# Has anyone ever thought of this? Using a hand held concrete hammer to chip ice



## sebyhood (Sep 13, 2017)

As the title suggests I'm trying to go into business as an ice removal costs guy. I'm thinking residential would be more entry level for someone like me with only a truck my red wings and a dream. 

Main question had anyone experience with chipping ice with power tools? Almost everyone I talk to says it will "damage the concrete" but I can ram a hand ice chip into the ground and you wouldn't know. 

I'm not sure how those hammers work never operated one but seems like a good money maker. Let's say I charge $60 for one normal sidewalk with 1" thick clear ice takes me 45 mins maybe an hour and I can do that all week. 10 houses before you pay off the hammer then everything after can go to the BANK!

There's so much competition in snow removal I'm hoping I can find my niche. Thanks for reading.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Doing it by hand is alot different than with a power tool. I’d think a power chipper device would go through solid ice like butter and you wouldn’t know you’ve hit the concrete/asphalt until it’s too late. 

Even if it didn’t damage it, it’d be awful slow 

If there was a good solution out there for chipping ice, I’m sure it wouldn’t be a secret.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

sebyhood said:


> As the title suggests I'm trying to go into business as an ice removal costs guy. I'm thinking residential would be more entry level for someone like me with only a truck my red wings and a dream.
> 
> Main question had anyone experience with chipping ice with power tools? Almost everyone I talk to says it will "damage the concrete" but I can ram a hand ice chip into the ground and you wouldn't know.
> 
> ...


Are sidewalks covered in 1" thick sheets of ice a big issue where you are?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I really like this idea, pretty sure we need a video of how good this works.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

You need this....it rents for 6000.00 a month, 30K new.

We us them all the time to demo out glued down carpet, vct and ceramic tile.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

1olddogtwo said:


> You need this....it rents for 6000.00 a month, 30K new.
> 
> We us them all the time to demo out glued down carpet, vct and ceramic tile.
> 
> View attachment 187788


Does that have a snow tire option?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

cwren2472 said:


> Does that have a snow tire option?


Bet it's got 100% traction tho


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

I use the concrete hammer to get ice off my windshield all the time.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I use the concrete hammer to get ice off my windshield all the time.


And you still have a windshield? That's clear?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I use the concrete hammer to get ice off my windshield all the time.


That's just silly. You could just throw boiling water on it like the rest of us.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> Does that have a snow tire option?


2800lbs stupid heavy.

I've spent enough money on rental this year to buy two of them.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

sebyhood said:


> As the title suggests I'm trying to go into business as an ice removal costs guy. I'm thinking residential would be more entry level for someone like me with only a truck my red wings and a dream.
> 
> Main question had anyone experience with chipping ice with power tools? Almost everyone I talk to says it will "damage the concrete" but I can ram a hand ice chip into the ground and you wouldn't know.
> 
> ...


 It's good to have dreams, unfortunately this is not a good one. You would be sure to damage something and be to slow at it. The vibration alone could damage something not even hitting the concrete blacktop underneath. Forget about it. Good Luck.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

1olddogtwo said:


> You need this....it rents for 6000.00 a month, 30K new.
> 
> We us them all the time to demo out glued down carpet, vct and ceramic tile.
> 
> View attachment 187788


That looks like a mobility scooter with a plow. Every retirement home should have one. Is there a blower option?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

the Suburbanite said:


> That looks like a mobility scooter with a plow. Every retirement home should have one.


Been there, done that.






Looks like blowers are an option as well


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> Been there, done that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Genius


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

sebyhood said:


> As the title suggests I'm trying to go into business as an ice removal costs guy. I'm thinking residential would be more entry level for someone like me with only a truck my red wings and a dream.
> 
> Main question had anyone experience with chipping ice with power tools? Almost everyone I talk to says it will "damage the concrete" but I can ram a hand ice chip into the ground and you wouldn't know.
> 
> ...


I can assure you that if you go ahead with this business plan you'll have the "niche" all to yourself. You'll have no competition.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

explaining why this would, or wouldn't, be a viable option is fine...not necessary to make the thread a joke

thanks


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> explaining why this would, or wouldn't, be a viable option is fine...not necessary to make the thread a joke
> 
> thanks


 Hmm..,so you're saying these guys are funny. I picture you reading these posts with a resigned half smile on your face, slowly shaking your head and thinking , "If only I had stayed in college! Back on topic,I personally don't think this will work,you will damage the surface,it will be to time consuming,you need a source of electricity,unless you get a gas operated.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

leigh said:


> Hmm..,so you're saying these guys are funny. I picture you reading these posts with a resigned half smile on your face, slowly shaking your head and thinking , "If only I had stayed in college! Back on topic,I personally don't think this will work,you will damage the surface,it will be to time consuming,you need a source of electricity,unless you get a gas operated.


no, not what I think at all (and I did graduate from college, just so you know) and yes, back on point


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> no, not what I think at all (and I did graduate from college, just so you know) and yes, back on point


OP,
You idea has merit however it has several flaws when you take what's been said already into consideration. Damaging the concrete being the biggest issue which could end up being thousands of dollars to replace/repair. Also you realize you need to have a general liability insurance policy to cover any damages or accidents for work you have performed? Once you've run the numbers to cover insurance, the equipment and operating cost I think you'll find yourself upside down.

1" of ice seems to be an excessive amount and the frequency of these 1" ice events was asked but not answered.

Rather than looking for a niche to deal with heavy ice events look at how to prevent it from being an issue.


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

I think its a brilliant idea. I would be all in. Way ahead of the curve. I would use social media and some Youtube vids to really promote it. Get a lot of tweats and likes and that kind of stuff. Get paid in bitcoin so gov't doesnt have their hand in your gold box and run with it.

Merry Christmas all and much success on this new adventure.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

Why I would never use a chipping hammer. You for sure would leave damage. The bigger question is why is the ice 1” thick to start?!


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

rick W said:


> I think its a brilliant idea. I would be all in. Way ahead of the curve. I would use social media and some Youtube vids to really promote it. Get a lot of tweats and likes and that kind of stuff. Get paid in bitcoin so gov't doesnt have their hand in your gold box and run with it.
> 
> Merry Christmas all and much success on this new adventure.


"Bitcoin" was a nice touch


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Bitcoin eh?

I had a property a few years ago that their gutters ran right on to the sidewalk and in to the parking lot. It was a mess, and a liability nightmare. Someone suggested a ridiculous solution of putting salt in panty hose and stuffing that in the downspout. Worked great! I would still have to treat some refreeze, but I didn't have the inch plus of ice I was dealing with before. I dropped the customer the next season due to him constantly complaining about price. It wasn't worth it to me, but I learned a little trick.

Anyway, the point is, is there another solution that doesn't require taking a tool designed to break up concrete, and using it on top of concrete? I would be hesitant to try it, but I suppose it would probably work. Just might work too well....


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Try a flail mower.....might actually work. Not sure how long the chains would last though.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Here are two alternatives.

This is available in the US. Doesn't look like it would be hard to fabricate.

http://conterraindustries.com/snow_icescraper(1).html

This next one is from Europe, and I don't know if it is available in the US, or if it would be feasible given the litigation situation, but it is an interesting approach...just roughen the surface to get traction.

https://www.zaugg-ag.ch/e_detail2_sp.php?t=Ice+scraper+EG+10S+%2F+EG+10H&read_group=259


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

When I sold Deere equipment we’d pull a 2730 ripper around the parking lot with an 8360R to break the ice up. Seems like a logical solution to your problem.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

I can apprciate the idea that you want to find your niche. As others have said, concrete damage.
You already figured out your payback for equipment. That tells me you put some thought into this.
Wht don't you pretreat with salt or liquid brine. After the storm go back with hand chipper and snow blower.
Way cheaper then snow plow with spreader on the back


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)




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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I have contemplated the idea of using an ebling type blade with a serrated edge to scarify gravel drives instead of sanding.
Some of my drives are long enough to go through half a hopper. It would save me both product and time running back to the yard. 
A box might be too much, maybe a landplane type of serrated blade would be better.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Here are two alternatives.
> 
> This is available in the US. Doesn't look like it would be hard to fabricate.
> 
> ...


Stihl needs to make a Kombi-head abrader attachment.
Edit: or a snowblower retrofit-kit


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Here are two alternatives.
> 
> This is available in the US. Doesn't look like it would be hard to fabricate.
> 
> ...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

John_DeereGreen said:


> When I sold Deere equipment we'd pull a 2730 ripper around the parking lot with an 8360R to break the ice up. Seems like a logical solution to your problem.


Did the ripper do much damage to the asphalt?

I'd do it on my own property, but I'd be afraid to use it on a customers...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

JMHConstruction said:


> Did the ripper do much damage to the asphalt?
> 
> I'd do it on my own property, but I'd be afraid to use it on a customers...


Hopefully they did concrete, and if they didn't, it would be their own asphalt


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## sebyhood (Sep 13, 2017)

fireside said:


> Why I would never use a chipping hammer. You for sure would leave damage. The bigger question is why is the ice 1" thick to start?!


That's thin ice. Lowest starting point


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## sebyhood (Sep 13, 2017)

Mark Oomkes said:


> View attachment 187820


Are you saying I'm trying to go baalls deep


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

leigh said:


> it will be to time consuming,you need a source of electricity,unless you get a gas operated.


They make pretty good sized battery chipping guns now a days.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Philbilly2 said:


> They make pretty good sized battery chipping guns now a days.


If your brave enough...


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BUFF said:


> OP,
> You idea has merit however it has several flaws when you take what's been said already into consideration. Damaging the concrete being the biggest issue which could end up being thousands of dollars to replace/repair. Also you realize you need to have a general liability insurance policy to cover any damages or accidents for work you have performed? Once you've run the numbers to cover insurance, the equipment and operating cost I think you'll find yourself upside down.
> 
> 1" of ice seems to be an excessive amount and the frequency of these 1" ice events was asked but not answered.
> ...


This used to be a super common thing here in Alaska 
Poor building codes on older buildings meant lots of heat escaping through to roof 
You would literally get a foot of ice build up on sidewalks overnight.

Lots of people used to come here and "just do it" without sufficient building code or quality enforcement.
In the last few decades the enforcement has gotten much better and things like ice build up or entire sheets of snow/ice sliding off a roof and tackling or even decapitating someone are now uncommon, 
But when I was here in the 90s... we used to make private's chip ice on the sidewalks all winter long... and just about every snow removal contractor that had been in business for a while up here, has tool shed with a collection of ice choppers that are rarely used now. 
I don't know where the OP is from, but maybe it's similar to anchorage in the late 90s?

But they don't call this place the last frontier for no reason… for example we just started using salt/calcium on roads and parking lots 4 years ago.. been using it on sidewalks in bag form , but not parking lots or roads until real recently... got to be the LAST place in the northern hemisphere.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

seville009 said:


> Try a flail mower.....might actually work. Not sure how long the chains would last though.


If your really good you could try a Fecon

On a serious note a flail retrofitted with some sort of pliable material infused with carbide for bite would be an epic game changer.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)




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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Year round use

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D2G4CV8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_ADLhCb5TAP0ZG


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

JMHConstruction said:


> Did the ripper do much damage to the asphalt?
> 
> I'd do it on my own property, but I'd be afraid to use it on a customers...


Most of the lot was gravel so it didn't really matter. They used copious amounts of salt on the asphalt. We discovered it was actually possible to drift a tractor if you sunk the ripper in while turning corners. It turned into quite a game.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I'll share my "game changer" .Everyone knows that the enemy of ice is the dreaded rising temperature. Not sure if everyone knows the "little secret" that ice turns to a liquid at 32deg fah,0 cent for those in our northern states in Canada.Treat surface with a copious(a lot) amount of ice melt then apply infrared heat (really hot) this combo will convert the ice to water and then if heated enough will turn to the liquid into a vapor, strange alchemy I'll admit.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I've been using this with great success

https://www.ebay.com/i/291632939914...08ef1670acc6ed76ef75ffbf481f&var=590665868086


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

leigh's idea brings to mind boiling water while making brine...would work also.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

We have several properties with heated sidewalks 
Worst drain angle ever 
They just dribble off to the edge of my parking lot and create a icy death derm of slip n fall hazard 

It doesn’t take too long to apply ice melt and break it up/plow it away 
But I’ll be damned if I can figure out how to prevent it, it keeps reforming 

It’s a dilution issue with pretreat


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

m_ice said:


> If your really good you could try a Fecon
> 
> On a serious note a flail retrofitted with some sort of pliable material infused with carbide for bite would be an epic game changer.


A brine applicator spraying a fine mist of calcium chloride/brine mix would be a high end way to "game change" and offer a service above and beyond after flail mowing their walks with carbide blades.


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

You can use this in an emergency I guess, but I recomend it only for gravel


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

This looks a lot safer 
https://www.gemplers.com/product/21...4345!&ef_id=XB9oNAAABO1DLfvD:20181223104924:s


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

From the lessor first Roman snow fighters... “ Chariots of Fire”


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

MSsnowplowing said:


> This looks a lot safer
> https://www.gemplers.com/product/21...4345!&ef_id=XB9oNAAABO1DLfvD:20181223104924:s


Safer is not always as much fun.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Never had much luck melting ice with open flame heat. Gray hair will have grew in by the time your done. :laugh:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> Safer is not always as much fun.


 You still thrill seeking? Pretty good for a fellow FOG. :laugh:


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> Safer is not always as much fun.


 Not seeing how 5 burner torch is safe in the hands of a sidewalk monkey.....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG said:


> Never had much luck melting ice with open flame heat. Gray hair will have grew in by the time your done. :laugh:


What if the hair is already grey?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if the hair is already grey?


Then you'll croak


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if the hair is already grey?


I've set my self on fire. More than one time.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if the hair is already grey?


 Probably turn to dust.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Randall Ave said:


> I've set my self on fire. More than one time.


After reading some of the posts from
People that no longer are allowed here, you'd want to.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> After reading some of the posts from
> People that no longer are allowed here, you'd want to.
> View attachment 187892


That bad?  :laugh:


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> Safer is not always as much fun.


Come on, you wouldn't have a blast using that, I know I would. 
I would try and boost it up a bit more.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Go big or go home...


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Thermodynamics are against a heat melting method....same reason why snow melters generally are too expensive.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Thermodynamics are against a heat melting method....same reason why snow melters generally are too expensive.


 I was being facetious ,not sure about the rest of this fatuous factious group.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

leigh said:


> I was being facetious ,not sure about the rest of this fatuous factious group.


The usual Shenanigans.......:laugh:


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

This thread gave me an idea for how to put my new wet blaster to work. Just substitute the crushed glass media with rock salt and blast away high pressure salt brine I will dominate the market when those once a decade major ice storms happen


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Why don't we just prevent the ice from forming on the sidewalk in the first place?
An inch of ice is exceptionally significant, infact just about anywhere, it'd be a *CRIPPLING* event, and you'd have trees and wires down everywhere.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

leigh said:


> I was being facetious ,not sure about the rest of this fatuous factious group.
> 
> View attachment 187906


I figured, but thought I would make a feeble attempt to get it back toward the actual topic.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I figured, but thought I would make a feeble attempt to get it back toward the actual topic.


 Thumbs Up I've wondered from the beginning of this thread if the op was even serious, or just yanking our chain!


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Thermodynamics are against a heat melting method....same reason why snow melters generally are too expensive.


Is that why it costs NYC a million dollars an inch every time it snows?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Why don't we just prevent the ice from forming on the sidewalk in the first place?
> An inch of ice is exceptionally significant, infact just about anywhere, it'd be a *CRIPPLING* event, and you'd have trees and wires down everywhere.


I think it's leaking onto the sidewalks and freezing there 
Not literally falling from the sky in a blanket

That would be one hell of a cataclysm the way you describe it

Can you imagine finding your car encased in an inch of ice in the morning?

"Hey Mabel! I don't think the credit card is going to clear the windshield today!... go get a concrete hammer!!"


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Thermodynamics are against a heat melting method....same reason why snow melters generally are too expensive.


Why is it that it doesnt work? I'll confess I tried to use a bernz-o-matic once to melt ice packed at the end of my driveway that I couldn't break up and it didnt so much as annoy the ice, let alone melt it

I figured, really hot flame, just gotta get it above freezing, yeah, no...


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> Why is it that it doesnt work? I'll confess I tried to use a bernz-o-matic once to melt ice packed at the end of my driveway that I couldn't break up and it didnt so much as annoy the ice, let alone melt it
> 
> I figured, really hot flame, just gotta get it above freezing, yeah, no...


I'll wait for aeronautic engineer guy to explain it 
Hell do a better job

With that being said 
I've thawed out a frozen lock a time or two just by cupping my hands and breathing on it

It's all about volume vs heat source vs environment 
If you were able to isolate the environment in which you were trying to flame out the Ice... it would work


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Why is it that it doesnt work? I'll confess I tried to use a bernz-o-matic once to melt ice packed at the end of my driveway that I couldn't break up and it didnt so much as annoy the ice, let alone melt it
> 
> I figured, really hot flame, just gotta get it above freezing, yeah, no...


You just answered your own question...


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You just answered your own question...


Oh cmon 
We're waiting for a better explanation than "the ice freezes faster than it melts"


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

tpendagast said:


> Oh cmon
> We're waiting for a better explanation than "the ice freezes faster than it melts"


Maybe @Hydromaster can help...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

tpendagast said:


> I've thawed out a frozen lock a time or two just by cupping my hands and breathing on it
> 
> It's all about volume vs heat source vs environment
> If you were able to isolate the environment in which you were trying to flame out the Ice... it would work


I've whizzed on frozen locks and frozen snowmobile carbs, works quick and real good.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

let's keep, or get back, on point or we can close this out


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> I'll wait for aeronautic engineer guy to explain it
> Hell do a better job
> 
> With that being said
> ...


Thawing locks is exactly what I carry the bernzo in my car for. It works great on those


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Masssnowfighter said:


> This thread gave me an idea for how to put my new wet blaster to work. Just substitute the crushed glass media with rock salt and blast away high pressure salt brine I will dominate the market when those once a decade major ice storms happen
> View attachment 187907


That machine brings back bad memories...... What you doing the vapor blaster?


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

1olddogtwo said:


> That machine brings back bad memories...... What you doing the vapor blaster?


I just bought it for my own equipment maintenance, not looking to get in the blasting business. Why the bad memories? Because of the machine or just vapor blasting in general?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> Thawing locks is exactly what I carry the bernzo in my car for. It works great on those


Yea

Usually me too
Until I loan it out and forget about it

I also carry some of that lock spray which is handy 
Until yknow it runs out and I forget to get more... 
then ill huff and I'll puff until I thaw your lock out!


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

tpendagast said:


> Yea
> 
> Usually me too
> Until I loan it out and forget about it
> ...


If you take the lock off, dry it out good and soak it in a can of oil it should last for a while.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

LapeerLandscape said:


> If you take the lock off, dry it out good and soak it in a can of oil it should last for a while.


The trick is getting the lock off in the first place

Then there's the issue of it being the customers lock to the property we service 
Can't really take it home and dry it out


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

tpendagast said:


> The trick is getting the lock off in the first place
> 
> Then there's the issue of it being the customers lock to the property we service
> Can't really take it home and dry it out


Got it. I soak mine that go on my enclosed snowmobile trailer and they are good for the year.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Got it. I soak mine that go on my enclosed snowmobile trailer and they are good for the year.


So until next Monday?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Masssnowfighter said:


> I just bought it for my own equipment maintenance, not looking to get in the blasting business. Why the bad memories? Because of the machine or just vapor blasting in general?


2012 USS Miami submarine had a bad fire caused by an arsonist.

We were originally brought in make the sub respirator free. The fire burned for 11 hours, soots levels were incredible high.

Originally we were supposed to ice blast, what the Navy in their infinite wisdom decided was the CO2 off gas levels would be too high without testing even though I had a 20000 CFM dust collector on the dock to evacuate the air.

They wanted us to vapor blast instead, and of course start on the bottom level and work are way up the other levels.

Each area had to be made water tight with a 10 mm heavy vinyl on the floors and entry ways of the copartments.

The machine sat on the dock, sun beating down on the water tank heating the warm water.

The temp and humidity would sky rocket in these small areas. ( It's a submarine where 6 guys lived in a 9x9.) Now combine that with a full face and tyvek suits..... Recipe for over heating/passing out, etc.

I would buy 200lbs of ice daily, and dump in the blaster to cool the water.

Afterwards we had to coat everything in Holdtight 102 to prevent flash rust.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Got it. I soak mine that go on my enclosed snowmobile trailer and they are good for the year.


Yknow... I've never had a problem with my snowmachine trailer locks 
They're the rubber coated kind, with the flap that covers the key hole... I think that's why.. insulated and covered.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

cwren2472 said:


> Why is it that it doesnt work? I'll confess I tried to use a bernz-o-matic once to melt ice packed at the end of my driveway that I couldn't break up and it didnt so much as annoy the ice, let alone melt it
> 
> I figured, really hot flame, just gotta get it above freezing, yeah, no...


Late reply.... (day job interference)

The problem is not temperature, but total energy. A handheld torch might be hot, but the total energy is small, as it only heats a small volume of air.

If we take a typical bbq tank, which has about 4 gallons/20 lb of propane, with propane having about 20,000 BTU/lb lower heating value, you get 400,000 BTU. This is enough, theoretically, to melt 2778 lb of ice, which would be about 593 square feet of ice one inch thick at 30F.

However, this would be for ice on an asbestos sheet, so no heat transfer to/from ground, with all heat going into the ice. In practice, with an open flame torch, you are heating air (about 55000 cubic feet at 400 F starting at 30F) air and then the air has to transfer the heat to the ice. However, it mixes with the outside air, reducing the temperature, and air is not a good heat transfer medium. In order to approach the theoretical value, no air heated by the torch can be above 32F when it is done transferring heat. This is not possible.

Open flame over ice would be a fraction of the energy put in (as a swag, 10%), since you will be heating air which is not in contact with the ice. Assuming 10%, this would be about 60 ft^2 of 1" ice, which will get reduced further due to heat transfer to the presumably frozen ground underneath. Also, the water you make will refreeze unless you remove it as you melt it, assuming temperatures are below freezing. Note that a typical torch kit for a 20 lb tank is about 500,000 BTU, so it will last about 50 minutes. IF we assume that heat transfer to the ground reduces the amount you can melt by 50%, you will have spent an hour, used up about $12 in propane, and melted about 30 ft^2 of 1 inch ice.

You could get closer to the theoretical value if you build a fan shaped box, with insulation on the sides and top, that the torch fed into to get better heat transfer to the ice.

As an aside, a natural draft boiler has about an 80% efficiency, which is why snow melters are so expensive to operate. At 80% efficiency, 1 bbq tank (or just under 3 gallons of diesel) melts about one ton of snow, which for a 50% density (old compacted snow) is only about 2.6 yards.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> However, this would be for ice on an asbestos sheet, so no heat transfer to/from ground,


So ground temperature WILL go up using a torch?

What if you apply salt, then use a torch?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So ground temperature WILL go up using a torch?
> 
> What if you apply salt, then use a torch?


First question, yes, but how much will depend on the heat transfer.

Second question.....I'm going to refuse to get sucked back into that particular swamp.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Second question.....I'm going to refuse to get sucked back into that particular swamp.


Just wait till someone asks you about the effect of tire size on gas mileage


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Second question.....I'm going to refuse to get sucked back into that particular swamp.


Very smart man...


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Late reply.... (day job interference)
> 
> The problem is not temperature, but total energy. A handheld torch might be hot, but the total energy is small, as it only heats a small volume of air.
> 
> ...


That makes my brain hurt a bit


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

Now, just hypothetically....

If i had a boss quick cube loaded with a blend of 95% ice, 5% beet juice, using a propane torch, no wind, turned facing the east... just thinking ...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

rick W said:


> Now, just hypothetically....
> 
> If i had a boss quick cube loaded with a blend of 95% ice, 5% beet juice, using a propane torch, no wind, turned facing the east... just thinking ...


You been hanging oot with @FredG


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

BUFF said:


> You been hanging oot with @FredG


No just tired of sitting around eating too much, drinking too much and looking at all the shiny new snow equip i bought this year that hasnt even left the shop once. Just walked the dog in a sweat shirt. Sucks


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

Thanks for buying the new equipment, its the best way to keep the snow away.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DeVries said:


> Thanks for buying the new equipment, its the best way to keep the snow away.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BUFF said:


> You been hanging oot with @FredG


 What he do, have a brainstorm? :laugh:


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Late reply.... (day job interference)
> 
> The problem is not temperature, but total energy. A handheld torch might be hot, but the total energy is small, as it only heats a small volume of air.
> 
> ...


So 2.5 yards of snow weighs a ton?

Hmmm interesting

3 gallons of diesel
Or about $9 to melt an f350 worth of snow...
Ouch


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So ground temperature WILL go up using a torch?
> 
> What if you apply salt, then use a torch?


Well since calcium is exothermic... might be better off using that!


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

rick W said:


> No just tired of sitting around eating too much, drinking too much and looking at all the shiny new snow equip i bought this year that hasnt even left the shop once. Just walked the dog in a sweat shirt. Sucks


Far enough, we've all been they and pulled through it too. Those that didn't pull through the lean times weren't prepared for them.


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