# Charging a Down payment a good idea?



## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

Hello, I work in South East Michigan Metro Detroit area and i have an amazing opportunity to Clear 2 huge apartment towers parking lots and sidewalks. Only problem it I do not have the capitol to go a month or so without being paid and for the estimated 8 tons of salt needed per clearing. plus needing another truck to handle the other 5 commercial and 30 residential contracts i have. (Billing at end of month) If the price per clearing is about $8,000 and the trigger is 1in for salt and 2in for plowing is it a bad idea to ask for a down payment of $40,000 or so? Average events range from 10-15 throughout the year .


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

If you said that to me.I'd shake your hand and say,thank you ,but no thanks,next!


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

IMO if you don't have the startup capital, your not ready yet.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

If you can't afford to front all that is required for commercial properties for a minimum of 90 days, you're too small to take on the work. Line of credit, etc is no different than not being able to front it yourself. If you and/or the business do not have the cash on hand to cover all expenses, the job is too big for you to handle.

I'm sure some will disagree on the LOC/CC's but all that does is move the issue down the road if someone doesn't pay or pays too slow. And it screws credit up in the process.

Also, I'd like to see an apartment complex that is 8K per plow/salt.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I've met many landscape and construction contractors that require 25% on signing. There is nothing wrong with asking for it if you're hesitant that they will pay. I've never seen it in the snow industry, and that is where you are competing. If you really want the work you won't ask for it. If you are hesitant then go ahead, what can it hurt.


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

John_DeereGreen;2042155 said:


> If you can't afford to front all that is required for commercial properties for a minimum of 90 days, you're too small to take on the work. Line of credit, etc is no different than not being able to front it yourself. If you and/or the business do not have the cash on hand to cover all expenses, the job is too big for you to handle.
> 
> I'm sure some will disagree on the LOC/CC's but all that does is move the issue down the road if someone doesn't pay or pays too slow. And it screws credit up in the process.
> 
> Also, I'd like to see an apartment complex that is 8K per plow/salt.


Opps ya sorry meant 8 thousand pounds. I do see your point regarding the credit This is our third year in the plow business. Never really taken a loan out besides on the Truck and plow. But yes the Property is fairly large and requires lots of sidewalk clearing more than anything along with 5 loading docks with 4-6 degree grades. With about 450,000 square feet to work with its appartments mixed with a shopping plaza.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Mr.Markus;2042164 said:


> I've met many landscape and construction contractors that require 25% on signing. There is nothing wrong with asking for it if you're hesitant that they will pay. I've never seen it in the snow industry, and that is where you are competing. If you really want the work you won't ask for it. If you are hesitant then go ahead, what can it hurt.


Special orders maybe, might try it for salt, but this is where the lines of credit comes in.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnowGeekJason;2042146 said:


> Hello, I work in South East Michigan Metro Detroit area and i have an amazing opportunity to Clear 2 huge apartment towers parking lots and sidewalks. Only problem it I do not have the capitol to go a month or so without being paid and for the estimated 8 tons of salt needed per clearing. plus needing another truck to handle the other 5 commercial and 30 residential contracts i have. (Billing at end of month) If the price per clearing is about $8,000 and the trigger is 1in for salt and 2in for plowing is it a bad idea to ask for a down payment of $40,000 or so? Average events range from 10-15 throughout the year .


I think you need to do your numbers again on the salt and go from there. Sounds like your stressing over start up. Sounds like a lot of salt for one event. Is this something they want to give you or will there be other bidders?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

SnowGeekJason;2042146 said:


> Hello, I work in South East Michigan Metro Detroit area and i have an amazing opportunity to Clear 2 huge apartment towers parking lots and sidewalks. Only problem it I do not have the capitol to go a month or so without being paid and for the estimated 8 tons of salt needed per clearing. plus needing another truck to handle the other 5 commercial and 30 residential contracts i have. (Billing at end of month) If the price per clearing is about $8,000 and the trigger is 1in for salt and 2in for plowing is it a bad idea to ask for a down payment of $40,000 or so? Average events range from 10-15 throughout the year .


Does not sound like your Business is ready for this size of account..

What makes you so sure they are going to pay in 30 days after bill is submitted?

If your bent on getting this account try selling them on a seasonal contract..A fixed amount every month for the winter..


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

FredG;2042175 said:


> I think you need to do your numbers again on the salt and go from there. Sounds like your stressing over start up. Sounds like a lot of salt for one event. Is this something they want to give you or will there be other bidders?


Not sure if on if there other bidders. Yes I do agree it might be more than i can chew but you gotta start somewhere. To the measurement i took this is what i figured.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Is it 450k of pavement??


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

Defcon 5;2042177 said:


> Does not sound like your Business is ready for this size of account..
> 
> What makes you so sure they are going to pay in 30 days after bill is submitted?
> 
> If your bent on getting this account try selling them on a seasonal contract..A fixed amount every month for the winter..


I like the idea about a contract for the season but with a cap. I typically done it with my Residential accounts. They usually pay 100% up front or half. That way i can get revenue early to start off. Typically how i work if the client does not pay with a Month of the invoice date I do not continue to work for them. Of course i get them more than one warning. Agreed My company is somewhat new to snow plowing but not first year.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnowGeekJason;2042146 said:


> Hello, I work in South East Michigan Metro Detroit area and i have an amazing opportunity to Clear 2 huge apartment towers parking lots and sidewalks. Only problem it I do not have the capitol to go a month or so without being paid and for the estimated 8 tons of salt needed per clearing. plus needing another truck to handle the other 5 commercial and 30 residential contracts i have. (Billing at end of month) If the price per clearing is about $8,000 and the trigger is 1in for salt and 2in for plowing is it a bad idea to ask for a down payment of $40,000 or so? Average events range from 10-15 throughout the year .


Why can't you get credit from your salt supplier. Go to the bank and take a 90 day note. They know you need working capitol. I used to do that all the time when I started out. This was a long time ago. Hopefully the banks still do that.


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

Defcon 5;2042183 said:


> Is it 450k of pavement??


Yes, lots of sidewalks more than anything. There are Two towers and about 18 stories on each tower. So figure there is a lot of parking spaces, sidewalks, and there's a small shopping area as well.


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

FredG;2042185 said:


> Why can't you get credit from your salt supplier. Go to the bank and take a 90 day note. They know you need working capitol. I used to do that all the time when I started out. This was a long time ago. Hopefully the banks still do that.


Trust Me i would love to do that. Only Problem is I'm 19. Only thing building credit right now is Truck and Plow. The company brings in a little less than about $125,000 a year as of now.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnowGeekJason;2042182 said:


> Not sure if on if there other bidders. Yes I do agree it might be more than i can chew but you gotta start somewhere. To the measurement i took this is what i figured.


Don't be scared take the opportunity. If your a hard worker it will work for you. Just do it and don't stop till finished. You will see you can do it. You know you need a back up plan. Meaning someone to cover you in case of a break down etc. I keep extra equipment around just for that reason. You may need someone with a loader for stacking. You can only stack so far with a truck.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Nothing wrong with borrowing money or using LOC on something that is going to make you money. We all had to start somewhere. Just make sure you know what your getting into.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

FredG;2042185 said:


> Why can't you get credit from your salt supplier. Go to the bank and take a 90 day note. They know you need working capitol. I used to do that all the time when I started out. This was a long time ago. Hopefully the banks still do that.


True salt supplier giving credit ? Lol


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## 160SR (Oct 1, 2014)

If you walk into a bank with a signed contract for 120K they may front you some money but they're gonna want a slice of the pie.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnowGeekJason;2042189 said:


> Trust Me i would love to do that. Only Problem is I'm 19. Only thing building credit right now is Truck and Plow. The company brings in a little less than about $125,000 a year as of now.


If you paid that truck on time as agreed and been paying for a year or two that is enough. Don't you know any private lenders? I backed a son of one of my long time friends. The kid is banging!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Superior L & L;2042195 said:


> True salt supplier giving credit ? Lol


I never tried, I charge stone, Blacktop, concrete, pipe etc. Why not salt?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

160SR;2042197 said:


> If you walk into a bank with a signed contract for 120K they may front you some money but they're gonna want a slice of the pie.


For sure 19 years old 15%


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

There is no way he is getting anything from the bank, especially at 19 yrs old. 

Just move on, you won't be able to handle it.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

FredG;2042204 said:


> I never tried, I charge stone, Blacktop, concrete, pipe etc. Why not salt?


We typically get terms from all our suppliers also and from our local salt suppliers, but we've had relationships with them for a long time. The salt mines have typically moved to pre paying for your loads


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Superior L & L;2042215 said:


> The salt mines have typically moved to pre paying for your loads


They have?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

WIPensFan;2042214 said:


> There is no way he is getting anything from the bank, especially at 19 yrs old.
> 
> Just move on, you won't be able to handle it.


This ^

It takes money to make money. LOC is fine if you've got cash on hand to back it. Other than that, it's a slippery slope.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Superior L & L;2042215 said:


> We typically get terms from all our suppliers also and from our local salt suppliers, but we've had relationships with them for a long time. The salt mines have typically moved to pre paying for your loads


We can't even go to the mine no more. You have to take 22 tons at a time. I only have 10 ton trucks thats all I need. If I need larger loads I hire trucks. It looks like I will have to have 22 tons delivered. I have to get it through Duke.

You used to be able to go to the pit without a credit report. As long as you paid you were good to go. A couple of local rats ruined that.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnowGeekJason;2042184 said:


> I like the idea about a contract for the season but with a cap. I typically done it with my Residential accounts. They usually pay 100% up front or half. That way i can get revenue early to start off. Typically how i work if the client does not pay with a Month of the invoice date I do not continue to work for them. Of course i get them more than one warning. Agreed My company is somewhat new to snow plowing but not first year.


In this area if you watch the news or read the paper. Anywhere Between Buffalo and Syracuse You would be lucky to get any monies up front. Two thief's just got convicted for taking the money and not performing the service.


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## Bglassmeyer (Oct 24, 2015)

SnowGeekJason;2042189 said:


> Trust Me i would love to do that. Only Problem is I'm 19. Only thing building credit right now is Truck and Plow. The company brings in a little less than about $125,000 a year as of now.


I am actually in the same situation as you. I'm only 19 and have the same problems with only being able to come up with so much money/ getting a loan. 
I came in contact with an owner of a commercial property management company. He has 13 commercial properties that he wants maintained for snow, grass and landscaping. He started me out biding on three property's to see where I am at on my pricing. One lot was around 250,000 square feet and other two were around 75,000-100,000 square feet. I see it as an opportunity that shouldn't be passed up. Maybe bill out some of your other snow clients after each snow to try keep the cash flow. Do you know anyone that could loan you money? As in a family member or friend, write up a contract and let them make some interest


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

FredG;2042185 said:


> Why can't you get credit from your salt supplier. Go to the bank and take a 90 day note. They know you need working capitol. I used to do that all the time when I started out. This was a long time ago. Hopefully the banks still do that.


What happens when the note comes due if the client never pays him. This situation has the potential to greatly grow your business OP, but it has the potential to put you under if it goes south.


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## born2farm (Dec 24, 2007)

I've been in your shoes/am still in your shoes in a way. When I was younger and starting out we always paid for everything with cash and had a hard time getting loans. People on here are going to say that you can't handle it because your young, but no business owner can honestly say that they haven't jumped in to a contract a little over there head. This is how you grow and how you learn. Do it smart and do the job right and you will be fine. 

We use our seasonal contracts to cash flow is through the first few storms. First payments due Nov. 15th, so it helps. We have a 30day credit with our salt supplier and use WEX to charge our fuel. This helps us spread out our 2 biggest operating expenses. There is ways to do it. Have a plan going in and treat your vendors well. Pay on time and they will be more understanding down the road if you get in a bind. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Superior L & L;2042195 said:


> True salt supplier giving credit ? Lol


What's so funny about that? How do you buy salt if not on a credit account from the supplier?


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

JimMarshall;2042335 said:


> What's so funny about that? How do you buy salt if not on a credit account from the supplier?


At our local supplier we have terms (great ones at that) and very much appreciate it. At the mine we have terms but they are not great, just enough so you can get a few 50 ton loads and not have to deal with getting the mine a check though third party trucking guys. 
Even the big players around here are pre buying all there salt


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

John_DeereGreen;2042239 said:


> This ^
> 
> It takes money to make money. LOC is fine if you've got cash on hand to back it. Other than that, it's a slippery slope.


If he has cash on hand then why would he take a line of credit? The whole point of credit is to float your expenses for a short time. I agree that the op might not be ready for this big of a contract but I've seen 19 year olds become pretty successful before. Hopefully it works for him


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2042331 said:


> What happens when the note comes due if the client never pays him. This situation has the potential to greatly grow your business OP, but it has the potential to put you under if it goes south.


Does anyone have high late fee's in your contracts. I don't wait 90 days for nobody without penalties. He don't want to pay give him a visit. If that don't work tie him to the back of your truck and drag him around the lot. If he goes south he will have to climb that ladder again. He's young enough. Most of all leave him high and dry and sit there in your truck without plowing. I don't think any smart person is going to want to help him if he did not pay the kid.

Quit killing the kids dreams its only snow removal. Not rocket science.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

FredG;2042368 said:


> Does anyone have high late fee's in your contracts. I don't wait 90 days for nobody without penalties. He don't want to pay give him a visit. If that don't work tie him to the back of your truck and drag him around the lot. If he goes south he will have to climb that ladder again. He's young enough. Most of all leave him high and dry and sit there in your truck without plowing. I don't think any smart person is going to want to help him if he did not pay the kid.
> 
> Quit killing the kids dreams its only snow removal. Not rocket science.


It's not killing his dream, it's about being smart and not jumping into hairy situations. You guys love telling people to "go for it" from the comfort of your computer, knowing full well it's not your financial future on the line. Quit giving young guys bad advice.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Go for it....trial by fire.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

FredG;2042368 said:


> Does anyone have high late fee's in your contracts. I don't wait 90 days for nobody without penalties.


What are your late fees?

You can tack all the interest and late fees you want onto the contract, it doesn't help if the customer doesn't pay.

Here you will have a hard time getting a contractors license if you have a bankruptcy that's business related, especially if it involves non-completion of a contract.

And the it's not rocket science statement is ridiculous. It is a science and requires knowledge and skills.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG;2042368 said:


> Does anyone have high late fee's in your contracts. I don't wait 90 days for nobody without penalties. He don't want to pay give him a visit. If that don't work tie him to the back of your truck and drag him around the lot. If he goes south he will have to climb that ladder again. He's young enough. Most of all leave him high and dry and sit there in your truck without plowing. I don't think any smart person is going to want to help him if he did not pay the kid.
> 
> Quit killing the kids dreams its only snow removal. Not rocket science.


As for late fees,You can only charge so much by law per month.

It is common to waite 90days for payment. 
Lol, what Ya going to do break his knees caps?

Dreams and reality .....


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I'm a firm believer in taking opportunity when it knocks. All of us know how hard it is just to land the work when presented with the opportunity, to me that's the hard part not the actual completion of the job. If this place is as large as it is purported chances are they pay their bills on a set schedule.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Mr.Markus;2042397 said:


> If this place is as large as it is purported chances are they pay their bills on a set schedule.


Yep they probably pay everything at 90 days.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

born2farm;2042333 said:


> I've been in your shoes/am still in your shoes in a way. When I was younger and starting out we always paid for everything with cash and had a hard time getting loans. People on here are going to say that you can't handle it because your young, but no business owner can honestly say that they haven't jumped in to a contract a little over there head. This is how you grow and how you learn. Do it smart and do the job right and you will be fine.
> 
> We use our seasonal contracts to cash flow is through the first few storms. First payments due Nov. 15th, so it helps. We have a 30day credit with our salt supplier and use WEX to charge our fuel. This helps us spread out our 2 biggest operating expenses. There is ways to do it. Have a plan going in and treat your vendors well. Pay on time and they will be more understanding down the road if you get in a bind. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.


Well said. Good post


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Give it a shot if you've got enough cash coming in from other quick paying contracts. You've got to step out of your comfort zone to grow. BUT tread careful. Most large complexes around us have the same 6-8 contractors bid them and all are qualified to do them. Why would this property manager go out on a lim to hire a under qualified contractor and risk upsetting her tennents


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## anz27 (Jan 21, 2014)

peteo1;2042366 said:


> If he has cash on hand then why would he take a line of credit? The whole point of credit is to float your expenses for a short time. I agree that the op might not be ready for this big of a contract but I've seen 19 year olds become pretty successful before. Hopefully it works for him


Having cash but using someone else's money short term will give him a cushion should something bad happen (unknown expense, not getting payment on time, etc...) OP, sit down and work the numbers. Nobody can say go for it, nor forget about it without knowing your business. Know the numbers like the back of your hand. At that point, you are not taking a shot in the dark. You are taking a calculated risk. After you've done that, if you truly believe you can do it, pull the trigger.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2042382 said:


> What are your late fees?
> 
> You can tack all the interest and late fees you want onto the contract, it doesn't help if the customer doesn't pay.
> 
> ...


You ever heard of a court of law. You will get all your money plus. I been there and done that. The kid already has experience. You don't have no problem here with bankruptcy as a contractor. You Go for it kid. I just backed a 19 year old kid and he is banging.

Your worried about clearing snow you better stay away from construction. I will leave your comment about ridiculous alone.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2042387 said:


> As for late fees,You can only charge so much by law per month.
> 
> It is common to waite 90days for payment.
> Lol, what Ya going to do break his knees caps?
> ...


I made a few visits to people that don't want to pay more than once. It might be common for your clients not mine. Thats abuse. If there not happy with 30 day invoice and maybe another 15 days which is 45 we have a problem. You can't break caps you will do time. This does not mean with a stocking you can't be lurking around were he hangs or lives. I came to this country from Sicily in 1960. Holding money is against the rules of the game.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2042460 said:


> I don't even know where to begin Fred.


Jim, It is very simple, Don't start non there won't be none. Everybody has a opinion. I learned a long time ago how to keep my mouth shut and act like a gentleman. I also learned if somebody runs them lips to take action.

I see these 19 year old kids trying to be good earners and productive citizens got more sense than most of the elders. Of course they are going to make mistakes we all did and still do.

I went into big paving jobs scared to death. When it happens its like I can do this. If your afraid of sticking your neck out or going out on a limb you will be doing them residential jobs all his life. Howard Hughes been bankrupt 5 or 6 times and look at Trump. When opportunity knocks you have to take a shot to grow your business

Do I care if it works out for the kid, Yes. If it don't he falls he will have to climb that ladder again. I would not walk away from a opportunity because I was scared of getting paid. Or borrowing any money.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

OK fellas, lets get back on track!

OP, do you have the resources to handle such a facility beside your regular contracted work?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Was just thinking that, there is not much mention of the equipment he has, employies, does he have a yard for storage? Did he check on insurance requirments. I'm not saying he shouldn't try this, but you have to think things thru, is the pool full before you jump in.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

1olddogtwo;2042479 said:


> OK fellas, lets get back on track!
> 
> OP, do you have the resources to handle such a facility beside your regular contracted work?


3 different threads same response,who you sucking up ?:laughing:


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

grandview;2042484 said:


> 3 different threads same response,who you sucking up ?:laughing:


OK fella, your riding the third rail here, be careful

You gotta learn to crawl before you can walk, gotta learn to walk before you can run, gotta learn to run before you sprint, gotta know to pace yourself to win the marathon.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

born2farm;2042333 said:


> I've been in your shoes/am still in your shoes in a way. When I was younger and starting out we always paid for everything with cash and had a hard time getting loans. People on here are going to say that you can't handle it because your young, but no business owner can honestly say that they haven't jumped in to a contract a little over there head. This is how you grow and how you learn. Do it smart and do the job right and you will be fine.
> 
> We use our seasonal contracts to cash flow is through the first few storms. First payments due Nov. 15th, so it helps. We have a 30day credit with our salt supplier and use WEX to charge our fuel. This helps us spread out our 2 biggest operating expenses. There is ways to do it. Have a plan going in and treat your vendors well. Pay on time and they will be more understanding down the road if you get in a bind. Feel free to PM me if you have more questions.


Good info and that's the truth.


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## zlssefi (Dec 29, 2011)

This is a tough one. When i was 19 i bought out a company that plowed three busy accounts on an airport. Prior to this my snow experience consisted of plowing 20 driveways, once per storm. It was a huge chunk to bite off, way more that most people would have tried. These accounts require 24/7 non stop service and I wouldnt change it for the world. These accounts truly changed who I am from who i would have been. That was 16 years ago and we have only grown from there. Dont be afraid to take some risk, but dont be foolish either. If you feel that your equipment is sufficient and your experience is as well, give it a shot! let us know how you do!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

zlssefi;2042514 said:


> This is a tough one. When i was 19 i bought out a company that plowed three busy accounts on an airport. Prior to this my snow experience consisted of plowing 20 driveways, once per storm. It was a huge chunk to bite off, way more that most people would have tried. These accounts require 24/7 non stop service and I wouldnt change it for the world. These accounts truly changed who I am from who i would have been. That was 16 years ago and we have only grown from there. Dont be afraid to take some risk, but dont be foolish either. If you feel that your equipment is sufficient and your experience is as well, give it a shot! let us know how you do!


Good for you, You are a ambitious young man with a lot of heart. Hows it feel to have money and the real estate, Maybe the lexus or Cadillac for your wife and just the feeling of being a good earner and the bills are payed with ease (most of the time) Sit at your office when not in the field and just watch it grow. Enjoy your new purchases, investment on new technology for equipment. Headaches are headaches deal with them and fix them financial etc.

Do you got the former owner payed off or were you lucky enough to have the capitol.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. See if you can bill for a month's worth of materials up front. Get a credit card. Line of credit, right there. And it builds credit. If you have one, and have made regular in full paymnets for 6 months, get them to increase the limit.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

Also, it gives me a glimmer of hope for the future to find young men who want to work. Rare thing these days.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Buswell Forest;2042534 said:


> Nothing ventured, nothing gained. See if you can bill for a month's worth of materials up front. Get a credit card. Line of credit, right there. And it builds credit. If you have one, and have made regular in full paymnets for 6 months, get them to increase the limit.


You should have a card anyways and use it for most of your purchases. So much easier on the bookkeeping end. Make it a good rewards card and get free money out of it.


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## John143 (Nov 2, 2011)

Here's an idea. Keep the accounts you had from last year. And instead of buying new toys in the spring and new lawn mowers, ext.... Put some of that snow money (back) into snow for the next season! 

Start be buying a metal building for storing bulk salt. I got a 20x30 installed for under 2K. Had to build block walls to get the height needed for a dump but you get the point. Now! You can start looking on CL for a V-box if you dont already have one. Right before summer hits I always see tons of them for sale for half price! Most of the time guys that didn't have a business plane or guys looking to cash in on white gold! And now are looking to unload equipment to pay back bad money!

Alot of these "fly by nighters" get started with a craftsman lawn tractor cutting grass. Then they run into a bigger contractor and ask..(how do you make money in the winter) He says snow removal! And bam! Pete's lawn care go's to Pete's snow removal! Problem is... Pete has no money and doesn't even have any insurance for plowing! No bulk salt, and 1 employee. The point?? Take your time! Get all your ducks in a row! Get snow blowers for walks. Get a pallet of calcium! All them walks you listed? Calcium is not cheap!! Get bulk salt! Buy it in the summer!! Fill that steel building up to the top!!! If you do some or all of the things I just outlined above...Come next season. You will not be posting on a site asking about down payments. 

But....If you do try to take on more then you are equipped to handle?? You will end up like Pete! And I'll see a 2014 F-250 DXT BOSS PLOW for sale on CL this spring!

Think big! But.... Think Smart First! Good luck...


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

JimMarshall;2042537 said:


> You should have a card anyways and use it for most of your purchases. So much easier on the bookkeeping end. Make it a good rewards card and get free money out of it.


I am not a fan of the card but they are almost a must. If you think rewards and free money are not charged to you at the purchase your blind. The business owners have all that figured into the price, trust me I give a discount for cash but I am just a small time guy. I am sure the big corps all play the percentage.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

John143;2042543 said:


> Here's an idea. Keep the accounts you had from last year. And instead of buying new toys in the spring and new lawn mowers, ext.... Put some of that snow money (back) into snow for the next season!
> 
> Start be buying a metal building for storing bulk salt. I got a 20x30 installed for under 2K. Had to build block walls to get the height needed for a dump but you get the point. Now! You can start looking on CL for a V-box if you dont already have one. Right before summer hits I always see tons of them for sale for half price! Most of the time guys that didn't have a business plane or guys looking to cash in on white gold! And now are looking to unload equipment to pay back bad money!
> 
> ...


Not sure a metal building for salt is the best idea.


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## John143 (Nov 2, 2011)

LapeerLandscape;2042546 said:


> Not sure a metal building for salt is the best idea.


Works just fine. But you do have to build block walls or put it on jersey barriers. For the most part. The salt is on the concrete walls.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan;2042376 said:


> It's not killing his dream, it's about being smart and not jumping into hairy situations. You guys love telling people to "go for it" from the comfort of your computer, knowing full well it's not your financial future on the line. Quit giving young guys bad advice.


Someone is finally being realistic about this "advice".


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

John143;2042547 said:


> Works just fine. But you do have to build block walls or put it on jersey barriers. For the most part. The salt is on the concrete walls.


Over time, it rust or corrode, unless it's stainless or galvanized.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG;2042368 said:


> Quit killing the kids dreams its only snow removal. Not rocket science.


If it's so easy why were you asking the most basic questions a short month ago?


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## John143 (Nov 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;2042555 said:


> Over time, it rust or corrode, unless it's stainless or galvanized.


So far...Had mine for about 5 years. No rust yet. But if it it does start rusting. I'll put a quick coat of paint on with the sprayer. I think some of my luck is due to the fact I spray the inside with fluid film once a season.

The point of me saying the steel building is because its alot cheaper then other salt storage buildings. And it works!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2042556 said:


> If it's so easy why were you asking the most basic questions a short month ago?


Because I knew you would be here to save the day.:yow!:
Does not mean the basics I was taught are the most efficient. I learn a lot on this site. What do you think come here for. I certainly know I can give some to.I only come here between seasons when I'm bored. I'm a business man and I'm taking all the good advice I can get. Basic to the end of the process. I been a equipment operator for 30 years. I have friends to this day doing something more efficient than me. Never think you know it all. And there will always somebody to fill your shoes.

We on the same page or I'm going to ignore you as advised.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

I don't think we have enough info, background, credit report on the OP to say if he can or should take on this endeavor but it takes money to make money. There are large contractors that pull huge lines of credit off of contracts they have been awarded. In the spring many farmers borrow money at low interest rates to plant the fields and pay back in the fall. Why do they do this? They can make more of a percentage then what the loan is costing them and they use the profits elsewhere as needed to grow their business. So does the OP borrow money and take a chance at making it or does he slowly build his business over years to build up enough cash flow to take it on himself. Here's what I say, if he has what it takes to borrow the funds and make it then good. If he doesn't have it he could be in business for 10 yrs and still not have the cash flow.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

LapeerLandscape;2042545 said:


> I am not a fan of the card but they are almost a must. If you think rewards and free money are not charged to you at the purchase your blind. The business owners have all that figured into the price, trust me I give a discount for cash but I am just a small time guy. I am sure the big corps all play the percentage.


Of course it is figured into their pricing, but 99% of the time, you're not going to get a discount for cash. Just not realistic at most places I use my card.


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

SnowGeekJason;2042146 said:


> Hello, I work in South East Michigan Metro Detroit area and i have an amazing opportunity to Clear 2 huge apartment towers parking lots and sidewalks. Only problem it I do not have the capitol to go a month or so without being paid and for the estimated 8 tons of salt needed per clearing. plus needing another truck to handle the other 5 commercial and 30 residential contracts i have. (Billing at end of month) If the price per clearing is about $8,000 and the trigger is 1in for salt and 2in for plowing is it a bad idea to ask for a down payment of $40,000 or so? Average events range from 10-15 throughout the year .
> _____
> Opps ya sorry meant 8 thousand pounds. I do see your point regarding the credit This is our third year in the plow business. Never really taken a loan out besides on the Truck and plow. But yes the Property is fairly large and requires lots of sidewalk clearing more than anything along with 5 loading docks with 4-6 degree grades. With about 450,000 square feet to work with its appartments mixed with a shopping plaza.


with pricing like this for 10 acres, he doesnt even need to worry about any of the above conversation. He wont get the contract.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Maclawnco;2042572 said:


> with pricing like this for 10 acres, he doesnt even need to worry about any of the above conversation. He wont get the contract.


We have a Winner...The Pricing is out of line on top of the fact..The Property manager is trolling the price..Trust me..He won't get the contract..

To the OP..This one might be a bit out of your wheelhouse at this time..I give you credit for wanting to build your business..Dont dive head first on this one and damage your business your trying to build..Lots of keyboard Experts on here(Fred)..Slow and steady wins the race


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Also you might wanna look into SIMA and the ASCA for the education aspect those association will give you so in the future you will be more equipted to grow the snow end of your business...Good Luck to you this winter Jason


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

FredG;2042469 said:


> Jim, It is very simple, Don't start non there won't be none. Everybody has a opinion. I learned a long time ago how to keep my mouth shut and act like a gentleman. I also learned if somebody runs them lips to take action.
> 
> I see these 19 year old kids trying to be good earners and productive citizens got more sense than most of the elders. Of course they are going to make mistakes we all did and still do.
> 
> ...


Well said Fred! You have to grab at the golden ring overtime it comes around.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2042569 said:


> I don't think we have enough info, background, credit report on the OP to say if he can or should take on this endeavor but it takes money to make money. There are large contractors that pull huge lines of credit off of contracts they have been awarded. In the spring many farmers borrow money at low interest rates to plant the fields and pay back in the fall. Why do they do this? They can make more of a percentage then what the loan is costing them and they use the profits elsewhere as needed to grow their business. So does the OP borrow money and take a chance at making it or does he slowly build his business over years to build up enough cash flow to take it on himself. Here's what I say, if he has what it takes to borrow the funds and make it then good. If he doesn't have it he could be in business for 10 yrs and still not have the cash flow.


I agree totally.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Maclawnco;2042572 said:


> with pricing like this for 10 acres, he doesnt even need to worry about any of the above conversation. He wont get the contract.


I hadn't noticed the sq footage figure, but that would be way out of line for this area as well.


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## zlssefi (Dec 29, 2011)

FredG;2042527 said:


> Good for you, You are a ambitious young man with a lot of heart. Hows it feel to have money and the real estate, Maybe the lexus or Cadillac for your wife and just the feeling of being a good earner and the bills are payed with ease (most of the time) Sit at your office when not in the field and just watch it grow. Enjoy your new purchases, investment on new technology for equipment. Headaches are headaches deal with them and fix them financial etc.
> 
> Do you got the former owner payed off or were you lucky enough to have the capitol.


I had a two year note to pay off the old owner, paid that off as well as a bank loan for 100k for startup costs. We used a line of credit for two years after that and have been on our own dime ever since. great feeling!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

zlssefi;2042672 said:


> I had a two year note to pay off the old owner, paid that off as well as a bank loan for 100k for startup costs. We used a line of credit for two years after that and have been on our own dime ever since. great feeling!


Good for you. You made it happen and it come together for you.. Best of luck


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

The only time to request a payment for materials is when it's a specific / custom item in being purchased for the job, for commodity items like salt no.
When heading into a new season you should at a minimum have 3months of cash reserves put away to cover wages - operating expenses so you're not financially strapped until you start seeing payments coming in.
If a loan was taken out for cover materials your 1st payment will be due long before you get paid for the 1st event. During this time there will be financial stress, credit card balances will be on the rise and hope you don't have a major breakdown. 
When it comes to risk assessment the individual signing up for the risk can only make the call.

The was some very good advice given along with some that was questionable advice. 
Snow removal varies so much from year to year, that being said I take a conservation approach to my snow business when it come to acquiring debt for it. I'm sure there's plenty of guys that have the same thought.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

FredG;2042469 said:


> Jim, It is very simple, Don't start non there won't be none. Everybody has a opinion. I learned a long time ago how to keep my mouth shut and act like a gentleman. I also learned if somebody runs them lips to take action.
> 
> I see these 19 year old kids trying to be good earners and productive citizens got more sense than most of the elders. Of course they are going to make mistakes we all did and still do.
> 
> ...


I've read boatloads of bad terrible advice here through the years, but this is certainly some of the worst of it............

If you feel there's an elevated chance of not getting paid, it's not worth the risk going forward, there's plenty of paying work available. If your goal isn't to collect all money's owed at the end of the day/week/season, it's not a business or career, but a risky hobby. And, there's far better hobbies out there that require less cash outlay, like fishing, hunting, prostitution, etc.....


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## born2farm (Dec 24, 2007)

BUFF;2042877 said:


> The only time to request a payment for materials is when it's a specific / custom item in being purchased for the job, for commodity items like salt no.
> When heading into a new season you should at a minimum have 3months of cash reserves put away to cover wages - operating expenses so you're not financially strapped until you start seeing payments coming in.
> If a loan was taken out for cover materials your 1st payment will be due long before you get paid for the 1st event. During this time there will be financial stress, credit card balances will be on the rise and hope you don't have a major breakdown.
> When it comes to risk assessment the individual signing up for the risk can only make the call.
> ...


This is great advice and I am in no way trying to pick a fight or single anybody out, but can you honestly say that from the beginning you were able to stick to your 3 months cash flow rule? I know it is great advice, but it is also hard to do for a young guy starting out. Again I am not trying to start any wars, but I have always been curious when some of you are giving advice just what your background is. The principle is all the same, but things are different starting a business today, than they were 20 years ago (from what I gather). I know you all mean well by the advice, but with some of you have been in business for a while, or took over a family company you may have forgotten or never known the struggles of business start up.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jomama45;2042885 said:


> I've read boatloads of bad terrible advice here through the years, but this is certainly some of the worst of it............
> 
> If you feel there's an elevated chance of not getting paid, it's not worth the risk going forward, there's plenty of paying work available. If your goal isn't to collect all money's owed at the end of the day/week/season, it's not a business or career, but a risky hobby. And, there's far better hobbies out there that require less cash outlay, like fishing, hunting, prostitution, etc.....[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

born2farm;2042910 said:


> This is great advice and I am in no way trying to pick a fight or single anybody out, but can you honestly say that from the beginning you were able to stick to your 3 months cash flow rule? I know it is great advice, but it is also hard to do for a young guy starting out. Again I am not trying to start any wars, but I have always been curious when some of you are giving advice just what your background is. The principle is all the same, but things are different starting a business today, than they were 20 years ago (from what I gather). I know you all mean well by the advice, but with some of you have been in business for a while, or took over a family company you may have forgotten or never known the struggles of business start up.


Brock, This is a public site and your opinion is just as good as anybody else. No need to apologize or worry about bullies. In my business the rules I go by are the ones I think will improve my integrity and profits.

I see nothing wrong with a 19 year old with dreams. Ok so he does not have the capitol. This does not mean he could not get some money somewhere and be a successful business man. It will be a struggle for him starting out as it was for us all.

The young man has not even returned from the fiasco that the op post has become. Never underestimate the ability's of a 19 year old kid. There are plenty of success story's of young men making it over the hump. There is a good success story in a upper post from a young man. He started when he was 19 and 16 years later he is living the dream and a very good earner.

Good post by the way. I'm interested to see what responses you get.

Best of luck.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2042892 said:


> Did you grow up recently?


Unfortunately it would appear so....... My kids are on the threshold of making choices that could have a long term affect them.



born2farm;2042910 said:


> This is great advice and I am in no way trying to pick a fight or single anybody out, but can you honestly say that from the beginning you were able to stick to your 3 months cash flow rule? I know it is great advice, but it is also hard to do for a young guy starting out. Again I am not trying to start any wars, but I have always been curious when some of you are giving advice just what your background is. The principle is all the same, but things are different starting a business today, than they were 20 years ago (from what I gather). I know you all mean well by the advice, but with some of you have been in business for a while, or took over a family company you may have forgotten or never known the struggles of business start up.


It's pretty easy to stick to the 3month rule and as time moves on shoot for 6months and then a year. 
There's a level of discipline required to put away 3months of cushion. The discipline it's take to do this will set a solid foundation for making wise/sound decisions down the road in life and business. 
Timing is important in life/business and sometimes it's better to hold off before taking huge steps. There's always another opportunity down the road and it may come at a time when the level of risk is greatly reduced.


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

Randall Ave;2042482 said:


> Was just thinking that, there is not much mention of the equipment he has, employies, does he have a yard for storage? Did he check on insurance requirments. I'm not saying he shouldn't try this, but you have to think things thru, is the pool full before you jump in.


Hello, Good point. As of now I have 4 Employees, I have a A few sheds and two two care garages for storage. I know not much at all. i currently have a 2014 F-250 with a 8'2 DXT 3 year old TORO snow blowers, walk behind salter and a 850 lbs tailgate spreader. Insurance i have as well I have a 2 million dollar General Liability policy. A Second truck I would be hopefully acquiring by the first snow.


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

zlssefi;2042514 said:


> This is a tough one. When i was 19 i bought out a company that plowed three busy accounts on an airport. Prior to this my snow experience consisted of plowing 20 driveways, once per storm. It was a huge chunk to bite off, way more that most people would have tried. These accounts require 24/7 non stop service and I wouldnt change it for the world. These accounts truly changed who I am from who i would have been. That was 16 years ago and we have only grown from there. Dont be afraid to take some risk, but dont be foolish either. If you feel that your equipment is sufficient and your experience is as well, give it a shot! let us know how you do!


Thanks! I plan to. Last year I went balls to the walls and took on 80 Residential and 2 Commercial properties and it took us about 12-15 hours to do. Me and two other guys always hauled ass and got **** done. I feel like if it have this attitude We can do it. The only problem is we had 23in of snow with 36 hours on super bowl Sunday and that was a bloody disaster it tool us about 30 Hours to get everything done a handful of very angry clients. But the commercials always said I was one of the best companies they had. about 10% of residents said differently.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

SnowGeekJason;2043114 said:


> Hello, Good point. As of now I have 4 Employees, I have a A few sheds and two two care garages for storage. I know not much at all. i currently have a 2014 F-250 with a 8'2 DXT 3 year old TORO snow blowers, walk behind salter and a 850 lbs tailgate spreader. Insurance i have as well I have a 2 million dollar General Liability policy. A Second truck I would be hopefully acquiring by the first snow.


Well, its a start.


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

Buswell Forest;2042534 said:


> Nothing ventured, nothing gained. See if you can bill for a month's worth of materials up front. Get a credit card. Line of credit, right there. And it builds credit. If you have one, and have made regular in full paymnets for 6 months, get them to increase the limit.


Trust me I have tried with three different major credit card companies. They all said I have no credit history so they cant offer anything even with my bank.


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

JimMarshall;2042537 said:


> You should have a card anyways and use it for most of your purchases. So much easier on the bookkeeping end. Make it a good rewards card and get free money out of it.


I cant agree more. Only problem is I have a Debit card for tacking and stuff but no credit history for to sign up for a credit card.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

SnowGeekJason;2043122 said:


> I cant agree more. Only problem is I have a Debit card for tacking and stuff but no credit history for to sign up for a credit card.


Is the truck not in ur name?


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

SnowGeekJason;2043122 said:


> I cant agree more. Only problem is I have a Debit card for tacking and stuff but no credit history for to sign up for a credit card.


You can still get a credit card, the limit will probably be pretty low. Im 21, I got a discover card first, which had a $500 limit. Two years later I got the Venture card that has no yearly fee and they gave me a $5,000 limit right off the bat.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

SnowGeekJason;2043114 said:


> Hello, Good point. As of now I have 4 Employees, I have a A few sheds and two two care garages for storage. I know not much at all. i currently have a 2014 F-250 with a 8'2 DXT 3 year old TORO snow blowers, walk behind salter and a 850 lbs tailgate spreader. Insurance i have as well I have a 2 million dollar General Liability policy. A Second truck I would be hopefully acquiring by the first snow.


When you say 4 employees, does that mean you pay workman comp, unemployment and payroll taxes on them?

Also, 12-15 hrs to complete your route is crazy and unprofessional. You'll always lose clients every year. It's good you are a go getter, but you have to be smarter. Start by performing all your work flawlessly and in a timely manner. Cut your time down to 5-6 hrs for completion, either by hiring more help, adding equipment or reducing your customer base(maybe a combination of all those things). Concentrate on quality over quantity. Build a reliable reputation and you'll go far. Don't worry about how "large or small" your accounts are, sometimes smaller accounts are more profitable.


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

jhall22guitar;2043130 said:


> You can still get a credit card, the limit will probably be pretty low. Im 21, I got a discover card first, which had a $500 limit. Two years later I got the Venture card that has no yearly fee and they gave me a $5,000 limit right off the bat.


I'm Not sure about that, the amount of times i Have tried they all have said the same thing. I have no credit histroy


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

WIPensFan;2043134 said:


> When you say 4 employees, does that mean you pay workman comp, unemployment and payroll taxes on them?
> 
> Also, 12-15 hrs to complete your route is crazy and unprofessional. You'll always lose clients every year. It's good you are a go getter, but you have to be smarter. Start by performing all your work flawlessly and in a timely manner. Cut your time down to 5-6 hrs for completion, either by hiring more help, adding equipment or reducing your customer base(maybe a combination of all those things). Concentrate on quality over quantity. Build a reliable reputation and you'll go far. Don't worry about how "large or small" your accounts are, sometimes smaller accounts are more profitable.


Yes To all of the above regarding employees. Agreed but we did say to some customers that were late in signing the contract that it would be longer. Then expected so i was not exactly doing that terrible. They rather have had somebody then nobody.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

SnowGeekJason;2043145 said:


> Yes To all of the above regarding employees. Agreed but we did say to some customers that were late in signing the contract that it would be longer. Then expected so i was not exactly doing that terrible. They rather have had somebody then nobody.


Ok, thanks for answering that.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

SnowGeekJason;2043142 said:


> I'm Not sure about that, the amount of times i Have tried they all have said the same thing. I have no credit histroy


I had no credit history for my discover card also, I got that when I was 18, probably a month after my birthday. Then got the venture card as I said. If you haven't, try discover although they might not give you a high credit limit, so it wont help much, except with helping you establish a credit history.

Thanks to those I bought a (used) car pretty fast when my truck died, hoping to get back in a truck by the end of 2016.

Sounds like your head is in the game, so keep trying. And as others have said, quality can do a lot with helping you expand, I saw you said your route took 10-15 hours, the max I used to try and keep mine was 8. try to get it a little lower, and the quality will pay for itself in new business.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

SnowGeekJason;2043142 said:


> I'm Not sure about that, the amount of times i Have tried they all have said the same thing. I have no credit histroy


You could get a secured card to help build your credit.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Do you have a loan on your truck? A lot of people will say pay cash for everything, but this country doesn't work that way. If your gonna be in business you have to start to build your credit history.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Or you could take out a small loan from your credit union to help build your credit


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Randall Ave;2043252 said:


> Do you have a loan on your truck? A lot of people will say pay cash for everything, but this country doesn't work that way. If your gonna be in business you have to start to build your credit history.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

JimMarshall;2043229 said:


> You could get a secured card to help build your credit.


I took my credit score from 0 to 690 in 6 months. Here's how.
Go online and apply for a capital one card. You give them money down and they give you a credit card, I got a $500 credit limit for $200 or so. You won't be denied, and capital one is considered a lender and can post to your credit report. Interest is 25% but it doesn't matter. Spend $100, pay $125 each month on time for 6 mos.
take 2k to your credit union (if you don't go through a credit union start now) and take out a cd with a 6mo machurity. At my credit union we were able to set it up to where I used that 2k to pay off the cd with no penalty. After 6mos I didn't have anything left in the cd but I had credit. Do everything in your personal name first. After you build your rating you can start applying things to your business accounts/loans.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

I truly feel you may need to step back on this account. Look at YOUR operating numbers that will tell you what you need for cash flow to carry you 60 days. If you can bill after each event. That also helps a lot with cash flow. Please be very carefully with credit and credit lines. When you are small it can seem like a easy answer but can have big impacts should the little thing goes wrong like not getting paid. One half season could put you out of business with lots of bills to pay. I came close one time on a house addition. The people ran out of money without telling me. lucky for me I had deposits to cover to that point. Just a little time but time is money. I now run my business on cash no credit. I buy my trucks and equipment cash. I also do performance payment on ALL projects. 

I have been reading this thread carefully. A couple of weeks ago I payed for 50 ton tons of salt, changed the oil in the loader, service the skidsteer and fixed a couple of minor other things. It's all cash out in hopes of making money on mother nature. I brought up a retainer fee to a couple of other guys in the business all running at least 4 trucks and loader. It seemed like you are right why not a deposit worked off the first bill or event. I take a deposit on every other job I do WHY not snowplowing???? As a industry should we be taking them, how many guy's have been burned over the years. I'm not afraid to admit I have. Yes go to court get a court order but again it's more money to get money maybe! I know next would be go seasonal but not everyone wants that in my area so now what. In business its all about risk but managed risk MAYBE the industry should require them. it may stop some of this national service provider crap that goes on. 
at the end of the day the customer holds all the power in snowplowing that needs to change so it just seems to make since to me.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

SnowGeekJason;2043117 said:


> Thanks! I plan to. Last year I went balls to the walls and took on 80 Residential and 2 Commercial properties and it took us about 12-15 hours to do. Me and two other guys always hauled ass and got **** done. I feel like if it have this attitude We can do it. The only problem is we had 23in of snow with 36 hours on super bowl Sunday and that was a bloody disaster it tool us about 30 Hours to get everything done a handful of very angry clients. But the commercials always said I was one of the best companies they had. about 10% of residents said differently.


This pretty much sums it up....Your not ready to tackle an account like this and service everything else with what you have equipment wise..

You seem like your a hard working guy with a good atitude..But your just not ready for this one..Whats your plan when your one truck craps out at 3am..Somehow this thread has turned into credit builder 101..

Maybe you should focus on building your resi and small commercial base at this time..I would hate for a young guy with a good atitude to hurt his company name taking on way more than he can handle..


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5;2043400 said:


> This pretty much sums it up....Your not ready to tackle an account like this and service everything else with what you have equipment wise..
> 
> You seem like your a hard working guy with a good atitude..But your just not ready for this one..Whats your plan when your one truck craps out at 3am..Somehow this thread has turned into credit builder 101..
> 
> Maybe you should focus on building your resi and small commercial base at this time..I would hate for a young guy with a good atitude to hurt his company name taking on way more than he can handle..


I guess your right. If he was banging last year with only the one truck and does not have another truck to dedicate to the job he wants to bid. He is out.

The credit thing I will leave alone, He will have to figure it out for himself.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

WIPensFan;2043134 said:


> When you say 4 employees, does that mean you pay workman comp, unemployment and payroll taxes on them?
> 
> Also, 12-15 hrs to complete your route is crazy and unprofessional. You'll always lose clients every year. It's good you are a go getter, but you have to be smarter. Start by performing all your work flawlessly and in a timely manner. Cut your time down to 5-6 hrs for completion, either by hiring more help, adding equipment or reducing your customer base(maybe a combination of all those things). Concentrate on quality over quantity. Build a reliable reputation and you'll go far. Don't worry about how "large or small" your accounts are, sometimes smaller accounts are more profitable.


Good point, I agree with the time thing and the Quality or quantity. I would say if you can't complete in 7 hrs somethings wrong. I guess I was not thinking of equipment owned. That puts him out. As far as the credit for start up that should be the last thing to worry about without dedicated equipment. I get excited when I see these young guts want to be good earners and productive citizens. We all know most are more interested in Women, partying.

I do believe in taking risk but you have to have equipment to perform service with some ease. The start up costs is something he will have to make work or stand down.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5;2043400 said:


> This pretty much sums it up....Your not ready to tackle an account like this and service everything else with what you have equipment wise..
> 
> You seem like your a hard working guy with a good atitude..But your just not ready for this one..Whats your plan when your one truck craps out at 3am..Somehow this thread has turned into credit builder 101..
> 
> Maybe you should focus on building your resi and small commercial base at this time..I would hate for a young guy with a good atitude to hurt his company name taking on way more than he can handle..


He will probably need at least a skidder, He takes to many parking spots up because he can't stack his client will probably complain. Then he has to hire somebody.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Freshwater;2043297 said:


> I took my credit score from 0 to 690 in 6 months. Here's how.
> Go online and apply for a capital one card. You give them money down and they give you a credit card, I got a $500 credit limit for $200 or so. You won't be denied, and capital one is considered a lender and can post to your credit report. Interest is 25% but it doesn't matter. Spend $100, pay $125 each month on time for 6 mos.
> take 2k to your credit union (if you don't go through a credit union start now) and take out a cd with a 6mo machurity. At my credit union we were able to set it up to where I used that 2k to pay off the cd with no penalty. After 6mos I didn't have anything left in the cd but I had credit. Do everything in your personal name first. After you build your rating you can start applying things to your business accounts/loans.


But why, I got a Capital One credit card, didn't give them a cent down, and I don't pay any extra if I pay in full each month. my APR is 17% and I am 21 also.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jhall22guitar;2044249 said:


> But why, I got a Capital One credit card, didn't give them a cent down, and I don't pay any extra if I pay in full each month. my APR is 17% and I am 21 also.


That 17% percent is not bad for 21 years of age. Your beacon score is not all the banks look at. You could have a 750 beacon score with $5000 being the most you ever borrowed.

Than you have the fella with a 680 beacon score that has car credit and a mortgage on his report. Even if you have a higher score the guy with the 680 is more likely to get the loan. Meaning the guy with the 30k car credit loan and a 100k mortgage has a higher loaned credit amount. Your high beacon score is not all they look at, Car credit and mortgage are you strong credit builders.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

FredG;2044280 said:


> That 17% percent is not bad for 21 years of age. Your beacon score is not all the banks look at. You could have a 750 beacon score with $5000 being the most you ever borrowed.
> 
> Than you have the fella with a 680 beacon score that has car credit and a mortgage on his report. Even if you have a higher score the guy with the 680 is more likely to get the loan. Meaning the guy with the 30k car credit loan and a 100k mortgage has a higher loaned credit amount. Your high beacon score is not all they look at, Car credit and mortgage are you strong credit builders.


Well currently I have 15K in credit limit, combined between two cards. Got the Discover when I was 18, Capital One when I was 19. Bought a car, sadly my truck died, $8000 loan with low interest at 20.

Im just saying I can't figure out why he can't get even a low limit credit card, although I did have some friends have the same issue. Check your credit report, as a friend found out someone had used his info for a comcast cable account that was hurting him for being overdue by years or something. That fixed things for him.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jhall22guitar;2044328 said:


> Well currently I have 15K in credit limit, combined between two cards. Got the Discover when I was 18, Capital One when I was 19. Bought a car, sadly my truck died, $8000 loan with low interest at 20.
> 
> Im just saying I can't figure out why he can't get even a low limit credit card, although I did have some friends have the same issue. Check your credit report, as a friend found out someone had used his info for a comcast cable account that was hurting him for being overdue by years or something. That fixed things for him.


The cards give you 15k respectable at your age, You also have the car credit for for $8k. Thats a good start should be golden.

op probably could get a minimal CC, this will only increase his beacon score. This will not get his high credit were it needs to be. Were I'm confused he claims to have a 2014 ford or something. This truck has to be in the $25k to 30k appox. and claims to be financed. He either has not been paying long enough or maybe he was late a couple times.

It's not like in the day Ok freds late all the time but he's like a clock. Now you pay as agreed or this will show on your report and the banks take that serious. I payed it is not good enough anymore.


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## SnowGeekJason (Nov 17, 2014)

FredG;2044382 said:


> The cards give you 15k respectable at your age, You also have the car credit for for $8k. Thats a good start should be golden.
> 
> op probably could get a minimal CC, this will only increase his beacon score. This will not get his high credit were it needs to be. Were I'm confused he claims to have a 2014 ford or something. This truck has to be in the $25k to 30k appox. and claims to be financed. He either has not been paying long enough or maybe he was late a couple times.
> 
> It's not like in the day Ok freds late all the time but he's like a clock. Now you pay as agreed or this will show on your report and the banks take that serious. I payed it is not good enough anymore.


Hope i can clear things up here.

I really should check Discover and Capitol. I only have tried VISA and AMEX. i bought the truck was when I was 17 So it had to go through my Grandpa which he has an Amazing credit score where i was able to get 2.4% APR for 75 Month. (Seriously that is the time frame and APR.) Truck was about $45,000 out the door. And i just write a check to my grandpa each month. That's why. I will check into to see if someone has been using my name. But I did just get a loan in my name for $1,200 for a attachment for a mower with my mother as a Co-signer. Maybe i should have her as a co-signer on a credit card? So i guess its a start. And Ik what you might say get truck re-financed in my name. I would love to but i really like 2.4% rather then 8. something.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

SnowGeekJason;2044409 said:



> Hope i can clear things up here.
> 
> I really should check Discover and Capitol. I only have tried VISA and AMEX. i bought the truck was when I was 17 So it had to go through my Grandpa which he has an Amazing credit score where i was able to get 2.4% APR for 75 Month. (Seriously that is the time frame and APR.) Truck was about $45,000 out the door. And i just write a check to my grandpa each month. That's why. I will check into to see if someone has been using my name. But I did just get a loan in my name for $1,200 for a attachment for a mower with my mother as a Co-signer. Maybe i should have her as a co-signer on a credit card? So i guess its a start. And Ik what you might say get truck re-financed in my name. I would love to but i really like 2.4% rather then 8. something.


Check out Capital One, its a VISA card through them, and they have me a high credit limit right off the bat. Discover approval was instant online in my case though, but it has taken awhile to increase my limit.


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## 1HOTCAT (Dec 29, 2013)

I might be able to help you out. I am a city next to you and most of my trucks are servicing this area, and I just added another one this coming season, which might be looking for some plowing work. I have extra capital for the season as I have been doing this work for over 20 years and have credit at all of the salt places around. Nice to see a young guy like you in the business. Either we can go in to this together, or I would pay you for the lead. Get in touch with me if either could work out for you


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnowGeekJason;2044409 said:


> Hope i can clear things up here.
> 
> I really should check Discover and Capitol. I only have tried VISA and AMEX. i bought the truck was when I was 17 So it had to go through my Grandpa which he has an Amazing credit score where i was able to get 2.4% APR for 75 Month. (Seriously that is the time frame and APR.) Truck was about $45,000 out the door. And i just write a check to my grandpa each month. That's why. I will check into to see if someone has been using my name. But I did just get a loan in my name for $1,200 for a attachment for a mower with my mother as a Co-signer. Maybe i should have her as a co-signer on a credit card? So i guess its a start. And Ik what you might say get truck re-financed in my name. I would love to but i really like 2.4% rather then 8. something.


Jason, Send a check to your grandpa but make sure he sends your check with your name on it or send it directly yourself. The bank will see your grandpa is not making the payments and you are. Wait a year or so and the bank may let you on the note with your grandpa. If they don't let you on you still have proof you made these payments. The truck credit is what you want.

The attachment payment will help to. That truck credit is what you need to get your high credit at a respectable amount.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

FredG;2044280 said:


> That 17% percent is not bad for 21 years of age. Your beacon score is not all the banks look at. You could have a 750 beacon score with $5000 being the most you ever borrowed.
> 
> Than you have the fella with a 680 beacon score that has car credit and a mortgage on his report. Even if you have a higher score the guy with the 680 is more likely to get the loan. Meaning the guy with the 30k car credit loan and a 100k mortgage has a higher loaned credit amount. Your high beacon score is not all they look at, Car credit and mortgage are you strong credit builders.


When we bought our house, my wife and my credit jumped around 100 points each..... Now its pretty damn good for my age.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

jhall22guitar;2044249 said:


> But why, I got a Capital One credit card, didn't give them a cent down, and I don't pay any extra if I pay in full each month. my APR is 17% and I am 21 also.


Capital one has a few different level of card they offer. I only qualified for their lowest card. I was already in my 30's with 0 credit history. I would have been better being young like you guys. I'm golden now.

Having good credit is the single biggest reason that I was able to upgrade to newer, better, and more equipment. Even though I do try to pay cash as much as possible, having credit has been key.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I stick with my original answer... Go for it! Charge a down payment, better yet offer a prepay discount....


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2044540 said:


> When we bought our house, my wife and my credit jumped around 100 points each..... Now its pretty damn good for my age.


Good for you, Your all set.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Freshwater;2044573 said:


> Capital one has a few different level of card they offer. I only qualified for their lowest card. I was already in my 30's with 0 credit history. I would have been better being young like you guys. I'm golden now.
> 
> Having good credit is the single biggest reason that I was able to upgrade to newer, better, and more equipment. Even though I do try to pay cash as much as possible, having credit has been key.


You have to have something active on your credit report. I agree on the cash thing when possible. You never know when that truck takes its last breath and not worth repairing. Sometimes there's a pile of cash sometimes there's not.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

SnowGeekJason;2044409 said:


> Hope i can clear things up here.
> 
> I really should check Discover and Capitol. I only have tried VISA and AMEX. i bought the truck was when I was 17 So it had to go through my Grandpa which he has an Amazing credit score where i was able to get 2.4% APR for 75 Month. (Seriously that is the time frame and APR.) Truck was about $45,000 out the door. And i just write a check to my grandpa each month. That's why. I will check into to see if someone has been using my name. But I did just get a loan in my name for $1,200 for a attachment for a mower with my mother as a Co-signer. Maybe i should have her as a co-signer on a credit card? So i guess its a start. And Ik what you might say get truck re-financed in my name. I would love to but i really like 2.4% rather then 8. something.


Instead of getting credit cards right out of the chute and getting tangled up with high interest fees, see if Grandpa would pay off the truck loan and sign over the title to you. Then you go to your bank and take out a loan using the truck as collateral to pay off Grandpa, depending on what the pay off is and if your short for equity set up an agreement with Grandpa. Sure you would get the 2.4% interest rate but it shouldn't exceed 6% which is more attractive than 18-21% you'll get on a CC.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

BUFF;2044956 said:


> Instead of getting credit cards right out of the chute and getting tangled up with high interest fees, see if Grandpa would pay off the truck loan and sign over the title to you. Then you go to your bank and take out a loan using the truck as collateral to pay off Grandpa, depending on what the pay off is and if your short for equity set up an agreement with Grandpa. Sure you would get the 2.4% interest rate but it shouldn't exceed 6% which is more attractive than 18-21% you'll get on a CC.


Credit card isn't going to cost him any interest if he doesn't carry a balance.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

JimMarshall;2044966 said:


> Credit card isn't going to cost him any interest if he doesn't carry a balance.


This is true until it's used for things you don't have the cash for and you don't pay it off.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

BUFF;2044977 said:


> This is true until it's used for things you don't have the cash for and you don't pay it off.


In the scenario you described, he still wouldn't have the money to pay for something. This post has turned into talking about building credit. Paying off a credit card every month will build his credit for free


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2044981 said:


> In the scenario you described, he still wouldn't have the money to pay for something. This post has turned into talking about building credit. Paying off a credit card every month will build his credit for free


You have to have a respectful high credit. These small cc aren't going to do it. All is cc is going to do is increase his beacon score. You could have a 800 beacon score with a 1000.00 high credit. This won't help. You need to be at the very least 12 to 14k to be where he needs to be.

If Grandpa can pay the balance as stated above he could use the truck for collateral. Other than that he needs at the very least pay that truck payment with his check.

I got my daughter a car and they would not let me co sign I had to buy the car for her. With advice from my banker she paid the note with her check. 1yr later she was on that note with me. She has since bought a house and doing good.


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

But what about aunt Sophia?


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

Every single accounts i have are mounthly and they start payments 
On Nov the first,,,,,,,


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

F250/XLS;2047045 said:


> Every single accounts i have are mounthly and they start payments
> On Nov the first,,,,,,,


Are you talking about invoicing Nov 1 and expect payment by Dec. 1 or shortly after?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

FredG;2047054 said:


> Are you talking about invoicing Nov 1 and expect payment by Dec. 1 or shortly after?


I do,or somewhere around that.


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

FredG;2047054 said:


> Are you talking about invoicing Nov 1 and expect payment by Dec. 1 or shortly after?


Invoicing in August and payments starting Nov 1 st.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

F250/XLS;2047065 said:


> Invoicing in August and payments starting Nov 1 st.


So you invoice 1 time in nov. and monthly on same invoice till last payment.


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

FredG;2047078 said:


> So you invoice 1 time in nov. and monthly on same invoice till last payment.


Exactly,,,,


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

grandview;2047064 said:


> I do,or somewhere around that.


Ya me to, I put a loader on a friend of mine job. One of them 3rd party deals it was 90 days +. I waited about 45 days and pulled my loader out of there. If there accounts payable can not be more efficient than that neither can I.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Superior L & L;2042195 said:


> True salt supplier giving credit ? Lol


I guess your right, American does not want to give credit,


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