# Have low ballers permanently ruined pricing?



## gcbailey

I've posted a similar thread a couple years back and I know there's others out there but.... 

As the title says, has proper pricing became totally unachievable due to either people's ignorance on pricing or the fact this is just side money to them?

I was contacted by a new owner of 3 gas stations, all within 10 miles of each other, 1 literally 2 minutes from my shop. Decent size lots for gas station (35k to 45k sq ft of pavement), each total of 8 pumps, 5 bay car wash.... 

Before giving them prices on each the owner says "So far the highest price including salt is $80 per push". I just told her there's no way I could even start to touch that and half jokingly asked for the guys number to see if he wants to sub.


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## thelettuceman

Don't lose any sleep over this. Don't compete in this space. If a gas station owner wants to engage the lowest price instead of the best value, let him/her do that. Without even being in the business, common sense should tell the owner, this price is too low.
If that same gas station wanted to charge 50 cents a gallon for gas, I would not touch it. You don't know what you are putting in your vehicle. 'nough said!!!


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## gcbailey

No, I'm not losing any sleep. It just seems to me that this type of pricing in my area and apparently more widespread is becoming the norm. I wasn't out looking for business this is just one of those things that I'm just thinking "wow...". Scratch my head, shrug my shoulders and go on about it.


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## jonniesmooth

gcbailey said:


> I've posted a similar thread a couple years back and I know there's others out there but....
> 
> As the title says, has proper pricing became totally unachievable due to either people's ignorance on pricing or the fact this is just side money to them?
> 
> I was contacted by a new owner of 3 gas stations, all within 10 miles of each other, 1 literally 2 minutes from my shop. Decent size lots for gas station (35k to 45k sq ft of pavement), each total of 8 pumps, 5 bay car wash....
> 
> Before giving them prices on each the owner says "So far the highest price including salt is $80 per push". I just told her there's no way I could even start to touch that and half jokingly asked for the guys number to see if he wants to sub.


He's lying.
I had a poop head try to steal one of my accounts.
He came in and said he would do it for 20% less than they were paying now.
Well guess what?
Mr. Poop Head meet Mr. Shister.
Mr. Shister tells him they are paying 25% less than they actually are.
So Poophead is going to do it for 45% less than me.
But then Mr.Shister's wife found out about it, it's her business and he's husband #2.
She told him in no uncertain terms who was driving the bus around there.
She sold the business years ago,got rid of him too and I still plow her driveway.


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## FlakePusher

jonniesmooth said:


> But then Mr.Shister's wife found out about it, it's her business and he's husband #2.
> She told him in no uncertain terms who was driving the bus around there.
> She sold the business years ago,got rid of him too and I still plow her driveway.


So does that make you husband #3? :laugh::laugh:


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## Mark Oomkes

It's a combination of a multitude of factors, some of which you state.

1) Morons who don't know how to price.
2) Morons who purposefully underbid.
3) Morons who think they can make it up in volume.
4) Moron NSP's who have turned a service into a commodity.
5) Morons who make their initial price look low, but everything else is ala carte and they screw the customer on the extras. 

2-5 are generally driven by ego (or greed) and want to be the biggest. 

1 is based on ignorance...whether purposefully (not trying to educate one's self) or just not knowing better due to lack of experience.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc.

jonniesmooth said:


> He's lying.
> I had a poop head try to steal one of my accounts.
> He came in and said he would do it for 20% less than they were paying now.
> Well guess what?
> Mr. Poop Head meet Mr. Shister.
> Mr. Shister tells him they are paying 25% less than they actually are.
> So Poophead is going to do it for 45% less than me.
> But then Mr.Shister's wife found out about it, it's her business and he's husband #2.
> She told him in no uncertain terms who was driving the bus around there.
> She sold the business years ago,got rid of him too and I still plow her driveway.


It was probably bad for business if she took his last name too


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## jonniesmooth

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> It was probably bad for business if she took his last name too


Honestly, his last name escapes me ri....
Nope,got it, Melius (sp?)
She didn't change hers, and the business name stayed the same too.
He was bad for the business,no doubt.
Lots,lots more to the story.


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## m_ice

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's a combination of a multitude of factors, some of which you state.
> 
> 1) Morons who don't know how to price.
> 2) Morons who purposefully underbid.
> 3) Morons who think they can make it up in volume.
> 4) Moron NSP's who have turned a service into a commodity.
> 5) Morons who make their initial price look low, but everything else is ala carte and they screw the customer on the extras.
> 
> 2-5 are generally driven by ego (or greed) and want to be the biggest.
> 
> 1 is based on ignorance...whether purposefully (not trying to educate one's self) or just not knowing better due to lack of experience.


Number 4 and 5 irk me the most


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc.

jonniesmooth said:


> Honestly, his last name escapes me ri....
> Nope,got it, Melius (sp?)
> She didn't change hers, and the business name stayed the same too.
> He was bad for the business,no doubt.
> Lots,lots more to the story.


Ah, was a bad attempt at a joke...shister would be a terrible last name


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## EWSplow

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's a combination of a multitude of factors, some of which you state.
> 
> 1) Morons who don't know how to price.
> 2) Morons who purposefully underbid.
> 3) Morons who think they can make it up in volume.
> 4) Moron NSP's who have turned a service into a commodity.
> 5) Morons who make their initial price look low, but everything else is ala carte and they screw the customer on the extras.
> 
> 2-5 are generally driven by ego (or greed) and want to be the biggest.
> 
> 1 is based on ignorance...whether purposefully (not trying to educate one's self) or just not knowing better due to lack of experience.


I agree with @m_ice.
The NSPs will find someone with a spreader on an S10, or whatever it was.
#5 seems to be the way the big snow only operators work from what I've heard.
As for gas stations, without sounding racist, certain cultures are used to haggling. I have a friend who does sewer and water work and does quite a few new gas stations and car washes. Here's a tip he gave me; submit a bid 10% or so higher than what it will take and let them haggle you down to your initial price. Another thing I've experienced with gas stations is they like to barter.

As for other fly by night low ballers in general, they won't be in business long, and will be replaced by another next year. Market your professionalism and number of years in business.


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## jonniesmooth

FlakePusher said:


> So does that make you husband #3? :laugh::laugh:


Nope,her youngest son and I have been friends since grade school.


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## gcbailey

EWSplow said:


> I agree with @m_ice.
> The NSPs will find someone with a spreader on an S10, or whatever it was.
> #5 seems to be the way the big snow only operators work from what I've heard.
> As for gas stations, without sounding racist, certain cultures are used to haggling. I have a friend who does sewer and water work and does quite a few new gas stations and car washes. Here's a tip he gave me; submit a bid 10% or so higher than what it will take and let them haggle you down to your initial price. Another thing I've experienced with gas stations is they like to barter.
> 
> As for other fly by night low ballers in general, they won't be in business long, and will be replaced by another next year. Market your professionalism and number of years in business.


Typically we only plow for commercial clients that we service year round. Maybe it's an ego thing but if we can't maintain the site when the grass is growing I don't care about maintaining it when it's snowing. We do have 2 commercial sites that are plow only but that's only because there isn't any grass to cut.

I know what you're saying about cultures, this particular culture is how do you say.... what was that country song about ******* women?


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## Kman2298

Gas stations and nationals always seem to go cheap. A lot of commercials go to the lowest bidder. I find HOA's and malls tend to be willing to pay for service. I do two gas stations in exchange for fuel ..... still almost not worth it


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## scottr

Let me ask a question, Do you think some of this is driven by the new culture of buy on line, get it cheaper on Amazon, big box stores driving out the Mom & Pop places?? They get what they pay for I feel and hopefully they are gone soon. I’m often told my prices are higher than Joeys Quick Plow, I say, yep I am and for a good reason.


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## FlakePusher

jonniesmooth said:


> Nope,her youngest son and I have been friends since grade school.


haha, when you said you "still plow her driveway" I wanted to ask if her "driveway" is smooth as ice, or a grassy patch.


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## Mark Oomkes

scottr said:


> Let me ask a question, Do you think some of this is driven by the new culture of buy on line, get it cheaper on Amazon, big box stores driving out the Mom & Pop places?? They get what they pay for I feel and hopefully they are gone soon. I'm often told my prices are higher than Joeys Quick Plow, I say, yep I am and for a good reason.


Walmartization?

Everything should be cheap?


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## EWSplow

scottr said:


> Let me ask a question, Do you think some of this is driven by the new culture of buy on line, get it cheaper on Amazon, big box stores driving out the Mom & Pop places?? They get what they pay for I feel and hopefully they are gone soon. I'm often told my prices are higher than Joeys Quick Plow, I say, yep I am and for a good reason.





Mark Oomkes said:


> Walmartization?
> 
> Everything should be cheap?


Tell them your trucks and plows weren't made in China like the stuff they're buying on amazon and at Walmart.


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## gcbailey

scottr said:


> Let me ask a question, Do you think some of this is driven by the new culture of buy on line, get it cheaper on Amazon, big box stores driving out the Mom & Pop places?? They get what they pay for I feel and hopefully they are gone soon. I'm often told my prices are higher than Joeys Quick Plow, I say, yep I am and for a good reason.


Probably has something to do with it.... Yes, I will agree. Ultimately though I think a lot of it is just ignorance and people not knowing their cost. Just like with cutting grass, guys that are legit in my area and "do it for a living" are going to be $20+ a lawn more expensive than someone doing it as a "side hussle" or "beer money" type. No offense, but in my area the worst guys out pricing stuff are firefighters trying to pay for their F350 king ranch.


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## jonniesmooth

gcbailey said:


> Probably has something to do with it.... Yes, I will agree. Ultimately though I think a lot of it is just ignorance and people not knowing their cost. Just like with cutting grass, guys that are legit in my area and "do it for a living" are going to be $20+ a lawn more expensive than someone doing it as a "side hussle" or "beer money" type. No offense, but in my area the worst guys out pricing stuff are firefighters trying to pay for their F350 king ranch.


Laughing at the last part.


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## Ajlawn1

gcbailey said:


> No offense, but in my area the worst guys out pricing stuff are firefighters trying to pay for their F350 king ranch.


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## Mark Oomkes

I was a firefighter and had a King Ranch...and then it burned.


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## gcbailey

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was a firefighter and had a King Ranch...and then it burned.


Should have went with the platinum edition...


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## Mark Oomkes

gcbailey said:


> Should have went with the platinum edition...


Bought it when Furd was doing employee pricing and whatever. They had it on the lot and it was less than if I had ordered what I wanted. I miss the interior but not the 6.0.

Plus I was POC, not career.


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## TwiceStroked

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's a combination of a multitude of factors, some of which you state.
> 
> 1) Morons who don't know how to price.
> 2) Morons who purposefully underbid.
> 3) Morons who think they can make it up in volume.
> 4) Moron NSP's who have turned a service into a commodity.
> 5) Morons who make their initial price look low, but everything else is ala carte and they screw the customer on the extras.
> 
> 2-5 are generally driven by ego (or greed) and want to be the biggest.
> 
> 1 is based on ignorance...whether purposefully (not trying to educate one's self) or just not knowing better due to lack of experience.


4got, the uninsured part


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## Rook

In my area insurance companies have increased rates for everyone around 5x on average, heard from quite a few that are calling it quits. 

As for gas stations.. they’re cheap af


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## gcbailey

Rook said:


> In my area insurance companies have increased rates for everyone around 5x on average, heard from quite a few that are calling it quits.
> 
> As for gas stations.. they're cheap af


Ya.... I'm definitely looking for new insurance when the renewal comes up. I've been with Travelers for 15 years but every year for the past 4, up, up, up, and never had a claim. Workers comp same way.


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## Rook

The more dummies in the industry the higher the rates lol


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## Owner/operator

Speaking on behalf of a person who has not plowed at all. But has been researching for over a year...I think part of the problem is the guys complaining about it.....when new guys ask they get mostly smart ass or belittling comments, (who wants to hear that all the time)..then there is the figure out your overhead cost answer, but when he does his price is still too low...alI i can say is once I start making the big coins you guys make, I will strive to not have the ego and arrogance that seems to come with it. It seems to be the same with the whole green industry and hardscape.


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## Ice-sage

jonniesmooth said:


> Mr. Poop Head meet Mr. Shister.


I thought it was spelled shyster. Not to be confused with calling a woman a spinster...


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## Rook

Owner/operator said:


> Speaking on behalf of a person who has not plowed at all. But has been researching for over a year...I think part of the problem is the guys complaining about it.....when new guys ask they get mostly smart ass or belittling comments, (who wants to hear that all the time)..then there is the figure out your overhead cost answer, but when he does his price is still too low...alI i can say is once I start making the big coins you guys make, I will strive to not have the ego and arrogance that seems to come with it. It seems to be the same with the whole green industry and hardscape.


You have much to learn young padawan.
Don't confuse sense of humour and tough skin with ego. There's plenty of help in this forum


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## Mark Oomkes

Owner/operator said:


> Speaking on behalf of a person who has not plowed at all. But has been researching for over a year...I think part of the problem is the guys complaining about it.....when new guys ask they get mostly smart ass or belittling comments, (who wants to hear that all the time)..then there is the figure out your overhead cost answer, but when he does his price is still too low...alI i can say is once I start making the big coins you guys make, I will strive to not have the ego and arrogance that seems to come with it. It seems to be the same with the whole green industry and hardscape.


Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for life.

I try to answer a question about the industry with a question. Not to be a smartass but to get the questioner to think it through on his own.

Besides, I don't know your costs so what good does it do to tell someone what I charge?


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## Kvston

I’d say the low baller is helping now: they are quitting in my area! Just got 3 new sites today since the other guy didn’t show up the last storm. Now i have all the sites for this client in one town at my prices + a bit cause of last minute. Next I’ll get the other town‘s sites.


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## Owner/operator

Rook said:


> You have much to learn young padawan.
> Don't confuse sense of humour and tough skin with ego. There's plenty of help in this forum


I agree 100% or I wouldn't be here.....Padawan?.....ready player one?


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## Owner/operator

Kvston said:


> I'd say the low baller is helping now: they are quitting in my area! Just got 3 new sites today since the other guy didn't show up the last storm. Now i have all the sites for this client in one town at my prices + a bit cause of last minute. Next I'll get the other town's sites.


That's what went on all year for me landscaping.....


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## Owner/operator

Mark Oomkes said:


> Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for life.
> 
> I try to answer a question about the industry with a question. Not to be a smartass but to get the questioner to think it through on his own.
> 
> Besides, I don't know your costs so what good does it do to tell someone what I charge?


I agree with that....that's why I have always done my own math....


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## WIPensFan

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not to be a smartass but


. I would hate to see when you ARE being a smartass.



Owner/operator said:


> Speaking on behalf of a person who has not plowed at all. But has been researching for over a year...I think part of the problem is the guys complaining about it.....when new guys ask they get mostly smart ass or belittling comments, (who wants to hear that all the time)..then there is the figure out your overhead cost answer, but when he does his price is still too low...alI i can say is once I start making the big coins you guys make, I will strive to not have the ego and arrogance that seems to come with it. It seems to be the same with the whole green industry and hardscape.


I'm guilty of being a (jerk) sometimes. You're right, this happens all to frequently here. But as was said, let it roll off you as much as you can. It's the internet. I bet 100% of the people on here would help you out face to face. And most people on here are giving solid advice, it's just not always presented well or misinterpreted as snarky because that's not the answer you wanted. Also, after years and years of the prime of your life spent dealing with ungrateful idiots trying to get as much work out of you for as little money as possible, you come out pretty hardened and I'll tempered. Not to mention employees who try to destroy your sanity. So come back after 20-40 yrs and see how your personality changes, even though right now, you swear to never be like @Mark Oomkes


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## Ajlawn1

Got two of these yesterday.... The other said backflow leaking all over the place making an ice rink... Im guessing in the long run these businesses are paying so much more then they really need to... LMAO...


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc.

Ajlawn1 said:


> Got two of these yesterday.... The other said backflow leaking all over the place making an ice rink... Im guessing in the long run these businesses are paying so much more then they really need to... LMAO...
> 
> View attachment 225625


Backflow is outside at the other site?


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## Ajlawn1

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Backflow is outside at the other site?


I would assume so if it was making an ice rink... But now it's just helping the flooding...


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc.

Ajlawn1 said:


> I would assume so if it was making an ice rink... But now it's just helping the flooding...


Common thing on commercial sites in your area for backflows to be outside?


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## Ajlawn1

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Common thing on commercial sites in your area for backflows to be outside?


I've seen both, not sure to be honest... I know city will test them free.


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## Mark Oomkes

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Common thing on commercial sites in your area for backflows to be outside?


Very


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## Mark Oomkes

Ajlawn1 said:


> Im guessing in the long run these businesses are paying so much more then they really need to... LMAO...


Es


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## Mark Oomkes

Owner/operator said:


> I agree with that....that's why I have always done my own math....


The other aspect is, would you really like guys with years of experience to blow sunshine up your butt about how this bizness is all pixie dust and roses when in reality it's hard work, long hours, crappy weather, screws up family life, worthless forecasts that are completely undependable, etc, etc, etc.

Tough love isn't always the wrong way.


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## jato

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's a combination of a multitude of factors, some of which you state.
> 
> 1) Morons who don't know how to price.
> 2) Morons who purposefully underbid.
> 3) Morons who think they can make it up in volume.
> 4) Moron NSP's who have turned a service into a commodity.
> 5) Morons who make their initial price look low, but everything else is ala carte and they screw the customer on the extras.
> 
> 2-5 are generally driven by ego (or greed) and want to be the biggest.
> 
> 1 is based on ignorance...whether purposefully (not trying to educate one's self) or just not knowing better due to lack of experience.


Yup this all makes sense. And by lowballing we are basically talking about someone who is at least 30% below a sensible rate, right?

I think some companies use snow the same way others use lawn mowing. As a loss leader to give their guys someplace to make hours and keep them paid. If you have a guy who can execute $30k hardscaping jobs every 2-3 weeks in the summer at a big margin, you don't mind paying him 70% of revenue for 4 months in winter. 
This might be #6 for Mark's list. (?)


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## jato

Owner/operator said:


> Speaking on behalf of a person who has not plowed at all. But has been researching for over a year...I think part of the problem is the guys complaining about it.....when new guys ask they get mostly smart ass or belittling comments, (who wants to hear that all the time)..then there is the figure out your overhead cost answer, but when he does his price is still too low...alI i can say is once I start making the big coins you guys make, I will strive to not have the ego and arrogance that seems to come with it. It seems to be the same with the whole green industry and hardscape.


To paraphrase @Rook here, it's "do or do not. There is no try." Read for a few weeks then get out there and start giving your numbers and pitching potential clients. If you pay attention you will find out very fast when you're working, whether or not your numbers are correct.
The insurance thing is no joke. Every 4-5 years for the price of my insurance, I could get a nearly new 60+ HP tractor and snowblower. You have to hit certain revenue numbers or you're going to be out of pocket in summertime for the winter insurance.

This forum is incredibly valuable. I've run into a lot of conflicting opinions, but not really seen any bragging or showing off on here.


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## gcbailey

Owner/operator said:


> Speaking on behalf of a person who has not plowed at all. But has been researching for over a year...I think part of the problem is the guys complaining about it.....when new guys ask they get mostly smart ass or belittling comments, (who wants to hear that all the time)..then there is the figure out your overhead cost answer, but when he does his price is still too low...alI i can say is once I start making the big coins you guys make, I will strive to not have the ego and arrogance that seems to come with it. It seems to be the same with the whole green industry and hardscape.


I'm more than willing to teach anyone. I've got a dozen more years on the green side than I do on the white side. For years I subbed out all of my plowing on my turnkey accounts but my source wanted to retire so....

The only thing that aggravates me are people who think everyone makes bank and doesn't realize the difference between net and gross. True, if you price correct you should come out ahead but in my area at least there's a lot of "daddy money" from guys either mowing or plowing thinking that they are making money when they aren't even covering their materials and fuel.

Honestly, most of these guys are part-timers who aren't relying on this industry (plowing) and the lawn/landscape industry to provide for their families and their employees.

I've taught a lot of high school kids over the years that there's more to cutting grass than charging "$1/minute" or whatever mentality. Any comments I make is to make someone think. There's a lot of hidden variables that guys don't "think" about in the beginning then they are panicking when they down either during the mowing season or plow season because they didn't "think" enough to save up for backup equipment because they weren't charging clients enough throughout the year.

So to sum it up I don't think a lot of guys are coming across as having egos. A lot of guys who have been in ANY industry for any length of time have to give a little eye roll or snicker at guys who think if they are charging $100 that they are pocketing $100. When it comes down to it if you need help you'll get help. If you want someone to hold your hand all the way there's not a lot of guys willing to do that.


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## 19350STX

The back alley beer money boys come out during dustings, you'll never see them in a blizzard bc they're hiding under the covers with thier dog


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## Mark Oomkes

jato said:


> And by lowballing we are basically talking about someone who is at least 30% below a sensible rate, right?


Negative...no real set answer to lowballing.

Could be some AC that undercuts you by $10 to get the job.

Could be a newbie that thinks a $25/time cut is big bucks.

Could be a huge company that uses mowing/plowing as a loss leader and then screws the customer on extras.

I had another example in mind, but I can't remember it.


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## WIPensFan

gcbailey said:


> I've got a dozen more years on the green side than I do on the white side


I like that (Green/White). I'm stealing that from now on.


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## Mark Oomkes

WIPensFan said:


> I like that (Green/White). I'm stealing that from now on.


Thought you were retired?


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## jonniesmooth

gcbailey said:


> I'm more than willing to teach anyone. I've got a dozen more years on the green side than I do on the white side. For years I subbed out all of my plowing on my turnkey accounts but my source wanted to retire so....
> 
> The only thing that aggravates me are people who think everyone makes bank and doesn't realize the difference between net and gross. True, if you price correct you should come out ahead but in my area at least there's a lot of "daddy money" from guys either mowing or plowing thinking that they are making money when they aren't even covering their materials and fuel.
> 
> Honestly, most of these guys are part-timers who aren't relying on this industry (plowing) and the lawn/landscape industry to provide for their families and their employees.
> 
> I've taught a lot of high school kids over the years that there's more to cutting grass than charging "$1/minute" or whatever mentality. Any comments I make is to make someone think. There's a lot of hidden variables that guys don't "think" about in the beginning then they are panicking when they down either during the mowing season or plow season because they didn't "think" enough to save up for backup equipment because they weren't charging clients enough throughout the year.
> 
> So to sum it up I don't think a lot of guys are coming across as having egos. A lot of guys who have been in ANY industry for any length of time have to give a little eye roll or snicker at guys who think if they are charging $100 that they are pocketing $100. When it comes down to it if you need help you'll get help. If you want someone to hold your hand all the way there's not a lot of guys willing to do that.


Long story,I'll try to keep it tight.
When I was a senior in HS.
Our FFA group took a trip to the BWCA ,one of the adult chaperones was a friend of my advisor who did lawn/snow service.
He had a nickname but I won't post it, as a professional courtesy. He would be easily identified. 
He was known about the area for owing money to EVERYONE,and never paying his bills.
Well, now he has a son in the industry. He's an ok guy,volunteer FF too.
But he runs his business just like hid dad taught him.
Has all kinds of fancy,new equipment.
One of their accounts is s strip mall owned by the owner of the Goodyear that is the anchor store of it.
He told me that XXXX owes him so much money for tires they will be plowing the lot for infinity and beyond for free.
It's a viscous cycle.
Well, a few years ago I saw they weren't running JD loaders anymore. They had Case.
Guess who's loaders got repo'ed?
But wait,there's more.
His brother went so far as to call the nsp servicing a local drug store, claiming to be the sub contractor with the plowing account. Telling them they had to back out of the contract and then getting the account for his brother.
It was in the local paper,it went to court.
Now, my wife works with a former bookkeeper for the next largest snow/ landscape contractor.
Shr told my wife it is SOP for them to not pay their bills,file chapter whatever bankruptcy and re structure under a different family members name.
Kind of hard to compete against that, Ethically .


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## Mudly

Owner/operator said:


> Speaking on behalf of a person who has not plowed at all. But has been researching for over a year...I think part of the problem is the guys complaining about it.....when new guys ask they get mostly smart ass or belittling comments, (who wants to hear that all the time)..then there is the figure out your overhead cost answer, but when he does his price is still too low...alI i can say is once I start making the big coins you guys make, I will strive to not have the ego and arrogance that seems to come with it. It seems to be the same with the whole green industry and hardscape.


Funny funny, this has a lot of truth to it. I left my ego alone in my early 20s for the most part (thats my ego speaking) and im not a fan of beating up someones hard work even if i feel it looks terrible. Pride in my work is what i pretend to live on. Im pretty sure my ego rears its ugly head more then i want. There is a lot to learn out there from the older generation, except from @Mark Oomkes his ego is exhausting to climb. Always falling off that mountain.


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## WIPensFan

Mark Oomkes said:


> Thought you were retired?


I am. But I'm all in on PS!! And Electric Jeeps and stealing peoples sayings…


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## Mark Oomkes

Mudly said:


> Funny funny, this has a lot of truth to it. I left my ego alone in my early 20s for the most part (thats my ego speaking) and im not a fan of beating up someones hard work even if i feel it looks terrible. Pride in my work is what i pretend to live on. Im pretty sure my ego rears its ugly head more then i want. There is a lot to learn out there from the older generation, except from @Mark Oomkes his ego is exhausting to climb. Always falling off that mountain.


Jealousy is ugly on you...


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## Mudly

Mark Oomkes said:


> Jealousy is ugly on you...


Green lights look good on you. Kinda flashy imo


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## Gus Mcgee

I used to do 100% of my snow removal in house. I find it makes more sense to subcontract out most of my snow removal now, because the vast majority of commercial accounts pay peanuts, my employee wages are through the roof, and I have never had much difficulty finding subs willing to work more cheaply than what I would pay my own employees to do the work.

I sub out about 80% of my snow removal. The remaining 20% are our most lucrative accounts that have zero tolerance for snow / ice and are willing to pay extra for premium service.

If snow removal wasn't tied into landscaping, for the most part, I would get out of the snow removal business.

I don't touch residential snow removal. I find it is a waste of time.


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## m_ice

Gus Mcgee said:


> If snow removal wasn't tied into landscaping, for the most part, I would get out of the snow removal business.


Me too


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## WIPensFan

Gus Mcgee said:


> I used to do 100% of my snow removal in house. I find it makes more sense to subcontract out most of my snow removal now, because the vast majority of commercial accounts pay peanuts, my employee wages are through the roof, and I have never had much difficulty finding subs willing to work more cheaply than what I would pay my own employees to do the work.
> 
> I sub out about 80% of my snow removal. The remaining 20% are our most lucrative accounts that have zero tolerance for snow / ice and are willing to pay extra for premium service.
> 
> If snow removal wasn't tied into landscaping, for the most part, I would get out of the snow removal business.
> 
> I don't touch residential snow removal. I find it is a waste of time.


Cool, whatever works for you.


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## m_ice

Gus Mcgee said:


> I don't touch residential snow removal. I find it is a waste of time.


I guess we are spoiled. We have 168 drives within 2 subdivisions next to each other. Less demanding, no salt, don't have to do until the end of the storm.


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## WIPensFan

m_ice said:


> I guess we are spoiled. We have 168 drives within 2 subdivisions next to each other. Less demanding, no salt, don't have to do until the end of the storm.


Just drives? Or walks and up by the garages and hand work stuff?


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## m_ice

WIPensFan said:


> Just drives? Or walks and up by the garages and hand work stuff?


Just drives


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## WIPensFan

m_ice said:


> Just drives


That's perfect!


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## theplowmeister

Gus Mcgee said:


> I used to do 100% of my snow removal in house. I find it makes more sense to subcontract out most of my snow removal now, because the vast majority of commercial accounts pay peanuts, my employee wages are through the roof, and I have never had much difficulty finding subs willing to work more cheaply than what I would pay my own employees to do the work.
> 
> I sub out about 80% of my snow removal. The remaining 20% are our most lucrative accounts that have zero tolerance for snow / ice and are willing to pay extra for premium service.
> 
> If snow removal wasn't tied into landscaping, for the most part, I would get out of the snow removal business.
> 
> I don't touch residential snow removal. I find it is a waste of time.


Hu what do you know (a saying not an enditement of you).

I do only residential I found (many many moons ago) that commercial dont pay. I bid on a commercial lot. I looked at it anf figured it was about 15 driveways worth of plowing. so I bid 10 times a driveway price (figured less travle time). The property Manager laughed at me. So I stick to Resis

I have an agreement with my insurance Co, I dont do commercial plowing and they dont charge me stupid amounts to insure me. I average 6 minutes/driveway, that includes travel between houses.

In 35 years Ive been stiffed 1 time, I hear too many stories about com accounts not paying BIG bucks owed to plowers.


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## Mark Oomkes

I've been stiffed by more residential than commercial customers. 

I do both and make money at both so maybe both of you are wrong.


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## Ajlawn1

theplowmeister said:


> I bid on a commercial lot. I looked at it anf figured it was about 15 driveways


And that's 14 less Karen's to deal with... Strictly commercial here on out...


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## Chineau

12 years pushing snow now when I bought my first machine one of the guys who had been at it for long time said to me every year you will see someone start up and figure they are rich with a hand full of cash, it is true.
what work for me is showing up and push the powder and I say it is working cause I have customers on my list 12 years now not all stick with you but for the most part those lowballs simply don't matter.
in the race to the bottom don't look for me to lace up.


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## WIPensFan

Ajlawn1 said:


> And that's 14 less Karen's to deal with... Strictly commercial here on out...


I never had problems with that on residential, but I do realize that was mostly before social media took off. Not entirely but I know it has gotten much worse over the past 10 yrs. People feel more powerful when they can cut you apart from behind the keyboards. Anyway, it is a lot less people to be accountable to. 1 vs 15. I think it's good for smaller to medium companies to have a mix of clients.


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## Chineau

Wipens, agree I take so many pre-paid at the start of season puts fuel money in the bank up front.
if it doesn't snow go fishing.


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## theplowmeister

Ajlawn1 said:


> And that's 14 less Karen's to deal with... Strictly commercial here on out...


I have no problem with Karan's or Mattha's or Dave's its AJ's that are a PITA


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## Chineau

some where I read, Train your customer or they will train you and not everyone is meant to be you customer.


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## SnowHampshire

theplowmeister said:


> Hu what do you know (a saying not an enditement of you).
> 
> I do only residential I found (many many moons ago) that commercial dont pay. I bid on a commercial lot. I looked at it anf figured it was about 15 driveways worth of plowing. so I bid 10 times a driveway price (figured less travle time). The property Manager laughed at me. So I stick to Resis
> 
> I have an agreement with my insurance Co, I dont do commercial plowing and they dont charge me stupid amounts to insure me. I average 6 minutes/driveway, that includes travel between houses.
> 
> In 35 years Ive been stiffed 1 time, I hear too many stories about com accounts not paying BIG bucks owed to plowers.


I'm assuming it took a few years to get to that point? I bet your route is tight as heck.


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## theplowmeister

I started plowing in 1986. It took me 3 years of plowing in 3 adjacent towns for me to figure out that there is no $ driving between houses. I picked 1 town, drove around, found neighborhoods and driveways I wanted to plow (no point in advertising to people that had no ware to push the snow). went to town hall got "List of persons" or "voter registration List" and sent the WIFE a letter explaining what I do. the next year I made more $ with less time plowing. (actually more time plowing less driving between houses). I have not advertised in 10 years. all word of mouth. The BEST advertising you will get!


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## SnowHampshire

theplowmeister said:


> I started plowing in 1986. It took me 3 years of plowing in 3 adjacent towns for me to figure out that there is no $ driving between houses. I picked 1 town, drove around, found neighborhoods and driveways I wanted to plow (no point in advertising to people that had no ware to push the snow). went to town hall got "List of persons" or "voter registration List" and sent the WIFE a letter explaining what I do. the next year I made more $ with less time plowing. (actually more time plowing less driving between houses). I have not advertised in 10 years. all word of mouth. The BEST advertising you will get!


 I've had this plastered in my mind since I read it in an older thread. Next year I'll be doing something like this. Thank you for sharing that it is invaluable for us new guys!


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## Mr.Markus

Everyone runs their business differently, I know of several that lowball to gain market share quickly. Keeping volume collections flowing money/cash flow can sustain the business or illusion thereof for a long time. Enough time to make others/veterans susceed their share. 
Owners build a book and sell to an unsuspecting newcomer that quickly learns the true value of the book... Its how its played, the original owner comes out wealthy, probably not Kennedy family wealth but enough to keep their lifestyle at which theyve become accustomed. Its been my experience that they are not genuinely nice people, they will use and step on everyone in their way to get what they want.


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## kg26

Rules to being successful. Number 1. Understanding everyone is not going to be your customer and bring okay with that.


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## Mark Oomkes

McDonald's is still in bizness and so is Ruth's Chris. 

There's high end restaurants and greasy spoons, all different clientele. Pick yours and make it happen.


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## gcbailey

Mark Oomkes said:


> McDonald's is still in bizness and so is Ruth's Chris.
> 
> There's high end restaurants and greasy spoons, all different clientele. Pick yours and make it happen.


Ever seen the faces of people when you take your kids happy meal into Ruth's Chris?


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## dlcs

Ajlawn1 said:


> Got two of these yesterday.... The other said backflow leaking all over the place making an ice rink... Im guessing in the long run these businesses are paying so much more then they really need to... LMAO...
> 
> View attachment 225625


Dividiots are a joke. I get those "opportunities" all the time. They have destroyed walgreens.


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## Kvston

Yeah they are low ballers for sure. I signed up with the program a while back but have yet to get a reasonable bid approved. Now I just don’t bid.


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## SnowHampshire

Re


Mark Oomkes said:


> Negative...no real set answer to lowballing.
> 
> Could be some AC that undercuts you by $10 to get the job.
> 
> Could be a newbie that thinks a $25/time cut is big bucks.
> 
> Could be a huge company that uses mowing/plowing as a loss leader and then screws the customer on extras.
> 
> I had another example in mind, but I can't remember it.


Really? Someone's price is $10 less than yours and they are an undercutting lowballer?


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## Mark Oomkes

SnowHampshire said:


> Re
> 
> Really? Someone's price is $10 less than yours and they are an undercutting lowballer?


If that's the reason they undercut me, yes.


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## Chineau

SnowHampshire said:


> Re
> 
> Really? Someone's price is $10 less than yours and they are an undercutting lowballer?


I would invite you to consider are all things equal?
is lowball running a shop paying rent/mortgage, insurance, lights, workers comp oh and wages hmm yes fuel couple k per month or is it park in the driveway and cut price by short circuit any old which way for snow coin?
it has taken a few years to learn but I will tell you this how you position in your market will make a huge difference.


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## Kvston

Just got a flurry of calls this week. All from people looking for snow services. A few are new people to the area-just purchased a home.

Besides the normal "Looking for a price" people there was an interesting message from a business owner. His current one truck warrior [who travels 90 minutes one was in good weather to get there!?] can't keep his truck out of the shop.

Owner called us because he's been driving by our operations base, saw the nice new fleet and decided his vacation rental business needs reliable service.

No, the low baller is not ruining things for us. Those guys are helping us. The lack of backup equipment, the not calling people back, the no communication when something goes wrong, the sloppy service…those are all making my point for me. Those guys are selling my business for me!

**To be fair I was also a one truck warrior when I started with old, beat equipment. I just made sure to make friends with other companies so I had a backup [paid them for my work], communicate with my clients, do very clean work and be up front with them when issues arose.


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## Chineau

Kvston said:


> Just got a flurry of calls this week. All from people looking for snow services. A few are new people to the area-just purchased a home.
> 
> Besides the normal "Looking for a price" people there was an interesting message from a business owner. His current one truck warrior [who travels 90 minutes one was in good weather to get there!?] can't keep his truck out of the shop.
> 
> Owner called us because he's been driving by our operations base, saw the nice new fleet and decided his vacation rental business needs reliable service.
> 
> No, the low baller is not ruining things for us. Those guys are helping us. The lack of backup equipment, the not calling people back, the no communication when something goes wrong, the sloppy service…those are all making my point for me. Those guys are selling my business for me!
> 
> **To be fair I was also a one truck warrior when I started with old, beat equipment. I just made sure to make friends with other companies so I had a backup [paid them for my work], communicate with my clients, do very clean work and be up front with them when issues arose.


dare I say bootstrap!
good for you.


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