# Don't Want to Be the LOWBALLER!



## zwhit81 (Jan 21, 2014)

I have ran a part time lawncare business for over 15years. I have never got into the plowing business because I have not had a vehicile that would push snow. Now I am looking at purchasing a F250 and am now cosidering running a part time snow removal business. (I am a teacher so during most snow events we are closed anyway.) 

As to the thread topic: I have seen the lowballers in the lawn care business aroud here come and go. I don't want to be a lowballer so could someone give examples of prices? (I know all markets vary/just looking for a ball park.)

Examples: 
Lot size and amount of snow?
Also what do you charge for spreading salt?


----------



## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

100 an hour

150 per ton $70 minimum


----------



## zwhit81 (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks. Do you know of anywhere I can get an estimate on how much salt a particular size lot will take? I know it depends on how much you put down but what is an average?


----------



## Greenstar lawn (Jan 18, 2009)

Here in Michigan a straight blade will get ya $65-70 an hr where a v blade will fetch ya around $80 an hr. $150 a ton for salt


----------



## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Use search, there are a bunch of threads. I think it was around 15 lbs per thousand? It really depends on conditions though.


----------



## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

You are going to get rates and pricing all over the board. Different numbers for different areas of the country, etc. I encourage you to figure out your cost of doing business, figure out what you want out of it, once knowing those numbers you will not be a low baller because you will know what it takes to get the job done. Arrive at your price and then see where it fits in the marketplace and join SIMA.


----------



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Herm Witte;1731112 said:


> You are going to get rates and pricing all over the board. Different numbers for different areas of the country, etc. I encourage you to figure out your cost of doing business, figure out what you want out of it, once knowing those numbers you will not be a low baller because you will know what it takes to get the job done. Arrive at your price and then see where it fits in the marketplace and join SIMA.


Starting out he will have no idea of what his costs are.

If he think's it's $15 an hour. He wants to make $25 hr. So he should charge $40 an hr and he will not be low balling.

We what if the job goes for $60 an hour where he lives. Your advice just has him leaving money on the table and low balling.

One needs to find out the price range the jobs go for where he lives.


----------



## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

32vld;1731516 said:


> Starting out he will have no idea of what his costs are.
> 
> If he think's it's $15 an hour. He wants to make $25 hr. So he should charge $40 an hr and he will not be low balling.
> 
> ...


I agree with your comment that the op will have no idea what his costs are, as for the rest of your comments I totally disagree. Your scenario starts out with "if he thinks it's $15 an hour." My suggestion was that he know his cost, not "think". Thinking you know your cost is like throwing a dart at the dart board while blindfolded. If the op asks for help to understand the costs of entering the snow and ice management industry I think we can all help him do that.

By the way, money is routinely left on the table, especially by successful businesses. They know their costs, they win the bid, and they grow their business. Do they lowball?


----------



## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

By the way, money is routinely left on the table, especially by successful businesses. They know their costs, they win the bid, and they grow their business. Do they lowball?

Good Question and I will give my answer. Successful business do leave money on the table. It's called competition. They are not lowballers.


----------



## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

zwhit81;1730766 said:


> I have ran a part time lawncare business for over 15years. I have never got into the plowing business because I have not had a vehicile that would push snow. Now I am looking at purchasing a F250 and am now cosidering running a part time snow removal business. (I am a teacher so during most snow events we are closed anyway.)
> 
> As to the thread topic: I have seen the lowballers in the lawn care business aroud here come and go. I don't want to be a lowballer so could someone give examples of prices? (I know all markets vary/just looking for a ball park.)
> 
> ...


Indiana is a big state & pricing varies in the different market areas. What part of Indiana are you in?


----------



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Herm Witte;1731611 said:


> I agree with your comment that the op will have no idea what his costs are, as for the rest of your comments I totally disagree. Your scenario starts out with "if he thinks it's $15 an hour." My suggestion was that he know his cost, not "think". Thinking you know your cost is like throwing a dart at the dart board while blindfolded. If the op asks for help to understand the costs of entering the snow and ice management industry I think we can all help him do that.
> 
> By the way, money is routinely left on the table, especially by successful businesses. They know their costs, they win the bid, and they grow their business. Do they lowball?


When starting up a business one can not google what are my exact business costs.

Starting out and guessing is like throwing a dart. Though keeping your eyes open you will at least hit the board, even on the edge.

Making an intelligent guess is the best that one can do. They are operating out of their garage. They will most likely already have a truck. Their expenses will be low. They should of paid cash for their plow and be debt free.

Because of low expenses they will be able learn and grow their business as long as they stay debt free.

Problem is too many people expect every business to operate by the text book. Well the way you run a 1 truck solo operation, multiple truck, or national all have different operating needs.

Leaving money on the table is losing money. I do not know employees working at the same job accepting less money for doing the same work.

Same for business owners. I know of a Landscaper for 14 years that is still doing lawns for $25 because he is afraid too raise his prices. He sells his work by price not level of service. His financial situation is that his daughter had to cosign the loan so he could buy a new 36" WB.

He's accepting where he is. Accepting is to often confused with being happy.

To charge $40 when your market will pay $60 is losing 1/3 of the money. That is nothing to be happy about.

Costs $20, pay one self $20. Well one needs to charge another $20 because you have to have the income to reinvest in your business. The more that you can afford to reinvest the faster your business will grow.

You say it is ok to work below market. I say there is no reason to claim I am happy working below the market rate allowing your competition to win the race to reinvest in ones business.

That is worse then not knowing your costs when you're starting out as a green horn.


----------



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

thelettuceman;1733734 said:


> By the way, money is routinely left on the table, especially by successful businesses. They know their costs, they win the bid, and they grow their business. Do they lowball?
> 
> Good Question and I will give my answer. Successful business do leave money on the table. It's called competition. They are not lowballers.


Every business has different prices for as many reasons as there are prices.

There is a range where most businesses charge for a job. All the power to any one that can get people to pay above that.

They problem is when they price themselves below that normal range. They short change their financial growth and destroy local pricing.

Short changing and damaging local pricing is never good.


----------



## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Starting out you know fixed costs, so you're half way there.

I'm sure if you are savvy enough you could find a cph calculator for a shovel if you wanted.

So once you know these costs you can figure your desired margin and go from there.


----------



## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

jrs.landscaping;1734142 said:


> Starting out you know fixed costs, so you're half way there.
> 
> I'm sure if you are savvy enough you could find a cph calculator for a shovel if you wanted.
> 
> So once you know these costs you can figure your desired margin and go from there.


Well according to OP, he's never plowed. I would recommend working for someone else first so he can learn the ropes before going out on his own.

The other thing that is going to be a problem is this "part time" stuff.


----------



## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Part time or not, wouldn't you want your venture profitable?


----------



## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

Herm Witte;1734272 said:


> Part time or not, wouldn't you want your venture profitable?


It's going to be very hard to keep customers & be profitable when:

A) You've never done any of this before & don't know what you are doing

B) "Sorry I can't come out & salt right now, I'm busy teaching a class & will get back to you later tonight when I have time"


----------



## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

Meezer;1734279 said:


> It's going to be very hard to keep customers & be profitable when:
> 
> A) You've never done any of this before & don't know what you are doing
> 
> B) "Sorry I can't come out & salt right now, I'm busy teaching a class & will get back to you later tonight when I have time"


No, thats not true. As long as the clients know ahead of time that service may be limited or not availible during certin hours, the op will do just fine. It will likely limit the number of commercial accounts they get, but most residentials will be fine with it. That has worked for me for several years now and I do have some commercials. Secondly, plowing is not rocket science.... If you can drive a truck, use your mirrors to back, and get up ontime (that can be the hardest part), anyone can plow. I started when I got my license and havent looked back. Have I made a mistake or two? Yep. But so have most of us.


----------



## mdsnowremovalpw (Dec 2, 2013)

My best suggestion would be to take an educated guess at 1 or 2 jobs and start there. If you find that you are to low and not making money, then you know that you need to raise your prices the following year. Start small and grow slow, you did say that you wanted to do this part time so I think this will work with your plans.


----------



## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

Plowtoy;1734468 said:


> No, thats not true. As long as the clients know ahead of time that service may be limited or not availible during certin hours, the op will do just fine. It will likely limit the number of commercial accounts they get, but most residentials will be fine with it. That has worked for me for several years now ew custand I do have some commercials. Secondly, plowing is not rocket science.... If you can drive a truck, use your mirrors to back, and get up ontime (that can be the hardest part), anyone can plow. I started when I got my license and havent looked back. Have I made a mistake or two? Yep. But so have most of us.


Oh Actually, it's quite true. Over the years we have picked up quite a bit of work from people who were "Abandoned" by part-timers. payup


----------



## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

Meezer;1734539 said:


> Oh Actually, it's quite true. Over the years we have picked up quite a bit of work from people who were "Abandoned" by part-timers. payup


Maybe in YOUR area that is true. Indiana, with a few exceptions, doesn't get much snow comparatively speeking. I suspose if there is a snow storm and your guy doesn't show up until after their day job, that could make a client panic in your area. But here and maybe where the OP lives, snow is no big deal and everyone know's how to deal with it. Again, it's worked well for me, but my clients are made aware of my availibility in the contract they sign.


----------



## Moose's Mowing (Oct 6, 2012)

I'm a school teacher as well. I do grass and snow. Grass is easy cause it doesn't have to be done RIGHT NOW!!!! It can wait till after school. Snow can suck big time depending on the timing of the storm. Sometimes a storm comes over a weekend, that's perfect. Other times it starts on a weekday afternoon and goes all night, it's not enough to close school, but is enough to have to go plow. Some days this winter have been really rough for me. A few times I worked at school, went home started plowing right away, and kept at it all night. changed clothes, went right back to school, got done teaching, back to plowing and finished up the residentials. It was a freaking marathon and I was in rough shape from not having any sleep for two days. I know there's lots of guys on here that go on marathons every storm, but that really sucks. 24 hours in the truck is my limit, anything after that gets real uncomfortable. I have a mix of seasonal contracts, per push contracts and I sub contract to a guy on some of his commercial lots. It's a great $ combination, but it's rough.

As far as upsetting your customers, I'm up front with them and tell them when they sign up that I have a full time job on top of this. Nobody ever cared. I've always been honest and told them timing might be a concern and I can't guarantee I'll get to them right away. My contract states within 12 hours of the snow stopping, I'll have them cleaned up. I've never gone over this, but the residentials don't care for the most part. There's a few that call in a huffy saying they have to get out RIGHT NOW, but those are very few and far between. Trick is to get good customers. A lot of mine are elderly and they stay home all winter long anyway. I'd suggest finding a reputable full time and try to sub out to him. That way, if you get in a time crunch, it won't kill you. Gives you more flexibility. Parking lots are easier to do than driveways in my opinion so if you're learning to plow. Probably be better to learn in a big square, flat parking lot vs a steep, narrow winding driveway with trees and cliffs on both sides. Either way, you'll be fine, it's not that hard. Just try to find out what the market in your area will bare and go form there on pricing. That's easier said than done.


----------



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Meezer;1734279 said:


> It's going to be very hard to keep customers & be profitable when:
> 
> A) You've never done any of this before & don't know what you are doing
> 
> B) "Sorry I can't come out & salt right now, I'm busy teaching a class & will get back to you later tonight when I have time"


With all the holidays, personal days, sick days teachers can and do take off when needed.

My son is a teacher and every time there is snow his school has closed he has been there for me every time for 6 years now. And he has never had to take off a day to come work for me.


----------



## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

Plowtoy;1734623 said:


> Maybe in YOUR area that is true. Indiana, with a few exceptions, doesn't get much snow comparatively speeking. I suspose if there is a snow storm and your guy doesn't show up until after their day job, that could make a client panic in your area. But here and maybe where the OP lives, snow is no big deal and everyone know's how to deal with it. Again, it's worked well for me, but my clients are made aware of my availibility in the contract they sign.


Actually in my neck of the woods of NW Indiana we do get a lot snow, especially the "Lake Effect" variety. It happens all the time & we are used to it but unfortunately things like this still happen:

http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/brea...ty/-/21046398/24081228/-/5o7ys5z/-/index.html

Our clients like the fact that we offer 24/7 snow removal service. Thumbs Up


----------



## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

32vld;1734673 said:


> With all the holidays, personal days, sick days teachers can and do take off when needed.
> 
> My son is a teacher and every time there is snow his school has closed he has been there for me every time for 6 years now. And he has never had to take off a day to come work for me.


That may be the case by you, but here in NW Indiana, we don't close our schools EVERY time there is some snow.


----------



## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

you are planning salt service...what do you do if a customer calls for salt because of ice and you are in school?...snow events do not always close schools


----------



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

leolkfrm;1735385 said:


> you are planning salt service...what do you do if a customer calls for salt because of ice and you are in school?...snow events do not always close schools


Man, I'm sorry this storm has me backed up. I 'll get there ASAP. :laughing:

And I'm laughing because the customer doesn't know if they are being BS'd.

There are many jobs that need salt done now. You just stay away from them.


----------



## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

Meezer;1734686 said:


> Actually in my neck of the woods of NW Indiana we do get a lot snow, especially the "Lake Effect" variety. It happens all the time & we are used to it but unfortunately things like this still happen:
> 
> http://www.wsbt.com/news/local/brea...ty/-/21046398/24081228/-/5o7ys5z/-/index.html
> 
> Our clients like the fact that we offer 24/7 snow removal service. Thumbs Up


Cool, so our conditions are quite the same, not sure about the op though. Let me ask you this. Do you have trucks ready to go at each account once the trigger is reached? Or do you have so many accounts that not all of them can be serviced at the same time once the trigger is reached? And if that is the case, what is the wait time from first account plowed to being finished with the last account?


----------



## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

32vld;1734134 said:


> When starting up a business one can not google what are my exact business costs.
> 
> Starting out and guessing is like throwing a dart. Though keeping your eyes open you will at least hit the board, even on the edge.
> 
> ...


If I understand what you are saying, it is this >>>>> unless you are getting as much as possible for snow plowing, you are working below market rate and hurting the price structure.

Now, I may be wrong in the way I read this, but if we all banded together and put up an united price structure I believe that would be price fixing.


----------

