# Young Entrepreneur Looking to enter the Snow Plowing Business...help please?



## Shepard at FPC

Hi guys.

So I'm sure you get all kinds of young dudes on here who like the idea of going into plowing but really have no clue what they're getting themselves into, and I'm sure I'm that way a little bit, but I do know what hard work is, and believe me, I know snow plowing is not by any means easy. 

That said, I need a LOT of advice on how to get started, etc. So I'm going to post some questions in this thread, and if you have direct answers, that'd be great, or if you have other thread links from this site feel free to direct those my way also. 

First off, I'm only 15 yrs old this year. So obviously not going into the snow plowing business this winter, and obviously it'd be just a LITTLE late to get into it. ;-) 

My biggest concern is of course, that I'll be going into next year snow plowing, as a 16 yr old. That alone is bad because who is going to want a 16 yr old doing their parking lots/driveways? But the real problem is insurance. I don't know who to talk to, but I have a feeling that until I'm 18 it's going to be very difficult if not impossible to find an insurance company who will cover me. And if I can it will probably cost a fortune. My parents are (kind of) supporters of my business so if necessary, or if I could save money so doing, I could MAYBE run the whole thing as if it's my Dad's deal even though I'm doing the work. If anybody has any idea where to even start with that I'd really appreciate it.

Also any tips on a good first truck/plow? I'm thinking that I need at least a 3/4 ton or 1 ton, although we do already have a 1/2 ton F-150. In our area I've noticed that there are a lot of Ford Excursions that are nice, leather seats, etc. 4x4, with under 150,000 miles for around $4000-$5000. That's with the 6.8L gas motor. I'd personally like the 7.3L diesel, as that's a great motor and I'm a diesel fan...but not sure if it's really worth the premium I'd pay for it. Any thoughts on the Ford Excursions? I'm just as happy with an F-250 or F-350 (yeah I'm a Ford guy...but I'm open to Chevy, not Dodge though) but what I've found is that they are more expensive, and normally more banged up. People buy trucks for work, whereas SUVs are often the family vehicle. And other than softer front suspension for a better ride, an Excursion is the same thing as an F-250. And I could put the extra seats to good use...but I think the pickup bed in a truck would also be handy so either way. 

I know that I've already triggered a bunch of opinions in asking about what kind of truck to buy...so maybe don't worry about the brand advice so much as what really matters? I'm leaning towards Ford simply because I think they're a good brand for their trucks, and around here they are cheaper than Chevy. And since I know more about them I figure I'd be just as well off with one. 
'
Any tips on what to look for in a plow? I'm thinking maybe an 8-9' plow...brand advice is all over the place I know but I'd still be open to advice on it. 

I can probably figure out the equipment related stuff myself, what I really need help with is the business itself. Ideally I'd have maybe $8000-10,000 into my truck/plow setup, so I'd have that much in upfront, and then insurance, gas, repairs, etc. are all going to be major expenses during the winter season. So if I'm lucky I'm going to have spent, say $15000 by the end of the season? Does that sound about right, or am I making it easier on myself than it is? So ideally I'd really like to pay that off during the first season, because I'd really be needing the money back. That will be literally almost all of my money, or all of it really, so although I do have Grandparents and my parents who would likely be happy to loan me money to get started, I'd like to avoid that if at all possible...and if I did borrow money I'd have to be really sure that I'd be able to pay it off quickly. How much is a realistic figure on the amount of money I could make on my first season?

I'm not afraid of hard work, I know what it is to go for a long time without sleep, and believe me, it's NOT fun. But overall it'd be worth it to me. And of course I'll have school. A big plus as far as what accounts I could responsibly take on is that I'm home schooled. My teacher (my mom  ) is very nice about letting me flex school around other things so long as I actually do it. ;-) So during a storm I can be out any time of day or night working when necessary. 

As far as backup plow trucks go...I'd have to talk to some people to work something out, but I have quite a few friends in the business, or with a plow truck, so I would imagine I could work out a deal with them where we cover each other, or something of that type.

So I'm sure I'm forgetting some details, but I just want to know from people who have experience in this, whether going into the business would be a realistic thing to do, and whether I could actually get accounts enough to pay off my insurance and equipment costs.

I live in SW Michigan. There are a lot of plow guys around here, but most of them are uninsured unreliable ******** who have no idea what they're doing. If I could pick up enough accounts to get by for the first couple of years while creating a good name for myself, that could go a long ways. I have a 19 yr old friend who is going into plowing this year and he has about half a dozen commercial accounts already and about the same number of driveways. So obviously it's possible for a young person to pick up accounts, but I'm even younger so who knows.

As far as experience goes...I don't have much experience plowing. I have done snow blowing (about 15 driveways around the neighborhood) for two years, this is my third, so I mean I know a little but that is nothing like plowing. I don't have insurance, pay taxes, nor do I have a contract with even one of those customers. So definitely not professional, but whatever. It's about all a 15 yr old can do. You can do a lot more once you turn 16, and even more once you're 18. But it's difficult and I haven't gotten too serious about it as I really haven't had to. But college is coming up and I have to pay for owning a vehicle, and all the costs that come with that, etc. so I need to either start working for somebody or get serious about business if I want to make any money. Maybe working for somebody is the best way to go at this age, far less risk and work etc. but I'm the type who likes to be the big guy, not the employee, so if at all possible I want to do it on my own. Like I said, I'm not afraid of hard work. I'm also mechanically "inclined" so I'll be doing almost all of (well, hopefully all of) my repairs, and obviously maintenance. I've got friends who have heated barns, tools, and lifts, so I'm lucky in that sense. And I have friends who would help me get things fixed if I were in a jam, so that does definitely help me with my expenses. 

So yeah...thanks in advance for any help!!

Shepard


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## Shepard at FPC

Shepard at FPC;1894926 said:


> Hi guys.
> 
> So I'm sure you get all kinds of young dudes on here who like the idea of going into plowing but really have no clue what they're getting themselves into, and I'm sure I'm that way a little bit, but I do know what hard work is, and believe me, I know snow plowing is not by any means easy.
> 
> That said, I need a LOT of advice on how to get started, etc. So I'm going to post some questions in this thread, and if you have direct answers, that'd be great, or if you have other thread links from this site feel free to direct those my way also.
> 
> First off, I'm only 15 yrs old this year. So obviously not going into the snow plowing business this winter, and obviously it'd be just a LITTLE late to get into it. ;-)
> 
> My biggest concern is of course, that I'll be going into next year snow plowing, as a 16 yr old. That alone is bad because who is going to want a 16 yr old doing their parking lots/driveways? But the real problem is insurance. I don't know who to talk to, but I have a feeling that until I'm 18 it's going to be very difficult if not impossible to find an insurance company who will cover me. And if I can it will probably cost a fortune. My parents are (kind of) supporters of my business so if necessary, or if I could save money so doing, I could MAYBE run the whole thing as if it's my Dad's deal even though I'm doing the work. If anybody has any idea where to even start with that I'd really appreciate it.
> 
> Also any tips on a good first truck/plow? I'm thinking that I need at least a 3/4 ton or 1 ton, although we do already have a 1/2 ton F-150. In our area I've noticed that there are a lot of Ford Excursions that are nice, leather seats, etc. 4x4, with under 150,000 miles for around $4000-$5000. That's with the 6.8L gas motor. I'd personally like the 7.3L diesel, as that's a great motor and I'm a diesel fan...but not sure if it's really worth the premium I'd pay for it. Any thoughts on the Ford Excursions? I'm just as happy with an F-250 or F-350 (yeah I'm a Ford guy...but I'm open to Chevy, not Dodge though) but what I've found is that they are more expensive, and normally more banged up. People buy trucks for work, whereas SUVs are often the family vehicle. And other than softer front suspension for a better ride, an Excursion is the same thing as an F-250. And I could put the extra seats to good use...but I think the pickup bed in a truck would also be handy so either way.
> 
> I know that I've already triggered a bunch of opinions in asking about what kind of truck to buy...so maybe don't worry about the brand advice so much as what really matters? I'm leaning towards Ford simply because I think they're a good brand for their trucks, and around here they are cheaper than Chevy. And since I know more about them I figure I'd be just as well off with one.
> '
> Any tips on what to look for in a plow? I'm thinking maybe an 8-9' plow...brand advice is all over the place I know but I'd still be open to advice on it.
> 
> I can probably figure out the equipment related stuff myself, what I really need help with is the business itself. Ideally I'd have maybe $8000-10,000 into my truck/plow setup, so I'd have that much in upfront, and then insurance, gas, repairs, etc. are all going to be major expenses during the winter season. So if I'm lucky I'm going to have spent, say $15000 by the end of the season? Does that sound about right, or am I making it easier on myself than it is? So ideally I'd really like to pay that off during the first season, because I'd really be needing the money back. That will be literally almost all of my money, or all of it really, so although I do have Grandparents and my parents who would likely be happy to loan me money to get started, I'd like to avoid that if at all possible...and if I did borrow money I'd have to be really sure that I'd be able to pay it off quickly. How much is a realistic figure on the amount of money I could make on my first season?
> 
> I'm not afraid of hard work, I know what it is to go for a long time without sleep, and believe me, it's NOT fun. But overall it'd be worth it to me. And of course I'll have school. A big plus as far as what accounts I could responsibly take on is that I'm home schooled. My teacher (my mom  ) is very nice about letting me flex school around other things so long as I actually do it. ;-) So during a storm I can be out any time of day or night working when necessary.
> 
> As far as backup plow trucks go...I'd have to talk to some people to work something out, but I have quite a few friends in the business, or with a plow truck, so I would imagine I could work out a deal with them where we cover each other, or something of that type.
> 
> So I'm sure I'm forgetting some details, but I just want to know from people who have experience in this, whether going into the business would be a realistic thing to do, and whether I could actually get accounts enough to pay off my insurance and equipment costs.
> 
> I live in SW Michigan. There are a lot of plow guys around here, but most of them are uninsured unreliable ******** who have no idea what they're doing. If I could pick up enough accounts to get by for the first couple of years while creating a good name for myself, that could go a long ways. I have a 19 yr old friend who is going into plowing this year and he has about half a dozen commercial accounts already and about the same number of driveways. So obviously it's possible for a young person to pick up accounts, but I'm even younger so who knows.
> 
> As far as experience goes...I don't have much experience plowing. I have done snow blowing (about 15 driveways around the neighborhood) for two years, this is my third, so I mean I know a little but that is nothing like plowing. I don't have insurance, pay taxes, nor do I have a contract with even one of those customers. So definitely not professional, but whatever. It's about all a 15 yr old can do. You can do a lot more once you turn 16, and even more once you're 18. But it's difficult and I haven't gotten too serious about it as I really haven't had to. But college is coming up and I have to pay for owning a vehicle, and all the costs that come with that, etc. so I need to either start working for somebody or get serious about business if I want to make any money. Maybe working for somebody is the best way to go at this age, far less risk and work etc. but I'm the type who likes to be the big guy, not the employee, so if at all possible I want to do it on my own. Like I said, I'm not afraid of hard work. I'm also mechanically "inclined" so I'll be doing almost all of (well, hopefully all of) my repairs, and obviously maintenance. I've got friends who have heated barns, tools, and lifts, so I'm lucky in that sense. And I have friends who would help me get things fixed if I were in a jam, so that does definitely help me with my expenses.
> 
> So yeah...thanks in advance for any help!!
> 
> Shepard


 One more thing that I meant to mention...(not that you'll believe me...)

I'm pretty competent when it comes to equipment operation. I've always been told that I'm abnormally natural at operating equipment, and I've been operating all kinds of stuff ever since I was strong enough to move the controls, and tall enough to reach them. ;-) So obviously time will make me better at plowing, but I don't think it will take me long to get into the rhythm of plowing. Not saying mistakes don't happen, but that's what insurance is for, right?  But I'll be pretty darned mad at myself if something happens, because you all know what that does to insurance premiums, ESPECIALLY at this young of an age.


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## thelettuceman

You seem to have your head screwed on straight for being 15 years old. You are correct about the insurance also. Do not be discouraged by what I am about to post. You should stick with the snow blower for a few more years. Sometimes le$$ is more $$$. You will be putting out a lot more money but you won't make it back because of insurance.
I would ride shotgun with the 19 year old buddy. Take your snow blower with you. You can get to the snow that his plow can't.

Good luck to you / Rick


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## MK97

thelettuceman;1895023 said:


> You seem to have your head screwed on straight for being 15 years old. You are correct about the insurance also. Do not be discouraged by what I am about to post. You should stick with the snow blower for a few more years. Sometimes le$$ is more $$$. You will be putting out a lot more money but you won't make it back because of insurance.
> I would ride shotgun with the 19 year old buddy. Take your snow blower with you. You can get to the snow that his plow can't.
> 
> Good luck to you / Rick


Agree with lettuceman.

Also most states, you have to be 18 to legally have a business and insurance for said business. Ride with your buddy, and get some seat time the next few years with him.

Don't take this the wrong way, no business in their right mind will hire a kid to keep their lots open. It's just too much risk compared to an adult run business. Get some plow experience next 2/3 years and you will be able to offset some of that youth with experience to help put a business at ease of hiring you.


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## Shepard at FPC

Thanks for the replies guys. I think you're probably right. You are telling me that it is not worth it for the same reasons I've been concerned, getting accounts at this age and getting insurance at this age are both very difficult and expensive things to do, probably making the business not worth it for now. I already have a good snow blower and John Deere 318 I'm fixing up that has a 46" snow blower (actually right now I have a John Deere 214 with a 36" snow blower but I only am keeping it temporarily until I have the 318 working) so between those two, maybe I should just stick to somewhat local driveways, save up some money (don't know if I mentioned that I also do mowing, leaves etc. during the non winter months) and then go into real snow removal once I'm 18. I sure would like to get started sooner than that, but it may be a bunch of money and work down the drain, where I could be getting ahead for a good start a couple of years later. 

Keep the thoughts coming, if I can make it work I still do want to go into plowing next year, but not badly enough that I'm going to go off and make an unwise business maneuver in a mad attempt to succeed, when I could just keep it low key until I'm able to actually succeed. I probably just need to talk to some insurance companies, get some numbers I can run and figure out what my costs are going to be, and then maybe find out from some other young (under 18) people if they're having any luck getting accounts...and if the numbers work out reasonably than I'll maybe give it a shot...but I'd say it's kind of an unlikely thing to have work out, based on my own common sense and what you've said so far.

Thanks!


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## Shepard at FPC

The other reason I was into the idea of getting started right away (well, next winter I mean) was because I would kind of like to get a good name, and a LOT of accounts, and then buy more trucks and plows and hire people. But I think that takes more time than I'm going to be able to put in until I'm through with school (college, etc.) and it'd be a little abnormal to have that going for me by the time I'm 20 while still doing school. It'd be NICE to be in college while my guys are out working, so I'm making money to pay for college without even working aside from managing the business...but I think that just isn't realistic at this point. You can only expand so quickly, and being this age makes it almost impossible to even get started on your own, let alone start hiring people.


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## MK97

Again double check to make sure you can even operate as a business under 18. It's something you have know, and not your customer. If a commercial account mistakenly hires someone too young and there's a slip and fall. It will all be on your parents, since you're a minor. 

If I were you, I'd bust ass to get as many driveways as you can, do them well and when you're old enough flip them over to plowing accounts. You'll have a stronger customer base than a lot of us who started out. Then do some sub work to get introduced to commercial work when you're old enough.


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## MK97

Fordboy1999;1895138 said:


> The other reason I was into the idea of getting started right away (well, next winter I mean) was because I would kind of like to get a good name, and a LOT of accounts, and then buy more trucks and plows and hire people. But I think that takes more time than I'm going to be able to put in until I'm through with school (college, etc.) and it'd be a little abnormal to have that going for me by the time I'm 20 while still doing school. It'd be NICE to be in college while my guys are out working, so I'm making money to pay for college without even working aside from managing the business...but I think that just isn't realistic at this point. You can only expand so quickly, and being this age makes it almost impossible to even get started on your own, let alone start hiring people.


You're WAY jumping the gun on that. You have a 1% chance of the plan getting close to ever happening. Reason I say that is a lot of who are far more experienced have issues trying to find one decent worker let alone a whole crew. Then you will have guys who wont show up and leave you high and dry. You cannot even entertain the idea of a crew unless you're there to babysit them in case they bail on you.


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## Boyerlandscape

Hey man, welcome aboard! You sound like you got the right idea, and don't let your age hold you back. I know a few outfits that were started young. My advice as far as that goes is save save and buy your own equipment. I remember seeing kids have their parents buying them shiny new iron for their "business" and when they finally were 18 and making $ was the new goal, they struggled or failed all together. Get something reliable, but you don't need a 2015 whatever.

My advice as far as getting into the industry:
Right now, and I mean before the next storm. Call up a local Landscaping company and get a job shoveling. Quite frankly it sucks, it's cold, and you'll be beat by the end of it. Through this however, you'll gain experience (even the biggest accounts have sidewalks) and you'll have started from the bottom. Work hard, and ask questions. Listen to everyone, the owner and the guys out their shoveling with you. Offer to help fix things post storm, bum around the shop. Save save save , at 15 the $ you'll make shoveling snow at 3 am is great for your age.

Now next year when you get your license and a truck, rather then having to find work, you can sub for the same company...or maybe a different one you've met from being out in the field. It's all networking. Subbing is great for you because you can learn and have fun , all while making money. Insurance may or may not even be taken care if by your employer (prepare for lots if replies disputing this..it's all what your agreement is.) from here, you can learn how long stuff takes, how much to price, etc and maybe pickup some driveways on the side. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Don't let anyone hold you back, listen to everyone, and most of all just get out there. Most everyone started like you, and most if not all are willing to pass that on, especially to someone at your age who could be a employee/sub for years to come. Good luck!


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## snowplower1

You definitely have some great ideas for being 15 and seems like you'd do alright for yourself plowing and running the business but as other said, you should try talking to an insurance agent and just see (whats it gonna hurt) and look up your state how old you need to be to own a business. 
You still have a few options:
Buy a real good snow blower that will make for fast production 
you could buy an atv with a plow and plow just driveways, it would be cold but i think youd still make good money


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## Dogplow Dodge

Shep,

You write very well for a young-in.... Your parents should be very proud of you at such a young age, to be as educated as you are, and eager to start your adventure into owning your own business. I wish that I had your spunk and drive at your age, vs how I went about it. I spent a couple decades working for others until I couldn't stand it any longer, and finally got off my arse and went to work for myself. Love ever difficult minute of it.... and wouldn't trade it for anything.

Best advice is already being touched upon. Everyone so far is dead on, in the sense that you should "slowly" go about this, and don't let anyone stand in the way of your ambitions. Start off working for another snow / landscape contractor, and work your way up. Don't be so generous as to tell them from the start that you're looking to start your own gig, as you might scare them off a bit. Keep that to yourself for a while, keep your eyes and ears open, and let that sponge between your ears do it's thing. 

Keep logs, or journals of what you do, and how long it takes. Review those logs and see what makes things more efficient, or not. Working for someone else, you're going to gain that experience, and will be able to utilize it for your own benefit, while being paid to learn... and bust your butt as well, I'm sure.

Save your pennies, and when you get a little older, pick up a nice 3/4 ton CLEAN truck that hasn't been previously used for snow plowing. You can pick up a used plow, or buy new, depending on how much money you've saved over the years. Personally, I'm a keep it simple type of guy, so I'd go with an old Isarmatic straight bladed western like I have on my ride. It's easy to fix, and thousands upon thousands have been made, and are around to buy. Parts are available and, again, easy to maintain. Buy or make a set of wings for it, and it's a great/ reliable / efficient piece.

Read through the hundreds, if not thousands of threads here. There are decades of experience in this place (not me, by any means), and their advice is invaluable. You can gain significant knowledge by simply sticking around here and reading about the trials of others and how they went about dealing with it. Nothing better than learning from others mistakes.

And...


Don't buy a western plow, that's mated to a meyer frame, and welded full of patches and mixed up parts. You might think you're being environmentally conscious by saving parts from the scrap yard, but the reality is that choice will buy you nothing but heartaches, and ridicule by your peers......


Looking forwards to reading about your new venture in the upcoming years.


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## Shepard at FPC

MK97;1895142 said:


> Again double check to make sure you can even operate as a business under 18. It's something you have know, and not your customer. If a commercial account mistakenly hires someone too young and there's a slip and fall. It will all be on your parents, since you're a minor.
> 
> If I were you, I'd bust ass to get as many driveways as you can, do them well and when you're old enough flip them over to plowing accounts. You'll have a stronger customer base than a lot of us who started out. Then do some sub work to get introduced to commercial work when you're old enough.


 Thanks, that sounds like sound advice. I'll try to get through to some insurance companies to find out what the age requirements are for my state (Michigan) to see whether it's even possible for me to do plowing. Of course, even for snow blowing it'd be WISE to have insurance, because guess what, if I damage something (shoot a rock through the window, etc.) or anything else were to happen, and the people decide to sue me...well...that sucks for me, but being under 18 if that went through to my parents...BAD thing to have happen. So I guess I just need to look into that and see what my options are.

That also sounds like good advice on getting as many driveways as I can currently handle before I have a truck with a plow. That way I can be making money, gaining some level of experience, and having accounts that I'll be able to keep when I get a plow. And of course when I buy a plow I'd be working hard to get as many good accounts as possible, but it's always good to already have some clients to fall back on if I find it more difficult getting accounts than I originally anticipated. And if I got enough snow blowing accounts, I could at least try to be making enough not to LOOSE anything when I flip them over to plowing.

Thanks!


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## Shepard at FPC

MK97;1895144 said:


> You're WAY jumping the gun on that. You have a 1% chance of the plan getting close to ever happening. Reason I say that is a lot of who are far more experienced have issues trying to find one decent worker let alone a whole crew. Then you will have guys who wont show up and leave you high and dry. You cannot even entertain the idea of a crew unless you're there to babysit them in case they bail on you.


Yeah, you're right. I am getting a bit ahead of myself.  As far as my life plan pertaining to jobs, if I were to go full time into snow removal/landscaping it'd have to be eventually as owner while I have guys working for me, because I'm not about to go working myself to death until I'm too old to do it anymore, and come out of it with hardly any money. It's one thing if I have to work super super hard for the first 10 years or so, but it would have to come around eventually for me to stay in the business. If I end up having a different job I do think I'll stay in snow plowing on the side though. But anyways, you're right that the chance of getting that going by my early twenties is pretty slim. ;-)


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## Shepard at FPC

Boyerlandscape;1895156 said:


> Hey man, welcome aboard! You sound like you got the right idea, and don't let your age hold you back. I know a few outfits that were started young. My advice as far as that goes is save save and buy your own equipment. I remember seeing kids have their parents buying them shiny new iron for their "business" and when they finally were 18 and making $ was the new goal, they struggled or failed all together. Get something reliable, but you don't need a 2015 whatever.
> 
> My advice as far as getting into the industry:
> Right now, and I mean before the next storm. Call up a local Landscaping company and get a job shoveling. Quite frankly it sucks, it's cold, and you'll be beat by the end of it. Through this however, you'll gain experience (even the biggest accounts have sidewalks) and you'll have started from the bottom. Work hard, and ask questions. Listen to everyone, the owner and the guys out their shoveling with you. Offer to help fix things post storm, bum around the shop. Save save save , at 15 the $ you'll make shoveling snow at 3 am is great for your age.
> 
> Now next year when you get your license and a truck, rather then having to find work, you can sub for the same company...or maybe a different one you've met from being out in the field. It's all networking. Subbing is great for you because you can learn and have fun , all while making money. Insurance may or may not even be taken care if by your employer (prepare for lots if replies disputing this..it's all what your agreement is.) from here, you can learn how long stuff takes, how much to price, etc and maybe pickup some driveways on the side. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Don't let anyone hold you back, listen to everyone, and most of all just get out there. Most everyone started like you, and most if not all are willing to pass that on, especially to someone at your age who could be a employee/sub for years to come. Good luck!


Definitely agree on not buying a 2015 vehicle.  First off, my parents would never buy me a new vehicle. They probably wouldn't even buy me 20 year old vehicle.  They are supportive but if I want to go into business I'm going to have to figure out how to do it myself, they aren't about to do it for me. I was thinking of buying a truck between years 2000-2008. Eventually I'd like to have a diesel...what I'd really like is a 2006-early 2007 Duramax (Chevy Silverado 2500 4 door short bed) truck but I'm thinking I'm more likely to get a 7.3 diesel in one of the 1998-early 2003 trucks. Ideally a 2000 or newer...newer in that case is probably better, and 2000 is probably the best year of the 7.3 trucks. As stated in the original post, I could get a Ford Excursion sometime this week with around 140,000 miles, 4x4, heated leather seats and all the other options, with the 6.8 v10 gas engine, for around $4500, maybe less. That's the same thing as an F-250 after you beef up the suspension a tad, which I'd do anyways. The same thing in an F-250, like the same condition and options, would cost at least $6500 I'd say, so that's why I'm thinking that I may look into getting an Excursion. Either way, you can see what price range I'm looking at. If I found a nice pickup truck or SUV that had the 7.3 liter diesel in it, with somewhat low mileage, I'd probably pay $8000 for it and then I'd hang on to it for a while. But right now I'm thinking I'd start off with something cheaper like an Excursion, and than later on maybe upgrade to a 2006 Duramax or something. At that point the Excursion REALLY wouldn't be worth much, so I'd probably just keep it as a passenger vehicle and a backup truck, unless I decided it wasn't worth keeping. Just depends on it's condition at that point. But anyways, if I got a good $4500 truck, I could put in $3500 for a plow and have myself a pretty good $8000 plow setup, not bad if you ask me. But by no means am I looking to buy a 2015 or the likes. 

I think you are giving good advice on getting involved working for a local company, first shoveling, than maybe plowing for them for the two years after that, for experience and some extra money. I'm not sure if that's how I want to do it, but it's still good advice. I might try to get some experience in with my friends in the business, while still doing my own side gig, but I don't think I really want to get plugged in with another company I'm not friends with already. Maybe I'm wrong, but when it comes to going out on your own, I doubt that whatever business or individual I'm contracting with is really going to care who I've worked for before. Maybe when it comes to working for another plowing company, but for going out on your own...I doubt it. And I could honestly tell them that I had been doing snow removal for several years with smaller equipment, and if I rode with my friends sometimes I could say I'd worked with others in the plowing service before also. I just don't think I need to (or want to) go about it by getting a job with a company. I think that is definitely a way (a good way) to go about it, I just don't think that's the path I want to choose.

Again, I think that as far as being as successful as possible working for different plow companies goes, you are giving great advice, I just don't think that's where I'm heading with this right now. Thanks!!

Shep


----------



## MK97

Fordboy1999;1895426 said:


> Thanks, that sounds like sound advice. I'll try to get through to some insurance companies to find out what the age requirements are for my state (Michigan) to see whether it's even possible for me to do plowing. Of course, even for snow blowing it'd be WISE to have insurance, because guess what, if I damage something (shoot a rock through the window, etc.) or anything else were to happen, and the people decide to sue me...well...that sucks for me, but being under 18 if that went through to my parents...BAD thing to have happen. So I guess I just need to look into that and see what my options are.
> 
> That also sounds like good advice on getting as many driveways as I can currently handle before I have a truck with a plow. That way I can be making money, gaining some level of experience, and having accounts that I'll be able to keep when I get a plow. And of course when I buy a plow I'd be working hard to get as many good accounts as possible, but it's always good to already have some clients to fall back on if I find it more difficult getting accounts than I originally anticipated. And if I got enough snow blowing accounts, I could at least try to be making enough not to LOOSE anything when I flip them over to plowing.
> 
> Thanks!


Definitely call some insurance providers and see what they say. If they can cover snow blowing (I would assume they would), it's a must have. It sucks having to pay insurance for even a snow blower, but all you need is something to happen once to make it worth the expense. You do have the advantage of being a kid so you get some more flexability. A broken window or chipped paint on a car won't be the end of the world. However in our sue happy world hitting something/someone in a plow truck, they will likely want a big payday like they see in the commercials.

Don't look at driveways as a temporary account until you can get a plow truck rolling. It might just be your niche. A lot of guys here make a good living only doing residential and no commercial. I'm the opposite and only do commercial, but that's because I'm not a people person and having 100 bosses for 100 accounts isn't appealing to me. :laughing:



Fordboy1999;1895428 said:


> Yeah, you're right. I am getting a bit ahead of myself.  As far as my life plan pertaining to jobs, if I were to go full time into snow removal/landscaping it'd have to be eventually as owner while I have guys working for me, because I'm not about to go working myself to death until I'm too old to do it anymore, and come out of it with hardly any money. It's one thing if I have to work super super hard for the first 10 years or so, but it would have to come around eventually for me to stay in the business. If I end up having a different job I do think I'll stay in snow plowing on the side though. But anyways, you're right that the chance of getting that going by my early twenties is pretty slim. ;-)


Every business should want to have employees, it's part of growing. However most businesses fail in the first 2-3 years. So focus on getting a strong customer base you can handle on your own. As college gets closer, see if your buddy who plows would take on your accounts as a sub. Or try to find a good landscape/snow company, get to know the owner and sub out to them. I would feel more comfortable subbing out my work to an established business and not rely on 1-2 employees if I was living far away. Plus it could wind up costing less, employees are expensive.


----------



## Shepard at FPC

Dogplow Dodge;1895181 said:


> Shep,
> 
> You write very well for a young-in.... Your parents should be very proud of you at such a young age, to be as educated as you are, and eager to start your adventure into owning your own business. I wish that I had your spunk and drive at your age, vs how I went about it. I spent a couple decades working for others until I couldn't stand it any longer, and finally got off my arse and went to work for myself. Love ever difficult minute of it.... and wouldn't trade it for anything.
> 
> Best advice is already being touched upon. Everyone so far is dead on, in the sense that you should "slowly" go about this, and don't let anyone stand in the way of your ambitions. Start off working for another snow / landscape contractor, and work your way up. Don't be so generous as to tell them from the start that you're looking to start your own gig, as you might scare them off a bit. Keep that to yourself for a while, keep your eyes and ears open, and let that sponge between your ears do it's thing.
> 
> Keep logs, or journals of what you do, and how long it takes. Review those logs and see what makes things more efficient, or not. Working for someone else, you're going to gain that experience, and will be able to utilize it for your own benefit, while being paid to learn... and bust your butt as well, I'm sure.
> 
> Save your pennies, and when you get a little older, pick up a nice 3/4 ton CLEAN truck that hasn't been previously used for snow plowing. You can pick up a used plow, or buy new, depending on how much money you've saved over the years. Personally, I'm a keep it simple type of guy, so I'd go with an old Isarmatic straight bladed western like I have on my ride. It's easy to fix, and thousands upon thousands have been made, and are around to buy. Parts are available and, again, easy to maintain. Buy or make a set of wings for it, and it's a great/ reliable / efficient piece.
> 
> Read through the hundreds, if not thousands of threads here. There are decades of experience in this place (not me, by any means), and their advice is invaluable. You can gain significant knowledge by simply sticking around here and reading about the trials of others and how they went about dealing with it. Nothing better than learning from others mistakes.
> 
> And...
> 
> Don't buy a western plow, that's mated to a meyer frame, and welded full of patches and mixed up parts. You might think you're being environmentally conscious by saving parts from the scrap yard, but the reality is that choice will buy you nothing but heartaches, and ridicule by your peers......
> 
> Looking forwards to reading about your new venture in the upcoming years.


Thanks for the advice! Agree about buying a clean truck that hasn't been used for plowing in the past. Plowing beats up on a truck pretty hard.

I'm not sure whether I'll be a used or new plow...I'll probably look for a good deal on a used one, maybe the spring/summer before the winter I plan on plowing. If I don't find anything than maybe I'll buy something new...I've noticed that with plows, unlike cars, their value doesn't drop as much just because they're used. Maybe I'm wrong about that, just what it seems to be.  So maybe new isn't such a bad idea, we'll see. I would LIKE a fancy V Blade or whatever, or something along the lines of a Western Wideout, but I'm thinking that I'll start out with a good straight blade, and than eventually I may decide to upgrade both truck and plow, keeping the old truck and plow as backup or for an employee to use maybe. Plows can be very expensive, so I'll probably start somewhat simple.

Thanks very much for the reply, you offer good advice that I will be sure to use.

Shepard


----------



## MK97

Fordboy1999;1895445 said:


> Definitely agree on not buying a 2015 vehicle.  First off, my parents would never buy me a new vehicle. They probably wouldn't even buy me 20 year old vehicle.  They are supportive but if I want to go into business I'm going to have to figure out how to do it myself, they aren't about to do it for me. I was thinking of buying a truck between years 2000-2008. Eventually I'd like to have a diesel...what I'd really like is a 2006-early 2007 Duramax (Chevy Silverado 2500 4 door short bed) truck but I'm thinking I'm more likely to get a 7.3 diesel in one of the 1998-early 2003 trucks. Ideally a 2000 or newer...newer in that case is probably better, and 2000 is probably the best year of the 7.3 trucks. As stated in the original post, I could get a Ford Excursion sometime this week with around 140,000 miles, 4x4, heated leather seats and all the other options, with the 6.8 v10 gas engine, for around $4500, maybe less. That's the same thing as an F-250 after you beef up the suspension a tad, which I'd do anyways. The same thing in an F-250, like the same condition and options, would cost at least $6500 I'd say, so that's why I'm thinking that I may look into getting an Excursion. Either way, you can see what price range I'm looking at. If I found a nice pickup truck or SUV that had the 7.3 liter diesel in it, with somewhat low mileage, I'd probably pay $8000 for it and then I'd hang on to it for a while. But right now I'm thinking I'd start off with something cheaper like an Excursion, and than later on maybe upgrade to a 2006 Duramax or something. At that point the Excursion REALLY wouldn't be worth much, so I'd probably just keep it as a passenger vehicle and a backup truck, unless I decided it wasn't worth keeping. Just depends on it's condition at that point. But anyways, if I got a good $4500 truck, I could put in $3500 for a plow and have myself a pretty good $8000 plow setup, not bad if you ask me. But by no means am I looking to buy a 2015 or the likes.
> 
> I think you are giving good advice on getting involved working for a local company, first shoveling, than maybe plowing for them for the two years after that, for experience and some extra money. I'm not sure if that's how I want to do it, but it's still good advice. I might try to get some experience in with my friends in the business, while still doing my own side gig, but I don't think I really want to get plugged in with another company I'm not friends with already. Maybe I'm wrong, but when it comes to going out on your own, I doubt that whatever business or individual I'm contracting with is really going to care who I've worked for before. Maybe when it comes to working for another plowing company, but for going out on your own...I doubt it. And I could honestly tell them that I had been doing snow removal for several years with smaller equipment, and if I rode with my friends sometimes I could say I'd worked with others in the plowing service before also. I just don't think I need to (or want to) go about it by getting a job with a company. I think that is definitely a way (a good way) to go about it, I just don't think that's the path I want to choose.
> 
> Again, I think that as far as being as successful as possible working for different plow companies goes, you are giving great advice, I just don't think that's where I'm heading with this right now. Thanks!!
> 
> Shep


I wouldn't jump into an older V10 truck. They can be solid, BUT those years had issues and could become a headache. Had to help a friend swap V10's in his 2001 F250 a few years back. Can't remember the exact issue but it was somewhat common.

Personally I would find a nice 95-97 F250 (5.8L or the 460). There's a reason why it is the most common truck used for plowing. It's reliable, cheap to fix, pretty easy to work on, and way better in small areas. Especially doing driveways, a smaller truck can clear faster. I have a 96 and a 04 F250, I have certain accounts I wouldn't even attempt with the 04.

I put probably $1500 into the 96, but at 235,000 miles it's a beast and has yet to let me down. Planned on selling it many times for a lower mileage/ better condition one but can''t bring myself to it. I know all the issues with this one and have fixed just about every one. So I would be going backwards starting on a new potential headache.


----------



## Shepard at FPC

snowplower1;1895165 said:


> You definitely have some great ideas for being 15 and seems like you'd do alright for yourself plowing and running the business but as other said, you should try talking to an insurance agent and just see (whats it gonna hurt) and look up your state how old you need to be to own a business.
> You still have a few options:
> Buy a real good snow blower that will make for fast production
> you could buy an atv with a plow and plow just driveways, it would be cold but i think youd still make good money


Sounds like a good idea...I haven't had great experiences with ATV driven snow plowing, but I have a good walk behind snow blower and a John Deere 318 (garden tractor) that has a 46" snow blower, and a 54" plow. That things a snow removal beast, so if I had a good system of moving it around from one driveway to the next it'd do a nice job.


----------



## Shepard at FPC

MK97;1895457 said:


> I wouldn't jump into an older V10 truck. They can be solid, BUT those years had issues and could become a headache. Had to help a friend swap V10's in his 2001 F250 a few years back. Can't remember the exact issue but it was somewhat common.
> 
> Personally I would find a nice 95-97 F250 (5.8L or the 460). There's a reason why it is the most common truck used for plowing. It's reliable, cheap to fix, pretty easy to work on, and way better in small areas. Especially doing driveways, a smaller truck can clear faster. I have a 96 and a 04 F250, I have certain accounts I wouldn't even attempt with the 04.
> 
> I put probably $1500 into the 96, but at 235,000 miles it's a beast and has yet to let me down. Planned on selling it many times for a lower mileage/ better condition one but can''t bring myself to it. I know all the issues with this one and have fixed just about every one. So I would be going backwards starting on a new potential headache.


I'll keep that in mind. I've heard varying things on those trucks/engines. I've seen one or two 7.3 diesel Excursions/Pickup Trucks that look decent for around $6000-$7000, so if I could find an especially good one for that price, somebody selling it who doesn't realize that diesel is worth more than gas or something, than maybe I'll jump on that. I know diesels have their ups and downs, but I have already decided I want one and I know the 7.3 has a good reputation. I don't like the idea of a 1995-97 F-250 as my daily driver...the first reason that comes to mind is gas mileage, but then I realize that it's probably not much or any worse than a v10!  So I'll keep that in mind, maybe it'd be worth buying one of those and a little Honda Civic or something for running around in.


----------



## Shepard at FPC

MK97;1895446 said:


> Definitely call some insurance providers and see what they say. If they can cover snow blowing (I would assume they would), it's a must have. It sucks having to pay insurance for even a snow blower, but all you need is something to happen once to make it worth the expense. You do have the advantage of being a kid so you get some more flexability. A broken window or chipped paint on a car won't be the end of the world. However in our sue happy world hitting something/someone in a plow truck, they will likely want a big payday like they see in the commercials.
> 
> Don't look at driveways as a temporary account until you can get a plow truck rolling. It might just be your niche. A lot of guys here make a good living only doing residential and no commercial. I'm the opposite and only do commercial, but that's because I'm not a people person and having 100 bosses for 100 accounts isn't appealing to me. :laughing:
> 
> Every business should want to have employees, it's part of growing. However most businesses fail in the first 2-3 years. So focus on getting a strong customer base you can handle on your own. As college gets closer, see if your buddy who plows would take on your accounts as a sub. Or try to find a good landscape/snow company, get to know the owner and sub out to them. I would feel more comfortable subbing out my work to an established business and not rely on 1-2 employees if I was living far away. Plus it could wind up costing less, employees are expensive.


I'll keep that all in mind, much appreciated, thanks!

Shepard


----------



## MK97

Fordboy1999;1895463 said:


> I'll keep that in mind. I've heard varying things on those trucks/engines. I've seen one or two 7.3 diesel Excursions/Pickup Trucks that look decent for around $6000-$7000, so if I could find an especially good one for that price, somebody selling it who doesn't realize that diesel is worth more than gas or something, than maybe I'll jump on that. I know diesels have their ups and downs, but I have already decided I want one and I know the 7.3 has a good reputation. I don't like the idea of a 1995-97 F-250 as my daily driver...the first reason that comes to mind is gas mileage, but then I realize that it's probably not much or any worse than a v10!  So I'll keep that in mind, maybe it'd be worth buying one of those and a little Honda Civic or something for running around in.


A diesel for starting out is a horrible idea. Repairs are high and if you found a 7.3 for less than $10k, it likely has issues. I've had a 7.3...they aren't that amazing and have a lot of quirks people seem to forget about. Want to change a CPS under your truck in sub zero temps in the middle of the night? I have, it isn't fun. Injectors are expensive, turbos are expensive, glow plugs need to be in good shape, and they can be temperamental in the cold unless you have a good block heater and access to an outlet. Oh and can't forget the fun when your diesel gels up too.

I prefer diesels bar none, replaced my 7.3 with a 6.0 and wanting to get a new 6.7. but starting out, a smaller gas truck will save you tons of headaches and money on repair bills.


----------



## Shepard at FPC

MK97;1895477 said:


> A diesel for starting out is a horrible idea. Repairs are high and if you found a 7.3 for less than $10k, it likely has issues. I've had a 7.3...they aren't that amazing and have a lot of quirks people seem to forget about. Want to change a CPS under your truck in sub zero temps in the middle of the night? I have, it isn't fun. Injectors are expensive, turbos are expensive, glow plugs need to be in good shape, and they can be temperamental in the cold unless you have a good block heater and access to an outlet. Oh and can't forget the fun when your diesel gels up too.
> 
> I prefer diesels bar none, replaced my 7.3 with a 6.0 and wanting to get a new 6.7. but starting out, a smaller gas truck will save you tons of headaches and money on repair bills.


Hmm...you are probably right about diesels maybe not being the best way to go...I just kind of like them. They last a lot longer, have lots of torque, get better mileage, are much easier to do mods to (not that I plan on doing many mods, unless it's for gas mileage) etc. But I have been told by more people than just you that they aren't good as a starter truck, so maybe I should avoid them for starters? Why does the 7.3 have such a good reputation if they're actually nothing but trouble? You probably do have a point about not being able to get a good one for under 10k though. Maybe I should start with gas until I can justify a good Duramax in the $15,000-$20,000 range that I could have around for a very long time.

How bad is the 6.8l V10? The 5.4l is underpowered for these bigger trucks...and other than the older trucks and the diesels...are there really any better options out there? Maybe I'm wrong...but I just don't see a 1995-97 truck being any more reliable than a newer 6.8l. Just because some people have had problems with them doesn't mean I'm for sure going to. I'm sure people have had problems with the older gassers too, right? For the power and price point, as long as they aren't bad engines, that just seems like my best bet. But I don't want something that is going to break every time I try to use it either, so if the older 95-97 F-250s are better, than I'll get one.


----------



## BUFF

Things aren't adding up, OP was by Shepard At FPC joined (Dec 2013), a few post down Fordboy 1999 (joined Oct 2014)comes in saying thanks for replies with the sig being Shepard. Why would anyone have 2 usernames?
Seems like a troll to me....


----------



## dieselss

Good eye buff.
Fishy indeed


----------



## SnoFarmer

Why would a self proclaimed "Jesus Freak"
be trolling? wwjd.


Shepard, Jesus Freak. Entrepreneur. Equipment Maniac.. 
Fordboy, DIYer, Diesel Truck guy, Sports (football, soccer, etc.), Jesus Follower


----------



## Plowtoy

I think (if this is legit), your biggest issue will be your graduated license. If I'm not mistaken, you can only be out certin hours and going certin places until your a bit older (is it 18 before your free and clear in Michigan?). Anyway, you might check into that prior to commiting yourself with a truck and plow...


----------



## Plowtoy

BUFF;1895568 said:


> Things aren't adding up, OP was by Shepard At FPC joined (Dec 2013), a few post down Fordboy 1999 (joined Oct 2014)comes in saying thanks for replies with the sig being Shepard. Why would anyone have 2 usernames?
> Seems like a troll to me....


Who pays that close of attention to long post's like these??? LOL


----------



## SnoFarmer

and both of them are 15yrs old. hummmmm

confession this Sunday.....


----------



## jimbo64

I would say stay in school, get a job with a contractor as a part time helper or do some snowblowing/shovelling after school. You can't get into this type of business while you are a full time student, but you can make it a part time job and see how you like it. Save your money and look at buying a truck and plow in a few years time, after working a season or two for someone else, if you still enjoy working in the cold and snow at all hours of the day and night.


----------



## dieselss

I'd say stay in school and don't troll


----------



## Shepard at FPC

BUFF;1895568 said:


> Things aren't adding up, OP was by Shepard At FPC joined (Dec 2013), a few post down Fordboy 1999 (joined Oct 2014)comes in saying thanks for replies with the sig being Shepard. Why would anyone have 2 usernames?
> Seems like a troll to me....


Oh wow, that is weird! I'm actually not sure how that happened for sure. I had made and account on here a while back, and then I tried to get on but couldn't remember my password...went through the whole processing to create a new account...and then I realized I could get the site to reset the password...so I got into my old account. My old account was Shepard at FPC and the new one I thought I never went through with was FordBoy1999. I must have accidentally created the new account?? I'll look into it, sorry for the confusion. I literally didn't realize I went through with the new account... *weird*


----------



## Shepard at FPC

Plowtoy;1895584 said:


> I think (if this is legit), your biggest issue will be your graduated license. If I'm not mistaken, you can only be out certin hours and going certin places until your a bit older (is it 18 before your free and clear in Michigan?). Anyway, you might check into that prior to commiting yourself with a truck and plow...


Hmm...I should look into that. If I remember correctly, the only limitations between 16-17 were no more than one non-relative in the vehicle unless an adult over 21 was in the vehicle...but now that you mention it, there may have been a rule against being out between 12am-5am or something like that?? Can't remember, but I guess that is just a little bit important. ;-) But I mean...who's going to get me in trouble for it? LOL


----------



## SnoFarmer

" I literally didn't realize I went through with the new account"
^ yet you posted with both accounts, weird.
farmboy1999 is the new account.....

you can ask mjd to delete one of your accounts for you.

stay in school.......


----------



## Shepard at FPC

SnoFarmer;1895648 said:


> " I literally didn't realize I went through with the new account"
> ^ yet you posted with both accounts, weird.
> 
> you can ask mjd to delete one of your accounts for you.


Yeah...I'm thinking that when I first posted, it was with my Shepard at FPC account because I had just gotten the password and everything. But most forums I'm on, I'm on as Fordboy1999, so I would have naturally just put that username in when logging in, so maybe I accidentally put that in? And they're both under the same password. Working on it...thanks!


----------



## Shepard at FPC

Yup, just checked, and, sure enough...I have two accounts!!! :-( Oops. I'm going to try to get the Fordboy1999 one deleted...since I originally started with Shepard at FPC. Sorry about that! I promise I'm not trolling...really! 

Shepard


----------



## jimbo64

SnoFarmer;1895648 said:


> " I literally didn't realize I went through with the new account"
> ^ yet you posted with both accounts, weird.
> farmboy1999 is the new account.....
> 
> you can ask mjd to delete one of your accounts for you.
> 
> stay in school.......[/QUOT
> 
> I have a funny feeling we are being played.


----------



## BUFF

Plowtoy;1895588 said:


> Who pays that close of attention to long post's like these??? LOL


Just a simple observation........



SnoFarmer;1895591 said:


> and both of them are 15yrs old. hummmmm
> 
> confession this Sunday.....


Aren't you on the hunt for a couple packs of Hot Dogs.....


----------



## Shepard at FPC

Well guys...I don't even know what to do at this point because it appears you don't believe me in that I accidentally ended up with two accounts. I will admit it looks fishy, but I swear I'm telling the truth. But anyways, that aside, thanks for all the replies, appreciate the help. I think you guys have pointed me in the right direction, and I will post more as things progress in my "business venture". Maybe I'll be able to figure it all out and make a post for other young people trying to figure it all out, to simplify it for them.

Shepard


----------



## SnoFarmer

Shepard at FPC;1895664 said:


> Well guys...I don't even know what to do at this point because it appears you don't believe me in that I accidentally ended up with two accounts. I will admit it looks fishy,
> 
> Shepard


then pick one and log out of the other one.
have a Mod/admin delete it.



BUFF;1895657 said:


> Just a simple observation........
> 
> Aren't you on the hunt for a couple packs of Hot Dogs.....


I stocked up at Quicktrip $1 off a pack.

i went to get a dog for lunch but I had to wait for Jesus to get his first


----------



## SnoFarmer

jimbo64;1895656 said:


> [/QUOT
> 
> I have a funny feeling we are being played.


bird seeded.......:waving:


----------



## Shepard at FPC

SnoFarmer;1895671 said:


> then pick one and log out of the other one.
> have a Mod/admin delete it.
> 
> I stocked up at Quicktrip $1 off a pack.
> 
> i went to get a dog for lunch but I had to wait for Jesus to get his first


OK...that's a bit weird.  I am willing to bet anything on the fact that that is NOT Jesus... LOL


----------



## BUFF

SnoFarmer;1895671 said:


> I stocked up at Quicktrip $1 off a pack.


.............


----------



## jimbo64

SnoFarmer;1895671 said:


> then pick one and log out of the other one.
> have a Mod/admin delete it.
> 
> I stocked up at Quicktrip $1 off a pack.
> 
> i went to get a dog for lunch but I had to wait for Jesus to get his first


Is that Shepard aka Fordboy ?


----------



## Shepard at FPC

jimbo64;1895677 said:


> Is that Shepard aka Fordboy ?


Wow, once you guys get something in your head you really can't get it out, can you! And now whoever SnoFarmer is is getting sucked into this...guys, seriously, just take my word for it. I accidentally got two two accounts, and since they both go through to the same email address I didn't realize which was which, I didn't even realize anything had happened until BUFF pointed it out. Just let it go for once and believe me, would you?


----------



## Shepard at FPC

Shepard at FPC;1895679 said:


> Wow, once you guys get something in your head you really can't get it out, can you! And now whoever SnoFarmer is is getting sucked into this...guys, seriously, just take my word for it. I accidentally got two two accounts, and since they both go through to the same email address I didn't realize which was which, I didn't even realize anything had happened until BUFF pointed it out. Just let it go for once and believe me, would you?


Just read through the posts keeping in mind that Fordboy1999 and Shepard at FPC are both me, and it should all make sense. I am still trying to figure out how to delete the Fordboy1999 account. But there shouldn't be any more posts from my Fordboy1999 account, now that I realize what happened.


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## Mike_PS

BUFF;1895568 said:


> Things aren't adding up, OP was by Shepard At FPC joined (Dec 2013), a few post down Fordboy 1999 (joined Oct 2014)comes in saying thanks for replies with the sig being Shepard. Why would anyone have 2 usernames?
> Seems like a troll to me....





Shepard at FPC;1895640 said:


> Oh wow, that is weird! I'm actually not sure how that happened for sure. I had made and account on here a while back, and then I tried to get on but couldn't remember my password...went through the whole processing to create a new account...and then I realized I could get the site to reset the password...so I got into my old account. My old account was Shepard at FPC and the new one I thought I never went through with was FordBoy1999. I must have accidentally created the new account?? I'll look into it, sorry for the confusion. I literally didn't realize I went through with the new account... *weird*


ok, I combined your two accounts and removed the Fordboy user name so this is the user name you will use moving forward.

thanks for bringing to my attention guys :waving:


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## Shepard at FPC

Michael J. Donovan;1895683 said:


> ok, I combined your two accounts and removed the Fordboy user name so this is the user name you will use moving forward.
> 
> thanks for bringing to my attention guys :waving:


Awesome, thanks for doing that! I couldn't figure out how, so glad you could do it without me having to do anything LOL. Sorry for the confusion!!

Shepard


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## SnoFarmer

Shepard at FPC;1895679 said:


> Wow, once you guys get something in your head you really can't get it out, can you! And now whoever SnoFarmer is is getting sucked into this...guys, seriously, just take my word for it. I accidentally got two two accounts, and since they both go through to the same email address I didn't realize which was which, I didn't even realize anything had happened until BUFF pointed it out. Just let it go for once and believe me, would you?


It's settled , but,,,, you cant accidentally post under both names .
You can log in to both separately and post, as that is what you did.

But shouldn't you be in school at these hrs?

Who can you work for?

Start by shoveling walks and or snow blowing,
who will hire you when there are hrs you can't work at your age.
And the ins cost?

The way to drum up business
Solicit your neighbors , cold calls, knocking on doors is the best way to get business.

The mailman will remove anything you put on the mailbox.

And why the fixation on that gas guzzling v10 , what a train wreck.


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## Shepard at FPC

SnoFarmer;1895733 said:


> It's settled , but,,,, you cant accidentally post under both names .
> You can log in to both separately and post, as that is what you did.
> 
> But shouldn't you be in school at these hrs?
> 
> Who can you work for?
> 
> Start by shoveling walks and or snow blowing,
> who will hire you when there are hrs you can't work at your age.
> And the ins cost?
> 
> The way to drum up business
> Solicit your neighbors , cold calls, knocking on doors is the best way to get business.
> 
> The mailman will remove anything you put on the mailbox.
> 
> And why the fixation on that gas guzzling v10 , what a train wreck.


Right. I was logged into the Shepard at FPC account originally. But then it automatically logged me out, and I instinctively put in Fordboy1999 for my username to continue posting. Which is why I started off on Shepard at FPC and then switched to Fordboy1999. I'm actually slightly confused about it too...I feel like I should have been getting notifications when I posted on my own thread from a different account...so I'm not sure how that didn't happen. But it's fixed now I guess.

I am still doing school right now actually. Well...before I started typing this and as soon as I'm finished, that is. Guess I'm not technically doing school while typing this. ;-) Since I'm home schooled I am able to take breaks to do other things...not that my parents want me to...I'm not actually SUPPOSED to do anything like this until AFTER school unless it's urgent...but oh well. I guess as long as I get my school done on time, and do it right, it doesn't REALLY matter when...right? 

Since I'm home schooled...for stuff like snow, there really aren't hours I can't work. Like I said, as long as I get my school work done, my parents allow me to do other things such as snow removal. And it doesn't normally snow straight through the whole winter, so if I get behind in school work one week, or one day even, there's always the next day it's not snowing to use for catching back up. This home schooling thing is very handy actually. Especially considering that on top of all that, I can actually learn more than all the crap they tend to teach in schools these days anyways.

You are correct that the v10 is a gas guzzler...but other than that, it's a powerful, and reliable motor, from what I've heard anyways. Only common issue I know of is puking spark plugs. Which can be fixed...although preferably that wouldn't happen to me. I'm open to something else...but realistically speaking, in a 3/4 ton or bigger truck, and something that's not diesel, what do you suggest I buy?? I admit that 9mpg city and 12 highway is pretty bad, but isn't that pretty normal for a full sized truck? My parents want a Honda Civic anyways so maybe I'll buy one of those and we can split the costs of owning it, and I'll use it for all my run around stuff, saving the truck for times when I need it. The only other gas engine in the Excursions is the 5.4, which might get 11 city and 14 highway IF YOU'RE LUCKY and it will have no power, those things are HEAVY. Maybe I should look into a Chevy? I know their 8.1 liter truck is just as bad or worse than the Triton v10...not saying the v10 isn't a gas hog, but aren't all 3/4 ton and up trucks?? Because if there is one that isn't...I want it, and I think there are quite a few other folks who would also want it! The only alternative in my mind is a diesel...and the expenses on that, between upfront cost and all the other costs (higher priced maintenance, higher priced fuel, etc.) are just as bad!

Shepard


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## Shepard at FPC

I'm sorry if any of that came through as disrespectful. I don't mean to be that way if I am. I greatly respect what you guys do and the help you give. I understand I have written a lot and don't expect you to carefully read and think through every single thing I say, it's just that some things come across to me as ignorant and my response to that is maybe a little too defensive. ;-)


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## linckeil

skimming through this has been pretty funny.... you seem like a good kid. 

i started when i was 16 but thats only because my father had a handful of driveways he would plow and then i took it over. otherwise i don't know who would have hired a 16 year old!!!! i rode with him for years shoveling walkways until i turned 16 and he didnt want to do it anymore. so i learned the ropes all along. 

at 16 i took over behind the wheel of a 1960 cj5 (this was in 1995). a few years later i was up to close to 50 driveways. i dont know how i managed with a 3 speed manual, twin stick transfer case, dual lever plow controls, lousy heat, terrible seats, no defroster, and vacuum powered wipers!!!! i guess i just didnt know any different. jeep was an awesome plowing machine, i couldn't imagine doing my 7 hour route with it today like i did way back when.... 

so anyway - if you want to plow, get experience under your belt. work for someone first and learn. then try to branch out. a lot of people think its easy money - far from it. but if you do it well, you can make a good chunk of change.


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## SnoFarmer

I think at 15 you can justify anything as you do.

Do some homework on trucks and engines and there drawbacks.

Go to the forum boards and read up on what they really think about them and the cost.

As much as I love my diesel I don't want to plow with it
It,s to heavy.

Even with a. 6cyl gasser you will run out go traction long before you run out of power.
Plows new, used cost?
Salt?

Can you fix any of these plows or trucks or will you be taking it to someone?
What will your customers do in the meantime?

What are you going to do in the the summer With this truck to make the payments?


You will need a business of your own, or your parents will,
Ie a LLC or inc 
Lately, insurance give a insurance agent a call, get a quote.

Let reality set in.

We all started someplace but you need to have your hotdogs in a row.


----------



## MK97

Shepard at FPC;1895746 said:


> You are correct that the v10 is a gas guzzler...but other than that, it's a powerful, and reliable motor, from what I've heard anyways. Only common issue I know of is puking spark plugs. Which can be fixed...although preferably that wouldn't happen to me. I'm open to something else...but realistically speaking, in a 3/4 ton or bigger truck, and something that's not diesel, what do you suggest I buy?? I admit that 9mpg city and 12 highway is pretty bad, but isn't that pretty normal for a full sized truck? My parents want a Honda Civic anyways so maybe I'll buy one of those and we can split the costs of owning it, and I'll use it for all my run around stuff, saving the truck for times when I need it. The only other gas engine in the Excursions is the 5.4, which might get 11 city and 14 highway IF YOU'RE LUCKY and it will have no power, those things are HEAVY. Maybe I should look into a Chevy? I know their 8.1 liter truck is just as bad or worse than the Triton v10...not saying the v10 isn't a gas hog, but aren't all 3/4 ton and up trucks?? Because if there is one that isn't...I want it, and I think there are quite a few other folks who would also want it! The only alternative in my mind is a diesel...and the expenses on that, between upfront cost and all the other costs (higher priced maintenance, higher priced fuel, etc.) are just as bad!
> 
> Shepard


Having to helicoil the engine after a plug blowout isn't cheap and easy to screw up. That truck has the turning radius of a city bus and will suck in small areas like driveways. Oh and you damn sure wont be seeing 14 on the highway. Those years in the real world got about 9 city and 12 highway.

This is why I said to go with a 95-97 F250/F350. The 5.8L 351 is decent on fuel and wont kill you on repairs. There's a reason so many companies have large fleets of these trucks. I averaged 10.6MPG with the plow on, and just over 15MPG with it off. Plenty of power and wont kill you at the pump or shop. Also insurance will be less, along with being a better choice in tight areas.

Get the biggest truck you want, but you're going to quickly realize the downfalls in your having to make a 30 point turn to get in and out of a driveway.


----------



## Shepard at FPC

SnoFarmer;1895847 said:


> I think at 15 you can justify anything as you do.
> 
> Do some homework on trucks and engines and there drawbacks.
> 
> Go to the forum boards and read up on what they really think about them and the cost.
> 
> As much as I love my diesel I don't want to plow with it
> It,s to heavy.
> 
> Even with a. 6cyl gasser you will run out go traction long before you run out of power.
> Plows new, used cost?
> Salt?
> 
> Can you fix any of these plows or trucks or will you be taking it to someone?
> What will your customers do in the meantime?
> 
> What are you going to do in the the summer With this truck to make the payments?
> 
> You will need a business of your own, or your parents will,
> Ie a LLC or inc
> Lately, insurance give a insurance agent a call, get a quote.
> 
> Let reality set in.
> 
> We all started someplace but you need to have your hotdogs in a row.


Yeah I've been doing some homework.

I've always been a Ford guy, so I know a lot more about the Fords than I know about other brands. I have kind of gathered (no offense to Dodge fans...) that Dodge trucks aren't great. The Cummins diesel is the best, but the Dodge trucks just fall apart. Then there is Chevy...and I'd say they are probably pretty even with Ford. They've got the 6.0 (Vortec, I think) and an 8.1 (probably a Vortec also?). The 6.0 is a good engine I believe, and the 8.1 is OK but no better than the Triton V10, and maybe worse. As to the Chevy trucks themselves...guess the main difference (actually I guess this is the case with the engines too) is that they're a bit lighter. Probably about equal otherwise though? So I'm kind of thinking that I'll get something like a Chevy 2500 or 3500, or a Ford F-250 or F-350. Or a Ford Excursion, or Chevy 2500 Suburban. What I'm about to say excludes diesels, as I have decided to hold off on a diesel for a little while.

So I think if I get an F-250, F-350, or an Excursion, I'll go with a 6.8l V10. They are powerful, and although the fuel mileage sucks, for the amount of extra power you get its worth the difference from the 5.4. I'll go through what the truck will be used for farther down in this post. But it'll be mostly work related stuff (towing, plowing, etc.) so I'd be better off with the 6.8. And the 6.8 will handle all the work better than the 5.4 (less strain on the motor) so it will last longer doing what I want it to.

I haven't researched the Chevy motors very thoroughly yet, so maybe I'm wrong, but based on what I've gathered, the 6.0 Vortec has enough power for what I need, is reliable, and is enough more fuel efficient than the 8.1 to an extent to which I'd be better off with it. But I may just go for whatever I can get a better deal on.

For non winter usage now. I will probably expand my lawn service a good bit once I have my license, especially since I have a lot of extra time during the summer not having to do school. So it'd be pretty much just a tow vehicle, I'd be towing 1-2 commercial zero turns (currently only have an Exmark 60" diesel, but might pick up another if I expand), a push lawn mower, and of course the trimmers, edgers OK actually just one of each LOL), blowers, gas, etc. So not TOO much weight. I'm trying to figure out what kind of trailer to buy. I was originally thinking an 7x16 ish enclosed trailer what I could store most of my equipment in and also transport it in, and I'm still considering that. But, especially if I didn't have a pickup truck, it'd be nice to have a heavy duty open trailer that I could haul stuff on, like mulch, grass, leaves, etc. So then I was thinking a heavy duty dump trailer would be nice, but those really aren't made for loading and unloading equipment into and they are very expensive, so I'm thinking maybe a 7x16 open trailer, that is heavy duty enough to haul cars even but primarily made for my lawn equipment. ANYWAYS...that was kind of a side track. Basically I think it will be mainly a work truck, although there are plenty of times I may be transporting a number of people. My family consists of 6 people and we are transporting other people quite often, so I may end up using it as more of a family vehicle at times than I anticipated. But I'll probably try to use my parents minivan for stuff like that when possible because it literally gets twice the MPG. 

I have a feeling I'll have a good bit of running around to do, where I DON'T need a truck, so I may try to work out a deal with my parents where we go in together (on upfront price, insurance, maintenance, etc.) on a little old Honda Civic or something that we could both use for running around in. Sure, our minivan gets 24mpg on the highway (averages more like 20), but we could AVERAGE 35mpg minimum in a civic and I know my parents are already wanting one so that may work out nicely.

I plan on doing all maintenance and repairs myself, yes. I'm pretty handy and have a lot of friends who know a lot more than me and who have access to the right tools to fix things, etc. So it's pretty unlikely I ever send any of my vehicles to the shop. Even for welding things and other "custom" repairs, I can get that taken care of myself. And I plan to work out a deal with one or two of the friends where we cover each other's backs if either one of our trucks break down. If I got more serious, I may get a backup truck of my own. Or more likely, I'll want to upgrade to a Duramax or something, and I'll keep whatever truck I originally buy as a backup. Just depends, but either way I'll figure out some way of having backup in case of a breakdown.

Thanks!!

Shepard


----------



## BUFF

There is a kid on here named Austin and his username is Kennedy Landscaping (or something like that). He started off about the same age as you and has built up a pretty good gig from what he's posted. 
Use the search function and start reading.


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## Shepard at FPC

MK97;1895860 said:


> Having to helicoil the engine after a plug blowout isn't cheap and easy to screw up. That truck has the turning radius of a city bus and will suck in small areas like driveways. Oh and you damn sure wont be seeing 14 on the highway. Those years in the real world got about 9 city and 12 highway.
> 
> This is why I said to go with a 95-97 F250/F350. The 5.8L 351 is decent on fuel and wont kill you on repairs. There's a reason so many companies have large fleets of these trucks. I averaged 10.6MPG with the plow on, and just over 15MPG with it off. Plenty of power and wont kill you at the pump or shop. Also insurance will be less, along with being a better choice in tight areas.
> 
> Get the biggest truck you want, but you're going to quickly realize the downfalls in your having to make a 30 point turn to get in and out of a driveway.


About the gas mileage, that's what I said, the v10s get 9 city and 12 highway (if you're somewhat lucky). I was saying that the 5.4 v8s MIGHT get 14mpg on the highway, so not a huge upgrade considering my usage for the truck.

I'm sure you're right about the spark plugs. I have never done one before so don't know anything about how hard it is to fix. I'll just have to hope that I don't have the problem with them...from what I've read, normally if it's got the problem it happens within the first 100k miles, and I doubt I'll get one with under 100k miles. So more than likely if I get a model year with that problem, it will already have been fixed. I'll look into the problem more extensively though, as I'm saying a lot more about it than I actually know. I just know that what I've heard is that it is the only common major problem, and isn't that big of a deal looking at the big picture. If I buy one I'll learn how to prevent the problem, and do whatever needs to be done before it's too late.

As to turning radius, you have a point there. Turning radius does make a really big difference when plowing. I plowed a couple of lots (yeah...it was illegal) with a friends Isuzu dump truck, and BOY did that thing have a good steering radius. You wouldn't expect it, but the wheel base on it actually was pretty short and it could turn so sharp. You could literally make a U-turn on a pretty average sized road. Backing up visibility was bad, but going forwards was really good. I have also plowed with other trucks that are way worse, and it can be a pain I'm sure. I was doing all parking lots, so I don't know as much about the driveway aspect of plowing. But everybody say it matters a lot, and from operating different equipment all over the place, I know it does really matter. And when I think about what I'll actually need a truck for, practically speaking, if I had a Honda Civic for running around, and my parents minivan for transporting people, really all I would need is what you recommended, so I might give that some thought. I think that, if I'm honest, the main reason I'm set on a newer truck is because I like how they come across better. I'd feel better about myself pulling into somebody's driveway or whatever in a big nice truck with heated leather seats, etc. vs. pulling in with an old "beater" truck that nobody really wants to ride in. But practically speaking, which is what matters, if what you say about that truck is true, and I'm sure you wouldn't say it if it wasn't, then that may be a good option. I will certainly look into it.

Shepard


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## Shepard at FPC

BUFF;1895898 said:


> There is a kid on here named Austin and his username is Kennedy Landscaping (or something like that). He started off about the same age as you and has built up a pretty good gig from what he's posted.
> Use the search function and start reading.


Sweet, will do. Thanks.


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## Shepard at FPC

linckeil;1895810 said:


> skimming through this has been pretty funny.... you seem like a good kid.
> 
> i started when i was 16 but thats only because my father had a handful of driveways he would plow and then i took it over. otherwise i don't know who would have hired a 16 year old!!!! i rode with him for years shoveling walkways until i turned 16 and he didnt want to do it anymore. so i learned the ropes all along.
> 
> at 16 i took over behind the wheel of a 1960 cj5 (this was in 1995). a few years later i was up to close to 50 driveways. i dont know how i managed with a 3 speed manual, twin stick transfer case, dual lever plow controls, lousy heat, terrible seats, no defroster, and vacuum powered wipers!!!! i guess i just didnt know any different. jeep was an awesome plowing machine, i couldn't imagine doing my 7 hour route with it today like i did way back when....
> 
> so anyway - if you want to plow, get experience under your belt. work for someone first and learn. then try to branch out. a lot of people think its easy money - far from it. but if you do it well, you can make a good chunk of change.


Haha yeah I bet it is! 

Thanks for the input, sounds like you were/are a hard worker. That jeep sounds like a pretty cool and hard to use setup lol. 

Shepard


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## SnoFarmer

Brand blind at 15

All trucks no matter the make all fall a part from plowing, all of them.
Even a ford with a v10

Your friend is going to be plowing their own drives ,sleeping or with the GF when you call Him for help at 3am.
Do you really think they are going to come running when its 10 below or in raging blizzard.
:laughing:
If they do who is doing their work?

Maybe a class in auto repair.
Do you have tools?
Welder?
Or just know someone who does?



But you don't want to hear any other options
You have it figured out.
Good or youThumbs Up

Hey randy, are the dogs ready?


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## Dogplow Dodge

Shepard at FPC;1895886 said:


> Yeah I've been doing some homework.
> 
> (no offense to Dodge fans...) that Dodge trucks aren't great. The Cummins diesel is the best, but the Dodge trucks just fall apart.
> 
> Thanks!! Shepard


Smart kid......as he understands the old dodge mentality...

Great penmanship (for his age group)..... understands sentence structure......

Get out of plowing and become an English teacher. Think of all the hot young babes you could get yourself into trouble with and make the local news...Thumbs Up

:laughing::laughing:


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## Shepard at FPC

Dogplow Dodge;1895969 said:


> Smart kid......as he understands the old dodge mentality...
> 
> Great penmanship (for his age group)..... understands sentence structure......
> 
> Get out of plowing and become an English teacher. Think of all the hot young babes you could get yourself into trouble with and make the local news...Thumbs Up
> 
> :laughing::laughing:


Dude, seriously? I appreciate the...(I think...) compliments. But I would NEVER be an ENGLISH teacher. Heck, I'm more into math and science than English. I'd sooner be an engineer, and I don't know that I want to be an engineer because of all the office time! But I'd make more money that way than teaching English...

IMO doing what you enjoy is more important than making a lot of money (within reason). I am the type who likes business ventures, I think very similarly to my grandfather who had probably 50+ different business over his life. He is now almost 80 yrs old and although his heart is bad, which really limits him, he still has business affairs going on all over the place. He has enough money coming in from just one gas station property he owns to support himself. ($50,000+) Not saying I'll grow up to be just like him by any means, but that's more the category of guy I take after, not so much the English teacher side of things. And as to the "hot babe"...I don't think you have to be an English teacher to get a good wife. It depends more on your personality and values, etc. than your job. Or at least that applies to the kind of girl I'm after. I don't want some girl marrying me just because I'm good looking and have a good job. That's why divorce rates and unhappy marriages are so prevalent these days. Sure, being attractive to each other is quite important, but it's the personality and values that makes a happy marriage.

Wow, I think I got side tracked there...this is a plow site...not a marriage opinions site...whew. 

Shepard


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## Shepard at FPC

SnoFarmer;1895953 said:


> Brand blind at 15
> 
> All trucks no matter the make all fall a part from plowing, all of them.
> Even a ford with a v10
> 
> Your friend is going to be plowing their own drives ,sleeping or with the GF when you call Him for help at 3am.
> Do you really think they are going to come running when its 10 below or in raging blizzard.
> :laughing:
> If they do who is doing their work?
> 
> Maybe a class in auto repair.
> Do you have tools?
> Welder?
> Or just know someone who does?
> 
> But you don't want to hear any other options
> You have it figured out.
> Good or youThumbs Up
> 
> Hey randy, are the dogs ready?


I know that plowing beats up any truck. I'm sure I'll have do all kinds of front end work etc. on any truck I plow with. From what I've heard I think the Ford or Chevy will hold up better than the Dodge, that's all.

I own quite a few tools, enough to do the vast majority of any fixes I may have to do. I don't personally own a welder at this point, no. I probably will by the time I get into plowing. The barn I have access to is heated, has a lift, lots of tools (including a very nice welder) and I have access to a key for getting in any time I want, day or night. First off, the guys I am speaking of, for sure one of them, are very responsible guys. There is the 19 yr old, and I don't know that I'd rely on him, and then there is another guy who has a lot of drives and two truck, so he'd help me but it might not be prompt. But the one guy is about 30 and he doesn't do a ton of driveways, and has to work during the day (using a company vehicle, not his plow truck). His truck is a 2006 Duramax, very nice truck. I'd feel bad borrowing it, but he would let me. So obviously that will screw me up during a storm, but I'll figure it out. I'm not too terribly concerned about it just yet. I know of several plow trucks I could potentially work out a where I could borrow them any time my truck breaks down. (trucks that aren't being used very often)

It has been a while...but I did take an auto class for 3-4 semesters. I learned all the really basic stuff in it, and it was a good little entrance into the auto repair world. Since then I've helped/shadowed a lot of different projects, starting at totally rebuilding an old chevy truck engine. I wasn't there for the whole project, but kind of kept up on what was being done and helped with this and that. And I've done all the repair work on my lawn equipment, at the present I'm in the middle of rebuilding a John Deere 318 engine. OK...that's an exaggeration, I have the motor out of the tractor, and I have the oil pan off, and the pistons are out. I may get the cylinder walls bored oversized, and there are several other things I have to fix while it's apart. But I'm not actually doing a complete rebuild. The point is, I do have some mechanical knowledge. As far as tools go, I have most sockets, pry bars, wrenches, screw drivers, pliers, wire testers, impact wrenches, etc. to do any normal project. And with access to other people's shops...I'm in OK shape as far as getting things fixed goes.

Thanks for the tips, and pointing out important questions. I think I just need to RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH, and then RESEARCH some more. Then, if it looks feasible for me to start plowing anytime soon, I'll have to carefully run the numbers, to figure out what my situation is.

Shepard


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## jimbo64

It's been a while but you took an auto class for 3-4 semesters and learned all the basic stuff but in an earlier post you say you are home schooled (with obviously no supervision). Your parents would let you off to plow snow for however long it takes because you are smart and can make up the time. You say you are 15 but sound a lot older. You were signed in under two different names.
Something seems a bit fishy to me but it's been an interesting thread to read on a rainy day.


----------



## PWW

You might want to do some more research on what trucks are built heavier. Gm's are rated higher my f450 gvwr is 15000 my 3500 is 15000 and there the same year and similar trucks. Every one ton dually ford I have seen is 11xxx gm one ton dually 15000. IMHO you should get a 3/4 ton gm with the 6.0 I would go with the 6.6 but it is more money. I have had and have gm's and fords I think the gm trucks hold up better but that's just me. Opinions on truck brands are like ********...


----------



## Shepard at FPC

jimbo64;1896146 said:


> It's been a while but you took an auto class for 3-4 semesters and learned all the basic stuff but in an earlier post you say you are home schooled (with obviously no supervision). Your parents would let you off to plow snow for however long it takes because you are smart and can make up the time. You say you are 15 but sound a lot older. You were signed in under two different names.
> Something seems a bit fishy to me but it's been an interesting thread to read on a rainy day.


I'm done arguing about the subject. But, you know what, if you want to say that I sound too old to be 15, I'll take it! Lol

Shepard


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## Shepard at FPC

PWW;1896287 said:


> You might want to do some more research on what trucks are built heavier. Gm's are rated higher my f450 gvwr is 15000 my 3500 is 15000 and there the same year and similar trucks. Every one ton dually ford I have seen is 11xxx gm one ton dually 15000. IMHO you should get a 3/4 ton gm with the 6.0 I would go with the 6.6 but it is more money. I have had and have gm's and fords I think the gm trucks hold up better but that's just me. Opinions on truck brands are like ********...


You know, you're actually not the only person who has told me that. I have always assumed that it's just because the people who say those things are GM fans, but it sounds like you've tried both sides and aren't as biased. I'm kind of slowly being won over to Chevy and GMC...maybe I'll try to find one. And yeah, the 6.6l Duramax would be my ultimate goal, but I doubt that I'll get one for a few years yet. I'd really like a 2006-early 2007 one, those are the best trucks out there IMO. But yeah, I'll do some research and see what I can come up with. I do notice a lot of those trucks at work around here.

Shepard


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## PWW

I am definitely a gm guy but I'm not blind or too hard headed to try another brand. I have 9 trucks and 7 are gm. I manage a fleet of service trucks that probably 40 out of the 50 are gm. I started buying Nissan vans and they seem to hold up as well as the gm's but time will tell. I have managed and owned fords the lower gvwr does not make me happy and they do not seem to hold up as well but its a small sample size. The mechanic I use is a more of a ford guy but he will tell me he doesn't think they handle the weight as well as a gm. But all the major brands have there ups and downs and they all make good work trucks for me its usually a matter of what I can find that I think is at a fair price. That is how I ended up with my 450 I got it a auction for 8050 with about 120k on the clock 7.3 engine good plow and a spreader I sold for 1500. Pay more attention to what you can find in good shape at a fair price than brand and you life is a lot easier.


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## Shepard at FPC

PWW;1896861 said:


> I am definitely a gm guy but I'm not blind or too hard headed to try another brand. I have 9 trucks and 7 are gm. I manage a fleet of service trucks that probably 40 out of the 50 are gm. I started buying Nissan vans and they seem to hold up as well as the gm's but time will tell. I have managed and owned fords the lower gvwr does not make me happy and they do not seem to hold up as well but its a small sample size. The mechanic I use is a more of a ford guy but he will tell me he doesn't think they handle the weight as well as a gm. But all the major brands have there ups and downs and they all make good work trucks for me its usually a matter of what I can find that I think is at a fair price. That is how I ended up with my 450 I got it a auction for 8050 with about 120k on the clock 7.3 engine good plow and a spreader I sold for 1500. Pay more attention to what you can find in good shape at a fair price than brand and you life is a lot easier.


Sounds like you have a lot of experience with trucks than most people do.  I think I'll aim for a Chevy with either the 6.0 Vortex or 6.6 Duramax (which is kind of my dream truck), but if I can find a good Ford first than maybe that's what I'll buy, especially if it has a 7.3. If I decide I'm not going to be able to plow next year, and it's kind of looking that way, then I really won't be in much of a hurry to get a truck, because I already have an F-150 that will tow most anything I need it to, and if I need to tow something heavy, it won't be on a regular basis, so I could probably borrow a truck.. I'll probably be able to find what I'm looking for somewhere in that time period (two years). Thanks!

Shepard


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## A Hero Lawn Care

MK97;1895144 said:


> You're WAY jumping the gun on that. You have a 1% chance of the plan getting close to ever happening. Reason I say that is a lot of who are far more experienced have issues trying to find one decent worker let alone a whole crew. Then you will have guys who wont show up and leave you high and dry. You cannot even entertain the idea of a crew unless you're there to babysit them in case they bail on you.


Terrible advice man. I hate to be the one to say it, but with that attitude entrepreneurs would be nonexistent. Small businesses represent 99.7% of all employers. My advice is try, and if it doesn't work try again. Insurance and licensing are all trivial obstacles for the determined savvy business owner. Why do I say this? Because I am doing exactly what this kid is doing. Granted when I started my business I was 22 not 15, but if I listened to the nay sayers I would be at square one without a dime to my name.

"I Can Accept Failure, Everyone Fails at somethings. But I CANNOT accept not trying"
-Micheal Jordan

That said, chase your dreams and forget about the rest. The only way to find out how to dominate the market is to jump in head first. Find out what works and what makes money and stick with it. Create a niche market and make as much money as you can while you can. That is business 101. Just my $0.02


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## jonniesmooth

A Hero Lawn Care;2134344 said:


> Terrible advice man. I hate to be the one to say it, but with that attitude entrepreneurs would be nonexistent. Small businesses represent 99.7% of all employers. My advice is try, and if it doesn't work try again. Insurance and licensing are all trivial obstacles for the determined savvy business owner. Why do I say this? Because I am doing exactly what this kid is doing. Granted when I started my business I was 22 not 15, but if I listened to the nay sayers I would be at square one without a dime to my name.
> 
> "I Can Accept Failure, Everyone Fails at somethings. But I CANNOT accept not trying"
> -Micheal Jordan
> 
> That said, chase your dreams and forget about the rest. The only way to find out how to dominate the market is to jump in head first. Find out what works and what makes money and stick with it. Create a niche market and make as much money as you can while you can. That is business 101. Just my $0.02


Welcome to Plowsite! This thread is 2 years old. Look in the upper left corner of the previous posts for the date. For what it's worth.


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## Sawboy

And please cite the source of that amazingly accurate 99.7% statistic!


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## A Hero Lawn Care

jonniesmooth;2134778 said:


> Welcome to Plowsite! This thread is 2 years old. Look in the upper left corner of the previous posts for the date. For what it's worth.


10-4 Rubber Ducky.

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction, but while I have your attention where would one find some good threads on getting into the plow business for guys in already established the lawn business?

I did some residential stuff but nothing to brag about. I want to find some good stuff on here to help me with getting my toes wet in this biz. I am looking to pick some brains who people who have taken the same path!

Thanks!


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## A Hero Lawn Care

Sawboy;2134815 said:


> And please cite the source of that amazingly accurate 99.7% statistic!


OK Wiseguy be prepared to feel silly about calling me out

https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/FAQ_Sept_2012.pdf

99.7% of small businesses make up all employers. You are crazy for thinking that corporate America is the vast majority of any employers. They are the big wigs and that is why they dominate the market. There are so few and far because it is hard to get to conglomerate sized business. I mean You look like you have some trucks but I very strongly doubt that you are 150 employees strong making you a big business. Just like most of the businesses in America.If it was easy wouldn't you be there?

It is called a college class, you might want to invest some money into things like that before you try and poke negligent fun at someone. I am young. I am smart. And you better not sleep on people like me because we are coming up and ready to dominate the market. At least I am. Not only am I a hard working man, I am business savvy and educated. Sleeping on me is going to be a huge mistake for guys like you. I don't look at this like pushing snow, I look at this as someone who plans to take this game by the stranglehold.

Don't poke the beast.

So kick rocks Einstein!


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## BUFF

A Hero Lawn Care;2135165 said:


> OK Wiseguy be prepared to feel silly about calling me out
> 
> https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/FAQ_Sept_2012.pdf
> 
> 99.7% of small businesses make up all employers. You are crazy for thinking that corporate America is the vast majority of any employers. They are the big wigs and that is why they dominate the market. There are so few and far because it is hard to get to conglomerate sized business. I mean You look like you have some trucks but I very strongly doubt that you are 150 employees strong making you a big business. Just like most of the businesses in America.If it was easy wouldn't you be there?
> 
> It is called a college class, you might want to invest some money into things like that before you try and poke negligent fun at someone. I am young. I am smart. And you better not sleep on people like me because we are coming up and ready to dominate the market. At least I am. Not only am I a hard working man, I am business savvy and educated. Sleeping on me is going to be a huge mistake for guys like you. I don't look at this like pushing snow, I look at this as someone who plans to take this game by the stranglehold.
> 
> Don't poke the beast.
> 
> So kick rocks Einstein!


Are you sure your from Denver........ 
You mentioned you're hoping to learn more about snow removal and you claim to be smart. Here's a bit of advise and take as you want, Think before you volley back and no need to get sooo defensive. Guys will be more receptive in sharing strategy's with someone that doesn't come off arrogant and cocky.


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## Randall Ave

BUFF;2135283 said:


> Are you sure your from Denver........
> You mentioned you're hoping to learn more about snow removal and you claim to be smart. Here's a bit of advise and take as you want, Think before you volley back and no need to get sooo defensive. Guys will be more receptive in sharing strategy's with someone that doesn't come off arrogant and cocky.


Ya beat me to it!!


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## Mike_PS

BUFF;2135283 said:


> Are you sure your from Denver........
> You mentioned you're hoping to learn more about snow removal and you claim to be smart. Here's a bit of advise and take as you want, Think before you volley back and no need to get sooo defensive. Guys will be more receptive in sharing strategy's with someone that doesn't come off arrogant and cocky.


agreed...no need to come on here as a new member and start hurling around insults. so, A Hero Lawn Care, please keep this in mind moving forward

thanks :waving:


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## SnoFarmer

A Hero Lawn Care;2134344 said:


> Terrible adv. Why do I say this? Because I am doing exactly what this kid is doing. Granted when I started my business I was 22 not 15, but if I listened to the nay sayers I would be at square one without a dime to my name.
> 
> That said, chase your dreams and forget about the rest. The only way to find out how to dominate the market is to jump in head first. Find out what works and what makes money and stick with it. Create a niche market and make as much money as you can while you can. That is business 101. Just my $0.02


Ok, so you are chasing your dreams.
Meanwhile Back here on earth, we are finishing up another season.

You say., you were jumping in head first to dominate the market?
How is the noggin? 
Hahaha,,,haaaaa.....
Ok ok ok.How did your winter go,
You dominated so this must mean you made some serious $$$$$.

How maney drives or lots did you service?
What are your projected profits?
What niche did you fill?

Sorry if this sounds personal but you seem to have the answers.
Educate me.


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## Mark Oomkes

A Hero Lawn Care;2135165 said:


> So kick rocks Einstein!


Wait a cotton pickin minute.......I'm Einstein.


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## Randall Ave

Mark Oomkes;2135291 said:


> Wait a cotton pickin minute.......I'm Einstein.


I was waiting for that!!


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## 1olddogtwo

A Hero Lawn Care;2135165 said:


> OK Wiseguy be prepared to feel silly about calling me out
> 
> https://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/FAQ_Sept_2012.pdf
> 
> 99.7% of small businesses make up all employers. You are crazy for thinking that corporate America is the vast majority of any employers. They are the big wigs and that is why they dominate the market. There are so few and far because it is hard to get to conglomerate sized business. I mean You look like you have some trucks but I very strongly doubt that you are 150 employees strong making you a big business. Just like most of the businesses in America.If it was easy wouldn't you be there?
> 
> It is called a college class, you might want to invest some money into things like that before you try and poke negligent fun at someone. I am young. I am smart. And you better not sleep on people like me because we are coming up and ready to dominate the market. At least I am. Not only am I a hard working man, I am business savvy and educated. Sleeping on me is going to be a huge mistake for guys like you. I don't look at this like pushing snow, I look at this as someone who plans to take this game by the stranglehold.
> 
> Don't poke the beast.
> 
> So kick rocks Einstein!


Really.......


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## Sawboy

Lol. Good riddance.


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## A Hero Lawn Care

SnoFarmer;2135288 said:


> Ok, so you are chasing your dreams.
> Meanwhile Back here on earth, we are finishing up another season.
> 
> You say., you were jumping in head first to dominate the market?
> How is the noggin?
> Hahaha,,,haaaaa.....
> Ok ok ok.How did your winter go,
> You dominated so this must mean you made some serious $$$$$.
> 
> How maney drives or lots did you service?
> What are your projected profits?
> What niche did you fill?
> 
> Sorry if this sounds personal but you seem to have the answers.
> Educate me.


Im an established business in lawn care and landscaping. I want to Try dabbling in snow to keep busy. Hence the reason Im here. Im a novice when it comes to snow removal. And i was speaking on how I jumped into my business Head first Everyone went on and on about how it was a bad idea to start a business in a saturated market and I would never make $$ nor would i Get business because all the experienced "older" 
already had all the work. Everyone is so pessimistic it drives down morale. Why cant i talk the kid up? Everyone always told me no i cant do this. Well things turned our quite the opposite.

I literally only had to 2 commercial accounts and 9 residentail for snow. Again nothing to brag about but i didnt ever advertisd this part of my business. I was kind if thrown into it. Yeah, I do hope to dominate the market but I'll never get there by listening to peoples negative vibes.

So am I wrong for defending myself to someone whose intention was to make me sound stupid?

Im normally a pretty chippy guy but i do have some bite. Just sayin


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## Randall Ave

Just curious, if you are an established lawn care company, how many employees do you have, and what were 2015 gross sales?


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## A Hero Lawn Care

BUFF;2135283 said:


> Are you sure your from Denver........
> You mentioned you're hoping to learn more about snow removal and you claim to be smart. Here's a bit of advise and take as you want, Think before you volley back and no need to get sooo defensive. Guys will be more receptive in sharing strategy's with someone that doesn't come off arrogant and cocky.


I know you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. I was just a little ticked by the guy for attempting to belittle me. You are 100% correct about the right attitude and i let the 25 year old come out in me.

Denver born and raised with over 100 years of rooted ancestary in the state. 
Like i have told others, Im a lawn and landscape business and am attempting to be better prepared for the next snow season.

Hopefully you can better understand where i was coming from with this rant. I really see negative stuff coming from the experienced guys but i thought this was a site to help guya network and share ideas... Not a place to diacourage a 15 year old from pursuing his dreams. See where i am coming from??


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## A Hero Lawn Care

Michael J. Donovan;2135287 said:


> agreed...no need to come on here as a new member and start hurling around insults. so, A Hero Lawn Care, please keep this in mind moving forward
> 
> thanks :waving:


Im picking up what you are putting down. I'll tone down the piss and vinigar.


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## A Hero Lawn Care

Randall Ave;2135387 said:


> Just curious, if you are an established lawn care company, how many employees do you have, and what were 2015 gross sales?


6

And enough to keep me happy. 
What was your gross revenue? And your SSN??


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## Randall Ave

285000.00. snow is not my main deal


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## A Hero Lawn Care

Sawboy;2135310 said:


> Lol. Good riddance.


Hey man, you came at me like I made it up. Why would I make something like that up? Im no liar.


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## A Hero Lawn Care

Randall Ave;2135398 said:


> 285000.00. snow is not my main deal


Thats pretty good. Thats where i want be next year. What is your primary business. Congrats on a solid year. Was your p&l good as well??


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## SnoFarmer

hero,
What's the name of your business?
Do you have a web site?


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## Randall Ave

What is p&l?? I got a feeling this is gonna take a turn, I'm out. And I only have a secretary.


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## SnoFarmer

P&l
I'm thinking profit-loss.


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## A Hero Lawn Care

Randall Ave;2135411 said:


> What is p&l?? I got a feeling this is gonna take a turn, I'm out. And I only have a secretary.


P&L is a profit and loss sheet

It helps when you are looking back at all of your expenses whether it be labor, gas, a normal or accelerated depreciation rate on equipment over x amount dollars (generally your plows, trucks, atvs *purchase-salvage/hrs used in season*years to own*) and your actual revenue to tell you what your business looks like.

It basically the thingy that tells you if you are in the red or in the black for a fiscal year or quarterly reports.


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## A Hero Lawn Care

SnoFarmer;2135410 said:


> hero,
> What's the name of your business?
> Do you have a web site?


Yeah man I encourage you to check out my business.

website:
www.aherolawncare.com

facebook:

www.facebook.com/aherolawncare

I think I should pop up if you google A Hero Lawn Care

If you need to get your results to pop up type in Westminster CO in your search as well.


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## A Hero Lawn Care

SnoFarmer;2135410 said:


> hero,
> What's the name of your business?
> Do you have a web site?


Also it is A Hero Lawn Care and Landscapes

It is such a long name I get used to just saying A Hero Lawn Care lol


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## BossPlow2010

A Hero Lawn Care;2135413 said:


> P&L is a profit and loss sheet
> 
> It helps when you are looking back at all of your expenses whether it be labor, gas, a normal or accelerated depreciation rate on equipment over x amount dollars (generally your plows, trucks, atvs *purchase-salvage/hrs used in season*years to own*) and your actual revenue to tell you what your business looks like.
> 
> It basically the thingy that tells you if you are in the red or in the black for a fiscal year or quarterly reports.


No need to condescend, 
So, hero; what's your question as far as the snow business goes?


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## A Hero Lawn Care

BossPlow2010;2135428 said:


> No need to condescend,
> So, hero; what's your question as far as the snow business goes?


Well didnt mean to condescend. It was intended as a light hearted explanation. I have no foul intentions with anyone.

Anyhow i want to know where to start. I was kind of just expected to do the work for some clients and well... What are you guys doing for ad campaigns? What size crew everyone is running for 7500-10000 sq ft lots? What are some effecient rigs tou guys run and why? I want to really pick some brains about how you guys are doing it. What type of initial investment should i be planning for? Like i said Im green to this work but im a quick learner. I had some dinky equipment and had a tough time. Are you guys running skids for smaller parking lots? Should i be submitting rfp´s now? I want to hone in on everyones opinion and reasoning?? Ya know?


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## BUFF

A Hero Lawn Care;2135389 said:


> I know you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. I was just a little ticked by the guy for attempting to belittle me. You are 100% correct about the right attitude and i let the 25 year old come out in me.
> 
> Denver born and raised with over 100 years of rooted ancestary in the state.
> Like i have told others, Im a lawn and landscape business and am attempting to be better prepared for the next snow season.
> 
> Hopefully you can better understand where i was coming from with this rant. I really see negative stuff coming from the experienced guys but i thought this was a site to help guya network and share ideas... Not a place to diacourage a 15 year old from pursuing his dreams. See where i am coming from??


 I know several kids your age that have done very well in Lawncare /Snow Removal. Seeing opportunity's and understanding them along with bouncing ideas off old guys is a big part of how they've grown. I will say all of them a pretty humble guys and aren't oot to be the dominate bull in the pasture.

Discouragement comes when a guy thinks he knows it all, has an excuse for everything and doesn't listen. This escalates into some pretty harsh back and forth which does nothing productive other than giving Michael something to do.

You'll find that we're in a completely different market oot here and mulch of what you'll read here doesn't apply, however you can Taylor what you find on PS to work in our market.

So throttle it back a bit and walk rather than run, you'll find there's some pretty knowledgeable guys here that can help grown your business by listening to them. You'll also find there's a pretty tight knit group of guys that have a lot to offer but sometimes it comes with some banter too.


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## JMHConstruction

Hero, no need to measure our...you know. From young guy to young guy, don't brag about your business to guys who have been doing it for much longer.

How are you doing your current accounts without your own rig? This site has a ton of info, but you have use the search. If you have a specific question start your own thread, so you get the most views. I would plan to get guys and equipment based on your accounts (at first) and not invest a ton of money into something and only land a few jobs. Also, don't make enemies with the big players on here, they will help you the most.


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## A Hero Lawn Care

BUFF;2135438 said:


> I know several kids your age that have done very well in Lawncare /Snow Removal. Seeing opportunity's and understanding them along with bouncing ideas off old guys is a big part of how they've grown. I will say all of them a pretty humble guys and aren't oot to be the dominate bull in the pasture.
> 
> Discouragement comes when a guy thinks he knows it all, has an excuse for everything and doesn't listen. This escalates into some pretty harsh back and forth which does nothing productive other than giving Michael something to do.
> 
> You'll find that we're in a completely different market oot here and mulch of what you'll read here doesn't apply, however you can Taylor what you find on PS to work in our market.
> 
> So throttle it back a bit and walk rather than run, you'll find there's some pretty knowledgeable guys here that can help grown your business by listening to them. You'll also find there's a pretty tight knit group of guys that have a lot to offer but sometimes it comes with some banter too.


Good advice. I was really talking about the kid being discourged, not me. I have thick skin. I remember When I was 15 I would literally skip school to help my cousin who owned his plowing business. He is actually a great mentour but now at 38 and three kids he has very little time to shed light for me anymore. I did come off cocky and I probably am considered so by most standards. However, I have been and will continue to be the first to admit I am a rookie to this side of my type of work. I am here to listen with open ears to whomever has a wise bit of advice. I guess i came off the wrong way in my defense of this kid and i could have probably taken a different direction and ignored some of the offhand comnents but im sure you can remember how hard it was when you started out. And would have loved a good tidbit of good intention from elders. That is why i was so upset with everyone for giving that kid such a hard time telling him he has less than 1% of his plan even working. Even if that were true we should help build each other up not breakinup others down. You mentioned the importance of being humble, aren't our shortcomings in business humbling experiences? If so we should ALL be humbled. The kid had a great idea, so bash him bc he is young? I get how he was being a know it all, but I dont understand breaking him down. As for me, I can be a bit of a firecracker out of nature but I am going to admit i have failed and picked myself up time after time. So I mean if you guys bust my balls a bit I will fire right back. It doesnt mean I am trying to be rude. That does not mean i am not humbled bc I definitely DO have room to work on it. Be it as it may, I hope is to bounce ideas around with you all and maybe become part of that tight knit group.. but that is just where I stand, for what it is worth.


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## A Hero Lawn Care

JMHConstruction;2135440 said:


> Hero, no need to measure our...you know. From young guy to young guy, don't brag about your business to guys who have been doing it for much longer.
> 
> How are you doing your current accounts without your own rig? This site has a ton of info, but you have use the search. If you have a specific question start your own thread, so you get the most views. I would plan to get guys and equipment based on your accounts (at first) and not invest a ton of money into something and only land a few jobs. Also, don't make enemies with the big players on here, they will help you the most.


By HAND!

I took two of my guys and drank coffee and stayed up all night SHOVELING our butts off.

I did not even want to get involved with snow since I really had no idea what I was doing. But like I said, my clients just expected me to offer snow removal. I didnt want to lose those maintenance accounts to other contractors. Well needless to say doing those accts by hand was INTENSE and I not even a realistic idea looking back on it. However, when I was out there i got that money itch again. Now I cant even look at snow the same way. I want to get into it now. Again that is why i am here. I didnt think i bragged about my business. But yeah you are right. I handled that the wrong way. I do have trycks just have not mounted them with plows. Also could you guys do lotslike this with an atv plow and 1 laborer to shovel or is that also a crazy idea?


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## Mark Oomkes

You shoveled commercial accounts? 

If you've lived in Denver your whole life you'll also know your ATV question is ridiculous.


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## SnoFarmer

What does the hoa think of your fledgling business being run
Out of your parents garage ?

I have a different q .
Why is it that people your age with 2 degrees, member of Sigma Alpha Pi, New Student Orientation, Altitude Leadership etc etc, and I assume a mound of debt and not pursue a career in their field of study?
Then live in their parents home as they cut lawns for $30 or get a entery level job in some unrelated field.


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## BUFF

Mark Oomkes;2135486 said:


> You shoveled commercial accounts?
> 
> If you've lived in Denver your whole life you'll also know your ATV question is ridiculous.


Hey Einstein if you go back a few post Hero mentioned 7500-10000sq ft commercial accounts. At first I thought a zero was missing but me's thinks not now. Probably small dentist office / daycare type stuff, but still that's a pretty good size area to shovel especially last week when the spring blizzard rolled through leaving 16-24" of cement in the area.


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## 1olddogtwo

Perhaps Taylor had borrowed her husband's blower and her and her friends/employees banged it out all night?

My point is we shouldn't assume everything thing to be black and white here.

Taylor, I have to give you some credit, it's tough to trying and hang with the big boys. If you weren't so defensive and flying off the handle you might actually learn something. There are quite a few guys with years and years of experience that have started off where you have. They've grown some rather successful businesses and it would be a hindrance for you to alienate them. Plowsite is a wealth of info, experience and incredible knowledgeable participants.

It is a slow time of the year with the season wrapping up. I would suggest you spend time researching older threads.


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## SnoFarmer

I think what the old dog is trying to say is what you should have learned when pledging to SAP, the more cockey Ya are the more hazing you will receive.

Hang in there. 
If this is what you're going to stick with for a while. 

The networking and opertunities are here, it's up to you.


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## Mark Oomkes

Popcorn.....

Peanuts.....

Get your popcorn and peanuts heah!


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## 1olddogtwo

Mark Oomkes;2135499 said:


> Popcorn.....
> 
> Peanuts.....
> 
> Get your popcorn and peanuts heah!


Hahahaha, funny you say that, I am starting a baseball stadium project on Monday


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## SnoFarmer

".............


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## Mike_PS

I think we've all seen/heard enough on this subject so I'm closing it

thanks


----------

