# Fee's for leaving equipment on site



## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

I thought I'd start this thread because of a post Grandview made, & it got me thinking. I have not yet been asked or needed to, leave equipment on site for use only on that site.

So my queston is what do you guys think I should ask for/charge to leave equipment on site? I think it's only fair & I like the idea of charging a fee for leaving equipment on site if requested, since that equipment wont be able to make $ anywere alse.

Again I've never done this so I have no idea what the "going rate" would be. Hopfully I can figure it out before I'm asked, so I know what to say. I think this is a good topic that alot of guys have never thought about.

What do you think would be best/ideal?
should I collect & hold retainer? or
Charge a flat fee for season? or
Charge a monthly fee? or
any other ideas? 
Not that I own all these but, Please give me your thoughts on fee's for leaving,

3/4 ton with 8' blade
skid steer with snow bucket
100-150hp loader 
100-150hp ag tractor

I leave my skid on site right now & don't charge extra, but thats by my choice & I can take it whereever & whenever I want. Now how should it be if they request/contract me to leave it there?


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I've wondered the same thing. As many commercial lobs as I've bid on never once has it been required. We do keep equipment on sites but as you mentioned its always been for our own benefit. One site they do hire us because we keep the machine there and are able to pile the snow nice and high.....very interested to hear others who may do it.


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

If it is a per push account our retainer will reflect cost of ownership for:

-Equipment left onsite
-Non dedicated equipment % of use on that site * cost of ownership
-Initial ice melt procurement
-Overhead

If it is a seasonal account it is built into the price.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

We build it in on seasonal (or its to our benefit) but on per pushes do they ask for the equipment or?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

our big mall last I heard is charged 500,000 for a retainer to keep it on site. Then all equipment is charged by the hour.


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

500 grand retainer? that's insane.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Only 1 or 2 companies have the equipment for that size job. Most big construction companies don't want to work during the winter


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

............................


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

So is it only acceptable/standard to charge/hold a retainer amount, & not charge a additional fee?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

BC Handyman;1526844 said:


> So is it only acceptable/standard to charge/hold a retainer amount, & not charge a additional fee?


as to?


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

I imagine it would all depend on your market and what you can get away with. If you can get people to pay then do it.


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

That's a large mall.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

grandview;1526845 said:


> as to?


Well the way I see it is I can say to the client(not in these exact words) "to keep equipment on site, I'll need $X up front to be used towards services" or I could say "I'll charge $X for either every day,month,season, event ect.

Yes it's true about getting what I can get away with charging, but I thought there might be a "usual" way it's charged.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

grandview;1526840 said:


> Only 1 or 2 companies have the equipment for that size job. Most big construction companies don't want to work during the winter


I dont know grandview, that really doesnt look like that big of a complex to me. 500k plus hourly.... believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

BC Handyman;1526864 said:


> Well the way I see it is I can say to the client(not in these exact words) "to keep equipment on site, I'll need $X up front to be used towards services" or I could say "I'll charge $X for either every day,month,season, event ect.
> 
> Yes it's true about getting what I can get away with charging, but I thought there might be a "usual" way it's charged.


More like, if you want me to tie up my stuff on your lot,and because I can bid on anything else ,it will cost you this much for the season. Then when it snows my snow plowing rates kick in.Retainer money does not go to snowplowing services.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

newhere;1526866 said:


> I dont know grandview, that really doesnt look like that big of a complex to me. 500k plus hourly.... believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.


2001 I ran a loader there.. It's big place 15 loaders with push boxes. You have to remember,these stores are paying big dollars for maintenance.When we had a big snow they paid to have all snow removed from the mall so every spot was open for xmas season.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

MahonLawnCare;1526837 said:


> 500 grand retainer? that's insane.


Literally the funniest thing Ive ever heard....


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

If you think that is funny hows this. This company that does it is one of the largest road builders in the area,making millions. All union shop. But during the winter no union guys plow there,they are on unemployment ,They hire guys to run the equipment. He knows no one else can handle it so he can ask want he wants or parks everything till spring.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

None of the 500K retainer nonsense adds up... If you're a company that handles snow and ice management, then you know what you have for equipment and subs to handle what you have, and therefore don't need to charge an LOL "retainer PLUS hourly for your services". Not only that, but I know from some of your previous posts that your overall knowledge on the subject is limited at best.... I will bet you everything I own that that property you showed on Google Earth in no way shape or form paid out a half million dollar retainer, PLUS an hourly rate for 15 loaders with pushers for a snow season... NO WAY NO HOW NEVER HAPPENED.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

thats what im saying...... no one else can handle that lot? seriously? dont you have a cat dealership? Buy 5 loaders and a few salt trucks of your own and rent the rest. I think you could handle it.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

newhere;1526878 said:


> thats what im saying...... no one else can handle that lot? seriously? dont you have a cat dealership? Buy 5 loaders and a few salt trucks of your own and rent the rest. I think you could handle it.


LOL, exactly, and how on gods green earth do you figure 15 loaders in that lot with pushers, Its not THAT big of a lot? No skids to do detail work? No salters? BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS... LOL LOL.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

ducaticorse;1526876 said:


> None of the 500K retainer nonsense adds up... If you're a company that handles snow and ice management, then you know what you have for equipment and subs to handle what you have, and therefore don't need to charge an LOL "retainer PLUS hourly for your services". Not only that, but I know from some of your previous posts that your overall knowledge on the subject is limited at best.... I will bet you everything I own that that property you showed on Google Earth in no way shape or form paid out a half million dollar retainer, PLUS an hourly rate for 15 loaders with pushers for a snow season... NO WAY NO HOW NEVER HAPPENED.


If that's your opinion fine with me. Other guys on this site know the company that plows there so they know whats going on there.At the time they were charging 125 an hr per loader,They had to have the mall open before 9am so do the math ,do you think he is going to park and work his stuff and hassles for under 2k an hr? This mall is part of a billion dollar company with this mall having over 200 stores ,As stated there is only one or two companies that can handle this pay and you tell them what you want or you take your stuff home.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

No problem i'll get pixs of the stuff there.


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## Greenstar lawn (Jan 18, 2009)

grandview;1526883 said:


> No problem i'll get pixs of the stuff there.


Bc everyone is a know it all on this Site


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

grandview;1526882 said:


> If that's your opinion fine with me. Other guys on this site know the company that plows there so they know whats going on there.At the time they were charging 125 an hr per loader,They had to have the mall open before 9am so do the math ,do you think he is going to park and work his stuff and hassles for under 2k an hr? This mall is part of a billion dollar company with this mall having over 200 stores ,As stated there is only one or two companies that can handle this pay and you tell them what you want or you take your stuff home.


Listen, If I brought a signed contract to a bank tomorrow with those numbers, they would sign over theri personal assets to me to get my business to buy every loader available to put on that lot for the winter. Do you know what a retainer is? It is money that you pay to guarantee a service when a service is needed. SO you mean to tell me that this place payed 500 grand for the pleasure of having this companies word that they will plow their lot, then on top of that half million dollars they had to pay $1875 an hour for the loaders alone, let alone the ten tons of media to be layed per application, let alone the trucks to do it in, let alone the skids to to the detail work, let alone the tri axles to haul "every inch of snow to maximize parking spaces" let alone the army of shovelors needed to cover that area.' Yeah, that's exactly why I call enormous ******** on that one.......


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

And you can send me pictures of Patton's Army himself occupying that lot, and I still wont believe you unless you get the contract that someone on your level is very obviously not privy to. Sorry to be so harsh, but you have been officially called out on this one.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

grandview;1526869 said:


> More like, if you want me to tie up my stuff on your lot,and because I can bid on anything else ,it will cost you this much for the season. Then when it snows my snow plowing rates kick in.Retainer money does not go to snowplowing services.


 So you are charging a fee to have equipment there not a retainer



ducaticorse;1526876 said:


> None of the 500K retainer nonsense adds up... If you're a company that handles snow and ice management, then you know what you have for equipment and subs to handle what you have, and therefore don't need to charge an LOL "retainer PLUS hourly for your services". Not only that, but I know from some of your previous posts that your overall knowledge on the subject is limited at best.... I will bet you everything I own that that property you showed on Google Earth in no way shape or form paid out a half million dollar retainer, PLUS an hourly rate for 15 loaders with pushers for a snow season... NO WAY NO HOW NEVER HAPPENED.





ducaticorse;1526881 said:


> LOL, exactly, and how on gods green earth do you figure 15 loaders in that lot with pushers, Its not THAT big of a lot? No skids to do detail work? No salters? BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS... LOL LOL.





grandview;1526882 said:


> If that's your opinion fine with me. Other guys on this site know the company that plows there so they know whats going on there.At the time they were charging 125 an hr per loader,They had to have the mall open before 9am so do the math ,do you think he is going to park and work his stuff and hassles for under 2k an hr? This mall is part of a billion dollar company with this mall having over 200 stores ,As stated there is only one or two companies that can handle this pay and you tell them what you want or you take your stuff home.





ducaticorse;1526888 said:


> Listen, If I brought a signed contract to a bank tomorrow with those numbers, they would sign over theri personal assets to me to get my business to buy every loader available to put on that lot for the winter. Do you know what a retainer is? It is money that you pay to guarantee a service when a service is needed. SO you mean to tell me that this place payed 500 grand for the pleasure of having this companies word that they will plow their lot, then on top of that half million dollars they had to pay $1875 an hour for the loaders alone, let alone the ten tons of media to be layed per application, let alone the trucks to do it in, let alone the skids to to the detail work, let alone the tri axles to haul "every inch of snow to maximize parking spaces" let alone the army of shovelors needed to cover that area.' Yeah, that's exactly why I call enormous ******** on that one.......





ducaticorse;1526891 said:


> And you can send me pictures of Patton's Army himself occupying that lot, and I still wont believe you unless you get the contract that someone on your level is very obviously not privy to. Sorry to be so harsh, but you have been officially called out on this one.


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

In my area you couldn't get 500k to plow that all year. I think the mall here is bigger than that and it don't get 500k. We can't charge anything for a retainer, it's just the cost of doing business.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

In michigan i think we have maybe 2 or 3 HUNDRED companies that could handle that no problem!


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

PhilFromErie;1526904 said:


> In my area you couldn't get 500k to plow that all year. I think the mall here is bigger than that and it don't get 500k. We can't charge anything for a retainer, it's just the cost of doing business.


Don't feel bad Phil, The numbers regarding the above conversation are based purely on fantasy and have ZERO bearing on real world business whatsoever.....


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

I know that mall. I would plow it for 500k and be pretty content.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

I love the part where grandview says "the construction companies are union and they don't like to work during the winter so they all go on unemployment". Yeah, makes sense when there is half a million dollars of free cash being pissed away on "retainers" lol. I love this site....


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

PhilFromErie;1526911 said:


> I know that mall. I would plow it for 500k and be pretty content.


Would and could are two very different things....


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

ducaticorse;1526918 said:


> Would and could are two very different things....


Pretty sure I'd have them both covered.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

So forgeting about the $500g's what do you guys think?
Cost of business?
Charge a fee per piece of equipment? On top of per visit/hr rate
Charge a nonrefundable "retainer" to be used towards work?


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

newhere;1526907 said:


> In michigan i think we have maybe 2 or 3 HUNDRED companies that could handle that no problem!


Lmao if it were in Michigan, I know a guy(dont know if I can call a company) that would bid on it, despite the fact that he doesn't have the equip, knowhow, insurance ect.
:laughing:


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

I think it's a nice thing to be able to charge it, I can't. I have heard of guys getting away with charging a mobe fee of 4 or 5k for a big job. If you go that far why not just sell them on a seasonal?


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

PhilFromErie;1526920 said:


> Pretty sure I'd have them both covered.


Yeah, I didnt mean anything negative by that. What do you think on the lot, as a seasonal, no salt included based on that areas average snowfall? And what equipment/personal would you put on for say a four inch storm?


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Maybe they would pay that because they are sick of the amatuers who think they can do it with 1 loader, 3 pickups, and a couple of call in shovelers? Maybe they have a higher standard then what your company can provide?


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't really know it well, just from shopping there a few times I'm not from buffalo but kinda close. I'd say 2-3 trucks and 4-5 loaders and a skid for loading docks etc. should get the place done in 4-5 hours. 500k would be a good dollar especially since it don't snow any more in the Great Lakes region.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

BC Handyman;1526922 said:


> Lmao if it were in Michigan, I know a guy(dont know if I can call a company) that would bid on it, despite the fact that he doesn't have the equip, knowhow, insurance ect.
> :laughing:


That's not even close to funny!


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

BC Handyman;1526921 said:


> So forgeting about the $500g's what do you guys think?
> Cost of business?
> Charge a fee per piece of equipment? On top of per visit/hr rate
> Charge a nonrefundable "retainer" to be used towards work?


First off, how can you possibly forget about the 500 thousand dollar retainer? That is an epic statement if I've ever heard one.

And on a site like that you dont charger per piece, you charge a seasonal rate or you charge per increment. Whatever you need to put on site equipment wise you deal with. Client gets a price and the perimeters of service.

If it's a season price, a first month payment is usually expected upon signing of the contract.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

terrapro;1526929 said:


> Maybe they would pay that because they are sick of the amatuers who think they can do it with 1 loader, 3 pickups, and a couple of call in shovelers? Maybe they have a higher standard then what your company can provide?


I know you were joking with what you just listed for equipment, but it was still a ridiculous post, and worthless regarding this topic of discussion. What ******* would try and do that lot with what you one day dream of of having for for equipment and employees?


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

PhilFromErie;1526930 said:


> I don't really know it well, just from shopping there a few times I'm not from buffalo but kinda close. I'd say 2-3 trucks and 4-5 loaders and a skid for loading docks etc. should get the place done in 4-5 hours. 500k would be a good dollar especially since it don't snow any more in the Great Lakes region.


I think you may be underestimating needed equipment and personal. And you didnt even touch on snow hauling.

PS huge fan of Gordon Lightfoot, and the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald..


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

3 trucks 5 loaders I really do not think would have a problem there. If I remember right the lot is perfect flat, 20 foot box territory. Hauling would be an extra charge, of course.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Do you guys have the contract yet? Sounds like you could save them a ton of coin!


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

PhilFromErie;1526942 said:


> 3 trucks 5 loaders I really do not think would have a problem there. If I remember right the lot is perfect flat, 20 foot box territory. Hauling would be an extra charge, of course.


Im good with your trucks and loaders for sure. I'd add a skid to make two for the detail and a mini with a plow for the sidewalks plus 5-10 shovelors for steps/fire exits/doorways/handiramps etc


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

terrapro;1526944 said:


> Do you guys have the contract yet? Sounds like you could save them a ton of coin!


500K retainer? LOL how could you NOT? It's so absurd, it's almost a waste of time (besides the entertainment benefit) even discussing......


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

ducaticorse;1526945 said:


> Im good with your trucks and loaders for sure. I'd add a skid to make two for the detail and a mini with a plow for the sidewalks plus 5-10 shovelors for steps/fire exits/doorways/handiramps etc


yea, when I gave my opinion on that I wasn't including anything for the sidewalks. Is this the sight that the OP was even bidding on?


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

PhilFromErie;1526948 said:


> yea, when I gave my opinion on that I wasn't including anything for the sidewalks. Is this the sight that the OP was even bidding on?


lol, no......


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

So basically the entire question and discussion of a retainer fee for leaving equipment on site turned into hypothetical bidding on a mall that doesn't even matter.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

terrapro;1526932 said:


> That's not even close to funny!


Lmao, I think it's hilarious! I can imagine the phone call or email "well I only got 1 tuck & it's a little rough, buy if you give me the contract I'll buy another used B.O.S. truck & a loader, my buddy's will drive the other truck & loader for $20/hr" :laughing:



ducaticorse;1526936 said:


> First off, how can you possibly forget about the 500 thousand dollar retainer? That is an epic statement if I've ever heard one.
> 
> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about a site that big, but say a mall or something thats 1/4-1/6th that size.
And yes MOST large sites are seasonal what if a per push site wanted it?

Look what you started Grandview, you posted a pic of a huge mall with a huge number & now everybody is unfocased as little Jimmy that forgot to take his ritalin


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

PhilFromErie;1526951 said:


> So basically the entire question and discussion of a retainer fee for leaving equipment on site turned into hypothetical bidding on a mall that doesn't even matter.


lol, exactly, nail on head, I'm not even bidding, I'm just asking how guys do it:laughing:


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

BC Handyman;1526953 said:


> Lmao, I think it's hilarious! I can imagine the phone call or email "well I only got 1 tuck & it's a little rough, buy if you give me the contract I'll buy another used B.O.S. truck & a loader, my buddy's will drive the other truck & loader for $20/hr" :laughing:
> 
> I'm not talking about a site that big, but say a mall or something thats 1/4-1/6th that size.
> And yes MOST large sites are seasonal what if a per push site wanted it?
> ...


Per push? To each his own. I personally dont believe in taking money from a client if services haven't been rendered. A "per push" is an equal gamble for both sides, and I don't need to explain why. There are zero reason besides cash flow problems to charge a retainer on a per push or a ******** hourly rate as some Einstein imagined above. And yes, this thread was hijacked, but I'm sure you can understand why....


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

Seriously though one of my sites this year is about what your talking about 8 acres or so. Per push contract, loader dedicated to site. I don't have a retainer or anything like that. Id like to but when no one else really charges one its hard to be the first.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

PhilFromErie;1526957 said:


> Seriously though one of my sites this year is about what your talking about 8 acres or so. Per push contract, loader dedicated to site. I don't have a retainer or anything like that. Id like to but when no one else really charges one its hard to be the first.


BECAUSE THERE IS ZERO REASON TO CHARGE A RETAINER.... THAT IS WHAT A CONTRACT IS FOR. High priced criminal defense attorney's get paid a retainer, so when you are a lucrative criminal and F up you are guaranteed their services. When you sign a contract to manage snow and ice for a season, you take monthly installments and sometimes a balloon at the end of the season. When you price per push, you sign a contract to render services. You get paid when it snows, they dont pay when it doesnt. I still cant get over the half million dollar retainer on that lot. I'll be telling that story all week....


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

ducaticorse;1526956 said:


> Per push? To each his own. I personally dont believe in taking money from a client if services haven't been rendered. A "per push" is an equal gamble for both sides, and I don't need to explain why. There are zero reason besides cash flow problems to charge a retainer on a per push or a ******** hourly rate as some Einstein imagined above. And yes, this thread was hijacked, but I'm sure you can understand why....


I used to believe as you do. Then I started talking to the Canadians, what they say makes sence. We provide a necessay weather dependent service, if it doesn't snow, you still accrue real costs (equipment payments, insurance, etc.)
We need to remember this, as you get into bigger sites those costs multiply quickly, yes they are all relative but non the less very real. After last winter my mind changed real fast, I restructured my contract portfolio for this year. We has a school district that was straight hourly last year, 2 loaders, bobcat & 3 trucks their bill didn't even cover the one loaders payments for a year, I figure it COST me about 30K for the privilege of being on call for them. We were getting it done in 3.5 hours & they wanted almost double what we had in equipment there too, no retainer, so request the world, everyone wants to put close to a million in equipment on an account to bring in 50K....right, oh and they salt it themselves & have the town do removal work. Their average yearly budget (public record) would be marginally profitable at best, I tried it a year, for us it doesn't work, even with older equipment the numbers wouldn't work.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

ducaticorse;1526959 said:


> When you sign a contract to manage snow and ice for a season, you take monthly installments and sometimes a balloon at the end of the season. When you price per push, you sign a contract to render services. You get paid when it snows, they dont pay when it doesnt.


What is your % of seasonal contracts vs per push?



ducaticorse;1526956 said:


> I personally dont believe in taking money from a client if services haven't been rendered.
> 
> Oh bull...You certainly do on every seasonal payment you receive.
> 
> A "per push" is an equal gamble for both sides, and I don't need to explain why.


Please do explain. How do you figure?Does all the up front time and costs of procurement, training, preparation and level of readiness to service the site change somehow whether it's a per push vs seasonal agreement?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Since I don't know where your from or how long you been plowing or how much snow you get ,you probably speaking from experience from plowing a gas station.I'm going to stick with the mall thing for a bit. What is the worst thing that could had if you you don't get your stuff plowed out? angry owner,maybe an employee has to park in the street . This place is the largest in the Buffalo area and serves a good part of Canada. You may or may not know this ,but each store pays rent and a maintenance fee to the mall. So come winter time these stores do not want any excuse as to why its not plowed out.During xmas season millions of dollars are spent there per day. So again the mall will pay anything it takes to keep it open.As I said I plowed there in 2000-01 season .Mall did the walks,the company was only responsible for the lot and roadways.There were no skid steers used there loader and push box. The boxes were not even chained onto the bucket because they wanted the buckets to be useable .I don't know how many times i left the box up on the snow pile and had to use the bucket to pull it down.Your right I could rent a couple of loaders and bid the mall, but the will WC Field me.This company had been plowing it for 20 yrs now.


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

Wow. You guys desperately need snow!


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I believe you GV, my wife tells me it's like 700 acres and she usually underestimates..........


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

TCLA;1526991 said:


> What is your % of seasonal contracts vs per push?
> 
> Please do explain. How do you figure?Does all the up front time and costs of procurement, training, preparation and level of readiness to service the site change somehow whether it's a per push vs seasonal agreement?


Omg... 
A seasonal price is a set fee for services to be guaranteed. This is the closest thing to a "retainer" that has been mentioned on this thread. You and the client are hedging that acertain amount of snow fall will fall and agreeing on a set price. In its simplest explanation, it is similar to buying insurance. The service rendered there is peace of mind for the client that A. They never have to worry about being over budget on snow and ice services, ( -blizzaard clause) and B. They know that you will be there to provide the service if need be. So you see, there is intact a service being rendered by the contractor even if it doesn't snow.

A per push price is, well......... Exactly that.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

grandview;1526997 said:


> Since I don't know where your from or how long you been plowing or how much snow you get ,you probably speaking from experience from plowing a gas station.I'm going to stick with the mall thing for a bit. What is the worst thing that could had if you you don't get your stuff plowed out? angry owner,maybe an employee has to park in the street . This place is the largest in the Buffalo area and serves a good part of Canada. You may or may not know this ,but each store pays rent and a maintenance fee to the mall. So come winter time these stores do not want any excuse as to why its not plowed out.During xmas season millions of dollars are spent there per day. So again the mall will pay anything it takes to keep it open.As I said I plowed there in 2000-01 season .Mall did the walks,the company was only responsible for the lot and roadways.There were no skid steers used there loader and push box. The boxes were not even chained onto the bucket because they wanted the buckets to be useable .I don't know how many times i left the box up on the snow pile and had to use the bucket to pull it down.Your right I could rent a couple of loaders and bid the mall, but the will WC Field me.This company had been plowing it for 20 yrs now.


Gas stations need loving too GV...


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

BC Handyman;1526921 said:


> So forgeting about the $500g's & the mall what do you guys think?
> Cost of business?
> Charge a fee per piece of equipment? On top of per visit/hr rate
> Charge a nonrefundable "retainer" to be used towards work?


I do strongly believe that there should be some sort of additional cost to the customer if its requested. It's easy enough to build it into the seasonal or per push prices, but what stucture should it take or what is accepted/acceptable?

then when I figure out how to charge, I can figure out how much I need to charge.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Ok getting back to the original question, if I understand this correctly, if you are leaving equipment on sight the cost of a "retainer" should be included in your seasonal pricing. If its a per push account the price of the push should have a little extra built into it to cover said cost of this retainer. I keep thinking I'd like to bid some commercial lots but a lot of the guys around here have beat the price down so much I'm not sure if I could even make money on some of this stuff. I swear these guys plow big commercial lots around here at cost just so they can say "hey look at me, I plow this place!"


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

I see you have a focus problem. I didn't ask for your interpretation of a retainer....I asked you what % of seasonal contracts vs per push contracts you have, and to explain your following statement....



ducaticorse;1526956 said:


> I personally dont believe in taking money from a client if services haven't been rendered.


If you only have per push clients, your statement now makes sense.

If you do have seasonal clients, you certainly do take money from them for services not rendered when it doesn't snow.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

peteo1;1527018 said:


> Ok getting back to the original question, if I understand this correctly, if you are leaving equipment on sight the cost of a "retainer" should be included in your seasonal pricing. If its a per push account the price of the push should have a little extra built into it to cover said cost of this retainer. I keep thinking I'd like to bid some commercial lots but a lot of the guys around here have beat the price down so much I'm not sure if I could even make money on some of this stuff. I swear these guys plow big commercial lots around here at cost just so they can say "hey look at me, I plow this place!"


So who is to say these sites shouldnt charge a storage fee to the contractor for leaving the equipment on site. Logistics of trucking equipment back and forth is no bueno. I personally keep a K-120 on my ups site, and if I had enough bobcats, I would leave one there too. I would RATHER leave my stuff on site if I had enough to go around, and I'm certainly not going to charge extra to do it.

I understand trying to squeeze every last dime out of the client, and I guess that is ok if you can get it.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

TCLA;1527020 said:


> I see you have a focus problem. I didn't ask for your interpretation of a retainer....I asked you what % of seasonal contracts vs per push contracts you have, and to explain your following statement....
> 
> If you only have per push clients, your statement now makes sense.
> 
> If you do have seasonal clients, you certainly do take money from them for services not rendered when it doesn't snow.


TCLA

I don't know how I can explain this to you in more simple terms other than what I already wrote, so here it is again.....

A seasonal price is a set fee for services to be guaranteed. This is the closest thing to a "retainer" that has been mentioned on this thread. You and the client are hedging that acertain amount of snow fall will fall and agreeing on a set price. In its simplest explanation, it is similar to buying INSURANCE. The service rendered there is peace of mind for the client that A. They never have to worry about being over budget on snow and ice services, ( -blizzaard clause) and B. They know that you will be there to provide the service if need be. So you see, there is in fact a service being rendered by the contractor even if it doesn't snow.

SO AGAIN, YOU ARE PROVIDING A SERVICE EVEN WHEN IT DOESN'T SNOW AND YOU GET PAID ACCORDINGLY

Please please please tell me what you don't understand about this?

And to answer your question my percentage of seasonal contracts is roughly 28%


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

yes it is big!...lots of sidewalks and elevated parking, not something you do in 2 hours and go home


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

For now we'll just forget about your ability to focus. Lets just run with what you want to focus on....



ducaticorse;1527024 said:


> A seasonal price is a set fee for services to be guaranteed. This is the closest thing to a "retainer" that has been mentioned on this thread.


No it's not, this is....



BC Handyman;1526864 said:


> I can say to the client(not in these exact words) "to keep equipment on site, I'll need $X up front to be used towards services"


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

In another attempt to get everybody to forget about this mall that is irrelivant to my questons.

So sofar I'm guessing all this equates to:
2 votes for cost of business
2 votes for charging a fee

Am I right?
what do you guys think about charging a mandatory minimum, like as in a seasonal price.
EXAMPLE: I charge $500 extra ontop of my per push price so a truck can sit there. So I charge $500 & then X per push. With the $500 being nonrefundable even if it dont snow all year.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

TCLA;1527037 said:


> For now we'll just forget about your ability to focus. Lets just run with what you want to focus on....
> 
> No it's not, this is....


I think you meant to type "lack of ability to focus" but I got what you meant....

And the rest of what you just posted is a half dozen in one hand and six in the other.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

BC Handyman;1527040 said:


> In another attempt to get everybody to forget about this mall that is irrelivant to my questons.
> 
> So sofar I'm guessing all this equates to:
> 2 votes for cost of business
> ...


Just to be clear, the customer is requesting and willing to pay for idle equipment to be on his lot even though it is totally unnecessary to do so correct? And I'm not trying to be a wise ass here, I'm just asking for clarification as to A. why it's being left there B. why you are charging for it to be left there

And I wrote this earlier, but I'll post it again

So who is to say these sites shouldnt charge a storage fee to the contractor for leaving the equipment on site. Logistics of trucking equipment back and forth is no bueno. I personally keep a K-120 on my ups site, and if I had enough bobcats, I would leave one there too. I would RATHER leave my stuff on site if I had enough to go around, and I'm certainly not going to charge extra to do it.

I understand trying to squeeze every last dime out of the client, and I guess that is ok if you can get it.
Edit/Delete Message


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

ducaticorse;1527042 said:


> And the rest of what you just posted is a half dozen in one hand and six in the other.


Not really, your talking about a seasonal were you got the "equipment sitting fee"(if you charge 1) built into a seasonal price that wont change, were as I'm saying I'll charge you X retainer, that can be used towards a per push/visit, & if it less snow no $ back to you, but if it more then retainer I charge you more. Just a guarenteed amount so you can guarentee that the equipment is available for their site.


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

I have thought about proposing kind if a half seasonal half per push. Say a lot would be 50 k per year or a g per push. I'd say 25k seasonal and 500 per push. I thought it might be like the best of both worlds. I never did try it on anyone though to see how it would be received.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

we have equipment on site and allowed to plug it in, onsite is worked into the price, however as long as the main site is done we move to do other close sites, with people that live close response during the day is quicker this way


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

BC Handyman;1527048 said:


> Not really, your talking about a seasonal were you got the "equipment sitting fee"(if you charge 1) built into a seasonal price that wont change, were as I'm saying I'll charge you X retainer, that can be used towards a per push/visit, & if it less snow no $ back to you, but if it more then retainer I charge you more. Just a guarenteed amount so you can guarentee that the equipment is available for their site.


I get it...

Now I ask this.

Why would you not be able to provide the equipment and services to the client if he chose not to have your equipment sitting on sight, and not paying a non-refundable fee to guarantee equipment availability if he just decided to hire you at a normal per push/per storm/hourly contract? Or do you not offer that type of service?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

ducaticorse;1527042 said:


> And the rest of what you just posted is a half dozen in one hand and six in the other.


Your double talk shows that you have no clue between the difference in retainer and a seasonal agreement.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

TCLA;1527037 said:


> No it's not, this is....


Thank you, I thought thats what a retainer isThumbs Up



ducaticorse;1527046 said:


> Just to be clear, the customer is requesting and willing to pay for idle equipment to be on his lot even though it is totally unnecessary to do so correct? And I'm not trying to be a wise ass here, I'm just asking for clarification as to A. why it's being left there B. why you are charging for it to be left there
> 
> And I wrote this earlier, but I'll post it again
> 
> So who is to say these sites shouldnt charge a storage fee to the contractor for leaving the equipment on site. they could try, heck I might even pay it if it's worth it for meLogistics of trucking equipment back and forth is no bueno and if I had enough bobcats, I would leave one there too. I would RATHER leave my stuff on site if I had enough to go around,I too would do this if I could without breaking the bank and I'm certainly not going to charge extra to do it. Well I dont think we can if its our choice


I think that if not requested by customer, we contractors leave things on site for convienence and to save travel costs. But if we didnt plan on this & we are requested to do so, dont you think you should charge an extra fee?


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

TCLA;1527055 said:


> Your double talk shows that you have no clue between the difference in retainer and a seasonal agreement.


And youre an IDIOT if you think a service is not still being rendered by providing a seasonal price even if there ends up being no snow that year. So I guess we're at a draw.:waving:


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

BC Handyman;1526767 said:


> ... leave equipment on site for use only on that site.
> 
> So my queston is what do you guys think I should ask for/charge to leave equipment on site? I think it's only fair & I like the idea of charging a fee for leaving equipment on site if requested, since that equipment wont be able to make $ anywhere else.
> 
> ...


If your customer wants you to leave equipment on site dedicated to their site only, then they have to pay a seasonal amount equivalent to what you would like that piece of equipment to earn in the season. For example. we generally think that one of our front-end loaders (e.g. JD644E or such) should be able to work on $35,000-$40,000 of contracts in a season. Therefore, a customer who wishes one dedicated piece of equipment must pay at least that amount, more if other non-dedicated equipment is used on site to perform all the work such as clearing of walks, etc.

That means, for us anyway, seasonal contracts. There are a few conditions to our leaving a unit on site - e.g. secure, accessible parking space, power for a block-heater plug-in, etc.

Just per our experience over the past 40 years of snow-clearing work.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

BC Handyman;1527061 said:


> Thank you, I thought thats what a retainer isThumbs Up
> 
> I think that if not requested by customer, we contractors leave things on site for convienence and to save travel costs. But if we didnt plan on this & we are requested to do so, dont you think you should charge an extra fee?


Yes, if a client is specifically asking that equipment be left on site, and you are not allowed to use it for any other site I would agree that an extra charge is valid.

I believe it to be an unnecessary expense that the client is bringing upon himself, but to each his own...


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

ducaticorse;1527054 said:


> Now I ask this.
> 
> Why would you not be able to provide the equipment and services to the client if he chose not to have your equipment sitting on sight, and not paying a non-refundable fee to guarantee equipment availability if he just decided to hire you at a normal per push/per storm/hourly contract? Or do you not offer that type of service?


Not saying I would not be able to provide the service, maybe the customer is just anal or peraniod that I wont be able to drive in the storm, roads closed, breakdowns ect. you never know, what some peoples reasons could be.

lol, this is not exactly how I envisioned this thread, but I gotta admit it's entertaining as heck :laughing: Good info will come of it......I hope


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

terrapro;1526932 said:


> That's not even close to funny!


Sure it is. We all know guys like that. Some of us may even have been that guy 30 years ago.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

BC Handyman;1527070 said:


> Not saying I would not be able to provide the service, maybe the customer is just anal or peraniod that I wont be able to drive in the storm, roads closed, breakdowns ect. you never know, what some peoples reasons could be.
> 
> lol, this is not exactly how I envisioned this thread, but I gotta admit it's entertaining as heck :laughing: Good info will come of it......I hope


I would love to post up all 3 trucks, 2 bobcats and the komatsu and get a check for what their production rates are all season just to have them on site all winter and have it be done with. Wet dream in fact. Maybe I'm just jealous......


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

Wilnip;1527000 said:


> Wow. You guys desperately need snow!


They certainly need something to entertain themselves.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

BC Handyman;1527061 said:


> I think that if not requested by customer, we contractors leave things on site for convienence and to save travel costs.
> 
> Yes, of course.
> 
> But if we didnt plan on this & we are requested to do so, dont you think you should charge an extra fee?


No. I don't think so.

Why would there even be such a request? The equipment required to service the site should determine whether or not you stage on site...


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Landcare - Mont;1527065 said:


> If your customer wants you to leave equipment on site dedicated to their site only, then they have to pay a seasonal amount equivalent to what you would like that piece of equipment to earn in the season. For example. we generally think that one of our front-end loaders (e.g. JD644E or such) should be able to work on $35,000-$40,000 of contracts in a season. Therefore, a customer who wishes one dedicated piece of equipment must pay at least that amount, more if other non-dedicated equipment is used on site to perform all the work such as clearing of walks, etc.
> 
> That means, for us anyway, seasonal contracts. There are a few conditions to our leaving a unit on site - e.g. secure, accessible parking space, power for a block-heater plug-in, etc.
> 
> Just per our experience over the past 40 years of snow-clearing work.


Thats what I was thinking, it should be a sizable amount compared to what the equipment could be making. Now I dont think I'd charge what I think the equipment could make in a year, cause there is no guarentee that it would have the jobs to fill the space, but still a good chunk cause it wont be making $ anywhere else.



Landcare - Mont;1527072 said:


> Sure it is.LOL Thanks We all know guys like that.Well all on this site should know atleast 1 guy Some of us may even have been that guy 30 years ago.


True enough, most of us started on a shoestring budget.........Holy sheeze it's puking snow, & I've been BSing on here & didnt notice, talk to all later


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

Hey BC - it's Sunday. What are you doing up so early, anyhow?


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Landcare - Mont;1527086 said:


> Hey BC - it's Sunday. What are you doing up so early, anyhow?


I had to go apply melt at Safeway(grocery store) before 7am, I think I still got a few min till I got to leave, snow just starting to stick.


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

BC Handyman;1527088 said:


> I had to go apply melt at Safeway(grocery store) before 7am, I think I still got a few min till I got to leave, snow just starting to stick.


Good luck with that. Yesterday, our high was -9; right now, it's +6, heading for +12 by Tuesday and high of -1 on Thursday. December ... who can predict?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

ducaticorse;1527062 said:


> And youre an IDIOT if you think a service is not still being rendered by providing a seasonal price even if there ends up being no snow that year.
> 
> Who mentioned anything about this aspect? That focus thing is haunting you again.
> 
> So I guess we're at a draw.:waving:


:laughing:


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Seasonal thinking on a scope this big....someone gets screwed and hope it balances out. A retainer acknowledges the scope of delivery and preparedness needed and pays per event. Excellent solution for both parties. IMO


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

Not reading 5 pages of bickering but i think a good starting point would be a skid steer or truck monthly rental rate from hertz or something. If you want to give them a break since it may also be servicing snow then thats up to you


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

alldayrj;1527173 said:


> Not reading 5 pages of bickering but i think a good starting point would be a skid steer or truck monthly rental rate from hertz or something. If you want to give them a break since it may also be servicing snow then thats up to you


Could start with that but remember to add in all your operator, attachments and overhead costs, remembering that you put out $100,000 upfront to buy the tractor/loader/truck, etc. That's kind of what you should be doing to figure out how many $'s of work you should sign up for each piece of equipment every year anyhow.

I'm a little biased anyhow. We're 100 percent seasonal with salting, hauling, etc. extra on the majority of our contracts. That's the way It's done here in La Belle Province. (OK - in our little corner of it)


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Her's another take. 
Per push,when I get there I'll plow.

Seasonal,paid up front to make sure I'm on the prefered list and are close to 1st plowed based on timing of snow.

Retainer, you pay to have stuff there ready to go ,not having equipment somewhere and on it's way. And they cover any lost money that the equipment could be used elsewhere.

Also ,I don't throw everything on on 1st post I like to hold back. The mall if Comes from my cousin who does all cutting mulching and hardscapes . Very close to the owners of the plowing company. This mall is funny,this year they planted new trees and he wanted to put the water bags on them,mall said no didn't like the way they looked,They wanted someone to water daily their trees .Mall paid for 2 guys to be there just watering.

Back to retainer,I do seasonal only ,yet some guys couldn't sell them to save their life.Yet you sit somewhere telling another part of the country that it can't be done wrong or can't happen.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

ducaticorse;1527062 said:


> And youre an IDIOT if you think a service is not still being rendered by providing a seasonal price even if there ends up being no snow that year. So I guess we're at a draw.:waving:


You do realize that more dribbles off the end of TCLA's blades in one one storm then you've plowed in your life?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

From a country bid form.

h vehicle listed on the Equipment Form for which is eligible for a retainer/performance
fee shall be subject to inspection by County personnel. If there are any defects in the
Contractor's equipment and/or it fails the calibration test, the Contractor shall not receive any
retainer/performance fee until the equipment has passed inspection and the calibration test.
The owner/operator of the equipment shall attend a mandatory winter maintenance meeting.
The District Superintendent shall establish the date, time, and place of the meeting. The
meeting will be conducted prior to November 20, 2012, and will be held after normal working
hours to minimize inconvenience to the Contractor. Attendance at this meeting shall be
mandatory. If a retainer/performance fee is payable, it shall be paid in two (2) equal
payments. An invoice for the first payment shall be submitted by the Contractor after
attendance at the mandatory winter maintenance meeting. Remember, only Contractors who
have submitted all the above referenced paperwork and photographs by the due date of
October 19, 2012, and paperwork/photographs are approved, are eligible for the
retainer/performance fee. All invoices for the first payment shall be submitted by the
Contractor prior to December 14, 2012. An invoice for the remaining retainer/performance
fee payment shall be submitted after March 31, 2013, but no later than April 30, 2013. Only
equipment that received the first half of the retainer/performance fee shall be eligible for the
{00087500.DOC; 1}Term & Conditions 8/31/2011-TF
Attachment A
second half payment. Retainer payments are not automatically generated by the County. The
Contractor must submit an invoice for each payment.*
RETAINER/PERFORMANCE FEE SCHEDULE
¾ & 1-Ton, 4x4 Pickup Trucks $630 (2 payments @ $315)
with owner-supplied snow plow and approved spreader
1-Ton Dump/Flatbed Trucks (dual rear wheel) $750 (2 payments @$375)
3-4 Cubic Yard Capacity
Single Axle Dump Truck $1000 (2 payments @ $500)
Tandem/Tri Axle Truck $1000 (2 payments @ $500)*
4. For each piece of equipment listed on the 2012-2013 Equipment Form, three (3) current
photographs (Front, Rear, Side view) shall be submitted by the Contractor clearly
showing the vehicle. The Contractor shall also submit at least one (1) photograph of any
proposed Contractor-owned equipment (plow/spreader). Pictures may be submitted
electronically to the Buyer, Stephen Ports at [email protected] Please make sure
photographs are marked with the pictured equipments corresponding Item # on the
equipment form.
5. Hourly rates have been established for equipment carrying Contractor-supplied snow plows
and salt spreaders. Rates also have been established for Contractors carrying County-owned
plows and salt spreaders. See Attachment B. In the event a piece of equipment falls into
multiple categories, the County may inspect the piece of equipment and determine the
appropriate category. The County's decision on the prevailing category and corresponding
rate shall be final. Hourly rates include operator, fuel, oil, cell phone, insurance, overhead,
profit, and incidentals. An operational cell phone shall be required for all snow removal

In a nut they are paying a retainer for equipment then an hourly rate to plow.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Landcare - Mont;1527065 said:


> If your customer wants you to leave equipment on site dedicated to their site only, then they have to pay a seasonal amount equivalent to what you would like that piece of equipment to earn in the season. For example. we generally think that one of our front-end loaders (e.g. JD644E or such) should be able to work on $35,000-$40,000 of contracts in a season. Therefore, a customer who wishes one dedicated piece of equipment must pay at least that amount, more if other non-dedicated equipment is used on site to perform all the work such as clearing of walks, etc.
> 
> That means, for us anyway, seasonal contracts. There are a few conditions to our leaving a unit on site - e.g. secure, accessible parking space, power for a block-heater plug-in, etc.
> 
> Just per our experience over the past 40 years of snow-clearing work.


That's exactly how we figure it out.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

JD Dave;1527203 said:


> You do realize that more dribbles off the end of TCLA's blades in one one storm then you've plowed in your life?


LOL I was thinking the same, this new guy has no idea who he is talking **** to.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

Does any body know what the BLAST button is for on a salt spreader?:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

Burkartsplow;1527427 said:


> Does any body know what the BLAST button is for on a salt spreader?:laughing::laughing::laughing:


I didnt type it like that. I was looking at putting the TG06 on one of my trucks. Being unfamiliar with the unit when I was speaking with the seller, he told me it had a blast button on it, and I didnt understand his explanation. But I'm glad you got a kick out of it...

BTW nice stobes on your truck.. I bet all the girls forget about how small your prik is when they see those...... Its so funny to see strobe kits listed as equipment lol...


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

I read most of this thread on my phone earlier.

Even if the number for the retainer on the mall is inflated, I still wouldn't be surprised if it's close to 500k for the retainer.

Here's why.

1.)If this mall is huge, then they would need it cleared out ASAP after a storm. If a heavy snow falls and stops 2 hours before opening, then those 15 loaders come in handy.

2.)Besides, it's Buffalo New York, there can be some crazy snow falls in short periods of time, or even for extended duration due to the lake effect.

3.)I'm sure that this mall has figured the amount of money that could be potentially lost to it's clients if the lot isn't effectively cleared. They've probably got that number figured to the minute. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it's close to 100k per hour in lost revenue, especially if it's during the holiday season. Or, they've figured the amount of customers lost due to the lack of adequate parking.

4.) If the mall is generating that much foot traffic, then I'm guessing having the lot effectively clear would minimize any potential lawsuits. In one storm, I wouldn't be surprised if you had 2-4 slip and fall claims that could equal or exceed 500k in payouts, so having the lot cleared as fast as possible minimizes this risk.

I'm not sure how much State Farm pays for there two major headquarters here in Bloomington, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's 500k or better a season for all their lots and parking garages. Two companies handle the two largest locations. Each lot is cleared in about 2 hours along will all snow hauled off to empty fields around their biggest location out more in the open.

One company being the largest road contractors in the area, and another being the largest asphalt company in the area. These two companies are the only ones with the equipment and sub-contractors available to do the job that State Farm requires.




............


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

ducaticorse

BTW nice stobes on your truck.. I bet all the girls forget about how small your prik is when they see those...... Its so funny to see strobe kits listed as equipment lol...[/QUOTE]

They help make me more money, did you not know that?


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

Burkartsplow;1527504 said:


> ducaticorse
> 
> BTW nice stobes on your truck.. I bet all the girls forget about how small your prik is when they see those...... Its so funny to see strobe kits listed as equipment lol...


They help make me more money, did you not know that?[/QUOTE]

It's akin to listing that your pickups have headlights... Totally irrelevant. You can't take on more accounts with all your pretty strobes, you can however, have a real perty truck all lit up like a Christmas tree.....


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

ducaticorse;1527569 said:


> you can however, have a real perty truck all lit up like a Christmas tree.....


Tiss the season

So I think it's agreed that one should charge an additional fee if it's requested to leave equipment on site, whether is a per push or a seasonal, only diff would be that with seasonal it's built into price & per push would be an addiotional fee.


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## PALS Landscapin (Dec 3, 2011)

They help make me more money, did you not know that?[/QUOTE]

It's akin to listing that your pickups have headlights... Totally irrelevant. You can't take on more accounts with all your pretty strobes, you can however, have a real perty truck all lit up like a Christmas tree.....

First off you need to learn how to spell. Second you said that its crazy to have a $500,000 retainer. If you been snow plowing long enough you should know how much a loader cost do you have a clue. I rent loaders for a couple of my sites and each one cost me about $4000.00 a month. Your also getting on a guy that has strobes in his work truck, your suppose to be a landscaper and you don't even know what the blast button is on a spreader. Do your homework before you start busting on people.


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

You should just try asking the question again next week in a new thread, may be you'll have better luck. If it snows soon everyone will be in a better mood.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Maybe I missed something but- a retainer is a prepayment or a series of payments made in advance to procure the services of a party. It's not free money or a bonus.As the work proceeds throughout the season the hours worked are deducted from the retainer.It's sort of an escrow account. They may be charging a staging fee, which is reasonable if you ever moved large equipment,it could run into the 10's of thousands. Then they could run equipment at a reasonable rate not having to "guess" how many events to figure to recoup staging costs. Sort of a hybrid seasonal.


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

leigh;1527605 said:


> Maybe I missed something but- a retainer is a prepayment or a series of payments made in advance to procure the services of a party. It's not free money or a bonus.As the work proceeds throughout the season the hours worked are deducted from the retainer.It's sort of an escrow account. They may be charging a staging fee, which is reasonable if you ever moved large equipment,it could run into the 10's of thousands. Then they could run equipment at a reasonable rate not having to "guess" how many events to figure to recoup staging costs. Sort of a hybrid seasonal.


Exactly, and any mobe fee I think would be charged in addition. Really shouldn't we all be charging for that? On a big sight there is a lot of equipment to move. Any other contracting job gets charged for movie in and move out.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

PhilFromErie;1527603 said:


> You should just try asking the question again next week in a new thread, may be you'll have better luck. If it snows soon everyone will be in a better mood.


Lol I've already thought about doing that. I've been biting my tongue every other post. It's been a real entertaining read for some though I bet. Even with all the misdirection I think this thread is still good.Thumbs Up


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

I think Leigh summed it up best. At least how I would try to work it if it was me.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

RLM;1526983 said:


> I used to believe as you do. Then I started talking to the Canadians, what they say makes sence. We provide a necessay weather dependent service, if it doesn't snow, you still accrue real costs (equipment payments, insurance, etc.)
> We need to remember this, as you get into bigger sites those costs multiply quickly, yes they are all relative but non the less very real. After last winter my mind changed real fast, I restructured my contract portfolio for this year. We has a school district that was straight hourly last year, 2 loaders, bobcat & 3 trucks their bill didn't even cover the one loaders payments for a year, I figure it COST me about 30K for the privilege of being on call for them. We were getting it done in 3.5 hours & they wanted almost double what we had in equipment there too, no retainer, so request the world, everyone wants to put close to a million in equipment on an account to bring in 50K....right, oh and they salt it themselves & have the town do removal work. Their average yearly budget (public record) would be marginally profitable at best, I tried it a year, for us it doesn't work, even with older equipment the numbers wouldn't work.


Good post



BC Handyman;1527013 said:


> I do strongly believe that there should be some sort of additional cost to the customer if its requested. It's easy enough to build it into the seasonal or per push prices, but what stucture should it take or what is accepted/acceptable?
> 
> then when I figure out how to charge, I can figure out how much I need to charge.


I usually charge on my retainer amount what I need to cover costs of the equipment in question. What is a monthly cost to you if you were making a payment on a loader or skid, insurance, etc. Usually a contract that requires a dedicated piece of equipment is large enough to make your profit on clearing just that lot, if they are not, then it is kind of vain for them to ask you to leave dedicated equipment to begin with.



BC Handyman;1527048 said:


> Not really, your talking about a seasonal were you got the "equipment sitting fee"(if you charge 1) built into a seasonal price that wont change, were as I'm saying I'll charge you X retainer, that can be used towards a per push/visit, & if it less snow no $ back to you, but if it more then retainer I charge you more. Just a guarenteed amount so you can guarentee that the equipment is available for their site.


You are talking about a expectation of work retaineer. I charge most of my larger contracts a one event a month retaineer, I figure there should be a reasonable expectation that I work once a month to bother keeping all the equipment in the first place. The reality is I can charge a once a month retaineer to cover costs, and keep my hourly reasonable, or I can add extra money on my per push or per hour price. If you want you can allow clients to carry their retaineer forward. I have condos that do it that way.



BC Handyman;1527631 said:


> Lol I've already thought about doing that. I've been biting my tongue every other post. It's been a real entertaining read for some though I bet. Even with all the misdirection I think this thread is still good.Thumbs Up


How about we put this MALL stuff to rest. If there is 200 stores in this mall, that would mean the retaineer would be $2500/store or about $416/month, I think that $416/month + hourly charges per store isn't too bad.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

JD Dave;1527203 said:


> You do realize that more dribbles off the end of TCLA's blades in one one storm then you've plowed in your life?


Agreed. Kind of like calling Einstein a moron and trying to teach him basic math.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

buckwheat_la;1527738 said:


> Good post
> 
> I usually charge on my retainer amount what I need to cover costs of the equipment in question. What is a monthly cost to you if you were making a payment on a loader or skid, insurance, etc. Usually a contract that requires a dedicated piece of equipment is large enough to make your profit on clearing just that lot, if they are not, then it is kind of vain for them to ask you to leave dedicated equipment to begin with.
> 
> ...


Good post, thank you. 
lol I typed in your signature on the biting my tongue comment saying I cant remember whos this is but it applies to this thread. I then erased it thinking bite your tongue James


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

ducaticorse;1527062 said:


> And youre an IDIOT if you think a service is not still being rendered by providing a seasonal price even if there ends up being no snow that year. So I guess we're at a draw.:waving:


This is humorous.

Another keyboard cowboy who is an expert after a couple seasons, it appears.



JD Dave;1527203 said:


> You do realize that more dribbles off the end of TCLA's blades in one one storm then you've plowed in your life?


Nice analogy, was glad to see someone calling this maroon's BS.



White Gardens;1527462 said:


> I read most of this thread on my phone earlier.
> 
> Even if the number for the retainer on the mall is inflated, I still wouldn't be surprised if it's close to 500k for the retainer.
> 
> ...


Finally, someone with some intelligence. For those of you who were wearing diapers back in Dec 2001 and now are God's gift to the snow removal industry, can you tell me what happened in Buffalo, NY between Christmas and New Year's Day?

Then, come back and say that it is totally impossible that the equipment listed and retainer is too much.

Anyways, BC, personally I would charge a retainer (if possible due to market conditions) when the customer requires a piece of equipment to be on location. I have many that I stage, but it does not remain dedicated to that site.

As an aside, I found this quote to be amusing:



> "Let's take a ride on our 3-D dopelar radar!,
> It's doplar you moron."


Because it isn't dopelar or doplar. It's Doppler. Pot calling kettle I s'pose.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

Because it isn't dopelar or doplar. It's Doppler. Pot calling kettle I s'pose.[/QUOTE]

its a joke Thumbs Up


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Just think of all the great advice guys could have shared on this thread! 
Instead it became a big waste of time, but yes I read over it with laughter.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

PALS Landscapin;1527597 said:


> They help make me more money, did you not know that?


It's akin to listing that your pickups have headlights... Totally irrelevant. You can't take on more accounts with all your pretty strobes, you can however, have a real perty truck all lit up like a Christmas tree.....

First off you need to learn how to spell. Second you said that its crazy to have a $500,000 retainer. If you been snow plowing long enough you should know how much a loader cost do you have a clue. I rent loaders for a couple of my sites and each one cost me about $4000.00 a month. Your also getting on a guy that has strobes in his work truck, your suppose to be a landscaper and you don't even know what the blast button is on a spreader. Do your homework before you start busting on people.[/QUOTE]

First off, show me where I made a spelling mistake mr "landscapin" .

Second, What GV described is NOT A RETAINER. A retainer is a deposit to go toward services to be rendered. Here is the dictionary definition

A retainer agreement is a work for hire contract. It falls between a one-time contract and full-time employment. Its distinguishing feature is that the employer pays in advance for work to be specified later. Additional contracts regarding the performance of this work may also apply.

It is common for a person seeking the services of a lawyer (attorney) to pay a retainer ("retainer fee") to the lawyer, to see a case through to its conclusion.[1] A retainer can be a single advance payment or a recurring (e.g. monthly) payment.[2]

Retainer fee can be paid on a fixed, pre-negotiated rate or on a variable hourly rate depending on the nature of retainer and also, the practice of the lawyer/advocate being retained. Both models exist in the industry. The purpose of a retainer fee is to ensure payment for future services or work to be rendered. Absent an agreement to the contrary, a retainer fee is refundable if the work is not performed.[3]

GV stated very clearly that in addition to to 500K fee, the equipment was making $125 hourly. So technically the 500K was NOT a RETAINER, if it was, there would be no hourly wage for the loaders until the money was used up or close to it. So you may want to brush up on your comprehension skills.

Third Burksplow or whatever his name is RETYPED what my original question was, to pervert it in a way that made me look less informed than I happen to be, and then got on my ass for asking a legit question instead of offering some constructive criticism. I just said I thought it was funny that he listed his strobes as equipment, well, because it is...

And fourth, I am NOT a landscaper. I own a tree service. A service that takes a lil bit more brain function and expertise than riding a walker over some grass and laying down mulch in the spring..... I can't stand it when people call me a landscaper...

Good talk.

Oh and I OWN a Komatsu 120. I don't need to rent....


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

dfd9;1527782 said:


> This is humorous.
> 
> Another keyboard cowboy who is an expert after a couple seasons, it appears.
> 
> ...


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Does anyone know how to use the quote function anymore?

Has this gone the way of proper spelling and grammar as well? 

And Burk, if you have to explain it, it isn't funny.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

One last thing, and I'll be on my way. Everything about this 500K retainer, and whatever else that has followed is ALL PURELY speculation at this point. No paperwork/contracts have been shown. Just a few guys saying yes its true, and a few guys saying no it's not. So in reality there is no way to see who is right wrong etc. As far as calling someone an "idiot" even though I don't believe I worded it that way without actually going back to take the time to read, usually not my style, and you all have my heart felt apology. I respectfully bow out of this conversation, and as much as it was a blast this weekend, I'm kind of over it. 

PS, if anyone actually gets concrete numbers on the lot in question. I'd love to see them. And I will gleefully eat crow if it was actually as originally stated.

Have A great December all.


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## Jim74 (Jul 8, 2012)

Completely hijacked thread,but getting paid to leave your equipment at a site isn't unreasonable and more should look into doing it. Maybe the owner explained that to truck in every storm 15 loaders and pushers, etc, might cost a certain amount with whatever Buffalos snowfall average is, say twenty grand times thirty events 500 grand might not seem unreasonable.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

And Burk, if you have to explain it, it isn't funny.[/QUOTE]

It is an inside joke, so no need for you to find it funny.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

So you mean these totals for the snow we plowed that week?Thumbs Up


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

I'd be happy to have a storm like that now, if nothing else to prove that there still is such a thing as the "snow belt".


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## jp3288 (Jan 6, 2012)

Hi everyone. I have never replied to any thread before, but I read a ton of them and am constantly lurking. I do find some threads more enjoyable than others, this one has a lot going on. I do not in any way think Grandview is "Jesus of Snowplowing" although I thought I could chime in and defend him about this mall. But first off a little about the actual topic of this thread. I think anyone in Buffalo area will tell you that almost all, 95% plus of all contracts are seasonal. I don't even know anyone that plows driveways per push in the area. In these seasonal contracts, for the larger lots, require that you leave a loader on site. Alot of people will either buy a loader that barely works to loophole it. Or just do adjoining lots and then they are cool with it. So as far as a retainer, that is just a clause in the contract. To the mall: First off, that picture on google maps doesn't do that parking lot justice. For the couple people that have the equipment to do that lot on this site, or in WNY would not want to do that parking lot for 500k plus hourly prices. This place would give even that JD Dave guy (coolest guy on this site) nightmares. It isn't like the the other malls in the area or shopping areas. Even wegmans on sunday would be a cake walk over this mall. Insurance must be nuts, and you aren't plowing it with 2 loaders a skid and a couple trucks in any timely fashion. Place is always jamming, I have no doubt that, thats what the going rate for that lot it. Just one mans opinion. So my final word is to not rush to bash people on this site so quickly, even if their strobe lights sell more work or whatever.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

You should post more often, you actually talk sense...ussmileyflag


jp3288;1528751 said:


> Hi everyone. I have never replied to any thread before, but I read a ton of them and am constantly lurking. I do find some threads more enjoyable than others, this one has a lot going on. I do not in any way think Grandview is "Jesus of Snowplowing" although I thought I could chime in and defend him about this mall. But first off a little about the actual topic of this thread. I think anyone in Buffalo area will tell you that almost all, 95% plus of all contracts are seasonal. I don't even know anyone that plows driveways per push in the area. In these seasonal contracts, for the larger lots, require that you leave a loader on site. Alot of people will either buy a loader that barely works to loophole it. Or just do adjoining lots and then they are cool with it. So as far as a retainer, that is just a clause in the contract. To the mall: First off, that picture on google maps doesn't do that parking lot justice. For the couple people that have the equipment to do that lot on this site, or in WNY would not want to do that parking lot for 500k plus hourly prices. This place would give even that JD Dave guy (coolest guy on this site) nightmares. It isn't like the the other malls in the area or shopping areas. Even wegmans on sunday would be a cake walk over this mall. Insurance must be nuts, and you aren't plowing it with 2 loaders a skid and a couple trucks in any timely fashion. Place is always jamming, I have no doubt that, thats what the going rate for that lot it. Just one mans opinion. So my final word is to not rush to bash people on this site so quickly, even if their strobe lights sell more work or whatever.


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## buildinon (Oct 6, 2011)

BcHandyman...some extra food for thought that I am surprised no one has brought up while talking about this subject is insurance. I know that I checked with my insurance company here in Chicago area and they recommended that I add some sort of GPS or other tracking device to equipment left on sight. Or atleast make sure that it was in a well lite public area and very well secured, as the last few seasons we have had alot of thefts here. One company who is a member on here had alot of stuff stolen, another company literally (Olddogg can back me up on this) had loaders tolen off thier site. I have even heard of some insurance companies making you have extra coverage for equipment left on site, so you would have to factor that into the cost as well. Or should I say the risk now a days. I know that I personally have instead of leaving my stuff "on site" in downtown Chicago, have found a secure location that is a fenced in building with cameras and has a ton of lighting. My insurance company came out and inspected it, and approved it to not make me carry an extra policy for having my equipment kept "on site" bascilly. They really just wanted to make sure it was secure with all the theft claims around these parts last year.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Been called a lot of things , But never Jesus of Plowing! Might have to put that on my plow trucks


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

grandview;1528190 said:


> So you mean these totals for the snow we plowed that week?Thumbs Up


That's the one.

But, like I said, these keyboard cowboys are clueless when it comes to something like that.



jp3288;1528751 said:


> Hi everyone. I have never replied to any thread before, but I read a ton of them and am constantly lurking. I do find some threads more enjoyable than others, this one has a lot going on. I do not in any way think Grandview is "Jesus of Snowplowing" although I thought I could chime in and defend him about this mall. But first off a little about the actual topic of this thread. I think anyone in Buffalo area will tell you that almost all, 95% plus of all contracts are seasonal. I don't even know anyone that plows driveways per push in the area. In these seasonal contracts, for the larger lots, require that you leave a loader on site. Alot of people will either buy a loader that barely works to loophole it. Or just do adjoining lots and then they are cool with it. So as far as a retainer, that is just a clause in the contract. To the mall: First off, that picture on google maps doesn't do that parking lot justice. For the couple people that have the equipment to do that lot on this site, or in WNY would not want to do that parking lot for 500k plus hourly prices. This place would give even that JD Dave guy (coolest guy on this site) nightmares. It isn't like the the other malls in the area or shopping areas. Even wegmans on sunday would be a cake walk over this mall. Insurance must be nuts, and you aren't plowing it with 2 loaders a skid and a couple trucks in any timely fashion. Place is always jamming, I have no doubt that, thats what the going rate for that lot it. Just one mans opinion. So my final word is to not rush to bash people on this site so quickly, even if their strobe lights sell more work or whatever.


Other than GV being Jesus, good post. :laughing: Unless you meant the Spanish version of Jesus (Heysoos) :laughing::laughing:


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

buildinon;1528763 said:


> BcHandyman...some extra food for thought that I am surprised no one has brought up while talking about this subject is insurance. I know that I checked with my insurance company here in Chicago area and they recommended that I add some sort of GPS or other tracking device to equipment left on sight. Or atleast make sure that it was in a well lite public area and very well secured, as the last few seasons we have had alot of thefts here. One company who is a member on here had alot of stuff stolen, another company literally (Olddogg can back me up on this) had loaders tolen off thier site. I have even heard of some insurance companies making you have extra coverage for equipment left on site, so you would have to factor that into the cost as well. Or should I say the risk now a days. I know that I personally have instead of leaving my stuff "on site" in downtown Chicago, have found a secure location that is a fenced in building with cameras and has a ton of lighting. My insurance company came out and inspected it, and approved it to not make me carry an extra policy for having my equipment kept "on site" bascilly. They really just wanted to make sure it was secure with all the theft claims around these parts last year.


This is a good point that no one touched on. It may be a little diffenent for me living were I do, but still a very relivent point. It's one thing having insurance, it's another to have the right insurance. Would be a shame if one assumed he was covered, just to find out when the sh*t hits the fan that your outta luck.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

grandview;1528767 said:


> Been called a lot of things , But never Jesus of Plowing! Might have to put that on my plow trucks


Put that under the drivers window, and a halo on top.

Thumbs Up


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

BC Handyman;1528966 said:


> This is a good point that no one touched on. It may be a little diffenent for me living were I do, but still a very relivent point. It's one thing having insurance, it's another to have the right insurance. Would be a shame if one assumed he was covered, just to find out when the sh*t hits the fan that your outta luck.


There is only one road in and out of where you live, :laughing:

But seriously, it is important to have theft and vandalism insurance on your equipment for it being left on a job site, but I am sure you already recognized that.


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## rocks&blocks (Oct 30, 2012)

I think, if by leaving your equipment on my site I am benefiting from additional services that would otherwise be charged out by another contractor, I would accept a storage fee. (not likely though)

If such said fee is not industry standard, and I can receive the same services without being charge a storage fee, sorry next. 

I would also suggest, maybe I charge YOU for storage; for less time consumed by way of: set-up labour, fuel, and time saved. But it is clever of you to think you are saving me money 

I guess if you can get it go ahead, but if I find out, it is a cost of business, and your false sense of reasoning days are over, its mine! LOL! 

I think I"am going to be doing some business in BC next year, time to rattle the cage!


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Sure, rocks & blocks if it was the contractors choice to leave equipment there however if it is required by the contract for the equipment to be kept there that is a different beast all together.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Exactly buckwheat, like I said earlier in thread rocks&blocks, if I choose to leave stuff there for my convienence(and property ok with it) I should not charge for it, but if property says you must keep a skid on site at all times, well of course I should charge for it, and a good amount too. Then if you come in, take contract and store equipment there for free(when its requested) then shame on you I'd say, or atleast call you a fool for leaving $ on the table. This is about if it's required to leave equipment on site, then how & what to charge. There should certainly be an aditional charge for such a request, don't you think?


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

lmao, "jesus of plowing" :laughing:


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## rocks&blocks (Oct 30, 2012)

BC Handyman;1529289 said:


> Exactly buckwheat, like I said earlier in thread rocks&blocks, if I choose to leave stuff there for my convienence(and property ok with it) I should not charge for it, but if property says you must keep a skid on site at all times, well of course I should charge for it, and a good amount too. Then if you come in, take contract and store equipment there for free(when its requested) then shame on you I'd say, or at least call you a fool for leaving $ on the table. This is about if it's required to leave equipment on site, then how & what to charge. There should certainly be an aditional charge for such a request, don't you think?


I must have miss read, my apologies. Keeping it there because it is requested is different.

That being said because I have been out of snow for many years, why would they request the equipment to be left on site? (isn't a 24hr service still a 24hr services regardless of equipment location)

If I can deliver the same service without the additional cost to client and keep my margins the same, would that not make for a reasonable option.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

No worries Rocks, it could be for any reason, like I said earlier maybe cause they worried about road closures, time sensitive or just cause they weird or anal, Hey I'm sure we all had crazier requests  :laughing:


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

rocks&blocks;1529353 said:


> I must have miss read, my apologies. Keeping it there because it is requested is different.
> 
> That being said because I have been out of snow for many years, why would they request the equipment to be left on site? (isn't a 24hr service still a 24hr services regardless of equipment location)
> 
> If I can deliver the same service without the additional cost to client and keep my margins the same, would that not make for a reasonable option.


True,but if a company wants a dedicated piece of equipment you put it there and charge them. They don't want to here it's on it's way or anything else. When snow is foretasted you better be there waiting.
For ex. Say you have a truck that makes 10k for the season,they want a truck there,so they need to pay for your lost and then pay for cost of their snow service.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

rocks&blocks;1529353 said:


> That being said because I have been out of snow for many years, why would they request the equipment to be left on site?


I'll give you one example...we do 4 buildings that are together in a business park. 300k square feet of asphalt. Space is at a premium big open area between three buildings where semis need to.be able to turn around. There's no way a truck could pile the snow high enough. The customer hires us every year because they like (and request) that we keep a machine on site. We opt not to charge an additional fee because of the size of the property and the increased efficiency with which we get it done (and charge accordingly for)


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

I think for for now on I am going to try to charge a retainer on my per push accounts amounting to the monthly rent on the machine. Any services would be deducted from the retainer. So if I have one wheel loader dedicated to the sight I might charge a $3,000 per month retainer. If we even get two plows the retainer will get used up but it might be a hedge against really bad months. I do not think that you can charge the monthly retainer in addition to the regular plowing bill.


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## rocks&blocks (Oct 30, 2012)

BC Handyman;1529363 said:


> No worries Rocks, it could be for any reason, like I said earlier maybe cause they worried about road closures, time sensitive or just cause they weird or anal, Hey I'm sure we all had crazier requests  :laughing:


Thanks to "ALL" for the clarification !


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

I have been reading this banter back and forth for several days. Perhaps I can shed some clearer thinking on the subject.

1) I can't speak for every region of the globe, but in the Detroit area, large equipment is left on site all the time. Sometimes it is part of a seasonal arrangement, sometimes it is part of a per occurence arrangement, and sometimes it might be on an hourly arrangement.

2) Leaving large equipment on site is mutually beneficial for the property owner and the contractor. Moving large equipment just prior to or at the onset of a storm is not practical, particularly where multiple loaders are involved. Furthermore, it is quite costly. In addition, by having the equipment on site, the property owner should feel comfortable that his/her property will be well taken care of. Operators can show up on site and begin clearing snow in a short period of time. 

3) Everything is a negotiation. Yes, if you have been around a while, you may know what type of mentality property owners are likley to have in your area and be reasonably sure where the negotiations will lead ahead of time. However, between the bid specifications and actual contract language, you can get a better feel for what may or may not be allowed under the terms. A contractor should feel free to negotiate changes to the contract particularly where there is limited competition such as the mall in question. Apparently,few contractors are capable of handling this mall in the Buffalo area. Negotiating is easier from a position of strength. If I understand some of the posts on here, many contractors don't feel as though they can negotiate from a position of strength and therefore think that everyone has the same handicap. This is not true. Also, if you never ask for something, you will never get it. 

4) I would not post a contract on this site, nor would the moderators allow such a thing (I think) unless it was just specific language where the merits of such language could be discussed. Never should any contract amounts be on an open forum like this.

5) The way I took Grandview's original post, and he can correct me if I am wrong, the retainer was $500,000, so $500,000 was the minimum the contractor could earn for the season with all of the potential services that are part of the job. Each loader, truck, etc. has an hourly rate associated with it. As the loaders, trucks, etc. are used, those hourly rates are multiplied by the hours worked for each loader, truck, etc. and those totals are added up throughout the season. If that $500,000 figure is surpassed, the contractor would start getting paid the hourly rate over and above the retainer amount. 

6) Although fun to go back and forth with good ideas and fair questions for one another, nobody really knows the contract language that others are working by. Perhaps we should not try to negotiate contracts on Plowsite with minimal knowledge and try to negotiate better deals with our customers.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

And I'm man enough to say.I don't know the exact amount or all the details. Other then this other tid bit. 1-1.5 for the season.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

rocks&blocks;1529353 said:


> I must have miss read, my apologies. Keeping it there because it is requested is different.
> 
> That being said because I have been out of snow for many years, why would they request the equipment to be left on site? (isn't a 24hr service still a 24hr services regardless of equipment location)
> 
> If I can deliver the same service without the additional cost to client and keep my margins the same, would that not make for a reasonable option.


You would think that, but many contracts feel that if there is a dedicated piece of equipment on site they have less to worry about. I have a contract like that, they insist that I have one piece, skidsteer or otherwise there all the time so that if they do run into a problem (even just a simple drift) they know that when they call me, we are heading straight there, not to our shop to get the equipment.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

grandview;1529434 said:


> And I'm man enough to say.I don't know the exact amount or all the details. Other then this other tid bit. 1-1.5 for the season.


You're quite the tease!


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Mr.Markus;1527001 said:


> I believe you GV, my wife tells me it's like 700 acres and she usually underestimates..........


With all due respect to your wife, that site measures 96 acres gross, and that is overmeasuring by far as two large rectangles. Take out the buildings, walks, islands and landscaped area and it's probably at what, 50 acres, at most?



ducaticorse;1527021 said:


> Logistics of trucking equipment back and forth is no bueno. I would RATHER leave my stuff on site if I had enough to go around, and I'm certainly not going to charge extra to do it.
> 
> I understand trying to squeeze every last dime out of the client, and I guess that is ok if you can get it.


Spot on here... These are not places that you do "on a route." The equipment is maxed out at the one site or you have too much equipment there. Free real estate for storage? It doesn't get any better than that.


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## 496 BB (Feb 11, 2010)

Well this is sure more boring now without ducaticorse.

Dont mess with him. Hes gangsta. Ive seen his typing skills before.









Go ahead and talk **** about my sig too. I'll tell you about me first to save you time. I AM only on my 3rd year plowing. I AM a sub for a good friend of mine as I own another successful business and do this for fun and play money. I am NOT a pro like some on here. I DO NOT know as much as GV and others but am learning as I go hence why Im still a sub. My truck WILL last longer than whatever you have even if it is 25+ years old since Im sure cracking on that is on your mind as well. I DO plow gas stations on occasion or where ever else Im asked to go. I DO have all proper Ins and titles as well. And finally I DO think your a total azz for flapping your jaws just to do so.

Start your own thread about how smart you are or write a book on how a snow plowing business and contracts work. I didnt leave you much to talk about did I?

Sit back, relax,.and stfu.


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

496 BB;1530348 said:


> Well this is sure more boring now without ducaticorse.
> 
> Dont mess with him. Hes gangsta. Ive seen his typing skills before.
> 
> ...


Really? We really need snow. This thread is a train wreck that just got worse when you never thought it was possible.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

hoskm01;1530269 said:


> With all due respect to your wife, that site measures 96 acres gross, and that is overmeasuring by far as two large rectangles. Take out the buildings, walks, islands and landscaped area and it's probably at what, 50 acres, at most?
> 
> .


Markus was being sarcastic. Plus his wife thinks 4" is 12" so her measuremnets are always way off.


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

JD Dave;1530360 said:


> Markus was being sarcastic. Plus his wife thinks 4" is 12" so her measuremnets are always way off.


If this was Facebook that would have a like.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

496 BB;1530348 said:


> Well this is sure more boring now without ducaticorse.
> 
> Dont mess with him. Hes gangsta. Ive seen his typing skills before.
> 
> ...


Wow, quit a post..... that livened it up a bit. As much as I could say, all I will say is: There aint no shame in being a sub or doing gas stations. Considering I do both 



PhilFromErie;1530358 said:


> Really? We really need snow. This thread is a train wreck that just got worse when you never thought it was possible.


:laughing: Agreed



JD Dave;1530360 said:


> Markus was being sarcastic. Plus his wife thinks 4" is 12" so her measuremnets are always way off.


LIKE


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## 496 BB (Feb 11, 2010)

PhilFromErie;1530358 said:


> Really? We really need snow. This thread is a train wreck that just got worse when you never thought it was possible.


Well I figured it was getting back on topic and since it was originally 90% off topic anyways I didnt want to confuse people if they ever used the search button in the future.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

jp3288;1528751 said:


> This place would give even that JD Dave guy (coolest guy on this site) nightmares.





grandview;1528767 said:


> Been called a lot of things , But never Jesus of Plowing! Might have to put that on my plow trucks


Almost disappointed in myself with all the time wasted reading this thread. That was until I learned who the "coolest guy" was here.

Would have ended my reading but out came "jesus of plowing",

now i click daily to see who's going to ride in on a "white pony" next.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

JD Dave;1530360 said:


> Markus was being sarcastic. Plus his wife thinks 4" is 12" so her measuremnets are always way off.


I don't know the guy, but that's funny.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

496 BB;1530348 said:


> And finally I DO think your a total azz for flapping your jaws just to do so.
> 
> Start your own thread about how smart you are or write a book on how a snow plowing business and contracts work. I didnt leave you much to talk about did I?
> 
> Sit back, relax,.and stfu.


And you are?


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## R.G.PEEL (Oct 27, 2010)

Someone just watched 8 mile re runs on HBO!


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## TKO1 (Dec 29, 2009)

What a read...


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## icudoucme (Dec 3, 2008)

JD Dave;1530360 said:


> Markus was being sarcastic. Plus his wife thinks 4" is 12" so her measuremnets are always way off.


are you sure that wasn't centimeters?


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

grandview;1526997 said:


> Since I don't know where your from or how long you been plowing or how much snow you get ,you probably speaking from experience from plowing a gas station.I'm going to stick with the mall thing for a bit. What is the worst thing that could had if you you don't get your stuff plowed out? angry owner,maybe an employee has to park in the street . This place is the largest in the Buffalo area and serves a good part of Canada. You may or may not know this ,but each store pays rent and a maintenance fee to the mall. So come winter time these stores do not want any excuse as to why its not plowed out.During xmas season millions of dollars are spent there per day. So again the mall will pay anything it takes to keep it open.*As I said I plowed there in 2000-01 season* .Mall did the walks,the company was only responsible for the lot and roadways.There were no skid steers used there loader and push box. The boxes were not even chained onto the bucket because they wanted the buckets to be useable .I don't know how many times i left the box up on the snow pile and had to use the bucket to pull it down.Your right I could rent a couple of loaders and bid the mall, but the will WC Field me.*This company had been plowing it for 20 yrs now.*


Now I'm really confused!  There's only 12 years difference from when you did it to when you say they are doing it. How did they do it for 20 years if you did it 12 years ago?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

JD Dave;1530360 said:


> Markus was being sarcastic. Plus his wife thinks 4" is 12" so her measuremnets are always way off.


Finally someone who appreciates self deprication, it was a joke. Good one Dave. I unsubscribed but got sucked back in...HaHa.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

ALC-GregH;1530642 said:


> Now I'm really confused!  There's only 12 years difference from when you did it to when you say they are doing it. How did they do it for 20 years if you did it 12 years ago?


He worked for the guy that plowed it. He never said he had the contract.

Glad you saw the humor in it Markus.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Yes if you read all the thread, granview said he used to plow for the company many years ago, he has had his own business for over 10years.

Well as much BS that this thread has, I still think its entertaining, & it's just like the internet. One has to sift through the 90% bs to find the 10% usefull info. Some may not agree, but to me this thread represents why this site is great.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Correct,I plowed there as help in 2000-01 the mall has been there since the late 80's.Got a pix of a couple of loaders they use.


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## nms0219 (Jan 20, 2007)

Google image does nothing for this mall, They run a ton of equipment and have alot of man power on site when it snows. I personally plowed a few times there helping out a friend. ( in fact I hit my first fire hydrant there, fun phone call at 2 am.) Miles of sidewalk of all different sizes. It takes hours to clear even with 15 loaders. Snow storage is a huge issue here, most if not all is trucked off site every snow fall.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

nms0219;1530929 said:


> Google image does nothing for this mall, They run a ton of equipment and have alot of man power on site when it snows. I personally plowed a few times there helping out a friend. ( in fact I hit my first fire hydrant there, fun phone call at 2 am.) Miles of sidewalk of all different sizes. It takes hours to clear even with 15 loaders. Snow storage is a huge issue here, most if not all is trucked off site every snow fall.


Sounds like they need a melter on site, get rid of the trucking. Save some money for the customer.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

hoskm01;1531046 said:


> Sounds like they need a melter on site, get rid of the trucking. Save some money for the customer.


Who will pay the half million price tag for it? And you can't dump the melted snow down the drains.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

grandview;1531055 said:


> Who will pay the half million price tag for it? And you can't dump the melted snow down the drains.


Maybe use the 500k retainer


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## nms0219 (Jan 20, 2007)

grandview;1531055 said:


> Who will pay the half million price tag for it? And you can't dump the melted snow down the drains.


GV, Never made any sense to me. You can dump huge piles of snow and let it melt on its own and its ok, Melt the same snow and the county fines / arrests you.....


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Supposedly because its considered natural melt off. Just like they can't dump snow into the lake ,yest all the run off goes into the lake by way of sewers.


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## nms0219 (Jan 20, 2007)

http://www2.erie.gov/environment/sites/www2.erie.gov.environment/files/uploads/water_lawncare.pdf

Makes for a good read.............


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## icudoucme (Dec 3, 2008)

To back up Grandview the Galleria Malls revenue per year is 1.25 Billion dollars. If you average that out over a year that comers to $3,424,657.53 of revenue per day. The company that owns the mall Pyramid Brokerage is a top notch company that really takes care of it's lessee's. To them 500,000 is chump change. They pay for great service. 

My opinion for the original poster. If you have a client that NEEDS great service yes charge them a "Onsite" charge. Most business minded people understand everything has a price. You need to convey to them that premium service has a premium price and the services you are offering them will keep there revenue stream flowing.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

icudoucme;1531167 said:


> To back up Grandview the Galleria Malls revenue per year is 1.25 Billion dollars. If you average that out over a year that comers to $3,424,657.53 of revenue per day. The company that owns the mall Pyramid Brokerage is a top notch company that really takes care of it's lessee's. To them 500,000 is chump change. They pay for great service.
> 
> My opinion for the original poster. If you have a client that NEEDS great service yes charge them a "Onsite" charge. Most business minded people understand everything has a price. You need to convey to them that premium service has a premium price and the services you are offering them will keep there revenue stream flowing.


Good point, sell the fact they can make more $ by having a great service. Thumbs Up 
& on another note do you feel the love Grandveiw?  
ALL hail "jesus of plowing" :laughing: sorry I still laugh thinking about that comment.:laughing:


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Well you guys even sucked me (the OP) into this mall talk, so I will add:
It is crazy that they would not allow a melter, really they would save a ton of $ over a few years. So are melters allowed anywhere in NY state? & as far as the 1/2 mil goes, sure I've never bid on a site like that(don't even have a site that big here) but I can imagine that price tag being realistic, due to the fact that not anyone could do that site to the specs wanted by the mall, it's not just about having enough equipment to do it, one would need backup equipment as well as the employees.
The logistics of trying to bring in the needed equipment every storm would make the job impossible to do what I would imagine the specs are. So to have that amount of equipment & staff "sitting there" waiting for snow, while accumulating expenses like insurance, payments, payroll ect, ect. would surly have to come with a price tag that most of us would find awe inspiring.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

..........................................


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

BC Handyman;1531197 said:


> Well you guys even sucked me (the OP) into this mall talk, so I will add:
> It is crazy that they would not allow a melter, really they would save a ton of $ over a few years. So are melters allowed anywhere in NY state? & as far as the 1/2 mil goes, sure I've never bid on a site like that(don't even have a site that big here) but I can imagine that price tag being realistic, due to the fact that not anyone could do that site to the specs wanted by the mall, it's not just about having enough equipment to do it, one would need backup equipment as well as the employees.
> The logistics of trying to bring in the needed equipment every storm would make the job impossible to do what I would imagine the specs are. So to have that amount of equipment & staff "sitting there" waiting for snow, while accumulating expenses like insurance, payments, payroll ect, ect. would surly have to come with a price tag that most of us would find awe inspiring.


Melters are far to expensive to operate when you have a close place to dump to snow. Also they are far to slow when compared to multiple loaders loading lets say 15-20 trucks. Now if you had to haul the snow from a downtown core and pay dumping fee's then it makes sense. The mall in question dumps on property they own which is extremely close.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

JD Dave;1531283 said:


> Melters are far to expensive to operate when you have a close place to dump to snow. Also they are far to slow when compared to multiple loaders loading lets say 15-20 trucks. Now if you had to haul the snow from a downtown core and pay dumping fee's then it makes sense. The mall in question dumps on property they own which is extremely close.


True enough, now I think of it, you would need a fleet of melters for that site, and with each melter the price of a few trucks & trailers & can see it's a better option. Dumping snow in town is a problen even for here, all the good dump sites in town are private property & come with dump fee's.


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## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

JD Dave;1531283 said:


> Melters are far to expensive to operate when you have a close place to dump to snow. Also they are far to slow when compared to multiple loaders loading lets say 15-20 trucks. Now if you had to haul the snow from a downtown core and pay dumping fee's then it makes sense. The mall in question dumps on property they own which is extremely close.


Go to a blower on a tractor and it's even more efficient. To the extent of the melter being useless.

Around here because there is no "official" snow dump just what ever farmer or pit that feel like accepting snow it's dirt cheap to haul. to the point that it would take a life time to pay for a melter.

I feel I need to add that in my experience dealing with large malls and other properties of that nature yes they do have a massive $ amount attached to the contracts.
I used to manage a few for CBRE that were in the 7 digit range. But with that massive contract amount there is an equally insane amount of over head. So much so that your average $10,000 a year industrial property has a higher profit margin. I mean yes the mall still has a large dollar amount as profit but as a percentage it's pretty sad really.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

potskie;1531306 said:


> Go to a blower on a tractor and it's even more efficient. To the extent of the melter being useless.
> 
> Around here because there is no "official" snow dump just what ever farmer or pit that feel like accepting snow it's dirt cheap to haul. to the point that it would take a life time to pay for a melter.
> 
> ...


I agree on the blower but when your a construction company and already have so many loaders there it seems smarter to load it. Yorkdale Mall use to have a company called Proscan plow it. Very similair to the mall in question. They had 5 or 6 844 JD with 18-22ft bladed. As soon as they were done they put on 15 yard+ snow buckets on and they started loading trucks. 2 buckets heaped a triaxle to the point it was running over. If there wasn't enough trucks to keep up the loaders would just start hauling with the buckets. I watched one morniing and was totally in awe. They had a skid steer with a 10 ft blade on it and it would almost drive inside the buckets clean up the dribbles. There was no way faster to do this in my eyes. They were piling snow onsite with a hug excavator, with a dozer pusher it up. It was quite the site to see just before xmas.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Wow 15 yard bucket, thats big! Whats a loader,blade & bucket like that worth new? I bet over $200,000


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