# Hired as a Sub to plow with my ATV at a Local Mall



## svfdfireman (Nov 24, 2010)

Looking for advice about plowing with my ATV for a contractor at our local mall. What are some things I should be thinking about as far as Liability insurance, 1099 forms, hourly rate, etc. I answered his job posting and he and I have talked on the phone about various issues but I would like input from you guys that have been around the block a time or two. 

This is my first job plowing as a Sub-contractor.

A little more background: This is a very large mall complex. I will be one of two quads doing the "Light" work. He will pay $35.00 an hour. He carries liability but suggested I may want to get my own as well. He said his insurance will pay if I break Mall property but won't cover me if I hit a pedestrian or parked car. 

Any advice will be appreciated.

Thanks Guys,

svfdfireman


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## shovelracer (Sep 3, 2004)

Being a mall with public access, liability is huge. Likely his policy will defend him alone depending on what your agreement is or protect him while leaving you to the wolves. You would be left to carry your own general liability and vehicle liability. You'll need a lot of hours to cover that cost. Could be profitable, but when subbing you are not going to get rich. Just another job.


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## born2farm (Dec 24, 2007)

GET YOUR OWN INSURANCE! His insurance will only cover him. More than likely if something happens, he will walk away from the situation and leave you to sort it out. Like said above, it will really cut into your profits but if your in this as a professional it is just something you have to deal with. It the long run it i worth it.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

svfdfireman;1514356 said:


> Looking for advice about plowing with my ATV for a contractor at our local mall. What are some things I should be thinking about as far as Liability insurance, 1099 forms, hourly rate, etc. I answered his job posting and he and I have talked on the phone about various issues but I would like input from you guys that have been around the block a time or two.
> 
> This is my first job plowing as a Sub-contractor.
> 
> ...


 Liability is not too expensive, although I say that because I carry mine year round for my business anyway, and rates do vary from state to state. If he is not requiring you to carry liability, and you are comfortable with your operating skills, then you can forgo it. But, if you hit a car or worse, run into a human body on accident, you will surely be paying a full years liability premium in response ie repair bills/medical bills.

Also, you need to be careful with the whole "subcontractor" thing. In most cases that I know of, as a sub contractor you are required to carry liability, or you are basically an employee of the person hiring you. In MA you don't have to carry WC if you are the president of the business. Your $35 an hour after taxes, insurance expenses, and equipment up keep is going to look more like 15-18 an hour in your pocket.


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

I dont see how you guys figure the owner of the company could walk away if there was an accident. His name is on the contract not yours if anything hell be sued and if he doesnt require you to have insurance it would definately be on him as basically he would be hiring you as an employee and your tool is your fourwheeler my guess is if theres enough snow to use a quad people arent going to be standing in the middle of the sidewalk waiting to get hit. If you hit a car at night and no one saw it the owner of the car would blame the snow contractor and he would be at fault. If you hit a car in the parking lot and someone was driving it then you should have registration and ins. O. Your quad or it will be impounded and youll be in big trouble. I think the best route is get paid cash and dont hit anything. Go ahead and criticize away...


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

90plow;1514577 said:


> I dont see how you guys figure the owner of the company could walk away if there was an accident. His name is on the contract not yours if anything hell be sued and if he doesnt require you to have insurance it would definately be on him as basically he would be hiring you as an employee and your tool is your fourwheeler my guess is if theres enough snow to use a quad people arent going to be standing in the middle of the sidewalk waiting to get hit. If you hit a car at night and no one saw it the owner of the car would blame the snow contractor and he would be at fault. If you hit a car in the parking lot and someone was driving it then you should have registration and ins. O. Your quad or it will be impounded and youll be in big trouble. I think the best route is get paid cash and dont hit anything. Go ahead and criticize away...


His insurance covers property damage relevant to fulfilling the contract, and his personal liability, for running over a bus shelter full of school kids. Customers of the mall are not part of the contract, nor is ATV plow sub, so issues between them are handled as motor vehicle collisions (i.e., cops, flashing lights, step outside of the vehicle, etc.). In the event of an issue between ATV plow sub and a mall customer, the plow business owner MAY OR MAY NOT become involved, depending mostly on the mall customer. It is prudent for ATV plow sub to have his own liability insurance to protect himself from issues with mall customers.

Now there's two kinds of things that can happen to involve insurance and/or litigation; unknown damage that happens during the job and discovered later = contractor's insurance, or COPS ON SITE = operator's insurance.

Now whether or not plow business owner WANTS to become involved, his insurance will probably tell ATV plow sub to suck it, since they aren't involved. Insurance is in the business of NOT PAYING. You need to have them by the short hairs and FORCE them to pay, and that isn't going to happen without a specific contract to that effect.

ATV plow sub DEFINITELY needs his own insurance.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

90plow;1514577 said:


> I dont see how you guys figure the owner of the company could walk away if there was an accident. His name is on the contract not yours if anything hell be sued and if he doesnt require you to have insurance it would definately be on him as basically he would be hiring you as an employee and your tool is your fourwheeler my guess is if theres enough snow to use a quad people arent going to be standing in the middle of the sidewalk waiting to get hit. If you hit a car at night and no one saw it the owner of the car would blame the snow contractor and he would be at fault. If you hit a car in the parking lot and someone was driving it then you should have registration and ins. O. Your quad or it will be impounded and youll be in big trouble. I think the best route is get paid cash and dont hit anything. Go ahead and criticize away...


Everything about this statement makes me think you have never done commercial snow removal before. EVER. Not to mention you are lacking morals with the comment regarding "hitting a car at night when no one sees it, blame the contractor".. Wow, I hope you dont run your own shop lol....


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## svfdfireman (Nov 24, 2010)

Wow! Thanks guys for the good info. Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what liability might run me. Obviously I will shop around here in my home state (washington). Also, should I up my rate? Also, what about insurance for my quad? 

Thanks


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

Half of it was sarcasm to put into perspective all of the different opinions. I do run my own buisness with all the insurance i need. I dont know if i would get ot of bed for 35 bucks an hour to pay liability and $4 gallon gas. I think you should have the guy pay you as an employee and insure your quad on his fleet insurance. You could be a part time employee therefore saving him some of the full time benefits. I dont know how else you could make money at 35 an hour you might be better shoveling. How many hours per storm? Store the quad on site or transport? If you ha e to drive around in the snow how is that paid for? I still dont see how a gc would walk away from an employee having an accident. I would say the buck stops with him.


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

Ps i did say he should register and insure his quad...


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

LOL, I see. There are impressionable young minds around here, so you have to be careful doling out poor advice, even if it was in jest 

I do agree with you that he is better off shoveling money wise, the only reason why I didnt mention it before is because I HATE shoveling, and it would be much more fun on a quad. Other than that, yeah, big no go for me if I was a true sub at $35 an hour.....


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

svfdfireman;1514618 said:


> Wow! Thanks guys for the good info. Can anyone give me a rough estimate of what liability might run me. Obviously I will shop around here in my home state (washington). Also, should I up my rate? Also, what about insurance for my quad?
> 
> Thanks


Find out what your liability, and quad ins is first. Make sure it makes sense. Then go back to him. Personally, I think that kind of work is worth $45 an hour if you are a legitimate sub,


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

To put it in perspective around here trucks get 70-80 per hr. Shovelers 20-30 guys driving trucks 25-35. So i would agree with 45-50 especially if youll only see a few hours per storm. Sell it up as a savings if he pays you 45 your reliable you work hard and hell save alot of money not paying 3 guys for 8 hours what you can do in 2. Also note wear on your machine and insurance as other reasons to pay you more.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

90plow;1514577 said:


> I dont see how you guys figure the owner of the company could walk away if there was an accident. His name is on the contract not yours if anything hell be sued and if he doesnt require you to have insurance it would definately be on him as basically he would be hiring you as an employee and your tool is your fourwheeler my guess is if theres enough snow to use a quad people arent going to be standing in the middle of the sidewalk waiting to get hit. If you hit a car at night and no one saw it the owner of the car would blame the snow contractor and he would be at fault. If you hit a car in the parking lot and someone was driving it then you should have registration and ins. O. Your quad or it will be impounded and youll be in big trouble. I think the best route is get paid cash and dont hit anything. Go ahead and criticize away...


Once again another quality piece of advice from a snow and ice "professional".


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

Guess you didnt read the next post.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

90plow;1515023 said:


> Guess you didnt read the next post.


Sorry I missed it. As easily as I did others could as well. My apology.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

are you using a steel blade?...does the mall have the rubber traction strips on the sloped sidewlaks?...if so who will replace them when you tear them up?


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## badgerman (Nov 27, 2012)

90plow;1514632 said:


> To put it in perspective around here trucks get 70-80 per hr. Shovelers 20-30 guys driving trucks 25-35. So i would agree with 45-50 especially if youll only see a few hours per storm. Sell it up as a savings if he pays you 45 your reliable you work hard and hell save alot of money not paying 3 guys for 8 hours what you can do in 2. Also note wear on your machine and insurance as other reasons to pay you more.


Boy that would be nice 25-30 an hour to drive some one else's plow truck.. Here people get 10 to 13 bucks an hour....


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

badgerman;1525729 said:


> Boy that would be nice 25-30 an hour to drive some one else's plow truck.. Here people get 10 to 13 bucks an hour....


As a gentleman stated previously, your location has much to do with what you will get paid. Some people here on the board are just straight up full of S--T too. Many things need to be taken into perspective when asking for advice on ANY on line forum, not just here.

That being said, you get what you pay for, and I wouldnt put a guy in one of my trucks with my ass on the line that was so hard up he was willing to work for 13 an hour pre tax, on an on call basis unless I knew he was a good guy, and in that case, He'd be earning 18-25 an hour anyway.

Seriously, just for kicks, put an ad up on CL in Boston MA stating that you are a contractor paying 10-13 an hour to drive one of your trucks for snow and see how many REALLY NASTY hate mails you get... You cant get a guy to SHOVEL around here that is reliable for under $20 an hour...


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

My experience has been irregardless of pay either they are good or not. I've had decent guys at $ 15/hr. and fired guys that experience dictated 20+/hr they were horrible and didn't have a clue. I think by advertising the higher rate of pay it brings more of them out too. There is a saying slow to hire quick to fire, sucks but it is true. The other part is in this business it is tough to really see if someone knows when there isn't snow when your hiring, then when there is snow your stuck with them if they are bad. One contractor here actually hires & has a revolving list, if you don't answer, he moves to the next on the list.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

It's all a rat race......


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## badgerman (Nov 27, 2012)

ducaticorse;1525737 said:


> As a gentleman stated previously, your location has much to do with what you will get paid. Some people here on the board are just straight up full of S--T too. Many things need to be taken into perspective when asking for advice on ANY on line forum, not just here.
> 
> That being said, you get what you pay for, and I wouldnt put a guy in one of my trucks with my ass on the line that was so hard up he was willing to work for 13 an hour pre tax, on an on call basis unless I knew he was a good guy, and in that case, He'd be earning 18-25 an hour anyway.
> 
> Seriously, just for kicks, put an ad up on CL in Boston MA stating that you are a contractor paying 10-13 an hour to drive one of your trucks for snow and see how many REALLY NASTY hate mails you get... You cant get a guy to SHOVEL around here that is reliable for under $20 an hour...


LOL, Well im just simply stating that this is the going rate in this area. i use to pull a set of Gravel trains here and got 14 an hour and their is alot more to that then plowing snow. every area is different and obviously out east the pay scale must be a lot higher than here. This is what people pay here.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

badgerman;1525759 said:


> LOL, Well im just simply stating that this is the going rate in this area. i use to pull a set of Gravel trains here and got 14 an hour and their is alot more to that then plowing snow. every area is different and obviously out east the pay scale must be a lot higher than here. This is what people pay here.


Understood. That's why I prefaced my comment with what I did.

A two bedroom apt in the city is about 2 grand if that sheds any light on our cost of living in Boston Proper.... And storage for machines and trucks? LOL......


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

non issue for me. i cannot afford subs with their own letters


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