# Apartment bid help



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

I am bidding on the snow and ice removal on this complex. I will use 2 bobcats and one truck. I have never bid a seasonal, all of my properties are per push. Any input is greatly appreciated.


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

Also, I have been tossing around the idea of switching to liquid. A few of my properties I believe it would benefit immensely. Has any one made the switch?


----------



## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

You start using liquid when you do seasonals.. Saves on material..

I haven't taken on a seasonal yet..

I would think 1 loader and truck would be plenty.. We do a lot of complexes.. V plows are the best piece of equipment for them


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

Flawless, Do you mind if I pm you with a few questions?


----------



## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

Figure out how long it will take you to plow a 1-3" storm. Don't forget where are you going to put the snow based on the plan with the owner. Can you do what is expected?Take your hours multiply that by the hourly rate you need to make. This gives you a starting price. For seasonal from there everyone takes different paths. 
But first what type of service is needed? 
Do you need to plow the whole site every few inches?
just drivelanes here and there? 
Nothing during storms? 
Do you come back to clean where cars were located?
Do you do walks? If so how often?
Do you include salt? If so when do you apply it?
It would be impossible for anyone to quote this with out alot of info. Multifamily I believe is always the hardest to come up with a seasonal price. You will never have access to a clear site like you would in a commercial building. That is going to add time. It's up to you to decide how much.


----------



## ANA Proscapes (Jul 14, 2011)

With out giving us the specs it's hard for us to steer you in the rite direction. 

I would use 2 skids and a loader if you get it. Looks like there's a lot of long pushes and concrete curbing all the way around the place. The real problem I see is all the walkways. IMO the walks are gonna be a pain.


----------



## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

If you know how to price for a per push price, I don't see why you can't price seasonally.

You know how long it takes you to service the site per push, and how much salt it takes per application. I'm assuming bidding a property like this you've been in it for a few years, long enough to have an average snowfall history for your specific area, and how many plowing and salting runs you average per season.

I despise seasonal work in southern OH, never know how the winter will be. So those properties that ask for seasonal, I figure a per push price, and per application price for salt, then multiply out for the total for the season. Then I add in a cushion to cover just in case years. Normally after they see pricing side by side, we go per push due to our iffy winters on the average.

That's how I do it, and I try to make the numbers sway toward going per push because I feel the margins are lower in seasonal, at least for us.

ADDING THIS on edit:

Not sure about your average snow, but most likely I'd have 1 skid full time, 1 skid available for part of the service, and 1 truck on that site, if it were where I'm at in snow. The trick for this one, at least for us, would be not letting snow get built up past the trigger.


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

depends on skidsteer size...if you have something like an s300 it would be better in my opinion, than a loader.

Residentials are tight an parking is always more than anticipated (where did theses 20 extra cars come from?)

Visibility is worse on a loader.

Where is your snow storage, it does look like there could be a lot of carrying snow here, which will waste a lot of time.

IF it were me, a pre wetted salt (like magic) would be key here... I would pre apply, apply, reapply... I wouldnt even push anything under 3 inches... just melt it. you will save/make more that way.


also: they clearly have already had it done... tell them you have some experimental systems/ways of operating that lends themselves perfectly to this kind of property, and you are certain you can come in under budget, but you need to know what their budget is, so you know which combination of systems to apply to make their budget work. You're not here to contend against other contractors, you are here to exceed your customers expectations and come in under budget... so a little help from them is crucial.

From there, work backwards from the budget to assign the combo of equipment systems, until it works like gang busters. Come back to them with a number that is 5% under the number they gave you.


----------



## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

"we really cant pay more than 5k seasonally, salt and walks included." what you mention is a great idea, but they will never be honest with you if you ask them a question like that. they will probably say something way under the actual budged


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

Walk ways are handled by them thank the lord. Some of the problems would be pile placement, I have also tossed around the idea of taking my tractor over with front and rear blade. I am convinced that I will be switching to liquid which would help me on material costs and use the students cars to help melt the parking spots. But if I do a seasonal, do you guys work on a clean up day following the storm? If so does that get factored into the price?


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

John_DeereGreen;1717436 said:


> If you know how to price for a per push price, I don't see why you can't price seasonally.
> 
> You know how long it takes you to service the site per push, and how much salt it takes per application. I'm assuming bidding a property like this you've been in it for a few years, long enough to have an average snowfall history for your specific area, and how many plowing and salting runs you average per season.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I think it would benefit them to a per push as well. I would much rather have it due to the spastic weather we have here. I bought my last mower In Athens off of wake fields. He's a great old guy!


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

If that's the case, then you don't want the job.

IF they are telling you 5k for a place like that, you give can simply tell them "this is what 5k can get you" I can do it for $4750, to save you 250...but this is the limit...anything more will cost more.... it's that simple.

If they are cheap and they lie, is there any wonder why they are looking for a new contractor?

if they tell you 5k and you KNOW your number is over that, is there any point in submitting a number then?

Ive had all sorts of people tell me reasonable budgets they have to work with (including the federal government), it's called doing sales.

you either have a service and a solution to their problems they really want... in which case you are helping them work with in their budget,

or

they are cheap and dishonest and you might not get paid anyway, in which case... no matter what their answer is, it helps you make a decision.

You can simply ask them, "$5000? so that is what you were paying the last guy?"

Simply put, if they dont have the budget... they aren't a customer you want... you will go all hell on wells and get stiffed come payday.

Generally, on a seasonal fixed price... If I stage equipment and/or materials on sight, I'm expecting the first installment immediately, I don't run a savings and loan office. Equipment is allocated and mobilized, we are ready to work... payment please.

No pay...no plow.


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

I wouldn't let me equipment leave the shop for 5k for the season. I know just by riding around theres at least 2-2.5 tons of salt.


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

orinicklawncare;1717899 said:


> Walk ways are handled by them thank the lord. Some of the problems would be pile placement, I have also tossed around the idea of taking my tractor over with front and rear blade. I am convinced that I will be switching to liquid which would help me on material costs and use the students cars to help melt the parking spots. But if I do a seasonal, do you guys work on a clean up day following the storm? If so does that get factored into the price?


Generally, I dont charge extra for clean up... I use it for QC/complaint control....after the storm once Im rested up, Im going to be out looking at my places anyway... so dropping the blade here and there or dragging out a vacant few parking spots is no biggie...

Generally tho, I prefer to bring a rig with a sander on it as well... and if I need to make spot applications, I have a preauthorization clause in my contracts, allowing me to apply up to X as needed... so if I find icy spots, or troublesome corners etc... I spot them and write up the charge for billing later... catching crumbs or pushing corners with the blade is a gimme.


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

Around here we average around 30" a year.


----------



## SnowFakers (Dec 31, 2012)

orinicklawncare;1717928 said:


> Around here we average around 30" a year.


Over how many events?


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

if you're like most places, around 20% of that 30" will be less than 1" (no trigger) events.

so those would be salt or brine applications.

another 25% will be 2" triggers that could still be melted off (higher rate or possibly double triple applications)

so 45% of that annual snow fall will never see a blade dropped.

so you're looking at actually plowing 16.5 inches.

Like to come in 3-4" events.... or possibly the one 8 incher and a few 4 inchers.

so figure out what your application cost is... figure out events...add 12% for spot apps.

Then figure 4 four inch events...and done! there is your price!

put a clause in that your seasonal price is based on 30" and anything more than 40" of snow fall will be charged an additional X per push.

Include that salting is part of the contract, melt offs and freeze thaw call outs for additional salting, outside of a precipitation event, will be charged as extra over and above monthly....

that should get your set.


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

Many thanks!


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

tpendagast;1717938 said:


> if you're like most places, around 20% of that 30" will be less than 1" (no trigger) events.
> 
> so those would be salt or brine applications.
> 
> ...


So figure in roughly 12 salt only trips, do I include the pre apply of salt or brine into those? Or is that an add on? and 6 ish plowing events with salting.


----------



## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

What is the scope of work for the site? They had to give you something to start with. 
Most of what people are suggesting is just ideas on how to do it. If it doesn't match what is expected it is no help.
Figure out what is expected of you. 
When do they want you to plow? after 1" 2" 3" zero tolerance?
How are all the parking spots handled? Drivelanes during a snow event and parking spots a day after?
How do they want the pricing? all inclusive? 1 Price no matter how much you plow, salt, push back? Or can some of this be billed hourly. T&M, or per time?

Look up the weather history for your area. You will be able to get an average breakdown of storm totals to get you to your 30" average. This will help with deciding how many times to service.


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

I have to go and talk with the pm tomorrow, but I figured roughly 800 to mow, and I'm trying to get them to switch to a per push price. With that being said 350 per ton of salt( figured 3-3.5 per visit) and 550 per 2-4" push.


----------



## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

You're prices are bass ackwards IMHO.


----------



## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

orinicklawncare;1713745 said:


> I am bidding on the snow and ice removal on this complex. I will use 2 bobcats and one truck. I have never bid a seasonal, all of my properties are per push. Any input is greatly appreciated.


I think you need more then 2 skids and one truck on that site

Your price sound way to cheap

With out seeing it in person I be at a grand or more for plowing Looking at the photo


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Getting a client you want, to do it 'your way' with no real benefit to them isn't a way to get a new client.

If they want a seasonal price, and everyone else is bidding seasonal, what do you offer to them, that they want? what are you bringing to the table other than "I like to do it this way"?

If it were me, I'd laugh you right off my property and make sure you were invited the next time it came up to bid.

You need to learn to either bid a project as it is presented, or choose not to bid projects that do not meet your company model/specifications.

Maybe this is just one for you to say "thanks but no thanks"

I have done this many times before, occasionally if they really want/need you, they will come back with an "ok we will do it this way" but only when you have declined and walked away from it first.

My hunch is there is another half dozen guys ready willing and able to produce, perform and bid it seasonally. My suggestion, learn how to do the same...or stick to your model and let this one go.


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

For those of you who bid seasonals, how do you break it down on the proposal? do you say x number of salting trips, with x tons of salt? or just x number of salting at x price?


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

jrs.landscaping;1720402 said:


> You're prices are bass ackwards IMHO.


Elaborate?


----------



## ANA Proscapes (Jul 14, 2011)

I know prices are different region to region. But $550 a push for 2 skids and a truck is way too cheap. That won't cover your fuel or labor cost. I can't tell you what to charge but I can say that site would be well over a grand in my area for a push. Your salt price is way out of whack too. Your saying your gonna charge over $1,000 to salt and plow for $550? Makes no sence. And a seasonal price mean you give on flat price for everything included. No need to break down pricing. My suggestion is you pass on this site.


----------



## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

orinicklawncare;1720436 said:


> For those of you who bid seasonals, how do you break it down on the proposal? do you say x number of salting trips, with x tons of salt? or just x number of salting at x price?


yep figure 15 plow visits at the price you have 
20 salt visit with your price

Total it all and add a % There you have a seasonal price


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

No you dont say X number of anything..

For a seasonal it doesnt matter if you plow 25 times or you plow NO times... they pay on fixed price no matter what.

SOME seasonal agreements have a cap... this is treated like a lawyers retainer... you will pay me 20 grand for ice and snow management of your property, starting november 15th and ending april 15th. This contract is based on 30" of annual snow fall, and an average of 12 salting events.
Snow haul off or stacking or moving of snow piles/storage is no included.
Parking lot clean up in spring after melt off is not included.

If there is more than 40" of snow fall, the client will pay in additional to the aforementioned monthly payments X/inch over 40.

If there is more than 12 salting events, the company is available on call and you will be notified before your in contract salting service has expired.

Additional salting is X/event.


HOWEVER mostly (80%) of seasonals are straight up X cost from A Date to B Date and that is that.


----------



## orinicklawncare (Nov 10, 2011)

tpendagast;1720445 said:


> No you dont say X number of anything..
> 
> For a seasonal it doesnt matter if you plow 25 times or you plow NO times... they pay on fixed price no matter what.
> 
> ...


thanks That clears up a lot of things for me.


----------



## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

orinicklawncare;1720438 said:


> Elaborate?


1300 for salt and 550 per push doesn't seem backwards?

You posted this on lawnsite, my price would be in the ballpark of 90k for twelve months depending on specifics............


----------



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

90k for 12 months?

there is totally something wrong here.

the idea of a max of 30" of snowfall on average and the fact there is no hand shoveling (it's done in house) matched to the fact he thinks it will be only a few pieces of equipment.... plus I do not see THAT much grass....

I didnt see the lawn site part of it, but is there to be irrigation?

It's obvious the OP has never bid fixed price seasonal before.

a 12 month (green AND snow) contract is the most sought after contract in all of the industry... people will knife your tires and kindnap your fist born to get this kind of contract.

most of the successful 'big guys' int he game have several of these they have had tucked under their wing for several years.

the idea with these is to get it for whatever price you can get it for.

Don't focus on "how much money can I make off this one client"

if you get a drought year, and there isnt much grass to cut, this client still pays, of there is no snow and your trucks are still sitting there, this client still pays.

In our business there are fixed costs... drought and no snow put the per cut/per inch guys out of business every time it happens... because insurance, truck payments, rent, light, etc all keeping coming in no matter what the weather does.

It's contracts like THIS, that keep the big boys alive.
for that reason, people will bid them aggressively.
They will usually go for 80% of that they are worth.

But I am NOT looking at a $90,000 property here...

the BEST thing you can do here is give all the measurements, or give the location of the site so others can google it.

Pick three guys, not in your area that do year round work like this, PM them... Pay them like $100 and see what each of them comes up with for estimation after reading the specs and using google earth to measure it.

Should give you decent ball park of where you might need to be.

Do you have Brickman, TruGreen, or ValleyCrest competing for work in your area?


----------



## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

My bid (rough numbers)

Mowing (including leaf and litter) - 34k

Bed/Tree maintenance (including mulch) - 10k

Fert/Pre-em/non selective - 12k

Snow - 25k

Ice control - 10500


Grand total = $91,500 The only prices that I would consider lowering would be mowing and beds. Everything else is fixed due to product costs. My LOWEST bid would be 80k. Guys can bid it cheaper if they want Thumbs Up I go to work to make payup


----------



## hyfire39 (Oct 16, 2013)

ryde307;1716553 said:


> Figure out how long it will take you to plow a 1-3" storm. Don't forget where are you going to put the snow based on the plan with the owner. Can you do what is expected?Take your hours multiply that by the hourly rate you need to make. This gives you a starting price. For seasonal from there everyone takes different paths.
> But first what type of service is needed?
> Do you need to plow the whole site every few inches?
> just drivelanes here and there?
> ...


i would agree alot of info is needed in large projects like this. About being impossible to never having full access. Around here (Iowa) the Apts/condos that we do, the PM will put out stuff to the tenets that this or that area of the lot is closed for say 10AM till Noon such and such day so it is clear to plow. then change to another area do the same thing. This is later after we plow the main drives and open areas. So basically this is our clean up.


----------

