# Am I getting screwed!!!



## fforgione (Sep 23, 2010)

I joined this community as I have a feeling that my landlord has been taking advantage of his tenants but I cannot find out any information of the sought.

I am currently in a triple net lease and my CAM charges make up 1.75% of all CAM charges which are currently $350 per month. The expenses consist of once a month lawn mowing, annual asphalt maintenance, parking lot lighting, and SNOW REMOVAL. The CAM charges used to be around $75 but the landlord has claimed that the cost of snow removal exceeded his budget pool and had to increase the amount to where it is now.

Annual Pool @ $75/month = $52,000
Annual Pool @ $350/month = $240,000

My question is, Is $188,000 a justifiable yearly increase for the removal of snow based only on three additional snowfalls? The landlord is not responsible for sidewalk cleanup and the parking lot is approx. 100k-120k sq/ft.

If it is not justifiable, what is the range from low to high of what is justifiable. I appreciate any help in getting to the bottom of this.

Fred Forgione


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Do you know what type of agreement the snow removal company had with the landlord?

Per push or seasonal?

It's no secret that New Jersey was pounded more than usual last year....however if there was a seasonal agreement in place the landlord would have paid the same amount regardless how many more times it was plowed.

Based on your 120,000 sq ft (2.75 acres) measurement......there's absolutely no way an increase of $188,000.00 is even conceivable.....even with loading and hauling away snow.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

fforgione;1076442 said:


> If it is not justifiable, what is the range from low to high of what is justifiable. I appreciate any help in getting to the bottom of this.
> 
> Fred Forgione


A contractor from your area will need to chime in on this, as rates vary greatly from region to region.


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## fforgione (Sep 23, 2010)

I do not know what type of contract is in place but I will definitely find out. Per push is charged per snowfall and seasonal is a flat one time amount?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Per push is typically per visit, or each time they push/plow the site.

Seasonal is plowing service for the entire winter no matter how many times it is plowed.

Per snowfall...or per event is a different animal.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

Assume that lot can be plowed for about $300 to $350 assuming few obsticles and relatively normal shape. Salt a little less per time. Do the math. You could also ballpark mowing at $50 per hour assuming they are using approximately 60" mowers. Now if they are actually "removing" the snow from the property, that is going to add significantly more. Keep in mind I am in Michigan and prices vary.


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## fforgione (Sep 23, 2010)

Lol half the parking lot doesn't even get used so all the snow is just piled on the far side of the lot.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

Can i have your landlords phone number? I'd like to be his new 'lawn and snow guy'.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Ask to see the contract, if you are paying for it, you should have a right to. Something doesn't add up at all...


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

For 240 grand, Ill plow your center and commute from AZ.


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

Wow! Even if you are being charged $1000 per time to plow that lot (which is ridiculously high for 2.75 acres) you would need to be serviced 188 times in order to get to the amount of the increase.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

I have had a tenant get a lawyer to request to have copies of the bills forwarded.
Just ask for the copies then do your own math.

Before I owed a property I was in a mall and found a few things...

when you are triple net you also pay for things like repairs.
all the big malls do it... they call for a price on a new roof, get a few quotes then call them back and say... how much to do it with no warranty and you will get all the repairs.?
they drop the price huge. owner pays for capital costs and improvements, but tenants pay for repairs.

I battled with this place I was in for a long time to replace the sliding auto doors as we were always calling in a repair guy and the billls were huge... they finally replaced them and gave everyone a share of the bill. and I then argued that if indeed they can pass on the bill then there would have to be a life expectancy of the doors (12) years ? therefore it would have to be passed on to the tenants for the next 12 years not just this 1 year but first they woul dhave to show how it was not a capital improvement? needless to say we didnt pay for the doors, but im sure we paid for all snow plowing at his personal house and his other properties. 

it might not be your snow it might be that the taxes too a huge hike and he is catching up on them therefore passing them on to you... not fair but he is cooking those books somehow.

I had a huge jump in my plaza when two things happened... I rented to a resturant and the insurance went up, I had an appraisal (went up) and the tax did a reassesment of the value
plus taxes went up.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

last but not least if you figure it out and they owe you money. you want it paid back asap, and if you have been over paying for a LONG time you want interest on the money. 

you would win that in a small claims court hands down no questions asked.

courts do not like when the little guy gets taken advantage off.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Ok, let's think about this. $240,000 is $20,000 a month. Out of that is lighting, asphalt maint, lawn care and snow maint. There must be approx 685 units ($240,000 / $350 per). So lighting is estimated at $5,000 (?)/mo. ; leaving $15,000. Asphalt maint est at $1000/mo; leaving $14,000. Let's say last year's snow removal cost was half again the normal meaning he ran a deficit of approx $2000; leaving $12,000. Who on here is anxious to provide grounds maint and snow removal on a 685 unit complex for $12,000/yr.

Or do you think my numbers are way off?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mick;1076623 said:


> There must be approx 685 units ($240,000 / $350 per).
> Or do you think my numbers are way off?


Hard to imagine a 2.75 acre property accomodating 685 units.



fforgione;1076442 said:


> My question is, Is $188,000 a justifiable yearly increase for the removal of snow based only on three additional snowfalls? The landlord is not responsible for sidewalk cleanup and the parking lot is approx. 100k-120k sq/ft.


I was only rolling with this from the op....this does not compute.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I agree with both of your points, but I was just using the figures he gave us and making some assumptions for the rest.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

That's because you're a helpful member. 

:salute:


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

There are 100 units... 350 x 12 x100 equals $240000


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Pristine PM ltd;1076853 said:


> There are 100 units... 350 x 12 x100 equals $240000




I will go back to 6th grade.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

haha, it took me awhile, don't worry!


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Mick;1076623 said:


> Who on here is anxious to provide grounds maint and snow removal on a 685 unit complex for $12,000/yr.


I am! Thats 12k per month, not per year. Even 144k is many times more than what that place should cost.



TCLA;1076827 said:


> Hard to imagine a 2.75 acre property accomodating 685 units.


Leave it to the Germans!


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## 5280TOM (Sep 27, 2010)

If last year's snowmaggeddon in your area was also tied to an "hourly" rate (OUCH) then your landlord could be doing some CYA just in case the NEast gets hammered again. For all you know he exausted all of his reserves to cover the events last year and isnt goingto pull his kid out of Harvard to pay your snow bill...just a thought I don't know him really I don't!!


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

hoskm01;1076890 said:


> I am! Thats 12k per month, not per year. Even 144k is many times more than what that place should cost.
> 
> Leave it to the Germans!


:redbouncepurplebou:bluebounc:


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

This just gets more and more confusing. I ran the numbers again:

$240,000 / 12 = $20,000 / $350 (per unit) = 57.14 units (round to 57 units)

$52,000 / 12 = $4,333.33/ $75 (per unit) = 57.777 units (round to 57 units)

There are now 57 units in this complex.

57 x $75 x 12mos = $51,300 (close enough to $52,000)
57 x $350 x 12mos = $239,400 (again, close enough to $240,000)


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

whoops, now who needs to go back to grade 6.


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

hes being overcharged either way. your landlord needs to show proof that these expenses are being paid out if he is expecting to receive these kind of numbers or expecting to keep tenants. I find it hard to believe the court will allow this kind of increase if he doesn't have proof of these expenses being paid. good luck


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## bgingras (Jan 16, 2004)

sounds like the landlord is also the snow guy in need of some new trucks...I'll move to NJ just to clear a lot for those numbers!


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