# Snow Blower & HOA Guys: advice needed



## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

There is a smaller HOA community for 55 and older adjacent to one of our plow routes that I would like to add for this coming season. I drove through there today to take a look and it was an absolute mess. I talked with 2 of the residents and they are unhappy with the service.

I will be bidding for combined snow removal & lawn care but i need a bit of advice on the snow removal side.

Heres what I know:
approx. 60 homes with these trucklength, double drives
less than a mile of narrow double road
some empty lot sites that i could use to contain and snow from roads if needed

My Plan:
3 vehicles: 1 dump truck with 810/8611 and salter for roads, my ASV RC100 with a 7' snow blower on front for driveways and then a 1/2 ton p/u with a 2 stage snowblower, single stage blower and shovels for the short walkways to the front doors and snow in front of garage doors. 3-5 employees depending on severity of snow. Service time 2-4 hrs depending on accumulation.

My questions:
-what type of snowblower should I be looking at for the ASV? it has 20gpm on the low 
flow and 38gpm on the high flow along with the 14 pin electrical connector on the boom, cab, heat and ac

-am i overlooking anything equipment wise? once i know the equipment i want to designate to this site i can come up with my bid.

3' from curb not plowed:









messy aprons:


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

more messy pics:


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

narrow roads, the dont clean to the curbs, maybe 4' worth of road unplowed (2' per side)


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

From my experience HOA tend to go with the lowest bid, then ***** about the service. Even if you over service them at you expense & someone comes in less your out. That is what your seeing in my opion a contractor trying to make money with the low bid. That has been my experience.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

wow, that is some terrible looking work. Good luck getting it, just make sure you are talking to the right people, board members, it doesn't matter what a bunch of residents say if the board doesn't want to listen.


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## blaryslawn (Jan 8, 2010)

RLM;1001856 said:


> From my experience HOA tend to go with the lowest bid, then ***** about the service. Even if you over service them at you expense & someone comes in less your out. That is what your seeing in my opion a contractor trying to make money with the low bid. That has been my experience.


I have experienced the same... I went and met with the head of a HOA to give them a quote... It would be an hourly charge for each piece of equipment and a "per bag" charge for Ice control apps.... Needless to say, I was called due to the half a***** job the previous contractor did. Yet she told me I may as well leave after I explained hourly rates because the previous guy was charging almost half of what I was by the hour. So, I very nicely told her that that was the reason her property looked the way it did. You get what you pay for.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I have one like that near my house drives are about 10 foot deep. 1st yr company was using a truck to back drag them 2nd yr new company is there and are using a cat with a snow blower on it. Between both yrs no real difference in the driveways. I think if you go with a back blade it will be to big for that place ,no room to maneuver around. Looks like in your pixs you get a look of drifting there so you better price it for a lot of return trips to clean out the road.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

My experience is limited on dealing w/ HOA's. This has been my first yr servicing a 90 unit complex/ retirement community.....some of which are stand alone homes, some duplexes. The President(ultimate decision maker) & Treasurer (cuts checks) are "usually" the ones you want to sit down with and go over the contract face to face with. I did this back in the fall, and laid everything out, went over what they wanted and what they can expect to see being done. So far I can say its been the best thing that has happened to me in snow removal. They have sent me thank you's, some of the old ladies have sent homemade cookies home with my walk guys(when they can catch them), and they have paid the bills sent to them in a timely manner. 

One thing that would concern me is a SS running a snowblower at say 4am. This may be something that they will need to just deal with? Because it appears from the pics you are very limited on space? Just make sure all your bases are covered then add some to that, then throw a little cushion on top of that. I have learned (at least the one I do) that they require more babysitting than most of my other accounts.

Good Luck


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Forget about the snow blower on the ASV. Just get the biggest snow bucket you can and pull everything out and scoop it away. Trust me on this. I've done these kinds of places before. The snow blower is just something else to go wrong, and will not be faster.

That place is done poorly, but you will find out that money IS an issue! Will probably shock you with how much it's being done for.

Other thing you might want to look at is Cage or Snow Wolf plow/pusher combo. Place like that would be perfect.

Good luck, hope you get it.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

i have been contemplating the noise issue if we are out at an early time. but we live in cleveland and ya gotta deal with the snow and everything that it entails.

i have thought about a reverse push box setup for pulling the drives with the ASV into the street, the issue then would be having to move those piles to a specific location (empty lots) to then get them off the road.

as you can see from the pictures the amount of lawn between the drives is minimal so not much room for snow piles.

the two residents i spoke with are neighbors of the board president and good friends with him. they informed me that each resident pays $110 per month every month for maintenance. this includes the snow removal duties and mowing. so if 60 homes that comes to about $79200 annually in gross revenues.


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## djagusch (Oct 15, 2007)

ProTouchGrounds;1002503 said:


> * $110 per month every month for maintenance*. this includes the snow removal duties and mowing. so if 60 homes that comes to about $79200 annually in gross revenuesey informed me that each resident pay.


This amount seems pretty high. I bet it is for everything (their monthly dues), it covers insurance, water (sprinklers), reserve fund (to replace sidewalks, siding, paving, etc over time), management fees, etc. My bet is that around 40% of that goes to the actual contractor (aka you) for maintenance.


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## nms0219 (Jan 20, 2007)

I agree about 40% goes to the contractor.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

i thought that was a bit optimistic. the way the resident told me about it made it seem that that was strictly for maintenance.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

WIPensFan;1002157 said:


> Forget about the snow blower on the ASV. Just get the biggest snow bucket you can and pull everything out and scoop it away. Trust me on this. I've done these kinds of places before. The snow blower is just something else to go wrong, and will not be faster.
> 
> That place is done poorly, but you will find out that money IS an issue! Will probably shock you with how much it's being done for.
> 
> ...


x2, in this case (as with most HOA and Condos) a snow bucket well allow you to get into tight areas and pile it high when you start to run out of room.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

but thats just the issue, theres almost zero room to begin with!

here, copy and paste this lat/long into googlemaps.com and you'll see the arrow pointing to the HOA.

41.358266,-81.680996

Look for Harvest ln. and Falling lane, its the homes arranged in the rectangle. the empty lots are on the lower left corner of the HOA and thats a retention pond on the other side of the road. as you can see, id have to drag all the driveways into the street and carry the piles to the empty lots.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

not necessarily, we back drag our drives, then scoop and lift onto the lawn and then push it back periodically, eventually you are going to have to move snow to those empty lots, but you should be able to keep a bunch of that snow where it is, and if those are 16ft garage doors, you should have no problem turning around there. unfortunately that place looks like a bit of a mess already, you are going to have to spend a bunch of hours just getting it back to a acceptable condition.


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## RTEnt (Apr 14, 2007)

buckwheat_la;1002697 said:


> not necessarily, we back drag our drives, then scoop and lift onto the lawn and then push it back periodically, eventually you are going to have to move snow to those empty lots, but you should be able to keep a bunch of that snow where it is, and if those are 16ft garage doors, you should have no problem turning around there. unfortunately that place looks like a bit of a mess already, you are going to have to spend a bunch of hours just getting it back to a acceptable condition.


I couldn't agree more, we use a Bobcat S250 with a 8' straight blade to do a complex very similar to what you have described, 45-50 units. The beauty of the blade is that our operator is able to plow the roads as well. Start to finish he's done in 3 hours. We also keep the snow bucket on site just in case we have to move or stack snow.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

When i go back there ill try and get a picture of an entire yard to see how much space there will be for piling snow. we have had lots of steady snowfalls with very few periods warm enough to melt. Which is why we have massive piles at the end of driveways that ive had to bust up.

i got the feeling from the residents that many are not happy with the piles, and even more so that they are intruding onto their driveways. although i realize that your gonna have piles if you have snow. Once i talk to the prez i can get a feel if they are willing to pay a premium for blower work in the site. this way with no piles the place will look better. if they arent gonna be paying more than what they are now, ill go the cheaper route with a kage type system and snowbucket, at least with a skid steer i can get the piles spread around the yards more so than a truck can.


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## deere615 (Jun 1, 2007)

Thats funny when I first read this I was thinking a kage system might be good for you back drag all drives- nice and clean with the down pressure-through the kage on and take the snow where you want it


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## kipcom (Feb 3, 2001)

We do & have done tons of these retirement villages......

2 trucks to push
6 2stage snow blowers ( drives & walks )
2 to 3 skid steer w bucket ( move snow and can clear drives )
8 to 10 groundsmen ( clearing walkways & etc )

Have a plan for where to put the excess snow (push or remove) be careful of clearing between the hours of 11pm and 5am unless u have in your contract "anytime" for clearing and removal.....we have had the cops called on us for "disturbing the peace"....ussmileyflag


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*HOA community*



ProTouchGrounds;1001799 said:


> There is a smaller HOA community for 55 and older adjacent to one of our plow routes that I would like to add for this coming season. I drove through there today to take a look and it was an absolute mess. I talked with 2 of the residents and they are unhappy with the service.
> 
> I will be bidding for combined snow removal & lawn care but i need a bit of advice on the snow removal side.
> 
> ...


Good morning,

The problem is power and the ability to remove
the snow quickly and be able to get rid of it the first time. 
The two stage snow blowers for the ASV and a pick up will
be limited in power and ability to remove snow due to thier design.

The pick up will be doing nothing but crawling and it has to be an
automatic transmissionn unit and you will have extreme difficulty in
directing the blower discharge for either machine to avoid damaging 
cars, house windows etc.

The same thing will happen with and ASV due to the hydraulic drive
for the snow blower

You will not be able to drag the snow out of the street with the ASV
or truck blower.

You will have difficulty in removing snow from driveways and piles quickly
because of the design of the subdivision plots.

Look at the positives first;

1. you have a potential customer in an HOA community with with 60 customers with repeat business for mowing and snow removal.
2. you will be plowing a small access road 
3. you have an area to stock pile snow the first time and the last time.
4 the driveways are short which aids in cleaning speed
5.you will have a small clustered snow clearing route with unrestricted movement for machineries.
6. you would be able to charge a seasonal rate per customer and make money and keep your HOA happy
and still make money. 
7. you are able to remove the snow the first time and get rid of it with ease as it is a private drive.

You can do it with one machine quickly and I will explain how:

1. an Kubota 8540 vineyard and orchard tractor with rubber tracks will provide you with plenty 
of power with an all weather presurised cab.
a. a two stage snoe blower powered by a tractor will have no power or speed issues even with deep snows. 
b. a track drive tractor will allow you to remove any heavy snows quickly from in front of the homes and lawns. 
to reduce access problems for EMS and fire protection.
c. The areas around fire hydrants can be cleaned quickly and be kept clear for pumper trucks to allow quick access.
d. one employee can cover the HOA quickly and efficiently cleaning clearing and blowing snow to the dump areas.

2. an pronovost PXPL-86 model with the hydraulic chute, plow blade and adjustable spout will allow you 
to drag the snow out of the driveways in three passes or less into the road away from the driveways to be removed later.
a. no piles of snow to freeze up later and have diffiulty later removing them.

3. the scraper blade with either a steel edge or rubber edge will clean the drive way to bare ground.
a. if the driveways are empty you will be able to back right up to the garage or end of driveway with ease and be able to see everything 
with good visibility and clean it with no issues by extending the scraper b lade and pulling the snow out to the end of the drive way and 
then drop it to be removed in one pass to the dump areas by blowing it in one pass to the dump area and not have to worry about dealing with piles 
b. the PXPL-86 is a high quality blower and pronovost builds quality farm equipment and has done so for many years.

c. a lot of the folks here have Pronovost blowers and they use them for snow removal. When I saw the PXPL-86 at the
Empire Farm Days and looked at the welds and the impeller as well as the spout system I can tell you that machine is solid and well built.

d. the adjustable spout and scraper blade allows you to pull the snow out and blow it at the same time in close quarters and pull it out to the road 
to be removed later when cleaning up.

4. in the case of heavy accumulations from storms that make the lane impassable the blower can be used to open the road and dispose of the snow
in one pass leaving no piles to remove later or have freeze over and be able to keep the fire hydrants fully exposed as well for pumper trucks.

a. this is the web site for the pronovost home page and the site has a video with narration for the PXPl snow blower.

www.pronovost.qc.ca/snowblowers

www.kubota.com/utilitytractors/orchard

Disclaimer: I have no financial interests in Pronovost or Kubota

leon


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

> Good morning,
> 
> The problem is power and the ability to remove
> 
> ...


i think you may have misunderstood my original post, and it may have been my fault. I would not be using a snowblower for the truck. I was inquiring about the feasability of a snow blower mounted ONLY on my ASV (38gpm hiflow) and the ASV will only be clearing the short driveways with the snowblower. The ASV will also have a snow bucket/pusher (ill decide on which or maybe both) to aid the truck in clearing off the streets.

The truck will be using a blizzard powerplow 810 so that i can strategically place the snow in locations that are as minimally obtrusive as possible.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*snow etc.*

You will have difficulty spot placing snow with the asv and directing it without causing damage.

Pronovost makes a hydraulic drive snow blower that has quick attach mounting kits.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

> You will have difficulty spot placing snow with the asv and directing it without causing damage.


how so? the first pass on the driveway i would direct snow discharge onto the next pass side of the driveway, then when i go for the next pass i will blow the snow directly onto the lawn.

i dont understand what all this worry about damage is for? do do Neige, blowerman and blackirish accomplish this with their larger more powerful tractor/blower combos?? i would think a truck with blade has a higher possibility of damaging a property versus a smaller tracked machine with a blower that has the capability to direct snow where it wants.


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## lawnproslawncar (Dec 9, 2007)

I haven't read all of the posts but I would throw a Erkskin (Spelling?) blower on that ASV and use it on the whole complex. Maybe windrow the road to one side of the road with a truck quick and blow the snow to the curb the rest of the way. Then they will have no piles to look at...Could be a great selling point.

How Many HP is the ASV?


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

> Then they will have no piles to look at...Could be a great selling point.


thats what im trying to push for. the erskine and quickattach blowers are the same models ive also looked at the ffc's



> How Many HP is the ASV?


its 100 hp and has 38gpm at 3300psi on the hi flow side with the 14pin electrical connector.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*snow blower*



ProTouchGrounds;1003696 said:


> how so? the first pass on the driveway i would direct snow discharge onto the next pass side of the driveway, then when i go for the next pass i will blow the snow directly onto the lawn.
> 
> i dont understand what all this worry about damage is for? do do Neige, blowerman and blackirish accomplish this with their larger more powerful tractor/blower combos?? i would think a truck with blade has a higher possibility of damaging a property versus a smaller tracked machine with a blower that has the capability to direct snow where it wants.


=================================================================
What happens if you run out of lawn to blow snow on?, what then?

Who is responsible for the fire hydrants and clearing them? 
are the hydrants marked with flags or story boards with orange painted masts?

A snow blower is just as likely to be damaged or damage property 
that may have been buried the night before.

A larger blower with more power has more infinite control of the 
snow being directed where they want to direct it because of the larger
chute and greater angle of spout control below the horizontal as well
as the ability to blow snow in fornt of ther blower in the case of the 
PXPL models or the inverted models.

The other thing you are at an elevation to see over the snow blower 
with excellent visibility where with a hydraulic driven blower on a skid 
steer or track loader you are directly behind it and lose that field of vision

The worry about damage is simply this is if the chute
does not have a fully retractable cylinder the snow coming
out of the impeller will have a mind of its own and it is a 
controlled mass until it exits the chute and spout and after 
the restriction of the chute body and spout is overcome it will be spread
in a wider path as the chute or spout is not there to direct and 
control it. this is proven with municipal snow blowers loading trucks 
using retractable chutes and spouts with a large arc of delivery to control 
deliver the snow being removed(which is also higjhlighted in the movie clip.

- the Pronovost movie clip shows you this in great detail.

I am not saying it cannot be done but you have to under stand the
physics and brute force of the whole mess.

1. the open augers allow full unrestricted floe of material to the impeller fan.

2.when you have ice and heavy snow pack from melting the removal becomes more 
time consuming because of the amount of power required to move the heavier snow 
and ice chunks which also effects the impeller speed due to surges of heavier 
material. and once that heavier material exits the chute or spout it will be effected by 
it exit speed, its weight and simple gravity as well as the material being pushed 
behind it. and if its olid enough it will bounce on impact if the area is ice covered.

3. if all we dealt with was powder snow it would not be an issue.

If a PXPL-50-75 was used you could have it fully outfitted and use a smaller 50 horse 
power 2 wheel drive tractor with weighted tires and chains.

I have provided an information sheet about the pronovost Puma hydraulic snow blowers here as well.

I dont have nickle invested, I have no reason to lie to you or anyone else and everyone here knows that.

A hydraulic drive snow blowers flow rate is simply that and only that as the fluid is providing the motive 
power to rotate the impeller and power the gear box drive for the auger iif it has a gear box. 
The hotter hydrualic oil becomes the more efficient it is in delivering fluid power energy to the job required
as it is thinner and will be pumped faster providing more useable energy.

Buuut that fluid power in a hydraulic drive snow blower is trying to overcome a solid or near solid mass
of heavy snow and snow melt which is the resistance to the hydraulic motor turning the impeller which strains 
the hydraulic motor and may force the relief valve to open and bypass to protect itself.
The cross auger is no different and the shear pin will snap.

A pto driven snow blower has energy delivered to it with the PTO shaft at either 540 RPM or 1,000 RPM and it 
is reduced in speed to operate the cross auger or augers with a chain drive systems using shaft drives from the gear box 
and the shaft speed from the gear box to the sprockets and the sproket size in diameter determines the cross auger rotation
speed and which also affects how efficient the cross auger is whether it is a solid cross auger or a an open one.

The major portion of the energy delivered by the PTO shaft is delvered to the impeller and whether it is a 4 5, or 6 blade impeller
is also an issue as the snow can be cast faster as the impeller is taking a smaller bite at the same speed still moving and casting 
what ever is being delivered to by the cross auger or augers.

The impeller is simply throwing material that enters it. The weight, density, mass of the snow and simple gravity affect its efficiency.
The size of the cross auger HAS to be as wide as the machine carrying it other wise its a non issue as the machine will snow bound.

Heavy ice and snow pack will require slower speeds and or hlaf cuts in width to improve cassting ability due to the hydraulic motor efficiency.

There is nothing wrong with a hydraulic powered implement, using it in applications requiring more energy than it can deliver is a two fold problem.

The smaller 2 stage snow blower is plagued by its width and the smaller impeller and the impeller size is always a compromise on

its speed, efficency, cost to manucture and sell at a profit.

The idea of building a two stage snow blower with a larger impeller is a cost issue as more energy is needed to power the impeller.

The ice cutters using the impeller and ice and snow breaker shaft were the solution to that problem as a plow was combined with the blower

to direct snow to the fan and cast it away as wll as being able to remove packed ice and snoe from road shoulders.

I wish it was a simple issue, but it is not simple.:waving:


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## djagusch (Oct 15, 2007)

Just one thing to think about since you'll be doing the lawn part also is that putting all the snow on the front lawns will carry salt on them also, from the roads or dripping from the cars. Just something to think about.


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## milkie62 (Sep 1, 2003)

*This works for me*

I snowblow 55 out of 110 town houses in a HOA.I use to plow these but the drives are only 2 car lengths long.Was getting impossible to plow with only a couple of feet between drives and cable and telephone situated in those small strips.I went went 3 snowblowers---2 Ariens and 1 Cub Cadet.The 3 of us do an average of 6-8 per hr.which translates up to $240/hr per man.I am only a part-timer and am happy with this setup.I have 1 spare MTD blower and 1 Toro 2 cycle push blower.I will be picking up 3 more push blowers for next year since they are faster on a 3-5" fluffy snow.The only problem so far is newspapers buried in the snow.Will stop a snowblower dead and out of commision,hence the reason for spares.I run a 6x12' trailer which I put on site the nite before so I do not have to pull a trailer during a storm.Keeps wear and tear off my truck and does a far superior and neater job.They are trying to get everyone to join in on this and do it on a monthly basis.The plow guys that do come in usually do not last because they tear up the corners of the lawn with the 4 door pickups.I started 4 years ago with just 3 here.I am happy with what I make and pay my 2 guys 30% of what they do.
I thought about getting a small cab 4wd tractor with 48" snowblower and 5' backblade to speed things up.Then I would just need the small blowers for the walks and steps.
Next year I will be getting the 3 parking areas at $500/month for the 3 lots starting Dec 1st and ending March 1st.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

ProTouchGrounds;1002656 said:


> i thought that was a bit optimistic. the way the resident told me about it made it seem that that was strictly for maintenance.


That is the way most residents see it, which is why your job is critical in keeping complaints to a minimum for the property manager who can bring you into other HOAs.

WiPens is right... you need a reverse push box for your ASV. Your site pictures did not pull up for me, but I can tell you that the place should take no more than an hour for a truck/skid team with a push box.

Pull all drives from one side of the street out into the road, windrow it all to opposite curb with truck, then pull out the other drives and push excess with truck to common areas for piling.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

i dont know how many times I have to say this, but the only parts of this association that would be snowblowed are the drives, therefore the point is moot regarding salt damaging lawns, hydrants buried, running out of room on the lawns.

I would have the asv blowing the driveways and a truck clearing the roads, then one can help the other if one finishes faster. the point is that this association is secluded from the main streets by a side street and all roads within that association would be handled by us as well.

and again, the issue with dragging the snow off the drives would be that i would have to transport those piles a long way down the road to the empty lots and would take too much time, i would have to do 4-6 houses, push those piles down the road then stack them, then come back and do the next few. 

i will have the asv with snowblower and possibly a kage system along with a dump truck and blizzard plow on this site.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

ProTouchGrounds;1013800 said:


> i dont know how many times I have to say this, but the only parts of this association that would be snowblowed are the drives, therefore the point is moot regarding salt damaging lawns, hydrants buried, running out of room on the lawns.
> 
> I would have the asv blowing the driveways and a truck clearing the roads, then one can help the other if one finishes faster. the point is that this association is secluded from the main streets by a side street and all roads within that association would be handled by us as well.
> 
> ...


Protouch... as much as I hate to quote myself, the method I posted puts almost half the association's snow along the opposite curb, then you are only dragging the other half into the street to be carried. Again, I couldn't open the pics... Is there a loop or other way to turn the truck around without using reverse? You'd be surprised how much a truck can move when in constant motion -especially with wings of some kind. BTW- you don't necessarily need empty lots. We try to utilize bigger common areas and bigger corner yards rather then jamming into every lawn- less damage come spring.


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