# Another slip and fall claim... crappy walmart.. who insures this?



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

We recently were dropped from our old company "peerless" because we had a half dozen claimed slip and falls at one location we serviced for usm in 2010-2011... a walmart, go figure.

We now pay thousands for this new policy in January 2012 and suddenly we get a notice in the mail from "peerless" that they insure a sweeping company that does work for the same usm/walmart account that we did.

The letter states this gentleman, that is an employee of walmart, and WHILE working, slipped and fell in the parking lot and wants pay reimbursement and medical expenses reimbursed.... isnt that what walmarts workers comp coverage is for? Walmart is too cheap to even cover their own employees medical issues that arose from on the job duties? 

Anyway, should our new insurance have to deal with this when they didnt cover us during that time or does the old company still have the liability of it even though we have no active policies with them currently? 

zero slip and falls on record until January 2011... then one at a supermarket "$0 payout" and 8 total for this one walmart.

USM actually forwarded OUR insurance info to store locations we never serviced "ever" and its on our policy loss history report, like a "negative check mark like a speeding ticket", even though no money was ever paid out towards those two claims, its still two bad marks for us for locations we were never under contract for... two other walmarts!


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Why is your insurance company not taking care of this? They should all over them for trying to file any claims. Also I have Peerless to.


----------



## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

i would think the ins you had at the time should handle it...thats what you paid them for!


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I think he's saying they are trying to file a claim and his contract with them is over.


----------



## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

i think the only one with a short term statute of limitations is the state..lol... does walmart self pay their comp? if so they may be looking to get thier money back!...as long as the claim was filed in a timely manor his contract period has no bearing, the ins is stil responable...but that just my thoughts from personel exp


----------



## oneoldsap (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm sure a huge company like Wal-Mart is totaly self insured , and has lawyers in place dedicated to nothing but Buck Passing on ins. claims . Bet on it !


----------



## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Assuming it is not covered by WC, this claim would be covered by your carrier at the time, whether they still insure you or not.


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

dfd9;1442992 said:


> Assuming it is not covered by WC, this claim would be covered by your carrier at the time, whether they still insure you or not.


x2. ................


----------



## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

JD Dave;1443001 said:


> x2. ................


X3, thats how the law works here at least. If the employee was on duty, then the employer is on the hook through its WC.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

This is what I'm trying to figure out. He fell when you had the contract ,then yes your old carrier should be responsible. Or are they trying to put it through the new carrier?


----------



## papa0881 (Feb 8, 2012)

walmart is a self insurer.... my neighbor is one of the district managers and told me once


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

grandview;1442945 said:


> I think he's saying they are trying to file a claim and his contract with them is over.


Correct, what is the statute of limitations on these anyway? A full year+ passes and now we receive a letter?

The whole "employee" that slipped and fell thing bothers me the most because this walmart....as bad as they and USM are in general, wanted her brother in law who owns Joe Blow lawn cutting to do this property because they always had prior to the USM/walmart contract. She purposely had anyone who claimed they slipped or anything of that nature, file a claim..all the managers followed that protocol throughout the season. I've already talked to the attorney about this since its insurance fraud what the manager woman was trying to do.


----------



## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

In my state the statute is 2 years.


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

If you don't know the answer, it's a great question to ask a lawyer.



Ramairfreak98ss;1443179 said:


> Correct, what is the statute of limitations on these anyway? A full year+ passes and now we receive a letter?
> 
> I've already talked to the attorney about this since its insurance fraud what the manager woman was trying to do.


Ohh snap...blown opportunity?


----------



## csi.northcoast (Aug 7, 2010)

in your initail post you mentioned a sweeping company???????? what does have to do with anything...??????????


honestly, the bad part is the usm contract you promise to hold harmless and idemnify

i would make sure you agent is completely aware of that...


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I must be miss reading this. 
You at one time did the Walmart.
Someone fell while you were in charge or after?
Do you do just the snow and he fell during this time?
Are they trying to get your new company to pay for something that happened outside the scope of your work and contract time?


----------



## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

edgeair;1443104 said:


> X3, thats how the law works here at least. If the employee was on duty, then the employer is on the hook through its WC.


WC may very well have paid the guy, but the WC Insurance company is likely trying to get back their lost $'s from the other insurance agent. Even if it's the same company, they still go after the other department.

We had a guy take a piece of metal through his leg while using a mower a couple years ago. it actually wasn't as bad as it sounds, but while I was talking with the WC ins agent they wanted all the make/model/serial number of the machine he was using at the time. The standard questions like 'was he trained' 'were all the guards in place' 'all safety switches in place and working' etc. I told her this was a total freak accident in a yard that we'd be mowing for years. At the end of the conversation she said she's going to file a report against the make of the mower. I never found out what happened after that but I know she was going to try to get the $ back from the next insurance company.


----------



## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

oneoldsap;1442977 said:


> I'm sure a huge company like Wal-Mart is totaly self insured , and has lawyers in place dedicated to nothing but Buck Passing on ins. claims . Bet on it !


Unfortunately, I have to agree with you.


----------



## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Let me understand this, the employee who was working at Walmarts for USM was driving the sweeper when he slipped and fell in the parking lot plowed by you. Boy are you screwed


----------



## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

fireball;1444562 said:


> Let me understand this, the employee who was working at Walmarts for USM was driving the sweeper when he slipped and fell in the parking lot plowed by you. Boy are you screwed


Fireball! Hey man give me a call and i'll buy coffee, be good to catch up with you!

235-snow

:salute:


----------



## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

fireball;1444562 said:


> Let me understand this, the employee who was working at Walmarts for USM was driving the sweeper when he slipped and fell in the parking lot plowed by you. Boy are you screwed


Ya right, guaranteed that this guy had a broom and dustpan. When USM had the contracts I would see this all the time in WM lots.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility and making your own judgments on lot conditions and not get yourself in a slip and fall situation.

...


----------



## ColumbiaLand (Sep 1, 2008)

What a mess


----------



## BillyRgn (Jan 28, 2004)

You need to compare your service times to the date and time the fall happened and give them to the ins company, was this a week after a storm was this the next day or two after and they refused extra salt? And your carrier at the time is responsible for it . Is this the person who fell or the wc company going after you? Best bet would be to talk to lawyers and look into all the reports of slip and falls, if the manager had people filing ******** claims I would try and find out how many other stores this happened at. Talk to other contractors etc. have the lawyer see if there is enough for a lawsuit, generally a company like Walmart will want to quiet you down and just make it go away. Good luck


----------



## northernsweeper (Aug 26, 2004)

I don't envy you this one. whether the claims are fraudulant or not, you get the bad mark, you wind up insuring in a risk pool, and the insurance companies pay off the claimant to avoid litigation costs. To much anymore, slips and falls have become extra income to some.


----------



## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

They tried claim on my Ins
My Ins company took care of it
I turned in days was there and what was done
In the end was funny part 
Walmart was trying pass something on me That happen inside WalMart filled paper work out said happen outside and The person that got hurt told my Ins he was inside


----------



## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

Another reason never to step foot in a Walmart. Shop local and buy American!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

fireball;1444562 said:


> Let me understand this, the employee who was working at Walmarts for USM was driving the sweeper when he slipped and fell in the parking lot plowed by you. Boy are you screwed


No i think its a sweeping company working for USM just like we did work under a snow contract for usm... they sweep it and usm originally filed the claim with their insurance not ours... at least thats what i think happened.

The person who fell was a walmart employee working there on the clock, so maybe a cart pusher? wait. Lot tech attendant !


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

BillyRgn;1447020 said:


> You need to compare your service times to the date and time the fall happened and give them to the ins company, was this a week after a storm was this the next day or two after and they refused extra salt? And your carrier at the time is responsible for it . Is this the person who fell or the wc company going after you? Best bet would be to talk to lawyers and look into all the reports of slip and falls, if the manager had people filing ******** claims I would try and find out how many other stores this happened at. Talk to other contractors etc. have the lawyer see if there is enough for a lawsuit, generally a company like Walmart will want to quiet you down and just make it go away. Good luck


Billy... we had ONE claim where it was within 5hrs during a storm, so we couldnt put salt down sooner, even though my guys were calling us non stop telling us the site needed salt/calcium etc... i had to time them all out . was BS for sure! Walmart/USM refused service within this window and an hour after supposed person fell, we salted the lot lol. Insurance lady from Peerless Ins/Ohio Casualty figured they'd not be held liable then... whether it let them off the hook or not, it still counts against you as a "claim"... and our 8 claims, now 9, almost solely from this SINGLE walmart location, look bad for us on our loss history report when being re-newed for insurance. Actually out of all of them, there is a 10,000 retainer for one account.. i'd assume because its not settled yet and another woman received $4,200... so this isnt 9 cases where our insurance paid out $50k, or $250k or half a million for some lawsuits.


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

siteworkplus;1449282 said:


> Another reason never to step foot in a Walmart. Shop local and buy American!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Amen brother! I should have known before taking this on... we never shop there, hate the damn place, are anti walmart to the core... yet i figured i didnt want to let it alter my business mind and the one we serviced is literally right down the road from my house so we could monitor it easily... that all doesnt matter when you cant service it every due to all their rules. Its all how USM and WM contracts were worded... they called all the shots and we held all the backdoor responsibility on our insurance :/

Ever see the documentary Walmart: the price of high bargains ? or something like that! Everyone should see it, im tired of every $8/hr person or $800,000 rich person still swearing by walmart for "good deals"...


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Antlerart06;1449181 said:


> They tried claim on my Ins
> My Ins company took care of it
> I turned in days was there and what was done
> In the end was funny part
> Walmart was trying pass something on me That happen inside WalMart filled paper work out said happen outside and The person that got hurt told my Ins he was inside


haha thats great! Wait though, the guy had slush on his feet and by bringing it through the threshold inside the walmart your still liable right? :realmad:


----------



## RepoMan1968 (Jan 9, 2012)

Ramairfreak98ss;1442433 said:


> We recently were dropped from our old company "peerless" because we had a half dozen claimed slip and falls at one location we serviced for usm in 2010-2011... a walmart, go figure.
> 
> We now pay thousands for this new policy in January 2012 and suddenly we get a notice in the mail from "peerless" that they insure a sweeping company that does work for the same usm/walmart account that we did.
> 
> ...


you obviously do not retain an annual attorney . in this business , you must cover ur ace . one reason why most contractors feel this is "easy" $$ .

the sharks are eating the guppies . wake up people . if you cant run with the big dogs , stay on the porch .

and no , i dont feel sorry for you . . next time you have interest in large box store lots , lawyer up . then your numbers wont be so low .

USM violated a privacy act , research it


----------



## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

I think SIMA should actually do something good and get a lobbyist to go to Washington and try to get slip and fall claim laws changed around.


....


----------



## Sabsan84 (Jan 22, 2009)

White Gardens;1451099 said:


> I think SIMA should actually do something good and get a lobbyist to go to Washington and try to get slip and fall claim laws changed around.
> 
> ....


yeah right, they are in on it. those big conglomerates are their biggest fans, the little guy is not priority. they are just used as a means to find more sucker little guys for the big conglomerates, if it was soo for you as a contractor why dont they take the risk, since they get the lions share and insure the crap in their policies instead of passing the buck, we are in the wrong side of the business here fellas...they get the clean easy make a few phone calls side and while you do all the work and take all the liability, regardless if you lawyer up, they have alot more money to lawyer up better than you ever could...they designed it that way on purpose, if not they would hire employees and buy their own equipment and do it themselves...ok done with my rant,lol


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

White Gardens;1451099 said:


> I think SIMA should actually do something good and get a lobbyist to go to Washington and try to get slip and fall claim laws changed around.
> 
> ....


Thumbs Up

Great idea, but SIMA is not going to do anything about this for us.

There's another industry organization that has made this their agenda and are moving forward with this, along with working with insurance companies about our concerns with this aspect of our business too.


----------



## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

TCLA;1451139 said:


> Thumbs Up
> 
> Great idea, but SIMA is not going to do anything about this for us.
> 
> There's another industry organization that has made this their agenda and are moving forward with this, along with working with insurance companies about our concerns with this aspect of our business too.


Any idea who that might be?

Would like to lend them my support


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

siteworkplus;1451145 said:


> Any idea who that might be?
> 
> Would like to lend them my support


Yes I know who they are.

Kind of reluctant to mention their name for fear of it getting deleted and getting spanked. SIMA is very much attached to Plowsite, and this organization is their competitor.


----------



## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

TCLA;1451149 said:


> Yes I know who they are.
> 
> Kind of reluctant to mention their name for fear of it getting deleted and getting spanked. SIMA is very much attached to Plowsite, and this organization is their competitor.


feel free to p.m. me if you want to


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

siteworkplus;1451145 said:


> Any idea who that might be?
> 
> Would like to lend them my support


When a slip-fall claim is made against a snow contractor, by law, it is immediately turned over to the snow contractor's insurance carrier. This claim, legitimate or frivolous, is now noted on their insurance history and penalizes the contractor when the policy is renewed. Depending on the policy, the contractor is now forced to pay a higher deductible. Seventy six percent of contractors pay a deductible per incident, with 28% having a deductible between $1,000 and $2,000. Nearly half of contractors report deductibles less than $1,000, leaving nearly a quarter (23%) of the industry with deductibles in excess of $2,000 per incident. These are real costs to snow contractors.

Once documentation is turned over to the insurance company, contractors report that 34.5% of claims filed against them are dismissed. However, this claim still influences a rate hike at policy renewal time. And many times claims - whether they are unfounded or not - will result in an insurer canceling a contractor's coverage. New carriers may insure them, but often with a 50% to 300% rate increase. As a result, deductibles also rise and can be as high as $10,000 per incident.

Likewise, more than half (50.7 percent) of claims not dismissed are settled out of court, nearly three quarters (72%) of those for less than$20,000. These are nuisance payments and are intended to make the case go away. Insurance companies make these decisions based on how much a claim will cost in attorney's fees and if they can settle for less than that amount.

The remaining 15% of slip-fall claims go to trial. These claims impact contractors in a number of ways. First, they pay their deductible, a real cost. Secondly, the insurance company sets aside a reserve amount of money they think they could payout in the event of the lawsuit being found in favor of the plaintiff. That amount is often $250,000. When their insurance policy comes up for renewal, that $250,000, is counted as an actual loss for the policy and the insurance rates are increased accordingly. Lastly, the time spent out of their businesses costs them money.

More than half (52%) of snow contractors pay insurance rates in excess of 3% of total snow revenues. In addition, 62% of contractors had insurance rate increases this season due to slip-fall claims. Additionally, 56.6% report those increases to be between 10% and 30% this year alone.

This is a summary report of the impact of slip and fall lawsuits on the professional snow and ice management industry. This summary is being presented to the House Subcommittee on the Constitution by the A.S.C.A. (Accredited Snow Contractors Association).


----------



## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

TCLA;1451160 said:


> When a slip-fall claim is made against a snow contractor, by law, it is immediately turned over to the snow contractor's insurance carrier. This claim, legitimate or frivolous, is now noted on their insurance history and penalizes the contractor when the policy is renewed. Depending on the policy, the contractor is now forced to pay a higher deductible. Seventy six percent of contractors pay a deductible per incident, with 28% having a deductible between $1,000 and $2,000. Nearly half of contractors report deductibles less than $1,000, leaving nearly a quarter (23%) of the industry with deductibles in excess of $2,000 per incident. These are real costs to snow contractors.
> 
> Once documentation is turned over to the insurance company, contractors report that 34.5% of claims filed against them are dismissed. However, this claim still influences a rate hike at policy renewal time. And many times claims - whether they are unfounded or not - will result in an insurer canceling a contractor's coverage. New carriers may insure them, but often with a 50% to 300% rate increase. As a result, deductibles also rise and can be as high as $10,000 per incident.
> 
> ...


Thems is some scary statistics. I may have to do some checking.


----------



## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

TCLA;1451149 said:


> Yes I know who they are.
> 
> Kind of reluctant to mention their name for fear of it getting deleted and getting spanked. SIMA is very much attached to Plowsite, and this organization is their competitor.


PM me also.

I've been thinking about the whole contractor angle on slip and falls and I think we really do need some representation as an industry when it comes to the laws.

If there isn't any organization out there that will do it, then I just might have to start my own lobbying group to help contractors.
....


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

White Gardens;1451228 said:


> PM me also.
> 
> I've been thinking about the whole contractor angle on slip and falls and I think we really do need some representation as an industry when it comes to the laws.
> 
> ...


The answer is...........



TCLA;1451160 said:


> This summary is being presented to the House Subcommittee on the Constitution by the A.S.C.A. (Accredited Snow Contractors Association).


----------



## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

White Gardens;1451228 said:


> PM me also.
> 
> I've been thinking about the whole contractor angle on slip and falls and I think we really do need some representation as an industry when it comes to the laws.
> 
> ...


http://www.ascaonline.org/


----------



## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Missed the post for some reason. Thanks.

....


----------



## BillyRgn (Jan 28, 2004)

Dont forget also, if you have claims and are forced to a new carrier they will usually make you pay a lot of the premium up front usually half and will not chop the rest up into monthly payments like they would for someone with a clean history. This causing you to come up with a good chunk of change and possibly get a small business in trouble by depleting there reserves, in an industry where a lot of guys are living check to check these days it could be catistrofic because someone wants to make a few bucks for falling


----------



## SIMASTAFF (Feb 11, 2008)

*Sima*

Hello all,
Thanks for the interesting exchange here on Plowsite, I agree that this is a major issue for our industry. I just wanted to make sure that you heard from us as well here at SIMA, since we've been mentioned several times, and I want to make sure those of you who haven't yet experienced SIMA or formed a strong opinion have an opportunity to hear our thoughts.

First, we are a non-profit trade association, owned by our members, and our core focus is education, certification, and outreach. We have a fully functioning board of directors whom our Executive Director is fully accountable to, and that board, composed predominantly of snow contractors, sets direction for SIMA....we are not privately owned, we are a 501-c6 trade organization.

In terms of 'nationals', SIMA over the past few years has provided a number of training events that focus some attention in this area, and more will be coming from us this year, as it is a major issue in our industry right now for sure. Some people want us to attack or fight against these national companies, please know that we are not a union, we are a trade association and bound by fairly strict anti-trust laws---for us to try and limit or hinder any company's access to the market would likely be illegal for us. Instead, we have focused on trying to create some resources and help for people who feel they want or need to work with larger national and regional entities, or if they want to compete against them in their markets. Some of you disagree with this approach and I respect your opinions, but our board leadership feels that education is the best approach available to us all to face these types of challenges.

The majority of our members are small and medium-sized contractors in local and regional markets, and pretty much all of our focus has been on providing training and help to those folks---our Build a Bid programs, annual Symposium, training videos, insurance contacts, webinars, Snow Business magazine, are all examples...another great resource, free to anyone in the industry, is our website www.GoPlow.com.

In terms of lobbying/advocacy efforts, SIMA has engaged in some limited amount of this at regional levels when members reached out to us, and we will continue to do so as the need arises. In terms of national lobbying, our feedback from members and our volunteers indicates that our resources are better focused on training snow contractors and on outreach to the consumers (property managers, owners, etc.). With this in mind, we hired a new Director of Education and Outreach in 2011 who has extensive knowledge and background in the snow and ice industry. Also know that our outreach efforts are gaining steam, it isn't an easy endeavor to advocate nationally to such a diverse audience as property/facility managers but we are making substantial progress, and we feel we can make more positive impact on our industry in reaching out to those groups...we want to manage the conversation from this perspective proactively, rather than spending tremendous time and resources lobbying the government, with no guarantees that those efforts will succeed.

The other group mentioned is the Accredited Snow Contractors Association (ASCA). We do not have an issue with you discussing this group here or anywhere else, and please know that we do not ask Plowsite moderators to remove posts, Plowsite is solely owned by Moose River Media and they and their moderators manage this site. MRM publishes our magazine Snow Business and we work closely with a separate production team there. I have a simple keyword notification set so I know when folks are posting about SIMA, as I see a lot of value in this site for many people in our industry and we want to make sure we are represented fairly.

Thanks again for the opportunity to share my thoughts, I am always available at [email protected].

Sincerely,
Brian K. Birch
Assistant Executive Director, SIMA


----------



## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

I may be wrong but isn't it an overwhelming majority of your members that fall into the small to medium group?

That being said ,a partnership with any organization ,Competitor or not, that fights on our behalf would benefit us all

If you don't want to allocate the resources thats fine, but making us aware of people and organizations that ARE willing to fight for us is kinda in your mission statement, am I wrong?


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

By no means am I trying to put a wedge between these two organizations...nor should there be. I am also *not* ASCA's spokesman.

Brian has done a wonderful job with SIMA. We are also proud members and have been involved with SIMA since it's inception. We have participated and enjoyed the education and certification aspects, and thoroughly enjoyed the wonderful symposiums they put on for all of us.

My contribution (post) was to answer White Gardens (and all of us for that matter) concern for a change in the laws that we have been dealing with for a long time. Not to mention the insurance issues we all face. ASCA's goals are lofty...but very important to everyone in this industry.

Just like anything worthwhile, a favorable result will have a journey and a starting point.


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

TCLA;1451149 said:


> SIMA is very much attached to Plowsite, and this organization is their competitor.


Since I am clearly not anyone's spokesman, I'm sure my use of the word "competitor" was not the correct word to use in this sentence.

I'm just a regular joe prone to mistake...so please pardon me on this.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Not to get to far off topic here,but SIMA is some what like your local chamber of commerce. You get what you put into it.They both do a balancing act. They should be neutral as to what is expected of them but people look at it in different ways and think they are for the other guy.I've belonged to mine for 10 years now and I like it. They ask for member input as to what we want,like training seminars or or businesses put on one so others can get info from it to use for their business.(insurance,finance,marketing) of course they will try and give a little pitch in return for doing this.Same as SIMA, But on the other hand if all you do is send in a check and don't do anything or send in input as to what you would like to see or to promote yourself or do seminars to educate others ,your going to get nothing in return. Hope this make sense.


----------



## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

grandview;1451428 said:


> Not to get to far off topic here,but SIMA is some what like your local chamber of commerce. You get what you put into it.They both do a balancing act. They should be neutral as to what is expected of them but people look at it in different ways and think they are for the other guy.I've belonged to mine for 10 years now and I like it. They ask for member input as to what we want,like training seminars or or businesses put on one so others can get info from it to use for their business.(insurance,finance,marketing) of course they will try and give a little pitch in return for doing this.Same as SIMA, But on the other hand if all you do is send in a check and don't do anything or send in input as to what you would like to see or to promote yourself or do seminars to educate others ,your going to get nothing in return. Hope this make sense.


It does, but I get way more out of my local BNI group if it comes to refferals and marketing.

My only real reason for being Devils Advocate because I see a large organization that could potentially really do some good for the industry, but I don't see that happening.

Between SIMA and the other group listed, they could really do some potentially positive lobbying to better protect their members. SIMA or otherwise doesn't care if their members go by-by because they lost their shirt on a frivolous slip and fall claim.

......


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Some scary numbers a handful of posts back!

I like this on goplow.com 
In addition to placing all liability on the contractor, this agreement states a client cannot instruct a contractor on how to service the property. He or she cannot say where to put the snow, how much salt to use, when to hold off service, and so on. If instructions are given to the snow removal contractor, the client assumes all responsibility for any potential slip and fall claims. Since the he-said she-said game can get quite messy if the issue is brought to court, it’s best to avoid client instructions altogether. You are the snow & ice expert—you should be dictating the plan, not the other way around.

....Thats exactly the problem usm/walmart ran into. Walmart was telling USM when to do what, USM was telling the contractor when to do service and EVEN when to do services that WONT be paid for because Walmart won't pay...

We did get two calls last season where my office called me directly for instruction because USM had called because the walmart/manager called insisting they get salt... my crew is telling me the site needs salt and USM told us on the phone it needs salt, and even though it hasnt been 5hrs yet, it needs to be done and no we cant be paid until its after the 5hr mark... When we called them back, we told them we'd be willing to salt now and get the signoff paperwork signed for an hour later, they said they couldnt be liable for that, and i myself didnt know if the manager would catch it or sign it.... Since USM said no payment, no salt.


----------



## RepoMan1968 (Jan 9, 2012)

White Gardens;1451099 said:


> I think SIMA should actually do something good and get a lobbyist to go to Washington and try to get slip and fall claim laws changed around.
> 
> ....


*I think if one should enter into this business , one should have

1) research
2) evaluate
3) qualify the customer

not look for a bail out after failure .*


----------



## RepoMan1968 (Jan 9, 2012)

sima . . . . . i should have thought of that . but , someone beat me to it . very bright peeps. pay as you go , so you know


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Ramairfreak98ss;1451715 said:


> ... this agreement states a client cannot instruct a contractor on how to service the property. He or she cannot say where to put the snow, how much salt to use, when to hold off service, and so on. If instructions are given to the snow removal contractor, the client assumes all responsibility for any potential slip and fall claims. Since the he-said she-said game can get quite messy if the issue is brought to court, it's best to avoid client instructions altogether.


Big negative. You need to rethink your position.

Industry standards calls for a understanding and determination of where the snow plies and storage areas are to be, potential risk areas and the level of service as determined by the client. Preferably all the site details should be documented on a site map showing these and initialed by the client. It's all about the client ramair not you.

It's your job to understand the clients needs and expectations. It's also your job to educate your client if they don't have an understanding of realities and pitfalls. Preferably all this needs to take place pre-season.

Different clients have different needs. They all don't fit into one box, nor should they. You should be able to give different levels of service based on what the client really needs. I am of course referring to commercial, industrial, automotive, etc. clients. Basically anything other than residential. They all have different needs, specifications and requirements. It's way easy to draw up your recommendations for client approval or denial as part of your contractual agreement.


----------



## PowersTree (Jan 9, 2006)

TCLA, 

I thank you for the wealth of information you share all across this board!!!

Ill go back to reading now.


----------



## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

RepoMan1968;1451795 said:


> *I think if one should enter into this business , one should have
> 
> 1) research
> 2) evaluate
> ...


I understand the responsibilities of a contractor, that's not my point.

My point is that it's just like Doctors and what they have to deal with when it comes to claims and lawsuits.

Ultimately it comes down to the individuals who make these claims. In regards to snow and ice, it is mother nature, and how can the laws put the blame on contractors who have no control over mother nature.

The best contractor still might have a slip and fail claim against them, or in the cases stated previously, even if another carrier picks up the claim, then that insurance company will go after the contractors insurance company in order to get their money back.

It's just a stupid system that needs to be re-evaluated and re-configured in order to help snow contractors stay in business and not loose their shirts.

......


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

White Gardens;1451856 said:


> I understand the responsibilities of a contractor, that's not my point.
> 
> My point is that it's just like Doctors and what they have to deal with when it comes to claims and lawsuits.
> 
> ...


Trip and falls and falls are a bigger issue here then slip and falls for commercial property owners and they have nothing to do with mother nature. It's not just the snow industry that needs changed its the whole insurance system in general. The genuine people that get hurt arent the ones that generally get the money it's the scammers that know the system all to well. And let's be frank 50% of the contractors out there don't do a very job so changing laws to protect the snow contractor is a delicate balance that is easier said then done. There will always be people looking for easy money and until we can get rid of that I don't know how things wil change. I do know that daily site checks with detailed logs do seem to curb the liability somewhat. Usually when we send all of our paper work in the claim goes away. We still do have a mark on our insurance but they don't hurt like an actual payout. The snow business has a lot in the last 20 years and if you want to do high liability sites you need to be thinking liability 7 days a week no matter if there is snow or not. I'm not disagreeing with anything TCLA is saying just giving a different view and I hope his lofty views become reality.


----------



## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Good post JD and I agree.

...


----------



## THC42002 (Nov 30, 2010)

:realmad::realmad:We had a slip and fall in 2010(Feb).at a Wal-mart while it was under USM. the day this idiot said he fell we didn't get any bad weather. He was a construction worker remodeling Wal-Mart. He slipped between a trailer and fence. We got a letter almost a year later stating the claim. I went back and checked the dates to see we had NO percipitation that day or night. . I'd figured I wouldn't have to worry about anything. Then I start getting letters from arbitrators and USM. Total mess. Finally came time for the guy who fell to give his statement(nov.2011) to insurance companies with mine being present. After hearing his BS my insurance company said they would represent Wal-Mart and USM because he had no case. USM agreed. But my insurance wouldn't pay the ABITRATION FEES that were wracked up. Never had a arbitration hearing. They were just outrageous fees for the company doing paperwork. It cost me $10,500. dollars. After I said I wouldnt pay it. They threatened to put liens on my property and come take my equipment.So after my lawyers advice we agreed to pay the $10,500(it was previous $16,000.).They cut me some slack when they found out it was coming out my pocket.)AAA arbitrators and USM. Two big crooks! Because I signed that contract I was held responsible. Still cant believe it. I have a good relationship with my Wal-Mart managers. They spoke on my behalf and stated we had no weather. Even had records were USM called to see if we got snow that day(weather had called for it).All 3 calls mananger said no sort of bad weather conditions. I'll say this. I'm from Western KY. We get 10-15 inches of snow per year. I remember reading what the "OLD SHCOOLERS"were saying about USM when they got Wal-Mart. Were they ever RIGHT! STAY away from them USM. They still call me about doing snow removal, how crazy is that!


----------



## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

White Gardens;1444996 said:


> Ya right, guaranteed that this guy had a broom and dustpan. When USM had the contracts I would see this all the time in WM lots.
> 
> *Whatever happened to personal responsibility and making your own judgments on lot conditions and not get yourself in a slip and fall situation.*
> 
> ...


I feel the same way. What I tell anyone that I do snow removal for that I or my company are not responsible for any slip and falls or personal injury due to snow or ice on walking and parking surfaces. If they don't like it (haven't had one say no) they can find someone else. The way I see it and it's the same for you too I'm sure is, a person has to take responsibility for their OWN actions. If they are walking on a surface with ice or snow then they need to be cautious when walking on it not be careless to slip and fall. To me it's a self inflicted injury. Now if you agreed to hold their hand and walk them across to assure they don't fall they you would be accountable. Who the hell is going to walk each person to safety? LOL People need to stand up and take on the responsibility of personal safety them self. I truly believe that it's the large nationals that have lead this country into a "sue happy" society. Guys that sign up with them are only supporting the nationals rip off scam. They do NOTHING to help make anything better. STOP SUPPORTING THEM AND THEY WILL GO AWAY.

I hate calling good guys lowballers but when you sign on with a national to do work for them, you're leaving money on the table and there for lowballing. Think of the money you would make if you skipped the national and went right to the source, the big wigs of the companies and got them to drop the nationals in favor of high end professional service at a less expensive cost.


----------



## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

> Whatever happened to personal responsibility and making your own judgments on lot conditions and not get yourself in a slip and fall situation.


No way, years back I sued myself. I lost and won.

The jackwagon doing the snow and ice control at this place sucked. I jumped out of my truck to open a gate and went flat on my butt. Pure ice outside the door of the truck. That idiot should have salted that lot before I got there to plow it.

Should have seen the looks on the faces of my agents and lawyer when I told them I wanted to sue myself. 

Seriously. It's winter. It snows. It gets slippery. Be prepared for it. If you aren't and you fall, you should have been more prepared. If you were prepared and fell, that's what happens sometimes. People need to take responsibility for their actions.


----------



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Sabsan84;1451104 said:


> yeah right, they are in on it. those big conglomerates are their biggest fans, the little guy is not priority. they are just used as a means to find more sucker little guys for the big conglomerates, if it was soo for you as a contractor why dont they take the risk, since they get the lions share and insure the crap in their policies instead of passing the buck, we are in the wrong side of the business here fellas...they get the clean easy make a few phone calls side and while you do all the work and take all the liability, regardless if you lawyer up, they have alot more money to lawyer up better than you ever could...they designed it that way on purpose, if not they would hire employees and buy their own equipment and do it themselves...ok done with my rant,lol


And, they will keep on getting away with this because snow contractors keep falling over them selves to sign one way low balling contracts for the national management company's.


----------



## iceman1 (Aug 10, 2011)

I own Oberson's and I stay away from nationals. I do zero snow for national contracts because the liability and the money. No one would care about the slip and falls if you had them in your budget. The problem is the National guys are getting people to do accounts for almost nothing. I heard that Home Depot in Dayton and Cincinnati is paying around $10,000 per store. Lowes is a little more but not much. Even worse is Target. Target is paying $11,000 to 18,000. in my area. What??? think about it?? If you are trapped in this national deal you need to realize the snow thing is a short advanture for you. The bottom line is you can not work at these prices and make real money. Yes you can make a good wage, but if you are looking for a good wage go work for someone and you may see that you are making more than ever.


----------

