# Dually for plowing?



## TokyoDrift99

So, I have been wondering, can I use a dually for plowing. I kind of want to buy a 94-02 Dodge 3500 Cummins Dually, with a rotten bed and fab a flatbed for it. (when I can drive, that is) I just don't know how a dually does in the snow. I have seen DRW plow trucks before, but I am pretty skeptical. I also want to do a little bit of wheeling, maybe a 3" lift or so. I really like the looks, and capability of a dually, so what way should I go? With a 3" lift could I even get the plow blade to contact the ground? Also 4x4 dually's tend to be pretty rare, and cost more, I am 14 and would be purchasing the truck completely on my own because my parents aren't even interested in helping me pay for a truck. So is it worth the extra cost, and decreased MPG of a dually? Also are there any benefits of a dually? Thanks for your help.


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## ozoneburner

I don't have a dually and I have no experience with them in the snow but from what I understand they don't do to well. I have a 99 2500 cummins and I love the truck but they do have their problems. I have a 8 ft blizzard on mine and I still slide around pretty good with 1000 lbs plus in the bed, I wouldn't think a dually would do you any better. Unless you buy a 12 valve (1994-98) your gonna need to get an aftermarket lift pump ($5-600 minimum) so you don't ruin your injection pump. Like any other older truck your front ends not gunna be in good shape tie rods, ball joints... They're great trucks but they're also expensive. I would be saving your money and puttin it towards parts, front end, and a lift pump rather than a lift. It sounds cool now but forget about mpg's with bigger tires and a lift I was in your same place a year ago and know a lot about these trucks if ya got any Q's just ask.


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## peteo1

I've plowed with several duallies over the years. They're like any other truck...just put enough weight in the bed and you'll be fine


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## BigBoyPlowin

Duallies do okay with weight. Without it, you'll skate by...Literally. Duallies have a wider footprint, distributing the weight of the truck over a wider area, opposed to a regular pickup. 
Thankfully we have a couple 4x4 duallies , its nice to be able to switch into 4x4 during heavy storms or in light storms when you just want to get done! As for the lift, Just remember-- If it's not like that from the factory, its probably not meant to be there. It will only put more ware on your U Joints and such.. 

As for mounting the plow, Your bracket attaching the Undercarriage will remain at the "Normal level" as if the truck wasn't even lifted. Extended brackets will have to be bolted and welded..but this is a normal procedure for medium duty trucks.


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## Antlerart06

4x4 Dually truck is only way to plow I can run circles around single wheel trucks with or without extra weight

around here you will see more duallies trucks then single wheel trucks plowing snow 

I know I'll never go back I can plow in 2wd where a SRW has to be lock in and I run summer tires


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## Eggie329

Advice I once received when looking at duallys was to make sure the plow is wider than the tires when angled. I bought an 8ft Fisher plow from a guy that had it on a dually and he said the outside tires on the rear were wider than the angle plow and would pull snow down to the pavement you just cleared causing extra work. I think I'll look for a dually before next winter so I can put extra weight in to plow some streets I'm trying to bid. I think I'd need a dually in order to carry enough weight to plow heavy snow in streets without sliding. I love the 94 to 02 Dodges (I had two before) or a late 90s diesel K3500...


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## Mark13

TokyoDrift99;1720256 said:


> So, I have been wondering, can I use a dually for plowing. I kind of want to buy a 94-02 Dodge 3500 Cummins Dually, with a rotten bed and fab a flatbed for it. (when I can drive, that is) I just don't know how a dually does in the snow. I have seen DRW plow trucks before, but I am pretty skeptical. I also want to do a little bit of wheeling, maybe a 3" lift or so. I really like the looks, and capability of a dually, so what way should I go? With a 3" lift could I even get the plow blade to contact the ground? Also 4x4 dually's tend to be pretty rare, and cost more, I am 14 and would be purchasing the truck completely on my own because my parents aren't even interested in helping me pay for a truck. So is it worth the extra cost, and decreased MPG of a dually? Also are there any benefits of a dually? Thanks for your help.


A 3" lift on one of those trucks will make for a pretty tall truck. Not that you can't plow with a lifted truck it just makes working out of the truck a pita. My 2500HD sits on a 4" lift and 34" tires for the winter. Working out of it is a pita compared to my bosses factory height trucks.

Also in 2-4yrs when you would be in the market for purchasing one of those trucks the newest one will be 14-16yrs old. I'm guessing you'll be looking at trucks with 180-300k miles on them at that age and in your price range. That's a pretty well aged and used truck to be starting out with and expecting to use day in and day out.

Also figure if the bed is rusted out, the cab will need quite a bit of work too. The frames under the cab are known to rust from the inside out as well. What may look fine at first glance may be pretty bad once you hit it with a hammer and realize the hammer went all the way through the frame.


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## BladeBlowBucket

Antlerart06;1720571 said:


> 4x4 Dually truck is only way to plow I can run circles around single wheel trucks with or without extra weight
> 
> around here you will see more duallies trucks then single wheel trucks plowing snow
> 
> I know I'll never go back I can plow in 2wd where a SRW has to be lock in and I run summer tires


I don't plow with a dually ….. BUT I can't help but agree 100% with Antlerart !

I tow year round with '03 Dodge 4x4 dually, and I'm towing really heavy ….. this time of the year i'm loaded with my Bcat c/w the 8611pp, a commercial Buhler Snowblower (c/w truck loading shute on deck and reg shute), and I carry an 8' wide 4-n-1 Bucket that I converted off of a JD 510 backhoe, this is all sitting on a 24,000# 20' Tandem dually gooseneck trailer ….. in the p/u box is a 100 USGal fuel tank and the fifth wheel hitch …..Total weight of everything is 33,500 lbs ……. I am getting around great, we have to, we are the guys that have to make sure we get to the job sites and Plow snow in the lots before Joe Public gets there, most of the time the secondary roads aren't even plowed yet.

The one thing I'd like to tell is, that I found out shortly after coming from a SRW to the DRW, Don't inflate the rear tires over 40#'s (max 45#'s) each, loaded the inner sidewalls are not even close to touching … the reason for this is 4 tires are carrying the weight of what I normally did with 2 on the SRW that was inflated to 80psi always ….. it's kinda the same principal as the guys that go wheeling …. the softer tire has more traction than the hard one, there is more tire surface contacting the ground, my tire wear is perfect, no cupping or dishing wear, perfectly flat !

I'm thinking when plowing with the DRW and hardly any weight in the box this can only Help !!! …. JMHO

I'm sure everyone has seen the guy that has singled out the rears on a dually in the winter …. LOL ….. probably a carry over thing from the days of split-rims and bias ply tires …. LOL …..

To Each his own … But this has Really worked great for me ……


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## NBI Lawn

Antlerart06;1720571 said:


> 4x4 Dually truck is only way to plow I can run circles around single wheel trucks with or without extra weight
> 
> around here you will see more duallies trucks then single wheel trucks plowing snow
> 
> I know I'll never go back I can plow in 2wd where a SRW has to be lock in and I run summer tires


I have a hard time believing this since DRW trucks SUCK in the snow. I am sure it does just fine but I highly doubt you are "running circles around" SRW trucks. Yes, I have plowed in many DRW trucks but do not currently own one.

OP, if you do decide to get a DRW be sure whatever plow you put on it is wide enough to clear the duals while the plow is angled.


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## Mark Oomkes

ozoneburner;1720510 said:


> I don't have a dually and I have no experience with them in the snow but from what I understand they don't do to well.


You may want to check your understanding, because your understanding is flat out wrong.



NBI Lawn;1721259 said:


> I have a hard time believing this since DRW trucks SUCK in the snow. I am sure it does just fine but I highly doubt you are "running circles around" SRW trucks. Yes, I have plowed in many DRW trucks but do not currently own one.
> 
> OP, if you do decide to get a DRW be sure whatever plow you put on it is wide enough to clear the duals while the plow is angled.


DRW's suck in the snow?

Somebody needs to alert the municipalities, because that's all they run. They should have been warned.

Tell you what, my salt supplier switched to super singles on their trains. The driver's hate them, loaded or unloaded. That should tell you something.

Secondly, if I am plowing parking lots and have the option, I will take a dually over a SRW any day, all day. Especially if it's more than 3-4", or heavy, or drifted, etc. Just like towing trailers with a DRW provides more stability, so will a DRW plow truck.

I currently run 6 DRW's and 3 SRW's. 3 of the duallies have 4WD, 3 don't. The non-4WD ones need a little more care when empty, but do just fine.

I understand the OP's question being new, but I can't believe there is even a discussion on this.


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## Sawboy

I've driven with both. Currently own a DRW. With equal weight in the back, in theory a SRW would be better based on the smaller footprint of the SRW. Now, in practicality, I think the difference is so small, it's negligible. 

Now where a DRW shines, and blows away a SRW is wind rowing. My truck will hold it's ground when shaving high windrows at the boundaries of a lot over and over to clear that extra space. This allows me to take a bigger bite, and save time. Additionally, in my opinion I can get a better push on a stacking because I have traction with on 6 tires on cleared ground versus 4.


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## BladeBlowBucket

Mark Oomkes;1721267 said:


> You may want to check your understanding, because your understanding is flat out wrong………………..
> 
> ……………..I understand the OP's question being new, but I can't believe there is even a discussion on this.


"Once Again " Mark …. You've hit the nail in the centre of the Bull's eye "BANG ON" …….. LMFAO ……..

It's a New Year ….. and once again we have the endless challenge of NOT being able to fix "STUPID" …….. LOL !!! ….. :waving:


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## NBI Lawn

Mark Oomkes;1721267 said:


> DRW's suck in the snow?
> 
> Somebody needs to alert the municipalities, because that's all they run. They should have been warned.
> 
> Tell you what, my salt supplier switched to super singles on their trains. The driver's hate them, loaded or unloaded. That should tell you something.
> 
> Secondly, if I am plowing parking lots and have the option, I will take a dually over a SRW any day, all day. Especially if it's more than 3-4", or heavy, or drifted, etc. Just like towing trailers with a DRW provides more stability, so will a DRW plow truck.
> 
> I currently run 6 DRW's and 3 SRW's. 3 of the duallies have 4WD, 3 don't. The
> non-4WD ones need a little more care when empty, but do just fine.
> 
> I understand the OP's question being new, but I can't believe there is even a discussion on this.


I typically don't see muni's running around with empty trucks. Most around me a DRW trucks too but have service bodies or dumps, not empty trucks. I was commenting on the average person running around with a DRW VS SRW. You would need to add more weight to the rear of a DRW to get the same traction.

Sure a DRW pulls better when going to the highway at 70mph but pulls like poo when pulling around town in snow.

I can see how super singles would suck in the snow since they are like 21" wide creating one large footprint VS two skinny ones.


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## SnoFarmer

A dulley limits your truing ability backing and going forward compared to a srw.

A dulley can limit you going threw some drive thews.
The only advantage a duely has is payload.
and stability when carrying a heavy salter/load...

you need to carry a lot more weight to get good traction with a dulley.


A duley ,unless you have a real need for it, it's the best choice for plowing.
when using a pick-up. 

Mark,,, 
apples to apples a 3500 and a Full fledged dump trucks and muni rigs are a wholly different animals.
and 
I bet they have a lot of weight on that rear axle on those "trucks" too.
as we all know a empty munni truck will slip and spin when things get slick.

humm, why are they the first to chain up when things go sideways?. they need the traction?


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## Sawboy

SnoFarmer;1721290 said:


> A dulley limits your truing ability backing and going forward compared to a srw.
> 
> A dulley can limit you going threw some drive thews.
> The only advantage a duely has is payload.
> and stability when carrying a heavy salter/load...
> 
> you need to carry a lot more weight to get good traction with a dulley.
> 
> A duley ,unless you have a real need for it, it's the best choice for plowing.
> when using a pick-up.
> 
> Mark,,,
> apples to apples a 3500 and a Full fledged dump trucks and muni rigs are a wholly different animals.
> and
> I bet they have a lot of weight on that rear axle on those "trucks" too.
> as we all know a empty munni truck will slip and spin when things get slick.
> 
> humm, why are they the first to chain up when things go sideways?. they need the traction?


HUH??


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## Mark Oomkes

NBI Lawn;1721289 said:


> I typically don't see muni's running around with empty trucks. Most around me a DRW trucks too but have service bodies or dumps, not empty trucks. I was commenting on the average person running around with a DRW VS SRW. You would need to add more weight to the rear of a DRW to get the same traction.
> 
> Sure a DRW pulls better when going to the highway at 70mph but pulls like poo when pulling around town in snow.
> 
> I can see how super singles would suck in the snow since they are like 21" wide creating one large footprint VS two skinny ones.


Oh, they never empty their load of salt or sand?

One of my trucks is an old muni truck. Actually 2 are, but only 1 was used for plowing\salting before I bought it.

I have a 10' V-box in it. Empty it regularly and run back to fill up. Same with my others. Dump\service\whatever, it doesn't matter. They all run empty sometimes.



Sawboy;1721295 said:


> HUH??


I understand what SF is saying. And he is correct, which is why I said if I was plowing parking lots, I would choose the DRW, driveways the SRW. Although, I think my '05 550 RC will out turn my '05 350 CC.

And yes a 350 is different than a 550 or larger, but it can be done. One of my 550's is 2WD. I would love it if had 4WD but it does just fine without it. Just went through a storm of well over a foot and it made it through just fine.

Not sure about the chains, Greg, I've only seen my county chain up twice in the past 15 years. But they all run underbodies, not front blades. That does make a big difference.


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## SnoFarmer

cool,
yea, you don't see chains used much as they just send out the road-graders when it gets really bad and load up the munies with salt for weight.
but out west you will see the chains come out to play.


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## WIPensFan

Had my 1 ton dump since 07'. Had it stuck once, and that was my fault for not lifting the pull plow in time to not trap myself behind a 3' wall of wet heavy snow with a curb and 8' wall of snow in front of me.(dumb a$$) This truck is a tank in the snow and has never had a salter in it. With the 2 plows on it and the steel dump bed it weighs more than a typical DRW pickup, but still, I'm not driving around with 3-4 thousand lbs in it and it's close to unstoppable. I've plowed steep drives that I always back up to the garage door to pull out...no problem. Hell, 30% of my resi's were flat, the rest were inclined to the garage. Tires are stock Generals of some kind, really basic all season tire...:laughing: doesn't even matter. It's always in 4x4 when plowing. Amazing little truck really.


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## SnoFarmer

^ I hope you didn't get stuck plowing flat and down hill runs...


The dump box and rear plow hanging out back all add weight.


ps and I'm sure the dump was empty and not full of snow ...
but anyway you weren't running around with a empty box and with out your pull plow were U?


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## Mark Oomkes

WIPensFan;1721339 said:


> Had my 1 ton dump since 07'. Had it stuck once, and that was my fault for not lifting the pull plow in time to not trap myself behind a 3' wall of wet heavy snow with a curb and 8' wall of snow in front of me.(dumb a$$) This truck is a tank in the snow and has never had a salter in it. With the 2 plows on it and the steel dump bed it weighs more than a typical DRW pickup, but still, I'm not driving around with 3-4 thousand lbs in it and it's close to unstoppable. I've plowed steep drives that I always back up to the garage door to pull out...no problem. Hell, 30% of my resi's were flat, the rest were inclined to the garage. Tires are stock Generals of some kind, really basic all season tire...:laughing: doesn't even matter. It's always in 4x4 when plowing. Amazing little truck really.


You are sadly mistaken. Doesn't matter that you own and operate this truck. The understanding is that DRW's suck in snow.

Please stop posting facts that have actual experience as their basis.


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## SnoFarmer

Are they related to electric spinner motors.
for some they make them work.
kind of like a drw.
he, hehe



Mark Oomkes;1721345 said:


> You are sadly mistaken. Doesn't matter that you own and operate this truck. The understanding is that DRW's suck in snow.
> 
> Please stop posting facts that have actual experience as their basis.


facts please...pumpkin:
Will a drw work, well sure, we all know that.
Will a swr work, sure you can even get swr 3500's.
What will work for U depends on what you do and what you expect a truck to do.

but drw needs more weight to gain the traction.

Think, ground psi per sq inch.
The higher the # the greater the friction coefficient is.


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## Mark13

SnoFarmer;1721355 said:


> but drw needs more weight to gain the traction.
> 
> Think, ground psi per sq inch.
> The higher the # the greater the friction coefficient is.


Different scenario but same idea. ASV/Cat 7 series mtl. Low ground pressure, some ASV's in the 3.x psi range yet they can push snow like no ones business. Weight isn't always the most important factor. Tread pattern and driver can make a huge difference on the outcome.


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## TokyoDrift99

Mark Oomkes;1721267 said:


> You may want to check your understanding, because your understanding is flat out wrong.
> 
> DRW's suck in the snow?
> 
> Somebody needs to alert the municipalities, because that's all they run. They should have been warned.


I always figured they used duals because it was their only choice, seeing as they use 2.5 or 5 ton trucks. But now that so many people are saying to go DRW I suppose there is a good advantage.


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## TokyoDrift99

SnoFarmer;1721290 said:


> A dulley can limit you going threw some drive thews.


lol that's gonna be a problem.


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## TokyoDrift99

I have another question, what is the point of a v plow? Is it for having a more compact footprint when driving, so your 10' blade wont total a civic on a narrow road?


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## Mark13

TokyoDrift99;1721507 said:


> I have another question, what is the point of a v plow? Is it for having a more compact footprint when driving, so your 10' blade wont total a civic on a narrow road?


A V plow and an Expandable plow (Wideout, 810, 8611, etc) all serve the same purpose. To make your life miserable when you have to run a straight blade for a storm. If it's a 7.6' straight blade multiply being miserable by 2.5 compared to a v or expanding plow.


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## Antlerart06

SnoFarmer;1721290 said:


> A dulley limits your truing ability backing and going forward compared to a srw.
> 
> A dulley can limit you going threw some drive thews.
> The only advantage a duely has is payload.
> and stability when carrying a heavy salter/load...
> 
> you need to carry a lot more weight to get good traction with a dulley.
> 
> A duley ,unless you have a real need for it, it's the best choice for plowing.
> when using a pick-up.
> 
> Mark,,,
> apples to apples a 3500 and a Full fledged dump trucks and muni rigs are a wholly different animals.
> and
> I bet they have a lot of weight on that rear axle on those "trucks" too.
> as we all know a empty munni truck will slip and spin when things get slick.
> 
> humm, why are they the first to chain up when things go sideways?. they need the traction?


My ford 4x4 dually fits in all drive-thrus Since I run a V plow I'm only one can fit in them.
Mine will turn as tight as my Reg cab SRW trucks besides my Crewcab it takes more area to turn around . 90% of the time I plow in 2wd and it doesn't matter if my V box is in the truck or hanging at the shop 
As long Im on pavement it will out plow SRW but we get on gravel uneven road the SRW will out plow me


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## JimMarshall

I agree a 4x4 dually is the way to go


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## TPCLandscaping

i run duallys for plowing. I can tell when my sander gets down because I'm having to put that truck in 4wd. The other truck i only run about 30 bags of salt in the back of it so I have to run that in 4wd quite often.

oh and some guys have said that you can take one set of the dually wheels off and run just singles in the rear for better traction as long as your not hauling a huge load.


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## jasonv

TokyoDrift99;1721507 said:


> I have another question, what is the point of a v plow? Is it for having a more compact footprint when driving, so your 10' blade wont total a civic on a narrow road?


An angled straight blade will push the snow to one side, back to newtonian physics again, that means that doing so will push the TRUCK to the OPPOSITE side. A v-blade will push the snow to both sides, effectively cancelling each other out, so the truck is easier to drive in a straight line. V-blades are better for cutting through deep stuff.


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## SnoFarmer

It doesn't matter if he needs a dwr, he wants a dwr.
,
sure, You can go with a single rear wheels and a flat bed or a take off box, off of a scraped truck it's done all the time. Those dully fenders aren't held on by much ether.

$9000 is possible for a truck if you search around for a while.
what is he going to do for fuel? Use money.
People are able to make money(work) or get it from other sources.

20mpg is very possible if you drive with out a load and like you have a egg under your foot.


He's trying to get a handle on what he wants and what will work for him.
We all were young and had deans at one time


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## SnoFarmer

My first vehicle was a f250....
He can't make any money with a ecno-box beater.
Maybe this "kid" doesn't have a sense of entitlement?
Maybe this "kid" wants to work?

I know little young 95lb girls who drive bigger trucks and heavy equipment....
size and power don't equalit to pushing over the empire state building or wanting to...

ya want to eat a apple but you don't need a apple to live.

Sure would a 2500 work, but he wants a 3500
who am I to say he can't have one.

INS, if there is a will there is a way.
younger folks have started a business.
will he need to work with his parents, possibly.
But then again I bet 90% of the guys plowing drives in my area operate without liability Insurance for snow-plowing.

He is planing a business,
This is more than most "kids" will do at such a age.
Most just want it all given to them and to play x-box all day, this "kid" wants to go to work.



jasonv;1723472 said:


> And when we were young and stupid, smarter or more experienced people put their foot down and injected some reason into the matter. This is a 14 year old kid, who hasn't got the faintest idea about the value of money. His parents are telling him NO, that its a stupid idea, and they're right. He needs to start off with a compact beater, to get his feet wet and LEARN what he actually *needs*, also what he MUST AVOID. He's thinking "oh my god big is awesome, gotta have big"... which as has been pointed out to him, is WRONG.
> 
> ... and something else he hasn't thought about, is INSURANCE. What insurance is he going to be able to afford? Who is going to be even WILLING to insure him as a principle driver on something with enough inertia to take down the empire state building?


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## OldSchoolPSD

Best thing for driveways is to pull up to Home Depot and honk the horn. #amigosFTW


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## mnglocker

Advice, unless you need the extra payload capacity in the back, just get a 2500. It's the same drive-line and frame, it'll get better millage and you'll spend less when you need tires. (10 plies aren't cheap)
If you get a 24V cummins, you'll NEED to get an aftermarket lift pump as mentioned on page 1. $500-600 up front. 

Otherwise, my advice would to be save your money, figure out what you want to do for a living, and don't base that on what kind of truck you have a woody for.


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## TokyoDrift99

jasonv;1723388 said:


> $9000 won't buy a *running* diesel dually.
> And what are you going to use to buy FUEL after you dump your $5000 into that ship anchor? And 20 mpg? LOL. That's hilarious. Good luck with that, kid.
> 
> Oh, did you forget about the fenders on a dually? Because removing a wheel won't magically make the fenders fall off....


I said they could PUSH 20, which means around 20. Fuel, well there is such a thing as not driving like a bat out of hell, and red dye (shhhhhh) is always about 25 to 50 cents cheaper than regular diesel. $9000 wont buy a running truck? Thats cute, check this out ( It aint a dually, or a stick but it'll do). This also saves me $2500 for a plow. http://burlington.craigslist.org/cto/4288105235.html


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## Whiffyspark

TokyoDrift99;1724054 said:


> I said they could PUSH 20, which means around 20. Fuel, well there is such a thing as not driving like a bat out of hell, and red dye (shhhhhh) is always about 25 to 50 cents cheaper than regular diesel.


Its not worth getting caught to save $15 on a fill up


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## JimMarshall

Whiffyspark;1724057 said:


> Its not worth getting caught to save $15 on a fill up


This.

Do you have any idea what the fine would be if they dipped your tank and you got caught???????????


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## mnglocker

Skip the red fuel. It'll cost you more than the truck's worth in fines. 

And for $6500, go for it, just plan on 2k worth of crap to go wrong in the first year as you work bugs out. Hell, I'm half temped to travel and buy it.


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## TokyoDrift99

mnglocker;1724083 said:


> Skip the red fuel. It'll cost you more than the truck's worth in fines.
> 
> And for $6500, go for it, just plan on 2k worth of crap to go wrong in the first year as you work bugs out. Hell, I'm half temped to travel and buy it.


I would love to buy it, but I only have about $500, and that is going towards a welder...


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## mnglocker




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## TCLandscaping

I just bought a one owner 05 cummins dually with 120k babied miles. Owner just turned 68. No rust whatsoever besides on stwp bars. Anything that could go has been replaced including 5k for injectors. I paid 12000. Deals are out there just gotta be patient. I also live on long island. One of the most over inflated overpriced places in the US.


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## SnoFarmer

It can vary from state to state.



mnglocker;1724083 said:


> Skip the red fuel. It'll cost you more than the truck's worth in fines.
> 
> And for $6500, go for it, just plan on 2k worth of crap to go wrong in the first year as you work bugs out. Hell, I'm half temped to travel and buy it.


BISMARCK, N.D. - Legislators heard testimony Friday from those supporting higher fines for drivers who illegally fill their tanks with red-dyed diesel fuel meant for agricultural use.

The benefit of using red-dyed diesel fuel is that it is taxed at a lower rate than regular diesel fuel.

Kevin Schatz, motor fuels and oil and gas tax supervisor for the North Dakota Tax Department, testified before the House Agriculture Committee that red-dyed diesel is 44 cents per gallon cheaper. Whenever a driver illegally fills with red diesel, the state loses 19 cents per gallon in fuel sales tax. The tax on fuel is part of what pays for road maintenance in the state.

"If you're going to use the roads, you have a responsibility to pay for the maintenance of those roads," said Dan Rouse, an attorney for the state Tax Department.

SB2294 would raise fines for using red-dyed diesel from $250 to $1,000 for the first violation, from $500 to $2,000 for the second violation within three years of the first, from $1,000 to $4,000 for a third violation occurring within three years of two previous violations, and from $5,000 to $10,000 for the fourth and subsequent violations occurring within three years of three or more previous violations.

Penalties for Misuse in Montana

If you fill your tank with dyed diesel and drive on Montana's public roads, you're breaking the law. The penalties for using dyed fuel on public roads in Montana are:

1st Offense
Up to $1,000.00 - Civil Penalty
2nd Offense
Up to $5,000.00 - Civil Penalty
3rd and Subsequent Offense
Criminal Penalty - minimum fine $535.00 - maximum $1,000.00 or by imprisonment for not less than 30 days or more than 6 months, or both.


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## LopatLT7495

Ok let me start by saying way to go some of you for knowing how to try and crush a kids dreams. Now I drive a 2003 4x4 dodge 3500 cummins dually with a 6spd. I bought it when I was 17 for $23,000 so I don't think anyone should say that it can't be done when they don't know someone. As for the 20mpg being a joke well my truck slightly modified about 475-500 at the wheels gets between 19-21 mpg on the highway and that's hand calculated!!! Try again saying its a joke. As for flex I can flex my dually out until the tire is hitting the inner fender well and the rear tire is still planted on the ground. When I bought my truck I had no need what so ever for dually, I loved the way they looked and wanted a truck I could keep for a long time. I do not regret buying it at all, the truck is a beast on and off road ( I have gone off road many times to pull my fire departments F-550 mini pumper out after getting stuck) I have never one got my truck stuck no matter where I have taken it. Yes fuel is expensive but so is gas these days and I'd rather pay for fuel and have tank like power instead of paying to fill up an f-150 grocery getter. And I just bought a plow for my truck and have seen many dually plow trucks. For the OP, speaking from being in pretty much the same place you are in, I say go for your dreams! Dually pickups are great and a cummins is a bullet proof engine. Save your money and make your dreams come true. Good luck man and don't let people tell you that you can't make your dreams come true!


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## Mark Oomkes

LopatLT7495;1724467 said:


> Ok let me start by saying way to go some of you for knowing how to try and crush a kids dreams. Now I drive a 2003 4x4 dodge 3500 cummins dually with a 6spd. I bought it when I was 17 for $23,000 so I don't think anyone should say that it can't be done when they don't know someone. As for the 20mpg being a joke well my truck slightly modified about 475-500 at the wheels gets between 19-21 mpg on the highway and that's hand calculated!!! Try again saying its a joke. As for flex I can flex my dually out until the tire is hitting the inner fender well and the rear tire is still planted on the ground. When I bought my truck I had no need what so ever for dually, I loved the way they looked and wanted a truck I could keep for a long time. I do not regret buying it at all, the truck is a beast on and off road ( I have gone off road many times to pull my fire departments F-550 mini pumper out after getting stuck) I have never one got my truck stuck no matter where I have taken it. Yes fuel is expensive but so is gas these days and I'd rather pay for fuel and have tank like power instead of paying to fill up an f-150 grocery getter. And I just bought a plow for my truck and have seen many dually plow trucks. For the OP, speaking from being in pretty much the same place you are in, I say go for your dreams! Dually pickups are great and a cummins is a bullet proof engine. Save your money and make your dreams come true. Good luck man and don't let people tell you that you can't make your dreams come true!


Well said. I was working on a reply similar to this yesterday stating "it's really none of your business what the kid wants to buy" but l lost it.

This is between his parents and him. Sure, we can give advice, although he asked about DRW vs SRW and not whether he can afford a DRW and it's fuel or the truck in and of itself.

If it's a mistake, let the kid make it and he can learn from it. If it's not, good for him. Sometimes the best lessons in life are the ones learned the hard way.

jasonv appears to have shown his true colours. It used to be Unimogs and Tatra's, now it's minitrucks. Connor\Tatra reincarnated.

kimber, what business is it of yours if a 16 YO wants a DRW? It's America and a relatively free country. It's none of your business what a 16 YO kid "needs". It's legal and if he can afford it, go for it. I would think someone with a username of kimber would get that, unless it has nothing to do with a fine handgun. Then again, you were sorely mistaken about building one's own firearms, so you can be sorely mistaken about this. Calling him Seedd is rude. You and jasonv are about the only ones telling this kid what to do when it's none of your business. It's between him and his parents and nothing to do with what he "needs".

Answer his original question. This is just like the guy who asks about buying a Boss or Curtis and a bunch of people jump in telling him he should buy a Daniels Wing Plow. Why can't some people just answer a question and provide real life experience?


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## Kcorey

im not sure what your intentions of plowing are (residential, commercial) but i had a 96 chevy k3500 diesel dually with mason dump for a little while, i plow mostly all residential with exception of 2 small parking lots and i was not very happy with the dually i even put 1000-1500 pounds in back. I sold that and bought a 99 chevy 2500 single wheel gas truck and i am MUCH happier with it. Plows like a dream and with some weight in back i only use 4wd on my steep driveways. I am no pro but just giving some friendly advice of what i found to work better for me. Also the cummins are great engines, however dodges rot around the engine and the transmissions are not so good. I have a 2001 dodge 5.9 cummins with over 300k miles on it and have replaced/rebuilt everything but engine lol.


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## vlc

I have both. F350 DRW 7.3l with a 12' dump and a Chevy 2500 6.0l. And I want to add an f350 SRW this winter. The dually is a beast and I love plowing with it. It'll move mountains of snow. Never had a problem with traction in lots or driveways. But I also run a 2 yd v box filled with magic salt, so there's plenty of weight in the back. The only downside is maneuverability in tight areas.


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## mud

I can respect that you want to start a business.

First thing. If you want to wheel. Buy a second truck. It dont matter what you buy, its going to cost a lot more to maintain and will break more often if your thrashing it off road. This comes from experience here. It'll be different for your buddies. They can borrow a car or get a ride if they are broken down. You will need your truck.

Secondly. I have two trucks with plows. One gas, the other with a 7.3. The 7.3 usually stays hooked to the trailer all winter. Can it plow? You bet it can, BUT, the gas 3/4 ton can as well and its cost per hour is significantly lower.

Honestly if the other side of my business did not involve pulling gooseneck trailers with a loaded weight of 10k plus every day I would have sold that 7.3 a long time ago. When it comes time for replacement I will probably end up going to one of the new gas engines. Purchase and maintenance costs are so much lower and with the cost of fuel being so different the numbers just don't pencil out anymore.

I would also strongly recomend you go for the auto trans. I get wanting to have a stick. I prefer them myself for everything but plowing. The truth is you will hate it for plowing though. Not only will your leg take a beating from all the shifting (along with your clutch) reverse is going to be pitifully slow. An auto truck will run circles around a stick for plowing snow.

In the end if you really want to plow my recommendation would be a gas 3/4 ton or SRW 1 ton (depending on how your state and insurance works because that can make a difference as well). If you want to wheel, get a second truck. One that it doesn't matter if its broke.

For what its worth. My gas truck is a 2000 F-250 with a 5.4 and came with a 8 foot unimount pro plow, brand new tires, new battery, and recent front end work with 138k miles on it for 4500 bucks. Thats a rig that can start making you money right away for half of what you might be lucky to find a diesel rig for. I should also mention that I sold that plow for two grand and put a brand new snowdogg 9'6" v plow on it. My total investment is still less than 8500 bucks. You just cant touch those numbers with a diesel, especially a dually even with 100k more miles on em.


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## Mike_PS

no need for personal attacks towards someone...stating your opinion, etc. is fine but no need to get nasty, call names, etc., etc.

thanks, we would appreciate it


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## Mark Oomkes

But my post was a compliment, Mike!


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## WIPensFan

Mark Oomkes;1724736 said:


> Well said. I was working on a reply similar to this yesterday stating "it's really none of your business what the kid wants to buy" but l lost it.
> 
> This is between his parents and him. Sure, we can give advice, although he asked about DRW vs SRW and not whether he can afford a DRW and it's fuel or the truck in and of itself.
> 
> If it's a mistake, let the kid make it and he can learn from it. If it's not, good for him. Sometimes the best lessons in life are the ones learned the hard way.
> 
> jasonv appears to have shown his true colours. It used to be Unimogs and Tatra's, now it's minitrucks. Connor\Tatra reincarnated.
> 
> kimber, what business is it of yours if a 16 YO wants a DRW? It's America and a relatively free country. It's none of your business what a 16 YO kid "needs". It's legal and if he can afford it, go for it. I would think someone with a username of kimber would get that, unless it has nothing to do with a fine handgun. Then again, you were sorely mistaken about building one's own firearms, so you can be sorely mistaken about this. Calling him Seedd is rude. You and jasonv are about the only ones telling this kid what to do when it's none of your business. It's between him and his parents and nothing to do with what he "needs".
> 
> Answer his original question. This is just like the guy who asks about buying a Boss or Curtis and a bunch of people jump in telling him he should buy a Daniels Wing Plow. Why can't some people just answer a question and provide real life experience?


Agreed, nice post Mark.

I remember being a kid this age once, and wanting lots of stuff. Now with the internet you can research everything and get advice and opinions galore. Not everything is what you want to hear but it is useful in making decisions. I've learned quite a bit just from reading this thread. I'm also glad the OP identified himself as a teenager and wasn't trying to hide that fact like some do on here. Good luck kid.


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## TokyoDrift99

LopatLT7495;1724467 said:


> Ok let me start by saying way to go some of you for knowing how to try and crush a kids dreams. Now I drive a 2003 4x4 dodge 3500 cummins dually with a 6spd. I bought it when I was 17 for $23,000 so I don't think anyone should say that it can't be done when they don't know someone. As for the 20mpg being a joke well my truck slightly modified about 475-500 at the wheels gets between 19-21 mpg on the highway and that's hand calculated!!! Try again saying its a joke. As for flex I can flex my dually out until the tire is hitting the inner fender well and the rear tire is still planted on the ground. When I bought my truck I had no need what so ever for dually, I loved the way they looked and wanted a truck I could keep for a long time. I do not regret buying it at all, the truck is a beast on and off road ( I have gone off road many times to pull my fire departments F-550 mini pumper out after getting stuck) I have never one got my truck stuck no matter where I have taken it. Yes fuel is expensive but so is gas these days and I'd rather pay for fuel and have tank like power instead of paying to fill up an f-150 grocery getter. And I just bought a plow for my truck and have seen many dually plow trucks. For the OP, speaking from being in pretty much the same place you are in, I say go for your dreams! Dually pickups are great and a cummins is a bullet proof engine. Save your money and make your dreams come true. Good luck man and don't let people tell you that you can't make your dreams come true!


Thanks for being one of the only people who understands. I don't need a dually, or a deisel, or a truck, but I WANT one. That is all that matters, people don't NEED a F-350 platinum, they could get a stripper model XL, but they WANT it.


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## TokyoDrift99

Kcorey;1724767 said:


> im not sure what your intentions of plowing are (residential, commercial) but i had a 96 chevy k3500 diesel dually with mason dump for a little while, i plow mostly all residential with exception of 2 small parking lots and i was not very happy with the dually i even put 1000-1500 pounds in back. I sold that and bought a 99 chevy 2500 single wheel gas truck and i am MUCH happier with it. Plows like a dream and with some weight in back i only use 4wd on my steep driveways. I am no pro but just giving some friendly advice of what i found to work better for me. Also the cummins are great engines, however dodges rot around the engine and the transmissions are not so good. I have a 2001 dodge 5.9 cummins with over 300k miles on it and have replaced/rebuilt everything but engine lol.


Yeah the auto trans in old Dodges are JUNK, I plan to get a stick because it is less to go wrong and more fun to drive.


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## TokyoDrift99

mud;1724922 said:


> I can respect that you want to start a business.
> 
> First thing. If you want to wheel. Buy a second truck. It dont matter what you buy, its going to cost a lot more to maintain and will break more often if your thrashing it off road. This comes from experience here. It'll be different for your buddies. They can borrow a car or get a ride if they are broken down. You will need your truck.
> 
> Secondly. I have two trucks with plows. One gas, the other with a 7.3. The 7.3 usually stays hooked to the trailer all winter. Can it plow? You bet it can, BUT, the gas 3/4 ton can as well and its cost per hour is significantly lower.
> 
> Honestly if the other side of my business did not involve pulling gooseneck trailers with a loaded weight of 10k plus every day I would have sold that 7.3 a long time ago. When it comes time for replacement I will probably end up going to one of the new gas engines. Purchase and maintenance costs are so much lower and with the cost of fuel being so different the numbers just don't pencil out anymore.
> 
> I would also strongly recomend you go for the auto trans. I get wanting to have a stick. I prefer them myself for everything but plowing. The truth is you will hate it for plowing though. Not only will your leg take a beating from all the shifting (along with your clutch) reverse is going to be pitifully slow. An auto truck will run circles around a stick for plowing snow.
> 
> In the end if you really want to plow my recommendation would be a gas 3/4 ton or SRW 1 ton (depending on how your state and insurance works because that can make a difference as well). If you want to wheel, get a second truck. One that it doesn't matter if its broke.
> 
> For what its worth. My gas truck is a 2000 F-250 with a 5.4 and came with a 8 foot unimount pro plow, brand new tires, new battery, and recent front end work with 138k miles on it for 4500 bucks. Thats a rig that can start making you money right away for half of what you might be lucky to find a diesel rig for. I should also mention that I sold that plow for two grand and put a brand new snowdogg 9'6" v plow on it. My total investment is still less than 8500 bucks. You just cant touch those numbers with a diesel, especially a dually even with 100k more miles on em.


To me it seems like the numbers do pencil out if it weren't for $100 oil changes. I like gas trucks, and my cousin has a '98 ish Chevy 3/4 ton that is set up for a plow (push plates, pump, and the controller) that he would sell to me for $1,400 (when I get the money). Here is the kicker... it's a 454... I think a 454 would be REALLY sweet, but the truck has a few problems. The front end is wonky (Thanks IFS) and it doesn't run that great. I just cant justify dumping money into it to repair at 110,000 miles in a truck that has been run HARD all of its life. And on top of that get around 11 mpg.


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## Whiffyspark

TokyoDrift99;1725153 said:


> Yeah the auto trans in old Dodges are JUNK, I plan to get a stick because it is less to go wrong and more fun to drive.


Eh

The manuals aren't that much better. They have a weak clutch. Check out the prices on southbend clutches.

They may be more fun to drive. But they get old at the same time

You can get a built auto for it. 3-5k depending on who and how strong you want it


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## linckeil

TokyoDrift99;1725150 said:


> I don't need a dually, or a deisel, or a truck, but I WANT one. That is all that matters, people don't NEED a F-350 platinum, they could get a stripper model XL, but they WANT it.


hey - do whatever YOU want to do. if a diesel dually truck is something you have no need for, but want, then go for it. its up to you.

that said, i want, have wanted, and will continue to want to certain material things in my life. then a little something called reality sets it.

i know that if i were in your shoes i would not be buying 50 thousand dollars worth of anything that i have absoultely no use for, will cost me money to maintain, insurance, register, and put fuel in. but the worst part on top of all these huge expenses - the truck will loose value every day that goes by and every mile that it is driven.

thats this little thing called reality poking up it's ugly head. and reality strikes every day. at your age you may not have a grip on it just yet, but you will, and when it sets in, your perspective will most definetly change. hopefully your parents have given you a similiar message before you go and do something rash.

but again, do whatever you think is in your best interest.


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## quigleysiding

linckeil;1725253 said:


> hey - do whatever YOU want to do. if a diesel dually truck is something you have no need for, but want, then go for it. its up to you.
> 
> that said, i want, have wanted, and will continue to want to certain material things in my life. then a little something called reality sets it.
> 
> i know that if i were in your shoes i would not be buying 50 thousand dollars worth of anything that i have absoultely no use for, will cost me money to maintain, insurance, register, and put fuel in. but the worst part on top of all these huge expenses - the truck will loose value every day that goes by and every mile that it is driven.
> 
> thats this little thing called reality poking up it's ugly head. and reality strikes every day. at your age you may not have a grip on it just yet, but you will, and when it sets in, your perspective will most definetly change. hopefully your parents have given you a similiar message before you go and do something rash.
> 
> but again, do whatever you think is in your best interest.


He didnt say he wanted to spend 50 grand on a truck. He wanted to know if he could plow with a lifted dual wheel dodge diesel. He likes the older body style.

Whch we know he can. My dually plows nice. The dump bed and sander adds just the right amount of weight. Its not a diesel though. Most storms it stays in 2 wheel.


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## linckeil

quigleysiding;1725280 said:


> He didnt say he wanted to spend 50 grand on a truck. He wanted to know if he could plow with a lifted dual wheel dodge diesel. He likes the older body style.


I've read about 3 different threads about 16 year olds getting trucks they don't need with their parent's financing it - I must be confusing this with another one... I guess it's the new fad.

ok, so he's not spending 50 grand. so substitute 20 grand into my post. the point is still the same.

and if you didn't notice, the thread has transformed into a much broader discussion than whether or not you can plow with a dually.


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## WIPensFan

linckeil;1725477 said:


> I've read about 3 different threads about 16 year olds getting trucks they don't need with their parent's financing it - I must be confusing this with another one... I guess it's the new fad.
> 
> ok, so he's not spending 50 grand. so substitute 20 grand into my post. the point is still the same.
> 
> and if you didn't notice, the thread has transformed into a much broader discussion than whether or not you can plow with a dually.


Actually, substitute $9,000 into your post.


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## linckeil

WIPensFan;1725514 said:


> Actually, substitute $9,000 into your post.


lets make it $2,000 while we are at it. just ratchet the maintainence expense way up.


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## quigleysiding

linckeil;1725546 said:


> lets make it $2,000 while we are at it. just ratchet the maintainence expense way up.


Ok http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/4275011703.html


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## LopatLT7495

OP your welcome i just wanted to share my story since I know how you feel. Don't listen to negative people, if you really want it and have good work ethic you can do anything.


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## Meezer

quigleysiding;1725640 said:


> Ok http://nh.craigslist.org/cto/4275011703.html


$2K + the cost of rebuilding the tranny for starters........


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## mud

TokyoDrift99;1725165 said:


> To me it seems like the numbers do pencil out if it weren't for $100 oil changes. I like gas trucks, and my cousin has a '98 ish Chevy 3/4 ton that is set up for a plow (push plates, pump, and the controller) that he would sell to me for $1,400 (when I get the money). Here is the kicker... it's a 454... I think a 454 would be REALLY sweet, but the truck has a few problems. The front end is wonky (Thanks IFS) and it doesn't run that great. I just cant justify dumping money into it to repair at 110,000 miles in a truck that has been run HARD all of its life. And on top of that get around 11 mpg.


Its not just the oil changes. Parts in general are MUCH more expensive on diesel trucks, and trust me, they do break. It seems every time I have to put my 7.3 in the shop I can figure on spending about a grand, and it seems like I have a problem like that at least once a year. This is my 5th 7.3 and I have owned a couple of cummins engines as well. The current one has less than 130k on it at the moment and the rest I ran to 300k plus. Every one broke down at one time or another. The cummins trucks were slightly less expensive to repair but not much truth be told though I hated the cabs so I went back to fords.

Over the years gas trucks have been consistently less expensive to maintain and run at least for me and that is especially true now with the large difference in fuel prices. Not to mention the fact that when it gets cold you do have to take precautions to prevent gelling and if not plugged in you will possibly have troubles getting it started especially in below zero temps. My 7.3 will start down to about zero. Colder than that. It better be plugged in.

You might wish to stay away from that 454 as well. Sounds like it has been pretty well used up and in my experience with the old big blocks ford and chevy alike 11mpg would be pretty optimistic.

Chevy's I would probably look at the 6.0 powered trucks, unless you found a nice 5.7 vortech with lower miles that was in good shape. Ford I would be looking at the 5.4 or even the v-10 trucks (pretty similar mileage) in dodge's while I am not personally a fan of any of their gas motors I think as long as you stay away from the 4.7 you will be ok. 5.2 5.9 or the hemi's will do ok for what you want. Also on the dodges. Dont discount that auto. I agree it sucks in stock form (hell most auto's do). But when it goes their are proven methods to bullet proof them.

Like I said before too. Stay away from the DRW trucks. I agree that they are pretty sweet but being lower geared on average and having two more tires out back they get worse fuel economy than the srw trucks and those tires for what ever reason seem to wear faster. Your looking at 800-1000k bucks to replace a set of tires on the vintage of trucks your looking at for stock sized tires of half decent quality. Figure more like 1200 to 1500 for a dually.

My advice to you really is to sit down and look at the numbers. It sounds like you are trying to start and build a successful business so for now look at getting something that will work but is more cost effective. Remember 5 grand less spent now, is five grand less before you turn a profit later. The cool trucks and toys can come later once your established.


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