# Ever think of hiring a sales guy?



## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Ever think of hiring a sales guy?

i suck at sales...

thinking of doing it in the spring


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Only sales?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

grandview;1522193 said:


> Only sales?


I'm thinking of hiring commission sales people to try to get new maintenance accounts. atm i dont have enough work to need hiring someone unless its a big landscape.


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

I have debated that all year long. i have a someone who has been in the turf/golf industry for years who lost his job and wanted to sell for me. just haven't been able to convince myself I can afford him...hopefully a great winter will make the decision easy,
Steve


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

xtreem3d;1522214 said:


> I have debated that all year long. i have a someone who has been in the turf/golf industry for years who lost his job and wanted to sell for me. just haven't been able to convince myself I can afford him...hopefully a great winter will make the decision easy,
> Steve


The way im thinking it would be fully commissioned. which that kind of sales job usually is. so thell get a chunk of the profit. but that chunk is from profits you wouldn't have without the sales guy.

but i dunno. would that really work in this industry?


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## WilliamOak (Feb 11, 2008)

From the sounds of it (other threads combined) you don't have enough profit to pay yourself enough let alone a sales guy.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

WilliamOak;1522266 said:


> From the sounds of it (other threads combined) you don't have enough profit to pay yourself enough let alone a sales guy.


Thus why i need to gain more customers


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Great. So he goes and sells snowplowing for 12.50 an hr and keeps half. So now your working for below minimum wage.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

And what would this salesperson make percent wise?


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

Is this "sales guy" a full time employee? A decent salesman could probably sell enough work to overwhelm a one truck snowplowing operation in about two days... then what? You lay him off?


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

I've thought about it and I have a solution for you. Move to Ohio..and I mean ANYWHERE in Ohio and I could keep you and as many trucks as you can beg/borrow/steal busy. Sidewalk guys too. I will pay you $45 an hour,like you charge up there, and you dont have to worry about a sales guy cause I will be that guy. And you dont have to pay me a dime in commission!

Let me know


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

cubicinches;1522299 said:


> Is this "salesman" a full time employee? A decent salesman could probably sell enough work to overwhelm a one truck snowplowing operation in about two days... then what? You lay him off?


I agree unless you are already have additional employees and someone who would be capable of running another crew any decent salesman will unemployed in a week or so. Also the office work, i.e. bidding, contracts, and scheduling, and billing will require a full time office person to keep up with the salesman.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

grandview;1522296 said:


> And what would this salesperson make percent wise?


That is the kind of questions i started the thread to get answers for.

In my area you get about 25 cuts a year. at 30 bucks thats 750 a year for cutting. lets say another 400 for plowing we are up to $1150 per year for basic services.

at the moment my break even is at about 50 percent. would be better if i had a full route, but thats what im starting at. so 575 in net profits; which would go up every sale they make.

$575 doesnt leave much room. If i paid 25% that would be 287.5 leaving me 287.5 profit.

unless i retain the customer for the next year it might not be worth doing. but then again. thats 287 i wouldnt have.

now lets say i did have a full schedule and my breakeven was around 25 percent. Sales guy would earn 431.25 and i would make 431.25. that would be much more worth it.

what do you think?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

So if salesman sells cutting/plowing for a yr,when does he get paid.Also your expenses so to high.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

cubicinches;1522299 said:


> Is this "sales guy" a full time employee? A decent salesman could probably sell enough work to overwhelm a one truck snowplowing operation in about two days... then what? You lay him off?


starting in the spring i could get as many as 4 crews going. would take a bit of work, but with a buddy of mine i could get it working.

but i think the real question is if you could actualy sell that many accounts that quickly in michigan. remember we have about the worse economy in all the nation. i know we have been the worse at various points.

as far as full time i guess that depends on how you look at it. alot of commission sales jobs are what you make them.

they would be paid strictly commission.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

grandview;1522320 said:


> So if salesman sells cutting/plowing for a yr,when does he get paid.Also *your expenses so to high*.


yes. but that is a percentage of gross, there are companies that pay dollar for dollar much more than i do, and some that pay a bit less than i do. my actual expenses arnt really that high, i jsut have only a handfull of clients which is my problem.

frankly that number would be much much better if the drought hadn't happened. my 800 per month customer turned into a 25 per month.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

so what do you guys think? is paying 431.25 to gain 431.25 net profits worth getting me to where i want to be?

is it a bad idea overall?

or is there a better way?


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## abbottfarm (Dec 27, 2010)

I'd probably learn sales myself before I'd hire anyone to do it for me. If a guy gets me a $1000 job and I have to pay him $500 because he got it for me, then no that isn't worth it in my opinion.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

abbottfarm;1522432 said:


> I'd probably learn sales myself before I'd hire anyone to do it for me. If a guy gets me a $1000 job and I have to pay him $500 because he got it for me, then no that isn't worth it in my opinion.


It would only be 250 on a 1000 job. 25%.

problem for me is im not a carasmatic kinda guy. in fact i suck at sales. I can do customer service, operations the office and accounting side of things. iv just never been good at selling.

my buddy (who is willing to sell to people for me) on the other hand. you just look at him and start reaching for your wallet.

I'm just not a sales guy and that makes it hard to get a business going.


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## abbottfarm (Dec 27, 2010)

Your right, I meant to type 250, but my mind was elsewhere. But to me it would not be worth it. You have to take into account all that goes along with having employee's. There's a lot to it, and it's a lot of added expense. Maybe you'd be better to have him teach you to sell...or take a class somewhere to learn what your lacking for being a salesman. I just can't see justifying having a dedicated sales guy for such a small business. Just my opinion though.


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## CashinH&P (Jan 14, 2012)

birddseedd;1522445 said:


> It would only be 250 on a 1000 job. 25%.
> 
> problem for me is im not a carasmatic kinda guy. in fact i suck at sales. I can do customer service, operations the office and accounting side of things. iv just never been good at selling.
> 
> ...


In this line of work, the onwer has to be a jack of all trades. It makes zero sense to me to hire a quy on commision to sell lawn care/plowing, your going to pay him more then your going to make your self.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

abbottfarm;1522467 said:


> Your right, I meant to type 250, but my mind was elsewhere. But to me it would not be worth it. You have to take into account all that goes along with having employee's. There's a lot to it, and it's a lot of added expense. Maybe you'd be better to have him teach you to sell...or take a class somewhere to learn what your lacking for being a salesman. I just can't see justifying having a dedicated sales guy for such a small business. Just my opinion though.


I can look into it. i know there was that "sell anything to anyone" self help book i saw at kinkos.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

CashinH&P;1522468 said:


> In this line of work, the onwer has to be a jack of all trades. It makes zero sense to me to hire a quy on commision to sell lawn care/plowing, your going to pay him more then your going to make your self.


well. your right. but this is the one area i need help on the most.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

I actualy offered to partner with my buddy. i was surprised he turned me down. might try it again next year.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

How are you going to get four crews by spring if your buddy won't even partner with you?
Honest question:
Do you have equipment for four crews?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

BossPlow2010;1522492 said:


> How are you going to get four crews by spring if your buddy won't even partner with you?
> Honest question:
> Do you have equipment for four crews?


we didnt partner. but we do work together alot. we do quotes together, work on projects together. fill in for each other. loan equipment.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

well. looked into the local college. seems the only dedicated marketing classes they have are online. i wont do well with online classes. will have to talk to them on the phone


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

To the OP: 

You need to think about your typical daily schedule. How many hours out of 10 are you selling? If your current schedule doesn't allow ample time to sell work, then what would someone else's time be worth for that extra work? Thats a real number you can come up with based on your budget. 

But the most important thing I've learned as I am beginning to approach this as well, is pricing systems. Too many guys have the "I can do it for uh.. $2,000?" type of attitude. Could I use your system today and come with the exact same number as you would for a job? I think that this is so essencial for the success of implementing a sales person. It needs to be based on production rates, set tiers of efficiency factors based on difficulty, hourly rates for everything, and then all programmed into a good spreadsheet.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

Plowing sells itself. People will pay for it, but who they pay is the question. You need to stand out from the next guy. You need to have respectable equipment, reliable equipment, and enough equipment. Brag that you do in fact have all insurances needed and a basic website is always good. Business cards and at least magnet truck signs. A guy came into my work the other day with a box of donuts and his new window cleaning business card. This is how sales are done. 

No sales guy is going to sell your business like you will. Even though he would be paid, he won't sell it with the same personal interest. You really need to get back to basics, bird. You seem to be putting the cart before the horse in many of your threads. You seem to think that spending money on everything but the basics will somehow majically grow your money. 

If I was you, here's my plan: Get rid of that 1/2 ton and get a 3/4 or 1 ton single wheel with the proper plow already on it. Then get comm auto and at least a 1 mill GL since most business want that. Hook up with a good accountant that you trust. Make some business cards and magnetic signs for the truck. Find a one guy to push a spreader (unless you have a truck spreader) and to shovel. Start small and find a non-plowing job to feed the family. Then start telling everybody and their grandmother that you plow. Tell every mom and pop business you go in that you plow and leave a card. Stop with gadgets, sales guys, and all the other silly ideas. Back to basics!

I have a feeling this will fall on deaf ears because you already know so much about the plowing business, but this is how to do it.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

Oh ya...you also need to figure your business operating costs and your personal living expenses. This will tell you how much to charge. Every guy can do it for a different amount. Right now it sounds like plowing is a hobby or something for you. I don't see how you make money and I think you've made it clear that you aren't making much.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

I appreciate the advice. 

What you described is basically what I am doing. the problem was I got laid off with my job as a onsite repair tech for dell when they wanted to hire a guy in house. so i kinda got pushed into going full time before i was really ready. and it actually would have been ok if the weather had held up. but then the drought hit and the work i had kidna went down teh drain. i survived by pulling down trees and landscaping. btw, never deal with yp.com. its a pointless cost that will not gain you customers. companies use it to do sales. I got one landscape. 

I understand that i noone will sell the company like i do. but even at that, i can be excited about my business, but it does take more than excitement to sell. there is something about. my buddy that he can get the other person excited about buying the product as he is to sell it (the fact that he does 25 per labor hour probably helps).

oh, and as far as the truck, i tried to upgrade, dealership never got back to me. so im stuck with it until i build my income.

i'm getting into computer programming, getting close to finishing 2 games. hopefully thatl become my 2nd job. if i donnt start getting some cash soon i will have to get out and start putting in apps.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Bird do you have a website.?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

quigleysiding;1522713 said:


> Bird do you have a website.?


I built one some time ago but i havnt had the chance to make it better and get it posted. just got a virtual server last night so i want to get some work done on that as soon as i get this game finished.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

I think getting your name out there with some good advertising is just as important as sales. The sales part is just a numbers game. Getting good leads is the hardiest part. If you go on enough leads you will get work. Also I tend to do better if I look successful when I go out on sales. Where nice cloths shave, Maybe a breath mint. Also try not to low-ball just to get work. Most people know if your to low that you have to skimp somewhere to make up for it.:salute:


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

quigleysiding;1522747 said:


> I think getting your name out there with some good advertising is just as important as sales. The sales part is just a numbers game. Getting good leads is the hardiest part. If you go on enough leads you will get work. Also I tend to do better if I look successful when I go out on sales. Where nice cloths shave, Maybe a breath mint. Also try not to low-ball just to get work. Most people know if your to low that you have to skimp somewhere to make up for it.:salute:


Thats a hard thing to do for a small business. pretty much all of the advertisments iv done have paid off (accept for yp.com, dont EVER concider yp.com) but they have been so small its only a job or two.

iv gotten some work putting flyers on mailboxes (yes its legal if you dont put it inside). I'm hoping i can make enough this winter to actualy pay the post office to deliver flyers to entire neighborhoods. if i could get a grand to put into it i could blanket kalamazoo in a day that way.

what other marketing can a small company with limited cash flow do?


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Craigslist, Thumbtack , Angie's list, All Free ,Job signs , I find that dollar for dollar job signs are the best money spent. You get in an area and most of the neighbors see your work. I do roofing and siding . Most customers will let you leave a job on site for a couple of weeks. I tell them that I will give them $200.00 off the job if I can leave my sign there for two weeks, Most people go for it.


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

birddseedd;1522703 said:


> I appreciate the advice.
> 
> What you described is basically what I am doing. the problem was I got laid off with my job as a onsite repair tech for dell when they wanted to hire a guy in house. so i kinda got pushed into going full time before i was really ready. and it actually would have been ok if the weather had held up. but then the drought hit and the work i had kidna went down teh drain. i survived by pulling down trees and landscaping. btw, never deal with yp.com. its a pointless cost that will not gain you customers. companies use it to do sales. I got one landscape.
> 
> ...


See, your failing again. You need to establish follow up calls, they are one of the most important functions of a sales call. You want your business partners to remember you. The dealership is a business partner. Call them back and make sure that the paperwork was not just misfiled, or that Joe thought Bob called you back and they are waiting for your signature.

If they say no, sorry - thats ok. get used to it in this business. If you get 1 yes for 10 you are very lucky.

BTW, when you are giving in your bids and quotes - who do you present to. Do not just drop it off at the front desk, get in front of the decision maker or else you are just wasting paper.

A follow up call also gives you the chance to find out WHY, which is how you learn and grow to multiple pieces of equipment and employees.

It is a hard business to have sales people in. The owner has the passion, the drive and the numbers so that if some negotiating or wiggling is required, they can do it on the spot and firm up the deal.

Not all companies allow there sales people this power, and the sales person has to go back to the owner or manager of the landscape company to get permission - during this time, the company you are trying to land the contract with could have signed with another contractor and you lost your chance.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

You'll never make it if your chasing and bidding scared.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

so. it turns out the guy my wife babysits for has a MASTERS in business marketing.

so, ya... ill be talking with him


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

grandview;1522987 said:


> You'll never make it if your chasing and bidding scared.


so i put out a bid for some light landscaping. one location wanted landscaping, asked if i can keep it down to 400. just some washing and weed pulling. my bid was slightly less. than 400. so not bad.

the other one. just shy of 773 i think was the total. 9 ish yards of rock. some edging and cleanup a little trash.he tried to try to get me down to 600.

ill admit to having very competitive prices, but come on, i gotta at least make some money...


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

And that's what your doing,making *some* money.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

grandview;1523361 said:


> And that's what your doing,making *some* money.


I didnt go down on the price.....


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Because you were low to begin with. You will only increase sales by not taking jobs on that don't pay enough.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

wouldnt it be good to take this job now? it woudl only take a few hours and woudl make a few hundred bucks. it woudl be a few hundred that i can earn now when i dont have anythign else on the table, and use that few hudnred tward advertising to try to get some clients.

im also trying to sell them a year round service plan for all their maintenance needs.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Do what you want to do.


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## CashinH&P (Jan 14, 2012)

grandview;1523389 said:


> Do what you want to do.


he is going to anyway.

To the OP, every one is giving you good advice and you come back with a snide answer (in this and many other threads) I would sugest you listen to these guys, they know there stuff.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

CashinH&P;1523422 said:


> he is going to anyway.
> 
> To the OP, every one is giving you good advice and you come back with a snide answer (in this and many other threads) I would sugest you listen to these guys, they know there stuff.


If that is how my response came off then i sincerely apologize. im not the best when it comes to text only communication. i meant it as an honest question. there is money to be made now. no its not at a super premium price, but its still a heck of alot more than any job will pay me.

to me...... it seems smart to take the work and try to sell them more services, rather than sit at home.

again. i do not mean this to be a snide statement. never have. its hard for soemone with no name to charge premiums. what truck will you pay more for, a ford or chevy, or some no name jap brand you have never herd of? i have to start somewhere and build up my name and customer base before people will drop 80 bucks an hour on me jsut for pulling weeds.


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## CashinH&P (Jan 14, 2012)

birddseedd;1523443 said:


> If that is how my response came off then i sincerely apologize. im not the best when it comes to text only communication. i meant it as an honest question. there is money to be made now. no its not at a super premium price, but its still a heck of alot more than any job will pay me.
> 
> to me...... it seems smart to take the work and try to sell them more services, rather than sit at home.
> 
> again. i do not mean this to be a snide statement. never have. its hard for soemone with no name to charge premiums. what truck will you pay more for, a ford or chevy, or some no name jap brand you have never herd of? i have to start somewhere and build up my name and customer base before people will drop 80 bucks an hour on me jsut for pulling weeds.


Hey man I get it, Im 19 and I am trying to grow my company just like you, but when you have a resource, like this forum, where people are willing to give you advice and answer your questions take advantage of it. This site is full of people like us and others who have massive companys. Every one starts somewhere, just take the advice that is given to you.

Like my grandfather always says, you have to ears and one mouth, listen twice as much.


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## cecilmac (Oct 12, 2009)

Hence, anybody u pay 365 or more is considered a employe will also need to be added to your ins policy dosent matter if he is commission or salary..most ppl in nj area are salary w a pct of commission based on profit from the jobs. But i guess e w is diff.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

cecilmac;1533979 said:


> Hence, anybody u pay 365 or more is considered a employe will also need to be added to your ins policy dosent matter if he is commission or salary..most ppl in nj area are salary w a pct of commission based on profit from the jobs. But i guess e w is diff.


not sure what you mean. pay 365 a year, week? day? and why would hte price matter? if you hire a sub to come in and build you a new parking lot that will cost thousands within a couple days. how could that be considered an employee?

i am a bit worried about what im going to do with a couple guys i have im only making 7 dollars and hour on them. and hoping to be able to give some gas money. not seeing how i can really do much with such small margin


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

So, since there is no snow tell us how you have been out busting you a$$ drumming up future work? 

It will not get handed to you and things you do this week might take a while until they turn into work.

Plus, do you have a long term plan or forecast to attempt to achieve?

Again, you are the cheapest best salesman for your company.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

> So, since there is no snow tell us how you have been out busting you a$$ drumming up future work?


trying to finish an application so i can finish and get paid, also doing a landscape and cleanup, with soem clean ups this week.



> Plus, do you have a long term plan or forecast to attempt to achieve?


hoping to make enough this winter to repair my mower and have some to pay the post office to deliver flyers in the mail for me this spring. longer term is building the business (possibly working with a buddy that may need someone to take over his route) and getting into other markets of the full scope of property management



> Again, you are the cheapest best salesman for your company.


wife babysites a kid for a guy with a masters in marketing. will be talkign with him to try to learn some


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## ultimatelawns (Dec 18, 2011)

I would be careful. They are the first ones within your company to screw you over by using your material and equipment to do work for there own customers that they get along the way.


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## Billious (Sep 21, 2010)

Banksy;1522673 said:


> No sales guy is going to sell your business like you will. Even though he would be paid, he won't sell it with the same personal interest. You really need to get back to basics, bird. You seem to be putting the cart before the horse in many of your threads. You seem to think that spending money on everything but the basics will somehow majically grow your money.


THIS. To the OP, may I recommend you pick up a book called The E-Myth Revisited. If you're clever, you can download it online for free. This book explains how people who are good at a craft become entrepreneurs and ultimately suffer because they're better at their craft than the craft of running a business.

No insult implied, honest. I know people get snarky on these forums, but part of owning a business is selling the business to your customers. Large businesses can afford the overhead of a sales force. Small businesses simply cannot. The economics don't work out. If you're going to give a significant percentage of your profits to another person, either you're not going to be paying yourself, you're not going to be able to invest in equipment, or your pricing will be out of line with the market rate.

edit: just realized this was a resurrected thread. I wonder how the OP is doing?


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

birddseedd;1522314 said:


> That is the kind of questions i started the thread to get answers for.
> 
> In my area you get about 25 cuts a year. at 30 bucks thats 750 a year for cutting. lets say another 400 for plowing we are up to $1150 per year for basic services.
> 
> ...


Whose grass are you cutting for $30?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

i just talked with one of the big guy's around here. his minimum price is 35


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

birddseedd;1689929 said:


> i just talked with one of the big guy's around here. his minimum price is 35


And what is your minimum price? I'm just curious as to why you used $30 as the price in your calculation.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

25 min.
30 average


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

I won't stop a truck for less than $30.....

IMHO, and don't take offense to this, but I think that as far as getting more customers, upgrading/replacing/adding to your equipment to make yourself look more professional and be more reliable would go much further towards increasing your sales.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

im workin on it. piece by piece. this year i want to get the new trailer painted.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

I think there are tons of things that you could do to increase your sales that would be cheaper than giving 25% to a sales guy.... WHat kind of equipment do you have? What kind of marketing do you do? What services do you offer? Are you a member of your local chamber of commerce? Are you involved in or sponsor any local events?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

JimMarshall;1690012 said:


> I think there are tons of things that you could do to increase your sales that would be cheaper than giving 25% to a sales guy.... WHat kind of equipment do you have? What kind of marketing do you do? What services do you offer? Are you a member of your local chamber of commerce? Are you involved in or sponsor any local events?


62 Toro rider, 48 bobcat walk behind.

Not a member of the chamber of commerce. By buddy doesn't seem to get any work from it. Wanted to get in the holiday parade, will have to wait for next year

Flyers and Craig's list


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