# Assembling the Best Sidewalk Crew Possible?



## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

We do multifamily, and sidewalks are our weak point. If someone gave me a new front end loader and box, it wouldn't help my productivity a bit, but when our sidewalk crew works well, everything else works well.

We struggled last weekend and I'm looking for tips to motivate, attract, and maintain a top notch crew. 

Things we already do include: run Toro two-stage blowers and a JD 1025R with blower to handle as much as possible without a shovel, use a variety of shovels including 30" scrapers, 18" metal blades, and scoop shovels, buy hot meals and pop in our heated shop, provide water on-site.

What else have you done to make the work desirable for your guys? I grew up with a snow shovel in my hand and know that it's not fun, but I never had the choice to beg off. We run try to run a first class operation in every way, and I'd be seriously interested in having a best in the industry snow crew if I could figure out how. Any tips are much appreciated. Thank you!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Subscribed........


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Only thing I've ever seen work is good pay, cash, buy a meal etc. cash is legal to $600


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

We're doing great on meals, cash not likely to happen, we're simply too large for the risk.


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## snowman55 (Nov 20, 2007)

As has been talked about a lot. Cash is not ok even for $10. Really sucks cause I know if I paid cash I would have a lot more guys show up.

Likely get away with it but 1 whistle blower or 1 guy claim he hurt his back and you will be visited by: unemployment office, workers comp, state and federal revenue, department of labor, and a big guy with a jug of vasoline.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

That's a majority of what we do as well...walks are a nightmare no matter what.



snowman55;1966382 said:


> As has been talked about a lot. Cash is not ok even for $10. Really sucks cause I know if I paid cash I would have a lot more guys show up.
> 
> Likely get away with it but 1 whistle blower or 1 guy claim he hurt his back and you will be visited by: unemployment office, workers comp, state and federal revenue, department of labor, and a big guy with a jug of vasoline.


I highly doubt they'd remember to bring the vaseline if you're involved in tax evasion.


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

This year I supplied pretty good coats or coveralls, whichever they wanted. I am not giving them away , just using for winter then return so if things change next year I still have them. I also supplied hand warmers ( those small packaged kind you shake and use). I may buy a blade for our Dingo to help on the long walks but haven't yet. I buy good snow shovels and I pay fast. Not sure what else I can do.
Steve


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Cash is legal until you pay over $600 in a year, I believe my cpa said its "misc. labor"


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## classiclawncare (Jan 6, 2010)

I have 2 of my best guys run my sidewalk crew. I have 6 total guys in my F-550 dump truck with a dump body. They have a pallet of sidewalk salt, snow shovels and 3 snow blowers. There only job is to go to every jobsite large or small and clear sidewalks. I pay my 2 crew leaders as much as my snow plow truck drivers and pay the regular workers about 2/3 that of the crew leader. I supply food, water, gatoraid and gloves. They can take as many breaks as needed. This past storm, which was our first this Winter I brought in 4 extra guys to help out which seemed to make things go quicker. I also am going to take them all out to dinner once we get caught up on our work. 

I also let my 2 crew leaders pick the extra workers as they know who is a good worker or not better than me out of guys they know. 

My guys also know that once they get done their list they are done and can go home so it helps to keep them motivated. 

This setup has worked for me now for 3 seasons.


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## snowman55 (Nov 20, 2007)

Bean,
Your cpa is wrong, sorry. $600 a year and no 1099, yes. However you can not claim a shoveler as a subcontractor. IRS is cracking down on this big time. Shovelers are employees. Do they use your equipment? Are they under your direction for when and how to do the job? Do they carry their own workers comp? Their own insurance? Is your CPA gonna pay all your fines and back taxes ( and it will be substantial) when you get audited? Don't believe me? I wouldn't either this is a public forum after all. I would suggest you contact the IRS or an employment Attorney for the real answer. I did.

Shovel labor is a nightmare and it will only continue to get worse, work ethic is harder and harder to find. Whenever possible we try to avoid contracts with shoveling. We do however need 25 guys every time it snows (down from 40 last year). I pay a premium $18-20/hr. Give them coats, hats, always say thanks, if I (or a manager) am on site and a crew is shoveling I get out of my truck and help them for a while, buy the occasional lunch, try to have efficient equipment to make the job easier. The fact is this will continue to be the biggest challenge facing snow removal contractors.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

yep a 8 inch heavy wet snow with a icy bottom and crusty top will discourage the best people out there. I am not too sure that paying more, or more frequent food breaks improves the situation much. I think it hinges on keeping a 4 hour schedule and having a senior staff that has worked through bad times before. A bottom line guy when he encounters a really hard snow looks at it that this shoveling might last days and no matter how much money you are paying him it isn't enough for his aching back. Whereas if they know they will only be there for a set period of time, they will work their way through it. The really good ones will then volunteer to work extra if needed. We based it upon it takes one man can shovel x amount snow in 4 hours and they get say 100.00 for doing it based on average snowfall. If they work fast and it is a easy storm, they get the same 100.00 but they spent 2 hours doing it, thus equating to 50/hr. If it is wet, or there are breakdowns and it takes them longer, they will be paid their base rate per hour, but they have to finish their assigned route/tasks. Bottom line, they can't lose but they can make a lot of money quick. You will find that it is easy to recruit people for this because a lot of factory workers will sign up for a four hour shift before or after a shift but won't do it if you are non commitable on how long they are going to work. Church groups seem to always have someone looking for a short time job. 

Try using a good brush on that JD. That eliminates a lot of shoveling but its tough getting through small walkways between buildings


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

We somehow seem to have good luck with sidewalk guys. We currently run 6 sidewalk crews. Each crew is equipped with a Cube van with custom ramps to drive an ATV or snowblower up (no lifting) they all have an ATV with plow, 2 single Stage snowblowers and a bigger Ariens for big snows. They also have several shovels of varying size. They have plastic 50 gallon drums cut in half that are filled with salt. They will have enough to make the rounds through their jobs 2x. When they are done with their route they are responsible for stopping and refueling the van, and restocking their salt bins so they are ready for the next event. The van is always kept running through the shift for heat and to minimize starting issues. The crews each have their "own" jobs but also know other jobs just in case. We do a site visit with the crew leader and one crew member prior to the first snow. We normally run crews of 2-3 but will add a guy on a big event. We offer a good hourly wage and a $2 bonus for each hour worked at the end of the season if they show up when called. 

Our system seems to work as guys keep coming back year to year and are getting the jobs done on or better than budget.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Longae29;1966446 said:


> We somehow seem to have good luck with sidewalk guys. We currently run 6 sidewalk crews. Each crew is equipped with a Cube van with custom ramps to drive an ATV or snowblower up (no lifting) they all have an ATV with plow, 2 single Stage snowblowers and a bigger Ariens for big snows. They also have several shovels of varying size. They have plastic 50 gallon drums cut in half that are filled with salt. They will have enough to make the rounds through their jobs 2x. When they are done with their route they are responsible for stopping and refueling the van, and restocking their salt bins so they are ready for the next event. The van is always kept running through the shift for heat and to minimize starting issues. The crews each have their "own" jobs but also know other jobs just in case. We do a site visit with the crew leader and one crew member prior to the first snow. We normally run crews of 2-3 but will add a guy on a big event. We offer a good hourly wage and a $2 bonus for each hour worked at the end of the season if they show up when called.
> 
> Our system seems to work as guys keep coming back year to year and are getting the jobs done on or better than budget.


Minorities?


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

3 of the crew leaders are white guys that work for us year round. The majority of the rest are Hispanics that do concrete the rest of the year. All have e-verified ss#'s.


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

Longae29;1966446 said:


> $2 bonus for each hour worked at the end of the season if they show up when called.


This seems like a good idea. I've wondered about a bonus at the end of a shift, but a season long incentive spelled out upfront seems better.


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## shawn_ (Jan 19, 2014)

I shoveled what motivated me to do my best and always
Come back was being paid in cash at the end of the storm or within a day after the storm....


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## CHPL (Oct 26, 2003)

The investment in an ATV with a plow would make for more efficient work. You can clear the walks clean right up the the curb edges. Plow small irregular areas.
Bottom line more work done with less employee labor.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

CHPL;1967026 said:


> The investment in an ATV with a plow would make for more efficient work. You can clear the walks clean right up the the curb edges. Plow small irregular areas.
> Bottom line more work done with less employee labor.


I will never purchase another quad for sidewalks. Between my JD 1025R and my ZPlow, quads are one of the most inefficient sidewalk clearing machines out there.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark did you put a cab on your 1025?


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

Equipment isn't our problem, although I agree it's important to start with the best you can in order to make the job as efficient as it can be for the people doing the work. We've got exactly the equipment that is best for our walks, after years of working on the right mix. Whether I'm in a truck, snowblower, or shovel, I never think, "I wish this equipment was better suited to the job." I've honestly not heard any of the people who help us complain about the equipment, either.

What we do need, though, is to get people more interested in using that equipment!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

John_DeereGreen;1967066 said:


> Mark did you put a cab on your 1025?


Most definitely.

Wish it was a factory cab and I probably should have just stepped it up to a 2 Series, but I wanted to keep it small and maneuverable.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

2 series still doesn't have a factory cab either... only the 3 series


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Triple L;1967131 said:


> 2 series still doesn't have a factory cab either... only the 3 series


Shows what the salesman knows.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Good pay is an obvious thing to keep guys around....but, "coaching them up" & making them feel important can do wonders for some...especially key guys. 

I don't have the answers your probably looking for, so Im interested in this thread. I have substantially downsized our sidewalk work over the last few yrs, but other than a couple guys, I still deal with finding new help each winter.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;1967133 said:


> Shows what the salesman knows.


Did you actually have a salesman tell you a 2 series can have a factory cab? Wow...

I think Kubota gets the title for smallest cab tractor, their B2650 is a sweet little machine but it's loud as hell in those cabs.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

Speaking as a former shovel jockey ( 25 years ago ) I would say good eqiupment, good dry gloves always available, excellent pay rate, and a year end bonus for diligence and reliability.
Cash is king, but unless you are willing to have the IRS think you are making 3x what you actually make, that is out of the question.


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## V_Scapes (Jan 1, 2011)

I dont do as much large sidewalk work as most of you do but i have 3 commercials and over 30 driveways. I have 2 shovel guys that ride with me, $20/hr, picked up at their house, coffee for each storm and maybe a meal,they get paid for the previous storm when i see them for the next storm and i help them shovel when needed to keep the day moving along. havent had a problem with them showing up. just need to keep them feeling like they are appreciated. always say thank you and a random "looks good guys" always goes a long way.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

My problem has not been getting the work done 
It has been keeping the guy if it doesn't snow for a while cause he is hungry for work so finds something else. I find the best has been a route and a flat rate for the season broken into weekly pays. With a rate for over and above a certain amount of hours. Now you Have worked in standby pay. Some hourly pay and you add a bonus option at the end which is based upon no missed events. Communicating and performance compared to others and job expectations. Fast pay makes fast friends.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

V_Scapes;1967639 said:


> I dont do as much large sidewalk work as most of you do but i have 3 commercials and over 30 driveways. I have 2 shovel guys that ride with me, $20/hr, picked up at their house, coffee for each storm and maybe a meal,they get paid for the previous storm when i see them for the next storm and i help them shovel when needed to keep the day moving along. havent had a problem with them showing up. just need to keep them feeling like they are appreciated. always say thank you and a random "looks good guys" always goes a long way.


I like the you get paid for last storm
When you show up for next storm. That gets them invested. 
Hmmm


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

I like your system midtown but I think it might get confusing if you go a long time between storms.


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## velocicaur (Oct 10, 2007)

This is someone who has looked at/for various shoveling jobs and this is what caught my eye.

By offering them a real position for the following year.

There are companies in my area that offer solid shovel workers a full time position for the following season. Some of the larger companies pay 20/hr with a year end bonus for good attendance and what not. While that may seem like a decent wage, given the conditions, extremely hard work, undetermined amount of hours... it's not worth it unless you have something in it for the long haul. 

You are 100% better off going to an employment place and work 10/hr at a factory for the winter months than mess with shoveling. Working for minimum wage at the grocery store stocking shelves. It offers more connections and more real jobs at the end of the season. 

Make it a competition. Have 20 guys start the season, sit them down and say there will be 2 guaranteed positions in the spring and two of you will have first dibs if you prove yourself. At least half will flake out, some will stick around and half ass, but there will be a couple that show up and shovel their ass off harder than ever (knowing this can be a true career) and will make damn fine full time employees. Heck, you might even find a couple. You can never turn away good employees in the lawn industry, or any for that matter.

Now, I know you can't do this for everyone. Even if you get lucky and have a good group. Offer them the chance to plow next year assuming they are able to. Any growing business will have more stuff to plow next year, let them learn how to do that. Keep it going from there. None of this, Oh, maybe I can teach you how to plow or you might have a chance to do it. Stand up to your word. Take them of better ones out plowing during the year and let them practice a little. Show that you really care. 

IMO, it can't be viewed as a seasonal/part time job. It needs to be viewed and sold as a way to get a full time job that can turn into a real career.

Well, that turned into a bit of a rant. I do not mean to offend anyone with my comments. I don't know much about the business, but it's just the way I look at it as a potential shovel person.


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

velocicaur- I don't think anyone would doubt your point, and in cases where there's an opening to fill, that helps. 

The problem with snow shoveling is that it inherently takes more guys than anything in the summer. The day it snows, it needs removed. Whatever industry you're in the rest of the year, you're planning it day-in, day-out, weeks and months at a time. It would be like a lawn care co. (I'm not) suddenly deciding that they're going to cut all of their properties for the week in one marathon day, and take off the rest of the week. You'd need 3 or 4x the labor (and equipment) to do it, everyone would work a lot longer day, and the next time you called them, they'd remember how tough it was before.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

V_Scapes;1967639 said:


> I dont do as much large sidewalk work as most of you do but i have 3 commercials and over 30 driveways. I have 2 shovel guys that ride with me, $20/hr, picked up at their house, coffee for each storm and maybe a meal,*they get paid for the previous storm when i see them for the next storm *and i help them shovel when needed to keep the day moving along. havent had a problem with them showing up. just need to keep them feeling like they are appreciated. always say thank you and a random "looks good guys" always goes a long way.


You do realize that is illegal--as stated--don't you?

#1 You must pay what is owed on a regular basis, which is your normal pay period. 
#2 If they don't show and you don't pay them, you are asking for all sorts of DOL trouble.

Neat concept, but it is far from legal in the US.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

MIDTOWNPC;1967713 said:


> My problem has not been getting the work done
> It has been keeping the guy if it doesn't snow for a while cause he is hungry for work so finds something else. I find the best has been a route and a flat rate for the season broken into weekly pays. With a rate for over and above a certain amount of hours. Now you Have worked in standby pay. Some hourly pay and you add a bonus option at the end which is based upon no missed events. Communicating and performance compared to others and job expectations. Fast pay makes fast friends.


Interesting concept.

I think they still get bored sitting around, but it might help.


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## matt-max (Dec 27, 2000)

We have our snow crew sign an agreement pre season stating that they intend to be available for every event from late November through late March. they get their usual pay rate ($10-18/hr) plus a $10/hr bonus for drivers and $5/hr bonus for ground crew. the bonus is paid half with weekly paycheck (the following Friday) and half at end of season IF crew member was present for each and every event. 
this can turn into $1000 for ground crew and $2000 for drivers and the longer the season goes the bigger the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. if somebody quits, oversleeps, can't get out of their driveway, has a cold, etc and misses an event then they miss out on the season end lump sum but get their weekly bonus along the way.
this has worked very well for us.


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

matt-max;1968055 said:


> We have our snow crew sign an agreement pre season stating that they intend to be available for every event from late November through late March. they get their usual pay rate ($10-18/hr) plus a $10/hr bonus for drivers and $5/hr bonus for ground crew. the bonus is paid half with weekly paycheck (the following Friday) and half at end of season IF crew member was present for each and every event.
> this can turn into $1000 for ground crew and $2000 for drivers and the longer the season goes the bigger the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. if somebody quits, oversleeps, can't get out of their driveway, has a cold, etc and misses an event then they miss out on the season end lump sum but get their weekly bonus along the way.
> this has worked very well for us.


This is one of the better ideas I've seen in this thread. I'm liking more and more the idea of a clear bonus system explained on the front side.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

MIDTOWNPC;1967713 said:


> My problem has not been getting the work done
> It has been keeping the guy if it doesn't snow for a while cause he is hungry for work so finds something else. I find the best has been a route and a flat rate for the season broken into weekly pays. With a rate for over and above a certain amount of hours. Now you Have worked in standby pay. Some hourly pay and you add a bonus option at the end which is based upon no missed events. Communicating and performance compared to others and job expectations. Fast pay makes fast friends.


That would be illegal in the US. Can't pay someone for hours not worked this week, and then have them work more hours next week than they're being paid for.

Interesting concept for sure. The only way I could see it happening is if you could somehow get them to become subcontractors, and pay them a seasonal rate.

But that opens up an even bigger can of worms.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

JohnRoscoe;1966377 said:


> We're doing great on meals, cash not likely to happen, we're simply too large for the risk.


Id like to hear the responses here too!

Case in point, last week, had multiple shovel guys for one large site call out, not show up or quit.

Replaced 4 with a known acquaintance of mine, four guys he works with in the past apparently. Well it was like duck dynasty x100. These four had no idea what they were doing, nor did they want to work, and all they cared about is smoke breaks "all the time".

Not only that, but only 40% of the sidewalks at this site got done after 14 hours in the storm, most sat around, couldn't be found or just didn't do anything productive.

I have something like 60 man hours for these 4 to pay out in payroll, and we had to send 3 of our other guys back plus myself to cleanup this site. It is totally insane what little work they actually did. If it was for the fact of them being slow and just too many hours paid , i can deal with that, but the job never got done. They thought they can show up, clock in and they're golden, nope.

I've paid guys $10-12/hr and have gotten better work than guys that get paid $15 "our standard rate" or even $20, where guys claim they're good at sidewalks, have prior experience, fast at snowblowing, hard working etc... nope usually not.

No one wants to actually shovel , anything, not even 1-2". Because after that we're snowblowing with $2000+ simplicity 2 stage snowblowers most with hand warmers lol.

If myself and one good employee can do sidewalks "all of them" at a large site in 2 hours, salted and everything after snowblowing and minor shoveling, why can't 4 guys do it in 5hrs, or 10hrs, or 15hrs?


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Oh and our site manager even bought them $50 worth of pizza mid storm at night, and 10 minutes later, one wanted to leave "for a break" to go get coffee in their car a few miles away... AND wanted to take another one of the guys with them so they could pay for it! So one of 4 wants to leave because they can drive, the other wants to pay...... FIRED!

And yes, in NJ you run a fine line with Dept of Labor for payroll stuff.

You can NOT pay people off the books, unless your a little guy with $40k gross a year.
You can NOT not give them a break and NOT document it.

You have to pay overtime after 8hrs in a shift daily, and 40hrs in a work week. I know very few follow this rule, we usually try to pay higher normal wages to compensate for their hard work on the short shifts of 2-5hrs worth of work, not reward them for working additional hours when most start to get tired and should go home anyway. 

Don't pay them for hours NOT worked, it will come back and burn you bad. We got in trouble because we paid one guy straight for one long storm plus overnight hours the next day, on paper he worked 32hrs clocked in without a documented break. Guy lies about his hours on his next check, "by like 30", says he was in one truck when another guy was and that guy got paid his hours already. Employee gets mad, quits/fired etc. and then files dept of labor dispute against us. State then wants a hard audit of ALL payroll from last two years, checking account statements with check copies to employees etc. The list will take you a week+ to put together and with all the information gathered in time will cost you a few grand, and don't get caught doing something illegal in their labor rules... like paying guys off the books routinely or every friday withdrawing $1500 from your bank account. They'll question everything.


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## ShaneysLawnCare (Oct 17, 2011)

We set up a bonus system kind of like the one previously stated, but we also look for older people semi retired old farmers, we pay them more allow them more breaks but the product (shoveled sidewalks) quality is outstanding and they dont complain no matter what!

But with that being said I have a lot of things to change as far as payroll and everything else I learned a lot from this thread! actually enough to make me worry slightly good thing I have no snow forcasted for the next 3 days that I can work on all of this!!!!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Who the hell shovels sidewalks anymore?? Maybe around the doors and a little cleanup here and there, but actually hand shoveling? Are you guys working on your latest cave paintings too?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

WIPensFan;1968283 said:


> Who the hell shovels sidewalks anymore?? Maybe around the doors and a little cleanup here and there, but actually hand shoveling? Are you guys working on your latest cave paintings too?


Have 70 thousand square feet of sidewalks on one site....They will shovel it if its an inch or under....


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## ShaneysLawnCare (Oct 17, 2011)

We shovel everything under 1" and salt everything under 1/3" also and I kinda wanna look at my property maps and add up how much sidewalk we actually have!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

My Great Great Great Grandpa.


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## ShaneysLawnCare (Oct 17, 2011)

WIPensFan;1968297 said:


> My Great Great Great Grandpa.


If you dont shovel how do you clear your walks under 1"?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

ShaneysLawnCare;1968298 said:


> If you dont shovel how do you clear your walks under 1"?


If it's really light I'll just salt it, but 1/2" or more it's single stage blower. For residential we went out at 1" or more so 98% of the time it was blown. Once in a great while it would be shoveled but not often. Backpack blowers work good for light and fluffy as well. I've started using one at my shop to do around doors and to clear the trailer off.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan;1968283 said:


> Who the hell shovels sidewalks anymore?? Maybe around the doors and a little cleanup here and there, but actually hand shoveling? Are you guys working on your latest cave paintings too?


You do realize that the question was asked aboot sidewalk crews and not every sidewalk is open to equipment, right?

I'm sure apartment complex residents would love to hear 4 backpack blowers going full blathering through the night.

Seems kind of obvious to me.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1968453 said:


> You do realize that the question was asked aboot sidewalk crews and not every sidewalk is open to equipment, right?
> 
> I'm sure apartment complex residents would love to hear 4 backpack blowers going full blathering through the night.
> 
> Seems kind of obvious to me.


Ahhh, the all knowing Oomkes, knew you would have to pipe in here. 
What sidewalks aren't open to equipment? I've never had an account I couldn't use a single stage on. Steps I get, those have to be shoveled most the time, but I've used the lighter single stages on steps before. Gets most of the heavy stuff then cleanup with a shovel. I don't know about where you live but around here it's 2, 3, 4am for most apartments and everything else for that matter. They are hearing backup beepers, plows dropping, blowers blowing, guys talking dumpsters getting dumped. 
I guess it's not that obvious Mark.


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## ShaneysLawnCare (Oct 17, 2011)

WIPensFan;1968525 said:


> Ahhh, the all knowing Oomkes, knew you would have to pipe in here.
> What sidewalks aren't open to equipment? I've never had an account I couldn't use a single stage on. Steps I get, those have to be shoveled most the time, but I've used the lighter single stages on steps before. Gets most of the heavy stuff then cleanup with a shovel. I don't know about where you live but around here it's 2, 3, 4am for most apartments and everything else for that matter. They are hearing backup beepers, plows dropping, blowers blowing, guys talking dumpsters getting dumped.
> I guess it's not that obvious Mark.


I used to have 25 quadplexes that the sidewalk went between the garages and made a T to each of the doors there was sidewalk then garage wall on each side of the long part of the T that was a shovel only case


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

48" shovel is much faster than a blower or single stage on a 1" snow. Fact. Our guys won't even touch a snowblower until there's 4"+.


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## ShaneysLawnCare (Oct 17, 2011)

but WIpen on a side note do you want another TGS1100?!?! Ive got one I dont need anymore


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Longae29;1968537 said:


> 48" shovel is much faster than a blower or single stage on a 1" snow. Fact. Our guys won't even touch a snowblower until there's 4"+.


We have Winner........:salute:

Your gonna get Wipen riled up.............:laughing:


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

ShaneysLawnCare;1968539 said:


> but WIpen on a side note do you want another TGS1100?!?! Ive got one I dont need anymore


No I don't need another one, but thanks anyway.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Longae29;1968537 said:


> 48" shovel is much faster than a blower or single stage on a 1" snow. Fact. Our guys won't even touch a snowblower until there's 4"+.


Ahh, the all knowing Longae, I knew you would pipe in.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Well for crying out loud.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Longae29;1968537 said:


> 48" shovel is much faster than a blower or single stage on a 1" snow. Fact. Our guys won't even touch a snowblower until there's 4"+.


Really, 4" before a blower comes out?? I don't believe that for a second.
If this thread is about keeping sidewalk guys around and happy, then the less physical activity they have to perform the better. If a 48" shovel fits on the walk then a 48"sweeper or blower with heated cab would be better. Less man power needed. 
Do you shovel Longae29?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1968575 said:


> Ahh, the all knowing Longae, I knew you would pipe in.


I'm feeling a headache coming on...


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

WIPensFan;1968590 said:


> Really, 4" before a blower comes out?? I don't believe that for a second.
> If this thread is about keeping sidewalk guys around and happy, then the less physical activity they have to perform the better. If a 48" shovel fits on the walk then a 48"sweeper or blower with heated cab would be better. Less man power needed.
> Do you shovel Longae29?


No surprisingly I'm not a shoveler. The guys are free to use whatever they want to get the job done as quick as possible. Only reporting what ive seen. All (6) sidewalk crews get their jobs done under budget so I'm not going to press it. Once a year I'll see them with the backpack blower. We only do about 118 man hours worth of sidewalks on a 1" snow so I'm probably very naive.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

If it's deeper then 2" I use a single stage blower, anything less I use a walk behind shovel plow, easy stuff. And yes light snowfalls my shovel works quicker than a blower. I have used a hand held blower and a backpack blower, they work but are loud, and you generally get covered in snow, more so then a snow blower.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Longae29;1968616 said:


> No surprisingly I'm not a shoveler. The guys are free to use whatever they want to get the job done as quick as possible. Only reporting what ive seen. All (6) sidewalk crews get their jobs done under budget so I'm not going to press it. Once a year I'll see them with the backpack plower. We only do about 118 man hours worth of sidewalks on a 1" snow so I'm probably very naive.


You didn't have to tell me, I knew.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan;1968623 said:


> You didn't have to tell me, I knew.


I didn't.....


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Had a sidewalk crew show up 5 hours early for their shift last night. Must have thought we were going to make them use leaf blowers and single stage snowblowers....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Longae29;1968885 said:


> Had a sidewalk crew show up 5 hours early for their shift last night. Must have thought we were going to make them use leaf blowers and single stage snowblowers....


Uh oh, they've been reading PS.


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## V_Scapes (Jan 1, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;1968051 said:


> You do realize that is illegal--as stated--don't you?
> 
> #1 You must pay what is owed on a regular basis, which is your normal pay period.
> #2 If they don't show and you don't pay them, you are asking for all sorts of DOL trouble.
> ...


Well they arent legal so no worries on that.

AND one of the guys works full time for my buddies company so he WILL get paid. I dont carry around bundles of cash when i go plowing and every storm takes a different amount of time so i dont know what to pay them till its over. works for me.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

V_Scapes;1969419 said:


> Well they arent legal so no worries on that.
> 
> AND one of the guys works full time for my buddies company so he WILL get paid. I dont carry around bundles of cash when i go plowing and every storm takes a different amount of time so i dont know what to pay them till its over. works for me.


Nice, admitting on a public forum that are breaking 2 laws.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Defcon 5;1968545 said:


> We have Winner........:salute:
> 
> Your gonna get Wipen riled up.............:laughing:


lol



WIPensFan;1968525 said:


> Ahhh, the all knowing Oomkes, knew you would have to pipe in here..


lol



Mark Oomkes;1968575 said:


> Ahh, the all knowing Longae, I knew you would pipe in.


lol



Longae29;1968537 said:


> 48" shovel is much faster than a blower or single stage on a 1" snow. Fact. Our guys won't even touch a snowblower until there's 4"+.


same here...heck, even the 36inchers are TONS faster on the light stuff



WIPensFan;1968590 said:


> Really,* 4" before a blower comes out*?? I don't believe that for a second.
> If this thread is about keeping sidewalk guys around and happy, then the less physical activity they have to perform the better. If a 48" shovel fits on the walk then a 48"sweeper or blower with heated cab would be better. Less man power needed.
> Do you shovel Longae29?


"For the most part", you bet. My guys wouldn't have it any other way. Its more work pissing with a blower (& slower) for "most" of our jobs on light snows.



WIPensFan;1968593 said:


> I'm feeling a headache coming on...


lol



Mark Oomkes;1969444 said:


> Nice, admitting on a public forum that are breaking 2 laws.


ignorance is bliss


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Longae29;1968885 said:


> Had a sidewalk crew show up 5 hours early for their shift last night. Must have thought we were going to make them use leaf blowers and single stage snowblowers....


:laughing: No...it was only about an inch last night, they knew they needed the extra time to shovel everything.



Mark Oomkes;1968890 said:


> Uh oh, they've been reading PS.


They're concrete guys, they don't know how to read.


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## navyman (Dec 1, 2013)

snocrete;1969550 said:


> lol
> 
> lol
> 
> ...


Try a Stihl BR-600 back pack...for 1-2 inches of fluff it is the fastest.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

As others have stated, we also have a hourly bonus that is paid out at the end of the season if they are still with us, showed up for every snowfall, and worked well and did not get fired during the season. Our bonus rate was $5 per hour a few years ago. It's now $3.50.... Next year, probably $3 per hour and stay there in the future. 

It works extremely well for us. If they do quit, but give us at least a 2 week, 14 day notice, they get 50% of their bonus, but its still paid on on April 15th.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Longae29;1968537 said:


> 48" shovel is much faster than a blower or single stage on a 1" snow. Fact. Our guys won't even touch a snowblower until there's 4"+.


I agree with this statement ONLY the first 2 weeks of the snow season. Once you have snow on the sides of the areas you are shoveling and then have to lift up that 48" shovel, its extremely slow.

We also tend to use single stages for 1/2" to 1" as well for the reason stated above.


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