# Mega multi residential driveway clearing ideas



## MBT

OK, let me set this up. this might not be as much a question but maybe some trial and error stories.
I was approached about the idea of low cost, very high volume residential driveway clearing project. The idea being that there are several residential developments in my area that have no HOA, but are very densely packed homes, that could possibly be interested in snow removal on many of the driveways and sidewalks if the cost was low enough. the reason i was approached was the idea of LOW COST, they are looking for $15 or less per driveway per push. no salting.

These are like 200+ homes packed together on 1/8 acre and smaller lots . The driveways are 40 feet or less apart, and about 40 feet long 16 feet wide. It is the definition of cookie cutter homes. these are not townhouses.

This is not something i would do this year, but with some planning might be a future project. Has anyone out there tried to pull off a series of driveways with a couple of skid steers, possibly a tractor or 2 with a blower, to tackle a residential project to clear 100+ homes at super low rates. looking at the math, as long as it could be pulled off in 4 hours or less it might actually be doable at $15 per driveway with 2 skiddies with some Kage blades or similiar.

There is nothing like this in our area that is not a bunch of townhouses that are controlled by an HOA (which pays seasonal monthly payments), everyone in these developments are on their own for snow removal. So, i would have to either get everyone to pay up front for the season, or manage and track payments, this is not my concern. it is the labor and time requirements, looking to see if anyone has had some experience with this?


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## Jeep_thing

We live in a townhome rental community with 200 units, driveways the length of 2 cars. Straight blade plow, back drag once, 2 swipes on each side onto the grass. 2 minutes per driveway max. On to the neighbor. Granted your drives are larger.


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## BUFF

This is the only way to do that volume in the time you're talking about.


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## SnoFarmer

What aboot a black blade?


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## BUFF

SnoFarmer said:


> What aboot a black blade?


That wood be an option providing there another peace of equip to deal with what the BB pulled oot. Udder wize you'd have to do a lot of jockeying around.


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## cjames808

Seems too cheap. Is it 100 or 200 drives? BIG Difference. 

This is one of those what ever you think it will be double. 

Skids bill out for $75-150/hour. We bill $110 for ours. 
So 2 loaders at 8 hrs each. 
$1760

Then the city plows come through, and everyone moves their cars. Clean up. 8-12 more hours. 
$1100

$2860 for 100 drives without salt or ground crew. $28.60 per drive. Seems low enough. Too low.


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## ktfbgb

If they aren't in a HOA you are never going to get all them to sign up. I would think 25% of the homes would be asking a lot. Billing is going to be a logistical nightmare, and undercutting prices like that are going to make you the target of the other companies around. 

Charging super low prices like that would be more acceptable in the the HOA's as everyone would get done, instead of one, skip 4, one, skip two etc. plus the HOA's have enforceable parking rules so they can work with you on the timing of when everyone has to have the second space cleared for you to come back through etc.


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## MBT

so out of curiosity, I asked the guy that brought it up to me about the HOA, his reply, "There is an HOA, but it does not deal with Snow removal of any kind, HOA is for mowing and cleaning the pond area". see the picture below. So before you read further, Know that i Enjoy solving the problems that this bring up, how else can you beat the competition if your not innovating.

that Said, I think it would be the only possibility to pull it off through an HOA deal, the only way this works is with density. it is an all or nothing gig. for what ever reason the idea still interests me. You get 10 man hours to clear 200 homes......
i will probably keep kicking it around till October 2017 when i start to panic about the upcoming season and forget all about it.


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## darryl g

Keep in mind you have to cover the administratve costs of invoicing, collections, banking, customer relations, etc. Why is that not a concern?


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## SnoFarmer

No Ya don't.
Kiss.

Seasional,
Prepay,
The HOA or the clients Can pay all of it up front or opt for a 2 payment option.

But waite,
We can do this all winter....
So sigen up today and get unlimited plowing 2" trigger between November and March.
( it always snows in April for a end of the season bounous)
A $xxx per push option is available.
Salt extra.
Shoveling is available ,just pay shipping and handeling.

I jest a littel.
.there are options to all of the paper work or chasing money.


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer said:


> What aboot a black blade?


What aboot a red blade?

White blade?


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## Mark Oomkes

cjames808 said:


> Seems too cheap. Is it 100 or 200 drives? BIG Difference.
> 
> This is one of those what ever you think it will be double.
> 
> Skids bill out for $75-150/hour. We bill $110 for ours.
> So 2 loaders at 8 hrs each.
> $1760
> 
> Then the city plows come through, and everyone moves their cars. Clean up. 8-12 more hours.
> $1100
> 
> $2860 for 100 drives without salt or ground crew. $28.60 per drive. Seems low enough. Too low.


Depends on where you are.

Why would it take 16 hours? That's way too slow.

8-12 hours to clean up approaches?

Your math is oof.

It can be done and is done on a regular basis. At lower prices than $15\driveway.


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## Mark Oomkes

http://www.plowsite.com/threads/switching-to-blowing-service.110685/

Here's something to do while considering your questions.

Lose the skidsteer idea along with the Kage. There is only way to do this in the most efficient way possible.


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## Mark Oomkes

darryl g said:


> Keep in mind you have to cover the administratve costs of invoicing, collections, banking, customer relations, etc. Why is that not a concern?


Prepay for the season. No collections needed. No pay, no plowing. How much does making a deposit cost? Don't you do that anyways? Customer relations will increase, but that would be covered in overhead.


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## cjames808

Mark Oomkes said:


> Depends on where you are.
> 
> Why would it take 16 hours? That's way too slow.
> 
> 8-12 hours to clean up approaches?
> 
> Your math is oof.
> 
> It can be done and is done on a regular basis. At lower prices than $15\driveway.


I guess. If I run a loader all day. Better bring in $$$$ after costs. Not $$$s.


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## Mark Oomkes

cjames808 said:


> I guess. If I run a loader all day. Better bring in $$$$ after costs. Not $$$s.


Lots of contractors are doing it for less than your guesses. And profit margins are just fine.

You should tell the guys in Canada that are doing 3,000+ or even 13,000+ driveways that they don't know what they're doing.


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## boutch

I bet you Neige could do 200 driveways in 5-6 hrs with one 100 HP tractor and inverted blower. But with that many driveway you need a good back up, where a truck wont cut it. some parts of Montreal the competition is so stiff constract are as low as 200$ for the season.


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## Herm Witte

MBT said:


> OK, let me set this up. this might not be as much a question but maybe some trial and error stories.
> I was approached about the idea of low cost, very high volume residential driveway clearing project. The idea being that there are several residential developments in my area that have no HOA, but are very densely packed homes, that could possibly be interested in snow removal on many of the driveways and sidewalks if the cost was low enough. the reason i was approached was the idea of LOW COST, they are looking for $15 or less per driveway per push. no salting.
> 
> These are like 200+ homes packed together on 1/8 acre and smaller lots . The driveways are 40 feet or less apart, and about 40 feet long 16 feet wide. It is the definition of cookie cutter homes. these are not townhouses.
> 
> This is not something i would do this year, but with some planning might be a future project. Has anyone out there tried to pull off a series of driveways with a couple of skid steers, possibly a tractor or 2 with a blower, to tackle a residential project to clear 100+ homes at super low rates. looking at the math, as long as it could be pulled off in 4 hours or less it might actually be doable at $15 per driveway with 2 skiddies with some Kage blades or similiar.
> 
> There is nothing like this in our area that is not a bunch of townhouses that are controlled by an HOA (which pays seasonal monthly payments), everyone in these developments are on their own for snow removal. So, i would have to either get everyone to pay up front for the season, or manage and track payments, this is not my concern. it is the labor and time requirements, looking to see if anyone has had some experience with this?


Your scenario is no different than any of us plowing residentials. We contract, we plow, we bill, we take phone calls, we deposit checks. We have hi volume, low cost operators in our market as well. All fine until we get a storm, then they have a high number of dissatisfied customers. Also be prepared for a high client turnover rate in your scenario. You will do the least amount of damage to property with a tractor with an inverted blower set up. We've used them all, trucks with back blades, skidsteers, toolcat, and inverted blowers on tractors. Our family has been at it since 1957.


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## cjames808

I guess we are circling back to:

One guy with 100 $10 drives.<- busy bee. 

And 

One guy with 10 $100 drives.<- more sleep nicer gear. 


Don't get me wrong. That type of job would definitely be for the experienced operator with the tractor and blowers. And hoping everyone moves their 1-200 cars in a timely fashion for the work so you can get it done in one pass.


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## Mark Oomkes

You're smoking the good stuff if you think you could get 10 drives this size at $100.

Why do cars have to be moved? Not my problem they don't have an empty driveway.


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## cjames808

We don't have those laws here in WI!

And he's in Northern IL not Canada or Africa.

I meant in general, for a small operator, go for lower volume high margin jobs rather that take on a large scale gig with specialized big dollar equipment. 

Picture 2am with 1-2 cars in each drive and 8" of snow. 
Your gonna drive through once? Then call it done? Then theyll all move their cars and ***** about the mess. Especially if they prepaid for a seasonal contract.

Better have a new plan for that blower next year.


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## Mark Oomkes

Whether you say you can....or can't, you're right.


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## boutch

cjames808 said:


> We don't have those laws here in WI!
> 
> And he's in Northern IL not Canada or Africa.
> 
> I meant in general, for a small operator, go for lower volume high margin jobs rather that take on a large scale gig with specialized big dollar equipment.
> 
> Picture 2am with 1-2 cars in each drive and 8" of snow.
> Your gonna drive through once? Then call it done? Then theyll all move their cars and ***** about the mess. Especially if they prepaid for a seasonal contract.
> 
> Better have a new plan for that blower next year.


You blow it all at 2 am. Then come back 9-10 am when everyone are out to work. I go back anyway to clean up the curb the same day or the next day depending on when it stop snowing. You put it in you contract that you don't wait for them to mover their cars but you will come back the next day after 9 am to clean up. Some will clean up them self some won't.

There is not much room for a skid steer to put the snow. With a tractor he could expend is area until he pick up customer and them focus on condensing is route and add equipment. I Google the location. There is probably close to 1000 houses he could cover with a tractor.


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## SnoFarmer

If this is a real "hoa" no vehicles will be parked outside over night.
Unless it is a house guest . And for a limited time.

LOL


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## SnoFarmer

I don't go back to my seasionals,

I'm not responsibel for the cars or obstructions the home owner has left in the drive.

I plow, I move on.
if you don't put the garbage out does the garbGe man come back latter to see if you have.


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## WIPensFan

SnoFarmer said:


> I don't go back to my seasionals,
> 
> I'm not responsibel for the cars or obstructions the home owner has left in the drive.
> 
> I plow, I move on.
> if you don't put the garbage out does the garbGe man come back latter to see if you have.


Speaking of putting the garbage out, how does that work in these high density areas? PITA when it's garbage day. Every drive has bins sitting at the end of it? How about newspapers? They are thrown in the drives here. I used to have to get out at every resi that got a paper and put it to the side or throw it to the front door.


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## JustJeff

MBT said:


> so out of curiosity, I asked the guy that brought it up to me about the HOA, his reply, "There is an HOA, but it does not deal with Snow removal of any kind, HOA is for mowing and cleaning the pond area". see the picture below. So before you read further, Know that i Enjoy solving the problems that this bring up, how else can you beat the competition if your not innovating.
> 
> that Said, I think it would be the only possibility to pull it off through an HOA deal, the only way this works is with density. it is an all or nothing gig. for what ever reason the idea still interests me. You get 10 man hours to clear 200 homes......
> i will probably keep kicking it around till October 2017 when i start to panic about the upcoming season and forget all about it.
> View attachment 169460


Where is this? I'm from the North side like you, and this looks like a Del Webb community to me.


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## JustJeff

cjames808 said:


> We don't have those laws here in WI!
> 
> And he's in Northern IL not Canada or Africa.
> 
> I meant in general, for a small operator, go for lower volume high margin jobs rather that take on a large scale gig with specialized big dollar equipment.
> 
> Picture 2am with 1-2 cars in each drive and 8" of snow.
> Your gonna drive through once? Then call it done? Then theyll all move their cars and ***** about the mess. Especially if they prepaid for a seasonal contract.
> 
> Better have a new plan for that blower next year.


What WI laws are you talking about? Did I miss something? And what does being in Northern IL have to do with comparing it to Canada or Africa? And it should be stipulated in the contract that if cars are in the driveway, only the open area will be cleaned if safe to do so. How hard is this to understand?


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## Mark Oomkes

WIPensFan said:


> Speaking of putting the garbage out, how does that work in these high density areas? PITA when it's garbage day. Every drive has bins sitting at the end of it? How about newspapers? They are thrown in the drives here. I used to have to get out at every resi that got a paper and put it to the side or throw it to the front door.


I had one last year that had 4 dumpster thingies and some boxes lined up across their driveway.

Took a pic and kept going.

Garbage day sucks.

Newspapers? Who gets a paper newspaper anymore? We haven't had that issue, but I'm thinking a newspaper through a 100HP blower is going to lose. It's a driveway, not a newspaper holder. Can I put all my snow or grass clippings in the mail or paper box?


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## Mr.Markus

I don't do this low cost driveway stuff but if I were to, all my customers would get the same form letter addressing these concerns at the beginning of the season. Help us help you...how hard is that?


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## FredG

Besides not having a inverted for work intended I'm passing on any comments, I will say this if a car is in the way I'm not going back. With the big 2 apt complex I do I go back by the hour to clean parking spots. Granted these are per trip. If they wanted seasonal I would charge more for the extra trips anyways in my bid. It takes about 2hrs to clear where the cars were both locations.


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## SnoFarmer

WIPensFan said:


> Speaking of putting the garbage out, how does that work in these high density areas? PITA when it's garbage day. Every drive has bins sitting at the end of it? How about newspapers? They are thrown in the drives here. I used to have to get out at every resi that got a paper and put it to the side or throw it to the front door.


I'll move the garbage can if its in the way or go around iT.

Around here they put the paper in a paper box or at the doorstep.


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## WIPensFan

Mark Oomkes said:


> I had one last year that had 4 dumpster thingies and some boxes lined up across their driveway.
> 
> Took a pic and kept going.
> 
> Garbage day sucks.
> 
> Newspapers? Who gets a paper newspaper anymore? We haven't had that issue, but I'm thinking a newspaper through a 100HP blower is going to lose. It's a driveway, not a newspaper holder. Can I put all my snow or grass clippings in the mail or paper box?


Yeah, I wish every neighborhood had paper boxes next to the mailbox or got them delivered to the front door like in the old days. I was thinking about the customer not getting their paper and complaining, not so much the damage or shredding ability of the 100 hp blower. 
About a month ago we had a 5" event that started at about 4:30pm( dark outside )and lasted till 3:00am next morning. So I looked outside my front window at home at 6:30pm and noticed a lump of something sitting in the middle of my driveway covered with snow. I looked around to other drives and I could see and noticed the same lump, so I knew something was dropped in everyones drive, but you could barely see it. Went out to find a phone book delivered in a plastic bag sometime right after it began to snow. When I got home from plowing the next morning my wife tells me the neighbor across the street and down a couple houses discovered his with his single stage snow blower! I'm guessing that happened a lot that morning. Really poor timing on the phone book delivery.


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## andersman02

I dont see any problem with this as long as you can bill out to 1 person, not 100. $15/100 drives. Assuming you can get this done in 6 hours, thats 3.5 min per drive, youd be making some pretty good $$. Even after going cleaning up the city berm.... Heck even if it took you 7 minutes/drive youd still be at $125/hour. Make it clear it is NOT your responsibility to clearing around parked cars. Now if you had to bill out to each homeowner each month for services rendered, then yes the price just went up. But for a seasonal 1 or 2 lump payment... I say go for it. Even for a per push price it might be worth it.


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## Mark Oomkes

andersman02 said:


> I dont see any problem with this as long as you can bill out to 1 person, not 100. $15/100 drives. Assuming you can get this done in 6 hours, thats 3.5 min per drive, youd be making some pretty good $$. Even after going cleaning up the city berm.... Heck even if it took you 7 minutes/drive youd still be at $125/hour. Make it clear it is NOT your responsibility to clearing around parked cars. Now if you had to bill out to each homeowner each month for services rendered, then yes the price just went up. But for a seasonal 1 or 2 lump payment... I say go for it. Even for a per push price it might be worth it.


Oh great, now you went and done the math.....and it makes sense.

Why did you screw this idea up with hard numbers?


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## FredG

Yes but can you score them for $15.00. Would not most guys be at $10.00 to $13.00. I personally never done one, Just going from what I hear.


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## Mark Oomkes

8-10 years ago one of the trade rags had a story aboot some company in Cleveland's burbs that were doing driveways for $xxx.xx. Someone linked the article and there was a long discussion aboot it here. A bunch of :terribletowel:said it couldn't be done for those prices blah, blah, blah. 

I ran the numbers, proved that they were making at least $110\hour\truck and still these :terribletowel:kept on saying it couldn't be done. Showed them six ways from Sunday how they could and did make money doing these drives at such a low cost and still the :terribletowel:said they were losing money, etc. I really don't remember the specific details, but the story was very in depth, how many drives per truck, route length, seasonal price, distance traveled, etc. 

I finally gave up. All these :terribletowel:ic naysayers that say it's impossible to do a drive for $10-$12 a trip and make money either don't understand basic math or are just stupid.


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## andersman02

Mark Oomkes said:


> 8-10 years ago one of the trade rags had a story aboot some company in Cleveland's burbs that were doing driveways for $xxx.xx. Someone linked the article and there was a long discussion aboot it here. A bunch of :terribletowel:said it couldn't be done for those prices blah, blah, blah.
> 
> I ran the numbers, proved that they were making at least $110\hour\truck and still these :terribletowel:kept on saying it couldn't be done. Showed them six ways from Sunday how they could and did make money doing these drives at such a low cost and still the :terribletowel:said they were losing money, etc. I really don't remember the specific details, but the story was very in depth, how many drives per truck, route length, seasonal price, distance traveled, etc.
> 
> I finally gave up. All these :terribletowel:ic naysayers that say it's impossible to do a drive for $10-$12 a trip and make money either don't understand basic math or are just stupid.


Right. Personally we do 0 HOA. Have no interest in it. But in the right scenario, heck yeah you can make money at $10/drive. All that matters in the final $/hour you make. weather its 4 drives/ hour @35/ ea or 14/ hour at $10. Same final $$. Now personally, Id rather do the 4/hour deal. But thats just me


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## Philbilly2

JustJeff said:


> Where is this? I'm from the North side like you, and this looks like a Del Webb community to me.


I believe that it is in Cortland. (south of sycamore) looks like the subdivision to the east of Somonauk blacktop


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## cjames808

Everyone's right. I'm glad the OP got some real world answers out of the discussion.

We do smaller Coa and Hoa and I was only bringing up some of the hurdles we come across. Sometimes a pain Definately.

OP can use the information to make vital decisions, although he may have some bidding competition next year as soon as this place is zeroed in. Lol. 

A little banter never hurts!


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## andersman02

yeah, good replies so far. Sounds like a decent opportunity. Personally I dont see this working as, for us, theyd have to band together for 1 person to only one that communicates with us. 1 bill, 1 person, 1 communication vector. In a typical HOA i feel this is typical but for one that may not be 100%.... just not sure. 

Essentially if all I had to do was send out 1 bill, those prices could potentially work with minimal headaches. The more aspirin I need the less likely I would be to consider it.


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## Mark Oomkes

I had my one brilliant thought for the year and thought of a way to search for the old thread I mentioned earlier. And it actually worked. So I'm screwed for the rest of the year. Some good reading in that thread. Also before I took Buzz's People Skills and Tinfoil Helmet Origamy correspondence course.

I'll bring it back to the top, but here's the link too\two\to\2:

http://www.plowsite.com/threads/gies-snow-magazine-cover.41959/


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## ktfbgb

Mark Oomkes said:


> I had my one brilliant thought for the year and thought of a way to search for the old thread I mentioned earlier. And it actually worked. So I'm screwed for the rest of the year. Some good reading in that thread. Also before I took Buzz's People Skills and Tinfoil Helmet Origamy correspondence course.
> 
> I'll bring it back to the top, but here's the link too\two\to\2:
> 
> http://www.plowsite.com/threads/gies-snow-magazine-cover.41959/


Not only was it a good thought but got your one good deed out of the way for the year lol


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## Mark Oomkes

ktfbgb said:


> Not only was it a good thought but got your one good deed out of the way for the year lol


So now I can just drink the rest of the year away like a union monkey?


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## ktfbgb

Mark Oomkes said:


> So now I can just drink the rest of the year away like a union monkey?


Well not if you want to maintain a productive business. Union monkeys can drink the year away because all they are responsible for is punching a clockThumbs Up


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## Philbilly2

ktfbgb said:


> Well not if you want to maintain a productive business. Union monkeys can drink the year away because all they are responsible for is punching a clockThumbs Up


Easy...


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## ktfbgb

Just seeing if I can rile up Defcon on a Friday. Seems like he has it set up to notify him any time someone types in Union Monkey lol.


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## SnoFarmer

ktfbgb said:


> Just seeing if I can rile up Defcon on a Friday. Seems like he has it set up to notify him any time someone types in Union Monkey lol.


 if that is your intent, then there will be no open threads left to post in.


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## Mark Oomkes

ktfbgb said:


> Well not if you want to maintain a productive business. Union monkeys can drink the year away because all they are responsible for is punching a clockThumbs Up


Just wait until Defcon sees this. LMAO


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## Philbilly2

Mark,

in that thread that you posted above, in 2007 you were talking about using back blades on pickups. Did you have the inverted blowers back then? seems very possible with back blades, but almost easy with blowers no?


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## ktfbgb

SnoFarmer said:


> if that is your intent, then there will be no open threads left to post in.





Mark Oomkes said:


> Just wait until Defcon sees this. LMAO


Ok ok. I said it. He can post a retaliatory comment and I'll like it so he knows I saw it. And then I'll leave it alone, so as not to get the OP's thread shut down. Plus he knows that I don't actually think he's useless or other union members for that matter I just don't agree with Unions is allThumbs Up


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> So now I can just drink the rest of the year away like a union monkey?


Yes..Get all your biz **** done in the morning, Have lunch and have at it this time of year. Back off in the summer and continue in 2018. LOL O its Friday about a hour away from my first beer.


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## Philbilly2

FredG said:


> Yes..Get all your biz **** done in the morning, Have lunch and have at it this time of year. Back off in the summer and continue in 2018. LOL O its Friday about a hour away from my first beer.


Hour away??? Heck ive got two down already. But I am a union monkey...


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## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> Mark,
> 
> in that thread that you posted above, in 2007 you were talking about using back blades on pickups. Did you have the inverted blowers back then? seems very possible with back blades, but almost easy with blowers no?


Shirley would be nice to keep these threads separate. I know Michael, you don't have to PM me, but there was no reason to lock it.

We didn't have the inverted blowers. Very likely Neige and others up in Kannada did. If I can remember, I think ag tractors for plowing were just starting to catch on during that time frame.

It can be done with back blades and inverted blowers make it even easier, correct.


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> Ok ok. I said it. He can post a retaliatory comment and I'll like it so he knows I saw it. And then I'll leave it alone, so as not to get the OP's thread shut down. Plus he knows that I don't actually think he's useless or other union members for that matter I just don't agree with Unions is allThumbs Up


LOL The only thing I agree about unions is that pension that hits my account once a month.


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer said:


> why? you have to recoup your investment.
> a $100 lot is a $100 lot.
> you do, do this to make a profit?


You are correct, you do have to recoup your investment. And those with brains understand that.

Unfortunately, there are people with bigger egos than brains who don't think that way. They'll price a lot based on the production rate of a loader instead of what they were doing it based on a truck.

Comprende?


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## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> Hour away??? Heck ive got two down already. But I am a union monkey...


Easy..I'm a retired union monkey, Easy on the beer to I'm older than you, Takes me a little longer now LOL  :waving:


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes said:


> You are correct, you do have to recoup your investment. And those with brains understand that.
> 
> Unfortunately, there are people with bigger egos than brains who don't think that way. They'll price a lot based on the production rate of a loader instead of what they were doing it based on a truck.
> 
> Comprende?


yes, i get et.
now, you have greater over head, more capacity, so you lower the price of the lot.
Sounds like the race to the bottom?

When did making more money, become the wrong thing to do?

why devalue a lot just because your productivity went up?
now you have to service more accounts just to make what ya did before you invested in your business.

counter productive?


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## ktfbgb

So I'm not arguing against any of the opinions on here. There are guys on here that have been doing this since I was in diapers, well almost anyway. And obviously creating a niche is generally accepted as being one way to lock in a market. I have also seen the math posted, and numbers don't lie. It appears that it can be done, and like mark said both answers are right. If you believe it can't be done then you will never pull it off, if you believe it can then you probably can.

But it's contrary to what I've learned about business in general, at least in the service industry. Meaning contractors, snow removal, lawn guys etc. I was taught that you try to continually improve efficiency, by gaining knowledge and also by upgrading equipment. You do this so that you can generate more profits. Take something that used to take an hour and improve efficiency so that you can do it in 20 min., charge the same price, and do three now in an hour instead of one. That has always been the goal for me. Just because I spent years gaining knowledge and spending big money on equipment to do it faster doesn't mean I should charge less now because I'm more efficient.

For example if it used to take me three days to paint the exterior of a house by hand, and I was charging prices that were widely accepted as normal for an exterior repaint, then I go spend $1500 on a graco airless sprayer, and now I can do the same job in one day. Now I can do three houses in the time it took to do one. Just because I'm more efficient now it doesn't mean that I should lower my prices to paint three houses for the same price it used to be for one house.


----------



## SnoFarmer

operator fatigue, breaks, breakdowns, replacing sheep pins. phone calls. traffic
all point to the fact that productivity cant be maintained all day/night/ like et can on paper.


----------



## SnoFarmer

ktfbgb said:


> .
> 
> For example if it used to take me three days to paint the exterior of a house by hand, and I was charging prices that were widely accepted as normal for an exterior repaint, then I go spend $1500 on a graco airless sprayer, and now I can do the same job in one day. Now I can do three houses in the time it took to do one. Just because I'm more efficient now it doesn't mean that I should lower my prices to paint three houses for the same price it used to be for one house.


I agree...

but they call et competition.

more overhead = lower prices......


----------



## Philbilly2

ktfbgb said:


> But it's contrary to what I've learned about business in general, at least in the service industry. Meaning contractors, snow removal, lawn guys etc. I was taught that you try to continually improve efficiency, by gaining knowledge and also by upgrading equipment. You do this so that you can generate more profits. Take something that used to take an hour and improve efficiency so that you can do it in 20 min., charge the same price, and do three now in an hour instead of one. That has always been the goal for me. Just because I spent years gaining knowledge and spending big money on equipment to do it faster doesn't mean I should charge less now because I'm more efficient.
> 
> For example if it used to take me three days to paint the exterior of a house by hand, and I was charging prices that were widely accepted as normal for an exterior repaint, then I go spend $1500 on a graco airless sprayer, and now I can do the same job in one day. Now I can do three houses in the time it took to do one. Just because I'm more efficient now it doesn't mean that I should lower my prices to paint three houses for the same price it used to be for one house.


Although I completely get you and agree with what you are saying.

Now what if you typically charge $500 to paint a house and you got every 12th house on the block, but now that you have your sprayer you can do them faster which allows you to lower your price to say $300 and still be profitable... now you have the entire subdivision and you just move from house to house, on down the street and pick up the volume. Profit per actual unit may decrease, but volume margins increase.

As long as things scale that way, it works, if they don't, then it does not.


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## SnoFarmer

and you left $200 on the table for each home painted.

why? because you made a investment?

i dont see ford chev dodge etc lowering prices because they sped up the assembling line...


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## Philbilly2

SnoFarmer said:


> and you left $200 on the tabel for each home.


not if you don't get them as they won't go with you at $500 but they will $300. You picked up $300 not left $200.


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## SnoFarmer

but he is already painting in the subdivision at $500 a shot...
he does have the business.


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## SnoFarmer

i thought the idea was to make as much money as you can for as little work, as can be done.

not do more work for the same amount of money you were earning before with more overhead.

jmo


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## Philbilly2

So if there are 500 houses in the subdivision.

He gets every 12th one @ $500 = $21,000 in that subdivision

He gets all 500 houses @ $300 = $150,000 in that subdivision

I know I am not going to get anywhere here, but volume means more to some businesses. 

For a simple example: I can say that I drop the profit margin on an RPZ test in my line of work if we can go into a factory or hospital building at test say 20 devices in one day without having to re mobilize between each device. Profit per device goes down, but the volume margins in one location far out ways driving to 20 individual businesses and testing one device at each location. One employee can do 20 in a day at one location vs 20 in a week if he drives all over the county.

jmo


----------



## ktfbgb

Philbilly2 said:


> So if there are 500 houses in the subdivision.
> 
> He gets every 12th one @ $500 = $21,000 in that subdivision
> 
> He gets all 500 houses @ $300 = $150,000 in that subdivision
> 
> I know I am not going to get anywhere here, but volume means more to some businesses.
> 
> For a simple example: I can say that I drop the profit margin on an RPZ test in my line of work if we can go into a factory or hospital building at test say 20 devices in one day without having to re mobilize between each device. Profit per device goes down, but the volume margins in one location far out ways driving to 20 individual businesses and testing one device at each location. One employee can do 20 in a day at one location vs 20 in a week if he drives all over the county.
> 
> jmo


With this example then it totally makes sense if the same profit margin is maintained. But usually with volume, come increased overhead costs. I shoot for a profit margin of 15-20%. Let's face it some types of jobs yield a higher margin so that's my goal range. At 20% the 21,000 has a profit of a little over 4K, the $150,000 yields a $30,000 profit. If that margin can be maintained then absolutely it makes sense. And I have taken maintenance contracts with property managers and schools etc. and lowered the cost a little because volume did more than make up the loss from the lowered price. I only did this however on accounts that didn't require additional overhead. There is a point in which it starts to compress and if 150,000 account means yielding 7k in profit over the 4K in profit, then I would absolutely rather make 20k in the subdivision for 3k less profit. It is 5 times less work and I could fill the time with more jobs that make the same margin, without adding any more overhead. So in the end I would make more profit for less work in the long run. Which as Sno points out is the goal. Maximum profit for the least amount of work. But like I said if the scenario played out where I make 26k more in profit over the other way then yes it's a no brainer.


----------



## SnoFarmer

He has to paint more homes..
At a lower price to make more.

he is all readying painting the homes.
He Is getting business at his higher price.

Then you assume he wount get more work at his old price.
So after making an investment he has to lower his price and take on even more work
To make the same money.


Yes I get volume, volume = more work but at a lower price?
Why?
Why race to the bottom?
You're not doing yourself any favors.

McDonald's didn't lower thire prices when they invested in a bigger grill.....

Jmo.

I do get that useing a tractor and a blower is cleaner and faster.
And that can be a selling point.

Sno removal,still is and forever will be a cut throat business.


----------



## ktfbgb

And yes competition absolutely factors. If you can't get the work at current prices then obviously you have to charge what the market will bear. 300 will always be more than 0 lol.But in my example, I am currently getting the work at that rate. So a smaller volume means higher profit for less work. Unless the industry shifted and the market dictated that I could only get work at the lower price, the absolutely I would have to charge market price and increase volume.


----------



## Philbilly2

ktfbgb said:


> It is 5 times less work and I could fill the time with more jobs that make the same margin, without adding any more overhead. So in the end I would make more profit for less work in the long run. Which as Sno points out is the goal. Maximum profit for the least amount of work.


IF you can fill the rest the time with the high margin work... and that is IF, then yes. The higher profit margin will always win. As long as you see the actual margin all the way threw. Mobilization costs money. Every time you have to pack every item up, load it on a truck or trailer, move it across town, and unload it, that costs money and thus lowers your your profit margin. If you are loading a saw in your pickup... no. But think on a bigger scale... no bigger than that... volume margins come into play in a hurry.

The problem really comes when you have a bunch of good employees that you would prefer not to loose, and you have your existing overhead to pay, volume margins (still at a profit mind you) will surpass the handful of high profit margin jobs that you wait for. In the winter, I take jobs at a lower profit margin to keep my core guys working. Is that a smart business move? In many minds no. I am not a make every dollar guy as much as I am a keep my guys in their houses and food on their families tables as long as the company is still making a profit and can keep the doors open till the good work comes around in the spring, summer, and fall and we can make hay again. My guys make my margins back for me in the summer due to the fact that they know they have a home here.

I strive to make 15% or better on any job, some do better, some worse, typical come in at 10-12%, but I am still happy every day with 1% profit after all is said and done. Profit is still profit no mater how you look at it.

And yes... Sno is right... most profit for the least amount of work is always the goal. Wow, that hurt to type those three words...


----------



## FredG

You can't really compare moving snow to construction. If I can do 1000ft of sidewalk no stopping for wheel chair ramps etc. I would shoot for $9.75 per sq. If I have to put 3 wheel chair ramps because of cross streets I would want $11.00 per sq. You would have to, Because when the other contractors see they can knock out that straight with ease there going in lower to.


----------



## ktfbgb

Philbilly2 said:


> IF you can fill the rest the time with the high margin work... and that is IF, then yes. The higher profit margin will always win. As long as you see the actual margin all the way threw. Mobilization costs money. Every time you have to pack every item up, load it on a truck or trailer, move it across town, and unload it, that costs money and thus lowers your your profit margin. If you are loading a saw in your pickup... no. But think on a bigger scale... no bigger than that... volume margins come into play in a hurry.
> 
> The problem really comes when you have a bunch of good employees that you would prefer not to loose, and you have your existing overhead to pay, volume margins (still at a profit mind you) will surpass the handful of high profit margin jobs that you wait for. In the winter, I take jobs at a lower profit margin to keep my core guys working. Is that a smart business move? In many minds no. I am not a make every dollar guy as much as I am a keep my guys in their houses and food on their families tables as long as the company is still making a profit and can keep the doors open till the good work comes around in the spring, summer, and fall and we can make hay again. My guys make my margins back for me in the summer due to the fact that they know they have a home here.
> 
> I strive to make 15% or better on any job, some do better, some worse, typical come in at 10-12%, but I am still happy every day with 1% profit after all is said and done. Profit is still profit no mater how you look at it.
> 
> And yes... Sno is right... most profit for the least amount of work is always the goal. Wow, that hurt to type those three words...


You are absolutely correct I have nothing to argue with that. If you can keep getting work at that price is the key wording. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that neither view point is concrete and always set in stone. I constantly evaluate what my options are and if I need to take work at a lower profit I do. All of us that work in construction understand there are busy seasons and slow seasons. And we can either decide to bust it all busy season and turn down lower paying work in the winter and take a break, or work all year for a lower profit to keep the core guys busy. I do the latter.

Personally in my area, wether it's construction in the summer, or snow in the winter, there isn't enough supply to meet demand during the busy season for either industry. Is there competition yes. But is there enough work to only accept high margin work, yes. So plowing, I continually turn down work because I have too much and so I charge the high end. Conversely in the winter there is more supply than demand for construction so you lower prices to stay busy.


----------



## MBT

Philbilly2 said:


> I believe that it is in Cortland. (south of sycamore) looks like the subdivision to the east of Somonauk blacktop


yup Cortland it is


----------



## Philbilly2

Ok - Come on Fred... Everything can be scaled... you should know this, you been on this earth bustin your hump longer than me. 

I am going to give this one more go here again using the example that I said above. Testing RPZ's (what I do) vs plowing snow (what you do).

Goes like this...

I get $100 a device to test a RPZ in a normal world every day price.

If I test 20 devices at $100 dollars, but I have to mobilize every time and travel the county to do so, I make $2000 right? No, I just payed my employee for a week to drive from device to device for 40 hrs and it cost me $1840 in labor. So I net $160 profit. 8% profit. (mind you still profit and I will take it)

NOW... I go into a hospital, I charge them $75 dollars a device to test 20 devices again... I make only $1500 right? No, I only payed my employee for only 8 hours (as he never had to mobilize again) at $230 in labor. Net is $1270 = 84% profit.


Now, to snow removal. 

You get $100 per driveway every day price... normal world again.

If you can plow 20 driveways in a night at $100 dollars, but you have to travel all over the county to do so so you can only get to 20 per piece of equipment. You make $2000 right... No, you just payed 8hrs to your employee say $230 in labor. Net is $1700. 88% profit.

Now, you make those driveways one after another, that one single piece of equipment can now do say 60 driveways in the same 8 hour period. BUT to get the mass volume, you had to drop your rate to $75 a drive... but you have virtually 0 travel time now.

So... now you are doing 60 drives in a night at $75 because you are just leap frogging (no mobilization). $4500 gross invoices. You pay your man his $230 in labor. Your overall net is $4270... and guess what ... 94% profit.

So, it can be scaled, and you can even make bigger overall profit margins... I'm just saying...

Long and short, I would love to do the 20 drives and drive around all night...could be fun...I don't know. But personally I would do the 60 in a row for less individual profit and pick up the volume as not only do the profit margins increase, but your overall net also is much greater. Is it more work... heck yeah it is, but last time I checked the lazy fish goes hungry.


And I know one of you are going to call me out on that my numbers are not right for the snow industry. I never got paid to plow 1 driveway in my years of snow, so I don't have a clue what you get for a drive. I am simply using the same numbers that I know for what I do and showing how scaling works in business. It is a simple drop the individual job profit to pick up the mass volume and the profit can come around if it is scaled properly. That is all.


----------



## Philbilly2

ktfbgb said:


> And we can either decide to bust it all busy season and turn down lower paying work in the winter and take a break, or work all year for a lower profit to keep the core guys busy. I do the latter.


Don't want to start a pissing match here...

When I had no real overhead, and no employees, I did the same thing....

BUT

Just stop and think about how much money you are leaving on the table annually by "taking a break in the winter" as if you also took the lower margin work in the winter that is still profitable????


----------



## Philbilly2

MBT said:


> yup Cortland it is


Yeah, fixed quite a few houses in there over the years.

Water piping froze after they got foreclosed on and when the banks turned services back on... sprinkler system!

You are right about them being close to each other... drives are not even long enough to fit my work trucks in without hanging bumper in the street on some of them.


----------



## ktfbgb

Good example and Im not arguing against the example. And if you can pull profit like that from increasing volume then again that scenario is a no brainer. P.S. I understand that we are just using nice even numbers to demonstrate the scalability. 

Im not saying that you are wrong. Im just trying to figure out in the plowing example at what point does it compress the numbers and overhead starts to take over. So I have a truck that I have to have for my normal business all year. So I buy a plow for it to keep it working. Plow was 8K truck was 50K. But for the snow side of things lets say I bill 20 events at 10 hours per event, i know we are just using easy numbers here for illustration. If I use the truck for 1000 hours in a year then thats 20% that the truck is used for snow ops. So thats 10K for the truck. Overall money into equipment for snow 18K for the life of the equipment.

Lets not get into semantics over terminology and just call Overhead your costs. So we can assume that Besides purchase of equipment everything else is the same. Still need and operator for the truck with plow or the tractor with blower. still need fuel insurance and on and on.

So I have invested 18K and from what Im seeing on here a setup to do this kind of volume is in the 90K range. Lets assume a 5 year expected service life from each set up. 

18K = 3,600 per year billed before making profit

90K = 18K per year billed before making profit

I charge $75 minimum per driveway to plow, yes thats my actual rate.

OP is talking about $10 per driveway. So that is 75% less than my going rate.

So me to turn a profit I have to do 48 driveways.

For the OP to turn a profit he has to do 1,800 driveways.

Using the the 20 drives per night vs 60 drives It takes me 2.5 storms till i Profit

OP takes 30 storms to start making a profit.

Lets say we both get an equal number of events at 40 events per year. Just so the 30 storm analogy works.

After cost I make 56,250 at $75 per drive after doing my 2.5 storms to start being profitable

After cost OP makes 6000 profit after cost. 

I get the whole scaling thing and your analogy of charging 25% less to stay at one location for the whole day instead of paying a week of driving. I just am not understanding the whole quadrupling overhead cost in order to ramp up volume and charging 75% less. I am sure Im just not getting it correctly, and trying to figure out at what point does the overhead begin to outweigh the advantage of volume in this scenario?


----------



## ktfbgb

Philbilly2 said:


> Don't want to start a pissing match here...
> 
> When I had no real overhead, and no employees, I did the same thing....
> 
> BUT
> 
> Just stop and think about how much money you are leaving on the table annually by "taking a break in the winter" as if you also took the lower margin work in the winter that is still profitable????


I was saying that I do work all winter at the lower cost. I don't take a break just because of prices going down in winter. Sorry for the confusion. And Im not trying to start a pissing match either, Im trying to understand the scalability of this for my own personal advantage lol. Thats why Im on here. I want to be a better business owner and learn from those who have scaled their operations already.


----------



## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> Ok - Come on Fred... Everything can be scaled... you should know this, you been on this earth bustin your hump longer than me.
> 
> I am going to give this one more go here again using the example that I said above. Testing RPZ's (what I do) vs plowing snow (what you do).
> 
> Goes like this...
> 
> I get $100 a device to test a RPZ in a normal world every day price.
> 
> If I test 20 devices at $100 dollars, but I have to mobilize every time and travel the county to do so, I make $2000 right? No, I just payed my employee for a week to drive from device to device for 40 hrs and it cost me $1840 in labor. So I net $160 profit. 8% profit. (mind you still profit and I will take it)
> 
> NOW... I go into a hospital, I charge them $75 dollars a device to test 20 devices again... I make only $1500 right? No, I only payed my employee for only 8 hours (as he never had to mobilize again) at $230 in labor. Net is $1270 = 84% profit.
> 
> Now, to snow removal.
> 
> You get $100 per driveway every day price... normal world again.
> 
> If you can plow 20 driveways in a night at $100 dollars, but you have to travel all over the county to do so so you can only get to 20 per piece of equipment. You make $2000 right... No, you just payed 8hrs to your employee say $230 in labor. Net is $1700. 88% profit.
> 
> Now, you make those driveways one after another, that one single piece of equipment can now do say 60 driveways in the same 8 hour period. BUT to get the mass volume, you had to drop your rate to $75 a drive... but you have virtually 0 travel time now.
> 
> So... now you are doing 60 drives in a night at $75 because you are just leap frogging (no mobilization). $4500 gross invoices. You pay your man his $230 in labor. Your overall net is $4270... and guess what ... 94% profit.
> 
> So, it can be scaled, and you can even make bigger overall profit margins... I'm just saying...
> 
> Long and short, I would love to do the 20 drives and drive around all night...could be fun...I don't know. But personally I would do the 60 in a row for less individual profit and pick up the volume as not only do the profit margins increase, but your overall net also is much greater. Is it more work... heck yeah it is, but last time I checked the lazy fish goes hungry.
> 
> And I know one of you are going to call me out on that my numbers are not right for the snow industry. I never got paid to plow 1 driveway in my years of snow, so I don't have a clue what you get for a drive. I am simply using the same numbers that I know for what I do and showing how scaling works in business. It is a simple drop the individual job profit to pick up the mass volume and the profit can come around if it is scaled properly. That is all.


LOL I was agreeing with you, My biz is in the summer, I can't get blacktop and concrete is a hit and miss as I don't do interior work anymore. Maybe some pipe but not likely accept a water main break. I stated above if I can knock some straight sidewalk out all in one spot I would lower my price. Once another contractor sees its a quick score you would not get the work anyways without dropping. All my work is bid by sq ft. Very simple. But if I can slam bang something I will drop my price.


----------



## Philbilly2

ktfbgb said:


> I get the whole scaling thing and your analogy of charging 25% less to stay at one location for the whole day instead of paying a week of driving. I just am not understanding the whole quadrupling overhead cost in order to ramp up volume and charging 75% less. I am sure Im just not getting it correctly, and trying to figure out at what point does the overhead begin to outweigh the advantage of volume in this scenario?


You are on the ball... I can appreciate that!

How things scale vs overhead are going to be different for every single operation out there. Your personal overhead will determine what makes the different levels of scaling possible in each persons/ operations own futures.

It is a much further gap in your scenario and I would say that it will be very hard to overcome the gap that the OP is speaking of.

I don't think that guys in our area are getting more than $20-$30 a drive. I don't know for sure as I said before, in my snow days, I never plowed a drive for money so I don't know want they bring. But I am sure that the gap in our area is not that drastic.

I do agree with the overhead outweighing the volume. I am just trying to give the point of if you already have the equipment and it needs to do work, it can still make the margins at a lower rate.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

ktfbgb said:


> So I'm not arguing against any of the opinions on here. There are guys on here that have been doing this since I was in diapers, well almost anyway. And obviously creating a niche is generally accepted as being one way to lock in a market. I have also seen the math posted, and numbers don't lie. It appears that it can be done, and like mark said both answers are right. If you believe it can't be done then you will never pull it off, if you believe it can then you probably can.
> 
> But it's contrary to what I've learned about business in general, at least in the service industry. Meaning contractors, snow removal, lawn guys etc. I was taught that you try to continually improve efficiency, by gaining knowledge and also by upgrading equipment. You do this so that you can generate more profits. Take something that used to take an hour and improve efficiency so that you can do it in 20 min., charge the same price, and do three now in an hour instead of one. That has always been the goal for me. Just because I spent years gaining knowledge and spending big money on equipment to do it faster doesn't mean I should charge less now because I'm more efficient.
> 
> For example if it used to take me three days to paint the exterior of a house by hand, and I was charging prices that were widely accepted as normal for an exterior repaint, then I go spend $1500 on a graco airless sprayer, and now I can do the same job in one day. Now I can do three houses in the time it took to do one. Just because I'm more efficient now it doesn't mean that I should lower my prices to paint three houses for the same price it used to be for one house.


You are absolutely correct. And common sense tells us you are correct. Reality isn't always common sense. But then you have asshats with huge egos that want to be the biggest so they continually lower prices so they can be the biggest. They also add in lots of small print and may or may not be completely honest when they say they applied 2 tons of salt but bill for 3.

Unfortunately as the snow industry matured, there were some that turned the service into a commodity and ruined the pricing in many areas. There's many posts aboot this.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> So if there are 500 houses in the subdivision.
> 
> He gets every 12th one @ $500 = $21,000 in that subdivision
> 
> He gets all 500 houses @ $300 = $150,000 in that subdivision
> 
> I know I am not going to get anywhere here, but volume means more to some businesses.
> 
> For a simple example: I can say that I drop the profit margin on an RPZ test in my line of work if we can go into a factory or hospital building at test say 20 devices in one day without having to re mobilize between each device. Profit per device goes down, but the volume margins in one location far out ways driving to 20 individual businesses and testing one device at each location. One employee can do 20 in a day at one location vs 20 in a week if he drives all over the county.
> 
> jmo


Too bad you can't post this in the GIE thread. Same point I was making back then and :terribletowel:couldn't grasp it.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> IF you can fill the rest the time with the high margin work... and that is IF, then yes. The higher profit margin will always win. As long as you see the actual margin all the way threw. Mobilization costs money. Every time you have to pack every item up, load it on a truck or trailer, move it across town, and unload it, that costs money and thus lowers your your profit margin. If you are loading a saw in your pickup... no. But think on a bigger scale... no bigger than that... volume margins come into play in a hurry.
> 
> The problem really comes when you have a bunch of good employees that you would prefer not to loose, and you have your existing overhead to pay, volume margins (still at a profit mind you) will surpass the handful of high profit margin jobs that you wait for. In the winter, I take jobs at a lower profit margin to keep my core guys working. Is that a smart business move? In many minds no. I am not a make every dollar guy as much as I am a keep my guys in their houses and food on their families tables as long as the company is still making a profit and can keep the doors open till the good work comes around in the spring, summer, and fall and we can make hay again. My guys make my margins back for me in the summer due to the fact that they know they have a home here.
> 
> I strive to make 15% or better on any job, some do better, some worse, typical come in at 10-12%, but I am still happy every day with 1% profit after all is said and done. Profit is still profit no mater how you look at it.
> 
> And yes... Sno is right... most profit for the least amount of work is always the goal. Wow, that hurt to type those three words...


:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> Ok - Come on Fred... Everything can be scaled... you should know this, you been on this earth bustin your hump longer than me.
> 
> I am going to give this one more go here again using the example that I said above. Testing RPZ's (what I do) vs plowing snow (what you do).
> 
> Goes like this...
> 
> I get $100 a device to test a RPZ in a normal world every day price.
> 
> If I test 20 devices at $100 dollars, but I have to mobilize every time and travel the county to do so, I make $2000 right? No, I just payed my employee for a week to drive from device to device for 40 hrs and it cost me $1840 in labor. So I net $160 profit. 8% profit. (mind you still profit and I will take it)
> 
> NOW... I go into a hospital, I charge them $75 dollars a device to test 20 devices again... I make only $1500 right? No, I only payed my employee for only 8 hours (as he never had to mobilize again) at $230 in labor. Net is $1270 = 84% profit.
> 
> Now, to snow removal.
> 
> You get $100 per driveway every day price... normal world again.
> 
> If you can plow 20 driveways in a night at $100 dollars, but you have to travel all over the county to do so so you can only get to 20 per piece of equipment. You make $2000 right... No, you just payed 8hrs to your employee say $230 in labor. Net is $1700. 88% profit.
> 
> Now, you make those driveways one after another, that one single piece of equipment can now do say 60 driveways in the same 8 hour period. BUT to get the mass volume, you had to drop your rate to $75 a drive... but you have virtually 0 travel time now.
> 
> So... now you are doing 60 drives in a night at $75 because you are just leap frogging (no mobilization). $4500 gross invoices. You pay your man his $230 in labor. Your overall net is $4270... and guess what ... 94% profit.
> 
> So, it can be scaled, and you can even make bigger overall profit margins... I'm just saying...
> 
> Long and short, I would love to do the 20 drives and drive around all night...could be fun...I don't know. But personally I would do the 60 in a row for less individual profit and pick up the volume as not only do the profit margins increase, but your overall net also is much greater. Is it more work... heck yeah it is, but last time I checked the lazy fish goes hungry.
> 
> And I know one of you are going to call me out on that my numbers are not right for the snow industry. I never got paid to plow 1 driveway in my years of snow, so I don't have a clue what you get for a drive. I am simply using the same numbers that I know for what I do and showing how scaling works in business. It is a simple drop the individual job profit to pick up the mass volume and the profit can come around if it is scaled properly. That is all.


Wish I was as smart as you.

Or maybe I should say as polite.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

ktfbgb said:


> Good example and Im not arguing against the example. And if you can pull profit like that from increasing volume then again that scenario is a no brainer. P.S. I understand that we are just using nice even numbers to demonstrate the scalability.
> 
> Im not saying that you are wrong. Im just trying to figure out in the plowing example at what point does it compress the numbers and overhead starts to take over. So I have a truck that I have to have for my normal business all year. So I buy a plow for it to keep it working. Plow was 8K truck was 50K. But for the snow side of things lets say I bill 20 events at 10 hours per event, i know we are just using easy numbers here for illustration. If I use the truck for 1000 hours in a year then thats 20% that the truck is used for snow ops. So thats 10K for the truck. Overall money into equipment for snow 18K for the life of the equipment.
> 
> Lets not get into semantics over terminology and just call Overhead your costs. So we can assume that Besides purchase of equipment everything else is the same. Still need and operator for the truck with plow or the tractor with blower. still need fuel insurance and on and on.
> 
> So I have invested 18K and from what Im seeing on here a setup to do this kind of volume is in the 90K range. Lets assume a 5 year expected service life from each set up.
> 
> 18K = 3,600 per year billed before making profit
> 
> 90K = 18K per year billed before making profit
> 
> I charge $75 minimum per driveway to plow, yes thats my actual rate.
> 
> OP is talking about $10 per driveway. So that is 75% less than my going rate.
> 
> So me to turn a profit I have to do 48 driveways.
> 
> For the OP to turn a profit he has to do 1,800 driveways.
> 
> Using the the 20 drives per night vs 60 drives It takes me 2.5 storms till i Profit
> 
> OP takes 30 storms to start making a profit.
> 
> Lets say we both get an equal number of events at 40 events per year. Just so the 30 storm analogy works.
> 
> After cost I make 56,250 at $75 per drive after doing my 2.5 storms to start being profitable
> 
> After cost OP makes 6000 profit after cost.
> 
> I get the whole scaling thing and your analogy of charging 25% less to stay at one location for the whole day instead of paying a week of driving. I just am not understanding the whole quadrupling overhead cost in order to ramp up volume and charging 75% less. I am sure Im just not getting it correctly, and trying to figure out at what point does the overhead begin to outweigh the advantage of volume in this scenario?


Too tired to run the numbers exactly, but in some areas, $10 for an average 2 stall garage, 2-3 car lengths long is all you can get. It's either figure out a way to be efficient and make money at those rates or not.

Neige has said time and again that his profit margins are double on residential work vs commercial work.

You're also falling into the "price per drive" trap that others have. Especially in the GIE thread. Don't _ONLY_ look at the price per drive, look at the dollars per hour.


----------



## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes said:


> Wish I was as smart as you.
> 
> Or maybe I should say as polite.


That's why he wears this at the seminar and not heavy duty tinfoil.








Q.yes mark margins, a nasty trap when you are providing a service and not a product.
why limit yourself to $100 an hr.
And let's face it, no one if going to be operating a tractor and blower for 6 hrs at the rate in the vid buff posted.

Why do more, have more employees, equipment and costs to oppeate to stay in the same place?

I know becuse you can.. And nige (spelling) does it. (didn't he sell out to his Bro?)
It is sounding like we have reached the end of the race,
$10 dollar drives,

Hint my customers would have paid mulch more,
I know , some will say they will increase the price $1-$2 a year,to get it back up.
It will take you 45years to get it back up to what they are paying...

Get ready folks, parking lots are next....

Ps do you buy 60-100equiped tractors or do you get a winter only lease?


----------



## FredG

Don't put me in the middle of this, Scale, profit, snowplowing, construction whatever, This thread is or was about mega drives. We all know how someone does the drives for $12.00 and we also know how you can't do them for $12.00,


----------



## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer said:


> That's why he wears this at the seminar and not heavy duty tinfoil.
> View attachment 169531


I missed Phil at the webinar......dang.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> Don't put me in the middle of this, Scale, profit, snowplowing, construction whatever, This thread is or was about mega drives. We all know how someone does the drives for $12.00 and we also know how you can't do them for $12.00,


Why can't they be done for $12?

I want hard numbers, not just you stating they can't be. That's the same mentality in the GIE thread that was locked unnecessarily. Just because you say it can't be done doesn't make it a fact.

Besides, Phil already proved it can be done.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer said:


> Q.yes mark margins, a nasty trap when you are providing a service and not a product.
> why limit yourself to $100 an hr.
> And let's face it, no one if going to be operating a tractor and blower for 6 hrs at the rate in the vid buff posted.
> 
> Why do more, have more employees, equipment and costs to oppeate to stay in the same place?
> 
> I know becuse you can.. And nige (spelling) does it. (didn't he sell out to his Bro?)
> It is sounding like we have reached the end of the race,
> $10 dollar drives,
> 
> Hint my customers would have paid mulch more,
> I know , some will say they will increase the price $1-$2 a year,to get it back up.
> It will take you 45years to get it back up to what they are paying...
> 
> Get ready folks, parking lots are next....


I agree, but reality is different.

Why not?

I'm stoopid?

Yes

Let's hope so, although there was a company advertising unlimited seasonal for $190.

Commercial pricing by me tanked aboot 10 years ago. Prices finally started going back up after '13-'14 when we had 120". Increased a bit after that and then last year started going backwards again. Same this year.


----------



## ktfbgb

Thanks for a stimulating conversation guys. I appreciate each of the differing viewpoints, experiences, and the hypothetical math to figure it out. I for one like it, and appreciate the opportunity to learn from the input from everyone else. It makes me think, it makes me better, and it keeps me from getting into the whole "that's the way it's always been done around here, so it's the only way to do it" trap.


----------



## Mr.Markus

SnoFarmer said:


> No Ya don't.
> Kiss.
> 
> Seasional,
> Prepay,
> The HOA or the clients Can pay all of it up front or opt for a 2 payment option.
> 
> But waite,
> We can do this all winter....
> So sigen up today and get unlimited plowing 2" trigger between November and March.
> ( it always snows in April for a end of the season bounous)
> A $xxx per push option is available.
> Salt extra.
> Shoveling is available ,just pay shipping and handeling.
> 
> I jest a littel.
> .there are options to all of the paper work or chasing money.


http://coub.com/view/edgg2


----------



## SnoFarmer

Mr.Markus said:


> http://coub.com/view/edgg2


No volume?

They have a contract to take to the judge...

You prepay for maney services.
No proublem.


----------



## SnoFarmer

ktfbgb said:


> Thanks for a stimulating conversation guys. I appreciate each of the differing viewpoints, experiences, and the hypothetical math to figure it out. I for one like it, and appreciate the opportunity to learn from the input from everyone else. It makes me think, it makes me better, and it keeps me from getting into the whole "that's the way it's always been done around here, so it's the only way to do it" trap.


Picking brains....

Glade,I'm in a littel backwater that is aboot 5-10 years behind the times.
We don't have a subdivision large enough.
But there are few if any useing a tractor set up......

So why do Ya have to go and try en chang it?
I just got it where I like it.


----------



## ktfbgb

SnoFarmer said:


> Picking brains....
> 
> Glade,I'm in a littel backwater that is aboot 5-10 years behind the times.
> We don't have a subdivision large enough.
> But there are few if any useing a tractor set up......
> 
> So why do Ya have to go and try en chang it?
> I just got it where I like it.


I'm personally not going to try and do a set up like this and go for mass volume at low rates. Our market here is just not snow adverse so I get top dollar for Residential's on second and third homes. Hardly any locals pay for residential. The market here is in commercial. I too am generally happy with the way it is and don't really want to change it at this point.

But most of the information obtained on this site particularly threads like this apply across my business. Just cause we are talking snow doesn't mean the concepts don't apply to my contracting business that I absolutely want to scale. Plus it makes me think about if there may be an opportunity to try this here with snow, think about it, and ultimately realize that there isn't a market here for it. But that doesn't mean it wasn't worth thinking about.


----------



## Philbilly2

ktfbgb said:


> I'm personally not going to try and do a set up like this and go for mass volume at low rates. Our market here is just not snow adverse so I get top dollar for Residential's on second and third homes. Hardly any locals pay for residential. The market here is in commercial. I too am generally happy with the way it is and don't really want to change it at this point.
> 
> But most of the information obtained on this site particularly threads like this apply across my business. Just cause we are talking snow doesn't mean the concepts don't apply to my contracting business that I absolutely want to scale. Plus it makes me think about if there may be an opportunity to try this here with snow, think about it, and ultimately realize that there isn't a market here for it. But that doesn't mean it wasn't worth thinking about.


Well put. Thumbs Up


----------



## Philbilly2

We have a ton of these "cookie cutter" subdivisions in our area. 

I mean tons...

I wish I would have not had such a hard on for doing "box stores" when I was in the business. 

There is money to be made on these subdivisions. I was to dumb to realize at the time, but every time I go into one to work on a house, I just look at all the $$$ if I could do every drive in these little hidden gems...

As my serenio was told... 60 in 8 hours... I could shovel 60 of these little drives in 8 hours...


----------



## Dirtebiker

SnoFarmer said:


> and you left $200 on the table for each home painted.
> 
> why? because you made a investment?
> 
> i dont see ford chev dodge etc lowering prices because they sped up the assembling line...


Isn't that exactly what Henry Ford did?


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Why can't they be done for $12?
> 
> I want hard numbers, not just you stating they can't be. That's the same mentality in the GIE thread that was locked unnecessarily. Just because you say it can't be done doesn't make it a fact.
> 
> Besides, Phil already proved it can be done.


I agree they can be done, I'm not aware I said it can't be done. If I did I was wrong high or something, With a inverted or possibly a pull behind it could be done. I'm not giving no hard #'s, I'm messed up. Never argued with Phils #'s. And as I said you know how it can be done and how it can't from my upper posts.


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Why can't they be done for $12?
> 
> I want hard numbers, not just you stating they can't be. That's the same mentality in the GIE thread that was locked unnecessarily. Just because you say it can't be done doesn't make it a fact.
> 
> Besides, Phil already proved it can be done.


They can't be done with a shovel. You still need #'s


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> They can't be done with a shovel. You still need #'s


What do hashtags have to do with snow removal?


----------



## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> Ok - Come on Fred... Everything can be scaled... you should know this, you been on this earth bustin your hump longer than me.
> 
> I am going to give this one more go here again using the example that I said above. Testing RPZ's (what I do) vs plowing snow (what you do).
> 
> Goes like this...
> 
> I get $100 a device to test a RPZ in a normal world every day price.
> 
> If I test 20 devices at $100 dollars, but I have to mobilize every time and travel the county to do so, I make $2000 right? No, I just payed my employee for a week to drive from device to device for 40 hrs and it cost me $1840 in labor. So I net $160 profit. 8% profit. (mind you still profit and I will take it)
> 
> NOW... I go into a hospital, I charge them $75 dollars a device to test 20 devices again... I make only $1500 right? No, I only payed my employee for only 8 hours (as he never had to mobilize again) at $230 in labor. Net is $1270 = 84% profit.
> 
> Now, to snow removal.
> 
> You get $100 per driveway every day price... normal world again.
> 
> If you can plow 20 driveways in a night at $100 dollars, but you have to travel all over the county to do so so you can only get to 20 per piece of equipment. You make $2000 right... No, you just payed 8hrs to your employee say $230 in labor. Net is $1700. 88% profit.
> 
> Now, you make those driveways one after another, that one single piece of equipment can now do say 60 driveways in the same 8 hour period. BUT to get the mass volume, you had to drop your rate to $75 a drive... but you have virtually 0 travel time now.
> 
> So... now you are doing 60 drives in a night at $75 because you are just leap frogging (no mobilization). $4500 gross invoices. You pay your man his $230 in labor. Your overall net is $4270... and guess what ... 94% profit.
> 
> So, it can be scaled, and you can even make bigger overall profit margins... I'm just saying...
> 
> Long and short, I would love to do the 20 drives and drive around all night...could be fun...I don't know. But personally I would do the 60 in a row for less individual profit and pick up the volume as not only do the profit margins increase, but your overall net also is much greater. Is it more work... heck yeah it is, but last time I checked the lazy fish goes hungry.
> 
> And I know one of you are going to call me out on that my numbers are not right for the snow industry. I never got paid to plow 1 driveway in my years of snow, so I don't have a clue what you get for a drive. I am simply using the same numbers that I know for what I do and showing how scaling works in business. It is a simple drop the individual job profit to pick up the mass volume and the profit can come around if it is scaled properly. That is all.





Philbilly2 said:


> Ok - Come on Fred... Everything can be scaled... you should know this, you been on this earth bustin your hump longer than me.
> 
> I am going to give this one more go here again using the example that I said above. Testing RPZ's (what I do) vs plowing snow (what you do).
> 
> Goes like this...
> 
> I get $100 a device to test a RPZ in a normal world every day price.
> 
> If I test 20 devices at $100 dollars, but I have to mobilize every time and travel the county to do so, I make $2000 right? No, I just payed my employee for a week to drive from device to device for 40 hrs and it cost me $1840 in labor. So I net $160 profit. 8% profit. (mind you still profit and I will take it)
> 
> NOW... I go into a hospital, I charge them $75 dollars a device to test 20 devices again... I make only $1500 right? No, I only payed my employee for only 8 hours (as he never had to mobilize again) at $230 in labor. Net is $1270 = 84% profit.
> 
> Now, to snow removal.
> 
> You get $100 per driveway every day price... normal world again.
> 
> If you can plow 20 driveways in a night at $100 dollars, but you have to travel all over the county to do so so you can only get to 20 per piece of equipment. You make $2000 right... No, you just payed 8hrs to your employee say $230 in labor. Net is $1700. 88% profit.
> 
> Now, you make those driveways one after another, that one single piece of equipment can now do say 60 driveways in the same 8 hour period. BUT to get the mass volume, you had to drop your rate to $75 a drive... but you have virtually 0 travel time now.
> 
> So... now you are doing 60 drives in a night at $75 because you are just leap frogging (no mobilization). $4500 gross invoices. You pay your man his $230 in labor. Your overall net is $4270... and guess what ... 94% profit.
> 
> So, it can be scaled, and you can even make bigger overall profit margins... I'm just saying...
> 
> Long and short, I would love to do the 20 drives and drive around all night...could be fun...I don't know. But personally I would do the 60 in a row for less individual profit and pick up the volume as not only do the profit margins increase, but your overall net also is much greater. Is it more work... heck yeah it is, but last time I checked the lazy fish goes hungry.
> 
> And I know one of you are going to call me out on that my numbers are not right for the snow industry. I never got paid to plow 1 driveway in my years of snow, so I don't have a clue what you get for a drive. I am simply using the same numbers that I know for what I do and showing how scaling works in business. It is a simple drop the individual job profit to pick up the mass volume and the profit can come around if it is scaled properly. That is all.


Whats with the big lecture, I know the difference between volume and just getting a good price. If you want to compare snow plowing to construction knock yourself out. I personally disagree. And yes I have been busting my hump and I'm happy with my earnings. I personally don't care about anybody else is #'s I learned a long time ago my business is my business. I'm not calling you out on nothing I know you know how to run your own biz. You called me out before did I give you a reasonable answer?


----------



## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> What do hashtags have to do with snow removal?


I see you mix in pretty good.


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> I see you mix in pretty good.


Lol Thumbs Up


----------



## Mistifier

BUFF said:


> That wood be an option providing there another peace of equip to deal with what the BB pulled oot. Udder wize you'd have to do a lot of jockeying around.


I think the fastest way would be a metalpless on a 450-550 instead on the back blade. Then its back drag, then forward to the grass, back out and on to the next. Faily cheap, compared to multiple trucks especially compared to tractors.


----------



## Mistifier

SnoFarmer said:


> If this is a real "hoa" no vehicles will be parked outside over night.
> Unless it is a house guest . And for a limited time.
> 
> LOL


The guest cars can only be black, white or blue, and nothing more than 5yrs old.


----------



## Philbilly2

FredG said:


> Whats with the big lecture, I know the difference between volume and just getting a good price. If you want to compare snow plowing to construction knock yourself out. I personally disagree. And yes I have been busting my hump and I'm happy with my earnings. I personally don't care about anybody else is #'s I learned a long time ago my business is my business. I'm not calling you out on nothing I know you know how to run your own biz. You called me out before did I give you a reasonable answer?


No Fred, I was mistaken earlier. I thought you had said Earlier that it was not possible to compare scaling construction to plowing snow.

You already cleared it up earlier... my apologies for calling you out. Thumbs Up


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> Don't put me in the middle of this, Scale, profit, snowplowing, construction whatever, This thread is or was about mega drives. We all know how someone does the drives for $12.00 *and we also know how you can't do them for $12.00,*





FredG said:


> I agree they can be done, I'm not aware I said it can't be done. If I did I was wrong high or something,


Hope your high was good.


----------



## R75419

As I read this thread, especially page 4, I kept wondering why we have let our prices drop so far. Our pickups cost more than the 80's and 90's. Our plows cost more. Our fuel costs more. Our tractors cost more. Insurance, taxes etc. it all costs more yet we lower our prices because we can do it faster. It is a race to the bottom and no one can win. I am sickened by guys who charge $80/ton spread for salt when I am double that but they then bill the customer for 3 tons when we both spread one ton. I agree that a lot of us can STILL make money but why leave so much on the table? I can't say that I will always be around in this industry because I will not acquiesce and accept less than $100 per acre to plow.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

You won't plow for less than $100 an acre?


----------



## leigh

John_DeereGreen said:


> You won't plow for less than $100 an acre?


I plowed for 100$ an acre,in 1988! I remember when I subbed for a landscaper, he advised when asked how to bid our own jobs "2-3 $ a minute and include half the travel time".Only about 20% higher 28 years later! Of course that's a truck,not a high production loader/tractor on a 30 acre site.


----------



## BUFF

John_DeereGreen said:


> You won't plow for less than $100 an acre?


With a 8.5 blade with wings a decent operator can plow a acre up to 4"<> in 30min or less.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> With a 8.5 blade with wings a decent operator can plow a acre up to 4"<> in 30min or less.


Key words being "decent operator".


----------



## R75419

I agree you can plow that fast. The point is that the guys around here in the 80's were getting $200 an acre. Mowing was better money back then. I am a bricklayer and my grandpa made more in the 50's and 60's than my Dad and I do now. Why are those of us that work with our hands, backs AND BRAINS accepting less because society says going to college and having a desk job is worth more? This isn't some union mantra because I feel that the better your quality and speed is should be worth more than the slacker. My point is we are the ones building and maintaining the houses offices etc. so we should be on par with our desk jockey counterparts.


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hope your high was good.


LOL


----------



## FredG

R75419 said:


> I agree you can plow that fast. The point is that the guys around here in the 80's were getting $200 an acre. Mowing was better money back then. I am a bricklayer and my grandpa made more in the 50's and 60's than my Dad and I do now. Why are those of us that work with our hands, backs AND BRAINS accepting less because society says going to college and having a desk job is worth more? This isn't some union mantra because I feel that the better your quality and speed is should be worth more than the slacker. My point is we are the ones building and maintaining the houses offices etc. so we should be on par with our desk jockey counterparts.


My Grandfather and Father where stone masons from the old country. They did brick and block to but stone was there specialty. Both could of bought and sold me. I think back in those days the economy was much better more people with jobs. After WWll and the depression there was plenty of money to earn. Typically now every dollar you earn is only worth .45 cents.


----------



## FredG

Trying to find a plow operator that don't spend a half of day chasing windrows is like pulling teeth. LOL


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> Trying to find a plow operator that don't spend a half of day chasing windrows is like pulling teeth. LOL


Yep. And it's so easy to adjust the amount of bite you take to match conditions and prevent it from happening.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

FredG said:


> Trying to find a plow operator that don't spend a half of day chasing windrows is like pulling teeth. LOL


This frustrates me to no end.

We had a meeting before yesterday morning's plowing. Pretty much consisted of pay attention, we've plowed enough this year that we shouldn't have ****** trails to chase. And that was followed up with me saying every trail I see is an hour of pay you lose.

Shockingly, not one single trail was spotted. Funny how they have no problem wasting time, when it's doing nothing but helping their pockets. As soon as it can hurt them back, they all get their poop in a group.

This post was censored in order to avoid receiving angry PM's from MJD. If it weren't for that it'd be much more colorful.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

R75419 said:


> I agree you can plow that fast. The point is that the guys around here in the 80's were getting $200 an acre. Mowing was better money back then. I am a bricklayer and my grandpa made more in the 50's and 60's than my Dad and I do now. Why are those of us that work with our hands, backs AND BRAINS accepting less because society says going to college and having a desk job is worth more? This isn't some union mantra because I feel that the better your quality and speed is should be worth more than the slacker. My point is we are the ones building and maintaining the houses offices etc. so we should be on par with our desk jockey counterparts.


Like I said, common sense and reality are 2 different things.

Do I like the fact that prices have gone backwards??? Not even taking inflation into account.

So what do you do? If the market will only bear prices similar to what was charged in the 80's or 90's, you can whine, stomp your feet, ***** on plowsite about it and nothing will change. It's capitalism and the free market. Do you want price controls? It's also the maturing of the industry.

Tell your customers your prices have to go up because you're getting paid the same as it was in the 80's. Let us know how far that gets you.

If I stick with my demands of pricing the same as I did back then I won't be in business. I can go on welfare because the market won't bear the prices that I think I should be getting.

It sucks. Either adapt or move on. It's the real world.


----------



## SnoFarmer

Sounds like the industery need some Nixon control.

I mean Union....


----------



## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> Key words being "decent operator".


 Yes good / decent help is getting tough to find, the amount of time and resources spent on training new hires is a gamble and the odds are against you.


----------



## Defcon 5

BUFF said:


> Yes good / decent help is getting tough to find, the amount of time and resources spent on training new hires is a gamble and the odds are against you.


Why do you think that is Buffy???.....I have my theroys


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> Yes good / decent help is getting tough to find, the amount of time and resources spent on training new hires is a gamble and the odds are against you.


After trying to teach a plowman, I have actually had guys that just can't be taught. I had a friend help and turned him loose. Said he plowed when he was a grounds man at Kodak. I got a call from another contractor he was trying to plow the lot not wind rowing he was trying to plow the lot with the blade straight. LOL


----------



## BUFF

Defcon 5 said:


> Why do you think that is Buffy???.....I have my theroys


I'm sure you do and as sure as I am of that I'm also sure our theory's could differ too...
As Fred said some people just can't be taught.... There's also those that have a mulch higher opinion aboot themselves and more than a few also have a sense of entitlement too.
I have found the getting employees from rural areas with a high population of skilled blue collar families to be the best place.


----------



## Defcon 5

No...Our theorys are pretty close...I'm also a proponent of if you find someone that fits the bill you need to pay them a living wage...I'm not saying unionize Sno...Biggest issue with the green industry is the wage to keep guys around and interested...


----------



## BUFF

Defcon 5 said:


> No...Our theorys are pretty close...I'm also a proponent of if you find someone that fits the bill you need to pay them a living wage...I'm not saying unionize Sno...Biggest issue with the green industry is the wage to keep guys around and interested...


Pay is base off of what they bring to the table rather than what they take from it. I've found some people don't care aboot excelling in life and are content being a minion. Minions are needed but they need to at least have the ability to think about the outcome of their actions.


----------



## Philbilly2

Had an apprentice kid years back... kept a half hearted attitude, worked only as hard as he absolutely had to. If you did not give him a direction, he would just waste oxygen.

Tried to get him motivated one day and asked why he wasn't giving 110% all the time? Told him you got to put up a little more effort to get to getting a buck and a truck.

Looked me square in the face, told me...

"Phil... The world needs chiefs, and the world needs Indians"

I just shook my head and went back to work.


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## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> Had an apprentice kid years back... kept a half hearted attitude, worked only as hard as he absolutely had to. If you did not give him a direction, he would just waste oxygen.
> 
> Tried to get him motivated one day and asked why he wasn't giving 110% all the time? Told him you got to put up a little more effort to get to getting a buck and a truck.
> 
> Looked me square in the face, told me...
> 
> "Phil... The world needs chiefs, and the world needs Indians"
> 
> I just shook my head and went back to work.


He's Right if a Indian is all you can do, Meaning giving 110% but don't have leadership skills. The chiefs make the big coin and don't need to insure and maintain there own ride. What puzzles me is who gave that young kid that attitude. Must be worked around a bunch of :terribletowel:before he come to you. I realize you can't be wide open all the time for some reason. Meaning when the excavator etc is doing all the work. Still need to know how to look busy, There is always some clean up or something. At the very least learn how to lean on a shovel or something. LOL  :waving:


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> He's Right if a Indian is all you can do, Meaning giving 110% but don't have leadership skills. The chiefs make the big coin and don't need to insure and maintain there own ride. What puzzles me is who gave that young kid that attitude. Must be worked around a bunch of :terribletowel:before he come to you. I realize you can't be wide open all the time for some reason. Meaning when the excavator etc is doing all the work. Still need to know how to look busy, There is always some clean up or something. At the very least learn how to lean on a shovel or something. LOL  :waving:


I had my best employee ever for a couple months this summer. He was 20, and had very little experience. But I was looking for a laborer and the position didn't need experience. He let me know right up front that he was in the National Guard but was going through the process of enlisting full time. He was enlisting under the accelerated ranger program and basically as soon as paperwork was done he was going straight to AIT, then Ranger Selection. Said that he could get orders in a week or in a year, he had no idea. He needed to stay in shape since he was going straight to AIT/jumpschool and then selection so he said was a hard worker. This kid worked harder than anyone I have ever hired. He ran everywhere, even with a loaded wheel barrow, he ran with it. Never complained, and was always coming back saying I'm done Boss what next. I would say there's no way your done, go look and yep he was done but not only done the area was cleaned, tools hung back in the trailer etc. Had him 6 weeks before he shipped off. Told him he is always welcome back when he's done in the army. But if he makes selection those guys usually are going 20 years. I don't know if I will ever find a guy willing to work like that again.


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> I had my best employee ever for a couple months this summer. He was 20, and had very little experience. But I was looking for a laborer and the position didn't need experience. He let me know right up front that he was in the National Guard but was going through the process of enlisting full time. He was enlisting under the accelerated ranger program and basically as soon as paperwork was done he was going straight to AIT, then Ranger Selection. Said that he could get orders in a week or in a year, he had no idea. He needed to stay in shape since he was going straight to AIT/jumpschool and then selection so he said was a hard worker. This kid worked harder than anyone I have ever hired. He ran everywhere, even with a loaded wheel barrow, he ran with it. Never complained, and was always coming back saying I'm done Boss what next. I would say there's no way your done, go look and yep he was done but not only done the area was cleaned, tools hung back in the trailer etc. Had him 6 weeks before he shipped off. Told him he is always welcome back when he's done in the army. But if he makes selection those guys usually are going 20 years. I don't know if I will ever find a guy willing to work like that again.


Sorry to say you will probably never see him again, 20 year old kid with goals and hard work ethic usually go with Government jobs, City, State, PD, FD, FBI etc. Or come out and be a competitor. How many of us can say we got a 20 year old hard worker. As Phil said you got to give them direction or there going to stand straight up..LOL If they can't find there way even just mixing in with other guys I don't think I need him. Pickup tools at 20??? Yes I know there is young guys in biz. But normally they were under someones wing that been to hard knox and worked the **** out of them. Taught them how easy it is to earn but taught them how easy it is to lose to.


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## FredG

Furthermore my own son is not getting dirty for nobody, LOL As he tells me all the time, I'm educated.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> Furthermore my own son is not getting dirty for nobody, LOL As he tells me all the time, I'm educated.


Ouch!


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> Ouch!


I guess he works hard at what he does, He just don't like getting dirty and working hard with his hands and back.


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## Philbilly2

FredG said:


> I guess he works hard at what he does, He just don't like getting dirty and working hard with his hands and back.


That is understandable...

Hopefully he has good enough character to get dirty when you "need" him to.

I made a bunch of mistakes with my old man... I live every day now trying to correct all the... I guess wrong??? that I did...

Gosh I was a prick....

Sucks getting older and realizing that your dad is not going to be around forever...


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## ktfbgb

Hey look my
Post count went backward. And I don't Fred ever got to see the conversation about him lol


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## Philbilly2

ktfbgb said:


> Hey look my
> Post count went backward. And I don't Fred ever got to see the conversation about him lol


Yeah... you might have to get used to it. You hang around the trailer park long enough, it is bound to happen...


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## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> Yeah... you might have to get used to it. You hang around the trailer park long enough, it is bound to happen...


Yes this happens when everybody likes you.


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## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> That is understandable...
> 
> Hopefully he has good enough character to get dirty when you "need" him to.
> 
> I made a bunch of mistakes with my old man... I live every day now trying to correct all the... I guess wrong??? that I did...
> 
> Gosh I was a prick....
> 
> Sucks getting older and realizing that your dad is not going to be around forever...


Meh, You were just young, Hindsight suks.


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