# WSJ Blog Post on Radiant Heated Runways



## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

Given the relentless intensity of this season's winter and its impact on population centers across America, _Wall Street Journal_ blogger Scott McCartney vets radiant heat trace technology for snow management of airport runways:
http://on.wsj.com/1gVR7zJ?mod=wsj_video_email

Article may be accessed through 
http://money.msn.com/investing/post--heated-runways-a-top-priority-for-airports


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

No way. Great Idea in theory but when it's 2 degrees and wind chills are -15 how do you keep ground temps above freezing or above 40 degrees realistically to keep snow from sticking. And if one airport has it and the other doesn't it doesn't help also in a blizzard the planes ice up and they can't take off. Just another wing nut idea. I really like the end of the article where they interview the guy with a 7,000 sqft driveway "they could use this at train stations and bus terminals" looney toon. He said it cost $800 for 24 hrs. I could give him two shovelers for 24 hours and it would still cost less. CI do see them around here once in a while but they don't seem to work all that well when it's coming down 2" an hour.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Curious, what does wind chill have to do with pavement temps? 

And once it's at 40*, or whatever, it's maintained at 40*. Sort of like your house. 

This is not unrealistic, there are numerous sidewalks around the country (world?) that have heated sidewalks that don't need shoveling\plowing\salting. This is just on a huge scale comparatively. I service a couple accounts that have these. It works. Even with -10* actual air temps.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Drive thru downtown Holland Michigan during any type of snowfall and say it doesn't work. 2" and hour lake effect looks bad ass downtown with the trees covered but the streets and walks just wet.

Heat a 12" or whatever it is runway up to 40 degrees and I'd think that mass would hold some heat pretty good...


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## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

Interesting responses so far.

"When does it become cost effective when you factor in all that lost revenue" is an important takeaway.

Regarding the example of a working system: 

automatic snow management for $800 for 24 hours ($33.33/hour) 
the entire area is probably cleared simultaneously
a completely dry-and therefore safe-pavement/sidewalk for a healthcare facility at upstate New York utility rates
no chemical residues impacting landscaping or the environment
no piles of snow for patients and employees to navigate
no queuing, scheduling or logistics

It's probably worth it for the convenience and the litigation mitigation.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

framer1901;1774474 said:


> Drive thru downtown Holland Michigan during any type of snowfall and say it doesn't work. 2" and hour lake effect looks bad ass downtown with the trees covered but the streets and walks just wet.
> 
> Heat a 12" or whatever it is runway up to 40 degrees and I'd think that mass would hold some heat pretty good...


For some reason I am never able to make it there during a storm, but that is one of the areas I was thinking of.

EGR has heated walks in Gaslight Village.

Seems like Monroe Plaza or something had heated walks\drives too.

Vail or some ski resort in CO did it as well. I remember seeing the story here on PS.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Image the greenhouse gas emmision or BTU's required to heat Ohare's runways, or imagine the equipment, material and labor cost to keep them clear - way above me.

I knew a guy that used to have a shop in downtown Holland, not on 8th where the whole deal is heated but 9th or on a corner where they just did the walks - I remember him saying he was surcharged by lineal feet of walk.

Turn the heat off anyways - 50ton is 15 minutes away from my bin, a couple more nights of easy breathing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

framer1901;1774553 said:


> Image the greenhouse gas emmision or BTU's required to heat Ohare's runways, or imagine the equipment, material and labor cost to keep them clear - way above me.


You ought to see the equipment they have for clearing the areas around the terminals and gates, not even the runways. The emissions from just starting those up is amazing.

I flew in there once when it was there. I swear they had every single brand and size loader, ag tractor, skid steer, pusher, and plow parked along every foot of fence around the entire airport. Strictly the gate areas, this was not O'Hares equipment for the runways and taxiways.


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## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

framer1901;1774553 said:


> Image the greenhouse gas emmision or BTU's required to heat Ohare's runways, or imagine the equipment, material and labor cost to keep them clear - way above me.


A lot of energy no matter how it's done. The following is from two years ago

http://www.airportimprovement.com/content/story.php?article=00366


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

Well being in the construction business even on a residential level using radiant heat in bathrooms and kitchens. You can't use 40 degree water to make something 40 degrees it's in the hundreds of degrees and when you take that number to the distances the pipes would be running it would be very hot water at the source to get the required temperature at the end. You would have to keep it on a long time before a storm to get the temperature to where it needs to be. If you turn it off and the pavement or ground below freezes it would take a long time to get that to temperature. Asphalt drives and concrete walks aren't 12" thick either so there's no comparison to little residential structures like that. There is initial cost, fuel, but also maintenance and repairs ie pipe bursts, pump failures, etc. that would also come with it as well as a shorter lifetime on the pavement from constant freeze thaw. Same can be said for salt and plowing but there aren't water pipes below a normal surface to worry about when you have a pothole repair. I think it's a great idea but not on that scale not yet at least. And the figure $33 per hour is one storm no maintenance or initial upfront or replacement costs.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

90plow;1774670 said:


> Well being in the construction business even on a residential level using radiant heat in bathrooms and kitchens. You can't use 40 degree water to make something 40 degrees it's in the hundreds of degrees and when you take that number to the distances the pipes would be running it would be very hot water at the source to get the required temperature at the end. You would have to keep it on a long time before a storm to get the temperature to where it needs to be. If you turn it off and the pavement or ground below freezes it would take a long time to get that to temperature. Asphalt drives and concrete walks aren't 12" thick either so there's no comparison to little residential structures like that. There is initial cost, fuel, but also maintenance and repairs ie pipe bursts, pump failures, etc. that would also come with it as well as a shorter lifetime on the pavement from constant freeze thaw. Same can be said for salt and plowing but there aren't water pipes below a normal surface to worry about when you have a pothole repair. I think it's a great idea but not on that scale not yet at least. And the figure $33 per hour is one storm no maintenance or initial upfront or replacement costs.


#1 Runways are at least 18" thick. And have far more base that is relatively unaffected by freeze\thaw cycles since planes weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds are landing on them. The base is compacted to the point hammer drills are needed to "pound" in the stakes needed for pouring concrete.

#2 Obviously you have no idea how these systems work. They get turned on in the fall and shut off in the spring. They do not work on a thermostat, which is why I said once they hit 40*, they stay at 40*. So you don't need near the heat that you are thinking. Relay heaters and pumps, sure. But it isn't like steam is being pumped through these systems.

3# The systems at the locations I maintain are very reliable. Yes, a pump might go out. Or they might not be turned on in the fall, but one is over 15 years old without a torn up sidewalk or driveway to fix a leak. Sure, it would take some engineering. But it is not nearly as unreasonable as you think.

PS Potholes on a runway? Sure, whatever.


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

Ok again I doubt you can compare this to a sidewalk or driveway.... Not saying impossible saying its impractical and I said in the future maybe now not cost effective. And I said 12" because I have no idea how thick they really are. And yes I'm sure they still get cracks potholes/sink holes in runways it's still pavement is it not?


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Isn't that really one of the great ideas of heating a garage or house floor slab, how the mass of the slab retains the heat?

Oh the math involved in comparing the costs of a heated Ohare verses one maintained by 230 pieces of equipment. Hell, the costs of the pencils alone figuring it out would feed 100 children for a year.

I'd just like to be the guy driving the 30mph 7500ton per hour snowblower.

In all seriousness, we have a few paver drives in our area that I see are heated, downtown is heated - what you can see close up looks just like or better than any other road. Yes, I've see them tear up a walk in town every now and then where there was some problem with the system. Even with any system, an airport would have to have some type of backup to cover a system failure, could you imagine Ohare rousting 500 capable people out of bed and finding 230 pieces for them to operate, shoot, I can't get shovelers on a consistant basis.

We service three homes that are multi millon dollar deals and have driveways that would challange billy goats - I always wondered why they didn't heat them from day one.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

90plow;1774702 said:


> Ok again I doubt you can compare this to a sidewalk or driveway.... Not saying impossible saying its impractical and I said in the future maybe now not cost effective. And I said 12" because I have no idea how thick they really are. And yes I'm sure they still get cracks potholes/sink holes in runways it's still pavement is it not?


Well, if you eliminate the freeze\thaw cycles which cause most potholes.

And I can't even imagine the liability for a sinkhole in a runway. Pretty sure they are engineered a bit better than that. 300+ people in a 100,000# plus airplane landing at 160 knots. Pretty sure there aren't sinkholes in runways.


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## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

Calculations of costs for electrical rates for a driveway from another thread (New England rather than Michigan rates used) are below. Airports may get special "weather event" rates if the costs of not moving passengers outweigh the costs of clear runways.

For states from Maryland to Maine 
snow and ice melting using electric radiant heating 
annual operating + investment (install labor and concrete sold separately) costs of a 1000 sq ft drive 
for five (5) snow events PER YEAR can be 
as low as $ 217.22 per season or 
as high as $ 571.87 per season

Compare those numbers to a typical 4-month plowing contract for a 1000 sq ft drive in your area.

Given the following inputs, anyone can do the general math, but I provide it below (and feel free to check mine):

http://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/
- $0.10 to $0.1755 from MD to ME (2010 latest data, accessed June 2013)
- 1000 sq ft, which for the math in this example I configured to 50 x 20'

If we choose retail availability from a noted vendor like MOR Electric Heating, http://tinyurl.com/m5sjp9k , 
for a 50 x19.5' 
(closest mat coverage, 
two 15' long mats and one 20' long mat (50' total) 
by six 36" wide mats and one 18" wide mat (19.5' total), 
which may be more than is actually needed) 
operating at the optimal 50 watts/sq ft:

975 sq ft x 50W/ft ÷ 1000 to convert = 48.75 kW required for operation

So, operation cost per kWH for northeast US is between $4.875 and $8.56 for the driveway; 
per snow event, 3-10 hours of operation (melting snow and leaving a dry surface) using sensors and controllers can be 
as low as $14.63 and as high as $85.56;
five (5) events a year, operating costs are 
as lows as $ 73.13/year and as high as $427.78/year

The upfront costs (retail), per the MOR website (accessed June 2013):

Easy Heat mats, amortized over 4-month season and 20 years (many systems are older than this):
lowest = [(2) $315 + (1) $375] x 6 + [(2) $210 + (1) $250] 
= $6700 total investment; x 4mo/12mo/20years 
Total LOW investment = $ 111.67/yr
or highest = [(2) $410 + (1) 470] x 6 + [(2) $271 + (1) $ 310] 
Total HIGH investment = $8592; x 4mo/12mo/20years 
= $ 143.20/yr

Environmental Technology Inc. sensors and controller
SIT-6E Pavement Mounted Snow & Ice Sensor, $980
CIT-1 Aerial Snow Sensor, $425
ETI Snow Switch® Model GF Pro controller, $540
Total investment =$ 1945; amortized as above (x 4mo/12mo/20years) 
= $ 32.42/yr

Certainly this has been an exceptional winter, as far as the number of weather events impacting airports (so much so the WSJ blogged about it, right?). Even the healthcare facility example of operating for 24 hours seems beyond a typical "event."


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## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

*NYT weighs in on radiant for snow management*

http://nyti.ms/1g54OJs

"As if by magic, snowflakes melted as they touched the ground in front of these upscale addresses, releasing a faint vapor that hung momentarily in the bitter cold before vanishing altogether, thanks to what is turning out to be the ultimate amenity in an unrelenting winter: heated sidewalks.

"[A]cross the street, at 530 West End Avenue, the sidewalk was equally clean, but the doorman and superintendent were nursing sore backs from shoveling. 'It's 11 a.m. and we are already tired,' said the doorman, Orlando Caraballosa. 'We wish we had it.' "


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

We have a contractor who's driveway is built with
Thé under layer hot water tubing wich You can run
In What ever lenght You need except that 
Every so many linear feet You must hook
Back to thé system and run another Line .
Indoor i made One in m'y buddy's bassement 
Ten years ago but it seems that even out door 
Ounce temp is reached it stays .... Nô pavement or cement censors , all in thé indoor unit reading return water temp .....Anyhow 
Nô mater thé storm he never shovels ..


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

Oh ya !!!! Airport runways ???? That seems
A little out of wack for any kind of décent 
System ..... The coverage needed ,,,, wow,,,
$$$$$$$$$$


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## NAC (Nov 9, 2003)

*Heated driveway*

One of my customers home which I built has heated driveway, sidewalks and his back yard patio is heated. We installed 6" of DGA sub base then an insulating layer then the pex pipe was installed in the 1" screed layer for the the pavers in the driveway and sidewalk. in the back yard patio it was an 5'-7' flagstone that was set on 6" DGA sub base then an insulating layer, 4" concrete mat with the pex pipe then the 1" mortar bed for the flagstone.


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## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

NAC;1895401 said:


> One of my customers home which I built has heated driveway, sidewalks and his back yard patio is heated. We installed 6" of DGA sub base then an insulating layer then the pex pipe was installed in the 1" screed layer for the the pavers in the driveway and sidewalk. in the back yard patio it was an 5'-7' flagstone that was set on 6" DGA sub base then an insulating layer, 4" concrete mat with the pex pipe then the 1" mortar bed for the flagstone.


How interesting!

Wouldn't you or your customer consider this an aspect of snow/ice management?

How large is the driveway, in square feet, do you happen to know? Do you happen to know what controllers and/or sensors are being used?

Thanks!


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## allagashpm (Sep 29, 2012)

I just had a customer do this on his driveway with pavers. It was a really difficult driveway to plow almost always snowblowed. It was also really steep downhill then up again to the garage. I will try to get a pic of it it looks awesome. I haven't seen it in action yet as the first storm we had the boiler hadn't been fully hooked up.


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## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

allagashpm;1895493 said:


> I just had a customer do this on his driveway with pavers. It was a really difficult driveway to plow almost always snowblowed. It was also really steep downhill then up again to the garage. I will try to get a pic of it it looks awesome. I haven't seen it in action yet as the first storm we had the boiler hadn't been fully hooked up.


I look forward to seeing them. Thanks!


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

You can fit any size driveway, it s all related to your boiler size because
You can only put so much lenght to it ,boiler are sold in diff size and price.

New home instalation
Entire new home including basement: 4000 sq/ft
Fit entire home with radiant in-floor heating, independent thermostats in each room. Install 95.1% efficient wall mount gas-fired boiler with domestic hot water heating included.
Approximate cost: $54,000.00 or $13.50 per sq/ft


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## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

F250/XLS;1895738 said:


> You can fit any size driveway, it s all related to your boiler size because
> You can only put so much lenght to it ,boiler are sold in diff size and price.
> 
> New home instalation
> ...


This is the type of investment that can be amortized over the (expected) life of the system. If one can manage a 4000 sq/ft home, it's likely one can manage an annual installation cost of $2700 ($225/month) for the entire home: amazing!


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

KAM2009;1895785 said:


> This is the type of investment that can be amortized over the (expected) life of the system. If one can manage a 4000 sq/ft home, it's likely one can manage an annual installation cost of $2700 ($225/month) for the entire home: amazing!


Exactly ,,, thats a similar set up has my cosin
He made an extension to his property for
His business and decided to wire up the
Main bathroom to the boiler ,,,, at smaller scale ,, that upper set up is not a common one most of thé Time
They do thé bassement garage and household hot water
That brings thé cost down to more then half dû to thé fact that your
Basement was going to get a cement floor anyhow,,,
Thé cost of doing so to an upper level floor
Is a hugh cost ,,,, i should actually ask a buddy
Of mine he did his main floor like that ,, just for fun
Of knowing thé cost ,,,, it also involves an extra framing cost.


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## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

While radiant can manage typical/normal weather events, I wonder if there were any systems in place in Buffalo during last month's anomaly...

There is typically an appreciable reduction in operation costs for both indoor and outdoor systems over alternate applications. (Let alone the $$-value of not having to clear a driveway manually before going to work, for example.)


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

How do you think Grandview got that driveway done in 5 minutes?


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## allagashpm (Sep 29, 2012)

Here is a pic of the drive. Doesnt really do it justice. It was even steeper before but when they tore out the old one they also took some more ledge out.
I was anxious to see how it worked and got a call two weeks ago I was still going to have to take care of it this winter. Apparently the piping was tested at the factory for a certain pressure and temperature, but it wasn't comparable to this circumstance. I am not sure of the details but long story short when they fired everything up 5 zones burst. They are going to have to take up the driveway this spring and redo everything.

Certainly brings the issue of maintenance up when doing this and the fact that there is no way to access it without tearing everything up.


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## TRKling (Nov 1, 2008)

Don't know about Holland Michigan - But we service a large corporation with miles of heated sidewalks. It's not a water based system, its Glycol.

I'd say it is 95% efficient. Get the right scenario with wind, snowfall, and temp - this system sometimes struggles to keep it melted; I suspect its due to not being run at a hot enough temperature.

In reality, it might be cheaper for airports to install it. Think long-term on cost of a climate controlled runway - You wouldn't need Potassium Acetate (or?) to deice, much snow removal equipment and the runway repairs from the freeze/thaw.

What does an airport care what the operational or installation cost are? All's it will take is justification for its very existence. We are ultimately paying for it, one way or another.


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## Sprag-O (Dec 31, 2013)

The only place I know of around here with inside parking (10 car parking garage under building) has a heated concrete ramp. It's steep and otherwise would be a pain to maintain. Appears to work fairly well.


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