# What do you think about My numbers for neighbors Church?



## c2weech (Jan 4, 2010)

Ok like the title says this is for my neighbors church. This would be my first commercial and would like to hear some input.

I am sure to not ask you guys to do this for me (cause I see others get roasted when they try it) so I just want to know if I am on the right track.

Attached is the overhead. The total lot space comes out to 117,523sq ft or about 2.7 acres.

I know about an hour per acre is average with a 7.5 blade, which I have with pro wings.

So 3-4 hours depending on snowfall sound right? I was thinking $250 per push 2-5inch or $450 6-9 inch

Opinions welcome!! Let me know how I did.

Also not sure if he wants walks shoveled but walk square footage is at about 3,000sq feet. How do you guys estimate walkway time? I haven't seen any posts mentioning it.

Thanks again


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

You have to remember,your on a time limit sometimes. If it starts snowing Saturday night into Sunday you don't have a lot of time to get done.


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## Wayne Volz (Mar 1, 2002)

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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

And beware, while Churches can be some of the best customers, neighbors/family can be the worst.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

JMO, but I think you will struggle time wise with just one truck and a 7.5 plow w/wings. If you get 5-9" of snow or more you will be there a while. I also think your price is low. There is quite a bit of dickin around there. What happens if you break-down?


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Not a simple push. Just a few questions. Where do you intend to but the snow? looks like there are limited storage areas.. lots of little areas and lots of places the snow needs to be relocated rather then just pushed to the side. what are you going to do if it starts snowing at 5 am stops at 8 am and services start at 8. IMO you will be there longer then you think


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## c2weech (Jan 4, 2010)

basher;1340651 said:


> Not a simple push. Just a few questions. Where do you intend to but the snow? looks like there are limited storage areas.. lots of little areas and lots of places the snow needs to be relocated rather then just pushed to the side. what are you going to do if it starts snowing at 5 am stops at 8 am and services start at 8. IMO you will be there longer then you think


Really? I thought it looked easy as to where to push, just go to the outside perimeters. Though I am still pretty green this would be my first on my own but I have subbed on commercial lots.

Thanks for the help so far. Keep the input coming!


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

In ideal conditions you might come close on the 3-4 hr. range, but add in any other factors; ie: wet snow, drifts, blizzards and forget it. As for just pushing the snow to the outside, what happens after the third snow fall when all of there outer spaces are gone? I've noticed around my area the bigger churches usually have someone with a wheel loader clearing the lot. I have cleared both churches and schools and sometimes you really need some H.P. onsite because 12:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. isn't the only time you'll plow. (like Christmas Eve mid morning 5" snow and it finally stops by 2:00, first service is 3:00: that's why we always use a wheel loader or two)


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## c2weech (Jan 4, 2010)

blowerman;1340687 said:


> In ideal conditions you might come close on the 3-4 hr. range, but add in any other factors; ie: wet snow, drifts, blizzards and forget it. As for just pushing the snow to the outside, what happens after the third snow fall when all of there outer spaces are gone? I've noticed around my area the bigger churches usually have someone with a wheel loader clearing the lot. I have cleared both churches and schools and sometimes you really need some H.P. onsite because 12:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m. isn't the only time you'll plow. (like Christmas Eve mid morning 5" snow and it finally stops by 2:00, first service is 3:00: that's why we always use a wheel loader or two)


I will be covering the property Sat and Sunday. They have a fulltime in house Maintance guy that does the lot with a single church truck with same size blade.

This is why he approached me. What should I tell him ? that its too big a job for me or just that with 1 truck to set realistic expectaions up front and say depending on snowfall time and amount it could be too much for me to get done on time?


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## Glenn Lawn Care (Sep 28, 2009)

You are going to want to salt all the walkways and the entire lot.... You don't want some old lady to slip and fall. You prolly would have to salt it more often to to keep this from happening. JMO.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

The problem with big lots and pick up trucks are the unknown factors.(wet heavy, when will it stop snowing, et.) If you are covering for the weekends, they tend to have a tighter schedule. Sure it can be plowed with just a truck, but in a pinch; it's big tractors, wheel loaders, and even good operators in bigger skid loaders that can make quick work of an ugly situation.
I'd say the bigger snowblowers and wheel loaders are the muscle behind well run operations. Trucks and single speed small skidloaders, we all own one: what makes you any better at clearing this lot than the next guy?


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

c2weech;1340764 said:


> I will be covering the property Sat and Sunday. They have a fulltime in house Maintance guy that does the lot with a single church truck with same size blade


But not during peak "business" hours


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## c2weech (Jan 4, 2010)

ok regardless of whether you guys think I can handle it or not is my process for estimating the time and price good?

Do you guys break it down in that wide of range 2-5in (3-4 hrs) and 6-9 inches (5-6hrs??) 10+inches(7-8 hours??) is that good? or how do you add time for the more snow just double? For example how much extra time should I budget for say per extra 3 inches.

Again I appreciate the feedback and yes this maybe too much for me to handle... but please teach me the other issues estimating time and price based on the Area given ie am I on the right rack with my thoughts.... so I can learn.

thanks


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

It's not that I think you can't handle this or the hours to truck plow are off. What most guys look at is when you need to have this lot cleared for a 9:00 a.m. Sunday service and snow is falling at 2" + per hour. Now what when you only have the one truck.


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## c2weech (Jan 4, 2010)

Ok how about people just tell me what they would charge for different snow amounts to see how what I was thinking compares with others


Thanks


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

If it helps you:
1-2.9" $280.00
3-5'9" $340.00
6"--9" $400.00

The reality is I use wheel loaders, so a 4" snow or 8" doesn't make a big difference.
But the numbers would work around here....


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Just because church starts at 8am ,they start pulling in 30-45 minutes earlier.


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## pdmissle (Oct 6, 2010)

This is not a good lot for a truck! The area near the covered entrance will need to be pushed a good ways to properly remove the snow. If you really want this lot look into renting a loader and price it out accordingly. Also keep in mind ice, many of the people attending this church could be elderly so make sure that you keep plenty of salt on hand at all times! I hope you have a large salter, your going to need around 2 yrds/tons per event.


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## mnglocker (Dec 24, 2008)

If this is your only account you'll be able to handle it with one truck. Unless you start getting a heavy long snow fall. 

If it were me, I'd have two trucks on it and a skid steer with a plow and a snow bucket or blower.


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## R.J.S. SNOWPLOW (Dec 9, 2009)

IMO you should be good with your prices but you need to find a backup buddy just in case you run into trouble like if you do break down or if you fall behind or if you don't think you can get done in time


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## coyote (Jan 6, 2011)

I think your prices are right in there and agree with the idea of having backup. I plow a church in my area and all they really care about is sunday. They dont have alot of money. I advise setting up a backup for all bigger jobs. Even if you both do it and split the profit it cuts time in half giving yourself time for other jobs.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

All I ever hear on this site is who's lowballin who, lowball this, lowball that, blah blah blah. $250.00 for 2-5" on this lot is to low! You're going to use a 1/4 -1/3 tank of gas every push depending on what type of truck you have, that's like 30-40 bucks a time. In heavier snow you'll use more. That money is straight off the top of your price. I assume you are insured so there is another expense. Truck repairs and plow maintanence in the future are additional expenses. You have to have some "vision" of down the road. Just because your truck and plow are golden now, doesn't mean they will be after plowing this church 15-20 times. My opinion on price would be $300.00/push for 1"-4". Then increase by whatever you see fit. Make sure you account for snow over 10"+. These days almost all the snow states are getting hit by 1 or 2 major storms per season, you must think of worst case scenario.


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## c2weech (Jan 4, 2010)

WIPensFan;1341705 said:


> All I ever hear on this site is who's lowballin who, lowball this, lowball that, blah blah blah. $250.00 for 2-5" on this lot is to low! You're going to use a 1/4 -1/3 tank of gas every push depending on what type of truck you have, that's like 30-40 bucks a time. In heavier snow you'll use more. That money is straight off the top of your price. I assume you are insured so there is another expense. Truck repairs and plow maintanence in the future are additional expenses. You have to have some "vision" of down the road. Just because your truck and plow are golden now, doesn't mean they will be after plowing this church 15-20 times. My opinion on price would be $300.00/push for 1"-4". Then increase by whatever you see fit. Make sure you account for snow over 10"+. These days almost all the snow states are getting hit by 1 or 2 major storms per season, you must think of worst case scenario.


I appreciate the input. Thats why I am getting opinions so I don't low ball.

Oh ans I have an update, I talked to my neighbor he said Priority are the top entrance lot and the interior lot in the back would need to be done by church time the large side lot and back and side street are rarely used and can be done when ever(no time deadline). SO does that make it more doable with my one truck?

Also I have yet to hear someone say how they estimate sidewalk time? I have the square footage but just need to know an industry average for time to apply to it.

Thanks again, this is all really helpful.


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## Plowman52 (Oct 3, 2009)

R.J.S. SNOWPLOW;1341461 said:


> IMO you should be good with your prices but you need to find a backup buddy just in case you run into trouble like if you do break down or if you fall behind or if you don't think you can get done in time


c2weech he is right... i dont no where you are in se michigan but if your close i could help you out if needed..


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## mnglocker (Dec 24, 2008)

I'm thinking you're low. I'd be at five to six hundred per push with the sidewalks with an accumulation under 4". Over that and we start adding up that base again or we're charging out at $250 an hour, because that's what I'm making doing driveways somewhere else. 

I'd get a shoveler with a 'snowplow' brand shovel or a toro single stage on the walks first thing too. I'd also write into the contract an hourly rate for stacking snow with skid steer or a wheel loader by the hour in the event you run out of space.


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## peterng (Apr 13, 2006)

I do a property similar in size to that, it has the church, office and 2 daycares, 5 entrances off the street. Handwork quantity is exceptional. 

I have the same gear as you, but the backup truck is essential. Only needed it twice last year, but would have been screwed without it.

What I see there with my production rates with the same gear as you ... I'd say average 3 hours plowing, avg 1 hour handwork avg 1/2 hour pedestrian passageway ice melt/traction control + vehicular passageway ice control.

The prowings added around 50% productivity to that straight blade, most valuable for smaller snowfalls which is 80% of them.

I can post pictures of mine if you want. I have a spreadsheet I did up from last year that summarises total time plowing and handwork all year for each snowfall that includes snowfall depths. It is a great tool for me bidding and estimating other lots since my site has a good mix of open parking areas and 2 way passageways. Screwing around in the 2 way passageways takes twice as long per sq foot than the open parking lots. If you're about 50/50 on that ratio then you've got something to start figuring with.

Good luck,
Pete


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## c2weech (Jan 4, 2010)

peterng;1349090 said:


> I do a property similar in size to that, it has the church, office and 2 daycares, 5 entrances off the street. Handwork quantity is exceptional.
> 
> I have the same gear as you, but the backup truck is essential. Only needed it twice last year, but would have been screwed without it.
> 
> ...


Yeah If you could send that to me try and PM it or I will PM you my email I think that could really be helpful and I would really appreciate it.

Thanks so much


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## mcfly89 (Nov 2, 2005)

for the record, i wouldnt touch that lot for less than 300


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## Bighammer (Aug 20, 2003)

R.J.S. SNOWPLOW;1341461 said:


> IMO you should be good with your prices but you need to find a backup buddy just in case you run into trouble like if you do break down or if you fall behind or if you don't think you can get done in time


They might be able to pray that your truck doesn't break down or you fall behind. (sort of a barter thing )


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