# Economics of residential driveway snow removal business



## Snowmanbob

I am looking to get an idea of the economics of driveway snow removal biz that say manages 3000 driveways?

How would you run this operation?

How much would you charge your customers?

How many employees/subs would you have, in what roles and their wages ?

What sort of equipment would you provide ?

What equipment would you expect your employees or subs to own?

How much fuel, salt or any other items would you need and what would they cost?

What other infrastructure and operations items would you need, and how much would they cost you?

Anything else that is missing to run a successful operation this size?


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## John_DeereGreen

3000 driveways in a square mile is far different from 3000 driveways in 6 towns.

Price is based on costs of doing business and location.

Employees and subs relates to first answer. Pay relates to second part of second answer.

Most efficient and productive equipment that the market will bear the cost of.

Employees own nothing. Subs relate to fourth answer.

Fuel/salt/others relates to location, number of services, and the first answer.

No matter what you have, you'll always need something else. And it's never cheap.

Yes. An owner with hands on experience of doing it.

My .02 is that you probably shouldn't consider this venture without having someone right beside you that's already been there and done that at least on a decent scale. Take that advice for what you're paying for it.


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## Snowmanbob

John_DeereGreen said:


> 3000 driveways in a square mile is far different from 3000 driveways in 6 towns.
> 
> Price is based on costs of doing business and location.
> 
> Employees and subs relates to first answer. Pay relates to second part of second answer.
> 
> Most efficient and productive equipment that the market will bear the cost of.
> 
> Employees own nothing. Subs relate to fourth answer.
> 
> Fuel/salt/others relates to location, number of services, and the first answer.
> 
> No matter what you have, you'll always need something else. And it's never cheap.
> 
> Yes. An owner with hands on experience of doing it.
> 
> My .02 is that you probably shouldn't consider this venture without having someone right beside you that's already been there and done that at least on a decent scale. Take that advice for what you're paying for it.


Thanks John.

Looks like everything relies on the first answer... let's assume 3000 houses in 100 square miles.

I will definitely have current owner for couple of years to transition. But I like to do my own homework as much as i can, before I even speak with the seller.

If nothing comes out of it, I atlas i get some knowledge about an industry via this research... which is still worthwhile for me.


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## jonniesmooth

3000 driveways X 5 minutes (average, including drive time) each= 15,000 minutes, or
250 hours. divided by 20 tractors with inverted blowers=
12.5 hours to service them.
20 tractors at $50,000 ea= $1,000,000.
IDK if I'm reasonable at all but if I had a $50,000 tractor and you wanted me to sub for you I'd want at least $1,000 for a 12 hour day.
That would be 150 drives at less then $7/drive.
So if you can get $20-30/ drive you should cover your expenses.
3,000 X $25 (ave)= $75,000
20 subs at $1,000/day= $20,000
what about sidewalks?
If I'm bringing a $50k tractor to the party, I'm not shoveling nothing.
Let's say you only have 1,000 accounts with walks and they take about 7 minutes each.
7,000 minutes, or 116 hours
divided by 12 hours= 10 guys, who are we kidding, double that number
, you'll be lucky to get 1/2 of them to show up.
20 guys at $15/hour= $300 X 12 hours= $3,600. Even if you had small sidewalk tractors with brooms the time is still about the same. Loading unloading. Then there's the cost of trucks,trailers to haul them around.
You could sub this out too. Figure $80-100/ hour for a sub with a small tractor

I have 30 accounts, a couple dozen drives and 8 businesses.
I have a shovel guy that goes out ahead of the tractor on the residential side ( he does the business walks too, if the timing is right). He shovels stoop, steps, porches etc, so the tractor guy doesn't have too. I don't have a $50k tractor w/ inverted blower.
Takes him about 5 hours.
Tractor route takes about the same.
The plowing route takes 8-12 hours.

Your number's scare the crap out of me. I have no desire to have 100 accounts.


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## cwren2472

Snowmanbob said:


> I am looking to get an idea of the economics of driveway snow removal biz that say manages 3000 driveways?
> 
> How would you run this operation?
> 
> How much would you charge your customers?
> 
> How many employees/subs would you have, in what roles and their wages ?
> 
> What sort of equipment would you provide ?
> 
> What equipment would you expect your employees or subs to own?
> 
> How much fuel, salt or any other items would you need and what would they cost?
> 
> What other infrastructure and operations items would you need, and how much would they cost you?
> 
> Anything else that is missing to run a successful operation this size?


I'll preface this by saying that I don't plow snow, but I know enough that a lot of red flags are raised by your questions.

#1, 3000 identical driveways, evenly spaced apart, in a 100 mile square area exist only in a fairy tale. Expecting to price them all identically is equally Fairy-tale-ish.

#2, to handle that many accounts, you are going to need many, many dozens of employees minimum, if not into the 3 digits. Do you have any experience managing a crew that size, cuz your questions (such as 'how much do you pay all of them') seem to imply you don't

#3, the equipment and business to handle that many accounts is many millions of dollars. If you know absolutely nothing about the industry (and your questions about even the most basic of details implies you dont) then you probably should invest your money elsewhere for now


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## cwren2472

Does SimCity have a SnowPlow edition? If not, someone should work on that.


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## the Suburbanite

Didn't we go over this in the other thread? If not, I would:

-Get a grant and buy an old Walter and put a V plow on it.
-Ask the government to subsidize my work so I can undercut all the competition.
-Give my employees a totally living wage like $45K, and full benefits. They could file for unemployment in the summer. All of them would be head shovel technicians. They would all receive one red plastic shovel and matching red mittens. They should have black knit caps (with eyeholes (in case of Resist!))
-The Walter would be converted to run on biofuel. For salt I would harvest my employees tears every time it snows.
-I would get a free googlephone # to run my operation with.

I think I could run this out of one parking spot. I would store the shovels in the Walter when we finish our route.


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## cwren2472

the Suburbanite said:


> Didn't we go over this in the other thread? If not, I would:
> 
> -Get a grant and buy an old Walter and put a V plow on it.
> -Ask the government to subsidize my work so I can undercut all the competition.
> -Give my employees a totally living wage like $45K, and full benefits. They could file for unemployment in the summer. All of them would be head shovel technicians. They would all receive one red plastic shovel and matching red mittens. They should have black knit caps (with eyeholes (in case of Resist!))
> -The Walter would be converted to run on biofuel. For salt I would harvest my employees tears every time it snows.
> -I would get a free googlephone # to run my operation with.
> 
> I think I could run this out of one parking spot. I would store the shovels in the Walter when we finish our route.


I assume for the biofuel, you steal cooking oil from the drums outside all the local fast food joints.

Does the guy running the Walter make $47k or is that guy you?


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## FredG

the Suburbanite said:


> Didn't we go over this in the other thread? If not, I would:
> 
> -Get a grant and buy an old Walter and put a V plow on it.
> -Ask the government to subsidize my work so I can undercut all the competition.
> -Give my employees a totally living wage like $45K, and full benefits. They could file for unemployment in the summer. All of them would be head shovel technicians. They would all receive one red plastic shovel and matching red mittens. They should have black knit caps (with eyeholes (in case of Resist!))
> -The Walter would be converted to run on biofuel. For salt I would harvest my employees tears every time it snows.
> -I would get a free googlephone # to run my operation with.
> 
> I think I could run this out of one parking spot. I would store the shovels in the Walter when we finish our route.


Lol


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## FredG

OP, Again you are getting ahead of yourself. You got 2 threads going I think? You don't know what your buying or leasing to own. You seem to be a nice guy and absorbing the knowledge that's been provided for you.

You need to answer questions asked by members, your response is good advice if I get that far You may not get that far then this info is worthless. Not to be a jerk but you got to leave information on questions asked to you.

If you don't get some solid details on what your intentions are and what the Seller wants to do to make this sale work to your benefit, Otherwise your walking in a backwards direction.

I'm trying to prevent your posts from being made into a joke lol and possibly MJD locking the threads. The questions above could and will be answered when the time is right. We don't even no what state and region your in.


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## Snowmanbob

jonniesmooth said:


> 3000 driveways X 5 minutes (average, including drive time) each= 15,000 minutes, or
> 250 hours. divided by 20 tractors with inverted blowers=
> 12.5 hours to service them.
> 20 tractors at $50,000 ea= $1,000,000.
> IDK if I'm reasonable at all but if I had a $50,000 tractor and you wanted me to sub for you I'd want at least $1,000 for a 12 hour day.
> That would be 150 drives at less then $7/drive.
> So if you can get $20-30/ drive you should cover your expenses.
> 3,000 X $25 (ave)= $75,000
> 20 subs at $1,000/day= $20,000
> what about sidewalks?
> If I'm bringing a $50k tractor to the party, I'm not shoveling nothing.
> Let's say you only have 1,000 accounts with walks and they take about 7 minutes each.
> 7,000 minutes, or 116 hours
> divided by 12 hours= 10 guys, who are we kidding, double that number
> , you'll be lucky to get 1/2 of them to show up.
> 20 guys at $15/hour= $300 X 12 hours= $3,600. Even if you had small sidewalk tractors with brooms the time is still about the same. Loading unloading. Then there's the cost of trucks,trailers to haul them around.
> You could sub this out too. Figure $80-100/ hour for a sub with a small tractor
> 
> I have 30 accounts, a couple dozen drives and 8 businesses.
> I have a shovel guy that goes out ahead of the tractor on the residential side ( he does the business walks too, if the timing is right). He shovels stoop, steps, porches etc, so the tractor guy doesn't have too. I don't have a $50k tractor w/ inverted blower.
> Takes him about 5 hours.
> Tractor route takes about the same.
> The plowing route takes 8-12 hours.
> 
> Your number's scare the crap out of me. I have no desire to have 100 accounts.


Excellent!.

Some numbers like this helps a lot. I dont care if they are spot on. I can throw in a margin of error and at least get rough idea of the components involved in an operation.

I find the noise to signal ratio is pretty high on this forum. It would be simpler if folks just answered straight like the you did, with some meat and numbers, instead of beating around the bush, with vague stuff and fluff.

Thank you!


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## Snowmanbob

cwren2472 said:


> I'll preface this by saying that I don't plow snow, but I know enough that a lot of red flags are raised by your questions.
> 
> #1, 3000 identical driveways, evenly spaced apart, in a 100 mile square area exist only in a fairy tale. Expecting to price them all identically is equally Fairy-tale-ish.
> 
> #2, to handle that many accounts, you are going to need many, many dozens of employees minimum, if not into the 3 digits. Do you have any experience managing a crew that size, cuz your questions (such as 'how much do you pay all of them') seem to imply you don't
> 
> #3, the equipment and business to handle that many accounts is many millions of dollars. If you know absolutely nothing about the industry (and your questions about even the most basic of details implies you dont) then you probably should invest your money elsewhere for now


How would you a run an operation like this?

Please, if you have the ability to think through and analyse, please share your input, instead of just writing generic fluff.

I have already said that I dont know anything about the industry and that I am researching.

People get in and out of businesses all the time. Most things are not rocket science. It just takes smarts and hard work and one can figure anything out.


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## Snowmanbob

FredG said:


> OP, Again you are getting ahead of yourself. You got 2 threads going I think? You don't know what your buying or leasing to own. You seem to be a nice guy and absorbing the knowledge that's been provided for you.
> 
> You need to answer questions asked by members, your response is good advice if I get that far You may not get that far then this info is worthless. Not to be a jerk but you got to leave information on questions asked to you.
> 
> If you don't get some solid details on what your intentions are and what the Seller wants to do to make this sale work to your benefit, Otherwise your walking in a backwards direction.
> 
> I'm trying to prevent your posts from being made into a joke lol and possibly MJD locking the threads. The questions above could and will be answered when the time is right. We don't even no what state and region your in.


Sorry. I think I already replied to that question. Unfortunately, I cant give specific location because of confidentiality agreement with the broker. They dont want news to get around that business is for sale, for fear that employees, customers may quit sensing changes or ambiguity in the future with the sale.

But as a general region - its in north eastern canada


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## cwren2472

Snowmanbob said:


> How would you a run an operation like this?


I wouldn't. I know that I don't have nearly enough experience to do so. Nor do probably 90% of the people on here who are all way more experienced than me.


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## Snowmanbob

cwren2472 said:


> I wouldn't. I know that I don't have nearly enough experience to do so. Nor do probably 90% of the people on here who are all way more experienced than me.


O OK. No issues then.

Well I will take what I can get.

and may be hire a consultant later once I get atleast get a basic idea, if I decide to pursue this further.


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## cwren2472

Snowmanbob said:


> O OK. No issues then.
> 
> Well I will take what I can get.
> 
> and may be hire a consultant later once I get atleast get a basic idea, if I decide to pursue this further.


Ask @Mark Oomkes. I'm sure he'd be happy to work with you as a paid consultant for a very reasonable fee.


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## Snowmanbob

cwren2472 said:


> Ask @Mark Oomkes. I'm sure he'd be happy to work with you as a paid consultant for a very reasonable fee.


Great. Thanks.

I want to put in some effort first and figure out some basic answers myself and then get a consultant to pursue further.

I will keep Mark in my notes. thanks for the referral.


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## Mark Oomkes

jonniesmooth said:


> 3000 driveways X 5 minutes (average, including drive time) each


Better have a tighter route than that.

And depending on the size of a driveway...with a tractor and blower more like 60-90 seconds per driveway.



jonniesmooth said:


> 12.5 hours to service them.


This is a good way to not be in business the second year. 6 hours max for resis.



jonniesmooth said:


> So if you can get $20-30/ drive you should cover your expenses.


You serious Clark???


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## cwren2472

Mark Oomkes said:


> You serious Clark???


I'm not sure that he is off that you could be profitable at $20-30 each on our hypothetical line of 3000 hypothetical driveways all conveniently right in a row and identical. Heck, you could have probably knocked two of them out while I was typing this.

Course, you probably get paid in Monopoly money, too.


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## Snowmanbob

Mark Oomkes said:


> You serious Clark???


If not $30/ drive, in your opinion how much should the business make per drive?


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## Snowmanbob

cwren2472 said:


> I'm not sure that he is off that you could be profitable at $30 each on our hypothetical line of 3000 hypothetical driveways all conveniently right in a row and identical. Heck, you could have probably knocked two of them out while I was typing this.
> 
> Course, you probably get paid in Monopoly money, too.


there you go again bud. Not contributing anything specific and quantifiable, but only adding to the noise.

Atleast Mark and Johnnie are putting out numbers to be scrutinized and sharing their input, that can be worked towards.


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## Mark Oomkes

Snowmanbob said:


> If not $30/ drive, in your opinion how much should the business make per drive?


You're asking 2 different questions. Dollar per plow and dollar per hour are not the same unless it takes you an hour to plow a driveway at $30.

I need to find that thread from '07 or '08 back. I explained it there. Bunch of bad at math members didn't understand what I was telling them.


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## Snowmanbob

Mark Oomkes said:


> You're asking 2 different questions. Dollar per plow and dollar per hour are not the same unless it takes you an hour to plow a driveway at $30.
> 
> I need to find that thread from '07 or '08 back. I explained it there. Bunch of bad at math members didn't understand what I was telling them.


I dont see hour mentioned here, I see drive.

[/QUOTE]

If not $30/ drive, in your opinion how much should the business make per drive?

[/QUOTE]

But I will have to dig up that old thread of yours then.


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## Mark Oomkes

Snowmanbob said:


> I dont see hour mentioned here, I see drive.


Guess my eyes are getting worse...I might need that IV Defcon is using.

My apologies.

The answer to your question is: enough that you can make money but not so much that you can't build route density. It is also what the market can bare. And competition dependent.

I am amazed that guys can get $20-30\drive for a "normal" 2 car drive. I would love to, but I can't, so we have to find ways of being more efficient and make money at lower rates.

In all reality, you should talk to @Neige , he is one of the masters of this type of operation. I'm nowhere close. But I will try to help.


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## Mark Oomkes

Mark Oomkes said:


> I need to find that thread from '07 or '08 back. I explained it there. Bunch of bad at math members didn't understand what I was telling them.


@Michael J. Donovan Is there a way to find old threads that you locked? I dug this one up a year or so ago and there were a few new posts then you locked it. Any ideas?


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## cwren2472

Mark Oomkes said:


> I am amazed that guys can get $20-30\drive for a "normal" 2 car drive. I would love to, but I can't, so we have to find ways of being more efficient and make money at lower rates.


The last storm, I paid $50 to have my 2-car drive SHOVELED. That did include a small walk-way and set of stairs, at least.

(the above is my non-snarky contribution to the conversation)


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## Mark Oomkes

I don't remember what this thread was all about, but it was the one where I found the original thread I was referring to.

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/me...way-clearing-ideas.169508/page-2#post-2182461

Original thread:

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/gies-snow-magazine-cover.41959/


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## Mark Oomkes

Mark Oomkes said:


> @Michael J. Donovan Is there a way to find old threads that you locked? I dug this one up a year or so ago and there were a few new posts then you locked it. Any ideas?


Nevermind...Thumbs Up


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## Mike_PS

Mark Oomkes said:


> @Michael J. Donovan Is there a way to find old threads that you locked? I dug this one up a year or so ago and there were a few new posts then you locked it. Any ideas?


Yes, you can search any thread...either search via the thread starter or the thread title if you know it, and use the date finder in the search as well


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## Snowmanbob

Mark Oomkes said:


> Guess my eyes are getting worse...I might need that IV Defcon is using.
> 
> My apologies.
> 
> The answer to your question is: enough that you can make money but not so much that you can't build route density. It is also what the market can bare. And competition dependent.
> 
> I am amazed that guys can get $20-30\drive for a "normal" 2 car drive. I would love to, but I can't, so we have to find ways of being more efficient and make money at lower rates.
> 
> In all reality, you should talk to @Neige , he is one of the masters of this type of operation. I'm nowhere close. But I will try to help.


haha no issues.

How much do you charge per drive?

It also takes you 60 - 90 seconds/drive right?
So in your coverage area, how many drives do you endup doing in an hour?

and how often would you have to do the drives in a winter season (5 months?)?


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## jonniesmooth

Mark Oomkes said:


> Better have a tighter route than that.
> 
> And depending on the size of a driveway...with a tractor and blower more like 60-90 seconds per driveway.
> 
> This is a good way to not be in business the second year. 6 hours max for resis.
> 
> You serious Clark???


Mark, thanks, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

But would you like it better if I said 2 driveways every 3 minutes with2 min drive in between?
It's 3,000 driveways, we're talking averages here. Maybe you do 100 in an hour but then takes 15 minutes to drive to the next sub division? What about a fuel stop, or a bathroom break?
There's way too many variables to argue about.
I've got plenty of customers who prefer for me to wait till it quits snowing before we come.
So you build your route with the cry babies at the front and the little old ladies at the end.
And 12 hours is just fine.
Cuz, you have to be starting a route this size before it quits snowing, I'd bet. So the front end of it you end up running twice anyway.
That's when you pick up the "wait till it's done" people.
The people who want premium service pay a premium price, the ones that cam wait get a price break.

The other thing you didn't figure from my $20-30/ drive is that you have to convert that to a seasonal price. 
Nobody is doing stuff on this scale and billing per event, are they? That sounds totally crazy to me.

Say 20 2"+ events for a 6 month season @ $30=$ xxx or $xxx/ month,
If you pay me 1/2 by Dec 1 and 1/2 by Feb.1, I'll take 2 payments of $xxx.
If you pay me up front one payment of $xxx.
Put in whatever #'s your area will support.


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## Snowmanbob

Mark Oomkes said:


> I don't remember what this thread was all about, but it was the one where I found the original thread I was referring to.
> 
> https://www.plowsite.com/threads/me...way-clearing-ideas.169508/page-2#post-2182461
> 
> Original thread:
> 
> https://www.plowsite.com/threads/gies-snow-magazine-cover.41959/


O that stuff looks like its got some great info in it.

Now, it would be great, if I can find the original article in the trade mag that triggered the debate. But atleast I know there is a trade mag for the industry.

What are some industry mags you recommend?


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## Snowmanbob

jonniesmooth said:


> Mark, thanks, that's exactly the point I was trying to make.
> 
> But would you like it better if I said 2 driveways every 3 minutes with2 min drive in between?
> It's 3,000 driveways, we're talking averages here. Maybe you do 100 in an hour but then takes 15 minutes to drive to the next sub division? What about a fuel stop, or a bathroom break?
> There's way too many variables to argue about.
> I've got plenty of customers who prefer for me to wait till it quits snowing before we come.
> So you build your route with the cry babies at the front and the little old ladies at the end.
> And 12 hours is just fine.
> Cuz, you have to be starting a route this size before it quits snowing, I'd bet. So the front end of it you end up running twice anyway.
> That's when you pick up the "wait till it's done" people.
> The people who want premium service pay a premium price, the ones that cam wait get a price break.
> 
> The other thing you didn't figure from my $20-30/ drive is that you have to convert that to a seasonal price. Say 20 2"+ events for a 6 month season @ $30=$ xxx or $xxx/ month,
> If you pay me 1/2 by Dec 1 and 1/2 by Feb.1, I'll take 2 payments of $xxx.
> If you pay me up front one payment of $xxx.
> Put in whatever #'s your area will support.


man your 2 answers are SOOOOO informative!

Numbers, analysis and assumptions declared. TOP NOTCH!

None of the other "it is more than you think... it is higher than you can afford... it is lesser than you think... blah blah blah".


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## BossPlow2010

Snowmanbob said:


> O that stuff looks like its got some great info in it.
> 
> Now, it would be great, if I can find the original article in the trade mag that triggered the debate. But atleast I know there is a trade mag for the industry.
> 
> What are some industry mags you recommend?


http://bfy.tw/HEr7


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## jonniesmooth

Mark Oomkes said:


> I don't remember what this thread was all about, but it was the one where I found the original thread I was referring to.
> 
> https://www.plowsite.com/threads/me...way-clearing-ideas.169508/page-2#post-2182461
> 
> Original thread:
> 
> https://www.plowsite.com/threads/gies-snow-magazine-cover.41959/


So, we should be charging what was being charged 8 years ago?
Your contending that they are still making A profit at those prices today? They certainly can't be making the same profit?
I don't like that idea.
Those $10-12/ drives don't get out of the tractor either, I bet.
That level of non service wouldn't fly here. 
That would be called "cheap and dirty".


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## Snowmanbob

BossPlow2010 said:


> http://bfy.tw/HEr7


thats general leadership stuff.

I am talking about mags specific to the snow plowing industry. Also preferably what magazines do YOU read. Not just a random list of stuff.


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## Snowmanbob

jonniesmooth said:


> So, we should be charging what was being charged 8 years ago?
> Your contending that they are still making A profit at those prices today? They certainly can't be making the same profit?
> I don't like that idea.
> Those $10-12/ drives don't get out of the tractor either, I bet.
> That level of non service wouldn't fly here.
> That would be called "cheap and dirty".


 I think what Mark meant that 8 years those numbers made sense, but others were arguing that it was not.


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## Mark Oomkes

jonniesmooth said:


> So, we should be charging what was being charged 8 years ago?


Most of my pricing is less than what it was 20 years ago. Is it right?



jonniesmooth said:


> Your contending that they are still making A profit at those prices today?


Sure could. Just because you can't doesn't mean they can't.



jonniesmooth said:


> They certainly can't be making the same profit?


How do you know?



jonniesmooth said:


> Those $10-12/ drives don't get out of the tractor either, I bet.


We shovel 2 residences using the tractor operator because the shovel crew isn't close enough. The rest are done by a separate crew.



jonniesmooth said:


> That level of non service wouldn't fly here.


It's regional...around here a good number of people don't mind the 16-18" of snow left by the garage door.



jonniesmooth said:


> That would be called "cheap and dirty".


It's "normal" around here.


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## FredG

Snowmanbob said:


> Sorry. I think I already replied to that question. Unfortunately, I cant give specific location because of confidentiality agreement with the broker. They dont want news to get around that business is for sale, for fear that employees, customers may quit sensing changes or ambiguity in the future with the sale.
> 
> But as a general region - its in north eastern canada


You know what I think your blowing smoke, People are giving you advice and you want to say it don't qualify, Why are you asking us for? Why don't you ask the Guy your going to be giving all your Money to for a route that's worth nothing.

Whatever we get for driveways here is not going to help you in Canada, Someone would have to be in your region to help you. Guys get from $7.00 to $85.00 for driveways, Did that help you out? Your asking all these questions and you don't even no what your buying if you are, Typically if it's 40 driveways or 5000 there worth a lead fee that is very little money without real estate and equipment.

I tried to warn you, I don't see any of your post lasting before MJD locks them out. FWIW you can't sell something that is not yours. Contractors don't own customers. By any chance do you own tankers and clean grease traps? Your reminding me of a fella that use to post here.

Furthermore what makes you so sure everybody wants to give you free advice? I could careless about this seller or broker. You need to start answering some questions asked or I guarantee you your threads will be a train wreck which is already starting to happen.


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## Defcon 5

jonniesmooth said:


> So, we should be charging what was being charged 8 years ago?
> Your contending that they are still making A profit at those prices today? They certainly can't be making the same profit?
> I don't like that idea.
> Those $10-12/ drives don't get out of the tractor either, I bet.
> That level of non service wouldn't fly here.
> That would be called "cheap and dirty".


I wish in some cases I could get pricing from eight years ago....

It's a hard concept for some to grasp what mark is presenting here....I boil it down to the simplest of terms...What is your Truck/ Piece of equipment making per hour


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## cwren2472

FredG said:


> Furthermore what makes you so sure everybody wants to give you free advice?


Yes, some of us are just here to poke the bear until MJD shows up.


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## Mike_PS

cwren2472 said:


> Yes, some of us are just here to poke the bear until MJD shows up.


or, you could just ignore the thread...and to the OP, people are offering you good advice and suggestions so if you don't want to take it, why did you start the thread?


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## cwren2472

Michael J. Donovan said:


> or, you could just ignore the thread...and to the OP, people are offering you good advice and suggestions so if you don't want to take it, why did you start the thread?


Hey, I DID offer a price comparison somewhere.


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## John_DeereGreen

Michael J. Donovan said:


> or, you could just ignore the thread...and to the OP, people are offering you good advice and suggestions so if you don't want to take it, why did you start the thread?


Because it's not the advice he wanted to hear?


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## Snowmanbob

Michael J. Donovan said:


> or, you could just ignore the thread...and to the OP, people are offering you good advice and suggestions so if you don't want to take it, why did you start the thread?


I am taking in all the info. I dont know why you think I am not.

However, I do find, some people who dont have experience about the scale of business I am talking about, are pretending to know stuff and answering vague stuff like "it is more than you can handle.. blah blah", then refusing to put quantify anything, out of fear that it will show they are out of depth,instead of giving their opinion based on their scale of business or experience and declaring their assumptions etc.

Although over time I am learning to weed out such posts.

I also find some people have differing opinions on pricing, operations etc. So is pointed out my Mark & Johnnie's conversation above. This all helps me understand the biz.

This is not a binary conversation with a yes/no answer.


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## Snowmanbob

John_DeereGreen said:


> Because it's not the advice he wanted to hear?


the post is about how YOU would run an operation of this scale.

There is no advice being asked in this post. This post looks to spark a healthy debate on operations etc and get different perspectives and how everyone would handle such an operation and get an idea of the economics behind it.

Look at Johnnie's first answer and compare that with yours.


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## Snowmanbob

cwren2472 said:


> Hey, I DID offer a price comparison somewhere.


Thanks for that


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## Mike_PS

let's get back to the discussion, enough of the he said, she said...an if you don't want to offer advice or further assist with the discussion, don't post in the thread any longer


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## Snowmanbob

FredG said:


> You know what I think your blowing smoke, People are giving you advice and you want to say it don't qualify, Why are you asking us for? Why don't you ask the Guy your going to be giving all your Money to for a route that's worth nothing.
> 
> Whatever we get for driveways here is not going to help you in Canada, Someone would have to be in your region to help you. Guys get from $7.00 to $85.00 for driveways, Did that help you out? Your asking all these questions and you don't even no what your buying if you are, Typically if it's 40 driveways or 5000 there worth a lead fee that is very little money without real estate and equipment.
> 
> I tried to warn you, I don't see any of your post lasting before MJD locks them out. FWIW you can't sell something that is not yours. Contractors don't own customers. By any chance do you own tankers and clean grease traps? Your reminding me of a fella that use to post here.
> 
> Furthermore what makes you so sure everybody wants to give you free advice? I could careless about this seller or broker. You need to start answering some questions asked or I guarantee you your threads will be a train wreck which is already starting to happen.


I have already noted what you have mentioned about routes, equipment, real estate. Great points by the way.

This post is about understanding the economics behind running a business serving 3000 driveways and how would you approach it.


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## Snow tracker

I think he wants numbers thrown out there to see them run this way and that way. Then he could plug in his own numbers as the information is available from his seller.

Unfortunately there are just to many variables to set a firm price per driveway. This is not Netflix where you can offer one price for every driveway. That price may need to change as compition moves into the area or your equipment allocation makes you more or less efficient.

My area a common price per drive is $35 to $40. Now we are talking a resort area in the country. Most drives are 500 to 1000 feet long. And can be spread out for miles. We average $45 per and offer a better level of service than the average guy. (I believe) we have some drives we plow for $18 in a HOA and others we plow for $125. My point it this until we know what type of area, how spread out, what the marker expects and can bear, we can not give out much for comparison in numbers. Route density is key. Opperator experience is another key.

The point is that these numbers do not mean a thing with out your specific over head, density and market capability


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## Snowmanbob

Snow tracker said:


> I think he wants numbers thrown out there to see them run this way and that way. Then he could plug in his own numbers as the information is available from his seller.
> 
> Unfortunately there are just to many variables to set a firm price per driveway. This is not Netflix where you can offer one price for every driveway. That price may need to change as compition moves into the area or your equipment allocation makes you more or less efficient.
> 
> My area a common price per drive is $35 to $40. Now we are talking a resort area in the country. Most drives are 500 to 1000 feet long. And can be spread out for miles. We average $45 per and offer a better level of service than the average guy. (I believe) we have some drives we plow for $18 in a HOA and others we plow for $125. My point it this until we know what type of area, how spread out, what the marker expects and can bear, we can not give out much for comparison in numbers. Route density is key. Opperator experience is another key.


Beautiful!!!

Articulate, brief and informative.

I dont mean to become an over night expert, but getting a bunch of opinions and numbers on how people handle their biz or would handle this scenario helps a lot. I can then stitch all the opinions, numbers and build some sort of mental picture.

what is HOA by the way?

What is ideal route density, or is there minimum density?


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## Mark Oomkes

I'm not sure what to think. I don't know if Snowmanbob is truly trying to gain information and knowledge before the purchase or if it's something else. 

Because if he's really looking at buying a company that already has 3,000 customers, many if not all these questions have already been answered and the "problems" worked through: charge per driveway, equipment, # of employees, production rates, subs, etc. 

Maybe he's just early on in the purchasing process and I'm clueless because I've never bought a company before other than buying mine from my father but basically I was running it already. 

There's definitely some questions I won't be answering.


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## FredG

http://www.snowmagazineonline.com/article/snow-1110-paul-vanderson-cover-story/
There you go. Start here, When you want to know how to buy a business go back to your other post.


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## Snow tracker

HOA home owners association 

Ideal route density is every single house


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## Snowmanbob

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm not sure what to think. I don't know if Snowmanbob is truly trying to gain information and knowledge before the purchase or if it's something else.
> 
> Because if he's really looking at buying a company that already has 3,000 customers, many if not all these questions have already been answered and the "problems" worked through: charge per driveway, equipment, # of employees, production rates, subs, etc.
> 
> Maybe he's just early on in the purchasing process and I'm clueless because I've never bought a company before other than buying mine from my father but basically I was running it already.
> 
> There's definitely some questions I won't be answering.


I am very early on in the process.

Yes over time a lot of stuff has been covered.

In this post, I was looking for specifics on how would YOU run an operation of this scale? We have covered a lot of general advice in earlier thread I made.


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## Snowmanbob

Snow tracker said:


> HOA home owners association
> 
> Ideal route density is every single house


Thanks!!

Such a relief to get tight simple answers.

If it was some other folks here they would have answered it such... "if you dont know what HOA, you are no way prepared to buy a business. This is some basic stuff one is expected to know. I recommend you dont get into this. Why do you think you can do this? Blah blah..."

So after all those words, there is zero progress in the conversation, just another bunch of side line commentary. I dont know if they are doing it on purpose or if they even know they are doing it.


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## BossPlow2010

.[/QUOTE]


Snowmanbob said:


> I have already noted what you have mentioned about routes, equipment, real estate. Great points by the way.
> 
> This post is about understanding the economics behind running a business serving 3000 driveways and how would you approach it.


Many of us here are consultants for our own businesses and clients, that doesn't mean we are your consultants.

You've been provided with valuable information and to be quite frank, your are in over your head whether you want to listen to it or not is up to you.

There's people here that run operations that are that size as well as much larger.

Suppose you were a firefighter, and some teenage kid came along and became chief.
Sure he can probably fit into the clothes and wear the hat, but do you really think he should be running a Department with absolutely no expierence?
This is similar to your situation, the questions you're asking are elementary, coupled with the lack of heading the advice shows that you're setting yourself up for failure.


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## Snow tracker

In this post, I was looking for specifics on how would YOU run an operation of this scale? We have covered a lot of general advice in earlier thread I made.[/QUOTE]

First thing ( I ) would do is see the financials, P&L with tax returns to back them, with out that there is nothing to talk about, especially on social media.


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## FredG

Snow tracker said:


> In this post, I was looking for specifics on how would YOU run an operation of this scale? We have covered a lot of general advice in earlier thread I made.


First thing ( I ) would do is see the financials, P&L with tax returns to back them, with out that there is nothing to talk about, especially on social media.[/QUOTE]
He has already been told this, Over and Over.


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## Snow tracker

Snowmanbob said:


> Thanks!!
> 
> Such a relief to get tight simple answers.
> 
> If it was some other folks here they would have answered it such... "if you dont know what HOA, you are no way prepared to buy a business. This is some basic stuff one is expected to know. I recommend you dont get into this. Why do you think you can do this? Blah blah..."
> 
> So after all those words, there is zero progress in the conversation, just another bunch of side line commentary. I dont know if they are doing it on purpose or if they even know they are doing it.


You have to know that over they years hundreds of guys have posted here "new to plowing what should I charge?" " how do I make as much as you with out putting in any time? " and it gets old for these guys who have built their businesses piece by piece, year by year to take them all seriously. Most come, start up, loose interest and are gone leaving a black mark on the industry as a whole. So yes these guys are very calloused to this type of thread. And rightly so. Best to person to seek advice from at this point is the seller in my opinion.


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## Snowmanbob

FredG said:


> He has already been told this, Over and Over.


Dude i know how to purchase a business. how business purchase works.

Although dont make stuff up now. No one ever mentioned about P&L and tax returns before Snow Tracker did. and for you to mention "over and over" .. in that case, please point out 5 times this stuff was mentioned in earlier posts, else we will know you just here create a mess.

Please refrain frm commenting unless you have something tangible to add to the post.


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## Snowmanbob

Snow tracker said:


> You have to know that over they years hundreds of guys have posted here "new to plowing what should I charge?" " how do I make as much as you with out putting in any time? " and it gets old for these guys who have built their businesses piece by piece, year by year to take them all seriously. Most come, start up, loose interest and are gone leaving a black mark on the industry as a whole. So yes these guys are very calloused to this type of thread. And rightly so. Best to person to seek advice from at this point is the seller in my opinion.


 I get your point. But no one has been able to articulate like that. People just go off on tangent and add little value and create lot of noise.

Also people can simply point to a thread that has addressed thiis already, or ignore this thread completely. I dont understand the point of coming in saying a lot of words, with zero value and wasting everyones time.

I may not be putting in time to build the business, but I am paying for it. Thats how business world works. You build up a business with sweat equity or you can acquire it by paying for it.


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## John_DeereGreen

So go buy the damn business and then you'll have all the answers to your theoretical questions.


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## Snowmanbob

John_DeereGreen said:


> So go buy the damn business and then you'll have all the answers to your theoretical questions.


Dude why are you coming this thread to comment on stuff you dont like. Why not just refrain?


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## JustJeff

Yes Bob, most guys (if any) on here don't run A. an operation of that size (by number of customers, not revenue), and B. an operation with that niche of doing strictly residential, and C, an operation that probably uses pretty much strictly tractors to do the job. That is a very niche market, more so because of the sheer size of it. There are probably less than 5 companies in this country that run an operation like that. But even though we don't know THAT specific type of operation, we know our operations, and the problems/challenges that they pose to us, on a much smaller scale. I know the headaches I deal with, with just my tiny 3 truck operation. And that alone lets me know that I have no desire to be in the whirlwind of a business that you're talking about. But most guys are still trying to help you. So yes, most guys are probably guessing at the problems with your business, but they're doing it from the very educated point of view of running their/our businesses, which we actually have experience in. So the opinions you're getting are way more informed than yours are simply due to experience from being in the industry for (cumulatively) 100's of years.


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## FredG

Snowmanbob said:


> Dude i know how to purchase a business. how business purchase works.
> 
> Although dont make stuff up now. No one ever mentioned about P&L and tax returns before Snow Tracker did. and for you to mention "over and over" .. in that case, please point out 5 times this stuff was mentioned in earlier posts, else we will know you just here create a mess.
> 
> Please refrain frm commenting unless you have something tangible to add to the post.


Ya okay, You must be a liberal arts major, We all know I'm here to make a mess? You and who else???? What a matter the link I left you not good enough?? You made the mess and you were warned. Furthermore if anybody understood why you are here you wouldn't be in the predicament you are now. For the record you don't know what a HOA is?? You serious LMAO.


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## Snowmanbob

JustJeff said:


> Yes Bob, most guys (if any) on here don't run A. an operation of that size (by number of customers, not revenue), and B. an operation with that niche of doing strictly residential, and C, an operation that probably uses pretty much strictly tractors to do the job. That is a very niche market, more so because of the sheer size of it. There are probably less than 5 companies in this country that run an operation like that. But even though we don't know THAT specific type of operation, we know our operations, and the problems/challenges that they pose to us, on a much smaller scale. I know the headaches I deal with, with just my tiny 3 truck operation. And that alone lets me know that I have no desire to be in the whirlwind of a business that you're talking about. But most guys are still trying to help you. So yes, most guys are probably guessing at the problems with your business, but they're doing it from the very educated point of view of running their/our businesses, which we actually have experience in. So the opinions you're getting are way more informed than yours are simply due to experience from being in the industry for (cumulatively) 100's of years.


I am very appreciate of good opinions that have numbers and declare the assumptions made, or make a tangible claim like watch out equipment etc.

I am just tired of vague mumbo jumbo like "it is bigger than you think... its smaller than you think, it more difficult than you think etc. you dont know what you are doing. if you dont know this... then you cant even do that blh blah". That kind of subjective stuff doesnt push a conversation ahead.

As I mentioned in this post, I am not looking for help with the business I am thinking of purchasing, we have addresses the general stuff in the earlier post. In this post, I am just conducting a mental exercise as to how one would approach servicing 3000 houses in a 100 sq mile radius and if someone can contribute they should, else refrain from making fluff comments that are in context with the post.


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## JustJeff

Snowmanbob said:


> I am just tired of vague mumbo jumbo like "it is bigger than you think... its smaller than you think, it more difficult than you think etc. you dont know what you are doing.


You might be tired of it, but they are right.


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## Snowmanbob

FredG said:


> Ya okay, You must be a liberal arts major, We all know I'm here to make a mess? You and who else???? What a matter the link I left you not good enough?? You made the mess and you were warned. Furthermore if anybody understood why you are here you wouldn't be in the predicament you are now. For the record you don't know what a HOA is?? You serious LMAO.


Looks like I caught you lying and now you are agitated.

You had mentioned that others have told me "over and over again" about P& L & tax returns before Snow tracker did. Why dont post link of 5 times some one had mentioned about P & L & tax returns "Over and Over again", to prove that you are lying.

If you lie about such trivial stuff, wonder what other stuff you making up.

I should say I was warned via private message about people inflating their skills.


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## Snowmanbob

JustJeff said:


> You might be tired of it, but they are right.


But I just need to move the conversation ahead, instead of regurgitating the same things that have already been established, about the industry being more difficult than I think it is, or lesser money than I think it is... etc

Also I dont think anything that difficult. Like I mentioned before, smart and hard working people can figure anything out.


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## JustJeff

Move the conversation forward HOW??? With what everybody is telling you, and you not wanting to hear it, exactly how do you want the discussion to move forward, and pertaining to what?


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## Mark Oomkes

Snowmanbob said:


> As I mentioned in this post, I am not looking for help with the business I am thinking of purchasing, we have addresses the general stuff in the earlier post. In this post, I am just conducting a mental exercise as to _*how one would approach servicing 3000 houses in a 100 sq mile radius*_ and if someone can contribute they should, else refrain from making fluff comments that are in context with the post.


I'm oot...


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## Mike_PS

Alright, those that are done with the conversation, please move on...no need to keep posting if you feel you can't get your points across or he doesn't want to hear them

either way, the discussion can move forward so I don't have to close it


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## Snowmanbob

JustJeff said:


> Move the conversation forward HOW??? With what everybody is telling you, and you not wanting to hear it, exactly how do you want the discussion to move forward, and pertaining to what?


This post is about how would someone or YOU manage an operation of this scale. that is all.

I am not asking for input on if I should buy a particular business, or if it is lucrative or easy to run, or anything like that. We already established all those general answers in the earlier thread.

For example on great answers to this post, check out snow tracker and johnnie's answer. They explain their point of view with numbers and assumptions, clarify any discounts to make and then leave it to me what I want to make out of it.

its clean and simple.

Another example: when I asked snow tracker what was HOA? He replied what it meant. But some people here would have gone "you dont know what HOA is? You dont even know that, and you expect to be in this business... blah blah blah" they will write a lot of words, but they still would have not answer what HOA meant. Which is what is tiring.


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## JustJeff

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm oot...


See that Bob? The person that just told you that he's out is one of the people that could have helped you most, as he does this specific type of snow removal. But he got tired of your attitude (I'm guessing, don't want to put words in his mouth). I'm out as well.


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## Snowmanbob

JustJeff said:


> See that Bob? The person that just told you that he's out is one of the people that could have helped you most, as he does this specific type of snow removal. But he got tired of your attitude (I'm guessing, don't want to put words in his mouth). I'm out as well.


Cool.

Thank you for everything you have shared. But our interaction has peaked and its best to move on.

Have a good one.


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## John_DeereGreen

FredG said:


> Ya okay, You must be a liberal arts major, We all know I'm here to make a mess? You and who else???? What a matter the link I left you not good enough?? You made the mess and you were warned. Furthermore if anybody understood why you are here you wouldn't be in the predicament you are now. For the record you don't know what a HOA is?? You serious LMAO.


Fred...back off with the rest of us..

It's not worth the ban hammer.


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## Snowmanbob

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm oot...


messed up my metrics. 20 sq miles.

thank you for contribution. Our interaction did peak. It is time to move on. cheers. have a good one.


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## Mark Oomkes

Snowmanbob said:


> messed up my metrics. 20 sq miles.
> 
> thank you for contribution. Our interaction did peak. It is time to move on. cheers. have a good one.


I'll keep an eye on it (just one though...right @Philbilly2 ) and see what develops. Maybe I'll jump back in.


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## Snowmanbob

Defcon 5 said:


> First off...Anyone that answers with a "Dude" is either a punk kid or a moron...


I dont know whats more moronic, a person extrapolating so much from a mere word, or the fact that feel compelled to waste time to write about it.


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## Mike_PS

Not sure what some can't understand, but move on...no need to post just to take shots at someone or to degrade him over and over 

and once again, I'm NOT asking


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## Mike_PS

Snowmanbob said:


> I dont know whats more moronic, a person extrapolating so much from a mere word, or the fact that feel compelled to waste time to write about it.


Hey DUDE, that includes you as well...so. stop trying to be cool and all hard, got it?


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## m_ice

I would do it like the link from the article (actually was interesting) their model seems to work.
26 tractor with 92" inverted blowers
Also, they diversified into commercial so there 3000+ driveways were supplimented and eggs weren't all in 1 basket.

And if what ifs counted I would sit in my climate controlled office inside a casino with some blow and hookers watching it from multiple weather cams and satellites meanwhile sitting back raking in the money then doubling it all down on red.


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## Defcon 5

Snowmanbob said:


> I dont know whats more moronic, a person extrapolating so much from a mere word, or the fact that feel compelled to waste time to write about it.


You mean like what you have just done.....It seems you have done nothing but irritate the people you were asking for help from..Judging by the little information I have...You will be a huge failure...Good Luck Dude


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## Mike_PS

that's a wrap folks...seriously, some of you need to check yourself before posting some things 

thanks


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