# Let the excuses begin!!!!!!!!



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I love to hear all the excuses as to why they can't work. Last year I thought I heard some beauties and this year is off to a good start.......So we had our annual plow meeting where everyone comes to our shop just to let everyone know whats expected etc. So today I call all my sidewalk guys to set up a time to show them the route and one kid (hardly a kid, in his 20's) calls back to say his mom won't let him use her car to carry a single stage snow blower. I said ok what about just a shovel, he said no, nothing with snow on it....OMG just man up and tell me you don't want to work. 1 out of 50 people anymore are just plain soft


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

I feel your pain ..... I worked in a carryout restaurant. I ask the owner's son (16 years old) to get me several buckets of ice to refill the ice bin for the soda fountain. He told me no because he does not want to over extend himself. Maybe these guys are related!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

didn't the fact the guy didn't even have his own ride put up a red flag? Why are they using their own cars to go between sites?


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

We've already had 2 snow events! Same old crap... this year I'm just continually hiring/firing as im not taking any lame excuses!


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

I as well off to a great start with my shovel crew. 1 kid(again mid 20's) started his first day just a few days ago, he knew what the jobs was yet he said he wanted to do it. Anyway 45min into the morn we the crew is on the last walks in a complex when he just out of the blue turns to me & says "I'm done" I turned to him & said what? He just looked at me & dropped the shovel & started walking home(about 10 blocks) WTF? why did he take the job? lol as well as this morning I fired a guy because I showed up to pick up an employee, he fell back asleep after I called him & when he answered the door and told me he couldnt work till later because he had to brew a pot of coffee first, I told him we will stop at the store, lets go cause we late now, he said that his coffee was more important then his job. WTF???? So I told him fine & see you next week to collect your last check!


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## NickT (Feb 1, 2011)

Its amazing the work ethic of some people,I actually am surprised some of these people have gotten by for so long. We will be supporting them with govt checks.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

nickt;1357460 said:


> its amazing the work ethic of some people,i actually am surprised some of these people have gotten by for so long. We will be supporting them with govt checks.


a big huge ditto!


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

grandview;1357403 said:


> didn't the fact the guy didn't even have his own ride put up a red flag? Why are they using their own cars to go between sites?


Well seeings how our ad said specifically MUST HAVE OWN TRANSPORTATION....AND when they signed in there was a spot to put what transportation you had. As far as using their own vehicles, they're all subs. The only thing we do is provide equipment and they lease it for a very small amount.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Brian Young;1357471 said:


> Well seeings how our ad said specifically MUST HAVE OWN TRANSPORTATION....AND when they signed in there was a spot to put what transportation you had. As far as using their own vehicles, they're all subs. The only thing we do is provide equipment and *they lease it* for a very small amount.


You lease equipment to a guy without a car?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

2COR517;1357484 said:


> You lease equipment to a guy without a car?


Ummmm no, where do you come up with that?


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Ummmm, did you read your own post? I even *bolded* the key statement for your convenience.


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## GSSFC (Jun 10, 2007)

So having subs is how you get around firing so easily and not having to pay unemployment. Good idea!

Tim


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

2COR517;1357499 said:


> Ummmm, did you read your own post? I even *bolded* the key statement for your convenience.


You need to re-read the post I guess. The whole point to the post was he DIDN'T have a car I guess (and wrote down he did). No one said any thing about leasing equipment to a guy who didn't have a car.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

GSSFC;1357504 said:


> So having subs is how you get around firing so easily and not having to pay unemployment. Good idea!
> 
> Tim


Someone who works so few days is not eligible for unemployment anyway.


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## BPS#1 (Oct 16, 2011)

When did $9.50 become "A GOOD WAGE"??????





Maybe in the 70s. 
Or if the guy is only 16. But I don't hire under 18.



I've got one commercial that the guys get $20 an hr for sidewalks/stairs.
The rest of the jobs they get $11 and sit in the truck at least half the time. 
I take a guy with me to shovel sidewalks while I plow. 
Some places have their own maint guys handle the sidewalks.

Even at $11 an hr after taxes really isn't that much take home.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

BPS#1;1357583 said:


> When did $9.50 become "A GOOD WAGE"??????
> 
> Maybe in the 70s.
> Or if the guy is only 16. But I don't hire under 18.
> ...


.
Agreed. The lowest paid of my 4 employees makes $17 an hour. I can not imagine making $9.50 an hour on limited snow removal hours


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Hey at least Craigslist ad's are free! We have 4 more guys but you know how that can go. After next winter I'm hoping to be either much bigger or just doing residential's and a handful of small commercials with little to no sidewalks. These people are just embarrassing.


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## plowfever (Nov 2, 2010)

Around here $9.50 is decent money for starting out. This kid had never worked for me before so that is what he was making and also this was cash that I didn't take taxes out of so if you figure that it is like him making probably $12-13hr. I can't imagine paying someone $17hr for doing sidewalks around here in my small town. I would be out of business if I paid employees that much as I can only get $50hr for sidewalks. Maybe I didn't choose the proper term when I said decent money. I only can afford to pay myself $20hr and that is stretching it. The rates in my area for snow are $65-75hr for a trucks with plow, $100-125 for a backhoe with push box. Most people only pay $30-40hr for sidewalks if they pay for it at all some have there maintenance guys do it. This economy and lowballers have driven down the prices here so bad that it makes it hard on us guys that do good work but these companies are looking to save every place they can. I lose mowing jobs around here all the time for $5 a week less than I charge. Loyalty is something else these companies have less of anymore also. Used to be 5-10 years ago my customers would say hey listen we need to save some money what can we do? Not anymore its hey this guy beat you by $x and we are going to try him even though we really like your work.


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## R.G.PEEL (Oct 27, 2010)

plowfever;1357690 said:


> Around here $9.50 is decent money for starting out. This kid had never worked for me before so that is what he was making and also this was cash that I didn't take taxes out of so if you figure that it is like him making probably $12-13hr. I can't imagine paying someone $17hr for doing sidewalks around here in my small town. I would be out of business if I paid employees that much as I can only get $50hr for sidewalks. Maybe I didn't choose the proper term when I said decent money. I only can afford to pay myself $20hr and that is stretching it. The rates in my area for snow are $65-75hr for a trucks with plow, $100-125 for a backhoe with push box. Most people only pay $30-40hr for sidewalks if they pay for it at all some have there maintenance guys do it. This economy and lowballers have driven down the prices here so bad that it makes it hard on us guys that do good work but these companies are looking to save every place they can. I lose mowing jobs around here all the time for $5 a week less than I charge. Loyalty is something else these companies have less of anymore also. Used to be 5-10 years ago my customers would say hey listen we need to save some money what can we do? Not anymore its hey this guy beat you by $x and we are going to try him even though we really like your work.


If you're getting 50 for sidewalks and can't pay more than 9.50 there is a greed factor involved. Look at the ratio there. You deserve 4x what the guy actually doing the work does? If you feel you need more money, take on more work with more eployees making a good wage. A smaller piece of a lot of pies will fill your pockets and eliminate some headaches. I know what I would get here in Toronto for 9.50 an hour and its not good labour. Its even illegal here to pay less than 10.50. Our rates for trucks, pushers etc... Are similar and we make good money while paying the giys well. Prob cuz theuy work hard for good money.


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## plowfever (Nov 2, 2010)

Let's look at it this way 50hr minus 30% taxes that leaves you $35 then take $17 for labor and you have $18 then take fuel, equipment cost and all the other little factors in and you have hardly anything left. I'm not greedy but I am also not going to do something if I can't make my 30% profit margin. I spent many years spinning my wheels making less and it isnt worth it to me. Everyone is different but this is how I like to run my business.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Back in 1999 you could pull a 30% margin and still compete well in some industries, but in this economy anyone succeeding at 30% is a miracle in almost any industry.


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## blazer2plower (Nov 19, 2011)

I know what you mean about kids and NOT WORKING. hired this kid to paint mower's and decks be for I sell them I held is hand for the first few. I asked him if he was good I was told yep. kid comes in a noon and goes to lunch a 1 WTF his mommy calls me and talks to me and says he is sick ok two days later the same thing now im getting miffed. Has I am driving to get parts I see him out playing
in his car I stoped and asked if he was coming to work his mommy calls me and said he is sick. 
I said sick I need a doctor's note. And if he was sick. Or sick of work. She then started to go on me calling me every name you can thank of so I hang up the phone she calls me back and I tell her her son is FIRED at 10.00 an hour thats good pay for an high school kid. I have an old man doing it now and I cant be happer with him. And yes I do feal better now thanks


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## plowfever (Nov 2, 2010)

30% profit margins are still manageable even in today's tough economic climate. I have been doing the lawn and landscape thing for 13 years now while doing snow in the winter months and these past two seasons I have made more profit than the past 11 years prior. It just takes being very efficient, smart about purchases and keeping low overhead. So many guys have to have all the new shiny paint and the biggest and baddest of everything but that shiny paint rusts and there is always newer bigger and badder stuff coming to the market. I have taken the approach that I want to make 30% profit and won't settle for making less. I have cut cost that allows me to do this while still providing top notch service and quality of work. Maybe I don't have the newest gadget or the biggest loader but I don't care when I look at my financial statements at the end of the month and see what kind of profit margins I am turning.


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Called the shoveling guys last week and setup a time to go through the route. Same as you guys everyone was ok with the time. But that morning everyone showed up but two of the guys. Hour AFTER we were done one called and told me his excuse......a little late i would say. I called the other one and he said he couldnt make it saturday morning becuase those were his days to sleep in......pretty sure when you called for the job i said it was mainly third shift and you would be working for 2-7am roughly.


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## BPS#1 (Oct 16, 2011)

plowfever;1357725 said:


> Let's look at it this way 50hr minus 30% taxes that leaves you $35 then take $17 for labor and you have $18 then take fuel, equipment cost and all the other little factors in and you have hardly anything left. I'm not greedy but I am also not going to do something if I can't make my 30% profit margin. I spent many years spinning my wheels making less and it isnt worth it to me. Everyone is different but this is how I like to run my business.


30% taxes??? good lord.

And taxes do not come off the top, they come off the profit after expenses are paid.

30% profit off the back of a poor guy busting his hump for a measly $9.50?
I'd say yes that is greed, plain and simple.

There are a few things that have my BS meter starting to tickle. 
One is that you think taxes come off the top of the income. It doesn't work that way.


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## R.G.PEEL (Oct 27, 2010)

That's a barbaric tax system if you pay your taxes based on total revenue. We (canadians) pay based on profits. Any expense incurred earning that revenue is deducted from taxable income. You only pay tax on what's left. Pretty sure its the same in the states. Your taxes should not be 15/hr. Your model should be as such. 50$ billable, 15 paid, fuel and equipment insurance etc.. costs can't possibly exceed 15/hr for sidewalks. That leaves 20/ hour which when taxed at 30 percent leaves about 14/hr. A perfectly respectable 28 percent profit margin. Your business not mine. Thats the model that backs my thinking. Do with it as you will.

I will continue to pay what I would expect to be paid myself for the services employees provide me. If that becomes too tight for my liking I'll increase my prices. If increased prices put me out of contention, I'll do different work that can sustain proper business. As business owners we have a responsibility to turn over money. Everyone paying a nickel for a dollar's work has a hand in the failing economies of the world. In order for the world to go round everyone has to spend and those who don't have can't spend which comes around and bites the business owner in the ass when nobody can afford his service.


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## plowfever (Nov 2, 2010)

That poor guy isn't busting his butt all that hard. Like I said he is sitting in a Gator with heat and a blade cleaning sidewalks and just shovels or blows where the Gator doesn't fit which is not very many areas. This was also a start out wage for someone that had never worked for me before and was cash not taxable income till they make 600 then I have to start taxing them and then I pay them more. As far as the 30% that is correct that is off profit and after this I think I may need to set up a time to talk to the CPA because I am paying way more than I should. I am no genius or slave driver but just telling you what is normal in my area.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

Good news! At $9.50/hr he was never in any great danger of reaching the $600 cash threshold.


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

I would like to think that I hold the record for most excuses heard over the years but maybe I dont. I have often thought of writing a book Im sure I could fill hundreds of pages. Heres a few of the more memorable ones.#1 I cant haul snow tonight because I had a vasectomy the other day. #2 My girlfriend is here and she is really mad I have to go and I say to him tell her you will be free in 2 hours when we are finished a long pause on the cell phone and then he says she has laid down in front of the skidloader Im operating and said if I stay 1 minute longer just run her over to which I replied bury her in the pile we can find her in the spring. #3 We were shorthanded one night and one of my regular guys says to me I know of a homeless guy who could help I say go get him he returns and the guy is on a bicycle its 2 am and its cold out anyway he helps for a few hours and says Im hungry I run to McD's bring him back a burger he seems happy, less than an hour later he flags me down and says I really should get back to my dumpster. #4 A friend of mine is in one of my older dumptrucks hauling snow that I am loading 1am he says Im cold I say toughen up buttercup 2am Im really cold, so I run down to walmart and buy little burner and a small propane tank I think to cook on when camping I jump in the truck and stick it in the beverage holder light it and tell him he will be warm now a few rounds he seems happy then out the window flies a flaming glove followed by his body on fire, as he is rolling around in the snowbank I jump out and say to him you cant complain about being cold when your on fire now can you, he made one more round and suddenly a cab pulls up to the big snow pile and he jumped in and he was gone. I have hundereds if not thousands of these stories.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

This thread has been one of the greatest reads in ages.



......


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## NickT (Feb 1, 2011)

Holy sh** that's funny, I can believe the one about the homeless guy, but the propane burner???? Hell even as I'm typing. It has to be true... You can make that sh** up.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

You guys need to relieve that in some places $9.50/hr is decent money. Around here our median income is around 26k a year.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

plowfever;1357797 said:


> 30% profit margins are still manageable even in today's tough economic climate. I have been doing the lawn and landscape thing for 13 years now while doing snow in the winter months and these past two seasons I have made more profit than the past 11 years prior. It just takes being very efficient, smart about purchases and keeping low overhead. So many guys have to have all the new shiny paint and the biggest and baddest of everything but that shiny paint rusts and there is always newer bigger and badder stuff coming to the market. I have taken the approach that I want to make 30% profit and won't settle for making less. I have cut cost that allows me to do this while still providing top notch service and quality of work. Maybe I don't have the newest gadget or the biggest loader but I don't care when I look at my financial statements at the end of the month and see what kind of profit margins I am turning.


I'm glad it's working for you, but in this economy there's usually someone doing quality work for less by using the same strategies and accepting less profit. Anyway, I agree 100% with the way you operate and I'm glad you can get 30%.



SNOWLORD;1358055 said:


> 2am Im really cold, so I run down to walmart and buy little burner and a small propane tank I think to cook on when camping I jump in the truck and stick it in the beverage holder light it and tell him he will be warm now a few rounds he seems happy then out the window flies a flaming glove followed by his body on fire, as he is rolling around in the snowbank I jump out and say to him you cant complain about being cold when your on fire now can you, he made one more round and suddenly a cab pulls up to the big snow pile and he jumped in and he was gone. I have hundereds if not thousands of these stories.


Give a man fire, he's warm for one night...set a man on fire, he's warm for the rest of his life!

What in the world possessed you to put fire in _your_ truck with some jerk who can't handle a non-burning truck?


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## Rich Graz (Jul 9, 2011)

subscribed


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Brian Young;1357380 said:


> 49 out of 50 people anymore are just lazy pu**y's


fixed it for ya.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

snocrete;1358151 said:


> fixed it for ya.


Thanks sno....


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

What are some other good ones we've had, last year a guy couldn't plow because it was his Wife's birthday.....in 2 days  I was left high and dry last year, of course in one of the worst storms of the year and said he drank a bottle of cold medicine and past out for 3 days...ok. One guy we called out all the time said his Wife wouldn't let him use their van because she needed to go shopping. I'm sure there will be more to come.


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## jeffslawnservic (Apr 23, 2009)

I had two kids around my age (19) work for me last year and both called out at different times one sent me a text saying I cant work today because I need to go shopping with my mom. The other text me and told me how he had a house party and his dogs got scared and ripped his house apart and he was scared that if he left them alone again they would do the same thing. Also had a friend who wanted to work as long as we split the gross profit 50/50.


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## APLC (Nov 25, 2008)

clark lawn;1358126 said:


> You guys need to relieve that in some places $9.50/hr is decent money. Around here our median income is around 26k a year.


Yeah here in Michigan our seasoned shoveler's get around $12.00Hr first year starting out around 10.00 and go up for being reliable and they all get a minimum 4.5 Hrs no matter what.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Don;t have anyone working for me as far as snow removal so I don't have to worry about excuses. With working in the rental business, I hear every excuse under the sun. Actually had one tenant that mother passed away twice.


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## BPS#1 (Oct 16, 2011)

All these hired guys haven't figured out yet that the key to a good BS story is to follow the rules.


1. Its got to be believable.

2. You can never use the same BS story twice on the same guy.




Follow those two rules religiously and it'll keep you out of trouble.

lmao


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

This is the reason I purchase equipment over manpower. Equipment does not come up with lame excuses. I once fired a kid, 19yrs old for smoking in my vehicle. Its legal here to smoke in the work place, truck is considered a work place. As a non smoker, I strictly enforce this law. This kid knew this rule as I plainly told all the employees this. So he lite up not a cig but a joint. I said excuse me, please put that out. He replied, "No not til I'm done". I looked at him and said, "What is more important, that joint or job?". Needless to say he chose the joint.....


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

I don't understand why some of you guys are so shocked about the kind of help you get. This is landscaping and snowplowing. And in this first case, SHOVELING. PART TIME. WITH YOUR OWN VEHICLE? Who do you think you're going to get to take their own car to go shovel sidewalks part time in the middle of the night?? The cream of the crop. Not saying these guys shouldn't take pride in their work but come on, these guys would be better off working at a pizza joint.


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm thinking CubanB hit the nail on the head.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

Yes I agree on what Cuban posted. Plus the younger generation for the most part are a lazier group with far less common sense.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

cubanb343;1358892 said:


> I don't understand why some of you guys are so shocked about the kind of help you get. This is landscaping and snowplowing. And in this first case, SHOVELING. PART TIME. WITH YOUR OWN VEHICLE? Who do you think you're going to get to take their own car to go shovel sidewalks part time in the middle of the night?? The cream of the crop. Not saying these guys shouldn't take pride in their work but come on, these guys would be better off working at a pizza joint.


Exactly. You have to make this oh-so glamorous job as good as possible to make people motivated to want to work in nasty conditions.

I pay 20/hr. for help. This is because you have to be on-call all season long, work and sleep at odd hours, including holidays and any other occasion.

Never would I let someone use there own vehicle to do work for me out of the shear liability issues that can come from that.

...


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## mikegooseman (Dec 28, 2009)

cubanb343;1358892 said:


> I don't understand why some of you guys are so shocked about the kind of help you get. This is landscaping and snowplowing. And in this first case, SHOVELING. PART TIME. WITH YOUR OWN VEHICLE? Who do you think you're going to get to take their own car to go shovel sidewalks part time in the middle of the night?? The cream of the crop. Not saying these guys shouldn't take pride in their work but come on, these guys would be better off working at a pizza joint.


 Agreed... for $9.50 an hour with their own car !! who is buying the de-icing products ?? :laughing::laughing:
You get what you pay for, and even if you call them kids or other wise, they think or have somewhat of an idea as to what we as company owners are making dollar wise, make no mistake the same way word of mouth helps us, it can also bite you in the ass...IMO


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## Indy (Sep 23, 2007)

OCCUPY A SHOVEL..........I like it.


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## BPS#1 (Oct 16, 2011)

Had one this week.



He was so pathetic that he didn't even offer an excuse.

Just didn't answer the phone when it came time for the $20 shovel money.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

cubanb343;1358892 said:


> I don't understand why some of you guys are so shocked about the kind of help you get. This is landscaping and snowplowing. And in this first case, SHOVELING. PART TIME. WITH YOUR OWN VEHICLE? Who do you think you're going to get to take their own car to go shovel sidewalks part time in the middle of the night?? The cream of the crop. Not saying these guys shouldn't take pride in their work but come on, these guys would be better off working at a pizza joint.


I agree 100%....The guys you get are one small step above a Carnival Worker....


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

White Gardens;1358958 said:


> Exactly. You have to make this oh-so glamorous job as good as possible to make people motivated to want to work in nasty conditions.
> 
> I pay 20/hr. for help. This is because you have to be on-call all season long, work and sleep at odd hours, including holidays and any other occasion.
> 
> ...


How would your liability be in different than a pizza joint with delivery drivers or a pool company with pool cleaners? Not insulting but asking a question...


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## BPS#1 (Oct 16, 2011)

Its in the insurance coverage your company carries.


If you have an employee traveling for your work in his car and he has a wreck and kills folks or injures them........... as I understand it your GL insurance is going to take a hit.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

BPS#1;1359180 said:


> Its in the insurance coverage your company carries.
> 
> If you have an employee traveling for your work in his car and he has a wreck and kills folks or injures them........... as I understand it your GL insurance is going to take a hit.


How would that diff if employee was driving a company vehicle??


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## BPS#1 (Oct 16, 2011)

I don't know if there is any difference.

We need an insurance expert to explain that.


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## hlntoiz (Jan 13, 2009)

NickT;1357460 said:


> Its amazing the work ethic of some people,I actually am surprised some of these people have gotten by for so long. We will be supporting them with govt checks.


Thank Obama!



Weenuk;1358862 said:


> This is the reason I purchase equipment over manpower. Equipment does not come up with lame excuses....


Exactly

I pay $15 per hr cash to start. If you want more, show me something. You have to earn it, I am not just going to give it to you. The average night for them they are actually working about 40% of the time they are on the clock. If they did good I usually add a few hours at the end of their day plus Breakfast.

Just bought another truck for One of my guys this year. He has been shoveling with me for about 3 years, never missed a day, unless we discussed it. now he is making much better $ and loves it.

I have no problem paying people what they are worth. IMO you have to earn it. I know I had too.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

SNOWLORD;1358055 said:


> I would like to think that I hold the record for most excuses heard over the years but maybe I dont. I have often thought of writing a book Im sure I could fill hundreds of pages. Heres a few of the more memorable ones.#1 I cant haul snow tonight because I had a vasectomy the other day. #2 My girlfriend is here and she is really mad I have to go and I say to him tell her you will be free in 2 hours when we are finished a long pause on the cell phone and then he says she has laid down in front of the skidloader Im operating and said if I stay 1 minute longer just run her over to which I replied bury her in the pile we can find her in the spring. #3 We were shorthanded one night and one of my regular guys says to me I know of a homeless guy who could help I say go get him he returns and the guy is on a bicycle its 2 am and its cold out anyway he helps for a few hours and says Im hungry I run to McD's bring him back a burger he seems happy, less than an hour later he flags me down and says I really should get back to my dumpster. #4 A friend of mine is in one of my older dumptrucks hauling snow that I am loading 1am he says Im cold I say toughen up buttercup 2am Im really cold, so I run down to walmart and buy little burner and a small propane tank I think to cook on when camping I jump in the truck and stick it in the beverage holder light it and tell him he will be warm now a few rounds he seems happy then out the window flies a flaming glove followed by his body on fire, as he is rolling around in the snowbank I jump out and say to him you cant complain about being cold when your on fire now can you, he made one more round and suddenly a cab pulls up to the big snow pile and he jumped in and he was gone. I have hundereds if not thousands of these stories.


OMG. I feel bad for you but that is a funny post.

Same crap here. I remember a guy told me he was gonna run to the store to get a pack of smokes. Never came back lol.

Another guy showed up and started working. Few minutes later didnt see him. Car was gone. Of course he was on my doorstep to get his check a week later.


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## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

I had one guy tell me he wouldn't shovel for less than $30 per hour CASH!!


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

deicepro;1359326 said:


> I had one guy tell me he wouldn't shovel for less than $30 per hour CASH!!


I wouldn't either.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

There must be a lot of people smoking some really good stuff thinking $10 hour shoveling snow is good money.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

32vld;1359460 said:


> There must be a lot of people smoking some really good stuff thinking $10 hour shoveling snow is good money.


A guy I hired was shoveling for 8.50/hr! I start them off at 12.00 which is the norm. and he was a no show. Didn't surprise me though, he seemed like the typical looser you see around here every day, no ambition in life, just getting by.


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## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

start drug testing. then see what you get. doubt you'll even get any applicants to be on a shovel crew.


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## SiLlY (Nov 28, 2011)

You think these guys are bad.. try hiring grunts for linework, cable gypsy or what ever you want to call aerial utility construction workers. I know of one company that had a program (internally) for drug and alcohol addiction.

Forget about drug testing... Might as well close the doors or pass out goldenseal (sp?).

You where lucky if they just quit or didn't show up. A good day was when you noticed less employees but your equipment was still around and not in a pawn shop.

And the pay is almost always great!


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

It is so difficult to locate decent trustworthy employees. I offer an above average wage and season end bonuses based on performance and not missing shifts.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Weenuk;1360002 said:


> It is so difficult to locate decent trustworthy employees. I offer an above average wage and season end bonuses based on performance and not missing shifts.


Tried that.....didn't work,lol Hell I even tried starting guys out at 20.00/hr. a few years ago and still got pieces of work. I got a ton of responses but still only about 20% of applicant's came to the meeting. And of those who actually showed up the first few storms were so slow and just lazy guys non of them made the cut.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

cubanb343;1359552 said:


> start drug testing. then see what you get. doubt you'll even get any applicants to be on a shovel crew.


Sad isn't it. Maybe I should start offering weed as a bonus,lol


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

Brian Young;1360006 said:


> Tried that.....didn't work,lol Hell I even tried starting guys out at 20.00/hr. a few years ago and still got pieces of work. I got a ton of responses but still only about 20% of applicant's came to the meeting. And of those who actually showed up the first few storms were so slow and just lazy guys non of them made the cut.


Thanx for making look forward to years of excuses, lazy workers and the stress of wanting to kill the truly pathic losers


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## SiLlY (Nov 28, 2011)

Brian Young;1360007 said:


> Sad isn't it. Maybe I should start offering weed as a bonus,lol


LMFAO... I bet you would get applicants by the thousands!


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

Brian Young;1360007 said:


> Sad isn't it. Maybe I should start offering weed as a bonus,lol


My old boss only did snow removal to keep us employees in a winter job. He paid enough during the summer not to have the winter headache of this job. We realized this and were some what grateful in the continued winter pay.

On the summer end, I truly believe people apply because they believe they can smoke the weeds we remove from flowerbeds.....


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## SiLlY (Nov 28, 2011)

Weenuk;1360018 said:


> My old boss only did snow removal to keep us employees in a winter job. He paid enough during the summer not to have the winter headache of this job. We realized this and were some what grateful in the continued winter pay.
> 
> On the summer end, I truly believe people apply because they believe they can smoke the weeds we remove from flowerbeds.....


Hey.. Haven't you heard? It's natural and that makes it ok! lmao..


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

SiLlY;1360019 said:


> Hey.. Haven't you heard? It's natural and that makes it ok! lmao..


Were we all not at one time employees in this industry that seeked more so we took the leap and start our own businesses...


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## SiLlY (Nov 28, 2011)

Amen!

I'm just thankful that the success rate of the aforementioned is extremely short lived. And most customers have learned or will learn how to spot and weed out the riff raff. Other wise.. competition with the people we're joking about would be more damaging.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Weenuk;1360021 said:


> Were we all not at one time employees in this industry that seeked more so we took the leap and start our own businesses...


...and that leads us to the crux of the problem: The ambitious, smart, hard workers that make great employees are more likely to go into business for themselves. The people you can hire for an hourly hard (shoveling) or dangerous (unskilled linemen) job are the ones who don't have that level of brains or drive.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Why would anyone require an employee to provide their own transportation from account to account? 

And let's face it, these sidewalk crews are employees, not subcontractors. 

I have some competitors that do the same thing around me and have never understood it.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

theholycow;1360026 said:


> ...and that leads us to the crux of the problem: The ambitious, smart, hard workers that make great employees are more likely to go into business for themselves. The people you can hire for an hourly hard (shoveling) or dangerous (unskilled linemen) job are the ones who don't have that level of brains or drive.


I could not have typed that better mysel. Your totally correct about your statement. This is occurring to me now with my summer employer who I gave a choice to, pay me more or I shall go and expand my snow business into lawncare. He made his decision and I purchased another Stihl blower and two Honda mowers. Some of his clients sure like this idea..


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## SiLlY (Nov 28, 2011)

theholycow;1360026 said:


> ...and that leads us to the crux of the problem: The ambitious, smart, hard workers that make great employees are more likely to go into business for themselves. The people you can hire for an hourly hard (shoveling) or dangerous (unskilled linemen) job are the ones who don't have that level of brains or drive.


Absolutely! But understanding that.. what happened to the entry level good guy? Ya know? I've trained hundreds of grunts and those that succeed, within a year or two, are ready to start moving up the ladder. Somewhere in time.. we lost the ambitious hard worker who was willing to put in grunt work to grow. Today.. what we have to work with are the guys looking for a free ride or ones too smart to touch a tool that might bring sweat. The good ones are out there but I think we have to change the lure. And the first thing I could remember looking for, when I searched for work.. was stability, professionalism and reliability from my employer. Unfortunately.. in some of our climates.. the seasonal work doesn't attract that crowd very well.


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## SiLlY (Nov 28, 2011)

Weenuk;1360052 said:


> I could not have typed that better mysel. Your totally correct about your statement. This is occurring to me now with my summer employer who I gave a choice to, pay me more or I shall go and expand my snow business into lawncare. He made his decision and I purchased another Stihl blower and two Honda mowers. Some of his clients sure like this idea..


Damn skippy.. That's what I do! Thumbs Up


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

SiLlY;1360060 said:


> Damn skippy.. That's what I do! Thumbs Up


I gave him the chance to pay me better and make me want to stay with his company. Hell, he had to expect an employee with a growing snow business would require more than peanuts for pay. He was being to creedy andnow he shall lose more than whathe would hve paid me at what I was asking.....


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

SiLlY;1360057 said:


> Absolutely! But understanding that.. what happened to the entry level good guy?


He's not looking for work. 

Sure, there's a few of those guys around who have just made the decision to get into that line of work, or who are working for jerks and planning to work for someone else...but let's face it, it's impossible for that supply to ever come close to meeting demand.


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## SiLlY (Nov 28, 2011)

Weenuk;1360071 said:


> I gave him the chance to pay me better and make me want to stay with his company. Hell, he had to expect an employee with a growing snow business would require more than peanuts for pay. He was being to creedy andnow he shall lose more than whathe would hve paid me at what I was asking.....


It's a shame when an employer outgrows himself and starts to see his employees as numbers instead of people. I understand it's all about the numbers but I like a company that grows together and constantly. And in that process.. you are going to have some people that have outgrown what an employer can give them. Those should go start their own thing if so inclined. I would help them grow past me. I might need him to remember me, someday.

It happens all the time with linemen. We're contractors. Our supervisors outgrow the contractor life sometimes and decide to go in-house with the large firms we get our work from. The 401 and benefits appeal to them. It's smart to have friends on the inside, if you know what I mean. Or.. they start their own companies. I would rather be friends with my upcoming competition. We all need to eat.


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## SiLlY (Nov 28, 2011)

theholycow;1360078 said:


> He's not looking for work.
> 
> Sure, there's a few of those guys around who have just made the decision to get into that line of work, or who are working for jerks and planning to work for someone else...but let's face it, it's impossible for that supply to ever come close to meeting demand.


lol.. That's right!

Yeah. It's the issue we face every time we have a position open. Which in turn stales our promotion rate.


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## Flipper (Nov 1, 2001)

Shoveling sucks. It's long, hard work. We sit in trucks while they are outside sweating in there core while their toes and fingers are cold.

I pay shovelers far more then anyone has quoted here and have had pretty good success in keeping them for a season and beyond. Actually we pay hourly with bonuses. So getting each job done quickly is better then milking the hours. We have more shovelers then we need because, just like me plow subs, I realize its seasonal part time work, many have other jobs. There is a list based on time with us. I start at the top and take whatever time each person can give me. Sometimes, people can't start when we need them or have to leave halfway through, others work the whole shift. Either way we get enough to do the job.

Then we bill correctly for shoveling. It still makes us a profit. When companies question the bids I can tell them how long it will take and provide references of how well walks are cleared. 

Shovelers meet us at a job near where they live (easier then driving up to the shop) and then we transport them from job to job.


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## NFDDJS (Sep 22, 2009)

I have three guys plowing a parking lot this winter, one guy has been with me for 2 years now and is running my backhoe, the two of guys are new. I stopped into the parking lot last winter to see what they wanted for food and the two clowns in the trucks I cant find. I drive up to the backhoe and ask him where the two truck are at and he tellls me one of them when to go get fuel and called the guy in the other truck because he needed a jump start. So I call both of them and and nothing, so rather then trying to find what gas station they are at I drive over to the sub shop to get them all food. As I pull in one of them calls me and say that they just got the truck started and they are topping off both trucks with fuel. So I pull into the parking lot at the sub shop that is about 2 miles from the closest gas station and park next to my two other trucks both sitting with the keys in them running. Walk in to the sub shop, put my orders in -2 and make a point not to look at the two clowns. When the subs were done I walked over to them and said "you might want to start looking for a ride" walked out shut off and locked up both of my trucks and started plowing at the lot they should have been doing. I have not heard from the two of them at all. Thinking back I should have had them drive to two trucks back so I didnt have to deal with picking them up but they got the point and I have two new guys for the next storm and I hope they work out better...


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## tonychavalia (Nov 22, 2009)

$9.50 isnt bad money in states like Michigan that are running double digit unemployment.

We also have people with masters degrees working at KFC.

$9.50 is a good start (feeler gauge) to see how an new employees work ethic is. If they show initiative then take care of them give them a significant bump which is also a moral booster.

My first job was washing dishes for $5 buck an hour for 10 hours straight in a hot kitchen. I would have gladly shoveled snow for $9.50.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

tonychavalia;1360401 said:


> We also have people with masters degrees working at KFC.


Master degree means squat. I've known several MBAs, one from Babson, that couldn't run a small shoe store.


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## tonychavalia (Nov 22, 2009)

I agree most masters arent worth much. I used the comment to convey how dire the employment market is in my area.

I have met a few with masters degrees that were "dense".


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## NFDDJS (Sep 22, 2009)

I wish I could find people to work that cheap. Shovelers I pay $14. And truck drivers $20. Equipment guys $23.... I have some guys that have been with me for years make up to 8.50 an hour more then those rates


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## beam (Jan 24, 2009)

and every body wants to know why some of us hire hispanics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! great workers want more for their families


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

beam;1360442 said:


> and every body wants to know why some of us hire hispanics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! great workers want more for their families


EXACTLY, we have hispanics working in our vineyards too, hard workers, good family people and honest.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

tonychavalia;1360401 said:


> $9.50 isnt bad money in states like Michigan that are running double digit unemployment.
> 
> We also have people with masters degrees working at KFC.
> 
> ...


Would you shovel for $9.50 right now? I wouldn't. So that means neither do my employees. I would never consider paying someone under $10\hour for shoveling. That's insane.



2COR517;1360407 said:


> Master degree means squat. I've known several MBAs, one from Babson, that couldn't run a small shoe store.


I do know one who is extremely intelligent though. Seems like his name starts with a "P", but I can't recall the rest of it.


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## jklawn&Plow (Jan 8, 2011)

$10/hr to shovel. Geez last winter I had 2months off if you count the days I didn't work. $10/hr part time must be $5000 tops for 4 months of work. If I had a "real job for the full 4 months its like getting $5/hr. "Big deal, let me make you my priority" Shovelers should be making $20/hr if they are on call and you expect to cater to your weather dependent schedule..


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Look guys we all know shoveling sucks for the most part and it takes a special person to do it (again, I personally don't think its that bad, I did it!). But areas like ours your lucky to get 40/hr for a plow truck. But, if I needed additional income and committed to doing it I would and give 100%. I had a guy call me today and said well I used to plow for somebody and went on and on about it. I politely well sir, we're looking for sidewalk shoveler's not driver's at this time. He goes on to ask what trucks, plow's, if he could use his garden tractor and OMG, on and on. I finally said sir if your interested show up at our shop at tomorrow and he hangs up on me,lol ICARUMBA! I NEED A BEER!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

jklawn&Plow;1360855 said:


> $10/hr to shovel. Geez last winter I had 2months off if you count the days I didn't work. $10/hr part time must be $5000 tops for 4 months of work. If I had a "real job for the full 4 months its like getting $5/hr. "Big deal, let me make you my priority" Shovelers should be making $20/hr if they are on call and you expect to cater to your weather dependent schedule..


I disagree, if you dont want to be on call then find a different line of work. $20/Hr if you have your own route or certain accounts you're responsible for is fine. $20/Hr for a ride along guy is to much. $13-15( haven't found to many that are worth this even.) is tops for me unless you prove dependable over several seasons.

By the way, the OP did say he was paying $9.50/Hr CASH! If you don't have a full time job and you don't want to make $50-60 bucks cash for a morning of work, you're a fool. Doesn't mean it has to be your life's work, just some money to pay the bills for a winter or 2.


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## Flipper (Nov 1, 2001)

My shovelers can and sometimes do make more per hour (for the hours they work) then plow drivers. I also bill more per hour for shoveling. I have a condo that is an easy 30-45 minute plow and then 9-10 man hours of shoveling for an 3-5" storm. I will usual have 4-5 guys there. They pay a monthly rate but the shoveling is by far the biggest part of the bill. I see lots of bids where shoveling isn't even listed as an item with a price. These are the guys that are paying 8-10 an hour. Its an afterthought to them. To me its a service we offer and will be compensated for.

Pay well and bill correctly. 

As I said, I have a list of guys who have other jobs but are always willing to show up and make some extra cash. I have a schoolteacher and a couple of firemen, and an assistant bank manager among the group. People like making extra cash if the money is right for the work.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Flipper;1360976 said:


> My shovelers can and sometimes do make more per hour (for the hours they work) then plow drivers. I also bill more per hour for shoveling. I have a condo that is an easy 30-45 minute plow and then 9-10 man hours of shoveling for an 3-5" storm. I will usual have 4-5 guys there. They pay a monthly rate but the shoveling is by far the biggest part of the bill. I see lots of bids where shoveling isn't even listed as an item with a price. These are the guys that are paying 8-10 an hour. Its an afterthought to them. To me its a service we offer and will be compensated for.
> 
> Pay well and bill correctly.
> 
> As I said, I have a list of guys who have other jobs but are always willing to show up and make some extra cash. I have a schoolteacher and a couple of firemen, and an assistant bank manager among the group. People like making extra cash if the money is right for the work.


Why would you have 9-10 man hours of shoveling? Don't you have snowblowers?


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## wizardsr (Aug 8, 2006)

Add one to the pile...

Hired a new guy to pull our 12' sidewalk trailer between 4 larger accounts and run the 4 wheeler. He seemed pumped, got him trained, ready to rock. First event was a week ago, easy 1" with a little ice underneath, he calls 5 minutes from start time. He says he's on the way, but can't do the job. Says something about his new girlfriend is being really selfish and wants him home, not out working in the cold. I just about asked him to look between his legs and tell me what he saw, but I kept my cool and told him to meet me in 5 with my keys and paperwork. He shows up a few minutes later and tries to hand me $40 cash to cover what I paid him for training (as if that's all he cost me LOL), and I told him I don't want your money and to just go home. He insisted and I told him to go give it to Nick (my best guy), as he'll be the one picking up the slack for his ass. 

I've seen my share of goofballs, the good ones I try to hang on to, pay them well to keep them, etc. Unfortunately the good ones have the potential to make a lot more than I can pay for part time snow work by working good paying full-time gigs. Best guys are self employed, hard working, motivated construction workers, handymen, etc. that are looking for extra money as the weather gods see fit. Thumbs Up


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

dfd9;1360806 said:


> ...
> 
> I do know one who is extremely intelligent though. Seems like his name starts with a "P", but I can't recall the rest of it.


Sounds like an interesting guy. I personally have a degree in B.S. from Crowbar College. I followed that up with some graduate work at The School of Hard Knocks. Need a couple more credits for my Master of B.S..


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

I liked this post, lets bump it up and hear some new excuses and stories lol


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## Flipper (Nov 1, 2001)

Ha. Since I never answered the question I will now. We do use snowblowers and other machines, but the account I was referring to is a 100+ unit townhouse style condo complex. Each unit has a deck and stairs that have to be shoveled as well as the walks etc. In a 6"+ storm this takes a lot of man hours.


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## icudoucme (Dec 3, 2008)

2COR517;1361029 said:


> Sounds like an interesting guy. I personally have a degree in B.S. from Crowbar College. I followed that up with some graduate work at The School of Hard Knocks. Need a couple more credits for my Master of B.S..


Hey we went to the same schools!

Okay I have 2 businesses a Pizzeria and a small snow removal & site prep business.

As others have stated between my parents (who have owned the pizzeria for 35 years and I bought them out) we could write a book. Here are a couple from last month.

A cashier (mid 40's single female) called in saying she was to stressed out about work and couldn't come in... 
A Pizza maker 21 y/o male 6'2" about 250lbs calls in saying his arms hurt from pulling pizza's out of the oven the night before and can't make it in to work...
A another cashier mid 20's bothered my HR rep for a job for 3 months. Finally he hired her.She said she needed as many hours as she could get so I scheduled her for over time (40 hours of training and if she caught on some regular shift work) after 2 days she says it's to much work for her, can she only work 2 days a week.. So I told her no she can either work the 40 hours or quit. She said she would quit. 2 days later I get DSS paper work for unemployment benefits.. Needless to say she's not getting anything.

Snow shovelers
First good snow of the year 12" in less then 12 hours. At the 1" trigger I called them out. Shoveler #1 "The roads are really bad I can't get out of my driveway do I really have to work in this?" Me "Yes remember we are in the snow removal business you said you can travel in the snow" Shoveler " I didn't think the weather was going to be this bad" I wanted to say "You're an Idiot it's only an inch of snow... Wait a few hours.." I hate light winters only for the mere fact it makes lazy employees. They forget what real snow is...

So I call shoveler number 2 "I'm really tired I don't think I'll be much help is it okay if I stay home tonight" me "WTF you asked me for a job now it's time to work and you don't want to?" Shoveler "No man I'm just tired and I know you work fast"

Just to add to the pay conversation, Paying someone more when hiring doesn't mean they are going to work for it. I've found and learned threw others that someone with a good work ethic will do the same job for 7.25 as they will for 20.00. It boils down to how they where raised and how much pride they take in their work. With that being said everyone starts off at 7.25 if they show up on time with a proper uniform for training, can do some basic problem solving, and follow the few simple rules they get a raise to 9.50. The harder they work the more they get paid. The less they work the less they get paid or replaced.

I have literally gone threw 400 hundred applications to try and find 20 that I would even consider for an interview and out of the 20 there are hardly any good workers. Alot of talkers but nothing to back it up. 
Remember if you shake a prospective employees hand and the skin is soft and void of callist they probably won't work to hard...


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

dfd9;1360030 said:


> Why would anyone require an employee to provide their own transportation from account to account?
> 
> And let's face it, these sidewalk crews are employees, not subcontractors.
> 
> I have some competitors that do the same thing around me and have never understood it.


It all depends.

If they are using your equipment then they are employees.

If they are using their own equipment then they are subcontractors.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

icudoucme;1588931 said:


> Remember if you shake a prospective employees hand and the skin is soft and void of callist they probably won't work to hard...


Thats how I hire people for baling hay. Though it seems I can't find anyone even willing to do that anymore. Hell I used to be able to pay my high school friends 10 an hour to do that, now I can't even pay someone 15 an hour to do it anymore.


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## excav8ter (Oct 7, 2009)

It seems there is a lack of work ethic in people under the age of 32-34 years old. I had this talk with a friend just a few days ago. It's rare to find a gung-ho person between the age of 16-32 who likes to work hard and enjoy seeing something get done with his hands. I am 44, and been plowing since i was 15, and still enjoy it. I have a "partner in plowing" and we hired a young guy to help us this year....he is VERY reliable, always on time or early and does a great job. I hope i can entice him to stay for next year.


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## R75419 (Feb 11, 2012)

I am a 37 year old bricklayer in a successful family business. We started plowing last year on our own, (My buddy that I plowed/shoveled for 10 years, went out of business) and I never have a problem, nor do our employees (both well under 32), shoveling for less than 15/hr for other companies that need help after we are done with our route. It is all about how your raised and the work ethic your mom and dad whipped:yow!: into you with the apparatus they choose.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

White Gardens;1358958 said:


> Exactly. You have to make this oh-so glamorous job as good as possible to make people motivated to want to work in nasty conditions.
> 
> I pay 20/hr. for help. This is because you have to be on-call all season long, work and sleep at odd hours, including holidays and any other occasion.
> 
> ...


I hire guys as subs not employes 
So they drive there own truck I rent my ATV + trailer to them They have there own Insurance
I pay for salt and gas


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

beanz27;1589060 said:


> Thats how I hire people for baling hay. Though it seems I can't find anyone even willing to do that anymore. Hell I used to be able to pay my high school friends 10 an hour to do that, now I can't even pay someone 15 an hour to do it anymore.


LOL I use pick hay/straw bales I would get 10cents per bale made good money when pick up 2000 bales per day

Now cant find nobody will pick it up that way They want 10 per hour only pick up 700 per day

Kids dont want work hard Myself I rather pick up by he bale more you pick up more you make


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Im 18, starting my own Lawn Care business, over the last three sumer I have worked for my school (1 month grant from state), a Ferry doing Landscaping (I've gotten a raise or bonus each year for hard work and reliability), a restaurant (after working for the ferry), and now do snow removal for a company I met on here shoveling.
I will agree with everyone about my generation being lazy, my 17 year old brother has NEVER had a job, and complains when my mother tells him to get one. Also, many kids I went to school with are to lazy or unreliable to get jobs. Im happy to be a kid who enjoys working, and enjoys being employed in a economy that is this bad. I attend school full time, work for a company, and on the weekends am going to be starting my company. Hardwork pays off, Just happy my father always taught me and my youngest brother (15 and already has a job) what hard work is and how it will keep you employed!


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## scottydosnntkno (Jan 4, 2010)

Antlerart06;1589494 said:


> LOL I use pick hay/straw bales I would get 10cents per bale made good money when pick up 2000 bales per day
> 
> Now cant find nobody will pick it up that way They want 10 per hour only pick up 700 per day
> 
> Kids dont want work hard Myself I rather pick up by he bale more you pick up more you make


that money would work out to be almost the same.....

2000/10 = $200

8hrs x $10 = $80

$200/$80 = 2.5

700 x 2.5 = 1750 bales for $200

not that far off in the production.....


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

scottydosnntkno;1589523 said:


> that money would work out to be almost the same.....
> 
> 2000/10 = $200
> 
> ...


Math is meaningless. You can use math to prove anything that's even remotely true. 

...though I suppose if the hay bales are time sensitive, you might have to hire more $10/hr boys to do it all at once.


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## szorno (Jan 3, 2002)

We have a little different market & philosphy. We are semi-rural mountain Colorado. Average 120" (until last year and now..) I have 3 commercial jobs that need shoveling. total 3.5-4 hrs. I talked to some friends and asked about their sons. I told them I would pay $25/hr but only 2 hrs per storm work unless we got over 4-5". That keeps me at a 38% margin. They are glad for the work. They are subs and I provide the dry melt. They provide shovels and transportation. I have had 4 young men work thru our company well into college or career.(not to mention my own kids) Appreciation and coaching seem to go a long way. Knowing their dads doesn't hurt.  Not possible with large companies, but works great for smaller companies.


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## blazer2plower (Nov 19, 2011)

I was in a union for 5 years never again. Went on strike for 9 mouths for what unlimited sick days. Company offered a 3 dollar pay raise. Nope didn't take it. The union wanted the sick days. Company offered 3.25 nope. Nothing company said 2 more sick days and a 2.50 reduced hourly. So instead of 20.15 an hour well this kid told them where to shove it then the company closed down 1 year later. That union did nothing for me. I'm happy working full time at a none union shop and plow snow when there is snow to plow.


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

Brian Young;1360007 said:


> Sad isn't it. Maybe I should start offering weed as a bonus,lol


 Bonus? Heck, just give them a few joints and they'd be happy with just that as pay! LOL



SiLlY;1360014 said:


> LMFAO... I bet you would get applicants by the thousands!


As long as he's giving them good hydroponic stuff, they'd probably be to work on time or even early with a strong work ethic knowing they'll be getting toasted. LOL


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

theholycow;1589541 said:


> Math is meaningless. You can use math to prove anything that's even remotely true.
> 
> ...though I suppose if the hay bales are time sensitive, you might have to hire more $10/hr boys to do it all at once.


Can't really time bales though. We've done 4k bales in 2 hours some days, other days we go as slow as 1k a day. Depends on the help you got. I pay by the bale for some guys, others want an actual for sure amount, especially after this hay year, got half the amount of bales we normally got.


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## dunlapslawncare (Feb 12, 2013)

Brian Young;1357380 said:


> I love to hear all the excuses as to why they can't work. Last year I thought I heard some beauties and this year is off to a good start.......So we had our annual plow meeting where everyone comes to our shop just to let everyone know whats expected etc. So today I call all my sidewalk guys to set up a time to show them the route and one kid (hardly a kid, in his 20's) calls back to say his mom won't let him use her car to carry a single stage snow blower. I said ok what about just a shovel, he said no, nothing with snow on it....OMG just man up and tell me you don't want to work. 1 out of 50 people anymore are just plain soft


our sidewalk guys must be brothers


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## bln (Feb 12, 2004)

I had a sizeable complex, 6 guys 4 hours of shoveling. One day we 10". After we have been out 8 hours I call the crew on that Job to see how it was going and they were at the movie theater. They didn't bother to call me or anything, just up and left and decided to go the movies. Good call guys. I quit hiring kids who live at home. I must of been raised differently, when I turned 16 my parents charged $300 a month to live at home. When I moved out they wrote me a check for all the money I had given to them, it was a huge help when I needed a down payment on a house.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Generally speaking the labor pool sucks, it seems 1 maybe 2 out of 10 end up being worth hanging on. When you account for the time/expense to train it's almost a loosing battle.
Summer of 2011 I fired a kid for raising hell on my Zero Turn Mower, he was tearing up the turf and popping wheelies. When I asked him what his major malfunction was he said "Dad I didn't want to work today, I really wanted to go fishing instead" . Yep it was my own kid he was 13 y/o getting paid $12.00 an hour to ride a mower. Fast forward to now he wants to work when ever he can, he takes care of a couple neighbors driveways with the ATV and then goes out with me to ride shot gun and shovel. 
In my case I didn't want to be the father a worthless parasite feeding off of handouts and he needed to know nobody is entitled to anything, you have to earn your way in life.


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## BladeBlowBucket (Feb 6, 2013)

BUFF;1596699 said:


> Generally speaking the labor pool sucks, it seems 1 maybe 2 out of 10 end up being worth hanging on. When you account for the time/expense to train it's almost a loosing battle.
> Summer of 2011 I fired a kid for raising hell on my Zero Turn Mower, he was tearing up the turf and popping wheelies. When I asked him what his major malfunction was he said "Dad I didn't want to work today, I really wanted to go fishing instead" . Yep it was my own kid he was 13 y/o getting paid $12.00 an hour to ride a mower. Fast forward to now he wants to work when ever he can, he takes care of a couple neighbors driveways with the ATV and then goes out with me to ride shot gun and shovel.
> In my case I didn't want to be the father a worthless parasite feeding off of handouts and he needed to know nobody is entitled to anything, you have to earn your way in life.


Thumbs Up ..."BRAVO" .....Thumbs Up.... Very well Put ! ...Thumbs Up


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

BUFF;1596699 said:


> Generally speaking the labor pool sucks, it seems 1 maybe 2 out of 10 end up being worth hanging on. When you account for the time/expense to train it's almost a loosing battle.


1 out of 10 is an extremely optimistic estimate, unless you're talking about 1 out of 10 that you'd actually hire.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

theholycow;1596750 said:


> 1 out of 10 is an extremely optimistic estimate, unless you're talking about 1 out of 10 that you'd actually hire.


It takes 10 to get 1-2 that are worth hiring/keeping as a sub.
Through networking and word of mouth has been the best way for me to find help.
I only have subs too.


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## RSE (Nov 27, 2012)

I put an ad on craigslist for a LOCAL shoveler in my area.....within walking distance to a certain Southern New England college for the job is right next door....get two calls:

#1. "Hi, I am calling about the ad on CL for the snow shoveler. 
"do you live in the area close to......."
"Well, no I am in Northern Virginia but I could get a ride"

#2. "Hi, I am calling about the ad on CL"
"do you live in the area close to......."
"No but, I could bring my Bobcat and save alot of time..."



Unreal..................no more CL.


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## Vermontster (Oct 10, 2012)

The two most common ones I've heard are " I can't get DOWN off my hill" and "My gilfriend/boyfriend is sick". On my day off if the timing is right I work for one of my friends as a shoveler/ cleanup guy. $7.50 hr. from the minute he picks me up until he drops me off, and he keeps my stomach full, not an east task. He says I'm the best worker he's ever seen.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

BUFF;1596699 said:


> Generally speaking the labor pool sucks, it seems 1 maybe 2 out of 10 end up being worth hanging on. When you account for the time/expense to train it's almost a loosing battle.
> Summer of 2011 I fired a kid for raising hell on my Zero Turn Mower, he was tearing up the turf and popping wheelies. When I asked him what his major malfunction was he said "Dad I didn't want to work today, I really wanted to go fishing instead" . Yep it was my own kid he was 13 y/o getting paid $12.00 an hour to ride a mower. Fast forward to now he wants to work when ever he can, he takes care of a couple neighbors driveways with the ATV and then goes out with me to ride shot gun and shovel.
> In my case I didn't want to be the father a worthless parasite feeding off of handouts and he needed to know nobody is entitled to anything, you have to earn your way in life.


I use the front of my truck for snow plowing and the back for junk removal. I've had my daughter work with me on several junk removal jobs. She is a good worker. But if she wasn't .... I would have done it your way !!!!!!!!


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