# Optimum Pusher speed?



## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Not sure if this is the right forum, but since only airports or very large lots will have 800' pushes with no obstacles, I decided to post it here.

I built a rig to put a box plow (16' Super Duty Protech with a rubber edge) on the front of my articulated truck, as shown in the picture. It is used to push snow between hangar rows (800' pushes) and off of ramps at the airport (varied but averaging 600'), where windrowing to the side as is done on the runway or taxiway is not feasible due to the buildings on both sides or the ramp width (200').

It does a good job, but I currently mosey along at about 6-7 mph and get 5 acres per hour done. The truck can do 30 mph in high gear, but that seems a bit extreme even when not within a few feet of buildings. Is there an optimum speed for pushing with a rubber edge pusher, or is it just a question of power/traction/avoiding obstacles?

Thanks


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Holy crap!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you answered your own question.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

With 3 10ft arctic sectional snow plows, u can do 18 mph


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

I have nothing to contribute regarding your question. But as Mark so eloquently put it, HOLY CRAP. Nice fab job. I would like to see more pics, maybe of the under structure and lift mechanism. Pretty cool.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

That thing does look very cool.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

JD Dave;1979610 said:


> That thing does look very cool.


ditto

Just go a bit faster next time...see how it feels/acts as you increase speed. Doubt I'd want to go much more than 15-20, but I really have no idea...never drove a rig like that before.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I'll get some of the underside, but here are a few of the connection to the box. Protech supplied the H-beam with a pin-type restraint, and I had some angle plasma cut to make the attachment brackets for the beam.

I used Cat 3 hitch repair ends ($25 each), and then machined some solid inserts to go into hollow tubes.

There are 4 square tubes (2x6x1/4 wall) tubes, 2 connected to each frame rail on the truck using some bracketry I built. The inner ones meet in the middle of the beam, and the outer ones go out at a higher angle to take sideloads and add some push.

I made a plate to bolt to the front of the truck. It holds the hydraulic cylinders that do the lifting on the outer beams, and some mounts to control the tilt of the plow when it is lifted. It has a weird shape so that I can get some lift height and still open the hood.

I currently lift the plow using a re-routed hydraulic feed for the lift cylinders of the bed to operate the plow. I have a loader valve installed on the truck and tilt cylinders to replace the chains, but I need to take off the left fender of the truck to break into the system (open center) in the right place to make the valve operational. That's a project for the spring or fall.


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## jpell (Jan 2, 2014)

That is one heck of a fab job. Thumbs Up


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Nice rig...great introduction!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Do you load the bed for traction?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

And I thought my Volvo with a 15' box was big.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Mark Oomkes;1979687 said:


> Do you load the bed for traction?


I was worried about traction the first time I used it, since the forecast was for freezing rain then snow and more rain on top of the snow. I dumped 10 tons of sand in the back as a precaution, since 35 yards of wet snow is heavy and I couldn't find any snow on snow friction data to calculate tractive effort required

I didn't have any problems, so I'm not sure it was necessary. I'll play with it next season, since the less weight I have to carry, the less risk to the pavement, even though the tires are 60 psi and have a large contact area.

Empty, I have about 8 tons on the front axle, and 8 shared between the rear tires. Fully loaded (45 tons total), the weight is almost perfectly distributed among the tires.

It has a heated bed, so I may put a sand spreader on the back. Thinking about the Avalanche Dump Box spreader since it could just sit in the bottom of the bed, which is v-shaped.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

LapeerLandscape;1979708 said:


> And I thought my Volvo with a 15' box was big.


Is the truck able to turn with the box? One of the reasons I put it on my Moxy was that Protech indicated that they had had poor experience with big plows on conventionally steered trucks, since once the box loaded up steering was poor. They were happy when I told them mine was articulated.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Aerospace Eng;1979724 said:


> Is the truck able to turn with the box? One of the reasons I put it on my Moxy was that Protech indicated that they had had poor experience with big plows on conventionally steered trucks, since once the box loaded up steering was poor. They were happy when I told them mine was articulated.


I haven't had any trouble turning and never gave it any thought until now. The backhoe gives me a little trouble sometimes with a full box.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

So how high can you stack ? 

Well done


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## R&R Yard Design (Dec 6, 2004)

Put a live edge on that and fly


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

On a Call;1979739 said:


> So how high can you stack ?
> 
> Well done


It is limited on stacking. I can only lift the skids about 14" off the ground, but it doesn't matter for two reasons.....

One, at an airport, wingtip clearance is usually an issue. Even without lifting, the tops are 4-5 feet high, and need to get knocked down well past the pavement.

Two, if I really need to stack, I can use the same machine I use for knocking the tops off of piles and getting into tight places, a 1995 VR90b with a 12' box.


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## THEGOLDPRO (Jun 18, 2006)

Holy fcuk!


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

I must say WOW!!!!!!!!!.......Very Nice.......:salute:


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I'll post pictures of the build, but will probably do it in the heavy equipment forum, since this thread is digressing from the question originally posed and what this forum is about.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Question, how are you doing 5 acres an hour at 6-7 mph? Seems high.

I like the rest of us will follow the build closely. Our shop is set up on a single lane airstrip. That were the first sectional snow plow was built and tested at.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

5 Acres/hr only works up to 2", even with a 5'x7' sideplate. At that point I exceed the plow capacity in a single push and it begins to spill off the edges which then requires more passes. So for a 4" snow, I can only do about 2.5 acres per hour.

Regardless of whether I can clear in a single pass...For efficiency, I basically don't back up more than I have to. Backing up is wasted time.

At the moment, we have two 75' x 700' hangar lanes with a 20' road at the top and a 650'x200' ramp at the bottom. I plow up one lane, across the road and into a drainage pond. Back up 15-20 feet, use the road to get to the other lane, and plow down it, across the ramp, and into a grassy area between the ramp and the taxiway. Back up, turn and head back up the first hangar lane. I reverse the direction each storm because the piles are so big.

On the ramp, (600x200) I do the same thing, sort of like a Zamboni on a hockey rink, just with a stop at each end. I push the long way so I don't pile snow in the same place as the pushes from the hangar lanes.

If I didn't have to back up, and didn't spill, then 7 mph should get me 13 acres per hour with a 16' box. Thus, I am spending about half my time backing up, turning, or crossing space I have already plowed, or being slow at the end of a push.

The total is 4 acres, and it takes me about 45 minutes (not counting snowblowing by hand to get a few feet clear from each building).

I didn't think 5 acres per hour was that great, hence my original question, but maybe that just shows how inexperienced I am.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

How did you get that contract????


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I built the truck/pusher combination.

There is no contract in the way you would think about it. The airport just rents the truck at an hourly rate. So far I have been the one operating it, but am trying to come up with an operational doctrine for the airport personnel since my day job frequently has me traveling.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Why not a bigger pusher? 16 seems small, we use a 924K and 16's only because of the maneuverability in parking lots.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

1olddogtwo;1980834 said:


> Why not a bigger pusher? 16 seems small, we use a 924K and 16's only because of the maneuverability in parking lots.


See "Selection of Box Plow" in the "Mounting a box plow on an articulated truck" thread I started in the heavy equipment forum.

I'll have more build details there in a day or so.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I read it and don't want to pollute the thread with side debate. The end result with a rubber push or a non-floating cutting edge will leave snow behind. I've seen a few of these optimist plows around and the results are as well as expected. Look at the sectional or the live edge.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

speed depends on conditions, i run a sicard truck and 16 ft pusher, the result governs the speed, seems like the type of snow and how it scrapes tell me how fast...i use light down pressure


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## Protech Inc. (Nov 19, 2009)

Aerospace Eng,

Thanks for using Pro-Tech! We appreciate your business. If you have concerns related to damaging the actual Sno Pusher itself, no need to worry. There are no speed restrictions with a Pro-Tech Sno Pusher.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Protech said:


> Aerospace Eng,
> 
> Thanks for using Pro-Tech! We appreciate your business. If you have concerns related to damaging the actual Sno Pusher itself, no need to worry. There are no speed restrictions with a Pro-Tech Sno Pusher.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Best advertisement yet.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Protech said:


> Aerospace Eng,
> 
> Thanks for using Pro-Tech! We appreciate your business. If you have concerns related to damaging the actual Sno Pusher itself, no need to worry. There are no speed restrictions with a Pro-Tech Sno Pusher.


I wasn't worried about breaking it, I was wondering about the speed for best clearing. At some speed the rubber edge might start chattering/hopping. Any guidance on that would be appreciated.


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## Protech Inc. (Nov 19, 2009)

Aerospace Eng,

I've personally seen many customers run large model Sno Pushers between 15-20 mph. Chattering/hopping is rarely an issue unless the rubber edge is not positioned correctly. We recommend that the back edge of the rubber be set at 1/4" below the bottom of the wear shoe. Please feel free to call us if you would like to speak with a Pro-Tech representative about your question.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Protech said:


> Aerospace Eng,
> 
> I've personally seen many customers run large model Sno Pushers between 15-20 mph. Chattering/hopping is rarely an issue unless the rubber edge is not positioned correctly. We recommend that the back edge of the rubber be set at 1/4" below the bottom of the wear shoe. Please feel free to call us if you would like to speak with a Pro-Tech representative about your question.


Please don't take this as a bash, it's an honest question as I own 3 of your pushers, but how can you go that fast with a box pusher? Only way I can see is if you put way more machine behind it then necessary, seems my loaders get a workout at 8 mph.


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## Protech Inc. (Nov 19, 2009)

beanz27, 

Machine HP, application, and weight of the unit is always a factor. And of course the weight and amount of snow you are pushing. We provide a specifications chart on our website to help guide customers to what model Sno Pusher is the best fit for their needs. What size Sno Pushers do you use? Depending on the machine and conditions, I've seen customers speed around a property with a 30' Sno Pusher and others struggle to push with a 12' model.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Protech said:


> beanz27,
> 
> Machine HP, application, and weight of the unit is always a factor. And of course the weight and amount of snow you are pushing. We provide a specifications chart on our website to help guide customers to what model Sno Pusher is the best fit for their needs. What size Sno Pushers do you use? Depending on the machine and conditions, I've seen customers speed around a property with a 30' Sno Pusher and others struggle to push with a 12' model.


New cat 928 16', that occasionally has issues, otherwise I've got a 950k that pushes the same.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

beanz27;1982288 said:


> New cat 928 16', that occasionally has issues, otherwise I've got a 950k that pushes the same.


I thought Protech might answer, but here is my very limited experience.

My forklift is 26K lb, and has a 115 hp Perkins, so comparable to the 928? The pusher on it is only 12' wide, and is the "backhoe" size, with 3x3 sideplates. I can push with that through 12" of drifted snow without any bogging at about 12 mph. I haven't tried to go faster. Obviously, it is a smaller plow than yours.

At the other end, I have my truck, with the super duty at 16'. It is 260hp, and I have it loaded to about 45K lb, so a bit bigger than the 950K. As you know, I am only going 5-7 mph. However, I had a problem with the right side bogie pinion gear. I had to pull the right driveshaft (which eliminated drive to the left bogie as well) engage the interaxle diff lock, and run with just the fronts powered. I didn't have a traction problem in about 4" wet snow, and never needed to engage the rear diff lock to power the left side bogie.

I am surprised that you are bogging down with both, using the same size pusher given the hp and weight difference between the 928 and 950. Are you putting any downforce on the pusher? I found with my forklift that if I put downforce on the pusher the machine worked much harder without much improvement in scraping (rubber edge). I now operate it by keeping the forks so that the box floats without up or down pressure.

Are you losing traction or running out of power?


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## kah68 (Jan 16, 2006)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It is limited on stacking. I can only lift the skids about 14" off the ground, but it doesn't matter for two reasons.....
> 
> One, at an airport, wingtip clearance is usually an issue. Even without lifting, the tops are 4-5 feet high, and need to get knocked down well past the pavement.
> 
> ...


Do you have pics of the box on the telehandler? Looks like fork pockets are built into it?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Yes. I have attached some pictures that I took today, when I moved the pushers into a hangar to adjust the cutting edges, as we may get snow in a week or so.

There are two pockets.

I wish they fit tighter on the forks. When the forks are at their maximum width, they are close to the outside of the pockets. However, because the pockets are much wider than the forks, and the forks on my telehandler just slide on shafts the pusher can still slide around. I have to chain it to keep it from moving side to side instead of just keeping it from coming off. If you had locking forks, or if the pockets were the same width as the forks, you wouldn't have that problem.

On the other hand, unlike some other telehandlers, the shaft floats up and down by a few inches in its pockets, so I just lower the boom until the shaft is in the middle and push (no down pressure). As the boom doesn't have a float position, this ensures that I'm not constantly having to readjust the height. That is part of the reason I didn't opt for a coupler and pull off the carriage.

I also wish I had gotten a bigger box for the telehandler. The forklift weighs 26,000lb and has 110 hp, so it doesn't even notice a 12' box with backhoe sized moldboard and endplates. I don't know if I would go wider, as that would affect how well it cleans, but I would definitely have go with a loader sized moldboard and endplates if I were to do it over.

Both of my boxes are rubber edged. They work very well at the airport, but generally when the airport is being plowed, the snow is completely virgin, without vehicle (or even people) tracks, so you don't have hardpack.


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