# Need help on bidding snow removal for commercial lot



## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

I am new to snow removal and have no idea what to charge. They would like me to price the lot just to plow it and to plow and salt both. I believe it is roughly around 24,000 square feet. Should I charge by the square foot or by an hourly rate? And how long does and job like this usually take? We work in northern Tn so we do not see snow very often. Any advice is appreciated


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)




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## LWPM (Nov 25, 2021)

What size plow and truck do you have?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

24,000sq ft is about .5 acre. So you would charge your minimum 1 hour. If charging hourly.
Are you plowing while closed and no traffic?
Or while open with traffic?
If open it will take longer.
You could price it per push. Equal to about 2.5 hrs.
Salt will vary.
In a low snow area, I would explain to them. You need some kind of retainer fee for having equipment available to perform, even if it doesn't snow.
And some nature of a fuel surcharge.
What are we talking about here, about 4-6 events per season?
Could work out a seasonal price.
Figure on the high end for a monthly payment. 
And offer a discount if they pay up front.


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

LWPM said:


> What size plow and truck do you have?


I do not have one at the moment but am trying to buy a used f250 with a plow this week


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## LWPM (Nov 25, 2021)

Well for a setup like mine (F-350 with 11 foot V-Plow) it would take 15 to 20 minutes to plow that site and then another 5 minutes or so to salt the site as well (Inbed salter) so in total 20 to 25 minutes max. You can use that time as a reference depending on what size plow you have and then operator experience. 
As far as pricing goes every area is different, especially Canada. 
What is the hourly Plowing rate for your area?
How much is bulk salt per ton?
These are all factors that would determine your price.


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

jonniesmooth said:


> 24,000sq ft is about .5 acre. So you would charge your minimum 1 hour. If charging hourly.
> Are you plowing while closed and no traffic?
> Or while open with traffic?
> If open it will take longer.
> ...


Ok thank you and question why would hour per push be 2.5 instead of 1? Is that with deicing?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Call up your insurance agent and tell them your plowing snow for $$$ and you need commercial liability insurance and you would like a quote.

then see if this still is a good idea.


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

LWPM said:


> Well for a setup like mine (F-350 with 11 foot V-Plow) it would take 15 to 20 minutes to plow that site and then another 5 minutes or so to salt the site as well (Inbed salter) so in total 20 to 25 minutes max. You can use that time as a reference depending on what size plow you have and then operator experience.
> As far as pricing goes every area is different, especially Canada.
> What is the hourly Plowing rate for your area?
> How much is bulk salt per ton?
> These are all factors that would determine your price.


I am not sure what my competition is charging per hour because I do not think their are very many people local that do commercial snow removal


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Yotataco said:


> Ok thank you and question why would hour per push be 2.5 instead of 1? Is that with deicing?


Because your averaging out the time you will be there, so it's the same charge every time.
Not the actual time you are there.
It's just a reference point, you can set it wherever you need it to be, factoring in the other things I mentioned. 
No,salt would be separate in my bid.


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

Hydromaster said:


> Call up your insurance agent and tell them your plowing snow for $$$ and you need commercial liability insurance and you would like a quote.
> 
> then see if this still is a good idea.


What insurance


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## LWPM (Nov 25, 2021)

Yotataco said:


> I am not sure what my competition is charging per hour because I do not think their are very many people local that do commercial snow removal


Well make sure you cover expenses and then have about 65% margin of profit.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Yotataco said:


> I am not sure what my competition is charging per hour because I do not think their are very many people local that do commercial snow removal


That's only relevant to a point,in that you have to price competitively. But you need to know YOUR numbers to be profitable.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)




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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Yotataco said:


> What insurance


Ok, so what do you do the rest of the year when it isn't snowing?


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

I 


jonniesmooth said:


> Because your averaging out the time you will be there, so it's the same charge every time.
> Not the actual time you are there.
> It's just a reference point, you can set it wherever you need it to be, factoring in the other things I mentioned.
> No,salt would be separate in my bid.


I understand. How much additional cost would you say salting be by the hour?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Yotataco said:


> I
> 
> I understand. How much additional cost would you say salting be by the hour?


IDK salt prices in TN.
Can't help you with that.


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

jonniesmooth said:


> Ok, so what do you do the rest of the year when it isn't snowing?


Lawn care, tree service, house washing, asphalt sealing, ext


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Yotataco said:


> Lawn care, tree service, house washing, asphalt sealing, ext


Don’t you have GL Insurnace for that?
Worker’s compensation too I presume


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

jonniesmooth said:


> That's only relevant to a point,in that you have to price competitively. But you need to know YOUR numbers to be profitable.


Ok but also how do you know how much salt is enough and how much is too much when spreading?


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Don’t you have GL Insurnace for that?
> Worker’s compensation too I presume


Yes something like that


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Yotataco said:


> Yes something like that


Yes something like that, or it is that?
Don’t ask for advice and then play hard to get


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Yes something like that, or it is that?
> Don’t ask for advice and then play hard to get


Perhaps his insurance plan consists of this:


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

cwren2472 said:


> Perhaps his insurance plan consists of this:


Yes


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Yotataco said:


> Yes


Ok, we’ll you should go get some real insurance which would include GL, and workers comp at a minimum, commercial auto as well.
And then I’d be happy to help you how to bid that property properly.

Operating w/o Insurnace is asking for trouble, it’s a risky gamble, and many times illegal and deceiving.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Ok, we’ll you should go get some real insurance which would include GL, and workers comp at a minimum, commercial auto as well.
> And then I’d be happy to help you how to bid that property properly.
> 
> Operating w/o Insurnace is asking for trouble, it’s a risky gamble, and many times illegal and deceiving.


Everyone knows that insurance is a scam. You must be in the back pocket of BigInsurance.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Yotataco said:


> Yes something like that


hey I have an idea. 
Why don’t you go sit down with a pen and paper, maybe a stack of sharp pencils and you figure out your operating costs including, insurance
every day and for your business,including your truck ,including your plow, including your time, including the salt, and figure out for yourself how much you need to charge an hour to be profitable.
Then when you go to bid, here’s a little tip almost nobody charges by the hour.

run a legitimate business.


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Ok, we’ll you should go get some real insurance which would include GL, and workers comp at a minimum, commercial auto as well. And then I’d be happy to help you how to bid that property properly. Operating w/o Insurnace is asking for trouble, it’s a risky gamble, and many times illegal and deceiving.


 How can one profit after all of that? I am assuming the costs for me are very high. If I’m carful I could just use that money on future equipment


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

Hydromaster said:


> hey I have an idea.
> Why don’t you go sit down with a pen and paper, maybe a stack of sharp pencils and you figure out your operating costs including, insurance
> every day and for your business,including your truck ,including your plow, including your time, including the salt, and figure out for yourself how much you need to charge an hour to be profitable.
> Then when you go to bid, here’s a little tip almost nobody charges by the hour.
> ...


I would like to do that but the area in which I work out of is very rural with average annual income of $12k. I probably do not have near as much business or experience with business as you all because of my area. The way I run my business is money in not money out


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Yotataco said:


> How can one profit after all of that? I am assuming the costs for me are very high. If I’m carful I could just use that money on future equipment


There's no way you aren't screwing with us but I still approve cuz it's funny.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Yotataco said:


> How can one profit after all of that? I am assuming the costs for me are very high. If I’m carful I could just use that money on future equipment


Yea, it’s apart of doing business.
Just like taxes.


Listen if you’re here to troll, we can happily close this out


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

Just need an estimate that’s all


BossPlow2010 said:


> Yea, it’s apart of doing business.
> Just like taxes.
> 
> 
> ...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Yea, it’s apart of doing business.
> Just like taxes.


Geez, first you support paying for insurance, now taxes too? Next I'll bet you recommend springing for OEM plow fluid.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Yotataco said:


> Just need an estimate that’s all


$150/hr. 



Give or take $125.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)




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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

$2000 Per push
$1000 Per salt application.

Do you need to collect taxes in your area do you need to have a business license ?
what happens when you run into someone, slide into the building or someone or some thing? I bet you those overhead doors they have cost more than you have in the bank.
they can sue you. You know your vehicle insurance that you have now will not cover you.

You sound like a lowballer, a bottom feeder.
does the grocery store or the gas station charge less because the people there earn less?

Sounds like you want to earn less to.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Yotataco said:


> Just need an estimate that’s all


In Michigan, it would take roughly 432 pounds of salt for the parking lot, some storms less, some more,


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> what happens when you run into someone, slide into the building or someone or some thing?





Yotataco said:


> I’m carful


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I’ll tell the judge that,,, but but but but but you’re honor, I was carful…..


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

cwren2472 said:


> $150/hr. Give or take $125.


 Thank you I will try to compare to what others nearby are charging


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

Hydromaster said:


> $2000 Per push
> $1000 Per salt application.
> 
> Do you need to collect taxes in your area do you need to have a business license ?
> ...


so your suggesting I spend more of my hard earned profit for something that I don’t necessarily need in order to make more money?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Yotataco said:


> Thank you I will try to compare to what others nearby are charging


If you find out what others are charging, just charge 5% less


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

BossPlow2010 said:


> In Michigan, it would take roughly 432 pounds of salt for the parking lot, some storms less, some more,


I’ll keep that in mind thank you


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Yotataco said:


> so your suggesting I spend more of my hard earned profit for something that I don’t necessarily need in order to make more money?


Yes

You are the one that wants to be a business owner do you think the The business that you want to plow for doesn’t have the proper insurance for his business or Workmen’s Comp. to cover his employees.

it takes money to earn money.

pro tip, You re-coop all of your business costs pluss a profit by charging the proper amount for your services.

good luck


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> pro tip, You re-coop all of your business costs pluss a profit by charging the proper amount for your services.


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## Yotataco (2 mo ago)

Hydromaster said:


> Yes
> 
> You are the one that wants to be a business owner do you think the The business that you want to plow for doesn’t have the proper insurance insurance for his business or Workmen’s Comp. to cover his employees.
> 
> ...


You are correct. I will try to look into what my costs would be to go that route


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## Mountain Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Ok, we’ll you should go get some real insurance which would include GL, and workers comp at a minimum, commercial auto as well.
> And then I’d be happy to help you how to bid that property properly.
> 
> Operating w/o Insurnace is asking for trouble, it’s a risky gamble, and many times illegal and deceiving.


Which is why I no longer plow for people up here, they started getting "iffy", and once I priced out insurance, plowing would be at a loss. I still plow my section of road, and for a few friends up here, when they get in a bind. Now those people pay over $300 for what I used to charge less than $100. Thy cut their own throats,lol.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mountain Bob said:


> Which is why I no longer plow for people up here, they started getting "iffy", and once I priced out insurance, plowing would be at a loss. I still plow my section of road, and for a few friends up here, when they get in a bind. Now those people pay over $300 for what I used to charge less than $100. Thy cut their own throats,lol.


We pay about 6,000 a year in Insurnace.
We get audited every November and they want to know our payroll, subs payroll and description of services, not sure if all businesses get audited, but we do.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> We pay about 6,000 a year in Insurnace.
> We get audited every November and they want to know our payroll, subs payroll and description of services, not sure if all businesses get audited, but we do.


Ditto.
That reminds me, I've gotta do a P&L for last month.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Hydromaster said:


> $2000 Per push
> $1000 Per salt application.
> 
> Do you need to collect taxes in your area do you need to have a business license ?
> ...


Yep,he's out of his league. Leave it to the big fish.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Yotataco said:


> so your suggesting I spend more of my hard earned profit for something that I don’t necessarily need in order to make more money?


I'd bet a bazillion dollars that the contract will require you to show proof of insurance. They very likely will want to be an " additional insured party" too
Which the last time I had to do that several years ago, cost me another $125.
So define " need" again.


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## SilverPine (Dec 7, 2018)

Alot of newer guys in this industry never seem to fully understand how insurance works. It's not so much for if you damage or hit anything. It's SLIP AND FALLS. It can happen at any type of property. With no or improper insurance, it will ruin your company and potentially make you personally liable. Insurance should not be taken lightly in this industry.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

BossPlow2010 said:


> We pay about 6,000 a year in Insurnace.
> We get audited every November and they want to know our payroll, subs payroll and description of services, not sure if all businesses get audited, but we do.


I am moving out there, my first payment is $5000.00


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## LWPM (Nov 25, 2021)

Yotataco said:


> Ok but also how do you know how much salt is enough and how much is too much when spreading?


About 200lbs to 400lbs for that site.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Everyone has to start somewhere.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Remember the poster from TN (maybe Kentucky?) that had that huge windfall invoice for clearing a commercial lot with a little tractor? Maybe last year?

OP: How much snow do you get a year?


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## Moweze (Oct 24, 2019)

Don't forget $1500-$2000 for snow/winter tires.

Around here (central Indiana) commercial accounts will negotiate with anyone, but they won't accept a bid until you provide the proof of insurances, ie. Liability, COMMERCIAL auto, and work-comp. Generally with at least a 2-million dollar aggregate(total) coverage.Some require an additional 2 million dollar umbrella to work on property.

That lot in my area would start at $250 per push and increase based on snow totals, and be about $200 for salt. Salt use would even out over multiple storms due to rate differences based on ice/snow and surface/forecast temps.

9.5' v-plow and bed salter is my main rig.


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## TwiceStroked (Feb 8, 2010)

Yotataco said:


> How can one profit after all of that? I am assuming the costs for me are very high. If I’m carful I could just use that money on future equipment


Or to hire the lawyer to file bankruptcy after 1 slip&fall, where r u located, because litigation is expensive


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> We pay about 6,000 a year in Insurnace.
> We get audited every November and they want to know our payroll, subs payroll and description of services, not sure if all businesses get audited, but we do.


We get audited in NY and I wish I had your rates. Our GL and comp total more than 80k. We are accident and incident free. Granted we build homes so they probably bag is higher than lawn jockeys…unless they check out the local pond edges first…


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Roughly 1 acre is 1 hour of plowing.
But could take longer depending on different factors, cars, back blading, weird curb shapes, etc...
Also coming back to clean up spots if cars where parked there during a storm.

That is about 1/2 acre and should take you about 30 minutes to 45 minutes to plow depending on your plow and sand.

Also how long does it take you drive there, add that time in.

How much is salt in your area, roughly 1 ton per 2.5 acre so for a half acre lot figure roughly 1/4 ton.
So if salt costs you say $100 a ton your cost is around $25 to salt per event.

Lastly find out what GL insurance is going to cost you.

So factor in insurance, cost of salt, cost of gas etc... and that will give you your hourly rate to break even and factor in what you want to make.
So say you want to make $50 a hour and your costs are $100 you would charge $150 per hour. Mind you these are rough estimates.

So you would bid out sites by snow fall totals based on your hourly rate for plowing only.
Example
1-3.9 $100
4-6.9 $150
7-9.9 $225
10-12 $325
Every inch over 12 $50 per inch

Some people also charge per push so your trigger amount is say 3 inches and on a 6 inch snow storm you would go there twice charging them $200.
I used to do that when I started out but kept overbidding because everyone in my area didn't do that and only went half the price to start every 3 inchs.
Changed my bidding on per storm and was in the ballpark.
Now I do that but also add in a additional $25 for every 3 inchs which you see in the example.

If salt cost me $100 a ton, cost would be around $25 to salt that place I would charge $75 for light salting and $150 for heavy salting -(double the product put down)

So you get a 4 inch snow storm. Your charge here would be $150 plowing and light salting $75 total $225

One last thing if they just want you to plow without sanding I would write in the contract you are not responsible for any slip and falls because no sanding is being done by you.

Also you need to know your prices for plowing and sanding in your state and area. 

My area I could around $$250 to $275 for a 4 inch storm but drive a hour one way and they could make $300 to $350. 
Go to another state and they could be making $500 or $150.


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