# Am I Too Low?



## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

I got a call a few days ago from a property management company asking me to put in a bid for next season.

3" Trigger
58,000 sq.ft. parking lot
64,000 sq.ft. roads
4,500 sq.ft. sidewalks










They wanted pricing for:
3-6 inches
6+ - 10 inches
10+ - 14 inches
14+ inches
Sidewalks 
Salt/Sand

I'm not a fan of those increments, but it's what they want.

I got a phone call yesterday bc of the proposed 9" we were supposed to get here on LI. She pretty much asked me for an immediate quote. I went over the property real quick and gave her this:

Plowing:
3-6" $500
6-10" $750
10-14" $1,000
14"+ $100/inch
Sand/Salt - N/A (1. I don't have any. 2. I knew we wouldn't need it. 3. I need help pricing that)

Sidewalks:
3-6" $150
6-10" $225
10-14" $300
14"+ $30/inch
Salt $125/application
Ice Melt $180/application

She accepted those prices immediately and without question, except for the 14+ stuff. They don't like variables, they need firm numbers. I'd either need to write in some kind of blizzard clause or, if they really want something firm, an inflated number to CMA. Getting hit with a another 30" storm at the 14" rate would really hurt.

Anyway... Do you think I came in too low? I specified in the email that the prices were for Sunday, March 20 ONLY.

Also, what should I expect to put down on this site salt-wise? Only one truck has a sander, a TGS07. I figure I'll either need to store a little salt on-site to refill or simply upgrade to a bigger unit. Another truck with a real spreader would be ideal, but I just bought a house and have a kid on the way.

Sidewalks: Doing residential stuff, I'll just throw down melt and charge accordingly. On a job like this, I need to have a pretty good idea of the cost. Based on some application rates I found on here, I should be looking at 6 bags of product. Seems a little heavy, but charging too much is better than too little.

It's a 5-year contract. I'll discuss pricing adjustments before I submit an official bid, but I don't want to be stuck in an underpaid situation for that long.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Couldn't tell you much on pricing, as I don't know your OH and am not familiar with your area pricing.

Something that concerns me is the trigger; are you going to salt anything less than 3" or are you only if you plow? What happened to their other contractor? 

If you're salting the roads and parking lots, you will be refilling a few times.
I also hope you don't intend to do this lot on your own.


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## salopez (Apr 11, 2004)

I think you have left money on the table, especially as he snow increases...your costs are going to go up exponentially and your dollars are going up incrementally....


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

BossPlow2010;2131306 said:


> Couldn't tell you much on pricing, as I don't know your OH and am not familiar with your area pricing.
> 
> Something that concerns me is the trigger; are you going to salt anything less than 3" or are you only if you plow? What happened to their other contractor?
> 
> ...


To be honest, my overhead is pretty light. Insurance, gas, the other driver, and the repairs that tend to happen every year. I'm a run-from-home business so there's no yard or office rent to be paid. One problem is that I'm not even sure how long it will take me to to the lot. The roads aren't a big deal... A few shots up and down. But the parking lot itself... Since I've started (way back in 2013...), I've been doing roads and driveways. Any commercial interest I've had I never went through with, either because I didn't want to move away from the money I made plowing for the city, or because the commercial endeavor was simply over my head. A quick look at my post history will give you an idea. I'm giving up on the city plowing (political drama) and this is the first "big" property that looks to be doable with my little company and it's two trucks.

Salting for less that 3" wasn't mentioned.

From what I understand, their other contractor was kind of a flake. One thing she said to me was that he had a tendency to "go on vacation" and not tell them who would be covering the lot.

My plan was only one truck. What would it take, two hours to do the lot section? Three passes up and down the road and it's clear. I have another truck I can use on the property if needed. That's why I turn to you guys, you've all been doing this much longer than I have. I oculd always have both trucks there for the first event, and if it's unnecessary, send the other guy away.



salopez;2131325 said:


> I think you have left money on the table, especially as he snow increases...your costs are going to go up exponentially and your dollars are going up incrementally....


That what I'm afraid of. I still need to go out at some point and do a survey of the property, so that gives me he perfect opportunity to increase prices a bit.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

This whole thing sounds like some kind of mess. Not your pricing, Why the strange trigger levels and who calls them. Why in the world would they be needing plow service now. I would want to think former contractor did not get paid, Possibly trouble with contractor with on site snow wizard wanting salt when not needed at a dusting and not slick etc.

How are you going to be paid? Invoice on the 1st and paid by 10 20 days or 120 day for you see any monies. What equipment do you plan on using? This is not a sole operation. Is this management co. local where you can handle non payment? 

See if you can find out who was servicing them, Maybe you can get some info. We all get these calls from vendors time to time. I would use caution, You only have less than 30 days till end of season. We been advised to figure 800lb of salt per acre spread. Maybe I'm just ranting I don't go for this 3rd party stuff. maybe subbing for another contractor I know. Good Luck


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

FredG;2131341 said:


> This whole thing sounds like some kind of mess. Not your pricing, Why the strange trigger levels and who calls them. Why in the world would they be needing plow service now. I would want to think former contractor did not get paid, Possibly trouble with contractor with on site snow wizard wanting salt when not needed at a dusting and not slick etc.
> 
> How are you going to be paid? Invoice on the 1st and paid by 10 20 days or 120 day for you see any monies. What equipment do you plan on using? This is not a sole operation. Is this management co. local where you can handle non payment?
> 
> See if you can find out who was servicing them, Maybe you can get some info. We all get these calls from vendors time to time. I would use caution, You only have less than 30 days till end of season. We been advised to figure 800lb of salt per acre spread. Maybe I'm just ranting I don't go for this 3rd party stuff. maybe subbing for another contractor I know. Good Luck


They called looking for me to bid next year. They called me before we heard about the supposed 9" we were getting this weekend. That was just a coincidence.

They send out payment the 3rd week of the following month. The office is in Minnesota, and they manage 135 sites just like this all around the country.

I'm not concerned about this season. The initial call was for pricing for the '16-'17 season. The fact that the weatherman was calling for snow today was just a coincidence, they contacted me for next year's pricing before anyone even heard about this weekend.

Two trucks. 8' Western and 7.5' Fisher with wings. TGS07 sander. Since hearing from them I've been on the lookout for a dump or something with a V-box. Plenty out there in my price range, just need to start setting the money aside.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

24 hour all inclusive price...$2000....50%due before midnight!...sounds like they are putiing you on a limb


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Some kind of flake? I like to vacation as well as everybody else, I work hard and play hard. I left a Guy in charge to go to tiby Island years ago. Did not workout good even with people I trusted. If this was the case he deserved dismissal. Plenty of time between storms to take a little vacation.

I would not dare to send another contractor in with out communication with client and all liability's submitted to client of other contractor.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Go over your #'s again, You can take a shot with the NSP, See if your happy with the way they pay and if no one bothers you on site. If your not happy you can get dismissed like Former contractor. Good Luck


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

If you don't mind me asking, what's the property management company?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

They'll argee to anything cause they ain't going to pay you.

I would be very suspicious of the whole thing


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

BossPlow2010;2131439 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what's the property management company?


PM'd you.



1olddogtwo;2131452 said:


> They'll argee to anything cause they ain't going to pay you.
> 
> I would be very suspicious of the whole thing


If they give me the run around, I'll have no problem saying that you were right. They're name doesn't even appear on Plowsite, so that might actually be a good sign!


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

If your on long Island, you should be getting some snow tonight. Now if it sticks is another story. I'd tell them since it's a last minute call. There is a standby rate they have to pay if you don't get called out. Then see how they pay. I think your s little low on the higher snow totals.


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

Yeah, they changed the forecast in the last few hours. Back up to 3-5" by me. But it won't stick much. Maybe on the grass, but the pavement... Maybe 1/2-1" of stickage when it's all said and done.


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

Who is the management company from MN? There are a couple you should avoid.


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

ryde307;2133525 said:


> Who is the management company from MN? There are a couple you should avoid.


You've got a PM. I don't want to start throwing their name around publicly.

So, how much salt would I be looking to throw down on this site? Looking around the site, I've seen number from 1,000#/acre all the way to 1 ton/acre. That's a pretty vast range. Would a loaded 2-yard spreader get the job done without a refill?

On average, of course. I know temps and whatnot really dictate how much to use.

It turns out that this company was just awarded this particular site, so they couldn't give me info on the contractor who had it before me. Though the local facebook plowing page, I was able to find the name of a guy that used to service this place, but haven't been able to dig up any contact info. I'll be setting up an initial walkthrough in the coming weeks, so I'll grill the guys there for info.

I'm really interested in what his price points were at this site.

Thanks for the help so far. My gut says I'm too low overall, but I really don't know how much to up the numbers.


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

I'm still looking for advice on the salt. Despite having the spreader, I've never had to use it. Getting a rough idea of how much I'd expect to throw down would help me quote this.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mitragorz;2135983 said:


> I'm still looking for advice on the salt. Despite having the spreader, I've never had to use it. Getting a rough idea of how much I'd expect to throw down would help me quote this.


Just figure 800lbs per acre.


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

FredG;2135989 said:


> Just figure 800lbs per acre.


Thanks. I've searched and found numbers from 1,000# to 1 ton per acre.

So the whole lot is about 3 acres, so 2400lb... A yard of salt is about a ton, right? I know it depends on grain size and wetness... But a 2.5-yard or a heaped 2-yard spreader should do the job without a refill, right?


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

I can appreciate your asking a lot of questions, many if not all are elementary in their relationship to what you are attempting to propose. I am making a friendly comment and suggestion which is as follows; It appears you are not knowledgeable enough to pursue this opportunity. You may well end up over your head. Better to start small, learn your numbers and grow from experience and by the quality of work you hope to and will provide.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mitragorz;2135991 said:


> Thanks. I've searched and found numbers from 1,000# to 1 ton per acre.
> 
> So the whole lot is about 3 acres, so 2400lb... A yard of salt is about a ton, right? I know it depends on grain size and wetness... But a 2.5-yard or a heaped 2-yard spreader should do the job without a refill, right?


1 yard is 3000lb, 1 1/2 ton


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG;2136033 said:


> 1 yard is 3000lb, 1 1/2 ton


Not if it's straight salt.


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

Herm Witte;2136020 said:


> I can appreciate your asking a lot of questions, many if not all are elementary in their relationship to what you are attempting to propose. I am making a friendly comment and suggestion which is as follows; It appears you are not knowledgeable enough to pursue this opportunity. You may well end up over your head. Better to start small, learn your numbers and grow from experience and by the quality of work you hope to and will provide.


I do appreciate the concern! I've passed on a number of jobs in the past that I did feel were over my head. This one, I think, is a good starter for me. It's a low-key, low-traffic site that's pretty straight forward. I'm confident in my ability to provide the service, it's the pricing of the services that I'm worried about. I think this is a good candidate for a site to learn application rates, time-to-completion, etc... That will help me grow my little two-man, two-truck outfit into something to be proud of


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

FredG;2136033 said:


> 1 yard is 3000lb, 1 1/2 ton


I just realized that my I messed up my math above! I do know that 1 ton is NOT 1,000lb  For whatever reason, I had 1 yard = 1,000lb in my head and was concerned about refilling the spreader.

In that regard, 2 yards of salt should be plenty for this place, and would give me some reserve.



Mark Oomkes;2136036 said:


> Not if it's straight salt.


This place does want straight salt. I know the weights vary, wet vs dry, size of the grain, etc. I know I've seen a lot of numbers thrown around on here, people quoting SIMA and whatnot... If I remember correctly, I read that 1 yard to 1 ton was a pretty good ballpark average.

Thanks guys, this is exactly the discussion I was hoping for. It really is a big help.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Yes, a good average for straight salt is 1 yd=1ton. 

Anyways, 

First problem: national service provider
Second problem: 3" trigger.


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

Mark Oomkes;2136045 said:


> Yes, a good average for straight salt is 1 yd=1ton.
> 
> Anyways,
> 
> ...


I understand the dislike of NSP, but why the trigger?

Too high, leading to too few plowable events?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Too mulch liability under 3".


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2136036 said:


> Not if it's straight salt.


My bad, I'm doing take offs on stone and other materials right now.  :laughing:


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

It snows 2 inches, no call out. Snow gets packed down in spots. Next day, four inches, you are trying to scrape up all of it. Mooks can explain it better. Trigger is to high, just my opinion.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Don't know ur area and triggers vary from territories the territories just as the use of salt and sand. Either way, a 3 inch trigger is way to high. Here in Chicagoland, 1 inch is trigger, few are two. Plowing 3 inch off hard pack plus new snow is doable but be prepared for additional mechanical expenses (and dental work).


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## UltraLwn&Lndscp (Oct 20, 2013)

The advice in the thread, given today, is absolutely genuine and forth bearing.

Mitragorz, Take the advice to heart. It is true. 

I could not comprehend a 3 inch trigger on a commercial lot, other than a church. No need for me to reiterate the words written.


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

UltraLwn&Lndscp;2136184 said:


> The advice in the thread, given today, is absolutely genuine and forth bearing.
> 
> Mitragorz, Take the advice to heart. It is true.
> 
> I could not comprehend a 3 inch trigger on a commercial lot, other than a church. No need for me to reiterate the words written.


Absoultely! There was a lot of fantastic advice given in this thread, and I'm taking it all into consideration.

I wasn't very specific with the details of the site. I didn't want to go into too much detail, but I guess I can spill the beans a little more:

This isn't a true commercial lot, this is an Army National Guard facility. It's very, VERY low traffic. Not much coming-and-going. I'd guess that's the reason for the 3" trigger.

Knowing that, does that change anyone's opinion? You guys were probably thinking storefronts and people everywhere. Sorry about that. Opening myself up to the liabilities of strip malls isn't something I'm quite ready to do yet. That's why I think this is a good first site to pick up.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Mitragorz;2136348 said:


> Absoultely! There was a lot of fantastic advice given in this thread, and I'm taking it all into consideration.
> 
> I wasn't very specific with the details of the site. I didn't want to go into too much detail, but I guess I can spill the beans a little more:
> 
> ...


It would change my opinion on the liability..... slightly. Army guys can still slip and fall, and once lawyers get involved it's anybodys ballgame. My main issue would be amount of services in a season. I could fill that slot with other, higher priority lots and make triple the money. The hard pack issue that's been discussed is totally legit. I would take it at 2", and run it with my driveways though.


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