# Should I put timbrens or beefier torsion bars



## Eli1229 (Dec 9, 2020)

This is my 95 2 door tahoe w 7.5ft fisher mm1. The front end sags a good amount w the plow raised. Wondering what I should do? I've been looking at my different options but unsure what the best route would be. If someone has any recommendations or a similar setup w pictures that would help a lot.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Add some counterweight.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Have you just tightened the keys?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Timbrens before changing bars.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

I don’t think it’s that bad. Do you have the tire pressure in the front all the way up? Some counter weight would be good


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

^ like the fine gentlemen said above, put 500lbs. of sand bags/equivalent @ the tailgate you be good to go!! Your frt. end parts will be :dancing:


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## Chas0218 (Dec 3, 2020)

If you just need height you can get torsion keys and install them instead of new bars. If you go to 2500 bars you will need 2500 keys as well. I'm not sure if the front connection point is the same size as the 1500 bars. 

Weight is your call, I don't like the idea of weight because you're adding more stress to the front end by using the front tires as the pivot point for the weight but to each their own. I don't think it would matter on a 3/4 ton but on a 1/2 ton those front ends aren't that beefy to begin with.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Chas0218 said:


> I don't like the idea of weight because you're adding more stress to the front end by using the front tires as the pivot point for the weight but to each their own. I don't think it would matter on a 3/4 ton but on a 1/2 ton those front ends aren't that beefy to begin with.


Weight behind the rear axle reduces the weight and stress on the front end, which is why it's recommended.


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## Chas0218 (Dec 3, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Weight behind the rear axle reduces the weight and stress on the front end, which is why it's recommended.


I guess I don't understand the concept of it reducing stress when the amount of weight isn't changed on the front of the truck. When you add weight to the rear it doesn't raise the front suspension of the truck it merely levels the truck. That front axle only acts as a pivot point raising the blade higher but not the actual suspension. It's no different than a bigger kid on the other end of teeter totter you add more stress to the pivot point, the bigger the kid on the end the more weight on the pivot point. The smaller kid isn't getting any higher.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Chas0218 said:


> I guess I don't understand the concept of it reducing stress when the amount of weight isn't changed on the front of the truck. When you add weight to the rear it doesn't raise the front suspension of the truck it merely levels the truck. That front axle only acts as a pivot point raising the blade higher but not the actual suspension. It's no different than a bigger kid on the other end of teeter totter you add more stress to the pivot point, the bigger the kid on the end the more weight on the pivot point. The smaller kid isn't getting any higher.


It's pretty basic physics. Levers, fulcrums, that kinda stuff.

@Hydromaster had a nifty picture explaining it...think he even coloured it with his new Crayola set.


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## CCSnow (Jan 25, 2016)

Think of it like a seesaw. You add weight behind the back axle it will push up on everything in front of the axel.


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## Chas0218 (Dec 3, 2020)

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's pretty basic physics. Levers, fulcrums, that kinda stuff.
> 
> @Hydromaster had a nifty picture explaining it...think he even coloured it with his new Crayola set.


Perfect then I can see where the sky hook is used to pull up the weight placed on the front suspension. Again you aren't removing weight from the front suspension by adding weight in the rear. Mass is mass no matter where it is placed. If you ever go over scales you should an idea of how it works.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Chas0218 said:


> Perfect then I can see where the sky hook is used to pull up the weight placed on the front suspension. Again you aren't removing weight from the front suspension by adding weight in the rear. Mass is mass no matter where it is placed. If you ever go over scales you should an idea of how it works.


Actually, you are.


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## Chas0218 (Dec 3, 2020)

CCSnow said:


> Think of it like a seesaw. You add weight behind the back axle it will push up on everything in front of the axel.


Right but you still have the weight on the axle, i was referring to the weight on the axle and added stress that is on the axle after adding more weight to rear. I understand it will lift the plow higher but it won't lift the suspension of the truck. The O.P. was asking about lifting the suspension not the plow


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Chas0218 said:


> That front axle only acts as a pivot point raising the blade higher but not the actual suspension.


The rear axle is the pivot point. You are not understanding this correct.



Chas0218 said:


> Perfect then I can see where the sky hook is used to pull up the weight placed on the front suspension. Again you aren't removing weight from the front suspension by adding weight in the rear. Mass is mass no matter where it is placed. If you ever go over scales you should an idea of how it works.


The further back you move the weight behind or the more weight you add behind the rear axle will most surely will unload the front end. Ever had a tounge heavy trailer? What happens to your front suspension... it unloads, then if the trailer is tough heavy enough, it will pick your front tires off the ground. Sled pulling 101...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> The rear axle is the pivot point. You are not understanding this correct.
> 
> The further back you move the weight behind or the more weight you add behind the rear axle will most surely will unload the front end. Ever had a tounge heavy trailer? What happens to your front suspension... it unloads, then if the trailer is tough heavy enough, it will pick your front tires off the ground. Sled pulling 101...


I was kinda hoping you were going to provide a math lesson...oh well.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was kinda hoping you were going to provide a math lesson...oh well.


I will if I have too... Hoping we can just use common situations to help understand before we have to go to drawings and math formulas... :laugh:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> I will if I have too... Hoping we can just use common situations to help understand before we have to go to drawings and math formulas... :laugh:


I was just thinking that maybe suggesting that someone can lift far more weight with a lever and fulcrum than straight lifting might suffice...but I think I was mistaken.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Insert truck, it makes no difference


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> View attachment 209603
> 
> Insert truck, it makes no difference


I want the truck one...the larger tyres on the tractor changes the point of the fulcrum and negates the leverage.

Besides, the other one had prettier colours.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Yes it did, but it used words wrong.

Ets on my laptop , posibel new rendention
Useing factual words corectely too.

Ore go search.


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## Chas0218 (Dec 3, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> View attachment 209603
> 
> Insert truck, it makes no difference


You would be right if the snow plow was mounted behind the front wheels like the loader but in our case it is mounted in front of the front wheels.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Chas0218 said:


> You would be right if the snow plow was mounted behind the front wheels like the loader but in our case it is mounted in front of the front wheels.





Hydromaster said:


> Yes it did, but it used words wrong.
> 
> Ets on my laptop , posibel new rendention
> Useing factual words corectely too.
> ...


Ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tolled ewe sew!!!!!!!!!


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## Chas0218 (Dec 3, 2020)

Here is a photo that was attached by a previous member. As you see the front axle is still the fulcrum until you move the weight all the way to the back. The 1' behind the rear wheels will not unload the suspension enough without moving it back the same distance the plow is off the front of the truck. You have no way of doing this other than using some sort of frame off the back of the trailer hitch. Just adding weight to the back of a truck or SUV over the axles or offset minimally won't negate the 1000lbs.+ 4' in front of the truck.

That means you would need 1000lbs. the same distance from the rear axle to "raise" the front suspension which would level the truck but not actually "raise" until you add more than the 1000lbs.

So adding 500lbs. in the bed of the truck 1' from the rear axle will help level the truck but it will NOT reduce the weight on the front axle.

I've been a lurker for a few years before joining, I'm not entirely new to the site just decided to finally join.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Chas0218 said:


> Here is a photo that was attached by a previous member. As you see the front axle is still the fulcrum until you move the weight all the way to the back. The 1' behind the rear wheels will not unload the suspension enough without moving it back the same distance the plow is off the front of the truck. You have no way of doing this other than using some sort of frame off the back of the trailer hitch. Just adding weight to the back of a truck or SUV over the axles or offset minimally won't negate the 1000lbs.+ 4' in front of the truck.
> 
> That means you would need 1000lbs. the same distance from the rear axle to "raise" the front suspension which would level the truck but not actually "raise" until you add more than the 1000lbs.
> 
> ...


Yup as I said, the tractor is the same as in figure "D" in the diagram you found.

Weight "IS" removed from the front
And the rear axel is a folcrum as shown in figure" D" and in the tractor diagram.

The Physics is the same as in this diagram as applied to a pick up truck or a tractor .


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Where on the frame the plow is mounted is moot, Well as long as it’s not a pull plow.
Even a belly blade could be lifted up with enough counterweight


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

The word @ the playground, stats that weight @ the tailgate not only reduces stress on the frt. end, it helps out w/ reducing braking/stopping distance ??


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## Chas0218 (Dec 3, 2020)

We'll just have to agree to disagree. No biggy hope i at least entertained you guys waiting for some snow. Maybe my truck is just plain worn out because the gap on my fenders haven't changed adding weight in the back but did level the truck a little.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Chas0218 said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree. No biggy hope i at least entertained you guys waiting for some snow. Maybe my truck is just plain worn out because the gap on my fenders haven't changed adding weight in the back but did level the truck a little.


Time to break out some math.

Consider the following situation....

A truck with an 8' wheelbase, weighing 6,000 lb empty, with 4000 lb on the front axle, and 2000 lb on the rear axle. Front axle is at 0', rear at +8'

Ignore squat for the moment, and assume the frame remains parallel to the ground. (Infinitely stiff suspension and tires)

Now add a plow that weighs 1000 lb 4' in front of the front axle.

Summing the moments about the front axle, we have 1000*(-4)+2000*(+8) = 12000 lb-ft. 12000/8 = 1500 lb. Total weight = 7000 lb, so there is 5500 lb on the front axle. Note that the front axle weight increased by 1500 lb, despite the fact that the plow only weighs 1000, and the weight on the rear axle decreased by 500 lb.

We can arrive at the same number by summing moments about the rear axle. 1000*(-12)+4000*(-8) = -44000 lb-ft. -44000/-8 = 5500 lb on the front axle, and 1500 lb on the rear axle. Isn't it neat how math works?

Now, let's add a 500 lb counterweight 4' behind the rear axle.

Summing around the front axle 1000*(-4)+2000*(8)+500*(12) = 18000 lb-ft. 
18000/8' = 2250 lb on the rear axle. Total weight is now 7500 lb, so the weight on the front axle is 5250 lb, a 250 lb reduction.

Note that the weight on the rear axle has gone up by 750 lb, so you will also get much better traction in 2wd.

Thus, adding weight behind the rear axle will reduce the load on the front axle.

QED

P.S. Just throwing weight in the bed will not reduce weight on the front axle. It has to be behind the rear axle, and the further the better.


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## Chas0218 (Dec 3, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Time to break out some math.
> 
> Consider the following situation....
> 
> ...


I wrote out this long response and you know what this is like arguing politics. There is more to it than just adding weight and with the trucks of having 2 points of contact.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Chas0218 said:


> I wrote out this long response and you know what this is like arguing politics. There is more to it than just adding weight and with the trucks of having 2 points of contact.


Actually, there isn't.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Chas0218 said:


> I wrote out this long response and you know what this is like arguing politics. There is more to it than just adding weight and with the trucks of having 2 points of contact.


No snow here... we got time... all ears.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Chas0218 said:


> I wrote out this long response and you know what this is like arguing politics. There is more to it than just adding weight and with the trucks of having 2 points of contact.


Take yer truck, plow and 500-800# and go to a scale.

This is different than discussing politics where opinion rules, here physics and facts rule.

Ps I suppose weight distribution hitches are just a hoax too?

Pss your own graphic shows that we are correct , see figure "D"


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Chas0218 said:


> I wrote out this long response and you know what this is like arguing politics. There is more to it than just adding weight and with the trucks of having 2 points of contact.


My math took into account the two points of contact. In that case, the solution is easy, as I demonstrated.

To get technical, it is also unique, because you have two equations (forces and moments) and two unknowns (the axle reactions). Thus, there is one unique solution.

If you have more than two points of contact, there is redundancy in load paths, in which case you start having to take spring rates into account.


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