# How long to to 20,000 sf of walks?



## Bossman 92

Alright so an existing customer emailed today needing a price to clear 2,600 linear feet totaling almost 20,000 sf of sidewalks that range from 4' to 12' wide. We would be using single stage blowers as the snow will not be able to accumulate more than 2". My question is how long should it take 2 guys to clear 2" of snow from the walks? 

I leave tomorrow afternoon for a 2 week moose hunt and I have to have it turned in before I leave. Thanks for any info you can give me.


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## Blizzard1980

I would suggest getting a quad with plow in front and you would be done in no time. Blowers would take too much time. Quad is the way to go If you stay on top of it when snow starts to accumulate.


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## leolkfrm

skid with 8 ft blade or blower...what you propose is clearing 20 inches at a swipe...think about it...


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## BC Handyman

I do ALOT of shoveling & for under 2" I'd not even bother with a blower prob faster with a shovel, is it heavily used walks/compacted snow? if not I'd say use a 26-32" shovel, It should take about 1.5-2.0 man hrs thats by shovel, if you talking 2.5"-3" of snow I'd say ad 30-45min


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## Blizzard1980

leolkfrm;1647080 said:


> skid with 8 ft blade or blower...what you propose is clearing 20 inches at a swipe...think about it...


How would skid with 8 ft blade work on 4 ft sidewalk?


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## Advantage

BC Handyman;1647081 said:


> I do ALOT of shoveling & for under 2" I'd not even bother with a blower prob faster with a shovel, is it heavily used walks/compacted snow? if not I'd say use a 26-32" shovel, It should take about 1.5-2.0 man hrs thats by shovel, if you talking 2.5"-3" of snow I'd say ad 30-45min


I agree a shovel is usually faster than a snowblower on real light snows. But why on earth would you shovel that much sidewalk? Mechanize it and be able to do five times that amount in the same amount of man hours. ATV is a good option.


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## Blizzard1980

Advantage;1647118 said:


> I agree a shovel is usually faster than a snowblower on real light snows. But why on earth would you shovel that much sidewalk? Mechanize it and be able to do five times that amount in the same amount of man hours. ATV is a good option.


Amen. 
As i understood he has a low/ zero tolerance walkways to take care of. Too much for shovel , not enough can accumulate for heavy machinery. Just my cent and a half. Or maybe its a 6pack i just had talking..


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## Bossman 92

Thanks guys I really appreciate the help. Yea a skid will not work for us on a 4' walk. If we get the work I probably will set a quad with a plow up but I am priceing the work with the intenions of using walk behind snow blowers. Thats all we use/need now so I am trying to price it the same for now.


So is BC right in thinking less than 2 man hr? Seems real low


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## Antlerart06

Bossman 92;1647146 said:


> Thanks guys I really appreciate the help. Yea a skid will not work for us on a 4' walk. If we get the work I probably will set a quad with a plow up but I am priceing the work with the intenions of using walk behind snow blowers. Thats all we use/need now so I am trying to price it the same for now.
> 
> So is BC right in thinking less than 2 man hr? Seems real low


I was going post 3 hrs for blower but with atv doing it be like 1 hr on 2'' of snow I use to have one that size

We had blizzard and I hired a guy with a blower he was there for 5 hrs cleaning 12'' snow off walks
I figure in light snow a blower could run faster I say you be at 3 hrs


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## zlssefi

sweepster broom, broom it to the edge and run a blower around to pick it up and throw it into the grass, with less than 2 inches thats the quickest way for sure, and itll be dry when your done.


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## BC Handyman

I got a 1400' X 6' wide walk I do that is a low snow tolerance account so under .5" we putting melt down, over .5" we shoveling, sometimes we got to do it 3-4 times a day. It takes about 1hr plus or minus a bit depending on how many poeple have compacted it. On a 3" snow it takes about 1hr with 2 guys, so 2 man hrs, I figure if you doing it when it under 2" I think it should only take you 2 hrs. I will say though I dont have anything in way, no benches, shelters, just a few trees. I dont have to pile it anywhere, just push it onto road or parking lot.


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## xtreem3d

BC,
How long does it take to apply calcium to that area, man hour wise?

I'm bidding the biggest walk complex I have done to date..24,000 sq ft or about 8300 linear feet x 3 feet wide.

Your would be about 8400 sq ft so mine should be triple yours. About 6 man hours.
Any idea if that sound about right?. I am lost on this one


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## BC Handyman

What you using to spread it? 3' aint wide enough for alot of spreading options without wasting alot. As for hr wise you talking about just spreading time, or snow romoval & then de-ice?


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## xtreem3d

I can't post a pic but a walk behind spreader with the side flaps probably.

Just the time to spread the calcium only, no shoveling


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## BC Handyman

I'd imagine only an hr, maybe a bit longer if you got to walk all the way back to refill your spreader. One tip is do a quick drive & drop off a bag every few hundred feet when you going to spread, that way it save you from walking 1000's of feet back to refill.


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## Mark Oomkes

leolkfrm;1647080 said:


> skid with 8 ft blade or blower...what you propose is clearing 20 inches at a swipe...think about it...





Blizzard1980;1647086 said:


> How would skid with 8 ft blade work on 4 ft sidewalk?


Glad someone has some reading comprehension.


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## yardsmith

depending on money, a used Steiner or ventrac would work noce; they have a rotary broom attachment for light or dry snow, a straight or V plow for heavier stuff. Then you have a mower for summer.
If not, a used ATV would be nice with a 3-4 ft plow. Make sure they don't stipulate what you can & can't use. Some places will say "Oh you can't use that big thing on our walks; its too heavy or too noisy, etc.".


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## scottL

Am I mis reading this ?? Your talking about a half linear mile or nearly a half acre to SHOVEL ......

2 guys and single stage snow blowers. You best have a better plan and a good chiropractor. At least get a yard tracker with a blower attachment. You'll need to stage salt in many spots too. Good luck if you have to stack in a specific spot or you get nailed with a big storm. For those thinking they are still young bucks .... it does catch up with you. Thumbs Up



Bossman 92;1647069 said:


> Alright so an existing customer emailed today needing a price to clear 2,600 linear feet totaling almost 20,000 sf of sidewalks that range from 4' to 12' wide. We would be using single stage blowers as the snow will not be able to accumulate more than 2". My question is how long should it take 2 guys to clear 2" of snow from the walks?
> 
> I leave tomorrow afternoon for a 2 week moose hunt and I have to have it turned in before I leave. Thanks for any info you can give me.


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## cet

xtreem3d;1658704 said:


> I can't post a pic but a walk behind spreader with the side flaps probably.
> 
> Just the time to spread the calcium only, no shoveling


If you are looking for a walk behind spreader your best bet would be an Epoke Mini. They are expensive but worth every penny. It will save you in salt what you are going to waste with a broadcast spreader. 1 pass down and 1 back and your done. They hold a lot of salt also.

As for the original poster, why a single stage. I know they are fast and you can walk quickly but why not a large 2 stage, 30-36" passes. A shovel is fast but finding someone that can shovel for 2 hours straight is next to impossible.

Buying a garden tractor would be money well spent.


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## Bossman 92

cet;1659672 said:


> If you are looking for a walk behind spreader your best bet would be an Epoke Mini. They are expensive but worth every penny. It will save you in salt what you are going to waste with a broadcast spreader. 1 pass down and 1 back and your done. They hold a lot of salt also.
> 
> As for the original poster, why a single stage. I know they are fast and you can walk quickly but why not a large 2 stage, 30-36" passes. A shovel is fast but finding someone that can shovel for 2 hours straight is next to impossible.
> 
> Buying a garden tractor would be money well spent.


I guess I should have been more clear when I asked my question. I just wanted to know about how long it would take using single stage blowers for a general idea of where to begin with the quote. I know a quad would be faster but I wanted to quote the work using the tools we already have and if we landed the contract I could always add tools to make us faster and more efficient. Untill now we haven't done many walks (never wanted to have to mess with them) and single stage blowers have worked fine. Each plow truck has a shovel or a blower and the driver doesn't have to do more than 5 mins of walks once or twice a night. This client is zero tolerance both for their parking lot and now their sidewalks with almost all the walks running along the parking lot, allowing the snow to be blown into the lot and plowed off and out of the way.

They signed the contract so now I am looking for a more efficient way of doing the walks without breaking the bank.

Are you guys serious about using a garden tractor?


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## Bossman 92

scottL;1659655 said:


> Am I mis reading this ?? Your talking about a half linear mile or nearly a half acre to SHOVEL ......
> 
> 2 guys and single stage snow blowers. You best have a better plan and a good chiropractor. At least get a yard tracker with a blower attachment. You'll need to stage salt in many spots too. Good luck if you have to stack in a specific spot or you get nailed with a big storm. For those thinking they are still young bucks .... it does catch up with you. Thumbs Up


I woundn't ask anyone to SHOVEL anything of that size. I started out as the guy who had to shovel everything and I agree 100% with it catching up with you. :waving:

I was just looking for a general idea of how long it would take using single stages.


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## leigh

Bossman 92;1659707 said:


> I woundn't ask anyone to SHOVEL anything of that size. I started out as the guy who had to shovel everything and I agree 100% with it catching up with you. :waving:
> 
> I was just looking for a general idea of how long it would take using single stages.


Here's my unscientific,sitting on couch estimate. Using single stage and taking a 18" bite would equal 13330 lin ft = about 2.5 miles. Average walker takes 15mins (fast) 25 mins (slow) So depending on snow depths somewhere around 1hr (maybe unrealistic)up to maybe 2 hrs. Be safe 3 hrs X 45$ an hour = 135$ per pop!


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## scottL

Yes, dead serious about a garden tractor for a sidewalk. They are low cost, have both blower and bucket lift options. There are many options and you don't even need the grass cutting deck!

The real question about serious is you think two guys are shoveling basically a parking lot and it won't have issues :laughing:



Bossman 92;1659703 said:


> I guess I should have been more clear when I asked my question. I just wanted to know about how long it would take using single stage blowers for a general idea of where to begin with the quote. I know a quad would be faster but I wanted to quote the work using the tools we already have and if we landed the contract I could always add tools to make us faster and more efficient. Untill now we haven't done many walks (never wanted to have to mess with them) and single stage blowers have worked fine. Each plow truck has a shovel or a blower and the driver doesn't have to do more than 5 mins of walks once or twice a night. This client is zero tolerance both for their parking lot and now their sidewalks with almost all the walks running along the parking lot, allowing the snow to be blown into the lot and plowed off and out of the way.
> 
> They signed the contract so now I am looking for a more efficient way of doing the walks without breaking the bank.
> 
> Are you guys serious about using a garden tractor?


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## cet

I have posted this before but 1 major thing with the garden tractor is the blower will not lift very high. It some cases this makes it impossible to get it on a trailer without either bringing planks or modifying the ramp to get it on.

We had a John Deere 360 with a 44 or 48" blower. If you tried to load it forward the blower hit the ramp before the tires and if you tried backwards, the blower hit the ground before the front wheels made it to the ramp. We carried 10' planks to load it but it was such a PITA the guys only put 4 hours on it in 1 winter so I sold it. I will say it will work very well though.

I was talking a cheap garden tractor though, like Home Depot.


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## Bossman 92

leigh;1659730 said:


> Here's my unscientific,sitting on couch estimate. Using single stage and taking a 18" bite would equal 13330 lin ft = about 2.5 miles. Average walker takes 15mins (fast) 25 mins (slow) So depending on snow depths somewhere around 1hr (maybe unrealistic)up to maybe 2 hrs. Be safe 3 hrs X 45$ an hour = 135$ per pop!


That's real close to what I came up with. Also being a 24hr zero tolerance account the snow won't build up more than a few inches at most at a time. This particular account just wants to be as snow free as possible so if we would need to service them 6+ times a day thats not a problem to them....and we have done that for them in the past.


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## Bossman 92

cet;1659793 said:


> I have posted this before but 1 major thing with the garden tractor is the blower will not lift very high. It some cases this makes it impossible to get it on a trailer without either bringing planks or modifying the ramp to get it on.
> 
> We had a John Deere 360 with a 44 or 48" blower. If you tried to load it forward the blower hit the ramp before the tires and if you tried backwards, the blower hit the ground before the front wheels made it to the ramp. We carried 10' planks to load it but it was such a PITA the guys only put 4 hours on it in 1 winter so I sold it. I will say it will work very well though.
> 
> I was talking a cheap garden tractor though, like Home Depot.


I am not trying to come off like an a$$ or anything so please don't think I am, I am just trying to explore all my options. I like the idea of a cheap garden tractor but would we look like low ballers? Ideally I would like to add a quad to handle the walks but I am not sure how much we would actually use it. A cheap tractor would be a good way to clear some of the larger areas fast but not sure if we would look like hacks or not. Again I am not saying yourself or anyone else for that matter that uses garden tractors are hacks.

I looked around on the internet and found several decent tractors with blades or blowers for cheap. Probably a good idea.


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## Bossman 92

scottL;1659789 said:


> Yes, dead serious about a garden tractor for a sidewalk. They are low cost, have both blower and bucket lift options. There are many options and you don't even need the grass cutting deck!
> 
> The real question about serious is you think two guys are shoveling basically a parking lot and it won't have issues :laughing:


I am not sure why you keep saying shoveling? I never once mentoined shoveling.
I said snow blowing....Using snow blowers. I agree its a large area to clear but not crazy. As long as we don't wait till the end of a large storm to clear them we should be fine. Also not sure what issues we would have?


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## cet

Bossman 92;1659804 said:


> I am not trying to come off like an a$$ or anything so please don't think I am, I am just trying to explore all my options. I like the idea of a cheap garden tractor but would we look like low ballers? Ideally I would like to add a quad to handle the walks but I am not sure how much we would actually use it. A cheap tractor would be a good way to clear some of the larger areas fast but not sure if we would look like hacks or not. Again I am not saying yourself or anyone else for that matter that uses garden tractors are hacks.
> 
> I looked around on the internet and found several decent tractors with blades or blowers for cheap. Probably a good idea.


I agree I always try to look good too. Usually your work will speak for itself. I would love to have a ventrac or 3680 Kubota or anything similar but I can't justify that.

Personally the only people that would know that tractor is cheap are others in the business. It would take an experienced owner to know a cheap shinny tractor from an expensive shinny tractor.

Buy what works. If you want to try it with blowers you can always add a tractor later but I doubt Home Depot or similar will have any in stock and then you will have your hands tied a bit.


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## leigh

Maybe you can charge laborers for the privilege of working for you. Start a new exercise program," extreme insanity, butt busting, thigh firming, breast lifting, super calorie burning workout" I've seen people flipping tires, dragging huge chains , carrying big rocks! It's all in the marketing.Just hand them a shovel and yell go!


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## Bossman 92

cet;1659812 said:


> I agree I always try to look good too. Usually your work will speak for itself. I would love to have a ventrac or 3680 Kubota or anything similar but I can't justify that.
> 
> Personally the only people that would know that tractor is cheap are others in the business. It would take an experienced owner to know a cheap shinny tractor from an expensive shinny tractor.
> 
> Buy what works. If you want to try it with blowers you can always add a tractor later but I doubt Home Depot or similar will have any in stock and then you will have your hands tied a bit.


I would also love a ventrac or similar machine but can't justify one either. I am going to by a lawn tractor and set it up with probably a plow. I would much rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I would assume weight in the back tires is a must.


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## Bossman 92

leigh;1659814 said:


> Maybe you can charge laborers for the privilege of working for you. Start a new exercise program," extreme insanity, butt busting, thigh firming, breast lifting, super calorie burning workout" I've seen people flipping tires, dragging huge chains , carrying big rocks! It's all in the marketing.Just hand them a shovel and yell go!


Now we are talking! and if they can't have the walks done in 15 mins they are voted out!


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## cet

Bossman 92;1659815 said:


> I would also love a ventrac or similar machine but can't justify one either. I am going to by a lawn tractor and set it up with probably a plow. I would much rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I would assume weight in the back tires is a must.


A plow will be much faster.


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## Silverstreak

quad is the way to go, yes it doesnt get it as perfectly clean and requires a bit more calcium light and fluffy we use a push leaf blower with a backpack behind it (set the air current to forward) or just a few guys on backpacks


20000 sf = 5000 LF of 4' walk an average for a normal guy is 15LF a minute for shoveling up to 3" then production drops when accumulations go up so that is 333 minutes or 5.5 hours for one man at 35-55 per hour = $200-300

a quad could do it in less than 45 minutes at 2mph at $55 per hour

calcium under proper app rate is 277 lbs at $35 per 50lb installed is $200 

i always go wayyyy higher on those per push numbers, figure 3 guys out there constantly keeping it clear, storms last on average 7 hours is 21 hours at $40 per man hour is 840, so that is what i would price it at for 1-4" knowing im going to eat it on those 14 hours storms and make out on the clippers


good luck


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## DaveCN5

Why would you use a tractor that doesn't have 4wd? All it will take is 1 bad storm of wet heavy snow and you will be hating the tractor and the single stage blowers. Just go find a decent 4x4 quad with a plow and maybe a quad mounted spreader. You'll have it done with 1 person in no time.


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## tread lightly services

i do 8+ miles of sidewalks, yes thats right i do only sidewalks....i vote mini skid steer bobcat s70/463 can be either 36 or 42 inches wide, lifts 1500 lbs travels 7 mph has 40+ attachments including 36" or 48" snowblowers, 48" brooms, 48" or 54" straight plows, 60" v plows, and can load a salter in the back of a pickup.

also they can be used year round.


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## RSE

The quad/plow would be the way to go. Staying on top of every few inches and proper technique....you will be golden.


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## Schuley

The average walking speed of a person is between 2-4mph. I figure 2mph given that the conditions aren't exactly ideal in snow removal. 

On 1 mile of sidewalk, it would take 3 passes to clear a 4' sidewalk using a 20" single stage blower. That would be down, back, and down again, for a total of 3 miles. If they can average 2mph then it should take 1 person 1.5 hours to clear that sidewalk. 

We have a Ventrac and a broom, the 30"-36" "snow plow" shovels, and single stage blowers. We do a wide variety of sidewalks and put the ventrac on the long runs. One is 1000' of 4' walks and it takes about 10 minutes, the other is 4600' of 4' walks broken up into 8 sections, it takes about 1-1.5 hours with time spent getting from one section to the other.

Things can vary depending on what is on site, you said some of the walks were 12' wide too. Just go over there, walk it like you were pushing a blower, and see how long it takes you to do it, that will get you in the ballpark. 

I tend to lean towards 2500sqft per hour shoveling @ $45/hr.

Trust me though, like others have said, you don't really want to walk that thing all the time. On long all day storms, you could be walking 10+ miles per storm just keeping it clean...


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## Bossman 92

Well here is a little update on this job. We had our first snowfall of the season this week and my guys did a nice job. Took 2 guys just shy of 2 hrs (4 man hrs) to clear and throw icemelt on these walks.

Blowers will be the weapon of choice for now. With the snowfall not being able to build up to deep we should be able to keep up without killing ourselver.

Also is everyone charging $45 an hour for walk guys? If so what are you paying your guys? 

I am quite a bit higher than you but I am also paying $20 an hr.


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## derekbroerse

Forgive the crudeness of the photographs, and the fact that the machine has never really been finished or prettied up, but here was my solution to a similar problem.

I have two large commercial properties next to each other. Both are owned and designed (badly, but they won a ton of awards for them!) the same way. There are 4' sidewalks surrounding the buildings, over 1/3 mile on the one building alone! The sidewalks run along the curb of the parking lot, the other side has "garden space" covered in 1-2" river rock, then plate glass windows!

Snowblowers are the obvious solution when things get heavy, blow into the empty lot and scoop it away with the truck or loader. Can't blow into the garden, any stray rocks will get thrown thru the glass! (brilliant planning right?)

No problem after hours, this becomes a real problem when you need to keep the walks open while the staff is in the building during the day! What are you gonna do, blow it onto their cars? Rocks do wonders for cars too! Hand shovelling was the solution for a while, but trust me THAT SUCKS especially in those storms where you could literally stay on one property all damn day!

So this was my solution... An old runs good looks bad $75 special of a snowblower, rip the blower head off and mount a 42" angling blade from a Craftsman lawn tractor, new wheels/tires from ebay (loaded with washer fluid) and a pair of front cast iron wheel weights from a Poulan tractor (ebay)... shake and stir and come up with this ugly but effective abortion--the walk behind plow. The idea came from those vintage Gravely tractors... just cheaper and newer/more reliable engine etc.

The advantage is maneuverability vs a quad or tractor, still fits in a pickup no problem, simple to operate--pick a gear and squeeze the trigger... angle with the lever just like on a tractor. Climbs ramps, no clearance issues. Climbs curbs.

Costs...
Blower (old MTD Snowflite) $ 75
42" Craftsman Blade $100
Wheels/Tires (ebay) $ 60
Wheel Weights (ebay) $ 20
Washer Fluid (3 jugs) $ 9
incidentals/shop supply $ 50

Cheap and reliable. Easily plows 6" of heavy crap, though meant more for the 2-3" falls. For me it pushes it into the garden space without tossing rocks while cars block the other direction... or into the lot when it's empty. ANYONE who can operate an electric drill can make one of these....

Mine is a little light on the nose (hence the weights on the blade), the finished version will have the 110v electric starter removed and the 12v one added, with a car battery forward of the axle on top of the angle irons pictured. It will have lights and everything else, too.

Let's just say it works better than it looks.... lmao Probably not for everyone but simple and effective.


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## Mister Plow

Sweeeet!!!


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## rjigto4oje

Mister Plow;1673646 said:


> Sweeeet!!!


I plowed an condo like the one described the used quads much faster than a snow blower imo


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## dodge2500

Mister Plow;1673646 said:


> Sweeeet!!!


We probably do 10-15 miles of sidewalks each storm and several are the zero tolerance type. We have two kubota bx tractors with hydraulic blades and also quick attach blowers if the snow gets deep we change from blade to blower. We also use an ATv sometimes but the hydrostatic 4x4 tractors can plow circles around the ATv. We also have blowers both single and two stage but the number one weapon of choice for the lights snows, 1-3 inch type events, is te snow caster push plows or something similar. You will be amazed how fast you can clear walks with these push plows. We probably have 20 of them. Every truck carries one and so do all sidewalk personnel. It is a great 100 dollar option. Definitely worth trying.


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## fozzy

tread lightly services;1672765 said:


> i do 8+ miles of sidewalks, yes thats right i do only sidewalks....i vote mini skid steer bobcat s70/463 can be either 36 or 42 inches wide, lifts 1500 lbs travels 7 mph has 40+ attachments including 36" or 48" snowblowers, 48" brooms, 48" or 54" straight plows, 60" v plows, and can load a salter in the back of a pickup.
> 
> also they can be used year round.


My vote is the same. Plus you can have an enclosed cab and heat. Equals happy operator.


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