# to plow or not to plow



## BarcodeRon (Dec 9, 2016)

I'm 22 years old with about $10k saved up. In my neighbor hood there are 3 streets with homes worth close to a mil. My buddy's uncle used to do them and said he charged $80 $100 per push. Its a small neighborhood so I know most of the community including the owner of 2 of the streets and I'm pretty sure most of them would pay me to plow their driveway early in the morning. However most of their driveways are brick / cobblestone and I read that you can damage those with plows. I also need a truck for a few business's I would like to start in the near future.

So I'm wondering what you guys think? Should I buy an old beater and plow or should I try and get a new truck and use it to plow and for my business's or not plow at all?

Also it should be noted I live in Atlantic Canada. We had a light winter last year with about 150" of snow and they are saying this one could be bad.

I have found a few trucks that look promising if you could give me your input it would be appreciated!

Thanks!

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/...ck/1222864455?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/...ck/1222241752?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

First I'll start by saying I bought a 2004 chevy and love it so far (had it for a few months now). Now that that's out of the way let's talk business.

I'm young, and started my business young. Part of me wishes I hadn't, and would have worked with people a little longer to learn more of the business side of things. With that said, you sound like you have friends who can help you as you go. Don't be afraid to ask questions. LISTEN to what they have to say. 

As far as your money saved, $10k doesn't go far, especially if you have to buy everything to get going. Don't forget, you need insurance, business licenses, an attorney to write your contracts, have to pay your salary, upfront costs associated with the business, and money for repairs. I would advise not to get a beater truck, you need something that is more reliable. Money will go quick! Be start with how you spend it.

Tell us a little about yourself. Do you work full time, do you go to school, live at home, have you ever done snow removal before, what kind of business sense do you have, have you done your homework on what the laws are in your area and what insurance you need, that kind of stuff. Snow removal for me is the most PITA work I've ever done, but for whatever reason I love. You will get no sleep, work longer than you ever have, get to make no plans without mother nature ruining them, live on the weather sites, apps, and news stations, be stressed beyond belief because something broke and you need it NOW, plan everything according to a storm that doesn't come, miss out on holidays, and you'll get addicted to this site! That list could go on and on. This business is not for everyone, but if it's something you want to do, just do your homework and go for it.


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## TMLGC (Sep 22, 2013)

Where I am you don't need any business licenses and no need to pay an attorney to get involved with basic residential service. 

Trucks seem decent for the price although not familiar with the translation to USD and miles vs km.

Good point about the hard scaped driveways if they have been plowed in the past then prob not an issue, but discuss it with HO.

Biggest thing to worry about if you want to get serious about this is a back up truck and plow, a relative or someone you know that you can get ahold of another rig during a storm should you have an issue. Get to know your plow dealer and read about servicing and fixing whatever plow you buy.

My guess is these people may of found someone already this late in the season although for residential many people will call when the first real storm is forecasted. 

If you are driving another vehicle now possibly get rid of that to help with a truck purchase. 

Starting out with a few is a good way to get your feet wet. With those trucks listed you can probably sell them without much if any loss if it's not for you. 

Given your age and just starting out in the business you are going to pay much more for insurance in the US anyway.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

At 22 with 10k in the bank.If you earned it , just keep doing what You are doing?

And yes, you need a business license ,
You can easely file for a LLC or the like on line yourself.

A business is a business reguardless of the scope of the work.


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## BarcodeRon (Dec 9, 2016)

I am going to continue what I'm doing. I just have some free time during the winter as well as a need for a truck so I'm just trying to see if it would be worth it, but like others have said its a PITA. There's just so many factors to analyze.

I did some research and couldn't find anything that said I needed a permit for residential plowing.

provided I get a plow whats the best way of dealing with flag down customers or just people who randomly call me, should I just make them sign a waiver or is that not needed?

I have some experience doing snow removal for a rental property I manage however it was on an ATV.

Also since there's a good chance we can get well over 100" of snow and ice would it be better to invest more into a v blade?

Thanks


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

No, you DON'T need a business license in all areas. I don't. So, you're 22 and going to start several businesses??? I'll leave that alone for now. Tell me, what will happen with your customers when your truck or plow break down?


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## BarcodeRon (Dec 9, 2016)

"going to start" keyword. Right now I'm focusing on whether or not I should get a plow


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

But you didn't answer, what happens when your truck or plow break down and you can't service your customers? Are you going to have contracts with them? If you can't service them due to a mechanical failure who is going to take care of them? Will they sue you for breach of contract?


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Also, it's already late in the season to be trying to get customers. What makes you think that those people in those million dollar houses haven't already secured somebody to do their driveways? I'll bet you a dime to a dollar most of them already have. You're too late in the season to even worry about this.


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## BarcodeRon (Dec 9, 2016)

I think its too late in the season to get contracts. Was probably just gonna plow for cash to build up a small client base + word of mouth around here is one of the best ways to market a business like this. I was looking at google and most of the websites for similar work around here are pretty bad and are not properly optimized for SEO. I taught myself how to code and have done some web development work before. I think by next year I can get my website on the first page of google even though like I said word of mouth is the best way to get your name out around here. I'm also going to use the truck year round for work. I just believe I can make some serious coin just in my neighborhood whenever we get some decent snowfall. Tons of rich people with long drives who are too old to clear them.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

So, you need to buy a truck, and a plow, right? I don't know what kind of truck you plan on buying, new or used. But a new plow will cost you 6-8K new. Do you think you'll make enough this year to cover the cost of both? I seriously doubt it. But you'll be set up for next year. I can't tell you what to do, but if it were me I wouldn't throw away 10K when you'll probably want to be a firefighter or pilot next year.


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## BarcodeRon (Dec 9, 2016)

Maybe I should just get a firetruck and put a plow on it, that way I'm ready for next year!


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Very good response!


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

I lol'ed at that one. 

My dad started our company when I was 14, I'm 26 now and sence then he has handed all operations of the company to me and my brother who is 21. 
My advice to you is unless you are planning on going into this industry for a living don't waist your time. 
Everyone has to start somewhere but know a couple hundred dollars a storm doesn't go far,
At least for us it doesn't. A lot of people will throw shade at you but for trying but just be smart and don't sell your services short (low ball) everyone hates that. 

As far as your truck question. I agree with the statements about a reliable truck. That's the main reason why my brother and I both have 2016 Chevy 2500s with 100k warrantys. My employee drives our 2002 regular cab but that truck only has 50k on the clock. Plowing is extremely hard on your truck and a beater won't last long. Maybe look into a half ton or smaller truck. That comes with having to buy a cheaper plow as well.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Don't forget you said you live in Canada. As far as I know you have to pay for a permit to walk your dog. I'm being sarcastic obviously, but Canada as a whole regulates business far more than in the the US. I could be wrong but I would bet you have to get a license to legally collect money in whatever municipality you live in so that you can pay the associated taxes you have to collect from your service. You will need commercial auto insurance, and general liability insurance as a minimum to do residential drives. If you want to do any type of automatic plowing for customers, as opposed to just going and doing it if the customer requests, you had better have a contract. Otherwise you will have no legal recourse to compel a client to pay you. Not to mention that a contract covers damage and liability waivers. 

I would strongly suggest you forget the snow for this year. It's way too late. I don't have the truck yet. That will take time to get. You don't have a plow yet, that will take time to get. Once you get the plow mounted then you find out what other kind of mods you will have to do before being able to plow, like do you need a leveling kit so that the A frame sits level allowing your plow to operate correctly, electrical system upgrades, lighting etc. all this takes time. So by the time you were set up and ready to roll it's probably gonna be another month. 

Perhaps you should try finding someone in your area that you can operate their equipment. This way you learn how to plow with someone else's equipment and not be out the money you would have spent if you decide that you don't like sitting in a truck to plow for 30 hours straight during a blizzard. Also, will your current job allow you to be gone from work for however long a storm lasts? Or you get back to back systems where snow accumulates for 5 days in a row, will they let you be gone that long?


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## MBT (Nov 30, 2016)

BarcodeRon said:


> I was looking at google and most of the websites for similar work around here are pretty bad and are not properly optimized for SEO. I taught myself how to code and have done some web development work before.


I think you might be missing out on a real opportunity....why not call the plow companies with "bad" websites, Improve one or two for free, and start a business with the tools and knowledge that you already have, sell the ability to make their websites better for free and then use the before and after shots to SELL improved websites to other companies in your area,the number one rule of business is "find a need and fill it". Look, if you're sitting on 10K, have a computer, and the know how to fix up websites, I think you might find that you will make more money this year doing what is in front of you. no license, little to no expenses, no plowing headaches, and time to make money, Plowing can happen later, get your Website up, if people call you collect their info and save it, but let them know you have no more openings for the year, save their contact info, and hit them up next year, after you really ready to take this on. You're 22, no rush man.


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## jonc41 (Nov 28, 2016)

You need a business license for anything you do in Canada, and insurance is a must. Mind you, you can be a fly by night guy and just work for cash and hide everything but what happens when you back into a customers car in their driveway or the garage door? And a spare truck or a reliable friend or relative you can send in your place is a must have. Like said above, you need to think about when you can't service your clients and fulfill your contract (written or verbal) that can kill your word of mouth business pretty quick. I'm just a bit older than you and live in Canada also, started up last year with a couple driveways, I now have 11 driveways and 1 parking lot this year, and I still work full time while trying to grow my business enough to go at it full time. Don't rush things, but you can put a plow on a truck and look for people shovelling their driveways, or 2 years ago when I first bought my plow I went around doing family members driveways and had a few other near by flag me down to do theirs as well. This will help you get contracts for the rest of this year and next year. That worked for me 2 years ago. Let me know if there's anything else I can help with.


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## BarcodeRon (Dec 9, 2016)

jonc41 said:


> You need a business license for anything you do in Canada, and insurance is a must. Mind you, you can be a fly by night guy and just work for cash and hide everything but what happens when you back into a customers car in their driveway or the garage door? And a spare truck or a reliable friend or relative you can send in your place is a must have. Like said above, you need to think about when you can't service your clients and fulfill your contract (written or verbal) that can kill your word of mouth business pretty quick. I'm just a bit older than you and live in Canada also, started up last year with a couple driveways, I now have 11 driveways and 1 parking lot this year, and I still work full time while trying to grow my business enough to go at it full time. Don't rush things, but you can put a plow on a truck and look for people shovelling their driveways, or 2 years ago when I first bought my plow I went around doing family members driveways and had a few other near by flag me down to do theirs as well. This will help you get contracts for the rest of this year and next year. That worked for me 2 years ago. Let me know if there's anything else I can help with.


Yea this what I was thinking. I need a truck anyway the question is do I invest in a plow to slowly build up some clients.


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## jonc41 (Nov 28, 2016)

Lots of decent plows on kijiji... lots of junk too but you may find a good deal on a used set up that would cost a lot less to get started in the business


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

First off the Firetruck comment... classic... that was an excellent response!

That comment instantly earned my respect and that is why I will post. I can give you a touch of incite from my world and you can take it for what you will.

If you have no experience what so ever in the snow and ice industry, it can be a real b*tch. It takes a rare breed to do this type of work as it will CONTROL your life in the winter. You will miss a lot of personal events in your life that will make a lot of people not very happy with you. I missed a ton of 1st's that my wife understood, but did not like. Nothing worse then missing Christmas morning... 2 years in a row... 

Please don't get me wrong, I loved pushing snow, but it just seemed like every time you had something planned, snow was in the forecast and it just made it hard to enjoy an evening as you know that you should be sleeping as you might be out for the next few days. Hell, I can remember a couple years before my wife and I were even married, plowing the 2 days leading up to valentines day. Called her when we were done doing rally routes and wished her a happy valentines day and told her I was headed home to sleep, felt like ****. She started crying and made me feel bad. Turned around, took her out to dinner, threw it all back up in the parking lot and went threw a ditch on the way home... good times.

I can say that I appreciate your attitude at 22. Most kids now a days at 22 are IMO freeloaders. When I was 22 I had a house, worked 2 regular jobs and pushed snow to afford life... still found myself many times at the short end of a mortgage check, but refused to ask for help, just put my head down, worked more or sold something and made it threw.

Now as for 10K... that is not enough capital to enter this industry IMO. As said above, after the truck, there is the plow, the insurance, fuel, repairs, all that stuff just eats away.

Now after all that is said, if you want to go for it, go for it. Who am I to stop you, I just want to give you a quick heads up to what this industry is really like... and that is IF you get paid every time. 

What I would recommend if you want to make a go at the snow and ice industry is to try working for someone first. You will have no skin in the game but your own time and fuel and if you break down, they have the resources to cover their accounts. If you do infact like it, gain experence from working for them and it will make you alot better when you go on your own.


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## Dirtebiker (Nov 10, 2016)

Go for it Barcode!
Find a used truck that already has a plow. Get those few local driveways and maybe subcontract with a contractor. 
Next year, who knows? 
If you don't like it, sell the rig and move on. You really have nothing to lose except some cash and some time. You're young and can make it up.
You sound like a smart go getter! Unlike many your age.
Good luck young man!


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

I did not see anyone mention to him to watch out !!!

Brick drives are not easy and you should know you can destroy them fast.

If you end up with a plow install a soft cutting edge.


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## OneManWithAPlow (Sep 4, 2016)

Im going to give a little insight from somebody who is/was in what seems like a very similar situation.

24 y/o in an area with much less annual snowfall, about 7k saved up, seemingly similar ambition.

First off, it cost more than double what I was expecting. Considering everything from getting the trucks snow ready, buying plow equipment be it plows snowblowers shovels etc. don't forget back up equipment. Remember the importance of customer loyalty. You work for them. The cost of insurance, with 0 experience is high, cost of advertising cost of regular business operating costs. business cards. Signs. Truck emblems. Logos. website design. written contract. even business supplies. all of it costs more money than youd ever expect, before you even really get any considerable cash flow.

As far as a vehicle goes, id get something that you know (if applicable). if not, you will learn. stuff breaks, and no matter how good something lkooks, nothing is perfect. My truck needed only about $3-500 in maintenance when I bought it, but to get it perfect for a 2002 its been well over $2000 for longevity. I wouldn't go older beater unless youre buying 2-3, because when something breaks it could just be that much more difficult to fix on an older vehicle. Daamges will kill you so be careful. especially around million dollar homes. My brother in law had one of his guys go through a garage hitting a support beam and cost him 26K out of pocket to keep his insurance down. Im sorry this isn't too well written, but you almost have to go all in, there isn't much room for having one foot in if you don't already have the equipment or disposable income.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Good point


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