# Check out this Church lot... 60,000sqft parking lot how much seasonal? Per push



## rcoy07

Sorry i was not able to get photos on here I know its always better seeing what your working with. I have a wide open for the most part 60,100 sq ft lot. I have roughly 400 linear ft of sidewalks to do as well. I will be salting but I'm just curious what a ballpark seasonal price would be not including salting. 2 " trigger. 
What would your per push be? 130 per push?


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## Citytow

60k
x.012
______
$720.00 per push / all inclusive


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## 1olddogtwo

3 Hail Marys


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## mn-bob

Citytow;1867894 said:


> 60k
> x.012
> ______
> $720.00 per push / all inclusive


Well said ! Thumbs Up


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## rcoy07

Citytow;1867894 said:


> 60k
> x.012
> ______
> $720.00 per push / all inclusive


.012? Lol this is my first bid I go to this church and want to give them a fair price. I have a 1/2 ton ford with 7' Myers md2 blade. How many hours would you expect this would take just to plow? You said all inclusive? You talkin sidewalks parking lot and including salt?


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## BC Handyman

60ksq, 1/2 ton, 7' blade.....don't know where your located, but hope it's not a place you get more then 2" of snow per event.


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## Buswell Forest

The lot will take you 3 hours to push with that truck and plow. Here, I would ask for $280 -$300 for plowing and sidewalks. But it would take me about an hour and 15 minutes to push..


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## Citytow

rcoy07;1867932 said:


> .012? Lol this is my first bid I go to this church and want to give them a fair price. I have a 1/2 ton ford with 7' Myers md2 blade. How many hours would you expect this would take just to plow? You said all inclusive? You talkin sidewalks parking lot and including salt?[/QU
> 
> you talkin sidewalks ?


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## NThill93

650-800 depending on how hard it is. I would invest in either a bigger plow or wings or something. I do a church lot similar size and i use all 3 of my trucks and bring in a loader to stack.


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## JustJeff

NThill93;1890246 said:


> 650-800 depending on how hard it is. I would invest in either a bigger plow or wings or something. I do a church lot similar size and i use all 3 of my trucks and bring in a loader to stack.


Three trucks and a loader for a single 60,000 sq. ft. lot??? Glad you don't manage my business. He's plowing roughly 1.25 acres plus 400 ft. of walks. 1.25 acres takes about 75 minutes to plow give or take for a single truck. And you'd have three trucks and a loader there?

I'd be at 187.50 for plowing per push, not including salting or walks. I can't give you a seasonal bid as I don't know what your yearly snowfall average is, or how many events you average per year. That's a pretty cheap rate (150.00 per hour) since it's your church.


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## Mark Oomkes

NThill93;1890246 said:


> 650-800 depending on how hard it is. I would invest in either a bigger plow or wings or something. I do a church lot similar size and i use all 3 of my trucks and bring in a loader to stack.


Lol

3 trucks and a loader for a 40 minute plow job?

You must be related to Antlerart.


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## Defcon 5

NThill93;1890246 said:


> 650-800 depending on how hard it is. I would invest in either a bigger plow or wings or something. I do a church lot similar size and i use all 3 of my trucks and bring in a loader to stack.


So.......What do you get for that lot you put three trucks and a loader on?????...........Hope its more than $600-$800...........


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## JustJeff

^^^^ And 650-800 per push! I'm sure he's got a lot of clients that pay in that range too for that amount of area too!!!


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## NThill93

Sorry about that mistook the size of the lot he is doing thought it was a lot bigger. mine is about 3 times the size and theres more than just the lot. and i get 650-800 per plow, the guy before me was getting 1200. again sorry made a mistake on the size


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## Brian Young

Well size does matter ya know


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## Jfdvrod

Plow Price $180
Salt Treatment: $220
Sidewalks: Clear and treat $95


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## Antlerart06

Mark Oomkes;1890298 said:


> Lol
> 
> 3 trucks and a loader for a 40 minute plow job?
> 
> You must be related to Antlerart.


I would use only 2 trucks on it So Sorry you don't like way I plow snow 
You think your way is right and I think my way right and faster But if I have time to spare sure one truck can handle it, but early Sunday morning sometimes there not much time before people start coming in for service 
You rather be there for 40mins and my way I only will be there for 20 mins 
:waving: Yep you way must be right Here is your Sign


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## Mark Oomkes

Antlerart06;1890534 said:


> I would use only 2 trucks on it So Sorry you don't like way I plow snow
> You think your way is right and I think my way right and faster But if I have time to spare sure one truck can handle it, but early Sunday morning sometimes there not much time before people start coming in for service
> You rather be there for 40mins and my way I only will be there for 20 mins
> :waving: Yep you way must be right Here is your Sign


Lighten up Sally, I've already proved that my way is faster.


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## Antlerart06

Mark Oomkes;1890771 said:


> Lighten up Sally, I've already proved that my way is faster.


You say and I proved my way faster so I guess we both right in some way
You must have more lots. So you cant run 2 trucks on one. I don't know But My way has work for me 30 yrs around here a lot of snow guys does it same way 
Like one 5 acre lot I have last company ran 3 trucks or the 20 acre lot they have I seen up 6 trucks and one skid.

When you plow by per visit contracts you want to get in there and out there as fast you can cause in a hour you can have 1''-2'' back on the lot 
If one truck there and takes him 1 hr to clean it once you get done where you started at on the lot it can have 1'' or 2'' of new snow.

With my contacts Lots must be clean to count as a visit So that's why I run more then one rig on all my acre larger lots

Maybe you plow by inches then 1 truck will work for you


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## UniqueTouch

NThill93;1890366 said:


> Sorry about that mistook the size of the lot he is doing thought it was a lot bigger. mine is about 3 times the size and theres more than just the lot. and i get 650-800 per plow, the guy before me was getting 1200. again sorry made a mistake on the size


Damn man you cut him by $550? Man someone would try and kill us here where i am at for that, plus how did ya find out what they used to pay?


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## On a Call

I would join the church and do it for free...but then I have a church so I guess I would charge.

To me it sounds like a 250 plow job, with about 200 for salting


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## On a Call

up to 4 inches that is.


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## Mark Oomkes

UniqueTouch;1956882 said:


> Damn man you cut him by $550? Man someone would try and kill us here where i am at for that, plus how did ya find out what they used to pay?


Maybe because most of the prices thrown out here are absolutely, ridiculously high.

It's 60,000 sq ft, wide open.

Industry average is 1 acre per hour with an 8 foot plow.

1.37 acres, wide open.

He asked strictly about a price for plowing. Even at 2 hours for plowing he's at $275\hour with a small truck and a 7.5 plow.

Does that mean I should get $500\hour with a 350\3500 with 8611LP and 16' Ebling?

I'm confused and amazed at some people's lack of math skills.


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## BUFF

Mark Oomkes;1956991 said:


> Maybe because most of the prices thrown out here are absolutely, ridiculously high.
> 
> It's 60,000 sq ft, wide open.
> 
> Industry average is 1 acre per hour with an 8 foot plow.
> 
> 1.37 acres, wide open.
> 
> He asked strictly about a price for plowing. Even at 2 hours for plowing he's at $275\hour with a small truck and a 7.5 plow.
> 
> Does that mean I should get $500\hour with a 350\3500 with 8611LP and 16' Ebling?
> 
> I'm confused and amazed at some people's lack of math skills.


I'm with you on the ridiculously high numbers being thrown around. I know rates vary from location to location, but not $180-800 per push, $60K seasonal and 3pickups and a loader for equipment. Is there enough room to efficiently move 4pcs of equipment on a 1.375acre lot....... 
I have a rectangular 1.2arce Methodist church lot, wide open, 1" trigger and up to 5" or so it takes 23minutes with a 8.2V with wings. My pricing is on the low end of what's being thrown around. I'm also using tiered pricing in 4" increments.

Also is a church, yes they should pay but not some of the higher rates being thrown out.......... Sinners


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## jhenderson9196

There's 60,000 unobstructed sq ft to be covered. How long it takes is irrelevant. Would it be worth more if the guy shoveled it? A contractors' efficiency should benefit the contractor. It's worth whatever you charge by the sq ft. + or - obstructions that delay progress.


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## John_DeereGreen

If that lot takes more than an hour to clear you're doing something wrong, or you've got a **** ton of snow. 

How the hell anyone can even consider 4-900 bucks for this is insane.

I'd be about 100 bucks for my market.


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## On a Call

John_DeereGreen;1957097 said:


> If that lot takes more than an hour to clear you're doing something wrong, or you've got a **** ton of snow.
> 
> How the hell anyone can even consider 4-900 bucks for this is insane.
> 
> I'd be about 100 bucks for my market.


Is that including salting it ?

if so, can you travel north to Toledo and plow with me ? I pay cash


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## John_DeereGreen

On a Call;1957104 said:


> Is that including salting it ?
> 
> if so, can you travel north to Toledo and plow with me ? I pay cash


No, I'd be around 75 for salt.


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## BUFF

jhenderson9196;1957081 said:


> There's 60,000 unobstructed sq ft to be covered. How long it takes is irrelevant. Would it be worth more if the guy shoveled it? A contractors' efficiency should benefit the contractor. It's worth whatever you charge by the sq ft. + or - obstructions that delay progress.


There's a limit on what any market will pay, if market hourly rate is $100.00 an hour should a job like this that takes 30minute (for easy math) be billed out at $50.00? Heck no this is why per push is the way to bill.


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## Mark Oomkes

jhenderson9196;1957081 said:


> How long it takes is irrelevant.


What the............


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## Plowtoy

Im not trying to pick on you, but what you said doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm missing something...



Antlerart06;1890866 said:


> When you plow by per visit contracts you want to get in there and out there as fast you can cause in a hour you can have 1''-2'' back on the lot
> If one truck there and takes him 1 hr to clean it once you get done where you started at on the lot it can have 1'' or 2'' of new snow.
> 
> *The more trucks you have in one lot at a time, also means less money in your pocket per push, unless your guys are working for free*
> 
> With my contacts Lots must be clean to count as a visit So that's why I run more then one rig on all my acre larger lots
> 
> *What happens if you are getting snow faster than can be cleared? They are only charged one visit? Go over the lot, if theres new accumulation when your done and it has to be plowed again, bill again...Thats how per push (visit) works*


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## Antlerart06

Plowtoy;1957273 said:


> Im not trying to pick on you, but what you said doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm missing something...


When you plow by per visit contracts you want to get in there and out there as fast you can cause in a hour you can have 1''-2'' back on the lot 
If one truck there and takes him 1 hr to clean it once you get done where you started at on the lot it can have 1'' or 2'' of new snow.

The more trucks you have in one lot at a time, also means less money in your pocket per push, unless your guys are working for free I don't understand what you are asking 
If lot is $100 lot Takes 2 trucks 30min to clean. That's 50 per truck for 30 min worth of work So how am I loosing money

With my contacts Lots must be clean to count as a visit So that's why I run more then one rig on all my acre larger lots

What happens if you are getting snow faster than can be cleared? They are only charged one visit? Go over the lot, if theres new accumulation when your done and it has to be plowed again, bill again...Thats how per push (visit) works

If its coming down that hard most of the time its a Blizzard so that falls under a different part of the contract


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## AUDRAIN PLOWER

i would charge 500 pr hour and use a shovel


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## jhenderson9196

Mark. By the way you take one sentence out of context I'll assume you are a politician in real life.


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## Mark Oomkes

jhenderson9196;1957600 said:


> Mark. By the way you take one sentence out of context I'll assume you are a politician in real life.


Yeah, that's me, a politician.

How about you explain that post then, because it makes no sense to me.


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## jhenderson9196

It doesn't matter if you are moving snow,dirt, or any other material. It's how much material moved how far? Do I pay you more to move 1000 square feet of snow because it took you a day with a shovel, rather than someone taking 15 minutes with a plow? No! The job is worth what it's worth no matter how long it takes. If I'm more efficient and can do it in less time I get the same money, and move on to the next job. Go cut logs with an axe and a crosscut saw, then tell the sawmill they're worh 5 times more than the next guys' because it took you 5 times as long to cut them. See how far you get. Savvy?


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## leigh

Welcome to the bizzare world of snow plowing bidding! I've been drinking after plowing today and I'm bedazzled by the sheer genius being exhibited here! I think we're doomed


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## Plowtoy

Again, not trying to pick on you, but your way doesn't make sense to me.



Antlerart06;1957514 said:


> I don't understand what you are asking
> If lot is $100 lot Takes 2 trucks 30min to clean. That's 50 per truck for 30 min worth of work So how am I loosing money
> 
> *So you pay your guys per push too? If these people working for you are sub contractors and you pay the full $100 to them to do the job, there is NO ($0.00) money in it for you. Same goes for employees if you are paying them per job vs per hour, except you would then be taking a loss because its your equipment, fuel, insurance, repairs ect...ect...ect... on top of what you are paying. If you are one of the two trucks, wouldn't you end up with more money in your pocket if there was only you in that lot, even if it took the whole hour? *
> 
> What happens if you are getting snow faster than can be cleared? They are only charged one visit? Go over the lot, if theres new accumulation when your done and it has to be plowed again, bill again...Thats how per push (visit) works
> 
> If its coming down that hard most of the time its a Blizzard so that falls under a different part of the contract
> 
> *From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> A blizzard is a severe snowstorm characterized by strong sustained winds of at least 56 km/h (35 mph) and lasting for a prolonged period of time-typically three hours or more.
> 
> So your "blizzards" arn't real blizzards? Not sure where "in the woods" is, but where I am, with lake effect snow, there are many days I could "plow in circles" I may finish a lot and turn right around and start over again thanks to good old Lake Michigan. This would be another "Visit", could be several depending on the trigger and IF I am able to keep up*.


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## Mark Oomkes

jhenderson9196;1958224 said:


> It doesn't matter if you are moving snow,dirt, or any other material. It's how much material moved how far? Do I pay you more to move 1000 square feet of snow because it took you a day with a shovel, rather than someone taking 15 minutes with a plow? No! The job is worth what it's worth no matter how long it takes. If I'm more efficient and can do it in less time I get the same money, and move on to the next job. Go cut logs with an axe and a crosscut saw, then tell the sawmill they're worh 5 times more than the next guys' because it took you 5 times as long to cut them. See how far you get. Savvy?


It is not how much material moved how far that we are selling.

We are selling a service. A service consists of time. Basically, we are selling time. When salting, we are selling material plus time.

That guy with the shovel is not going to command the same dollars per hour as a truck, but in the end, it might cost the customer the same. Or more.

This is why everyone needs to know their hourly rate. Because whether one is billing by the hour, per inch, per push, seasonal, or any combination thereof, it DOES matter how much time it takes to plow a lot. Because that is what we are selling. Time.

You are talking about what the market can bear. If a job is worth $100, it can be worth $100 of shoveling at 5 hours for $20\hour or it can be a half hour at $200\hour. Either way, we need to estimate how much time a job will take and what our hourly rate is. If we can't do it for what the customer is willing to pay, then so be it. But it makes ALL the difference in the world the time involved when that is what we are selling, which is what we are.


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## SnoFarmer

jhenderson9196;1958224 said:


> It doesn't matter if you are moving snow,dirt, or any other material. It's how much material moved how far? Do I pay you more to move 1000 square feet of snow because it took you a day with a shovel, rather than someone taking 15 minutes with a plow? No! The job is worth what it's worth no matter how long it takes. If I'm more efficient and can do it in less time I get the same money, and move on to the next job. Go cut logs with an axe and a crosscut saw, then tell the sawmill they're worh 5 times more than the next guys' because it took you 5 times as long to cut them. See how far you get. Savvy?


I agree, 
Something is wrong


Mark Oomkes;1960023 said:


> It is not how much material moved how far that we are selling.
> 
> We are selling a service. A service consists of time. Basically, we are selling time. When salting, we are selling material plus time.
> 
> That guy with the shovel is not going to command the same dollars per hour as a truck, but in the end, it might cost the customer the same. Or more.
> 
> This is why everyone needs to know their hourly rate. Because whether one is billing by the hour, per inch, per push, seasonal, or any combination thereof, it DOES matter how much time it takes to plow a lot. Because that is what we are selling. Time.
> 
> You are talking about what the market can bear. If a job is worth $100, it can be worth $100 of shoveling at 5 hours for $20\hour or it can be a half hour at $200\hour. Either way, we need to estimate how much time a job will take and what our hourly rate is. If we can't do it for what the customer is willing to pay, then so be it. But it makes ALL the difference in the world the time involved when that is what we are selling, which is what we are.


I agree, work time at x for y = $sq

To me, both of you said basically the same thing.

I know what I need a hr to make a profit but I bid by the push, with a minimum price tag.


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## leigh

Easy guys,your trying to apply basic business principles to the wonderful world of snowplowing!On second thought,shouldn't it apply 100 % Hmmmm....


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## Antlerart06

Plowtoy;1959773 said:


> Again, not trying to pick on you, but your way doesn't make sense to me.


I'm lost on you I'm trying understand your thinking 
I don't see how you think I'm loosing money running 2 trucks. on one lot

I own all trucks 
Lot $100 with 1 truck takes a 1 hour Pay the driver $20 for that hour I get $80
Same Lot $100 2 trucks takes 30 mins So each guy gets paid $10 for 30mins So that's $20 in labor and I get $80

So you pay your guys per push too? If these people working for you are sub contractors and you pay the full $100 to them to do the job, there is NO ($0.00) money in it for you. Same goes for employees if you are paying them per job vs per hour, except you would then be taking a loss because its your equipment, fuel, insurance, repairs ect...ect...ect... on top of what you are paying. If you are one of the two trucks, wouldn't you end up with more money in your pocket if there was only you in that lot, even if it took the whole hour?

Where did this come from Did I say I paid my employees per push. You are getting more lost 

My business is Inc. I get a pay check like everyone else does. I might have some extra benfits but the lot money cant go in my pocket. It goes in the business back account. Unless someone puts my name on it, Then its mine.
It has the Business name on it I cant cash it has to be deposited.

So your "blizzards" arn't real blizzards? Not sure where "in the woods" is, but where I am, with lake effect snow, there are many days I could "plow in circles" I may finish a lot and turn right around and start over again thanks to good old Lake Michigan. This would be another "Visit", could be several depending on the trigger and IF I am able to keep up.

So when weather man issue a Blizzard warning its not one since I'm not from you state . Now that's :laughing::laughing:

I hate be in a blizzard running your Straight plows in your photo.


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## John_DeereGreen

I fail to see the point in 2 trucks in an acre lot. That seems like banging your head against a wall. Doesn't make any sense.

Yes, the lot gets done faster, but if it's bid for 1 hour of total plowing time, you will NOT cut that time exactly in half with 2 trucks. Won't happen. It'll end up taking about 40 minutes with both, therefore actually taking LONGER in the end than if one truck were in there by it's self. Plus the driving time of sending both there from lot to lot.

It takes a minimum of 4-5 acres for me to consider 2 trucks in a lot unless it's an extremely broken up property that one can do one side and the other can do the other. 

They're working "together" but at the end of the day, there's still the same acreage to clear, and putting 2 trucks in a lot that 1 can easily do alone makes no sense to me. You're taking more time to do the same work, therefore losing money.

When we're cleaing curb lines and tucking piles up after storms, we always run 2 skids, but each machine does a certain area of the lot. That's the only time we have 2 pieces in small lots.

Just my opinion.


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## leigh

John_DeereGreen;1960728 said:


> I fail to see the point in 2 trucks in an acre lot. That seems like banging your head against a wall. Doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Yes, the lot gets done faster, but if it's bid for 1 hour of total plowing time, you will NOT cut that time exactly in half with 2 trucks. Won't happen. It'll end up taking about 40 minutes with both, therefore actually taking LONGER in the end than if one truck were in there by it's self. Plus the driving time of sending both there from lot to lot.
> 
> It takes a minimum of 4-5 acres for me to consider 2 trucks in a lot unless it's an extremely broken up property that one can do one side and the other can do the other.
> 
> They're working "together" but at the end of the day, there's still the same acreage to clear, and putting 2 trucks in a lot that 1 can easily do alone makes no sense to me. You're taking more time to do the same work, therefore losing money.
> 
> Just my opinion.


I agree(who cares lol) Another point is doubling up on travel time between jobs,if that applies.We will double up for large snowfalls.It's good for morale.Nice to have illusion of productivity.Also having someone to give you a pull if you get stuck.(usually me)Was asked at a seminar "What's the most efficient size crew",everyone said two,answer - one. But to each there own.


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## Mark Oomkes

John_DeereGreen;1960728 said:


> I fail to see the point in 2 trucks in an acre lot. That seems like banging your head against a wall. Doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Yes, the lot gets done faster, but if it's bid for 1 hour of total plowing time, you will NOT cut that time exactly in half with 2 trucks. Won't happen. It'll end up taking about 40 minutes with both, therefore actually taking LONGER in the end than if one truck were in there by it's self. Plus the driving time of sending both there from lot to lot.
> 
> It takes a minimum of 4-5 acres for me to consider 2 trucks in a lot unless it's an extremely broken up property that one can do one side and the other can do the other.
> 
> They're working "together" but at the end of the day, there's still the same acreage to clear, and putting 2 trucks in a lot that 1 can easily do alone makes no sense to me. You're taking more time to do the same work, therefore losing money.
> 
> When we're cleaing curb lines and tucking piles up after storms, we always run 2 skids, but each machine does a certain area of the lot. That's the only time we have 2 pieces in small lots.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Stop making sense.  



leigh;1960734 said:


> I agree(who cares lol) Another point is doubling up on travel time between jobs,if that applies.We will double up for large snowfalls.It's good for morale.Nice to have illusion of productivity.Also having someone to give you a pull if you get stuck.(usually me)Was asked at a seminar "What's the most efficient size crew",everyone said two,answer - one. But to each there own.


There is no way to beat the efficiency of a 1 man crew. I have argued this time and again, but people just don't believe it.

Sure, you might want to double up on a large site, but not for "normal" sites. I've been advocating that for over 10 years.


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## John_DeereGreen

Mark Oomkes;1960775 said:


> Stop making sense.
> 
> There is no way to beat the efficiency of a 1 man crew. I have argued this time and again, but people just don't believe it.
> 
> Sure, you might want to double up on a large site, but not for "normal" sites. I've been advocating that for over 10 years.


Agreed totally. We've tried it in several cases and several types of storms. Takes longer every time.

What's your definition of "large?"


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## Plowtoy

Antlerart06;1960218 said:


> I'm lost on you I'm trying understand your thinking
> I don't see how you think I'm loosing money running 2 trucks. on one lot
> 
> I own all trucks
> Lot $100 with 1 truck takes a 1 hour Pay the driver $20 for that hour I get $80
> Same Lot $100 2 trucks takes 30 mins So each guy gets paid $10 for 30mins So that's $20 in labor and I get $80
> 
> So you pay your guys per push too? If these people working for you are sub contractors and you pay the full $100 to them to do the job, there is NO ($0.00) money in it for you. Same goes for employees if you are paying them per job vs per hour, except you would then be taking a loss because its your equipment, fuel, insurance, repairs ect...ect...ect... on top of what you are paying. If you are one of the two trucks, wouldn't you end up with more money in your pocket if there was only you in that lot, even if it took the whole hour?
> 
> Where did this come from Did I say I paid my employees per push. You are getting more lost
> 
> My business is Inc. I get a pay check like everyone else does. I might have some extra benfits but the lot money cant go in my pocket. It goes in the business back account. Unless someone puts my name on it, Then its mine.
> It has the Business name on it I cant cash it has to be deposited.
> 
> So your "blizzards" arn't real blizzards? Not sure where "in the woods" is, but where I am, with lake effect snow, there are many days I could "plow in circles" I may finish a lot and turn right around and start over again thanks to good old Lake Michigan. This would be another "Visit", could be several depending on the trigger and IF I am able to keep up.
> 
> So when weather man issue a Blizzard warning its not one since I'm not from you state . Now that's :laughing::laughing:
> 
> I hate be in a blizzard running your Straight plows in your photo.


Yep, you have it all figured out. What was I thinking... A member for 4 years and has 3252 posts must know everything there is to know about plowing and business. Go on and just keep doing what works for you, I'm done with this thread... To the op, sorry to go off topic...


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## Mark Oomkes

Antlerart06;1960218 said:


> I'm lost on you I'm trying understand your thinking
> I don't see how you think I'm loosing money running 2 trucks. on one lot
> 
> I own all trucks
> Lot $100 with 1 truck takes a 1 hour Pay the driver $20 for that hour I get $80
> Same Lot $100 2 trucks takes 30 mins So each guy gets paid $10 for 30mins So that's $20 in labor and I get $80
> 
> So you pay your guys per push too? If these people working for you are sub contractors and you pay the full $100 to them to do the job, there is NO ($0.00) money in it for you. Same goes for employees if you are paying them per job vs per hour, except you would then be taking a loss because its your equipment, fuel, insurance, repairs ect...ect...ect... on top of what you are paying. If you are one of the two trucks, wouldn't you end up with more money in your pocket if there was only you in that lot, even if it took the whole hour?
> 
> Where did this come from Did I say I paid my employees per push. You are getting more lost
> 
> My business is Inc. I get a pay check like everyone else does. I might have some extra benfits but the lot money cant go in my pocket. It goes in the business back account. Unless someone puts my name on it, Then its mine.
> It has the Business name on it I cant cash it has to be deposited.
> 
> So your "blizzards" arn't real blizzards? Not sure where "in the woods" is, but where I am, with lake effect snow, there are many days I could "plow in circles" I may finish a lot and turn right around and start over again thanks to good old Lake Michigan. This would be another "Visit", could be several depending on the trigger and IF I am able to keep up.
> 
> So when weather man issue a Blizzard warning its not one since I'm not from you state . Now that's :laughing::laughing:
> 
> I hate be in a blizzard running your Straight plows in your photo.


I have a headache again.


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## Mark Oomkes

John_DeereGreen;1960781 said:


> Agreed totally. We've tried it in several cases and several types of storms. Takes longer every time.
> 
> What's your definition of "large?"


I will double up trucks in a larger storm--8+ inches, like leigh said. Sometimes.

Good question, I don't really have an answer. Too many variables.

That church I posted about can have 2 or 3 trucks in it, because it's at the tail end of several routes. It can also be done by 1 truck or tractor.

My other large lots have a setup vehicle and a loader with pusher. So in reality, only one is pushing the snow, the other is getting it ready for snow.

In reality, most of the lots that I might double up equipment in are very broken up so the trucks really aren't close together. More like working on the same account, not the same lot.

Honestly, I don't understand Antler's method. Sure, an account can be completed faster. But I get more accounts cleared in the same amount of clock time as he does, and more efficiently. Because we are not interfering with one another. And less travel time. I'd rather spread my equipment around, make more customers happy in the same amount of clock time while he completes fewer accounts in the same clock time. More efficiently. Not working around each other. Not having 2 people travel to the same location for the same job. To each their own.


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## John_DeereGreen

Mark Oomkes;1960837 said:


> I will double up trucks in a larger storm--8+ inches, like leigh said. Sometimes.
> 
> Good question, I don't really have an answer. Too many variables.
> 
> That church I posted about can have 2 or 3 trucks in it, because it's at the tail end of several routes. It can also be done by 1 truck or tractor.
> 
> My other large lots have a setup vehicle and a loader with pusher. So in reality, only one is pushing the snow, the other is getting it ready for snow.
> 
> In reality, most of the lots that I might double up equipment in are very broken up so the trucks really aren't close together. More like working on the same account, not the same lot.
> 
> Honestly, I don't understand Antler's method. Sure, an account can be completed faster. But I get more accounts cleared in the same amount of clock time as he does, and more efficiently. Because we are not interfering with one another. And less travel time. I'd rather spread my equipment around, make more customers happy in the same amount of clock time while he completes fewer accounts in the same clock time. More efficiently. Not working around each other. Not having 2 people travel to the same location for the same job. To each their own.


Makes perfect sense. Our larger lots for the most part are broken up too, and I have no problem with having 2 trucks in those. It's more like they're working separate lots within an account. There are a couple big ones that are 10+ acres of pavement with nothing but islands and light poles. Those are the ones that get combinations of trucks, skids and loaders depending on what the storm is doing.


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## Antlerart06

John_DeereGreen;1960728 said:


> I fail to see the point in 2 trucks in an acre lot. That seems like banging your head against a wall. Doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Yes, the lot gets done faster, but if it's bid for 1 hour of total plowing time, you will NOT cut that time exactly in half with 2 trucks. Won't happen. It'll end up taking about 40 minutes with both, therefore actually taking LONGER in the end than if one truck were in there by it's self. Plus the driving time of sending both there from lot to lot.
> 
> It takes a minimum of 4-5 acres for me to consider 2 trucks in a lot unless it's an extremely broken up property that one can do one side and the other can do the other.
> 
> They're working "together" but at the end of the day, there's still the same acreage to clear, and putting 2 trucks in a lot that 1 can easily do alone makes no sense to me. You're taking more time to do the same work, therefore losing money.
> 
> When we're cleaing curb lines and tucking piles up after storms, we always run 2 skids, but each machine does a certain area of the lot. That's the only time we have 2 pieces in small lots.
> 
> Just my opinion.


.
Yes that is your Opinion and this is mine
Plowing with 2 is just like you running 2 skids each guy knows his area to work on once it done they move on. It doesn't take more time. I track it many times in my lots cut time in half sometimes more then half its saving time.
This only works with veteran guys. 
I only do it when the window of time is falling on 1-2 acre church lots
Bigger lots 5acre + I'll run more then 2 like I said, before each guy has a job, when that job is done they move on to there next lot.

This one 5 acre lot is a seasonal lot. I track time on it last year since was my first ever seasonal lot. I wanted to see if I was going be making anything if I bid it right. I made a small profit.
Between 2 5'' storms that ended middle of the night, empty lot.
1st storm- 1 tractor and 1 truck took 2 hrs. each with 4 hrs. of labor. 
2nd storm- 2 trucks was there for 45 mins. a tractor was there 1 hr. and a skid 45 mins. Totally labor was 3.25 hrs. was only there for 1 hr.
Plus the detail work was better, the 2nd time since the Skid was there. 
In this lot there is room for more then 2. 3 would be the best number. 
Tractor, Skid and a Truck has been working well together this year in this lot. But have had a 5'' storm this year to compare it to last year.

JD Green what do you do during the Summer time?

I run a lawn care use to crop now only run cattle all crop fields are Hay fields.
Mowing lawns in a 5 acre lawn, I run more then one mower, I'll run 3 in that size if I can.
Cutting hay I run 2 10ft disc mowers. Run 2 rakes and run 2 balers
Sure 1 can do all those jobs but when you are working against the clock more then one is faster.


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## snocrete

leigh;1960734 said:


> I agree(who cares lol) Another point is doubling up on travel time between jobs,if that applies.We will double up for large snowfalls.It's good for morale. *we have done this, but it has to be EXTREME conditions to really justify it....like maybe once in 10-20yrs around my parts.?..??...*Nice to have illusion of productivity.Also having someone to give you a pull if you get stuck.(usually me)Was asked at a seminar "What's the most efficient size crew",everyone said two,*answer - one.* But to each there own.


so true



Mark Oomkes;1960775 said:


> Stop making sense.
> 
> There is no way to beat the efficiency of a 1 man crew. I have argued this time and again, but people just don't believe it.


making sense is not excepted by many....unless they said it first.



Mark Oomkes;1960831 said:


> I have a headache again.


glad Im not the only one


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## John_DeereGreen

Antlerart06;1960897 said:


> .
> Yes that is your Opinion and this is mine
> Plowing with 2 is just like you running 2 skids each guy knows his area to work on once it done they move on. It doesn't take more time. I track it many times in my lots cut time in half sometimes more then half its saving time.
> This only works with veteran guys.
> I only do it when the window of time is falling on 1-2 acre church lots
> Bigger lots 5acre + I'll run more then 2 like I said, before each guy has a job, when that job is done they move on to there next lot.
> 
> This one 5 acre lot is a seasonal lot. I track time on it last year since was my first ever seasonal lot. I wanted to see if I was going be making anything if I bid it right. I made a small profit.
> Between 2 5'' storms that ended middle of the night, empty lot.
> 1st storm- 1 tractor and 1 truck took 2 hrs. each with 4 hrs. of labor.
> 2nd storm- 2 trucks was there for 45 mins. a tractor was there 1 hr. and a skid 45 mins. Totally labor was 3.25 hrs. was only there for 1 hr.
> Plus the detail work was better, the 2nd time since the Skid was there.
> In this lot there is room for more then 2. 3 would be the best number.
> Tractor, Skid and a Truck has been working well together this year in this lot. But have had a 5'' storm this year to compare it to last year.
> 
> JD Green what do you do during the Summer time?
> 
> I run a lawn care use to crop now only run cattle all crop fields are Hay fields.
> Mowing lawns in a 5 acre lawn, I run more then one mower, I'll run 3 in that size if I can.
> Cutting hay I run 2 10ft disc mowers. Run 2 rakes and run 2 balers
> Sure 1 can do all those jobs but when you are working against the clock more then one is faster.


I would absoluly love to see you cut your total man hours of time down by over half with 2 pieces of equipment in the same lot instead of 1.

I guess we'll agree to disagree on this matter.

We are landscape/hardscape and fert in the summer. Used to mow, but sold the mowing division last spring and the best decision we ever made. Before I got into this industry my family and I farmed about 3000 acres.


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## MSsnowplowing

I break down all the contracts and assign one truck to 4-5 of them depending on size and time factors to plow them.

The only time I double up trucks is during major storms for safety reasons.

As for pricing, hourly rate for each site and for seasonal that times the average snowfall. 

Salt and sidewalks extra. 

Clauses in the seasonal contracts any one storm over a certain amount of snow fallen gets charged extra.

Same thing goes for total amount of snow for the season, anything over that amount gets charged extra.

So if a lot takes 45 minutes to plow, I charge for 1 hour, if it's less than half an hour I only charge half the amount.

Example:
Say I charge $50 per hour to plow only.

lot A takes 30 to 60 minutes to plow, I charge them $50 for plowing only.
lot B takes under 30 minutes to plow, I charge them $25 for plowing only.
I bill by the inches fallen so if we got 6 inches of snow and I went there twice -(every 3 inches) then they would get billed for $100
For every 2 inches they would get billed $150 -(because I would have plowed their lot 3 times)

Let's say the Seasonal is calculated at 52 inches per year.
I would use the trigger amount say 3 inches divided by 52 = 17
17 times $50 = $850
If the trigger amount is 2 inches divided by 52 = 26
26 times $50 = $1,300
so 
lot A seasonal would be $850 plowing only for a 3 inch trigger
lot B seasonal would be $425 plowing only for a 3 inch trigger

Note: 
These prices are just examples as real prices vary from town to town in this State and vary from State to State.
You need to know your market area to get real time prices.


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