# looking at Diesel trucks which do you prefer



## PLOWMAN45 (Jul 2, 2003)

Looking at Diesel trucks which do you prefer Cummins or Duramax i dont like ford diesels


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

.....


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

:yow!:


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

The one that runs.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Too bad the Cummins has to have Mopar dragging it down...


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## 906Yooper (Sep 7, 2016)

I have a Duramax now, my 4th diesel. They ALL have their problems. My next truck is going to be a gasser, probably GM, not sure.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Saying again, I like beer with the popcorn. I would go with a Dodge/Cummins. But I think they all suck now.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

JMHConstruction said:


> Too bad the Cummins has to have Mopar dragging it down...


 a poor carpenter blames his tools......


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

PLOWMAN45 said:


> Looking at Diesel trucks which do you prefer Cummins or Duramax i dont like ford diesels


I prefer the inline cummins, I also prefer the allison, I can't get the combination that I'm aware of. Buy which one you get the best deal on. Good Luck


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

how about add to the discussion in a productive way and offer an opinion, rather then just addding popcorn smilies

thanks


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> how about add to the discussion in a productive way and offer an opinion, rather then just addding popcorn smilies
> 
> thanks


I thought the idea of watching was being sort of productive, but I digress.

:laugh:

IF didn't love my brick cummins truck so much, I'd go out and buy a new 3500 or 4500 cummins with the G56 and enjoy myself being in all that luxury and quietness.

I'm not a fan of Ford trucks cabin noise quality control, as I drove a buddy of mine's for a about a week, and I hated the wind noise that the crew cab seemed to have in its doors. This is really strange (and I admit, so am I) considering my brick I drive daily couldn't have any more wind noise unless I put a big Home Depot box fan on the passenger seat while I drove around with it blasting on me. I guess it's just that I'm spoiled by my Toyota's that I've owned for the last 23 years that are as quiet inside as the day I bought it. Zero wind noise. My buddies truck was a year old and under 10K on the ticker. Even hated the fuel mileage even more at just about 10 to 12 MPG, when I'm so used to 18+ with the brick, I just wouldn't consider it. I would also like / enjoy the standard transmission much more than my slushbox I have now.

The new diesels are full of emissions junk that kill fuel mileage. I guess you could delete all that stuff, and have a great running, reilable truck, but I figure I already have that in my Noisy, Old, Slowly being discontinued parts, beast of an old brick, why switch now ?Thumbs Up

I have zero experience with GM Diesels, but the guys who I know who have them love them.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I like my 02 Ferd with the 7.3, yes guys say here that they are a dinasore, but its paid for, and at 137000 miles, she has a lot of life left in her. I would not take a new Ford diesel. I just don't think cab removal should be a part of any maintenance. I have always been a Cummins fan, but I hate Dodge. I do not know what I would buy now. They need to make a pickup with a screaming two stroke Detroit. Thumbs Up


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

https://www.nissanusa.com/trucks/titan-xd

Nissan Titan XD. Cummins

Made in America
http://www.continentalnissan.com/blog/is-the-nissan-titan-made-in-america/


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Like all the other diesels it sounds great, untill they attach the emissions systems.



The rest will come crawling back from Mexico after the tariffs are in place and nafta is fully repeled .


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I think all three make a quality diesel now that Ford went to the 6.7. I love my Cummins, but I had to spend the money to delete it to get the truck that I wanted. Better mileage now, and a more responsive engine. I wouldn't buy a diesel just for the sole purpose of plowing snow though. A gas truck will get it done just as well, without the premium price tag.


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## PLOWMAN45 (Jul 2, 2003)

i have a gasser now


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

OP if you don't need to drag 15-20000 lbs everyday? Stick with a gasser!! Fuel cost are nearly par, and maintaining can be much cheaper aswell as the 10k price difference on the sticker


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

PLOWMAN45 said:


> i have a gasser now


So why switch to a diesel?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Guys why do we have to discuss pro's and cons of Diesel verses gas, Again this is a subject that will often get locked because no one will agree on this. 

Op, The Duramax or the cummins are good diesels and should serve you well. You already stated you don't like Ford. Just keep in mind, Whichever you decide on they all could break and have issues. 

It's all about what you want, I don't need Diesel in my big dumps either plenty of guys still running gas in dumps. You can build a brick home or you could build stick built home. I don't need the brick but prefer it even if it is more money. 

You will get most of your extra investment back at resale time. Good luck


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

906Yooper said:


> I have a Duramax now, my 4th diesel. They ALL have their problems. My next truck is going to be a gasser, probably GM, not sure.





Dogplow Dodge said:


> https://www.nissanusa.com/trucks/titan-xd
> 
> Nissan Titan XD. Cummins
> 
> ...


Those titan are fun to drive, Even the gas are fast and impressive. I should be a expert on them, My BIL just bought one. Anytime he comes around I have to do a walk around and get my ear chewed off and how the big 3 are all junk. lol


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## White_Gold11 (Jan 4, 2016)

We have both Cummins and duramax trucks. Both excellent diesels..Allison trans is amazing! We quit buying them a little while back and just stick with chevy 6l pickups. As others have said we found it to be more cost effective and still get the job done with gas. Once the emissions issues started we opted out of diesel pickups. Look for older uses if you want diesel and read reviews.Also Ford 450 up i believe can be bought cummins/ Allison.. good combo imo..


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

i have both!....gas is better for the cold days, have an lb7 with 200,000 on it.....runs like a top, mpg on it is better than the gas, however my buddy with new 1 ton dodge/cummins is getting 4-5 mpg better...
that said, 
i would buy where you have the best dealer support, i have found not all dealerships have a good diesel tech in the shop


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> I like my 02 Ferd with the 7.3, yes guys say here that they are a dinasore, but its paid for, and at 137000 miles, she has a lot of life left in her. I would not take a new Ford diesel. I just don't think cab removal should be a part of any maintenance. I have always been a Cummins fan, but I hate Dodge. I do not know what I would buy now. They need to make a pickup with a screaming two stroke Detroit. Thumbs Up


I got a 3-71 decent size blower 115hp. Come out of a terex loader. I want to stick it in a pickup. The parts are cheap and the labor is relatively easy. The problem I have how could I keep it somewhat quiet. I got a 97 7.3 dinasore powersmoke just broke 100k. Old truck or not that truck is going nowhere.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

My diesel gets better milage than my gasser .
The diesel tows easer/better. 
The added weight is nice in crosswinds.
The turbo is nice in the mountains cupeled with the exhaust brake.

If you plow in the winter and tow during the summer why not look at a diesel and the gass option.
Go drive both.

With the emmision diesels of today id probabely choose a gasser to plow with.

Ps the gasser engines seem to have issues too,


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

FredG said:


> I got a 3-71 decent size blower 115hp. Come out of a terex loader. I want to stick it in a pickup. The parts are cheap and the labor is relatively easy. The problem I have how could I keep it somewhat quiet. I got a 97 7.3 dinasore powersmoke just broke 100k. Old truck or not that truck is going nowhere.


That would not have enough power for ya, at least I don't think so. And Fred, your doing that TO MAKE NOISE!!!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

FWIW I would run diesel in my personal vehicles if I could, I only buy Toyota - Lexus same thing with the exception of fluff. I have a close friend that is a expert on them and treats me well very inexpensive to maintain and by my experience been trouble free. He only does the Toyota, Honda thing and sticks his nose up if asked to work on something else. lol


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

White_Gold11 said:


> We have both Cummins and duramax trucks. Both excellent diesels..Allison trans is amazing! We quit buying them a little while back and just stick with chevy 6l pickups. As others have said we found it to be more cost effective and still get the job done with gas. Once the emissions issues started we opted out of diesel pickups. Look for older uses if you want diesel and read reviews.Also Ford 450 up i believe can be bought cummins/ Allison.. good combo imo..


Not arguing, but I would have to see a picture of a f450 with a factory Cummins. Now the 650,or850 could get a Cummins or a Cat. I never seen one in a truck that small.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> Not arguing, but I would have to see a picture of a f450 with a factory Cummins. Now the 650,or850 could get a Cummins or a Cat. I never seen one in a truck that small.


I agree the small trucks would have a ford diesel. I could be wrong buy never seen a allison in a f 450 550.  Any make big truck could have a allison.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

OP I have had a bad experience with my Cummins. I love the truck when it's running but it's spent a lot of time in the shop. That being said, I think it may just be my truck. They all have issues, most don't have as many as mine. And like Sno said you could have problems just as easy with a gasser. All that being said here are some of my observations.

I pull a trailer almost every day. Either an enclosed box trailer that has all my tools in it, or a flatbed trailer with my tractor, construction waste etc. on it. I live in the mountains and the torque and engine brake on the Cummins are very nice to have. Notice I said it's very nice, the gas truck I had before the diesel did the job.

Maintenance is very expensive compared to the gasser, but the intervals can be longer in between so it could be a wash. 

If you pull a trailer every day and have bad roads like we do, tires don't last. I get half the life I did on tires pulling the same trailers with a gasser.

The diesel is awesome for plowing. All that weight really helps. You can do a lot more with less stress as you can keep the RPMs a lot lower, and you aren't spinning the tires as much with a full blade of snow. But, setting up the truck to plow with can be a pain. The diesel is heavier so you may find that the plow you want isn't available for that truck or you will need to do suspension upgrades like I did with mine. 

The diesel absolutely gets better mileage when towing every day. But I'm not sure that in the long run with the added cost of the motor, the more expensive maintenance, and here diesel actually costs more than unleaded, that it would ever pay for itself with the better mileage. 

Those are my experiences with them. Would I get another Diesel? Yes. But I would do a delete right off the bat. Both have pros and cons, and I think it's going to come down to what you use it for when not plowing that should be the deciding factor. If you were to only use the truck for plowing and it sat the rest of the year, I would say hands down get a gasser.


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## Mistifier (Aug 21, 2016)

U could only get a cat or cummins in the 450 and up in the earlier yrs and they are pretty rare. I think it ended '05 to '08


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Reminds me in the old days when 4wh hoes were coming into the picture. Blah blah blah don't need the 4wh hoe and if you did get stuck with a 2wh you should not have been in there. The extra money for the 4wh was not worth it. I don't know about your area's. Trying to find a 2wh hoe would be like trying to find a flea on a elephants butt...Boy things do sure change. lol


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

FredG said:


> Reminds me in the old days when 4wh hoes were coming into the picture. Blah blah blah don't need the 4wh hoe and if you did get stuck with a 2wh you should not have been in there. The extra money for the 4wh was not worth it. I don't know about your area's. Trying to find a 2wh hoe would be like trying to find a flea on a elephants butt...Boy things do sure change. lol


My dad said they said that about 4x4 pickups in the early 70's that they weren't any good, also said the same about 4x4 farm tractors. All they did was get you stuck worse. I still like Diesels, I find with the duramax specifically even with 100,000 mile on them they still perform like new. The emissions really haven't caused us many problems as of yet and they can easily be addressed when they do. Everyone wants used duramax's so I think I get my money out of them when we sell also. If you can afford a diesel I'd buy one, if you can't a gas will do most likely.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

We always took the front drive shaft off the 70's 4x4 in the summer,
cause it was always on and we got tired of replacing the u joints on it.
I used to say the same thing about lawn mowers, if you're in somewhere that you need 4wd you shouldn't be there but it sure cuts down the time in wet summers.
My 07 duramax is at 268k miles, the Allison is bullet proof not a hiccup.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Mr.Markus said:


> We always took the front drive shaft off the 70's 4x4 in the summer,
> cause it was always on and we got tired of replacing the u joints on it.
> I used to say the same thing about lawn mowers, if you're in somewhere that you need 4wd you shouldn't be there but it sure cuts down the time in wet summers.
> My 07 duramax is at 268k miles, the Allison is bullet proof not a hiccup.


Touch wood!!!


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JD Dave said:


> Touch wood!!!


That's inappropriate


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

ktfbgb said:


> That's inappropriate


To much man love around here.


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## White_Gold11 (Jan 4, 2016)

Randall Ave said:


> Not arguing, but I would have to see a picture of a f450 with a factory Cummins. Now the 650,or850 could get a Cummins or a Cat. I never seen one in a truck that small.


I guess I was wrong but I do know some f... version at some time had a Cummins/Allison combo. See them on auctions all of the time. Anyways my vote is for duramax/Allison..lol


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

White_Gold11 said:


> I guess I was wrong but I do know some f... version at some time had a Cummins/Allison combo. See them on auctions all of the time. Anyways my vote is for duramax/Allison..lol


Larger trucks yes, but not a 450, or a 550. Niether of those trucks front ends would support the weight of a Cat. The larger Ford's had mostly 3116, then a 3126, then a C-7 Cats depending on the years. Some had Cummins 5.9, they were 650, juice brakes.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I have had quite a few d max/ Allison trucks threw the years.

Plowing snow I have never broke one Allison yet.

Sled pulling and or drag racing... that is a different story.

Nice thing about them Allisons is that you can throw anyone in the truck and not have to worry about the trans.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Although I also say that I have had the other brands, just once I tried the duramax... well I have stuck with what works.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> I have had quite a few d max/ Allison trucks threw the years.
> 
> Plowing snow I have never broke one Allison yet.
> 
> ...


Anyone???....You sure??.....


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Defcon 5 said:


> Anyone???....You sure??.....


Your just dying to test that theory arnt ya.


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## Mistifier (Aug 21, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, how do u dmax guys like that reverse gear? I farm truck is a dmax and it drives my CRAZY


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mistifier said:


> Just out of curiosity, how do u dmax guys like that reverse gear? I farm truck is a dmax and it drives my CRAZY


Do you really need to go faster than 12 mph in reverse?


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## Mr. Jon (Feb 24, 2010)

Mistifier said:


> Just out of curiosity, how do u dmax guys like that reverse gear? I farm truck is a dmax and it drives my CRAZY


It's one of the main reasons I bought my second dmax! It keeps me from sliding down the steep driveways I plow. 4 wheel low, reverse, and just let it creep down slowly.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Mr. Jon said:


> It's one of the main reasons I bought my second dmax! It keeps me from sliding down the steep driveways I plow. 4 wheel low, reverse, and just let it creep down slowly.


Maybe the guys in northern Arizona should get an allison

Ktfbgb???


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Philbilly2 said:


> Do you really need to go faster than 12 mph in reverse?


I asked a transmission guru one day about trucks and the reverse gear. From what I understood he told me that it has a lot to do with the base 1st gear of the vehicle you are driving, and the gear ratio for the weight of that vehicle. The reasoning behind this is every vehicle needs to be able to back up a steep incline at max load Without needing to redline the engine.
For a comparison, an Audi S5 does 15 mph top speed in reverse. 
Although I doubt I could handle 4L plowing in anything, I agree you don't need to be at the top speed in reverse when plowing.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Maybe the guys in northern Arizona should get an allison
> 
> Ktfbgb???


Cruel!!!!


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mr.Markus said:


> I asked a transmission guru one day about trucks and the reverse gear. From what I understood he told me that it has a lot to do with the base 1st gear of the vehicle you are driving, and the gear ratio for the weight of that vehicle. The reasoning behind this is every vehicle needs to be able to back up a steep incline at max load Without needing to redline the engine.
> For a comparison, an Audi S5 does 15 mph top speed in reverse.
> Although I doubt I could handle 4L plowing in anything, I agree you don't need to be at the top speed in reverse when plowing.


I backed into a concrete light pole base my first or second year of plowing. Hit it better than 25mph in reverse. Distroyed the v box and flat bed. I agree after that, no need for high speed in reverse. If it is that long of a run that you need 30mph, turn around and windrow the other way too.

Years back, quite a few of the 4l85s took a hit in a 28" storm. Most lost reverse... reverse is close to 30 mph = a very tall gear.

Tall gear in reverse on a heavy truck is never good.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Lol 24.85 mph is the speed limit on our Main Street going forward.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> Cruel!!!!


lol He loves him. :laughing: Why else would he be so nice to him.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Maybe the guys in northern Arizona should get an allison
> 
> Ktfbgb???


Hey now. I would love to have an Allison if they weren't attached to a government motors. Like the old saying goes, Ford chassis with a Cummins and an Allison would be the best truck ever. Sure you can do it but I don't have that much money to spend on a plow truck. I was actually reading some articles on transmissions last night from some very reputable auto magazines. They were comparing transmissions from the big three. Dodge obviously came in last. But what surprised me was the head to head on the Ford 6 speed and Allison 6speed. Technically the Ford had bigger parts inside and more fluid capacity which technically would make it stronger than an Allison. But then it comes down to software programming on each. And it wasn't specifically stated but the way I read it the Allison had better OEM tuning making it bulletproof along with how it learns and then protects itself from the driver. But, with proper aftermarket tuning the Ford trans was capable of accepting more torque making it just as reliable as the Allison. But as for off the shelf and stock Allison was the winner across multiple articles.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

The articles also talked about the 68RFE trans on the Cummins. They stated that technically speaking it should be more than capable of handling the Cummins with high reliability. The parts and components are big enough and it's a quality transmission. The problem comes from chrystlers inability to properly tune the transmission. They have always had this problem and have not been able to write a proper tune for some reason. Making a strong argument that if you buy an aftermarket tuner package for the transmission then the transmission should be a great trans. It just sucks that you need to have it tuned so that it will be reliable.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> I backed into a concrete light pole base my first or second year of plowing. Hit it better than 25mph in reverse. Distroyed the v box and flat bed. I agree after that, no need for high speed in reverse. If it is that long of a run that you need 30mph, turn around and windrow the other way too.
> 
> Years back, quite a few of the 4l85s took a hit in a 28" storm. Most lost reverse... reverse is close to 30 mph = a very tall gear.
> 
> Tall gear in reverse on a heavy truck is never good.


Ya that will wake you up, Don't do much for your performance or pocket either. Not saying I don't hit something now and then. Just a lot slower and less damage. lol


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

ktfbgb said:


> Hey now. I would love to have an Allison if they weren't attached to a government motors. Like the old saying goes, Ford chassis with a Cummins and an Allison would be the best truck ever. .


I concur ! Thumbs Up

My "dream ride" is a leaf sprung 97 (or so) F350, 5.9 Cummins, 6 speed zf, crew short bed (or at minimum extended cab).

On my bucket list to build one day....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mistifier said:


> U could only get a cat or cummins in the 450 and up in the earlier yrs and they are pretty rare. I think it ended '05 to '08


The only way to get a Cummings in a F450/550 is to destroke it. Never heard of anyone doing that with a Cat.

You had to get a 650 or 750 to get a Cummings or Cat and Allison.

PS If you have big bucks, you can destroke a Furd AND get the Allison from a Chebbie in it. Big bucks.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> Do you really need to go faster than 12 mph in reverse?


You serious Clark?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> I asked a transmission guru one day about trucks and the reverse gear. From what I understood he told me that it has a lot to do with the base 1st gear of the vehicle you are driving, and the gear ratio for the weight of that vehicle. The reasoning behind this is every vehicle needs to be able to back up a steep incline at max load Without needing to redline the engine.
> For a comparison, an Audi S5 does 15 mph top speed in reverse.
> Although I doubt I could handle 4L plowing in anything, I agree you don't need to be at the top speed in reverse when plowing.


I was under the impression that 1st gear and R are the same gear ratio.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ford King Ranch F350 CC SB
Cummings 12v
Allison

I had everything but the Allison. 

Mild upgrades on the 12v, that thing would push a mountain of snow at just over an idle. I'm dead serious. 

My 6.7 is aboot the same now. Losing the emissions crap and tuning it has given it a lot more low end that was missing compared to the 12v. Has amazing mid and high end. Have yet to plow with it, hopefully tonight.


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## PLOWMAN45 (Jul 2, 2003)

well i wont be pulling a sled


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I did a service to a 2015 Dodge Cummins today. It is nice and quiet. I didn't like the dash. It was a 5500. I'm old, I like a standard set of gauges.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> I did a service to a 2015 Dodge Cummins today. It is nice and quiet. I didn't like the dash. It was a 5500. I'm old, I like a standard set of gauges.


Digital dash ?

Not like this ?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Yup, I personally don't like it. Can you punch up different gauges, like oil pressure, engine temp.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Randall Ave said:


> Yup, I personally don't like it. Can you punch up different gauges, like oil pressure, engine temp.


That's my go to screen. It displays coolant temp, trans temp, oil temp, and oil pressure. I kinda like the digital readout so you can see the exact numbers. But I can see why you don't like them. Took a while to get used to it.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Ford King Ranch F350 CC SB
> Cummings 12v
> Allison
> 
> ...


Glad to hear the delete and tune worked outThumbs Up


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Digital dash ?
> 
> Not like this ?
> 
> View attachment 170267


Doesn't look like that


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

This is mine. They also make a fully digital dash in the higher trim trucks. Those look cool but might be hard on the eyes, not sure


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

How do you change the display


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Randall Ave said:


> How do you change the display


With the buttons on the steering wheel.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Arrow buttons on the left side of the wheel control the display.


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## Mistifier (Aug 21, 2016)

Philbilly2 said:


> Do you really need to go faster than 12 mph in reverse?


I can think of the last time I backed up more than 10 truck lengths UNDER 12mph


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## Mistifier (Aug 21, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Ford King Ranch F350 CC SB
> Cummings 12v
> Allison
> 
> ...


Mark, how does the 6.7 mpg compare to the 12V?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mistifier said:


> Mark, how does the 6.7 mpg compare to the 12V?


Hard to remember, but I think the 12v was actually doing better.

Haven't towed with the deleted 6.7 yet. With the emissions it was about the same. But a lot more mid and top end than the 12v.


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## Mistifier (Aug 21, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hard to remember, but I think the 12v was actually doing better.
> 
> Haven't towed with the deleted 6.7 yet. With the emissions it was about the same. But a lot more mid and top end than the 12v.


My buddy bought a '16 and was getting 12. Deleted he can reach 19-19.5 on the highway


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mistifier said:


> I can think of the last time I backed up more than 10 truck lengths UNDER 12mph


Ah... ok...

What?


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