# 2002 Holder sidewalk plow. Cylinder leaking. Need help.



## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Looking for people with knowledge about Holder C9700H sidewalk plow.
I've a 2002 Holder C9700H sidewalk plow, diesel Deutz engine, 4x4, articulated.
I was told that the hot spot for these machines is the articulation.
It has 2 cylinders, one on each side as part of the steering system, which work articulating the machine in order to generate the geometry needed for efficiency and speed. 
The cylinder on the right side is leaking hydraulic fluid. We managed to disassemble the cylinder without separating the front and the back of the machine. Disconnected the fluid hose and coupling and manage to remove the front cover (Piston Rod Assembly) but there is no way to pull out the packing and the manual shows that the packing is hold with two rings ans washers. I think that must be a way to pick the rings through the hose hole and force them to release the packing then you can pull the whole assembly out and replace the packing and reverse it assembling.
We try and start and elaborate for a whole day without getting the rod out and I need some help on what is the trick to achieve the repair.
I can't believe that the steering cylinder is irreparable and you have to replace it.
I'll appreciate if any of you can hint me towards the solution of this nightmare.
I'll post a capture of the lay out as per the Holder manual.
Thank you all in advance.
Robert


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)




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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

I removed the threaded cover (34) but the rest of the rod and the washers and rings (27/28/32/33/ ar all inside the cylinder 26 and I have no idea how to release the rings and washers in order to have the rod and the packing out. I can not see the part 41 and 42 and I presume those parts are inside the cylinder (part 26).


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Robert from the Soo said:


> I removed the threaded cover (34) but the rest of the rod and the washers and rings (27/28/32/33/ ar all inside the cylinder 26 and I have no idea how to release the rings and washers in order to have the rod and the packing out. I can not see the part 41 and 42 and I presume those parts are inside the cylinder (part 26).


I've never worked on a holder, but I'm understanding that 34 is loose, but that the piston and rod are still in place.

If so, apply pressure to the port behind the piston, (where 11 and 18 connect) and it should push out.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Yes, make sense. We'll try that today. Thank you very much.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I've never worked on a holder, but I'm understanding that 34 is loose, but that the piston and rod are still in place.
> 
> If so, apply pressure to the port behind the piston, (where 11 and 18 connect) and it should push out.


I think it's secured with a snap ring inside... something is holding the piston inside the cylinder and I should be able to release it through the port on the top front, but when I pick in there there is nothing to move, nothing flexible. We'll have a look at it tomorrow morning again and see what happens, but must be a trick to remove the piston.


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

Robert this may help ?


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Thank you very much Avalanche 2500. Great video. I can't find the snap ring on the front... will keep trying and learning.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Robert from the Soo said:


> Thank you very much Avalanche 2500. Great video. I can't find the snap ring on the front... will keep trying and learning.


Can you post some pictures of what you are facing?


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Can you post some pictures of what you are facing?


I'll go tomorrow morning early and get pictures.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Robert from the Soo said:


> I'll go tomorrow morning early and get pictures.


We got it out. Have to wack the threaded part with considerable strength in order to release a snap ring that is well inside a grove, finally the piston come up. Now we are facing another challenge. Piston is out. Now the eye, the ram are one piece, part 34 moves on the ram up and down and there is part without number, in the graphic the part at the end of the ram between parts 33 and 34. In order to remove part 34 and release all seals inside you have to free on end of the ram and the logical end is the one where also two rubber seals go. Is the part between 33 and 34 and there is no way to free it and slide 34 out. Could be (we think is not) threaded, but the ram is the same thickness above and below the ram then the ram ends, it was heated read and try to unscrew... right and left and it moved about 2/8 as per a reference mark but it seems to be welded inside... no way to move it out to slide the packing out. We try. The people that deal with hydraulic systems try and the cylinder is still there in one piece. Any ideas, suggestions or knowledge sources. Very challenging machine. Any help will be higly appreciated. Robert.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

I would suggest calling holder tractor of North America, they are great to deal with, there is a mechanic that has worked there for decades and has lots of experience on those older machines. 

Have you considered getting new bearings and pins since you have gone this?


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

The manual indicates that a special tool is needed with a Turcon-Glyd Ring.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Robert from the Soo said:


> The manual indicates that a special tool is needed with a Turcon-Glyd Ring.


How much is a seal kit from Holder ?


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Hi UpNorth. We'd call Holder, they got back to us to acknowledge the call and promised to have someone from thechnical to contact us, but never happen. That was Holder in Ottawa (Embrun). Today we contacted a representative in Sudbury and sent him the serial number of the machine and few pictures of the piston... right of the bat he said; you'll need a new piston... Aaagghhh... This is getting complicated.
Now, the manual states that certain parts of the packing need an special tool. Parts 27, 28 and 33 show an asterisk on the left and at the end of the chart there is an explanation of the meaning of the asterisk... an special tool to replace the packing/seal... Please check.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

UpNorthMowing said:


> How much is a seal kit from Holder ?


I don't know yet. We have a local place that deals with all hydraulics, they are good people and they couldn't find the part... but they've never seen a Holder part before and couldn't tell us the price of the seals because they couldn't determine what packing is needed. At this point we know that is metric and there is no way to remove the seal packing from the ram. Dead end. Options? Cut one end and weld it back together?


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

In this picture with red is the whole piston and the part 34 is the one that contains the packing and fits right on the opening of the cylinder. The part surrounded in green is the piston itself, they mounted it on the ram with a sort of internal ring or pin and there is no way to move it up, down, or sideways, then, how can you get the packing out of the ram and replace the seals.. Please excuse my expressions, I'm not 100% proficient in English and sometimes few details get missed in the translation. Sorry about that.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Robert from the Soo said:


> Hi UpNorth. We'd call Holder, they got back to us to acknowledge the call and promised to have someone from thechnical to contact us, but never happen. That was Holder in Ottawa (Embrun). Today we contacted a representative in Sudbury and sent him the serial number of the machine and few pictures of the piston... right of the bat he said; you'll need a new piston... Aaagghhh... This is getting complicated.
> Now, the manual states that certain parts of the packing need an special tool. Parts 27, 28 and 33 show an asterisk on the left and at the end of the chart there is an explanation of the meaning of the asterisk... an special tool to replace the packing/seal... Please check.
> 
> View attachment 205366


One thing about contacting a REP in Sudbury is that they most likely going to have to call the Holder dealer in Ottawa to get that information.

Last time we had to replace a cylinder ( different than the one you are looking at) was around $2k and that was 3 years ago.

If they sell the seals, it should be able to rebuilt without having to cut and weld. maybe @Aerospace Eng and anyone else has more knowledge in hydraulic cylinder operation.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

UpNorthMowing said:


> One thing about contacting a REP in Sudbury is that they most likely going to have to call the Holder dealer in Ottawa to get that information.
> 
> Last time we had to replace a cylinder ( different than the one you are looking at) was around $2k and that was 3 years ago.
> 
> If they sell the seals, it should be able to rebuilt without having to cut and weld. maybe @Aerospace Eng and anyone else has more knowledge in hydraulic cylinder operation.


I'll upload the pictures of the piston as it's right now. I think they push the piston on the ram with a press and if they charge above $ 2000 for a cylinder... well we will have to machine the piston and rebuild everything with less than that... I hope.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Holder C9700H right side steering cylinder piston with packing. Ram with packing. How to remove the central packing part when both ends of the ram are fixed. We tray unscrew, heat, pressure... you name it.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

It's scrap now. The pipe wrench or vise on the piston has destroyed it beyond repair.

Overall, it doesn't look like it was made to be repairable. The piston has to be rigidly attached to the rod, so it doesn't move under several thousands of pounds of force. The rod/piston may even be one piece, although it is hard to tell from the photos.

I would have suggested disassembling the rod end to the extent possible, since it looks like it is attached to the rod somehow. If it is welded to the rod, your only option would be to cut it off and then reweld.

Given where you are now, I would probably look for someone parting out a similar machine. If that doesn't work, you may want to try a custom cylinder shop (I have used Dalton hydraulics in the past, on my sweeper/scrubber. They did well for me once, but the other time said they couldn't make a cylinder that would work, so I had to go the factory route. The problem you are going to have is that you need to match the left and right sides exactly, or your steering will be messed up.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

It can be fixed. it’s not a machined part of the ram. 
at this point why don’t you take all your parts and pieces to a hydraulic shop and have them repair it , which will be cheaper than buying a new one


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

.......


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

I can't be 100% certain, but those cylinders might be the same between 9700's 9.78's and 992's.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Person on ebay seems to be parting out a 9700, might be worth to contact them

https://www.ebay.com/sch/tahoeotter/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

I know next to nothing about the guts of hydraulic cylinders and rams, but my first guess about disassembly (if possible) would be that the heim joint would be removable from the end of the rod? They look dissimilar enough to make me think they may come apart


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Seeing as how the gland is not held on with a nut... I’d be looking in the grooves for a roll pin or a pin that holds it onto the ram.

Jmo.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

the Suburbanite said:


> I know next to nothing about the guts of hydraulic cylinders and rams, but my first guess about disassembly (if possible) would be that the heim joint would be removable from the end of the rod? They look dissimilar enough to make me think they may come apart


Could be..


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

It's also listed as an assembly ( piston rod assembly)and a special tools needed to get a seal on the end also.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

I wonder if that end is a friction fit taper ? You would think a machine shop could machine that end if they could somehow take it off.

The special tool was mentioned on the fist page, post #13


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

UpNorthMowing said:


> I wonder if that end is a friction fit taper ? You would think a machine shop could machine that end if they could somehow take it off.
> 
> The special tool was mentioned on the fist page, post #13


 Maybe not a DIY if you didn't already possess the tool or know how it comes apart.
It definitely doesn't look like it's threaded on.
.
Suburbanite, has a good idea ,
The part that he mauled up doesn't need to come off,,if the other end threads off of the rod and you could slide off and replace the other seals that way

Sometimes it's cheaper to take it to a guy.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Hydromaster said:


> Maybe not a DIY if you didn't already possess the tool or know how it comes apart.
> It definitely doesn't look like it's threaded on .
> 
> Sometimes it's cheaper to take it to a guy.


Yep we let the hydraulic shops sort out all of hydraulic repairs.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I find it hard to believe they would make something where the O-ring on the inside of the gland nut could not be replaced. 

Thus, either the rod-end or the piston has to come off, but I don't see an obvious was that it does so. 

Is the diameter of the short protrusion past the piston the same diameter as the rod?

I don't think it is worth it here, but for future reference, if the parts book and manufacturer are no help, and the part is very expensive, something to consider would be to have the part CT scanned. It would cost a few hundred bucks, but would give you a 3-d view inside, so you could see if there were parts threaded together, where the rod might be stepped, etc.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I find it hard to believe they would make something where the O-ring on the inside of the gland nut could not be replaced.
> 
> Thus, either the rod-end or the piston has to come off, but I don't see an obvious was that it does so.
> 
> ...


It's called "German engineering" once you work on enough of them you realize some of the decisions were not the greatest. I am betting a cylinder is north of 2,000 dollars, plus shipping.

Holder tractor parts counter is great to deal with, hopefully he calls back again to get more information.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Hydromaster said:


> View attachment 205397


The million dollar question is what are parts 27 and 28 of the assembly


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Robert from the Soo said:


> Holder C9700H right side steering cylinder piston with packing. Ram with packing. How to remove the central packing part when both ends of the ram are fixed. We tray unscrew, heat, pressure... you name it.
> 
> View attachment 205384
> 
> ...


What was the cylinder like?

It seems that the O-ring below the threaded portion is on a part larger in section than the threads themselves, which would indicate that the threads don't hold the cap on. If so, I'm wondering what the threads do.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

the Suburbanite said:


> The million dollar question is what are parts 27 and 28 of the assembly


It appears to me that 27 and 28 are O-rings that go in the three grooves in the piston, 32 is the static O-ring at the top, and 33 is the lock ring.

There has to be some sort of dynamic seal between the piston rod and the threaded part, but it isn't shown.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

OP posted the schematic in full earlier in the thread, but I must have missed it. Aero is correct about 27 and 28. Looks like there is a gasket kit (part 110 187) with 27, 28, and 33 that is/was available. Moot point now unless you can get the piston repaired (if even possible). Good luck, please update your progress.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Hi all! Thank you for the input.
The size of the ram or shaft is one, end to end. We measure that.
Piston is not a part of the shaft, it was made and mounted and secured to the ram and is not threaded, nor back neither for... and we managed to twist it about 1/4 inch from the reference mark (white chalk) but it doesn't release.
We went to the hydraulic shop, they are people in the trade for sixty + years and they couldn't remove the packing in order to know what seals to order... that's how everything started.

Piston is not damaged beyond repair because the bed for the seals is intact and the damage from the pipe wrench is on the top, but below the seals because the piston runs on two seals (rings). There is not metal on metal here.

We try all possible ways included the german way and the russian way and no way!

This is were we stand now: Neither the eye rod end, nor the piston are part of the shaft, then the best option is to cut the eye rod, remove the seal packing and replace it, then have the piston measured and cut it of the ram, machine a new piston and weld it to the shaft.

Now, I don't know anything about hydraulics or mechanics, but I'm thinking that the piston is secured to the shaft with induction welding. Even we try to remove the end of the shaft because could be threaded and the end is a cap and not, is not. There is no gap between parts to fit a shaving blade. 

On Monday we'll know what the price of the parts is and which way we go.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It appears to me that 27 and 28 are O-rings that go in the three grooves in the piston, 32 is the static O-ring at the top, and 33 is the lock ring.
> 
> There has to be some sort of dynamic seal between the piston rod and the threaded part, but it isn't shown.


Thank you for your input AE. The piston is secured into the cylinder via the threaded part 34 which is the one leaking fluid. The piston and shaft moves back and for through part 34. Part 34 is threaded into the cylinder and then secured with a spring ring and then a cap that threads on to the part 34.

If you read the schematics of the reference chart they have listed a part number 315.314.2WE that I think it's the piston as a whole with the seals, part 34 and eye rod. I hope I'm right, because that's the option to a whole cylinder.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

the Suburbanite said:


> View attachment 205409
> 
> View attachment 205410
> 
> OP posted the schematic in full earlier in the thread, but I must have missed it. Aero is correct about 27 and 28. Looks like there is a gasket kit (part 110 187) with 27, 28, and 33 that is/was available. Moot point now unless you can get the piston repaired (if even possible). Good luck, please update your progress.


Thank you for your input. I think that the piston is not repairable without cutting one end open and they sale the whole assembly which is part 34. Just check my response to AE. Part 315.314.2-WE.
There is no way to mount part 34 on the shaft when the piston, the eye rod and the shaft are one piece. 
You either remove the piston or the eye rod from the shaft and slide the part 34 out, repair and replace, or you remove the piston from the cylinder with the part 34, order a new one and away you go.

We'll know better on Monday for sure.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> It's also listed as an assembly ( piston rod assembly)and a special tools needed to get a seal on the end also.
> View attachment 205396
> View attachment 205397


Thank you HM.
I hope they sale the whole assembly.
Thank you for referring those shops. The border is close now, otherwise I'll go right tomorrow. We trust the people here in town as well, they've been in business for more than 60 years.
I believe they have the part 314.315.2-WE which is the whole piston rod assembly ""with the part 34"".

This morning it occurred to me that the piston could have been secured to the ram or shaft through induction welding, because there is a very tiny gap in between the parts.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

I would be surprised if they didn't have that cylinder in stock. Very few things are not in stock. Ask if they have any used cylinders as well, sometimes they have some used parts as well.

Keep us posted.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Robert from the Soo said:


> Thank you HM.
> I hope they sale the whole assembly.
> Thank you for referring those shops. The border is close now, otherwise I'll go right tomorrow. We trust the people here in town as well, they've been in business for more than 60 years.
> I believe they have the part 314.315.2-WE which is the whole piston rod assembly ""with the part 34"".
> ...


I'm thinking that part 34 is the whole assembly, not just the top cap, and that it doesn't come apart. I'm pretty sure that part 110 187 is just the seals, and you need the fancy tool to install them on the piston. Aero is better at deciphering these than me, maybe he will chime in again.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

UpNorthMowing said:


> I would be surprised if they didn't have that cylinder in stock. Very few things are not in stock. Ask if they have any used cylinders as well, sometimes they have some used parts as well.
> 
> Keep us posted.


Thank you UNM


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

the Suburbanite said:


> I'm thinking that part 34 is the whole assembly, not just the top cap, and that it doesn't come apart. I'm pretty sure that part 110 187 is just the seals, and you need the fancy tool to install them on the piston. Aero is better at deciphering these than me, maybe he will chime in again.
> View attachment 205414


Thank you. 
We think the same way. 
It make sense from the German point of view, you can't risk damaging the piston, the shaft or even the eye rod only to set a 25 dollar seal kit. And I bet you the special tool is the one on the side of the cylinder, just a cover with a belt that will hold everything in place to slide the piston inside.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It's scrap now. The pipe wrench or vise on the piston has destroyed it beyond repair.
> 
> Overall, it doesn't look like it was made to be repairable. The piston has to be rigidly attached to the rod, so it doesn't move under several thousands of pounds of force. The rod/piston may even be one piece, although it is hard to tell from the photos.
> 
> ...


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Robert from the Soo said:


> Thank you.
> We think the same way.
> It make sense from the German point of view, you can't risk damaging the piston, the shaft or even the eye rod only to set a 25 dollar seal kit. And I bet you the special tool is the one on the side of the cylinder, just a cover with a belt that will hold everything in place to slide the piston inside.


I can guarantee you a seal kit from holder is going to be alot more than $25  payup


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It's scrap now. The pipe wrench or vise on the piston has destroyed it beyond repair.
> 
> Overall, it doesn't look like it was made to be repairable. The piston has to be rigidly attached to the rod, so it doesn't move under several thousands of pounds of force. The rod/piston may even be one piece, although it is hard to tell from the photos.
> 
> ...


Thank you for helping us in the search of a solution. That's nice of you.
I have to slightly disagree, it's not crap yet, it can be rebuild if needed. The seating of the sealing is intact. 
The walls are deteriorated but can be machined to perfection just below the seals. The metal doesn't touch nothing, the piston moves back and for on the seals, but you have a solid reason to say that it should be scraped.
We'd considered a new piston machine made.
I think the piston is induction welded to the shaft.
I'll keep everyone posted because we face the case scenario of Holder not having a replacement part below a thousands of dollars new cylinder, then we have to became creative or pay with the plastic and face the consequences.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

UpNorthMowing said:


> I can guarantee you a seal kit from holder is going to be alot more than $25  payup


$ 60 to $ 80
Other than if they serve it with continental breakfast.
I'll ask for a seal kit with fries on the side and a milk shake!


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Send this guy a e-mail,
I bet he knows a guy or he is the guy.

https://www.alpinesmith-multihog.com/


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Robert from the Soo said:


> Thank you for helping us in the search of a solution. That's nice of you.
> I have to slightly disagree, it's not crap yet, it can be rebuild if needed. The seating of the sealing is intact.


remember, it isn't done yet: "you can always break it worse"


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Are the bearings still good in the cylinder ?


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

UpNorthMowing said:


> Are the bearings still good in the cylinder ?


I understand you're referring to the eye rod. I'll check tomorrow. You brought that before, I remember.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> Send this guy a e-mail,
> I bet he knows a guy or he is the guy.
> 
> https://www.alpinesmith-multihog.com/


Thank you very much.
Nice Pronovost snow blower. I have one for the Holder, 5' wide and 1000 pounds of steel. Good strong chain and robust sprocket.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Holder carry no parts.
Only option is to buy a new cylinder.
Confirmed today via email with quotation for a new cylinder.

Please, allow me to recover my breath...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Robert from the Soo said:


> Holder carry no parts.
> Only option is to buy a new cylinder.
> Confirmed today via email with quotation for a new cylinder.
> 
> Please, allow me to recover my breath...


My guess, $1200.00


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

2200 + taxes and shipping and handling.


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

Robert from the Soo said:


> Holder carry no parts.
> Only option is to buy a new cylinder.
> Confirmed today via email with quotation for a new cylinder.
> 
> Please, allow me to recover my breath...


hopefully when u got that $$, u had plenty of molson golden or equivalent  in the frig.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

OK... we made a decision... Holder is not gonna have my money... at least not for now.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

UpNorthMowing said:


> 2200 + taxes and shipping and handling.


Just shy of 1000 dollars each and you have to take the medicine because they sale no parts.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> Send this guy a e-mail,
> I bet he knows a guy or he is the guy.
> 
> https://www.alpinesmith-multihog.com/


Thank you very much again. I emailed and the person got back to me in a matter of couple hours. They no longer have the machines, but he mention what happens to one of his customers and that was it. We are gonna try something and when and if we finish, I'll let you guys know exactly how it ended and how much money we saved in the end... if it works as we planed.
Wish me luck, cause we need it, a lot.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Robert from the Soo said:


> OK... we made a decision... Holder is not gonna have my money... at least not for now.
> 
> View attachment 205462


Oh boy. In for progress pics


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

The anticipation is killing me


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I don't know what the costs are, but here's my 2 cents...

I would examine the piston very carefully. Looking at the photos, I think you will have a problem getting an O-ring to live in that environment. If the pisiton is scrap, then I would have a machine shop turn the piston off the rod, using a 3 or 4 jaw on the rod-end side and a live center in the tailstock on the other. After replacing the seals, make a new piston without grooves very slightly oversize, weld it on, and then machine the grooves and machine or grind it parallel. 

If the piston is OK, then cut-off the rod-end, repair the assembly, and re-weld the rod end back on. 

One question I have looking at the rod end is whether the bearing is held in place in the rod-end with a ring of some sort, or if it is swaged into place.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I don't know what the costs are, but here's my 2 cents...
> 
> I would examine the piston very carefully. Looking at the photos, I think you will have a problem getting an O-ring to live in that environment. If the pisiton is scrap, then I would have a machine shop turn the piston off the rod, using a 3 or 4 jaw on the rod-end side and a live center in the tailstock on the other. After replacing the seals, make a new piston without grooves very slightly oversize, weld it on, and then machine the grooves and machine or grind it parallel.
> 
> ...


I cannot comment on the older cylinders but on the newer ones the bearings are held in with a snap ring similar to this.









Reason is that a regular snap ring will interfere with the movement of the bearing.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

UpNorthMowing said:


> I cannot comment on the older cylinders but on the newer ones the bearings are held in with a snap ring similar to this.
> View attachment 205474
> 
> 
> Reason is that a regular snap ring will interfere with the movement of the bearing.


It looked like there might be one of those, but I wasn't sure if it was just a spot of grease on the edge creating an illusion.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It looked like there might be one of those, but I wasn't sure if it was just a spot of grease on the edge creating an illusion.


There is a round (1/16) spring ring holding the part 34 where the cylinder head threads on.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I don't know what the costs are, but here's my 2 cents...
> 
> I would examine the piston very carefully. Looking at the photos, I think you will have a problem getting an O-ring to live in that environment. If the pisiton is scrap, then I would have a machine shop turn the piston off the rod, using a 3 or 4 jaw on the rod-end side and a live center in the tailstock on the other. After replacing the seals, make a new piston without grooves very slightly oversize, weld it on, and then machine the grooves and machine or grind it parallel.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your advice. The shop quoted $ 300 to machine a new piston and then it has to be welded all will add up to about 500 with seals. All options are on the table.

Keep your eyes on the chimney, we should have white smoke today... Well at least will be some smoke, maybe not exactly white, but smoke for sure.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I'm still not understanding how the section with the O-ring in the above post fits into the cylinder, since it appears to be larger that the threads. I could imaging that it comes in from the bottom of the cylinder, but the parts diagram doesn't seem to indicate that that part is removable.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

It's extremely hard to get the smoke back in the cylinder once it gets out.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

OP did you try calling any of the other dealers on the dealer locator page& Many of them are located in Canada. Some have their own websites they could have their own parts inventory or old parts on the shelf or a scrap machine outback that you can get your parts from?

Or are you just trying to deal with holder in Germany


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I'm still not understanding how the section with the O-ring in the above post fits into the cylinder, since it appears to be larger that the threads. I could imaging that it comes in from the bottom of the cylinder, but the parts diagram doesn't seem to indicate that that part is removable.


Thank you for your input. The part 34, what you see as aluminum threaded goes in the cylinder by the eyelid end, and it slides over the rod/ram/shaft or the shaft strokes in the center of it. As it's mounted on the shaft or rod, the rod itself has welded on one end the piston and in the other the eyelid. The part 34 is threaded in the cylinder tube and then secured with a spring ring which you can see in the picture. This part 34 has one miserable seal inside that slides on the rod a million times weekly (rod seal) and a tiny wiper seal. It's not the greatest cylinder let me tell you, but of course I understand near to nothing and I've been very generous about myself.
Now, the seals inside the cylinder are not proprietorship, meaning are not branded Holder, which makes the whole thing more interesting.
Please see the attached picture...


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> OP did you try calling any of the other dealers on the dealer locator page& Many of them are located in Canada. Some have their own websites they could have their own parts inventory or old parts on the shelf or a scrap machine outback that you can get your parts from?
> 
> Or are you just trying to deal with holder in Germany


At the moment, I know that Holder has the replacement cylinder, but I need the fortitude to pull out my wallet... which is weak right now.
I contacted the closest dealership and they resort me to Holder.ca.
I emailed a couple places to not avail with the exception of the link you've facilitated. The person responded in the same tone that we are playing.
Now, we are gonna take a break, we order 25 pounds of meat and a keg from the beer store and as soon as we take care of that we got to go back to work, things are gonna come out straight, you'll see.

I'll keep you posted.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I'm still not understanding how the section with the O-ring in the above post fits into the cylinder, since it appears to be larger that the threads. I could imaging that it comes in from the bottom of the cylinder, but the parts diagram doesn't seem to indicate that that part is removable.


It threads into the cylinder and the larger part of the body following the threaded part is outside the cylinder and the same size of the cylinder tube. You introduce the piston into the cylinder and push it in, then thread the part 34 as it is a cap and then you secured it with the spring ring. The wipe seal in this part is a piece of rubberized rag and last as much as a fart in a bottle... Sad but the honest truth.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

How much $ was the quote from holder ?


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

UpNorthMowing said:


> How much $ was the quote from holder ?


Just shy of $ 1000 each cylinder.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Total success!
1- Wack the cylinder on the head to release the spring safety ring.
2- Wack the cylinder on the head again just in case.
3- Unscrew counterclockwise the head and pull the piston out the cavity.
4- Cut off the eyelid to free the outer end of the shaft-rod-ram.
5- Slide off part 34 which is the threaded part on the head.
6- Pick off all the seals around and inside the threaded bulge.
7- Replace all seals around the piston.
8- One seal is not gonna slide in place. Pay a shop 5 bucks to fix it.
9- Weld the eyelid in place taking care of direction and parallel.
10 Slide piston in cylinder cavity.
11 Reverse back in place al threads and pins you've removed.

You are done.

Cost:
4 hours labor.
5 dollars for use of special tool to install seal Turcon-Glyd Ring.
Saw blade. $ 15.00
Couple welding sticks. $ 10.00
Carburetor cleaner. $ 8.00
One gallon varsol. $ 15.00
One gallon cleaning solution for parts wash. $ 15.00
Two sets of rings $ 190.00

Add another three hours work for disassembling and reassembling the steering system. Lubricate.

Go over once again to make sure no pieces are lost or if you have a couple bolts or pins in the parts washing tray.

Fire up the Holder and away you go.

Test... Test again... Check again for any missing of defective connection.

Total success.

Add:
25 pounds best meat you can buy.
Two kegs of beer icy cold.

Invite your friends over for a cold one!

Thank you very much. specially to Aerospace Eng, Hydromaster, UpNorthMowing, the Suburbanite and all members that had the courage of pitching in with ideas and info.

Thank you guys!


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Total success!
1- Wack the cylinder on the head to release the spring safety ring.
2- Wack the cylinder on the head again just in case.
3- Unscrew counterclockwise the head and pull the piston out the cavity.
4- Cut off the eyelid to free the outer end of the shaft-rod-ram.
5- Slide off part 34 which is the threaded part on the head.
6- Pick off all the seals around and inside the threaded bulge.
7- Replace all seals around the piston.
8- One seal is not gonna slide in place. Pay a shop 5 bucks to fix it.
9- Weld the eyelid in place taking care of direction and parallel.
10 Slide piston in cylinder cavity.
11 Reverse back in place al threads and pins you've removed.

You are done.

Cost:
4 hours labor.
5 dollars for use of special tool to install seal Turcon-Glyd Ring.
Saw blade. $ 15.00
Couple welding sticks. $ 10.00
Carburetor cleaner. $ 8.00
One gallon varsol. $ 15.00
One gallon cleaning solution for parts wash. $ 15.00
Two sets of rings $ 190.00

Add another three hours work for disassembling and reassembling the steering system. Lubricate.

Go over once again to make sure no pieces are lost or if you have a couple bolts or pins in the parts washing tray.

Fire up the Holder and away you go.

Test... Test again... Check again for any missing of defective connection.

Total success.

Add:
25 pounds best meat you can buy.
Two kegs of beer icy cold.

Invite your friends over for a cold one!

Thank you very much. specially to Aerospace Eng, Hydromaster, UpNorthMowing, the Suburbanite and all members that had the courage of pitching in with ideas and info.

Thank you guys!


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

Robert, Glad to see your up and running, ready for snow !!.... Enjoy your barbecue and 's. Post pics in off topic/ Random food Thumbs Up


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Robert from the Soo said:


> Thank you for your input. The part 34, what you see as aluminum threaded goes in the cylinder by the eyelid end, and it slides over the rod/ram/shaft or the shaft strokes in the center of it. As it's mounted on the shaft or rod, the rod itself has welded on one end the piston and in the other the eyelid. The part 34 is threaded in the cylinder tube and then secured with a spring ring which you can see in the picture. This part 34 has one miserable seal inside that slides on the rod a million times weekly (rod seal) and a tiny wiper seal. It's not the greatest cylinder let me tell you, but of course I understand near to nothing and I've been very generous about myself.
> Now, the seals inside the cylinder are not proprietorship, meaning are not branded Holder, which makes the whole thing more interesting.
> Please see the attached picture...
> 
> View attachment 205489


This looks like what I thought it should be, but the pictures make it look like the O-ring section below the threads is bigger than the threads, which would make it geometrically impossible to insert. Optical delusion on my part, I guess.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Avalanche 2500 said:


> Robert, Glad to see your up and running, ready for snow !!.... Enjoy your barbecue and 's. Post pics in off topic/ Random food Thumbs Up


Thank you. I did not take a pic of the job progress because I was busy running around, but honestly, it's a very straight forward work, you will rarely find a bumper stopper hiding in the snow. Very easy.

I found, I believe, three members that described the way to fix the cylinder and they were all right on the nail head.

Probably if I would have searched a bit more deeply I could find cylinders, new or used for a better price, but there is a moral in all this ordeal...


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

Aerospace Eng said:


> This looks like what I thought it should be, but the pictures make it look like the O-ring section below the threads is bigger than the threads, which would make it geometrically impossible to insert. Optical delusion on my part, I guess.


Probably my pictures were not descriptive enough. The pictures were taken under the sun but the parts were not clean properly, easy to get confused, but it's a very straight job.

Oliver, the person doing the work was ready to do it the way we ended moving forward from the beginning... he said, forget Holder and forget the phone, let's cut the eyelid, move the part out pick the seals... I'll do that while you go to pick up a new set of seals and rings... I was doubtious but Oliver has been doing this job for more than 30 years and he knows well.

Let me tell you, very robust cylinders and I'm sure those cylinders are made by Weber Hydraulik, good material that will last forever if you know this trick about how to rebuild them... expensive though.

Thank you AE, cause you come out with the same solution we were evaluating, but you know how to pull wood out the bushes. Thank you very much for your encouragement.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Absolutely great news.


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## Robert from the Soo (Jul 22, 2020)

fireball said:


> Absolutely great news.


Thank you fireball. 
Never get scared when you're handling red hot iron...


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