# Insane Pricing........ I've seen low prices, but c'mon now.



## OsU1997

Is this becoming more and more common? Where a contractor would bid over 500,000 sq ft of plowing on numerous lots spread over 12 miles coupled with almost an acre of sidewalks for close to $30 an acre to plow. I've been a part of this game for 20 years now. So, I've seen the good and bad. But the bid pricing that I'm running into is just ugly. Our pricing has been successful on commercial/residential bids for the entire time I've done this. But, we're getting cut by between 30% -50% across the board. If this is the way that it's going to go in our area, there may be some real nice Boss and SnowEx equipment for sale next year. Ok, I'm done with the rant. I'm just curious As to what everyone else is seeing this season.


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## Dogplow Dodge

OsU1997;1668000 said:


> I...Ok, I'm done with the rant. I'm just curious As to what everyone else is seeing this season.


You obviously don't spend a lot of time on this forum, as if you did, you'd find multiple threads with the same theme. 

IOW, no it's not just you..... stop being so selfish thinning it can only happen to the one and only you.....

:laughing:


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## OsU1997

Yeah, sorry for not living in here. I never said it was only happening to me. In fact it's every where in our area. Also, for you to call me selfish is completely out of line. You don't know me, so don't pretend to. This is a big reason why I don't spend anytime here, everyone is quick to judge to make themselves feel better. Best of luck to you....


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## dieselss

Easy killer. Dog was just joking saying your wrong if you think low ballers are only happening to you. Lighten up alittle


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## TJS

This lowballing is happening everywhere. I plowed a small business parking lot for a while now. PITA, buildings on each side of the main enterance, cars always in the way, dumpsters in the way. Got a 100.00 base and tiered pricing from there. He calls me this year and told me someone can do it for 45.00. Not even worth warming up my truck for that.


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## OsU1997

That's where I'm at with the current pricing. I can add more landscape crews and sell more work in the summer and forget about the snow. My wife said today, lets go on vacation in the winter and let the scabs race to the bottom. As it stands now, I can't even cover basic costs on these bids.


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## Mark Oomkes

Welcome to late 80's\early 90's pricing all over again.

We can thank NSP's and a certain snow "god" from Erie for turning a service into a commodity.


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## Buswell Forest

$30 an acre....When they called looking for subs, I'd tell them "$35 per acre!"...


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## Dogplow Dodge

dieselss;1668017 said:


> Easy killer.  Dog was just joking saying your wrong if you think low ballers are only happening to you. Lighten up alittle


Yeah.... what he said.

The OP is Threatening to close shop because of low ballers, and that's what folks have been talking about a lot here. OMG, I tried to lighten up the situation... I'm a bad man ! Forgive me for you being so sensitive.


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## OsU1997

No kidding. I'm not worried about it. We're just going to keep providing top notch reliable service for a decent price and stick to the business model. Unfortunetly, with pricing models like everyone is seeing the only ones that win are the property owners. Maybe I should start buying real estate. Hmmmm.........


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## maxwellp

I run into this all the time here in WI. I started bidding high 4 years ago. Sell them on service. "Would you like it done today or a few days after it stops snowing?" If they go with the low ball guy, they will notice who is taken care of and who is not. Some call and sign up for the next year after having really bad service from the low ball guy. 
Don't be that guy. BID HIGH and stay there.


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## MSsnowplowing

TJS;1668018 said:


> This lowballing is happening everywhere. I plowed a small business parking lot for a while now. PITA, buildings on each side of the main enterance, cars always in the way, dumpsters in the way. Got a 100.00 base and tiered pricing from there. He calls me this year and told me someone can do it for 45.00. Not even worth warming up my truck for that.


Sounds like almost every single gas station around here.

I gave up bidding on them because of that.


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## jrs.landscaping

OsU1997;1668000 said:


> But, we're getting cut by between 30% -50% across the board.


We're getting outbid by 40 - 70% on bids. The best was a 1.75 acre lot that was bid for $125 *PER STORM *I wonder how they did during the blizzard last year


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## horizon jay

I was bidding $75 an acre and got asked are you serious? UM yes thats why I said it. I have said GOod Luck to alot of people this year... Good Luck!


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## rjigto4oje

That's what happens when you let crackheads out of jail and we leave our borders open. To anyone and no I'm not a racist I don't even like myself


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## OsU1997

This year has been a crazy year already and it isn't even Thanksgiving yet. We've been getting cut badly on our quotes, but yet we received a call from a google search for a commercial property. I bid it higher than usual and got the contract on the spot. It just makes you wonder about how and why some things happen. There may still be hope in this trade.


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## Rc2505

I just got asked to plow a 12 + acre lot with over 1000 foot pushes for 39 dollars an acre, and 92 dollars per ton for salt. I said good luck on that by the way.


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## maxwellp

I don't price by the acre but this got me thinking. Most of what I plow are upscale country houses but I do have some small lots. The largest being just under 1/2 acre or 21,000 sq feet. I get $76 to plow this. So at that rate I am at $162 an acre. 

I would stay home for $30 - $40 an acre, just saying.


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## Chineau

In any business there are people at the bottom end of the scale that is how they operate, don't worry about them bid properties with your numbers to run your business. Then do what you say you are going to do and do it to the best of your ability. You will gain customers that will never leave you, some people deserve the mart,mart way i do not want them send them to low ballers and the hacks. Good luck.


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## CT-TILEMAN

I plow by the hour on commercial............$125/hour plus salting.

CT must be a better state to plow in that other areas.

Good Luck to all this season


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## Buswell Forest

CT-TILEMAN;1672343 said:


> I plow by the hour on commercial............$125/hour plus salting.
> 
> CT must be a better state to plow in that other areas.
> 
> Good Luck to all this season


What size blade for $120 per hour?

Myself, I would want $120 as a minimum for my F250 and 9'6" V plow...
Heck, I make more than that doing my accounts per push.


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## CT-TILEMAN

Fisher XV-8.5 and we have a minimum of 4 hours on one lot regardless of whether we are there less for a smaller storm.

They have to keep the scales open and the loading dock running so we get paid to babysit the lot so they do not lose any incoming/outgoing trucks.

Two trucks plus a Backhoe..........they don't care


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## jrs.landscaping

Buswell Forest;1672455 said:


> What size blade for $120 per hour?
> 
> Myself, I would want $120 as a minimum for my F250 and 9'6" V plow...
> Heck, I make more than that doing my accounts per push.


You should buy a three yard loader........ I bet a guy like you could get 400 an hour


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## Buswell Forest

jrs.landscaping;1672463 said:


> You should buy a three yard loader........ I bet a guy like you could get 400 an hour


Why would I buy a 3 yard loader?

All I need, according to your specs, is 3 small apartment buildings @ $45,000 per year. I can knock those out with a Tacoma and a plastic plow from Northern Tool.


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## Buswell Forest

CT-TILEMAN;1672459 said:


> Fisher XV-8.5 and we have a minimum of 4 hours on one lot regardless of whether we are there less for a smaller storm.
> 
> They have to keep the scales open and the loading dock running so we get paid to babysit the lot so they do not lose any incoming/outgoing trucks.
> 
> Two trucks plus a Backhoe..........they don't care


Sounds like the kind of account to have!Thumbs Up


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## jrs.landscaping

Buswell Forest;1672579 said:


> Why would I buy a 3 yard loader?
> 
> All I need, according to your specs, is 3 small apartment buildings @ $45,000 per year. I can knock those out with a Tacoma and a plastic plow from Northern Tool.


That's pretty much the extent of your equipment list anyway.......


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## Buswell Forest




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## jrs.landscaping

Well played, on average how many hours do you plow per season?


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## woodchuck2

I do a few commercial lots but they are small, all about 1/2 an acre. I never gave it a thought charging by the acre but it makes sense. $35-$50 an acre???? Good luck!!! Dont even waste my time with the phone call for that. If i am not going to make money then i would rather sit home not making it instead of pounding my equipment in the ground only to break even and make no money. For the 1/2 acre lots i do they are all $75 each, 2" trigger and same money again for the salting when finished. Customers are very happy, 3rd yr now with them and they have all stated that i will have these accounts until i either change the costs which can be negotiated or if i flat out stop the business. 

How can someone justify $35-$50 an acre? I charge a $30 minimum for any driveway. So lets say an average driveway is 206' long and 40' or so wide, big drive way really and of course an acre is 206'X206'. That would normally be 5 driveways so realistically an acre should be $175-$250 an acre so even myself at $75 for 1/2 acre is cheap and i know for a fact i undercut one particular contractor who had two of my accounts by more than 100% so i am guessing this must be how he is estimating his contracts. Am i making money, yes but no where near the profit the last guy was. Time wise, i can clear the lots, do a bit of shoveling at the one and salt everything in under an hour for a total of $300 before expenses.


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## Buswell Forest

jrs.landscaping;1672632 said:


> Well played, on average how many hours do you plow per season?


Last year, about 7 hours per round of pushes on paying accounts. As for a total for the year, no idea.
I had 10 accounts last year, and from january 3rd to the end of the season, I made 10k.
This year, I have 36 accounts. Luckily, all new accounts are within 3 miles of home, and only 6 live here year round. Those 6 are within 2 miles.
I figure to be out 20 hours per round of pushes. I will do the priority accounts the first day, and the weekenders the second. I charge one rate per push up to 12 inches, meaning I come when it stops snowing up to 12. The exception being my 3 commercials which get done every 4 to 6. I charge all my residentials double after 12, and again every 6 after. This pricing structure gives them the feeling they got a good deal for most storms, and gives me a fair wage for the larger storms.
I tell all of my accounts that I am on call 24/7, but I charge my rate every time I drop the plow.


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## jrs.landscaping

Buswell Forest;1672763 said:


> Last year, about 7 hours per round of pushes on paying accounts. As for a total for the year, no idea.
> I had 10 accounts last year, and from january 3rd to the end of the season, I made 10k.
> This year, I have 36 accounts. Luckily, all new accounts are within 3 miles of home, and only 6 live here year round. Those 6 are within 2 miles.
> I figure to be out 20 hours per round of pushes. I will do the priority accounts the first day, and the weekenders the second. I charge one rate per push up to 12 inches, meaning I come when it stops snowing up to 12. The exception being my 3 commercials which get done every 4 to 6. I charge all my residentials double after 12, and again every 6 after. This pricing structure gives them the feeling they got a good deal for most storms, and gives me a fair wage for the larger storms.
> I tell all of my accounts that I am on call 24/7, but I charge my rate every time I drop the plow.


That's great you quadrupled your customer base 

Hopefully for you we have a winter like last year and you'll probably make 50k for the winter payup


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## camerakb

In cleveland $30 an acre is a fair price.... sort of kidding, prices here are shot; as far as profit goes.


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## mtnzone

Buswell Forest;1672763 said:


> Last year, about 7 hours per round of pushes on paying accounts. As for a total for the year, no idea.
> I had 10 accounts last year, and from january 3rd to the end of the season, I made 10k.
> This year, I have 36 accounts. Luckily, all new accounts are within 3 miles of home, and only 6 live here year round. Those 6 are within 2 miles.
> I figure to be out 20 hours per round of pushes. I will do the priority accounts the first day, and the weekenders the second. I charge one rate per push up to 12 inches, meaning I come when it stops snowing up to 12. The exception being my 3 commercials which get done every 4 to 6. I charge all my residentials double after 12, and again every 6 after. This pricing structure gives them the feeling they got a good deal for most storms, and gives me a fair wage for the larger storms.
> I tell all of my accounts that I am on call 24/7, but I charge my rate every time I drop the plow.


sorry to interject here. but your saying lets say on a residential driveway that you charge $30 per push ..?? so if you go to that clients house to "open up' her driveway that is $30? and when you go or if you go back to clean up it is another $30??


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## Buswell Forest

mtnzone;1680023 said:


> sorry to interject here. but your saying lets say on a residential driveway that you charge $30 per push ..?? so if you go to that clients house to "open up' her driveway that is $30? and when you go or if you go back to clean up it is another $30??


Yes, except I plow it all. I want to give the full service for the full price.
Basiclly, it's tiered pricing, or if you like, per amount. After 12" I feel a $30 driveway is worth $60, and it's worth $90 after 18". Every 6" after 12" is another push. Since most storms are under 12", and I will push it once at the end up to 12", I think it's fair. All my customers agreed without hesitation.
One did balk a bit, but I asked them what they would want to get paid to shovel a 4' wide by 30' long walkway with 6" of snow on it....When they said "x", I asked them "OK, what about if there's 24" of snow? Same money?" They got it right away.


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## Buswell Forest

jrs.landscaping;1672770 said:


> That's great you quadrupled your customer base
> 
> Hopefully for you we have a winter like last year and you'll probably make 50k for the winter payup


Made $490 in 3-1/2 hours last evening with 3" of snow to push...So I am off to a good start!


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## jrs.landscaping

Buswell Forest;1680265 said:


> Made $490 in 3-1/2 hours last evening with 3" of snow to push...So I am off to a good start!


Nice the one inch we had was more of a headache than anything


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## thelettuceman

OsU1997>>> 
1>Don't get upset about lowballing
2>Happens in every industry
3>Don't get caught up in a reverse auction.
4>Lowballers put themselves out of business
5>New lowballers take their place
6>You've been in business for 20 years / You know what works / Stick to it


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## rcn971

I don't think you could get the neighborhood kids to shovel your driveway for $30 around here....lol.


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## kg26

I hear what everyone is saying, just follow me here... if your company offers fall cleanups what do you get for an acre? I'd like to see how far in to the seasons the shortages go.


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## doogy65501

250.00 per acre for Verizon wireless Towers 2 acres each I have 6 of them make 3000.00 per snow fall before operating expense


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## maxwellp

doogy65501;1680852 said:


> 250.00 per acre for Verizon wireless Towers 2 acres each I have 6 of them make 3000.00 per snow fall before operating expense


I would like that!!!!!!!!!


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## DieselSlug

On one of my resi plow jobs an owner got a letter from a local plowing company stating that they would plow his drive for $10 less than I would. Needless to say, lost that customer...


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## JD Dave

doogy65501;1680852 said:


> 250.00 per acre for Verizon wireless Towers 2 acres each I have 6 of them make 3000.00 per snow fall before operating expense


And you post it on a open forum for everyone to read. If your making good money it's best to keep it to yourself. Jmo


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## scottL

$35 an acre. You can do a driveway with shovel in less time for the same money 

How about the Nationals offering up Target stores for 7-12k all included with salt? That price barely covers the cost of the salting. I guess that's why the Targets where not done by morning opening.

Low ballers are desperate, ignorant, evil. They could get more by subcontracting with less headache. But then you know how the owners of companies are just rolling in the doug - 

You have to know when to say good luck - I always ask if they understand what they will be getting before I tell them ciao. I love the stories.


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## WILLD420

There will always be some guy out there with a broke down rig that will work for nothing until one day he wakes up and realizes that he spends more in parts and gas than he makes. Once he figures that out, the next guy that is still learning takes the contract and does the same thing over again.

Cheapskates will always try to save a penny by spending a dollar. That is the 80's american way of thinking, gut the company and leave it in ruin, so you can make yourself look good for the next big job.

People all over the country are starting to wake up to the idea that it's quality and customer service that really matter. It just takes time for people to come around after they hire junk workers and figure out that the costs in the long run are actually higher than having someone do the job right.

I just won a contract because the last guy was a low-baller who showed up when he ran out of whiskey and got sober enough to be able to remember how to make it to the jobsite. I plowed a road for free, since I had to drive up and look at it anyway. Nobody had ever done that in the 20 years this place has existed. So what if it cost me $4 in gas and 35 minutes of my day? I made $200 the first time the snow flew, and they told me they didn't care if I was johnny on the spot, as long as I promised to do as good of a job while being paid, as I did for free the day I drove up and looked at the place.


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## Burkartsplow

I had a owner of a few commercial properties call and ask for pricing. He told me he was not happy with his service last year and they showed up at 9 or 10 am to plow the lot when the places opened at 6 to 7am. I took a look at the lots and delivered a per service pricing to him and also a seasonal. He calls me back later that day and tells me I was 50 to 60% higher then what he was paying last year. I told him that is our pricing and that we are very reliable and will have his lot open before employees get to work. He was given our number from a management company that we have been working with for 7 years and who we use as a reference with potential new clients, which that tells me we are doing a good job. He told me I should change up my pricing to stay competitive for the area and that I was pricing myself out of a lot of work. I bit my tongue and said thanks for the opportunity to earn your business but I can't lower my pricing and that he should keep looking for another company to service his sites. I think he hired the same company as I drove past one site this week after our first storm of 3 inches which stopped at 11pm the night before and the lot was still not plowed at 10am. What is going to happen when it starts snowing at 4am? Im sure we all have a similar story.


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