# Got fired today...



## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

Got fired today from three accounts for doing too good of a job. All are smaller apartment complexes, two with lots of walks and one plow only with a 3" trigger. We have a zero tolerance policy on walks and keep our walks totally clear at all times. We have been having a lot of little 1/2" overnight snows that find us clearing walks. We have only plowed once at two of these places and twice at the other.

Today the supervisor at the management company in a city hours from here sent an email to the local manager that we were no longer needed. The reason? They are over budget. Snow removal of both walks and parking areas is now the responsibility of the manager (a lady) and the maintenance man with the equipment provided by the company, namely shovels.

At the start of the season we sent a quote and service agreement and it was returned signed by the same supervisor that cancelled us. I feel we did exactly what we agreed to do and no more. I do not feel like we over-serviced the properties at all so that part doesn't concern me.

The local manager is very unhappy. I asked if there was any complaints about our service and she said no, service was top-notch. She said that our cancellation would probably be annulled as soon as we got another decent storm.

I told her service would continue as per agreement until I received notice of cancellation in writing specifically naming all three properties.

Ironically, one of these locations has a resident who has asked us why we do the sidewalks but leave the parking lot such a mess. We told him they are on a 3" trigger so small accumulations just turn to ice. He said "Somebody's gonna pay big if one of us falls out here." In other words he struck us as a entitlement "user" just waiting for his chance. I think this move might bite them in the arse but that's a lesson they'll have to learn the hard way.

Lucky for us it was our least favorite accounts.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

"Lucky for us it was our least favorite accounts."

Why would you go back?


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## scott3430 (Dec 28, 2010)

So they signed your 2012/2013 snow season contract, but yet they were still able to just out of the blue cancel your services that they signed for?

Are you going to ask them to honor the contract? Or just let it go - seeing that your not crazy about the property anyways.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

My contracts for logging include a stipulation that the landowner can stop me and send me packing at any time for any reason- but...They must pay me $1000 cash to cover my lost time, effort, and money in setting up the job, planning on it, and the moving costs.
And $1000 is not even close to the actual number, but any more will scare them and they will not sign.
Of course, if they stop me for any negligent actions on my part, the stipulation is not valid...and the state forester needs to side with them in the matter for it to happen.

I think such a stipulation in a snow plow / removal contract is prudent as well...and next year I will have all my accounts sign a simple contract to that effect.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

trustyrusty;1567525 said:


> Got fired today from three accounts for doing too good of a job. All are smaller apartment complexes, two with lots of walks and one plow only with a 3" trigger. We have a zero tolerance policy on walks and keep our walks totally clear at all times. We have been having a lot of little 1/2" overnight snows that find us clearing walks. We have only plowed once at two of these places and twice at the other.
> 
> Today the supervisor at the management company in a city hours from here sent an email to the local manager that we were no longer needed. The reason? They are over budget. Snow removal of both walks and parking areas is now the responsibility of the manager (a lady) and the maintenance man with the equipment provided by the company, namely shovels.
> 
> ...


I had same thing done to me The head office cancelled the contact Told local office they had to handle it So the local office contacted my Company to do the service now I bill the local office few things changed We dont do the Icemelt no more on the walks They do that service and trigger went up to 2''


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## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

scott3430;1567603 said:


> So they signed your 2012/2013 snow season contract, but yet they were still able to just out of the blue cancel your services that they signed for?
> 
> Are you going to ask them to honor the contract? Or just let it go - seeing that your not crazy about the property anyways.


We'll just let it go for the following reason: We are the only snow and ice company in our small town. A few business owners do their own and I have seen two plow trucks from out of town. They have one account apiece and travel 15-25 miles to service them (both are churches.) Hardly seems worth the travel time and in fact one of them talked recently about working a sub deal or talk to some property owners and do a trade where we would do the account he has in our town and he would do one of ours in a town nearer to him. Anyway, if we try to pin them to the contract there will no doubt be a conflict and if that happens they will never hire us again no matter how badly they need our services. That means that when they decide to again hire somebody they would find someone local who was willing to set up for the job, or bring someone in from a different town. Either way we would then have competition who would most likely want to expand, the only way for them to expand being by lowballing us on our accounts.

By saying "whatever" and being easy to work with we hope to remain their "go-to" company for snow services if and when they need it. Like I said, they aren't our favorite jobs but we'd rather service them than have competition breaking into the market we currently have virtually cornered.


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## scott3430 (Dec 28, 2010)

That sounds like a good plan of action to keep some competition at bay - if you have the market for your area.


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## allseasons87 (Nov 29, 2011)

Was zero tolerance on walkways in your contract?


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Yeah we added cancellation costs, since its all too possible to go out, quote, get the job, sign all paperwork, pay $200-400 for their insurance requirements to send additional verbage for adding additional insured etc. for snow work, then staking out the place, photos and a property report... Two salts later and you salt too often so we're cancelling or whatever..

or the first snow storm of the year they don't like something and your out. I hate to bind anyone to a long term contract but its like cell phones, the termination cost is because you bought the phone at a discounted rate.. most of the time at least.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

I have seen many times, people dont know what they want.. They want you out there all the time but know they cant afford it.. For example tonight, it's going to be 40 degrees tomorrow.. Everyone is going out to salt, that shi_ is going to melt and customers will be pissed to have to pay for it..


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## scott3430 (Dec 28, 2010)

Seems like customers want it all.......until they get the months bill and then change there mind like a drop of a hat.


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## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

allseasons87;1567671 said:


> Was zero tolerance on walkways in your contract?


Yes, our customers understand that the walks will be kept ice-free under all circumstances and our itemized quote and service agreement clearly spells it out.

Also, the I asked the manager if there were any problems with the service and she specifically stated that we were doing what we agreed to do.


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## 2ExploreSnow (Aug 30, 2011)

Flawless440;1567680 said:


> I have seen many times, people dont know what they want.. They want you out there all the time but know they cant afford it.. For example tonight, it's going to be 40 degrees tomorrow.. Everyone is going out to salt, that shi_ is going to melt and customers will be pissed to have to pay for it..


So, let me ask this. Is there a 'more intelligent' way to write a contract to avoid or at least lessen these conflicts?

It's almost comical. Contractor has equip, manpower, and knowlege of trade. Gets all walks, steps and main areas clean with edge-to-edge sharpness. Area is pristine! Property manager, at 4am starts calling every 15min nervous that not enough is done -- basically you end up (or could) chasing snowflakes. Meanwhile, there is 2in+ of slush on many of the roads and weather will later be in upper 30's.

After 2, maybe 3yrs of that, 1 party drops the other. Later another company picks it up... yep, find out from friends in industry, same thing all over again.

I always thought either get more aggressive and send a team of workers to just Park themselves there - and they pay. Or, just do the walks, steps, front entrance and just let nature take care of the rest... again for minor snows and ice control.

(sorry if I'm thinking more than a manager... I'll now crawl back inside and listen to the rain while dreaming of deep snow)


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Shovelling 1/2" of snow seems excessive. They obviously weren't expecting that. I wouldn't want to pay for that either. I suggest spelling it out more clearly, that way they'll run for the hills BEFORE signing, rather than after.

Either that, or lighten up a bit. Let them sweep the 1/2" falls.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

It's really hard to get a good feel for what a customer wants when there is a site manager and another person some distance away that is actually paying the bills / monitoring the budget.

Both those people are customers but you are really trying to make the payer happy while trying to hold the site manager at bay.

Any site manager will say you're doing fantastic when you have a zero tolerance location and they come in and it's black and wet, they aren't paying the bill, they are happy because all the residents aren't complaining - it's the bill payer that is un happy.

Over the years we've gotten better at figuring out what customers really want but there's times that there is just nothing you can do about it - usually you hear things after that first bill goes out. We try to work with them so it doesn't end up a disaster but sometimes there is just no working it out... Shake hands and move on - just make sure it's friendly parting of ways, you never know what tomorrow will bring.

Now if it was a place you rented three loaders and had 150 ton of salt sitting at, well, you should have had that covered in the contract.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

Flawless440;1567680 said:


> I have seen many times, people dont know what they want.. They want you out there all the time but know they cant afford it.. For example tonight, it's going to be 40 degrees tomorrow.. Everyone is going out to salt, that shi_ is going to melt and customers will be pissed to have to pay for it..


Ding ding! Winner, chicken dinner!:salute:ussmileyflag


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## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

jasonv;1567911 said:


> Shovelling 1/2" of snow seems excessive. They obviously weren't expecting that. I wouldn't want to pay for that either. I suggest spelling it out more clearly, that way they'll run for the hills BEFORE signing, rather than after.
> 
> Either that, or lighten up a bit. Let them sweep the 1/2" falls.


Really?!? Once 1/2" of wet snow is packed down a slip-and-fall is as likely on it as it is on 2". If you get 1/4" skiff every night and never do anything about it because it's not enough to worry about in a week that adds up to 1 3/4" of packed snow on the walk. How will you explain that to the customer who hired you to keep the walks "free of snow and ice 24/7?" I assume when you get a less than plowable snow event you do a salt run on some of your lots. Why? For the safety of foot traffic in that lot, most likely. What is more important to pedestrian safety, a clear lot or clear sidewalks? Our temps have ranged between upper teens to below zero for most of the winter so far, so we are not getting any melting from Mother Nature. Ignoring small events would quickly equate to a very poorly managed sidewalk program. We use whatever means we feel will be the most cost effective to the customer to maintain these properties based on the present conditions. In 1/2" of heavy, wet snow we would likely scrape it and apply a light application of ice melter, but for 1/2 of very light, fluffy dry snow we would likely conclude that a heavier application of ice melter alone will take care of this and that is all we would do.

There is no misunderstanding of service. This is the company that originally put us in the snow business over 8 years ago by asking us to provide service to a different property that they sold last year. We still do that one for the new owner. In 8 years of servicing their properties we have not raised our prices at all, but have remained profitable by increasing efficiency through equipment and technique. Also in 8 seasons they have never expressed any concerns whatsoever and the contract and level of service has been the same throughout.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

trustyrusty;1567986 said:


> Really?!? Once 1/2" of wet snow is packed down a slip-and-fall is as likely on it as it is on 2". If you get 1/4" skiff every night and never do anything about it because it's not enough to worry about in a week that adds up to 1 3/4" of packed snow on the walk. How will you explain that to the customer who hired you to keep the walks "free of snow and ice 24/7?" I assume when you get a less than plowable snow event you do a salt run on some of your lots. Why? For the safety of foot traffic in that lot, most likely. What is more important to pedestrian safety, a clear lot or clear sidewalks? Our temps have ranged between upper teens to below zero for most of the winter so far, so we are not getting any melting from Mother Nature. Ignoring small events would quickly equate to a very poorly managed sidewalk program. We use whatever means we feel will be the most cost effective to the customer to maintain these properties based on the present conditions. In 1/2" of heavy, wet snow we would likely scrape it and apply a light application of ice melter, but for 1/2 of very light, fluffy dry snow we would likely conclude that a heavier application of ice melter alone will take care of this and that is all we would do.
> 
> There is no misunderstanding of service. This is the company that originally put us in the snow business over 8 years ago by asking us to provide service to a different property that they sold last year. We still do that one for the new owner. In 8 years of servicing their properties we have not raised our prices at all, but have remained profitable by increasing efficiency through equipment and technique. Also in 8 seasons they have never expressed any concerns whatsoever and the contract and level of service has been the same throughout.


Now that you've disclosed that there is a history there... ok, you're right.


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## plowfever (Nov 2, 2010)

I'm dealing with a similar situation at two pizza huts I do here in Indiana. Management is in Texas and is always saying we are the highest of all his customers at any of there 50 stores. We have had this account for close to ten years so it isn't like we are just building a relationship. This fall I gave them a flat rate what it would cost per visit. We got hammered with 10-12" of snow in late December and we made 6 visits to each store. We plow and salt every time. This storm was doubly bad because it started at 7am and snowed all day. So it wasn't like we could wait and do it when it was done or they would have had a mess. I'm going to tell them we had to do it this way and we have never let you down in 10 years.


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## nepatsfan (Sep 16, 2004)

How do you have zero tolerance walkways along with a 3" trigger on the parking lot? Seems like a high trigger for any parking especially if it is zero tolerance on the walkways. So you can have a nice clean walk to the lot and put your helmet and elbow pads on your way to the car.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

We have a 12 unit apartment complex (small) that we deal with.

Originally, we had skipped out on any services under 1" until we got the call to keep it at a zero tolerance.

Why???

Only because there is three of the twelve residence with handicaps. And I'm talking full out wheel chair handicaps.

By law, at least in Illinois, handicap access to the building along with the handicap parking spaces must be cleared and accessible 24 hours after a storm.

If an apartment complex doesn't have any handicap residents, they don't care......




...................


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## bob ny (Dec 2, 2012)

Buswell Forest;1567609 said:


> My contracts for logging include a stipulation that the landowner can stop me and send me packing at any time for any reason- but...They must pay me $1000 cash to cover my lost time, effort, and money in setting up the job, planning on it, and the moving costs.
> And $1000 is not even close to the actual number, but any more will scare them and they will not sign.
> Of course, if they stop me for any negligent actions on my part, the stipulation is not valid...and the state forester needs to side with them in the matter for it to happen.
> 
> I think such a stipulation in a snow plow / removal contract is prudent as well...and next year I will have all my accounts sign a simple contract to that effect.


I signed a contract with a logging company I contacted through the yellow pages . The deal was he cut down all standing dead and clean up the fallen trees which amounted to 50 trees the deal was that i would get 25% of the total but split and stacked on my location, This was last spring as soon as he was able to get in after snow melt .He hauled for two weeks ,had crews here from sun up till sundown 4 days . .Put my share in a pile in the woods cut only and never came back , out of bosiness telephone disconected,
no body in the trade knows where he went and he is not working in the area I now have all this firewood in big cuts not split piled down in the woods.wHAT GOOD IS A CONTRACT
BOB W,


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

bob ny;1568616 said:


> ......WHAT GOOD IS A CONTRACT
> 
> BOB W,


That's easy, Bob.

Contracts are only as good as the person signing them, or the lawyer who's smart enough to get you or them out of it.

A few of my customers are handshake clients. They're generally older, male gentlemen who want what used to be in the old days..... services performed on time, as described and agreed upon with honor. Anyone else I come across gets handed a contract.

Reality is, contracts are only designed to "deter" folks from suing, as if they read the contract, it puts responsibilities upon the parties where it supposed to be. When one of the parties thinks about bailing, or suing, and they remember that they signed a document accepting those terms, they rethink their lawsuit.

From the contractor's perspective, it generally means not much, as when the customer bails out, the contractor usually just moves on to the next job, as it's generally not worth the time, effort, and cost effective to pursue the customer in court. So contracts have their advantages and disadvantages, as we all are aware of.

Personally, I'd love to go back to the "handshake" deals where people performed due to "honor and respect", but I don't think it can happen where I live, or in my lifetime.


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## jhenderson9196 (Nov 14, 2010)

Bob NY. If a deal seems to good to be true ,it prob. is.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Right, contract is only as good as the parties in it. Now technically, a hand shake IS a contract, by legal definition. The only problem with that kind of contract is proving it. The paper that is signed is NOT a contract, it is PROOF OF a contract.

Now about that pile of cut-but-not-split firewood. At least you've got that. Saved you half the work.


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## subsurface (Dec 31, 2012)

you cant make a good deal with a bad person


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

jasonv;1568743 said:


> Right, contract is only as good as the parties in it. Now technically, *a hand shake IS a contract*, by legal definition. The only problem with that kind of contract is proving it. The paper that is signed is NOT a contract, it is PROOF OF a contract.


In NJ only up to $500. Beyond that it could be considered an unenforceable verbal contract.



jasonv;1568743 said:


> Now about that pile of cut-but-not-split firewood. At least you've got that. Saved you half the work.


I like your spirit... The glass is half full......Thumbs Up


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## TehTDK (Jan 17, 2013)

Here where I live a verbal contract is just as legally binding as a written one. But proving there is an actual verbal contract and what it intails is generally the problem .

Hence why I would record any verbal agreement to prevent any headaches down the road


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

A 10-12" snowfall that starts at 7am at a resuraunt that opens at 10-11am, probably closes by midnight and you service it six times, plow and salt - holy smokes, I could see the complaint.

Just my opinion here but we'd plow/salt it to get it open, let them have lunch, maybe some quick lane clearing after lunch, plow salt for dinner and maybe some quick lane clearing right after dinner.

I cringe when we plow a fast food joint for the third time in a day and don't think I'd consider a fourth ever.

Here's why:

On a beautiful sunny day, places like this have two peak periods of traffic, lunch 11:30-1:30 and dinner 5-7, same thing on a bad snow day just less traffic. The traffic is down due to the weather, the location is probably losing money to begin with due to less traffic and now you tack on 6 full out snowplowings - they are definetly losing money. 

You have to help your customer stay in business, not steal from his cash drawer.

I can keep any parking lot wet and black in any weather but I have to keep my customer in business also and the slip and fall excuse that is so quickly thrown out, it's a snowstorm.


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## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

framer1901;1569168 said:


> A 10-12" snowfall that starts at 7am at a resuraunt that opens at 10-11am, probably closes by midnight and you service it six times, plow and salt - holy smokes, I could see the complaint.
> 
> Just my opinion here but we'd plow/salt it to get it open, let them have lunch, maybe some quick lane clearing after lunch, plow salt for dinner and maybe some quick lane clearing right after dinner.
> 
> ...


In case you missed it, this was apartments, not fast food; this was walks, not plowing, and we have not serviced (shovelled and/or deiced) more than twice per day, once at 7 am when people are leaving for work and once at 5 pm when they are returning, IF there is snowfall during the day. Also we don't get 10-12" snows here, more like 2-4" snows are more common. Two of the three have a number of very handicapped residents, from totally blind (walks with cane) to totally wheelchair bound and one 28 year old girl who walks very haltingly after being severely maimed from being in multiple tragic auto accidents over the course of about 3-4 years. She's even been in the news. Long story short I feel honest about what we agreed to, the service we performed, and the service their property needs.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

I was refering to a post earlier on this one, someone said they plowed a pizza hut six times in one day.

I agree totally about making apartments safe to leave in the AM and safe on the return in the evening, makes perfect sense. I agree with shoveling the 1/2" wet snow, 1/2" of dry is extreme but the wet stuff needs to go. Something changed at that place, something like the management somewhere down the line or cash flow maybe even just a misunderstanding. It seems that no matter how hard you work, you still run across these things every now and then, I'd try to work with them open minded as best you can and see where it goes. The one thing, if it's been a long term customer, I'd be working real hard and close with them to get the wrinkles out so they want to keep being a customer in the years to come - people seem to forget the 100 good things you did and only remember the one not so good thing.


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

trustyrusty;1567525 said:


> Got fired today from three accounts for doing too good of a job. All are smaller apartment complexes, two with lots of walks and one plow only with a 3" trigger. We have a zero tolerance policy on walks and keep our walks totally clear at all times. We have been having a lot of little 1/2" overnight snows that find us clearing walks. We have only plowed once at two of these places and twice at the other.
> 
> Today the supervisor at the management company in a city hours from here sent an email to the local manager that we were no longer needed. The reason? They are over budget. Snow removal of both walks and parking areas is now the responsibility of the manager (a lady) and the maintenance man with the equipment provided by the company, namely shovels.
> 
> ...


what is your total snow accumulation there ?


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## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

Don't know. There's probably only 3-4" on the level right now as we had very high winds for several days while it was snowing and we have places with bare patches in the fields and 4' drifts in others. Really no way to know. I got some pics in the storm pictures forum in a thread titled "Sideways snow".


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## andcon83 (Dec 10, 2005)

Dogplow Dodge;1568636 said:


> A few of my customers are handshake clients. They're generally older, male gentlemen who want what used to be in the old days..... services performed on time, as described and agreed upon with honor.


ussmileyflag the only way to do business


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

trustyrusty;1569688 said:


> Don't know. There's probably only 3-4" on the level right now as we had very high winds for several days while it was snowing and we have places with bare patches in the fields and 4' drifts in others. Really no way to know. I got some pics in the storm pictures forum in a thread titled "Sideways snow".


ever use noah website to see your storm totals ?


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## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

Spool it up;1569869 said:


> ever use noah website to see your storm totals ?


The closest NOAA monitoring station is almost 30 miles away and in this area 30 miles makes a big difference. NOAA is never accurate for our exact location.


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## 04hd (Jan 3, 2013)

The dentist that I plow is 1 inch and keep it clean as possible. Salt whenever I see fit. Like he said a couple extra bag of salt is way cheaper then an injured person.I dont have a ton of accounts but the ones I have are great.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Ramairfreak98ss;1567674 said:


> Yeah we added cancellation costs, since its all too possible to go out, quote, get the job, sign all paperwork, pay $200-400 for their insurance requirements to send additional verbage for adding additional insured etc. for snow work, then staking out the place, photos and a property report... Two salts later and you salt too often so we're cancelling or whatever..
> 
> or the first snow storm of the year they don't like something and your out. I hate to bind anyone to a long term contract but its like cell phones, the termination cost is because you bought the phone at a discounted rate.. most of the time at least.


You pay to have insurance info sent out??????


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

JimMarshall;1580971 said:


> You pay to have insurance info sent out??????


We do to $ 50 per additional insured, or we could purchase a blanket additional but that's more than adding the ones we have.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

We must pay for a blanket, I haven't changed insurance at all since I took over, and thats been several years. Never paid for additional insured.


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