# National Company's, Why?



## mike33 (Feb 15, 2006)

Why did most major corps go with national maintance companys? I work for 2 and tired of seeing all good accounts go with them. Im tired of bullet proof contracts in there favor and waiting 60 + days to get paid. Dont these companys realize they are paying more money?


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

Everyone is looking for a cheaper deal. It has been happening for centuries. How many textile mills are their in America today? How many shoe makers are still located in the USA? Why did people decide to buy foreign vehicles? 

It is the same with every business. When your profit margin go toward zero you too look for a cheaper way of doing business. 

Rant over!


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## mike33 (Feb 15, 2006)

How is company xyz saving money hiring a maintance company to service there snow and then they hire me. Wouldnt it be cheaper for xyz to hire me direct like they used too?


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

It's because its a cost they can controll from corporate vs. having individual managers hiring 100s of local contractors.


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## salopez (Apr 11, 2004)

its also easier for the them to manage. one check to write, one billing type to worry about accross the board. 

it sucks, but from their perspective it makes sense....until SHTF


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## mike33 (Feb 15, 2006)

Guess you guys are right they wouldnt be doing it if it wasent efficient. I always figured some ceo had his family to open a maintance company than just skim the money to that side.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

mike33;1618904 said:


> Why did most major corps go with national maintance companys? I work for 2 and tired of seeing all good accounts go with them. Im tired of bullet proof contracts in there favor and waiting 60 + days to get paid. Dont these companys realize they are paying more money?


Mike: Not verbally bustin on you but consider this>>> Does anyone hold a gun to your head and make you work for them. I would not do it. I have small accounts and do not bother with that national stuff.


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## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

It all comes down to you get what you pay for. and if some one wants to work for next to nothing wait 60+ days to get paid still have the same liability issues then there is something for everyone . everyone could stop the nationals if you didn't work for them or they couldn't get subs to work for them then it would go back to normal but untill the cost is more a lot more to the corps and service is way down on there list of priorities i guess then it will stay the same way .


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

mike33;1618904 said:


> Why did most major corps go with national maintance companys? I work for 2 and tired of seeing all good accounts go with them. Im tired of bullet proof contracts in there favor and waiting 60 + days to get paid. Dont these companys realize they are paying more money?


As long as you and others are willing to work for the nationals there will be nationals.

Those all ready in the business need to educate the new people from working for the nationals.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

mike33;1618904 said:


> Why did most major corps go with national maintance companys? I work for 2 and tired of seeing all good accounts go with them. Im tired of bullet proof contracts in there favor and waiting 60 + days to get paid. Dont these companys realize they are paying more money?


So you signed up to work for not one, but two nationals and now you are complaining about them. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Nationals exist because people like you will work for them. Not sure why you posted this.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

Banksy;1620646 said:


> So you signed up to work for not one, but two nationals and now you are complaining about them. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Nationals exist because people like you will work for them. Not sure why you posted this.


That about sums it up...


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I think most companies just don't want to be in the building maintenance business.I plowed a local Vitamin Shoppe for a couple years and they had in house property management division that handled all maintenance.This year they went with a national that handled all building maintenance.I guess there must have been a substantial savings to dissolve that division.They assured me that they wanted me to continue on but I didn't get contract even at the same price.I guess they saved some $$


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I too worked for Vitiamin Shoppe when they were in house they were great I went through 6 building maintenance guys and finally they told me how much they were going to pay me which was less than half of what I charged I sent them their 30 day cancellation notice 
Funny part they got fined for long grass it was only cut 1 a month and snow we were done with all our contract and they were never touched 
But they save money


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm going to say it again, after saying it thousands of times.

There are good Nationals to work for, and there are bad ones.

Nationals sometimes are better pricing than local market pricing.

Even if the pricing is 15% lower than what you would do the services for, that means that 15% goes to the Nationals dealing with each individual account and location where you don't have to, saving you time and office resources that you don't have to pay for.

And I've said this before.

We do work for a National. It's been good. It's not the best, but it fills voids in our business that otherwise we wouldn't or couldn't.


............


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

None of you guys should work for any nationals.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Longae29;1620961 said:


> None of you guys should work for any nationals.


Please enlighten me as to why.

.................


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

For me going to the bank every 15 days with one companies checks is too much work. I would hate for any of these guys to have to endure that. The checkin process for another almost took me 10 minutes for two days worth of salting at 4 stores. Ain't nobody got time for that. Another called on the 2nd to find out why they didn't have their invoice yet so they could get their billing done so we can get paid in a timely manner. Oh the harrassment who wants to deal with that?

They are evil you guys should stay away......


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## mike33 (Feb 15, 2006)

Banksy, 32VLD, Lettucema, you are 100% right. I have broad shoulders and will suck it up i shouldnt be working for them. My problem is im from a small area in far western Md there is only so many commercial sites and more plow trucks than you can think of. I wont mention the store but have 2 accounts under Lipinski and 1 under Cenova. The 2 with lipinski i have had for years with USM but there contract changed. 1 of these 2 stores due to elevation takes in 20% of my income out of 29 site due to its the winter wonder land for my area. So i drop it someone else will grab it what would everyone else do. The 1 account with cenova is small and first year. My rate for either isnt to bad but the wait for money and lack of common sence stinks. For example 1 with lipinski has a long entrance way where wind drifts snow in , there is no service catagory to just service the entrance where somewhere else i would do that and bill 0.5 hr. service. You have to expain sleet storms why your in there scraping more so there is no build up. My rep is pretty good and has repect for me servicing this but i have so much details to expalin compared to others i have green light to use my best judgement. So do you give it up and watch someone else do it or what? You always have the guy with the 25 year old clunker out there for 40.00 ready to take on the world of snow plowing.
Mike


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Longae29;1620997 said:


> For me going to the bank every 15 days with one companies checks is too much work. I would hate for any of these guys to have to endure that. The checkin process for another almost took me 10 minutes for two days worth of salting at 4 stores. Ain't nobody got time for that. Another called on the 2nd to find out why they didn't have their invoice yet so they could get their billing done so we can get paid in a timely manner. Oh the harrassment who wants to deal with that?
> 
> They are evil you guys should stay away......


So your saying, if you have 5 sites with one company and get one check every 15 days with all these sites, then it's more of a hassle?

One invoice, one check, that doesn't make sense to me.

People don't realize the time to that you save also by dealing with one rep for multiple sites. That's a lot of elbows to rub and a lot of clients to keep happy. On top of it, it's multiple contracts you have to write up, have people sign, etc.... So how many hours of that is worth it to you?

I'm playing devil's advocate here. There are many industries that use this same type of system for their services. It's not new to the business world as a whole.

Here's another thing to consider. How many of you work for property management companies locally? It's the same situation only at a local scale. Guys lowball the accounts and management companies mark up the bill to make their profit, but you never see the management companies getting bashed.

And then I do realize there are bad nationals and there are the good. I'm willing to bet most of the negativity comes from people who have dealt with the bad.

......


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

White Gardens;1621120 said:


> So your saying, if you have 5 sites with one company and get one check every 15 days with all these sites, then it's more of a hassle?
> 
> One invoice, one check, that doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> ...


Hell, the sarcasm in his post was so obvious it almost pushed my chair away from my desk. Read it again and I think you will see the sarcasm too.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Laszlo Almasi;1621192 said:


> Hell, the sarcasm in his post was so obvious it almost pushed my chair away from my desk. Read it again and I think you will see the sarcasm too.


Sometimes sarcasm is hard to "read" but it seemed pretty clear that what I was calling hassles and incoveniences really aren't.

Sometimes I wish our "non national" customers were as easy to deal with.

Guess we're just working for the right ones......that or we do to the fullest extent what the contract says.

Everybody always seems so worried about the liability. well then over service the hell out of it, do your paperwork/phone calls so they can pay you.....and you dont have to worry about liability. Salted 3 times for x snowfall? yep, on the third trip there was a snowflake left, and theres no number for a partial salt, so, we performed a full service.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Longae29;1621220 said:


> Sometimes sarcasm is hard to "read" but it seemed pretty clear that what I was calling hassles and incoveniences really aren't.
> 
> Sometimes I wish our "non national" customers were as easy to deal with.
> 
> ...


Ha! Ya, I guess I didn't see the sarcasm in it. My bad.

And ditto on everything else you said.

..........


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

White Gardens;1620944 said:


> We do work for a National. It's been good. It's not the best, but it fills voids in our business that otherwise we wouldn't or couldn't.
> 
> ............


When a business has more capacity then volume of business they need to cut back.

When the auto co's were not selling cars they kept over producing. End result was dealers were falling all over themselves to sell cars $500 below dealer "cost".

You taking work on from the nationals to "just fill your voids" is "just lowering the pricing" in your area.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

mike33;1621025 said:


> Banksy, 32VLD, Lettucema, you are 100% right. I have broad shoulders and will suck it up i shouldnt be working for them. My problem is im from a small area in far western Md there is only so many commercial sites and more plow trucks than you can think of.
> Mike



My first year I did not get much snow work.
Second year things got better. Enough to motivate me to continue.
Third year I had built up enough of a cusotmer base and the snow showed up. I did well.
Fourth year was the worse year. Very little snow.
Fifth year did best yet.

It takes time to build a route.

Snow is something that I do for many reasons. Thing is that we average 36.4" a year over 16 years. Highest year 94.9". Lowest year 4.3". Last year we had 4.5".

This shows that snow income can not be counted on. Yet people still buy snow equipment on credit or use money that will be needed for other things. Then they cave to the pressure to low ball.

There are many reasons why I do snow removal. Though I do not count on making money every season because the snow does not always show up.

If I can not afford to pay for a plow cash and not need to make that money back that season then I do not buy that plow.


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## mike33 (Feb 15, 2006)

32vld;1621472 said:


> When a business has more capacity then volume of business they need to cut back.
> 
> When the auto co's were not selling cars they kept over producing. End result was dealers were falling all over themselves to sell cars $500 below dealer "cost".
> 
> You taking work on from the nationals to "just fill your voids" is "just lowering the pricing" in your area.


What do you do in my case where 1 acount with a national service makes up 20% of my winter income due to its location of high elevation ?


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

32vld;1621472 said:


> You taking work on from the nationals to "just fill your voids" is "just lowering the pricing" in your area.


Ok, think of it this way instead.

At least in our area.....

It's such a race to the bottom that we loose about 60% of random bids we throw out each year. The only contracts we land for either snow or summer services are because of our reputation.

This "void" I speak of is just taking on larger accounts with a higher gross, but less profit margin to help pay employee salaries.

And......

The one snow removal account we do for this national is a great money maker. It's a seasonal contract which is few and far between in our transition zone that we reside.

On top of it, this account went for a seasonal price that was half of what we got this account for through our National when bid out by local contractors.

After three years of doing this account, these local contractors must have either taken a loss or were barely breaking even. While we are actually making money off of this account through a National.

So, was this national driving down the price. No. If anything you could consider them a hero for coming in and stabilizing the market value of these accounts. Is it still too low? Maybe, but at least they increased the value back up 100% over what it was locally.

The industry as a whole is hurting itself. Snow removal is now a high commodity, break even service to keep the gross looking good over the winter, while keeping employees busy. Around here, I seriously doubt anyone is making over 1% profit on snow services after all expenses are tallied for the winter.

To blame Nationals for hurting the industry is a big misguided mistake. If anything they are at least stabilizing the overall market value for commercial accounts.

................


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

White Gardens;1621676 said:


> The industry as a whole is hurting itself. Snow removal is now a high commodity, break even service to keep the gross looking good over the winter, while keeping employees busy. *Around here, I seriously doubt anyone is making over 1% profit on snow services after all expenses are tallied for the winter*.................


Who the he!! would even consider getting out of bed all winter for 1 percent - while assuming all liability for snow services.

That is just insane and to put it mildly "stupid".


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

goel;1621684 said:


> Who the he!! would even consider getting out of bed all winter for 1 percent - while assuming all liability for snow services.
> 
> That is just insane and to put it mildly "stupid".


This is more in regards to the larger companies who are fighting over the larger accounts.

The company as a whole is trying to maintain wages and and salaries while the business itself is only barely profiting from snow removal. The owners still get paid, the employees still get paid, equipment and fuel expense are paid, but there is probably not much left over after it's all said and done.

My opinion is that these companies only make a substantial profit 3 out of every 10 years where we would have above average snow fall. Then that's where the commodity of snow removal comes in. It's all about the volume of services.

I'm already thinking of another business venture to bring in other sources of income for myself personally in the winter. I'll keep the snow removal division as long as I have employees that need work in the winter. At that point I'll make incentives for them to take the responsibilities of the accounts in order to keep them, and keep work for themselves. I might not make any money at that point on snow removal but the value of the employees will be reaped during the summer season and all our maintenance accounts and installs.

.....................


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Your business tactics are killing the prices just as the nationals are.

You are cutting your own cash flow buy willing to work just to cover employee costs.

You are not then covering wear and tear and replacement costs. Or covering your time and costs to advertise, sales call, give estimates, close the deal, paper work.

Would it not be better to get double the money for plowing and bring people in as needed during the winter months. Employees can be laid off and called back in for the occasional day of work. Employees get paid vacation, and the occassional snow days to close the gap between their regular season pay and their unemployment benefit.

You need to be more creative to keep losing your good people over the winter season if you were to lay them off. A way that will not drive pricing down.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Why you have to be such an antagonist on this subject is beyond me.

In regards to covering employee expenses, that pertains more to the summer work we do for a national.

In regards to snow, we've turned down some contracts offered to us because the pricing was way too bad, but we take the better ones that are profitable. So yes, I do have ethics in regards to this business.

But, if it's not us taking the work, then someone else is. Someone will always take those accounts regardless.

And again, if you are blaming Nationals for market pricing on services, you are putting the blame on just one aspect of this business. And again, local contractors are hurting this industry worse than the Nationals are as far as I'm concerned.

I would love to post my financials just to prove that it isn't a money loosing proposition as you seem to believe. But I won't do that on a public forum.

If our tactics are hurting the industry, then I don't understand how we doubled our profits last year and the business made a crap load of money.

As for filling a void in our business..... Summer work for this national has helped increase our gross volume considerably. Our business model was strictly around landscaping installation and maintenance that didn't include mowing. Now, we need employees to help boost the production of the residential clients and the grounds maintenance we do for this national helps keep the employees busy, thus keeping them on, while upping our production in other aspects of our business.

And have you ever worked for a National, or are you just going off of what everyone on this site has to say negatively about Nationals?


......


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

32vld;1621879 said:


> Your business tactics are killing the prices just as the nationals are.
> 
> You are cutting your own cash flow buy willing to work just to cover employee costs.
> 
> ...


With all of this advice you must have quite a few employees depending on you to find work for them in the winter? If we could all get double our asking price for services I don't think we'd be having this discussion IMHO


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## snoway63 (Dec 29, 2009)

Just a little tidbit for us here on Long Island our area is alot different then most as companies are willing to pay good money for good service and after this last blizzard we have i bet alot of corporations are going to be dropping the nationals because they couldnt get there subs to plow any of there sites, for what they want to pay them, and i was getting calls all throughout that storm from nationals begging for help and yes i turned them all down because they wouldnt pay what the fair rate is here in NY In Suffolk county so hopefully they will all lose the big companies they failed to clear in a timely manner


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

jrs.landscaping;1621971 said:


> With all of this advice you must have quite a few employees depending on you to find work for them in the winter? If we could all get double our asking price for services I don't think we'd be having this discussion IMHO


People are always posting here on how the nationals are always offering contracts for half of what the job use to pay.

Then you ignore that if one has to take on work to keep people employed then there is something wrong with their business model.

Auto company's kept over producing. Drove down prices.

Eventually the auto company's got smart and closed plants because their capacity exceed market demands.

Even today many trade unions lay off their employees when there are not enough jobs.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

To blame Nationals for price drops is flawed logic IMO. Commercial accounts who are not run by Nationals are doing the same thing due to the economic crunch. Same goes with service, after Nemo both National and non National accounts were poorly taken care of. So why does the finger always point to the National? It should fall on the contractor who maintains the property. 
Also last time I checked the auto makers didn't get smart..... they got a handout to compensate for their poor business practices, if only they rest of us could roll the dice with our money and get a second chance after we pooch our businesses Thumbs Up


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

32vld;1622254 said:


> People are always posting here on how the nationals are always offering contracts for half of what the job use to pay.
> 
> Then you ignore that if one has to take on work to keep people employed then there is something wrong with their business model.


Who's to say that the pricing on some of these accounts weren't over inflated to begin with. Heck, in our situation, the nationals bump it back up to almost double for what it went for the year before locally.

I know how the game works, wine and dine the managers, get the accounts, and over the years you jack up the price because you've got the manager in your pocket.

And who's to say contractors weren't over-servicing those accounts to excess.

When it comes to business models, please enlighten me on how to keep employees physically working in the winter months when there is no other income coming in? How do you change a business model to keep them working in the winter then? God knows that pricing for summer services won't pay them over the winter anymore.

????


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

I have said all along that ppl working for the nationals are crazy. Everyone wants examples why the nationals are garbage and if anyone wants examples look up any of my earlier posts in other threads.

first off, managing who is doing the snow/ice removal ISNT taken care of by store level management anymore and exactly who is seeing the work done???? Store level management!!! NOT SOME IDIOTS IN A CORPORATE POSITION THATS MORE THAN LIKELY NOT EVEN IN THE SAME STATE AS THE WORK BEING PERFORMED!

I had a local pamida store, they went through several snow contractors and finally found me and THEY COULDNT HAVE BEEN MORE HAPPY WITH OUR WORK! Then shopko buys out pamida, they step in and get ferrandino and sons. They call me playing big shots saying they have the contract and send me an offer. I laughed at there offer and told them that was merely and insult...... It was roughly About a third of what my income was from that property before they stepped in. Now they have a rookie doing the lot and he told me he took there first offer and didnt even know they would negotiate. He is a good guy but holy crap he simply has no clue how to do snow removal and the lot looks like hell. STORE MANAGEMENT has been the ones UNHAPPY with the work being performed and has called corporate level, then corportate calls ferandino, then nothing gets done about it and its a vicious cycle. You guys still don't see the issue?????? Pretty plain to see unless your blinded by the little money there paying you. Im not going to fill someone elses bank accounts with dough while I use my equipment to do it all. thats on you guys who want to do that. I run my business and Im only going to fill my account with money. I would work a 9-5 job if I want to make someone else money.

Good business is done face to face between contractor and store level. That way when store level management sees that work is not up to par they can GET SOMEONE WHO WILL DO THE JOB TO THERE STANDARDS! With the middle man (nationals) this is never going to be this way anymore and that stinks........... There is NO NEED for these national companies and they will never go anywhere when there is always folks willing to step up and work for them. Truth be told, I wouldnt have worked for them if they did offer me more than I ever made at that store. Im just simply not a sell out. I do what I believe in and what makes sense and filling someone elses pockets with green for doing snow and ice removal for a company that doesnt even own a plow truck is the dumbest thing Ive ever heard of.........


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

jrs.landscaping;1622306 said:


> To blame Nationals for price drops is flawed logic IMO. Commercial accounts who are not run by Nationals are doing the same thing due to the economic crunch. Same goes with service, after Nemo both National and non National accounts were poorly taken care of. So why does the finger always point to the National? It should fall on the contractor who maintains the property.
> Also last time I checked the auto makers didn't get smart..... they got a handout to compensate for their poor business practices, if only they rest of us could roll the dice with our money and get a second chance after we pooch our businesses Thumbs Up


There will always be work out there for folks that do great work. That is what makes my business stand out. Its mostly word of mouth for advertising for snow removal, lawncare and landscaping. I have done spectacular work for years and have built one hell of a business and if a person is willing to do quallity work your going to have work PERIOD! This is where I don't care for the nationals.

you have a national come in and could care less who does it as long as there putting money in the bank............ There I pointed the finger. The problem is not THE CONTRACTOR as you stated in your post above. If it were still at store level management they would fire the sorry a$$ that couldnt perform the work and find someone who could but NOW THERE HANDS ARE TIED and they have to deal with it! So where is the problem??????? THE NATIONAL COMPANY that has no clue how the property looks and honestly could care less...........


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

snowcrazy;1622874 said:


> So where is the problem??????? THE NATIONAL COMPANY that has no clue how the property looks and honestly could care less...........


Again, a nice added assumption to this thread.

............


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

White Gardens;1623005 said:


> Again, a nice added assumption to this thread.
> 
> ............


If they in fact cared then the folks servicing the national properties would have been fired at the beginning of the season when store level management called griping.....

We will have to agree to disagree man. I understand it works for you and that is great. May as well be you as someone else right???? I understand that and can tell your no idiot. Things were always better IN MY OPINION without them for years and years and I got work hand over fist because I did GOOD work. Now there here and service on the lots that i serviced in earlier years are done by idiots that do not provide good service and if it were still managed at store level they would have gotten the punt a long time ago.. Problem is they do work for little to nothing and the nationals arent going to get rid of them and pay what the jobs are really worth. The funny thing is a lot of these store managers want me back but its not going to happen.... If I have to talk to a machine to perform the work I wont do it. Not good business. Face to face is good business and that is how every one of my accounts is this way..... This includes a few small strip malls, several banks, mcdonalds, long john silvers, pizza hut, tire shop, animal hospital, and a few churches. All of these were done with a contract THAT I DREW UP and every one of these managers of these places are on first name basis with me. Thats good business.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, Im not mad that these contracts are no longer mine. Those jobs were replaced with other commercial work which are franchises and they deal at STORE LEVEL and it couldnt be better. I perform service, they pay within 15days of end of the month billing and they LOVE us. Not dealing with someone in a different state and having to call and talk to some machine.....

I will pile money in my piggy bank.............. You guys can just keep stuffing money in theres. I didnt start my business to make someone else money. An old wise man once told me, "if you work for yourself you make yourself money...... If you work for someone else you make them money." havent looked back since the day that old fella told me that on a fishing trip.

White gardens, I do in fact see that your trying to fill a void for your employees in the winter and honestly that does in fact show some character on your part..... I can understand that. I have family that works for me. They are super good with financials and they stuff money in the bank all spring summer and fall and take off all winter and just help when it snows. I guess Im lucky in that since. Most times that wouldnt work out. So trying to keep them working is a non issue. Hell there glad when they are done for the mowing/landscaping season......


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## SnowPro93 (Oct 25, 2006)

All I have to say about this is I currently have 2 accounts with a national and have profited every season including last year. I came into this market the way it is and I've adapted to what this market has given me. If you cannot adapt you die. Everyone complains about late pay, etc. and say your struggling to make ends meet then you sirs are awful business men. You have to plan what your season may entail for at least the first 2 months. We set aside money all off season to pay for our winter costs and have yet to be in a spot where we are over extended.(108" this season)Its not the nationals that are the problem its snow contractors that have no business servicing these accounts and will cut the next guys nuts off to just get the work. Enough said.


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