# Leasing or buying used?



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

My long time excavator sub is no longer plowing...too much dirt work and guys are shot after a night of plowing. He's not the only one, quite a few are getting out of it. 

Ran some numbers for a lease machine and using some averages, we were getting off much cheaper using their loader and an operator. 

Leased loader is brand new. All maintenance is included in the lease price as well as a 5 year warranty. But the number of hours on average per season, plus operator wages, fuel and insurance push the hourly rate higher than what we are charging. So if we have lower than average snow those costs go up, above average the costs go down except fuel and labor. They also figure about $13,000 in scheduled maintenance over the 5 years. 

I also ran some numbers on the 244 I was leasing vs my Kubota M125X which has had some significant repairs. Even factoring the purchase price of the 'Bota, it still was cheaper. Different machines but it was the closest in price and capabilities. 

Add to that, I'm old-fashioned and like to see some iron sitting in my yard that I own after paying a chunk of change. 

So would you buy a used machine, with more potential for repairs and breakdowns but overall a lower hourly rate or lease one that will still sit for 7 months?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm even more old fashioned than you. Almost never buy new and never lease. 
I also like having subs, so they can deal with equipment. 
Would it be possible to find a new sub? If it doesn't snow, you're not looking at a leased, or purchased piece of equipment not paying for itself.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> I'm even more old fashioned than you. Almost never buy new and never lease.
> I also like having subs, so they can deal with equipment.
> Would it be possible to find a new sub? If it doesn't snow, you're not looking at a leased, or purchased piece of equipment not paying for itself.


We're checking, but most are already committed and the rest don't want anything to do with it anymore.

Seasonal contracts will cover the costs.

Snow is getting tough, finding operators or people that want to work the crappy, undependable hours. Just look at last year...nobody could depend on snow work for income.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> We're checking, but most are already committed and the rest don't want anything to do with it anymore.
> 
> Seasonal contracts will cover the costs.
> 
> Snow is getting tough, finding operators or people that want to work the crappy, undependable hours. Just look at last year...nobody could depend on snow work for income.


I'm sure you've asked this question of others on PS; would you have other work for it if it doesn't snow?


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

With equipment you own, you also have the possibility if recouping some of that cost via selling (or trading) it when you’re done with it. The unknown, of course, is what the market is like when you decide to sell.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Add to that, I'm old-fashioned and like to see some iron sitting in my yard that I own after paying a chunk of change.


We are going through the same thing right now with a tracked skid...for what we can pay on a 36 month lease we can own a fairly new low hour machine.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> I'm sure you've asked this question of others on PS; would you have other work for it if it doesn't snow?


No, my 544 gets used a little here and there around the yard and the 244 is a great forklift. Bobcat is really the only thing that gets used a lot year round.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> No, my 544 gets used a little here and there around the yard and the 244 is a great forklift. Bobcat is really the only thing that gets used a lot year round.


Is the lease machine equipped with a snorkel?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> Is the lease machine equipped with a snorkel?


Check your text...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Check your text...


Oh, I did...still laughing at the emoji.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So would you buy a used machine, with more potential for repairs and breakdowns but overall a lower hourly rate or lease one that will still sit for 7 months?


neethur...instead, by all of Plow4beers **** And hire more seasonal help


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> We're checking, but most are already committed and the rest don't want anything to do with me.


i buhleave it


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Leasing only makes sense if you have the cash flow to support it. And it seems that as time goes bye there appears to be less cash as overhead items like insurance continue to go up. The trick is to find units that are 10 to 15 years coming off leases with extremely low hours. But even then you tie up a tremendous pile of money on something that you use 10 percent of the time I think we are in for some interesting times in the near future once the businessmen realize that the economy has come to a halt. Nobody is in the stores buying things. I went for a MRI, there was no waiting in line, two of us patients , one administrator, 4 doctors, 4 technicians, 12 nurses and one receptionist. Thank god for covid funds to pay them. I think there will be a a whole new way of looking at snow removal priorities this winter 
I commend you on looking into the lease versus buy accounting . It's just something you have to do every year


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm pretty sure I know the answer, just wondering if I'm missing something. 

Spent too much money this year already.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

The key is to find used equipment that has a record of maintenance, and is in good operating condition, without paying a premium for it. Use the instinct that you've inherited through your DNA - it comes in handy.

Truth is it takes time and patience (2 things I don't have enough of) to wait for the right piece. In other instances, some items retain their value so well that it actually makes economical sense to buy/lease new. What works for us has been equipment (usually with a 10+ year life expectancy) is purchased. Trucks are leased (unlimited mileage). A good truck will hang around long after the lease, those that have been difficult are generally liquidated soon after the lease is done.

I have also found that buying equipment just for snow doesn't always make sense at the time, but often the changes from year to year open new opportunities due to their availability in your fleet. We now have several pieces collecting dust all summer - and while it's not ideal, I don't loose sleep over it.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Used tractor market may see an increase of inventory due the "Derecho" storm wiping oot a huge amount of Korn.
I leased a vehicle once and never again. Sure payments are cheaper but you have no equity at the end of it.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

I would sell all your Winter equipment and concentrate your resources on mowing only... Take the Winter off and sit back and watch your bird feeders... You should be able to then devote more time to PS also...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> Used tractor market may see an increase of inventory due the "Derecho" storm wiping oot a huge amount of Korn.
> *I leased a vehicle once and never again. Sure payments are cheaper but you have no equity at the end of it.*


You're Dutch?

I have 2 tractors for plowing. After running the 244 a couple times I just don't like tractors for plowing. Driveway rigs yes, parking lots no.

Also like what the one guy in the driveway blower thread is doing, running a 6 Series Deere on his driveways...they're just that much more tractor.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I would sell all your Winter equipment and concentrate your resources on mowing only... Take the Winter off and sit back and watch your bird feeders... You should be able to then devote more time to PS also...


You interested in buying it?

In all seriousness, that is a consideration especially with Bella.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You're Dutch?
> 
> I have 2 tractors for plowing. After running the 244 a couple times I just don't like tractors for plowing. Driveway rigs yes, parking lots no.
> 
> Also like what the one guy in the driveway blower thread is doing, running a 6 Series Deere on his driveways...they're just that much more tractor.


Nope... extended family did invade Holland a couple time last century...
Just like to see some return on my money.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


> My long time excavator sub is no longer plowing...too much dirt work and guys are shot after a night of plowing. He's not the only one, quite a few are getting out of it.
> 
> Ran some numbers for a lease machine and using some averages, we were getting off much cheaper using their loader and an operator.
> 
> ...


I'll give my 2 cents on this (about all it's worth, as I am not in the business).

IMHO, buy used rather than lease.

I have never seen the point of a lease unless it is short term for a specific project and you need a lot of hours in a short time (e.g. you have a highway job to do, but it will take more equipment than you have. Lease it for the job, and then turn it back in, with the lease cost built into your bid.)

The problem when you don't have a known time constraint is that you can wind up spending more money on a lease than buying equipment. For example, the airport where my hangars are leased 3 trucks and an excavator to the tune of about $30K per month to move some dirt to move a road for a runway project. On paper it was better than purchasing. However, we had a wet spring, and with weather, permits, etc., they wound up paying far more than if they had bought some used trucks and sold them after the project.

They also had lots of reliability problems, so I'm not sure that new is more reliable. More comfortable, quieter, yes. More reliable - I'm not sure that experience bears this out, especially with the new, more heavily electronic equipment. Somehow, the warranty never applied to the problems, so unless it is a comprehensive warranty (less wear and tear items like tires/brakes), I'm not sure what it is worth.

Some of the decision has to do with the facilities you have and the comfort level you have in fixing issues.

I have never bought a new piece of equipment, or a new personal vehicle, and have never leased equipment or a vehicle.

Based on my experience with used equipment (and you probably already know these), there are a few show-stoppers for me -

Has it ever seen salt - If yes, walk away
Are maintenance records available - if yes, definite bonus. If no, look very closely at it.
Ask if they will let a 3rd party inspector look at it - if No, walk away.
Hours are more important than age.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Some of the decision has to do with the facilities you have and the *enjoyment you get out of* fixing issues. *And posting the photos of the fixes online later.*


We know


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I'll give my 2 cents on this (about all it's worth, as I am not in the business).
> 
> IMHO, buy used rather than lease.


Like I said, I pretty much knew the answer after looking at the numbers and trying it with my 244. I don't think I'll stop with the Bobcat just because of the emissions and electrical crap on it, but who knows.


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## Snow Business 1 (Oct 15, 2012)

Where are you with sec 179 Depreciation for the year? Given the 1 mil amount has you at least should considered buying with low interest rate. Pretty much all John Deere equipment I have is at 0% and being able to depreciate it 100% in the first year is pretty nice. 

I'm in a similar situation.....I need 10 additional skid steers for this winter. Debating buying, lease, rent or a mix. Need to decide by the end of the month.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Maybe I go about this wrong but I’d rather buy new or close or very close to new. I’d also rather finance over a longer term. The machine doesn’t always pencil out for the job it’s doing but I know that I’ll be running it for next 15 years. We have have snow only tractors that were bought new in 2004 and they still plow every storm so they help to pay for the updated equipment. I like to look at the business as a whole and If the money is there I’d rather add to fleet to keep some machinery current instead of being left with just a bunch of old junk. I have been moving towards more subs also as there seems to be a lot of young eager farmers in our area that want to make extra Money. I know you don’t like Facebook but there’s farms groups in your area that might be helpful with finding subs. If you treat the first one well they will know lots of others in the farming community.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thanks Dave...for some reason I always appreciate your input. 

So does anyone have experience with Case loaders? I know they're lower end than Cat, Deere or Komatsu, but I am thinking that maybe just pushing snow and not being used year round it might not be a bad investment. But the pricing on used Case kind of reminds of Furds with 6.0s and 6.4s. They're a lot lower than a comparable size Cat or Deere. 

I've been looking around and I'm guessing Deere 644Ks have issues, because when I search 644 for sale, 90% are Ks. 544s are mixed models, from Cs to Ks. 

Also considering one size up from my 544 because of the 18' pusher. It could also give me the option of a larger PlowMaxx down the road.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So does anyone have experience with Case loaders?


Yes but it was a 621D so an older model. Its a good overall machine.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Also considering one size up from my 544 because of the 18' pusher. It could also give me the option of a larger PlowMaxx down the road.


That's reason enough to splurge on another deere


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

m_ice said:


> Yes but it was a 621D so an older model. Its a good overall machine.


Well, I'm going to try to go look at a 721D.

Thanks

I'm trying to get some info on a couple 644's...not K's.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

721 is on the larger size for snow , lots of older 521 - 621 around here , Heard they are dependable . Guys I know like them .


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Well, I'm going to try to go look at a 721D.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> I'm trying to get some info on a couple 644's...not K's.


K.... ewe do that


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> K.... ewe do that


I will.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

https://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/hvo/d/mchenry-case-621d-wheel-loader/7175439641.html


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

m_ice said:


> https://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/hvo/d/mchenry-case-621d-wheel-loader/7175439641.html


The 721 I'm hoping to look at is not in Chiraq.

The 644s are in Minniesoda.



SHAWZER said:


> 721 is on the larger size for snow , lots of older 521 - 621 around here , Heard they are dependable . Guys I know like them .


It is kinda, but for an 18' pusher it won't be at the top end of the power all the time.

Same thing happened when I was shopping for my other loader. Ran a 444 and really liked it. Then I ran a worn out 544 or 54 tool carrier or whatever and really, really like the bigger machine for loading. Ended up finding a nice 544 out of Floriduh. Case dealer dropped off a 721G for a demo...dang it's nice. But I just can't make the numbers work on a new one.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> The 721 I'm hoping to look at is not in Chiraq.


Manteno is not Chicago... just so you know...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

You need to be looking for whatever machine comes with an operator/employee...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> Manteno is not Chicago... just so you know...


My bad...just looked at where the CL listing was.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Here you go!
You could probably manage to get a kage or a protech, or even a versatech...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Here you go!
> You could probably manage to get a kage or a protech, or even a versatech...
> View attachment 205929


Wonder if the 5 gal bucket next to it is for all the salt spillage...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Wonder if the 5 gal bucket next to it is for all the salt spillage...


Brown gold!!!!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So I get a text with a listing for '99 544H. Some silverback over in Detoilet.

Another loader same year and same model as I already have wouldn't be a bad option either. It's closer than the Case, has more hours than my current one and needs tyres. If I were to buy it, I could transfer the tires and rims ( @BUFF ) from the gooder one to the badder one and put snow tyres on the gooder one for plowing and use the badder one for loading salt.

I hate these decisions. At least it's only a half hour away.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So I get a text with a listing for '99 544H. Some silverback over in Detoilet.
> 
> Another loader same year and same model as I already have wouldn't be a bad option either. It's closer than the Case, has more hours than my current one and needs tyres. If I were to buy it, I could transfer the tires and rims ( @BUFF ) from the gooder one to the badder one and put snow tyres on the gooder one for plowing and use the badder one for loading salt.
> 
> I hate these decisions. At least it's only a half hour away.


Then you're going to have the same issue the gooder one had with the badder one, a tire up front with low air pressure causing more then a 5 gal bucket of spillage...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Then you're going to have the same issue the gooder one had with the badder one, a tire up front with low air pressure causing more then a 5 gal bucket of spillage...


I never have been that good.

And I can even see the end of the bucket without standing up in the cab...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

My mekanik says Deere enjuns get expensive after 10,000ish hours. He said he'd like to tell me to buy it because then I would see him more. 

My wife doesn't even say that.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> My mekanik says Deere enjuns get expensive after 10,000ish hours. He said he'd like to tell me to buy it because then I would see him more.
> 
> My wife doesn't even say that.


What?


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

BUFF said:


> What?


Yes


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

what aboot a kitty

https://denver.craigslist.org/hvd/d/caterpillar-938g-wheel-loader/7175631271.html


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

You asked about case. I can't remember the whole story, but a friend had one start on fire. I can't remember if there was something that was Jerry rigged, or whatever. I'll ask him when I see him.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> You asked about case. I can't remember the whole story, but a friend had one start on fire. I can't remember if there was something that was Jerry rigged, or whatever. I'll ask him when I see him.


Maybe that's why he was pushing me towards the 721 with lower hours...he can rebuild a burnt one.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

He did say it should have a Cummings in it, either the 5.9 or possibly the 8.3. And everyone knows I that I like Cummings.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> He did say it should have a Cummings in it, either the 5.9 or possibly the 8.3. And everyone knows I that I like Cummings.


So do 1845's do you have a fleet of those...?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So do 1845's do you have a fleet of those...?


No


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So do 1845's do you have a fleet of those...?


Those have 3.9s


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

m_ice said:


> Those have 3.9s


3.9 whats?


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> 3.9 whats?


Not enough cylinders for Mark


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> 3.9 whats?


4bt's


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

m_ice said:


> 4bt's


Witch R?


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Witch R?


Yes


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

521 was a 3.9 4bt
621 was always a 5.9 6bt
721/821 was an 8.3 IIRC


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

GMC Driver said:


> 521 was a 3.9 4bt
> 621 was always a 5.9 6bt
> 721/821 was an 8.3 IIRC


What! No L10's...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Well, guess I can use the 544 for plowing and buy an excavator for loading salt...wonder if I can not spill any salt?

https://www.westernplows.com/gallery/striker-compact-video-2020/


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

GMC Driver said:


> 521 was a 3.9 4bt
> 621 was always a 5.9 6bt
> 721/821 was an 8.3 IIRC


The 721D I looked at had an Iveco diezel.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Well, guess I can use the 544 for plowing and buy an excavator for loading salt...wonder if I can not spill any salt?
> 
> https://www.westernplows.com/gallery/striker-compact-video-2020/


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Well, guess I can use the 544 for plowing and buy an excavator for loading salt...wonder if I can not spill any salt?
> 
> https://www.westernplows.com/gallery/striker-compact-video-2020/


Why would they even make something like that? And why would they put the bulk brown in it?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> Why would they even make something like that? And why would they put the bulk brown in it?


No clue to either question.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Luther said:


> Why would they even make something like that? And why would they put the bulk brown in it?


A) For tiny pickups
B) to show that it _can _be used with sand, as opposed to a salt only capable spreader


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> A) For tiny pickups
> B) to show that it _can _be used with sand, as opposed to a salt only capable spreader


C) utvs???


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

m_ice said:


> C) utvs???


They make a 1/3 yard for that


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

m_ice said:


> C) utvs???


D) Heavy half tons...


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> They make a 1/3 yard for that


So the 1/3 yd is for utvs and the .35 yd is for trucks???


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> D) Heavy half tons...


E) pickups with short boxes.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

m_ice said:


> So the 1/3 yd is for utvs and the .35 yd is for trucks???


Oh boy Illernoiz math... *.7yd vs .33333333333333 repeating yards....*


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

cwren2472 said:


> They make a 1/3 yard for that


The one mark linked to was the .7 yd


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Oh boy Illernoiz math... *.7yd vs .33333333333333 repeating yards....*


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Luther said:


> Why would they even make something like that? And why would they put the bulk brown in it?


So guys can plow Walmart's with a short bed CC 1/2 ton or Tacoma


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> So guys can plow Walmart's with a short bed CC 1/2 ton or Tacoma


But they own an excavator to load it?


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Luther said:


> Why would they even make something like that?


They were probably reading @TOMHIII 's thread !


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> But they own an excavator to load it?


Well yeah they are professionals........professionally speaking.....


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Boy...cant wait to prewet the sand at the spinner though thats gonna be a game changer...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> Boy...cant wait to prewet the sand at the spinner though thats gonna be a game changer...


Will be for the guys that use pool salt.Thumbs Up


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