# I anyone here a CSP?



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Wondering if anyone here is a CSP or is thinking about challenging the test?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Maybe you and JD can truck pool to class?tymusic


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

whats a CSP?


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

Seriously, what's a CSP? 

Certified Snow Plower?

Conn. State Police?


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Certified Snow Professional


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

where do i take the test


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

www.sima.org


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I've thought about it, you sure could learn alot while doing it.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

yes I am took it in buffalo, retook part in conn. The test has more to do with business, & science, than mechanics of running a plow.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

So Dave... we on?


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

JohnnyRoyale;583491 said:


> So Dave... we on?


To become a CSP LOL You've probably forgotten more then I know about snow. I don't think you'll have a problem getting certified but I'm not sure farmer's are allowed.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

You have GOT to be kidding me

Are you serious? 

this certification stuff is WAY out of hand. (and it's not just this, software has tons of it, so does landscaping)


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

LoneCowboy;583499 said:


> You have GOT to be kidding me
> 
> Are you serious?
> 
> this certification stuff is WAY out of hand. (and it's not just this, software has tons of it, so does landscaping)


It's actually quite hard to get and you learn alot about running a large snow buisness. The bigger you get the more headaches you have and the more you know the better off you'll be. Knowledge is never something I roll my eyes at.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

It seems like it would be great for marketing your company, being able to say that your a CSP. I've thought about it, but will probibly never do it.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

if there is some type of test i want to take it just for kicks. anyone have a link JUST FOR THE TEST for it. i dont want to jump through hoops or sign up for anything just take a snow test.


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

A test for snow plowing professional. Come on lets get serious. The test is more than likely b.s. Along with most other tests and licenses. Not that I am against it. But the licenses are to broad. I could show you how to efficiently and quickly plow any lot with no complaints. Ive been doing this for 14 years in a truck/equipment. But I bet i would FAIL the damn test. 

Im a Remodeling contractor all summer. I bet 75% of my customers ask if im licensed and bonded. I tell them that I am, The truth is I am not, There is no license for what I do. And Bonding happens at the city/town level, and thats only for certain types of work. Some people just dont know any better.

I can plow snow and salt a parking lot with the best of contractors, I know that sounds bad, But im not afraid to say it. But ill be damn'd if I got to take a test to prove it......


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

BNC SERVICES;583688 said:


> A test for snow plowing professional. Come on lets get serious. The test is more than likely b.s. Along with most other tests and licenses. Not that I am against it. But the licenses are to broad. I could show you how to efficiently and quickly plow any lot with no complaints. Ive been doing this for 14 years in a truck/equipment. But I bet i would FAIL the damn test.
> 
> Im a Remodeling contractor all summer. I bet 75% of my customers ask if im licensed and bonded. I tell them that I am, The truth is I am not, There is no license for what I do. And Bonding happens at the city/town level, and thats only for certain types of work. Some people just dont know any better.
> 
> I can plow snow and salt a parking lot with the best of contractors, I know that sounds bad, But im not afraid to say it. But ill be damn'd if I got to take a test to prove it......


I totally agree but I think the test deals with alot of buisiness aspects, insurance, tendering , ice control, not just plowing. I will probably end up doing this test in the next few years just for fun. I wish some one who's done the test would speak up and tell us more of what's it about.


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## OBRYANMAINT (May 20, 2001)

i got the "recomended study material" and will take the test whenever is is close to me....i plan on gaining more in the process than what i will get by saying i am a csp....i agree with some of the above posts....these nameplates are kinda goofy and dont mean what theyare supposed to,and if a bunch of plow guys on a plowing website dont know what it is than a propery manager sure wont...i am nonethe less studying for it...have not read much of the books yet i got them in a package in buffalo...remember it being kind of expensive 2 or 3 hundred?


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

The test I took was 500 questions. Seven sections marketing, business, human resourse mgmt,snow & ice operations, snow & ice science, subcontractors. In order to take it (as an owner) I needed reference letters from clients as well. Deals with the laws, theoies (college stuff kinda) & government ends of business as much as if not more than snowplowing. Costs about $ 300 for the study books, $ 350 to take it, if you fail a section you can retake that section for $ 75 each section. I feel it was time & money well spent thus far. You also need to do continueing education. I did learn ALOT as far as subcontracting laws, terms, etc. SIMA has evolved alot thru the years & contiues to get better, the resouces they currently have avaliabe are great, I'm happy I re-joined last year.

This industry is evolving, it is becoming more techincal (ice melting especially), the tolerances for snow in society are becoming less, I have seen it since I started in 1995. The contracts/bids clients send out haven't kept up with the expectations, it has change that fast. As we (as an industry) progess the larger clients are going to start looking for more services & options, bugets, certification is just one of those things. Certification is not for everyone, if you going to serve the dinner down the street & some residentials, it may not be for you, if your looking to serve 10 acre+ lots, that require clear pavement 24/7 it probably is. It all depends on where you want to take your business, if it is a sideline to a remodeling business, then it may not be your thing. 

For me snow constitues 60+ % of my business, within 5 years I hope it's all I do year round. The numbers for landscape maintence are getting harder to make work. Being at Mother Nature's becon call 52 weeks a year wears on you. I have a family with 3 boys I want to spend time with, plan vacations, etc.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Well said Mike. I hope to take the test next year, I think its very important. My goals are very similar.
Paul


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

RLM;583715 said:


> The test I took was 500 questions. Seven sections marketing, business, human resourse mgmt,snow & ice operations, snow & ice science, subcontractors. In order to take it (as an owner) I needed reference letters from clients as well. Deals with the laws, theoies (college stuff kinda) & government ends of business as much as if not more than snowplowing. Costs about $ 300 for the study books, $ 350 to take it, if you fail a section you can retake that section for $ 75 each section. I feel it was time & money well spent thus far. You also need to do continueing education. I did learn ALOT as far as subcontracting laws, terms, etc. SIMA has evolved alot thru the years & contiues to get better, the resouces they currently have avaliabe are great, I'm happy I re-joined last year.
> 
> This industry is evolving, it is becoming more techincal (ice melting especially), the tolerances for snow in society are becoming less, I have seen it since I started in 1995. The contracts/bids clients send out haven't kept up with the expectations, it has change that fast. As we (as an industry) progess the larger clients are going to start looking for more services & options, bugets, certification is just one of those things. Certification is not for everyone, if you going to serve the dinner down the street & some residentials, it may not be for you, if your looking to serve 10 acre+ lots, that require clear pavement 24/7 it probably is. It all depends on where you want to take your business, if it is a sideline to a remodeling business, then it may not be your thing.
> 
> For me snow constitues 60+ % of my business, within 5 years I hope it's all I do year round. The numbers for landscape maintence are getting harder to make work. Being at Mother Nature's becon call 52 weeks a year wears on you. I have a family with 3 boys I want to spend time with, plan vacations, etc.


I agree also, there's so much I don't know and this is just one of the ways to learn.


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

I agree with Mike on this.

I would also like to take the test


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

I think it may offer a lot as far as learning, but as far as being a selling point, I don't think it is there yet. I don't think that any of my property managers would have a clue what SIMA is. They have only barely heard of Landscape Ontario and have no clue what they do as well.

We are not members of LO, but will most likely at some point in the future for the sticker and networking. As far as selling, I don't think these "industry unions" do much for selling.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Maybe they don't know yet, but they are starting to. I like to be ahead of the game, no be playing catch up.

Also once you become a CSP you have to keep getting educated, and continue to help others in the SIMA organization. If not you will have to retest in 3 years. Thats what I like so much about SIMA, its not just about being a member. Its about helping others, and helping to create a more professional Snow and Ice management image. There are still many people who thing we are just a bunch of dumb hicks you will work for beer money.
I know I just opened a can of worms there.
I run a serious business, and want to be informed in all aspects of Snow and Ice management. SIMA will help go a long way in achieving this goal.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

No offense, but if your motivations for joining an association is to get a sticker, you may want to save yourself the dues, and have your truck decal printer make one for you. 

I personally think the lack of respect in general for the industry can be elevated by association, and weather or not a CSP means anything to a little old lady who cant shovel her own driveway is irrelevant. Reality is, many municipalities, and public entites, and the whos who in the proeprty management game have already adopted pre-requisites such as having a CHT or CIT, CLP on staff to even qualify your company to bid on their landscape projects. The same will happen in the snow industry. Ask yourself how many property managers are requesting IPM be practiced on their properties- I see it all the time. None of these fancy acronyms existed 10, 7 or even 5 years ago. 

If we want to elevate the lack of respect we get from being a part of this industry, we have to group, educate, and validate our knowledge. Reality is we are an essential service, no different than the police, fire or paramedic. Businesses, citys, and the little old lady who cant get out of her house to go get her dentures fixed all equally depend on us. If we're not doing what were doing, they sure as fluck arent either!

Alot of us (including me) complain about the low entry fees into this business, and complain that they lost another job to a low-baller who had no concept of the work entailed and blew us out of the water. Maybe, just maybe, this designation requirement will level the playing field, and group you with other professionals when bidding snow work who truly uderstand the business and management side and not only the production side of the business. . 

Many of us see ambitious young guys getting into the business on borrowed funds and dreams, (which was me 15 years ago). I sometimes think of how much futher ahead I would be today and how many mistakes I wouldnt have made without the knowledge and networking an association would have provided. I am lucky enough to say I have been there and done that (and no I dont know it all and realize I have alot to learn) and still kicking-many aren't. My biggest financial gains in life have come from this industry, and I think its time to give a little back.

For me, becoming a CSP is something I want to do, not only for personal or financial gain, (and at the risk of sounding like a Martin Luther King), but to also help elevate the industry to the professional recognition it deserves.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm a certified P.P.O (professional plow operator) my organization (L.O.P.O.A.),is giving a test for $50 bucks.
You get a fancy sticker and a t-shirt and a diploma to hang on the wall for your office.
Now you can tell your customers your pro.

We are, you are, not in the same category as police, fire or ems.
Plowing snow is not an emergency service.


Just because you pass a test does not mean you can apply any of these theories in the real world.

No offense, jmo...


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

As usual, everyones entitled to their own opinion and I was just stating mine. As the saying goes, there are no Chiefs without any Indians. A CSP will need many PPO's to run a succesful snow and ice management business-its apparent you've decided which one you want to be. Good luck brother-we all can't be Chiefs.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

funny....
I've owned my snow business for 27 years.
I get out way more than I put in.
It's not rocket science...


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

SnoFarmer;584545 said:


> funny....
> I've owned my snow business for 27 years.
> I get out way more than I put in.
> It's not rocket science...


It's not rocket science but when you start bidding on 40 acre malls, and a city block of industrial buildings that want everything included for the whole season, it's sure seems like it.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

SnoFarmer;584528 said:


> I'm a certified P.P.O (professional plow operator) my organization (L.O.P.O.A.),is giving a test for $50 bucks.
> You get a fancy sticker and a t-shirt and a diploma to hang on the wall for your office.
> Now you can tell your customers your pro.
> 
> ...


To some extent. AGREED



JohnnyRoyale;584532 said:


> As usual, everyones entitled to their own opinion and I was just stating mine. As the saying goes, there are no Chiefs without any Indians. A CSP will need many PPO's to run a succesful snow and ice management business-its apparent you've decided which one you want to be. Good luck brother-we all can't be Chiefs.


Think your a little off base here. Lots of people with college degrees out there that arent worth a damn. Every individual is different. A high school dropout could hire college grads and a csp just as easy.



JD Dave;584564 said:


> It's not rocket science but when you start bidding on 40 acre malls, and a city block of industrial buildings that want everything included for the whole season, it's sure seems like it.


I like your approach. Willing to keep learning Im kind of the same way. Tell you a secret though YOUR ALREADY THERE. Your already doing it so you and the many like you show that a license isnt a need or requirement to run a successful business.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

haha, I don't think I would waste the time for a printer.

I understand what you are saying, but you have to know where I am coming from.

LO doesn't do alot for property maintenance, which is pretty much all we do. Any landscaping that comes from it we would get anyway if the price was right, not because of LO. I have never heard of a Property Manager asking for any accredidation in Townhouse Condo's.

I know that there are alot of good industry forums out there, but I have yet to see it from the other side. Granted I don't deal in government bidding, so that is most likely the main reason. When we did bid some school boards a few years ago I became jaded due to the crazy cheap price that they went for.

I think that LO has alot of work to do bringing up the industry, and I think that once I start seeing that from the outside I will be more likely to be interested to be on the inside.

I agree with you that our industry needs respect, getting rid of the drugs, drunks, and uninsured is something that I would rather see.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Pristine PM ltd;584609 said:


> I agree with you that our industry needs respect, getting rid of the drugs, drunks, and uninsured is something that I would rather see.


well that pretty well bars all of us from snow removal.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

bribrius;584589 said:


> To some extent. AGREED
> 
> Did that concern you as much as it did me?
> 
> ...


Dam, again with the agreeing thing...
Your allready there JD



bribrius;584611 said:


> well that pretty well bars all of us from snow removal.


w.t.f .....again? If we keep this up We'll have to be on each others friends list...


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Not everyone is going to see the value of challenging the CSP exam, and being accredited-and thats fine.

I do agree that anyone with some kind of ethic, and smarts, (whether street or school) can be succesful. 

I don't agree with undervaluing the service we provide, and truly believe we are no different than an essential/emergency service. Nobody can do anything after a storm if we havent been there first. Hell, if the roads, driveways, apartments, shopping centres, factories, airports, post offices, schools, whatever, dont get cleared of snow...nothing happens! Everything stops. That would classify snow and ice management as an essential/emergency service in my opinion.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

and yet they take away our blue lights!


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

Knowledge is great, but having to pay some guys in New York 300 dollars for some stickers, a card, a magazine, and a title no ones ever heard of seems silly imo.

Running a large snow operation is a lot more involved than running plows, or selling the odd contract.

You simply cant add three letters to your name or buy the kind of professionalism, knowledge, and experience that is gonna impress anyone.

Sima and the landscape associations are businesses......In business to sell a product. 

Memberships.

Im not belittiling their good intentions and Im sure they provide a decent product for the money they charge, but lets keep it real.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

JohnnyRoyale;584710 said:


> Not everyone is going to see the value of challenging the CSP exam, and being accredited-and thats fine.
> 
> I do agree that anyone with some kind of ethic, and smarts, (whether street or school) can be succesful.
> I agree with you on this.
> ...


But please don't put your self in the same class as the Police, Fire and EMS.
Plowing is a convenience maybe even an nasesatey but surely not an emergency when an inch or even 6 inches falls...

In 99.0 % of snow falls ( I pulled that # out of my a$s) 
The emergency vehicles can & do respond just fine, they even do way out in the sticks with out the roads being plowed for days after a snow fall.

Heck, it takes them 2 to 3 days to clear all of your streets after a snowfall.
In my neck of the woods the police fire ems all have 4x4s 4 wheelers sno-mobiles. to use to respond.
It is not an emergency because you have to go shopping at the mall.

Everyone around hear owns a 4 wheel vehicle so snow is just another inconvenience.

I guess it just snows to often around hear to declare it an emergency.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

I don't know, years ago Toronto called in the army, after a snow storm.
I do know that I service my clients better than most muni or dot. It seams that most of my clients don't care about the road conditions, but want their parkings down to bare asphalt at all times. Ready for any crazy shopper who just has to go out and buy that useless item, in the middle of a major snow storm. Hell some mornings the radio is saying to stay of the roads, and their lined up at 7:50 am to get into Walmart.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

First an off topic post. Isn't it great to see how much bribrius has grown over the last year. Even SnoFarmer is agreeing with him. He was like a plow site child when he first joined. Yelling and screaming that he knew everything. Now he is somewhere in his teens. He is still wrong most of the time, but has glimmers of knowledge. What wisdom will he bestow on us when he is all grown up? I can't wait.

On topic
Do you have to be CSP to join SIMA?

I used to be ASE certified and Michigan state certified to repair vehicles. Most of my customers knew what ASE represented. Michigan keeps the Shade Tree mechanics from working on cars for money by requiring certification.

ASE has different levels of certification. You could be certified in engine repair, but not brakes. If you had several of them, you would be ASE Master Certified.

Do I want that for snow plowing? Maybe. It would at least set a base line of knowledge that someone must have in order to make money plowing. Insurance would be a requirement. DOT # would be a requirement. Drivers license & at least 18 years old would be a requirement. Some billing & business management thrown in with some safety education would be nice.

I think if there was a volunteer certification for say under a $75, that covered the above material, a lot more people would do it. I think it would be good for our industry.

Most people can plow their driveway. Most people can mow their grass. It is just easier for them to hire someone else to do it for them. Snow removal service is not rocket science. Bidding or estimating does not take an engineering degree. We get paid to push stuff out of the way to make it easier on our customers. May - October it’s not that important of a service where police, fire and ambulance service is.

I think people don't take our industry seriously because it is not a full time job. Yes, most appreciate what we do. Most complain when it is not done. But to the un-educated, we drive around in a truck only when it snows. They don't realize the investment, maintenance, time and knowledge required to move 4" of snow on the off chance is snows.

Having a volunteer, city, state, or federal certification that the general public recognized would help our industry.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Neige;584841 said:


> I don't know, years ago Toronto called in the army, after a snow storm.
> I do know that I service my clients better than most muni or dot. It seams that most of my clients don't care about the road conditions, but want their parkings down to bare asphalt at all times. Ready for any crazy shopper who just has to go out and buy that useless item, in the middle of a major snow storm. Hell some mornings the radio is saying to stay of the roads, and their lined up at 7:50 am to get into Walmart.


Hey Paul, nice website if you can read french.


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

JD Dave;584993 said:


> Hey Paul, nice website if you can read french.


There's a button to click in the upper right hand corner for English


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;584993 said:


> Hey Paul, nice website if you can read french.


You ought to try talking to him on the phone.  Still not sure what he called me when he answered.

I have mixed feelings on the CSP thing. Paul and JD make excellent points, but so does SF and even brib.

What truly scared me is that last week I was at a liquid de-icing seminar and it was stated by the vendor that SIMA wants\is pushing for anyone who applies de-icers to be certified just like for pesticide apps. They used the CSP designation for this certification.

As a charter member of SIMA, I would fight this, that would be absolute BS to have every one of my operators become certified to apply salt.

Let's hope it's just someone's pipe dream.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

Mark, I agree about the cerification to apply lquid (or ganular for that mater) ice melt. Most of the CSP I believe are owners, managers, sales type people, not the truck driver doing an application. This is the first I've heard of it.
Honestly after taking the test, it has very little for the guy driving the truck/ equipment, etc. A class would be more approrite, but requiring it??? How. Maybe stressing the effects after the application, the varing amounts of de-icer with moisture content, etc. After seeing most of the guys that work for the large companies I don't they understand anything more than "go to this lot & spread salt". Chances are indusry wide 99.99 % of the drivers wouldn't see the class or comprehend in anyways.
I do however think that the general public is becoming more aware of envirnmental issues (especially water) in general & damage/ concquences from our applications I'm sure will follow. I'm in a uniqe situation as I am still small enough I do all my own salt apps. Even with growth I'll be in that position for awhile. 
It comes down to marketing your company & how you do it.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Camden;584994 said:


> There's a button to click in the upper right hand corner for English


I clicked it a few times too-still french. Your 'fondre la neige' service looks interesting.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

JD Dave;584993 said:


> Hey Paul, nice website if you can read french.


Hey JD, and Johnny being from Canada you must be bilingual.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Sorry Paul, I didn't see any translated four letter expletives or reference to a little box found in catholic churches on your site. That about sums up the extent of my french.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Neige;585044 said:


> Hey JD, and Johnny being from Canada you must be bilingual.


Took french untill gr 10, havn't spoke a word since. I think I need a french tutor, preferably from Montreal!


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

SnoFarmer;584823 said:


> But please don't put your self in the same class as the Police, Fire and EMS.
> Plowing is a convenience maybe even an nasesatey but surely not an emergency when an inch or even 6 inches falls...
> 
> B.S. Say what ya like around here society has no clue how to handle snow, God forbid we get hardpacked roads School Buss's don't move either here on 3" of snow, to much liability. I wonder how they treat Snow at EVERY major airport in this country, mild inconvenience ?
> ...


One great thing about this country is you can run your business how ever you want. There are many different levels of service that can be performed. You can plow snow, or manage 
snow and Ice, there's a big difference.

For those that See the business as "Plowin" a CSP Certificate will be a waste of time and money. For those that realize knowledge is the key to everything, your head wont explode because you know to much, and bettering yourself with Education really is a good thing, then becoming a CSP might just be for you.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

T-MAN;586160 said:


> One great thing about this country is you can run your business how ever you want. There are many different levels of service that can be performed. You can plow snow, or manage
> snow and Ice, there's a big difference.
> 
> For those that See the business as "Plowin" a CSP Certificate will be a waste of time and money. For those that realize knowledge is the key to everything, your head wont explode because you know to much, and bettering yourself with Education really is a good thing, then becoming a CSP might just be for you.


Just because the garbage man calls him self a Dr.of Garbagelogy.
he is is still the garbage man.
A Pig is still a pig even with makeup on.
You can educate your self,why do you need a self governing club to do it?
Just become you have a "csp" does not make you a good business man, or a
Dr. of snowoligy.

call it what you want.....

A business class at the local community collage will cost you much less.
Want to learn about ice controll? Well, If you have accesses to the internet then all of the info you need is at your finger tips.

t-man, those heavy fire trucks can go through more snow than your pick-up can...
I guess if your police, fire & EMS do not have the proper vehicles to respond in the snow Then they must not see it as an emergency.
Some places even put snow plows on the school buss.
I know crazy......

To much liability for a school bus to travel in 3" of snow?
Yet, they still haul kids around in busses don't have seat belts or air bags. Come on......
So if the kids are at school and it snows3" there stranded at school?

As for your client comment,
I have said it before everyone and their brother-in-law has a plow truck.
Most plow for beer money, I mean they plow there own drive and family friends and there neighbors. My biggest customer owns his own plow truck and bobcat.
Most of them do not want to get up and go plowing at 1am.or deal with it when a storm hits.

ps. If snow removal, plowing, snow & ice management was truly an emergency we would be all licensed by our state and we would be running red lights instead of amber.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

SnoFarmer;586168 said:


> Just because the garbage man calls him self a Dr.of Garbagelogy.
> he is is still the garbage man.
> A Pig is still a pig even with makeup on.
> You can educate your self,why do you need a self governing club to do it?Why not ? Do you belong to any self governing groups ? Hope not...
> ...


So how many bad business men in the Snow business with CSP credentials do you know ? Have you ever been to a Sima event ? Ya theres a few bad apples, but 99% of theCSP's out there are good friendly people looking to help out others in this industry. 
Whens the last time you did something positive to help anyone in the industry ? 
I mean REALLY help someone out, not set your beer down so you can type out what the best tire is for plowing, or how a gas truck can out push a diesel truck, then grin give yourself an atta boy and say 19000 posts, its good to be Sno King.

It never seizes to amaze me how people hide behind a screen and bash people that they know so little about. Or bash an organization that is trying to better the industry for ALL to benefit.
No one said you need to like Sima, there CSP program, and those involved in it, but you sure the heck dont need to talk smack about something you know squat about.
Sima's a good thing, it really is.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

T-MAN;586590 said:


> So how many bad business men in the Snow business with CSP credentials do you know ? Have you ever been to a Sima event ? Ya theres a few bad apples, but 99% of theCSP's out there are good friendly people looking to help out others in this industry.
> Whens the last time you did something positive to help anyone in the industry ?
> I mean REALLY help someone out, not set your beer down so you can type out what the best tire is for plowing, or how a gas truck can out push a diesel truck, then grin give yourself an atta boy and say 19000 posts, its good to be Sno King.
> 
> ...


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looks like the same argument we had last year on if snow and ice are a emergency.

i think the answer depends on exactly how much snow and ice.

years ago they dragged heavy crap over snow with horses to pack it down. they didnt even plow it.
over the years society developed and along with it came a big investment in infrastructure, police, fire, medical.

society changes so the expectations changed as the need for mobility escalated to keep up.
the town trucks plow the roads. they dont consider it a emergency they just keep up with it. keep the roads passable for emergency personal and to keep society moving.
private lots, public lots, dont think they are a emergency either.

but in a society where just in time delivery, open 24 hours, and lawyers looking to sue someone are rampant i can see why you always push emergency service and your customers tend to be concerned.
it is a change in society as we argued last year.
so is it a emergency? here in maine it wouldnt be a emergency unless a road was completly impassable and a ambulance had to get through.
think it all depends on who your talking too and how important it is to them having their area of the world clean of snow and ice. 
There will always be people on the roads during snow storms unless there is too much snow for them to drive through.
Doesnt matter if the weather man tells them to stay home. where is the weather man? hes at work. so these people have to go to work too.
if you plow the mall. they will still go to the mall. 
But lots and lots of snow and ice. Impassable weather conditions such as blizzards in history, maybe the ice storm years back. these i would consider a emergency since there is a likley and imminent danger of many people freezing to death, not getting medical treatment, or possibly starving.
like i said. depends on HOW MUCH snow and ice i would guess, and how much your area of the world can deal with snow and your part of the society depends on mobility.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

bribrius;586594 said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> i think the answer depends on exactly how much snow and ice.
> 
> ...


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

T-MAN;586590 said:


> So how many bad business men in the Snow business with CSP credentials do you know ? Have you ever been to a Sima event ? Ya theres a few bad apples, but 99% of theCSP's out there are good friendly people looking to help out others in this industry.
> Whens the last time you did something positive to help anyone in the industry ?
> I mean REALLY help someone out, not set your beer down so you can type out what the best tire is for plowing, or how a gas truck can out push a diesel truck, then grin give yourself an atta boy and say 19000 posts, its good to be Sno King.
> 
> ...


Thanks Todd, thats been my experience also. Real honest help, and caring that you succeed. It like anything else in life, the more you put in to it the more you get out of it.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;584995 said:


> SIMA wants\is pushing for anyone who applies de-icers to be certified just like for pesticide apps. They used the CSP designation for this certification.
> .


I think the CSP is a good thing, helps change the perception of the professionalism of the business, but do we need more government intervention. It would definitely raise snow removal prices . We'll all have to pay for Sima Certification, and probably for a applicators license, lose at least 8 hours a year per man for "re-training/recertification, and the paperwork could double the time spent applying material. It will also raise the cost of material as the suppliers will have to track the who, what and where they sold material and have to have increase clerical staff to track the train of possession. It will cost the customer more while we make less.

Excellent for Sima and the taxman, expensive for the "plow guy" and his customer. If it becomes like other chemical applications the paperwork alone will force a number of people out of the business. It could come down to the majors being the only ones with the ability to apply material because of the cost of certification, training and paperwork pushing the small guy out of business or "underground."

And of course like pesticide/herbicides the private individual can apply as much as they can afford to buy with no controls at all.

JMO


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

basher;586633 said:


> I think the CSP is a good thing, helps change the perception of the professionalism of the business, but do we need more government intervention. It would definitely raise snow removal prices . We'll all have to pay for Sima Certification, and probably for a applicators license, lose at least 8 hours a year per man for "re-training/recertification, and the paperwork could double the time spent applying material. It will also raise the cost of material as the suppliers will have to track the who, what and where they sold material and have to have increase clerical staff to track the train of possession. It will cost the customer more while we make less.
> 
> Excellent for Sima and the taxman, expensive for the "plow guy" and his customer. If it becomes like other chemical applications the paperwork alone will force a number of people out of the business. It could come down to the majors being the only ones with the ability to apply material because of the cost of certification, training and paperwork pushing the small guy out of business or "underground."
> 
> ...


Absolutely, and maybe they mistated it or misunderstood it, but that was what was said at that seminar, NOT sponsored by SIMA but put on by a SIMA member.

Funny (or stupid) thing is, here in MI there is no point of sale tracking or restrictions for pesticides for licensed companies. I can have any employee go to a vendor and buy anything but a RUP even though they can not apply it. There really is no restriction on it. And the idiots without licenses no that and take advantage of it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Some one is jealous , I did not Attack you did I
So quit being a baby.



T-MAN;586590 said:


> So how many bad business men in the Snow business with CSP credentials do you know ? Have you ever been to a Sima event ? Ya theres a few bad apples, but 99% of theCSP's out there are good friendly people looking to help out others in this industry.
> 
> Credentials do not get the snow moved.
> But if they make you feel better about your self then good for you.
> ...


Good for Sima, 
But it is kind of naive to think that it is for everyone.

Originally Posted by SnoFarmer View Post
Just because the garbage man calls him self a Dr.of Garbagelogy.
he is is still the garbage man.
A Pig is still a pig even with makeup on.
You can educate your self,why do you need a self governing club to do it?Why not ? Do you belong to any self governing groups ? Hope not...

Just become you have a "csp" does not make you a good business man, or a
Dr. of snowoligy.

call it what you want....

Good one. Honestly I have not met any Loser Csp's, have you ?

Who's the looser?

A business class at the local community collage will cost you much less.
Want to learn about ice controll? Well, If you have accesses to the internet then all of the info you need is at your finger tips.

Are you sure that will cost less ? Whens the last time you found someone to Mentor you in Snow and Ice on the internet ?
They sure are cheaper.
I went to school

I'll take you under my wing t-man, What's bothering you?

t-man, those heavy fire trucks can go through more snow than your pick-up can...
I guess if your police, fire & EMS do not have the proper vehicles to respond in the snow Then they must not see it as an emergency.
Some places even put snow plows on the school buss.
I know crazy......

Yep we live in Ho Dunk. They use a Prius with back pack sprayers. There are no EMERGENCY'S here, only slight inconveniences
Those school busses make a great plow vehicle. Ever watch one get stuck in its own shadow with no kids on board ? I have Bet they push snow great.

Sorry about your city Ho Dunk.......I haven't...

To much liability for a school bus to travel in 3" of snow?
Yet, they still haul kids around in buses that don't have seat belts or air bags. Come on......
So if the kids are at school and it snows3" there stranded at school?

They send in the national guard hear.

Really for 3" of snow? And they show up? Seams like waist of tax dollars, Not hear.

As for your client comment,
I have said it before everyone and their brother-in-law has a plow truck.
Most plow for beer money, I mean they plow there own drive and family friends and there neighbors. My biggest customer owns his own plow truck and bobcat.
Most of them do not want to get up and go plowing at 1am.or deal with it when a storm hits.

Why would you get out of bed at 1am ? Interesting how something that is a minor inconvenience would need tending to at 1am. I would think you would just plow folks out like you do a lawn maintenance route. Once a week if you need it or not.

It's called a job I do it for $$ You should try it.
People work in the box factory 24/7 it's not that big of a deal.
I don't do grass.
The paper boy is up delivering papers and he does not have a red flashing light aether.
It is convent for people to have there drives or lots cleared from ice and snow.


ps. If snow removal, plowing, snow & ice management was truly an emergency we would be all licensed by our state and we would be running red lights instead of amber.

EMT's don't have red lights in there personal trucks either, must not be an emergency for them ?

Police personal don't have red lights on there personal vehicles ether..

I like debating with you T-man but you take it way to personal...

Most of the membership is folks with 1 to 5 trucks a loader, bobcat, salter.( yes I know there are a few members with a lot more equipment))
Not to many want to be a national management CO.

If you need it then it is there for you.
Good for you you belong

It's not for me or most other small businessmen like me
T-man I have been working with snow since 1980.
I have training in avalanche predicting. Slope maintenance,
I can even make snow.
I know about about the different types and the conditions in witch they occur.
That chemicals mixed together can give you different results.
What I'm saying there is other places to educate your self.
I even know what a snow plow is.

Do I alone need to type out what tire is the best or can we as a collective discuss it? Then people can make up there own minds?

You can come up with all the scenarios you want to justify that snow plowing is an emergency service.
Bad things happen all year long.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

On the Emergency note...... You should here some of the calls we get for an inch of snow.....the world is going to end, but we have some HOA reitiement communities with little old ladies that have nothing else to do than look out the window & watch all the accidents on the news. I've learned to deal with it. Its all perspective, it may not be a emergency, but a public safty/ liability thing. I'm also hearing it more from business owners about the liability, seems there slowly getting it.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

SnoFarmer;586666 said:


> Some one is jealous , I did not Attack you did I
> So quit being a baby.
> 
> Good for Sima,
> ...


Thats great you got your training else were, and had those opportunity's offered to you. 
Many don't have the luxury to go to school on a regular basis for all kinds of training, and look to a "Trade Organization" to better there business's and skills. Its actually comical IMO you always feel the need to belittle others who may join a group such as Sima.That does say quite a lot about your character. Its also comical how your quick to judge Sima, its CSP's and those involved when you obviously have not met any of the above. Again  says a lot about your character.
I was raised to stand up for what you believe in, so pardon me if tend to take things personal when I read the rhetoric posted on here....
Have a nice Day.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

JohnnyRoyale;586625 said:


> bribrius;586594 said:
> 
> 
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Lets face it, theres only so much anyone can do when its snowing 2 inches an hour.

Now IMO everything I've been stating in past posts is irrelevant if your a solo operator plowing driveways locally, and the snow falls in the evening, and you have 8-10 hour to get everyone out by morning. What I do involves a little more than that. Its co-ordinating 25-30 guys, plow trucks, machines, sidewalk crews, salt trucks, for large industrial properties (some of which are open 24 hours), government facilities, big box retail centres, etc. My exposure to liablity (beyond a slip and fall) in my case is huge- I just want to be armed a little better, thats all. It is a 24 hour/7 day a week commitment for us all winter long. Someone is always working-doing something.

Road service is horrible most of the time, and I too have had many white knuckle drives down the highway. I've been caught in traffic jams and road closures-and two years ago it took me 5 hours to get home on a trip that would have taken me 45 minutes on a good day. There was absolutely nothing, anyone could do as the freak storm hit 2 hours before before rush hour-roads were closed, and if you were doing anything mroe than crawling, you ran the risk of driving into the ditch. I'm no better than anyone else here, but I really think by investing some pocket change and some time in educating ourselves a little more about the business, people management, procedures, techniques, new methods sure wouldn't hurt. For me its serious business, My family, and all the families of my hard working staff depend on me and what we do while everyone else sleeps in their warm cozy beds. If you think you know it all, and have nothing to learn-more power to you. In my case, I can live with the fact that I don't and I have realized there may possibly be some benefits of taking the course and challenging the test.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

For me its serious business, My family, and all the families of my hard working staff depend on me and what we do while everyone else sleeps in their warm cozy beds.

You also forget every one that lives in or works at one of those properties is depending on you so the can get to or conduct busines for that day.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

You also forget every one that lives in or works at one of those properties is depending on you so the can get to or conduct busines for that day


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

That goes without say.
I'm glad someone here realizes the importance of our efforts.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

T-MAN;587144 said:


> Thats great you got your training else were, and had those opportunity's offered to you.
> Many don't have the luxury to go to school on a regular basis for all kinds of training, and look to a "Trade Organization" to better there business's and skills. Its actually comical IMO you always feel the need to belittle others who may join a group such as Sima.
> If we all agreed, we would be yesmen, I will not be a yesma.
> I may even take the other side"devils advocate" so we can discuss all the nuances of a situation. By doing this we all can learn
> ...


"I was raised to stand up for what you believe in,"

Me too maybe that's why we but heads?

affording an education, My family had to make concessions so i could go to school.
IA took a while working raising a family and taking a class or 3 during a semester.

jmi, most snow plowing business are small like I am.
There can only be so many big management co's.
To play on their level takes big money and w whole different approach than most of us are taking.

I don't like it when organizations try to control a trade.
Tthe next thing to happen is unionization.

Hey if sima helped you that's great. 
Also by discussing sima with someone who does not think that they need it you might be influencing others to join by being a good spokesman for your club?

T-man why are you bring up things that happened over a year ago?
let it go... No need to bring it up hear..or go back to those threads and we can rehash it there...:waving:
The $500 or what ever it is just for the test is money most of these guys need for salt or a down payment on a plow, business expenses.

Yes, plowing is an essential "service" just not an emergency one.

Joheny U your all right,

buy that's just my opinion


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

SnoFarmer;587240 said:


> "I was raised to stand up for what you believe in,"
> 
> Me too maybe that's why we but heads?
> 
> ...


Again your still bashing a group you know ZERO about WTF ? It cracks me up how trivial and resentful you really are toward something you know nothing about. 
FYI there are people there that have forgotten more about the Snow Industry then you think you Know 

I am NOT a present MEMBER of SIMA.I let my membership lapse this spring when i was on the fence on getting out of the bus. That said, I know the group is for bettering the industry, not Regulating it, and I will continue to defend it. Everyone does not need to join or support it, or even like the association. 
When "Self Proclaimed Experts" start to spew crap I tend to call them out.

Around here most Snow business's are not small 1-2-3 truck operators. Most are Large Landscaping company's that are very Well managed by folks with MBA's and No Avalanche certificates. I highly doubt most have an education to make snow either. Joining a group like Sima will put you in contact with People and Business's like these, give you in site, and networking that you will NEVER EVER get on Plowsite. Not a darn thing wrong with learning from your Peers., not everyone needs to go to community college to learn what a Snow Plow is.
The Members of Sima really are the real deal, and industry leaders. Little Guys and Big Guys. Some good, some bad, so take it for what its worth.

I promise you this, getting a CSP certificate will NOT hinder ANYONE from bettering themselves or there business. 
You may take some flack from "Self Proclaimed Experts" on a forum, but other then that you will be one step ahead.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

JohnnyRoyale;587195 said:


> I can live with the fact that I don't and I have realized there may possibly be some benefits of taking the course and challenging the test.


I would never knock anyone trying to learn more.
AGREED.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Where'd that big footed french girl go?


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

JohnnyRoyale;587377 said:


> Where'd that big footed french girl go?


Paul took her home to meet Mom.


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

SF: I am a Snow Management Technician. I also have a degree in Snow Plowology!  :salute:


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

If ya can't be a member of SIMA, you mind as well join L.O.P.O.A. !!!  

....eh, PJ


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Where do i sign up?payup


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

I didn't want to get into this between T & Sno. But if T is a representitive of the helpful members of SIMA, I'm not sure I would want to join. You are trying to force Sno into taking your opinion as the right one. If someone doesn't agree with your position or doesn't want to join your club, then you take offense.

T-man said: "I am NOT a present MEMBER of SIMA." Then why does it say SIMA MEMBER on your signature?


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## tls22 (Sep 30, 2007)

SnoFarmer;584823 said:


> But please don't put your self in the same class as the Police, Fire and EMS.
> Plowing is a convenience maybe even an nasesatey but surely not an emergency when an inch or even 6 inches falls...
> 
> In 99.0 % of snow falls ( I pulled that # out of my a$s)
> ...


I agree with you sno-farmer, i believe ur area is better adapted to snow falls. Here in jersey we get 2 inches of snow around rush hour and you will see a accident every half mile!(no lie) If someone gets into a accident there first person to blame is the roads not being treated by the state. Many people complain in this state how plow trucks sit at local fast food chains during rush hour. Many people around here dont understand its hard to plow major roads when its a 3 lane parking lot with no1 moving. I believe ur emergency equipment is better adapted for winter condition, if it snowed 9 inches in nyc and nothing was plowed it would be hard for ems/fire to get around. I believe business as a whole would be slow, due to the lack of knowledge around here for snow! In no-way am i comparing plowing vs a fire fighter running into a burning building(it just cant be compared) I do think people in my area have a unappreciated attitude to plowing and a lack of common sense in a snowstorm. I was told it was hard to teach someone common sense.lol


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

What the hell I'll jump in here to.Your right the average person could care less if you are a CSP. Most people just want the roads and parking lots cleared of snow so they can go to work or the store. It's just like the utility companies most people don't know how they work and don't care.They just want their gas,water and eclectic on.If something happens most people only see the guy up in a bucket truck or digging a hole to fix something. Same as plowing most people only see a guy in a truck pushing snow and they think how hard can that be ,sit in a truck and go back and forth. SIMA I think works the same way you learn all that back office ,how to bid so you don't lose money routing advertising and etc. Maybe you sit there and say ,well I make money this job isn't that hard. But maybe if you see things from a different point of view you maybe able to do the same amount of work but make more money. 

That's all I have to say.
PS I don't belong to SIMA


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I think Sno was fishing and T Man was the the first to bite.LOL. I'm a new member to Sima and I just ordered my CSP study manuals. I think Sno and T Man both had some good points but I do agree that T Man needs to relax a bit. I understand that Sno talks crap sometimes but he does it on purpose to get both sides to a story and well he did. I'm actually only trying to get my CSP for me, it's a personal goal, if no one recognizes it, well who cares.


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

When I become an active SIMA member, I will be the KING of Snowplowing operations......just like JD Dave!!!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

creativedesigns;588113 said:


> When I become an active SIMA member, I will be the KING of Snowplowing operations......just like JD Dave!!!


Creative,I think you'll be more like King JD's foot stool!


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

grandview;588138 said:


> Creative,I think you'll be more like King JD's foot stool!


LOL , no Cre I think you'll just be a peasent, like the rest of us.:salute:


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

BS Dave-your gonna want the world to know, and your even going to embroider your new CSP designation on your overalls.


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