# Supreme Court says people can sue cities over snow removal activities that cause injury



## E-Town (Mar 11, 2018)

*Ruling stems from case of woman in Nelson, B.C. who injured her leg climbing over a snowbank*
The Supreme Court of Canada ruled against the City of Nelson, B.C.'s argument that snow removal is a 'core policy decision,' and therefore immune from negligence claims, and ordered a new trial for a woman who sued Nelson in 2015 after injuring her leg in 2015 while climbing a snowbank.

*"By plowing the parking spaces on Baker Street, the City invited members of the public to use them to access businesses along the street," the ruling states. "The plaintiff was attempting to do just that when she fell into a snowbank that had been created by the City during snow removal."*

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/top-court-snow-removal-liability-1.6219354


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

I so they shouldn’t have cleared the parking spaces? Or they shouldn’t have created a snowbank? WTF. World is soo stupid


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Should’ve started with o not i


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

E-Town said:


> *Ruling stems from case of woman in Nelson, B.C. who injured her leg climbing over a snowbank*
> The Supreme Court of Canada ruled against the City of Nelson, B.C.'s argument that snow removal is a 'core policy decision,' and therefore immune from negligence claims, and ordered a new trial for a woman who sued Nelson in 2015 after injuring her leg in 2015 while climbing a snowbank.
> 
> *"By plowing the parking spaces on Baker Street, the City invited members of the public to use them to access businesses along the street," the ruling states. "The plaintiff was attempting to do just that when she fell into a snowbank that had been created by the City during snow removal."*
> ...


And you wonder why the insurance rates went up 900%


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Western1 said:


> I so they shouldn't have cleared the parking spaces? Or they shouldn't have created a snowbank?


Wait, wait! I know the answer to this one!


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## E-Town (Mar 11, 2018)

So let me ask this for all you guys that do commercial plowing; IF the owners of the property book only push and pile and during the weekend kids come around to slide and break an arm the family will sue?

So need to add to their contract to take out the snow of the property every snow fall? And this will add to more cost etc....


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

cwren2472 said:


> Wait, wait! I know the answer to this one!


And


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Western1 said:


> And


Yes. It was yes. But now you took all the fun out of it. Thanks a lot.


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Yes


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Your welcome a lot


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

They just opened the can of worms a little more .......


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

They apply the liability to us because we are paid to take care of the snow, why would the township be immune to this liability if they do it inhouse.
Here's something that few people know...
If you don't do it for compensation, say a church or cemetery or as a good deed. You can't be held liable and it falls on the property owner/organization.
So keep your receipts, if your insurance costs get to be higher than your gross you could claim you are a volunteer and get all your slip and falls thrown out...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

I found a different article that states:

"Late in the afternoon of Jan. 6, Marchi - then a 28-year-old nurse - parked in an angled spot on the street and, *wearing running shoes with a good tread,* tried to cross a snow pile to get on to the sidewalk."

Well, hell, now it all makes sense. Why should she expect to fall while climbing a mound of snow if her running shoes have good tread? That has to be good for at least 6 figures in a settlement (7 figures after the metric exchange rate)


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Mr.Markus said:


> They apply the liability to us because we are paid to take care of the snow, why would the township be immune to this liability if they do it inhouse.
> Here's something that few people know...
> If you don't do it for compensation, say a church or cemetery or as a good deed. You can't be held liable and it falls on the property owner/organization.
> So keep your receipts, if your insurance costs get to be higher than your gross you could claim you are a volunteer and get all your slip and falls thrown out...
> ...


If you don't do it for compensation ..... That "compensation thing" might not apply in different areas or in different states in the U.S.A. Laws change in different locations.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

thelettuceman said:


> If you don't do it for compensation ..... That "compensation thing" might not apply in different areas or in different states in the U.S.A. Laws change in different locations.


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## E-Town (Mar 11, 2018)

in the news tittle tonight on global just now:

" You can Sue Cities for fall and slip " ....


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Ambulance chasers are grinning more now .....


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ruling seems reasonable to me. See, you pay taxes for these services. The businesses along that street pay taxes for snow removal along the street. But IMO as cities have grown you get less and less for your tax dollars. They should have not plowed snow directly to the curb, but since that’s the easiest way, they should then cut paths through the snow banks to access the sidewalks. But they didn’t want to spend the time and money to do so because as was stated, this snowfall ate up 20% of the annual snow removal budget. 
A long time ago now our company serviced a corner lot (one big building with multiple businesses being run out of it ). So every time it snowed the city would plow snow along the street and create large snow banks cutting off the street from the sidewalks. So when we came to service the account, we would cut 6’ access paths through the banks so people didn’t have to climb the snow banks to access the sidewalks. Sometimes these snow banks were 5’ high as the season wore on and before the city would do a clean out of the snow. Was it costly and time consuming?? Yes, but we knew that and our price reflected those site conditions. My point being…The city charges taxes based on these very principles. But then reneg on their duties and expect citizens or businesses to just be ok with their negligence. Well, give us what our tax dollars are supposed to pay for…


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

They don’t plow the roads so you can shop at a store they plow so you can travel on the road. 

Jmo
Bad call


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> They apply the liability to us because we are paid to take care of the snow, why would the township be immune to this liability if they do it inhouse.
> Here's something that few people know...
> If you don't do it for compensation, say a church or cemetery or as a good deed. You can't be held liable and it falls on the property owner/organization.
> So keep your receipts, if your insurance costs get to be higher than your gross you could claim you are a volunteer and get all your slip and falls thrown out...
> ...


And the money you collected are tips?
There's a new angle to contracts: right in that you're doing it out of kindness, but tips are welcome and the recommended tip is $$$.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Can you set up your business as a non-profit?

& Would it make a difference ?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Can you set up your business as a non-profit?
> 
> & Would it make a difference ?


The only change for me would be the 501c3...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

EWSplow said:


> The only change for me would be the 501c3...


Do you think Canada will honor your American papers?
And 
What about business based in Canada?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Do you think Canada will honor your American papers?


Sorry, I don't know the metric version of it


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## E-Town (Mar 11, 2018)

EWSplow said:


> Sorry, I don't know the metric version of it


USA
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an *organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth* in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual.

CANADA
To qualify as an NPO, an entity must meet three tests. First, it cannot be a charity or an organization that could be registered as a charity. Second, *it must be organized and operated exclusively for a purpose other than profit*.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Ok 
So your nonprofit plows snow for donations used to fund the food shelf that you run or donate to. 

You don’t make a profit. you draw a salary that seems to be quite high compared to the private sector..


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> They don't plow the roads so you can shop at a store they plow so you can travel on the road.
> 
> Jmo
> Bad call


I believe (read as: I read it correctly and you didn't) they were slanted parking stalls. So yes, they are plowed so people can access the businesses and the businesses pay tax accordingly for those services.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

WIPensFan said:


> I believe (read as: I read it correctly and you didn't) they were slanted parking stalls. So yes, they are plowed so people can access the businesses and the businesses pay tax accordingly for those services.


So you're saying they shouldn't of cleared the right-of-way, pushing the snow to the curb. Instead they should've left the berm in the herringbone or the pull in'en backout or "stalls" ?

So the taxpayers of the city don't pay to have the all of the city streets plowed. Instead you pay taxes for the street in front of your business /home to be cleared separately ?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> They don't plow the roads so you can shop at a store they plow so you can travel on the road.
> 
> Jmo
> Bad call





Hydromaster said:


> So you're saying they shouldn't of cleared the right-of-way, pushing the snow to the curb. Instead they should've left the berm in the herringbone or the pull in'en backout or "stalls" ?
> 
> So the taxpayers of the city don't pay to have the all of the city streets plowed. Instead you pay taxes for the street in front of your business /home to be cleared separately ?


Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying here.
I'm saying they should have plowed the snow in a different direction so as to not create a berm between the slanted parking stalls and the sidewalk in front of the businesses, or they should have taken the time to cut some paths through the berm so people could walk to the sidewalk safely.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

WIPensFan said:


> Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying here.
> I'm saying they should have plowed the snow in a different direction so as to not create a berm between the slanted parking stalls and the sidewalk in front of the businesses, or they should have taken the time to cut some paths through the berm so people could walk to the sidewalk safely.


And I am saying is we plow the road for cars to travel on .Not every car on the road is going to a business . If they leave the berm in the parking areas then they cannot park there get out, scale the berm fall Because they didn't have crampons, icepick and a rope to access the business.

People shouldn't be J walking in the middle of the block. Go to the end of the block & access the sidewalk at the crosswalk.

We only plowed to the center of the road when we are going to remove all of the snow from the right of way.

Sew they plow my Road I have to scale the 5 foot berm, I fall off , land in the road break & my hip I can now sue the dept that plowed the road? Do they have to clear the end of all the driveways also?

I blame their parents.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I understand your point now. Your wrong.
You’re using the wrong analogies. They plowed it wrong because it was heavy and they were rushed or tired, or they simply didn’t feel like cutting paths through the berms. But the businesses are paying tax based on complexities from snow plowing and or removal. Among other things…

EDIT: 
The ruling just gives the ability of a retrial I believe? Not a ruling for or against her. Just gives her the ability to seek damages from the city for their negligence?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

They need to get over it…
Snow happens.

It’s winter,
snow banks matter.

So it’s their job to plow the road if the road is not plowed & I slide off the road hit a tree they’re responsible because I paid my taxes to have the road plowed?

Most places have 24 hours after the end of the snowfall to clear the sidewalk

And why does the sidewalk need to have access directly to the roadway every so many feet? 

You know just for discussions sake


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

No, they did not cause the snow on the road, they simply didn’t remove it yet. Whereas they did intentionally cause the snow berm after plowing the parking stalls therefor creating a hazard.

Sidewalk needs access from the parking stalls every so many feet so pedestrians don’t have to climb a snow berm and break their leg.
SAFETY


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Now…


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Is Common sense or personal responsibility even factored in?( pedestrian)

Who determines if a activity is safe or not?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Hydromaster said:


> They need to get over it…
> Snow happens.
> 
> It's winter,
> ...


In downtown Erin, it is a county road that is plowed by county trucks, the town plows the sidewalks.. the county plows the road and parking along the sidewalks.
2 or three times a year they subcontract the removal of the berm along the edge of the 2. Subcontracted to the lowest bidder by the town and stipulated when by the town. Access points are usually dug out by the business owners that want customers to attend their establishments...
Like a lawyers buffet...

Having said that, since I was a kid there has been a mens clothing store in a neighboring town, the owner would hand sweep the sidewalk infront of the store 2-3 times a day. He was always there before 7am doing it. He does very well.I noticed that his protege now does the same thing. It does get noticed when business owners show pride not only in there storefront but a sense of duty to their town as well.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

The missed important part, wether there are hokey lawsuits or not, (government)cities and countys and towns are "for profit commercial buisnesses". They must be treated as such.

Warning, long read next but vitally important.

Having limited liability for a cities actions should never be allowed. We as private owners would be dragged through the courts if someone sued us as we have no shield of limited liability. Yet we as private owners are forced to have insurance. But as well cities etc. also have to have insurance. Govco of all types are no different than us. They just fraudulently re-write all the rules they see fit for themselves to protect and shield and hide the profits. At all cost. That is the skim and the scam.

As @WIPensFan and @Mr.Markus stated, the govco's charge us extremely high taxes to provide these types of services. But as you see especially today, we are rarely if ever getting our moneys worth and the contracts between the people honored in full. But govco will always complain it is never enough. And every year just add more to the services tab and maybe provide 30-40% of the agreed upon service.

I have a pretty good explanation from a previous post a long time ago how it all works. Let us say my city earmarks 110 million for winter services to the people. The city gets paid that credit on January 1st at 12am for the following winter. They already have the winter budget they are working off of from last years January 1st. So the 110 million the people just gave them in credit for literally 10 to 11 months in advance of next winter, is gambled and invested and used to make profit the entire time before a snowflake falls in the proceeding end of fall that year. In my cities case, last winter they tried every trick and con in the book to provide as little winter services as possible, just enough to not have the taxpayer revolt. My city spent a whopping 31 million for the entire winter, out of a credit they already pre-charged us for of 110 million.

Do you see where I'm going with this? The city never gave back to the people the instant 79 million they earned as profit. That 31 million they did use includes the intrest and debt service on our credit for the 12 month fiscal year. Govco never paid the people back the excess they did not use or the over and above profit they made by gambling with the 110 million before they even spent a dime on the proceeding winter services year.

Imagine, you've got a slick new California trained, basically mob dealing, gambling and investing guru as your new city adminisrator.(thems the department that makes all the descisions with the peoples money), could easily gamble for 10 months that 110 million pre-paid tax credit from the people of the city. With just 10 gambling investments last year, all but guaranteed, the Cali slicker administrator could have theorhetically made 200 to 500 million off that 110 million of the taxpayers dollars. WHERE THE HE( LL DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS) IS THE PEOPLE'S CUT OF THAT PROFIT THAT GAVE HIM AND HIS DEPARTMENT THE CREDIT AND MONEY TO GAMBLE WITH????

The rabbit hole is very deep. I would like my money back they did not use, and I would like my cut of the profits. Capiche?

When a person is damaged by a city, county, town, govco etc., if the person wins a damage award, either the insurer pays, or the taxpayers gambling and investment trusts pays out the damages award.(usually both entities pay: ie the trust pays first, and the insurers pay the losses back to the city. It is a great scam. A no lose situation for the city the insurer and the banks(the ledger loss write-offs).

If you read this far. You should be P'O'd. You have every right to be angry. Govcos never told you what's really going on.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Ice-sage said:


> The missed important part, wether there are hokey lawsuits or not, (government)cities and countys and towns are "for profit commercial buisnesses". They must be treated as such.
> 
> Warning, long read next but vitally important.
> 
> ...


How long is your manifesto...?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Ok
> So your nonprofit plows snow for donations used to fund the food shelf that you run or donate to.
> 
> You don't make a profit. you draw a salary that seems to be quite high compared to the private sector..


You, as an employee, or officer can draw a salary for running the nonprofit.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

EWSplow said:


> You, as an employee, or officer can draw a salary for running the nonprofit.


Some of us dont even do that as a for profit...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> Some of us dont even do that as a for profit...


You and I both need better employees. ..


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> They apply the liability to us because we are paid to take care of the snow, why would the township be immune to this liability if they do it inhouse.
> Here's something that few people know...
> If you don't do it for compensation, say a church or cemetery or as a good deed. You can't be held liable and it falls on the property owner/organization.
> So keep your receipts, if your insurance costs get to be higher than your gross you could claim you are a volunteer and get all your slip and falls thrown out...
> ...


If my insurance is more than my gross, I'm out of business. Then theres no chance of a slip and fall.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> Is Common sense or personal responsibility even factored in?( pedestrian)
> 
> Who determines if a activity is safe or not?


I do! 


Ice-sage said:


> The missed important part, wether there are hokey lawsuits or not, (government)cities and countys and towns are "for profit commercial buisnesses". They must be treated as such.
> 
> Warning, long read next but vitally important.
> 
> ...


I only read the part where my name was mentioned…:waving:

j/k, good post!


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Hydromaster said:


> Is Common sense or personal responsibility even factored in?( pedestrian)
> 
> Who determines if a activity is safe or not?


This comes up in court or settlement as "percentage of blame"...its where they come up with a settlement number.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mr.Markus said:


> This comes up in court or settlement as "percentage of blame"...its where they come up with a settlement number.


Is scaling a 2ft berm is a dangerous activity? 
who forced the pedestrian to climb such a dangerous obstacle.

what percentage of responsibility do the
Parents bear?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> Is scaling a 2ft berm is a dangerous activity?
> who forced the pedestrian to climb such a dangerous obstacle.
> 
> what percentage of responsibility do the
> Parents bear?


Yes!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> Ruling seems reasonable to me. See, you pay taxes for these services. The businesses along that street pay taxes for snow removal along the street. But IMO as cities have grown you get less and less for your tax dollars. They should have not plowed snow directly to the curb, but since that's the easiest way, they should then cut paths through the snow banks to access the sidewalks. But they didn't want to spend the time and money to do so because as was stated, this snowfall ate up 20% of the annual snow removal budget.
> A long time ago now our company serviced a corner lot (one big building with multiple businesses being run out of it ). So every time it snowed the city would plow snow along the street and create large snow banks cutting off the street from the sidewalks. So when we came to service the account, we would cut 6' access paths through the banks so people didn't have to climb the snow banks to access the sidewalks. Sometimes these snow banks were 5' high as the season wore on and before the city would do a clean out of the snow. Was it costly and time consuming?? Yes, but we knew that and our price reflected those site conditions. My point being…The city charges taxes based on these very principles. But then reneg on their duties and expect citizens or businesses to just be ok with their negligence. Well, give us what our tax dollars are supposed to pay for…


And there will always be someone 15 minutes late since birth or lazy that will climb over the pile instead of finding the clear pathway.

We had it at a medical building, guy tried cutting across an island and fell. He lost because the lot and walks were clear. He was just too lazy to walk an extra 50 feet.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying here.
> I'm saying they should have plowed the snow in a different direction so as to not create a berm between the slanted parking stalls and the sidewalk in front of the businesses, or they should have taken the time to cut some paths through the berm so people could walk to the sidewalk safely.


The slippery slope.

Short of using snowblowers or removing snow every time it snow, there will always be a snow bank. So now anyone who slips and falls on a snowbank will sue.

This was a bad and stupid decision. People need to take some personal responsibility and wearing running shoes while climbing a snowbank is 100% on her/him/they.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> No, they did not cause the snow on the road, they simply didn't remove it yet. Whereas they did intentionally cause the snow berm after plowing the parking stalls therefor creating a hazard.
> 
> Sidewalk needs access from the parking stalls every so many feet so pedestrians don't have to climb a snow berm and break their leg.
> SAFETY


The alternative is to stop plowing the road. Problem solved.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> And there will always be someone 15 minutes late since birth or lazy that will climb over the pile instead of finding the clear pathway.
> 
> We had it at a medical building, guy tried cutting across an island and fell. He lost because the lot and walks were clear. He was just too lazy to walk an extra 50 feet.


He should lose. You had the pathways clear, and he chose to be stupid that day.


Mark Oomkes said:


> The slippery slope.
> 
> Short of using snowblowers or removing snow every time it snow, there will always be a snow bank. So now anyone who slips and falls on a snowbank will sue.
> 
> This was a bad and stupid decision. People need to take some personal responsibility and wearing running shoes while climbing a snowbank is 100% on her/him/they.


If that's the only way for safe access then it should be done.
I disagree. IF, and only IF, this was the only way to access the shops without an obviously long detour…then she did what most of us would do. 


Mark Oomkes said:


> The alternative is to stop plowing the road. Problem solved.


Or, plow it a different direction, or design it differently knowing full well this situation will present itself every snowfall. The city usually has final say on these projects as far as designing goes, if they are responsible for the snow removal. 
I've looked at many a site blueprint and said "where is the snow gonna go??" Or, "we'll have to cut some paths through there after it's plowed, and before the businesses open." I'm sure you have to Mark. 
At the wife's school they have walking paths sprayed with slanted yellow lines next to the parking lot islands. The janitors that do all the walks are responsible for keeping these clear and salted throughout the day and after the plows come through. The lot gets salted too so these areas get somewhat hit with bulk salt, but the janitors will usually redo them with purple slicer. So if you chose not to utilize these paths then that's on you if you fall. That's my opinion anyway. Don't know how the courts would rule.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Zero tolerance is a fallacy

maybe they shouldn’t of built their business is so close to the street

maybe they shouldn’t live in an area that snows

maybe the city should’ve had heated streets and sidewalks so they wouldn’t be any snow to contend with.

Maybe the sidewalks should flip up exposing snow dragons then the snow can be plowed directly into the snow dragon and then the sidewalk closes


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> Maybe the sidewalks should flip up exposing snow dragons then the snow can be plowed directly into the snow dragon and then the sidewalk closes


That would be awesome!










Oh, wait, you meant the other-

nevermind....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Zero tolerance is a fallacy
> 
> maybe they shouldn't of built their business is so close to the street
> 
> ...


Heated streets and walks across all of North America!!!!

Build back better!!!!!


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Heated streets and walks across all of North America!!!!
> 
> Build back better!!!!!


Maybe you really do come from Holland…


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Maybe you really do come from Holland…


Ja!


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Heated streets and walks across all of North America!!!!
> 
> Build back better!!!!!


pisst, this is aboot kanook-land to the north
Not the states.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> If that's the only way for safe access then it should be done.
> I disagree. IF, and only IF, this was the only way to access the shops without an obviously long detour…then she did what most of us would do.


You ever see anyone jaywalk when there is a perfectly marked crosswalk?

And NO snow?



WIPensFan said:


> Or, plow it a different direction, or design it differently knowing full well this situation will present itself every snowfall. The city usually has final say on these projects as far as designing goes, if they are responsible for the snow removal.
> I've looked at many a site blueprint and said "where is the snow gonna go??" Or, "we'll have to cut some paths through there after it's plowed, and before the businesses open." I'm sure you have to Mark.
> At the wife's school they have walking paths sprayed with slanted yellow lines next to the parking lot islands. The janitors that do all the walks are responsible for keeping these clear and salted throughout the day and after the plows come through. The lot gets salted too so these areas get somewhat hit with bulk salt, but the janitors will usually redo them with purple slicer. So if you chose not to utilize these paths then that's on you if you fall. That's my opinion anyway. Don't know how the courts would rule.


Snow is slippery, and it happens. It's not exactly black and white where snow goes or how it's plowed. Whether they plow it to the middle or the outside there will be a bank.

Maybe the street is too narrow to plow it to the middle if they don't have time to remove it every single time?

So what happens when the idiot jaywalker is too lazy to go to the crosswalk, slips on the berm in the middle of the street and gets run over?

That's why I said, unless you blow it or remove it every single time, there will be a berm.

The decision was stupid, bad and ignorant. Don't climb a snowbank and your chances of slipping and falling diminish greatly.

Life is full of dangers. Maybe this person shouldn't have left the house until the snow melted? What if he/she/they had slipped on unshoveled snow in their driveway or sidewalk?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Let’s see if they plow it a different way ?
Like putting the berm in the middle of the street. 
what if there was no parking on the side of the street where the business is I want to go to ? Now I have to park on the other side of the street & I had to cross the street as I crossed over the berm in the center of the road fell and injured myself .


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Let's see if they plow it a different way ?
> Like putting the berm in the middle of the street.
> what if there was no parking on the side of the street where the business is I want to go to ? Now I have to park on the other side of the street & I had to cross the street as I crossed over the berm in the center of the road fell and injured myself .


You're kinda late to the party...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You're kinda late to the party...


Lol
just today you thought it was in the United States.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Lol just today you thought it was in the United States


Show your work...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I don’t have to

Anyone who can read and with just a little comprehension they will pick it up on it on their own


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

You didn't...


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

let's stick to the discussion and the relevance to this industry, please

thank you!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Ok here you go
> You seem to share the same level of recall
> As brandon


You do realize that North America is far more than just America???










Kannada, USA, Greenland, Mehico, and even what is called Central America is all part of North America.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

And we know that’s not what you meant but OK, And He isn’t the president of North America. Maybe you should go back and spend some time in school

Snow slippery, people clumsy.


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## starspangled6.0 (Dec 3, 2013)

Call me maybe, call me crazy, but I think the best-case scenario is a blanket ruling absolving snow pros from site condition responsibility during the winter. MAYBE I'd vote for a gross negligence clause, such as complete failure to service the account that resulted in a snowed-in lot that then led to multiple accidents, but only maybe. 

I am all for the idea that I can sue Company A for damages if their widget blows up in my face during normal use. However, unless we figure out a way to play God, we'll never be able to even come close to creating summer-like conditions in the winter. It's not possible, and I don't think it ever will be. Unlike manufacturing or even other service industries, snow & ice contractors have very limited control over their work conditions. 

That seems to be the mindset of most suburbanites: they want to run around in their flip-flops in January like they do in July, and they want us/insurance companies to take the hit when they slip and fall. 

Will this ever happen? No. Here in MN, the rare few with brain cells in the state gov have proposed a bill that would release contractors from slip/fall liability if they take a state-certified best winter practices class. I think the government should fade into irrelevance on nearly all fronts, but for the here and now, I could get behind this. However, the lobbyists and activist types will never let this bill see the light of day, let alone come up for a vote.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> Zero tolerance is a fallacy
> 
> maybe they shouldn't of built their business is so close to the street
> 
> ...


Maybe…


Mark Oomkes said:


> You ever see anyone jaywalk when there is a perfectly marked crosswalk?
> 
> And NO snow?
> 
> ...


Why do you feel the need to win every argument?? Maybe you're wrong?? Why are we trying to vilify this poor lady who broke her leg because of negligence on the part of the city?? Let's get back to holding people accountable for crappy work practices. Also, there is quite a bit of unknowns here. I would really like to see where this happened and what other choices, if any, she had.
MAYBE I GET TO WIN THIS ONE!


Michael J. Donovan said:


> let's stick to the discussion and the relevance to this industry, please
> 
> thank you!


Thank you!! Holy mackerel…


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> Why do you feel the need to win every argument?? Maybe you're wrong?? Why are we trying to vilify this poor lady who broke her leg because of negligence on the part of the city?? Let's get back to holding people accountable for crappy work practices.


Why not?

I'm not.

Because it was her fault. Snow is slippery, life is full of dangers and ends in death.

Why does someone have to be at fault?

Do we know there was crappy work practices?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Why not?
> 
> I'm not.
> 
> ...


Yes


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

No


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> No


I'll see you in court!


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

my lawyer can beat up your lawyer.

she made a choice to live where it snows, she made a choice to go out on a day when it had just snowed or was snowing,
her judgment is in question, was she impaired by drugs or alcohol?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> my lawyer can beat up your lawyer.
> 
> she made a choice to live where it snows, she made a choice to go out on a day when it had just snowed or was snowing,
> her judgment is in question, was she impaired by drugs or alcohol?


I don't know, but I am.
What do people do the day after it snows??
They go shopping! And thank god they do, because that keeps the economy moving and businesses open. It's our job as Snow Professionals to keep them safe.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Snow removal/ plowing is overrated.
People should have enough on hand sew they can to go a “day” without going to the store.

And it doesn’t really if they are shopping for dog clothes at the boutique downtown. snow is slippery. if you live in an area where it snows you could slip. 
a individual needs to take the proper safety precautions or just stay home and drink.

do you need the government to do everything for you to Even make the most rudimentary decisions on your behalf?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> Snow removal/ plowing is overrated.


Says the "Hydromaster"!


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

WIPensFan said:


> Says the "Hydromaster"!


Experts and professionals don't need corduroy.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Experts and professionals don't need corduroy.


Polyester?

Velour?


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## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Yes


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

People wearing summer footwear in the winter probably also have summer tires on their vehicles all year around .


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

SHAWZER said:


> People wearing summer footwear in the winter probably also have summer tires on their vehicles all year around .


I've heard that winter tires are a scam by BigTire to make you spend more. Just like OEM plow fluid.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> I've heard that winter tires are a scam by BigTire to make you spend more. Just like OEM plow fluid.


Especially the synthetic winter tyres?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Especially the synthetic winter tyres?


Those are the scamiest of the scams


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Can we all agree “The Electric Jeep Guy” won this thread??

Me thinks so…:gunsfiring:


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

WIPensFan said:


> Can we all agree "The Electric Jeep Guy" won this thread??
> 
> Me thinks so…:gunsfiring:


Why? Did you say something in this thread?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

WIPensFan said:


> Can we all agree "The Electric Jeep Guy" won this thread??
> 
> Me thinks so…:gunsfiring:


Since were talking about scams....?!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> Why? Did you say something in this thread?


Please review and vote yes.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

It’s rigged


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> It's rigged


I'm sure more votes will come in over night.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> I'm sure more votes will come in over night.


Millions!


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Millions!


By mail…


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