# Not working for nationals, where do you pickup the accounts?



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

I know how much Michael loves the threads about nationals, nothing good to say about them. This isn't about why we won't work for them, but instead, the option not to and how to compete against them?

No matter your snow plowing force size, one man trucks or very large companies with dozens of crews and millions in equipment, you can work for them and their accounts and you can elect not to. 

We've worked for just about all of them for nearly 10 years, and in the last 5-6 have worked with less and less. In previous seasons, "even when i knew i didn't want to work with some of them", elected to take accounts due to the capacity they had, not anything more. It would be time intensive, and usually lots of dead ends, going around, finding property managers, companies/businesses etc. that need our snow plowing service "usually all of them", but most won't even give a return phone call or email. It was all too easy to accept a lesser amount of money and take on a dozen small sites or a few larger sites with one company. 

I wouldn't even want to entertain picking up ONE storage complex directly, or ONE CVS directly etc. Unless it paid a ton more, which we ironically had one CVS for about 4 years from 2008-2012 that paid nearly double what we were paid for the same size lots with a management company. Yet due to the amount of business, i would have still traded it for doing 6+ of the same sites for a national. Its volume, and in the end helped the bottom line and profits. 

Fast forward to last season, we only had the end of a couple 3yr term contracts through two nationals, which went soso for the first two years with the management company, but then totally fell apart upon the final year, IE: non payment in full by the management company. The one large account we handled, flawlessly nearly, would have resigned us, but they likely knew they were not going to get the bid on the account again, and did lose it. Its nearly a 2m sq ft complex site. Even if they did get it, they owe so much for the prior 3 years, 55-60% of that being from this past "poor" NJ season alone, we would decline any further contracts with them.

The company with this large site has 4, 3 of which are NO where near us and too large for us to juggle sub contracting out even if i wanted to get into that. They hired another company, of which i don't know who it is even this late in the game, almost thanksgiving.

We continuously lose accounts we once had "the few" good ones, to managment companies, and the ones we bid on directly, those with 12/20/40 sites etc. I either have to decline because they essentially "COPIED" a National's prior years contract terms, IE: going from 3 page contract to a 23 page contract in one season, OR we are somehow OUTBID by the national. 

What floors me, is that if we've worked for TWO nationals for 2-3 seasons straight doing the same 20+ accounts, and then skip one year, bid the 4th season directly, i know our bid per site ends up being NO MORE than 5-10% MORE than either of the previous two nationals that paid that amount to us.

So if we were paid $275 for a deice and $245 per push 2-4" , our bid would be $290 per deice "3yrs later" and $255-260 per push. They don't use us for any of the 20 sites, but hire now, a local management company, who in turn calls us with "their" pricing 3 weeks later. They offer us 55-70% of what our bid was, so they're either outbidding us by a large margin like 30-40% OR are offering so little with the hope they'll make 30-50% as the middleman or both. 

This has happened across the board though, large sites, small sites etc. It seems these days in NJ, where everything is expensive, you almost can't plow commercially directly anymore, even with the capacity to take sites in 2-3 counties and dedicate numerous trucks and equipment or resources to their sites.

We picked up only two accounts in the last month that are new, a church, and an industrial park, one is 70k sq and 90k sq total. Both can be done with mid-range priority and both will close with any large accumulation storm too. These arn't the sites that are open 24/7 where they need salt 7x a day during storms, machines on site, crews etc. These can be done by sending one half ton truck out with a helper to run a snowblower for a half hour.

Mind you, i set my time to replace the 2m sq ft site which requires a truck at full time, a sidewalk crew of 7-8 guys operating small tractors, snow blowers and some shoveling, 3 skid steers and a 3yd loader.

I turn down immediately at least half of the calls that come in "the few" for snow, because well some are residential, but the rest are such small sites/commercial driveways/8 car parking lots etc. They just won't pay our minimums set of $125 per deice for travel time/salt/liability/etc. or the $100+ per push even if it only takes 5 minutes. I don't want to gouge them with a $1k invoice when i know they'll find joe blow for $100 per storm total, and they will.

I've still reviewed about 9 major contracts with 4 nationals this season, none of which we could/would sign, but attempted none the less by trying to force them to remove parts of their own contract, and in the last 2 seasons, they've stiffened up and will not modify these terrible contracts one bit. We waste a lot of time and nothing is gained.

We used to have almost two full pages of sites, truck routes, crew information, 30-60 sites and many large ones in those between 2009-2014. Our insurance is about 10-12x what it was in 2008/2009 season. Slip and falls in NJ are rampant, even through no fault of your own. 

We now have 7 sites, all of which "if in the same area" could be done by 1 truck. Because they're accounts we've had for years, are spread out over multiple towns, i literally have to have 2-3 drivers come in plus myself to go out in 3-4 trucks to plow 7 sites, all taking only maybe an hour of plowing total each truck ,but 1-2hrs total of driving in the snow to get there. 

We have 11 trucks all outfitted to plow and with salt spreaders from tailgate, which we havn't had to use in years to 2 and 4 and 4.5 yard electric units. We have still after i've sold many in the last 2 seasons, 14 plows that serve as some backups as well if something happened to one. We have all newer equipment 2009-2014, a tractor, 3yd loader, multiple push boxes, 7 skid steer/track loaders and still two guys that can and will sub contract for me plowing as much as i need them with newer trucks/plows. 

Last two seasons, we havn't even made our gross billing total of what our insurance was paid up for, so we paid even a HIGHER percentage in the end, none of which they'll refund you if you don't meet that amount. Last year we paid for about $75,000 of insurance we didn't bill anything against. 

Short of sleeping with the owner of a management company to steal all their accounts or buyout their business to take the accounts, what on earth would one do to gain local snow business accounts? I've spoken to others in our position in NJ, some much larger and some much smaller, seems all are in a similar boat except the little joe blow with 1-2 trucks, is rarely affected, because gaining a couple small accounts for him ties up his schedule and that's all they can handle again. 

I'd really like to hear from some of you who manage at least dozens of accounts directly, or large accounts or those who shifted away from management companies and gained back enough accounts on their own another way. Feel free to critique, been in this business a while now and yet i know some others have far more long term experience in market shifts.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

we're not going to have another national bashing thread so if that's your plan then I'll remove it.

thanks,
Mike


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

I know its a lot to read, but its not about the nationals. I want to know how companies have gained local accounts directly while not taking on national contracts. We all know why no one likes them already and why no companies continue to work for them.


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## redclifford (Aug 10, 2015)

seriously? did you even read his post?


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## Ford.crazy (Jun 19, 2012)

I've been wondering the same thing. Maybe someone can shed more light on how to get them. I have a few commercial lots, got them by banging on door and cold calling. It seems like every year they are getting harder to find and keep.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm a relatively small operation,(26 accounts)but that's by design. I'm in sw ct so similar to your area.I've avoided the bigger is better operation.There are hundreds of "national accounts "in my city.I avoid them all.I lost my biggest account to a national last year.I concentrate on small to medium size accounts.80% of my accounts I've had for 10 to 20 years.I run a yellow page ad along with web listing.I bid high,seem to get accounts anyway.I try to appeal to quality of service over price.I handle daycares ,dr offices, warehouses,strip malls etc.I try to keep overhead low.I employ the "if I can't put my hands on your neck "I won't work for you routine.I never fall into the volume game.I run tight routes(10 mile or so) Its worked quite well for 25 years.Gone from one truck to a high of 7.Seems like I end up with the same amount in my pocket regardless of the amount of accounts! Its become quite a challenging business.I wish there was a simple answer.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

In 3 years weve gone from 5 accounts to over 20. Some of our new accounts come from word of mouth and others is just about getting in with the right people. We always do a 100% job and word gets around fast.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

redclifford said:


> seriously? did you even read his post?


Have you read any of Ram's other posts?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Whether you say you can or you can't you're right. 

Ram, obviously at this point you need to rethink your business strategy. Did you ever consider that maybe your minimums are too high? Your overhead is too high? Maybe you don't know how to price jobs or complete them efficiently?

I don't know how many accounts I have outside of residentials. I don't keep track, never have. Worked for 2 nationals in the past 4 years, the property owner took it back in house this year. I had a feeling it would happen, that's why I stuck it out. I worked for Viox or whatever they're called now, but gave up on them since it was all about price and no loyalty or worrying about quality.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Ram, obviously at this point you need to rethink your business strategy. Did you ever consider that maybe your minimums are too high? Your overhead is too high? Maybe you don't know how to price jobs or complete them efficiently?
> .


Bingo. Right on the head.

I typed this same thing 3 times on my computer yesterday and kept just deleting it as I know the same bs should follow as it does every time I tell someone they need to restructure. "Race to the bottom" "why should he have to" "why become the lowballer" that bs.

It is simple math... you want to find the quickest way to the bottom... have more overhead than your company can invoice for... that is a race to the bottom... fast!

I read your whole post 3 times yesterday as I kept thinking I was missing something somewhere. Sounds like you had a bunch of accounts back in the day, now you don't, but you are still running your show like you and need all that overhead, but you don't have the work to cover that overhead. If you cut the unneeded overhead, it might allow you to get your bottom line to a point that you can compete.

Some of you have never been there, some of you have. When you reach the point that you are trying to figure out how to sell enough stuff to stay in your house another month, you will understand... took it to that before it got threw my thick head, did a complete restructuring, came back to become bigger than before, just in a different market.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> Bingo. Right on the head.
> 
> I typed this same thing 3 times on my computer yesterday and kept just deleting it as I know the same bs should follow as it does every time I tell someone they need to restructure. "Race to the bottom" "why should he have to" "why become the lowballer" that bs.
> 
> ...


Bravo! Done that been there. Not so sure I'm going to keep all these loaders, Time to rethink.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

One other thing, the day and age of automatic price increases year to year is over and has been for quite some time. 

I don't like it, you might not like it, but it is what it is.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> It is simple math... you want to find the quickest way to the bottom... have more overhead than your company can invoice for... that is a race to the bottom... fast!


I like that way of stating it. I don't like that either, but facts are facts and accounting is accounting. As my accounting prof liked to say if your expenses exceed your assets, your assets in jail.

Maybe it just took longer to hit your area of Jersey than other parts of the country, as prices started going down here back in '07-'08. They started to come back up after '13-'14, were good last year yet and are going back down again. NSP or in-house.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

I'm not going to read it, its longer than a National's contract.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I'm not going to read it, its longer than a National's contract.


Woke up at 2:20, couldn't get back to sleep so I finally got up and went to work.


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## redclifford (Aug 10, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Have you read any of Ram's other posts?


Mark I understand what your saying aboot his other post in the past. I don't agree with assuming before taking a minute(or 2) to read


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

There comes a time for every business owner when they have to check their ego and decide "Is this right for my business?" 
By the time you get to that, you should already have been thinking of the alternative and solution and have a direction.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

leigh said:


> I'm a relatively small operation,(26 accounts)but that's by design. I'm in sw ct so similar to your area.I've avoided the bigger is better operation.There are hundreds of "national accounts "in my city.I avoid them all.I lost my biggest account to a national last year.I concentrate on small to medium size accounts.80% of my accounts I've had for 10 to 20 years.I run a yellow page ad along with web listing.I bid high,seem to get accounts anyway.I try to appeal to quality of service over price.I handle daycares ,dr offices, warehouses,strip malls etc.I try to keep overhead low.I employ the "if I can't put my hands on your neck "I won't work for you routine.I never fall into the volume game.I run tight routes(10 mile or so) Its worked quite well for 25 years.Gone from one truck to a high of 7.Seems like I end up with the same amount in my pocket regardless of the amount of accounts! Its become quite a challenging business.I wish there was a simple answer.


understood, It seems everything "national or not" has gone from at least SOME concern over quality and reputation or at least "reliability" to that they could care less... so our moto of superior reliability and at minimum a good/great service with few issues in between, has no competitive market here. I held on to accounts for 2-3 seasons that started out OK, but then things would happen beyond our control such as the property owner claiming we didnt plow the lot fully, sent truck back, they plow more. Come to find out, we're now not plowing HALF of the warehouse small building, he is trying to get us to plow portions we are not contracted for. Eventually once i found out how much our company was doing of this property, i went back to our diagram and saw what they signed off on and we were doing 2x the sidewalks/parking lots for $225/push and $250/deice, it went from profitable to a loss each time. The owner disputed that we were still wrong anyway so we gave them 2 weeks to find another contractor, they had one two days later anyway. Apparently its the same company now 3 years later, white 03 Ford F250, old meyer plow, old salt spreader, no names or anything on the side, i'm sure they got a deal!

It sounds like you have a good mix of accounts. We've done a couple daycares for 8 years now, did a few others on and off because they'd never contract to us directly. After a year or two, its just finger pointing at who is doing what for how much.

I agree, if you operate 1 truck, even 2, you can make a good profit margin yourself or if you have someone in your family or real Trustworthy to drive too, soon as you go to 3-4 trucks, now you're running crews of guys and you start to have the problems with employees, lack of experience and the guys that supposedly know as much as you do, you realize you were smarter your FIRST year plowing than they are now currently.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I like that way of stating it. I don't like that either, but facts are facts and accounting is accounting. As my accounting prof liked to say if your expenses exceed your assets, your assets in jail.
> 
> Maybe it just took longer to hit your area of Jersey than other parts of the country, as prices started going down here back in '07-'08. They started to come back up after '13-'14, were good last year yet and are going back down again. NSP or in-house.


Maybe. NJ hasn't gone up or down in pricing really, NSPs have gone down for sure in the last 10 even 5 or 2 years. Heck we used to get $50-70/yd to apply mulch depending on location from an NSP, it was great work, we'd knock out 30-40 a day depending on size of each location we were at. Mulch was $15-25/yd. No weeding/prep etc, just literally putting it down in 07-2010, then it was $40 a yard and now we bid $45 a yard ourself direct and don't get accounts for HOAs etc. Someone comes in at $35/38/40 etc.

Our expenses have always been high. NJ insurance rates, just even for commercial auto are extreme, compounded with the issue of ANY driver with a ticket, suspension/accident in last 3-5 years can't drive on your policy... last 3 seasons its been a serious struggle finding guys who can drive with a clear license AND experience to plow snow, i mean nearly impossible, to the point i have trucks sitting because i can't employ an extra few drivers.

We've done less and less landscape/maint/lawn work each year... hurts income all spring/summer/fall.

Our biggest expenses are

1. Equipment payments, which by now, nearly all is paid off, however from 2009-current, we've added a lot of equipment, machines, plows, spreaders, push boxes etc./trucks/trailers etc. 
2. Insurance, avg $2000-2700 PER truck, additional for drivers, still cant get most on the policies. Snow insurance is 12-16% of your GROSS.
so you invoice $100k in snow = $12,000-16,000 paid up front in nov.
$200k in snow = $24,000- 32,000
$500k in snow = $60,000 - $80,000
Thats if you pay in full up front and don't have prior claims, yet most all companies in NJ in these categories HAVE multiples. I had to attend 3 depositions just this year, from jan-feb 2014 slip and fall claims still!. We've had years with 0 claims and others with 6 from ONE site "walmart", case in point never plow them. Our insurance is more than the 16% though until this past season, we were up over 20% for 3 seasons , now back to about 14%. 
Workers comp insurance in NJ is 7% lawn mowing, 16% landscaping work, 21% tree work/chipper/chainsaws etc, and 14% snow.
so you have $70k in payroll for a few months in the winter time? $9800 for that policy that excludes yourself.
3. Repairs/Upgrades/modifications, repairs is biggest for snow work, especially the crazy seasons that never let up, but billable is up so its a wash usually.

I agree my overhead is too high. Last year we bid a site directly, it was a 140k site, i could leave a machine there, salt pile and two 32" snow blowers. I was outbid by a company that dropped off a 2000 ish bobcat looked like it went to hell and back with a "home made" black 8' pusher", no salt on site "not that its needed" and had a 96 ish Chevy white 2500 truck plow it, saw him a few times there over the winter.

His overhead is literally non existent except his insurance maybe. 
We would have had a 2007-2015 year F550 come in to tidy up and for salting with a $7000-10,000 salt spreader, truck that costs 8-20x more than his truck, and our lowest valued JD skid steer is probably $35k? with a newer $3000 push box. On paper i have to make 2x what he does or more.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> One other thing, the day and age of automatic price increases year to year is over and has been for quite some time.
> 
> I don't like it, you might not like it, but it is what it is.


Let me clarify, i don't anticipate automatic increases. Our own accounts, some we've had for years, have only had ONE increase in all the years recently of about 5-10%, smaller accounts. An account that paid $1,700 for deice 3 years ago, now is paying $1,500 because an NSP billed them that for the last two years, i can only imagine someone deiced for $1200-1300 for them to make $200 per service? I just don't expect it to go down in NJ, if insurance stayed the same, possibly, but not with how hard it is to even get the insurance. Some companies have been FLAT OUT DENIED, they go out of business because they need insurance to plow $400k worth of sites.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Philbilly2 said:


> I read your whole post 3 times yesterday as I kept thinking I was missing something somewhere. Sounds like you had a bunch of accounts back in the day, now you don't, but you are still running your show like you and need all that overhead, but you don't have the work to cover that overhead. If you cut the unneeded overhead, it might allow you to get your bottom line to a point that you can compete.
> 
> Some of you have never been there, some of you have. When you reach the point that you are trying to figure out how to sell enough stuff to stay in your house another month, you will understand... took it to that before it got threw my thick head, did a complete restructuring, came back to become bigger than before, just in a different market.


correct, but short of selling equipment/trucks/plows etc. or simply things only related or used for snow, the overhead's 2nd largest expense is insurance. We literally carry every insurance required just to do snow, when any other work we do "except snow" would ONLY require commercial auto and, well hell not even the GL policy really but its not expensive per year, maybe $3k. The trucks insurance as well, they mostly all sit all year except randomly used. Our policy allows us to plow snow, even though they don't cover snow operations, its MORE $ per year per truck because we use them to do snow services. Electing to remove that part, we'd probably shave off some costs.

The whole business is too much of a swing. You can possibly bill "if you have the trucks/equipment and capacity", say $1m one season and the next, $100k, maybe the 1m you have money pouring out of your eyes and can pay down your mortgage, buy 4 new trucks etc.. but if you need 200k just in expenses/payroll/repairs/insurance/overhead per year, then you might go under with one bad season. We've now had 2 bad years in a row, 2 years ago was about break even, last season we had one blizzard in nj for 24", without that, i wouldn't even be on here talking about these issues as we made 90% of our season's money in that 6 day span from that storm and cleanup/hourly work.

Part of my overhead issues, admittedly so are equipment payments from the "great" season of the non stop year of 2013-2014. It started snow but our guys and myself lived in the trucks and machines for almost 2 months it seemed in jan/feb/march 2014. Instead of blowing through the profit we had from that season, i put down good amounts on john deeres 2013 and 2014 models, one truck "in the signature", more plows/newer spreaders, 2 trailers etc. The monthly payments seemed miniscule compared to our normal income, but come crunch time or seasons where you make $10k in profit instead of $150k, those thousands per month almost turn you inside out, while all that equipment sits unused mostly. three years later now almost, its almost all paid off, but its taken its toll since early 2014. I now have a lot of newer equipment/tools/trucks etc. and nothing to use them for related to snow accounts.


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

Sounds like you're the problem. You just admitted trying to use your beat winter ever as a baseline for your winter revenue. Bad idea. You just admitted to making large payments for equipment that has no purpose. Bad idea. Sell that surplus. Guessing you did alright when things were easy. Now that they're not, you're in a pinch. It's alright, not everyone is cut out to successfully run a business.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Maclawnco said:


> Sounds like you're the problem. You just admitted trying to use your beat winter ever as a baseline for your winter revenue. Bad idea. You just admitted to making large payments for equipment that has no purpose. Bad idea. Sell that surplus. Guessing you did alright when things were easy. Now that they're not, you're in a pinch. It's alright, not everyone is cut out to successfully run a business.


We've used all the trucks and equipment year after year, and usually always need one more of something to do it correctly or have a backup for something that breaks, its redundancy in this business. The pinch isn't the poor snow year, although it hurts for sure, the issue was less accounts 2014/2015 and then even lesser in 15/16 and now way less than before not having 3 very large accounts we had for years prior. Don't get me wrong, i probably spent too much money and financed too much from the 2014 season, however, its more the 36 months of payments that ate away at income more than anything i put down onto anything we purchased that season. Hell we bought 4 plows and 2 salt spreaders that same season mid-year just to replace units that broke that were waiting on parts and repairs. it was the right decision then, would still be now if we had the accounts to use them all on.

I realize there are good and poor decisions made all the time, lets not derail here from the root of the topic of gaining accounts "larger accounts" without NSPs in the middle.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Here is another option. It's probably one you won't want to consider but it is an option. Move your business outside of New Jersey. Move on to a state that is more business friendly. It would be hard but it sounds like you have the experience to scale a business. From what I've read on here I can't figure out why anyone would have a business in that state. You have 49 other options to choose from.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

redclifford said:


> Mark I understand what your saying aboot his other post in the past. I don't agree with assuming before taking a minute(or 2) to read


It's called "heading it oof at the pass."


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I only read to your last post, but the problem here is self inflicted. Don't buy **** you don't need, and then you don't have to make payments with money you don't have. 

You knew the condition of the horse 5 years ago when you bought it and chose to continue snow work. Don't ***** about insurance now. 

Doesn't sound like NJ and you are meant to be together in the snow removal industry.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Freak, I'm not going to read your rambling posts, but one thing I noticed skimming through them is a change in the story.

Initially you say you have equipment that isn't being used. Then you say you have been using it. It's one or the other.



Maclawnco said:


> Sounds like you're the problem. You just admitted trying to use your beat winter ever as a baseline for your winter revenue. Bad idea. You just admitted to making large payments for equipment that has no purpose. Bad idea. Sell that surplus. Guessing you did alright when things were easy. Now that they're not, you're in a pinch. It's alright, not everyone is cut out to successfully run a business.


Amen and amen. If you're basing your equipment lineup on a record year, or continue to purchase equipment year after year after year to keep working for NSP's who you constantly complained aboot, YOU are the problem. You've overextended yourself.

Listen to Mac, sell stuff that isn't being used. It's only costing you money, even if it's just sitting.

There's a difference between running a business and managing it. Up until now, you've been running it. Now it is time to manage it.

BTW, I am fully aware that insurance as well as cost of living is higher in Jersey. Found that oot aroond 2000 talking to some folks from Jersey.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Regarding equipment sitting aroond. Over the past couple years I have been purging unused, underused and crap that cost too much to operate. Much of it was stuff that had paid for itself years ago. A couple pushers, I had 4 and was using 2. Those actually didn't cost me anything, but still. But I just had too much crap sitting aroond for the revenue we were generating. 

The worst part aboot where you are, is you're probably going to have to accept the fact that you're going to have to take work at cost to keep the doors open until you can turn it aroond. If you want to turn it aroond.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

If'n I were in his shoes, I'd be tickled to death to work at cost for a season or two until I could sell some stuff to help offset the negative cash flow he has.

Working at cost sounds like it's about the best option of the ugly options there are.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ktfbgb said:


> Here is another option. It's probably one you won't want to consider but it is an option. Move your business outside of New Jersey. Move on to a state that is more business friendly. It would be hard but it sounds like you have the experience to scale a business. From what I've read on here I can't figure out why anyone would have a business in that state. You have 49 other options to choose from.


Agreed, and its in my long term/short term plans, like 3-5 years. Ive decided i'm moving to michigan when things are stable again in NJ. I'm going to move in next to Mark O out there! All kidding aside, its a terrible state.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

If I had to pack up and move my business, I'm pretty sure Michigan wouldn't be on the short list of locations.

Retirement, yep, I'll go to Traverse City for sure.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

I think you Need to rethink what a good customer is. I'm looking at these nsp and I don't think anyone has become a success with them. They all talk a mean story but ultimately fail after a couple years. The only ones who are making money are the lawyer s. So why you are deciding to compete against them seems like a fool's dream, you know what the result is. 
It seems like you have a start with the childcare centers. Bottom line they all have to be open for business at 6am so you are somewhat constricted as to how many centers you can do with one truck. School bus parking lots could also be targets. There is probably 200 child care centers in your county. Sewer treatment plants are there too

Other possible things are, cell phone towers need service people to get to them. Solar panel farms and wind turbine also need technicians to get to their sites. Funeral homes not only need people to do their lots but they also need plows to go out and plow the way to pick up clients(bodies) at homes. Maybe uber has special rates for picking up doctors, nurses, lawyers
Or you can hire a out work nsp salesman, they know all the buzz words and selling points. Beauty to these guys is they don't cost you anything till they sell something


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

NSPs cant be the only reason youve lost accounts...can it? What you need to find is a couple of seasonal properties that can get you through the lean years.


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## Snow-killer (Jan 4, 2016)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Maybe. NJ hasn't gone up or down in pricing really, NSPs have gone down for sure in the last 10 even 5 or 2 years. Heck we used to get $50-70/yd to apply mulch depending on location from an NSP, it was great work, we'd knock out 30-40 a day depending on size of each location we were at. Mulch was $15-25/yd. No weeding/prep etc, just literally putting it down in 07-2010, then it was $40 a yard and now we bid $45 a yard ourself direct and don't get accounts for HOAs etc. Someone comes in at $35/38/40 etc.
> 
> Our expenses have always been high. NJ insurance rates, just even for commercial auto are extreme, compounded with the issue of ANY driver with a ticket, suspension/accident in last 3-5 years can't drive on your policy... last 3 seasons its been a serious struggle finding guys who can drive with a clear license AND experience to plow snow, i mean nearly impossible, to the point i have trucks sitting because i can't employ an extra few drivers.
> 
> ...


"THATS YOUR FAULT" New equipment is NOT the key, Maintained is. If you want to go out every few years and dig yourself into debt buying new trucks loaders etc. you can not be mad at other guys who maintain theirs. My truck is a 01 it is laid out! i have a condo complex with 8 streets and 125 driveways, about 400' of sidewalk + car dealarship 2 storage units, some offices and res. all on my own! in a truck I own 100% NO DEBT an you want me to feel guilty because you have a massive amount of over head? who's fault is that?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Get rid of the baggage- equipment paid for or not, Restructure you can always purchase if your snow biz comes back, I try to base the majority of my earnings on my summer operations. For me snow is just a bone, The work comes and goes, You could be outbid or just no snow for the season, 

Last year I had a seasonal that was earning $7k per month. We had a total of 5'' of snow. They made 3 payments and sent me down the road. They claimed my safety performance was not up to there standards. I had to loaders dedicated to this site one i used and another for back up. Talked with my Lawyer and asked me if I could show a loss. How do you show a loss when you only plowed one time and salted a couple of times. 

Good luck


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Snow-killer said:


> "THATS YOUR FAULT" New equipment is NOT the key, Maintained is. If you want to go out every few years and dig yourself into debt buying new trucks loaders etc. you can not be mad at other guys who maintain theirs. My truck is a 01 it is laid out! i have a condo complex with 8 streets and 125 driveways, about 400' of sidewalk + car dealarship 2 storage units, some offices and res. all on my own! in a truck I own 100% NO DEBT an you want me to feel guilty because you have a massive amount of over head? who's fault is that?


Some guys don't understand how debt has on the effect on your biz. I seen plenty of Contractors over the years that build a nice biz and go down because they are over extended. The bottom line, None of us can spend more than whats coming in. You need a cushion. Just because you have a couple of good years you don't pay your Mortgage off and spend like crazy on new toys for the biz. I'm not out there to impress nobody with new toys. Your performance is what counts. If people are judging you because everything is not new you don't need them.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

I appreciate all of the comments, hard to take or not, the variation of opinions means something. Some are just missing the point, the issue is not only, financial mis management or bought too many new trucks/equipment etc. or had a slow year, its the gaps not being able to be filled by ELECTING to not take on NSP work. I never said we lost the work as in, joe blows NSP fired us from 20 accounts overnight, or after a season, and then the same thing the next year, we have been electing to NOT do this work more and more and eventually last year, only had two accounts through an NSP, and this year none. The issue is it seems at this point, we're so far away from re-filling those spots once taken by an NSP account, being a tiny $100 deice account or large retail/shopping center etc. We've worked for some smaller contractors who subbed the account to us, and not being an NSP worked out fine, even if it wasn't OUR account DIRECTLY. 

For the guys running snow services that involve say 6+ trucks and 6+ pieces of equipment, and do at least 20+ sites and have a mix of some smaller sites and still do some large sites in the 250k-1m sq ft range, if you did 100% of them through one NSP last year, and this year won't work for them, how would you make up that amount of accounts? 

For 3-4 years now, i've gone out to talk with companies local to gain business... but to get to the point of actually SIGNING the account for the next season is about 2-3%, its not handing out flyers for your $10 lawn mower business and easily picking up another 5-6 accounts in a week, you can spend a TON of hours trying to contact the right people and still not land one single new account or even get to put a bid in on a property in NJ. I wouldn't feel so bad, or could focus more on our actual bids, if i bid 100 sites and only got 2, and were here asking, how can i pickup 4 more of the bids, but we literally have problems just getting in touch with the person for these buildings that accepts the bid to submit.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

It sounds to me like there is more supply than demand in your area. And also that the NSP's have a strangle hold on a lot of the opportunity. I literally have my accounts fall in my lap. I have to turn customers away because I can't handle the volume. It's not because I'm special, or super good at selling work. It's because we have more demand than there is supply. Or should I say there is more demand than there is supply of quality competent contractors to go around. Is there competition? Absolutely but most of them are incompetent. It's a good environment to work in. I'm not bragging or anything just getting back to my earlier post about the environment you working in. I would be looking hard at relocating to a more business friendly environment. I wish I had something else to offer but it just sounds like a horrible environment to own a business in.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ktfbgb said:


> It sounds to me like there is more supply than demand in your area. And also that the NSP's have a strangle hold on a lot of the opportunity. I literally have my accounts fall in my lap. I have to turn customers away because I can't handle the volume. It's not because I'm special, or super good at selling work. It's because we have more demand than there is supply. Or should I say there is more demand than there is supply of quality competent contractors to go around. Is there competition? Absolutely but most of them are incompetent. It's a good environment to work in. I'm not bragging or anything just getting back to my earlier post about the environment you working in. I would be looking hard at relocating to a more business friendly environment. I wish I had something else to offer but it just sounds like a horrible environment to own a business in.


Nice to hear its not the same everywhere. the NSPs have the majority of commercial work in NJ, especially retail and thats almost all of which we've done for years. There is way too much supply too, everyone has a plow on their truck now and wanting to "plow" for $100/hr with no insurance under some other company. From a management standpoint, i'd love to hire some "competent" ones too, but the WC insurance and snow insurance audits would be all over us like flies on #@$%#$. They assume you're not disclosing income when you're 100% by the book. The NSPs have caused everyone with a truck and some type of company to get enough insurance to plow something for them, and seems every year i see either new company names "one truck" plowing a large parking lot or literally no names on trucks plowing more often than other companies.

I've found companies that have been around longer than us, and involved in snow longer, have long term ties to some large clients, property managers etc. We started commercially in 2007, some were say 2000 and seems to have an anchor in some clients, great for them, bad for us. We've had our fair share of issues come up over the years in our own work, most minor, and fixable for the sites maintenance but these accounts these days could care less, corporate handles the nsp, the site manager has no say.

We started an account this past season, not a big account by any means, 100k sq roughly, industrial/commercial/partial retail, just a big mix of a bunch of odds and ends, body shop parks cars in the side lot, trailers parked on another side, 2 large maintenance shop doors on end of L shaped building, dumpers in 3 corners, royal PITA, our first storm was 1/22/16 and was 24" plus a lot of drifting. We OVER plowed the site, on a per storm account, and for doing the site the first time ever with 3 drivers and including myself and a couple laborers, we did a 95% job, i take the 5% off because they expected some gates/fences to be accessible but really only due to it being more than 1ft of snow... the owner told me "we did a pretty good job" , which sounds positive, but he said it so casually like he expected nothing less... meanwhile a local CVS has piles in half their lot, the local acme supermarket wasn't plowed until it already snowed 15+ hours and had about 15" of snow while people are stuck in the lot, gas stations still inaccessible, etc.

It was amazing we did as good as we did all considered, it takes that much to please most commercial clients though in NJ when working direct. Its hard to take pride in your work when its all so cutthroat over $10 per push or $20 for salt.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Snow-killer said:


> "THATS YOUR FAULT" New equipment is NOT the key, Maintained is. If you want to go out every few years and dig yourself into debt buying new trucks loaders etc. you can not be mad at other guys who maintain theirs. My truck is a 01 it is laid out! i have a condo complex with 8 streets and 125 driveways, about 400' of sidewalk + car dealarship 2 storage units, some offices and res. all on my own! in a truck I own 100% NO DEBT an you want me to feel guilty because you have a massive amount of over head? who's fault is that?


Wow! Really?? You do all these places with one truck?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

WIPensFan said:


> Wow! Really?? You do all these places with one truck?


Lol he is banned. He doesn't that many accounts either. I guarantee it. He got himself banned in like 24 hours, must be some kind of record lol


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

I thought the same, but who knows, ,maybe they're all right next to each other? The whole debt thing i wasn't really getting into because as a whole, we don't owe much on anything, its about 5-8% of our assets total. Everyone flips out and assumes you bought too much when you have one truck payment and a new skid steer... yes the payments are a lot monthly but its only a lot because there is little income from lack of accounts. When you bill out 100k a storm, those couple thousands don't add up to much, but when you have month after month of not a single billable service for snow, that hurts, and when you do bill, you're not billing 100k per storm, but 20k because you don't have all the accounts you once had.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ramair, maybe you just need to scale back quite a bit. The "Big" accounts aren't always the money makers. Quality of account not quantity. I'm not going to judge your business acuman, unlike some know it alls on this site, they must need to feel better about themselves. It's always the same guys, don't worry about it. Snow business has become very difficult over the past 10 yrs or so. At least you're getting away from NSP, thats a good start.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

WIPensFan said:


> Ramair, maybe you just need to scale back quite a bit. The "Big" accounts aren't always the money makers. Quality of account not quantity. I'm not going to judge your business acuman, unlike some know it alls on this site, they must need to feel better about themselves. It's always the same guys, don't worry about it. Snow business has become very difficult over the past 10 yrs or so. At least you're getting away from NSP, thats a good start.


I agree, although some of our largest accounts have made great profits, the small stuff, excluding travel if they're not close to other accounts, are better and little work and overhead is required.

Everyone for years on plowsite says, don't work for the nationals..

First you say, hah, they don't know what they're talking about, i have a good rep with some, and good standing with their staff... that staff gets fired/let go/ or they resign due to some unethical issues that eventually pop up.

So then you weigh weather or not its still worth it dealing with all the crap of an nsp... for a while it probably is, you still make money.

Then they lose the account, you go and sign with the next one, its worse, you don't get paid 100%, maybe 80% at best, now you're not making much, i've complained for years on plowsite about it... i try to make changes, seems to not happen. I swear i won't work for any, and year after year, we have to end up signing with at least one or two NSPs for sheer volume, because NOT signing with one, means we negate 10, 20, 30+ accounts, and often accounts we've already serviced prior and know how to do and our overheads on each.

Then you start factoring in the legal fees, before, during and after the account for collection... you will NOT make a profit, no matter how much you charge the account, especially in litigious NJ when you have that going on. Pretty much ANY account with an outstanding balance of 10k or less, which could be 2 months of their bill or 2 days worth, isn't work going after, you likely will spend more to get part of that $ here. It seems to be the nature of the game though, even the little companies, such as mom pop shops, liquor stores, small convenience that arn't corporate. One owed $8k after Dec/Jan and early Feb, they didnt pay, we stopped. Lawyer sued, they got a lawyer, they alleged we NEVER salted, i had a bunch of photos. Lawyer said we'd spend another $5k over the $4k already spent, just settle at $5k... so they saved $3k just by NOT paying our bill.

They hired two more contractors that same feb/march that season, no name on one truck, a small competitor in the other, i'm sure neither got paid. They always find someone.

For all those who say, just don't work for them. When you're one truck and did one Rite Aid pharmacy, sure thats easy, its 4% of your gross work... most of us do more work than that though.

Sure i can scale back, i have been for 3 seasons now, and need to much more, but i see competitor companies who are 1/3 the size, with 3 total trucks, and all 3 still out doing work while we barely have enough for 2-3 when we once had a major operation with tons of sites. Someone is filling our place for all these accounts, legal or not.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> I'm not going to judge your business acuman, unlike some know it alls on this site, they must need to feel better about themselves. It's always the same guys, don't worry about it.


So if he's making mistakes and asking for help, no one should point those mistakes out? Not everyone is as politically correct as you. Sorry snowflake.

Freak, it is the business model and the way you're running your business. Using your own words, you based a business model on working for NSP's and going after all the big name accounts. Now, after a few years of ramping up your overhead, equipment and manpower levels to service those NSP's and banging your head against the wall getting paid, you make the decision to not work with them. Basically in a year's time. If that's truly the direction you want to go, but your business model is working for them, you can't logically expect to do a 180 without some pain lower revenue and getting rid of equipment.

You say it isn't the equipment payments. It isn't too much equipment. It isn't this, it isn't that but other than WiPen, everyone is basically telling you the same thing. If you think the chances are that everyone but you and WiPen are wrong, keep on banging your head against the wall. You asked for advice, you don't like what you're hearing, so you try to ignore it say the problem isn't this or that which is what 99% of us are telling you.

As so many others have discovered when asking for advice here on PS and on LS, don't expect everyone to tell you what you want to hear. Life is hard. It's even harder if you don't want to take advice.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Then they lose the account, you go and sign with the next one, its worse, you don't get paid 100%, maybe 80% at best, now you're not making much, i've complained for years on plowsite about it... i try to make changes, seems to not happen. I swear i won't work for any, and year after year, we have to end up signing with at least one or two NSPs for sheer volume, because NOT signing with one, means we negate 10, 20, 30+ accounts, and often accounts we've already serviced prior and know how to do and our overheads on each.


Someone already said it: swallow your ego, because that is 100% of this paragraph.


Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Sure i can scale back, i have been for 3 seasons now, and need to much more, but i see competitor companies who are 1/3 the size, with 3 total trucks, and all 3 still out doing work while we barely have enough for 2-3 when we once had a major operation with tons of sites. Someone is filling our place for all these accounts, legal or not.


You claim to know your overhead and have all the equipment and manpower lined up, etc, but then someone else does the work with half or less of your equipment. Maybe you are using too much equipment???

Again, don't hate on those giving valid advice just because it doesn't agree with your worldview. If 99% of the people are telling you the same thing, it's unlikely they are the ones in the wrong.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Someone already said it: swallow your ego, because that is 100% of this paragraph.
> 
> You claim to know your overhead and have all the equipment and manpower lined up, etc, but then someone else does the work with half or less of your equipment. Maybe you are using too much equipment???
> 
> Again, don't hate on those giving valid advice just because it doesn't agree with your worldview. If 99% of the people are telling you the same thing, it's unlikely they are the ones in the wrong.


I actually feel bad for the guy. We all make mistakes, but losing work to guys that severely undercut your price? I wouldn't say that's his fault necessarily. It's just unfortunate that Landscaping and Snow Removal pricing has been a race to the bottom for a while now, with little regard for quality of work. You do however need to adjust quickly in order to stay in the game.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> I actually feel bad for the guy. We all make mistakes, but losing work to guys that severely undercut your price? I wouldn't say that's his fault necessarily. It's just unfortunate that Landscaping and Snow Removal pricing has been a race to the bottom for a while now, with little regard for quality of work. You do however need to adjust quickly in order to stay in the game.


I'd feel sorry for him as well if he hadn't spent the last 3-4 years complaining about every single NSP in the universe. He knew doggone well what he was getting into. He also couldn't\shouldn't have expected to stop all of a sudden stop working for NSP's then immediately replace all that work within 1 year.

The rest, I agree with completely. No one except the "good guys" care about the specs and actually follow the specs for the work. It sucks. But some of us have been in that position several years ago. Minus the NSP's and at least 4 years of complaining about how ridiculous they are. And their contracts. And their lack of payment. And all the BS that goes along with them.

Still, advice that has been provided is valid, whether you feel sorry for him or not. It might not be 100% his fault, but it isn't the NSP's or the customers', it is his inability to prepare for the changes, to recognize the changes and to adapt to a new way of doing business that is his fault.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'd feel sorry for him as well if he hadn't spent the last 3-4 years complaining about every single NSP in the universe. He knew doggone well what he was getting into. He also couldn't\shouldn't have expected to stop all of a sudden stop working for NSP's then immediately replace all that work within 1 year.
> 
> The rest, I agree with completely. No one except the "good guys" care about the specs and actually follow the specs for the work. It sucks. But some of us have been in that position several years ago. Minus the NSP's and at least 4 years of complaining about how ridiculous they are. And their contracts. And their lack of payment. And all the BS that goes along with them.
> 
> Still, advice that has been provided is valid, whether you feel sorry for him or not. It might not be 100% his fault, but it isn't the NSP's or the customers', it is his inability to prepare for the changes, to recognize the changes and to adapt to a new way of doing business that is his fault.


Probably all true... but although i've complained royally about NSPs for years, it wasn't because i just disliked them, i had no choice but to continue working for them. This isn't a new problem this season that we can't pickup the right or enough accounts , its been ongoing, and the fall back was taking nsp subbed accounts again, or more. I didn't want to, i damn knew most all the reasons not to even years ago now, but had no other choice. I assumed our name would be recognized eventually and even if we had to opt NOT to handle say a walgreens locally for a couple years to pass a non compete period, we could bid them directly afterwards.. instead they all still use NSPs, we know all the issues with that alone.

On that note, if anyone bids on accounts that NSPs bid on, and you were awarded the account of multiple sites, over an NSP bidding, what did you do to get that type of account, or is it even possible? Most corporate calls come back dead ends, they won't even return your call if your a landscape company. They want to hear "property management" and even at that, they probably like the fluff filled nsp websites. I essentially need to get our foot back in the doors of the commercial sector because working with all the nsps, essentially we never had our foot in any door with all the various clients anyway.

and just for the record, as blunt as some of you are, i don't take any of your opinions as a grain of salt... some are rough but may help make the necessary changes so we're not stuck in this mess much longer. I wish i knew someone locally, i was close to, as a mentor who could guide me because they have more experience... i don't know who that would be locally face to face. I'm relying on various opinions from multiple areas of the country, which all or some could provide some good info.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You claim to know your overhead and have all the equipment and manpower lined up, etc, but then someone else does the work with half or less of your equipment. Maybe you are using too much equipment???


Well if you had a 250k sq ft grocery store site, you damn well know you need a skid steer there with a box at least right? We're all on that same page? For years on and off, we have had the same site thats 250k sq ft say.... we always had a machine there, its always done 24/7 when its snowing to keep the lot clear. I mean you could keep a truck there full time too, but can't do as good of a job, because in the end, you have windrowed piles everywhere... when we're done its all at the far end away from the building, thats what "I" expect the site to look like, no matter how the overall quality of everything else is, thats just snow 101.

In 8 years there has been two other companies do the site, one for half a season after our NSP was terminated and another we finished the season. Both occasions, they truck plowed the lot. I'm sure its NOT because they think thats how to do it or that they can't use a machine there, but simply they lack the equipment. in 2016, having the equipment for the site isn't even a requirement anymore, even on contracts that dictate, no one is there to actually follow up to see that said company never put a machine on site.... and they truck plow it anyway. That companies overhead is LESS than ours now because they have no machine expense, but they're also not doing the same job.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

WIPensFan said:


> I actually feel bad for the guy. We all make mistakes, but losing work to guys that severely undercut your price? I wouldn't say that's his fault necessarily. It's just unfortunate that Landscaping and Snow Removal pricing has been a race to the bottom for a while now, with little regard for quality of work. You do however need to adjust quickly in order to stay in the game.


Thanks, its a combination of my own faults, not making enough or prompt changes to our model and also, even in NJ, it seems like every year, companies outbid each other pricing sites LOWER than prior years. I've seen a dozen bids this year already for larger sites, where i know what we were once paid 2, 4, 6 years ago under one NSP, now 25-40% less with another.

If we did the work for $300 a salt, $800 for a 6" storm plow under an nsp 5 years ago, we now need $450 for salt, $1250 for the same 6" storm plow , mainly due to insurance costs, but the next company wants to sub it out for $200/salt/$500 per 6" storm.. I honestly don't know what to do, i'm at a loss. Aside from how i run the company or what changes i make, I can't possibly ever make changes to perform the work from 5 years ago at a 30% reduction in pay.

Companies are taking the accounts though, we were going to bid on 8 grocery stores in 2 counties local, i've called them since early August, corporate/prop management office... i know BOTH of their names, i've left over a dozen messages from August-November, not once called back. I know its not because of our prior services for them over the years. I then find out two weeks ago, a local NSP got the account very recently, offers us way less than what we once did them for, when my bid direct would have been 15% higher than working under an nsp. Am i just spending my time with these dead end retail/corporate clients who contract NSPs and wasting it and should be focusing on another type of client? I don't know who they are... Who wants a reliable snow company, who has equipment to handle a site, redundancy in equipment/labor/reliability etc these days? Its always a fight over how few services they can get you to perform for the cheapest price because your insurance is liable in NJ.


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## dingybigfoot (Jun 12, 2008)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Well if you had a 250k sq ft grocery store site, you damn well know you need a skid steer there with a box at least right? We're all on that same page? For years on and off, we have had the same site thats 250k sq ft say.... we always had a machine there, its always done 24/7 when its snowing to keep the lot clear. I mean you could keep a truck there full time too, but can't do as good of a job, because in the end, you have windrowed piles everywhere... when we're done its all at the far end away from the building, thats what "I" expect the site to look like, no matter how the overall quality of everything else is, thats just snow 101.
> 
> In 8 years there has been two other companies do the site, one for half a season after our NSP was terminated and another we finished the season. Both occasions, they truck plowed the lot. I'm sure its NOT because they think thats how to do it or that they can't use a machine there, but simply they lack the equipment. in 2016, having the equipment for the site isn't even a requirement anymore, even on contracts that dictate, no one is there to actually follow up to see that said company never put a machine on site.... and they truck plow it anyway. That companies overhead is LESS than ours now because they have no machine expense, but they're also not doing the same job.


This is happening every year.


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> I assumed our name would be recognized eventually and even if we had to opt NOT to handle say a walgreens locally for a couple years to pass a non compete period, we could bid them directly afterwards.. instead they all still use NSPs, we know all the issues with that alone.


Not to keep hammering you. But. The above quote is where you're going wrong. If you're taking NSP work as a way to get a foot in the door with that particular client, that plan is never going to work.

Your last post asking "who" is your job. ID your ideal client and figure out how to get in touch with those decision makers.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Maclawnco said:


> Not to keep hammering you. But. The above quote is where you're going wrong. If you're taking NSP work as a way to get a foot in the door with that particular client, that plan is never going to work.
> 
> Your last post asking "who" is your job. ID your ideal client and figure out how to get in touch with those decision makers.


I agree, its taken a while for me to realize it was counter productive, if anything, it was blemishing our name/reputation because some clients looked at US as the ones who were not performing good work or that it was a bad reflection on us, because of how the NSP managed the work.

Our ideal clients, are retail, single or 2-3 unit retail centers with 250K+ sq ft of lot, transit centers with similar size lots, warehouse units , and then small clients such as storage complexes for the smaller trucks to do on route and small retail.

Grainger, some of you may know all over the US, built a 1m sq ft warehouse almost in my backyard in Bordentown, NJ last year, its just about fully completed now, its the largest warehouse in NJ now. I called to inquire who the builder was, what landscaping they'd require 3 years ago... now its the same deal with the snow, never in contact with the right decision maker with companies this large. We've been signed up with Grainger since March 2015 as a vendor too.

I'd rather not have 50 storage facilities and pharmacies, even if we did them all directly, but i'd take whatever i could if it was local enough. I'd rather have 10 sites that are 250k-600k sq ft each, and thats all


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Well if you had a 250k sq ft grocery store site, you damn well know you need a skid steer there with a box at least right? We're all on that same page? For years on and off, we have had the same site thats 250k sq ft say.... we always had a machine there, its always done 24/7 when its snowing to keep the lot clear. I mean you could keep a truck there full time too, but can't do as good of a job, because in the end, you have windrowed piles everywhere... when we're done its all at the far end away from the building, thats what "I" expect the site to look like, no matter how the overall quality of everything else is, thats just snow 101.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

That's not necessarily a true statement. It's true for your region. I'm not sure if I said it on this thread or a different thread but, snow operations vary drastically from region to region. I'm in the mountain southwest. We average 100" of snow a year, and our population in our town and surrounding county area is around 150,000 people. So it's a small city compared to back east, but it's not a one horse town either. There is a lot of large commercial here. I learned how to plow from the biggest snow removal company here. He had the one and only pusher box in town that he bought a couple years ago and to my knowledge he still has the only one. He used it a couple times that I know of. The dealers are carrying them now but I haven't seen any out yet. We plowed all the big box stores in town except the mall. We did both super Walmart, both Home Depot's, all the large grocery stores, Target etc. all done with plow trucks. He ran 7 skidsteer units on routes for the sidewalks for said stores, not a single one had a push box. We also never salt any lots here. Cinders are spread on large lots. The walks get ice melt if needed. The mall which has a parking area of like 15 or 20 acres or so, is done with trucks and a couple backhoes (without push boxes).

So like I said operations are different from place to place and I think assuming that ops are a rigid thing that require the same type of equipment just because it's always been done that way is dangerous to the adaptability of your business. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be using better equipment that would allow for more production in our area we just aren't yet. I think that will change soon since the dealers are stocking push boxes now. At least I hope. But I have learned a lot of things on this site about how things are done from region to region. Things that I never even heard of and assumed that the way we did it here was standard. I was wrong. So keeping an open mind to the idea of adaptability in order to survive is key and maybe adjusting the assumption of what you have to use in the way of equipment is a place to look.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ktfbgb said:


> That's not necessarily a true statement. It's true for your region. I'm not sure if I said it on this thread or a different thread but, snow operations vary drastically from region to region. I'm in the mountain southwest. We average 100" of snow a year, and our population in our town and surrounding county area is around 150,000 people. So it's a small city compared to back east, but it's not a one horse town either. There is a lot of large commercial here. I learned how to plow from the biggest snow removal company here. He had the one and only pusher box in town that he bought a couple years ago and to my knowledge he still has the only one. He used it a couple times that I know of. The dealers are carrying them now but I haven't seen any out yet. We plowed all the big box stores in town except the mall. We did both super Walmart, both Home Depot's, all the large grocery stores, Target etc. all done with plow trucks. He ran 7 skidsteer units on routes for the sidewalks for said stores, not a single one had a push box. We also never salt any lots here. Cinders are spread on large lots. The walks get ice melt if needed. The mall which has a parking area of like 15 or 20 acres or so, is done with trucks and a couple backhoes (without push boxes).
> 
> So like I said operations are different from place to place and I think assuming that ops are a rigid thing that require the same type of equipment just because it's always been done that way is dangerous to the adaptability of your business. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be using better equipment that would allow for more production in our area we just aren't yet. I think that will change soon since the dealers are stocking push boxes now. At least I hope. But I have learned a lot of things on this site about how things are done from region to region. Things that I never even heard of and assumed that the way we did it here was standard. I was wrong. So keeping an open mind to the idea of adaptability in order to survive is key and maybe adjusting the assumption of what you have to use in the way of equipment is a place to look.


Understood, and i agree, every region, city/state can vary greatly. If it wasn't for the insurance, risk of slip and fall suits, client expectations etc, i think you could plow the entire site with a $25/hr driver and an F150 hoenstly... thats far from reality in my area though. I try to always look at and compare what every other company does in their operations, big or small, do they use bigger/smaller equipment and is it helping them? Are they using more/less trucks, different plows, different or better salt spreaders etc? Usually i'm baffled mainly at the large companies who send out a 9 man crew to do what i know we can do with 3, or 4 trucks on a site that needs 1 GOOD plow driver, or 3 backhoes on a site that needs 2 skid steers that know what they're doing... but it goes full swing one way or the other, usually its companies using far TOO much equipment/labor than what i think can be used or sadly not nearly enough, like the case of a company with 11 sites in 2 counties they were going to plow with one f150, or another company that took 10 sites all over NJ, with a newer F550, which is a fine truck for the work, except its a rack/landscape light & cheaply built bed on the truck, and NO salt spreader for weight. They got stuck in an entrance for two hours while their guys shoveled out, they came back a day later AFTER the storm was done on a 2-4" per push account after getting 2 feet of snow.

I really wish, big or small, i could take another company owner in NJ out with me for a storm, and just critique anything about our operations or how they may do things differently, i seem to know all the guys who are amazed we own a skid steer let alone almost a dozen machines, its part of my ego like Mark says yes, and over the years rightfully so, but for years, we've been in a much different market/class/production level than the guy with one truck plowing himself on a few accounts in a snow storm.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

So my question then is this. And trust me I don't know the answer, just an outsiders perspective. In the market that you are in is there any room for a business to sell a million dollars or more of snow removal services? If the NSP have a strangle hold on the market maybe the days of snow removal companies operating on that scale are over? Is it truely realistic to think that it's possible to operate on that scale anymore without going through the NSP? The reality is that the NSP are controlling the market there, wether that is the right thing to be happing is irrelevant, at this point in time that's the way it is. 

So if that is the case, and it's not possible to operate on that scale anymore, in your target market of lots that are 250,000 square feet, then maybe you do need to change your target market. I understand that drive times affect production rates, but couldn't you theoretically sell the same amount of square footage services to smaller lots? There would just be more of them, and then obviously more sites is more stuff like accounting and billing etc. but you may be able to get closer to meeting your bottom line if you change target lot sizes.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ktfbgb said:


> So my question then is this. And trust me I don't know the answer, just an outsiders perspective. In the market that you are in is there any room for a business to sell a million dollars or more of snow removal services? If the NSP have a strangle hold on the market maybe the days of snow removal companies operating on that scale are over? Is it truely realistic to think that it's possible to operate on that scale anymore without going through the NSP? The reality is that the NSP are controlling the market there, wether that is the right thing to be happing is irrelevant, at this point in time that's the way it is.
> 
> So if that is the case, and it's not possible to operate on that scale anymore, in your target market of lots that are 250,000 square feet, then maybe you do need to change your target market. I understand that drive times affect production rates, but couldn't you theoretically sell the same amount of square footage services to smaller lots? There would just be more of them, and then obviously more sites is more stuff like accounting and billing etc. but you may be able to get closer to meeting your bottom line if you change target lot sizes.


Probably... getting 250k sq ft + sites directly to do is probably a false hope these days. I could focus on a lot more of the smaller stuff, but then in turn, unless you sign on 30 sites on the same account, like a cvs company, you essentially now arn't competing with NSPs, but every joe blow that can come out in his one pickup truck and plow that same site. I thought we had less competition on the lots where you needed equipment, and not that still 100 companies don't all have skids or backhoes etc. with push boxes, but then thats 100 as possible local competition instead of 900 guys with a 8' plow and pickup truck..


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Probably... getting 250k sq ft + sites directly to do is probably a false hope these days. I could focus on a lot more of the smaller stuff, but then in turn, unless you sign on 30 sites on the same account, like a cvs company, you essentially now arn't competing with NSPs, but every joe blow that can come out in his one pickup truck and plow that same site. I thought we had less competition on the lots where you needed equipment, and not that still 100 companies don't all have skids or backhoes etc. with push boxes, but then thats 100 as possible local competition instead of 900 guys with a 8' plow and pickup truck..


Why not join the local chamber of commerce, a local entrapuner group, and and the property managers association. For example the local property management company here in my town of just 150,000 people manages 40 something HOA's in the city. Obviously the HOA management companies will be much larger there. So that's a lot more private roads and condo lots, and commercial properties that are gonna need to be serviced all under one "account". I plow several HOA's for this management company so even though they are different entities I send invoices and correspondence to just one person. Also joining the entrapuner club and chamber of commerce will put you in direct contact with people who own businesses and property. You would be surprised how many commercial properties just one person owns in any given city. I have one client that owns 5 commercial accounts. All I had to do was meet him, talk for a few minutes, and he decided he liked dealing with me. 5 properties from one 10 minute meeting. I'm sure in your area your going to find guys who own like 30 commercial sites etc. The trick is finding them, and a lot of them belong to those clubs, or have friends who do etc. playing the game with the rich folk has paid off for me at least. Get in with a couple of them and all of a sudden you have access like never before. Just a thought to try out.


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## hickslawns (Dec 18, 2004)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> For the guys running snow services that involve say 6+ trucks and 6+ pieces of equipment, and do at least 20+ sites and have a mix of some smaller sites and still do some large sites in the 250k-1m sq ft range, if you did 100% of them through one NSP last year, and this year won't work for them, how would you make up that amount of accounts?


Remove all emotion from my decisions. Remove my ego. Make everything revolve around "What must I do to make a profit?"

IF 100% was NSP, then I would already have sold out. Sounds like you have already toughed out a couple of seasons with the additional overhead. You are entering another year with the additional overhead and not enough work to cover it. We are in December. Market is primed already because winter is here. List that stuff for sale. Downsize to what you need to manage your current accounts. Maybe keep a spare truck or skid loader if you have as much equipment as you claim. Do a profit and loss statement monthly. Update your net worth statement monthly. (Don't lie on it. Be honest. If you can only sell your used equipment for $100,000 then don't value it at $150000.) When I borrow for equipment I only borrow what I could sell the equipment for in a fire sale. Say I have a backhoe worth $35000. I have little doubt I can unload it in a hurry for $20000. Therefore, I wouldn't borrow more than $20000 for it.

Do you advertise at all? Member of the BBB? Local Chamber of Commerce? Have you been honest with yourself in regards to your local reputation? Is it possible you are not gaining work because nobody wants to work with you? I don't know you so I am not judging. This is something YOU need to answer. Are your minimums scaring people off?

Where to pick up work? We have been at it nearly 20yrs. Some good years and some bad. Some riddled with poor decisions on my part. Some years we had excessive repairs. Some years things rocked. We picked up accounts one at a time. Some of our most profitable accounts we have had for 10-15-20 years but we only bill $40-50-60 at a time. Reassess where you are and what you need. Do you truly need 250k sq ft accounts? Why not 10 accounts that pay $50 to plow but can be plowed in 5-15min each? I won't lie to you. I really don't want to put out all my accounts and how I have picked them up. It was done legitimately, but it was basically 20yrs of picking them up a little at a time. Most of this was word of mouth or random phone calls off yellow pages ads. Every year the advertisements cost us more and the quality of leads gets worse. Our best leads are still referrals. If you aren't getting referrals, you might want to reevaluate yourself and your business image.

My backup plan? Sell it all. I started this from scratch. My name is on the company. It would hurt my pride but selling off everything and being debt free is the ultimate ground zero for rebuilding/restructuring. Chances are you wouldn't have to sell everything to be at zero debt unless you are really upside down on stuff. Good luck in your decisions. Remember: Bigger is NOT always better.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

this is interesting, my insurance company does not require me to have "Snow" insurance if the revenue generated from snow does not eclipse 40% of our annual revenue. we do 2.8 million in swimming pools and around 400k in snow.

to touch on the national thing. there is a lowes and target literally rite across the street from me. ten years ago my friend did the lowes for 62k. this year someone took it at 19k, salt included. Target is the same thing, ten years ago it was 48k, now its 18k. i have no idea how the guy is doing it and making any money, he rents a loader that cost 16k a season, and has a truck and sidewalk crew on it. 

its really easy to be profitable with snow, i have 4 trucks, 2 skids, and 2 snow blowing crews. we are selling 200 dollars worth of salt for around $2,100.00. we make sure we are getting at least 125 an hour for equipment through our per inch pricing and on most accounts we are getting much more than that. we have a chain on wendys that 1 truck does that is seasonally 30k in revenue. we picked an area with some decent sized lots and hunted on it for three years. the first year we got the big one, the second year we got two more rite next to it. and then this year i got 2 more rite next to those. so now i have work for 2 skids and a truck rite there. its always nice to group your accounts together. once we beefed up that one area i dropped the accounts that did not make sense (politely). we work for 1 national company on one of the accounts. its EMCOR, they billing system is a pain in the ass and so is their work order system. (if any of you have issues with them call me and ill tell you what to tell them to solve the issues). EMCOR is pretty solid though, we get checks on the 15th of every month and you practically get to name your pricing. what is really nice is the actually property collects the bids and hands them to emcor. so once you are in you are in. EMCOR sees you as the incumbent contractor so unless you seriously screw things up you will not need to rebid the account. which is really nice. 

To get knew accounts you just have to go out and hustle, i must have written up 40 contracts this year in a small area and only landed three of them. its not worth it to work for cheap and when you learn that you are set. i personally am not amazing at sales, so i take my top 2 pool sales guys and put them on the road. every account the get i give them a small bonus, depending on lot size. anywhere from $150-$300.

Snow is pure hustle and efficiency.

Good Luck.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

on every contract and ill email one to you if you;d like, we put Save 5% on all winter work when a referral signs, and save 5% if you sign a 3 year contract. and i couldnt agree with you more. when you pick up accounts slowly over the years there is no danger of growing to quickly. i made that mistake my first year. got 2 huge accounts bought a ton of equipment when we where coming off an awesome winter and then the next year it didnt snow. That hurt, That was a bad year. there is nothign wrong with growing slowly. when you grow slow you can still service your existing customers and keep them happy. happy customers means re signed contracts which means its one less thing you need to worry about next year. 

For example, there is a large trucking center rite next to all of my accounts. i very badly want to get that account. something inside of me i just love doing snow. how ever, do be able to service that account i would need 1 loader, 1 skid, 1 truck. i do not have the funds for that this year so its going to have to wait until maybe next year. i mean i literally had a contract typed up ready to give to them and everything. 

only take on what you can afford. with snow its not worth the risk. if it doesnt snow your screwed, and you cant count on mother nature for anything.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I just took a small job from a NSP, It's a Verizon account, I took it because it's about a $50.00 job to plow they offered me $95.00. No building sidewalk just right a way and they are part of the parking lot, No shoveling. $90.00 to salt I just throw it don't even use a spreader. It is only 9 parking spots.

I have no idea how they scored this much money for this little job. It takes about 15 min including throwing the salt. I serviced it twice was going to invoice at end of month, Two days after the NSP wanted the invoice . Now to see if I get paid or not. LOL  :hammerhead:


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## waltzie (Dec 8, 2016)

Check out my post in the employment section. Someone in North Jersey could easily gain a non national commercial account that pays well.


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## LogansLawnCare (Aug 3, 2007)

Have you ever considered bidding on government contracts? In our area we have a lot of local cities and even state contracts that are put out for bid, you get all of the details online and you are able to look at the sites and make your bids accordingly. Sometimes you can get several sites in one city with one contract.


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

I thought after all these years of poor work and outright failures to move the snow, the big nationals would be on the decline, unfortunately for every one that goes under, another appears! I think the only way to break them is for everyone to refuse to work for them, a nation wide strike if you will. There is power in numbers, but there will always be those companys that sign those awful contracts and keep us all down!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

lawn king said:


> I thought after all these years of poor work and outright failures to move the snow, the big nationals would be on the decline, unfortunately for every one that goes under, another appears! I think the only way to break them is for everyone to refuse to work for them, a nation wide strike if you will. There is power in numbers, but there will always be those companys that sign those awful contracts and keep us all down!


That sounds real good and probably would work with enough effort. It would have to be organized similar to a Union or some prevailing wage deal. If the right money was payed to snow Contractors they would want the best of us. If I'm doing a prevailing wage job I bring the best guys I can because they all want to go to get the big money. Unless your a union company and the pay is the same wherever your guys go.

I know for a fact there is Government agency's are using NSP's, For one the post office. These funds come from the same place if a Contractor that does construction work at the PO you will have to pay Union scale - prevailing wage which is the same. You don't want to pay you will not get paid either. You have to have Certified payroll for every man on the job and don't think the inspectors are not on top of it and get your employee's info. similar to a BA on a union job.

This probably would be impossible at this time for snow contractors now anyways. It's nice to think about and shoot the breeze about tho. LOL


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

LogansLawnCare said:


> Have you ever considered bidding on government contracts? In our area we have a lot of local cities and even state contracts that are put out for bid, you get all of the details online and you are able to look at the sites and make your bids accordingly. Sometimes you can get several sites in one city with one contract.


To get government work in towns here, you have to know someone. But once your in your usually good, until the administration changes. Then they have their own people.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Well said, Politics. Smart minorities could lock a few up with no problems. Makes the administration look good. Browne points. LOL


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## LogansLawnCare (Aug 3, 2007)

In Michigan we have a website where cities and state agencies can post bid opportunities. I agree that knowing someone in the city or agency helps a lot, but we have been able to pick up a few nice paying accounts. It can be hard to get your first few because they all want to know your experience working with municipalities but like I said it may be something worth while to check out.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)




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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Was supposed to be a caption there.. so the top is what whomever company has on the large site this year, just put in the last week i assume, one small skid steer for salt, not one push box on site, no other equipment besides this machine. The below picture was when we handled the site previously, minus the 524k JD loader not in the photo. I think we had 5 skid steers, a tractor "green in the photo", with a 10' box, an F350 and a 14' box on a loader. Maybe we get a gift this season, it snows a foot and they can't meet the requirements of moving all the snow before opening hours before the first trains arrive at 5:30am and we gain the account directly. I assume the property owners/managers hired new companies for these large sites simply due to cost if nothing else as there was never any problems with our work and out of their 9 sites in NJ, the one we handled was the cleanest/soonest as we were already hauling/stacking/relocating snow January 24th by mid morning, when other sites they had companies handling weren't fully plowed by monday morning still.


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## danknight163 (Nov 19, 2007)

i just want to say i refuse to work for a company thats going to take food from my mouth and low ball my business and i have been in business for 16 year and well used 1 and will never again it's your choice whether you want to or not that simple !!! lowblue:


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

We only work for local businesses , ones that are owned locally . I meet with the real owners of the property . Basically local business owners working for local businesses . Am I getting top dollar , no . Why these customers have been loyal to us for 15 , 20 and 30 years . They take priority . I pick up 3 of 4 new accounts a season that are in my route . I decline twice that , but can usually refer them to another contractor I know in that area . Contracts , they sign my agreement , period , if they dont like it I dont work for them . I dont want the big jobs , lots of little jobs pay well . I have been approached by those nationals in the past , I just tell them , No thanks .


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