# $25,000 for This - see pic



## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

I am grateful for the call and the opportunity.....

This is a seasonal, offered at $25,000

It is about 11.5 acres, average snowfall is 30" which is about 8 plowings and 12 saltings (on a good average year)

I was thinking a lot more, but I am welcome for your negative comments since I feel like I price things high.

Shopping center, food store gas station, Hospital Dr Office, Dollar stores, strip mall, etc. Lots of islands,shopping carts etc.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I would walk not enough money


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Sorry is that salt included if so walk 
If salt is extra I would consider


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## abbe (Sep 8, 2009)

Seems low even with your low average snow. That is a lot of pavement to be responsible for. Renting a loader for the season? Sub contracting a piece of heavy equipment in there?


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

Salt Included, bulk and sidewalk, although not many sidewalks, as they are covered by the building canopy


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Unless you are light on plowing seems like a lot if work 
If you can Handel it with and need it go for it but I say pass
I would be closer to $40 in my area


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Look at it this way 
8 plows at $2000 each is $16,000. sounds like plenty. That leaves $9000. for 12 salts and I am thinking 8 of the salts will be done while your out plowing. Those numbers look good to me, the question is do have the extra equipment to use or have to rent.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Add up salt cost this year and calcium for walks 
Time to go back after cars are gone don't think for the time it will take with the machinery it sounds at low end


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## mike6256 (Dec 15, 2007)

I looked at this last year and walked. Little to low for me but I like you seem to price little higher.... If you take it I may have one truck for you.


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

I already told the customer Id pass, even before I posted this thread. He did ask where I would be, honestly double would be better maybe 40K, its an aggravating lot for sure. I didn't respond with a counter offer yet

I have the extra backhoe and skid steer(at a low seasonal cost to rent), but wheel loader I do not

Hes really trying to sell me "on a low snowfall season"

If its any consolation, I passed on a 3.3 acre Weis market for a $16,000 seasonal, partially because it was too far away


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

We all know some one will take it at that price 
Sounds like you have a Good name and rep 
Stick to the people who are willing to pay for it not just hire you and drop you next year when some will do it for less 
I only sign 3-5 year contracts maybe if you can get him up some and sign a long term contract maybe then you could consider it 
If you do put limits on salt and snow per push so worst case you can break even but not loose


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

That's not bad. I was offered a Weis at a similar size for $18k. I just laughed and said good luck.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

LapeerLandscape;1835393 said:


> Look at it this way
> 8 plows at $2000 each is $16,000. sounds like plenty. That leaves $9000. for 12 salts and I am thinking 8 of the salts will be done while your out plowing. Those numbers look good to me, the question is do have the extra equipment to use or have to rent.


2000.00 per plow? divide that between shovelers,loaders, skids plow trucks,sounds like a big time loser or a break even deal to me ! Plus ,whats the tolerance? May have to camp out on this one job and plow it a couple times.This business is getting really silly This is a loader job,trucks alone worthless.I made that on a 3 acre site here in ct last year and I'm not getting rich by any means.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

2" snowfall, 11.5 acres, even with the islands, I think I could get it done in 7-8 hours, with a properly outfitted truck. 

Some of y'all that see "acres" immediately think it takes loaders hours and hours are ridiculous. If you use the industry average of 1 acre\hour\truck and 8' plow, this is a 12 hour lot. Loaders are far more efficient. So that time should be going down drastically. 

An hour of setup with a truck or skid steer. 3 hours with a loader, tops. Have no idea on shoveling and would have to see the lot when it's busy to determine the amount of salt.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1835426 said:


> 2" snowfall, 11.5 acres, even with the islands, I think I could get it done in 7-8 hours, with a properly outfitted truck.
> 
> Some of y'all that see "acres" immediately think it takes loaders hours and hours are ridiculous. If you use the industry average of 1 acre\hour\truck and 8' plow, this is a 12 hour lot. Loaders are far more efficient. So that time should be going down drastically.
> 
> An hour of setup with a truck or skid steer. 3 hours with a loader, tops. Have no idea on shoveling and would have to see the lot when it's busy to determine the amount of salt.


Mark I agree, we do the Meijers store here in Lapeer its about 13.5 acres of parking lot plus the gas station and roadways. I can do it with a 14ft box and a pick up in 4 to 5 hrs depending on the snow depth. I sometimes stay a little longer to clean up parking spots from shift change or the truck docks from trucks that have moved. I thought for the amount of snow and number of pushes it wasn't bad. Someone will take it for that.


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## Ne1 (Jan 15, 2007)

I would have passed also but in reality here in the midwest market it probably would have gone even cheaper.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm with Leigh on this. I don't understand how you could plow that for $2000 on a 2" snowfall. **And actually make money**

I know someone will do it for $25,000 but damn, that's a lot of work for that money.


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## PrecisionS&I (Jan 30, 2012)

That would be in the 28k-32 range here if we got your snow fall totals.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

No.............


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

crapshoot . low to me , whoever had it last year got crushed between the 5-7th event at that price . they spent more than half that in material and fuel. T&M it if at all possible.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

No breakdowns and Mark O est. you should make about 500-1000.00 at the end.


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## mikeyd915 (Sep 22, 2014)

You should counter at $32,000 and let them get bids from other companies. The size and people activity of the lot is going to make it difficult and long to plow.


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

Hopefully everyone reads this, but I didn't mention that most all the snow in front of the GIANT on the right side of the lot needs to be relocated to the left corner triangle, so that adds to the task.

Also the area behind the strip mall is a post office parking area with a lot of activity.

Im holding off for now with a counter until I hear about a 14 acre site on Friday


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## highlander316 (Oct 18, 2006)

A different contractor plows that place every year. Usually always salted with a tailgate salter. I plow the little building to the right side of the pic with the concrete lot.

I've never seen the snow located to one area. It's always at the end of the row or burying my clients dumpster in.


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

grandview;1835594 said:


> No breakdowns and Mark O est. you should make about 500-1000.00 at the end.


Thats pretty accurate


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

highlander316;1835605 said:


> A different contractor plows that place every year. Usually always salted with a tailgate salter. I plow the little building to the right side of the pic with the concrete lot.
> 
> I've never seen the snow located to one area. It's always at the end of the row or burying my clients dumpster in.


So what was used last year equipment wise? Loader, backhoe, craftsman lawnmower?


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## highlander316 (Oct 18, 2006)

MatthewG;1835607 said:


> So what was used last year equipment wise? Loader, backhoe, craftsman lawnmower?


Mostly trucks, don't remember seeing a loader there (I didn't usually plow that place last year, one of my other guys did). Only saw a loader there 2 or 3 years ago (I know the sub of the sub that did it that year).


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## highlander316 (Oct 18, 2006)

A few years back I remember another member on here putting up a pic of this site looking for subs. Don't remember who it was thou.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

If those service ranges are accurate, I don't feel that it's too unreasonable.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ponyboy;1835378 said:


> I would walk not enough money


i concur... 25k for nearly 500k sq ft retail is insane.. and you'd only salt 12 times for 30"? Id have that thing salted 4x on a 8" storm alone plus pre salt and salt days after for any re-freeze. We had sites last year at 60-80 salting charges.. bad year and yeah almost double of average.

if that site is $900-1500 per salt/calcium app, adds up fast and then no profit by january.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Citytow;1835592 said:


> crapshoot . low to me , whoever had it last year got crushed between the 5-7th event at that price . they spent more than half that in material and fuel. T&M it if at all possible.


T&M is for those who don't know how to estimate and bid.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ramairfreak98ss;1835884 said:


> i concur... 25k for nearly 500k sq ft retail is insane.. and you'd only salt 12 times for 30"? Id have that thing salted 4x on a 8" storm alone plus pre salt and salt days after for any re-freeze. We had sites last year at 60-80 salting charges.. bad year and yeah almost double of average.
> 
> if that site is $900-1500 per salt/calcium app, adds up fast and then no profit by january.


And this is why there are salt shortages.

4 applications of salt on an 8" storm is just stupid. And a waste of time and your customer's money. And bad for the environment.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Ramairfreak98ss;1835884 said:


> Id have that thing salted 4x on a 8" storm alone plus pre salt and salt days after for any re-freeze. We had sites last year at 60-80 salting charges.. bad year and yeah almost double of average.


How many times did you plow on that 8" storm?

The sites with 60-80 salt events, how many times were they pushed?

That seems like an insane amount of salt for NJ, no matter what the winter was like...


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

*hi*



MatthewG;1835405 said:


> I already told the customer Id pass, even before I posted this thread. He did ask where I would be, honestly double would be better maybe 40K, its an aggravating lot for sure. I didn't respond with a counter offer yet
> 
> I have the extra backhoe and skid steer(at a low seasonal cost to rent), but wheel loader I do not
> 
> ...


Low snow fall most likely won't happen this winter, at 25 I would have walk away also, hey he might counter at 35


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1835903 said:


> And this is why there are salt shortages.
> 
> 4 applications of salt on an 8" storm is just stupid. And a waste of time and your customer's money. And bad for the environment.


Completely agree......


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

BUFF;1835934 said:


> Completely agree......


Litigation, damn lawyers and high heeled shoes in snowfalls have made the bizzare the norm!


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

A slip and fall is no longer a sure win in court around here 
I had a bagel shop worker walk to work in 4 inch heels during a major snow storm over 4 inches an hour she fell and broke her hip they sued me and lost 
Judges are now looking at all info not just saying contractor is wrong he said she was not taking proper precautions in the weather 
Btw she worked a block away as a bartender at night then would go to work at bagel shop in am 
So yes salt is necessary but everybody needs to use proper judgment but 4 times and a pre salt also 
Wow


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

ponyboy;1835963 said:


> A slip and fall is no longer a sure win in court around here
> I had a bagel shop worker walk to work in 4 inch heels during a major snow storm over 4 inches an hour she fell and broke her hip they sued me and lost
> Judges are now looking at all info not just saying contractor is wrong he said she was not taking proper precautions in the weather
> Btw she worked a block away as a bartender at night then would go to work at bagel shop in am
> ...


Glad to hear that and we need more of it as long as the contractor makes an effort. Call it a common sense law.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

leigh;1835957 said:


> Litigation, damn lawyers and high heeled shoes in snowfalls have made the bizzare the norm!


Though I'm not a fan of Lawyers a well written contract limits your exposure for litigation from slip and falls. 
If some bimbo ware's high heeled shoes during a snow storm see deserves to fall on her @$$. Just like the moron that runs the wrong tire in the winter deserves to be in the ditch.

In my part of the world folks take responsibility for their stupidity and poor judgment.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

That's funny 
People don't have common sense any more 

Just like this complex will hire a company with jeeps and 150 to plow that site and they will use a tailgate spreader 
Everybody needs to be accountable don't take a contract if you can't Handel it 
Don't be in business if you can write a contract that protects you or hire a lawyer to do it for you 
Don't drive to mall to shop in a major storm 
Oh it stopped snowing after snowing for 8 hours roads are fine lets get out if house 
I really hate where I live I need to live here but I want to move where people accept snow on ground and go slower wear boots


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

grandview;1835594 said:


> No breakdowns and Mark O est. you should make about 500-1000.00 at the end.





MatthewG;1835606 said:


> Thats pretty accurate


That would what is left at the end of the season,sorry


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

I'd counter at $35, he said he has room


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## EZSWEEP (Nov 18, 2010)

*That price is way low.*

That price is way low . A western snowplow is $6300 for a wideout a pickup is now 35,000 for plain jane . Why would one plow that lot for $25,000 . The site has a 24 hr supermarket and the canopies have snow constantly falling off them .Every year this place is looking for a new contractor because they refuse to pay a fair price and get poor service . The site at a minimum should be $45,000-50,000 for a 3 year contract. Don't forget your working crazy hours of the night and salt prices are going up .


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## EZSWEEP (Nov 18, 2010)

$45,000 to 50,000 per year


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

These low priced lots can be devastating!


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

The western snow plow might be the cheapest piece of equipment there 
Loader 
Skid 
Pusher 
A lot if equipment needed to do in a timely manner


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## EZSWEEP (Nov 18, 2010)

The $25,000 grand would just cover my monthly fuel bill!!!


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1835902 said:


> T&M is for those who don't know how to estimate and bid.


T/M is the key to a lot that size . you'll be the one trying to up charge when things go downhill while I sail to the bank . let me guess, you don't make errors , your equipment don't break , your men don't get sick and ALL your customers pay on time . yeah , I know the type wesport


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## EZSWEEP (Nov 18, 2010)

45,000-$50,000 per year is fair price on a 3 year contract with extra hourly charges for equipment to move snow on the lot if needed . The national management companies are driving the snow pricing in to the toilet . In a few years I won't leave my house when it's snowing because there are contractors that are willing to plow for beer money . Wake up and no what your cost are .


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

EZSWEEP;1836517 said:


> The $25,000 grand would just cover my monthly fuel bill!!!


exactly , fuels , materials . they fluctuate . no one sees that . they just quote "25-35k" like the company will fork it over in bundles of 10k. we have alotta dreamers here . lol . no loader needed ? its just boggles my mind with these guys .

well one thing is for sure , they keep us busy when there is 2' on the ground and they're either in the shop helping the mechanic plop that drives shaft back up in there or underneath the covers in humility . whos next ?


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

I didn't counter yet, I have several other per inch properties out to bid. However, if anything changes I'll update. Honestly, I thought he would start at $40,000, not 25.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

T&M, lol! Those jobs are for wussies


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

lilweeds;1836822 said:


> T&M, lol! Those jobs are for wussies


And those who are in over their head........


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

lilweeds;1836822 said:


> T&M, lol! Those jobs are for wussies


We have one. We bill for time. They provide salt, mag, and pusher boxes.

Not exactly a wussy account lol


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

BUFF;1836845 said:


> And those who are in over their head........


Please explain. Time and materials has worked for me...not for snow so much but the Landscaping aspect.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

WIPensFan;1836850 said:


> Please explain. Time and materials has worked for me...not for snow so much but the Landscaping aspect.


With time and material it's hard to get paid for being productive.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

WIPensFan;1836850 said:


> Please explain. Time and materials has worked for me...not for snow so much but the Landscaping aspect.


In the case of snow; Time and total cost should be known based on the scope of the service, for both seasonal and per push.
Same approach is used for Lawn-Care, Property Maintenance and Landscaping, anything beyond what's covered in the quote is quoted in addition. 
When biding on remodel work I do put in a clause to cover unknown's, but the remodel work/materials is quoted.
The only time I do T&M is when doing irrigation repair/trouble shooting, even then I give a "ball park cost".


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Whiffyspark;1836848 said:


> We have one. We bill for time. They provide salt, mag, and pusher boxes.
> 
> Not exactly a wussy account lol


If they run out of salt and there is a slip and fall who us at fault 
Not sure I sure I would want to lust them as an additional insured I like to be incontrol of my materials


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

ponyboy;1836863 said:


> If they run out of salt and there is a slip and fall who us at fault
> Not sure I sure I would want to lust them as an additional insured I like to be incontrol of my materials


We're in control. They simply provided it. We always have at least 3 triaxs of bulk and 10 pallets of mag on site.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Ok I tried that once told them to reorder and they waited to long and they had no salt 
I used my stock pile and charged them but 

May be I will try that on a contract I going after


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

JD Dave;1836852 said:


> With time and material it's hard to get paid for being productive.


lets face it Dave , sometimes its just hard to get paid or get paid on time . most of our accts are good upstanding clients , no doubt . but I always try to stay 1 step ahead of the bigboys (corperate, snow brokers,etc) with a monthly retainer draw( seasonal ) w/ a pullout option clause due to non payment. 
my good friend got smoked like a fine Cuban cigar last winter from a reputable , real estate giant here . I asked why he would let a multi million dollar outfit get so far ahead of his services rendered (3 months) w/o seeing a dime . he shrugged his shoulders . now that's just poor business practice on both parts . 
if it looks like a duck , walks like a duck , smells like a duck , most likely
ITS A DUCK . run your a$$ off and recoup what minimal funds you've already lost .


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I would not even consider doing a job around here t/m. I'd have to bid against $75/hour pickups which in the end would cost more for a job because they would bill 3 hours and id be done in 30 min. Hauling snow, loader work and salt are prefered to be extras but most larger places wsnt everything included for budget reasons.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

BUFF;1836854 said:


> In the case of snow; Time and total cost should be known based on the scope of the service, for both seasonal and per push.
> Same approach is used for Lawn-Care, Property Maintenance and Landscaping, anything beyond what's covered in the quote is quoted in addition.
> When biding on remodel work I do put in a clause to cover unknown's, but the remodel work/materials is quoted.
> The only time I do T&M is when doing irrigation repair/trouble shooting, even then I give a "ball park cost".


But aren't you just "quoting" based on your time and materials?

At least with T&M you know you will not lose money if your pricing is correct. It negates all the unknowns on the job.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

WIPensFan;1836890 said:


> But aren't you just "quoting" based on your time and materials?
> 
> At least with T&M you know you will not lose money if your pricing is correct. It negates all the unknowns on the job.


Yes I'm quoting time and materials taken to do the job, however folks around me want quotes for jobs. Seems everyone has a budget to work with and having cost identified up front is preferred.

Both approaches have their pro's and con's, I understand my cost / capability's and by working off a quote/bid doesn't open the door for the customer to challenge the charges.


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

A 3yd loader 16'pusher can do that lot by itself in 3 hrs. Call it 4 if youre worried. $200 an hour for the piece is great. That a $7-800 per plow lot. So you use $5k for plow, that leaves $20K for salt and walks. Why wouldn't you take that?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

So lets go back to the original post for you guys that want to do this job T&M. What would your rate be? What would you use for clearing the lot. Its already been stated the average number plows was 8. If its a light year you might only get 5 or 6 plows. That equipment might sit there a month and not get used, remember this area doesn't get a lot of snow. I know everyone is predicting another cold/snowy winter but unless you have a crystal ball its still kind of a guess.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Maclawnco;1836947 said:


> A 3yd loader 16'pusher can do that lot by itself in 3 hrs. Call it 4 if youre worried. $200 an hour for the piece is great. That a $7-800 per plow lot. So you use $5k for plow, that leaves $20K for salt and walks. Why wouldn't you take that?


Are u saying that's the only piece he needs on site, I hope that's not the case.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

All the talk about T&M and the "worst winter in history will happen again". This has people worried along with the impending salt shortage...... Seasonal with cap might work the best or tierd contracts.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Maclawnco;1836947 said:


> A 3yd loader 16'pusher can do that lot by itself in 3 hrs. Call it 4 if youre worried. $200 an hour for the piece is great. That a $7-800 per plow lot. So you use $5k for plow, that leaves $20K for salt and walks. Why wouldn't you take that?


You're only going to have six pushes per season?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

If I were the customer I would never agree to T&M unless I was promised a productivity rate, lot cleared in X amount of hours with X amount of equipment. You could put 6 guys out there with 7 1/2 ft straight blades and push snow around all day and just add up the dollars.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

jrs.landscaping;1836986 said:


> You're only going to have six pushes per season?


Original post said an average of 8 plows 12 saltings with 30" of snow per year.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;1836989 said:


> Original post said an average of 8 plows 12 saltings with 30" of snow per year.


So out of 8 plowing events there would be around 12-15 pushes?

Hourly can work, we have an industrial contract, they have outside storage areas for product so no two pushes/ events will take the same amount of time. It was really the only way to price the account.


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

jrs.landscaping;1836996 said:


> So out of 8 plowing events there would be around 12-15 pushes?
> 
> Hourly can work, we have an industrial contract, they have outside storage areas for product so no two pushes/ events will take the same amount of time. It was really the only way to price the account.


correct .each storm is different too .


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

The original post said 8 plowings if that equals 12 to 15 pushes then I'm charging by the push.


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

been in the business quite a few years , have yet to come across a client requesting or fellow contractor charge per push around here . strange


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Also during work hours I doubt you can use a 16 foot pusher people park where they want usually where it's harder for us


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

I still don't understand how 8 plowings (per the original post) equals 12-15 . I know that on some larger events you may have to plow twice but that's not what it says, it says 8 plows.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

That place here would go for $25-$30 thousand all day long.....Can it be done for that....Sure....Are you gonna get rich doing it.....No

If you were relying on that to be you one Big account it is Not worth it...


Volume is how your gonna make money in this industry now a days....

One more thing to think about on these Seasonal Accounts of this size and larger...Weather Insurance......Hedge your bet against bad winters like we had last year......


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

LapeerLandscape;1837044 said:


> I still don't understand how 8 plowings (per the original post) equals 12-15 . I know that on some larger events you may have to plow twice but that's not what it says, it says 8 plows.


Day time events, full push at night.


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## Roper7 (Sep 26, 2013)

Is there an option to do a combination contract? Meaning, a seasonal contract that would cover up to 6 pushes. Then, a per push price beyond that. So that nobody gets screwed. Not the owner, or the contractor. On a light year that there is only 5 pushes the owner isn't throwing away bunch of money, and in a bad year of 10 or 12 pushes the contractor isn't going to lose his butt. Same for the salting. Anything above and beyond your set cap is handled with a change order.
I only do per push contracts. They are hard bids. I do not do T/M. I am constantly trying to better myself and equipment to get things done quicker and better, to pick up more lots, and make more money. Doing time and material bids, there is no incentive to work harder or faster, since that means that you will make less money? Typically, none of my clients are even awake to confirm what time I showed up to clear their lot, or, even there when I leave. They just show up, and the lot is cleared and ready for them.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Citytow;1836528 said:


> T/M is the key to a lot that size . you'll be the one trying to up charge when things go downhill while I sail to the bank . let me guess, you don't make errors , your equipment don't break , your men don't get sick and ALL your customers pay on time . yeah , I know the type wesport


So equipment doesn't break, men don't get sick and customers pay on time for T&M work?

Anyways, someone that can't bid a set price on an 11.5 acre property does not know what they are doing. Whether in business for a decade or decades.

T&M is not the key, it is the lock. As in locked door because these type of properties want a very close number to budget with and T&M leaves it wide open to push this thing with an S10 for 3 days and a push spreader to salt with. As Dave said, you don't get paid for being efficient. You will never beat your hourly rate, unless you are dishonest.

Why is it so difficult to determine production rates for various pieces of equipment? And salt rates?

As I said, T&M is for those who don't know what they are doing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Citytow;1836862 said:


> ANYONE that has been in this business for "decades", will tell you they would prefer T&M . its a no brainer .


Exactly how long have you been in this business?

I will give you this, the no brainer part is correct.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Citytow;1836868 said:


> lets face it Dave , sometimes its just hard to get paid or get paid on time . most of our accts are good upstanding clients , no doubt . but I always try to stay 1 step ahead of the bigboys (corperate, snow brokers,etc) with a monthly retainer draw( seasonal ) w/ a pullout option clause due to non payment.


Wait, first you state T&M is a no brainer, now you're stating your accounts are seasonal.

Which is it?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

As for the rest, let's hear the answers.



LapeerLandscape;1836987 said:


> If I were the customer I would never agree to T&M unless I was promised a productivity rate, lot cleared in X amount of hours with X amount of equipment. You could put 6 guys out there with 7 1/2 ft straight blades and push snow around all day and just add up the dollars.


That goes back to knowing production rates and then you might as well bid it per push or by the season. Which apparently a few are skeered to do.

I know of one T&M account in my area. I tried bidding it per push and they threw it out. I gave them hourly rates that were ridiculously low and still didn't get it.

Dave is right, those who know what they are doing will never win a T&M or hourly bid, because they know their costs AND production rates and can beat their hourly rate on a regular basis.

And I'll put Dave up against Citytow all day and every day. I've met Dave in person but only Citytow online.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

A lot depends on the actually site. We are on the same site from first snowflake to last. So time works. That's what they wanted going on 5 years now


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

T &M for plowing is a loser in my opinion.If I plowed 30 hrs a week during season maybe it would work,maybe. I try to take in at least 200$ an hr for each piece of equip,whos going to pay that? Lucky to get 75$ hr! Maybe if I was retired and just working for someone else for extra cash.Per push or seasonal,let my experience and organizational skills make me $$ rather than some management company or cheapskate business owner that wants to micro manage "my" company.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

WIPensFan;1836850 said:


> Please explain. Time and materials has worked for me...not for snow so much but the Landscaping aspect.





JD Dave;1836852 said:


> With time and material it's hard to get paid for being productive.


I have never done snow on T&M. I said that earlier. However for landscaping I did it 80% of the time. This is more where I have seen lots of unknowns crop up. You are still driven to be productive because in order to do all the work you get offered, you have to be efficient. Also, if you want to keep getting work from your customers it doesn't pay to take your sweet time to do their jobs. They have eyes and can see what's going on.

I just didn't like the blanket statement of "you don't know what your doing if you use T&M.

Carry on.:salute:


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

let's try to keep the discussion on point rather then attacking one another personally...everyone has a right to their opinion, however, we don't need to be negative or nasty to one another

or, place one another on "ignore" if we can't get along and/or respond to each other decently :waving:

thanks, we would appreciate it


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1837281 said:


> As for the rest, let's hear the answers.
> 
> That goes back to knowing production rates and then you might as well bid it per push or by the season. Which apparently a few are skeered to do.
> 
> ...


you are one of my biggest fans . read n I will learn ya howpayup
your admirer j allen aint got nothing on me . lmao
I know you have all his books , just not the resources.
keep pluggin , and I don't mean hitting hydrants

per pushes loses money everytime
doesent make sense. , JMO


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

T&M I can get $65-$85, per push/per event I can get between $150-200. No brainier there. Back on topic in all reality that lot should go low 30's. There's money to be made at that price.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Thanks for all the entertainment but I would still like to here how you would do that job (page 1 post 1) on T&M and be profitable. 
Loader? rented or owned
Skidsteer? rented or owned
6 trucks? 
sidewalk crew
salt
I don't need to know what your exact rate is just fill in some blanks


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

good point ,ME TOO!
id go T&M .I could see MY equipment, hand labor rates, along w/ MY material mark-up could bring MY company as much as 50k on a big 2 day storm .
why leave coin on the table ?

so , I bid on it , don't get it , ATLEAST I didn't lose anything .I never had it . how can you lose something you've never had ?

IM a capitalist , and " I " don't give it away just to "get it".

This is MY OPINION , its not wrong , may be a gamble , BUT SO IS THE SNOW BUSINESS!payup

I also smell early n often storms again this year. YOU???:laughing:

BELOW : 10' boss buttockspayup brought to you by , road scholar trucking.they love TNM, just ask them !


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

So your telling me that you would have enough equipment and labor in that parking lot to justify billing out over $1000. per hour for 2 days (48hrs)


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

LapeerLandscape;1837414 said:


> So your telling me that you would have enough equipment and labor in that parking lot to justify billing out over $1000. per hour for 2 days (48hrs)


yes . keeping it accessable 24/7 . by hauling all piled snow offsite. it adds up quick . I seen a union competitors numbers on MALLS, but we were unable to bid (non union) . were talking totally legit here with WC, union rates , and the whole nine yards, YES with 
NO PROBLEM . And I'll consider it that since there are not many facts to go by.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

some can't seem to help themselves with ruining a discussion...once again, either place each other on ignore or DO NOT respond to each other anymore. either way, there's no need to keep interrupting a discussion for your own personal reasons and/or dislike for one another

thanks...please move on :waving:


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

not every site is right for t+m

We have a few but they are "zero tolerance" so we're on site the entire storm. If you have accounts thAt get pushed every X inches. Those are NOT the right kind of accounts to bid t+m. 

One of our sites is around $2k an hour billed. Materials are provided, but we have to order them. They pay for them


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Whiffyspark;1837466 said:


> not every site is right for t+m
> 
> We have a few but they are "zero tolerance" so we're on site the entire storm. If you have accounts thAt get pushed every X inches. Those are NOT the right kind of accounts to bid t+m.
> 
> One of our sites is around $2k an hour billed. Materials are provided, but we have to order them. They pay for them


Agree for the most part, but the guy billing 50k per event on an 11 acre lot makes this approach laughable........ when in reality for some lots it is feasible.


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## EZSWEEP (Nov 18, 2010)

Anybody that thinks this can be serviced for $25,000 should not be in the snow business period . Salt is $75 per ton we have around 10-12 events per year here and at least 6 salting events .If you do a average of $3000 per storm and $1200 per salting event should be around $48,000 .00


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

EZSWEEP;1837676 said:


> Anybody that thinks this can be serviced for $25,000 should not be in the snow business period . Salt is $75 per ton we have around 10-12 events per year here and at least 6 salting events .If you do a average of $3000 per storm and $1200 per salting event should be around $48,000 .00


Depending on your area

25 is completely normal here. That's the problem with asking for prices. My area is completely different than yours.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Whiffyspark;1837733 said:


> Depending on your area
> 
> 25 is completely normal here. That's the problem with asking for prices. My area is completely different than yours.


WhAt machines would you use how much salt what would you profit from at $25


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

ponyboy;1837736 said:


> WhAt machines would you use how much salt what would you profit from at $25


I personally wouldn't unless the customer had at least two more sites.

We have a hd similar sized that is 30k a year. Not one of mine though so I can't give you specifics


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Was just looking for prices on other side of the country


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm 2 states away from you lol


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Too early I thought I saw south Montana


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

EZSWEEP;1837676 said:


> Anybody that thinks this can be serviced for $25,000 should not be in the snow business period . Salt is $75 per ton we have around 10-12 events per year here and at least 6 salting events .If you do a average of $3000 per storm and $1200 per salting event should be around $48,000 .00


$1200 per salting event? You're gonna use maybe two tons top to salt that lot??? Like Mark side that lot can be plowed on just a few hours with the right stuff. I'm all for making money, but killing the customer is why the nationals have gained market share.


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## EZSWEEP (Nov 18, 2010)

2 tons would do the isles and roads . Not the walks or the parking spaces .


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EZSWEEP;1837676 said:


> Anybody that thinks this can be serviced for $25,000 should not be in the snow business period . Salt is $75 per ton we have around 10-12 events per year here and at least 6 salting events .If you do a average of $3000 per storm and $1200 per salting event should be around $48,000 .00


Pricing is too regional for you to make this statement.

I'd bet around Erie it would go for $15K.

$48,000 would get you laughed out of the bidding process by me. We don't have 6,000 people\square mile like some of Jersey does. Cost of living isn't as high as Jersey\New York. Everything is different.

So I'll make the statement that anyone who prices a job for someone in another state should not be in the snow business.

Not only is pricing regional, my costs are different than a competitor's costs across town. That's why pricing is different.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;1837844 said:


> Pricing is too regional for you to make this statement.
> 
> I'd bet around Erie it would go for $15K.
> 
> ...


Thank you, there are some that understand the concept...

One guy says no less than 48K for his area, the OP says 40K (which I still can't understand with the snowfall totals he's claming), Oomkes says 15K in Erie, which wouldn't surprise me. I'd be about 30K with our snowfall totals. I can't see how anyone with the OP's snow totals couldn't make money on that lot at 25K a season.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Can people in other areas tell me prices on 
Salt 
Labor
Equipment rental 
Insurance 
Fuel 
Anything u feel is important to determine your price 

I do a car dealership one skid with a 9 foot plow and box 
Takes 2 yards of salt 4 bagss of calcium same guy shovels he is there from 1 inch till storm ends usually 8 hours then salt trucks swings through 
That is a $27,000 account 
Operator $25 an hour 
$80 ton of sAlt
$12 bag of cal
Fuel $4 a gal 
Skid payment $600 month 
Own the boss plow with kage $6000
My insurance for snow is app $4000 year 5 mill umbrella


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

ponyboy;1837858 said:


> Can people in other areas tell me prices on
> Salt
> Labor
> Equipment rental
> ...


Sorry usually 12 salting and 8 plowing events most under 8 inches


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I think some of you guys who are simplifying this lot to a set number of pushes, based on given snowfall averages, are forgetting that it rarely starts snowing at 10pm and ends at 2am the next morning. This was eluded to earlier in this thread ( 8 snow events and 12-15 pushes ). Lets say it starts snowing at 6am and lasts till noon?? This, to me, is where the money starts to pile up on this account. Not only that but a 30" average could be 30-1" snowfalls. We had that last year in Madison, we got a lot of little 1-2" snows every 2-3 days and even every other day for a while. I realize it could also be less events with heavier totals but the time spent on site during those events will still add up. All I'm saying is on an average snow year you MIGHT make a little at $25k, but on a higher than average year you will get burned badly at $25k.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

EZSWEEP;1837836 said:


> 2 tons would do the isles and roads . Not the walks or the parking spaces .


You are way over salting the site. Two Max and three or four bags on the walks.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

WIPensFan;1837862 said:


> I think some of you guys who are simplifying this lot to a set number of pushes, based on given snowfall averages, are forgetting that it rarely starts snowing at 10pm and ends at 2am the next morning. This was eluded to earlier in this thread ( 8 snow events and 12-15 pushes ). Lets say it starts snowing at 6am and lasts till noon?? This, to me, is where the money starts to pile up on this account. Not only that but a 30" average could be 30-1" snowfalls. We had that last year in Madison, we got a lot of little 1-2" snows every 2-3 days and even every other day for a while. I realize it could also be less events with heavier totals but the time spent on site during those events will still add up. All I'm saying is on an average snow year you MIGHT make a little at $25k, but on a higher than average year you will get burned badly at $25k.


On a 6am to noon snow here was what we try and do, right a wrong you let me know. Let the snow come down a little go out and clean up the roadways, isles, sidewalks and throw some salt down (should take an hour or 2 on this lot) go back at night and do a full lot plow.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ponyboy;1837859 said:


> Sorry usually 12 salting and 8 plowing events most under 8 inches


thats why.. guys who are strictly plowing only, bill $1-2k per storm maybe..

Some areas, or even in NJ, slip and fall central of the USA, where you are salting too, the price is 2/3 cost for salt services and 1/3 cost for actual plowing.... its just that plowing generally takes a lot more time than salting does.

a lot that is $300 for salt takes "5-10m to salt/do the sidewalks" and we're talking maybe a 100-150k sq ft lot and walks, and then plowing may only be $200-300 as well, but takes an hour or less with a really experienced driver.

In NJ, especially here, you salt every times its plowed, unless its already melting, temps higher than freezing etc... which isn't real often as in last season.

We had 86, yes you read that right, eighty six salting services for a small convinience store similar to a wawa/711 type facility in nj last season and it was a tiny lot. We could drive in a circle around their building and usually hit the walkway too unless there were cars there.

$105 per app, time with no cars 30-40 seconds, time with any cars 1-2m.
Thats almost $9k for that location without any plowing costs. as overkill as you all may seem to think, i as well at times think its overkill, they call for more salt, more than morning and evening and at times only an hour or two after we just salted or left plowing/salting. I've heard other folks on here talk about accounts that took them about an hour to plow and use $45 in salt when charging $100 and the total for the seasonal site is $2800. I mean maybe thats ok if you assumed ZERO liability for slip and falls..


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

LapeerLandscape;1837898 said:


> On a 6am to noon snow here was what we try and do, right a wrong you let me know. Let the snow come down a little go out and clean up the roadways, isles, sidewalks and throw some salt down (should take an hour or 2 on this lot) go back at night and do a full lot plow.


I'd love to handle snow that way honestly.. in NJ, our most profitable times are during the day "which is uncommon", when it snows so light that it snows all day long constantly but only say an inch every couple to few hours.

I means the trucks stay out, never have to plow, and literally salt every 1-3hrs as needed, and the lots say wet and no buildup. Most contracts here demand zero tolerance, no snow, no ice, no buildup etc... as impossible as that is during most heavy snow storms, you do as much as possible to attain that outcome.

On the flipside from a financial standpoint, why let it snow 2-3" over say 4-8hours, while the lots are "slippery" at very least or snow covered, and then go out to plow?

that senario looks like this

1. presalt - ? maybe $150
2. plow after 2-3" falls $200
3. salt after plow? $150

or you

1. presalt at 7am
2. salt at 9am
3. salt at 12pm
4. salt at 2-3pm again "assuming its done.
$150x4 is $600, $100 more than the same guy that assumed a lot of liability to let the lot stay slippery during the storm and got paid $100 less than you did.

we will not have a slip and fall on days like that, and those days are the times you get slips, not the blizzards with 2'.

If any of you have gotten erroneous slip and fall claims before, you'd realize why crazy jersey contractors over service like crazy.. even with that one site serviced with de-icing 86 times, we had a slip and fall, on a day it didn't snow, ice/snow melted from their sign above the front door, we salted that morning, when it really didn't require it, but to play it safe with the temps and runoff, refreeze,... salted anyway, checked it that night, no issues, by 1130am someone slipped when that snow fell/melted off the sign above front entry way. Who knows how much they'll sue for, our insurance in NJ is rediculous..

someone above said $4k, haha, 4k gets you additional insured and certs in nj for a smaller company. If you have ONE truck you can get a rider here on your GL for maybe $2k a year, which we lost in 09 when we had eight slip and falls all because of a local walmart/usm contract. Add zero to the 4k and you're much closer to what we pay in NJ for snow insurance, and then they dictate to you where, how and what you use to handle snow contracts, who drives for you, types of liabilities, no malls etc.

everything costs an option or upgrade to your policy, but November each year, you're only hoping you have the 100% deposit required for your new 6mo snow policy and that your agent will find SOME company to insure you at least. I already know a couple companies that can't find snow insurance.

When you have plows, trucks, spreaders, equipment, machines, boxes etc... what do you do, all that stuff sits and you watch the snow and all your business go down the drain?

All the plowsite head honchos , i'd love for you to experience dirty jersey for just one season! 5yrs experience or 25, its a different ballgame here for sure, and literally ANY company name that you've heard in the past, is handled by a management company. Those that arn't are difficult to get paid for anyway or don't have budgets to pay the management companies, chose your business wisely here.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

lilweeds;1837886 said:


> You are way over salting the site. Two Max and three or four bags on the walks.


I see companies, usually those who don't know what they're doing... oversalt like crazy.

I've seen places that need 400-500lbs use a ton, theres so much rock salt on the lot it causes traction problems for the cars until its all broken down with cards driving over it.. I pull into a walgreens or cvs or convenience store and just laugh. A lot of companies use "extra/over salt" to compensate for not keeping tabs "or often enough" on the site and hope it prevents ice.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

lilweeds;1837886 said:


> You are way over salting the site. Two Max and three or four bags on the walks.


Lost by that statement


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

LapeerLandscape;1837898 said:


> On a 6am to noon snow here was what we try and do, right a wrong you let me know. Let the snow come down a little go out and clean up the roadways, isles, sidewalks and throw some salt down (should take an hour or 2 on this lot) go back at night and do a full lot plow.


I would think lanes and walks would be required to be done multiple times on a snowfall with that timing. In order to be done in an hr or two you will have to have quite a few pieces of equipment and men. Traffic on site at those times will really slow your rate of clearing and salting. With those kinds of factors, wouldn't your price to service this site in this event go up? Which is why I say $25k isn't enough money for that site for a season. JMO though.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape;1837898 said:


> On a 6am to noon snow here was what we try and do, right a wrong you let me know. Let the snow come down a little go out and clean up the roadways, isles, sidewalks and throw some salt down (should take an hour or 2 on this lot) go back at night and do a full lot plow.


Well, duh, there is absolutely no way you can bill $50K in 2 days doing it that way.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ramairfreak98ss;1837917 said:


> In NJ, especially here, you salt every times its plowed, unless its already melting, temps higher than freezing etc... which isn't real often as in last season.
> 
> We had 86, yes you read that right, eighty six salting services for a small convinience store similar to a wawa/711 type facility in nj last season and it was a tiny lot. We could drive in a circle around their building and usually hit the walkway too unless there were cars there.
> 
> ...


How much snow did you get last year?


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