# What requires a CDL?



## Philbilly2

This is a continuation of a thread that we accidently thread jacked. (Sorry Mark)

From this thread: http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=105336&page=9

So, where were we?


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## Philbilly2

Quote:
_Originally Posted by Philbilly2 
Sorry, maybe I worded it wrong, when I read back over my post, I understand why that could be misleading. By curb weight, I meant loaded as in what is scaled.

Machine- Cat 304CR 9,780lbs
Skid Loader Trailer - 2,200lbs
Total Curb Weight - 11,980lbs

I know that these weights are not exact to the pound, they will change a little depending on fuel in machine, size of bucket/ number of buckets, mud in tracks, number of chains and binders on trailer. There is an elevator across the street from my shop that lets me weight my equipment. I think that their scale weighs in 10lb incramates. So it will vary a little, but not 2,000lbs.

With a trailer weight of say 13,000lbs to give 1,000lbs of error for fuel and mud and a van that has 12,000lb plates and scales at just over 10,000lbs. I still only get a combined weight of 23,000lbs. That is under the 26K. and under the 14K on the trailer.

*I got ya, Still curious of the GVWR's*_

To answer as best as I can....

For the van
GVWR is 12,000lbs
GAWR is 4,500lbs (front)
GAWR is 8,600lbs (rear)

Skid Loader Trailer (I am not sure on these, I will need to go to the shop to check for sure, but as far as I know they are)
GVWR is 14,000lbs 
Has (2) - 7,000lb axles


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## campkd6

I am sure I am wrong but have been told by DOT if a vehicle is lettered regardless if it is a yugo or a Mack truck it can be considered a commercial vehicle. But I am sure I am wrong. Lol


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## lilweeds

For one thing it goes the GVWR not the actual weight on the trailer. Generally any trailer the is registered at 10,001 and about needs a class A. And unless your towing a camper it really needs to be a CDL.


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## lilweeds

One more thing..... The truck needs to be registered to carry the correct combo as well.


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## MidcoastMainiac

Not true about the 10001 gvw trailer needing a cdl.. I am running a 14000 gvw behind a 9900 gvw truck with a combined gvw of 23900 and my truck is registered at 26000gvw and I am not required to have a cdl for it. If I register for 26001 lbs gvw, I would need a cdl. And if a truck that has air brakes that is registered under the 26k mark, you do not need a cdl either.


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## zman9119

From the State of Illinois:

You need a Commercial Driver's License if you operate:


Any combination of vehicles with a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more, providing the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds. 
Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more, or any such vehicle towing another not in excess of 10,000 pounds. 
Any vehicle, regardless of size, designed to transport 16 or more persons, including the driver. 
A vehicle required by federal regulations to be placarded while transporting hazardous materials.

http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/cdl/whoneeds_cdl.html


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## 02powerstroke

People all debate this up and down because there is a US gov standard that each state HAS to follow HOWEVER each state can refine that as much as they like for example requiring any trailer over 10,001 to need a class A driver licence. In my state you only need a class A if the combined weight is over 26,001.


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## lilweeds

Yes every state is a bit different. I know in PA if the vehicle has air brakes you need to have an air brake endorsement. Me I played it safe. If you know someone with the truck it cost so little to get the license.


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## cretebaby

campkd6;1115203 said:


> I am sure I am wrong but have been told by DOT if a vehicle is lettered regardless if it is a yugo or a Mack truck it can be considered a commercial vehicle. But I am sure I am wrong. Lol


A yugo would not be a CMV unless hauling haz mat.



> Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle-
> (1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or
> 
> (2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or
> 
> (3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or
> 
> (4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.


http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=r49CFR390.5

It doesn't matter if a vehicle is lettered or not.

There are 2 definitions of CMV, don't confuse this one with the definition of CMV that reauires a CDL.


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## cretebaby

lilweeds;1115441 said:


> Yes every state is a bit different. I know in PA if the vehicle has air brakes you need to have an air brake endorsement. Me I played it safe. If you know someone with the truck it cost so little to get the license.


There is no such thing as an air brake endorsement.


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## cretebaby

Philbilly2;1115163 said:


> Quote:
> _Originally Posted by Philbilly2
> Sorry, maybe I worded it wrong, when I read back over my post, I understand why that could be misleading. By curb weight, I meant loaded as in what is scaled.
> 
> Machine- Cat 304CR 9,780lbs
> Skid Loader Trailer - 2,200lbs
> Total Curb Weight - 11,980lbs
> 
> I know that these weights are not exact to the pound, they will change a little depending on fuel in machine, size of bucket/ number of buckets, mud in tracks, number of chains and binders on trailer. There is an elevator across the street from my shop that lets me weight my equipment. I think that their scale weighs in 10lb incramates. So it will vary a little, but not 2,000lbs.
> 
> With a trailer weight of say 13,000lbs to give 1,000lbs of error for fuel and mud and a van that has 12,000lb plates and scales at just over 10,000lbs. I still only get a combined weight of 23,000lbs. That is under the 26K. and under the 14K on the trailer.
> 
> *I got ya, Still curious of the GVWR's*_
> 
> To answer as best as I can....
> 
> For the van
> GVWR is 12,000lbs
> GAWR is 4,500lbs (front)
> GAWR is 8,600lbs (rear)
> 
> Skid Loader Trailer (I am not sure on these, I will need to go to the shop to check for sure, but as far as I know they are)
> GVWR is 14,000lbs
> Has (2) - 7,000lb axles


Why do you suppose he wrote you up then? Did he confuse the over 10k trailer thing or did the CGVWR being exactly 26k throw him off?


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## blowerman

Why is this issue debated on a forum... The best advice we could give you is your own states web site that should detail the exact info on cdl rules. There are not gray areas when it comes to if a cdl is needed or not. They (states as well as feds) spell out the rules to a T...


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## Township1

lilweeds;1115441 said:


> Yes every state is a bit different. I know in PA if the vehicle has air brakes you need to have an air brake endorsement. Me I played it safe. If you know someone with the truck it cost so little to get the license.





cretebaby;1115553 said:


> There is no such thing as an air brake endorsement.


Good point because it makes a big difference. The Original Poster is both wrong and right - A class C driver can drive a <26000# vehicle with air brakes, however a Class A/B driver cannot have the L restriction and drive the same vehicle, they would need to have the restriction removed.


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## cretebaby

Township1;1115719 said:


> Good point because it makes a big difference. The Original Poster is both wrong and right - A class C driver can drive a <26000# vehicle with air brakes, however a Class A/B driver cannot have the L restriction and drive the same vehicle, they would need to have the restriction removed.


Why not? 

A class A holder can drive any vehicle that a standard license holder can drive.


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## Township1

cretebaby;1115774 said:


> Why not?
> 
> A class A holder can drive any vehicle that a standard license holder can drive.


Not in this case - The holder of a PA CDL who has the "L" or air brake restriction can not drive ANY vehicle equipped with air brakes.


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## PerfectEarth

Geez, I have seen this argument all over lawnsite.... and I'm putting my two cents in again.

1. It does not matter what you haul, how much you weigh loaded/unloaded, how your load is loaded, etc....DOT officers and troopers only care about GVWR and GCWR!!...the actual manufacturer's numbers.

2. For a Class A, the rule is quite simple.... you need one if you GCWR (Combined weight) is over 26,000#.......PROVIDED (<------- the key word) that your trailer is over 10,000#

SO, like me- I drive an f550 at 19,000#.... I also have a dump trailer at 12,000#... This equals 31,000 GCWR, so I have my basic Class A, minus the air brake and tractor trailer endorsements. I can't drive those.

IF my trailer was an even 10,000# I WOULD NOT need a Class A CDL because, even though I am over the 26,000# magic number, my trailer at 10,000# keeps me good.

AND, there IS such a thing as an "Air Brake Endorsement"...I don't have one, and it's written on my license as "K- no air brake endorsement"

I also have "O- no tractor trailer"

The State/Fed rule for classes of CDL licensing is pretty straight forward, read this-

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm


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## paponte

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN AIR BRAKE ENDORSEMENT ANYMORE... IT IS A RESTRICTION!!! 

Check with YOUR state, but they should all be pretty much the same laws, since the FTA is FEDERAL.

If you tow over 10k lbs, and your not recreational... YOU NEED A CLASS A
If your truck is over 26k... YOU NEED A CLASS B
If your truck is over 26k, AND you tow over 10k... YOU NEED A CLASS A COMBINATION
If your truck is over 26k AND it has air brakes... YOU MUST NOT HAVE AN AB RESTRICTION
If your truck is over 10k AND is used COMMERCIALLY... YOU MUST HAVE DOT NUMBERS
If YOU drive a vehicle that requires a CDL... YOU MUST ALSO HAVE A DOT PHYSICAL, AND CARRY THE CERTIFICATE ON YOUR PERSON WHILE OPERATING THE VEHICLE.

It's not about the he said/she said BS people, it's the LAW!


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## cretebaby

Township1;1115813 said:


> Not in this case - The holder of a PA CDL who has the "L" or air brake restriction can not drive ANY vehicle equipped with air brakes.


Hmmm........I guess I see what you re getting at. If you have the restriction it say no vehicle with air brakes. But technically you could drive an under CDL truck with air. That has really got to confuse the guy with the gun and badge.



PerfectEarth;1115830 said:


> 2. For a Class A, the rule is quite simple.... you need one if you GCWR (Combined weight) is over 26,000#.......PROVIDED (<------- the key word) that your trailer is over 10,000#


Right the key word is PROVIDED..



PerfectEarth;1115830 said:


> AND, there IS such a thing as an "Air Brake Endorsement"...I don't have one, and it's written on my license as "K- no air brake endorsement"


So you have a "no air brake endorsement" restriction? :laughing::laughing:


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## PerfectEarth

[/QUOTE]=cretebaby;1115871So you have a "no air brake endorsement" restriction?[/QUOTE]

Sorry about the incorrect "terminology" ..... yes, I have an air brake RESTRICTION.

I think you know what I meant.


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## Township1

paponte;1115858 said:


> If YOU drive a vehicle that requires a CDL... YOU MUST ALSO HAVE A DOT PHYSICAL, AND CARRY THE CERTIFICATE ON YOUR PERSON WHILE OPERATING THE VEHICLE.


No 100% true - In Pa driving a municipal vehicle (class A & B), we are required to hold the CDL, but are exempt from DOT Physical. Oh, and out of state - don't even need the CDL - by federal law.


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## elite1msmith

zman9119;1115382 said:


> From the State of Illinois:
> 
> You need a Commercial Driver's License if you operate:
> 
> 
> Any combination of vehicles with a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more, providing the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
> Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more, or any such vehicle towing another not in excess of 10,000 pounds.
> Any vehicle, regardless of size, designed to transport 16 or more persons, including the driver.
> A vehicle required by federal regulations to be placarded while transporting hazardous materials.
> 
> http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/cdl/whoneeds_cdl.html


 so by this if i have a 25,999 truck and a 9,999 trailer im good with no CDL?


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## cretebaby

elite1msmith;1116560 said:


> so by this if i have a 25,999 truck and a 9,999 trailer im good with no CDL?


Yup.


PerfectEarth;1115885 said:


> Sorry about the incorrect "terminology" ..... yes, I have an air brake RESTRICTION.
> 
> I think you know what I meant.


So you didn't mean this?



PerfectEarth;1115830 said:


> there IS such a thing as an "Air Brake Endorsement"...






paponte;1115858 said:


> If you tow over 10k lbs, and your not recreational... YOU NEED A CLASS A


Sorry but this isn't true.



paponte;1115858 said:


> If your truck is over 26k... YOU NEED A CLASS B
> If your *COMBINATION *is over 26k, AND you tow over 10k... YOU NEED A CLASS A COMBINATION
> If your truck is over 26k AND it has air brakes... YOU MUST NOT HAVE AN AB RESTRICTION
> If your truck is over 10k AND is used COMMERCIALLY... YOU MUST HAVE DOT NUMBERS
> If YOU drive a vehicle that requires a CDL... YOU MUST ALSO HAVE A DOT PHYSICAL, AND CARRY THE CERTIFICATE ON YOUR PERSON WHILE OPERATING THE VEHICLE.
> 
> It's not about the he said/she said BS people, it's the LAW!


If you are required to have a USDOT number you need the physical as well.


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## tuney443

2 corrections---1.You only as of right now[the law is changing as of Jan. 1,2011],only need your medical card if you are running interstate,NOT intrastate.

2.The rules are dictated by FMCSA,not the states,although a state can make a rule more stringent than the Federal ones. Case in point---In Cali,any trailer thats got a GVWR of more than 10K lbs.,that's not a RV trailer,no matter how much the towing vehicle's GVWR is will require a CDL license to pull it.


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## lilweeds

In PA if it's over 10K you need a class A. Elite yes you would but it would only need to be a B. While it isn't the term you may use most drivers around here call it the air brake endorsement even though it is only lifting the restriction. Me I played it say and obtained my CDL so I can drive anything, but a haz mat, tanker, and doubles.


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## cretebaby

tuney443;1116647 said:


> 2 corrections---1.You only as of right now[the law is changing as of Jan. 1,2011],only need your medical card if you are running interstate,NOT intrastate.


Got any info or link to the change?

Right now this is a state by state thing for the med card. Some require it even for intrastate.


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## cretebaby

lilweeds;1116648 said:


> In PA if it's over 10K you need a class A


No not even in PA. PA goes by the Federal standard.

Here I loooked it up for you. it took 2 seconds.



> Commercial Driver's Licenses - Classes A, B or C
> 
> CLASS A (minimum age 18): A Class A license is issued to those persons 18 years of age or older who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, provided the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle or vehicles being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds. The holder of a Class A license is qualified to operate vehicles for which a Class B or Class C license is issued. Where required, appropriate endorsements must be obtained.
> 
> CLASS B (minimum age 18): A Class B license is issued to those persons 18 years of age or older who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more or any such vehicle towing a vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of not more than 10,000 pounds. The holder of a Class B license is qualified to operate vehicles for which a Class C license is issued. Where required, appropriate endorsements must be obtained.
> 
> CLASS C (minimum age 18): A Class C license is issued to those persons 18 years of age or older who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of not more than 26,000 pounds or any combination of vehicles, except combination vehicles involving motorcycles, that does not meet the definition of a Class A or Class B vehicle. Where required, appropriate endorsements must be obtained.


http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/driverLicensePhotoIDCenter/license_classes.shtml



lilweeds;1116648 said:


> Elite yes you would but it would only need to be a B.


It doesn't require a "B" or any other CDL

26k truck= No CDL
10k trailer= No CDL

26k truck + 10k trailer = No CDL


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## Matson Snow

This is the Problem with the CDL.......When they came up with this Grand idea...It was to Make it standard for every State...Same rules for every state...Well...The states put their grubby little hands on it and put their spin on things...And guess what..Its all F%$ked up....


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## cretebaby

Matson Snow;1116672 said:


> This is the Problem with the CDL.......When they came up with this Grand idea...It was to Make it standard for every State...Same rules for every state...Well...The states put their grubby little hands on it and put their spin on things...And guess what..Its all F%$ked up....


There is very little differnce between any states, except Commifornia of course.

What took you so long. lol


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## Matson Snow

Crete....I have a CDL A-T....Am i legal to pull my boat with my F-250......Keep up the good work...Its tough informing the Mis-informed...:salute:


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## cretebaby

Matson Snow;1116683 said:


> Crete....I have a CDL A-T....Am i legal to pull my boat with my F-250......Keep up the good work...Its tough informing the Mis-informed...:salute:


You should be good.


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## paponte

Thanks crete & township! If your having problems reading and didn't happen to comprehend the second line in my post, I can see why you guys have so many problems concerning a CDL license. You guys do what works for you, I know myself and my employees are covered and up to date with all the current DOT requirements. That's really all I could give two sh!ts about.

And just for your information, since I know you like to search the internet and READ alot, there is no more class C license. But I'm sure you already knew that, or else you'd look really st00pid posting about it!


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## cretebaby

paponte;1116692 said:


> Thanks crete & township! If your having problems reading and didn't happen to comprehend the second line in my post, I can see why you guys have so many problems concerning a CDL license. You guys do what works for you, I know myself and my employees are covered and up to date with all the current DOT requirements. That's really all I could give two sh!ts about.
> 
> And just for your information, since I know you like to search the internet and READ alot, there is no more class C license. But I'm sure you already knew that, or else you'd look really st00pid posting about it!


 Who you are talking to?

Really no class C? You may want to brush up on your info.


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## toptech72

The whole debate on what licence you need to drive this or tow that will never end. In Maryland the law is if you tow a commercail trailer over 10K you need a class A. For everyone that says it isnt so that is so nice for you. I have been issued the ticket for not having the correct license. As it was explained to me as i got the ticket it was issued to me because the trailer i was towing was registered for over 10K and registered commercail.

http://www.mva.maryland.gov/Driver-Services/Apply/licenseclass.htm


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## tuney443

cretebaby;1116656 said:


> Got any info or link to the change?
> 
> Right now this is a state by state thing for the med card. Some require it even for intrastate.


No,just that the DMV told me a few weeks ago that when I renew my CDL in April to bring my medical card with me.I asked why and then she told me it doesn't matter if you're inter or intrastate,you will need that card come 1/1/11 and she said other changes also will be coming for CDL drivers in NY.It was busy so I left it alone.


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## cretebaby

toptech72;1116929 said:


> In Maryland the law is if you tow a commercail trailer over 10K you need a class A.


Negative Ghostrider. :laughing:









http://www.mva.maryland.gov/Resources/DL-151.pdf


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## cretebaby

tuney443;1116976 said:


> No,just that the DMV told me a few weeks ago that when I renew my CDL in April to bring my medical card with me.I asked why and then she told me it doesn't matter if you're inter or intrastate,you will need that card come 1/1/11 and she said other changes also will be coming for CDL drivers in NY.It was busy so I left it alone.


It's been like that here for a while.


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## toptech72

Crete you can post every page you can find it doesnt mean a damn thing to me. I live in Md i was issued the ticket, i had my day in court. Both the issueing officer and i did the paper shuffle for the judge. After about an hour of listening to the officer and I argue over what the law say yes the judge dismissed the case. But he also said that Md laws for cdl is not clearly written. For every page that says you dont need it they have another page that says you do. So if you ever want to pull a commercail trailer over 10K down here let me know i will introduce you to the nice officer. Last time he and i talked he was doing a roadside inspection on 1 of our rollbacks that had under 1500 miles on it. The truck made me alot of money sitting on the side of the road for 3 hours. Maybe you dont get bothered alot where you are and thats nice for you. Last year a bunch of guys i know got pulled over in plow trucks so they could be checked for proper insurance. Hell my nephew was just pulled over for having airfresheners hanging from the rearview mirror. It an obstruction of view ticket with our local police department.


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## paponte

Good post toptech! Crete just has some growing up to do... I guess. You can do all the reading you like, bottom line is that most of it is wrong and not recently updated, and as stated not very clearly written. As I stated, myself and my company are up to date with the CDL laws. We work closely with the NYS troopers, as well as a commercial driving school as well. We will ave yearly DOT stop mock ups at the shop, and keep up to date with the new laws. Again, I am speaking for NYS but I can't see it being that much different state to state since, I do hold a class A interstate. There is no more class C license, you can read all the out dated literature you'd like. You do need a class A combination if you tow over 10k lbs. you do need DOT numbers if your gvw is over 10k, and that will be changing to every commercial vehicle soon enough. You do need a medical card if you driver a CDL vehicle.

You can listen to the boneheads on here all you want, but if you are in question I would go to your local CDL school, or even better your state trooper department.


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## blowerman

Agreed with Toptech, take a F350 and hook up a trailer over 10K and they'll give you a ticket. Doesn't seem like a lot of police know or want to hassle every truck pulling a skid trailer. 

How about this, everyone in the trades or construction; just get a CDL and I won't need to read this debate here and on lawnsite.


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## paponte

> How about this, everyone in the trades or construction; just get a CDL and I won't need to read this debate here and on lawnsite.


Amen! Put this [email protected] to sleep already!


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## cretebaby

paponte;1117159 said:


> Good post toptech! Crete just has some growing up to do... I guess. You can do all the reading you like, bottom line is that most of it is wrong and not recently updated, and as stated not very clearly written. As I stated, myself and my company are up to date with the CDL laws. We work closely with the NYS troopers, as well as a commercial driving school as well. We will ave yearly DOT stop mock ups at the shop, and keep up to date with the new laws. Again, I am speaking for NYS but I can't see it being that much different state to state since, I do hold a class A interstate. There is no more class C license, you can read all the out dated literature you'd like. You do need a class A combination if you tow over 10k lbs. you do need DOT numbers if your gvw is over 10k, and that will be changing to every commercial vehicle soon enough. You do need a medical card if you driver a CDL vehicle.
> 
> You can listen to the boneheads on here all you want, but if you are in question I would go to your local CDL school, or even better your state trooper department.


There is still a class C commercial license. NY got rid of the non commercial class C. NY even point blank says you can tow over 10k on the standard license.

Why don't you show us the most current and up to date law that says you need a CDL for a trailer over 10k? It should be real easy for you since you work so closely with the troopers and all. You guys all talk but can't put any pudding in your posts.

You guys must be a real bunch of push overs that just roll over that easy.


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## cretebaby

toptech72;1117094 said:


> Crete you can post every page you can find it doesnt mean a damn thing to me. I live in Md i was issued the ticket, i had my day in court. Both the issueing officer and i did the paper shuffle for the judge. After about an hour of listening to the officer and I argue over what the law say yes the judge dismissed the case. But he also said that Md laws for cdl is not clearly written. For every page that says you dont need it they have another page that says you do. So if you ever want to pull a commercail trailer over 10K down here let me know i will introduce you to the nice officer. Last time he and i talked he was doing a roadside inspection on 1 of our rollbacks that had under 1500 miles on it. The truck made me alot of money sitting on the side of the road for 3 hours. Maybe you dont get bothered alot where you are and thats nice for you. Last year a bunch of guys i know got pulled over in plow trucks so they could be checked for proper insurance. Hell my nephew was just pulled over for having airfresheners hanging from the rearview mirror. It an obstruction of view ticket with our local police department.


That is all fine. When you realize that it is all the same as the feds it makes it a lot easier. The problem is when people don't know the law.


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## LoneCowboy

Agree with Crete
And there's no such thing as an interstate license vs. a intrastate license.

There is such a thing as having authority to operate interstate vs. intrastate, but it doesn't have a damn thing to do with the CDL

Many of you are confusing having DOT #'s and authority to operate (M/C numbers and UCC numbers) vs. having a CDL.

and a CDL is the physical license to drive PLUS the medical card. Not having both means you don't have your license on you.


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## WIPensFan

blowerman;1117172 said:


> Agreed with Toptech, take a F350 and hook up a trailer over 10K and they'll give you a ticket. Doesn't seem like a lot of police know or want to hassle every truck pulling a skid trailer.
> 
> How about this, everyone in the trades or construction; just get a CDL and I won't need to read this debate here and on lawnsite.


What do you mean, "take a F350 and hook up a trailer over 10K and they'll give you a ticket." The combo has to be over 26,000 lbs.


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## lilweeds

Crete, don't see where I'm wrong there. In PA any trailer over 10000 lbs needs a class A. I drive bus and had this conversation with a state DOT officer, the ones that are schooled in this and was told that I must have one even if the tow vehicle is under 26k. Also was told that any combo over 26k also needs a class B. So just don't get stopped in PA if you ever come through.


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## WIPensFan

Just looked up WI rules reguarding this issue: 

Commercial driver licenses (CDL) are required to operate vehicles that:

Weigh over 26,000 pounds, determined by the highest of the following weights: 
manufacturer’s gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) 
manufacturer’s gross combination weight rating (GCWR) 
actual weight 
registered weight 
Carry hazardous materials that require placarding under federal law. 
Are designed or used to carry 16 or more persons including the driver. (Buses and some school buses.) 

Sooo... I did not realize that it's the highest value of the above weights. Meaning, if you have your truck registered for 12,000lbs and your trailer registered for 16,000lbs you're over 26,000lbs and you need CDL.

I think they threw that in recently for WI but I'm not sure.


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## tuney443

paponte;1117159 said:


> Good post toptech! Crete just has some growing up to do... I guess. You can do all the reading you like, bottom line is that most of it is wrong and not recently updated, and as stated not very clearly written. As I stated, myself and my company are up to date with the CDL laws. We work closely with the NYS troopers, as well as a commercial driving school as well. We will ave yearly DOT stop mock ups at the shop, and keep up to date with the new laws. Again, I am speaking for NYS but I can't see it being that much different state to state since, I do hold a class A interstate. There is no more class C license, you can read all the out dated literature you'd like. You do need a class A combination if you tow over 10k lbs. you do need DOT numbers if your gvw is over 10k, and that will be changing to every commercial vehicle soon enough. You do need a medical card if you driver a CDL vehicle.
> 
> You can listen to the boneheads on here all you want, but if you are in question I would go to your local CDL school, or even better your state trooper department.


You are completely incorrect on the Class C license.The following is the latest info from FMCSA,notice the 2012 reference a few paragraphs down from the Class A-C requirements.

Overview
Company Registration
Registration Overview
What is a HM Safety Permit?
What is a USDOT Number?
What is Operating Authority?
Registration Steps
What Forms Do I need?
Licensing & Insurance Requirements
New Company Requirements (New Entrant Program)
How to Register
Online Registration
Download Registration Forms
Find a Company's Status
By USDOT Number/Name
By Operating Authority
Driver Registration
Commercial Driver's License (CDL) Program

Commercial Driver's License Program (CDL/CDLIS)
Esta pagina en español Print 
BEFORE THE COMMERCIAL DRIVER'S LICENSE PROGRAM

It is widely recognized that driving certain commercial motor vehicles (CMVs) requires special skills and knowledge. Prior to implementation of the Commercial Driver's License (CDL) Program, in a number of States and the District of Columbia, any person licensed to drive an automobile could also legally drive a tractor-trailer or a bus. Even in many of the states that did have a classified licensing system, a person was not skills tested in a representative vehicle. As a result, many drivers were operating motor vehicles that they may not have been qualified to drive. In addition, many drivers were able to obtain driver's licenses from more than one State and hide or spread convictions among several driving records and continue to drive.

COMMERCIAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY ACT OF 1986

The Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1986 was signed into law on October 27, 1986. The goal of the Act is to improve highway safety by ensuring that drivers of large trucks and buses are qualified to operate those vehicles and to remove unsafe and unqualified drivers from the highways. The Act retained the State's right to issue a driver's license, but established minimum national standards which States must meet when issuing CDLs.

The Act addresses circumstances that existed prior to 1986 by:

making it illegal for CDL holders to possess more than one license;
requiring States to adopt knowledge and skills testing to ensure that individuals required to have a CDL are qualified to operate heavy trucks and buses
establishing minimum licensing standards and information requirements for the CDLs that States issue.
It is important to note that the Act does not require drivers to obtain a separate Federal license; it merely requires States to upgrade their existing testing and licensing programs, if necessary, to conform to the Federal minimum standards.
The CDL program places requirements on the CMV driver, the employing motor carrier, and the States.

THE DRIVER

Drivers have been required to have a CDL in order to drive certain CMVs since April 1, 1992.

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) has developed and issued standards for the testing and licensing of CDL holders. These standards require States to issue CDLs to certain CMV drivers only after the driver passes knowledge and skills tests, administered by the State and related to the type of vehicle the driver expects to operate. Drivers are required to obtain and hold a CDL if they operate in interstate, intrastate, or foreign commerce if they drive a vehicle that meets any of the classifications of a CMV described below.

Classes of License:

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GCWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is transporting material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR Part 172 or is transporting any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR Part 73.

Endorsements and Restrictions:

Drivers who operate special types of CMVs also need to pass additional tests to obtain any of the following endorsements on their CDL:

T - Double/Triple Trailers (Knowledge test only)
P - Passenger (Knowledge and Skills Tests)
N - Tank Vehicle (Knowledge Test only)
H - Hazardous Materials (Knowledge Test and TSA Threat Assessment)
X - Combination of Tank Vehicle and Hazardous Materials
S - School Bus (Knowledge and Skills Tests)
If a driver either fails the air brake component of the general knowledge test or performs the skills test in a vehicle not equipped with air brakes, the driver is issued an air brake restriction, restricting the driver from operating a CMV equipped with air brakes.
A driver must take the skills test in a motor vehicle which represents the type of motor vehicle that a driver applicant operates or expects to operate as defined by the vehicle classications described above. While these classifications are general for the class of vehicle, additional requirements exist for the passenger and school bus endorsements. To obtain a passenger endorsement, the driver must test in a passenger vehicle. To obtain a school bus endorsement, the driver must test in a passenger vehicle equipped with school bus features (lights, signs, etc). If a driver possesses a Class A CDL, but obtains his or her passenger or school bus endorsement in a Class B vehicle the State must place a M restriction indicating that the driver can only operate Class B and C passenger vehicle or school buses. If a driver possesses a Class B CDL, but obtains his or her passenger or school bus endorsement in a Class C vehicle, the State must place a N restriction indicating that the driver can only operate Class C passenger vehicle or school buses.

THE STATES

Certifications and Record checks:

When an individual applies for a CDL, or attempts to renew or update his or her CDL, the State must perform a check of its own database, the Commercial Driver's License Information System (CDLIS), and the National Driver Register (NDR), to ensure the driver is not disqualified and does not possess a license from more than one jurisdiction. If the driver possesses a license from another jurisdiction, the State must require the driver applicant to surrender his/her driver's license issued by that State before issuing a new license.

The State must request the complete driving record of the applicant from all jurisdictions where the driver was previously licensed in the past 10 years.

Beginning January 30, 2012, for each operator of a commercial motor vehicle required to have a commercial driver's license, the current licensing States must:

Require drivers to certify the type of operation the driver expects to conduct and post the driver's self-certification to the driver history record;
Retain the original or a copy of the medical certificate of any driver required to provide documentation of physical qualification for three years beyond the date the certificate was issued; and
Post the information from the medical examiner's certificate within 10 business days to the CDLIS driver record.
Within 10 calendar days of receiving information from FMCSA regarding issuance or renewal of a medical variance for a driver, the State must
update the CDLIS driver record to include the medical variance information provided by FMCSA.
Within 10 calendar days of the driver's medical certification status expiring or a medical variance expiring or being recinded, the State must:
Update the medical certification status of that driver as "not-certified."
Notify the CDL holder of his or her CDL "not-certified" medical certification status and that the CDL privilage will be removed from the driver license unless the driver submits a current medical certificate and/or medical variance, or changes his or her self-certification to driving only in excepted or intrastate commerce (if permitted by the State).
Initiate established State procedures for downgrading the license. The CDL downgrade must be completed and recorded within 60 days of the driver's medical certification status becoming "not-certified" to operate a CMV.


----------



## blowerman

Here it is WIPEN,

Direct from the WI Dot

Wisconsin has a classified licensing system. The classes are:

Class A CDL:

For operation of a commercial motor vehicle. Any combination of vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), actual weight, or registered weight over 26,000 pounds provided the GVWR, actual weight,* or* registered weight of the towed vehicle(s) is more than 10,000 pounds.

The best way to avoid this with a 1 ton sized truck is to get a 10k trailer. They work, but you beat them up faster pulling skids and mini-ex's. One could assume that's why most guys have 12K & 14K trailers, but then again; you need a CDL in WI to pull one..


----------



## tuney443

To those of you that are saying just get your CDL if you are either in doubt if you need one or whether you really do need one and are just rolling the dice hoping not to get caught because you think you're maybe a good ole boy in Rednecksville and there's only 1 Barney Fife in your town,I am in complete agreement.Been saying it here and on other forums forever.Not only is it NOT a big deal to get one and keep one,but the side benefit of having one can actually help you in a jam.What I'm referring to is when driving your pickup,a car,even the commercial vehicle and you get stopped for a moving violation and the officer sees you have a CDL and knows your livelihood depends on that license,he or she will often cut you some slack.It's happened to me at least 5 times--from speeding to weaving late at night because I was dead tired and shouldn't have been driving.


----------



## LoneCowboy

blowerman;1117333 said:


> Here it is WIPEN,
> 
> Direct from the WI Dot
> 
> Wisconsin has a classified licensing system. The classes are:
> 
> Class A CDL:
> 
> For operation of a commercial motor vehicle. Any combination of vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), actual weight, or registered weight over 26,000 pounds provided the GVWR, actual weight,* or* registered weight of the towed vehicle(s) is more than 10,000 pounds.
> 
> The best way to avoid this with a 1 ton sized truck is to get a 10k trailer. They work, but you beat them up faster pulling skids and mini-ex's. One could assume that's why most guys have 12K & 14K trailers, but then again; you need a CDL in WI to pull one..


reading is fundamental

any combo over 26k and the trailer is over 10k

so, a 10k pickup with a 16k trailer a CDL is NOT required.
but a 10k pickup with 20k trailer a CDL-A IS required.

a 25k truck with a 10k trailer a CDL is NOT required.

This is the same thing we've been saying throughout, and the FMCSA says the same thing.

reading, is fundamental


----------



## blowerman

I'm not trying to argue lone cowboy, but is clearly stated: OR... Truck weight isn't factored in if the trailer is over 10K. If it was a "and" then it would be trailer and truck. You live in WI as well, check the web site of call. 

But as we all are aware, just get a cdl... It'll be good for you!


----------



## paponte

Simply unbelievable, where to start... Crete why don't YOU show me in up to date writing where it clearly states you CAN tow over 10k without a class A.

Tuney, what you just posted is from 1992, get something up to date, say after 2005.

I don't have to prove sh!t to anyone, i really couldn't care less and you guys can get all the tickets you wish... God bless you all!


----------



## paponte

I think we should just all post pictures of all our "non- cdl, and cdl trucks"!


----------



## Scott13136

PerfectEarth;1115830 said:


> Geez, I have seen this argument all over lawnsite.... and I'm putting my two cents in again.
> 
> 1. It does not matter what you haul, how much you weigh loaded/unloaded, how your load is loaded, etc....DOT officers and troopers only care about GVWR and GCWR!!...the actual manufacturer's numbers.
> 
> 2. For a Class A, the rule is quite simple.... you need one if you GCWR (Combined weight) is over 26,000#.......PROVIDED (<------- the key word) that your trailer is over 10,000#
> 
> SO, like me- I drive an f550 at 19,000#.... I also have a dump trailer at 12,000#... This equals 31,000 GCWR, so I have my basic Class A, minus the air brake and tractor trailer endorsements. I can't drive those.
> 
> IF my trailer was an even 10,000# I WOULD NOT need a Class A CDL because, even though I am over the 26,000# magic number, my trailer at 10,000# keeps me good.
> 
> AND, there IS such a thing as an "Air Brake Endorsement"...I don't have one, and it's written on my license as "K- no air brake endorsement"
> 
> I also have "O- no tractor trailer"
> 
> The State/Fed rule for classes of CDL licensing is pretty straight forward, read this-
> 
> http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm


I got tagged by NYS dot and they only looked at the registered weight. They never looked at the factory spec. They tickited me for no DOT# because my 2500hd and trailer were over 10,001 on the registrations. The part that bugs me is I dont haul for hire, my trailer is just for tools and materials.


----------



## WIPensFan

WIPensFan;1117301 said:


> Just looked up WI rules reguarding this issue:
> 
> Commercial driver licenses (CDL) are required to operate vehicles that:
> 
> Weigh over 26,000 pounds, determined by the highest of the following weights:
> manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR)
> manufacturer's gross combination weight rating (GCWR)
> actual weight
> registered weight
> Carry hazardous materials that require placarding under federal law.
> Are designed or used to carry 16 or more persons including the driver. (Buses and some school buses.)
> 
> Sooo... I did not realize that it's the highest value of the above weights. Meaning, if you have your truck registered for 12,000lbs and your trailer registered for 16,000lbs you're over 26,000lbs and you need CDL.
> 
> I think they threw that in recently for WI but I'm not sure.


Read this again. "The HIGHEST OF THE FOLLOWING WEIGHTS"

My 1-ton dump( Registered for 12,000lbs) + Trailer( Registered for 12,000lbs) = 24,000lbs No CDL required

You have to do a combo weight of truck + trailer if the trailer is registered for 10,000lbs or more.

For WI.


----------



## Scott13136

tuney443;1117338 said:


> To those of you that are saying just get your CDL if you are either in doubt if you need one or whether you really do need one and are just rolling the dice hoping not to get caught because you think you're maybe a good ole boy in Rednecksville and there's only 1 Barney Fife in your town,I am in complete agreement.Been saying it here and on other forums forever.Not only is it NOT a big deal to get one and keep one,but the side benefit of having one can actually help you in a jam.What I'm referring to is when driving your pickup,a car,even the commercial vehicle and you get stopped for a moving violation and the officer sees you have a CDL and knows your livelihood depends on that license,he or she will often cut you some slack.It's happened to me at least 5 times--from speeding to weaving late at night because I was dead tired and shouldn't have been driving.


true that....been there.


----------



## LoneCowboy

blowerman;1117451 said:


> I'm not trying to argue lone cowboy, but is clearly stated: OR... Truck weight isn't factored in if the trailer is over 10K. If it was a "and" then it would be trailer and truck.!


You're not reading it correctly

26k truck with 10k trailer, no CDL needed
26k truck with 11k trailer, CDL needed
17k truck with 10k trailer, no CDL
16k truck with 11k trailer, CDL needed

same rules as the feds


----------



## Scott13136

LoneCowboy;1117523 said:


> You're not reading it correctly
> 
> 26k truck with 10k trailer, no CDL needed
> 26k truck with 11k trailer, CDL needed
> 17k truck with 10k trailer, no CDL
> 16k truck with 11k trailer, CDL needed
> 
> same rules as the feds


I guess I am not reading it right either. I was sure I read GCVW that is combined weight, right?


----------



## Scott13136

toptech72;1116929 said:


> The whole debate on what licence you need to drive this or tow that will never end. In Maryland the law is if you tow a commercail trailer over 10K you need a class A. For everyone that says it isnt so that is so nice for you. I have been issued the ticket for not having the correct license. As it was explained to me as i got the ticket it was issued to me because the trailer i was towing was registered for over 10K and registered commercail.
> 
> http://www.mva.maryland.gov/Driver-Services/Apply/licenseclass.htm


I did not even know there was a comercial trailer licence. I have 5 trailers registered in NY and as far as I know they are all registered the same.


----------



## Scott13136

blowerman;1117172 said:


> Agreed with Toptech, take a F350 and hook up a trailer over 10K and they'll give you a ticket. Doesn't seem like a lot of police know or want to hassle every truck pulling a skid trailer.
> 
> How about this, everyone in the trades or construction; just get a CDL and I won't need to read this debate here and on lawnsite.


A tickit for no DOT numbers yes, for no CDL I find hard to beleive unless you are over 26,001.


----------



## Scott13136

paponte;1117201 said:


> Amen! Put this [email protected] to sleep already!


I thought this is what the boards were for. To help people understand things. Just some have to make it unplesant.


----------



## clark lawn

paponte;1117480 said:


> Simply unbelievable, where to start... Crete why don't YOU show me in up to date writing where it clearly states you CAN tow over 10k without a class A.
> 
> Tuney, what you just posted is from 1992, get something up to date, say after 2005.
> 
> I don't have to prove sh!t to anyone, i really couldn't care less and you guys can get all the tickets you wish... God bless you all![/QUOTif you knew how to read the law you wouldnt need someone to show you something that dosent exist. its like asking to see a law that says it is legal to not speed. by your srgument i should have gotten a ticket today because i was going 50 in a 55.


----------



## Township1

paponte;1116692 said:


> Thanks crete & township! If your having problems reading and didn't happen to comprehend the second line in my post I can see why you guys have so many problems concerning a CDL license. , You guys do what works for you, I know myself and my employees are covered and up to date with all the current DOT requirements. That's really all I could give two sh!ts about.
> 
> And just for your information, since I know you like to search the internet and READ alot, there is no more class C license. But I'm sure you already knew that, or else you'd look really st00pid posting about it!


Thanks for the insult - have a few anger management issues? If you would have used your brain, you would have seen that my post was made to prove the point of the second line of your post, which you assume I could not read or comprehend.

Just so you understand it a little better.

I am employeed by a local municipality, under the Federal Regs I am exempt from CDL requirements to operate what would be classified as a CDL Vehicle. Additionally I am exempt under the Federal Regulations from holding a medical card.

HOWEVER - Pennsylvania has stricter standards which require the CDL, however continue to exempt the medical card.

The point being that in PA I fall under pa regulations and am required to hold a CDL but no medical card, outside of PA I fall under the federal standards and am not required to hold a CDL or a medical card.

Other states like PA require CDL's for municipal employees, and some don't. Some also require medical cards.

Just to clarify the point a little more, a little more direct - Every State has adopted stadards based on the Federal regulations.

And just a FYI - I do not have any problems with my CDL (Class A/M no restrictions, all endorsements except Haz-Mat).

Now that I am done with that, serious question, not busting - Where are you getting that there is no more class C license?


----------



## Township1

Township1;1117643 said:


> Now that I am done with that, serious question, not busting - Where are you getting that there is no more class C license?


Paponte

Ok - Since I like to read the internet so much and I don't want to look "stup00d" I see where you got this from.

Ny did away with the class C and has a class D.

FYI - Pa has no Class D, and still has a class C - Looks like the non-CDL class C NY got rid of covered some of the P & S endorsements PA has.

Hummmm - two states with totally different license structures - WOW...

I think you may need to listen to your own advise!!!!!


----------



## Philbilly2

blowerman;1117172 said:


> Agreed with Toptech, take a F350 and hook up a trailer over 10K and they'll give you a ticket. Doesn't seem like a lot of police know or want to hassle every truck pulling a skid trailer.
> 
> How about this, everyone in the trades or construction; just get a CDL and I won't need to read this debate here and on lawnsite.


Wish it was that easy. I had one until it was taken away from me after I got shot in the eye and lost all my vision in my left eye. They highlighted it for me somthing along the lines of you need 70% or better vision in both eyes to maintain a CDL. I fought the law and the law one on that one. All I have now is an A class farm.


----------



## paponte

NYS class C was originally intended to cover the class 18,001-26,000 vehicle class as 18,001 was originally considered commercial. Since they have upped the cdl requirement to 26,001 just like every other state, there is no longer a C class. You can drive up to 26k with a regular D license.

Again as I must state, this is for NYS, so my advise is just fine. But thanks for the pissing match, it was fun.

PS, the whole municipa law really has nothing to do with the question at hand. I appreciate the info on it, but it is really irrelevant.


----------



## cretebaby

lilweeds;1117288 said:


> Crete, don't see where I'm wrong there. In PA any trailer over 10000 lbs needs a class A. I drive bus and had this conversation with a state DOT officer, the ones that are schooled in this and was told that I must have one even if the tow vehicle is under 26k. Also was told that any combo over 26k also needs a class B. So just don't get stopped in PA if you ever come through.


Read the requirements I posted for you.

It says you you need a class A when the combo is over 26k PROVIDED the trailer is over 10k. No where does it say you need a CDL because the trailer is over 10k alone.

When the trailer is 10k or less it doesn't even enter into the equation, it is just like it isn't there. A class B is NOT a combo license it is for straight trucks alone.

PA requirements are the same as the FEDs and here is what the Feds have to say about it.

10k trailer:



> Question 2: Is a driver of a combination vehicle with a GCWR of less than 26,001 pounds required to obtain a CDL even if the trailer GVWR is more than 10,000 pounds?
> 
> Guidance: No, because the GCWR is less than 26,001 pounds. The driver would need a CDL if the vehicle is transporting HM requiring the vehicle to be placarded or if it is designed to transport 16 or more persons.


http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regu...mcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.91&guidence=Y

And Elite's example:



> Question 6: A driver operates a tractor of exactly 26,000 pounds GVWR, towing a trailer of exactly 10,000 pounds GVWR, for a GCWR of 36,000 pounds. HM and passengers are not involved. Is it a CMV and does the driver need a CDL?
> 
> Guidance: No to both questions. Although the vehicle has a GCWR of 36,000 pounds, it is not a CMV under any part of the definition of that term in §383.5, and a CDL is not federally required


http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regu...fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=383.5&guidence=Y


----------



## cretebaby

blowerman;1117333 said:


> Here it is WIPEN,
> 
> Direct from the WI Dot
> 
> Wisconsin has a classified licensing system. The classes are:
> 
> Class A CDL:
> 
> For operation of a commercial motor vehicle. Any combination of vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), actual weight, or registered weight over 26,000 pounds provided the GVWR, actual weight,* or* registered weight of the towed vehicle(s) is more than 10,000 pounds.
> 
> The best way to avoid this with a 1 ton sized truck is to get a 10k trailer. They work, but you beat them up faster pulling skids and mini-ex's. One could assume that's why most guys have 12K & 14K trailers, but then again; you need a CDL in WI to pull one..


 The key word is "provided".
This is from the WI book. Notice line 15.


----------



## cretebaby

LoneCowboy;1117414 said:


> reading is fundamental
> 
> reading, is fundamental


Ditto

Ditto.


----------



## Matson Snow

I bet ya some of the people in this thread rode the short bus to school........


----------



## cretebaby

paponte;1117480 said:


> Crete why don't YOU show me in up to date writing where it clearly states you CAN tow over 10k without a class A.


I am sure this won't be NEW enough for you. 



> A driver with a Class D license can now operate a passenger vehicle, a limited use automobile, or:
> 
> •A truck with a GVWR of 26,000 lbs. or less that* tows another vehicle that has a GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs.*, but the gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of the two vehicles together must be 26,000 lbs. or less.


http://www.nysdmv.com/ncdlc.htm

Your persistent claim that there is no class C really just shows your ignorance of the subject.

NY can NOT get rid of a class of CDL that is federally required.


----------



## Matson Snow

Matson Snow;1117782 said:


> I bet ya some of the people in this thread rode the short bus to school........


What CDL would the person need to drive that short Bus?????....


----------



## Township1

paponte;1117744 said:


> PS, the whole municipa law really has nothing to do with the question at hand. I appreciate the info on it, but it is really irrelevant.


Agree 100% - Only rebutting your statement (which was not relevent)-



paponte;1115858 said:


> If YOU drive a vehicle that requires a CDL... YOU MUST ALSO HAVE A DOT PHYSICAL, AND CARRY THE CERTIFICATE ON YOUR PERSON WHILE OPERATING THE VEHICLE.


Which is not true.

Remember you stated -



paponte;1115858 said:


> It's not about the he said/she said BS people, it's the LAW!


I was just pointing out the fact that your black and white statement was incorrect (BS ?)The fact is there is so many exceptions in the federal regulations, and so many differences in the state regulations to discuss this on a forum beyond a specific question in a specific area is almost pointless.



paponte;1117744 said:


> But thanks for the pissing match, it was fun.


Hey gotta do something till it snows.


----------



## cretebaby

Matson Snow;1117791 said:


> What CDL would the person need to drive that short Bus ?????....


CDL class C? :redbounce


----------



## Matson Snow

cretebaby;1117800 said:


> CDL class C? :redbounce


Thanks Crete......:waving:....Keep up the good work....BTW..Doe's salt hurt concrete..


----------



## cretebaby

Matson Snow;1117806 said:


> Thanks Crete......:waving:....Keep up the good work....BTW..Doe's salt hurt concrete..


See my Sig, only when it is hungry. :laughing:


----------



## Township1

cretebaby;1117800 said:


> CDL class C? :redbounce


but no medical card !

"EXCEPTIONS. Federal regulations identify some CMV operations that require a CDL, but not
a medical exam or a medical examiner's certificate. However, if you want to drive a CMV in
interstate commerce, you must pass the USDOT medical examination and receive a medical
examiner's certificate. You are exempt from needing a medical examiner's certificate if you:
 are a government employee at any level of government (federal, state, or local, including
school districts) driving government owned or leased CMVs in the course of official duties
(municipal operations).""

:yow!:


----------



## cretebaby

paponte;1117480 said:


> Tuney, what you just posted is from 1992, get something up to date, say after 2005.


Why don't you show us where it has changed since '92?


----------



## tuney443

paponte;1117480 said:


> Simply unbelievable, where to start... Crete why don't YOU show me in up to date writing where it clearly states you CAN tow over 10k without a class A.
> 
> Tuney, what you just posted is from 1992, get something up to date, say after 2005.
> 
> I don't have to prove sh!t to anyone, i really couldn't care less and you guys can get all the tickets you wish... God bless you all![/QUOTE
> 
> Gee--looks like while I was at the Bob Dylan concert last night,some of you boys weren't playing nice.
> 
> Paponte-if you cared to read a little more,you maybe wouldn't have to write such stupid,incorrect crap here.The posting I posted simply said that those CDL requirements have been in effect SINCE 1992----what I posted is CURRENT,partly proven by the fact[as I told you,but you obviously ignored it] that there is a mention of a requirement that's going to change in 2012. I'm going to try and make this as idiot-proof as possible just for you----Do you honestly think that regulations that were made in 1992 would have a reference to 2012????????
> 
> Class C does exist----Now either prove it doesn't or man up and admit you're wrong.


----------



## blowerman

This is brutal guys... I hope it snows soon so we can all give up typing as a fill in activity. 
I'm going back to my original idea, everyone in trades (construction) should just get a cdl.
Heading out to the shop to re-check snow equipment.


----------



## clark lawn

its simple black and white. the law says certain things and people are making up other things and trying to state it as fact. if all this was indeed a fact then they would be able to provide something to prove it. that is all we are asking for. 

Just because some super trooper wrote you for something doesnt always make it a fact, many of thenm dont know the laws that they try to enforce. we have shown, on many instances, that you do not need a CDL to pull a trailer over 10K as long as the GCWR is under 26001. just like the air brake thing as long as the GVWR is under 26,001 it can have air brakes and you DO NOT need a CDLthis has been proven over and over but people still want to argue it.


----------



## tuney443

Very well said.Just to add-there is NO WAY anyone,including police,DOT,lawyers and judges could know everything about commercial driving.You can and many times will get a different answer to the same question. That's why it has to be written down for us to understand and try to decipher all of it.


----------



## cretebaby

Is that crickets?


----------



## clark lawn

i think so


----------



## 2COR517

Sorry I'm late, what a great thread. Hee hee hee...

A few of my favorite posts so far.



toptech72;1117094 said:


> ... I live in Md i was issued the ticket, i had my day in court. Both the issueing officer and i did the paper shuffle for the judge. After about an hour of listening to the officer and I argue over what the law say yes the judge dismissed the case. But he also said that Md laws for cdl is not clearly written.


Is it more sad or scary that a judge cannot interpret a very simple law?



blowerman;1117172 said:


> Agreed with Toptech, take a F350 and hook up a trailer over 10K and they'll give you a ticket.


If they give they give you a ticket, they do not know the law.



paponte;1115858 said:


> .....
> If you tow over 10k lbs, and your not recreational... YOU NEED A CLASS A


Incorrect



paponte;1115858 said:


> .....It's not about the he said/she said BS people, it's the LAW!


Correct



toptech72;1116929 said:


> The whole debate on what licence you need to drive this or tow that will never end.* In Maryland the law is if you tow a commercail trailer over 10K you need a class A.* For everyone that says it isnt so that is so nice for you. I have been issued the ticket for not having the correct license. As it was explained to me as i got the ticket it was issued to me because the trailer i was towing was registered for over 10K and registered commercail.


Wrong. If you received a ticket, it was un-warranted.



paponte;1117159 said:


> .... As I stated, myself and my company are up to date with the CDL laws. *We work closely with the NYS troopers, as well as a commercial driving school as well. *We will ave yearly DOT stop mock ups at the shop, and keep up to date with the new laws. ....


The troopers don't know the laws, so they say you need Class A. Personally I think CMV enforcement should be left to the CMV Enforcement unit.

The schools stand to profit from training you, I doubt they will confess you don't need the CDL for a specific situation.



Matson Snow;1117782 said:


> I bet ya some of the people in this thread rode the short bus to school........





Matson Snow;1117791 said:


> What CDL would the person need to drive that short Bus?????....


Depends on the GVW. We run "real" buses for shorties up here. Over 26,000 - Class B. Under, Class C.


----------



## mullis56

Lots of BS going on here....So let me get this straight if I have a medical card I can drive and/or trailer up to 26,000 lbs without a CDL even if it has air brakes? What if it is a 1-ton with a 14k trailer only trailering 9k lbs?

lol!


----------



## cretebaby

2COR517;1119081 said:


> . We run "real" buses for shorties up here. .


That says it all right there. :laughing::waving:


----------



## cretebaby

mullis56;1119106 said:


> Lots of BS going on here....So let me get this straight if I have a medical card I can drive and/or trailer up to 26,000 lbs without a CDL even if it has air brakes? What if it is a 1-ton with a 14k trailer only trailering 9k lbs?
> 
> lol!


Yes.


----------



## marinablue66

This is according to FMCSA

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- *Any combination of vehicles with a GCWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.*
Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is transporting material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR Part 172 or is transporting any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR Part 73.

So Yes if you have a F350 or F450 add the GVWR of the truck to the GVWR to the trailer and if you are over 2600#'s and the trailer is over 10k you need a Class A. See http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm


----------



## WIPensFan

WHYYYYYY!!.....WHYYYYYYY....:crying:


----------



## paponte

Ok Crete, looks like you partially won on the class C... till I do a litle more research of course!

In NY there was BOTH a non CDL class C, and also a CDL class C... why I have no idea kind of st00pid if you ask me. As I stated in one of my previous posts the non CDL class C covered the class of 18,001 to 26k weight class, before NY lifted the CDL requirements to 26,001lbs. As far as the CDL class C, I have to do a little more research on that one, because to the best of my knowledge I can't think of anyone that even carries one. I will look into it more today, and get proper documentation on it.

Sorry I didn't post sooner for the critics, some of us do work you know.


----------



## paponte

> The troopers don't know the laws, so they say you need Class A. Personally I think CMV enforcement should be left to the CMV Enforcement unit.


Agreed 100%, and unfortunately you can go to DMV, state troopers, sheriffs dept., and various county departments and you will get ALL different interpretations from every one of them. It is really sad to see, but unfortunately it does happen. We had several tickets when they changed the cdl to 26,001 and changed the AB to a restriction from an endorsement from two different agencies we had to fight in court. These are just CDL requirements, then you get into DOT enforcement interpretations, and that's just another animal all together.


----------



## 2COR517

Class C CDL would typically be for someone driving a small "one ton" passenger/school bus. Or HazMat like explosives in a pickup truck.


----------



## blowerman

Assuming the cdl was a non issue(we all have one), why don't we have a tread on how to safely trailer loads, chain and secure what's on the trailer, how different weights effect stopping, connecting a trailer to the truck, checking and having working trailer brakes, etc. etc.? This way, someone can share their better way to chain a machine or advice on how trailer brakes work.
Now that we have a 5 plus page thread on cdl rules and a bunch of name calling.....


----------



## cretebaby

paponte;1119362 said:


> Ok Crete, looks like you partially won on the class C... till I do a litle more research of course!
> 
> In NY there was BOTH a non CDL class C, and also a CDL class C... why I have no idea kind of st00pid if you ask me. As I stated in one of my previous posts the non CDL class C covered the class of 18,001 to 26k weight class, before NY lifted the CDL requirements to 26,001lbs. As far as the CDL class C, I have to do a little more research on that one, because to the best of my knowledge I can't think of anyone that even carries one. I will look into it more today, and get proper documentation on it.
> 
> Sorry I didn't post sooner for the critics, some of us do work you know.


What about the 10k trailer thing? 



blowerman;1119372 said:


> Assuming the cdl was a non issue(we all have one), why don't we have a tread on how to safely trailer loads, chain and secure what's on the trailer, how different weights effect stopping, connecting a trailer to the truck, checking and having working trailer brakes, etc. etc.? This way, someone can share their better way to chain a machine or advice on how trailer brakes work.
> Now that we have a 5 plus page thread on cdl rules and a bunch of name calling.....


Who was calling names? I thought this thread stayed pretty civil.

I was thinking we should organize some mass reading lessons.


----------



## cretebaby

WIPensFan;1119243 said:


> WHYYYYYY!!.....WHYYYYYYY....:crying:


Why ask why?xysport


----------



## LoneCowboy

blowerman;1119372 said:


> Assuming the cdl was a non issue(we all have one), why don't we have a tread on how to safely trailer loads, chain and secure what's on the trailer,


ok
under 10,000lbs equipment/vehicle being hauled, min: 2 chains, net working weight of chains and binders must equal at least half the weight of the equipment. Lowest NWW rating of either chain, binder or hooks is the rating used (weakest link in the chain).
over 10,000lbs min: 4 chains, NWW same rule

The equipment cannot move in any direction and hydraulics alone are not enough to keep extensions/booms/loader arms from moving, they must be locked in place mechanically or chained down. extensions/booms/arms/buckets must lie flat on a surface (they cannot be up in the air unless pinned in place mechanically)

(I use chains, but you could use straps, but straps must be protected from chafing.)

You have to pull over and check the chains in the first 25 miles/30 minutes and every 150 miles after that.

Crete, did I miss anything?

there, how hard was that?

remember, you started it.


----------



## Jerryjks

*Cdl101nys 07/10*

http://www.nysdmv.com/forms/cdl101.pdf Hope this link works! Good luck.


----------



## blowerman

Lone cowboy, that's what I'm talking about!!!


----------



## clark lawn

Jerryjks;1119451 said:


> http://www.nysdmv.com/forms/cdl101.pdf Hope this link works! Good luck.


Jerry Thank you! you just proved our point for the new york guys that argue that you need a CDL to tow over 10K.


----------



## cretebaby

LoneCowboy;1119444 said:


> ok
> under 10,000lbs equipment/vehicle being hauled, min: 2 chains, net working weight of chains and binders must equal at least half the weight of the equipment. Lowest NWW rating of either chain, binder or hooks is the rating used (weakest link in the chain).
> over 10,000lbs min: 4 chains, NWW same rule
> 
> The equipment cannot move in any direction and hydraulics alone are not enough to keep extensions/booms/loader arms from moving, they must be locked in place mechanically or chained down. extensions/booms/arms/buckets must lie flat on a surface (they cannot be up in the air unless pinned in place mechanically)
> 
> (I use chains, but you could use straps, but straps must be protected from chafing.)
> 
> You have to pull over and check the chains in the first 25 miles/30 minutes and every 150 miles after that.
> 
> Crete, did I miss anything?
> 
> there, how hard was that?
> 
> remember, you started it.


I think you got it LC.


----------



## cretebaby

Jerryjks;1119451 said:


> http://www.nysdmv.com/forms/cdl101.pdf Hope this link works! Good luck.


Talk about making your one post a year count. :salute:


----------



## tuney443

paponte;1119362 said:


> Ok Crete, looks like you partially won on the class C... till I do a litle more research of course!
> 
> In NY there was BOTH a non CDL class C, and also a CDL class C... why I have no idea kind of st00pid if you ask me. As I stated in one of my previous posts the non CDL class C covered the class of 18,001 to 26k weight class, before NY lifted the CDL requirements to 26,001lbs. As far as the CDL class C, I have to do a little more research on that one, because to the best of my knowledge I can't think of anyone that even carries one. I will look into it more today, and get proper documentation on it.
> 
> Sorry I didn't post sooner for the critics, some of us do work you know.


I already sent you any and all documentation from the FMCSA on this,there is no higher authority,and once again,it is current.You are confusing yourself with this Class C from ancient rules that were in force in NY ages ago.It was not non-CDL,but CDL,to the best of my memory.


----------



## cretebaby

lilweeds;1117288 said:


> Crete, don't see where I'm wrong there. In PA any trailer over 10000 lbs needs a class A. I drive bus and had this conversation with a state DOT officer, the ones that are schooled in this and was told that I must have one even if the tow vehicle is under 26k. Also was told that any combo over 26k also needs a class B. So just don't get stopped in PA if you ever come through.


Oh ya......

Even_ if_ this was true for PA they couldn't enforce it on me as an out of state driver. I would only have to abide by the federal standard.


----------



## toptech72

Ok so here is the state of Marylands MVA response to the letter I sent asking about the license required to tow a 10K commercailly registered trailer with a 1 ton pick up;

Dear MVA Customer,

Thank you for your recent email inquiry. The answer to your question is as
follows.

With the combination of the vehicle weight and the trailer weight indicated
in your email, you would be required to have a Maryland Class A commercial
driver's license.

If you have any additional questions concerning the requirement of a
commercial driver's license, you may contact our Commercial Driver's License
Division at 410-424-3011.

We hope this information will assist you.

A0016

Maryland MVA Customer Service Center

Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of the information in this
e-mail. Please note this is the most current information we have at this
time.

The information contained in this communication (including any attachments)
may be confidential and legally privileged. This email may not serve as a
contractual agreement unless explicit written agreement for this purpose has
been made. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication, or
any of its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender,
indicating that it was received in error, and delete the original message
and any copy of it from your computer system.

*********** REPLY PARTITION ***********
From: L.C.T.R SERVICES We do it all <[email protected]>
To: MVA CS <[email protected]>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 23:42:02 -0500
Subject: MVA0000337805 License requirement

I have recently purchased a equipment trailer for my business.
The trailer will be registered as commercail for 10000 pounds and i will be
pulling it with my 1 ton pick up that that has a registered weight of 10000 pounds.
After talking with a DOT officer at a weight station at the Hatem Bridge I was
told that I would be required to have a class A CDL to be legal. He directed
me to this link
http://www.mva.maryland.gov/Driver-Services/Apply/licenseclass.htm. From
looking at the chart in the link it does show that a class A would be
required to legally drive this combination since the trailer is commercail
and registered at 10000 pounds or more. I told the officer that i was told that
the federal guidelines showed that since the towing vehicle was under 26000
pounds that i was not required to have a class A license. He explained to me
that all states used the federal guidelines as a starting point and that
each state could adopt stricter requirements if they wanted. He told me that
Maryland adopted stricter requirements that required the class A CDL for anybody using any vehicle to pull any commercail trailer with a registered
weigth of over 10000 pounds. I am just writing this letter to make sure that
this is true.


----------



## wizardsr

toptech72;1120996 said:


> Ok so here is the state of Marylands MVA response to the letter I sent asking about the license required to tow a 10K commercailly registered trailer with a 1 ton pick up;
> 
> Dear MVA Customer,
> 
> Thank you for your recent email inquiry. The answer to your question is as
> follows.
> 
> With the combination of the vehicle weight and the trailer weight indicated
> in your email, you would be required to have a Maryland Class A commercial
> driver's license.
> 
> If you have any additional questions concerning the requirement of a
> commercial driver's license, you may contact our Commercial Driver's License
> Division at 410-424-3011.
> 
> We hope this information will assist you.
> 
> A0016
> 
> Maryland MVA Customer Service Center
> 
> Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of the information in this
> e-mail. Please note this is the most current information we have at this
> time.
> 
> The information contained in this communication (including any attachments)
> may be confidential and legally privileged. This email may not serve as a
> contractual agreement unless explicit written agreement for this purpose has
> been made. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication, or
> any of its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
> communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender,
> indicating that it was received in error, and delete the original message
> and any copy of it from your computer system.
> 
> *********** REPLY PARTITION ***********
> From: L.C.T.R SERVICES We do it all <[email protected]>
> To: MVA CS <[email protected]>
> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 23:42:02 -0500
> Subject: MVA0000337805 License requirement
> 
> I have recently purchased a equipment trailer for my business.
> The trailer will be registered as commercail for 10000 pounds and i will be
> pulling it with my 1 ton pick up that that has a registered weight of 10000 pounds.
> After talking with a DOT officer at a weight station at the Hatem Bridge I was
> told that I would be required to have a class A CDL to be legal. He directed
> me to this link
> http://www.mva.maryland.gov/Driver-Services/Apply/licenseclass.htm. From
> looking at the chart in the link it does show that a class A would be
> required to legally drive this combination since the trailer is commercail
> and registered at 10000 pounds or more. I told the officer that i was told that
> the federal guidelines showed that since the towing vehicle was under 26000
> pounds that i was not required to have a class A license. He explained to me
> that all states used the federal guidelines as a starting point and that
> each state could adopt stricter requirements if they wanted. He told me that
> Maryland adopted stricter requirements that required the class A CDL for anybody using any vehicle to pull any commercail trailer with a registered
> weigth of over 10000 pounds. I am just writing this letter to make sure that
> this is true.


Does Class A driving school include spelling lessons?


----------



## cretebaby

toptech72;1116929 said:


> In Maryland the law is if you tow a commercail trailer over 10K you need a class A.


This is your original statement.

But this is what you ask the MVA



toptech72;1120996 said:


> I have recently purchased a equipment trailer for my business.
> The trailer will be registered as commercail for 10000 pounds and i will be
> pulling it with my 1 ton pick up that that has a registered weight of 10000 pounds.


Which one is it, over 10k or 10k even? Big difference.



wizardsr;1121006 said:


> Does Class A driving school include spelling lessons?


I guess not.


----------



## toptech72

Sorry about spelling mistakes really dont pay much attention since i have been living off of pain meds for the past coulpe weeks. And after just having neck surgery this morning i could really care less about spelling mistakes


----------



## toptech72

Crete when i sent the e-mail to the mva I stated 10000 pounds because i thought the reply i would get back would tell me that I would not need a class A for trailer. I was hoping the letter would state that a class A would only be required if the trailer weight was over 10 k , but thats not the reply i got. As you can see they stated that a class A would be required in the example i gave. If you want to know why they said a class A would be required call them the numbr is in their response.


----------



## clark lawn

toptech going by your chart they could say i need a class a to pull a 4x8 utility trailer behind a ford ranger. all it says is and combo and any trailer.


----------



## cretebaby

toptech72;1121071 said:


> Crete when i sent the e-mail to the mva I stated 10000 pounds because i thought the reply i would get back would tell me that I would not need a class A for trailer. I was hoping the letter would state that a class A would only be required if the trailer weight was over 10 k , but thats not the reply i got. As you can see they stated that a class A would be required in the example i gave. If you want to know why they said a class A would be required call them the numbr is in their response.


So in other words we should included the fellas at the MVA in our group reading lessons.


----------



## blowerman

Are we going to shoot a dead horse? This is a forum, not spelling class. Otherwise we could rip apart most posts daily. 
I checked with a WI dot/officer yesterday and he told me the same for the state of WI. Trailers over 10K require a cdl with combination. As far as air brake under 26K, he stated "most cops wouldn't know what to look for." However, since air brake is a endorsement item, a cdl with air endorsement would be needed.


----------



## cretebaby

blowerman;1121224 said:


> Are we going to shoot a dead horse? This is a forum, not spelling class. Otherwise we could rip apart most posts daily.
> I checked with a WI dot/officer yesterday and he told me the same for the state of WI. Trailers over 10K require a cdl with combination. As far as air brake under 26K, he stated "most cops wouldn't know what to look for." However, since air brake is a endorsement item, a cdl with air endorsement would be needed.


What was his name? Does he even know what it is?


----------



## 2COR517

What's the letter for an Air Brake Endorsement?


----------



## clark lawn

blowerman;1121224 said:


> Are we going to shoot a dead horse? This is a forum, not spelling class. Otherwise we could rip apart most posts daily.
> I checked with a WI dot/officer yesterday and he told me the same for the state of WI. Trailers over 10K require a cdl with combination. As far as air brake under 26K, he stated "most cops wouldn't know what to look for." However, since air brake is a endorsement item, a cdl with air endorsement would be needed.


well that tells me he doesnt know what he is talking about because there is NO air brake endorsment.


----------



## cretebaby

We could start a new thread on showing how stupid and/or ignorant our troopers and DMV's are.


----------



## clark lawn

i dont think there is enough room in the internet for that dicussion


----------



## blowerman

clark lawn;1121231 said:


> well that tells me he doesnt know what he is talking about because there is NO air brake endorsment.


Gee, maybe the terms changed. Maybe it is called what(?) a restriction? You still need to take a written & road test to operate vehicles with air brakes. 
BTW, do you guys even have your cdl's? 
And the Dot guy is one of the most knowledgable (he can be one big jerk) when it comes to trucks.


----------



## WIPensFan

blowerman;1121224 said:


> Are we going to shoot a dead horse? This is a forum, not spelling class. Otherwise we could rip apart most posts daily.
> I checked with a WI dot/officer yesterday and he told me the same for the state of WI. Trailers over 10K require a cdl with combination. As far as air brake under 26K, he stated "most cops wouldn't know what to look for." However, since air brake is a endorsement item, a cdl with air endorsement would be needed.


Blowerman, just to clarify: he is stating that if the trailer is 10000lbs or more, a CDL is required no matter the weight of the tow vehicle? That is wrong if so. The table Crete posted is right, and exactly how I understand the laws.


----------



## cretebaby

blowerman;1121427 said:


> You still need to take a written & road test to operate vehicles with air brakes.


Unless it is under CDL.


----------



## clark lawn

blowerman;1121427 said:


> Gee, maybe the terms changed. Maybe it is called what(?) a restriction? You still need to take a written & road test to operate vehicles with air brakes.
> BTW, do you guys even have your cdl's?
> And the Dot guy is one of the most knowledgable (he can be one big jerk) when it comes to trucks.


i have had a class A witheverything except hazmat since 1994. ( had hazmat till all the new rules came about)

as for your DOT guy he can tell you anything he wants that dont make it right. the law say the combo has to be over 26K and the trailer over 10K.


----------



## Mackman

lol this is funny stuff.

Im happy i got my Class A so i dont have to worry about this dumb **** lol


----------



## cretebaby

Mackman;1121789 said:


> lol this is funny stuff.
> 
> Im happy i got my Class A so i dont have to worry about this dumb **** lol


Absolutely nothing useful to add as usual.


----------



## Matson Snow

cretebaby;1121815 said:


> Absolutely nothing useful to add as usual.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:.....


----------



## Mackman

cretebaby;1121815 said:


> Absolutely nothing useful to add as usual.


If you say so big shot.


----------



## DaytonBioLawns

Can I help make this a little easier guys?

Let's just say that we are discussing FEDERAL Department of transportation requirements. Considering it is different from state to state, and most states are trying to convert to the new Fed compliance in order to get money from the federal government. Ohio, for example, is moving to the federal standards, which is slightly different from the old ODOT law. If we discuss federal compliance, you will be compliant with your state too (more than likely).

People get really caught up in the details. If you want to discuss the DOT regulations in details you need to discuss the U.S. DOT standards, rather than state standards. All federal DOT standards for interstate travel will soon enough be conveyed to intrastate vehicles (state and local regulations). So why not just get it over with and federally comply? That means...well, basically that all states will have the same regulations on highway travel. Anything else is more so PUCO discussions on regs than it is DOT. Closely related but not the same.


----------



## cretebaby

DaytonBioLawns;1121923 said:


> Can I help make this a little easier guys?
> 
> Let's just say that we are discussing FEDERAL Department of transportation requirements. Considering it is different from state to state, and most states are trying to convert to the new Fed compliance in order to get money from the federal government. Ohio, for example, is moving to the federal standards, which is slightly different from the old ODOT law. If we discuss federal compliance, you will be compliant with your state too (more than likely).
> 
> People get really caught up in the details. If you want to discuss the DOT regulations in details you need to discuss the U.S. DOT standards, rather than state standards. All federal DOT standards for interstate travel will soon enough be conveyed to intrastate vehicles (state and local regulations). So why not just get it over with and federally comply? That means...well, basically that all states will have the same regulations on highway travel. Anything else is more so PUCO discussions on regs than it is DOT. Closely related but not the same.


Every state discussed in this thread are using the federal standard for CDLs.


----------



## blowerman

Mackman;1121789 said:


> lol this is funny stuff.
> 
> Im happy i got my Class A so i dont have to worry about this dumb **** lol


I just figured we could pass time until the snow flies debating cdl stuff with crete and the boys.... And when it snows the topic will end. Besides, when you wake up today, who checks: "painting old plow"? No, you look at the cdl thread.


----------



## 2COR517

blowerman;1122066 said:


> .... Besides, when you wake up today, who checks: "painting old plow"? No, you look at the cdl thread.


:laughing::laughing:

My wife and daughter want to know what I'm laughing about. That one just might make it to the sig line

:laughing::laughing:


----------



## jomama45

blowerman;1122066 said:


> I just figured we could pass time until the snow flies debating cdl stuff with crete and the boys.... And when it snows the topic will end.* Besides, when you wake up today, who checks: "painting old plow"? No, you look at the cdl thread*.


Although I don't agree with all (most) of your thoughts in this thread, I can't argue that one....................... :laughing:


----------



## clark lawn

like we have said before post a link to something to prove what you are saying not just this guy told this guy who told me. Crete and i have backed up what we say but all those who argue still havent shown me anything to prove their point.


----------



## the new boss 92

so riddle this then with out everyone jumping down my throat, if my truck is under 10k and the trailer im towing is registered for 14k i need a class A?


----------



## WIPensFan

the new boss 92;1123061 said:


> so riddle this then with out everyone jumping down my throat, if my truck is under 10k and the trailer im towing is registered for 14k i need a class A?


No, you don't need CDL. Combo is under 26,001lbs.


----------



## buddy4781

I'm not going to worry about the CDL stuff until I'm stopped by ODOT then, I'll plead stupid. So if some of you would please be concerned about it for me, I would greatly appreciate it.


----------



## tuney443

buddy4781;1126468 said:


> I'm not going to worry about the CDL stuff until I'm stopped by ODOT then, I'll plead stupid. So if some of you would please be concerned about it for me, I would greatly appreciate it.


Many things that I do,I go by one of my favorite sayings that it is easier to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.Not having a CDL and driving a rig that requires it is no laughing matter with the DOT.I haven't met a single DOT officer yet that even has a hint of having a sense of humor.I'm quite sure they won't appreciate your stupidity arguement.


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## buddy4781

tuney 443- you're right, but in Ohio I have never seen ODOT have a plow truck pulled over. Rumors are that we are going to be targeted this year starting in January. If I am out of compliance thats ok but I need to know what is expected from me. I'm sure that there will be a grace period for compliance after we are notified. Until then I'm not going to be concerned about it. I work within a few mile radius and have nice equipment that is maintaned well. I don't drive a rig, I drive a pickup with a plow and salt spreader so I don't see the problem. Thanks for your concern


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## tuney443

buddy4781;1126485 said:


> tuney 443- you're right, but in Ohio I have never seen ODOT have a plow truck pulled over. Rumors are that we are going to be targeted this year starting in January. If I am out of compliance thats ok but I need to know what is expected from me. I'm sure that there will be a grace period for compliance after we are notified. Until then I'm not going to be concerned about it. I work within a few mile radius and have nice equipment that is maintaned well. I don't drive a rig, I drive a pickup with a plow and salt spreader so I don't see the problem. Thanks for your concern


Well--I couldn't tell what you drive because there's nothing in your signature.You might want to put it there so members can better help you in the future.You'll be fine with not having a CDL with your pickup. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but if you're over 10,000 lbs GVW,you will need DOT stickers. Not a big deal---just apply and they will give you your # and then just buy 2'' letters and numbers for each side of your truck.Even a pickup can be a ''rig''.


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## buddy4781

Thanks for the input. With the bobcat and push box behind me I'm well over the CGVW. as for equipment 05 F-150 w/snowsport plow and spreader, Bobcat 763 w/8' pusher. I'm small, will end up with 8 accounts and salt for guys that don't. Plan to keep it that way.


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## 2COR517

Are you towing the Bobcat with the F-150? While the plow and spreader are on?


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## buddy4781

Yepper Doodle you can do most anything with a Ford! The plow is a Snowsport and only weighs 250 lb, spreader is riding along on the trailer with Bob. I put a Superchip in the 05 F-150 and set it up in tow mode. This keeps the power band where it needs to be to haul heavy loads. Does quit well as long as you have trailer brakes, no trailer brakes and your going to meet your maker the first time someone pulls out in front of you.


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## clark lawn

buddy4781;1126485 said:


> tuney 443- you're right, but in Ohio I have never seen ODOT have a plow truck pulled over. Rumors are that we are going to be targeted this year starting in January. If I am out of compliance thats ok but I need to know what is expected from me. I'm sure that there will be a grace period for compliance after we are notified. Until then I'm not going to be concerned about it. I work within a few mile radius and have nice equipment that is maintaned well. I don't drive a rig, I drive a pickup with a plow and salt spreader so I don't see the problem. Thanks for your concern


we are in the "grace" period right now. startin 1-1-11 the fines and red tags will start. your combo is well over 10K so it all applies to you. As for towing the bobcat with an F150 the DOT would love that, im sure you are WELL overweight with that combo.

DOT has been setting up checkpoints all over around here and nailing everubody that drives by, warnings only right now.


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## buddy4781

clark lawn;1126679 said:


> we are in the "grace" period right now. startin 1-1-11 the fines and red tags will start. your combo is well over 10K so it all applies to you. As for towing the bobcat with an F150 the DOT would love that, im sure you are WELL overweight with that combo.
> 
> DOT has been setting up checkpoints all over around here and nailing everubody that drives by, warnings only right now.


I'm surprised that ODOT hasn't stopped me yet. I have driven by then out on 70 and they don't respond. I've had loads of fence that are well over limit for my truck and still nothing. I've been living by grace alright just hope to experience mercy when stopped. The Bobcat will only be used at 2 accounts and moved on back roads. As for using the F-150, breaks are the biggest issue then trans. the same 5.4 is used in superduties and the F-150 can tow 10K with the right setup.


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## clark lawn

just sayin..... 

some of the new laws are an OOS violation. your truck and trailer will sit on the side of the road till they are corrected. depending what they are some of them you CANNOT do yourself you will have to have a certified vendor do the work and that could cost $$$$ in repairs plus downtime and fines.


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## buddy4781

sounds like I need to make a visit to DOT inspection station. Thanks guy for your help. I'm hoping to be able to push this year. I just came down with congestive heart issues over the past few weeks. found someone to keep the salter loaded. I'm hoping that I can handle the cold on the bobcat.


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## Crash935

buddy4781;1126468 said:


> I'm not going to worry about the CDL stuff until I'm stopped by ODOT then, I'll plead stupid. So if some of you would please be concerned about it for me, I would greatly appreciate it.


Pleading stupidity will only cost you more in the long run. With the new CSA points system you could be looking at anything from a license review, increase in insurance, insurance cancelled, dot numbers pulled along with any fines that they feel your entitled too.


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## Mackman

Crash935;1126903 said:


> Pleading stupidity will only cost you more in the long run. With the new CSA points system you could be looking at anything from a license review, increase in insurance, insurance cancelled, dot numbers pulled along with any fines that they feel your entitled too.


Alot of these guys dont have a clue on CSA 2010. I bet they are looking it up now lol


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## DaytonBioLawns

I thought that ODOT/PUCO delayed the launch of the new laws until 2012?! Look into it guys... I saw someone mention it... and I'm pretty sure the 1/1/11 crackdown is being pushed to the 1/1/12 crackdown... I think someone on here had the article on it.

And yes... in Ohio it has been 10,001 pounds + for DOT I.D. #'s for a long time. Really easy to get... Just apply... get the number and put it on in at least 2" lettering on your lower door or rocker area and you will never have to mess with it. You will need truck tags also... and if you require inspection you will need an fire ext. and some triangles... and emergency stuff... (first aid, jacks)... even if your don't wanna be compliant some of it is just smart to have. I keep first aid on my personal vehicle... and jacks.... and jumpers... and a tow rope. So why not just get the easy stuff and go get inspected... They will leave you alone if you aren't a driving cash cow or endangering the public.

Look into the launch date. I think they moved it back for us Ohio guys. But it is coming to a state near all of you. They are printing Obama money and handing it out to every politician who can get us REAL WORKERS to bend over for the gov't. (I'm sure someone will have something to say about how I'm wrong... but just wait and see... the states will follow the FED MONEY..)


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## clark lawn

DaytonBioLawns;1127011 said:


> I thought that ODOT/PUCO delayed the launch of the new laws until 2012?! Look into it guys... I saw someone mention it... and I'm pretty sure the 1/1/11 crackdown is being pushed to the 1/1/12 crackdown... I think someone on here had the article on it.
> 
> And yes... in Ohio it has been 10,001 pounds + for DOT I.D. #'s for a long time. Really easy to get... Just apply... get the number and put it on in at least 2" lettering on your lower door or rocker area and you will never have to mess with it. You will need truck tags also... and if you require inspection you will need an fire ext. and some triangles... and emergency stuff... (first aid, jacks)... even if your don't wanna be compliant some of it is just smart to have. I keep first aid on my personal vehicle... and jacks.... and jumpers... and a tow rope. So why not just get the easy stuff and go get inspected... They will leave you alone if you aren't a driving cash cow or endangering the public.
> 
> Look into the launch date. I think they moved it back for us Ohio guys. But it is coming to a state near all of you. They are printing Obama money and handing it out to every politician who can get us REAL WORKERS to bend over for the gov't. (I'm sure someone will have something to say about how I'm wrong... but just wait and see... the states will follow the FED MONEY..)


you only need DOT#s if you cross state lines in you are a private haul company.


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## buddy4781

Called ODOT in Sidney, OH. this morning and they know nothing about plow trucks needing and DOT #s. Plow down, salter on and making money...as soon as we get an event..


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## cretebaby

buddy4781;1127611 said:


> Called ODOT in Sidney, OH. this morning and they know nothing about plow trucks needing and DOT #s. Plow down, salter on and making money...as soon as we get an event..


Tell that to the judge. LOL


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## buddy4781

cretebaby;1127622 said:


> Tell that to the judge. LOL


You're still upset over that loss to The Buckeyes last week aren't you!


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## cretebaby

buddy4781;1127669 said:


> You're still upset over that loss to The Buckeyes last week aren't you!


Not in the least.


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## tuney443

buddy4781;1127611 said:


> Called ODOT in Sidney, OH. this morning and they know nothing about plow trucks needing and DOT #s. Plow down, salter on and making money...as soon as we get an event..


Well,if you sort of worded it that way,mentioning just as a plow truck,you will get lots of different answers.You can and will get different answers even if you ask the correctly spelled out question.You are dealing with our gov't.,remember?If your registered GVW of your truck is 10K lbs.or more,you need to be DOT compliant,unless you are trucking for personal/recreational purposes.Plowing/salting is business and I'm quite sure you must be way over that weight so you do need #'s.Painless-just do it.


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## buddy4781

tuney443;1127736 said:


> Well,if you sort of worded it that way,mentioning just as a plow truck,you will get lots of different answers.You can and will get different answers even if you ask the correctly spelled out question.You are dealing with our gov't.,remember?If your registered GVW of your truck is 10K lbs.or more,you need to be DOT compliant,unless you are trucking for personal/recreational purposes.Plowing/salting is business and I'm quite sure you must be way over that weight so you do need #'s.Painless-just do it.


ReLaX Guys, I'm under 10K GVW, I don't have an issue getting "the #", Ohio is just slow getting to plow guys. If I don't drop some wieght myself I may need to have my own zip code though. Thanks for Y'all's concern. I certainly need mentors and the plowsite is full of experienced folks to guide the inexperienced. This has been enjoyable, thanks for the entertainment!


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## cretebaby

buddy4781;1127752 said:


> ReLaX Guys, I'm under 10K GVW,


Not when you tow the trailer.


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## buddy4781

shhhh...what trailer? Yes Dear, you are right AGAIN!


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## clark lawn

ONCE AGAIN you do NOT need DOT#'s if you do not cross state lines. we are a "not for hire" hauler.


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## buddy4781

Good luck getting that messege over to those boys in Iowa and New York!


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## Crash935

clark lawn;1127960 said:


> ONCE AGAIN you do NOT need DOT#'s if you do not cross state lines. we are a "not for hire" hauler.


You may not need a fed # but you might need a state #.

this will tell you if you need a fed dot #, really easy to figure out, if you live in a green state on the map then you need one

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/registration-USDOT.htm


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## clark lawn

WE DO NOT NEED THEM IF WE DO NOT CROSS STATE LINES. this is directly from the publication provided by both the DOT and PUCO.


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## cretebaby

clark lawn;1128155 said:


> WE DO NOT NEED THEM IF WE DO NOT CROSS STATE LINES. this is directly from the publication provided by both the DOT and PUCO.


I agree. I do find it odd however.


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## kc2006

Went to a meeting on all the new laws, and it's still in effect for 1/1/11. The push back is something a couple politicians are trying for, but it won't happen, theres already countless states doing it, and the FED told ohio either start enforcing it or we're cutting funding.

And as clark keeps saying, dot numbers are only if your 26k in state, or 10k across state lines. According to the dot officer at the meeting I went to, only thing required with new laws even is company name visible 50' away on both sides. No city of origin, phone number, any kind of numbers unless needed like dot numbers where applicable. 

DONE. Now you all can sleep at night.


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## cretebaby

kc2006;1128182 said:


> Went to a meeting on all the new laws, and it's still in effect for 1/1/11. The push back is something a couple politicians are trying for, but it won't happen, theres already countless states doing it, and the FED told ohio either start enforcing it or we're cutting funding.
> 
> And as clark keeps saying, dot numbers are only if your 26k in state, or 10k across state lines. According to the dot officer at the meeting I went to, only thing required with new laws even is company name visible 50' away on both sides. No city of origin, phone number, any kind of numbers unless needed like dot numbers where applicable.
> 
> DONE. Now you all can sleep at night.





> Fines will not be assessed on roadside safety inspections until January 1, 2012, unless egregious violations are discovered. However, vehicles and drivers found not to be in compliance can be declared out-of-service.


http://www.puco.ohio.gov/PUCO/Consumer/Information.cfm?id=10148


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## buddy4781

crash935;1128128 said:


> you may not need a fed # but you might need a state #.
> 
> This will tell you if you need a fed dot #, really easy to figure out, if you live in a green state on the map then you need one
> 
> http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/registration-usdot.htm


go buckeyes!!!!!!!!


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## tuney443

Well,to those who think they don't need to be DOT compliant: 

What is a USDOT Number?
Print 
Companies that operate commercial vehicles transporting passengers or hauling cargo in interstate commerce must be registered with the FMCSA and must have a USDOT Number. Also, commercial intrastate hazardous materials carriers who haul quantities requiring a safety permit must register for a USDOT Number. The USDOT Number serves as a unique identifier when collecting and monitoring a company's safety information acquired during audits, compliance reviews, crash investigations, and inspections.

New-Entrant Program
All first-time carrier applicants for a USDOT Number will be automatically enrolled in the FMCSA New Entrant Safety Assurance Program. This program requires new entrants to pass a safety audit and maintain acceptable roadside safety performance over an initial 18-month period before they are given permanent registration status. In most cases, companies operating exclusively as brokers or non-vehicle-operating shippers or freight forwarders do not need to obtain a USDOT Number.

Some States Require USDOT Numbers
In select states (see green highlighted states or list below), all registrants of commercial motor vehicles, even intrastate and non-Motor Carrier registrants, are required to obtain a USDOT Number as a necessary condition for commercial vehicle registration.



Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New York, Nebraska, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.


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## Crash935

clark lawn;1128155 said:


> WE DO NOT NEED THEM IF WE DO NOT CROSS STATE LINES. this is directly from the publication provided by both the DOT and PUCO.


Really, this is from ODOT's site,

"Trucking & Commercial Motor Carrier Info

Issues regarding commercial motor carrier vehicles, DOT and ICC registration numbers, safety issues, and hazardous materials, are administered at the federal level by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA) division of the U.S. Department of Transportation (US DOT) and at a state level by the Public Utilities Commission of Ohio (PUCO)'s Transportation Department. Please consult the FMCSA and PUCO links below for more information and assistance with motor carrier/trucking related matters."

Now go back and read the link i posted or what tuney posted and tell me where it says you dont need a number.


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## DaytonBioLawns

*just do it...*

ey ey eyyyyyyhhhhh people... man
:laughing:

Let's all just go out and buy commercial tags and 2" lettering and put USDOT numbers on just to be safe. It costs very little, and state troopers will see that you have it and not even care to look at you. PUCO will leave you alone.... EVEN if you do have some violations, they aren't going to stop you unless it is obviously dangerous to others.

The DOT # helps you blend and look like the perfect motor carrier in the state. It helps you keep up on new laws, and in the FMCSA they are going to get you everything you need to know in the future for running your big fleet that everyone talks about running in here. If you have to gripe and moan about it for a truck, or two, or three.... Well then maybe you should be working for someone who can manage things like Federal compliance papers and state registration. It is all part of the game, that as ethical business leaders we must follow.

Get the number. Do it just in case. It takes very little time and protects you that much more from the government's all powerful mighty hand. Trust me, if they want anything from you, they will find a way to take it. SO GET THE NUMBER! as nike says... JUST DO IT


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## tuney443

Well that was certainly entertaining.


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## clark lawn

tuney and crash, keep reading further down to where it states that intrastate not for hire OVER 26,000#.
I have the book produced by ODOT right in front of me right now.


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## tuney443

My clip was the bottom of the page clark.You'll have to give us the link you're referring to.


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## Crash935

Yup it says "Not for hire", meaning you only use your trucks for your own business. "For Hire" means use use your trucks and sell your services to other companys for a profit. So if you only use your plow and mowing equipment to service sites that you own then you are not for hire, if you service any properties that someone else pays you for then you are for hire.


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## clark lawn

crash that is not the deffenition of for hire/ not for hire. NOT FOR HIRE- you only haul property that you own, mowers, plows, equipment.
FOR HIRE- you haul other peoples property. example, you haul from a manufacturer to a warehouse or a warehouse to a retail shop.

you deffinition is the difference between commercial and non comercial status.


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## buddy4781

and to think I missed all this fun by going hunting this morning. Think I'll watch Ohio beat michigan then head back to the woods.


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## buddy4781

Clark, Crash is from michigan, he is distracted today by the whoop'n michigan is about to take, give him a break.


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## WIPensFan

You guys are pretty excited about finishing 2nd or 3rd in the Big Ten.


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## clark lawn

buddy4781;1128649 said:


> Clark, Crash is from michigan, he is distracted today by the whoop'n michigan is about to take, give him a break.


true dat!!!! :crying::crying:


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## tuney443

I thought by now we would have the link to all this by now.That clip I posted from the FMCSA on DOT filing seems pretty ironclad to me and it is current.


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## dirtybird

LoneCowboy;1117414 said:


> reading is fundamental
> 
> any combo over 26k and the trailer is over 10k
> 
> so, a 10k pickup with a 16k trailer a CDL is NOT required.
> but a 10k pickup with 20k trailer a CDL-A IS required.
> 
> a 25k truck with a 10k trailer a CDL is NOT required.
> 
> This is the same thing we've been saying throughout, and the FMCSA says the same thing.
> 
> reading, is fundamental


Exactly, we go through this all the time. Basically the people enforcing the laws can't read. Our company trucks are registered in MD, MA DOT constantly tries to write tickets for imaginary violations, and we go to court and they get thrown out. They know what they are doing but, 90% of people will mail the payment in. They are thieves.


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## Mstrfxit12

With all this talk in this topic maybe you guys can shed some light on a topic. With the following scenario what would be required. If you can show links to official regualtions that would be great.
1 Rental Box truck
2. With air brakes
3. 26,000 lbs
4. Not for hire. Delivering goods between two company owned facilities.
5. Operating in Massachusetts only. 

I have seached MA. DOT's website and pretty much anything else I could find. My main question is on the Medical Card and whether MA specifcally requires it for Intrastate. If they dont require it, do you have to somehow prove that you are only using it intrastate.


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## clark lawn

26,000 and less no CDL. if under 26K doesnt matter if you have air brakes. Probably need a medical card. if this is a short term lease(under 30 days) then you run under the leasing comapnies #'s if its a long term lease( over 30 days) then you have to have signage showing it is leased to your company and show your DOT #'s. they would have to show that you were using for interstate. catch you coming across state lines.


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## clark lawn

[/URL]


Mstrfxit12;1129753 said:


> With all this talk in this topic maybe you guys can shed some light on a topic. With the following scenario what would be required. If you can show links to official regualtions that would be great.
> 1 Rental Box truck
> 2. With air brakes
> 3. 26,000 lbs
> 4. Not for hire. Delivering goods between two company owned facilities.
> 5. Operating in Massachusetts only.
> 
> I have seached MA. DOT's website and pretty much anything else I could find. My main question is on the Medical Card and whether MA specifcally requires it for Intrastate. If they dont require it, do you have to somehow prove that you are only using it intrastate.


http://www.mass.gov/rmv/license/8cdl.htm

sorry forgot the link


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## tuney443

What ever happened to the DOT link Clark?


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## cretebaby

WIPensFan;1128658 said:


> You guys are pretty excited about finishing 2nd or 3rd in the Big Ten.


Hee Hee Hee.


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## buddy4781

Where did I see Iowa in the BCS rating, Ap poll, USA Today rating,ESPN Power Rating? Oh, I DIDN'T! As far as The Big Ten a shared tile, we'll take it.


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## cretebaby

buddy4781;1130918 said:


> Where did I see Iowa in the BCS rating, Ap poll, USA Today rating,ESPN Power Rating? Oh, I DIDN'T!


Dang right.


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## clark lawn

tuney443;1130541 said:


> What ever happened to the DOT link Clark?


what DOT link?


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## 2COR517

cretebaby;1130854 said:


> Hee Hee Hee.


Hey, that's my line.....


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## tuney443

clark lawn;1131129 said:


> what DOT link?


Guess you weren't following the bouncing ball.Check on posts 170,171,and 178 to refresh your memory.


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## clark lawn

read post 173, it explains it all. no need for a link.


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## tuney443

clark lawn;1131573 said:


> read post 173, it explains it all. no need for a link.


It really explains nothing,just you talking about for hire or not.Just asking where you are getting this from.The FMCSA link that I posted says nothing of what you are referring to.


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## buddy4781

OK boys that's enough! Go to your rooms until they are clean1


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## clark lawn

http://www.puco.ohio.gov/PUCO/Consumer/Information.cfm?id=10148

5th paragraph, just as i said if you dont cross state lines you dont need a DOT#


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## tuney443

clark lawn;1131679 said:


> http://www.puco.ohio.gov/PUCO/Consumer/Information.cfm?id=10148
> 
> 5th paragraph, just as i said if you dont cross state lines you dont need a DOT#


OK,from that link it does appear you are right as long as you're at 26K or below.Makes no sense to me though in that it contradicts the FMCSA link that I posted that is usually the gospel.


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## Luther

buddy4781;1130918 said:


> As far as The Big Ten a shared tile, we'll take it.


Seeing that you lost to Wisconsin, while MSU won against Wisconsin.....you should consider yourself lucky with a share.


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## buddy4781

No excuses, we played bad against Wisconsin. After that lack of proformance, yes I glad to get a shared title.


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## Luther

Wow! I'm somewhat shocked......

A non-venomous, reasonable Buckeye!  

Here's to the good year you had too sir....they certainly deserved it.


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## clark lawn

tuney443;1131717 said:


> OK,from that link it does appear you are right as long as you're at 26K or below.Makes no sense to me though in that it contradicts the FMCSA link that I posted that is usually the gospel.


that only applies to private not for hire trucks. for hire follows FMCSA.


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