# New to plowing! Need info on contracts and quotes.



## Plus1Lawns (Aug 15, 2017)

This will be my second year in business and first year snow plowing. I have people calling and asking me for snow removal quotes already (Central MN) and I have absolutely no idea on how to bid snow removal. I've done snow removal for another company last year but didn't get any info on what they charge. How should I send my customers a contract? Should I give them options of a per time basis and a price for monthly and a discount if they pay the whole year up front? How many plows for the monthly contract? 5 plows a month and then a discounted price after the 5 plows? Should I be charging by the inches of snowfall? I have no idea! Also, how much extra should I charge to shovel a sidewalk and salt? I know there's lots of opinions and I'm open to all! Thanks so much for your advice! It is greatly appreciated!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

This is a question that comes up quite frequently. Unless somebody from your region responds it will be tough for anybody to help. Good Luck


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

You have to know what your market can stand. Does you no good to go in low, Ditto, Does you no good to go in high. As you been in for a while you can leave some on the table. Maybe. Your first year out need scientific numbers. You have to cover your bottom line a long with a check - profit. You need some inside info, Can't you buy the FOGS a drink or something that sold out or retired from snow. They know there ****. Good Luck


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

What Fred said. You need to do your market research and find what your market and target customers will bear. then you can compare those to your operating expenses to see if you can make it work.

I wont drop my blade for less than $85.00.and we get a lot more snow than most the country. But there are many areas back east that no one will pay more than $35 for a single plow. So, you need to figure out your specific market and then we can help from there.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ktfbgb said:


> What Fred said. You need to do your market research and find what your market and target customers will bear. then you can compare those to your operating expenses to see if you can make it work.
> 
> I wont drop my blade for less than $85.00.and we get a lot more snow than most the country. But there are many areas back east that no one will pay more than $35 for a single plow. So, you need to figure out your specific market and then we can help from there.


A friend told me he lost a client he was getting $85 trip to a guy for $500.00 for season. I know this drive I stoned it. I would want $125. trip with no question. He serviced this drive for 14 yrs. You think he will get it back.   lol


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

If he gets it back he should be charging $170 per trip. I'm a jerk if a client dumps me over price and then asks me to come back. That's for snow work and for contracting. I usually say I'll do it but for double the original price lol. I don't have time to play games so I try to avoid getting back customers who worry about money. Typically if you double it they say no so you are able to avoid the job without having to be the one to turn it down. And if on the rare occasion they accept the price you are getting paid enough to deal them lol.


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## Clean Up (Jan 18, 2018)

Plus1Lawns said:


> This will be my second year in business and first year snow plowing. I have people calling and asking me for snow removal quotes already (Central MN) and I have absolutely no idea on how to bid snow removal. I've done snow removal for another company last year but didn't get any info on what they charge. How should I send my customers a contract? Should I give them options of a per time basis and a price for monthly and a discount if they pay the whole year up front? How many plows for the monthly contract? 5 plows a month and then a discounted price after the 5 plows? Should I be charging by the inches of snowfall? I have no idea! Also, how much extra should I charge to shovel a sidewalk and salt? I know there's lots of opinions and I'm open to all! Thanks so much for your advice! It is greatly appreciated!


If you need help making a business plan I have the best one for residential customers. I can easily get you 50-100 new customers next snow season at a minimum of $35 per stop no contracts! This is my 3rd year doing snow. I use snow as a way to get customers for spring summer and fall. A snow customers is easily worth $500-$1000 per year. Times that by how many customers you want! Snow turns into lawns, lawns, to leafs, gutters, and then back reloading customers with snow. Follow me? If you do snow and take a helper, take 2 and go 3 deep. 1 helper will only save you .3 stops per hour. Which means every 3 hours you gain a stop. Know you will do 2.3 stops per hour solo or 3 stops per hour (3 deep). Better have good blowers that move as fast as you can speed walk. I can fit 45 stops into a 14 hour day solo and spend about $60 on gas and salt. Buy a 14 inch tile scrapper! or 2... they are worth thee $20 investment. You will not be on time in most cases for most of your clients and they will have pulled in and out the drives or walked on walks.

45 - clients @ $35-$60 per stop ( solo ) you will get 10% cancels!
( truck and plow will increase speed to 3 stops per hour solo )
** you will still be shoveling!
3- good blowers that move fast! ( one will break down )
2 - 14 inch tile scrapper ( you will lose one )
4 - shovels ( you will lose or break them )
STOCK UP ON SALT!
* Track your miles / gas / time ! ( know your route / clients / and performance )

Your goal is to build up routes that you can sub out! How? Why?
Because every year you can stack another route! 
Make $5- $10 profit of each client while subbing work out and build up customers in a short few years . Math wise you will be able to spend winters inside building up your residential business instead of working like a fool and still profit nicely! You will also get into commercial work and be spending time plowing lots making CONTRACT MONEY.

The key is to know ( not hope ) that a ton of customers will be contacting you for quotes.
Don't know how to get them to call? I can help!


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I would never plow a driveway for $35.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

ktfbgb said:


> I would never plow a driveway for $35.


I have, there was 8 along the same street in a cookie cutter neighborhood, drives 2 cars wide and 24'deep. Most were next door neighbors and I could do all of them in in hour ($210/hr) including 25' of sidewalk and no salt. This was for 1-4", 4-8" was $50.00 each and the additional snow added aboot 15min to my time there ($240/hr). There's money in resi's that are in town with tight routes.


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## Clean Up (Jan 18, 2018)

Takes me 12 minutes with drive time and I average $40 per stop. Plus no contracts, besides a release from liability. Everyone perceives differently.
I look at clients as investments not licks. Its because I KNOW how much they are potentially worth. Of course you take losses. Its like the stock market but its your OWN market. One snow client turns into a lawn customer, gutter cleaning, and a list of other services you may provide.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> I have, there was 8 along the same street in a cookie cutter neighborhood, drives 2 cars wide and 24'deep. Most were next door neighbors and I could do all of them in in hour ($210/hr) including 25' of sidewalk and no salt. This was for 1-4", 4-8" was $50.00 each and the additional snow added aboot 15min to my time there ($240/hr). There's money in resi's that are in town with tight routes.


I would do that with those numbers, no brainer. $210 an hour in a truck is good. I failed again to elaborate on his comment.

he was saying he could only do 3 per hour working his butt off outside not in a truck making $105 an hour. No way, no thanks.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

ktfbgb said:


> I would do that with those numbers, no brainer. $210 an hour in a truck is good. I failed again to elaborate on his comment.
> 
> he was saying he could only do 3 per hour working his butt off outside not in a truck making $105 an hour. No way, no thanks.


$105/hr and not getting oot of a pickup isn't too bad providing you don't have $1200/month pickup / plow payments on top of everyday operating expenses.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> $105/hr and not getting oot of a pickup isn't too bad providing you don't have $1200/month pickup / plow payments on top of everyday operating expenses.


I think I'm just spoiled. Well more like picky on who I take on as clients, and with our cost of living here, $200 per hour is probably like $100 in a lot of other parts of the country. I only take very specific clients on for residential plowing. Same with construction, I do not want volume work. I take on clients that can afford me, most cant.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

12 minutes?

Try 90 seconds with a tractor/inverted blower. Plus a minute or two of drive time.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

And there's no way you're getting $35 in this market.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> 12 minutes?
> 
> Try 90 seconds with a tractor/inverted blower. Plus a minute or two of drive time.


Not all of us are cool enough to have a tractor setup like yours with an inverted


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> he was saying he could only do 3 per hour working his butt off outside not in a truck making $105 an hour. No way, no thanks.


Plus paying 3 employees. My average sidewalk guy costs me $24ish an hour.

If he's averaging $40 a drive, that leaves less than $50 an hour to run the company. 45 clients would take 15 hours to complete, according to his numbers. Maybe he pays less, and can get better employees to run 15 hour shifts than most companies, maybe he pulls it off. I know most companies couldn't last long making those numbers...


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> Plus paying 3 employees. My average sidewalk guy costs me $24ish an hour.
> 
> If he's averaging $40 a drive, that leaves less than $50 an hour to run the company. 45 clients would take 15 hours to complete, according to his numbers. Maybe he pays less, and can get better employees to run 15 hour shifts than most companies, maybe he pulls it off. I know most companies couldn't last long making those numbers...


You got it man. I wasn't trying to be a A Hole really, just some young guy would have read his other post about helping them write a great business plan, and they would think he was giving them good info.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> You got it man. I wasn't trying to be a A Hole really, just some young guy would have read his other post about helping them write a great business plan, and they would think he was giving them good info.


Agreed.

I'm not saying that it doesn't work for him, but I when I had 3 employees and myself doing walks (basically the same concept), I needed more than that. Hell, my work comp rated them the same as my guys doing roof structures, because they were "in traffic areas" or something...

Not regretting being solo this year!


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

And to top it all off, Clean Up, sounds like a scammer to me. "I'll sell you my system to make money" etc... "And while you're there maybe you can sell your other services, cleaning gutters etc". Sorry, that other crap isn't for me.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Okay, what I am doing with this?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

JustJeff said:


> And to top it all off, Clean Up, sounds like a scammer to me. "I'll sell you my system to make money" etc... "And while you're there maybe you can sell your other services, cleaning gutters etc". Sorry, that other crap isn't for me.


.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Clean Up said:


> If you need help making a business plan I have the best one for residential customers. I can easily get you 50-100 new customers next snow season at a minimum of $35 per stop no contracts! This is my 3rd year doing snow. I use snow as a way to get customers for spring summer and fall. A snow customers is easily worth $500-$1000 per year. Times that by how many customers you want! Snow turns into lawns, lawns, to leafs, gutters, and then back reloading customers with snow. Follow me? If you do snow and take a helper, take 2 and go 3 deep. 1 helper will only save you .3 stops per hour. Which means every 3 hours you gain a stop. Know you will do 2.3 stops per hour solo or 3 stops per hour (3 deep). Better have good blowers that move as fast as you can speed walk. I can fit 45 stops into a 14 hour day solo and spend about $60 on gas and salt. Buy a 14 inch tile scrapper! or 2... they are worth thee $20 investment. You will not be on time in most cases for most of your clients and they will have pulled in and out the drives or walked on walks.
> 
> 45 - clients @ $35-$60 per stop ( solo ) you will get 10% cancels!
> ( truck and plow will increase speed to 3 stops per hour solo )
> ...


No liability's? Follow your plan and you will be sitting in a warm office? Ya right and I got ten acres of swamp land in Tucson. You get somebody smart around there with a inverted the show is over, Smoke won't go far here buddy. You need to find a place to do seminars and see how many :terribletowel:you can find. Good Luck


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

I think Cleanup needs to turn this into an App for your mobile device.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

if Clean Up wants to share with members that's fine, however, if he is looking to "sell a service" or solicit business from the members then that is not allowed


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ConnorExum said:


> I think Cleanup needs to turn this into an App for your mobile device.


These noobs will learn everything they need to know right here on plowsite if they take the advice and knowledge and can take some friendly criticism.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

FredG said:


> These noobs will learn everything they need to know right here on plowsite if they take the advice and knowledge and can take some friendly criticism.


Or, they could use a calculator, timer and detailed list of all their expected expenses before starting this procedure as well.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ConnorExum said:


> Or, they could use a calculator, timer and detailed list of all their expected expenses before starting this procedure as well.


They can learn that as well right here.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Most here are willing to help anybody, The problem is some listen and absorb it others have it figured out already. If you got it figured out why ask. Even as a old goat you can learn something, First hand on hand is how I learned, We used to call it hard knox and if your under someones wing that knows you will catch some crap when messing up. Knowledge did not come easy by the guys that taught me lol. But in hind site I would of kicked my own butt.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

1olddogtwo said:


> Okay, what I am doing with this?
> 
> View attachment 176739


Fly swatter


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

ktfbgb said:


> I think I'm just spoiled. Well more like picky on who I take on as clients, and with our cost of living here, $200 per hour is probably like $100 in a lot of other parts of the country. I only take very specific clients on for residential plowing. Same with construction, I do not want volume work. I take on clients that can afford me, most cant.


It's due to you being in a lower snow area with lesser events to work and less snow contractors in the area.



ktfbgb said:


> Not all of us are cool enough to have a tractor setup like yours with an inverted


If being kool enough to have a tractor/inverter rig means living in a big city in the Midwest, I'm good not being at that level of koolness.....


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

1olddogtwo said:


> Okay, what I am doing with this?
> 
> View attachment 176739


If you are in California- scraping mud


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

The slide was to our north, they hauling the mud down here and stock piling's it, the dogs sniff out the loads before it's stacked and covered. Lot of activity yesterday.

Still three people missing.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

1olddogtwo said:


> The slide was to our north, they hauling the mud down here and stock piling's it, the dogs sniff out the loads before it's stacked and covered. Lot of activity yesterday.
> 
> Still three people missing.


You have had a very busy year! I don't think I could be on the road like that..


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Leaving Saturday, got to stop at Midway Ford Monday to finalize an order in two trucks before heading home.

Home 3 weeks since August.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

let's try to get back on point with the discussion please...thanks all


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

1olddogtwo said:


> Leaving Saturday, got to stop at Midway Ford Monday to finalize an order in two trucks before heading home.
> 
> Home 3 weeks since August.


In KC? Good guys. Almost bought a truck from them, but it sold before I pulled the trigger (4 hours before, to be exact).


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> let's try to get back on point with the discussion please...thanks all


Ok you win.

OP, why no updates or anything?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I think he was saying the scraper thing is for removing the packed down snow from the cars driving on the driveway. 
IDK about you but where I'm from packed down snow is standard. Not all customers expect, or are willing to pay for, bare pavement.
I don't have big, fancy tractors either and I am a happy guy when our resi's are in the < 10 min range, this includes hand shoveling small walks to doors.
I think it's nice to get out and stretch every once and awhile. And around here, if you won't do it, they will find someone else who will.
At least the ones I have are happy to pay for it.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BUFF said:


> It's due to you being in a lower snow area with lesser events to work and less snow contractors in the area.
> 
> If being kool enough to have a tractor/inverter rig means living in a big city in the Midwest, I'm good not being at that level of koolness.....


All come on, You can be kool with a inverted and go back to the hills when finished lol.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jonniesmooth said:


> I think he was saying the scraper thing is for removing the packed down snow from the cars driving on the driveway.
> IDK about you but where I'm from packed down snow is standard. Not all customers expect, or are willing to pay for, bare pavement.
> I don't have big, fancy tractors either and I am a happy guy when our resi's are in the < 10 min range, this includes hand shoveling small walks to doors.
> I think it's nice to get out and stretch every once and awhile. And around here, if you won't do it, they will find someone else who will.
> At least the ones I have are happy to pay for it.


I don't guarantee blacktop showing, I do want salt present tho so hopefully it will clean up on my next push and for in case someone falls and thinks there on easy street lol.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

FredG said:


> I don't guarantee blacktop showing, I do want salt present tho so hopefully it will clean up on my next push and for in case someone falls and thinks there on easy street lol.


My contract has a yes or no check box, if they want us to salt.
I do have a city contract that specifies bare concrete. 
So I broom, then salt, then wait. Repeat as needed. I have taken the propane weed torch to melt off the last stubborn ice that the salt wouldn't get.
I am going to experiment with some liquids to see if that's better.
I also have an idea for a multi torch, hand dolly type device to hit the whole walk, we could maybe even make an attachment for the tractor?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

FredG said:


> All come on, You can be kool with a inverted and go back to the hills when finished lol.


When mom calved me oot I was kool before I hit the ground.......but that's another topic.....
Every market area requires different equipment, different levels, types of service, and each has different rates for services provided Population along with contractor density also play into rates and equipment used. Area's that see more events and snow due to lake effect require different equipment, from what I've learned on PS rates are mulch less than area's like the midwest were New England they're higher.
I like equipment and if it was justifiable I would have had a tractor inverter blower rig, however we don't have enough snow, don't have the storm frequency do warrant the investment.


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## Brettny (Jul 12, 2017)

Plus1lawns. My first years doing snow quotes i would go out to every place to five them a quote. Between meeting times and drive time i was wasting alot of time. But you should do this the first few times at least.
Now i use google satellite images, google street view and a county mapping tool and county property owners onfo all online. You can get a real good idea from the resources online.
I dont plow rental houses where the owner dosnt live next door, to hard to get paid.
I would always get asked for quotes when its alreaty snowing. So naturaly i cant waste my time durring a storm to quote a driveway. Many people just waste time by looking for quotes and your time shouldnt be wasted.

Some customers always seam to have there neighbor snowblow it for them so find another one to replace them. Or you will be out there after 2ft of snow when there neighbor couldn't keep up.


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## SnowHampshire (Nov 8, 2020)

Brettny said:


> Plus1lawns. My first years doing snow quotes i would go out to every place to five them a quote. Between meeting times and drive time i was wasting alot of time. But you should do this the first few times at least.
> Now i use google satellite images, google street view and a county mapping tool and county property owners onfo all online. You can get a real good idea from the resources online.
> I dont plow rental houses where the owner dosnt live next door, to hard to get paid.
> I would always get asked for quotes when its alreaty snowing. So naturaly i cant waste my time durring a storm to quote a driveway. Many people just waste time by looking for quotes and your time shouldnt be wasted.
> ...


"Or you will be out there after 2ft of snow when there neighbor couldn't keep up."
So annoying!!! I dealt with that at the beginning of the season and that was the last time I'll deal with it. They say "were going to shovel the first part of the storm but we'd like you to come later". Show up, there is a pathetic looking 3 ft square of snow shoveled in a big ass driveway. 2' of snow plus what the city plow left. Screw that, no way no how.


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