# No Salting, How Much to Push??



## edunigan39

*Bidding this restaurant for snow removal, Curious how much I should Tell him per push and how much MORE $ I should charge if the snow fall is heavier. Any help would be great! Thank You. I will be plowing it with a Boss 8'2 V Plow.

He does NOT want any Salt.*


























Thanks guys.


----------



## grandview

I know what I would charge, 11k for the season.


----------



## edunigan39

grandview;1674976 said:


> I know what I would charge, 11k for the season.


Thanks for the reply! But they won't pay anywhere near $11,000 for 4 months of just plowing. Thanks though


----------



## grandview

edunigan39;1674987 said:


> Thanks for the reply! But they won't pay anywhere near $11,000 for 4 months of just plowing. Thanks though


Why waste your time then?


----------



## edunigan39

grandview;1674993 said:


> Why waste your time then?


$11,000? That's $2,750 a month. I'll be lucky to plow it 3 maybe 4 times a month and there will only be maybe MAX 1-4" each snow fall, unless we get a decent snow fall of 6-8". But those are so sporadic . This parking lot will only take 40 minutes maybe an hour MAX, each time to push. I'm thinking like $75 a push.


----------



## Mega cab

I don't know if Grandview was including plow only or salting with walks ect? But also have to think about travel time there and there opening time. If you can plow it a little later into the 9-10am range it could be a win win for your route! If your other plowing is complete at that time.


----------



## Antlerart06

$100 per visit with 2'' trigger If it was here


----------



## indplstim

bases off how many event grandview? or is that proprietary imformation? anywho...I personally think $75 is pretty low for that lot. Every market is different, but here in Indianapolis I think somewhere around $175 would keep me in the black.


----------



## grandview

You need to figure 2 plows with more snows unless you get lucky and it snows only at night and you can plow it once. Don't matter how much snow you get,its how many times you go out in a season.


----------



## Mega cab

Edunigan 39 cant believe you only get 3-4 snows a month! You are in more snowy area then me. We have plowed most everyone 2-3 times in November already. 
Indplstim we could not get anything near that kind of money here. But you guys can get much more money in Indy. I Think $100.00 range we be good for us but depends on your overhead. But I would have little or no travel time to get there. We would leave a neighboring account at that price.


----------



## leigh

225 per push around here for 1-3" 125$ per salt appl.Seasonal around my area with only 10-15 events around 4500$.


----------



## leigh

Just noticed no salt. I personally would not do it.Salting is my cash cow, plus the slip and fall deal, waivers, trying to plow icy hardpack. That lot will be a skating rink by the time you plow it.It needs pretreat with all that traffic.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

OK, he's close to Flint. 

It's maybe a 45 minute lot. 

Don't listen to the guys from 500 miles away, OP. Connecticut is NOT Flint, MI. Totally different environment. 

$75 per push max. By me, it would probably go lower than that. In Flint, it's anybody's guess. 

Besides, the OP's costs are not everyone else's costs. His business is different than everyone else's. 

Sorry GV, but there's probably GM plants in Flint that don't go for $11K.


----------



## leigh

Mark Oomkes;1675312 said:


> OK, he's close to Flint.
> 
> It's maybe a 45 minute lot.
> 
> Don't listen to the guys from 500 miles away, OP. Connecticut is NOT Flint, MI. Totally different environment.
> 
> $75 per push max. By me, it would probably go lower than that. In Flint, it's anybody's guess.
> 
> Besides, the OP's costs are not everyone else's costs. His business is different than everyone else's.
> 
> Sorry GV, but there's probably GM plants in Flint that don't go for $11K.


It's always surprising how much pricing varies. I didn't think that the cost of doing business varied that much. Truck , Ins, fuel, plow/sander pricing, rent etc seems to be similar no matter where you live. I know my personal expenses are high being in this area of CT. If I charged 75$ for that lot I would be taking money out of my pocket to pay subs! Oh well, stay safe and let's make some money! Darned recession/depression!


----------



## MSsnowplowing

edunigan39;1674996 said:


> $11,000? That's $2,750 a month. I'll be lucky to plow it 3 maybe 4 times a month and there will only be maybe MAX 1-4" each snow fall, unless we get a decent snow fall of 6-8". But those are so sporadic . This parking lot will only take 40 minutes maybe an hour MAX, each time to push. I'm thinking like $75 a push.


per push
1-2 $150
3-4 $250
4-6 $350
$100 every two inches up to 22 then it's $200 every two inches.

So you get an average of 16 events a year if you get 4 snow storms a month.

Take your base price times 16 = $2,400 and then double it to $4,800. there's your seasonal price.

Mind you, that is just for plowing only.

The price goes up for salting and sidewalks.

GV's price is good if your doing everything.


----------



## Antlerart06

leigh;1675317 said:


> It's always surprising how much pricing varies. I didn't think that the cost of doing business varied that much. Truck , Ins, fuel, plow/sander pricing, rent etc seems to be similar no matter where you live. I know my personal expenses are high being in this area of CT. If I charged 75$ for that lot I would be taking money out of my pocket to pay subs! Oh well, stay safe and let's make some money! Darned recession/depression!


What do you pay ur subs If you had 2 subs in this lots time frame be way less then 20min
So what are you paying for your subs per hour??


----------



## leigh

Antlerart06;1675323 said:


> What do you pay ur subs If you had 2 subs in this lots time frame be way less then 20min
> So what are you paying for your subs per hour??


70$ an hour.Doesn't matter how many plows are in the lot, still adds up the same,if not a little longer.(cluster,,,,) In 1987 we didn't know how much to charge, landscaper paid us 45$ hr, told us to bid our own job's at 2-3$ a minute. Never knew if was high or low, blissfully making good money all these years. Till I started looking at this site! Feel guilty at times. OP, guess you should listen to local /regional advice. And it's been stressed constantly.know your true costs! Unless your just making a few bucks for fun/ spending money.


----------



## Antlerart06

leigh;1675325 said:


> 70$ an hour.Doesn't matter how many plows are in the lot, still adds up the same,if not a little longer.(cluster,,,,) In 1987 we didn't know how much to charge, landscaper paid us 45$ hr, told us to bid our own job's at 2-3$ a minute. Never knew if was high or low, blissfully making good money all these years. Till I started looking at this site! Feel guilty at times. OP, guess you should listen to local /regional advice. And it's been stressed constantly.know your true costs! Unless your just making a few bucks for fun/ spending money.


Cost out east is a lot higher then here Subs go from 35 to 50 here depending size of there plow
Im in a small town to with 20,000 people

In a 2010 storm I hired 2 subs I paid them there asking price of 30 each I thought at end of day, I would pay them 45 each. Will come end of the day I only paid them what they ask they wasn't even worth that.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

MSsnowplowing;1675322 said:


> per push
> 1-2 $150
> 3-4 $250
> 4-6 $350
> $100 every two inches up to 22 then it's $200 every two inches.
> 
> So you get an average of 16 events a year if you get 4 snow storms a month.
> 
> Take your base price times 16 = $2,400 and then double it to $4,800. there's your seasonal price.
> 
> Mind you, that is just for plowing only.
> 
> The price goes up for salting and sidewalks.
> 
> GV's price is good if your doing everything.


Pricing like this will allow the OP to stay in a nice, warm bed every night. And not pay for his truck\plow.

$200\hour? For Flint?

Do some of you pay attention to the rest of the world? Most of Michigan has just been coming out of the recession it has been in for the past 12 years. We don't have the demographics that Connecticut has. Or NY. Or Joisey.

Throw in the fact that Flint\Detroit has been hit far worse than most of the rest of Michigan, and y'all are nuts for giving prices like this to the guy.



Antlerart06;1675323 said:


> What do you pay ur subs If you had 2 subs in this lots time frame be way less then 20min
> So what are you paying for your subs per hour??


How\why would anyone even think about 2 trucks in that small of a lot?

leigh, to a certain extent you are correct. But, when you figure in actual cost of living in across the country, you are correct, regional pricing varies hugely.

Talk to peteo from Erie and ask what their hourly rates are.They are lower than what Flint would be.

The OP should have asked: "How long will this lot take me?" Then he takes his costs and profit desires and figures out his price.


----------



## jasonv

edunigan39;1674970 said:


> *Bidding this restaurant for snow removal, Curious how much I should Tell him per push and how much MORE $ I should charge if the snow fall is heavier. Any help would be great! Thank You. I will be plowing it with a Boss 8'2 V Plow.
> 
> He does NOT want any Salt.*
> 
> <pics removed>
> 
> Thanks guys.


Did you actually take photographs of your computer screen?


----------



## maxwellp

.5-3 = $185
3.1-6 = $260
6.1-9 = $350

Over 9 $90 per hr.


----------



## grandview

Mark Oomkes;1675359 said:


> Pricing like this will allow the OP to stay in a nice, warm bed every night. And not pay for his truck\plow.
> 
> $200\hour? For Flint?
> 
> Do some of you pay attention to the rest of the world? Most of Michigan has just been coming out of the recession it has been in for the past 12 years. We don't have the demographics that Connecticut has. Or NY. Or Joisey.
> 
> Throw in the fact that Flint\Detroit has been hit far worse than most of the rest of Michigan, and y'all are nuts for giving prices like this to the guy.
> 
> How\why would anyone even think about 2 trucks in that small of a lot?
> 
> leigh, to a certain extent you are correct. But, when you figure in actual cost of living in across the country, you are correct, regional pricing varies hugely.
> 
> Talk to peteo from Erie and ask what their hourly rates are.They are lower than what Flint would be.
> 
> The OP should have asked: "How long will this lot take me?" Then he takes his costs and profit desires and figures out his price.


Only place more poorer then Flint is Buffalo where I am,and we still get good money. Thumbs Up


----------



## Meezer

Mark Oomkes;1675312 said:


> OK, he's close to Flint.
> 
> It's maybe a 45 minute lot.
> 
> Don't listen to the guys from 500 miles away, OP. Connecticut is NOT Flint, MI. Totally different environment.
> 
> $75 per push max. By me, it would probably go lower than that. In Flint, it's anybody's guess.
> 
> Besides, the OP's costs are not everyone else's costs. His business is different than everyone else's.
> 
> Sorry GV, but there's probably GM plants in Flint that don't go for $11K.


It would seem the further one goes into MI the prices seem to drop off dramatically.

We plow a few lots like that in the Michiana area & get $125 per push all day long.


----------



## Antlerart06

Mark Oomkes;1675359 said:


> How\why would anyone even think about 2 trucks in that small of a lot?
> .


Well Time frame before stores open depending when snow starts. There are times I pair everybody with a buddy.
In this lot there room for 2 trucks during after hours

Each can clean the sides at same time After sides are done then they can work front of the building Once start getting close to each other one guy takes off to the lot to lay it off.
Say takes 45mins clean it with one truck But 2 trucks its cleaned in 20mins and both guys has moved on
It works for me I have 3 same lots like this one in a row.
Its just like mowing grass 2 mowers is faster then one mower.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Meezer;1675430 said:


> It would seem the further one goes into MI the prices seem to drop off dramatically.
> 
> We plow a few lots like that in the Michiana area & get $125 per push all day long.


I bet that lot goes for $50 in Holland.



Antlerart06;1675540 said:


> Well Time frame before stores open depending when snow starts. There are times I pair everybody with a buddy.
> In this lot there room for 2 trucks during after hours
> 
> Each can clean the sides at same time After sides are done then they can work front of the building Once start getting close to each other one guy takes off to the lot to lay it off.
> Say takes 45mins clean it with one truck But 2 trucks its cleaned in 20mins and both guys has moved on
> It works for me I have 3 same lots like this one in a row.
> Its just like mowing grass 2 mowers is faster then one mower.


It has to be at least 3 acres or very, very split up before I would even consider 2 trucks in one lot. Especially like that one.

Personally, with a Blizzard and 16' Ebling, I could have that lot done in under a half hour. Up to 6". Even with just a Blizzard I could have it done in a half hour.

Couple years ago, I did 6.5 acres, with an inch and a half in 1.5 hours. Blizzard 8611 LP and 16' Ebling on an F350.


----------



## Antlerart06

Mark Oomkes;1675566 said:


> I bet that lot goes for $50 in Holland.
> 
> It has to be at least 3 acres or very, very split up before I would even consider 2 trucks in one lot. Especially like that one.
> 
> Personally, with a Blizzard and 16' Ebling, I could have that lot done in under a half hour. Up to 6". Even with just a Blizzard I could have it done in a half hour.
> 
> .


With your set up takes you half hour you say put 2 of yours trucks on and your done in 15 mins and moving to the next job.

If it don't work for you that's kool.

Time is money and its faster with 2 trucks. With less wear

I run a 8.5 pro+ with wings and a 9.6 Vplow with wings these 2 trucks runs together and knock out a lot of parking lots of this size in a short amount time working together. But snow during open hours then I would run one truck on this size of a lot.


----------



## Maleko

Agree amazing how the prices are so different across the country. 
No salting on a commercial lot. Ya no thanks. What about ice or when the customers are driving over snow and packing it? What about return visits to clean up where cars were parked etc.?
$200 per push $125 each salt application.


----------



## leigh

Good to see all of us Ct guys are on same page! Looks like we're the Rockerfellers of the plow world! How come I'm always broke.:realmad:
One thing we all have in common- no matter where we live, we all hand our money to others ,happy to be able to stop at packy store for booze once a week!


----------



## Maleko

leigh;1675671 said:


> Good to see all of us Ct guys are on same page! Looks like we're the Rockerfellers of the plow world! How come I'm always broke.:realmad:
> One thing we all have in common- no matter where we live, we all hand our money to others ,happy to be able to stop at packy store for booze once a week!


So true... Ok we may live in a expensive area but the cost of operating balances out. 
$50. For a commercial lot is a joke I don't care where you are.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

Mark Oomkes;1675359 said:


> Pricing like this will allow the OP to stay in a nice, warm bed every night. And not pay for his truck\plow.
> 
> $200\hour? For Flint?
> 
> Do some of you pay attention to the rest of the world? Most of Michigan has just been coming out of the recession it has been in for the past 12 years. We don't have the demographics that Connecticut has. Or NY. Or Joisey.
> 
> Throw in the fact that Flint\Detroit has been hit far worse than most of the rest of Michigan, and y'all are nuts for giving prices like this to the guy.


When someone asks about pricing, I like everyone else will give prices on a similar lots that we do or have done.

Doing a lot that size for $75 dollars a push is very low considering it is a restaurant and liability is higher for slip and falls and then they don't want him salting on top of that increases the risk even more.

That is one reason why I gave a starting price of $150 with $100dollar increments, that risk is the reason for the price.

Like anything else, prices do vary from State to State and even within each State your town location can make a difference in pricing.

Anyone on this site should know this it's not up to us posting to put disclaimers in all our posts.

But if anyone wants a disclaimer, here you go:

"Warning  Warning  these are the prices payup we get for similar sites in our respective area of our State, these prices may be too high or too low for your area of your State"


----------



## yard patrol

I got contracted to do a lot here in Fairfield, IA. city the size of 10k-15k, its a family dollar lot that is about 11,000 sq ft for $70 a push, no side walks. They have a 2" trigger but can only plow twice a day. if it snows over night am to wait till morning to plow. I am only to put calcium on it when they call and tell me too for another $70. I think last year it only snowed six times here. I looked at their store list for other towns that needed plowed and that was the price for all stores in Iowa that were on the list. Though I'd throw that price out to you!


----------



## Meezer

yard patrol;1675895 said:


> I got contracted to do a lot here in Fairfield, IA. city the size of 10k-15k, its a family dollar lot that is about 11,000 sq ft for $70 a push, no side walks. They have a 2" trigger but can only plow twice a day. if it snows over night am to wait till morning to plow. I am only to put calcium on it when they call and tell me too for another $70. I think last year it only snowed six times here. I looked at their store list for other towns that needed plowed and that was the price for all stores in Iowa that were on the list. Though I'd throw that price out to you!


So Family Dollar is dictating to you what they will pay you? Interesting.....


----------



## yard patrol

Its not dollar general Its one of those third parties. (AGMG) They called and asked if I would be interested in doing it for that price and I said I would. Then they asked if I would do any others in my area (send a list of stores that needed service) which I wasn't ok with doing for that price. They had two more in the next town over but would be a 40 min drive to properties. 

I'm still waiting on family dollar store to get back to me, they too use a third party (sms) the price they sent was way too low, then I notice that the sq ft they had listed was about 4,000 sq ft off and a good 200 ft off of the side walks. They said they were having someone come look at it and haven't heard back from them yet.


----------



## Maleko

Meezer;1675905 said:


> So Family Dollar is dictating to you what they will pay you? Interesting.....


^^This^^^

Wow.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

leigh;1675671 said:


> Good to see all of us Ct guys are on same page! Looks like we're the Rockerfellers of the plow world! How come I'm always broke.:realmad:
> One thing we all have in common- no matter where we live, we all hand our money to others ,happy to be able to stop at packy store for booze once a week!


Thats because all the money we make goes into paying for our bloody gas for our trucks. $3.70 a gallon for the cheapest.

At least insurance is not being jacked up like in NJ -(those guys are getting slammed and it's not right) I still can't wrap my mind around them having to pay over $4,000 per truck for GL insurance.


----------



## Antlerart06

MSsnowplowing;1676074 said:


> Thats because all the money we make goes into paying for our bloody gas for our trucks. $3.70 a gallon for the cheapest.
> 
> At least insurance is not being jacked up like in NJ -(those guys are getting slammed and it's not right) I still can't wrap my mind around them having to pay over $4,000 per truck for GL insurance.


3.70 a gallon Its 2.70 here


----------



## MSsnowplowing

Antlerart06;1676086 said:


> 3.70 a gallon Its 2.70 here


over the summer it hit 4.75 a gallon needless to say I parked the truck and rode the bike everywhere.


----------



## Antlerart06

MSsnowplowing;1676090 said:


> over the summer it hit 4.75 a gallon needless to say I parked the truck and rode the bike everywhere.


Wow I never seen gas go over 4.00 got close. Sucks gas goes up but doesn't bother me much. I pass it on to the customer with a fuel charge.

So you just plow snow with your trucks Do you do any work with them during Summer?


----------



## MSsnowplowing

Antlerart06;1676099 said:


> Wow I never seen gas go over 4.00 got close. Sucks gas goes up but doesn't bother me much. I pass it on to the customer with a fuel charge.
> 
> So you just plow snow with your trucks
> Do you do any work with them during Summer?


Strictly plowing. Summer is for fun


----------



## THORNTON

I am shure that different areas are different based on pricing but you should not take money out of your pocket , the minimum that I have found that I can operate my business on for snow plowing is $100 hour with a minimum stop fee of $45 , anything less than this and I do not see how you can make money unless of course you don't have commercial ins on your truck etc etc , there are places here like the family dollar that are cheap on prices and each year they find some poor guy to agree to do it???????? every year a different person , add the fact that they can possibly hold you liable if someone falls in the lot etc , its not worth it , get paid for your work , me personally I would not even do the lot because I only offer full service , but if you need the account I would raise my minimum stop fee up to $55 and do $100 hour that way if it snows foot over night and keeps snowing in the morning on top of what you cleared you are covered when you spend 2 hours plowing the lot before they open , I would say figure out what you need as an hourly rate to run your business and charge them that , I personally am not a big fan of the flat charge , to much room for you to get screwed. Just my opinion.


----------



## grandview

Antlerart06;1676086 said:


> 3.70 a gallon Its 2.70 here


At those prices I could plow for less too!


----------



## Antlerart06

MSsnowplowing;1676101 said:


> Strictly plowing. Summer is for fun


Then I can see why when you quote your prices to others are so high you have to make 4 months of money last you for a year.
All my expense is spread out in 12 months of work.

Hey works for you that's kool. Sound like a job to have


----------



## MSsnowplowing

Antlerart06;1676113 said:


> Then I can see why when you quote your prices to others are so high you have to make 4 months of money last you for a year.
> All my expense is spread out in 12 months of work.
> 
> Hey works for you that's kool. Sound like a job to have


Believe it or not my prices are lower in my areas than most for commercials.

And no I don't have to make my money last all year, I have other things that generate income.


----------



## grandview

MSsnowplowing;1676122 said:


> *Believe it or not my prices are lower in my areas than most for commercials.*
> 
> And no I don't have to make my money last all year, I have other things that generate income.


Lowballer!Thumbs Up


----------



## Antlerart06

MSsnowplowing;1676122 said:


> Believe it or not my prices are lower in my areas than most for commercials.
> 
> And no I don't have to make my money last all year, I have other things that generate income.


Sorry
When you said you plow and summer time is for fun It sounded like that's all you do for a income plowing snow.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

grandview;1676131 said:


> Lowballer!Thumbs Up


now now, im not that low. I 
say im in the middle range


----------



## MSsnowplowing

Antlerart06;1676134 said:


> Sorry
> When you said you plow and summer time is for fun It sounded like that's all you do for a income plowing snow.


No problem.

I could do landscaping most of my clients keep asking me to but I Don't Want To.

Then again if I could find the right trailer to tow with my Harley I could combine riding that with doing landscaping.

Put a zero turn on it, along with some leaf blowers, rakes etc...

Now that would be a site


----------



## grandview

MSsnowplowing;1676139 said:


> No problem.
> 
> I could do landscaping most of my clients keep asking me to but I Don't Want To.
> 
> Then again if I could find the right trailer to tow with my Harley I could combine riding that with doing landscaping.
> 
> Put a zero turn on it, along with some leaf blowers, rakes etc...
> 
> Now that would be a site


Thumbs Up


----------



## Antlerart06

grandview;1676163 said:


> Thumbs Up


Dang there is my mulch bike


----------



## Mark Oomkes

THORNTON;1676102 said:


> I am shure that different areas are different based on pricing but you should not take money out of your pocket , the minimum that I have found that I can operate my business on for snow plowing is $100 hour with a minimum stop fee of $45 , anything less than this and I do not see how you can make money unless of course you don't have commercial ins on your truck etc etc ,


Yup, been in business for over 80 years, running under the table. No insurance. No taxes. Not paying employee taxes. Etc. Never filed a tax return. Or pesticide license.

If you can't figure out how to operate for under $100 an hour, you need a better account or you need to stop wasting money.

I could make money at $55\hour, I don't want to. I could have a crapload of work at that rate and do a half ass job and still make money, but I'm not going through all the BS involved in this industry for $55\hour multiplied by 1, 2 or 100 trucks.

Let me ask this, what is your productivity?

With an inch of snow, I could plow that lot in 20 minutes, tops. Give me a couple times and I could get it down to 15. So I charge $75 for it. That comes out to $227\hour. Am I still lowballing?

What if I charge $50 for it? That's $150\hour, is that lowballing?

I can do it in 20 minutes up to 4-5 inches. How many storms are over 4-5"? Does the higher productivity of 80% of your storms make up for the 20% that will take longer?

I think some of you guys need to retake math class. Which reminds me, I need to dig up an old thread that is the same subject as we are discussing here. There were a whole lotta folks who claimed some guys doing drives were lowballing, but when I ran the numbers, it came to $110\hour. No one would debate that, just kept complaining that these guys were lowballing.


----------



## maxwellp

Mark has a lot of good points.
I will not go out for less than $90 per hr but I don't even like doing that because I make way more on doing driveways for $45 a pop. That also is as low as I go. I have no problem keeping full. Some come and some go, houses are sold. I only get about 25% of what I bid but they pay well and I don't drive the prices in the area down. My favorites are the 45$ one I can do in about 10 mins. with no hand work. 

I would also have to add I will not plow snow for 55$ per hour.


----------



## jrs.landscaping

There is no money left at 55 per hour
20 for operator
2 gallons of fuel
insurance
Wear and tear........

Mark does have good points about production and volume making money, but for 55 an hour I'd stay on the couch and watch it snow.......


----------



## MSsnowplowing

jrs.landscaping;1676255 said:


> There is no money left at 55 per hour
> 20 for operator
> 2 gallons of fuel
> insurance
> Wear and tear........
> 
> Mark does have good points about production and volume making money, but for 55 an hour I'd stay on the couch and watch it snow.......


I agee. I could chuck the whole business and go plow for someone else at 75 an hour with my set up. 
If im not making at least 100 an hour its not worth it.


----------



## Antlerart06

Mark Oomkes;1676238 said:


> Yup, been in business for over 80 years, running under the table. No insurance. No taxes. Not paying employee taxes. Etc. Never filed a tax return. Or pesticide license.
> 
> If you can't figure out how to operate for under $100 an hour, you need a better account or you need to stop wasting money.
> 
> I could make money at $55\hour, I don't want to. I could have a crapload of work at that rate and do a half ass job and still make money, but I'm not going through all the BS involved in this industry for $55\hour multiplied by 1, 2 or 100 trucks.
> 
> Let me ask this, what is your productivity?
> 
> With an inch of snow, I could plow that lot in 20 minutes, tops. Give me a couple times and I could get it down to 15. So I charge $75 for it. That comes out to $227\hour. Am I still lowballing?
> 
> What if I charge $50 for it? That's $150\hour, is that lowballing?
> 
> I can do it in 20 minutes up to 4-5 inches. How many storms are over 4-5"? Does the higher productivity of 80% of your storms make up for the 20% that will take longer?
> 
> I think some of you guys need to retake math class. Which reminds me, I need to dig up an old thread that is the same subject as we are discussing here. There were a whole lotta folks who claimed some guys doing drives were lowballing, but when I ran the numbers, it came to $110\hour. No one would debate that, just kept complaining that these guys were lowballing.


Well said Thumbs Up


----------



## Maleko

Mark Oomkes;1676238 said:


> Yup, been in business for over 80 years, running under the table. No insurance. No taxes. Not paying employee taxes. Etc. Never filed a tax return. Or pesticide license.
> 
> If you can't figure out how to operate for under $100 an hour, you need a better account or you need to stop wasting money.
> 
> I could make money at $55\hour, I don't want to. I could have a crapload of work at that rate and do a half ass job and still make money, but I'm not going through all the BS involved in this industry for $55\hour multiplied by 1, 2 or 100 trucks.
> 
> Let me ask this, what is your productivity?
> 
> With an inch of snow, I could plow that lot in 20 minutes, tops. Give me a couple times and I could get it down to 15. So I charge $75 for it. That comes out to $227\hour. Am I still lowballing?
> 
> What if I charge $50 for it? That's $150\hour, is that lowballing?
> 
> I can do it in 20 minutes up to 4-5 inches. How many storms are over 4-5"? Does the higher productivity of 80% of your storms make up for the 20% that will take longer?
> 
> I think some of you guys need to retake math class. Which reminds me, I need to dig up an old thread that is the same subject as we are discussing here. There were a whole lotta folks who claimed some guys doing drives were lowballing, but when I ran the numbers, it came to $110\hour. No one would debate that, just kept complaining that these guys were lowballing.


If you charge $50. For that lot how is it $150 an hour?
You still only made $50 no?
You have to drive to the lot , put gas in your truck etc.. Then you have to drive to the next lot.
So unless you have 3 of those $50 lots right next to each other and you do all three in that said hour you made $150.


----------



## Antlerart06

Maleko;1676268 said:


> If you charge $50. For that lot how is it $150 an hour?
> You still only made $50 no?
> You have to drive to the lot , put gas in your truck etc.. Then you have to drive to the next lot.
> So unless you have 3 of those $50 lots right next to each other and you do all three in that said hour you made $150.


I can tell you If you have 3 lots in a row for same price and you can do all 3 lots in 1 hr You be making $150 for 1 hr of work

Now if you only have 1 lot then you cant

Low pricing only works on high volume


----------



## Maleko

Antlerart06;1676277 said:


> I can tell you If you have 3 lots in a row for same price and you can do all 3 lots in 1 hr You be making $150 for 1 hr of work
> 
> Now if you only have 1 lot then you cant
> 
> Low pricing only works on high volume


That's what I was saying


----------



## grandview

Some of the problems are guys don't look at the big picture, take Marks 50 bucks, some guys look at plow a lot and you only made 50 bucks ,but if you have a full route and plowout 4-5 small lots at 50 each ,your at that 100-200.00 range per hour. I understand that each lot should be able to hold it own.


----------



## leigh

Mark Oomkes;1676238 said:


> Yup, been in business for over 80 years, running under the table. No insurance. No taxes. Not paying employee taxes. Etc. Never filed a tax return. Or pesticide license.
> 
> In business for 80 years?


----------



## maxwellp

Here is something to think about - with high volume come higher costs. 
I will do a lot for $150 20 min done.
someone else will do three lots for $50 each takes an hour, makes $150 also, But they will have high fuel costs and more ware on things. 
I choose not to be low Price High Volume.


----------



## grandview

maxwellp;1676301 said:


> Here is something to think about - with high volume come higher costs.
> I will do a lot for $150 20 min done.
> someone else will do three lots for $50 each make $150 also, But they will have high fuel costs and more ware on things.
> I choose not to be low Price High Volume.


Ton of lead,ton of feathers.


----------



## leigh

maxwellp;1676301 said:


> Here is something to think about - with high volume come higher costs.
> I will do a lot for $150 20 min done.
> someone else will do there lots for $50 each make $150 also, But they will have high fuel costs and more ware on things.
> I choose not to be low Price High Volume.


On the other side of equation, here in sw ct we average from a low of 6-8 events to maybe 15 or so. If I plowed 30 times I would be able to lower prices because some of my costs( like ins ,rent ) could be divided by more events. Of course wear and tear is one area that would be faster as mentioned.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

jrs.landscaping;1676255 said:


> There is no money left at 55 per hour
> 20 for operator
> 2 gallons of fuel
> insurance
> Wear and tear........
> 
> Mark does have good points about production and volume making money, but for 55 an hour I'd stay on the couch and watch it snow.......


Horse hockey, there _is_ money left at $55\hour. Just not as much as you or I want. I too, wouldn't get out of bed for $55\hour. I would pay a good sub that much, if not more.

But to make a blanket statement that there isn't money left is wrong.



Maleko;1676268 said:


> If you charge $50. For that lot how is it $150 an hour?
> You still only made $50 no?
> You have to drive to the lot , put gas in your truck etc.. Then you have to drive to the next lot.
> So unless you have 3 of those $50 lots right next to each other and you do all three in that said hour you made $150.


You would be one of those people that need to go back to math class.

Even having only 1 lot, it's still $150\hour. Fine, add 10 minutes for drive time. 5 for fuel. 30 minutes total, I am still at $100\hour.

You do realize you are the only asking this question, don't you?



leigh;1676300 said:


> Mark Oomkes;1676238 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, been in business for over 80 years, running under the table. No insurance. No taxes. Not paying employee taxes. Etc. Never filed a tax return. Or pesticide license.
> 
> In business for 80 years?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, my greatgrandfather started it in 1932.
> 
> Is there a problem with that?
> 
> 
> 
> maxwellp;1676301 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is something to think about - with high volume come higher costs.
> I will do a lot for $150 20 min done.
> someone else will do three lots for $50 each takes an hour, makes $150 also, But they will have high fuel costs and more ware on things.
> I choose not to be low Price High Volume.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> With higher volume comes the ability to spread out costs over more customers, allowing lower prices.
> 
> Not sure where anybody is saying I or the OP is only doing 1 lot.
> 
> I am not saying I choose to be low price\high volume either. I am pointing out the fact that it can be done and when *some* of you guys say this lot should go for $150 come hell or high water and there is no way of doing it any cheaper and still making money, I am saying your nuts. And don't understand basic math, or the regionality of pricing for snow service.
> 
> I can go 30 miles west and customers demand hourly rates and those rates are about half of what I figure my rates are. Not per push or seasonal, but hourly. Yes, they get a lot more snow so the costs are spread out over more events, but not enough to justify hourly rates that are half what mine are. And those guys stay in business year after year after year.
> 
> Check with the guys from Erie. I believe most stuff is per push there, but prices are far less than half what mine are. The reputable contractors want higher prices but are not able to because of a couple large contractors that drive prices to unbelievable lows and they stay in business.
> 
> One just has to become a better businessman.
Click to expand...


----------



## WIPensFan

I think one of the main factors in snow pricing nowadays is the ability to keep doing whatever work a company does in the other months of the year. For instance, pricing snow removal in a way( lower than it should be ) that allows you to keep your employees and accounts around all year. Or making just enough money to keep paying for equipment and expenses and stay in business. Probably not making as much money on snow work but making good money on construction, landscaping, tree work, mowing, concrete, farming??(not sure about that one) or whatever else most plowers do in the spring, summer and fall. Of course I realize some people make very good money with just snow removal.

I'm struggling to put thoughts into words this morning, sorry if my point doesn't come across...I think pricing is more involved than just how much for this one lot.


----------



## basher

Mark Oomkes;1676238 said:


> Yup, been in business for over 80 years, running under the table. No insurance. No taxes. Not paying employee taxes. Etc. Never filed a tax return. Or pesticide license.
> .


Teach us how o great one.


----------



## 2COR517

Antlerart06;1675593 said:


> Time is money and its faster with 2 trucks. With less wear


Half the wear on twice as many trucks is the same amount of wear.


----------



## leigh

leigh;1676300 said:


> Yes, my greatgrandfather started it in 1932.
> 
> Is there a problem with that?
> Don't get all hot and bothered I did the math(limited) and thought we were in the presence of an immortal plow god! Thought you were in your 90's. Or maybe a death-defying plow vampire.(with good math/business skills) Carry on!


----------



## maxwellp

WIPensFan;1676714 said:


> I think one of the main factors in snow pricing nowadays is the ability to keep doing whatever work a company does in the other months of the year. For instance, pricing snow removal in a way( lower than it should be ) that allows you to keep your employees and accounts around all year. Or making just enough money to keep paying for equipment and expenses and stay in business. Probably not making as much money on snow work but making good money on construction, landscaping, tree work, mowing, concrete, farming??(not sure about that one) or whatever else most plowers do in the spring, summer and fall. Of course I realize some people make very good money with just snow removal.
> 
> I'm struggling to put thoughts into words this morning, sorry if my point doesn't come across...I think pricing is more involved than just how much for this one lot.


I get what you are saying

You are right - some look at snow just to keep afloat.

I try to make most of my money in three months so I can play all summer.
That is why I will not have the Low Price. :waving:
But with that the costumer will get unbeatable service.


----------



## WIPensFan

maxwellp;1676740 said:


> I get what you are saying
> 
> You are right - some look at snow just to keep afloat.
> 
> I try to make most of my money in three months so I can play all summer.
> That is why I will not have the Low Price. :waving:
> But with that the costumer will get unbeatable service.


Glad someone did.

I like your philosophy.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

basher;1676716 said:


> Teach us how o great one.


It's worked out great for 80+ years.

I mean the guy said you can't run a legit plow truck for $55\hour.



2COR517;1676728 said:


> Half the wear on twice as many trucks is the same amount of wear.


Shhhh, apparently you didn't see my posts about remedial math classes being needed.

Additionally, 2 trucks would require 2 operators, 2 registrations, 2 vehicles needing coverage.

But hey, by all means put 2 trucks in a 20 minute, 3/4 acre lot.

FWIW, my money making season is winter. I could still make money at $55\hour, but not nearly as much.


----------



## jrs.landscaping

I've tried it Mark, as a sub making 55 an hour. One year after paying all expenses I cleared a little over 2k. Over 200 hours of plowing for that kind of money doesn't interest me.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

jrs.landscaping;1676882 said:


> I've tried it Mark, as a sub making 55 an hour. One year after paying all expenses I cleared a little over 2k. Over 200 hours of plowing for that kind of money doesn't interest me.


So you did make money at $55?


----------



## jrs.landscaping

Mark Oomkes;1676900 said:


> So you did make money at $55?


Yes, because I never paid myself....... if I would have paid a driver I would have lost money........


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Huh?

You paid all expenses and cleared $2K. That was your payment. 

This is weird, I always thought math was simple. Guess I was wrong.


----------



## jrs.landscaping

$9 an hour......... all set with that kind of profit.


----------



## grandview

jrs.landscaping;1676912 said:


> $9 an hour......... all set with that kind of profit.


Join the protest for 15 an hour!Thumbs Up


----------



## jrs.landscaping

grandview;1676915 said:


> Join the protest for 15 an hour!Thumbs Up


If I was still making those kinds of profits I probably would


----------



## MSsnowplowing

jrs.landscaping;1676882 said:


> I've tried it Mark, as a sub making 55 an hour. One year after paying all expenses I cleared a little over 2k. Over 200 hours of plowing for that kind of money doesn't interest me.


200 hours at 55 an hour is 11,000. What kind of expenses merit spending 9,000?
Insurance 1300
gas 2000
maintenance 1700
Food & drink 500

and those numbers I figured high.

So you make 11000 spend 5500 still clear 5500.

That's not bad money.


----------



## jrs.landscaping

No depreciation?
Insurance is double that......
cutting edge is 250 for the season
Plus all of the other " breakdowns" that happen
I've tried it at those rates.... the numbers don't add up when it's all said and done. If a shoveler is being billed out at 30-40 an hour why would you run a truck for only 15-25 more per hour?


----------



## MSsnowplowing

jrs.landscaping;1676929 said:


> No depreciation?
> Insurance is double that......
> cutting edge is 250 for the season
> Plus all of the other " breakdowns" that happen
> I've tried it at those rates.... the numbers don't add up when it's all said and done. If a shoveler is being billed out at 30-40 an hour why would you run a truck for only 15-25 more per hour?


Just got my qote thru glquote.com.
1 million, standard coverage. 1,000 deduct is for 1 year 1300.

I plow an average 10 hours for a 3 inch storm and then another 4 to 5 hours for clean up. Rough EST of 1,000 hours per season and i get 2 years out if my cutting edges. I suggest you get the heavy duty edge thickest there is for your plow.

I do maintenance on my truck every year before the season starts. All fluids changed, all bearings greased, all lines checked etc. Costs around 500 and i have never had my truck breakdown.

the worst thing that happened was bending my angle piston on the plow. Still finished what had to be done and then got it fixed.

regardless that is part of business.

Like i said the numbers still do not add up.

200 hrs at 55 is 11,000.

If you only made 2,000 out of that then something is really wrong.


----------



## Antlerart06

MSsnowplowing;1677093 said:


> Just got my qote thru glquote.com.
> 1 million, standard coverage. 1,000 deduct is for 1 year 1300.
> 
> I plow an average 10 hours for a 3 inch storm and then another 4 to 5 hours for clean up. Rough EST of 1,000 hours per season and i get 2 years out if my cutting edges. I suggest you get the heavy duty edge thickest there is for your plow.
> 
> I do maintenance on my truck every year before the season starts. All fluids changed, all bearings greased, all lines checked etc. Costs around 500 and i have never had my truck breakdown.
> 
> the worst thing that happened was bending my angle piston on the plow. Still finished what had to be done and then got it fixed.
> 
> regardless that is part of business.
> 
> Like i said the numbers still do not add up.
> 
> 200 hrs at 55 is 11,000.
> 
> If you only made 2,000 out of that then something is really wrong.


You solo?
In your 10hrs of a 3'' storm What do you gross


----------



## Meezer

maxwellp;1676740 said:


> I try to make most of my money in three months so I can play all summer.
> That is why I will not have the Low Price. :waving:
> .


Or another way of putting it, you refuse to leave money on the table like others in your area do with low ball pricingpayup


----------



## MSsnowplowing

Antlerart06;1677198 said:


> You solo?
> In your 10hrs of a 3'' storm What do you gross


No not solo, I have 3 other guys that plow independent for me and a two man sidewalk crew.
We are a small company and intend to remain that way. We have had the same client list for several years because by remaining small under 20 commercial contracts a year we are able to provide quality and timely service.
As for the gross, its a living.


----------



## jrs.landscaping

You're lucky to never breakdown, my truck cooked an alternator, blew two injectors, and lost a fuel pump that year. You're right it's all part of doing business but like I said when we pay our subs $30 per hour for a shoveler and I was getting 55 for a one ton with spreader and a 9 foot blade....... it isn't worth the headache of running a truck for that kind of money unless you deal in volume or are just starting out jmho.


----------



## Antlerart06

MSsnowplowing;1677245 said:


> No not solo, I have 3 other guys that plow independent for me and a two man sidewalk crew.
> We are a small company and intend to remain that way. We have had the same client list for several years because by remaining small under 20 commercial contracts a year we are able to provide quality and timely service.
> As for the gross, its a living.


I was just wondering what others gross in a 3'' storm.

This year mine will change I drop my sidewalk crew and drop a lot sidewalk jobs , only keeping the non headaches 
So Im down to 34 Commercial lots with 3 full time rigs and 2 part time rigs

So not sure time frame will be this year But do know If I do everything with salt one pass I will gross 6,500. I'm thinking my time frame should be around 8 hrs or less. I'll should find out Sunday calling 2-4 snow fall


----------



## MSsnowplowing

Antlerart06;1677270 said:


> I was just wondering what others gross in a 3'' storm.
> 
> This year mine will change I drop my sidewalk crew and drop a lot sidewalk jobs , only keeping the non headaches
> So Im down to 34 Commercial lots with 3 full time rigs and 2 part time rigs
> 
> So not sure time frame will be this year But do know If I do everything with salt one pass I will gross 6,500. I'm thinking my time frame should be around 8 hrs or less. I'll should find out Sunday calling 2-4 snow fall


96 percent of my contracts are seasonal.
So I don't bother figuring out net till the end of the season because it all depends on what we get for snow.
the other 4% that is per storm I gross around 1,200 for 3 inch and its about 4 hours plowing.

So far nothing but rain for me. My gut feeling is we are going to get slammed in January and February and get around 45 inches dumped on us and a few in march.


----------



## Triton2286

C'mon guys lets stop this. Mark is right no matter what he says and we are all wrong and uneducated.



Mark Oomkes;1676610 said:


> You do realize you are the only asking this question, don't you?


Missing a word in that sentence right Mr. Genius?


----------



## maxwellp

meezer;1677240 said:


> or another way of putting it, you refuse to leave money on the table like others in your area do with low ball pricingpayup


yeah baby!!! Ha ha


----------



## JD Dave

What site did you use to figure out lot size?


----------



## Turf Z

JD Dave;1677378 said:


> What site did you use to figure out lot size?


http://findlotsize.com/

?


----------



## JD Dave

Turf Z;1677390 said:


> http://findlotsize.com/
> 
> ?


Thanks, I've always used Google Earth and that's much easier.


----------



## Turf Z

Mark Oomkes;1675566 said:


> I bet that lot goes for $50 in Holland.


Easily. We bid a 3/4 acre church lot similar this with 135ft of sidewalk maintenance for $72/push and still got undercut by a company 2x our size in the area.

That being said the only way we could get lots like this from all the solo's around would be $50 or under and just bust ass. I've heard of people charging $35 per hour.. we have had subs with 3/4 tons and 8.5' blades approach us looking to get $45/hour for sub work.


----------



## Maleko

Triton2286;1677312 said:


> C'mon guys lets stop this. Mark is right no matter what he says and we are all wrong and uneducated.
> 
> Missing a word in that sentence right Mr. Genius?


Guess I'm the dumb one because his math still makes no sense


----------



## rjigto4oje

Turf Z;1677400 said:


> Easily. We bid a 3/4 acre church lot similar this with 135ft of sidewalk maintenance for $72/push and still got undercut by a company 2x our size in the area.
> 
> That being said the only way we could get lots like this from all the solo's around would be $50 or under and just bust ass. I've heard of people charging $35 per hour.. we have had subs with 3/4 tons and 8.5' blades approach us looking to get $45/hour for sub work.


Wait till they have something break and they don't have the funds to fix it I would not even get out of bed for that imo but some guy's are really hurting also there's a lot of property owners that are
cheap and you have to weed them out


----------



## grandview

Still comes down to area, 50 bucks is not good in some areas ,but in others it maybe a good rate in others.


----------



## poopdeckpappy

Offer salting in the contract and pricing for it. Also make a disclaimer for slip and falls and accidents due to not adhering to suggestions of contractor(you).

Pricing for that lot in my area would be between 125 to 150 per 2" push. Do not push a icy lot. It will never be worth it. If it happens offer to salt. If they don't comply out of common sense, then they are to cheap and don't care about you or their lot. At that point, drop em like a hot potato!!


----------



## KL&M Snow Div.

MSsnowplowing;1675322 said:


> per push
> 1-2 $150
> 3-4 $250
> 4-6 $350
> $100 every two inches up to 22 then it's $200 every two inches.
> 
> So you get an average of 16 events a year if you get 4 snow storms a month.
> 
> Take your base price times 16 = $2,400 and then double it to $4,800. there's your seasonal price.
> 
> Mind you, that is just for plowing only.
> 
> The price goes up for salting and sidewalks.
> 
> GV's price is good if your doing everything.


I will second this ^^


----------



## MADPlowing

edunigan39;1674970 said:


> *Bidding this restaurant for snow removal, Curious how much I should Tell him per push and how much MORE $ I should charge if the snow fall is heavier. Any help would be great! Thank You. I will be plowing it with a Boss 8'2 V Plow.
> 
> He does NOT want any Salt.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks guys.


How did you get google maps to give you the lot size?


----------



## Antlerart06

MADPlowing;1837695 said:


> How did you get google maps to give you the lot size?


Findalotsize.com


----------



## maxwellp

http://www.findlotsize.com/


----------



## Daddyworbucks

I would be happy to plow that for 150 it's a buzz and run.... But since they're being cheap on salt every 2 inches I'd plow.


----------

