# Sub rates for 08-09



## BigDave12768 (Nov 17, 2006)

with unleaded quickly approaching $4 gallon and Diesel should be over $5 gallon next season. Any thoughts on sub rates this years rate was 60-65hr I would think next season $80hr with fuel costs. most subs justs do it as part time gig and wont hold onto truck with raising fuel costs. other thoughts are will business cut back on snow plowing till they are pretty much buried.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

A "SUB-contractor is a "contractor" who works for a contractor
not an employee who uses his own tools or equipment.

The contractor who holds the contract is called the "General Contractor" If they hire a contractor this contractor just became a "Sub-Contractor". The people who wort for the contractors are called "Employees"

I'm a contractor and I can not turn a profit at $60 to 65 and hr.
It will be more like $145 to $175 an hr. Maybe more by fall we'll see.

I think your an employee at those rates.
(Their is nothing wrong with being an employee)
Read what the IRS has to say about this, take a look around their site.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

Snofarmer he's actually correct in his use of the term sub contractor for this area. The state of Massachusetts hires out subs (about 2500-3000 per storm) with prices ranging from 65-135 per hour depending on what equipment they are "subbing". And yes I suspect sub rates will go up but I also expect it won't keep up as much as it should. I plan on hiring less subs next year but mostly due to probably having less work. I suspect it will still take several years for these prices to trickle their way through the system. Still too many guys doing this type of work here to weed out the stupid ones anytime soon.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

The IRS trumps any state.
Their definition goes for every state in the union
Can you post something to back that up JDplower?

If he means a substitute plower then they are still an employee.


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

Lets just say this, the state of Mass has to my knowledge never been sued successfully when it comes employee benefits regarding snow removal. If it had then it would essentially cripple the state's snow removal plan. Also the state has been hiring subs since I think the early seventies (maybe earlier) and thats an awful long time to be "lucky" when it comes to not having to pay benefits to injured workers or the other associated costs with hiring employee’s. This subject has been discussed many times before (here and on other sites) and people will believe what they want and that’s fine by me since I don’t work for the state, I just know people who do. As far I’m concerned,this horse is dead and I’m not going to exhume the body anytime soon.


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## Niteman9 (Jan 6, 2007)

SnoFarmer;554547 said:


> A "SUB-contractor is a "contractor" who works for a contractor
> not an employee who uses his own tools or equipment.
> 
> The contractor who holds the contract is called the "General Contractor" If they hire a contractor this contractor just became a "Sub-Contractor". The people who wort for the contractors are called "Employees"
> ...


I have seen you say over over. Well I sub for a lawn care company who sends me a 1099. When I did my taxes turbo tax told me I had business and need to file on my taxes this way.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

JD PLOWER;554562 said:


> Lets just say this, the state of Mass has to my knowledge never been sued successfully when it comes employee benefits regarding snow removal. If it had then it would essentially cripple the state's snow removal plan. Also the state has been hiring subs since I think the early seventies (maybe earlier) and thats an awful long time to be "lucky" when it comes to not having to pay benefits to injured workers or the other associated costs with hiring employee's. This subject has been discussed many times before (here and on other sites) and people will believe what they want and that's fine by me since I don't work for the state, I just know people who do. As far I'm concerned,this horse is dead and I'm not going to exhume the body anytime soon.


A. Have you read the IRS'S site?

So we are on the same page, when we use the word "SUB" that we are referring to a "contractor" by the definitions put forth by the IRS?

Your state is the "General Contractor", you the citizen are the client.
Then any contractor the state hires is a "sub-contractor" and not an employee.

That's all fine and dandy but you and I know you can't make $ plowing for $60-65 an hr.as a contractor.
Not using your own truck, paying ins, paying for SS, comp.etc etc.



Niteman9;554570 said:


> I have seen you say over over. Well I sub for a lawn care company who sends me a 1099. When I did my taxes turbo tax told me I had business and need to file on my taxes this way.


That's great, good for you.
I'll ask you too did you read the IRS's site?
Do you meat all the criteria or did you fall short?
Just because they send you a 1099 & quick books says so does not mean you have not been misclassified.

If you are then congrats your a contractor.
Everyone on this site is a contractor too I guess.
Not one employee?
(not that their is anything wrong with that.)

So what's your point?


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

SnoFarmer;554583 said:


> A. Have you read the IRS'S site?
> 
> So we are on the same page, when we use the word "SUB" that we are referring to a "contractor" by the definitions put forth by the IRS?


I guess I just don't care that much about the definition of the word "sub". As long as the one's I hire have the proper insurance and equipment, they can call themselves snow faries as far I'm concerned as long they do what is expected of them.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

JD PLOWER;554586 said:


> I guess I just don't care that much about the definition of the word "sub". As long as the one's I hire have the proper insurance and equipment, they can call themselves snow faries as far I'm concerned as long they do what is expected of them.


yea........

Employee or contractor.

As an employer or a contractor who hires a sub-contractor or an employee you should be very concerned with this definition as it could come up in court some day as your being sued for or sueing for workmanscomp, S.S. or taxes.
Have ever been audited by the IRS?
I have.
With your attitude, you woun't like it...

Anyway, I'll sell me trucks and sleep in if I only made $60-65 an hr plowing snow.

Your ins, truck and a W2 ,now we can talk...


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

Snowfarmer playin "Mr.Know-it-all" again.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

i think its that time of the year


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

creativedesigns;554598 said:


> Snowfarmer playin "Mr.Know-it-all" again.


I haven't seen snowfarmer respond to this thread yet. cre....

I didn't see your horse in the race?
Ho, wait, was it the dead one a few posts back?

Naw, I'm not right the IRS IS...

But hey, if your business can afford to bill out a truck with a plow and operator etc,etc,at $65 bucks an hr thats great.
No matter how I do the numbers as a contractor I can't come close to making money at tat rate and I own everything.


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

What the hell are you smoking Farmer. Are you being serious ? The guy asked about sub rates and you start grilling him about employee vs sub...Am i blind or did i miss something, I dont recall him mentioning this anywhere in his post....And $65 an hour is what subs get on average, some places more and some less but there are hundreds of thousands of them out there...


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## Indy (Sep 23, 2007)

creativedesigns;554598 said:


> Snowfarmer playin "Mr.Know-it-all" again.


In Indiana they call it an "Independent Sub-Contractor" working under a "Contractor"and you are 1099'd and have no employee benifits or withholding


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

BNC SERVICES;554638 said:


> What the hell are you smoking Farmer. Are you being serious ? The guy asked about sub rates and you start grilling him about employee vs sub...Am i blind or did i miss something, I dont recall him mentioning this anywhere in his post....And $65 an hour is what subs get on average, some places more and some less but there are hundreds of thousands of them out there...


WTF...back at ya.
Very serious.
Naw, I'm not "grilling" him, am I quoiting him over and over?
As far as the rate of $60-65 an hr goes, I have expressed my opinion as it being
a bit to to low.

As long as we are calling a sub the same thing?
He is a contractor who is working for a contractor as def by the IRS..

What floors me is that everyone on this site is a contractor and not one employee.

A lot of them "subs" are really employees that are being taken advantage of and helping portray a fraud. It's called tax evasion.

As a contractor , general or sub your still a contractor with the same bills I have to run a business all the INS, LIC, maintenance costs, operating costs etc etc how can you make money at $65 an hr. I would be paying them for the privilege.

I remember a tread where everyone said that they charge $100 to $200+ an hr for a truck with an operator. So, how can bill out this same truck and operator for $60 -65 an hr?

So now do you see what I'm talking about?
Or do I need to paint you a Pic?

Ps. Things were dead around hear I thought I would liven them up a little.................


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

I think the "Sno" has gotten to the " Farmer" ?!?! lol ....


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## Indy (Sep 23, 2007)

Contractor = responsible for the contract with the customer and all the liability, risk, profit, scheduling, and all details regarding service. Pays taxes on his profits or pays for repairs IF he even works on the job at all. Say he agrees to get one million an acre. HE keeps the profit if he gets the work done cheaper.

SUB-Contractor = works under the contractor as agreed on a job by job basis and typically have less risk (although they are insured, typically on there own but work at the discretion of the contractor) Some contractor will cover them with their insurance just to make sure they aren't working un-insured.



The contractor can higher one or two or ten or a hundred SUB contractors to do the work he has contracted for. If he over shoots on labor he eats it, if he under shoots on labor he is stuck working or paying additional hours he didn't intend to pay.........either way and anyway it is his win or his loss and the SUB contractors get paid, usually by the hour and usually at the rate that has been discussed here. 

At the end of the given pay period the Contractor will pay the sub contractor a full cash amount of pay (no taxes, no insurance, no equipment repairs) just hourly or per job.

At the end of the year, normally Jan 1 to Jan 31 (latest by law) the Contractor will send a 1099 to the SUB contractor stating he was a sub contractor and he made $ this much money AND the CONTRACTOR will also send that information to the IRS, however many SUB contractor DON'T report that as income and can and likely will face fines and penalties from the IRS for not reporting, but that does not affect the contractor.

This is the only way i have ever seen a contractor use a sub-contractor. Other than that if you work for a contractor, you are an employee and taxes will be taken out of your pay and benefits offered as per a standard employer/employee relationship.


Just my .02


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## Indy (Sep 23, 2007)

BigDave12768;554531 said:


> with unleaded quickly approaching $4 gallon and Diesel should be over $5 gallon next season. Any thoughts on sub rates this years rate was 60-65hr I would think next season $80hr with fuel costs. most subs justs do it as part time gig and wont hold onto truck with raising fuel costs. other thoughts are will business cut back on snow plowing till they are pretty much buried.


I think your on the money Big Dave, but we will see how the summer and fall unfold and unfortunately you may be low on your next season price it is a good question that I don't think we can answer (what is fair to pay or what is fair to ask for) until we get a little closer.:salute:

Gas=
Diesel=:realmad:


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## PaulSmith (Feb 19, 2008)

creativedesigns, ......roflmao......


Sno? Am I a subcontractor?


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## Quality SR (Oct 25, 2006)

BigDave12768;554531 said:


> with unleaded quickly approaching $4 gallon and Diesel should be over $5 gallon next season. Any thoughts on sub rates this years rate was 60-65hr I would think next season $80hr with fuel costs. most subs justs do it as part time gig and wont hold onto truck with raising fuel costs. other thoughts are will business cut back on snow plowing till they are pretty much buried.


The rates by me were $65 an hour for a sub ( pick up 8 footer) More for a V. Contractors normally got $125- $150 an hour. And $25 for shovelers. I dont know what contractors got in your area. But if there not making at least $150 an hour, i dont know if you being a sub will get $80. But who knows, everything will be going up by next winter. Contractors will have to raise there rates too. So will you get $80 an hours at this rate, maybe.


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## 2003ctd (Sep 4, 2007)

I was paying all my subs, $65-$75 an hour depending on equipment... I have already talked to a few of them, that said they will not work this year for anything less $95 an hour. All we can do is pass it on to the consumer. $175 to fill up our diesels from empty, can't blame them for wanting more.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

2003ctd;559494 said:


> $175 to fill up our diesels from empty, can't blame them for wanting more.


thats why you should have a gasser:waving:


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## 2003ctd (Sep 4, 2007)

Yea but our cummins are averaging 17-19 mpg around town empty...Can't get that with a gasser


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## StoneDevil (Dec 13, 2007)

umm i have read this entire thread and agree with SnoFarmer.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

StoneDevil;559506 said:


> umm i have read this entire thread and agree with SnoFarmer.


He is correct.
Whether or not people follow those rules is a different story.
My insurance audits tend to be similar to the IRS's perspective on employees as well.


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## Dissociative (Feb 28, 2007)

ok...so i am friggin lost now....i was under the assumption i was a sub...my boss gets the work...pays me hourly with a 1099...i use all my own stuff to do the job...cover my own gas, ect. ect. 


am i an employee getting taken advantage of? or a sub? my tax guy files a schedule C on that money....usually 70-90 per hour


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## Tuxx (Sep 11, 2007)

2003ctd;559494 said:


> I was paying all my subs, $65-$75 an hour depending on equipment... I have already talked to a few of them, that said they will not work this year for anything less $95 an hour. All we can do is pass it on to the consumer. $175 to fill up our diesels from empty, can't blame them for wanting more.


What happens if you are lowballed on all your bids?
Doesn`t everybody and their brother have a truck with a plow?
With companys leaving or going under,what if they can no longer afford your services?
I dream of plowing in a area where setting your own rate is the norm.
Also,is there a common scale used to set rates to be paid to a plower,like size of truck,size of plow,vee versus straight,2 versus 4 wheel,single versus dual wheel and so on?
Thanks


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## KGRlandscapeing (May 2, 2007)

Tuxx;560402 said:


> What happens if you are lowballed on all your bids?
> Doesn`t everybody and their brother have a truck with a plow?
> With companys leaving or going under,what if they can no longer afford your services?
> I dream of plowing in a area where setting your own rate is the norm.
> ...


if somebody under bids you there a fool i mean if u can afford to do it for free have fun. i cant


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

KGRlandscapeing;566026 said:


> if somebody under bids you there a fool i mean if u can afford to do it for free have fun. i cant


Thats why landscapers are droping like flies around here, many decent sized 10 plus truck companies are folding here. There competion is a couple Wet Backs a truck and they bill at $12 an hour  The Legit guy cant compete, and no one wants to pay $100 to get there lawn mowed when Paco and his shiney backs will do it for $22
But hey the good news is Flip Floper "Change" is gonna pass an Amnesty bill so everything will get better LMFAO !


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

T-MAN;566053 said:


> Thats why landscapers are droping like flies around here, many decent sized 10 plus truck companies are folding here. There competion is a couple Wet Backs a truck and they bill at $12 an hour  The Legit guy cant compete, and no one wants to pay $100 to get there lawn mowed when Paco and his shiney backs will do it for $22
> But hey the good news is Flip Floper "Change" is gonna pass an Amnesty bill so everything will get better LMFAO !


those guys dont stand a chance where im from...one slip up of service and there out the window..maybe its different where your from


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## tls22 (Sep 30, 2007)

T-MAN;566053 said:


> Thats why landscapers are droping like flies around here, many decent sized 10 plus truck companies are folding here. There competion is a couple Wet Backs a truck and they bill at $12 an hour  The Legit guy cant compete, and no one wants to pay $100 to get there lawn mowed when Paco and his shiney backs will do it for $22
> But hey the good news is Flip Floper "Change" is gonna pass an Amnesty bill so everything will get better LMFAO !


We had the same problem here in jersey....they where all gone after one season! They dont stand a chance...with the workload they take on and the cheap prices they give! I would not worry to much about it! I kno there is laws on all types of stuff.....but there are not many people that actually in force it! So until then we will continue to have this problem! Its the only business where expenses go up and the price of jobs go down!


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## F350 Snowman (Aug 21, 2006)

If those "guys" can lowball. I let them have it. I am not going to try to compete with those fools, i will stay in my nice warm and test drive my wife some more before i will start my F350, and go to work just to lose money.


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## PLOWMAN45 (Jul 2, 2003)

depending on gas prices if i contract i want 160 to 180 a hr


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

T-MAN;566053 said:


> Thats why landscapers are droping like flies around here, many decent sized 10 plus truck companies are folding here. There competion is a couple Wet Backs a truck and they bill at $12 an hour  The Legit guy cant compete, and no one wants to pay $100 to get there lawn mowed when Paco and his shiney backs will do it for $22


Thats odd since in this area the decent sized companies are the ones who employ the most illieagals by far. Thats generally how they get that size. Sure they have some on Visa's but for the most part they're hiring off the street. These aren't fly by night operators either, most have been around for 10-15 years. I see these outfits every storm with their trucks full of drivers with "international drivers license" operators. From what I've been told they also pay them the same during winter as summer.


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## PLOWMAN45 (Jul 2, 2003)

i blame that law magazine add helping illegals stay with work visa's


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