# B&B Urgent help needed, lost reverse in 05 2500HD



## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Hi Guys
was stacking snow and went it put it in reverse and nothing, trans fluid not burnt, temps never over 200 degrees. I have it in the garage right now thawing out, snow is packed around the skid plate and I would guess the trans also. Going to look for broken wires or a pin pulled out out of harness. I do have all the rest of the gears, any ideas or thoughts?????


Thanks Mike


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

Broken reverse band...


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

cubicinches;1009990 said:


> Broken reverse band...


That would be my guess also.


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## Dewey (Feb 1, 2010)

been there done that.... Broken reverse band...


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## GreenDuramax04 (Dec 7, 2004)

It could also be the NSBS (Neutral safety backup switch). Its located on the side of the trans around the shift linkage. Its happend to me before. Sometime snow/water gets into the connector.


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

yep read on nsbs


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Is it an Ally or a 4L80?


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

You might get lucky, but it's likely the Low/Reverse band. They usually go without warning.

Been there, done that, got the canceled check.

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=74317


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

lilweeds;1010169 said:


> Is it an Ally or a 4L80?


4L80, trans


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Then it's probably the band.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Easy positive identification test since you still have all forward gears Mike. Do you have full compression braking if you hold it in manual 1st, run it up to around 20 MPH and quickly back out of the throttle? If there's little compression braking in manual 1st then the rear band is broke. Thus no reverse either. 

You know what comes next.


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## millsaps118 (Aug 13, 2006)

B&B what causes the reverse band to go while in D? Op said he was stacking and shifted to R and had nothing. 

Just looking for some clarification.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

millsaps118;1010366 said:


> B&B what causes the reverse band to go while in D? Op said he was stacking and shifted to R and had nothing. Just looking for some clarification.


 Nothing, because it doesn't break until you engage it. But they'll do it so quick and cleanly on the initial engagement that you never even feel it apply and then break. Kind of gives you that  feeling when they do.


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## millsaps118 (Aug 13, 2006)

So basically the R band can go at any time regardless if your plowing or not. I could hop in my truck tomorrow morning and throw it in R and nothing......? That sucks!!!!


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

B&B;1010357 said:


> Easy positive identification test since you still have all forward gears Mike. Do you have full compression braking if you hold it in manual 1st, run it up to around 20 MPH and quickly back out of the throttle? If there's little compression braking in manual 1st then the rear band is broke. Thus no reverse either.
> 
> You know what comes next.


Hi B&B
My ass is dragging been plowing for about 18 hours and now this. This is why I posted this question to you, wanted to see if there was a easy way to tell if it was in fact a rear band broken. If it is a rear band do you suggest just replacing it or are there some other mods that should be done at the same time.??? Also anybody have a good rebuilder that is quick? 
Ya I know I want everything, but we have more snow on the way and really need to get this truck back on the road.

Thanks for all of your help, too tired to do this test tonight but will do it first thing in the morning and will report back.

Good Night Mike


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

millsaps118;1010379 said:


> So basically the R band can go at any time regardless if your plowing or not. I could hop in my truck tomorrow morning and throw it in R and nothing......?


100% correct, it can let go at any time and with no prior indication that it's about to.

And some just die no matter how well you treat them but it's still important to keep reverse abuse to a minimum as much as possible until it's time for a rebuild. Then it can be upgraded to a good quality band...so you can pound it all you want then. Or until the next weakest link lets go.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

Where to you suggest buying upgraded 4L80 internal parts at B&B?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

flykelley;1010381 said:


> Hi B&B
> My ass is dragging been plowing for about 18 hours and now this. This is why I posted this question to you, wanted to see if there was a easy way to tell if it was in fact a rear band broken. If it is a rear band do you suggest just replacing it or are there some other mods that should be done at the same time.??? Also anybody have a good rebuilder that is quick?
> Ya I know I want everything, but we have more snow on the way and really need to get this truck back on the road.
> 
> ...


How much usage does it have on it Mike? If it's been taken care of there isn't much else that would need done beside upgrading the band. Many guys jump the gun after breaking the band and want to rebuild the entire unit, but unless it's been pounded or has a ton of miles on it the rest of the internals will usually still be in like new condition. I've torn many down that all the wear parts still looked like new and simply replaced the band and re-installed it and it lived a long life.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

IMAGE;1010384 said:


> Where to you suggest buying upgraded 4L80 internal parts at B&B?


I purchase most of my trans parts through a local supplier Steve so I can't give you an exact place to go on the web but I'm sure there's many of them out there. However, when you're looking around try to find a genuine "ALTO" brand kit as they produce some of the best rebuild kits and many distributors sell them. Or at least try to find someone else's branded kit that includes ALTO's clutches and steels. If you're not aware ALTO is one of the biggest supplier of trans parts out there and much of their stuff is manufactured in the good old USA. You'll be starting out with good quality components then.

Note: most kits don't include the front or rear bands so they have to be purchased separately in many cases.


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

Happened to my brother, pushed into a pile and went to backup at first he thought he was stuck no such luck.:crying:


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## andcon83 (Dec 10, 2005)

B&B;1010382 said:


> And some just die no matter how well you treat them but it's still important to keep reverse abuse to a minimum as much as possible until it's time for a rebuild.


Reverse abuse is really just waiting untill you are stopped to put it in R, right? Oh, and do the R to 1 and 1 to R shifts.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

andcon83;1010711 said:


> Reverse abuse is really just waiting untill you are stopped to put it in R, right? Oh, and do the R to 1 and 1 to R shifts.


You're on the right track. Crossing your fingers before each shift to reverse may help too if your the superstitious type.


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## The mayor (Oct 31, 2005)

What is the average cost of the r band breaking. If I was to take it in.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

The mayor;1010770 said:


> What is the average cost of the r band breaking. If I was to take it in.


I think I was looking at $600 to do reverse only.

But they thought I should have a new converter, new OD drum, a couple other things, I was up over $1200 at that point.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

2COR517;1010811 said:


> I think I was looking at $600 to do reverse only.
> 
> But they thought I should have a new converter, new OD drum, a couple other things, I was up over $1200 at that point.


 Those figures are in line with the average and for a full (and thorough) rebuild with all new parts around $1800-$2000 isn't out of the ordinary.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

2COR517;1010811 said:


> I think I was looking at $600 to do reverse only.
> 
> But they thought I should have a new converter, new OD drum, a couple other things, I was up over $1200 at that point.





B&B;1010832 said:


> Those figures are in line with the average and for a full (and thorough) rebuild with all new parts around $1800-$2000 isn't out of the ordinary.


Yes, I should have clarified. Once I was at $1,200 I figured I would spend the extra $700 for the full rebuild. Total bill was $1,900 ish.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

B&B;1010385 said:


> How much usage does it have on it Mike? If it's been taken care of there isn't much else that would need done beside upgrading the band. Many guys jump the gun after breaking the band and want to rebuild the entire unit, but unless it's been pounded or has a ton of miles on it the rest of the internals will usually still be in like new condition. I've torn many down that all the wear parts still looked like new and simply replaced the band and re-installed it and it lived a long life.


Ok Guys
Here is the update, got a friend who knows how to rebuild trans, he called this am told him what happen and how every trans shop in town is talking 2-3 days to maybe have it done. He came over and we took the pan off and the valve body and nothing looks out of place. The rear band appears to be ok but we are not sure at this point. Talked to a local trans parts supplier and he was talking about some cast two tier part which I can't remember the name of so we decided to pull the trans. We have it out and called it a night. Bought a mater rebuilt kit just in case and a new rear drum. We be tearing it apart in the am so I will know more tomorrow sometime. The truck has 100K inside of the trans looks real good but the fluid was a little dark but didn't smell burnt. No metal shaving in the pan except a few small bronze shavings. Im tires and headed to bed after a shower and some food.

Regards Mike


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Ok this is the part we think maybe the problem, but Im not sure at this point. I don't even know whats its called


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Thats the forward clutch piston Mike. I can't see anything visibly wrong with it in the pics (can't be expected to) but if you had an issue with it (the forward clutch assembly) you'd have no forward movement and the forward clutch assembly has no bearing or reverse anyway. So you're barking up the wrong tree there.

Once you have it completely disassembled you'll know if you have a rear band issue The lug with broken off the band itself, the locating lugs will be sheared from the case or the apply servo and/or pin will be munched. Pretty easy to identify all those with a visual. 

I have to ask about your friend who claims to know how to rebuild transmissions though, if he knows what he's doing why does he not know what the forward clutch piston looks like or what to look for specifically when there's a loss of reverse? If he's been around at all it's elementary on a 4L80E.


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## andcon83 (Dec 10, 2005)

Wait!! Wait!! Here it is!!! I think this thread is the reason they did this....


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Mike,

Since you work for GM, can you get discounts on transmissons, parts, etc? I've always wondered, how that worked for employees. 

Keep us posted, I'm interested to see what the problems ends up being, take more pics if you can.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

dlcs;1011278 said:


> Mike,
> 
> Since you work for GM, can you get discounts on transmissons, parts, etc? I've always wondered, how that worked for employees.
> 
> Keep us posted, I'm interested to see what the problems ends up being, take more pics if you can.


Hi DLCS
Yes I do get a employee discount, we have to buy the parts through SPO plants. The bigger parts can tend to be harder to get, they don't stock a lot of them in the SPO plants as a rule. A lot of the times its cheaper to buy a crate motor or rebuild trans off the internet or a local dealer that sells them for a lot less than regular price. Will post more pictures later on today.

Regards Mike


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## The mayor (Oct 31, 2005)

This reverse band. Can it be changed out before it breaks with a aftermarket unit as a p.m.
Is aftermarket better. I have no idea what I am talking about so no teasing.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

The mayor;1012187 said:


> This reverse band. Can it be changed out before it breaks with a aftermarket unit as a p.m.
> Is aftermarket better. I have no idea what I am talking about so no teasing.


Sure you can, but of course you have to remove and completely disassemble the trans to do it. Most just run them until they fail as there's no guarantee it ever will. It's just the luck of the draw and how it's used.


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## The mayor (Oct 31, 2005)

Will do. It was sounding like a when over a if. I thought it would be better to get changed out on my time over a storm.


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## flykelley (Dec 29, 2003)

Hi B&B and Guys
Well Big Red is back on the road. My friend and I tore the trans apart today and like B&B said it was the reverse back. Its been a long couple of days but she is back on the road. Question for you though, I did the drive it in low test like you said but I couldn't tell any difference in braking like you said there should have been. Hell I was tired maybe I didn't do it right. Anyways I want to thank B&B for all of his help, you are always here to help any of us out and I think thats what makes this site so great. If we ever do have a meet and greet I for you will be you some beer. Quick shower, hot tub and a cold beer for me then Im off to bed. Here is a picture of the old band.

Regards Mike


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## RichG53 (Sep 16, 2008)

By the time we all buy him the BEER:: we owe him ...OBOY he might have a headache in the morning !!!! 
And never help us again !!! :laughing::


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Good to hear you're back up and running Mike. 

Looks like it only broke the one lug so it may of still had a little compression braking left in it yet. Or as you said it was a long day so maybe you weren't checking it correctly. 

Happy plowing.


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## Motorman 007 (Jan 11, 2005)

*This has me nervous....*



B&B;1010753 said:


> You're on the right track. Crossing your fingers before each shift to reverse may help too if your the superstitious type.


Now that Mike is back on the road and all is well, more than a few of us now have to be wondering* when, not if* this is this going to happen to us. Don't get me wrong, I don't abuse my truck in any way when plowing but if we're going to be honest with ourselves, how many of us baby the D to R shift and vice versa?? A $2K rebuild at any point in a trucks life has got to suck really badly. I've been plowing for 32 years in many different GMC's and never lost a tranny yet. 
I actually woke up thinking about this the other night. I must be getting old....


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Motorman 007;1012792 said:


> Now that Mike is back on the road and all is well, more than a few of us now have to be wondering* when, not if* this is this going to happen to us. Don't get me wrong, I don't abuse my truck in any way when plowing but if we're going to be honest with ourselves, how many of us baby *the D to R shift and vice versa??* A $2K rebuild at any point in a trucks life has got to suck really badly. I've been plowing for 32 years in many different GMC's and never lost a tranny yet.
> I actually woke up thinking about this the other night. I must be getting old....


One of the best things you can do to lengthen service life of the Reverse/Low band in a plow truck is to modify your shift pattern to [R] to [1] to [R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1]

You get the idea LOL.

This has been discussed many times, including in the post I linked in this thread.


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## Motorman 007 (Jan 11, 2005)

2COR517;1012810 said:


> One of the best things you can do to lengthen service life of the Reverse/Low band in a plow truck is to modify your shift pattern to [R] to [1] to [R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1] to[R] to [1]
> 
> You get the idea LOL.
> 
> This has been discussed many times, including in the post I linked in this thread.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, I read all of that. It's not happenin' and it shouldn't be necessary.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Motorman 007;1013112 said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah, I read all of that. It's not happenin' and it shouldn't be necessary.


You must be the expert


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Motorman 007;1013112 said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah, I read all of that. It's not happenin' and it shouldn't be necessary.


 But consider yourself warned. :waving:


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## Dockboy19 (Dec 23, 2009)

This thread has been my entertainment for a day or so. Taking all the recommendations from this thread for a 4L60E trans I know how to make it last. Does the reverse bands break or go in these as well or is it a different story? Just curious what to look for as I know it isn't as beefy.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

B&B;1013374 said:


> But consider yourself warned. :waving:


I know I am warned but after 8 years and 175K miles im still on my original transmission. I do always stop before changing gears though


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Dockboy19;1013607 said:


> This thread has been my entertainment for a day or so. Taking all the recommendations from this thread for a 4L60E trans I know how to make it last. Does the reverse bands break or go in these as well or is it a different story? Just curious what to look for as I know it isn't as beefy.


 Broken bands don't play into it on the 60E's as far as 1st and reverse go as they don't use their single band for 1st or reverse. But they do for 2nd so if you plow a great deal in 2nd (or shift into and out of 2nd often) that can contribute to band issues, although they still generally don't break them, they simply slip instead. Just another good reason to hold it in manual 1st when speeds are low enough to warrant it.

And they still have their usual failures as far as in a plow truck, which are they like to smoke the low/reverse clutches or fracture the sun shell. They'll take some punishment but not a great deal if the truck is run hard or heavy.



BigLou80;1013639 said:


> I know I am warned but after 8 years and 175K miles im still on my original transmission. I do always stop before changing gears though.


As many of us have stated in the past Lou, that's the best thing to do to prolong it's life beside keeping it cool. Hope you see an even 200K at least.


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## Dockboy19 (Dec 23, 2009)

Thank you for the reply, I do about ten driveways on my street and baby the crap out of the truck. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!


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