# First Run under my belt. Few questions for the vets



## JT&SONS

Ok so we got a 5in wet snow yesterday I plowed with my one truck and a 8.2 for 12hrs and did 72 drives a apartment complex a fraternity and another commercial lot.

One of my questions is I learned real fast I need another truck which I know you guys have been telling me to **** or get off the pot. And I haven't bought one yet. Not because I haven't tried but because the ones I go after either or best on when I get there or at the auction the price goes above my budget.

So in all my contracts I'm very specific and state commercial properties are done before residential and I dont guarantee a time for drives to be cleared. Do you guys set a time of them to be done by? 

I had 2 customers that complained there drive was not clear at 6am the snow started to fly at 2am didnt stop till 10am. I basically told them there push was free and they need to find another company for snow removal. I'm sure there whining will only continue or get worse. And there is now way possible I can guarantee a time like that. So I was wondering what are your guys policies when it comes to residental drives.


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## sota

I would say it depends on what you want.
You can put whatever you want in your contract, as you did with stipulating that commercial comes before residential.
you COULD, for example:
* have an unofficial push-now option if they pay in cash plus an extra fee at the time of a call.
* write in a residential contract that they have a higher priority, but cost more.
* kick them to the curb as you apparently did.

It's all about what you want in terms of hassle and pay.
Me, I'm a sub to my landscaper, so if he says "abandon route and go push this drive/lot/whatever now", I will and do because I get paid by the hour; it costs him more to do that as it wastes time.

In my "real" gig (I.T.) I have an unofficial "drop everything and fix my **** now" option I tell them if they really are complaining. It's amazing how patient people get when you tell them it's $1,000 in my hand as soon as I walk in the door, on top of whatever the regular costs would be, to have me do that. So far I've only ever had one take me up on it, and yes he's still a client even 10 years later.


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## BUFF

JT&SONS said:


> Ok so we got a 5in wet snow yesterday I plowed with my one truck and a 8.2 for 12hrs and did 72 drives a apartment complex a fraternity and another commercial lot.
> 
> One of my questions is I learned real fast I need another truck which I know you guys have been telling me to **** or get off the pot. And I haven't bought one yet. Not because I haven't tried but because the ones I go after either or best on when I get there or at the auction the price goes above my budget.
> 
> So in all my contracts I'm very specific and state commercial properties are done before residential and I dont guarantee a time for drives to be cleared. Do you guys set a time of them to be done by?
> 
> I had 2 customers that complained there drive was not clear at 6am the snow started to fly at 2am didnt stop till 10am. I basically told them there push was free and they need to find another company for snow removal. I'm sure there whining will only continue or get worse. And there is now way possible I can guarantee a time like that. So I was wondering what are your guys policies when it comes to residental drives.


Welcome to the "show".......
2 out of 72 Homeowners complaining is pretty good for your 1st rodeo. 
Tell them you have no control on the weather and the timing of when a storm starts. 
Tell them your route is set up for efficiencies which help keep cost down. I wouldn't even offer premium service charges, you'll probably waste more time driving there than the premium charge covers.


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## Sawboy

Like Buff said. 2 of 72 in Resi is a good number. Kiss em goodbye and keep rolling.


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## iceyman

What happens when you get the 16” storm.. that number will be 36/72 complaining..impressive number of clients that will be pissed if ur only truck breaks down or they get serviced 2 days later


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## JT&SONS

iceyman said:


> What happens when you get the 16" storm.. that number will be 36/72 complaining..impressive number of clients that will be pissed if ur only truck breaks down or they get serviced 2 days later


if we get a 16 in snowfall my town will shut down. We average 26in total for the season. Even 8in storm here shuts us down for a day or 2. But I am looking hard for a truck. It's sad to say but it still bothered me having 2 complaints I don't like letting people down even if it's unrealistic.

My main concern was the HOA I managed to get 42 drives all sidewalks and the road was done in 3.5 hrs this was done with me in the truck with front plow and tailgate salter and my 2 boys with shovels. Considering I had never dropped a blade till yesterday I think that's good. I don't know maybe not.

After all costs payroll insurance etc. and then i deducted 500.00 for business growth. I made 960.00 83.30 an hr not sure if that's good or not compared to the industry standard but that's what I did for my first run. and that will be the same for any storm of 2in after 3.99 that total will go up.


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## JMHConstruction

I'm going to go ahead and say this now, and it has nothing to do with your post. If you have 72 residential customers in your first year, you aren't charged anywhere close to enough. You could have probably doubled your price, lost half your clients (because of being too high), done have the work, made the same revenue, and your profits would have been much much higher. Just a thought for the future.


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## iceyman

JT&SONS said:


> if we get a 16 in snowfall my town will shut down. We average 26in total for the season. Even 8in storm here shuts us down for a day or 2. But I am looking hard for a truck. It's sad to say but it still bothered me having 2 complaints I don't like letting people down even if it's unrealistic.
> 
> My main concern was the HOA I managed to get 42 drives all sidewalks and the road was done in 3.5 hrs this was done with me in the truck with front plow and tailgate salter and my 2 boys with shovels. Considering I had never dropped a blade till yesterday I think that's good. I don't know maybe not.
> 
> After all costs payroll insurance etc. and then i deducted 500.00 for business growth. I made 960.00 83.30 an hr not sure if that's good or not compared to the industry standard but that's what I did for my first run. and that will be the same for any storm of 2in after 3.99 that total will go up.


Im just trying to be real. You never know when a plow or truck can crap the bed.


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## JT&SONS

JMHConstruction said:


> I'm going to go ahead and say this now, and it has nothing to do with your post. If you have 72 residential customers in your first year, you aren't charged anywhere close to enough. You could have probably doubled your price, lost half your clients (because of being too high), done have the work, made the same revenue, and your profits would have been much much higher. Just a thought for the future.


Please, I want to hear what anyone has to say we might not have hit it off the best on this site but I am fully aware of the troves of knowledge on this site even if its a few elite guys.

I always forget to make a point that 42 of the homes are one account and that might not make a difference at all in peoples opinions. I honestly could really use any advice or tips possible. I'm not gonna lie I'm scared of this whole thing but I have never back down from anything. I can also tell you Friday morning before I started plowing i puked i was so nervous. But I did it & I will prevail. With the help from this forum! Then someday I will be able to be the one helping someone else.


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## JT&SONS

iceyman said:


> Im just trying to be real. You never know when a plow or truck can crap the bed.


I totally agree and if i have taken one thing from this site its i need a back up.

I am looking daily I have 13.5 ready to go if I could just find one. I have been close on a few and either they are sold before I get there or the price at the auction goes to high. Like Wednesday I went to the auction again there was 2004 3500 dump box 4x4 regular cab plain jane and the dang thing went for 13800 the truck full retail was 13500 granite it was clean and only had 32,300 on the 6.0 vortec. But that's just too high I went 12500 and that was my max. My goal in the next week is buy a truck and get a plow on it.


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## Randall Ave

As I have said in one of your other threads. Just go buy a truck, this ain't rocket science. The storm we just had, trucks were dropping Like crazy.


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## leolkfrm

set a 3 inch trigger for resi, more if lower trigger is desired, another up charge for done by 6 am


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## Chineau

Good morning, a couple thoughts thicker skin a fellow who was my neighbour and passed his business on to his children gave a word of advice," there will always be whiny whacky nut balls that you cannot make happy" understand that. Is this person being reasonable no to bad, tell them how you do it and what you charge there is no Union behind you to make it better.
Someone gave you excellent advice when you get near one hundred properties look at your price it can probably go up. Seventy plus driveways you are doing good invest in yourself and get the right equipment, have a great day.


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## JMHConstruction

JT&SONS said:


> Please, I want to hear what anyone has to say we might not have hit it off the best on this site but I am fully aware of the troves of knowledge on this site even if its a few elite guys.
> 
> I always forget to make a point that 42 of the homes are one account and that might not make a difference at all in peoples opinions. I honestly could really use any advice or tips possible. I'm not gonna lie I'm scared of this whole thing but I have never back down from anything. I can also tell you Friday morning before I started plowing i puked i was so nervous. But I did it & I will prevail. With the help from this forum! Then someday I will be able to be the one helping someone else.


Yeah, I saw your post about the 42 property HOA after I replied. A little premature on my end, but I would still look at your prices.

You did a good job filling your route, but you're cutting yourself too thin. You definitely need to get another truck, and you may have to install the plow yourself. Ask @cwren2472 how far out their installs are right now. You may get hit hard before you're able to get another plow installed.

How many times did you service your properties in that 5" storm? Were you able to hit your triggers, or at least fairly close? 2 unhappy people out of 72 isn't bad, but you don't want that number to keep climbing because of the inability to clear their lots/drives in a timely manner.

Last thing. Instead of telling your customers to find another company, try to make things right. Apologize and explain to them that you will do your best to get them cleared by 6, but because of the timing on some storms, that won't be possible, and you will make sure they're cleared before they return from work. If they're going to leave, they will. Don't give them the door after only one complaint.


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## 97BlackDiesel

JT&SONS said:


> if we get a 16 in snowfall my town will shut down. We average 26in total for the season. Even 8in storm here shuts us down for a day or 2. But I am looking hard for a truck. It's sad to say but it still bothered me having 2 complaints I don't like letting people down even if it's unrealistic.
> 
> My main concern was the HOA I managed to get 42 drives all sidewalks and the road was done in 3.5 hrs this was done with me in the truck with front plow and tailgate salter and my 2 boys with shovels. Considering I had never dropped a blade till yesterday I think that's good. I don't know maybe not.
> 
> After all costs payroll insurance etc. and then i deducted 500.00 for business growth. I made 960.00 83.30 an hr not sure if that's good or not compared to the industry standard but that's what I did for my first run. and that will be the same for any storm of 2in after 3.99 that total will go up.


Holy smokes. I'm not an expert but if I had 72 drives to do the smallest drive would be 35. You are way underbid. I blew two hoses getting my plow ready and between that and hydraulic fluid it cost me 100. Imagine if u get a flat or ur alternator goes. 900 profit is nice but ur risking too much for it.


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## Mark Oomkes

97BlackDiesel said:


> I'm not an expert but if I had 72 drives to do the smallest drive would be 35. You are way underbid.


It all depends on the area, snowfall amounts, competition, cost of living.

You'll be getting lots of full nights' sleep if you try charging that much for a standard driveway by me. It isn't happening.


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## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> I can also tell you Friday morning before I started plowing i puked i was so nervous.


While I've never puked prior to a storm, I've heard there are others. I know a guy who has been in it longer than me and can't sleep for 1-2 nights prior to a storm because he gets so wound up. I think you'll get over it.



JT&SONS said:


> It's sad to say but it still bothered me having 2 complaints I don't like letting people down even if it's unrealistic.


No one likes complaints. No one likes to lose customers, for the most part. But unreasonable customers you are better off without.

Plenty of good advice given. I (as in the CFO) probably would have tried to explain to them why they were unreasonable in their complaints. If they can't comprehend that we have no control over the weather and we do not dedicate a truck to their driveway, this is a customer you don't want.


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## 97BlackDiesel

Mark Oomkes said:


> It all depends on the area, snowfall amounts, competition, cost of living.
> 
> You'll be getting lots of full nights' sleep if you try charging that much for a standard driveway by me. It isn't happening.


Correct but he said the annual snowfall is like 25inches.


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## Mark Oomkes

97BlackDiesel said:


> Correct but he said the annual snowfall is like 25inches.


Too tired to do the math, but what was his effective hourly rate?

Someone can charge $35 a drive, but only get 2 serviced per hour. Someone else might get $10 a drive but get 12 done an hour.

Don't focus on the actual dollar amount, focus on the dollars per hour.


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## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> While I've never puked prior to a storm, I've heard there are others. I know a guy who has been in it longer than me and can't sleep for 1-2 nights prior to a storm because he gets so wound up. I think you'll get over it
> 
> No one likes complaints. No one likes to lose customers, for the most part. But unreasonable customers you are better off without.
> 
> Plenty of good advice given. I (as in the CFO) probably would have tried to explain to them why they were unreasonable in their complaints. If they can't comprehend that we have no control over the weather and we do not dedicate a truck to their driveway, this is a customer you don't want.


Thanks Mark this meant a lot to hear you say.


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## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> Too tired to do the math, but what was his effective hourly rate?
> 
> Someone can charge $35 a drive, but only get 2 serviced per hour. Someone else might get $10 a drive but get 12 done an hour.
> 
> Don't focus on the actual dollar amount, focus on the dollars per hour.


I was averaging between 4 a hr the way my route set was ill have 4to6 real close then ill have to drive 5 to 10 mins then a few more and so on. I figured time wise I was really clumsy with the plow and definitely not efficient with it. I should realistically after a couple storms I would think cut my time by a 1/3 if not in 1/2 another thing to keep in mind is I only had 2 shovelers the whole time. I have 5 lined up.

Its looking like another 3in event this afternoon into the morning so I'm trying to get ready to go now. And not get caught like the last storm where everyone was saying a light dusting and then wham.

I have one question I'm a little unsure and worried this storm has freezing rain on the front side. And I'm not sure if I should go presalt? I only salt the HOA road the apartment complex parking lot and the fraternity. Everything I have read says it's a tricky situation where you don't want the salt down to early so it dilutes I'm going to go check road temps now and pick up another snow blower.


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## Mark Oomkes

Is it raining currently? Freezing rain? 

It is tricky, but it is also important if possible to get salt down before it starts freezing up but not so it washes away. It can be a crap shoot if air and pavement temps are around freezing.


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Too tired to do the math, but what was his effective hourly rate?
> 
> Someone can charge $35 a drive, but only get 2 serviced per hour. Someone else might get $10 a drive but get 12 done an hour.
> 
> Don't focus on the actual dollar amount, focus on the dollars per hour.


 BINGO!


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## BUFF

FredG said:


> BINGO!


Was his name O.....


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## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> Was his name O.....


SKWO...


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## FredG

JT, My biggest concern here is why with the cash in hand you have not bought a backup truck. I can post a bunch of trucks at your budget or below that will suit your needs.

Granted your not shopping at the best time for a plow truck. Furthermore what are you expecting to get for 12K? Being a spec out plow truck new is in excess of $40K don't expect something close to new, Yes I understand depreciation.https://www.auctionsinternational.c...d-f250-sd-xl-4x4-pickup-truck-with-plow-98719 I'm afraid you got a touch of cold feet.


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## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> JT, My biggest concern here is why with the cash in hand you have not bought a backup truck.


At this point, I'd be going over my self allowed budget to get a backup truck if that's what it took.


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## FredG

https://fingerlakes.craigslist.org/hvo/d/harder-smith-spreader-plus/6748976986.html

This is one of my plow trucks for sale. The price is not firm. Not really interested in selling it to a PS member but is okay. My point is the trucks are out there.


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## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> Is it raining currently? Freezing rain?
> 
> It is tricky, but it is also important if possible to get salt down before it starts freezing up but not so it washes away. It can be a crap shoot if air and pavement temps are around freezing.


Ok so I just went and checked pavement temps are at 35. The ambient temp is 37 with a real feel of 28 its not raining its damp cause there is a lot of moister in the air its kinda foggy as well. The front side of the system is showing mixed. The back side is snow by the time it hits us temps will be around 28 is what it looks like. There is still a possibility of the storm moving north but the chances are now to 80%


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> At this point, I'd be going over my self allowed budget to get a backup truck if that's what it took.


 For sure or go under it. One break down the party most likely will be over.


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## FredG

BUFF said:


> Was his name O.....


 Yes and he hit the nail on the head.


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## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> pavement temps are at 35


Pavement temps always lag air temps...up or down.



JT&SONS said:


> real feel of 28


Real feel\wind chill has no part in snow or ice accumulation. For future reference. Ignore that.

Peru is 35° and snow. Freezing temps are a couple hours away from you yet. I don't see any freezing rain in the area.

Not saying it won't hurt to salt, even if you just get snow. But I don't see freezing rain in your future.


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## Mark Oomkes

BTW...the graphics on the radar are not accurate. They use some algorithm based on precip and air temps. What the radar shows in pretty colors is NOT necessarily what is happening. You're better off checking actual current conditions in towns around you then depending on those pretty colors.


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## Mark Oomkes

Another thing...customers will "stretch the truth" or just flat out lie to get you to do something or not even that. 

Had one customer several years ago claim she had 4" on her driveway and all her neighbors had been plowed. Couple problems with this. 

1) I drove over and there was an inch. Trigger is 1.5" 
2) We plow all her neighbors except 1 and none were done. Not even the one we don't do. 

They're still a customer.

About 2/3's of the way through the season another one claimed we had only done his driveway twice. Our operator stated he did it every time we did the rest in the neighborhood. I have zero reason to believe our operator was lying. The driveway was marked just like the rest, we had no complaints from anyone else in the neighborhood. Why would he skip the same one that often? Gave the guy a partial refund and told him he might as well keep doing it himself since allegedly we weren't doing it. Sure buddy, 80+ years in business and we've stuck around this long by cheating our customers. 

Just things to keep in mind.


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## theplowmeister

I Guarantee a path out by 7:00 AM for my 100 customers. I plow ONLY houses.


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## kimber750

theplowmeister said:


> I Guarantee a path out by 7:00 AM for my 100 customers. I plow ONLY houses.


And if it starts snowing at 6am you are gonna plow 100 drives in an hour?


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## Mark Oomkes

kimber750 said:


> And if it starts snowing at 6am you are gonna plow 100 drives in an hour?


Sure thing...doesn't everybody?


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> SKW...


LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JT&SONS

I am a very polite person.
I can't spell for **** & terrible grammar that's what happens when you blow school off. I had kids and got married at the age of 17 had to go straight to work to support my family. Got divorced age 22 took custody of my twin boys ex-wife took our daughter still no time to finish school or get a higher education.

What pisses me off is this is a forum & have frequented many and never been so scrutinized. Took me a minute to understand that the people on here truly do mean well. They are not just trying to belittle you. I figured out there is a ton of knowledge on here and honestly if you want help or to learn then you need to earn it. It will not just be handed to you. That was the reason for my bipolar ways.

The truck is a very big decision for me so yes I'm being very cautious and to cautious according to most.

The thing makes me wonder is I have been on here since around July and have not saw or read one post from you. Then you come in here calling me a fake. Not sure why. And here is the cash for the truck since you question that as well










Here is the BN plow I just bought since I like to drive around looking like I plow I decided to buy stainless steal so I could look cool.


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## FredG

JT&SONS said:


> I am a very polite person.
> I can't spell for **** & terrible grammar that's what happens when you blow school off. I had kids and got married at the age of 17 had to go straight to work to support my family. Got divorced age 22 took custody of my twin boys ex-wife took our daughter still no time to finish school or get a higher education.
> 
> What pisses me off is this is a forum & have frequented many and never been so scrutinized. Took me a minute to understand that the people on here truly do mean well. They are not just trying to belittle you. I figured out there is a ton of knowledge on here and honestly if you want help or to learn then you need to earn it. It will not just be handed to you. That was the reason for my bipolar ways.
> 
> The truck is a very big decision for me so yes I'm being very cautious and to cautious according to most.
> 
> The thing makes me wonder is I have been on here since around July and have not saw or read one post from you. Then you come in here calling me a fake. Not sure why. And here is the cash for the truck since you question that as well
> 
> View attachment 186360
> 
> 
> Here is the BN plow I just bought since I like to drive around looking like I plow I decided to buy stainless steal so I could look cool.
> View attachment 186361
> View attachment 186360


 Don't sweat it, You should of seen me before them :terribletowel:doctors got me medicated correctly.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Mike_PS

he's asking for assistance from people so he need to attack him, call names or use profanity...so clean it up or move on


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## JT&SONS

Thanks guys. 
This is the last time i will respond to who ever this guys is that likes to try and take the one thing a man has in this world his honesty and dignity.


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## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> I am a very polite person.
> I can't spell for **** & terrible grammar that's what happens when you blow school off. I had kids and got married at the age of 17 had to go straight to work to support my family. Got divorced age 22 took custody of my twin boys ex-wife took our daughter still no time to finish school or get a higher education.
> 
> What pisses me off is this is a forum & have frequented many and never been so scrutinized. Took me a minute to understand that the people on here truly do mean well. They are not just trying to belittle you. I figured out there is a ton of knowledge on here and honestly if you want help or to learn then you need to earn it. It will not just be handed to you. That was the reason for my bipolar ways.
> 
> The truck is a very big decision for me so yes I'm being very cautious and to cautious according to most.
> 
> The thing makes me wonder is I have been on here since around July and have not saw or read one post from you. Then you come in here calling me a fake. Not sure why. And here is the cash for the truck since you question that as well
> 
> View attachment 186360
> 
> 
> Here is the BN plow I just bought since I like to drive around looking like I plow I decided to buy stainless steal so I could look cool.
> View attachment 186361
> View attachment 186360


Don't worry it's hard to take someone serious who wears a cheesewheel.


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## midnight pumpkin

Setting the customer expectation up front is huge, also rehearsing an explanation of how you work etc. as people just don't understand unless it's explained to them. Only makes sense that if we are getting 6 inches and by 7am 4 of it fell they shouldn't expect it to be done AND to be cleaned up at 10am when the full 6 inches has fallen. The way i see it is that if you live in Maine and can't get out of your average driveway with 4 inches of snow, either buy some snow tires, or stay home. From what you described I'm somewhat playing the same game you are. One man band, i have about 35 residential driveways, (1 self storage facility that can wait till the next day.) My route is spread out though, just driving my route house to house is a 60 mile loop. Had my 1st run of the season a few days ago with 5 inches, took me 10 hours but some time was wasted staking a few last minute driveways that popped up and chatting with a few of the customers. You'll get much quicker at it....the 1st storm is the worst as thats when you push everything back the farthest, and have to be most careful of the ground not being frozen, learning the driveway, etc. For reference i averaged $148/hr. I also just bought a cheap back up truck. Just a '04 silverado 1500 with a 7.5 HD straight blade. I'll be able to keep my tailgate spreader on it so i don't have to remove the Ebling off my main truck. The stress is inevitable, that's because you give a ****. Make sure you get paid for it. Last year i missed my daughter's 1st Christmas because of a storm, and this last weekend i was plowing this season's 1st storm 12 hours after the birth of my son. Pay up *****es.


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## Randall Ave

I'm not sticking up for anyone. But things have been pretty civil around here lately.


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## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> Another thing...customers will "stretch the truth" or just flat out lie to get you to do something or not even that.
> 
> .


Ha... kinda like someone calling and telling that a snow melt system is junk and does not work... then you show up and take pictures of wet sidewalks and an inch of snow sitting on their lot????


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## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> Ha... kinda like someone calling and telling that a snow melt system is junk and does not work... then you show up and take pictures of wet sidewalks and an inch of snow sitting on their lot????


Eggzactly


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## framer1901

If you don't invest in a back up truck, at least get a vacuum food sealer for the green stuff - much harder for the bills to fall out and get lost. Not sure why, but it seems they get greasy in the safe also.......

In all seriousness - this type of business sucks - if you do it anything more than part time, you really need a back up plan, whether it be a truck or friends. Do Do will happen - new stuff is less apt to break but wtf do you do when it does?


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## Chineau

It occurs to me to ask if you get another truck do you have a reliable bum to put in the seat it is always nice to have more equipment but my thought if tires ain't turning maybe should have saved the money and when you do spend it buy the best you can afford with enough horse power.


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## JT&SONS

Chineau said:


> It occurs to me to ask if you get another truck do you have a reliable bum to put in the seat it is always nice to have more equipment but my thought if tires ain't turning maybe should have saved the money and when you do spend it buy the best you can afford with enough horse power.


My Ol man is gonna drive or I have 2 other options.


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## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> After all costs payroll insurance etc. and then i deducted 500.00 for business growth. I made 960.00 83.30 an hr not sure if that's good or not compared to the industry standard but that's what I did for my first run. and that will be the same for any storm of 2in after 3.99 that total will go up.


I have just a couple questions on this... the "deduct of $500 for business growth" confuses me for some reason.

So the $83.30/hr is what you paid yourself or what the company profited?

Did you in fact pay yourself anything while arriving to this total if it is corp profit?

Is this profit accounting for all the out lay overhead that you just recently accumulated to plow this snow? (plow, tires, etc.)

Does this profit account for all the overhead accrued from time spent acquiring this work? and will it cover the time spent doing payroll, sending invoices, and chasing said money?

I hate to be a downer... but these are are the harsh reality's of a real business that when you run the "quick numbers" are often overlooked that in the end make it not so fantastic...


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## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> Too tired to do the math, but what was his effective hourly rate?
> 
> Someone can charge $35 a drive, but only get 2 serviced per hour. Someone else might get $10 a drive but get 12 done an hour.
> 
> Don't focus on the actual dollar amount, focus on the dollars per hour.


Hey, knock it off...


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## FredG

Definitely have to know your off the top layout. I don't remember the opening post from JT, If the $83.00 is after the lay out I would think that's good but I doubt it is. 

Mr Phil, I don't think your a downer this kid wants to learn and knows he got to earn the ropes. Most new guys that come here for advise just want you to tell them how much to bid the job for and how much for spreading.

Most that been in business for a reasonable amount of time know there is way more to it than that. He can learn here and make it easy on himself or go to hard knox like we did. When I started I sure wish I listened more in hind site. Looking back I should of been walking away with 3 boots, 2 on my feet and the other one in the backside. LMAO


----------



## Philbilly2

FredG said:


> Definitely have to know your off the top layout. I don't remember the opening post from JT, If the $83.00 is after the lay out I would think that's good but I doubt it is.




The hardest part to comprehend on overhead is that when you complete one event or task, all that money after you cover your event cost is "profit"... yeah... no... not just yet

Your overhead travels with you all year long if your a legit operation. You always have payroll, taxes, rent, supplies, heat, electric, internet, insurance, upkeep, wear and tear, down to envelopes and stamps to send the invoices out. I can go on for days... And best part is at the end of the year if there is any "real profit" good old Uncle Sam is there for his handout too!

Even if you have not started your truck in a week to go push snow, all these costs are always still there. They slowly eat that presumed "profit" no matter what until the next job or event comes around.

In my line of work, there are guys that are one or two man shops. I loose work to them every day and I am totally OK with it. I happen to know my operation's cost per hour to operate. I cannot send a man to a site knowing that my cost per hour cannot be achieved even if they work twice as fast as those guys would. BUT... I will also say that if I understood actual cost per hour when I started, my first two years in business most likely would have been a little bit more profitable...

If you are using Quickbooks, a simple Profit and Loss Report run plus a touch of mathematical knowledge can be your best friend to protect yourself from being your own demise.


----------



## JMHConstruction

Philbilly2 said:


> BUT... I will also say that if I understood actual cost per hour when I started, my first two years in business most likely would have been a little bit more profitable...



It was hard for me to get out of the employee mentality for my costs and even salary, and also get over being worried about loosing a job because my price seemed sooo high. I couldn't comprehend charging someone $150-200 an hour to build their deck (plus materials), even if I did have 3 guys working it. Life sure got easy afterwards though.

I will say though, I pulled the same crap this year, and my bank account shows it. I never adjusted my overhead costs, even though jobs were taking almost twice as long. Hard to make $X a day when you aren't bidding enough trying to stay competitive. I just kept telling myself, this will change, the crew will get better, and it never did...:hammerhead: gotta be smart enough to know when to reevaluate


----------



## Philbilly2

JMHConstruction said:


> It was hard for me to get out of the employee mentality for my costs and even salary, and also get over being worried about loosing a job because my price seemed sooo high. I couldn't comprehend charging someone $150-200 an hour to build their deck (plus materials), even if I did have 3 guys working it. Life sure got easy afterwards though.
> 
> I will say though, I pulled the same crap this year, and my bank account shows it. I never adjusted my overhead costs, even though jobs were taking almost twice as long. Hard to make $X a day when you aren't bidding enough trying to stay competitive. I just kept telling myself, this will change, the crew will get better, and it never did...:hammerhead: gotta be smart enough to know when to reevaluate


I hear you loud and clear 

My cost per hour is $98.03 per man hour to run the show. Down from $114 in 2017. $80 of that hour is just labor cost...  Figured running at 85% productivity respectively


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## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> plus a touch of mathematical knowledge


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Or this one...


----------



## Philbilly2




----------



## Mike_PS

alright, let's keep it on point...no need for the recent images


----------



## Philbilly2

Michael J. Donovan said:


> alright, let's keep it on point...no need for the recent images


Sorry boss. Just trying to keep things bright and cheery round here.


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## Mike_PS

Philbilly2 said:


> Sorry boss. Just trying to keep things bright and cheery round here.


that's why I'm here Thumbs Up:laugh::laugh:


----------



## Philbilly2

Michael J. Donovan said:


> that's why I'm here Thumbs Up:laugh::laugh:


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## Mark Oomkes

Michael J. Donovan said:


> that's why I'm here Thumbs Up:laugh::laugh:


If you say so...


----------



## Defcon 5

Michael J. Donovan said:


> that's why I'm here Thumbs Up:laugh::laugh:


I just wanted to say Thank You....Having a tough day ...That comment made me laugh out loud...


----------



## JT&SONS

Philbilly2 said:


> I have just a couple questions on this... the "deduct of $500 for business growth" confuses me for some reason.
> 
> So the $83.30/hr is what you paid yourself or what the company profited?
> 
> Did you in fact pay yourself anything while arriving to this total if it is corp profit?
> 
> Is this profit accounting for all the out lay overhead that you just recently accumulated to plow this snow? (plow, tires, etc.)
> 
> Does this profit account for all the overhead accrued from time spent acquiring this work? and will it cover the time spent doing payroll, sending invoices, and chasing said money?
> 
> I hate to be a downer... but these are are the harsh reality's of a real business that when you run the "quick numbers" are often overlooked that in the end make it not so fantastic...


I honestly can't answer all these questions. This is where I really struggle to understand the workings. I'm trying to figure all this out but for some reason, it's very confusing to me. And if someone can spell all this out in leman terms for a dumb ass I would be greatly indebted to you.

What I did was took the gross of what I made deducted pay for help & fuel costs then I took 500 off the top for the business savings account. That left me with the 83.30 an hr. I pay myself 15.00 an hr so I guess 68.30hr is left after that. I'm really bad with this part I'm trying to learn but I just can't seem to grasp it. If it makes a difference I grossed 160hr before any deductions. I figure once I get the hang of the plow I will shave 4 hrs off from sheer lack of experience. So my hrly should go up but regardless I vowed to only take 15.00 hr for the first year and the 2nd if need be to get this thing off the ground.


----------



## kimber750

Consider you first time a success if you didn't knock over a flag pole, blow up a transmission trying to get of a ditch, get a skiddy wedged between a trailer and low clearance bar or needed a life jacket. These are all things experienced snow removal guys have done. 

Take some of that profit and get some spare parts. Hoses, solenoid and fluid for plow. Something as simple as a snowplow shovel can help make your route quicker.


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## JT&SONS

kimber750 said:


> Consider you first time a success if you didn't knock over a flag pole, blow up a transmission trying to get of a ditch, get a skiddy wedged between a trailer and low clearance bar or needed a life jacket. These are all things experienced snow removal guys have done.
> 
> Take some of that profit and get some spare parts. Hoses, solenoid and fluid for plow. Something as simple as a snowplow shovel can help make your route quicker.


What parts should I keep on hand?


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> I honestly can't answer all these questions. This is where I really struggle to understand the workings. I'm trying to figure all this out but for some reason, it's very confusing to me. And if someone can spell all this out in leman terms for a dumb ass I would be greatly indebted to you.
> 
> What I did was took the gross of what I made deducted pay for help & fuel costs then I took 500 off the top for the business savings account. That left me with the 83.30 an hr. I pay myself 15.00 an hr so I guess 68.30hr is left after that. I'm really bad with this part I'm trying to learn but I just can't seem to grasp it. If it makes a difference I grossed 160hr before any deductions. I figure once I get the hang of the plow I will shave 4 hrs off from sheer lack of experience. So my hrly should go up but regardless I vowed to only take 15.00 hr for the first year and the 2nd if need be to get this thing off the ground.


You will need to know how much your TOTAL annual expenses are. This mean everything that takes money out of your operating account.

You also need available working hours for total number of employees.

So figure if your basing on a standard 40 hour week. 50 working weeks in a year. Gives you 2000 hours. Figure 85% of that is productive. This gives you 1700 production hours per man. Now multiply by your amount of staff.

Example:
So say you have 2 people on payroll you have 3400 production hours annually.

Take your total annual EXPENSE column only and devide that by workable hours.

Example:
Say your total annual EXPENSES total figure to $500,000 and you have those 2 persons on payroll that can work 3400 production hours. This will make your break even cost per hour at $147.06.

I would personally take your number for you CPH and multiply it by 1.20 and if you are not charging at least that number, you need to do a price hike or you will be stuck paying yourself $15 an hour for far more than just your first year.

Hope that helps?


----------



## JMHConstruction

JT&SONS said:


> I honestly can't answer all these questions. This is where I really struggle to understand the workings. I'm trying to figure all this out but for some reason, it's very confusing to me. And if someone can spell all this out in leman terms for a dumb ass I would be greatly indebted to you.
> 
> What I did was took the gross of what I made deducted pay for help & fuel costs then I took 500 off the top for the business savings account. That left me with the 83.30 an hr. I pay myself 15.00 an hr so I guess 68.30hr is left after that. I'm really bad with this part I'm trying to learn but I just can't seem to grasp it. If it makes a difference I grossed 160hr before any deductions. I figure once I get the hang of the plow I will shave 4 hrs off from sheer lack of experience. So my hrly should go up but regardless I vowed to only take 15.00 hr for the first year and the 2nd if need be to get this thing off the ground.


First, I applaud you for taking so little for yourself, and throwing the rest into your business for growth. That said, it shouldn't be because you didn't make enough to bring more home while doing so (if that makes sense).

I'm unsure what your schedule looks like, but do you have time in the evenings to take a business class at your local community college? Mine has small business classes that while they earn credit, aren't really for someone getting a degree. It really helped me out.

There are a few good books I read that also helped me a lot. The best for me was called markup and profit. It helped more with my decking company than snow, but it also can help with any business.

Other than that, it can't really be taught with a post or two. Read as much as you can, watch as much as you can, and take in as much info as possible.


----------



## Randall Ave

JT&SONS said:


> What parts should I keep on hand?


I don't remember what plow you ended up getting. But keep at least a few hoses, the fittings that go into the angle cylinders, a relay, or as some say a solenoid. A few quarts of fluid. Others will give you more ideas.


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## John_DeereGreen

Quick books and a good cpa or at least a good accountant will help you a ton also.


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## Philbilly2

John_DeereGreen said:


> Quick books


If you dont already have this or another business accounting program, take your 500 dollar business investment money and go buy it tommrow.

It will no doubt be the best money you spend dollar for dollar.


----------



## theplowmeister

kimber750 said:


> And if it starts snowing at 6am you are gonna plow 100 drives in an hour?


Dont be stupid.


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## kimber750

theplowmeister said:


> Dont be stupid.


I am not the one guaranteeing a clear drive by 7am.


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## JT&SONS

Philbilly2 said:


> If you dont already have this or another business accounting program, take your 500 dollar business investment money and go buy it tommrow.
> 
> It will no doubt be the best money you spend dollar for dollar.


We use service autopilot. is this not a good option? It seems like its basically running everything.


----------



## JT&SONS

Randall Ave said:


> I don't remember what plow you ended up getting. But keep at least a few hoses, the fittings that go into the angle cylinders, a relay, or as some say a solenoid. A few quarts of fluid. Others will give you more ideas.


8.2 DXT


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## Mark Oomkes

theplowmeister said:


> Dont be stupid.


So you don't guarantee a cleared path by 7...


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## JMHConstruction

Philbilly2 said:


> If you dont already have this or another business accounting program, take your 500 dollar business investment money and go buy it tommrow.
> 
> It will no doubt be the best money you spend dollar for dollar.


And spend the money up front for the desktop. In the long run you will save a fortune. Just back it up on a flash drive once a week or so.

Knowing where you money is going is an incredible asset. This year for example has been one of those years for me that I just want to turn the page and be done with. However, knowing where I screwed up, where my guys screwed up, and where I need to improve is invaluable. It also will help you dial in your overhead by showing you exactly what you're spending, where.


----------



## JT&SONS

JMHConstruction said:


> First, I applaud you for taking so little for yourself, and throwing the rest into your business for growth. That said, it shouldn't be because you didn't make enough to bring more home while doing so (if that makes sense).
> 
> I'm unsure what your schedule looks like, but do you have time in the evenings to take a business class at your local community college? Mine has small business classes that while they earn credit, aren't really for someone getting a degree. It really helped me out.
> 
> There are a few good books I read that also helped me a lot. The best for me was called markup and profit. It helped more with my decking company than snow, but it also can help with any business.
> 
> Other than that, it can't really be taught with a post or two. Read as much as you can, watch as much as you can, and take in as much info as possible.


I am going to definitely look into this.


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## kimber750

JT&SONS said:


> 8.2 DXT


Spare parts I suggest are, fluid, hoses, wing spring and solenoid.


----------



## JMHConstruction

JT&SONS said:


> We use service autopilot. is this not a good option? It seems like its basically running everything.


Just looked it up. As long as they break things down for you, I'm sure it's a great service.

I prefer having everything at my fingertips, not to mention no monthly fees. If you can access it anytime and you like it, keep it


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## The Snow Punishers

JT&SONS said:


> I totally agree and if i have taken one thing from this site its i need a back up.
> 
> I am looking daily I have 13.5 ready to go if I could just find one. I have been close on a few and either they are sold before I get there or the price at the auction goes to high. Like Wednesday I went to the auction again there was 2004 3500 dump box 4x4 regular cab plain jane and the dang thing went for 13800 the truck full retail was 13500 granite it was clean and only had 32,300 on the 6.0 vortec. But that's just too high I went 12500 and that was my max. My goal in the next week is buy a truck and get a plow on it.





Mark Oomkes said:


> It all depends on the area, snowfall amounts, competition, cost of living.
> 
> You'll be getting lots of full nights' sleep if you try charging that much for a standard driveway by me. It isn't happening.


Here in NY our insurance I believe is much higher particularly workers comp adding a 2nd truck therefore is very hard to do. I started high this year as I have a new brand and am more serious. If you're concerned about growing, then having huge liability at the start isn't ideal. I'm starting small gradually reducing prices and finding my sweet spot still admittedly. But to start the other way around in my opinion sets you up for major potential for problems. I'm just a young gun Snow Punisher but think dem there are some words of wisdom. Hell I could've had the local Fire department this year but didnt want that liability early on. When I have decent subs or 2nd truck maybe till then eat dirt learn your lessons while you don't have to pay nearly as much for them as you do later on with high liabilities. At least that's my plan. Hell I'm glad I didnt with the ****show last week


----------



## BUFF

Philbilly2 said:


> You will need to know how much your TOTAL annual expenses are. This mean everything that takes money out of your operating account.
> 
> You also need available working hours for total number of employees.
> 
> So figure if your basing on a standard 40 hour week. 50 working weeks in a year. Gives you 2000 hours. Figure 85% of that is productive. This gives you 1700 production hours per man. Now multiply by your amount of staff.
> 
> Example:
> So say you have 2 people on payroll you have 3400 production hours annually.
> 
> Take your total annual EXPENSE column only and devide that by workable hours.
> 
> Example:
> Say your total annual EXPENSES total figure to $500,000 and you have those 2 persons on payroll that can work 3400 production hours. This will make your break even cost per hour at $147.06.
> 
> I would personally take your number for you CPH and multiply it by 1.20 and if you are not charging at least that number, you need to do a price hike or you will be stuck paying yourself $15 an hour for far more than just your first year.
> 
> Hope that helps?


It's tough to challenge what you clearly and throughly said. Coming for someone that's built a successful biz it has value. However when expanding your business by going into "Indian territory" you don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. You have to take what you know and build from that. It's known JT has a lawn care business and has expanded into snow removal. Fundamentally each industry has similar operating cost. Not to belittle the green industry (not weed @FredG ) but winter work has more variables and risk than summer work in the green industry. 
I know when I get into a new venture I look at past ventures and try to build from that, from there it's gut feel till you have data to learn from.


----------



## Philbilly2

BUFF said:


> It's tough to challenge what you clearly and throughly said. Coming for someone that's built a successful biz it has value. However when expanding your business by going into "Indian territory" you don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. You have to take what you know and build from that. It's known JT has a lawn care business and has expanded into snow removal. Fundamentally each industry has similar operating cost. Not to belittle the green industry (not weed @FredG ) but winter work has more variables and risk than summer work in the green industry.
> I know when I get into a new venture I look at past ventures and try to build from that, from there it's gut feel till you have data to learn from.


I understand and agree with you, but as long as it is the same Corp, the overhead has to be shared across both ventures.

If you need to charge say a $100 an hour just to cover your overhead for your main venture, and you want to start another venture, that 2nd venture will have to assume that same overhead. If it cannot, you will need a separate Corp or your robbing Peter to pay Paul...


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> We use service autopilot. is this not a good option? It seems like its basically running everything.


Sorry, don't know on that. Never heard of it. I will have to look it up and see what it is.


----------



## wishfull

Equipment value depreciates on a daily basis whether it sits idle or it's working. Of course high houred stuff depreciates faster but there is always a cost of ownership. Just try and sell off a 6 month old truck and plow and compare that to what you paid. That number has to be figured into your hourly earnings along with everything else. Sometimes there just isn't much left. The guys here are right when they say get a good book keeping system in place and pay attention to what it is telling you.


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## Mike NY

this may be a good starting point for someone to help you understand setting up and understanding business numbers. https://www.score.org/about-score


----------



## MSsnowplowing

JT&SONS said:


> I honestly can't answer all these questions. This is where I really struggle to understand the workings. I'm trying to figure all this out but for some reason, it's very confusing to me. And if someone can spell all this out in leman terms for a dumb ass I would be greatly indebted to you.
> 
> What I did was took the gross of what I made deducted pay for help & fuel costs then I took 500 off the top for the business savings account. That left me with the 83.30 an hr. I pay myself 15.00 an hr so I guess 68.30hr is left after that. I'm really bad with this part I'm trying to learn but I just can't seem to grasp it. If it makes a difference I grossed 160hr before any deductions. I figure once I get the hang of the plow I will shave 4 hrs off from sheer lack of experience. So my hrly should go up but regardless I vowed to only take 15.00 hr for the first year and the 2nd if need be to get this thing off the ground.


Pick up quickbooks, you can find it for around $140 up to $180.

Watch the videos and learn how to use it. 
It is a great tool for tracking expenses, sending out invoices, etc...
As for your current expenses.
If your plowing on a per storm it will bounce around depending on what you get for snow. It's best to have a mixture of seasonal and per storm.
But off the top my head for expenses:
Fuel
labor
product
insurance, GL, vehicle, etc...
phone bill
electric
food
drinks
repairs
parts
oil
supplies for the company, pens, paper, etc...
programs -(like quickbooks)
computer -(buy a new one and prorate usage every year)
rental equipment -(put the truck into the company name and rent it back to yourself, same thing with equipment, skid steer, snow blowers etc...)
services for the company
Electric

Everything adds up, in the beginning you don't think about all the costs.

The best thing to do is separate the business from personal.

Open up a commercial checking account and just use that for anything business related, you will be surprised at what you spend on the business.

Edit: with quickbooks you can email your invoices, forget the driving around and picking up checks -(waste of fuel and your time) have your clients mail them or open up a paypal account for credit cards or get a square reader.
Quickbooks also offers a credit card option but costs extra.
And if you are wait till black friday or cyber monday to get it -(I'm updating from 2014 to 2019 then myself, and it is a business expensive)


----------



## JMHConstruction

MSsnowplowing said:


> Pick up quickbooks, you can find it for around $140 up to $180.


Where??? It's something like $700 for the desktop


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## JMHConstruction

I stand corrected.

https://quickbooks.intuit.com/desktop/premier/


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## MSsnowplowing

JMHConstruction said:


> Where??? It's something like $700 for the desktop


this is the desktop version -(don't do online it's way more expensive)
Amazon has it for $180 also

https://iquickbooktax.com/products/...3S3gIVyVSGCh1LYQfREAYYBCABEgKh7vD_BwE#reviews

Quickbooks direct site sells it for $180 if you call them up otherwise its around $200.

That's why I'm waiting till this friday hoping it drops another $10 or $20 -(yeah I like to save as much as possible)


----------



## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> Where??? It's something like $700 for the desktop


We use quickbooks and paychex. Everything is going well. Invoicing etc made easy but still stinks to me. Funny thing, you would think invoicing would be a happy time like getting a check in the mail. Still bugs me.   :hammerhead: :laugh:


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Funny thing about the online crap. Well, not funny, because it too is a scam but that's the latest and greatest for computers now too.

Our IT company hosts "servers" or whatever so you don't have to upgrade computers every few years. Allegedly. But you do have to have internet connection. Maybe for someone who HAS to have their computers for daily activities, but we don't. Email on phones, can still access QB on our network, etc we can easily go a few days if 1 computer is down or the internet is. For the monthly fees it would be more expensive in less than 1 year for us to do it the "new and improved" way.


----------



## FredG

JT&SONS said:


> I honestly can't answer all these questions. This is where I really struggle to understand the workings. I'm trying to figure all this out but for some reason, it's very confusing to me. And if someone can spell all this out in leman terms for a dumb ass I would be greatly indebted to you.
> 
> What I did was took the gross of what I made deducted pay for help & fuel costs then I took 500 off the top for the business savings account. That left me with the 83.30 an hr. I pay myself 15.00 an hr so I guess 68.30hr is left after that. I'm really bad with this part I'm trying to learn but I just can't seem to grasp it. If it makes a difference I grossed 160hr before any deductions. I figure once I get the hang of the plow I will shave 4 hrs off from sheer lack of experience. So my hrly should go up but regardless I vowed to only take 15.00 hr for the first year and the 2nd if need be to get this thing off the ground.


 Your not a dumb ass. This is something you don't really learn in a book, yes it's a good start but on hand hardknox is your true education. Where do you think most of us started? We were where you are right now, Not to mention a possible failure once.

You seem good about taking advice even if someone hits you between the eye's. This happens. Take the advise above and once you understand it, it's a piece of cake. What kind of guys you think do this type of work?
Yes I would like to be a accountant like my brother and jump in his Volvo and stay clean and out of the elements.

Unfortunately this is not me. I'm just a diesel smelling getting dirty kinda guy. We made it work and so will you with enough time given. Everybody seems to like you because you seem sincere about what you want to do. PS is a world of knowledge and the members will help you if you do the right thing and not try to skip steps and just want to here what you want to.

Just keep doing what your doing, You got a question your not sure of just ask. I promise it will work for you if you listen, don't go deep in debt and give it sometime.


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> We use service autopilot. is this not a good option? It seems like its basically running everything.


So I took a look at this program from what I can see from the interweb. I can't really tell if this is more of a scheduling program or an accounting program?

Are you able to do a simple profit and loss run threw this program? If so, a standard P&L should give you your entire fiscal year expense report. This will detail how your money is going out. If you can get that number, you can get to your CPH pretty easy.


----------



## JT&SONS

Philbilly2 said:


> So I took a look at this program from what I can see from the interweb. I can't really tell if this is more of a scheduling program or an accounting program?
> 
> Are you able to do a simple profit and loss run threw this program? If so, a standard P&L should give you your entire fiscal year expense report. This will detail how your money is going out. If you can get that number, you can get to your CPH pretty easy.


Sorry for the delay I've been running around like crazy trying to get my last round of ferts done. It does do profit and loss the only thing it's not linked with my business checking. That account is only used for business there has not been anything go in or out of that account that's personal use outside of I funded the account with several thousand to start out of my own money to purchase equipment and operating costs. my ol lady is the one that does all the book work, I'm not sure what her process is. I know she makes a printout and takes it to the accountant in a folder and we get a folder back and everything is done.

Where i need help is with how to figure depreciation and figure my overhead on my own I had my buddy figure it out before I started this and have been running on his numbers for a year. I know those have changed.

Another thing I'm struggling with is the whole hiring someone I'm going to need to hire some people this spring and I want everything legit and on the up and up. I have an appointment to meet with my CPA so we can go over payroll hoping they will get me set straight.


----------



## The Snow Punishers

JT&SONS said:


> Sorry for the delay I've been running around like crazy trying to get my last round of ferts done. It does do profit and loss the only thing it's not linked with my business checking. That account is only used for business there has not been anything go in or out of that account that's personal use outside of I funded the account with several thousand to start out of my own money to purchase equipment and operating costs. my ol lady is the one that does all the book work, I'm not sure what her process is. I know she makes a printout and takes it to the accountant in a folder and we get a folder back and everything is done.
> 
> Where i need help is with how to figure depreciation and figure my overhead on my own I had my buddy figure it out before I started this and have been running on his numbers for a year. I know those have changed.
> 
> Another thing I'm struggling with is the whole hiring someone I'm going to need to hire some people this spring and I want everything legit and on the up and up. I have an appointment to meet with my CPA so we can go over payroll hoping they will get me set straight.


The way I figure out depreciation may be different from some veterans on here because like you I am new to the business and am figuring things out. I know chevy has a maintenance schedule for "high usage" or "high hours" something like that. I'm just spitballing here but hear me out. If chevy has it I bet the internet has it for every make... so take each major component and see its lifespan on high use applications then get the price of repair of said component. Divide the price by miles and you now have depreciation on every part listed per mile! That's where I started but I'm pretty sure you gotta buffer that for unforeseen events to which I think you just need experience to figure it out fine tuned


----------



## wishfull

There are times when depreciation can kick you right where the sun don't shine when you least expect it. I had a loader with 240 hrs. that I was trading off on a bigger unit. Based my depreciation at $25 per hour which was a normal figure for me on these units. Got the price on the new one figured my depreciation on the used one and ordered in the new unit. I went to do the paper work and surprise. John Deere had lowered the price on the new models like my trade was to lower than what my depreciated value was on the used one. $56.00 per hour depreciation. I'd worked that machine for 240 hrs. for almost nothing. If it wasn't for the fact I really needed the new one I would have walked out. So watch for the unexpected when you factor in depreciation to set your rates. I usually always figure in a slight cushion but this was hard to swallow.


----------



## theplowmeister

kimber750 said:


> I am not the one guaranteeing a clear drive by 7am.


Go Back and learn to read

1 I NEVER said "clear"
2 I never said "Drive"

I did say "I Guarantee a path out by 7:00 AM for my 100 customers. I plow ONLY houses."

why would someone need to have a plowed driveway if its only snowed for 1 hour? (no we dont get 4" of snow an hour hear and if we did there would be a travel ban so they would not be out anyways).

the point is people hire me so they can get to work, NOT wait until the parking lots are done. yes people can and do drive over 2 or 3 inches of snow. especially when they get to the streets.


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## kimber750

theplowmeister said:


> Go Back and learn to read
> 
> 1 I NEVER said "clear"
> 2 I never said "Drive"
> 
> I did say "I Guarantee a path out by 7:00 AM for my 100 customers. I plow ONLY houses."
> 
> why would someone need to have a plowed driveway if its only snowed for 1 hour? (no we dont get 4" of snow an hour hear and if we did there would be a travel ban so they would not be out anyways).
> 
> the point is people hire me so they can get to work, NOT wait until the parking lots are done. yes people can and do drive over 2 or 3 inches of snow. especially when they get to the streets.


:laughing: Your feeling are really hurt aren't they? So you go and plow a "path" and not clear the entire drive? Talk about splitting hair in terminology. You will plow the roads so they have a "path" to work? What parking lots? Your signature says "only drives". So what do you do other than driveways to help your customers get to work?

My original point was guaranteeing a path, clear drive, magic carpet ride or whatever you want to call it by 7am is asinine. You have no control over the weather or road conditions. For example the snow we had last week caused such a traffic nightmare it took more than 2 1/2 hours to get on site for us. Never, even in the worst storm we have ever had, has it taken more than 40 minutes to get on site. What then? There are hundreds of things that could cause no "path" by 7am. So keep trying to insult me with your little quips, just making yourself look stupid. This ranks right up there with "zero tolerance" .

P.S. Next time I will also make some words red so I can make some kind of point. :hammerhead:But at least now I know "path out" doesn't have anything to do with plowing driveways.


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## Mark Oomkes

theplowmeister said:


> I did say "I Guarantee a path out by 7:00 AM for my 100 customers. I plow ONLY houses."


So let's go with that...it starts snowing at 5 instead of 6...how do you clear 100 "paths" by 7?


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> So let's go with that...it starts snowing at 5 instead of 6...how do you clear 100 "paths" by 7?


99 Shovelers


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> 99 Shovelers


Comprende...


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Comprende...


Didn't say anything about the shovelers ethnic origin


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Didn't say anything about the shovelers ethnic origin


Neither did I...


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Comprende...


 ESA. :laugh:


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## theplowmeister

You win Ive bean doing it wrong and or not doing it (path out) for 30+ years. 
Its also abundantly clear that there is ONLY one way to plow and its your way, every other way is "asinine" 

OK so you cant... I can and do, in 30 years Ive missed my 7AM deadline 1 time.

Holy crapp you drive 40 minutes to get on site  Maybe thats why you cant get your stuff done in a timely manner. I drive 800 ft to start plowing and all 100 customers are in a 6 mile circle. 

I plow I dont spend my time driving. (I do have another job driving)


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## BossPlow2010

Ya.....

What happens when you have a breakdown?


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## kimber750

theplowmeister said:


> You win Ive bean doing it wrong and or not doing it (path out) for 30+ years.
> Its also abundantly clear that there is ONLY one way to plow and its your way, every other way is "asinine"
> 
> OK so you cant... I can and do, in 30 years Ive missed my 7AM deadline 1 time.
> 
> Holy crapp you drive 40 minutes to get on site  Maybe thats why you cant get your stuff done in a timely manner. I drive 800 ft to start plowing and all 100 customers are in a 6 mile circle.
> 
> I plow I dont spend my time driving. (I do have another job driving)


Who needs to learn how to read now? I said,


kimber750 said:


> Never, even in the worst storm we have ever had, has it taken more than 40 minutes to get on site.


Which was the longest it ever took to get onsite before last Thursdays storm. Since you are concerned about how much I drive on average it is 10-15 minute to get on site. Never said anything about how you plow. Maybe don't agree with your terminology. Still not quite sure what "path" means yet. I said guaranteeing a set time to have a "path" is asinine.

You just keep reading into my posts to find something to pissed about and keep avoiding the fact that the only guarantee in snow removal are: 1. At some point something is going to break. 2. You are gonna hit something. 3. Someone is going to complain. 4. Mother nature is gonna make you look like an ass. 5. At some point we all get sick of the snow.

You said it yourself, you have missed the 7am guarantee, yet continue to say it is possible to guarantee a 7am path. What was the recourse of breaking your guarantee? Nothing? Then what is the point of it? Or did you plow that time for free?

As for my accounts, I think we do just fine. We have no misconceptions that we are perfect and lots will have paths be any set time. Our contract states we will plow in a timely manor to the best of our abilities. If we didn't, we wouldn't be asked to come back year after year. We turn down work every year. Maybe because we clear the snow and not just some paths. So keep digging at me, I am big boy, I can take it.


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## kimber750

BossPlow2010 said:


> Ya.....
> 
> What happens when you have a breakdown?


He walks back to his house 800' away and grabs another Jeep with "duel" batteries.


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## Chineau

Plowmeister why do you care what anybody else thinks you been doing what you do for thirty years chill.
I would ask in your market is it that competitive you need to grantee something snow is a tough business why make it tougher on your self!?


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## FredG




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## theplowmeister

kimber750 said:


> He walks back to his house 800' away and grabs another Jeep with "duel" batteries.


I have backup vehicles. and I do brake down. This first storm I had 2 break downs. I fixed them and still finished my path by 7 AM


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## theplowmeister

Chineau said:


> Plowmeister why do you care what anybody else thinks you been doing what you do for thirty years chill.
> I would ask in your market is it that competitive you need to grantee something snow is a tough business why make it tougher on your self!?


My customers want to get to work. My method gets them out so they can get to work (guarantee) they spred the word I get them out and I am dependable. THAT is why I have 100 customers in 6 miles.


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## theplowmeister

When we have over 4" of snow If there is less than 4 inches of snow the customer can get out to work so I dont need to provide a path by 7 AM
Path = One plow width from garage to street. (Push in to the side, Back drag from garage, push to side. go to next house repeat). When everyone can get out I go back (OMG yes I go Back) and finish plowing. widen the drive do the turn arounds... Then I go BACK and make sure the town has not plowed and blocked any of my customers.

The Next day I go back to see if anybody has moved cars or trash barrels. this takes about 1.5 hours door to door. 

ALL for one price! 
(OFG he goes BACK 4 TIMES. clearly he has no idea of how to charge)

No I dont! I bet I am a low baller, but then with all my customers in 6 miles circle my average time including all the trips back AND drive time is under 10 minutes/customer. so my hourly rate is Good!!


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## theplowmeister

By the way 

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to EVERYONE


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## kimber750

It is Thanksgiving so I will wait until tomorrow to reply. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.


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## John_DeereGreen

As if the overhead discussion wasn’t interesting enough.


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## framer1901

Someone providing a what I'm going to call part time service can do things that no full time what I'll call real business could even think about doing.

Sure it's real work plowing a bunch of driveways overnight, but the overheads aren't even in the same book so you can't look at the methods as being close.

Some of us started from scratch, we've been there done that and forget that we might have done stuff at the beginning that we'd think was foolish now.

The other way is the guy working for himself will never ever have a true understanding of running 15 pieces of equipment a night, you may think you have an idea but until you write the checks, you'll never understand.


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## Chineau

Lesson I take away from this site every where different take what works for you disregard the rest and push that powder!


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## JMHConstruction

theplowmeister said:


> When we have over 4" of snow If there is less than 4 inches of snow the customer can get out to work so I dont need to provide a path by 7 AM
> Path = One plow width from garage to street. (Push in to the side, Back drag from garage, push to side. go to next house repeat). When everyone can get out I go back (OMG yes I go Back) and finish plowing. widen the drive do the turn arounds... Then I go BACK and make sure the town has not plowed and blocked any of my customers.
> 
> The Next day I go back to see if anybody has moved cars or trash barrels. this takes about 1.5 hours door to door.
> 
> ALL for one price!
> (OFG he goes BACK 4 TIMES. clearly he has no idea of how to charge)
> 
> No I dont! I bet I am a low baller, but then with all my customers in 6 miles circle my average time including all the trips back AND drive time is under 10 minutes/customer. so my hourly rate is Good!!


I'm lost here, maybe I missed something. Are your triggers 4"? My old residential customers would have been pissed if I guaranteed a path and there was 4". However, 4" is a lot of snow here.

I'm sure you explain to them what your guarantee covers, but I feel like you're stretching the guarantee when it's a 4" trigger.


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## theplowmeister

I quit

I dont know if I explain it porley or "your" purposely miss understanding or just being a di_ _


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## JMHConstruction

Please explain the "your" you're referring to?


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## kimber750

JMHConstruction said:


> Please explain the "your" you're referring to?


Don't take it personally, he has been on the attack since my comment. Simply put, I don't agree with guaranteeing a time to be clear by since there are way too many factors I have no control over. And since this started with OP getting rid of two customers for not being cleared by a certain time I was just pushing for not using guarantees. But sadly Mr Plow took this as an attack on his way of life. He immediately want on went on the attack. Including his last post saying I may think of him as a lowballer, poor plower and whatever else.

And now for you Plowmiester, it was not attack on your way of life, so relax. I don't believe in guarantees, you yourself posted you have broken that guarantee, even if just once, it was broken. I don't think it should be suggested to someone new to the industry to offer such a guarantee. Not saying you told him him to offer one but the OP was looking for advice from the vets and you are a PS vet. So before MJD comes in here and slaps both of us on the wrist I am done with this discussion. I have made my point and you yours. So in closing I hope you and family had a Happy turkey day and your nap was undisturbed.


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## leigh

theplowmeister said:


> I quit
> 
> I dont know if I explain it porley or "your" purposely miss understanding or just being a di_ _


I understand exactly what you're saying ! And I understand what others are saying. I'm known as an understanding type of guy Thumbs Up Carry on,you seem to be in full control of your operation! That being said, I think your guarantee is .……… never mind !


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## JT&SONS

Ok so off topic question would a straight blade be a better choice for my back up plow truck that's going to be mainly doing drives? I figure if the main truck goes down I can always put the Vblad on the backup truck.


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## cwren2472

JT&SONS said:


> Ok so off topic question would a straight blade be a better choice for my back up plow truck that's going to be mainly doing drives? I figure if the main truck goes down I can always put the Vblad on the backup truck.


Depends. If you are buying a used vehicle with a used straight blade already, sure, so long as the straight blade setup is compatible with whatever plow you have now. If you were buying a second truck and installing a new plow on it, the amount you are saving by downgrading to a straight blade probably isnt worth the savings.


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## JT&SONS

cwren2472 said:


> Depends. If you are buying a used vehicle with a used straight blade already, sure, so long as the straight blade setup is compatible with whatever plow you have now. If you were buying a second truck and installing a new plow on it, the amount you are saving by downgrading to a straight blade probably isnt worth the savings.


No the plow would be BN I don't like buying used equipment. Ok, i am going to get prices now.


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## Randall Ave

What did you end up getting for a truck?


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## JT&SONS

Well i think a 09 F250 with a 5.4 but my wife went and looked at it and it sounds like it had a exhaust manifold leak. So looks like might be out of luck again. The truck is 200 miles from me she so happened to be close to this place and went and looked at it for me. The guy on the phone said exhaust was fine but from what i could hear i don't think so.

If this storm keeps tracking south I will have something tomorrow plow will go on tomorrow night. I love my DEALER! Best dealer around.

Price is for straight super duty poly is 4850 OTD price for another DXT would be 6100 OTD

My other dilemma long story short had the water pump replaced on the 6.0 today. Ford dealer called and said you have a head light out. I said how much to fix. They quoted 125.00 i laughed said i will do it. They said ok. Get trick back headlight fixed and not charged at all. So look im as honest as they come so i want to call and at least pay for the part but im worried they will fire the tech or doc his pay for not telling them he did it. What should i do?


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## cwren2472

JT&SONS said:


> Price is for straight super duty poly is 4850 OTD price for another DXT would be 6100 OTD


Both very good prices. Still recommend the V. Otherwise, every time you had to use the backup plow you'll say "Ugh, I gotta use the straight blade again, this sucks"

Plus, assuming you have a DXT already, you'll never need to buy separate cutting edges, controllers, etc for the backup plow


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## Randall Ave

If your getting another plow, get the same one, interchangeable trucks/plows.


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## JMHConstruction

Just take the headlight as a gift, and let it go. Our GM dealer does stuff like that all the time for my wife's car. I couldn't figure out how to remove her headlight go get to the bulb, so I took it in. Guy did it in the parking lot in about 15 minutes, so we didn't have to pay a service fee.


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## cwren2472

Uh, $125 to swap out a halogen bulb? WTF?


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## Mark Oomkes

cwren2472 said:


> Uh, $125 to swap out a halogen bulb? WTF?


You're going to raise your prices?


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## JT&SONS

Ok, so once again i am sick to my stomach from nerves. I am right on the line of 2-6 or 6-14 yeah I know right they can't narrow it down any better than this. Just 80 Miles northeast of me its snowing 2in an hr and power outages already wind is blowing 30-50mph. I'm going to be totally honest this is the type of storm that is for you seasoned vets not some rookie like me. But i don't have a choice its go time in about 4-6hrs We won't see another storm like this for 10 years. It just doesn't happen like this especially this early.

I know as well people are gonna want say I told you so and I honestly will take any ribbing anything at a later date but right now I need advice. I am located by the yellow dot in the picture. The second picture is the big picture

So anyway I could use some real advice tips anything to help someone new that's never dealt with these conditions before unless it was on sled boon-docking through the UP .

anything like so do you wait when its blizzard conditions out? Thankfully I only have one property that has to be open by 6 am and if it's this bad there is no way the daycare will be open.

Should I pre-salt its pouring down rain no way I can do that now so if so when should I start?

So please if anyone can think of anything to help me calm down and feel little more prepared it would greatly be appreciated


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## LapeerLandscape

JT&SONS said:


> Ok, so once again i am sick to my stomach from nerves. I am right on the line of 2-6 or 6-14 yeah I know right they can't narrow it down any better than this. Just 80 Miles northeast of me its snowing 2in an hr and power outages already wind is blowing 30-50mph. I'm going to be totally honest this is the type of storm that is for you seasoned vets not some rookie like me. But i don't have a choice its go time in about 4-6hrs We won't see another storm like this for 10 years. It just doesn't happen like this especially this early.
> 
> I know as well people are gonna want say I told you so and I honestly will take any ribbing anything at a later date but right now I need advice. I am located by the yellow dot in the picture. The second picture is the big picture
> 
> So anyway I could use some real advice tips anything to help someone new that's never dealt with these conditions before unless it was on sled boon-docking through the UP .
> 
> anything like so do you wait when its blizzard conditions out? Thankfully I only have one property that has to be open by 6 am and if it's this bad there is no way the daycare will be open.
> 
> Should I pre-salt its pouring down rain no way I can do that now so if so when should I start?
> 
> So please if anyone can think of anything to help me calm down and feel little more prepared it would greatly be appreciated
> 
> View attachment 186682
> 
> 
> View attachment 186684


Look at it this way, you could get just 2". Dont always think your going to get the most because a lot of the times you dont.


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## JT&SONS

LapeerLandscape said:


> Look at it this way, you could get just 2". Dont always think your going to get the most because a lot of the times you dont.


I try to tell myself that. Even had myself convinced that was the case they have switched this storm 20 times since last night. One second its nothing next second it blizzard warning. Thanks for chiming in.


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## Ajlawn1

Rule of thumb is when they call for 8-12" divide that by 2... 12"+ divide by 1.5... and if they're calling for a inch take it times 4...


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## Randall Ave

JT&SONS said:


> I try to tell myself that. Even had myself convinced that was the case they have switched this storm 20 times since last night. One second its nothing next second it blizzard warning. Thanks for chiming in.


Relax, it's just snow. You will make yourself so sick you will not be able to function. We have all been there. Make sure everything, and everyone is ready to go. You will be fine.


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## jomama45

I've been doing this for more than 20 years now, I've lived through 24" plus actual blizzards a few times, storms where we plowed 30+ hours without rest, and ice storms that came out of no where. Here's the best advice I can give you: Don't worry about, it won't help a bit. Worrying never melted snow or pushed it off of a lot. Who cares what's happening 80 miles away? 2" per hour? Been there (nothing beats thunder snow at 3-5" per hour), done that, it sucks, but it always worked out one way or the other. People that are gonna be mad are gonna be mad, let them go. Look at the bright side, you'll likely be getting 2" of snow or less. 

THe hardest part is going to be dealing with what I assume is a rain to snow transition. I'm assuming it's going to be no big deal though as the pavement temps won't be cold enough for freeze instantly.

Good luck, and remember, snow is temporary and not worth loosing weeks/months off of your life over worrying about..........


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## LapeerLandscape

JT&SONS said:


> I try to tell myself that. Even had myself convinced that was the case they have switched this storm 20 times since last night. One second its nothing next second it blizzard warning. Thanks for chiming in.


A little forecasted snow isnt worth getting worked up over. Wait till your backhoe quits halfway through the first push of the years first major storm while your waiting for parts for another plow thats all tore apart across the shop floor.


----------



## Randall Ave

LapeerLandscape said:


> A little forecasted snow isnt worth getting worked up over. Wait till your backhoe quits halfway through the first push of the years first major storm while your waiting for parts for another plow thats all tore apart across the shop floor.


When you're girlfriend tells you she's late. And your wife tells you she's late, the same week. That's when you worry.


----------



## jomama45

One more thing, don't for the local weather's attempt at creating high drama reality TV ratings over nothing. They try to create mass hysteria, bread shelf clearing antics, to boost viewership and ratings. In short, their idiots. 

In my early days, as hard as it is to believe, we watched the news to see if we "might" get some snow every day. Then, we'd simply get up every hour or two and look out the window. When it snowed, we plowed it, salted afterwards, and everyone was happy. Technology and un-realistic expectations have made this whole industry far more complicated than it ever needed to be..........


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## John_DeereGreen

Seriously...a light drink wouldn’t hurt...not enough to even get a buzz but to calm you down...

Worrying won’t help anything. Relax. Make sure your stuff is as ready as it can be and go plow snow. Yes, people will *****. Yes, things will go wrong. Just do your best. Storms like this are when it’s nice to have either a spare truck, or light routes, so you’ve got more equipment than needed.


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## Ajlawn1

Randall Ave said:


> When you're girlfriend tells you she's late. And your wife tells you she's late, the same week. That's when you worry.


No that's unprotected double worry free fun for nine months...


----------



## BossPlow2010

John_DeereGreen said:


> Seriously...a light drink wouldn't hurt...not enough to even get a buzz but to calm you down...
> 
> Worrying won't help anything. Relax. Make sure your stuff is as ready as it can be and go plow snow. Yes, people will *****. Yes, things will go wrong. Just do your best. Storms like this are when it's nice to have either a spare truck, or light routes, so you've got more equipment than needed.


Bourbon, fireball, Cc and coke, as long as it's not a ****ty ipa


----------



## LapeerLandscape

Randall Ave said:


> When you're girlfriend tells you she's late. And your wife tells you she's late, the same week. That's when you worry.


Sounds like a Jerry Springer episode.


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## Mark Oomkes

Not worth salting if its raining.


----------



## WIPensFan

jomama45 said:


> I've been doing this for more than 20 years now, I've lived through 24" plus actual blizzards a few times, storms where we plowed 30+ hours without rest, and ice storms that came out of no where. Here's the best advice I can give you: Don't worry about, it won't help a bit. Worrying never melted snow or pushed it off of a lot. Who cares what's happening 80 miles away? 2" per hour? Been there (nothing beats thunder snow at 3-5" per hour), done that, it sucks, but it always worked out one way or the other. People that are gonna be mad are gonna be mad, let them go. Look at the bright side, you'll likely be getting 2" of snow or less.
> 
> THe hardest part is going to be dealing with what I assume is a rain to snow transition. I'm assuming it's going to be no big deal though as the pavement temps won't be cold enough for freeze instantly.
> 
> Good luck, and remember, snow is temporary and not worth loosing weeks/months off of your life over worrying about..........


Have you always plowed for yourself or for an employer? Or do you have your own business with employees? Reason I ask is because my main stress was always employees. Not their work, but will I be able to get ahold of them or will they show up. Or will there small 2-wheel drive car make it to the shop through 10" of wet snow. I've had to go pick them up at their residence before...like I have nothing else to worry about.


----------



## JT&SONS

jomama45 said:


> I've been doing this for more than 20 years now, I've lived through 24" plus actual blizzards a few times, storms where we plowed 30+ hours without rest, and ice storms that came out of no where. Here's the best advice I can give you: Don't worry about, it won't help a bit. Worrying never melted snow or pushed it off of a lot. Who cares what's happening 80 miles away? 2" per hour? Been there (nothing beats thunder snow at 3-5" per hour), done that, it sucks, but it always worked out one way or the other. People that are gonna be mad are gonna be mad, let them go. Look at the bright side, you'll likely be getting 2" of snow or less.
> 
> THe hardest part is going to be dealing with what I assume is a rain to snow transition. I'm assuming it's going to be no big deal though as the pavement temps won't be cold enough for freeze instantly.
> 
> Good luck, and remember, snow is temporary and not worth loosing weeks/months off of your life over worrying about..........


Dang that's good advice. Thanks for taking the time to right this out.


----------



## Randall Ave

WIPensFan said:


> Have you always plowed for yourself or for an employer? Or do you have your own business with employees? Reason I ask is because my main stress was always employees. Not their work, but will I be able to get ahold of them or will they show up. Or will there small 2-wheel drive car make it to the shop through 10" of wet snow. I've had to go pick them up at their residence before...like I have nothing else to worry about.


Like when they take a plow truck home before a storm. Then are a no show. Cause he's in the graybar hotel.


----------



## JT&SONS

WIPensFan said:


> Have you always plowed for yourself or for an employer? Or do you have your own business with employees? Reason I ask is because my main stress was always employees. Not their work, but will I be able to get ahold of them or will they show up. Or will there small 2-wheel drive car make it to the shop through 10" of wet snow. I've had to go pick them up at their residence before...like I have nothing else to worry about.


This is my first year and yes part of it is the help i have 7 guys lined up and we will quickly find out who shows up. Could he good or bad but there either family or close friend. First big event if it happens. Did the first storm with my 2 boys and me.


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## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not worth salting if its raining.


It's supposed sleet and ice before going to snow. So wasn't sure if i should get some salt down in that transition. When it switches to all snow it supposed to be thunder snow at 2in a hr. Im going to be honest im 42 and there has only been 2 times they have made it point to say it will be thunders now. I don't even know what thunder snow is.


----------



## the Suburbanite

JT&SONS said:


> It's supposed sleet and ice before going to snow. So wasn't sure if i should get some salt down in that transition. When it switches to all snow it supposed to be thunder snow at 2in a hr. Im going to be honest im 42 and there has only been 2 times they have made it point to say it will be thunders now. I don't even know what thunder snow is.


Like plowing on the 4th of July, with snow.


----------



## Randall Ave

JT&SONS said:


> It's supposed sleet and ice before going to snow. So wasn't sure if i should get some salt down in that transition. When it switches to all snow it supposed to be thunder snow at 2in a hr. Im going to be honest im 42 and there has only been 2 times they have made it point to say it will be thunders now. I don't even know what thunder snow is.


Did you get truck #2 up and running yet?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> It's supposed sleet and ice before going to snow. So wasn't sure if i should get some salt down in that transition. When it switches to all snow it supposed to be thunder snow at 2in a hr. Im going to be honest im 42 and there has only been 2 times they have made it point to say it will be thunders now. I don't even know what thunder snow is.


Just bend over and kiss your *** goodbye if it starts with the thundersnow...lol.

It's actually pretty cool. Purple, green, white flashes...I've see all those. And then the lights go out because it's snowing so hard.


----------



## Randall Ave

Mark Oomkes said:


> Just bend over and kiss your *** goodbye if it starts with the thundersnow...lol.
> 
> It's actually pretty cool. Purple, green, white flashes...I've see all those. And then the lights go out because it's snowing so hard.


Your going to scare the be Jesus out of him.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Randall Ave said:


> Your going to scare the be Jesus out of him.


Oops


----------



## Randall Ave

Mark Oomkes said:


> Oops


You were laughing as you typed that.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Randall Ave said:


> You were laughing as you typed that.


Anything is possible...just wanted to make sure he was prepared...its surprised the crap out of me more than once. Especially the green and purple flashes.


----------



## JT&SONS

Randall Ave said:


> Did you get truck #2 up and running yet?


No went to buy it and it had a cracked manifold had to walk away. They would not fix it. Said they were taking it to auction. Im still pissed i had my wife go look at sales men assured me it was fine. So wasted all day yesterday thinking i had a truck then come to find out it had a cracked manifold .it was a 2009 f250 5.4 with 92k.


----------



## Randall Ave

Ford like to have exhaust manifold leaks. Studs are small, they rot and break. Actually not that bad of a fix.


----------



## JT&SONS

Randall Ave said:


> Ford like to have exhaust manifold leaks. Studs are small, they rot and break. Actually not that bad of a fix.


I calledmy local dealer and to do both sides was going to cost 1650.00 this place wouldn't budge.


----------



## Randall Ave

JT&SONS said:


> I calledmy local dealer and to do both sides was going to cost 1650.00 this place wouldn't budge.


I'm not charging enough money.


----------



## JT&SONS

Mark Oomkes said:


> Anything is possible...just wanted to make sure he was prepared...its surprised the crap out of me more than once. Especially the green and purple flashes.


From the looks of this storm its headed right your way. I would think with the wind it would fire up the snow machine and if close enough you would get some LES.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

JT&SONS said:


> No went to buy it and it had a cracked manifold had to walk away. They would not fix it. Said they were taking it to auction. Im still pissed i had my wife go look at sales men assured me it was fine. So wasted all day yesterday thinking i had a truck then come to find out it had a cracked manifold .it was a 2009 f250 5.4 with 92k.


What were they asking for it?


----------



## JT&SONS

Randall Ave said:


> I'm not charging enough money.


What would you charge they quoted passenger side at 1050 and drivers side 600. Still not sure why?


----------



## JT&SONS

John_DeereGreen said:


> What were they asking for it?


10,888 
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/200549367526178/


----------



## JT&SONS

What do you guys think about this one? Has a few more miles then i would think the vortex 6.0s have to be cheap to replace. This is close by figured if I got in a pinch tomorrow could be to the dealer and home in 45 mins with this truck.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/280797469236568/


----------



## EWSplow

JT&SONS said:


> What would you charge they quoted passenger side at 1050 and drivers side 600. Still not sure why?


Are both manifolds bad? Typically, the passenger side leaks 1st. Can't remember what I paid to have both replaced.


----------



## EWSplow

JT&SONS said:


> What do you guys think about this one? Has a few more miles then i would think the vortex 6.0s have to be cheap to replace. This is close by figured if I got in a pinch tomorrow could be to the dealer and home in 45 mins with this truck.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/280797469236568/


That's a decent deal if it's that clean. 
I've got an 06. Not as clean, rusted rockers and 37k more miles.


----------



## JT&SONS

EWSplow said:


> That's a decent deal if it's that clean.
> I've got an 06. Not as clean, rusted rockers and 37k more miles.


It looks real clean in the pictures. Was going to go look at it tomorrow.

Here is better pictures.

https://www.superiorautosaleschenoa.com/mobile/mdetails.aspx?vid=24890828


----------



## EWSplow

JT&SONS said:


> It looks real clean in the pictures. Was going to go look at it tomorrow.
> 
> Here is better pictures.
> 
> https://www.superiorautosaleschenoa.com/mobile/mdetails.aspx?vid=24890828


Nice truck. Get on that one. 
I prefer to not have push button 4wd, but that's just me.
Also, I saw a really nice western v plow on Chicago craigslist. @Philbilly2 probably has a truckside mount for that truck and plow combo.


----------



## JT&SONS

EWSplow said:


> Nice truck. Get on that one.
> I prefer to not have push button 4wd, but that's just me.
> Also, I saw a really nice western v plow on Chicago craigslist. @Philbilly2 probably has a truckside mount for that truck and plow combo.


I was hoping to stay boss since i bought a DXT that way i could use them on either truck. What's your thoughts

Anything i should look closely at when i look at the truck? I know fords a lot better then i do chevy. What kind of life expectancy out well taken care of 6.0?


----------



## EWSplow

JT&SONS said:


> I was hoping to stay boss since i bought a DXT that way i could use them on either truck. What's your thoughts
> 
> Anything i should look closely at when i look at the truck? I know fords a lot better then i do chevy. What kind of life expectancy out well taken care of 6.0?


Good point on the boss plow. Stick with boss. With the popularity of that body style Chevy, finding a used push beam would be easy.
Chevy exhaust manifold bolts break too.lol
Look at the front suspension, tie rod ends, U joints etc. Check for burnt tranny fluid. The usual stuff.
Was that a long box? Ad read "standard box". My extended cab with a long box is too long for small lots IMO.
I'm pretty sure someone replaced the rocker panels, but could be wrong.
You should get another 100k miles on the 6.0 without any major problems.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

JT&SONS said:


> 10,888
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/200549367526178/


That doesn't seem too far out of line if it's in good shape minus the manifolds.


----------



## kimber750

WIPensFan said:


> Or will there small 2-wheel drive car make it to the shop through 10" of wet snow. I've had to go pick them up at their residence before...like I have nothing else to worry about.


Why are you waiting until there is 10 inches of snow to start?


----------



## JT&SONS

EWSplow said:


> Good point on the boss plow. Stick with boss. With the popularity of that body style Chevy, finding a used push beam would be easy.
> Chevy exhaust manifold bolts break too.lol
> Look at the front suspension, tie rod ends, U joints etc. Check for burnt tranny fluid. The usual stuff.
> Was that a long box? Ad read "standard box". My extended cab with a long box is too long for small lots IMO.
> I'm pretty sure someone replaced the rocker panels, but could be wrong.
> You should get another 100k miles on the 6.0 without any major problems.


I thought the same thing it looks like it with the ridge in one of pics of the rockers. this guy has a lot of clean trucks on his lot. I wonder if he is having the work done in house then listing them. Is this something i should be alarmed about


----------



## kimber750

JT&SONS said:


> No went to buy it and it had a cracked manifold had to walk away. They would not fix it. Said they were taking it to auction. Im still pissed i had my wife go look at sales men assured me it was fine. So wasted all day yesterday thinking i had a truck then come to find out it had a cracked manifold .it was a 2009 f250 5.4 with 92k.


If you are only looking at used Fords, plan on doing manifolds at some point. I honestly have grown to love replacing manifolds. Not that bad and pays very well. Like Randal said they really are not that bad to do.


----------



## JT&SONS

Yeah i know that's a common problem. I just got a bad taste in my mouth when they almost seemed like they knew about the issue and was trying to pull over on me. The guy knew i was sending my wife since she happens to be 40 miles from the dealership and im 170 miles away. So i think well she won't catch it. But i told exactly what to look for listen for and she called me right away and said they sounds like they were leaking. I couldn't hear it on speaker phone so they recorded it with a iPhone and sent it to me. I could definitely tell there was something ticking but it was faint.

So i called the sales guy and asked him and he said o no that truck is good shape no leaks nothing i said ok i will have my wife take it to a mechanic to be checked out. He said no need then early next morning he knew i would have to catch the 9am train to make all this work he text me not even a call and told me the drivers side was cracked. So i called he didn't answer i asked if he would fix or take some cash off and he text back again not a call its going to the sale. So i walked away.

Now there is one more that just popped up and i think this is a real good deal. Well **** i think it's sold already

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/323905138198579/


----------



## wishfull

I have one almost identical to that one and guess what no rust on it either. It can be done just by keeping them clean. Check the underside of the doors as mine shows some rust there now. It's a hard place to get at with a pressure washer and usually gets missed. Standard box is 6' 6" not the full 8'.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Have you considered a new front line truck and delegating your current to backup or second truck duty? That would make more sense to me.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JT&SONS said:


> From the looks of this storm its headed right your way. I would think with the wind it would fire up the snow machine and if close enough you would get some LES.


Might get some lake enhancement, but the upper levels need to be cold enough for that. Not sure this storm has that. Thanks for the heads-up.


----------



## Philbilly2

John_DeereGreen said:


> Have you considered a new front line truck and delegating your current to backup or second truck duty? That would make more sense to me.


Or consider trying to find a "like series" of truck so all your parts are interchangeable...


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JT...if it makes you feel better I don't know what to do with this crap either. Its been snowing for 3 hours or so and still haven't actually hit our trigger.


----------



## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> JT...if it makes you feel better I don't know what to do with this crap either. Its been snowing for 3 hours or so and still haven't actually hit our trigger.


I might have 2" on my driveway... I have nut high drifts between my garage and shed... 

The wind is a nice stiff breeze.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> I might have 2" on my driveway... I have nut high drifts between my garage and shed...
> 
> The wind is a nice stiff breeze.


We've got a bit of breeze as well, but it's a warm breeze. Kinda weird.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

JT&SONS said:


> Ok, so once again i am sick to my stomach from nerves. I am right on the line of 2-6 or 6-14 yeah I know right they can't narrow it down any better than this. Just 80 Miles northeast of me its snowing 2in an hr and power outages already wind is blowing 30-50mph. I'm going to be totally honest this is the type of storm that is for you seasoned vets not some rookie like me. But i don't have a choice its go time in about 4-6hrs We won't see another storm like this for 10 years. It just doesn't happen like this especially this early.
> 
> I know as well people are gonna want say I told you so and I honestly will take any ribbing anything at a later date but right now I need advice. I am located by the yellow dot in the picture. The second picture is the big picture
> 
> So anyway I could use some real advice tips anything to help someone new that's never dealt with these conditions before unless it was on sled boon-docking through the UP .
> 
> anything like so do you wait when its blizzard conditions out? Thankfully I only have one property that has to be open by 6 am and if it's this bad there is no way the daycare will be open.
> 
> Should I pre-salt its pouring down rain no way I can do that now so if so when should I start?
> 
> So please if anyone can think of anything to help me calm down and feel little more prepared it would greatly be appreciated
> 
> View attachment 186682
> 
> 
> View attachment 186684


Just start plowing at your trigger amount and don't stop till the storm is done.

Doesn't matter if it's a 3" inch storm or a 3 foot storm.

You can't control the weather, you can't control the amounts, just plow.

Don't try to clear the whole place otherwise you will be there for the entire storm. 
With the big storms just take your time and just clear the roadways for emergency access and maybe a few parking spots -(I like to hit the handicap spots when I first get there and then before I leave)

As for pre-salting, don't bother if it's raining.

There was only 1 place I ever pre-salted and the reason was it was a hill going into it. 
Other than that, I don't pre-salt and wait till storm end.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

Randall Ave said:


> When you're girlfriend tells you she's late. And your wife tells you she's late, the same week. That's when you worry.


LMAO, I almost spewed my coffee all over my keyboard.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

JT&SONS said:


> It's supposed sleet and ice before going to snow. So wasn't sure if i should get some salt down in that transition. When it switches to all snow it supposed to be thunder snow at 2in a hr. Im going to be honest im 42 and there has only been 2 times they have made it point to say it will be thunders now. I don't even know what thunder snow is.


Just think of a rain storm with lightening and thunder but replace the rain with snow.

It's pretty cool, I have been in a few, 3am in the morning, snowing like crazy at a hotel I'm at and then BOOM, loud enough to wake the dead.

Then a lightening strike that took out a transformer and the whole place went dark.

Then a bloody huge tree came down right in front me, 2 seconds later and it would have been right on top of my truck.

Yeah that was a wild one.


----------



## JT&SONS

We ended up with 2in of the heaviest wet icy snow. Im so glad the brunt went north. This snow seems like to me its only good for breaking ****. Nothing else. We have 80k with out power around us and they are buried not to far from me. I might actually be able to get some fall clean ups done this week. Lol.


----------



## LapeerLandscape

JT&SONS said:


> We ended up with 2in of the heaviest wet icy snow. Im so glad the brunt went north. This snow seems like to me its only good for breaking ****. Nothing else. We have 80k with out power around us and they are buried not to far from me. I might actually be able to get some fall clean ups done this week. Lol.


2 inches isnt that what I said. Dont just look at the bigger number it very seldom gets there.
Now in Lapeer we did get the 6 inches or very close to it.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

LapeerLandscape said:


> 2 inches isnt that what I said. Dont just look at the bigger number it very seldom gets there.
> Now in Lapeer we did get the 6 inches or very close to it.


Sure...


----------



## Ajlawn1

LapeerLandscape said:


> Now in Lapeer we did get the 6 inches or very close to it.


Nobody knows where that is, so not sure it really matters...


----------



## Philbilly2

Ajlawn1 said:


> Nobody knows where that is, so not sure it really matters...


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Ajlawn1 said:


> Nobody knows where that is, so not sure it really matters...


Is it on a map?


----------



## JT&SONS

Ok so i have my back up truck now. Didn't really want a crew cab but tired of stressing.Got done plowing this morning headed straight to the dealer. 3 people showed up to drive the truck while i was there. Then a 4th person showed up as i was leaving to look at it. New if i left it was gonna sell.

Now need to get the plow on it.


----------



## Philbilly2

JT&SONS said:


> 3 people showed up to drive the truck while i was there. Then a 4th person showed up as i was leaving to look at it. New if i left it was gonna sell.
> View attachment 186728


Ever wonder what the dealer pays those guys to show up to get you to over pay?


----------



## BUFF

Philbilly2 said:


> Ever wonder what the dealer pays those guys to show up to get you to over pay?


I thought a similar things but they used the lot boys and service writers....


----------



## EWSplow

JT&SONS said:


> Ok so i have my back up truck now. Didn't really want a crew cab but tired of stressing.Got done plowing this morning headed straight to the dealer. 3 people showed up to drive the truck while i was there. Then a 4th person showed up as i was leaving to look at it. New if i left it was gonna sell.
> 
> Now need to get the plow on it.
> View attachment 186728


Nice.
Now everyone can quit harping on you to buy another truck. Good luck with it.


----------



## BUFF

EWSplow said:


> Nice.
> Now everyone can quit harping on you to buy another truck. Good luck with it.


It's all good till buyers remorse sets in as you find out you got hosed on the deal and looking at $4k of repairs........


----------



## Randall Ave

BUFF said:


> It's all good till buyers remorse sets in as you find out you got hosed on the deal and looking at $4k of repairs........


Hey now, I gots to eat tooooo.


----------



## jomama45

WIPensFan said:


> Have you always plowed for yourself or for an employer? Or do you have your own business with employees? Reason I ask is because my main stress was always employees. Not their work, but will I be able to get ahold of them or will they show up. Or will there small 2-wheel drive car make it to the shop through 10" of wet snow. I've had to go pick them up at their residence before...like I have nothing else to worry about.


Sorry, I forgot about this until now.

I've always been a subcontractor using my own equipment for snow, for about the last 20 years. I do have my own construction company though, with employees for the same length of time.

I've been plowing a route for my brother now for the last 7 or 8 years now, and occaisionally, he leaves, and he expects me to handle his mess. Not nearly as much as he did years ago, but it's a PITA none-the-less. He did have an accident in Jan. of 2010 where he spent a month in the hospital, so I was stuck managing his "mess" with about 8 or 9 snow employees at that time, as well as my own business and a second child due shortly. Even with his disorganized, motley crew of year-round and seasonal snow employees, I never worried much about them showing up to do their thing. Even less concern about it in my own company, I've been blessed with pretty darn good and dependable employees through this time.

I hnesty never fretted too much about snow, like I said, it's only temporary. My regular job is holding the bag over concrete and masonry jobs that are meant to last a lifetime plus. Trying to sleep when I have 500 yard plus machine base to pour at 4:30 the next morning, that could bankrupt me if it went wrong, always led to more stress to me than snow.......


----------



## jrodgers

JT&SONS said:


> I was hoping to stay boss since i bought a DXT that way i could use them on either truck. What's your thoughts
> 
> Anything i should look closely at when i look at the truck? I know fords a lot better then i do chevy. What kind of life expectancy out well taken care of 6.0?


Chevys don't have the FGVW that the Fords have IIRC. Plow might be a bit too heavy. +.02.


----------



## FredG

JT, You had me worried a little, you had the worst case of cold feet I seen in a while accept for the blowhards but I knew you would buy one. Get your plow on it and from there you will sleep better.

Looks like a nice truck till the floor panels, rockers and cab corners rust and rot. Not a big thing you can do it in your shop with air chisel and shears. We always used a mig but I guess there is other welding options.

The 6.0 is a great motor and is known for reliability and longevity. Once you got time in the GM you will want to trade the turd, oops that's Furd. :laugh: Good Luck and push forward. Thumbs Up


----------



## JT&SONS

FredG said:


> JT, You had me worried a little, you had the worst case of cold feet I seen in a while accept for the blowhards but I knew you would buy one. Get your plow on it and from there you will sleep better.
> 
> Looks like a nice truck till the floor panels, rockers and cab corners rust and rot. Not a big thing you can do it in your shop with air chisel and shears. We always used a mig but I guess there is other welding options.
> 
> The 6.0 is a great motor and is known for reliability and longevity. Once you got time in the GM you will want to trade the turd, oops that's Furd. :laugh: Good Luck and push forward. Thumbs Up


Thanks Fred I've always been one to look for the best deal. My main problem was flipping back and forth between 3/4 ton and 1 ton dump. But i totally agree i already feel a little more at ease just knowing i have a 2nd truck working. I seriously underestimated the amount of time it takes to do snow. Things like traffic people driving slow and in the way that doesn't happen in lawn care. Another thing i learned even though it was only a couple people. With snow people are inpatient everyone wants to be first. With mowing they could care less.

Another thing i learned was a rain storm doesn't make me puke. But a snow storm does.

Im still torn on Vplow vs straight there 1300.00 difference in cost the 2nd truck im planning on being the residental truck and help out on commercial when needed.

With out opening a can of worms what's wrong with the EXT? I know you guess say it was a failure but why? Cause I've considered buying a wideout but i just don't think that would be wise to have different plow brands. But a wideout EXT seems like the best option for the 2nd truck. I could be totally wrong here. Thanks for your time.


----------



## Randall Ave

Isn't there threads on the EXTs? Failures.


----------



## BUFF

Randall Ave said:


> Isn't there threads on the EXTs? Failures.


Thought the threads were about EXT's being game changers, bet Boss is offering some pretty sweet deals on EXT's and Cube's as package deals.....


----------



## JT&SONS

Randall Ave said:


> Isn't there threads on the EXTs? Failures.


Could you link a couple please?


----------



## FredG

I'm not sure on the dirt on the EXT, My nephew has one and likes it. Anyway if your intention is to use it on driveways I would be more concerned with a pull behind when financially possible. Straight blade would be fine with a pull behind.

I mean if you want a Vee or a wide out would not hurt.


----------



## BUFF

JT&SONS said:


> Could you link a couple please?


Here's a lesson in Fishing....... Use the search function to find specific topics in threads.










And all these pop up


----------



## JT&SONS

BUFF said:


> Here's a lesson in Fishing....... Use the search function to find specific topics in threads.
> 
> View attachment 186766
> 
> 
> And all these pop up
> 
> View attachment 186767


This is what pops up when i use it. I guess maybe im doing something wrong.


----------



## BUFF

JT&SONS said:


> This is what pops up when i use it. I guess maybe im doing something wrong.
> View attachment 186771


Sometimes you have change bait if they're not biting.......

For cits and gigity's I searched using my eyeFone and got the same results as my PC.
Try clicking the search titles only box


----------



## EWSplow

JT&SONS said:


> This is what pops up when i use it. I guess maybe im doing something wrong.
> View attachment 186771


Search under the boss plow threads


----------



## JT&SONS

FredG said:


> I'm not sure on the dirt on the EXT, My nephew has one and likes it. Anyway if your intention is to use it on driveways I would be more concerned with a pull behind when financially possible. Straight blade would be fine with a pull behind.
> 
> I mean if you want a Vee or a wide out would not hurt.


I originally planned on a boss drag pro. Even ordered a 16ft its in now. The cost of it is 5k installed OTD Then when i made my first run it seems like to me it will be very hard to maneuver around with a front and back blade on. So I thought I better just add another front blade. My budget allows me to purchase one more blade either front or back not both. I will take your guys advice and buy whichever you guys think I should. Y'all know better then I do. The HOA I do the whole road is 5ft more narrow than a standard road. Was my main concern in maneuverability


----------



## JT&SONS

EWSplow said:


> Search under the boss plow threads


Ok i will try that makes sense.


----------



## FredG

I'm not sure on the dirt on the EXT, My nephew has one and likes it. Anyway if your intention is to use it on driveways I would be more concerned with a pull behind when financially possible. Straight blade would be fine with a pull behind.

I mean if you want a Vee or a wide out would not hurt. Nevermind, posted twice.  :hammerhead:


----------



## BUFF

FredG said:


> I'm not sure on the dirt on the EXT, My nephew has one and likes it. Anyway if your intention is to use it on driveways I would be more concerned with a pull behind when financially possible. Straight blade would be fine with a pull behind.
> 
> I mean if you want a Vee or a wide out would not hurt. Nevermind, posted twice.  :hammerhead:


I think you've had enough for the day, time to pack up Elsie and head home.......


----------



## Philbilly2

I personally would start with the pull plow on the Chevy and your V on your ford if you are worried about length of the whole setup as I would be in the cases of the rigs you have.

Get the mount and wiring on the front Chevy so you have a backup that can hook to your vee until you decide on what plow.

Have the guy in the Chevy pulling all the drives out and the ford pushing the piles down up in the yard.

First 2 years of my career plowing was in a day cab Chevy with nothing but a Daniels box plow dragging town home drives out to the main run...
:hammerhead:


----------



## JT&SONS

Philbilly2 said:


> I personally would start with the pull plow on the Chevy and your V on your ford if you are worried about length of the whole setup as I would be in the cases of the rigs you have.
> 
> Get the mount and wiring on the front Chevy so you have a backup that can hook to your vee until you decide on what plow.
> 
> Have the guy in the Chevy pulling all the drives out and the ford pushing the piles down up in the yard.
> 
> First 2 years of my career plowing was in a day cab Chevy with nothing but a Daniels box plow dragging town home drives out to the main run...
> :hammerhead:


I'm listening... So my thought was the 2500 would start doing residential as I worked the commercials together. Then we would tackle residentals on separate routes. But you guys have way more experience soi will follow the consensus of this board. Especially when it comes to having 2 trucks. Heck im not even sure i know how manage 1 truck


----------



## BUFF

JT&SONS said:


> I'm listening... So my thought was the 2500 would start doing residential as I worked the commercials together. Then we would tackle residentals on separate routes. But you guys have way more experience soi will follow the consensus of this board. Especially when it comes to having 2 trucks. Heck im not even sure i know how manage 1 truck


PBz suggestion is sound advice and having 2 rigs running in tandem will blow through the work quickly


----------



## Philbilly2

The issue I think you will find is that a double cab with a plow on the front and a box on the rear gets a bit long for a driveway rig. Even more if cars are parked anywhere around you. Think of the old game "operation" but with a 30 foot plus rig.

Even an cab and a half truck with the same set up is a bit on the lengthy side at times. It is often not even as much the length, but more the wheel base. 

When you hang plows on the front and back, your productivity is going to decrease on residential. Same concept of delivering a TV in a semi vs a box truck

I used to do a crap box of town homes as a driver for a guy and the drag trucks were the low man job, but man did they boost production.

I wish that guy I plowed for had inverted blowers on tractors after learning about them threw the years, but we did alright.


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> I think you've had enough for the day, time to pack up Elsie and head home.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay Barney.
> View attachment 186793


----------



## MSsnowplowing

JT&SONS said:


> Im still torn on Vplow vs straight there 1300.00 difference in cost the 2nd truck im planning on being the residental truck and help out on commercial when needed..


A V plow can be a straight blade but a straight blade can never be a V plow-(unless you wrap it around a tree)

Having used a straight for quite a few years I switched to a V plow 3 years ago and after that first season I wanted to kick myself for not having gotten one sooner.

I found sites that say took 1 hour to plow with a straight I could get done in 30-45 minutes.

As for the wideouts, they are better in large lots for moving more snow roughly they can save you about 10 to 15 minutes more time in large lots but not as good for tight spots and that can add to the time.

We got hit with a 3 foot storm a few years back, it was bad, a few places I couldn't get too until the storm was done.

With the V, I just dropped it and went thru 3 feet of snow pushing it to each side, roughly about about 425 feet just going straight, then went up each side, it took me about 55 minutes to clear the area and push back 3 feet of snow.

I tried to do that with a straight blade and only 2 feet of snow same place a few years before that 3 foot storm and it took me about 1 and 30 minutes to clear that area.

So that is my experience between straight and V.

If you can afford the V plow go for it.

Edit: 
Try to get the same brand so you can swap the plows between the trucks. 
So just in case one plow goes down you can hook up and use the other.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

MSsnowplowing said:


> but not as good for tight spots and that can add to the time.


Huh?


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## JMHConstruction

If you ever add a third truck, get a regular cab long bed. You'll save money with the cab, and will be more user friendly for plowing (long bed for salter).

With so many residential customers, I like @Philbilly2 suggestion for the back blade. Bottom line, look at your route, and think about future routes, what will save you the most time, accomplish the most work, and most of all, make you the most money.


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Huh?


 What you doing up? Don't tell me you had some bad meatloaf like I did for lunch. Got home about 2:30 PM and fell a sleep. Be time to go to work before I fall a sleep.


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## JMHConstruction

Mark Oomkes said:


> Huh?


Shouldn't you be plowing, or did that go south of you?


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## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> If you ever add a third truck, get a regular cab long bed. You'll save money with the cab, and will be more user friendly for plowing (long bed for salter).
> 
> With so many residential customers, I like @Philbilly2 suggestion for the back blade. Bottom line, look at your route, and think about future routes, what will save you the most time, accomplish the most work, and most of all, make you the most money.


 Your up to? Must be up with the baby.


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## JMHConstruction

FredG said:


> Your up to? Must be up with the baby.


My nights and day are screwed up. I'm waiting for her to wake up again so my wife can get some rest. I slept for about 9 hours today (finally!), and she has been taking care of the baby for about 3 days by herself.


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## MSsnowplowing

Mark Oomkes said:


> Huh?


I do a lot of hotels and the guests like to park not next to each other but every other space it seems.

So I use the v in scoop and just go in between them one push forward and done.

With straight it's two passes, angle to the right push forward, back up angle to the left push forward.

one or two not too bad, make it 10 or more and it adds to the time for a straight blade.


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## Mark Oomkes

MSsnowplowing said:


> I do a lot of hotels and the guests like to park not next to each other but every other space it seems.
> 
> So I use the v in scoop and just go in between them one push forward and done.
> 
> With straight it's two passes, angle to the right push forward, back up angle to the left push forward.
> 
> one or two not too bad, make it 10 or more and it adds to the time for a straight blade.


We don't plow single spaces. Too much potential for damage.


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## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> What you doing up? Don't tell me you had some bad meatloaf like I did for lunch. Got home about 2:30 PM and fell a sleep. Be time to go to work before I fall a sleep.


EPIC lake effect. Not...


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## Mark Oomkes

JMHConstruction said:


> Shouldn't you be plowing, or did that go south of you?


NWS was right for once. Less than an inch yesterday, less than half an inch overnight.

Less than 1/10 of an inch.


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## MSsnowplowing

Mark Oomkes said:


> We don't plow single spaces. Too much potential for damage.


Only I do it and only during clean ups, not during a storm.


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## Mark Oomkes

MSsnowplowing said:


> Only I do it and only during clean ups, not during a storm.


I make mistakes, slip on ice, misjudge distances...during and after storms.


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## EWSplow

Mark Oomkes said:


> We don't plow single spaces. Too much potential for damage.


I do that with the jeep, but its like 5-8" in scoop. No room for error with an 8' low in scoop and it takes far to long.


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> I make mistakes, slip on ice, misjudge distances...during and after storms.


 Ditto, never plowed between cars, even when asked too I refused. Possible damage but time factor too.


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## MSsnowplowing

Knock on wood has not happened to me, and it depends on the situation and the space between the cars. 

My plow is 7 foot wide when in scoop so as long as I have at least a foot clearance on either side if I do it. No clearance, no plow. 

For the time factor, I factor in my pricing for clean up.

To each his own for the level of comfort when plowing, I know one guy that leaves a 2 foot space near cars when plowing and another who does it inches from the cars. Me I like a 1 ft clearance.


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## BUFF

MSsnowplowing said:


> To each his own for the level of comfort when plowing, I know one guy that leaves a 2 foot space near cars when plowing and another who does it inches from the cars. Me I like a 1 ft clearance.


2' is what I go with to avoid any BS


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## EWSplow

BUFF said:


> 2' is what I go with to avoid any BS


When I see a car illegally parked overnight in commercial lots I plow, I stay 2' away, but windrow toward the car, rather than away from it...people skills.


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## kimber750

Our contracts state 3 open spaces for us to plow them. This is because not all of our lots are flat. Even with the 3 space rule we have still had some very close calls. Very unsettling when you start sliding sideways towards a parked car. One time had to stop and salt all around my tires to keep from sliding into a car.


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## BUFF

kimber750 said:


> Our contracts state 3 open spaces for us to plow them. This is because not all of our lots are flat. Even with the 3 space rule we have still had some very close calls. Very unsettling when you start sliding sideways towards a parked car. One time had to stop and salt all around my tires to keep from sliding into a car.


You need to install a couple bow and stern thrusters on the pickup.....


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