# Tax on rock salt? Do you pay it?



## JeffNY (Dec 19, 2005)

I always thought you could be tax exempt on something if your turning around and selling it to the consumer?
Every place I call for rocksalt says 'PLUS TAX'

One said no tax if I bring them a tax exempt form. Can I get one of those?

I did a search, but couldn't really find anything that stood out.

Thanks.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

i dont know how NY works but here you have to have a vendors lisence and that also where you get your tax exempt info from.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/1999/fillin/st/st120_699_fill_in.pdf

here is the form.A lot of places are refusing it now.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

JeffNY;620219 said:


> I always thought you could be tax exempt on something if your turning around and selling it to the consumer?
> Every place I call for rocksalt says 'PLUS TAX'
> 
> One said no tax if I bring them a tax exempt form. Can I get one of those?
> ...


Well if NY is the same as PA then you need to be a LEGIT. company with a EIN number. We just bought some salt and I had to give the company my paperwork with it on there, otherwise too bad I guess.


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## JeffNY (Dec 19, 2005)

Brian Young;620311 said:


> Well if NY is the same as PA then you need to be a LEGIT. company with a EIN number. We just bought some salt and I had to give the company my paperwork with it on there, otherwise too bad I guess.


yeah, I have all that good stuff. I have a feeling places won't take a tax exempt form because somehow more is getting in their pocket. worth a shot though.


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## JeffNY (Dec 19, 2005)

grandview;620307 said:


> http://www.tax.state.ny.us/pdf/1999/fillin/st/st120_699_fill_in.pdf
> 
> here is the form.A lot of places are refusing it now.


*"Contractors may not use this certificate to purchase materials or supplies"*

I guess that would be salt right?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I have it set up at my nursery for all my landscape supplies.


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## digit (Sep 15, 2005)

If you provide them with a resale certificate then you charge your customers and sent it to the state. I believe the resale cert. can be found on ny state web site.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

if you buy something and dont pay sales tax on it by being exempt you have to collect 6% or whatever by state you sell it for or whatever from your customer and pay it to the government. if you dont it is called a use tax and YOU have to pay it out of your pocket anyways for the amount you purchased it for.

the government gets their money no matter what. just pay it up front and dont sell a material to your customer just a service and that is how you get around it.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

If you're not tax exempt, you pay the tax. :realmad:


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

TCLA;620427 said:


> If you're not tax exempt, you pay the tax. :realmad:


and charge your customer accordingly!

6% =Michigan sales tax

if you buy a good for $1.00 and get charged for sales tax from the purchaser just collect $1.06 from your customer.

the only problem with that(from what i understand) is that you might end up paying income tax on the %6 sales tax at the end of the year. if you dont have a good tax guy that is.

if you are exempt and do not pay up front at the purchaser then you have to collect an extra 6% from your customer than pay it to the government for that product you are selling.

sales tax exempt is mainly for when you mark up a product. sometimes you can get in trouble with the tax man if you do not seperate your materials if you just include them in your service charge.

sorry guys thats all i can type for now im running out of time tonight. if you do not know these details already you really really need to pick up a book on business taxes and law.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

JeffNY;620219 said:


> I always thought you could be tax exempt on something if your turning around and selling it to the consumer?
> Every place I call for rocksalt says 'PLUS TAX'
> 
> One said no tax if I bring them a tax exempt form. Can I get one of those?
> ...


I called NY sales tax a few years on this.The thing is,if I remember the explanation correctly, is that when you sand/salt a driveway or lot,what you are basically doing is providing a service.All services are taxable--unless the contractor gets an exemption form.The sand or salt therefore,when you come with your sander to get loaded is taxable--no resale certs.apply,BUT--if you come with a dump truck{without a sander},if you qualify,a resale cert.can be used.Of course it's been my experience with those tax boys and girls in Albany that you hardly ever get the same answer from 2 different people.Any contractor who works in NY{and I'm sure many other states} is basically a revenue collector for the privilegeof working in the Empire state.


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## JeffNY (Dec 19, 2005)

tuney443;620584 said:


> I called NY sales tax a few years on this.The thing is,if I remember the explanation correctly, is that when you sand/salt a driveway or lot,what you are basically doing is providing a service.All services are taxable--unless the contractor gets an exemption form.The sand or salt therefore,when you come with your sander to get loaded is taxable--no resale certs.apply,BUT--if you come with a dump truck{without a sander},if you qualify,a resale cert.can be used.Of course it's been my experience with those tax boys and girls in Albany that you hardly ever get the same answer from 2 different people.Any contractor who works in NY{and I'm sure many other states} is basically a revenue collector for the privilegeof working in the Empire state.


So, if I charge someone $30 for a lawn, am I supposed to be charging tax on that? or is it "included"? 
I've heard some do, some don't


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

JeffNY;620874 said:


> So, if I charge someone $30 for a lawn, am I supposed to be charging tax on that? or is it "included"?
> I've heard some do, some don't


in new york i believe they have a service tax also, so yes technically you should be "collecting" tax for the services and for whatever you sell. if you dont collect it then you end up just paying it out of your pocket at the end of the year.

how long have you been in business? usally if they know you made money last year they will send you info on paying quarterly or whatever so you dont have to pay it all at once plus a fee at the end of the year.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

In good ol NJ we pay sales tax when we buy it, and collect it from the customer when we apply it.


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## ford6.9 (Aug 17, 2006)

The way it works in NY is sales tax goes onto any service that is maintenance of property, Landscaping such as patios driveways heck even new roofs, anything thats a capital improvement does not have tax. When you do a landscaping that is a capital improvement then you have to have the customer sign a form.....I don't have the form number off the top of my head ill pull it out of my desk tonight so you guys can have it when needed. Tax should be charged on top of the cost of the services and in order to do it the proper way you need to have a sales tax ID with the state "certificate of authority" 

So when you buy your salt you according to how i do with mulch provide the location your buying from with your tax ID number and they can then sell to you without tax. The only way you can swing that is if your charging per yard of salt and then separately charging for the service. They must be shown as separate items on the invoice.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

terrapro;620434 said:


> and charge your customer accordingly!
> 
> 6% =Michigan sales tax
> 
> ...


What he said.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

JeffNY;620874 said:


> So, if I charge someone $30 for a lawn, am I supposed to be charging tax on that? or is it "included"?
> I've heard some do, some don't


That's up to you,but if you're collecting sales tax, you need to register with the state for your authorization and you have to file either quarterly or annually and pony up.If you want $30 to cut that lawn,tack on your tax rate and show that on your invoice. $30 lawn cut,5% sales tax is $1.50--total--$31.50


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

ford6.9;620950 said:


> The way it works in NY is sales tax goes onto any service that is maintenance of property, Landscaping such as patios driveways heck even new roofs, anything thats a capital improvement does not have tax. When you do a landscaping that is a capital improvement then you have to have the customer sign a form.....I don't have the form number off the top of my head ill pull it out of my desk tonight so you guys can have it when needed. Tax should be charged on top of the cost of the services and in order to do it the proper way you need to have a sales tax ID with the state "certificate of authority"
> 
> So when you buy your salt you according to how i do with mulch provide the location your buying from with your tax ID number and they can then sell to you without tax. The only way you can swing that is if your charging per yard of salt and then separately charging for the service. They must be shown as separate items on the invoice.


It's form #ST-124,you can download them from the NY Sales tax site--very simple to use.I want to point out though that there are 3 criteria for being able to claim a job as a capital improvement.They are: as an addition or alteration to real property that: 1.substantially adds to the value of the real property-2.becomes part of the real property and 3.is intended to become a permanent installation. So basically,when Mrs.Smith is filling out that form where it asks to describe the capital improvement to be performed,you want to have her write ''new'',whatever it is you're doing,because repairs don't fall under a capital improvement.Repairs,no matter what it is,are taxable,unless you get some kind of exemption form,such as for a religious organization.


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## JeffNY (Dec 19, 2005)

terrapro;620900 said:


> in new york i believe they have a service tax also, so yes technically you should be "collecting" tax for the services and for whatever you sell. if you dont collect it then you end up just paying it out of your pocket at the end of the year.
> 
> how long have you been in business? usally if they know you made money last year they will send you info on paying quarterly or whatever so you dont have to pay it all at once plus a fee at the end of the year.


Less than a year officially.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

JeffNY;621661 said:


> Less than a year officially.


You are officially in business when you bill someone for the first time.


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## JeffNY (Dec 19, 2005)

ok, still less than a year. I didn't actually send anyone a bill last year. Mostly family and friends, last year was 'practice'


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

what get's me is EVERYONE AUGHT TO KNOW THIS.....but if you buy salt for $100 per ton and re-sale it to youre customer for $120 per ton......the state is gonna want thier tax on the $20  as well as the tax on the origional $100.

in MO, LABOR is UNTAXABLE!!!! so it depend's on how much labor and how much product you show

also...when i buy salt for my cattle feed.... it's not taxed .....so what would happen if my cows liked rock salt, and i had a LOT of cows  lol

PJ


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

powerjoke;621691 said:


> what get's me is EVERYONE AUGHT TO KNOW THIS.....but if you buy salt for $100 per ton and re-sale it to youre customer for $120 per ton......the state is gonna want thier tax on the $20  as well as the tax on the origional $100.
> 
> in MO, LABOR is UNTAXABLE!!!! so it depend's on how much labor and how much product you show
> 
> ...


You're mixing apples and oranges here.Income tax vs. sales tax--2 complete different animals.
If your cows ate salt and you could prove this {good luck},yeah,you wouldn't have to pay sales tax---you probably could also make a fortune with your newly discovered melting formula for ice coming out the other end of your salt eating cows.)


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

tuney443;621726 said:


> You're mixing apples and oranges here.Income tax vs. sales tax--2 complete different animals.
> If your cows ate salt and you could prove this {good luck},yeah,you wouldn't have to pay sales tax---you probably could also make a fortune with your newly discovered melting formula for ice coming out the other end of your salt eating cows.)


im not following, income versus sales tax? i did not pick up on any of that in his post.

income tax only applies to profit. that is how the deduction system works. if you bought your calf for $100 and sold it for $2000 then minus expenses and deductions you end up with $800 profit that is what gets charged income tax. if you spent $300 on salting your cows you would not pay tax of any form on that unless for some reason use tax plus deductions by state or fed.

anyone please correct me if im wrong!


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

tuney443;621726 said:


> You're mixing apples and oranges here.Income tax vs. sales tax--2 complete different animals.
> If your cows ate salt and you could prove this {good luck},yeah,you wouldn't have to pay sales tax---you probably could also make a fortune with your newly discovered melting formula for ice coming out the other end of your salt eating cows.)


huh ......is it a riddle?,......i'm not good at riddle's anyway, just tell me how you got that from my post ? lol



terrapro;621907 said:


> im not following, income versus sales tax? i did not pick up on any of that in his post.


Terra: lmao i am with ya pal. 

what i meant by that was......

Labor is not taxable, (terra i am glad you got it but i'll spell it out for him) if you send a bill for $520.....

and $120 of it is for salt that you paid $20 for
and $400 of it is for labor.
someone has to pay tax on $120 not the whole $520 amount....
now, if you don't have a tax I.D. number and all the other B/S (and you paid tax on the origional $100) and you charge tax for the $20 you are in a whole heap of trouble  (providing you get caught) but on the same token. if you Dont charge tax you are still breaking the rule's

but you do not and CANNOT charge tax on the $400 for labor

now, where income tax got confused with sales tax..........that's the part of tuney's riddle i am still trying to figure out lol

but the Salt Tax thing that i refeered to with the cow's.....a joke was all that was meant out of that, ie. farm related items is un SALES TAXABLE.....so if you could convince the GOV. and CARGILL that youre cow's eat 200 ton of rock salt in thier feed each year, ....That is the only way that i could see getting out of all parties paying sales tax

hope that cleared it up 

pj


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## ford6.9 (Aug 17, 2006)

I am glad this conversation is happening on here, maybe some will start to change the fact they don't charge sales tax. So when I put that in a bid I don't get looked at like I have 4 eyes.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

ford6.9;622105 said:


> I am glad this conversation is happening on here, maybe some will start to change the fact they don't charge sales tax. So when I put that in a bid I don't get looked at like I have 4 eyes.


Your in NY they know about sales tax. You could always bid with the sales tax included.


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## ford6.9 (Aug 17, 2006)

grandview;622275 said:


> Your in NY they know about sales tax. You could always bid with the sales tax included.


I thought so as well, shockingly many don't because there are so many business or guys out there mowing and plowing which have never charged it or registered with the state to pay. I have seen several people who have been in business over 20 years and never paid or charged sales tax. And if I include it into my bid price and the other person isn't charging it then I am sucking up that % out of my net. My net is already low enough ill just keep bidding and get the ones I get slowly but on a steady note.


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## bigearl (Jun 11, 2007)

I charge sales tax for everything. As far as salt I am reselling it so I use a resale cert so NYS doesnt collect tax on the product twice. Dont know if it is right or wrong but that is what I do. and thats all I got to say about that.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

''huh ......is it a riddle?,......i'm not good at riddle's anyway, just tell me how you got that from my post ? lol''

No Powerjoke--not a riddle at all--just didn't understand your meaning---when you mentioned the $20 profit,I just thought you were jumping from sales tax to income tax.That's all.


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

tuney443;621252 said:


> That's up to you,but if you're collecting sales tax, you need to register with the state for your authorization and you have to file either quarterly or annually and pony up.If you want $30 to cut that lawn,tack on your tax rate and show that on your invoice. $30 lawn cut,5% sales tax is $1.50--total--$31.50


NY sales tax is 8.125%.
Yes service are taxable, it's your choice if you want to include it or not, as long as you pay it to the state in the end.

In NY capitol improvement are taxable, the home owner can then request a form from you and deduct those taxes paid to you form their income tax.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Pennings Garden;623590 said:


> NY sales tax is 8.125%.
> Yes service are taxable, it's your choice if you want to include it or not, as long as you pay it to the state in the end.
> 
> In NY capitol improvement are taxable, the home owner can then request a form from you and deduct those taxes paid to you form their income tax.


Every county in NY has a different sales tax rate.Dutchess,for example, is 8.125%,Putnam is 8.375%,etc.Capital improvements,as I already stated,as long as they qualify,are most definitely NOT taxable.A contractor however is under no obligation to provide a client with any exemption form--I do it simply as a nice gesture--no law says I have to though.


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## ServiceOnSite (Nov 23, 2006)

tuney443;624016 said:


> Every county in NY has a different sales tax rate.Dutchess,for example, is 8.125%,Putnam is 8.375%,etc.Capital improvements,as I already stated,as long as they qualify,are most definitely NOT taxable.A contractor however is under no obligation to provide a client with any exemption form--I do it simply as a nice gesture--no law says I have to though.


X2 on that. i do concrete work during the summer months. when i install concrete no tax. capital improvment. and like tuney said nice jesture if you give them the form. you dont have to. if say i go to someones house and pressurewash and seal there stamped concrete. i have to charge sales tax on the final bill say..... 275 plus tax. 
its a service. just like plowing and salting a drive way. your charging for the service which is labor and collecting sales tax on the final number. and in erie county ends up being .
.0875%


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

tuney443;624016 said:


> Every county in NY has a different sales tax rate.Dutchess,for example, is 8.125%,Putnam is 8.375%,etc.Capital improvements,as I already stated,as long as they qualify,are most definitely NOT taxable.A contractor however is under no obligation to provide a client with any exemption form--I do it simply as a nice gesture--no law says I have to though.


I'll look into the capitol improvement tax, I hope you're right, if so, my bad!!


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Pennings Garden;624436 said:


> I'll look into the capitol improvement tax, I hope you're right, if so, my bad!!


Jordy---look at it this way---why would the sales tax dep't call it something special--a capital improvement,if by the name alone,if there wasn't something special about it such as being exempt from sales tax---it's a no-brainer.Now, if you're worried you collected the sales tax from a client who's job qualified under the capital improvement regs.,and you already filed and payed that tax to NY,I wouldn't worry about it---it's not like you're going to get in trouble from over-paying.If you report it now,you might be opening a real bad can of worms.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

you have to charge sales tax for all phases of snowplowing, salting/snow removal/snow plowing/sidewalks...anything and eveyrhting to do with plowing, unless the customer is exempt, i.e. i plow a health center which part of the hospital.

if you plow driveways, the best way to avoid sales tax is have your customers pay in cash and dont show anything on your financial books (for those of you that have them). That's what i explained to some of my commercial lots, that if they pay cash i can save them money.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

You might want to be careful about asking for cash on a regular basis,especially from commercial clients.If for any reason,one of them turns on you for whatever reason and reports you for retribution to the IRS for evasion of income taxes,you will be so screwed.Besides saving a few bucks on a cash deal,why would any bonafide business owner do this since they wouldn't be able to write the expense off?????????????????/


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

that's true, but if they pay cash and i dont show them on my books, they cant really prove a transaction ever occurred. besides, i wouldnt recommend doing this with commercial properties, do it with private homeowners. i just happened to find two commercial properties that wanted to do it this way, so im not going to balk or anything, i could careless as long as we get paid. generally i just keep the cash and give it to my guys for bonuses.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

redman6565;625564 said:


> that's true, but if they pay cash and i dont show them on my books, they cant really prove a transaction ever occurred. besides, i wouldnt recommend doing this with commercial properties, do it with private homeowners. i just happened to find two commercial properties that wanted to do it this way, so im not going to balk or anything, i could careless as long as we get paid. generally i just keep the cash and give it to my guys for bonuses.


I hear what you're saying--BUT---if the IRS senses a red flag,they can make a visit to the proctologist seem like a walk in the park.Oh yeah--that would be without lube.Just be careful there NY brother.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

thanks for the visual haha


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

redman6565;624910 said:


> you have to charge *sales tax *for all phases of snowplowing, salting/snow removal/snow plowing/sidewalks...anything and eveyrhting to do with plowing, unless the customer is exempt, i.e. i plow a health center which part of the hospital.
> 
> if you plow driveways, the best way to avoid sales tax is have your customers pay in cash and dont show anything on your financial books (for those of you that have them). That's what i explained to some of my commercial lots, that if they pay cash i can save them money.


first of all its a service tax not sales. its called that because its a tax on "services" not on sales. now if you were "selling" something it would be sales tax.

second, those taxes are state to state. us here in michigan dont have to collect a tax on services only sales. use tax, sales tax, service tax, etc they are all regulated by the state you are in.

you are definately giving bad advice in your post. tax crimes are pretty serious offenses.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

well first off...JeffNY is from NY, not you, and around here, its called SALES TAX. our state doesnt give a f*** about what we want to call, it falls under SALES TAX. i file SALES TAX reports quarterly for my snowplowing, landscaping, parking lot sweeping, topsoil sales, stone sales and whatever else.

secondly, i would know all about tax and nys, hell i just got audited for 5 years worth of sales tax reporting and they looked at everything down to 4 yard topsoil deliveries. But the state cannot track cash sales if you dont record anything. they cant, they have no evidence, if the job never existed, if invoices werent recorded, if payments never were made to you, they cant track it. im not telling him to go run and operate and illegal business, so dont sound like a jacka$$, but if he has a customer or two that would prefer to save a little money, then do it, just be smart about it. if Jeff chooses not to, then he doesnt have, it was only a suggestion from the question he asked.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

''first of all its a service tax not sales. its called that because its a tax on "services" not on sales. now if you were "selling" something it would be sales tax. ''

You are so wrong here.It is the sale of a service,there is no such thing in NY as a ''service tax''.Like redman said,plowing is a taxable service that falls under the NYS Sales Tax Dep't.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

tuney443;626422 said:


> ''first of all its a service tax not sales. its called that because its a tax on "services" not on sales. now if you were "selling" something it would be sales tax. ''
> 
> You are so wrong here.It is the sale of a service,there is no such thing in NY as a ''service tax''.Like redman said,plowing is a taxable service that falls under the NYS Sales Tax Dep't.


i did look that up and i am wrong. the tax on service or sales is all considered sales tax. i apologize redman.

but like i said it ranges from state to state and here in MI we would call it a service tax.

tax evasion is still a crime though


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

JeffNY;620874 said:


> So, if I charge someone $30 for a lawn, am I supposed to be charging tax on that? or is it "included"?
> I've heard some do, some don't


It's up to you. I don't charge my customers sales tax, even though I could. But I still pay it to the state.


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## scoopdog (Jan 7, 2008)

if you are out of state and not using the salt companies trucks you do not pay tax due to the fax that it is out of state and you have a bill of lading from a outside trucking company.


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