# Township plowing



## Jdbillin (Jun 21, 2018)

Hey guys I just found this site and I started doing a bunch of reading. I’m located in central Ohio and I came across an opportunity to be able to place a bid for one of our local townships to do their plowing this upcoming winter.


A little bit of background on me I’m a farmer in the area and a small business owner. I’ve always debating on getting into snow removal my thought was it would be a great way to use some of my equipment year round. But with this I don’t think that would be the case but regardless I still would like to try and get the contract. I’ve helped with some commercial snow removal in the past and used my skid-loader and tractor before to do neighbors driveways. But I have a feeling doing public roads is going to be much different. The previous guy doing it used a dump truck and a pickup. I know there is around 10 miles of public roads and a few small housing additions.


I know he was charging $80 per hour, which I think seems pretty cheap. I’m just trying to figure out how I even should go about bidding on this. I read on here one guy was talking about per mile per lane. Or should I figure out an hourly rate and stick with that? 


I’m still in the planning stages with this but as of now I’m thinking of purchasing a single axle dump truck with a plow and a spreader as well as a plow and spreader for my personal pickup and beyond that I would just sub out any additional trucks or equipment.


I would like to be over prepared for this should I put a plan together for certain levels of snowfall for how many pieces of equipment I’ll have out there each day?


They are going to provide all of the salt and from what I understand they will have someone their to load the truck, so since I can’t make any money off of the salt should I bump the hourly rate up a little?


I need to get a good presentation together so when I go there to talk to them I sound like I know what I’m doing.


What are a few things that you guys have found really helps when it comes to talking to potential clients?


What mistakes have you made in the past that you feel are worth sharing to someone who is new to the business?


Also what differences should I expect when dealing with a township as opposed to a business or residential drive?


Sorry for all the questions I am kind of in a time crunch I still need to establish my business and get insurance and workers comp figured out. But I am open and would appreciate any tips, tricks or advice.


Thanks
Jordan


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I would never buy a dump truck to only plow snow if it's only earning 80.00 per hour. I wouldn't even buy a pickup to plow for 80.00 an hour anymore. You're also spreading salt that you don't get paid to spread? This doesn't sound right to me, and I'm sure other guys who have plowed township roads will chime in about this. I also wouldn't plow roads with any pickup either. With potholes etc...you'd be beating the CRAP out of the truck, and pickups just aren't made for that type of abuse. 

It all boils down to an hourly rate, whether it's a high dollar per hour rate, or a low one, it always comes back down to an hourly wage. I don't think the person who did it before you was getting paid an hourly rate, I'm guessing he was paid by the job, and by the inches, but when it was all said and done, he was earning around 80.00 per hour for his time. How much insurance coverage is required to do township roads? I'm guessing more than a million. 

I'm sure there is a lot more to this than I have knowledge about, as I've never subbed for a township before. Hopefully a few guys here who have done this will chime in and give you some more/better advice.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Be sure that your liability insurance will cover you for plowing a municipality. 
You’ll also need commercial auto and workers comp if you don’t already have those.


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## Jdbillin (Jun 21, 2018)

Thanks for the quick replies so apparently the $80 per hour is extremely low I had a feeling. The township may be in for a rude awaking once they start getting some of the bids, no wonder the guy went out of business lol


I guess I didn’t word it the greatest with the salt I would be getting paid to spread the salt I just wouldn’t be providing it so I would miss out on my opportunity to mark it up sorry for the confusion.


Wonder if I should consider finding two dump trucks then if a pickup wouldn’t be able to handle it. I was thinking it would be perfect for the small neighborhoods and tight spaces. I know the city has an entire fleet up pickups they plow the city roads with as well as single axle dump trucks.


He very well could have been paid by the job and it just boiled down to him making 80 per hour at the end of the day.


As far as insurance that is one of the things I still need to talk to them about when I get the first meeting set up I need to figure out what the requirements are in order to work for them the last thing I want is for something to happen and I find out that I’m underinsured.


Is liability insurance, commercial auto and workers comp the only 3 things I need to worry about from that standpoint?


Thanks
Jordan


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Some muni’s may require bonding, which will be in the RFP.

To be blunt, you won’t get the bid for Snow this season. I’ll list my reasons as to why when I get to a desktop


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Don't get me wrong, some people will plow city streets with pickups. You can see this at all of the municipal auctions. I just wouldn't personally do it.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I've done roads for my township with pickups. But you need to start about at two inches. And your at your section till it stops. If the job goes out to bid, there should be a bid package with all the insurance requirements. I had to have all the insurance in place just to put the bid in. If you didn't get the bid, tough cookies. If you hire subs, those trucks need to meet the insurance requirements, those guys also will need workman's comp. And the 80. Is low. You better have a good back up plan. If you get the bid, and you fail on a storm, and the town has to bring in another contractor. Your going to be on the hook for that.


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## Jdbillin (Jun 21, 2018)

Part of me was wondering if I would have to get bonded in order to do this, that is something I have zero experience with. Were would be a good place to start if that is the case?


I’m not giving up on this I actually have a pretty good shot at getting the job I just have to put my presentation together and sell myself to them.


What do you guys feel would be an appropriate equipment list to try and obtain? The past few winters around here have been pretty mild this year was the first time a lot of guy actually got to push any snow. There is a good chance that most of my efforts will be towards salting but there is the very real chance I’ll have to push snow at-least a few times.


As far as a back up plan that is something I’ve been thinking about, I have access to a few loader tractors and skid-loaders and possibly a wheel loader if needed but we only have buckets for them. 


I am new to this do they typically outline for you their requirements as far as when they want you to start salting then switch to plowing or this that something that is up to me to decide depending on snow and ice levels?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Put stand by pay in the mix. 10 miles is nothing time wise. 
If you want to make money at township work you need to know what you're doing. It's low bid, answer to the taxpayer work.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

You have to purchase equipment. You need extra parts. Add in your overhead. Payroll. Breakdown cost. Say your getting $110.00 an hour. It's probably costing you $60.00 an hour to run a truck. Just something to think about.


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## Jdbillin (Jun 21, 2018)

Thanks for the advice on stand-by pay how exactly does that work? Is that typically a percentage of the hourly rate?

With this type of work is there normally a section in the contract where you guys put an absolute minimum that they will have to pay you even if you only go out once through out the season? Do you just make sure its enough to cover your overhead?

I would like to make sure that no matter what I can have some of my expenses covered. I’m using to working around the weather and I know well enough by now that it does what it wants when its wants.

I don’t know about how this spring has been for you guys but around here they say its going to rain and it doesn’t then when its not suppose to rain it does and when were suppose to get a inch of rain we get 3 lol


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

You also need to check and see if you have to pay your employees Prevailing Wage.

If you do, the cat that is charging $80 an hour is most likely loosing money plowing snow... or lying to someone...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Not trying to be a jerk here. Most towns don't pay standby. That's mostly county and state. Your bid should be by the hour. There is no minimum yearly pay. This is from my municipal experience. Tho your situation may be different. You need to go see the township addministator. Have a list of questions. Ask him for a copy of the last season bid specs. You can also ask for copies of the last few years snow plowing payouts. Freedom of information act, they have to give it to you.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Randall Ave said:


> Ask him for a copy of the last season bid specs. You can also ask for copies of the last few years snow plowing payouts. Freedom of information act, they have to give it to you.


Bingo...

You can very easily figure out where you need to be with a FOIA.

It is amazing the info that they have to give you... down to emails between two people about the topic are subject to a FOIA


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Our insurance policy specifically states "state and political subdivisions thereof, snow removal and salting services may not be performed on highways, streets, alleys, or any other publicly owned surface intended for transportation or movement of vehicular traffic" although I have a rider covering hauling snow from these areas.

When I inquired about what it would cost to insure us to plow public streets, the answer I got was "more than the cost of your entire current snow removal policy"

Before I put much (if any) time into anything else, I would determine insurance requirements, and the cost to cover those requirements.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Our insurance policy specifically states "state and political subdivisions thereof, snow removal and salting services may not be performed on highways, streets, alleys, or any other publicly owned surface intended for transportation or movement of vehicular traffic" although I have a rider covering hauling snow from these areas.
> 
> When I inquired about what it would cost to insure us to plow public streets, the answer I got was "more than the cost of your entire current snow removal policy"
> 
> Before I put much (if any) time into anything else, I would determine insurance requirements, and the cost to cover those requirements.


The OP is asking some good questions, but I do not know if I would want to start out with roads. One, you need a better than average back up plan, cause if he fails in any way, the next township meeting the residents will be there with the tar and feathers. I've been there. I have always said, there is more money in driveways than doing roads. To make money in roads, you need large accounts with multiple trucks. County and state routes.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Randall Ave said:


> The OP is asking some good questions, but I do not know if I would want to start out with roads. One, you need a better than average back up plan, cause if he fails in any way, the next township meeting the residents will be there with the tar and feathers. I've been there. I have always said, there is more money in driveways than doing roads. To make money in roads, you need large accounts with multiple trucks. County and state routes.


The residents will be there with tar and feathers either way. It's just a question of do they have a valid reason to bring the tar and feathers.

OP, I'm not trying to discourage you, but you will defiantly see the lower points in the general public doing municipal work. Just be prepared.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> defiantly


He will definitely see them defiantly.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> He will definitely see them defiantly.


Looks like auto correct got me


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## fendt716 (Jun 11, 2013)

your a farmer. what kind tractors do you have? we plow with 6 tractors doing town plowing and 6 pickups f250 and f350 8 foot str blades or 9 foot 6 inch vee plows. no problems just do not due 100. check with town to see if you can be covered their ins. sometimes they will . depends on how the call out is and end is and who controls you.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

I hated plowing roads cuz it beats up equipment but if you win the right bid their is money to be made.. in nj at least.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

iceyman said:


> I hated plowing roads cuz it beats up equipment but if you win the right bid their is money to be made.. in nj at least.


 At least you Guys can bid them, The townships in my region don't give any out. I guess there to stupid to know a contractor could be cheaper.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

FredG said:


> At least you Guys can bid them, The townships in my region don't give any out. I guess there to stupid to know a contractor could be cheaper.


We have too many roads for townships to handle. In one inch deals they wont call in the contracts but anythinh 2 and over they will


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## Jdbillin (Jun 21, 2018)

You guys have been extremely helpful; I have a meeting set up with one of the trustees this week and I’m working on getting a list of questions together for him.

I will check into the prevailing wage. I don’t even know if they will have any bid specs but I’ll see how much info they have I’ll get as much as I can. I’m really curious to see exactly how much the other guy was getting I have a feeling they may be in for a wakeup call if they were getting the roads cleared for $80 an hour.

I will check into the insurance requirements for the township I spoke with my insurance agent and he didn’t think it would be a problem he is going to look into it some more for me though.

I really hope I can make something happen with this even if there isn’t as much money in roads I see this as a way into the snow removal business.

As far as a back up plan I’m still working on that I know if it comes down to it I can hire a friend with a couple of loaders and dump trucks if I get into the situation where I have to start hauling snow out.

I will ask and see if I can be covered by their insurance policy too when you plow with the tractors are you mounting plows on the front of them? Or are they loader tractors?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Every state, and town is different. They should have bid specs. How did they go about hiring someone in the past. Here, I also had to have workman's comp. And the township was listed on my policy as an additional insured party.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Jdbillin said:


> You guys have been extremely helpful; I have a meeting set up with one of the trustees this week and I'm working on getting a list of questions together for him.
> 
> I will check into the prevailing wage. I don't even know if they will have any bid specs but I'll see how much info they have I'll get as much as I can. I'm really curious to see exactly how much the other guy was getting I have a feeling they may be in for a wakeup call if they were getting the roads cleared for $80 an hour.
> 
> ...


 I must be missed the prevailing wage thing, I highly doubt prevailing wage will be necessary for driving a plow truck. It's more of a service not a construction thing. I could be wrong though. In my City a plow truck driver makes $36K a year, of course with the OT most do way better than that.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

And Fred knows, because he's been plowed on the roads, he's been plowed in the bars, he's been plowed everywhere!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JustJeff said:


> And Fred knows, because he's been plowed on the roads, he's been plowed in the bars, he's been plowed everywhere!


 This is true, in fact I'm going to get half plowed shortly. :laugh:


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

FredG said:


> This is true, in fact I'm going to get half plowed shortly. :laugh:


Be careful. Don't get a DUI or you'll be launching your boat like this.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

JustJeff said:


> Be careful. Don't get a DUI or you'll be launching your boat like this.
> 
> View attachment 181894


I think here in Jersey. If you got a dwi. The horse carage might be out. I no you can't drive a lawn mower on the road.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Jdbillin said:


> I will check into the prevailing wage.


If they require prevailing wage you'll have to submit certified payroll.

Too much of a hassle just to periodically plow snow. Hard to imagine this as a requirement.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Luther said:


> If they require prevailing wage you'll have to submit certified payroll.
> 
> Too much of a hassle just to periodically plow snow. Hard to imagine this as a requirement.


I doddid have to do prevailing wage. But they wanted everything insured. With proof.


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## Jdbillin (Jun 21, 2018)

Randall Ave said:


> Every state, and town is different. They should have bid specs. How did they go about hiring someone in the past. Here, I also had to have workman's comp. And the township was listed on my policy as an additional insured party.


I'm pretty sure the same guy has been doing it for years, my guess is he met the right person one year and they just kept using him. I'll talk to the township and my insurance agent about having them on the policy


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Jdbillin said:


> I'm pretty sure the same guy has been doing it for years, my guess is he met the right person one year and they just kept using him. I'll talk to the township and my insurance agent about having them on the policy


Your putting the cart in front of the horse. You need to see the requirements needed to perform any service first.


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## fendt716 (Jun 11, 2013)

the 2 jd have frames we built 10 foot root plows. the 4 fendts have front 3pt hla snow wing plows 10-16 or 12-18. on side streets and subs open that wing out to 18 foot 1 pass down and 1 pass back done with road.randall ave do not know when you plowed town but snow removal and or plowing is emexpt from prevailing wage law by state of n.j. law for at least the last 15 years.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

JustJeff said:


> Be careful. Don't get a DUI or you'll be launching your boat like this.
> 
> View attachment 181894


I wonder if he has to have a doubles endorsment on his license.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I wonder if he has to have a doubles endorsment on his license.


 I'm such a bad drunk I have to have breathalyzers in all my trucks. Haven't been busted for DWI in 35 years. :laugh:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> I think here in Jersey. If you got a dwi. The horse carage might be out. I no you can't drive a lawn mower on the road.


 NY is the same way. These guys crack me up when they let there operators road hoes and loaders that had DWI. As far as I know a pedal bike is all your allowed and you better be sober.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Jdbillin said:


> I'm pretty sure the same guy has been doing it for years, my guess is he met the right person one year and they just kept using him. I'll talk to the township and my insurance agent about having them on the policy


 Of course, sometime it's who you know not what you know. Especially with a minci, Christmas bonus and a 40 year old bottle of scotch goes a long way. :laugh:


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

fendt716 said:


> the 2 jd have frames we built 10 foot root plows. the 4 fendts have front 3pt hla snow wing plows 10-16 or 12-18. on side streets and subs open that wing out to 18 foot 1 pass down and 1 pass back done with road.randall ave do not know when you plowed town but snow removal and or plowing is emexpt from prevailing wage law by state of n.j. law for at least the last 15 years.


My post was supposed to be, didn't have to pay prevailing wage. It's all mute until the op goes to the town for some information.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

FredG said:


> I'm such a bad drunk I have to have breathalyzers in all my trucks. Haven't been busted for DWI in 35 years. :laugh:


alright guys, let's get back on point


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Randall Ave said:


> I think here in Jersey. If you got a dwi. The horse carage might be out. I no you can't drive a lawn mower on the road.


Anything with a motor is out.. horse is ok lol


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

iceyman said:


> Anything with a motor is out.. horse is ok lol


 In NY it don't have to have a motor on it, Never heard of DWI on horse lol, but have seen people on a pedal bike. People on pedal bikes are bad around here. You would think they got a death wish lol.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

FredG said:


> In NY it don't have to have a motor on it, Never heard of DWI on horse lol, but have seen people on a pedal bike. People on pedal bikes are bad around here. You would think they got a death wish lol.


Hahaha all u can get is public intoxication here for anythinh without a motor.. true story my crazy neighbor got arrested for driving smashed down the road on his lawnmower with 4 flat tires.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

FredG said:


> In NY it don't have to have a motor on it, Never heard of DWI on horse lol, but have seen people on a pedal bike. People on pedal bikes are bad around here. You would think they got a death wish lol.


Ya can't swing a dead cat here without hitting an illegal on a bicycle.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Randall Ave said:


> Ya can't swing a dead cat here without hitting an illegal on a bicycle.


It's illegal to swing a dead cat here...


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## Jdbillin (Jun 21, 2018)

So I had the first meeting with one of the trustees for the township. Found out there is 13.5 miles of road with 2 small housing additions included in that.

They will be providing the salt its going to be coming from the county I can either go and have them load it or take a few loads back to my place and then load as needed.

They will also be listed on my insurance policy as an additional party.

I’m going to go to a township meeting next week and they’ll give me a few minutes to speak so I can tell them what I have to offer.

He did tell me they are also considering having the county do the work and from my understanding that is very expensive so that’s good for me!

I have to get a rough equipment list together and figure out my hourly rate any advice on that would be greatly appreciated. One local guy said they charge $85 for pickups and $135 for a single axle dump. I have a wheel loader and a dump truck I can get my hands on if needed I still need to figure out what would be a fair rate to pay them and also what to charge the township if we get a really bad storm.

Where it gets tricky is I somehow have to convince them to let me do the work without actually having any of the equipment yet. Luckily I still have plenty of time before winter hits.

I open to any advice anyone can give me. I probably should make a plan of action for different levels of snowfall correct? 1,3,5 inches?

With something like this do you normally pre treat with salt then plow once it stops snowing then salt again?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Jdbillin said:


> So I had the first meeting with one of the trustees for the township. Found out there is 13.5 miles of road with 2 small housing additions included in that.


Is that 13.5 lane miles or 27 lane miles?


> They will be providing the salt its going to be coming from the county I can either go and have them load it or take a few loads back to my place and then load as needed.


Hope you have somewhere dry to store it and a way to load it


> They will also be listed on my insurance policy as an additional party.


Not out of the norm, still should to make sure your provider will cover a municipality
As well as having commercial auto, bonding, and workers comp.


> I'm going to go to a township meeting next week and they'll give me a few minutes to speak so I can tell them what I have to offer.
> 
> He did tell me they are also considering having the county do the work and from my understanding that is very expensive so that's good for me!


Other than you could potentially be cheaper, why should they go with you?
You don't have the equipment, you don't have the knowledge or experience.


> I have to get a rough equipment list together and figure out my hourly rate any advice on that would be greatly appreciated. One local guy said they charge $85 for pickups and $135 for a single axle dump. I have a wheel loader and a dump truck I can get my hands on if needed I still need to figure out what would be a fair rate to pay them and also what to charge the township if we get a really bad storm.


Who cares what one local guy charges, you need to calculate your expenses and can't be afraid to say "no" if you won't make money.


> Where it gets tricky is I somehow have to convince them to let me do the work without actually having any of the equipment yet. Luckily I still have plenty of time before winter hits.


Goes back to "why should they hire you"


> I open to any advice anyone can give me. I probably should make a plan of action for different levels of snowfall correct? 1,3,5 inches?


Yes, but you're going to need more that just a plan of action for the pushing snow.
When do employees start pushing? What if Freddy calls in sick and you're on your own.
Who handles the calls/ complaints from the city manager?
What's your backup when something breaks
What about post storm work? (Pushing winrows, clearing fire lanes, etc)



> With something like this do you normally pre treat with salt then plow once it stops snowing then salt again?


Pre treating is a technique, certainly not an answer to everything but can be useful at times

Also make sure you get a paper RFP


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

13 miles is all? That can be handled with 1 truck...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Jdbillin said:


> So I had the first meeting with one of the trustees for the township. Found out there is 13.5 miles of road with 2 small housing additions included in that.
> 
> They will be providing the salt its going to be coming from the county I can either go and have them load it or take a few loads back to my place and then load as needed.
> 
> ...


 I don't know about having a single axle and loader if needed that you don't own. I'm pretty sure they will want proof of ownership or some leases in place. In this region the big parking area's want proof of ownership for dedicated equipment.

I don't plow roads because they don't give any out but the minci's do pre treat every storm. Hard pack is no joke. I'm thinking if I could get some roads I would want a single axle with reverse able 
and wing with the exception of City streets. Good luck


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Your pricing is low. You need to presalt. Salt needs to be stored in a dry area. You also might want to check with DEP on salt storage requirements. If you use someone else's equipment, they need to be insured the same as you. You don't own any equipment yet for this? Most towns want a list of your equipment, and may do a visual inspection. Most towns pay by the hour, but you can put in a minimum call out, say 6 hours.


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