# Snowmanbob.



## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

For a large scale residential operation, including sidewalks and walkways, Optimal density:

Fixed costs, including direct overhead, per house average:
$150

Variable cost per snowfall, per house average:
$5-10

So depending on a million other factors, a 20 event season will cost $250-350 to service. A 40 event would be $350-550

This assumes no marketing, sufficient infrastructure, and is calculated with new financed/leased tractors paid over 7 years, and subs for shovel crews.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

Great stuff!!

Thank you unraveller.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

Unraveller said:


> For a large scale residential operation, including sidewalks and walkways, Optimal density:
> 
> Fixed costs, including direct overhead, per house average:
> $150
> ...


Thanks again.

In your opinion, what sort of infrastructure and manpower would be needed to run an operation like this.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

People can speculate until the cows come home when not knowing the location or average seasonal snow total.

What infrastructure, manpower and equipment is utilized now making this such a successful operation?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Luther said:


> People can speculate until the cows come home when not knowing the location or average seasonal snow total.
> 
> What infrastructure, manpower and equipment is utilized now making this such a successful operation?


I think there have been several people that have tried to say this already...

If you're in an area that gets 150" a year, who cares what someone that gets 10" a year thinks you need to make it successful. Completely irrelevant to the actual issue.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Deja vu, all over again.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

jonniesmooth said:


> Deja vu, all over again.


then just move on, no need to post or subscribe


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

Luther said:


> People can speculate until the cows come home when not knowing the location or average seasonal snow total.
> 
> What infrastructure, manpower and equipment is utilized now making this such a successful operation?


You can share your experience with the type of snow you handle.

I have just started researching into the industry. I have seen a couple of these businesses to purchase, but that doesnt mean I am fixated on them or will purchase them. But decided this would be a good time to research.

So for the purpose of this post, would appreciate if you share your input based on your experiences or snowfall in your city.

Thank you


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I think there have been several people that have tried to say this already...
> 
> If you're in an area that gets 150" a year, who cares what someone that gets 10" a year thinks you need to make it successful. Completely irrelevant to the actual issue.


I think I have already told you that I am not specifically looking for help with what I am doing, because I dont know where I am going to purchase the biz myself. Its all up in the air. I would appreciate if you could share your experience, that is all. I am just trying to get an idea of how things work in general.

I can then stitch that info in my head, myself.

if you look at @jonniesmooth @Snow tracker and @Unraveller answer, they are tight, articulate, they say their point of view, without the haggling, back and forth. I think you could learn something from them.

All I am looking for is information based on your experience, and not design stuff for my situation, cause firstly, I dont know myself which business I will buy or in which city, secondly, you will not be equipped to answer questions about other regions, cause of the numerous variables.

Something along these lines is appreciated...

"In my city, we have X snow events with X inches of snow, and have trigger for X inch. I manage X accounts and charge $X for <type of realestate> and have the following equipment etc etc.

or

if were to manage 3000 residential driveways in my city, in my city, i would do it like this ...etc


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Here you go


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> Here you go
> 
> View attachment 179582


Nicely done!

Thank you!!


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Snowmanbob said:


> Nicely done!
> 
> Thank you!!


I had a feeling that that would really float your boat


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> I had a feeling that that would really float your boat


You got that right. 

What is "cutting edge cost", "hourly edge life" and "edge cost per lot"


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

All of the data was helpfully supplied by @Mark Oomkes so you can rest assured that that spreadsheet represents a complete and accurate analysis of the snowplowing industry. We do not expect any royalty for it's use in your business negotiations.

We wouldn't say no to a few coffees, perhaps.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Snowmanbob said:


> What is "cutting edge cost", "hourly edge life" and "edge cost per lot"


"Cutting edge": the replaceable wear piece that scrapes the ground (and how much each costs)

"Hourly edge life": how long one edge is expected to last

"Edge cost per lot": the calculated % of the edge lost per lot completed


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> All of the data was helpfully supplied by @Mark Oomkes so you can rest assured that that spreadsheet represents a complete and accurate analysis of the snowplowing industry. We do not expect any royalty for it's use in your business negotiations.
> 
> We wouldn't say no to a few coffees, perhaps.


haha for sure..

But thank you guys @cwren2472 @Mark Oomkes


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

4.2 storms average, where do I sign up?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark is very shy and modest; he may not accept the credit for helping.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> 4.2 storms average, where do I sign up?


The average was calculated based on my own zip code and annual snowfall amount. Your location may or may not include the ".2"


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> Mark is very shy and modest; he may not accept the credit for helping.


Plot twist: Cwren is Mark's alter ego... <cue suspense music>


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

Mr.Markus said:


> 4.2 storms average, where do I sign up?


How many snow events do you have in you area?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Our pushable events above 2” average 22


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Snowmanbob said:


> Plot twist: Cwren is Mark's alter ego... <cue suspense music>


No, we are different people. The number of plowable events for Mark's zip code were 6.9

Obviously it's wetter where he is

uh oh...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

cwren2472 said:


> Mark is very shy and modest; he may not accept the credit for helping.


Um, he takes cash. Now have you considered the salaries for the office staff. Billing cycles need to get done. Gonna take more than one person to handle the phone calls from customers who are not serviced to thier liking.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> No, we are different people. The number of plowable events for Mark's zip code were 6.9
> 
> Obviously it's wetter where he is
> 
> uh oh...


I knew you were different ppl.

Where do you get the information about the plowable events?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Snowmanbob said:


> I knew you were different ppl.
> 
> Where do you get the information about the plowable events?


The national weather service publishes annual snowfall statistics

They don't assess actual "plowable events", of course, which has to be extrapolated based on snowfall rates, total amount, average ground temperature, and known estimates of the minimum amount of snowfall accumulation that one could expect to be called out to plow for


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

That surprises me cause of the lake effect he gets and the number of times he says “It can stop now.” sure outnumbers that.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> That surprises me cause of the lake effect he gets and the number of times he says "It can stop now." sure outnumbers that.


I'll double check the data and get back to you


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Snowmanbob said:


> You can share your experience with the type of snow you handle.
> 
> I have just started researching into the industry. I have seen a couple of these businesses to purchase, but that doesnt mean I am fixated on them or will purchase them. But decided this would be a good time to research.
> 
> ...


We get both dry champagne and wet cement type of snow. Not to mention freezing rain and ice storms. We received 60" in downtown Detroit so far this year. Some of our service area is over 80". Our historical average is 42". We've had as much as 100" and as little as mid-upper 20" for seasonal snow totals. Wrap your head around those facts and let that sink in for a bit.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Maybe they count the whole month of Jan and feb as 1 storm each...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> Maybe they count the whole month of Jan and feb as 1 storm each...


Only when we get 6-7 feet at the summit.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

cwren2472 said:


> No, we are different people. The number of plowable events for Mark's zip code were 6.9
> 
> Obviously it's wetter where he is
> 
> uh oh...


I don't think Mark would ever say he's from the north east. To many liberals there for his liking.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Randall Ave said:


> I don't think Mark would ever say he's from the north east. To many liberals there for his liking.


That is probably the most truthful statement in this entire thread


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Only when we get 6-7 feet at the summit.


Up on catskull mountain.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> That is probably the most truthful statement in this entire thread


Nah the most truthful part is the "it can stop now" far exceeding the number of pushes by far no matter how many you want to come up with...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I/we have been informed that I/we are lowballing based on my spreadsheet...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I/we have been informed that I/we are lowballing based on my spreadsheet...


What!? That can't be right... hold on, let me double check...


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Here's my spread sheet.

snow falls from the sky
we plow snow and salt
we collect money
snow depth varies
snow totals vary
snow texture varies 
collected money varies


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Here's my spread sheet.
> 
> snow falls from the sky
> we plow snow and salt
> ...


You lose 20 points for not showing your work


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> You lose 20 points for not showing your work


I'm just a worker and dont know the numbers, I just know the work.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I'm just a worker and dont know the numbers, I just know the work.


Looking oot the window does not constitute work...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Looking oot the window does not constitute work...


The weather forecasters would disagree


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Looking oot the window does not constitute work...


alright, let's stay on topic and not ruin another thread so I have to close it


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> alright, let's stay on topic and not ruin another thread so I have to close it


Aye, aye, Cap'n!


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Snowmanbob said:


> if were to manage 3000 residential driveways in my city, in my city, i would do it like this ...etc


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

This thread is really bumping up my "likes received" count. You guys must appreciate my statistical analyses


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I'm just a worker and dont know the numbers, I just know the work.


I can appreciate that. Thank you for contributing.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

In all seriousness, I screwed up years ago. Had a chance to buy a Dairy Queen. The place was busy yesturday during the snow storm, and its a CASH business. If I was going to do something now, that's what I would be looking at.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Here's my spread sheet.
> 
> snow falls from the sky
> we plow snow and salt
> ...


What do you do about ice?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> What do you do about ice?


I usually put mine in a cocktail.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> I usually put mine in a cocktail.


Dangit...beat me to it.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

BossPlow2010 said:


> What do you do about ice?


Pretend it doesn't exist and stay in bed.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> What do you do about ice?


Put it in my vodka.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

Alright, let's not stray too far off topic...back on point


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> Alright, let's not stray too far off topic...back on point


Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Looking oot the window does not constitute work...


You are doing it all wrong then...


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

@Mark Oomkes To execute those numbers you provided, what sort of equipment and infrastructure did you envision being used and potentially how much would that cost? @cwren2472

Thanks


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Snowmanbob said:


> @Mark Oomkes To execute those numbers you provided, what sort of equipment and infrastructure did you envision being used and potentially how much would that cost? @cwren2472
> 
> Thanks


Mark's fleet consists of 6 guys with shovels, 4 Snowdogg V plows on Ford F150s, and a 6' 8" Homesteader on a 91' Mazda B3000. That last one is his daily driver also, so it pulls double duty.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I just pictured a 16' ebling on a mazda...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> In all seriousness, I screwed up years ago. Had a chance to buy a Dairy Queen. The place was busy yesturday during the snow storm, and its a CASH business. If I was going to do something now, that's what I would be looking at.


Tell me about it, I had a chance to buy a UPS store from a old guy, Place is like a mad house doing a great business. I backed off because it did not have no real estate. I was wrong should of went for it.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

FredG said:


> Tell me about it, I had a chance to buy a UPS store from a old guy, Place is like a mad house doing a great business. I backed off because it did not have no real estate. I was wrong should of went for it.


Years ago. I talked to an old guy who had been in some type of business like us. He semi retired. Bought a dry cleaning biz. He said, I never thought there was that much cash in the world. And he didn't extend credit.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> In all seriousness, I screwed up years ago. Had a chance to buy a Dairy Queen. The place was busy yesturday during the snow storm, and its a CASH business. If I was going to do something now, that's what I would be looking at.


I have a good friend with three total... He does alright I think, but is for sure very seasonal... Maybe not dead in Winter but a huge difference between Summer. I don't know about a cash business, hardly anybody anymore carries cash its always debit cards etc... In fact we brought on the Square at our Little League park to help with that very issue this year. Big thing was having good managers as the biggest pita was dealing with all the high school kids working eves and weekends...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Totally different business type than a Diary Queen, but none of my customers carry cash. I go entire shifts without needing a cash drawer. Everything is credit card or check. A customer tried to pay for 34 cents in bolts with a card a couple of days ago.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> Years ago. I talked to an old guy who had been in some type of business like us. He semi retired. Bought a dry cleaning biz. He said, I never thought there was that much cash in the world. And he didn't extend credit.


I made my mistake when I sold the drive thru beer store I bought from my Uncle. It's hard for a Guy that been working in the dirt to stand behind a register and sorting cans. I just made to many mistakes in hind sight.

You can't go wrong with alcohol, Most people will buy there booze before they pay real bills. There was a low income apt complex next door you would not believe the money these people that are suppose to not have any money spent on beer. My Grandfather always told me you can't go wrong in the booze business, Once again my hard head would not take good advice.

So here I am all beat up from working hard dirty mostly everyday from working in the dirt or on equipment..:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

FredG said:


> You can't go wrong with alcohol, Most people will buy there booze before they pay real bills. There was a low income apt complex next door you would not believe the money these people that are suppose to not have any money spent on beer. My Grandfather always told me you can't go wrong in the booze business, Once again my hard head would not take good advice.


Did it also offer drive-through cigarette and lottery ticket sales? And accept food stamps for payment?

That would be the tri-fecta right there.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

let's try to get back on topic please


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Alcohol and death are recession proof...I would choose selling alcohol as I probably couldn't do the funeral business.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> let's try to get back on topic please


Offering Bob alternative business opportunities has to count as "somewhat on topic", no?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> Totally different business type than a Diary Queen, but none of my customers carry cash. I go entire shifts without needing a cash drawer. Everything is credit card or check. A customer tried to pay for 34 cents in bolts with a card a couple of days ago.


I try to keep 2 to 3 hun on me. My mechanics and parts guys give me a nice discount when I pay them cash. The neighbor hood tavern I go to don't take credit or debit so I need cash for that.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

cwren2472 said:


> Offering Bob alternative business opportunities has to count as "somewhat on topic", no?


If that's what he was looking for, maybe, but its not so let's get back to the topic


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> Did it also offer drive-through cigarette and lottery ticket sales? And accept food stamps for payment?
> 
> That would be the tri-fecta right there.


No you could not sell smokes or lottery tickets. The Liquor authority is strict on what you could sell. Beer soda and wine coolers etc. No wine or liquor. No food stamps for beer.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

FredG said:


> I try to keep 2 to 3 hun on me. My mechanics and parts guys give me a nice discount when I pay them cash. The neighbor hood tavern I go to don't take credit or debit so I need cash for that.


And I bet the local tavern offers you a frequent customer/cash/senior citizen/bulk discount too... Heck you probably drink for free once its all said and done...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> If that's what he was looking for, maybe, but its not so let's get back to the topic


Sorry already responded before I seen your threads. Just trying to give a young fella some good advice.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> And





Ajlawn1 said:


> And I bet the local tavern offers you a frequent customer/cash/senior citizen/bulk discount too... Heck you probably drink for free once its all said and done...


That would be nice, Unfortunately not true.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Alright, let's get this thread back on topic.

@Snowmanbob , we have not yet addressed sanding issues.

@Mark Oomkes uses 6 of these to handle all his sanding needs


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Alright, let's get this thread back on topic.
> 
> @Snowmanbob , we have not yet addressed sanding issues.
> 
> ...


I corrected our mistake...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I corrected our mistake...


2 per driveway seems a bit excessive; then again, I recall reading that you like to salt heavy, lots and dinner plate.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

I forgot to mention 1 of these for those "hard to hit" areas


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> 2 per driveway seems a bit excessive; then again, I recall reading that you like to salt heavy, lots and dinner plate.


That's how you make 3000 drives profitable you dump two cubes per drive and walk away for the rest of the year....


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Ajlawn1 said:


> That's how you make 3000 drives profitable you dump two cubes per drive and walk away for the rest of the year....
> 
> View attachment 179676


Efficiency. I approve of that.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> Mark's fleet consists of 6 guys with shovels, 4 Snowdogg V plows on Ford F150s, and a 6' 8" Homesteader on a 91' Mazda B3000. That last one is his daily driver also, so it pulls double duty.


Thanks.

Is this able to clear a driveway in 1 minute as mentioned in the math he provided?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Snowmanbob said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Is this able to clear a driveway in 1 minute as mentioned in the math he provided?


Depends on the direction of the wind and whether he plows with, or against, the coriolis effect.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> If that's what he was looking for, maybe, but its not so let's get back to the topic


I am here specifically for info on snow removal business, but I dont mind if they go bit off topic though.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Found it.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

jonniesmooth said:


> The 6 guys are on meth, it only take 2 of them to do a 1 min drive.
> I think I have video somewhere .


i assumed he had 6 people staff, and each guy doing a driveway with their truck.

What are your thoughts on the numbers that Mark provided? How do they compare to your area?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Snowmanbob said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Is this able to clear a driveway in 1 minute as mentioned in the math he provided?


Less


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

jonniesmooth said:


> Found it.


Great.
When do you use the truck with snow v, as opposed to the push type blower as seen in the video?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Hook...line...and sinker...


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

Alright, enough messing with the guy


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

"It has been well established that plowing professionals should endeavour to plow in a clockwise fashion, (i.e. against the Coriolis Effect, hereafter referred to as 'CE') in order to maximize the quantity of snow to be moved with the greatest of both time and, by extension, fuel economy. The natural tendency of a storm to follow the CE means that the snow will tend to accumulate faster in front of the snow removal equipment thereby allowing for quicker removal. Plowing against the CE essentially means that the driver is 'chasing' the snow he is trying to move and, obviously, expending excess time and effort in the process." - Associated Snow Specialists


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> Alright, enough messing with the guy


sorry. I'm done now. swear.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> Alright, enough messing with the guy


MJD, I'm sorry, but if he can't figure out that most of the info in this thread is complete and udder b.s. than he's lost the race before he ever got started.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

so, let's post crap and make fun, etc. rather than offering assistance? that's brilliant! Or, you could just refrain from posting at all in the thread instead, right?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> Alright, enough messing with the guy


I'm pretty sure he's messing with us.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm pretty sure he's messing with us.


If that's the case, which nobody is certain of, then again, why even bother posting?

And OP, if by chance, you are messing around then please move on...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> Or, you could just refrain from posting at all in the thread instead, right?


No problemo...I'm out.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> so, let's post crap and make fun, etc. rather than offering assistance? that's brilliant! Or, you could just refrain from posting at all in the thread instead, right?


Pretty sure there's been plenty of assistance given.
There's selective listening going on on Bob's part.
If he's offended, by someone else's witty comments/ advice, he's getting into the wrong business.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> If that's the case, which nobody is certain of, then again, why even bother posting?
> 
> And OP, if by chance, you are messing around then please move on...


why would I be "messing" and wasting my time?

Just cause something is obvious for people in the industry, you should know it is not the same for others. Like I said, I have zero experience and knowledge of the industry.

I speak with a lot of different people on various subjects, but this is strange experience here, that some people here feel superior to keep making snarky remarks just because they have a tiny window of knowledge that they specialize in.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

John_DeereGreen said:


> No problemo...I'm out.


Please be a man of your word. You said that the last time too.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

Snowmanbob said:


> Please be a man of your word. You said that the last time too.


Then take the advice some have given and please quit telling other members what to do, like you "own" the threads...I've closed two already and it isn't just everybody else's fault

so, back on topic or this one will be done also


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Snowmanbob said:


> Please be a man of your word. You said that the last time too.


Lol...ouch


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Snowmanbob said:


> Please be a man of your word. You said that the last time too.


I started off giving advice and sharing knowledge. Then you got offended and pissy when you weren't hearing what you wanted to hear.

Sorry it wasn't sugar coated enough for you.

Good luck.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Like cw mentioned the op has yet to touch on deicng...not to mention contract language, in event documentation, pre season and post season responsibilities, pitfalls, liability, etc etc. this thread has the potential to go on forever


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Just imagine the questions regarding differences in servicing parking decks, ramps, bridges and helixes. 

And the most complex question of them all… Shoes or no shoes


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> If that's the case, which nobody is certain of, then again, why even bother posting?
> 
> And OP, if by chance, you are messing around then please move on...


I might not be a Dr but I which end of a scalpel to use.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

cwren2472 said:


> "It has been well established that plowing professionals should endeavour to plow in a clockwise fashion, (i.e. against the Coriolis Effect, hereafter referred to as 'CE') in order to maximize the quantity of snow to be moved with the greatest of both time and, by extension, fuel economy. The natural tendency of a storm to follow the CE means that the snow will tend to accumulate faster in front of the snow removal equipment thereby allowing for quicker removal. Plowing against the CE essentially means that the driver is 'chasing' the snow he is trying to move and, obviously, expending excess time and effort in the process." - Associated Snow Specialists


This is actually good advice...as ups and many delivery services use the same routing, whereas the majority of turns made are to the right...not waiting for the light on lefts.Thumbs Up


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> This is actually good advice...as ups and many delivery services use the same routing, whereas the majority of turns made are to the right...not waiting for the light on lefts.Thumbs Up


I was sure at least one person reading that bull was going to pause the next time they were plowing and say "Hmmm... should I go clockwise after all?"


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Not to keep this going, but every single question that "bob" asked is a question that he would already know the answer to from the "seller." He is acting like someone who was handed a list of 3000 addresses and to whom was said "here, I know you've never plowed in your life but figure out how to make this work." Does that absurd? None of the questions are pertinent to purchasing an ESTABLISHED business as he "claims." And this by a person who supposedly has the means to purchase a business that we all know would be WELL into the millions. That is even ignoring the changes in his story.

On the contrary, he lashes out at anyone who questions his veracity and feeds into anyone who he can keep going. Just like a troll. Just like Fred said many posts ago.

@Snowmanbob please feel free to contradict me and tell us again how you are just "researching" your purchase of that mystery business - by asking how many people you need to handle those accounts. Gee, maybe the number of employees that that business has already, perhaps?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> If that's the case, which nobody is certain of, then again, why even bother posting?
> 
> And OP, if by chance, you are messing around then please move on...


Sorry, I just spent 13 hours plowing snow for real, on 4 hours sleep. Sat down on the couch amd logged in to catch up.
Walked right into this, couldn't resist.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mr.Markus said:


> This is actually good advice...as ups and many delivery services use the same routing, whereas the majority of turns made are to the right...not waiting for the light on lefts.Thumbs Up


That's an old cab driver trick.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Pretty sure there's been plenty of assistance given.
> There's selective listening going on on Bob's part.
> If he's offended, by someone else's witty comments/ advice, he's getting into the wrong business.


If you feel


cwren2472 said:


> Not to keep this going, but every single question that "bob" asked is a question that he would already know the answer to from the "seller." He is acting like someone who was handed a list of 3000 addresses and to whom was said "here, I know you've never plowed in your life but figure out how to make this work." Does that absurd? None of the questions are pertinent to purchasing an ESTABLISHED business as he "claims." And this by a person who supposedly has the means to purchase a business that we all know would be WELL into the millions. That is even ignoring the changes in his story.
> 
> On the contrary, he lashes out at anyone who questions his veracity and feeds into anyone who he can keep going. Just like a troll. Just like Fred said many posts ago.
> 
> @Snowmanbob please feel free to contradict me and tell us again how you are just "researching" your purchase of that mystery business - by asking how many people you need to handle those accounts. Gee, maybe the number of employees that that business has already, perhaps?


I will be getting this information from seller, but you dont want to buy a business solely based on what the seller will tell you. If you dont do your research beforehand, how would you know if the seller is telling the truth? How do you know if the seller has conveniently forgotten to mention few critical things? How do you know if the seller is not over-selling the opportunity? Its common sense.

I am yet to meet a seller who doesnt think their business is great opportunity and everything is perfect for which a buyer should be paying a premium.

I dont know what has happened on these forums before, that everyone is so paranoid about "trolling", "messing" etc while discounting the fact that there may be people in this world who dont know much about snow removal but be interested in pursuing a business opportunity.

But lets get back on topic please. If anyone is not comfortable with the direction of this thread, please feel free to ignore it.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I started off giving advice and sharing knowledge. Then you got offended and pissy when you weren't hearing what you wanted to hear.
> 
> Sorry it wasn't sugar coated enough for you.
> 
> Good luck.


I dont why you think I am offended with anything. I dont have any money invested yet nor am I emotionally invested in the snow removal business. its just a business opportunity I am trying to weigh and I am just collecting information here. You did info that was helpful in the beginning but was too vague, broad and general when we hit phase 2 of my process.

Anyways I think there is some misunderstanding.

But lets amicably move on.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Snowmanbob said:


> I will be getting this information from seller, but you dont want to buy a business solely based on what the seller will tell you. If you dont do your research beforehand, how would you know if the seller is telling the truth? How do you know if the seller has conveniently forgotten to mention few critical things? How do you know if the seller is not over-selling the opportunity? .


Duh. It's a safe assumption the owner is over selling. Once you get the information from him regarding details on his market, operation and infrastructure your questions can be more focused. You're looking for oversimplified answers, yet detail in an industry you don't understand.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Snowmanbob said:


> why would I be "messing" and wasting my time?
> 
> Just cause something is obvious for people in the industry, you should know it is not the same for others. Like I said, I have zero experience and knowledge of the industry.
> 
> I speak with a lot of different people on various subjects, but this is strange experience here, that some people here feel superior to keep making snarky remarks just because they have a tiny window of knowledge that they specialize in.


Bob most of us here besides the big landscapers this is something to do after the layoff, Just to try to add a few bucks to our earnings. I have said this before and I will say it again, My Construction Company produces enough earnings in the summer months to take me through the winter. There is plenty of my competitors that do nothing in the winter, This been going on forever and works here in NY.

The problem here even tho you are admitting to no knowledge in snow and ice you only want to accept advice that you think is useful to you and not the industry. It's just your questions are elementary and your not sure of the sale happening for you. Again you are getting ahead of yourself.

JMO you need to get down to the important stuff like the sale of the business and how much, Proof of the earnings for 8 to 10 years and what you are actually buying. Please keep in mind that you are not the first one coming here with the same questions you are asking for no other reason then a dream, This is why you get the responses you don't like.

I grew up in a Franchised car dealership. As a young man I learned from the professionals and I'm talking about people sent out by the manufacture. Once again if you were working in a Dealership and a potential Buyer comes in you have to know how to qualify them. If the guy is tire kicking and don't want to give you any credit info. or proof of funds you have nothing and are walking backwards.

IMO this is whats happening here with you. You want to skip all the stuff like what needs to happen to make the sale and just want to here what is on your agenda. Did I or did I not tell you that if you did not come up with the right info your threads would get locked. Please don't take this the wrong way but to us members you look like a troll. By no means do I think your a troll but you do not want to put first things first. Good Luck


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

For the record you do know there will be no bank interested to help you with it no matter how good your credit is. You would have to secure it with a home, stocks and bonds or cash assets etc. Something with value. At least in the states. Forgive me if it is different in Canada.

Most of these contractors selling there business will carry 3/4's of the sale or requires a size able cash principal. Just depends on what your buying. If it is just trade forget about it. Good Luck


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

FredG said:


> Bob most of us here besides the big landscapers this is something to do after the layoff, Just to try to add a few bucks to our earnings. I have said this before and I will say it again, My Construction Company produces enough earnings in the summer months to take me through the winter. There is plenty of my competitors that do nothing in the winter, This been going on forever and works here in NY.
> 
> The problem here even tho you are admitting to no knowledge in snow and ice you only want to accept advice that you think is useful to you and not the industry. It's just your questions are elementary and your not sure of the sale happening for you. Again you are getting ahead of yourself.
> 
> ...


My threads got locked because some people decided to engage in theatrics and personal slagging than engage respectfully, which triggered a chain reaction. It had little to do with my questions being elementary.

I am familiar with the process of purchasing a business. I was here to fill up some blanks oweing my to lack of domain expertise in the snow removal industry and get a sense of the operations. So may be there is misunderstanding of what I am looking to get out of this and what others think I should get out of it.


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## Snowmanbob (Mar 18, 2018)

Alright guys, I think I am done here. I wanted to get an idea of the industry and I think I got it.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Snowmanbob said:


> Alright guys, I think I am done here. I wanted to get an idea of the industry and I think I got it.


Allow me to be the first to like that post...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Allow me to be the first to like that post...


No one likes a bragger...


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

Snowmanbob said:


> Alright guys, I think I am done here. I wanted to get an idea of the industry and I think I got it.


alright, glad you got what you were looking for so safe to say this one has run its course as well Thumbs Up

and, just an fyi, no need to bump a thread back up top just to say you are done and yet still try to take shots at the other members when you are, in fact, complaining about those same members


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