# Ice buildup on private road



## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

Hello:

This is my first post. I found you folks via searches for managing ice buildup. I'm on the customer side of things and I'm dealing with a really old seasonal gravel road that is being used for an increasing amount of year round traffic. I was hoping you might be able to offer some suggestions or confirm the feasibility of some things to try.

The road is essentially a long, single-lane driveway serving several properties - some seasonal and some year round. Rain and runoff accumulate on the road and we have limited ability to improve drainage. So, we're basically left with managing what we have.

Some winters, the ice buildup from runoff can be 6+ inches thick and extend over a distance of about 200 feet. Some parts of the road freeze solid while other parts of the ice cover is softer and tends to pothole. Some vehicles have bottomed out and it's generally a mess. Since this is a gravel road with poor drainage, all that has been tried is sand, but with runoff this needs close attention because the sand can be washed away or covered up.

So, this is what I've been thinking - it comes down to always needing to improve traction and maybe try to reduce the volume of ice from time to time:

1. I live on another town maintained dirt road in the winter. The last 3/4s of a mile is up a pretty steep hill. The hill is crowned and has ditches on both sides and there is ice on this road every single winter, but we have had no problems. The town mixes a black crushed rock (maybe 3/8 inch) with the sand they put on the road. This works great since the rock bites into the ice and tires for traction. There will always be ice on the private road too, so not seeing any downside to using small crushed rock to improve traction.

2. I've been reading that serrated plow blades are good for breaking up ice. Do private snow plow contractors typically use something like this or is this more for graders/municipal equipment? If the serrated blades are used, what has been your experience with them on ice?

3. Similar to 2., there are apparently blades with replaceable stinger bits that are also supposed to be good at breaking up ice. Any experience with these?

4. There are some extreme ice management tools that I found on the two sites below, but I haven't seen anything like this in my area. Seems like this is more at the municipal level rather than for a private contractor. Does anyone have any experience with this stuff? 
http://www.team-eagle.ca/raiko-icebreaker/
http://www.ultramech.com/

5. Along the same lines as 4. - what about using a Harley power rake on ice. Within this forum there have been comments made about using a power rake on ice, but I have no idea if this tool is rugged enough. The idea is to grind up the ice when it gets really bad and plow it away - hopefully without taking too much of the road with it. 
http://harleyrakesonline.com/

6. Any other ideas that you've had success with in similar situations?

Thank you for reading...


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Get a truck,
4x4
A set of tire chains or tire studs,

Then park the Beamer in town or in a storage unit.
For easy acess
Or,
Do the proper road work and plow accordingly.

Or buy a road grader....

Or pave it 
Plow it,
Or hire a pro
:waving:

Do you have a tractor?
Where are you located, area, we dint need your address.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Before I go any further, where are you located?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Ever heard of rock salt?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Do tell..............


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Halite, commonly known as rock salt, is a type of salt, the mineral form of sodium chloride (NaCl). Halite forms isometric crystals. The mineral is typically colorless or white, but may also be light blue, dark blue, purple, pink, red, orange, yellow or gray depending on the amount and type of impurities. It commonly occurs with other evaporite deposit minerals such as several of the sulfates, halides, and borates.
Halite occurs in vast beds of sedimentary evaporite minerals that result from the drying up of enclosed lakes, playas, and seas. Salt beds may be hundreds of meters thick and underlie broad areas. In the United States and Canada extensive underground beds extend from the Appalachian basin of western New York through parts of Ontario and under much of the Michigan Basin. Other deposits are in Ohio, Kansas, New Mexico, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan. The Khewra salt mine is a massive deposit of halite near Islamabad, Pakistan. In the United Kingdom there are three mines; the largest of these is at Winsford in Cheshire producing on average a million tonnes per year.

Salt domes are vertical diapirs or pipe-like masses of salt that have been essentially "squeezed up" from underlying salt beds by mobilization due to the weight of overlying rock. Salt domes contain anhydrite, gypsum, and native sulfur, in addition to halite and sylvite. They are common along the Gulf coasts of Texas and Louisiana and are often associated with petroleum deposits. Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, Romania and Iran also have salt domes. Salt glaciers exist in arid Iran where the salt has broken through the surface at high elevation and flows downhill. In all of these cases, halite is said to be behaving in the manner of a rheid.

Unusual, purple, fibrous vein filling halite is found in France and a few other localities. Halite crystals termed hopper crystals appear to be "skeletons" of the typical cubes, with the edges present and stairstep depressions on, or rather in, each crystal face. In a rapidly crystallizing environment, the edges of the cubes simply grow faster than the centers. Halite crystals form very quickly in some rapidly evaporating lakes resulting in modern artifacts with a coating or encrustation of halite crystals.[4] Halite flowers are rare stalactites of curling fibers of halite that are found in certain arid caves of Australia's Nullarbor Plain. Halite stalactites and encrustations are also reported in the Quincy native copper mine of Hancock, Michigan.

Halite is often used both residentially and municipally for managing ice. Because brine (a solution of water and salt) has a lower freezing point than pure water, putting salt or saltwater on ice that is near 0 °C (32 °F) will cause it to melt. (This effect is called freezing-point depression.) It is common for homeowners in cold climates to spread salt on their sidewalks and driveways after a snow storm to melt the ice. It is not necessary to use so much salt that the ice is completely melted; rather, a small amount of salt will weaken the ice so that it can be easily removed by other means. Also, many cities will spread a mixture of sand and salt on roads during and after a snowstorm to improve traction. In addition to de-icing, rock salt is occasionally used in agriculture. An example of this would be inducing salt stress to suppress the growth of annual meadow grass in turf production.

Salt is also used extensively in cooking as a flavor enhancer and to cure a wide variety of foods such as bacon and fish.[5] Larger pieces can be ground in a salt mill or dusted over food from a shaker as finishing salt.

Some cultures, especially in Africa, prefer a wide variety of different rock salts for different dishes. Pure salt is avoided for particular colors of salt indicating the presence of different impurities. Many recipes call for a particular kinds of rock salt, and imported pure salt often has impurities added to adapt to local tastes.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

^^^^^^^^ 

You have to salt the ice. Sometimes you'll just make slush, that gets plowed. The road must be plowed regularly too, even when it doesn't seem like it needs it. Snow that sits turns to ice.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

1olddogtwo;2132017 said:


> Halite, commonly known as rock salt, is a type of salt, the mineral form of sodium chloride (NaCl). Halite forms isometric crystals. The mineral is typically colorless or white, but may also be light blue, dark blue, purple, pink, red, orange, yellow or gray depending on the amount and type of impurities. It commonly occurs with other evaporite deposit minerals such as several of the sulfates, halides, and borates.
> Halite occurs in vast beds of sedimentary evaporite minerals that result from the drying up of enclosed lakes, playas, and seas. Salt beds may be hundreds of meters thick and underlie broad areas. In the United States and Canada extensive underground beds extend from the Appalachian basin of western New York through parts of Ontario and under much of the Michigan Basin. Other deposits are in Ohio, Kansas, New Mexico, Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan. The Khewra salt mine is a massive deposit of halite near Islamabad, Pakistan. In the United Kingdom there are three mines; the largest of these is at Winsford in Cheshire producing on average a million tonnes per year.
> 
> Salt domes are vertical diapirs or pipe-like masses of salt that have been essentially "squeezed up" from underlying salt beds by mobilization due to the weight of overlying rock. Salt domes contain anhydrite, gypsum, and native sulfur, in addition to halite and sylvite. They are common along the Gulf coasts of Texas and Louisiana and are often associated with petroleum deposits. Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, Romania and Iran also have salt domes. Salt glaciers exist in arid Iran where the salt has broken through the surface at high elevation and flows downhill. In all of these cases, halite is said to be behaving in the manner of a rheid.
> ...


I had no idea.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I have a mini grader, but I would just use a truck with plow and salter. Faster and less maintenance... 
Love how people think that grading is easy as just driving the grader down the road and everything is smooth.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus;2132040 said:


> I have a mini grader, but I would just use a truck with plow and salter. Faster and less maintenance...
> Love how people think that grading is easy as just driving the grader down the road and everything is smooth.


It isn't???


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

There are guys on here that have trouble operating/trouble shooting a floating power angle blade...LOL


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

1olddogtwo;2132005 said:


> Ever heard of rock salt?


not on gravel .

It just burns a hole threw the ice
Then it turns the road bese to mud.
Just to refreeze harder than before.

Or a dozer with a ripper.
Even a grader can have a ripper.


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

Thanks for the replies... I'm in northern Vermont.

Salt is not recommended on gravel roads around here as it turns the road to muck. Mud season is bad enough. There are a lot of roads like this and we don't have a bare roads policy pretty much anywhere in the state - too expensive. 

To rebuild the road, to raise it, to fix the drainage, and then maybe consider paving is all very expensive. So, it's a tradeoff - manage what we have versus a big investment. But even after a big investment, we'll still need to manage ice on the road. So, we're looking at total cost of long-term ownership. For example, if it costs $50K for significant improvements plus winter snow and ice maintenance versus just winter snow and ice maintenance plus a little extra ($1K - $2K?) to manage the ice buildup we experience (and it's not excessive every year), then it takes quite awhile to break even on that big investment (and that doesn't include the ongoing costs of maintaining that big investment during the rest of the year). 

So, that's why we're looking at mechanical solutions to the ice buildup - abrasives for traction and some way to break it up or grind it up and plow it away - not melt it. Maybe it's a couple of times during the worst part of winter where we would hire someone with a power rake (if that is even realistic) to take the ice down to a more manageable level where we just use sand and the small crushed rock that I mentioned. Maybe that works and it's less expensive that hiring someone with a bull dozer, for example. We're just looking for ways to minimize the potential that someone won't be able to make it to work or that an emergency vehicle can't make it in. There's always going to be ice, but sometimes we have way too much.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Then the cheapest solution is to own a vehicel or 2 that can negotiate the road.
Studed tires, tire chains 
Buy machinery.
hire it out.
Or move.

In road heating system

The road and winter both existed before the homes did?
the home owners should have weighed the risk of living in such a area.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

How long is this road...?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus;2132064 said:


> How long is this road...?


Beginning to end.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;2132066 said:


> Beginning to end.


Not sure why but I laughed a lot at this one


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes;2132066 said:


> Beginning to end.


Sounds long winded...


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;2132066 said:


> Beginning to end.


Good answer! xysport:salute::waving:Thumbs Up


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Be proactive, plow the snow off before it gets packed and keep plowing the road when it snows


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## allagashpm (Sep 29, 2012)

I think your best bet is have a few guys come in and look at it. I'm sure in northern Vermont there's 100 guys with tractors offering driveway repair. 
Have them address the drainage issues correctly. You won't spend 50 grand on that and you won't have 6 inches of ice 200 feet long.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

This sounds like it could be an episode of Ice Road Truckers....


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

LapeerLandscape;2132131 said:


> This sounds like it could be an episode of Ice Road Truckers....


Wait, this isnt the road to Bernie's Tree Farm, where he grows money?

Yeah I had a brain fart on the gravel and rock salt.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Drop all the trees along the road so the sun can cook it off. Have a grader come in for a day to but a slight crown on the road and cut a ditch along the side of a road. If there's a significant change in elevation you may need to but in a few culvert pipes for better drainage.
Plow then push back windrows and spread cinders/sand.


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

The overall road length is just under one-half mile and at most it's only 11-12 feet wide.

I agree that there is more that should be done in addition to managing the ice. Proper vehicle with studded tires, increase fuel oil storage capacity, maybe a backup heating source, etc. All good ideas regardless of our particular road conditions - we've had a number of bad storms over the years where power is lost and it can take days to dig everyone out.

The costs to upgrade the road would be significant - similar projects in the area are being used for comparison. The road was established more than 75 years ago and only as a seasonal road. The comment about people understanding the risks about living there is spot on, but that's another tradeoff - the road is reasonable most of the time and it's a nice place otherwise.

Plowing isn't an issue - we're able to keep up with that. It's the freeze-thaw-freeze cycles and late fall/early winter rains that freeze and accumulate. The road runs south to north and the east side is up a slight hill. So, after a rain storm or a warm day the runoff makes its way to the road and then freezes there. 

You would think that a berm or a ditch is part of the answer (and it still may be), but there are too many entry points (like driveways and other east-side access) for the runoff to get back onto the roadway. So, the simple things get more complicated and more expensive to implement. We would need culverts - lots of them, for example. Culverts up here also have a tendency to freeze up, which would cause the ditches to overflow onto the road, and leave us with ice buildup like we have now.

The years where it gets cold early and stays cold are the good years - not much ice. The bad years, the milder winters, where there's lots of water available to freeze are the ones that would also have the potential to clog and overwhelm a ditch and culvert system and present a similar ice buildup to what we're currently dealing with. That's another concern - invest in improvements that require more annual maintenance ($$$) and they may not end up helping during the really bad years when we need them.

So, in the end, we would need a way to deal with ice buildup. It all seems to come back to this.

Also, trees aren't an issue - no leaves in the winter and the road has plenty of direct exposure.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

ah ok so more diligent attention to the road is out....
Until you address the drainage issues you will need to address your vehicles.

back to cost, buying equipment to deal with the ice
hire a service, grade the road, move, buy or equip vehicles to drive over it.

it seems a little naive to assume this seasonal road will be ice or snow free...
soo you have choices, spend the money now to fix the road or buy vehicles that can pass over the road regardless of conditions.

ps inst this "seasonal road" technically closed in the winter?

next suggestion. http://www.newhavenhelicoptercharters.com/


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mr.Markus;2132040 said:


> I have a mini grader, but I would just use a truck with plow and salter. Faster and less maintenance...
> Love how people think that grading is easy as just driving the grader down the road and everything is smooth.


Finish grade getting ready for asphalt you better be really good on a grader. This is not simple.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG;2132201 said:


> Finish grade getting ready for asphalt you better be really good on a grader. This is not simple.


hugh???
its far from rocket science...
Even I can do it.:laughing::laughing::laughing:

(how do I know? because I have)

a cat to remove the snow, the blade has teeth also.
and a tiller to grind it up.
a nice used one for 70k


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

No funds to improve the road for year round use leaves one option which is don't plow and use tracked vehicles to access properties. This is common practice oot west and it's part of choosing to live in a remote area.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG;2132201 said:


> Finish grade getting ready for asphalt you better be really good on a grader. This is not simple.


I'll bet Mr. Markus has never even seen a grader, right Fred?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

The road has to be ditched on both sides. A crown and all water will run to ditches. If your ditches are filling up and overflowing into the road you have to figure out why it's not flowing. You could need a retention pond somewhere.

You need to get everybody that lives there and get a donation for the work. You only would need a small mid or mini excavator and a bulldozer or grader, roller, If it can be done with a Dover you will probably save a few bucks. 

Water is easy to run if you know what your doing. You probably won't have to haul anything off you could just lose it on site. You may not have to haul any material in either. Where is this road. Get a plan together, Sounds like a nice inexpensive job. Depending where you live I'll give you a price on it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

BUFF;2132208 said:


> No funds to improve the road for year round use leaves one option which is don't plow and use tracked vehicles to access properties. This is common practice oot west and it's part of choosing to live in a remote area.


Thumbs Up
we have friends in CO, who use a old sno-cat for access while parking their cars and trucks at he end of the "seasonal" road for the winter.

no money for that,leaves a act of god or you equip your vehicle to deal with it or hike...

there is no magic pill that will make it go away.

or have every property owner pitch in some $$$ yearly to take care of the issue.

ps we used a power harrow to chew up ice flows at a ski area I worked at


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BTW OP, pretty sure a Harley rake will not stand up to being used on ice.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2132205 said:


> hugh???
> its far from rocket science...
> Even I can do it.:laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing::laughing: That will take care of the snow and ice problem. No repairs need with owning that.


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

Mark Oomkes;2132226 said:


> BTW OP, pretty sure a Harley rake will not stand up to being used on ice.


That seems like speculation - not direct experience. Just wondering under what conditions of normal landscaping use that a power rake will fail.

Three people on this forum have mentioned the use of a Harley power rake on ice (terraventure, JB1, and Four Seasons), but I'm not sure what that means with respect to how well the tool held up to that use. The power rake seems to be able to take quite a bit of abuse where there are a lot of rocks in the soil being worked, for example.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RMAguy;2132713 said:


> That seems like speculation - not direct experience. Just wondering under what conditions of normal landscaping use that a power rake will fail.
> 
> Three people on this forum have mentioned the use of a Harley power rake on ice (terraventure, JB1, and Four Seasons), but I'm not sure what that means with respect to how well the tool held up to that use. The power rake seems to be able to take quite a bit of abuse where there are a lot of rocks in the soil being worked, for example.


No, it isn't experience.

But one doesn't use a Harley rake on bedrock, because it will not hold up. And ice is more like bedrock than soil with a few rocks mixed in.

My experience is based on soil types and catching some concrete\asphalt occasionally. The Harley rake will bounce up and down when it hits something like a large rock or the edge of concrete\asphalt. Rather violently on concrete. Eventually it will chew up asphalt and it will break concrete edges, but while it's doing that, it's beating the crap out of the rake and the arms and the carbide teeth. It's not something I would do with a $7k piece of equipment.

You did ask for advice, and while I could be wrong, I'd bet $100 it wouldn't hold up to more than maybe a half dozen uses.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Harley rake is not the tool, Not heavy enough, Not intended for highway use. As stated above fix the road, Or find some kind of track machine. You need to figure out how to get rid of water. Not away to plow up, dig up ice. It's a simple project to run water. Maybe you can rent some equipment and do it yourself. You will need a laser or site gas to get your proper grades. Proper ditching you may not have to do much on the road.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

people on here are professionals and know what they are doing. id suggest finding one of them in your area and have them take a look at it. chances are the consultation is free and it may be way cheaper than you expect.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Broncslefty7;2132744 said:


> people on here are professionals and know what they are doing. id suggest finding one of them in your area and have them take a look at it. chances are the consultation is free and it may be way cheaper than you expect.


I agree, Nice little job, Maybe there is only a few problem areas.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

OP, A couple of pics would help to actually see what you got. You might even find someone on here for a good price close to you. A contractor with two operators and one laborer will knock that out quick. I know if I was close I would be very interested.


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

Thank you for the feedback.

Consultations aren't free. This is a private road, but still subject to town and state regulations and permitting for things like storm water management - which also are not free. To comply, typically means hiring a civil engineer. Like I said, similar projects in the area have been pricey.

Ideally, fix the road - I do get that, but I need other options. If a power rake is not the way to go, that's fine. 

Maybe I can try a different set of questions. Would anyone here take on a client with the road situation that I've described? What would you do when there is a winter with serious ice buildup? Would you be concerned that your plow would be damaged on the ice? Would you be able to handle spreading small crushed rock with sand?


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Here, ice over gravel get's torpedo/sharp/concrete sand with 10-30% rock salt mixed into it. The rock salt is mostly to keep the sand from freezing. It won't do much to remove the ice, but it gives you temporary traction to get through. THe problem is that the ice will still continue to build up, and the melting/re-freezing mess in spring and winter warm spells won't improve.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

RMAguy;2132784 said:


> Thank you for the feedback.
> 
> Consultations aren't free. This is a private road, but still subject to town and state regulations and permitting for things like storm water management - which also are not free. To comply, typically means hiring a civil engineer. Like I said, similar projects in the area have been pricey.
> 
> ...


Okay so repair of the road out, Would I take the contract for snow removal next winter? Yes, Would I worry about wrecking equipment Yes without looking at it.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

RMAguy;2132784 said:


> Thank you for the feedback.
> 
> Consultations aren't free. This is a private road, but still subject to town and state regulations and permitting for things like storm water management - which also are not free. To comply, typically means hiring a civil engineer. Like I said, similar projects in the area have been pricey.
> 
> ...


So your saying everything is not free in Sanders land....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape;2132799 said:


> So your saying everything is not free in Sanders land....


Lmao.........


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

LapeerLandscape;2132799 said:


> So your saying everything is not free in Sanders land....


How aboot Bagels.........


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

How aboot a pic of this treacherous section of road.

next idea.
How aboot a row of parabolic reflectors?
aimed at the icy area,
use the free energy from the sun to melt the ice.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

This doesn't sound any different than doing private drives in my area, would I do it? Yes. Would I worry about broken equipment? It's a concern on everything I do. 
I have done access roads for utilities,cell phone towers, private residence drives and farms. Usually at a fraction of what what equipment would cost them to buy themselves.
Price and availability would depend on how far out is is from the route, that is more of a concern than the actually execution of the job.700 lbs of sand/ salt mix would be more than enoug to treat 1/2 mile ice covered road.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

SnoFarmer;2132823 said:


> How aboot a pic of this treacherous section of road.
> 
> next idea.
> How aboot a row of parabolic reflectors?
> ...


How aboot Geothermal or Solar to heat the road?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

LapeerLandscape;2132799 said:


> So your saying everything is not free in Sanders land....


I'm changing my vote if this indeed is true.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

^ what's your salt ratio as no one wants a mud hole.
Then after it refreezes and it will, it will take even more salt.

Making mud sounds fine but it will be a greater mess in the spring.

Salt and dirt roads don't mix.

In a lot of areas you can actually hire the county to clear your road..
You may want to look into it.

Clearing ice with a grader.





Or use a ice buster.
But you may need a tractor or bobcat.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

BUFF;2132846 said:


> How aboot Geothermal or Solar to heat the road?


They could probably get a grant for that.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Decomposing manure gives off aloot of heat also.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

We have a private/not county maintained road/2 track in our area that sounds like this. They have ask us to plow it and we said no thank you, its bad enough in the summer. There is a steep hill towards the end that cars always get stuck on. The local tow truck drivers when called to go out there always ask, are you before the hill or after. If your after your out of luck, they wont go.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

BUFF;2132846 said:


> How aboot Geothermal or Solar to heat the road?


Parabolic reflectors use solar.Thumbs Up

Does the op have a hot spring?

Or use one of these to clear the iceawY


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Ok ok,
Just having some fun.

Ahem..

On a more serious note,
A Kubota L3949.




The car stuck at 59sec. & again at 1:50 in


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;2132882 said:


> Ok ok,
> Just having some fun.
> 
> Ahem..
> ...


Is that 1olddogtwo? Pretty sure I've heard that laugh before. .....


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

I vote for d11 with 3 blade ripper


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I can't believe no one has mentioned Jet-A and a match.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2132918 said:


> I can't believe no one has mentioned Jet-A and a match.


How about a brine sprayer turned into a torch?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2132918 said:


> I can't believe no one has mentioned Jet-A and a match.


That would be fun. You throw the match tho.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Whiffyspark;2132941 said:


> How about a brine sprayer turned into a torch?


Napalm............


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;2132891 said:


> Is that 1olddogtwo? Pretty sure I've heard that laugh before. .....


Never been to Vermont (license plate on car?) In the winter.... Could have been my bro tho


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

Mr.Markus;2132841 said:


> This doesn't sound any different than doing private drives in my area, would I do it? Yes. Would I worry about broken equipment? It's a concern on everything I do.
> I have done access roads for utilities,cell phone towers, private residence drives and farms. *Usually at a fraction of what what equipment would cost them to buy themselves.
> *Price and availability would depend on how far out is is from the route, that is more of a concern than the actually execution of the job.700 lbs of sand/ salt mix would be more than enoug to treat 1/2 mile ice covered road.


The bold and underlined portion is exactly the way we're thinking about this - we're not looking to go into business for ourselves. A person that does this work as a business can distribute their equipment costs across their customer base. We're just not sure what people would typically have for available equipment. If it's a four season business with landscaping in the summer, then a power rake may be available. If a power rake is no good on ice, then maybe they have some other tools.


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

SnoFarmer;2132849 said:


> ^ what's your salt ratio as no one wants a mud hole.
> Then after it refreezes and it will, it will take even more salt.
> 
> Making mud sounds fine but it will be a greater mess in the spring.
> ...


The situation here is that the town disavows responsibility for all private roads. So, the town will not plow or anything else. New developments are setup as homeowners associations - which means private roads. So, taxes for municipal services don't go up, but if you live on a private road your little community is responsible for all maintenance, repairs, improvements - via dues (another tax, really) paid to the HOA. Older private roads may or may not be set up as an HOA.

I also came across the IceBuster picture in my internet searches, but have not had any luck tracking it down.

I mentioned the serrated blades in my first post - similar to what is used in the grader YouTube video.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Put it out for bid locally. How far to a city where you could find a contractor? This should not break You. 1/2 mile 11' wide of road, No big thing. In house snow removal has a poor success rate.


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

SnoFarmer;2132882 said:


> Ok ok,
> Just having some fun.
> 
> Ahem..
> ...


Okay, that video is very interesting in the way the ice is broken up.

The same idea as this: 
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dr+power+grader&&view=detail&mid=F36D59B4BF0A949DDE17F36D59B4BF0A949DDE17&rvsmid=F36D59B4BF0A949DDE17F36D59B4BF0A949DDE17&FORM=VDMCNL&fsscr=0

The mini grader (DR PowerGrader) may even be within our price range - ~$800.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

RMAguy;2132979 said:


> Okay, that video is very interesting in the way the ice is broken up.
> 
> The same idea as this:
> http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dr+power+grader&&view=detail&mid=F36D59B4BF0A949DDE17F36D59B4BF0A949DDE17&rvsmid=F36D59B4BF0A949DDE17F36D59B4BF0A949DDE17&FORM=VDMCNL&fsscr=0
> ...


I don't think that mini grader thing is going to work for you. You have to spread something besides rock salt. Cinders etc. Maybe somebody will respond with some king of mix that won't muck up the gravel. Plowed at somewhat of a regular basis will make it less icy. You just might have some hard pack. Whats up with the pics? Sno was probably pulling your leg with the video of the masked guy laughing pulling that other thing.:laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

That was a mask?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

FredG;2132998 said:


> I don't think that mini grader thing is going to work for you.


Ice picks would work better than one of those tinker toys......


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2133000 said:


> That was a mask?


If it wasn't, That's one ugly MF.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF;2133003 said:


> Ice picks would work better than one of those tinker toys......


Buzzkill.

It would have worked for the first storm............maybe. Someone would have gotten sick of it after the first 5 minutes of novelty wore off.

OP, you've gotten good advice. Take it or leave it, but posting something like a DR attachment is wasting our time.



FredG;2133004 said:


> If it wasn't, That's one ugly MF.


I swear that was Pat's laugh...........


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2133006 said:


> Buzzkill.
> 
> It would have worked for the first storm............maybe. Someone would have gotten sick of it after the first 5 minutes of novelty wore off.
> 
> ...


:laughing::laughing::laughing: Easy Bro, Well put tho.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I agree that a lot of that is toy stuff for the homeowner. Even the landplane on the L3940. Your cheapest bet is a used plow truck and spreader, or better yet hiring someone reliable.

I have a box scraper on my L4630 that is heavier than the landplane and I wouldn't like those results. One cut down the crown...

...and this is a mini grader...LOL


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

I'm not really sure about the overall quality of the advice...

*These are representative of the ideas offered from the members on this forum so far:
*
Flame throwers?
Napalm?
Parabolic reflectors?
Brine sprayer turned into a torch?
Jet A and a match?
Geothermal?
In road heating system?
Cut down all trees?
Decomposing manure?
Ice pick or ice chisel?

All very bad ideas.

Power harrow - may only work on ice flows at ski areas and not on private roads

Land plane with ripper teeth - seems to work, tool not damaged

The suggestions about salt on a gravel road - bad idea.

Buy complete snow removal rig (vehicle, plow, spreader, etc.) - too expensive.

The suggestions about fixing the road - good - but not going to happen anytime soon.

Hiring someone - good idea - but if all that can be offered is to push/plow the snow and spread sand, then that is what we have today.

Use AWD vehicles with studded tires - got 'em

Use track vehicles - too expensive

*I identified these ideas:*

Mix small crushed rock with sand - we will do this

Hiring someone with snow equipment using a serrated blade or a blade with stinger bits that actually breaks up the ice and plows it away - may be an excellent idea when the road is also frozen - but it seems that this type of equipment is not something that an independent contractor (as opposed to a municipality) would invest in. No one has mentioned whether or not they ever use these types of blades.

Harley power rake - may not hold up on ice

DR PowerGrader - homeowner grader with ripper teeth - may be an option for summer grading - may not hold up on ice

Icebuster - only one reference from 2007 - likely only used at the municipal level

Raiko Icebreaker - looks like it's only used/affordable at the municipal level

Ultramech Arctic Shark - looks like it's only used/affordable at the municipal level

So, other than the question on blades (serrated or stinger bits), that seems to cover it. Thank you for your time.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

I sense this is a very serious situation. 

did anyone else just randomly start laughing their ass off lol


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Unfortunately I have quoted far too many of these.....


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Whiffyspark;2133141 said:


> I sense this is a very serious situation.
> 
> did anyone else just randomly start laughing their ass off lol


Right there with ya....


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I think the manure needs to be reconsidered.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Unfortunately your budget for equipment is less than a bunch of hand tools. Once again you got a very simple job. If you have no money to invest or pay a contractor you just going to do your best. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken $h!t. Does anybody have any source of earnings on this road.

I know if it was my choice to live there I would be sure I could get in and out safely. And I would not go broke doing it. I know were a ruff bunch but you received some very good advice. You just don't want to accept it. I still think you got hard pack not ice. Whatever way we show it rude or politely everybody on PS is trying to help.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

You serious Clark?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

:laughing::laughing:

That power harow is used by farmers and contractors to renovate 
Compacted Dirt that is harder than ice is. 
At a ski hill it sees light duty use , 8" of rock solid ice is nothing for it.

It can drill right threw the hardest ice at sub zeros temps.
It would rip up your road


Your budget is, find some folks with the equipment tha can do the job.
And have them bid it.
Then split it up the cost between the hoa members.

It is what it is,
If you can't afford it , move or deal with it.
As your not willing to fix the cause or even tell us what the cause is.
Good luck let us know how it goes..


Ps we can give you a cornucopia if ideas all that will work.and we have
But the up front cost is higher, and somone has to do the work.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RMAguy;2133140 said:


> I'm not really sure about the overall quality of the advice...
> 
> *These are representative of the ideas offered from the members on this forum so far:
> *
> ...


A bunch of folks have asked for pics. Nothing

Information has not exactly been readily available, a lot more could have been given initially.

Yes, we made a lot of jokes, mainly because of the lack of pics and info. Still, there has been some valid suggestions and you come back with a POS DR grader\whatever that wouldn't stand up to your use. But if you can only afford $800 for that thing, but don't like my opinion that a $7,000 piece of equipment will likely not stand up to the abuse it will receive but want someone to gamble on their $7,000 piece of equipment being destroyed, yeah, I tend to get a bit more sarcastic than usual.

Would I take the job on? Depends, not without seeing it or pics. I try to stay away from gravel, but that's because most everything is paved around here. In a different area, I wouldn't say no without looking at it.

Good luck.


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

SnoFarmer;2133255 said:


> :laughing::laughing:
> 
> That power harow is used by farmers and contractors to renovate
> Compacted Dirt that is harder than ice is.
> ...


Please see my comments imbedded in the quote above...


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

Mark Oomkes;2133369 said:


> A bunch of folks have asked for pics. Nothing
> 
> Information has not exactly been readily available, a lot more could have been given initially.
> 
> ...


Please see my comments embedded in the above quote...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2133369 said:


> Would I take the job on? Depends, not without seeing it or pics.


You may want to rethink this Buckaroo........


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Yes you can control the depth of the harrow,
but even a used harrow is going to break the bank, 
and you will need a tractor that is big enough to run it.




take a look at aboot the 58sec point,
I think it can handle your road.....

^this is actually a bigger joke than my first vid.
Even thou it had some humor in it, it is a option.
It may need to have more down psi applied and a few teeth raised so it can penetrate,


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I have had experience plowing gravel, Fire lanes around huge factory's, Gravel roads leading two wind towers etc. If you can just keep it plowed on a regular basis this will solve a lot of your problem. 

Do you know what one means when they say hard pack? You are going about this the wrong way. Try thinking like this, What can I do to prevent ice from forming. Not what to do when Ice and hard pack is already there.

Ice or hard pack is tough to remove on any roadway. Blacktop, Concrete or gravel. Lets face the facts, At the minimal you need a plow truck. Would not be my choice but you have a small budget, You claim you all have 4x4 so maybe kept clean you don't need a spreader. Watch the municipality actions in your area, You can find a decent plow truck with plow and records for somewhere around $3k.

If the HOA don't agree with this realistic minimal investment. Then I agree with Mark and your wasting time and the post will turn into more of a joke.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

> Originally Posted by Mark Oomkes View Post
> A bunch of folks have asked for pics. Nothing
> 
> Information has not exactly been readily available, a lot more could have been given initially.
> ...


10 characters so it will post


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

RMAguy;2133393 said:


> .
> RMAguy => I did tell you the cause. Runoff has nowhere to go but on the road and it freezes there. Improving drainage is NOT currently an option.
> ..


 Ok so why is improving drainage not a option.?

It is a landscape issue .a inadequate road cut.
Hire somone with a back hoe / track hoe, dozer, to fix the issue.
Ditching up hill to direct the run off to a central ditch, ditch road, install catch basin and culvert,Or run a deep and wide ditch across road and fill with riprap.

This is why pics play an important roll in us giving advice that pertains to the real issue at hand.

Or trow money at it a littel at a time. Or deal with the cause.
Enjoy your rural setting.
If this is your only issue....

Again just a stab in the dark.
Got any pics?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I thought of this thread while I sanded the Water Tower Rd for our Town, 3 times in todays Freezing rain downpour, without incident...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus;2133477 said:


> I thought of this thread while I sanded the Water Tower Rd for our Town, 3 times in todays Freezing rain downpour, without incident...


Oh.....the mud..........how could you?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes;2133478 said:


> Oh.....the mud..........how could you?


I love the slop...my father was a mudder...






My mother was a mudder...


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

RMAguy;2132968 said:


> The situation here is that the town disavows responsibility for all private roads. So, the town will not plow or anything else. New developments are setup as homeowners associations - which means private roads. So, taxes for municipal services don't go up, but if you live on a private road your little community is responsible for all maintenance, repairs, improvements - via dues (another tax, really) paid to the HOA. Older private roads may or may not be set up as an HOA.
> 
> I also came across the IceBuster picture in my internet searches, but have not had any luck tracking it down.
> 
> I mentioned the serrated blades in my first post - similar to what is used in the grader YouTube video.


I think we understand taking care of private property, it's kind of what we all do for the most part.
Are you just here to ***** cause you have to take care of your private road?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

The OP should of paid for the advice he got on his situation, He won't send pics and can't afford a plow truck. Wants to spend $800.00 to try to solve his issues.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ask Bernie for government funds to take care of the private road.....


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I've been giving this some thought, build a bridge over the sensitive geological area.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

SnoFarmer;2134066 said:


> I've been giving this some thought, build a bridge over the sensitive geological area.


Too costly, use a hovercraft....


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

BUFF;2134070 said:


> Too costly, use a hovercraft....


That's just smart thinking.
And a great solution at $700 under budget too.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Doesn't DR make a personal hovercraft?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

SnoFarmer;2134071 said:


> That's just smart thinking.
> And a great solution at $700 under budget too.


Jake and his Dad have more tools available than the OP...


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

SnoFarmer;2134066 said:


> I've been giving this some thought, build a bridge over the sensitive geological area.


Common on, don't be silly

It needs to be a covered bridge


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mr.Markus;2134086 said:


> Jake and his Dad have more tools available than the OP...


One tool dad needs is a pair of clippers to cut Jakes hair.......


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

You guys are brutalized. Poor fella, NOT!!!!


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

I can't help but laugh my ass off everytime I've opened this thread


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## RMAguy (Mar 21, 2016)

SnoFarmer;2133405 said:


> *Yes you can control the depth of the harrow,
> *but even a used harrow is going to break the bank,
> and you will need a tractor that is big enough to run it.
> 
> ...


Like I said we're not looking to buy a power harrow. Many local farmers earn extra money by selling plants for vegetable gardens, selling locally grown produce, producing maple syrup, etc. We can check in with a few of them and see if they have a power harrow and if they might be willing to help us out a couple of times during the winter.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

guessing we can put a wrap on this one

thanks :waving:


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