# Here's what we billed for some projects. Reasonable?



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

All -

We're in the south here. Very rare to get a significant snow event. Ice a little more common, but this was one of the worst weather events we've had (as far as snow goes) in around 10 years. Plowing and salting is not a normal thing here - rare and considered emergency serivce.

Combined total of about 10 inches over the course of about 60 hours with two primary precipitation events.

One property was around 8 acres, plowed 100% DURING one storm, again about 50% between storms, and then 100% after second storm. Shoveled about 12k SF by hand each of these times as well. And salted by push spreaders - about a combined 16 acres. (this takes into account shoveled areas, plowed areas, and number of passes) Total was around $27,000.

Another is about 5 acres, plowed twice - salted once. Another 8k or so in shoveled sidewalks - $14,000.

Others are smaller quick service restaurants - think like a McDonalds or Wendys, etc.. The 1x plow and salt price on these was around $1500.

Others are small scale grocery stores. Around 1-1.5 acres of plow areas, salted as well - 1 time - around $2k on average, maybe closer to $2250 on average.

Before I fire off these invoices, just wanted to get input from you all here who do this more often. Again - this is not something that happens very often here at all.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Silly question - you said these are already completed. I assume you had some sort of agreed upon price with the client based on per push/hourly/inches/something/anything prior to showing up at these sites?

Or did all of these sites just say "come plow, shovel, and salt! Money is no object!"?


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

They all signed an agreement with hourly rates and ice melt per-bag rates. We don't do bulk down here for the most part.

Our hourly rate I feel is a fair price - but our equipment was a bit smaller than what several competitors used, thats why I'm trying to figure if we ended up at a fair total for these folks. We did work effeciently.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

The standard accepted rate ( I searched it on here) for a plow truck is 1 acre/ hour.
So an 8 acre lot would be 8 hours.
I get there are mitigating factors. 
It's the walks that need clarification 
12k sq ft is 3000ft of 4' walk.
That's 10 football field lengths
A shovel is the wrong tool for that job.


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Agree on the shovel being the wrong tool, but again we are very rarely dealing with this so the desire to equip with the ideal tool for every scenario is not appealing as the capital tied up isn't worth it. Does the final rate seem reasonable?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

brendontw said:


> Agree on the shovel being the wrong tool, but again we are very rarely dealing with this so the desire to equip with the ideal tool for every scenario is not appealing as the capital tied up isn't worth it. Does the final rate seem reasonable?


I bill shoveling per minute. $30 gets you up to 20 minutes,then $2/ min
For your situation $5 might be fair.
But if they agreed to time and materials then they shouldn't complain. But they will.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

jonniesmooth said:


> But if they agreed to time and materials then they shouldn't complain. *But they will.*


Ain't _that_ the truth


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

brendontw said:


> Agree on the shovel being the wrong tool, but again we are very rarely dealing with this so the desire to equip with the ideal tool for every scenario is not appealing as the capital tied up isn't worth it. Does the final rate seem reasonable?


Curious - so, for the McDonalds parking lot that was $1500 for one push - what was your hourly rate?

Also, did not a single one of these clients ask for an estimate on the time needed or estimated dollar amount?


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Correct, no estimates were given or requested.

Can't remember how many hours - would have to dig back into production records. I was just sent this by operations today, wanted to approve invoices before being sent. Should a McDonalds plowed and salted twice with a combined 8-10" of snow be around $1500? or $300? Or $2500?

Just wondering if I'm in the ballpark.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

You want us to approve your invoices...?


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Mr.Markus said:


> You want us to approve your invoices...?





brendontw said:


> Just wondering if I'm in the ballpark.


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## TJS (Oct 22, 2003)

I am still trying to figure out that 12K SF shoveled: was this side walks ?


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

TJS said:


> I am still trying to figure out that 12K SF shoveled: was this side walks ?


Yes it was.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

I think youre ok chief, are you sure youre covering your cost for salt? Would you consider washing your equipment as a unbillable?


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Mudly said:


> I think youre ok chief, are you sure youre covering your cost for salt? Would you consider washing your equipment as a unbillable?


I appreciate it. No, we don't plan to bill for that since we don't wash until everyone is done. Yeah, salt is covered well.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Dang!!!!!

All factors considered, it's "fair" but expect some pushback.

That's some serious money.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Your really in a unusual market. It’s not like there are very many contractors to provide services like that. I’m thinking its fair but not really sure. Sure it sounds high for most of us being in our areas but it’s not.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

8 acre lot= 8 hours
Let's allow you 12 due to the situation.
12 hours at $100/ hour= $1200
Let's add a premium for your situation, make it $2,000.
Now, the walks,
5286 ft in a mile. 3000k ft=1.76 miles
Sidewalk machine moving 4 mph does those in 30 minutes.
That's $90 . And that's minimum charge,that's for a whole hour.
Double it for your situation, and round it up,call it $300

So $2000 for the first push
$300 for the walks

Same for the second, blizzard clause,working during the storm premium
price

Same for the third.

So $6900

How many pallets of salt?
I get $612.50 for a pallet of salt plus application time, which has a $40 minimum for up to 15 min.
$160/ hour.

Wait! I have this 300#/ acre is enough fellas!

So let's double that. 600# X 16 acres= 9600 #
2450# on a pallet, so 4 pallets
$2450 for salt
10 hours application time=$1600

So $6900 plowing and walks
$2450 for salt
$1600 application fee
------------
$10950
Could you double this number and still be reasonable? I think so.


If the situation allowed, I'd load up my plow and tractor and come work for you for 3-5 days for these numbers.
You would have to guarantee me $10,000 of work or pay the difference.
And I'd want half up front when I showed up
And the balance on completion.


Good luck!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jonniesmooth said:


> 8 acre lot= 8 hours
> Let's allow you 12 due to the situation.
> 12 hours at $100/ hour= $1200
> Let's add a premium for your situation, make it $2,000.
> ...


Except he doesn't have your equipment. No sidewalk machine moving 4 MPH. And the likelihood of them plowing an acre per hour is slim since they never get snow. What if they're using skidsteers with 6 or 8 foot dirt buckets?

You can't base his numbers on your equipment and experience.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

I don’t agree with certain figures because of said equipment. You don’t know what’s being used. Not to mention if I have a plow truck there and you get maybe 1 event a season you better believe I’m charging way more than posted. Like double OO said


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Your time is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it...all things considered I think your numbers are fair.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Except he doesn't have your equipment. No sidewalk machine moving 4 MPH. And the likelihood of them plowing an acre per hour is slim since they never get snow. What if they're using skidsteers with 6 or 8 foot dirt buckets?
> 
> You can't base his numbers on your equipment and experience.


Right,that's why I said doubling my price would be fair.
And in s prior post to him $5/ min for hand shoveling wasn't unreasonable. 
He never told us how many hours they shoveled. But $5/minute is $300 an hour..


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

> Mark Oomkes said:
> You can't base his numbers on your equipment and experience.


But I have to base them on something.
He wouldn't give us the hourly rate or the number of hours,or the equipment used.

So I couldn't base it on anything he put out.
But I gave him real numbers from an area that gets snow.

We have also in other threads ( not you and I personally) argued that a person can't charge more because they use a shovel vs a snowblower to do the same job.
And on that note he never elaborated on the sidewalks. If they were using skids with buckets why couldn't they run them on the walks? At least a good portion of them?
He said they were efficient, but did they use the skids to backdrag the walks into the parking lots? To lessen the amount of shoving?
I get it. They were out of their element and there is no basis in their area for this.
They need to make their customers understand that and pay accordingly.

Somehow I jumped threads with this. Not sure how that happened.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jonniesmooth said:


> But I have to base them on something.
> He wouldn't give us the hourly rate or the number of hours,or the equipment used.
> 
> So I couldn't base it on anything he put out.
> ...


6' bucket on a 4' walk?


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

m_ice said:


> Your time is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it...all things considered I think your numbers are fair.


Even if he had a cat 960 with a 20' MP and did it


Mark Oomkes said:


> 6' bucket on a 4' walk?


if it was metric it would work


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

$1500.00 for a McDonald's size parking lot. I believe that price is Super Sized. I hope you get paid. Good Luck - Rick


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

And wouldn't the skidsteers be used on the lots more efficiently?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> 6' bucket on a 4' walk?


Run it 1" off the ground.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> And wouldn't the skidsteers be used on the lots more efficiently?


They are there anyway,what's a half hour matter?
Run the skid down the walk with the bucket an 1" off the ground.
Save your shoulder the extra work.
That's assuming they had a separate shoveled.
What if the guy got out of the skid and it sat doing nothing while he shoveled for 4 hours?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jonniesmooth said:


> Run it 1" off the ground.


So they don't get snow so no frost in the ground. 6'wide bucket/machine is going to tear the **** out of the landscape/lawn.

Are you going to plow a 5 acre lot with your 1025 while your truck sits?


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## kzog65 (Feb 15, 2021)

jonniesmooth said:


> We have also in other threads ( not you and I personally) argued that a person can't charge more because they use a shovel vs a snowblower to do the same job.


I recall the thread / discussion and thinking...yeap makes sense. Except it sounds like his situation and the situation there, were extraordinary. Playing devils advocate, if the situation is that extraordinary, snow removal services were most likely at a premium and demand far exceeded the supply of available snow removal services...so if they wanted his service and all they had were smaller equipment and shovelers at x dollars per hour for the walkways, then thats the premium. To your last point, they need to lay this out for their customers so they understand. They may not like it, but it is what it is. My .02 FWIW.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So they don't get snow so no frost in the ground. 6'wide bucket/machine is going to tear the **** out of the landscape/lawn.
> 
> Are you going to plow a 5 acre lot with your 1025 while your truck sits?


We are just speculating,we haven't been given enough information to know what they did. Much less second guess it.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Compared to those $30,000.00 electric bills in Texas you're prices are a bargain. As long as you previously told your customers your rates you shouldn't have any problems. Customers always have sticker shock when it comes to loader rates. They always seem to think that they should pay the same rate as a 5hp snow blower


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

brendontw said:


> All -
> 
> We're in the south here. Very rare to get a significant snow event. Ice a little more common, but this was one of the worst weather events we've had (as far as snow goes) in around 10 years. Plowing and salting is not a normal thing here - rare and considered emergency serivce.
> 
> ...


Your numbers would not be competitive here. Way too high. You would starve and have no work. Low snow regions do get a premium. Be thankful if you actually get paid what you posted.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I can't even comprehend salting 16 acres with push spreaders...twice.

Correction...2 and a half times.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I can't even comprehend salting 16 acres with push spreaders...twice.
> 
> Correction...2 and a half times.


I was processing that. 
I came up with the truck with the salt in it basically driving along side or between them to refill.
Our city guys used to put a pallet in a pickup .
Two guys sat on the endgate throwing salt, one guy in the bed cutting open bags for them.


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Gentlemen, a few notes. Sorry for leaving some info out. 

Most of the discussion here has revolved around the biggest property we did, and that’s mostly what I’m replying to here;

On salting 16 acres - that was total area covered during the entire event. Not 2.5 times. By the time the event was over we had salted a combined 16 acres. This was just for one property however. Not fun, but you do what you have to.

We were mostly using 40-45hp tractors with 6’ loaders and 6’ boxes on the rears. (3 of them) While the volume of snow you could push wasn’t huge, we were able to move really fast in high gear and able to navigate well.

There were vehicles parked in the lot during certain hours which also slowed us down 

As far as using a skid on the sidewalks, yes - too wide, and the turf on the sides is too tall, and a 10k lb skid would have screwed up the edges really bad as far as turf and irrigation goes.


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

We are billing $300 per hour for tractors and $150 per hour for shovelers.


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

I mean your rates and equipment used aren’t anything near industry standard. A truck with an 8’ blade is the smallest thing used in commercial work.

If you get paid what your proposing that’s a hell of a win.


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

That’s what I was wondering. However, there were very few plows out here on the front of trucks - besides DOT. Most commercial properties we saw skid steers.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Hang on, $300 per hour for 1 tractor or $300 per hour for all 3 tractors?


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Kinport said:


> Hang on, $300 per hour for 1 tractor or $300 per hour for all 3 tractors?


Per.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

There is no industry standard pricing.


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

I can’t remember if I included this before or not - for the one property that this thread has mostly been about - the 27k one, we have done some smaller events for them this year using the same hourly rates and never had any questions.


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

For comparisons were $160 an hour for a medium duty truck with a wideout xl (11’ plow). Your charging almost double that for a tractor with a blade half the size.

Your charging 150$ an hour per shoveler???


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Yes, correct. Are you guys in the south? How often are you plowing? For us an event like this is every 7-10 years. This year has Ben odd with a few winter precip events.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

brendontw said:


> I can't remember if I included this before or not - for the one property that this thread has mostly been about - the 27k one, we have done some smaller events for them this year using the same hourly rates and never had any questions.


And they will use that against you.
Why did it take so long, cost so much this time?

Welcome to the snow plow life.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rizzoa13 said:


> For comparisons were $160 an hour for a medium duty truck with a wideout xl (11' plow). Your charging almost double that for a tractor with a blade half the size.
> 
> Your charging 150$ an hour per shoveler???


You're in Jersey?

You're on the low side of pricing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jonniesmooth said:


> And they will use that against you.
> Why did it take so long, cost so much this time?
> 
> Welcome to the snow plow life.


Small events vs bigger events.

Of course it will take longer.


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## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

jonniesmooth said:


> And they will use that against you.
> Why did it take so long, cost so much this time?
> 
> Welcome to the snow plow life.


Fortunately this storm was significantly worse and longer lasting, and they added more area as well. Actually received a thank you email today for all of the help last week.

again, this is just for the one property.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Ballpark for my area is $150/hour for a nicely equipped plow truck and $65/hour for a laborer. If you can get the prices you posted, do it. This kid did:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cn...s/teen-makes-35k-plowing-snow-trnd/index.html
This thread and the story I linked have got me seriously considering chasing freak snowstorms


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Small events vs bigger events.
> 
> Of course it will take longer.
> 
> ...


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I can't even comprehend salting 16 acres with push spreaders...twice.
> 
> Correction...2 and a half times.


Ikr that would be a sight. I feel for this man.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

This reminds me of a time I was talking about seasonal pricing with some guys from buffalo New York. It was about seasonal pricing, for residential driveways. Basing the price upon how much snow we get, to buffalo, we were/are getting About 4x’s the rate.

The more snow, the more plow monkeys, the more beat down the pricing gets


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## Treeboy (Nov 8, 2017)

While this is a lot of money for places with consistent snow and more than i would charge my buddy just went south with trucks and skids. He claims it was the biggest s*** show hes ever seen. No contractor had a clue how to move snow. These customers may just b lucky they got reopened. They agreed to the pricing and thats about it they are legally liable. Getting paid from a 1 off emergency deal is hard in any industry.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

My gut feeling right off the bat on totals billed out... wayyy to high. 41k for the two bigger properties?? Ouch! After reading through all the comments, imma stick with my gut.
I mean, if we had some videos to base off of, we would have a better sense of what went down out there.


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You're in Jersey?
> 
> You're on the low side of pricing.


That's my sub price for the guy who holds the insurance and supplies the salt for his sites. The amount we charge for our own sites is either a per push/per salt or seasonal rate and your right it does come out a good hit higher than my sub price.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rizzoa13 said:


> That's my sub price for the guy who holds the insurance and supplies the salt for his sites.


So that's not really the rate.



rizzoa13 said:


> The amount we charge for our own sites is either a per push/per salt or seasonal rate


Right, but it is based on an hourly rate and the amount of time estimated to accomplish that work.



rizzoa13 said:


> your right it does come out a good hit higher than my sub price.


What does the subcontracting rate have to do with this discussion? The OP is the contract holder and the one performing the work?


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

I'm having a hard time being critical of the OP. He says he provided these services already this season at the stated rates. It was extenuating circumstances for the area, and if the market will bear the rates that he's charging, then why not? They don't push 8" storms a few times a year like many of us do. Therefore, his revenue ought to be proportionate to the time and resources it takes to perform this service in a "non-snow" area.

We've experienced early or late snows here, either before the start date of contract(s) or after. In these events, clients have issued PO's to ensure that the snow removal work is done at per hour or per event pricing. I've never experienced non-payment for those events, even though the amount charged in some instances was more than 25% of the seasonal contract. What it does provide is insight to the client as to what our true operational costs are. For example, at one development we provide snow removal services to, our operational cost for clearing a 2" storm is just shy of $5k. On a larger storm, that cost will multiply by a factor proportionate to the amount of snow we receive.

The events in Texas over the past week have had my wheels turning - I see a huge opportunity there. Problem is, they keep telling us that things are warming up?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Brendon, do I think the rates are high? Absolutely, but we've just plowed and salted for the better part of 2 weeks straight, closer to 3 with maybe 3 or 4 days without doing any snow related work. Actually might be less because we've been moving snow too. Heck, I don't even remember when it started. 

Anyways, $150 for a shoveler seems very high, but none of us are in your market. 

$300 for a tractor seems a bit high, but not quite as high as the man hour rate. 

But this is all based on what I think, we average 75"+ per year so we have a more opportunity to recover our overhead costs, invest in equipment and gain experience to be efficient. So I can't really say that your prices are too high.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> But this is all based on what I think, we average 75"+ per year so we have a more opportunity to recover our overhead costs, invest in equipment and gain experience to be efficient. So I can't really say that your prices are too high.


This.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

My only advice would be to work it into the contract going forward (if it's not already in there). If you've got a p.o. for this thing, fire away.

I'm ok with the pricing based on the situation..... plus, think of all the money these places have been saving on snow services all these years :laugh:


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## shawn_ (Jan 19, 2014)

Your prices are fine , you are in the south not many people are pushing snow .... supply and demand .

if you ever need help I can come equipped with skid steers, pushers & trucks with wideouts/ V plows .

as long as it’s not snowing here in central NJ.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

When I worked in the restaurant business, one of them,50 miles away had a food poisoning incident. 
They had to close and clean and be re inspected in order to open.
That took 3 days.
But, none of their employees could work for 2 weeks until they had tested negative 2X for whatever it was.
I ran their kitchen for 2 weeks, they paid me mileage, 120 miles/ day, plus paid my drive time,2 hours a day.
The reason they didn't put me in a hotel was there was a shortage of rooms, because they had employees from other stores from up to 300 miles away in them to keep the store running.
The point of my story is this: they had insurance to cover these costs.

I wonder if these businesses might have insurance to cover this?
I know it's apples and oranges. 
But, I have friends who drive OTR and they have insurance to cover clean up after an accident because that can get into the $ xx,xxx range really quick.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

You guys ever seen the "books" on a single daily revenue take for a large company lot that you may plow? For instance lets take your average Costco. They have generally really large lots. A standard store takes in anywhere from 850k to 1.1 mil a day. If I were to be in this sized snow removal business, I'd have no problem throwing out a 25k to 30k bid per event 4 inches and up. As I recall talking to an old timer(now retired) that ran a huge outfit doing just these sized lots, that was pretty much the numbers they worked with. So what happened and why do these large corporate lots now go for nothing? These corporations make more revenue revenue and net than 20 years ago.

I believe that the original poster is well within reason to charge what he is. And it sounds like they have been agreeing. It is what it is.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ice-sage said:


> If I were to be in this sized snow removal business, I'd have no problem throwing out a 25k to 30k bid per event 4 inches and up.


You ever lived in Philly?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

If Costco takes in 850k a day what were their daily costs? Inventory, power, insurance, personnel.Maintenance. Operatinions

And I don’t think your going to get paid 30K
A day for a 4 day snowstorm.


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## sota (Jan 31, 2011)

It seems that...
It's an area that doesn't have a large need for snow removal.
That results in not a lot of competition, or a lot of infrastructure in place to handle snow removal.
The end result is that prices for snow removal, especially in extreme events, are going to be quite high; much higher than in areas (such as mine) that are saturated with companies and equipment.
His pricing in that light seems to be within reason, especially if the customer is actually paying. After all, a good or service is only worth what both the buyer and seller agree is the price.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

And then one was remember this is an extreme event like a Costco in Texas
the snow melted in a day or 2
Nobody Could Drive anyways, the store may not of even had Power or water.
plowing the lot wascould be an expenditure that was not needed.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

brendontw said:


> We are billing $300 per hour for tractors and $150 per hour for shovelers.


I'm sorry but this is what I have a problem with the most. The tractors...seems pretty high to me. The shovelers... that's just outrageous. If you are offering these services, don't you kinda have to be prepared to service? No matter how rare an event? You don't own a snowblower?? Or a skid steer?? Or a plow truck?? Maybe I'm missing too much information on your business and how your service contracts are worded. I apologize if I'm jumping to a conclusion I shouldn't be.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Hydromaster said:


> If Costco takes in 850k a day what were their daily costs? Inventory, power, insurance, personnel.Maintenance. Operatinions
> 
> And I don't think your going to get paid 30K
> A day for a 4 day snowstorm.


Yeah,they probably have close to 200 employees daily alone an 8 hour day at $15 would be $24k, and I'm sure a lot of the bakers and meat cutters make in the low $20's. How many pharmacists? The highest paid people in the store.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

WIPensFan said:


> I'm sorry but this is what I have a problem with the most. The tractors...seems pretty high to me. The shovelers... that's just outrageous. If you are offering these services, don't you kinda have to be prepared to service? No matter how rare an event? You don't own a snowblower?? Or a skid steer?? Or a plow truck?? Maybe I'm missing too much information on your business and how your service contracts are worded. I apologize if I'm jumping to a conclusion I shouldn't be.


A lot of this was covered previously. 
That was my thought on the walks.
Nobody has a blade on a 4 wheeler that wanted to make $300?

But they did what they could,with what they had. With ( it sounds like) zero previous experience. 
It doesn't snow there normally so it not like they had a signed contract in Nov.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

jonniesmooth said:


> Yeah,they probably have close to 200 employees daily alone an 8 hour day at $15 would be $24k, and I'm sure a lot of the bakers and meat cutters make in the low $20's. How many pharmacists? The highest paid people in the store.


- Taxes, and free samples too

U Can always "hop the curb" and. & back drag sidewalks , if you have to,


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> If Costco takes in 850k a day what were their daily costs? Inventory, power, insurance, personnel.Maintenance. Operatinions
> 
> And I don't think your going to get paid 30K
> A day for a 4 day snowstorm.


WHAT????!!!!!!!!

Are you saying that sales aren't all profit?

This is what makes bizness owners the evil rich...they have no costs running a bizness, everything is profit.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Yes,

I know it might’ve been confusing as I was trying to be tactful...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jonniesmooth said:


> Nobody has a blade on a 4 wheeler that wanted to make $300?


Why would they?

They don't get snow often.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

All they need is a old tire or a water heater...


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Why would they?
> 
> They don't get snow often.


To move dirt,or sand,or gravel, or manure?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jonniesmooth said:


> To move dirt,or sand,or gravel, or manure?


4 wheeler blades are junk...barely capable of moving snow.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> 4 wheeler blades are junk...barely capable of moving snow.


When has that ever stopped people from buying anything?


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Holy cow. Never thought I would hear you guys defending monolithic corporations that almost pay no taxes, force me and you to subsidize their employees through your wonderful govco, force your cities and counties to subsidize their property taxes, get a cut out of our taxes for each employee they have, get subsidies for their utilities and on and on. 

So it seems you fellas are on board for getting paid peanuts for winter services and that is exactly why snow removal companies can't get that 20k for a Costco lot per storm anymore. And you guys wonder why the National Service Providers emerged. To Tank you all to the bottom. 

But it is alright. The shareholders of said large lot corporations are happy to continually drive down your pay for profit to them. Any which way and loose.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ice-sage said:


> Holy cow. Never thought I would hear you guys defending monolithic corporations that almost pay no taxes, force me and you to subsidize their employees through your wonderful govco, force your cities and counties to subsidize their property taxes, get a cut out of our taxes for each employee they have, get subsidies for their utilities and on and on.
> 
> So it seems you fellas are on board for getting paid peanuts for winter services and that is exactly why snow removal companies can't get that 20k for a Costco lot per storm anymore. And you guys wonder why the National Service Providers emerged. To Tank you all to the bottom.
> 
> But it is alright. The shareholders of said large lot corporations are happy to continually drive down your pay for profit to them. Any which way and loose.


You should change your username to Gumby...or maybe Slinky...cuz that's one heck of a stretch.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

let's stick to the topic and not ruin another good thread

thanks


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Ice-sage said:


> You guys ever seen the "books" on a single daily revenue take for a large company lot that you may plow? For instance lets take your average Costco. They have generally really large lots. A standard store takes in anywhere from 850k to 1.1 mil a day. If I were to be in this sized snow removal business, I'd have no problem throwing out a 25k to 30k bid per event 4 inches and up. As I recall talking to an old timer(now retired) that ran a huge outfit doing just these sized lots, that was pretty much the numbers they worked with. So what happened and why do these large corporate lots now go for nothing? These corporations make more revenue revenue and net than 20 years ago.
> 
> I believe that the original poster is well within reason to charge what he is. And it sounds like they have been agreeing. It is what it is.


They dont gross that kind of money


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Ice-sage said:


> Holy cow. Never thought I would hear you guys defending monolithic corporations that almost pay no taxes, force me and you to subsidize their employees through your wonderful govco, force your cities and counties to subsidize their property taxes, get a cut out of our taxes for each employee they have, get subsidies for their utilities and on and on.
> 
> So it seems you fellas are on board for getting paid peanuts for winter services and that is exactly why snow removal companies can't get that 20k for a Costco lot per storm anymore. And you guys wonder why the National Service Providers emerged. To Tank you all to the bottom.
> 
> But it is alright. The shareholders of said large lot corporations are happy to continually drive down your pay for profit to them. Any which way and loose.


I agree with your assessment, they do get away with murder and make huge money, but who here is defending them? And no one is on board settling for peanuts....unless you're just a green ignoramus ...but 20k a storm isn't feasible. Why don't you educate us on the good old days when Costco was paying over 20k a storm.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Mudly said:


> They dont gross that kind of money


Wanna bet? I dare you.

These large vast companies make so much money and profit, what you see from the media and news and the SEC itself is misleading. These corps have extemely large hidden assets and securities and funds and trusts and money accounts outside the jurisdiction of the US.

Fun fact. These companies are so rolling in the dough, they can even afford to take out life insurance policies on every single employee(which they never divulge to the employees) and reap the benefits if you die in their employment wether you are at work or not. Even when you are no longer working for them, they are so filthy rich, they will still pay a massive discounted rate for your life insurance till the day you die. And YOU GET NOTHING.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Fact of the matter is, the original poster absolutely deserves what he is asking. It is 2021. Not 1980. It is okay to be envious, jealousy on the other hand...


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

that sounds worse than a kick in the azz with a frozen mukluk, but what do it have to do with plowing snow?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Chineau said:


> that sounds worse than a kick in the azz with a frozen mukluk, but what do it have to do with plowing snow?


I think he's saying if you have a client that's well-off it's OK to price gouge them.

Ps
Sage, Bud....
if you dislike their policies so much you don't have to work for them.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Ice-sage said:


> Wanna bet? I dare you.
> 
> These large vast companies make so much money and profit, what you see from the media and news and the SEC itself is misleading. These corps have extemely large hidden assets and securities and funds and trusts and money accounts outside the jurisdiction of the US.
> 
> Fun fact. These companies are so rolling in the dough, they can even afford to take out life insurance policies on every single employee(which they never divulge to the employees) and reap the benefits if you die in their employment wether you are at work or not. Even when you are no longer working for them, they are so filthy rich, they will still pay a massive discounted rate for your life insurance till the day you die. And YOU GET NOTHING.


Are you seriously alleging that Costco doesn't share the death benefit they receive with the dead, after they die? SHOCKING!


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

I briefly skimmed over 500(of over 1000 I found) posts from members here including from the same guys posting in this thread, frantically ranting about exactly what I stated. The imposed race to the bottom for large commercial corporate lots.

@brendontw 
If your prices are what they have been paying, and that is what it takes to provide your hired help with a livable safe and healthy lifestyle, also providing you do ennumerate them enough, along with yourself and your company, it is my opinion you are doing something right.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Hydromaster said:


> think he's saying if you have a client that's well-off it's OK to price gouge them.


Talking about price gouging, you want to come pay that 7 bucks a pound for a wrap of asparagus for me where I live and Costco charges? I mean sheesh, it was just 12 months ago that same asparugus wrap was 2.79 a pound.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I wouldn’t know, I don’t shop or work at Costco.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

I was saying to you to please refrain from making assumptions on what I had not said or stated. From the little bit of homework I did in the past posts on this site, it does not seem that brendontw is out of line on what he could probably be asking. Or for that matter should be asking. Especially if his numbers work for him.

I also stated I would not be looking for large commercial lots. Why? We have been approached by nationals and a few through other aquaintences. There is no possible way to make it work for what they(corporations) wanted the job to be done for. And they cried over our bids. I mean, we could make it work if I threw 7.50 an hour at each hired hand, used beat to hell loaders and the such. And zero profit for the business. To each their own.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

jomama45 said:


> Are you seriously alleging that Costco doesn't share the death benefit they receive with the dead, after they die? SHOCKING!


if I could hit the laughing emoji, on the like button, a 2nd time, I wood


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Bud, he can ask whatever price he wants, it’s the race to the bottom remember...
you did the homework,,you read the posts,
just lay it all out there.

You advocate takeing advantage of a client because you have them over a barrel.
so how much are you going to charge ?

Yeah Bud ,I find it unethical to Take advantage of the situation, to price gouge because of their financial capabilities and the situation.

But you tell us,
What are the numbers?


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Personally I think the guy should’ve hand shoveled the entire parking lot at that rate. The shoveling at $150 an hour is the best ROI by far.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

rizzoa13 said:


> Personally I think the guy should've hand shoveled the entire parking lot at that rate. The shoveling at $150 an hour is the best ROI by far.


:laugh: WORD!!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ice-sage said:


> Fact of the matter is, the original poster absolutely deserves what he is asking. It is 2021. Not 1980. It is okay to be envious, jealousy on the other hand...


Sage, at what numbers does he not deserve what he's asking? $50k...$60k When is it considered "price gouging"?


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Ice-sage said:


> Wanna bet? I dare you.
> 
> These large vast companies make so much money and profit, what you see from the media and news and the SEC itself is misleading. These corps have extemely large hidden assets and securities and funds and trusts and money accounts outside the jurisdiction of the US.
> 
> Fun fact. These companies are so rolling in the dough, they can even afford to take out life insurance policies on every single employee(which they never divulge to the employees) and reap the benefits if you die in their employment wether you are at work or not. Even when you are no longer working for them, they are so filthy rich, they will still pay a massive discounted rate for your life insurance till the day you die. And YOU GET NOTHING.


Ok, dare taken. Not sure how you get a mill in daily sales from these numbers


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ice-sage said:


> Fact of the matter is, the original poster absolutely deserves what he is asking. It is 2021. Not 1980. It is okay to be envious, jealousy on the other hand...


How much snow and ice management do you perform?

Average snowfall per season?

How many trucks/pieces of equipment?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

rizzoa13 said:


> Personally I think the guy should've hand shoveled the entire parking lot at that rate. The shoveling at $150 an hour is the best ROI by far.


"Shovel slower, boys! Daddy's eyeing a new Hellcat!"


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What I'm wondering, since @Ice-sage continues to think he is the smartest guy in the room, is what experience does he have (especially recently) that backs up his statement of billing a Costco at $20k per 4" storm?

Because if it's possible, there are only 2 people in North America that know how to do that...him and CityTow. And I'm wondering why they aren't spreading their wisdom and experience to the rest of us schmucks. Instead they belittle us from behind their keyboards.

PS A fair amount of cross-threading occurring.

PPS My opinion still stands of the billing the OP performed.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> "Shovel slower, boys! Daddy's eyeing a new Hellcat!"


2nd PPP round is here, we'll try again...


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## sota (Jan 31, 2011)

WIPensFan said:


> I'm sorry but this is what I have a problem with the most. The tractors...seems pretty high to me. The shovelers... that's just outrageous. If you are offering these services, don't you kinda have to be prepared to service? No matter how rare an event? You don't own a snowblower?? Or a skid steer?? Or a plow truck?? Maybe I'm missing too much information on your business and how your service contracts are worded. I apologize if I'm jumping to a conclusion I shouldn't be.


Considering he performed the tasks contracted, at the agreed pricing, I'd say he was prepared. As for the actual pricing of equipment and manpower, again it's whatever the market will bear. I'm not sure about you, but around here getting people to go out and get paid $30/hr (cash, under the table mind you) to shovel is getting harder and harder. Teenagers and young adults are not interested in earning through work; they've been given everything already it seems. And if his employees are on the books, you should know there's a tremendous gov't related overhead that generates.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

sota said:


> Considering he performed the tasks contracted, at the agreed pricing, I'd say he was prepared. As for the actual pricing of equipment and manpower, again it's whatever the market will bear. I'm not sure about you, but around here getting people to go out and get paid $30/hr (cash, under the table mind you) to shovel is getting harder and harder. Teenagers and young adults are not interested in earning through work; they've been given everything already it seems. And if his employees are on the books, you should know there's a tremendous gov't related overhead that generates.


I'm of the understanding there was no agreed upon pricing, hence the thread to see if he's over charging. As far as pricing whatever the market will bear...just because people will pay $700 for insulin, doesn't mean they should have to. Just because people in Texas need energy, their bills shouldn't be $9k. If you get my drift?


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

WIPensFan said:


> I'm of the understanding there was no agreed upon pricing, hence the thread to see if he's over charging. As far as pricing whatever the market will bear...just because people will pay $700 for insulin, doesn't mean they should have to. Just because people in Texas need energy, their bills shouldn't be $9k. If you get my drift?





brendontw said:


> They all signed an agreement with hourly rates and ice melt per-bag rates. We don't do bulk down here for the most part.


Seems like the hourly rates and price for salt were agreed upon. I think the OP is worried that even though the prices were agreed upon, the management companies / property owners might find the expense to be very high since it's uncommon and the scope of work might have exceeded their expectations. Whether those expectations were warranted or not.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Seems like the hourly rates and price for salt were agreed upon. I think the OP is worried that even though the prices were agreed upon, the management companies / property owners might find the expense to be very high since it's uncommon and the scope of work might have exceeded their expectations. Whether those expectations were warranted or not.


Yes, but agreed upon when? Post storm? One day before? One week before? 2 months before? When I sent out contracts I had no idea what I was in for. As the season was a month away or more. I did bill according to how many inches fell, but the customer knew the base rate and basically how much would be charged based on how bad the storm was. I could not wait till after the storm or one day before to set my prices based on how bad the storm was. Oh, it's gonna be -5 and windy? I will charge you more. Oh, it's going to be wet and heavy? I will charge you more. Oh, it's going to happen or will have happened during a holiday? I will charge you double or triple. I didn't have that luxury. Do you see what I'm saying? Sorry if it doesn't make sense, but I'm barely awake.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

My opinion, if you are at the number you NEED to be at to recover all your costs and the headache/profit number you desire, and you are in line with the agreed upon hourly numbers, by all means send those invoices and get paid....if you believe there will be push back and there is any wiggle room in the numbers, push them as high as possible...then be ready to offer a slight discount when they receive the sticker shock.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

WIPensFan said:


> Yes, but agreed upon when? Post storm? One day before? One week before? 2 months before? When I sent out contracts I had no idea what I was in for. As the season was a month away or more. I did bill according to how many inches fell, but the customer knew the base rate and basically how much would be charged based on how bad the storm was. I could not wait till after the storm or one day before to set my prices based on how bad the storm was. Oh, it's gonna be -5 and windy? I will charge you more. Oh, it's going to be wet and heavy? I will charge you more. Oh, it's going to happen or will have happened during a holiday? I will charge you double or triple. I didn't have that luxury. Do you see what I'm saying? Sorry if it doesn't make sense, but I'm barely awake.


Understood. The OP hasn't specified to that extent. Would be interesting information. I can't think of a northern example that could be used as reference. Maybe the salt shortage a few years back? Wasn't a common occurrence up until that point. Lack of availability wasn't really in the contracts. We had been told of the coming price increasing back in August of that year and tried to adjust contracts accordingly, but still went in blind (at least I did).
Possibly the pandemic is another example. I'm sure there will be provisions for their occurrence in contracts going forward vs before where it was unheard of.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Understood. The OP hasn't specified to that extent. Would be interesting information. I can't think of a northern example that could be used as reference. Maybe the salt shortage a few years back? Wasn't a common occurrence up until that point. Lack of availability wasn't really in the contracts. We had been told of the coming price increasing back in August of that year and tried to adjust contracts accordingly, but still went in blind (at least I did).
> Possibly the pandemic is another example. I'm sure there will be provisions for their occurrence in contracts going forward vs before where it was unheard of.


Youngster...first salt shortage was '08.

Actually, we ran short in '94 as well.


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## STARSHIP (Dec 18, 2000)

Mudly said:


> Ok, dare taken. Not sure how you get a mill in daily sales from these numbers
> View attachment 214356


Roughly 1/2 a million per day. I've seen numbers around that amount in a couple of different places. Obviously it depends on store location and day of the week (I'm sure Saturday has a bigger $ than say a Tuesday). I also read a NET estimate of 50k on that 500k, but who knows what the actual number is.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ice-sage said:


> Talking about price gouging, you want to come pay that 7 bucks a pound for a wrap of asparagus for me where I live and Costco charges? I mean sheesh, it was just 12 months ago that same asparugus wrap was 2.79 a pound.


Maybe there was a freak snowstorm where the asspurgrass came from and the plower charged $500/hour/tractor and $250/hour/shoveler.

You don't seem to grasp how supply and demand truly works. On the one hand you say plowers shouldn't be getting 1980 pricing anymore (you're right) and on the other you state asspurgrass which is out of season in the Northern Hemisphere is not subject to the same market conditions of supply and demand.

PS What is an asspurgrass "wrap"? Mine comes in long stalks.


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## Mountain Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

When I first read this,I was OMG! But,reading the thread,from all the mostly great posts from contractors around the country,I have calmed down.Like the man said,many years ago-"Location,Location,Location!". If it is a 7-10 year event,if I was younger,and lived in that area,I would be finding and fixing up 2 of the old jeeps,with the 4 ft plows,that were specifically made for sidewalks,keep them in storage shed,and put out notices to all the plow contractors.I still even see them for sale out here,as most now use UTV's,ATV's. The jeeps would be more usable,getting to different locales. Anyway,back growing up in western MD,where snow and plowing was normal,I remember up until perhaps the early 80's,guys with trucks with plows would head to DC and Baltimore,whenevr a large snow event was coming to those areas,because rare in those places.Even the cities would hire them.Then gov regulations came in, and ruined such things. And made everybody's taxes higher.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

For example we have a member that does a lot of plumbing work. 
They have been busy thawing drain pipes because of this freaky cold spell and all of the snow.
I bet you his hourly rate stayed the same and if he buys another machine he’s hourly rates again will remain the same?

But but he has to buy all the snow equipment and polws e tc etc he should be reimbursed for his emergency expenditures. 

Another example
you bring your truck into a guy to have it fixed. He doesn’t have a $2000 scan tool but he’s going to charge you $2000 plus so he can buy the scan tool, so he can fix your truck.
Should you pay for your scan tool or you think that’s a cost of business?


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> For example we have a member that does a lot of plumbing work.
> They have been busy thawing drain pipes because of this freaky cold spell and all of the snow.
> I bet you his hourly rate stayed the same and if he buys another machine he's hourly rates again will remain the same?
> 
> ...


Are we talking unfreeze drain pipes in illinois or texas?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Edit

Yes


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## shawn_ (Jan 19, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> I believe the analogy works either way?


If I'm doing snow work in TX my price just tripled . There's not enough work to justify equipment plain and simple so when it does snow you will be higher then then national avg- I don't understand why this is a hard concept . You guys think he's robbing them , but in reality he's just doing his job at his worth & they NEED him . They might not want to pay that much BUT THEY NEED IT TO STAY OPEN. Plain and simple supply and demand


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

shawn_ said:


> If I'm doing snow work in TX my price just tripled . There's not enough work to justify equipment plain and simple so when it does snow you will be higher then then national avg- I don't understand why this is a hard concept . You guys think he's robbing them , but in reality he's just doing his job at his worth & they NEED him . They might not want to pay that much BUT THEY NEED IT TO STAY OPEN. Plain and simple supply and demand


 I believe there was an awful lot of drama.
Did the store even have power did the store have water because we didn't have even one of those it couldn't be opened so snow removal was moot.

I've seen how people drive in Texas ( lived in Lubbock )and when one snowflake hits the ground they all go in the ditch anyway so nobody could drive anywhere anyways .

Do you think they needed the whole lot plowed and the loading docks and everything cleaned out ?

Just asking because trucks weren't moving and the snow melted in a couple of days.
so why would a business want to pay $20,000 for something that's going to disappear in two days and won't be used?

Yeah I get some people think because of the scarcity of snow they can just run in there and take advantage of their client.
I just don't find it ethical that one day you can charge $60 an hour for your laborer and then the next day just because it snowed charge $200 for the same employee.

Just asking.


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## shawn_ (Jan 19, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> I believe there was an awful lot of drama.
> Did the store even have power did the store have water because we didn't have even one of those it couldn't be opened so snow removal was moot.
> 
> I've seen how people drive in Texas ( lived in Lubbock )and when one snowflake hits the ground they all go in the ditch anyway so nobody could drive anywhere anyways .
> ...


His price has been his price all along he stated

300$ for machine
150$ for shoveler

now if he just up-charged them for that storm yeah that's messed up..... u say people can't drive so what if he let it go only
Plows half a lot? A car pulls in (can't drive) crashed into something in the parking lot and had an injury . They sue (im from NJ ) so I automatically think the worst ..... he gets sued and his insurance gets banged all because someone is speculating the snow will be gone in a few days and the store isn't open. That don't mean the store don't have to be plowed the proper way. I don't know about you But if a business tells me not to plow or only plow have the parking lot I would NEVER service them.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Hydromaster said:


> I just don't find it ethical that one day you can charge $60 an hour for your laborer and then the next day just because it snowed charge $200 for the same employee.


Isn't that essentially a blizzard clause?
Or even just tiered pricing?
I thought those were pretty standard contract things?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

jonniesmooth said:


> Isn't that essentially a blizzard clause?
> Or even just tiered pricing?
> I thought those were pretty standard contract things?


Was it a blizzard?
one of the biggest hassle is to collect on a blizzard clause with a seasonal contract.
It was a one and done.
What contract?

It's not like the snow was going to stick around for months if it wasn't plowed.

But like I said earlier, you bill out your employee for let's say $60 an hour.
But,,, there is a "blizzard" overnight do you still bill out your employee at $60 an hour?

He could work more hours to clean up after the blizzard. But Because he is going to work more, 8 hours instead of 4 ,does his hourly rate go up or is it still at $60 an hr.?

And most blizzard clauses are worded wrong because a blizzard isn't necessarily related to snow depth.

This was what 4"?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

shawn_ said:


> His price has been his price all along he stated
> 
> 300$ for machine
> 150$ for shoveler
> ...


No the driver is still responsible to maintain control of the vehicle. the driver must be able to avoid or stop, otherwise they are not in control of the vehicle. it is not somebody else's responsibility.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> I just don't find it ethical that one day you can charge $60 an hour for your laborer and then the next day just because it snowed charge $200 for the same employee.


Labor rates for my employees can vary in the same day depending on what they are doing.

Is that ethical? Or is it just a certain difference in the rate that makes it unethical?



Hydromaster said:


> Did the store even have power did the store have water because we didn't have even one of those it couldn't be opened so snow removal was moot.


The OP is Okie, not Texas. We don't know if it was a store or factory or what. Doesn't really matter if they had power if they had a contract.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> one of the biggest hassle is to collect on a blizzard clause with a seasonal contract.


Never had a problem collecting in the past.



Hydromaster said:


> This was what 4"?


Still could have been a blizzard at 4".


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

OP: I vote send the bill. It is a relatively large number, for sure, but if the rate was agreed to before hand, let them dispute it if they're unhappy. If you want to charge them less because you feel bad, that is up to you. If you discount your rate in hopes of getting future storm work, you might be waiting a while.


Hydromaster said:


> For example we have a member that does a lot of plumbing work.
> They have been busy thawing drain pipes because of this freaky cold spell and all of the snow.
> I bet you his hourly rate stayed the same and if he buys another machine he's hourly rates again will remain the same?
> 
> ...


One of the plumbing companies I use for a sub (at regular rates) offers emergency services that include both an emergency service call fee, along with a higher rate. If someone is unwilling to pay the fee/rate, but wants the work done, it gets scheduled.

He has enough "emergency" work that he has a full time emergency service guy with a van. If it's a big job (or multiple emergencies, he may pull people from scheduled jobs to assist, and they all bill out at the higher rate.

Although the numbers OP is possibly billing are large, he agreed to provide emergency services at emergency service rates.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

the Suburbanite said:


> OP: I vote send the bill. It is a relatively large number, for sure, but if the rate was agreed to before hand, let them dispute it if they're unhappy. If you want to charge them less because you feel bad, that is up to you.


Agreed - it's not like _they _would feel obligated to pay extra if they were "undercharged"...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

the Suburbanite said:


> OP: I vote send the bill. It is a relatively large number, for sure, but if the rate was agreed to before hand, let them dispute it if they're unhappy. If you want to charge them less because you feel bad, that is up to you. If you discount your rate in hopes of getting future storm work, you might be waiting a while.
> 
> One of the plumbing companies I use for a sub (at regular rates) offers emergency services that include both an emergency service call fee, along with a higher rate. If someone is unwilling to pay the fee/rate, but wants the work done, it gets scheduled.
> 
> ...


I never liked those "emergency service rates".
I mean I had plenty of calls from great customers who wanted work done next week for whatever reason, and I'm on a two week job with all my people, but I go there or send people there without a special fee. I wish I could have jacked my prices like that. Especially snow removal on holidays. Oh well, landscapers just not that important I guess.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

This is a dangerous precedent we are setting in the U.S.. Natural disasters or pandemics happen and anyone can charge whatever they want or make up any rules they want, and we all just have to pay or abide by them. Y’all are good with it til it happens to you...


----------



## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

Hydromaster said:


> For example we have a member that does a lot of plumbing work.
> They have been busy thawing drain pipes because of this freaky cold spell and all of the snow.
> I bet you his hourly rate stayed the same and if he buys another machine he's hourly rates again will remain the same?
> 
> ...


if you know of a $2000 dollar code reader/scan tool please point it out.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> This is a dangerous precedent we are setting in the U.S.. Natural disasters or pandemics happen and anyone can charge whatever they want or make up any rules they want, and we all just have to pay or abide by them. Y'all are good with it til it happens to you...


Did you miss the part about him having a contract?

And already charging these rates for a couple events this past season??


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Did you miss the part about him having a contract?
> 
> And already charging these rates for a couple events this past season??


I guess I did. My apologies


----------



## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

WIPensFan said:


> This is a dangerous precedent we are setting in the U.S.. Natural disasters or pandemics happen and anyone can charge whatever they want or make up any rules they want, and we all just have to pay or abide by them. Y'all are good with it til it happens to you...


not just in your country, every time big storm same same.
I posted earlier and see it was 84ed in it I pointed out what is your business model?
if the customers don't trust you or feel ripped off you will get away with it once and that doesn't make a sustainable business.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I guess we have come to the conclusion that he actually does this for his clients...they have an agreed upon contract, they are ok with it, and he made mad bank for 10” of snow.
I think we are golden here considering he hasn’t come back and is probably at the bank right now putting gold bars in his deposit boxes.:usflagayup


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

WIPensFan said:


> I guess we have come to the conclusion that he actually does this for his clients...they have an agreed upon contract, they are ok with it, and he made mad bank for 10" of snow.
> I think we are golden here considering he hasn't come back and is probably at the bank right now putting gold bars in his deposit boxes.:usflagayup


Ok, I'll jump on board, ...

Yea. A but.

But then the op asked
Quoting the op
"Should a McDonalds plowed and salted twice with a combined 8-10" of snow be around $1500? or $300? Or $2500?"

if he's throwing out $1500 , he should have made his margins and some,,,at that number
What does that make $2500?


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Hydromaster said:


> Was it a blizzard?
> one of the biggest hassle is to collect on a blizzard clause with a seasonal contract.
> It was a one and done.
> What contract?
> ...


I believe it was 10" and they worked during the storm so likely 4 and 4 and 2 or something like that. 
I don't use a blizzard clause,or tiered pricing for the reasons you bring up.
I like time as an indicator of snow quantity. 
And a minimum charge.


----------



## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Hydromaster said:


> Ok, I'll jump on board, ...
> 
> Yea. A but.
> 
> ...


Should one hour of Search and Rescue helicopter time cost the same as a seat (or two) of chopper time sight seeing over the Grand Canyon?


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Why does a joy ride come with a pilot, co pilot 2-3 rescuers And medical support?
I never saw any of those guys when we went Hellie skiing ....
And their rates were the same regardless of the snow pack. Lol

The cost to operate the chopper wouldn’t change much depending location.

It’s much like the cost of operating a plow truck or the cost of a shoveler.
Same work different location.


If he charges McDonald’s $2500 instead
Of $1500 did he pay his employees twice as much?
Did it Magically cost twice as much to operate a plow truck per hr?
I think the $1500 is on the “high” side but then just arbitrarily doubling it?

Not Saying I’ve never been on Off base before but???


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Update: Sent out $75k with around 20 invoices on Tuesday or Wednesday of last week. Had one complaint by a customer who always complains. No complaints from anyone else.


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Pricing was agreed upon prior to the event. They all filled out a form authorizing us to mobilize for those listed rates. And yes we did double the pay for all of our employees who worked the storm.


----------



## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Kinport said:


> This thread and the story I linked have got me seriously considering chasing freak snowstorms


I do it. This will be my 3rd winter. So far we've been to Texas, Arkansas, Illinois, New York, Vermont, and North Carolina.

Generally, it's a total Charlie Foxtrot. A couple companies I've gone for have their act together. Some of these places have seen more snow in 24 hours than they see in a decade. Those are the ones that are a total riot.

All hourly work. Guaranteed hour minimum per unit before we leave. Paid travel, personnel expenses, and most of the time paid accommodations. Take enough fuel to get there, home, and run 3 days without stopping. Take enough people that everyone gets 8 hours off every 24 of working.

Until you've done it a few times you'll probably wonder if it's really worth it. It's more of a thrill than a need for me. My guys love the hours and don't mind the travel.

Just my $.02.


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

That’s good man it wasn’t stated in the op that the rates were authorized before hand. No complaints is a far cry from getting that money in your bank account though and I sincerely hope you collect it all.


----------



## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I do it. This will be my 3rd winter. So far we've been to Texas, Arkansas, Illinois, New York, Vermont, and North Carolina.
> 
> Generally, it's a total Charlie Foxtrot. A couple companies I've gone for have their act together. Some of these places have seen more snow in 24 hours than they see in a decade. Those are the ones that are a total riot.
> 
> ...


So many questions...do you still have any accounts in your hometown or do you just chase the big storms around the country? What equipment do you guys take and how do you get it there? Trucks and plows? Loaders and pushers? I'm assuming your doing work at mostly retail/restaurant chains and that your contracted by some national service provider(s)?


----------



## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Kinport said:


> So many questions...do you still have any accounts in your hometown or do you just chase the big storms around the country? What equipment do you guys take and how do you get it there? Trucks and plows? Loaders and pushers? I'm assuming your doing work at mostly retail/restaurant chains and that your contracted by some national service provider(s)?


Yes, I still have a small handful of accounts locally. They're mostly tied to our minimal summer maintenance work. I've got a couple skids and couple trucks subbed to another contractor for a large online retailer as well.

Trucks and skid steers. Trucks have v plows/wings, skid steers have either Boss skid blades with wings or Arctic Sectionals. I've got a thunder creek trailer that goes behind one truck. We built a bracket that we can set a Boss V on top of the tanks and lock it in. Gooseneck/bumper pulls for machines and plows.

No set account type. Just depends on where we go. Rates aren't probably what you'd expect, and they're NOTHING like what's been talked about by the OP in this thread.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I loves me some threads where the real story leaks out over a few pages and then pertinent information is given after what...a week and a half?? I don’t even know why he did this thread other than to flex on how much he got away with charging desperate people in need...MERICA!!:usflag:


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

The real story leaks out? What are you referring to?


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

If you’re not sure why I created the thread, perhaps you should read the title where it asks “reasonable?”.

We’re in the south and plow like this once every 10 years. I want to make sure we are fair and reasonable even though we already had the pricing in agreement to begin with since the storm was an anomaly. Stop being so cynical.


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

I appreciate everyone’s feedback. The most thorough posts in the threads led me to believe the pricing was fair so we proceeded to submit the invoices as calculated and all of the invoices are in process to be paid. Thank you for the help to those who were helpful.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> I loves me some threads where the real story leaks out over a few pages and then pertinent information is given after what...a week and a half?? I don't even know why he did this thread other than to flex on how much he got away with charging desperate people in need...MERICA!!:usflag:


What are you referring to?


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

brendontw said:


> I appreciate everyone's feedback. The most thorough posts in the threads led me to believe the pricing was fair so we proceeded to submit the invoices as calculated and all of the invoices are in process to be paid. Thank you for the help to those who were helpful.


You did fine. These customers won't think twice about you if something went wrong and needed to come after you for a slip and fall etc... I've also been leery on some billing before as it seemed like alot and we do this religiously. Make your money when you can!

And don't listen to 75% of people on the interweb as most are full of bs...

You provided a agreed upon service and price, done deal. I'm sure we can all find crazier prices someone paid for something or a service that would make everyone say OMG...


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Which 75%?


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Which 75%?


Yes


----------



## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Which 75%?


why, you feeling self-conscience?


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

plow4beer said:


> why, you feeling self-conscience?


Yes


----------



## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Which 75%?


The 75% that dont make a profit?


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mudly said:


> The 75% that dont make a profit?


What's that?


----------



## Mountain Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

WIPensFan said:


> I loves me some threads where the real story leaks out over a few pages and then pertinent information is given after what...a week and a half?? I don't even know why he did this thread other than to flex on how much he got away with charging desperate people in need...MERICA!!:usflag:


Funny,I saw nothing of desperate people in need,I saw businesses that wanted to remain open and keep overcharging people.


----------



## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Randall Ave said:


> What's that?


The amount of liquidity you have after your a procurment is complete and responsibilities are handled.


----------



## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Mudly said:


> The amount of liquidity you have after your a procurment is complete and responsibilities are handled.


liquidity? like a 12 pack?


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

brendontw said:


> If you're not sure why I created the thread, perhaps you should read the title where it asks "reasonable?".
> 
> We're in the south and plow like this once every 10 years. I want to make sure we are fair and reasonable even though we already had the pricing in agreement to begin with since the storm was an anomaly. Stop being so cynical.


Why does it matter what we think if you already had pricing in place? For someone who keeps posting about how rarely you get snow or plow or bill out for these type of events, you seem to have handled it quite well. As in you knew exactly what you were doing. Congratulations, if you did the work and they agreed to your price, you should get paid for your services.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mountain Bob said:


> Funny,I saw nothing of desperate people in need,I saw businesses that wanted to remain open and keep overcharging people.


Cool


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What are you referring to?


What I'm referring to is


brendontw said:


> If you're not sure why I created the thread, perhaps you should read the title where it asks "reasonable?".
> 
> We're in the south and plow like this once every 10 years. I want to make sure we are fair and reasonable even though we already had the pricing in agreement to begin with since the storm was an anomaly. Stop being so cynical.


Bro, you asked and I told you what I thought... I thought you ripped off your customers. Plain and simple. If you don't want opinions, don't ask for them.


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

WIPensFan said:


> Why does it matter what we think if you already had pricing in place? For someone who keeps posting about how rarely you get snow or plow or bill out for these type of events, you seem to have handled it quite well. As in you knew exactly what you were doing. Congratulations, if you did the work and they agreed to your price, you should get paid for your services.


It matters because most of the guys here are more familiar with these types of events than I am. Our rates have been fine with no complaints for 2-3 inch storms. But the invoice totals have been somewhat small too in comparison. So the reason I asked is to make sure I was in a fair ballpark for a higher volume of man hours as to not screw our customers or have to fight a bunch of complaints on invoices. If you think it doesn't matter, why even reply?


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

WIPensFan said:


> What I'm referring to is
> 
> Bro, you asked and I told you what I thought... I thought you ripped off your customers. Plain and simple. If you don't want opinions, don't ask for them.


I must have missed your post because I saw nothing from you with feedback on my original question.


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

WIPensFan said:


> I loves me some threads where the real story leaks out over a few pages and then pertinent information is given after what...a week and a half?? I don't even know why he did this thread other than to flex on how much he got away with charging desperate people in need...MERICA!!:usflag:


Is this the valuable helpful opinion I was supposed to be looking for? You said "bro, you asked" ... I don't see an answer to anything I asked in your reply here.


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

WIPensFan said:


> What I'm referring to is
> 
> Bro, you asked and I told you what I thought... I thought you ripped off your customers. Plain and simple. If you don't want opinions, don't ask for them.


Asked what you were referring to about story leaking out. Still looking for what you're referring to because the thing you quoted doesn't say anything about that.


----------



## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

the Suburbanite said:


> liquidity? like a 12 pack?


A case of 12 packs if youre good


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What are you referring to?


I would like the original post to describe the complete situation. Not more info as the thread drags on. That's all.


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

Sorry for not being as perfect as you would have liked. Still confused as to why you continue posting on a thread that you hate so much lol.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mountain Bob said:


> Funny,I saw nothing of desperate people in need,I saw businesses that wanted to remain open and keep overcharging people.


This is what I'm saying. 
Start of the pandemic, everybody buying out toilet paper, hand sanitizer, sani-wipes, paper towels and packs of water. I don't want stores charging me more for these products because they are in low supply and people are desperate for them...
Electric companies in Texas charging people $9-$18k on there electric bills!!
Drug companies charging $700 for insulin because people have to have it to live.
Supply and demand right???
No, this is not ok with me. 
Some of you are agreeing with these principles.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

brendontw said:


> It matters because most of the guys here are more familiar with these types of events than I am. Our rates have been fine with no complaints for 2-3 inch storms. But the invoice totals have been somewhat small too in comparison. So the reason I asked is to make sure I was in a fair ballpark for a higher volume of man hours as to not screw our customers or have to fight a bunch of complaints on invoices. If you think it doesn't matter, why even reply?


I mean if you're doing 2-3" events, you should easily know how to fairly bill for 10" split into removal 2-3 times. No?


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

brendontw said:


> Sorry for not being as perfect as you would have liked. Still confused as to why you continue posting on a thread that you hate so much lol.


Never said I hated it. Just don't think you were being genuine in your reasoning for posting the way you did. You need to prepare for opinions contrary to your own.
Heck, your next post I might totally agree with.


----------



## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

WIPensFan said:


> This is what I'm saying.
> Start of the pandemic, everybody buying out toilet paper, hand sanitizer, sani-wipes, paper towels and packs of water. I don't want stores charging me more for these products because they are in low supply and people are desperate for them...
> Electric companies in Texas charging people $9-$18k on there electric bills!!
> Drug companies charging $700 for insulin because people have to have it to live.
> ...


All of the examples you listed above are for goods and consumables. If no store within 100 miles of you sold toilet paper, and you talked one of them into getting you some, you would have to expect to pay a premium.

OP offered a service that few others in his area offered because NOONE EVER NEEDS IT. While OP wasn't set up for optimal efficiency, he/they got it done for multiple locations. Terms were agreed to before work started.

If someone wanted to hire me to build ice-castles and was willing to pay me $300/hr despite having no experience in it, am I obligated to counter at $75/man hour because that's what good residential interior trimmers are getting paid in my area?

FWIW, I'd guess OP was sincere in posting, and was nervous about dropping such large invoices on his customers. The further clarification of the situation was primarily in response to criticisms and questions directed at him.

Big numbers? Yes. Unethical gouging? No. The principle I am agreeing with is: FIND A NICHE AND DELIVER.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

the Suburbanite said:


> All of the examples you listed above are for goods and consumables. If no store within 100 miles of you sold toilet paper, and you talked one of them into getting you some, you would have to expect to pay a premium.
> 
> OP offered a service that few others in his area offered because NOONE EVER NEEDS IT. While OP wasn't set up for optimal efficiency, he/they got it done for multiple locations. Terms were agreed to before work started.
> 
> ...


I disagree.


----------



## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

WIPensFan said:


> I disagree.


Ok


----------



## LandscapeBusinessAcademy (Sep 18, 2020)

I feel your prices are more than fair. You have labor, maintenance, insurance, employees and your time. I charge $1800 per ton (No joke).
Maintaining a plow truck, especially a 250/2500 and up is very expensive.
Don't doubt your prices, you know what is right get money


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> Electric companies in Texas charging people $9-$18k on there electric bills!!


Didn't those people sign up for adjustable electric rates or flex rates or something? Just like the old adjustable rate mortgages fools signed up for.

But again, I'm confused. Many people were able to answer his questions given the initial info. I was one of them. Yes, others asked questions and the OP clarified. But there was more than enough info in his first post to give an answer.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Yes, I still have a small handful of accounts locally. They're mostly tied to our minimal summer maintenance work. I've got a couple skids and couple trucks subbed to another contractor for a large online retailer as well.


Not working for the NSP's anymore?

Running out of local work?


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not working for the NSP's anymore?
> 
> Running out of local work?


If he's storm chasing in multiple states he's working for Brightview.


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Didn't those people sign up for adjustable electric rates or flex rates or something? Just like the old adjustable rate mortgages fools signed up for.
> 
> But again, I'm confused. Many people were able to answer his questions given the initial info. I was one of them. Yes, others asked questions and the OP clarified. But there was more than enough info in his first post to give an answer.


Now I'm confused.
I feel he should have given more information right away. It's ok for me to disagree with him on this...no? I have to conform??


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> I feel he should have given more information right away.


I feel with my fingers.

I think with my mind.



WIPensFan said:


> It's ok for me to disagree with him on this...no?


No



WIPensFan said:


> I have to conform??


Yes


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I feel with my fingers.
> 
> I think with my mind.
> 
> ...


LOL.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I feel with my fingers.


I thought you used them to count?


----------



## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Yes


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Western1 said:


> Yes


I think I need to start answer in these simplest of terms.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> I think I need to start answer in these simplest of terms.


Agreed


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

@brendontw start another thread somewhere so I can totally agree with you and have your back!


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

I think a bit of video would've cleared everything up


----------



## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not working for the NSP's anymore?
> 
> Running out of local work?


All of our local work is direct contract with the exception of one site.

Not running out. Downsized because I didn't want to live in Wooster anymore



Luther said:


> If he's storm chasing in multiple states he's working for Brightview.


Incorrect.


----------



## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Agreed


Yes


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I think a bit of video would've cleared everything up


No doubt...


----------



## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Hydromaster said:


> You advocate takeing advantage of a client because you have them over a barrel.
> so how much are you going to charge ?
> 
> Yeah Bud ,I find it unethical to Take advantage of the situation, to price gouge because of their financial capabilities and the situation.


Again, for the second time in this thread, do not assume and then print words that make it look like I said something which I did not say, and misconstrue it completely to fit your agenda.

As can be seen from the original poster @brendontw, many of you with your other worldly wisdom never even apparently read his initial posts and did the same thing you did, @Hydromaster.
Quite glad the original poster sifted through the chaff and made a great descision of his own.

Looks like the original poster came back and was gracious enough to let it be known he did not take the advice 98% of you other "business dudes" were offering, and berating him at the same time.

I am happy to hear all worked out for the best @brendontw.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

K


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

I should really consider incorporating my 'other worldly wisdom' into my screen name.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I should really consider incorporating my other worldly wisdom into my screen name.


Such as?


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Such as?


Sage is taken already. So I'll have to keep thinking on it. Figured it would come easy with all this wisdom but it's proving difficult.


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Such as?


Got it. I'll go with Infinite Contracting Inc.... stick with the numbers theme.


----------



## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I should really consider incorporating my 'other worldly wisdom' into my screen name.


i beat you to it


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Mudly said:


> i beat you to it


Haha, you win @Mudly


----------



## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

Stick to the topic


----------



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> Stick to the topic


This pretty much done now yeah?


----------



## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Yes. Insert fork


----------



## brendontw (May 12, 2020)

All invoices were paid.


----------



## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

brendontw said:


> All invoices were paid.


Very cool. I'm assuming that it was invoices like the ones you sent that are the reasoning behind the email that I got today from a nationwide trucking company who's terminal we service
















Basically, no more plowing this year, and moving forward we'll only be able to plow after management requests it . Was always at our discretion before. I'm guessing they may have overspent on snow removal this year.


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Kinport said:


> Very cool. I'm assuming that it was invoices like the ones you sent that are the reasoning behind the email that I got today from a nationwide trucking company who's terminal we service
> View attachment 215298
> 
> View attachment 215299
> ...


So, the trucking terminal is going to call around for the lowest bidder in the middle of a storm every time it snows? Thats very fiscally responsible and it can't see any way that'll go badly for them.


----------



## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Not to mention delay in service


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

cwren2472 said:


> So, the trucking terminal is going to call around for the lowest bidder in the middle of a storm every time it snows? Thats very fiscally responsible and it can't see any way that'll go badly for them.


In bullet point one it says 'prior to the storm' but I doubt this will be done properly. I would think these managers / supervisors have enough to worry about in the logistics game that asking them to be weather watchers is going to end badly.


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> In bullet point one it says 'prior to the storm' but I doubt this will be done properly. I would think these managers / supervisors have enough to worry about in the logistics game that asking them to be weather watchers is going to end badly.


"Hey, I heard it's going to snow_ tomorrow_. We can't have tractors stranded and blocking the terminals, entrance, road,... So I'm going to be first on your list, right? And at 10% less than last year, right?"

That sounds like a great negotiating stance.


----------



## SilverPine (Dec 7, 2018)

From a liability standpoint, sounds like a nightmare.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> In bullet point one it says 'prior to the storm' but I doubt this will be done properly. I would think these managers / supervisors have enough to worry about in the logistics game that asking them to be weather watchers is going to end badly.


Some...not necessarily all...have brains and as good old Americans will figure out a workaround when idiot accountants (or politicians) institute this kind of crap.

I could be wrong, but I would also guess they might be bonused on how well they do as a terminal...and losing time or damaging trucks because of snow and ice will make that happen.

Accountants, CFO's, politicians contrary to popular opinion are not the smartest people in the room.

My accountant regularly shows me how much I am spending on a piece of equipment (a good thing). He points it out and depending on what it is, I say: do you know how much revenue that piece of equipment generates? His reply: No, just making sure you're aware of it. I spent a fair amount on my 544H this past year, but it loads salt. Without it, I can't load salt. He understands that.


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

cwren2472 said:


> "Hey, I heard it's going to snow_ tomorrow_. We can't have tractors stranded and blocking the terminals, entrance, road,... So I'm going to be first on your list, right? And at 10% less than last year, right?"
> 
> That sounds like a great negotiating stance.


Exactly, not a very smart idea to try and strong arm the people that keep you open during winter weather events. @Kinport can you possibly sell them on a seasonal contract? Salt included?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SilverPine said:


> From a common sense standpoint, sounds like a nightmare.


Fixed it for you.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Accountants, CFO's, politicians contrary to popular opinion are not the smartest people in the room.


Don't say that too loudly - she can hear you!



Mark Oomkes said:


> My accountant regularly shows me how much I am spending on a piece of equipment (a good thing). He points it out and depending on what it is, I say: do you know how much revenue that piece of equipment generates? His reply: No, just making sure you're aware of it. I spent a fair amount on my 544H this past year, but it loads salt. Without it, I can't load salt. He understands that.


The CFO here keep a watchful eye as well. And that's a good thing, it's one more voice of reason as an added layer of protection. Makes me think my business plan through before we act on something. If I can defend or make the case with her, then chances are I'm on the right track.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

How the hell can you plan for this particular account?!? I mean, depending on how large it is and how much time/materials it takes and equipment and bodies it will take “if” it needs to be done, you could have a lot of $$$ just sitting if they choose not to have service done. And, I’m guessing they will only want service performed when larger amounts of snow and or ice are forecast, which makes it even worse to plan for. Losing proposition for you it seems.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

GMC Driver said:


> Don't say that too loudly - she can hear you!
> 
> The CFO here keep a watchful eye as well. And that's a good thing, it's one more voice of reason as an added layer of protection. Makes me think my business plan through before we act on something. If I can defend or make the case with her, then chances are I'm on the right track.


Are Amy and Wendy related?


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Exactly, not a very smart idea to try and strong arm the people that keep you open during winter weather events. @Kinport can you possibly sell them on a seasonal contract? Salt included?


Somewhere in the email it mentions the new policies only apply to for the remainder of the current contract (the contracts expire in August). I'm guessing they ran out of snow removal money for 20-21, and now snow removal will only happen when it's absolutely necessary. Coincidently, this company also has several branches in Texas, Oklahoma, and Colorado. Well, if you have 6-7 terminals that all get nailed by a generational storm and you've gotta pay the prices talked about in this thread(not a bash on OP, get that cash) it makes sense that their over-budget this year and looking to stop the bleeding.

As far as converting to a seasonal, it might work but honestly I think I make more money going per push with this one. Hopefully its business as usual next season. If they persist with the nonsensical preapprovals/paperwork/etc we'll up the price to reflect the extra work. Then I imagine they'll go with someone else and I'll let them deal with the headaches.

Unfortunately, they are ripe for hiring an NSP after a year like this. The suits up top see the budget spreadsheets, see all the red surrounding snow removal after a heavy winter, and suddenly those "promises" the NSP makes about standard monthly payments start looking real appealing. Hoping they don't go that route.


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## 97BlackDiesel (Dec 2, 2016)

Kinport said:


> Very cool. I'm assuming that it was invoices like the ones you sent that are the reasoning behind the email that I got today from a nationwide trucking company who's terminal we service
> View attachment 215298
> 
> View attachment 215299
> ...


I love when companies do that. Lost two places like that this year. Both were customers for the last 3 years then all of a sudden it snowed for once.


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## mnlawns (Sep 19, 2018)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I do it. This will be my 3rd winter. So far we've been to Texas, Arkansas, Illinois, New York, Vermont, and North Carolina.
> 
> Generally, it's a total Charlie Foxtrot. A couple companies I've gone for have their act together. Some of these places have seen more snow in 24 hours than they see in a decade. Those are the ones that are a total riot.
> 
> ...


Can you dm me details on how you did the travel plowing? We're thinking of heading south for this weeks storm


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)




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