# Help on bidding, aerial included



## PLM-1 (Nov 29, 2004)

I am bidding on this "village" for the lawn as well as the snow plowing.

The picture doesn't show the area complete for some reason but it is. This is a new addition with 104 townhomes (52 buildings). Only 78 drives need to be plowed. All but a handful are 2 car wide by about two cars deep. There is also about a 10 feet piece of sidewalk off of each drive.

I have a price in mind but haven't ever prices anything with this quantity.

Give me all your input!


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## G.M.Landscaping (Nov 24, 2005)

I'm curious what others will say. How many people on your crew? "Only 78 drives" 
Looks like a nice account. I can't give you any help since I've never had anything that big.


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## WMHLC (Jul 31, 2005)

what equipment do you have? Skid steer or trucks? Do you trucks have back blades. Figure out how long, and times that by your labor rate.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

1-2 trucks to plow salt
1 Skid steer with snowblower
2-3 guys with 8hp blowers

Places like this are NEVER worth the hassle/money IMO

$700/hr minimum

All depends on lenth and depth of snow.


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## mrplowdude (Apr 16, 2005)

i would say that all you need is a tractor with a pull blade and a truck, one person doing walks.

It won't be a lot of money though because people always bid low to get the job.


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## PLM-1 (Nov 29, 2004)

2 Trucks: F250 7.5' 2500HD 8.5'
Grasshopper with a blade for sidewalks


I was figuring about $12 per drive including the sidewalk. I know it's going to be low. How low is the question...:crying:


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Why go low? There are much better contracts/properties out there.

Let the companys that have to keep several trucks/equipment and a dozen employees busy in the winter handle these jobs.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

TLS
Places like this are NEVER worth the hassle/money IMO
$700/hr minimum
[/QUOTE said:


> Ha Ha,
> For 2 trucks and a skid loader ??
> Remember this guy is in Missouri, not Naples Florida.
> You should be able to get about 12 to 16 per drive, and around 5 bucks per sidewalk. Depends how bad you need the work, and what you have to do it with. 1 skid loader could handle all the drives if you have time (no completion deadline). Other wise a truck could pick up the slack with the skidloader. I would bid at 1600 per push, if I didnt "need the job". What sort of competition do you have there ?
> ...


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

2 guys in trucks ($200/hr each) = $400/hr
1 guy in Skidsteer = $200/hr
3 guys with blowers (say $33/hr each) = $100/hr

Ding...Ding....Ding 

For a total of $700/hr

In and out in about 2-3 hrs. depending on storm.

What part of my figures DON'T you understand?


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

I understand all of them, just not sure how you arrived at these figures.

How is a truck worth $200, but labor is worth $33 an hour ? 
Sounds pretty lopsided to me, your at both ends of pricing extremes. I know you guys in Jersey get more then anywhere else but $33.00 for labor ?
What I stated was he is located in Missouri. I really doubt he can charge 200 an hour for a truck, I dont think 33 an hour for labor will be a problem anywhere though.
Todd


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Trucks cost $40,000
Snowblowers cost $400

I may be a little low on the snowblower guys' rate I guess. I was trying to get it to come out to an even dollar figure.  

Shovelers (Mexican stick plows) routinely get $20-30/hr.

But I'm right on target (if not a bit low) on what a CONTRACT holder charges per truck.

Lets put it this way....if your NOT getting $200/hr per truck your not charging enough.


Bottom line....there is much more money in other types of plowing to just pass up big headaches such as these townhouses. You don't have one person to please, you have 104 (or 78 if your lucky) people whining as to why they're not done first. Townhouse association contracts are for the birds. They NEVER go for enough money to make them worthwhile if there are NO problems and everything goes perfect.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

TLS said:


> Trucks cost $40,000
> Snowblowers cost $400
> 
> I may be a little low on the snowblower guys' rate I guess. I was trying to get it to come out to an even dollar figure.
> ...


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

T-MAN said:


> Okay so you dont know what to charge per hour for labor but are an expert in all other areas ?


I dont have laborers. So I have no PERSONAL experience other than what guys in my area are paying. Oh, I'm far from an expert in any area.



T-MAN said:


> So were is the 200% profit margin here ?


 What does that mean? Where did I ever say 200% profit margin?



T-MAN said:


> So what does a contract holder get for a laborer ? I would think a man of your caliber would see know less then 85 an hour for labor right ?


 What do you feel my caliber is? For straight labor....$85/hr??? Thats a bit high don't you think?



T-MAN said:


> A show of hands here guys, who is honestly making 200 an hour for a pickup ?
> As I stated before guys in your area get way more then anywhere else, checkout what "CONTRACT" holders get in Erie PA.


Throw in salting with a plowing, and I average double that and then some.

This guy is in Joplin MO, not Erie PA. Where did you pull Erie PA from?


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

TLS said:


> Trucks cost $40,000
> Snowblowers cost $400
> But I'm right on target (if not a bit low) on what a CONTRACT holder charges per truck.
> 
> Lets put it this way....if your NOT getting $200/hr per truck your not charging enough


HELLO!!
You claim if you cannot get $200 per truck hour your not charging enough ?
So I dropped Erie pa. for an example !!! These "CONTRACT" holders are lucky to see $50.00 an hour for pickups !!!
I will state this again: 
NEW JERSEY guys get way more then anywhere else !!!
NOBODY BUT YOU GUYS GET 200 AN HOUR FOR A PICKUP ! 
Ask the Ohio gang contract holders if they see anything near 200 an hour. Ask the Illinois gang if they see any thing near 200 an hour. How about Michigan snowbelt boys ???
On some occasions you might be lucky to come close to that number.
Any fool who thinks they can just charge 200 an hour (because a guy in Jersey told him to) , bid at that rate and expect to get work is definitely in for a surprise in "most" areas. If you have any intentions of working you can only charge what the market will accept.
I'm not trying to argue with you here, but
How the frig can you tell a guy in Joplin to charge no less then 200 an HOUR !!!! 
You said 2 trucks, a skid loader and 3 laborers around 2-3 hours:
$700 per hour. So $1400 or $2100 not much help for this guy is it.

Laborer's: $33 an hour is cheap how the hell can you charge "TOP" dollar for a pickup, but give away labor. (If you have any business aptitude you know zero profit at that rate). 
The 200% was fictitious but I would bet not that far off for a pickup billed out at $200 an hour. I guarantee your cost is no where near that number. Lets just use 60 an hour "cost" for a pickup X 200% is 120.00 = 180.00 so still haven't hit 200 an hour ! 
Labor "cost" $30 X 200% = $90.00 an hour. Simple math 
The salt should not be included in your "hourly plowing rate" unless you run only one truck, and never, ever use just a plow truck. Much easier to figure out plowing cost's and keep salt on it's own seperate line.

Todd


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

And that's exactly the problem with all these posts asking "What should I charge?". Then getting upset when people say "It depends on local custom" or not getting any replies at all. I think it would be an idea if those who are regulars could come up with a way to address these questions, but at the same time let them know that what works in one area will not in another. Sometimes it would even depend on circumstances, like bigger, well-established companies with specialized equipment can command more than the guy with one truck - even for the same area to be plowed. 

What does everybody think about starting a separate thread addressing this issue?


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

T-MAN said:


> HELLO!!
> You claim if you cannot get $200 per truck hour your not charging enough ?
> So I dropped Erie pa. for an example !!! These "CONTRACT" holders are lucky to see $50.00 an hour for pickups !!!
> I will state this again:
> ...


There you go dropping State names again. Who here, involved in THIS thread is from NEW JERSEY???


T-MAN said:


> Ask the Ohio gang contract holders if they see anything near 200 an hour. Ask the Illinois gang if they see any thing near 200 an hour. How about Michigan snowbelt boys ???
> On some occasions you might be lucky to come close to that number.
> Any fool who thinks they can just charge 200 an hour (because a guy in Jersey told him to) , bid at that rate and expect to get work is definitely in for a surprise in "most" areas. If you have any intentions of working you can only charge what the market will accept.


Once again....Whats with the NEW JERSEY, now your bringing in OHIO???
Oh, I totally agree. I just assumed that MO was a demographic that was similar to my area (Didn't get all that MUCH snow, hence the ability to charge a similar rate).


T-MAN said:


> I'm not trying to argue with you here,


REALLY??? Hate to see you try.  


T-MAN said:


> You said 2 trucks, a skid loader and 3 laborers around 2-3 hours:
> $700 per hour. So $1400 or $2100 not much help for this guy is it.


Actually, I think it's pretty good help. You said you'd charge $1600 a push. My price comes out very similar. And he is using a somewhat similar amount of equipment.


T-MAN said:


> Laborer's: $33 an hour is cheap how the hell can you charge "TOP" dollar for a pickup, but give away labor. (If you have any business aptitude you know zero profit at that rate).


CONTRACTORS in my area pay the following hourly rate for subs:
Pickup w/plow = $70-$90
Bigger Dump w/Salter = $100-$125
Skidsteer = $100-$150 (depending on bucket/pusher,etc)
Shovelers = $20-$30 (they're tough to get and tougher to keep)

So, by me throwing out there a figure of $33 (mainly to make 3 guys equal $100) to walk behind YOUR snowblower, YES I was off a bit, but not much. You could probably get a few guys to be happy to make $20/hr using YOUR snowblower.


T-MAN said:


> The 200% was fictitious but I would bet not that far off for a pickup billed out at $200 an hour. I guarantee your cost is no where near that number. Lets just use 60 an hour "cost" for a pickup X 200% is 120.00 = 180.00 so still haven't hit 200 an hour !
> Labor "cost" $30 X 200% = $90.00 an hour. Simple math


There is ZERO investment in labor of this type. Trucks cost $40,000. Laborers don't drop trannys, laborers don't rust out. How much do shovelers get paid out in Chicagoland?


T-MAN said:


> The salt should not be included in your "hourly plowing rate" unless you run only one truck, and never, ever use just a plow truck. Much easier to figure out plowing cost's and keep salt on it's own seperate line.


How is it "easier"??? EVERY commercial job gets salt 100% of the time anyway. Why not figure it into what each truck nets?

I don't mean to sound harsh, ( I started out trying to help PLM-1 out and steer him away from such jobs that he may not be ready to bid on. Showing him that these jobs require a LOT of attention and patience. That requires charging properly to make it worth while.) but you were the one coming in ranting and comparing it to Naples FL.

Whats the next town and state going to be?


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## PLM-1 (Nov 29, 2004)

Just to clear a few things up, this area I am bidding on is in Kansas City, KS.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

PLM-1 said:


> Just to clear a few things up, this area I am bidding on is in Kansas City, KS.


Oh....So it's not NJ, FL, OH, or PA???


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

TLS, I guess in "YOUR" area (basically New Jersey) you get what you can from customers. How you arrive at these numbers are obviously just something you pull out of your hat.
The idea of pricing is something that is discussed heavily here and is basically based on "cost" plus your mark up. When you say your laborers don't drop trannys your right, but insurance, taxes etc. are all overhead. Add up the figures plus your markup and you have your "true hourly cost". Markups usually dont very by the task or piece of equipment at hand. 
Just Because Moe's plowing charges 200 an hour does not mean Curly's plowing has the same overhead so they need to charge the same to turn a profit.
In your previous posts you "Boldly" stated you must charge 200.00 an hour for a truck. I hope your business stays next door to Jersey with those prices as you will not have "any" work in most other parts of the country.
I dont pull numbers from hats, as I know there are a few here who dont as well. The hourly rates we actually get and make money, and what we want to get can be had I guess if we move to Philly.
Salt if figured for plowing rates is basically foolish if you have a dedicated salt truck right. Do all trucks salt ?? Well if you answered yes then that would be fine figuring salt in your hourly rates. If you answered no then things get messed up quick trying to add , or deduct salting. 
Sorry you got so confused on all my posts.  

PLM-1 sorry for getting side tracked here, my original post is what I would
still recommend. Like Mick was stating you kind of need to find someone more local to help you with acceptable hourly rates for your region. $200 is very high for a plow truck unless you live in the Jersey area.

Todd


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

How many times do I have to tell you.....*I don't live in Jersey.* :realmad:

But from what I hear, they make even more payup

My issue with all this pricing talk is that trucks and plows basically cost the same (or very close) EVERYWHERE in the country. What I make while out plowing/salting is good money for a job that is tougher than ANY other on a truck. I would just stay home if I had to make your figures/hr with my equipment.


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## mike33087 (Feb 9, 2005)

T-MAN said:


> TLS said:
> 
> 
> > Shovelers (Mexican stick plows) routinely get $20-30/hr.
> ...


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## mike33087 (Feb 9, 2005)

*sorry*

not saying that you dont pay them well but the label isnt needed, cause a white dude can shovel too, just like mexicans can drive ttoo


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

I think you should think before you type.  

A) I didn't label/degrade any Mexican with my sentence.

B) I don't HAVE workers.

C) I can/will word things however I wish. If you feel you must interpret them wrongly, then thats on you.


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## mike33087 (Feb 9, 2005)

*...*

whatever you get my point... sorry if I misunderstood you but I get pretty pissed when race and shiit comes into things.... "mexican Stick plows" doesnt seem right to me.. I wouldnt want to be called that if I were of their nationality... You could have just said "shovelers"........


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

mike33087 said:


> I wouldnt want to be called that if I were of their nationality.


What is P.C. then??? ..... Mexican-Americans?

I can think of a LOT of other slang names for Mexicans that I would/do not use.

A "stick plow" is anyone with a shovel in their hand.

_Is there something about me or my posts that creates this attitude I'm recieving from some? I'm trying to help people NOT make the mistakes I have in the past. I didn't have Plowsite (or a computer for that matter) when I started this business._


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

TLS said:


> _Is there something about me or my posts that creates this attitude I'm recieving from some? I'm trying to help people NOT make the mistakes I have in the past. I didn't have Plowsite (or a computer for that matter) when I started this business._


If you want to help, then be sincere. "Attitudes" and bold statements usually draw the wrong attention and responses.

Hey you asked sorry  
Good luck in Jersey this season.

Todd


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## Silver Bullet (Mar 28, 2005)

I'm sorry, but nobody gets $200.00 per hour for plowing snow in a truck. If that was the case everyone would be doing it. If your a contractor paying your subs $50 per hour and charging $60 per hour and have 20 subs, that equals $200.00 per hour. Your best bet in the Midwest is a hourly rate. That depends on your overhead(truck, skidloader, shop, insurance). Figure out what you need to pay the bills. On a good year we have eight to ten snows(four last year, four so far this year). I get $75 an hour for my V-plow on my own accounts, $55 for subcontract labor, and $65 for my straight blade on my own, and $50 for subcontract labor. Skidloaders depends on if its a tire machine of track machine. I wouldn't run either one for under $85. Sidewalk guys are $35 for a shovel or a snowblower. Just bid it hourly.


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## buffalo mike (Dec 16, 2005)

*Am I stating the obvious?*

Perhaps I am missing something. Local customs may vary widely, but they are usually based on the local economy and local supply and demand. Part of that equation is what the company's cost is. Larger companoes usually have larger costs due to overhead and permanent labor, smaller companies may have lower costs as the owner is usually one of the workers and does all of the paperwork, and labor is usually secured for the job and may not be permanent.

So - as someone said initially, calculate how much time it will take - and see what you need to cover your costs, and then add something for profit.

Someone had mentioned that you have 100 possible complainers - that is true - and what that can lead to is that 10 complainers could cause the loss of the entire job. If you had 100 separate accounts and 10 complain you only lose 10 accounts.

Be sure that the association doesn't have some performance criteria you have to meet and if you don't meet it you get less - perhaps significantly less. Performance criteria might include how long after initial snowfall you start, or how many inches before you start, how many inches can subsequently accumulate, when you have to use salt, how many times you have to come back to open up the drives once the town plows shut them down, etc.

Another last word - Also, are you sure they don't expect you to plow the internal street?

A final last word - Be sure your insurance is up to this job.

Sorry not to be able to gove you a concrete answer - but I don't think there is one - unless you just waht the job and are not worried.

Good luck!!


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Silver Bullet said:


> I'm sorry, but nobody gets $200.00 per hour for plowing snow in a truck. If that was the case everyone would be doing it.


I'm sorry, but your wrong on the $200/hr part, but your correct on the "everyone would be doing it." part. Everyone seems to be these days.



Silver Bullet said:


> If your a contractor paying your subs $50 per hour and charging $60 per hour and have 20 subs, that equals $200.00 per hour.


Granted, your $50 is likely equal to our $70-$90, but if your only getting $10 more over your subs, your in the wrong business.



Silver Bullet said:


> Your best bet in the Midwest is a hourly rate. That depends on your overhead(truck, skidloader, shop, insurance). Figure out what you need to pay the bills. On a good year we have eight to ten snows(four last year, four so far this year). I get $75 an hour for my V-plow on my own accounts, $55 for subcontract labor, and $65 for my straight blade on my own, and $50 for subcontract labor. Skidloaders depends on if its a tire machine of track machine. I wouldn't run either one for under $85. Sidewalk guys are $35 for a shovel or a snowblower. Just bid it hourly.


I agree with everything except what you charge over top of your subs. If I wanted to make $10-$15/hr, I'd work at McDonald's.

Sorry to sound harsh, but your spread between what subs make and what you charge as the contract holder just doesn't seem adequate.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

buffalo mike said:


> Perhaps I am missing something. Local customs may vary widely, but they are usually based on the local economy and local supply and demand. Part of that equation is what the company's cost is. Larger companoes usually have larger costs due to overhead and permanent labor, smaller companies may have lower costs as the owner is usually one of the workers and does all of the paperwork, and labor is usually secured for the job and may not be permanent.
> 
> So - as someone said initially, calculate how much time it will take - and see what you need to cover your costs, and then add something for profit.
> 
> ...


Finally!!! *Someone* from New Jersey 

Lots of good points there Mike.

But what do you mean about plowing the internal street?


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## buffalo mike (Dec 16, 2005)

*Internal Street*

The aerial view that was provided seemed to show a circular street fed by two access streets. Sometimes the internal street (the circular street shown in the picture) is the property of the development and is not maintained by the town. We have a few of those here in western NJ.

My concern was that the bid might include plowing that street too.

I am also concerned about the number of drives in such a short distance. That doesn't leave much room to push the snow elsewhere. If the town plows the street after the driveways are opened up, the town's plowing will probably close all of the driveway openings. Then you have to go back and open them all up again - lots of work!


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

I was under the impression that EVERYTHING in the picture (streets, drives, sidewalks, and entranceways) was in need of snowplowing. Thats the way it is around here. Townships/boroughs/cities hardly ever accept these communities, mainly due to the tight streets, etc. This is why these places have homeowner associations....to pay for plowing, mowing, and all maintenance.


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## buffalo mike (Dec 16, 2005)

That's what I was concerned about. That could be a really big job if you get a really heavy snow - do you truck it out?

By the way, there was some comment about $200/hr. for a plow truck. Someone had mentioned that things are higher in NJ. Well, I think they are. I have not plowed for about 15 years. We needed a replacement for our Tahoe and I saw a 2002 Silverado 2500HD on the dealer's lot. I bought it and it's getting a Western plow on it as I am typing this. At the moment I only expect to do our driveway, and my sister's - both are really long and we get charged about $80 to 120 a shot each. I figured that I could pay for the plow in about 3-4 years at that rate.

If you look at the $80 - 120 for a long driveway - that easily makes $200 an hour if you don't have to go too far between accounts.


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## somm (Oct 18, 2004)

We agree with TLS. 
It's amazing how municipalities' mayors and officials allow such bad urban planning by giving developers leeway in building these "snow-plow disaster" condo townhome villages.

Just for this single account, PLM-1 is going need reserves of at least: $800-$1200 annual maintenance per each plow truck rig, about $400-500 annual maintenance on their Grasshopper and blade, and about $7-10 Grand annual insurance of vehicles and commercial liability combined. At least $3 Grand
in taxes depending on their bracket.

We don't care what slow-poke, inefficient, low-ballers in this thread are charging, T-Man.
We've been charging customers $300 per hour - per each truck's operation, and $35 per quarter hour - per operator of motorized and manual walkway labor, all this for the first 2-3 inches, more payup for additional inches.

Get real with your costs, and stay true to your hourly rates.

Best Regards PLM-1


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Not sure this is really worth my time, but here goes.

TLS, what Todd is trying to say is that because everybody's cost of living is so different, whether it be Philly or Chicago or Erie, it is ignorant of anybody to tell someone else in another part of the country what to charge per hour for plowing, shoveling, skid steers, loaders, salt, etc. Then to top it off, throw in the differences in overhead and tax rates for labor, it becomes even more ignorant for you sitting 600 or 1000 miles away to tell this guy what he should be charging.

I can go 30 miles west of me and they are charging 1/4 to 1/5 of what I am charging.

If you want to help this guy, tell him how long you think it is going to take and he can figure it from there based on his hourly rate. Because that is what matters, not the rate in Philly or NJ or Chicago or Erie or Naples. It only matters what his rate is that he can charge that is competitive with the other contractors in his area.

PS It _is_ possible to make $200\hour with a truck. I doubt that it is possible to bid that, but it is possible to make it when plowing efficiently and using the right equipment for the job.


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## firstclasslawn (Sep 5, 2005)

*I will agree*

I will agree on the $200hr for a truck because I will be well over that this year. Honestly, I think the new backblade can be given the thanks for that one...... hey Mark, how are those blizzard 810's doing for you. I am probably going to be buying truck number 2 this summer and I am thinking VERY seriously about putting one on it>


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

No 810's here. We have 2 8611's and 2 8611LP's. So far so good on all of them. They are the most productive truck mounted plow on the market. Despite all the 'problems' that are out there.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

This has been an interesting (to say the least) thread. I just went back and re-read the original post and had one question. What does this mean - "_The picture doesn't show the area complete for some reason but it is_." Anyway, I'd have to agree with the observations that giving a price is pointless - maybe trying to estimate time and recommend equipment. The other thing that came up was whether the main road would be included. While it seems obvious that it would, it reminded me of a local situation. This year, it was decided that public plows would not be used to plow private roads which had been a past custom. Some people raised he--. It was finally changed to allow using public vehicles to clear private roads if there were more than a certain number of residents on that road.

I think there were a couple politicians living on private roads that met the criteria.


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## PLM-1 (Nov 29, 2004)

First off, thanks everyone for your input. 

When i said that the view shows the area incomplete, you can see foundations. Those are now complete along with another cul-de-sac with only 6 drives. The main road is plowed by the city and not to be plowed privately. 

thanks again


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Here is my scope on this pricing/hr debacle.

There are a LOT of PT plowers on these forums (I'm one of them). And there are also a LOT of guys working as SUBs for the contractor holding the contract.

But I see it a lot around here. Guys go out and make $70-90/hr plowing at the local Wal-Mart and think....hey, I can do this. Then they go out and pick up there own contracts, but still stick with their hourly rate that they were being paid as a sub.

I'm just trying to shine some light on this area, as a LOT of people think that $70-90 is a lot.


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## somm (Oct 18, 2004)

Hmmm, is it just us or was this a for-profit thread on bidding help for another for-profit business owner 

Thanks for the great perspective on the hourly-takes TLS, we used to be part-timers and subs too until we realized that $15-$20 per hour on the 
snowblowers-shovels-brooms-backs, and $65-$85/ per truck hour leaves the 
work truck in real bad shape for the rest of the year, dittos for the other snow equipment.

Ultimately what the great majority of us passionately posting on (and reading)
the threads in this site hope for, is to be able to "get to the chee$e (gravy job bids) FAST" and get out of the 'rat race' of crappy bid scenarios that got us paying the customer and the customer not paying us. We passionately want to perpetuate our snow businesses successfully enough to be able to be in business 5 and 10 years from now. And to do that, all us snow maintenance business owners know we must not only charge a substantial (not cheap) price for our maintenance work today - but set substantial 
pricing for our businesses _to be in business tomorrow and next year as well._

To be in the snow business for years after today, we snow business owners set aside substantal cash reserves for the next season. To set aside these real cash reserves, we charge customers substantially and know how and when to increase these charges over time, and when to cut the "deadwood" customers loose, until they come around, move way south, or someone else owns their house or business or institution from a near-fatal slip and fall accident, so the new owners will contract with us !

Great point Mark ! 
Write up the bid and NEVER EVER let the customers know you make $_____/hour for this and $_____/hour for that.

Some other critical negotiating points PLM-1:
Get some professional bearing and posture about where it is you're going - and NEVER be afraid when they try and negotiate you lower to tell them (say it matter-of-factly, no smile, pausing for effect - because deep-down they're really expecting you to SAY IT, and are really sore amazed  if you don't): "NO BONUS IN IT FOR US to be conducting our operations in that manner" (if they repeat their ridiculous cost needs, you repeat "No Bonus", while shaking your head).

Immediately counter them, but more upbeat and have some fun with it: 
(A)"If my company were to provide you the most prompt, thorough and all-encompassing snow maintenance you could ever receive (and any other relevant issues of interest to them) - what's the most your company is prepared to pay for it today?"

If still not to your liking:
(B) "Is that the best your company can do today?"

If they still hem and haw: 
( C ) "So are you saying that the most prompt, thorough and all-encompassing snow maintenance you could ever receive for your premises (with other pertinent "hot buttons" the customer may have liked earlier in your presentation) cannot be decided upon for $_(your_price)_____, and that we can't do business today? (SHUT UP and let them answer)

If they say don't want to do business today (treat 'em nice in case they become their boss's boss, or win the lottery !):
"Let me leave my card with you, friend, in case anything changes. 
I look forward calling later to keep you posted about biz developments and what's new (smile)."

If they say they still want to do business today:
Repeat ABC above (repeat more times if necessary).

Best Regards


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## somm (Oct 18, 2004)

Mick said:


> ............it reminded me of a local situation. This year, it was decided that public plows would not be used to plow private roads which had been a past custom. Some people raised he--. It was finally changed to allow using public vehicles to clear private roads if there were more than a certain number of residents on that road.
> 
> I think there were a couple politicians living on private roads that met the criteria.


LOL "lots of laughs" w/ Mick !!!!
Hmm, running for public office there got 'em some "perks", ay Mick?  
We had similar situations around here some years back. Too funny !!


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