# 5 acre site - Looking for advice (with PIC)



## Workaholic (Apr 20, 2005)

Site is a 5 acre site I am bidding. The bid is due Monday.

Til now I havent done anything with this much open space. I do large factories with multiple big lots but this would be my first wide open push.

I am looking for advice on equipment. I know backhoe or loader would be ideal but would a large skidsteer do? I wouldnt have a use for backhoe or loader during summer months but the addition of a skidsteer would be nice.

Also, what do you guys reccomend.. pusher, blade, etc.

If I can get away with a good used setup under 20k I wouldnt have to finance. (15k for machine & 5k for blade/box)

Also, they said they were not going to be picky with salt.. they said a light salting, heavier at entrances and around buildings would be fine. does anyone know approx salt usage on 5 acres?

As far as the bid goes. I am only bidding against 1 other company so prices probably wont be driven down to far. I am only giving them the option of 3 year term as I will be investing in site specific equipment. I am not hurting for contracts but would be a nice one to have. They only want seasonal price.

Looking for any input on any aspect. salt usage, equipment, pusher, etc. share some experience with me!!!

Thanks for the help guys.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

nice easy lot. 1 loader w 14-16 pusher and a skid with 8-10 pusher. 3000 lbs salt per application. you need to figure your avg snowfall and events in your area. HIH as i'm on my phone and cant type alot. good luck!


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## Workaholic (Apr 20, 2005)

Thanks

What size loader do you need for 14' pusher? 
Also would 1 1/2 ton salt be a light, average or heavy salting?


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

generally speaking 6-800 per application.....this translates to 20 lbs per 100 sf (good formula to go on) some apps will be more and some less..... my loader is a 740. its a 130 hp, 24000 lbs machine... this machine pushes my 14' arctic section just fine (its heavier then a standard rubber edge pusher) HIH


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

we would use a loader 14-16 ft and a BIG dump truck with 10 ft plow to save the money the skid would cost and you're gonna need the dump to salt it anyway. 3000lbsalt would be average. 600lbs/acre should be normal.


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## Workaholic (Apr 20, 2005)

Thanks again for the help guys,

I have spotted a few older loader-pusher combos that I think would be adequate for this lot. their was a 1975' 544 with 12' protech for 16k . and a few others in that ballbark. I notice alot of guys around here just buy and sell older good running loaders as their contracts come and go. this isnt a highend facility either like an automotive plant. Plus if i had troubles I know enough people with equipment to help me out. 

How well do these pushers scrape down to the pavement? What is better steel edge or rubber? We are talking about very old asphalt in rough condition.

We have very mild winters, 8-12 push/salts and another 15 salt only events so I dont want to invest alot. Last year we had 6 pushes! ALL WINTER! 

I have duramax 3/4ton with snowex 8500 so I can do 3000lbs in one trip. All my other lots only take 3-4000lbs of salt total so I would just be making 2 trips. 


Can you guys shoot push only prices out? I am coming up with $13-1600.. so about $2000 w/salt


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## motoxguy (Oct 17, 2010)

Have a lot pretty similar to this and we use a skidsteer with a 8ft pusher then a big dump with a 12 plow and can handle it pretty easy with that equipment, unless we get a big dump of 8" plus of the wet heavy snow we will send another truck or a loader there to help for a little bit. We also use on ave. 3000lbs of salt


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

I won't comment on price as its a regional thing.. just make sure you take in aco**** all your costs and add your profit margin in. in my area loaders with pushers go for 100-150 ph. if you can get a idea on a per hour rate in your area im sure you can figure it out. I love the arctic sectional but they are pricey. But they pay for themselves in salt savings. I don't know how they'd do on rough pavement but on good pavement they work very well.


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## Workaholic (Apr 20, 2005)

Mick76;1128109 said:


> I won't comment on price as its a regional thing.. just make sure you take in aco**** all your costs and add your profit margin in. in my area loaders with pushers go for 100-150 ph. if you can get a idea on a per hour rate in your area im sure you can figure it out. I love the arctic sectional but they are pricey. But they pay for themselves in salt savings. I don't know how they'd do on rough pavement but on good pavement they work very well.


What does a 12-14 sectional go for?$? or do I even want to know?


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

In my market you'd get laughed at. @ 5 acres your talking 5 truck hrs or there about + 1.5 ton of salt. Ball park here between $ 400-800/per push with salt.


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## Workaholic (Apr 20, 2005)

RLM;1128203 said:


> In my market you'd get laughed at. @ 5 acres your talking 5 truck hrs or there about + 1.5 ton of salt. Ball park here between $ 400-800/per push with salt.


In my market I get $800 to push a 2 acre church, NO SALT.. But of course we dont get the opportunity very often.
Thats basing it off of 8500.00 contract price (no salt)
2008 8 pushes, 2009 12 pushes, 2010 6 pushes


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## Workaholic (Apr 20, 2005)

would a bobcat 873 (76hp) w/8' pusher be adequet with help of pickup trucks?

We never get more than 5" and if we did the skidsteer would start to clear at 2" anyway so it wouldn need to push much. 

If im going to spend money on equip I just want something I'll use in the summer.

Plus I can float a bobcat to my other lots if i needed to move snow around or push smaller lots.


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

A bobcat would work fine, I would never purchase a loader for this single site. If you don't have other work for it there is no need for it on this site.

Put a pickup w/ a v-plow and wings or a expandable plow along with either a second truck or a bobcat and you'll knock that site out in 2-3 hours depending on snow fall.

Looks like there is plenty of room to push the snow and it is all open long pushes. 

Have fun!


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## motoxguy (Oct 17, 2010)

a friend of mine had just bought 2 sectionals that i believe are either 12 or 14 ft. and they ran him 7200 a peice


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

thats why i wont comment on price as its a regional thing. what u can get at one place u cant get at another. motos right somewhere in the 7k range. i disagree with just buying a loader for snow only for this site. i only use my loader for snow and it clears a lot of snow in little time. buying one is cheaper then renting one. if you get a 3 year deal i think it would be worth it (imo).if u never get more then 5" at any one time and would use the bobcat to push with the event you should be ok with the help of a truck. i understand where your coming from in terms of buying a skid. their handy little machines to have and i occcationaly do use mine in the summer.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Workaholic;1128218 said:


> In my market I get $800 to push a 2 acre church, NO SALT.. But of course we dont get the opportunity very often.
> Thats basing it off of 8500.00 contract price (no salt)
> 2008 8 pushes, 2009 12 pushes, 2010 6 pushes


Ontario is a pretty big area to service. Do you have a plane?


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## Workaholic (Apr 20, 2005)

JD Dave;1128578 said:


> Ontario is a pretty big area to service. Do you have a plane?


2 actually, with 13.5' aerial V blades.


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## EdNewman (Jan 27, 2004)

$8-10k contract price around here. A loader and a skid would be best, you could do it with trucks if they are 9' with wings, but pusher boxes will be better.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Workaholic;1128747 said:


> 2 actually, with 13.5' aerial V blades.


Nice I'm sure they work very well. Everyone is saying a skid and loader but the problem is no one is going to pay for that on a 5 acre site of this sort. Unless you have lots of work nearby for them to do after. A loader ot tractor would be my first choice and a skid will do the job if need be. No need for both with the amount of snow on avg we get here.


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## EdNewman (Jan 27, 2004)

Also, you need to understand the time contraints for the plowing. If the company needs to be running 24/7 or if they shutdown everytime it snows. Might be ok with just one skid loader if you have time on your side. The truck with salt and a plow can pop in every once in a while and help out. It will just take a lot longer to clear.


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## wizardsr (Aug 8, 2006)

Workaholic;1128084 said:


> this isnt a highend facility either


That's pretty apparent given the fact it's the end of November and they haven't lined up a snow contractor yet.


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## motoxguy (Oct 17, 2010)

Even if this place isn't a high end facility i would never do a seasonal contract for 8k to 10k on something that size because you will still have alot of man hours as well as fuel and insurance for it and alot of material in salt which you know what your paying for a ton, and once you add all the numbers up your profit margin is quite slim and i doubt you enjoy getting out of bed for pennies.


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## EdNewman (Jan 27, 2004)

Whether it is profitable or not depends on a number of factors. Most importantly, where it is and how much snow you get. As I stated, that is what we get around here. Our average annual snowfall is only 2 feet. If it is somewhere that gets 4 feet or 8 feet it would obviously be much more.


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## lawnproslawncar (Dec 9, 2007)

A new KAGE plow will run you $6700 and S-250 Bobcat would handle it no problem! That is what I would suggest.


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## Workaholic (Apr 20, 2005)

I cant see anyone making profit at 8-10k with salt. in any market. Not unless you are talking 8-10k per month. My bid is near done and will end up in the 25-30k range. leaning toward good used 873 bobcat with 9 foot V blade. plus truck when needed.
Only offering them a 3 yr term.


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## motoxguy (Oct 17, 2010)

If you do end up with the contract or going in to meet with the facilities manager i would still shoot it as a 1 year deal just to make sure you are making money and then at the end of the season if you are happy with your profit margins as well as them being happy with the performance of your company i would then offer a 3 yr. deal. i have done this in the past and can help to save your own ass as well and the company get to be familiar with who you are and the work you do.


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## motoxguy (Oct 17, 2010)

leaning toward good used 873 bobcat with 9 foot V blade. plus truck when needed. - Workaholic 

like i had said earlier i have several lots that are at this size and you are not going to get away with just using a 9ft vplow with a skidsteer. We always use a skidsteer with a 8ft pusher as well as a big dump with a 12ft blade and at times we still have to bring in another truck or a loader for an hr. to help out when we get a bigger dump of snow.


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## EdNewman (Jan 27, 2004)

You guys are in Ontario, its a very different world. Lets look at the numbers down here. This 5 acre site looks like 3-4 acres of plowable surface. An average year for us is 22.7" of snow in 4 events and 2 salt-only runs. I would put a Dually with a 9' plow and wings and my Bobcat with a 10' pusher. For a 6-12" storm, this would take 4 hours tops to clear. That's 16 hours x 2 vehicles = 32 hours. Add in an hour for each salt-only and you have 34 hours. At a cost basis of $100 per vehicle per hour thats $3400 plus cost for salt. Sound profitable to me. As far as Ontario, I can't speak for costs or snowfall up there.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

In ontario (GTA area) you can usually count on about 12-15 pushes and 35 total salting events including salting after plowing. This is generally for a top line service. If its a lower service property reduce the work load accordingly.


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