# Ohio guys wonder why they can't make money plowing driveways!



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Cutbacks Planned For Snow Removal Program
By tallmadgeexpress.com 
9/26/2008 
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TALLMADGE, Ohio -- Due to higher-than-expected costs of a free snow-plowing service it offered last year, the city is downsizing the program this winter to help only those who can't afford it.

Last year the city plowed the driveways for residents 65 and older and disabled residents who did not have an able-bodied person in their home to do it.

The city anticipated a little more than 100 residents would sign up for the program, but was surprised and somewhat overwhelmed last year to be clearing snow out of about 530 driveways, said Kline. The city budgeted $20,000 for the service, but ended up instead paying $22,000 for it, with funds from the general fund and service department budget.

So this year, the city is only allowing people to register if they cannot afford their own private plowing service, said Public Service Director Dave Kline. Registrants must show proof of age and sign an affidavit stating they can't afford the service, Kline added.

Kline said his department doesn't have the time or personnel to check on the financial status of every applicant, but said he expects residents to be honest.

"If applicants don't abide by the rules or we find out they were fraudulent on their application, we have the option to remove them from the program," Kline said.

After a snow emergency, which is when it snows more than 4 inches, the city sends out hired private snow companies to remove snow from the residents' driveways within 24 hours, said Kline, who noted the city's snow trucks would not be used.

Eligible residents can sign up Sept. 15 until Oct. 3 at the service department office in City Hall, the Recreation Center or the Community Center, he said.

Those who qualify for the service because of physical or mental disability should present a completed certificate of disability exemption at the time of applying, he said. They, too, will have to sign an affidavit pledging that there aren't any able-bodied people available to remove snow in the home.

Residents who received the free service last year are not automatically signed up this year and must go to one of the three designated places to sign up, Kline said.

The program will start when the first snow emergency happens and last the duration of the "snowy season" until April, Kline said.

The city will not plow a driveway if the homeowner has plans to be out of town for the winter, he added.

"You must own and occupy your home during the winter months to receive the service," he noted, adding, residents in condominiums and apartments are not eligible for the service.

Last year, the service cost the city about $12 to $15 per driveway, and Kline said he will go out to bid for private contractors after Oct. 3, the last day to sign up.

For more information, call the city's public service department 330-633-0854.

Friday, September 26, 2008


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Where did u find this?

I didnt even know this was done


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

My Ohio division of snowplowing takes care of this . That's why I'd rather have it snow there then here!


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I didn't think snow wan an emergency.


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

OK Can we see a fleet Pic of your Ohio Division>?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

JD Dave;592000 said:


> I didn't think snow wan an emergency.


I assume you mean "was". Hey, they need to get out to get the free cheese they give away!


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Free Cheese where?


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## dmontgomery (Oct 3, 2003)

the city I work in plows driveways for senior citizens for free......


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## f250man (Jan 28, 2005)

They don't offer anything like that in my township or village. But when someone calls the village for snowplowing they give out my number.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

grandview;591992 said:


> After a snow emergency, which is when it snows more than 4 inches,


 Thats funny right there.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

yep snow... big emergancy


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## Kramer (Nov 13, 2004)

Being the financial guru I am..... 530 drives at a total of $22000 is like $41.50 a piece.

You mean to tell me that you guys are plowing snow in Ohio for a seasonal of $42 clams? What does a small lot go for-- $60/yr?? LOL.


I will stay in Mass thanks!


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## Sydenstricker Landscaping (Dec 17, 2006)

Hah, I wouldnt even own a plow truck if drives were going for 40 bucks for the season. I wouldnt have done that at 12 with a shovel or a snowblower. That is left behind for the wanna be plow guys who think they are making it big plowing for the city, LOL. 40 bucks put like a half tank in the truck. I gotta find this flyer from some landscaper in Madison signing double wide drives for 12 bucks a push and triple wide drives for 13 a push. And no it isnt f250man.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

over four inches is a snow emergency i guess. Course its ohio i cant imagine they get over four inches very often. I got a buddy around dayton and he always tells me they dont get much for snow and drives a two wheel drive truck now.

i cant believe they pay for residents to get plowed for FREE. Poor people dont know how to use shovels WTF? if i paid taxes there i would be annoyed.
Glad i dont have to plow there i couldnt plow a drive for 13 bucks that the town pays the subs and you cant compete with 13 bucks or free. pathetic. just pathetic.


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## f250man (Jan 28, 2005)

Come up and see me and Tom and tell us we don't get over 4" very offten.


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## Sydenstricker Landscaping (Dec 17, 2006)

Depends on what part of Ohio you live in. I am right by lake erie, 70 miles west of Erie PA. We get plenty of lake effect and 4 inches is not much at all. I have had a lake effect squall dump about a foot in what seemed like 45 minutes. And we average 25-30 or so pushes per season. And that big storm back in March, I had touch over 2 feet and Steve out his way was nearing 3 feet. That wasnt including the drifts

That is how some of these towns are getting. Alot of people, especially seniors are crying broke and everyone is doing what they can to help. And that gets all the 5-10 dollar guys their hard on for the winter. Cheap prices amuck. But that crap really doesnt bother me much. Just overlook it, chuckle and keep on working


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## f250man (Jan 28, 2005)

I hate the low-ballers cause when the screw up and I get called they look at me and say that is to much. Thanks you and have a nice time shoveling.


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Now this part of Ohio 4" is a pretty good snow


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## f250man (Jan 28, 2005)

You dont get snow down there it is all that salt that makes it look like snow. LOL


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## carl b (Dec 28, 2006)

this is my town there is alot more to that story


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

LOL yea maybe but were pushing something


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## f250man (Jan 28, 2005)

Yea pushing that steel right off the cutting edge.


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## carl b (Dec 28, 2006)

1 of the guys that plowed are in jail for embezzlement from the city
next ed the guy mows for the city need i say more 
there are two other guys that were in on it they are friends of the Maire opps spelling haha


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Well its a good thing you didnt come down for the dinner

They ran out and had to cook more
and the Keg was warm, till they ice it


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## carl b (Dec 28, 2006)

ya my night went bad too . baby sitter got sick :angry::angry::angry:


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Not good!!!


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

i dont think its just the lowballers. 

People that plow snow can actually cause the prices to fall to. Not just by lowballing but if you think of the "friend and family" plowing, lack of service.

If fifty people in a town own a plowtruck and each one plows five of there friends or family for free that is 250 free driveways dragging on the local market. Its hard to raise your prices when the person paying twenty five knows of others getting their driveways plowed for free. 
And if the plow guy isnt offering timely service the homeowner that is already paranoid about you not showing up or them getting stuck and not getting out; will just go to that homedepot and buy the snowblower so they dont have to worry about if you show up on time. Then they KNOW they will be able to get out whenever they want to, and dont have to worry about budgeting in plowing services so are saving money.
So if you consider plowing driveways as a service it is only worth what it costs to have the service repaced. So it is worth nothing if some people plow for free, or not worth much if the lifespan of a snowblower is eight years and costs seven hundred dollars. If you offer poor service you only make the entire situation worse and they build new walmarts and home depots all the time that are more than willing to sell the consumer snowblowers.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

id be willing to bet they only see 4 inchs like 4-5 itmes per year max normally so thats 10 per push... while not a big amount of money, look at it differently , not per drive

you get 500 plus drives in one town..... you probally dont have to drive more than 1 block between each one.... im sure it doesnt have to be the greatest job ever done..... they proablly only have to plow 4 times per season, 5 max..... i doubt they get many complaints or calls about "well i need to be out by 8 am" since they are 65 and older, and its a free service

and top top it all off... they have 24 hours to clear it all..... thats an average of 21 drives per hour 
2 trucks could do easy 10 drives per hour if properly equit , considering the travel time between them is close to nothing. so you run 3 trucks to make it easy on your self.... 

3 operators at 20= 60 per hour x 24 hours x 4 storms = 5760 labor

i can imagine each truck going though more than 200 in fuel per storm = 600

so the dirrect expense is 6360

22000-6360 = 15640 in rough profit... thats not bad when you consider its only 4 storms, to deal with , and im sure you dont need the best trucks in the world, and they would see minimual miles, which makes travel time, and accidents during travel minimized


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

doesnt that come out to a profit of about eight bucks a drive with three trucks each plowing 164 drives per storm or so.

i wouldnt do it.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

and again your not looking at from a bulk seasonal rate.... 

if you had a sigle town home complexe that offered you 22,000 to plow - three trucks needed, but had really no dead lines, easy plowing, and only had to plow a few times per season, you wouldnt take it? i sure would, i bet after every thing is said and done , it would be one of your more profitable, and easy jobs to deal with

each truck would bring in over 1300 per storm . with very minimal expenses. most of use here , not including salt i think dont make 1300 on an average plowing with only one truck .


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

elite1msmith;592290 said:


> and again your not looking at from a bulk seasonal rate....
> 
> if you had a sigle town home complexe that offered you 22,000 to plow - three trucks needed, but had really no dead lines, easy plowing, and only had to plow a few times per season, you wouldnt take it? i sure would, i bet after every thing is said and done , it would be one of your more profitable, and easy jobs to deal with
> 
> each truck would bring in over 1300 per storm . with very minimal expenses. most of use here , not including salt i think dont make 1300 on an average plowing with only one truck .


look at the amount of driveways. i understand your seasonal approach and per storm but your not considering the amount of drivways. blow one tranny, pop a drive shaft, think of the cost of the equipment. you can look at how long you have to do it and the seasonal approach but if you get that low in pricing any mechanical failures added with insurance costs , whatever could mean you have no profit.
163 drives for 1300 bucks. i would NOT do.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

i dont get what the amount of drives has anything to do with the profit in this case - your so close together, you might as well consder it one big a$$ account, which really is what it is your plowing for the the city , not the person, 

i do understand a few more ****s f/r in the trans but other than that its really not that much harder than plowing commercial town homes, 

larger town hom complexes in this area dont give you much more than 15 per push , and you have alot more to deal with , includin sidewalks and all kinds of phone calls... and still not even coming close to the volume

you say 163 drives = 1300 - personally i really dont give a crap what they have to do 

i say 1300 per truck , with minimal expense, minimal investment, minimal travel - in one day , great deal


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

elite1msmith;592300 said:


> i dont get what the amount of drives has anything to do with the profit in this case - your so close together, you might as well consder it one big a$$ account, which really is what it is your plowing for the the city , not the person,
> 
> i do understand a few more ****s f/r in the trans but other than that its really not that much harder than plowing commercial town homes,
> 
> larger town hom complexes in this area dont give you much more than 15 per push , and you have alot more to deal with , includin sidewalks and all kinds of phone calls... and still not even coming close to the volume


i wouldnt plow for fifteen dollars a push.

i put a grand in work in my truck this year. thats a lot of fifteen dollar driveways. just normal upkeep on plowtruck isnt cheap. then factor in depreciation, payments and interest if you have them, your commerical insurance policy, your time when your not plowing but changing fluids, working on the plow, doing a estimate, whatever. i consider everything everytime i drop the blade.
most people that plow lose money doing it and dont even realize it. I am a firm believer that this is true. Same with the guys that bid some of the commercial work like you mentioned. they get a contract for ten grand, buy a new truck, the new truck just depreciated five grand when they drove it off the lot. they are plowing for basically free.
I dont understand how most people i come acrossed think about things when it comes plowing but everytime i start my truck, shift gears, drop the blade, i know its costing me money and i want more than that cost back.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

well what would you charge to do a town home complete with say 100 plus drives?

and what do you make in a single storm per push on average with 1 truck? (not including salt)


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

elite1msmith;592309 said:


> well what would you charge to do a town home complete with say 100 plus drives? dont know i would have to see it. but i cant bid on that much work i dont have the equipment for itand what do you make in a single storm per push on average with 1 truck? (not including salt)


 depends, customers come and go. i try to keep the truck running over 150 a hour though without beating the crap out of it. .


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

well thats half your reason.....

its like this , you charge 150 per hour to plow, you can plow about 1 acre per hour , on average.... so you might say that your rate per acre is 150 about


well lets say, a walt mart size lot, around 10 acres.... so by that your tellign me that you would charge 1500 to plow it? i got news , you will never win that bid at that price. if you were arund 800-1200 maybe, but i could forsure tell you 1500 no way 

now consider this , your charging 150 per hour, im charging around 80 per hour for these driveways.... 

you might be chagring more, but doing less. your travel time between them is 4-5 mins, at least , while mine would likley be 30 secs avg. - travel time costs you money , dirrectly, both in gas, miles, and operator cost that your not making money , more than likly im plowing twice as many drives per hour, and i bet my fuel burn is alot lower. - talk about expense

then you get back to the office, you had to bill all those ppl , and deal with all there phone calls, then stamps, envelops... it all adds up, 

i only had to bill one place, with one possibly two stamps. 

you think your making so much more money per hour, but if you subtract other expenses, your gonna be in the same ball park or pretty close

last thing to keep in mind, 8 hours after the storm, you have customers getting picky ....and its gonna be hard to find someone willing to pay 150 for service than is 12 hours later...


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

elite1msmith;592319 said:


> well thats half your reason.....
> 
> its like this , you charge 150 per hour to plow, you can plow about 1 acre per hour , on average.... so you might say that your rate per acre is 150 about
> 
> ...


good possibility. I think your a little more involved in plowing snow than me too. I dont do anything big and have actually shied away from in town drives that are close together because of the pay.
sounds to hectic for me. too many drives your way and i would be worried about repair costs:
but if your a believer and that is how you think go for it.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

points well taken , either way , the profit at the end of the storm should be close to what your making in 10 hours, 

more time plowing, this is true, but plowing drives , is generally cheaper than putting your foot down, to drive from one site to another....and like i said, shorter distances , not only cost less , but are safer. I try to minimize travel time, i dont want my workers driving all over creation

i dont understand your billing system? if your telling me you just reley on the customer to pay up , and you dont invoice out... must be nice-- i have way too many ppl to even consider that option. I dont have an office staff, i use to have a secrtary, however, she didt work so well,... so for now its just me. either way , my time is valueable

iv almost never broken something while plowing drives, is the commecrial stuff that has kept me busy with repairs. I truely dont see any reason theat the repairs associated with this account would be so high that its no longer profitable. like i said 1300 , minus 200 fuel, 200 operator cost, and you profit 900
If your breaking 900 everytime you go out, i suggest gettng a different truck, I know there are things i would do to the trucks ahead of time.... like highly considering a central hydro plow, or beefing up th eelectrical system

i see your point on doing less work , but what the heck do i care... Im not the guy plowing all those drives, i pay my workers to WORK. 

for your small route, are you profiting over 1000 per storm? at least here you would be

and just to clearify, if idid have this account, i wouldnt be using a truck , it would be a toolcat, with a rear plow and buket on the front ,


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## Young Pup (Aug 13, 2004)

Clapper&Company;591996 said:


> Where did u find this?
> 
> I didnt even know this was done


Don't tell me you are thinking about signing up for this? Because by the time you get home you are to tired to plow your driveway. lol xysport payup


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

LOL, Most of the time the guy down the road, plows my drive lol


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## Young Pup (Aug 13, 2004)

I remember you telling me that. That is just to funny.


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

LOL its the truth, I would say he dose the drive the same if not more then I do


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## Young Pup (Aug 13, 2004)

I know why he does it for you..Wants to make sure you can get out to go to work. j/k with you Ron. :waving: :redbounce


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

LOL JP,

He loves to play with the John Deere


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## Young Pup (Aug 13, 2004)

Clapper&Company;592614 said:


> LOL JP,
> 
> He loves to play with the John Deere


That there sounds like a personal problem. :waving:


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

it might be


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## MickiRig1 (Dec 5, 2003)

Tallmadge is just east of me. It's a higher dollar bedroom community basically. Most of the homes have your normal double wide 20 foot long paved drives. But there are many longer drives that could go 50 + feet. 
The Old Timers are not dumb, _Free? SIGN ME UP!_


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm with elite on this one, doesn't sound like a bad deal. 24 hrs to clear, most of my guys are part time though. If I had full time guys they would be chomping at the bit for the extra hrs. It's non-peak plow time, with really no one to complain that its not with in spec (as long as done within 24 hrs) I know I personaly plow my 50 residentials in 3-4 hrs, & thats in my 3500 ext cab w/9' flatbed, loaded with salt, if it was one of my pickups I could knock 25% min off my time.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

RLM;593306 said:


> I'm with elite on this one, doesn't sound like a bad deal. 24 hrs to clear, most of my guys are part time though. If I had full time guys they would be chomping at the bit for the extra hrs. It's non-peak plow time, with really no one to complain that its not with in spec (as long as done within 24 hrs) I know I personaly plow my 50 residentials in 3-4 hrs, & thats in my 3500 ext cab w/9' flatbed, loaded with salt, if it was one of my pickups I could knock 25% min off my time.


dpnt forget to add a rear plow into that mix.... for even more effecency, acctually , what would be nice is a truck with a rear plow backing in , and one sitting on the curb , pushing it up.... have one truck work 5 mins in front of the other one this way theres no turn arounds

heres some simple math i did yesterday , for those that say low ballers

lets say you pay an operator, $20 per hour, which is fair
you have 10 mis travel between driveways, at 30 mph - seems like a fair average
$4 per gal on fuel , on a truck that burns 8 MPG with the plow on

travel cost would be $3.33 for the operator, 6 miles on the truck , 3 dollars. so the first 6.33 is just travel cost...... so you guys that plow for 25 dollars... really your plowing for 18.66 - plus put 6 miles on the truck

this guy probably only drives 30 second down the road


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## MickiRig1 (Dec 5, 2003)

There is no doubt money to be made there. I would imagine most of the drives are grouped near each other. It used to be a township so It's only a 5 mile square City. Once you get in the rhyme you could bang out one every 2 - 3 minutes. Even better you would be doing it in day light. Cuyahoga Falls a City just a mile north of me is going to do the same thing.


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## KGRlandscapeing (May 2, 2007)

solon dose it for the old people they have some guys who cant plow i laugh. But they laugh all the way to the bank 13bucks a push there banging 30+ plus an hour easily


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## carl b (Dec 28, 2006)

don't forget they DONT have to fix the lawn in the spring . i made good money fix there yards .


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## carl b (Dec 28, 2006)

MickiRig1;593441 said:


> There is no doubt money to be made there. I would imagine most of the drives are grouped near each other. It used to be a township so It's only a 5 mile square City. Once you get in the rhyme you could bang out one every 2 - 3 minutes. Even better you would be doing it in day light. Cuyahoga Falls a City just a mile north of me is going to do the same thing.


no the city charges $ 3 per push and pay $55 per hour & its 6" or over . for i bidded on this two or three years ago don't forget to buy your c.falls permit to plow if you plow there


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## brian8you (Sep 7, 2010)

what dose a single driveway were you all are from normally go for and do you sign people before the storms or go out and look for people shoveling. I am completely new to this my truck just happened to come with a plow so i figure it seems like fun i will try it to help pay for all my repairs


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

city of delaware, oh fire dept. helps those who call in who can't get out.


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