# Looking to Bid a 20k sq ft Apartment Complex



## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

Good Afternoon,

Im looking to bid a 20k sq ft apartment complex with a 2 inch trigger. I used a pretty basic formula after figuring my costs per job/materials (with the help of this site) to figure a rough per-push estimate at a 2 inch trigger, clearing every 2 inches. Im still in contact with the property manager and do not yet have all the information I need to write up a contract or submit a late-season bid. Attached is a picture of the spreadsheet I created to determine a ballpark figure for what I should be estimating it will cost me per push, as well as the property (outlined in red) to be serviced.

What other factors should I be taking into consideration looking forward to my first commercial property and submitting my first bid?

Any questions I should be asking or other circumstances I should be taking into consideration. Some input from anybody who has prior experience would be greatly appreciated. Thanks



http://imgur.com/aHzeH


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

how do you eat and elephant... :laugh:


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

does that allow for overhead costs, insurance, comp, etc?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

leolkfrm said:


> does that allow for overhead costs, insurance, comp, etc?


you already know the answer...


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

leolkfrm said:


> does that allow for overhead costs, insurance, comp, etc?


Yes. 


Philbilly2 said:


> you already know the answer...


It does.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

It looks to me like you are covering the things you should be. It's an easy lot. I can't comment on your pricing since I don't live in your area, but since you are saying it covers all your costs then you should be fine. Now that you have a system down, and have thought it out, does your pricing reflect what is realistic in your area? That is the real question. If not, and you are high, then you have wiggle room at least on the plowing side to adjust if that's what you want to do. That lot won't take nearly an hour if you are pushing every 2". So you can decide if you want to charge a minimum of a half hour, or whatever you want to do to be competitive. Just don't charge less time than it will actually take you. Everything I do if figured at a one hour minimum when figuring push price, but that's normal for my area.


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> It looks to me like you are covering the things you should be. It's an easy lot. I can't comment on your pricing since I don't live in your area, but since you are saying it covers all your costs then you should be fine. Now that you have a system down, and have thought it out, does your pricing reflect what is realistic in your area? That is the real question. If not, and you are high, then you have wiggle room at least on the plowing side to adjust if that's what you want to do. That lot won't take nearly an hour if you are pushing every 2". So you can decide if you want to charge a minimum of a half hour, or whatever you want to do to be competitive. Just don't charge less time than it will actually take you. Everything I do if figured at a one hour minimum when figuring push price, but that's normal for my area.


I took all my costs covered and rates and everything I need at a added a small percentage to the values to account for covering my a**. I estimated a bit on the higher side, if they do not want to take/consider my bid I will move on. If my bids continue to get rejected after a significant sample size I will reconsider and possibly adjust some numbers. I'm also still inexperienced with a plow, and am getting considerably quicker with every storm. Regardless my equations are set not to allow less than 1 hours time, with the idea that if it takes less than 30 minutes it's probably better quoted as a residential or small lot. Granted these numbers are simply to give me an "idea" of where I should be. My main concern is -is there anything in particular I should be thinking of/asking the property manager?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

That's a good plan. And testing the market that way is good. Just make sure to ask him what his expectation is for service level. I always ask what their idea of proper service is for their lot. Then I can ask follow up questions, or guide him along with his thinking process of why he is wrong lol. By that way you get a feel of what they really want and then can adjust the quote accordingly. Remember that you are the professional and need to help educate why their thought process is wrong, if that's the case.


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> That's a good plan. And testing the market that way is good. Just make sure to ask him what his expectation is for service level. I always ask what their idea of proper service is for their lot. Then I can ask follow up questions, or guide him along with his thinking process of why he is wrong lol. By that way you get a feel of what they really want and then can adjust the quote accordingly. Remember that you are the professional and need to help educate why their thought process is wrong, if that's the case.


Thank you. Also, on another note do my figures resemble relatively standard numbers? I'm asking because I want to try and iron out any "kinks" in my bid calculator. I've had a tremendous amount of help figuring out my numbers from a user here that's spent hours giving me feedback on ideas and figures I throw his way. But if you'd be willing to throw a few numbers in there and see if anything looks whacky, I'd appreciate it. I'd tell myself but haven't billed for any commercial properties lol.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I won't be help on numbers. I'm in a totally different market here. Trucks with plows get $85 per hour average if charging hourly. We don't salt anything here besides side walks on commercial properties. I charge $30 per 50lb bag of ice melt. There is no bulk salt supplier or anything so I don't know about pricing that. There are a few lots now requesting salt but they are few and far between. So there are a couple guys with tailgate spreaders that running a 3 part cinder sand to 1 part bagged ice melt mix for those lots. But it's still only applied at the end of the storm once everything is cleaned up. As you can see we do a lot of things different over here than you do back there.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I think your salt figure is off.Little less than half an acre is about 300-400 lbs give or take,cost 15.00$. If you have to pay more for salt ,that's your problem. You'll have to eat it to stay competitive.Will you be required to come back(usually during day) to clean after cars are gone.


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

leigh said:


> I think your salt figure is off.Little less than half an acre is about 300-400 lbs give or take,cost 15.00$. If you have to pay more for salt ,that's your problem. You'll have to eat it to stay competitive.Will you be required to come back(usually during day) to clean after cars are gone.


That's a perfect example for variance. Ktf says he charges $30 per 50lbs and and you're saying 10 times that costs half as much. About 1 ton of salt costs about $100 here. In bulk. Each 50lb bag is about $4. That's the material cost. The applied cost per bag is (I believe I used $6 or $6.5 per bag) $6 per 50 lbs and $200 per ton. I will further evaluate the figure and adjust accordingly.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I pay 67.50 ton reg 89.00 $ treated .I'm also in ct.You'll be bidding against contractors getting salt at same price from terminal in New London.I'm not saying everyone gets it at those prices.Around here small operators are picking up salt at retail for 125$ ton and up. I don't price my salting on lbs.If you do you need a sliding formula that lowers the price per lb as the sq footage goes up.I seem to take in about 300-400$ per ton spread.


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

I haven't shopped around much but pretty standard in the Hartford area is about 89reg 110 treated. I tried to go based off area that needed to be salted, if you're taking in 300-400/tn and paying less for salt, is charging 200/Tn too low?


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## alcl1 (Dec 30, 2016)

is your area really $200.00 per ton of bulk salt? that seems high but then again my area is high too... another option if its possible is sand? cut your overhead down leaving you still coming in cheaper... here we can get a ton of sand for around 45 bucks then we just salt the sidewalks with bags... for sand our charge is 200 per ton ($50.00 per 1/4)- for salt our area is around the 300-400 ($75.00 to $100.00 per 1/4) per ton as well.


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

alcl1 said:


> is your area really $200.00 per ton of bulk salt? that seems high but then again my area is high too... another option if its possible is sand? cut your overhead down leaving you still coming in cheaper... here we can get a ton of sand for around 45 bucks then we just salt the sidewalks with bags... for sand our charge is 200 per ton ($50.00 per 1/4)- for salt our area is around the 300-400 ($75.00 to $100.00 per 1/4) per ton as well.


No salt in bulk is about 90/ton, but charging 200/ton applied.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

OneManWithAPlow said:


> No salt in bulk is about 90/ton, but charging 200/ton applied.


I think it depends on the size of lot. If I spread a ton on one lot I could do it for 200$ .If I drop 200 lbs on a small lot I'm not going to charge 20$,more like a 100$ minimum. I make much more on the small lots.Also I would use weight for rough estimating, never mention anything to do with how much salt you'll spread in bid. You're going to use more or less depending on conditions, it all evens out .Keep It simple.


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## norb5150 (Oct 3, 2015)

Snow stored on site? Is there adequate room to store plowed snow on site for the entire season? Heavy equipment is very expensive even to rent it. In my area I have to show valid proof of adequate insurance to cover the cost of the machine to rent if/when needed. An 8hr day (8hrs on machine clock) running a simple skid steer is roughly $1000 total cost to customer. I in turn get about $100 from that. Everything else looks good, just CYA on the storage of snow. If you have to move it or remove it, your going to need machinery and dump trucks. The cost adds up fast. Do some research on prices in your area for such equipment. Also if you don't have experience running said equipment you have to hire it out. My contracts clearly explain the use of heavy equipment and fee's. You can stipulate on site storage no responsible for removal of etc. One thing to consider is where your going to store it and how much snow on average do you get. Is the planned area of storage adequate or not. Enough of my rambling. Hope some of it helps ya out.


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

norb5150 said:


> Snow stored on site? Is there adequate room to store plowed snow on site for the entire season? Heavy equipment is very expensive even to rent it. In my area I have to show valid proof of adequate insurance to cover the cost of the machine to rent if/when needed. An 8hr day (8hrs on machine clock) running a simple skid steer is roughly $1000 total cost to customer. I in turn get about $100 from that. Everything else looks good, just CYA on the storage of snow. If you have to move it or remove it, your going to need machinery and dump trucks. The cost adds up fast. Do some research on prices in your area for such equipment. Also if you don't have experience running said equipment you have to hire it out. My contracts clearly explain the use of heavy equipment and fee's. You can stipulate on site storage no responsible for removal of etc. One thing to consider is where your going to store it and how much snow on average do you get. Is the planned area of storage adequate or not. Enough of my rambling. Hope some of it helps ya out.


great insight, Thank you. I was actually considering that when I got the notification of your message in regards to snow storage/hauling. Theres a local place that rents skids for about $350/day, is it really $1000/day by you? or is that including insurance and other figures? Still, 3x is incredible.


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## norb5150 (Oct 3, 2015)

OneManWithAPlow said:


> great insight, Thank you. I was actually considering that when I got the notification of your message in regards to snow storage/hauling. Theres a local place that rents skids for about $350/day, is it really $1000/day by you? or is that including insurance and other figures? Still, 3x is incredible.


Costs $100 each way to have it delivered. Costs $75 Each time for driver to load it. Fuel cost is currently 2.95gal for diesel. the machine itself for 8hrs run time is 375.00. If you have a way to transport the machine, your costs are significantly lower. for me for now, I don't have any accounts left in which I need a machine, but if I get any I know a price range. I always try for onsite storage and have been know to have piles set just right so I'm driving on top of them with more snow.


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## shawn_ (Jan 19, 2014)

I think your salt prices are way too low I'd double that number....


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

norb5150 said:


> Costs $100 each way to have it delivered. Costs $75 Each time for driver to load it. Fuel cost is currently 2.95gal for diesel. the machine itself for 8hrs run time is 375.00. If you have a way to transport the machine, your costs are significantly lower. for me for now, I don't have any accounts left in which I need a machine, but if I get any I know a price range. I always try for onsite storage and have been know to have piles set just right so I'm driving on top of them with more snow.


THE MORE YOU KNOW!! Appreciate that. $450 just for transport and fuel, on top of that about $400 to rent. Now I see..


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

shawn_ said:


> I think your salt prices are way too low I'd double that number....


Thank you, ive heard this as well which im looking into. Also I believe the amount I thought id be using was quite liberal, which balanced it out a bit more.


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## LogansLawnCare (Aug 3, 2007)

OneManWithAPlow said:


> Thank you, ive heard this as well which im looking into. Also I believe the amount I thought id be using was quite liberal, which balanced it out a bit more.


Yeah I also agree that the salt prices are a bit low. I'm not sure what you are paying for bags, we usually get them for around $4 but that's buying them by the pallet. At $6 per bag I think you are quite low and won't be able to cover your costs. Bags work for walkways but if you can use bulk for everything you will lower your costs tremendously. Around here bulk is around 60-65 a ton so around $1.50 per 50lbs, less than half the price of bagged. Each area is different and with bulk you need a bulk spreader so some people stick with bags. Good luck with the bid.


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

LogansLawnCare said:


> Yeah I also agree that the salt prices are a bit low. I'm not sure what you are paying for bags, we usually get them for around $4 but that's buying them by the pallet. At $6 per bag I think you are quite low and won't be able to cover your costs. Bags work for walkways but if you can use bulk for everything you will lower your costs tremendously. Around here bulk is around 60-65 a ton so around $1.50 per 50lbs, less than half the price of bagged. Each area is different and with bulk you need a bulk spreader so some people stick with bags. Good luck with the bid.


Currently working on getting a spreader but it may not be a priority until next season. Maybe a tailgate for now, but even that can only hold 1/3 of a ton (so buying in bags). Also with a box id have to go through the DOT being over 10k# which is alot considering I dont yet have any commercial accounts. I may finish off my first year residential and try to get a few commercial next year now that im becoming more comofrtable with my numbers.


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