# Contract partial refund



## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

Had something happen early Monday morning, would like some feedback from other contractors. We met snowfall threshold 3” around 2:30am- there was about .25” of ice underneath which made for a slow go. I got a nasty gram at 8am- “I’ve already plowed- we should part ways.” At which point I was on his road. 
I sent him a cancellation notice with breakdown for trips made with refund balance, he tried to strong arm me into a full refund, told me he would sue me, call the AG’s and BBB. I told him he may want to re-read the contract he signed, and to go ahead and have his lawyer reach out. 
Last night, he emails me saying he would like to finish out the season with me.
Glad I’m the child of an attorney and know how to cover my ass. My contract doesn’t make guarantees on times. It addresses acknowledgement that we try to service everyone by 7am, but that extreme weather can make travel difficult, and that plowing will continue. 
It also states “no refunds will be given for unused time or services set forth by this agreement.” 
So, I feel like I’m being reasonable by giving him a partial refund. 
Do I need to be worried about him escalating this to a lawsuit? I don’t have time for this ****. TIA


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## sota (Jan 31, 2011)

I guess you need to run the hassle and financial loss equation on this one. if you gave him a full refund and cancel the contract out right, how much would you be out? Is it worth that to not have to worry about this client ever again acting the way he does?


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Drop them. Any sniff of a unreasonable complaint or mention of lawyers or suits---> see yaa.

I don't guarantee any times because weather and snow has no set time. 

We do take down and state on the contract their "Open for business Time" when the business opens and make the best efforts to have a pass thru so they can drive in.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

If the customer is flipping out the first event, and threatening lawsuit. Get paid something for your time, and drop them. That's what I would do.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

wave goodbye in your rear view mirror!!!!!!!!!! waiting for the outcome


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DarkHorse said:


> It also states "no refunds will be given for unused time or services set forth by this agreement."


Why wouldn't you refund what you haven't earned?

We had some AC claim we had only done his driveway twice, when all his neighbors had been done far more. We know we did it more than he claimed but sent him a partial refund towards the end of the season.

Put yourself in his shoes...would you want to pay in full for something you didn't receive in full?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Don't sweat it, he will be a thorn in your side. Makes life miserable dump him. Make your Dad aware of it in case he try's to get slick.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

DarkHorse said:


> Had something happen early Monday morning, would like some feedback from other contractors. We met snowfall threshold 3" around 2:30am- there was about .25" of ice underneath which made for a slow go. I got a nasty gram at 8am- "I've already plowed- we should part ways." At which point I was on his road.
> I sent him a cancellation notice with breakdown for trips made with refund balance, he tried to strong arm me into a full refund, told me he would sue me, call the AG's and BBB. I told him he may want to re-read the contract he signed, and to go ahead and have his lawyer reach out.
> Last night, he emails me saying he would like to finish out the season with me.
> Glad I'm the child of an attorney and know how to cover my ass. My contract doesn't make guarantees on times. It addresses acknowledgement that we try to service everyone by 7am, but that extreme weather can make travel difficult, and that plowing will continue.
> ...


Offer him a partial refund-being fair to yourself-IF he signs a release...best way to cover yourself. Use the cash back as a motivation to get his misery out of your life.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

I agree with the others. He’s a problem child, drop his service and give him a partial refund. Tell him to have a nice day and move on.


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Why wouldn't you refund what you haven't earned?
> 
> We had some AC claim we had only done his driveway twice, when all his neighbors had been done far more. We know we did it more than he claimed but sent him a partial refund towards the end of the season.
> 
> Put yourself in his shoes...would you want to pay in full for something you didn't receive in full?


As I said, it was a partial refund based on trips already made. Not sure why you're jumping to conclusions.


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

FredG said:


> Don't sweat it, he will be a thorn in your side. Makes life miserable dump him. Make your Dad aware of it in case he try's to get slick.


I handle my own ****. This is my business, not Daddy's.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DarkHorse said:


> As I said, it was a partial refund based on trips already made. Not sure why you're jumping to conclusions.


I was basing my comment on what you posted your contract states.



DarkHorse said:


> "no refunds will be given for unused time or services set forth by this agreement."


I'm not jumping to any conclusions.



DarkHorse said:


> I handle my own ****. This is my business, not Daddy's.


Who is this directed at?


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

Randall Ave said:


> If the customer is flipping out the first event, and threatening lawsuit. Get paid something for your time, and drop them. That's what I would do.


Agreed. I keep checks in the truck for the first few trips just for those kinds of clients. I call it #ThePurge lol


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Who is this directed at?


Fred.

I think Darkhorse was getting a bit defensive


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was basing my comment on what you posted your contract states.
> 
> I'm not jumping to any conclusions.
> 
> Who is this directed at?


If you DONT stipulate a stance on refunds and you only have threshold meeting snow 6x, there will inevitably be someone at the end of the year who thinks that because you "base a contract price on an average amount of trips" that you owe them money.
I was raised by a lawyer. I cover my ass. 
Never had anyone balk at my contracts because it's spelled out clearly. If it's not, then you leave room for lawsuits.


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

Luther said:


> Fred.
> 
> I think Darkhorse was getting a bit defensive


Why would you tell me to "let my dad know in case he tries to get slick"
Ignorant comment.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DarkHorse said:


> Why would you tell me to "let my dad know in case he tries to get slick"
> Ignorant comment.


You need to lay off the caffeine.


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## gcbailey (Jan 26, 2014)

DarkHorse said:


> Why would you tell me to "let my dad know in case he tries to get slick"
> Ignorant comment.


You said your father is a lawyer.... He was implying if your client threatened legal action, get your father involved since he is a "lawyer".... I take care of my own business too but I still have a lawyer, accountant, etc.... They get paid to take care of my business.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DarkHorse said:


> If you DONT stipulate a stance on refunds and you only have threshold meeting snow 6x, there will inevitably be someone at the end of the year who thinks that because you "base a contract price on an average amount of trips" that you owe them money.
> I was raised by a lawyer. I cover my ass.
> Never had anyone balk at my contracts because it's spelled out clearly. If it's not, then you leave room for lawsuits.


So now you're violating your own contract.

YOUR contract states no refunds, but you're giving him one.

I may or may not have given him a full refund if I had only done it once. Probably not.

Strange that you are so concerned about a refund policy but then you also have a clause stating you try to service everyone by 7 but you have zero control over the weather. You're in Rochester, you should know that lake effect could start at 5 and dump 3" by 7 with no problem.

I don't have any time frames in my contracts and refuse to provide one.

My refund policy states they owe all monies for services provided until the contract end date or separation date.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

A) If contract states no refunds that's at your discretion , can you send a photo of the contract?
B) If you do supply a refund, you should structure it based on time you have spent there, as well as take in to consideration you may take a storm or two to replace his contract. If you lose out on a storm or two before you replace his contract bill him for time/money loss as well
C) you can not just refund based on one plow or everyone will want money back if you only plow a couple times over the winter m
D) SEASONAL rates is just that 
So much money based on the season no matter how much it snows 
Would need to see the contract to give all of my thoughts but based on what you said . This would never go to court . I've dealt with worse clients . It's not just court though. Word of mouth and social media is ten Times worse. What is this person really like is he going to make you lose other clients 

Sometimes better to bite your tongue offer a refund and move along.

Your never going to be able to satisfy EVERYONE

EVERYONE THINKS THEY SHOULD BE PLOWED FIRST. When I sign contracts, I have people who want me to come at a certain time..I explain to them I have a ROUTE I will be here between this time and this time .
I give myself a 3 hour window..some storms I might do my full route in 4 hours some might be 6 .


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

DarkHorse said:


> I handle my own ****. This is my business, not Daddy's.


 Listen Son, If the client gets slick and you end up going to court you going without a attorney?????? Oh I forgot your the Son of a attorney so your qualified and don't need one.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

let's stick to the topic, enough with the uncalled for back and forth and the unwarranted attacks, etc.


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

Reach out / Search from the last poor Guy/ LAW suits who did his last yrs. Work and then some !


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

DarkHorse said:


> If you DONT stipulate a stance on refunds and you only have threshold meeting snow 6x, there will inevitably be someone at the end of the year who thinks that because you "base a contract price on an average amount of trips" that you owe them money.
> I was raised by a lawyer. I cover my ass.
> Never had anyone balk at my contracts because it's spelled out clearly. If it's not, then you leave room for lawsuits.


 You don't possibly think that the rest of us Contractors does not have a attorney involved with a snow and ice contract. Do you?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

My Boy in Webster reported to me there was 1.5'' of sleet.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

I would consider dropping them.


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

gcbailey said:


> You said your father is a lawyer.... He was implying if your client threatened legal action, get your father involved since he is a "lawyer".... I take care of my own business too but I still have a lawyer, accountant, etc.... They get paid to take care of my business.


I didn't say my father. I said I'm the child of an attorney..... which is my mother. Apparently you need to brush up on your reading comprehension. Lol


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

FredG said:


> Listen Son, If the client gets slick and you end up going to court you going without a attorney?????? Oh I forgot your the Son of a attorney so your qualified and don't need one.


I'm a woman and my lawyer parent is my mother, so.... wrong on both assumptions.


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

FredG said:


> My Boy in Webster reported to me there was 1.5'' of sleet.


There was. It was nasty. My clients are south of Webster, but there was a thick sheet of ice and snow on top. It was an ice rink. Made for a slow go even though I started early.


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

DarkHorse said:


> There was. It was nasty. My clients are south of Webster, but there was a thick sheet of ice and snow on top. It was an ice rink. Made for a slow go even though I started early.





FredG said:


> You don't possibly think that the rest of us Contractors does not have a attorney involved with a snow and ice contract. Do you?


Didn't insinuate that, slick.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

DarkHorse said:


> Didn't insinuate that, slick.


enough, time to move on and back to the discussion


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

sota said:


> I guess you need to run the hassle and financial loss equation on this one. if you gave him a full refund and cancel the contract out right, how much would you be out? Is it worth that to not have to worry about this client ever again acting the way he does?


Thank you. I decided to give him the three strikes option. At the next unreasonable outburst, it will be his last, at which time I will cut sling load. Always the early season purge....


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## DarkHorse (Dec 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So now you're violating your own contract.
> 
> YOUR contract states no refunds, but you're giving him one.
> 
> ...


Just trying to be fair give. That it's the beginning of the season and I don't want the headache.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

DarkHorse said:


> I'm a woman and my lawyer parent is my mother, so.... wrong on both assumptions.


 Oh sorry, typically Women don't live a snow and ice life style. Good for you I'm all for it. Good Luck


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Pretty sure I wouldn't want you as my contractor, way too much attitude.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

DarkHorse said:


> Had something happen early Monday morning, would like some feedback from other contractors. We met snowfall threshold 3" around 2:30am- there was about .25" of ice underneath which made for a slow go. I got a nasty gram at 8am- "I've already plowed- we should part ways." At which point I was on his road.
> I sent him a cancellation notice with breakdown for trips made with refund balance, he tried to strong arm me into a full refund, told me he would sue me, call the AG's and BBB. I told him he may want to re-read the contract he signed, and to go ahead and have his lawyer reach out.
> Last night, he emails me saying he would like to finish out the season with me.
> Glad I'm the child of an attorney and know how to cover my ass. My contract doesn't make guarantees on times. It addresses acknowledgement that we try to service everyone by 7am, but that extreme weather can make travel difficult, and that plowing will continue.
> ...


well you have two choices.
1. refund him the partial with a cancellation notice.
2. keep him as he said he wants to stay with you.

Me I would drop him like a hot potato with the threatening of a lawsuit and the AG and BB.

Also get rid of the 7am clause in your contracts. 
Simply state you will start plowing at the trigger amounts and will continue until all clients have been serviced.

lets us know what you do


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I would give him the whole refund...
"Sorry i cant cant you happy, good luck with your next contractor"


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

"Sir, I took the liberty of forwarding your payment to our competitor Mr. Plow. He will gladly service your property for the remainder of the season. Have a great day."


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## Indycorp (Oct 24, 2015)

I've been in business for 27 years. I have been in your situation a few times. From what it seems you are dealing with a residential property and homeowner. If it's a few hundred dollars, have your mother draw up a release and have him sign it and give a full refund. Every time I have gotten into an argument with a customer over money, it has always cost me more time and aggravation than it was worth. The guy sounds like a real slime ball. You would be better off. If it's a few grand, bury him in a snow pile LOL.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

DarkHorse said:


> Had something happen early Monday morning, would like some feedback from other contractors. We met snowfall threshold 3" around 2:30am- there was about .25" of ice underneath which made for a slow go. I got a nasty gram at 8am- "I've already plowed- we should part ways." At which point I was on his road.
> I sent him a cancellation notice with breakdown for trips made with refund balance, he tried to strong arm me into a full refund, told me he would sue me, call the AG's and BBB. I told him he may want to re-read the contract he signed, and to go ahead and have his lawyer reach out.
> Last night, he emails me saying he would like to finish out the season with me.
> Glad I'm the child of an attorney and know how to cover my ass. My contract doesn't
> ...


And seeing as this happening in the beginning of the season you did the right thing and you need to drop him.
He'll never be happy and in the spring if you dug up a little bit of lawn or hit anything you can be sure he's going to have you Pay for having it fixed.

If this happened in January or February I would drop him with no refund .

Others may deal better with threats of being sued I don't.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

FredG said:


> Oh sorry, typically Women don't live a snow and ice life style. Good for you I'm all for it. Good Luck


Fred, will be a test afterwards


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