# getting more into ice control, what would you get?



## Kc762 (Dec 25, 2019)

so we are working on getting into more ice control, i have been looking at vbox spreaders. in the long run would i be better off just getting a liquid deicer set up? it seems that is what most people are making the switch too anyways.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Vbox all day, every day.


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## Kc762 (Dec 25, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Vbox all day, every day.


have you used both? why the vbox?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

If your just getting started, vbox.
Liquid requires alot of extra equipment and time


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I have 4 boxes and 1 1500 gallon sprayer. 

Too many limitations with liquids. Too much of a learning curve, too much manpower for spraying vs applying granular.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Just don’t get a snow ex

you know why they call them snow ex right?

because it’s like an ex wife.... it’s what you wasted your money on before you realized you made a mistake.

someone I know has good luck with salt dog , I thought they were second rate stuff , but I guess he gets good results from them.

I won’t go into our snow ex headaches 
I just wouldn’t do it again
Unless you like chasing carrots


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

The logistics with brine only is ridiculous


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mudly said:


> The logistics with brine only is ridiculous


We do a lot (mostly brine) it is do able 
There are benefits on certain circumstances ... but as previously mentioned the learning curve is tremendous


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

I might disagree on the learning curve. Idk what controllers some of you use but it made us. Logistically refilling in the middle of a storm... many hurdles. Storing it and mixing it during off time... a huge operation to be done efficiently. That’s my main hurdle, logistics


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mudly said:


> I might disagree on the learning curve. Idk what controllers some of you use but it made us. Logistically refilling in the middle of a storm... many hurdles. Storing it and mixing it during off time... a huge operation to be done efficiently. That's my main hurdle, logistics


We make our own 
We use a snow ex brine pro 2000
Trust me 
Learning curve 
Even the guys who make the stuff don't know much

How much to put down at what temp, what kind of precipitation, calculating dilution in relation to moisture on the ground, getting the plow operators to understand they need to get the parking lot down as much as possible and big just "plow the loose stuff off"
Learning curve

percent/ratio of mixture of calcium or other "hot" product under what conditions 
Learning curve

when we first started out we were mixing brine in a plastic tub like you can see if you google brine making on you tube...
Learning curve

I went to a class on liquids this fall hoping to find out more information , something I didn't know or maybe that "eureka" moment ... turns out I knew more than the teacher and this was more of a "political" push to try to get people to use liquids at all than actual good information on it.
Learning curve 
8 out of 10 guys in our state that started using liquids gave up
I don't think they're dumb or lazy (well some maybe) 
It's just that vs using a granular spreader (and possibly pre wet with liquid calcium) is so much easier, covers so much more are so much faster and theres a much wider margin for error when applying (hard to apply too little actually) and if your guys don't get off as much on the parking lot as they should you're still good ...
Just a lot less thinking going into granular

I will say tho, when it gets down to stupid cold temps liquids work much better than granular apps.

but the colder it gets
The higher the learning curve.
We seemed to be only ones that could do it -9
But at 19? the guys using granular will kick our tail


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Have any of you that use liquids ever created more ice than you've melted? 

Even using the proper mix and proper application rates, it can happen.

Have any of you created a slick mess if applying when too warm and dewpoints are close to ambient air temp? 

Simple answer on logistics: one truckload of salt covers far more ground than one truckload of liquids. 

They both have their place, no doubt. You just have far more to learn with liquids.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Our County Roads Dept uses liquids only as a pretreat for approaching events. Once the event hits they switch over to prewet granular, they by far have surpassed the townships that have only started dabbling back and forth between granular salt and pickled sand. The budget layouts and employee turnover of course are different, but the results speak for themselves.
The pretreat with liquids does help bide time, and hold off the formation of ice and saves material on that one treatment. Safer roads is the goal and with tax dollars it is probably a little easier to survive the learning curve than it is for a company that has to make its living slashing prices and dealing with ever declining snow budgets.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Mr.Markus said:


> Our County Roads Dept uses liquids only as a pretreat for approaching events. Once the event hits they switch over to prewet granular, they by far have surpassed the townships that have only started dabbling back and forth between granular salt and pickled sand. The budget layouts and employee turnover of course are different, but the results speak for themselves.
> The pretreat with liquids does help bide time, and hold off the formation of ice and saves material on that one treatment. Safer roads is the goal and with tax dollars it is probably a little easier to survive the learning curve than it is for a company that has to make its living slashing prices and dealing with ever declining snow budgets.


This is how I do it. The name of my game is keep it wet but not slushy during storms. The only time I've ever taken the deicer out post storm is for service calls or sub work to burn solid ice. It takes like 3 hrs round trip to refill so I personally wouldn't spray as it falls, keep it on reserve if a box goes down ect.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Have any of you that use liquids ever created more ice than you've melted?
> 
> Even using the proper mix and proper application rates, it can happen.
> 
> ...


Yes

we have created more ice

before we made our own (major contributing factor to making that decision)
We had a tanker with pre made brine from a supplier

the supplier mixed it wrong (26% salinity) and the freeze curve for too salty of a brine is way worse than not salty enough...

literally made a 3 acre skating rink

next morning we are there on the owners desk with beakers like it's chemistry class staring at the liquid waiting for it to get warm enough to test (didn't know at the time there was a chart to off set liquid temp)

all this stuff has been learned past in the last several years
With the exception of the guys at VSI there really isn't anyone in the US or Canada that had these answers.
They've now been collected over time by learning and taking pieces of knowledge from other people.
I'm fairly confident we are one of the few that have all the compiled information on liquids when it comes to ice control.

it would have been much simpler to call someone and ask, but literally everyone , including the guys selling product and application equipment , didn't know.

there is a few helpful websites out there for different state DOTs (Ohio shockingly was one) that weird little pieces to the puzzle but not all of them.

in the end 
You can take 3.5 tons of salt (especially if pre wet) and cover (up to, depending on conditions) 14 acres of parking lot 
Where as 3.5 tons of brine which is approx 650 gallons 
Will (maybe ) get you 6 acres.

the trouble with the whole brine push is the idiotic American tendency to think "more is better"
Which has new guys applying salt and don't stop until you can see black parking lot (by the time you've done that you've put on way too much) and then you've got this big push "but on paper liquids are so much better and use so much less salt; hug trees; love fish ... blah blah ; drinking water"
That's great, but then no one wants to hug trees when it comes down to the fact they want to get out of their car and not fall down... so...

Learn the basics first
Use granular first


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## abbe (Sep 8, 2009)

Buy yourself a modern electric spreader like a polyester/ tornado with dual electric motors. Stay away from salt doggs and snow ex. and worry about adding brine once you have a strong customer base and have mastered making a buck with bulk treated salt.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I did not see quick cubes as an option.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

1olddogtwo said:


> I did not see quick cubes as an option.


Omg... Genius! I've already filed the patent and approached Boss about it... Cashin checks...


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Boss Brine quick cubes®©™


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Brine belongs in the kitchen ! With the women -"Brining is the process of submerging a cut of meat in a brine solution, which is simply salt dissolved in water. The meat absorbs extra liquid and salt, resulting in a juicier and more flavorful final dish. This technique is particularly great for lean cuts of meat that tend to dry out during cooking!" 
And no ,my wife doesn't read these posts.I hope:hammerhead:


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

tpendagast said:


> Yes
> 
> we have created more ice
> 
> ...


Very good advice. Quick question... how many tons of salt did it take to create the 3.5 tons (650 gallons) of brine?


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

tpendagast said:


> Yes
> 
> we have created more ice
> 
> ...


As well, a thing I never understood about the whole 'liquids being better for the environment' arguement is that you are taking clean (sometimes already treated by the treatment facilities) water and groundwater out of the system and willingly contaminating it to the tune of hundreds of gallons at a time vs granular where the brine created is from the salt reacting with snow. Realistically, if every company were using only brine, the infrastructure might not be able to support it.


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## gcbailey (Jan 26, 2014)

20191216_093330




__
gcbailey


__
Dec 17, 2019








Why use one when you can use both? Granted it's not a vbox but still...


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> As well, a thing I never understood about the whole 'liquids being better for the environment' arguement is that you are taking clean (sometimes already treated by the treatment facilities) water and groundwater out of the system and willingly contaminating it to the tune of hundreds of gallons at a time vs granular where the brine created is from the salt reacting with snow. Realistically, if every company were using only brine, the infrastructure might not be able to support it.


You're using a whole lot less salt (23.3%) with liquids vs solids

the solids are much more often over applied which runs off into the storm water system or nearby ground water

don't forget the liquids dilute with precipitation too

and where does groundwater/water tanks come from in the first place?

precipitation


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

tpendagast said:


> You're using a whole lot less salt (23.3%) with liquids vs solids
> 
> the solids are much more often over applied which runs off into the storm water system or nearby ground water
> 
> ...





tpendagast said:


> You're using a whole lot less salt (23.3%) with liquids vs solids
> 
> the solids are much more often over applied which runs off into the storm water system or nearby ground water
> 
> ...


I completely understand from the amount of salt being used arguement... you're never going to use as much salt with liquids as you do with solids.
My concern is with the infrastructure not being able to handle the water demand. Now, if you're getting most of the water you are using for your liquid applications from precipitation holding tanks from your facility then it's a moot point. And that would be much better on the environment than over applying solids.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

tpendagast said:


> You're using a whole lot less salt (23.3%) with liquids vs solids


No, you're not.

You need X amount of salt to melt (or reduce freezing temp of water) ice or snow.

You need the same amount of salt to melt it whether it be applied in a liquid form or solid. Liquid form just speeds up the process because it doesn't have to change from a solid to a liquid.

This is why a truck carry 1,500 gallons of salt brine will not cover as much ground with the same results as that same truck carrying 1,500# of granular salt. Because the truck carrying 1,500 gallons of salt brine only has 350# of salt on board, the rest is water.

This is and always has been the issue with the claims of 30 or 40 or 50 GPLM providing the same results as say 800# per acre.

You are correct when you state it is easier to overapply with granular because you don't see the results as quickly.

Conversely, that granular application will "hold" longer because it is not already partially diluted. It has to reach that 23.3% solution and melts ice\snow while doing so.



tpendagast said:


> the solids are much more often over applied which runs off into the storm water system or nearby ground water


Even when diluted, salt brine will run off into the storm water system or nearby groundwater. The only difference is the state in which it was applied.

This is just another fallacy the liquids bandwagon puts forth. Just like it takes less salt in a liquid form to melt snow\ice. It doesn't, salt is salt and works the same way every time. It can't melt ice with a lesser amount because it's applied in a liquid vs solid state. It just isn't possible chemically.

So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but you are parroting the same misinformation the all liquids bandwagon puts forth. Maybe you just don't know different, but facts are facts.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> No, you're not.
> 
> You need X amount of salt to melt (or reduce freezing temp of water) ice or snow.
> 
> ...


If anyone disagrees with this. You are a know it all.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> No, you're not.
> 
> You need X amount of salt to melt (or reduce freezing temp of water) ice or snow.
> 
> ...


Asking because I don't know ... the brine that results after you apply granular to ice is a 23.3% solution? Is that why this number is used when making liquid salt brine?
For example, if you put down too much granular the resulting brine won't be say 50%? It will stay on the lot until 23.3% is achieved?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Asking because I don't know ... the brine that results after you apply granular to ice is a 23.3% solution? Is that why this number is used when making liquid salt brine?
> For example, if you put down too much granular the resulting brine won't be say 50%? It will stay on the lot until 23.3% is achieved?


Well, it starts at 0% dilution and works it's way up to 100% dilution if the snow or freezing rain keeps falling. The goal is to hit 23.3% every time which is just not possible. How much snow\ice is present; pavement temps; moisture content of the snow; is it still snowing or freezing rain falling, etc.

This is why we tend to overapply, just to make sure our bases are covered.

The statement that a white parking lot after a snow event (from salt) means salt was overapplied is absolutely correct. But since we aren't melting snow\ice in a laboratory under controlled conditions, we aren't going to do it perfectly every time.

The other reason we tend to overapply is no one wants to make a second round through. There is some validity to this when you consider additional labor, fuel, wear and tear on equipment and even roads.

We strive to apply just enough to melt what is left after plowing, has fallen and we haven't plowed and is continuing to fall, it doesn't always happen.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Well, it starts at 0% dilution and works it's way up to 100% dilution if the snow or freezing rain keeps falling. The goal is to hit 23.3% every time which is just not possible. How much snow\ice is present; pavement temps; moisture content of the snow; is it still snowing or freezing rain falling, etc.
> 
> This is why we tend to overapply, just to make sure our bases are covered.
> 
> ...


Understood. Thank you.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Is that why this number is used when making liquid salt brine?


Trying to remember the details, but a higher dilution rate will result in ice.

A lower dilution rate with colder temps can also create ice.

23.3% is the optimum dilution rate for sodium chloride.

32% is optimum for calcium chloride.



Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> For example, if you put down too much granular the resulting brine won't be say 50%?


If you put too much brine down, the dilution would be less than 23.3%, not more. 50% is on it's way to being too diluted to be effective. Or already passed it.



Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> It will stay on the lot until 23.3% is achieved?


23.3% is the dilution at which salt will melt the most ice...depending on pavement temps.

If you have salt residue on the pavement after it dries, your dilution rate was less than 23.3%. If there isn't any salt residue left, you applied enough assuming there wasn't any ice left. Or the remaining snow\freezing rain diluted it.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Trying to remember the details, but a higher dilution rate will result in ice.
> 
> A lower dilution rate with colder temps can also create ice.
> 
> ...


Ah, thinking about it from the wrong side. Applying too much salt results in a solution that is less than ideal (<23.3%) or basically you don't have enough snow/ice to achieve 23.3% or less. Hence, you have salt residue left over. I think.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

So would that residual assist in melting if there was another snowfall in a day of two?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Brad3403 said:


> So would that residual assist in melting if there was another snowfall in a day of two?


Yes...or if it is dry and below freezing....


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Brad3403 said:


> So would that residual assist in melting if there was another snowfall in a day of two?


Very very little.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

Mudly said:


> Very very little.


Is that not the same as "pre-treating"? Is Pre-treating a waste of time?


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## gcbailey (Jan 26, 2014)

Brad3403 said:


> Is that not the same as "pre-treating"? Is Pre-treating a waste of time?


Pre-treating with brine has been a huge time saver for us when the weather is just calling for a couple inches.

This is only our second season with brine but it does have its positives and I believe more so on the pre-treat side than regular rock salt. We've been using brine as the pre and rock salt post-treat.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Pretreating is most certainly not a waste of time.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Pretreating is most certainly not a waste of time.


And with that pre wetting should also be discussed in this thread as a time saver.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Pretreating is most certainly not a waste of time.





Mr.Markus said:


> And with that pre wetting should also be discussed in this thread as a time saver.


Thanks for the info!!!


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## gcbailey (Jan 26, 2014)

One thing with pre-treating is watching how your weather is coming in. In my area we get a lot of rain->sleet->snow events and if it starts as rain you're going to waste your brine depending on the switchover time.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm just starting to experiment with liquids. I've sprayed the salt brine mixed with about 15% of Tiger Calciums "Road Guard", a couple times on some of our lots. I didn't notice much of a difference.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

gcbailey said:


> One thing with pre-treating is watching how your weather is coming in. In my area we get a lot of rain->sleet->snow events and if it starts as rain you're going to waste your brine depending on the switchover time.


That's not usually a concern in my area. Our average snow fall amount is 1"-3" per event.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

If I said it once I’ve said it a million times. Pretreating is the most efficient way to battle ice. When you say residual I imply a white haze on the lot not unmolested granulars. So very very little help from residual salt.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Mr.Markus said:


> And with that pre wetting should also be discussed in this thread as a time saver.


That's a whole other thread no?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mudly said:


> If I said it once I've said it a million times. Pretreating is the most efficient way to battle ice. When you say residual I imply a white haze on the lot not unmolested granulars. So very very little help from residual salt.


Pre treating where?

pre treating the lot?
The pile of salt? 
Or at the spinner?


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Pre treating where?
> 
> pre treating the lot?
> The pile of salt?
> Or at the spinner?


The lot. I don't think we a talking about anything other then that. Saying pretreating at the spinner Ect may raise some eyebrows


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## abbe (Sep 8, 2009)

I pretreat with a treated bulk, as long as the event isn’t starting as pure rain. If it is, then we usually hold our pretreat time until we just start to see a Change over. Then we usually hammer. 

Our customer base is extremely demanding in terms of time frame and quality of service. Pretreating helps us meet their demands while insuring we don’t get a hard pack buildup in drive lanes, especially in lots without dedicated machines. 

This year we had a horrendous freezing rain event already that resulted in probably a half inch of icing on everything. I can tell you for a fact I was the poster child of over applicating during that event. Not sure if spraying a liquid on top would have helped or if I should have been running a sand mixed in for an abrasive ( which we haven’t in probably 7 years). But my treated bulk was just burning a holes straight through the ice, and then the hole would glaze back over. I would never get to the optimal dilution level, allowing the product to do its job. 

This business is such a play it by feel thing, customers can get frustrated, employees annoyed, but at the end of the day, there is no replacement for experience when it comes to forecasting and reacting to these events.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

IME, liquids at any point during a freezing rain event are a waste of time, money and material. 

I love it when you can see a granule of salt encased in ice.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> No, you're not.
> 
> You need X amount of salt to melt (or reduce freezing temp of water) ice or snow.
> 
> ...


You've not learned to use it

let me know when you want to learn it 
Until then 
Enjoy using more salt per acre every season than I do


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

abbe said:


> I pretreat with a treated bulk, as long as the event isn't starting as pure rain. If it is, then we usually hold our pretreat time until we just start to see a Change over. Then we usually hammer.
> 
> Our customer base is extremely demanding in terms of time frame and quality of service. Pretreating helps us meet their demands while insuring we don't get a hard pack buildup in drive lanes, especially in lots without dedicated machines.
> 
> ...


"ideally" a pre application of liquid calcium product with an additive (like beet juice to make it a little sticky) might have helped ...
But with on going precipitation there's no "exact answer"
This is like trying to chase snow flakes with your plow and someone saying "why are you letting snow collect on the parking lot"

FWIW even the abrasives get covered :encapsulated in freezing rain when it keeps coming down

you can change the freezing point of your surface , but not the temp of what's collecting to it's self on top of it.

liquid calcium (sometimes) prevents the bond to pavement 
Letting you scrape it off ...
But if it's still coming down, all you've done is open the bare pavement to more collection of precipitation


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

tpendagast said:


> You've not learned to use it
> 
> let me know when you want to learn it
> Until then
> Enjoy using more salt per acre every season than I do


Lol...SKWBE


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