# Pricing '21-'22 Season



## Mark Oomkes

What's everyone doing for pricing this year? 

Up? Down? Stay the same? 

Do you do job costing to determine if you need to raise prices across the board? 

We went up quite a bit on our residential prices and have been getting some pushback already. Not sure if they've missed the news about inflation. We're telling them the cost per service at the price quoted and explaining the manpower shortage as well as fuel just about doubling. Seems like we never have a problem filling routes so if I even wanted to think about dropping prices, I certainly wouldn't be doing it this early.


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## Western1

Up up and away!!!


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## cwren2472

Just because someone_ whines_ about a price increase doesn't mean they won't pay it


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## Mark Oomkes

cwren2472 said:


> Just because someone_ whines_ about a price increase doesn't mean they won't pay it


Really don't care either way. We've had several customers from the route we dropped last year call and ask...they were anything but pleased with the service they hired last year.


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## EWSplow

Still on the fence of weather its worth doing at all. 
I've been getting a few new referrals, so I haven't decided. 
There is no possible way I could leave prices the same and continue. 
The biggest factor is walks. I'm not even sure I could find decent help if I double my rates and double pay for sidewalk crews. 
This should be in the rants section, but a concrete guy told me yesterday that he lost his top guy even after offering a $90K annual wage and benefits package.


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## cwren2472

Mark Oomkes said:


> Really don't care either way. We've had several customers from the route we dropped last year call and ask...they were anything but pleased with the service they hired last year.


Luckily I have no complaints with my Heinken money service...


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## Ajlawn1

Hmmmm can't hire anyone unless you're paying 50% higher in wages then last year so yeah let's take this redness right into Winter too...


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## Mark Oomkes

Ajlawn1 said:


> Hmmmm can't hire anyone unless you're paying 50% higher in wages then last year so yeah let's take this redness right into Winter too...


But you can make it up in volume...

You're getting applicants?


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## Ajlawn1

Mark Oomkes said:


> But you can make it up in volume...
> 
> You're getting applicants?


Nope, after the one good guy left for trailers I've gotten one new kid who is pretty worthless and has missed at least three/four days in the last three weeks. Lost almost 2 hours on last check due to being constantly late, we take 15 minutes for 7:01-7:15.

Cutting back and raising everything this Winter... Not dealing with trying to find help or the stress... Especially all walks will be skyrocketing on up... Bag salt is averaging $.50 a bag higher... Bulk sounds like average.


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## EWSplow

This whole people getting kicked off unemployment and having to go to work could go either way. 
Either you might be able to find applicants because of it, or they're going back to what they did before, so there's no one available. 
Construction is up, so that won't help with the available labor. 
Maybe this industry needs more automated equipment, or drones so people can work from home, or at least a nice warm truck while controlling them. 
If you'll recall, there's an engineer in Wisconsin plowing his driveway from his living room. 
Buff's daughter might be designing your next sidewalk crew...


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## EWSplow

Ajlawn1 said:


> Nope, after the one good guy left for trailers I've gotten one new kid who is pretty worthless and has missed at least three/four days in the last three weeks. Lost almost 2 hours on last check due to being constantly late, we take 15 minutes for 7:01-7:15.
> 
> Cutting back and raising everything this Winter... Not dealing with trying to find help or the stress... Especially all walks will be skyrocketing on up... Bag salt is averaging $.50 a bag higher... Bulk sounds like average.


Out of curiosity, what do new hires at a trailer plant make?
I've heard ads on the radio for warehouse trainees starting at $21/ hour + benefits.


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## cwren2472

Ajlawn1 said:


> Nope, after the one good guy left for trailers I've gotten one new kid who is pretty worthless and has missed at least three/four days in the last three weeks. Lost almost 2 hours on last check due to being constantly late, we take 15 minutes for 7:01-7:15.


_MENTAL NOTE: If I get there at 7:01, I should just sit in my car until 7:14..._


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## Ajlawn1

cwren2472 said:


> _MENTAL NOTE: If I get there at 7:01, I should just sit in my car until 7:14..._


Probably, but hopefully the crew has left the lot and also left you to just head home...


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## Ajlawn1

EWSplow said:


> Out of curiosity, what do new hires at a trailer plant make?
> I've heard ads on the radio for warehouse trainees starting at $21/ hour + benefits.


Low to mid 20's all day with bennies and huge sign on bonuses... Construction hurts too as you can go to Reith and Riley right now for $35/hr...


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## cjames808

We are holding pricing on regular long term customers. Higher on most new bids, avoiding anything with extensive ground work. We did raise our ground labor $10/hr and set minimums on all machines. We have to offer more per hour this year to get labor. 

I haven’t had any vendor or supplier call me to say prices are holding or going down
In fact complete opposite as most have been sending increase letters.


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## EWSplow

Ajlawn1 said:


> Low to mid 20's all day with bennies and huge sign on bonuses... Construction hurts too as you can go to Reith and Riley right now for $35/hr...


I see almost everyone offering sign on bonuses.

Also, I've heard bartenders in Chicago are making $20/hour + tips and some benefits. Knowing a little about that industry, I did a little math and figured they're making around $50/hour.


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## cwren2472

Ajlawn1 said:


> Probably, but hopefully the crew has left the lot and also left you to just head home...


Bonus vacation day! Score!!


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## BossPlow2010

We started offering sign on bonuses after 60 days.


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## cwren2472

EWSplow said:


> I see almost everyone offering sign on bonuses.


What's everyone's feelings on sign on bonuses? We were just discussing them recently and my thought was that a sign on bonus does little more than make an employee that doesn't want to work for you ride out a 90 day period before quitting.


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## BossPlow2010

cwren2472 said:


> What's everyone's feelings on sign on bonuses? We were just discussing them recently and my thought was that a sign on bonus does little more than make an employee that doesn't want to work for you ride out a 90 day period before quitting.


Pay in increments after 90 days.


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## EWSplow

cwren2472 said:


> What's everyone's feelings on sign on bonuses? We were just discussing them recently and my thought was that a sign on bonus does little more than make an employee that doesn't want to work for you ride out a 90 day period before quitting.


I think its the way to go, but 90 days isn't long enough.


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## Ajlawn1

EWSplow said:


> I think its the way to go, but 90 days isn't long enough.


I know I've said it on here before I was offering a G to my guys if they brought someone in and they stayed the Summer...

All I heard back in Spanish was "pared"

So not sure what that meant...


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## cwren2472

Ajlawn1 said:


> I know I've said it on here before I was offering a G to my guys if they brought someone in and they stayed the Summer...
> 
> All I heard back in Spanish was "pared"
> 
> So not sure what that meant...


Was the $1k for the new employee, current employee, or both?


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## Ajlawn1

cwren2472 said:


> Was the $1k for the new employee, current employee, or both?


It was for whoever could sucker someone else into working for 3/4 months...


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## cwren2472

Ajlawn1 said:


> It was for whoever could sucker someone else into working for 3/4 months...


I guess a sucker _isn't_ born every minute after all...


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## Mark Oomkes

EWSplow said:


> This whole people getting kicked off unemployment and having to go to work could go either way.
> Either you might be able to find applicants because of it, or they're going back to what they did before, so there's no one available.
> Construction is up, so that won't help with the available labor.


We had what I believe was our first applicant that's been living off unemployment interview. Used to work for an excavator...wasn't called back due to Covid (allegedly). Interviewed for equipment operator at another snow jockey outfit last year...wasn't called back after his first interview.

Anyone else see a pattern? Both those industries are killing for skilled, reliable employees.


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## Mark Oomkes

cwren2472 said:


> What's everyone's feelings on sign on bonuses? We were just discussing them recently and my thought was that a sign on bonus does little more than make an employee that doesn't want to work for you ride out a 90 day period before quitting.


Do they work?

I was seeing everyone advertising a sign on bonus, for months at a time.

Is that what it takes to get someone in the door?

Got a couple more applicants last night. One is a high school kid that lives an hour away in good weather. The other is about an hour away also, might have potential.

Is anyone advertising that they will not require a vaccine? Still contemplating it.


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## cwren2472

Mark Oomkes said:


> Do they work?


Dunno. That was my question.



Mark Oomkes said:


> I was seeing everyone advertising a sign on bonus, for months at a time.
> 
> Is that what it takes to get someone in the door?


My thought was this:

Let's take John's $1k and assume that was for the new employee - personally I think bribing the current employee to be a head-hunter is a better strategy like he stated, even if it didn't work out for him.

Would $1k lure someone away from a job they like? I doubt it. So you are hoping that the bonus will bring in someone who:

* is currently unemployed
* is deciding between multiple companies offering the same work, for the same pay, and same benefits
* and is worth keeping for whatever the "required" time span is
* and says "well, let's go work for Mark since he'll give me a $1000"


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## BossPlow2010

cwren2472 said:


> * and says "well, let's go work for Mark since he'll give me a $1000"


But Mark's not offering it, John is...


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## cwren2472

Mark Oomkes said:


> Got a couple more applicants last night. One is a high school kid that lives an hour away in good weather. The other is about an hour away also, might have potential.


Wait, what? A high school kid is going to commute 2 hours a day to do landscaping? Just how much are you paying them? And where do I forward my resume?

Edit: wait - how much is the sign on bonus?


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## cwren2472

BossPlow2010 said:


> But Mark's not offering it, John is...


Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Mark Oomkes

cwren2472 said:


> Wait, what? A high school kid is going to commute 2 hours a day to do landscaping? Just how much are you paying them? And where do I forward my resume?


This is plowsite, not lawnsite.

Please pay attention.


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## cwren2472

Mark Oomkes said:


> This is plowsite, not lawnsite.
> 
> Please pay attention.


Sorry, I'm easily confused.


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## m_ice

We are raising prices across the board. Nothing is getting cheaper.


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## EWSplow

m_ice said:


> We are raising prices across the board. Nothing is getting cheaper.


I'm thinking that on residential, people are going sign up. Most of the people who have been sitting around at home for 18 months aren't going to be able to go to work and clear their snow.


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## jonniesmooth

I'm going to offer the same price for existing seasonal contract customers. 
Based on the last two seasons only having about 8-12 events in 2 months and then nothing, for 4 months.
I may offer a reduced seasonal with a cap on services and per push on the rest.
Commercial stuff is definitely going up.


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## EWSplow

jonniesmooth said:


> I'm going to offer the same price for existing seasonal contract customers.
> Based on the last two seasons only having about 8-12 events in 2 months and then nothing, for 4 months.
> I may offer a reduced seasonal with a cap on services and per push on the rest.
> Commercial stuff is definitely going up.


You must have been charging MP money to be able to reduce anything other than quality of service.


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## jonniesmooth

EWSplow said:


> You must have been charging MP money to be able to reduce anything other than quality of service.


It will still be based on more pushes than the seasonal average. Just not as many as the full ride.


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## GMC Driver

EWSplow said:


> Maybe this industry needs more automated equipment,


Yes.



EWSplow said:


> If you'll recall, there's an engineer in Wisconsin plowing his driveway from his living room.
> Buff's daughter might be designing your next sidewalk crew...


Have an electrician in our neighbourhood who has designed his own remote controlled "robot" to clear his driveway as well. I keep pushing him to figure out GPS guidance for it.



jonniesmooth said:


> I'm going to offer the same price for existing seasonal contract customers.
> Based on the last two seasons only having about 8-12 events in 2 months and then nothing, for 4 months.
> I may offer a reduced seasonal with a cap on services and per push on the rest.
> Commercial stuff is definitely going up.


Kind of my mindset as well. Last 2 years here we have definitely been on the winning side of the weather.

Commercial - if it's a renewal year, expect a jump. Mostly because of the challenges with getting walks done. We've set up routes that will pay standby, but require daily checks (1.5 hours/day by 8 am), and with a per-time payout when the shovel comes out of the trunk. One guy made $22k in 5 months. He won't be back this year, says it's too much work.


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## Mark Oomkes

I couldn't remember the exact numbers, so I checked again. 

Direct labor is up 29% since last year. A small percentage of that is due to not subbing a loader and our own operator running our own loader, but by far the majority is due to higher pay rates to get and keep people. 

Fuel is up 51%. 

Maybe I should have raised my prices more...


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## Mark Oomkes

Revenue is not up 29%.


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> Revenue is not up 29%.


My gross is up, my net is not even after raising some pricing early on.


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## Mark Oomkes

LapeerLandscape said:


> My gross is up, my net is not even after raising some pricing early on.


Ditto


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## Turf Z

I agree


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## Mudly

We raised 20% in rates across the board. And ill do it again.
I also have been contemplating rc loaders for sidewalks this season as i posted a while back it seemed doable.


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## Freshwater

Raising prices for plowing, due to gas prices. Staying the same with salt, as my prices are still based on the high prices a couple years ago, I never came back down. I also have a clause in my contract to raise salt pricing in season due to shortage or price increase. I dont expect salt to stay low all season. 

Im glad this hurricane is not hitting Houston.


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## WIPensFan

Problems solved…


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## Hydromaster

But where does the boss cube go?


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## Freshwater

Hydromaster said:


> But where does the boss cube go?


Dont know where it goes, but its currently in Grand Rapids

https://grandrapids.craigslist.org/grq/d/wayland-boss-quickcube-skid-steer-salt/7362372428.html


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## LapeerLandscape

Hydromaster said:


> But where does the boss cube go?


In the dumpster


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## Mark Oomkes

Just had a call from one of the neighborhoods we dropped last year. Got me to looking at what the "competition" is charging for drives this year. Their prices did go up, but what really caught my eye is they are not doing any residential sidewalks this year.

Not knocking them, just found that very interesting.

Lady was trying to get some rough pricing for what she could expect and was wondering if walks would go for about $100/season. Between our minimum for a driveway and walks, she would have had a heart attack.

Their 3 lane drive price is less than what I am using as a minimum for a single or double. Guess that's why they claim to be the largest residential plow service in Kent County.


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## EWSplow

I've been talking with a new either sidewalk sub, or someone to take over walks completely. If I'm out, there are a few I don't want to leave hanging. 
I found out early on the CFO is in charge. 
She's also the interpreter. 
I'm still thinking about staying in and raising rates drastically. This should be a good culling process.


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## MIDTOWNPC

I had a client bargain on the increase and spread it over a 3 year deal. Used me last year then flipped to another company for this season after asking me if I’d match their price. 

this use to be similar my other business 
“We want to price 26 new laptops all the same, best deal you can give us”
If you buy 26 say $630 each 
“If you can do $620 you have a deal”
“We will yes”
“Ok we will take 3”


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## WIPensFan

God people are horrible…


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## BrettStevens

This likely not popular but in some res neigborhoods I reduce price to get volume. Have a few streets with many multiples. Almost like doing a complex


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## Mark Oomkes

So you're the WallyWorld of snow removal. 

Your choice, your loss.


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## BrettStevens

im ok with that

I hear Wally World does pretty well.


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## crazedtodo

Mark Oomkes said:


> Just had a call from one of the neighborhoods we dropped last year. Got me to looking at what the "competition" is charging for drives this year. Their prices did go up, but what really caught my eye is they are not doing any residential sidewalks this year.
> 
> Not knocking them, just found that very interesting.
> 
> Lady was trying to get some rough pricing for what she could expect and was wondering if walks would go for about $100/season. Between our minimum for a driveway and walks, she would have had a heart attack.
> 
> Their 3 lane drive price is less than what I am using as a minimum for a single or double. Guess that's why they claim to be the largest residential plow service in Kent County.


Would like some more details as im also venturing into residential but have been doing commercial for 2 years


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## Mark Oomkes

BrettStevens said:


> im ok with that
> 
> I hear Wally World does pretty well.


They sell products, not a service.


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## BrettStevens

k



Mark Oomkes said:


> So you're the WallyWorld of snow removal.
> 
> Your choice, your loss.


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> So you're the WallyWorld of snow removal.
> 
> Your choice, your loss.


Would it be safe to say wally world is the harbor freight of stores.


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## Freshwater

BrettStevens said:


> This likely not popular but in some res neigborhoods I reduce price to get volume. Have a few streets with many multiples. Almost like doing a complex


This is poor practice, IMO. if your service is good, you likely would have gotten most of those people anyway. And you wouldn't have had to get all of them to make the same $$.

I had a neighboring business try to flag me down last year to plow their lot. I declined as I dont plow anything out of contract. I was on my 2nd service at 830am. Their guy didnt make it there till 3pm. I turned a bid in for this year and found out there under new managment. I dont expect to get the lot, as my number is very high, and this new manager didnt go through last years experience. I say oh well, I would have been dropping another lot farther out to take a new one anyway. Been a long time since I've had to beg for customers, winter or summer.


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## jato

Mark Oomkes said:


> What's everyone doing for pricing this year?
> 
> Up? Down? Stay the same?
> 
> Do you do job costing to determine if you need to raise prices across the board?
> 
> We went up quite a bit on our residential prices and have been getting some pushback already. Not sure if they've missed the news about inflation. We're telling them the cost per service at the price quoted and explaining the manpower shortage as well as fuel just about doubling. Seems like we never have a problem filling routes so if I even wanted to think about dropping prices, I certainly wouldn't be doing it this early.


I have aimed high with residential so far and have not had trouble closing.
I think the same thing that happened with grass is going to happen with snow this year. A lot of small operations are going to close up shop. So I am raising rates until I start getting at least 1/3 saying "no".


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## jato

Mark Oomkes said:


> We had what I believe was our first applicant that's been living off unemployment interview. Used to work for an excavator...wasn't called back due to Covid (allegedly). Interviewed for equipment operator at another snow jockey outfit last year...wasn't called back after his first interview.
> 
> Anyone else see a pattern? Both those industries are killing for skilled, reliable employees.


Not all the skilled summer workers can get winter work, so I have been stopping guys in tractors from big contracting companies that I know do snow for the cities around me. I ask if they work in the winter, and if they want to. I give them our card and pitch them the job.

In general I think a sign on bonus is like asking to be betrayed and I would never use one for a job that is either boring or hard. But I'm thinking about a guaranteed minimum pay if they show up for the full season, and don't miss a shift. And an end of season bonus if they made every shift.
That is what farmers in central Illinois do when young kids help with detassling corn. A big end of season bonus for making it.

I'd do half the minimum guaranteed pay at the end of each month (if they made every shift when called but didn't make the minimum with hourly), and the other half at the end of the full season if hours were light and they never made it to the mimimim total. So if it's $1000/mo guaranteed minimum, for example, for a sidewalk crew leader, I'd get them to $500 each month. Paid on week 2 of the following month of course. Then at end of season if they didn't make the $3500 total minimum (or whatever it is), I'd get them there. Plus the end of season bonus if there is one. This is just generally what makes sense to me. If the goal is dependability.


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## fireside

Well I’m going up! Inflation is off the charts I got prices on simple cutting edges triple the cost plus shipping surcharge. I was warned at the dealer parts are up over 50% abs hope you don’t break something and want it in a hurry. 
Things are just way to crazy right now


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## fireside

fireside said:


> Well I'm going up! Inflation is off the charts I got prices on simple cutting edges triple the cost plus shipping surcharge. I was warned at the dealer parts are up over 50% abs hope you don't break something and want it in a hurry.
> Things are just way to crazy right now plus fuel is up $1.32 a gallon simple math says it going up


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## Kvston

Pricing is finicky up here. Still guys jumping into this business driving prices all over the place. For us we did a modest increase on clients we want to retain. For those we keep but don’t care one way of the other, we raised accordingly. For new stuff we’ve priced based on current inflation.


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## cjames808

I’ve managed to price myself out of a few already and a few stayed on with increases without any haggling. 

One customer told me they’d let me keep 4 small apts with the increase only if we did one more out of our area. Sorry I don’t have unlimited workers to be driving around. They did keep us on a larger complex with 25% increase.

It’s plows down pedal to the medal around here.


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## EWSplow

I had a client call about something else today. Since I have been doing a lot of work for her for more than a decade, I thought I'd mention I'm thinking about getting out of the snow business. 
Her response caught me of guard. 
"Would it be worth it for you to raise prices significantly and keep doing it?"
I told her that help is impossible to find and I'd at the very least be dropping all sidewalks.


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## abbe

Screw the sign on bonus. Take that number, figure out how many hours they will most likely average during the season with you, and divide. Add it to the hourly wage. Lure them in with the big hourly dollar value. 

This has been our approach and its been halfway decent. I have some steady sidewalk help that has been with me a few years. Sure there is attrition as their employment situations change, but I think the appreciate being paid well. At the end of the day they aren't full time employees for me and many work before during and after a shift. I view it that we are asking them to do **** work at **** hours based upon inconsistent weather. Pay well.

If these guys were hourly employees year round, absolutely not. But for 100-200hrs a season, $3-5 extra per hour is money well spent.

My 2 cents


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## Landgreen

Pricing went up for commercial accounts but for seasonal residential it's a different story due to last year's pathetic snowfall. There were some drives we cleared only 6-7 times where normally it's around 25 times. Before I even sent contracts out I was getting requests for reduction in seasonal pricing. Definitely not reducing our pricing but raising it will send many of them looking for another contractor. Many of these customers were new to our service last year and new to seasonal pricing. They were not excited to write that last check after not needing their drive done for several weeks and no snow on the ground.


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## LapeerLandscape

Landgreen said:


> Pricing went up for commercial accounts but for seasonal residential it's a different story due to last year's pathetic snowfall. There were some drives we cleared only 6-7 times where normally it's around 25 times. Before I even sent contracts out I was getting requests for reduction in seasonal pricing. Definitely not reducing our pricing but raising it will send many of them looking for another contractor. Many of these customers were new to our service last year and new to seasonal pricing. They were not excited to write that last check after not needing their drive done for several weeks and no snow on the ground.


I can feel their pain and completely sympathize with them but on the other hand you don't make the weather.


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## WIPensFan

But they 100% think you do… at least some of them. They also fail to realize what you need to maintain in order to be ready to perform services. It’s not like all your expenses disappear when it doesn’t snow. Some do, but not all.


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## cwren2472

Landgreen said:


> Pricing went up for commercial accounts but for seasonal residential it's a different story due to last year's pathetic snowfall. There were some drives we cleared only 6-7 times where normally it's around 25 times. Before I even sent contracts out I was getting requests for reduction in seasonal pricing. Definitely not reducing our pricing but raising it will send many of them looking for another contractor. Many of these customers were new to our service last year and new to seasonal pricing. They were not excited to write that last check after not needing their drive done for several weeks and no snow on the ground.


Do you offer residential on a per-push basis or seasonal only?


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## Freshwater

cwren2472 said:


> Do you offer residential on a per-push basis or seasonal only?





cwren2472 said:


> Do you offer residential on a per-push basis or seasonal only?


I always found residential per push invoicing, a paperwork nightmare. Trying to find time to bill all the different clients separately, all while still plowing snow, trying to find time to sleep.....


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## Mark Oomkes

Landgreen said:


> Pricing went up for commercial accounts but for seasonal residential it's a different story due to last year's pathetic snowfall. There were some drives we cleared only 6-7 times where normally it's around 25 times. Before I even sent contracts out I was getting requests for reduction in seasonal pricing. Definitely not reducing our pricing but raising it will send many of them looking for another contractor. Many of these customers were new to our service last year and new to seasonal pricing. They were not excited to write that last check after not needing their drive done for several weeks and no snow on the ground.


Lower their seasonal price but add a cap?

And I know it might fall on deaf (or stupid ears) but have you explained your costs involved whether it snows 6 times or 25 times?


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## cwren2472

Freshwater said:


> I always found residential per push invoicing, a paperwork nightmare. Trying to find time to bill all the different clients separately, all while still plowing snow, trying to find time to sleep.....


I was only asking because if he offers it already, then the clients already have another option. You can't whine about getting unlimited pushes for a fee because you were afraid of paying for 25 storms at a single push rate, and then also whine when it doesn't snow enough to "get your money's worth."

Well, you _can _whine but....


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## BUFF

Freshwater said:


> I always found residential per push invoicing, a paperwork nightmare. Trying to find time to bill all the different clients separately, all while still plowing snow, trying to find time to sleep.....


All my accounts were per push and would invoice monthly. As long as you logged your service throughoot the month it wasn't a PITA.


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## jonniesmooth

Mark Oomkes said:


> Lower their seasonal price but add a cap?


I mentioned earlier in this thread, that I am going to offer this as an option this year.
And I do offer per push,monthly option too.
One lady asked me last year, " how would you prefer I pay?"
I told her I wanted her to chose whatever option she felt comfortable with.
That I am ok with all the options I offer, or I wouldn't offer them.


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## Landgreen

LapeerLandscape said:


> I can feel their pain and completely sympathize with them but on the other hand you don't make the weather.


It will be interesting to see if some bail even without a price increase.


WIPensFan said:


> But they 100% think you do… at least some of them. They also fail to realize what you need to maintain in order to be ready to perform services. It's not like all your expenses disappear when it doesn't snow. Some do, but not all.


Customers that own a business tend to be far more understanding of price increases. They get the shaft too with increase costs for labor, equipment etc


cwren2472 said:


> Do you offer residential on a per-push basis or seasonal only?


If a resi customer requests it I will throw out a price but it's usually fairly high. We have about 20% of the resi's on a per push. Good balance for the heavy winters. For the most part we only offer seasonal. Been there done that with customers requesting to switch back and forth between the two from year to year.


Freshwater said:


> I always found residential per push invoicing, a paperwork nightmare. Trying to find time to bill all the different clients separately, all while still plowing snow, trying to find time to sleep.....


Usually takes me about a day at the end of each month. Considering switching to a two payment invoicing for resi's. I think the only blow back would be the handful that are on a tight budget and are used to four monthly payments. Many pay two invoices at a time already.


Mark Oomkes said:


> Lower their seasonal price but add a cap?
> 
> And I know it might fall on deaf (or stupid ears) but have you explained your costs involved whether it snows 6 times or 25 times?


Seems like a cap would be a pita for billing.

The resi service agreements are going out in a couple weeks so still have time to consider price increase or not.


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## cwren2472

Landgreen said:


> If a resi customer requests it I will throw out a price but it's usually fairly high. We have about 20% of the resi's on a per push. Good balance for the heavy winters. For the most part we only offer seasonal. Been there done that with customers requesting to switch back and forth between the two from year to year.


Perfect - change fairly high to "very high" and give them that option. "Whats that? That's way too much to pay per push? Well, we do offer an seasonal option - oh wait, it says here that's what you were already on...."


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## Freshwater

BUFF said:


> All my accounts were per push and would invoice monthly. As long as you logged your service throughoot the month it wasn't a PITA.


While I was still per push I had 50 resis and another 10 of my lots were per push. 60 separate invoices, envelopes, stamps, each month got old quick. I moved all my resis to seasonal with a 100% pre pay. I couldn't imagine doing resis per push when I was at my peak number of locations, a few years ago.


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## Mark Oomkes

Per time services requested by the customer are always higher than guaranteed income. Extra time invoicing is necessary also.


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## Mark Oomkes

Yes, 100% prepay for resi's. I have a couple small commercial on 100% prepay. Some are on 2 payments.


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## Landgreen

Freshwater said:


> While I was still per push I had 50 resis and another 10 of my lots were per push. 60 separate invoices, envelopes, stamps, each month got old quick. I moved all my resis to seasonal with a 100% pre pay. I couldn't imagine doing resis per push when I was at my peak number of locations, a few years ago.


Billing is always a pain. It's gotten much better with emailed invoices and online payments. A few clicks and the invoice is sent. If I had to fold, seal, stamp all our invoices I would lose my mind or what's left of it. The ole timers insist on mail. But so do I for my bills if the vendor still offers it. _Wait.... I'm an ole timer now.. crap_


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## BUFF

Freshwater said:


> While I was still per push I had 50 resis and another 10 of my lots were per push. 60 separate invoices, envelopes, stamps, each month got old quick. I moved all my resis to seasonal with a 100% pre pay. I couldn't imagine doing resis per push when I was at my peak number of locations, a few years ago.


All my invoices were emailed and the majority of payments were done electronically. Several of my customers I never met.


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## Freshwater

Landgreen said:


> Billing is always a pain. It's gotten much better with emailed invoices and online payments. A few clicks and the invoice is sent. If I had to fold, seal, stamp all our invoices I would lose my mind or what's left of it. The ole timers insist on mail. But so do I for my bills if the vendor still offers it. _Wait.... I'm an ole timer now.. crap_


Lol...
My computer is my phone, there are limitations. Plus I cant type for crap.
I just re worded some parts of my contract. This consisted of my wife on her laptop, and me telling her what to type...


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## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> All my invoices were emailed and the majority of payments were done electronically. Several of my customers I never met.


Aren't you the tech nerd...


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## LapeerLandscape

Landgreen said:


> It will be interesting to see if some bail even without a price increase.
> 
> Customers that own a business tend to be far more understanding of price increases. They get the shaft too with increase costs for labor, equipment etc
> 
> If a resi customer requests it I will throw out a price but it's usually fairly high. We have about 20% of the resi's on a per push. Good balance for the heavy winters. For the most part we only offer seasonal. Been there done that with customers requesting to switch back and forth between the two from year to year.
> 
> Usually takes me about a day at the end of each month. Considering switching to a two payment invoicing for resi's. I think the only blow back would be the handful that are on a tight budget and are used to four monthly payments. Many pay two invoices at a time already.
> 
> Seems like a cap would be a pita for billing.
> 
> The resi service agreements are going out in a couple weeks so still have time to consider price increase or not.


You will get the Karen customer that says it only snowed 6 times last year we can do it ourselves.


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## LapeerLandscape

Landgreen said:


> Billing is always a pain. It's gotten much better with emailed invoices and online payments. A few clicks and the invoice is sent. If I had to fold, seal, stamp all our invoices I would lose my mind or what's left of it. The ole timers insist on mail. But so do I for my bills if the vendor still offers it. _Wait.... I'm an ole timer now.. crap_


I'm so old fashioned I prefer cash


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## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> Aren't you the tech nerd...


Not even close but smart enough to see the benifit's of technology as a tool.


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## cwren2472

LapeerLandscape said:


> You will get the Karen customer that says it only snowed 6 times last year we can do it ourselves.


He could buy these door stoppers for those customers as a parting gift


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## BUFF

LapeerLandscape said:


> I'm so old fashioned I prefer cash


Hiding something.....


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## WIPensFan

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes, 100% prepay for resi's. I have a couple small commercial on 100% prepay. Some are on 2 payments.


How much $ are we talking for pre-pay residential? Average amount…


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## LapeerLandscape

BUFF said:


> Hiding something.....


Just guns and ammo


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## cwren2472

WIPensFan said:


> How much $ are we talking for pre-pay residential? Average amount…


Don't let @LapeerLandscape hear you asking for pricing....



LapeerLandscape said:


> Let me get this straight. You want people to flat out give there pricing that they charge customers?


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## LapeerLandscape

cwren2472 said:


> Don't let @LapeerLandscape hear you asking for pricing....


That's right


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## WIPensFan

cwren2472 said:


> Don't let @LapeerLandscape hear you asking for pricing....


Well I've given out my pricing numerous times on here. I don't see what the big deal is. It's fine if someone doesn't want to. I respect that.


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## prezek

We are in a different world with our snow totals around here, but my winter invoicing is a breeze! We go from billing 800 customers spring, summer and fall, down to 75-100 during the winter…and that is still 75-100 too many.


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## Hydromaster

Ress all sessional, with a cap.

two payments
Nov1st & Jan 1st.
no shoveling.
a deicer is available ala cart.

send out invoices:laugh:
Just a reminder that the Jan 1st
Payment is due in 2weeks or survive will stop.


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## jato

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes, 100% prepay for resi's. I have a couple small commercial on 100% prepay. Some are on 2 payments.


I like 100% prepay. 
For those doing per-push, you might want to try a CRM app that lets you keep cards on file and charge them after service. If they want per-push flexibility, they should concede to adding their card info on file to make things more convenient for you. It takes 1min to do it, the office can't see the full card number on our end, and they can take the info down at the end of the season.


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## WIPensFan

WIPensFan said:


> How much $ are we talking for pre-pay residential? Average amount…


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## Hydromaster

What’s your avg # of serviceable events a year and what are your costs of service?


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## WIPensFan

Hydromaster said:


> What's your avg # of serviceable events a year and what are your costs of service?


Me??


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## Hydromaster

WIPensFan said:


> Me??


 Not necessarily.

more to the random, what to charge question.


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## FlakePusher

same price as last year


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## Mark Oomkes

FlakePusher said:


> same price as last year


Why?


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## cjames808

I have had two new customers sign and it appears they didn’t even read the contracts. Idk


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## BadMechanic

cjames808 said:


> I have had two new customers sign and it appears they didn't even read the contracts. Idk


Where can I find customers like that?


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## Western1

Landgreen said:


> Pricing went up for commercial accounts but for seasonal residential it's a different story due to last year's pathetic snowfall. There were some drives we cleared only 6-7 times where normally it's around 25 times. Before I even sent contracts out I was getting requests for reduction in seasonal pricing. Definitely not reducing our pricing but raising it will send many of them looking for another contractor. Many of these customers were new to our service last year and new to seasonal pricing. They were not excited to write that last check after not needing their drive done for several weeks and no snow on the ground.


Tell them to go per time this winter!!!


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## E-Town

No snow on the forecast the next 30 days. Right now (1 seasonal + 3 monthly) total 4 clients. ( usually, i book between 40 - 50 residential account by the end of october)

Looking PITTY this year or will be a late start in November with last minutes booking. Last year we been out 2 to 3 times per month only for Dust barely lol, i think LOTS of client will hold off last minutes this year.


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## E-Town

Hydromaster said:


> Ress all sessional, with a cap.
> 
> two payments
> Nov1st & Jan 1st.
> no shoveling.
> a deicer is available ala cart.
> 
> send out invoices:laugh:
> Just a reminder that the Jan 1st
> Payment is due in 2weeks or survive will stop.


So you make a seasonal deal on 2 payment? I like that idea. And January is Cold with snow so you sure they will pay LOL.

With my monthly clients, March - April is always a guessing game with the weather network.


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## Landgreen

Western1 said:


> Tell them to go per time this winter!!!


Well after employees getting after me about pay raises and crazy equipment costs I'm jacking up resi pricing. No other choice. Plus already have plenty of calls coming in for new work. Contracts going out today.


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## jonniesmooth

Landgreen said:


> Well after employees getting after me about pay raises and crazy equipment costs I'm jacking up resi pricing. No other choice. Plus already have plenty of calls coming in for new work. Contracts going out today.


Just saw a headline, natural gas prices are up 180%.
How do you compensate for that?


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## Hydromaster

Wood & coal


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## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> Wood & coal


Just make sure the 4WD works before going off road for the firewood.


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## Hydromaster

Mark Oomkes said:


> Just make sure the 4WD works before going off road for the firewood.


Ore just use








& chains


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## Mark Oomkes

jonniesmooth said:


> Just saw a headline, natural gas prices are up 180%.
> How do you compensate for that?


Bidenflation line item on the invoice.


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## Landgreen

jonniesmooth said:


> Just saw a headline, natural gas prices are up 180%.
> How do you compensate for that?


Not sure that I need to. Barely use any.

Yesterday my fertilizer supplier went on and on about China and how they are cutting back nitrogen production 50%. Currently our fall ap fertilizer is up 33% from last year. Only getting worse.


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## Ajlawn1

Landgreen said:


> Not sure that I need to. Barely use any.
> 
> Yesterday my fertilizer supplier went on and on about China and how they are cutting back nitrogen production 50%. Currently our fall ap fertilizer is up 33% from last year. Only getting worse.


Copy that on fertilizer... Been ordering Quickpro on Scamazon since we can't find it around here...


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## Mark Oomkes

Just got an email from my SiteOne rep about urea and potash prices going up...again.


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## jonniesmooth

Landgreen said:


> Not sure that I need to. Barely use any.
> 
> Yesterday my fertilizer supplier went on and on about China and how they are cutting back nitrogen production 50%. Currently our fall ap fertilizer is up 33% from last year. Only getting worse.


My shop is heated with natural gas. I'll have to pull up the budget from last year and see what it cost last year.
We keep it 50° inside usually. 
Probably not this year, I wonder if I can maintain last year's budget and keep it 40°?
Now imagine people having the same conversation about their homes.
Using 70°vs 60°


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## Mark Oomkes

Forgot to mention, the "experts" are predicting prices for fert staying the same or going up until at least the third quarter of next year.


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## LapeerLandscape

jonniesmooth said:


> Just saw a headline, natural gas prices are up 180%.
> How do you compensate for that?


I heard possibly 15%


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> Just make sure the 4WD works before going off road for the firewood.


And both your transmissions are in good working order


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## jonniesmooth

LapeerLandscape said:


> I heard possibly 15%


https://www.gobankingrates.com/mone...gas-costs-inflate-180-ahead-of-winter-months/


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## Landgreen

jonniesmooth said:


> https://www.gobankingrates.com/mone...gas-costs-inflate-180-ahead-of-winter-months/


Of course they had to quote the Farmers Almanac claiming coldest winter coming. I'd rather trust our resident Wdik weather nut than that rag.


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## Ajlawn1

Landgreen said:


> I'd rather trust our resident Wdik weather nut than that rag.


The caterpillar?


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## Hydromaster

The only reason our natural gas prices would increase is because we are selling it off to Europe. 
Unlike most utilities in the United States we buy natural gas ahead of time, so our rates can stay fixed more or less not fluctuating throughout the season.

Since we started fracking oil wells we have more natural gas than we know what to do with that’s why we sell it.

then somebody thought it was a great idea to mess with Russia and not let them sell natural gas to Europe.

There is a more than enough natural gas but your country and the greenies don’t even want you to burn that anymore, they don’t want us to consume anything that has to be burned.


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## Landgreen

Ajlawn1 said:


> The caterpillar?


Sure. Wooly bears know their stuff


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## jonniesmooth

Landgreen said:


> Of course they had to quote the Farmers Almanac claiming coldest winter coming. I'd rather trust our resident Wdik weather nut than that rag.





Landgreen said:


> *Just saw a headline,*, natural gas prices are up 180%.
> How do you compensate for that?


I didn't read it,just saw the headline.


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## Freshwater

Bulk picked up at Angelo's $85, Clippers is ball parking $90-$92. I'm pretty sure they were at $82 and $85 last year. I'll be supplementing with liquid for sure this year, I didnt bother last year.


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## E-Town

E-Town said:


> No snow on the forecast the next 30 days.


First warning from The weather network October 16, 2021 (2 centimeters) :canadaflag: :bluebounce:


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## Ajlawn1

E-Town said:


> First warning from The weather network October 16, 2021 (2 centimeters) :canadaflag: :bluebounce:


How much is that?


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## E-Town

Ajlawn1 said:


> How much is that?


Not enough ( Less than an inch ) will most likely melt as soon as hit the ground lol :laugh: .


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## NoFearDeere

I raised everything 12%. We shall see how that sits....so far haven't heard to much.


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## jonniesmooth

NoFearDeere said:


> I raised everything 12%. We shall see how that sits....so far haven't heard to much.


I got one back last week. She went monthly. Will see what's in the mail today. 
I gave them till the 15th of November to reply.


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## E-Town

We got the frost so booking are up for us here.
I did raise 15% All new clients and most of our regular clients. DO or DiE lol.

Prebooking and Seasonal prepayment coming in SEEING THE LIGHT suddenly lol


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## GMC Driver

October 15th deadline is looming...

I love last minute shoppers. Especially those with "procurement divisions".

Can we get a quote? _Sure! Or you can refer to the one sent out in at the beginning of September. That one is valid until the 15th. _

What happens after the 15th? _Well by then most of all our equipment has been allocated for the season. So if you still require our service, we would have to resubmit the quote._

Well our procurement division just put out the RFQ now. So what did you base your quote on?_ The exact same service specs you have published for the past 5 years, and have been provided for you in past seasons._

So just because we were slow, it's going to cost us XX%? payup


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## Mark Oomkes

GMC Driver said:


> October 15th deadline is looming...
> 
> I love last minute shoppers. Especially those with "procurement divisions".
> 
> Can we get a quote? _Sure! Or you can refer to the one sent out in at the beginning of September. That one is valid until the 15th. _
> 
> What happens after the 15th? _Well by then most of all our equipment has been allocated for the season. So if you still require our service, we would have to resubmit the quote._
> 
> Well our procurement division just put out the RFQ now. So what did you base your quote on?_ The exact same service specs you have published for the past 5 years, and have been provided for you in past seasons._
> 
> So just because we were slow, it's going to cost us XX%? payup


Gotta love pencil pushers.


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## LapeerLandscape

GMC Driver said:


> October 15th deadline is looming...
> 
> I love last minute shoppers. Especially those with "procurement divisions".
> 
> Can we get a quote? _Sure! Or you can refer to the one sent out in at the beginning of September. That one is valid until the 15th. _
> 
> What happens after the 15th? _Well by then most of all our equipment has been allocated for the season. So if you still require our service, we would have to resubmit the quote._
> 
> Well our procurement division just put out the RFQ now. So what did you base your quote on?_ The exact same service specs you have published for the past 5 years, and have been provided for you in past seasons._
> 
> So just because we were slow, it's going to cost us XX%? payup


How long does it take? review the quote that was sent to you, should take 20 minutes or so, approve it and you still have a day to waste away.


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## cwren2472

LapeerLandscape said:


> How long does it take? review the quote that was sent to you, should take 20 minutes or so, approve it and you still have a day to waste away.


You are forgetting the committee that had to review it, say "hey, that sounds like too much money. Let's shop around (again)", wait for a bunch of higher quotes to come back, then say "ok, we'll accept your quote now. What do you mean its no longer valid....?"


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## LapeerLandscape

cwren2472 said:


> You are forgetting the committee that had to review it, say "hey, that sounds like too much money. Let's shop around (again)", wait for a bunch of higher quotes to come back, then say "ok, we'll accept your quote now. What do you mean its no longer valid....?"


You forgot the middle part. Toward the end of the meeting someone talks about going for drink then someone else says lets table this till next months meeting and off they go.


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## E-Town

^^ all those reply make me spit out my coffee ^^ LOL 
Thanks guys this morning for the laugh :laugh:


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## Ajlawn1

GMC Driver said:


> October 15th deadline is looming...
> 
> I love last minute shoppers. Especially those with "procurement divisions".
> 
> Can we get a quote? _Sure! Or you can refer to the one sent out in at the beginning of September. That one is valid until the 15th. _
> 
> What happens after the 15th? _Well by then most of all our equipment has been allocated for the season. So if you still require our service, we would have to resubmit the quote._
> 
> Well our procurement division just put out the RFQ now. So what did you base your quote on?_ The exact same service specs you have published for the past 5 years, and have been provided for you in past seasons._
> 
> So just because we were slow, it's going to cost us XX%? payup


Someone said to me yesterday he thinks these folks are late...


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## Mark Oomkes

Who?


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## TOOMUCHWALKING

Late to the thread, but my residential contracts say...

December 1 till April 1 ( free to do whatever thru Thanksgiving weekend }

Prepay for 20 visits

5% surcharge for each additional visit after 20

Doesn't say...priced to be profitable.

Doesn't say...too bad it didn't snow much last year, costs are not much different


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