# Mixing Cal, Mag, etc. for Liquid De-Icing??



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

I have a question about mixing ratios for liquid products. 

When a product is say.. 

30% calcium chloride
5% magnesium
3% potassium

What are those percentages? Weight? Molecules? Volume? 

Any help would be great. Thanks!


----------



## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

lawnprolawns;698386 said:


> I have a question about mixing ratios for liquid products.
> 
> When a product is say..
> 
> ...


not sure what the Q' is......but it look's like a 38% chloride solution,...should have a specific gravity of ~1.35 and a weight of ~11.6lb/gal

or maybee youre answer is.......% per volume,....not weight

does that answer youre Q?..........

PJ


----------



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

That might answer my question. I wish I remembered what specific gravity was. 

How about this, to put it in simple terms for someone like me who got a 60% in chemisty..

If I had one gallon of water, or 8.3lbs of water, how much calcium chloride would I want to add? And would I measure it by weight, or volume? Sorry.. I ought to go do some research.


----------



## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

lawnprolawns;698652 said:


> That might answer my question. I wish I remembered what specific gravity was.
> 
> How about this, to put it in simple terms for someone like me who got a 60% in chemisty..
> 
> If I had one gallon of water, or 8.3lbs of water, how much calcium chloride would I want to add? And would I measure it by weight, or volume? Sorry.. I ought to go do some research.


a little less than 3 pound's.......but when you add the 3 pound's you'll remove some water (hence the reason "a little less than 3 pounds"

when youre done,.......weigh a gallon of it in a milk jug, and it should weigh 11.3# plus the weight of the jug, wich is basically nothin,

i would suggest either buying a hydrometer for about $50 or buy a $10 digital fish scale so you can weigh youre milk jug.. work's great

hope this helps


----------



## fernalddude (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok have done the math here you go on dry to H2O 
CaCl2 - 2.8 lbs pe gal H2O=33%
MgCl2 - 1.8 lbs per gal H2O =21.6%
NaCl - 2.5 lbs per gal H2O = 30%
So about 3 lbs per gal Of H20 gives you better than 30%
Now add that to the weight of water and you have pounds per gal. 
Dump a 50 lbs bag of what ever to 150 gal of water.....


----------



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

Thank you both.


----------



## fernalddude (Feb 15, 2004)

Now remember you are going to start a reaction when you add the both together so be ready for some heat in the mix tank and you need to stir this so some type recycle pump or mixxer...


----------



## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

fernalddude;699731 said:


> Now remember you are going to start a reaction when you add the both together so be ready for some heat in the mix tank and you need to stir this so some type recycle pump or mixxer...


lol,......yeah techniacally there will be some heat,......it will be verry minor,

in a perfect reaction, there is only 250BTU per pound,......that is not enough to "feel" .....depending on water temp and how fast the calcium disolves, it probabaly wont even be enough heat to warm the water but just a couple of degree's

it's not going to melt down youre plastic tank lol

PJ


----------



## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

powerjoke;700012 said:


> lol,......yeah techniacally there will be some heat,......it will be verry minor,
> 
> in a perfect reaction, there is only 250BTU per pound,......that is not enough to "feel" .....depending on water temp and how fast the calcium disolves, it probabaly wont even be enough heat to warm the water but just a couple of degree's
> 
> ...


PJ i got who it was on here, but they said they weremixing calcuim flake in water... and it got "HOT" and he was surpirsed at the amount of heat produced

i dont know if he confused WARM with HOT...but thats what was stated


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

elite1msmith;700014 said:


> PJ i got who it was on here, but they said they weremixing calcuim flake in water... and it got "HOT" and he was surpirsed at the amount of heat produced
> 
> i dont know if he confused WARM with HOT...but thats what was stated


From my expeirence the tank does get pretty warm, as you can feel the heat it produced. You should always add water first then the chemical and the heat is nothing to worry about though.


----------



## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

i cant say that i can really argue one way or another.....When i make my solution, i use a hot water power washer, so it is already pumping out almost 250* water,......but at 250 btu per pound x 50 lb of CaCl2 it would only be 11,500btu......and that little of amount of heat can not bring too much warmth to 150 gallon of water.

anyway's one thing is for sure, it wont melt the tank  

pj


----------



## KCAPXIS (Jan 7, 2006)

what are you going to use this liquid for ?? Pretreat, melt snow, or pre wet salt ? and for 150 gal of water at 3lb/gal dont you need 450 lbs??


----------



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

KCAPXIS;700472 said:


> what are you going to use this liquid for ?? Pretreat, melt snow, or pre wet salt ? and for 150 gal of water at 3lb/gal dont you need 450 lbs??


Mostly to treat lots and subdivisions after plowing, and some pre-treating. And yes... it seems that 450 lbs would be correct..


----------



## fernalddude (Feb 15, 2004)

DUH cant even do my own math my bad too many yes 450 =150 gal...


----------



## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

fernalddude;700844 said:


> DUH cant even do my own math my bad too many


lmao......don't feel bad, i missed it too....hell i even done my math off of youre's and didnt catch my mistake or youre's lol

oh'well......maybe the tank will catch on fire and melt the truck then  haha

pj


----------



## fernalddude (Feb 15, 2004)

OMG What if we made that batch last nite and applied it then had to explain it


----------



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

fernalddude;700865 said:


> OMG What if we made that batch last nite and applied it then had to explain it


Well if that happened, you would have saved a lot of money in de-icing. And had not so good results.

Funny.. I read the 50/150 thing and thought "sounds good" Didn't catch it.


----------



## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

fernalddude;700865 said:


> OMG What if we made that batch last nite and applied it then had to explain it


We need more solution lmao..

kinda like the ole joke 'bout the farmer that was telling another farmer, that he is just not making any money buying corn for $1.50 and selling it for $1.50........"we need a bigger truck"

PJ


----------



## SnowMelt2006 (Nov 27, 2006)

Here is the correct percentages and amounts:

To Make 1 gallon of 32% Solution Using:

83-87% Dowflake Xtra - 4 lbs
Water - 0.8 gallons
Solution Density - 11.01

To make 32% using 77-78% imported calcium flake:

Calcium Flake - 5 lbs.
Water - 0.8 gallons
Solution Density - 11.01


----------



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

Grrrrr. I cant seem to get 150 lbs of salt to dissolve into 55 gals of water. More mixing and circulation? I also cant get a gallon of water to weigh more than 9.5 lbs.. no matter how hard I try. I'm kind of stumped. Any others doing this?


----------



## fernalddude (Feb 15, 2004)

Here we go again LOL how are you adding the salt the best way is to have the water run over the salt then recirculate it back over the salt till gone.


----------



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

water is fed through the bottom, then pulled from the top and fed to the bottom again. and again and again and again. who knows. I need to get a good hydrometer first.


----------



## fernalddude (Feb 15, 2004)

is the salt just in the bottom or is there a shelf in the drum?


----------



## Metro Lawn (Nov 20, 2003)

You may want to check on this, but I have been told that solutions of more than 32% chlorides in cold weather will have "fall out". This means it will separate without a spray unit that has aggitation. This is why Dow and other companies only sell 32% or less in the winter. Basically you could end up making ice by spraying water.


----------



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

fernalddude;813617 said:


> is the salt just in the bottom or is there a shelf in the drum?


Just in the bottom. Both the fresh water inlet and the recirculation outlet are in the bottom also, so the salt is getting blasted with water.



Metro Lawn;813733 said:


> You may want to check on this, but I have been told that solutions of more than 32% chlorides in cold weather will have "fall out". This means it will separate without a spray unit that has aggitation. This is why Dow and other companies only sell 32% or less in the winter. Basically you could end up making ice by spraying water.


I have heard similar..was told that they would crystalize or something too. According to some others, 23-24% concentration is ideal for salt brine.

I just ordered a refractometer for measuring specific gravity and salinity of liquids.. hopefully this will give me some real data and end this frustration.

I thought I already posted this.. maybe I forgot to hit post... anyways..

Water has a salinity of 0, the ideal salt solution has a salinity of 85. My current scale goes up to 40... so I figured mix 50% water and 50% salt solution, and it should be right around 40. Still pegged though, had to do about 60%/40% before I could get the pointer to go down. Maybe I have enough concentration... not really sure.


----------



## Metro Lawn (Nov 20, 2003)

Why go to all that trouble to make brine when you can get it in this area for like 30 cents a gallon?


----------



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

No idea really.. haha. 

Actually, I've seen the results of pure salt brine that E&B Maint. out of Farmington made/used. I was quite impressed, and they said it works better for wet stuff, and will melt more than cacl2. They said they tried both all last season and liked salt brine a lot more. 

I am working on getting a quote from the chloride guy also, just as a plan b.

Another thing is most of my accounts want rock salt, so I might not even use much liquid, so I dont want to get 5K gals of it with no demand. 

We'll see. For now, it's a fun science experiment.


----------



## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

lawnprolawns;814168 said:


> No idea really.. haha.
> 
> I am working on getting a quote from the chloride guy also, just as a plan b.
> 
> ...


I am also waiting for my quote from the calchloride guy...I am sure he is busy right now. If we were closer I would go in on a 5K with you but we aren't sooo. I might just get a couple totes depending on what contracts come back in.

My contracts say "ice management for xxx" so I just do what it takes to melt the stuff.


----------



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

My refractometer just came in the mail yesterday! (yay). I just put a few drops of water that has been sitting in rock salt for a few days in for a test, and it's off the chart. Looks like it's time to make some more brine and see what the reading is. 

By the way.. I dont even know what a refractometer is, but I found it on ebay, and it's supposed to work great. Lol.


----------



## LetitSnow1999 (May 6, 2008)

*What would be the specific gravity? - of each, if you dont mind*



SnowMelt2006;703211 said:


> Here is the correct percentages and amounts:
> 
> To Make 1 gallon of 32% Solution Using:
> 
> ...


do you know what the specific gravity would be of each?


----------



## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Possibly because once you have a brine maker setup you can make it for less than 12 cents per gallon? I use a Salimeter. 0-25% scale. I now mix 90/10 salt brine/calcium chloride for a liquid mix. Decreases salt usage a lot, also decreases liquid calcium chloride usage, good for the bottom line $$, not so good for salesmen of salt and calcium chloride!


----------



## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

lawnprolawns;698386 said:


> I have a question about mixing ratios for liquid products.
> 
> When a product is say..
> 
> ...


If it's a dry product I would guess it to be weight. If it was a liquid product, I would guess that to be volume ( gallon ) When I mix a 90/10 mixture in gallons, that would be 90 gallons of ? and 10 gallons of ? = 100 % in gallons. Does that help any?


----------

