# Slip & Fall on my acct today!!!



## Sno4U (Dec 30, 2003)

Today was just not my day. Got call from a plowing/salting client that he had 2 slip & falls this morning out in the parking lot.
What happened is the business in front of my clients rear parking area piled up snow in the back corner of their property(using a loader), well w/ yesterdays thaw, water ran under the chain link fence and onto my clients property. Of course we had freezing temps overnite and when employees came in this morning (early AM) it was ice.
Who's liability would this be?
The front businesses b/c their runoff came onto my clients prop. and created a hazardous situation?
Or: Mine b/c I do the salting. I mean WTF am I supposed to sit on all of my props. looking for runoff every nite???


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Interesting.
If you consider a home owner who gets flooded from their neighbors property ... It would actually be the neighbors problem and/or the village and county which has departments which handle this.

If it was reasonable to assume you knew that this could happen then maybe should should have salted. On the other hand the property owner should always be aware of their property as they are the front line. Once they called you you went out to salt thus addressing it upon notice. Otherwise, I think most will take is as an act of nature.

Of course you'll always get the sell outs will to settle anything and screw everyone crowd. Double check your contract.


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## Sno4U (Dec 30, 2003)

Yes, I was notified and asked if I could salt the lot by a certain time in the afternoon and if I could do a "heavy" application. Which I did.
I would say it would have been difficult to foresee the issue. We had the acct. last year and this didn't happen but, this is the 1st time they piled all the snow up in that corner.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Say nothing to anybody. Write down everything you can remember about what you did and when. Write down who contacted you and when. Get names and statements of everybody involved. Contact your insurance agent. Consult/hire YOUR OWN lawyer (do not rely on the insurance co lawyer to look out for your interests). The outcome will depend largely on your state laws. Every state is different. Here, the legal premise is: This is Maine; It snows in Maine; Snow is slick. Even legally, businesses have no obligation to clear sidewalks until after the snow stops. People are expected to use reasonable caution to avoid dangerous situations.


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

Tell them to wear cleats on their shoes/boots, then they won't fall on slippery ice! 
You can buy these to fit over any size boot.


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## Milwaukee (Dec 28, 2007)

Then why I fall at school's park lot but not report to anyone but it pretty bad fall. My back do still ache from this morning accident

Why many people do this it stupid. They can't be sure that they would never fall on ice.


I have notice water from snowpile that I make pile have water then it frozen then fun thing my neighborhood get his car to store to get food so his car spin on ice so he end put salt in there well salt was actual from kitchen but it do good job deice then 10 min he finally out it.


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## yamaguy (Aug 26, 2007)

Mick;520399 said:


> Say nothing to anybody. Write down everything you can remember about what you did and when. Write down who contacted you and when. Get names and statements of everybody involved. Contact your insurance agent. Consult/hire YOUR OWN lawyer (do not rely on the insurance co lawyer to look out for your interests). The outcome will depend largely on your state laws. Every state is different. Here, the legal premise is: This is Maine; It snows in Maine; Snow is slick. Even legally, businesses have no obligation to clear sidewalks until after the snow stops. People are expected to use reasonable caution to avoid dangerous situations.


It sounds like you would be saying quite a bit to alot of people.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

yamaguy;520433 said:


> It sounds like you would be saying quite a bit to alot of people.


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## yamaguy (Aug 26, 2007)

Mick;520399 said:


> Say nothing to anybody. Write down everything you can remember about what you did and when. Write down who contacted you and when. Get names and statements of everybody involved. Contact your insurance agent. Consult/hire YOUR OWN lawyer (do not rely on the insurance co lawyer to look out for your interests). The outcome will depend largely on your state laws. Every state is different. Here, the legal premise is: This is Maine; It snows in Maine; Snow is slick. Even legally, businesses have no obligation to clear sidewalks until after the snow stops. People are expected to use reasonable caution to avoid dangerous situations.





Mick;520445 said:


>


Maybe this will help.


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

the ice on youre side of the fence....we'll that one is a tuugh-ee

i would guess that it is still youre problem 'cause it is still natural drainage. wether it be rain or snow you are still down hill and need to properly drain youre property, i deal with this problem almost everyday in the excavation side of thing's, i have clients call wanting me to deal with the ajoining farm's teraces or run-off

i had a farm i owned and the teraces from the other farm was cutting ruts in my farm......so i took the ol' terex and made a burm and viola they had themselves a nice little pond  and i got sued for lost cropland.......well by the time it was over the judge ruled in my favor and the other guy even had to pay for my attorny fee's ..how cool is that


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## LTL (Jan 13, 2008)

Someone needs to tell them that ice is slippery and if you don't want to fall don't walk on it, or at least learn how to. Everyone wants a reason to sue.


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## CARDOCTOR (Nov 29, 2002)

take pics before the evidence melts away . how many days has it been since the last time you salted 


JR


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

What does your contract say about your liability. Our's states we are responsible for monitoring surface conditions for 24 hours after the snow stops. It then becomes the responsibility of the owner.


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## Plowin in VT (Dec 7, 2007)

basher;520613 said:


> What does your contract say about your liability. Our's states we are responsible for monitoring surface conditions for 24 hours after the snow stops. It then becomes the responsibility of the owner.


I like that! I'm going to have to put that in next year's contracts!!!


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## AbsoluteH&L (Jan 5, 2006)

Mick;520399 said:


> ... Every state is different. Here, the legal premise is: This is Maine; It snows in Maine; Snow is slick...People are expected to use reasonable caution to avoid dangerous situations.





MnDLawn;520502 said:


> Someone needs to tell them that ice is slippery and if you don't want to fall don't walk on it, or at least learn how to. Everyone wants a reason to sue.


I have to agree, then again I don't do that much commercial. But here it is a bit of a given, snow and ice are slippery, Duh. Damb sue happy PITA.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

It's your problem, unfortunately. This is the reason we do site checks 7 days a week. We salt runoff and puddles and we keep detailed records. It sucks but we have to do it or we won't be able to afford insurance. Every job we have get's a site check every morning before 6 am.


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

JD Dave;520757 said:


> It's your problem, unfortunately. This is the reason we do site checks 7 days a week. We salt runoff and puddles and we keep detailed records. It sucks but we have to do it or we won't be able to afford insurance. Every job we have get's a site check every morning before 6 am.


Really?

lol


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## Oasis (Oct 28, 2007)

I know its a pain in the a$$ but ... SITE CHECKS SITE CHECKS SITE CHECKS......

Its actually not that bad though... always seems to present extra oppertunities for salting applications.


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## treeman06 (Sep 26, 2006)

i ahve been in the process of upgrading my business insurance and this is something that we went over, my agent said as long as your insurance is good, you are upfront with the insurance company, they will stand behind you on slip and fall claims.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

If you go to do a site check, and theres ice, do you call the manager/owner and say that your salting and he has to pay for it? It would make sense to do this since if someone slips its your problem. 

This whole thing really doesn't make sense to me. When you plow and salt someones parking lot, you automatically take on all the responsibility of a slip and fall? and remove all responsibilty of monitoring ice conditions off the property owner? I know this is beating a dead horse around here, but it really seems that it should be the property owners fault. Lets say for example I have a landscaper put in a paver plaza, a month later someone trips on a paver slightly sticking up and tries to sue, would they be able to sue the guy who installed it or us? I would think us. 

Is there any difference in selling snow and ice management services or snow plowing and salting spreading services? I would think that if you have to do site checks everyday the customer would pay very good for it. Or is this just part of the business? I do site checks at our own properties everyday, but thats because I'm there everyday and we own it.


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## Oasis (Oct 28, 2007)

Isnt it a matter of the service you are selling. If you are striclty selling a snow plowing service and no de icing that really you arent/shouldnt be responsible for slippery conditions. If however, you are selling de icing services.... you are responsible for DE ICING. By definition if someone slips and falls on ice that you should have DE ICED..... then why shouldnt it be your responisbility. The only exception is if you have taken all possible precautions, done timely site checks and yet someone has managed to find the one patch of ice that has developed in 15 minutes after you have left. In that case its up to the judge to decide if you were negligent or not.


JMO


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

"Anybody can be sued at any time for anything." The plaintiff's lawyer will usually name everyone even remotely involved. Then each one can ask to be dismissed from the suit. It'll then be up to the judge to decide if each should be included in the lawsuit. This is how the court system winds up with the ridiculous lawsuits you sometimes hear about. Unfortunately, common sense sometimes has nothing to do with it.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

merrimacmill;521442 said:


> If you go to do a site check, and theres ice, do you call the manager/owner and say that your salting and he has to pay for it? It would make sense to do this since if someone slips its your problem.
> 
> Why do a site check if you're not going to call and make some money if work needs done?
> 
> ...


If you paid someone to monitor it that might help lower your personal liability.

Contracts don't stop suits, they win them.


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## Sno4U (Dec 30, 2003)

Well, its been 4 days now and I haven't heard anything from this client. When he called and informed me of the incident he did not say if the person was actually injured. I have a feeling they where not. But he was concerned w/ the condition of the lot and wanted to head off anymore S& F's.
I would point out that the incident was a Monday morning and I'm sure these employees where just running to get into work bright & early b/c they love their jobs soooo much!!
I have been monitoring the run off condition almost daily since.
I guess I can use it as a learning experience at this point.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Sno4U;523275 said:


> Well, its been 4 days now and I haven't heard anything from this client. When he called and informed me of the incident he did not say if the person was actually injured. I have a feeling they where not. But he was concerned w/ the condition of the lot and wanted to head off anymore S& F's.
> I would point out that the incident was a Monday morning and I'm sure these employees where just running to get into work bright & early b/c they love their jobs soooo much!!
> I have been monitoring the run off condition almost daily since.
> I guess I can use it as a learning experience at this point.


It's workmen's comp, if it's an employee going to work. It is here anyway.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Keep any records you have related to the incident. I've heard of suits being filed even two years after the incident. The more time goes by, the better for them. Memories fade. It becomes more difficult to form a defense.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Mick;523473 said:


> Keep any records you have related to the incident. I've heard of suits being filed even two years after the incident. The more time goes by, the better for them. Memories fade. It becomes more difficult to form a defense.


They love to wait until the week before the filing period is due to close. Makes it next to imposable to file a counter suit.


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## Plowin in VT (Dec 7, 2007)

Maybe the person that fell is someone like me.

A couple of years ago I took a bad fall at work. Started getting out of my truck, put 1 foot down on 3+" of snow and that foot shot out from under me. Hit my head on the rocker of my GMC 3500 (giving me a slight concussion), and sprained my wrist. I was pissed beyond belief, but I never once thought about suing the snow plow company even though they do/did a terrible job. 

Not everyone out there is "sue happy", some people are just natural klutzes who feel as though it's their own damn fault for getting out of bed in the morning, and know that sh** happens.


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## mulcahy mowing (Jan 16, 2006)

Plowin in VT;523841 said:


> Not everyone out there is "sue happy", some people are just natural klutzes who feel as though it's their own damn fault for getting out of bed in the morning, and know that sh** happens.


I hear that earlier this year I stepped out of my truck while bringing my father lunch to his office. The second my foot hit the ground so did the rest of me into a puddle with ice underneath. the lunch was ruined and I was pissed didn't sew or anything, although my fathers landlord watched the whole thing and now they have a company that knows what they're doing on the job. I came pretty close to splitting my head open.


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## Sno4U (Dec 30, 2003)

I guess my best defense, and I already knew this, is records. Lot condition, time of app. amount of app. etc, etc.
We already do most of this for billing purposes anyhow.
Its amazing the liability we as business operators open ourselves up to by simply agreeing to apply salt for a client.
This is part of the reason I wasn't afraid to bring up this post is to show the many people out there how things work.
Unfortunately I think the people who are on this forum are the ones who do know what its all about-its the ones who don't bother who visit sites like this that are "the uninformed"and really could use the help.


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## snowplowchick (Feb 22, 2008)

I have a large quantity of commercial lots. I have been informed of multiple slip and falls this season alone. And before you jump down my throat, I AM doing my job. A slip and fall itself is nothing to be concerned about if you are salting properly. People slip and fall everyday for multiple reasons. We don't react unless a lawyer is involved and a claim for damages is actually being made. One woman actually was quoted as saying that she put brand new leather dress boots on and was looking down while walking and putting her mittens on and she slipped. How is that my problem?

I give the incident report to my insurance agent along with my records for the day and leave it at that unless the person attempts to sue. The insurance company wants to pay out even less than I do so I know we are on the same side.


I just don't get why a major snow/ice storm prompts people to flock to the malls to go shopping! Stay home! If there are questionable conditions on your own driveway you should be prepared for the same conditions elsewhere.


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