# Please help bidding large church



## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

I have to have a plowing bid in for this church but haven't bid anything quite this large yet. I am plowing with a western wide out on a 4 door F250. It is for both parking lots you see, main one and one across the street. They measure approx. 123,621 sq. ft. and it is for plowing only, no salt or walks with a 2" trigger. I would really like to get this as a lawn care package. You should be able to get a good look from the link I post. I roughly came up with $6800.00??????

http://wikimapia.org/7112133/St-Elizabeth-Ann-Seton-Church


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## LawnProLandscapes (Nov 15, 2007)

so its just about 3 acres plowable. is this for a seasonal property maintenance contract ( plowing/mowing) or per push or seasonal plowing only? youll have to research the frequency on average for 2" + snow falls and figure out an hourly rate then figure out how many hours to plow that lot. on average with minimal obstructions and backdragging with an 8' plow 1 acre/hr. is a standard. i would roughly estimate that with a 2" snowfall with your wideout you could knock it out in around 2 hrs. + or -, just be safe and leave some breathing room. just make sure you find out first where they want the snow to be stacked which could make it harder to plow.. 

is the salt per application or do they not want salting? thats another can of worms to work out...

not too bad to do you just have to take your time and keep track of all your calculations...


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

The plowing is seasonal contract, separate from lawn care. No salt on this job and they have a good dump off spot for the snow. The only thing that I'm nervous on is that I am responsible if snow has to be removed from premises in case I run out of room to put it. Like I said they have a good spot with alot of room to push it too but we get some nasty winters and you never know. So does the $6800.00 a season sound close?? I added a little just in case i have to have snow trucked out if I run out of room.


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

Sounds about right depending how much snow you get. Figuring 2 hours or so, say $100 per hour safely, that's 34 pushes. Seasonal is tough b/c you can either make out, or really get screwed. No salt is the icing on the cake. Do they salt at all? If not, do a killer job plowing the first couple times, throw in a free salting say on a Sunday morning and then tell them x-amount per push if they want to keep it up. I did that last year and they beg for salt now. 

Being a church is nice too. You can probably get away with half pushes if it's not during church days.


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks for all the help I really appreciate it. Like I said I am new to big commercials, I have 53 residential and only a few small commercial. I always see guys on here talking about 3"-6" 6"-9" and so on?? Should I be pricing this for different snowfall amounts and if so how much do you normally add for something like that. Again no salt, they take care of that and it's a 2" trigger. Sorry about all the questions but I am trying not to screw myself on this.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

If its seasonal then you don't price seperate for 3-6, 6-9 etc. You show up at 2" and clear the parking lot. If it snows more then you do it again. If you get there and it already has 5" then you clear it and it takes you longer, that's it.

I can't tell you if your number is okay as you have never said how many times you expect it to snow? That number is divided into the total to tell me what you are charging per time.

Hauling away snow can bite you in the butt if you have to do it. Make sure you are using every inch of the area to push the snow. If you are getting close, I would rent a loader and stack it even higher to free up some space instead of hauling it away.

As mentioned, churches don't always need everything plowed every day. Maybe the entrance drive so the office staff can get in and then of course on Sat or Sun everything has to be cleared. I would still plow them every time it snows enough, but you can do it after all the other customers are done. In your own time. Then on Sat and Sun they come first and the other customers go to the back of the line.


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

Most use 26 pushes for an average around here, although we are over that for this year already. I think I might be high now that I look into it a little more? I charge $75.00 per hour per truck if that helps. Tough to figure the snow removal part, most places worry about that if it happens, this place wants it included? How the hell do you price something when you don't even know if you are going to have to do it? Man do I have alot to learn, if it wasn't for the lawncare I wouldn't care as much but it's a really nice lawn contract.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

that sounds cheap to me. but how much snow do you avearge.


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

We average 180 inches of good old Lake Effect where the church is.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Kind of need to know how much area you have to stack snow on. $6800 sounds way low to me IMO, especially with 180" average. One or Two removals would eat up $5000 easily.


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

I have the whole end of the parking lot to dump snow at if I need to. I should'nt have to truck snow out unless we get a ridiculous amount. Worse case is that I have to have someone come in and move the banks back which should be much cheaper than having it trucked out. Now I'm really confused and I need bid in tomorrow. Guess it will be a crap shoot and hope for the best.


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## LawnProLandscapes (Nov 15, 2007)

the guy i sub contract through now charges outside the seasonal contract for removal of snow, and it has to be approved by property manager. maybe take that route with them, and yes it would be easy and cheaper to have a skid steere come in and stack banks or blow them back. make sure in your contract you have it listed that you are not responsible for application of de-icers per the property manager to cover your arse a little bit.... 

good luck with the bid, where in ny you located im in little falls right off i-90 between albany and syracuse.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Say 3 hours to clear it @ $75/hr is $225 x 30 pushes is $6,750.

Now you need to figure out how many times this year you would have had to move the snow piles. Either bring something in and move/stack higher or hire someone to haul it off site.

I would tell them that to give them the best deal you don't want to include the removal. Give them the $6,800 number and then give them a per time or hour or truck load price. What ever you come up with. If they really want it included, then add it in and be done with it. And when they don't need it, you can pocket the money.

Good Luck


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

Thanks for everything, sorry to be a pain in the ass. Guess I will hope for the best and try and learn from all this. LawnProLandscapes, I'm in Cicero just north of Syracuse.


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## LawnProLandscapes (Nov 15, 2007)

CNY LAKE EFFECT;764888 said:


> Thanks for everything, sorry to be a pain in the ass. Guess I will hope for the best and try and learn from all this. LawnProLandscapes, I'm in Cicero just north of Syracuse.


no pain at all this is what the forum is for. nice you do get the good lake effect im always just a little east or south of the heavy snows.. when i get done with college im going to move my business to the utica/rome area and work out of there....

another thing to i dont know if you show all your profits for taxes or not so you might want to add sales tax into it and workers comp and such depending on how you run your business.

good luck with it and hope you get it, looks like itll be a fun account, hey and if you need an extra truck for those real heavy snowfalls let me know if im not getting hit ill come help yea 

ps. go into the plowsite groups and join the new york plowers group.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

i have seasonals that are about two acres and I get 9K a seasonfor plowing with salting included, and another one that is 3 acres that I get 15k for the season with salting included.But we average a little over 60 inches a year here in cleveland.


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

Just wanted to thank everyone for your help. I was awarded the contract yesterday for both snow and lawn. Now they want a price for salt per application, they only want it when it is really icy? Never priced salt so I'm not sure how to price this? The guy who had the contract charged $200.00 per application and they wanted to know if I could do it for that? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

is it $200 for the sidewalks you mentioned above or for something else.

If it is the sidewalks, then yes, $200 would be GREAT to get.


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

$200.00 for the parking lot no walks, they take care of the walks.


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

You are going to use at least a ton of salt at that place. I actually calculated it out to 2500 pounds. If you are going to spread a ton, or more of salt for $200 you can come up here and I'll sub out all my salting to you! Seriously though, depending on salt prices in your area $200 sounds WAY cheap to salt that. The other thing to ask is why they got rid of the old guy. Is it because he did a bad job, or because he was "unreasonable" and wanted to be paid within 30 days?


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

I pay $75.00 a ton for salt through a big company here. I come out with a little over 1/2 ton per visit and I actually got bids from subs just to see where I fall for price and they were all around $225.00 so I figure I should be good at $200.00 doing it myself. They got rid of the other guy because he wouldn't push the snow where he was supposed to and kept charging them to move the banks back.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Burkartsplow;765030 said:


> i have seasonals that are about two acres and I get 9K a seasonfor plowing with salting included, and another one that is 3 acres that I get 15k for the season with salting included.But we average a little over 60 inches a year here in cleveland.


That's awesome, so all CNY needs to do is move to Cleveland along with the church and he can charge more.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, it doesn't matter what you charge because you're not in the same market and you receive a lot less snow. More snow=lower hourly rates. Doesn't make sense to me completely, but it is what it is.



Ipushsnow;770317 said:


> You are going to use at least a ton of salt at that place. I actually calculated it out to 2500 pounds. If you are going to spread a ton, or more of salt for $200 you can come up here and I'll sub out all my salting to you! Seriously though, depending on salt prices in your area $200 sounds WAY cheap to salt that. The other thing to ask is why they got rid of the old guy. Is it because he did a bad job, or because he was "unreasonable" and wanted to be paid within 30 days?


See above.



CNY LAKE EFFECT;771495 said:


> I pay $75.00 a ton for salt through a big company here. I come out with a little over 1/2 ton per visit and I actually got bids from subs just to see where I fall for price and they were all around $225.00 so I figure I should be good at $200.00 doing it myself. They got rid of the other guy because he wouldn't push the snow where he was supposed to and kept charging them to move the banks back.


Congratulations, hope it works out well for you.


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## CNY LAKE EFFECT (Mar 2, 2009)

I know I'm going to make out good on some and others I'm probably going to ask myself why I bid it this low. It's a learning curve for me but that's how you get better I guess. Problem is I'm in lake effect country and every truck you see has a plow and sander and I'm not exaggerating. The competition is wicked here. Thanks again for everyones help.


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## exmark1 (Nov 30, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;771502 said:


> That's awesome, so all CNY needs to do is move to Cleveland along with the church and he can charge more.
> 
> If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, it doesn't matter what you charge because you're not in the same market and you receive a lot less snow. More snow=lower hourly rates. Doesn't make sense to me completely, but it is what it is.
> 
> ...


That is so true...Even a few hours away sometimes it can make a huge difference in what you can charge. Maybe the church would like to relocate? lol


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

CNY LAKE EFFECT;771510 said:


> I know I'm going to make out good on some and others I'm probably going to ask myself why I bid it this low. It's a learning curve for me but that's how you get better I guess. Problem is I'm in lake effect country and every truck you see has a plow and sander and I'm not exaggerating. The competition is wicked here. Thanks again for everyones help.


It's the same way here. Just look at it as an entire season, not per month. A guy I plow for is a poor business man and can't budget money for crap. One property we do do for him is a $10k per month contract. Honestly was bid way too cheap IMHO. I billed him Dec and Jan more than that per month. He thinks he lost money b/c of it. But he's not that bright. A 5 month contract is $50k. No snow in Nov, barely any in Feb, and 0 so far in March. I think he did ok overall, yet he complains how much he lost in Dec/Jan. Unreal.



exmark1;771514 said:


> That is so true...Even a few hours away sometimes it can make a huge difference in what you can charge. Maybe the church would like to relocate? lol


A few minutes in our case. There were times this year where I sent a guy 15-20 minutes away to plow over a foot of snow when it was sunny and clear here. One particular storm, one of my guys got 8 hours and the rest got 0 b/c of what lots they push. Plenty of times there was 3-4 hours compared to 0. I do rotate them though. Still, crazy though.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

exmark1;771514 said:


> That is so true...Even a few hours away sometimes it can make a huge difference in what you can charge. Maybe the church would like to relocate? lol


Less than that. 40 miles west of me and prices are about a quarter to a third what they are by me.

Now we have some idiots that want to be the next SMG\Symbiot\Superior\Dentco\USM and bid half what it should be. Which is still higher than west of me.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

Come on Mark a quarter to a third of what you are charging? You realize that is 25 to 33% right? No way to possibly make money or even keep the tanks full at that rate. Guys in Holland plowing for $25 an hour?????


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

CNY --- I hope you didnt do your planing on a 2" trigger. Because once you lock in a place on a seasonal price they will expect you to be there at 1". They dont realize how deep 2" is, and will wonder why your not there when there is only 1". If you stick to the contract and only go when there is 2" you will get labled as the "guy that doesnt show up all the time", and if you go at 1" like they will really need, then you'll be losing $$ because your there so much more often.

Also, hauling snow off site should NEVER be included. (unless its for a WAY HIGH price included). I have one site that's only had about $4000 in plowing this winter, but has had $10,000 in hauling. Also as for them not liking that the old guy charged to move back piles... ummmm PITA red flag!! Why shouldnt he charge for work he is doing? Loaders are not free! 

Good luck.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

IMAGE;771691 said:


> CNY --- I hope you didnt do your planing on a 2" trigger. Because once you lock in a place on a seasonal price they will expect you to be there at 1". They dont realize how deep 2" is, and will wonder why your not there when there is only 1". If you stick to the contract and only go when there is 2" you will get labled as the "guy that doesnt show up all the time", and if you go at 1" like they will really need, then you'll be losing $$ because your there so much more often.
> 
> Also, hauling snow off site should NEVER be included. (unless its for a WAY HIGH price included). I have one site that's only had about $4000 in plowing this winter, but has had $10,000 in hauling. Also as for them not liking that the old guy charged to move back piles... ummmm PITA red flag!! Why shouldnt he charge for work he is doing? Loaders are not free!
> 
> Good luck.


I was thinking the same, but not to the extreme that you have. More like 1.5" is when they will expect you. 
Is this a "busy" church, or pretty slow during the week ?
I used to do one, that was busy every fricken night. Boy Scouts, Bible study. Blah Blah Blah. They would get the entrance and office parking done early, and then I would come back and clean them up before 4pm. 
Learn there Schedule, and plan your level of service on that.
Obviously you want th eplace mint for Sat evening and sunday services. I would also salt more frequently for those times as well. Its a balancing act for sure. You need to manage it.

$200 seems pretty low for salt IMO.
When salt was $52 a ton, I still did much better then that per ton applied.
You will need at least a ton, except late in the season....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Just remember, 2" to those in the lake effect snowbelt is a dusting to those who aren't.


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