# Is 23% salt brine really the most efficient



## turn54 (Jan 7, 2010)

Continued from post #1645 & 1646 on page 83 of "Anything Sprayer Related, likes, dislikes, pics, Questions?" Thread

I wanted to start a new thread as the discussion had changed courses.



White Gardens;1902489 said:


> That is a an extremely good point. Basically putting more actual salt down, even though your freeze point might be higher.
> 
> Really in essence, any liquid brine application will dilute when it hits the snow or ice that it's melting.
> 
> ...


Most important part of my whole post >>>

*In my opinion, tweaking salt percentage of brine would only be marginally beneficial, if at all. And should only be done to a higher percentage of salt in the brine.*

Customization of mix would make very minimal difference for different climates. Once you get to colder/more extreme climates it is easier adding other chemical's (such as calcium chloride) to "spike" the mix instead of trying to control the precision of salt content percentage post application.

It would make more sense to adjust for application(ie: pre-treat, anti-ice, melting accumulation vs post plow). Basically the higher the moisture content, the more dilution, the higher the salt percentage should be in the brine.

The most important question would be is it more cost effective to make a higher salt concentration brine or just apply more of the same product. Only you could crunch the numbers and figure this out. To many variables from cost of materials(internally manufactured or purchased), applicator efficiency including labor, brine storage capacity, and location of jobs to brine supply to name a few. Under general conditions, I would say the increased cost of additional salt & labor(mixing time) for an internally manufactured brine would be considerably cheaper than increased application rates.



White Gardens;1902502 said:


> Here is something else I want to bring up also.
> 
> Is temperature correction really necessary?
> 
> ...


I have never adjusted for temperature except when I tried 180 degree water to see how much it increased production. Most of my brine production has consisted of water measuring between 50 and 62 degrees. This would head minimal difference. By the way 180 degree water didn't increase production in my particular brine maker. It did manage to steam up the entire 50 degree shop.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Good idea posting this separately. Thumbs Up

I'd like to see some other opinions on this also.

Here's something else I'd like to point out also.

If you are just per-treating salt, and not doing a full liquid application, would you be better off going with say a 17%-18% solution?

Ultimately you don't want your brine to freeze, but the whole point is to get more moisture on the salt and pavement to start the brine process, especially in the case of dry snow with a 15-1 moisture ratio.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

And just to throw some numbers out there for the discussion.

*If* my math is correct, as I converted metric measurements, are correct.

Per 400 gal batches (which seems to be the two tote batch that is common)

25% solution= 840lbs of nacl

23% solution= 764lbs of nacl

21% solution= 696lbs of nacl

Somebody can double check my math if they want.

25% solution. 25grams of nacl per 100 grams of water. 3780grams in on gallon of water. Rounded, there is 454grams in a pound.

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## turn54 (Jan 7, 2010)

White Gardens;1903449 said:


> And just to throw some numbers out there for the discussion.
> 
> *If* my math is correct, as I converted metric measurements, are correct.
> 
> ...


Not sure of your math, but I always start with 2.2lbs/gal and have to add a little extra salt after that to get it to 23%. This puts me closer to 900lbs per 400 gal batch. The bulk salt I get is not as clean as pure nacl which results in 1/2 ton of bulk salt per 400 gal in my case to get closer to 24% that I usually shoot for.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Touche.

I guess the point of the hard math was to show the difference between the batches and percentages.

Thus pointing out the minimal cost difference in batches that you eluded to.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I can't find the phase diagram I need, but basically if you don't have 23.3% you will create ice under certain conditions instead of melting it. 

It's been a long time, and people far smarter than me have figured it out. Something to do with the higher the percentage and the lower the temp, the chance for icing goes up.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;1903650 said:


> I can't find the phase diagram I need, but basically if you don't have 23.3% you will create ice under certain conditions instead of melting it.
> 
> It's been a long time, and people far smarter than me have figured it out. Something to do with the higher the percentage and the lower the temp, the chance for icing goes up.


Is that for spraying bare pavement during pre-treatment? That I can see.

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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;1903650 said:


> I can't find the phase diagram I need, but basically if you don't have 23.3% you will create ice under certain conditions instead of melting it.
> 
> It's been a long time, and people far smarter than me have figured it out. Something to do with the higher the percentage and the lower the temp, the chance for icing goes up.


Yep I agree, that was floating around years ago and now has just become a fact to me. I don't remember the exact reason now though about the higher %...maybe the salt falls out of suspension and takes the whole brine down percentage wise to far below the 23.3 or something like that. As MarkO said "people far smarter then I have figured it out."

Same goes with LCC, but it's above like 33% or something...


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## grnstripes (Oct 18, 2008)

I have been playing with liquids for a couple years now 
And have gone from buying it to now building a maker 
So I am subscribing to this forum. Hopefully I can learn a little more 
I do remember several years ago the state turned the interstate into a skating rink with brine because the numbers were too high so it dose happen


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

turn54;1903333 said:


> *In my opinion, tweaking salt percentage of brine would only be marginally beneficial, if at all. And should only be done to a higher percentage of salt in the brine.*
> 
> Customization of mix would make very minimal difference for different climates. Once you get to colder/more extreme climates it is easier adding other chemical's (such as calcium chloride) to "spike" the mix instead of trying to control the precision of salt content percentage post application.


I think this needs to be discussed more......

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## Digger63 (Dec 16, 2010)

If you look it up you'll find that at around 23% salt brine has it's lowest freeze point. either way on the chart the freeze point moves up. It's something like the ratio of pure radiator fluid to water. Most people who produce brine make it in quanities and store it outside. At this 23 % area the freezing point is about -6 degrees. Adding various amounts of chemicals and or organics can lower this freeze point for storage and use. the ground temperture plays a factor for anti-icing. If the ground temperture is lower than the freeze point of the liquid you will probably create the ice skating rink that you were trying to avoid. Raising the percentage of salt up you are putting more salt per gallon of liquid and actually raising the freeze point. As a prewet solution if you can keep it from freezing, having more salt in the liquid would add to the rock salt that you are applying. Being that you are putting solid salt down anyway I don't see benefit of doing this. Usually you are prewetting for enhancing the salt's freeze point usage and reducing the scatter effect that sanders have


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## SnowMatt13 (Jan 8, 2003)

Google brine phase diagram and you will find it.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

What I find interesting is that Mag Chloride isn't linear.

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## Lynden-Jeff (May 21, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;1903650 said:


> I can't find the phase diagram I need, but basically if you don't have 23.3% you will create ice under certain conditions instead of melting it.
> 
> It's been a long time, and people far smarter than me have figured it out. Something to do with the higher the percentage and the lower the temp, the chance for icing goes up.


This is absolutely correct.

There is zero benefit in tweaking the saturation of a sodium chloride brine. By applying rock salt to the road, we are effectively applying 100% sodium chloride which then uses existing ground moisture to create "brine". By making and applying brine, we are reducing potency by 77% already, while applying it in a "brine" state.

In essence we are making our jobs HARDER by applying brine instead of rock salt. This comes with benefits however as almost EVERY contractor over applies salt to "ensure liability" is covered etc. How many times have you done an extra loop around the lot just to see it "start melting". With brine this it is much LESS likely to overapply and much more likely to under apply however we can see it start melting immediately. This is not necessarily true with calcium chloride which changes the situation completely. Spray brine requires the use of much larger, heavier trucks as water is extremely heavy. Factor in this:

- 5 ton of salt spread with an F550 weighs 11,0000 lbs. 
- Applying even half amount of salt in the form of brine weighs 14 ton (based on approx 2500 Gal of brine)

After applying Tens of thousands of gallons of brine and calcium chloride I can pass on the following to people considering liquids:

- Brine/calcium chloride is an asset to a de-icing program but does not replace rocksalt completely. 
- Prewetting pavement surfaces is a good liability reduction method and may help in certain circumstances (high traffic lots during daytime storms, melting very light snowfalls etc),
- Pretreating your salt at the spinner or on the pile directly with a proper %calcium chloride can reduce your salt usage by 30-50% as you will see the salt start to work immediately. This is personally my favorite use of Calcium hands down. Calcium is an amazing catalyst for sodium chloride.

Hope that helps.


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