# How to make just 5 gallons of brine from....



## gottaluvplows (Dec 20, 2008)

OK im experimenting again.... (just on my home walks) I just got this 40lb bag of Morton salt blend its Cal. and rock salt mixed and then a bag or morton rock salt....I want to make some liquid does anyone know what i should do to make just 5 gallons of brine from what i have??
also do i have to put anything in it so that it doesnt freeze or since the salt melts down to -15 or so i dont have to add anything else. I hope im not confusing you guys! 

Here's what i got from home depot: (this must be the 25lb?!?!)


----------



## kcplowman (Nov 27, 2009)

Don't know how much calcium is in that mix, but I would guess that about 13 to 15 lbs should get ya pretty close for 5 gals. if it was just straight salt then 11 to 12 pounds. Don't be shy when applying it it can take a good bit sometimes to melt ice.


----------



## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*brine etc.*



gottaluvplows;1000125 said:


> OK im experimenting again.... (just on my home walks) I just got this 40lb bag of Morton salt blend its Cal. and rock salt mixed and then a bag or morton rock salt....I want to make some liquid does anyone know what i should do to make just 5 gallons of brine from what i have??
> also do i have to put anything in it so that it doesnt freeze or since the salt melts down to -15 or so i dont have to add anything else. I hope im not confusing you guys!
> 
> Here's what i got from home depot: (this must be the 25lb?!?!)


just remember the water will boil when the chloride flakes enter the water and stay away from it.


----------



## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

leon;1000223 said:


> just remember the water will boil when the chloride flakes enter the water and stay away from it.


Boil? Are you exaggerating? Or are you trying to stress the importance of caution when using this product? Just curious?


----------



## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*brine*

No I am not exagerating regarding this :waving:

More the point of the chemical reaction when the flakes enter the water as well as the fumes.

that temperature would amount to a simmering boil if it was continous-not that its and issue


----------



## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

leon;1000238 said:


> No I am not exagerating regarding this :waving:


Huh...I've never had mine boil, It hits 160 degrees, but never "boils"


----------



## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

I think you should make the salt brine and ca/cl brine in separate batches, then mix the two liquids.


----------



## gottaluvplows (Dec 20, 2008)

Should i boil the water first or pour cold into a 5 gallon bucket then add 13lbs of cal. and salt blend (action melt) in??????


----------



## kcplowman (Nov 27, 2009)

Don't boil it. Just add the salt and calcium mix in and find a way to keep it aggitated for about 25 to 30 mins and you should be good.just make sure you disolve the whole 13 pounds.


----------



## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

So how would one go about actually knowing what the finish product is ?

It seems there are very specific ratio's that need to be followed to produce either "salt brine" or liquid mag, or cal. From my experience a weak mixture is useless. 
From what I have read any cal over 33% is gonna bring on headaches and heartaches as well. The 26-27% range of cal is a real good ratio (no worries about dropping out in extreme cold, an dstill very effective in sub zero temps) , and really not hard to duplicate in small batches with cal. pellets.
As far as boiling cal pellets in a garbage can, it happens all the time when I mix the materials. Its not a rolling boil, but the mixture is bubbling. Never bothered to stick a thermometer in it.

Make sure you put a lid on the storage container for what ever ya brew up as well


----------



## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

T-MAN;1001106 said:


> So how would one go about actually knowing what the finish product is ?


Thats the million dollar question......
Check it with a hydrometer
Reference to a chart
Correct for temperature( this is more important than you might think )
Adjust mix as necessary

OR

Just guess


----------



## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

deicepro;1001134 said:


> Thats the million dollar question......
> Check it with a hydrometer
> Reference to a chart
> Correct for temperature( this is more important than you might think )
> ...


My question is- If you have no idea what the ratio of pellets and flake is in that blend, how would you read it with a hyrdometer ? It is probably 90%sodium, but that is a stabbing as well.
And Can you "read" a blend on a hyrdometer ? Especially if you have no clue what the percentage of the dry material is 

De-Icepro what would ambient temp have to do with the finished product ? If I use X#s of dry with a pre determined gallons of water it seems to be pretty simple recipe with cal pellets. There is nothing left at the bottom from 98% pellet. No waste/sludge like sodium brine. So pardon my ignorance, but I would think the finished weight of a gallon would be consistent with a hydrometer ? At least within 1%. Not sure how air temp would effect the mix ?
Please elaborate


----------



## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*stuff*

You need a saline refractometer to start
the process and calculate the saline 
concentration to

The salime brine will need to be fully 
diluted by water.

The CC mix would have to fully diluted 
and mixed to disolve in an aqeous solution 
prior to mxing.

The debatre is concentration of both the elements 
by volume.

The amounts used for dust control using calcium 
chloride suld be sufficient for mixing with a salt solution for 
deicing.

The "Caviat Emptor" Buyer Beware part of this alchemy is
simply one of dilution and loss where if the mix was spread 
it would be helped by the use of mason sand applied during
or after the application of the deicing liquid

I will find it in my records and post it for use by the members

leon:waving:


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Hardly seem worth all the trouble....why not just buy what you need???


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

TCLA;1001360 said:


> Hardly seem worth all the trouble....why not just buy what you need???


I said that in a thread a week or so ago...I got spanked....


----------



## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

TCLA;1001360 said:


> Hardly seem worth all the trouble....why not just buy what you need???


The same can be said for "why bother with liquid", just spread a lil more white salt when you need too. 
Or if you have no storage tanks, to keep a supply on hand, thats a good reason. Or if you have no were to store a tank half full or a way to move it off season, thats probably a good reason too. 
Not everyone has yard space or indoor storage to keep adequate supplies of everything on hand. However The ability to whip up 30 gallons of liquid cal, on short order, is probably a good thing for some. 
I dont use that much liquid each event if any. However for extreme cold temps, I like to have that option available without keeping a tote or 2 around.


----------



## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

leon;1001321 said:


> You need a saline refractometer to start
> the process and calculate the saline
> concentration to
> 
> ...


So will the refractor meter be able to read both solutions already blended ?
How does sand help de-iceing ?


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

T-MAN;1001498 said:


> The same can be said for "why bother with liquid", just spread a lil more white salt when you need too.
> 
> Not really....
> 
> ...


No need to over think this or over react....the op only wants 5 gallons. 

5 gal = $1.75


----------



## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

TCLA;1001508 said:


> No need to over think this or over react....the op only wants 5 gallons.
> 
> 5 gal = $1.75


Actually I dont think I overreacted. My response IMO was valid.
The "not really" quote is actually not really accurate either, for a generalized blanket statement. If you spread 1 ton of salt per event why not just spread another 600#s for cold weather ? Seems pretty straight forward to me, rather then messing around with refractory meters, and storage tanks.

Not sure what your spreading at .35 cents a gallon, (purchased in 5 gallon increments) but my guess would be water ?


----------



## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*deicing*

The saline refractometer will give you the saline concentration ANd I believe it has to be recalibrated for calcium chloride.

Thsand is both a traction aid and it holds the liquids in place.creating a small barrier to the liquid and from washing away.


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

T-MAN;1001498 said:


> The same can be said for "why bother with liquid", just spread a lil more white salt when you need too.
> Or if you have no storage tanks, to keep a supply on hand, thats a good reason. Or if you have no were to store a tank half full or a way to move it off season, thats probably a good reason too.
> Not everyone has yard space or indoor storage to keep adequate supplies of everything on hand. However The ability to whip up 30 gallons of liquid cal, on short order, is probably a good thing for some.
> I dont use that much liquid each event if any. However for extreme cold temps, I like to have that option available without keeping a tote or 2 around.





T-MAN;1001518 said:


> Actually I dont think I overreacted. My response IMO was valid.
> The "not really" quote is actually not really accurate either, for a generalized blanket statement. If you spread 1 ton of salt per event why not just spread another 600#s for cold weather ? Seems pretty straight forward to me, rather then messing around with refractory meters, and storage tanks.
> 
> Not sure what your spreading at .35 cents a gallon, (purchased in 5 gallon increments) but my guess would be water ?


Maybe you have a problem focusing.........read the original post. :laughing:

Sounds like he's a budding chemist.


----------



## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

T-MAN;1001277 said:


> My question is- If you have no idea what the ratio of pellets and flake is in that blend, how would you read it with a hyrdometer ? It is probably 90%sodium, but that is a stabbing as well.
> And Can you "read" a blend on a hyrdometer ? Especially if you have no clue what the percentage of the dry material is
> 
> De-Icepro what would ambient temp have to do with the finished product ? If I use X#s of dry with a pre determined gallons of water it seems to be pretty simple recipe with cal pellets. There is nothing left at the bottom from 98% pellet. No waste/sludge like sodium brine. So pardon my ignorance, but I would think the finished weight of a gallon would be consistent with a hydrometer ? At least within 1%. Not sure how air temp would effect the mix ?
> Please elaborate


Well, here goes.....
You can mix cal, mag, and sodium together AFTER they are all each fully diluted and you know what concentration each of them are. Ambient temperature makes a difference in the solution because the hydrometers are calibrated at 60 degrees F, so if you are measuring your liquid at 10 degrees F, it will not measure exactly the same, thus your solution will vary in strength( my best guess without getting too anal, is 6 percent ) so if you think that you have a 29.6 percent solution, you would only have say a 23.6 percent solution. Not the end of the world being off a little bit, until you start mixing two different chlorides together. Water will only hold so much salt until it starts to "fall out" or when the solution becomes "supersaturated", thats when sh** starts to freeze up in the lines.
Now, there are three different type of mag chloride. Pure mag, mag di-hydrate, mag hexa-hydrate. The best is the pure mag( as pure as possible ). The other two, as you might have noticed from their names, have h2o molecules attached to them, which means when you add them to water to dissolve, you are adding mag+water, so it takes more mag to equal your desired percentage, and even more mag hexa-hydrate to dissolve disolve into the same solution.
As for calcium, its best to find Anhydrous calcium chloride. It wont say "anhydrous" on the bag. However the purest cal to date I believe is 94 to 97 percent.
I will only "blend" after I know exactly what percent of each solution that I have. That way i have a baseline for testing other mixes. Did I answer your question?
I must give credit to my brother who is a chemist for 3m. Without his help


----------



## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

TCLA;1001572 said:


> Maybe you have a problem focusing.........read the original post. :laughing:
> 
> Sounds like he's a budding chemist.


*I do suffer from dyslexia, plus I just need to know pumpkin:*



deicepro;1001775 said:


> Well, here goes.....
> You can mix cal, mag, and sodium together AFTER they are all each fully diluted and you know what concentration each of them are. Ambient temperature makes a difference in the solution because the hydrometers are calibrated at 60 degrees F, so if you are measuring your liquid at 10 degrees F, it will not measure exactly the same, thus your solution will vary in strength( my best guess without getting too anal, is 6 percent ) so if you think that you have a 29.6 percent solution, you would only have say a 23.6 percent solution. Not the end of the world being off a little bit, until you start mixing two different chlorides together. Water will only hold so much salt until it starts to "fall out" or when the solution becomes "supersaturated", thats when sh** starts to freeze up in the lines.
> Now, there are three different type of mag chloride. Pure mag, mag di-hydrate, mag hexa-hydrate. The best is the pure mag( as pure as possible ). The other two, as you might have noticed from their names, have h2o molecules attached to them, which means when you add them to water to dissolve, you are adding mag+water, so it takes more mag to equal your desired percentage, and even more mag hexa-hydrate to dissolve disolve into the same solution.
> As for calcium, its best to find Anhydrous calcium chloride. It wont say "anhydrous" on the bag. However the purest cal to date I believe is 94 to 97 percent.
> ...


*Thankyou that does help alot*


----------



## gottaluvplows (Dec 20, 2008)

TCLA;1001360 said:


> Hardly seem worth all the trouble....why not just buy what you need???


i dont know! lol I do buy the brine from this place in south lyon. but i didnt really have anything to do since we didnt have any snow so i was experimenting (NO MATH) just adding water and tons of salt and mixing my problem is it just is not as good as the stuff i buy! (it freezes and it doesnt melt ice) like the stuff i buy lol no surprises there! Dang knock-off Brine


----------



## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Sounds like you should measure / test better? I mix 500-1000 gallons a week, it melts snow, it melts ice, and has yet to freeze? Operator error..............I think.


----------



## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

I never had much luck making salt brine by stirring salt in water. I just couldn't get the test high enough. If you just want to make a small batch, put the end of a garden hose in the bottom of a 5 gal pail, fill the pail with salt, place the pail in a tray or bigger bucket, turn on water slightly, the liquid that flows out the top of the pail should be 23%. Hope this helps.


----------



## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

Just a question as I will be fooling around with this sort of thing next season, would it help to have warm water to dilute the salt, would it dilute quicker, or would that just be a waste of money trying to heat the water? How about after it cools would the brine be to salty if that's at all possible?

Like I said I know little to nothing when it comes to this but I'm just wondering.


----------



## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

DeVries;1006597 said:


> Just a question as I will be fooling around with this sort of thing next season, would it help to have warm water to dilute the salt, would it dilute quicker, or would that just be a waste of money trying to heat the water? How about after it cools would the brine be to salty if that's at all possible?
> 
> Like I said I know little to nothing when it comes to this but I'm just wondering.


I'm not sure if it would dilute quicker.
Warmer water will dissolve more salt than cold water
I think you would have to keep it warm or you might have some "fall out"
I heat my brine before I make my rounds.


----------



## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm certain it would dissolve quicker, but it will cost you to do so and will kind of reduce your savings. You will also have to convert the measurement you take to account for the difference in temperature. Salimeters and hydrometers that I use are calibrated to be used at approx 60F. From what I remember from chemistry class, warm water will freeze quicker than room temp liquid will because it has more air space in the liquid? I have made salt brine twice a week all winter, solar salt dissolves the quickest followed by regular bulk salt. The ideal salimeter reading for salt brine is 23.3 %.


----------

