# Anyone else find it impossible to find help?



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I'm so over the lack of help and/or people and they're BS. Our winter has been very mild so far this season but we've had a few big storms and have already been through 6 sidewalk people, 1 main employee quite Christmas Day (we got 30" in a day and a half), and left me in a bad spot, countless excuses why they can't work. Im so sick of hearing "do you pay under the table" because it will screw with their unemployment, sick of hearing "no I'm making enough to get by on unemployment ". One guy was a guy I know that went from having a 6 figure income and quitting to buy a homestead and live a simple life. His money is dried up but has a Wife, 4 or 5 small children and all he makes money with is Youtube videos (like 1200/month), doing welding once in a blue moon and his Wife has a part time job...but needs money because he realized he cant live off of Youtube and the occasional welding job, I offered him a plowing job but didn't like that it was at night mostly...I give up! Already decided to hammer through this year, drop all but a handful of our bigger accounts, run 1 backhoe, trading in our other backhoe on a Wacker Neuson wheel loader and putting a HLA type plow on it to take the place of 2-3 trucks, sell off 2 other trucks, salt spreaders and absolutely stop offering sidewalks. Rant over!


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Not defending nor encouraging the practice of paying under the table _at all_, but I have a friend in the same situation currently. Why would he go shovel for $20 an hour in a blizzard while collecting unemployment? If he makes any more than what he would have made while working, he forfeits the same amount from his unemployment, meaning he's working for free. And thanks to all those stimulus packages...

And unfortunately, the kind of people available this time of year on call at any hour of any day are most likely seasonal workers who are on unemployment.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

cwren2472 said:


> Why would he go shovel for $20 an hour in a blizzard while collecting unemployment?
> 
> And thanks to all those stimulus packages...


And there lies the problem...

Even at 50% more than that, it's a problem.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I have heard there are ways around the stupid unemployment system...I have no idea if these things are true. 

But it is a system setup to create criminals, work more than 1 day a week and they get nothing...but who can survive on 2 or 3 days pay? 

Had 1 applicant that stated he didn't need a P/T job after finding out about the extension of the extra "free" money.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Had 1 applicant that stated he didn't need a P/T job after finding out about the extension of the extra "free" money.


^-- This. If the amount paid by unemployment was a fraction of what one would make otherwise, maybe people would be willing to work P/T to make up the difference. If the "bonus" cash makes up 100% (or more) of their pay, who in their right mind is going to go shovel for free to _lose_ money?



Mark Oomkes said:


> but who can survive on 2 or 3 days pay?


Lots of people when someone _else _will pay under the table...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

The welfare state is in full force


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I guess Ive always been the unfortunate one who had to have 2,3 even 4 jobs at one point (divorce and child support). Its just a sad state when people are content with just getting by. Ive offered my Son (21 year old) a salary to work but he's one of the ones who would rather sit on the couch and work his regular 40 hours at a job he hates then even offer to help out. Our sidewalk route pays 200/ round and takes 7-8 hours to do with one guy using all of our equipment and cant find anyone, sad. Also what gets me is some of these places we do ***** about the same thing (no good help) but yet "why weren't our sidewalks done yet or why did it take you so long to get here". Just sucks that we have plenty of work, turning down work just because we dont have the manpower.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Don't get me started.
I just don't get what happened to the workforce in this country. I think its due to enabling. 
I've had people ask if I need any help and not show up.
I can't even get subs who are advertising their services to call back. Why advertise if you don't need the work?
Maybe they get a warm and fuzzy feeling by telling themselves they're trying.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> ^-- This. If the amount paid by unemployment was a fraction of what one would make otherwise, maybe people would be willing to work P/T to make up the difference. If the "bonus" cash makes up 100% (or more) of their pay, who in their right mind is going to go shovel for free to _lose_ money?


Liking the new avatar. 

Can't wait to see what you're coming up with on the others...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Luther said:


> Liking the new avatar.
> 
> Can't wait to see what you're coming up with on the others...


Oh, it's going to be EPIC.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

EWSplow said:


> Don't get me started.
> I just don't get what happened to the workforce in this country. I think its due to enabling.
> I've had people ask if I need any help and not show up.
> I can't even get subs who are advertising their services to call back. Why advertise if you don't need the work?
> Maybe they get a warm and fuzzy feeling by telling themselves they're trying.


Yep! I messaged a guy advertising sidewalk snow shoveling and nada!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

The seasonal worker/unemployment dilemma has been around since the dawn of time. Finding good help was a problem for my company for the 32 yrs it was operating. Granted, it was worse the last 15 yrs or so. The sidewalk work has also always been a problem. 
I honestly don’t understand why special rules and exceptions can’t be made for snow removal workers with regards to unemployment. It’s a necessary labor force that has an unpredictable money stream. Lawmakers just don’t give AF. We are lowly citizens doing menial tasks.
OP, I feel your pain. Try your best to arrange your work with as few employees as possible. And the employees you do have, you should pay well over what you deem fair. That’s terrible to say but I see no other way around it.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

I have had friends and family ask me to lend them money. I offered these people part time weekend work that would not interfere with their full time work instead of lending them money. 
The response >>> "I would not lower myself to work on the weekend" 
My response>>> "I make all my money on the weekend. I would not lower myself to lend it to you."


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

About people that advertise to work for you shoveling snow, etc. Unemployment, in some states, mandate that you keep track of the "EFFORTS" you made to secure a job. These people clip the phony ad they posted. If they are audited, they pull out the ad and all the other help wanted ads on craigslist.


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## dmacleo (Mar 11, 2017)

my boss (good friend of mine) has had issues. its a work ethic thing with many I think. I'm about as physically broken as you can get and still drive and I am the dependable one. sad state of affairs when I am the good one.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

dmacleo said:


> I am the dependable one. sad state of affairs when I am the good one.


Isn't it great when everyone else sets the bar low enough that you look like a good employee just by showing up?

Yeah, buddy!


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## dmacleo (Mar 11, 2017)

cwren2472 said:


> Isn't it great when everyone else sets the bar low enough that you look like a good employee just by showing up?
> 
> Yeah, buddy!


LOL yup still...sad sad times


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

dmacleo said:


> LOL yup still...sad sad times


Oh, yeah, that's what I meant. Sad. Sure thing.


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## Brian Holmes (Dec 25, 2020)

I know a lot of people don`t want to be around us but the pool of retired but still able people is enormous. They show up for work when called ,don`t *****, aren`t trying to con the Government, willing to work for reasonable wages, might want a coffle break once in a while but that`s all. Maybe you all should get away from the young loosers of the current generation and try them.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Brian Holmes said:


> I know a lot of people don`t want to be around us but the pool of retired but still able people is enormous. They show up for work when called ,don`t *****, aren`t trying to con the Government, willing to work for reasonable wages, might want a coffle break once in a while but that`s all. Maybe you all should get away from the young loosers of the current generation and try them.


Yes, the older workforce is more reliable...to an extent. I don't know many retired guys who'd wanna get out in crappy weather and service sidewalks though. 
Also, the older guys don't need the money that bad, so they can pick and choose their work.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Best laborer I ever had was 67 and had already retired twice


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Kvston said:


> Best laborer I ever had was 67 and had already retired twice


Personally speaking, my body isn't what it used to be. I know I've lost strength. I can't lidt what I could when I was younger, etc.
At 60, I've been considering working for someone else for a few years. Only doing interior trim, maybe porch railings, etc. I'm getting tired of the headaches that come with running a business. 
It would be nice to go to work and when I go home at night, the work doesn't come with me.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Kvston said:


> Best laborer I ever had was 67 and had already retired twice


Sad but true... My best two operaters both passed in the past 5 years...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

@EWSplow id probably hire you...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Kvston said:


> @EWSplow id probably hire you...


It would be a long commute. Can you cover travel time?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

EWSplow said:


> It would be a long commute. Can you cover travel time?


Can't you just run there...?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> Can't you just run there...?


Apparently, you haven't been keeping up...the 1st 100'...


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

I don’t advertise for snow work. Just do what comes my way to keep the landscaping work...this might be the best I’ve been set up staff wise for snow work in years. On top of my normal guys, I Have a few ex employees that moved on to start their own businesses that I still have relationships with that don’t want the hassle of drumming up snow work...another ex employee that is now a union gas fitter I believe. His work sites shut down anytime it snows.....and of course we have no snow.

I would approach any small mow guys you see throughout the year and gauge their interest. Chances are they aren’t drawing unemployment. Chances are they may struggle through the winter.

I wish somehow I could find a retiree that only wanted a few days a week during the growing season to take care of light pruning or mulching jobs. Have yet to be able to find someone.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Here in Southern WI it just doesn’t snow like it used to. At least that’s my perception anyway. You may have guys all lined up, but if it doesn’t snow for 3 weeks at a time they are moving on to another job. I’m talking about times when people aren’t making unemployment plus $300-$600 extra.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Brian Holmes said:


> I know a lot of people don`t want to be around us but the pool of retired but still able people is enormous.


Maybe lay off the Ben Gay a little bit? And don't always remind the boss when you are right? J/K.......


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

If you bank up hours then pay in full weeks, it helps to keep your guys with you. Call it a give and take. They can collect their unemployment, then when they rack up 40 hours, you cut them a check and they don't file that week.

Never done that myself, but I heard of this guy who has done it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> If you bank up hours then pay in full weeks, it helps to keep your guys with you. Call it a give and take. They can collect their unemployment, then when they rack up 40 hours, you cut them a check and they don't file that week.
> 
> Never done that myself, but I heard of this guy who has done it.


I think we know that same guy...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Philbilly2 said:


> If you bank up hours then pay in full weeks, it helps to keep your guys with you. Call it a give and take. They can collect their unemployment, then when they rack up 40 hours, you cut them a check and they don't file that week.
> 
> Never done that myself, but I heard of this guy who has done it.


Can't do it legally. You must report wages you made for the week. I've heard of it done as well, it's just illegal.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> If you bank up hours then pay in full weeks, it helps to keep your guys with you. Call it a give and take. They can collect their unemployment, then when they rack up 40 hours, you cut them a check and they don't file that week.
> 
> Never done that myself, but I heard of this guy who has done it.


A little under the table, but at least they don't lose unemployment compensation on partial weeks of work.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> Can't do it legally. You must report wages you made for the week. I've heard of it done as well, it's just illegal.


What if the employee doesn't report it that week?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if the employee doesn't report it that week?


As far as I know, they mis-reported and would be liable to repay that money.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

WIPensFan said:


> Can't do it legally. You must report wages you made for the week. I've heard of it done as well, it's just illegal.





WIPensFan said:


> As far as I know, they mis-reported and would be liable to repay that money.


Did you get a job with the DWD after retiring from the snow biz? Asking for a friend.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

WIPensFan said:


> Can't do it legally. You must report wages you made for the week. I've heard of it done as well, it's just illegal.


Correct... they did not make any wages... till the week that you pay them for a full week. That week they dont collect on.

Or so I have heard


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> Did you get a job with the DWD after retiring from the snow biz? Asking for a friend.


Haha, no.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Philbilly2 said:


> Correct... they did not make any wages... till the week that you pay them for a full week. That week they dont collect on.
> 
> Or so I have heard


Yes, understood


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

This is WI. I don't know if it's the same everywhere.
https://dwd.wisconsin.gov/uiben/handbook/english/contentspart3.htm


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Employee retention of solid employees takes some rule "bending" on both sides to keep everyone in a spot they can work with.

At least that is what that guy who Mark knows told me.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> Employee retention of solid employees takes some rule "bending" on both sides to keep everyone in a spot they can work with.
> 
> At least that is what that guy who Mark knows told me.


He must have been sitting in between us at the bar...I heard that exact same thing from him.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Hope you dont have any slip and falls the week you werent paying anybody to work that storm...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

They should let snow removal employees make $100-$150/week before it affects their weekly benefit. That would help immensely to attract and keep snow removal employees.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> Hope you dont have any slip and falls the week you werent paying anybody to work that storm...


What storm?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> Hope you dont have any slip and falls the week you werent paying anybody to work that storm...


Meh, usually paychecks come a week or two later...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> They should let snow removal employees make $100-$150/week before it affects their weekly benefit. That would help immensely to attract and keep snow removal employees.


You serious Clark?

That's one short storm...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You serious Clark?
> 
> That's one short storm...


Well, I'm trying to get them something... I can't help it if you get snow every 24hrs! You should lobby for $300-$400/week.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> Well, I'm trying to get them something... I can't help it if you get snow every 24hrs! You should lobby for $300-$400/week.


I'm just saying that in this day and age, $100 doesn't go far. It goes nowhere to get a guy onto a sidewalk crew.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Meh, usually paychecks come a week or two later...


Bingo


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm just saying that in this day and age, $100 doesn't go far. It goes nowhere to get a guy onto a sidewalk crew.


Yes I understand. And I agree. I guess I'm behind on the times and what guys are getting paid hrly to do snow. I would just like to see them take home more money and still keep their unemployment benefit. I guess if you're making good money with snow every week you don't need unemployment.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

WIPensFan said:


> I guess if you're making good money with snow every week you don't need unemployment.


That is the issue in my opinion. People want to get paid more and more per hour, but the snow and ice industry work appears to be able to charge less and less.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Philbilly2 said:


> That is the issue in my opinion. People want to get paid more and more per hour, but the snow and ice industry work appears to be able to charge less and less.


Yep, that is true. Maybe not all areas, but many for sure. It will be interesting to see when the pandemic recedes, how the working from home affects office buildings and commerce in general with regards to needing businesses plowed. Many businesses found out they can conduct business as usual remotely, and save loads of money in the process. Will businesses need their lots plowed moving forward? IMO it will reduce snow plowing revenue on the commercial side, as well as the residential side because people are now home and can do it themselves.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> He must have been sitting in between us at the bar...I heard that exact same thing from him.


Did said guy order nachos?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> That is the issue in my opinion. People want to get paid more and more per hour, but the snow and ice industry work appears to be able to charge less and less.


That can be blamed on guys coming into the industry, not realizing all costs involved, and /or not being fully legitimate. If someone can do it for less, why pay more?
Example: I dumped a slow payer last year. I've driven by a few of his properties. He's got 2 people with a blower serving them. One, a two family residential has two driveways on a corner lot. Sure, it can be done with blowers, but what happens after the city plow goes by and the driveways are blocked by a windrow? Returning for cleanup was part of my service. I'm also guessing they have no idea what insurance they have to carry. 
I got to know the tenants (both wealthy single older women) quite well through the years. I'm sure with what they pay in rent they expect a better job than they are getting. That was one of the few properties where the tenants had my phone number. 
As long as there are people doing this kind of work, some of us aren't getting what we should for the service we provide.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

The problem is the idea of selling is lost on a whole generation. Sales today is about finding out what they are paying and beating it. Telling them what they want to hear and making the sale. Performance doesn't matter anymore, its a lot of effort to make a contract holder meet a spec, and most managers arent motivated to care, they met budget by hiring the cheaper guy.


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## SilverPine (Dec 7, 2018)

I find it easier to get good help in the winter compared to the summer. Most winter guys know how hard the work is in the winter, if its not their first. They key is to make sure it isn't their first winter. Pay them a decent salary, even the shovelers. I know we are in the business to make money. But paying them so little or nothing at all when it doesn't snow, can be very hard for them and their family. A salary is much more secure than an hourly wage. With hourly, its usually either the employer or the employee making alot of money while the other doesn't.
May not work for all companies but works very well for mine. Keep in mind, I charge monthly not per push.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

unemployment is not an all or nothing, you can declare a day of work for 12hrs of snow pay, just a little bend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

leolkfrm said:


> unemployment is not an all or nothing, you can declare a day of work for 12hrs of snow pay, just a little bend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I can't remember for sure, but I believe in Wisconsin, every dollar you make is deducted from unemployment compensation.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Bending rules to keep good people employed? Insanity. I have heard through the grapevine guys out there do such things.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Same here. Two ground guys aren’t working because the unemployment, one operator because he got cash pay elsewhere, and one snowflake who melted.

$25-35 8 hour minimum, usually 10-12 hours.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

cjames808 said:


> Same here. Two ground guys aren't working because the unemployment, one operator because he got cash pay elsewhere, and one snowflake who melted.
> 
> $25-35 8 hour minimum, usually 10-12 hours.


You're going to be busy squeegeeing slush by morning.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> You're going to be busy squeegeeing slush by morning.


I had to clean off my satellite dish. Had to get up from watching hockey in front of the fire and go outside and put a pole pruner together and scrape off the dish. Can you believe my hardships?!?


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

WIPensFan said:


> I had to clean off my satellite dish. Had to get up from watching hockey in front of the fire and go outside and put a pole pruner together and scrape off the dish. Can you believe my hardships?!?


Not without video.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Philbilly2 said:


> If you bank up hours then pay in full weeks, it helps to keep your guys with you. Call it a give and take. They can collect their unemployment, then when they rack up 40 hours, you cut them a check and they don't file that week.
> 
> Never done that myself, but I heard of this guy who has done it.


Yeah you "hear" about that from time to time. Usually with the dol claim story tied to it.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

WIPensFan said:


> I had to clean off my satellite dish. Had to get up from watching hockey in front of the fire and go outside and put a pole pruner together and scrape off the dish. Can you believe my hardships?!?


Next fall slather it in cheap car wax....
Works on plow mold boards too...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

prezek said:


> Not without video.


:laugh: Next time...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> Next fall slather it in cheap car wax....
> Works on plow mold boards too...


Nice, thanks.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

SilverPine said:


> I find it easier to get good help in the winter compared to the summer. Most winter guys know how hard the work is in the winter, if its not their first. They key is to make sure it isn't their first winter. Pay them a decent salary, even the shovelers. I know we are in the business to make money. But paying them so little or nothing at all when it doesn't snow, can be very hard for them and their family. A salary is much more secure than an hourly wage. With hourly, its usually either the employer or the employee making alot of money while the other doesn't.
> May not work for all companies but works very well for mine. Keep in mind, I charge monthly not per push.


Thats great in theory (for them) but if I have 2 sidewalk guys and 2 plow operators, pay them 2 rounds worth of money a week so they can stay afloat I'd be dishing out about 3k a week! and be broke by the end of the season. I certainly understand your thoughts and was going to do that for one in particular guy, I hired him on in the fall (worst time for him in our area) but tried to keep him busy and told him I was going to pay him a salary once he's earned my trust and got to know plowing. Trained him to plow and salt, he got familiar with the routes, then we get crushed Christmas Day and gives me one of the worst excuses "my girlfriend's mom has kidney pain and I might have to take her to the hospital, it's more important too me right now that I take care of her" and haven't heard from him since.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is in the same boat. My fix to all of this is next season, we're selling 2 trucks, trading in a backhoe for a CAT 908 sized loader, putting a HLA 10-16 or MetalPless type plow and keeping half of our route. One route is a backhoe and a truck to help out and salt (about a 6 hour route), the other route is another 6 or so hour route with a loader and truck to help out and done! Just sucks about the amount of money I'll be giving up but solidly realize that amount of money is not worth the headaches any more.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Brian Young said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one who is in the same boat. My fix to all of this is next season, we're selling 2 trucks, trading in a backhoe for a CAT 908 sized loader, putting a HLA 10-16 or MetalPless type plow and keeping half of our route. One route is a backhoe and a truck to help out and salt (about a 6 hour route), the other route is another 6 or so hour route with a loader and truck to help out and done! Just sucks about the amount of money I'll be giving up but solidly realize that amount of money is not worth the headaches any more.


Bingo. I always had guys asking why do I run loaders here or there... Because one guy is easier to find then four in trucks... Problem is I've taken on a lot of sidewalks and have plenty of sidewalk equip its just they can profit as much as a lot and usually be done in less time... With these weak Winters might be time to cut back on some work load anyway...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> That is the issue in my opinion. People want to get paid more and more per hour, but the snow and ice industry work appears to be able to charge less and less.


This is true, and at some point it has to change.

More and more contractors are getting out of the industry but this isn't increasing the labor pool. Pay rates HAVE to go up.



EWSplow said:


> That can be blamed on guys coming into the industry, not realizing all costs involved, and /or not being fully legitimate. If someone can do it for less, why pay more?
> Example: I dumped a slow payer last year. I've driven by a few of his properties. He's got 2 people with a blower serving them. One, a two family residential has two driveways on a corner lot. Sure, it can be done with blowers, but what happens after the city plow goes by and the driveways are blocked by a windrow? Returning for cleanup was part of my service. I'm also guessing they have no idea what insurance they have to carry.
> I got to know the tenants (both wealthy single older women) quite well through the years. I'm sure with what they pay in rent they expect a better job than they are getting. That was one of the few properties where the tenants had my phone number.
> As long as there are people doing this kind of work, some of us aren't getting what we should for the service we provide.


I don't believe this is necessarily the case. We picked up a couple new customers this year despite our prices being higher. The issue with the former contractor is their service sucked.

I can't say this for 100% as we aren't bidding against newbies. Other than maybe driveways, but then again, we're giving our pricing and if you like it, fine, if not go with whoever is cheaper. We are bidding against established companies, most of them much larger than we are. And our prices are higher. Service leaves a lot to be desired. Or they're ethically salting too often and pissing the customers off. It's the make it up in volume concept. Add in the not so ethical salt application charges and billing and people get fed up with it.

Still, the pay rates have to go up...or people are going to have to accept crappy service and getting screwed on their salt apps.

I'm still trying to figure stuff out. First or second snowfall, one contractor had 3 people SHOVELING a walk. We were using our SSV across the street. I can't even get 3 applicants that can pass a background and drug test. One guy that applied didn't even have a driver's license...my manager asked him and he says "I decided I like my current job better and am not interested." Seriously you idiot?

PS The contractor with 3 shovelers doing the hand shoveling is the one that lost the 2 contracts because of their crappy service.

PPS The CEO of one of those accounts said their lot had never looked so good. And in all honesty, the newbie who plowed it did a terrible job. Too far from curbs, didn't square off some parking spaces (major pet peeve of mine), buried the bottom of a stairway.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

I’ve had the employee issues of not having enough guys. Now I have guys and work is tough trying to do construction and snow. I think next year I have to finally jump into snow full force. And I’ll have to have a plan to keep my guys full time no matter what so no one jumps ship.

My current theory is to keep a couple T&M jobs with open ended deadlines and snow work. We shall see.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Kvston said:


> I've had the employee issues of not having enough guys. Now I have guys and work is tough trying to do construction and snow. I think next year I have to finally jump into snow full force. And I'll have to have a plan to keep my guys full time no matter what so no one jumps ship.
> 
> My current theory is to keep a couple T&M jobs with open ended deadlines and snow work. We shall see.


Since we're both in about the same situation, what ive done is sub out sidewalks and if i have to pull guys from construction when needed to fill in when multiple rounds are needed. The guys from construction made about time and a half doing snow. This is a good incentive.


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## Cooter24 (Nov 13, 2007)

Kvston said:


> Best laborer I ever had was 67 and had already retired twice


I've had the exact same experience with a twice retired guy. Had no problems showing up and plowing all night. Finally decided he really wanted to retire.


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

okay just stopped for a sandwich and thought check out the site while I eat.
yesterday I started at 2:30 am and got home at 8:30pm stopped to eat half a ham sandwich at noonish lots of work and happy for that but when I read this form last night it was top of brain.
the O.P raised concerns about finding people and the challenges that come with
it, some folks don't want to work and ask you to lie for them to stay home on some form of public assistance, pay me under the table, couple issues there when I was a child broken home bla,bla mom raise us on what was called welfare as a little kid you don't understand until someone tells you it is being on the dole able to look after your self and won't or can't, it is not a desirable condition.
I had a summer guy on the lawns work two weeks night before pay day texts me you are going to pay me cash right? No.
I heard last summer he was hustling lawn work on facebook for cash then calling me when his trimmer broke, sorry to hear that.
this is my 11 season and you have to sort through a lot of people some of the good ones will be with you season after season and some others might not make the day. 
like fishing you have to keep a hook in the water, you can always put the one you don't want back.
rant over, sandwich gone back in the machine.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

leolkfrm said:


> unemployment is not an all or nothing, you can declare a day of work for 12hrs of snow pay, just a little bend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


My wife was on unemployment for a few weeks after she was let go due to covid closure of her program.
She says she could work 32 hours a week before having her UI reduced in MN.
She's pretty sure she's right on this.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

U guys need some recycle company shirts...


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## Cooter24 (Nov 13, 2007)

That's no joke. We've asked for shirts back plenty of times. Just gave a new guy all his winter gear and then he fails to show up or return phone calls 10 hours after he left the shop knowing we were going out.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Wouldn't buy anything for a guy unless he lasts one plow storm. What's the sense in outfitting someone if you don't know if they can shovel


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

FishWestEx wont even let Canadians in on their contests to give away swag...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> FishWestEx wont even let Canadians in on their contests to give away swag...


You can use my address, but then you'd be sayen you lived in Jersey.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Mr.Markus said:


> FishWestEx wont even let Canadians in on their contests to give away swag...


I'll split my hat with you, you can give it to your employee.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> You can use my address, but then you'd be sayen you lived in Jersey.


Where does the New part start....?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Where does the New part start....?


Lets not make this to political, it will attract the squirrels.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

My part timer worked yesterday, open at 8, got there round 9:30. I am realy at a loss with people at this point.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> My part timer worked yesterday, open at 8, got there round 9:30. I am realy at a loss with people at this point.


Coffee break at 10?
I have a guy helping. He got to the job one morning and 5 minutes later asked me if I wanted anything from McDonald's. He went to get a breakfast sandwich.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

I have a kid who is pretty reliable so far working for me but I had to give him the stare yesterday. I pick him up for shoveling shift at 2:45 am. First lot we get to the other guys almost have it done. 8 minutes later we finish and he asks: “uh, can I go inside for a drink? I’m thirsty.” No! Get in the truck and you can get one at the next gas station while you wait for the trucks to finish! 

Next 2 gas station locations were closed! Ha ha ha.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I'll split my hat with you, you can give it to your employee.


He wears enough hats....


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

There’s a good documentary on Netflix called American Factory. Been out for a year or 2. Just watched it the other night....about an old General Motors plant in Dayton that a Chinese glass company took over...the Chinese couldn’t stand the work ethic of the workers...pretty glaring why we are falling behind the rest of the world.


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## Cooter24 (Nov 13, 2007)

fireball said:


> Wouldn't buy anything for a guy unless he lasts one plow storm. What's the sense in outfitting someone if you don't know if they can shovel


This guy had worked all night a week ago for a 7" event. Had him in shop washing trucks for 2 days then no show.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Kvston said:


> I have a kid who is pretty reliable so far working for me but I had to give him the stare yesterday. I pick him up for shoveling shift at 2:45 am. First lot we get to the other guys almost have it done. 8 minutes later we finish and he asks: "uh, can I go inside for a drink? I'm thirsty." No! Get in the truck and you can get one at the next gas station while you wait for the trucks to finish!
> 
> Next 2 gas station locations were closed! Ha ha ha.


It was my 1st week, and you told me I'd be doing interior trim. I figured there'd be water there.


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## Grigs04 (Feb 2, 2020)

Yah it just keeps getting worse and worse every year. It just to damn easy for people to stay home and get paid for nothing. Work force is going to **** and the owners have to deal with it all.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Randall Ave said:


> My part timer worked yesterday, open at 8, got there round 9:30. I am realy at a loss with people at this point.


Is that part time worker one of the posters or posers on Plow Site?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

thelettuceman said:


> Is that part time worker one of the posters or posers on Plow Site?


Nope, he has no interest in anything snow plow related.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> Nope, he has no interest in anything snow plow related.


No... you always say @Mark Oomkes when these situations arise on PS.


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## Cooperthumb (Dec 8, 2008)

I too have in snow removal reduced my services and customer count to whom I service for the same reason. Every state is different but our starting wages in our company is 15.68hr up to 21.00 an hour so I find myself paying more for snow 22-30hr to the guys. But I still get alot of slack from some 
I find the stimulus packages and unemployment in general to be very rewarding for people to sit at home and do nothing. On the flip though its interesting that work comp, short term disability is designed to pay you enough to encourage you go back to work. Not to mention in my state seasonal workers with a call back date do not have to report looking for a job. 
Some hypotheticals I would think about: 
Rule #1 you start an event you finish an event or your getting min wage. Me personally if you scree us on the 2nd or 3rd round or a refreeze check. I could care less how much and when or if your paid. 
2. Be creative. Maybe talking to your guys about banking those hours till they have 40 or more and pay lump sums on amy given week to address tit for tat on losing a week of unemployment. 
3. Make the sidewalk guys feel special (I know I know shouldn't even be a suggestion) but I boost the sidewalk guys up, I bolster what they do as way more important then Jim in plow truck wearing shorts and crocs. 
4. I give those guys hoodies, gloves, hats. 
5. I pay sidewalk crews first. Usually 24 to 72hrs after a storm cash, check. Venmo. 
These guys typically most are lowest on your totem pole if you haven't just hired them. Demographically most are looking for whatever you promised them in their pocket with in the next few days to satisfy whatever bill may be due this week. 

I always try to keep a deep roster of guys I could call on because from a pre salt- to a 3-7inch storm my sidewalk needs can change. I definitely see gone are the days of guys wanting to put in 10,12,18hrs straight to bank a big check.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Good points. 
As for the sidewalk guys being special, they are. I've already had to finish sidewalk routes while plowing because guys were exhausted, or their babysitter had to leave and they had to go home. Its not fun. 

A labor I pulled from construction to do a half dozen walks told me to bank the snow hours for him this winter so he'd have a decent payout at the end of the season. There still are some guys who value that bigger check at the end.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Just a reminder to all... Don’t post any information alluding to how you do business with regards to payroll and or circumventing unemployment rules. These post could be used against you and I would not be surprised if these types of sites are monitored by certain institutions. You just never know these days with how citizens are monitored online.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Cooperthumb said:


> I too have in snow removal reduced my services and customer count to whom I service for the same reason. Every state is different but our starting wages in our company is 15.68hr up to 21.00 an hour so I find myself paying more for snow 22-30hr to the guys. But I still get alot of slack from some
> I find the stimulus packages and unemployment in general to be very rewarding for people to sit at home and do nothing. On the flip though its interesting that work comp, short term disability is designed to pay you enough to encourage you go back to work. Not to mention in my state seasonal workers with a call back date do not have to report looking for a job.
> Some hypotheticals I would think about:
> Rule #1 you start an event you finish an event or your getting min wage. Me personally if you scree us on the 2nd or 3rd round or a refreeze check. I could care less how much and when or if your paid.
> ...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

WIPensFan said:


> Just a reminder to all... Don't post any information alluding to how you do business with regards to payroll and or circumventing unemployment rules. These post could be used against you and I would not be surprised if these types of sites are monitored by certain institutions. You just never know these days with how citizens are monitored online.


No video, it didn't happen.


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## Cooperthumb (Dec 8, 2008)

As stated it was hypotheticals to think about....
But I'm with you.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

It would be pretty easy to discredit the internet as credible evidence...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> It would be pretty easy to discredit the internet as credible evidence...


No sit, there's probably people on here who think I know what I'm doing...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> No sit, there's probably people on here who think I know what I'm doing...


Or Biden won legitimately...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> It would be pretty easy to discredit the internet as credible evidence...


Tell that to Dateline.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Cooperthumb said:


> Rule #1 you start an event you finish an event or your getting min wage. Me personally if you scree us on the 2nd or 3rd round or a refreeze check. I could care less how much and when or if your paid.
> 4. I give those guys hoodies, gloves, hats.
> 5. I pay sidewalk crews first. Usually 24 to 72hrs after a storm cash, check. Venmo.


Not trying to bust your ballz, personally I don't care what you do, but this is hardly hypothetical. Your banking of hours is also a no-no, that is if you're a legit outfit. Plenty of people out there running under the radar. Just don't pretend you're one if you're really another.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

My guy gets paid under the table....in the seat cushions....maybe the fountain...
Change..he gets paid change!


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## Cooperthumb (Dec 8, 2008)

It was "hypotheticals to think about" 
Sorry for the grammer mistakes of speaking in the 1st person. 
Not sure if I'm a legit outfit or not 
But I do deliver the services I charge for and collect upon the services rendered.. 
Course you could spend all your time crossing your I's and dotting T's 
3 months out of the year I make the white stuff disappear curb to curb


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

On this side of the border banking of hours is legit as long as your paying their taxes on a weekly or bi weekly basis, however your payroll is structured. 
There are companies around these parts who don't do snow, bank hours and pay them out over the slow months. Of course the employee has to agree to these terms.


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## dmacleo (Mar 11, 2017)

Mr.Markus said:


> My guy gets paid under the table....in the seat cushions....maybe the fountain...
> Change..he gets paid change!


gift cards. always good for something


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

^ what he said


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

DeVries said:


> On this side of the border banking of hours is legit as long as your paying their taxes on a weekly or bi weekly basis, however your payroll is structured.
> There are companies around these parts who don't do snow, bank hours and pay them out over the slow months. Of course the employee has to agree to these terms.


Wish we could do that here. It would solve a lot of problems.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

dmacleo said:


> gift cards. always good for something


Good thing I just redeemed my Siteone points on some from Lowes...


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Maybe these Guatemalans rushing in might help with this problem? Most of them just want to work. They certainly have nothing going on at home and are severely oppressed. If they are hard-working and honest who would object...just curious.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Luther said:


> Maybe these Guatemalans rushing in might help with this problem? Most of them just want to work. They certainly have nothing going on at home and are severely oppressed. If they are hard-working and honest who would object...just curious.


Phaze 2 of the Mexico Wall, is the Southern Mexico Wall.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Luther said:


> Maybe these Guatemalans rushing in might help with this problem? Most of them just want to work. They certainly have nothing going on at home and are severely oppressed. If they are hard-working and honest who would object...just curious.


They need to work on their problems at home.
Why do we want people who wount work on their own country.

Maybe they can make trump their supreme dictator ?

Their also being sent here by their govt.
To force the issue that we are no longer sending then $$$$$.

Real refugees consist of women, children &
Families, not a mob of men...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Luther said:


> Maybe these Guatemalans rushing in might help with this problem? Most of them just want to work. They certainly have nothing going on at home and are severely oppressed. If they are hard-working and honest who would object...just curious.


*newusflag*


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> They need to work on their problems at home.
> Why do we want people who wount work on their own country.


So, a Guatemalan who lays paving stones for a living isn't a worthwhile worker because he didn't contribute to overthrowing his government?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

cwren2472 said:


> So, a Guatemalan who lays paving stones for a living isn't a worthwhile worker because he didn't contribute to overthrowing his government?


Its the new resume musthave...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> Its the new resume musthave...


If he _had_ tried to overthrow his government, someone would have accused him of secretly being ANTIFA trying to make the right look bad...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> So, a Guatemalan who lays paving stones for a living isn't a worthwhile worker because he didn't contribute to overthrowing his government?


Why did you hire a foreigner over an American ?

He doesn't have to overthrow his government to make his country a better place .
the reason they're coming here is because their government is protesting our government.we cut off their free money.
These people are coming here because they are no longer getting free money, they want to come here and get the free money right from the tap,

I blame the contractor who hires a
Undocumented foreigner.

Ps The days of the land of milk and honey are gone the cow dried up and the bees died


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> Why did you hire a foreigner over an American ?


I tried to find one willing to work












Hydromaster said:


> the reason they're coming here is because their government is protesting our government. we cut off their free money.


So, they haven't been coming here for decades? Or they have been protesting for decades?



Hydromaster said:


> These people are coming here because they are no longer getting free us money, they want to come here and get the free money right from the tap,


You think the kind of guy in Guatemala that lays paving stones was getting a personal check from the U.S. Treasury?



Hydromaster said:


> I blame the contractor who hires a
> Undocumented foreigner.


Not his parents?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Yeah, they have been coming here and we gave them free money to say home.I mean a big bribe& how is that working out? 

What happens when you’re used to getting money for free and it stops?
Will you work for it? Naw , 
Take a hike to America where they give away everything for free do the poor foreign refugees, free housing, free food, free money free clothes, free education and they still don’t have to work.... 

There Not coming here looking for work they’re coming here for the free stuff. 
No matter what A few might be telling you.

Why would they work when they been getting our hand out for free?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> What happens when you're used to getting money for free and it stops?
> Will you work for it? Naw ,
> 
> Why would they work when they been getting our hand out for free?


Guess we'll find out when the extra unemployment bonuses finally dry up


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> Guess we'll find out when the extra unemployment bonuses finally dry up


Big difference to qualify for unemployment at one time you had to be here and worked for it.

I mean a contributing member of our society .


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Is Montana flush with Latinos eating free meals in their free houses wearing their free clothes while going to college for free?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> Is Montana flush with Latinos eating free meals in their free houses wearing their free clothes while going to college for free?


What does the state have to do with it?
Or maybe it's the culture of the people here.

You Give them too much credit .
why would they migrate from California ?
why would they go any further than they have to to get their free stuff.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> What does the state have to do with it?


Well, I only ask because the people who seem to think that every Latino is a leech living off the American dole seems to be living someplace where the closest they actually get to a Latino is seeing a White kid with a tan at the Taco Bell 90 minutes away.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

cwren2472 said:


> Well, I only ask because the people who seem to think that every Latino is a leech living off the American dole seems to be living someplace where the closest they actually get to a Latino is seeing a White kid with a tan at the Taco Bell 90 minutes away.


I'm talking about this mob of illegal aliens who are coming from Guatemala.
Im not discussing People entering our country legally or people whose families who have been here for generations who are Latino.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> I'm talking about this mob of illegal aliens who are coming from Guatemala.
> Im not discussing People entering our country legally or people whose families who have been here for generations who are Latino.


So you're not talking about the illegals that are a drag on our health care system and have not contributed one cent into our country yet, but have babies here that are now considered citizens...?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So you're not talking about the illegals that are a drag on our health care system and have not contributed one cent into our country yet, but have babies here that are now considered citizens...?


They all can be deported too
No anchor babies .

Times have changed America is full.
We no longer need to evslave foreigners to
build our rail roads or to mine .
The 1700's-1800's and the 1900's are over.

If you wish to come to our country do so legally and then be a contributor not a leech .


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## BadMechanic (Dec 21, 2020)

Living the Americano dream


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

cwren2472 said:


> Is Montana flush with Latinos eating free meals in their free houses wearing their free clothes while going to college for free?


There here in Jersey. In the next town ya can't swing a dead cat without hitting an illegal.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Randall Ave said:


> There here in Jersey. In the next town ya can't swing a dead cat without hitting an illegal.


Well, there's your problem. Stop swinging those dead cats.


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## Snow Business 1 (Oct 15, 2012)

WIPensFan said:


> Here in Southern WI it just doesn't snow like it used to. At least that's my perception anyway. You may have guys all lined up, but if it doesn't snow for 3 weeks at a time they are moving on to another job. I'm talking about times when people aren't making unemployment plus $300-$600 extra.


This is my exact problem and why you can't train them to early in the Fall. If it doesn't snow soon after the training they forget everything you told them and they lose interest in the idea of making money in snow.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> Maybe these Guatemalans rushing in might help with this problem? Most of them just want to work. They certainly have nothing going on at home and are severely oppressed. If they are hard-working and honest who would object...just curious.


https://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/michigan/
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com...mployment-michigan-residents-2021/4127882001/
https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2021/01/14/unemployment-rises-across-us-and-in-michigan/
Or maybe, we stop paying people to sit on their asses and collect unemployment "benefits". Especially that extra $300.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

that is under a special shared hours program the employer has to file for


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

I guess if you swing a live cat you end up with dizzy cats. I would have never thought that illegal immigrants are attracted to swinging dead cats but y o u learn something new everyday.

We used to place ads in the local colleges newspapers. Wanted sidewalk shoveled. $40.00 per hour 4 or 6 hour shifts call 666-666-6666. Always had plenty of applicants. Also talk to priests/ministers at church


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

fireball said:


> I guess if you swing a live cat you end up with dizzy cats. I would have never thought that illegal immigrants are attracted to swinging dead cats but y o u learn something new everyday.
> 
> We used to place ads in the local colleges newspapers. Wanted sidewalk shoveled. $40.00 per hour 4 or 6 hour shifts call 666-666-6666. Always had plenty of applicants. Also talk to priests/ministers at church


$40 / hour to shovel walks, as an employee?


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

fireball said:


> I guess if you swing a live cat you end up with dizzy cats. I would have never thought that illegal immigrants are attracted to swinging dead cats but y o u learn something new everyday.
> 
> We used to place ads in the local colleges newspapers. Wanted sidewalk shoveled. $40.00 per hour 4 or 6 hour shifts call 666-666-6666. Always had plenty of applicants. Also talk to priests/ministers at church


Did you pay the priests/ministers directly? Or just put more in the collection plate on sundays?


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## Lockman75 (Nov 21, 2020)

cwren2472 said:


> Guess we'll find out when the extra unemployment bonuses finally dry up


............ I think that I read that they are not comin' here to work, they're comin' for the free stuff. I'm surmissing that the new admin will find a way to extend the extra unemployment bonuses for quit a long time . One is supposed to be a citizen & get laid off from their job , thru no fault of their own, after working for a previous period of time set by that State. I also surmise these criteria are'nt always adhered to , in certain States.
No human will work , if they are enabled not to , in some shape or form.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

fireball said:


> I guess if you swing a live cat you end up with dizzy cats. I would have never thought that illegal immigrants are attracted to swinging dead cats but y o u learn something new everyday.
> 
> We used to place ads in the local colleges newspapers. Wanted sidewalk shoveled. $40.00 per hour 4 or 6 hour shifts call 666-666-6666. Always had plenty of applicants. Also talk to priests/ministers at church


Also, did the priests/ministers object to the phone number at all?


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## Lockman75 (Nov 21, 2020)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Also, did the priests/ministers object to the phone number at all?


I see what you did there............


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Mr.Markus said:


> The problem is the idea of selling is lost on a whole generation. Sales today is about finding out what they are paying and beating it. Telling them what they want to hear and making the sale. Performance doesn't matter anymore, its a lot of effort to make a contract holder meet a spec, and most managers arent motivated to care, they met budget by hiring the cheaper guy.


This is the way these management companies get business. They tell the large retail corporations etc what they want to hear and never meet spec. No one calls them out when the store isn't serviced by opening time or city sidewalks are not cleared. Nobody cares anymore. Its all about the dollar and they can afford to be that way because all liability is on the contractor.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

dlcs said:


> This is the way these management companies get business. They tell the large retail corporations etc what they want to hear and never meet spec. No one calls them out when the store isn't serviced by opening time or city sidewalks are not cleared. Nobody cares anymore. Its all about the dollar and they can afford to be that way because all liability is on the contractor.


Which is why one of the initial 2 questions axed is:

1) Will the specs be adhered to?

The second is:

2) Is this based strictly on price?

Because I'm pricing according to specs, I am not going to lose my butt when someone decides the specs will be enforced for a year or month or whatever.

I am not awarded a lot of work this way and I don't care.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Lockman75 said:


> I see what you did there............


Had a priest / ethical salting one I was working on but the 6s were an easier play.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

To the Original posters conundrum, You have to figure out new ways to provide your labor as a service to others.

The world has changed dramatically in the last 12 months. One must brainstorm past the likes of government and institutions. They are not your boss, your God, your parent. Stop contracting with them.

You must change your own protocols to provide that labor and service to others. Figure it out. Get compensated up front for the entire winter season. Do your homework. Take a risk. Do a gamble. Then you will find it easier to gain hired help with those humans knowing they will be compensated every week handsomely wether it snows or not. Then create with them a community based financial system to adhere to going forward so you can all get on the same page. Treat them as equals. They will hopefully want to share and reap the benefits of a strong business for the foreseeable future. Make their time with your business worthwhile together. They will not generally leave you. Stability and a future work wonders on a humans psyche.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So we had a great guy with us for about 2 months. Normal and decent, hardworking, no drama. 

A week ago Sunday he calls and says he broke up with his GF and moved back home, about an hour SW of GR. He isn't going to drive back and forth, etc. 

1) Thanks for the 2 week notice. 
2) Then he asks if he's eligible for unemployment. Ummmm, no, you resigned, we still have work for you. I told him, the CFO told him, our GM told him. 

Yup, got a notice yesterday that he filed. 

Very frustrating. And in this environment, he'll probably get it even though we are going to fight it.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Very frustrating. And in this environment, he'll probably get it even though we are going to fight it.


Employee to Arbiter: "Sir, I had a work in a very hostile work environment."
Arbiter: "Do you have any evidence of this?"
Employee: "Absolutely. Just check out my boss on this site called 'Plowsite'..."
... 3 minutes later...
Arbiter: "UI Granted."


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Employee to Arbiter: "Sir, I had a work in a very hostile work environment."
> Arbiter: "Do you have any evidence of this?"
> Employee: "Absolutely. Just check out my boss on this site called 'Plowsite'..."
> ... 3 minutes later...
> Arbiter: "UI Granted."


All those posts have been deleted.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So we had a great guy with us for about 2 months. Normal and decent, hardworking, no drama.
> 
> A week ago Sunday he calls and says he broke up with his GF and moved back home, about an hour SW of GR. He isn't going to drive back and forth, etc.
> 
> ...


He'll get it... had that happen a few times too. Always got UI. Total BS.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So we had a great guy with us for about 2 months. Normal and decent, hardworking, no drama.
> 
> A week ago Sunday he calls and says he broke up with his GF and moved back home, about an hour SW of GR. He isn't going to drive back and forth, etc.
> 
> ...


Had a guy work for me 5 weeks last March/April. Fired him for drug use...get a notice the other day stating he told them he worked for me from March of 2019 until October 2020. A YEAR AND A HALF!!!... I was supposed to upload documentation proving MY dates were correct as opposed to his...wtf. Ok. Upload his final pay stub. Website/button won't allow it....impossible to get anyone on the phone to rectify things...I'm sure he'll be approved....covid.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So we had a great guy with us for about 2 months. Normal and decent, hardworking, no drama.
> 
> A week ago Sunday he calls and says he broke up with his GF and moved back home, about an hour SW of GR. He isn't going to drive back and forth, etc.
> 
> ...


Depending on how long ago he started, he won't be drawing from your UC, it'll be his previous employer. 
Sounds like he's going to have to look for a job in his new location.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So we had a great guy with us for about 2 months. Normal and decent, hardworking, no drama.
> 
> A week ago Sunday he calls and says he broke up with his GF and moved back home, about an hour SW of GR. He isn't going to drive back and forth, etc.
> 
> ...


Whaaaa...










LMAO....


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

prezek said:


> Had a guy work for me 5 weeks last March/April. Fired him for drug use...get a notice the other day stating he told them he worked for me from March of 2019 until October 2020. A YEAR AND A HALF!!!... I was supposed to upload documentation proving MY dates were correct as opposed to his...wtf. Ok. Upload his final pay stub. Website/button won't allow it....impossible to get anyone on the phone to rectify things...I'm sure he'll be approved....covid.


The CEO finally talked to someone live... It was nice to hear... They were inquiring on one that quit back in June. We said no he just quit we had and have work for him...

Lady said well we'll cancel his benefits and stated he might be responsible for paying back everything from that date now... I can only hope! Not that its coming to me but it's the whole principal...


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Ajlawn1 said:


> The CEO finally talked to someone live... It was nice to hear... They were inquiring on one that quit back in June. We said no he just quit we had and have work for him...
> 
> Lady said well we'll cancel his benefits and stated he might be responsible for paying back everything from that date now... I can only hope! Not that its coming to me but it's the whole principal...


There is a "fraud" line set up, but didn't venture in that direction...maybe I should've but don't need to get dragged into anything. If they can't get their act together for an employer who tried to get documentation to them, they can deal with it.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

prezek said:


> There is a "fraud" line set up, but didn't venture in that direction...maybe I should've but don't need to get dragged into anything. If they can't get their act together for an employer who tried to get documentation to them, they can deal with it.


You should... Get them off if not warranted... Hits your insurance...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Whaaaa...
> 
> View attachment 212596
> 
> ...


What was the emergency...?


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Whaaaa...
> 
> View attachment 212596
> 
> ...


Hey Gabe, it me Juan. Funny you should mention it. Im in Mexico. Just need an address and I'll pick you up on my way back.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> Hey Gabe, it me Juan. Funny you should mention it. Im in Mexico. Just need an address and I'll pick you up on my way back. Bring five of your friends too...


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

You guys are triggering my anxiety with these crappy employees posts! I need to go to my safe space... close proximity to fridge and tv.


----------



## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> All those posts have been deleted.


Lemme guess, they're all at the bottom of the lake, too?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Whaaaa...
> 
> View attachment 212596
> 
> ...


Probably just going to a wedding....


----------



## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

WIPensFan said:


> He'll get it... had that happen a few times too. Always got UI. Total BS.


All he has to do is say he got covid...
Can't be denied then


----------



## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Ajlawn1 said:


> You should... Get them off if not warranted... Hits your insurance...


Yeah. Unfortunately I'm always in the highest bracket the state puts out. I can't be dinged any more. Just infuriating that the system is so broken.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm pretty convinced that no matter what we say, he'll get it...and it will count against us. 

Not that it matters, we're all going to be paying more for this idiotic policy of giving people money not to work after forcing them not to work.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Also, did the priests/ministers object to the phone number at all?


My BiL's race number is 333, Half Evil . Drag,Demo,Dirt


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

dlcs said:


> This is the way these management companies get business. They tell the large retail corporations etc what they want to hear and never meet spec. No one calls them out when the store isn't serviced by opening time or city sidewalks are not cleared. Nobody cares anymore. Its all about the dollar and they can afford to be that way because all liability is on the contractor.


If they aren't holding the contractor to the specs,then they have plenty of liability.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm pretty convinced that no matter what we say, he'll get it...and it will count against us.


I've heard that as long as you have an employee handbook, you're all set


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> I've heard that as long as you have an employee handbook, you're all set


Think he's screwed since this won't pass for an employee handbook....


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)




----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 212644


Immunity???


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 212644


Colin???


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Immunity???


Sure.


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Immunity???


From stupid, lazy people.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

So I have a guy early 30's that has plowed for me for the past 10 years off and on. He does have a real job so comes in the a.m. for about 4-5 hours running a truck...

He knows I need people says his 19 year old nephew needs a job... So here is a perfect example of today's youth. I have him on a pretty big property running a Snowrator. Seems capable as I had him test his skills at first on a Zspray.

Last week he says did you talk to Robie? (His uncle) I said yeah why? Oh did he tell you I fell off the machine... No. Yeah it ran over me and I had to wait till it stopped to lift it off... After hearing that I'm thinking I hope there's a camera around so I can see this... 

Talked to his uncle later that day and he says... No I haven't talked to him in awhile actually... SMH...

So today he worked from midnight till about 6-7am. I got to the property with a second load of salt at that time and seen his truck was gone. I call him to say hey if you're still close by I have your check. No answer. Texted about an hour ago asking when checks would be ready... I said I called you earlier and you didn't answer or even bother to call back...

So I tell him I'm at the shop, swing by I have it. He shows up and limps over man I'm sore... I said why what's up? Oh man I fell off the machine and pulled my groin, then the shovel end hit me in the beans...

Needless to say he does ok until the A team can get there to finish up correctly. I mean he just takes off whenever he thinks it's good enough. Dude I will pay you to stay there and work! Tidy up everything you're doing and let's progress so you can handle the whole property and I don't have to bring others in to finish. I will pay you!!! 

It's sad as he does enough to be helpful but the falling of the machine BS has me worried as I have no clue if it's true or not. Wondering if I have some workers comp claim in my future...


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

NOW you want video!! 
Sounds about right on the workmans comp claim coming... employees are frustrating.


----------



## dmacleo (Mar 11, 2017)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So I have a guy early 30's that has plowed for me for the past 10 years off
> 
> It's sad as he does enough to be helpful but the falling of the machine BS has me worried as I have no clue if it's true or not. Wondering if I have some workers comp claim in my future...


do you REALLY wonder ??? been on both ends of comp issue a few times. document every damned thing from now on including stuff like this where he said he talked so uncle and he didn't. also the leaving before job done.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So I have a guy early 30's that has plowed for me for the past 10 years off and on. He does have a real job so comes in the a.m. for about 4-5 hours running a truck...
> 
> He knows I need people says his 19 year old nephew needs a job... So here is a perfect example of today's youth. I have him on a pretty big property running a Snowrator. Seems capable as I had him test his skills at first on a Zspray.
> 
> ...


Check the kids social media stuff, he's probably posting videos of him doing wheelies on your equipment which is bucking him off.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So I have a guy early 30's that has plowed for me for the past 10 years off and on. He does have a real job so comes in the a.m. for about 4-5 hours running a truck...
> 
> He knows I need people says his 19 year old nephew needs a job... So here is a perfect example of today's youth. I have him on a pretty big property running a Snowrator. Seems capable as I had him test his skills at first on a Zspray.
> 
> ...


He sounds like a liability. I get it, any help is better than none. 
Long story short, gotta get rid of guys who is prone to injuries. Some people have a history...
It takes a couple years to get your modifier down after claims.


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> He sounds like a liability. I get it, any help is better than none.
> Long story short, gotta get rid of guys who is prone to injuries. Some people have a history...
> It takes a couple years to get your modifier down after claims.


I interviewed a guy on Wednesday that was recommended by a head hunter I have looking for me. On paper the guy looked great but aboot an hour into the interview he said a few things that didn't sync up with what his resume showed. 
Then the guy starts telling me his life story which included having the Covid in November. I ask, how was that for you. He told me it hit him hard, was in ICU for 3weeks and has lung damage. He said he gets winded quick and suffers from fatigue. I told him for being fairly young and by all appearances in pretty good shape I was surprised he had it that bad. He told me he has a immunity deficiency and been a smoker for aboot 25yrs. 
So besides being an imposture with a zippy resume wanting top wage the guy has health issue.........


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

BUFF said:


> Check the kids social media stuff, he's probably posting videos of him doing wheelies on your equipment which is bucking him off.


I'll get our resident video guru @WIPensFan on it I'm sure he's ran across them searching out Snowrator vids...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> I get it, any help is better than none.


Especially ones that do come in and at least work at 10° with 30 mph winds...


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BUFF said:


> I interviewed a guy on Wednesday that was recommended by a head hunter I have looking for me. On paper the guy looked great but aboot an hour into the interview he said a few things that didn't sync up with what his resume showed.
> Then the guy starts telling me his life story which included having the Covid in November. I ask, how was that for you. He told me it hit him hard, was in ICU for 3weeks and has lung damage. He said he gets winded quick and suffers from fatigue. I told him for being fairly young and by all appearances in pretty good shape I was surprised he had it that bad. He told me he has a immunity deficiency and been a smoker for aboot 25yrs.
> So besides being an imposture with a zippy resume wanting top wage the guy has health issue.........
> View attachment 213142


I see a discrimination suit in the making.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Especially ones that do come in and at least work at 10° with 30 mph winds...


I know a kid experienced at loading quick cubes if you need someone. His contract does require a break for recess and a 1 SnackPack per shift though.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> I know a kid experienced at loading quick cubes if you need someone. His contract does require a break for recess and a 1 SnackPack per shift though.


Is his name Billy?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Especially ones that do come in and at least work at 10° with 30 mph winds...


I had to bite my tongue look the other way when the client who sweeps the salt off "suggested that of we are too busy to get to her in time, she might have to find someone who isn't so busy. 
Ive had a couple clients not sign another year and get someone else, only to come back the next year. 
In her case and another, it was a few years ago. It wasn't because of our service, it was because they wanted to use the guy they use for summer services. In her case. The guy did OK until the 1st big storm, and I had to finish out that year.


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

EWSplow said:


> He sounds like a liability. I get it, any help is better than none.
> Long story short, gotta get rid of guys who is prone to injuries. Some people have a history...
> It takes a couple years to get your modifier down after claims.


Friend of mine owns a tree service. 
He hired this guy. I used to work with his mom. She worked in the bakery where I did. 
She filed a WC claim against the bakery for a back injury because her work station was too low. 
Her and her husband are the 3rd generation working his grandparents moving company.
She's been moving furniture for 30 years and driving semi hauling it. But she hurt her back at the bakery? 
Right.
Anywhoo
Friend calls his insurance to add the new guy.
They call him back and saw, " you can't hire ____".
My friend says. " I know he can't drive, he doesn't have a license ".
Insurance man, "No, you can't hire him,we will cancel your policy. He's too big a liability."


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> I had to bite my tongue look the other way when the client who sweeps the salt off "suggested that of we are too busy to get to her in time, she might have to find someone who isn't so busy.


Next time you should stop there while laying on the horn yelling some choice obscenities...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

EWSplow said:


> I had to bite my tongue look the other way when the client who sweeps the salt off "suggested that of we are too busy to get to her in time, she might have to find someone who isn't so busy.
> Ive had a couple clients not sign another year and get someone else, only to come back the next year.
> In her case and another, it was a few years ago. It wasn't because of our service, it was because they wanted to use the guy they use for summer services. In her case. The guy did OK until the 1st big storm, and I had to finish out that year.


I need some sleep. Intermingled 2 different threads


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> I see a discrimination suit in the making.


He's under qualified for the money he's looking for. When the head Hunter quizzes me on how the interview went I'll tell him that and the guy is worth aboot $9.00 / hrs less.
The guy took a application packet to fill oot at home rather than filling it oot in the reception area when he was in on Wednesday. I still haven't gotten it from him.
To many red flags starting with over selling his ability's.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

When their younger shaming works too, 
Im not talking belligerent shaming, a comment like " is the machine too much for you too soon?" " I dont want you to hurt yourself, theyre not for everybody"
Follow up with a positive " you did good today for your first time out but everything needs to be perfect before you leave the job spend some time and look around."
When I was a kid starting for other companies it was always the boss that gave positive but constructive ways of teling me to do better that I worked the hardest to impress.


----------



## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Mr.Markus said:


> When their younger shaming works too,
> Im not talking belligerent shaming, a comment like " is the machine too much for you too soon?" " I dont want you to hurt yourself, theyre not for everybody"
> Follow up with a positive " you did good today for your first time out but everything needs to be perfect before you leave the job spend some time and look around."
> When I was a kid starting for other companies it was always the boss that gave positive but constructive ways of teling me to do better that I worked the hardest to impress.


Does the boss still give you positive and constructive feedback?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

No I dont like this one... he's mean. Life was better when I was a kid...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> When their younger shaming works too,
> Im not talking belligerent shaming, a comment like " is the machine too much for you too soon?" " I dont want you to hurt yourself, theyre not for everybody"
> Follow up with a positive " you did good today for your first time out but everything needs to be perfect before you leave the job spend some time and look around."
> When I was a kid starting for other companies it was always the boss that gave positive but constructive ways of teling me to do better that I worked the hardest to impress.


Yeah I've been actually been pretty positive with him... Not just cuz I need him, but I want him to do a quality job... The other night he was actually getting off the machine and shoveling some corners etc... that the machine couldn't get at... And I was very responsive to that as it only improves our overall imagine in the end...

I tried to make sure he understood how important it is to shovel out all the rear doors, fire exits etc...

I think sometimes you can see it in a person and if not I'm not sure if that's something that can be instilled or not...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Most of them end up distilled...


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

EWSplow said:


> I need some sleep. Intermingled 2 different threads


I was trying to find this post, it caught my interest.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ice-sage said:


> To the Original posters conundrum, You have to figure out new ways to provide your labor as a service to others.
> 
> The world has changed dramatically in the last 12 months. One must brainstorm past the likes of government and institutions. They are not your boss, your God, your parent. Stop contracting with them.
> 
> You must change your own protocols to provide that labor and service to others. Figure it out. Get compensated up front for the entire winter season. Do your homework. Take a risk. Do a gamble. Then you will find it easier to gain hired help with those humans knowing they will be compensated every week handsomely wether it snows or not. Then create with them a community based financial system to adhere to going forward so you can all get on the same page. Treat them as equals. They will hopefully want to share and reap the benefits of a strong business for the foreseeable future. Make their time with your business worthwhile together. They will not generally leave you. Stability and a future work wonders on a humans psyche.


God, I wanna live in your world... It's sounds like a business utopia.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

WIPensFan said:


> God, I wanna live in your world... It's sounds like a business utopia.


Only if they have s'mores around a fire and sing songs at the end of the day......


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

LMFAO...

You seriously can't make this crap up, It's like Days of our lLves or something...

I pretty much responded just stay home we've got way more work than 3 hours of work...

His Snowrator days may be over...


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> LMFAO...
> 
> You seriously can't make this crap up, It's like Days of our lLves or something...
> 
> ...


What???


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> LMFAO...
> 
> You seriously can't make this crap up, It's like Days of our lLves or something...
> 
> ...


Yep...done!


----------



## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow...AJ...you don't supply proper ppe....man I'd hate to work for you......


----------



## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

prezek said:


> Yeah. Just infuriating that the system is so broken.


Then change the system you chose to play in. Or stop playing in a system you do not like.

The choice to contract with whomever one chooses to is a pretty fabulous thing.



WIPensFan said:


> God, I wanna live in your world... It's sounds like a business utopia.


In my opinion, god isn't going to help you. But continue to seek solace in what ever you like. By the way, I/we are just as stuck on this rock as you are. Same rock, same world. Doing the right things is pretty painless. Choosing who to "contract" with is one key to changing your world. "Free will" one might say. Use it.

Utopia, socialism, whatever words someone else made up(by the way the meanings and definitions have been skewered multiple times) just to plot things in your head to deceive, devise and disturb plus create fear in you(look at how everyone on this forum uses them) really will take a toll on you. Jealousy will crush you. Don't let that happen.

An example. If you want to use the word socialism, how about the good in the word: everyone contributing to such a supposed system/word/construct, by the fruit of their time and labor, can share *equally* all that is gained and prosper together from it.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ice-sage said:


> Then change the system you chose to play in. Or stop playing in a system you do not like.
> 
> The choice to contract with whomever one chooses to is a pretty fabulous thing.
> 
> ...


Now I know why you are the "Sage" Keep up the good fight brother, I find your positivity refreshing...
Peace out.:usflag:


----------



## demetrios007 (Sep 30, 2004)

Socialism would work great if it were a bubble of just the guys posting on this thread. We all hustle and work harder than 99% of the people out there. We would all prosper equally for sure in that world......problem lies in the ones who stay in bed all day amd get up to put their hands out for the handout they are ENTITLED to by our hard work. I bust my ass daily and I dont want to drop crumbs on the floor for anybody to nibble on....get your own sandwich


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

demetrios007 said:


> Socialism would work great if it were a bubble of just the guys posting on this thread.


Except the folks posting in this thread generally espouse wanting slave labor...I mean employees. In the years I have been reading here or since when I first posted here, not once have I laid eyes upon a post(except for my own) actually saying or it meaning it, and definitely putting it into practice. That is why you have these type of "employee" threads endlessly since the inception of this forum. It is the only world they have been taught. And they will try to hang someone like me who thinks and acts outside of their subjegation to their perceived norms and teachings. Disgusting.

It really is too bad people can't look in the mirror and change themselves first. Imagine the power we the people would have and are supposed to have if just us snow service folks got together and told the corps we rely on enough is enough. Stop with the half a$$ engineering, planned engineered obselescence and so on and so forth. It takes an act of god/show of force/dollar votes to even get these corps to take our advice let alone listen or try to engineer something better that we use on a continual basis. To economize, to create efficiency, to go forth with sustainability, the corps track record shows the tiny incremental steps they take. All due to profit.

The system must change. Otherwise all you private snow service guys will soon be begging the govco and states and municipalites to bail you out as well. Trust me, they have a plan for that. You will own and control nothing. You will run your buisness their way and you will like the crumbs they give you. Does everyone here want that? Seems to be the concensus.


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## demetrios007 (Sep 30, 2004)

Sure it sounds great as you put it. Tell me one thing....all the people out there who do not want to work, what do we do with them? I'm talking outside snow work as it's a few percent of my income. I dont know where you are, I'm in NJ, but if I gave you a tour of a town I own a building in, you would puke in your mouth when you saw first hand our governmental assistance first hand


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

That is a very gargantuan conundrum you brought up @demetrios007. Definitely no easy answer for it. You can look and find a lot of private forums that brainstorm about that exact issue. And no none of those forums are political/governmental/corporate as those institutions can not and never will fix anything. They are incapable of such.

I can put my finger on a few things that must change. Monetary system must go. The entire way we educate our own children must go. The monolithic media and news system must be ground up and changed for the people. Those are just the tip of the iceberg ones.

Remember that the government does not have any money to give. They only steal credit wether by deceit or force or people's stupidity to contract with them. So in essence today's monopoly of government must go, or in another fashion, we must make a new one and change the rules. We are allowed to do that not only by the people's contract with it, but by life itself.

A stygmergic society would be a great start to the benefit of all.


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Wrong thread.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Just to be clear, my last post was edited without my knowledge. 
carry on...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ice-sage said:


> That is a very gargantuan conundrum you brought up @demetrios007. Definitely no easy answer for it. You can look and find a lot of private forums that brainstorm about that exact issue. And no none of those forums are political/governmental/corporate as those institutions can not and never will fix anything. They are incapable of such.
> 
> I can put my finger on a few things that must change. Monetary system must go. The entire way we educate our own children must go. The monolithic media and news system must be ground up and changed for the people. Those are just the tip of the iceberg ones.
> 
> ...


You post read as if they are out of the play book for 2030.


----------



## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

@BUFF

Mind explaining what that is supposed to mean? And maybe try to add something to the conversation? Don't be scared, say what is on your mind.


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ice-sage said:


> @BUFF
> 
> Mind explaining what that is supposed to mean? And maybe try to add something to the conversation? Don't be scared, say what is on your mind.


Not at all...here's the Readers Digest version, 2030 is a global initiative that's been going on for a while. It was put together by a Global think tank with the goal to make the world a better place for all and to level the playing field by 2030.

Here's a video that gives a better explanation

https://www.ted.com/talks/michael_green_how_we_can_make_the_world_a_better_place_by_2030


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

WIPensFan said:


> Just to be clear, my last post was edited without my knowledge.
> carry on...


You agreed to the terms of service. Apparently quite a few of you actually did not read or comprehended one of these exact issues we were talking about.

And don't you worry little fella, everything anyone or thing does on this wonderful public intranet, wether it is changed, deleted etc, is already archived in its original state the moment you clicked "post".


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ice-sage said:


> You agreed to the terms of service. Apparently quite a few of you actually did not read or comprehended one of these exact issues we were talking about.
> 
> And don't you worry little fella, everything anyone or thing does on this wonderful public intranet, wether it is changed, deleted etc, is already archived in its original state the moment you clicked "post".


Yep, you are correct yet again wise Sage.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

My part timer can't work tomorrow, it's his food shopping day.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Ice-sage said:


> You agreed to the terms of service. Apparently quite a few of you actually did not read or comprehended one of these exact issues we were talking about.
> 
> And don't you worry little fella, everything anyone or thing does on this wonderful public intranet, wether it is changed, deleted etc, is already archived in its original state the moment you clicked "post".


You sound like you're a lot of "fun" at parties...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> My part timer can't work tomorrow, it's his food shopping day.


We all have routines in varying degrees.....
I have a friend that's 62yo and never been married. In the 40yrs I've know him he's never had a girlfriend. Sunday is mass followed up by laundry, Monday night is grocery shopping, Tuesday is open, Wednesday night is mass, Thursday night is house cleaning, Friday is open and Saturday is vehicle wash day.
He also wears a green tee shirt on payday, don't know why but he does.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Buff, when does your friend have time to shovel snow?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Ice-sage said:


> You agreed to the terms of service. Apparently quite a few of you actually did not read or comprehended one of these exact issues we were talking about.
> 
> And don't you worry little fella, everything anyone or thing does on this wonderful public intranet, wether it is changed, deleted etc, is already archived in its original state the moment you clicked "post".


Hey there buddy,
Let a littel sunshine in..

FYI. It can also disappear forever just as easily. Archive files don't matter


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

fireball said:


> Buff, when does your friend have time to shovel snow?


Good question, but he seems to manage.
He quit his machining trade job a few years ago and moved back to central North Dakota to the family farm. He's now a letter carrier for the post office in town.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

BossPlow2010 said:


> You sound like you're a lot of "fun" at parties...


I don't "party". Do you assume everyone parties?

Back on topic. Because of "partying", take a gander how many "employees" in the U.S. alone won't be showing up to work tomorrow because of too much partying for an entertainment sport? But it is okay with you all correct? You know, because the the non partiers will just suck it up and work twice as hard to make up for the incompetent "employee" no showing.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Contract says,(you know from a liberial union.)
Call as soon as possible to let a supervisor know you will not be showing up for your shift.

Hint, Most responsible people can party without consuming so much that they will be unable to go to work tomorrow.
I even know a couple thet don’t have to consume anything to party


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Having lived for six years in Fargo, I understand his attention to routine at the postal service


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Ice-sage said:


> Except the folks posting in this thread generally espouse wanting slave labor...I mean employees. In the years I have been reading here or since when I first posted here, not once have I laid eyes upon a post(except for my own) actually saying or it meaning it, and definitely putting it into practice. That is why you have these type of "employee" threads endlessly since the inception of this forum. It is the only world they have been taught. And they will try to hang someone like me who thinks and acts outside of their subjegation to their perceived norms and teachings. Disgusting.
> 
> It really is too bad people can't look in the mirror and change themselves first. Imagine the power we the people would have and are supposed to have if just us snow service folks got together and told the corps we rely on enough is enough. Stop with the half a$$ engineering, planned engineered obselescence and so on and so forth. It takes an act of god/show of force/dollar votes to even get these corps to take our advice let alone listen or try to engineer something better that we use on a continual basis. To economize, to create efficiency, to go forth with sustainability, the corps track record shows the tiny incremental steps they take. All due to profit.
> 
> The system must change. Otherwise all you private snow service guys will soon be begging the govco and states and municipalites to bail you out as well. Trust me, they have a plan for that. You will own and control nothing. You will run your buisness their way and you will like the crumbs they give you. Does everyone here want that? Seems to be the concensus.


Looks like the politics thread is leaking.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ice-sage said:


> Except the folks posting in this thread generally espouse wanting slave labor...I mean employees. In the years I have been reading here or since when I first posted here, not once have I laid eyes upon a post(except for my own) actually saying or it meaning it, and definitely putting it into practice. That is why you have these type of "employee" threads endlessly since the inception of this forum. It is the only world they have been taught. And they will try to hang someone like me who thinks and acts outside of their subjegation to their perceived norms and teachings. Disgusting.
> 
> It really is too bad people can't look in the mirror and change themselves first. Imagine the power we the people would have and are supposed to have if just us snow service folks got together and told the corps we rely on enough is enough. Stop with the half a$$ engineering, planned engineered obselescence and so on and so forth. It takes an act of god/show of force/dollar votes to even get these corps to take our advice let alone listen or try to engineer something better that we use on a continual basis. To economize, to create efficiency, to go forth with sustainability, the corps track record shows the tiny incremental steps they take. All due to profit.
> 
> The system must change. Otherwise all you private snow service guys will soon be begging the govco and states and municipalites to bail you out as well. Trust me, they have a plan for that. You will own and control nothing. You will run your buisness their way and you will like the crumbs they give you. Does everyone here want that? Seems to be the concensus.


Nice to see you have the answer for everyone/everything else. And you think you're the smartest person in the room.

Must be a progressive.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Anyone call in sick today?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> Anyone call in sick today?


Yes, said he has vehicle issues.....It's probably his windshield washer tank.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Anyone call in sick today?





BUFF said:


> Yes, said he has vehicle issues.....It's probably his windshield washer tank.


He obviously didn't have one of these.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> He obviously didn't have one of these.
> View attachment 213299


Correct, he drives a Taaho


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Hydromaster said:


> Anyone call in sick today?


Is it grocery day already...?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> Anyone call in sick today?


I tried, but the boss lady said I had to go in anyway, I married a nasty women.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> I tried, but the boss lady said I had to go in anyway, I married a nasty women.


Did you walk to work?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

EWSplow said:


> Did you walk to work?


Called road service, darn they are expensive.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Just sent out the round of texts for tommorrow morning's run. 

Get one back: Hey Dave, I badly pulled my groin muscle yesterday. I couldn't even move yesterday after it happened for the entire day it was so bad. I had to get crutches to try to get around. I'm a tad better today but won't be able to run a tractor or even get into it. Sorry about that. I wish it didn't happen but did it lifting something. I'm home now on pain killers anti inflammatory. Sorry man. I should have called you. I never clued in. I didn't know there was more snow coming or even thinking about it at this moment. The hospital said I has a "grade 3 groin pull". I'm flat on my back now. I'll let you know as soon as I can when I can be back.

My response: And I thought Mahomes was the one that got beat up. Guess being a KC fan is tougher than it looks.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

GMC Driver said:


> Just sent out the round of texts for tommorrow morning's run.
> 
> Get one back: Hey Dave, I badly pulled my groin muscle yesterday. I couldn't even move yesterday after it happened for the entire day it was so bad. I had to get crutches to try to get around. I'm a tad better today but won't be able to run a tractor or even get into it. Sorry about that. I wish it didn't happen but did it lifting something. I'm home now on pain killers anti inflammatory. Sorry man. I should have called you. I never clued in. I didn't know there was more snow coming or even thinking about it at this moment. The hospital said I has a "grade 3 groin pull". I'm flat on my back now. I'll let you know as soon as I can when I can be back.
> 
> My response: And I thought Mahomes was the one that got beat up. Guess being a KC fan is tougher than it looks.


Lol I just sent a round of texts as well about work tomorrow. I got this one back-

"Might have to fix my car first, ill know for sure by 11pm."

You would think they'd have the courtesy to give us a little more time to find a substitute.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Landgreen said:


> Lol I just sent a round of texts as well about work tomorrow. I got this one back-
> 
> "Might have to fix my car first, ill know for sure by 11pm."
> 
> You would think they'd have the courtesy to give us a little more time to find a substitute.


Oh no no... snow is the last thing on their mind. Even when it's snowing!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

One no show, mom and dad don't know where he is. Didn't know he left the house.

Another no answer. Fortunately it's just touchups.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

GMC Driver said:


> Just sent out the round of texts for tommorrow morning's run.
> 
> Get one back: Hey Dave, I badly pulled my groin muscle yesterday. I couldn't even move yesterday after it happened for the entire day it was so bad. I had to get crutches to try to get around. I'm a tad better today but won't be able to run a tractor or even get into it. Sorry about that. I wish it didn't happen but did it lifting something. I'm home now on pain killers anti inflammatory. Sorry man. I should have called you. I never clued in. I didn't know there was more snow coming or even thinking about it at this moment. The hospital said I has a "grade 3 groin pull". I'm flat on my back now. I'll let you know as soon as I can when I can be back.
> 
> My response: And I thought Mahomes was the one that got beat up. Guess being a KC fan is tougher than it looks.


Wow, lots of groin pullers out there...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Another no answer. Fortunately it's just touchups.


Sorry, phone was dead...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Sorry, phone was dead...


I know...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)




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## dmacleo (Mar 11, 2017)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Wow, lots of groin pullers out there...


another political thread leak ?? LOL


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