# Liquid Ice Control... Lets air somethings out.... Must read



## Clapper&Company

Hello Fellow Plow site members,

There has been a lot of talk on this site about liquid Ice control within the last few weeks. Some of the info on here is helpful and some very not helpful at all. In order to help some of you out, and clear the air I have decided to post this thread, as I tried to early in the week, but was not very appropriate in the manner that it was done. So I am reposting this, to apply to the rules of this site. (This takes the fun out of it lol)

*Buying the Product:*
There are a few sponsors on here selling liquid products and I'm sure they will chime in on what I have to say to help clear the air on this matter. It is important that everyone knows that there are a lot of people trying to sell liquid products, and that before you buy you need to test what you're getting and do your homework.

There has been a few people trying to compare their products to each other, in fact this is very hard to do. They all come from wells, but not every well is the same; I was just told about a guy selling brine from an oil well! 
As our sponsor will tell you, the stuff that they are selling, are coming from places not in the same state, and there not the same make up, This will go to show what I'm talking about.
I have also talked to a few people selling these products, that really have never used it and they really don't have a clue what there talking about either.

*Can I Market liquid ice control?*
No you cannot. You can use liquid to help better your services, but as of now it is almost impossible to sell it to the client. I know that there are a few large companies who do billion a year in snow removal. They can't even sell it! 
WHY?
•	They don't know anything about it.
•	They can't tell what you're really spraying.
The best use for it is to use it, on your seasonal accounts to save you time and money.

I'm now going to try to touch base on some of the things I have heard and help clean them up:

*This will replace Salt and save lots of money:*
I don't think we will ever completely; cut rock salt out of the program. 
•	If used right you, Anti-Ice and De-Ice you can save up to 1/3 of your salt.
•	Pre-wetting Salt, you will get better results; therefore, saving more salt.
•	Liquid will never be able to do what rock salt can. 
•	It breaks down too fast for some applications therefore you need to still keep salt in the barn.
*
One thing, I have yet to hear on this site, is how this needs to be used as a tool*
•	If you're planning, on using this as a deicer, you need to plan on plowing more.
• Pre-Treat / Pre-Wet / Deice are things you can do with liquid.
*As Dale Keep says: *•	Plows don't melt snow
•	Deicers don't move snow.
•	We need to use all our tools to have the best snow program.

*Inclosing let me give you some background info:*
I have been studying Liquid Brine, for about three years now. I have been very lucky to be able to visit and talk to guys from the OHIO DEPT of Transportation. There I was able to look over the brine plants, Talk to their people, Look over there charts and numbers. I also been able to go to some classes where Dale Keep has speak some other classes and stuff that has been offered.
This is newer to the contractor side of things, and there is still a lot of info out there, and it makes me mad to see members of this site, trying to learn about liquid and being mislead on some things.
This is the bulk of my thread, and I will add to it as needed.
Thanks,
Clap


----------



## dannyslawn

Thanks for your insight. Our company is starting to experiment with liquids. Last year we started using treated salt. This year we will experiment with pre-treating some walks with a liquid Mag mix.


----------



## Superior L & L

Well put, i am replacing one of our salters with a liquid unit. I am sure a bunch of "Know it alls" are going to churp in now


----------



## toby4492

Clapper&Company;652954 said:


> This is the bulk of my thread, and I will add to it as needed.
> Thanks,
> Clap


You mean you are gonna make more posts 

I.....................I......................I just can't believe that Ron 

Great post by the way and thanks for the information.:salute:


----------



## turboguy

Discussions can be a lot more interesting when you get someone who disagrees with the things someone says.

Unfortunately I can't disagree with much you say.

You said:

Liquid will never be able to do what rock salt can.

The other side of the coin is rock salt will never be able to do what liquids can. I am referring primarily to Anti-Icing.

The first Internet study I ever read sort of stuck in my mind, partially because it was the first study I read but also the results they had. Here is a link to that 6 year study.

http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/weather/best_practices/casestudies/007.pdf

In their studies they reduced materials by 83% and time by 62%. That is a far cry from the 30% you are suggesting.

I thought one of the interesting parts of that study was they also reduced accidents by 83%. I think this is an interesting side of anti-icing. I have seen numerous other studies that show liquids make the roads much safer. One in NY in an area where they had an extremely high accident rate liquids totally eliminated the problem. I think liquids could be the body shops worst enemy.

I do agree with you that marketing liquids is tough right now. I think a big part of that is that for the general public it is a new area where there is little knowledge and in time it will become an easy thing to market and something many will demand, but for now that is a problem. I think one of the other parts that make it hard to market is they really don't see anything. If you plow snow, what you did is very visible. If you pretreat with liquids they don't see anything except perhaps that they have no snow and others do.

I agree too that there are a lot of different chemicals and many don't know much about what they are selling. Liquids have been around for a while and their use has been steadily increasing. I have talked to very few who were not happy with their results. I think we all need some trial and error and exchanging ideas here will help determine which chemicals work the best and are most cost effective.

I see some guys who want to go all liquid and I have seen a few have some success at it but I agree with you, it is a tool but not a total solution. It won't replace salt but it can help to provide better services, at lower cost and increased profits. Used as part of the package it can be a very good thing.

Your turn.


----------



## Sno4U

Thanks Clap. I've been reading alot of your posts. I have read ALOT of posts about liquid technologies and like Superior, have just started doing a little experimenting of my own. Call it my skeptical nature. Further informative posts are really appreciated and don't fall on deaf ears


----------



## JD Dave

turboguy;653064 said:


> Discussions can be a lot more interesting when you get someone who disagrees with the things someone says.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't disagree with much you say.
> 
> You said:
> 
> Liquid will never be able to do what rock salt can.
> 
> The other side of the coin is rock salt will never be able to do what liquids can. I am referring primarily to Anti-Icing.
> 
> The first Internet study I ever read sort of stuck in my mind, partially because it was the first study I read but also the results they had. Here is a link to that 6 year study.
> 
> http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/weather/best_practices/casestudies/007.pdf
> 
> In their studies they reduced materials by 83% and time by 62%. That is a far cry from the 30% you are suggesting.
> 
> I thought one of the interesting parts of that study was they also reduced accidents by 83%. I think this is an interesting side of anti-icing. I have seen numerous other studies that show liquids make the roads much safer. One in NY in an area where they had an extremely high accident rate liquids totally eliminated the problem. I think liquids could be the body shops worst enemy.
> 
> I do agree with you that marketing liquids is tough right now. I think a big part of that is that for the general public it is a new area where there is little knowledge and in time it will become an easy thing to market and something many will demand, but for now that is a problem. I think one of the other parts that make it hard to market is they really don't see anything. If you plow snow, what you did is very visible. If you pretreat with liquids they don't see anything except perhaps that they have no snow and others do.
> 
> I agree too that there are a lot of different chemicals and many don't know much about what they are selling. Liquids have been around for a while and their use has been steadily increasing. I have talked to very few who were not happy with their results. I think we all need some trial and error and exchanging ideas here will help determine which chemicals work the best and are most cost effective.
> 
> I see some guys who want to go all liquid and I have seen a few have some success at it but I agree with you, it is a tool but not a total solution. It won't replace salt but it can help to provide better services, at lower cost and increased profits. Used as part of the package it can be a very good thing.
> 
> Your turn.


What do roads have to do with parking lots? Your trying to sell products to people that do parking lots not roads, so try and explain to me how they are the same? Most of the savings on roads is due to salt bounce and salt bounce doesn't matter in a parking lot.


----------



## Grn Mtn

since salt and liquids work better at different temps and moisture count, is there a system that can control the amount of product applied to make sure under/over application stays in check? maybe a computer linked to a ground temp laser, humidity sensor, and your vehicles speed which then activates your spreaders throughput?


----------



## Grn Mtn

something people haven't mentioned is when you've "saved X amount of " salt you've had to replace that with liquids, so what, if any, are the actual dollar's saved? was this done with a different truck (aka extra trip) or accomplished with the same vehicle and route schedule. does anyone have numbers for this? (not asking for hard earned trade secrets here just examples based on your real world findings)


----------



## Grampa Plow

Grn Mtn;653118 said:


> since salt and liquids work better at different temps and moisture count, is there a system that can control the amount of product applied to make sure under/over application stays in check? maybe a computer linked to a ground temp laser, humidity sensor, and your vehicles speed which then activates your spreaders throughput?


Holy Crap...most of the people on here have 1, 2, or 3 plows, some maybe more. ON board computers with lasers, humidity sensors, etc. Who has the money for all of that? One end of our parking lot will more than likely be the same as the other end. Like someone said, some of that stuff is more for street plowing, which most of us don't do.


----------



## turboguy

JD Dave;653115 said:


> What do roads have to do with parking lots? Your trying to sell products to people that do parking lots not roads, so try and explain to me how they are the same? Most of the savings on roads is due to salt bounce and salt bounce doesn't matter in a parking lot.


Good point Dave. I agree there are differences but let me ask you this. If no one is concerned about bounce, why the interest in pre-wetting?

I agree with most of what Clap said but am a little bored today and feel like playing devils advocate.


----------



## JD Dave

turboguy;653182 said:


> Good point Dave. I agree there are differences but let me ask you this. If no one is concerned about bounce, why the interest in pre-wetting?
> 
> I agree with most of what Clap said but am a little bored today and feel like playing devils advocate.


The only benifit I have seen with prewetting is when it's very cold, bounce means nothing in a parking lot. Actually you get a better spread with dry salt then wet.


----------



## turboguy

Grn Mtn;653118 said:


> since salt and liquids work better at different temps and moisture count, is there a system that can control the amount of product applied to make sure under/over application stays in check? maybe a computer linked to a ground temp laser, humidity sensor, and your vehicles speed which then activates your spreaders throughput?


There are GPS and Radar controlled units that will speed up the flow and slow down the flow as your speed changes and shut off the unit if you stop. They are not cheap. I have not seen any linked to ground temperature which would be a good feature. Perhaps the next time I am talking to the guys that make those things I will pass that suggestion along. There is a thing called a Raytek gun that uses infrared to read ground temperature which really is more important than air temp in using liquids. I have not seen too many guys using these but it is a nice tool. In case someone is interested in them you can find them on Ebay but don't go for the cheap models, the ones selling in the $ 250 range are pretty good.


----------



## turboguy

Grn Mtn;653123 said:


> something people haven't mentioned is when you've "saved X amount of " salt you've had to replace that with liquids, so what, if any, are the actual dollar's saved? was this done with a different truck (aka extra trip) or accomplished with the same vehicle and route schedule. does anyone have numbers for this? (not asking for hard earned trade secrets here just examples based on your real world findings)


It seems to me a lot of the guys are in their first year with liquids or at least there are a lot of guys just starting in. I am not discounting that there are guys who have been doing it for a while, just a lot that are pretty new. Once winter gets a little further along that seems to me that it would be an interesting thread.

I have a feeling there will be a pretty wide range of costs. I see guys paying 40 cents a gallon or even a lot less and guys paying 5 bucks a gallon. I see guys applying at 20 gallons an acre and guys applying at 100 gallons an acre. I think a lot of the data coming from people selling material is somewhere between being a little over optimistic and being BS but it seems like most expect some good savings. A thread where people detailed what they did accomplish seems like it would be beneficial.

Most of the guys I talk to seem to be using the same vehicle. Some might want to think about baffle balls or they may find themselves plowing something they did not mean to.


----------



## Clapper&Company

turboguy;653182 said:


> Good point Dave. I agree there are differences but let me ask you this. If no one is concerned about bounce, why the interest in pre-wetting?
> 
> I agree with most of what Clap said but am a little bored today and feel like playing devils advocate.


You can play devils advocate all you want.

But as dave said roads and parking lots theres nothing the same about them.

I'm with dave bounce dosent mean alot to me either. its in the lot so its doing what we need it to.

Pre-wet works good in the cold, thats why we do it.


----------



## Clapper&Company

*Heres something you might like to know*

The big shots of for the Ohio Dept of Trans, says brine is the greatest thing ever!

If you talk to the guys at the outpost, like I do.

Pre-treat saves them at the most 30mins of time.

But by the time you factor in the 20ton of salt they used to make it, The overtime they paid, the Loader, power to run they brine plant.

They could of called out the crews a hour sooner, and still saved money + 20ton of salt in a truck would go alot longer.


----------



## Superior L & L

Thats funny you say that about making the brine. There was a article in the local paper yesterday that our county had just spent $75,000 on a brine maker.


----------



## SpeedyGreenInc

Do any of you try the liquid magic - 0 or the salt treated with it? That product is non corrosive so that should be an easier selling point and save alot on equipment wear.


----------



## kipcom

My turn to chime in 

We have studied and experimented with the use of "Liquid De-icer" application and have concluded that on roadways and parking areas we spent more in labor to apply + the cost of the material and this resulted in only minutes of time savings. We did also run liquid test sites and applied it to walkways,steps and Handicapped areas. This resulted in hours of time savings for our hand labor crews due to the fact the liquid kept the snow and ice from bonding to the surface and made hand shoveling and snow blower use much faster. The amount of time spent to apply the liquid was only a couple of hours and we saved many hours in labor.

State highway departments use it to keep the snow and ice from bonding to the road surface. This speeds up the reaction time of other chemicals to melt and "evaporate" the moisture on the road. ( Key word >> Evaporation ).

Sorry Clapper, didnt mean to steal the show from you but we have studied the use of liquid ice melt for many years and have only one use for it..... Sidewalks !


----------



## Clapper&Company

kipcom;653476 said:


> My turn to chime in
> 
> We have studied and experimented with the use of "Liquid De-icer" application and have concluded that on roadways and parking areas we spent more in labor to apply + the cost of the material and this resulted in only minutes of time savings. We did also run liquid test sites and applied it to walkways,steps and Handicapped areas. This resulted in hours of time savings for our hand labor crews due to the fact the liquid kept the snow and ice from bonding to the surface and made hand shoveling and snow blower use much faster. The amount of time spent to apply the liquid was only a couple of hours and we saved many hours in labor.
> 
> State highway departments use it to keep the snow and ice from bonding to the road surface. This speeds up the reaction time of other chemicals to melt and "evaporate" the moisture on the road. ( Key word >> Evaporation ).
> 
> Sorry Clapper, didnt mean to steal the show from you but we have studied the use of liquid ice melt for many years and have only one use for it..... Sidewalks !


I Agree with you, on sidewalks there gold. Saves alot of time and money


----------



## Clapper&Company

SpeedyGreenInc;653413 said:


> Do any of you try the liquid magic - 0 or the salt treated with it? That product is non corrosive so that should be an easier selling point and save alot on equipment wear.


Im not sold on it it, due to cost and a few other reasons.

If your treating 100's of tons it might be worth it but baggs or small amounts of bulk i dont think so


----------



## Bossman 92

What's up Clap, are you using liquids now? 

We thought about it long and hard and decided to buy more salt with the money we planned on spending on liquids and the sprayer.

Bossman


----------



## szorno

Interesting discussion here. We have been using liquids exclusively for 9 years. Colorado has very different snow & weather than midwest & east. Dale Keep is the generally accepted authority and when he says plows don't melt snow and liquids don't move it, he is right. 
The similarity to roads is in application rates and road surfaces. My parking lots have a similar texture & surface to the nearby roads. They are also a similar temperature. My application rates are therfore similar. So do not throw out your local DOT experience. Temper it with logic. 
Also, this summer's SIMA symposium will feature a whole track on anti-icing and de-icing. Start planning to be in Louisville, KY in June.


----------



## Clapper&Company

Scott, 

Your right Dale is alsome! Also over here in the east we get alot of wet snow. 

I Agree KY this year will be great!


----------



## JRSlawn

I have used some liquids this season and have had good results. Ron do you even have a liquid setup? Have you ever applied any liquids? We don't plan on replacing rock salt I am just using it in certain situations and saving money over the application of rock salt. I bought rock salt for 100 a ton delivered per semi load. Some of my customers like banks like it due to the amount of damage rock salt does to there carpet. I also spray it at a large trucking hub we have and they are very impressed.


----------



## The MAG Man

I've been at this a long time with liquids. We sold the first liquid calcium salt pre-wetting system in New England in 1978 to the City of Haverhill, MA, so that puts us at 30+ years of experience in pre-wetting applications. We sold liquids for dust control and concrete admixtures for decades prior to that so I'd like to put my view here from the perspective of someone who has been in the liquid deicers business for over 35 years, and with pre-wetting salt for 30 years.

Liquids are an enhancer. They are not a replacement. They enhance certain activities such as anti-icing/pretreatment where you prevent the snow from freezing to the pavement in the initial stages. They enhance salt by pre-wetting it and letting it work at lower temperatures by jump starting the brining process, and preventing salt from blowing off the road as readily as it would if not pre-wetted.

Like all the equipment you use as a snowfighter, liquids come with a cost both for the material and the equipment. You have to consider if the benefits outweigh the costs in your situation.

In my opinion, and based solely on my own experience of 35 years of working with liquids, liquids work great when used properly. They can't replace dry materials. They can't melt the first "X" inches of snow if pre-treated. There is more mis-information on liquids in the market than there is factual and correct information.

This one will send everyone into a tailspin: As far as pre-wetting is concerned, it doesn't matter which liquid you use; calcium, magnesium, salt brine, Magic, or Super duper #9 - they are all the same as far as pre-wetting goes. For anti-icing, there are DEFINITELY differences and you better know what you are doing if you going to to be spraying liquids directly on the surface prior to the onset of snow. You can get yourself jammed up quickly if you make some very innocent mistakes, so know exactly what you are doing or don't use them.

There is a distinct difference between the published reports from public roads officials in arid mountain states and the expectations of private plowing contractors down in the flatlands of the humid east. Take the data and information you read from high elevations and throw it away if you plan to use liquids for anti-icing direct application any where east of Denver. While the DOT might know exactly what to use on the mountain pass at elevation 8200' that information is absolutely not applicable to the parking lot in Philadelphia or Cleveland. Fahgettaboutit.

Can private contractors benefit from the use liquids? Maybe - it depends on your situation. Can private contractors (East of Denver) replace bulk road salt with liquid? Not a chance in my 35 years of experience working with liquids.

One thing we preach heavily is ground speed controls if you are going to direct apply liquids. If you exceed 25-30 gallons per lane mile (25 gallons/acre) of either liquid calcium or magnesium, you can expect trouble will eventually find you. Salt brine you're a little safer since it does not snot up like calcium and magnesium do in high humidity environments, or if it doesn't snow. This is my experience and my view and others may see it differently. 

We have had some abnormal snow years recently during the times when many have started playing with liquids for the first time and conditions have been forgiving allowing people to get away with things they shouldn't be able to get away with, but it only takes one school bus sliding into a telephone pole while turning around in your parking lot to test your liability insurance limits. The problem for most with liquids is that prior to the onset of snow, people see a black and wet pavement surface and assume it has the same friction coefficient (traction) as a water dampened surface and IT DOES NOT. Specifically, if you have a dribble bar designed to put out 25 gallons/acre while you drive 15 mph, what happens at the turns and entrance where your speed is now 5 mph? You put out 75+ gallons per acre in that spot! Therein lies the potential problem for the private contractor using liquids: You innocently over-apply the liquid and grease up the surface in the place you can least afford it - on turns and at the entrance.

There is no public works applications of liquids for anti-icing that do not have ground speed controls on the trucks to vary the application rate to match the vehicle speed. They put out x gallons/lane mile whether they are going 3 mph or 30 mph. Most private contractors don't want to drop $12-$18k into a full on anti-icing unit with sophisticated ground speed controllers. solenoids and anti-siphon features. Municipal government won't outfit a truck without these features. So whatever you read from DPW and public works reports don't apply to you guys in most cases.

The last comment on liquids is that many private contractors fail to remember that they are adding at least 70% water to the surface they are tying to de-ice when they spread liquids. You are adding to the problem so you have to compensate for that added moisture properly.

Liquids work, but they are not for everybody and they are by no means the second coming. Use them right use them smart and they can help you at a price. Use them improperly and they will bite you at a severe cost.


----------



## Clapper&Company

Great Post !!!

Glad you join in here.


You got some good points. 

I think sometimes the members on here forget were not all in one guys grarge talking were all over the map and what works for one of us willnt for others. 

I have hear of storys where Contractors and DOT's have went out and treated a road, and over applyed or the conditions was not right and they ended up doing worst then better. They did nothing but make staking rinks.


----------



## Clapper&Company

Bossman 92;654521 said:


> What's up Clap, are you using liquids now?
> 
> We thought about it long and hard and decided to buy more salt with the money we planned on spending on liquids and the sprayer.
> 
> Bossman


Hey Drew!

Were testing it out. We have been doing some test runs and trying stuff out.

For sidewalks using Liq is working out good, saving us alot of time.

However, when 90% of your accounts are per-push why would you want to pre-treat lots?


----------



## Clapper&Company

JRSlawn;654647 said:


> I have used some liquids this season and have had good results. Ron do you even have a liquid setup? Have you ever applied any liquids? We don't plan on replacing rock salt I am just using it in certain situations and saving money over the application of rock salt. I bought rock salt for 100 a ton delivered per semi load. Some of my customers like banks like it due to the amount of damage rock salt does to there carpet. I also spray it at a large trucking hub we have and they are very impressed.


Jeff, Yes were using it, and we got a small setup.

Were using it on sidewalks, a few seasonal and some of other areas like Bank drive-thrs and seasonal accounts.

It will be next year most likey, before we move in to a full scale Liq program, but we might get to it this year yet.

I been keeping the flat bed around just to make a spray truck out of it


----------



## redman6565

so clap you're saying i can't de-ice my lots with 100% salt brine? damnittt haha


----------



## Clapper&Company

LOL,

You can de-ice with Liq depending on the Suf. Temp and amount of snow your trying to melt ect.

But it most likey not going to be worth it.


----------



## redman6565

good thing i still use straight rock salt...


----------



## redman6565

i know everyone is in love with liquid additives and what not but nothing, and i mean nothing beats rock salt. make all the claims you want about freezing temps and activation temps but listen, when its 10 F outside and its sunny, plow a little more often and dont be so lazy and cars will drive over the salt, and believe it or not the salt activates just fine.


----------



## Clapper&Company

redman6565;654753 said:


> i know everyone is in love with liquid additives and what not but nothing, and i mean nothing beats rock salt. make all the claims you want about freezing temps and activation temps but listen, when its 10 F outside and its sunny, plow a little more often and dont be so lazy and cars will drive over the salt, and believe it or not the salt activates just fine.


Yes Sir, If you know how to place it so the cars will track it you dont need as much either


----------



## Mean4x4

*Salt pricing in NY*

How much are you paying for salt in NY, Clapper? We're between 100-135.ton depending on the day...


----------



## T-MAN

redman6565;654753 said:


> i know everyone is in love with liquid additives and what not but nothing, and i mean nothing beats rock salt. make all the claims you want about freezing temps and activation temps but listen, when its 10 F outside and its sunny, plow a little more often and dont be so lazy and cars will drive over the salt, and believe it or not the salt activates just fine.


This works great for day time storms, but what about when you had a clipper drop 2" at 1am, you plowed and the temps dropped to 5 degree's at 5am ? Straight rock salt means double to triple the normal application rate, and maybe with a prayer you will have black kinda for when the manager rolls in around 7:30am.
Prewet with some good sauce, you drop your normal amount, watch the lot turning black before you finish, and your home in bed by 6am. Not driving around, or loading an extra couple tons for KYA syndrome.
Plain Rock salt has its place for sure, but below 18 degree's, you have to way over apply to get good results in a timely manor. With salt at $150 a ton here delivered, profits will disappear quickly if you need triple to get good results. When rock salt is $50 a ton who cares, but not at $150.

To many times I have been screwed, or just flat run out while on the route and need to keep going back and loading
more salt.
Liquids rock, when ya use em right.


----------



## Clapper&Company

Todd,

I agree Pre-wet you salt, is a good use for Liq.

Mean 4x4

Prices for salt are all over the map here in ohio.

Bagged is $215 Skid for 80's
Bulk Picked up from the yard $125.00 Ton
Bulk Truck to the shop (100 Ton) $75.00 Ton


----------



## SpeedyGreenInc

T-MAN;655179 said:


> This works great for day time storms, but what about when you had a clipper drop 2" at 1am, you plowed and the temps dropped to 5 degree's at 5am ? Straight rock salt means double to triple the normal application rate, and maybe with a prayer you will have black kinda for when the manager rolls in around 7:30am.
> Prewet with some good sauce, you drop your normal amount, watch the lot turning black before you finish, and your home in bed by 6am. Not driving around, or loading an extra couple tons for KYA syndrome.
> Plain Rock salt has its place for sure, but below 18 degree's, you have to way over apply to get good results in a timely manor. With salt at $150 a ton here delivered, profits will disappear quickly if you need triple to get good results. When rock salt is $50 a ton who cares, but not at $150.
> 
> To many times I have been screwed, or just flat run out while on the route and need to keep going back and loading
> more salt.
> Liquids rock, when ya use em right.


Exactly right, and with the money you just saved on salt, fuel, vehicle wear and tear, and labor if you add that up for every storm I am sure you paid for your liquid spray setup and the material since they dont cost that much anyways. Now when you start your second year its just that much more profit since you already covered the cost of the liquid setup. Just makes no sense to me to not use liquid.


----------



## coldcoffee

I just fill my back pack sprayer w/ rubbing alcohol...I hardly have to even plow anymore
...and if its real cold I just light the tip...also there is no more need for strobes:angry:


----------



## kipcom

ARRrrrrgh...ok,,, here I go again...to understand the "concept" of a liquid-deicer you must understand that the goal is to create enough >heat< at the surface to cause the snow or ice to become a "liquid" and then become a "vapor". This is called evaporation. If you can not accomplish this, then you will fail at your application. Also remember the SUN is your friend and these de-icing methods work best during the sunlight hours of the day.

WHHhhheeeewwwww ..oh ya....Im a science major also ussmileyflag

Just trying to help people understand the concept is all.......... KH


----------



## brett.archer

Can I make liquid ice melt at my home? Can I buy it from anyone in or around Montana?


----------



## Superior L & L

brett.archer;663023 said:


> Can I make liquid ice melt at my home? Can I buy it from anyone in or around Montana?


Yes you can

4 parts table salt 
2.75 parts water

payup


----------



## dieseld

Grampa Plow;653179 said:


> Holy Crap...most of the people on here have 1, 2, or 3 plows, some maybe more. ON board computers with lasers, humidity sensors, etc. Who has the money for all of that? One end of our parking lot will more than likely be the same as the other end. Like someone said, some of that stuff is more for street plowing, which most of us don't do.


You should not underestimate people. Many of us are willing to spend that kind of money to do a better job and know it. So many guys like to charge X amount of dollars for X amount of tons spread onto a lot--and my favorite part is those guys have no clue how much they just spread! Meanwhile I am taking over that account next year with a set price for salt and blowing the customers mind that they have been taken advantage of by the guessing games people play on salt spreading. If there is a way to work more efficiently and more profitably, how can you complain about the price of that purchase? You just simply look at the NUMBERS and the BOTTOM LINE. This is a great post in my opinion as I have been trying to educate myself on the liquids also in order to increase my margins and make ice control "easier" with the crazy price of rock salt. It is amazing how we all want to jump on a new "trend", myself included. Thank you Mr. Clapper for this post.


----------



## Clapper&Company

Your Welcome for the post.

You just hit the nail on the head with the numbers game! 90% of our salt accounts are set price.


----------



## Soutern Indiana

wesportWe are using 32 % liquid calcium chloride,and it has been working great for us for the second season, due to the high prices of salt last year we went to this exclusively, and were able to keep our 40+ accounst all satisfied, while not getting futher into our pocket. It will melt the swmall acumulations down also you just have to apply alittle more material, still cheaper than salt. Anyone want to buy acouple of SS western salt spreaders!


----------



## digit

How do you guys charge for liquid ? per app. or gallon or acre.


----------



## JLO

southern IN...... where are you getting your product?


----------



## Clapper&Company

digit;670026 said:


> How do you guys charge for liquid ? per app. or gallon or acre.


I dont know that many of use are charging for Liquid, its a tool you can use to help speed up your times on your seasonals... therefore, saving time and making you more money.

Also, Alot of contractors are using it to melt light amounts of snow!

Its also a great tool to, pre wet at the spreader with.


----------



## Clapper&Company

I have seen alot of talk on the site about Liquids in the last few weeks.... so i wanted to bring this thread back alive!


----------



## creativedesigns

Clapper&Company;818452 said:


> I have seen alot of talk on the site about Liquids in the last few weeks.... so i wanted to bring this thread back alive!


If you were Mario, firepower would work well to melt ice!


----------



## Clapper&Company

Are you trying to be like GV?


----------



## terrapro

Clapper&Company;818463 said:


> Are you trying to be like GV?


No, someone is just tapping into the margaritas alittle early. 

Oh wait, that would be like GrandView also 

Just kiddin guys...:laughing: <--I love the new smily


----------



## ff610

I've been researching liquid for a couple years, and learned a lot of great information on this site last season. Its not that cut and dry from what I've found. I've talked with engineers, state employees, etc and everyone has a slightly different answer as to what works best. What I have learned though, is liquid will help save some product, maybe some money, but it will never replace rock salt. I look at what the liquid does to the surface when it dries, and agree it works best for sidewalks. Thanks for all the info guys!!


----------



## Clapper&Company

Your right it will never replace rock salt.... Its just another tool we can use.


----------



## Bajak

Boy I'm glad I read this entire thread.

I am just wondering about using liquid for pre treating sidewalks. Usually when there is only a few inches of snow I"ll shovel them off. Whenever there is drifting or heavy snow I plow them off but my pet peeve with plowing them off is the thin film of ice that sticks to the concrete and I end up using more salt to melt it away or have to scrape it off.. It would certainly save me time on site if I could plow the walks every time for the price of a gallon of brine.
I have 1500 square ft. of walk to do. A gallon should be enough as a pre treatment ?


----------



## lmarine

Ok what about spaying on driveways residential in a condo complex will this stuff work ? but i must say you guys scared the [email protected]# out of me about saying over applying will make a skating rink, i mean if i try this out on driveways and over apply these old timers will be falling on their as# i was not aware this stuff freezes, or is that a rare occasion?, i am only as smart as my dumbest employee. can i spay the porch caps and steps ? Will this ever hit the homeowner end user like five gallon pails available at home depot with a pump sprayer? make you wonder I am almost nervous about trying this now!


----------



## lmarine

oh and one other thing i heard if you dont store youre spayer truck inside that all that stuff freezes up on the spayer unit fact or fiction?


----------



## kpmsnow

I use ICE-BAN and their are a lot of nights when I will bring the spray truck home.Due to the fact that it ia a 4 door dually it sits outside and I have never had the thing freeze up yet. The motor on the gas powered unit isn't very happy with me when it has to sit out but other then that no problems.


----------



## Kubota 8540

lmarine;899740 said:


> Ok what about spaying on driveways residential in a condo complex will this stuff work ? but i must say you guys scared the [email protected]# out of me about saying over applying will make a skating rink, i mean if i try this out on driveways and over apply these old timers will be falling on their as# i was not aware this stuff freezes, or is that a rare occasion?, i am only as smart as my dumbest employee. can i spay the porch caps and steps ? Will this ever hit the homeowner end user like five gallon pails available at home depot with a pump sprayer? make you wonder I am almost nervous about trying this now!


I can make ice by under applying rock salt, I have enough experience not to do that, why worry about the liquids, apply it properly.


----------



## Clapper&Company

Right, It can happen but when done properly its not going to be a problem


----------



## Kubota 8540

lmarine;899763 said:


> oh and one other thing i heard if you dont store youre spayer truck inside that all that stuff freezes up on the spayer unit fact or fiction?


Its liquid de-icer it shouldn't freeze up in the sprayer?


----------



## kpmsnow

I have heard horror stories about freezing up also. My spray truck is in the driveway here at the house tonight. I just went out and took a look. Still liquid, no slushy! It is 10.9 deg ambient, and -2 deg wind chill, which doesn't really matter but adds dramatic effect to the post lol.


----------



## Kubota 8540

kpmsnow;899817 said:


> I have heard horror stories about freezing up also. My spray truck is in the driveway here at the house tonight. I just went out and took a look. Still liquid, no slushy! It is 10.9 deg ambient, and -2 deg wind chill, which doesn't really matter but adds dramatic effect to the post lol.


I have some horror stories with rock salt solidifying in a truck 20+ years ago. When I first started I use to buy rock salt by the 2.5 ton load on the 1 ton dump as I needed it.
How long have you been using the liquid?


----------



## kpmsnow

I got hooked on ICE-BAN 3 years ago now it has become almost an obsession. I like the science involved. Yeah I have heard of a guy who brought his salt inby rail and when it got yo him it was a solid block! Man that would suck


----------



## Kubota 8540

I'm certain I'm not the oldest on here, but when I started salting I was buying as I needed and was paying $ 7.00 ton. It was from an open stock pile, they loaded it on my truck, drove it home, backed it in the heated house garage. Went back out the next morning and simply was amazed at how hard it was. I actually stood on top of it as if it were concrete. It eventually came out via spade and pick, hours later. Never left salt in anything again. That was a day I learned a new word.......SOLIDIFY ! The thought of a de-icer freezing up in the sprayer like a nasty popsicle and splitting the fittings would be costly.


----------



## Kubota 8540

kpmsnow;899855 said:


> I got hooked on ICE-BAN 3 years ago now it has become almost an obsession. I like the science involved. Yeah I have heard of a guy who brought his salt inby rail and when it got yo him it was a solid block! Man that would suck


The science involved with rock salt is kind of funny. To melt ice apply rock salt, if its not melting apply more rock salt, if its now getting to cold and its not really melting re-apply with more rock salt and by this time after all the applications of rock salt you can no longer see said ice because of all the rock salt...SUCCESS the ice is now gone ,but I just cant see that same strategy working with liquids. With each liquid having its own rate/acre you need to find out what works and know your product well. Its strange you would say obsession because I have been that way since last December with all the liquids.I now make 300 gallons/hr of 23.3% salt brine,small scale but works real well, I have sprayed 32% liquid calcium chloride @ -7 degrees, blended salt brine with LCC. Built my own equipment to make brine, built my own sprayers, electric , gas, and pto powered. Also have custom built sprayers for others. Obsession, yeah I think so.


----------



## flyweed

Kubota, I like the way you think....and talk. I am making saltbrine now on a small scale and had a chance just this last storm to use it before the storm to pre-wet my driveway and now after I blew the snow off, to melt the hardpack underneath...my driveway is NOW clear!!! I am sold on liquid. I used my Agri-fab pull behind lawn sprayer, it sprays a 4 foot path on each pass, and it worked great! I am totally sold on liquid..no more tracking damn salt bits and sand into the house!!

Dan


----------



## MRBILLS

Kubota 8540;899962 said:


> The science involved with rock salt is kind of funny. To melt ice apply rock salt, if its not melting apply more rock salt, if its now getting to cold and its not really melting re-apply with more rock salt and by this time after all the applications of rock salt you can no longer see said ice because of all the rock salt...SUCCESS the ice is now gone ,but I just cant see that same strategy working with liquids. With each liquid having its own rate/acre you need to find out what works and know your product well. Its strange you would say obsession because I have been that way since last December with all the liquids.I now make 300 gallons/hr of 23.3% salt brine,small scale but works real well, I have sprayed 32% liquid calcium chloride @ -7 degrees, blended salt brine with LCC. Built my own equipment to make brine, built my own sprayers, electric , gas, and pto powered. Also have custom built sprayers for others. Obsession, yeah I think so.


what size nozzles you are using for the calcium chloride?


----------



## Kubota 8540

MRBILLS;901632 said:


> what size nozzles you are using for the calcium chloride?


I use the Teejet SJ-3 fertilizer tips. It is a triple stream nozzle. I also use Teejet turbo wide angle broadcast tips. Size depends on the application rate or gallons per acre and speed at which I want to spray.


----------



## MRBILLS

Kubota 8540;901661 said:


> I use the Teejet SJ-3 fertilizer tips. It is a triple stream nozzle. I also use Teejet turbo wide angle broadcast tips. Size depends on the application rate or gallons per acre and speed at which I want to spray.


I used teejet # 5 stream nozzle's and they got clog up, now I'm going to use # 10 nozzle's i hope they wont get clog up.


----------



## Kubota 8540

MRBILLS;901706 said:


> I used teejet # 5 stream nozzle's and they got clog up, now I'm going to use # 10 nozzle's i hope they wont get clog up.


What kind of liquid were you spraying?


----------



## Kubota 8540

flyweed;901563 said:


> Kubota, I like the way you think....and talk. I am making saltbrine now on a small scale and had a chance just this last storm to use it before the storm to pre-wet my driveway and now after I blew the snow off, to melt the hardpack underneath...my driveway is NOW clear!!! I am sold on liquid. I used my Agri-fab pull behind lawn sprayer, it sprays a 4 foot path on each pass, and it worked great! I am totally sold on liquid..no more tracking damn salt bits and sand into the house!!
> 
> Dan


A lot cheaper too. For a cheap home brew it works suprisingly well. I've since started adding liquid calcium chloride to mine and that really helps. 90/10 mix. Home owner or for the parking lots its a way to save or make some xtra cash easily. Woooooo sand don't like that stuff any where near my house.


----------



## Kubota 8540

digit;670026 said:


> How do you guys charge for liquid ? per app. or gallon or acre.


So far, same as salt. Flat rate per app, but having a choice of different liquids I can use might complicate the cost issue, will probably use the pricier liquid as a price guide, but it will average out in the end. Sometimes the customer will win and most of the time I will win. Sounds fair to me. After all this is not my hobby and the customer will know exactly what it is going to cost them each time I'm there. I don't like the thought of having to keep track of how many gallons I put down and try to prove it to a customer. Thats to much room for disagreement.


----------



## MRBILLS

Kubota 8540;901817 said:


> What kind of liquid were you spraying?


I use calcium chloride brine.


----------



## Kubota 8540

MRBILLS;902370 said:


> I use calcium chloride brine.


Well brine? Is this the nozzle StreamJet Solid Stream Spray Nozzle, Stainless Steel (0005 Orifice Size)? Whats the spacing of the nozzles?


----------



## MRBILLS

kubota 8540;902406 said:


> well brine? Is this the nozzle streamjet solid stream spray nozzle, stainless steel (0005 orifice size)? Whats the spacing of the nozzles?


yes well brine, the nozzle's are solid stream, not ss, the spacing is 10' apart, i used 0005 strainer before the pump, and the # 5 got clog
now i got # 10 nozzle's and i use the Little screens # 0005 inside the nozzle's hope this work, or this are not the right nozzle's for spraying well brine?
Any info on this?
Thanks.


----------



## Kubota 8540

I have read statements and I have heard some guys say if you over apply liquids it will freeze and turn into an ice skating rink. My question is how and why that would happen? Rock salt an area that requires X amount of rock salt, it works the way it should. Rock salt same area with 2X amount of rock salt, it works faster but leaves unused salt on pavement. Therefore wasted product, waste of money. Now apply liquid at recommended app rate called X. Apply 2X on same area it stops working, freezes, and turns to ice? That just doesn't make sense to me. For a lack of knowing exactly how that could happen, is it more likely the person applying the liquid is maybe trying not to have to plow first, and using the liquid as a liquid plow?


----------



## Kubota 8540

MRBILLS;902420 said:


> yes well brine, the nozzle's are solid stream, not ss, the spacing is 10' apart, i used 0005 strainer before the pump, and the # 5 got clog
> now i got # 10 nozzle's and i use the Little screens # 0005 inside the nozzle's hope this work, or this are not the right nozzle's for spraying well brine?
> Any info on this?
> Thanks.


I can not say for sure, because I have never sprayed well brine. ( although I would like to) My liquid cal is peladow ? This stuff is clear and clean, I think its food grade? The 2 things I have had a chance to run thru my sprayers are salt brine ( home brew ) and the peladow LCC. Don't have a problem with either using the nozzles I listed previously. I don't know what size orffice a 0005 is , but I think it only sprays about 48 gpa at mid pressure of 30 psi. To me that sounds small. I think the 0010 would be better, but you might have to speed up 1 or 2 mph to keep your gpa down. I don't use nozzle screens in any of my sprayers, had a problem plugging up 1 time and never put them back in, just a suction line strainer. I would have chosen a 0010 if I had set the spray bar up.


----------



## Deco

were not interested in liquid .

1) much too expensive 

2) much too expensive to sell or market 

3) distributors radius too far for pick-up 

but we like the concept and will eventually switch when prices are more competitive


----------



## Kubota 8540

Deco;902689 said:


> were not interested in liquid .
> 
> 1) much too expensive
> 
> 2) much too expensive to sell or market
> 
> 3) distributors radius too far for pick-up
> 
> but we like the concept and will eventually switch when prices are more competitive


1) I agree most are.
2) I agree most are.
3) absolutely
"but we like the concept and will eventually switch when prices are more competitive" and so will I , but I'm getting my equipment together now, working the bugs out, getting a liquid handling situation set up now , a little at a time and paying cash as I go. Handling and storing liquids is not as simple and cheap as ordering a load of salt and a $20 tarp.


----------



## ff610

Kubota 8540;902757 said:


> 1) I agree most are.
> 2) I agree most are.
> 3) absolutely
> "but we like the concept and will eventually switch when prices are more competitive" and so will I , but I'm getting my equipment together now, working the bugs out, getting a liquid handling situation set up now , a little at a time and paying cash as I go. Handling and storing liquids is not as simple and cheap as ordering a load of salt and a $20 tarp.


Jim
I expect I'll reduce my rock salt use by 40% roughly if all goes as I expect. Reducing my salt storage by 40% to me is huge. That's room for me to park another 2-3 trucks in my shop. I am spoiled and like loading in the heat! Also, comparing prices so far, I have bought my liquid spreader from you, 2 large storage tanks(used 2000 gal and 2500 gal), and a 1000 open tank for mixing my brine. Once I buy my plumbing accessories and valves etc, I'll still be less than what I was gonna spend on a new v-box spreader I was looking at. Now as we know it can be a little tough to find local distributors. But once I find them for all the liquids I wanna try I'll be set. My plan is to be the local distributor in my area so I can help provide others in my area the same options as I have. I don't expect to eliminate rock salt, just add some more tools for the arsenal! So far my customers have been very receptive to liquid. I expect the more I try, the more I'll be able to sell the service. Let me know how you like the ice ban also. I would be interested in trying some also. By the way, I can get you a couple tanks for 500 each. I believe they are 1500 gallons. Talk to ya soon.


----------



## Kubota 8540

ff610;905144 said:


> Jim
> I expect I'll reduce my rock salt use by 40% roughly if all goes as I expect. Reducing my salt storage by 40% to me is huge. That's room for me to park another 2-3 trucks in my shop. I am spoiled and like loading in the heat! Also, comparing prices so far, I have bought my liquid spreader from you, 2 large storage tanks(used 2000 gal and 2500 gal), and a 1000 open tank for mixing my brine. Once I buy my plumbing accessories and valves etc, I'll still be less than what I was gonna spend on a new v-box spreader I was looking at. Now as we know it can be a little tough to find local distributors. But once I find them for all the liquids I wanna try I'll be set. My plan is to be the local distributor in my area so I can help provide others in my area the same options as I have. I don't expect to eliminate rock salt, just add some more tools for the arsenal! So far my customers have been very receptive to liquid. I expect the more I try, the more I'll be able to sell the service. Let me know how you like the ice ban also. I would be interested in trying some also. By the way, I can get you a couple tanks for 500 each. I believe they are 1500 gallons. Talk to ya soon.


Its good to see you going about it that way. I was able to save you some good money on that unit. I call it a sweet spot. Where size and dollar value are correct in my opinion. I sold a twin to your unit to a local contractor yesterday. I'll be ordering parts for it tomorrow. I cut my salt order this year by 50%. I hope I didn't cut back too much? Once you get all set up I'll have to drive out and check it out. It doesn't take long to get spoiled loading inside in the heat.I'm Ordering a 2" electric pump this week for my brine setup. Then I'll be inside completely.I was on the same path as you when I started, but got a little side tracked building these units and selling them. But the bright side is all my liquid equipment is being paid for by selling them, so I don't mind at all! Did you get the 437's set up with quick connects? I like that idea. Thats how I'm going to do that from now on. I think you'll really like that new mix. I know I did! Good luck and post your results.


----------



## Grassman09

What electric pump would you recommend for a de iceing set up? I'm hooking up to a tote for the time being.

I was thinking of using a tuthill pump but the output is a little high and I'm not sure how I can throttle that down. The displacement of the pump is 15gpm. See 12volt pump here.

I'm using teejet nozzles (Red Cap) an HR8008-VS which will apply 59 GPA at 4 MPH, 48 GPA at 5 MPH, 40 GPA at 6 MPH, 30 GPA at 8 MPH, 24 GPA at 10 MPH 15.8 GPA at 15 MPH and 11.9 GPA at 20 MPH

I use the sugar beat stuff maybe a 50/50 blend with salt I have a buddy who can make me brine at his work.


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;916370 said:


> What electric pump would you recommend for a de iceing set up? I'm hooking up to a tote for the time being.
> 
> I was thinking of using a tuthill pump but the output is a little high and I'm not sure how I can throttle that down. The displacement of the pump is 15gpm. See 12volt pump here.
> 
> I'm using teejet nozzles (Red Cap) an HR8008-VS which will apply 59 GPA at 4 MPH, 48 GPA at 5 MPH, 40 GPA at 6 MPH, 30 GPA at 8 MPH, 24 GPA at 10 MPH 15.8 GPA at 15 MPH and 11.9 GPA at 20 MPH
> 
> I use the sugar beat stuff maybe a 50/50 blend with salt I have a buddy who can make me brine at his work.


I'd like to try that pump myself, but the old buy and try tactic seems to deter me from that. Best price I have seen on that pump was $435+tax+shipping. I dont think 1 would be able to pump a thicker liquid at those ratings. Depending if you are only going to spray one type of liquid or not. I like to set up sprayers that will hit the 100 gallon per acre at 5 mph then you can increase or decrease mph or change tips. The pump more than anything is what will limit the amount you spray. Pump output is rated at 0 psi open flow? What about at ? psi rating to get those tips to deliver the right gallons per acre?


----------



## Grassman09

$435+ Shipping where? Thats a good deal compared to what $680 from the link i provided.

That was one set of nozzles that were going to be added to the boom. I am copying another mfgs product and they were kind enough to tell me what type of nozzle they use.

The boom would be made out of 1 1/2 piping and i presume the pump is 2" I'll have to find a strainer for the system to.

The second set should do something like this. 
4 MPH 111 GPA, 5 MPH 89 GPA, 6 MPH 74 GPA, 8 MPH 56 GPA, 10 MPH 45 GPA, 12 MPH 37 GPA, 15 MPH 30 GPA, 20 MPH 22 GPA.

The 3rd set will be straight stream. 
GPA @ 4 MPH, 50 GPA at 6 MPH, 37 GPA at 8 MPH, 30 GPA at 10 MPH, 21 GPA at 14 MPH & 14.9 GPA at 20 MPH
You just rotate the spray body to go to the different nozzle, The radius is a 80 degrees.









What were you saying here?
*Pump output is rated at 0 psi open flow? What about at ? psi rating to get those tips to deliver the right gallons per acre? *
I wouldn't know until I would get a pump. What have you used for electric? I've seen some units with 9pm flow. Maybe Salt brine but not beat juice magic or ice ban.


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;916962 said:


> $435+ Shipping where? Thats a good deal compared to what $680 from the link i provided.
> 
> That was one set of nozzles that were going to be added to the boom. I am copying another mfgs product and they were kind enough to tell me what type of nozzle they use.
> 
> The boom would be made out of 1 1/2 piping and i presume the pump is 2" I'll have to find a strainer for the system to.
> 
> The second set should do something like this.
> 4 MPH 111 GPA, 5 MPH 89 GPA, 6 MPH 74 GPA, 8 MPH 56 GPA, 10 MPH 45 GPA, 12 MPH 37 GPA, 15 MPH 30 GPA, 20 MPH 22 GPA.
> 
> The 3rd set will be straight stream.
> GPA @ 4 MPH, 50 GPA at 6 MPH, 37 GPA at 8 MPH, 30 GPA at 10 MPH, 21 GPA at 14 MPH & 14.9 GPA at 20 MPH
> 
> You just rotate the spray body to go to the different nozzle, The radius is a 80 degrees.


http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.851.857/1356 for the pump
http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.811.823/3153 for the nozzles
The triple stream ( Teejet SJ-3 Black ) is my main nozzle tips.


----------



## Grassman09

Ok thanks for the link.

You like the SJ-3? How can I cover 3 lanes

Turbo Turf says this boom will do 3 lanes with the side nozzles


----------



## Kubota 8540

My one and only attempt with an electric pump was a 5 gpm demand pump. Only sprayed a couple times before I realized that was no where close to what I needed. That was my first sprayer. I estimated at the volume I got out of that pump I would need at least 4 of those. That seemed like a lot of electric to supply to the bed of the truck. So, I built a gas unit with 2" pump. That sprayer would handle 160 gallons per minute and any spray nozzles including boomless that I tried and sprayed almost 10' - 60' wide.
The tips are rated at 30-40-50-and so on. If the pump doesnt give a min of 30 psi you won't get the gpa from your nozzles.
I sprayed liquid calcium chloride with my small electric sprayer. Now I spray salt brine/ calcium chloride mix thru my sprayers.
Most of pumps are rated at wide open flow, no restrictions of any kind and not having to pull the liquid up any kind of distance. As well as I remember that electric pump has a low 30 psi max rating. Which is about all you need, but I like to have a min of 30 psi from a pump.
By chance you buy that electric pump, let me know what kind of pressure you can get out of it.
My pump on the back of the Kubota will put out approx 22 gal/min. I think that will handle most spray applications at 5-6 mph. So I would have to have the same amount with a min of 30 psi from an electric pump or 2?


----------



## Triple L

Grassman09;917013 said:


> Ok thanks for the link.
> 
> You like the SJ-3? How can I cover 3 lanes
> 
> Turbo Turf says this boom will do 3 lanes with the side nozzles


What kinda stuff did you pick up where you need to spray 3 lanes wide???

I think the higher volume pump is a good idea... You can always just use a diverter to reduce the volume its putting out and cycle that back into the tank...


----------



## Kubota 8540

When adding Teejet SJ-3's like this you can get 4-7 feet to the width depending on pressure.







Otherwise there is boom extender nozzles that can be added the the end of the boom. http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.811.816/3149 or http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.811.816/3151


----------



## Grassman09

The pump mounts on top of the tote I believe, but I think there is one that mounts onto the bottom as well. 

The back of the warehouse I look after is wide and its also crummy pavement or crumbly I should say. 

There are parts of a condo I look after that are wide also and then my driveway is 2 lanes wide. 

Guess I'll be stopping in a Rittenhouse this week. 

Thanks for the info Kubota.


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;917121 said:


> The pump mounts on top of the tote I believe, but I think there is one that mounts onto the bottom as well.
> 
> The back of the warehouse I look after is wide and its also crummy pavement or crumbly I should say.
> 
> There are parts of a condo I look after that are wide also and then my driveway is 2 lanes wide.
> 
> Guess I'll be stopping in a Rittenhouse this week.
> 
> Thanks for the info Kubota.


Yes there are different mountings possible with those pumps. Let me know what you end up with and the results. I'm always curious!


----------



## Grassman09

Kubota 8540;917137 said:


> Yes there are different mountings possible with those pumps. Let me know what you end up with and the results. I'm always curious!


Will do.. Prob wont get it done for a week or so until all the parts are sourced.

is that 1" hose you are using or 3/4" . I know from when i did my irrigation I went from 1/2 main from house to 3/4" outside. wish I could have done 3/4 main to 1". the water meter was in the wrong place.

Pump is 2" intake 1" out. should I keep it at 1" or go down to 3/4" ?

If I add those side nozzles I'm going to need a solenoid vale to control those?

Dave.


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;917576 said:


> Will do.. Prob wont get it done for a week or so until all the parts are sourced.
> 
> is that 1" hose you are using or 3/4" . I know from when i did my irrigation I went from 1/2 main from house to 3/4" outside. wish I could have done 3/4 main to 1". the water meter was in the wrong place.
> 
> Pump is 2" intake 1" out. should I keep it at 1" or go down to 3/4" ?
> 
> If I add those side nozzles I'm going to need a solenoid vale to control those?
> 
> Dave.


You could use a electric valve or use block off caps or a couple manual valves on the boom directly. Just depends on if you would need to turn them on or off often or if your like me and don't like getting out of the cab anymore than I have to? As far as size, I would try to keep the line as big as possible, allows more volume if necessary. So I'd keep it at 1". I would like to set up a dual electric sprayer on my silverado pickup capable of spraying 17' wide from a 84" boom. My main sprayer runs off the pto of the tractor and the other has a 2" gas powered pump.


----------



## Grassman09

Kubota 8540;917644 said:


> if your like me and don't like getting out of the cab anymore than I have to? .


I'm with ya there. that would suck having to turn valves all the time. I would like to set it up on a remote control if possible. But then things start to get $$. Yea I figured it was PTO powred. That would only make sense.



Kubota 8540;917644 said:


> I would like to set up a dual electric sprayer on my silverado pickup capable of spraying 17' wide from a 84" boom. My main sprayer runs off the pto of the tractor and the other has a 2" gas powered pump.


That would be nice. But why dual electric? You mean one pump for a hose real and one for the spray bar.

What nozzle would you use on a hose real for walks or spraying salt piles?


----------



## Kubota 8540

You can purchase a 1" electric valve for about $165.00 + shipping which works well. Remote? Not for me, give me something with wire and switches. Dual electric because of the volume I spray and speed I want to spray, never like coming up short. As far as hose nozzle, just about anything from garden hose nozzle to wand type, depends on how much you want to spend. The way I see it anytime you spray corrosives, either go quality and expensive, or go cheap and just replace when necessary. Spraying piles I would use something that puts down coarse drops and high volume.


----------



## STARSHIP

Kubota 8540;917715 said:


> You can purchase a 1" electric valve for about $165.00 + shipping which works well. Remote? Not for me, give me something with wire and switches. Dual electric because of the volume I spray and speed I want to spray, never like coming up short. As far as hose nozzle, just about anything from garden hose nozzle to wand type, depends on how much you want to spend. The way I see it anytime you spray corrosives, either go quality and expensive, or go cheap and just replace when necessary. Spraying piles I would use something that puts down coarse drops and high volume.


How about Underground sprinkler valves? $15-$35.


----------



## deicepro

STARSHIP;918215 said:


> How about Underground sprinkler valves? $15-$35.


Those valves close way to slow


----------



## MRBILLS

Kubota 8540;902674 said:


> I can not say for sure, because I have never sprayed well brine. ( although I would like to) My liquid cal is peladow ? This stuff is clear and clean, I think its food grade? The 2 things I have had a chance to run thru my sprayers are salt brine ( home brew ) and the peladow LCC. Don't have a problem with either using the nozzles I listed previously. I don't know what size orffice a 0005 is , but I think it only sprays about 48 gpa at mid pressure of 30 psi. To me that sounds small. I think the 0010 would be better, but you might have to speed up 1 or 2 mph to keep your gpa down. I don't use nozzle screens in any of my sprayers, had a problem plugging up 1 time and never put them back in, just a suction line strainer. I would have chosen a 0010 if I had set the spray bar up.


Hi! I'm back now, i went out today and used my new tee-jet # 0010 triple stream nozzle's,and the #0005 strainer it work very well, the only problem is when i transfer the liquid from the storage containers to the stationary container on the pickup at the bottom of the storage container i have about 1 inch of solid salt, calcium, mag- then i sake the tote and sucked out then i get the strainer clog, not a big deal i just cleaned out, but so far everything works very well, today i only did DE icing on a 1/2 inch of snow it work like miracle, i sprayed 475 gallons on 6.5 acres


----------



## Kubota 8540

MRBILLS;918978 said:


> Hi! I'm back now, i went out today and used my new tee-jet # 0010 triple stream nozzle's,and the #0005 strainer it work very well, the only problem is when i transfer the liquid from the storage containers to the stationary container on the pickup at the bottom of the storage container i have about 1 inch of solid salt, calcium, mag- then i sake the tote and sucked out then i get the strainer clog, not a big deal i just cleaned out, but so far everything works very well, today i only did DE icing on a 1/2 inch of snow it work like miracle, i sprayed 475 gallons on 6.5 acres


Do you mix your own liquid? I've never had any settling out to the bottom of the container to deal with.


----------



## MRBILLS

Kubota 8540;919012 said:


> Do you mix your own liquid? I've never had any settling out to the bottom of the container to deal with.


No i by premix and ready to use


----------



## Roch_Greg

This might be worth reading in light of the discussion here. Cam across it in today's paper


----------



## Kubota 8540

Roch_Greg;919860 said:


> This might be worth reading in light of the discussion here. Cam across it in today's paper


I've been using salt brine/calcium chloride mix, WOW have I cut back on the bulk salt usage. I have been using about 400 gallons to do the work of what I would have had to do with 1 3/4 ton of bulk salt. Takes roughly 900 pounds of bulk salt to make the brine. I don't think using the beet juice on parking areas would be good, but it would make sense on roads.


----------



## Grassman09

Kubota,

Few more questions for you.

on the systems you have designed to be installed in pick up trucks I imagine there is some sort of overflow or do you just run straight to the boom off the pump?

I was watering in the summer and did a similar set up I got very little pressure coming out of my hose, all the pressure was on the 3/4" hose that re circulated the water back into the tank. I was using a gas pump.

I am thinking of testing my spray bar with the gas pump The drawback is I would have to get in and out of the truck to turn it on and off, but it will work for the time being.

How do i throttle the flow and PSI on an electric system? All I found was a 3/4 adjustable valve.

I was thinking of using a few of these valves to control the boom.
Tee Jet Solenoid valve.

I imagine the filter / screen should go before the pump?
The 2" "Y" strainer was huge so i picked up a 1" but its a 80mesh inside is that too fine?

I ended up finding a farm supply place that sells allot of Tee Jet products as dultmeier is not Canadian friendly. I still need to possibly order the 12volt pump from them.

What about an electric motor and a roller pump? Almost like a salter motor.

Dave.


----------



## farmcat

*Very Interesting Reading*

This has been quite a learning session for me. I have been plowing for about twenty years now. For the most part we do not use any salt on parking lots and driveways. It is very expensive, cost a fortune to get it delivered and then you have to store it. I use straight sand, basically for traction. However I have been thinking about prewetting the sand with LCC as it drops down onto the spinner as it is spread. I have not read any comments about this method. I should mention that I am in Maine, and we sometimes do things a little different then most. Any pros or cons?


----------



## Grassman09

Kubota here are the specs on that pump you recommended. I'll either have a heck of allot of liquid or not enough. Didn't understand the graph fully. 
Specs on the 400 Series Pump

*Farmcat,*

That is an excellent idea to treat the sand. They were doing that at some places here last year as most places were short of salt or were only selling to there good customers.

You will prob have a mushy snow on your hands, but that's better then ice. I'm sure the sand just blows away with no salt in it. They use sand in the northern parts here and are just starting to use liquids I've seen. Salt brine being the cheapest. But not sure what it does when its so god damn cold out its about as good as pure salt.


----------



## Kubota 8540

farmcat;921125 said:


> This has been quite a learning session for me. I have been plowing for about twenty years now. For the most part we do not use any salt on parking lots and driveways. It is very expensive, cost a fortune to get it delivered and then you have to store it. I use straight sand, basically for traction. However I have been thinking about prewetting the sand with LCC as it drops down onto the spinner as it is spread. I have not read any comments about this method. I should mention that I am in Maine, and we sometimes do things a little different then most. Any pros or cons?


I've been plowing about 25 years and salting for 20 years. Just started into some liquids last year and had favorable results so far which has prompted me get more involved. Last year when salt prices got so high and with all the ice we had in Illinois, salt supply was running short so I ordered a load of sand. Which started to freeze as it was being dumped. I hit it with some liquid calcium chloride and it played nice the rest of the winter. Kind of sticky coming out of the spreader, good thing for dual vibrators. Ideally if the sand wouldn't freeze to start with, then spraying at the spinner would be perfect. Two nozzles in a v pattern not spraying directly on the spinner but just behind the spinner so it would spray whatever material is leaving the spinner. Then any excess spray would hit the ground. As soon as I get a little free time thats how I'm going to set up the spreader behind the Kubota. Going to use my ATV spot sprayer attached with 2 nozzles.


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;921449 said:


> Kubota here are the specs on that pump you recommended. I'll either have a heck of allot of liquid or not enough. Didn't understand the graph fully.
> Specs on the 400 Series Pump
> 
> *Farmcat,*
> 
> That is an excellent idea to treat the sand. They were doing that at some places here last year as most places were short of salt or were only selling to there good customers.
> 
> You will prob have a mushy snow on your hands, but that's better then ice. I'm sure the sand just blows away with no salt in it. They use sand in the northern parts here and are just starting to use liquids I've seen. Salt brine being the cheapest. But not sure what it does when its so god damn cold out its about as good as pure salt.


Showing the results in gallons per minute, it claims it will pump 30 weight oil at 78 degrees at a rate of 12 gallons per minute with a discharge hose length of 5 feet. Well I don't think salt brine is anywhere as thick as 30 weight oil at 78 degrees, so it should pump a lot of salt brine? It's just that I have found that any sprayer setup I have liked has to have at least 20-25 gallon per minute capacity at 30 psi minimum. This is why I said probably 2 pumps. But most pumps are not 100% efficient which means real world results are going to vary. Did you purchase this pump? If you do, let me know what you find out. I have read a lot about this pump, even opened the box at our local farm store, just couldn't bring myself to buy to try. Would sure like to set up a 200 gallon low profile, dual electric pump sprayer to fit under the fiberglass tonneau cover on my Silverado. Then I could spray in the early Am hours at some of my customers where noise is a concern. That 85 horse Kubota rattles windows in the middle of the night!


----------



## Grassman09

Kubota 8540;921615 said:


> Showing the results in gallons per minute, it claims it will pump 30 weight oil at 78 degrees at a rate of 12 gallons per minute with a discharge hose length of 5 feet. Well I don't think salt brine is anywhere as thick as 30 weight oil at 78 degrees, so it should pump a lot of salt brine? It's just that I have found that any sprayer setup I have liked has to have at least 20-25 gallon per minute capacity at 30 psi minimum. This is why I said probably 2 pumps. But most pumps are not 100% efficient which means real world results are going to vary. Did you purchase this pump? If you do, let me know what you find out. I have read a lot about this pump, even opened the box at our local farm store, just couldn't bring myself to buy to try. Would sure like to set up a 200 gallon low profile, dual electric pump sprayer to fit under the fiberglass tonneau cover on my Silverado. Then I could spray in the early Am hours at some of my customers where noise is a concern. That 85 horse Kubota rattles windows in the middle of the night!


Well I'm not really spraying salt brine. I would be spraying a 50 50 mix of salt brine and beat juice. Kinda like Ice ban but that's got mag in it not salt brine.

No I haven't bought the pump. Nobody around here sells it, have to get it from the USA and get it shipped to me. I'm looking for someone in buffalo who sells it where I can just drive and get it.

I hear ya on the kubota same reason I want electric. What would be your other choice of 12 volt pump? If you had 2 of those Sotera pumps good god you would a bad ass sprayer and a big hole in your pocket book.


----------



## Kubota 8540

To me the electric Sotera would cost about $200-400 more than the 2" gas that I already have, but would only be a 110 gallon capacity instead of hundreds of gallons. Just doesn't make sense. I have also looked into Hypro 12 volt electric pumps but with them I'm back to 3 pumps, but would have higher pressure and the same price each. The Hypro XL 4001 http://www.dultmeier.com/products/0.851.857/1192 Then recently I have been looking in the other way. First looking for the 12 volt HD motor to which I can connect a pump found these: http://www.leeson.com/Products/products/DCMotors/lowvoltage.html Eventually I will find and put together an electric high capacity sprayer!


----------



## Kubota 8540

You mean to tell me , we ( USA ) produce something someone from somewhere else wants? I thought we were just into the consumer thing! Really.....we produce something....I'll be damned!:laughing::laughing:


----------



## Grassman09

Kubota 8540;923899 said:


> You mean to tell me , we ( USA ) produce something someone from somewhere else wants? I thought we were just into the consumer thing! Really.....we produce something....I'll be damned!:laughing::laughing:


Well lets not go that far. LOL.. 1st off its prob made in China or Mexico and sold in the USA or its all manufactured in China or Mexico and assembled by Chinese or Mexicans in the USA.

Yeah I thought about a DC motor and roller pump. But wont your PSI be too high and then all you will have is mist coming out? What PSI and Flow combo are we looking for in a liquid system? You want high low but low PSI? It seamed like some of those tips require a good amount of PSI before they put out any good flow.


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;923930 said:


> Well lets not go that far. LOL.. 1st off its prob made in China or Mexico and sold in the USA or its all manufactured in China or Mexico and assembled by Chinese or Mexicans in the USA.
> 
> I do believe you got this 100% right!
> 
> Yeah I thought about a DC motor and roller pump. But wont your PSI be too high and then all you will have is mist coming out? What PSI and Flow combo are we looking for in a liquid system? You want high low but low PSI? It seamed like some of those tips require a good amount of PSI before they put out any good flow.


You can basically have any amount of flow from the pump, you would just add a throttling valve which you can set, use what you need and bypass the rest back to the tank. But you do need a certain minimum of flow , which I like to be about 22-24 gallons. Psi is more important in my opinion, ideally I would like a range from 30-60 psi. The nozzle tips I prefer being the Teejet SJ-3 20 VP work good from 20-60psi, they will work at lower psi but don't deliver the rated gallons per acre. If you use fan spray tips it is possible to create a mist with higher psi, but here again a pressure regulator will work to be able to adjust and control it. The 12 volt electric motor and roller pump would be alright if :

1) you could get motor rpm to match pump max rpm .....like a Hypro 7560 XL at 1000 rpm that would take you into the low - mid 20 gallons and that is what runs my sprayer on the Kubota except its pto driven

2) find the right size 12 volt motor with right torque to handle spinning the roller pump

I like the idea of the 12 volt motor / roller pump because I'm very familiar with the roller pump. I just don't know how to calculate which motor I would need to turn the roller pump efficiently and properly.


----------



## Grassman09

Kubota 8540;923965 said:


> You can basically have any amount of flow from the pump, you would just add a throttling valve which you can set, use what you need and bypass the rest back to the tank. .


Ahh now I see the problem I had with pumping the water. The water took the easiest way out.


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;924136 said:


> Ahh now I see the problem I had with pumping the water. The water took the easiest way out.


Here's a diagram of one of the ways to do it.. Electric valves can be replaced by manual valves if need be. Number of Boom valves can be decreased if need be. Don't need the self cleaning valve, agitation line, or tank jet agitator.








Spraying salt brine and beet juice might be interesting, I would like to try some. Here in Illinois the state D.O.T. uses a mix called super mix. Salt brine / beet juice / calcium chloride.


----------



## Grassman09

Whats it sell for in your area?


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;924774 said:


> Whats it sell for in your area?


Salt brine cost 40 cents per gallon.... beet juice I thinks about $3.00 per gallon.....and the liquid calcium chloride is 68 cents/gallon... so mixed it would be about........So approx. 95 cents per gallon?


----------



## Grassman09

The salt brine is right on with my prices here. The Fusion aka Bio Melt aka Beet juice is $2.36 
Fusion

Those guys have a few different cuts of the formula but I think I'll stick with 50 50 or and 100% for pre wet on the salter.

What height is your boom off the ground?


----------



## Kubota 8540

Here's one similar?
http://www.snisolutions.com/?id=products&cid=2
Not to far from where I live, 60-70 miles.


----------



## Kubota 8540

Grassman09;924801 said:


> The salt brine is right on with my prices here. The Fusion aka Bio Melt aka Beet juice is $2.36
> Fusion
> 
> Those guys have a few different cuts of the formula but I think I'll stick with 50 50 or and 100% for pre wet on the salter.
> 
> What height is your boom off the ground?


Salt brine price is reasonable for resale at 40 cents per gallon, but I make my own for 11 1/2 cents per gallon.









Makes 300 gallon per hour, due to thats what my well will pump.


----------



## Kubota 8540

To answer your question about the boom height. With the sprayer being on the Kubota it's usually set at 24". But I can raise and lower if I want to from 12"-48" because its mounted on the 3 point hitch. Can do the same with the salt spreader, with the spinner at 40" I can cover a max of 100' in a pass. Don't like doing it because of the severe shaft angle.


----------



## Grassman09

I was going to look into making brine but I don't need that much at the moment. They used to call it GEO Melt here as well. I looked up the MSDS and it shows no Mag chloride in it. I've heard from a friend there is some in it. Only the eco salt they show mag on the msds. 

If there are any NG gas wells close you could get some even Cacl I believe. My fathers company would sell the salt brine as it was a by product from there Cacl mfg.

Have any pics of the salter on the Kubota?


----------



## Kubota 8540

MRBILLS;918978 said:


> Hi! I'm back now, i went out today and used my new tee-jet # 0010 triple stream nozzle's,and the #0005 strainer it work very well, the only problem is when i transfer the liquid from the storage containers to the stationary container on the pickup at the bottom of the storage container i have about 1 inch of solid salt, calcium, mag- then i sake the tote and sucked out then i get the strainer clog, not a big deal i just cleaned out, but so far everything works very well, today i only did DE icing on a 1/2 inch of snow it work like miracle, i sprayed 475 gallons on 6.5 acres


I was playing around with a mix the other day in a glass container. Mixed salt brine and calcium chloride at a 50/50 mix ratio and I had chemical falling out of suspension. So, mixed 75/25 and all was fine, no settling. I would have to say something in your mix is not right.


----------



## creativedesigns

Kubota 8540;899782 said:


> I can make ice by under applying rock salt, I have enough experience not to do that, why worry about the liquids, apply it properly.


How can you under apply rock salt when using a spreader?


----------



## REAPER

creativedesigns;1142846 said:


> How can you under apply rock salt when using a spreader?


Turn the controller on 1 and drive 50 MPH once as you leave the lot.


----------



## Kubota 8540

REAPER;1142876 said:


> Turn the controller on 1 and drive 50 MPH once as you leave the lot.


But what if I only wanted 1 salt kernel every 10 feet apart? Would that still be under applied or right on target? :laughing:


----------



## creativedesigns

Kubota 8540;1142906 said:


> But what if I only wanted 1 salt kernel every 10 feet apart? Would that still be under applied or right on target? :laughing:


As long as you "over plow" the parking lot before, then underapplying salt shouldn't be a concern.


----------



## Bajak

creativedesigns;1151873 said:


> As long as you "over plow" the parking lot before, then underapplying salt shouldn't be a concern.


I still like the "pre-plow" better than "over-plow" but hey, too each their own.


----------



## dfd9

Bajak;1152676 said:


> I still like the "pre-plow" better than "over-plow" but hey, too each their own.


Pre-sleeping rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## creativedesigns

Kubota 8540 did u get my last PM? ...................


----------



## CGM Inc.

turboguy;653064 said:


> Discussions can be a lot more interesting when you get someone who disagrees with the things someone says.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't disagree with much you say.
> 
> You said:
> 
> Liquid will never be able to do what rock salt can.
> 
> The other side of the coin is rock salt will never be able to do what liquids can. I am referring primarily to Anti-Icing.
> 
> The first Internet study I ever read sort of stuck in my mind, partially because it was the first study I read but also the results they had. Here is a link to that 6 year study.
> 
> http://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/weather/best_practices/casestudies/007.pdf
> 
> In their studies they reduced materials by 83% and time by 62%. That is a far cry from the 30% you are suggesting.
> 
> I thought one of the interesting parts of that study was they also reduced accidents by 83%. I think this is an interesting side of anti-icing. I have seen numerous other studies that show liquids make the roads much safer. One in NY in an area where they had an extremely high accident rate liquids totally eliminated the problem. I think liquids could be the body shops worst enemy.
> 
> I do agree with you that marketing liquids is tough right now. I think a big part of that is that for the general public it is a new area where there is little knowledge and in time it will become an easy thing to market and something many will demand, but for now that is a problem. I think one of the other parts that make it hard to market is they really don't see anything. If you plow snow, what you did is very visible. If you pretreat with liquids they don't see anything except perhaps that they have no snow and others do.
> 
> I agree too that there are a lot of different chemicals and many don't know much about what they are selling. Liquids have been around for a while and their use has been steadily increasing. I have talked to very few who were not happy with their results. I think we all need some trial and error and exchanging ideas here will help determine which chemicals work the best and are most cost effective.
> 
> I see some guys who want to go all liquid and I have seen a few have some success at it but I agree with you, it is a tool but not a total solution. It won't replace salt but it can help to provide better services, at lower cost and increased profits. Used as part of the package it can be a very good thing.
> 
> Your turn.


WOW! Relatively new to the entire industry but you know your stuff!
Been to a couple seminars about liquids and I believe anti-icing and ore-application is key of the product to cut donw on accidents. Most accidents appear in the 1st hour of a storm from what I know, you can't put salt down fast enough! But you can apply liquid ahead of time


----------



## Kubota 8540

Clapper...... you using liquids?


----------



## Plow man Foster

i use liquid ALOT!
My customers love it because it cost about less to them and i. 
- It melts at lower temps than rock 
But rock is still nice at some times...
I do a couple gas stations i can never plow all the snow so there is always some hard packed snow..... also its been like -5* 
This is where i spread rock then spray liquid right onto of the pre treated salt
snow melts almost instantaneously!


----------



## SnowMatt13

I have enjoyed reading this as I think there has been some good discussion.
I may have already said this but my belief is that liquids will never 100% replace salt and the other way too.
In addition, you always have to mechanically remove as much snow and ice for your best results no matter what you do with either.
I have expanded my liquid program at my work to include anti-icing and pre-wetting in the auger pan.
I make my own brine and blend it with GeoMelt55 (sugar beet). My blend works well for what I need it to do, but it does have it's limitations.
I do not add any mag or cal chloride to my mix as others do. There is less forgiveness IMO with doing that and improper applications can be bad as temps get low and the chloride draws the moisture.
I think a lot of liquids or even just salt and salt applications depend on what you want for results, and what your customers want and how soon you or them want them.
I can get wet pavement when the pavement temp is 5 degrees with no traffic flow, but at what cost.....
Just some of my thoughts.


----------



## BlazingSun

*Anti icing sidewalks*

Whats the best equipment to spray sidewalks? I have been researching and considered using liquids in my parking lots. I have 4 Pilot truck stops and several other large properties, seems to be no savings on the big lots. But certainly agree that saving manual labor on sidewalks is worth the cost of spraying walks and short drives in patio home HOAs that we serve.


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

IMHO, liquids are most suited for "lane mile" type applications. Truck stops/travel centers have a _lot_ of ground to cover, and having been to many of them--they're usually jammed full of trucks. Most liquid user I know of prefer stream applications, and depend on traffic to spread it around. You could use fan nozzles and drive very slowly, but you risk blow away, and using a _whole_ lot of product. I'd opt for a treated salt before I'd go liquid in that environment, keep the spinner mounted very low and just fling it right under the trucks.


----------



## creativedesigns

Westhardt Corp.;1161032 said:



> IMHO, liquids are most suited for "lane mile" type applications. Truck stops/travel centers have a _lot_ of ground to cover, and having been to many of them--they're usually jammed full of trucks. Most liquid user I know of prefer stream applications, and depend on traffic to spread it around. You could use fan nozzles and drive very slowly, but you risk blow away, and using a _whole_ lot of product. I'd opt for a treated salt before I'd go liquid in that environment, keep the spinner mounted very low and just fling it right under the trucks.


Yeah Eh! Im really wanting a liquid system for next year, & Ive got lots & lots of money lying around for one, but you have some valid key points about liquids too. Hmmmm.....but I like using treated Clearlane too, which is probly better!


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

If Clearlane is all you can get a hold of, then I'd say "sure". But if you have other options, I'd look around. Not saying Clearlane is a bad product, but it is old technology--just a straight liquid mag treat. Effective, but the recent innovation of carbohydrate and organic additives have rendered the old "mag" kinda outdated.


----------



## BlazingSun

I wont even consider using liquid on the truck stops. Theres over 50 acres between all of them and yes, they are normally over half full of parked rigs when the storm hits. We have spinner low and speed cranked up to fling it as far under the trucks that we can.

My main inquiry is what is the best equipment to use to SPRAY anti-icing liquids on SIDEWALKS? As much as I avoid sidewalks, I still have several clients insist we do them. Such as patio home HOAs, Walmart, etc. I only want to spray the sidewalks, not lots or streets.

Any input on a good sprayer and chemicals would be great. We are in lower Midwest, temps very rarely stay below 5deg F, for any extended time.


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

You run any ATVs? You could do something as simple as this...



















http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200347993_200347993

We run similar units on the trucks to spray liquid cal into the box so the loads won't stick when it gets stupid cold. My personal unit is this exact one without the broadcast nozzle, and it's run for three years with no problems, and I leave the CC in it over the summer with no problems.

They make a variety of these, including little trailer mounted ones. You should be able to find something that will work--and the price is excellent. You can't beat the bang for the buck.

HTH!


----------



## dfd9

Plow man Foster;1159630 said:


> i use liquid ALOT!


Just as an aside, everyone uses liquid to melt snow and ice.

The difference is in the application, as a liquid or granular.


----------



## cretebaby

Westhardt Corp.;1174943 said:


> We run similar units on the trucks to spray liquid cal into the box so the loads won't stick when it gets stupid cold.


That is interesting that is all it takes.


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

Yessir! There are other methods, but being that we are delivering ready mix stone, it can't have anything on it...but as you well know, cal is commonly used in the mix. I've even been known to "cheat", because I'm kinda lazy...

I puncture a few bags of Peladow and let them sit, so they harden up (those cute little hygroscopic sponges that they are). I then take a hard chunk and just toss it into the front of my snow-filled box, and it brines up the stuff in the very front center (where it sticks anyway). Once the first bucket of material drops in, it "spreads" (read: smooshes/squeezes everywhere) my "brine" quite effectively. By the time I dump the stone, it's just water...and it all comes right out.

I should patent my "lazy man's cal application" method.


----------



## BlazingSun

I dont use ATV's yet but considering it very much for my residentials with a plow on them. and a sprayer for walkways on commercial


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

If you have a lot of linear walk, it's probably a no-brainer, especially with a small liquid rig on it.


----------



## BlazingSun

Havent had a large amount of sidewalks until this year, with a patio home HOA that wants "community" walks cleared also. Approx 1/2 mile of walkways. So I am def looking at some type of sprayer that I can use liquids on these walks. I saw that Earthway has a walk behind sprayer, but havent found ANYBODY thats used one before. 
A lot of conversation here about home made rigs, I lack that ability so will fork out the cash for a dependable system.


----------



## REAPER

BlazingSun;1176875 said:


> Havent had a large amount of sidewalks until this year, with a patio home HOA that wants "community" walks cleared also. Approx 1/2 mile of walkways. So I am def looking at some type of sprayer that I can use liquids on these walks. I saw that Earthway has a walk behind sprayer, but havent found ANYBODY thats used one before.
> A lot of conversation here about home made rigs, I lack that ability so will fork out the cash for a dependable system.


We started using a Snow-Ex 100 gal tank with sprayer and hose on a reel. I believe you can get up to 200 feet of hose. Park in middle and do 400' in one parking. I do not use it but have not heard any complaints from those that do.

VSS-1000


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

BlazingSun;1176875 said:


> Havent had a large amount of sidewalks until this year, with a patio home HOA that wants "community" walks cleared also. Approx 1/2 mile of walkways. So I am def looking at some type of sprayer that I can use liquids on these walks. I saw that Earthway has a walk behind sprayer, but havent found ANYBODY thats used one before.
> A lot of conversation here about home made rigs, I lack that ability so will fork out the cash for a dependable system.


Well, FWIW I can tell you unit I mentioned has given me zero problems (minus a broken tip--my fault) in the four years I've owned it. When on stream, the wand will spray a good 20' (for those, you know--"hard to reach" places), and in your case, the broadcast nozzle will spray as long as the valve is turned on (they run off a 60PSI pressure switch which turns the pump on/off).

Can't beat it for $200, although I would recommend changing the supplied wand hose for something more cold-weather friendly. I used a 3/8" x 25' rubber air hose--works great in any temperature.


----------



## spiviter

BlazingSun;1176875 said:


> I saw that Earthway has a walk behind sprayer, but havent found ANYBODY thats used one before.
> A lot of conversation here about home made rigs, I lack that ability so will fork out the cash for a dependable system.


I bought one last winter and have no problem with it. I have run store bought product and my own made brine thru it. Straight sodium - Straight Calcium - and a 90/10 mix of them.


----------



## BlazingSun

Good to know about the Earthway sprayer and the one for the atv. could the atv one be used for spraying herbicides also? We also do lawn care so would be nice to multi task the sprayer I decide to buy. Considering I dont own a atv yet, looking hard at the walk behind sprayer for this winter and then upgrading everything to atv with plow and sprayer for next winter.

Thanks to all for your inputs and suggestions. They certainly assist me in making decisions as our snow/ice program is expanding.


----------



## BlazingSun

REAPER;1177010 said:


> We started using a Snow-Ex 100 gal tank with sprayer and hose on a reel. I believe you can get up to 200 feet of hose. Park in middle and do 400' in one parking. I do not use it but have not heard any complaints from those that do.
> 
> VSS-1000


Actually have looked at the 200 & 300 with a hose reel. Could use either one to do the entire patio home complex(drives, walks & street) with one fill. Its nice little loop,, have 1 person drive truck and other walk with hose, prob do the whole complex in less than an hour.


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

BlazingSun;1177604 said:


> Good to know about the Earthway sprayer and the one for the atv. could the atv one be used for spraying herbicides also? We also do lawn care so would be nice to multi task the sprayer I decide to buy. Considering I dont own a atv yet, looking hard at the walk behind sprayer for this winter and then upgrading everything to atv with plow and sprayer for next winter.
> 
> Thanks to all for your inputs and suggestions. They certainly assist me in making decisions as our snow/ice program is expanding.


That's its intended purpose, actually...


----------



## BlazingSun

Westhardt Corp.;1178002 said:


> That's its intended purpose, actually...


Thats what I was thinking. I have there catalog and thought I had seen it in there. Trying to convince my 24 yo son to let me borrow his atv for this winter and then buy me one next year. Thats his "toy" so its not looking good right now.


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

Convince your son? LOL...

"Billy, I'm borrowing this for the winter."
"Dad, um what?"
"Did I S-T-U-T-T-E-R, son?"
"Um, no."
"Excellent! I'll take good care of it."


----------



## BlazingSun

Westhardt Corp.;1178474 said:


> Convince your son? LOL...
> 
> "Billy, I'm borrowing this for the winter."
> "Dad, um what?"
> "Did I S-T-U-T-T-E-R, son?"
> "Um, no."
> "Excellent! I'll take good care of it."


I try not to treat him too harshly. Owns his own home already plus 2 almost brand new pick ups, 2 mud drag trucks. Good kid with a good head on his shoulders.

Was reading your post on another thread about IceSlicer, sounds like a decent product. Since you are in the hauling business, what does the avg yard of rock salt actually weigh? approx. not looking for hard core numbers, just ball park.


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

Just over a ton is the rule of thumb. More if it's all fines, and even more if it's wet.

I would agree, you son seems to have his head on straight...more toys than I have. 

LOL...


----------



## abock87

we are running 2 liquid rigs in our snow removal operations for pre-treat and de-icing apps. one is a 660 gallon rig and the other is a 500, but we have 300' foot of hose on the trucks to get the sidewalks, works great in most cases when spraying down sidewalks..


----------

