# Looking for a new product to use...



## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Hello,

Over the past winters we have used a flake product, and I do not believe it to be as effective as we would like. It has been used primarily since we have found it does not track onto the ferry or into the waiting areas as bad as other products have. The product not working so well has led to us using much more product than we want to be using, and more than should be needed.

At a previous company I worked for we used a product called Fire Crystal and it worked amazing. I have looked into getting it, but the company does not ship, which would be an issue for us. I am looking to see if anyone knows of any good products that are not prone to tracking into buildings and are available to be shipped to the Cape Cod area.

Thank you!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Looking for a new product to use....for what????


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

Dust control


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

LOL. I immediately pictured Dow flake dust control, not sure it'll work on fairy dust...


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

what about going with a liquid like bare ground and light application of pellets


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

I have a non corrosive liquid de icer that's pretty cheap shoot me a msge


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Looking for a new product to use....for what????


It needs to be able to remove bad customer attitudes, provide happiness, and hopefully as a side effect melts some ice


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Broncslefty7 said:


> I have a non corrosive liquid de icer that's pretty cheap shoot me a msge


Currently don't have liquid capabilities, although I will keep that in mind as the year progresses we may look into liquids more. How does it do on aluminum?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

jhall22guitar said:


> It needs to be able to remove bad customer attitudes, provide happiness, and hopefully as a side effect melts some ice


So your looking for a homely hooker?


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Exactly what I'm looking for Forgot how careful to be with wording here some days


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

jhall22guitar said:


> Exactly what I'm looking for Forgot how careful to be with wording here some days


Things don't get to far, Mr Delete is always lurking around.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Randall Ave said:


> Things don't get to far, Mr Delete is always lurking around.


It seems not much has changed then


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

The winter did have its moments.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jhall22guitar said:


> It needs to be able to remove bad customer attitudes, provide happiness, and hopefully as a side effect melts some ice


Sidewalks?

Parking lot?

Ramps?

Breakwaters?

Skywalks?

What have you been using other than "flake"? Frosted Flakes? Calcium? Chloride? Magnesium? Sodium?

I wasn't kidding, you've provided basically zero information.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Sidewalks?
> 
> Parking lot?
> 
> ...


Woodent SIMA be the place to go to find oot the best product......

BTW when has lack of info ever held ewe back from giving an opinion...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Eye just did.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Tell them you would be happy to bust out all their concrete and install heated concrete for them this summer. Thumbs Up


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

chapin sprayer is all you need, just spray 20 ft in front of the doors


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm back in MA so no dust. 

And you're correct, i did have close to zero info. My bad. 

Most of the surface area being treated is asphalt, in addition to a small area of concrete and stone patio. Due to the loading structure being aluminum we are trying to use something that won't cause any issues with that or on the boats (carpet or with the aluminum structure). Asphalt area is about 5000sq ft so if the product is good for a truck bed salter or a walk behind one that would be good also. 

I believe the product is a mag chloride currently, flake, and we have used pellets but we weren't a fan of that at all.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> Tell them you would be happy to bust out all their concrete and install heated concrete for them this summer. Thumbs Up


Funny you mention that, we are planning to pave the area again in a year or two and I believe we have a price in also heating it all, although it will never happen sadly.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Call Site One (JDL) in your area https://www.siteone.com/home/locations.aspx
I get my bagged walk deicer from my local branch and they should have some options.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

jhall22guitar said:


> Funny you mention that, we are planning to pave the area again in a year or two and I believe we have a price in also heating it all, although it will never happen sadly.


It was more of a joke. I have customers ask me to put heated concrete in all the time. I always try to talk them out of it. Heating an interior slab that is pinned to footers below frost line is one thing, and it's the cats meow. But, heating exterior concrete usually ends up bad. It costs A LOT, and always goes bad. If they do want it, I make them sign a warranty waiver. I will not warranty exterior heated concrete. Concrete moves, and when it does it breaks the electrical mat, or busts/kinks the water lines, depending on what style you have. It's awesome while it works, but once it goes out the only way to fix it is to bust out the concrete and start over.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ktfbgb said:


> It was more of a joke. I have customers ask me to put heated concrete in all the time. I always try to talk them out of it. Heating an interior slab that is pinned to footers below frost line is one thing, and it's the cats meow. But, heating exterior concrete usually ends up bad. It costs A LOT, and always goes bad. If they do want it, I make them sign a warranty waiver. I will not warranty exterior heated concrete. Concrete moves, and when it does it breaks the electrical mat, or busts/kinks the water lines, depending on what style you have. It's awesome while it works, but once it goes out the only way to fix it is to bust out the concrete and start over.


I tend to disagree......we have a few accounts with heated walks. Most are well over 15 years old and work great.

I know of at least a few heated driveways aroond town as well.

The only issues I have seen is someone not turning them on in the fall. None have gone bad.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I tend to disagree......we have a few accounts with heated walks. Most are well over 15 years old and work great.
> 
> I know of at least a few heated driveways aroond town as well.
> 
> The only issues I have seen is someone not turning them on in the fall. None have gone bad.


It could be my area too. We have a lot of heaving and ground movement between seasons. it can be done, but most people don't want to pay for footers for a driveway/sidewalk, or lime base stabilization etc. I just know that I've seen a lot of failed systems here, and my electrician and plumber also refuse to warranty their work on any exterior heated concrete. I will say that most systems I've seen fail have been electric matt systems. PEX will flex a lot more than a mat.

I'm thinking that places where temps are more stable with gradual increases decreases in temps probably fare better. Here it is normal to swing 50-60 degrees every day. Summer it will be 95 during the day and 55 at night, winter it can be 60 during the day and hit 0 that night.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm far from an expert, but these walks do not have footers extending below the frost line. All concrete needs a proper base, that is what reduces movement.

And with heated walks, movement is reduced because the temperature is more constant.

I forgot aboot these examples, I was reminded by someone very knowledgeable in concrete.

http://www.cityofholland.com/streets/snowmelt

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2016/02/why_holland_spends_millions_to.html

http://michiganradio.org/post/hollands-heated-sidewalks-streets-were-gamble-seems-have-paid










Downtown East Grand Rapids has a snowmelt system for their walks only. Not sure how long it's been in place, but quite awhile.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

http://plasticpipe.org/pdf/bcd-sun-valley-case-history.pdf

http://www.uponor-usa.com/~/media/F...CS_SnMlt_BeaverCreekSki_05 06.aspx?sc_lang=en


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

think i would set the tubes under the concrete so nothing binds them? or wont it work?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I like those case studies. I may be forming my opinions on dated material. Obviously there needs to be a good base. But I wonder what kind of base engineering had to be done to ensure it was successful. 

Around here for landscape concrete like driveways and walks a typical base is 2-4 inches of compacted cinder sand on top of compacted soil. Obviously drainage is addressed but that cinder base is pretty much all that's done.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

leolkfrm said:


> think i would set the tubes under the concrete so nothing binds them? or wont it work?


It's supposed to be encased in the concrete. Otherwise most the heat is going straight to the ground. Insulation would help with that though.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

The main and pretty much only reason you don't see more heated walks and roads is its cost prohibitive....


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

BUFF said:


> Call Site One (JDL) in your area https://www.siteone.com/home/locations.aspx
> I get my bagged walk deicer from my local branch and they should have some options.


Awesome thank you. I'm not sure why they didn't come up in my search. The only stuff I was able to get to pop up was lowes and Home Depot along with some de-icer called Island Heat.



Mark Oomkes said:


> I tend to disagree......we have a few accounts with heated walks. Most are well over 15 years old and work great.
> 
> I know of at least a few heated driveways aroond town as well.
> 
> The only issues I have seen is someone not turning them on in the fall. None have gone bad.


I worked for a company that serviced a roofing manufacturer whose front entrance walls were heated. The winter got so bad we saw one of their maintenance guys taking snowbanks and dumping it on the heated walkway so it would slowly melt. We thought it was crazy but it worked.


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