# Loader VS backhoes for pushing box plows??



## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

Just looking for comment from those with more experience.
We started using backhoes about 12 years ago to push snow at a couple of our big places. Trucks do the finesse stuff, hoes do the heavy lifting and bulldozing. Only get 3-8 plows a year here. Our system works very efficiently for the properties we have.
So buying used case 580s in the 40K range, keeping for 5 years and selling and hooking them up to avalanche or other decent brand 12' boxes have worked very very well. But....always looking for better ways, and love diesel iron.

Anyway, i see most guys now running the smaller loaders. Got to say i like them and kind of want one. Not sure it makes business sense but open to ideas

They turn tighter etc, but if a 580m pushes a 12 box no isssue with an experienced operator, how big a loader would do the same. HP and weight.... just keep it the same?
The used hoes are fairly easy to find in decent shape and then resell before too tired for minimum loss other than tying up the $ to hold them. I have started shopping for loaders and seems they are way pricer lb for lb and hp to hp. Also harder to find.
In a perfect world a cat or deere with a metal pless would be ideal, but not in the cards. Looking at what kind of loader I can get to replace one hoe, and see how it goes. Any comments, tips, pros or cons would be appreciated. Anyone sorry they went with a loader over a hoe. Or done the switch and seen huge measurable results? Not condos or really tight stuff. Most is open big box type lots and industrial open lots.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I've never used a backhoe for snow...the idea really interests me, because they can be had in your example a lot more reasonably, and also on winter rentals, than a wheel loader.

For what it's worth, my former business partner has a 244J that was new 3 winters ago, and the lease is up in November, and he's not replacing it with another. He says he'd rather put a big skid steer on it's 12' box, and I think the same way.

If we saw more 12" plus snows, it would be a much different story. But only having 4-6" average snows, it's not worth double the cost.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Used a hoe long time ago hated it 
We have skids and compact wheel loaders 
Wheel loaders push snow back further and stack higher 
Skids turn tighter


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

Interesting, appreciate the comments.
Just been doing some looking and a sweet little loader with forks would be great. Push the box around, drop it and do curb cleans and stacking, and handy in the yard in off months.
BUT... I stand to be corrected but weight and Hp are what you want...and using my 
case 580super m it weights about 16000lbs, has 90hp and roads at 25mph
Easy to buy uses and easy to sell used.
I have been researching loaders and most that seem to be common for snow 
cat 906 is 68hp, 11 000 lbs, and roads at 12-20mph
jd 244 is 60hp 12 000 lbs and roads at 18mph
(Just specs off the internet, dont hold me to them due to models etc but think they are close)
So, less weight, less hp,lower road speed if i get a compact loader
BUT better vis, better turning, easier stacking and they look cool etc haha

Want one, just not seeing the magic of why they are so popular? 
We do run a 10' box on bobcat and it doesnt have the 2 speed. OMG does that suck its like slow motion haha.
So i do want a loader, just for the price diff and the lower speeds, hp and weight....dont get why i want it.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I would think a 16K 90 HP machine would play and laugh with a 12' pusher on it?


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

Actually its beautiful. It is amazing the amount of snow you can push. Where we are most snows are 2-5 inches max. When we do get the heavy stuff or 5" plus, just keep it moving and clearing with the storm and never a problem. Not as sexy as an ag tractor with power sides on the plow or a loader with fancy hla or metalpless but a fraction of the cost and for less than 10 work events annually maybe best to just stick with what we have but still like the loaders. Going to the bigger HP loaders now makes road driving and moving around in busy lots riskier. Just like the comments, food for thought. We have 10 months to adjust the fleet, just like learning and fine tuning.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

My skids with snow tires push 12 box with the storm 
Also with my compact wheel loader I use a 12 they are 12-14k pound machines 
Upgrading to a 14 foot pusher


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

ponyboy said:


> My skids with snow tires push 12 box with the storm
> Also with my compact wheel loader I use a 12 they are 12-14k pound machines
> Upgrading to a 14 foot pusher


What size loader? 14' pusher no worries? That would be perfect just didnt know that small a machine could do that. In fact kind of thought a 12' box would be really pushing it. Didnt want to spend a fortune and find out i painted myself into a corner with regrets.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Loader weight 12,000 other is 14,000
My places are flat and easy and we plow with storm


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

Our first yr running a large site I had a 410 JD... it moved snow! However in the summer it was too big for what we do... so I sold it and made $$... at the same site for 2 seasons we ran our Kubota SVL90 track loader with 10 footer it does fine just slow!! This yr we put our Kubota M59 in with the 10 footer and it's much faster tho works Alittle harder on heavy wet stuff... we also run a M108 tractor with a 12 footer.. my issue with the M108 is it sits for 8 months a year!! I hate equipment sitting... so my vote is keep the backhoe and run it yr round...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

rick W said:


> Actually its beautiful. It is amazing the amount of snow you can push. Where we are most snows are 2-5 inches max. When we do get the heavy stuff or 5" plus, just keep it moving and clearing with the storm and never a problem. Not as sexy as an ag tractor with power sides on the plow or a loader with fancy hla or metalpless but a fraction of the cost and for less than 10 work events annually maybe best to just stick with what we have but still like the loaders. Going to the bigger HP loaders now makes road driving and moving around in busy lots riskier. Just like the comments, food for thought. We have 10 months to adjust the fleet, just like learning and fine tuning.


I agree with you completely...makes perfect sense. I do know that after running a compact loader and a skid steer with 10-12' boxes, double the cost for 2 feet is in no way worth it for us in light accumulation areas.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

There is a company by me that uses several backhoe and skip loaders for snow, all are equipped with HLA power wings. They do a great job. My 580SL is only used for knocking back banks, I really don't get into doing big lots but if I did I would use it. Loader arms on them are built strong and the power reverser shuttle is second to none. Never been a skid guy, I like to sit up high with room to move around. I do have some car ports that the hoe would not go under though...


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## Kybear (Nov 5, 2015)

Maneuverability between loader and hoe is biggest difference I see. So much easier to turn pusher with snow with a loader. Of course I started out in loader. Only added a hoe because didn't need another loader for summer work.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Not to go off topic... I've often wondered how feasible to remove the backhoe and add a pull plow in the winter? Clearly would be a custom fab job, but could it work?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Freshwater said:


> Not to go off topic... I've often wondered how feasible to remove the backhoe and add a pull plow in the winter? Clearly would be a custom fab job, but could it work?


That is no small job...


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

Actually think the hoe with all the weight out back is the right ballast for the big box out front and part of what seems to make it so good at bulldozing snow with a box.
That is part of my concern with the small loaders in the big open areas with heavy or deep stuff...with the lower weight, lower horse power, and less weight out back do they get the job done as well, or better...or...not even close. Thinking i need to find a clean loader, with 100hp, with buckets and forks, and road speed of 20plus and used clean for $40K. Not likely...at least double if i dont mind 3000 plus hours.

Lots of guys with the smaller loaders have 10 boxes or the power wings to keep it roadable. I can get nice used 12' boxes for 2-3K so i guess an option is to get newer backhoes as an upgrade and buy a couple used boxes and have a box sitting at each site and road the hoes to a second site if needed. As it stands trucks are all in early running around with plows and salters and doing laneways. Hoes are usually 2 hours later getting rolling and literally go back and forth for hours just bulldozing the acres. Maybe a bigger hoe with a bigger box (14') might be a better idea. I have met guys that say an ag tractor 100Hp with hla power wing is better than 2 pick ups and a hoe with a box. Cant see it but been wrong before. Gets back to redundancy too. Having $125K tied up in one machine/blade scares the hell out of me. One electrical gremlin or hose and your dead in the water. Having several cheaper machines so you have back ups, or boxes that if required a sub'd hoe can slide into and keep you from going bust has been the battle plan to date. Watching those loader and metal pless vids or the guy with the fleet of 244s...sure makes me want to add some of that to the mix.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> That is no small job...


Hook something to the backhoe arm? Too much risk with the hoe getting damaged?


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

rick W said:


> Actually think the hoe with all the weight out back is the right ballast for the big box out front and part of what seems to make it so good at bulldozing snow with a box.
> That is part of my concern with the small loaders in the big open areas with heavy or deep stuff...with the lower weight, lower horse power, and less weight out back do they get the job done as well, or better...or...not even close. Thinking i need to find a clean loader, with 100hp, with buckets and forks, and road speed of 20plus and used clean for $40K. Not likely...at least double if i dont mind 3000 plus hours.
> 
> Lots of guys with the smaller loaders have 10 boxes or the power wings to keep it roadable. I can get nice used 12' boxes for 2-3K so i guess an option is to get newer backhoes as an upgrade and buy a couple used boxes and have a box sitting at each site and road the hoes to a second site if needed. As it stands trucks are all in early running around with plows and salters and doing laneways. Hoes are usually 2 hours later getting rolling and literally go back and forth for hours just bulldozing the acres. Maybe a bigger hoe with a bigger box (14') might be a better idea. I have met guys that say an ag tractor 100Hp with hla power wing is better than 2 pick ups and a hoe with a box. Cant see it but been wrong before. Gets back to redundancy too. Having $125K tied up in one machine/blade scares the hell out of me. One electrical gremlin or hose and your dead in the water. Having several cheaper machines so you have back ups, or boxes that if required a sub'd hoe can slide into and keep you from going bust has been the battle plan to date. Watching those loader and metal pless vids or the guy with the fleet of 244s...sure makes me want to add some of that to the mix.


The ballast of the hoe would definitely be important.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Have you considered a winter lease on a loader? That way you could see if you like it or not? I rented a Case 621F after a 40 inch storm we got in January. Didn't have a box on it, just a 3 yard bucket to relocate some snow, and stack and roll piles. It really got me thinking about checking out rates on a machine that size or a little smaller for a winter lease next year. It was 26,000 pounds and around 160HP. It moved a lot of snow withou breaking a sweat, and the road speed was around 24MPH. If you go with a loader that you are going to road from site to site make sure it has load control. The rental did not, and road speed was more like 15MPH on our crappy roads because of it.


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## bluejlandscaper (Mar 2, 2008)

More productivity with a compact loader and a HLA wing plow, than a Industrial tractor with 12 push box. That's why I switching to the compact loader, CAT 906 and HLA 1015 wing plow. That's 15' of angle plowing for my roadways.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Freshwater said:


> Hook something to the backhoe arm? Too much risk with the hoe getting damaged?


https://www.plowsite.com/threads/re...ting-up-a-pusher-on-the-rear-of-a-580.107137/

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/case-580k-without-backhoe-pushing-snow.108305/

It has been discussed before, it is a big job for very little gain.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

After you operate an articulating loader with a box or hydraulic wing box you will never want to run a backhoe for snow again . Power through turns , 360 vision , and sitting higher are just a few benefits .


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

SHAWZER said:


> After you operate an articulating loader with a box or hydraulic wing box you will never want to run a backhoe for snow again . Power through turns , 360 vision , and sitting higher are just a few benefits .


I get those benefits. Can you advise what size loader you feel is well suited to diff size boxes. Where i live its usually only a few inches and i have experience operators so i dont mind pushing the limits a bit but i need to know what hp and weight machine can do a good job with a 12 heavy box. 70-90HP hoe at 16K pounds works well so need to know what loader i should be shopping for that can do the job. Maybe down the line with upgrade to a power wing plow but not in the cards for then next season.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

I have a 50 hp loader with a 9 ft box plow , could handle a 10 with a good operator in lighter snows . Also have a 120 hp loader with bucket mount 12 ft HLA pusher box . That loader would handle a 14 - 16 easy in lighter snowfalls . JD 244 - 344 would be an ideal size .


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

Loader is way better then hoe, I bought a JD410G hoe to add to the fleet because I already have 4 loaders and wanted something more versatile in the summer months. The hoe is no where near as productive as loader can be. But they can be handy for certain problems that come up, i always use mine to bust up frozen snow piles that need to be moved or to dig out fire hydrants that my workers buried.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I guess I don't understand the excitement about turning with snow in a box. The idea of push boxes is to go in straight lines and stack. Of every property I've ever run a box on, we build piles with the boxes and then take them in straight lines, not try to take it around the corner. 

Treat them like running a bulldozer pushing dirt and it's much easier. 

We can easily turn around 90* corners with our wing plows, especially if you have competent operators. However, it's still easier to build piles and move them in straight lines.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ktfbgb said:


> Have you considered a winter lease on a loader? That way you could see if you like it or not? I rented a Case 621F after a 40 inch storm we got in January. Didn't have a box on it, just a 3 yard bucket to relocate some snow, and stack and roll piles. It really got me thinking about checking out rates on a machine that size or a little smaller for a winter lease next year. It was 26,000 pounds and around 160HP. It moved a lot of snow withou breaking a sweat, and the road speed was around 24MPH. If you go with a loader that you are going to road from site to site make sure it has load control. The rental did not, and road speed was more like 15MPH on our crappy roads because of it.


Better take some of your own lube..........last Eye herd, they start at $2500 a month.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Building piles and moving it twice is counterproductive if you have a machine that can do it all at once. 

Not to mention, those once or twice a year storms, temps right aroond freezing, snow wet and heavy and you have to move it once, because if you don't, you aren't moving it again.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Better take some of your own lube..........last Eye herd, they start at $2500 a month.


If that's the case I won't be doing it lol.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Building piles and moving it twice is counterproductive if you have a machine that can do it all at once.
> 
> Not to mention, those once or twice a year storms, temps right aroond freezing, snow wet and heavy and you have to move it once, because if you don't, you aren't moving it again.


True and fair enough.


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