# Thoughts About Rock Salt



## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

Rock salt is fairly abundent, relatively inexpensive (compared to other deicers) and does a decent job for most snow events. So what does rock salt do on pavement if there's no snow to melt? Nothing! Not until those first snow flakes hit it. What happens then? It starts to "brine out". It starts making that 23% brine that everybody talks about. (By the way, I can't tell you how many people call it "BRIME". I don't know what brime is, but brine is a word commonly associated a manufactured rock salt solution (23.3% rock salt in water) OR natural well brine which contains all of the natural occuring "chlorides" (calcium, magnesium, sodium & potassium + a few other ions in such small amounts that its not worth mentioning). Anyway - brine does all the hard work on the pavement, rock salt does nothing.
1 lb salt @ 30F melts 46 lbs ice in 5 minutes
1 lb salt @ 15F melts only 6 lbs ice in 1 hour
1 lb salt @ -6F (eutictic point) melts only 3 lbs ice in FOREVER ...it'll blow away before it works.
This is the principle reason that rock salt gets so abused ...it's abundent, it's still kind of cheap - so what, it's only 7F out - we'll just pound down that salt until we get the results as if it was 27F!!!

What makes rock salt work faster? Other than spiking it with with calcium / mag chlorides or beet juice, consider "gradation". The smaller the particle size, the faster it will brine out. Some equipment manufactures are capitalizing on this concept - they're using a crusher as the salt enters the spinner / auger. So, does this finer gradation work faster? You bet. Is the salt still limited to decreasing effectiveness in lower temps (as listed above)? You bet. So what's the bottom line here: rock salt that looks like table salt will brine out in a heartbeat, HOWEVER, if an event comes in as rain or freezing rain - standard rock salt is king. Why? ...because the longer it takes to brine out those big chunks of salt, you're hoping that the temp is tanking & it's turning to snow. By the way, NO anti-icing, with any chemicals works well when an event comes in as rain or freezing rain - don't waste your money trying. 

Thoughts about mid-winter draws of salt ...I always cringe when I drive by that mountain of salt just South of Detroit in mid-January - untarped - next to the river (there'll be sharks in Lake Erie before ya know it), it's 35F and it's been raining hard for the last 3 or 4 days. Those taking a draw off this pile are in for a rude awakening. This is certainly rain-soaked salt, and the liquid dripping out of the truck that just brought it is brine. That's right, the same thing that's forming around that small salt crystal when it snows, is coming out of that pile = 23% brine = salt water. Will this salt freeze up in your trucks now that it's only 10F? Sure - like an iceburg. Most of the time your rock salt will be no more than 10% moisture. Salt with considerably higher moisture contents will NOT hold an additional 6,8,10,12 gallons per ton of other spiked chlorides or beet juice. It runs our of a salt pile and throws like cow pies off the spinner. It's not a problem with the spike chlorides or the beet juice - rain soaked salt just can't hold that much more liquid.

Lastly, what's that blue stuff on salt? It's an anti-caking agent added to prevent salt piles from freezing up. This blue dye called Prussian Blue is Ferric Ferrocyanide. Although shown to be relatively benign to human it does brake down into its iron and cyanide components which makes me wonder about lesser species - perhaps in a creekbed along a major highway??? Does the anti-caking work? Sort of. Does it work for that mid-winter draw of rain soaked salt? If you've been in the business for a while, you know the answer to that. If you had to, you could probably eat the blue snow, but don't ever eat the yellow snow.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Moral of the story: if you want perfect salt, buy it early--in cash; take it off the barge--not the stockpile; store it in a warehouse.

_This message brought to you by Trump Snow Removal_


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Winterologist;943621 said:


> Rock salt is fairly abundent, relatively inexpensive (compared to other deicers) and does a decent job for most snow events. So what does rock salt do on pavement if there's no snow to melt? Nothing! Not until those first snow flakes hit it. What happens then? It starts to "brine out". It starts making that 23% brine that everybody talks about. (By the way, I can't tell you how many people call it "BRIME". I don't know what brime is, but brine is a word commonly associated a manufactured rock salt solution (23.3% rock salt in water) OR natural well brine which contains all of the natural occuring "chlorides" (calcium, magnesium, sodium & potassium + a few other ions in such small amounts that its not worth mentioning). Anyway - brine does all the hard work on the pavement, rock salt does nothing.
> 1 lb salt @ 30F melts 46 lbs ice in 5 minutes
> 1 lb salt @ 15F melts only 6 lbs ice in 1 hour
> 1 lb salt @ -6F (eutictic point) melts only 3 lbs ice in FOREVER ...it'll blow away before it works.
> ...


Excellent post, other than the red type.

I disagree with this statement, based on my experiences. Especially if you are only getting a light icing event, under say a quarter inch.

If you anti-ice you will have little to no ice on your lots while if you don't you will be skating all over them in an attempt to apply salt and melt your way through the layer of ice to get the brine underneath where it is actually effective.

It is a well known fact that no matter what we are trying to melt, we need to get the brine--which is what melts all snow and ice, not a granule of chloride--it needs to get to the pavement or be there from the get go. This is why anti-icing is effective in reducing salt usage.

I will say that if it is raining heavily, you will be wasting time and material. But if it starts off as freezing rain, you will be a long way ahead.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Great category 3 post with some 1 and 2 in there as well.

Here are my thoughts and questions on pretreating for a freezing rain event. I admit, I don't really know much about pre-treating.

I wont apologize for the metric because I find it easier to work with. I will however give conversions as best I can out of respect for old farts in Canada and those schooled in the U.S.A.

Ice has a density of 0.9kg/l (2lbs/0.264 us. gal.) @ O*C (32*F)

If I were to expect a freezing rain event of 5mm (between 1/8 and 1/4 inch) with air temperatures near 0*C and ground temperatures of around -8*C(17.6*F). Why could I expect 1kg of salt, used as pre treatment, to not take care of 10 m sq. (107 ft sq.) of a parking lot?

10 sq. m x 5mm = 50 l of ice weighing 45 kg(99 lbs.).
when 1 kg (2.2 lbs) of salt will melt 45 kg of ice in respectable time under these conditions.

If the salt becomes encapsulated in ice, will it not maintain a brine?

Will it not at the very least buy some time?

If the brine freezes, would it not take less salt to 'kick start' the process?

Glad to see a post again Winterologist. I thought we lost you.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Bajak;944432 said:


> Great category 3 post with some 1 and 2 in there as well.
> 
> Here are my thoughts and questions on pretreating for a freezing rain event. I admit, I don't really know much about pre-treating.
> 
> ...


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Another Great Post...Also some Great info from Mark...Im just gonna sit back and enjoy this one..Its a pleasure to learn from people that know their stuff.....


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

My head hurts. I'm allergic to metric.



(great posts, though after translating them through Google)


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Matson Snow;944456 said:


> Another Great Post...Also some Great info from Mark...Im just gonna sit back and enjoy this one..Its a pleasure to learn from people that know their stuff.....


Hot dang, got another one buffaloed.

Wait, you weren't referring to me, were you?


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;944464 said:


> My head hurts. I'm allergic to metric.
> 
> 
> 
> (great posts, though after translating them through Google)


Metric is great to work with because I suck at fractions. I have a calculator with metric to imperial conversion.
I hope no one gets too upset with 5mm being between an eighth and a quarter inch.
It is actually a 0.196850393 inch.

I hope this thread doesn't get too Decorated while we wait for the resident science guy. I'm sure Winterologist will be back with quality answers. I was beginning to think he was Ferris Buellers teacher. Happy to see some humour mixed in the OP.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;944117 said:


> Excellent post, other than the red type.
> 
> I disagree with this statement, based on my experiences. Especially if you are only getting a light icing event, under say a quarter inch.
> 
> ...


Ditto.

I have found that pretreating an ice storm is the best way to deal with it.

Heavy ice is like a heavy snow, you have to keep up to it and not just wait until the end.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Bajak;944509 said:


> Metric is great to work with because I suck at fractions. I have a calculator with metric to imperial conversion.
> I hope no one gets too upset with 5mm being between an eighth and a quarter inch.
> It is actually a 0.196850393 inch.
> 
> I hope this thread doesn't get too Decorated while we wait for the resident science guy. I'm sure Winterologist will be back with quality answers. I was beginning to think he was Ferris Buellers teacher. Happy to see some humour mixed in the OP.


LOL..."Bueller??"

Actually, metric is easier once you are well versed in it--like you said, no fractions. But, going back & forth in anything other than length just confuzzles me.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Westhardt Corp.;944564 said:


> LOL..."Bueller??"
> 
> Actually, metric is easier once you are well versed in it--like you said, no fractions. But, going back & forth in anything other than length just confuzzles me.


Shoot, I didn't even try to convert, but then again, I understand what he is saying. Basically, Jamie, Jim, Jimmie, James whoever he is was making me look like the dumb snowplower I am by using actual scientific figures.

He's pretty smart for a Canuck. :salute: tymusic 

PS I love Ben Stein, he is hilarious.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

All I know is 25.4 mm = 1 inch. Beyond that, pass a napkin to contain my drooling, please.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Winterologist;943621 said:


> Thoughts about mid-winter draws of salt ...I always cringe when I drive by that mountain of salt just South of Detroit in mid-January - untarped - next to the river (there'll be sharks in Lake Erie before ya know it)


Kind of hard to tarp one of these, wouldn't you say?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Not out here it's not. http://www.raynercovering.com/industrial/index.htm

They do some ridiculous piles--500+ Kton.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

TCLA;944604 said:


> Kind of hard to tarp one of these, wouldn't you say?
> 
> View attachment 69408


Is that the Pile Behind your Shop??....WOW!!!!!...Bragger!!..:laughing::laughing:


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

I park My work truck about 200 yards from that pile...Nice Neighborhood..


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## Maine_Train (Dec 16, 2009)

Great thread. I love it when I can learn that much while just sittin' around doin' nuthin'. 



Winterologist;943621 said:


> I don't know what brime is, but brine is a word commonly associated a manufactured rock salt solution . . .


Isn't brime a type of really small shrinp?


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## DAFFMOBILEWASH (Dec 9, 2006)

How much of that pile runs off back into the Detroit river?? We all know about the benifits of salt as a melting agent but what about the enviromental impact on a specific region. I hate when a contractor piles the salt on a quarter inch thick to melt a coating of snow. Sure he might not have to return to resalt for some time but most of the time it goes to waste and down the catch basin.

Before a major storm I like having a thin layer of calium brine or salt brine down to prevent the adhesion of the snow to the asphalt. Normally applied the night before the event. In the long run it helps in getting the ashalt back to black for having less snow packed regions. 

Great thread and ideas metric or imperial for us on the border!!!


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Excellent post with some real numbers I can chew on....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Westhardt Corp.;944578 said:


> All I know is 25.4 mm = 1 inch. Beyond that, pass a napkin to contain my drooling, please.


Nope, you're wrong. 2.54cm=1 inch


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;944578 said:


> All I know is 25.4 mm = 1 inch. Beyond that, pass a napkin to contain my drooling, please.





Mark Oomkes;944968 said:


> Nope, you're wrong. 2.54cm=1 inch


You're both wrong. .0254meter = 1 inch


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

2COR517;945045 said:


> You're both wrong. .0254meter = 1 inch


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Doesn't take much to make you laugh tonight.....


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

I'm in a good mood.....


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Pshaw! I don't pay much attention to decimal points. Come to think of it, that might explain my current financial situation.


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## DAFFMOBILEWASH (Dec 9, 2006)

Oh that explains the -sign on my statements every month!!!


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;944578 said:


> All I know is 25.4 mm = 1 inch. Beyond that, pass a napkin to contain my drooling, please.





Mark Oomkes;944968 said:


> Nope, you're wrong. 2.54cm=1 inch





2COR517;945045 said:


> You're both wrong. .0254meter = 1 inch


I hate to even mention it, but all three of you are wrong.

1" = 0.25400 dm


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

Our friend from up North wrote: " If the salt becomes encapsulated in ice, will it not maintain a brine? 
- I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but keep this phrase in your head: Dilution of Solution or DOS. All deicers go thru it. A crystal of salt will continue to brine out - all the way down to the eutectic point. However, once that salt crystal is gone (completely dissolved) the remaining brine quickly dilutes out since there is no more salt left to make brine. The DOS quickly the brine less effective as it dilutes down to mostly water. Any salt encapsulated by ice will continue to brine out until either DOS occurs or the temp goes below the eutectic point (-6F for rock salt). A temp of, for example, -7F would STOP any brining process unless spiked with something to make it work lower (CaCl2 / MgCl2 / beet juice, etc).

Will it not at the very least buy some time?
- A pound of salt @ 30F will melt 46 pounds of ice in 5 minutes, at the eutectic point (again -6F) that same pound of salt only melts 3.2 pounds of ice in "too many hours to count". It will buy you some time as long as some crystals of salt are left, but if you're starting with brine DOS quickly overtakes it in rain or freezing rain. Of course, I consider anti-icing with brine at about 45-50 gal/lane mile. I've seen some agencies burning thru 80 - 100 gal/lane mile ,,,Man, that's deicing BUT if that much brine were put down it would last alittle longer in a rain/freezing rain event. So, bottom line - would it buy some time? Yes - but I still stand by the concept of standard rock salt is king in that event. Why? It takes a lot longer for DOS to overtake the bigger chunks of salt vs powdered salt or brine. I consider rain / freezing rain / sleet / freezing fog / black ice and snow to be very different conditions. I would recommend anti-icing for all but the first two.

If the brine freezes, would it not take less salt to 'kick start' the process?
- If brine freezes, its a moog point - you can't add anything to it until the entire mass is returned to liquid form by elevating the temp. You can't kick start a lump!

Glad to see a post again Winterologist. I thought we lost you. 
- Not lost, just extremely busy at this time of year ...glad you enjoy the threads.

PS. I see that some (although not enough of you) are concerned about how much salt is going into the environment. I'll save my thoughts about chlorides & the environment for a future thread, but it is nice to see that some of you are thinking about it.


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## kimber (Oct 27, 2008)

[QUOTE="Most of the time your rock salt will be no more than 10% moisture"

I have to disagree with this statement. Usually, the acceptable moisture content is 1-1.5% moisture. I had some salt with 4% moisture last year and it looked like pudding. I'm figuring you forgot to put in your decimel point. 

Just to clarify, the blue dye is not the YPS. YPS is a clear compound all salt producers use as an anti-caking agent. The blue is simply to delineate one's salt from another. EX: Cargill uses YPS yet their salt is white, while Morton's salt is blue. Honestly, the blue will washout or dissipate after a while if left exposed. 

Still, Winterologist, your post shows you have a good general knowledge of the salt industry and I enjoyed reading it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

kimber;945775 said:


> Still, Winterologist, your post shows you have a good general knowledge of the salt industry and I enjoyed reading it.


Absolutely agree.

Although, I would like to hear some more thoughts on why anti-icing for freezing rain is a waste in his opinion as I think he pretty well skirted it.


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## DAFFMOBILEWASH (Dec 9, 2006)

So WRT pretreating a freezing rain event would lacing the salt with a liquid calcium concentrate help in the equasion?? Or is the size of the salt cernal key?? Who knew that solubility ratios would be so much fun in school!!!!

As for the chloride in the enviroment I can recall last summer seeing salt cryslals reforming in the gravel on the side of our road. Sure it was only 90 degrees out and we were in a dry spell in August. But doesn't this make any one else uneasy. So the liability of the general public and peoples thurst for EZ cash overrules mother earths equalibrium!!! I am not trying to kill our industry but something needs to be done, use salt and other forms of deicing with respect!!!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DAFFMOBILEWASH;945967 said:


> So WRT pretreating a freezing rain event would lacing the salt with a liquid calcium concentrate help in the equasion?? Or is the size of the salt cernal key?? Who knew that solubility ratios would be so much fun in school!!!!
> 
> Guess I slept through that class.
> 
> As for the chloride in the enviroment I can recall last summer seeing salt cryslals reforming in the gravel on the side of our road. Sure it was only 90 degrees out and we were in a dry spell in August. But doesn't this make any one else uneasy. So the liability of the general public and peoples thurst for EZ cash overrules mother earths equalibrium!!! I am not trying to kill our industry but something needs to be done, use salt and other forms of deicing with respect!!!


I agree totally. Excellent statement.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Winterologist;945552 said:


> Our friend from up North wrote: " If the salt becomes encapsulated in ice, will it not maintain a brine?
> - I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, Does the salt need to be exposed to air? but keep this phrase in your head: Dilution of Solution or DOS. All deicers go thru it. A crystal of salt will continue to brine out - all the way down to the eutectic point. However, once that salt crystal is gone (completely dissolved) the remaining brine quickly dilutes out since there is no more salt left to make brine. The DOS quickly the brine less effective as it dilutes down to mostly water. Any salt encapsulated by ice will continue to brine out until either DOS occurs or the temp goes below the eutectic point (-6F for rock salt).Understood A temp of, for example, -7F would STOP any brining process unless spiked with something to make it work lower (CaCl2 / MgCl2 / beet juice, etc). In my experience I have never seen freezing rain events occur at such low temperatures. I'm not saying it can't happen because Mother Nature can always gain the upper hand.
> 
> Will it not at the very least buy some time?
> ...





Mark Oomkes;945789 said:


> Absolutely agree.
> 
> Although, I would like to hear some more thoughts on why anti-icing for freezing rain is a waste in his opinion as I think he pretty well skirted it.


Thanks for the PM this morning.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Bajak;946113 said:


> Thanks for the PM this morning.


No prob, sorry it took awhile. Let me know if it actually made sense. :laughing:

As for the freezing rain, my storm from hell was back in Jan of '94. We had about 3 inches of snow pellets-the kind that are like airsoft BB's. Temp was 9* and it started to pour. And I mean pouring rain, the liquid. We had a good cold winter going with a ton of frost in the ground, the rain soaked through the pellets, hit the frozen ground underneath and turned into solid ice.

Spent 2 weeks getting ice off sidewalks and lots. Had some areas that never cleaned up until spring. Couldn't even break through it with loader buckets or graders. Most roads if you went over 15 MPH you lost steering and just started heading for the ditch or wherever the crown of the road wanted you to go. First time I ever saw granules of salt encapsulated in ice.

I hope to never see that again. Gives me nightmares just thinking back to it.

PS Let me clarify, I HEARD about this storm as I wouldn't have been old enough to plow or salt in '94.


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## jasondwade (Oct 23, 2009)

So let me get this right. It's better to put down salt before the freezing rain hits, right? What about before a few inches of snow are predicted, will it keep the snow from accumalating? Sorry, I'm a newby.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;946461 said:


> No prob, sorry it took awhile. Let me know if it actually made sense. :laughing:
> First thing this morning it made no sense to me what so ever.:laughing: Later in the morning I read it again and I understood.
> It seems to be my capacity to comprehend and learn is directly related to my level of alertness
> As for the freezing rain, my storm from hell was back in Jan of '94. We had about 3 inches of snow pellets-the kind that are like airsoft BB's. Temp was 9* and it started to pour. And I mean pouring rain, the liquid. We had a good cold winter going with a ton of frost in the ground, the rain soaked through the pellets, hit the frozen ground underneath and turned into solid ice.
> ...


Thanks again.... 15 y.o. girl from Florida....Dumb Plower....I mean Mark.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

jasondwade;946662 said:


> So let me get this right. It's better to put down salt before the freezing rain hits, right? What about before a few inches of snow are predicted, will it keep the snow from accumalating? Sorry, I'm a newby.


That is what we are discussing here. So far pre treatment seems O.K. except for rain/freezing rain events. I'm just looking for clarification on whether salting before a small to moderate freezing rain event is a waste of time and money under the usual weather conditions they occur.

Hows the salt supply in Kentucky?


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## heather lawn spray (Mar 11, 2003)

Mark Oomkes;946461 said:


> No prob, sorry it took awhile. Let me know if it actually made sense. :laughing:
> 
> As for the freezing rain, my storm from hell was back in Jan of '94. We had about 3 inches of snow pellets-the kind that are like airsoft BB's. Temp was 9* and it started to pour. And I mean pouring rain, the liquid. We had a good cold winter going with a ton of frost in the ground, the rain soaked through the pellets, hit the frozen ground underneath and turned into solid ice.
> 
> ...


I was. . .

I remember putting 10 tons of salt through an old Western tail gate salter that night, one of us driving the other one stoking the salter on the run. The temp went from 46F (8C) to 0F (-17C) in 16 hours of pouring rain /freezing rain hail snow. We finally started to chip it off after Valentine's day


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## heather lawn spray (Mar 11, 2003)

Bajak;947616 said:


> That is what we are discussing here. So far pre treatment seems O.K. except for rain/freezing rain events. I'm just looking for clarification on whether salting before a small to moderate freezing rain event is a waste of time and money under the usual weather conditions they occur.
> 
> Hows the salt supply in Kentucky?


We use the freezing rain pre-salt _alot_. If we know that freezing rain is coming we will lay the rock salt on dry pavement ahead of it. It doesn't work perfectly well, but it does prevent the surface from becoming a sheet of ice. The next day after the city salters have run the streets, we will go out and touch up our salting work. It controls some icing as the freezing rain lands, and allows us to stay off the glassy roads with a heavily loaded salt truck during the height of the event.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

I went to class twice and the teacher wasn't there.


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## Winterologist (Dec 3, 2009)

Rain / Freezing Rain Events - Anti-icing vs Throwing Granular Salt ...the great debate continues. Frankly, whatever works for you in your program is what you should stick with. However, consider this: the smaller the salt crystal the faster it dissolves and goes into solution. Ultamately, it's all turning to brine which is doing all the work on the pavement anyway. So the salt crystals are feeding the brine making mechanism ...what happens when there's nothing feeding the brine mechanism (and its still raining)? DOS is rapidly taking over and you're losing effectiveness rapidly. Anyone who has run a brine-maker will tell you that the smaller salt crystals go into solution right away, yet it seems like those bigger chunks take forever. Same thing on the pavement. Timing becomes very critical here (and is often the most difficult to forcast) - when is that rain starting to freeze AND when is it turning over to snow? I suppose you could anti-ice JUST prior to freezing rain and find some success unless the temp is oscilating and DOS is wiping you out, but still I feel that those larger crystals will give you more bang for the buck - and if it's just before it turns to snow - sure, pre-salting and anti-icing will find even more success. The two critical factors to battle with are TIMING and DOS. So what's the bottom line for presalting in a rain event - the closer you get it to point of turnover to freezing rain the better the results ...if it stays as rain, who needs chemicals. 
My thoughts about sand at a later date. Good luck out there!
PS. Sorry about missing the decimal point earlier in the thread regarding moisture content in road salt ...it should have read 1.0% not 10% as someone pointed out. Most of the salt that you get in the early-mid Fall has 1 or 2 maybe as much as 3 or 4% moisture. By the time that rain soaked salt in mid-late winter gets to you (I thought I saw Matson getting some off that Detroit pile last Winter) it's probably got 10% or more moisture in it and you could just about pack a snowball out of it.


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## heather lawn spray (Mar 11, 2003)

our reason for pre-salting:

In our climate-area, it is often a rising temp not a falling temp that has freezing rain attached to it. The temperature will be 5 degrees below freezing when the precipitation begins, on cold ground. Our hope is that the temp will rise through freezing before sunrise and turn it to a rain only event. We don't usually deal with a falling temp freezing rain. Correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions but for us it is usually a warm system running over top of a cold system. The warm moist runs up over the cold, water falls through the freezing air temp and rain freezes in the air or on frozen ground below. Hence pre-treating works for us here. Where we can get badly caught is when the air temperature rises rapidly with moisture and falls rapidly there after and everything freezes


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## augerandblade (Jan 17, 2009)

Warm system over a cold. Yes I remember freezing rain event at minus 20 below zero. Just Krazy


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Winterologist. 

I agree timing and conditions are key. I also think strategic placement of rock salt prior to such an event can make a difference also.

Looking forward to more of your posts. I can't wait to participate in a sand thread. That subject I do have more experience in and I'm always willing to learn more.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Bajak;949429 said:


> Thanks for the reply Winterologist.
> 
> I agree timing and conditions are key. I also think strategic placement of rock salt prior to such an event can make a difference also.
> 
> Looking forward to more of your posts. I can't wait to participate in a sand thread. That subject I do have more experience in and I'm always willing to learn more.


There is a comment I sooooooo want to make, but I am trying to be completely professional and no humor or sarcasm.

:realmad::realmad:

It would be a really funny comment too. :laughing::laughing:


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;949480 said:


> There is a comment I sooooooo want to make, but I am trying to be completely professional and no humor or sarcasm.


PM me. I'll do it:laughing:

It wouldn't have anything to do with re starting the brine process after DOS with less salt would it?


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Bajak;947616 said:


> Hows the salt supply in Kentucky?


Not so good Jim. It eats my concrete.


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## hlntoiz (Jan 13, 2009)

Winterologist;945552 said:


> PS. I see that some (although not enough of you) are concerned about how much salt is going into the environment. I'll save my thoughts about chlorides & the environment for a future thread, but it is nice to see that some of you are thinking about it.


First, this has been a great thread, lotsa great info here.

Second, Now that the cities and towns around here are using treated/pure salt there is alot going into the eco system. I say in 10-15 years we will be seeing the huge effects of the salt and everyone will be scrambling especially the towns and state.



Bajak said:


> Not so good Jim. It eats my concrete.


 That is a whole nother thread.


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