# Commercial properties



## Fd4x4 (Jul 11, 2018)

how does every one reach out to propriety management companies and propoerty owners? I find it’s the hardest thing to do. Any secrets or suggestions?


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Fd4x4 said:


> how does every one reach out to propriety management companies and propoerty owners? I find it's the hardest thing to do. Any secrets or suggestions?


Direct mailings can work wonders.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

#1 You're 1-6 months late if you want to get work this winter.
#2 Property managers and property owners (commercial, HOA, condo) are going to pitch direct mailers. .


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Fd4x4 said:


> how does every one reach out to propriety management companies and propoerty owners? I find it's the hardest thing to do. Any secrets or suggestions?


Usually they call us because they've seen us on another property and liked our work. I've tried cold calling before but it's not been effective.

OP some advice: don't take advice from someone that doesn't nor never has plowed commercially in regards to obtaining commercial accounts.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> OP some advice: don't take advice from someone that doesn't nor never has plowed commercially in regards to obtaining commercial accounts.


I was considering saying this.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Usually they call us because they've seen us on another property and liked our work. I've tried cold calling before but it's not been effective.
> 
> OP some advice: don't take advice from someone that doesn't nor never has plowed commercially in regards to obtaining commercial accounts.


bossplow2010: Even if I never plowed a single lot parking which I have... i've Got probably more experience marketing than you have using direct mail.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> #1 You're 1-6 months late if you want to get work this winter.
> #2 Property managers and property owners (commercial, HOA, condo) are going to pitch direct mailers. .


I got calls two years after I stopped my original plowing services... from commercial clients. So, I disagree. And in my others services for my business i've generate about 90% of my Growth in the last 4-5 years with direct mailings.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

either ignore each other or I will be forced to give some a break from the site...I've given more than enough chances for all of you, so I would suggest doing it now


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Can direct marketing work for FD4x4 ? Direct mail hits your target audience directly and you get great bang for your buck. Now, is it a panacea? No. But, odds are you couple it with a nice website and you will get people to call you. I send out flyers every quarter to about 5,500 potential clients and we get about literally 500 calls each time. And people do save them. So, it can be costly but also effective.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Best thing to do is physically walk into the property management company’s office if they are local. If not, walk into the rental office at the property site. If there is no onsite rental office, look on the internet for the site’s rental contact email and send them a unique email (versus a blanket generic email).


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## Fd4x4 (Jul 11, 2018)

Thanks all. I’ve been highly discourage my mailers because I did it two years in a row and never got anything in return. But I’ve also never sent out more then 200. I try to stick in certain areas and specific buildings. Maybe I’m being to picky? And yes I know I’m late this year. But usually I get contracts very late. ( and no it’s not a last resort or cheap price thing) but hey it’s better late then never right!


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## Fd4x4 (Jul 11, 2018)

ConnorExum said:


> Can direct marketing work for FD4x4 ? Direct mail hits your target audience directly and you get great bang for your buck. Now, is it a panacea? No. But, odds are you couple it with a nice website and you will get people to call you. I send out flyers every quarter to about 5,500 potential clients and we get about literally 500 calls each time. And people do save them. So, it can be costly but also effective.


When you do direct bulk mail like that I'm going to guess you hire and outside service? I usually mail nice post cards or large magnets and safety letter about cold safety and how to prevent fires just as an extra. Not sure if I should continue with it or it's nust a waste.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ConnorExum said:


> I send out flyers every quarter to about 5,500 potential clients and we get about literally 500 calls each time.


And how many are converted into actual jobs?


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> And how many are converted into actual jobs?


My biggest problem is not converting them into clients. My biggest problem is quality additional help. I could easily add 100-200 clients per year between all of services but i just cannot keep up with help.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Fd4x4 said:


> When you do direct bulk mail like that I'm going to guess you hire and outside service? I usually mail nice post cards or large magnets and safety letter about cold safety and how to prevent fires just as an extra. Not sure if I should continue with it or it's nust a waste.


I use mailing house and send a four page folding flyer.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ConnorExum said:


> My biggest problem is not converting them into clients. My biggest problem is quality employ issues. I could easily add 100-200 clients per year between all of services but i just cannot keep up with help.


So you're throwing money away....

4% at 200. But in reality, you don't know, you're guessing.

And you didn't answer the question. What is the average number you convert into actual paying customers out of 5,000 mailings?

The other thing here is, some of the property managers live in a different town, county or state. How do you know who to send those fliers too?

How large of an area are you sending those mailers to?

The OP is asking about snowplowing, he can't send mailers for snowplowing services in a 50 mile radius. I'm not so sure you can compare sucking out grease traps to plowing due to the time sensitivity of the service required. OR whatever it is you "do".


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So you're throwing money away....
> 
> 4% at 200. But in reality, you don't know, you're guessing.
> 
> ...


 Right now I am adding 50-75 clients per year. These range from chain stores, hospitals, colleges, etc in 150 mile radius. I've actually stopped advertising because I cannot support the interest. Also my services range from exhaust system installations to waste oil collection. We added 4 new employees and did over a 10 complete exhaust installs in the spring and summer...

Actually, with a little research he can target property owners anywhere he wants. I have been hitting Hannaford and Stop N Shop's hard. Not to mention property managers of malls. I've had excellent success with them lately.

I find it works for me. Do you have to do your home work? Yes. I find it is worth it.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

Mark is so right. Due to the time sensitivity of honoring snow plow commitments no one would really be able to effectively do anything in a 50 mile radius of home base. So mailing flyers or anything else for that matter to potential customers that far away would be a big waste of time. The OP wanted advice on finding snow plowing customers not on grease or oil collecting. If you were in the snow plowing business perhaps you would understand.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

wishfull said:


> Mark is so right. Due to the time sensitivity of honoring snow plow commitments no one would really be able to effectively do anything in a 50 mile radius of home base. So mailing flyers or anything else for that matter to potential customers that far away would be a big waste of time. The OP wanted advice on finding snow plowing customers not on grease or oil collecting. If you were in the snow plowing business perhaps you would understand.


Actually, I used flyers and direct mail to build a snowplowing service for our company in the past. I closed it down when it stopped being profitable. However, I plan on doing it again and this time focusing only on large lots and I will use our direct mail marketing methods.


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## mnlawns (Sep 19, 2018)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Usually they call us because they've seen us on another property and liked our work. I've tried cold calling before but it's not been effective.
> 
> OP some advice: don't take advice from someone that doesn't nor never has plowed commercially in regards to obtaining commercial accounts.


cold calling has worked pretty good for me, i called 10-15 property mgmt. companies, with a specific property they manage in mind, one of them asked for a bid, which i still need to send over, and another added us to a their bid list, so when the bunch they manage go up to bid, we should get a call/email


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Fd4x4 said:


> how does every one reach out to propriety management companies and propoerty owners? I find it's the hardest thing to do. Any secrets or suggestions?


To get work at a property management company , its best to go there in person like previous post mentioned. You need to prove that you have experience, decent equipment, insurance and list of references. If they decide to take bids from you dont bid every property they have. Start small. Make sure whatever youre bidding on you can handle.

I work with local management companies and not regional or national. My experience with the latter was terrible.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

We have been Accredited BBB members for years and we get an awful lot of our work because of that. Our slate is pretty much kept filled at all times so we get to choose which jobs we would like to do rather than taking on a job we really don't want just because we have an opening. We will do some door knocking sometimes when we get wind that a property may have changed managers.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ConnorExum said:


> in 150 mile radius.


Which is completely unreasonable for snow and ice management.

So it's unlikey the OP would be able to find that many customers to mail to.



ConnorExum said:


> Also my services range from exhaust system installations to waste oil collection.


Very infrequent services and not time sensitive. Again, it's like comparing apples and Pluto.

Before providing advice, you really need to ask yourself if it applies to the question being asked. You have a really bad habit of providing answers that are completely unrealistic at best. If I say what they are at worst, my post will be deleted.

Hence...my posts of "Pluto".


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## Fd4x4 (Jul 11, 2018)

Has any one ev used Angie’s list of any service like that and has success with it in regards to my OP.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Which is completely unreasonable for snow and ice management.
> 
> So it's unlikey the OP would be able to find that many customers to mail to.
> 
> ...


This thread is a textbook case for adding a "dislike" button along with the "like" button


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Which is completely unreasonable for snow and ice management.
> 
> So it's unlikey the OP would be able to find that many customers to mail to.
> 
> ...


The beauty of Direct Mailing is you don't have to pick a 150 mile radius for all of your target audience. I chose a 150 mile radius because of several factors : no need for extensive logs in our trucks, time of travel less than 4 hours each way, and customer density in the area. At no time did I suggest to this person use my model of marketing. Because my model of marketing for my services has been thoroughly tested and achieves amazing results for my specific goals. I used my model as only an example of what can be achieved with direct mailing.

Now, when I was building up my snow business last time-- I kept my radius for the first year at 25-30 miles from my location. I hit the area hard with flyers to all the key areas I felt were good potential customers. I hit the strip malls that were independently owned. I hit all the restaurants in the region that were clients or not. And I did the couple of big accounts a few storage areas and so on and the biggest physical place we had last time was lumber yard. We only had 35 mile radius by the last year and when I really had a problem finding dependable help and keeping the profits up mostly because we had poor snow falls for awhile.

Nothing, I've said is unrealistic at all. You have a bad habit of intentionally taking things out of context and pretending that I've said x will work when merely I've used x as example of how an ideal system maybe modeled.

Is direct mailing hard to do? No. It does require a lot of strategy and research to get it to work well. And that makes problems for some. So, I've been hitting Hannafords with cards for 6 months and I got a hit finally a month ago. But I didn't send to the local stores I sent to Maine because I found out the location of their corporate offices dealing with services like this. Now, I'm going to bid on an insane number of stores for a wide variety of services in my area.

Will it take him time and effort yes? Should he look into it? Yes, researching the option is smart. Could the original poster find that perhaps his advertising budget doesn't work with direct mailing or that his target audience in the area aren't compatible with it. Sure. But, you people are using anecdotal evidence to say flat out it cannot work. And none of us can say it will or won't work. Because we don't have the data to back that up. He asked for a potential method of contacting clients-- I gave him one.

You people immediately claimed it wouldn't work. I beg to differ on this because I have both first hand knowledge and a firm background in understanding marketing. How to make it work for him I cannot say since I have no Idea about his market demographics or his target audiences.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ConnorExum said:


> The beauty of Direct Mailing is you don't have to pick a 150 mile radius for all of your target audience. I chose a 150 mile radius because of several factors : no need for extensive logs in our trucks, time of travel less than 4 hours each way, and customer density in the area. At no time did I suggest to this person use my model of marketing. Because my model of marketing for my services has been thoroughly tested and achieves amazing results for my specific goals. I used my model as only an example of what can be achieved with direct mailing.
> 
> Now, when I was building up my snow business last time-- I kept my radius for the first year at 25-30 miles from my location. I hit the area hard with flyers to all the key areas I felt were good potential customers. I hit the strip malls that were independently owned. I hit all the restaurants in the region that were clients or not. And I did the couple of big accounts a few storage areas and so on and the biggest physical place we had last time was lumber yard. We only had 35 mile radius by the last year and when I really had a problem finding dependable help and keeping the profits up mostly because we had poor snow falls for awhile.
> 
> ...


SureKWhatever...

BTW, if it worked so well while you were building your "plowing" division, why was it unprofitable and you stopped providing that service?


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> SureKWhatever...
> 
> BTW, if it worked so well while you were building your "plowing" division, why was it unprofitable and you stopped providing that service?


Do you teach a masters level class in Snowflakology ? You like to belittle and berate people but when you get hit back you play the victim.

I told everyone why lack of snow and lack decent employees cut into the profitability at the time. People wanted per event instead of contracts and to me it didn't make much sense to do event plowing because it was a hassle with them trying to low ball me all the time. So couple that problem with fact I targeted smaller restaurants and larger facilities- a mistake I will not make this time I saw a drop in profitability that lead me to go into other avenues where I could do higher profitable work.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> SureKWhatever...
> 
> BTW, if it worked so well while you were building your "plowing" division, why was it unprofitable and you stopped providing that service?





ConnorExum said:


> Do you teach a masters level class in Snowflakology ? You like to belittle and berate people but when you get hit back you play the victim.
> 
> I told everyone why lack of snow and lack decent employees cut into the profitability at the time. People wanted per event instead of contracts and to me it didn't make much sense to do event plowing because it was a hassle with them trying to low ball me all the time. So couple that problem with fact I targeted smaller restaurants and larger facilities- a mistake I will not make this time I saw a drop in profitability that lead me to go into other avenues where I could do higher profitable work.


so, how about either not responding to one another any longer or, do so in a decent, professional way so as to not insult each other and ruin this thread...again, not that difficult for two grown men to do, right?

sorry to the OP and back on with the discussion


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Fd4x4 you could try using email blasts-- they are usually better for clients you already have. But if you check a lot of sites you can places to email. If you're decent with desktop publishing and perhaps some video of your work using youtube you can generate a decent little piece of media for yourself. 

We are in the process of developing this. This way our audience get hit both with paper media and digital media as well.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> so, how about either not responding to one another any longer or, do so in a decent, professional way so as to not insult each other and ruin this thread...again, not that difficult for two grown men to do, right?
> 
> sorry to the OP and back on with the discussion





Fd4x4 said:


> When you do direct bulk mail like that I'm going to guess you hire and outside service? I usually mail nice post cards or large magnets and safety letter about cold safety and how to prevent fires just as an extra. Not sure if I should continue with it or it's nust a waste.


I will send a pm with a sample of what I send out.


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## Fd4x4 (Jul 11, 2018)

ConnorExum said:


> Fd4x4 you could try using email blasts-- they are usually better for clients you already have. But if you check a lot of sites you can places to email. If you're decent with desktop publishing and perhaps some video of your work using youtube you can generate a decent little piece of media for yourself.
> 
> We are in the process of developing this. This way our audience get hit both with paper media and digital media as well.


Wow that's a great idea. Let me know how it works for you. Never thought of something like that.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Usually they call us because they've seen us on another property and liked our work. I've tried cold calling before but it's not been effective.
> 
> OP some advice: don't take advice from someone that doesn't nor never has plowed commercially in regards to obtaining commercial accounts.


 That's how I got my start, My beer store I was plowing myself and commercial customers where coming in and asking who done the snow. I guess I was having fun and did a better job because I had no other accounts to worry about, I soon learned I could not be that particular when I had 13 medium commercial accounts to handle, just me and a operator and his truck when he got the layoff.

Course things were a little easier back then when you did not have to carry a huge GL and WC. Today no one will take you without both sole operator or not. As far as finding work you got to bang the door down till a potential client gets tired of seeing you there so they let you in to see what you have to offer.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

I drive around and just walk in and introduce myself at the properties I am interested in.

I also get a lot of hits from my web site and a lot of word of mouth.

I just picked up two more commercial accounts this year just walking in and saying Hi are you interested in a bid for snow plowing.

Almost forgot, I also use google earth and go over the towns I plow in for possible clients, If I see a place I like on it then I go in person and check it out.


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## pipelayer (Oct 6, 2013)

when you guys say direct mailers, what format do you put together? an 8X10 that looks flashy and memorable?


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

I made a website, been plowing for ten years, in past years I would hit the pavement and go door to door for commercial and it's hit or miss. I got my website up 5 months ago, I've gotten 12 calls from National management companies in the past two weeks. Problem is their pricing is super cheap, insurance read are insane high, and this hole GPS app thing is annoying.

Www.rizzosnow.com


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## Fd4x4 (Jul 11, 2018)

Broncslefty7 said:


> I made a website, been plowing for ten years, in past years I would hit the pavement and go door to door for commercial and it's hit or miss. I got my website up 5 months ago, I've gotten 12 calls from National management companies in the past two weeks. Problem is their pricing is super cheap, insurance read are insane high, and this hole GPS app thing is annoying.
> 
> Www.rizzosnow.com


I work for a national company. The app they make us use isn't that terrible. Even the prices are low it's better then nothing. If you shop around insurance wise it's not that bad but strait snow plow policies can make you fall over. But it's nice have 2 or 3 year contracts.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

The insurance isn’t bad, I already have that. It’s the 5 million dollar umbrella they want. I generally carry a 1 million umbrella. They app I can see being annoying with employees and if something is missed I’m sure they will use it as a way to not pay you. Picture this, 3500 for a rite aid for the season, salt and walks included, Lowe’s 19k salt and walks included... we get about 60” a year. All quotes and contracts so far I’ve seen from nationals have been one year.


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## Fd4x4 (Jul 11, 2018)

Broncslefty7 said:


> The insurance isn't bad, I already have that. It's the 5 million dollar umbrella they want. I generally carry a 1 million umbrella. They app I can see being annoying with employees and if something is missed I'm sure they will use it as a way to not pay you. Picture this, 3500 for a rite aid for the season, salt and walks included, Lowe's 19k salt and walks included... we get about 60" a year. All quotes and contracts so far I've seen from nationals have been one year.


Wow 5 mill is a lot. I had to bid on a job for a big place and they wanted I think a 10 mil umbrella. That was a hard no for me. And wow that's low for a rite aide but i look at is as I'll take a low ball number because they they will give me more priorities. So it works out in the long run. The app does suck for employees. But I always follow up with An email with photos because I don't trust the app.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Broncslefty7 said:


> The insurance isn't bad, I already have that. It's the 5 million dollar umbrella they want. I generally carry a 1 million umbrella. They app I can see being annoying with employees and if something is missed I'm sure they will use it as a way to not pay you. Picture this, 3500 for a rite aid for the season, salt and walks included, Lowe's 19k salt and walks included... we get about 60" a year. All quotes and contracts so far I've seen from nationals have been one year.


I hear you, I keep getting calls to do my local targets but they only pay $25,000 for a 7 acre lot zero tolerance including sidewalks.
They want 1/3 million gl with a 5 million umbrella along with a W.C. including disease and 1 million on every truck going in there.

I looked into it, just for the additional insurance it would cost me close to $4,500.00 more on top of what I'm paying for.

Then add in rough est of the storms we get and I would make around a $1,000 dollar profit at the end of the season give or take a few hundred.

For that type of headache I don't think so.

Oh and I would have to start another LLC to go with a different insurance company because my insurance will not cover box stores.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

My insurance is legit and will do whatever I need to to, that’s the benefit of amtrust. If snow is less than 20% of my revenue, I don’t need an independent snow policy. I’d never work for cheap to get more properties. Then your doing a bunch of cheap properties. It’s not illegal to make money. 3500 for s right aid that should be 16k+ with walks and salt and the liability. I don’t use the apps and that’s clearly stated in my contract.  I have GPS on all of my trucks, if they want to login in and check they certainly could. Lowe’s requested 5 trucks lololol


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## Fd4x4 (Jul 11, 2018)

Broncslefty7 said:


> My insurance is legit and will do whatever I need to to, that's the benefit of amtrust. If snow is less than 20% of my revenue, I don't need an independent snow policy. I'd never work for cheap to get more properties. Then your doing a bunch of cheap properties. It's not illegal to make money. 3500 for s right aid that should be 16k+ with walks and salt and the liability. I don't use the apps and that's clearly stated in my contract. I have GPS on all of my trucks, if they want to login in and check they certainly could. Lowe's requested 5 trucks lololol


Agreed. I'm not saying do a bunch of cheap properties. That's just insane. But it has worked out for me to take a lowball on one to gain a few more at a "regular" price.


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## pipelayer (Oct 6, 2013)

Broncslefty7 said:


> I made a website, been plowing for ten years, in past years I would hit the pavement and go door to door for commercial and it's hit or miss. I got my website up 5 months ago, I've gotten 12 calls from National management companies in the past two weeks. Problem is their pricing is super cheap, insurance read are insane high, and this hole GPS app thing is annoying.
> 
> Www.rizzosnow.com


that was my plan this season, i had more than enough work going on, i never got around to it. i wasnt hard up to grow this season, being keeping reliable part time help is tough for me among other things going on.. I do plan on doing a door to door next year. I did also set up a site and i ran google adwords for a while, it led to all residential work. Next season i should have an idea of how much i can grow within means, because as ive said before i dont do property maintenance year round, so i cannot offer a full service contract. so then, id plan a decent marketing strategy.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

My google adwords also brought me 18 scattered resi customers in Newington/Wethersfield/rocky hill/ and Cromwell. We do not do residential though. I dropped 15 of them two years ago, I haven’t gotten a complaint phone call ever since.....

Connecticut labor is tough, I have kids out of high school with 0 work experience coming in asking for $20.00 with benefits lol. Connecticut negative population growth three years in a row also isn’t helping.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Broncslefty7 said:


> My google adwords also brought me 18 scattered resi customers in Newington/Wethersfield/rocky hill/ and Cromwell. We do not do residential though. I dropped 15 of them two years ago, I haven't gotten a complaint phone call ever since.....
> 
> Connecticut labor is tough, I have kids out of high school with 0 work experience coming in asking for $20.00 with benefits lol. Connecticut negative population growth three years in a row also isn't helping.


One reason why I stay away from resi and the other is in my area you have guys competing to do driveways charging $20 to $25 a push up to 12"

I wouldn't get out bed for that.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

Fd4x4 said:


> Has any one ev used Angie's list of any service like that and has success with it in regards to my OP.


Angie's list is ok, thumbtack is better, you only pay when your quote is actually viewed. They don't charge you just to send the lead. Sites like these are normally 100% residential though. My summer time company is a swimming pool construction and service company. I picked up 70k in renovation work, 110k in above ground pool work, and 30k in hot tub repair work from thumbtack this year. StAy away from auto match on thumbtack, and spend a couple hours to beef up your profile. If you want to check mine out, search for RiZzo pools in Newington CT


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## pipelayer (Oct 6, 2013)

Broncslefty7 said:


> Angie's list is ok, thumbtack is better, you only pay when your quote is actually viewed. They don't charge you just to send the lead. Sites like these are normally 100% residential though. My summer time company is a swimming pool construction and service company. I picked up 70k in renovation work, 110k in above ground pool work, and 30k in hot tub repair work from thumbtack this year. StAy away from auto match on thumbtack, and spend a couple hours to beef up your profile. If you want to check mine out, search for RiZzo pools in Newington CT


I did this to keep a few guys on with property maintenance, i pulled about 30 residential customers. it was not enough work load to keep things profitable, but i am trying this this upcoming spring with my plumbing business. so far everything has been word of mouth and past customers, im looking forward to A few things like this, and using technology to my advantage lol


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Fd4x4 said:


> Even the prices are low it's better then nothing.


Are you sure about that?


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

Only work for low prices if that's what you feel you are worth. You don't have to demand high prices either but what is wrong with fair prices? When we deal directly with a commercial customer it always works out for the both of us but when we have to deal with NSP's we find they usually want you to work for half price. Some you can dicker with and get your price, some just ask what your price is and say it's yours while other are just cheap, cheap, cheap. These people rely on the contractor that will work for a lower price than he should just to say something is better than nothing and will continue to do so as long as they can find contractors that feel that way.


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