# Can a dump with air brakes, be driven legally under CDL



## MatthewG

Looking at a dump truck, 33K GVWR I think, with air brakes. I know you can lower GVWR, but can you do it with air brakes to be under 26,000 LBS?

Thanks


----------



## Mark13

Are you looking to stay under CDL so you have the ability for more guys to drive it (employees) or something to drive yourself and you don't have a CDL?


----------



## MatthewG

Both, I don't have a cdl, and neither does the driver who will be running the truck


----------



## Mr.Markus

MatthewG;1489966 said:


> Both, I don't have a cdl, and neither does the driver who will be running the truck


Do you /he have an airbrake endorsement?


----------



## MatthewG

We do not, only have a medical card, he has a class C if that means anything 

I know little about this stuff


----------



## Mark13

It might be easier to just go get a CDL, the test really isn't that hard as long as you've practiced some and know what the book wants.


----------



## tuney443

MatthewG;1489942 said:


> Looking at a dump truck, 33K GVWR I think, with air brakes. I know you can lower GVWR, but can you do it with air brakes to be under 26,000 LBS?
> 
> Thanks


You can't just lower a manufacturer's rating.It is etched on your door placard and in DMV's data base for the world to see,which means DOT. However you can raise the weight on your reggy down at DMV,they will gladly take more money from you. How that pans out if you're over that placarded weight is up to MR. DOT officer that day,another officer,different day might be a different result.If you like the truck,just get your CDL and be done with it,including passing the written test on air brakes so you don't have a restriction.


----------



## dfd9

Mr.Markus;1489967 said:


> Do you /he have an airbrake endorsement?


There is no such thing as an air brake endorsement here in the states. Or an air break.



tuney443;1490004 said:


> You can't just lower a manufacturer's rating.It is etched on your door placard and in DMV's data base for the world to see,which means DOT. However you can raise the weight on your reggy down at DMV,they will gladly take more money from you. How that pans out if you're over that placarded weight is up to MR. DOT officer that day,another officer,different day might be a different result.If you like the truck,just get your CDL and be done with it,including passing the written test on air brakes so you don't have a restriction.


Actually, you can lower a mfg's rating, you just have to find someone willing to do it. And have the money.

Matthew, yes, you can have a truck under 26,001 GVWR with air brakes and not need a CDL. Contrary to what most DOT cops will tell you.


----------



## 90plow

Yea you can have a truck with air brakes under cdl if it cAme setup from manufacturer like that. Theres no way you can re class a truck lower theyll get you every time you get pulled over. Registration will say 26,000 open the door it will say 33,000 cant do it.


----------



## MatthewG

I have registered F350s (class 3) as a class 2, so I know at least in PA we can do that, just wasn't sure about the air brakes


----------



## MatthewG

This could work
http://poconos.craigslist.org/for/3192540900.html


----------



## dfd9

90plow;1490053 said:


> Yea you can have a truck with air brakes under cdl if it cAme setup from manufacturer like that. Theres no way you can re class a truck lower theyll get you every time you get pulled over. Registration will say 26,000 open the door it will say 33,000 cant do it.


Yes, you can.

You need to find someone that will reclassify it for you. As in give you a new sticker that shows GVWR at 26,000.


----------



## 2COR517

Have to subscribe to any CDL thread


----------



## bighornjd

I have one of my trucks like this. I know for a fact it is rated at 33,000 but the sticker in the door is gone. Previous owner had it registered at 26,000 and I did the same after I bought it. It has air brakes and I drove it pretty regular for a couple years with no CDL. From what I could comprehend of the law I was legal but I had LOTS of people tell me i wasn't. Luckily I never got stopped and had to find out the hard way. I now have a CDL so no worries. Except it is still reg at 26k and I quite often load it up closer to 33k. Knock on wood haven't gotten an OW with it in the several years I've been runnin it so what I've saved in reg fees will probly still cover an OW. One of these days I suppose I'll get nailed and up the reg to 33k but I guess I'll keep taking my chances until my luck runs out lol.


----------



## DAFFMOBILEWASH

I would be leary for the fact the truck will loose 3.5 ton of capacity. If it is a single axle then you would have about a 6 ton load capacity to keep it within the limits of the law. It is a grey area, perhaps worth it for short term but in time you will have to deal with it.


----------



## pohouse

Here in Nebraska, it's illegal. The GVWR is set by the manufacturer and cannot be changed. Years ago though, a truck dealer could modify the truck and retag with a lower GVWR. But the practice is now illegal here. Not sure about other states.

Just get a CDL.


----------



## tuney443

''Actually, you can lower a mfg's rating, you just have to find someone willing to do it. And have the money.''

I was talking in legal circles,NOT some shady deal that eventually will bite you in the azz. It should be evident that it is just so much easier all around to just get a CDL and not have to worry about trying to circumvent the laws.My feeling is that a big truck is a big truck and just because a 1 lb. difference[26K lbs. vs. 26,001lbs.] legally will determine whether one needs a CDL,a driver should still be very aware how to safely drive that big truck.It's very frightening to think that some air head like Paris Hilton or Snookie can rent and drive a big box truck from U haul with a regular license.


----------



## PR Fect

bighornjd;1490238 said:


> I have one of my trucks like this. I know for a fact it is rated at 33,000 but the sticker in the door is gone. Previous owner had it registered at 26,000 and I did the same after I bought it. It has air brakes and I drove it pretty regular for a couple years with no CDL. From what I could comprehend of the law I was legal but I had LOTS of people tell me i wasn't. Luckily I never got stopped and had to find out the hard way. I now have a CDL so no worries. Except it is still reg at 26k and I quite often load it up closer to 33k. Knock on wood haven't gotten an OW with it in the several years I've been runnin it so what I've saved in reg fees will probly still cover an OW. One of these days I suppose I'll get nailed and up the reg to 33k but I guess I'll keep taking my chances until my luck runs out lol.


No, you can not drive a truck with air brakes here in Wisconsin. But who the hell cares, your not in Wisconsin. So my post is as useless as all of the rest of these posts except the one I quoted above from JD


----------



## mrv8outboard

OEM chassis GVW's are altered all the time legally. Most trucks start life as an "incomplete vehicle" and are altered by body manufacturers. They then give the truck a new GVW sticker that includes new front,rear,gross and combined weight. That being said it is done with engineering and insurance to cover the alterations.


----------



## dfd9

2COR517;1490204 said:


> Have to subscribe to any CDL thread


Where's that one know-it-all who usually jumps in on these threads.



pohouse;1490250 said:


> Here in Nebraska, it's illegal. The GVWR is set by the manufacturer and cannot be changed. Years ago though, a truck dealer could modify the truck and retag with a lower GVWR. But the practice is now illegal here. Not sure about other states.
> 
> Just get a CDL.


Could you possibly provide a link to the law that states derating is illegal?

Because what happens if I buy a truck in Iowa while living there, have it derated then move to Nebraska?

Or are you referring to the air break\brake endorsement?



tuney443;1490260 said:


> ''Actually, you can lower a mfg's rating, you just have to find someone willing to do it. And have the money.''
> 
> I was talking in legal circles,NOT some shady deal that eventually will bite you in the azz. It should be evident that it is just so much easier all around to just get a CDL and not have to worry about trying to circumvent the laws.My feeling is that a big truck is a big truck and just because a 1 lb. difference[26K lbs. vs. 26,001lbs.] legally will determine whether one needs a CDL,a driver should still be very aware how to safely drive that big truck.It's very frightening to think that some air head like Paris Hilton or Snookie can rent and drive a big box truck from U haul with a regular license.


As others have stated, it is perfectly legal. The "willing" comment was that it is quite often difficult to locate someone to do it. It isn't shady and when done by the book, won't bite you or me in the ass.

There is no circumvention of laws. The problem for the OP will be that he is limiting his carrying capacity. If he derates his truck, and then proceeds to load it over 26,001, he will be on the hook for being overloaded. Even though the truck can handle it.

I agree, 1 pound does not make a difference, but that is what the law states.


----------



## 2COR517

dfd9;1490843 said:


> Where's that one know-it-all who usually jumps in on these threads?


That's what I am wondering


----------



## MatthewG

I need a truck truck for winter salting only, I need to spread about 10 tons in one parking lot.

Even if I have to make 2 trips to stay under 26K I will.

Im asking because getting a CDL, buying a heavier truck, more insurance, higher registration, etc., just is not worth it.


----------



## blowerman

2COR517;1490847 said:


> That's what I am wondering


These are usually painful threads... The best answer is always: just get a cdl!


----------



## peteo1

2COR517;1490847 said:


> That's what I am wondering


Hopefully his know it all self drove his cdl truck over a cliff and we won't have to listen to him again.


----------



## 90plow

Other thing to consider is that this truck will be heavier allowing you to carry less. Also Air brakes require special attention in cold weather.


----------



## 2COR517

peteo1;1490945 said:


> Hopefully his know it all self drove his cdl truck over a cliff and we won't have to listen to him again.


Now that's just mean :-(


----------



## jomama45

PR Fect;1490449 said:


> No, you can not drive a truck with air brakes here in Wisconsin. But who the hell cares, your not in Wisconsin. So my post is as useless as all of the rest of these posts except the one I quoted above from JD


Sure you can, as long as the vehicle does not require a CDL for it's weight..........

I think the CDL "guru" may be busy teaching a local dog-house builder how to operate a skid-steer properly............Thumbs Up


----------



## peteo1

2COR517;1490950 said:


> Now that's just mean :-(


Yeah I know but that guy is a *&%$ 
I can't stand people who are know it alls and can't admit when they're wrong.


----------



## tuney443

dfd9;1490843 said:


> Where's that one know-it-all who usually jumps in on these threads.
> 
> Could you possibly provide a link to the law that states derating is illegal?
> 
> Because what happens if I buy a truck in Iowa while living there, have it derated then move to Nebraska?
> 
> Or are you referring to the air break\brake endorsement?
> 
> As others have stated, it is perfectly legal. The "willing" comment was that it is quite often difficult to locate someone to do it. It isn't shady and when done by the book, won't bite you or me in the ass.
> 
> There is no circumvention of laws. The problem for the OP will be that he is limiting his carrying capacity. If he derates his truck, and then proceeds to load it over 26,001, he will be on the hook for being overloaded. Even though the truck can handle it.
> 
> I agree, 1 pound does not make a difference, but that is what the law states.


''As others have stated'' is part of your proof that you think you're right?NOT really a good argument for sure.Actually more members sided my way but that's really not my point.

By your reasoning,I suppose you think you can take an old Mack DM800 dump truck with a GVW say in the area of 65K-80K lbs. and register it for say 10K lbs. after of course you find this ''someone'' to alter the numbers?Maybe an exaggeration,but why not---according to your arguement it should work. NOT going to happen.

''It isn't shady when done by the book''????????---It's so shady it's pitch black and WHOSE book? Where is this book? Who's the author of this book? Certainly NOT DOT,that's a given.

You can raise GVW-ONLY by a qualified,registered body upfitter after frame,suspension,brakes,and/or tires have been altered.By this,I mean that same upfitter will physically change the placarded weight and other numbers on your door jamb.You can not just LEGALLY lower GVW on a whim because it suits you to avoid getting a CDL or some other reason.


----------



## dfd9

tuney443;1491071 said:


> ''As others have stated'' is part of your proof that you think you're right?NOT really a good argument for sure.Actually more members sided my way but that's really not my point.
> 
> By your reasoning,I suppose you think you can take an old Mack DM800 dump truck with a GVW say in the area of 65K-80K lbs. and register it for say 10K lbs. after of course you find this ''someone'' to alter the numbers?Maybe an exaggeration,but why not---according to your arguement it should work. NOT going to happen.
> 
> ''It isn't shady when done by the book''????????---It's so shady it's pitch black and WHOSE book? Where is this book? Who's the author of this book? Certainly NOT DOT,that's a given.
> 
> You can raise GVW-ONLY by a qualified,registered body upfitter after frame,suspension,brakes,and/or tires have been altered.You can not just LEGALLY lower GVW on a whim because it suits you to avoid getting a CDL or some other reason.


Fine, you're right.


----------



## 2005_Sierra

the state couldnt care any less what its registered at, CDL requirements are all based off of GVWR 
www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/fact_sheets/fs-cdl.pdf


----------



## 2COR517

peteo1;1491051 said:


> Yeah I know but that guy is a *&%$
> I can't stand people who are know it alls and can't admit when they're wrong.


Many people hate admitting someone else may know more than them


----------



## 2COR517

jomama45;1490976 said:


> Sure you can, as long as the vehicle does not require a CDL for it's weight..........
> 
> I think the CDL "guru" may be busy teaching a local dog-house builder how to operate a skid-steer properly............Thumbs Up


Does that mean no scuba gear required?


----------



## 90plow

Ok im going to buy a tri axle and register it for 26,000 lbs and give it to my guys who dont have cdls to drive. Works given your theories right???


----------



## 2COR517

Registering for a lower weight and de-rating to a lower weight is completely different. Either way, one scoop of gravel and you're overweight


----------



## jomama45

2COR517;1491175 said:


> Does that mean no scuba gear required?


How fast you forget the details, the fine young lady from Miami tried taking a CTL for a "submarine mission", not a skid steer...................:laughing:


----------



## 2COR517

Well that makes all the floatation tire jokes seem silly now


----------



## clark lawn

I work at a heavy truck dealership. We have had a few people trying to get trucks derated to be under CDL. After the shop foreman spent many days talking with both the manufacurer and the state we were told that we cannot legally derated a truck.


----------



## tjctransport

call PA MVC and ask them. they will tell you that if you are driving a truck with air brakes, you will need a CDL class C with air brake endorsement at minimum.

vehicle weight has nothing to do with it. if it has air brakes, you need a class C with air brake endorsement.


----------



## dfd9

tjctransport;1491305 said:


> call PA MVC and ask them. they will tell you that if you are driving a truck with air brakes, you will need a CDL class C with air brake endorsement at minimum.
> 
> vehicle weight has nothing to do with it. if it has air brakes, you need a class C with air brake endorsement.


Oh boy, here we go. Can you please provide a link backing what you claim?

There is no such thing as an air brake endorsement.

For that matter, there is no such thing as an air break endorsement, either.

Not to mention, if the truck in question does not require a driver with a CDL, how can one get an air brake "endorsement" on one's normal driver's license?

DOT\MC officers have been getting away with this fallacy for years and years and years. I can have air brakes on my pickup and won't need a CDL, because the GVWR of the truck falls below CDL requirements. Which IS what determines CDL requirements. Not air brakes.

Let me help. TJC, this is straight from Pennsyltucky's DMV website. You know, the OFFICIAL website of Pennsyltucky gubmint.

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/pub_223/section_1.pdf

Take a look at Section 1-1 and the flow chart listed. You will not find the words "air brakes" anywhere on that page that designates when one needs a CDL.

Now, go look at Section 1-3 that lists endorsements and restrictions. There is no such thing as an air brake endorsement.

Now, before you go off on me because I listed the requirements of the state of Pennsyltucky from their website, go ask PA MVC how they can misinterpret the requirements that they put forth in the book that is to be studied by one who desires a CDL.

Don't feel bad, for years and years DOT\MCE have been misinterpreting this part of the FEDERAL law so they could write more tickets. All those tickets for drivers with no CDL for trucks under 26,001 have been illegal.


----------



## Mr.Markus

Sorry.....section 1.1 " You must take the Air Brake Knowledge test if your vehicle has air brakes, including air over hydraulic brakes."
You're right they feel you won't understand the word endorsement.


----------



## dfd9

Mr.Markus;1491315 said:


> Sorry.....section 1.1 " You must take the Air Brake Knowledge test if your vehicle has air brakes, including air over hydraulic brakes."
> You're right they feel you won't understand the word endorsement.


What page? Never mind page 8. You will notice that preceding that statement, definitions are once again provided on who needs a CDL.

Because you are skipping over the part that says who needs a CDL.

If a truck has a GVW of 22,000#, it is under CDL requirements, yes? We can all agree on that, right?

So, one only needs either a plain operator's license or chauffeur license to operate the above truck, yes?

There is no such thing as an air brake restriction on an operator's license or chauffeur license. So, when one has a truck under 26,001#, and no trailer attached, there is no need for a CDL and hence no need for an air brake restriction. Because legally, it can't happen.

Anyways, look at page 5, with the flowchart. This page refers to who needs a CDL. This page has no mention of air brakes.


----------



## blowerman

CDL and National threads, I don't know which is worse...

I read this that a airbrake endorsement is needed to operate "airbrakes"
Has nothing to do with truck weight. For that matter, the truck would be classified as a commercial vehicle based on use.

In addition to the cdL classes, there are also special endorsements and restrictions you must have to drive certain types of commercial vehicles. they are:
endoRsements/RestRIctIons
endoRsements
L	- H - n - t	- P - S - x-
restricts the driver to vehicles not equipped with air brakes.
required to drive a vehicle with hazardous materials placards (you must be 21 years of age).
required to drive a tank vehicle.
required to drive double and triple trailers.
required to drive a vehicle designed to carry 16 passengers or more, including the driver (buses).
required to drive a school bus. designed to carry 11 passengers or more, including the driver.
represents a combination of the hazardous materials and tank vehicle endorsements
(you must be 21 years of age).
RestRIctIons
L	- restricts the driver to vehicles not equipped with air brakes.
B - Passenger endorsement restriction – cannot drive class A buses.
c - Passenger endorsement restriction – cannot drive class A or B buses.
Q - requires the driver to wear corrective lenses while driving a commercial motor vehicle.
Y -requiresthedrivertowearahearingaid(s)whiledrivingacommercialmotorvehicle.
A - restricts the driver to only drive within an exempt intracity zone (49 cFr § 391.62).
G - Indicates the driver is qualified medically by operation of 49 cFr § 391.62.
v - Indicates the driver is qualified and has been issued a medical variance. (medical variance documentation must be carried at all times when operating a commercial motor vehicle.)


----------



## tjctransport

dfd9;1491308 said:


> Oh boy, here we go. Can you please provide a link backing what you claim?
> 
> There is no such thing as an air brake endorsement.
> 
> .


before you get all high and mighty, maybe you should read the link you post as reference to your wrong information.

endorsements
L - restricts the driver to vehicles not equipped with air brakes.

this tells me you need a minimum of a class C CDL with an air brake endorsement to drive a vehicle with air brakes, just like in New Jersey.


----------



## tjctransport

dfd9;1491344 said:


> What page? Never mind page 8. You will notice that preceding that statement, definitions are once again provided on who needs a CDL.
> 
> Because you are skipping over the part that says who needs a CDL.
> 
> If a truck has a GVW of 22,000#, it is under CDL requirements, yes? We can all agree on that, right?.


no. if it has air brakes, you need a CDL. weight has nothing to do with it. 
it can have a GVW of 19,999 lbs. if it has air brakes, you need a CDL.


----------



## dfd9

tjctransport;1491395 said:


> no. if it has air brakes, you need a CDL. weight has nothing to do with it.
> it can have a GVW of 19,999 lbs. if it has air brakes, you need a CDL.


You're right. Never mind the law.


----------



## peteo1

Mmmmm popcorn is ready....


----------



## goel

Pass some over, smells yummy.


----------



## 2COR517

What's the letter for airbrake endorsement? I want to check my license


----------



## MatthewG

So glad I started this, and to think I'm gonna buy a truck under 26,001, what a waste


----------



## tjctransport

2COR517;1491466 said:


> What's the letter for airbrake endorsement? I want to check my license


since you do not list a state for location, the answer to your question is call your state DMV and ask them.


----------



## Mr.Markus

tjctransport;1491495 said:


> since you do not list a state for location, the answer to your question is call your state DMV and ask them.


Mines a Z..... but I'm just Canadian and don't count.


----------



## Mr.Markus

tjctransport;1491495 said:


> since you do not list a state for location, the answer to your question is call your state DMV and ask them.


Mines a Z..... but I'm just Canadian and don't count(.And it's ZED not ZEE).


----------



## K&L Salting

*letters on CDL*

M restricted to opperating automatic transmission only. at least in Indiana


----------



## 2COR517

tjctransport;1491495 said:


> since you do not list a state for location, the answer to your question is call your state DMV and ask them.


What's the letter for airbrake endorsement in your state?


----------



## tuney443

Why do I feel the need to put back on my yellow muck boots that I wore today working on my customer's 6'' terra cotta sewer line that has been restricted in function since February???A-n-y-way,I'm endorsing the members who agree there is no air brake endorsement,just a restriction,because that is just pure fact.


----------



## clark lawn

State does not matter for the letters on endorsements, they are federal. CDL is based on weight with the exception of vehicles designed to transport more than 16 people or placarded for HAZMAT. Air brakes have nothing to do with it. If it is under 26,001 and doesn't meet either of the two qualifications above then no CDL need regardless of what kind of brakes it has.


----------



## clark lawn

tjctransport;1491394 said:


> before you get all high and mighty, maybe you should read the link you post as reference to your wrong information.
> 
> endorsements
> L - restricts the driver to vehicles not equipped with air brakes.
> 
> this tells me you need a minimum of a class C CDL with an air brake endorsement to drive a vehicle with air brakes, just like in New Jersey.


How do you need a class C?


----------



## dfd9

tuney443;1491607 said:


> Why do I feel the need to put back on my yellow muck boots that I wore today working on my customer's 6'' terra cotta sewer line that has been restricted in function since February???A-n-y-way,I'm endorsing the members who agree there is no air brake endorsement,just a restriction,because that is just pure fact.


Thumbs Up

We're getting somewhere.



clark lawn;1491637 said:


> State does not matter for the letters on endorsements, they are federal. CDL is based on weight with the exception of vehicles designed to transport more than 16 people or placarded for HAZMAT. Air brakes have nothing to do with it. If it is under 26,001 and doesn't meet either of the two qualifications above then no CDL need regardless of what kind of brakes it has.


Hey, someone else who gets it.

But, I predict within another couple posts, you will be banging your head against the wall and just agreeing with the ignoramuses that continue to post fallacies here. Just because.



clark lawn;1491638 said:


> How do you need a class C?


Clark, give it up NOW, for your own sanity, don't even go there.


----------



## Mr.Markus

tuney443;1491607 said:


> :A-n-y-way,I'm endorsing the members who agree there is no air brake endorsement,just a restriction,because that is just pure fact.


I'm sorry I brought it up...We call it an endorsement (in Canada) Your system calls it a restriction. In either case you have to pass a test showing you understand the theory and mechanics of an airbrake system before you can legally drive a air brake equipped vehicle of which the op was asking about. I thought that mentioning the airbrakes ..criteria might help him with his choise. I hope he got the point.


----------



## clark lawn

Mr.Markus;1491665 said:


> I'm sorry I brought it up...We call it an endorsement (in Canada) Your system calls it a restriction. In either case you have to pass a test showing you understand the theory and mechanics of an airbrake system before you can legally drive a air brake equipped vehicle of which the op was asking about. I thought that mentioning the airbrakes ..criteria might help him with his choise. I hope he got the point.


Only if a CDL is required


----------



## jomama45

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?8158-Air-Brakes-for-Under-CDL-Vehicles


----------



## jomama45

http://www.iowadot.gov/mvd/ods/cdl/section5.pdf

Pretty sure the last sentence of the first paragraph makes it relatively clear............

*An air brake endorsement is only 
required if your vehicle needs a CDL.*


----------



## clark lawn

There is no such endorsement!!!


----------



## dfd9

clark lawn;1491704 said:


> Only if a CDL is required





jomama45;1491708 said:


> http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?8158-Air-Brakes-for-Under-CDL-Vehicles





jomama45;1491709 said:


> http://www.iowadot.gov/mvd/ods/cdl/section5.pdf
> 
> Pretty sure the last sentence of the first paragraph makes it relatively clear............
> 
> *An air brake endorsement is only
> required if your vehicle needs a CDL.*





clark lawn;1491729 said:


> There is no such endorsement!!!


I tried to warn you guys before you got involved in this.

Just so you don't blame me.

Because I can guarantee at least one of these guys is going to say you're wrong.

What's worse, is I can't help myself.


----------



## StuveCorp

MatthewG;1491491 said:


> So glad I started this, and to think I'm gonna buy a truck under 26,001, what a waste


I think that's why the 550/5500 size is so expensive, to get away from the CDL trap.

We can argue all day long but the reason or problem is no two DOT officials 'interpret' the law the same. It's all to nail us when they want. I would rather just pay for a 'permit' so they leave us alone.


----------



## dfd9

tjctransport;1491395 said:


> no. if it has air brakes, you need a CDL. weight has nothing to do with it.
> it can have a GVW of 19,999 lbs. if it has air brakes, you need a CDL.


OK, I'm an idiot. I looked up the CDL manual for Joisey.

http://www.nj.gov/mvc/pdf/Commercial/CDL_Manual_english.pdf

Section 1 Page 1-2 New Jersey lists the weights for when a CDL is required. Please explain from this manual, the OFFICIAL manual of NJ, how weight has nothing to do with needing a CDL.

I didn't look through the whole thing, but through page 60 of Section 2-54, I could find nothing about someone needing a CDL for a vehicle equipped with air brakes that is UNDER the 26,001 weight where a CDL kicks in.

I really need to take my own advice.


----------



## Rat_Power_78

Have any of you ever seen a factory-built truck that had air brakes and a gvwr of 26001 or greater? I have never seen such a thing myself, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. When I got my CDL, the way it was explained to me is here in the U.S. you can get a CDL without taking the airbrake portion of the test, that would be why they call it a *RESTRICTION*. For example, our F350 GVW is 12,500. Hook that up to our 14,000 pound rated skid loader trailer and you get a CGVW (Combined Gross Vehicle Weight-what the DOT will go by when you get stopped with a trailer) of 26500 pounds. That means you need a CDL to drive that combination even though there is nothing close to an air brake on the truck or trailer.

As I said above, I have never seen anything under 26k with air brakes. If you want a real answer you will have better chances calling your states DOT than you will finding the truth on the internet.

Personally, I would get a CDL and go air brakes. I have spent a lot of time in a single axle 26k gvw truck and even with a legal load the hydraulic brakes seem marginal. Also, they are more expensive to fix and can be hard to get parts for. Once you drive something with air you wont ever want to go back. I myself cant see buying a truck to use only for winter. Maybe making a couple trips with something smaller you can use all year would be better? The cost of license, insurance, repairs, etc really add up. On the other hand, this could be an opportunity to expand your summer business. Something to think about .

Carry on.


----------



## jomama45

dfd9;1491736 said:


> OK, I'm an idiot.
> 
> No argument here............
> 
> I really need to take my own advice.


You're too "block headed" though................:laughing:



Rat_Power_78;1491742 said:


> Have any of you ever seen a factory-built truck that had air brakes and a gvwr of 26001 or greater?
> 
> As I said above, I have never seen anything under 26k with air brakes. If you want a real answer you will have better chances calling your states DOT than you will finding the truth on the internet.


Which one is it? The first example is extremely common, the second not-so-much, but their certainly out there:

http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=3747006&

http://www.tbg-truckbuyersguide.com/details-truck.asp?id=126

http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=3740147&


----------



## dfd9

Rat_Power_78;1491742 said:


> Have any of you ever seen a factory-built truck that had air brakes and a gvwr of 26001 or greater? I have never seen such a thing myself, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.


Pretty sure you mistyped. I believe you meant a truck with GVWR UNDER 26,001 and air brakes.

The cheesewheel wearing guy from Wisconsin covered that pretty well.



Rat_Power_78;1491742 said:


> When I got my CDL, the way it was explained to me is here in the U.S. you can get a CDL without taking the airbrake portion of the test, that would be why they call it a *RESTRICTION*. For example, our F350 GVW is 12,500. Hook that up to our 14,000 pound rated skid loader trailer and you get a CGVW (Combined Gross Vehicle Weight-what the DOT will go by when you get stopped with a trailer) of 26500 pounds. That means you need a CDL to drive that combination even though there is nothing close to an air brake on the truck or trailer.


This, I can agree with.

Although, you do realize that while you would need a CDL, you don't need air brakes. This was the first kind of CDL I got.



Rat_Power_78;1491742 said:


> As I said above, I have never seen anything under 26k with air brakes. If you want a real answer you will have better chances calling your states DOT than you will finding the truth on the internet.


So when I read the official state website and their CDL manual, it is not to be believed? Every link I posted in this thread is the official state website following with .gov. If we can't believe that, who can we believe?



Rat_Power_78;1491742 said:


> Personally, I would get a CDL and go air brakes. I have spent a lot of time in a single axle 26k gvw truck and even with a legal load the hydraulic brakes seem marginal. Also, they are more expensive to fix and can be hard to get parts for. Once you drive something with air you wont ever want to go back. I myself cant see buying a truck to use only for winter. Maybe making a couple trips with something smaller you can use all year would be better? The cost of license, insurance, repairs, etc really add up. On the other hand, this could be an opportunity to expand your summer business. Something to think about .
> 
> Carry on.


I agree wholeheartedly. If I had the opportunity to go back in time I would order my F800 (GVWR of 25,995) with air brakes because of the very reasons you mention: not as good and expensive to repair. But when I ordered it, I was under the mistaken impression that about 97% of the posters to this thread still are: Anything with air brakes requires a CDL. The problem is, that is wrong. And many cops have written tickets and tried to enforce it. They may or may not know they're wrong. But they are. And so are most of the posters in this thread.



jomama45;1491748 said:


> You're too "block headed" though................:laughing:
> 
> Which one is it? The first example is extremely common, the second not-so-much, but their certainly out there:
> 
> http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=3747006&
> 
> http://www.tbg-truckbuyersguide.com/details-truck.asp?id=126
> 
> http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=3740147&


Go eat some cheese from your cheese wheel.


----------



## tjctransport

2COR517;1491574 said:


> What's the letter for airbrake endorsement in your state?


in new jersey there is no letter. you get either a class A, B, or C, and you have air brake endorsement on class B and A automatically. class C can go either way. 
there is also haz-mat, double trailers, tanker, passenger over 15, passenger under 15, bus without passenger for mechanics doing road tests, and a few more.
but we do not give them letters.


----------



## tjctransport

forget all about it. just get the truck and go on your merry way. 
when DOT pulls you over and asks for your CDL and medical card, just tell the trooper the guys on plow site told you you don't need one and that he don't know what he is talking about. 

he will then either agree that since you read it on the internet it has to be true, or impound your truck and throw you in jail for driving without the proper license.


----------



## Rat_Power_78

dfd9;1491761 said:


> Pretty sure you mistyped. I believe you meant a truck with GVWR UNDER 26,001 and air brakes.


Yea I typed that wrong. I meant under 26001, not over.



> Although, you do realize that while you would need a CDL, you don't need air brakes. This was the first kind of CDL I got.


That is exactly my point. A bit off topic but worth noting.



> So when I read the official state website and their CDL manual, it is not to be believed? Every link I posted in this thread is the official state website following with .gov. If we can't believe that, who can we believe?


I was never all that clear on some of the specifics when trying to find answers in any of their publications, whether in print or online. For me, the best source of information was a roadside "counseling" session by an officer of the DOT. Again, a bit off topic but do you really believe everything the government tells you?



> I agree wholeheartedly. If I had the opportunity to go back in time I would order my F800 (GVWR of 25,995) with air brakes because of the very reasons you mention: not as good and expensive to repair. But when I ordered it, I was under the mistaken impression that about 97% of the posters to this thread still are: Anything with air brakes requires a CDL. The problem is, that is wrong. And many cops have written tickets and tried to enforce it. They may or may not know they're wrong. But they are. And so are most of the posters in this thread.


As I said earlier, I wasnt aware you could get air brakes on a truck thats under CDL but I will definetly be watching for such a beast now.



tjctransport;1491768 said:


> forget all about it. just get the truck and go on your merry way.
> when DOT pulls you over and asks for your CDL and medical card, just tell the trooper the guys on plow site told you you don't need one and that he don't know what he is talking about.
> 
> he will then either agree that since you read it on the internet it has to be true, or impound your truck and throw you in jail for driving without the proper license.


I got stopped with a GCWV of 35k and no CDL. Maybe I was lucky, but my truck didnt get impounded and I did not go to the pokey. I did get a hefty fine and wasnt allowed to leave until I could either get someone licensed to drive the combination to come get it or get someone in a smaller truck to take my trailer. Im sure had I argued with the officer he may have been less polite.


----------



## 2COR517

tjctransport;1491766 said:


> in new jersey there is no letter. you get either a class A, B, or C, and you have air brake endorsement on class B and A automatically.


I don't even know where to start with this load of misinformation. Or I'm too tired


----------



## jomama45

dfd9;1491761 said:


> Go eat some cheese from your cheese wheel.


Once again, it's a "wedge", not a wheel, and it's not nearly as silly as wearing an Art Bell issued tin foil hat on one's head.................


----------



## cretebaby

Mr.Markus;1491665 said:


> In either case you have to pass a test showing you understand the theory and mechanics of an airbrake system before you can legally drive a air brake equipped vehicle of which the op was asking about.


Nope. Not if it is under CDL.

Good times. Good times. :laughing:


----------



## clark lawn

tjctransport;1491766 said:


> in new jersey there is no letter. you get either a class A, B, or C, and you have air brake endorsement on class B and A automatically. class C can go either way.
> there is also haz-mat, double trailers, tanker, passenger over 15, passenger under 15, bus without passenger for mechanics doing road tests, and a few more.
> but we do not give them letters.


How about posting a link. Bet you can't because there are so many things wrong with your statement.


----------



## cretebaby

PR Fect;1490449 said:


> No, you can not drive a truck with air brakes here in Wisconsin. But who the hell cares, your not in Wisconsin. So my post is as useless as all of the rest of these posts except the one I quoted above from JD


It makes no difference wether or not you have air brakes in WI. Just like every other state.

I guess that makes your post useless?

I'd highly reccomend you brush up on your understanding of this subject.


----------



## cretebaby

mrv8outboard;1490822 said:


> OEM chassis GVW's are altered all the time legally. Most trucks start life as an "incomplete vehicle" and are altered by body manufacturers. They then give the truck a new GVW sticker that includes new front,rear,gross and combined weight. That being said it is done with engineering and insurance to cover the alterations.


Bravo. You are absolutely correct here. It's a federal deal too so state to state has nothing to do with it.


----------



## cretebaby

blowerman;1491371 said:


> I read this that a airbrake endorsement is needed to operate "airbrakes"


You read it wrong. 



> Has nothing to do with truck weight. For that matter, the truck would be classified as a commercial vehicle based on use.


Is an S-10 a commercial vehicle if used for business?


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1491394 said:


> before you get all high and mighty, maybe you should read the link you post as reference to your wrong information.
> 
> endorsements
> L - restricts the driver to vehicles not equipped with air brakes.
> 
> this tells me you need a minimum of a class C CDL with an air brake endorsement to drive a vehicle with air brakes, just like in New Jersey.


Will it help if I type it real slow?

T h e r e _ i s _ n o _ a i r _ b r a k e _ e n d o r s e m e n t .

Not even in Jersey.


----------



## cretebaby

2COR517;1491466 said:


> What's the letter for airbrake endorsement? I want to check my license


Hee Hee Hee. :redbounce


----------



## cretebaby

Rat_Power_78;1491742 said:


> I have never seen anything under 26k with air brakes.:


I'd suggest opening ones eyes. They are everywhere.


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1491766 said:


> and you have air brake endorsement on class B and A automatically.


Wrong again.

Class A and B can be had either way. With or without an air brake restriction.

Even in Joisey.


----------



## MI Green

I am pretty sure a DOT officer would not care if your truck was plated under 26,000. I am pretty sure he would nail you for not having a CDL. I was looking into camper hauling and they wanted to have the truck plated at 36,000 lbs but I did not need to have a CDL to drive it. I think the plate has to rated for the gross of the truck and trailer. So if you plate the truck at 20,000 lbs the DOT officer would then give you a fine for not CDL, being over weight, and a wrong license plate. Now if you somehow lowers your gross to under 26,000 I have been told that they can go by tire rating also. So my trailer is 7000 gvw and if I put 6 ply tires on it my gross would be over 7000 to the DOT.


----------



## dfd9

MI Green;1491955 said:


> I am pretty sure a DOT officer would not care if your truck was plated under 26,000.


Sigh......it doesn't matter what the plate says. What matters is the GCVWR.

My F800 is plated at 32, but if I don't have a trailer attached, I don't need a CDL.



MI Green;1491955 said:


> I am pretty sure he would nail you for not having a CDL.


While this may be correct, if you took the ticket to court, the judge would throw it out because:

*YOU CAN NOT HAVE AN AIR BRAKE RESTRICTION ON A NORMAL DRIVER'S LICENSE. *

Why is this so hard to understand?



MI Green;1491955 said:


> I was looking into camper hauling and they wanted to have the truck plated at 36,000 lbs but I did not need to have a CDL to drive it. I think the plate has to rated for the gross of the truck and trailer.


This makes sense and is correct. Other than would you really need the 36K? What was the truck rated at?



MI Green;1491955 said:


> So if you plate the truck at 20,000 lbs the DOT officer would then give you a fine for not CDL, being over weight, and a wrong license plate. Now if you somehow lowers your gross to under 26,000 I have been told that they can go by tire rating also. So my trailer is 7000 gvw and if I put 6 ply tires on it my gross would be over 7000 to the DOT.


This really has nothing to do with the discussion other than the mistaken notion several have that GVWR has nothing to do with needing a CDL or not.

I'm wondering if I should bring up tanker endorsements on under CDL trucks. But we should probably have more popcorn ready before that.


----------



## tuney443

Let me try to clarify here.If you are driving a semi in New Mexico while eating a wedge of cheese from Wisconsin,while getting ''serviced'' from the lot lizard you picked up at the last truck stop and you have a class C CDL from Joisey and you get pulled over by the DOT,you simply tell Mr. Gestapo that you don't need an air brake endorsement or a restriction because this rig has been derated from 80K lbs to 10K lbs.,therefore you don't even need any type of CDL at all and the proof is my 6 ply tires that I'm running AND there is proof of all this on PS.Now do you guys get it????


----------



## dfd9

tuney443;1491999 said:


> Let me try to clarify here.If you are driving a semi in New Mexico while eating a wedge of cheese from Wisconsin,while getting ''serviced'' from the lot lizard you picked up at the last truck stop and you have a class C CDL from Joisey and you get pulled over by the DOT,you simply tell Mr. Gestapo that you don't need an air brake endorsement or a restriction because this rig has been derated from 80K lbs to 10K lbs.,therefore you don't even need any type of CDL at all and the proof is my 6 ply tires that I'm running AND there is proof of all this on PS.Now do you guys get it????


Not sure why it took you so long to figure this out.


----------



## WIPensFan

dfd9;1491986 said:


> Sigh......it doesn't matter what the plate says. What matters is the GCVWR.
> 
> My F800 is plated at 32, but if I don't have a trailer attached, I don't need a CDL.
> 
> While this may be correct, if you took the ticket to court, the judge would throw it out because:
> 
> *YOU CAN NOT HAVE AN AIR BRAKE RESTRICTION ON A NORMAL DRIVER'S LICENSE. *
> 
> Why is this so hard to understand?
> 
> This makes sense and is correct. Other than would you really need the 36K? What was the truck rated at?
> 
> This really has nothing to do with the discussion other than the mistaken notion several have that GVWR has nothing to do with needing a CDL or not.
> 
> I'm wondering if I should bring up tanker endorsements on under CDL trucks. But we should probably have more popcorn ready before that.


"My F800 is plated at 32, but if I don't have a trailer attached, I don't need a CDL."

This is WI DOT:

Commercial driver licenses (CDL) are required to operate vehicles that:
•Weigh over 26,000 pounds, determined by the highest of the following weights: ◦manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR)
◦manufacturer's gross combination weight rating (GCWR) when the towed unit has a GVWR, registered weight or actual gross weight over 10,000 pounds
◦actual weight
◦registered weight

So this is different than your rules?


----------



## clark lawn

You do realize that is referring to trailers right? And yes it is about the same. Different wording but overall same meaning.


----------



## WIPensFan

clark lawn;1492084 said:


> You do realize that is referring to trailers right? And yes it is about the same. Different wording but overall same meaning.


Are you talking to me? If so, what do you mean?


----------



## Rat_Power_78

cretebaby;1491952 said:


> I'd suggest opening ones eyes. They are everywhere.


Never said they dont exist, just that I had never seen one.


----------



## cretebaby

WIPensFan;1492040 said:


> "My F800 is plated at 32, but if I don't have a trailer attached, I don't need a CDL."
> 
> This is WI DOT:
> 
> Commercial driver licenses (CDL) are required to operate vehicles that:
> •Weigh over 26,000 pounds, determined by the highest of the following weights: ◦manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR)
> ◦manufacturer's gross combination weight rating (GCWR) when the towed unit has a GVWR, registered weight or actual gross weight over 10,000 pounds
> ◦actual weight
> ◦registered weight
> 
> So this is different than your rules?


I am thinking that MI has combination registration?

Other wise that is pretty much unique to WI. and MN IIRC.


----------



## peteo1

Oh thank heavens...the expert is here. Now we can get this settled.


----------



## JT SNOW

jomama45;1491709 said:


> http://www.iowadot.gov/mvd/ods/cdl/section5.pdf
> 
> Pretty sure the last sentence of the first paragraph makes it relatively clear............
> 
> *An air brake endorsement is only
> required if your vehicle needs a CDL.*





jomama45;1491878 said:


> Once again, it's a "wedge", not a wheel, and it's not nearly as silly as wearing an* Art Bell issued tin foil hat on one's head*.................





dfd9;1491732 said:


> I tried to warn you guys before you got involved in this.
> 
> Just so you don't blame me.
> 
> Because I can guarantee at least one of these guys is going to say you're wrong.
> 
> What's worse, is I can't help myself.


I don't understand how you two got sucked into this Blackhole of a thread......Must be for the entertainment factor.......I understand why cretebaby doe's it...To right the wrongs of mis-information in the world of CDL threads.................:waving:


----------



## 2COR517

JT - if you made a statement with the phrase "air brake endorsement...required" you are adding to the mis-information


----------



## JT SNOW

2COR517;1492188 said:


> JT - if you made a statement with the phrase "air brake endorsement...required" you are adding to the mis-information


I agree......:laughing:

I just love how a thread gets to 5 pages of mis-information.....:laughing:....:waving:


----------



## tjctransport

cretebaby;1491947 said:


> Will it help if I type it real slow?
> 
> T h e r e _ i s _ n o _ a i r _ b r a k e _ e n d o r s e m e n t .
> 
> Not even in Jersey.


really?? gee than i guess the state of New Jersey is wrong then where they say on the commercial driver license page "air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes."


----------



## JT SNOW

tjctransport;1492320 said:


> really?? gee than i guess the state of New Jersey is wrong then where they say on the commercial driver license page "air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes."


What letter is the "Endorsement" on you license?????......


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1492320 said:


> really?? gee than i guess the state of New Jersey is wrong then where they say on the commercial driver license page "air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes."


Like JT asked. Show us what letter represents the "air brake" or air break endorsement on your license.?


----------



## cretebaby

JT SNOW;1492324 said:


> What letter is the "Endorsement" on you license?????......


 "you have air brake endorsement on class B and A automatically" .

:salute:


----------



## JT SNOW

cretebaby;1492327 said:


> "you have air brake endorsement on class B and A automatically"
> 
> :salute:


What!!!!!!............Really?????..................:laughing:.....:salute:


----------



## cretebaby

JT SNOW;1492352 said:


> What!!!!!!............Really?????..................:laughing:.....:salute:


Ya just can't write comedy like that. :laughing:


----------



## clark lawn

tjctransport;1492320 said:


> really?? gee than i guess the state of New Jersey is wrong then where they say on the commercial driver license page "air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes."


We're waiting, what letter and please post a link to support your argument.


----------



## tjctransport

you should really do your homework before telling a former police officer he is wrong regarding his states motor vehicle rules. 
it takes all of about 10 seconds to find the link and read the rules regarding CDL endorsements.

although you all did learn me that there is indeed letters assigned to CDL endorsements in Jersey. 
i did not know that. i guess the letters were assigned since i left the force.

http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Commercial/Endorsements.htm


----------



## JT SNOW

tjctransport;1492376 said:


> you should really do your homework before telling a former police officer he is wrong regarding his states motor vehicle rules.
> it takes all of about 10 seconds to find the link and read the rules regarding CDL endorsements.
> 
> although you all did learn me that there is indeed letters assigned to CDL endorsements in Jersey.
> i did not know that. i guess the letters were assigned since i left the force.
> 
> http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Commercial/Endorsements.htm


I have run across many, many, many, many Motor Carrier Enforcement Officers that don't have a clue about the laws of the state they represent.....I have been to court more times than you can count on your fingers and toes and won....So, pulling the cop card and claiming to know the law is weak.....


----------



## JT SNOW

cretebaby;1492391 said:


> What if I call the DMV and get someone like you that doesn't know what they are talking about?


Its talking "Aboot"........:laughing:

They don't know "Mulch" at the DMV.....


----------



## tjctransport

read what you want to read. it clearly states: an air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes


----------



## cretebaby

Uh Oh. Post count is going backwards again.


----------



## JT SNOW

cretebaby;1492397 said:


> Uh Oh. Post count is going backwards again.


Heheheheh.........:laughing:


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1492395 said:


> read what you want to read. it clearly states: an air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes


And you can skip the part that disagrees in the same box.

Wake up and smell the coffee and doughnuts.

You see that is the problem with calling the DMV. You might end up talking the moron that wrote that.

Sorry aboot that JT. I will try mulch harder in the future.


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1492395 said:


> read what you want to read. it clearly states: an air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes


So if i get cought driving in your state without an "air brake" endorsement, what statute are you goning to write me up for? 

As a cop I would think that you would know that this is federal and doesn't change form state to state.


----------



## clark lawn

tjctransport;1492376 said:


> you should really do your homework before telling a former police officer he is wrong regarding his states motor vehicle rules.
> it takes all of about 10 seconds to find the link and read the rules regarding CDL endorsements.
> 
> although you all did learn me that there is indeed letters assigned to CDL endorsements in Jersey.
> i did not know that. i guess the letters were assigned since i left the force.
> 
> http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Commercial/Endorsements.htm


I don't need to prove I'm right, you however
...


----------



## clark lawn

tjctransport;1492395 said:


> read what you want to read. it clearly states: an air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes


Read the FIRST sentence above the box. "After you have obtained your CDL".

That means that you need a CDL to take the air brake test not vice versa.

Maybe that's why your a FORMER cop.


----------



## 2COR517

tjctransport;1492376 said:


> you should really do your homework before telling a former police officer he is wrong regarding his states motor vehicle rules.
> it takes all of about 10 seconds to find the link and read the rules regarding CDL endorsements.
> 
> although you all did learn me that there is indeed letters assigned to CDL endorsements in Jersey.
> i did not know that. i guess the letters were assigned since i left the force.
> 
> http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Commercial/Endorsements.htm


So what's the letter for airbrake endorsement Mr Officer Sir


----------



## JT SNOW

2COR517;1492479 said:


> So what's the letter for airbrake endorsement Mr Officer Sir


Pick a Letter......Me, i like the letter "Z"........:waving:......:salute:


----------



## clark lawn

tjctransport;1492395 said:


> read what you want to read. it clearly states: an air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes


That box also says "added to your CDL" that would imply that you need a CDL before taking the test. Go back to the CDL requirements and show me were it says you need a CDL for air brakes.


----------



## cretebaby

2COR517;1492479 said:


> So what's the letter for airbrake endorsement Mr Officer Sir


I would prefer to know what letter represents the air brake endorsement on the license in his pocket.


----------



## cretebaby

clark lawn;1492449 said:


> Maybe that's why your a FORMER cop.


And now he is in "transport".


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1492395 said:


> read what you want to read. it clearly states: an air brake endorsement is Needed for any vehicle equipped with air brakes


It clearly says



> If test is not taken, an "L" restriction is added to the CDL license


----------



## tjctransport

clark lawn;1492449 said:


> Read the FIRST sentence above the box. "After you have obtained your CDL".
> 
> That means that you need a CDL to take the air brake test not vice versa.
> 
> Maybe that's why your a FORMER cop.


could you please show me anywhere where i said you could get a air brake endorsement without a CDL??

and i am a former police officer because back in the late 80's i was hit by a drunk driver and was almost killed. it took me close to 5 years to relearn how to walk without crutches.


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1492624 said:


> could you please show me anywhere where i said you could get a air brake endorsement without a CDL??.





> "it clearly states: an air brake endorsement is Needed for *any* vehicle equipped with air brakes"


So is that true or not? 

Why won't you tell us the letter that represents the "air brake' endorsement on your license?


----------



## clark lawn

tjctransport;1491305 said:


> call PA MVC and ask them. they will tell you that if you are driving a truck with air brakes, you will need a CDL class C with air brake endorsement at minimum.
> 
> vehicle weight has nothing to do with it. if it has air iobrakes, you need a class C with air brake endorsement.


Do you need more?


----------



## clark lawn

Sorry that says you need a CDL but that is incorrect also.


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1491305 said:


> call PA MVC and ask them. they will tell you that if you are driving a truck with air brakes, you will need a CDL class C


Hmmmmm.

Do you realize that a class C CDL has only 2 purposes and neither has to do with air brakes?

It's for buses that are tow small to requrie a class B and for hauling hazmat in vehicels that are to small to need a class A or B. That is it. It has nothing to do with air brakes or breaks


----------



## cubanb343

PA Commercial Driver's License

Class: B

Endorse: ----

By golly I took an air brake test and passed when I got my CDL. WTF is going on here?!

Thumbs Up


----------



## clark lawn

tjctransport;1492624 said:


> could you please show me anywhere where i said you could get a air brake endorsement without a CDL??
> 
> and i am a former police officer because back in the late 80's i was hit by a drunk driver and was almoopst killed. it took me close to 5 years to relearn how to walk without crutches.


So you were enforcing CDL LAWS before they existed? CDL started april 1, 1992.


----------



## tjctransport

in new jersey you have needed a special drivers license to drive a commercial vehicle since 1976.
at first it was called an articulated license, then in the early 80's it switched to a CDL with the current regulations.


----------



## tjctransport

cretebaby;1492660 said:


> Hmmmmm.
> 
> Do you realize that a class C CDL has only 2 purposes and neither has to do with air brakes?
> 
> It's for buses that are tow small to requrie a class B and for hauling hazmat in vehicels that are to small to need a class A or B. That is it. It has nothing to do with air brakes or breaks


that may be true in Iowa, but not in New Jersey


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1492752 said:


> that may be true in Iowa, but not in New Jersey


It's true in Joisey. Why not give an example of another use.

Why not just admit you are wrong? You've made statement after statement that are just plain wrong. As well as stupid.

First rule of holes. When you are in one stop digging.



tjctransport;1492752 said:


> that may be true in Iowa, but not in New Jersey


Ya know it may be easier ot read if one pulled their head from their arse.



> Class C includes
> Any vehicle with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds used to transport hazardous material (with mandatory placard)
> Any bus designed to carry 16 or more passengers (including the driver) and with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds
> School vehicles designed for 15 passengers or less (including the driver)
> Any bus or vehicle used for hire and designed to transport eight to 15 passengers (including the driver)


http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Commercial/CommercialDriver.htm

Notice it says nothing _aboot_ air brakes or breaks?

You ever try reading your own CDL manual?

It says that holder of a class C CDL must posess a P or H endorsement. Dropping the endorsement will automatically drop your class C to a class D.

Why do you suppose that is eh?


----------



## BossPlow2010

cretebaby;1492768 said:


> It's true in Joisey. Why not give an example of another use.
> 
> Why not just admit you are wrong? You've made statement after statement that are just plain wrong. As well as stupid.
> 
> First rule of holes. When you are in one stop digging.


What if your boss tells you to dig deeper?


----------



## tjctransport

so with a class a or b license you can not drive a bus?

but with a class c you can automatically drive a bus??



WRONG!!! you need a passenger endorsement to drive a bus with passengers. 
AND you need an air brake endorsement if it has air brakes


----------



## 2COR517

Nobody said you cannot drive a bus with Class A or Class B, nor did anyone say Class C is automatically Bus approved

Still waiting for you to tell us what letter is Air Brake endorsement Mr Officer Sir


----------



## BossPlow2010

Here's a good thread!
Look at the OP's name 
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1072062-air-brake-endorsement.html


----------



## clark lawn

tjctransport;1492777 said:


> so with a class a or b license you can not drive a bus?
> 
> but with a class c you can automatically drive a bus??
> 
> WRONG!!! you need a passenger endorsement to drive a bus with passengers.
> AND you need an air brake endorsement if it has air brakes


So if I have a truck with a 24950 GVWR with air brakes what license do I need?


----------



## cretebaby

tjctransport;1492777 said:


> .
> AND you need an air brake endorsement if it has air brakes


WRONG.

There is no such thing.

How come you can't have a class C CDL unless you have a P or an H?


----------



## clark lawn

Class A includes Tractor trailers 
Any truck and trailer combination with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds – provided that the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed is more than 10,000 pounds 
Any vehicle in B, C or D categories, if you have qualified for the proper extra endorsements

Class B includes Any vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds 
A vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds towing a trailer with a GVWR of less than 10,000 pounds
A bus with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds designed to transport 16 or more passengers (including driver)
Vehicles in Class C and D categories – provided you have qualified for the proper extra endorsements 

Class C includes Any vehicle with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds used to transport hazardous material (with mandatory placard) 
Any bus designed to carry 16 or more passengers (including the driver) and with a GVWR of less than 26,001 pounds 
School vehicles designed for 15 passengers or less (including the driver) 
Any bus or vehicle used for hire and designed to transport eight to 15 passengers (including the driver)


this was taken directly from the link you provided, show me were it states that a CDL is needed for air brakes or how a Class C would even come into play here.


----------



## dfd9

cretebaby;1492768 said:


> It's true in Joisey. Why not give an example of another use.
> 
> Why not just admit you are wrong? You've made statement after statement that are just plain wrong. As well as stupid.
> 
> First rule of holes. When you are in one stop digging.
> 
> Ya know it may be easier ot read if one pulled their head from their arse.


This is how I envision tjc:


----------



## cretebaby

clark lawn;1492798 said:


> So if I have a truck with a 24950 GVWR with air brakes what license do I need?


Apparently a class C with a P or H endorsement.


----------



## cretebaby

dfd9;1492947 said:


> This is how I envision tjc:


:laughing:


----------



## clark lawn

cretebaby;1492992 said:


> Apparently a class C with a P or H endorsement.


But what about the air brakes? Don't I need that endorsement?

Guess I can't drive it since I have a Class A with everything but hazmat and air brake.


----------



## dfd9

tjctransport;1492376 said:


> you should really do your homework before telling a former police officer he is wrong regarding his states motor vehicle rules.
> it takes all of about 10 seconds to find the link and read the rules regarding CDL endorsements.
> 
> although you all did learn me that there is indeed letters assigned to CDL endorsements in Jersey.
> i did not know that. i guess the letters were assigned since i left the force.
> 
> http://www.nj.gov/mvc/Commercial/Endorsements.htm


So, if you were wrong about the letters, how do you know you aren't wrong about the air brake\break "endorsement"?

Sorry to hear\here aboot your injuries, but that doesn't change the fact that you are wrong and won't admit it.

I had an argument with a trooper and a MC officer about leaving the scene of an accident. The trooper said she was going to charge my driver with leaving the scene of an accident because he didn't wait for a trooper to show up. The problem is, the damage was under $1000; the driver's exchanged information; no one was hurt. They followed the law. The trooper didn't see it that way. The trooper was wrong. The MC officer told me the same thing, because it was a CMV, except there is no clause in the law that requires a CMV or private vehicle\operator to remain at the scene of an accident if the damage is under $1000, no one is hurt, and driver information is exchanged.

I find it offensive and flat out wrong that cops are allowed to lie to citizens, but it is against the law to lie to a cop. Or accuse them of an offense they know won't stick. As in leaving the scene of an accident. She didn't deny that it wouldn't stick when I told her that, either. Some kind of public servant she is.


----------



## cretebaby

clark lawn;1493007 said:


> But what about the air brakes? Don't I need that endorsement?


Well ya Duh. You need the L endorsement. Oh wait the L is a restriction.

Hmmmm How can L be an endorsement and a restriction on the same license? 



clark lawn;1493007 said:


> Guess I can't drive it since I have a Class A with everything but hazmat and air brake.


Well duh silly. A class A comes with air brakes automatically. :laughing:


----------



## cretebaby

Tjc. do you know this PS memeber named bluerage?

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?p=971726&highlight=cdl#post971726

You two have to be related.


----------



## pohouse

dfd9;1490843 said:


> Where's that one know-it-all who usually jumps in on these threads.
> 
> Could you possibly provide a link to the law that states derating is illegal?
> 
> Because what happens if I buy a truck in Iowa while living there, have it derated then move to Nebraska?
> 
> As others have stated, it is perfectly legal. The "willing" comment was that it is quite often difficult to locate someone to do it. It isn't shady and when done by the book, won't bite you or me in the ass.
> 
> There is no circumvention of laws. The problem for the OP will be that he is limiting his carrying capacity. If he derates his truck, and then proceeds to load it over 26,001, he will be on the hook for being overloaded. Even though the truck can handle it.
> 
> I agree, 1 pound does not make a difference, but that is what the law states.


Liability is why it is difficult, even illegal in some states. If an upfitter derates a preowned truck to under 26000, when the manufacturer has set a higher GVRW, who do you think is going to be liable when the non-CDL driver, overloads the lower rating and plows into a van packed with kids?

Registering and plating with a lower GVWR is something different, is legal and can be done, however DOT will always go by the original GVRW as set by the manufacturer. To change the GVWR as set by the manufacturer, and posted on your door frame is a difficult proposition for an old truck.


----------



## 2COR517

pohouse;1493049 said:


> Liability is why it is difficult, even illegal in some states. If an upfitter derates a preowned truck to under 26000, when the manufacturer has set a higher GVRW, who do you think is going to be liable when the non-CDL driver, overloads the lower rating and plows into a van packed with kids?
> 
> Registering and plating with a lower GVWR is something different, is legal and can be done, however DOT will always go by the original GVRW as set by the manufacturer. To change the GVWR as set by the manufacturer, and posted on your door frame is a difficult proposition for an old truck.


I think the driver will be liable, just like the guy that haul a 12k trailer behind his 10 year old half ton.

And why would the age of the truck affect derating the GVWR?


----------



## cretebaby

pohouse;1493049 said:


> Liability is why it is difficult, even illegal in some states. If an upfitter derates a preowned truck to under 26000, when the manufacturer has set a higher GVRW, who do you think is going to be liable when the non-CDL driver, overloads the lower rating and plows into a van packed with kids?
> 
> Registering and plating with a lower GVWR is something different, is legal and can be done, however DOT will always go by the original GVRW as set by the manufacturer. To change the GVWR as set by the manufacturer, and posted on your door frame is a difficult proposition for an old truck.


This illegal notion is rediculous.

GVWRs are raised and lowered everyday.

When we bring in a used quad axle and knock off the tag and pusher does it still have the same GVWR? No, of course it doesn't. When we add axles does it have the same GVWR? Again NO.

Liability is no more of an issue than it is for any other business.


----------



## JT SNOW

Im confused.......Do i need an endorsement to run a dump with air brakes.....


----------



## cretebaby

JT SNOW;1493422 said:


> Im confused.......Do i need an endorsement to run a dump with air brakes.....


Don't have one do ya?


----------



## Upper5percent

MatthewG;1489942 said:


> Looking at a dump truck, 33K GVWR I think, with air brakes. I know you can lower GVWR, but can you do it with air brakes to be under 26,000 LBS?
> 
> Thanks


 Under 26,001 lbs, you can operate the vehicle on a standard Class C whether air brake equipped or not. There is no "L" restriction on a Class C.* Air restrictions only apply to CMV's (vehicles with a GVWR of, or an actual weight of 26,001 and greater)* I put that in bold because, if you're operating a truck with a 26,000 GVWR, *but with a load you actually are say 26,500 and get pulled over and weighed, you're gonna get slapped for operating a CMV on a Class C.*

References:

FMCSA §383.5 Definitions.

Commercial driver's license (CDL) means a license issued by a State or other jurisdiction, in accordance with the standards contained in 49 CFR Part 383 , to an individual which authorizes the individual to operate a class of a commercial motor vehicle.

Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used in commerce to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle-

(a) Has a gross combination weight rating of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds); or

(b) Has a gross vehicle weight rating of 11,794 or more kilograms (26,001 pounds or more); or

(c) Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

(d) Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials as defined in this section.

FMCSA §383.95 Air brake restrictions.

(a) If an applicant either fails the air brake component of the knowledge test, or performs the skills test in a vehicle not equipped with air brakes, the State shall indicate on the CDL, if issued, that the person is restricted from operating a CMV equipped with air brakes.

(b) For the purposes of the skills test and the restriction, air brakes shall include any braking system operating fully or partially on the air brake principle.


----------



## clark lawn

Did you read what you copy and pasted before you did it? If so you would know that everything you just said was wrong.


----------



## cretebaby

clark lawn;1493499 said:


> Did you read what you copy and pasted before you did it? If so you would know that everything you just said was wrong.


Was going to say the same thing.


----------

