# Snow Plowing vs. Snow Removal vs. Ice Management



## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

I advertise my business as "snow plowing". I vision the words "snow removal" as a front end loader and a dump truck with the snow being removed from the property. I bring this subject up because of liability issues. I am not a lawyer. I am just trying to cover myself in case there is a slip and fall. This way I can say I plowed your snow I never said I was going to remove the snow.

I do not have a tailgate spreader so I am not in that end of the business. I do not think that I would use the words "ice management". I would take that as the ice on my property has been treated and is safe to walk on. I would tell my customers that salt (or pick your favorite chemical) has been spread. Proceed with caution.

I would like your opinions, pro or con. I do not expect everyone or maybe anyone to agree with me.

Thank you for your time and responses! 


Rick S
d/b/a The Lettuce Man
lettuce help you


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

I agree with you. That would be how I interpret those terms as well. 

I have operated under a few different names over the years, anything from "Snow Plowing" to "Snow & Ice Control", to "Snow Removal Services".


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## qualitycut (Jan 13, 2008)

I think there are different interpretations, some people may consider removal as plowing as you are removing snow of of the lot and making it usable. So in a way you are removing snow.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

FWIW, I would say that "snow and ice management" could or would incorporate snow plowing, de-icing, anti-icing, snow removal and relocation, pre and post season site inspection and repairs, obstruction identification (stakes at curbs, fire hydrants and catch basins),snow fence intallation, signage installation, clients needs assesment, site patrols, documentation, site maps, storm management strategy, etc...into a whole package custom tailored for the clients needs, site conditions and exposure to liabilty.

Any part of that package would and could be a stand alone service.

On a liability standpoint, its important to identify whose resposible for each service...but I highly doubt you would be excluded from a lawsuit if someone fell on ice in a parking lot you only plowed and didn't salt.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Johnny's "snow & Ice management" definition is great.

"Snow removal" is a very common and loose term. You are actually "removing" snow from the hard surface you are to maintain by plowing it off. 

I wouldn't get too hung up or anal about it, but that's just me.


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## adan (Nov 24, 2010)

Snow and Ice Management or Snow Services


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

JohnnyU: not to threadcrap the thread that I started but: I like your user name but JohnnyU. Did Johnny Unitas have any influence on that name?


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

thelettuceman;1135201 said:


> JohnnyU: not to threadcrap the thread that I started but: I like your user name but JohnnyU. Did Johnny Unitas have any influence on that name?


Nope, it's just my name: John Unes. I often had the nickname of "Johhny" while growing up.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Yes there are differences which have been covered. It all depends on your capabilities and your contract wording.

My official company name includes "Snow and Ice Management", but I have different DBAs to cover the different aspects of the duties:

snow plowing
snow removal and relocation
ice management
storm management 

Currently I only plow snow, so I use that DBA. When I have more services available I will use those DBAs for those purposes and they will be a division of the actual corporation.

The actual company name is of little consequence, but the trade name or DBA name will support what you actually do. This is also helpful in case only one service is contracted out. An example would be a snow plowing only company using you for their removal and relocation needs (ie you load it into trailers/dump trucks and dump it in a field somewhere). This is also helpful to understand what part of your business operations get the most profit and what services don't. Easy to cut them or sub them out if they aren't profitable for you.


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1135223 said:


> Yes there are differences which have been covered. It all depends on your capabilities and your contract wording.
> 
> My official company name includes "Snow and Ice Management", but I have different DBAs to cover the different aspects of the duties:
> 
> ...


good advice. is this the definition of shadow corps? I hadn't thought about that.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

NW Snow Removal;1135242 said:


> good advice. is this the definition of shadow corps? I hadn't thought about that.


What the hell are you talking about?


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

accounting slang? I don't know. we don't use any of those tricks.


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## StratfordPusher (Dec 20, 2006)

*Ice & Snow Management*

On advise from a lawyer who is also a good customer I went with Ice & Snow Management and snow removal services on all my contracts and adverts.....

It kinda covers all bases....

My 2 cents worth...


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

NW Snow Removal;1135250 said:


> accounting slang? I don't know. we don't use any of those tricks.


My apologies I read your response wrong. No, not really much to do with accounting for taxes as it does organizing and managing. It gives a better picture as to what your business is actually good at making profits doing. It's used in many different industries with thousands of companies. I use it in my main business and it's helped greatly.

You will have one company and that's the corporation or LLC. Then you have trade names or names the corporation does business under/as, aka DBA. It's most common in manufacturing.

This way you can track your sales and jobs. Let's say your snow plowing is the most profitable but your ice management is actually costing the company money. That alerts you to make a decision to reorganize your ice management operations or to simply cancel them.

You could track your sales and profits by having a division for your residential customers and your commercial customers. Then if you find your residential division isn't as profitable as commercial division, you can decide what is best for the company- reorganize your residential division or drop it and just do commercial contracts.

It's not anything shady or secretive. It also allows room for growth or retraction. What if your company is "Snow and Ice Management" but you find that your snow division isn't doing as good as your ice division so you decide to drop it and revisit it at a later date. Well, if you have DBAs for the division's its simple to stop marketing with that then update your corporate business name (which is a PITA). This gives you flexibility.

So maybe NW Snow Removal would be for remove and relocate but plowing only would be NW Snow Plowing with that being a trade name DBA of your corporation. Then you want to add ice management to your services, so have NW Ice Management added to your corporation as a DBA. Then invoice with those DBAs and they all go into the corporate account.


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## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

Tubby not saying it doesnt work for you, but In my opinion it makes no sense and is way overkill to use all those DBAs. You mention tracking profitabilty/losses as a reason for doing it but this can be very easily accomplished in an accounting software such as Quickbooks Pro by simply associating the segments of your income/expenses with particular items. As an example I have under the Income account I have sub accounts for Plowing, Mowing, Maintenance etc. Why have all those DBAs to confuse customers and you paperwork? What if you plow and do ice control on the same storm for a customer? You gonna send 2 sepaerate invoices from 2 different DBAs? Just trying to understand your though process behind this.


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

> Rick S
> d/b/a The Lettuce Man
> lettuce help you


I really need a cool catch phrase...


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

martyman;1136633 said:


> I really need a cool catch phrase...


How about ,Nobody can "Ketchup "to us in plowing.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Grandview: Another old thread brought back to life !!! I counted three this week. Did I miss any?


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

i saw 4 oldies grandview pulled out & dusted off. LOL all the resposes it brings is how grandview is pulling old threads, some older then his membership, lol


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

BC Handyman;1469562 said:


> i saw 4 oldies grandview pulled out & dusted off. LOL all the resposes it brings is how grandview is pulling old threads, some older then his membership, lol


Maybe Grandview should change his avatar to Gravedigger....:laughing:


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Ditto on the quick books thing - you are way over complicating something that is easily handled thru accounting.

Downfalls of multiple DBA's:

1) Multiple checking accounts - even though the tax id # is the same, you have to have a different checking account for each name.

2) Multiple invoices - different invoice for each dba

3) Allocation of fixed overhead to each dba to evaluate profit / loss

I am a home builder, construction company - my incorporated name reflects that. With this economy, there isn't much building. I have plowed snow for many years under the cnstruction company name but with the change of economy and the branching out of our business, I did a dba - two checking accounts, two invoices. The dba that we went with was purely for advertising purposes - it's hard to sell comercial lawn care under a construction company name, snowplowing it didn't matter.

Do yourself a huge favor - invest in Quick Books Pro or the minimum version that lets you utilize "items". Your "items" replace your dba's, and allow click looks at different sales figures. Our item list covers Snowplowing, Landscape, Property Preservation and Home Construction and items under the main names to cover the detail. With two clicks, I can tell you what we spent on toilets a xyz house or how many bags of sidewalk salt we spread between whatever dates for whatever customer.

If you have any kind of accountant, your initial investment in quick books, both time and money - will probably be paid back the first tax year through accountant savings.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

thelettuceman;1469561 said:


> Grandview: Another old thread brought back to life !!! I counted three this week. Did I miss any?





Dogplow Dodge;1469570 said:


> Maybe Grandview should change his avatar to Gravedigger....:laughing:


Grandview: You have any comment?!!!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

thelettuceman;1469594 said:


> Grandview: You have any comment?!!!


http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=83


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

grandview;1469606 said:


> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=83


How did you get that link? The internet was not invented when that thread started.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

thelettuceman;1469823 said:


> How did you get that link? The internet was not invented when that thread started.


Al Gore's personal archive.


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

I stick with Snow Management and Ice Control.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Al Gore ... He invented the internet !!!!
Grandview ... He hacks into long lost threads !!!!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

thelettuceman;1469918 said:


> Al Gore ... He invented the internet !!!!
> Grandview ... He hacks into long lost threads !!!!


Just for you Lettuceman,

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=27


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