# Bidding 2.5m sq ft Mall , all equipment by hour only?



## Ramairfreak98ss

This 30 page contract reeks already, but maybe some of you have had the experience bidding this way for this type of contract with a similar retail site in the past.

Last year, major outfit NSP had the site for one year only, they tanked.. never had much equipment on site, certainly nothing like 5 wheel loaders they "require".

I believe at any given time they had a salt truck w/ plow " a rental".
two basic backhoes, neither had boxes for them.
5-6 16' basic protech old school pushers on site

Site looked terrible during the few events we had last year, nothing spectacular, really poor total in NJ, wasn't cold ever and only about 9" snow total all season.

They of course want to be indemnified, TONS of insurance requirements, don't list they actual payment terms of time between invoice date and date contractor will receive each payment.

They maintain that they NEED
1. Full size skid steer with 8-10' box
2. Pickup with 8-10' snow plow
3. Backhoe for loading salt, must stay on site 100% of the time
4. Backhoe with 12' pusher
5. THREE 3yd+ front end wheel loader with 14' box "FOUR loaders must stay on site"
6. TWO 3yd+ front end wheel loader with 16' box, "they state all 5 can have 14-16", but spec req. list 18 and 20' pushers prices too
7. Tri axle dump truck -not required but hauling can be intensive i assume if they ever had a 2' blizzard or worse. Plenty of places to pile it though.
8. Salt truck with plow - salt is paid per ton though.

They dictate when to start each and every piece of equipment and when to take it "off the clock". My feeling is that they could easily tell you all season long in 2-8" snow storms, use ONE loader, the skid and ONE truck today, if it picks up and snows harder, come back and maybe we'll send out another loader on the clock... my gut feeling.

After Jan 1st, there is a reduction in lot space that they then do NOT plow after that date, of about 600k sq ft in various areas, about 50-100k each, far away from the mall.

That leads to my questions, about how much equipment you would estimate you really would need on a site like this. Most of it is pretty wide open, they want it plowed fully during closed overnight hours, and really only lanes maintained and some parking during the day unless the mall fully closes down due to big bad storm. 

We don't own 5 wheel loaders, each would run between $17-27k depending on if its a 2.75yard -4 yard capacity to either RENT for 4 months or lease for a year term, the lease costs more per year, but you have the machine 12 months, not 4. We don't need it for anything other than snow though so its no use for the extra time.

We have a 12' box for backhoe, plenty of skid boxes for those, and a 14 and 16' box for loaders. We have one loader, so we'd need 3-4 more. I only know two guys who own "old" loaders i could work out some cheaper/low rate for leaving them at the site all season, but am not familiar with their maintenance, and they likely would give us problems starting, running, many the lights dont work, no ac, some have heat, windows fog up etc. I don't want to try to bid cheap and get into unsafe situations with operators used to running 2010-2016 equipment. 

If it wasn't for their "requirements" we would have enough equipment to handle this site.

I would put 
TWO F550s there with 9-11' snow plows and both with 4-4.5 yard salt spreaders
ONE F350 dually with 9' plow and 2.5 yard spreader if needed
THREE 2 speed JD wheeled skid steers with 10' boxes
310 JD backhoe 12' box
524k JD loader with 16' box to do the bulk of the open lot work
ONE 4720 JD loader/10' box ag compact tractor as backup, for loading salt in trucks, doubles as a skid basically.

No one lot is bigger than about 400k sq ft, i think having TWO loaders there would be over kill unless all the small equip. wasn't available. Its not slack off them, they're ONLY paying hourly so to them, bring in ten just to be "safe" right? 

I have no idea what my hourly rate would have to be for each piece of equipment being i'd have to absorb a ton of liability, insurance cost, lease, rentals, our own equipment use, and a supervisor onsite during any operations who is NOT paid...

Been hounding them for months and finally get the RFP and just shaking my head reading it over....


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## framer1901

I wouldn't even consider it unless there was a retainer and all equipment of my own choice and usage billed hourly. Hourly billing can be backed out of the retainer up to x%. Send a nice little formal letter back with your requirements and go eat, don't wait for the phone to ring.

You all that work in areas with such small snowfalls for yearly amounts but potential for huge blizzards - you can have that. ****, we had an extremely short year last year that put a small crimp in the wallet.....


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## Randall Ave

I have no idea what is involved in something that large. But you would need a retainer, and to have the customer dictate how you handle every event per equipment used. I would walk.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Yeah i think these contracts are getting worse, even direct from the customers in the last few seasons. They got blasted by the 13/14 season shock and now finding very legal/creative ways to limit costs and passing on more liability to the contractor. If my loader rate for a normal client was $300/hr with box, all else factored in here, and overhead for potential loss for low snow year, i'd have to bid like $600/hr. I'd never gain the account. 

and yeah Framer1901, we potentially could see 5" or 75" in NJ, contractually we'd have to clear it all by 9am, so we could need 5 wheel loaders, and MORE than they require on site to clear it in that time frame, you try to find a happy median though between equipment and client needs. Its a LOT of equipment for a potentially very small income if it doesn't snow. Even when it does, their dictation of how much and how often equipment rolls scares me the most, if thats the case, how can you bill hourly? that #5 loader may NEVER move, and i'd eat $15-30k for one season alone on it, that would never be made up by using even 4 of the 5 other loaders hourly. 

I'd probably only bid per season, per storm, per inch or per accumulation here, plus hourly after storm for move/stacking/loading/hauling. To do an hourly, then ONLY i have to or manager on site "our guys" call the shots on when to roll and when they're done.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

I tightened my measurements on google myself too, its 3.3m sq ft not 2.5m. And after Jan 1st, approximately 270k of lot areas come off, but honestly it doesn't speed up the job, you just plow around those zones. 

The largest lot is not less than 400k sq, but no more than 600ft long from mall to roadway and no bigger than 275-300k sq. One loader with 16' box could skip from one lot to the next easily and jam out a lot of productivity at night when no one is around. 

ALthough this is all on them because it pays hourly, the piles are not plowed and left at the end of the rows, they want all the piles stacked along the curbs to the left and right of these lots.. which puts a wrinkle in things, because no machines with push boxes loaded to the gills with snow push sideways very easily if at all.. skid/backhoe/tractor or front end loader. you'd need either 2nd machine taking each pile and pushing sideways after you let each one off at the far end. 

I wish i was able to see someone who knew what they were doing in previous years perform at this site, it really gives you the best insight on actual operations that take place in a good storm.


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## BUFF

Before you open yourself up to get hosed by another NSP and have Dean Wormer shut down another of your threads can I suggest to get an account set up with Dunn & Bradstreet http://www.dnb.com/ to get a financial and business practice overview. I use them for companies before I work for them and haven't any issues with payment. Contracts as we all know can be very one sided and this is why we have attorneys.


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## Randall Ave

If it was me, I would write my own contract. Stating how you will perform said service, with equipment you think is needed, etc. If they don't sign, walk away.


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## Mark Oomkes

Retainer and no one tells me how much of what equipment is used and when. 

Their job is either being an NSP or running the mall, my job is snow and ice management. 

Someone wants to tell me when I can have 5 loaders or 1 loader but my name is on the line, they can whistle Dixie.


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## FredG

Sounds like a hornets nest right out of the gate.


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## John_DeereGreen

FredG said:


> Sounds like a hornets nest right out of the gate.


And a ****show.

Man you already know the answer to this. Why even bring it up? Just to have something to ***** about?


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## John_DeereGreen

I'd like to see a screenshot of this property. 

1 loader 1 backhoe and 3 skids on 75 acres?


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## Mark Oomkes

John_DeereGreen said:


> I'd like to see a screenshot of this property.
> 
> 1 loader 1 backhoe and 3 skids on 75 acres?


I could answer this, but it would result in a nastygram, deletion and locking of the thread. Most likely.


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## John_DeereGreen

Mark Oomkes said:


> I could answer this, but it would result in a nastygram, deletion and locking of the thread. Most likely.


Well me too but I'm trying to be reasonable and diplomatic.


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## FredG

Some like to play in the rain, So deal with the mud at don't cry about it.


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## thelettuceman

Randall Ave said:


> I have no idea what is involved in something that large. But you would need a retainer, and to have the customer dictate how you handle every event per equipment used. I would walk.


Randall: I disagree. I would not walk ... I would run as fast as I can !!!


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## JMHConstruction




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## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> View attachment 172735


Some are creatures of habit, Lol


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## Maclawnco

Why would you be alright dedicating equipment for a per inch contract but not hourly as you say?


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## John_DeereGreen

FredG said:


> Some are creatures of habit, Lol


Mama always said stupid is as stupid does...


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## Randall Ave

John_DeereGreen said:


> Mama always said stupid is as stupid does...


My wife says that every Friday when she goes out the door with my paycheck in her hand.


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## Mike_PS

ok guys, we can surely give opinions, facts, etc. without hurling insults 

please and thank you


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## FredG

Randall Ave said:


> My wife says that every Friday when she goes out the door with my paycheck in her hand.


Well at least the majority goes to the bank, I haven't heard you call broke ever..lol


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## Ramairfreak98ss

John_DeereGreen said:


> I'd like to see a screenshot of this property.
> 
> 1 loader 1 backhoe and 3 skids on 75 acres?


You missed a few... but yes, although i realize some of you around the USA use 19 front end loaders for one Target or Home depot store and feel that's not enough equipment... Unless we had a storm producing in excess of 16" at a fast rate or more, the one loader would be fine. Its not old, so i'm not worried about a break down leaving me stranded, however i would just lease a 2nd machine with the threat of anything over 12". Their request of 5 is just absurd. I have priced this out as an alternative for them, just to RENT them all the equipment and then supply operators only. I do not think they would consider even the price for all the equipment "required" even for the rental, so why would we deal with them to handle the insurance liability, overhead and weather unpredictability for less?

I would put
TWO F550s there with 9-11' snow plows and both with 4-4.5 yard salt spreaders
ONE F350 dually with 9' plow and 2.5 yard spreader if needed
THREE 2 speed JD wheeled skid steers with 10' boxes
310 JD backhoe 12' box
524k JD loader with 16' box to do the bulk of the open lot work
ONE 4720 JD loader/10' box ag compact tractor as backup, for loading salt in trucks, doubles as a skid basically.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

The Quakerbridge mall address is 3521 Us Hwy 1, Princeton, NJ 08540
overhead photo and photos from last season  They used ONE backhoe to load salt, the other hooked to a 12' box, ONE salt truck that they used for plowing too rented... there was never a loader, skid steer or anything else on the site. Although we had no storm exceed 5-6" , they would not have had enough equipment to handle 12-24" anyway.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Maclawnco said:


> Why would you be alright dedicating equipment for a per inch contract but not hourly as you say?


I'd rather not, however much of our previous contracts were always per inch, i'd still accept a lot of risk by nature but not nearly as much as them dictating hourly work "when we can start/finish" etc. Honestly, i'd rather if anything, rent them the equipment, and provide operators whenever they want them with a 6hr minimum per piece of equipment.

One line item is "backhoe for loading salt", which is pointless because what would you bill them for? 20 minutes in that one machine? then where does that operator go? into the next machine and start its time clock? or sit the guy in it full storm and wait till the truck needs reloading? waste of time but either i get burned or we overbill for the machine?


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Keep in mind, by Jan 1st, a good chunk of this is just "not serviced" per their request. It is only about 2x the size of a much more heavily traveled site we handled for the last three years that had a 125k sq ft parking garage deck 7 stories up and no point of it was not used for parking, they'd fill the lot every day. The mall on the other hand, especially during any major event, would likely not use 1/4th of total spaces. The machines could clear the first 25% around the building and literally spend all day long moving the rest to the far ends and into piles in designated areas they requested with no impediment on parking and cars in/out of the lot.

Their specs suggest to be FINISHED by 9am, however knowing how this site was done always in the past, and how most large sites are never 100% by the end, there is no need for 100% of it to be finished at any given time since its never fully utilized.

Understand my calculations in the equipment demands.

Storm hits midnight, if you stay plowing entire storm, and ends at 7am, you could probably finish entire site around the 9am request with 5 loaders, i still think they'd sit idle a lot.

same time frame but 3 loaders, maybe they finish at 11am-noon, but by 9am they have at least the 50% cleared from the building on out and are just stacking after that anyway.

Not naming names here, but the company that did this account last year, had an account in my backyard too, 8 industrial buildings.... Millions of Sq ft.. probably 15m+. They sat 12 sixteen ft pushers out there, but not ONE machine. The morning the storm hits that supposed to be 2" and turns into 5-6", they're literally trucking in old john deere logger machines "the kind with the big hook on the back", and attaching the fronts to these pushers.. they move 2mph at most. The same account told me 3 years ago, that they REQUIRE 4 wheel loaders on the ONE BJs distribution plant alone that was 2m sq ft, which half is always covered by tractor trailers.... One machine with a 16' box would have kept up no problem, however yes, they do need FOUR of these logger skidder machines with how slow they move!

In total they used 7 logger/skidders, 3 loaders, 3 backhoes and a truck to do the bulk of 15m+ sq ft and roads. A pair of JD 624k/Cat 930 loaders would run circles around the 7 logger machines, i watched them creep along like they were in stump pulling gear 1-2mph at most, was painful to watch something push snow so slow.


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## BUFF

Roy would be pleased to see Skidders used and would freak oot if Feller Bunchers where used.......


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## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> Roy would be pleased to see Skidders used and would freak oot if Feller Bunchers where used.......


Literally an EPIC post.


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Literally an EPIC post.


I am Literally beside myself seeing those pictures...I think I passed out for a moment with sheer joy...Could have been the 13 Beers..But I think it was just the joy...


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## Randall Ave

Defcon 5 said:


> I am Literally beside myself seeing those pictures...I think I passed out for a moment with sheer joy...Could have been the 13 Beers..But I think it was just the joy...


Only 13, you OK?


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## Defcon 5

Randall Ave said:


> Only 13, you OK?


Yes...Gotta work at 4...


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## Randall Ave

I don't know how to price out a place that large. But here in Jersey the insurance alone going to be a killer. I would want a monthly retainer payment on top of the snow removal fees. Or I'd wouldn't even consider the job.


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## Nathan Kohn

It wouldn't be reasonable for a property that size to request that much equipment without expecting to pay a minimum charge whether it snows or not. I would give them base rates for each piece of equipment they requested and an hourly charge on top of the base rates for hours used. Mark up your seasonal lease cost at least 20% so you make money whether it snows or not. I would also recommend you push for a per application charge for salt. This gives you incentive to use the least amount to get the job done right (per their scope) and keep a healthy margin.


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## Masssnowfighter

Ramairfreak, you are crazy if you think one loader can keep up with 2million square ft no problem. These industrial sites and distribution centers you speak of require that much equipment for a good reason. They can't afford to have there trucks stuck in there parking lot because the plow guy thought one loader would be enough.


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## Masssnowfighter

As far as your mall account, I wouldn't do that with out some sorta of retainer fee. What are the NSP's paying for hourly rates these days?


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## John_DeereGreen

So if you're convinced you already know what you'd put there, and what you'd charge for said equipment, why are you asking us?

Because there is no way in hell one wheel loader, a backhoe, and 3 skids will be enough to cover 75 acres, unless it's in Florida.


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## Defcon 5

I wonder how many "Cubes" it would Take to service that property??...Can someone do the math for me??...I'm just a union monkey. - don't have enough fingers and toes...Those things stacked up on that property would look like the Great Wall of China..


A mall larger than that near me is done on a per push..Per App basis...no retainer


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Masssnowfighter said:


> As far as your mall account, I wouldn't do that with out some sorta of retainer fee. What are the NSP's paying for hourly rates these days?


Its not through an NSP  their rates are probably far too low as they call us MID storm and offer us rates lower than my contracted sites...

The mall told us don't worry about how to bill them for salt, they'll provide the salt then just pay us to spread it ! WTF was my only thought, if they think my plow/salt truck rate is just going to salt for 2-3 hours AND i hold their monstrosity of liability for the entire site.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

John_DeereGreen said:


> So if you're convinced you already know what you'd put there, and what you'd charge for said equipment, why are you asking us?
> 
> Because there is no way in hell one wheel loader, a backhoe, and 3 skids will be enough to cover 75 acres, unless it's in Florida.


Not one person has said what they'd use there yet in 2 pages of posts.... i know half of you are totally worthless trolls with one pickup and a skid steer guys but a couple that have done this could chime in...

All of the "need more than 1 loader comments", i would put 10 there if they would pay us for it but they won't, purposely im putting the least costly slew of good equipment/trucks there for a reason. NO lot is so big it NEEDS a loader, a skid steer, tractor or backhoe could push with a box, each lot, had there been multiple 400-600k open lots, then yes, 3-4 loaders may be damn required with a 12" storm.

This is NOT a distribution center, some photos were of another site this company had last year, don't confuse the two. The mall is just a mall, busy at times but like almost ALL malls, not like the used to be. At no time is this place using over 75% of its capacity of spots, the far lots almost never ever used. During a storm, it would NEVER reduce the capacity of the mall to park its patrons even if it took days to plow out everything beyond 50% of the closest spots.

We handled a train station half the size and kept it clear the entire 24" storm Jan/2016 with 4 skids, a tractor and one loader, the loader was never necessary for that site, had we not had it there, the 5 small machines would have easily handled the site on the worst of storms.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

John_DeereGreen said:


> So if you're convinced you already know what you'd put there, and what you'd charge for said equipment, why are you asking us?
> 
> Because there is no way in hell one wheel loader, a backhoe, and 3 skids will be enough to cover 75 acres, unless it's in Florida.


Two trucks in there too plus salt/plow truck... Have you done a site this size and what have you used?


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## John_DeereGreen

2 loaders with 16' boxes, 3 skids with wing plows, and I'd have a hard time not buying an older but reliable loader as a 3rd machine and to load salt. And I'd set up a 5-7 yard hydraulic salt truck for salting. 

Closest property in size and scope is just under 50 acres. We do it with 2 loaders and a skid steer. Salt on site. Takes just over 4.5 hours on a 4-6" event.


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## Defcon 5

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Two trucks in there too plus salt/plow truck... Have you done a site this size and what have you used?


I have...5 Loaders...Two Skids...Two Salt trucks...Plow trucks are not needed unless running some isles during the storm...Which loaders can do anyway...Skids replace any plow truck needed and you can run them down sidewalks...Might be a hair light in the loader count but with good operators it should not be a problem...If you have never service a property of this size your better to go on the higher side as far as equipment to cover your company's name and reputation...


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## Mark Oomkes

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> i know half of you are totally worthless trolls with one pickup and a skid steer guys


Guess I'm busted.


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## Masssnowfighter

I do 1.5 million sq ft. I use 4 loaders 1 backhoe and 1 skid steer and no trucks, except for salting and taking a quick nap for those 24 hour storms


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## Masssnowfighter

If they are willing to pay you by the hour for 5 loaders why wouldn't you want to put 5 loaders there? The most profitable machine per hour is gonna be a older loader with a pusher, compared to a truck or a skid steer. When I do snow hauling by the hour I give the customer an hourly rate for the whole group of equipment, not per machine. That way the clock starts when the first machine starts and ends when the last bit of snow is dumped


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## Maclawnco

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Not one person has said what they'd use there yet in 2 pages of posts.... i know half of you are totally worthless trolls with one pickup and a skid steer guys but a couple that have done this could chime in...


From past posts, it seems this would be one of your only or by far and away largest account. Regardless of how you would do it or what you would charge, its confusing why you keep looking for these huge accounts. Its like a guy who is a 4 or 5 being certain he has what it takes to bang a girl who is a 10. Lets be real.


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## Defcon 5

I'm hoping he gets this account...Because the endless threads on the Epic fails and how the customer is screwing him will keep me entertained for the entire winter....Literally


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## Mike_PS

as I have asked before in this thread, let's keep it on track and refrain from pot shots at the OP!


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## Defcon 5

We are somewhat MJD...But when someone asks for help and then insults the people trying to help...It's hard to keep it together...There are 3-4 or four people that have chimed in that have first hand knowledge of how to manage accounts of this size...I am one of them...But why would I be honest and forth right when someone is to dense to take that knowledge


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## Mark Oomkes

Ram, let me ask this (probably because of my lack of knowledge being a troll with 1 pickup and 1 skidsteer): Tolerance of snow is very low in Jersey from what I have been led to understand. Wouldn't it be best to overequip as opposed to underequip yourself for a high profile location such as this? Especially in the event of a NorEaster?

One other question: how long has your oldest customer been with you?


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## John_DeereGreen

Maclawnco said:


> From past posts, it seems this would be one of your only or by far and away largest account. Regardless of how you would do it or what you would charge, its confusing why you keep looking for these huge accounts. Its like a guy who is a 4 or 5 being certain he has what it takes to bang a girl who is a 10. Lets be real.


Because everyone wants to plow Walmart.

Until you actually have the account. Then it ain't all sunshine and roses.


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## John_DeereGreen

And you'd have better luck finding ice water in hell than plowing that whole place with a medium duty truck and 1 backhoe with a 12 foot box. I don't think you could keep even the lowest expectations up with that. 

You say you'd rather over equip than under equip. So why only one loader? Hell, put 8 in there, you'll be prepared for anything. Throw 6 skids at it. Pickups have no business on a property like this other than the boss driving through to check on it. 

You asked for advice and opinions, you're getting exactly that. It's just not what you expected.


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## Mark Oomkes

John_DeereGreen said:


> Because everyone wants to plow Walmart.
> 
> Until you actually have the account. Then it ain't all sunshine and roses.


I don't.


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> I don't.


Do too


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Masssnowfighter said:


> If they are willing to pay you by the hour for 5 loaders why wouldn't you want to put 5 loaders there? The most profitable machine per hour is gonna be a older loader with a pusher, compared to a truck or a skid steer. When I do snow hauling by the hour I give the customer an hourly rate for the whole group of equipment, not per machine. That way the clock starts when the first machine starts and ends when the last bit of snow is dumped


Because it pays HOURLY.. If they agreed to a minimum, or retainer, or $25k for the season per machine regardless if it snowed or not, i'd make sure every piece of equipment that can make money per month is sitting on their site... this is not that type of account. This is an HOURLY only account, they're very demanding of insurance and equipment with $0 to back it up. Looking back at this past season 16/17, where NJ saw such little snowfall ever, rough calculating out my numbers of per times we plowed "3" total the whole season, we would have billed between $15-40k for this site, with the amount of equipment alone we'd owe $100k+ still for the equipment from last season, then factor in the snow insurance cost, where they base it on an avg. of billable sales. NO WAY are they going to assume an account this size would pay under 100k, so a policy price JUST for this one account would cost 20-30k in NJ, thats paid up front in October, before 2000-3000 snow stakes are installed and before a single piece of equipment is mobilized.... you could be out a hundred grand on an hourly account like this, assume 100% liability for every NJ slip and fall and it never snows enough to plow... they'd pay us $180/hr to spread salt, and when i assume each app could be done in 3hrs or less for the lots/roads, thats $570 per salt app, we had 8 total this past season or roughly $4700 they would have paid us last season for salt...


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Masssnowfighter said:


> If they are willing to pay you by the hour for 5 loaders why wouldn't you want to put 5 loaders there? The most profitable machine per hour is gonna be a older loader with a pusher, compared to a truck or a skid steer. When I do snow hauling by the hour I give the customer an hourly rate for the whole group of equipment, not per machine. That way the clock starts when the first machine starts and ends when the last bit of snow is dumped


Interesting, i never through of it that way, usually in nj we're always pricing per hour per piece... which has gotten hairy becuase then they can dispute "why did you bill me 4 skids to load 1 dump truck this hour, or 4 trucks sat and only 1 skid loaded"?


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Maclawnco said:


> From past posts, it seems this would be one of your only or by far and away largest account. Regardless of how you would do it or what you would charge, its confusing why you keep looking for these huge accounts. Its like a guy who is a 4 or 5 being certain he has what it takes to bang a girl who is a 10. Lets be real.


3m definitely would be the largest account. We've always done many smaller sites "route accounts" , and that was great except within the last few years, they're either all done by NSP only or they're hiring scabs for $75 an hour... we can't compete to do a small site that takes two hours we once did for $350-400 when bids come in for $120 a push.

The large accounts are simple. We own a lot of equipment now, we won't work for any NSPs finally, have a vast array of equipment to put on these larger sites which gives us an advantage over just about any small guy who doesn't have the equipment and our competition is only larger companies or brickmans/merit etc. who just slap three separate subs on one large site and pay all hourly anyway. Last year we had a lot of equipment sit idle. I have the capability by all means to handle this 3m sq ft mall, if it were a train station like our largest site for the previous seasons at 1.4~ m sq ft but a 3m sq ft version, then i'd agree we would need more trucks, another loader or two and a couple extra backhoes.

I know for a fact, that the mall, although HUGE demands in this contract, are essentially cheap, and that showed last season how the site was done each storm. We are all on our high horse about 3m sq ft, but come January, i'd have the account and be on here complaining how all was good until they'd stop us plowing after 50% of the lots were completed after any storm and just leave half unplowed...yes it appeared they did that each storm last year, they wouldn't even salt half of the site, most all the lots far from the building were just slush/snow covered for days after a storm, luckily for them it was pretty warm and it eventually melted quick.

The loader issue is simple too, we OWN one large wheel loader, so i know how much it would cost for a 2yr lease and also 4 month rental for said same machine from CAT or JD. Again, if they PAID for it, i would give them 20 $^%@#$^ loaders, i have a good line with JD at least and just maybe they would lease/rent out that may with some deposits  When they demand 5 and offer $0, i say !$%^#@! you, thats not making us a dime, i'd rather give you less and work it for more hours each storm, the loader could go to a site willing to pay $$$$$$ that needs a loader and gains us a large site, for large deicing totals and lots of sq footage some company that has no loader wouldn't want to take.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Mark Oomkes said:


> Ram, let me ask this (probably because of my lack of knowledge being a troll with 1 pickup and 1 skidsteer): Tolerance of snow is very low in Jersey from what I have been led to understand. Wouldn't it be best to overequip as opposed to underequip yourself for a high profile location such as this? Especially in the event of a NorEaster?
> 
> One other question: how long has your oldest customer been with you?


Generally yes, i answered this above... just because its a mall/shopping/retail, don't let this confuse anyone that its anything near zero tolerance. There are some other high end new/modern "strip mall" complexes and 100% of them would demand to be cleared by 7/8/9am time frames, you could use multiple larger machines on a lot half the size.

I would love a noreaster, let that one loader work for days @hourly rate for them 

We've lost many customers, partly our fault at times but many poor choices on who i've contracted over the years, usually just trying to gain any account that is within existing routes, close proximity etc.

We do have a few customers we've done since 2009/2010 season and onward, however most were always NSP hired and so every single year it changed.. We've done multiple acmes, actually the same sites year after year, for NSP after NSP, i had a slight advantage in negotiations because i knew what the contract figures would bear, what a slap in the face when they offer you half of previous year's deicing figure.. we've since lost that account though last year because ACME jumped from one to another, finally to a company i was certain all but went under years ago, in hammonton, nj picked up the entire acme account, another paper office, wanted to hire us for 1/2 price, they hired my old competition for far less, who was dying for the accounts. He rented a JD backhoe for each site, i'm glad he likely lost his butt last year because they probably didn't get paid enough to cover their insurance or rental even. I also despise these lowlifes in browns mills, nj, a dump of a town in south jersey, because they once had their cronies drive by in their jacked pickup truck, yelling stuff out the window to a girl who was working with us doing mulch at the same sites years back... then a guy who once worked for us as a plow driver "wasn't very good" i didn't rehire the following years, told me they basically hate us because he thinks i stole all the machines we use lol. I'm just not like him... his competition is "Affordable landscaping", literally they are affordable for good reason!


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Mark Oomkes said:


> I don't.


No one here wants walmarts, it shouldnt even be used as slang for trying to gain "big accounts" lol. What kind of equipment do you use for snow anyway Mark? more than one truck


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## Mark Oomkes

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Because it pays HOURLY.. If they agreed to a minimum, or retainer, or $25k for the season per machine regardless if it snowed or not, i'd make sure every piece of equipment that can make money per month is sitting on their site... this is not that type of account. This is an HOURLY only account, they're very demanding of insurance and equipment with $0 to back it up.


Then why does it matter what any of us would put on this account since they have their requirements and no one in their right mind is going to agree to it?

It's an exercise in futility. As is this whole thread.

Because if you somehow ended up being awarded the bid, sometime in January or February you'd start up another thread complaining about late payments, the competitors piling snow in your entrance, them firing you for no reason, Ferrendino sucks and any other host of reasons. Never understood why you get so bent about what everybody else does and charges and everything else. Why don't you just focus on what you need to do?


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## Mark Oomkes

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> No one here wants walmarts, it shouldnt even be used as slang for trying to gain "big accounts" lol. What kind of equipment do you use for snow anyway Mark? more than one truck


A pickup and a skidsteer.


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## John_DeereGreen

Mark Oomkes said:


> A pickup and a skidsteer.


Like these??


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## Mark Oomkes

Mark Oomkes said:


> A pickup and a skidsteer.


And a shovel.


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## JustJeff

Mark Oomkes said:


> Then why does it matter what any of us would put on this account since they have their requirements and no one in their right mind is going to agree to it?
> 
> It's an exercise in futility. As is this whole thread.
> 
> Because if you somehow ended up being awarded the bid, sometime in January or February you'd start up another thread complaining about late payments, the competitors piling snow in your entrance, them firing you for no reason, Ferrendino sucks and any other host of reasons. Never understood why you get so bent about what everybody else does and charges and everything else. Why don't you just focus on what you need to do?


EXACTLY the point. If they REQUIRE specific types amounts of equipment on their site, you either accept the contract or not. And I am one of the trolls, just one truck and working on a second (and I don't even have a skid  ). But I know when a job is A) too big for me. And B) certain jobs aren't worth the money/hoops I'd have to jump through. The older I get the more I learn that "not all money is good money". That statement means a lot to me. If I have a homeowner or HOA that's willing to pay me my 120.00 per hour labor rate, but they're going to be a pain in my ass, I'll walk away every single time. But then I don't come home and cry to everybody here about it looking for someone to console me.


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## Defcon 5

Why in the world would anyone pay $25k a machine retainer??...I assume your gonna Snow lease the adequate equipment to service this site??...Based on the hourly rate they are willing to pay...I assuming your getting a bit of sticker shock when your doing the rough math...


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## BUFF

Defcon 5 said:


> Why in the world would anyone pay $25k a machine retainer??...I assume your gonna Snow lease the adequate equipment to service this site??...Based on the hourly rate they are willing to pay...I assuming your getting a bit of sticker shock when your doing the rough math...


Location?


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## Maclawnco

The right contractor can make this account and terms work - if they wanted to. They need to own their equip outright or have subs willing to go straight hourly, no minimums. Or, have too much other seasonal work amd want to balance their portfolio? The reasons and ways to make this work are honestly many. I could make it work but I wouldnt choose to. Its out of your league. 

Free advise. 1) sell your loader if its snow only for you. You dont need it. 2) go build routes of .5 - 2 acre lots for pickups and 450/550s. Maybe a couple 4 or 5 acres if you have skids you otherwise need foe other times of the year


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## Masssnowfighter

Some more free advise if you do choose to go forward with it. Do not lease your equipment!!! I never winter leased a machine but from what people tell me it's about $16k per season per machine. So some simple math $16k x 4 equals $64k. If you get no snow you just flushed all that money right down the toilet. 
Im assuming you are a bit of equipment snob and only want to use new loaders? In case you didn't know a good older loader for $25k will push the exact same amount of snow as a brand new $200k loader. 
So this is what you do to acquire 4 good old loaders. First you go to the bank and get $100k business line of credit. The interest only payments will be about $400 a month. Worst case you get no snow, you can off load the equipment in the spring and only be out a couple grand in interest payments to the bank, instead of $64k on leased equipment. And if you do get a lot of snow, every machine will most likely pay for itself. If you are not mechanical savvy make sure you bring a heavy equipment mechanic along with you so you don't end up buying a worn out piece of crap.


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## Maclawnco

Ram, read this article. Then read it again. And again. https://blog.eosworldwide.com/blog/stop-wasting-your-time-networking

*Pick a Pool Where Your Target Market Swims*
So how can you reduce the drag on every stroke? How can you become effective at target market networking?

If you want stronger results, swim in the right pools! You have to swim where your ideal target market swims. Your target market might not be in the baby pool or the Olympic pool. They might be in a city pool, a river, a waterpark, or something else. The metaphor's many options fit real life networking's many venues.

So how do you know which pool is the right pool?

*Defining Your Target Market*
EOS® Implementers help their clients to define their target market in three areas:


*Demographic.* You need to know what they look like. How much revenue do they have? How many employees? Are they a specific gender? Are they a specific age range? In short: what are the facts and stats about them?
*Geographic.* You need to know where they are. Is your ideal target market 90 minutes from each of your locations? Are they in a specific state or region? Are you global?
*Psychographic.* This is probably the most important piece of defining your target. Can you describe the personality and key characteristics of your target? How will you know them when you see them? (Examples: conservative, liberal, extroverted, introverted, adventurous, epicurious, innovative, first adopters, cautious, detail-oriented, quick to make decisions, interested in partnerships, etc.).
Remember, you aren't just defining anyone you can do business with, you're defining your ideal target market. The spotlight here is narrower than the total of all of your customers. It is your best customers.

*Target Market Networking Mastery*
If you look at your best and favorite clients and customers:


What do they look like? Who are they and where are they located?
What do they sound like? What do they believe? Now imagine at least 80% of your clients being exactly that.
Focusing on the right target market for what you do will ensure you are more profitable, successful, and happy.

Once you know who they are, you can determine where they hang out (which pools do they swim in).

So swim in the right pools. Attend the right events, activities, and networking to increase your odds of success to be of service to your ideal target market.

*Where Does Your Target Market Swim?*
If your target market swims in one pool, learn how to swim there. Stop wasting valuable strokes in the wrong pools on activities that make you busy and are not serving you or others. You need to master target market networking!

Be relentless about your ideal target market. Invest your time, energy and resources on the right market. And, of course, stay out of the pools where you don't belong. Be where you belong - with your ideal customers.

*Next Steps*

Pre-order _What The Heck Is EOS?_ for every employee in your company to get everyone rowing in the same direction. Save 50% when you order 20+ hardcover copies of the book!
Download a free chapter of _What the Heck is EOS?_


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## Defcon 5

The Cliff note version of that wonderful article you posted is...He needs to stay out of the deep end


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> The Cliff note version of that wonderful article you posted is...He needs to stay out of the deep end


Did your daughter explain that to you?


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## Defcon 5

Masssnowfighter said:


> Some more free advise if you do choose to go forward with it. Do not lease your equipment!!! I never winter leased a machine but from what people tell me it's about $16k per season per machine. So some simple math $16k x 4 equals $64k. If you get no
> 
> snow you just flushed all that money right down the toilet.
> Im assuming you are a bit of equipment snob and only want to use new loaders? In case you
> 
> didn't know a good older loader for $25k will push the exact same amount of snow as a brand new $200k loader.
> 
> So this is what you do to acquire 4 good old loaders. First you go to the bank and get $100k business line of credit. The interest only
> 
> payments will be about $400 a month. Worst case you get no snow, you can off load the equipment in the spring and only be out a couple grand in interest payments to the bank,
> 
> instead of $64k on leased equipment. And if you do get a lot of snow, every machine will most likely pay for itself. If you are not mechanical savvy make sure you bring a heavy equipment
> 
> mechanic along with you so you don't end up
> 
> buying a worn out piece of crap.


Heed this advice...Winter leasing for an Hourly job would be suicide...Subcontracting loaders with a modest retainer for them is an option


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Did your daughter explain that to you?


Yes...


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Yes...


Kinda figgered.....


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Kinda figgered.....


Why are you trolling me??...Dont you have better things to do?


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Why are you trolling me??...Dont you have better things to do?


No...


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## Mark Oomkes

Do you???


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Do you???


Yes...I'm going to Slows for dinner in a bit


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Yes...I'm going to Slows for dinner in a bit


Sure...


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## Masssnowfighter

Defcon 5 said:


> The Cliff note version of that wonderful article you posted is...He needs to stay out of the deep end


He needs to keep swimming with the NSP provided bubble


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## Doin_It

Question for you Ramairfreak, well OK, maybe 1 question and a couple of statements, when I put in that address into Findlotsize.com, and follow the white lines you have from your screen shot, I only get 1.14m square feet, and that includes the entire shopping mall buildings in the measurement. Where am I missing the other million plus square feet? 

Also not quite sure on your Deere skidders story. All the winters I logged in Northern Canada running Deere 648's, they get up and dangle. 150 HP I think and about 12-13 MPH. That's slow in a parking lot for sure, but try bouncing over dead fall and logs, and you'll come out the window. They probably looked slow, but I bet they never bogged down and just pushed.


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## Doin_It

To answer your question as to what to use.....1 loader, 1 skidsteer. The loader needs a wing plow it can box with or wing out to cover more space and windrow. The skid can back drag your edges for you then put on a box and help out.

Like I said I found less the 750,00' (17 acres) of parking lot. SIMA says on an open "A" lot like this one a 14' plow will do almost 3 acres and hour on an average snowstorm. So on 2" you can knock it out in less then 5 hours.

We do 37 (1.6 million feet) acres of mall parking lot and can do it in 7 hours with 2 skids and 1 loader on 2" snowfall.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Doin_It said:


> To answer your question as to what to use.....1 loader, 1 skidsteer. The loader needs a wing plow it can box with or wing out to cover more space and windrow. The skid can back drag your edges for you then put on a box and help out.
> 
> Like I said I found less the 750,00' (17 acres) of parking lot. SIMA says on an open "A" lot like this one a 14' plow will do almost 3 acres and hour on an average snowstorm. So on 2" you can knock it out in less then 5 hours.
> 
> We do 37 (1.6 million feet) acres of mall parking lot and can do it in 7 hours with 2 skids and 1 loader on 2" snowfall.


Thanks for the info, let me look up this address again, i know it cant be 750k, maybe you didn't measure the whole site? I got a perimeter of 8,160LF and 2,424LF from one side to the other. Total site is about 4.2m sq ft minus the mall building and the small islands.


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## Defcon 5

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Thanks for the info, let me look up this address again, i know it cant be 750k, maybe you didn't measure the whole site? I got a perimeter of 8,160LF and 2,424LF from one side to the other. Total site is about 4.2m sq ft minus the mall building and the small islands.


Did you get it????


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## F250/XLS

Maclawnco said:


> The right contractor can make this account and terms work - if they wanted to. They need to own their equip outright or have subs willing to go straight hourly, no minimums. Or, have too much other seasonal work amd want to balance their portfolio? The reasons and ways to make this work are honestly many. I could make it work but I wouldnt choose to. Its out of your league.
> 
> Free advise. 1) sell your loader if its snow only for you. You dont need it. 2) go build routes of .5 - 2 acre lots for pickups and 450/550s. Maybe a couple 4 or 5 acres if you have skids you otherwise need foe other times of the year


All of the equipment is to stay on site at all times throughout the season.
Hummm The client DECIDES what to use ?
When to start ? When to punch out ? When to salt ? How much to apply ? And what ever is on the other 30 pages of the contract .....

It simply doesn't make any sens.
Also piling on site the entire season ?
How long will it take to finalize the whole clean up ??? They decide what you will use
so you need to have man power on stand by


Defcon 5 said:


> Did you get it????


don't think so


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Defcon 5 said:


> Did you get it????


no haha, actually the person who handles the control/maintenance of the snow contract at the site, mistakenly called us, and then once he realized who he called back tracked and said oh he was calling just as a courtesy to let us know they are going with another bid, because other companies are "willing" to work with their hourly schedules of payment and won't charge them additional for the insurance and they won't rent just the equipment from us.... i estimated we'd have to make at least $170k on the account per year for equipment costs alone, with nothing else considered, and they wern't willing to pay ANY minimums. oh well. I will be sure to post up some pics of what it looks like this winter, it will be a crapshow for sure. I'm sure there will be 1/10th of the "required" equipment there on site too.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

F250/XLS said:


> All of the equipment is to stay on site at all times throughout the season.
> Hummm The client DECIDES what to use ?
> When to start ? When to punch out ? When to salt ? How much to apply ? And what ever is on the other 30 pages of the contract .....
> 
> It simply doesn't make any sens.
> Also piling on site the entire season ?
> How long will it take to finalize the whole clean up ??? They decide what you will use
> so you need to have man power on stand by
> 
> don't think so


pretty much, i spoke to a company who previously worked the account and said the issues that came up immediately, and it was all the above...

they call you in at 9pm, snow doesn't start till midnight, ALL your machines have operators in them and they want them idling and READY for their whistle.. only to wait maybe till midnight, then they come out with time cards and say ok, sorry, send 2 loaders a truck and a backhoe, the rest we won't need till 6am, storm changed "or whatever", your other employees you already had to pay, fuel, time, etc. now what do they get sent home? wait around for 6 hours while it snows enough to "need" them? you can't "not" pay them.

They tell you when to start and when to end, they supply all the salt, and they tell you when and what areas ONLY to salt, not the whole place. You assume all risk of insurance, overhead for employees/equipment etc. Honestly, if they want it done this way, they should rent or lease all the equipment themselves, buy their own salt, and hire their own crew just to work maintenance and do snow storms at the mall..


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