# New Concrete



## RONK (Jan 22, 2008)

I have a property with new concrete walks,what ice melt product can I use that won't damage the new concrete?Thanks.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

Use straight salt, I do with no problems.


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## Ne1 (Jan 15, 2007)

In my experience doing sites that are new is that using salt the first year will void all warranty that property owner has from contractor.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

All depends on temperature.


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## 98Chevy2500 (Nov 27, 2005)

Salt it heavy and get it dry before nightfall, you won't have any problems.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

98Chevy2500;1833236 said:


> Salt it heavy and get it dry before nightfall, you won't have any problems.


What????.........Please go into further detail....


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Defcon 5;1833278 said:


> What????.........Please go into further detail....


Yea what if all that salt gets hungry for a midnight snack??? That new concrete is a goner! :salute:


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Bossman 92;1833285 said:


> Yea what if all that salt gets hungry for a midnight snack??? That new concrete is a goner! :salute:


:laughing:...Its not only "Hungry" salt we have to worry about....Now its "Heavy" salt....


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Any deicing product can harm concrete. Mag and cal are chemically worse then salt. What typically destroys the walks is the liquid refreezing. The ice expands and messes up the surface. Use a good shovel or blower to get to the surface and only use deicers when absolutely necessary.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

lilweeds;1833518 said:


> Any deicing product can harm concrete. Mag and cal are chemically worse then salt. What typically destroys the walks is the liquid refreezing. The ice expands and messes up the surface. Use a good shovel or blower to get to the surface and only use deicers when absolutely necessary.


Any links for mag being worse?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

lilweeds;1833518 said:


> Any deicing product can harm concrete. Mag and cal are chemically worse then salt. What typically destroys the walks is the liquid refreezing. The ice expands and messes up the surface. Use a good shovel or blower to get to the surface and only use deicers when absolutely necessary.


Not as much chemically worse than Salt.....It's the heat they create that could cause some issues



Whiffyspark;1833526 said:


> Any links for mag being worse?


Cement.org.....They have some articles that are pretty good.....You might have to do some searching.......


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I need some popcorn.

BTW, I've seen new concrete that had no treatment spall the the first winter. That should give the OP a hint.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1833595 said:


> I need some popcorn.


You need to go out and put the cover on your Dodge and give her a kiss Goodnight.....:salute:


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1833595 said:


> I need some popcorn.
> 
> BTW, I've seen new concrete that had no treatment spall the the first winter. That should give the OP a hint.


Wasn't trying to start anything just curious. We use mag for sidewalks always have


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## 98Chevy2500 (Nov 27, 2005)

Defcon 5;1833287 said:


> :laughing:...Its not only "Hungry" salt we have to worry about....Now its "Heavy" salt....


Better be careful, the weight might crack it!


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Got that right Mark. I'm always amazed on the damage a dripping gutter does to concrete.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Whiffyspark;1833637 said:


> Wasn't trying to start anything just curious. We use mag for sidewalks always have


It wasn't you, these discussions almost always turn really interesting. Not yet on this one.


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

little surprised here , I thought most of us knew about the freeze / thaw cycle and how water enters the cracks or joints of concrete , freezes overnite or for days , then a quick thaw will crack it while it tries to move upward .
calcium is highly recommended and stays wet way below 0* on any concrete , calcium is also an additive of concrete. we still do use salt on concrete when temps are just below freezing .


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Citytow;1834967 said:


> little surprised here , I thought most of us knew about the freeze / thaw cycle and how water enters the cracks or joints of concrete , freezes overnite or for days , then a quick thaw will crack it while it tries to move upward .
> calcium is highly recommended and stays wet way below 0* on any concrete , calcium is also an additive of concrete. we still do use salt on concrete when temps are just below freezing .


And how many people really need calcium (and its associated issues) because their pavement temps are at 0 so often?

I've salted concrete that was installed the previous couple months and never had a problem. Nothing to do with salt or calcium vs. concrete.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1834996 said:


> And how many people really need calcium (and its associated issues) because their pavement temps are at 0 so often?
> 
> I've salted concrete that was installed the previous couple months and never had a problem. Nothing to do with salt or calcium vs. concrete.


.............................


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;1834996 said:


> And how many people really need calcium (and its associated issues) because their pavement temps are at 0 so often?
> 
> I've salted concrete that was installed the previous couple months and never had a problem. Nothing to do with salt or calcium vs. concrete.


And away we go....


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1834944 said:


> It wasn't you, these discussions almost always turn really interesting. Not yet on this one.


One of the reasons we use mag is because it seems to reduce spring damage in turf. We use drop spreaders where necessary, but you know how it is with employees.

I may be just talking out of my ass. It's what I was taught and have always went by it. To me it's not rocket science


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## 98Chevy2500 (Nov 27, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;1834996 said:


> And how many people really need calcium (and its associated issues) because their pavement temps are at 0 so often?
> 
> I've salted concrete that was installed the previous couple months and never had a problem. Nothing to do with salt or calcium vs. concrete.


Hey, knock off the common sense!


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I always just go back to the fact that we store a couple thousand tons of salt on concrete (a week after it was poured) surrounded by a bunch of blocks that were made from junk concrete and i've never seen any problems. Maybe the redimix plant fed it so it wasn't hungry?


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1835310 said:


> And to whom was this directed?


I'm assuming me. But that doesn't say anything about salt/mag and plant life so?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Whiffyspark;1833526 said:


> Any links for mag being worse?


The question always asked is: "so how does the magnesium chloride actually damage the concrete". According to Peter Snow, a concrete specialist from Burns Concrete in Idaho, the problem begins as the magnesium chloride comes into contact with the now deiced concrete surface and remains contained in the melt water, and permeates into the concrete. While deicing salts containing sodium, potassium and calcium are chemically innocuous to concrete, this is not true of magnesium. The magnesium ions accumulate and react with the cementitious compound calcium- silicate-hydrate converting it to magnesium-silicate-hydrate (or a mineral called brucite), which is non-cementitious in nature. In other words, a fundamental major mineralogical product of solidified concrete has now been chemically altered (completely changed). Formation of magnesium-silicatehydrate breaks down the "glue" that binds aggregates together and concrete surfaces begin to deteriorate. The net effect is we now have a chemical and physical attack that concrete is not designed to withstand, nor be subjected to.

Studies, funded by the Iowa Department of Transportation DOT), have been undertaken by the Department of Geological and Atmospheric Sciences at the Iowa State University, concluded that magnesium chloride produced significant concrete crumbling, fracturing and proved to be the most deleterious. There experiments took several cores of actual road concrete and subjected them to the wet/dry freeze thaw cycles they would normally undergo in winter conditions. looked at different de-icers and found that magnesium chloride will actually decrease the service life of concretes.

Logan Graham
Junior Division Environmental Sciences
The Effects of Magnesium Chloride Road De-icer on Plants
The purpose of this experiment was to find out if magnesium chloride road de-icer had any effects on plants. The procedure of the experiment involved spreading rye grass seeds on potting soil, dividing the soil into four plots, and spraying one plot with just
water, and the other three plots with varying amounts of magnesium chloride road de-icer solution and water. The data revealed that the seeds sprayed only
with water sprouted into grass plants, and the seeds sprayed with magnesium chloride road de-icer solution did not sprout at all. In particular, the seeds in Plot 3 did not sprout even though they were sprayed with only 1mL (one squirt) of magnesium chloride road de-icer solution at the beginning of the experiment, and with just water for the remainder of
the experiment. Additionally, the grass plants in Plot2, which sprouted when sprayed with just water, died within 24 hours of being sprayed with magnesium chloride road de-icer solution. In conclusion, the experiment appears to demonstrate that magnesium
chloride road de-icer may be harmful to plants. If additional experiments prove this is true, then perhaps the use of magnesium chloride road de-icer should be reconsided
http://www.csef.colostate.edu/2009_Abstracts/Graham_Logan.pdf

but I'm sure you will come back and qualify your statement that you were/are using
CALCIUM MAGNESIUM ACETATE
which is far from ,MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE HEXAHYDRATE


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Citytow;1835486 said:


> I could return the post with a copy n paste also , but i wont .
> post totals up in the right corner (5054) don't equal experience .
> stupid or genius , the pension ($$$) is still the same . that's everywhere !


Welcome back Santos, it's been awhile.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Personally, I'm a assphalt kind of guy


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