# Covid-19



## FourDiamond (Nov 23, 2011)

It looks Covid-19 will be with us for the upcoming snow season. What plans, if any, do you have to limit potential exposure to employees.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Same ones I have for the flu.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Same ones I have for the flu.


Double masks and gloves?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

prezek said:


> Double masks and gloves?


Triple


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Put them on a sidewalk crew so they have a reason to wear a mask


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## Rosie's Rider (Jan 28, 2019)

This video explains everything you need to know about where "corona" virus originated.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

sanitize myself with JD


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

leolkfrm said:


> sanitize myself with JD


Internally...correct?


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

What are you guys planning to do if you’ve got a helper riding in a truck with you? Masks in an enclosed truck will not do much good, it seems, with airborne virus. Anybody going to one person per team/truck? Or having 2 vehicles follow on same route? It‘s a waste of $ I know but the disease has killed 280,000 people. 

** PLEASE only make serious suggestions / replies. I’ve got a great sense of humor but if you think Covid is a joke then please keep these particular jokes to yourself. Thanks in advance.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

If more than one guy in a truck.
The passenger must stick their head out of the window.

Ps your doing it wrong if protection is costing you $ your customers should be shouldering your costs.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

One good thing about the masks is it keeps face warm


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Hydromaster said:


> If more than one guy in a truck.
> The passenger must stick their head out of the window.
> 
> Ps your doing it wrong if protection is costing you $ your customers should be shouldering your costs.


He said no jokes!

Over a million cases, one of them was Chuck Norris, and now the virus is in quarantine for 14 days.

Wearing masks when two or more in a truck, not wearing masks outside, I've been tested twice, still haven't gotten it, and been in contact with hundreds of covid positive PTs.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

If sticking your head out of the window is good enough for my dog it’s good enough for the employees too


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)




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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Phile meme


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Here is a little info for all in NY. I know a company who just went into lockdown today because one employee tested positive-a symptomatic-but due to working together outside without masks they all have to enter two week lockdown. No they cannot test out of it. Cant take 1, 2, 10 tests and keep working if any one of them are negative. 
Two weeks, no work, can’t leave your property or $1,500 per person per day. Welcome to Cuomos world.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Kvston said:


> Here is a little info for all in NY. I know a company who just went into lockdown today because one employee tested positive-a symptomatic-but due to working together outside without masks they all have to enter two week lockdown. No they cannot test out of it. Cant take 1, 2, 10 tests and keep working if any one of them are negative.
> Two weeks, no work, can't leave your property or $1,500 per person per day. Welcome to Cuomos world.


whaaaaat??


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

jato said:


> What are you guys planning to do if you've got a helper riding in a truck with you? Masks in an enclosed truck will not do much good, it seems, with airborne virus. Anybody going to one person per team/truck? Or having 2 vehicles follow on same route? It's a waste of $ I know but the disease has killed 280,000 people.
> 
> ** PLEASE only make serious suggestions / replies. I've got a great sense of humor but if you think Covid is a joke then please keep these particular jokes to yourself. Thanks in advance.


What type of business are you in the rest of the year? What have you been doing?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Kvston said:


> Here is a little info for all in NY. I know a company who just went into lockdown today because one employee tested positive-a symptomatic-but due to working together outside without masks they all have to enter two week lockdown. No they cannot test out of it. Cant take 1, 2, 10 tests and keep working if any one of them are negative.
> Two weeks, no work, can't leave your property or $1,500 per person per day. Welcome to Cuomos world.


What if they wore masks?


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

BossPlow2010 said:


> What if they wore masks?


Only out for 13 days.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

When we started doing spring clean ups. We drove separately, which turned into him driving his own vehicle, which turned into him showing up late everyday, some days not at all. Which ended up saving me a butt load of money, and realizing that I don't really need him. Ideally it would be me not needing to go out every day. As we have now established one guy can do it.
BUT ( big but) it depends on the guy. He will still tell you it's too much for one guy.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> What if they wore masks?


possible they could have avoided some people getting out into lockdown but still-clients in NJ could test out. CDC says 1 week lockdown. Once again NY leads the charge! #cuomosworld


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

prezek said:


> Only out for 13 days.


Not surprising, we've had 2 or 3 test positive at the FD.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Not surprising, we've had 2 or 3 test positive at the FD.


Did all survive?


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Only in reality. On paper they all died. FD needs the Covid funds...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

prezek said:


> Did all survive?


Yes.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Kvston said:


> Only in reality. On paper they all died. FD needs the Covid funds...


FD doesn't get the covid funds, hospitals do though


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

prezek said:


> What type of business are you in the rest of the year? What have you been doing?


[Rest of the year its just me. I do lawns and cleanups by myself.]

Right now yeah I'm thinking masks, and then crack open the windows is the best I can do. (?) Can't ask them to drive their own vehicles due to insurance, and I have just 1 truck now, maybe about to grab a 2nd one. At least masks make faces warmer I guess.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

plow4beer said:


> [insert meme here]


Respectfully dude, let's not do this. It's .00085 of the US population and numbers don't look to be improving. If you feel comfortable getting cute about that death rate, you live quite a privileged life.

Back to workplace safety. I appreciate the questions and comments so far. I've been reading the site for a long time and learning from all your experience and it has always helped me. I'll keep watching this thread and listening, and if I get any creative solution figured out I'll post it. THanks again


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Im absolutely comfortable with a .00085 mortality rate. Id be cool with about 75% of the people I see out in public disappearing if it were possible.

Had some white trash run a redlight and speed past me flipping me off because I was about to pull out of a parking lot before he blatantly ran the light. Covid can have him.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

need to start with disinfecting the vehicle's, before and after use, a spray such as end-bac works well, wont hurt the interior like alcohol.....hand sanitizer in all vehicles, to be used!!!....lots of common sense


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jato said:


> Respectfully dude, let's not do this. It's .00085 of the US population and numbers don't look to be improving. If you feel comfortable getting cute about that death rate, you live quite a privileged life.
> 
> Back to workplace safety. I appreciate the questions and comments so far. I've been reading the site for a long time and learning from all your experience and it has always helped me. I'll keep watching this thread and listening, and if I get any creative solution figured out I'll post it. THanks again


So less than the seasonal flu?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Kvston said:


> Here is a little info for all in NY. I know a company who just went into lockdown today because one employee tested positive-a symptomatic-but due to working together outside without masks they all have to enter two week lockdown. No they cannot test out of it. Cant take 1, 2, 10 tests and keep working if any one of them are negative.
> Two weeks, no work, can't leave your property or $1,500 per person per day. Welcome to Cuomos world.


I'd kindly tell them to shove it.

Working outside and asymptomatic there is zero reason to quarantine .


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

jato said:


> [Rest of the year its just me. I do lawns and cleanups by myself.]
> 
> Right now yeah I'm thinking masks, and then crack open the windows is the best I can do. (?) Can't ask them to drive their own vehicles due to insurance, and I have just 1 truck now, maybe about to grab a 2nd one. At least masks make faces warmer I guess.


Yeah. Like mentioned, sanitizer and common sense. I think most of us that have been working along side others since this started just have accepted you need to allow a certain number of people into your "bubble". I work closely with 5 other guys. Couldn't run my business any differently. In the beginning when we didn't know how bad this was going to be, we tried to not swap hand tools (trimmers, blowers, etc), extra water to wash up on each truck, but that lasted about 2 days...then back to normal...definitely wouldn't have someone drive their own vehicle in a snow storm. Good luck.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'd kindly tell them to shove it.
> 
> Working outside and asymptomatic there is zero reason to quarantine .


I'd be that guy on the news ripping a stack of fines up in front of the camera.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Kvston said:


> possible they could have avoided some people getting out into lockdown but still-clients in NJ could test out. CDC says 1 week lockdown. Once again NY leads the charge! #cuomosworld


New York City craziness.

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/coron...xfL33W0Axo_kSlZ9C4fmBgpzydS9nkTSF_sfhCH3fa7PQ


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Working outside and asymptomatic there is zero reason to quarantine .


It travels further outside, where have you been...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Well I can say I see the stupidity of their restrictions and the absolute ineffectiveness of their protocols.

I can also say that none of my guys can afford $1500/day. Frankly I can’t either. It’s different when it’s you. I’ve stood on my soap box a few times the last months but having it hit so close to home...

I plan to help where I can and endure.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

jato said:


> Respectfully dude, let's not do this. It's .00085 of the US population and numbers don't look to be improving. If you feel comfortable getting cute about that death rate, you live quite a privileged life.
> 
> Back to workplace safety. I appreciate the questions and comments so far. I've been reading the site for a long time and learning from all your experience and it has always helped me. I'll keep watching this thread and listening, and if I get any creative solution figured out I'll post it. THanks again


If living in the USA, thinking for myself, and not believing a bunch of BS lies about a virus (That's no worse than the flu) is living a privileged life....then so be it I guess.....stay gullible squirt


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Kvston said:


> Well I can say I see the stupidity of their restrictions and the absolute ineffectiveness of their protocols.
> 
> I can also say that none of my guys can afford $1500/day. Frankly I can't either. It's different when it's you. I've stood on my soap box a few times the last months but having it hit so close to home...
> 
> I plan to help where I can and endure.


.So they wont let you work but somehow think you can come up with 1500. Makes sense.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> If living in the USA, thinking for myself, and not believing a bunch of BS lies about a virus (That's no worse than the flu) is living a privileged life....then so be it I guess.....


What reliable source do you point to that documented over 200,000 people got the flu yesterday, 100,000 of them required hospitalization and over 2,000 died? What does thinking for yourself mean… ignore the facts?


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Luther said:


> What reliable source do you point to that documented over 200,000 people got the flu yesterday, 100,000 of them required hospitalization and over 2,000 died? What does thinking for yourself mean… ignore the facts?


hospitalization over the flu.....ya it happens. But all the fear that has been spread is worse. I believe that a large portion of that is contributed to people over reacting out of fear. More People testing positive because of testing in and of itself, many more employers forcing testing now.... if we gave the flu this much attention/testing last yr, it wouldnt be much different.....people being stressed out makes this whole thing worse.

wait, I thought you didn't care what I thought?..


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> What reliable source do you point to that documented over 200,000 people got the flu yesterday, 100,000 of them required hospitalization and over 2,000 died? What does thinking for yourself mean… ignore the facts?


Can you tell me when the last time 200,000 people were tested for the flu in 1 day? 1 week?


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Did you self test today ?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SHAWZER said:


> Did you self test today ?


Came down with a lovely cold last week. The warden asked if I could taste anything...so she's been getting mildly annoyed when I tell her my coffee tastes like Mt Dew, venison tastes like chicken, etc.

This morning my coffee tasted a bit weak and I asked her what she thought...she said funny. Didn't realize I was serious (for once).

No sense of humor whatsoever.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

So ...... is that a yes or no ?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SHAWZER said:


> So ...... is that a yes or no ?


Or


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Why bother getting tested? Doesn’t change if you stay home under quarantine or not.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Kvston said:


> Why bother getting tested? Doesn't change if you stay home under quarantine or not.


I'm getting covid tested today
It's required to fly


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Kvston said:


> Why bother getting tested? Doesn't change if you stay home under quarantine or not.


Bingo... around here it takes 10-14 days to get your results back... tests are worthless right now.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

I look forward to the whiskey sniff - taste test ......


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Philbilly2 said:


> Bingo... around here it takes 10-14 days to get your results back... tests are worthless right now.


Rapid here...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Rapid here...


Yes... those are not covered by insurance for us. They are "reserved for first responders and healthcare workers" is what we are being told.

But they have been utilized a few times here already. Just had to purchase.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I'm getting covid tested today
> It's required to fly


Drive...


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Can you tell me when the last time 200,000 people were tested for the flu in 1 day? 1 week?


Don't know cause it never happened before...but this out of control covid infection rate is happening and repeating every day now.

We have to give your followers a pass, as they only like and repeat what you have to say...they can't think on their own and continue to get distracted by conspiracy theories....but there is no comparison between the flu and covid. Not sure why you keep repeating that covid is no more than the seasonal flu. Best guess is 24,000-62,000 people died from the flu in the USA last year. So far 282,000 have died from covid in the USA. And it's still not one year old yet. It's getting worse real quick.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Drive...


To St. Thomas?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> To St. Thomas?


Fantasy Island II?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> Don't know cause it never happened before...but this out of control covid infection rate is happening and repeating every day now.
> 
> We have to give your followers a pass, as they only like and repeat what you have to say...they can't think on their own and continue to get distracted by conspiracy theories....but there is no comparison between the flu and covid. Not sure why you keep repeating that covid is no more than the seasonal flu. Best guess is 24,000-62,000 people died from the flu in the USA last year. So far 282,000 have died from covid in the USA. And it's still not one year old yet. It's getting worse real quick.


https://justthenews.com/politics-po...eport-critical-cycle-threshold-covid-19-tests


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> https://justthenews.com/politics-po...eport-critical-cycle-threshold-covid-19-tests


I think that's a good metric to use. A little shocking that Florida is leading the way on this....considering it's Florida, and they happen to have the lamest governor ever.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

let's get back to the intent of the discussion - What plans, if any, do you have to limit potential exposure to employees.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

What about ( the employee) taking personal responsibility for their actions.

What is there to do?
Require a mask if within 6ft of another person.
What if they refuse?
Are you going to fire them?

Take their temp every hr?

A weekly covid test?

plastic dividers in the truck
To keep the covid in place?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Hydromaster said:


> plastic dividers in the truck
> To keep the covid in place?


This is a real thing...

Village near me installed plexiglass dividers in the cabs of their kenworths...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

In the private sector you can’t do much. Refusal to wear a mask isn’t grounds for firing that I’m aware of. For that matter there isn’t much in NY you can fire people for now anyway.

Going forward masks are mandatory as is reporting if anyone in your home is showing symptoms.

we just got grounded for two weeks. Cant test out. Cant leave the property or the police get involved...guess I’ll have all the maintenance done for once...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Private sector can fire a guy becuse...
Well for almost any reason I choose.

So,, today is blue mask day and you have a red bandanna, yer fired.

If it’s not race, sex, religious or age. Or a union.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> What about ( the employee) taking personal responsibility for their actions.
> 
> What is there to do?
> Require a mask if within 6ft of another person.
> ...


Exactly.

We've had 1 confirmed infection between the 2 companies. Symptoms developed after he was home from work, no one else had any symptoms so no one else was tested.

A couple others thought they had been exposed but tested negative...their choice to get tested. They never had any symptoms either.

So all the exposures occurred outside of work like Buff said.

I provide the tools, it's up to them to use them depending on their level of fear


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Kvston said:


> In the private sector you can't do much. Refusal to wear a mask isn't grounds for firing that I'm aware of. For that matter there isn't much in NY you can fire people for now anyway.
> 
> Going forward masks are mandatory as is reporting if anyone in your home is showing symptoms.
> 
> we just got grounded for two weeks. Cant test out. Cant leave the property or the police get involved...guess I'll have all the maintenance done for once...


What if it snows?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> We've had 1 confirmed infection between the 2 companies.


You guys need to get out more...

This popped up on my phone the other day if you are worried about it inside your vehicle...

https://phys.org/news/2020-12-car-pandemic-windows.html


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Hydromaster said:


> What about ( the employee) taking personal responsibility for their actions.
> 
> What is there to do?
> Require a mask if within 6ft of another person.
> ...


Ok, this is a sugar beet piler operators cab.








The entire cab is as wide as the control panel and is run by 2 guys. Some are moderately bigger. As designs change over time and most have been retrofitted many times over 40+ years. 
Anyway, I worked harvest for 26 years over 20 of them as an operator.
My guy that works for me still does harvest. When he came back this year, I asked him what they had done for covid policy.
In my 20 years I was the only operator who didn't smoke and wouldn't allow smoking in my cab, just an aside.
So guess what they did?
They hung a huge piece of plexiglass from the ceiling on chains,right down the middle of the console . 
If a guy is working alone he needs to do things on both sides of the glass.
Read that again.
Did I mention there is only one door? 
So what did he do?
Ripped it out of the ceiling and tossed it like a huge Frisbee ( the cab is 12' off the ground) it shattered into a bizzillion pieces on the concrete.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jonniesmooth said:


> Ok, this is a sugar beet piler operators cab.
> View attachment 209448
> 
> The entire cab is as wide as the control panel and is run by 2 guys. Some are moderately bigger. As designs change over time and most have been retrofitted many times over 40+ years.
> ...


Back when the Gretch said gulfing was OK and then finally allowed carts, most courses tried the plexiglass thing. Gulfers were not impressed...you can guess what happened to them.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Imagine sharing a boom lift basket with another fella all day...

just saying... 

we have been getting by for quite a few months now...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Hydromaster said:


> Private sector can fire a guy becuse...
> Well for almost any reason I choose.
> 
> So,, today is blue mask day and you have a red bandanna, yer fired.
> ...


you can fire them but you end up paying for them in NY through unemployment...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if it snows?


I was told tough luck by the health department. I have beaten the bushes and pulled favors to get people to help me out for the two weeks. Just had the sheriff stop by to make sure I was home...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Kvston said:


> Just had the sheriff stop by to make sure I was home...


please tell me you are joking...


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Le's Mark angry


Kvston said:


> you can fire them but you end up paying for them in NY through unemployment...


Same most everywhere else. That's why it's critical to make sure you do several things right when terminating someone. You never fire someone in anger or rage, or on a Thursday or Friday, always leave them with their dignity intact, and always fire them for gross misconduct...nothing else.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> please tell me you are joking...


He's from The People's Republic of New Yorkistan...doubt it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Kvston said:


> I was told tough luck by the health department. I have beaten the bushes and pulled favors to get people to help me out for the two weeks. Just had the sheriff stop by to make sure I was home...


Did you run out to him, unmasked and shake his hand?

Ask him in for a beer?

Hack all over him?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Luther said:


> Le's Mark angry
> 
> Same most everywhere else. That's why it's critical to make sure you do several things right when terminating someone. You never fire someone in anger or rage, or on a Thursday or Friday, always leave them with their dignity intact, and always fire them for gross misconduct...nothing else.


You don't cut back their hours till they quit?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> We've had 1 confirmed infection between the 2 companies.


Did you wet your plants after finding out?...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

So to answer several at once:

I live in the Adirondacks-not anywhere near Cuomo crap land but yeah the sheriff did come by. I got the large hand of the law telling me to stop 

Gross misconduct works IF you have a provable offense. I.E. you need photos, affidavit from other employees etc. most of the time they have you talk to an advocate then maybe a judge. Stupid.

Cutting hours can work sometimes. One business in town cut a guy back to one hour a week for four months...didn’t work. Until he moved out of state. Some people just aren’t worth the space they take up.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Did you wet your plants after finding out?...


No...funny thing is he's living with his parents so wears a mask more than anyone else.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I think I'd have someone move my vehicles and then not answer the door. Keep them guessing if I was there.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Philbilly2 said:


> please tell me you are joking...


Man,that's really sad. The Sheriff's are the ones who shouldn't be following these unconstitutional orders.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Guy in the cop car wasn’t uniformed and looked old enough to retire but I’m so fed up I didn’t bother with asking for ID.

Yeah it’s not an ethical or perhaps even unconstitutional order BUT how much will it cost to fight? What do I risk for this?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Kvston said:


> you can fire them but you end up paying for them in NY through unemployment...


Pro tip;
They must have earned at least a minimum amount in wages before they were let go..

Collecting Unemployment After Being Fired.
If you were fired because you lacked the skills to perform the job or simply weren't a good fit, you won't necessarily be barred from receiving benefits. However, if you were fired for misconduct relating to your job, you will be disqualified from receiving benefits.

So they couldn't shovel correctly or in my view perform their duties correctly, I can fire them because that's for a cause and then they cannot collect their unemployment.

But in the back of my head that I'm not telling anybody else because I think they're a:terribletowel:


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Kvston said:


> Guy in the cop car wasn't uniformed and looked old enough to retire but I'm so fed up I didn't bother with asking for ID.
> 
> Yeah it's not an ethical or perhaps even unconstitutional order BUT how much will it cost to fight? What do I risk for this?


Most agencies put senior officers on warrant service. This would be right up their alley. They are detective grade, so wear street clothes. Unmarked cars. 9 to 5 hours, mostly, although they like to work holidays on patrol for the OT.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

jonniesmooth said:


> Man,that's really sad. The Sheriff's are the ones who shouldn't be following these unconstitutional orders.


If there's a judge telling them to do it ..
they're going to do it, 
Seeing as how the sheriffs number one job is servy the magistrate


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Hydromaster said:


> If there's a judge telling them to do it ..
> they're going to do it,
> Seeing as how the sheriffs number one job is servy the magistrate


wonder why non of the bars or restaurants are closed around here...

governor order told them to close back on November 4th.

you can only kick someone in the shins so many times before they will fight back


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Kvston said:


> Gross misconduct works IF you have a provable offense. I.E. you need photos, affidavit from other employees etc. most of the time they have you talk to an advocate then maybe a judge. Stupid.


Huh!?!? What are you talking about? This isn't a court case, and you need nothing of the sort to terminate someone. That is unless they have a contract or union. Do you have an employee manual? Maybe you've never properly terminated people before?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Luther said:


> Huh!?!? What are you talking about? This isn't a court case, and you need nothing of the sort to terminate someone. Do you have an employee manual? Maybe you've never properly terminated people before?


I'm sure he's referring to the proof needed to successfully dispute the employee's claim for unemployment benefits, not to simply terminate someone.

Edit: at least I assume so. I could have sworn he mentioned somewhere in this thread about paying for UI but I can't seem to find it now.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> I'm sure he's referring to the proof needed to successfully dispute the employee's claim for unemployment benefits, not to simply terminate someone.
> 
> Edit: at least I assume so. I could have sworn he mentioned somewhere in this thread about paying for UI but I can't seem to find it now.


I'm assuming this is what he thinks he needs. All you really need to uphold this (if they want to fight it and collect) is a well written employee manual.

Ideally you leave them with their dignity so they don't have a beef with you, and they immediately start looking for a new job.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Luther said:


> I'm assuming this is what he thinks he needs. All you really need to uphold this (if they want to fight it and collect) is a well written employee manual.
> 
> Ideally you leave them with their dignity so they don't have a beef with you, and they immediately start looking for a new job.


Maybe MI is more business friendly (ha!) than here but to terminate someone and expect the arbiter to side with you, you'll need a lot more documentation than a well written manual.

Totally agree that letting them leave on good terms is the best option though.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> Maybe MI is more business friendly (ha!) than here but to terminate someone and expect the arbiter to side with you, you'll need a lot more documentation than a well written manual.


Agreed, he's getting unemployment... That's why you're better off if he quits...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Agreed, he's getting unemployment... That's why you're better off if he quits...


We don't terminate many people but we had a service tech who just stopped showing up one day. Never any call, nothing. He sucked anyway so no big loss.

Next thing we got was the notification that he was filing for UI benefits which we disputed. At the hearing, he claimed we promoted a "hostile work environment" so he couldn't show up anymore. He won the case.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Had a guy walk off the job after 6 weeks. Claimed he wasn't performing the work he was hired to perform. Sent in proof that 4 out of the 6 weeks he had been (and we never said he would be an applicator 100% of the time) and we still lost. 

There is zero guarantee that the employer will not have to pay out.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> Maybe MI is more business friendly (ha!) than here but to terminate someone and expect the arbiter to side with you, you'll need a lot more documentation than a well written manual.
> 
> Totally agree that letting them leave on good terms is the best option though.


Maybe it is more biz friendly here? Don't know. All I know is out of all the people I've fired over the years for gross misconduct...none of them were successful in collecting.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Philbilly2 said:


> wonder why non of the bars or restaurants are closed around here...
> 
> governor order told them to close back on November 4th.
> 
> you can only kick someone in the shins so many times before they will fight back


I agree.

The state patrol are the governors boys the sheriff works for the magistrate .
(You vote for your sheriff just like you vote for a judge)
I seem to remember a thing about using your own discretion ...

A few businesses in town who got ticketed ( city ordnance) for not having any mask requirements , not forcing the mask requirements and they were kind of laughing at it all as the law has no teeth.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Luther said:


> Maybe it is more biz friendly here? Don't know. All I know is out of all the people I've fired over the years for gross misconduct...none of them were successful in collecting.


What's an example of "gross misconduct" that you've had? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> We don't terminate many people but we had a service tech who just stopped showing up one day. Never any call, nothing. He sucked anyway so no big loss.
> 
> Next thing we got was the notification that he was filing for UI benefits which we disputed. At the hearing, he claimed we promoted a "hostile work environment" so he couldn't show up anymore. He won the case.


You don't have an employee manual? Ours states if you fail to show up for work 2 days in a row without calling in, or without it being authorized you will be terminated for gross misconduct. Simple, Done. The key is all in how you word the manual. I'll mention it again, never fire anyone for anything other than gross misconduct.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Luther said:


> You don't have an employee manual? Ours states if you fail to show up for work 2 days in a row without calling in, or without it being authorized you will be terminated for gross misconduct. Simple, Done. The key is all in how you word the manual. I'll mention it again, never fire anyone for anything other than gross misconduct.


We do have an employee manual. I don't know off the top of my head what it states for attendance since I don't think I've read it since being hired, but I'm sure never showing up to work again without a call is a violation of it. I wasn't at the hearing but my wife didn't mention it coming up at all. It did not matter. The fact that he didn't even bother to tell us he was never returning didn't matter.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Luther said:


> Maybe it is more biz friendly here? Don't know. All I know is out of all the people I've fired over the years for gross misconduct...none of them were successful in collecting.


Does Doing sprinkly winterizations on the side while working for you and collecting the cash count as gross misconduct?...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Frivolous law suit .

Misss 2 days...
Our policy is if you fail to call in for your shift.
you’re fired on the spot .
(Everyone said I was being a hard ass for enforcing that policy.)
If you told me you were partying or you didn’t feel like coming into work, you would’ve been good, you just had to call inn ,even if it was a minute before your shift.

it’s gross misconduct not to show up for work and not to notify your employer


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

We had someone quit (via text message) threaten to call OSHA for no lunch breaks, and working 12 hour days (not all the time)
OSHA hasn’t shown up yet, maybe they’re bizzie?

i know it’s not the first time a disgruntled employee or former employee has filed a complaint about the company they work for.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Lunch break???

Yer just sitting in the machine,
Wat? Yea I’ve watch you eat and drive before..


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> What's an example of "gross misconduct" that you've had? Not being snarky, just genuinely curious.


First off, make sure your manual states in several areas that employment at your place is strictly on an "at will" basis. A couple examples would be theft, drinking alcohol, doing drugs, bad attitude, horseplay or fighting, destroying company equipment, loosing equipment, things like that.

You don't fire someone for theft, as you have to prove that. You fire them for unauthorized removal of company property...which is considered gross misconduct.

You can't measure "attitude', but you can measure behavior and conduct. Poor and disruptive conduct is considered gross misconduct.

Horseplay and or fighting is gross job misconduct.

Willful destruction of company equipment is considered gross misconduct.

Operating company equipment while impaired is a huge safety violation, and also gross misconduct. I'm sure you're seeing the pattern.

The key is in how it's worded.

Now if you don't make them sign it and agree to the rules, you're taking a big chance of not being able to enforce any of it.



cwren2472 said:


> We do have an employee manual. I don't know off the top of my head what it states for attendance since I don't think I've read it since being hired, but I'm sure never showing up to work again without a call is a violation of it. I wasn't at the hearing but my wife didn't mention it coming up at all. It did not matter.


If you didn't clearly address tardy and attendance rules, you won't have much of a leg to stand on defending the termination.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Hydromaster said:


> Lunch break???
> 
> Yer just sitting in the machine,
> Wat? Yea I've watch you eat and drive before..


Do you think they ever go on their phones during work?
Amazing, that they can do that, but can't eat in between properties.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Does Doing sprinkly winterizations on the side while working for you and collecting the cash count as gross misconduct?...


Yes you can...unless this is not addressed in your manual. I actually fired one of the best irrigation techs I ever trained specifically for this.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Do you think they ever go on their phones during work?
> Amazing, that they can do that, but can't eat in between properties.


Well, duh. How do you expect them to text_ and_ hold a sandwich at the same time?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Agreed, he's getting unemployment... That's why you're better off if he quits...


If the are a cancer it's best to get rid of them without the linger. It is better if they quit, but you need to assume he knows what he's doing so he'll try to get fired. Just like you have to assume you're outgunned if you're sitting alone in a bar and there are three other people also in the bar.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

So here is a good one for ya:
1. Guy briefly passes the Covid positive in a hallway. Few minutes later they have a socially distant conversation for 5-8 minutes with no masks. County he lives in say NO to him plowing essential businesses solo.
2. Guy works with the Covid positive in a hole literally shoulder to shoulder for 4 hours. Lives in another county. That county is asked about plowing. Sure they say, just don’t go in for coffee and be responsible.

This is a real situation. Two of my guys. Really!

Cuomo has got to go!


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So less than the seasonal flu?


If it weren't far more dangerous than the flu, you wouldn't be typing things like that. There's a good chance your employees might be able to sue you if you don't play it safe. And public comments on a blog, mocking the dangers of the disease, are the kind of thing personal injury lawyers salivate over.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

plow4beer said:


> If living in the USA, thinking for myself, and not believing a bunch of BS lies about a virus (That's no worse than the flu) is living a privileged life....then so be it I guess.....stay gullible squirt


This guy Darwin wrote a great big book about what happens when people like you "think" for themselves.

Covid is more than 5x deadlier than the flu (109 deaths per 100,000 population in Michigan so far)... and that's in the warm months, not flu season.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Can you tell me when the last time 200,000 people were tested for the flu in 1 day? 1 week?


Imagine if more people were tested for the flu, like you said. That wouldn't change the number who died from flu each year. So the increased positive tests would DECREASE the death rate (as a percentage of those who test positive) assiciated with flu.

So the thing you're saying is actually proof of the opposite of what you seem to want it to mean. Covid is far, far deadlier than the flu.

From the start, about 1 in every 40 people who tests positive for covid dies from it.

It seems like you're not just trolling, you're actually thinking about this stuff and working it out for yourself, and that's great. Keep searching and you'll find real answers. For good information, just google Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, and any of the medical schools of big universities you've heard of.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

jato said:


> This guy Darwin wrote a great big book about what happens when people like you "think" for themselves.
> 
> Covid is more than 5x deadlier than the flu (109 deaths per 100,000 population in Michigan so far)... and that's in the warm months, not flu season.


i would actually compare it more to a cold...but maybe for some its more like a flu...either way, you can post whatever numbers you like. The Numbers are skewed. You can continue to believe everything the media blows up your skirt...I'll continue to question it, and believe that this has been an overreaction, & that bigger problems have been created (Along with rights infringed upon), from the reaction, than the Covid Itself.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Luther said:


> Don't know cause it never happened before...but this out of control covid infection rate is happening and repeating every day now.
> 
> We have to give your followers a pass, as they only like and repeat what you have to say...they can't think on their own and continue to get distracted by conspiracy theories....but there is no comparison between the flu and covid. Not sure why you keep repeating that covid is no more than the seasonal flu. Best guess is 24,000-62,000 people died from the flu in the USA last year. So far 282,000 have died from covid in the USA. And it's still not one year old yet. It's getting worse real quick.


YES. Right on.
And flu death numbers are over-estimated every year, to adjust for people who may have died as a result of the flu, but who never got tested for it along the way. 
That over-estimate has NOT been made yet for covid, so currently covid is under-counted. Some states are even hiding covid numbers (like Florida, etc) by refusing to report deaths from pneumonia or other comorbidities of Covid.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Kvston said:


> In the private sector you can't do much. Refusal to wear a mask isn't grounds for firing that I'm aware of. For that matter there isn't much in NY you can fire people for now anyway.
> 
> Going forward masks are mandatory as is reporting if anyone in your home is showing symptoms.
> 
> we just got grounded for two weeks. Cant test out. Cant leave the property or the police get involved...guess I'll have all the maintenance done for once...


Hydromaster is correct. It is insanely easy to fire people. Post a formal mask policy. Make sure it's not unconstitutional first. Employee violates it, you can fire them. Of course, anyone can sue anyone else for anything, so if you're paranoid just check with a lawyer before adopting that policy.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

jonniesmooth said:


> Man,that's really sad. The Sheriff's are the ones who shouldn't be following these unconstitutional orders.


A constitutional law scholar and a plowman. What are the odds?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

plow4beer said:


> i would actually compare it more to a cold.


I'm sure the 290,000 dead Americans will be very relieved to hear it was basically a cold


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want. 

Think of it like this, we are peons to people in power. Our constitutional rights were handed to us by the people in power at the time of the signing of the constitution. Was their intent wholly magnanimous for laying out all of these freedoms? Hell no. 

On the other side of the coin is the freedoms that are being temporarily (I hope) stripped from us in the name of safety. Ok I get it and you don't have to sell me that wearing a mask and staying further away from other disease carrying vectors is good for me, Im in. Im also not a damn sheep that you can lead to slaughter. The timing, outrage and uproar from the media from the beginning of Covid is very suspicious to me. I don't think it was manmade but I do think it was blown out of proportion for personal gains of people in power. It all falls back to intent. And what was the medias intent in straight up blasting Trump over every single decision regarding corona? Some would say its the medias job to get attention and sell headlines. Some will say certain media outlets are political machines printing discord and strife. I can see both sides of it and I don't fall too deeply into either category but the entire thing seems suspicious, again. 

It all boils down to me to what I feel is fair. Ill wear a mask, social distance and order takeout food because I feel it helps in a multitude of ways. I won't sit and watch people in power enforce draconian laws on us to the point that our society crumbles and people start suffering. Ill just ignore those BS laws and go about my life doing what I feel is right not based off of what is being told to me but based off of my analysis of what I think is right, fair and correct. All of you need to create your own opinions and not be influenced by everyone. You can all also stop trying to push your opinions on others and instead suggest they think for themselves.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

cwren2472 said:


> I'm sure the 290,000 dead Americans will be very relieved to hear it was basically a cold


don't be such a drama queen


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

plow4beer said:


> don't be such a drama queen


Hard for people to die of the flu when nobody is getting it,only covid.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

jonniesmooth said:


> Hard for people to die of the flu when nobody is getting it,only covid.
> View attachment 209652


Covid is much more lucrative than the flu right now


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Based on NCHS mortality surveillance data available on December 10, 2020, 14.3% of the deaths occurring during the week ending December 5, 2020 (week 49), were due to pneumonia, influenza, and COVID-19 (PIC). This percentage is above the epidemic threshold of 6.5% for week 49. Among the 3,052 PIC deaths reported for week 49, 2,113 had COVID-19 listed as an underlying or contributing cause of death on the death certificate and five listed influenza, indicating that the current increase in PIC mortality is due primarily to COVID-19 and not influenza.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Time line check;

A four-year-old Italian boy contracted Covid-19 as far back as November last year, Italian scientists believe, in a discovery that could dramatically rewrite the timeline of the spread of the illness.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/italian-boy-found-coronavirus-more-144934221.htmlPhylogenetic studies highlighted an early circulation of SARS-CoV-2 in Italy and suggest multiple introductions of the virus from China and Germany, followed by an autochthonous transmission."

Last month, a study suggested the virus may have entered Italy as early as September last year, while a third study found traces of the virus in untreated sewage water in Milan and Turin in December.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> let's get back to the intent of the discussion - What plans, if any, do you have to limit potential exposure to employees.


Dont hire any...?


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## CCSnow (Jan 25, 2016)

The whole idea behind the quarantine and wearing of masks isn't just to prevent the more at risk from getting it. The big thing we don't want to happen is to have the virus mutate and we have multiple strains going around like we do with the flu or cold. If it gets to that point it will be near impossible to get a vaccine for the different strains. We are in the first time in history able to try and stop a virus before it's able to mutate into multiple strains. If we are able to get vaccines out in time by limiting the spread we will soon never have to worry about covid again. It will be like polio and small pox, gone.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

CCSnow said:


> The whole idea behind the quarantine and wearing of masks isn't just to prevent the more at risk from getting it. The big thing we don't want to happen is to have the virus mutate and we have multiple strains going around like we do with the flu or cold. If it gets to that point it will be near impossible to get a vaccine for the different strains. We are in the first time in history able to try and stop a virus before it's able to mutate into multiple strains. If we are able to get vaccines out in time by limiting the spread we will soon never have to worry about covid again. It will be like polio and small pox, gone.


How does one prevent a virus from mutating? Especially one that has multiple hosts?

That is the difference between something like smallpox and coronaviruses.

On top of that, Covid-19 affects the upper airway which scientists state is almost an entirely separate immune system and very difficult to find effective vaccines for.

Folks thinking vaccines will solve the problem are in for a rude surprise.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Folks thinking vaccines will solve the problem are in for a rude surprise.


So....are you now saying vaccines are fake, just like the virus?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

From what I have read this IS a mutated form of corona..
It is not the first and you are fooling yourself if you think its the last. They have had plenty of time to create vaccines for these, this one seems too rushed to work without risk.
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/a-brief-history-of-human-coronaviruses-67600


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> So....are you now saying vaccines are fake, just like the virus?


Your reading comprehension is as lacking as snowngo's.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

CCSnow said:


> The whole idea behind the quarantine and wearing of masks isn't just to prevent the more at risk from getting it. The big thing we don't want to happen is to have the virus mutate and we have multiple strains going around like we do with the flu or cold. If it gets to that point it will be near impossible to get a vaccine for the different strains. We are in the first time in history able to try and stop a virus before it's able to mutate into multiple strains. If we are able to get vaccines out in time by limiting the spread we will soon never have to worry about covid again. It will be like polio and small pox, gone.


I believe the Danes already mucked up the mutation thing....

https://www.who.int/csr/don/03-december-2020-mink-associated-sars-cov2-denmark/en/


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Your reading comprehension is as lacking as snowngo's.


No it's not. That's what you said.


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## CCSnow (Jan 25, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> How does one prevent a virus from mutating? Especially one that has multiple hosts?
> 
> That is the difference between something like smallpox and coronaviruses.
> 
> ...


Less people who get it = less multiplication of the virus which is less chances of it mutating. That is why they killed all the minx in Denmark because it went rampant amoung over a million of them and it mutated. Thankfully that mutation was mild enough they could limit the number of people that got it and they believe that the vaccine would have worked for it as well. The flu has several versions that go around at one time and the cold has way more than that. That's why they can not create effective vaccines for them. If you can create a cocktail for one virus vs the tens they have to guess at for flu then the 95% effective vaccine can eradicate the vaccine before it is able to mutate in a way like the flu and cold has been able to over thousands of years...


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## CCSnow (Jan 25, 2016)

Woops mink not minx.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

CCSnow said:


> Less people who get it = less multiplication of the virus which is less chances of it mutating. That is why they killed all the minx in Denmark because it went rampant amoung over a million of them and it mutated. Thankfully that mutation was mild enough they could limit the number of people that got it and they believe that the vaccine would have worked for it as well. The flu has several versions that go around at one time and the cold has way more than that. That's why they can not create effective vaccines for them. If you can create a cocktail for one virus vs the tens they have to guess at for flu then the 95% effective vaccine can eradicate the vaccine before it is able to mutate in a way like the flu and cold has been able to over thousands of years...


More people get it, the better the herd immunity.

The common cold can be caused by a coronavirus (or rhinovirus) and it hasn't been eradicated yet.

There are at least 2 issues that cause problems believing a vaccine will solve the problem.

1) As I mentioned, the upper respiratory system is somewhat considered a separate immune system, making it very difficult to create effective vaccines for viruses that infect that part of the body. See common cold. 
2) It is very difficult to create effective vaccines for a virus that has more than 1 host, which coronaviruses do.

This is why it was rather "simple" to control and eradicate smallpox. Polio has NOT been eradicated. And ironically, smallpox has not been either, it just isn't going through the general public. That's why it is considered a biological weapon.

I wouldn't suggest you hold your breath that these vaccines that normally take 5-10 years for development and full testing are anywhere near as effective as is advertised and they aren't just reducing symptoms, not infection.

Again, you're dreaming if you think a rushed vaccine is going to be the answer.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2020/11...id-19-vaccine-can-destroy-your-immune-system/


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

What if it is?

Vaccines /science / computers have come along way since we invented a vaccine for smallpox, polio and rubella, measles etc etc


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What if it is WHAT?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Not WHAT, IS.


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## CCSnow (Jan 25, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> More people get it, the better the herd immunity.
> 
> The common cold can be caused by a coronavirus (or rhinovirus) and it hasn't been eradicated yet.
> 
> ...


It is actually believed to be a blood disease and not a respiratory disease. The reason you can't make a cold vaccine is because there are over 200 types of viruses that can be described as the common cold, this is a single virus at the moment. The flu vaccine is a cocktail of 3 to 4 flue types that they think will be most likely to be spread that year. There are different strains of covid that come about but they are similar enough that the body and vaccine are able to defend against them. Herd immunity is likely not to work either because the antibodies doesn't seem to last very long for some. I think the states though need to let people who want to go out to eat do it. In Indiana we have been allowed to do it since about May and our numbers are around other states that have limited it so I don't think it is a hotspot for the virus.

Polio is eradicated in countries that can afford the vaccine so it obviously worked, small pox is kept in labs. Am I going to get the vaccine as soon as it is available to me? Hell no, I already got covid so I'm going to wait and see how it effects others while I still have the antibodies. The government's plan has always been to slow the spread while we get a vaccine ready so a majority of the people can be vaccinated. Inability to transmit from person to person will cause the virus to die off then hopefully only live amoung bats in China again. That's the dream at least, it's better to live life as an optimist in my opinion.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If the vaccines are safe, why do the developers have immunity from any injury or death that might occur from them?

Then there's this:

https://notthebee.com/article/weird...neral-uncertainty-around-such-a-new-treatment
No comment about no vaccines for the other recent "pandemics"?

Regarding antibodies, it's impossible to know how long they will last. Antibodies for other coronaviruses can last up to 17 years. Just another scare tactic when saying they might not last long.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

COVID vaccine

From a doctor regarding the upcoming COVID vaccines:

Last week I must have been asked 20 times about the new COVID vaccines. 
Here are my thoughts. Please pass this informatiion onto many as you can. 
People need to have fully informed consent when it comes to injecting foreign genetic material into their bodies.
1. The COVID vaccines are mRNA vaccines. mRNA vaccines are a completely new type of vaccine. 
No mRNA vaccine has ever been licensed for human use before.
In essence, we have absolutely no idea what to expect from this vaccine. 
We have no idea if it will be effective or safe.
2. Traditional vaccine simply introduce pieces of a virus to stimulate an immune reaction. 
The new mRNA vaccine is completely different. It actually injects (transfects) molecules of synthetic genetic material from non-humans sources into our cells.
Once in the cells, the genetic material interacts with our transfer RNA (tRNA) to make a foreign protein that supposedly teaches the body to destroy the virus being coded for. 
Note that these newly created proteins are not regulated by our own DNA, and are thus completely foreign to our cells. 
What they are fully capable of doing is unknown. 
3. The mRNA molecule is vulnerable to destruction. 
So, in order to protect the fragile mRNA strands while they are being inserted into our DNA they are coated with PEGylated lipid nanoparticles. 
This coating hides the mRNA from our immune system which ordinarily would kill any foreign material injected into the body.
PEGylated lipid nanoparticles have been used in several different drugs for years. 
Because of their effect on immune system balance, several studies have shown them to induce allergies and autoimmune diseases. 
Additionally, PEGylated lipid nanoparticles have been shown to trigger their own immune reactions, and to cause damage to the liver.
4. These new vaccines are additionally contaminated with aluminum, mercury, and possibly formaldehyde.
The manufacturers have not yet disclosed what other toxins they contain.
5. Since viruses mutate frequently, the chance of any vaccine working for more than a year is unlikely. 
That is why the flu vaccine changes every year. 
Last year's vaccine is no more valuable than last year's newspaper.
6. Absolutely no long term safety studies will have been done to ensure that any of these vaccines don't cause the cancer, seizures, heart disease, allergies, and autoimmune diseases seen with other vaccines.
If you ever wanted to be guinea pig for Big Pharma, now is your golden opportunity.
7. Many experts question whether the mRNA technology is ready for prime time.
In November 2020, Dr. Peter Jay Hotez said of the new mRNA vaccines, "I worry about innovation at the expense of practicality because they [the mRNA vaccines] are weighted toward technology platforms that have never made it to licensure before." 
Dr. Hotez is Professor of Pediatrics and Molecular Virology & Microbiology at Baylor College of Medicine, where he is also Director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development.
8. Michal Linial, PhD is a Professor of Biochemistry. 
Because of her research and forecasts on COVID-19, Dr. Linial has been widely quoted in the media. 
She recently stated, "I won't be taking it [the mRNA vaccine] immediately - probably not for at least the coming year. 
We have to wait and see whether it really works. We will have a safety profile for only a certain number of months, so if there is a long-term effect after two years, we cannot know."
9. In November 2020, The Washington Post reported on hesitancy among healthcare professionals in the United States to the mRNA vaccines, citing surveys which reported that: "some did not want to be in the first round, so they could wait and see if there are potential side effects", and that "doctors and nurses want more data before championing vaccines to end the pandemic".
10. Since the death rate from COVID resumed to the normal flu death rate way back in early September, the pandemic has been over since then.
Therefore, at this point in time no vaccine is needed. 
The current scare tactics regarding "escalating cases" is based on a PCR test that because it exceeds 34 amplifications has a 100% false positive rate unless it is performed between the 3rd and 5th day after the first day of symptoms. 
It is therefor 100% inaccurate in people with no symptoms. 
This is well established in the scientific literature. See the attachment (False Positive PCR testing is up to 100%!) for more information on this.
If you go to the CDC site (file:///C:/Users/docto/AppData/Local/Temp/cdc_97230_DS1.pdf ), you can see that the weekly death rates in the US are now lower than they normally are during an average flu season.
11. The other reason you don't need a vaccine for COVID-19 is that substantial herd immunity has already taken place in the United States.
This is the primary reason for the end of the pandemic.
12. Unfortunately, you cannot completely trust what you hear from the media. 
They have consistently got it wrong for the past year. 
Since they are all supported by Big Pharma and the other entities selling the COVID vaccines, they are not going to be fully forthcoming when it comes to mRNA vaccines. 
Every statement I have made here is fully backed by published scientific references.
13. I would be very interested to see verification that Bill and Melinda Gates with their entire family including grandchildren, Joe Biden and President Trump and their entire families, and Anthony Fauci and his entire family all get the vaccine.
14. Anyone who after reading all this still wants to get injected with the mRNA vaccine, should at the very least have their blood checked for COVID-19 antibodies.
There is no need for a vaccine in persons already naturally immunized.
Here's my bottom line: I would much rather get a COVID infection than get a COVID vaccine. 
That would be safer and more effective. 
I have had a number of COVID positive flu cases this year.
Some were old and had health concerns.
Every single one has done really well with natural therapies including ozone therapy and IV vitamin C. 
Just because modern medicine has no effective treatment for viral infections, doesn't mean that there isn't one.

Frank Shallenberger, MD, HMD

(Copy and pasted)


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

As to #4 they're not contaminated with these metals or chemicals .
The amount of aluminum you get from a vac is about the same as you get from drinking out of an aluminum can .

There's three to four times as much formaldehyde in a pear as is in a vaccine.

Go fack cheek et yer self

And Dr. say that a fish antibiotic that the fish swim through works too,so there you go.

I guess if you have cancer or something you wouldn't want anything to do with this type of therapy?

It's an important tool, since many studies have shown that the regulation of modifications to RNA is important for the development of cancer Drugs.

Normally, epigenetic gene regulation is studied by examining dynamic modifications of DNA and proteins-so-called epigenetic modifications. The modifications can turn genes on or off without changing the underlying genetic code.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

m_ice said:


> COVID vaccine
> 
> From a doctor regarding the upcoming COVID vaccines:
> 
> ...


Pffft....nothing to see here...the vaccine will SOLVE EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

The only thing that solves everything is death.

And without science a few of us probably wouldn’t be walking around still.


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## TwiceStroked (Feb 8, 2010)

Kvston said:


> Here is a little info for all in NY. I know a company who just went into lockdown today because one employee tested positive-a symptomatic-but due to working together outside without masks they all have to enter two week lockdown. No they cannot test out of it. Cant take 1, 2, 10 tests and keep working if any one of them are negative.
> Two weeks, no work, can't leave your property or $1,500 per person per day. Welcome to Cuomos world.
> 
> RATS!!


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## TwiceStroked (Feb 8, 2010)

quigleysiding said:


> .So they wont let you work but somehow think you can come up with 1500. Makes sense.


Its Liberal Hell,the emperor is naked and heres Ur Kool-Aid


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)




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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

As soon as I read it I knew there was something wrong with this guy. Fact check completed on the wack job ice quoted. You'd have to be crazy to listen to this guy. Looks like just about anyone can be a doctor in Nevada. Glad I don't live there.


*California Medical Board Case against Frank A. Shallenberger, MD (pdf)*
*Nevada State Board of Medical Examiners Case against Frank Shallenberger, MD, 2007

Nevada State Board of Medical Examiners Case against Frank Shallenberger, MD, 2009 (pdf)*

In 1994, based on its investigation of several extremely serious complaints from his patients and their loved ones, the Medical Board of California found that Dr. Frank A. Shallenberger was subject to multiple disciplinary actions due to "gross incompetence," "repeated acts of gross negligence," and "acts of dishonesty and corruption which are substantially related to the qualifications, functions, or duties of a physician and surgeon." In response, Dr. Shallenberger chose not to contest the Board's findings, but to surrender his license to practice medicine in the state of California.
After losing his license in California, Dr. Shallenberger moved to Nevada, where he now runs the Nevada Center for Alternative and Anti-Aging Medicine in Carson City. 
In 1995, having failed to notify Nevada officials of the surrender of his California license, Dr. Shallenberger was publicly admonished by the Nevada Board of Medical Examiners. The President of the Board, Thomas Scully, MD, wrote to Shallenberger, "Your conduct casts great discredit upon you personally and professionally, and upon the medical profession in general. It is my unpleasant duty as President of the Nevada State Board of Medical Examiners to formally and publicly reprimand you for your conduct."​In September 2007, Shallenberger pleaded guilty to one count of medical malpractice in response to another complaint against him. The case arose as a consequence of Shallenberger's mistreatment of David Horton, who died after Shallenberger misdiagnosed his colon cancer as hemorrhoids, treated him with witch-hazel and other ineffectual remedies, then, after Horton's cancer had spread, unsuccessfully tried to combat the disease with Insulin Potentiation Therapy, a controversial treatment that has yet to be accepted by mainstream oncologists. 
In line with its history of protecting dangerous doctors, the Medical Board did not revoke or suspend Shallenberger's license. Instead, for his direct contribution to his patient's death, the Board fined him only $5,000 and ordered him to pay $6,500 in legal costs.
At the same meeting, the Board dismissed a second complaintagainst Shallenberger, maintaining that it could not discipline him for mistreating a patient with severe cognitive impairments because he also holds a homeopathic license, and, according to the Medical Board at that time, homeopaths in Nevada do not have to conform to ordinary standards of medical care even when they are also licensed MD's. 
In August 2009, the Medical Board responded to yet another complaint against Shallenberger, charging him with two counts of malpractice for misdiagnosing and mistreating a patient by ignoring laboratory results and improperly prescribing medication. In contrast to its earlier claim that it was not responsible for overseeing homeopathic MD's, the Board charged Shallenberger with malpractice in part because he had used homeopathic tests to "improperly diagnose" a patient "as having hypothyroidism in the face of normal lab results."


> Go to page on David Steenblock and Anthony G. Payne, stem cell therapy "experts."
> *Go to Snake Oil Salesmen Hit Jackpot in Nevada
> Go to Nevada Doctors in the News, 2005-2009*​


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Pffft....nothing to see here...


Exactly....nothing to see there but a slew of bs


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

As an update on my situation. Got clearance for myself and my drivers to plow. Still can’t work though.

My elderly uncle passed yesterday from Covid in MN. It got him in 9 days from diagnosis. He had refused treatment until yesterday. Yes he had health issues, yes he had preexisting conditions.

THESE are the people who should quarantine AND be helped out in this time. Not me. Cut the crap and let’s use ours brains.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Very sorry to hear about your uncle. Any idea why he refused treatment?


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Kvston said:


> As an update on my situation. Got clearance for myself and my drivers to plow. Still can't work though.
> 
> My elderly uncle passed yesterday from Covid in MN. It got him in 9 days from diagnosis. He had refused treatment until yesterday. Yes he had health issues, yes he had preexisting conditions.
> 
> THESE are the people who should quarantine AND be helped out in this time. Not me. Cut the crap and let's use ours brains.


My condolences


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Luther said:


> Very sorry to hear about your uncle. Any idea why he refused treatment?


he refused treatment for the same reasons he always did...

Once he was real bad my aunt had him taken in and the family made the call to treat but it was too late.

Knowing him, he refused because he was stubborn and self reliant. He hated to be a burden. I also believe he was frustrated with how this pandemic is being run by the government.

In the end he is in heaven. That's what matters for him.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Haha... threads still completely derailed. Oh well, good read on everyone’s varying opinions. Glad I don’t have to worry about employee precautions anymore because my main worry would be are they taking precautions when they are not at work. You can’t control what they do in their own time. Here in Dane County WI we have had to wear masks inside all buildings for a long time and the infection rate still spiked out of control. Not sure about masks working. They may help some but me thinks it’s very little. 
Good luck to all.


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