# Fisher MM1 - Not going in to float mode - Angles hoses hooked up in reverse



## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Hi All,
I have an older Fisher MM1. All controls work accept for float mode. I can raise, angle left and right. I am lower the plow if I hold the joystick in the "lower/float" position. When I let go of the joystick and it returns by itself to the neutral/middle position the plow stops lowering. I have the six pin joystick as shown in the attached picture

The plow went in to float mode at the end of last season. I am getting ready for the coming year and that is when I discovered it will not go in to float mode.

The plow is the Fisher Solenoid Electric Hydraulic Pak. The service manual is number 21462_110198 in case it needs to be referenced.

While I was getting it ready for the season this year, I hooked up the left and right angle hoses in opposite ports, which made the plow angle left when I pressed right on the joystick and right when I pressed left on the joystick. I then removed the hoses and connected them to the correct ports, so that the plow angled left when I pushed left and right when I pushed right.

I can not pull the lift ram down, I am assuming because the plow will not go in to float mode.

I have two questions:

1) Would hooking up the angle hoses to the incorrect ports and then angling the plow left and right and then hooking up the angle hoses to the correct ports and angling the plow cause the plow to not go in to float mode?

2) If the answer to 1) is no, then where else should I start to diagnose the "no float" issue?

If there are other details I can provide, please let me know and I'll b happy to do so.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Can you adjust the quill (open it up more)?

When you're pushing it down while in float, is the engine still running (has to be for me to push the cylinder down on my Western)?

This is an older thread .... corroded wire was the cause for one guy

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/help-fisher-wont-go-down.131428/


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Hold down the joystick for about 3 sec, should go into float. Go out and stand on the lift ran and maybe jump on it.

Might need to look at the packing nut and try to loosen it just a tad. And put a little lube on the cylinder to soften the material.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

To seville09 - When you say is the engine still running I am supposing you mean the truck engine? I'll check that. I can't recall if I have ever tried to push the cylinder down without the truck running. I hope it's that simple. Thank you for the suggestion.

To dieselss - I did loosen the packing nut for the up/down ram thinking that may be the issue, unfortunately that didn't help. I'll try holding it down for at least three seconds and see if that help. Thank you for your suggestion.

This will be my third season plowing (only my driveway). Seems like every year there is something to tinker with and an opportunity to learn. I guess tinkering goes along with owning a plow....? Thoughts?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Get or make a long set of alligator leads. On the float valve. Connect one to battery ground. With your feet away from the plow. Connect the other terminal to battery positive. If no good. Put a jack under the plow. Remove the valve. Lower the jack, did plow go down. If yes, replace the valve.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

To Randall Ave:


> Get or make a long set of alligator leads. On the float valve. Connect one to battery ground. With your feet away from the plow. Connect the other terminal to battery positive. If no good. Put a jack under the plow. Remove the valve. Lower the jack, did plow go down. If yes, replace the valve.


I am not sure where the float valve is that you are referring to. Is it behind the electrical cover as soon in the picture? If so, how do I determine which leads are for the float valve? If not, can you point me to the right location to find the float valve? I am assuming by using the alligator clips we are by-passing the joystick control? If it does go down when using the alligator clips, does that indicate there is something not making good contact in the wiring between the joystick and the control box on the plow?

When you say put a jack under the plow do you mean under the blade or under the plow frame, so I can jack the plow off from the ground?

Thank you for your suggestion.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Yes behind the cover. Float valve will have the white wire with yellow tracer connected to it.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

If it goes down with alligator clips then yes something is wrong with wire going to it or controller not sending power.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

The jack is there for two reasons. One, so you have both feet. Two if you remove the valve with the plow up, and not supported. You are going to get a bath.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

86turismo said:


> To seville09 - When you say is the engine still running I am supposing you mean the truck engine? I'll check that. I can't recall if I have ever tried to push the cylinder down without the truck running. I hope it's that simple. Thank you for the suggestion.


Yes - truck engine has to be running and control has to be in float in order to push the lift ram down all the way by hand (at least I have to on my Western).


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Hi All,
I finally had a chance to tinker with the plow tonight.

I have attached pictures of the valves and valve cover. The float valve is in the top-right of the picture, as stated by Western1 it is the white wire with yellow trace.

@seville009 - unfortunately having the truck running and holding the joystick in float mode for at least 3 seconds did not allow the plow to go in to float mode.

@Western1 - I removed the factory ground and power cables from the leads on the valve. I then connected one alligator clip from the ground on the valve directly to ground on the battery. The I clipped one end of another alligator clip to the positive side of the battery. I touched the other end of that same alligator clip to the power side of the float valve. The plow would go down while I had the alligator clip connected to the power side terminal on the float valve. As soon as I removed the alligator clip from the power side terminal on the valve the plow would stop going down. This is the same behavior I see when using the joystick.

@Randall Ave - do I remove the entire valve assembly or do I just need to remove the outer nut in order to allow the fluid to come out of the float valve port? If I have the plow supported when I remove the valve and then lower the jack and the plow goes all the way to the ground then is it pretty safe to say the float valve is bad? Is it typical for the valves to go bad quite often? Just wondering if I should have a spare valve the left and right angle as well. Do you have any idea how much replacement valves are? Is it best to get replacement valves directly from Fisher or a Fisher dealer or are the valves something I could find on Amazon or other online retailer? The torque specs are listed on the inside of the cover. How accurate do the torques need to be when I re-tighten the valves? Can I just snug them up or do I need to use a torque wrench?

Thank you all for sharing your expertise. Hopefully I'll have this plow going soon.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Problem is not with the valve. If putting power to it lowers the plow then it works. Problem is then the controller most likely not keeping power out through that wire to allow Plow to continue to float.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Rubber band around the joystick.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Or spring on the lift chain?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

When it's in float, is there power out at the valve?


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Summary of the behavior I am experiencing:
All of the below are performed with the truck engine running and the joystick switch in the "On" position and the indicator light on the joystick lit

1) Plow will lift, and angle left and right using joystick
2) Plow will lower while I am holding the joystick in the "lower/float" position
3) If I stop holding the joystick in the "lower/float" position the plow will stop lowering even if the blade is not all the way to the ground
4) If I hold the joystick in the "lower/float" position until the blade is all the way on the ground and then at least three seconds (I have tested by holding it for more than a minutes) and I get out of the truck I can not pull down on the lift chains to pull the lift ram to its lowest position.
5) If I raise the plow with the joystick, then connect power from the battery to the float valve terminals the plow will lower while there is power to the valve terminals, but will stop lowering when remove power from the terminals even if the blade is not all the way to the ground

* One thing I did not try is connecting the float valve directly to the truck battery, lowering the blade all the way to the ground, leaving the float valve connected directly to the truck battery and then pulling on the lift chains to see if I could lower the lift ram. Question: If I can pull the lift ram down with the float valve continuously connected to the battery, would this indicate that the joystick is not keeping power to the valve after I have moved the joystick to the "lower/float" position?

*From reading the manual I understand that the plow should stay in "float" mode until the joystick is used to raise or angle the plow and then float mode is cancelled. Question: I am understanding correctly?

* When I move and hold the joystick to the "lower/float" position the power indicator light on the joystick goes out. Should the light go out and stay out when I push and hold the joystick to the "lower/float" position and then turn back on when it returns to the center position?

* I have used the plow for 3 season. For the three season I have been using the plow, I have only had to "tap" the joystick to the "lower/float" position and release then the blade would go all the way to the ground without me needing to continually holding the joystick in the "lower/float" position. Question: is this the proper behavior? Should the blade go all the way to the ground by just "bumping" the joystick to the "lower/float" position or is proper behavior to have to hold the joystick in the "lower/float position" until the blade lowers to the height I choose?

@Randall Ave


> When it's in float, is there power out at the valve?


* I am thinking I would need to use a rubber band or some other method to hold the joystick in the "lower/float" position and then use a AC/DC multi meter to see if there is power at the valve when "it's in float" or should I just push the joystick to "lower/float" position, then let the joystick return to the center position and then check for power at the valve with an AC/DC multi meter?

@Western1


> Or spring on the lift chain?


What do you mean by this?

I apologize for the long post, but I thought it might be helpful to have a summary of what I have done in one "Reply"

Thank you for continuing to help me trouble-shoot and learn.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I think you may need a new controller. (Joy stick).


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Your controller is what "controls" the power to float. 
If you stop sending power to the cool yes it will stop and never go into float.

So, push down in the controller for the 3-5 secs. then test light for power and ground at the cool.
If you don't have power suspect the 
controller.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

> Your controller is what "controls" the power to float.
> If you stop sending power to the cool yes it will stop and never go into float.
> 
> So, push down in the controller for the 3-5 secs. then test light for power and ground at the cool.
> ...


Just to be sure I understand what you said dieselss:

After I push the controller to "down/float" for 3 - 5 seconds and release it so it returns to the center position, then connect a test light (a light that will light when it has power) to the float valve terminals and see if the light turns on. If it does, then the controller is supplying power to the valve and if not then the controller is not supplying power. Is that correct?

Thank you!


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes that's correct


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

I finally had some time to take another look at the "no float" issue. I connected a test light to the float valve terminals. The light would light and stay lit while I held the controller in the "down/float" position, until I released the stick and it returned to the neutral position. As soon as I released the stick the light would go out. So it appears that the controller is not sending power to the float valve once I release the stick.

I had my son hold the stick in the "down/float" position and I was able to pull the lift head down. As soon as he released the stick I was no longer able to pull the lift head down.

Questions:
1) Could it be faulty wiring that is the cause anywhere from the controller all the way to the valve control box, such as a bad ground, bad connection, corroded connection etc.? Or if the float valve is receiving power when I hold the stick in the "down/float" position does that mean the wiring is 100% OK? Is there anything else I can try to determine the exact cause of the issue?

2) Does anyone have experience with trouble-shooting/repairing a faulty controller? I did open the controller and all seems well based on a visual inspection. The buttons inside the controller depress and return to their normal position freely.

Thank you,
Scott


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Take truck and plow to dealer, see if dealer will let you try another controller.
Well I would call first to make sure they will.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

SOLVED: I am not sure if there is a way to mark this thread as solve. If there is please let me know.

While I was going through all of the wiring for the plow after my last post I discovered that the ground wire that goes from the "I" (ignition) side of the solenoid to the negative battery terminal was broken. I did not think that would solve the issue, so I didn't hook up the plow to test it out. I plowed for the first time this season today and the plow drops all the way to the ground as soon as I move the joystick in to down/float position. So it seems the broken ground from the Ignition side of the solenoid to the negative battery terminal was the cause of the plow not going in to float mode. Hoping this may help someone else.

Thanks again for all of the advice!

Happy New Year!!


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

I terminal?
Is this an actual plow solenoid?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

While we are all glad that your plow is working, nothing at the solenoid is going to affect the plow going into float.

Incidentally, if the solenoid says "ignition", it means you probably bought it from NAPA or the like, and it's not a plow solenoid but rather a starter solenoid. That means that it very likely is not designed for continuous duty use, so you should probably replace it with the right one.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

When you get a chance, post a picture of the solenoid.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

@dieselss, Randall Ave, 
I have attached a picture of the solenoid.  This is the original solenoid that was with the plow when I purchased used four years ago. I purchased the plow used from a private seller. I am open to suggestions for what I should be using for a continuous duty solenoid. I plow only my driveway and once in a while clear out my neighbor if we get more snow than he can handle with his walk behind snow blower. I plow on average 5 - 8 times per year.

@cwren2472, not sure why the plow is now going in to float mode. Perhaps while I was rechecking the wiring I got a better connection somewhere....?

Thanks,
Scott


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Well guys I have another issue for you. Tonight I was plowing and all was going well. Then about 30 minutes in to plowing the plow would not drop and no matter what position I moved the joystick to the plow would only angle left.

I tried running a jumper wire from the battery terminals, positive and ground to the terminals on the valves. I could not get the plow to drop, angle left or angle right. I used the jumper wire while having the joystick on and the joystick off, as well as having the controller plug connected and disconnected.

With the issue I had earlier this year with the plow not going in to float and now this behavior what do you guys think? Is my joystick finally toast...?

Thanks,
Scott


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

#1) In regards to the solenoid, if the starter solenoid fails your plow will either a) stop working, or b) the motor will stay running until it dies, so it would be wise to replace it before either of those happens. This has nothing to do with your current problem

#2) As several people mentioned, your problem with the plow not going into float was a defective joystick. If the plow was lowering before but not going into float, then everything was hydraulically fine. The joystick just wasn't keeping the coil energized.

#3) Since you know the joystick is bad, replacing it would be step one. I know it's expensive and it sucks. Is this the cause of your current problem? Unknown, unfortunately. It could be, or it could be something else. You mentioned "jumping the valves." If you jumped all the valves correctly and got no reaction from the plow, then you'd have major issues going on. But since you said it was angling left with the controller, yet you couldn't get it to angle left by jumping the valves, then I suspect that you may not know how to jump them.

So, it sounds like you need to start with a new controller and then give us more information after that if you are still having more issues.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Two things, replace the controller, as many have stated. And that's the wrong solenoid. Go to the Western dealer and get the correct part.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

86turismo said:


> Is my joystick finally toast...?


Yes


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Hi All,
I finally had a chance to have my controller tested. The repair shop said that it's working fine.

After I had the controller tested:


Because I could not get the plow to lower when I moved it to the down/float position I loosened the nut for the lift ram until the plow dropped to the ground. 
Because the plow will only angle left, I removed both angle hoses, so I could get the plow back to straight position. 
After that I filled the reservoir to the proper level. When I moved the controller to the raise position, the plow would raise. 
Then I moved the controller to the down/float position the plow did not lower, angle left or angle right. 
Then I moved the controller to the left position the plow angled left. 
Then I moved controller to the right position the plow angled left. 
Then I moved the controller to the raise position and the plow raised.
Then I moved the controller to the down/float position the plow did not lower, angle left or angle right. 

I tried a friend's controller on my plow. My plow exhibited the same symptoms as I just described above. So I think it's not a controller issue.

Unfortunately my friends straight blade fisher has different controller and power connectors than mine so I couldn't use his truck side harness to test if perhaps my truck side harness is bad.

Last season I replaced the truck side controller harness plug (not the entire controller side harness).

I have a few questions:

Could a bad ground on the power cable(s) or the controller cable(s) be causing the behavior I am seeing?
Could a faulty/stuck valve be causing the behavior I am seeing?
In a previous post in this thread someone mentioned that the solenoid would have no impact on the plow angling, raising or lowering. Is it possible a faulty solenoid would cause the behavior I am seeing?
What else can I do to try to determine where the issue might be?

The behavior I am seeing started during my last plowing session after I had been plowing with no issues for 30 minutes.

Thank you all for continuing to help me find a solution to this problem!
Scott


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Did you install the correct solenoid, cause the one in your picture is the wrong part.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Lower Plow and disconnect plugs. Take valves out of valve body and check for damage,movement and debris.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

He is showing a Ford starter solenoid. Depending how he has it wired. When he operates the plow, that solenoid is putting 12 volts positive to the ground wire circuit. I could be wrong, but it can not be helping. His no float issue, has he connected direct power and ground to the valves magnet?


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Oooo that’s not good but how could it have worked then not? I know electrical things can be wierd


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## Mebes (Feb 7, 2004)

Looking at the hydraulic schematic i'm not sure how right could cause the blade to go left unless it was all going thru the crossover valve. If this is the case it would have been struggling to move...

I'm thinking you have 2 different ground issues one truck-side and one plow-side.

(Truck-side) does the float light come on on the controller when you press and hold down after a few seconds?
If it does not you have a ground connection issue most likely between the I terminal on the solenoid and the battery again.
The small orange black wire attached to the solenoid actually brings ground from the solenoid to the controller. It's only purpose is to complete the latching circuit that holds the controller in float mode. If the float light won't stay on then this connection (or the solenoids connection to the ground) is bad.
There should be 2 wires on this terminal.

(plow side) Since your joystick sends (+) positive signals to the solenoid (to run the pump) and also the coils to operate the valves on the plow you need to check all of your grounds.
Since weak ground connections can sometimes show up as good using a digital volt meter, using an old school test light with an actual bulb (not LED) is the preferred method since it actually places a load on the connections.
Check from the (+) terminal on your battery to each of the coils to make sure that all of the the black/orange wires (that are daisy chained to all 3 coils) on your plow have good grounds. If they don't, follow that wire up to the main ground connection on the plow motor and check the connection there.

90% sure this is the correct mechanics guide--> http://library.fisherplows.com/fisherplows/pdffiles/21935_120098.pdf

Like the guys stated above if your solenoid has 2 small terminals labeled (S) and (I) you have a starter solenoid not a plow solenoid. 
It will work the same but will not last very long and it would be a good idea to swap it out soon.

Good Luck
S


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Back with some more info.

1) I cleaned and inspected all ground connections on plow side and truck side

(-) battery terminal
Connection at battery terminal (pump ground cable & cable coming from solenoid
Ground connection on solenoid
Ground connection on pump (pump ground cable and ground cable going to valves
All ground terminals on each of the three valves
--> Results (no changes) from the last post

2) I hooked up a test light to each of the valves individually. I disconnected the power cables so the pump would not run

Test 1: connected test light to 2W valve terminals
Results for each action below:
Move joystick to down/float position
Test light came on and stayed on

Move joystick to right position
Test light stayed on

Moved joystick to left postion
Test light stayed on

Moved joystick to raise position
Test light went out and stayed out

Moved joystick to down/float position
Light stayed on



Test 2: connected test light to 3W valve terminals

Results for each action below:
Move joystick to down/float
No light

Moved joystick to raise position
No light


Move joystick to left position
Light stayed on while I held the joystick in the left position - light went out when I released the joystick and it returned to the neutral position

Moved joystick to right position
Light stayed on while I held the joystick in the left position - light went out when I released the joystick and it returned to the neutral position



Test 3: connected test light to 4W valve terminals

Results for each action below:
Move joystick to down/float
No light

Move joystick to right position
No light

Move joystick to left position
Light stayed on while I held the joystick in the left position - light went out when I released the joystick and it returned to the neutral position

Move joystick to up position
Light stayed on while I held the joystick in the left position - light went out when I released the joystick and it returned to the neutral position

Moved joystick to float position
Moved test light to 2W terminals
Light came on and stayed on



3) Observed the activity of the power light on the joystick.

Move power slider switch to On postion
Light came on and stayed on
Move joystick to raise, left or right position
Light stays on

Move joystick to down/float position
Light goes out and stays out as long as I hold the controller in the float postion

Release joystick to neutral position
Light comes on and stays on



According the what I read in the plow manual after moving the joystick to the down/float position briefly (no continuous hold for 3 seconds or more) with activate float mode and the blade will drop all the way to the ground. Float is only cancelled by moving the joystick to the raise position. Moving the joystick to right or left position will not cancel float.

If any of you can verify that the test light tests I ran confirm that the controller is sending the correct signal(s) to the valves I would be very grateful!!!

I did not pull the valves. I wanted to post an update with my latest tests before I got more involved with removing the valves in hopes my test might help you give me some advice on what to do next.

I have attached a picture of the valve cover and valves.

Thank you for sticking with me on this!!!! :weightlifter:Thumbs Up


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Make sure the black/orange wire at the valves ground is good. You have power backfeeding. Remove those wires from the magnets, use an ohm meter, or use your test lamp. Put the test lamp clamp on the trucks positive battery, Stab the black/orange wire, does the test lamp light up?


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Thank you Randall Ave for your reply.

During my tests I left the ground and positive wires connected to the valve terminals and pulled them slight off so I could connect the test light to the valve terminals underneath the factory wires with alligator clamps. I thought this would be the best way to ensure I was using the power and ground from the fatory wires.

During my tests I did not use the truck battery ground or positive terminals to supply ground or power to the valves.

Do you still think I have need to test the ground for power backfeeding, since I tested as described above?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Check the ground circuits with a good OHM meter.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

I have very little experience with using a multi-meter or ohm meter.

Could you give me specific instructions, such as what terminals or wires to connect the meter probes to, what readings I should be looking for on the meter, etc?

As a way to eliminate the factory ground circuit for the valves as the possible cause I was thinking of doing the following. If the following might help trouble-shoot, please confirm my process is valid.


Disconnect the blank/orange wire from the pump ground
Disconnect all of the ground wires (black/orange) from the 3 valves
Use alligator clips to make a connection between the battery ground and the ground terminal on W2
User to more alligator clips to jump from the ground terminal on W2 to the ground terminals on W3 and W4
Test the plow for movement
Thank you,
Scott


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

I performed all 5 steps below:

Disconnect the blank/orange wire from the pump ground
Disconnect all of the ground wires (black/orange) from the 3 valves
Use alligator clips to make a connection between the battery ground and the ground terminal on W2
User to more alligator clips to jump from the ground terminal on W2 to the ground terminals on W3 and W4
Test the plow for movement
This did not resolve the issue.

I ran a jumper wire from the "i" terminal on the solenoid to the battery ground. When I move the joystick to raise, left or right the wire smoked and some of the shielding on the wire melted. I also noticed the factory wire that goes from the "i" terminal on the solenoid to the battery ground showed signs of being over heated. I tried another solenoid and had the same wire smoking and melting.


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## Mebes (Feb 7, 2004)

Looking back at your description of the problem in post 32 and the hydraulic schematic I think I see it now (hopefully Randall Ave can confirm)
Looks like S3 valve (the 4W valve) is stuck in the shifted position.

Your 3 joystick tests in post 38 show correct operation so you just need to make sure that the grounds are in place otherwise the current may flow thru a different coil looking for ground.


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## Mebes (Feb 7, 2004)

86turismo said:


> I
> I ran a jumper wire from the "i" terminal on the solenoid to the battery ground. When I move the joystick to raise, left or right the wire smoked and some of the shielding on the wire melted. I also noticed the factory wire that goes from the "i" terminal on the solenoid to the battery ground showed signs of being over heated. I tried another solenoid and had the same wire smoking and melting.


I think you may have hooked the wrong wire to ground on the solenoid.
- Brown/Red is positive signal from controller. It should be on 1 side of the solenoid all by itself
- Orange/Black is the ground feed to the controller. It should be on the side of the solenoid that is connected to the battery ground (-).

What you describe sounds like you have brown/red on the ground side.

When you use the joystick it's sending power directly to ground causing the wires to melt.

Also: Try tapping gently a couple of times on the 4Way valve to see if it frees up and lets your plow back down.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Randall Ave said:


> Two things, replace the controller, as many have stated. And that's the wrong solenoid. Go to the Western dealer and get the correct part.


Still not taking the second part of advice here.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

dieselss said:


> Still not taking the second part of advice here.


Why do you only get one like per post???

This deserves at least 10...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mebes said:


> I think you may have hooked the wrong wire to ground on the solenoid.
> - Brown/Red is positive signal from controller. It should be on 1 side of the solenoid all by itself
> - Orange/Black is the ground feed to the controller. It should be on the side of the solenoid that is connected to the battery ground (-).
> 
> ...


He has a FORD starter relay, instead of the correct western part. Unless he gets the right part, he will keep melting wires.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Here is a copy of the wiring schematic I have been using.









@Mebes
The two orange/black wires tied together in the diagram at the solenoid are shown connected to the negative battery terminal. I have the two orange black wires tied together and connected as shown to the "i" terminal on the Ford style solenoid. I have the black/red wire connected to the "S" terminal on the Ford style solenoid. I will try giving the W4 valve a little tap.

In regards to the solenoid, it's the same style Ford solenoid I have had from the time I purchased the plow. I did replace it earlier this year as a preventative measure during my annual preventative maintenance steps.

I will take the advice and upgrade to the proper Western solenoid if someone can confirm that having this Ford style solenoid is or is not the root cause of the issue at hand. If not, it would be encouraging to see the plow moving as it should (raise/lower/left/right) before I spend more money on electrical components that I cannot return.The plow does move without any power issues (moves quickly and steadily) using the Ford solenoid..... _other than the current issue I am facing_ 

Thank you all again for continuing to help me with this.


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## Mebes (Feb 7, 2004)

The Ford starter relay is grounded thru the base.

- Take the 2 Orange/Black wires off The (I) terminal and hook them together and place them under one of the mounting screws of the solenoid (or loosen the screw and pinch them between the solenoid and firewall) while you are troubleshooting.
- Hook the Brown/Red wire to the (S) terminal.
- Nothing should be hooked to the (I) terminal.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Your assuming the base is a good ground but it may not be.


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## Mebes (Feb 7, 2004)

Yes...
But if the base was not grounded this whole time the plow would have never moved in the first place since a connection to (S) and (I) without a ground would not operated the solenoid in the first place.
Either way one of the 2 wires I asked him to move to the base is a ground wire directly tied to the battery's ground.

I can see what happened here with the initial failure "plow not staying in float"
The bad solenoid he replaced had different internal wiring.
The 2 small terminals on the old solenoid were coil (+) (-)

The (S) terminal on the new solenoid is (+) from the joystick.
The (I) terminal on the new solenoid is (+) out of the solenoid when activated.

When he installed the new solenoid he tied the battery ground wire, and ground wire that feeds the float latching circuit joystick to the (I) terminal.

When he used the plow in any direction that called for solenoid activation he was shorting the (I) (+) terminal directly to ground eventually melting or breaking the ground wire that went from solenoid to the battery.

Since the joystick sends (+) triggers to the coils and only needs ground to latch the float relay everything kept working except float.

I'm 99% sure that moving the grounds will fix the solenoid activation/hot wires problem, then hopefully we will be back to the plow not dropping anymore which I am 90% sure it is a stuck (in) 4 way valve... 
Unless it's some kind of weird back-feed issue thru a diode in the controller as a result of (+) coming up the ground wire that was on the (I) terminal on the solenoid.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

I will move the wires according to Mebes recommendation. As I was laying awake last night trying figure this whole thing out I recalled I had taken the ground wire off from the pump ground that's connected to the ground terminals on the valves and never hooked it back up. Then I did some more testing and I think this is why the ground wire to the battery (-) smoked.... (I have made this mistake in the past :hammerhead:

@Mebes, earlier this year when the plow would not go in to float I did notice the the ring terminal connector that is connected the battery (-) was broken . After replacing the ring connector the plow did go in to float.

Tonight I will move the wires and give the 4W valve a little tap. Is it OK to tap on the valve while I have the joystick either in the raise/lower/right/left position or should I only tap on it when there is no power going to it?

Have any of you every replaced these valves? Is it pretty straight forward, just unscrew them and screw the back in? Are there springs, magnets, etc that I will need to be sure I don't drop when I remove them? Any tips or tricks you can give me if I do need to replace the valve would be appreciated.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

The ground wire for the valves needs to be connected. That should not smoke any wires though.


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## Mebes (Feb 7, 2004)

The valve comes out assembled nothing should else should fall out when removed.
Make sure plow is supported and/or crack the hoses to relieve pressure on the system before removal.

There is a moving part inside the cartrage that I believe is stuck in the up position so you may need to give the valve a tap on the work bench to free it up.
Normal operation you should he be able to move it in and out by probing with a pick in the hole on the bottom.
More info in the mechanics guide I linked earlier on page 53.

If your valve was jammed and you plow starts working again I recommend valve replacement.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Should I only remove the cartridge valve or should I remove the entire assembly for 4W that the cartridge valve sits in and the remove the cartridge valve once I have the entire assembly for 4W on the bench?

thank you,
Scott


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

When you remove it that is the assembly


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

"Valves" - I removed 4W it was pretty iced up. I removed the other two valves. 3W was iced up a bit. 2W was clean. I cleaned them all up and now the plow raises and lowers as it should. Thank you all for explaining how to remove them and giving me the courage to do so. 

Two Saturday's ago I drained the system and put in fresh fluid. I drained the fluid by removing the drain plug from the underside of the reservoir. I also removed the hoses so I could angle the plow manually by hand and push the fluid out of the hoses and angle cylinders. 

Does the fluid in the Valve Manifold Block drain back to the reservoir and out the drain plug or is there another way to drain the fluid from the Valve Manifold Block?

With this plow it always seems like I take 1 step forward and two steps back.

1) Yesterday after I cleaned the valves and reinstalled them I tried to angle the plow. The blade was angle all the way to the left during the past two weeks. We have had many below zero nights during this time. The blade would only move about 1" to the right. I could only move it back to the left the same 1". Do you think I have frozen fluid in the angle cylinders? I pulled the hoses and tried to angle the blade manually by hand, but it would not budge.

2) Tonight after plowing for about an hour I pushed the joystick to the raise position and the truck stalled. This has happened one other time about 4 weeks ago, which was the last time I plowed. At that time I let the truck sit until the next day. The next day I reconnected everything and the truck did not stall when I moved the joystick to the raise/left/right positions. After this happened tonight, I put the truck in park and tried to start it, but it would not start. I pushed the joystick to the raise position and noticed that the solenoid did not make the clicking sound and the pump motor did not run. I pulled the power cable going from the battery (+) to the solenoid and when I did it arced at the battery (+). I am assuming the solenoid was still making contact on the inside of the solenoid. I also heard a clicking noise from the solenoid and I assumed the solenoid de-enerigzed breaking the circuit. I left the cable disconnected and I was able to start the truck. I reconnected the power cable at the battery (+), pushed the joystick to the raise position and the truck stalled again. Removed the cable from battery (+) and I was able to start the truck.

-> Now that I have the raise/lower issue behind me for now I am going to buy the correct solenoid.
-> My question is regards to this issue is (for my further learning and understanding), does the behavior point to the solenoid body not getting a good ground or is this a symptom of not have the correct solenoid?

Thank you again for the help!! I'm not sure what I would do without all your suggestions and time!!


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

One more question for the night. Can someone post links to the correct part from an online store(s)? I want to make sure I get the right one. I am guessing I can get one cheaper somewhere online than at a local Fisher/Western dealer.

Thanks again!
Scott


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Try plowpartsdirect,com 56131k


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## Mebes (Feb 7, 2004)

86turismo said:


> Two Saturday's ago I drained the system and put in fresh fluid. I drained the fluid by removing the drain plug from the underside of the reservoir. I also removed the hoses so I could angle the plow manually by hand and push the fluid out of the hoses and angle cylinders.
> 
> Does the fluid in the Valve Manifold Block drain back to the reservoir and out the drain plug or is there another way to drain the fluid from the Valve Manifold Block?


The only thing you may have missed here is to put the plow in float first and push the lift lift ram all the way down before you start.

Otherwise what you did is the best way to remove as much oil from the system as is possible.
Other than removal of the valves (which is not necessary on any oil change) there is no way to drain the valve block.

The bigger question here is why/how you got water in your system in the first place?
Has it been a few years since the last oil change?

If your plow sits outside all year long, condensation can form inside the system when sunny days turn to cool nights. If this is the case you should drain the entire system (as you described above) at the beginning of each plow season.
If your plow is stored inside, pushing down the lift ram and a drain/refill after a quick cleaning/inspection of the pump inlet filter and the magnet is probably all you need.



86turismo said:


> 1) Yesterday after I cleaned the valves and reinstalled them I tried to angle the plow. The blade was angle all the way to the left during the past two weeks. We have had many below zero nights during this time. The blade would only move about 1" to the right. I could only move it back to the left the same 1". Do you think I have frozen fluid in the angle cylinders? I pulled the hoses and tried to angle the blade manually by hand, but it would not budge.


There are a couple of cross over reliefs installed in the valve body that come in to play when the blade is moving back and forth. It is possible that they were iced as well, but if you disconnected the hoses and were unable to move the blade, the ice was most likely jamming up in the fittings as the oil was trying to exit the cylinders.

My suggestion here is to bring the blade inside somewhere that is heated, and let it sit for several hours to melt any ice that may be left in your system.
After the system has warmed, raise, angle, lower etc. several times to mix the fluid up a bit, and then drain/refill the entire system including angle cylinders (same as before) to get as much fluid out as is possible.



86turismo said:


> 2) Tonight after plowing for about an hour I pushed the joystick to the raise position and the truck stalled.


This could be a couple of things
- Low system voltage (old battery, alternator problems, battery connection issues, etc.)
- Excessive amp draw from the pump on the plow (pump motor going bad, plow solenoid going bad, bad connections at or on the way to the pump motor)



86turismo said:


> This has happened one other time about 4 weeks ago...
> After this happened tonight, I put the truck in park and tried to start it, but it would not start.


Would not crank?
Cranks fast but wont start?
Crank slow?



86turismo said:


> I pulled the power cable going from the battery (+) to the solenoid and when I did it arced at the battery (+). I am assuming the solenoid was still making contact on the inside of the solenoid. I also heard a clicking noise from the solenoid and I assumed the solenoid de-enerigzed breaking the circuit. I left the cable disconnected and I was able to start the truck. I reconnected the power cable at the battery (+), pushed the joystick to the raise position and the truck stalled again. Removed the cable from battery (+) and I was able to start the truck.


Just to be clear you removed the battery wire at the solenoid but you saw the spark back at the battery?

Sounds like your solenoid was stuck (bad solenoid) but if this was the case your plow pump motor should have been running....

My gut feeling here is that all of your connections at the battery (truck side included) need to be removed, cleaned, greased and re-installed.

Be careful when troubleshooting this one, sparks at the battery (Especially one that has been charging/discharging recently) can be extremely dangerous.


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## Mebes (Feb 7, 2004)

86turismo said:


> "
> I pushed the joystick to the raise position and noticed that the solenoid did not make the clicking sound and the pump motor did not run. I pulled the power cable going from the battery (+) to the solenoid and when I did it arced at the battery (+). I am assuming the solenoid was still making contact on the inside of the solenoid. I also heard a clicking noise from the solenoid and I assumed the solenoid de-enerigzed breaking the circuit.





Mebes said:


> Sounds like your solenoid was stuck (bad solenoid) but if this was the case your plow pump motor should have been running....


One more clarification here...
- Did the truck suffer a complete power loss when this stall happened?
- If it was a complete loss of power did you switch off key headlights, etc before removing the (+) solenoid wire.

If your truck had no power when you moved the wire, the spark you saw may not have been caused by the plow or solenoid, it may have been caused by the load coming from the truck (headlights, heater, radio, etc.) if these things were still turned on.

Basically if your truck wiring had a bad connection at the battery the movement of the wire may have been enough to reset the connection, or maybe heat because of a poor connection caused the truck to loose power, and just happened to cool down enough to fix itself right at the moment you started messing with the wires.


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Mebes said:


> The only thing you may have missed here is to put the plow in float first and push the lift lift ram all the way down before you start.
> 
> I did read in the manual that the plow should be stored in float mode and pull the lift ram all the way down. I do store it that way. Unfortunately with the valves being iced up I could not pull the lift ram down.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice to be careful.

As always I appreciate your suggestions!!!!


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

Mebes said:


> One more clarification here...
> - Did the truck suffer a complete power loss when this stall happened?
> 
> No there was not a complete power loss. I stilled had lights on the dash and headlights.
> ...


#######################################


Mebes said:


> The only thing you may have missed here is to put the plow in float first and push the lift lift ram all the way down before you start.
> 
> I did read in the manual that the plow should be stored in float mode and pull the lift ram all the way down. I do store it that way. Unfortunately with the valves being iced up I could not pull the lift ram down.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice to be careful.

As always I appreciate your suggestions!!!!


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## 86turismo (Oct 31, 2014)

I apologize for the double post above. One other note. My truck power cables are connected to side mount and the plow power cables are connected to top post terminals on the battery


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