# Smoothing Ice



## u4ia4 (Jan 24, 2008)

Hello Ladies and Gents,
I'm new to this forum and have a question regarding ice management that may bit abit "outside the box." I live just south of Minneapolis, MN and I'm on an ice kickball league. We had our first game last night and I'm pretty disappointed with the ice. It's quite bumpy and hard to play on. The pitched balls bounce all over the place and make kicking quite difficult.

I've offered to plow the field in an effort to keep it a bit more uniform. I'll be using a John Deere 455 Diesel, with a 54" blade. Currently there is a rubber strip mounted to the base of the blade to protect asphalt, but this can be removed and a steel cutting edge is then exposed for use moving gravel, dirt, etc. I'm wonding if any of you guys have any tips about how to smooth this out some. I realize that you are more typically interested in eliminating ice, but I figured I'd toss it out there. 

I'll have to trailer the tractor out to the lake and then drive it about 1/2 mile from the launch to the fields. There is no running water available to flood the area and smooth that way. We're quite limited to what I can do with the plow.

I assume the recommendations are going to involve using the steel cutting edge and chipping up any high spots, and then back draging the whole thing to smooth it all out. If you folks have any other tips, I'd sure like to hear them.

Much thanks,


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

Maybe try hauling water to the place instead of a tractor. Put some water around the highspots to even it out. Not sure the tractor blade will have enogh weight to chip any ice.


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

....................


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

A few years later, The Ice Mower was born Burlington Free Press, January 7. 2003

Icing on the lake
Photo by Raj Chawla, Free Press
Inventor Damian Renzello of East Montpelier demonstrates his latest innovation, the Ice Mower, on a small skating rink Monday at Battery Park in Burlington. The ice mower is a modified lawn mower that is used to smooth the surface of backyard rinks and frozen lakes and ponds, making the ice smoother and safer.


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## u4ia4 (Jan 24, 2008)

The blade itself doesn't have enough weights, but the hydraulics will lift the front of the tractor off of the ground. Tractor with me on it scales a bit over 2,000# and the engine is up front, so I'll bet i can get around 800# of down force without adding weight to to front of it.


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## u4ia4 (Jan 24, 2008)

I've mower eh....I' never thought of that, but I've got a 60" mower deck that runs of the mid PTO...I'll bet If I could get it low enough, that'd work like a champ.....good thinking.....good thinking.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Not my idea.

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...?q=ice+pond+scraper&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en&sa=G


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

You can drill a hole or cut it out with a chainsaw, then you will have lots of water.


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## u4ia4 (Jan 24, 2008)

That was my initial thought, but I bored down 36" and didn;t hit open water. It's pretty solid where the field is. I know its open about 50-75 yards further out as I've ice fished there within the last week, but I have no means of pumping/hauling it that distance. I suppose I could rig up some sort of a gimmick, but I'm trying to get by doing this pretty cheap. Ultimately, it's for a bunch of drunks playing ice kickball in a bar league.


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

5gal buckets would be cheap


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## firelwn82 (Feb 14, 2006)

Get a little transfer pump and a car battery. Usually not to expensive, just a little thing. maybe 20-40bucks. Then drill a hole and stick a garden hose down to the water and flood it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

If you have access to water through the ice.
drill cut a hole in the ice.

Rent a gas powered trash pump and fold your rink over night.

Run the water up and off a grain shovel.
Move the shovel often, you do not want to melt any ice you want to build it up.

The more you flood it the smoother it will get.

Plow the snow up around the rink this will act as a dam for the water.


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

SnoFarmer;497226 said:


> If you have access to water through the ice.
> drill cut a hole in the ice.
> 
> Rent a gas powered trash pump and fold your rink over night.
> ...


Spoken just like a guy who's played a few games of beer league ice pond kickball in his day. :salute:


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

lol :broomball or Pond Hockey.....
http://superior.pucksystems2.com/page/show/12677

One more thing..
Remember to drain your hose..

The water line for your pump and drain it every time you stop....

As long as the water is moving it will not freeze up on you..


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## firelwn82 (Feb 14, 2006)

SnoFarmer;497326 said:


> lol :broomball or Pond Hockey.....
> http://superior.pucksystems2.com/page/show/12677


HOLY CRAP, are you kidding me. Thats an actual sport? Thats awesome.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i got a team from jerzee to cahllenge them....


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## u4ia4 (Jan 24, 2008)

I think I've got it figured out. I've got a mower lined up to make the ice mower. I've got plenty of metal stock around the shop to make a balanced "shaver blade." I've also got a few old bilge pumps from an old boat that fail to function automatically, but can be wired to work continously. 

The plan is to plow the area free of snow and whatever else may be on top of the ice. I'll then take the ******* ice mower and shave off any high points. This will leave me with a pretty smooth surface. If i require it smoother for what I'm doing, I can use the bilge pump to fill 55gal drums. I"m not sure I can round up enough hose to reach over to the field fro mwhere there is water access. I'll try with the hose first though.

Much thanks for all of the great ideas.


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

Post some pictures of everything you try and what the finished field looks like. Some action shots of drunken plates would be funny as well...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;497086 said:


> You can drill a hole or cut it out with a chainsaw, then you will have lots of water.


Beat me to it, but I see he tried it.Maybe drill in a different spot? 36" seems like a lot, they only have 18" on Ice Road Truckers.



SnoFarmer;497226 said:


> If you have access to water through the ice.
> drill cut a hole in the ice.
> 
> Rent a gas powered trash pump and fold your rink over night.
> ...


How do you fold a rink? 

Great idea.

The plow will help out a lot. I have noticed that just shoveling my pond off will remove a lot of the high spots. The steel edge will work just fine, even though it is 'too light'. If a shovel works, so will a plow.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

To fold a rink you need an ACME rink folder.
I think Willey Coyote has a spare one you can get cheep


Hey, I spelled "fold" right.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;497914 said:


> To fold a rink you need an ACME rink folder.
> I think Willey Coyote has a spare one you can get cheep
> 
> Hey, I spelled "fold" right.


Cool, I'll check with ACME, I'm always game to try something new.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

My buddy about 5 years ago, took his new Dodge out on his pond to plow the snow off. Lets just say the Dodge couldn't swim. The front tires broke through, so he went to get the tractor to pull it out. When he came back all he could see was the roof. Dooooh:crying:


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## u4ia4 (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm hesitant to go out on the ice with the trucks, but the tractor is only about 2000# so it's a little safer. most of the lake is around 18" of ice. the channels are only about 2-3." I'll cross them on a sled eve with open water, but there is no way I'll do it with a wheeled vehicle.

The fields are close to shore so we can use floodlights to illuminate the field. We play weekday evenings so need to have the light. It happens to only be about three feet deep all along that area. they dredged the other side of the docks so the larger boats could pull up for beer breaks and dumped the sand/bottom material over on this side. There is pretty much no flow and its shielded from the wind. It ices up pretty quick and gets thick. I'm going to start working on my ice mower this evening. I've also decided to adapt a 5hp Briggs to run a hand auger. I'm not sure how it'll turn out, but the ice is getting thick enough that punching 8 holes to start the day is tiring. I know damn well the wife will never approve me buying a powered auger. so I'll have to ******* cobble this thing too  Good thing I've got practive at being a *******.


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## u4ia4 (Jan 24, 2008)

The ice mower works. The first rendition was only 3.5 hp and stalled regularly. I modified the blade to work on my good mower and it worked well. I was starting with some very rough ice so it didn't work as well as the video of the ice mower they have on the website, but it did work. The field is now quite smooth and ready for play.

Thanks again for al lthe advice.


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## nne1txb (Dec 26, 2017)

u4ia4 said:


> The ice mower works. The first rendition was only 3.5 hp and stalled regularly. I modified the blade to work on my good mower and it worked well. I was starting with some very rough ice so it didn't work as well as the video of the ice mower they have on the website, but it did work. The field is now quite smooth and ready for play.
> 
> Thanks again for al lthe advice.


Where can I purchase a mower blade to smooth ice rink?
Tx


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## nne1txb (Dec 26, 2017)

Where can I purchase a mower blade to smooth an ice rink?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

This thread is 10 Years old, all these guys are dead...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> This thread is 10 Years old, all these guys are dead...


I am???


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Ventrac has a new Zamboni attachment...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I am???


To some.....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

nne1txb said:


> Where can I purchase a mower blade to smooth an ice rink?


People I know with rinks in their yards just flood them with a garden hoser eh to resurface.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> To some.....


Only those at Grandview Media...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> People I know with rinks in their yards just flood them with a garden hoser eh to resurface.


Weird concept...


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## nne1txb (Dec 26, 2017)

Mr.Markus said:


> This thread is 10 Years old, all these guys are dead...


Lol


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

BUFF said:


> People I know with rinks in their yards just flood them with a garden hoser eh to resurface.


Hot water works better :waving:


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

some of you need to think before you post and some need to realize you don't have to post in every thread just to post nonsense (Mark and Todd specifically)...yes, the thread is 10 years old but can still be relevant and a discussion can still be had about it, and no need to start silly rumors about people being dead or people wishing some were, etc.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Hot water works better :waving:


Who's to say there's not a hot water spicot on the outside of the house?
I have one so I can us it in my pressure washir.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> some of you need to think before you post and some need to realize you don't have to post in every thread just to post nonsense (Mark and Todd specifically)...yes, the thread is 10 years old but can still be relevant and a discussion can still be had about it, and no need to start silly rumors about
> 
> people being dead or people wishing some were, etc.


Silly nonsense????.......Its not to far fetched for Ventrac to be developing a Zamboni attachment....It is the Swiss army knife of the Lawn and Snow and quite possibly the ice rink management industry


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> some of you need to think before you post and some need to realize you don't have to post in every thread just to post nonsense (Mark and Todd specifically)...yes, the thread is 10 years old but can still be relevant and a discussion can still be had about it, and no need to start silly rumors about people being dead or people wishing some were, etc.


Understood...but I did want to clarify the alleged rumours of my death.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Do you know why hot water works better for a rink?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

As the only Cdn in the group...Sorry!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Do you know why hot water works better for a rink?


Doo tell...


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

I'm not an idiot, guys and I know you like to ruin threads with your off topic banter...I've given several of you plenty of leeway and plenty of warnings/requests to stop yet you can't/won't so either quit doing it in every thread or we can suspend your account for a bit


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Hot water makes for much stronger ice for a rink because it has less oxygen in it there for less bubbles.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> I'm not an idiot, guys and I know you like to ruin threads with your off topic banter...I've given several of you plenty of leeway and plenty of warnings/requests to stop yet you can't/won't so either quit doing it in every thread or we can suspend your account for a bit


For the record....I have Never called you an Idiot....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Hot water makes for much stronger ice for a rink because it has less oxygen in it there for less bubbles.


I learned my one thing for the week.


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## nne1txb (Dec 26, 2017)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Do you know why hot water works better for a rink?


Luke warm is best


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Hot water makes for much stronger ice for a rink because it has less oxygen in it there for less bubbles.


I don't think that's the only reason, hot water also melts the existing surface slightly, helping to level out any imperfections as well as bonding better to the existing ice bed. Not to mention, hot water supposedly freezes faster than cold water.

I built a decent sized ice rink for my girls this year, and have been learning by the "seat-of-my-pants" so far. Just this past Saturday I warmed up 250+ gallons of water over a 55 gallon drum fueled by a wood fire, and then pumped onto the ice to try to level off some of the weather damage. I think my neighbors (and maybe even my own family) think I'm going off of the deep end with this friggen ice rink...........


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Hot water does not freeze more quickly than cold water.


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## chainedup (Jan 28, 2015)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Hot water does not freeze more quickly than cold water.


The phenomenon that hot water may freeze faster than cold is often called the Mpemba effect.
Under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first. If this occurs, we have seen the Mpemba effect.

I learned that littel tid-bit while sweeping floors.

Another fun fact you can cool water to 31°F or lower without it freezing.


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## chainedup (Jan 28, 2015)

Lol but in this case I'll have to agree, hot water is counter productive when flooding a rink.
Tap water in most areas is around 40°F to 50°F give or take, this is relatively hot compared to the ice.

When you heat water a lot of the nucleation sites are removed,this can result in the water not freezing as readily as cold water would .

As for making clearer ice, it's common for the lakes around here to have crystal clear ice.
( it hasn't hot)

When you flood with hot water this water has to dissipate more heat that cooler weather does the result is the underlying layer of ice is melted.
This can result in a low spot, with cold water you build up and level the ice if you don't apply to much water.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Isn't clear ice a result of low oxeegen levels in the water?


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## chainedup (Jan 28, 2015)

BUFF said:


> Isn't clear ice a result of low oxeegen levels in the water?


I wouldn't think so , low oxygen levels happen after they are frozen over then the decomposition of organic matter will lower the dissolved oxygen in the water.

Clear water, clear ice is my guess.


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## chainedup (Jan 28, 2015)

When I was a rink-rat the old guys would rip us a new one if we left the hose in one area to long.
We had to keep it moving as not to melt any ice.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

chainedup said:


> I wouldn't think so , low oxygen levels happen after they are frozen over then the decomposition of organic matter will lower the dissolved oxygen in the water.
> 
> Clear water, clear ice is my guess.


Several things contribute to clear lake ice.
http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2014/12/walking-on-water-physics-of-clear-ice.html


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## chainedup (Jan 28, 2015)

The Flood –The flood method is simply that, flooding. To flood the rink you’ll need to have the availability of large hoses and above average water pressure. You’ll need to get the entire rink completely covered with water before any of it starts to freeze. 

Spray and Squeegee– Again, simply spray water onto the ice surface and squeegee it out to the spots that need the most attention. Do not try and squeegee areas that have started to freeze. You’ll end up with mounds of frozen slush, which will have to be chipped or scraped off later when they freeze.

-Spray-Spray-Spray
The trick to spray coating ice is “wet ice is done ice”. In other words, start spraying a spot on the rink until it’s glossy and move on. Put the layers of water on as thin as possible to get a “Nice” glass like finish and also to prevent cracking or “lifting”.


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## chainedup (Jan 28, 2015)

If you have problems with layers or adheasion your layers are to thick.
As you can tell I'm a cold water guy the ice is a littel softer but if you squeeze it, it can get harder
You can use hot water if the temperature outside is very low, flooding your rink with a very thin layer of hot water produces the best finish that is a littel harder.

One explanation of the effect is that as the hot water cools, it loses mass to evaporation. With less mass, the liquid has to lose less heat to cool, and so it cools faster. With this explanation, the hot water freezes first, but only because there's less of it to freeze. Calculations showed that if the water cooled solely by evaporation, and maintained a uniform temperature, the warmer water would freeze before the cooler water.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

chainedup said:


> The phenomenon that hot water may freeze faster than cold is often called the Mpemba effect.
> Under some conditions the initially warmer water will freeze first. If this occurs, we have seen the Mpemba effect.
> 
> I learned that littel tid-bit while sweeping floors.
> ...


Not buying the Mpemba effect. I think (as did research in 2016) that it is basically most likely related to inadequate experimental control. The amount of dissolved gases, the amount of evaporation (which affects the remaining mass).

Supercooled water is a well known phenomenon - freezing rain/rime ice

Superheated water is also well known. You can actually injure yourself by superheating water in a microwave.

In both cases it is due to a lack of nucleation sites.

But, we're getting a bit off topic.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

chainedup said:


> If you have problems with layers or adheasion your layers are to thick.
> As you can tell I'm a cold water guy the ice is a littel softer but if you squeeze it, it can get harder
> You can use hot water if the temperature outside is very low, flooding your rink with a very thin layer of hot water produces the best finish that is a littel harder.
> 
> One explanation of the effect is that as the hot water cools, it loses mass to evaporation. With less mass, the liquid has to lose less heat to cool, and so it cools faster. With this explanation, the hot water freezes first, but only because there's less of it to freeze. Calculations showed that if the water cooled solely by evaporation, and maintained a uniform temperature, the warmer water would freeze before the cooler water.


???
You can't cool it and maintain a uniform temperature, so I'd like to see those calculations.

You can extract heat while maintaining a uniform temperature, but only through a phase change. The phase change is most of the energy release. Thus, if the hot water evaporates a bit, there is less of it through the phase change and therefore even though it takes longer for the hot water to get to the freezing temperature it freezes more quickly for the same energy extraction because there is less total mass at that point. This is one explanation of the possible causes of the Mpemba effect.

Warm water most likely produces a better finish because it doesn't freeze as quickly, allowing gravity more time to smooth it out, whereas the leading edge of cold water may begin to freeze on contact, producing a series of ripples.


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## chainedup (Jan 28, 2015)

Hot water makes for smother and harder ice, becuse there is less air entrained.
It's the reason a zamdoni uses heat and a squigee on that thin layer of water it puts down when resurfacing the rink.
This makes the surface harder.

Unfortunately the effect doesn’t always appear - cold water often does actually freeze faster than hot, as you would expect. But this Mpemba effect occurs regularly, and no one has eeen able to definitively answer why.

I'm a cold water guy, I never worked with water in subfreezing temps that was above 50°f
Just what I have seen others do and from poking around the zamboni.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

The Mpemba effect occurs, until you account for things like evaporation, melting of insulating frost between the refrigeration coils and the container of water, etc. Then it disappears.

The temperature profiles through the ice will vary. Indoor rinks are different (ice freezing from refrigeration coils below with warmer air above) than outdoor rinks (ice freezing from the air above with solid surface below, which may or may not be absorbing heat from or releasing heat to the ice) and pond hockey rinks (ice on top of liquid water).

In the case of thin layers, most of the absorption of the heat of fusion will come from the ice below the layer, assuming it is well below freezing.

Last time I was playing hockey there in the mid 1990s, the original Zamboni was parked in the Paramount, CA rink owned by the Zambonis.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Zamboni's are pretty cool buggy's and it's kind of ironic they were developed in So Cal.

It's also ironic they're a big part of hockey too.






And they have a song aboot them too.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Our city fire dept. used to come out and spray water on the skate pond to make it smooth.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

If my calculations are correct, it would take approx 18, 280 pounds of rock salt to turn that into brine. :laugh:


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Interesting facts that I read because of OP is that the rink ice is only 3/4" thick and the thinner the ice, the faster the ice. Go BlackHawks!


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

My buddy does computer controls systems. Ice in a rink is 3" thick and is held at exact temperate 23.3 degrees. I guess that temp makes the hardest ice not sure but the contract was plus or minus 1 degree


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Hope this isn't too "On Topic" for this thread, but I had some time to re-surface this weekend with my hillbilly hot water set-up.

(Don't mind all the gravel on the grass, my plow guy is a drunken hack.....)


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ice and hot water (heater)...there's a joke in there...I just know it.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

jomama45 said:


> Hope this isn't too "On Topic" for this thread, but I had some time to re-surface this weekend with my hillbilly hot water set-up.
> 
> (Don't mind all the gravel on the grass, my plow guy is a drunken hack.....)
> 
> View attachment 176615


Wouldnt it be easier to put a hot water outlet/tap maybe in the garage that you could pull from.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Wouldnt it be easier to put a hot water outlet/tap maybe in the garage that you could pull from.


He's from Wisconsin...they wear cheese wheels on their heads...


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Wouldnt it be easier to put a hot water outlet/tap maybe in the garage that you could pull from.


You mean like this??










That's way too boring and easy.......

More than anything, I just like to "buck the system".

I heat my house with wood, I have plenty of garbage scraps I don't want to deal with inside.
Our W/H is only 40 gallons, it runs the house empty if I want to put more than one layer on.
I can get the water hotter in the barrel.
The barrel is way closer to the ice, I need much less hose and lose less heat.
As I get older, I'm on a mission to become as independent of possible. I can't control LP prices or availability, I can control my wood fuel.
I'm a guy, burning wood is in my DNA.
I'm a second generation mason, I have a PhD in heating water in a drum over a fire. I don't work nearly as much in Winter anymore, so I fulfill my continuing education requirements by burning at home.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> He's from Wisconsin...they wear cheese wheels on their heads...


We have some toddler age books here from my girls that will help you learn your shapes, I'll send them out to you in the next few days. We can work together to get you to differentiate between the shape of a wheel and a wedge........:waving:


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

jomama45 said:


> We have some toddler age books here from my girls that will help you learn your shapes, I'll send them out to you in the next few days. We can pwork together to get you to differentiate between the shape of a wheel and a wedge........:waving:


It's ok Mark, we all make mistakes; for example he's a Packers fan.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jomama45 said:


> We have some toddler age books here from my girls that will help you learn your shapes, I'll send them out to you in the next few days. We can work together to get you to differentiate between the shape of a wheel and a wedge........:waving:


Sure...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

They share the wheel and create wedges, they can't afford hot water...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

A different way to make ice.

http://www.9news.com/video/news/loc...e/raw-watch-water-instantly-freeze/73-2874082


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

BUFF said:


> A different way to make ice.
> 
> http://www.9news.com/video/news/loc...e/raw-watch-water-instantly-freeze/73-2874082


I did that with salt water the other day


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