# Concrete breaking



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So I already posted pics in the Rant thread. I can post them up again here.

The customer spoke with whom I am assuming installed the concrete. They are a large company which has been around for quite some time and 9 locations around the country. I realize this doesn't mean their work is perfect...it might even be that they it makes it more likely they screwed up.

Here is what their guy said:

_Thank you for your time earlier today along with sending over these pictures. Based on the equipment models along with what we saw today onsite I have the following comments.

The overall weight of the machines do not seem to be a concern as long as the units are running with all four tires on the walk. The areas with the most damage seem to be adjacent to areas where the landscape has also seen traffic. So if these units were rolling off of the edges when removing snow that could be an event that damages the walks. This would especially pertain to areas that do not have an integral turndown edge like the west side of the building. Continued traffic and turning of equipment on the walks can also cause damage.

It should be noted that the increased freeze thaw cycle that occurs when using de-icing materials also has an impact on surface finishes along with joint deterioration.

If you have a compacted sub base and concrete that meets design strength most visible cracks we see are noticed within the first few weeks of the placement. With that being said it appears the majority of the cracking you are noticing seems to be caused by something other than concrete deficiencies.

This email is simply conveying our thoughts based on what we saw today and if you have any further questions please contact me._

@plow4beer @jomama45 thoughts?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)




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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Pass the buck/blame/claim.
If its not the weight of the machine how does the direction change the application of presure?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Thin or poor subgrade...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Thin or poor subgrade...


Forgot you are a know-it-all former concrete/sewer/dirtdigger monkey...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Forgot you are a know-it-all former concrete/sewer/dirtdigger monkey...


You forgot...

Asphalt/tree/slumlord

Edit: Miner.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Yes I did....and a current HD Polish sausage shopper.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> View attachment 239878
> 
> 
> View attachment 239880
> ...


If the machine run off the edge wouldn't that mean only half the weight would be on the concrete.
I would lean toward a poor batch.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

We plow sidewalks with out trucks all the time. Brad would plow the sidewalk at a nursing home with his international dump a few years ago. Never had a problem like that.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

LapeerLandscape said:


> We plow sidewalks with out trucks all the time. Brad would plow the sidewalk at a nursing home with his international dump a few years ago. Never had a problem like that.


Sounds like you're rollin with baby Barney salt loads then...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

As I said in the rant, if it was the weight of the equipment, we would be having these issues all over. And we have done new (less than a year old) concrete with both of our machines without issues. We're running tractors on other walks, no problems. 

Thousands of SSV's out there. Hundreds if not thousands of SteelGreens/Zplows out there. Thousands of Ventracs and Steiners out there. 

I'm leaning towards a piss poor base and or compaction of the base. Could be a poor batch, at some point I'll ask the concrete monkey where the seament came from. 

I like how he threw in the de-icing/freeze-thaw cycles.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Sounds like you're rollin with baby Barney salt loads then...


It was a international 4700 with an under tailgate spreader. It's the same truck at the same location that he run into the very nice entrance overhang because he had the box up. He thought the building was coming down on him.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> As I said in the rant, if it was the weight of the equipment, we would be having these issues all over. And we have done new (less than a year old) concrete with both of our machines without issues. We're running tractors on other walks, no problems.
> 
> Thousands of SSV's out there. Hundreds if not thousands of SteelGreens/Zplows out there. Thousands of Ventracs and Steiners out there.
> 
> ...


There are places that you can get concrete tested but you would have to saw cut a chunk out.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> As I said in the rant, if it was the weight of the equipment, we would be having these issues all over. And we have done new (less than a year old) concrete with both of our machines without issues. We're running tractors on other walks, no problems.
> 
> Thousands of SSV's out there. Hundreds if not thousands of SteelGreens/Zplows out there. Thousands of Ventracs and Steiners out there.
> 
> ...


Is your salt bin cracking?
That sees way more weight and deicer than your sidewalk machine put down…


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

LapeerLandscape said:


> There are places that you can get concrete tested but you would have to saw cut a chunk out.


Instead of coring it?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Is your salt bin cracking?
> That sees way more weight and deicer than your sidewalk machine put down…


Salt bin is at least 8" thick with heavy mesh.

No freeze/thaw cycles either...it's always thawed. (not really, it isn't full all the time)


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Instead of coring it?


A core would be good


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So I already posted pics in the Rant thread. I can post them up again here.
> 
> The customer spoke with whom I am assuming installed the concrete. They are a large company which has been around for quite some time and 9 locations around the country. I realize this doesn't mean their work is perfect...it might even be that they it makes it more likely they screwed up.
> 
> ...


This sounds more like an engineer, or perhaps the GC who built it.
Did they take any core samples when it was built? Any slump tests?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm gathering info...I'll add that to the list.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Maybe you can make a deal with them. Cut out a small section where its cracked. If everything appears to be up to par, you pay to replace that section. If it isn't you wash your hands of it. 
Kinda rolling the dice, but I'm guessing they'll fall in your favor.
Another possibility, you hire an unbiased engineer. If he says you didn't cause the damage, they pay his fee.
If it comes down to a lawsuit, your liability insurance will be handling it and other than supplying info and maybe a deposition, you're out of it.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

The first pic, i would be willing to bet a $100 they put dowels (rebar) into the foundation, and the slab wraps around the rebar.…so now the concrete will not move near the foundation, but yet moves everywhere else during the freeze/thaw cycles creating a stress point near the foundation. I understand they were most likely intending to keep the slab from lifting, so that it wouldn’t create a problem with opening the door during the freezing/lifting cycle, but there are methods to minimize the probability of that crack appearing (which is irrelevant to discuss right now)

the other pics could be a variety of things….is there damaged irrigation under the slab causing excessive movement/compromised base? Did they prep the base correctly? Did they skimp on thickness/slab get poured too thin? Could simply be Bad concrete?….lots of variables

I’m confident its not your fault Oooomps….even if your equipment actually cracked the slab in some of those spots, its because of another factor that is out of your control/listed above. 

Some of those cracks appear to be an install or material defect, but its not a perfect world, and fillbill E already told you that concrete is guaranteed to crack. No Contractor can give a guarantee concrete wont crack….at least not Excessively…..there are some allowances for cracking/surface defects within the industry.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

plow4beer said:


> The first pic, i would be willing to bet a $100 they put dowels (rebar) into the foundation, and the slab wraps around the rebar.…so now the concrete will not move near the foundation, but yet moves during the freeze/thaw cycles creating a stress point near the foundation. I understand they were most likely intending to keep the slab from lifting, so that it wouldn't create a problem with opening the door during the freezing/lifting cycle, but there are methods to minimize the probability of that crack appearing (which is irrelevant to discuss right now)
> 
> the other pics could be a variety of things….is there damaged irrigation under the slab causing excessive movement/compromised base? Did they prep the base correctly? Did they skimp on thickness/slab get poured too thin? Could simply be Bad concrete?….lots of variables
> 
> ...


At that curved section, I'm guessing improper base material. You'll probably find topsoil under it.
Or, you'll find voids, because of some settling.
As you mentioned, it could have been caused by irrigation.


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

I would say a lack of base as well as little to no mesh, maybe fiber mesh?
Most of the concrete we remove has the mesh laying on the base gravel rusty and not pulled up into the pour.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

DeVries said:


> I would say a lack of base as well as little to no mesh, maybe fiber mesh?
> Most of the concrete we remove has the mesh laying on the base gravel rusty and not pulled up into the pour.


Steel doesn't necessarily stop cracking per say, in fact, sometimes it can actually cause cracking(when improperly used)…one example is in an instance like what I mentioned in my first post. What it should do though, is keep the crack from opening up to anything more than a hairline. 
It's amazing how many slabs I've torn out where the mesh is laying on the bottom, but yet it's still holding things together like a mofo…btw, ideally, the steel should be in the bottom 1/3 of the thickness of the slab.

edit: just so no one misinterprets my post…steel helps with minimizing cracking, but there are other, just as important (if not more important) factors, that help "control" cracking.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Meet one of their guys out there and pull some of the mulch back. It might give you an indication of what's under the concrete.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Dont sugar coat it, its a problem client they blame you for everything, gates irrigation, concrete. If they pay well its up to you to know whether the lost sleep over whats next is worth it. You know it wont go well if there actually is something that your guys screw up. We're not infalable, $#1+ happens. They are doing the hard sell that its all on you, I wouldnt take that.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Do yourself a favor and fire yourself for the weekend. You deserve it.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Hard to tell in the other pics, but this one I'm pretty confident wont have any steel reinforcement…this new of concrete shouldn't be separated in a crack (our joint) that mulch if it had steel in it


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

plow4beer said:


> View attachment 239894
> 
> 
> Hard to tell in the other pics, but this one I'm pretty confident wont have any steel reinforcement…this new of concrete shouldn't be separated in a crack (our joint) that mulch if it had steel in it


Yea, that's what I told him the other day as well when he originally posted the pictures. Those cracks are far too big to have any steel in the concrete.

Mark: Whoever wrote that response email is a dunderhead trying to cover their employer's rear end. There's no way you cracked the slab 18" away from the building when the machine clearly can't get that close. Assuming you have similar temps there this winter, and you had 3'? of frost for most of the winter? How would a small machine like that cause damage over frozen ground? Did they actually install concrete walks on a commercial space and not expect it to get de-icer? If you drove the machine off of the edge when the ground had a few feet of frost, what kind of dynamic load would be applied to the sidewalk?

I'd get over there as soon as you can and set a straight edge or 4' level over those cracks (especially the last, wide on) and see if it rocks, letting you n=know that it is raised from frost heave. My bet is on saturated heavy clay under a few inches of gravel...........

PS, I know I said you could break an anvil, but I don't think even you could break this one..............


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

plow4beer said:


> It's amazing how many slabs I've torn out where the mesh is laying on the bottom, but yet it's still holding things together like a mofo…btw, ideally, the steel should be in the bottom 1/3 of the thickness of the slab.


I've seen the same, and have always been impressed that the WWM often has less rust on it than the stuff we can buy new now-a-days. I guess they oiled the stuff with real petro back in the day, and weren't shipping it across salt water seas...........


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

jomama45 said:


> I've seen the same, and have always been impressed that the WWM often has less rust on it than the stuff we can buy new now-a-days. I guess they oiled the stuff with real petro back in the day, and weren't shipping it across salt water seas...........


Most wire mesh you see anymore is rusted to poop before you even use it…we've discussed this before, but ive moved to more #3 rebar in place of WWM…..in fact ive also been using some fiberglass rebar as well in some cases


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

plow4beer said:


> Most wire mesh you see anymore is rusted to poop before you even use it…we've discussed this before, but ive moved to more #3 rebar in place of WWM…..in fact ive also been using some fiberglass rebar as well in some cases


I hate wire mesh, it sucks in every way and leads to constant cuts and eventual WC claims, so we may use it every 5 years or so for some dumb reason. One local village used to require it in garage slabs, no matter what other re-enforcement you used, dumb code. We've also used it in deep pours we wanted to be able to walk in w/o sinking too deep, but that's pretty rare.

Probably 99% of what I've poured in the last 23 years is #3's on 24" to 36" centers, and unless it gets too expensive to continue, I'm not changing because it's worked well. I've used the fiberglass a few times, usually in Stegmeir deck/pool drains to avoid the rust out. The big hold up is that you can't bend it.

I've used this a number of times too, and will eventually start using it more as steel prices climb, and I think it's probably better than rebar in most situations. I just don't like how well it holds the concrete together while your placing it. It feels like you're pulling 4" slump concrete, but after you get it floated off, it seems like a 5.5 to 6" slump. It's pretty impressive stuff though, and can be used in pretty heavy doses if you're looking to spread out your joint patterns:

http://www.forta-ferro.com/products/forta-ferro/


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

This thread is like dayjavoo....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> This thread is like dayjavoo....


Again?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So in an attempt to look half way intelligent (this will take a lot of effort), what questions should I ask? And what answers should I be looking for?

@EWSplow mentioned a slump test and core sample.

Dowels by the doorway. My concrete fella thought they may have poured it under the doorjamb to keep it from moving...same effect as dowels.

Anything else?

I don't think anyone uses mesh for sidewalks around here.

I have multiple ways I can go.

I could offer to replace the one corner that is cracked. But then I might as well do the other section since I'm going to be paying a minimum load charge no matter what.

I can enforce my contract verbage stating we aren't liable for damage to concrete or asphalt.

I can ask a whole bunch of questions and act like I know what I am talking about. Including getting an engineer involved. Probably cost as much as replacing it.

I'm curious what he will be asking for. He said he would be contacting me soon. I really want to start replying, but my gut tells me to wait and see what he asks for. Better to hold your fire until you know what the other guy is firing.

I would like to keep the customer, just not the contact. Prior to this guy taking over, things were great. This guy seems to be trying to make an impression with his new boss and I am hesitant to go over his head at this point.

BTW, still haven't heard back from the airport. Trying to decide if we should poke that bear. It could stir up more poo or it could work in our favor showing that we have previously been accused of damage that was not our fault.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> _The overall weight of the machines do not seem to be a concern as long as the units are running with all four tires on the walk. The areas with the most damage seem to be adjacent to areas where the landscape has also seen traffic. So if these units were rolling off of the edges when removing snow that could be an event that damages the walks. This would especially pertain to areas that do not have an integral turndown edge like the west side of the building. Continued traffic and turning of equipment on the walks can also cause damage._


Two of the pics show cracking where the machine could not have "rolled off the edge." So what caused that cracking there? They can't explain it other than turning equipment which can't cause a slab to crack. And if it's freeze/thaw due to deicers then it's the installer's fault.

Even if a machine has a tire dangling off the edge how much more weight is that? Not enough to crack cement. If your life depended on trying to crack a cement sidewalk with a ride-on machine it would be a short life.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Many commercial and condo associations have sidewalks that get driven over with a fully loaded zspray while fertilizing. Every day nearly everywhere. There would be an epidemic of cracked sidewalks if they were an issue.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Landgreen said:


> Many commercial and condo associations have sidewalks that get driven over with a fully loaded zspray while fertilizing. Every day nearly everywhere. There would be an epidemic of cracked sidewalks if they were an issue.


Not to mention lawn mowers.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So in an attempt to look half way intelligent (this will take a lot of effort), what questions should I ask? And what answers should I be looking for?
> 
> @EWSplow mentioned a slump test and core sample.
> 
> ...


My guess is seeing its just a sidewalk they are not going to have a core sample or a slump test but you could ask if they have a blue print that shows the thickness, the strength and if it has fiber mesh or wire. Just measuring the thickness at the edge is not good enough, its going to probably be 4" at the form its in the middle that is what needs to be checked. Or if its just a junk batch of concrete but chances are getting it tested may cost more than just replacing it, But I really have no idea how much that cost.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

first pi i dont see any separation strip from foundation, so the concrete probably adhered to the foundation and would not float with temp change
the rest looks like poor prep, low test concrete, or too thin....


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Landgreen said:


> Many commercial and condo associations have sidewalks that get driven over with a fully loaded zspray while fertilizing. Every day nearly everywhere. There would be an epidemic of cracked sidewalks if they were an issue.


Without getting into too much math, I can see a person jogging or riding a bike creating more ground pressure then any mower or zspray possibly...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So in an attempt to look half way intelligent (this will take a lot of effort), what questions should I ask? And what answers should I be looking for?
> 
> @EWSplow mentioned a slump test and core sample.
> 
> ...


I'd wait for them to contact you. In the meantime, get all your poop together, so you know what to ask him and have some answers.
I guess if you don't hear from him, you might when you send the contract renewal.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

LapeerLandscape said:


> My guess is seeing its just a sidewalk they are not going to have a core sample or a slump test but you could ask if they have a blue print that shows the thickness, the strength and if it has fiber mesh or wire. Just measuring the thickness at the edge is not good enough, its going to probably be 4" at the form its in the middle that is what needs to be checked. Or if its just a junk batch of concrete but chances are getting it tested may cost more than just replacing it, But I really have no idea how much that cost.


My guess is they didn't do core samples or a slump test. This means they have no proof that the concrete was properly installed.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> I'd wait for them to contact you. In the meantime, get all your poop together, so you know what to ask him and have some answers.
> I guess if you don't hear from him, you might when you send the contract renewal.


Summer contract is waiting their approval.

Winter is good for another 2 years.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> My guess is they didn't do core samples or a slump test. This means they have no proof that the concrete was properly installed.


For a sidewalk I doubt any testing was done, just fill the forms and move on


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BUFF said:


> For a sidewalk I doubt any testing was done, just fill the forms and move on


Zackly why I told him to ask for them.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BUFF said:


> For a sidewalk I doubt any testing was done, just fill the forms and move on


Zackly why I told him to ask for them


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Sometimes concrete cracks when the mesh isn't on the bottom...


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> .
> 
> Dowels by the doorway. My concrete fella thought they may have poured it under the doorjamb to keep it from moving...same effect as dowels.
> 
> ...


Out of these 5 I left from your post -

Not really, but depending on structure/etc its possible….I HIGHLY DOUBT IT though…if so, you'll typically see damage to the door jam before anything else.

Why? so you can just be a push over and not only take blame for things in question, but also take blame for things that are (painfully) obvious that aren't your fault?

If thats the contract, it seems like a pretty open & shut case?…Why all the fuss? Seems pretty clear to me, especially since this seems like a pretty obvious case of where your not at fault?…?..Isn't being in business stressful enough? I'm not a fan of scenarios like this, and the way your laying this out for me, tells me I wouldn't want to deal with this customer anymore than necessary, and would be looking for a way to politely part ways as soon as contracts allow….not worth the liability & stress.

Your good at acting like you know what your talking about…we all know this…but seriously, that's probably a good play to buy more time…getting an engineer involved to do some testing is not nearly as much as it would cost to replace all of it, at least not from what I know….You shouldn't be paying for that…that should be between the customer, concrete monkey, & the Redi-mix plant (and the customer is who should seek out the engineer, DEFINITELY not the Reid-mix plant - those guys are typically in bed together - and if its a large concrete contractor, they will have someone in their back pocket as well)

That's a smart play, for the time being



LapeerLandscape said:


> My guess is seeing its just a sidewalk they are not going to have a core sample or a slump test but you could ask if they have a blue print that shows the thickness, the strength and if it has fiber mesh or wire. Just measuring the thickness at the edge is not good enough, its going to probably be 4" at the form its in the middle that is what needs to be checked. Or if its just a junk batch of concrete but chances are getting it tested may cost more than just replacing it, But I really have no idea how much that cost.


No, it wouldn't cost nearly as much


leolkfrm said:


> first pi i dont see any separation strip from foundation, so the concrete probably adhered to the foundation and would not float with temp change
> the rest looks like poor prep, low test concrete, or too thin....


Expansion joint you mean, and no it doesn't look like it, but honestly hard for me to tell….regardless, I highly doubt that is the root cause…when what your describing happens, it typically doesn't cause a crack like that, it causes chipping (usually pretty bad) where the slab meets the foundation.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

plow4beer said:


> Out of these 5 I left from your post -
> 
> Not really, but depending on structure/etc its possible….I HIGHLY DOUBT IT though…if so, you'll typically see damage to the door jam before anything else.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing around $500 for the engineer. 
There's really no calcs to do other than the weight of the machine, etc.
All you really need is an engineer's report.
If you do this, find a small firm (one man operation). I've hired engineers for various things. I always used the small firms that use a common sense approach.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

I know very little about concrete, am I nutty for thinking that pics 1-3 all look like the cracks developed from heaving and making the concrete bend concaved "\/"? And that pic 4 looks like the slab "bent" convex "/\" and then broke either due to heaving under the crack or missing substrate under the cracked portion? The cracks in 1-3 all look tight, and 4 is much more open making me think that 4 is the one that dropped.
I'll join the chorus of folks that would like to see a straight-edge over the cracks in the pics.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Maybe it was pinned to the foundation, wasn’t able to move and cracked…


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Maybe it was pinned to the foundation, wasn't able to move and cracked…


Lets try not to clutter up this thread by repeating things already mentioned…thanks and have a nice day


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Its already been answered about rhe absurdity of the machine weight theory.
If the theory of running off the walk with the machine were to be suggested (as it was) I would counter with the base was probably therefore only prepped to the form...and this is incorrect when building any concrete surface. The base should be compacted and prepped beyond the form. Again a concrete/cement/ monkey error.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

He's focusing on these 2.



















He wanted to know my thoughts on the email. I told him about a couple of my reservations regarding the email and what I think the problem is.

He is still thinking it is from the equipment running off the edge...now that the weight of the equipment has been debunked.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> Its already been answered about rhe absurdity of the machine weight theory.
> If the theory of running off the walk with the machine were to be suggested (as it was) I would counter with the base was probably therefore only prepped to the form...and this is incorrect when building any concrete surface. The base should be compacted and prepped beyond the form. Again a concrete/cement/ monkey error.


Hense my suggestion to pull the mulch away to see what's under the concrete.
If you're late to the party, at least bring beer.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Summer contract is waiting their approval.
> 
> Winter is good for another 2 years.


How good of clients are they? For good clients I tend to give a little. For so so or blah, I don't bend at all.

My 2 cents: Get written permission to dig out the sod next to the broken concrete, prove your case. If they poured under the stoop or doweled=not you. Bad/inadequate base=free and clear.

Stupid crap sucks man. Keep your chin up.

City inspections on sidewalks? Inspectors report?


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## TwiceStroked (Feb 8, 2010)

BAD/Improper compaction of BASE!!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So on Friday I sent a nice email to everyone on the email that was forwarded to me, once again outlining my concerns with the claims being made; the history of these pieces of equipment and why it was unlikely that they were the cause of the cracks.

I got a not so nice email from the GC in reply.

_Hi Mark,

Thank you for your reply below. This is clearly turning into a finger pointing exercise involving the owner. I will replace the concrete, because it is the right thing to do. I'm fairly confident it was not our issue, all our testing and reports have been approved by a third party testing agency, along with Cascade township inspections. I'm am however confident the person from your team clearing snow was not competent for the task. I would recommend using a shovel or snowblower in the future to avoid future damage. It appears that your equipment(operator) has failed your team on this account, I don't think you can argue that.

If your team is not willing to pay for or participate in fixing the concrete, that is up to you, but I will make sure it's fixed because it is the right thing to do.

Have a good day Mark!_

I was flat out amazed, still am by this reply. Other than the testing, nothing else was addressed. I also like how he is trying to guilt me into paying for part of it.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So on Friday I sent a nice email to everyone on the email that was forwarded to me, once again outlining my concerns with the claims being made; the history of these pieces of equipment and why it was unlikely that they were the cause of the cracks.
> 
> I got a not so nice email from the GC in reply.
> 
> ...


You're obviously too nice... I would of never received an email back... More like a certified letter from Dewey Cheatem and Hall...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Please post your reply about recommending sidewalk contractors who suggest only using shovels and walk behinds on their cured concrete due to its fragility....good to see hes stepping up and fixing it. I wil say this, in the years that I have done commercial properties, I have seen stuff happen that no one thinks of in the moment. A septic truck backing over a sidewalk to get out back to the septic tank, well service,drillers, a furnace duct cleaner with a heavy truck backing up to the front door. Delivery/moving trucks same, its possible there are others. You're just the scapegoat because you're who they see.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So on Friday I sent a nice email to everyone on the email that was forwarded to me, once again outlining my concerns with the claims being made; the history of these pieces of equipment and why it was unlikely that they were the cause of the cracks.
> 
> I got a not so nice email from the GC in reply.
> 
> ...


He's playing a little guilt game with you to get you to share in the expenses. When you think about it, he's admitting guilt but trying to share it with you.
I'd ask to be there when the concrete is being removed to determine weather you have any liability at all. Maybe you can give your flatwork guy a few bucks to join you.
He mentioned testing. What type and where are the results?
BTW, I told you that 1st response you got was probably from the GC.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

EWSplow said:


> He's playing a little guilt game with you to get you to share in the expenses. When you think about it, he's admitting guilt but trying to share it with you.
> I'd ask to be there when the concrete is being removed to determine weather you have any liability at all. Maybe you can give your flatwork guy a few bucks to join you.
> He mentioned testing. What type and where are the results?
> BTW, I told you that 1st response you got was probably from the GC.


I agree 100%


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> He's playing a little guilt game with you to get you to share in the expenses. When you think about it, he's admitting guilt but trying to share it with you.
> I'd ask to be there when the concrete is being removed to determine weather you have any liability at all. Maybe you can give your flatwork guy a few bucks to join you.
> He mentioned testing. What type and where are the results?
> BTW, I told you that 1st response you got was probably from the GC.


Yes

Yes

Possibly, not sure it's worth my time. Customer said he wants to meet with me before the season starts next winter. This tells me they understand the GC and sub is full of it and understand it is not the result of our equipment or operators.

LOL...c'mon man...it was tested and approved by the inspectors. Not sure I've seen an inspector present on a sidewalk install. He didn't address 99% of my concerns/questions, only the testing one.

Yes and no, first reply was from someone at the concrete sub for the GC. I would have loved to seen the flurry of emails going back and forth Friday afternoon. My email went out at 1:30 PM. This email came in at 8:21 AM yesterday morning.

Also curious what sections are going to be replaced? In reality, the one with the large cracks is the only one that needs to be replaced. The others are just hairline.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Just another day in the world of the construction "pass the buck" game.

Long and short is the GC has a guarantee to uphold per the contract... product failed... he wants to find a reason to make someone else pay for it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

How I'd like to start my reply is something along these lines:

Thanks for your reply and if I ever need a building built, it won't be your company building it. 

CFO says I need to use people skills.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> How I'd like to start my reply is something along these lines:
> 
> Thanks for your reply and if I ever need a building built, it won't be your company building it.
> 
> CFO says I need to use people skills.


That's why you have two emails ready, one on the screen for her to proof read... Then one saved draft saying what you really mean that actually gets sent...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> How I'd like to start my reply is something along these lines:
> 
> Thanks for your reply and if I ever need a building built, it won't be your company building it.
> 
> CFO says I need to use people skills.


They are overrated in times like these.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Well, we only have two types of concrete here. One is concrete with cracks in it, and the other is concrete that hasn't cracked yet. I have seen a lot of cracks in my lifetime and sometimes you just don't know why the crack God decided to wave his magic wand. My thought is that it really isn't a structural defect or a operator failure but rather a quick freeze before the base had a time to drain away the base. If it was a operator/machine failure you would seen wheel marks in the mulch/sod, the crack would be uneven, and you would seen scuffs from tire treads. Of course my observations are based on your pictures presented here. 
My first impression is that is a really "good" customer. It seems to be a multi-year contract and they pay their bills in time The fact that they were soliciting your opinion is a good sign. The question is not what caused the problem, but what can we do to prevent this problem again. Fine, the customer thinks it is a machine problem, okay it is a shovel and broom facility only. The present contract has to amended to include those costs and performance standards. Here is your new three year contract and we will fix the existing problem free. All you have to do is amortized the cost of the repair and additional labor into another 3 year contract. We used to photo sidewalk inspection before the start of a season. Also keep in mind that it just isn't your machine on a sidewalk. I have seen many facility ATV overloaded delivering cleaning supplies to remote staircases.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

It’s a tough situation but I would want to be there when demo’s. My guess is he won’t let be there or tell you when he does it


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

A few comments from our retired concrete expert.

_First off...The picture by the doorwall...No control joints anywhere...Also...No expansion joint or expansion paper up by the house..it has a poor broom finish on it which leads me to believe that the concrete has minimal trolling to cure the surface...Third...I guarantee he sub base is ****...Concrete cracks...It's inevitable...But if you have few or no control joints ..That's what your gonna get

Looks like a crappy job to me...The slabs are poorly finished and need more control joints

Dig up the edge in a few places and see how thick the concrete is...The crack down the center of that one slab is definitely a sub base failure_

Seems to be a recurring theme no matter who I talk to.

I'll send a nice reply at some point, but I do have other things to do.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

The broom crew chief must not have been "competent for the task"...


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## grnleafgrnscape (Nov 30, 2013)

I would say the subgrade crew chief was incompetent as well or wouldn't be the openings like they are.
Looks like might've been related to the crew that did my wash slab


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

So I’m no concrete guy, but my self poured and poorly finished 20x20 fiber mesh 4” slab under my salt pile with the 10x20 apron shows zero cracks after its first winter with a 8k lb Gehl driving on it all winter, not to mention all the loaded trucks driving on and off the edges, plows scraping it, buckets, etc.

Perhaps point out to the GC he should have speced at least 3,500 PSI concrete?


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## TwiceStroked (Feb 8, 2010)

They need to cancel the hover round drag races they were holding there on Friday nights.
Not for nothing but, they rolled the dice cutting corners and lost.
I had sw and dway apron done, told my guy I needed a year warranty, he said "I'll give U 5" that was 2004, in upstate NY, had morons park on it since its paved and Im in liberal .... whats theirs is theirs and whats mine is theirs, had city plows bang it since granite curbs are subterranean and my 7400+# 350 plow it ZERO CRACKS.
All about Prep and
American Craftsman Pride..


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Not too many contractors taking pride in there work and doing the job to last


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## TwiceStroked (Feb 8, 2010)

Western1 said:


> Not too many contractors taking pride in there work and doing the job to last


Like most Trades going the way of the Dinosaur :-(


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> _ I would recommend using a shovel or snowblower in the future to avoid future damage. It appears that your equipment(operator) has failed your team on this account, I don't think you can argue that._


He clearly doesn't know who he's dealing with, because everyone knows that you can argue about ANYTHING!

If he's offering suggestions on how to do your job, perhaps you should reply that the concrete sub should probably tear the slabs out with a pick and sledge hammer to avoid doing any damage to the adjacent landscape.............


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jomama45 said:


> He clearly doesn't know who he's dealing with, because everyone knows that you can argue about ANYTHING!


Can not...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So on Friday I sent a nice email to everyone on the email that was forwarded to me, once again outlining my concerns with the claims being made; the history of these pieces of equipment and why it was unlikely that they were the cause of the cracks.
> 
> I got a not so nice email from the GC in reply.
> 
> ...


Should have Dave Snyder reply to him.....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Looks like the concrete monkey gets around...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I blame the Irrigation


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> I blame the Irrigation


Pretty sure the pic is from Suck Bent.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> _Hi Mark,_
> 
> _Thank you for your reply below. This is clearly turning into a finger pointing exercise involving the owner. I will replace the concrete, because it is the right thing to do. I'm fairly confident it was not our issue, all our testing and reports have been approved by a third party testing agency, along with Cascade township inspections. I'm am however confident the person from your team clearing snow was not competent for the task. I would recommend using a shovel or snowblower in the future to avoid future damage. It appears that your equipment(operator) has failed your team on this account, I don't think you can argue that.
> 
> ...











…………….And this should be all thats in your replay to his email………….


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

plow4beer said:


> View attachment 240556
> 
> …………….And this should be all thats in your replay to his email………….


While that would be hilarious, it won't be as much fun as telling him that not only are my questions/concerns based on my history but also a few concrete experts.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> my questions/concerns based on my history but also a few concrete experts.


Ha….always knew you were a sucker


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## TwiceStroked (Feb 8, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Looks like the concrete monkey gets around...
> 
> View attachment 240520


Nice Voids next failure location 4 U 2 B blamed 4.
Now onto the conduits.....
And can I get their card so I can give 2 the neighbors that I don't talk 2 ?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> _ It appears that your equipment(operator) has failed your team on this account, I don't think you can argue that._


So, he's saying its "user error"?

Huh. Shocking.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Sorry to hijack Oo, just seemed appropriate to ask in this thread

here’s a few pics from a backyard we redid last summer:
In progress:









almost done









Turned out pretty good. In addition to the rock walls, steps, and grading/sod, I also poured 8-9 yards of concrete patio and walkway under the deck. Customer sent me these pics today























concrete got the same prep we do for every pour, 4”(or more)of 3/4” state spec road base that gets graded to within 3/8” and then wetted and compacted with a vibratory plate. Mud was a 6 bag mix poured at about a 5 slump with air and a poly water reducer. I’d love to blame it on the batch but I poured it in 2-3 pours over a couple days so I don’t think they were all bad. I personally poured the whole thing so I feel confident there were no major mistakes made during the pour (knowingly, at least) that would compromise strength. The common denominator seems to be they all cracked off the sonotubes for the deck. I’ve seen pads cracks on inside 45 angles, but does anyone know if it’s common to crack on a radius like that? More importantly, anyone have any tricks for pouring around the sonos so it won’t crack?

customer loves me but is a major PITA and is not easy to please. I already know telling him that all concrete cracks will not be good enough, and have accepted I’m gonna have to go cut those sections out and replace. Just wanting to get it right next time. Any thoughts?
(@jomama45 @plow4beer any other concrete guys out there.)


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Kinport said:


> Sorry to hijack Oo, just seemed appropriate to ask in this thread


As someone who in 22 years has NEVER hijacked a thread, I object strenuously.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Kinport said:


> Sorry to hijack Oo, just seemed appropriate to ask in this thread
> 
> here’s a few pics from a backyard we redid last summer:
> In progress:
> ...


Bummer, for sure. Looks like a nice project, the property looks great. I have no concrete wisdom to share. But... I want to say: As a contractor myself (until recently, I'm thinking) it is refreshing to see someone willing to accept responsibility for an issue (whether or not your work is at fault,) being prepared to address it to maintain a relationship with an already difficult client, and come in looking for advice in order to improve the finished product (either for the repair, or for down the road on the next one.)

Good luck getting this taken care of. I hope it's as easy and painless as possible.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Everything Breaks - Warranties, Protection Plans, Coverage


Everything Breaks provides Extended Warranty & Protection Plans for the electronic devices like Smartphones, Tablets, E-readers, Laptops, Appliances & Television.




www.everythingbreaks.com





I blame the concrete.
Ps was MarkO near it


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Kinport said:


> Sorry to hijack Oo, just seemed appropriate to ask in this thread
> 
> here’s a few pics from a backyard we redid last summer:
> In progress:
> ...


I'm no seameant slinger but I do occasionally stay at an Holiday Inn Express......
When the pad in my shop was poured the contractor used Sonotubes as a form to leave a gap around the poles which were in sonotubes and then they put felt in the gap to keep crap oot.
My guess is in your case the sonotubes created a stress riser around the sonotubes when the pad was shifting due to seasonal weather changes and cracked the seameant


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Kinport said:


> Sorry to hijack Oo, just seemed appropriate to ask in this thread
> 
> here’s a few pics from a backyard we redid last summer:
> In progress:
> ...


I think a joint from the pier out to the corner may have helped.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Kinport said:


> Sorry to hijack Oo, just seemed appropriate to ask in this thread
> 
> here’s a few pics from a backyard we redid last summer:
> In progress:
> ...


I highly doubt it's a concrete or base issue looking at the pictures, and to be completely honest, I'd expect to see most of those cracks the way it's jointed (sorry for the tough love).

I would start by wrapping every sono tube with 1/2" "Deck-o-Foam" or similar expansion material that has a lot of cushion. A few layers of sill sealer with duct tape will suffice also. Make sure the expansion goes all the way down to the bottom of the concrete slab. The way it is now, the sono tubes are rough enough that they don't allow the slab to move up or down due to frost, or laterally as the concrete was shrinking.

I always joint to the center of every sono tube, both ways. Work your joints off of the sono tubes and every inside corner, and fill in any other joints after that. Sometimes this means a lot more joints than the homeowner may want to see, but with control joints, they are function first, aesthetics second. One of my motto's is "It's far easier for me to explain why I put so many joints in rather than try to justify why there's one random crack in the slab". Often times, sawing the joints in a job like this makes the joints less obvious due to their thinner profile. Sometimes, we use a combination of tooled and swan joints, as well.

Try to avoid square drains/catch basins (crocks/baskets/etc....) all together. Round drains (I like the 8" Sioux Chief Fat Max drains personally) are much more forgiving, but in your case with the rain chain drain, you'd still have to cut an intersecting joint to the drain. If you're dead-set on using the square, at least turn it on an angle so the control joint lines up with 2 corners of the drain.

If you get inside corners that you have a sense may want to crack outside of joint, you can help keep the crack in the joint by working a margin/pointing trowel into the joint when it's still wet, as deep as possible. Sawing the joint down deep the next morning will help do the same thing, assuming it already hasn't cracked. Throwing a few extra rebar inside the corner at a 45 degree angle helps keep the crack tight if it were to form as well.


Expansion joint: DECK-O-FOAM - Expansion Joint Filler - W. R. Meadows

Drain: Drainage | Commercial Drainage | On-Grade Drains | Standard On-Grade Drains | FatMax™ | FatMax™ Large-Capacity Floor Drain Sch. 40 Hub


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

BUFF said:


> I'm no seameant slinger but I do occasionally stay at an Holiday Inn Express......
> When the pad in my shop was poured the contractor used Sonotubes as a form to leave a gap around the poles which were in sonotubes and then they put felt in the gap to keep crap oot.
> My guess is in your case the sonotubes created a stress riser around the sonotubes when the pad was shifting due to seasonal weather changes and cracked the seameant


That makes perfect sense 



jomama45 said:


> sorry for the tough love).


Don’t be, it’s much appreciated, as is the detailed response. My background is not in concrete(obviously). I do maybe 75-100 yards a year for projects we are already doing dirt work on, and a lot of what I know is self taught. I appreciate an expert sharing info freely.

I think you and @BUFF nailed it. Slab Movement, my guess is mostly shrinkage, was inhibited by the sonotubes, which in turn created stress in the pad and caused it to crack. I’ll rip that section out and use some type of expansion material to create 1/2” of space between to slab and sonos so they’re completely isolated. Thanks for everyone’s help and suggestions.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

3 rules of concrete

It is gunna get hard
It is gunna crack
And no one is gunna steal it


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Kinport said:


> Sorry to hijack Oo, just seemed appropriate to ask in this thread
> 
> here’s a few pics from a backyard we redid last summer:
> In progress:
> ...


Sorry for the delayed response, but JOE Mama already posted a long winded version of what I would’ve…..always expansion joint between concrete (patio/sidewalk in this case) that doesn’t have footings, from concrete (sonotubes/foundations/etc) that does.


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