# Snow melter info



## delcosnow1 (Feb 11, 2016)

I want to get so input about a snow melter. I have a client that has asked me about one for a few years to help clear 3 large parking garages. There are also 5 more garages available to service if I had the machine. My question is basically is it worth it? Pro/ con. I also thought about building a unit. I have a most of what I think would be needed to build it 20 yard dumpster, engine trailer frame, etc. I would just need the burner/ boiler itself.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

You better be bringing a lot of money if you want to buy a melter.
Here's a used one 
http://www.snowandicemgmt.com/snow-dragon-for-sale


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

And a deep wallet to pay for the fuel.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

And a spare if you buy a Snow Dragon...


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

and customers wanting to pay the big bucks!


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## absolutely (Dec 9, 2010)

9,000,000 btu and up to 30 tons of snow per hour. That doesn't sound very impressive.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Better buy a fuel semi fleet to keep up with its fuel consumption.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

absolutely said:


> 9,000,000 btu and up to 30 tons of snow per hour. That doesn't sound very impressive.


A certain member bought one and never got more than half the rated melting capacity.

Better oof with one of the other brand melters.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Probably why they're selling one with only 10 hours.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

9 MMBTUh would be able to melt about 30 tons of snow per hour, but IFF (IF and only iF) the process were perfectly efficient (no heat loss from sides, top, bottom). It takes 288,000 BTU to melt 1 ton of water. I doubt you would ever get this. It's not surprising the efficiency is lower than stated. 

If this is a simple atmospheric burner (not forced combustion) then the efficiency is at best 80%, and you would be looking at an 11.25 MMBTUh input, or about 602 lb of diesel per hour, using the Lower Heating Value (non-condensing). At 6.93 lb/gal, this works out to about 90 gallons per hour, so $270 per hour in fuel, or about $9 per ton melted. If it can only reach half rated capacity then it is $18 per ton. I don't know how this compares to trucking the snow out, but it would have to be a lot cheaper to make the capital investment worth it.

I suppose if the design were sophisticated, you wouldn't have to completely melt the snow, just form a big slushie. I'd hate to think what a more efficient one cost if the Snow Dragon is $250K new.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> 9 MMBTUh would be able to melt about 30 tons of snow per hour, but IFF (IF and only iF) the process were perfectly efficient (no heat loss from sides, top, bottom). It takes 288,000 BTU to melt 1 ton of water. I doubt you would ever get this. It's not surprising the efficiency is lower than stated.
> 
> If this is a simple atmospheric burner (not forced combustion) then the efficiency is at best 80%, and you would be looking at an 11.25 MMBTUh input, or about 602 lb of diesel per hour, using the Lower Heating Value (non-condensing). At 6.93 lb/gal, this works out to about 90 gallons per hour, so $270 per hour in fuel, or about $9 per ton melted. If it can only reach half rated capacity then it is $18 per ton. I don't know how this compares to trucking the snow out, but it would have to be a lot cheaper to make the capital investment worth it.
> 
> I suppose if the design were sophisticated, you wouldn't have to completely melt the snow, just form a big slushie. I'd hate to think what a more efficient one cost if the Snow Dragon is $250K new.


I was going to post the same thing, but since you did....never mind. lol


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Aerospace Eng said:


> 9 MMBTUh would be able to melt about 30 tons of snow per hour, but IFF (IF and only iF) the process were perfectly efficient (no heat loss from sides, top, bottom). It takes 288,000 BTU to melt 1 ton of water. I doubt you would ever get this. It's not surprising the efficiency is lower than stated.
> 
> If this is a simple atmospheric burner (not forced combustion) then the efficiency is at best 80%, and you would be looking at an 11.25 MMBTUh input, or about 602 lb of diesel per hour, using the Lower Heating Value (non-condensing). At 6.93 lb/gal, this works out to about 90 gallons per hour, so $270 per hour in fuel, or about $9 per ton melted. If it can only reach half rated capacity then it is $18 per ton. I don't know how this compares to trucking the snow out, but it would have to be a lot cheaper to make the capital investment worth it.
> 
> I suppose if the design were sophisticated, you wouldn't have to completely melt the snow, just form a big slushie. I'd hate to think what a more efficient one cost if the Snow Dragon is $250K new.


And the math prevails...again...


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

9 MMBTUh would be able to melt about 30 tons of snow per hour, but IFF (IF and only iF) the process were perfectly efficient (no heat loss from sides, top, bottom). It takes 288,000 BTU to melt 1 ton of water. I doubt you would ever get this. It's not surprising the efficiency is lower than stated. 

If this is a simple atmospheric burner (not forced combustion) then the efficiency is at best 80%, and you would be looking at an 11.25 MMBTUh input, or about 602 lb of diesel per hour, using the Lower Heating Value (non-condensing). At 6.93 lb/gal, this works out to about 90 gallons per hour, so $270 per hour in fuel, or about $9 per ton melted. If it can only reach half rated capacity then it is $18 per ton. I don't know how this compares to trucking the snow out, but it would have to be a lot cheaper to make the capital investment worth it.

I suppose if the design were sophisticated, you wouldn't have to completely melt the snow, just form a big slushie. I'd hate to think what a more efficient one cost if the Snow Dragon is $250K new.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Can we just say it's not cost effective and there is a reason you don't see many of them....Maybe if they mounted Jagoof lights on them and slap a Boss sticker on it they would sell more units


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Defcon 5 said:


> Can we just say it's not cost effective and there is a reason you don't see many of them....Maybe if they mounted Jagoof lights on them and slap a Boss sticker on it they would sell more units


Where's the water go, if no storm drain? Just seems like a big city toy.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Defcon 5 said:


> Can we just say it's not cost effective and there is a reason you don't see many of them....Maybe if they mounted Jagoof lights on them and slap a Boss sticker on it they would sell more units


Maybe Boss should make a Quickmelt Cube...move them around with a fleet of skid steers.

The boss slappys would be on that like flies on ****.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Maybe Boss should make a Quickmelt Cube...move them around with a fleet of skid steers.
> 
> The boss slappys would be on that like flies on ****.


Not a bad idea....


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Randall Ave said:


> Where's the water go, if no storm drain? Just seems like a big city toy.


IMHO it absolutely is a big city toy, as a storm drain is needed. The OP doesn't say where he is based, but if you have parking garages where the cost per space is $10 per hour or $40 per day and typically full, it could make sense as an alternative to trucking, depending on the trucking cost. You aren't going to get a tri-axle up to the roof of a typical garage. I don't think you could get a dumpster up either, but if you had a small but powerful melter, were in a high snow area, and serviced multiple garages, it could make money.

The OP wanted to make their own, so pointing out likely operational costs would help in that decision. Other issues would be compliance with the Clean Water Act of 1972 and/or any other environmental regulations. He may need to design in screens, filters, oil water separators, etc.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Defcon 5 said:


> Not a bad idea....


Maybe I could convince boss to build it for me and then I could have my own animated video and useless product created "just for me"


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> IMHO it absolutely is a big city toy, as a storm drain is needed. The OP doesn't say where he is based, but if you have parking garages where the cost per space is $10 per hour or $40 per day and typically full, it could make sense as an alternative to trucking, depending on the trucking cost. You aren't going to get a tri-axle up to the roof of a typical garage. I don't think you could get a dumpster up either, but if you had a small but powerful melter, were in a high snow area, and serviced multiple garages, it could make money.
> 
> The OP wanted to make their own, so pointing out likely operational costs would help in that decision. Other issues would be compliance with the Clean Water Act of 1972 and/or any other environmental regulations. He may need to design in screens, filters, oil water separators, etc.


Thanks Sheldon.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

JustJeff said:


> Thanks Sheldon.


The fluttering you hear is this joke going over my head. 

I have no idea as to the reference.

I can recite Monty Python's "The Holy Grail" or the Bugs Bunny Cartoon "What's Opera Doc" verbatim, but am blissfully unaware of current pop culture.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JustJeff said:


> Thanks Sheldon.


LMAO


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> but am blissfully unaware of current pop culture.


I'm not completely unaware, but quite a bit. I'll hear a name on the news or whatever and ask Who? Apparently it's some singer\reality star\whatever.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I guess I live in a vacuum, cause it went over my head.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

"Sheldon" is the lead character on "the Big Bang Theory". A bunch of geek (no insult intended) scientists that state things that go over many people's heads.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> 9 MMBTUh would be able to melt about 30 tons of snow per hour, but IFF (IF and only iF) the process were perfectly efficient (no heat loss from sides, top, bottom). It takes 288,000 BTU to melt 1 ton of water. I doubt you would ever get this. It's not surprising the efficiency is lower than stated.
> 
> If this is a simple atmospheric burner (not forced combustion) then the efficiency is at best 80%, and you would be looking at an 11.25 MMBTUh input, or about 602 lb of diesel per hour, using the Lower Heating Value (non-condensing). At 6.93 lb/gal, this works out to about 90 gallons per hour, so $270 per hour in fuel, or about $9 per ton melted. If it can only reach half rated capacity then it is $18 per ton. I don't know how this compares to trucking the snow out, but it would have to be a lot cheaper to make the capital investment worth it.
> 
> I suppose if the design were sophisticated, you wouldn't have to completely melt the snow, just form a big slushie. I'd hate to think what a more efficient one cost if the Snow Dragon is $250K new.


I keep chuckling to myself aboot this.

In say 5 minutes or so, one engineer just blew the inventor of snow's idea right oot of the snowbank with numbers. The inventor of snow should have hired aerospace to design a snowmelter for him. Or maybe the inventor does know and continued to pawn his snake oil...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

They use snow melters in NYC, But there not privately owned. The tax payers makes that investment and are City owned.


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## delcosnow1 (Feb 11, 2016)

There is an extreme expense we all can agree on that. The main reason the client is asking about it. I explained to them the cost are extreme, now the parking decks vary from 8-12 floors, yes an mentioned height is the biggest issue and they are tight going up and down especially with a trailer. currently we are using dump trailers pulled by either small trucks or skidsteers with hitches an weights in the bucket. ( not very efficient). Dumping off the side is only available on 1 site an of course the smallest of the 3. It is an hourly charge an the hours are high each an every storm. They also want 5 more done


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

delcosnow1 said:


> There is an extreme expense we all can agree on that. The main reason the client is asking about it. I explained to them the cost are extreme, now the parking decks vary from 8-12 floors, yes an mentioned height is the biggest issue and they are tight going up and down especially with a trailer. currently we are using dump trailers pulled by either small trucks or skidsteers with hitches an weights in the bucket. ( not very efficient). Dumping off the side is only available on 1 site an of course the smallest of the 3. It is an hourly charge an the hours are high each an every storm. They also want 5 more done


Don't ever ask a client why they want to spend the way they do. Just help them do it.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I would certainly think it would be more cost effective to put a construction debris chute up and dump snow into it and let it fall into waiting trucks.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

delcosnow1 said:


> There is an extreme expense we all can agree on that. The main reason the client is asking about it. I explained to them the cost are extreme, now the parking decks vary from 8-12 floors, yes an mentioned height is the biggest issue and they are tight going up and down especially with a trailer. currently we are using dump trailers pulled by either small trucks or skidsteers with hitches an weights in the bucket. ( not very efficient). Dumping off the side is only available on 1 site an of course the smallest of the 3. It is an hourly charge an the hours are high each an every storm. They also want 5 more done


Areo posted the numbers above, If your cost just reached extreme compare melter numbers with your numbers now. With the other 5 added it may be doable. If I purchase the melter I would want 5yr or maybe more contract.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

It really doesn't matter what the cost to operate it the melter is, as long as the OP recovers it and profits from it. This isn't a new concept by any means and it sounds like he is on the right track, as long as he buys the correct melter with production numbers that match expectations.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

It sounds like the upper decks need to be hauled away every storm. So what is your current cost per ton? 

Does it make financial sense to melt it?

If you were going to build your own, could you (and would it make more sense) to have a melting tank at each place and then just have a boiler and pump on a trailer that you connected to each tank as needed? What is the 95% volume you see from a single storm?

Could you occupy 1 -3 spaces over a roof drain for the winter?

How quickly would you need to melt the snow? (a few days? a few hours?)

Where is the location, and how close are you to freezing? If you are close to freezing, could you just dump snow in a black painted tank, close the lid and wait a few days for the sun to do its thing?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The biggest issues with ramps is the weight load and stacking it a few spots. Some are designed for that, but most aren't and that is why they want the snow piles removed regularly. Spread the snow oot and the engineers are fine, start piling it in corners and they start getting nervous. Especially on older ones that might not be in great shape.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> The biggest issues with ramps is the weight load and stacking it a few spots. Some are designed for that, but most aren't and that is why they want the snow piles removed regularly. Spread the snow oot and the engineers are fine, start piling it in corners and they start getting nervous. Especially on older ones that might not be in great shape.


I poured concrete and built a lot of ramps in parking garages. On a hot humid day the Portland burns can be a PITA . Not to mention parking in them. I never moved snow in one but would be interesting to try. Sounds like a challenge.

The closets one is 30 miles away, I think they will be out of my line of expertise. LOL


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## delcosnow1 (Feb 11, 2016)

I'm wondering if it is financially a good idea. We basically remove all snow from the deck, we have blowers run along the walls skids with boxes pushing it to one area and a skids loading trailers. They want the snow cleared once the snow stops. They want it out as fast an safe as possible. Yea I get a lot of hours moving it off the deck an it's hourly account but it's very slow, time consuming and there is a lot of liability just getting it down to the ground. I really don't think a melter is going to save them money, all the units that size wise will fit in the garage can not melt much, so it's still going to take a lot of time, man power FUEl, and the cost of the equipment. Not to mention an permits that might be needed. I also was wondering can the storm drains in the deck, can they handle that amount of water?? If not now hoses would be needed to go off the side 12 floors down.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

What are they doing with the snow now??....Also have limited experience with deck snow removal at the major Airport in this area...Snow used to be pushed to designated areas...After the storm..The Snow was dumped from designated areas over the side to the ground below..8 storys...Bombs away...Then snow was hauled from there...


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I used to plow a Comcast station (cable provider here in Chicago). It was only three levels, but we pushed it into all the corners, and it stayed there until Spring. It wasn't a heavily used parking lot, so the loss of space wasn't an issue. The weight apparently wasn't an issue with Comcast either.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JustJeff said:


> I used to plow a Comcast station (cable provider here in Chicago). It was only three levels, but we pushed it into all the corners, and it stayed there until Spring. It wasn't a heavily used parking lot, so the loss of space wasn't an issue. The weight apparently wasn't an issue with Comcast either.


It was more than likely properly designed then.

The one we are doing is on it's last legs...several areas are restricted for parking cars. They have less than 2 years to build the new one because this one will be condemned. Makes one feel good about plowing it.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> It was more than likely properly designed then.
> 
> The one we are doing is on it's last legs...several areas are restricted for parking cars. They have less than 2 years to build the new one because this one will be condemned. Makes one feel good about plowing it.


If it's bad enough they're threatening to condemn it, I think they should probably just do so instead of talking about it...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Makes one feel good about plowing it.


 Yes I can see how that would cross your mind.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

what about multiple applications of liquid deicer? let it melt in place


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

leolkfrm said:


> what about multiple applications of liquid deicer? let it melt in place


No


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> No


Little short, No? I'm in no position to comment because lack of performing a parking garage but want to see where it goes. Why No??


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

leolkfrm said:


> what about multiple applications of liquid deicer? let it melt in place


Park a tanker up there and just open the valve?

Not happening.

Besides, no difference between granular and liquid de-icer. Granular becomes liquid.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I'm positive I saw a you tube about an elevated parking area. Skid steer and a dump truck. The dump truck broke through the floor. Darn gravity.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

delcosnow1 said:


> I'm wondering if it is financially a good idea. We basically remove all snow from the deck, we have blowers run along the walls skids with boxes pushing it to one area and a skids loading trailers. They want the snow cleared once the snow stops. They want it out as fast an safe as possible. Yea I get a lot of hours moving it off the deck an it's hourly account but it's very slow, time consuming and there is a lot of liability just getting it down to the ground. I really don't think a melter is going to save them money, all the units that size wise will fit in the garage can not melt much, so it's still going to take a lot of time, man power FUEl, and the cost of the equipment. Not to mention an permits that might be needed. I also was wondering can the storm drains in the deck, can they handle that amount of water?? If not now hoses would be needed to go off the side 12 floors down.


Drains are typically designed to take a 100 year hourly rate of rain. I don't know what your area is, but here that is about 1.4 inches per hour.

Take the area of the roof (ft^2), multiply by the hourly rate of rain (in/hr divided by 12), divide by the number of drains that it flows into, assuming they are equally sized, and that gives you cubic feet per hour. Multiply by 62.4 lb/cubic foot, and divide by 2000 to give you tons of water per hour into a drain. My gut feel is that there is no way to melt water fast enough to overwhelm a drain. While under construction at my hangar, I had a single downspout 3"x4" draining half the roof, so 31'x130'. Even when thunderstorms came by and you couldn't see 10 feet outside, the gutter never overflowed.

As you can probably tell, I am a great believer in math. SO...

How many tons have you had to move from a single parking garage in your worst storm?
What was your cost in $/ton? This should include not just the $$ you pay the trucks, but any rental of dumpsters, your hourly rate for the vehicles moving the snow and the people driving it.

If the answer is less than $9, it would cost more to melt than truck it away.
If the answer is more than $25, a melter probably would make sense. In between, there is a lot of math to do.

How many square feet for the roof of this parking garage?
How many square feet total for all the parking garages you service or would like to service?

This information will give you a target for total tons.

Over how many hours or days would it be acceptable to have the snow removed/melted? This will tell you how many melters, or what size of melter, would do the job.

How many snow events per year?

At the current rate you are charging per ton, or maybe a slight upsell, could you cover your operating costs plus a 5 year amortization of the equipment, plus profit?

Then you have intangibles...
How hard is it for you to get enough people to do the removal with trailers? How many cars or internal structure have you whacked trying to get the snow down, etc.?

I like the idea of a chute in theory, but it would have to be carefully designed. If it is straight down, you will break anything you are loading into (basically figure dropping snow down the chute would be like dropping concrete blocks). If you put it at too shallow an angle, the snow won't slide and could plug up. Then you are done until spring.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> I'm positive I saw a you tube about an elevated parking area. Skid steer and a dump truck. The dump truck broke through the floor. Darn gravity.


You are positive I seen it, Old single axle furd 8 - 9K.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

FredG said:


> You are positive I seen it, Old single axle furd 8 - 9K.


Yup, scratched up truck, and stained undies.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

FredG said:


> Little short, No? I'm in no position to comment because lack of performing a parking garage but want to see where it goes. Why No??


The deck we were performing the service for did not want salt or liquid anywhere near the deck...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Defcon 5 said:


> The deck we were performing the service for did not want salt or liquid anywhere near the deck...


Maybe if the deck were made out of non edible concrete, the salt wouldn't get hungry enough to eat it...


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Had to use Potassium Acetate....Very Pricey and does a pretty poor job...But that's what they wanted...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The ramp we plow gets the crap salted oot of it, but it supposedly has a urethane coating that keeps water\salt from getting to the rebar. 

Between the salt and being built in the late 70's, it is NOT in good shape.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Defcon 5 said:


> Had to use Potassium Acetate....Very Pricey and does a pretty poor job...But that's what they wanted...


It's referred to in a quick Google search as being airport certified. I don't know **** about airports, but I have to imagine anything that is certified to be used around them would be outrageously expensive.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I don't know **** about airports,


It's generally where planes take oof and land.

And a bunch of minimum wage rejects molest innocent people.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Defcon 5 said:


> Had to use Potassium Acetate....Very Pricey and does a pretty poor job...But that's what they wanted...


Must be why they charge $25 per day to park there


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

John_DeereGreen said:


> It's referred to in a quick Google search as being airport certified. I don't know **** about airports, but I have to imagine anything that is certified to be used around them would be outrageously expensive.


It's all about corrosion of aluminum on all aircraft and the carbon/carbon brakes on modern large aircraft. 
Cost is about $7 per gallon, and one gallon does about 1000 square feet of frost/residual snow/thin ice if at moderate temps, so about $300 per acre.
It will work down to -25F (-32C) but at 3 gal per 1000 square ft ($900 per acre).

It is generally cost prohibitive for a small GA airport. A single 100'x4000' runway with a 35' taxiway and a reasonable ramp area would be about $5000 per event in material cost alone. Only the largest airports use it, and even then only on specific areas where they can't broom effectively.


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