# when $$ makes their jaw drop



## mpgall26 (Aug 19, 2011)

Interesting talk with property manager. We sent happy holidays emails to customers and one new condo manager had mentioned that "the check for next storm is waiting to be dated". We had billed a 0-2" Oct. storm plus sand/salt, Cacl, and shoveling for $525. Contract is @2" incriments 2" trigger and de-ice at our discretion. I have a feeling she isn't anticipating a bill for 2k ish when we get a a big storm. Has anyone felt this problem coming before?
Senior property manager should understand a contract but when I tried to push seasonal she had remarked that she has never heard of a thing, so maybe not so experienced.
Minimum per visit would be $300 with no de-ice, so a 10inch storm with 5 visits is $1500 plus sand /salt etc. so that bill is gonna be quite a bit different than our previous 2" oct storm. 
**2 page contract is crystal clear and bold print in every "per visit" area with a whole page of trigger and per visit explanations.


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

Most of the time when its dumping snow you won't make it every 2"over unless you have dedicated equipment to that site.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

erkoehler;1387353 said:


> Most of the time when its dumping snow you won't make it every 2"over unless you have dedicated equipment to that site.


Only why you get 5 plows in a 10 inch storm is to start at one end and finish then start again.Sell her a seasonal contract now. Tell her if you get x more snows it would of cost less if seasonal. Also explain with seasonal she can better budget .


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## mcwlandscaping (Sep 8, 2005)

Its not going to snow this winter up this way so I don't think you're going to have that problem :laughing: 

I do want to hear how this plays out if we do get any significant snow at some point though!


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## SnowPro11 (Nov 27, 2011)

mpgall26;1387343 said:


> Interesting talk with property manager. We sent happy holidays emails to customers and one new condo manager had mentioned that "the check for next storm is waiting to be dated". We had billed a 0-2" Oct. storm plus sand/salt, Cacl, and shoveling for $525. Contract is @2" incriments 2" trigger and de-ice at our discretion. I have a feeling she isn't anticipating a bill for 2k ish when we get a a big storm. Has anyone felt this problem coming before?
> Senior property manager should understand a contract but when I tried to push seasonal she had remarked that she has never heard of a thing, so maybe not so experienced.
> Minimum per visit would be $300 with no de-ice, so a 10inch storm with 5 visits is $1500 plus sand /salt etc. so that bill is gonna be quite a bit different than our previous 2" oct storm.
> **2 page contract is crystal clear and bold print in every "per visit" area with a whole page of trigger and per visit explanations.


Hopefully she was kidding around a little. If not she is going to have to read over her contract again and realize that pricing for the previous event is not a flate rate pricing. You could go seasonal with her but that may not be the best option for you. The bad thing about seasonal is someone always comes out on the bad end of the deal. If it is you than you're mad about it and if it is them they will want a credit for other work, next season, etc. 
If she questions the cost of the next storm I have asked people what they think it would have cost if someone would have slipped and injured them selves. Usually they can relate to that becuase all of us have slipped, fallen or atleast slid on ice at one time or another.
I hope it all works out for you.


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## mpgall26 (Aug 19, 2011)

I started my seasonal pitch with "grandview says" LOL....trust me I followed GV's advise and no go, and i'm sure the customer thinks she beat the seasonal gamble already. Lot of time left sweetheart. This lot is my home base and only 10k sq/ft, trust me I can plow the pavement off it if I want, just want to be fair and be treated fairly.
I think smart pool is no advanced warnings, its all in the paperwork and we talked in depth about options.


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## tonylillo (Sep 23, 2011)

For mostly residential in NJ I did $75 per hour one hour minimum for plowing and $25 per hour 1 hour minimum for snow blowing. Any time over the hour is rounded off to the next 1/4 hour. I also have a trigger of 3 inches.For the big storms of 8 inches or more I will be there minimum 2 times maybe more at my descretion. Did I lowball my self or did i lowball the other guys out there. I have 10 contracts already and counting, 3 more in the hopper waiting to be signed. We average about 8 to 10 storms a season on average with maybe 2 really big storms per season. That could all change of course depending on the weather. How do you guys handle the phone calls on when you are going to be there and why is it taking so long. On the big storms i am planning on going 10 to 20 hours straight to get all the contracts done, then pick up some quick smaller jobs on the side for $50 per push. Any feedback is always welcome. Thanks, Tony


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## ajman21 (Oct 30, 2009)

i have know idea what it runs in ur area but if that is enough for u to pay your bills and still have a decent profit then go for it. u the one that knows ur business.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

Wait...has she paid you for October? If not I'm not sure this conversation matters...I understand people getting behind but that's a long time. I'd have to re-think this customer. 

I already have a property manager talking about all the money he's "wasting" on plowing this year. I told him "I didn't sell you plowing, I sold you piece of mind."


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## mpgall26 (Aug 19, 2011)

NO NO She pain Oct 30 storm gladly, I felt guilty since I could see the pavement through the snow, but hey that what they want. Concern is when the bill is 4x Octobers.


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## mpgall26 (Aug 19, 2011)

And unfortunately NOBODY is wasting a nickle around here on plowing except me getting ready for it. I want 20 storms 3" and i know we're gonna complain about no snow until we get 2ft storms.


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## tjctransport (Nov 22, 2008)

that is why i like doing municipal work. none of that billing and bickering over what the amount owed should or should not be. 
straight up $100 per hour rate for pickups, no need for salters, shovels or snow blowers, and it is usually a 12 hour event unless it is a big storm.


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## tonylillo (Sep 23, 2011)

Did you have any exceptions to your plow insurance, my company told me that my policy did not cover me for municipal work, just commercial or residential.


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

tonylillo;1390993 said:


> Did you have any exceptions to your plow insurance, my company told me that my policy did not cover me for municipal work, just commercial or residential.


As an agent, I can tell you first hand that most insurance CO's will NOT allow you to, nor will they cover you for any type of municipal work. It doesn't matter whether it is a city, township, borough or state. The exposures to a claim are very high and most of the CO's will run with their tails between their legs if you even mention it.

With that being said, there are a _FEW_ CO's out there that will. The price tag for this coverage may vary depending on what state you live in. You really need to take the time and sit down to read your policy. In some cases, not only are public streets a problem, each CO may have specific risks that they will not cover. To give you an example, MMG (Maine Mutual Insurance CO) used to cover plowing almost everywhere but municipal situations. This year, they are changing what places are covered and not covered. In the last 2 years, they had a few large losses from guys plowing Walmarts. All of them were slip & fall cases.

Because of this, they still give snow removal coverages, *BUT*, if you plow any large commercial lots like Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot etc. you are getting cancelled or non-renewed if they know for a fact you are doing it.


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## woodchuck2 (Dec 4, 2010)

I think this Commercial versus Municipal argument comes down to the Insurance companies definition and not what the actual definition is. A Municipal property is one governed by a local or State Government and i am well aware of not being covered by my agent on these properties. I do not believe a Store parking lot or area falls under the Municipal definition, unless Walmart, Home Depot or Lowes is actually controlled by our Governments. IMO there is no difference in maintaining a large lot like this than a small parking lot for a mom/pop shop or even a housing development. I have gone over my Ins policy with my agent and she knows that i plow for several stores, a bank, a housing development and a propane facility that has a 30k gallon tank on site for filling trucks. I have bumped my Ins. up to $5mil liability to help cover these properties. Also it should be in ones contract that "Snow removal does not mean "bare pavement" and icy/slippery conditions may still exist after plowing. " just to help cover the contractor in a slip/trips/falls event. Just because the contractor does clean up a lot does not mean the lot is bare, dry and can be driven on, walked on or ran upon without some chance of an accident and the contractor should be held liable. This liability should fall upon the store itself. Otherwise the contractor can be held liable for a slippery condition any time of yr if the contract is stated and signed for that period of time and the slippery condition occurs in that time period. 

I am going to throw this out as an example: I go to Walmart at 8am on the 1st of June and there was a freak frost the night before letting a puddle of water freeze over night. So if i step out of my car onto this ice, slip and fall smacking my head on the asphalt then technically if the contractors contract is covered for a whole year then the contractor can be held liable. The low was clear, pavement in some areas are even dry, but a freezing precipitation event still occurred.


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## tjctransport (Nov 22, 2008)

tonylillo;1390993 said:


> Did you have any exceptions to your plow insurance, my company told me that my policy did not cover me for municipal work, just commercial or residential.


insurance requirements for plowing in our town are minimum of 1 million in general liability insurance on top of your personal vehicle insurance..


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## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

tjctransport;1391370 said:


> insurance requirements for plowing in our town are minimum of 1 million in general liability insurance on top of your personal vehicle insurance..


Believe he meant does YOUR insurance policy cover you doing municipal plowing? And also your personal vehicle insurance most likely won't cover you while you are making money plowin, for that you need commercial auto insurance!


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## tjctransport (Nov 22, 2008)

commercial automotive insurance with snow plow rider.
even with commercial insurance, you are not covered unless you have a plow rider on the policy


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

woodchuck2;1391067 said:


> I am going to throw this out as an example: I go to Walmart at 8am on the 1st of June and there was a freak frost the night before letting a puddle of water freeze over night. So if i step out of my car onto this ice, slip and fall smacking my head on the asphalt then technically if the contractors contract is covered for a whole year then the contractor can be held liable. The low was clear, pavement in some areas are even dry, but a freezing precipitation event still occurred.


Most contracts list the start and end date. So if they do fall in June. That would be the stores problem.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

mpgall26;1389550 said:


> NO NO She pain Oct 30 storm gladly, I felt guilty since I could see the pavement through the snow, but hey that what they want. Concern is when the bill is 4x Octobers.


Sounds like you are in for a world of crap from her if you get a big snow. Sounds like she already has the dollar amount of your next check filled in if all she needs to do is date the check.

Also, how did you see the pavement through 2" of snow?


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## mpgall26 (Aug 19, 2011)

Just a question regarding Woodchecks post, when a frost developes and there has been no documented storm, snowfall, precip, or icing with the National Weather Service or Climatologists such as WeatherWorks etc. then who is to say after the fact that it wasn't oil or something else that was causitive in the "fall". We aren't responsible for any person who is vertically challenged. I agree a claim may be made, yet I can file a claim or suit for anything and it amounts to nothing. But some p$%%* insurance company will settle for peanuts and jack our rates or not renew???


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## mpgall26 (Aug 19, 2011)

JD, The contract she wanted was 0-2" and she has been very specific that any documented snowfall be plowed. The reality is the contract contradicts itself by saying 2" trigger but has 0-2" amount pricing. I would think it may be few times that I end up plowing less that 2" but who knows, the customer is always right. Some of the lot was 2ish but really just a rediculous storm.


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