# Bidding help!!!



## Par-Bob

hello everyone I am new to this sight and really enjoy what I've seen!!

I'm a mid-size company servicing 68-70 locations for plowing and salting in SE Michigan and looking to make the jump to the big time locations. 

We have management companies we've worked with for years asking us to bid larger locations and until now we have declined but are ready and just looking for feedback. 

Currently looking at a mall that has just over a million sq ft of asphalt/ concrete for plowing/salting seasonally. Your basic mall with large parking lot and islands spread throughout. 

I've heard prices anywhere from $75,000 to 375,000 per year and just want to be in the ballpark!! Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## SnoFarmer

Sounds about right.


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## John_DeereGreen

What's the biggest site you have serviced?

Asking the question you did leads me to believe that this is probably well over your grasp of service.

A million square feet of pavement of any kind is enough to easily sink you if you screw it up.


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## Defcon 5

Let's start with this.Bob...A million square foot account...How much equipment would it take to service properly?...Also..How much salt would you use on average per app?...


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## leolkfrm

if you are making good money at what your doing and there are min headaches, then i ask Why? ...


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## ponyboy

What does it need to be for you to make money 
And if you can't figure it out u are not ready 
Hint should be more towards the higher end my local mall is $300,000 plus a year down from $400,000 plus 15 years ago


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## Randall Ave

Isn't this a re-run? Do you have the man power, and equipment? Take what you are doing, then break the price down say per acre. Then do the math.


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## Par-Bob

Thanks for the replays thus far, I have a couple cat wheel loaders. One with a 14' push box and one with a 10'. 
Also have a couple ATVs set up with blades. 
I'm figuring about 10-12 tons salt par app and about 50 bags calcium on walks. Thinking 2 loader operators, 2 pick ups with blades and a 4 man sidewalk crew.


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## Mark Oomkes

Par-Bob said:


> I've heard prices anywhere from $75,000 to 375,000 per year and just want to be in the ballpark!!


I think $75,000 is two low.

And $375,000 is 2 hi.


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## Defcon 5

Do you think with the equipment listed...That is adequate to service a Million Sq. Feet in an appropriate amount of time??...


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## BUFF

Defcon 5 said:


> Do you think with the equipment listed...That is adequate to service a Million Sq. Feet in an appropriate amount of time??...


I'm wit ewe on this. At a min another loader / pusher, another pickup and double the sidewalk crew.


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## Defcon 5

BUFF said:


> I'm wit ewe on this. At a min another loader / pusher, another pickup and double the sidewalk crew.


Mind your own Bobber....


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## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> I'm wit ewe on this. At a min another loader / pusher, another pickup and double the sidewalk crew.


You're agreeing with Todd???

Someone make a note in the annals of history.


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## BUFF

Defcon 5 said:


> Mind your own Bobber....


Bobbers are for kids and drunks......... I'm a fly fisherman and on the move.....


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> You're agreeing with Todd???
> 
> Someone make a note in the annals of history.


I never said anything that he could agree with...I was just Axing questions so I can help out this gentleman


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## Mike_PS

again, help with the bid/question at hand or move on please

thanks Thumbs Up


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## John_DeereGreen

Par-Bob said:


> Thanks for the replays thus far, I have a couple cat wheel loaders. One with a 14' push box and one with a 10'.
> Also have a couple ATVs set up with blades.
> I'm figuring about 10-12 tons salt par app and about 50 bags calcium on walks. Thinking 2 loader operators, 2 pick ups with blades and a 4 man sidewalk crew.


I would want 2 loaders running 14-16 foot boxes. I'd have a skid and wing plow cleaning cars, loading docks, etc and setting up for one of the loaders. Other loader stays in larger open areas by its self. I don't think I'd waste the time with trucks here, other than possibly 1 with central hydros for salting and let it plow with all the other equipment.

You never gave square footage of walks but I'd replace 2 ATV's with one subcompact tractor and drop salter. We don't do much bagged walk ice melt so can't help you there.

What are you planning to spread the salt on the parking area with?

I still don't think you're ready for an account of this size, your equipment list is better suited for an account about half.


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## 1olddogtwo

Michael J. Donovan said:


> again, help with the bid/question at hand or move on please
> 
> thanks Thumbs Up


Excellent point MJD....!!!


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## Mark Oomkes

Hope someone doesn't hit the brakes too hard.


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## LapeerLandscape

John_DeereGreen said:


> I would want 2 loaders running 14-16 foot boxes. I'd have a skid and wing plow cleaning cars, loading docks, etc and setting up for one of the loaders. Other loader stays in larger open areas by its self. I don't think I'd waste the time with trucks here, other than possibly 1 with central hydros for salting and let it plow with all the other equipment.
> 
> You never gave square footage of walks but I'd replace 2 ATV's with one subcompact tractor and drop salter. We don't do much bagged walk ice melt so can't help you there.
> 
> What are you planning to spread the salt on the parking area with?
> 
> I still don't think you're ready for an account of this size, your equipment list is better suited for an account about half.


I wouldnt quite say he isnt ready for a lot this size, he has large equipment so I would think he has some knowledge of what he's doing. So its 1 million sqft, thats what about 24 acres, most walmarts are about 13 acres. Its a mall so my guess is it isnt open 24 hrs so from that point it could be a little less demanding just more sqft. I'm just talking and putting some idea's out there. I think one thing that a lot of people dont think about is how much salt that lot will eat up and having the capitol and place to keep/load coordinate all that.


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## Defcon 5

LapeerLandscape said:


> I wouldnt quite say he isnt ready for a lot this size, he has large equipment so I would think he has some knowledge of what he's doing. So its 1 million sqft, thats what about 24 acres, most walmarts are about 13 acres. Its a mall so my guess is it isnt open 24 hrs so from that point it could be a little less
> 
> demanding just more sqft. I'm just talking and putting some idea's out there. I think one thing that a lot of people dont think about is how much salt that lot will eat up and having the
> 
> capitol and place to keep/load coordinate all that.


Good points....But..I know when I was ready to take on larger accounts...I knew my costs and how to bid these accounts in a manner where they were serviced properly and most importantly at a profit for me...Last place I would be trolling for pricing advice is here...

I will give the Op a bit of advice to help him out...You mentioned the contract would be Seasonal...I would not touch it without atleast a Three year contract...


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## LapeerLandscape

Defcon 5 said:


> Good points....But..I know when I was ready to take on larger accounts...I knew my costs and how to bid these accounts in a manner where they were serviced properly and most importantly at a profit for me...Last place I would be trolling for pricing advice is here...
> 
> I will give the Op a bit of advice to help him out...You mentioned the contract would be Seasonal...I would not touch it without atleast a Three year contract...


I agree and $75,000 to $375,000 are so far apart he needs to start over and come up with his own number.


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## John_DeereGreen

LapeerLandscape said:


> I wouldnt quite say he isnt ready for a lot this size, he has large equipment so I would think he has some knowledge of what he's doing. So its 1 million sqft, thats what about 24 acres, most walmarts are about 13 acres. Its a mall so my guess is it isnt open 24 hrs so from that point it could be a little less demanding just more sqft. I'm just talking and putting some idea's out there. I think one thing that a lot of people dont think about is how much salt that lot will eat up and having the capitol and place to keep/load coordinate all that.


To each their own, but asking questions as broad as have been asked seems to indicate less experience than is needed to successfully manage it.

Todd has a very good point...the cash outlays for materials and labor for an account this size can be rather substantial if there is a bunch of weather quickly.


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## ponyboy

What size cat loaders with those size pushers could be a compact or mini like a 906
Like I said he needs to know what he needs to make and not worry about what it is going for 
With malls it's slot of late nights extra hours clean ups moving it to prevent refreez 
You would need more then what u have now to service a mall and then not be able to service your other accounts 
i don't see you being ready for this yet


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## FredG

A friend of mine got a 3yr Contract on a mall. I don't know the exact sq ft. or acreage, He used a loader and two leased hoes. He scored the lot for $190k and the sidewalks for $45k. I have no idea where his profit margin is.


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## JD Dave

FredG said:


> A friend of mine got a 3yr Contract on a mall. I don't know the exact sq ft. or acreage, He used a loader and two leased hoes. He scored the lot for $190k and the sidewalks for $45k. I have no idea where his profit margin is.


My cousin's uncle stayed in a Holiday Inn once, he didn't tell me where though.


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## Mark Oomkes

Lmao


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## FredG

JD Dave said:


> My cousin's uncle stayed in a Holiday Inn once, he didn't tell me where though.


And!! lol


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## Mark Oomkes

JD Dave said:


> My cousin's uncle stayed in a Holiday Inn once, he didn't tell me where though.


This one time at band camp..................


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## Mike_PS

again, back on topic...


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## FredG

Michael J. Donovan said:


> again, back on topic...


Get them pot stirs, Mike. :clapping: Thumbs Up


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## John_DeereGreen

I think we scared the OP off with too much honesty and too many facts. 


FredG said:


> A friend of mine got a 3yr Contract on a mall. I don't know the exact sq ft. or acreage, He used a loader and two leased hoes. He scored the lot for $190k and the sidewalks for $45k. I have no idea where his profit margin is.


Leased hoes? Didn't realize that was legal anywhere but Nevada.


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## leolkfrm

Michael J. Donovan said:


> again, back on topic...


ya know mike, a little playful banter helps hold interest


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## Mike_PS

leolkfrm said:


> ya know mike, a little playful banter helps hold interest


a little is fine, however, not needed in every single thread


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## Mark Oomkes

Michael J. Donovan said:


> a little is fine, however, not needed in every single thread


I kind of resent this implication........there are lots of threads I don't take oof course.

None of the threads I don't post in, I don't take oof course. Thumbs Up


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## SnoFarmer

If life was all ones and zeros ....


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## 1olddogtwo

SnoFarmer said:


> If life was all ones and zeros ....


Hey it's bad enough it's full of smart ***** and dumb *****

Need more info from OP


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## Defcon 5

1olddogtwo said:


> Hey it's bad enough it's full of smart ***** and dumb *****
> 
> Need more info from OP


He gave the info...Atleast what he was planning on using..Never gave walk Sq. Footage...


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## fartbox333

The largest lots I've done might be half of that but every property is unique and has its own characteristics so hard to throw a number out. I'd throw a price at it though. Just know your numbers. How much snow do you get out there per season? I'd definitely like at least 3 year contract with accumulation limits. Gotta find out how much of that million sq ft is sidewalk. The labor and bagged material on that can be all over the place. Retail/malls have a lot of foot traffic so the entrances will need constant babysitting while open. Also contact your insurance company to get a quote for this specific property. Gotta know that number before you do anything. Those places love slip and falls. If you think you're really up for the challenge just do your homework. And find good reliable help! You're only as good as your crew. Good luck.


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## F250/XLS

Par-Bob said:


> hello everyone I am new to this sight and really enjoy what I've seen!!
> 
> I'm a mid-size company servicing 68-70 locations for plowing and salting in SE Michigan and looking to make the jump to the big time locations.
> 
> We have management companies we've worked with for years asking us to bid larger locations and until now we have declined but are ready and just looking for feedback.
> 
> Currently looking at a mall that has just over a million sq ft of asphalt/ concrete for plowing/salting seasonally. Your basic mall with large parking lot and islands spread throughout.
> 
> I've heard prices anywhere from $75,000 to 375,000 per year and just want to be in the ballpark!! Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## emisygrl731

Par-Bob said:


> hello everyone I am new to this sight and really enjoy what I've seen!!
> 
> I'm a mid-size company servicing 68-70 locations for plowing and salting in SE Michigan and looking to make the jump to the big time locations.
> 
> We have management companies we've worked with for years asking us to bid larger locations and until now we have declined but are ready and just looking for feedback.
> 
> Currently looking at a mall that has just over a million sq ft of asphalt/ concrete for plowing/salting seasonally. Your basic mall with large parking lot and islands spread throughout.
> 
> I've heard prices anywhere from $75,000 to 375,000 per year and just want to be in the ballpark!! Any thoughts would be appreciated.


First of all, I see that none of the replies so far have been one bit helpful. If you're in the market for sarcasm, this is the place to go. And if you want a bunch of commentary on what-if scenarios for which you weren't even seeking advice this is also the place to go. No one can judge your preparedness to take on a job of this size, and certainly not based on the limited info you've shared. Obviously you've got solid experience and a good reputation considering they're coming to you asking for your participation in the bid process.

I don't know where you got those prices (and that is a wild difference), but without a formula no pricing advice is valid. So, here are some questions to help you formulate a formula!

1) get all measurements for areas to be cleared: parking lots, streets and loading docks (where loaders and plows will be used) plus sidewalks etc.
2) what equipment is sufficient to do the job in a reasonable amount of time (wheel loaders, plow trucks, salt trucks, sidewalk plows/brushes, loader for salt, etc)? make an equipment list
3) based on the equipment list, how many operators do you need (including sidewalk crews with hand tools and machine/truck operators)? make a crew list
4) how much of the equipment do you already own? what is cost of leasing any needed equipment that you don't own? get pricing on that
5) based on crew list, how many hours do you estimate it will take to clear an average snow? make a list broken down by type of equipment/service (snow boxes, plow trucks, salt trucks, sidewalk crew with blowers/shovels or machines?) you can factor how much area they're clearing and how long it should take. tally your payroll for an average storm and for a light storm (salt only)
6) how much salt will you be applying (considering all scenarios: presalting, a light snow, average snow, heavy snow with multiple applications). you can calculate this using coverage per ton and comparing that to the area you're salting. don't forget to cover yourself in event of price changes. in 2014 we had salt trucked to Michigan from PA when we couldn't get it in Detroit and that was triple our usual cost, so a clause about salt pricing is a good idea "if salt prices go above $____ per ton then our price goes up" (like a price differential)
7) what other ice melt products are involved? like CaCl. what does the contract say about ice-melt products? what is cost for CaCl if using and how much do you need based on coverage? calculate cost of this for average storm
8) how much fuel will you use per snow event?
9) finally, what are the snow averages for your city/area for the past several years? this is pretty important and maybe you've tracked the info yourself, but this info is also available online. look for historical/archived weather data (not by state but by city) and use this info combined with your own data to draw conclusions on averages

Your factors: average number of plows per season, average number of saltings (salt-only and post plow saltings), how much salt per application (including pre-salt), how much CaCl per application, cost of equipment (rentals), how much payroll, how much fuel, etc. Be careful not to miss anything! After calculating your actual costs, decide what your overhead recuperation should be (%) (insurances, rent, and other expenses that keep your business running) and what your profit should be - decide on a % markup.

You can utilize information from some of your smaller jobs by answering the same questions about the jobs for which you do have experience, compare size, and consider how that can help you to calculate a property of this size.

Wrote this out in a hurry, so hopefully it's helpful and without too many errors/typos.

Best of luck. Confidence always wins.


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## Mike_PS

We can close this one down


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