour and 15 minute. 

The problem is i only make 25-35 per hour depending on how the snow falls. So my issue is that the biggest lot takes about 1/8 of a tank of fuel which costs about 12-15 dollars, and i only get 35-40 dollars to plow it, so to clear a huge lot im only making about 15-25 dollars profit. Does this sound correct


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Your rate is way to low,even for Buffalo! If you pay him by the hour doesn't matter what he's plowing.


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

x2. If you're only getting 35-40 dollars to plow your biggest lot which takes a "solid hour and 15 minutes" then you need to triple or quadruple what you are charging.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Holy crap! If you're willing to work that cheap I have a few ideas!!! LOL 
Not to tell you how to run your business but you should pay your guys their regular rate no matter what they are plowing.


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## Eronningen (Dec 20, 2008)

Employees are always paid their hourly rate the entire time they are working for me. Sounds like you need to go back to the drawing board with your estimating and bidding


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## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

I was hoping the OP meant he is PROFITING 35-40 (still WAY too little). As far as his question, my employees are paid their said rate for the time they are working. You wanna work for me as a sub lol i'll double your profit margin lol


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

Clearly i need to find an employer in this area that is paying better wages. On 4-6 hour trips im only making 100-150 dollars and i have to run my own truck and fuel. 

Its a shame that in my area there are so many employer yet i have not been able to find a good one even with a college education and 8 years experience in snow removal using my own equipment


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

So your a sub not a company hiring guys.


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

Yes i am a "sub" i guess but more of an employee, i get an hourly rate. In my opinion a "sub" has contracted work for a specified compensation. Employees get hourly rates to do as they are told.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

You are an owner who subs himself out.


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

There is no way in my current situation that at 25-35 per hour that i am covering the use of my truck, fuel, and still making money. Regardless of the little amount of snow we have had its almost better off because im not making enough to make it worth it anyhow.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

What do think a fair rate would be for you?


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

grandview;1448015 said:


> You are an owner who subs himself out.


In theory, yes i guess that i am, i never really saw it that way because im only "subbing" to 1 person, and its getting to be a tough situation because he doesn't understand that plowing 2 banks, a large lot, and 20 drives should pay more than 100 dollars, because its costing me 40-50 in fuel.

@ Grandview, any ideas on how to go about subbing for anyone else that would be a little more fair? Soon im going to need work for summer and i dont want to over invest in equipment and insurance unless i can rope in some work.


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

grandview;1448020 said:


> What do think a fair rate would be for you?


I am running a 2006 crew cab, 6.0 diesel, with a 8.5 vplow.

Judging by my current earnings and expenses i think that i would need to see at least double from what i am now.

If i wanted to spring for proper insurance, advertising, and feel like i would be able to afford to maintain my truck after the plowing season

In my honest opinion i am thinking around 50-60/hour


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

He understands,he hired you and you agreed to that rate.You can just play out the season and look again.As for summer work if your going to do anything with another company,you'll be in the 8-12 hr area. Since your subbing ,I assume you have GL and commercial insurance ,if so any reason why you can't go on your own?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Did you buy that truck to plow with or was it a daily driver first?


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

grandview;1448041 said:


> He understands,he hired you and you agreed to that rate.You can just play out the season and look again.As for summer work if your going to do anything with another company,you'll be in the 8-12 hr area. Since your subbing ,I assume you have GL and commercial insurance ,if so any reason why you can't go on your own?


I took his work based on the fact that he told me he was going to actually sub me work. As far as signing up extra work, taking out some of the money and paying me to do the rest. Seeing as i am only plowing for him as an hourly rate type deal i do not see that as subbing.

I do plow on my own, i only have about 10 drives. When i decided i need to plow it was late in the year. I have had crew cab f250's with plows forever, regardless if im plowing as a business or not.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Don't matter,any way you look at it. your a sub,your an employee when you sign all the paper work and get a w-2 that makes you an employee.Just go and pick up more work for yourself next year.

As for the truck,you need to work out the percent of your truck as to personal and business.


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

grandview;1448063 said:


> Don't matter,any way you look at it. your a sub,your an employee when you sign all the paper work and get a w-2 that makes you an employee.Just go and pick up more work for yourself next year.
> 
> As for the truck,you need to work out the percent of your truck as to personal and business.


Much easier said then done. If i don't find some work for summer i don't know if ill make it to next winter. I do have an interview with a place that called me for sub work tomorrow.


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

Mrplow247;1448026 said:


> I am running a 2006 crew cab, 6.0 diesel, with a 8.5 vplow.
> 
> Judging by my current earnings and expenses i think that i would need to see at least double from what i am now.
> 
> ...


More, start at 75 one hour min. and see the response.tymusic


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

Chineau;1448147 said:


> More, start at 75 one hour min. and see the response.tymusic


haha, i know the response.

The highest paid person i know of in my are makes 35/hr


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## kashman (Jan 13, 2004)

Mrplow247;1448167 said:


> haha, i know the response.
> 
> The highest paid person i know of in my are makes 35/hr


get a hand shovel k thats what that pay is worth


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

Avg sub rate in my area--- truck---driver---own ins & fuel--- -$75per hr- usually 4hr min

Not worth the risk for anything less. 

Experience a must


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## downtoearthnh (Jan 16, 2009)

I see more problems ahead, when this guy gets a 1099 at the end of the year and the IRS wants their share of his $100 per storm. The only one making any money here is the guy who doesnt have to plow the driveways and banks to get the initial payment.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

downtoearthnh;1448304 said:


> I see more problems ahead, when this guy gets a 1099 at the end of the year and the IRS wants their share of his $100 per storm. The only one making any money here is the guy who doesnt have to plow the driveways and banks to get the initial payment.


Sounds like a businessman to me. He's in it to make money, not run a non for profit company.


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## BPS#1 (Oct 16, 2011)

Chineau;1448147 said:


> More, start at 75 one hour min. and see the response.tymusic


Now we're getting warmer.

Still less than what I'd plow for.

My sub gets $80. His truck, his fuel, his insurance. 
My jobs.


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## BPS#1 (Oct 16, 2011)

Mrplow247;1448013 said:


> Yes i am a "sub" i guess but more of an employee, i get an hourly rate. In my opinion a "sub" has contracted work for a specified compensation. Employees get hourly rates to do as they are told.


Its very common with variable conditions work to be paid by the hour and still be a sub.

I have a whole route of clients that get charged by the hour. I'm not their employee.


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

All my operators own their own business,are paid by the hour,and 1099'd. The hourly rate is higher than avg for the area to compensate for any tax hit. Plus they show up to the job to warmed up, well maintained, clean piece of equipment. Once I find a responsible, qualified operator, I do my best to make the job as hassle free as possible. Turnover costs $$$


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

siteworkplus;1448385 said:


> All my operators own their own business,are paid by the hour,and 1099'd. The hourly rate is higher than avg for the area to compensate for any tax hit. Plus they show up to the job to warmed up, well maintained, clean piece of equipment. Once I find a responsible, qualified operator, I do my best to make the job as hassle free as possible. Turnover costs $$$


Where are you located and are you hiring??? LOL must be nice to show up and have your machine all warmed up and ready to roll


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## Eronningen (Dec 20, 2008)

grandview;1448063 said:


> Don't matter,any way you look at it. your a sub,your an employee when you sign all the paper work and get a w-2 that makes you an employee.Just go and pick up more work for yourself next year.
> 
> As for the truck,you need to work out the percent of your truck as to personal and business.


True in theory only. I'm sure by the sounds of it, if the state was to take a look at them two, the state would determine he is an employee.


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## Eronningen (Dec 20, 2008)

kashman;1448188 said:


> get a hand shovel k thats what that pay is worth


Exactly true in my parts too


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

tell him his truck $20 an hour.....your truck and fuel $75 hour....a normal winter on call part time operators see 15-20 per hr running the co equipment


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Eronningen;1448492 said:


> True in theory only. I'm sure by the sounds of it, if the state was to take a look at them two, the state would determine he is an employee.


How do you mean? He's using his stuff and to do a agreed route at a hourly rate.Don't see no employee to me.No different if I was to go plow for someone else after I finish my stuff,that doesn't make me an employee.


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## Earthscapes (Feb 2, 2001)

The way I see it is your getting screwed........ 
I pay my sub $75.00 an hr (his truck, gas, ins.) 
My drivers $18-27.00 an hr in my trucks based on experience. 
Shovel guys $15-20.

Everyone is guaranteed a min of 100 Hrs. for the winter. 
Sorry i'm not hiring lol


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for all of the insight guys, apparently im not looking hard enough around here to find the right people, 

if anyone in my area has any ideas on where to look for work ill be glad to sub summer and winter work.


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## Earthscapes (Feb 2, 2001)

I can always use extra help from April-June, we do a ton of shrub trimming, weeding & a few hundred yds of mulch.


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

Earthscapes;1448920 said:


> I can always use extra help from April-June, we do a ton of shrub trimming, weeding & a few hundred yds of mulch.


Please keep me in mind for anything that you may need, its tough to make quality connections anymore. Too many "companies" with horrible quality of service. I would be glad to take any amount of work you can supply.


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## jp3288 (Jan 6, 2012)

I might just be confused...but are you working a few hours for just over a hundred dollars...then paying out forty for gas. Then you have your truck, insurance, plow, repairs etc.? If this is right, I am pretty sure you'd be better off working fast food.


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## Mrplow247 (Dec 3, 2010)

you are not confused. 25-35 per hour.

4 hours is 100 bucks.
usually half tank of diesel (40-50 bucks)
dont wanna even think about repairs, brakes, etc caused from plowing
finding out that your plowing for peanuts......priceless


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## todddude (Oct 6, 2009)

NYS Labor say you are a sub-contractor if you have your own insurance & workmans comp (unless you are a sole proprietor w none of your own employees) and have other contracts or "jobs" you can show invoices for. You most likely would be required to show the guy subbing to you a certificate of insurance and you will get a 1099. Then you will pay taxes plus all your other costs.....you are definaitely getting screwed....but lesson learned. If you have your own accounts plus his you should be fine as a non-employee and be considered a sub legally. IRS is really cracking down on the "sub" issue and the guy paying you may be the one in the end who gets screwed, especially if he didn't get insurance forms from you.

As to rates, we pay plow drivers $25.00 per hour, 4-6 hours per day depending on storm. I typically try to estimate each truck or piece of equipment to gross over $175.00/hr. Some make much more with good drivers (most) but that is the minimum. I don't usually use subs, but in a pinch if we need help I have 2 guys with great trucks I will pay $85 - $90 per hr avg. Usually I just ask if they will do XYZ lots for $250.00 so they have an incentive to answer the phone when I call in an emergency. They may be out 2 1/2 - 3 hrs max, but it got me out of a bad morning, worth every penny!

Anyway....to sum up....don't sell your self short, get what your worth, even in your own contracts. I never get all of my plow bids back, but the ones I do get I make good money on, enjoy getting up to do the work, drive new equipment (less than 4 years old) and my employees always show up (& subs) because I pay well. It's always better to make good money on a few contracts than have alot of contracts that each lose a little money.

Sorry so wordy! Just always gets me going when people don't know what they are worth. Learn quick & move on!


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

That philosophy has always worked for me also

Now if we can get everyone on board we all can breathe easier and maybe put some away for that day when the body just says "enough"


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