# Lets talk background checks for new hires



## ktfbgb

Hey everyone. With the recent tragedy of the plow driver hitting and killing that poor woman and the discussion that followed got me thinking about my hiring procedures. I am not a snow only contractor, it's part of my annual revenue as a remodeling and repair contractor. Until now I have done the whole fill out an app, tell me about your experience, and if I can stand to be around you for more than five minutes you can have the job. After reading the comments in the other thread I did some more research and have decided that even though I'm small it's no excuse to not have some HR policies, and do some more screening, especially since I'm in the position to expand some this spring. 

Here is my situation. I don't have any drivers on my policy besides me. I don't have any company trucks other than mine. I hope to get another truck this year for my "foreman". So insurance denial up till now is a non issue, until I add a driver. Another good reason to start now. I'm also getting out of the high risk pool for work comp at the end of this policy thank god, so hopefully a drug/alcohol policy will help bring rates down even more. I am in AZ so the only regulation we have to follow is the Federal FCRA, and then of course we have to treat every new hire, and employee the same. 

I am going to write a typical drug/alcohol company policy that will outline testing for new hires, reasonable suspicion, accidents etc. I found some good templates from a couple different sites that provide open source HR templates for basic stuff like this.

I am going to require they provide a copy of their driving record with the application.

And I am going to do the background checks. I understand that they have to sign a release to do the check, and there are further notification requirements, and stuff like that if you find negative info on the check.

What has been your guys experiences setting up the HR policies for this? And mainly, there are a ton of services on line that provide the checks. Wondering which companies you guys use and like?


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## FredG

I'm not totally sure I want to drug test everybody, In the construction biz you have to send them to rehab, It's hard to fire them, Especially union guys, It depends what there doing for you, I don't want no operators or truck drivers puffin on weed. Reference from other employers is a good thing for me. I know most of them or somebody employed there.

A lot of these guys that do this type of work may have some issues, I had a guy that spent 6yrs in prison for selling cocaine. That 6yrs straightened him right up and would not even drink a beer. He would come to the bar and just drink soda. He left went Union.

Most good guys even if they due participate in recreational drugs no enough not to do it on the job. I don't give guys trucks to drive home anymore with the exception of 1 man. Drug and background checks cost money, Now if you plan at working at schools, Prisons etc you will have to have a FBI background check but they usually handle that and don't charge the Contractor. Some want credit checks. 

I found out most good guys have there own pickups, cars and prefer to drive there own vehicle. This is so you have no control over them, If they get mad etc they want and can take off. If You have a friend that is a cop a lot of the information you need is easy to get.

I always hire though other people, Put the word out have some knowledge of the person. I got plow guys by the groves, Laid off heavy highway union or not. I know all of them. I guess if you have to hire you know nothing about like a ghost you better do something.

I know a terrible thing happened to a Contractor in the other thread but I would have not hired anybody that would do something like that anyways, You can't run faster than your problems or the law. For me to have a 21yrs old in my truck he would at least have to have been with me since he was 18yrs old or at least with a contractor I know.

This is a tuff one, I guess if you need a bunch of guys you would have to be more stern than me. I got usually 4 guys and a driver. I like the Hispanic, They are loyal and dependable have family's and just want to survive. $15.00 to $18.00 depending on skills they are truly happy. Your not going to put them in a plow truck tho.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> I'm not totally sure I want to drug test everybody, In the construction biz you have to send them to rehab, It's hard to fire them, Especially union guys, It depends what there doing for you, I don't want no operators or truck drivers puffin on weed. Reference from other employers is a good thing for me. I know most of them or somebody employed there.
> 
> A lot of these guys that do this type of work may have some issues, I had a guy that spent 6yrs in prison for selling cocaine. That 6yrs straightened him right up and would not even drink a beer. He would come to the bar and just drink soda. He left went Union.
> 
> Most good guys even if they due participate in recreational drugs no enough not to do it on the job. I don't give guys trucks to drive home anymore with the exception of 1 man. Drug and background checks cost money, Now if you plan at working at schools, Prisons etc you will have to have a FBI background check but they usually handle that and don't charge the Contractor. Some want credit checks.
> 
> I found out most good guys have there own pickups, cars and prefer to drive there own vehicle. This is so you have no control over them, If they get mad etc they want and can take off. If You have a friend that is a cop a lot of the information you need is easy to get.
> 
> I always hire though other people, Put the word out have some knowledge of the person. I got plow guys by the groves, Laid off heavy highway union or not. I know all of them. I guess if you have to hire you know nothing about like a ghost you better do something.
> 
> I know a terrible thing happened to a Contractor in the other thread but I would have not hired anybody that would do something like that anyways, You can't run faster than your problems or the law. For me to have a 21yrs old in my truck he would at least have to have been with me since he was 18yrs old or at least with a contractor I know.
> 
> This is a tuff one, I guess if you need a bunch of guys you would have to be more stern than me. I got usually 4 guys and a driver. I like the Hispanic, They are loyal and dependable have family's and just want to survive. $15.00 to $18.00 depending on skills they are truly happy. Your not going to put them in a plow truck tho.


I hear ya on that. In AZ its right to work so we don't have to do any kind of rehab, if they are dirty on a pee test after an accident you can fire them, and then work comp wont cover any injuries and your policy wont go up because you had the policy in place, and they broke policy, so they don't have to pay. I just nervous as we have a limited work force here so word of mouth doesn't work so well unless you are trying to poach someone from another company. I do the majority of my work in multi million dollar homes, with no one there while we work. So, leaving them there by themselves can be scary, Also the scenario of working on something while the lady of the house is there by herself etc. happens all the time. I would rather be safe than sorry and get held liable. I read some articles about situations like this where the contractor was held liable because of negligent hiring practices. Negligent because there was no background check done etc., so they went after the owner for allowing someone like that to work in a house unsupervised .


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## leolkfrm

pre employment drug test does not give you liability to save them, be sure they sign that they are aware that if drug use while employeed by you will not be tolerated and they are subject to a test if suspected while employed,...if positive result automatic termination
a lot insurance co want copies of drivers license before they can be added, so a clean one is important, and proves responsibility


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## FredG

Your in a different situation than me, In your case with working inside the home and limited work force you will have to do something, We work outside mostly in city right of ways all cautioned taped in. Yes in your situation I would use some caution. Specially if they are all ghost to you. LOL


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## SnoFarmer

What if weed is legal?
your employees could be consuming alcohol but if you test them 2 days latter there are no signs of the alcohol.
but you will penalize the guy who smoked a joint on the weekend because he will test positive for 30days or more...
metabolized thc is not a indicator of intoxication.

test at the time of hire.Thumbs Up
then if there is a accident the law will test, if they feel it is necessary.

if they drive, a lic and a copy or their driving record which can easily be obtained..

But in the end you have no control over what they do & accidents will happen. 
have INS......


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## FredG

Furthermore There are chemicals these guys buy that make them look clean, They even got sacks of clean urine in there pants. LOL


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## SnoFarmer

Fred. is correct on the union thing.
if a union member tests positive,
first offense,
sent to the rehab folks.
they will do some testing, head shrinking . Doc, will determine if you have a problem or not.
if they find your not a "addict" and dont "problem".
your back to work.
if you have a problem you have to go threw spin-dry class and your back to work.

you will need to win 3 major grievance's in a year to fire,
arnt unions great.....

ps fyi "urine luck" works ...

some do get by with trying to use "bagged urin, but if they dont have someone in the room with you.
they will take the temp of the sample right after you present it, if it is to cold you fail, as you tampered with the sample. the chances are your bagged pee will be to cold.


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## FredG

Really I could careless what they do on there own time as far as weed goes, I don't want no addict or pill popper. Thats how things start growing legs, LOL


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## ktfbgb

We do have legal medical marijuana in Arizona. So there are some special rules that apply to drug testing and namely they just have to show that they have the card issued to them. That it gets tricky and you have to go off of if the supervisor thinks they are under the influence while on work or not. But mainly I just want to show that I have a policy in place in case there is a DUI situation while on the clock. I can show that I was not negligent and that we have a standard policy in place against workplace drug and alcohol use


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## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> Furthermore There are chemicals these guys buy that make them look clean, They even got sacks of clean urine in there pants. LOL


If they try to flush or the other ways of hiding it, it is an automatic fail.


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## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> Really I could careless what they do on there own time as far as weed goes, I don't want no addict or pill popper. Thats how things start growing legs, LOL


This statement completely contradicts itself.


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> If they try to flush or the other ways of hiding it, it is an automatic fail.[/QUOTE I know a ton of guys that have past drug test with a flush kit and have not failed. This is a fact,


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> This statement completely contradicts itself.


Could you explain how?


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## Mark Oomkes

So people aren't addicted to weed? And those same addicts never steal to support their habits? Or have the same issues that addicts to other drugs have?

And you better find a better testing facility.


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## Defcon 5

Fred...I'm union...We get random drug tested...We also get tested once a year..Mandatory...We also get tested after a Ticket or an accident...I hit a deer a few months back and got tested...I. Don't have a problem with the testing....Because I don't have anything to hide


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## ktfbgb

What companies are you guys using to do your background checks?


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes said:


> So people aren't addicted to weed? And those same addicts never steal to support their habits? Or have the same issues that addicts to other drugs have?
> 
> And you better find a better testing facility.


Only a mental addiction.

I was tested at a hospital and so are the other afscme members.
And what Fred says does happen,
They don't search you very well
They put dye in the toilet, and shut off the water to the room.

For a non felony they don't have anyone watch you pee or in the room.
You can dump the rest of the sample in the sink or toilet that you brought or take it out.
If that is your methoid.

You can get a additive that is about 2 thimbles worth of liquid that you can add to your
Sampel that is undetectable that will nuturlize thc

you don't have to use drugs and or alcohol to be a thief.


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## SnoFarmer

Defcon 5 said:


> g....Because I don't have anything to hide


And that is how we got gun control......
the patriot act, and other constutional rights regulated and denied.

Becuse the lemmings had nothing to " hide"


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## BUFF

I've had pre-employment drug test (had to study for a few), physicals and background checks. Also had more in-depth background checks for ITAR/FFL regulated products.
Recreational weed is also legal in Co which makes it a little dicey. Most company's adhere to the Federal laws regarding weed for insurance purposes.
From a employer perspective I support doing a thorough check on new employees, I see the cost as being minimal and as insurance in a way in the long run. You can at least weed oot potential problems.


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## WIPensFan

ktfbgb, if you are making a good living doing things the way you are now, don't hire any employees or add a truck as this will complicate your life in ways you can't imagine. We thought about trying the drug testing thing very briefly and it didn't pan out due to cost and a few other problems. Because the work force is limited in many areas including ours, you limit yourself even further when you're trying to hire "upstanding citizens" that are few and far between. Yes, there are some good people out there but they are hard to find. I've had many great employees that smoke weed or drink or whatever else they do on their own time, but of course I didn't allow it at work or let it affect their work. If it did I let them go, period. I knew too, it's not hard tell if you're paying attention. I do landscape and snow removal work btw. 
Also, it doesn't matter how much you pay them, they will still screw you over and do stupid stuff.
Good luck.


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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> So people aren't addicted to weed? And those same addicts never steal to support their habits? Or have the same issues that addicts to other drugs have?
> 
> And you better find a better testing facility.


I don't test why would I need a testing facility, I got a driver and because of his age they test him at his annual physical. No typically weed smokers are not like heroin, Crack, cocaine and opiates steal from there Mother to get high. If somebody test clean 1 week later they could be dirty, Very Simple.


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## FredG

Defcon 5 said:


> Fred...I'm union...We get random drug tested...We also get tested once a year..Mandatory...We also get tested after a Ticket or an accident...I hit a deer a few months back and got tested...I. Don't have a problem with the testing....Because I don't have anything to hide


That's good, Your good to go, Still does not mean someone can't beat a drug test. I know guys that pass all the time. And I know they smoke,


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> What companies are you guys using to do your background checks?


One of your cop friend can get you the info you need.


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## FredG

You want to get technical, Alcohol is the worst drug on the planet, More deaths, More locked up, Not just death from DWI accidents heath related deaths, Does anyone think weed won't be legal in a few years? How many overdose on weed?


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## leolkfrm

and the good news is batavia gcasa just got 850000 for a meth clinic! sad times


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## Defcon 5

SnoFarmer said:


> And that is how we got gun control......
> the patriot act, and other constutional rights regulated and denied.
> 
> Becuse the lemmings had nothing to " hide"


And it's obvious that you do have something to hide other than you mental illness...


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## SnoFarmer

One could do shrooms, drink and snort coke on friday night and test neg on Monday moring.
Your only catching the folks who do drugs that have a longer half life ....

You couLd use some mouth washes and blow over the limit for work standards.( alcohol)

Nothing to hide buy ones privacy , and Todd, it's a shame privacy means nothing to you.

I have nothing to hide if a judge orders a search warent , I'll willingly comply.
I'm not letting you or anyone else enter just becuse they want to.


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## Defcon 5

I would mulch rather be a "Lemming" pulling down a six figure income and living an upright life than some lunatic living in a shack in Northern Minnesota eating puppy chow and Trolling the Internet all day....


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## SnoFarmer

Defcon 5 said:


> I would mulch rather be a "Lemming" pulling down a six figure income and living an upright life than some lunatic living in a shack in Northern Minnesota eating puppy chow and Trolling the Internet all day....


If you only had a clue,

Hint, mn is one of the top states for millionaires per capita.

It takes $$$ and or income from ones other business to sit back in that shack over looking the lake, not haveing to go work for the man like you do.

You are angry......
And bitter.

I hear they have a drug for that....


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## FredG

Defcon 5 said:


> I would mulch rather be a "Lemming" pulling down a six figure income and living an upright life than some lunatic living in a shack in Northern Minnesota eating puppy chow and Trolling the Internet all day....


Union Monkey earning a six fig income. Man I must be a FOG and the rates went up. I think topped out at 83 to 85k.


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## Dirtebiker

SnoFarmer said:


> And that is how we got gun control......
> the patriot act, and other constutional rights regulated and denied.
> 
> Becuse the lemmings had nothing to " hide"


This^^^
I'm opposed to big brother and unnecessary testing.
and as far as being "addicted" to pot, that's ridiculous!
I smoked from my teens through my late 40's. I quit as soon as my pain specialist said he wouldn't prescribe my meds if I didn't. Quit cold turkey! No problems, no "withdrawal ".
Also, I've known many people who've smoked most of their lives, most of those people, I could trust with my life. Pot is not like any other drug. Alcohol is much, much more disruptive than pot could ever be.


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## FredG

WIPensFan said:


> ktfbgb, if you are making a good living doing things the way you are now, don't hire any employees or add a truck as this will complicate your life in ways you can't imagine. We thought about trying the drug testing thing very briefly and it didn't pan out due to cost and a few other problems. Because the work force is limited in many areas including ours, you limit yourself even further when you're trying to hire "upstanding citizens" that are few and far between. Yes, there are some good people out there but they are hard to find. I've had many great employees that smoke weed or drink or whatever else they do on their own time, but of course I didn't allow it at work or let it affect their work. If it did I let them go, period. I knew too, it's not hard tell if you're paying attention. I do landscape and snow removal work btw.
> Also, it doesn't matter how much you pay them, they will still screw you over and do stupid stuff.
> Good luck.


Some take there own time serious, I seen some bigger company's pass on testing, They would lose there whole crew, Guys that been working together for a long time, 2 out of 10 are clean now what? I know everybody is replaceable but your screwed in the mean time. WC don't care if you did not screen they just won't pay if you have drugs in your urine. They can't come back on the Contractor, Theirs a gray area some will cross some won't. These guys that really hump and make you money are not angels. Watch your drivers the slugs who cares.


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## FredG

Dirtebiker said:


> This^^^
> I'm opposed to big brother and unnecessary testing.
> and as far as being "addicted" to pot, that's ridiculous!
> I smoked from my teens through my late 40's. I quit as soon as my pain specialist said he wouldn't prescribe my meds if I didn't. Quit cold turkey! No problems, no "withdrawal ".
> Also, I've known many people who've smoked most of their lives, most of those people, I could trust with my life. Pot is not like any other drug. Alcohol is much, much more disruptive than pot could ever be.


bingo bingo bingo


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## FredG

Alcohol = Fights, domestic violence, Tons of arrests, DWI = jail time, I seen people drunk turn on you, I mean long time friends, I know that don't happen with weed, I don't act up when I'm drunk, When I'm sober I might act up. lol


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## Defcon 5

FredG said:


> Union Monkey earning a six fig income. Man I must be a FOG and the rates went up. I think topped out at 83 to 85k.


Between the Union Monkey gig and my Hobby Snow plowing. I do just fine...But I'm not in Snos realm


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## ktfbgb

WIPensFan said:


> ktfbgb, if you are making a good living doing things the way you are now, don't hire any employees or add a truck as this will complicate your life in ways you can't imagine. We thought about trying the drug testing thing very briefly and it didn't pan out due to cost and a few other problems. Because the work force is limited in many areas including ours, you limit yourself even further when you're trying to hire "upstanding citizens" that are few and far between. Yes, there are some good people out there but they are hard to find. I've had many great employees that smoke weed or drink or whatever else they do on their own time, but of course I didn't allow it at work or let it affect their work. If it did I let them go, period. I knew too, it's not hard tell if you're paying attention. I do landscape and snow removal work btw.
> Also, it doesn't matter how much you pay them, they will still screw you over and do stupid stuff.
> Good luck.


Thanks for the thoughts WIPens. Unfortunatly I am not where I want to be haha. I make a decent living but I am still self employed. There is a difference between being self employed and being a business owner. My plans are to be a business owner, and have to pick up tools anymore. I have too many injuries to keep swinging hammers for ever so, I need to switch once the time is right to owner mode and just procure work and run the company and let other people swing hammers.

I am not new to employees either. I hire them this time of year every year, as I can't remodel houses by myself lol. This go around I want to be able to screen and have some HR policies in place to protect the company as it grows. I don't want to build it where I want it and have something happen in court where they find I was a negligent in hiring and didn't even have HR policies in place. I'm not even sure about drug testing for pre employment screening, I still need to research if I can have a workplace drug and alcohol policy in place and then just screen after accidents or injuries. I know damn well I don't want my work comp going up because so guy was on something at work and got hurt. If they test positive after an injury then work comp will deny the claim and my rates won't go up.

I want background checks for screening major things that would effect my company like convictions for theft, assault, rape etc. so that I can be less worried about having a crew working working at a 10 million dollar house where only the trophy wife is around.

And I'm going to need another truck for a foreman so he can haul the tool trailer around, pick up lumber packages etc. so that I don't have too. In the late spring and summer I literally answer at least 30 phone calls a day, and average 4 estimates per day. So ive been using a foreman and a couple other skilled laborers each year and I bring materials in the morning and line them out for day and then I'm usually gone doing other stuff. It just gets hard when they need something we didn't expect, or finish a job mid day and move to the next one and they don't have the ability to tow my trailer etc.

This winter my foreman I've had the last 3 years moved to Phoenix so I'm hiring all positions and just thinking about how to do it better.


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## ktfbgb

SnoFarmer said:


> One could do shrooms, drink and snort coke on friday night and test neg on Monday moring.
> Your only catching the folks who do drugs that have a longer half life ....
> 
> You couLd use some mouth washes and blow over the limit for work standards.( alcohol)
> 
> Nothing to hide buy ones privacy , and Todd, it's a shame privacy means nothing to you.
> 
> I have nothing to hide if a judge orders a search warent , I'll willingly comply.
> I'm not letting you or anyone else enter just becuse they want to.


I'm stuck on this too. I believe that big brother needs to stay out of our lives and guys have a right to privacy. I'm just trying to figure out how to protect my business the right way with out being too intrusive. I feel like this year or the next will be a fulcrum point where we can finally sell over a million of work. And I need to make good decisions because it could tip either way and I could end up on the side I've been working towards, or on the side that sets me back a couple years.

I know that I'm not going to find squeaky clean guys, especially in this industry, but there is a line I think between what's acceptable for my company in the environment we work in.

And also I haven't separated snow operations, from the rest of the company. I keep seperate records etc., but in order to avoid discrimination I have to do the same for all employees. I can't require urine tests and MVD records for plow guys, but not construction guys. And most the time the guys do both. And if I get a truck for the foreman, you can bet I'm going to put another plow on it so that it can earn it's keep. I will have to have a driver for the truck, so then I would need these policies in place.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> One of your cop friend can get you the info you need.


I thought about that but the FCRA says that if you find derogatory information on the guy you have to provide the company info and a copy of the report so that the guy can dispute it if there is incorrect information on it. Even if one of my cop friends would do it, I'm sure they would, I wouldn't want to put them in that situation.


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## ktfbgb

Mark Oomkes said:


> So people aren't addicted to weed? And those same addicts never steal to support their habits? Or have the same issues that addicts to other drugs have?
> 
> And you better find a better testing facility.


Mark what do you do. I know you are running a large operation. Do you use a third party to handle the checks for you?


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## SnoFarmer

Pee , as a condition of employment .
Then only test For cause.

The random test is a witch hunt.
As its hard to be random with few employees.
Most can tell when one of their guys is under the influance and remove them.

Random testing rerely catches the guy who is out plowing with a 12 pack of bud...



Testing,
Can't you join a grope like a trucker does for drug testing?

Jmo,


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## ktfbgb

SnoFarmer said:


> Pee , as a condition of employment .
> Then only test For cause.
> 
> The random test is a witch hunt.
> As its hard to be random with few employees.
> Most can tell when one of their guys is under the influance and remove them.
> 
> Random testing rerely catches the guy who is out plowing with a 12 pack of bud...
> 
> Testing,
> Can't you join a grope like a trucker does for drug testing?
> 
> Jmo,


Ya I wasn't gonna waste money on the random testing. I need to call a couple places. We have two places in town that are dedicated to drug screening, so that part I think will be easy to set up an account. But if there is a group you can join I would look into that as well. I don't think it costs too much at these screening facilities. I'm sure it would be expensive if you didn't have that around and had to use a normal lab or hospital to provide the service.

Was interested in what others are doing on the subject, and then what other guys were using for background checks. There's about a billion companies online providing the service so didn't know what companies might be better to deal with etc.


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## FredG

You get one incident were some :terribletowel:was caught with his pants down and all hell breaks loose. If this Contractor thought he was okay with the criminal he hired to drive his truck does not change the life of people that know better, You play in the rain you have to deal with the mud. I have some sympathy for him, He made his own bed. A driver you hire and a slug driver are not the same. Bad judgement call.


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## FredG

Defcon 5 said:


> Between the Union Monkey gig and my Hobby Snow plowing. I do just fine...But I'm not in Snos realm


We all know you got all the Money. No question, You the man.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> We all know you got all the Money. No question, You the man.


LMAO


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## ktfbgb

Hey fellas, just a little piece of info I found. I was reading the Arizona Revised Statutes on employment and labor. Like I mentioned before AZ is a medical marijuana state. However the law states that if you have "Safety sensitive" positions you may deny to employ anyone who has a legal medical marijuana card. And if they are already an employee, if you classify the position as safety sensitive, they may be terminated if they continue to use medical marijuana. A safety sensitive position is defined as any position defined by the employer in good faith that could result in injury to the employee or others around them if under the influence of medical marijuana. They go on to specifically classify any job where operating a vehicle, machinery, or power tools as safety sensitive. They also include any worker that works outside of the businesses office in any customers private or commercial property as safety sensitive. 

Basically under AZ law anyone that works outside of a contained office environment, that may enter a customers commercial or private property, or uses any powered tool, or equipment can be classified as safety sensitive, allowing the employer to refuse hiring or terminating a current employee.

Not saying that I would be this drastic about it. But since the question was brought up about medical marijuana/legal recreational use states, its very clear in my state, that I as the employer can classify the position as Safety Sensitive in the job description, and ban all use medical or not as I meet the standard of safety sensitive on multiple levels, for every position I have in my company.


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## BUFF

ktfbgb said:


> Hey fellas, just a little piece of info I found. I was reading the Arizona Revised Statutes on employment and labor. Like I mentioned before AZ is a medical marijuana state. However the law states that if you have "Safety sensitive" positions you may deny to employ anyone who has a legal medical marijuana card. And if they are already an employee, if you classify the position as safety sensitive, they may be terminated if they continue to use medical marijuana. A safety sensitive position is defined as any position defined by the employer in good faith that could result in injury to the employee or others around them if under the influence of medical marijuana. They go on to specifically classify any job where operating a vehicle, machinery, or power tools as safety sensitive. They also include any worker that works outside of the businesses office in any customers private or commercial property as safety sensitive.
> 
> Basically under AZ law anyone that works outside of a contained office environment, that may enter a customers commercial or private property, or uses any powered tool, or equipment can be classified as safety sensitive, allowing the employer to refuse hiring or terminating a current employee.
> 
> Not saying that I would be this drastic about it. But since the question was brought up about medical marijuana/legal recreational use states, its very clear in my state, that I as the employer can classify the position as Safety Sensitive in the job description, and ban all use medical or not as I meet the standard of safety sensitive on multiple levels, for every position I have in my company.


 Nowadays with individual states passing med or rec weed usage its still not legal in the eyes of the feds. Strictly from a business perspective federal laws trump :usflag::usflag::usflag::usflag::usflag: state laws at the end of the day. As employers we have the option to hire who we think would be an asset and background checks, physicals and drug testing prior to employment are a way to give you as an employer a sanity check before hiring. After hiring random testing just because is BS IMO, as stated before alcohol is a huge problem and the use is accepted. Weed use is becoming more accepted on the state level but not on the federal level and I said before it can/most likely be an insurance issue. What a employee does on their own time in their business however if an employee has an accident while at work a drug test and breathalyzer/blood test should be performed.
I've done a lot of experimenting when it comes to achieving the ultimate buzz and pursued this for mulch longer than most. I can see both sides of the argument but at the end of the day your choice as employer has a huge impact on your business and exposure to liability.
The labor pool was mentioned and is limited, that shouldn't sway your judgment when hiring. When you do find someone worthwhile to hire you spent time/resources to train them before they come up to speed. I've found there to be a fall oot rate of 60% 1st year, 35% the 2nd year and 20% the 3rd and this is with drug testing and background checks.


----------



## ktfbgb

BUFF said:


> Nowadays with individual states passing med or rec weed usage its still not legal in the eyes of the feds. Strictly from a business perspective federal laws trump :usflag::usflag::usflag::usflag::usflag: state laws at the end of the day. As employers we have the option to hire who we think would be an asset and background checks, physicals and drug testing prior to employment are a way to give you as an employer a sanity check before hiring. After hiring random testing just because is BS IMO, as stated before alcohol is a huge problem and the use is accepted. Weed use is becoming more accepted on the state level but not on the federal level and I said before it can/most likely be an insurance issue. What a employee does on their own time in their business however if an employee has an accident while at work a drug test and breathalyzer/blood test should be performed.
> I've done a lot of experimenting when it comes to achieving the ultimate buzz and pursued this for mulch longer than most. I can see both sides of the argument but at the end of the day your choice as employer has a huge impact on your business and exposure to liability.
> The labor pool was mentioned and is limited, that shouldn't sway your judgment when hiring. When you do find someone worthwhile to hire you spent time/resources to train them before they come up to speed. I've found there to be a fall oot rate of 60% 1st year, 35% the 2nd year and 20% the 3rd and this is with drug testing and background checks.


Well said.


----------



## BUFF

ktfbgb said:


> Well said.


Yeah it was..............and I've had plenty of pints tonight........That's messed up......:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:


----------



## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> Hey fellas, just a little piece of info I found. I was reading the Arizona Revised Statutes on employment and labor. Like I mentioned before AZ is a medical marijuana state. However the law states that if you have "Safety sensitive" positions you may deny to employ anyone who has a legal medical marijuana card. And if they are already an employee, if you classify the position as safety sensitive, they may be terminated if they continue to use medical marijuana. A safety sensitive position is defined as any position defined by the employer in good faith that could result in injury to the employee or others around them if under the influence of medical marijuana. They go on to specifically classify any job where operating a vehicle, machinery, or power tools as safety sensitive. They also include any worker that works outside of the businesses office in any customers private or commercial property as safety sensitive.
> 
> Basically under AZ law anyone that works outside of a contained office environment, that may enter a customers commercial or private property, or uses any powered tool, or equipment can be classified as safety sensitive, allowing the employer to refuse hiring or terminating a current employee.
> 
> Not saying that I would be this drastic about it. But since the question was brought up about medical marijuana/legal recreational use states, its very clear in my state, that I as the employer can classify the position as Safety Sensitive in the job description, and ban all use medical or not as I meet the standard of safety sensitive on multiple levels, for every position I have in my company.


Maybe I better stay in the office. LOL


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> One of your cop friend can get you the info you need.


Most departments have a policy restricting running backgrounds for non-department use. Not saying it doesn't happen, but they can get in trouble for doing it.

No need to get a friend in trouble.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> I don't test why would I need a testing facility, I got a driver and because of his age they test him at his annual physical. No typically weed smokers are not like heroin, Crack, cocaine and opiates steal from there Mother to get high. If somebody test clean 1 week later they could be dirty, Very Simple.


A reputable testing company will not pass anyone who has any of the screening agents or dilution agents in their urine. It's an automatic fail.

And, like Sno said, anyone can steal. It isn't limited to those who use coke, heroin, meth, alchohol, MJ, whatever. But someone with a habit is for more likely than someone who isn't supporting a habit.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

ktfbgb said:


> Mark what do you do. I know you are running a large operation. Do you use a third party to handle the checks for you?


Honestly, we don't usually do pre-employment testing. Generally either the background check or MVR will rule them oot by that time. Or the interview.

We have a company that does our HR stuff and payroll. They will also run background checks for a slight fee. MVR's are done by the insurance company at no cost.


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> A reputable testing company will not pass anyone who has any of the screening agents or dilution agents in their urine. It's an automatic fail.
> 
> And, like Sno said, anyone can steal. It isn't limited to those who use coke, heroin, meth, alchohol, MJ, whatever. But someone with a habit is for more likely than someone who isn't supporting a habit.


Until you can prove me wrong I'm saying they can't be detected, My GP tested me for weed and did not tell me. I have been urine screened for the last 3yrs every 3 months. I failed, He called me on the phone and asked me if I smoked weed I admitted to it I was busted period. He tells me we need to do another urine test I comply the following day,

If I did not comply I could not get my prescriptions. The stuff I buy will last for 8hrs with amount of water. I drink the stuff before I go to the next urine test, I passed, Now I know he is going to test me I drink the stuff right before My visit every 3mths, No problems no issues. Maybe your state does something different in your state that can detect these agents, I will assure you this is how it is here.

They even got shampoo that will pass a hair folic screening. I have seen my BIL pass by quitting a few days before screening by drinking 10gal of water. I know anybody can be a thief. The truly addicted are more liable to steal to support there addiction.

You could take someone who never stole anything in his life. Let him get addicted to crack. He will steal before he does without.


----------



## Defcon 5

I don't agree with half the things I have to do to continue employment...But on the flip side I don't have to work there...it's my choice...

Drug testing can be beat very easily...I have several friends that buy and have used synthetic urine...It works and they have passed many times...

As for the accident in Marks neck of the woods...If I was still in business that guy would have never been driving for me and quite possible not even running a shovel for me...The Landscape industry workforce is a low entry job that attracts low entry people...


I'm all for Background checks at employment...


----------



## Defcon 5

We can sit here and talk about rights and all that...But as a business owner I would do everything within my rights to protect the company I have built...To many owners out there are lazy and hard up for someone to fill a seat that they look towwards the ground when hiring someone...You are seeing the effects of that with this accident and an increasing number of other ones


----------



## Mark Oomkes

http://www.athomedrugtest.net/hair-drug-test-shampoos-dont-work/

I really like this guy's method:

_This works every time...My friend works in a forensic lab showed me how...I passed 8 hair tests Never failed.

1. Strip hair with vinegar..Leave in and let it saturate into the hair for about ten minutes. "Dont Rinse Out"....Oh yea watch your eyes the crap burns like doo doo.

2. Should told you this first...But you will need to buy a bottle Clean & Clear skin toning and deep cleanser...It's for pimples and acne....You will need to put that in your hair while the vinegar still there. You will feel a burning sensation. Masage into the scalp for about 5minutes. What happens is it cleans while the vinegar has your pores open

3. Ok now as crazy as this crap sounds but you will need Tide laundry detergent.
Powder or liquid it doesn't matter. Wash your hair with it and rinse thoroughly with warm water. Please dont get the Tide in your eyes..keep eyes close shut . Tide has the best cleaning agent of all detergents.

4. Now just use your favorite aloe (moisturizing shampoo).....Any kind you want to use.

5. Do that four step process the day of your deadline

I dont believe how some of you guys worry like that.....I'm heavy user of all drugs for 15 years....Be surprise what alittle knowledge will do...Have a nice day ya'll _

I hope it's worth it. Might as well pour sulfuric acid and Drano on your head. At the same time.

----------------------------------------------

I was using the wrong terminology. Masking agents will create a false positive which for most (all?) labs will result in an automatic failure.

_Masking Agents for Urine: What Are They and Do They Work?










If you use drugs like weed sometimes and are looking for ways to pass a drug test, you've probably heard about masking agents. These basically involve taking or applying something to get through a drug test. To understand why some things work and some things don't, let's first look at how drug tests work.

A well-run drug test involves two elements: a test for drugs and an adulterant test. The drug test looks for the presence of drug metabolites, while the adulteration test specifically tries to detect masking agents. It does this by checking chemical properties-such as the pH level, creatine concentrations and specific gravity-and looking for known chemical masking agents. This means a masking agent only truly works if it can pass both tests.

*Diuretics and Dilution*

A diuretic is something that makes you pee more. For example, caffeine-based drinks like tea and coffee have a mild diuretic effect. Drug residues slowly moves from the blood into the urine over time, so as you pee more, your urine becomes diluted. Diluted urine has lower drug levels than normal. Sometimes just drinking plenty of water is enough to get this effect.

Unfortunately, dilution is very common, so the testing labs specifically look for it. An experienced tester will even notice the pale color straight away, but if not, the chemical markers will flag it up. This usually means you'll need to take the test again.

*Fast-acting detox drinks* work on a similar principle, but they are specially formulated to keep your urine properties normal and pass the adulterant test. Their ingredients are also natural, so they can't be detected in a test.

*Additives*

Lots of people have added household products like lemon juice, baking soda, vinegar, and drain cleaner to their urine to pass drug tests. These may have worked in the old days, but they're now surefire ways to fail the adulterant test. What's more, it might be obvious you tried to cheat, so stay away from them.

Some commercial additives also worked for a while, but many of these were discontinued because labs can easily detect them now.

*Drinking/Eating Various Substances*

There are many myths out there about getting through drug tests by doing things like eating plenty of fiber, drinking lots of cranberry juice, taking Dexatrim, and swallowing Jell-O mixes. There's little evidence these actually work, and it's probably just a fluke when they do. Drinking lots of cranberry juice, for example, will dilute your urine, which probably means you'll fail the adulterant test.

*Testing Yourself*

Whatever masking agent you use, you probably want to be sure it'll work. You can get *single* or *multi-panel testing kits* for just a few bucks. Spend a bit more, and you can even do your own *adulterant test*.
_


----------



## Mark Oomkes

https://www.theweedblog.com/plan-on-cheating-on-a-drug-test-for-weed-think-again-its-not-worth-it/_

There are three primary ways to "try" to cheat a drug Test: Dilution, Substitution, and Adulteration.

How to cheat on a drug test for weed is a very common question and is googled over 10,000 times a day. Marijuana is more popular than ever and employers are also drug testing for marijuana more than ever. Millions of people each year need help passing a drug test for all kinds of different drugs, the most common being marijuana. Many people think the only way to pass a drug test is to cheat by using fake urine or sketchy cover-up products and drinks. We urge all our readers who need help passing a drug test to read this article and realize that you can pass a drug test for weed naturally without cheating by fully detoxing your body.

*How can a testing lab tell I cheated on my drug test for weed?*

*At the Laboratory:*

Labs have greatly improved their methods in detecting those specimens that have been tampered with by the donor.

Cheating on drug tests by "adulterating" urine samples, or altering a specimen by changing its concentration, is a common practice that marijuana users use to hide the presence of THC in their system. Previously, some abusers were able to pass a drug test by using one of these strategies. But new lab technologies are now detecting drugs in samples that were altered and un-testable before. Today, lab tests measuring specific gravity, pH, creatinine levels, and temperature are determining "positive" and "negative" results - and attempts at cheating drug tests - more accurately than ever.

Lab tests today can often indicate that the sample is not from the donor. In a somewhat humorous case, a man substituted his sample with that of his wife. When the specimen failed the temperature test, subsequent lab testing indicated "he" was pregnant.

Adulterated samples will throw pH levels off or exhibit substances not normally found in urine. In cases where a definite positive or negative result cannot be determined, donors may be required to resubmit a sample under "direct observation" supervision. New lab testing methods now easily determine the presence of nitrites, such as the masking agents found in many products sold online and head shops.Once nitrites are detected, further testing removes the masking effect to discover which drugs are present. Laboratories are constantly updating testing methods as new adulterant products enter the market.

*At the Collection Site:*

While lab technology can now identify adulterated samples and other attempts at cheating drug tests, safeguards also exist at the urine specimen collection site, whether it's at a clinic or at the job-site.

Onsite specimen collections are the most effective way to catch would-be cheaters. Cheating drug tests has caused more and more companies to have a trained Drug Test Technician (DTT) visit their offices, warehouse, manufacturing plant, or other sites "onsite" and have the drug test urine specimen collections performed right there, where their employees are "on the job". A DTT considers a properly-performed drug test collection their top priority. This includes taking the special precautions necessary to ensure that the donor (employee) is not attempting to either substitute or adulterate their specimen.

In the case of "onsite" collections, the donor is routinely required to report immediately and directly to the Drug Test Technician (DTT) when notified of drug test. The donor is not permitted to "go the the locker room", "run down the hall", or "get something out of the car" (often-used ploys to enable a cheater to retrieve adulterants or substitutes) before seeing the DTT and providing their specimen.

*Getting Caught Cheating On A Drug Test:*

*Under U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT aka, "DOT) regulations, DOT- employees whose sample is determined to be tampered with are automatically reported as "positive" on their drug test and they must be immediately removed from their positions by their employer. Non-DOT employees are not subject to the same regulation, however, may still be released from their duties depending on the employer's company drug policy.*

This year, approximately 2,800,000 drug tests results will come back from the labs reported as "positive" for one or more drugs. A greater percentage of those this year than last year will be from cheaters who tried to "pass" and were not successful. Attempted cheaters will be caught during the specimen collection process or they will be discovered by the lab. As specimen collection procedures and lab analysis technology improves, it will be an even a greater percentage who are caught trying to beat a drug test next year and the next.

Bottom line: If it really is that important to you to get that job or keep that job, their is only two 100% effective ways to pass a drug test, simply: to be entirely drug-free or to fully detox the body naturally.

Removing marijuana from your system naturally is the only reasonable, honest, legal solution. We hope the information above has helped you understand why cheating on a drug test is a terrible idea and how difficult it has become recently to trick the system. We strongly urge you not to buy detox products from a head shop or shady online business with no accreditation. Don't waste your time, money, job or freedom on unproven drug cleansing products.

Article provided by the drug testing experts at Magic Detox. To learn more on how to pass a drug test naturally please visit www.magicdetox.com
_
There you go Fred. If you don't like it take it up with the folks at theweedblog. And DOT. A masking agent results in a tampered test which results in being removed from the job. Don't like it, too bad.


----------



## FredG

Defcon 5 said:


> I don't agree with half the things I have to do to continue employment...But on the flip side I don't have to work there...it's my choice...
> 
> Drug testing can be beat very easily...I have several friends that buy and have used synthetic urine...It works and they have passed many times...
> 
> As for the accident in Marks neck of the woods...If I was still in business that guy would have never been driving for me and quite possible not even running a shovel for me...The Landscape industry workforce is a low entry job that attracts low entry people...
> 
> I'm all for Background checks at employment...


Well said Defcon, This is the world we live in. And if my job was on the line I would not smoke either. When your in that truck and a incident occurs your done no time for any additives. No one test me accept for my GP and he knows the deal, he just got to have a clean test. He's not stupid he got to protect his butt.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> Well said Defcon, This is the world we live in. And if my job was on the line I would not smoke either. When your in that truck and a incident occurs your done no time for any additives. No one test me accept for my GP and he knows the deal, he just got to have a clean test. He's not stupid he got to protect his butt.


So you don't have a CDL?


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> https://www.theweedblog.com/plan-on-cheating-on-a-drug-test-for-weed-think-again-its-not-worth-it/
> _
> There are three primary ways to "try" to cheat a drug Test: Dilution, Substitution, and Adulteration.
> 
> How to cheat on a drug test for weed is a very common question and is googled over 10,000 times a day. Marijuana is more popular than ever and employers are also drug testing for marijuana more than ever. Millions of people each year need help passing a drug test for all kinds of different drugs, the most common being marijuana. Many people think the only way to pass a drug test is to cheat by using fake urine or sketchy cover-up products and drinks. We urge all our readers who need help passing a drug test to read this article and realize that you can pass a drug test for weed naturally without cheating by fully detoxing your body.
> 
> *How can a testing lab tell I cheated on my drug test for weed?*
> 
> *At the Laboratory:*
> 
> Labs have greatly improved their methods in detecting those specimens that have been tampered with by the donor.
> 
> Cheating on drug tests by "adulterating" urine samples, or altering a specimen by changing its concentration, is a common practice that marijuana users use to hide the presence of THC in their system. Previously, some abusers were able to pass a drug test by using one of these strategies. But new lab technologies are now detecting drugs in samples that were altered and un-testable before. Today, lab tests measuring specific gravity, pH, creatinine levels, and temperature are determining "positive" and "negative" results - and attempts at cheating drug tests - more accurately than ever.
> 
> Lab tests today can often indicate that the sample is not from the donor. In a somewhat humorous case, a man substituted his sample with that of his wife. When the specimen failed the temperature test, subsequent lab testing indicated "he" was pregnant.
> 
> Adulterated samples will throw pH levels off or exhibit substances not normally found in urine. In cases where a definite positive or negative result cannot be determined, donors may be required to resubmit a sample under "direct observation" supervision. New lab testing methods now easily determine the presence of nitrites, such as the masking agents found in many products sold online and head shops.Once nitrites are detected, further testing removes the masking effect to discover which drugs are present. Laboratories are constantly updating testing methods as new adulterant products enter the market.
> 
> *At the Collection Site:*
> 
> While lab technology can now identify adulterated samples and other attempts at cheating drug tests, safeguards also exist at the urine specimen collection site, whether it's at a clinic or at the job-site.
> 
> Onsite specimen collections are the most effective way to catch would-be cheaters. Cheating drug tests has caused more and more companies to have a trained Drug Test Technician (DTT) visit their offices, warehouse, manufacturing plant, or other sites "onsite" and have the drug test urine specimen collections performed right there, where their employees are "on the job". A DTT considers a properly-performed drug test collection their top priority. This includes taking the special precautions necessary to ensure that the donor (employee) is not attempting to either substitute or adulterate their specimen.
> 
> In the case of "onsite" collections, the donor is routinely required to report immediately and directly to the Drug Test Technician (DTT) when notified of drug test. The donor is not permitted to "go the the locker room", "run down the hall", or "get something out of the car" (often-used ploys to enable a cheater to retrieve adulterants or substitutes) before seeing the DTT and providing their specimen.
> 
> *Getting Caught Cheating On A Drug Test:*
> 
> *Under U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT aka, "DOT) regulations, DOT- employees whose sample is determined to be tampered with are automatically reported as "positive" on their drug test and they must be immediately removed from their positions by their employer. Non-DOT employees are not subject to the same regulation, however, may still be released from their duties depending on the employer's company drug policy.*
> 
> This year, approximately 2,800,000 drug tests results will come back from the labs reported as "positive" for one or more drugs. A greater percentage of those this year than last year will be from cheaters who tried to "pass" and were not successful. Attempted cheaters will be caught during the specimen collection process or they will be discovered by the lab. As specimen collection procedures and lab analysis technology improves, it will be an even a greater percentage who are caught trying to beat a drug test next year and the next.
> 
> Bottom line: If it really is that important to you to get that job or keep that job, their is only two 100% effective ways to pass a drug test, simply: to be entirely drug-free or to fully detox the body naturally.
> 
> Removing marijuana from your system naturally is the only reasonable, honest, legal solution. We hope the information above has helped you understand why cheating on a drug test is a terrible idea and how difficult it has become recently to trick the system. We strongly urge you not to buy detox products from a head shop or shady online business with no accreditation. Don't waste your time, money, job or freedom on unproven drug cleansing products.
> 
> Article provided by the drug testing experts at Magic Detox. To learn more on how to pass a drug test naturally please visit www.magicdetox.com
> _
> There you go Fred. If you don't like it take it up with the folks at theweedblog. And DOT. A masking agent results in a tampered test which results in being removed from the job. Don't like it, too bad.


You would buy into that BS, You are not telling me anything, I know how to beat a test from personal experience. Put up another link. No one is going to tell me what I know and have done. That includes you. Back Up


----------



## Mark Oomkes

I struggle with this as a business owner and a libertarian. Do or should I care what a person does on their own time? 

Yes and no. The problem is it can and does affect someone's judgement. Even if it is legal, doesn't mean my company won't be held liable for hiring someone that smokes weed and the SHTF. But, a person should be able to ingest a drug if they want. Even if I think it's stupid. 

The problem with comparing alcohol to pot is that one hit off a joint will affect your judgment. 1 beer won't. Legal or not. Whether you or I like it or not. It's a fact. And THC--whether it causes impairment or not--remains in one's system far longer than alcohol. 

Where the rubber meets the road is I'm not going to place MY company, MY reputation and MY customers in a position that is going to cause me problems. Legal or just public relationwise. Or my family. 

That means I have standards. And limits my ability to grow my business.


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> So you don't have a CDL?


No


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> You would buy into that BS, You are not telling me anything, I know how to beat a test from personal experience. Put up another link. No one is going to tell me what I know and have done. That includes you. Back Up


Listen Fred, that's coming from blogs that are run by weed supporters\users. I really couldn't give a crap what you think or say.

Like I've said in the past, supposedly weed makes someone more mellow, but not in your case.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> No


Do any of your employees?

Do you really know what you're talking about?


----------



## WIPensFan

Defcon 5 said:


> I don't agree with half the things I have to do to continue employment...But on the flip side I don't have to work there...it's my choice...
> 
> Drug testing can be beat very easily...I have several friends that buy and have used synthetic urine...It works and they have passed many times...
> 
> As for the accident in Marks neck of the woods...If I was still in business that guy would have never been driving for me and quite possible not even running a shovel for me...The Landscape industry workforce is a low entry job that attracts low entry people...
> 
> I'm all for Background checks at employment...


Hey, are you calling me a low entry person?? Or just Oomkes?!?:clapping:


----------



## Mark Oomkes

WIPensFan said:


> Hey, are you calling me a low entry person?? Or just Oomkes?!?:clapping:


If he's calling me low entry, that's a HUGE step up from what he usually calls me.


----------



## Defcon 5

WIPensFan said:


> Hey, are you calling me a low entry person?? Or just Oomkes?!?:clapping:


Yes and Yes


----------



## WIPensFan

Mark Oomkes said:


> If he's calling me low entry, that's a HUGE step up from what he usually calls me.


:laugh:...Damn people, always degrading us landscapers.


----------



## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> Like I've said in the past, supposedly weed makes someone more mellow, but not in your case.


Things have changed, there a hybrids oot there that have different effects ranging from being glued to the couch to having a slight calming affect that allows you focus in mulch more depth.
Hit a weed dispensary web site, you'll get a lick oot the names and descriptions they come up.


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Do any of your employees?
> 
> Do you really know what you're talking about?


If you must know I had to give my cdl up because of some new medication, And yes I do have a cdl driver, He is 69yrs old and does not participate in recreational drugs. He is on high blood pressure meds this is why he has a physical annually.

Yes I think I know what I'm talking about, Do You? Not for nothing I see more agreeing with me. LOL I'm not mello and you know it, Always trying to stir the pot, Man. Do you insist on trying to get me going. Do you actually think you can tell me if I don't like it too bad and get away with it. Never happen while I'm breathing.


----------



## ktfbgb

Mark Oomkes said:


> I struggle with this as a business owner and a libertarian. Do or should I care what a person does on their own time?


This is my struggle as well. All the comments from everyone, for me personally, are helpful. I have realized that being a Libertarian/Constitutionalist, it becomes difficult to seperate those values between politics and my company. What I have finally realized is that I have to do what is necessary to protect myself, my company, and my family. And that requiring background checks and drug testing for accidents doesn't go against my core values because employees/potential employees are not being coerced to work for me, and may choose not too work for me. In order to implement these policies, the person has to choose to accept the terms of employment upon their own free will, and are not being forced to do so. Which in the end is what Libertarians ultimately believe. That an individual should be able to make any decision they choose, as long it doesn't negatively affect someone else. I can maintain my principals and beliefs, while at the same time having stricter hiring and employment procedures, because ultimately that person agreed to it under their own accord.

It took a while for me to figure this separation out. But I eventually got there lol.

I understand the arguments about ways to cheat the tests, and personal privacy. Ultimately if someone want to cheat bad enough they may find a new way to circumvent the tests. Happens all the time, something new comes, they figure a way around it, then something comes around to Cheat the new procedure. But, at least as the business owner I can say I have a policy in place, and we followed the policy. Liability for Negligent hiring practices would be if I didn't have a company policy addressing it, not the fact that an employee figured out the newest way to defeat the test. We made a good faith effort to provide a safe working environment for the employee and customer.

As a Libertarian it is true that I don't care what you ingest on your own time, in your own house, as long as it doesn't negatively affect someone else. In this case it would be a true statement that if you ingested a regulated substance in the privacy of your own home I could care less. Until I call 1 hour later for you to come start your shovel route. Then I do care because it negatively affected me, or has the potential too.


----------



## FredG

Did any of you guys listen to sno, Defcon, Dirtbiker etc. We don't have to like it, We can agree or disagree, We all want to protect are assets and provide for are Family's, This is the way it is, Do whatever you think you need to do, Again we are all in a business that attracts these type of people.

Anything under $40k per yr these are the kind you get, Your not always going to get the goody two shoes that will handle a ninety pound jackhammer or wheel barrel loads of concrete all day long and has a good driving record. They work like mules all day long and want to play when there done. 

This is getting way blown up, Make sure your insured correctly and hope for the best. Any preventive stuff you do is not a guarantee. I know guys that been doing this for 40yrs. No issues like accidents, work related injury's they do fine. I would rather have a guy that smokes a little weed than some loud mouth running his lips, This I will not tolerate. Keep your mind on the job and keep your lips shut. Run your lips on my job I will personally get your pay and run you off,


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Don't like the competition Fred?


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Don't like the competition Fred?


I'm fine Mark, LOL


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> Things have changed, there a hybrids oot there that have different effects ranging from being glued to the couch to having a slight calming affect that allows you focus in mulch more depth.
> Hit a weed dispensary web site, you'll get a lick oot the names and descriptions they come up.


That medical stuff is to strong, You know the cancer victims. That **** will knock a moose down at 50yrds. LOL


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Don't like the competition Fred?


If your referring to the loud mouth thing, Just get tired of breaking up fights. LOL


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> Did any of you guys listen to sno, Defcon, Dirtbiker etc. We don't have to like it, We can agree or disagree, We all want to protect are assets and provide for are Family's, This is the way it is, Do whatever you think you need to do, Again we are all in a business that attracts these type of people.
> 
> Anything under $40k per yr these are the kind you get, Your not always going to get the goody two shoes that will handle a ninety pound jackhammer or wheel barrel loads of concrete all day long and has a good driving record. They work like mules all day long and want to play when there done.
> 
> This is getting way blown up, Make sure your insured correctly and hope for the best. Any preventive stuff you do is not a guarantee. I know guys that been doing this for 40yrs. No issues like accidents, work related injury's they do fine. I would rather have a guy that smokes a little weed than some loud mouth running his lips, This I will not tolerate. Keep your mind on the job and keep your lips shut. Run your lips on my job I will personally get your pay and run you off,


I did. I listened to what everyone had to say, and appreciate all of it. And it all has helped me think about the policies I will be writing, and implementing in the near future. I knew there would be a lot of different views on the subject and people would disagree. That was the point. I wanted to hear as much as possible to help with my process. That way I didn't start out in one direction, say oops need to change that, now what do I do with this guy who falls outside of the policy because I changed the goal post after hiring him. It was all constructive in my eyes and will help me get this implemented while I have a clear slate, so that it can apply to everyone fairly, I hate that word, before I hire for the busy season soon.Thumbs Up


----------



## FredG

I wasn't singling you out bro. You are use to a different element of people from your former profession. The good guys, Unfortunately the element of people in Construction are quite different, I seen a few guys get picked up right on the job, Just a quick look on the computer for priors not a back ground check they do here all the time if you got a cop in the family or friend. I think most back ground checks are done by the FBI and require signatures, Just like if you have a job at a prison, Criminals been picked up just by running a plates.


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## flips87chevy

Mark Oomkes said:


> one hit off a joint will affect your judgment.. .


. I gotta get me one of these joints lol.


----------



## FredG

flips87chevy said:


> . I gotta get me one of these joints lol.


I was in my 50's before I had a joint, I think it improved me, LOL


----------



## FredG

FredG said:


> I was in my 50's before I had a joint, I think it improved me, LOL


Did you score the spreader?


----------



## flips87chevy

FredG said:


> Did you score the spreader?


Yes. $800 for a smith 8' series 2. The drag chain and controller are missing but the electric motor runs and everything turns freely with a pipe wrench. I've contacted my closest dealer ( about an hour away) to get the controller and drag chain and all the pillow block bearings just in case.


----------



## BUFF

FredG said:


> I was in my 50's before I had a joint, I think it improved me, LOL


Well yeah....... you're stoned and subjective / poor judgment....


----------



## SnoFarmer

BUFF said:


> Well yeah....... you're stoned and subjective / poor judgment....


From my experience( and from what I can tell you're experienced) that judgement is related to maturity and or experience ..
Being high doesn't change that.
if someone says it does its because of immaturity.
thus why the age is 21 for drinking and drug'en.


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> Well yeah....... you're stoned and subjective / poor judgment....


I know you drink in your vehicle, You have stated this. This is definitely poor judgement.  :hammerhead:


----------



## FredG

flips87chevy said:


> Yes. $800 for a smith 8' series 2. The drag chain and controller are missing but the electric motor runs and everything turns freely with a pipe wrench. I've contacted my closest dealer ( about an hour away) to get the controller and drag chain and all the pillow block bearings just in case.


Good for you, Sounds like a great deal.


----------



## SnoFarmer

FredG said:


> I know you drink in your vehicle, You have stated this. This is definitely poor judgement.  :hammerhead:


----------



## FredG

SnoFarmer said:


>


Ya whatever, Everybody wants to bash pot, The worst drug alcohol on the planet is okay because it is legal. O I forgot all the deaths alcohol causes not to mention all the guys in jail and can't support there self or Family's and can't get a decent job. Serous of liver and collapsed kidneys, Typical double standard.


----------



## SnoFarmer

I was just enjoying some 
while I waited peacefully for buff to respond.

ps, i'm pro green...
alcohol is more if a hinder/ issue than the green is.

pss the person who influenced me at a young and imperishable age to have a few while on a road trip was from
MI...but i grew out of it....


----------



## BUFF

SnoFarmer said:


> From my experience( and from what I can tell you're experienced) that judgement is related to maturity and or experience ..
> Being high doesn't change that.
> if someone says it does its because of immaturity.
> thus why the age is 21 for drinking and drug'en.


I will agree maturity and experience weighs into an individuals judgment. Unfortunately this is also tied to common sense too, some folks have it and others don't. From what I've seen in the younger generation this is becoming less and less. I attribute this to technology that is at our finger tips and the vehicles that are used.
If you were to take two utes the same age, same IQ's but one is from the city or suburbs and the other was from a rural area. You'd see a big difference in their ability to make the right choice and problem solving.



FredG said:


> I know you drink in your vehicle, You have stated this. This is definitely poor judgement.  :hammerhead:


I do have road soda's I can't argue that and sure many others on here do the same. When I do it's on long trips, I have one an hour, typically a PBR or Bud Light and I'm not in congested areas. The only law I'm breaking is an open container which that came into effect in '05 in Colorado and it carry's a $50.00 fine. In Wyoming it's legal for a passenger to drink alcohol as long as the driving isn't drinking/drunk.

People's body's also metabolize the things we put in them differently. Some say "training" allows for more consumption however it's the bodies chemistry that does.


----------



## FredG

SnoFarmer said:


> I was just enjoying some
> while I waited peacefully for buff to respond.
> 
> ps, i'm pro green...
> alcohol is more if a hinder/ issue than the green is.
> 
> pss the person who influenced me at a young and imperishable age to have a few while on a road trip was from
> MI...


MY bad. LOL


----------



## SnoFarmer

I agree, not everyone is equipped to handle alcohol or drugs at any age.







Rural kids lack street smarts but are more honest.
rural kids just have fewer folks around to catch them when they make poor decisions.


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> I will agree maturity and experience weighs into an individuals judgment. Unfortunately this is also tied to common sense too, some folks have it and others don't. From what I've seen in the younger generation this is becoming less and less. I attribute this to technology that is at our finger tips and the vehicles that are used.
> If you were to take two utes the same age, same IQ's but one is from the city or suburbs and the other was from a rural area. You'd see a big difference in their ability to make the right choice and problem solving.
> 
> I do have road soda's I can't argue that and sure many others on here do the same. When I do it's on long trips, I have one an hour, typically a PBR or Bud Light and I'm not in congested areas. The only law I'm breaking is an open container which that came into effect in '05 in Colorado and it carry's a $50.00 fine. In Wyoming it's legal for a passenger to drink alcohol as long as the driving isn't drinking/drunk.
> 
> People's body's also metabolize the things we put in them differently. Some say "training" allows for more consumption however it's the bodies chemistry that does.


Honestly I see nothing wrong with a beer or a joint. I don't do either in my trucks, Not to say I never have. LOL The laws here the consequences will actually scare you when it comes to road sodas. I lost a lot of good friend because of alcohol, If not to death they are doing time. I don't have these issue with my people with weed. I know guys that are staggering from 3 road sodas. I also know ones that drink 12 and would not know they had any. Like me lol. Some of my people would like to smoke some weed, They will be asleep after a couple of hits but accept this and just stick with alcohol.


----------



## BUFF

SnoFarmer said:


> I agree, not everyone is equipped to handle alcohol or drugs at any age.
> 
> Rural kids lack street smarts but are more honest.
> rural kids just have fewer folks around to catch them when they make poor decisions.


Rural utes do lack the street smarts city/suburban kids have, it can be debated the learning curve needed for a rural ute to acquire them.
Yes there's less eyes to see a rural ute make a poor decision and they do happen. The lessons learned from mistakes are invaluable and you should remember those lessons throughout your life if you have common sense.


----------



## SnoFarmer

Agree.


----------



## SnoFarmer

http://www.drunkard.com/12-02-rules-of-the-road/


----------



## BUFF

FredG said:


> Honestly I see nothing wrong with a beer or a joint. I don't do either in my trucks, Not to say I never have. LOL The laws here the consequences will actually scare you when it comes to road sodas. I lost a lot of good friend because of alcohol, If not to death they are doing time. I don't have these issue with my people with weed. I know guys that are staggering from 3 road sodas. I also know ones that drink 12 and would not know they had any. Like me lol. Some of my people would like to smoke some weed, They will be asleep after a couple of hits but accept this and just stick with alcohol.


 You seem to be getting way oof into left field...... What a person does on their own time is there own business. If what the do on their own time affects them at work it becomes the employers business.
If a business has a drug and alcohol policy in the company handbook along with a safety committee they see a reduction in their insurance policy premiums.


----------



## FredG

SnoFarmer said:


> I agree, not everyone is equipped to handle alcohol or drugs at any age.
> 
> Rural kids lack street smarts but are more honest.
> rural kids just have fewer folks around to catch them when they make poor decisions.


I agree with this, This is why we would let the kids party at the house. They respect it more and know they don't need to hide. And they did not drive.

That's better than having them hide and drive, Kids learn to abuse if they have to hide all the time. It worked for me anyways. They don't drink and drive nor abuse real bad.


----------



## BUFF

SnoFarmer said:


> View attachment 169811
> 
> http://www.drunkard.com/12-02-rules-of-the-road/


Id have to say Nick the plumber appears to be s seasoned road tripper....


----------



## SnoFarmer

Ho, Ya, my manners, 
Thank you Todd, for the subscription to Modern Drunkard


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> You seem to be getting way oof into left field...... What a person does on their own time is there own business. If what the do on their own time affects them at work it becomes the employers business.
> If a business has a drug and alcohol policy in the company handbook along with a safety committee they see a reduction in their insurance policy premiums.


No I'm not in left field. We been over the own time thing, Your company policies don't mean they will follow them. Some of the biggest Construction company's don't test I mean top 10 in the state been over seas doing work. Some would rather pay the extra premium than loose all there men that been with them forever, I know a Contractor that showed me on paper that the fines for not paying there employee's insurance are less expensive than the premiums.


----------



## SnoFarmer

When I worked at a major western resort they implemented a drug policy with random testing,
And you had to go see the nurse and pee to keep your job.
They lost ( some walked away from their jobs over principle and some becuse they didn't want a positive test result on their record) a lot of their top employes all the way down to new hires .

2 years latter they repealed it to, pee at hire, or when somone gets hurt.
Folks who don't have a proublem with drugs can easely stay clean for a month to get a job.


----------



## FredG

SnoFarmer said:


> When I worked at a major western resort they implemented a drug policy with random testing,
> And you had to go see the nurse and pee to keep your job.
> They lost a lot of their top employes all the way down to new hires .
> 
> 2 years latter they repealed it to, pee at hire, or when somone gets hurt.
> Folks who don't have a proublem with drugs can easely stay clean for a month to get a job.


Very good, If your employing 50 to a hundred guys it is very hard to maintain a bunch of goody to shoes at least in construction or similar. My Wife is a RN at a big GP, Was tested at hire and never tested again in the 15yrs she been there. She's not like me she has nothing to hide. Before that she was in the ER same thing. She has worked with RN that been busted for stealing patents Vicodin. They send them to some kind of class in Rochester and bring them back. It takes about 6 months to complete the class. Some complete some don't. FWIW 30 days is a piece of cake to most.


----------



## ktfbgb

SnoFarmer said:


> 2 years latter they repealed it to, pee at hire, or when somone gets hurt.
> Folks who don't have a proublem with drugs can easely stay clean for a month to get a job.


This is what I will be doing for my company. No random Testing. If they can be clean long enough to get a job, presumably they are responsible with whatever they are doing on their own time, and hopefully that would carry over to not having to use while on duty. It will discourage the junkies from ever applying, and will cover me liability wise.


----------



## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> This is what I will be doing for my company. No random Testing. If they can be clean long enough to get a job, presumably they are responsible with whatever they are doing on their own time, and hopefully that would carry over to not having to use while on duty. It will discourage the junkies from ever applying, and will cover me liability wise.


Now you got it, You can only cover your butt, You can't do it yourself and your in a position where you have to hire ghosts. Thumbs Up


----------



## BUFF

SnoFarmer said:


> Pee at hire, or when somone gets hurt.
> Folks who don't have a proublem with drugs can easely stay clean for a month to get a job.


When you were at the resort I'm pretty sure several of my buddies were going to Western State which is also known as Wasted State. Who knows you and I could have crosses paths in the early 80's.....

Pee to Hire and Blow and Pee if drug or alcohol for a on the job accident.



FredG said:


> No I'm not in left field. We been over the own time thing, Your company policies don't mean they will follow them. Some of the biggest Construction company's don't test I mean top 10 in the state been over seas doing work. Some would rather pay the extra premium than loose all there men that been with them forever, I know a Contractor that showed me on paper that the fines for not paying there employee's insurance are less expensive than the premiums.


Company policy is pee to hire after hired if there's an accident pee and blow. Now depending on how the policy is written the employer can forgo the pee/blow if the employee isn't displaying signs of being under the influence.
Either way you spin it this reduces insurance premiums and promotes safety, both are in the employers favor.

I have several employees that smoke on there own time, I've seen them at BBQ's and been offered to join in. They know the policy and respect it, they also know my stance on it and respect it by not bring their oof the clock habits to work.

How to test for being under the influence of weed was something Colo had to get up to speed on quickly when it became legal. Mulch like alcohol there are "legal" limits in Colo, however in the eyes of the Fed's any use is illegal.

https://www.codot.gov/safety/alcohol-and-impaired-driving/druggeddriving/marijuana-and-driving

I even had a guy get a DUI on his way into work. He was a heavy drinker on several occasions he was given a ride home when he showed up. Most days he came in hungover and you could smell alcohol sweating oot of his body. This guys was very talented and did great work however alcohol took over his life, work suffered which lead to me getting in his face and he quit before he was fired.
BTW I've know this guys since 10th grade and we were pretty good friends too.


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> Now you got it, You can only cover your butt, You can't do it yourself and your in a position where you have to hire ghosts. Thumbs Up


Maybe instead of doing all this hard work, I should just start a trade school so I can just talk to people about working hard ROFL. Seriously though we are going to be in serious trouble soon with the lack of skilled workers across the country. It's hard now, but I don't know what we are going to do 5-10 years from now. I don't know what the answer is, it would have to be a multi directional approach I'm sure, to fix the skilled trade labor pool shortage.

The city just approved a new subdivision here. 1,300 new houses going in in that one. There is another one underway right now with 200 houses. All the contractors building anything right now are mostly from Phoenix or a lot of them are out of state contractors. There isn't going to be anyone to build any of this stuff. My new license I'm in process of getting includes my structural framing license. So, guess who's going to be putting a framing crew together? Not exactly something I was planning on doing since there is plenty of money in remodeling, but the market is crying out for it, so I might as well.


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> When you were at the resort I'm pretty sure several of my buddies were going to Western State which is also known as Wasted State. Who knows you and I could have crosses paths in the early 80's.....
> 
> Pee to Hire and Blow and Pee if drug or alcohol for a on the job accident.
> 
> Company policy is pee to hire after hired if there's an accident pee and blow. Now depending on how the policy is written the employer can forgo the pee/blow if the employee isn't displaying signs of being under the influence.
> Either way you spin it this reduces insurance premiums and promotes safety, both are in the employers favor.
> 
> I have several employees that smoke on there own time, I've seen them at BBQ's and been offered to join in. They know the policy and respect it, they also know my stance on it and respect it by not bring their oof the clock habits to work.
> 
> How to test for being under the influence of weed was something Colo had to get up to speed on quickly when it became legal. Mulch like alcohol there are "legal" limits in Colo, however in the eyes of the Fed's any use is illegal.
> 
> https://www.codot.gov/safety/alcohol-and-impaired-driving/druggeddriving/marijuana-and-driving
> 
> I even had a guy get a DUI on his way into work. He was a heavy drinker on several occasions he was given a ride home when he showed up. Most days he came in hungover and you could smell alcohol sweating oot of his body. This guys was very talented and did great work however alcohol took over his life, work suffered which lead to me getting in his face and he quit before he was fired.
> BTW I've know this guys since 10th grade and we were pretty good friends too.


Exactly, Friends could be your biggest struggle with this. Family is worse. They think the rules don't apply to them.


----------



## BUFF

FredG said:


> No I'm not in left field. We been over the own time thing, Your company policies don't mean they will follow them. Some of the biggest Construction company's don't test I mean top 10 in the state been over seas doing work. Some would rather pay the extra premium than loose all there men that been with them forever, I know a Contractor that showed me on paper that the fines for not paying there employee's insurance are less expensive than the premiums.





FredG said:


> Now you got it, You can only cover your butt, You can't do it yourself and your in a position where you have to hire ghosts. Thumbs Up


So I'm not intentionally setting oot to be a wanker but in the 30 or so minutes of these two post it seems you've changed your stance.


----------



## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> Maybe instead of doing all this hard work, I should just start a trade school so I can just talk to people about working hard ROFL. Seriously though we are going to be in serious trouble soon with the lack of skilled workers across the country. It's hard now, but I don't know what we are going to do 5-10 years from now. I don't know what the answer is, it would have to be a multi directional approach I'm sure, to fix the skilled trade labor pool shortage.
> 
> The city just approved a new subdivision here. 1,300 new houses going in in that one. There is another one underway right now with 200 houses. All the contractors building anything right now are mostly from Phoenix or a lot of them are out of state contractors. There isn't going to be anyone to build any of this stuff. My new license I'm in process of getting includes my structural framing license. So, guess who's going to be putting a framing crew together? Not exactly something I was planning on doing since there is plenty of money in remodeling, but the market is crying out for it, so I might as well.


I hope I'm gone before it starts affecting our pensions. You can't keep paying out if the workforce is not paying in. I would be looking to get on something in that subdivision, Maybe you can get in on some of the concrete too. This is private probably would not need a performance bond. You could have a home for years.


----------



## SnoFarmer

Wasted state in Gunnyrock CO.
Where you can ski and earn a degree in your spare time.


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> So I'm not intentionally setting oot to be a wanker but in the 30 or so minutes of these two post it seems you've changed your stance.


No problem, Explain how.


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> I hope I'm gone before it starts affecting our pensions. You can't keep paying out if the workforce is not paying in. I would be looking to get on something in that subdivision, Maybe you can get in on some of the concrete too. This is private probably would not need a performance bond. You could have a home for years.


That's what I'm thinking. With my license I'm getting I could basically do the entire house peace meal. It's just not a general license, so I could do framing, then siding and ext trim package, then interior finish work for the General, and not have to hassle with dealing with the subs for trade work. It might work out pretty good for me actually.

I get several calls per year for this, and I'm sure they will increase. As of now I've turned them down because I was too busy or whatever. Want to be ready for it this year. I even got a call a few months ago froma general out of Phoenix who was building a custom 4,000 square foot home up here. Couldn't find anyone to frame, or do siding. I told him my license didn't cover me for a project that size. He said he didn't care, he would pay me cost plus to do it under his license. He would do takeoff, provide lumber package, take care of inspections etc. said just charge him for the hours and add my 20% onto it. I still declined just because I didn't have the manpower for it. But that's how desperate it's getting up here.


----------



## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> That's what I'm thinking. With my license I'm getting I could basically do the entire house peace meal. It's just not a general license, so I could do framing, then siding and ext trim package, then interior finish work for the General, and not have to hassle with dealing with the subs for trade work. It might work out pretty good for me actually.
> 
> I get several calls per year for this, and I'm sure they will increase. As of now I've turned them down because I was too busy or whatever. Want to be ready for it this year. I even got a call a few months ago froma general out of Phoenix who was building a custom 4,000 square foot home up here. Couldn't find anyone to frame, or do siding. I told him my license didn't cover me for a project that size. He said he didn't care, he would pay me cost plus to do it under his license. He would do takeoff, provide lumber package, take care of inspections etc. said just charge him for the hours and add my 20% onto it. I still declined just because I didn't have the manpower for it. But that's how desperate it's getting up here.


Well if your not set up with the manpower and passing is better than trying to take it on and not being able to complete in a reasonable amount of time. You don't need that associated with your name. Go slow your doing alright.


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> Well if your not set up with the manpower and passing is better than trying to take it on and not being able to complete in a reasonable amount of time. You don't need that associated with your name. Go slow your doing alright.


For sure. I didn't want to tarnish my reputation so I declined it. Somehow I keep getting call from people in Phoenix talking about my reputation and wanting to use me. Like from architects and generals. They are 115 miles away and still hear about me. I actually just got a job from a general in Vegas to do the demo phase on the university book store based on word of mouth. How the hell does that happen lol? Anyway framing a house isn't a scary thing for me, just need to have the man power and talent ready to go first.


----------



## BUFF

FredG said:


> No problem, Explain how.


Went from screening is a way to lose good labor along with paying the extra premium is worth it to you have to protect yourself as an employer.


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> Went from screening is a way to lose good labor along with paying the extra premium is worth it to you have to protect yourself as an employer.


Exactly, Screening is a way to lose good labor, Exactly again you will receive a discount if you are screening. Most would rather pay the extra for not than lose there crew. I don't see anything changing in my threads. I think your confused or possibly trying to stir the pot. Peace out.


----------



## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> For sure. I didn't want to tarnish my reputation so I declined it. Somehow I keep getting call from people in Phoenix talking about my reputation and wanting to use me. Like from architects and generals. They are 115 miles away and still hear about me. I actually just got a job from a general in Vegas to do the demo phase on the university book store based on word of mouth. How the hell does that happen lol? Anyway framing a house isn't a scary thing for me, just need to have the man power and talent ready to go first.


 It's very possible the guy in Vegas has friends - connections in Phoenix.


----------



## BUFF

FredG said:


> Exactly, Screening is a way to lose good labor, Exactly again you will receive a discount if you are screening. Most would rather pay the extra for not than lose there crew. I don't see anything changing in my threads. I think your confused or possibly trying to stir the pot. Peace out.


 Tell you what...... if you can't see what I'm referring to then so be it.
I'm pretty very open minded when it comes to cutting loose on you're own time, if I wasn't I'd be a hypocrite since at one time I did a lot of recreational things. Heck my daughter changed jobs in the fall, she was at a HVAC contractor as a welder in the fab shop and went to a Engineering position and had to take a whizz quiz in a pre employment physical. I know she smokes along with drinks (she'll be 20 in March), I gave her advice in how to study for the test starting off with stop smoking / eating consumables. I also told her if she gets hurt while on the job to expect to be tested. I know plenty of people in the trades, most save cutting loose for the weekend and understand the risk they take by occasionally smoking weed or eating shrooms and get tested. Then there's the other guys that wake and bake, have a couple beers at lunch then smoke half a blunt and they top the day oof with going to the bar or home to get hammered. The latter of the two seem to have more self induced drama/BS to deal with that does eventually affect work while the guy that cuts loose on the weekends doesn't. As an employer and employee I would mulch rather have a guy that was on top of his game everyday during the work week. 
I take my guys oot for beers a couple times a month, it's my way of saying thanks for what they do and it's also a great way to build a team. Even though it's a open tab they don't take advantage of it, I'll order food and also taken a few home or paid for a cab/uber ride home too. I even take those who have gone above and beyond P-Dog shooting at my uncles place. Talk aboot a motivational tool to get guys to work and look oot for the benefit of the company.


----------



## FredG

BUFF said:


> Tell you what...... if you can't see what I'm referring to then so be it.
> I'm pretty very open minded when it comes to cutting loose on you're own time, if I wasn't I'd be a hypocrite since at one time I did a lot of recreational things. Heck my daughter changed jobs in the fall, she was at a HVAC contractor as a welder in the fab shop and went to a Engineering position and had to take a whizz quiz in a pre employment physical. I know she smokes along with drinks (she'll be 20 in March), I gave her advice in how to study for the test starting off with stop smoking / eating consumables. I also told her if she gets hurt while on the job to expect to be tested. I know plenty of people in the trades, most save cutting loose for the weekend and understand the risk they take by occasionally smoking weed or eating shrooms and get tested. Then there's the other guys that wake and bake, have a couple beers at lunch then smoke half a blunt and they top the day oof with going to the bar or home to get hammered. The latter of the two seem to have more self induced drama/BS to deal with that does eventually affect work while the guy that cuts loose on the weekends doesn't. As an employer and employee I would mulch rather have a guy that was on top of his game everyday during the work week.
> I take my guys oot for beers a couple times a month, it's my way of saying thanks for what they do and it's also a great way to build a team. Even though it's a open tab they don't take advantage of it, I'll order food and also taken a few home or paid for a cab/uber ride home too. I even take those who have gone above and beyond P-Dog shooting at my uncles place. Talk aboot a motivational tool to get guys to work and look oot for the benefit of the company.


Well said, It's your company and you can hire who you wish. In the event of a injury they can not come back on the contractor if a guy test positive. As said in the upper threads a guy could be a cocaine user and would not test positive. I refuse to bash a weed smoker and for sure rather have him on my team than a alcohol drinker. It don't matter what drug of choice including alcohol, If your abusing it you could have drama. I don't do the Christmas party's etc. anymore because they all get gooned up and drive home. If they want to participate at the tavern after work they can drive there own vehicle and buy there own drinks. I don't contribute to weed or alcohol with any of my guys.

I don't motivate anybody, You either have a good work ethic or you don't. If you can't handle the job it's time to move on, I got news for all of you. Your loud mouth ball buster is your biggest danger on any job. Again keep your mind on the job and keep your lips shut. I seen to many fights and incidents happen from some loud mouth joker. They are all warned about this at hire and it will only take one time and you will be personally fired by me if you run them lips along with the riot act.


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## FredG

I see and understand what your saying, I just don't agree with it, You got your believes and I have mine. This happens all the time.


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## BUFF

FredG said:


> Your loud mouth ball buster is your biggest danger on any job.


Fortunately this guy is me....... It's good to be King!!!!!! :laugh::laugh:


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## FredG

BUFF said:


> Fortunately this guy is me....... It's good to be King!!!!!! :laugh::laugh:


LOL That's different.  That don't count when your King, This apply s only to GRUNTS


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> Maybe instead of doing all this hard work, I should just start a trade school so I can just talk to people about working hard ROFL. Seriously though we are going to be in serious trouble soon with the lack of skilled workers across the country. It's hard now, but I don't know what we are going to do 5-10 years from now. I don't know what the answer is, it would have to be a multi directional approach I'm sure, to fix the skilled trade labor pool shortage.
> 
> The city just approved a new subdivision here. 1,300 new houses going in in that one. There is another one underway right now with 200 houses. All the contractors building anything right now are mostly from Phoenix or a lot of them are out of state contractors. There isn't going to be anyone to build any of this stuff. My new license I'm in process of getting includes my structural framing license. So, guess who's going to be putting a framing crew together? Not exactly something I was planning on doing since there is plenty of money in remodeling, but the market is crying out for it, so I might as well.


On this new 1,300 new project who has all land clearing, Excavation, Water lines, Sanity etc. all the utility's. You can make some coin doing this. Do you have a quarry around where you can get stone, sand etc. Is it common for gas or are most electric. You only need a couple guys to do all the utility work. You could rent a small excavator. You find a guy that been on a excavator long enough he will know what to do. You only need a grunt with him checking grades and locating mostly till the pipe goes in. This work is rather simple you just got to follow spec. Just something to think about with the labor shortage.

Tomorrow I can PM you with some sq ft pricing and hourly on machines, Labor, I could send you material pricing to, Not sure any of this will compare, It will still give you the basics.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> On this new 1,300 new project who has all land clearing, Excavation, Water lines, Sanity etc. all the utility's. You can make some coin doing this. Do you have a quarry around where you can get stone, sand etc. Is it common for gas or are most electric. You only need a couple guys to do all the utility work. You could rent a small excavator. You find a guy that been on a excavator long enough he will know what to do. You only need a grunt with him checking grades and locating mostly till the pipe goes in. This work is rather simple you just got to follow spec. Just something to think about with the labor shortage.
> 
> Tomorrow I can PM you with some sq ft pricing and hourly on machines, Labor, I could send you material pricing to, Not sure any of this will compare, It will still give you the basics.


Heck ya, Ill look at anything you want to send me. I have friends with skid steers, back hoes, and Mini excavators. I would need to see if I could make money just subbing them with their own equipment, vs. renting and paying operators and spotters. I never pass up an opportunity, Ill always at least look at it and consider it to see if its something I would want to do. Thumbs Up

About the only local quarry rock would be cinders. Have a lot of those around here. Everything else is brought in. There are a couple crushers around though. not sure if they are local, or brought in from somewhere else. But there is gonna be a lot of rock that comes out of the ground on that particular site. Most likely gonna need to run a rock hammer for a lot of it.


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## Defcon 5

This thread has turned into who's a bigger Blowhard thread....A solid 4 of you are in the running....Thumbs Up


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## Mike_PS

if we can get back on course we can leave it, if not we can close it out

thanks


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> This thread has turned into who's a bigger Blowhard thread....A solid 4 of you are in the running....Thumbs Up


Good thing I'm not one of them.


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Good thing I'm not one of them.


For once in your life you are not....


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## ktfbgb

Michael J. Donovan said:


> if we can get back on course we can leave it, if not we can close it out
> 
> thanks


As long as no one breaks any of your rules I don't really care what direction the thread takes if that matters.


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> As long as no one breaks any of your rules I don't really care what direction the thread takes if that matters.


I don't think it was directed at you. lol


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## Defcon 5

ktfbgb said:


> As long as no one breaks any of your rules I don't really care what direction the thread takes if that matters.


No one really cares what you think or what matters...Although you will probably give some long winded answer to why it does...


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## ktfbgb

Defcon 5 said:


> No one really cares what you think or what matters...Although you will probably give some long winded answer to why it does...


It's my thread. That's why. Short enough?


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## ktfbgb

Defcon 5 said:


> No one really cares what you think or what matters...Although you will probably give some long winded answer to why it does...


Also, sorry if it's too hard for you to follow along on the long winded answers. I guess I could start doing two? One dumbed down to one sentence for ya? And then a coherent, complete answer for everyone else that is able to understand more than a basic, single sentence, answer using more than single syllable words?


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## Mike_PS

Ok, with the last few comments posted, I see that I can wrap this one up

thanks


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