# New HD's &Toyota



## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

1st I watched the Daytona 500 and saw the new chevy commercial where the HD dully was pulling the train cars with the new 1/2 tons loaded on them. Made me laugh!!

2nd - I keep hearing that the new toyota in a 3/4 ton, then a 1/2 ton and better than the new Chevy blah blah blah - so you guys tell me! I don't get out alot to dealers to ask questions and the nearest Toyota dealer is 80 miles away. Then my ford friends say the new super duty is all that much better than the new HD Chevy. 

3rd - I heard from my dodge dealer here in town (neighbor) that Gm is buying them out. I did here that on the news but dont think it will happen.


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## Yaz (Apr 13, 2005)

And your point is? I wouldn't know where to start....Were you drinking during the race.. lol

1) OK.. you found it funny.
2) a)The front gvw on the Toyota is low, I forget exactly how much but I checked when I saw them at the Bike show. 
b) Ford guys say that all the time.Chevy guys say the same about Fords. That's old news.
3) NEW YORK/DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news) is in preliminary talks to buy Chrysler, the struggling U.S. arm of DaimlerChrysler AG (DCXGn.DE) (NYSECX - news), or to strike a strategic alliance with the rival automaker, sources familiar with the situation said on Friday. 

There was deep skepticism on Wall Street about whether such a merger made sense for GM and whether it could ever happen.
An outright takeover of the Chrysler Group by GM would risk complicating the turnaround efforts of both companies, analysts said, even as it created an industry giant with a nearly 40 percent share of the U.S. market.
The talks to buy Chrysler, described by a source familiar with the situation as exploratory, were first reported on Friday by the trade journal Automotive News.
Automotive News, citing unnamed sources in Germany and the United States, said the companies were engaged in high-level talks about GM buying Chrysler Group -- which sells Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep vehicles -- in its entirety.
One source told Reuters that GM was in preliminary talks to buy Chrysler, but added it was questionable whether GM would want Chrysler's finance business, having sold its own finance arm, GMAC, last year.
A second source said talks were ongoing between the pair over a strategic car alliance but that source had no knowledge of any further talks.
GM, the world's largest automaker, and DaimlerChrysler, the world's fifth-largest automaker by global sales, declined comment.
Shares of DaimlerChrysler rose in reaction to reports of the talks. GM shares slipped at first, moved higher, then closed lower.
DaimlerChrysler shares closed up 4.4 percent at $73.33 on the 
New York Stock Exchange. Shares in GM closed 10 cents lower at $36.34.
Speculation surrounding a possible sale or spinoff of Chrysler has built since DaimlerChrysler Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche said earlier this week that all options were open for its struggling North American unit.
Analysts questioned whether GM would benefit from an outright merger with Chrysler, since both automakers are struggling with excess production capacity, sliding sales and a heavy exposure to trucks and sport utility vehicles.
Four months ago, GM broke off talks with Renault SA (RENA.PA) and Nissan Motor Co. (7201.T) after concluding that it would not have gained as much as the other two automakers from a proposed alliance.
GM and DaimlerChrysler have an ongoing joint venture with BMW to develop a hybrid system that will be used in an upcoming version of the Dodge Durango SUV.
David Feinman, a fund manager with Havens Advisors who specializes in distressed debt, said he doubted that GM would complete a deal to buy Chrysler.
Feinman, who does not own GM debt, said both GM and Chrysler have too many overlapping models, and any merger would have to result in even deeper cuts to jobs and output.
"If they do merge, there would have to be massive streamlining and there would be hundreds of thousands of more jobs lost," he said.
Feinman added, "The only one to benefit would be Daimler because they would get rid of Chrysler." 
David Healy, an automotive analyst with Burnham Financial Group, was also skeptical. 
"My own feeling is that a full merger wouldn't make any sense," said Healy. "They're bitter competitors, they have the same costs, and they have a similar footprint in the U.S. and Canada. 
"That said," Healy continued, "I think there's room for cooperation on joint ventures where, for example, one company lacks a model or a diesel engine -- why do it twice rather than once as a joint venture?" 
Burnham owns GM shares. The firm does not have investment banking relationships with GM. 
CHRYSLER RESTRUCTURING 
Chrysler announced a restructuring plan this week that will cut 13,000 jobs, close an assembly plant in Delaware, and reduce production shifts at other facilities. 
The Detroit-based automaker merged with Daimler in 1998, but that combination of the Mercedes luxury brand with the mass-market Chrysler has failed to deliver on its growth targets. 
Chrysler, which lost over $1.4 billion in 2006 after running up a costly inventory of unsold vehicles, is aiming to return to profitability in 2008 on the strength of new models and a lower cost base. 
A GM spokesman said on Friday the company has ongoing discussions with other automakers. 
"We routinely have discussions with other automakers about projects of mutual interest. As a matter of course, we don't comment on those discussions," GM spokesman Tony Cervone said. 
DaimlerChrysler also declined comment. "We have said everything there is to say on this subject," a spokesman said.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

jvm81;373739 said:


> 1st I watched the Daytona 500 and saw the new chevy commercial where the HD dully was pulling the train cars with the new 1/2 tons loaded on them. Made me laugh!!
> 
> But it got your attiention!
> 
> ...


This is true. They are in talks as the Germans and American's could never find true common ground in business of these two companies.


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

Actually I loved the commercial with the HD out front - just laughable I guess. Is the new toyota considered 3/4 ton model? 

I have 5 chevy's right now and one will get traded this year but if the toyota can't handle a plow - I will have to go with a new HD.


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## Antnee77 (Oct 25, 2005)

jvm81;373964 said:


> Actually I loved the commercial with the HD out front - just laughable I guess. Is the new toyota considered 3/4 ton model?
> 
> I have 5 chevy's right now and one will get traded this year but if the toyota can't handle a plow - I will have to go with a new HD.


No, the new Tundra is a 1/2 ton model. Very nice truck, but still a 1/2 ton. They really should start making a Class 2 and a Class 3 truck sometime soon.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

The train commercial has the disclaimer at the bottom, it is just meant for show. Although I wouldn't be surprised if a Dmax could move a heck of a lot on a train track, after all they are on wheels. But probably not a whole train. The Toyota ad says it is real, where they stop right before the edge of the canyon. I find that hard to believe. The see-saw ad looks cool, I'd like to try that.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

jvm81;373964 said:


> Actually I loved the commercial with the HD out front - just laughable I guess. Is the new toyota considered 3/4 ton model?
> 
> I have 5 chevy's right now and one will get traded this year but if the toyota can't handle a plow - I will have to go with a new HD.


Toyota can handle a plow ... just not the weight of a v-plow. On the flip side when I pressured two local dealers and a district rep they claimed Western was making a plow for the truck and that's all they knew.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

I've only seen the tiniest little toy plows on regular Tundras in the past. Looks stupid, a nearly full-size truck with a 12 inch high plow that would look small on a Tacoma.


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

Chevy, Ford, GMC, Dodge.....those are your real heavy duty truck options, IMO


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

scottL;374717 said:


> Toyota can handle a plow ... just not the weight of a v-plow. On the flip side when I pressured two local dealers and a district rep they claimed Western was making a plow for the truck and that's all they knew.


I searched the internet looking for axle ratings on the thing. In an attempt to see how much of a plow would fit. No luck at all.

Was able to find that the Tundra is the only truck that has LSD as standard (took a lot of brain power to figure that LSD SHOULD be on every pickup).

Even more interesting is the A-TRAC they advertise in the 4x4s. Not sure exactly how it works, but as it reads it looks like it can spin all four tires if need be. I.E. true 4x4.

So pretty much the Tundra is the only truck out there that can spin all 4 tires. Save for the Dodge Power Wagon and the air lockers.

If that is the case it would make one hell of a plow truck.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

POPO4995;374761 said:


> Chevy, Ford, GMC, Dodge.....those are your real heavy duty truck options, IMO


Remember the '70s when it was cool to say something like that?


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

ThisIsMe;374772 said:


> Remember the '70s when it was cool to say something like that?


I wasnt even sitting in my s**t in the 70's....


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

ThisIsMe;374770 said:


> I searched the internet looking for axle ratings on the thing. In an attempt to see how much of a plow would fit. No luck at all.
> 
> Was able to find that the Tundra is the only truck that has LSD as standard (took a lot of brain power to figure that LSD SHOULD be on every pickup).
> 
> ...


I can spin four tires in 2wd. But if I put it in 4wd I can only spin five. ;>


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

POPO4995;374774 said:


> I wasnt even sitting in my s**t in the 70's....


Oh I see. That explains why you have not grown out of that thinking yet. Give it time.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Detroitdan;374777 said:


> I can spin four tires in 2wd. But if I put it in 4wd I can only spin five. ;>


Always one to throw in the legal mumbo jumbo with the dualies.


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

ThisIsMe;374778 said:


> Oh I see. That explains why you have not grown out of that thinking yet. Give it time.


Well, lets see. The big 4 I mentioned make 3/4 ton, hell even 1 ton trucks. Toyota? NO. When a little Toyota can carry a Blizzard 810, Boss V, or a Fisher V, then we can discuss the issue.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

POPO4995;374809 said:


> Well, lets see. The big 4 I mentioned make 3/4 ton, hell even 1 ton trucks. Toyota? NO. When a little Toyota can carry a Blizzard 810, Boss V, or a Fisher V, then we can discuss the issue.


About 10 years ago someone said the same about a Toyota towing 10,000 lbs. 30 years ago someone said imported cars will never compete in the US. Give it time.

If anything the competetion will make the big 3 stronger. Hopefully


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

ThisIsMe;374814 said:


> About 10 years ago someone said the same about a Toyota towing 10,000 lbs. 30 years ago someone said imported cars will never compete in the US. Give it time.
> 
> If anything the competetion will make the big 3 stronger. Hopefully


I think the big 3 may be a thing of the past. The times they are a changing.......

At 46yr old I do not have another 30 years to waite for toyota to get there act together.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

SnoFarmer;374822 said:


> At 46yr old I do not have another 30 years to waite for toyota to get there act together.


Well I hate to admit it but the fact that Toyota puts a LSD in the rear-end of a pickup as standard, is a good sign in regards to their act. Big three have not figured it out yet.

If that crap that Toyota has on the truck makes it a true 4x4...............about time.

And if a Toyota adds snow-prep package includes an outside temp gauge that works. I am sold. LOL


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

I don't think snow plowing was tops on Toyota's list when they made the new Tundra, it was playing the 1/2 ton game that the big 3 (and much more recently Nissan) have been playing for years...that is bragging about horsepower, towing capacity and other big boy stuff. The Tundra is no threat to the 3/4 and up domestic trucks since the payload capacity isn't there...but those guys better sit up and pay serious attention. The Tundra is no longer a 7/8 scale 1/2 ton (or world's biggest 1/4 ton, either way)...its a full size and capacity 1/2 ton...you wouldn't buy a half ton over a 3/4 or 1 ton to haul gravel in the bed or to push a 9' V plow...don't think for a moment that Toyota is saying the same thing.



> I have 5 chevy's right now and one will get traded this year but if the toyota can't handle a plow - I will have to go with a new HD.


I expect that all the major plow manufaturers will be offering a light duty plow setup for the Tundra...probably for next season. I wouldn't expect to see an 8' or V plow on one anymore than on any other 1/2 ton truck...any big blade you see on one of those is not made for the truck and will drop the front end right down to the bumper when its lifted (I saw a half dozen last Thursday...a whole bunch of Z71's with 8' Fisher blades and and about a literal inch of front wheelwell clearance...no ballast no beacons).


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;374824 said:


> Well I hate to admit it but the fact that Toyota puts a LSD in the rear-end of a pickup as standard, is a good sign in regards to their act. Big three have not figured it out yet.
> 
> If that crap that Toyota has on the truck makes it a true 4x4...............about time.
> 
> And if a Toyota adds snow-prep package includes an outside temp gauge that works. I am sold. LOL


I personally could care less if Toyota make a HD truck or not... I am a GM guy, and as long as GM make s truck that suit my need I will buy a GM truck. plain and simple. Also look at the Titan... that pretty much should compete with the 1/2 ton models, and I still see more 1/2 ton trucks from the big 3 than I do Titans. I am sure that the foreign trucks will slowly pick up market share, but it is not like it is going to happen overnight... And I really find it hard to believe that any of the big three are just going to give up and throw in the towel. Look at all the 2008 model years.. all of them are inflating their towing capacities, increasing the HP and torque, and one can only hope they improve the fuel consumption. Furthermore lets face it.. 90% of the HP and Torque numbers the the manufacture publish are peak numbers that are reached at RPM levels that we do not see most of the time. It is all marketing, and what you choose to believe .


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

True the Titan's sales do not measure up to the big3 1/2 ton sales, but lets look at those numbers...Ford almost sells more F series trucks than Nissan sells across its entire vehicle line, including Altimas and Sentras, not just the Titan.

I'm a dmestic truck guy myself...I'm not brand loyal in the least, but right now the USA is the only place I can get a good 3/4 ton pickup truck and I sincerely hope the manufacturers keep it that way.

I'll be interested to see what 3-5 years os ownership brings to the Tundras. See what kind of problems surface over 100k miles of hard use.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;374864 said:


> I personally could care less if Toyota make a HD truck or not... I am a GM guy, and as long as GM make s truck that suit my need I will buy a GM truck. plain and simple. Also look at the Titan... that pretty much should compete with the 1/2 ton models, and I still see more 1/2 ton trucks from the big 3 than I do Titans. I am sure that the foreign trucks will slowly pick up market share, but it is not like it is going to happen overnight... And I really find it hard to believe that any of the big three are just going to give up and throw in the towel. Look at all the 2008 model years.. all of them are inflating their towing capacities, increasing the HP and torque, and one can only hope they improve the fuel consumption. Furthermore lets face it.. 90% of the HP and Torque numbers the the manufacture publish are peak numbers that are reached at RPM levels that we do not see most of the time. It is all marketing, and what you choose to believe .


Yep and that was the same thinking that the Big three had when the they first started importing the small cars.

"They will never compete with the Lincolns, LTDs, Caprices or other full size cars." Would be a similar comment as yours here today, only 20-30 years ago. Now look where they are at.

Could you suggest another standard other then SAE horsepower standards in use today to rate motors?


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

mayhem;374860 The Tundra is no threat to the 3/4 and up domestic trucks since the payload capacity isn't there...but those guys better sit up and pay serious attention.
[/QUOTE said:


> Good point
> 
> Sad to say a wake-up call is in order. I surely do hope they pay attention this time.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;374963 said:


> Could you suggest another standard other then SAE horsepower standards in use today to rate motors?


I think HP and torque are perfect ways to rate motors, but I would rather have them state the ratings that are seen at typical RPM areas as well as their peak values. Sort of like stereo amplifiers... they have RMS power and PEAK power.

As far as the BIG 3 falling asleep at the wheel... we will see, but I find it hard to believe that they are going to just not react to Toyota and the other manufactures., but time will tell.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;375393 said:


> I think HP and torque are perfect ways to rate motors, but I would rather have them state the ratings that are seen at typical RPM areas as well as their peak values. Sort of like stereo amplifiers... they have RMS power and PEAK power.


That is what the charts are for. Then again you cona not find them easily on new cars 

Save for that if you remember horsepower and torque are the same number at 5252 rpms, the peak torque at a lower RPM would be close. Still not the same as you suggest but close.



Frozen001;375393 said:


> As far as the BIG 3 falling asleep at the wheel... we will see, but I find it hard to believe that they are going to just not react to Toyota and the other manufactures., but time will tell.


Hence lies the problem. The big three has a pretty solid record of falling asleep. First 2-doors, then 4-doors then the SUV market (close on the SUVs). As far as I am concerned they are batting 0-4.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;375403 said:


> Hence lies the problem. The big three has a pretty solid record of falling asleep. First 2-doors, then 4-doors then the SUV market (close on the SUVs). As far as I am concerned they are batting 0-4.


SUV's?? What foreign car company has the big three beat in the SUV market as far as capabilities are concerned??


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;375415 said:


> SUV's?? What foreign car company has the big three beat in the SUV market as far as capabilities are concerned??


The Big three were once the only manufactures of SUVs. Now look. Then again the fact that the BIG has only placed once in the "SUV of the Year" in the past 10 years is a small start.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Ok Guys
You all know where I work so I'm a little one side about this, but I open my mouth anyway. Show me one Toyota Truck that can haul the same payload as a GM or Ford, carry a 8.5 ft blade and be driven hard for 150-200K and still be a decent truck. You can't because Toyota has never build a truck for work. So are you ready to be the test dummy? I wouldn't even think about it for at least 2-3 years after they have been on the market and worked hard. So if you want to save some money on a new Chevy HD send me a PM and I will get you a supplier discount. *BUY AMERCIAN WHERE THE PROFITS STAY WHEN YOU BUY FROM THE BIG 3*

Regards Mike


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;375425 said:


> The Big three were once the only manufactures of SUVs. Now look. Then again the fact that the BIG has only placed once in the "SUV of the Year" in the past 10 years is a small start.


If you look at all the Car magazines with their what ever vehicle of the year awards they are always biased toward the foreign manufactures.... I said show me one foreign SUV that is more _capable_ than one from the big 3 ...

I agree with Fly on this one... The new tundra still needs to be proven in real world situations, but if you want to believe all the marketing hype then go ahead and buy one and prove to us that it is just as capable of a truck, but until then it will just be marketing hype to me...


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;375436 said:


> *BUY AMERCIAN WHERE THE PROFITS STAY WHEN YOU BUY FROM THE BIG 3*
> 
> Regards Mike


My new Dodge Hemi motor says "Made in Mexico" How does that keep profits in the US? Oh wait, the profit if any they made from my Dodge went to Germany.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

flykelley;375436. [B said:


> BUY AMERCIAN WHERE THE PROFITS STAY WHEN YOU BUY FROM THE BIG 3[/B]
> 
> Regards Mike


How can you say that? You know thats no longer true, less and less of the profits stay here.

All most half of the cars that the " big3" offer are made/assembled by a foreign MFG or with foreign parts.

How can the profits stay here with assembly plants in Canada and Mexico.

Let alone the ventures with foreign MFG's

-----------------
GM's vice-president of product development, Bob Lutz, *As of this month, the brand is officially available, selling rebadged Daewoos*. " will mainly be taking the Korean-built Chevys, such as the Kalos and Lacetti

Lutz added that he expected the *Daewoo/Chevrolet swap* wouldn't go 100 per cent smoothly. "For a while there will be confusion as people get used to what's happening," he said.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;375447 said:


> If you look at all the Car magazines with their what ever vehicle of the year awards they are always biased toward the foreign manufactures.... I said show me one foreign SUV that is more _capable_ than one from the big 3 ...
> 
> I agree with Fly on this one... The new tundra still needs to be proven in real world situations, but if you want to believe all the marketing hype then go ahead and buy one and prove to us that it is just as capable of a truck, but until then it will just be marketing hype to me...


I take it you have never ridden or owned and SUV. Try the Toyota, or BMW SUV. Leaps and bounds ahead.

Need to be proven was the same thinking that took place in 1970 when imports went after the car market here in the US. That history has already been proven.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

SnoFarmer;375451 said:


> How can you say that? You know thats no longer true, less and less of the profits stay here.
> 
> All most half of the cars that the " big3" offer are made/assembled by a foreign MFG or with foreign parts.
> 
> ...


 How can I say that, it is very simple all of the profits that Toyota makes goes where? It heads straight to Japan not here in the USA. Show me one Toyota truck that can push snow handle a vbox that is loaded and still be around in 5 years. I will stand behind and drive a Amercian Truck any day of the week. Toyota has not proven over the years that they have a truck that is able to be used as a work truck. Im not talking about hauling a small trailer to pick-up a load of mulch, I'm talking about a real load. I WAS BORN HERE, I EARN MY MONEY HERE AND I WILL BE DAMNED IF I EVER WILL BUY A FORIEGN CAR OR TRUCK. GOD BLESS THIS GREAT COUNTRY OF OUR'S.

Regards Mike


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

Frozen001;375447 said:


> If you look at all the Car magazines with their what ever vehicle of the year awards they are always biased toward the foreign manufactures....


Maybe they're not biased...maybe the other products are more deserving of their awards. I hear this time and again and I often wonder if people are seeing something that isn't there because they want to. Have you ever compared an Accord or Camry to a Malibu?



> I said show me one foreign SUV that is more _capable_ than one from the big 3


 ...

Range Rover, Toyota Land Cruiser, Mitusbishi Patrol, Mercedes Glendelwagen (sp?)...

Define capable. Are you talking about passenger capacity? Fuel economy? Off road prowess? Curb weight? Resale value? Approach and departure angles? Number of cupholders? Size of the factory installed rear seat LCD screen? There are a million yardsticks to use...any one of which could be chosen to favor any one specific vehicle.



> Show me one Toyota truck that can push snow handle a vbox that is loaded and still be around in 5 years.


That product does not exist. Nobody has said the new Tundra can do that either...you wouldn't buy a half ton Chevy or Ford to do that either, would you? The Tundra is a half ton truck, nothing more. But sooner or later Toyota and/or Nissan is going to offer 3/4 and 1 ton trucks in the USA and you can bet your ass they'll be good quality, powerful, heavy duty trucks that are very competitive with the domestic equivalents.

The full size heavy duty trucks are basically the last category in which the domestic manufacturers have virtually no foreign competition...all other categories they regularly get trounced in.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;375480 said:


> It heads straight to Japan not here in the USA.


If this is true, then please enlighten us as to where the profits from the Big three go to?


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Guys
One of the best place's to find out how the Amercian made cars and trucks compare to each other is JD Powers. The poll the owners of the new cars and trucks, and they have found out that the gap in quality in Amercian made verus Foriegn Car companys are now very close. I choose to buy amercian because I belive it is the best value for my dollar. It does a number of things when you do that, you keep your fellow amercians working which has a huge trickle down effect. The big 3 have also shown in the past that they can make a truck that you can work and it will still hold up and have some value after 5 years. Now would I rather you buy a GM of course, but if you don't want a GM truck then at least buy a Ford or Dodge. The Big Three help shape this great country of ours and I think we need to keep buying Amercian Made Trucks. If we all stop buying Amercian Made products where will this country of ours be in 20 or 30 years?? Something to think about.

Regards Mike


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;375480 said:


> I WILL BE DAMNED IF I EVER WILL BUY A FORIEGN CAR OR TRUCK. GOD BLESS THIS GREAT COUNTRY OF OUR'S.


Now that is what we like to hear. Now prove it. Sell the truck you currently have that is 80% made in the USA and buy one that is made 100% in the USA.

When you learn of what truck that is let us know.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

ThisIsMe;375498 said:


> If this is true, then please enlighten us as to where the profits from the Big three go to?


How many Plants and building are owned here in the USA by the Big Three? I can tell you this, they own a heck of alot more than any of the Foriegn companys do. How many employee's are working for the BIg Three? Alot more than any Foreign automaker. How much of the vechile content from Toyota is from the USA. I would guess a very small percent. Where does GM make the engine's, trans, sheet metal and most of the other parts that they use. I would say that GM use's around 80% amercian made parts. That are parts that built right here on our own soil, not sent over on some ship to be asemmbled here in this country. These are jobs that our freinds and family have that feed their kids. These are some of the small factorys that many of us plow. So where do alot of the profits of the Big 3 go, I will tell you for a fact they STAY RIGHT HERE IN THE USA. Wake up and look what is happening to our country when all of our jobs go oversea's, we all lose from that.

Regards Mike


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;375500 said:


> The Big Three help shape this great country of ours and I think we need to keep buying Amercian Made Trucks. If we all stop buying Amercian Made products where will this country of ours be in 20 or 30 years?? Something to think about.
> 
> Regards Mike


That is a great point. People should buy American. Problem is the big three do not follow the same thinking. They have proven this time and time again, by exporting their manufacturing overseas.

When they exported work overseas, they said screw America, screw jobs in America, and screw American made products; all that really matters is the almighty dollar and our commitment to our shareholders.

Tell me how Dodge is helping this great country by hiring Mexicans to build the Hemi?

Unfortunately there are still a lot of American folk who are still stuck in the '70s about buying American, all the while Big 3 are saying the heck with you and your buy American. What will it take? A Ford F150 with 2 foot high letters on the side reading "Made in Mexico"? Or will you still continue to "sheeply" follow along.

If you are so devout on not buying a foreign made product why is it that you continually support products where the manufacture is more and more outside the US?


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;375507 said:


> How many Plants and building are owned here in the USA by the Big Three? I can tell you this, they own a heck of alot more than any of the Foriegn companys do. How many employee's are working for the BIg Three? Alot more than any Foreign automaker. How much of the vechile content from Toyota is from the USA. I would guess a very small percent. Where does GM make the engine's, trans, sheet metal and most of the other parts that they use. I would say that GM use's around 80% amercian made parts. That are parts that built right here on our own soil, not sent over on some ship to be asemmbled here in this country. These are jobs that our freinds and family have that feed their kids. These are some of the small factorys that many of us plow. So where do alot of the profits of the Big 3 go, I will tell you for a fact they STAY RIGHT HERE IN THE USA. Wake up and look what is happening to our country when all of our jobs go oversea's, we all lose from that.
> 
> Regards Mike


Good points. Well guessing at good points.

Actually Chrysler laid off 13,000 people and closed one plant. While Dodge opened 3 new ones in Mexico and lord knows how many new Mexican workers. There is some loyalty for ya!!!!!!!!! You support laying off American workers in favor of Mexican?

Toyota hired 9,000 folk and spent $1bil on a plant in Texas.

FYI Tundra is made 100% in the US. Tacoma is made 100% in the US save for the transmission.

Who needs to wake up?

But the questions is what did the big 3 do with the profits?

I will give you a little jump start Ford posted $12.6bil is losses for 2006. FYI losses does not equal profits.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

IMO it's all because the UAW got too much power and strangled the automakers. Nobody wants workers to build cars for minimum wage, but these crooks think they deserve ridiculous money to run an automated assembly line. The big three would have gone out of business by now if they hadn't built plants outside the US. If you want to blame somebody, I say blame the UAW.


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

HEY THIS !!!!!!!!!!

SORRY......You tomota is NOT 100% USA/Canada content...............
Haven't read the foreign content sticker of late on them.............
But its sure NOT 100%. GM has a higher USA/Canada content than toymota.

Please note the beds on the taco and tindra are made in mexico along with a bunch
of other parts. Check out http://www.toyota.com and note how proudly they state
their mexico bed assembly plant is producing these parts at a lower cost etc. etc.

Also note the mention of how close this plant is to their NEW BC mexico taco
plant and how they are gonna save a bunch of $$$$ on shipping.................

Toymota the SAVIOR of the good old USA automotive industry !:crying:


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;375516 said:


> FYI Tundra is made 100% in the US. Tacoma is made 100% in the US save for the transmission.


This is a blatantly false statement. These may have been through final assembly in the US, but that is a far stretch from being 100% made in America. Personally I do not really care where the truck is made, or where the parts come from. The fact of the matter is that in today's global economy, you are going to be hard pressed to find anything that is made 100% in ANY country any more. Furthermore if you look at the reasons for Toyota, Nissan, and other foreign manufacturers reasons for building plants in the US, you get a much different picture. It all boils down to import taxes. They pay less import taxes if they do final assembly her in the US, and can sell their vehicles in the US at similar prices to US cars. This is the major reason for building plants in the US...

Really I just want a quality made product, that will take a beating, and still hold some value for at least 5 years. Sure the Japanese cars have had somewhat better quality in the past, but that gap is closing. Look at the reports of the new GM truck line and how the fit an finish is leaps ahead of previous designs.

We can go back and forth on this all day, and in the end it appears like you like/prefer (or however you want to phrase it) Toyota products over any of the Big 3... while myself and others like/prefer the domestic products....

To each his own I guess...


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

flykelley;375480 said:


> How can I say that, it is very simple all of the profits that Toyota makes goes where? It heads straight to Japan not here in the USA. Show me one Toyota truck that can push snow handle a vbox that is loaded and still be around in 5 years. I will stand behind and drive a Amercian Truck any day of the week. Toyota has not proven over the years that they have a truck that is able to be used as a work truck. Im not talking about hauling a small trailer to pick-up a load of mulch, I'm talking about a real load. I WAS BORN HERE, I EARN MY MONEY HERE AND I WILL BE DAMNED IF I EVER WILL BUY A FORIEGN CAR OR TRUCK. GOD BLESS THIS GREAT COUNTRY OF OUR'S.
> 
> Regards Mike


:waving: I was born here and so were my Great Grandparents..:salute: 
I agree with 90% of what you are saying.

Fords are made in Canada. I know, I owned one, Maple leaf stickers all over it.
(The last one also)
I own a 74 Dodge power wagon, 69 Dodge Charger, 01 Dodge 2500 (MADE IN MEXICO WITH 80% FOREIGN PARTS), 98 Dodge 2500.
Have owned 46 dodge W300, 72 W200, Jeep, neon, spirit, and a few others Chersler products. brand blined? No. I'm just to lazey to learn how to fix any thing ealse.
You get the idea.

I was buying American until N.A.F.T.A. 
Now I buy Mexican made trucks.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Detroitdan;375526 said:


> IMO it's all because the UAW got too much power and strangled the automakers. Nobody wants workers to build cars for minimum wage, but these crooks think they deserve ridiculous money to run an automated assembly line. The big three would have gone out of business by now if they hadn't built plants outside the US. If you want to blame somebody, I say blame the UAW.


You forgot the greedy corporate folk along with the UAW. Then again the UAW does support the Tacoma as it is supposedly built by UAW workers. Not sure, but I think the same about the Tundra (too new to tell if it is built by UAW) workers.

Maybe Toyota will learn the hard way, like you mentioned the big three have already.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

sonjaab;375557 said:


> HEY THIS !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> SORRY......You tomota is NOT 100% USA/Canada content...............
> Haven't read the foreign content sticker of late on them.............
> But its sure NOT 100%. GM has a higher USA/Canada content than toymota.


Sure about that? Without looking at the sticker?

Either way we can look at from a simpler angle for the sake of argument. Find a truck from the Big 3 that is made more in the US then the Tundra?


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;375572 said:


> This is a blatantly false statement. These may have been through final assembly in the US, but that is a far stretch from being 100% made in America. Personally I do not really care where the truck is made, or where the parts come from. The fact of the matter is that in today's global economy, you are going to be hard pressed to find anything that is made 100% in ANY country any more.
> 
> We can go back and forth on this all day, and in the end it appears like you like/prefer (or however you want to phrase it) Toyota products over any of the Big 3... while myself and others like/prefer the domestic products....
> 
> To each his own I guess...


Sure about that? Do you know what the FTC requires before the Made in USA stamp can be applied? Or to differentiate from "Assembled in the USA".

I am all for Made in the USA and own only trucks from the big three. Sad part is the Big 3 could care less and the consumer has allowed this (myself included). The Big 3 does not care about the actual concerns about you preferring domestic (I do as well). They have proven this time and time again by constantly sending vehicles off-shore.

I have Dodges with made in Mexico stamped all over them. It is clear to see that Dodge could care less about made in the USA. Why should I? Alas I still do, and if the Toyota is still made more so in the USA, then there goes my support. Even more so if they come out with the proposed Diesel hybrid that they have in the works.

As far as where the profits going to Japan,,,,,,,,,,, that sadly is nothing more then an excuse for a misunderstanding of how a public company operates. Toyota stock is about 36% US owned. 36% of a $16bil profit for 2006 equals about $5.5bil in profits for the US.

Compare that to Ford which is about 70% US stock ownership, Ford had $12.1bil in losses for 2006. 70% of any loss equals no profits for the US.


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

THIS................Wrong again !

The o7 GMT-900s are currently 90% US and Canadian content.............

toymota does NOT trade stock shares here in the US ~
Because toymota doesn't play by the rules of the SEC and their rules are about impossible to get around unlike US import rules which toymota slip-slides around
pretending to be a good "American" company and a savior of the USA !

Thus what is traded on the NYSE is "American depository recipts" which represent
2 shares (in japan) of toymota stock.

Link????........Sure http://www.toyota.com/about/shareholder/index.html?s_van=GM_TN_ABOUT_SHAREHOLDER

And while your scratching your head..............
Check out the piss poor dividend that toymota pays...About .21 CENTS SEMI ANNUALLY
Not quarterly like GM, Ford, or DCX

Please post a link to that 36%.............


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

sonjaab;375670 said:


> THIS................Wrong again !
> 
> The o7 GMT-900s are currently 90% US and Canadian content.............
> 
> ...


Which is it 90% Canada or 90% US? Cannot be both. Come on decide which one. 

Why would you buy a stock listed on the Tokyo exchange at NYSE? You need a new broker.

The fact that you talk in payouts (dividends) is comical. Correct comparatives would of been in the form relation to strike price. For example "ROI", "ROE", "E/R", "EPS" or "Yield". Read up some more on these, you are getting close. Hint: a company that loses $12bil does not have a good EPS or any of the other fancy terms I used above.

To be honest the fact that you mentioned that the big 3 pays out quarterly and Toyota pays out annually has me in intrigued. Never really in the world of stock valuation has that ever really come into play (more or less no one gives a crap), so I have no idea what that pertains to on profitability of a company. Enlighten us please.

Although, you and you alone might be onto something. The three you mentioned that paid quarterly had no profits last year, versus a profit for Toyota. I would keep this secret to yourself and invest wisely using this info, nobody else does, and you are the only one who knows. You could make a killing.


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

Well.....Since its obvious you have never purchased a NEW vehicle I can see
why you HAVE NO CLUE to what a Federal content sticker is.................

All new vehicles sold in the US (under 8600 lbs.) have a Federal content sticker
affixed to the window next to the Mulroney (spl) sticker (aka price sticker).
This sticker states the US/CANADIAN part content plus where the engine and
transmission come from. It also states where the vehicle is assembled.

It may also post where the other non US/Canadian content is from (DCX lists this).

Now for your reading comprehension..............I can only guess on that one.
Reread my post on where actual toymota stock shares are traded.
A clue........NOT the USA ! ADRs only which are NOT shares of stock!
And yes tomota paid a paultry few pennies (less than .50 cents per share total
SEMI-ANNUALLY)

Ok then..............Now tell us about your experience plowing. Cuz I can tell
you have seen and done it all and you can teach us old dogs some new tricks.
I know you must have a fleet of toymotas with Snow Bear plows workin' hard and
your making millions...........................geo


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

sonjaab;375749 said:


> Well.....Since its obvious you have never purchased a NEW vehicle I can see
> why you HAVE NO CLUE to what a Federal content sticker is.................
> 
> All new vehicles sold in the US (under 8600 lbs.) have a Federal content sticker
> ...


How old are you?

What is your next post? "My dad can beat up your dad"?

This kind of debating I would expect from a 12 year old not from an adult. If you cannot debate like an adult then there really is no sense in continuing is there?


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

I think a few of you need to remember that Canada is not quite in the same classification as other 'foreign' countries when it comes to American cars--Canada and the USA have been longstanding partners in the auto industry for the benefit of both. It was never a take-over attempt like Japan. And you all know full well that Canadians and Americans are cut from the same cloth, ie: desire for quality, value, pride, and passion. A Canadian built GM car is every bit as good as a US built GM car, and it is all done with a smile and a handshake, not a hahaha we screwed them again.

For the record, comparing a top of the line Honda Accord to an entry level Chevy Malibu is absurd. Since Honda's flagship Acura would be more comparible to a Cadillac, I'd say an Accord in full dress trim might be comparible to, what, a Buick Park Avenue? I guarentee you that a Park Avenue is a nicer car in every way, probably being beat out in handling and fuel economy just due to physical size. Definately a better value if you compare all the creature comforts. Maybe once the Japanese realize that not everyone is 5' tall, maybe they'd build a bigger car?

The Japanese are masters of marketing. They go on TV and tell everyone they are better quality. And the brainwashed sheep of the world say 'yes, master.' Read the JD Power and Associates reports on customer satisfaction, they tell a lot more that those ridiculously biased magazine and book editors. Gotta love Lemon-Aid. Used to read those for fun until my stomach couldn't handle the crap in them any more. I remember specifically reading about a certain model Toyota (may have been a Corolla?) a few years back that warned about 'sudden catastrophic brake failure' and 'known, unrecalled electrical problems that result in electrical based interior fires'.... then went on to praise them as a best buy, an excellent value "for you AND YOUR FAMILIES"!!! The same book recommended the Mazda B series pickup but condemmed the Ford Ranger (identical truck less the grill). Many other american models were 'not recommended' but the articles had nothing negative to say about them. The funny part was the models that are top of the heap according to JD Power seemed to get a begrudging 'acceptable' level from these people. Talk about pathetic!

The truth of the matter is that there are unfair trading practices going on, where US automakers can't bring their products to Japan yet Japan can bring whatever they want to North America.

I wish my dad was computer literate, he was 42 years at GM and was fairly high up in management. He had all kinds of stats on why things cost so much (something like $1500 per new vehicle goes directly into healthcare???)

General Motors was the company that employed my dad and put food on our family's table throughout my lifetime, NOT Toyota, Honda, Asuna, Suzuki, Kia, Hyundai, or any of these other foreign companies. I think this DESERVES a certain amount of loyalty. Not to mention we've never had a GM vehicle we were unhappy with, ever. And I mean EVER. You can nitpick the occasional flaw here and there but it is still a mechanical item built by people, and the imports have the same flaws. You won't see a rice bomb in my driveway anytime soon.

And for the record, Japan isn't so bright either. You want commercial grade Toyota trucks? They're called Hino's, and for the record they are very good and more or less had the cab-over market cornered. Note, that I said HAD. They gave it away... why? Because they decided to try and compete in the money-losing conventional truck market instead. Brilliant.


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

> For the record, comparing a top of the line Honda Accord to an entry level Chevy Malibu is absurd. Since Honda's flagship Acura would be more comparible to a Cadillac,


Nobody mentioned Acura's flagship sedan, the RL...very much in the Cadillac class. Is the branding different in Canada?

Chevy Malibu, 4 door mid size fwd sedan base priced between $17.5k - $23.6k
Honda Accord. 4 door mid size fwd sedan base priced between $18.6k - $33k

While the Accord definitnely offers a higher top end to its range I think if you look at the base models, the two cars are very comparable.

But this is severe threadjacking now, sorry.

sonjaab, you were going pretty good there until you started the name calling.


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## NeoThoR (Dec 13, 2006)

if Nissan was smart they'd buy the truck side of Chrysler..

Thats if Chrysler sells like that..

It would be weird if GM bought out all of Chrysler.


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## Yaz (Apr 13, 2005)

You guys driving foreign crap are just keep trying to convince us why you you bought them. "My Toyota has 179 thousand miles".. Big whoop, marketing at it finniest. No thanks, I would be embarrassed driving one 5 miles to the grocery store. oops a carriage.. look out it may total it.

Actually I think you have to tell us why they are so good is because inside you feel bad for buying one.xysport

O YA they're better.. OK sure they are. 

Check out this great truck at.
http://forums.triplezoom.com/zerothread?id=2438359&page=1


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

ThisIsMe;375516 said:


> Good points. Well guessing at good points.
> 
> Actually Chrysler laid off 13,000 people and closed one plant. While Dodge opened 3 new ones in Mexico and lord knows how many new Mexican workers. There is some loyalty for ya!!!!!!!!! You support laying off American workers in favor of Mexican?
> 
> ...


You know what I have been in the truck end of the buisness for 30 years now. There is not one thing you can tell me about what the free trade agreement did to our country. Toyota has just a drop in the bucket when you compare the big 3 vrs toyota in terms of employees and plants in the USA. Think in terms of how much is GMs payroll every week. So don't tell me that GM doesn't help this country. Yes they make trucks outside the USA, but you know what I will not buy them. I buy and drive what I build, YES FULL SIZE GM TRUCKS WITH WORLD CLASS QUAILTY RIGHT HERE IN PONTAIC MICHIGAN. ALSO THE WINNER OF JD POWERS BEST IN CLASS TRUCKS FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, SO IM DAMN PROUD OF MY PLANT AND MY COMPANY. Go on and keep buy and driving toyotas and see what effect it will have on the people and the companys in the USA.

Regards Mike


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Detroitdan;375526 said:


> IMO it's all because the UAW got too much power and strangled the automakers. Nobody wants workers to build cars for minimum wage, but these crooks think they deserve ridiculous money to run an automated assembly line. The big three would have gone out of business by now if they hadn't built plants outside the US. If you want to blame somebody, I say blame the UAW.


Dan
You need to come to Michigan and spend one day in the factory with me. I know for a fact you will have a whole different outlook about factory life after just 8 hrs on that line. Run a automated line, man I know for a fact that the line at my plant the parts don't just jump out of that basket and bolt themselve's on the truck. Most of the job cycles in my plant are around 50-55 seconds per minute. Yes that means that out of every minute you are working 50-54 seconds. Don't think about itching your butt or even talk to your co worker. You get a 6 minute break for every hour you work, and when you have your break you had better get to the bathroom. This job is not for alot of people, I have seen many of them quit after just days on that line. You go home many nights with ache's and pains but that is all part of the job.

Regards Mike


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

SnoFarmer;375602 said:


> :waving: I was born here and so were my Great Grandparents..:salute:
> I agree with 90% of what you are saying.
> 
> Fords are made in Canada. I know, I owned one, Maple leaf stickers all over it.
> ...


Switch over to GM Trucks and you will have a full size truck made right here in the USA.

Regards Mike


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

flykelley;375939 said:


> Dan
> You need to come to Michigan and spend one day in the factory with me. I know for a fact you will have a whole different outlook about factory life after just 8 hrs on that line. Run a automated line, man I know for a fact that the line at my plant the parts don't just jump out of that basket and bolt themselve's on the truck. Most of the job cycles in my plant are around 50-55 seconds per minute. Yes that means that out of every minute you are working 50-54 seconds. Don't think about itching your butt or even talk to your co worker. You get a 6 minute break for every hour you work, and when you have your break you had better get to the bathroom. This job is not for alot of people, I have seen many of them quit after just days on that line. You go home many nights with ache's and pains but that is all part of the job.
> 
> Regards Mike


How much does it pay?
I knew you would jump on me for that one. Sorry, I wasn't trying to attack you personally. But it is my understanding that the fact of the matter is the union controls the automakers, and the workers are paid what they call a fair wage, but what is actually far higher than what a fair market would support. And the end result is that the automaker has to move to where costs are less. I read recently that Toyotas health care costs are only 10% of what the big 3 are forced to pay. Let me rephrase that: Toyota agrees to pay just 10% as much.
All right, don't get pi55ed at me here, but let me get this straight: a 6 minute break every hour. Times 8 hours is 48 minutes. 7 hours and 12 minutes of work. 6 seconds out of every minute (roughly) adds up to 1 minute every 10, or 6 minutes off every hour. That's another 48 minutes subtracted from 6 hours. Let's see, 6 hours and 24 minutes out of every 8 hour shift you actually have to work? And you get paid for all 8? Do you get a lunch break? 
Ok, Ok, I'm only kidding here! I know you work hard, factory work isn't easy or fun and you work a lot harder than me or a lot of other people do. I generally sit on my butt and ride around for 6 and a half hours of my shifts. However, there are union organizations in area towns that pay the guys nearly double what I make to do the exact same job. And then what I've found is that they no longer seem to care about their job, they get real lazy and don't do anymore than they have to, and all they want to do is talk about how much money the union is getting them. Don't get me wrong, I wish I was in a union so I could bring home more to my family. But my agency is not large enough to start one yet, so what we have is the reverse, the people in charge don't care about employee retention so they don't pay anything. So we lose 2 or 3 people a year to other better paying towns.


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

Heres a pic of a "superior" toymota after a few years of plowing duty
(according to the posts)
http://eddiehabeck.com/broke_truck/break3.jpg


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;375938 said:


> You know what I have been in the truck end of the buisness for 30 years now. There is not one thing you can tell me about what the free trade agreement did to our country. Toyota has just a drop in the bucket when you compare the big 3 vrs toyota in terms of employees and plants in the USA. Think in terms of how much is GMs payroll every week. So don't tell me that GM doesn't help this country. Yes they make trucks outside the USA, but you know what I will not buy them. I buy and drive what I build, YES FULL SIZE GM TRUCKS WITH WORLD CLASS QUAILTY RIGHT HERE IN PONTAIC MICHIGAN. ALSO THE WINNER OF JD POWERS BEST IN CLASS TRUCKS FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, SO IM DAMN PROUD OF MY PLANT AND MY COMPANY. Go on and keep buy and driving toyotas and see what effect it will have on the people and the companys in the USA.
> 
> Regards Mike


Oh I agree 100% The big 3 are making it very hard to buy American. Are we to blindly follow along is my point. Point being, will GM be around in 5 or 10 years to help this country, or will they be bought out by like Chrysler? This of course would be a disaster, but it is in the cards, if we like it or not.

True, Toyota does not employ the number of people that GM does. But who is adding more employees every year while the Big 3 employ less and less. I am not buying a Toyota yet, nor any plans to. But if Toyota can produce a truck with an engine made in the US, or say, made more in the US and supporting US workers, then it is time to rethink. We might not have a choice. 

Strange as it may seem, if I want to continue supporting US workers in 5 to 10 years, then a Toyota may very well have to be the choice. Heck even now the Toyota has the blessing from the UAW in claiming that purchasing a Toyota supports the UAW. Could they be wrong as well?

Sad to say, Toyota will surpass GM in 2007 as the largest Auto manufacture in the world. How I have no clue, but GM might end up like CPM/80 was to Microsoft's Windows.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Detroitdan;375974 said:


> How much does it pay?
> I knew you would jump on me for that one. Sorry, I wasn't trying to attack you personally. But it is my understanding that the fact of the matter is the union controls the automakers, and the workers are paid what they call a fair wage, but what is actually far higher than what a fair market would support. And the end result is that the automaker has to move to where costs are less. I read recently that Toyotas health care costs are only 10% of what the big 3 are forced to pay. Let me rephrase that: Toyota agrees to pay just 10% as much.
> All right, don't get pi55ed at me here, but let me get this straight: a 6 minute break every hour. Times 8 hours is 48 minutes. 7 hours and 12 minutes of work. 6 seconds out of every minute (roughly) adds up to 1 minute every 10, or 6 minutes off every hour. That's another 48 minutes subtracted from 6 hours. Let's see, 6 hours and 24 minutes out of every 8 hour shift you actually have to work? And you get paid for all 8? Do you get a lunch break?
> Ok, Ok, I'm only kidding here! I know you work hard, factory work isn't easy or fun and you work a lot harder than me or a lot of other people do. I generally sit on my butt and ride around for 6 and a half hours of my shifts. However, there are union organizations in area towns that pay the guys nearly double what I make to do the exact same job. And then what I've found is that they no longer seem to care about their job, they get real lazy and don't do anymore than they have to, and all they want to do is talk about how much money the union is getting them. Don't get me wrong, I wish I was in a union so I could bring home more to my family. But my agency is not large enough to start one yet, so what we have is the reverse, the people in charge don't care about employee retention so they don't pay anything. So we lose 2 or 3 people a year to other better paying towns.


DDan
I will tell everyone one fact about factory life. Most of the guys here know I have been working for GM for 30 years now and I am also a elected alternate union rep for the dept that I work in. I can tell you for sure that life like it use to be in the shop is now gone. I tell members everyday that the way we do buisness is changing and we must change with time if we want to stay open. They get mad at me but it is a fact of life, the days of people sitting around and playing cards or sneaking out early are gone. Its long hard work, yes the money is great as are the benfits but even the benfits are changing. We now pay part of our health care cost and don't jump on me because our union was able to keep them all of these years, thats just life. The bottom line is the union shop is a changing all the time to just stay open. I see it everyday and somedays it sucks to tell a guy, I know for 30 years we did it like that but now this is the way we do it. We change so we can keep building Great Trucks right here in the USA but sometime's it hard. Yes I do and will defend the union, they have a done alot for not just the autoworkers but for workers everywhere in our country. Do you think Toyota would be paying $25.00 a hour if it wasn't for what the rest of the Autoworkers get paid?

Regards Mike


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

ThisIsMe;375999 said:


> Oh I agree 100% The big 3 are making it very hard to buy American. Are we to blindly follow along is my point. Point being, will GM be around in 5 or 10 years to help this country, or will they be bought out by like Chrysler? This of course would be a disaster, but it is in the cards, if we like it or not.
> 
> True, Toyota does not employ the number of people that GM does. But who is adding more employees every year while the Big 3 employ less and less. I am not buying a Toyota yet, nor any plans to. But if Toyota can produce a truck with an engine made in the US, or say, made more in the US and supporting US workers, then it is time to rethink. We might not have a choice.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't count out GM just yet as far as Toyota passing them. We know we are in a fight with them and they are going to try to get pass us, but the fat lady hasn't sung yet. Where did you read that the UAW blesses Toyota? I would love to see that quote since all fo Toyota's plant's here in the USA are no union. I would have a hard time beliving the Int UAW would bless anything non union.

Regards Mike


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;376038 said:


> I wouldn't count out GM just yet as far as Toyota passing them. We know we are in a fight with them and they are going to try to get pass us, but the fat lady hasn't sung yet. Where did you read that the UAW blesses Toyota? I would love to see that quote since all fo Toyota's plant's here in the USA are no union. I would have a hard time beliving the Int UAW would bless anything non union.
> 
> Regards Mike


Not bashing GM but the writing is on the wall about Toyota passing them this year. They increased market share 17% last year and only need to increase something like 3% (do not quote me on these numbers) to surpass GM this year. 

Right on UAW's website. http://uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm

They endorse the Tacoma, and wonder if the Tundra is next (maybe just slow to update)?
I had thought the same thing about them being non-union until I saw the blessing. Well except for the Corolla endorsing which is a Toyota/ GM venture (which the UAW has been endorsing since 2000) is it not?

If the UAW is letting them in I am sure it is for membership numbers. UAW just went under the 500,000 mark last year. From an all time high of something like 1.2mil in the 70s. 

I would be curious as to what GM UAW workers think about the Toyota endorsement. Plus now there are claims that non-union Toyota workers are paid more then UAW workers????? I wonder if that is including benefits (retirement, medical, etc.).


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

sonjaab;375997 said:


> Heres a pic of a "superior" toymota after a few years of plowing duty
> (according to the posts)
> http://eddiehabeck.com/broke_truck/break3.jpg


- That photo is already on the prior page.
- Its a 94. Thts way more than a few years...who knows what the owner has done to it over time? 
- Why on earth would plowing of any sort ever break the frame there anyway? Maybe the guy was running 1500lb of ballast or something? Seems like most of the wear from plowing is in the front end, but I don't claim to know everything about this issue.
- This could happen to a domestic truck just as easily if you combine poor maintenance with a dealer jacking the frame in the wrong spot and/or a random batch of weak steel. My brother in law has a mid 90's full size chevy with a snapped frame in the exact same spot...its never had a plow attached to it. This proves exactly nothing except that this could happen to any vehicle.
- Your frequent intentional misspelling of the word Toyota as "toymota" only makes you look ignorant.

I'm not really sure after re-reading the whole thread over that anyone here is trying to say we should all dump our domesticv pickup trucks and go buy a new Tundra...pretty sure thats not the point. Whats been said time and again is the its is hoped that the Big 3 stay focused and continuously improve their product lines so that the history of the 80's surge in import car sales doesn't repeat itself in full size trucks. Right now the import competition is in the light duty mid size trucks, more frequently seen with a jetski, snowmobile or quad runner than a plow and samder...but if they make a successful foray into the the 1/2 ton market you can bet they'll move up the ladder.

Flykelly, thanks for your input...you guys work your asses off and make a great product IMHO...personally my concern is to make sure that tradition continues here in the USA and that it continues to get done by domestic companies as well as up and coming "import" companies producing domestically. I think you may have the most insight into this issue of us all. Out of curiosity, is the manufacturing plant info on the door sticker of the trucks? I have a 2000 Silverado and I'm curious to see where it was made.

Its really too bad that this can't be more of a rational discussion without the name calling. I think its an important issue and I'm genuinely interested in other poeple's viewpoints. Here in W. MA we don't have alot of people directly employed by the Big 3 so I don't get this sort of insight over dinner.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

mayhem;376051 said:


> - Out of curiosity, is the manufacturing plant info on the door sticker of the trucks? I have a 2000 Silverado and I'm curious to see where it was made.


It should be on the door somewhere. My 2500HD was made in Pontiac MI


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

ThisIsMe;376047 said:


> Not bashing GM but the writing is on the wall about Toyota passing them this year. They increased market share 17% last year and only need to increase something like 3% (do not quote me on these numbers) to surpass GM this year.
> 
> Right on UAW's website. http://uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm
> 
> ...


The UAW is not blessing Toyota's new pickup. The link you have is updated every year. The new full size Toyota Pickup is made in a non union plant in Texas. Some of the Toyota Tacoma are made at a UAW plant here in the usa but some are also made at non union plants and the UAW goes on to say the vechile's with a * by the name maybe made by a non union or built outside of the USA and you will need to check the VIN to see where it is built. Make no mistake about this as being a blessing by the UAW. The only way they will ever get the UAWs blessing is to build the cars and trucks an a UAW plant and we all know that will not happen.

Regards Mike


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

mayhem;376051 said:


> - Out of curiosity, is the manufacturing plant info on the door sticker of the trucks? I have a 2000 Silverado and I'm curious to see where it was made.


Not sure about the plant, but the country can be gathered from the VIN:

From the UAW site :

_When purchasing one of these models, check the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN.) A VIN beginning with "1," "4" or "5" identifies a U.S.-made vehicle; "2" identifies a Canadian-made vehicle. Not all vehicles made in the United States or Canada are made by union-represented workers. The Toyota Corolla, for example, is made in the United States by UAW members, but the Canadian model is made in a nonunion plant and other models are imported from a third country. To be sure you have a union-made vehicle, buy one of the vehicles on this list._


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Frozen001;376056 said:


> It should be on the door somewhere. My 2500HD was made in Pontiac MI


Frozen is correct, there will be a sticker on the inside of the drivers door. If it was built at Pontiac it will be a round blue and white sticker that say's 
"This Truck is Builted with pride in Pontaic MIchigan" At Chrismas time our plant collect enough money to buy 300 bike's to give to needy kids in our area. One of the things we did was apply a Pride sticker to each bike so the kids will know where the bikes came from. One of the most enjoyable chrismas I have had in years was when the kids from Grace Center of Hope got their bikes a week before xmas. The look on their face's was worth a million dollars to us.

Regards Mike


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;376057 said:


> The UAW is not blessing Toyota's new pickup. The link you have is updated every year. The new full size Toyota Pickup is made in a non union plant in Texas. Some of the Toyota Tacoma are made at a UAW plant here in the usa but some are also made at non union plants and the UAW goes on to say the vechile's with a * by the name maybe made by a non union or built outside of the USA and you will need to check the VIN to see where it is built. Make no mistake about this as being a blessing by the UAW. The only way they will ever get the UAWs blessing is to build the cars and trucks an a UAW plant and we all know that will not happen.
> 
> Regards Mike


I see. But are the current Tacomas made in the US made by UAW workers? From what I gather from that site is the Tacomas have the same blessing as the full-sized US trucks do (with the given side note). As I read it the US made Tacomas are made by UAW workers.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

ThisIsMe;376063 said:


> I see. But are the current Tacomas made in the US made by UAW workers? From what I gather from that site is the Tacomas have the same blessing as the full-sized US trucks do (with the given side note). As I read it the US made Tacomas are made by UAW workers.


You are correct, but to say the UAW has blessed Toyota as a whole is not correct. They are blessing the Tacomas that are built here in the USA, that are UAW plants. I believe that the Tocoma is built in a joint venture with GM, I maybe wrong on that note. Does anybody have any info on where it is built? If it is the GM plant in California then that;s the joint venture.

Regards Mike


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

MAYHEM..........Ouote: - Your frequent intentional misspelling of the word Toyota as "toymota" only makes you look ignorant.

Quote: Its really too bad that this can't be more of a rational discussion without the name calling. I think its an important issue and I'm genuinely interested in other poeple's viewpoints. 

You words not mine...........................

Stop around Framingham and ask ANY displaced GM worker about TOYMOTA.
The savior and wonderkind of the US auto industry...........


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;376062 said:


> "This Truck is Builted with pride in Pontaic MIchigan" At Chrismas time our plant collect enough money to buy 300 bike's to give to needy kids in our area. One of the things we did was apply a Pride sticker to each bike so the kids will know where the bikes came from.


Now that is nice to see. Not being a wise-ass, but I have to ask; where were the bikes made? I know the American made bikes are pricey!

I only ask as I vaguely remember Schwinn, being forced to go overseas with production thanks to the likes of Walmart. Again if I remember correctly Schwinn was the last US made manufacture of children's bikes. Although I might be wrong on this.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;376063 said:


> As I read it the US made Tacomas are made by UAW workers.


Where are you reading this?


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

flykelley;376065 said:


> You are correct, but to say the UAW has blessed Toyota as a whole is not correct. They are blessing the Tacomas that are built here in the USA, that are UAW plants. I believe that the Tocoma is built in a joint venture with GM, I maybe wrong on that note. Does anybody have any info on where it is built? If it is the GM plant in California then that;s the joint venture.
> 
> Regards Mike


According to Toyota's web site the Tacoma is built in the Fremont, CA plant and the Tijuana, Mexico plan


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;376065 said:


> You are correct, but to say the UAW has blessed Toyota as a whole is not correct. They are blessing the Tacomas that are built here in the USA, that are UAW plants. I believe that the Tocoma is built in a joint venture with GM, I maybe wrong on that note. Does anybody have any info on where it is built? If it is the GM plant in California then that;s the joint venture.
> 
> Regards Mike


As a whole I see that.

Could you be confusing the Toyota Corolla as the GM venture? It is mentioned about half-way down here:

http://www.uaw.org/barg/03/barg07.cfm

I thought the Tacoma was built in a factory constructed by Toyota in KY. ????


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;376074 said:


> As a whole I see that.
> 
> I thought the Tacoma was built in a factory constructed by Toyota in KY. ????


The Kentucky plant makes(Cut and Pasted from Toyota's Website http://www.toyota.com/about/operations/manufacturing/index.html ): Camry 4-door sedan, Avalon sedan (also exported to Japan), Solara coupe/convertible, four-cylinder and V6 engines, axles, steering components, machined blocks, cylinder heads, crankshifts, camshifts and rods & axle assemblies and dies.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;376070 said:


> Where are you reading this?


Here where they "endorse" the Tacoma

http://uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm

and by "as I read it", I mean : I would assume that it is built by UAW workers or why would they be endorsing it???

Got me.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;376077 said:


> Here where they "endorse" the Tacoma
> 
> http://uaw.org/uawmade/auto/2007/index.cfm
> 
> ...


It is endorsed with a * so not all of them are produced by UAW employees...


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;376078 said:


> It is endorsed with a * so not all of them are produced by UAW employees...


Oh that much I see and is what I am referring to. The * being the same as the other Chevy, Dodge, Ford trucks. So if you follow the side note, then you are lead to believe that the Tacomas that are made in the USA (in California) are made by UAW workers......??????


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

ThisIsMe;376069 said:


> Now that is nice to see. Not being a wise-ass, but I have to ask; where were the bikes made? I know the American made bikes are pricey!
> 
> I only ask as I vaguely remember Schwinn, being forced to go overseas with production thanks to the likes of Walmart. Again if I remember correctly Schwinn was the last US made manufacture of children's bikes. Although I might be wrong on this.


 Interesting point about Walmart. I wonder how many companies they've driven to China?

As for that broke in half 94, it broke there because that is where the junk Toyota frames always fail. It has little to do with plowing or ballast, it is because their tiny underbuilt and poorly designed frames trap and hold roadsalt which will eat through within just a few years if not washed carefully. I bought one of those trucks last year, only because it was cheap and the frame was good. Got it cheap, put a new clutch in and sold it for a $1500 profit, less $82 for the clutch. The main selling point of that truck was that the frame was still good, which is almost unheard of around here. I priced a lot of those truck when I was fixing mine up, and I saw that most all of them while still an otherwise good running little truck were no good because they did not have any kind of frame left.

PS Mike, I have to say that was a well-put response to my little rant about the UAW. I was afraid you were going to fly off the handle and go off on me, but instead you handled it well and intelligently replied. I continue to be impressed by you. Nice to be able to express different views when it doesn't disintegrate into name-calling.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Detroitdan;376082 said:


> Interesting point about Walmart. I wonder how many companies they've driven to China?


Sadly far too many. Levis was a major one last year (or was it the year before). They could not compete with the making blue-jeans in America against the off-brands Walmart was importing. Nor would Walmart purchase from Levis due to their high overhead. Levis was forced to close something like 7 plants in the US and send production overseas in order to compete / sell to Walmart. Blue-jeans, an American icon, sadly are not made in the US anymore.

Side-note. Of the imports from China, Walmart consumes something like 30% of them. That is to say if the US imports $1bil from China, $300mil of it ends up on Walmart shelves.


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

sonjaab;376066 said:


> MAYHEM..........Ouote: - Your frequent intentional misspelling of the word Toyota as "toymota" only makes you look ignorant.
> 
> Quote: Its really too bad that this can't be more of a rational discussion without the name calling. I think its an important issue and I'm genuinely interested in other poeple's viewpoints.
> 
> ...


I'm still unsure that anyone here is labeling Toyota as the savior of the US auto industry...if they are I'm not among them.

My words not yours...I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that name calling is your opinion or that I was being a hypocrite? If its the former, ok...I guess thats maybe how you represent your opinion...if its the latter then I beg to differ. Ignorance is often misinterpreted as a synonym of stupidity, and is as thus often taken as an insult, when really it is, in its correct form, not an insult at all but a criticism.

So the mis-spelling toymota has some sort of hidden meaning in Framingham then? Can you please explain it to us? Some of us are ignorant of what you mean.

Until this very moment I had no idea there was ever a GM factory in Framingham...interestingly Wikipedia says it was closed not due to lagging sales and workforce reduction on GM's part, but due to local civic action by citizens and politicians who evidently didn't want a plant in Framingham for some reason or reasons that are not listed. Looking at some of the production runs of the cars listed as being produced there in the mid to late 80's when the plant was closed it doesn't look like they were throttling back on production, but I don't have quick access to production numbers of the cars produced there either.

I'm sure there is more to the story than what's on Wikipedia of course, do you have anything to add? I'm serious here, not busting on you...I actually want to know.



> When purchasing one of these models, check the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN.) A VIN beginning with "1," "4" or "5" identifies a U.S.-made vehicle;


My VIN starts with a 1 so it is in fact a US-built truck. Makes me glad.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

ThisIsMe;376069 said:


> Now that is nice to see. Not being a wise-ass, but I have to ask; where were the bikes made? I know the American made bikes are pricey!
> 
> I only ask as I vaguely remember Schwinn, being forced to go overseas with production thanks to the likes of Walmart. Again if I remember correctly Schwinn was the last US made manufacture of children's bikes. Although I might be wrong on this.


That is a sad part of this Christmas giving program that we had this year. You are correct in stating that most of the bikes being sold in the USA are made oversea's. It was a long and hard talk about what to do about this. It was decided in the end to buy the most bikes to help the largest number of kids this xmas. By the way this plan all came together in a matter of 3 week's. Our goal was 50 bike's, but the employee's and management donated enough money to help 300 kids have a great Xmas. It bought tears to my eye's to see those kids walk up on stage at the Grace Center of Hope and get their bike's. To see 300 bike's bought and assembled by our members on our own time and delivered to the kids make me proud to say I am a member of UAW Local 594.

Regards Mike


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

flykelley;376098 said:


> That is a sad part of this Christmas giving program that we had this year. You are correct in stating that most of the bikes being sold in the USA are made oversea's. It was a long and hard talk about what to do about this. It was decided in the end to buy the most bikes to help the largest number of kids this xmas. By the way this plan all came together in a matter of 3 week's. Our goal was 50 bike's, but the employee's and management donated enough money to help 300 kids have a great Xmas. It bought tears to my eye's to see those kids walk up on stage at the Grace Center of Hope and get their bike's. To see 300 bike's bought and assembled by our members on our own time and delivered to the kids make me proud to say I am a member of UAW Local 594.
> 
> Regards Mike


That is absolutely fantastic to hear!


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;376080 said:


> Oh that much I see and is what I am referring to. The * being the same as the other Chevy, Dodge, Ford trucks. So if you follow the side note, then you are lead to believe that the Tacomas that are made in the USA (in California) are made by UAW workers......??????


If you notice the * on the GM products, the Sierra and Silverado are made in Canada also, but at CAW plants... Both places have unions, which I hope provide similar representation, and have the same goals for their employees. On the other had IMO the Toyota * is due to production in plants with out unions...but then again I could be wrong on this.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

derekbroerse;376104 said:


> That is absolutely fantastic to hear!


Hi Derek
I have to say that I was real proud that day. The effort it took to pull this off in 3 weeks was huge, and it sure was a great day when we delivered those bike's. On a sad note most of the stuff you hear about the UAW workers is all the bad stuff. We will be doing a similar program next Christmas, but we will start a little sooner.

Regards Mike


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Detroitdan;376082 said:


> Interesting point about Walmart. I wonder how many companies they've driven to China?
> 
> PS Mike, I have to say that was a well-put response to my little rant about the UAW. I was afraid you were going to fly off the handle and go off on me, but instead you handled it well and intelligently replied. I continue to be impressed by you. Nice to be able to express different views when it doesn't disintegrate into name-calling.


 Thank You

Regards Mike


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

flykelley;376107 said:


> Hi Derek
> I have to say that I was real proud that day. The effort it took to pull this off in 3 weeks was huge, and it sure was a great day when we delivered those bike's. On a sad note most of the stuff you hear about the UAW workers is all the bad stuff. We will be doing a similar program next Christmas, but we will start a little sooner.
> 
> Regards Mike


I like the included helmets. I assume that was done for liability or fear of some liberal group suing ya.

Then again it is common sense. Not arguing about that, just we do not need the government to enforce common sense.

In Mass I heard there is a new law on the table in Boston, requiring all people on snow-sleds to wear helmets. LOL Talk about nothing better to do, as Boston has had no measurable snow at all this year.

We might as well start buying helmets to ride in a car or truck. That will be the next law to make us all safer.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

ThisIsMe;376118 said:


> I like the included helmets. I assume that was done for liability or fear of some liberal group suing ya.
> 
> Then again it is common sense. Not arguing about that, just we do not need the government to enforce common sense.
> 
> ...


Our Local Credit Union Donated all of the helmets. I'm of the mind set that falling off a bike didn't kill too many of us, so why do we need the government to regulate safety, when it should be common sense. The helmet's were not done because we were worried about being sued, some of our local union members felt that we should also give helmet's so they got ahold of the Credit Union for our Plant and they agreed to buy the helmet's. Don't get me started on the goverment trying to enforce common sense, that's for another day.

Regards Mike


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

MAYHEM............. I will waste bandwith and type SLOWLY so you may
comprehend this....................

Those quotes were YOURS not mine and yes hypocrite may be the correct word.

My spelling of tomota is a SLAM against them and is intentional.................

The plant closing in Framingham was well noted and there were several efforts
to keep the plant open. But high Mass. taxes and other factors were part of
GMs plan to close plants in the late 80s early 90s.................................

Take a trip to several GM truck forums and note the fray and good ol' GM vs.
the terroist toymota. Good reading for a laugh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.pickuptruck.com Go to the war room........Quite funny !

Can't tell I am a GM family/retiree member huh ? Good old Mike aka Flykelley
didn't let the cat outta the bag ! Thanks Mike !
PS....Get building them 07 GMT 900 3/4s.........I want a black 2500 x-cab Chevy or GMC
soon!.............geo


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

sonjaab;376146 said:


> MAYHEM............. I will waste bandwith and type SLOWLY so you may
> comprehend this....................
> 
> Those quotes were YOURS not mine and yes hypocrite may be the correct word.
> ...


Hi George
Good to hear from you. We are building 440 trucks a shift and alot are the 2500HD and 3500 HDs. I can tell you that these are some great Trucks. Some days I think I am the luckest guy around to be able to drive and play with brand new trucks everyday. But then again maybe I am slightly baised towards the best selling and best built truck in this great country.

Regards Mike
Proud Member of UAW Local 594
Builder's of World Class Full Size GM pickups.
This is straight from JD Powers (GM Pontiac Assembly Center has won the JD Powers Award for Best in Class Quality in 2005 and also in 2006.)


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

MIKE...............Yea my bud brought home a new GMT-900 x-cab 1/2 ton
last night. He traded his 04 Chevy for it......I had some transferable GM
discount stuff he used for his purchase...................

I am SO jealous ! But the snow finally stopped and the drives are finally cleared
out and the sun has been out so I was able to touch, feel, and drive it !

My 04 has a big 20k on it. But all the miles were either towing or plowing....
I would like to see a broke d**k toymota work this hard without a whimper or
dealer visit.........................

Thats right ......Those tough trucks don't offer a snow plow prep. pkg. WITH
warranty...........................geo


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

sonjaab;376146 said:


> MAYHEM............. I will waste bandwith and type SLOWLY so you may
> comprehend this....................
> 
> Those quotes were YOURS not mine and yes hypocrite may be the correct word.


Jeesh. Try to have a polite conversation and I get this. Oh well, thanks for the clarification...I am fully aware of what I typed, I was trying to understand your point of view. Sorry if you mistook the definition of "ignorant" to mean "stupid"...it doesn't. I'm not one to resort to name calling or vauge personal insults on the internet. They're unproductive and tend to degenerate useful threads into shouting matches.

Incidentally, the speed of your typing has no effect on bandwidth usage...slow typing just wastes your own time. I realize where you were going with it though, no need to explain it.



> My spelling of tomota is a SLAM against them and is intentional.................


But what does it mean? Is it an acronym? Why is it a slam? Is it a common thing former GM employees say or did you make it up on your own? A quick Google turns up nothing that appears to be relevant. I'm doing my best here to learn something new about an issue that important to the USA from a perspective that I don't have local access to and you're not helping.



> The plant closing in Framingham was well noted and there were several efforts
> to keep the plant open. But high Mass. taxes and other factors were part of
> GMs plan to close plants in the late 80s early 90s.................................


So Toyota had nothing to do with this plant closing then, correct?



> Can't tell I am a GM family/retiree member huh ? Good old Mike aka Flykelley
> didn't let the cat outta the bag ! Thanks Mike !


Is it a secret or something?

Seriously, I'm not trying to hassle you here, I'm making an effort to try and look at this issue from your perspective, but you're not giving me any information apart from mis-spellings and what appear to be vague attempts at insults. Maybe I should stop trying.


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## William B. (Jul 22, 2004)

I love my HD. I only wish that it had the diesel and the DIC. Ill stick with Chevy or possibly GMC


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## roblandscape (Jan 5, 2003)

Has anybody seen the new KIA HDs?


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

1 Yes........Intentional misspelling of toymota pisses the yota faithful off to no end!

2 YES....toymota and other jap companies using the loopholes our dumb elected
officials refused to close so they could keep their home market CLOSED to US
products yet dump their products here almost duty free....................
toymota built its first truck plant a few years back (before NAFTA) so to avoid
the 27%? import truck tax. 
Do you think good ol' American toymota built plants here and Canada out of the
goodness of their hearts? Heck NO ! Only built them here to avoid consumer
backlash and avoid tariffs....................

3 Its not really a secret...I have met a lot of the OLD posters at various snow
plow get togethers either at various trade shows, Hooters, SIMA symposiums,
or at Jerres Service shop in Erie Pa.............................
They know my history. If I mention my GM heritage the zealots lable me as
unfair..................geo


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

sonjaab;376169 said:


> 1 Yes........Intentional misspelling of toymota pisses the yota faithful off to no end!
> 
> 2 YES....toymota and other jap companies using the loopholes our dumb elected
> officials refused to close so they could keep their home market CLOSED to US
> ...


Well Said George. I get that last one alot.

Regards Mike


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

YEA Mike.................Don't ya love it..................Not to mention those
fools bustin' your chops that YOU make too much money for what you do
for a living !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I was I UNION painter by trade I busted my butt for a lot less !

If these fools bought a US/Canadian (new transplants don't count) made vehicle we all could be making the BIG cash ! We could leave the McD/wallyworld jobs for the kids
and not have a family person working for peanuts trying to make ends meet !

Heres a post I found from a happy non union toymota employee:
Found here: http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/02/why_toyota_is_b.html

Heres a post from that link:
As a worker at Toyota, it's very depressing to hear the comments above. Does Toyota really "do a brilliant job of making one person responsible for every key business practice"? What kind of ridiculous b.s. is that? The truth is that at Toyota, you do what you are told without question or you will find yourself out the door faster than a snowball melts in hell. It's really not funny to read what people think about Toyota when they don't work there. Ask all the "Dilberts" that have been hurt by overwork and exhaustion due to overburdened processes and subsequently had their jobs terminated for no reason, except that they can't do their jobs anymore. Shame on everyone who thinks Toyota is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and that unions are the only reason the Big 3 are floundering.


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

sonjaab;376169 said:


> 1 Yes........Intentional misspelling of toymota pisses the yota faithful off to no end!
> 
> 2 YES....toymota and other jap companies using the loopholes our dumb elected
> officials refused to close so they could keep their home market CLOSED to US
> ...


Thank you for your reply. I now know a bit more info about this issue that I did when i woke up this morning. For whatever it may be worth, I don't think you're unfair...its just your point of view and I genuinely appreciate your sharing it.

I remember back in the 80's reading about the import tarriff's and the early import plants on US soil to avoid theose tarriffs...no, I'm not naive enough to think any company does somehting like build plants in the US out of the goodness of their hearts. They're in business to make money, end of story. If there is a loophole you can bet it will be exploited...its unfortunate that the US manufacturers were unable to exploit similar loopholes in the Asian trade laws.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

Have to drive a Chevy. Have to. GMCs are ok too, (not for me, for other people who want a little variety). I would build them if I could, but there are no factories near where I live. I have built some Chevys at home, but they were old and already built one or more times. I am so hard-core Chevy I have a vanity plate with Chevy on it on my truck and also an antique vanity plate that's been on a couple 66 Chevys. I bleed Chevy Orange.

I just spent five minutes counting all the Chevys I've owned. Not including parts trucks or Pontiacs, I've owned 20, almost all pickups (couple GMCs mixed in) including 3 new SUVs I've bought the wife. That list also includes several antique muscle cars. One thing I noticed looking at my list is they've gotten progressively larger as I've gotten older, starting with a V8 Monza, then some S-10s, and working my way up through the ranks to the current k3500 extended cab dually. I think next will be a crewcab 3500hd dually Dmax. After that I guess I'll have to look for a Kodiak. I also notice I keep them a lot longer now. Used to get bored and replace them every few months, now the last one was over 3 years, this one is over 4 years. 
Just some rambling to pass the time. I know it had absolutely nothing to do with the thread. Did I mention I love Chevys?


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## cjasonbr (Nov 18, 2005)

This is the stupidest thread. I would never buy a foreign HD pick-up...

Also: Everyone is talking about "just give toyota time they will come out with 3/4 and 1-tons. My question is this: Why haven't they done it already? Is someone going to tell me that Toyota doesn't know how to make a heavier duty truck? Perhaps toyota is stumped on how to strengthen the frame? OR maybe Toyota... you get the idea. Toyota is fully capable of manufacrturing these trucks. Perhaps Toyota knows A) When they're beat and B) When they're beat.

And if anyone wants to compare GM, Mopar and Ford's market hold on HD pick-ups to their market hold on compact car sales and SUV sales. This is you =>


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## Antnee77 (Oct 25, 2005)

cjasonbr;376484 said:


> This is the stupidest thread. I would never buy a foreign HD pick-up...
> 
> Also: Everyone is talking about "just give toyota time they will come out with 3/4 and 1-tons. My question is this: Why haven't they done it already? Is someone going to tell me that Toyota doesn't know how to make a heavier duty truck? Perhaps toyota is stumped on how to strengthen the frame? OR maybe Toyota... you get the idea. Toyota is fully capable of manufacrturing these trucks. Perhaps Toyota knows A) When they're beat and B) When they're beat.
> 
> And if anyone wants to compare GM, Mopar and Ford's market hold on HD pick-ups to their market hold on compact car sales and SUV sales. This is you =>


What on God's green earth are you talking about? Toyota is taking away from GM's market share as we speak. They're beat? They're in a much better financial state than the American companies as far as I can see.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

cjasonbr;376484 said:


> This is the stupidest thread. I would never buy a foreign HD pick-up...
> 
> Also: Everyone is talking about "just give toyota time they will come out with 3/4 and 1-tons. My question is this: Why haven't they done it already? Is someone going to tell me that Toyota doesn't know how to make a heavier duty truck? Perhaps toyota is stumped on how to strengthen the frame? OR maybe Toyota... you get the idea. Toyota is fully capable of manufacrturing these trucks. Perhaps Toyota knows A) When they're beat and B) When they're beat.
> 
> And if anyone wants to compare GM, Mopar and Ford's market hold on HD pick-ups to their market hold on compact car sales and SUV sales. This is you =>


For anyone to make such a statement; it clearly shows that you do not remember when the Big three (or was it four at that time), where pretty much the only car manufactures in the US.

I think someone made the same comment in the early 80s claiming that the imports could never compete with the luxury 4-door cars from the big 3. LOL


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

In the 70's the big 3 laughed at the Honda Accord.

In the 80's Mercedes and BMW laughed at Lexus.

History has a way of repeating itself.

Funny thing though, Toyota is so happy with the see-saw commercial that they released a behind the scenes video on their website hsowing the production of the video (and presumably proving its real and not special effects). Go watch the video and keep an eye on the vehicles in the background.

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/minisite/commercial/tundra_tv1.html


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

mayhem;379183 said:


> In the 70's the big 3 laughed at the Honda Accord.


...and probably still would be if Honda did the same as every other company and actually replaced its car lines once in a while with a new model... Accords and Civics have been around since the stone ages.

A friend had an '89 Accord. What a pile of crap. Gutless yet ran forever, and rotted from the inside out. And Civics don't seem repairable after a collision. Two friends had mid '90s Civics, both are totalled...

I'll pass.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

Is Toyota trying to say that their truck is the only one that can do this? Are they saying that their big brakes are what is stopping this? No, but that's what they want you to believe. Funny they don't say anything about trailer brakes. The brakes on the trailer are stopping the 10,000 lbs. Has absolutely nothing to do with the truck in front of it. Obviously there is additional load on the truck itself, but that's what trucks are made for, towing and stopping etc. I would like to see the big 3 show up and hook up to that trailer just to prove that ANY properly equipped truck can do that stupid stunt. All I can say is if you are going to tow 10,000 lbs, you darn well better be able to stop it, or don't go down the hill in the first place.
What's with that other commercial where they stop just before going into the canyon? Why would you attempt a test like that? Is there a big pile of test Toyotas at the bottom of the cliff, with smaller brakes?


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

Detroitdan;379188 said:


> What's with that other commercial where they stop just before going into the canyon? Why would you attempt a test like that? Is there a big pile of test Toyotas at the bottom of the cliff, with smaller brakes?


LOL I had to laugh at this one... agreed.

Would that be classified as littering? You get fined if your dog leaves a pile of crap somewhere...


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

derekbroerse;379187 said:


> ...and probably still would be if Honda did the same as every other company and actually replaced its car lines once in a while with a new model... Accords and Civics have been around since the stone ages.


I'm not sure where you're going with this. The Accord has been eating the midsize sedan market for lunch for a decade now, changing the top spot back and forth with the Camry...last domestic nameplate I remeber seeing there was the second generation Taurus in the early 90's. C/K pickups have been around forever too...this is a good thing. Honda is applying the exact same formula every other car manufacturer does...if you have a successful line with good name recognition you evolve it and keep the name...if its not successful you axe the nameplate and replace the product wiht something else. How long has the 911 nameplate been around? The Camry? Corrolla? Town Car? Impala? F Series?

I didn't want to start the whole flame war all over again guys, I just though especially the hardcore domestic guys would get a kick out of seeing a bunch of Superduty Fords doing all the work behind the Toyota commercials.


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

mayhem;379215 said:


> I'm not sure where you're going with this. The Accord has been eating the midsize sedan market for lunch for a decade now, changing the top spot back and forth with the Camry...last domestic nameplate I remeber seeing there was the second generation Taurus in the early 90's. C/K pickups have been around forever too...this is a good thing. Honda is applying the exact same formula every other car manufacturer does...if you have a successful line with good name recognition you evolve it and keep the name...if its not successful you axe the nameplate and replace the product wiht something else. How long has the 911 nameplate been around? The Camry? Corrolla? Town Car? Impala? F Series?
> 
> I didn't want to start the whole flame war all over again guys, I just though especially the hardcore domestic guys would get a kick out of seeing a bunch of Superduty Fords doing all the work behind the Toyota commercials.


Not going anywhere specific other than to say that every other automaker comes up with something new to give the public, something flashy and appealing, to keep the interest levels up. Honda keeps the same names forever. Sure Accords got laughed at in the 70's, but they are Honda's latest and greatest still so they have to be taken seriously now. Older ones are still laughed at.

Note that Impala was gone for a bunch of years, returning only in the mid 90's as the Impala SS package on the Caprice body... only later on did it come back as a dedicated model. Funny really how Caprice replaced the Impala as the top-dog luxo-barge in '66 only to be replaced by the Impala again decades later!

You'll have to fill me in on what the Fords are doing in the commercial, I'm on dialup and it takes forever to download videos.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

derekbroerse;379223 said:


> Not going anywhere specific other than to say that every other automaker comes up with something new to give the public, something flashy and appealing, to keep the interest levels up. Honda keeps the same names forever. Sure Accords got laughed at in the 70's, but they are Honda's latest and greatest still so they have to be taken seriously now. Older ones are still laughed at.
> 
> Note that Impala was gone for a bunch of years, returning only in the mid 90's as the Impala SS package on the Caprice body... only later on did it come back as a dedicated model. Funny really how Caprice replaced the Impala as the top-dog luxo-barge in '66 only to be replaced by the Impala again decades later!
> 
> You'll have to fill me in on what the Fords are doing in the commercial, I'm on dialup and it takes forever to download videos.


The fords are being used by the construction crew that built the see-saw... which means nothing other than the company that was hired to build the see-saw had ford trucks...The funny thing to me about that behind the scenes video, it looks like the Toyota doesn't actually start from a dead stop when it goes up the ramp.. or is it just me??


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

Frozen001;379224 said:


> The fords are being used by the construction crew that built the see-saw... which means nothing other than the company that was hired to build the see-saw had ford trucks...


Correct, but the ironic part was that its on Toyota's website. Someone shoud have caught it and digitalley edited them out or chaged them into Toyotas or something.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

All this Toyota talk and has anyone seen one out yet??


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

ThisIsMe;376118 said:


> We might as well start buying helmets to ride in a car or truck. That will be the next law to make us all safer.


I can't begin to think of the stunts I would have tried in my 1st car if I was always wearing a helmet


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

derekbroerse;379223 said:


> Sure Accords got laughed at in the 70's, but they are Honda's latest and greatest still so they have to be taken seriously now. Older ones are still laughed at.


Who was laughing?

Why now? The Accord has been in Car and Drivers top ten 21 times out of the last 25 years.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Joe D;379457 said:


> I can't begin to think of the stunts I would have tried in my 1st car if I was always wearing a helmet


Same here, seeing that my first car was used to reproduce the Dukes of Hazard on the local streets.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;379231 said:


> All this Toyota talk and has anyone seen one out yet??


Believe it or not I stopped and looked at one in a used lot today, 7k on her with plow and tool box. Not for me though.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;379488 said:


> Believe it or not I stopped and looked at one in a used lot today, 7k on her with plow and tool box. Not for me though.


I'm talking about the new Tundra...


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

I saw one several weeks ago, had a magnetic sticker from a dealership on the doors saying it was a courtesy vehicle, like a loaner or something. It was a funny darkish green color, very bland yucky color. I thought the truck was hideous looking. The older Tundra was better looking, and that ain't saying much.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;379610 said:


> I'm talking about the new Tundra...


That is what I am talking about, the new Tundra. I was amazed to see one on the used lot already.


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## Frozen001 (Oct 20, 2004)

ThisIsMe;379634 said:


> That is what I am talking about, the new Tundra. I was amazed to see one on the used lot already.


with a plow?? what kind... I have heard the front axle rating is not very high on them...


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## scholzee (Nov 9, 2001)

Fuccillos on Grand Island NY has one with a Fisher straight blade on it, looks like at least 7' 6 " definitly not a homesteader. I will try to get a picture seems like its out on alot of test drives because I see it so often. Looks like it carries the blade well, maybe I will try to get some pics, could test drive it but I would just be a tire kicker as I cannot afford new.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Frozen001;379736 said:


> with a plow?? what kind... I have heard the front axle rating is not very high on them...


Yep. It has a Blizzard on it. I did not note the type of Blizzard but a small one. Strange to see one used for sell so fast.

Seems like the axle rating is a mystery to me as well. I have yet to find it's rating.


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## Yaz (Apr 13, 2005)

ThisIsMe;379785 said:


> Yep. It has a Blizzard on it. I did not note the type of Blizzard but a small one. Strange to see one used for sell so fast.
> 
> Seems like the axle rating is a mystery to me as well. I have yet to find it's rating.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

By a stroke of God I found it.


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## Yaz (Apr 13, 2005)

Nice find!


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Yaz;379835 said:


> Nice find!


True. Now all we need is weight distribution and we can find how much room it has.


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

One of the trucks at the Mass con show had a 4000lb front axle rating, it had the same 4100lb rear though.
Thats plenty for a 1/2 ton truck. 
Toyota dealer in Acton MA has one out front with a 7.5 Fisher on it. 
I still don't like them though


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

My door sticker says the same as a 5.7 liter gas 3500. I think I would have better torsion bars, but if not my 6.5 has used up considerably more of that 4250 lbs. 
That Toyota frame picture is something else. It looks like a plow would tear the front of the truck off.


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## Yaz (Apr 13, 2005)

Call me pig headed or whatever. Even if they are a tiny little better at some things and believe me I'm not saying that at all. I don't think we should buy one just because we need to support USA and our American company's. I know people will come back with the parts are made here and there but how can the American companies compete with labor rates in other counties? They can't, so lets help them at the same time fight to bring the labor back here. Believe me the first one that says they are better is just justifying why the screwed an American worker and it's bull that they are really are better. We all know just about any car made does the same thing it takes us from point a to b. As for plowing it really not like any Toyota ever plowed better than American truck so lets not go there. Many of my friends that had any argument about buying American don't no crap about cars and how they really work. they put in gas and change the oil and think they are so smart picking out oil. It's not until a Toyota or foreign can failed them that they finally listen and a few have switched. 

OK I'm done. Thanks for letting me vent.. This is a Chevy truck discussion so I guess it's OK.


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

Yaz;380031 said:


> Call me pig headed or whatever. Even if they are a tiny little better at some things and believe me I'm not saying that at all. I don't think we should buy one just because we need to support USA and our American company's. I know people will come back with the parts are made here and there but how can the American companies compete with labor rates in other counties? They can't, so lets help them at the same time fight to bring the labor back here. Believe me the first one that says they are better is just justifying why the screwed an American worker and it's bull that they are really are better. We all know just about any car made does the same thing it takes us from point a to b. As for plowing it really not like any Toyota ever plowed better than American truck so lets not go there. Many of my friends that had any argument about buying American don't no crap about cars and how they really work. they put in gas and change the oil and think they are so smart picking out oil. It's not until a Toyota or foreign can failed them that they finally listen and a few have switched.
> 
> OK I'm done. Thanks for letting me vent.. This is a Chevy truck discussion so I guess it's OK.


I agree. Support your AMERICAN workers


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## rcpd34 (Jan 16, 2004)

Sorry guys. When it comes to trucks I wouldn't even consider one that was foreign made. If you're gonna buy the Jap stuff I don't wanna hear you complain about the economy.

:yow

(This oughtta stir up the pot)


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

I realize this doesn't relate to the truck thread but what about all our equipment we use? I know all of mine is not made in the US cuz I think some of that US make stuff is junk.

But I have to agree with the Chevy fans here! Buy USA - Keep USA workers, and I am still waiting for my dealer to get a 4 door HD! Then I hope I can help the auto workers a little by buying a good ol american truck!


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## rcpd34 (Jan 16, 2004)

There is no way to get away from it. However, I do what I can. Even my Harley has some foreign parts on it.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

I just read something on MSN that said Toyota claims to employ 300,000 in the US, but if you read the small print they are counting all suppliers, suppliers of suppliers, everybody that is remotely involved with the construction of the plants and vehicles, not actual autoworkers. Very misleading, apparently the actual number of autoworkers they employ is around 36,000. Most if not all of their tooling and R&D comes from Japan, basically they just assemble the cars here. And they (along with Honda) still import many more cars from Japan than they build here. It's all just a cleverly orchestrated PR scheme to make themselves look like they are American made cars.


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## rcpd34 (Jan 16, 2004)

Detroitdan;383152 said:


> I just read something on MSN that said Toyota claims to employ 300,000 in the US, but if you read the small print they are counting all suppliers, suppliers of suppliers, everybody that is remotely involved with the construction of the plants and vehicles, not actual autoworkers. Very misleading, apparently the actual number of autoworkers they employ is around 36,000. Most if not all of their tooling and R&D comes from Japan, basically they just assemble the cars here. And they (along with Honda) still import many more cars from Japan than they build here. It's all just a cleverly orchestrated PR scheme to make themselves look like they are American made cars.


I hope nobody here is really surprised by this.


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

Anybody with pics of a 4 door model and or the 3500?

I have seen a few Chevy ext cab 2500HD and GMC's. I kind like the GMC's front look better. Chevy just has to much "shine" under those headlights.


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

Just sat in the new toyota crew max. Nice cab! Really roomy. Sales guy told me that they like this market, see how things go and maybe a 3/4 ton. But he said there target is the subera mother / stay at home dad who need the truck for weekends etc. Like the commercials - there commercials! He wondered how Ford all of a sudden raised there towing to 11K with the same truck? He said same thing about the brakes - sure Toyotas are the biggest but with a trailer - they come with brakes as well!

He said there biggest compition is Chevy. Excellent ride, nice truck, etc. Ford sells alot of trucks but said they are built cheaper yet offer a nice range of options and design to appeal to the public. 

He said Nissan is backing out the bigger stuff and is going to stay with there truck, and focus more on the cars - that is what made nissan. 

That was about it - then I went and looked at the new GMC's again - next lot over!


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

FINALLY! My Gm dealer just received a 4 door D max LT short bed 2500 HD truck. Nice truck! Although I still don't know about the front dumper with all that chrome.

Now he said he couldn't get a 3500??? I would like the short bed 4 door LT 3500 but maybe i can't. The D max seemed awesome for the 20 miles I took it. Although I think I will wait for the 08 cuz my dealer said for about the same money and a few months later the 08's will be out.

Yeck my Ford dealer has the new Super duty and they are being billed as an 08 model.


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## rcpd34 (Jan 16, 2004)

jvm81;387026 said:


> FINALLY! My Gm dealer just received a 4 door D max LT short bed 2500 HD truck. Nice truck! Although I still don't know about the front dumper with all that chrome.
> 
> Now he said he couldn't get a 3500??? I would like the short bed 4 door LT 3500 but maybe i can't. The D max seemed awesome for the 20 miles I took it. Although I think I will wait for the 08 cuz my dealer said for about the same money and a few months later the 08's will be out.
> 
> Yeck my Ford dealer has the new Super duty and they are being billed as an 08 model.


3500 only comes with the long bed.


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