# Different Liquid Solutions



## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

So here is the deal, I'm getting into liquid this year. I have my sprayers, holding tanks and all that crap figured out but I would like some advice on the actual solution.


These are the solutions that we are considering:

Brine solution plus 10% Calcium Chloride $ 0.45 / Gallon (per mixed, delivered)
85%Brine %10geo55 5%Calcium Chloride $ 1.35 / Gallon (per mixed, delivered) 

Another solution we can mix ourselves would be the Brine solution plus %10 Calcium chloride and then we could add geo melt at out shop for about $3.00 per gallon giving us a 
80% Brine,10% geo, and 10% cal for about $0.75 / Gallon (delivered) 

My questions are:

1. What mix would you chose? 
2. Can they only be used as a pre treat ?
3. Do you have any other or different solutions that may work better? 
4. What kinda results can we expect to see? 



Thank you !

I would really like to get some responses form people that have actually used liquid or work closely with someone that has. Lets keep this a very informative thread.

Respectfully,

- Eric


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## rblake (Nov 17, 2007)

I will be new to liquids this year also. I have looked at caliper, brine solution, sugar beet - I will be trying a natural well brine that has sodium, calcium and magnesium in it. Just to expensive to try to have several options stored in bulk. I guess if i dont get the results out of the brine solution, then i will add some beet juice that I already use on my bulk salt.

Thought about making my own brine, but then you need the $6,000 machine etc etc.


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

I have used liquids since 2001-2002, for anti-icing and pre wetting. I think salt brine gives the most bang for the buck. I have also used a propriatory mag-chloride/corn steep blend. I found it was twice as good as salt brine, but not 10X the price as good


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## rblake (Nov 17, 2007)

DKG - when you use it for anti icing, what increase in rates do you do ? I know temp and 
type of snow would change things. Will be pretreating lots this year and then salting after we plow. Just wondering if I could use the liquid brine at a higher rate if we run low on bulk salt. Thanks


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## hiranger (Jan 5, 2002)

I was wondering where you are getting the brine solution? The companies that I have talked to are just trying to sell expensive products. I too am trying to supplement my salt usage due to the fast that I am only able to get a third of the salt that I normally can get.


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## rblake (Nov 17, 2007)

luckily, there is a supplier 2 hours from me that will deliver 5000 gallons at .20 per gallon. I believe i got a qoute for caliper 5000 or 500 for around $1.70 per gallon which is being trucked from indiana or illinois. I know my sugar beet from natural solutions comes out of indiana.


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

I apply brine approximately 50 gallons/acre. It helps with a cleaner scrape after plowing thus saving on the amount of salt after plowing. I have also used straight liquid in place of light salt applications. For hardpack or ice, definitely stay with salt.


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## icemen pro (Sep 4, 2008)

has any one ever used GEOMELT if so what is a good price for buying it thanks keith


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## rblake (Nov 17, 2007)

Dkg - thanks, I am probably wrong, but isnt geo melt and caliper the same product. Just different manufactors due to location in US. No i have not tried it but have heard it works very good and clean.


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## hiranger (Jan 5, 2002)

Geomelt is sold about an hour from where I live. I was quoted $3.00 a gallon for 275 gallon totes. I didn't think that was that great of a deal that's why I am asking about where to get the brine solutions.


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

Geomelt, Caliber, IceBan etc are all similar just like Coke & Pepsi.


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## mike_dmt (Oct 14, 2008)

Anyone work with MELTDOWN? Its a mag chloride product made by Envirotech?


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

DKG;607582 said:


> I apply brine approximately 50 gallons/acre. It helps with a cleaner scrape after plowing thus saving on the amount of salt after plowing. I have also used straight liquid in place of light salt applications. For hardpack or ice, definitely stay with salt.


Brine solution plus 10% Calcium Chloride

So are you thinking this should be a pretty hot mix?

Thanks


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

Sounds like a good mix, cost etc. I would go with a 90% brine 10% calcium or geo wichever has the most value, and keep a separate tank of calcium or mag to heat it up as conditions warrant.


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

how much cal can you put in there before it starts to get "slick"?


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

Who is selling the "Super Mix" in IL ? 
I spoke to Mike from SNI and there products look good but the price is high.
The Super mix looks do-able, with out breaking the bank. 
I know McHenry County uses Super Mix for everything now.


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

Vaughn Schultz;608663 said:


> how much cal can you put in there before it starts to get "slick"?


Cal & Mag get slick neer the freezing point 0c/32f. You would be heating the mix below -10c so slickness shouldn't be a problem. Having 10% in the mix should be ok.


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

Vaughn Schultz;608663 said:


> how much cal can you put in there before it starts to get "slick"?


Cal & Mag get slick neer the freezing point 0c/32f. You would be heating the mix below -10c so slickness shouldn't be a problem. Having 10% in the mix should be ok.


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## SnowMatt13 (Jan 8, 2003)

Todd,

Algonquin Twp. has a deal with McH.County to use their Supemix as well......
Talk to a MCHDOT driver, sometimes the supermix isn't so super in their opinions.
Super Mix is 85brine/10geomelt/5some type of chloride

Rblake....you don't need a $6K machine. I produce it in-house and it cost me less than $2K to do it. Pump, 1100 gallon tank, metal stock tank, plumbing supplies and gravity! I can make 1100 gallons in about 8 hours......
After intial investment I made it for approximately 5 cents per gallon last year.

We are blending ouselves this year in-house, one of very few who do. McHenry County does and I am not sure of any other muni's. We are using 80%brine20%GeoMelt55
We are getting our liquid fromSNI
Cheaper if you buy in bulk......2000 gallons or more
Staying away from the chlorides......


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

I make my own brine also. My brine maker is essentially a 45 gallon barrel.


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## BigWally (Oct 20, 2008)

*Homemade brine*

Been making my own brine in 55 gallon drums for 3 years works great.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

DKG;609779 said:


> I make my own brine also. My brine maker is essentially a 45 gallon barrel.


how about some pics and a lil how to info


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

icemen pro;607586 said:


> has any one ever used GEOMELT if so what is a good price for buying it thanks keith


Only as a bulk salt treatment.

Pricing depends on location. I have some thoughts on what really is a 'good' price.



rblake;607594 said:


> Dkg - thanks, I am probably wrong, but isnt geo melt and caliper the same product. Just different manufactors due to location in US. No i have not tried it but have heard it works very good and clean.


Not the same product, but similar.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Try this link...
Very informative, scroll down for liquids.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/reports/mopeap/mop0296a.htm


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

T-MAN;609935 said:


> how about some pics and a lil how to info


Basically filter water through salt. A small and simple brine maker can be made using a 5 gallon pail. Place the end of a garden hose at the bottom of the pail, fill the pail with salt. Turn the garden hose on slightly. The liquid that will flow over the top of the pail will be 23%salt brine. Make sure not to add the water too quickly. I made a bigger one using a 45 gallon plastic drum with a filter attached on the side close to the top. Hope this helps. Good luck


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

I have all my plans made for a pretty good brine maker but I just talked to a guy up north that has been using strait liquid cal 32% for years and has had really good luck with it as a pre application on the pavement. He said th only time its slick is if you over apply it. Other than that its great. I was going to start construction tomorrow on my brine maker but now I considering looking in to strait cal a little more. Am i smoking crack or is there some truth to this?????


Thanks !


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

If you can get liquid calcium for $1/gal or less I'd say go for it. I paid $2.75/gal for a mag liquid and found it was cheaper to just spread salt.


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

DKG;611398 said:


> If you can get liquid calcium for $1/gal or less I'd say go for it. I paid $2.75/gal for a mag liquid and found it was cheaper to just spread salt.


I can buy 32% liquid cal for $ .55 deliverd. I can spray that strait? as a pretreat?

Thanks again for your help


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

For $ .55 a gallon go for it. Remember it can get slick neer the freezing mark and if you over apply. It's not worth the hassle for $ .55


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

DKG;610575 said:


> Basically filter water through salt. A small and simple brine maker can be made using a 5 gallon pail. Place the end of a garden hose at the bottom of the pail, fill the pail with salt. Turn the garden hose on slightly. The liquid that will flow over the top of the pail will be 23%salt brine. Make sure not to add the water too quickly. I made a bigger one using a 45 gallon plastic drum with a filter attached on the side close to the top. Hope this helps. Good luck


how would that effectivly alwasy make it 23%?


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## Marek (Nov 16, 2005)

Can someone post a few pics of thier brine makers ? Or does anyone know where I could find some pics of brine makers?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Marek;612034 said:


> Can someone post a few pics of thier brine makers ? Or does anyone know where I could find some pics of brine makers?





SnoFarmer;610152 said:


> Try this link...
> Very informative, scroll down for liquids.
> http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/reports/mopeap/mop0296a.htm


This site will tell you just about everthing you want to know.
scroll down and you will Find it


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

elite1msmith;611849 said:


> how would that effectivly alwasy make it 23%?


The saturation point of salt brine is 23%. I monitor it with a hydrometer (battery tester), Continuously add salt and clean out and start over when the mix weakens.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Maybe this table will help.


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## Boast Enterpris (Oct 26, 2003)

how many square feet does a gallon of brine cover?? I read a lot of the information on the posted link and everyone does it different. I just was wondering what people in our line of work use as an average??


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## Q101ATFD (Oct 24, 2006)

Boast Enterpris;613368 said:


> how many square feet does a gallon of brine cover?? I read a lot of the information on the posted link and everyone does it different. I just was wondering what people in our line of work use as an average??


The going rate is in the area of 35 to 50 gallons per acre. That works out to 1 gallon per 900 to 1200 square feet.


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## Boast Enterpris (Oct 26, 2003)

Thanks for all the help.


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## hoosier57 (Oct 29, 2008)

The difference between the salt products and calcium & mag is working temps.
Ground temperature should be the determing factor for which product you use.
Salt usually is considered effective in the 17-20 degree F..(opinions will vary on this)
32% Calcium is effective to -25 F
30-31% Magnesium is effective to -15 F
Calcium or Mag products with additives have lower working temps.
One major point to consider is corrosive rating
I would recommend Pacific Northwest Snowfighters as a guide for choosing which product is best for your situation
They set the standards that most state agencies use and are recognized as the leading independent authority on product evaluation.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/partners/pns/
I would strongly suggest to consider using only products on their approved products list.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/partners/pns/pdf/PNSQPL.pdf
This can be a very confusing issue,but with some patience and digging,good information is available
I am not here to start any arguments,just pass along what little knowledge I have aquired.


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