# Skid size, time savings?



## SnowMatic (Sep 21, 2014)

On average how much time savings is there 'plowing' if you go from a S590/242D with a 8ft pusher vs if you jumped up a size in a skid to a S650/262D and 10ft pusher. 
The current lot/drive takes approx 6hr avg with a truck/vblade, avg storm. 
And lets assume a proficient operator with the skid, Not newbie against a seasoned operator.

Thanks


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

SnowMatic;1854837 said:


> On average how much time savings is there 'plowing' if you go from a S590/242D with a 8ft pusher vs if you jumped up a size in a skid to a S650/262D and 10ft pusher.
> The current lot/drive takes approx 6hr avg with a truck/vblade, avg storm.
> And lets assume a proficient operator with the skid, Not newbie against a seasoned operator.
> 
> Thanks


12.5% faster,save about 45 minutes


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## TKLAWN (Jan 20, 2008)

Put a set of snow tires on the smaller machine and it will push as much as the larger one. Cheaper machine, less fuel = more profit JMO.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

TKLAWN;1854884 said:


> Put a set of snow tires on the smaller machine and it will push as much as the larger one. Cheaper machine, less fuel = more profit JMO.


I agree!!!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

If the lot takes 6hrs on average you should get the bigger machine with the bigger pusher and snow tires. Maybe even bigger machine than S650/262D.


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## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

Its all going to depend on what the parameters of the lot are. If it is small narrow spaces such as driveways, or between islands in a smaller lot, then you won't see much advantage. 

If on the other hand, you are making long pushes (or have bigger open spaces) and are filling up the pusher box each time, then you will be gaining roughly 20% productivity plus the theoretical reduced (or increased) slippage factor if the box is too big (or too small) for the machine. Lots of variables. 

Of course we are going to assume that both machines are specd with 2 speed the same (not sure if the 590 has the same top end speed as the 650 in high speed mode).


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

edgeair;1855716 said:


> Its all going to depend on what the parameters of the lot are. If it is small narrow spaces such as driveways, or between islands in a smaller lot, then you won't see much advantage.
> 
> If on the other hand, you are making long pushes (or have bigger open spaces) and are filling up the pusher box each time, then you will be gaining roughly 20% productivity plus the theoretical reduced (or increased) slippage factor if the box is too big (or too small) for the machine. Lots of variables.
> 
> Of course we are going to assume that both machines are specd with 2 speed the same (not sure if the 590 has the same top end speed as the 650 in high speed mode).


I agree with you.

I assumed if he was asking about possibly a 10ft pusher then that size would not be a limiting factor. I should never assume on this site as many times people leave out vital information when they ask the original questions.

To the OP and others, when asking advice and questions, be as detailed as possible in the first post. Thanks.


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## SnowMatic (Sep 21, 2014)

TKLAWN;1854884 said:


> Put a set of snow tires on the smaller machine and it will push as much as the larger one. Cheaper machine, less fuel = more profit JMO.


Ok so this makes sense to me to a degree.
Save money getting a smaller machine, may use less fuel and larger machine is going to burn more fuel. Maybe??

The 242Cat is comparable to a BC S590 in lift (Cat 50lbs more) the Cat242 has 8 more HP, and Cat machine weighs 245lbs more. 
The 262Cat is comparable to a BC S650 in lift, (Cat 10lbs more) the Cat262 has the same HP as the Cat242 & BC650, the BC650 weighs 316lbs more than Cat 262.

So in the case of the 590 (less hp/less weight), wouldnt it use more fuel because it may have to work harder to push whats getting collected in a pushbox.
vs say the 242 which has a bit more hp/weight. 
and in regards to the 262 its the same hp as the 242, but alot more weight so it may use more fuel based on its weight, wouldnt it push a 8ft pushbox better than the 590/242. 
Now if I put a 10ft pushbox on the front of the 650 or 262 then I increase the amount of snow I can push at one time. But I may use more fuel doing so because its a bigger machine. and should I assume that like the 590/242 with a 8ft pusher, your going to come to a point where the 10ft pusher is maybe too much for the 262 or 650? and at that point the machine is going to have to work harder to push the 10ft box and burn more fuel.

Again the 242/262/650 are all rated 74hp but machine weight varies. 
the 590 is 66hp

Is a 262 or 650 a waste of extra money when it may not push a 10ft pushbox any better than a 590 or 242 with a 8ft pushbox.
Is a 262 or 650 a waste of extra money when you may only put a 8ft pushbox on the front?



edgeair;1855716 said:


> Its all going to depend on what the parameters of the lot are. If it is small narrow spaces such as driveways, or between islands in a smaller lot, then you won't see much advantage.
> 
> If on the other hand, you are making long pushes (or have bigger open spaces) and are filling up the pusher box each time, then you will be gaining roughly 20% productivity plus the theoretical reduced (or increased) slippage factor if the box is too big (or too small) for the machine. Lots of variables.
> 
> Of course we are going to assume that both machines are specd with 2 speed the same (not sure if the 590 has the same top end speed as the 650 in high speed mode).


Im doing 30ft wide drives, on some drives there are bldgs on both sides of the drives which the snow has to go out one end or the other of the drive. and other bldgs where the majority of the snow is just getting pushed to the end of the drive and piled up out of the way.
Longest push's would be a little over 400ft. 
The way it is now with a pickup all snow gets pushed to the end of the drives, very little (except last winter) gets windrowed to the outside of any of the outside drives. All these drives are stoned.
also have a 'lot' (open space) that gets done too. which is ashpalt (27,000 sqft)

Yes, both machines specd with 2 speed.
Top speed 590 11.0 vs 242 11.5
Top speed 650 12.3 vs 262 11.0



WIPensFan;1855796 said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> I assumed if he was asking about possibly a 10ft pusher then that size would not be a limiting factor. I should never assume on this site as many times people leave out vital information when they ask the original questions.
> 
> To the OP and others, when asking advice and questions, be as detailed as possible in the first post. Thanks.


Im lost by your post, I did say 10ft with a larger machine in my first post....?


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

You're over thinking it. Just stick with what you have


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## Drakeslayer (Feb 11, 2011)

Our 650 with 22.5" snow tires will go 17-18 MPH. So in big spaces the fuel savings would be less than labor on most routes. Go with larger machine and containment box.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I agreed with Edgeair about wanting to know details about what you're plowing. Basically the info you gave the second time around, but should have started off with
Im doing 30ft wide drives, on some drives there are bldgs on both sides of the drives which the snow has to go out one end or the other of the drive. and other bldgs where the majority of the snow is just getting pushed to the end of the drive and piled up out of the way.
Longest push's would be a little over 400ft. 
The way it is now with a pickup all snow gets pushed to the end of the drives, very little (except last winter) gets windrowed to the outside of any of the outside drives. All these drives are stoned.
also have a 'lot' (open space) that gets done too. which is ashpalt (27,000 sqft)

This info should be a big determining factor in skid size, pusher size and time savings. You want to save time?? Get the biggest skid you can afford and haul, and put the biggest pusher it will handle on it. Again, details...are you keeping it on site? Or hauling it to the site each event? Big skids and big pushers are not easy to trailer around.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

What about a Bobcat S630? I believe the weight of the machine is between a Cat 242 and 262. The main difference between the Bobcat S630 and S650 is that the S650 is vertical lift path where the S630 is radial, which means the S650 will lift higher. Really, this is only a benefit if you're loading trucks. The price is a few grand difference.


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

Also wanted to add.......I have had bad luck with pushers. I've tried Pro-Tech and wasn't happy with them. I found they didn't scrape well enough, they did have the steel cutting edges. This year I'm trying the Kage system.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

If something was taking me that long to do I would, A)get a much larger machine or B) just put a truck in there for some support. IMO, nothing should take 6 hours to plow to complete the job.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Brad3403;1856465 said:


> What about a Bobcat S630?


This is what I had suggested to the OP at one time, and still think this would be the way to go for him...He could find a set of snow tires/rims for about $1000 & a brand new 10ft boss pusher for around $2500.



Drakeslayer;1856317 said:


> Our 650 with 22.5" snow tires will go *17-18 MPH.* So in big spaces the fuel savings would be less than labor on most routes. Go with larger machine and containment box.


You running NOS?


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## SnowMatic (Sep 21, 2014)

Brad3403;1856465 said:


> What about a Bobcat S630? I believe the weight of the machine is between a Cat 242 and 262. The main difference between the Bobcat S630 and S650 is that the S650 is vertical lift path where the S630 is radial, which means the S650 will lift higher. Really, this is only a benefit if you're loading trucks. The price is a few grand difference.


yeah 630 comes in at 7707lbs and a 246 comes in at 7424lbs both 74hp machines. 
I was under the impression that a vertical lift was the way to go for having your bucket the furthest away from the machine when dumping and for stacking the highest. 
wouldnt I want a skid that will push and dump material the furthest & highest away from the skid?



Brian Young;1856472 said:


> If something was taking me that long to do I would, A)get a much larger machine or B) just put a truck in there for some support. IMO, nothing should take 6 hours to plow to complete the job.


I agree. 
Part of the problem is I can only plow one way with the truck, and doing a lot of jockey around to line up the truck to run along bldgs.
Had truck and a rental skid last year during a major storm and it still took us 7 hrs to complete using both.

When the truck comes to the end of it useful days, The skid will have to replace what the truck is doing. But I dont want to spend 6 hrs plowing and I was hoping that the skid would be quicker and save some time plowing



snocrete;1856774 said:


> This is what I had suggested to the OP at one time, and still think this would be the way to go for him...He could find a set of snow tires/rims for about $1000 & a brand new 10ft boss pusher for around $2500.


Yeah appreciate all the help snocrete. This may come easier for you guys who have used this equipment for plowing. Im a newbie to the skids so just trying to get things figured out.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

SnowMatic;1854837 said:


> On average how much time savings is there 'plowing' if you go from a S590/242D with a 8ft pusher vs if you jumped up a size in a skid to a S650/262D and 10ft pusher.
> The current lot/drive takes approx 6hr avg with a truck/vblade, avg storm.
> And lets assume a proficient operator with the skid, Not newbie against a seasoned operator.
> 
> Thanks


If the lot takes 6hrs with a Truck with a V

Depends how the lot is setup if you can pile snow at both ends

Even a 8ft would out push the V

How many acres is the lot

If I guess a Skid with a 8ft plow you might knock off maybe 1 or 2 hrs That depends on where you can pile the snow
With 10ft plow you might knock off 2-2.5 hrs hrs

I have a lot that I can pile on both ends But always push one way with the Truck V and when I started run Skid The time went from 30mins to 15mins
Truck V is a 9.6 w/wings and my Skid plow is a 7.6 Box


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

I have a a 10ft. Snow pusher and use it with an S250, do not consider a machine with less than 70h.p. More ponies more better.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Drakeslayer;1856317 said:


> Our 650 with 22.5" snow tires will go 17-18 MPH. So in big spaces the fuel savings would be less than labor on most routes. Go with larger machine and containment box.


That's next thing I want to do to my Skid Since I run mine down the road instead of hauling it


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## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

I wouldn't want to hit a bump in my s650 while going 16mph! Especially on 22.5's!!


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

rob_cook2001;1857247 said:


> I wouldn't want to hit a bump in my s650 while going 16mph! Especially on 22.5's!!


My Gehl has Hydro-Glide The ride at 14-15 mph is nice You don't feel bumps With 22.5 on I figure I could hit 20 mph going down the road


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Antlerart06;1857760 said:


> My Gehl has Hydro-Glide The ride at 14-15 mph is nice You don't feel bumps With 22.5 on I figure I could hit 20 mph going down the road


You wont be going anywhere near 20. I don't believe your hitting 14-15 either. :waving:


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Antlerart06;1857760 said:


> My Gehl has Hydro-Glide The ride at 14-15 mph is nice You don't feel bumps With 22.5 on* I figure I could hit 20 mph *going down the road


Just out of curiosity, how did you "figure" that?


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## snowman55 (Nov 20, 2007)

He might be I got 20 mph out of my 650


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

snowman55;1857864 said:


> He might be I got 20 mph out of my 650


How? If all you're doing is equipping it with a tire that is a couple inches taller, you will not gain 6.7mph on a S650.

Maybe your "GPS app" is way off..?


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

snocrete;1857823 said:


> You wont be going anywhere near 20. I don't believe your hitting 14-15 either. :waving:


All I can say is This winter when I run it I try take pic of the GPS when Im in the skid


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Antlerart06;1857909 said:


> All I can say is This winter when I run it I try take pic of the GPS when Im in the skid


Why don't you run a vehicle next to it and video the speedometer. Wouldn't that give a better indication of speed? IDK, I'm just wondering.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Antlerart06;1857909 said:


> All I can say is This winter when I run it I try take pic of the GPS when Im in the skid


No need. I already know.



WIPensFan;1857911 said:


> Why don't you run a vehicle next to it and video the speedometer. Wouldn't that give a better indication of speed? IDK, I'm just wondering.


No, because that could be skewed, so he doesn't look like a maroon.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Antlerart06;1857760 said:


> My Gehl has Hydro-Glide The ride at 14-15 mph is nice You don't feel bumps With 22.5 on I figure I could hit 20 mph going down the road





snocrete;1857824 said:


> Just out of curiosity, how did you "figure" that?


Still curious how you "figured" that????


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

12MPH is more than enough for me in a skid. I can't imagine 20 if that's even possible. I'd hate to see the aftermath if you tried to turn at that speed.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

snocrete;1857922 said:


> No need. I already know.
> 
> No, because that could be skewed, so he doesn't look like a maroon.


:laughing:


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## snowman55 (Nov 20, 2007)

Spooky fast and a little more than added tires


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

snowman55;1858043 said:


> Spooky fast and a little more than added tires


So what it is it? PM me if you'd like....I know of 1 possibility it could be, but I'm having a hard time seeing it gain THAT much.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

WIPensFan;1857911 said:


> Why don't you run a vehicle next to it and video the speedometer. Wouldn't that give a better indication of speed? IDK, I'm just wondering.


I could do that But Last year I had a GPS in there So my skid driver knew the route. He even told me how fast it goes I didn't believe it till I ran it. I trust the GPS 
I cant check right now it has tracks on and not recommended to run in 2nd I'm still doing dirt work with it


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

snocrete;1857922 said:


> No need. I already know.
> 
> No, because that could be skewed, so he doesn't look like a maroon.


:waving:


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Antlerart06;1858226 said:


> I could do that But Last year I had a GPS in there So my skid driver knew the route. He even told me how fast it goes I didn't believe it till I ran it. I trust the GPS
> I cant check right now it has tracks on and not recommended to run in 2nd I'm still doing dirt work with it


Maybe sometime this winter, if you think about it.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

WIPensFan;1858235 said:


> Maybe sometime this winter, if you think about it.


Yes I'll do it before the snow comes once I pull the tracks off and that might real soon talking rain all next week Starts raining with cool temps things wont dry out


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Antlerart06;1857760 said:


> My Gehl has Hydro-Glide The ride at 14-15 mph is nice You don't feel bumps With 22.5 on *I figure I could hit 20 mph *going down the road





snocrete;1857824 said:


> Just out of curiosity, how did you "figure" that?





snocrete;1857960 said:


> Still curious how you "figured" that????


So you gonna tell us how you "figured" that? Or are you just full of poop?


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

snocrete;1858325 said:


> So you gonna tell us how you "figured" that? Or are you just full of poop?


Nope not full poop just drop that Your only one asking I see you must not know 
taller the tires are higher it gears it Plain and simple figure If I went with 22.5 rims I wont know till I run it to see if it (((((could)))) hit 20 might only gain 2-3 mph that's better then nothing

Then again it might gear to high to plow in 2nd But with the taller tires in First, it will be faster
Few years back I seen a guy put taller tires on his Skid that was only 1 speed and he gained speed

Its the same figuring when I went from 33'' to 44'' tires on rockcrawler and I had to lower the gear ratio Since the taller tires made it geared higher made it a dog


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## TKLAWN (Jan 20, 2008)

snowman55;1858043 said:


> Spooky fast and a little more than added tires


Shall we say "flash"???


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

"Figure" = to compute or calculate


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## agurdo17 (Sep 15, 2011)

even 15mph is cookin in a skid. dont hit anything with a push box at that speed.....


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

snocrete;1858349 said:


> "Figure" = to compute or calculate


 don't forget most people can figure in there head or pen and paper
So only way you can figure is by using a computer or calculator


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

agurdo17;1858352 said:


> even 15mph is cookin in a skid. dont hit anything with a push box at that speed.....


Never do plow at top speed I want more speed for between jobs I don't haul mine its route is 2 miles long it makes a big circle from the shop I have one Complex I like using the skid at but from my Shop its about 15-20 min drive in the skid depending on night or day
I be lucky plow 20 mph in a truck


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Antlerart06;1858356 said:


> don't forget most people can figure in there head or pen and paper


So whats your excuse?

I gave you the definition of "figure", because you obviously didn't know it.


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## mike ward (Nov 29, 2008)

Back to the OP! What is the size of the lot? What sf per hour are you achieving per normal snow...What is a normal snow for you. I am running a 12 Artic with a Cat 242 but am mostly pushing 1-3" of snow per push.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

snocrete;1858571 said:


> So whats your excuse?
> 
> I gave you the definition of "figure", because you obviously didn't know it.


You gave me your definition of figure not the true definition of the word Look it up then you will know what it really means So figure that out


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## gc3 (Dec 6, 2007)

mike ward;1858614 said:


> Back to the OP! What is the size of the lot? What sf per hour are you achieving per normal snow...What is a normal snow for you. I am running a 12 Artic with a Cat 242 but am mostly pushing 1-3" of snow per push.


Just curious, anything more than 3 inches of snow how's your 242 handle that Arctic?


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## SnowMatic (Sep 21, 2014)

Brad3403;1856465 said:


> What about a Bobcat S630? I believe the weight of the machine is between a Cat 242 and 262. The main difference between the Bobcat S630 and S650 is that the S650 is vertical lift path where the S630 is radial, which means the S650 will lift higher. Really, this is only a benefit if you're loading trucks. The price is a few grand difference.


I was under the impression that a vertical lift was the way to go for having your bucket the furthest away from the machine when dumping and for stacking the highest. 
wouldn't I want a skid that will push and dump material the furthest & highest away from the skid?

Bobcat 630 reach at max lift and dump 21.4 Radial
Bobcat 650 reach at max lift and dump 31.5 Vertical
Cat 246 reach at max lift and dump 23.6 Radial
Cat 242 reach at max lift and dump 21.7 Vertical

Bobcat 630 clearance at max lift and dump 93.2 Rad
Bobcat 650 clearance at max lift and dump 96.3 Vert
Cat 246 clearance at max lift and dump 97.1 Rad
Cat 242 clearance at max lift and dump 90.0 Vert

Bobcat 630 Bucket Pin Height at Max Lift 121 Rad
Bobcat 650 Bucket Pin Height at Max Lift 124 Vert
Cat 246 Bucket Pin Height at Max Lift 124.2 Rad
Cat 242 Bucket Pin Height at Max Lift 121.1 Vert

Ok so for the cat measurements the 246 Radial lift actually has higher numbers than the cat vertical machine. opposite of the bobcat... Why?



mike ward;1858614 said:


> Back to the OP! What is the size of the lot? What sf per hour are you achieving per normal snow...What is a normal snow for you. I am running a 12 Artic with a Cat 242 but am mostly pushing 1-3" of snow per push.


Lot is around 27,500 sqft (open lot no islands - 'L' shaped - with 2 in/out drives)
All other areas are drives which total around 115,000
and additional drives around 9,000
SF per hour, never figured it before...but I guess 151,500/6=25,250 sf per hour. W pickup/vblade.



gc3;1859302 said:


> Just curious, anything more than 3 inches of snow how's your 242 handle that Arctic?


Curious too !!


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## gc3 (Dec 6, 2007)

How about a S850, it says it lifts 12 feet.


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## pieperlc (Jan 4, 2005)

To answer your question about the cat machines vertical vs radial. I believe the 246 is a larger framed machine than the 242, thus the better numbers.



SnowMatic;1859828 said:


> I was under the impression that a vertical lift was the way to go for having your bucket the furthest away from the machine when dumping and for stacking the highest.
> wouldn't I want a skid that will push and dump material the furthest & highest away from the skid?
> 
> Bobcat 630 reach at max lift and dump 21.4 Radial
> ...


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## pieperlc (Jan 4, 2005)

A little off topic, but I "figured" what the speed increase would be with the 22.5" tires from Westside tire on a single speed Cat 252b. I came up with .7 mph increase, so from 6.9 to 7.6 mph. Does that number seem plausible? I don't know if that number is right, just what my calculations told me.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

pieperlc;1864542 said:


> A little off topic, but I "figured" what the speed increase would be with the 22.5" tires from Westside tire on a single speed Cat 252b. I came up with .7 mph increase, so from 6.9 to 7.6 mph. Does that number seem plausible? I don't know if that number is right, just what my calculations told me.


:laughing:......yes, your probably very close to what your increase will be. I did some "figuring" on what it would take to get a 5mph increase on our skids, and I'm not sure that size tire will fit...


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