# Alternative story to USM



## chitownsnowedin (Feb 5, 2008)

I have worked with USM for 3 seasons prior to this one. Handle a handful of Best Buys and some banks.

I have not had some of the problems others have mentioned on here at all. I have been paid every last cent short of their stupid 4% fee. But you know what, that fee didn't jump up and surprise me. I knew it was there and I took accounts knowing to expect to get 4% less.

That being said, their paperwork requirements are annoying. And you will be asked to submit the same documents repeatedly. I once sent in a cert of Insurance 5 times one month. 

And yes, sometimes you will lose money if you accept their proposal for a location. You simply say no and don't take it. I turn down at least 10 accounts every year for them. 

This year they sent me a couple dozen Wal-Mart's. I selected 2 I could make money at.

Know your costs, be prepared to be annoyed with repetitive documentation requests, and read the contracts and understand the requirements.

Yes, they are not the best company to work for. I can't speak for all companies out there, but my experience has been one of being paid usually around 60 days. Not for everyone, I understand. But they are not this big evil company who only rips people off as some on here seem to allege either. One piece of proof on that is how everyone mentions the 20% discount for below average snowfall without mentioning the 20% addition for above average snowfall, Outside of USM I have 23 accounts that are seasonal billed. 3 of them have similar clauses. Not a completely unheard of thing that USM made up to screw people.


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## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

You sound like a politician. Most contractors would not sign a contract like USM has. Our attorney could not believe the garbage that was in there. We have to keep the price of our services at our level, not USM's. These national companies can bring the level of service and price of services down. The Walmarts that you did not take will have to be done by someone. If you could not make money on them how is someone else? Come to western NY and try to make money plowing for a middle man. These national companies do not have any experience in the Snow Industry. They are a market company. If I wanted to work for peanuts I would sit in a cage at the zoo and scratch my balls for the people. I do believe this mess that some pencil pusher created will be fun to watch. Have a great winter and remember when you walk in the snow and leave a funny trail you are probably a low baller. LOL


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Tiflawn;874182 said:


> If I wanted to work for peanuts I would sit in a cage at the zoo and scratch my balls for the people.


Nice :laughing::laughing:


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

lmfao, that is too funny, to true also:laughing:


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

chitownsnowedin;874154 said:


> I have worked with USM for 3 seasons prior to this one. Handle a handful of Best Buys and some banks.
> 
> I have not had some of the problems others have mentioned on here at all. I have been paid every last cent short of their stupid 4% fee. But you know what, that fee didn't jump up and surprise me. I knew it was there and I took accounts knowing to expect to get 4% less.
> 
> ...


i have just one question, if USM an alright company to work for, why are so many people pissed with them?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Tiflawn;874182 said:


> They are a market company. If I wanted to work for peanuts I would sit in a cage at the zoo and scratch my balls for the people.
> 
> Have a great winter and remember when you walk in the snow and leave a funny trail you are probably a low baller. LOL


Quote of the day folks.

:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;874214 said:


> Quote of the day folks.
> 
> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


I'll second that.


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## asps4u (Sep 16, 2009)

Tiflawn;874182 said:


> remember when you walk in the snow and leave a funny trail you are probably a low baller. LOL


:laughing: I'm going to hang on to that one. That's awesome! :laughing:


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## lbfmd (Dec 26, 2008)

lol, i think i just wet myself:laughing:

that has to be the best line ever


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

Wow this guy is funny I am laughing my butt off!!!


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## mksuwndr (Nov 24, 2008)

Wait a minute, you understand them taking 4%? they are basicly taking money out of your pocket. Do u understand that the wal marts, ect. already pay them to handle this. I will never pay to work, wich is basicly mwhat the 4% comes down too.

Worse now we have another company Spring Wise. We live in a city of 78,000 and and only the big lowballer in town will take a contract for either.

IMO if you sign up with these losers it is the same as playng craps in vegas, hope it doesnt snow.:salute:


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

chitownsnowedin;874154 said:


> I have worked with USM for 3 seasons prior to this one. Handle a handful of Best Buys and some banks.
> 
> I have not had some of the problems others have mentioned on here at all. I have been paid every last cent short of their stupid 4% fee. But you know what, that fee didn't jump up and surprise me. I knew it was there and I took accounts knowing to expect to get 4% less.
> 
> ...


We work for a couple of Nationals and the pricing is better than if i quoted it myself !! Lots of paperwork and reporting BUT we have been paid every time. I would probably never do a walmart because i dont want to carry the cost for 60 -90 days plus every price ive heard was stupid!
That being said i believe lots of people dont like nationals because they need you to operate like a real company. Lots of plow guys are old school and think "well i did the job i better get paid" when really the job is not done till all the required paper work is complete and submitted.
Im sure there are some legit cases of not getting paid because of miss communication. But im real sure lots of people dont get paid or get there payment dragged out because they screwed up the paper work.
While the contract is not something that turns me on i can see why and how some of lingo was added


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## johndeereguy (Oct 19, 2006)

I do work for a national company and it is way better pay then anything I could have gotten myself. Ya, a little more paperwork, take a few pictures, and have the manager sigh a piece of paper saying I was there, not to hard. I am now signed on to do one Wal Mart though USM, and trying to get another. The prices are what I QUOTED, not what they told me. No 4% reduction in pay, no 5% to get paid on time, I really wonder how many guy here have the contract for WALMART in their hands or are just upset someone else is doing the work. I am a profesional company, been in business for many years. I am not a dumb new guy trying to make a buck. I intend on making a PROFIT, and know my costs, and my production times. Like I said, I am very happy to be doing one, and hoping to find out tomorrow about the other one. I am ready to plow!!


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

mksuwndr;874505 said:


> Wait a minute, you understand them taking 4%? they are basically taking money out of your pocket. Do u understand that the Walmarts, ect. already pay them to handle this. I will never pay to work, which is basically what the 4% comes down too.


You could see that 4% in different ways.
1. In there contract i believe it says that they can take the 4 % after you hit 10,000 and 6 months of service. So you could plow all this season and never deal with it  
2. real companys have a number ! A % of sales that it cost you to get X amount of business.
If you look at how much advertising, sales brochures, estimate presentation, labor to do all this. Im sure some people spend more than 4% .
Usm probably thinks that since we cover all this cost then the contractor can pick some of it. Since all the contractor did was answer the phone call from USM


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

Wow the first four threads in the Commercial Snow Removal forum are regarding Walmart/USM in one way or another, then there are few more scattered down the first page, this is almost getting out of hand.

Alright, let me preface this by saying I have never done any work for USM. However, another guy I know in real life has; he said they were a bit of a pain, but they did always pay, and it was an okay deal for him.

There are countless threads here about how terrible USM is, don't work for them, they're ruining the industry, if you do any work for them you're stupid and should be shot, ect, ect. Now I realize they have probably screwed over a few people before, but have probably been fine to work with for many others. I also realize that they have probably gone in and lowballed and took what was a good contract from a hard working local guy/company. 

I think what happened here on plowsite is that a few guys who have had a bad experience with USM started bashing them and made them out to look like this evil monster. Everyone else jumped on the band wagon, and now guys here that had never even heard of USM are posting in the countless walmart threads about how bad USM is. Anyone that even hinted they were interested in working for USM was blasted and flammed and told they were an idiot. The whole thing just kind of spun out of control, and now anytime anyone mentions USM/Walmart, people start posting about how awful it is, everyone agrees, and the vicious circle begins again. 

Now if I lost a big account due to USM cutting my price is half, I'd be mad as hell too, but I'm just not buying into the fact that USM doesn't pay their subs and makes their lives miserable.

Just my two cents.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

procut;874665 said:


> Wow the first four threads in the Commercial Snow Removal forum are regarding Walmart/USM in one way or another, then there are few more scattered down the first page, this is almost getting out of hand.
> 
> Alright, let me preface this by saying I have never done any work for USM. However, another guy I know in real life has; he said they were a bit of a pain, but they did always pay, and it was an okay deal for him.
> 
> ...


Well said!


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

procut;874665 said:


> Wow the first four threads in the Commercial Snow Removal forum are regarding Walmart/USM in one way or another, then there are few more scattered down the first page, this is almost getting out of hand.
> 
> Alright, let me preface this by saying I have never done any work for USM. However, another guy I know in real life has; he said they were a bit of a pain, but they did always pay, and it was an okay deal for him.
> 
> ...


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

mksuwndr;874505 said:


> Wait a minute, you understand them taking 4%? they are basicly taking money out of your pocket. Do u understand that the wal marts, ect. already pay them to handle this. I will never pay to work, wich is basicly mwhat the 4% comes down too.
> 
> Worse now we have another company Spring Wise. We live in a city of 78,000 and and only the big lowballer in town will take a contract for either.
> 
> IMO if you sign up with these losers it is the same as playng craps in vegas, hope it doesnt snow.:salute:


I do alot of work for springwise and they are probably one of the best national companies out there. They pay well for all the work I do. I get paid within 20 days of sending in invoices and if I ever have a problem I have a contact that takes care of it for me. I am NO lowballer by any means. If I was I would have gotten the 150 bids I sent out this year. I was the middle bidder or 20 to 30% higher then the winning bidder. They went with the low bids in most of them. I would say 95% of them. These bids were going for less then what they were paying 2 and 3 years ago. Not all nationals are bad...But USM contract is scary.


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## cseutah (Nov 24, 2009)

Springwise is just Genesis Facility Maintenance with a new name. I took care of a Rite-Aid store a few years back, same bs couldnt find our paperwork sent it numerous times, finally gave up told them to keep their money and never call again.
when they came back with a new name they tried to play it as a new company but the girl i talked to said they where formerly Genesis.


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## chitownsnowedin (Feb 5, 2008)

I will answer one question otherwise others have discussed the others that have popped up.

How can someone do something at a profit that I could not? I hope that wasn't a serious question. We all have different cost structures. We also all should have locations we could service more easily than others.

Fact is, the 2 Wal-Marts I took were in strip centers where I already took care of most of the plaza. Both instances the other contract or timing involved was flexible enough to where I am able to serve both Wal-Mart and my other account with the same end loader.

So I don't have to pay for another loader and another pusher. I just have a couple extra loader, truck hours, shoveler hours, and salt. (neither site is a Super WalMart, I want no part of that headache). The combined revenue with the Wal-Mart and other account I now consider my best locations. Even with USM taking their 4% and whatever else.

But if for me was a standalone, not worth my time.


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## grf_1000 (Sep 14, 2009)

i know there is no way i could go the 60-90 days thing. our local super walmart spent a little over 100k for 08-09 season snow and ice. they break it down into 5 monthly payments. i'm not doing the store here, i just know the people that do, in nov.08 they plowed it 8 full pushes and kept plowing for over 45 full pushes on the season and close to 200" of snow fall. you would have to have a big bank roll to last 60 days without a check coming with them holding 50 grand of your money.


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## usedplowman (Nov 11, 2003)

I understand everyone has a different opinion, but I am dealing with USM just trying to keep a contract I got myself and held for 9 years. The manager at the store has already told them he wants our company to do the work. USM keeps making me go threw a thorough paper trail and in the end I give them the same rate I worked for last year and they said we are getting paid too much and need to come down 50%. How is this fair? It isn't so I figured I would curtail my figures with a eraser and pencil to meet them somewhere in the middle. I am still too high. I called Sat. to see if they had made a decision and they said they haven't because everyone in my area is too expensive and they are still seeking some one with a number that they think is right for a region they dont live in. This all sounds foolish to me. I suggest everyone that is still going threw the process with USM to hold your price and keep them from beating us down. If we take a stand now we can save the rates across the country. Other national maintenance companies pay alot better (from experience) then these guys so we all need to stick together on this. They took over this process too late in the year and are going to be slammed with snow here anytime. Mass confusion and bad service will drive people to complain to there local managers which will complain that they have no control over something that is important to have done well in order to get the customers in and out of the walmart safely and efficiently in bad weather. Stay strong and united Thanks


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

thats usm for ya.

i like the insurance cert 5 times in a month... i thought we were bad having to have to repeatedly send one in every month :/


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Tiflawn;874182 said:


> You sound like a politician. Most contractors would not sign a contract like USM has. Our attorney could not believe the garbage that was in there. We have to keep the price of our services at our level, not USM's. These national companies can bring the level of service and price of services down. The Walmarts that you did not take will have to be done by someone. If you could not make money on them how is someone else? Come to western NY and try to make money plowing for a middle man. These national companies do not have any experience in the Snow Industry. They are a market company. If I wanted to work for peanuts I would sit in a cage at the zoo and scratch my balls for the people. I do believe this mess that some pencil pusher created will be fun to watch. Have a great winter and remember when you walk in the snow and leave a funny trail you are probably a low baller. LOL


Oh man, now that is some funny sh*t......and very true.


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## chitownsnowedin (Feb 5, 2008)

My point in creating this thread has already been served. Others have also agreed that USM isn't so evil as some have stated. If you take their bid and know what you are doing you aren't going out of business in April like I have seen so many state in other threads.

Yes, you need some bankroll because you are going to carry large AR for a couple months. But jump through their hoops and you will be paid. At least in my experience.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

my two cents worth, just to make sure i understand correctly, 
if they decide to pay you
if you happen to have equipment in the area doing other more profitable jobs
if you decide to work for about half what other people would pay for the same job
if they don't lose your paperwork
if you don't mind working for significantly less then what the job is worth
if they decide not to find a problem with your paper work
if you pay them 5% for giving you your money within 30 days or wait 60+days
if you pay the 4% once you make over $10 000
if you follow every little detail in their stupid, longwinded, one sided contract
AND if USM decides not to use the plethera of loop holes not to screw you
...................... then they aren't a bad company to deal with, LMFAO


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

...............


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

buckwheat_la;874966 said:


> my two cents worth, just to make sure i understand correctly,
> if they decide to pay you
> if you happen to have equipment in the area doing other more profitable jobs
> if you decide to work for about half what other people would pay for the same job
> ...


great points, but i think you may be wasting your time reasoning with this guy.?..?



chitownsnowedin;874934 said:


> My point in creating this thread has already been served. Others have also agreed that USM isn't so evil as some have stated. If you take their bid and know what you are doing you aren't going out of business in April like I have seen so many state in other threads.
> 
> Yes, you need some bankroll because you are going to carry large AR for a couple months. But jump through their hoops and you will be paid. At least in my experience.


quit sticking up for USM.....your just making everyone think your name should be "saggy nuts".....and thats not good


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

i have always maintained if you are comfortable working for a company like USM and you feel they treat you well, then by all means, BUT, if you get screwed, then don't come back here crying about it, the way i figure it, if this many people have this much bad to say about one company, then you have been WARNED!!!


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

I don't want it to sound like I'm defending USM because I'm certainly not; I'm really not a fan of the big national companies.

However, I do think USM has gotten a bit of a bad rap on plowsite. Like I said in my previous post, I have never done work for USM, so I am really not in a position to say much. However, 95% of the guys on this site who are bashing USM have probably never never done any business with them either. Heck half of them probably never even heard of USM until the threads about them and Walmart started a few months ago, the only things they know about USM were what they read on this site, and they just jumped on the "I hate USM" bandwagon.

The guy who I know personally that did work for USM a few years ago said that there were some pointless phone calls and BS, but they did pay without much of a problem.

What I would like to hear are some opinions and stories from guys WHO HAVE *ACTUALLY *WORKED FOR USM IN THE PAST.

I'm not doubting that USM has screwed contractors over and does lowball some of there properties so bad that it would be impossible for nearly anyone to make a prof fit. What i am doubting is the talk that everyone who deos anything for them gets screwed over and ends up going out of business.

In the end, I think USM is what it is. If you can make money at what they're offering, go for, otherwise move on and try to find some other accounts.


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## cseutah (Nov 24, 2009)

I think alot of it comes from contractors such as myself who have invested a large amount of money into the equipment that a super center requires to maintain, and now are slapped in the face with half of what is required to do the job. yes there are companies with alot less overhead due to having less equipment. I personally have not worked for USM but was shocked after i had serviced several Wal-Mart locations for the last 8 to 10 years that the amount they where willing to pay me was 47 cents on the dollar compared to what i made before. I am just saying i don't think they have any concern for who is taking care of the contract as long as its low bid. If you talk to any contractor who has plowed snow for Wal-Mart they will tell you that they are a very demanding contract, they want you to plow all day and or night if the snow doesn't quit, you have alot of traffic to deal with at all times of the day its just too much of a risk to cut your price in half and then hope winter is less than usual so you can keep up with the demands and still turn a profit. Since after all is said and done isn't that what we're all in business for. If a guy wants to go broke he can do that sitting at home just as easy.


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## wmik55 (Oct 27, 2009)

we have been plowing our walmarts 5 years. we have given them what they have asked for or let's say demanded. they are very much service hogs. they can't ever seem to get enough. we have cleared lots constanly for 24 hours straight. i don't believe USM understands the level of service they require. most contractors don't either. so even their one sided contract aside, i don't know how i could possibly keep walmart satisfied and make any profit they are too spoiled. several times last year they would call for salting 3 times a day. we did this all at time and materials, they will be calling USM constantly to demand more service. i just can't see it working out for anybody.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Guys here's a hint, and mind you I've aquired this knowledge doing this for many years. If you don't like the price SAY NO, we here at PlowSite are NOT going to change the industry. As a group maybe we'd have a small impact, but like most groups we are pretty divergent. I do now and have in the past done work for nationals, some work is pretty decent, some of it really isn't worth starting the truck for. No one is holding a gun to any of us to take the work. If you can find a way to make it work for you then great, if not why complain so much? Just pass on it. This is business for all of us, USM, Brickmann, Allied and all the rest, they are in the clearinghouse business and it obviously works or they wouldn't be signing deals like Walmart/Lowes/Home Depot etc, they do it their way, we do it ours, but it's business........PLAIN AND SIMPLE. These guys didn't go after the big contracts with the thought that they'd be screwing the little guy first in their minds, they went there seeing dollar signs, just like we all do when we bid large site work independently.

BUT- thats me getting to the point where I think these USM/WALMART posts are getting ridiculous.

AND- This is business, and in alot of business there is this thing we call negotiation, try it with the nationals, they have room, don't let them BS you otherwise. Example, I was offered a large retail location by one of the big dogs this season, I told them their numbers didn't work for me and if they could move maybe we could sign the deal. Next email offered me 18% more across the board for the same site, this without getting angry, annoyed or any real effort on my part. If it's a nice location for you for whatever reason, geography, exposure, whatever always ask for more, you might be surprised with what they come back with, I was. I was also looking at some chain sites for the same company, after seeing this I did the same thing with those and got 22%. I passed on the bigger one as it's a little bit too far away for us, but, the point is get what you can, and you won't know if you turn your nose up just because of your pride.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

chitownsnowedin;874934 said:


> Yes, you need some bankroll because you are going to carry large AR for a couple months. But jump through their hoops and you will be paid. At least in my experience.


Why oh why oh why oh why oh why?

What is your business? I'm assuming plowing snow. Or do you own a bank on the side?

My business is NOT bankrolling another company, especially one who is working for the largest retailer in the world and has sales far greater than a crapload of countries. There is absolutely, positively NO reason at all that USM needs your money for 60 days when you can be dang sure they are getting paid in 30 and making interest on that while you're trying to pay your employees, utilities, put groceries on the table, etc, etc, etc.

Why don't you tell WalMart the next time you go in that you're not going to pay for your groceries for 60 days and I might even hold some back.

If you even have the slightest inkling that this is OK and normal business, you have got a lot to learn.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;875455 said:


> Why oh why oh why oh why oh why?
> 
> What is your business? I'm assuming plowing snow. Or do you own a bank on the side?
> 
> ...


100% agree, couldn't say it better myself. the best part about it, is that wal-mart typically paid me within 3 weeks, not even 30 days, so what's USM excuse, that's what i want to know, ya know? we worked for them since 1993, never had an issue with an invoice even reachign 30 days but now all of a sudden since USM got involved, now payment might be 45 to 60 days out they told me, **** that. We're not a bank, most of us are small contractors already struggling in the economy we're all in and we don't need companies like USM making it worse!


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## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

Well said!wesport


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

i agree that not all Nationals are bad, i deal with Oxford Property Services (formerly DDR), they like to take 2% off of my bill for "finders fee", so i called my rep up *****ed at him a little bit and he told me to just raise my price by 2%, this way, i got paid what i wanted and he still got to bring his money into his company...win win situation, but USM is not a win win situation, its they win, and hopefully you dont lose too much.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

sorry charles for the f bomb, got a little heated right there lol


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## cseutah (Nov 24, 2009)

the problem is not as simple as yes or no. I was informed on Tuesday that i could take the 47 cents on a dollar they offered me or they had someone else that would. the problem is that i have 4 CAT loaders with 14' pushers, 6 CAT loaders with buckets, 8 plow trucks, and 3 full sidewalk crews that at the begining of the season don't have work. i typically have all my contracts filled by September. If i mix the Wal-Mart equipment with the rest i will reduce hours for my guys. we plow with over 60 machines in the winter months and this was always an account that had its own equipment assigned to them.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

They are banking on you taking the bullet because of your equipment overhead. It is a win for them and and when your equipment is wore out and no money to replace them you can thank them and their starvation wages. Let the iron sit.


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## ngm50 (Nov 18, 2009)

Nobody has mentioned yet that, it doesn’t matter how much you up your contract for in order to cover the deductions that USM throws at you. 

It can take one slip/fall lawsuit and your profits from over 10 years could be out the window…their contract clearly states that you must provide defense coverage UP AND BEYOND YOUR INSURANCE COVERAGE.

That means if there is a major lawsuit with some fat injured woman, and they have tanked out your 2 million dollar policy with THEIR lawyers, YOU are going to have to come up with the cash to continue to fund the fight against the lawsuit or pay the settlement.

WAKE UP PEOPLE!! It doesn’t matter what your profit is!


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## chitownsnowedin (Feb 5, 2008)

ngm - Only a poorly structured and poorly planned business would suffer in this case. Yes I realize that is most, but it shouldn't be,


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

sounds like your a carefully planned company representative in disguise!


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

MahonLawnCare;876510 said:


> sounds like your a carefully planned company representative in disguise!


I've been wondering the same thing


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## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

*This is what your in for.*

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU HANDED IN YOUR PAPERWORK. I THINK I CANT FIND IT.


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

MahonLawnCare;876510 said:


> sounds like your a carefully planned company representative in disguise!


with being that new to the board and that many posts. I highly wouldn't doubt it. Alot of local guys here won't sign. I've dealt with nationals before and I investigated them first before I gave them any credit however if they have this bad of a rep. I wouldn't give them anything.

As said, yes you have to stay on top of the paperwork for companies like these and clock in and clock out and get signatures but as long as there is room for it fine, no problem. BUT when you go the extra mile for it but the pay better be on time. I can't say I didn't tell a national to stick it last year but I did and told I wasn't getting paid because they didn't recieve an invoice in "there time" but still got paid. I would just say if you going to do any work for a national then do not give them a bunch of credit up front if you want to take on a couple locations and see how they work fine. just don't screw yourself messing with multi acre lots.

To me the nationals are just fill ins because they always call late and pay late


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

chitownsnowedin;874934 said:


> My point in creating this thread has already been served. Others have also agreed that USM isn't so evil as some have stated. If you take their bid and know what you are doing you aren't going out of business in April like I have seen so many state in other threads.
> 
> Yes, you need some bankroll because you are going to carry large AR for a couple months. But jump through their hoops and you will be paid. At least in my experience.


i work with two nationals in Canada, they pay within 21 days, they send me work orders when they want work done, and in the winter when it snows, i document my days, and times, and that is it. Neither company has priced out new contractors since i have started, because the managers of the buisnesses i am doing are very happy with the work i am doing and the management companies are happy because their customers are happy. As far as i am concerned that is how ANY management company should opperate, so from my view, USM is the MOST evil company out there because it has made customer service, contractor quality, and jobsite safety, all second to their profit margin. Maybe someone can get killed this year at a Walmart because USM is trying to cut corners, or they can put all sorts of people out of buisness who have been doing excellent work for WM for many years. AND the thing i hate the most about the way companies like USM do buisness, is they want to be protected from any lawsuits/loss of income, but want you to work under their UNSAFE, and IMPRACTICAL guidlelines and take all the risk. WTF :realmad:


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

forestfireguy;875230 said:


> Guys here's a hint, and mind you I've aquired this knowledge doing this for many years. If you don't like the price SAY NO
> 
> BUT- thats me getting to the point where I think these USM/WALMART posts are getting ridiculous.
> 
> .


Heres a lil hint for you, DONT READ the Wallmart USM threads if they bother you so much.

IMO these threads are awesome, and enlighten many here who have no clue.
This industry is falling off a cliff, and it is thanks to company's that grab the cash, and chew up and spit out the guys who do the work.
If the word does not get out, how will anyone know when the phone rings for a great offer ?

Italiano has the right idea, let the Iron Sit. Its alot more fun to go broke with an Ice cold Bud, and Judge Judy on, then running up the hours on the equipment, payroll, maintenance, and fuel bills. You can sit on the couch and wait for the welfare check, or work countless hours for free, and then WAIT for your trivial check from USM, that MIGHT cover overhead.

I for one cant wait to see the mess at my local Wally Worlds this year, I will laugh every time I go by and see a loan pickup out there...

Happy Thanksgiving Fella's
Lets not forget our Troops out there getting shot at, working for less then USM wages today either. ussmileyflagussmileyflagussmileyflag


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

I agree Todd!!!......I am very thankful for these threads...It proves USM is scum!!! and has given me some insight and validity, to feelings I had after looking over one of their contracts


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

chitownsnowedin,



So, how long have you worked for USM?


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## kickin'a (Jan 12, 2009)

POINT!!! you don't have to work for any national company or anybody to make a judgement call on the contract you have in front of you from USM.

All you have to do is read the entire contract and if you can't understand then you shouldnt sign it, or if you have to read it more than once have your lawer interpit for you.

Usm may pay the people this yr just to prove to the nay sayers a point, BUT, when Wal-Mart starts to have trouble with the non professionals that shouldnt even be doing these size projects, I will be the first one in the court room to watch USM go down when Wal-Mart corp lawers swallow this company in one gulp and everyone that is working for them won't get paid! Because USM was neglegence in signing incompetant contractors at low ball price.

I do not have to work for someone to know what the contract reads! If they have that type of lingo in the contract then that makes one to wonder the real service they are trying to proviide to Wal-Mart.

It states in the USM contract you will assume non payment for bankruptcy, financial hardship, Etc. I have been told by our local super 24hr Wal-Mart that numbers are way down, SO in my book this consitutes financial hardship! IMO that gives them the right to with hold pmts.

My local manager even stated they can't believe they (USM) think the current contractors would sign this type of contract, besides doing it for 20g less than it should be going for.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Todd,

They don't bother me, but they are ridiculous.

You, we, whatever, will in the end do whats right for your business. AS YOU SHOULD. To not consider doing work for anyone based only on someones opinion, some of which are only opinions not based on actual expierience is silly. I can understand the bad feelings and complaints about what they do......really I can. But face it, there are companies out there who will work for USM and others, and as some here have said they aren't all bad. If the numbers don't work turn it down, if the contract language hangs you, turn it down..............Thats all I'm saying. We have guys here saying this that and the other thing about "the nationals" some of which is valid, some isn't.

And while they are making it harder for us to make a living, there are opinions here both ways on this, they aren't scum because they took the oppurtunity to make money, because they do it differently than we do, or because their contract sucks, or because their numbers suck. The bottom line to MOST of the people who aren't happy having worked with them is that they didn't know whatnthey were getting into, they didn't read the contract well or have it reviewed by their attorney, and for those people, it's not USMs fault. 

Those who did the work to spec and billed and submitted paperwork and didn't get paid are really the only ones who GOT screwed, the others who didn't research enough before signing screwed themselves.

Face it USM and others like them are here to stay, avoid them if you choose, embrace them if you choose, but do it because it's whats right for you and your business........Thats all I'm saying. 

And my last point is, many of the people involved in this business are not really educated professionals, and I don't mean degree or certicate toting education. I mean that many are lawn cutters, landscapers, excavators, mechanics or whatever else as their main focus of business, they often fail to use good business sense, and are we as an industry lose credibility because it's seen by the public as an "unprofessional" service. The green industry has fought the stereotype for years and years. Another thing here is that PS represents many many different types and styles of contractors, we have guys who only do snow, we have guys that only do it because they have to to keep others from grabbing clients from their core business and don't see is anything but a headache. We have guys who post here as though they're an authority on all things snow that plow a few driveways, and others who often stay out of this kind of thread who have volumes of good info to share. We are too divided to change the way things are in the market, public perception, image, and the nationals are all big issues. I don't know how to change it. And even of I thought I did there would be 20,000 other ideas................


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

buckwheat_la;876985 said:


> i work with two nationals in Canada, they pay within 21 days, they send me work orders when they want work done, and in the winter when it snows, i document my days, and times, and that is it. Neither company has priced out new contractors since i have started, because the managers of the buisnesses i am doing are very happy with the work i am doing and the management companies are happy because their customers are happy. As far as i am concerned that is how ANY management company should opperate, so from my view, USM is the MOST evil company out there because it has made customer service, contractor quality, and jobsite safety, all second to their profit margin. Maybe someone can get killed this year at a Walmart because USM is trying to cut corners, or they can put all sorts of people out of buisness who have been doing excellent work for WM for many years. AND the thing i hate the most about the way companies like USM do buisness, is they want to be protected from any lawsuits/loss of income, but want you to work under their UNSAFE, and IMPRACTICAL guidlelines and take all the risk. WTF :realmad:


bingo, well put my friend


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

kickin'a;877290 said:


> POINT!!! you don't have to work for any national company or anybody to make a judgement call on the contract you have in front of you from USM.
> 
> My local manager even stated they can't believe they (USM) think the current contractors would sign this type of contract, besides doing it for 20g less than it should be going for.


Here is the point

USM will find a contract who will do as good if not a better job for less money than the manager did. Why the manager has no clue what costs are. We have guys on this board plowing for 35-40 an hour who think they are making a killing and guys who tell us they would not get out of bed for less than 125 an hour. Guess what in every market prices are coming down, why competition. Many contractors sign contracts with property management companies they don't read or understand. CTMT has a contract that holds the contractor liable for any damage on their property. Mean if a water pipe in the bathroom breaks you can be named. Even if you are home in bed at the time. I was the first contract in 5 years to question it.

Prices were high 10 years ago, they are still high today. EVERY industry is getting lean, and seeing where they can cut corners. The businesses that control their costs and provide quality will survive and grow. Those who keep asking 125 an hour will continue to make 125 on less work.

I am in a market where you have home depot Menards Fleet Farm and Lowes. Guess what 1 pays 2-3 grand an acre more than the other three. One pays 2-3 grand less than the other three. Know what the lots on all three look exactly the same. Same quality of work similar service times So which is market price? figure one is paying 20 to 30 grand total more a season. For what?

We want to believe the one lot we have at 8 grand an acre is the market rate rather than the one we have at 4k an acre. Is market price the low, the high or the average?


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## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

With the cost of equipment, fuel, maintenance, insurance, ( both liability and equipment )
labor, repiars, and don't forget tax's, we the contractor should set the price. We know the true cost of services.IMO Prices are not to high. I believe they should go up . A snow plow contractor is a unique individual. We take a lot of everything and get to make a living at it.
I have been in business for 22 years, have seen them come and go, heard it all, and experienced the good and bad. My advice to anyone that bids on snow services, Get what you need to make a GOOD profit. Don't settle for their price. If they dictate the price, we lose.
There is not enough room in this industry for people who do not actually do the work. If you didn't get the job because you were not the lowest bidder, that's a good thing. Stick to your .

Remember, when you walk in the snow and leave a funny trail you are probably a low baller.

  
If I wanted to work for peanuts I would sit in a cage at the zoo and scratch my balls for the people.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

Silentroo;878373 said:


> Here is the point
> 
> USM will find a contract who will do as good if not a better job for less money than the manager did. Why the manager has no clue what costs are. We have guys on this board plowing for 35-40 an hour who think they are making a killing and guys who tell us they would not get out of bed for less than 125 an hour. Guess what in every market prices are coming down, why competition. Many contractors sign contracts with property management companies they don't read or understand. CTMT has a contract that holds the contractor liable for any damage on their property. Mean if a water pipe in the bathroom breaks you can be named. Even if you are home in bed at the time. I was the first contract in 5 years to question it.
> 
> ...


Thats some funny **** when I here guys subbing out sub work at 70's pricing and claiming there making a nice profit. Feel sorry for the 3rd world labor they are working for a bowl of rice and some fish heads.
So lets see this market your in, fleet and farm has an old tractor and a pickup truck they plow the lot with in house. Takes all day, but thats fine. Looks great 3 days after the suns out.
Menards has subs, they call for salt when they see fit, and only pay when they feel like it. I know more then one sub for menards trucking who lost there business do to no pay. But who cares, your gonna OWN your OWN business !!!!!! Ye haw
Lowes the national provider clearing house, 10 acres for 20k a year is more then enough. Cause some sap on plowsite said your gonna make money, yep. What happened to real hourly rates per acre, and real prices to spread salt ? Last guy who invented snow, and charged nothing per hour, and still made a profit only bankrupted like 3 companys. But who is counting.
If you can not lease a piece of equipment, pay overhead, cover a salt pile and the overhead for that, and still turn a profit, the price is to low. End of story. You can slice and dice a POS and dress it up all ya like, but at the end of the day, its no different then a teleprompter wearing lipstick who wont kiss ya before he [email protected] ya...


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

T-MAN;878875 said:


> its no different then a teleprompter wearing lipstick who wont kiss ya before he [email protected] ya...


That is funny sh!t right there I don't care who you are. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## cseutah (Nov 24, 2009)

look up Transfield Services Group they are a Multi Billion dollar Australian Company. They own USM, did a little research. We have a awesome corporate attorney and he said it would be pointless. they will run the way they want, and all you can do is see what happens. I just wish they would have been more straight forward, and let this out early enough to locate work for the equipment that would normally take care of them. To let everyone know right as the season is getting ready to start is the wrong way to show appreciation to anyone who has worked or done work for you. But i guess on the other hand if you know your going to try to cut expenses by a large amount, why not wait til the last minute when people (contractors) feel they cant turn away, pretty smart for a couple of multi billion dollar companies. i'd put a smiley hangin the bird but they don't have one.


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