# Best way to Remove 300000 square feet of ice



## miker4312 (Feb 6, 2011)

I am in Dallas TX where there is no snow plow business. I was called by a company up north to look at a parking lot of a Distribution center full of stuck delivery trailers. The ice was 5 inches thick in most places and they had shut down the whole center. They wanted the whole thing salted and broken up and removed. Because of the Super Bowl being here this week Salt was being sold for 900 dollars a ton and Potassium Chloride even more. Front end loaders were my choice but it was too slow on other jobs and I don't think it would have done it. No one has snow plows. The guy who got the job charged 90000. Was this fair? How much should it have been?


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## JB1 (Dec 29, 2006)

if you don't usually have situations like that and prices like that for salt and potassium, and you have a business that needs to be open and going, probably yes.


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

Any price is fair for snow and ice in the south. Even if you would have used 7 tons of salt at 900 dollars a ton that would have cost you 6,300 dollars. Then if you brought in a wheel loader without a pusher or anything and figured you could clear 1/2 an acre an hour it would have taken about 14 hours to do. Cost the loader out at 200 dollars an hour that would have been 2,800 dollars. So the salt and loader would have been less than 10 grand. Kind of makes me want to pack my equipment and move to Texas, lol.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

Get all the drunk Pittsburgh and Greenbay fans and takt then to the site and let them take a nice long piss. ......


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## C&T Landscaping (Apr 14, 2010)

Burkartsplow;1231171 said:


> Get all the drunk Pittsburgh and Greenbay fans and takt then to the site and let them take a nice long piss. ......


 Drink up!!:laughing:


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

**** if i knew it salt was goin for that much i would of sent a bunch down.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*Dallas snows*



miker4312;1230943 said:


> I am in Dallas TX where there is no snow plow business. I was called by a company up north to look at a parking lot of a Distribution center full of stuck delivery trailers. The ice was 5 inches thick in most places and they had shut down the whole center. They wanted the whole thing salted and broken up and removed. Because of the Super Bowl being here this week Salt was being sold for 900 dollars a ton and Potassium Chloride even more. Front end loaders were my choice but it was too slow on other jobs and I don't think it would have done it. No one has snow plows. The guy who got the job charged 90000. Was this fair? How much should it have been?


The problem with your situation is that it was a 
freak occurance-referred to as a "Force Majouer".

Front end loaders dont work on ice period because 
thay have no ballast in the tires or snow chains on 
all four tires.

The same applies to 4 wheel drives with no spin 
differentials so your done before you start.

The only successfull way is to have an older 
all hydraulic crawler with finish treads and a
surplus jet engine mounted on it with a cab
elevated above the crawler and jet engine.
and to the side of the crawler.

Considering deep mined salt could be obtained
from Morton in Grand Saline, Texas or from 
United Salt in Hockley, Tx., at the Hockley Mound 
on Warren Ranch Road for less than one 
tenth of this price; this price per ton was 
obscene and gouging and the contractor
will be visiting the "Dallas County
Jail" as a guest within a short time I would 
bet for sure once the district attorney in 
Dallas County hears about it.

The only way to remove this much ice is with a
kerosene fired jet engine powered snow and
ice melter which we have several up here for
the railroads to clear switches and crossings.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

leon;1232072 said:


> The problem with your situation is that it was a
> freak occurance-referred to as a "Force Majouer".
> 
> Front end loaders dont work on ice period because
> ...


This one has to take the cake.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

cretebaby;1232103 said:


> This one has to take the cake.


:laughing::laughing:.....................Leon, What are you Smoking


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Kerosene Fired Jet Engine........That is some Funny Stuff.....:laughing::laughing:


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## woodchuck2 (Dec 4, 2010)

$90k???? Damn!!! I would have laid the salt down about 1" thick and waited a few hours, then go after it with a loader. I mini-ex with a hammer attachment would have been good for the thicker spots.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*ice etc.*

weeeeell if you dont believe me you won't believe that CONRAIL and now CSXT who inherited this equipment from them uses jet engine powered snow blowers to burn out and remove ice and snow in both the Albany and Buffalo N.Y.switch yard and there are several videos of the machines doing it on youtube.

They have a bunch of MIG engines attached to old tanks to get rid of snow in Moscow, Russian Republic as well.


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## nms0219 (Jan 20, 2007)

jet powered snow melter in action 



 their are a few of them here in buffalo.


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

So Leon, what holds the jet engine in the parking lot?

I get the railroads using them, the tracks hold the machine down.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

leon;1232559 said:


> weeeeell if you dont believe me you won't believe that CONRAIL and now CSXT who inherited this equipment from them uses jet engine powered snow blowers to burn out and remove ice and snow in both the Albany and Buffalo N.Y.switch yard and there are several videos of the machines doing it on youtube.
> 
> They have a bunch of MIG engines attached to old tanks to get rid of snow in Moscow, Russian Republic as well.


Its Not that i Don't Believe you Leon....I know they Exist....But, I dont think the average joe can get there hands on one for Melting ice on a parking lot....


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## WingPlow (Jun 18, 2007)

wow, theres sure some "novel" ideas here....

how bout you go in and salt her up good, let it sit a while and find a couple graders
and go a scraping


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## Plow man Foster (Dec 10, 2010)

I'll come down and salt everything for 10K


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

WingPlow;1232632 said:


> wow, theres sure some "novel" ideas here....
> 
> how bout you go in and salt her up good, let it sit a while and find a couple graders
> and go a scraping


If you read the OPs post........Salt is $900 a Ton due to a few factors...He is looking for alternative ideas.....

Thanks for the Salting idea...I don't know if anyone would have come up with the idea to Salt Ice........Thumbs Up


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

cretebaby;1232103 said:


> This one has to take the cake. :


They just get better.............. :laughing:


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

as for the loaders being useless on the ice, aren't you starting on one end and peel away as you go?? thereby allowing the machine to work on cleared pavement?? i dont get this, surely there are no shortages of 3yd plus payloaders down there. rent a couple from sunbelt and go to town.

900 a ton!!! shoot, ill ship the remainder of mine i bought at 68 and pay full price of 90 for whatever else ill need this season.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*ice etc.*



goel;1232617 said:


> So Leon, what holds the jet engine in the parking lot?
> 
> I get the railroads using them, the tracks hold the machine down.


When CONRAIL built the units they added wieght for ballast and mounted 
the engines on a large surplus GE center cab switcher frame I think 
or wrecked M.O.W. track repair equipment and then
mounted the jet engine on it and moved the cab above the jet engine 
and prime mover engine.

The GE Center cabs wieght up to 66 plus tons for traction power "Adhesion" is the proper term
.
It does not take a lot of heat and air current thrust to clear switches and rails of ice with these things.

The unit is moved to whre its needed and the brake is set and then 
the engine is throttled to where the operator wants it to be set and then the unit 
starts breaking up the ice and snow and simply crawls along until the switch and 
adjoining rail are free of ice and snow.

The Long Island railroad has at least 2 of these units or did at one time.

As ong as you have enough wieght to counter the thrust of the engine you can 
do a lot of work with these units.

I believe the taller of the units swivels 360 degrees too like the 2 Bielhack
snow clearers they inherited from CONRAIL.


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

cretebaby;1232103 said:


> This one has to take the cake.


See below



leon;1232701 said:


> When CONRAIL built the units they added wieght for ballast and mounted
> the engines on a large surplus GE center cab switcher frame I think
> or wrecked M.O.W. track repair equipment and then
> mounted the jet engine on it and moved the cab above the jet engine
> ...


Any questions?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Camden;1232723 said:


> See below
> 
> Any questions?


Just the same one Matson asked earlier.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*ice*

unless you have the tractive effort from chains and tire ballast its not worth pursuing as the axles willl slip and force the the loader to swing left or right if the torque applied to the ice and or pavement breaks loose.

You also risk ripping up the asphault layer.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

So you think it would be easier for the OP to get his hands on a jet engine de-icer than tire chains for a loader.

Now you're making clear, perfect sense to me...........


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*ice*

A loader with chains is useless unless it can 
safely break the ice sheet.

I can point you to several thousand used surplus jet 
engines in excellent condition that have been sealed
and left to scrap value.

Spending $8,000.00 on chains for a once in 10 ten year
occurance would cost more than its worth.


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

Don't forget a tank or large vehicle, plus balast to mount the jet engine on.

I figure 4 grade 8 bolts should hold it togeather.

Best reading today. Thanks


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Heck, don't forget the jet fuel involved..............


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

Any idea what kind of temps a jet powered melter produces?


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*ice*

I dont know exaclty what a small jet engine produces as far as heat value.
But the air blast and heat combined are what does the work.

You can use AV gas, kerosene or diesel fuel diluted with kerosene for jet engine 
fuel in an application like this.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*ice*

During gulf war one a group of romanian oil well crews used surplus 
russian tanks with Mig engines on them to create an air blast 
that snuffed out and killed the fires on the oil wells they were assigned 
to snuff out during the conflict.


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## nms0219 (Jan 20, 2007)

what about a few bobcats with these? http://bobcat.com/attachments/scraper Sure it would take a while but 90k ?? Hell I would do it with mex cans and hand ice choppers for that kind of money


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

How about something like a flail mower to break up the ice? Or a soil conditioner?


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

nms0219;1232873 said:


> what about a few bobcats with these? http://bobcat.com/attachments/scraper Sure it would take a while but 90k ?? Hell I would do it with mex cans and hand ice choppers for that kind of money


I bought one of those and I was not impressed. It tore up hardpack really well but it had trouble with solid ice.


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## JB1 (Dec 29, 2006)

why not just use congress and all there hot air.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

goel;1232617 said:


> So Leon, what holds the jet engine in the parking lot?
> 
> I get the railroads using them, the tracks hold the machine down.


How do the tracks hold the machines down ? nothing but gravity holds the machine down.

Texas Motor speedway has several jet dryers which are essentially the same thing.


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

leon;1232796 said:


> I dont know exaclty what a small jet engine produces as far as heat value.
> But the air blast and heat combined are what does the work.
> 
> You can use AV gas, kerosene or diesel fuel diluted with kerosene for jet engine
> fuel in an application like this.


You can't use avgas/blue gas in a jet engine, avgas is for piston powered planes hence the GAS part. It's 100 octane low lead


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

At this point I think it would be both faster & cheaper to pour a few thousand gallons of fuel on the lot, light it up, and deal with the environmental fines than to take Leon's advice.....................


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

jomama45;1233263 said:


> At this point I think it would be both faster & cheaper to pour a few thousand gallons of fuel on the lot, light it up, and deal with the environmental fines than to take Leon's advice.....................


Best advice Yet........Good Job Joe....Thumbs Up.....Now its time to move on to a new set of issues.....Problem Solved....:salute:.....:waving:


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)




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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

NICHOLS LANDSCA;1233193 said:


> You can't use avgas/blue gas in a jet engine, avgas is for piston powered planes hence the GAS part. It's 100 octane low lead


Actually you can burn almost anything in a turbine engine, including a mix (gas/diesel/heavy oils) of fuels. They even have turbines that burned powdered coal.


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## qualitycut (Jan 13, 2008)

I just did a sidewalk for a guy, hey just bought the property and wasnt touched all year we scrapped the snow off there was about 6 inches of soild ice under it, we salted it and went back the next day with a 185 and it had no problem peeling back the ice so I dont know why a front end loader would have a problem?


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## miker4312 (Feb 6, 2011)

*Problems with Doing the Work*

One of the problems with doing the work was everything closed due to the ice in North Texas. I tried to get to Morton Salt but it is 100 miles away from Dallas and because of all the accidents you couldn't get there and back. One contractor I know spent 16 hours going there and back to get salt and missed out on his jobs as other guys swooped in when he couldn't get them them done quick enough. All the other places Leon mentioned were not there or not answering the phone. It was absolute chaotic around town as traveling was not easy to do. Remember the only roads that got sanded were around the Super Bowl. I saw on Service Magic that there were 14,855 request for snow removal in one day. I was on the commercial end of it but there were signs on Light post advertising Driveway and sidewalk cleaning in every neighborhood I drove past. I wonder what the average price was. You can bet it was sky high.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

i find it comical how wheel loaders work just fine for us boys up north where we actually get regular snow, but for Texas you need jet engines. guess its true what they say...


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

ProTouchGrounds;1233956 said:


> i find it comical how wheel loaders work just fine for us boys up north where we actually get regular snow, but for Texas you need jet engines. guess its true what they say...


:laughing::laughing:


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## flatlander42 (Oct 22, 2008)

I'm not sure what kind of marks it would leave....but it couldn't be worse than a loader. I know they have these in all sizes and even three point for small tractors.

Looks like it worked in this video.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Post # 35 ..... the hot air from congress ..... LMAO


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

flatlander42;1234340 said:


> I'm not sure what kind of marks it would leave....but it couldn't be worse than a loader. I know they have these in all sizes and even three point for small tractors.
> 
> Looks like it worked in this video.


Pretty slick


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

thats a vibratory aerator for lawns lol.


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## flatlander42 (Oct 22, 2008)

ProTouchGrounds;1234968 said:


> thats a vibratory aerator for lawns lol.


well yeah.....It looks like it worked for them! I can only imagine how much damage to the tips there would be.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

jomama45;1233263 said:


> At this point I think it would be both faster & cheaper to pour a few thousand gallons of fuel on the lot, light it up, and deal with the environmental fines than to take Leon\'s advice.....................


This makes far more sense than a jet engine.



ProTouchGrounds;1233956 said:


> i find it comical how wheel loaders work just fine for us boys up north where we actually get regular snow, but for Texas you need jet engines. guess its true what they say...


Makes one wonder, doesn\'t it.

Sort of wonder why no one has mentioned serrated blades for motor graders. Probably don\'t stock them in Dallas, but I bet some could be found somewhere close.

Or with all the illegals, what about a bunch of them with oxy\\acetylene torches?


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

dfd9;1235073 said:


> Or with all the illegals, what about a bunch of them with oxy\\acetylene torches?


Probably enough of them in Texas you could give each one a box of matches.


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## Dr Who (Dec 16, 2010)

Originally Posted by dfd9

Or with all the illegals, what about a bunch of them with oxy\\acetylene torches?



NICHOLS LANDSCA;1235075 said:


> Probably enough of them in Texas you could give each one a box of matches.


LOL!!!!!


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## Dr Who (Dec 16, 2010)

Back on the jet engine, they are not all that uncommon on drag strips, the small local ones around here have them to dry the track if it rains during runs, and this was 10 years or morw ago when I used to race.

I would think that you could "rent" them for the job, I think they would work, not sure if it would be better then using some heavy equipment, it sure would be a heck of a video for youtube..

I am sure you could find some Napalm from the government surplus, heck looks on craigs list Iam sure someone is selling enough to do the job...

I would think that you could use loaders, as long as you have a starting point, I am sure you could get the ice to break off the concrete.

Me, before I paid 90,000(or what ever it was) to have the ice removed, I would have the whole lot graveled, then have loaders pull out the trailers, then gravel the areas were they sat. Wait till the ice melts, scoop up the gravel and sell it back to someone... I think that would be the best/cheapest way out of this. 

Gravel is not that expensive, you can compact it into the ice by running over it with the trucks dumping it or loaders and you could drive on it without sliping all over the place
see I fixed it, were is my check?


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## excav8ter (Oct 7, 2009)

Matson Snow;1232147 said:


> Kerosene Fired Jet Engine........That is some Funny Stuff.....:laughing::laughing:


 You have never heard of that one before? I have a friend who has a Lycoming turbine engine mounted on an International truck they used at a small local airport for deicing when it got bad. Normally it just burned junk cars for show. Thumbs Up


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

How'd the guy actually de-ice this parking lot? I read all of this and heard everyone say all the thing that wouldn't work in Texas...I also wonder if they have no snowplows, do they have spreaders other than the farm tractor ones? I guess when I hear 5" of ice I think of ice on a lake...the solid kind, but I'm gonna guess there was a layer of sleet/snow because if we had gotten 5" of solid freezing rain, there'd be no super bowl because nobody would have electricity.


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## miker4312 (Feb 6, 2011)

One thing that I hadn't mentioned was that this job started at 9 AM and had to be finished by 5AM so trucks could come in and out the next morning. He used salt and bulldozers to finish as well as 5 three yard front end loaders. He put the ice on a vacant lot next to the location and the pile was one of the biggest I have ever seen. I don't know what each person was doing or if they all worked for him but I saw at least 50 people working when I drove by.
I was removing ice from loading docks around there and was asked if I could do the job that morning at 8 oclock under that deadline. I said no because I had a full day already. Department stores had these emergency management companies calling at midnight till dawn and paying big money to be open and ice free. 1500 to 2000 per store for most of them. I didnt know how much the job was paying cause I didn't consider it but if I knew I'd have thought about it a little more. I have found out that wasn't high considering guys from up north came down here and charged a lot more than I was getting. I was happy getting what I was getting but from what I understand I should have been charging more. Businesses had so much invested in the tourist end of the Super Bowl most contractors were charging 1000 to 3000 an hour. Still I'm happy.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

NICHOLS LANDSCA;1235075 said:


> Probably enough of them in Texas you could give each one a box of matches.


Good point, much cheaper and OSHA would not be an issue with matches vs torches.

OP Thanks for the update, good to hear that loaders that work in the north also work in the south.

Whudda thunk?


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

i wish I had the employees and plan in place to mobilize my equipment on short notice to take advantage, uh I mean, help out those who get hit with these monster storms lol.

remember DC last winter and Brian Young headed down there with some other members?


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## Dr Who (Dec 16, 2010)

miker4312;1236234 said:


> Businesses had so much invested in the tourist end of the Super Bowl most contractors were charging 1000 to 3000 an hour. Still I'm happy.


Super Bowl or not, that is highway robbery to charge that kind of money per hour!

I shoud had went to Tx, worked for 15-20hrs and sat on my but all rest of this year playing Xbox....


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