# Municipal Airport Snow Removal



## acswaupaca1 (Jun 5, 2017)

Just looking for feedback from companies who do this for their cities. What do you provide for service, how do you charge, recommendations of things to consider during bidding. 

I've checked into insurance, I know, it's big dollars, starts at $5,000 a year plus $1800 for workman's comp.

I'm looking into a retainer to cover yearly insurance and equipment costs.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

That’s pretty good for insurance. Or is that for just the single site? Either way on something that big that should be a drop in the bucket. Where are you located? Around here municipalities take care f their own airports. So, having a private contractor handle it, is interesting to me at least.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Our little airport has about 25 pieces of equipment on site,a couple of those big blowers.Whole different universe!


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

How do you know what your workers comp is going to cost before you know what you are going to charge to provide what ever service you are going to provide?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

@Aerospace Eng

This is right up your strike zone


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## acswaupaca1 (Jun 5, 2017)

ktfbgb said:


> That's pretty good for insurance. Or is that for just the single site? Either way on something that big that should be a drop in the bucket. Where are you located? Around here municipalities take care f their own airports. So, having a private contractor handle it, is interesting to me at least.


Just one sites cost.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> How do you know what your workers comp is going to cost before you know what you are going to charge to provide what ever service you are going to provide?


His insurance costs would be very cheap for here. The comp would start at ten thousand. Then be gone over at the end of the period, then adjusted and you would get a refund, or a bill.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Randall Ave said:


> His insurance costs would be very cheap for here. The comp would start at ten thousand. Then be gone over at the end of the period, then adjusted and you would get a refund, or a bill.


Precisely what I am saying.

WC is based on the amount of payroll that you pay out. If you don't even know the service that you are going to be providing, how do you know how much/ little WC you are going to be paying.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Here, they just say, this is the minimum to start, write the check please.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Randall Ave said:


> Here, they just say, this is the minimum to start, write the check please.


That's much worse than here. WC is $3,000.00 min. Then adjusted after the annual audit. It's right around 1/3 of wages paid. It's funny that after every audit I usually owe exactly what the estimate for the year was. I NEVER get a refund for some reason lol.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> Here, they just say, this is the minimum to start, write the check please.


Yes you will have a audit and then your rate will go up. Unless your sole then you just pay the minimal. They never actually give you a refund it's usually a credit.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

OP do you know your MOD?

Are you still in the pool or not?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

FredG said:


> Yes you will have a audit and then your rate will go up. Unless your sole then you just pay the minimal. They never actually give you a refund it's usually a credit.


Most years I get s little back. Last year, they had it way too low, we tried to tell them, after the audit, I got a bill for 4500.00.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Philbilly2 said:


> @Aerospace Eng
> 
> This is right up your strike zone


I wish I had some more useful input. I don't know of any airport around here that farms out snow clearing operations. I suppose some might on the landside (non aviation side).

The airside is completely different, and how they address it varies from airport to airport. Most small airports (without scheduled commercial traffic) wait until the snow stops before they plow, since the visibility is generally too low to land when it is snowing anyway. A huge difference with what I generally see on here is that salt is prohibited on the airside of airports. In fact, the airport I am at does not salt the landside since they do not want any possibility of salt making it to the airside, since people can and do drive to their hangars. Salt eats airplane components, and at $50K for a set of brakes (pads and discs) and another $25K per wheel for the wheel itself on many business jets, as well as the possibility of damage to other airplane components, it isn't worth the risk.

I would expect that you would be subject to Davis-Bacon or equivalent. I would also expect large liability requirements.


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

I fly from KSCA. Its owned by the municipality and they just gave the aiport a f550 and boss blade so the airport manager can plow as he wants. Id second the statement of no salt. No way.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I wish I had some more useful input. I don't know of any airport around here that farms out snow clearing operations. I suppose some might on the landside (non aviation side).
> 
> The airside is completely different, and how they address it varies from airport to airport. Most small airports (without scheduled commercial traffic) wait until the snow stops before they plow, since the visibility is generally too low to land when it is snowing anyway. A huge difference with what I generally see on here is that salt is prohibited on the airside of airports. In fact, the airport I am at does not salt the landside since they do not want any possibility of salt making it to the airside, since people can and do drive to their hangars. Salt eats airplane components, and at $50K for a set of brakes (pads and discs) and another $25K per wheel for the wheel itself on many business jets, as well as the possibility of damage to other airplane components, it isn't worth the risk.
> 
> I would expect that you would be subject to Davis-Bacon or equivalent. I would also expect large liability requirements.


Could it be that perhaps the city is subbing out some of it? So it wouldn't be a private contractor taking care of it, just so that they didn't have to pay for more equipment? I guess like you said maybe its just the Public areas, parking and walks. I dont know if you are familiar with our airport in Flagstaff (FLG). But its pretty small. When I was with the Fire Department we did annual training out on the runway because we were a mutual aid partner with the City and we were second due on scene because of our location. Security was extremely tight on the aviation side. I have a hard time believing that they would sub out any operations on the aviation side purely for security reasons, but you never know.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Randall Ave said:


> Most years I get s little back. Last year, they had it way too low, we tried to tell them, after the audit, I got a bill for 4500.00.


I wish I had that problem... I severely underestimate every year... I am always hoping I die before I get audited... forget insurance companies.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Maclawnco said:


> I fly from KSCA. Its owned by the municipality and they just gave the aiport a f550 and boss blade so the airport manager can plow as he wants. Id second the statement of no salt. No way.


If you wind up at KPJC, let me know.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

KFLG would be much more restrictive than a typical GA airport, as it has commercial service from PHX.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I wish I had some more useful input. I don't know of any airport around here that farms out snow clearing operations. I suppose some might on the landside (non aviation side).
> 
> The airside is completely different, and how they address it varies from airport to airport. Most small airports (without scheduled commercial traffic) wait until the snow stops before they plow, since the visibility is generally too low to land when it is snowing anyway. A huge difference with what I generally see on here is that salt is prohibited on the airside of airports. In fact, the airport I am at does not salt the landside since they do not want any possibility of salt making it to the airside, since people can and do drive to their hangars. Salt eats airplane components, and at $50K for a set of brakes (pads and discs) and another $25K per wheel for the wheel itself on many business jets, as well as the possibility of damage to other airplane components, it isn't worth the risk.
> 
> I would expect that you would be subject to Davis-Bacon or equivalent. I would also expect large liability requirements.


I always appreciate your input.

50K FOR BRAKES!!!

I picked the wrong line of work...


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

In ct Bradley BDL is plowed by contractors. The only thing the state guys do is the runways and some of the taxiways.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Aerospace Eng said:


> KFLG would be much more restrictive than a typical GA airport, as it has commercial service from PHX.


Got it. I guess i was envisioning a small commercial/private like we have instead of a strictly private airport that didn't connect with a major airport. I was assuming that a municipal airport would connect with other airports. But I really dont know anything about them outside of KFLG and then big airports that ive flown into.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

25K for the brake assembly part on the main gear of Cessna CJ3s. 

Unfortunately, the maintenance personnel are not well paid. Generally less than auto mechanics at higher end dealerships.

Independent shop rates for small aircraft are typically $60 to $75 per hour. 

Small aircraft are cheaper than the jets of course. Pads and a disk for each main on a 172 would be about $600. 

To keep it somewhat on topic, many small airports just have a single pickup with a straight blade. It can take a day or more to get operational if you get dumped on.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

ktfbgb said:


> Got it. I guess i was envisioning a small commercial/private like we have instead of a strictly private airport that didn't connect with a major airport. I was assuming that a municipal airport would connect with other airports. But I really dont know anything about them outside of KFLG and then big airports that ive flown into.


Most municipal airports are like Sedona KSEZ.
KFLG would be considered a regional airport.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Most municipal airports are like Sedona KSEZ.
> KFLG would be considered a regional airport.


Got it. I understand now. Sometimes it takes me a while lol.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Aerospace Eng said:


> To keep it somewhat on topic, many small airports just have a single pickup with a straight blade. It can take a day or more to get operational if you get dumped on.


That is the way that "Sandwich International" operates...


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Zelienople Airport is fortunate. The manager also runs Pittsburgh Jet Center, so he wants to get his planes in and out. From a late 90's F250 with an 8' Meyer, the airport now has 2 Ex penndot plows, one with a wing, the other with a tailgate sander (rarely used), a 16' broom on a Barko forestry machine, a 1948 Sicard blower (reengineered in 1984 with 2 cycle Detroits), and my truck and telehandler with pushers (and the pickup). 2 hours after the snow stops everything is done.


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