# New business in snow removal



## MUoffroader (Oct 1, 2014)

I hope to find some good input here.
I own a company doing general handyman work and have always wanted to get into the residential snow removal side of things. I live in central Missouri so our show is minor, and it all usually melts within a week. I have an 01 suburban 3/4 ton 4wd and a Toro 24" self propelled snow thrower. I want to start picking up clients to do driveway and sidewalk cleaning. Many companies in town will do large parking lots or streets but not up to the clients door. I believe there is a huge market for it. Any input would be great.

I work in a machine and welding shop, so I do a lot of fabrication. I would like to build a 7.5' plow to go on the front of the suburban to do minor residential driveways-no commercial lots or anything like that. The plow board would be 1/4' aluminum and I have a plethora of 3/8 x 1.5' mild steel to use for the frame. The main plow frame would have six uprights and a strap on the top and bottom. The mount would attach in two pre existing holes in the frame of the truck and be lifted by a winch. All of the sidewalk work would be done with the 24" toro and good ole' elbow grease. 
Questions:
-Will the 1/4" aluminum on top of the main frame be strong enough?
-Would I need two pieces of the 3/8 strap for the bottom of the blade? Should I make one replaceable?(I have no idea how long it would take to wear a plow blade in my circumstance)
-Do I need power tilt, or is manual locking tilt good enough?
-Any suggestions/tips on good, reliable snow shovels? Any better method to do residential sidewalks?

Thanks it advance for all of the help.

I've attached a few pictures of a similar blade I built for a small tractor at work and my sketches for the truck blade.
My design ideas









Previous blade I built.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Just gunna throw this out there, why don't you just buy a used plow that already fits your trk?


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## MUoffroader (Oct 1, 2014)

I would buy a decent used plow if I found one for the right price. I enjoy fabrication and I have the tools and materials to do it with. All the used plows I have found are around $2,000 and I believe I can make one for around $200, which is a whole lot less risk in my eyes. Also, since I don't have an established snow removal business I don't want to be sitting on a $2000 plow that I only made $500 with.

Thanks for the feedback!


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

I'd suggest getting a few clients using your snowblower & a few shovels first, then after a year if you still want to go deeper into the industry, then look into getting a plow.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Not saying you can't, but what if something goes wrong. How many mounting points on the trk frame are you going to have? What is your lowest ground clearance? Manual angle? If I think I understand, you want to use aluminum as your winch plate? That will bend. 
Cutting would need to be replaceable. 
Not sure I understand what a top or bottom strap is?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Another thought, if you bought the plow you could try and sub for a company. That could pay for the plow in a year or two


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## MUoffroader (Oct 1, 2014)

BC Handyman-Thank you for the input. I hadn't really considered just doing in with snow blower and shovels. Any input on the best snow blower? Or snow shovels? And any good or desirable walk behind salt spreader?

Dieselss- I understand that precautions must be taken and failure is much more likely with a fabricated item. I would have two mounts to the truck frame with 1/2" bolts. Lowest ground clearance of the truck or the plow design?
I might not have explained correctly-the entire plow frame would be made of 3/8 x 1.5" mild steel. The two "straps" I talked about would be a piece of that 3/8 material at the top and bottom of the plow. The 1/4" aluminum would be used only for the plow board, bolted to the 3/8 material of the frame.
Manual angle-tilt on the blade instead of hydraulic. It would require getting out of the truck each time I wanted to change the angle of the blade. That is how the snow blades on our tractors at work function.
I don't guess I understand the idea of being a sub for a company-do most commercial companies contract out if they don't have enough trucks to get their jobs done?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Subcontractors.....
I own a plow company, I don't want to buy another plow truck for this year. I ask if anyone with there own truck with plow would like to work for me. I will pay you X amount an hour. You will plow these accounts that I have set up for you to plow. I need them done by this time. And at this dept. 
If you take the job you will have to provide, workers compensation insurance or a waiver, and company/plowing insurance on top.of your regular auto insurance.
...that's generally how "subing" works 
BCs idea was good as well


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Two half inch bolts will never hold up to a 5000# plus truck ramming into stuff. Remember a plow is basically a piece of equipment we bolt onto a truck and go ram crap for hours on end. Now add in you will driving around with this liability hanging off the front of your truck. Not trying to down play your fabrication abilities, just point out that building a plow for a truck is much different than one for a tractor. If you feel that you really want to build a plow I suggest looking at actual plows and coping them.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

kimber750;1838698 said:


> Two half inch bolts will never hold up to a 5000# plus truck ramming into stuff. Remember a plow is basically a piece of equipment we bolt onto a truck and go ram crap for hours on end. Now add in you will driving around with this liability hanging off the front of your truck. Not trying to down play your fabrication abilities, just point out that building a plow for a truck is much different than one for a tractor. If you feel that you really want to build a plow I suggest looking at actual plows and coping them.


X2.....
If you were just planning on doing your own drive then build one, if you plan to plow commercially you need to buy that was engineered to do the job and have the ability to buy replacement parts rather than making them. 
If you worried about not being able to cover the cost of a plow then do as BC mentioned. It's a low risk and economical way to get started.

If you're having a hard time finding something local that's in good shape you may have to go on a road trip. 
For what you're doing this http://denver.craigslist.org/for/4688516080.html
would be a good fit, decent price, not obsolete so parts are still available and since you're handy with a welder you can make your own truck mount.


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## Flyboy77 (Jun 23, 2014)

The two types of insurance quoted (commercial auto w/plow and general liability will probably run you $2000 per year. Stay away from the plow if you don't want to go with large investment. 

Ever shoveled a driveway for someone else before/after school, do that with your shovel and snow blower but do more of them quickly and charge more. Get agreements with homeowners of when you should come (2")to shovel or salt. Also can call other plow companies and ask if the have sidewalks they need salted or shoveled. Most parking lots also have sidewalks and steps and the plow owner might rather not get out in the cold or could plow more jobs if he has you shoveling.

In Missouri, you may get more chances to salt than plow depending on temp changes. Ask some of the local plow companies (check yellow pages for the companies, still used for low tech ads seen by many) where they needed help without a plow last winter and meet that need.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

BUFF;1838744 said:


> X2.....
> If you were just planning on doing your own drive then build one, if you plan to plow commercially you need to buy that was engineered to do the job and have the ability to buy replacement parts rather than making them.
> If you worried about not being able to cover the cost of a plow then do as BC mentioned. It's a low risk and economical way to get started.
> 
> ...


He not looking there is a lot plows on craigs list in Columbia trust me Im a craigslist junky I flip a lot of stuff from craigslist


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

MUoffroader;1838554 said:


> BC Handyman-Thank you for the input. I hadn't really considered just doing in with snow blower and shovels. Any input on the best snow blower? Or snow shovels? And any good or desirable walk behind salt spreader?
> 
> Dieselss- I understand that precautions must be taken and failure is much more likely with a fabricated item. I would have two mounts to the truck frame with 1/2" bolts. Lowest ground clearance of the truck or the plow design?
> I might not have explained correctly-the entire plow frame would be made of 3/8 x 1.5" mild steel. The two "straps" I talked about would be a piece of that 3/8 material at the top and bottom of the plow. The 1/4" aluminum would be used only for the plow board, bolted to the 3/8 material of the frame.
> ...


Sub's is the back bone of every large company. Without them, they wouldn't be where they are today.


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## Flyboy77 (Jun 23, 2014)

Use a craigslist app for a wider search(add multiple cities), being halfway between St. Louis and Kansas City and then widen your search term ("plow") and put titles only. There are def lots of deals if you skim frequently, like AntlerArt06 said.


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## MUoffroader (Oct 1, 2014)

Flyboy and Antlerart-I am on craigslist daily and make a good part of my living by flipping items, so I know how to search craigslist.

I am really liking the idea of subing for a company-I didn't understand there was that much of a need for it, and that is why I come to a place people with experience to ask questions.
So is the problem with fabbing your own plow the reliability? The lack of replacement parts? The factor of the unknown (will this thing just fall apart and shatter)? The reason I ask is because many are suggesting buy a plow and fab a mount, that still involves fabrication. And btw-I originally planned bolting the plow to the frame of the truck with six 1/2" bolts and then making the up/down pivot point further out. What size hinges (bolts) do most truck plows use for their up/down and side/side pivot points?
Thanks for all of the input, both positive and negative. I appreciate it.

Also, would it be worth it to buy these http://kansascity.craigslist.org/for/4663531181.html . The guy said he would take $600 and I could build a mount and then sell the second blade.
If I'm going a route like this, what is the best pump/controller? Or is that a question like chevy or dodge?


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

MUoffroader;1838926 said:


> Flyboy and Antlerart-I am on craigslist daily and make a good part of my living by flipping items, so I know how to search craigslist.
> 
> I am really liking the idea of subing for a company-I didn't understand there was that much of a need for it, and that is why I come to a place people with experience to ask questions.
> So is the problem with fabbing your own plow the reliability? The lack of replacement parts? The factor of the unknown (will this thing just fall apart and shatter)? The reason I ask is because many are suggesting buy a plow and fab a mount, that still involves fabrication. And btw-I originally planned bolting the plow to the frame of the truck with six 1/2" bolts and then making the up/down pivot point further out. What size hinges (bolts) do most truck plows use for their up/down and side/side pivot points?
> ...


If you are considering trying to be a sub a name brand plow setup would be best. The contractor will base pay or if they will even higher you by what equipment you have. Never been a big fan of the SnoWay plows. In my mind not a commercial use plow.

We when say build a mount we mean to copy the design made for that particular plow. As for the pivot point all plow are a bit different. Meyer I believe is around 5/8", basically a hitch pin. Fisher uses a stepped pin roughly 1".


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Those are just the moldboards not a whole plow. I'd sprint from that


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

kimber750;1838932 said:


> We when say build a mount we mean to copy the design made for that particular plow. As for the pivot point all plow are a bit different. Meyer I believe is around 5/8", basically a hitch pin. Fisher uses a stepped pin roughly 1".


Kimber thx for adding clarity, in addition the mount is very simple geometry to recreate and straight forward to build.


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## MUoffroader (Oct 1, 2014)

Ok, I think I got it on the truck plow-buy a good used one and sub for a company or don't worry about a truck.

Another question-what is best for sidewalk/driveways? I have read several posts and seen many different ideas. This will be only me most of the time, and no major capital for a skid steer. I have access to self propelled walk behind units (BCS tractors, really handy). Would it be worth it to get a power broom for the front of one of those? Most of our snows are sub 2 inch with a couple in the 2-6 inch range. I have the 24" Toro two stage for the bigger snows, but it doesn't work too great in the little stuff. Would it be worth it to build a V-plow for a walk behind unit? Or use a small tractor (I have access to) with a V-plow?
Also, what is best for spreading salt on driveways and sidewalks? Spread by hand, drop spreader, broadcast spreader?


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

MUoffroader;1838975 said:


> Ok, I think I got it on the truck plow-buy a good used one and sub for a company or don't worry about a truck.
> 
> Another question-what is best for sidewalk/driveways? I have read several posts and seen many different ideas. This will be only me most of the time, and no major capital for a skid steer. I have access to self propelled walk behind units (BCS tractors, really handy). Would it be worth it to get a power broom for the front of one of those? Most of our snows are sub 2 inch with a couple in the 2-6 inch range. I have the 24" Toro two stage for the bigger snows, but it doesn't work too great in the little stuff. Would it be worth it to build a V-plow for a walk behind unit? Or use a small tractor (I have access to) with a V-plow?
> Also, what is best for spreading salt on driveways and sidewalks? Spread by hand, drop spreader, broadcast spreader?


I will start be saying I do very few driveways, mostly friends and family and all larger driveways over 200' long. Now my truck even sucks on these larger driveways. I need a football field to turn around. So IMO a small maneuverable vehicle with good visibility would be ideal for drives. I also recommend a nice single stage blower. They are light, fast and clean the surface very well. Tractor requires loading and unloading and pulling a trailer or ramps for a pickup. Do you really want to deal with that?

As for salt we use broadcast spreader but we are doing large commercial lots. For any of the smaller stuff I do the owner salts. Again these are friends or family and I dont normally even charge them.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

MUoffroader;1838975 said:


> Ok, I think I got it on the truck plow-buy a good used one and sub for a company or don't worry about a truck.
> 
> Another question-what is best for sidewalk/driveways? I have read several posts and seen many different ideas. This will be only me most of the time, and no major capital for a skid steer. I have access to self propelled walk behind units (BCS tractors, really handy). Would it be worth it to get a power broom for the front of one of those? Most of our snows are sub 2 inch with a couple in the 2-6 inch range. I have the 24" Toro two stage for the bigger snows, but it doesn't work too great in the little stuff. Would it be worth it to build a V-plow for a walk behind unit? Or use a small tractor (I have access to) with a V-plow?
> Also, what is best for spreading salt on driveways and sidewalks? Spread by hand, drop spreader, broadcast spreader?


Kimber brings up some very valid points and here's some more detail.

Providing all you're doing in straight in and out of the drive a full size vehicle isn't bad, when you start dealing with circle drives, etc.... they're a PITA. Ideally for resi's a narrow, short wheel base pick up type vehicle is what you want like a Toyota Tacoma or to go old school a Jeep Scrambler.

Visibility is a must and this is where the Suburban falls short along with not being able to easily load and unload shovels, salt buckets, etc..... You'll never keep the cab warm enough to keep the windows clear and you'll also trash out the interior too. I'm not saying it can't be done with the Burban it's just not the preferred vehicle in commercial plowing.

In a previous post you asked about shovels, a good shovel is a must but I've found one shovel doesn't did it all and I use two types. For light snows (<6" ) and open areas I use a 36" wide "Snow Plow" http://www.jmenterprises.com/. For heavier snows (>6") and tighter areas I use a 24" wide Wolverine FD24PP http://www.wolverinehandtools.com/products/snow-tools/ .

I run a single stage Honda http://powerequipment.honda.com/snowblowers/models/hs720am , it's light, easy to maneuver/load/unload handle wet snow very well, has no problem with 12-14" snow and it leaves a clean surface. Typically I've found shoveling is faster than using the blower but you also wear out quicker if all you're doing is shoveling.

For small "in town" resi's I just spread by hand like you were feeding chickens. Sure you can use a Walk Behind but time you spend filling, loading and unloading it's faster to feed the chickens.


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## MUoffroader (Oct 1, 2014)

I assume most of what I will be doing is duplexes, so up to 50'x20' driveways with the sidewalk up to the door, usually no steps. I am thinking a small walk behind unit with a blade, the toro two stage snow blower, a couple shovels and some hand spread salt would make for a good business start. I have a small trailer that I can easily load on and off that would work great. Then for the first year I could decide if that works or if I need something else, test the waters. Thoughts? Ideas? 
I am located in central Missouri. When doing small residential units, what is a good starting price to charge? Do you charge by the hour or by the job?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

MUoffroader;1839048 said:


> I assume most of what I will be doing is duplexes, so up to 50'x20' driveways with the sidewalk up to the door, usually no steps. I am thinking a small walk behind unit with a blade, the toro two stage snow blower, a couple shovels and some hand spread salt would make for a good business start. I have a small trailer that I can easily load on and off that would work great. Then for the first year I could decide if that works or if I need something else, test the waters. Thoughts? Ideas?
> I am located in central Missouri. When doing small residential units, what is a good starting price to charge? Do you charge by the hour or by the job?


Will there be cars parked in these driveways or does the HOA require vehicles to be parked in the garage? If you have to maneuver around parked vehicles I'd use a shovel, less chance of vehicle damage and it'd be faster.
You'll find the time spent loading/unloading along strapping/instrapping the equipment you'll be faster just shoveling, two guys should be able to shovel a 50'X20' drive with up to 6" in about 6-7 minutes. Use the blowers when you get a sizeable storm and not as your primary method.

Rates vary from as little as a miles away, in my area what you described would be $35.00 per clearing up to 6", 6" plus it's go for $45.00 per and this includes de-icer.


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## Flyboy77 (Jun 23, 2014)

BUFF;1839010
In a previous post you asked about shovels said:


> http://www.jmenterprises.com/[/URL]. For heavier snows (>6") and tighter areas I use a 24" wide Wolverine FD24PP http://www.wolverinehandtools.com/products/snow-tools/ .
> 
> BUFF, so for the 36" thesnowplow, do you use the one with 2 handles and wheels or the one handle pusher? Those look awesome!


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Flyboy77;1840297 said:


> BUFF;1839010
> In a previous post you asked about shovels said:
> 
> 
> ...


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## MUoffroader (Oct 1, 2014)

So if I were going to start a business just doing driveways and sidewalks (residential) with a snowblower and shovels, what all would I need as far as business costs go? I am in the process of obtaining a business license for general handyman work. Would only general liability insurance be needed since there is no road vehicle being used? How is general liability charged/rates? Do I need a policy on each house I clear? Would it hold up to have each client sign a "business is not liable" agreement, professionally drafted? 
If I were to get a plow and sub for a company, what insurance would I need on that end?
A lot of questions, but I hope someone can help me out. I like working for myself, giving good service, and I am not scared of a little bit of prep work.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

MUoffroader;1841896 said:


> So if I were going to start a business just doing driveways and sidewalks (residential) with a snowblower and shovels, what all would I need as far as business costs go? I am in the process of obtaining a business license for general handyman work. Would only general liability insurance be needed since there is no road vehicle being used? How is general liability charged/rates? Do I need a policy on each house I clear? Would it hold up to have each client sign a "business is not liable" agreement, professionally drafted?
> If I were to get a plow and sub for a company, what insurance would I need on that end?
> A lot of questions, but I hope someone can help me out. I like working for myself, giving good service, and I am not scared of a little bit of prep work.


General liability with snow rider. Commercial auto policy that includes snow removal if you get a plow. Also incorporate to protect your personal assets.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

MUoffroader;1841896 said:


> So if I were going to start a business just doing driveways and sidewalks (residential) with a snowblower and shovels, what all would I need as far as business costs go? I am in the process of obtaining a business license for general handyman work. Would only general liability insurance be needed since there is no road vehicle being used? How is general liability charged/rates? Do I need a policy on each house I clear? Would it hold up to have each client sign a "business is not liable" agreement, professionally drafted?
> If I were to get a plow and sub for a company, what insurance would I need on that end?
> A lot of questions, but I hope someone can help me out. I like working for myself, giving good service, and I am not scared of a little bit of prep work.


Up front cost would be;
Filing for a LLC to protect your personal assets/family. I had a lawyer do my paperwork cost me about $400.00, you can do it yourself but I choose to use a lawyer. You'll also have a filing fee with the state, I think initially it was $50.00 and a yearly renewal of $10.00 (this is for Colorado).

Talk with your insurance agent for what kind of coverage you need, Mo may have different requirements than other states. Don't skimp on coverage, it can destroy your life in the event of claim. IMO $2m is a good starting point for the type of work your looking at.

When subbing/plowing the contractor typically requires you have your own coverage, at least this has been my experience.

I'd have a lawyer draft the contract you have customers sign, yes you can probably find one online or come up with what you think is needed but there may be state specific things that aren't covered in it that will cost you later down the road.

Equipment: blowers, shovels, walk behind spreader (if deemed necessary), De-Icer. I wouldn't use Rock Salt for Resi's, it's tough on concrete and vegetation. If you have a John Deere Landscapes or a Landscape Supply outfit close by they should sell De-Icer. Don't go to a box store the sell crap at a premium IMO.


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## MUoffroader (Oct 1, 2014)

I'm looking up the steps right now to get an LLC (been looking at getting one for a couple years anyways, I do repair work year round) and asking what general liability insurance will run me. Any ideas/thoughts/suggestions?

Also, on blowers-much of what I have read across the internet suggests 2 stage blowers but most of the guys on here are saying they run single stage. What's the preference? We average 11 snows a year with half being under an inch and the other half being 2-4 inches. We've had one snow each year for the last couple years over six inches. Since I'll be doing mainly resi's I'll prolly trigger at half an inch (if they're paying for it, I'll do the work).

You guys have already been a huge help with constructive responses, I appreciate it a whole bunch.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Single stage are lighter, faster, generally cheaper. Try and look for a used 2 stroke tho.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

MUoffroader;1843719 said:


> I'm looking up the steps right now to get an LLC (been looking at getting one for a couple years anyways, I do repair work year round) and asking what general liability insurance will run me. Any ideas/thoughts/suggestions?
> 
> Also, on blowers-much of what I have read across the internet suggests 2 stage blowers but most of the guys on here are saying they run single stage. What's the preference? We average 11 snows a year with half being under an inch and the other half being 2-4 inches. We've had one snow each year for the last couple years over six inches. Since I'll be doing mainly resi's I'll prolly trigger at half an inch (if they're paying for it, I'll do the work).
> 
> You guys have already been a huge help with constructive responses, I appreciate it a whole bunch.


Cost of G/L varies from region to region, what I pay vs what a guy pays back east is hugely different. As I said before talk with your agent about coverage.



dieselss;1843723 said:


> Single stage are lighter, faster, generally cheaper. Try and look for a used 2 stroke tho.


Single stage is the way to go in most cases, you can just pick up and load, where a 2 stage typically requires ramps.
I switched to a Honda 4stroke and really like it even through I'm a 2 stroke fan.


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## docsgmc (Dec 2, 2007)

MUoffroader with your skills and the the type of snow removal you are looking to do I would build a back blade. 
something like this.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

docsgmc;1843861 said:


> MUoffroader with your skills and the the type of snow removal you are looking to do I would build a back blade.
> something like this.


That old boy in the video probably started plowing that lot when he was in his 30's......
Man is that thing slow, needs Hydraulics.


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