# Brake lines



## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

Well... 2nd storm in a row I lost a brake line. Time to change em all ! Truck is a 2004 3500 HD,in mint shape I must say. Question is, should I buy the factory bent line kit? Some have said they are a real pain to fit in the given space and get beat up doing so.

Should I just buy the coils and make my own? 

Is nickle or stainless a good choice?


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## mrv8outboard (Dec 29, 2009)

Stainless is nice if you have the time and money. I use the poly armor coated brake tubing and make my own.


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## mikelawtown (Dec 5, 2004)

ratherbfishin;1623875 said:


> Well... 2nd storm in a row I lost a brake line. Time to change em all ! Truck is a 2004 3500 HD,in mint shape I must say. Question is, should I buy the factory bent line kit? Some have said they are a real pain to fit in the given space and get beat up doing so.
> 
> Should I just buy the coils and make my own?
> 
> Is nickle or stainless a good choice?


My bud ownes a trans shop and has done a few. He did mine last month with classic tube stainless.I lost a line the morning of the 27 inches we had. Kit was 350


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

mrv8outboard;1624138 said:


> Stainless is nice if you have the time and money. I use the poly armor coated brake tubing and make my own.


^I'm with this guy.

Stainless pre-bent lines cost too much and I imagine they're tough to snake into place. Then I wanted the Ni-Copp stuff but it wasn't in my budget and its legality is questionable; the factory service manual says to ONLY use steel and the law wasn't clear but if it ever failed and there was a crash I'd hate to think they'd blame me for disobeying the manual. So, coated steel Poly-Armour PVF coil it is. Works fine and bends much easier than expected.

I used an OTC 4503 double flare kit and it seems to work well.
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/we...roduct_double-flaring-tool-kit-otc_17631616-p

I found this good Youtube video demonstrating/elaborating on the instructions:


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

theholycow;1624801 said:


> Then I wanted the Ni-Copp stuff but it wasn't in my budget and its legality is questionable; the factory service manual says to ONLY use steel and the law wasn't clear


http://www.agscompany.com/faq


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

B&B;1624814 said:


> http://www.agscompany.com/faq


I saw that before, but when the factory service manual (which could be used to blame me) clearly says no and the local laws are unclear, I'm not going to bank on what the seller tells me. Factory service manual:


> *Always use double walled steel brake pipe when replacing brake pipes. The use of any other pipe is not recommended and may cause brake system failure. *


(Color and emphasis duplicated from manual.)

If there is ever a failure resulting in a crash, the investigation would show that I used unrecommended parts. I'm not interested in taking that risk for so little reward...the PVF stuff should have better corrosion resistance than the uncoated OEM crap and bends easily enough, not to mention being less expensive.

I'm not saying anyone else shouldn't use Ni-Copp, my research indicated that it's safe enough in practice, I'm just saying it wasn't worth the risk and cost to me without any real gain.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

My only directive was you stated Ni/Copp has a questionable legality, and that is untrue. There is no question it is 100% DOT approved thus a 100% viable upgrade from steel. Which it most certainly is an upgrade. 

Obviously DOT uses their own rules and specifications, not that of a service manual and as long as the manufacture of a replacement product specially states their product meets all DOT specs that apply liability for it's allowable use based on the passed specifications doesn't fall on you. 


Do you bend and flare your own tubing?


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

It is questionable on some levels. Just because one organization approves it doesn't mean some other idiotic law won't nab you.

Yes, I bend and flare my own.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

theholycow;1625147 said:


> Yes, I bend and flare my own.


Then you're instantly liable regardless of the type of product you use if/when the worse happens. So while there's certainly nothing wrong with being conscious (have to be in this day and age), you're being conscious over the wrong thing.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

B&B;1625159 said:


> Then you're instantly liable regardless of the type of product you use if/when the worse happens. So while there's certainly nothing wrong with being conscious (have to be in this day and age), you're being conscious over the wrong thing.


Sure, if the failure is in the flare or from a bad bend. That's going to be the same no matter what material I use. I can't help that any more than by using the care that I already exercise. I *can* help what material I use.

It's not a huge risk. If there was some compelling reason, I'd brush it aside and use the other material. There just wasn't any compelling reason for me, leaving me only to consider cost and obedience to the manual vs. a level of corrosion resistance that I don't think I'll ever need.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

theholycow;1625254 said:


> Sure, if the failure is in the flare or from a bad bend. That's going to be the same no matter what material I use. I can't help that any more than by using the care that I already exercise. I *can* help what material I use.
> 
> It's not a huge risk. If there was some compelling reason, I'd brush it aside and use the other material. There just wasn't any compelling reason for me, leaving me only to consider cost and obedience to the manual vs. a level of corrosion resistance that I don't think I'll ever need.


And you're no more at risk using DOT approved nickle/copper line either. Which was your original comment of concern thus my directive to assure it meets ALL qualifications in all 50 states (as per FMVSS) and therefore shouldn't even be a qualifying factor in a decision. Not so much for you specifically, but for anyone else who may see your original "questionable legalities" statement as it pertains to nickle/copper brake tubing. Which once again is untrue.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

B&B, plan on doing my 06 and 02 soon. What size and which fittings do I use?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Most of the lines are 1/4" Rich except for the two on the rear axle, which are 3/16". And generally many of the tube fittings can be reused. Or I should state to reuse the ones still in good shape once you dig into it. Usually those at the master cyl are reusable and the five on the ABS module usually too. Otherwise, buying 28 fittings (14 per truck) you'll spend more on fittings than tubing.


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

B&B is pretty much spot on with his suggestions. Finished my lines yesterday;used copper/nickle. They worked out great. Also, the fittings,like B&B said,some were reusable, some needed replacing.

Now the next hurdle is the annoying ABS activation @ low speeds. First attempt will be a through cleaning. I priced the bearings....big bucks! Any suggestions??


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

ratherbfishin;1627579 said:


> Now the next hurdle is the annoying ABS activation @ low speeds. First attempt will be a through cleaning. I priced the bearings....big bucks! Any suggestions??


Do you have access to a scanner that can pull ABS codes? If so, you'll save a few minutes identifying which sensor is at fault.

If not, according to the GM service manual and my own experience, you can easily test it with a multimeter. Reach behind and unplug sensor from harness near frame/upper control arm. Connect multimeter set to AC millivolt range. Jack that corner and spin the wheel by hand as fast as you can. You should get at least 350mv (I got 1.5v on a brand new sensor). If not, you've found the guilty wheel...first try cleaning the corrosion at the mounting surface and test again (per GM's TSBs on the issue), if it still fails then replace the sensor. If it still fails with a known-good sensor then the hub/bearing is bad.

For your thorough cleaning instructions:
http://www.plowsite.com/showpost.php?p=1501302&postcount=4

I haven't seen a good source for new sensors. When I do see them, they are as expensive as a new hub. I went to a self-service junkyard and harvested a bunch. 3 came out intact, and 2 were good when I got them home. Because of how seized they get, I wouldn't recommend trying to swap sensors on your truck from one side to the other.

Don't worry about the rear wheels, ABS gets its data for them from the VSS. If your speedometer is accurate then ABS is getting good rear wheel data.

Above information based on a 2002 1500, but I don't think it differs for a 2004 3500HD.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

ratherbfishin;1627579 said:


> B&B is pretty much spot on with his suggestions. Finished my lines yesterday;used copper/nickle. They worked out great. Also, the fittings,like B&B said,some were reusable, some needed replacing.
> 
> Now the next hurdle is the annoying ABS activation @ low speeds. First attempt will be a through cleaning. I priced the bearings....big bucks! Any suggestions??


I use either Big Hog Customs or GM Parts Direct for the sealed hub assemblies.Clean the sensor mounting pad with a NEW razor blade to get rid of all corrosion and debris,likewise of course with the underside of the sensor and use just a slight amount of grease to ward off future rust.You do NOT want to change the clearance at the mating point there--extremely critical for correct ABS operation.The rust buildup is most likely causing you your low speed issues.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Use a cotton ball to keep the crud out of the hole. Wire wheel the rust off and reinstall. I purchased new bearings for about $160 from Amazon.... Timkin ones.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

How many feet of line have you guys been using?


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## Clint S (Feb 12, 2008)

You can pull the ABS fuse until you get to it and stop the low speed activation. New sensors from NAPA are about $60 for the fronts , but I too often just replace the whole hub especially if there are quite a few miles on it


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## Dr_Goodwrench66 (Nov 3, 2012)

Pre-bent/flared/stainless brake lines for Chevy/GMC HD trucks.

www.classictube.com


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Clint S;1634366 said:


> You can pull the ABS fuse until you get to it and stop the low speed activation.


I've been saying that for years, and last year someone responded with some reason why it's not the best idea...I wish I could remember what it was. Anyway, if I remember correctly, that person recommended merely unplugging the offending sensor, which would have the same result of disabling ABS.

Hooray for fuzzy vague memories!


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

theholycow;1635175 said:


> I've been saying that for years, and last year someone responded with some reason why it's not the best idea...I wish I could remember what it was. Anyway, if I remember correctly, that person recommended merely unplugging the offending sensor, which would have the same result of disabling ABS.
> 
> Hooray for fuzzy vague memories!


Killing the ABS also kills the DRP. The proper driver can handle it without ABS but throw the lack of DRP on top during inclimate conditions and it can become a handful.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

B&B;1635176 said:


> Killing the ABS also kills the DRP. The proper driver can handle it without ABS but throw the lack of DRP on top during inclimate conditions and it can become a handful.


Thank you. Hopefully I'll remember next time.

I had to google DRP to remember that it means Dynamic Rear Proportioning and came up with an alarming result. However it does not apply to us, or at least not to my 2002 1500.
http://www.astrosafari.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15939


> Re: How to turn off ABS/BRAKE lights due to EBCM
> 
> by Corsemoto » August 14th 2012, 11:51pm
> Are you used to cars without proper functioning brake proportioning valve? It's under $100 to have repaired and generally doesn't fail again, not to mention not having correct braking performance with it fixed. If having repaired, you can still drive with ebcm removed.
> ...


Note the part that I underlined: _When ABS / brake lights engaged braking performance deteriorates due to Dynamic Rear Proportioning (DRP) being disabled._

However, this is not the case for our trucks. From the factory service manual:



> DTC C0221-C0227
> Circuit Description
> 
> As the wheel spins, the wheel speed sensor produces an AC signal. The electronic brake control module (EBCM) uses the frequency of the AC signal to calculate the wheel speed.
> ...


Specifically note that the codes for "an open or shorted wheel speed sensor or wheel speed sensor circuit" do not result in the disabling of DRP.

From elsewhere in the manual:


> The red brake warning indicator is illuminated when the dynamic rear proportioning function is disabled.


Thumbs Up Better to unplug a sensor to kill off the low-speed ABS activation than to pull ABS fuse, because you'll keep your DRP.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Is 25 feet of line enough or do I need 50?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Yes 25 ft will do all the 1/4" lines as long as you don't waste any.


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## Moose's Mowing (Oct 6, 2012)

Dr_Goodwrench66;1634374 said:


> Pre-bent/flared/stainless brake lines for Chevy/GMC HD trucks.
> 
> www.classictube.com


Just ordered one of these the other night. Their website didn't have much info on them. At least not that I saw. Anyone know if this kit comes with fittings or is it just the bent & flared lines? Do you re-use the old fittings or do I gotta go get all new ones.


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## Dr_Goodwrench66 (Nov 3, 2012)

Fittings already installed. Throw away your originals!



MJ Services;1644386 said:


> Just ordered one of these the other night. Their website didn't have much info on them. At least not that I saw. Anyone know if this kit comes with fittings or is it just the bent & flared lines? Do you re-use the old fittings or do I gotta go get all new ones.


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## chesterlawn (Nov 9, 2005)

I did my truck with the stainless last year, what a peace of mind it gives you driving down a steep hill pulling a trailer. Or just starting your plow route you don't think "I hope a line doesn't go tonight" I got the pre bent lines, it took me and a friend about 2 1/2 - 3 hours if I remember correctly. We had trouble getting fluid through the rear lines, we had to put air pressure in the brake reservoir to get it through.


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## Moose's Mowing (Oct 6, 2012)

did mine on Sunday. Took a buddy and me about 8 hours. We didn't work too fast and took a lot of breaks for beer and sammiches. Ended up taking the bed of the truck to get the rear lines on. MUCH EASIER. I'm also going to do a little work on the frame rails while it's off. 

I got the prebent SS from Classic tube. VERY good quality, tons of bends, fit perfect. Was a pain to snake the front lines through and had a tough time getting the old ones off the ABS module and the new ones back on. Not much room to wrench under there. Managed to get all the bleeders out with a vise grips. All 4 of them were beyond shot, luckily they came out with some PB blaser and heat. Gotta bleed them tonight and work on the frame rust a bit. bed goes back on and I'm back in business. Now if I could just figure out how the crap to fix my gauge cluster......


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## mpriester (Oct 2, 2011)

MJ Services;1651445 said:


> did mine on Sunday. Took a buddy and me about 8 hours. We didn't work too fast and took a lot of breaks for beer and sammiches. Ended up taking the bed of the truck to get the rear lines on. MUCH EASIER. I'm also going to do a little work on the frame rails while it's off.
> 
> I got the prebent SS from Classic tube. VERY good quality, tons of bends, fit perfect. Was a pain to snake the front lines through and had a tough time getting the old ones off the ABS module and the new ones back on. Not much room to wrench under there. Managed to get all the bleeders out with a vise grips. All 4 of them were beyond shot, luckily they came out with some PB blaser and heat. Gotta bleed them tonight and work on the frame rust a bit. bed goes back on and I'm back in business. Now if I could just figure out how the crap to fix my gauge cluster......


depending on what year the truck is, if its your stepper motors that are acting up in the instrument panel its a easy fix. ebay sells the stepper motors for around $30.00 for a set and if you can solder you can do it yourself much cheaper than sending it out and it only takes about an hour.


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## Moose's Mowing (Oct 6, 2012)

thanks, Don't think it's the steppers. I've had it sent out and had it all redone. It worked for awhile then quit. It's on and off with no rhyme or reason. Got my truck all back together and had to run to lowes tonight. no gauges on the way there, halfway home they all came to life. fuse is good, plug is good, all connections are good.......just don't know what else to check.


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## Dr_Goodwrench66 (Nov 3, 2012)

If your truck is an 03 model there is a software update from the dealer regaurding dead IPC on startup...


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## Moose's Mowing (Oct 6, 2012)

hmmm, it's an 04 but I'll check in to that. Thanks for the heads up.


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