# Am I crazy?



## tomcat01 (Jan 5, 2011)

So I've had a plow for the past 4 years basically just to do my companies lot and home... Of course, it didn't take more than 10 minutes for the neighbors to start calling not even exaggerating. I declined to do most of them as it was my first time ever plowing. Anyway, now that I have some experience I'm thinking about starting a little side business for those days my day to day company cant run.

As much as a love plowing with my truck 2013 Chevy 2500 crew cab I don't really want to use it for plowing commercially for a couple reasons. One it's my daily and don't want to kill it (its black and I spend HOURS waxing). Second, plowing my home I find the crew cab/stand bed a PITA to maneuver. I have a few other issues I won't get into but bottom line I don't want to use it for more than what I'm doing. 

So here's where I'm not sure if I'm crazy for wanting to do this. I'm thinking instead of buying a dedicated beater plow truck id buy a Skid Steer; NOW before I get bashed here where my home is located there's pretty easy access to over 1500 homes maybe more that's just a guess but its a lot. Getting started here id like to stay in the residential sector.

Where I'm located in PA winter storms can really be hit or miss id say lately we have been getting 4-5 decent snow events and typically what id consider to be a large event every 2-3 years. All in all, knowing what id charge I figure id like to have 50 accounts. My ROI would be around 2-3 years (I'm ok with that) unless we get a mega-storm like we had a couple years ago that would have covered the cost of the skid easily in one storm. I have some friends in the construction industry that I might consider some type of rental deal (yeah I know that's a whole different can of worms) at least do that until I have the cost of the skid taken care of.

I'm a little unsure of what kind of insurance I would need to carry since my truck won't really be part of the what I'm doing other than transporting it from storage to my personal property since I'm not conducting business at my personal property that should fall under my personal auto god forbid something happens in transport. So that leaves me with what kind of insurance would I need to cover myself. Obviously, I would need GL but is there anything else I'm missing. I would be driving the skid on residential streets I'm not 100% sure on the legalities of that in PA but I don't see it being an issue with proper lights make the local police happy. 

Thanks in advance for any advice given I've spent hours reading threads on here trying to absorb as much info as I can.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Yes.


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## tomcat01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Mr.Markus said:


> Yes.


Thanks


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I would still want insurance for the pickup. If the skid breaks, it's your backup.


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## tomcat01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Randall Ave said:


> I would still want insurance for the pickup. If the skid breaks, it's your backup.


Yeah, I've thought about that. My hesitation with that is the cost of a commercial policy. But 100% need to do some thinking about my plan "B"


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

tomcat01 said:


> Yeah, I've thought about that. My hesitation with that is the cost of a commercial policy. But 100% need to do some thinking about my plan "B"


When I had four trucks, one storm by the end I was down to one still running. Ya just never know what will happen.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

You're willing to spend 50-60K on a skid and a blower or plow, but are worried about a thousand dollar commercial auto policy?


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## tomcat01 (Jan 5, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> You're willing to spend 50-60K on a skid and a blower or plow, but are worried about a thousand dollar commercial auto policy?


Never said I was going to buy a new skid. looking used $20-25k. For the little use, it would get it wouldn't make any sense to buy new. Plenty of low hour machines in that price range.

Yeah, any cost I can avoid the faster the ROI...


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Then go ahead and skip the insurance all together. Maybe you'll get an even faster return.


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## tomcat01 (Jan 5, 2011)

yeah, that's a great idea and lose everything when someone slips. I don't have a problem with buying insurance. I have a problem with buying insurance I don't need.


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

Don't mind Jeff, he's just being Jeff. 
Talk to an insurance agent that knows your State's laws. Liability laws and requirements vary by State.


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## tomcat01 (Jan 5, 2011)

k1768 said:


> Don't mind Jeff, he's just being Jeff.
> Talk to an insurance agent that knows your State's laws. Liability laws and requirements vary by State.


lol Luckily I've read a bunch of threads and picked up on that. That's my next step. Not planning on doing this until next season figure now is the time to start putting the plans together.


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

You can try @Ben/Insurance not sure if he covers Pa.


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## snowman55 (Nov 20, 2007)

You have another business?

My advice, like to all others, do not try to make a business from snow removal.

I have and have been successful but it is one of the hardest most unappreciated industry's there is. Ask anyone who has been in business for more than 10 years.

You will miss holidays and birthdays and anniversaries, cancel vacations, have to work when your sick, and become a better forecaster than guys with master degrees.

You will work in miserable weather, drive in dangerous conditions, have clients or rather residents of clients curse, yell at, and belittle you. 

You will have years you make no money and years you you so nothing but live in a plow vehicle.
It will effect your health and sanity.

Enjoy your truck, plow for your self and for fun.

If you still want to plow for income make sure you charge enough to make it worth while and then add 20% more.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Yes, you're crazy. Most of us here are.

DO NOT go into debt to get into the snow removal business.
If you are going to go into business, you need to have a 2nd rig for back up. If all you can afford is a 38" walk behind snow blower, then that's your back up.
Don't skimp on the insurance.


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## tomcat01 (Jan 5, 2011)

snowman55 said:


> You have another business?
> 
> My advice, like to all others, do not try to make a business from snow removal.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'm defiantly not looking to make a career out of it. I would never want that to be my primary source of income.

I know all about the headaches that come with running a business. We have over 1000 clients that we deliver to (office coffee service). I certainly have those types of clients that have no respect. I think also in my market it won't nearly be as busy as you guys out in the midwest. Typically storms are spread out and we don't get a lot.

I appreciate the advice certainly a lot to think about.


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## tomcat01 (Jan 5, 2011)

jonniesmooth said:


> Yes, you're crazy. Most of us here are.
> 
> DO NOT go into debt to get into the snow removal business.
> If you are going to go into business, you need to have a 2nd rig for back up. If all you can afford is a 38" walk behind snow blower, then that's your back up.
> Don't skimp on the insurance.


Absolutely have to watch the debt/risk ratio. I'm basing my plan/budget on absolute worse case scenarios aka no snow.

I've got a couple backups in mind. I've got about 5-6 rental places I could get a rental from. unless it's a MAJOR storm those skids at the rental places are usually available I've had to rent them in the past. I also have a nice commercial 32" Ariens blower.I use to have one of those 36" got rid of it when i got a plow.

As I've said before I DO NOT want "skimp" on insurance for the tool's I'm going to use.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Crazy, no not at all. Nothing wrong with looking and searching for a better way. Think big...but be ready...really ready.

Set it up and run with it...but start slow enough that you are not putting your neck on the chopping block. 

You sound young enough that if you do not do it...there will be a day you wish you had. Do not forget summer is an off season so think about a way to cover that area...pressure washing, fertilizing, bank robbing...etc.

Also...do the math. Write your thoughts down and think about the worst and best situation and factor in the unknown. 

Unless you are making a killing selling coffee you will be better off.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Sit down and read what these guys here talk about...try not to go into debt if you do pay it off in a year. 

If you are paying interest you are loosing.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Concentrate on what your doing, Forget moving snow, It's tough to break into without being a landscaper. I'm in the construction business and that's how I gained my clients. Other than that the landscapers would of put me out of snow & ice a long time ago.

Furthermore with 1500 homes around somebody with a inverted will put you out of business even a pull behind could probably out bid you.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Speaking as someone who started just in snow plowing and continue to just do snow plowing.

my first year I started with one contract and subbed out to a larger company -(I lost money the first season, buying the truck, insurance, etc...)

My second year I picked up 4 hotels and didn't sub -(made money that year and paid the truck off) and every year after expanded picking up more clients. 

I moved slowly and picked the places I wanted to plow.

Now I'm going on 12 years and seriously considering expanding to even bigger places.

I do mostly small to mid sized sites, my largest place takes 6 hours to plow a 3 inch storm and thats with two trucks and a skid on site to get the places the trucks can't -(over 3 miles of road at this place)

One thing I have learned is you need backup.

The last storm, one mia guy, one guy blew his tranny, my plow went down for 1 hour -(cord issues, fixed it on the spot with duct tape, twist ties and some spit, worked for the next 12 hours till I could get to the shop to replace the cord), my other guy was having issues with his tranny.

Storm before that I blew a tire out at 5am -(continued plowing, it was the rear tire on my dually, just went very slow until the tire shop opened)

And the list goes on, so back up is a must ! 

Either another truck, or a someone you know who has a truck, etc...

You can do only snow plowing and make money off it, so don't let anyone deter you from doing it.

As for the skid steer, you would be better off getting yourself a truck with a plow and a back plow if your just doing resident driveways.

If your doing a larger commercial, yes the skidsteer with a 10 foot push box would be great.

I would check also about driving a skid on a public road, I have seen loaders doing it here during blizzards -(nothing smaller than 12 inches) but never saw a skid and they were only going about 500 feet maybe a 1,000 to the next property and nothing further than that and again, I have only seen this with serious snow fall, anything less than 12 inches never saw it happen.

As for insurance, GL is a must and I would start a LLC to play it safe.

Update us and let us know what you decided and how things go for you.


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## tomcat01 (Jan 5, 2011)

MSsnowplowing said:


> Speaking as someone who started just in snow plowing and continues to just do snow plowing.
> 
> my first year I started with one contract and subbed out to a larger company -(I lost money the first season, buying the truck, insurance, etc...)
> 
> ...


Good to hear a success story. Residentials is where I want to start but who knows where it could go.

Back up will be a priority. We have a fleet of 10 or so trucks and we keep a spare truck available at all times.

I'm not sold on the idea of getting another truck. It would have to be a used truck. That right there could be major problem's just looked at a reg cab 2500 new that's $40k even used with a reasonable amount of miles is $30k then it's going to sit the rest of the year with no other use. Not to mention after putting the plow on it will pretty well degrade any resale value.

What is attracting me to the skid option $30k or less would get me a pretty nice machine with low hours. For my purpose, the hours are going to stay pretty low and a life of pushing snow shouldn't be too hard on it. Looking at all these machines I'm seeing even older machines 10-12years old are still getting a pretty decent resale number. In theory, say in 2-3 years I want to get out for some unforeseen reason I should be able to sell the machine and walk away in a good position.

Still, haven't found an answer on driving on the streets. I would mostly be on residential streets and would only need to be on a back road (low traffic) for a very short amount of time. In the summer I drive my Z turn on these streets and have never been bothered.

Right now trying to figure out what brand to look as far as getting quality service and not being ripped off. I've got a case and john deer pretty close to me then I've got multiple Bobcat and Cat dealers within a reasonable driving distance (under an hour).

I will definitely form an LLC and get GL.

I will definitely report back in this thread if I decide to move forward.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

All of us are a success story. I been moving snow since 1977, Your a wholesaler moving coffee etc. Are you going to be happy with a skid steer sitting all summer surely not going to use it in your other business.

How many hours of your time in a day has to be committed to the coffee?
Most of us here plow snow because our main business will not let us work in the Winter because of weather conditions.

Snow and Ice is a love hate relationship and is no trip to the beach. If your looking for more earnings try something related to your other business. FWIW I have seen more fail in moving snow than succeed.

I'm not trying to be DR Doom here and wish you luck if you go with it. I'm a FOG and seen a lot of situations over the years. JMO I think you have a lot to think about. Besides the office if we have a 24 hr event most of us don't have no other obligations to worry about and get our sleep when ever we can.


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## SnowBizGal (Jun 20, 2007)

I'd suggest you attend a trade show - get some live networking and education during the spring and summer to help you made educated decisions. There are many professionals out there who find that live events are the best way to connect with people you learn to trust.


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