# Truck alterations or replace?



## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

So I've been doing some thinking the last few days and I've come to a point where I'm looking for others thoughts and ideas. 

My current situation is that my truck does everything I need it to, but I know there is better out there. Mostly when it comes to towing. I pull a 28' deck over gooseneck and while my truck does fine with my summer set of wheels and tires (295/70/17 toyo mt's on 17x9 wheels) it struggles a bit more with stability with my winter set (235/85/16 toyo mt's on 16x6.5 wheels). It's never gotten to the point where I feel unsafe or that I can't handle the truck and trailer but I'd like to try and adjust my setup before there is a problem. Both sets of tires are load range E and the problem just comes from the winter tires being so narrow. My summer set is wider with a higher weight rating so they are more stable but it's still a single wheel truck. 

So here is where I've been doing some thinking and I've come to 2 ideas: Swap my truck for a dually in about the same configuration or convert my truck to a dually. 
My plan to alter my truck would be to use a GM Cab and Chassis axle, run the front dually adapters, and an aluminum flatbed on my truck. I'm not using aftermarket adapters to allow me to run duals on the factory srw axle, I'm sure it would work no problem but I'd hate to have one fail with a lot of weight behind me and suddenly be missing 2 tires. Not to mention a lawsuit would not go well in the event of an accident if it was found that I was using aftermarket parts to make my truck something it was never supposed to be. Where as with all GM parts things should go a lot better and have factory ratings to back them up.

The other thought is pull what I want off my truck and sell it and replace it with almost the same truck, but one that's a dually from the factory. Sounds simple but I don't want a normal dually bed (pita to do anything with the fragile dually flares) and most I find are loaded crew cabs and I'm fine with an extended cab and the cloth interior. The major thing I don't want to do is take everything off my current truck that has made it "mine" and have to put it all back on another truck. 

My current truck setup:
2006 Chevy 2500HD 4x4. Ext Cab, Long Bed. 117k on it.
Duramax/Allison.
Efi Live, Airdog 165, 4" Exhaust, BD FullBore Drivers Side Manifold. Transgo Jr Shift Kit. Merchant Auto Tcase Brace
4-6" Cognito lift, Steering braces, HD tie rods, etc.
Ride Rite 5k bags with onboard compressor.
B&W Gooseneck, Titan 2.5" Class 5 receiver, Tekonsha Prodigy Brake Controller.
Boss Plow Setup, Snow Ex spreader. Lots of warning lights and a lot of wiring.
In bed transfer tank/12v pump. Toolbox, backrack, light bar, etc

So as you would imagine switching all of that stuff over to another truck would be quite a project and take a considerable amount of time. It's taken me about 2.5 years to get this truck setup how I want and I'd figure it would take better then a week to strip this one down and transfer it all over to another truck if there was no delays or distractions and probably 2 people working on it.

Thoughts, Ideas, Suggestions? And getting a smaller trailer isn't going to happen, if anything the next one will be a bit longer.


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

Guess you need to price out what it would cost to convert your truck. Weigh out the pros and cons of both


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Mark13;1563418 said:


> My plan to alter my truck would be to use a GM Cab and Chassis axle


With the difference in frame width, would you need a dually pickup axle instead of the Cab and Chassis axle?

Anyway it sounds like you're happy with 295/70-17 singles. Why not get a similar size in winter tires? If you get winter-rated tires, maybe studded, they'll beat your summer tires in snow/for plowing, and at 295mm width they'll still cut through snow better than duals will.

What pressure are you running in each set of tires? You'll need a lot more pressure in the 235/85-16's than you would in the 295/70-17's for the same load capacity and stability. A standardized load-inflation chart shows the following data...

295/70-17 @ 35psi: 2270lbs
235/85-16 @ 35psi: 1700lbs

295/70-17 @ 50psi: 2830lbs
235/85-16 @ 50psi: 2205lbs

295/70-17 @ 80psi: 3970lbs
235/85-16 @ 80psi: 3042lbs

You may be severely overloading the smaller tires if you're running the same pressure in both sets.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Life's short.. buy a new cab and chasis/ pickbox delete and build your dream truck. They get old fast anyway, plus the new gm boxed frame at the front is rated at 1200lbs more than your current 06.
Sooner or later you're gonna need a new truck. I've never looked at buying new as money out the window, my trucks more than pay for themselves even if I drive them into the ground and can't get a penny for them when they're done.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

The problem with dual wheels is the same as the problem with wider wheels.

What makes the wider wheels more stable isn't the number stamped on their side, rather the actual tread width and profile ratio.

As has been suggested, sticking to your summer tire size in the winter would be a good compromise. They will definitely perform better in slick/snow than duals. You may even consider going with different tire widths front to back. Have you considered putting 235's on the front and 295's on the back? Just make sure that the actual tire diameter is the same, so the sidewall ratio should be much lower on the 295's than the 235's.

Another thing you can try is running a shorter tire in the winter. A shorter sidewall will be more stable than the taller. I tend not to like going over a sidewall ratio of .75. The smaller the sidewall ratio, and especially the shorter the overall sidewall, the more stable.


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

theholycow;1563573 said:


> With the difference in frame width, would you need a dually pickup axle instead of the Cab and Chassis axle?
> From what I've read the frame sections where the axle mounts are the same. I haven't been able to measure a c&c truck and see how it compares to mine. The frame very well could be a different width.
> 
> Anyway it sounds like you're happy with 295/70-17 singles. Why not get a similar size in winter tires? If you get winter-rated tires, maybe studded, they'll beat your summer tires in snow/for plowing, and at 295mm width they'll still cut through snow better than duals will.
> ...


I don't recall what I have in the 235's right now. In my 295's I think I had 65psi in them (wheels say don't go above 60psi) and they seemed to handle the weight ok. 



Mr.Markus;1563586 said:


> Life's short.. buy a new cab and chasis/ pickbox delete and build your dream truck. They get old fast anyway, plus the new gm boxed frame at the front is rated at 1200lbs more than your current 06.
> Sooner or later you're gonna need a new truck. I've never looked at buying new as money out the window, my trucks more than pay for themselves even if I drive them into the ground and can't get a penny for them when they're done.


I'd be afraid to see how much of a hit my bank account would take but a '13 C&C 3500 would be a pretty slick ride. The other downside to a new truck is that since our EPA doesn't like fun they have pretty much killed the aftermarket performance/tuning industry on the newer diesels. Which means it would be difficult for me to tune and delete all the emissions equipment on the trucks.



jasonv;1563647 said:


> The problem with dual wheels is the same as the problem with wider wheels.
> 
> What makes the wider wheels more stable isn't the number stamped on their side, rather the actual tread width and profile ratio.
> 
> ...


I was considering a dually partially for weight capacity as well as being more stable with a trailer. I'm going to go to a wider tire once my 235's are toast and it should help all around but weight would still be an issue at times.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Mark13;1563680 said:


> I run the narrower tires for the traction and clearance with my snowplow. I can run my 295s when my plow is on but it's pretty tight. I could probably switch to a 285 on the 16" wheels and still be ok for clearance.


285/75-16 has almost the same load-inflation chart as 295/70-17, just 100-200 pounds less. That would be a good size for your purposes.



> Also the law says I can't run studded tires so I just have to choose accordingly to get a good set of all terrains that do well in the snow too.


Ok, skip the studs, but still get winter-rated tires (snowflake mountain symbol on the sidewall).



> I don't recall what I have in the 235's right now. In my 295's I think I had 65psi in them (wheels say don't go above 60psi) and they seemed to handle the weight ok.


At 65psi, your 295/70-17 are rated for 3440 pounds. For a similar load rating and stability, 235/85-16 needs a whopping 95psi (which requires you to upgrade to load range F). I believe this is your largest issue; with such a huge difference in relative inflation you will not get the same performance, and you may even be overloading the tires entirely.


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

theholycow;1563693 said:


> 285/75-16 has almost the same load-inflation chart as 295/70-17, just 100-200 pounds less. That would be a good size for your purposes.
> 
> At 65psi, your 295/70-17 are rated for 3440 pounds. For a similar load rating and stability, 235/85-16 needs a whopping 95psi (which requires you to upgrade to load range F). I believe this is your largest issue; with such a huge difference in relative inflation you will not get the same performance, and you may even be overloading the tires entirely.


285's will also fill out my wheel wells a bit better now that I put the lift on. The 235's have served their purpose but their definitely not what I need right now. Their down to about 25% tread so it won't be to long before their worn out.

I'm no doubt over weight on the 235's, I've been over on the 295's before but they handle it a lot better and don't seem quite as questionable.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Yikes. It sounds like you sometimes run dangerously, severely overweight for the 235's. Besides the ill handling that you've noted, you're looking at the potential for explosive blowouts. Being worn to 25% they're no good for plowing anyway, might as well go ahead and get new tires now.

I imagine you're overloading the truck too. How far over your truck's GVWR, GCWR, and GAWRs are you?


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

theholycow;1563717 said:


> Yikes. It sounds like you sometimes run dangerously, severely overweight for the 235's. Besides the ill handling that you've noted, you're looking at the potential for explosive blowouts. Being worn to 25% they're no good for plowing anyway, might as well go ahead and get new tires now.
> 
> I imagine you're overloading the truck too. How far over your truck's GVWR, GCWR, and GAWRs are you?


Considering it doesn't seem to snow here anymore in anything more then 1/4" amounts I'm going to try and run these tires till their about gone. I run them mostly to keep my nice polished wheels out of the salt at this point.

As far as ratings go, I've got roughly 900lbs before I'm over my gvwr as I DD my truck. With my plow I'm over, if I fill my transfer tank I'm over, and if I hook my trailer up empty I'm over. So you can only imagine then what things look like once I'm loaded.


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## BearClaw (Jan 9, 2013)

How many miles on the truck and how much longer do you plan on keeping it?

I think in the long run you will be out money if you try to convert to a dually. You pay the money to add the setup and then when you trade it in down the road you are out or maybe worse because it wasn't stock. Or you have to spend the time and money to convert it back.

If you want to stick with this truck I would try different tire sizes that might work better in winter. 285's were mentioned above. I would stay away from this size tire on a stock wheel. Yes the ratings are higher but the tire is too wide for the wheel. When loaded heavy the wheel will foat around inside of the too large tire. If you are running a wider wheel a 285 might work well. Between the DMax and Efi live I wouldn't be concerned about tire size as long as your not getting bigger than 35s. The DMax has the torque and you can easily adjust tire size with your Efi Live.

It sounds like the for the amount of weight you are pulling a true dually really would serve you better though. The manifold and airdog and suspension stuff would be a pain to swap and I don't even think I would bother with the transgo or the exhaust just buy new. If looking for a new truck I would look for a nice LBZ. Some consider it the best Dmax engine as there is no dpf, no injector or over heating problems and has the 6 speed Ally.


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

BearClaw;1563801 said:


> How many miles on the truck and how much longer do you plan on keeping it?
> 
> I think in the long run you will be out money if you try to convert to a dually. You pay the money to add the setup and then when you trade it in down the road you are out or maybe worse because it wasn't stock. Or you have to spend the time and money to convert it back.
> 
> ...


Truck has 117k on it, when making it mine with aftermarket parts I didn't cut corners. I wanted it to last 300k no problem (rust being the only worry).

As far as converting the truck to a dually I wouldn't be paying a shop to do it so my only costs would be gathering the parts and then minimal expenses of having a few friends help when needed. It's still not going to be a $500 job obviously but without a $70/hr+ charge at a shop I don't think it would be terrible. Especially with being able to resell my srw parts.

I've debated the 285s on the 6.5" wide wheel and haven't made my mind up totally. I may try and swap to a 8-8.5" wide wheel for the 285s if I can find something that would work and be reasonably priced.

My current truck is an lbz which I was a very specific about finding, ended up taking me a year and a half to find this truck which is pretty much exactly what I wanted. When I bought the truck I planned on towing/plowing/hauling with it but just not on the scale it has gotten. There's times my trailer sits for a month or two and then there's times where it's hooked to the truck for several weeks straight.

My truck and trailer "unloaded" are 16,400lb. Trailer is 8,000lb with 1750lbs roughly on the pin when unloaded.


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## snopushin ford (Feb 20, 2010)

my question about doing a dually swap is, what would happen if you were in an acccident and somehow they found out your truck was a single rear wheel? So the ratings do not match up. Some of the loads you move almost sound like you need somthing more like a F450 or 4500. One other thing i have noticed looking at trucks all the time is that single rear wheels truck hold more value and DRW truck can be found cheaper. Anyway just some thoughts. good luck. Matt


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

snopushin ford;1563824 said:


> my question about doing a dually swap is, what would happen if you were in an acccident and somehow they found out your truck was a single rear wheel? So the ratings do not match up. Some of the loads you move almost sound like you need somthing more like a F450 or 4500. One other thing i have noticed looking at trucks all the time is that single rear wheels truck hold more value and DRW truck can be found cheaper. Anyway just some thoughts. good luck. Matt


I'm working on finding out if there is a way to have my truck re-certified if I used all GM factory parts to make it a dually.

A 450 would be nice, a 550 is probably more appropriate. But without going back to a 2000 their big $$$ unless I want an XL, 2 door, base model, etc. And if I make it my main truck I want it to be optioned similar to my current truck.


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## Holland (Aug 18, 2010)

I was gonna give you a bunch of crap mark, but i think i'll play nice this time. You'd be better off trading yours in on a dually if thats what you really want. Convert yours to a dually and your going to have a hard time unloading it when the day comes to sell it. 

Start shoppin around for duallys. Its alot easier and cheaper to just go out and buy what your after. If you give me an idea of what your after i can keep an eye out around here for ya. 

If your set on building yours, grab your parts and come on over, I wont charge more than 70/hr lol


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

Holland;1563847 said:


> I was gonna give you a bunch of crap mark, but i think i'll play nice this time. You'd be better off trading yours in on a dually if thats what you really want. Convert yours to a dually and your going to have a hard time unloading it when the day comes to sell it.
> 
> Start shoppin around for duallys. Its alot easier and cheaper to just go out and buy what your after. If you give me an idea of what your after i can keep an eye out around here for ya.
> 
> If your set on building yours, grab your parts and come on over, I wont charge more than 70/hr lol


I've been keeping my eye out some for trucks but I just spent copious amounts of money on a skid steer so I'm trying to see what my options are without my bank account being in the red.

If I do decide to swap my truck I've got a friend who's minutes away that runs a shop that specializes in trucks and weather he likes it or not he'll help me lol.

In my search though I did come across an 08 F450 ec/lb (9' flatbed) with 26k on it for low $30's. XLT, nice truck. And as a bonus it has a Gear Vendors over/under drive on it.
4.88 Ratio with the extra over drives actually would probably make it get decent mpg unloaded and then still the ability to split gears for when towing heavy. 
Throw a tune and dpf delete on it, some gauges to monitor things and I'd be set.

Only problem is that it's in AZ (which I'd prefer over Northern, IL) and my money tree is looking like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree lately.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Holland;1563847 said:


> I was gonna give you a bunch of crap mark, but i think i'll play nice this time. You'd be better off trading yours in on a dually if thats what you really want.


Same here...I keep typing up and abandoning posts. Suffice it to say, it is not safe or legal to do that work with that truck. It's really time to get a heavier truck.

Perhaps a separate DD and heavy pulling truck might be appropriate? That way you can compromise on luxuries for the heavy truck and compromise capacity on the DD.


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## snopushin ford (Feb 20, 2010)

That 08 450 sounds good for what you do. I bet your truck would sell for upper 20's. So to upgrade to a truck like that for around 8-10k isn't bad IMO. I have a tuned 6.4 and it has lots of power. We have F550's at work and occasionally they see 6 ton of asphalt and handle it well (4:88 gears). Good luck


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

theholycow;1563867 said:


> Same here...I keep typing up and abandoning posts. Suffice it to say, it is not safe or legal to do that work with that truck. It's really time to get a heavier truck.
> 
> Perhaps a separate DD and heavy pulling truck might be appropriate? That way you can compromise on luxuries for the heavy truck and compromise capacity on the DD.


I appreciate the effort to keep the posts on topic. I'm aware that what I'm using the truck for far exceeds it's intended purpose. 99.9% of my heavy loads are a few miles (field to the farm) and if I see any traffic at all it's probably someone else hauling with us.

I've considered running 2 trucks but part of it comes down to knowing I'll still use whatever truck I'm daily driving to hard. 
Let's say I get into a 1/2ton for a daily driver and get a 550/medium duty as my "work" truck I know I'll probably end up spending more time in the work truck then the daily driver so it's just another added expense I probably don't need. 
I'd rather just have 1 truck for ease of life along with less upkeep, insurance, plates, etc.

If we were talking a 1/2ton and a semi then obviously it completely changes things but I see a fairly well equipped 450/550 still as something a guy could daily drive, use as a work truck, and still take out to dinner Saturday night.


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

snopushin ford;1563871 said:


> That 08 450 sounds good for what you do. I bet your truck would sell for upper 20's. So to upgrade to a truck like that for around 8-10k isn't bad IMO. I have a tuned 6.4 and it has lots of power. We have F550's at work and occasionally they see 6 ton of asphalt and handle it well (4:88 gears). Good luck


I prefer driving a duramax over a 6.4 but it would be second choice in diesel motors if buying used. I've got a friend who knows them inside and out and I'd be sure to set it up right once I get it to make it reliable, efficient, and still fun to drive. I've been fortunate in knowing him since it opens up a wider market of trucks (6.0 and 6.4psd) that I could look into and not have to worry about buying a train wreck on wheels when it comes to what's under the hood.


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

Why not buy a 2x4 dually and just use it for towing then youll save money and still have your dd


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

90plow;1563902 said:


> Why not buy a 2x4 dually and just use it for towing then youll save money and still have your dd


85% of the time that would work but sometimes 4wd or the gearing of 4lo is needed to get a loaded trailer out of a field. If it's nice and dry and the field entrance to the road is nice then 2wd is plenty but if things get wet/slick or it's a pretty steep or uneven path to the road 4wd is nice to have if not necessary at times.

Also sometimes towing in the winter I need 4wd to get down back roads, in and out of farms, or if we have to go through a pasture or field any traction we can get is needed.


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## mcwlandscaping (Sep 8, 2005)

While I never had a fifth wheel/gooseneck setup in my duramax, having almost the same stock truck as you using it for work/towing regularly and now having a dually dump now gives me some insight on your situation. I know i have a 550, but I would say the same about towing with any of the dually setups in the same year range as you have and are looking at. The difference in stability and control is incredible. On top of that plowing in them with the additional weight makes them quite the bulldozer too!

I have a feeling you won't be able to get your truck re-certified if you convert it but I guess I can't say that for sure. The frame itself is only meant to take so much as it is and adding an axle/springs won't change that. I've seen your pics and what you do, you'd never regret going dually...especially with a nice flat bed on it with tool boxes and transfer tank.


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## dieseld (Dec 30, 2005)

Mr.Markus;1563586 said:


> Life's short.. buy a new cab and chasis/ pickbox delete and build your dream truck. They get old fast anyway, plus the new gm boxed frame at the front is rated at 1200lbs more than your current 06.
> Sooner or later you're gonna need a new truck. I've never looked at buying new as money out the window, my trucks more than pay for themselves even if I drive them into the ground and can't get a penny for them when they're done.


Please read this post again.


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

mcwlandscaping;1564390 said:


> While I never had a fifth wheel/gooseneck setup in my duramax, having almost the same stock truck as you using it for work/towing regularly and now having a dually dump now gives me some insight on your situation. I know i have a 550, but I would say the same about towing with any of the dually setups in the same year range as you have and are looking at. The difference in stability and control is incredible. On top of that plowing in them with the additional weight makes them quite the bulldozer too!
> 
> I have a feeling you won't be able to get your truck re-certified if you convert it but I guess I can't say that for sure. The frame itself is only meant to take so much as it is and adding an axle/springs won't change that. I've seen your pics and what you do, you'd never regret going dually...especially with a nice flat bed on it with tool boxes and transfer tank.


The frames between the 2500HD-3500srw-3500drw are all the same. The difference is just the springs, axles, spacers on the front, etc. Getting it re-certified as a 1 ton dually may be tough but I'm still looking into it.

I may end up adding a rear sway bar and plumbing my airbags individually to help with stability. Most of my problem seems to be when I'm on my stock wheels for the winter with the 235's on them. With my wider summer wheels things seem to be ok.



dieseld;1564438 said:


> Please read this post again.


I think I see what he was trying to say there but I was slightly confused as well.


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## mcwlandscaping (Sep 8, 2005)

Mark13;1564497 said:


> The frames between the 2500HD-3500srw-3500drw are all the same. The difference is just the springs, axles, spacers on the front, etc. Getting it re-certified as a 1 ton dually may be tough but I'm still looking into it.


If thats the case I would cost out doing the swap in detail then. Sure, you may not be able to change the actual rating of the truck but you'll have the equipment to be safe. You certainly tow enough to justify running duals.


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## snopushin ford (Feb 20, 2010)

I think that air bags are supposed to be plumbed seperate from each other. Thats the only way that they will not cause swaying. Changing this will help alot. Matt


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## Holland (Aug 18, 2010)

Running your bags separate should help you out a bit. In all reality, it sounds like your truck is close to working the way you want it. Bags and a sway bar might be the answer until funds are better and you can go out and get exactly what you want. 

I had a truck i put bags on and had them tied together to a compressor, a friend had his separate. There was a noticeable difference in how the two acted! Cheap to try!


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Considering that he's running severely overloaded and the only difference between his desired handling and his undesirable handling is _which tires_ he has on, I don't think it is worthwhile or appropriate to try to band-aid it with changes to the bag setup.


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## jb1390 (Sep 23, 2008)

theholycow;1566142 said:


> Considering that he's running severely overloaded and the only difference between his desired handling and his undesirable handling is _which tires_ he has on, I don't think it is worthwhile or appropriate to try to band-aid it with changes to the bag setup.


FWIW, I do remember having more stability problems with bags, than with the current timbrens I run. The roll was pretty severe at times with them plumbed in parallel.

On the original post, I would vote for replace rather than modify, due to the increase in GVWR alone. I doubt you will get a new sticker, and an overweight ticket will be easier to afford if the starting GVWR number is higher, plus it is one less issue if you ever get stopped by DOT.


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

snopushin ford;1565235 said:


> I think that air bags are supposed to be plumbed seperate from each other. Thats the only way that they will not cause swaying. Changing this will help alot. Matt


I've seen them setup both hooked together and separate from each other. I don't think there is a right and a wrong way necessarily as much as it depends on the situation.



Holland;1566136 said:


> Running your bags separate should help you out a bit. In all reality, it sounds like your truck is close to working the way you want it. Bags and a sway bar might be the answer until funds are better and you can go out and get exactly what you want.
> 
> I had a truck i put bags on and had them tied together to a compressor, a friend had his separate. There was a noticeable difference in how the two acted! Cheap to try!


I'm really liking that F450 I mentioned on the previous page but I've got a skid steer to pay for so I'm trying to get by with this truck until I can get something else. I think splitting the bags up and a sway bar will be the ticket to getting it to handle better.



theholycow;1566142 said:


> Considering that he's running severely overloaded and the only difference between his desired handling and his undesirable handling is _which tires_ he has on, I don't think it is worthwhile or appropriate to try to band-aid it with changes to the bag setup.





jb1390;1566226 said:


> FWIW, I do remember having more stability problems with bags, than with the current timbrens I run. The roll was pretty severe at times with them plumbed in parallel.
> 
> On the original post, I would vote for replace rather than modify, due to the increase in GVWR alone. I doubt you will get a new sticker, and an overweight ticket will be easier to afford if the starting GVWR number is higher, plus it is one less issue if you ever get stopped by DOT.


I plan to replace with a more fitting truck once funds allow, just for right now I can't do much and the lack of snow isn't helping things move any quicker.


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## Plow Nuts (Jan 11, 2011)

Hey mark if you want to take a ride to jersey we csn swap out back ends. Beds,wheels and tires,adapters,etc from my 00 3500 dually. It is white. 8ft bed. Even swap. I want to convert from a dually to srw and you want to convert to drw. Works for both.


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