# 12 Volt DC motor question



## Kubota 8540

How do I figure out what 12 volt motor http://www.leeson.com/Products/products/DCMotors/scrrated.html I need to operate a roller pump http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.851.882/1187? The motor needs to turn at 1000 rpm. It has to have enough torque to spin the pump under full fluid load?


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## forestfireguy

Thats a great question, but I don't know the answer, I'd assume the pump dealer could give required specs and then you could match up the motor, but with a motor and pump in those styles you'd need a coupler of some kind I think??


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## BigLou80

The motor manufacturer should be able to tell you what will work for your application. What are you planning on doing ? 

None of the motors linked to are 12 volts, the amp draw to do what you want to do at 12 volts would be more then most 12 volt vehicle systems can provide for more then a few seconds. A 2 HP 12V motor (if avialable) which I would think to be the minimum you want is going to draw over 138 amps assuming I did my math right. Even with a 200 amp alternator and dual batteries your not going to sustain those amps for long 
you might do better with a faster spinning lower HP motor and a gear reduction but I have no idea what you are trying to do


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## deicepro

The biggest 12v motor that I have found was 1hp and 80amps at full load
I did the same thing you are thinking, but I had to use a "gearbox" to reduce
the rpms for the pump, yes you need a coupling from motor to pump
also, buy a better spyder for the coupling, better spyders "amplify" the power of the motor
a little bit


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## Kubota 8540

I would like to have a high output electric sprayer setup. The connector would be no problem, a lovejoy coupling would work fine. Problem was when I started looking for an electric motor. Either the rpm was too high, which I thought could be controlled by a variable speed controller, like on an electric salt spreader, or the amperage seemed huge. If the amperage is so high, how do these spreaders work or handle the amperage required?


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## Kubota 8540

deicepro;980523 said:


> The biggest 12v motor that I have found was 1hp and 80amps at full load
> I did the same thing you are thinking, but I had to use a "gearbox" to reduce
> the rpms for the pump, yes you need a coupling from motor to pump
> also, buy a better spyder for the coupling, better spyders "amplify" the power of the motor
> a little bit


Did you make a setup with a roller pump? I just did a lovejoy coupling for my electric brinemaker and upgraded to the better quality Hytrel spyder.


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## JohnnyU

The problem is that in order to run at full torque, electric motors need to run at a certain rate. If it were me, I would look for something that was rated at 2-3X my desired speed, then build a reduction housing to give you your desired output speed. Roller chain would probably be sufficient for power transfer at those low speeds.


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## BigLou80

I am not sure of what you are trying to spray but the pumps listed in your link will do 60GPM at 1000RPM, that will empty out a 375 gallon tank(assuming pickup truck) in 6 minutes you sure you want that much flow ? 

I would say you need a smaller pump that operates at higher RPM's . The pumps in your links are made for tractor PTO's. Not DC electric motors

Assuming you want to spray de incing products, you don't need much of a pump at all, the tank is mounted above the outlet (so there is no head) and the head pressure will do most of the work. How many GPM's do you need and how much out put pressure do you want?


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## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;980566 said:


> I am not sure of what you are trying to spray but the pumps listed in your link will do 60GPM at 1000RPM, that will empty out a 375 gallon tank(assuming pickup truck) in 6 minutes you sure you want that much flow ?
> 
> I would say you need a smaller pump that operates at higher RPM's . The pumps in your links are made for tractor PTO's. Not DC electric motors
> 
> Assuming you want to spray de incing products, you don't need much of a pump at all, the tank is mounted above the outlet (so there is no head) and the head pressure will do most of the work. How many GPM's do you need and how much out put pressure do you want?


Actually the pump I would likely use would be 1 step smaller...
http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.851.882/1186

I've seen the electric sprayers that are available and they are cute. I'm not one to make a 2 mph pass to spray a 7' wide strip on a 75' wide parking area, I'm thinking more in the terms of 25' pass minimum at 6-10 mph quietly. The roller pump sprayer on the Kubota will spray a 25' pass at 4-6 mph while rattling the windows at 4 AM. I would rather have to much capacity and have to recirculate it than to have to slow down and make multiple passes.? With an electric sprayer on the pickup truck, there's no starting a cold gas engine, no refueling, etc. Just flip the switch and spray? I would like to end up with about 25-35 gpm even if I have to recirculate a little of that.


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## Westhardt Corp.

Answer me this--how much flow do you want? There are widely available 12V pumps---_pumps_ that will flow some serious numbers. Also, remember that electric motors produce their maximum torque at zero RPMs--yes, zero. Your main issue will be how to regulate the RPMs, but there are some pretty heavy duty motor controllers available, as well.


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## Kubota 8540

Westhardt Corp.;980640 said:


> Answer me this--how much flow do you want? There are widely available 12V pumps---_pumps_ that will flow some serious numbers. Also, remember that electric motors produce their maximum torque at zero RPMs--yes, zero. Your main issue will be how to regulate the RPMs, but there are some pretty heavy duty motor controllers available, as well.


I would like to have about 25-35 gpm at a max of 60 psi. Even if I had to redirect or recirculate some of it, I really don't like coming up short.


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## Westhardt Corp.

Next questions--what are you pumping, and what's your budget? I'll do some looking around later---gotta run.


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## Kubota 8540

Westhardt Corp.;980662 said:


> Next questions--what are you pumping, and what's your budget? I'll do some looking around later---gotta run.


I'm low budget when spending and high budget when billing? :laughing: Right now salt brine/ calcium chloride mix, but looking to be able to spray other de-iciers also possibly?


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## BigLou80

There are lots of premade 12 volt pumps. After some googling I see that most premade units run electric diaphram and gas centrifugal pumps. Your flow rates seem high but I don't really know a whole lot about spaying deicer.

If you want electric I would look at getting several smaller pumps ganged up to do the job. With multiple smaller pumps you will get some built in redundancy and the ability to keep an inexpensive pump in stock

Here is a pump for salt water (should work for what you want) http://www.pumpstoreusa.com/assets/store/catalog/45-46.pdf There is no head in your application so you will be at the most GPH on the curve

you could also use a few of these http://www.realgoods.com/product/wa...high+flow+pump,+pump+shurflo+high+flow+12v.do won't give you the GPM you want but I think you could make it work.


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## BigLou80

Westhardt Corp.;980640 said:


> Also, remember that electric motors produce their maximum torque at zero RPMs--yes, zero.


I was trying to explain this to some one who was looking at an aircompressor. The HP listed is MAX brake HP. Its the fraction of a second burst you get before the motor explodes


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## Kubota 8540

I would like to set up a serious 12 volt electric sprayer for MY truck. I have set up gas engine powered centrifugal poly pump sprayers which are high volume low pressure. I have set up pto driven roller pump low volume high pressure sprayers. I have set up 220 volt electric / poly pumps. But I have no experience with a 12 volt electric sprayer system. The simplified design of either ON/OFF is something that sounds real good to me. No starting a cold gas engine, no need to carry fuel to refill, and no to little noise. The electric sprayers I have seen will cover 1 lane (if you call 7'-8' a lane) and 15 gal/ min at a max of 30 psi. I'm not saying these are not good, I'm saying it's not what I want.

I would like to have a system that will pump up to 25-35 gal/min and working pressure of up to 60 psi. Yes, I already know higher pressure is not needed for de-icing liquids. The pump link will cover this and a little to spare.

Tank...... http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=A-PU0205-52
Motor?...... http://www.leeson.com/Products/products/DCMotors/lowvoltage.html
Lovejoy coupling ...... http://www.dultmeier.com/products/search/740
Pump.... http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.851.882/1186
Controller? .....http://www.leeson.com/Products/products/DCControls/lowvoltage.html

Setting up the sprayer and spray bar is not a problem.

How do you determine which motor, and controller / reducer gear box is the question. I'm not able to do the buy and try strategy on this one. I have seen prices on these motors at $500, pumps between $350-$850, lovejoys $40-$80, tanks at $350, controllers $ ???, gear boxes $ ???.

I'd like to get this one right the first time?

If you have already done this please post some pictures and / or part #'s.

If you have worked with these motors and controllers or gear boxes, tell me what you figured out?


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## Grassman09

Once you have it all figured out let me know and I will copy it. Looking to sell in Canada? I'll take some of that chocolate chip cookie brine but I want it made with chocolate milk not salt water or water. Have you looked at Rittenhouse or see if Dultimier knows?

Oh will you still use the Gas on the trailer for delivering liquid?


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## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;980709 said:


> Once you have it all figured out let me know and I will copy it. Looking to sell in Canada? I'll take some of that chocolate chip cookie brine but I want it made with chocolate milk not salt water or water. Have you looked at Rittenhouse or see if Dultimier knows?
> 
> Oh will you still use the Gas on the trailer for delivering liquid?


Once I get it figured out I will triple the price and sell it to you Canadians just like the other designs.?

Chocolate milk would be a must for that, although a little salt is good with it.

Not much luck on Dultmeier. Rittenhouse is Canadian and to expensive for me.

Yes I will still use the gas setup on the trailer to deliver, but not to Canada! :laughing:


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## Grassman09

Kubota 8540;980716 said:


> Once I get it figured out I will triple the price and sell it to you Canadians just like the other designs.?
> Not much luck on Dultmeier. Rittenhouse is Canadian and to expensive for me.


Rittenhouse is American as well they have us prices and a us warehouse and Canadian. 
They buy it all cheap in the usa stock it in there warehouse there send it to there Canadian place and then rape the farmers is Niagara cuz they dont know any better and need it pronto.



Kubota 8540;980716 said:


> Yes I will still use the gas setup on the trailer to deliver, but not to Canada! :laughing:


Oh come on now I've been nice to you. Return the favor.
Will you go to Carpenterville and look at that truck for me if i need it? You are a carpenter after all are you not? You will be in 7th heaven.:laughing:


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## forestfireguy

Turbo turf sells ready to go 12V pumps, maybe more econimical in the end considering tinkering time, shopping and shipping from 4-5 different places?????


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## Kubota 8540

forestfireguy;980745 said:


> Turbo turf sells ready to go 12V pumps, maybe more econimical in the end considering tinkering time, shopping and shipping from 4-5 different places?????


I have seen those and they were a thought, http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.851.857/1356 but they have a max psi of 30, with a working psi of maybe 20? One pump is MAYBE enough to handle 5 nozzles spraying 7'-8' wide at low speeds, OK for drives, not for larger lots or faster speeds of 6-10 mph in the volume I want to lay down, in my opinion. At close to $500, not a buy to try deal. I think I would need at least 2 of those, maybe 3? but would still only have a low pressure capability.

Most of these places, I can actually drive 1-2 hrs and pickup from so shipping isn't very much either?


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## BigLou80

Kubota,

I am not sure what you want to do is really possible (or necessary but its a free country) with 12 volts or at least a 12volt motor any how. Is it possible for you to rig up something 24 votls ? If you could add a second 24 volt alternator or do some creative wiring to get 24 volts from 2 12 volt batteries with out cooking the trucks charging system you would have the necessary motor HP for what you want to do. No one makes a 2+ HP 12 volt motor because no stock 12 volt charging system could meet the demand. 

how long do you actually need the pump to run for? It might be possible to get a fork lift or golf cart battery pack and not need to chrage it at all during the storm. You would get enough voltage to do what you want but if the batteries die on the road your SOL. 

The other option is to get a pressure vessel for a tank, a small electric air compressor or two will charge the whole tank to 60 psi. Then its up to your plumbing and a simple valve to control the flow. at 60 PSI are you trying to use the pressure to blow the ice off the parking lot or hoping to etch the fluid in to the pavement? I could see a lot of it just boucing back off the pavement and sticking to your truck.

Not to try to talk you out of what you want to do but... spraying at those pressures and driving 10+ mph how much of your liquid will actually hit the pavement and how much will blow away or go anywhere but down ?


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## Evanbrendel

what about a ac converter and a ac motor?


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## forestfireguy

I've done some work with liquids over the years. still do actually. I am no expert, but what the desire for such high pressure? It's not like it will bore through ice under high pressure, as long as you are delivering the volume to sqft/acre ratio you need whats the need for pressure over 20-30PSI?? And being a low pressure high volume set up, I think you'd be fine using 7 nozzles and maintaining the 20-30 PSI you're looking for.


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## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;980758 said:


> I have seen those and they were a thought, http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.851.857/1356 but they have a max psi of 30, with a working psi of maybe 20? One pump is MAYBE enough to handle 5 nozzles spraying 7'-8' wide at low speeds, OK for drives, not for larger lots or faster speeds of 6-10 mph in the volume I want to lay down, in my opinion. At close to $500, not a buy to try deal. I think I would need at least 2 of those, maybe 3? but would still only have a low pressure capability.
> 
> Most of these places, I can actually drive 1-2 hrs and pickup from so shipping isn't very much either?


Pressure aside, whats wrong with using several small pumps? There are a lot of advantages to that approach. If you have 3 pumps and one dies your still spraying just at a lower speed.


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## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;981074 said:


> Kubota,
> 
> I am not sure what you want to do is really possible (or necessary but its a free country) with 12 volts or at least a 12volt motor any how. Is it possible for you to rig up something 24 votls ? If you could add a second 24 volt alternator or do some creative wiring to get 24 volts from 2 12 volt batteries with out cooking the trucks charging system you would have the necessary motor HP for what you want to do. No one makes a 2+ HP 12 volt motor because no stock 12 volt charging system could meet the demand.
> 
> The other option is to get a pressure vessel for a tank, a small electric air compressor will charge the whole tank to 60 psi. Then its up to your plumbing and a simple valve to control the flow.
> 
> Not to try to talk you out of what you want to do but... spraying at those pressures and driving 10+ mph how much of your liquid will actually hit the pavement and how much will blow away or go anywhere but down ?


I can get the liquid on the ground even up to 10 mph, by using stream nozzles or drops. Most likely I would only spray at 6-8 mph. But you don't think a 12 volt 1 hp motor would turn that roller pump? 1800 rpm reduced to 900-1000 rpm to run the roller pump? I was hoping this would be a some what simple 12 volt motor project. I personally think with a 80 amp draw on a 12 volt system for the period of time a sprayer would be actually running would be a serious draw. But there are a lot of electric spreaders now days. I have estimated that the 12 volt 1 hp motor to have 45 ft lb of torque, but I can't seem to figure out how much torque would be required to turn the roller pump.


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## BigLou80

Evanbrendel;981085 said:


> what about a ac converter and a ac motor?


No such thing as a free lunch. watts are watts and even though a higher voltage motor needs less amps the inverter will still need the extra amps at the lower voltage to make the same amounts of watts


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## Kubota 8540

Evanbrendel;981085 said:


> what about a ac converter and a ac motor?


Sounds even more complicated and expensive?



forestfireguy;981087 said:


> I've done some work with liquids over the years. still do actually. I am no expert, but what the desire for such high pressure? It's not like it will bore through ice under high pressure, as long as you are delivering the volume to sqft/acre ratio you need whats the need for pressure over 20-30PSI?? And being a low pressure high volume set up, I think you'd be fine using 7 nozzles and maintaining the 20-30 PSI you're looking for.


The Soltera pump? I seen a video of it in action spraying, I was not impress by its performance. You think it could handle 7 nozzles? I have never used one so I really don't know what it could handle.?



BigLou80;981089 said:


> Pressure aside, whats wrong with using several small pumps? There are a lot of advantages to that approach. If you have 3 pumps and one dies your still spraying just at a lower speed.


I have seen the smaller pumps with higher pressures maybe 50 psi? The redundancy would be nice, 1 dies still can keep spraying and be able to afford to have a spare on the shelf, might be OK.


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## Evanbrendel

well im in the national guard and in our contact truck instead of a generator we have a power inverter big enough to run a plasma cutter but humves are 24 volt so id guess that would be more amps and they use a generator instead of an alternator so maybe that makes a difference


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## BigLou80

Kubota,
The pumps you posted one needed 2.63 HP at 900 RPM for 40GPM at 50 PSI(which should blow the ice off the pavement for you) would need about 16 ft-lbs of torque. A 1 HP motor turing at 1800 RPM will only give you about 3 ft-lbs of torque, not sure where you got your 45ft-lbs estimate.

I am an engineering school drop out so I don't know if gear reduction/torque multiplier is a simple linear fucntion but I think that cutting the RPM's in half will only double the torque, you would need to more then quadrulple the torque. so you would need a motor that spins at 3600 RPM to even come close to what you want to do.


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## BigLou80

Evanbrendel;981122 said:


> well im in the national guard and in our contact truck instead of a generator we have a power inverter big enough to run a plasma cutter but humves are 24 volt so id guess that would be more amps and they use a generator instead of an alternator so maybe that makes a difference


It all does, even at 24 volts that must be one monsterous inverter. This whole thread reminds me of how much I wish they would start producing 24 volt trucks. They did it once when they went from 6 to 12 volts why not do it again with all the electrical accessories people are producing for our vehicles.


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## Evanbrendel

its about the size of 2 30 packs lol


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## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;981136 said:


> It all does, even at 24 volts that must be one monsterous inverter. This whole thread reminds me of how much I wish they would start producing 24 volt trucks. They did it once when they went from 6 to 12 volts why not do it again with all the electrical accessories people are producing for out vehicles.


I'm worried about all this computer, printer, cameras, tv, lights, and misc in my office here, the bearings on my power meter are now water cooled.



BigLou80;981129 said:


> Kubota,
> The pumps you posted one needed 2.63 HP at 900 RPM for 40GPM at 50 PSI(which should blow the ice off the pavement for you) would need about 16 ft-lbs of torque. A 1 HP motor turing at 1800 RPM will only give you about 3 ft-lbs of torque, not sure where you got your 45ft-lbs estimate.
> Blowing the ice off the pavement would be good.
> 
> I am an engineering school drop out so I don't know if gear reduction/torque multiplier is a simple linear fucntion but I think that cutting the RPM's in half will only double the torque, you would need to more then quadrulple the torque. so you would need a motor that spins at 3600 RPM to even come close to what you want to do.


Well I never made it that far but I did a Google search...http://www.ehow.com/how_5021957_calculate-electric-motor-torque.html



Evanbrendel;981122 said:


> well im in the national guard and in our contact truck instead of a generator we have a power inverter big enough to run a plasma cutter but humves are 24 volt so id guess that would be more amps and they use a generator instead of an alternator so maybe that makes a difference


Wish the pickup had 24 volt system.



Evanbrendel;981138 said:


> its about the size of 2 30 packs lol


Nice comparison I know exactly what size that is.


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## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;981129 said:


> Kubota,
> The pumps you posted one needed 2.63 HP at 900 RPM for 40GPM at 50 PSI(which should blow the ice off the pavement for you) would need about 16 ft-lbs of torque. A 1 HP motor turing at 1800 RPM will only give you about 3 ft-lbs of torque, not sure where you got your 45ft-lbs estimate.
> 
> I am an engineering school drop out so I don't know if gear reduction/torque multiplier is a simple linear fucntion but I think that cutting the RPM's in half will only double the torque, you would need to more then quadrulple the torque. so you would need a motor that spins at 3600 RPM to even come close to what you want to do.


How did you come up with the HP and torque figures on the pumps?


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## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;981160 said:


> How did you come up with the HP and torque figures on the pumps?


The chart on thier website gave me the HP of 2.68 and I calculated the torque (hp X 5252)/RPM

Again, why do you need so much pressure ? I can understand needing flow but not pressure

for a 3 hp motor to run that pump you will need about 195 amps. to move that much amperage from under the hood to the back of the truck you will need HUGE wire


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## Westhardt Corp.

Holy moly this thing took off while I was gone! I was wondering, if you intend to spray one lane (8' for a rule of thumb), and will be driving at a sane speed (6-8 mph), then you probably won't need nearly as much as you think. I say this because the cheap little Northern sprayer I use for my "chloride" (liquid cal) on my trailer (we use it in the super cold to keep the loads from sticking--I know, I know "what a waste of calcium" LOL!) is only rated @ 1.8 GPM @ 60 psi, but it puts out a _lot_ of liquid, and if I twist the nozzle to stream it will shoot 20 feet with ease. They're only about $80, and they pull 7-ish amps. They can run chlorides all day without issue, too--mine has sat in the shop for a year with a tankful of cal, and it fired right up with no issues. Now, this probably sounds *insane*, but that's at 60 PSI, and with a typical broadcast nozzle (of which I have one from Northern, it was an experiment in automatic bed spraying utilizing the tarp) it might generate 5 PSI, but the flow increases dramatically, and the single nozzle will spray 15' wide and straight down. Run a couple of these, maybe? It's so stupid simple, it just might work...

pump...http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_9414_9414

nozzle...http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200326933_200326933

K.I.S.S. :laughing:


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## BigLou80

Westhardt Corp.;981189 said:


> Holy moly this thing took off while I was gone! I was wondering, if you intend to spray one lane (8' for a rule of thumb), and will be driving at a sane speed (6-8 mph), then you probably won't need nearly as much as you think. I say this because the cheap little Northern sprayer I use for my "chloride" (liquid cal) on my trailer (we use it in the super cold to keep the loads from sticking--I know, I know "what a waste of calcium" LOL!) is only rated @ 1.8 GPM @ 60 psi, but it puts out a _lot_ of liquid, and if I twist the nozzle to stream it will shoot 20 feet with ease. They're only about $80, and they pull 7-ish amps. They can run chlorides all day without issue, too--mine has sat in the shop for a year with a tankful of cal, and it fired right up with no issues. Now, this probably sounds *insane*, but that's at 60 PSI, and with a typical broadcast nozzle (of which I have one from Northern, it was an experiment in automatic bed spraying utilizing the tarp) it might generate 5 PSI, but the flow increases dramatically, and the single nozzle will spray 15' wide and straight down. Run a couple of these, maybe? It's so stupid simple, it just might work...
> 
> pump...http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_9414_9414
> 
> nozzle...http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200326933_200326933
> 
> K.I.S.S. :laughing:


I think 3 of us so far have come to the same conclusion about using a few smaller pumps 
and not needing so much pressure.

I applaud his effort to blow the ice off the pavement however LOL


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## Westhardt Corp.

:laughing:

I have an very interesting visual right now. And thank you for making me almost spit my drink all over my laptop...

"Sandblasting--not just for prepping road striping anymore!"


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## deicepro

I must chime in.....60 psi is a must when the wind is blowing 20-30 mph
Seems like everytime I go to pre-treat a lot the f..in wind is howling


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## Kubota 8540

Makes it look so simple


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## Kubota 8540

Ready? This is not exactly simple.

12 volts x 80 amps = 960 watts....... 960 watts divided by 746 watts/hp = 1.28 HP.... 1.28 HP divided by 1,800 rpm =.0007149.......0007149 x 63,025 constant = 45.05 ft. lb. out of the 12 volt 1 hp 1,800 rpm motor

Plugged in my numbers to the formula in the link I posted before to arrive at the above Ft. Lb.

So, I would have more than enough torque but not enough HP ?

Would using a gear reduction or pulleys and belt to reduce the motor rpm increase the HP of the motor? or just the torque?


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## Westhardt Corp.

Any mechanical advantage (ie: gear reduction) will increase available torque, but not HP. Given that you need such a low RPM, a gear reduction box might work, and a 1 HP motor should have little trouble making 40 lb ft of torque by itself, let alone gear reduction.


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## Kubota 8540

So do these 12 volt high (80) amp motors work like a starter with a solenoid? Or do they require a special controller?


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## Westhardt Corp.

Solenoid will work, but it will be 100% on or off. Variable control will require a controller, and I don't even know of one that would be up to that type of amperage on 12 volts.


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## Kubota 8540

With the 1 hp 1800 rpm motor having to be reduced approx 50% to approx 900-1000 rpm, that is the roller pumps max rpm. So, ON / OFF would be all thats needed.

Does this look like it has 3 pumps/motors?
http://www.trynexfactory.com/snowex_cat_deicing_sprayers.htm


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## Westhardt Corp.

Yes, and probably four. Being that SnowEx claims this unit has three spray circuits in back plus the spot wand, anyway. I don't know that I'm real jazzed on the "drip/stream" approach, though. I like my sprayers to _spray._


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## Kubota 8540

Just finished reading the specs. They say up to 30 gal/acre? I use the triple stream and really like them.


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## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;981250 said:


> Ready? This is not exactly simple.
> 
> 12 volts x 80 amps = 960 watts....... 960 watts divided by 746 watts/hp = 1.28 HP.... 1.28 HP divided by 1,800 rpm =.0007149.......0007149 x 63,025 constant = 45.05 ft. lb. out of the 12 volt 1 hp 1,800 rpm motor
> 
> Plugged in my numbers to the formula in the link I posted before to arrive at the above Ft. Lb.
> 
> So, I would have more than enough torque but not enough HP ?
> 
> Would using a gear reduction or pulleys and belt to reduce the motor rpm increase the HP of the motor? or just the torque?


It is really simple, the only hard part is getting you the amps you need, that being said I think the above quation is flawed, not sure where the 63,025 constant comes from, I know it say ft-lbs but I wonder if its for in-ozs or NM

I know the formula you have gives you better numbers but I think its bogus. Here is my formula listed again from that same site http://www.ehow.com/how_5108098_calculate-motor-torque.html Here is another one that explains how the 5252 constant is arrived at http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html and finally one more http://www.revsearch.com/dynamometer/torque_vs_horsepower.html

I am really not trying to burst your bubble and maybe there is a real engineer here that will chime in. You said you don't want yo buy and try, so I am trying to prevent you from buying and burning out.

You need more voltage, is it possible that several large industrial 6 volt batties wired together will give you enough run time ? and if so can you handle the extra weight ?

Could you fabricate a brackett to install a 24V alternator out of something else ? That would be ideal to have its own 24V system. Then you could make it work


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## BigLou80

Westhardt Corp.;981319 said:


> Any mechanical advantage (ie: gear reduction) will increase available torque, but not HP. Given that you need such a low RPM, a gear reduction box might work, and a 1 HP motor should have little trouble making 40 lb ft of torque by itself, let alone gear reduction.


It doesn't sorry, you still only get about 3ft-lbs of torque. However it give about 45 inch pounds thats what was wrong with his formula 63,025 is the constant for inch-pounds. 5252.1 * 12 = 63,025. After a cup of coffee I can think again

One final link verifing that you will never get that kinda torque out of a 1hp motor

http://www.engineersedge.com/motors/motors_definitions.htm


----------



## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;981424 said:


> It is really simple, the only hard part is getting you the amps you need, that being said I think the above quation is flawed, not sure where the 63,025 constant comes from, I know it say ft-lbs but I wonder if its for in-ozs or NM
> 
> I know the formula you have gives you better numbers but I think its bogus. Here is my formula listed again from that same site http://www.ehow.com/how_5108098_calculate-motor-torque.html Here is another one that explains how the 5252 constant is arrived at http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html and finally one more http://www.revsearch.com/dynamometer/torque_vs_horsepower.html I only went to the 1 web site, found the formula and because I didn't know, it looked OK? I would rather ask and be proved wrong, than to spend a lot of money just to try something
> 
> I am really not trying to burst your bubble and maybe there is a real engineer here that will chime in. You said you don't want yo buy and try, so I am trying to prevent you from buying and burning out. At $500 for the motor only, is why I asked the question when I started this thread.To buy and try and FRY would not be a good thing.
> 
> You need more voltage, is it possible that several large industrial 6 volt batties wired together will give you enough run time ? and if so can you handle the extra weight ? I really don't think that would make sense to do, when the main reason for an electric motor was to be simplicity.
> 
> Could you fabricate a brackett to install a 24V alternator out of something else ? That would be ideal to have its own 24V system. Then you could make it work


 I don't think I would really want to go that extreme, at least not right now to be able to have an electric sprayer? With the 12 volt motor, lovejoy coupling, and roller pump it takes more 12 v motor than a salt spreader?


----------



## Kubota 8540

HP = Torque (lb-in.) x Speed (RPM)/63,025 
or 
HP = Torque (lb-ft.) x Speed (RPM)/5,252

So I end up with a 12 volt 1 HP 1800 rpm motor that produces 3.754 lb-ft. ( I did read why the lb-ft is switched around )

Good catch Big Lou 80, BEFORE COFFEE also referred to as B.C.

I think beyond a doubt that it can't be done with a 12 volt motor no matter how simple it looks! So.........I think the question still should be answered..............

OK, it can be done with a 24 volt system and motor. What size 24 volt motor would be necessary to turn the roller pump and why in numbers? Proven.?


----------



## BigLou80

Kubota,
sorry if my above post was harsh it was not my intent and I am pleased to answer any questions I can. I know I have asked plenty of questions just to find out I was way off. Its also hard to read where people are comming from on the internet. I am sure you have met the type that asks a question gets an answer they don't like and just keeps asking some one else

A salt spreader is a whole different thing from running a roller pump, The reduce the motors RPM's but a lot more then half to convey the salt and verry little power is needed for the spinner. Many(if not all) spreaders also have two sperate motors. I don't think you could make a spreader do the equivelent of what you want on 12V either but I may be wrong. 

Why not get a really good and quiet gasoline motor? 
Yes the picture you posted earlier looks like 3 pumps, thier tech specs refer to pumps plural. I saw something about 30 gallons per acre not sure how that translates to GPM but one of their specs was 5 GPM at 40PSI for another sprayer. 

Can you find smaller roller pumps ? ones that require less then 1HP of input power ?


----------



## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;981549 said:


> Kubota,
> sorry if my above post was harsh it was not my intent and I am pleased to answer any questions I can. I know I have asked plenty of questions just to find out I was way off. Its also hard to read where people are comming from on the internet. I am sure you have met the type that asks a question gets an answer they don't like and just keeps asking some one else I didn't take them as harsh, and I was looking for real answers rather than opinion. Correct answers can be proven.
> 
> A salt spreader is a whole different thing from running a roller pump, The reduce the motors RPM's but a lot more then half to convey the salt and verry little power is needed for the spinner. Many(if not all) spreaders also have two sperate motors. I don't think you could make a spreader do the equivelent of what you want on 12V either but I may be wrong. I see that now, but running a little roller pump takes more Hp than a salt spreader...WOW ..compare their sizes....LOL
> 
> Why not get a really good and quiet gasoline motor? I think that would make more sense and less Dollars?
> Yes the picture you posted earlier looks like 3 pumps, thier tech specs refer to pumps plural. I saw something about 30 gallons per acre not sure how that translates to GPM but one of their specs was 5 GPM at 40PSI for another sprayer. Salt brine @ 60-80 gpa, cal chloride the same gpa, Iceban 40 gpa, guess that sprayer won't cut it?
> 
> Can you find smaller roller pumps ? ones that require less then 1HP of input power ?


 That I would have to check on

Now that I look for a 24 volt motor at Leeson website they only make a 2 hp 1800 rpm but still draws 70 amps? I think the electric sprayer with a roller pump may just be out of the question?


----------



## forestfireguy

My expierience is using a gas pump, honda powered Banjo pump, We ran 6 nozzles on a home made spray bar, worked very well, was a volume pump. not a lot of pressure. Though I never tested it or sought ratings. Currently we are running a pressure pump, and 5 nozzels and flowing .5 GPM per nozzle and very low pressure since the pump won't move the volume it needs to maintain pressure for 5 nozzles- This is my assumption, but for pre-treating it works just fine.


----------



## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;981584 said:


> That I would have to check on
> 
> Now that I look for a 24 volt motor at Leeson website they only make a 2 hp 1800 rpm but still draws 70 amps? I think the electric sprayer with a roller pump may just be out of the question?


Right, twice the voltage means half the current for the same number of watts. watts = amps * volts 24 votls * 70 amps = 1680 watts 12 volts * 140 Amps = 1680 watts.

Less current (amps) means smaller wires and less heat which would be a huge advantage to all of us plowers. What you want to do would be possible with a 24 volt truck. A plow motor that draws 200 amps against the pressure relief would only need 100 amps and so on. Make for faster plow pumps too. No more browning out of the truck. I hope GM Ford and Dodge are reading this.


----------



## Grassman09

Kubota, 

Is your truck diesel? Remember what i was saying about setting up central hydraulics or my truck. That would be a quiet way but too costly maybe? The big city trucks run there stuff that way don't they?


----------



## Kubota 8540

" I hope GM Ford and Dodge are reading this. " I don't think this thread is that high up the food chain. :laughing: 

I can see it now ......"Work trucks for America" ...trade-in your outdated beast for the work truck of tomorrow and get 2.9 % for the first 15 minutes ..... oops reality slipped in.........


----------



## broncscott

I work on manlifts that are used in construction. These lifts are powered by 4 6volt deep cycle batteries wired for 24 volts. They power a 1.5 hp motor running a hydraulic pump. they last all day on a charge. Just a thought.


----------



## Kubota 8540

broncscott;981678 said:


> I work on manlifts that are used in construction. These lifts are powered by 4 6volt deep cycle batteries wired for 24 volts. They power a 1.5 hp motor running a hydraulic pump. they last all day on a charge. Just a thought.


A good thought too. Taking this thread off course a little. An older truck re-wired for 24 Volt? Would it be possible? Or a 12 volt charging system with a 24 volt accessory circuit with extra batteries wired for 24 volt ? Or a 24 volt charging system with a step down transformer to 12 volt to run the basic truck? This is definitely not my area of specialty. But with all the electrical needs today of high amp plow pumps, spreaders, hydraulic units for rear blades or electric over hydraulic dumps, laptops, GPS, stereos and amps? Certainly makes me wonder?

If I had a 24 volt system on the truck this electric sprayer would be up and spraying already. 

May need a whole new thread?


----------



## BigLou80

Grassman09;981659 said:


> Kubota,
> 
> Is your truck diesel? Remember what i was saying about setting up central hydraulics or my truck. That would be a quiet way but too costly maybe? The big city trucks run there stuff that way don't they?


Central Hydros are not the answer 24 or 36 even 48 Volt trucks are where we should be looking. Hydros have to many limitations and are to inefficient to be practical, their operation is to dependant on engine speed.

a 48 volt plow motor would be the size of a snowblower electric starter and capable of running at double the pressure of todays pumps. plowmovement would be amazingly fast


----------



## BigLou80

broncscott;981678 said:


> I work on manlifts that are used in construction. These lifts are powered by 4 6volt deep cycle batteries wired for 24 volts. They power a 1.5 hp motor running a hydraulic pump. they last all day on a charge. Just a thought.


We are discussing something along these lines in a PM. Maybe we should bring it out here


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;981659 said:


> Kubota,
> 
> Is your truck diesel? Remember what i was saying about setting up central hydraulics or my truck. That would be a quiet way but too costly maybe? The big city trucks run there stuff that way don't they?


None of my trucks are diesel, just the 'bota. Silverado is gas, but I don't classify it as a work truck.....just a Country Cadillac. The old Chev 1 ton 4x4 is a work truck, but its a gasser too. Maybe I should get an electric hybrid w/ 9' plow? :laughing: I think the only way to run this HD electric sprayer would be a BIG electric system with lots of batteries? But then if you compare it to a 2" pump with a gas engine the cost and weight will come out as GAS engine. But unfortunately I still like the big electric sprayer idea.


----------



## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;981759 said:


> We are discussing something along these lines in a PM. Maybe we should bring it out here


How about a 24 volt alternator completely separate from the 12 volt system, just for the big toys?
http://www.balmar.net/index.htm
http://www.balmar.net/PDF/24voltmanual.pdf

Ideas?

Downfalls?


----------



## Grassman09

BigLou80;981757 said:


> Central Hydros are not the answer 24 or 36 even 48 Volt trucks are where we should be looking. Hydros have to many limitations and are to inefficient to be practical, their operation is to dependant on engine speed.


Why are the big trucks all hydro and not electric? Too much currant draw in electric I find. 
If I move my blade and have the salter running at the same time its not enough to power both.

The waste oil from the auger or spinner drives the pump to pre treat at the spinner. Okay its not operating a 8' spray bar and yea i guess you don't need a huge pump for a 3/4" or 1/2" line to deliver the liquid to the spinner.

How on earth are you going to get room to power a 48volt motor? That's inefficient with all the wires and weight in batteries you wont have any capacity in the truck for a tank never mind room.


----------



## hitachiman 200

Hi Guys , just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in the mix here, If you were to use a standard transmission truck and an engine driven hydraulic pump coupled to your liquids pump, by using a flow restricter on the hydro line you could dial in the correct liquids pressure for the speed of the vehicle. So the faster the truck goes the more pressure developed. This way you could fine tune the system without a bunch of expensive electronics. No matter which way you do it you can't get more power from a 12v alternator system. Gear reduction will increase torque while sacrificing speed this will increase pressure but will lower total volume As for adding more batteries and alternators or upgrading to 24 v I think going hydraulic would be more efficient and reliable. But then I 'm a firm believer in the K.I.S.S principal. Very interesting thread and I am looking forward to a successful outcome as I would like to build a pretreat rig myself for next season. Cheers and good luck


----------



## BigLou80

Grassman09;981808 said:


> Why are the big trucks all hydro and not electric? Too much currant draw in electric I find.
> If I move my blade and have the salter running at the same time its not enough to power both.


correct not enough current at 12 volts with a 140 amp alternator. Make it a 24 volt 140 amp alternator and you now have twice the current available and all the devices only draw half as much as the did at 12 volts. Its an amazing leap forward.

Large diesel trucks have a lot more gears to allow for a more constant engine speed and less range or RPM's (compared to gas) They also have a lot more torqe at idle to power a pump which would stall out a gas pick up motor. There is also more room for a pump and tank on most larger trucks

Lastly but not least reason is we are very very slow to inovate and change in this country when it comes to any of our vehicles. The federal gov't has to put a gun to the manufactures head before they do something. Alternators are a newer invention, where as hydro's have been around for ever. There is a lot of legacy parts and pre engineered solutions for hydro's that don't cost the manufactures crap to implement, imagine if they had to redesign thier whole product line . so untill big rigs run out of room for the pump and tank or the parasit fuel usage from the pump starts to get to expensive you will still see hydros.



Grassman09;981808 said:


> The waste oil from the auger or spinner drives the pump to pre treat at the spinner. Okay its not operating a 8' spray bar and yea i guess you don't need a huge pump for a 3/4" or 1/2" line to deliver the liquid to the spinner.


Waste oil ? do you mean the outflow from the auger motor ? If so you still need enerfy input to dirve the other pump, no such thing as a free lunch



Grassman09;981808
How on earth are you going to get room to power a 48volt motor? That's inefficient with all the wires and weight in batteries you wont have any capacity in the truck for a tank never mind room.[/QUOTE said:


> A 48 volt motor will be smaller then a 12 volt motor and all you need room for is 4 12 volt cells. At 48 volts you don't need big wires compared to 12 volts. voltage is analogous to pressure in a hdraulic system. The higher the pressure the less GPM you need
> 
> All I am saying is the future for on road vehicles lies in electric accessories and higher voltages. Htydraulics are technology from the begining of the last century Kinda like solid fron axle's. We need to move forward electricity is a more universal and efficient means of power transmission. Why do you think locomotives don't have transmissions or hydro pumps and motors to drive thier wheels ? Same goes for our homes, there is a good reason I don't have hydraulic hoses from a central pump (or utility) to power my ceiling fan or the compressor in my fridge.


----------



## Kubota 8540

48 volts on my truck....Think of the possibilities...........I could weld with jumper cables.........sub out to charge forklifts............light a small village..........:laughing::laughing:

On a more serious note there are a lot of advantages to more volts whether on the truck or at home. 110 volt welder is ok, but a 220v welder gets it done, or the difference of a 110 v air conditioner or a 220 v central unit.

But what are the disadvantages of 48 volts on the truck? other than 270 pounds of battery and having to get 4 new batteries?


----------



## Evanbrendel

what about a 120v or 220 v engine belt driven generator and ac motor?


----------



## Grassman09

BigLou80;981849 said:


> correct not enough current at 12 volts with a 140 amp alternator. Make it a 24 volt 140 amp alternator and you now have twice the current available and all the devices only draw half as much as the did at 12 volts. Its an amazing leap forward.
> 
> Large diesel trucks have a lot more gears to allow for a more constant engine speed and less range or RPM's (compared to gas) They also have a lot more torqe at idle to power a pump which would stall out a gas pick up motor. There is also more room for a pump and tank on most larger trucks
> 
> That is why I asked if his truck was diesel like mine
> 
> Lastly but not least reason is we are very very slow to inovate and change in this country when it comes to any of our vehicles. The federal gov't has to put a gun to the manufactures head before they do something. Alternators are a newer invention, where as hydro's have been around for ever. There is a lot of legacy parts and pre engineered solutions for hydro's that don't cost the manufactures crap to implement, imagine if they had to redesign thier whole product line . so untill big rigs run out of room for the pump and tank or the parasit fuel usage from the pump starts to get to expensive you will still see hydros.
> 
> Waste oil ? do you mean the outflow from the auger motor ? If so you still need enerfy input to dirve the other pump, no such thing as a free lunch
> In a way it is waste as all its doing is going back to the tank. Why not use all the energy the 1st pump is producing. Sometimes you get a free lunch. I have a meeting to got o on the 16th and ill be getting a free lunch LOL
> 
> A 48 volt motor will be smaller then a 12 volt motor and all you need room for is 4 12 volt cells. At 48 volts you don't need big wires compared to 12 volts. voltage is analogous to pressure in a hdraulic system. The higher the pressure the less GPM you need
> 
> Ok so now now you have a 260 gal tank on the truck an electric motor and 4 12volt batteries. That would prob be okay if it was a 1 ton pick up but a 3/4ton or 3/4 heavy duty I don't think that's a good idea.
> 
> All I am saying is the future for on road vehicles lies in electric accessories and higher voltages. Htydraulics are technology from the begining of the last century Kinda like solid fron axle's. We need to move forward electricity is a more universal and efficient means of power transmission. Why do you think locomotives don't have transmissions or hydro pumps and motors to drive thier wheels ? Same goes for our homes, there is a good reason I don't have hydraulic hoses from a central pump (or utility) to power my ceiling fan or the compressor in my fridge.


Locomotives use a diesel engine to produce electricity yes i know. I didnt know they had a hyrdo drive for trians? Why do they not use electric brakes on a car like they do on trailers? It costs more to run an electric furnace then a gas furnace?

As for solid front axles being old school. Are you saying you would rather have a independent front suspension then a solid front axle? Why? I personally like my big 8611LP snowplow on my Ram vs the smaller 810 one on my GM truck with the non solid front axle


----------



## Grassman09

Kubota 8540;982050 said:


> 48 volts on my truck....Think of the possibilities...........I could weld with jumper cables.........sub out to charge forklifts............light a small village..........:laughing::laughing:
> 
> On a more serious note there are a lot of advantages to more volts whether on the truck or at home. 110 volt welder is ok, but a 220v welder gets it done, or the difference of a 110 v air conditioner or a 220 v central unit.
> 
> But what are the disadvantages of 48 volts on the truck? other than 270 pounds of battery and having to get 4 new batteries?


A GM gas truck with independent front suspension is okay but a Ram with a cummins and a bigger plow and solid front axle gets it done. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;982078 said:


> A GM gas truck with independent front suspension is okay but a Ram with a cummins and a bigger plow and solid front axle gets it done. :laughing::laughing:


A Gm with independent front suspension is ok when your using it for a Country Cadillac grocery gitter but at no other time would I want it. The 2000 Silverado has the plow package and the 5200# front axle and will never compare to my 1987 5200# straight axle w/leaf springs for work purposes. But the point being made is that it is old school or old technology and the wave of the future is and will be electric. Big trucks that once had drive shafts and differentials now have electric motors turning the wheels. V box spreaders gas or hydro driven, has anybody seen these being converted or manufactured as an electric driven unit? That's where I got this idea of trying to put a 12 volt motor on a sprayer? Sure would make it simple........if I had enough electric already on the truck. A couple wires, an electric motor, a lovejoy coupling, a pump,a tank, spray bar, some hose and hose clamps.......let's spray. 
How many electrical gadgets and lights or alarms can we put on a trucks electrical system before we need to upgrade? Just by jumping up to 24 volts you can cut your draw in 1/2. So your plow and spreader don't both work very well at the same time? They would if you had 24 volt system.

Back to the roller pump for a minute, one step smaller pump and a 2 hp 24 volt motor and I'd be able to equal the pto driven sprayer on the Kubota, laying down up to 100 gallons per acre at 6-8 mph.


----------



## Grassman09

I really do not like my electric salter. It's better then the one I had before but I wish I had hydro or even Hydro electric if that's faster then then plain old electric. I know sounds silly Electric and Hydro.


----------



## BigLou80

Grassman09;982064 said:


> Locomotives use a diesel engine to produce electricity yes i know. I didnt know they had a hyrdo drive for trians? Why do they not use electric brakes on a car like they do on trailers? It costs more to run an electric furnace then a gas furnace?


They don't have hydraulic pumps and motors driving the train, that was my whole point sorry if I didn't make that clear. 
They don't use electric brakes on cars because I don't know, I am going to guess that linear motion is still some thing that fluid under pressure does well, Kinda like hydraulics will continue to run pistons on heavy equipment for the forseeable future. Its also the legacy thing again we hold on to old tech untill we absolutly can't any more. And electric brakes on the trailer prove my point its far easier to use a solid state controller and transport electricity to the trailer then it would be to ship fluid all the way back there and adjust the flow and pressure with a mechanical device

As for the electric furnace thats a whole different story that If you like I will post a reply but its got nothing to do with this thread. but electric heat is 100% efficient



Grassman09;982064 said:


> As for solid front axles being old school. Are you saying you would rather have a independent front suspension then a solid front axle? Why? I personally like my big 8611LP snowplow on my Ram vs the smaller 810 one on my GM truck with the non solid front axle


IFS vs SFA has nothing to do with spring rate, have no idea why GM does not put stiffer spring in thier IFS. I love my IFS truck. The front end has been almost flawless and the wear parts are easy to change. It has no issues holding up my V plow. But it was more a comment about technology and how it is or is not applied in the vehicle world. The Romans perfected solid axle technology on thier chariots over a thousand years ago. The universal joint was first used over 400 years ago (by the same guy who gave us coil springs) Its OLD OLD and well proven (both in capability and limitaions) technology


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;982158 said:


> I really do not like my electric salter. It's better then the one I had before but I wish I had hydro or even Hydro electric if that's faster then then plain old electric. I know sounds silly Electric and Hydro.


I think electric will be the most efficient, but its not there yet. 
I don't think 12 volt is the answer for electric accessories such as salters. Lot of people seem to like them. I guess I'm still old school, give me a straight axle truck and a gas powered chain driven steel V box salter. I think the alternator on my 1 ton is cranked up to 185 amps with a dual battery set up, plus a separate battery just for the v box. I've never had problems with it other than laying the cash out for all new batteries. Maybe if you bumped up the alternator and added a extra battery?

See more electric supply...... I think I'm sold, on thats the answer. Thats what I have always done... put in a bigger battery....a bigger,better alternator ..... add another battery.....how about 24 volt system next?


----------



## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;982050 said:


> 48 volts on my truck....Think of the possibilities...........I could weld with jumper cables.........sub out to charge forklifts............light a small village..........:laughing::laughing:
> 
> On a more serious note there are a lot of advantages to more volts whether on the truck or at home. 110 volt welder is ok, but a 220v welder gets it done, or the difference of a 110 v air conditioner or a 220 v central unit.


see now your thinking, there is a reason factories run 480 volt motors (we won't get in to AC and phasing here)


Kubota 8540;982050 said:


> But what are the disadvantages of 48 volts on the truck? other than 270 pounds of battery and having to get 4 new batteries?


Who said you need 4 batteries ? batteries are just stacks of 2 volt cells( the difference in charge between the positive and negative plates) wired in paralell and in series to get the desired amps/voltage. The exception to this is Lithium Ion batteries that are only 1.8 volts per cell. you can get a lead acid battery in any voltage you want as long as its divisable by 2.
The don't know of any disadvantages, besides all the BS that goes along with early adoption. 48 Volts may be enough to overcome the resistance of the human body. I don't know as I would grab both terminals of a 48 volt battery with wet hands, but that might still be to low a voltage


----------



## Kubota 8540

I have had my knees in moist dirt and found 24 volt with my hands to be enough......:laughing: (first hand experienced)

I think it would be easy to find the short, just look for the smoke or flames :laughing:

I really do like the idea of a higher voltage system on a vehicle. Most of the military vehicles used to have a 24 volt system, don't know if the new stuff does.


----------



## Grassman09

BigLou80;982178 said:


> They don't have hydraulic pumps and motors driving the train, that was my whole point sorry if I didn't make that clear.
> They don't use electric brakes on cars because I don't know, I am going to guess that linear motion is still some thing that fluid under pressure does well, Kinda like hydraulics will continue to run pistons on heavy equipment for the forseeable future. Its also the legacy thing again we hold on to old tech untill we absolutly can't any more. And electric brakes on the trailer prove my point its far easier to use a solid state controller and transport electricity to the trailer then it would be to ship fluid all the way back there and adjust the flow and pressure with a mechanical device
> 
> As for the electric furnace thats a whole different story that If you like I will post a reply but its got nothing to do with this thread. but electric heat is 100% efficient
> 
> IFS vs SFA has nothing to do with spring rate, have no idea why GM does not put stiffer spring in thier IFS. I love my IFS truck. The front end has been almost flawless and the wear parts are easy to change. It has no issues holding up my V plow. But it was more a comment about technology and how it is or is not applied in the vehicle world. The Romans perfected solid axle technology on thier chariots over a thousand years ago. The universal joint was first used over 400 years ago (by the same guy who gave us coil springs) Its OLD OLD and well proven (both in capability and limitaions) technology


Yeah I hear ya. Why mess with a good thing right?



Kubota 8540;982195 said:


> I think electric will be the most efficient, but its not there yet.
> I don't think 12 volt is the answer for electric accessories such as salters. Lot of people seem to like them. I guess I'm still old school, give me a straight axle truck and a gas powered chain driven steel V box salter. I think the alternator on my 1 ton is cranked up to 185 amps with a dual battery set up, plus a separate battery just for the v box. I've never had problems with it other than laying the cash out for all new batteries. Maybe if you bumped up the alternator and added a extra battery?
> 
> See more electric supply...... I think I'm sold, on thats the answer. Thats what I have always done... put in a bigger battery....a bigger,better alternator ..... add another battery.....how about 24 volt system next?


I don't have to operate the salter and plow at the same time. But yea i guess a deep cycle bat might help if I did.

On my GM gasser i beleive i got 3 bats. 1 stock and two grp 32's i think they are called. The ones big trucks use.

I guess maybe for now 2 or 3 smaller pumps will work work for all electric? Split the boom up in sections. Left Center Right? Individual switches and one master that turns them all on. Why not hook up a Dynamo to a deep cycle battery or maybe a few wind mills on the roof of the truck LOL? Free energy oh and lets not forget solar cells.

There might not be such a thing as free lunch but there is free energy. Kinda.


----------



## Kubota 8540

I think the Soltera pumps may be the best electric pumps to try for now. 2 of those at $425 ea, using one for center then the 2nd for a wider spray. But that would be back to buy and try? I know I could handle the amp draw for 2 of those. Just not sure about the pressure and flow? But at $850+shipping.....I'm thinking gas w/electric start in the cab and being able to spray 60' if and when I want to.  That sprayer I posted pics of uses at least 3 pumps for their sprayer and it says up to 30 gal/acre? Sounds like I would need a free lunch, I'd be there all day.

I think fossil fuel driven, with solar panel visor and wind turbines on the roof should do it. :laughing::laughing:


----------



## Kubota 8540

BigLou80 if I had a couple extra batteries in the back setup to run 24 volt, and my sprayer motor was a 24 volt 70a how long would the batteries last before needing a charge? like we had talked a little bit about with a disconnect switch?


----------



## hitachiman 200

Grassman09;982219 said:


> Yeah I hear ya. Why mess with a good thing right?
> 
> I don't have to operate the salter and plow at the same time. But yea i guess a deep cycle bat might help if I did.
> 
> On my GM gasser i beleive i got 3 bats. 1 stock and two grp 32's i think they are called. The ones big trucks use.
> 
> I guess maybe for now 2 or 3 smaller pumps will work work for all electric? Split the boom up in sections. Left Center Right? Individual switches and one master that turns them all on. Why not hook up a Dynamo to a deep cycle battery or maybe a few wind mills on the roof of the truck LOL? Free energy oh and lets not forget solar cells.
> 
> There might not be such a thing as free lunch but there is free energy. Kinda.


free power from windmills .... I think there's a dutchman on here that could help you with that:laughing:


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## Kubota 8540

$301 to my door...... this will turn my roller pump........ cheaper than a 12 volt motor
#EB48 - 48 Volt model - 4 hp /1800 RPM @ 48 Volts 
3000 Watts / 62 Amps @ peak load - (48 voltage model has fine wire copper windings)
91% efficiency , 27 year brush life at 4 hr per day 
Overall dimensions are 6.4" in diameter by 14.2"in length


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## Grassman09

Kubota 8540;982239 said:


> That sprayer I posted pics of uses at least 3 pumps for their sprayer and it says up to 30 gal/acre? Sounds like I would need a free lunch, I'd be there all day.
> 
> I think fossil fuel driven, with solar panel visor and wind turbines on the roof should do it. :laughing::laughing:


Now you are thinking. Maybe lunch and dinner. I like that Honda not that bad of a price either. Wonder how silent it would be thou.



hitachiman 200;982270 said:


> free power from windmills .... I think there's a dutchman on here that could help you with that:laughing:


No he got served his walking papers last I heard.


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## broncscott

I have bought used scissor lifts lately for $150.00. You could use the electric motor,controls and charger and scrap the rest.


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## Kubota 8540

They are a little quieter than the Briggs. My pump/Briggs surprised me today, 27F started and purred on the first pull. 2,925 gallons to go. Its 10 years old. You just caught me over on that site drooling on that Honda / pump. Reading it again like the price is going to get better.


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## Kubota 8540

broncscott;982358 said:


> I have bought used scissor lifts lately for $150.00. You could use the electric motor,controls and charger and scrap the rest.


How big are those motors, seems like older motors or some are physically bigger than others?


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## hitachiman 200

Ok, so no one wants to play with hydraulics today. How about a 48V permanent magnet alternator putting out 325 amps for a meer $440.00 I was looking into building a water wheel for my mates cabin up at Loon lake when I found these units
I was planning on using three to charge a bank of ten twelve volt batteries but had trouble finding a reliable controller.
http://www.survivalunlimited.com/windpower/pmas.htm


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## Kubota 8540

hitachiman 200;982431 said:


> Ok, so no one wants to play with hydraulics today. How about a 48V permanent magnet alternator putting out 325 amps for a meer $440.00 I was looking into building a water wheel for my mates cabin up at Loon lake when I found these units
> I was planning on using three to charge a bank of ten twelve volt batteries but had trouble finding a reliable controller.
> http://www.survivalunlimited.com/windpower/pmas.htm


I play with everything, the question is how much I know about anything?:laughing:
Water wheel like at a old mill? Water over a wooden wheel?


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## hitachiman 200

yes, a wooden water wheel. they have a spring up behind the cabin that flows about 3/4 of a 4" pipe. Haven't done the math yet but I think that it should provide enough to run a water wheel.


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## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;982246 said:


> BigLou80 if I had a couple extra batteries in the back setup to run 24 volt, and my sprayer motor was a 24 volt 70a how long would the batteries last before needing a charge? like we had talked a little bit about with a disconnect switch?


Depends on the batteries. I will do some looking and some math later on. I actually have to get to work today


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## BigLou80

broncscott;982358 said:


> I have bought used scissor lifts lately for $150.00. You could use the electric motor,controls and charger and scrap the rest.


for $150 it would be tough to do wrong, even if it doesn't work you not out that much money. I have spent that in a night at the strip club, and I don't even get scrap money back there


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## BigLou80

hitachiman 200;982478 said:


> yes, a wooden water wheel. they have a spring up behind the cabin that flows about 3/4 of a 4" pipe. Haven't done the math yet but I think that it should provide enough to run a water wheel.


 A fwe companies make actually water wheels that you plumb right in to the pipe. and lots of companies make charge controllers


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## deicepro

You guy are making my head spin with 24, 36, 48 volts
Electric would be great but its just not there yet
Buy a honda pump, I let mine idle and I still get 100gpm @ 60psi at idle and if I crank it up its 280gpm @ 75psi 
I cant hear the honda idle over the diesel


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## Kubota 8540

hitachiman 200;982478 said:


> yes, a wooden water wheel. they have a spring up behind the cabin that flows about 3/4 of a 4" pipe. Haven't done the math yet but I think that it should provide enough to run a water wheel.


That's a pretty good size flow, I'd definitely be trying to harness that. Like I said earlier electric is not my specialty but I'd be messing with it to get some power out of that. One of the links I posted earlier for the 24v alternator had controllers that would send and control the charge to different banks or locations. I didn't pay much attention if they had 48 volt. Biggest spring I remember seeing around here was about the size of your little finger but even that flowing 24/7 is a lot of water. Not enough to harness but still a lot of water.


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## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;982246 said:


> BigLou80 if I had a couple extra batteries in the back setup to run 24 volt, and my sprayer motor was a 24 volt 70a how long would the batteries last before needing a charge? like we had talked a little bit about with a disconnect switch?


Ok well that depends on how much you want to spend on batteries and how much space and weight you can devote to them, 
2 blue top optimas will only support a 70 amp load for about an hour.
2 8d rolls (weigh in at 183 lbs each) will support that load for closer to 4 hours

Depending on how many amps your alternator can come up with, you can expect the optimas to take about an hour or two to charge. I don't have technical data for the big rolls (they make smaller ones) but I would guess your truck won't be able to charge them unless you can drive around for 6-8 hours and you will need to plug them in at home.

The addition of a 24 volt alternator would make a big difference. It can't be any harder then adding a hydraulic pump that many here have talked about. Depending on your vehicle there may even be an off the shelf option for marine applications.


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## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;983395 said:


> Ok well that depends on how much you want to spend on batteries and how much space and weight you can devote to them,
> 2 blue top optimas will only support a 70 amp load for about an hour.I think these would work. The sprayer only runs maybe 10 minutes on ten minutes Off?
> 2 8d rolls (weigh in at 183 lbs each) will support that load for closer to 4 hours These would be my first choice based on the 4 hr factor then charge over night
> 
> Depending on how many amps your alternator can come up with, you can expect the optimas to take about an hour or two to charge. I don't have technical data for the big rolls (they make smaller ones) but I would guess your truck won't be able to charge them unless you can drive around for 6-8 hours and you will need to plug them in at home. My 12 v puts out 185 amps
> 
> The addition of a 24 volt alternator would make a big difference. It can't be any harder then adding a hydraulic pump that many here have talked about. Depending on your vehicle there may even be an off the shelf option for marine applications.


 Adding a 24v alternator would be ideal. Would it add a lot of drag to the engine?


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## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;983419 said:


> Adding a 24v alternator would be ideal. Would it add a lot of drag to the engine?


Nope, its one of the great things about alternators, if its not generating current its not working the engine, drag is directly related to current output. Its another advantage over a hydraulic pump which still has to circulate the fluid even when not in use

If you only need it for 10 minutes at a shot you should be ok with the optimas especially if you can get some charge time between lots. The other batteries are BIG 183lbs each thats 366lbs of batteries for 24 volts. What kind of truck are you putting this system in ?


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## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;983439 said:


> Nope, its one of the great things about alternators, if its not generating current its not working the engine, drag is directly related to current output. Its another advantage over a hydraulic pump which still has to circulate the fluid even when not in use
> 
> If you only need it for 10 minutes at a shot you should be ok with the optimas especially if you can get some charge time between lots. The other batteries are BIG 183lbs each thats 366lbs of batteries for 24 volts. What kind of truck are you putting this system in ?


1982 Datsun 2 wd long bed?








3/4 ton gas Silverado.....150 gal tank = 1,600 lbs + 366 = 1,966 lbs


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## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;983458 said:


> 1982 Datsun 2 wd long bed?
> View attachment 72050
> 
> 
> 3/4 ton gas Silverado.....150 gal tank = 1,600 lbs + 366 = 1,966 lbs


you do realize that with a 20 GPM pump you won't be able to run for 10 minutes with out emptying the tank.
My 2500 HD has had a lot more then 1 ton in the back, probably close to double that


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## hitachiman 200

hey, is that datsun a deisel?


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## BigLou80

Kubota,
with a 150 gallon tank why in the world do you think you need 20 GPM ? You said you want to run it for 10 minutes the another 10 minutes between sites so lets assume only two sites with 150 gallons between them and 20 minutes of spraying. it seems to me that 7.5 GPM would be more then enough for you. Will you be filling up between all the sites ?

I understand building in some extra capacity but at a certain point commuting to work in a 650HP tri axle because you might need to bring 50K lbs home is over kill

here is premade solution, you can use two of these if you want and empty the tank in one 10 minute run

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=589


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## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;983491 said:


> you do realize that with a 20 GPM pump you won't be able to run for 10 minutes with out emptying the tank.
> My 2500 HD has had a lot more then 1 ton in the back, probably close to double that


My Silverado is not a HD

Most of my lots are 2 miles or less from home base to reload. 150 gallon tank would be minimum size. With that I can spray min 1.5 acres. But a very safe comfortable 1 ton load. The most weight I have had on it is 2500 lbs.Would make my Silverado ride like a Cadillac. Something quiet to anti-ice with or to do lot checks with.

If I were to build this sprayer for my 1 Ton dually it could be 500 gallon and do the whole route with out coming back to home base. Battery weight would be no problem either.


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## hitachiman 200

Kubota 8540;983556 said:


> My Silverado is not a HD
> 
> Most of my lots are 2 miles or less from home base to reload. 150 gallon tank would be minimum size. With that I can spray min 1.5 acres. But a very safe comfortable 1 ton load. The most weight I have had on it is 2500 lbs.Would make my Silverado ride like a Cadillac. Something quiet to anti-ice with or to do lot checks with.
> 
> If I were to build this sprayer for my 1 Ton dually it could be 500 gallon and do the whole route with out coming back to home base. Battery weight would be no problem either.


I can see the rig now.

2x10' folding booms on each side20'+20'=40'

+8'on back of truck=48'

+super squirt nozzles on tips11'x2

= 70' of lot in 1 pass.

At 40mph x $$$$$$$$$$$$payuppayuppayup

Breaking news.... the Ontario Dept of Highways has just awarded Kubota 8540 with the 401 deicing contract for 2010-11


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## Kubota 8540

hitachiman 200;983777 said:


> I can see the rig now.
> 
> 2x10' folding booms on each side20'+20'=40'
> 
> +8'on back of truck=48'
> 
> +super squirt nozzles on tips11'x2
> 
> = 70' of lot in 1 pass.
> 
> At 40mph x $$$$$$$$$$$$payuppayuppayup
> 
> Breaking news.... the Ontario Dept of Highways has just awarded Kubota 8540 with the 401 deicing contract for 2010-11


If I was to get THAT contract I'd need a bigger tank.


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## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;983529 said:


> Kubota,
> with a 150 gallon tank why in the world do you think you need 20 GPM ? You said you want to run it for 10 minutes the another 10 minutes between sites so lets assume only two sites with 150 gallons between them and 20 minutes of spraying. it seems to me that 7.5 GPM would be more then enough for you. Will you be filling up between all the sites ?
> 
> I understand building in some extra capacity but at a certain point commuting to work in a 650HP tri axle because you might need to bring 50K lbs home is over kill
> 
> here is premade solution, you can use two of these if you want and empty the tank in one 10 minute run
> 
> http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=589


Taking the middle road average approach. 10 spray tips at average 2.0 gal/min = 20 gallons at 7 mph to get to the high side of my GPA ? No recirculation, no agitation, 20 gal / min and the pump is at its max. ( 25' wide spray width )

With two 7.5 gal / min pumps, it gives me 15 gal / min and 12' less feet in spray width? Maybe this is where the free lunch would come in to play? I'd be there until noon? I have not actually timed how long it takes to spray an acre but its unlikely the pump would run and spray the entire time. Backing up, turning around, or maneuvering you don't actually spray at those times.
I have set up a FEW sprayers and the first thing I always see is they always want to put a 500 gallon tank on a 3/4 ton truck. At approx 11 pounds per gallon, just not a great idea. You need to account for the slosh or surge also ( which most people are not willing to spend the $400 to eliminate ) unless you don't mind tearing up your equipment. But if your just going to pay money out for repairs ,why bother earning it to start with? Liquid in a tank is very different than salt in a hopper, two very different animals.


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## hitachiman 200

I here you, One of the local municipalities is Using a HD 1ton with a 500 gallon tank and it sloshes around pretty good. The highways dept is also using some form of brine but have not seen what they are using to apply it. As far as I know they are the only ones using it here.


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## Kubota 8540

hitachiman 200;984046 said:


> I here you, One of the local municipalities is Using a HD 1ton with a 500 gallon tank and it sloshes around pretty good. The highways dept is also using some form of brine but have not seen what they are using to apply it. As far as I know they are the only ones using it here.


Went out and sprayed my 375 gallons this morning to burn off 1/2" of snow, could have used a lot less but was in a hurry for a quick burn off.. It has its uses and times, not every event. I sprayed 4 acres total, and not all in one place, that would be way to easy. Burned it off for $45. or 1,000 lbs of rock salt to make the brine. Kind of acts like a liquid eraser? I sprayed the gas station lot first, was going to take some before / after shots. But forgot the camera in the shop, so I sprayed, drove 3/4 mile grabbed the camera, drove 3/4 mile back, too late all melted? Bare pavement photo? Naaaaaa......

This sprayer uses the same roller pump I would use with the 24 volt motor and battery set up. But I get impatient and want to spray larger volumes and at faster speeds , the more often I spray. Both of those mean larger pump. 150 gallon tank would be pushing the low end limit. 200 gallon on the Kubota, and feel its just about right for that pump. I can plow and spray without any worries of the liquid moving around to much.


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## BigLou80

Kubota 8540;983849 said:


> Taking the middle road average approach. 10 spray tips at average 2.0 gal/min = 20 gallons at 7 mph to get to the high side of my GPA ? No recirculation, no agitation, 20 gal / min and the pump is at its max. ( 25' wide spray width )


yeah if you have 10 tips at 2 gallons per minute each, then you would need a 20GPM pump. I don't know crap about spraying de icer, but only ten nozzles in 25 feet would result in a fan over 3 feet across. If I was setting it up I would go with more nozzles with less of a spray width



Kubota 8540;983849 said:


> With two 7.5 gal / min pumps, it gives me 15 gal / min and 12' less feet in spray width? Maybe this is where the free lunch would come in to play? I'd be there until noon? I have not actually timed how long it takes to spray an acre but its unlikely the pump would run and spray the entire time. Backing up, turning around, or maneuvering you don't actually spray at those times.


I was under the impression you only had a 150 gallon tank, at wich point a 20 GPM pump would be excessive by most peoples measure. If you only had 75% of the flow you would only have 75% of the spray or 18.75 feet of width



Kubota 8540;983849 said:


> I have set up a FEW sprayers and the first thing I always see is they always want to put a 500 gallon tank on a 3/4 ton truck. At approx 11 pounds per gallon, just not a great idea. You need to account for the slosh or surge also ( which most people are not willing to spend the $400 to eliminate ) unless you don't mind tearing up your equipment. But if your just going to pay money out for repairs ,why bother earning it to start with? Liquid in a tank is very different than salt in a hopper, two very different animals.


who in thier right mind would put 5,500 pounds of anything in the back of a 3/4 ton truck? I rember driving a f600 with a 600-1000 (I can't remember) gallon un baffled tank bolted to the bed. going around corners I wondered if the thing was going to rip right off the truck or pull the truck over with it and that was a F600.

So are you going to go forward with any of this ? I will want to see pics when its done.


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## Kubota 8540

BigLou80;984705 said:


> yeah if you have 10 tips at 2 gallons per minute each, then you would need a 20GPM pump. I don't know crap about spraying de icer, but only ten nozzles in 25 feet would result in a fan over 3 feet across. If I was setting it up I would go with more nozzles with less of a spray width
> 
> I was under the impression you only had a 150 gallon tank, at wich point a 20 GPM pump would be excessive by most peoples measure. If you only had 75% of the flow you would only have 75% of the spray or 18.75 feet of width
> 
> who in thier right mind would put 5,500 pounds of anything in the back of a 3/4 ton truck? I rember driving a f600 with a 600-1000 (I can't remember) gallon un baffled tank bolted to the bed. going around corners I wondered if the thing was going to rip right off the truck or pull the truck over with it and that was a F600.
> 
> So are you going to go forward with any of this ? I will want to see pics when its done.


I have 110 degree nozzles that will spray 6' across, but very seldom use them.
The nozzles I have been using are called Teejet SJ3 they are a triple stream which are spaced 20" apart but when the liquid hits the ground it stripes the ground about 6" apart, they are kind of strange. If you leaned 3 toothpicks together is what stream you would have. There is a picture of them on my album on my homepage. I've been experimenting with some different nozzles but haven't used them yet with the liquid de-icers, these are some serious fan type spaced 60" apart and easily capable of 100 gal/acre. The 60 psi works good with the stream nozzles but turns fan spray tips to mist.

The more often I spray, the more I get used to it, the faster I want to go. The problem with that is....... bigger volume..... which means bigger pump.

I would be willing to say 90% of the guys I talk to all want huge tanks when they first inquire about a sprayer setup.

Will I build this sprayer? I don't know yet. First I need to get some firm $$$ amounts together. Now that I have a better understanding of the motor/amp/battery setup, I will sort of know what I'm looking for? But, yes I really do like the idea of the electric setup. I have been reading other threads about guys adding second batteries and even second alternators but they are still only dealing with a 12 volt system with high amp draws. I think thru numbers we have found that with a 24 volt setup a roller pump can be used. The more I think about all the electric toys and accessories on the plow trucks the more it would make sense to have a 24 volt system. Even if it was just for an electrical accessory circuit.


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