# Customer decides to pay whatever they want??



## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

As a follow-up to my original post: Thread Here I wanted to find a majority opinion on what to really do next.

I apologize now for the lengthy post, and hope I summed up the specifics enough to keep it short.

Thanks in advance for continuing to read about my situation.

Today, I received said payment of $330, short from the original $1,005.00 invoiced amount.

Customer states they never authorized salt, and 2nd push on specific date. (I bill monthly)

I have been servicing these people for nearly 3 years, as I'm good friend's (was?) with the son who's business of whom I've known for nearly 13 years now.

Without airing out the family's dirty laundry, it's a trust-fund setting and the parents micromanage the son's business affairs, including paying his business invoices. I have charged them the same rate whether I push the entire lot, or drop the blade with a lot full of cars.

Extremely long story short, the I've been charging the son's location the same rate on every invoice that I have since he opened this location. $75 to plow, $75 to salt. Since he opened, he's obviously had a lot more cars parked on location, and parked like 'tards. Making clearing the lot more difficult, and liability of hitting a random unaligned vehicle. That being said, I still continue to charge them accordingly. They signed a "per service" agreement back on 4/7/11, and have never disputed the invoices, or the services. After reviewing that agreement, I mistakenly never mentioned any specific time periods for which the pricing shall remain active, nor was there a specific "trigger", but the phrase: "_Snow Plowing of driveways & Parking Lot (zero tolerance)_" <---(*Obviously an oversight on my part looking back*).

On 12/29/12 the son called to advise me that no one was going to be working that Saturday, and to push the lot at the end of the storm/day. He also told me to get a hold of his dad as he thinks his dad needed some locations cleared.

After speaking with the dad, dad wanted me to clear their commercial locations that I quoted them prices for nearly 2 years ago, but never inquired about pricing per this phone call.

After all was said and done, I invoiced at the end December like I have been doing for years. Within 10 minutes of the emailed invoice, the dad calls me going off on a tangent complained about me charging "$140 to do 10 minutes of work" as it was dishonest of me, and I was gauging them. I advised him that it took longer than 10 minutes, and I charged them what I quoted them for this property 2 years ago. Continued to verbally abuse my integrity, and threatened to tie up all of my money in court if it would get that far.

That 9 minutes of verbal abuse ended after I got tired of trying to reason with someone that couldn't understand his negligence.

The mom now sends me an email reply, telling me to revise the invoices and send it back immediately. I took my time responding as I knew it would be taken literally word for word as it would be in writing. Basically saying that based on her husband's phone call, I would not be revising any invoice that was generated for their 3 accounts.

She responded with a final reply that they would make their own changes, and pay accordingly. 
1. Not paying for any salt for any location.
2. Not paying for multiple pushes on son's location.
3. My pricing that I quoted is nearly 2 years old, and "Whatever you quoted almost two years ago certainly does not apply now. "
4. Not paying for son's 2nd location, and would include that location with that location's main bill (but still not paying for that invoice ($140)

Shortly after this email, the son text's me that he would never have agreed to $75 per salt application, and let alone multiple services. (Basically a short case of amnesia all of a sudden after receiving some heat from parents.)

I never responded to her email or the text, as it wouldn't end up making a difference.

In the days following this email, the son "un-friended" me via Facebook, and unlike all of my business endeavors assuming severing ties. Which is another reason why you shouldn't mix a friendship with business. 
After continuing to ponder the situation after a few days, I felt that I should respond with factual documentation and sending her the signed agreement basically just making myself feel like I have attempted to act in good faith. But I never sent the email draft, and it's still sitting in my email queue.

Today I receive total payment of $330 instead of $1,005 as billed.

^^^^ I'm not going to deposit the payments, until I figure out what I'm going to do.

At this point, I guess I'm not really sure what I should do. I have no issue filing a small claims on the balance. I'm considered filing a mechanic's lien on all 3 properties for the balance.

So I'm hoping to hear some 3rd party professional experience from you as to how I should proceed.

Thank you for your time in reading/comments.

Below is the before/after Google maps overviews:


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Cash check under protest .Send them a letter you are going to small claims court and service is canceled.


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## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

What grandview said or you can file a mechanics lien on the property/properties.


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

Take it as a $700 lesson to have an ironclad agreement on jobs, especially for people you are friends with or related to.

Cash the check, fire them and move on. You will be throwing good money after bad trying to collect the difference.


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## calikid79 (Feb 12, 2012)

Depends on your state. In mo I add $100 and 20% to the bill as a collection fee. I send them a demand letter with copies of the lien paperwork and tell them I will file the liens in 10 days if not paid. I also state on the demand letter if they pay within 10 days the collection fee is waived. They usually pay. If not I file the liens and move on. They can't do anything with the property till that pay you.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Ive been through the small claims before in a previous life; but is it possible to do both the lien and small claims to see whichever sticks?


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

I presume these are in the Rubber City itself?

I can spend time to verify the mechanic lien laws in OH, but I am pretty certain that unless you have a signed work order, estimate, or contract, you are gonna be up shyts creek.

There are three red flags that come up for me:

1. It's in Akron
2. They own multiple businesses and likely have knowledge of collection laws in the state
3. Lack of a signed order to perform services

Also, is the phrase "payment in full" written on the subject line of the check?


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Located within the same county, but the properties on in two different ajoining cities. I believe the county court would prevail for jurisdiction. 

I have a signed price agreement, agreeing to the terms, but not a specified contract with multiple pages like i would/should have normally done. They've paid every previous invoice for winter work without question before this ( multiple years). All of a sudden they purchases a plow for another truck, but it wasnt installed yet...and i believe this is the problem. They are just trying to dick the dealer here. 

They didnt write payment in full on the checks, but their emails elude that these checks are payment in full. 

So i asked my bank about the terminology for the "under protest" and they advised that anything else they couldnt accept the check with an endorsement because they arent the enforcee of the contract terms and arent aware of the payment schedules. Which makes sense to me. 

So thats why im reluctant to endorse the checks. 


I have to make a few calls to some attorneys this morning for a clearer answer.


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

From a purely financial standpoint, it is going to cost less money to accept what they have paid and simply cut ties.

From an ethical standpoint, both sides have reasonable affirmations of their contractual obligations, and should work together to find an amicable solution. 

From a legal standpoint, both sides have reasonable affirmations of their contractual obligations, and whoever has a better lawyer will win. 

You do snow removal for a living, right? Cut your losses, take the money they paid, and never do business with them again.

Over the first six years of operation at my repair shop, I lost over $100k due to non pays, NSF payments to me, vehicles being taken off the lot without paying, and me extending credit to people I should not have. I now have COD terms, and all vehicles are locked up till paid in full. The ones who owed me money I took to court, got a judgment, and still have not collected. I spent $10k trying to collect on those debts, and in the end I have received about $456 from all debtors.

I get livid thinking about it, and quite frankly it does not help anyones stress levels. It is part of business, unfortunately. Sounds like they know how the system works too.

Send them a nice, courteous letter informing them their business is no longer requested nor desired, accept the payment, and go on with your business. Karma will come back to them, eventually.


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

BTW COMPLETELY off topic, but I hope you have gotten a pizza from Mark and Philly's up in Cuyahoga Falls.

ZOMG best pizza on earth. I detour off I77 every run I make to Thieveland to get me one.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

hatefulmechanic;1560993 said:


> BTW COMPLETELY off topic, but I hope you have gotten a pizza from Mark and Philly's up in Cuyahoga Falls.
> 
> ZOMG best pizza on earth. I detour off I77 every run I make to Thieveland to get me one.


Of all the time I've lived here, I have never been there. It was a Dairy Mart at one point, and perhaps why I haven't paid attention to the change over. Rocco's is pretty good too, it's about a mile away or so from there.

Your previous points are pretty valid too. But at this point it's the principal. I'm a person of principal. Being that it's a small claims amount, having your business name/personal names on the local court dockets for future reference regardless of what happens I feel would far be worth any money received, or actions that occur afterwards.


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

underESTIMATED;1561075 said:


> Of all the time I've lived here, I have never been there. It was a Dairy Mart at one point, and perhaps why I haven't paid attention to the change over. Rocco's is pretty good too, it's about a mile away or so from there.
> 
> Your previous points are pretty valid too. But at this point it's the principal. I'm a person of principal. Being that it's a small claims amount, having your business name/personal names on the local court dockets for future reference regardless of what happens I feel would far be worth any money received, or actions that occur afterwards.


I used to be based on principal.  It don't work.

Thinking the courts or police are going to help on just about any situation in business is wishful thinking, IMO.

If OH is even remotely like VA on civil matters in court, they can drag this out for months going back and forth, and with the info I see, the judge will likely dismiss the case because they do not have a signed work order or estimate.

It sucks, but unless you want to waste a lot of time at the courthouse, it aint worth it. Solely my opinion though, and I have been in your shoes countless times (before I Figured it out and changed my methods so I am not in that position again)

Good luck however you go.

Get extra garlic butter when you do go, its amazing.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

What hateful said.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

ducaticorse;1561434 said:


> What hateful said.


I agree with this as well.

Great answers Hateful.

To the OP and all others in whatever business ventures you have going on...The customers are *NOT* your friends!!! No matter how close you think you are or how long you've had a great relationship, when it comes to matters of money, all that fufu goes right out the window. Trust me on this, and cover yourself no matter what.


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

One thing to consider that by cashing the partial payment check, you may be accepting their terms for payment. If you intend to go to court over the matter, do not cash the check. At least that is what can happen here in NC. Any time a partial payment is made/accepted, there is really no timeline for completion of payments.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Hateful make some good points. I've been through this. Take the money and move on as Hateful says.. If it makes you feel better .... Plow them in next time ... that is after they get someone else to plow. No snow in the Baltimore area. I may come up there and help you. You just need to buy the pizza.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

underESTIMATED;1560978 said:


> Located within the same county, but the properties on in two different ajoining cities. I believe the county court would prevail for jurisdiction.
> 
> I have a signed price agreement, agreeing to the terms, but not a specified contract with multiple pages like i would/should have normally done. They've paid every previous invoice for winter work without question before this ( multiple years). All of a sudden they purchases a plow for another truck, but it wasnt installed yet...and i believe this is the problem. They are just trying to dick the dealer here.
> 
> ...


I would do the lien people hear about this you might find your self getting burned by others Even if you only get 2/3 of it people will know they cant push you around


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## woodchuck2 (Dec 4, 2010)

Price for that size lot and hassle seems reasonable to me. Sounds like these folks only want to pay what they feel your time is worth. I would politely tell them good luck and walk away. You will find that money is not worth chasing and it will not give them or their son any reason to bad mouth you or your business. If you find they are trashing you verbally then i would pursue them for slander. 

I had one fella once fire me for not getting to his home quick enough so he could get to work so he called in to work. We had been forecasted with a dusting and ended up with almost 12" of snow so needless to say i was behind from the get go. Now, he and i never had an agreement to any time of him being plowed out nor had the time of my arrival ever been an issue in the past. He demanded i pay for his lost days wages and that he had found a new contractor. I told him i was not paying for his wages as we never had any time agreement nor even a written contract and it is not my responsibility to see him off to work. He owed me $90 for that month so i told him to keep it and good luck. This fella was out at a bar several months later and started trashing me in front of my wife and friends. I told him that apparently he had forgotten about some of the freebies i did for him such as punching out the scraper bank if the Town plow went through after i cleared the drive, free sanding on occasion, free boost's when his car would not start to be moved, free tow when he was stuck in the ditch because he had one too many the night before, etc. I also reminded him that i let him go on his bill so technically i plowed his driveway 3 times for free. I also reminded him he was grown man and that if he needed to get to work that badly he could either have called me or shoveled his way out but IMO he was being lazy and did not want to work anyway. My final question to him was "are you trashing me for doing you favors, plowing your driveway for free several times and just because you are too lazy to shovel you had to call in to work"??? He walked away with is head down and embarrassed.


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## jmac5058 (Sep 28, 2009)

ducaticorse;1561434 said:


> What hateful said.


It dont work ?


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

woodchuck2;1561770 said:


> Price for that size lot and hassle seems reasonable to me. Sounds like these folks only want to pay what they feel your time is worth. I would politely tell them good luck and walk away. You will find that money is not worth chasing and it will not give them or their son any reason to bad mouth you or your business. If you find they are trashing you verbally then i would pursue them for slander.
> 
> I had one fella once fire me for not getting to his home quick enough so he could get to work so he called in to work. We had been forecasted with a dusting and ended up with almost 12" of snow so needless to say i was behind from the get go. Now, he and i never had an agreement to any time of him being plowed out nor had the time of my arrival ever been an issue in the past. He demanded i pay for his lost days wages and that he had found a new contractor. I told him i was not paying for his wages as we never had any time agreement nor even a written contract and it is not my responsibility to see him off to work. He owed me $90 for that month so i told him to keep it and good luck. This fella was out at a bar several months later and started trashing me in front of my wife and friends. I told him that apparently he had forgotten about some of the freebies i did for him such as punching out the scraper bank if the Town plow went through after i cleared the drive, free sanding on occasion, free boost's when his car would not start to be moved, free tow when he was stuck in the ditch because he had one too many the night before, etc. I also reminded him that i let him go on his bill so technically i plowed his driveway 3 times for free. I also reminded him he was grown man and that if he needed to get to work that badly he could either have called me or shoveled his way out but IMO he was being lazy and did not want to work anyway. My final question to him was "are you trashing me for doing you favors, plowing your driveway for free several times and just because you are too lazy to shovel you had to call in to work"??? He walked away with is head down and embarrassed.


Good friend of mine up in MA was telling me last night he had a guy who stiffed one of his customers (friend owns a repair and towing shop) who does plowing and excavating. Had the excavator plow his drive for an entire season, never paid. The next season rolls around, they get one hell of a good wet snow, and the excavator was hauling snow from one of his accounts, happened to drive by the aforementioned deadbeat who stiffed him the year before.

Well, lets just say that the guy got all of his snow back from the previous season lol. To add insult to injury, the guy was dumb enough to try to drive through the pile of snow, essentially burying his car.

Karma is in effect, even though some times you wish it happens sooner.



Antlerart06;1561701 said:


> I would do the lien people hear about this you might find your self getting burned by others Even if you only get 2/3 of it people will know they cant push you around


Without having a concrete contract and work order, I highly doubt he would be able to get a lien recorded fruitfully. Sure, it might go and be applied in the clerks office, but the property owner is likely going to contest it, and have it removed.

Also, being as they own multiple businesses, it is almost guaranteed they own the property in a different entity, so legally the only thing you can do is file a judgment against the entity that contracted the work, not the entity that owns the property.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

jmac5058;1561778 said:


> It dont work ?


In regard to what?


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## gafred (Nov 8, 2011)

underESTIMATED;1560076 said:


> As a follow-up to my original post: Thread Here I
> 
> the son "un-friended" me via Facebook,
> 
> [/IMG]


One less to update...

Doing work for friends and family never works out...


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

gafred;1562753 said:


> One less to update...
> 
> Doing work for friends and family never works out...


Point made/noted.

I've spent the better part of this week researching an attorney that the family hasn't done business with, and is willing to provide legal counsel without bias.

What an ass-ache, and I'm aware of the majority saying it isn't worth it to pursue.

However, we are talking about $700. Not $70. To some people, that's a week's income down the drain. Others, it's a kick in the bucket.

Small claims court for this case would cost $58 to start, per company. I think I may atleast spend that money just to put their name on public record. For $100 it's worth it to me to have that little bit of information for whatever result out there for anyone/everyone to see. If I get paid in the end, great...if not, it's a lesson learned and I'll write it off as bad debt or good will.

I appreciate everyone's comments, and appreciate any additional ones. 
My lesson I'm sure isn't the only one here.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

underESTIMATED;1562756 said:


> Point made/noted.
> 
> I've spent the better part of this week researching an attorney that the family hasn't done business with, and is willing to provide legal counsel without bias.
> 
> ...


Good luck, I hope you win and get your money. Let us know the outcome whenever it happens.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I've always sent out bills like I receive them, net on receipt with the understanding that they are due in 30 days. The few instances where I've had discrepencies in expectations and actually had someone try to pay less than what they owe, I take the payment and send out a statement with a 2.4% late payment fee per month. I would continue it until I have the downtime to take them to court but that has never happened. They always seem pay up when there is a added amount that seems to be compounding. (Epecially if there is a court date looming)
I don't always get the late fee but you get the point....
It's important to keep your billing consistent. If you take the check and don't send a new statement, it can be argued that you agree to the terms of their short payment.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

hatefulmechanic;1561846 said:


> Good friend of mine up in MA was telling me last night he had a guy who stiffed one of his customers (friend owns a repair and towing shop) who does plowing and excavating. Had the excavator plow his drive for an entire season, never paid. The next season rolls around, they get one hell of a good wet snow, and the excavator was hauling snow from one of his accounts, happened to drive by the aforementioned deadbeat who stiffed him the year before.
> 
> Well, lets just say that the guy got all of his snow back from the previous season lol. To add insult to injury, the guy was dumb enough to try to drive through the pile of snow, essentially burying his car.
> 
> ...


What I was reading They had signed a agreement on the service he was doing
And if that agreement dont have a end date on it then he can get a lien 
To OP when go file for the lien take all paper work E-mails showing request of the extra work

To me they ask for it and once bill comes they dont want to pay

Send the Customer a letter stating you going put a lien on them if the balance isnt paid in full by this date Most of the time it will get paid


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

Antlerart06;1562804 said:


> What I was reading They had signed a agreement on the service he was doing
> And if that agreement dont have a end date on it then he can get a lien
> To OP when go file for the lien take all paper work E-mails showing request of the extra work
> 
> ...


The agreement he has does not cover the other locations he did, the second location he did for the son, nor the salting (from what I read, I would need to see the verbage on the original agreement to be certain) and any lawyer can normally tear a per event contract to shreds if it is not written iron clad.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Mr.Markus;1562783 said:


> I've always sent out bills like I receive them, net on receipt with the understanding that they are due in 30 days. The few instances where I've had discrepencies in expectations and actually had someone try to pay less than what they owe, I take the payment and send out a statement with a 2.4% late payment fee per month. I would continue it until I have the downtime to take them to court but that has never happened. They always seem pay up when there is a added amount that seems to be compounding. (Epecially if there is a court date looming)
> I don't always get the late fee but you get the point....
> It's important to keep your billing consistent. If you take the check and don't send a new statement, it can be argued that you agree to the terms of their short payment.


I tried that - those people usually require a few extra phone calls for follow up too.

They argue that you're taking advantage of them by the additional charges and forget that I've always pre-paid for servicing their house/account before they considered writing me a check for payment.



Antlerart06;1562804 said:


> What I was reading They had signed a agreement on the service he was doing
> And if that agreement dont have a end date on it then he can get a lien
> To OP when go file for the lien take all paper work E-mails showing request of the extra work
> 
> ...





hatefulmechanic;1562892 said:


> The agreement he has does not cover the other locations he did, the second location he did for the son, nor the salting (from what I read, I would need to see the verbage on the original agreement to be certain) and any lawyer can normally tear a per event contract to shreds if it is not written iron clad.


You are both correct. I apologize for my story/facts running together.

1st Location - Been doing for a few years. Signed agreement, but no end dates. (Living pricing agreement)

2nd Location - Is son's 2nd business, and located on parents commercial property that I quoted ~2 years ago.

2nd Location - Dad solicited my services to clean up Son's 2nd business, and to plow the specific locations that I quoted ~2 years ago.

I have secured an attorney to take care of these toolsheds, and a few others on my caseload early next week.

In the end, I hope to prevail, and if not...I feel better knowing that for an indefinite amount of time their names will appear as researchable docket information on the court records.

According to the attorney, he said the judgement lien is different than a mechanic's lien in the fact that you can judgement lien every asset/parcel they own, as opposed to the piece of property that is serviced.

So I feel better hearing that, and am glad I didn't go through with the mechanic's lien for the previous $2k deadbeat account from last year. Because now it will include 15+ properties, instead of 2. wesport


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Spent a few hours with an attorney that specializes in chasing money; and by the end of the week I hope to know the date when I'll know whether or not these deadbeats (3) will owe me money, or if I wasted my money on chasing it. 

At the end of the day, atleast they can't hide behind the searchable court records. Those never "fall off" from being searchable. :laughing:


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

woodchuck2;1561770 said:


> Price for that size lot and hassle seems reasonable to me. Sounds like these folks only want to pay what they feel your time is worth. I would politely tell them good luck and walk away. You will find that money is not worth chasing and it will not give them or their son any reason to bad mouth you or your business. If you find they are trashing you verbally then i would pursue them for slander.
> 
> I had one fella once fire me for not getting to his home quick enough so he could get to work so he called in to work. We had been forecasted with a dusting and ended up with almost 12" of snow so needless to say i was behind from the get go. Now, he and i never had an agreement to any time of him being plowed out nor had the time of my arrival ever been an issue in the past. He demanded i pay for his lost days wages and that he had found a new contractor. I told him i was not paying for his wages as we never had any time agreement nor even a written contract and it is not my responsibility to see him off to work. He owed me $90 for that month so i told him to keep it and good luck. This fella was out at a bar several months later and started trashing me in front of my wife and friends. I told him that apparently he had forgotten about some of the freebies i did for him such as punching out the scraper bank if the Town plow went through after i cleared the drive, free sanding on occasion, free boost's when his car would not start to be moved, free tow when he was stuck in the ditch because he had one too many the night before, etc. I also reminded him that i let him go on his bill so technically i plowed his driveway 3 times for free. I also reminded him he was grown man and that if he needed to get to work that badly he could either have called me or shoveled his way out but IMO he was being lazy and did not want to work anyway. My final question to him was "are you trashing me for doing you favors, plowing your driveway for free several times and just because you are too lazy to shovel you had to call in to work"??? He walked away with is head down and embarrassed.


I hope he got the point you made! What a total scumbag! I dislike guys like that!


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

woodchuck2;1561770 said:


> Price for that size lot and hassle seems reasonable to me. Sounds like these folks only want to pay what they feel your time is worth. I would politely tell them good luck and walk away. You will find that money is not worth chasing and it will not give them or their son any reason to bad mouth you or your business. If you find they are trashing you verbally then i would pursue them for slander.
> 
> I had one fella once fire me for not getting to his home quick enough so he could get to work so he called in to work. We had been forecasted with a dusting and ended up with almost 12" of snow so needless to say i was behind from the get go. Now, he and i never had an agreement to any time of him being plowed out nor had the time of my arrival ever been an issue in the past. He demanded i pay for his lost days wages and that he had found a new contractor. I told him i was not paying for his wages as we never had any time agreement nor even a written contract and it is not my responsibility to see him off to work. He owed me $90 for that month so i told him to keep it and good luck. This fella was out at a bar several months later and started trashing me in front of my wife and friends. I told him that apparently he had forgotten about some of the freebies i did for him such as punching out the scraper bank if the Town plow went through after i cleared the drive, free sanding on occasion, free boost's when his car would not start to be moved, free tow when he was stuck in the ditch because he had one too many the night before, etc. I also reminded him that i let him go on his bill so technically i plowed his driveway 3 times for free. I also reminded him he was grown man and that if he needed to get to work that badly he could either have called me or shoveled his way out but IMO he was being lazy and did not want to work anyway. My final question to him was "are you trashing me for doing you favors, plowing your driveway for free several times and just because you are too lazy to shovel you had to call in to work"??? He walked away with is head down and embarrassed.


***** would have been picking his teeth up off the floor.


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## pabaker66 (Nov 25, 2011)

hatefulmechanic;1560993 said:


> BTW COMPLETELY off topic, but I hope you have gotten a pizza from Mark and Philly's up in Cuyahoga Falls.
> 
> ZOMG best pizza on earth. I detour off I77 every run I make to Thieveland to get me one.


Mark and Philly's is at the end of my street!!! Excellent pizza and chicken.

Cuyahoga Falls has several good pizza joints, Farinachi on Oakwood, Masters on Tallmadge Rd, and Emedios on Bath Rd.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

pabaker66;1570077 said:


> Mark and Philly's is at the end of my street!!! Excellent pizza and chicken.
> 
> Cuyahoga Falls has several good pizza joints, Farinachi on Oakwood, Masters on Tallmadge Rd, and Emedios on Bath Rd.


Ive always thought Rocco's was good


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

pabaker66;1570077 said:


> Mark and Philly's is at the end of my street!!! Excellent pizza and chicken.
> 
> Cuyahoga Falls has several good pizza joints, Farinachi on Oakwood, Masters on Tallmadge Rd, and Emedios on Bath Rd.


I found it by accident when I was on a delivery run to Akron, I had delivered my vehicle and was waiting for my return flight so I rode around in a rental car. Damn glad I did, cause that was an amazing pizza.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

hatefulmechanic;1572351 said:


> I found it by accident when I was on a delivery run to Akron, I had delivered my vehicle and was waiting for my return flight so I rode around in a rental car. Damn glad I did, cause that was an amazing pizza.


The wife and I decided to head out to check this place out tonight for dinner, and they were freakin closed! ::facepalm::

So we went to Rocco's instead.

I will have to try it another time.


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## DodgeBlizzard (Nov 7, 2003)

As another plow contractor........I applaud you and your efforts to go after YOUR money. I wish every plow contractor would do this. Maybe if we did, then people wouldn't try to stiff our profession. Wouldn't it be great to get all the plow trucks in your town and a few neighboring towns to show up at their office with your plows on and lights flashing and pay them a visit?


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

DodgeBlizzard;1572868 said:


> As another plow contractor........I applaud you and your efforts to go after YOUR money. I wish every plow contractor would do this. Maybe if we did, then people wouldn't try to stiff our profession. Wouldn't it be great to get all the plow trucks in your town and a few neighboring towns to show up at their office with your plows on and lights flashing and pay them a visit?


Thank you.

I was loading some salt this morning, and ended up talking shop for a few hours there as well.

Talking with a few new voices about this family/account, he was suprised to hear of such a thing. He's alot larger than myself, and word of mouth carries heavy weight. But stiffing someone based on paying only a selected amount of services after the fact is pretty shotty.

No reason to sever ties over $700 in my opinion. But in this case $700 helps pay for our bills, and isn't an arbitrary charge. If you don't have the means to service your own property, I guess you're going to be paying someone else to do so. But you can't dick the dealer because the cards weren't dealt in your favor this round.


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## Snow Picasso (Dec 15, 2004)

grandview;1560078 said:


> Cash check under protest .Send them a letter you are going to small claims court and service is canceled.


I'm with Grandview! Cash the check and lien the properties. I would also send them invoices with late charges. They might want to settle with you after that. It also might be worth one more "polite" phone call letting them know where you stand! They had no problem letting you know where the stood! Don't forget that the interest rates are super low....they might want to re-fi some day soon. They won't be able to do anything with a lien on the property Good Luck!


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## KatWalk (Oct 12, 2002)

Let me start by saying I am 100% on your side as a fellow contractor. We prepare our equipment, spend our money to have reliable equipment, then wait around 3-4 months of the year to essentially be on call 24/7..........the reward in your case is getting stiffed for $700. Two words that are synonomous to me are lawyers and liars. My experience is that they have the ability to "manipulate" any contract I have ever seen to express their point and find one tiny little loophole to screw us. For example.....you posted a picture of the property and wrote 18k plowable and on the right side 3k "mowable". We as contractors have some common sense and know asphalt is not "mowable", but the "law" seems never to use common sense in its application. Going through the legal process is definately worth it at least one time in my opinion. I have been through it and had it drag on and on and on, only for the lawyers to actually win....they get paid win or lose! My experience with the legal process did help me to write better contracts....that meant alot of extra time to think out and list various situations that have happened or could happen. My last thought, if they have access to or are "trust fund" people......their pockets may be deeper than yours! That doesn't mean that I am suggesting you are not successful or any less than them...quite the opposite. You are investing your own time and money based on principles to receive compensation on something you have already done. Good luck.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Snow Picasso;1573621 said:


> I'm with Grandview! Cash the check and lien the properties. I would also send them invoices with late charges. They might want to settle with you after that. It also might be worth one more "polite" phone call letting them know where you stand! They had no problem letting you know where the stood! Don't forget that the interest rates are super low....they might want to re-fi some day soon. They won't be able to do anything with a lien on the property Good Luck!


The attorney has the recent invoices, with the $100 late fee & 2.4% collection fees as mentioned in this thread. (2.4% is pretty low after I accessed the charge on the outstanding balance - but it shows that I'm not gauging them on paper?)



KatWalk;1575165 said:


> Let me start by saying I am 100% on your side as a fellow contractor. We prepare our equipment, spend our money to have reliable equipment, then wait around 3-4 months of the year to essentially be on call 24/7..........the reward in your case is getting stiffed for $700. Two words that are synonomous to me are lawyers and liars. My experience is that they have the ability to "manipulate" any contract I have ever seen to express their point and find one tiny little loophole to screw us. For example.....you posted a picture of the property and wrote 18k plowable and on the right side 3k "mowable". We as contractors have some common sense and know asphalt is not "mowable", but the "law" seems never to use common sense in its application. Going through the legal process is definately worth it at least one time in my opinion. I have been through it and had it drag on and on and on, only for the lawyers to actually win....they get paid win or lose! My experience with the legal process did help me to write better contracts....that meant alot of extra time to think out and list various situations that have happened or could happen. My last thought, if they have access to or are "trust fund" people......their pockets may be deeper than yours! That doesn't mean that I am suggesting you are not successful or any less than them...quite the opposite. You are investing your own time and money based on principles to receive compensation on something you have already done. Good luck.


No offense taken. Excellent post!

The 3k mowable written on the asphalt portion was only so it could legibly be seen and not retract from the overview. But I understand your point.

I just seen all of the cases listed seperately on the court docket today. (5!) :laughing:

I guess the attorney actually listened to me when I said I wanted to prove a point for any future docket searches on their families & businesses. He even asked for attorney fees. Awesome! :laughing: :laughing:

Court date 2/20.

Now I'm just waiting for my phone to ring after they receive their certified letters. :laughing:


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## M&M (Sep 8, 2008)

Subscribed!


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

I don't think I should be continuing to post the details until this finalizes now that a court date has been set, but for those that have provided input and/or posted within the thread might like to hear the latest.

Court date was established back on 1/23, with 1/24 certified mailers being sent out.

Last Friday (1/25) I get a random email from the mom (again who pays all the bills - controller) about 8:15am asking 


> Two checks were mailed to you on Jan. 5, 2013 and neither check has cleared the bank.
> 
> Did you receive the checks (mailed together)? If so, are you planning to cash?


I was on the road getting some errands run before the storm, and I wasn't going to respond anyways. I just thought it was funny and ironic to get this email out of the blue.

Then my email starts blowing up after the storm hits, and I'm plowing for an hour or so.



Email she sent to Attorney said:


> I just left you a voicemail message regarding the certified mail for a Small Claim Complaint I just signed for.
> 
> I wrote [redacted] a check in the amount of $135.00 on Jan. 3, 2013 and mailed the check on Jan. 5, 2013. Attached is an email I sent to [redacted] just this morning at 8:09 asking him if he'd ever received my check, and, if so, if he was planning on cashing it. Certainly I would not have sent this email asking him if he'd received the check if I hadn't mailed a check in payment of his invoice. As of this morning, that check had not cleared the bank.
> 
> ...


She forwarded that email, with another statement enclosed:



> See email below that I just sent your attorney. And to think that we were contemplating using your services for our [redacted] road property. I think you just cooked your own goose over a lost check for $135.00.


My goose was cooked along time, but certainly wasn't over these people or this other property that I wasn't good enough to do two years ago. 

About 3:50pm another email she forwarded me that she sent the attorney:



> [redacted], I am forwarding an email [see below] originally sent to me by [redacted] asking about payment of another invoice that was originally emailed to me Nov. 20, 2012. On Dec. 18, 2012 he's asking for a status on the payment of that invoice which is almost one full month after the invoice was originally emailed. In that case, the check had been mailed the previous day, to which he replied "great". [see attached email]
> 
> With the most recent $135.00 invoice emailed to me Dec. 31 which is the subject of the claim, he doesn't email asking for an update on the payment will, he simply goes to court because he doesn't have payment in less than 3 weeks.
> 
> ...


Why on earth would you actively send my attorney an email, saying that you're were nearly 30 days late on payment, and now you think this is "just because" you're late???

She obviously forgot about the whole "I'm not paying for this, and I'm not paying for that" dialogue she had in the email.

Also, since she was able to find & attach my emails & invoices to give to the attorney, she apparently doesn't have the quoted emails from nearly 2 years ago? I save every email that I've sent/received (worthy of) since 2003 when I knew how to transfer the outlook.pst files just because of stuff like this.

Cliff notes:
I don't think there's any pertinent information that I posted above that could harm my situation, but is provided as a learning lesson for my fellow peers.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I've had a few of those.I sent the check out,must of got lost in the mail.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

grandview;1580230 said:


> I've had a few of those.I sent the check out,must of got lost in the mail.


I think she forgot to pay the rest of the bill(s) too.

Needless to say, I think they might try to satisfy this before court.

Which I don't think I will allow. A ruling against them will have much more emotional strain that they might consider not screwing someone over out of money again.

Or...the ruling could be in their favor, and I'm the asshat for doing business with them.


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## MSS Mow (Mar 19, 2006)

Man I just can't stand people who try to screw the working man out of his hard earned living. I sure hope you get what is rightly yours!!


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## MSS Mow (Mar 19, 2006)

Using the free site hosting, you site has ads all over it. Many of those ads are showing up as other snow plow companies. Do you really want to be providing links to other snow plow companies?? For about $4 a month, you have your own site. I mean, most people spend that on coffee, every single day.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

MSS Mow;1580505 said:


> Using the free site hosting, you site has ads all over it. Many of those ads are showing up as other snow plow companies. Do you really want to be providing links to other snow plow companies?? For about $4 a month, you have your own site. I mean, most people spend that on coffee, every single day.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

MSS Mow;1580505 said:


> Using the free site hosting, you site has ads all over it. Many of those ads are showing up as other snow plow companies. Do you really want to be providing links to other snow plow companies?? For about $4 a month, you have your own site. I mean, most people spend that on coffee, every single day.


heh?









You had me check all my websites to make sure I wasn't missing something...but I think you replied to the wrong thread?


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

This is EXACTLY why I prefer written communication (email, messaging service, text, etc) over phone conversations, solely based upon the fact you have a WRITTEN dialogue of what transpired.

BTW they are going to make it seem like it is YOUR fault for not getting paid. BTDT.


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

From the devils advocate side, why/how/what argument could there be to not get paid?


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## hatefulmechanic (Dec 27, 2012)

underESTIMATED;1580937 said:


> From the devils advocate side, why/how/what argument could there be to not get paid?


If they really wanted to be a dick, and had money to blow (or a lawyer already on retainer like a lot of property owners do) they would tear your contracts to shreds legally, finding any reason to not pay. "ironclad" is a term for battleships, not contracts, in this litigious society.

I hope that you find mediation and get it resolved, and your legal fees get covered. In my experience, it winds up costing more than it would have if I had just written the loss off. Yes, the fact remains there is the "principal" of the matter, however principal does not pay the bills.


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

At the end of the day, it comes down to who the Judge believes. Anyhow, I think your doing well so far. You're beginning to get an emotional response from the other party, which suggests to me that she wants this to go away quickly. She wasn't expecting you to take this approach & sounds as though she's handling it herself for the most part. The last thing she wants to do is pay for council & go to court...not to say she won't. Keep the heat on & don't let your guard down. There are other outlining factors she's dealing with, that will steer her in the direction she takes...that have nothing to do w/ the case.


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## Shade Tree NJ (Dec 26, 2010)

Not sure of laws in your state but "theft of services" charges filed with police will usually get their attention!


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade Tree NJ;1587258 said:


> Not sure of laws in your state but "theft of services" charges filed with police will usually get their attention!


I can't imagine any police department actually doing this, it's a civil matter...not a criminal matter. Despite the terminology.

Just like the bank doesn't want to get involved in "under protest" signing the check, they have no written documents to allow/disallow the check to be processed with that endorsement.

I've ridden along with a cop friend of mine 2x a year for 13 years now....they are better served actually taking more important criminal calls than responding to take a report on a civil matter.

Perhaps your state and perception is different, but it's just my opinion. <<< It wasn't meant as a slight to you.

No real update per se, but I did think they would have tried to settle this out of court by now. Especially with her email transcript? Maybe they will wait until closer to the court date.

I do think it's funny that the mom signed for her companies certified mail, but the son hasn't for his (probably thinking it will stall it?).


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## Shade Tree NJ (Dec 26, 2010)

I would not call 911 over it but walk into police station to file the complaint. In NJ the government will do anything and everything to get an extra buck. Here's a link from a while ago. In NJ the police would fwd the complaint to the prosecutors office and they would decide weather to press charges or not.

http://blog.nj.com/reporter/2008/01/man_arrested_for_theft_of_serv.html


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## underESTIMATED (Jul 2, 2010)

Shade Tree NJ;1587328 said:


> I would not call 911 over it but walk into police station to file the complaint. In NJ the government will do anything and everything to get an extra buck. Here's a link from a while ago. In NJ the police would fwd the complaint to the prosecutors office and they would decide weather to press charges or not.
> 
> http://blog.nj.com/reporter/2008/01/man_arrested_for_theft_of_serv.html


I'm certainly not a prosecutor, but I did just read over our Ohio Revised Code (ORC) regarding the theft of services ordinances, and I can't see one small inclusion for our industry. Certainly rental theft for rental properties, or actual tangible property. But not for unpaid services.

Here's our link: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2913

I think it would be a stretch and literally would be a waste of tax paying money to link a criminal charge. Though for my $2k oustanding balance I guess it's listed as a felony class, but making it stick would be tough considering it's a business entity, not a private citizen.


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## Midwest Plower (Dec 21, 2008)

I think id agree with woodchuck, I had a couple of small calims issues and it doesn't go as well as you would like at times. I'd take the money , tell them good luck with their next contractor, and pray for a foot of snow to fall in the mean time.


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