# Do you have an extra charge for snow removal if above average snowfall?



## alcs (Aug 15, 2006)

I was just curious. For those contractors who work on fixed fee for season. Do you charge your clients if there is more snow than average? Or do you simply raise your rated every year?

Thank you
alcs


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

alcs said:


> I was just curious. For those contractors who work on fixed fee for season. Do you charge your clients if there is more snow than average? Or do you simply raise your rated every year?
> 
> Thank you
> alcs


We aren't selling inches, we're selling time. So to me it makes no sense to charge more just because you've hit the inches\centimeters you've budgeted for.

We have a "blizzard" clause. If there's more than 6" we reserve the right to charge over and above our normal alloted time. If it's 7" of fluff, we won't charge. If it's 5.75" of cement, we likely will.

We also have a limit on the number of trips. We allow 2 extra before this charge starts. Looks like this year will probably be the first we have to enforce it.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> We aren't selling inches, we're buying time.


Isn't that what got Bob Kraft into all kinds of trouble?



Mark Oomkes said:


> We also have a limit on the number of trips. We allow 2 extra before this charge starts. Looks like this year will probably be the first we have to enforce it.


We have always been "gracious" with our clients as well, but there comes a time when it gets abused or taken advantage of. We also will be enforcing any caps on contracts - especially when it comes to salting events or quantities. I'm not in to re-applying salt 30 minutes after it was done the 1st time when they don't see the lot looking like it does after an April shower.

It takes time to melt 5" afterall...


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## alcs (Aug 15, 2006)

Mark Oomkes said:


> We aren't selling inches, we're selling time. So to me it makes no sense to charge more just because you've hit the inches\centimeters you've budgeted for.
> 
> We have a "blizzard" clause. If there's more than 6" we reserve the right to charge over and above our normal alloted time. If it's 7" of fluff, we won't charge. If it's 5.75" of cement, we likely will.
> 
> We also have a limit on the number of trips. We allow 2 extra before this charge starts. Looks like this year will probably be the first we have to enforce it.


Thank you for your reply Mark.. I understand how you charge. i was looking for the contractors that have a flat fee for the season.. Out here very competitive and we have a flat fee for the entire season So i was wondering who has charged if there cap is surpassed for the season ?
Thank you
alcs


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## alcs (Aug 15, 2006)

GMC Driver said:


> Isn't that what got Bob Kraft into all kinds of trouble?
> 
> We have always been "gracious" with our clients as well, but there comes a time when it gets abused or taken advantage of. We also will be enforcing any caps on contracts - especially when it comes to salting events or quantities. I'm not in to re-applying salt 30 minutes after it was done the 1st time when they don't see the lot looking like it does after an April shower.
> 
> It takes time to melt 5" afterall...


 Yes GMC i find that clients expect us to pass by too many times for the contract they are on.
alcs


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

alcs said:


> i was looking for the contractors that have a flat fee for the season.. Out here very competitive and we have a flat fee for the entire season


I do have a flat fee. If there's no storms over 6" and we don't go over the budgeted number of trips, no extra charges. That would have been last season. And possibly the season before.

There are a few contracts that I am not able to charge over max because we use their contract.

Very competitive around here as well.



alcs said:


> So i was wondering who has charged if there cap is surpassed for the season ?


We do.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

GMC Driver said:


> *Isn't that what got Bob Kraft into all kinds of trouble?*
> 
> We have always been "gracious" with our clients as well, but there comes a time when it gets abused or taken advantage of. We also will be enforcing any caps on contracts - especially when it comes to salting events or quantities. I'm not in to re-applying salt 30 minutes after it was done the 1st time when they don't see the lot looking like it does after an April shower.
> 
> *It takes time to melt 5" afterall...*


Hollanders can be so very sarcastic...


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> We also have a limit on the number of trips. We allow 2 extra before this charge starts.


What if you plow two less trips (or three or four) during the season? Do you send them a refund? Seems like it would be fair to the customer since you are doing less work.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Landgreen said:


> What if you plow two less trips (or three or four) during the season? Do you send them a refund? Seems like it would be fair to the customer since you are doing less work.


No, and that is one of the reasons for the 2 "grace" trips. But I still have costs that have to be paid for whether we plow or not.

Do you get a refund if you don't use all your data on your phone? If you don't make a claim on your insurance?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Do you get a refund if you don't use all your data on your phone? If you don't make a claim on your insurance?


I have unlimited and think Progressive sends back checks for no claims...

If people can get away with seasonals having safety nets more power to them... But the whole purpose of a seasonal is for their budget number and no increases etc...


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

Setting a seasonal or monthly price, for that matter, is similar to going to Vegas and playing blackjack. The house bets you don't win and you bet you do. No body gives refunds to each other if they don't win. Seasonal is a gamble and sometimes you win and sometimes the customer does. We are in that situation right now and I almost feel guilty billing some of my customers for this past month but I noticed not a one offered me more money for the previous month when we had to work our tails off. We never bill an extra charge over and above our pre-season agreed upon price. They gamble and so do we.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Do you get a refund if you don't use all your data on your phone? If you don't make a claim on your insurance?


Do your suppliers force you to buy the same amount every month? Salt, fuel. Is your labor a fixed cost?

I never understood the "blizzard clause" with seasonals either. Why even call it that? We just had legitimate blizzard a week ago but it was just a 5-6" snowfall for the majority of our customers. Crazy drifting for some wind exposed areas.

Like AJlawn stated if a contractor can charge beyond stated amount and have repeat customers then that's good. Maybe it varies between markets, regions. There's no way I could sell a blizzard clause here. BUT that is because that those big snowfalls are already accounted in my seasonal cost. Big snows happen. Heavy drifting happens. IMO it should already be accounted in the cost of the contract and not an additional charge.

Again it may just be a regional thing. We get quite a bit more snow here than most other members so not a big deal with snowfalls over 6".


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I have unlimited and think Progressive sends back checks for no claims...
> 
> If people can get away with seasonals having safety nets more power to them... But the whole purpose of a seasonal is for their budget number and no increases etc...


I used to completely agree with you until the '13-'14 season. When I budgeted for 25 plows and some accounts had 55 plows. Others were upper 30's lower 40's. It takes an awful lot of below average seasons to make up for that.

I'm not trying to get rich off the extra charges, just cover my additional costs so I can continue to provide service without going out of business.



Landgreen said:


> Do your suppliers force you to buy the same amount every month? Salt, fuel. Is your labor a fixed cost?


Answer my question first. lol

This year I was forced to buy salt. I had to put a 50% "booking fee" down at the end of August for 1000 tons. I didn't recover those costs until the middle of February.

Fuel is variable.

Labor...I have not laid anyone off in the winter to date. I want to keep my good employees around so I find work for them and know they will be there when it snows.



Landgreen said:


> I never understood the "blizzard clause" with seasonals either. Why even call it that? We just had legitimate blizzard a week ago but it was just a 5-6" snowfall for the majority of our customers.


It's not a blizzard clause, that's why it was in quotes.

If the majority of our snowfalls are 2-6" and then we get a 16" snowfall that takes 2-3x as long as normal, isn't it fair for everyone to have some "skin in the game"? This isn't like mowing where it's fairly easy to estimate mowing times throughout the season. Longer in the spring, shorter when it warms up and dries out. And like I said, I have the option. I don't charge it immediately at 6".

Residentials have a 12" "blizzard clause". Never charged it yet.

I don't consider drifting to invoke the "blizzard clause", it's more of a significant snowfall clause.



Landgreen said:


> Again it may just be a regional thing. We get quite a bit more snow here than most other members so not a big deal with snowfalls over 6".


I think you hit the nail on the head.

We've had customers for over 40 years. No one has found another contractor because we instituted these changes. When asked about the over maximum trips, I have explained just as I have above and everyone has understood that we are partners and need to work together.

So do you include hauling and stacking in your seasonal? By your reasoning, you should.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I get the need to charge for extra services performed, but I’m on the same side as Landgreen and AJ. Seasonal is seasonal. If one can charge additionally for over service numbers on their seasonals more power to them but that would not fly around here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So how many of you have had a season with almost double your average snowfall? 

On top of that, it was cold enough that salt wasn't very effective so you're plowing 3/4-1" of snow every time because you can't burn it off with salt effectively? Not to mention salt was in short supply.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I get the need to charge for extra services performed, but I'm on the same side as Landgreen and AJ. Seasonal is seasonal. If one can charge additionally for over service numbers on their seasonals more power to them but that would not fly around here.


Like I said I've seen both ways and if you get a safety net with a cap on your end great! But I also have seen a hospital a guy did requiring money back if it didn't hit their cap...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So how many of you have had a season with almost double your average snowfall?
> 
> On top of that, it was cold enough that salt wasn't very effective so you're plowing 3/4-1" of snow every time because you can't burn it off with salt effectively? Not to mention salt was in short supply.


I have. 2 years in a row. 13-14 and 14-15. I'd have to look at records to confirm, but first one we were about 75" and the second we were about 65" if I recall. Seasonal average is 36". Yes, it hurt. Trust me, I would love to have caps on the number of services. I'd even be content with unlimited plowing if we could cap the salt applications. But seasonals around here I can't see it happening.

Honestly last year and this year have hurt much more than the 2 winters I posted above, because the inches total those years all came in 4-10" increments. Last year and this year we're basically average snowfall, but it's been a lot more 1/2-1.5" at a time over a drawn out period than a 4-8" snowfall at once. This just drives home your point of the inches fallen do not matter, the number of services is what counts.

Maybe if we gave money back at the end of the year on light years caps might fly, but I don't know anyone that wants to do that.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

On our seasonals, we have a cap on salting, but not plowing.

“Well what’s to say you’re not you’re not going to just salt when you should be plowing”
Well it comes down to an ethics, could I in good conscious salt a bunch of times just to meet the cap, absolutely not.
There’s been enough bs freezing rain storms this year to get to the cap, heck I’ve even scraped freezing rain, way below the 1” snow fall trigger for plowing, but I sleep well at night knowing I’m not salting when it won’t do anything. we also don’t count towards the cap for spot salting/ puddle patrol.
I see different ways of doing it, and I’m trying to build the business, not earn the reputation of someone who gouges their customers, there’s plenty of guys around here that do that.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I used to completely agree with you until the '13-'14 season. When I budgeted for 25 plows and some accounts had 55 plows.
> 
> *Ouch. *
> 
> ...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So how many of you have had a season with almost double your average snowfall?
> 
> On top of that, it was cold enough that salt wasn't very effective so you're plowing 3/4-1" of snow every time because you can't burn it off with salt effectively? Not to mention salt was in short supply.


I think you're the only one with above average numbers this year. We are at 45" so 20" below average... Last year was over 100" and seasonal were still ok... Now a 100 1" storms might of been a different story, but there was some decent bigger ones to add to those totals...


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

I generally use a unlimited plow contract w 2 inch trigger set at a 38 push avg . Drifting is hrly salt is sold by the ton spread. unless im using their contract. My keep it black contract is a standby retainer plus hrly and salt. Salt is guestimated in the contract for budgeting proposes, it seems to work for us.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Mudly said:


> I generally use a unlimited plow contract w 2 inch trigger set at a 38 push avg . Drifting is hrly salt is sold by the ton spread. unless im using their contract. My keep it black contract is a standby retainer plus hrly and salt. Salt is guestimated in the contract for budgeting proposes, it seems to work for us.


Average 38 pushes on a 2" trigger? Whats your average season snow total?


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Landgreen said:


> Average 38 pushes on a 2" trigger? Whats your average season snow total?


130


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Although this year is been all salt. We recored 4 inches last month.


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## magnatrac (Dec 22, 2006)

Just to be clear here, are we all talking "residential plow" ? I believe that is how it started out but I can't remember ever pricing salt by the ton for homeowners, or hauling snow for homeowners?

I hate residential even though it works out really good when I look at how many can get done in an hour. That said it's all per push. It's fair for both parties. Some years they save money , others they get what they pay for, I'm never losing money on residential .lt averages out as most are long term customers and understand. In 13/14 we worked with them because of the high number of visits ,but that was an anomaly. 

Hoa's without salt are seasonal but have per push increases if we cross 8" and 12" per event. If it was less we could get stuck plowing every day.

Commercial is a mix of per push and seasonal. All salt is per application. It kinda works like the residential plowing" they get what they pay for. That said we are a small company and do not work for any national maintenance companies. Our system has worked well for us over the years.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Actually there was no specification really. Residentials can be pretty big, this is one of our larger residential "driveways" and we can dump a 1/2 ton here in a heart beat.


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## PLOWMAN45 (Jul 2, 2003)

my cap for my residential accounts is 8 inches then it goes up


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## alcs (Aug 15, 2006)

Wow , thank you for the replies. I asked the question because it is rare we raise rates in this business, so being that i think winters like this will be more the norm for us then less snow. So i was curious on how to raise pricing. At least if you are charging extra fees on season over a certain amount above the average , i think it is acceptable. it does not happen every year. And no, i will not refund money if less snow than average.
Thank you for your input.
alcs


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

alcs said:


> Wow , thank you for the replies. I asked the question because it is rare we raise rates in this business, so being that i think winters like this will be more the norm for us then less snow. So i was curious on how to raise pricing. At least if you are charging extra fees on season over a certain amount above the average , i think it is acceptable. it does not happen every year. And no, i will not refund money if less snow than average.
> Thank you for your input.
> alcs


Hey man some of us work pretty darn hard, put yourself in a different league than rarely raise rates. Dont scavange for food and gear.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

We sell our seasonals as snow insurance. The clients are paying a monthly price to insure that their lots and walks are safe. But like all insurance there is a limit to what it covers. Guessing most of you guys auto insurance isn't going to cover plowing through a row of Bugattis totaling them. Same with seasonal contracts. It is not going to cover a several 20" plus blizzards on top of a normal season. Our clients know this going in.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

My seasonal covers all storms 6" and under. if a storm goes over 6" I charge extra for that storm.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

kimber750 said:


> We sell our seasonals as snow insurance. The clients are paying a monthly price to insure that their lots and walks are safe. But like all insurance there is a limit to what it covers. Guessing most of you guys auto insurance isn't going to cover plowing through a row of Bugattis totaling them. Same with seasonal contracts. It is not going to cover a several 20" plus blizzards on top of a normal season. Our clients know this going in.


Guess I know why I'm not a sleazy insurance sales man... If you expect them to pay you more on top you should also be ready to pay them back when there down year of snow then... Like I said if you can make a cap or blizzard clause fly more power to ya!

Any per push guy can "insure their lot is safe" the insurance is the amount they pay for the service... That flat fee is their insurance for their yearly budget...


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Guess I know why I'm not a sleazy insurance sales man... If you expect them to pay you more on top you should also be ready to pay them back when there down year of snow then... Like I said if you can make a cap or blizzard clause fly more power to ya!


I haven't had a single insurance claim in over 10 years, they haven't given me a penny back. So if protecting ourselves from the unforeseen makes us sleazy so be it. We are in this to make money, it is not a charity.

All of you claiming that seasonal contracts should give money back on light seasons, do you give money back if you finish an account quicker than budgeted? Do you use the exact same amount of salt ever application? The purpose of seasonal contracts is for clients to budget for snow removal on a NORMAL winter season. If you are unable to make your clients understand this that is on you. We have had the same accounts for many years and have yet to ever loose an account. We have gotten rid of accounts but that is entire different situation. So must be doing something right because I am sure their are plenty of other companies that will do it for much less than us. We even have clients wanting to us to service their properties that we turn down ever year.

And back to your sleazy insurance man stuff. I pay roughly $10k a month in property insurance on my rentals. 8-9 years ago a tenant caught a kitchen on fire after leaving stove on with a pan on the burner. My agent refused to replace the stove since it still worked and damage was minimal. I switched to a different company. So over $500 stove that company lost $10k a month. This was the only claim I had with this company in the 10+ years I had them. That is a sleazy insurance sales man.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

kimber750 said:


> I haven't had a single insurance claim in over 10 years, they haven't given me a penny back. So if protecting ourselves from the unforeseen makes us sleazy so be it. We are in this to make money, it is not a charity.
> 
> And back to your sleazy insurance man stuff. I pay roughly $10k a month in property insurance on my rentals. 8-9 years ago a tenant caught a kitchen on fire after leaving stove on with a pan on the burner. My agent refused to replace the stove since it still worked and damage was minimal. I switched to a different company. So over $500 stove that company lost $10k a month. This was the only claim I had with this company in the 10+ years I had them. That is a sleazy insurance sales man.


And this right here proves what I said about insurance being a BS sleazy scam and not there for you when needed...

So then you said you are selling your seasonal as snow insurance once again what are you insuring that a per push contract is not...?



kimber750 said:


> The purpose of seasonal contracts is for clients to budget for snow removal on a NORMAL winter season.


Please define a "Normal" Winter season....


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

kimber750 said:


> We sell our seasonals as snow insurance. The clients are paying a monthly price to insure that their lots and walks are safe. But like all insurance there is a limit to what it covers. Guessing most of you guys auto insurance isn't going to cover plowing through a row of Bugattis totaling them. Same with seasonal contracts. It is not going to cover a several 20" plus blizzards on top of a normal season. Our clients know this going in.


"Assurance" that you are on our list and will be serviced according to the contract. Not scrambling to find a contractor in the middle of the season.
You need a license to sell insurance.
I use this in my sales pitch for my seasonals.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Ajlawn1 said:


> And this right here proves what I said about insurance being a BS sleazy scam and not there for you when needed...
> 
> So then you said you are selling your seasonal as snow insurance once again what are you insuring that a per push contract is not...?
> 
> Please define a "Normal" Winter season....


Home and auto insurance does nothing until you need them. That is how they screw you. As for the "snow insurance", it is called a metaphor. Seasonal is a way for clients to budget their expenses. We are insuring that or clients properties are being maintained to the best of our ability. Now if we took their money and did nothing, that would be sleazy. If we priced a per push assuming it would take 3 hours and only takes 1 hour, that would be sleazy. If we lied about the amount of salt used, that would be sleazy. None of these are concerns for a client with a seasonal contract. The only concern for the client is if we above normal season.

Now what is a normal season? Well if you need that explained I can understand why you don't like seasonal contracts. But for fun take the amount of events and total snowfall over 5-10 seasons and average them. Or you could just go on the line to this google thing and search. This is what we consider a normal season. For us it is around 30". So a season with 80" is above average.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

jonniesmooth said:


> "Assurance" that you are on our list and will be serviced according to the contract. Not scrambling to find a contractor in the middle of the season.
> You need a license to sell insurance.
> I use this in my sales pitch for my seasonals.


Please refer to my last post.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

I get, you guys don't like or can't sell seasonal contracts and if you can you are unable to sell them with limits. We can. Whether it be location, type of clients or whatever else that makes seasonals with contract limits impossible for you doesn't make what we do wrong or sleazy. Our contracts also has a clause for increased cost of materials. Maybe you consider that wrong also. We should just eat all those extra costs. Like when a client requested a shoveler stay on site during an entire event. We shouldn't charge for that. 



PS there is sarcasm in this post.  Just so no one takes it all literally.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

kimber750 said:


> The only concern for the client is if we above normal season.
> 
> Now what is a normal season? Well if you need that explained I can understand why you don't like seasonal contracts. But for fun take the amount of events and total snowfall over 5-10 seasons and average them. Or you could just go on the line to this google thing and search. This is what we consider a normal season. For us it is around 30". So a season with 80" is above average.


Like I said more power to you if you can pull this off... I am just trying to understand how you sell this. So you are taking the average snow fall from 5-10 years... You are basing your seasonal pricing on that average correct?

So if that's the case why are you not using the money for the 15" year toward the 55" year? That would be "non" sleazy thing to do correct?

I get it we are all in it to make money as am I. And I have several seasonal contracts. I am just trying to understand why any client would accept this without being a total moron tbh...

The reason I ask about a normal winter and what your thinking was for being paid extra on a non-normal winter... So why should a client not be thinking the same "hey this wasn't a normal Winter why shouldn't I get money back..." You don't think property owners are in it to make money too... Just they play with a few more commas then we do.



kimber750 said:


> I get, you guys don't like or can't sell seasonal contracts and if you can you are unable to sell them with limits. We can. Whether it be location, type of clients or whatever else that makes seasonals with contract limits impossible for you doesn't make what we do wrong or sleazy.


Like I said great you can, but when you compare it to selling insurance you are not insuring anything a normal per push contract isn't...


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

We price our lots down the middle. If we get a bunch of low snowfall events we win, if we get a bunch of high snowfall events the customer wins. Salting/sanding is an extra. We do a lot of work for management companies and everything is a set price. No extras. As far as I am concerned if you tell a customer a price to do the job then stick with your price and your word. If you keep getting stung on the job maybe you priced it too low anyway. Some people do this just to get their foot in the door and then increase the price using what ever as an excuse to do so.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Like I said more power to you if you can pull this off... I am just trying to understand how you sell this. So you are taking the average snow fall from 5-10 years... You are basing your seasonal pricing on that average correct?
> 
> So if that's the case why are you not using the money for the 15" year toward the 55" year? That would be "non" sleazy thing to do correct?
> 
> ...


Like I said it was a metaphor since most seem to compare seasonal to insurance. Our seasonal price does change year to year. Whether it be the client negotiating after a light season or us after a heavy season. Current salt and fuel prices also factor into our bids. Seasonal prices is never the same. Our limits are well above the average, up charging doesn't start once we are at the average snowfall. And a 55" season wouldn't hit our limit. I can only remember one year when the we hit the limit for the contract. Limit is usually set at twice the average.

Our clients like to have a set budget for snow removal. This allows them to budget better, but like anything there can be unexpected costs that come up. Our clients understand that. So in those 55" seasons the clients makes out. In the 15" season we make out. In those 60+ seasons I like to think both make out. Were as per push contract in a 55" season would cost more to the client than our seasonal. Even with charges for over contract limit in 60+ season would be less than per push all season long.

So in the end we sell seasonal by telling the client they will have a set price each month for snow removal. No huge surprise bill in a heavy snow month.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Those of you with capped seasonals. Are you capping your inches of snowfall, or your number of services per season? And why are you doing it the way you are?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Per service for me because we are selling time not inches. 

How many inches of snow are burned off with salt? How many melt without needing any service?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Those of you with capped seasonals. Are you capping your inches of snowfall, or your number of services per season? And why are you doing it the way you are?


I do number of services. Why? Because I hate the idea of arguing how much snow fell in any given location. The NWS always seems low too when I look at snow totals from them compared to what I see with my own eyes.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Per service for me because we are selling time not inches.
> 
> How many inches of snow are burned off with salt? How many melt without needing any service?


Or wind? I have a church lot, we only plow driving lane and first third of lot during the week. Clear entire lot for Sunday morning. If the forecast allows, I plow Friday for Sunday.
3 times this season I come to plow the lot and it's blown completely clear. I guess the have The Lord's favor.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So if that's the case why are you not using the money for the 15" year toward the 55" year? That would be "non" sleazy thing to do correct?


Becuase skilled laborers need to be on standby regardless of the snow fall.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

We actually do total inches for the most part. We have one that has a cap on per service. We have no cap on salt applications, just a clause for any increase in salt price. Contract states the current price per ton at the time contract is written and some fluctuations in price. And before you ask no we don't give money back if salt prices drop. Haven't seen that happen yet. 

Still just don't understand how so many have trouble grasping this. If you go to get new tires and mechanic finds a bent rim that needs replaced is the shop supposed to eat the cost of the rim because it wasn't in the quote? You get a quote for a new furnace and HVAC guy find damage to flue, is he supposed to build you a new chimney for the cost of original quote? 

Maybe it is the assumption that seasonal prices never change? Maybe fear of loosing an account? I can see a problem in areas that don't get snow some seasons but that's not us. 

The biggest benefit we see with seasonal contracts is it also helps us budget expenses. We have several employees that get paid salary of the winter. Keeps our good employees happy and available through out the season. We are paid at the beginning of the month, no sending out invoices and waiting to get paid. Much less likely to get screwed by a client.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

I think ive mentioned it here before. I wouldn't sign my own contract. My general seasonal unlimited dosnt include removal, salt, drifting, cleanup. All the services youre getting but at hrly/tonage rate. Ive based our seasonal average pushes off of raw data. Everything else to me is so random i mean its weather so basically the customer gets what they pay for. I ask my potentials if they can tell me if it will snow on a given date months in advace, ive never gotten a rebuttal.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mudly said:


> I think ive mentioned it here before. I wouldn't sign my own contract. My general seasonal unlimited dosnt include removal, salt, drifting, cleanup. All the services youre getting but at hrly/tonage rate. Ive based our seasonal average pushes off of raw data. Everything else to me is so random i mean its weather so basically the customer gets what they pay for. I ask my potentials if they can tell me if it will snow on a given date months in advace, ive never gotten a rebuttal.


I had that same conversation with a potential new residential account this fall.
When will you be coming to do my driveway?
When did it start snowing, when did (has) it stopped snowing? Is it morning or evening?
Did we hit the trigger? Does Gannon ( one of my subs) work at Home creepshow today?
How much total accumulation are we supposed to get?
"Well ive never had anyone do my drivewsy before it quit snowing." 
So you want us to put you at the end of the route? 
"So when will you be here?" She wanted a set time.
You can't be logical with a crazy person. At least I found it out before she signed.
She even sent her contract back with 
"UNACCEPTABLE" written across it.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

kimber750 said:


> Our clients like to have a set budget for snow removal. This allows them to budget better, but like anything there can be unexpected costs that come up. Our clients understand that. So in those 55" seasons the clients makes out. In the 15" season we make out. In those 60+ seasons I like to think both make out. Were as per push contract in a 55" season would cost more to the client than our seasonal. Even with charges for over contract limit in 60+ season would be less than per push all season long.
> 
> *Understood, but this is still an open check. And on the flip side a 15" season would be far under your seasonal price it works both ways... How are you both making out in a 60" season? My guess is since you have not implemented the extras charges yet that a client doesn't really think about them and assumes it will never happen. Once it does my guess is their tune will change...
> *





kimber750 said:


> We actually do total inches for the most part. We have one that has a cap on per service. We have no cap on salt applications, just a clause for any increase in salt price. Contract states the current price per ton at the time contract is written and some fluctuations in price. And before you ask no we don't give money back if salt prices drop. Haven't seen that happen yet.
> 
> *So another open check... This is where pre purchasing your salt and locking in pricing comes in especially being a seasonal and knowing your usage based on the inches you bid it for...*
> 
> ...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Per service for me because we are selling time not inches.
> 
> How many inches of snow are burned off with salt? How many melt without needing any service?


How do you differentiate and charge per service between a 1-2" scrape and salt and a 8-10" cleanup and salt that would be considered a single event...?


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

We run a snow plowing business not a snow removal business and their are some differences between the two. We give our clients a set price to "plow" their lots. If they want salting, hauling or whatever it comes as an extra charge. The odd one wants an all inclusive price so we adjust our rates accordingly to cover unforseen circumstances. And no, if I take my truck in for a tire I don't expect them to replace a bent rim if all I asked them to quote me on was a tire. Same with a furnace, if the quoted me on a furnace only the flue is an extra. I have worked on many bid projects where one of the requirements of the bid was to have a contingency amount worked in and clearly stated in the contract. And yes some people do admit that **** happens and will have np problem paying extra if that turns out to be the case. I say work with what ever makes you and your customer happy. I guess that when I think about it we work a little bit all over the board. But we don't do caps.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Who ever said seasonal contracts were all inclusive?


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

wishfull said:


> We run a snow plowing business not a snow removal business and their are some differences between the two. We give our clients a set price to "plow" their lots. If they want salting, hauling or whatever it comes as an extra charge. The odd one wants an all inclusive price so we adjust our rates accordingly to cover unforseen circumstances. And no, if I take my truck in for a tire I don't expect them to replace a bent rim if all I asked them to quote me on was a tire. Same with a furnace, if the quoted me on a furnace only the flue is an extra. I have worked on many bid projects where one of the requirements of the bid was to have a contingency amount worked in and clearly stated in the contract. And yes some people do admit that **** happens and will have np problem paying extra if that turns out to be the case. I say work with what ever makes you and your customer happy. I guess that when I think about it we work a little bit all over the board. But we don't do caps.


Exactly, our seasonals are quoted to a certain amount of snow.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

We have seasonal contracts that are all inclusive and are quoted as such with no limits as to the amount of snow we may have to deal with.


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## NYH1 (Jan 10, 2009)

alcs said:


> I was just curious. For those contractors who work on fixed fee for season. Do you charge your clients if there is more snow than average? Or do you simply raise your rated every year?
> 
> Thank you
> alcs


No. The way I look at that would be- If I charged more because we had an above average season, they'd want money back if we had a below average season. I've never asked for more money, they've never ask for money back. It all works out in the long run. YMMV.

NYH1.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

In our case, residential no cap. Commercial are capped. We count by the occasion not by inches. Above cap is a percentage of the seasonal divided by the cap amount because fixed overhead cost is already covered. The over cap charges are for labor, fuel, and additional repairs/maintenance on the equipment. All fixed overhead costs are covered by the seasonal rate. Clients that pay us to provide salting service typically do not reach the cap level as quickly as those that don't. Hauling/relocating snow are additional charges.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

kimber750 said:


> I get, you guys don't like or can't sell seasonal contracts and if you can you are unable to sell them with limits. We can. Whether it be location, type of clients or whatever else that makes seasonals with contract limits impossible for you doesn't make what we do wrong or sleazy. Our contracts also has a clause for increased cost of materials. Maybe you consider that wrong also. We should just eat all those extra costs. Like when a client requested a shoveler stay on site during an entire event. We shouldn't charge for that.
> 
> PS there is sarcasm in this post.  Just so no one takes it all literally.


We average 30" here .. one account is set where if its under 15" for the year we give money back.. if its over 45" they pay a surcharge.. we are at 14" for the season


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

iceyman said:


> We average 30" here .. one account is set where if its under 15" for the year we give money back.. if its over 45" they pay a surcharge.. we are at 14" for the season


Better do your snow dance...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

iceyman said:


> We average 30" here .. one account is set where if its under 15" for the year we give money back.. if its over 45" they pay a surcharge.. we are at 14" for the season


Maybe Saturday night?


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Randall Ave said:


> Maybe Saturday night?


Maybe .. idk about by us..


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