# salt vs. liquid



## csl

i would like some more EDUCATED input if i could. we have been using liquid deice for years now (mag. or sodium cl.) and this year a buddy of mine that has a much larger company than mine has converted all his trucks to rock salt rather than liquid. he says that they are saving tons of money on material and time. we pay roughly $.95 a gallon for liquid and $3.25 a bag for rock salt in 50 lb. bag or $80 a ton. i have done a lot of research on benefits and drawbacks, but they seem to be fairly bias, as most posts are by salesmen. does someone care to add to this as to the benefits and drawbacksd, thanks


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## cycles13

I cut my salt usage down 90% and mix my own liquid de-icer. I save on cost of salt by over 80%. The last year I used all salt, my salt cost was $23000.00. Last year my salt cost was less than $7000 including material for mixing my own de-icer.


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## csl

how were you making your own brine? formula? mixture? process? thanks


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## Kubota 8540

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=108235

2.3 pounds salt per gallon of water and stir well

Mix 90% salt brine and 10% calcium chloride together and spray until melted 

I use rock salt and liquids. Cut my salt usage by a minimum of 50%


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## Brian Young

We just got back into using liquid this season, we used it solely when rock salt prices sky rocketed a couple years ago. Now that rock salt prices came down it isn't that cost effective. The only reason we got back into liquids is we needed another salter and traded a large liquid system that we used in a dump truck. Now that we sold the dump, that system was too big to fit into a srw truck and trading for this system was much cheaper including liquid versus buying another V box. Plus IF rock prices jump again we have option's. Your liquid and rock salt are expensive! If rock salt reaches the 80-90 dollar mark, we'll be switching back total liquid. There's been only one time I didn't like liquid and that was during an ice event/freezing rain. Talk to kubota, he's got it down to a science for mixing it yourself.


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## Kubota 8540

Making your own Salt Brine:

Rock Salt @ $80/ton ? 1 ton of rock salt to treat avg of 3 acres? = 666 lbs/acre?

32% calcium chloride @ .75/gallon

Labor @ $48/hour ? ( I like to be paid well to turn valves and drive the skidsteer )

My Brine Maker Batch time =30 minutes for 850 gallon ( really it's less)

Brine application rate = 80-100 gallons per acre ( I'm usually in a hurry for it to melt)

850 gallons x 2.3 pounds per gallon = 1,955 pounds of rock salt ( close enough ) = $80
850 gallons x 10% cal chloride = 85 gallons x .75 = $64
Labor = 1/2 hour x $48 = $24
For the nit picky, water and gas =$ 12 

ADD $80+$64+$24+$12= to make 935 gallons of liquid brine = $ 180

application rate 80-100 gallons per acre? I'll use 90 gpa. 935 divided by 90 = 10.3 acres can be treated by that 1 ton of rock salt and 85 gallon of cal chloride mix. My cost per acre using rock salt = $26.50. Cost to treat 1 acre liquid = $17.50 ( approx)


When making your own equipment and making your own brine vs buying brine VERY different.

Any errors in my numbers? All are high estimates.


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## SnowMatt13

I agree with Kubota...and it is true for the fact of making your own brine versus buying it or buying production equipment.
I make my own brine and blend it 80/20 with GeoMelt55.
In pre-wetting applications I have reduced my salt by at least 40%.
I apply it at a minimum of 10 gallons per ton.


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## Brad3403

Kubota.....down to what temperature do you feel liquid works???


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## csl

thanks for all the help guys. to be more specific, a lot of companies around here are rock to spreading just rock salt on properties, no liquid. how many do this now? benefits / disadvantages? thanks


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## Kubota 8540

Brad3403;1343180 said:


> Kubota.....down to what temperature do you feel liquid works???


The very first time I sprayed liquids, I sprayed 32% Liquidow @ -7F / 21.6C air temp. I didn't realize or have a way to measure ground temperature. Sprayed it on top of 3/4 - 1" of snow and had a total melt in 45 minutes.

The following winter I sprayed a mix of 90/10 salt brine / liquidow, on an asphalt surface with a surface temperature of 7F - 10F and 3/4 -1" of snow, had a total melt in less than 20 minutes.

When temps get low I will either spray 32% Liquidow (+5F and below) or I have already sprayed my salt pile and spread rock salt.


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## Kubota 8540

My cost per acre using rock salt = $26.50

My cost to treat 1 acre liquid 90/10 mix = $17.50 ( approx)

My cost to treat 1 acre liquid 32% calcium chloride 60 gpa = $43.20

The most I can pay for a 80 gpa liquid would be $0.33 per gallon or 60 gpa liquid would be $0.44 per gallon or I might as well use Rock Salt?

That's why I make my own and why I use the mix I do.


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## Plow man Foster

I hope you are getting some good stuff at .95 cents a gallon.... Because i pay .34


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## Harold Finch

*Adding water to water with salt to melt ice?*



Kubota 8540;1343577 said:


> My cost per acre using rock salt = $26.50
> 
> My cost to treat 1 acre liquid 90/10 mix = $17.50 ( approx)
> 
> My cost to treat 1 acre liquid 32% calcium chloride 60 gpa = $43.20
> 
> The most I can pay for a 80 gpa liquid would be $0.33 per gallon or 60 gpa liquid would be $0.44 per gallon or I might as well use Rock Salt?
> 
> That's why I make my own and why I use the mix I do.


I do not use brines for de-icing, Only treated rock salt. I went through your math but something in the common sense area doesnt add up for me..

It takes x amount of salt to melt y amount of ice. You go through all of the trouble of making a brine, putting your salt into solution, and then spraying it as a de-icer.

When I de-ice it is because we have ice/snow on the pavement. Why add water to salt and then use the weaker solution to de-ice? Sure it acts faster but it also dies faster and wont melt as much ice as if you had just put down the granular in the first place.

Try treating your rock salt with an organic based performanced enhanced liquid? Even spraying your liquid cacl onto your rock salt and then spreading it granular seems less wastefull than making a brine and it will act as fast but also give you more residual and total melting capacity.

Why add water to a product that melts less ice and re-freezes with the more water you put into it?

There is plenty of frozen water on the ground when we are de-icing.. Truck de-icers around, not water. Just my thoughts, I could never understand why anyone would use brines pre or post storm. It may be cheap per gallon (and it should be as there is a very small amount of nacl/cacl in each gallon of water/solution) but overall, trucking, labor, equipment, return trips, slip and falls, etc you spend more.


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## Kubota 8540

Harold Finch;1346143 said:


> I do not use brines for de-icing, Only treated rock salt. I went through your math but something in the common sense area doesnt add up for me..
> 
> It takes x amount of salt to melt y amount of ice. You go through all of the trouble of making a brine, putting your salt into solution, and then spraying it as a de-icer.
> 
> When I de-ice it is because we have ice/snow on the pavement. Why add water to salt and then use the weaker solution to de-ice? Sure it acts faster but it also dies faster and wont melt as much ice as if you had just put down the granular in the first place.
> 
> Try treating your rock salt with an organic based performanced enhanced liquid? Even spraying your liquid cacl onto your rock salt and then spreading it granular seems less wastefull than making a brine and it will act as fast but also give you more residual and total melting capacity.
> 
> Why add water to a product that melts less ice and re-freezes with the more water you put into it?
> 
> There is plenty of frozen water on the ground when we are de-icing.. Truck de-icers around, not water. Just my thoughts, I could never understand why anyone would use brines pre or post storm. It may be cheap per gallon (and it should be as there is a very small amount of nacl/cacl in each gallon of water/solution) but overall, trucking, labor, equipment, return trips, slip and falls, etc you spend more.


It would appear as if you were a granular salt dealer or treated salt salesman? This would explain your negative post and attitudes toward liquids in general.

If your not using liquid deicing brine of some sort your probably over using the granular products. Some situations call for rock salt or enhanced rock salt and some do not. I happen to use liquids, rock salt, or enhanced rock salt depending on the snow event. If you have tried liquid brine and had a refreezing problem, it was either with the product you were using, improper application, or wrong tool for the situation. Depending on how much snow or compaction your trying to melt will determine the product you should select.

Pre-storm? To either buy some time or prevent a bonding of the snow to the pavement. Liquid does not get plowed off like rock salt does. Unless your getting paid by the ton.

Post storm, post plowing? Because there isn't enough snow left on the lot to get a good , fast brine going from a rock product. Also is far cheaper than rock salt or enhanced product.

Wasteful is having rock salt left on the pavement after everything has melted? With liquid this does not occur. Not everyone wants or needs a residual effect.

If you don't put down the right amount of rock salt can the surface re-freeze?

Liquids are simply another option to have available, the same as enhanced rock salt?

Having the right tool for the right job is practical and another way to maximize your profits.

Can you drive a nail with a sledge hammer? Yes but it's not always necessary. Why use rock salt if liquid brine will do the job?


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## Kubota 8540

csl;1343487 said:


> thanks for all the help guys. to be more specific, a lot of companies around here are rock to spreading just rock salt on properties, no liquid. how many do this now? benefits / disadvantages? thanks


If you are making your own liquids, then your are losing out on opportunities to maximize your profits. There are alot of things that go into the decisions to using liquid. .... moisture content of the snow, Fluffy or not? ..... temperature ....... your contract requirements ..... pre-treatment requirements for preventing the snow bonding with pavement? etc.

I have noticed alot of guys buying liquids and paying alot for them. For me it's about saving/making money and using the right tool for the job.


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## Plow man Foster

I agree with Jim (kubota)


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## fercho1

Kubota 8540;1346205 said:


> It would appear as if you were a granular salt dealer or treated salt salesman? This would explain your negative post and attitudes toward liquids in general.
> 
> If your not using liquid deicing brine of some sort your probably over using the granular products. Some situations call for rock salt or enhanced rock salt and some do not. I happen to use liquids, rock salt, or enhanced rock salt depending on the snow event. If you have tried liquid brine and had a refreezing problem, it was either with the product you were using, improper application, or wrong tool for the situation. Depending on how much snow or compaction your trying to melt will determine the product you should select.
> 
> Pre-storm? To either buy some time or prevent a bonding of the snow to the pavement. Liquid does not get plowed off like rock salt does. Unless your getting paid by the ton.
> 
> Post storm, post plowing? Because there isn't enough snow left on the lot to get a good , fast brine going from a rock product. Also is far cheaper than rock salt or enhanced product.
> 
> Wasteful is having rock salt left on the pavement after everything has melted? With liquid this does not occur. Not everyone wants or needs a residual effect.
> 
> If you don't put down the right amount of rock salt can the surface re-freeze?
> 
> Liquids are simply another option to have available, the same as enhanced rock salt?
> 
> Having the right tool for the right job is practical and another way to maximize your profits.
> 
> Can you drive a nail with a sledge hammer? Yes but it's not always necessary. Why use rock salt if liquid brine will do the job?


I think you called it right. He sounds like another salesman who is pushing his "own" product!wesport


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## firelwn82

Thanks for the info Kubota. I dont do a ton of salting but I do do enough to where I want to get away from the salt companies stealing from my pocket. I have always bought bagged product. This year I want to go 70-80% liquid and 20-30% rock. I'm also going to try buying by the ton and running it through my tailgate spreader. I added a vibrator to it last year and never once had a problem with it jamming up on me. I should have done that 4 years ago.... Spent alot of time banging on the dang thing and lost alot of moo la doing it.. Time is money folks.


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## firelwn82

O and also. MAking brine is not that difficult. Plus it's not like your working every single day in the winter. If you can make enough brine for two events before hand your golden. Like mentioned before its going to take and hour tops to make the brine solution. And if its super cold out just add some flake Peldow or such to your tank and bam you have "HOT" brine.


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## Kubota 8540

fercho1;1347029 said:


> I think you called it right. He sounds like another salesman who is pushing his "own" product!wesport


Liquid salt brine POing salt company salesman for years.........PRICELESS ! :laughing: But attacking common sense? Iowa DOT started the ball rolling if I'm not mistaking, Illinois DOT worked and developed and tested what was called the super mix. Many other state DOT's followed, not to mention counties, boroughs, cities and private contractors. They must all be morons? I think not. 

Also figured out not to post near him, it's like a big bad vacuum and your post get deleted. :salute:


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## DKG

Can you just add cacl flake to salt brine? I wondered if there would be falling out? I allways thought you had to mix 2 liquids together.


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## Kubota 8540

DKG;1347084 said:


> Can you just add cacl flake to salt brine? I wondered if there would be falling out? I allways thought you had to mix 2 liquids together.


I have played with it numerous different ways, but have always mixed liquid to liquid. I found if you make a mix of 70/30 salt brine to calcium chloride you get a lot of fall out. However I have never just added a bag of flake to my brine. I would guess as long as you didn't reach the max saturation point you should be fine.


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## DKG

Thanks Kubota, I have a customer that has requested less salt residue, meaning more liquids. Do you have experience making cacl brine?


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## Kubota 8540

DKG;1347101 said:


> Thanks Kubota, I have a customer that has requested less salt residue, meaning more liquids. Do you have experience making cacl brine?


None, I have always bought from one of PlowSites sponsors, Kevhead20. Sicalco Ltd. Liquidow

One of the members form Minnesota makes all of his, from anhydrous calcium chloride or something to that effect. But you should be able to make it from any bag product. Even though some is like only 80-90 percent? I have heard flake was the quickest to dissolve. I had a guy here today wanting to make small quantities as needed, but wasn't much help to him either.


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## Kubota 8540

DKG;1347101 said:


> Thanks Kubota, I have a customer that has requested less salt residue, meaning more liquids. Do you have experience making cacl brine?


Looked back and found it......Deicepro.....here......http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=76877&highlight=making+liquid+calcium+chloride

# 14

"Actually it takes 850# of pellets added to 220 gallons of h20 to make about 270 gallons of 29%+ of solution, WHICH is a waste of time if you are buying dow for less than $.50 gallon"


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## DKG

Thanks, I guess I'll try the trial and error method. It's usually the best way to learn. I'll post the method that I find works best for me. Good night guys.


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## firelwn82

I have a question for you Kubota. I want to try and stay away from a gas powered setup and go all electric. Wht would your recomendations be for a setup like this. I have a condo complex and there super :realmad: about noise from 11pm-7am.... Makes it rough by I charge accordingly... :salute:


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## Kubota 8540

firelwn82;1347145 said:


> I have a question for you Kubota. I want to try and stay away from a gas powered setup and go all electric. Wht would your recomendations be for a setup like this. I have a condo complex and there super :realmad: about noise from 11pm-7am.... Makes it rough by I charge accordingly... :salute:


I just built a 3 pump ( electric) 3 zone sprayer that went out of here a couple weeks ago. But I didn't even get to spray with it, so I really don't know how it sprayed. Anyway I used (3) Delavan 7 gpm Fat Boy pumps. They are a little pricey for there size and comparison to a gas powered. Each pump cost $275. Hooked each up to a solenoid and individual switches back to the cab. 1 Main positive and ground cable from the main battery back to a terminal box by the pumps. Used the big +/- cable that is used for hooking up a v box. Each pump could run (2) black SJ3's and (2) gray SJ3's. I think they are the same size pumps used on the new snowex liquid sprayer system.

No boom valve needed, I set up (3) siphon tubes into the top of the 450 gallon tank.

Was so busy forgot to take some pics to post, must be slipping.


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## firelwn82

Do you think tat is slight over kill? I was thinking 2 60psi 3.8 gpm pumps in-line pumping into a 3/4 or 1" pipe with 3 or maybe 4 at the most fan tips. I really want to stay away from a gas pump but I suppose you could always suppress the muffler some how...


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## Kubota 8540

firelwn82;1347159 said:


> Do you think tat is slight over kill? I was thinking 2 60psi 3.8 gpm pumps in-line pumping into a 3/4 or 1" pipe with 3 or maybe 4 at the most fan tips. I really want to stay away from a gas pump but I suppose you could always suppress the muffler some how...


Overkill? at 21 gpm with a 80% efficiency rate is only 16-17 gpm. To spray I would like 6-10 mph, not 3-4 mph, already tried that, and 60-100 gallons per acre once over. IMO a sprayer should be capable of 40 gpm, some to the boom and some back to the tank. Keeps everything nice and stirred. Then I can spray at whatever speed I need to. Sprayers can be setup just about anyway you want to. The first sprayer I built used a 5 gpm pump and (4) .75 gpm fan tips and had to spray at 2-3 mph. Ok for small drives but not for 1+ acre lots. But when I hit the pump switch or boom switch it's time to also give it some gas and go spraying, not ride the brake and take all night.

BIG muffler I think would be less expensive.


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## Kubota 8540

OOOPS ! Hi jacked CSL's thread. Salt vs Liquid ? Both, depends on the situation. As long as threads are free I guess I'll start one sprayer related.


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## firelwn82

Kubota 8540;1347178 said:


> OOOPS ! Hi jacked CSL's thread. Salt vs Liquid ? Both, depends on the situation. As long as threads are free I guess I'll start one sprayer related.


O crap... I thought we were on your thread as well.... Yeah your right. I didnt even think about power loss or the agitation idea..... Damn.... I was also trying to get by without having to buy a $400 check valve so its not dumping while I start the motor and run back to the truck... It's my first setup so dont want to make it all out...


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## Kubota 8540

firelwn82;1347196 said:


> O crap... I thought we were on your thread as well.... Yeah your right. I didnt even think about power loss or the agitation idea..... Damn.... I was also trying to get by without having to buy a $400 check valve so its not dumping while I start the motor and run back to the truck... It's my first setup so dont want to make it all out...


Go over to the sprayer related thread and I'll tell you about the valve.


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## Harold Finch

*I agree*

Kubota,

I agree with your "right tool for the job" comment. There should be more than one anti and de-icing material used in an effecient operation, three at least. If I was trying to sell you salt wouldnt I have done that? I was simply getting everyone to think.. I like some of the responses. I am in the winter maintenance business myself.

However.. Altough I do agree there are times when a weak salt brine can do the trick.. (That is not often in the tri state area climate I am in). If the conditions of a light powery snow or nice clean lot after an arctic sectional cleared it presented with temps between 25-32 then I agree a sodium chloride brine can do the trick quickly and cost effectively.

That does not happen much for me.. Usually I have high water content snow(wet/heavy snow), cold temps(under 25), windy conditions, constant snow showers, etc. Salt brines wind up being a waste in those conditions. So back to my question.. why add water to dilute your nacl and make it weaker and refreeze faster at a higher temp? Liquid mgcl or cacl almost always comes in a 29-31% solution of water. Its best melting dilution is 26% I believe, so adding water to liquid salts is a waste also. Just put down less if you want to reduce residue, but can you still complete the job? Seems like a waste to add water to nacl and make a brine unless you are after that 1/8 inch powdery snow in 27f temps. Trucks have to carry the water weight, application takes longer, labor/equipment to make the brine etc.

Would anyone anti-ice or "pre-treat" with a salt brine?

FYI- It is not correct, those of you doing this, to call a liquid a liquid a liquid. There are many liquid products that do different things. For example a salt brine is a better de-icer than an anti icer. A OBPE(organic based performance enhancer) liquid high in the organic concentration would be a better liquid to treat rock salt. A OBPE liquid a bit higher in organics than a liquid de-icer of the same material and less in liquid salt would be a better anti-icer. I would not refer to everything as a "liquid" or you will be mislead by others.


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## Harold Finch

DKG;1347101 said:


> Thanks Kubota, I have a customer that has requested less salt residue, meaning more liquids. Do you have experience making cacl brine?


..Less salt residue meaning more "liquids"... Doesnt make sense. Most "liquids" have na/mg/cacl in them, wether its a brine/OBPE/DCS/BCS/etc.. Your salt residue will show its face. Some less than others. Try using an OBPE treated salt(reduce bounce and scatter, reduce harmfull effects to concrete/steel, increase residuel(material stays on pavement) if you must stay with a cost effective method). AND apply what you need given the conditions, dont over apply and you wont get as much of that white coating left over that everyone gets tired of seeing come February. Other expensive options do exist depending on where youre located. You could always do a rain dance a few days after the snow storm.


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## DKG

Less salt RESIDUE meaning do what you can to avoid salt crunching underfoot. Salt will still be used, but various application methods, ie. liquid anti-icing, pre-wet granular, as well as liquid de-icing will be involved.. As much as I have questioned in the past, the customer is always right.


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## Kubota 8540

DKG;1349250 said:


> Less salt RESIDUE meaning do what you can to avoid salt crunching underfoot. Salt will still be used, but various application methods, ie. liquid anti-icing, pre-wet granular, as well as liquid de-icing will be involved.. As much as I have questioned in the past, the customer is always right.


Your spot on. All these state DOT's are not doing brine if it is foolishness. From Kansas to Vermont are using salt brine. Yes it contains less salt content. What Harold is advocating is to use 1/2 as much salt and wait twice as long. Will it work? Yes, but twice as long of time.

So.....use 1/2 as much salt, mix with water to make brine, apply and start getting instant results. Salt salesman don't like it though. Anti-freeze is a great product but it works best when mixed with water. 

Had a goofy thought for a patent.... SnowVac.... sucks up the snow, mixes with the salt in the back of the truck and re-applies as brine?


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## Harold Finch

Who said use half as much salt? That is what you are doing by adding water to nacl, actually less than that and you risk refreeze in a heartbeat. A quality OBPE treated rock salt will melt faster and have longer residual than your nacl brine solution and in long term will cost less. It also wont run away with the water as fast as a brine will. The DOTs you refer to do not use straight nacl and water. Most use an OBPE liquid or different blends depending on the given temperatures.. Very few use a straight "salt brine". Once again know the difference between what everyone refers to as "liquids". Anti icers and de-icers are, should be, two different liquid products. A product used to treat rck salt is a third different liquid. Many tools in the tool box.. 

DKG, wether you use a solid or liquid salt you cant escape the residue once things dry out. When temps get cold and snow is harsh you can beat the perfromance and cost of a treated rock salt de-icer with any liquid de-icer.


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## White Gardens

Harold Finch;1349515 said:


> Who said use half as much salt? That is what you are doing by adding water to nacl, actually less than that and you risk refreeze in a heartbeat. A quality OBPE treated rock salt will melt faster and have longer residual than your nacl brine solution and in long term will cost less. It also wont run away with the water as fast as a brine will. The DOTs you refer to do not use straight nacl and water. Most use an OBPE liquid or different blends depending on the given temperatures.. Very few use a straight "salt brine". Once again know the difference between what everyone refers to as "liquids". Anti icers and de-icers are, should be, two different liquid products. A product used to treat rck salt is a third different liquid. Many tools in the tool box..
> 
> DKG, wether you use a solid or liquid salt you cant escape the residue once things dry out. When temps get cold and snow is harsh you can beat the perfromance and cost of a treated rock salt de-icer with any liquid de-icer.


Here's where I slightly beg to differ to this and an earlier post.

The main reason for DOT's using DGDS (Grain By-Products) especially in their pre-treatment systems is for the shear stick factor to keep the liquid Cal/Mag on the pavement, and corrosion neutralization. From my reading, it has nothing to do with the actual melting of ice/snow.

I also feel that a liquid solution is much faster ice melter as it creates the brine that you are looking for to melt the snow. In some situations with just rock salt alone, you might not get the brine to start or activate effectively and what happens is that you tend to throw more rock salt at the situation to get good results, thus leaving pockets of residue and bigger particles of salt left on the pavement.

These particles are then crushed by vehicles and foot traffic, thus tracking in the salt residue into residences and places of business and that is where the biggest complaint come from. If you could use liquid that won't leave these particles behind then you are the hero to these people.

Those particles are also salt loss. Though a residue is left on the pavement and can act as a "pre-treatment", but you still loose salt to traffic. And as soon as it rains, it can be washed away.

I'm excited to work with a spray system this year and I can see a lot of advantages that will make a win-win situation for both my customers and myself.

TURN54 on here is from the Peoria area, and just from my few interactions with him is really showing me not only the cost savings but the more effective a wetting system is.

....


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## Kubota 8540

White Gardens;1349903 said:


> Here's where I slightly beg to differ to this and an earlier post.
> 
> The main reason for DOT's using DGDS (Grain By-Products) especially in their pre-treatment systems is for the shear stick factor to keep the liquid Cal/Mag on the pavement, and corrosion neutralization. From my reading, it has nothing to do with the actual melting of ice/snow.
> 
> I also feel that a liquid solution is much faster ice melter as it creates the brine that you are looking for to melt the snow. In some situations with just rock salt alone, you might not get the brine to start or activate effectively and what happens is that you tend to throw more rock salt at the situation to get good results, thus leaving pockets of residue and bigger particles of salt left on the pavement.
> 
> These particles are then crushed by vehicles and foot traffic, thus tracking in the salt residue into residences and places of business and that is where the biggest complaint come from. If you could use liquid that won't leave these particles behind then you are the hero to these people.
> 
> Those particles are also salt loss. Though a residue is left on the pavement and can act as a "pre-treatment", but you still loose salt to traffic. And as soon as it rains, it can be washed away.
> 
> I'm excited to work with a spray system this year and I can see a lot of advantages that will make a win-win situation for both my customers and myself.
> 
> TURN54 on here is from the Peoria area, and just from my few interactions with him is really showing me not only the cost savings but the more effective a wetting system is.
> 
> ....


Yes, I had the chance to meet Turn54 a winter or so ago. He is running an early version sprayer I built. Said he loved it and it was working out real well for him. I think he was making salt brine?


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## Harold Finch

Yes, fibrous material is needed to adhere/stick material to the pavement or rock salt. Some organics are better than others. A good organic also chemically changes the the final product, a synergy.. Ca/mg cl are corrosive stand alone. OBPE or bcs/dcs also reduce the corrosiveness of liquid/granular salts, lower eutectic temps, increase residual(by keeping the final product where it belongs), and can reduce the amount of salt needed to melt a given amount of snow/ice. 

SO, why use salt brines(regular nacl and water)? Use an anti and de icer that contain an organic which brings all the good qualities to the table.. 

From earlier.. Anti freeze works, you tend to mix 50/50.. Last time i checked there isnt existing snow/ice/water in an engine unless you add it. Typically in my area when we de-ice it is because there is snow or ice on the pavement.. WATER A liquid anti icer, one with an obpe that is non corrosive, has lower eutectic temps, sticks to pavement etc will work much better for you and your clients property than salt and water. And faster than brine.. 

I noticed the few guys in this debate with me are from midwest, and further.. Do you guys have organic based perfromance enhancers in your market? If you have never used one I can understand why you think brine is the only "liquid"


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## White Gardens

Harold Finch;1350453 said:


> I noticed the few guys in this debate with me are from midwest, and further.. Do you guys have organic based perfromance enhancers in your market? If you have never used one I can understand why you think brine is the only "liquid"


We do in this market and I can also go buy the organic additives strait from a few plants around here, thus cutting out the middleman, or cutting out suppliers for pre-made agents.

Brine isn't necessarily the only liquid out there, though it's basically the base for most, if not all liquid applications. Even through my research and mixes that include organics, NaCl is part of the equation along with calcium/magnesium chlorides.The key is with adding organics is finding the right balance or ratios to be completely effective.

But, I will say, if you are starting a liquid system, I would start with a strait brine solution first until you work out all the kinks in your system.

...


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## Lynden-Jeff

Very Informative thread. Thought I would bump with a question for Kubota. What are your experiences with spray CaCl directly. We are intending to spray 30% CaCl direct both on the ground and salting (which I believe is a little more potent then 32%) which we get for around $0.64 per liter. We have debated make our own brine and then blend but are not sure. Experiences/info appreciated.


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## Kubota 8540

Lynden-Jeff;1358251 said:


> Very Informative thread. Thought I would bump with a question for Kubota. What are your experiences with spray CaCl directly. We are intending to spray 30% CaCl direct both on the ground and salting (which I believe is a little more potent then 32%) which we get for around $0.64 per liter. We have debated make our own brine and then blend but are not sure. Experiences/info appreciated.


I have sprayed straight CaCl at -7F on top of 3/4-1" of snow and had a total melt off with no wheel traffic in 45 minutes. Also have sprayed my rock salt when temps got really cold and had no lumps, clumps or chunks what so ever. Mixed with my salt brine at temps from 5F-28F with great results. Mainly I use Liquidow, but have used well brine also.


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## Dumpster Guy

I have recently purchased a brine-maker and a snow-ex vss-3000 liquid sprayer thanks to the informative posts and the learning done on this site. So far we love it. but I have had a complaint from a customer that there is no visible sign that we have serviced the property. 
Easily handled with the no visable tracking of rock salt into there business entrances and all other benefits but why is there no residue or spray lines? Often when the city does it there are visible lines. 

I am using straight salt brine with 24% salidity.

Thanks in advance for your input and thanks again for all you guys who contribute. I have to learn somewhere as we don't get many events in Vancouver British Columbia more rain then anything.


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## DKG

I've been making salt brine the last couple days, today I did my first batch of calcium chloride brine, 10 bags of DOW FLAKE EXTRA into 82 gallons of water. Dissolved really quick, less than 10 minutes. Going to pick up a skid or 2 soon to fill up my tanks.


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## Kubota 8540

Dumpster Guy;1360575 said:


> I have recently purchased a brine-maker and a snow-ex vss-3000 liquid sprayer thanks to the informative posts and the learning done on this site. So far we love it. but I have had a complaint from a customer that there is no visible sign that we have serviced the property.
> Easily handled with the no visable tracking of rock salt into there business entrances and all other benefits but why is there no residue or spray lines? Often when the city does it there are visible lines.
> 
> I am using straight salt brine with 24% salidity.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your input and thanks again for all you guys who contribute. I have to learn somewhere as we don't get many events in Vancouver British Columbia more rain then anything.


What brine maker did you purchase?

No visible residue because you are using far less salt to do the same job. I have informed my customers that the liquid may make it appear I wasn't there, and explained it to them . They love the liquid salt brine mix.

Not sure why no lines unless it didn't have time to dry before it was used up by a snow?


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## Kubota 8540

DKG;1360755 said:


> I've been making salt brine the last couple days, today I did my first batch of calcium chloride brine, 10 bags of DOW FLAKE EXTRA into 82 gallons of water. Dissolved really quick, less than 10 minutes. Going to pick up a skid or 2 soon to fill up my tanks.


What's your recipe? What % are you making?


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## DKG

I used tha recipe in the link you referred me to. The specific gravity of the end product was 1.30. do you think I missed something?


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## Kubota 8540

DKG;1360826 said:


> I used tha recipe in the link you referred me to. The specific gravity of the end product was 1.30. do you think I missed something?


I don't know right off. Deicepro used peladow pellets and you used flake. Just trying to remember the % purity of both.

But as well as I remember the SG of 1.30 sounds about right.

http://www.glchloride.com/brochure/Brochure - Liquidow Product Information Sheet.pdf page 2 chart


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## DKG

Just went to check the empty bag, garbage already gone. I believe it was 82-84% purity.


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## Kubota 8540

DKG;1360868 said:


> Just went to check the empty bag, garbage already gone. I believe it was 82-84% purity.


I think you are right on target at about 1.3 according to the chart I posted the link to.


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## DKG

Thanks Kubota, I appreciate your help. good night folks.


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## Lynden-Jeff

DKG;1360826 said:


> I used tha recipe in the link you referred me to. The specific gravity of the end product was 1.30. do you think I missed something?


What type of cost per liter do you get?


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## DKG

I can't remember how much I paid for the calcium, 10 bags made 100us gallons, therefor the cost of 10 bags divided by 380 would give you the calcium cost per litre. I am going to liquify a skid of calcium soon, then I'll work out the cost of a larger run with calcium, water, labour etc factored in. I'll keep you posted.


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## Broncslefty7

Kubota you said Fluffy or not? what does that have to do with the decision to use liquids? we get a healthy mix of fluffy and heavy snow.


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## Broncslefty7

rite now i am paying 8 cents per lb of calcium flake, if my thoughts are correct, 150lbs. of flake should be sufficient for a 600 gallon mix. correct me if i am wrong. if i am correct that would put my cost per gallon to make brine rite around 9-11 cents per gallon without the gas or water.


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## terrapro

Broncslefty7;2118254 said:


> rite now i am paying 8 cents per lb of calcium flake, if my thoughts are correct, 150lbs. of flake should be sufficient for a 600 gallon mix. correct me if i am wrong. if i am correct that would put my cost per gallon to make brine rite around 9-11 cents per gallon without the gas or water.


No you want your LCC at about 30-32%. So I believe you would need 3-3.2lbs per gal or 1900-1920lbs for 600gal...I could be wrong though lol


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## Kubota 8540

Broncslefty7;2118246 said:


> Kubota you said Fluffy or not? what does that have to do with the decision to use liquids? we get a healthy mix of fluffy and heavy snow.


Brine or mixture there of will melt more drier moisture content snow than it will a snow with a higher moisture content. But the brine will still help in keeping the higher moisture content snow from bonding to the pavement/surface.

When I have a higher moisture content snow I choose rock salt.


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## Broncslefty7

so for a "hot brine" you want 24% salinity and 30% calcium? that seems like over kill on the calcium side. that actually seems way more expensive to mix both in, that it would be to just run bulk rock salt


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## snowish10

Kubota 8540;1358290 said:


> I have sprayed straight CaCl at -7F on top of 3/4-1" of snow and had a total melt off with no wheel traffic in 45 minutes. Also have sprayed my rock salt when temps got really cold and had no lumps, clumps or chunks what so ever. Mixed with my salt brine at temps from 5F-28F with great results. Mainly I use Liquidow, but have used well brine also.


Do you know of a good place in illinois to buy a small order of liquidow- 15 gallons. Only use it for my driveway and my neighbors house. And does using liquidow hurt concrete or kill grass in anyway???

Or if you have other suggestions of different types of liquid to use.


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## Kubota 8540

snowish10;2118707 said:


> Do you know of a good place in illinois to buy a small order of liquidow- 15 gallons. Only use it for my driveway and my neighbors house. And does using liquidow hurt concrete or kill grass in anyway???
> 
> Or if you have other suggestions of different types of liquid to use.


None that I know of. I have heard of places you could buy small quantities of mineral well brine. I personally didnt care for it, but it might have been the batch I bought? I never had any issues of any kind with the liquidow. I would sell off small quantities, IF I had any and IF I were not so far in the burbs.

Mixed all mine into 90/10.


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## Mark Oomkes

Kubota 8540;2118821 said:


> None that I know of. I have heard of places you could buy small quantities of mineral well brine. I personally didnt care for it, but it might have been the batch I bought? I never had any issues of any kind with the liquidow. I would sell off small quantities, IF I had any and IF I were not so far in the burbs.
> 
> Mixed all mine into 90/10.


It's not you or the batch, it's the inconsistency of the batches that are delivered. I tried it for a year or maybe 2 from 2 different sources and was thoroughly unimpressed with both.


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## Mark Oomkes

Kubota 8540;2118454 said:


> Brine or mixture there of will melt more drier moisture content snow than it will a snow with a higher moisture content. But the brine will still help in keeping the higher moisture content snow from bonding to the pavement/surface.
> 
> When I have a higher moisture content snow I choose rock salt.


Thumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs Up



Broncslefty7;2118685 said:


> so for a "hot brine" you want 24% salinity and 30% calcium? that seems like over kill on the calcium side. that actually seems way more expensive to mix both in, that it would be to just run bulk rock salt


No to the 24%, you're going to create problems. No higher than 23%.


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## Broncslefty7

24% typo, sorry. still though, why wouldnt you just mix in the calcium and leave out the salt for a hot brine? i have seen calcium mixed in 5 gallon buckets on pool decks and next thing you know the bucket is liquid plastic lol.


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## Broncslefty7

*Brine Vs. Treated Salt*

ran a test last night with 15 gal of 23% salt brine with about 1/2 quart of liquid calcium, Versus treated salt. it was about 20 degrees out and the snow was light and frilly. it was about 2 inches of snow over 4 hours. starting at the building and going 20 feet out across the width of the building is the brine area, the rest of the lot is the treated salt. the treated salt definitely seems to stick around longer, and i couldn't really tell the difference when scraping. the brine is a quarter of the cost of the treated salt around here though. there has got to be at least 50-60 snow companies in this area say a 15 mile radius, and the only people using brine is the state DOT. i dont know if people dont like the brine around here or if it just hasnt caught on yet. i guess we will see. sorry the dates and times are off on the cameras but they are in chronological order. say from 7pm to 10:30 pm.


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## VS Innovation

csl;1341377 said:


> i would like some more EDUCATED input if i could. we have been using liquid deice for years now (mag. or sodium cl.) and this year a buddy of mine that has a much larger company than mine has converted all his trucks to rock salt rather than liquid. he says that they are saving tons of money on material and time. we pay roughly $.95 a gallon for liquid and $3.25 a bag for rock salt in 50 lb. bag or $80 a ton. i have done a lot of research on benefits and drawbacks, but they seem to be fairly bias, as most posts are by salesmen. does someone care to add to this as to the benefits and drawbacksd, thanks


As many posts on this thread have stated, making brine yourself is the most cost effective method. Our company has built every setup we have used the last four years. We now have a 2200 gallon brine maker. We use reject salt from the salt block manufacturing process, and pay 17 dollars a ton. We are able to make our brine for 4 cents a gallon (including overhead and labor). I understand that this is a much lower cost than buying bulk salt. Even at 75 dollars a ton, our cost would be only 12 cents per gallon.

The cost savings is not how much you pay for salt (since most contractors pay the same in a given area) but the savings in salt applied. When you spray brine at 80-100 gallons per acre, you are applying around 184-230 lbs of salt per acre vs rock salt with a spreader at 600-1000 lbs per acre. This means you cut your salt cost by a third or more. Again, you will save the most mixing your brine yourself. To pay 95 cents per gallon is very high. We sell to our local contractors at a price of 25 cents per gallon.

We also will add liquid calcium chloride to our brine when temperatures are below 20 degrees. Usually we spray a 90/10 mix. Our delivered cost of our calcium chloride (with beet juice additives and corrosion inhibitors) is 79 cents per gallon.

You can see why we use liquid as our only means of de-icing. Cost is not the only reason tho. We have had great success using liquid and have added many large accounts due to the cleanliness of our properties. Just as a reference we service 18-20 acres per storm.

We have a very large knowledge base on the entire liquid process. Let me know if you have any questions, I'd be glad to help clear things up!


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## JD Dave

Broncslefty7;2119049 said:


> ran a test last night with 15 gal of 23% salt brine with about 1/2 quart of liquid calcium, Versus treated salt. it was about 20 degrees out and the snow was light and frilly. it was about 2 inches of snow over 4 hours. starting at the building and going 20 feet out across the width of the building is the brine area, the rest of the lot is the treated salt. the treated salt definitely seems to stick around longer, and i couldn't really tell the difference when scraping. the brine is a quarter of the cost of the treated salt around here though. there has got to be at least 50-60 snow companies in this area say a 15 mile radius, and the only people using brine is the state DOT. i dont know if people dont like the brine around here or if it just hasnt caught on yet. i guess we will see. sorry the dates and times are off on the cameras but they are in chronological order. say from 7pm to 10:30 pm.


How much salt did you put down, or did you have an accurate way of measuring salt?


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## leigh

One thing I could never figure out,if you apply salt brine at 80-100gals per acre and that brine contains only 180 - 230 lbs of salt,why not just put down the same amount of dry salt at those rates? Soon as it comes into contact with snow it becomes a brine ? Why does premixing it make it into a super efficient product? I can understand pre treating to help with snow bonding to the pavement.If you look at the scientific tables for the amount of salt needed to melt ice at various temps it rises dramatically as temps decrease.If you use straight brine you would have to flood the lots to get the amount of salt needed. I understand adding cal to brine to help at lower temps,same as adding extras to bulk salt.The state dot here(ct) only use brine as a prestorm application that they can do ahead of the storm to help with the bonding issue,once the storm comes it's all salt with a little liquid(6-8 gals per ton) at spinner to lower the working temps. Our snow here is usually wet and heavy,wish liquids would work here.And I've followed every thread on this subject!


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## Broncslefty7

leigh, i did some demo work with liquids this year in newington connecticut, even though we had a very light winter i am going to start incorperating liquids into the mix. i tested on several different occasions. with light fluffier snow it works great, with the wet heavy snow it still works, not as good as with the dryer snow but it still work pretty good, and is a bit more cost effective than salt. the only time i had an issue was with that last ice storm we had, and instead of using the liquids i just went and bought 2 yards of salt and it worked fine.


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## Broncslefty7

*yes i used bags*



JD Dave;2122216 said:


> How much salt did you put down, or did you have an accurate way of measuring salt?


yes, the area in the cameras is the area in front of my shop, i put 150lbs of treated rock salt into my spreader via a scale in our shop. from the end of the liquid area to the curb on the opposite side of the parking lot is 105' so 105x45 so that is about .03 lbs. per sqare foot. which would come out to about 1290 lb per acre, i know i went a little heavy on the salt lol.


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## JD Dave

Broncslefty7;2122441 said:


> yes, the area in the cameras is the area in front of my shop, i put 150lbs of treated rock salt into my spreader via a scale in our shop. from the end of the liquid area to the curb on the opposite side of the parking lot is 105' so 105x45 so that is about .03 lbs. per sqare foot. which would come out to about 1290 lb per acre, i know i went a little heavy on the salt lol.


So your saying 15 gallons of brine per acre with a quart of calcium in it worked better then salt ar 1290 lbs per acre.


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## Broncslefty7

no.... 15 gallons covering 1700 sq ft. and in my post i said i think the treated salt worked better. it 100% did work better, but brine is a hell of a lot cheaper than treated salt.

$6.00 in salt
$1.80 in brine...

and the salt kept black top about 30 mins longer than the brine. is it worth the extra 4 dollars when magnified to 25 acres that we take care of for 30 mins more of black top. probly not.


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## JD Dave

Broncslefty7;2122567 said:


> no.... 15 gallons covering 1700 sq ft. and in my post i said i think the treated salt worked better. it 100% did work better, but brine is a hell of a lot cheaper than treated salt.
> 
> $6.00 in salt
> $1.80 in brine...
> 
> and the salt kept black top about 30 mins longer than the brine. is it worth the extra 4 dollars when magnified to 25 acres that we take care of for 30 mins more of black top. probly not.


I think a better comparison would be to use the same amount of salt evenly spread to take the guessing out of it.


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## Broncslefty7

good point. i may have to wait until next year to try that, its going to be 60 out the rest of the week. :/


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## VS Innovation

leigh;2122356 said:


> One thing I could never figure out,if you apply salt brine at 80-100gals per acre and that brine contains only 180 - 230 lbs of salt,why not just put down the same amount of dry salt at those rates? Soon as it comes into contact with snow it becomes a brine ? Why does premixing it make it into a super efficient product? I can understand pre treating to help with snow bonding to the pavement.If you look at the scientific tables for the amount of salt needed to melt ice at various temps it rises dramatically as temps decrease.If you use straight brine you would have to flood the lots to get the amount of salt needed. I understand adding cal to brine to help at lower temps,same as adding extras to bulk salt.The state dot here(ct) only use brine as a prestorm application that they can do ahead of the storm to help with the bonding issue,once the storm comes it's all salt with a little liquid(6-8 gals per ton) at spinner to lower the working temps. Our snow here is usually wet and heavy,wish liquids would work here.And I've followed every thread on this subject!


The reason that brine works is because the salt is carried in solution with the water. The water is used to evenly spread the salt and also to direct the salt in a specific direction (using a boom). Brine is obviously salt dissolved in water, this skips the step of waiting for the granules to dissolve in the snow. In return, you jump start the melting process. Most times granular salt is over applied but necessary to make sure the salt is close enough together to evenly melt the snow. With brine, the product is applied evenly, and forced through the snow pack using the pressure from the pump vs melting from the top down.

Obviously granular salt does work. It has been used for years. The biggest difference, other than cost savings and efficiency, we have noticed is the fact that our lots will completely melt off in under an hour with no piles of salt left behind.


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## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7;2122567 said:


> no.... 15 gallons covering 1700 sq ft. and in my post i said i think the treated salt worked better. it 100% did work better, but brine is a hell of a lot cheaper than treated salt.
> 
> $6.00 in salt
> $1.80 in brine...
> 
> and the salt kept black top about 30 mins longer than the brine. is it worth the extra 4 dollars when magnified to 25 acres that we take care of for 30 mins more of black top. probly not.


When running these tests on the small scale, we need to make sure our numbers will correlate directly with a large scale application. If you used 15 gallons to cover 1,700 sq ft that equates to 384 gallons per acre. When post treating your goal would be 80-100 gallons per acre.

Also we need to make sure that the product we are applying is the same ratio as the large scale. 15 gallons of brine mixed with 1/2 a quart of calcium chloride is a 99 percent brine 1 percent calcium chloride mix. So this brine was almost not treated at all (straight salt). Then you compared it to spreading treated salt. It is understandable why the treated salt would work better, especially in the warmer temperatures.

There are a lot of factors to consider when running these test. Care must be taken to make sure everything will correlate to the real world expectation of a product. Without this correlation a test will only yield flawed conclusions.


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## fireside

I have been looking into liquids for the past couple of years. What I have learned in my area is the logistics by far out way any limited cost savings. At a rate of 80 gallons per acre on a pickup that can carry 200 gallons my service area is limited. I can't have storage tanks on site how do I refill. Using salt hopper empty go back to the pile and reload. No fancy storage system need just a pile on the ground. I would like to know how you handle the logistics or distance from refill locations

In my area we have a very large landscaping company try a liquid program after the first season they sold half the equipment and the second season it was all gone! They didn't see the saving or benifits of the products. They found quite the opposite results. The logistic just killed it. I was able to look at the hard numbers they don't lie.


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## VS Innovation

fireside;2123336 said:


> I have been looking into liquids for the past couple of years. What I have learned in my area is the logistics by far out way any limited cost savings. At a rate of 80 gallons per acre on a pickup that can carry 200 gallons my service area is limited. I can't have storage tanks on site how do I refill. Using salt hopper empty go back to the pile and reload. No fancy storage system need just a pile on the ground. I would like to know how you handle the logistics or distance from refill locations
> 
> In my area we have a very large landscaping company try a liquid program after the first season they sold half the equipment and the second season it was all gone! They didn't see the saving or benifits of the products. They found quite the opposite results. The logistic just killed it. I was able to look at the hard numbers they don't lie.


We have experienced the exact opposite of what you found. Our trucks can service more with a 300 gallon tank than they can with a v box. These trucks are f-250 shortbeds. With 300 gallons of brine, one 3/4 ton truck can treat over three acres. This far out performs a v box. The truck is not over its gvwr, and the visibility is still there due to the low profile tanks. We now have the ability to send a 3/4 ton truck 15 miles away, plow a two acre account, de-ice, and return without any outside help.

Put it on the large scale. Our 2700 gallon sprayer is capable of handling over 30 acres in one tankful. We also use this truck to fill our other trucks in town. There is no need to drive to a salt pile, pull off a tarp, and start another piece of equipment. We just hook up a hose and fill with the pump. Our trucks never need to run back to the shop because our hook truck is our storage in town.

The only part about brine that can be less efficient is the process of making it. However, we can make 2200 gallons in less than an hour. We got by for 2 years without storage. We just used our brine maker and truck. Filled the truck and had the brine maker full so we could fill again during a storm.

We have also noticed with the electronic controls on our sprayers that anyone is capable of spraying without over or under applying. This has also increased our efficiency because we can trust anyone to spray.

We have noticed nothing but an increase in efficiency. We have devoted many hours to fine tuning the process however. Like anything new, there is a learning curve. Time must be invested to make sure everything works as efficiently as possible.


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## Broncslefty7

*i agree a little bit*



fireside;2123336 said:


> I have been looking into liquids for the past couple of years. What I have learned in my area is the logistics by far out way any limited cost savings. At a rate of 80 gallons per acre on a pickup that can carry 200 gallons my service area is limited. I can't have storage tanks on site how do I refill. Using salt hopper empty go back to the pile and reload. No fancy storage system need just a pile on the ground. I would like to know how you handle the logistics or distance from refill locations
> 
> In my area we have a very large landscaping company try a liquid program after the first season they sold half the equipment and the second season it was all gone! They didn't see the saving or benifits of the products. They found quite the opposite results. The logistic just killed it. I was able to look at the hard numbers they don't lie.


i see where you are coming from, i am in newington CT., logistics is a huge part of this, i will need to fill up a 300 gallon tank 2.5 times to do the same amount of acreage that i can do with 1 load of salt.

however when i run the numbers, i have a 3 acre lot, so that is roughly 2400 lbs of rock salt which would cost me $96.00 just in material, now if i was applying liquid that would be 270 Gallons costing me $54.00 in material. my problem is, where my shop is i cannot have a salt shed, so everytime i need salt i have to drive down to the guy selling it on the berlin turnpike. he is only open 4 am to 4 pm, so i have to get it when he is open and if i need more i am out of luck until the next day. i can store liquid at my shop no problem which adds a bit of convenience, which i also believe carries some value. i think i may build a 500 gallon system next year for my f-550, i already have everything here to do it, so it shouldnt cost too much money. if i am applying 100 gallons per acre which is a little higher than what i think it will be, i can treat the same amount of acreage that i could with 2 yards of salt. 500 gallons of brine at 20 cents per gallon on the high side would have a material cost of $100.00 and a load of salt in a 2 yd spreader is currently costing me $191.63 (and thats because salt stayed cheap this year). 12 of my 15 accounts are within 2 miles of my shop which also helps a lot with logistics, the two big accounts i have are about a 10 minute drive, and they are rite next door to each other.


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## fireside

I see your point. I'm not tied to anyone for salt. I store it in two locations. If it's snowing we have a machine running.It is much more expensive to buy by the load than bulk. I think my plan is try a small pre treat setup next year. I have no room for storage tanks so I'm very limited.


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## SaratogaSnowPro

Good thinking.. So yes you can do more with liquids... Now do the math adding 20% IBG Magic to the brine... 2.90 gallon for magic. 20%=.58 plus brine.20 is .78 per gallon for mixed brine... So at a rate of 25-40 per acre you will be able to cover 13-21 acres with 525 gallons.. cost is a slightly a bit more($19-31 but you get more out of it...-5, it's sticking on the pavement longer, less corrosive and less product needed.. You may want to try it out.. Maybe you only need a 300 gallon tank for the amount you need to pretreat?


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## Broncslefty7

*fireside*



fireside;2123541 said:


> I see your point. I'm not tied to anyone for salt. I store it in two locations. If it's snowing we have a machine running.It is much more expensive to buy by the load than bulk. I think my plan is try a small pre treat setup next year. I have no room for storage tanks so I'm very limited.


next year i have two lots in hartford that will be straight liquids, they like them this year so far. if you want msge me your cell number and i can start sending you some results, seeing as our winter was a flop this year we may end up waiting until next year to try this, but i have no issue with sharing results. with the locals. if you want i can make you a batch so you dont have to go all in without testing it. my cost to make is like 15 cents per gallon.


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