# Liquid De-Iceing help



## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

We are in the process of trying to figure out some application rates and need some math wizards to help !

We will be spraying at 9 gallons per min with a 10' spray boom. At what speed can i travel if i need to get 35 gallons per acre.

I have a number figured but want to just check 

Thanks in advance!


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## Metro Lawn (Nov 20, 2003)

I didn't do the exact math, but somewhere around 17 MPH


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

its around 13 mph

im not sure, somebody could check me a little , ...also did some rounding to make it easy

acre is about 45,000 / 10 foot boom - 4500 liner feet - which needs about 36 gals to be applied , if your spraying at 9 gpm, then it would take 4 mins to spray 4500 feet - so thats 1125 feet per min x 60 mins = 67500 / 5280 = 12.78 MPH


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

how do you know youre spraying 9gpm?

you need 30-40 gpa so...........at 9gpm that would take you, 4 min to travel 1 mile and that's....roughly 20mph


how do know youre spraying 9gpm?........what P.S.I. (at the nozzle) what kind of tip's are you useing?......how far apart are they?

9gpm is a BUNCH! i would guess that youre not spraying that much but i don't know?

PJ


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## RacerBren (Nov 6, 2005)

We run our rigs at 10 mph to get 35 gallons of Magic per acre. I would think you will be there or slightly higher.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

powerjoke;605220 said:


> how do you know youre spraying 9gpm?
> 
> you need 30-40 gpa so...........at 9gpm that would take you, 4 min to travel 1 mile and that's....roughly 20mph
> 
> ...


Pj, i think hes trying to build himself a rig .... I dont think hes at the point to take into consideration the placement of the tips and type ... eitherway what ever he chooses if his flow truley is 9 gpm , with a full 10 foot boom , then i think he would be around 13


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Thanks for the help guys, I saw metro said about 8 mph on his units and im trying to get double the gallons per min but have a couple of extra feet of spray boom. I was thinking about 14-15 mph IF i can get the 9 gpm

Thanks for the help


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

by my calculations 13 what are you going to use for a pump?


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Im thinking we are going to use a Lesco fert sprayer. it has a 5 hp Honda on it and the Lesco rep said it would get 9 gpm all day. We will probably take the tank off and put a 600 gallon tank on the truck but use the Lesco pump, motor and hose real set up.
Now I just need to get some help on nozzel selection
I realy need to sit down and just build his thing but we are still bidding realy heavy right now


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

ill send you some specs of mine later


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

Elite:......i don't know how you could tell him that 13mph is how fast he need's to travel,.....here's why lol

it doesnt matter if the pump will put out 140 gpm..........the PSI at the spray bar is what matter's....and it doesnt matter how wide youre spray boom is either.......the nozzle spaceing is what matter's thier too.

you'll need stream nozzles for drivelanes, so the cars can spread the chemical

you'll need fan nozzles for parking stall's (without traffic) for even coverage.

now.........the nozzle size, spaceing, and boom PSI is what will determine GPMspeed witch will determine youre travel speed!

i don't know much but i'll help what i can, i have been around sprayer's for ever and calcium is just another chemical witch need's to be delivered at precise controll. 

i have one sprayer on the 5500 that has a 1 1/2" hypro centrifigul hydrualic driven pump........that pump is capable of putting out 110gpm but do i demand it to?.....no

here's a pic of it

PJ


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

elite1msmith;605588 said:


> ill send you some specs of mine later


It's latter......


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## lawnproslawncar (Dec 9, 2007)

I'm curious here.
With you bulk setups, is it a concentrate or dump and go?


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

SnoFarmer;605622 said:


> It's latter......[/QUOTE
> 
> later, no i ment later - like tomarrow - did i spell it wrong?


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

lawnproslawncar;605636 said:


> I'm curious here.
> With you bulk setups, is it a concentrate or dump and go?


typically it's already diluted. i don't know if you can buy stronger stuff 

as long as the end result, (calcium at least) is 32% or 11.3lbs per gallon you are set.
so to answer the Q'........it's a pump and go kind of thing for me

PJ


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

elite1msmith;605637 said:


> SnoFarmer;605622 said:
> 
> 
> > It's latter......
> ...


trying to edit post eh' lol

its latter and still no pic's


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## lawnproslawncar (Dec 9, 2007)

I wouldn't mind getting setup for this but there is a lot of startup cost to being able to apply it.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

has beeb built yet... this weekend.. i just know the calculations on it


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

lawnproslawncar;605658 said:


> I wouldn't mind getting setup for this but there is a lot of startup cost to being able to apply it.


i know youre post wasnt really a Q......but i turned it into one for ya  lol

i all depend's on what you think a LOT is?.....

is it free?...NO, what is?

is it something that will pay for itself? Yes,

will it directly replace salt.....NONONONO

will it help cut down salt useage YES

PJ


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

elite1msmith;605660 said:


> has beeb built yet... this weekend.. i just know the calculations on it


what the hell is a "beeb" :confused.....j/k


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

funny....

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
lat·ter  /ˈlætər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lat-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-adjective
1.	being the second mentioned of two (distinguished from former): I prefer the latter offer to the former one.
2.	more advanced in time; later: in these latter days of human progress.
3.	near or comparatively near to the end: the latter part of the century.
4.	Obsolete. last; final.

it's latter... see #2


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

powerjoke;605594 said:


> Elite:......i don't know how you could tell him that 13mph is how fast he need's to travel,.....here's why lol
> 
> it doesnt matter if the pump will put out 140 gpm..........the PSI at the spray bar is what matter's....and it doesnt matter how wide youre spray boom is either.......the nozzle spaceing is what matter's thier too.
> 
> ...


im kinda confused myself.

the boom width DOES matter. the reason why metro can claim that he can apply at nearly 10 mph, with a 5GPM pump , is becasue his boom spray is 6 or 7 feet wide. Think about it... if you only had one nozzle, fan spray of 18 inches, and you were pumping 5 gpm on that.... in order to make sure that your appling the 30 G per ACRE, you would be driving at like 25 or faster...because the entire 5 gpm would be flowing out of that one nozzle(provided he had a nozzle rated for 5gpm)

boom Psi , has little to do with it, we really dont care about how much force is behind it. you need to care about flow rate. Increasing or decreasing your PSI, is adjustable , just like your speed. he could turn the pressure up, which would increase his flow rate, so he could drive faster...its all adjustable. the only reason to care about PSI, would be recommened PSI range for the tips, drifting effeccts, minimual working pressure for diaphram nozzles, and any flow or psi loss due to things like back flow preventor valvues

i dont know what pump excatly he was gonna use, but he also didnt state it. i assume like me , hes aiming for 9 gpm of acctual flow rate - based on your recommendations to me streaming nozzles every 10 inch - so a 10 foot boom has 12 nozzles... 9 gpm divided by 12 nozzels = .75 gpm on each nozzle tip , then he must do the weight conversion to get more exact. As long as he has a pump set up , that is GREATER that what his total nozzles add to , then his nozzles will be regulating the flow....

now this is all based on math at this point, setting up your system , running it , and testing it , will tell you exactly what you need to do to adjust it. things like your pump , might state that it can do 9 gpm, but i found in reallity its like 8 gpm with little pressure behind it. so as PJ stated , you really need to have a pump that can over do it.


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

Superior L & L;605052 said:


> We will be spraying at 9 gallons per min with a 10' spray boom. !


Again....how do you know youre spraying at 9gpm?


Superior L & L;605573 said:


> it has a 5 hp Honda on it
> 
> Now I just need to get some help on nozzel selection


what type of pump.... i am guessing a hypro 4roller or maybe a duiaphram?
the nozzle's are one of the factor's that determines how many GPM you will spray at. and need's to be figured out before you can say "we will be spraying at 9gpm"



elite1msmith;605930 said:


> im kinda confused myself.
> 
> the boom width DOES matter.
> 
> ...


hmmmm.......it's not rocket science. it's simple physic's.....ie. friction/restriction VS. force/PSI

Elite why dont you go play with the rest of the kids while us grown up's talk. lol

PJ


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

well its pretty clean that a 300 gpm pump will put out more than a 30 gpm pump. how ever a 300 gpm pump rated at 10 psi , and a 300 gpm pump rated at 100 psi , should both put out 300 gpm just at different pressures.

PJ i know you have been around sprayers since before me, but IF he has nozzels, and have a rating total between all of them , at 9 gpm (when the sums are added) and he has a pump that can produce more flow than 9 gpm at the proper workiing psi, then his NOZZLES, as you have suggested will be the restrictors, and they will determin how fast he drives... so if you nozzzle output, is 9 gpm, spread over a 10 foot boom , the YES 13 mph will be the approx, travel speed if he was spraying water

Pj if you dont believe me, then give me the size boom , and nozzle specs for your rig and ill tell you the speed you should be at...(using water) and you can double check me to see if im correct


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

elite1msmith;605956 said:


> well its pretty clean that a 300 gpm pump will put out more than a 30 gpm pump. how ever a 300 gpm pump rated at 10 psi , and a 300 gpm pump rated at 100 psi , should both put out 300 gpm just at different pressures.


oh really?..... first of all how are you going to get a 30gpm pump put out 300gpm?......this i gotta hear lol

Back to youre statement "PSI don't matter"....here's a Q' for ya.
so youre saying that no more liquid will come out of a 1/2" hole if it's got 100PSI behind it than if it had 10PSI behind it? ......

pj


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

powerjoke;605963 said:


> oh really?..... first of all how are you going to get a 30gpm pump put out 300gpm?......this i gotta hear lol if you had a different pump. both rated at a max of 300, then they should both pruduce close to that - i dont see why you would bother asking which has more out put, when you give an exaple of a pump that is 10 times more flow capacity
> Back to youre statement "PSI don't matter"....here's a Q' for ya.
> so youre saying that no more liquid will come out of a 1/2" hole if it's got 100PSI behind it than if it had 10PSI behind it? ......
> 
> pj


Psi really doesnt matter for the purpose of setting up a system , after he can ajust to get the best results, but you have to start somewhere....

you get more out of 100 psi hole, is what i would think, because in all my sprayer manuels , it says that if you turn up the pressure more comes out

but consider this, for the basic purpose of nozzel selection , the nozzles really are only effective between 20 psi , and 45 psi... and truthfully YOU total me , that a lower pressure is better for drifing reasons.

so being that is the case , you would want to select a nozzle that has the proper caluclated flow out put, at a low psi , so a nozzel that has a .75 out put, at 20-25 psi , would work , if he wants to drive that fast. and he needs a pump that can produce more than 25 psi , and a flow larger than 9 pgm. from there you resitct the flow and pressure to the corrct psi , and test and adjust it

PJ you keep asking HOW DO YOU KNOW thats the out put... well you dont, its a guess.... you add up the nozzles, and have faith in the nozzle manufacture that they provided you with proper specs.. im sure they know there product


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## af7850 (Oct 15, 2008)

powerjoke;605963 said:


> oh really?..... first of all how are you going to get a 30gpm pump put out 300gpm?......this i gotta hear lol
> 
> pj


I don't think that's what he meant.

A pump's head, which is simply the pump's ability to work, is a variable figure which is inversely proportionate to other system forces such as resistance, friction, etc.

In this application, pressure (psi) is a significant source of resistance. As system pressure increases, the pump's ability to operate is inhibited, resulting in lower flow (gpm), among other things.

When a pump is rated at a specific flow rate, that flow rate only applies at a certain pressure. For instance, using a bilge pump designed to pump 9gpm is a poor choice, because bilge pumps are typically used in a very low pressure system, and rated accordingly. As pressure increases, performance drops off quickly.

Therefore, it is very important to select a pump that will give you an acceptable flow rate at an adequate pressure.

From there, you can select nozzles which give you adequate volume (gpm) at your desired system pressure (psi), spaced at a distance which will give you proper coverage of the spray area.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

i think what your saying is all the parts need to work together


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Sort of funny, do you guys have any idea how long it is going to take to spray these lots with rinky dink sprayers like you guys are setting up? When you're used to spreading salt 20-30' wide at a time? 

Go big or go home, cuz you ain't going to be happy with the results. Trust me.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;606031 said:


> Sort of funny, do you guys have any idea how long it is going to take to spray these lots with rinky dink sprayers like you guys are setting up? When you're used to spreading salt 20-30' wide at a time?
> 
> Go big or go home, cuz you ain't going to be happy with the results. Trust me.


im only pretreating drive lanes, not entire lots, and only going to be treating smaller lots with it to start, at least in my case,

how large of a spray rig due you think is good?


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## Metro Lawn (Nov 20, 2003)

My system is set up for 10' at 8-10 MPH with a 4.5 GPM pump or about 30 gallons per lane mile. I just doubled the speed. My jets are adjustable up to 14' wide.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

elite1msmith;606046 said:


> im only pretreating drive lanes, not entire lots, and only going to be treating smaller lots with it to start, at least in my case,
> 
> how large of a spray rig due you think is good?


Then you might be good. Just don't plan on going real far, but it depends on the setup. Depends on the liquid, too.

I have a 325 gallon all seasons sprayer from Monroe Truck Equipment with a 200 GPM pump. I can spray about 16' wide with all 3 booms, this comes out to about 40 GPLM at about 15 MPH. Works OK for anti-icing but sucks for de-icing. This was using Caliber M1000. Hopefully one of the liquids or combos we will be using this year will go further for de-icing.

But for larger parking lots, the picture of my big spray rig I posted somewhere is the only way to go. Not even sure what the GPM is on that pump, just know I can cover a 30' swath with all 3 booms and go a long, long ways with 1000 gallons of Caliber. Hoping to get this working even further with one of the aforementioned combos.

Just pointing out that if you're used to spreading salt 20' or more wide with a V-box or tailgate spreader, that ain't going to happen with a sprayer with an electric pump at these volumes. Even my first sprayer started off with a 40 GPM electric pump and that was pushing it.

But good luck.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Metro Lawn;606121 said:


> My system is set up for 10' at 8-10 MPH with a 4.5 GPM pump or about 30 gallons per lane mile. I just doubled the speed. My jets are adjustable up to 14' wide.


Have you actually tried it at this speed?


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

After talking with some people on the phone today (powerjoke & others who i dont know there plowsite name) I feel like i have doubled my knowledge on liquid sprayers. Now this is not saying much but ha what ever.
With some parts list from Power Joke (Big thanks!!!!)We are going to build a totallly new set up and not use the Lesco spray unit.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

mark , i see your point about that spreader width thing, 

i honestly think you guys are over doing it in somecases. If your pump is really able to max out at 200 GPM, then if your applying 40GPLM, (which is a slightly heavy app) then that means you need to cover 5 miles in 1 min to use your pump to its fullest potentioal. after all that would pump out 200 gals, and you only need 40 per mile

Not that i would recommend maxing out your system , but if your applying 40 GPLM assuming thats a 10 foot lane = 52800 sq feet. with a 16 foot boom , means you need to drive 3300 feet , 

at 15 mph you would cover 1 lane mile using your 16 foot boom in 2.5 mins 

so in other words your flow would need to be 40 gals in 2.5 mis , which equals 16 gals per min ..... so why the need for the big 200 GPM pump? is all im asking , i would think a 50 GPM pump would do just fine in this case, or any pump that excideds your calulated flow rate by at least 30% - bigger pump, means more money , more gas, larger engine...im just saying , If your building your own system and keeping cost down , then doing the math , and not OVER buying will help you. after all, by the time the liquid gets to the end of the boom , and the nozzels, your larger pump flow , and psi , would just be reduced down to everyone elses

one more thing to think about , i have LAWN sparyers , with 12 volt pumps, and 10 foot booms, that can apply 1/1000 (so basicly 45 gals per acre) and they will travel , 4 mph, thats with no modifications, and a heavy application rate. I fail to see the difference between that little simple system, and this one, besides some basic ground speeds, and a lesser flow rate . and that has 1 electric pump


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Now I can answer this a little thanks to PJ(hopefully)

While GPM is important its not as important as pressure!
run a 200 gallon a min pump at 50% then have a recurculating valve dumping back in the tank. Place a pressure gauge after the recurculating valve and that will allow you to dial in your pressure dumping the excess back into the tank. Then you can balance the gpm with different Nozzels.
I think !!!!!!!

Hopefully i learned something today with everyones help


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Superior L & L;606202 said:


> Now I can answer this a little thanks to PJ(hopefully)
> 
> While GPM is important its not as important as pressure!
> run a 200 gallon a min pump at 50% then have a recurculating valve dumping back in the tank. Place a pressure gauge after the recurculating valve and that will allow you to dial in your pressure dumping the excess back into the tank. Then you can balance the gpm with different Nozzels.
> ...


i would think that you would pick your nozzels first and balance it after that point, the nozzle manufacture has specs on what the nozzle will put out at what pressures. so jsut match the pressures to the specs, and then adjust from that point

so run yoru pump at 50% = only a 100 gal per min flow? the use the recirculation valve to dump chemical back into the tank, so i bet 75% of that 100 gallon flow goes back in the tank , so that means your only using 25 gals effectively (just a guess) why even have a 200 pump? cant you buy one thats rated at the pressure and out put you want?


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

elite1msmith;606206 said:


> i would think that you would pick your nozzels first and balance it after that point, the nozzle manufacture has specs on what the nozzle will put out at what pressures. so jsut match the pressures to the specs, and then adjust from that point
> 
> so run yoru pump at 50% = only a 100 gal per min flow? the use the recirculation valve to dump chemical back into the tank, so i bet 75% of that 100 gallon flow goes back in the tank , so that means your only using 25 gals effectively (just a guess) why even have a 200 pump? cant you buy one thats rated at the pressure and out put you want?


Well I dont know realy cos im still trying to build my first unit BUT i know that its better to run something at 50% of its capacity than 100% that way it will not be running full throttle for 6-7 hours per night. The motor is going to last 10 times longer if i run it this way


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

elite1msmith;606206 said:


> i would think that you would pick your nozzels first and balance it after that point, the nozzle manufacture has specs on what the nozzle will put out at what pressures. so jsut match the pressures to the specs, and then adjust from that point
> 
> so run yoru pump at 50% = only a 100 gal per min flow? the use the recirculation valve to dump chemical back into the tank, so i bet 75% of that 100 gallon flow goes back in the tank , so that means your only using 25 gals effectively (just a guess) why even have a 200 pump? cant you buy one thats rated at the pressure and out put you want?


While I'll admit that I can't answer it very intelligently, one thing you are forgetting is that the GPM at the pump is not the GPM at the nozzle. You are losing volume due to friction loss in the lines, valves, elbows, even the nozzles.

Both my sprayers were set up by Monroe, so I know they went through the effort to determine what the best setup is.

You also want a recirculating valve\line so if you are using a gas engine pump you don't dead head the pump. Which also takes some volume away.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Superior L & L;606217 said:


> Well I dont know realy cos im still trying to build my first unit BUT i know that its better to run something at 50% of its capacity than 100% that way it will not be running full throttle for 6-7 hours per night. The motor is going to last 10 times longer if i run it this way


thats why i said , i WOULD NOT Either run mine at 100% , but your still way over kill. your running it at 50% then your dumping 75% of that back in to the tank for no reason, you could probablly run that pump at 25% and you would still produce the flow and pressure you need .


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;606220 said:


> While I'll admit that I can't answer it very intelligently, one thing you are forgetting is that the GPM at the pump is not the GPM at the nozzle. You are losing volume due to friction loss in the lines, valves, elbows, even the nozzles.
> 
> Both my sprayers were set up by Monroe, so I know they went through the effort to determine what the best setup is.
> 
> You also want a recirculating valve\line so if you are using a gas engine pump you don't dead head the pump. Which also takes some volume away.


you need the reciculation line for when you shut down the boom control (no need for one with elecric pumps, no need for eletonic valves either) , but while your acctually spraying , you need to just be slightly higher than what your putting down , but there is no need to redirrect what your pumping to the point were 75% is still going back into your tank , your pumping way more than you need. Id be willing to bet, that you could run your motor at a high idle (1500 RPM) and readjust your pressures, and still end up with the same output at the nozzles .....so why even have this big expensive pump?

you dont lose that much psi or flow in the ten feet or less from your pump to your boom , you might loss 3 psi, and .5 gal flow, - possibly

think about it... if you have this hudge loss of flow, how the heck can your local city PUMP your water to your house 5 or 6 miles? ...we are talking less than 10 feet - your loss is minimal

some other parts, like back flow preventors, will rob you of your preformance, so that needs to be figured if your using them

monroe knows there stuff, but id be willing to bet , they just grab what ever pump is on there shelf, after all, your paying for it - not them


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

elite1msmith;606227 said:


> think about it... if you have this hudge loss of flow, how the heck can your local city PUMP your water to your house 5 or 6 miles? ...we are talking less than 10 feet - your loss is minimal


The smaller the line, the more friction loss you have. 5" LDH can flow almost 2000 GPM but 4" can only flow approx 1000 GPM. But the hose is only an inch larger, but you lose that much volume in friction.

This is why fire trucks have LDH. Water mains are usually at least 12" on main streets if not larger and only go down to 8" and infrequently 6".

Very simple.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;606513 said:


> The smaller the line, the more friction loss you have. 5" LDH can flow almost 2000 GPM but 4" can only flow approx 1000 GPM. But the hose is only an inch larger, but you lose that much volume in friction.
> 
> This is why fire trucks have LDH. Water mains are usually at least 12" on main streets if not larger and only go down to 8" and infrequently 6".
> 
> Very simple.


im aware of that , but thats over miles of pipe, again , i dont see why using 1.5 inch hose, with a distance of 10 feet or less, that you would have more than a minimal loss... nothing that couldnt be adjusted for with the regulator


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## DAFFMOBILEWASH (Dec 9, 2006)

For pump longevity I run them at 50-75% capacity. If the rate of flow required is 9GPM look for a pump which is rated at 10-13GPM. Also the GPM will VARY with the RPM of the gas engine the higher more GPM. Actually by overclocking a 8GPM pump it can deliver 10-11GPM. 

As for the tips a 0200 or 01.500 might work depending on the #of openings on the boom. A simple unloader must be used in order to shut off the flow and not damage the pump. As for the design I have seen them super basic as well as computer aided. Trial and error might be the best solution.


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## turboguy (Sep 16, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;606513 said:


> The smaller the line, the more friction loss you have. 5" LDH can flow almost 2000 GPM but 4" can only flow approx 1000 GPM. But the hose is only an inch larger, but you lose that much volume in friction.
> 
> Very simple.


Mark, I will agree with you that the smaller the line the more friction loss but your example is not a particularly good one. The biggest reason for the change in GPM is the area of the two circles. Do your math on the area of a 4" circle and a 5" circle.

Your nozzles will be the controlling factor on your spray and you really need to calibrate your sprayers to know what you have and then either adjust the speed you drive or change the nozzles and calibrate again.

I see some ideas that should work OK in this thread and some I am not so sure of but I hope everyone comes back with a report card on their efforts.

I think another thing you should keep in mind is that you are not spraying water. There seems to be a pretty big range in chemical costs. I think Metro is $ .50 - .90 cents a gallon, Don Wilkerson in that area I think goes down to $ .30 cents a gallon, from what I hear but I hear some guys spraying Magic and paying in the 3 bucks a gallon range. My only point is you need to have a pretty good handle on what you are really putting out with your unit or you are wasting more money than you are saving by building your own unit. Throw in on top of that the time you are spending building it and in some cases the extra time you will spend in spraying and if you don't have a handle on what you are putting out it could be expensive for you.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

turboguy;606881 said:


> Mark, I will agree with you that the smaller the line the more friction loss but your example is not a particularly good one. The biggest reason for the change in GPM is the area of the two circles. Do your math on the area of a 4" circle and a 5" circle.


I realize my example was not perfect, but I was trying to get the point across regarding friction loss. The area is definitely larger, which reduces friction loss. This IS what causes reduced pressure and flow.

http://www.wfrfire.com/front/index.htm?/firehose/MISC/ldh_friction.htm&front

Take a look at the chart.

And yes, I realize this has little to do with liquids, just making my point.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

WOW there is a lot of difference in lose on that hose


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