# National maintenance systems



## lawnboy2121 (Jan 25, 2007)

has anyone or is anyone working for this company . They called me to take over a few sites at the request of the sites. I was wondering how they where to work for . Any info would be helpful thanks


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

lawnboy2121 said:


> has anyone or is anyone working for this company . They called me to take over a few sites at the request of the sites. I was wondering how they where to work for . Any info would be helpful thanks


They called you in mid January?


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## lawnboy2121 (Jan 25, 2007)

Yes they r having a problem with one contractor and we
Where requested by the supervisor of the site because we
Plow sites around them and he likes how r site look when we
R
Done


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

My bad i saw the sites requested you.. i would stay away.. i know we turned them down


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

And they’re probably having problems with the contracter because they are paying him $.40 on the dollar to what its worth


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I always ask for their contract before pricing, I charge by the word...double price for fine print words.

https://wordcounter.net/


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

lawnboy2121 said:


> has anyone or is anyone working for this company . They called me to take over a few sites at the request of the sites. I was wondering how they where to work for . Any info would be helpful thanks


We do alot of work for them, they are pretty good to work with as long as you like paper work...their work order system is a little cantankerous. They like to pick one contractor and run with them rather than spreading their work out, so if youre a good fit they will feed you stuff.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

iceyman said:


> They called you in mid January?


Nat'l Maintenance has been having issues with every single Target store on the east coast, their prime contractors dropping the ball over the place....daily complaints so they are looking to drop and pick up new ones.
If it's a Target store youre looking at, they want liquid ice melt and bare pavement... so factor that in when agreeing to services and a price.
They're pretty picky about "icy" parking lots... which could easily mean "slush" not ice.


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

iceyman said:


> And they're probably having problems with the contracter because they are paying him $.40 on the dollar to what its worth


That! They're a national. They're gonna screw ya. Run.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

tpendagast said:


> Nat'l Maintenance has been having issues with every single Target store on the east coast, their prime contractors dropping the ball over the place....daily complaints so they are looking to drop and pick up new ones.
> If it's a Target store youre looking at, they want liquid ice melt and bare pavement... so factor that in when agreeing to services and a price.
> They're pretty picky about "icy" parking lots... which could easily mean "slush" not ice.


First year?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

we've been with natl maintenance for years, we actually have several properties through them, however I do believe this is the first year natl maintenance has had the Target account.
We havent had problems over here, but I know they were having huge issues with their east coast service providers, companies not answering the phone not calling them back and not showing up for call out services.

I know this because they accidentally sent us an email looking for someone to pick up the slack and I was like Massachusetts? 
Well I can help you out...it'll take me a week to get there and it'll cost ya!


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## Mr. Jon (Feb 24, 2010)

Last year I did my local post office, directly for the postmaster. This year it got taken over by National Maintenance. After reading through about 100 pages of their contract, I said no. Call me old school, but I like to meet the person I'm working for and shake their hand. Every time I went in the post office this winter they would tell me how they're not happy with the new people. Then I got a call at 3pm on Monday (and we were expecting snow on Tuesday) from National Maintenance asking for "emergency service" for the post office. I said I'd do it for my price, and they said ok (they sounded desperate). They also asked if I would do it for the remainder of the season and I said no. So we plowed the post office on Tuesday and I billed them on Wednesday. We'll see when I get paid, they promised me 15 days.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I am in the same boat, there isn't a lot of stuff in my town that I haven't plowed at one time or another. I keep good records, and tried the 3rd party work for a couple seasons, but they all have their own forms they wanted filled out. I spent a substantial amount of time redistributing my paperwork at the end of each shift not to mention that I was doubling up this info because they were all switching over to cell phone logging. I too am old school like to meet the people I work for.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

lawnboy2121 said:


> has anyone or is anyone working for this company . They called me to take over a few sites at the request of the sites. I was wondering how they where to work for . Any info would be helpful thanks


I done a job for them last season, You won't get your money exactly on time. There communication is very good and after a phone or email they put your money in your account shortly, They usually hit you with good numbers IMO. If you got room for them I would give it a shot. The Owner is from Israel and is a fairly honest guy. I hate NSP's and normally run fast. This outfit is not bad. Good Luck


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## lawnboy2121 (Jan 25, 2007)

Thanks for the info. It is an easy site right across the street from one of r lots so there is no travel to get there. I am waiting to see what they pay for the site they r emailing me the price they r offering today to take it over for the rest of the season .my problem is I hate paper work and don’t have time to fight or turning in paperwork


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## Mike_C (Feb 9, 2014)

I do a couple for them, the only way it works for you to make money is the situation you describe where they're right next to other accounts you already have. Paperwork will be a nightmare though if you aren't used to being buried in 100 page contracts. If you have an office staff it would make life a lot easier in dealing with them or any national for that matter


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

There’s a lot of “informal” plowing going on, especially in New York, New Jersey and New England.
However, wordy contracts in snow and ice management have been the norm for decades now.
It won’t belong til they all move in that direction, so I’d suggest getting used to them or planning an exit strategy from the business.
It’s not really about plowing anymore, it’s about Blame assignment and avenues that can be used not to pay. 
Similar to how the medical field used to be about helping people and now is more about practicing law. 
Most of those contracts are boiler plate. You learn to find the “changes” in them fairly quickly (ie how the differ from one that looks nearly identical you just signed last week)

If you actually read those post office contracts they are looking for NO sand , and if you do you have to sweep it up at your own cost (this is sneaky rather than including a sweeping price in the rfp)
They want liquid ice melt to keep it to bare pavement but the post office will constantly call for sanding. So there’s a potential pit fall.
Communication with the national AND the post office is key.
Also contract says NO corrosive substances on the sidewalk.
Ummm that’s icemelt. 
Which is hilarious because you can watch the post office throw ice melt on their own sidewalks. 

Sure you can use inhibited liquids on the sidewalk but those mostly contain a sugar that likes to track.
Which also generates complaints. 

No contact is perfect 
You just have to find where it’s going to work.
But proclaiming “I don’t do wordy contracts” is going to relegate you to neighborhood driveway limitations before long.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

tpendagast said:


> There's a lot of "informal" plowing going on, especially in New York, New Jersey and New England.
> However, wordy contracts in snow and ice management have been the norm for decades now.
> It won't belong til they all move in that direction, so I'd suggest getting used to them or planning an exit strategy from the business.
> It's not really about plowing anymore, it's about Blame assignment and avenues that can be used not to pay.
> ...


Maybe for big box Nationals.. but why would our commercial accounts all of a sudden require wordy contracts when theyve been signing our for years.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

iceyman said:


> Maybe for big box Nationals.. but why would our commercial accounts all of a sudden require wordy contracts when they've been signing our for years.


why did the post office suddenly go with national maintenance when they've been going with local contracts for years?
Why did HOAs start using property management companies?

I stated that all above, really.
It's because of risk management.
No one wants the potato, its too hot. So lets hand it off to someone else and make it their problem.
No one has found out how to blame it on someone else in a one page contract. So the contracts get wordier and wordier the more lawsuits there are because someone slipped and fell on their bum.
The End user wants to place the blame on a big company with a big insurance company, the big company wants to place the blame on a sub.
Round and round it goes, which makes something look more like a book and less like a contract.
Meanwhile the opportunists (literally there are people out there who are "professional fallers") roam around trying to fall on properties that have weak systems in place. All your customer needs is a decent claim and all of a sudden they got to do something, especially if that place is a chain of any kind.
Word gets up to corporate about the claim in jersey and the claim in new hampshire and the three claims in CT and they make a knee jerk reaction and suddenly some national company with an ISO 9001 rating sweeps up the contracts nation wide and then deals them back out to the area (sometimes the same guy) at a discounted rate because now they are taking their cut.

We have 24 hour response within one hour of the call being received.
How many of you "old school" guys who have been doing the same thing for years and years do that?
We got a target call two days ago, it hadnt snowed in a week. Their parking lot was "icy" ...no it wasnt.
But you have to service the lot.
Someone from Florida is visiting and got a little cold slush in their open toed sandal, files a complain about "ICE" and you have to go do a parking lot service that you're not getting paid for because it's a monthly fixed price.
That's why your type of doing things isnt going to last very long, because this is how risk management is being done.
No one cares about the snow.
They care about the risk.
An 1/8" of frost is more dangerous than 3" of snow in that case.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

tpendagast said:


> why did the post office suddenly go with national maintenance when they've been going with local contracts for years?
> Why did HOAs start using property management companies?
> 
> I stated that all above, really.
> ...


The post office might be the most incompetent "business" in our great country. Basing anything off of what they do will relegate you to being worse than a driveway plowman


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

iceyman said:


> The post office might be the most incompetent "business" in our great country. Basing anything off of what they do will relegate you to being worse than a driveway plowman


And we're not decussing just the USPS, but the direction of commercial and industrial snow and ice control has taken in general.

As I already pointed out it's not about snow plowing any more but risk management. 
You are just trying to hold on to "but this is the way it's always been done in my narrow view of the world"
Without attending anything like conventions or symposiums and/or paying attention to what is happening with the industry in general.
"It won't happen to me"
And "I refuse to read 100 page contracts" as an attitude is going to inevitably find your contracts in someone else's hands.

As I stated, once you've familiarized yourself with the contracts in general, they are all amazingly boilerplatey and plagaristic of each other; so after the first few, simply scan them looking for the difference, changes and fast ones they like to pull on people who don't want to read them.

Increasingly the industry is going forward with YOU signing their agreement not them agreeing to yours.
Again, your customer wants a service their way according to their specifications; you're saying you won't do that, in which case your corner customer will find someone else who will.
That's why they are not going to continue doing business they way you expect.
They have other options.
They don't have a choice but to do things differently due to the predatory nature of slip and fall claims.
"It didn't snow that day" isn't going to work in court. The property doesn't want to pay you for the call outs so they are going in the direction of monthly all inclusive contracts.

If you won't even do much as read the contract, with this it's my way or the highway concept, you're going to get passed over.
Maybe not this season or next, but the changes are inevitable and have been happening all over the continent for quite some time now.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

tpendagast said:


> And we're not decussing just the USPS, but the direction of commercial and industrial snow and ice control has taken in general.
> 
> As I already pointed out it's not about snow plowing any more but risk management.
> You are just trying to hold on to "but this is the way it's always been done in my narrow view of the world"
> ...


I'm not so sure things are the same in Alaska as they are here. Much of what you state is utter hogwash. Just like at Lawnsite, sometimes you make so much sense, and others you make none.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm not so sure things are the same in Alaska as they are here. Much of what you state is utter hogwash. Just like at Lawnsite, sometimes you make so much sense, and others you make none.


Mark
Once again you're assuming I'm talking about Alaska 
I'm not.
We USED to think exactly like icy did , 3-5 years ago.
Normally if something "happens" in the lower 48 it takes at least 10 years for it to catch on here in Alaska... if it ever does.

Had all sorts of people/consultants approaching us about iso 9001, salt, liquid , bare pavement 
Blah blah yak yak 
Five years ago any of that would have been a joke.

We haven't used salt all along like the lower 48
Heck in the 90s everyone just drove on top of the snow here. Ice? You slipped and fell? People laughed at you because you were stupid. 
Things changed a little but we've been spreading gravel and sweeping it up for decades now.
Not one salt truck around.
People used to try those "down to pavement" contracts up here and contractors would laugh st them.
Yea well that's changing up here too.
Especially this year.

It's been changing steadily in Canada and all over the northern US for a long time now.
We didn't think it would go in Alaska simply because there are no sources for salt in the whole state and ground temps are ridiculously low most of the season.

But the mere idea of "I refuse to change" or "they will do if my way or they won't get any service" is folly.
As I said putting a little time into familiarizing yourself with the 100 page contracts isn't that hard and most people who are doing good business and having their azz covered have rather lengthy contracts themselves (besides, the contracts are more like 25 pages not really 100)

Many of the "my way or the highway" old timers might even learn something by reading few of those contracts, like what kind of exclusions or language they might want to put in their own contracts.

I have seen more than a few guys put straight out of business by slip and falls and I've seen a few go out of business by refusing to change with the industry, they just got less and less contracts every year, blaming it in everyone else except themselves.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

And on the other hand, WallyWorld (at least in Michigan) has booted their NSP because of subpar performance due to subpar pay.

I have 2 customers who use their own contract. One of them now includes an exclusion I wrote in for years and they agreed to. Now I don't have to. 

You should probably do some reading up on NSP's and their contracts however. Only ignorant contractors would sign them as is.

Also, at some point, customers will realize that NSP's are not saving them money...as WallyWorld has. It costs X to keep a lot clear. If you add another layer of management without increasing the cost, then the contractor gets less than X and will only perform a level of work that he can afford. It's simple math.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

The worst thing about the 3rd party agreements really never gets mentioned. We can all read contracts, we have always known that the liability falls to us on the lower tier because we were hired to do the job.
When your 3rd party loses their contract for bad performance on the east coast what good is yours. I get your attitude that every one is infalable when it comes to their business, you are wrong though the older guys are here because of their adaptability to changing their focus not taking work because its offered.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> The worst thing about the 3rd party agreements really never gets mentioned. We can all read contracts, we have always known that the liability falls to us on the lower tier because we were hired to do the job.
> When your 3rd party loses their contract for bad performance on the east coast what good is yours. I get your attitude that every one is infalable when it comes to their business, you are wrong though the older guys are here because of their adaptability to changing their focus not taking work because its offered.


I'm not speaking specifically about national companies.

The question is "why would they stop signing our contracts that they always have"

Because there are easier ways for the customer.
Better ways for the customer.
More protection for the customer (real or imagined)

Does anyone remember CSP/CLP?
"Get certified or else all the cert people will take your business!" Hooplah?
Problem with that is that the cert didn't offer anything to the customer. 
The 100 page contract thing, however does.

The national company thing is offering those protections to the chains
That's what is attracting them.
Sure the small local guy does a better job.
I'm not arguing that, but the big companies like dentco don't even HAVE equipment, not like larger regional companies that hire subs to cover locations off their beaten path.

Company's like that don't know the snow business, they know the contract writing business.
They bid down there got all the targets (for example) and then go to Alaska and say can you spread salt for $200 a ton applied?
Dude we can't even BUY it for $200 a ton, never mind apply it.
They didn't pay attention , they don't know anything like that.

That's not the issue.
The issue is they get in front of the boss of the person you're talking to and it's out of your persons hand.
On the paperwork and billing end of the red tape at corporate it's easier for them and streamlined billing etc is all better.

So what I'm saying is your way might be better 
But it doesn't look better to the decision makers, who you aren't talking to.

The days of talking to the store manager about getting contracts are leaving steadily.

The idea that national company's will use crappy guys to do the work and the customers will learn to come back to you, isn't working.
Because of the way those 100 page contracts read.

The customers care about their liability.
They want that covered.
The complaints for quality will just reduce the over all price they pay for service. 
So lower prices and endless liability 
That's a win win for the customer.

Basically the nationals are better at writing contracts and promising things and the end user is concerned mainly about "slip and fall? Oh push that paper over to where it belongs, that's not me"

The post office for what it's worth (at the local level) hates to National way of doing it.
They say it takes 45 minutes on the phone to call in a service request and by the time I gets to the service provider, it can be the next morning.

I have our USPSs set up to email in their service request (so the work order is generated and we get paid) and cc us on that request, this way they get their service initiated within an hour and don't have to spend 45 minutes on the phone. 
All it takes is some communication and a little extra effort.

Previously (in our area at least) the USPS had been going with a local contractor they described as terrible, they called them a wrecking company not a snow company, but I guess due to government bs it's hard to change company's or set up a new rfp for them, because it doesn't come from them it comes from Colorado it Chicago or something like that, so they just kept things the way they were.

We read the 100 page contract and decided to agree to it minus a few stipulations that got amended (which took a few months) but refusing to read them at all, just takes you out of the game.

We read targets for three years and didn't agree to it for several reasons, but we did read it. 
The fourth year, we agreed to it, because basically... they couldn't get anyone to agree to it (AND be able to perform).
This year they got what they wanted.

All I'm saying is read the contracts and get to know them
Is there stuff in there you don't like? Maybe.
Will someone else take the work if you don't?
Probably. 
But there also might be somethings in those contracts that are a good idea to include in your own and/or you might pick up that work eventually.

I'll agree that electronic bs they do is crap and doesn't work 
Huge headache 
We told them we simply weren't going to use it (I can't recall what the name of the app is off hand) 
But it's a literal nightmare.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> And on the other hand, WallyWorld (at least in Michigan) has booted their NSP because of subpar performance due to subpar pay.
> 
> I have 2 customers who use their own contract. One of them now includes an exclusion I wrote in for years and they agreed to. Now I don't have to.
> 
> ...


This is true

Problem is the local store managers aren't trained (or in some cases even authorized) to negotiate contracts ... in which case they end up agreeing to contracts that aren't in corporates best interest or cost too much or end up going to the managers brother in law or something, which is usually why corporate takes the maintenance out of their hands. 
Then you have the issue on how corporate promotes/assigns store managers.
They don't typically do it by region, they do it company wide and you end up with store managers from Louisiana trying to talk to you about snow and dudes from Washington state in Georgia trying to talk to you about green grass but they don't want to pay for watering (because in their rainy world it shouldn't need it)
By the time you train your local manager on how it really works corporate moves everyone around and you've got a new rube to train, so there's always issues and bumps in the road.
Corporate doesn't see that as their fault for moving around unqualified people, they think they can solve that issue with having someone thousands of miles away make the decisions instead.

In the end, your contract can read all great and wonderful too... but it's going to take a lot of pages to look like that. 
Then you've got to get it in the right persons face.

I don't find working with national maintenance is that bad 
And no we have signed any contacts without some ammendments.
Mirror lawn was problematic and dentco is a walking nightmare ... in my experience


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

tpendagast said:


> I'm not speaking specifically about national companies.
> 
> The question is "why would they stop signing our contracts that they always have"
> 
> ...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

100 page thread. Hope I don't get tired and just sign it...lol


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Speaking of falling asleep...my contract is 1 page long. Written by an attorney. An attorney who also happens to plow snow because he's a little oof in the head like we all are. 

Zero need for a 100 page or 25 or 10 page contract.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Speaking of falling asleep...my contract is 1 page long. Written by an attorney. An attorney who also happens to plow snow because he's a little oof in the head like we all are.
> 
> Zero need for a 100 page or 25 or 10 page contract.


Ya but then how can you possiby get over on someone if you dont hide fine print on page 36 49 and 82! You must be an honest businessman


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## MFRPropertiesCT (Nov 3, 2016)

To all who work with National there's been a merger we are concerned because lately with constantly changing invoicing and what not getting paid seems to be me pulling teeth, anyone have issues this year with National and here's the link on merger:
https://www.prsm.com/blog/kellermey...n-of-east-coast/national-maintenance-services


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Ruh roh ^^^ i guess you need 110 pages to protect you from a merger


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

tpendagast said:


> Does anyone remember CSP/CLP?
> "Get certified or else all the cert people will take your business!" Hooplah?
> Problem with that is that the cert didn't offer anything to the customer.


Sure it does.

Get certified and you'll get educated...learn all there is to know about industry standards, deicers and managing risk and in turn you can educate your clients. A client does receive value from certified individuals and certified companies. There's not a client out there that ever learned a darn thing from doing business with someone who plows snow and throws salt as a hobby in the winter.

And I don't recall any industry association making claims that business will fall out of the sky, land on your face and wiggle just because you've achieved a certification.

Same goes for ISO. Just because your company achieves SN9001/ISO9001 certification doesn't mean business will automatically increase, or that you'll get tons more $$$ than the market will bear...what it means is that you are educated and have quality management systems in place that is also verified by an independent third party. You may not have automotive or aerospace manufacturing up there, but down here we have quite a bit of manufacturing plants in many different industries. Most require their top tiered vendors to become ISO certified in order to do business with them. That's when you can out-spec your competitors. Can't play a big boy game if you're not qualified and certified. Beyond that it's little more than a marketing tool. But it's a great marketing tool. It shows you're a professional, and it show's you're educated.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> It shows you're a professional, and it show's you're educated.


Wait...so if you're not certified (certifiable) you're not educated or professional?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Wait...so if you're not certified (certifiable) you're not educated or professional?


Is the certification kinda like OSHA certified? 3 days 8 hours per day and a fee can't remember how much. What a waste IMO.

Your suppose to pay for your guys to. Most just send you a letter during the layoff and tell you to get it if you want to come back to work.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Wait...so if you're not certified (certifiable) you're not educated or professional?


This was exactly my point

No one needed the cert to get/find educated competent contractors or even employees 
So the silly high cost of testing forces the whole program to fall on its face.

It's unnecessary to put "csp" after your name when your already accomplished , unless you want to hang out with your buddies in the snow sovilate circle and exchange stories.

If mr csp thinks they know something guys that have doing this for decades don't, he's delusional... in many cases csp guy is new to the game and has a lot to learn.
The knowledgeable csp guy has ALSO been at it 20 plus years and doesn't bring anything "new" to the table with the cool intials, certainly nothing the end user cares about.

ISO 9001 might on certain levels on contracts that require it.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Wait...so if you're not certified (certifiable) you're not educated or professional?


Not at all. And I didn't imply that. Having experience or behaving like a professional is not contingent on achieving a CERT. And it's not required to have an industry certification in order to conduct business. Most of us know how low the barrier is to plow and shovel snow and throw salt, and charge somebody for it. Just like having decades of experience does not mean you're knowledgeable or professional. Behaving professional is more of a personality trait and knowing how to conduct yourself in front of people. You don't need any experience or knowledge to act like a professional.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

tpendagast said:


> This was exactly my point
> 
> No one needed the cert to get/find educated competent contractors or even employees
> So the silly high cost of testing forces the whole program to fall on its face.
> ...


Not really sure how to respond to this amount of ignorance. Could be you're just a product of your environment. Alaskan snow and ice contractors are well known to be arrogant, ignorant and years behind lower 48. Which is not to say Alaska doesn't have a few real snow and ice management companies up there.

Ignorance is not a put down or a bad thing… You don't know what you don't know.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

I th


Luther said:


> Not really sure how to respond to this amount of ignorance. Could be you're just a product of your environment. Alaskan snow and ice contractors are well known to be arrogant, ignorant and years behind lower 48. Which is not to say Alaska doesn't have a few real snow and ice management companies up there.
> 
> Ignorance is not a put down or a bad thing… You don't know what you don't know.


I think the Ignorance is all yours.
Ive been doing this long before there WAS CSP, CLT/CLP or the associated organizations that have pushed the certifications over the years, only to crumble and fail in their own politics.
ALCA/PLANET/NALP... Identity crisis.
Symbiot Landscape Network
SIMA...Snowfighter Institute.
It's all been just a series of politics and self promotion.

Some People think they know something by jumping on band wagons with the "me too me too" attitude just so they can claim there is some big secret they know.

I did Lower 48 Snow and Ice Management for Two decades before I even moved to Alaska. So your assumptions of my current location is moot.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> I th
> 
> I think the Ignorance is all yours.
> Ive been doing this long before there WAS CSP, CLT/CLP or the associated organizations that
> ...


Wow!!!!!!.....Two decades....Thats impressive....The only problem is...Luther and a few others have you beat by a decade or two...I think you need to throttle it back skippy...Your ignorance is shining through...


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

lawnboy2121 said:


> Yes they r having a problem with one contractor and we
> Where requested by the supervisor of the site because we
> Plow sites around them and he likes how r site look when we
> R
> Done


Its probably not the "one contractor" its probably them.


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## lawnboy2121 (Jan 25, 2007)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Its probably not the "one contractor" its probably them.


I talked to the people in charge at the site and the contractor is 45 minutes away and only has one truck and just cannot get the job done


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

You better hurry up cause now he’s only 39 minutes away...


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

lawnboy2121 said:


> I talked to the people in charge at the site and the contractor is 45 minutes away and only has one truck and just cannot get the job done


They had problems with ALL their east coast contractors 
They even admitted it directly.

We literally have one target (there's only two in the whole state)
So it's easy for us, but I imagine in their scramble to get contractors without having previous relationships that guys they chose probably got multiple sites, we're all excited at the opportunity to grow, didn't have what they needed in place for that growth and then the east coast got hammered.

Maybe they thought they could handle multiple target sites with just a few pick up trucks?
Who knows

But you know , if they dropped the ball that bad, and you want it (and contract terms seem agreeable- DO read it all) then go for it.
They aren't a nightmare to get paid, like some of the other nationals


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## snomover (Dec 31, 2010)

Anyone from Maine or Vermont Still Waiting for Final payment from USPS this snow season? National maintenance told me they Merged with KBS and to call them for final payment? Over a month past due and no answers....


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## scaping (Apr 12, 2017)

They merged with KBS and been with National for 4 years doing a BJ'S for snow and a lowes for scaping no problem with payments so far.


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## Jimliam Cutting Edge (Dec 20, 2018)

snomover said:


> Anyone from Maine or Vermont Still Waiting for Final payment from USPS this snow season? National maintenance told me they Merged with KBS and to call them for final payment? Over a month past due and no answers....


Are you still plowing the Post Office? We are doing one and have been doing it as an emergency contractor for two months. I am not sure about signing and filing out all their forms.
Any info would be appreciated.


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## snomover (Dec 31, 2010)

They did finally square up, in July! I guess they went through a merger And it delayed final payment. But, if you show up and do a good job like you agreed to do, you'll typically get paid.


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## Jimliam Cutting Edge (Dec 20, 2018)

snomover said:


> They did finally square up, in July! I guess they went through a merger And it delayed final payment. But, if you show up and do a good job like you agreed to do, you'll typically get paid.


Are you plowing the Post Office you do this winter?


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## Jimliam Cutting Edge (Dec 20, 2018)

lawnboy2121 said:


> has anyone or is anyone working for this company . They called me to take over a few sites at the request of the sites. I was wondering how they where to work for . Any info would be helpful thanks


I was doing our local Post Office as an emergency contractor. The list of forms and picture taking is endless. We plowed November and December and have emailed the Bill's everywhere more forms and have never been paid. Gave up the account January 1. Now listed as a spare and talk to one to two diffrent people a week. Very confusing. Good luck.


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## CHCSnowman (Nov 11, 2006)

If people would tell all these national companies that they are not gonna pimp you out and make you become a secretary, photographer, banker, lawyer.....we wouldn't have to worry about them. The bottom line is, if you don't do their work.....they have no business and you end up with the contracts. It is because people will let them pimp you out and take advantage of you...that they do this. The plow guys make them, they don't make you. Stand up for yourselves....


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

We have one big company in town. They do landscaping,some mowing and excavating in the summer and snow in the winter.
They have 3 loaders, 3 skids, and arctic pushers for them. a couple front deck type sidewalk machines. I can't even count how many pick ups and plows, 8 maybe and 2 KW dump trucks.
They also sub out a couple sidewalk guys, and another 6 pick up plows and a 34' gravel semi for hauling
These are the ones who had their JD loaders repo'ed this year.
Anyway, they of course have most of the big commercial accounts in town including Wal Mart. 
We also have a new company in town, been around a couple years doing residential accounts.
One of my guys tells me, ________ lost Wal Mart to ______.
And my response was, ______ didn't "lose" Wal Mart, they let it go by not fulfilling the contract, because it was the low payer of their accounts.
And these new guys, you're going to love this part, have now expanded almost overnight from 2 pick ups with plows, to 5. And all of them are worth less then $8k.
They also got a loader and a skid both with pushers and a big stainless v box spreader.
To service the low paying WalMart.
We saw them out doing their residential stuff during our last event, they have put every and any Yahoo they can find in their trucks.
Pushing driveways into and across streets.
I don't go to WalMart, it's way on the far edge of town, so I have no idea what kind of job their doing out there. They are so far over their heads, and they think they're really something. 
This maybe should have gone in the ranting thread.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

We’ll they are know for LOW PRICES and they get or give them somehow.


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## Jimliam Cutting Edge (Dec 20, 2018)

CHCSnowman said:


> If people would tell all these national companies that they are not gonna pimp you out and make you become a secretary, photographer, banker, lawyer.....we wouldn't have to worry about them. The bottom line is, if you don't do their work.....they have no business and you end up with the contracts. It is because people will let them pimp you out and take advantage of you...that they do this. The plow guys make them, they don't make you. Stand up for yourselves....


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## Jimliam Cutting Edge (Dec 20, 2018)

We did! Now we are playing the waiting game to be paid.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Any help would be appreciated from the guys who work for them, We do 2 Lowes and have received only one payment when by now we should have 3 so far. National says they have exhausted what they can do because they've emailed KBS for weeks now, "escalated our invoices" etc. and was told by our contact at National to try calling them directly and maybe that will help...what kind of advise is that! I called them 2 weeks ago, left 7 voice mails to 7 different people and zero responses. Any contacts or help would be appreciated


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## Jimliam Cutting Edge (Dec 20, 2018)

Brian Young said:


> Any help would be appreciated from the guys who work for them, We do 2 Lowes and have received only one payment when by now we should have 3 so far. National says they have exhausted what they can do because they've emailed KBS for weeks now, "escalated our invoices" etc. and was told by our contact at National to try calling them directly and maybe that will help...what kind of advise is that! I called them 2 weeks ago, left 7 voice mails to 7 different people and zero responses. Any contacts or help would be appreciated


Brian, We were listed as an emergency contractor for our local Post Office. We plowed in November and December and they called constantly multiple times a day usually on a day when it was 50° and started asking if we had been to the account. When I informed them of the temp they acted surprised and said ok.
We were constantly asked to fill out all the paperwork and when I checked with our insurance agent they said there insurance requirements would cost me money and may not be a situation to get into. I work with my son and we don't have an office staff to deal with all the paper work and photos.
Towards the end of December we gave notice and said we were all done at the end of the year. We still would get a bunch of emails everyday and in the end we filled out all the paperwork just to get paid.
Like You we were passed around from person to person. I finally just kept calling this one woman who I spoke to at length towards the end of the nightmare she vowed that I would be paid. We were finally paid about 10 days ago.
During this time all these other calls and emails were coming in asking how it was going, crazy.
We were quite proud of the job we did and the Postmaster was getting all these compliments but when I told her of the nightmare she understood our decision to leave.
The company before us did the facility with two snowblower and little to no salt.
The company that does it now sometimes never shows or come very late well after they open.
I hope this helps that you /we are, were not alone I would say this is how they operate.
Become a polite pain in there neck and keep calling and emailing every few days.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Jimliam Cutting Edge said:


> Brian, We were listed as an emergency contractor for our local Post Office. We plowed in November and December and they called constantly multiple times a day usually on a day when it was 50° and started asking if we had been to the account. When I informed them of the temp they acted surprised and said ok.
> We were constantly asked to fill out all the paperwork and when I checked with our insurance agent they said there insurance requirements would cost me money and may not be a situation to get into. I work with my son and we don't have an office staff to deal with all the paper work and photos.
> Towards the end of December we gave notice and said we were all done at the end of the year. We still would get a bunch of emails everyday and in the end we filled out all the paperwork just to get paid.
> Like You we were passed around from person to person. I finally just kept calling this one woman who I spoke to at length towards the end of the nightmare she vowed that I would be paid. We were finally paid about 10 days ago.
> ...


Well I may have got somewhere this morning. I finally was put in touch with what seems to be the right person and she said I do show one invoice and its been paid but this is a multiple year contract right...I said yes so she did some more typing and found that the people from National hadn't emailed any further invoices! We emailed her all invoices and she says our payment will be paid up to date the next check run which is March 2 and shouldn't have any other problems. She has no idea why they haven't sent any or where they sent them to if in fact they were sent. My contact with National was made aware and he says "it makes no sense because they were sent", I guess we'll find out next week when a check shows or doesn't. Another thing is this guy at National said they offered direct deposit but it would cost us 100 per month!??? I said no thanks but asked her today and she said no it's a 25.00 fee to enter us then just deposited so Im leaning toward she is legit and my contact is way off on everything.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thankful I don't work for any NSP's.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I have one customer whose office is in Detoilet somewhere. 

The rest I can drive to within 20 minutes and ask them face to face for my money if I have to.


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## Jimliam Cutting Edge (Dec 20, 2018)

Brian Young said:


> Well I may have got somewhere this morning. I finally was put in touch with what seems to be the right person and she said I do show one invoice and its been paid but this is a multiple year contract right...I said yes so she did some more typing and found that the people from National hadn't emailed any further invoices! We emailed her all invoices and she says our payment will be paid up to date the next check run which is March 2 and shouldn't have any other problems. She has no idea why they haven't sent any or where they sent them to if in fact they were sent. My contact with National was made aware and he says "it makes no sense because they were sent", I guess we'll find out next week when a check shows or doesn't. Another thing is this guy at National said they offered direct deposit but it would cost us 100 per month!??? I said no thanks but asked her today and she said no it's a 25.00 fee to enter us then just deposited so Im leaning toward she is legit and my contact is way off on everything.


My initial contact now that you mention it never sent my invoices on to the next level. Good luck hope it works out for you.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Im just a good judge of character and write my own contracts now.Dont work for anybody i haven't met.
I worked for a third party doing a local bank and drug store. Finished my contract waited to get paid and lost them the following year to a cheaper bid. Manager and employees were happy with me. I cancelled my 25 year old bank account with them and get my prescriptions at a different pharmacy now.
I built me on principal. ..


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have one customer whose office is in Detoilet somewhere.
> 
> The rest I can drive to within 20 minutes and ask them face to face for my money if I have to.


That is 2 sandwiches in Canadian Time .....


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I did a short stint maintaining bank repo'ed properties. I worked for 2 nationals and 2 local ones.
What a nightmare. Never again.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Is it me or do all these stories pretty much end the same way???


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

m_ice said:


> Is it me or do all these stories pretty much end the same way???


It's not you...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's not you...


No.. it is him, he's listening...and you, and apparently me.


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