# Take a look at my numbers....



## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

Finished up some numbers for a group of medical buildings tonight. I know I am bidding against 2 very large outfits along with another smaller company like myself. They are all new family medical practices requiring plow w/ walks shoveled/ice melt, and salting. I would like to get them so I have put what I believe aggressive prices without going so far as to lowball. I'm afraid that I'll still get beat out by one of the larger two companies. I know you can't go by size but it will give you an idea anyway. Tell me what you think. All are 2" triggers

Prop 1.
60k sq. ft lot (few small islands, basically open)
400 ft. x 5 ft. wide walks
Plow w/ walks $175
Salt $240

Prop 2.
43k sq. ft. lot (no islands, all open)
200 ft. x 5ft. wide walks
Plow w/ walks $125
Salt $175

Prop 3.
22k sq. ft. lot (very cut up, tight corners, etc)
250 ft. x 5ft. wide walks
Plow w/ walks $125
Salt $110

Prop 4.
15k sq. ft. lot (pretty much wide open except a few peninsulas)
240 ft. x 5ft. wide walks
Plow w/ walks $110
Salt $75

We will be using (2) 3/4 ton trucks 8' straight blades w/ wings and 800lb tailgate salter, bagged salt. If I get all 4 it will be enough in addition to my current properties to require me to sub some stuff, so I have to keep that in mind also.

Thanks for your input.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

jmo, prices for plowing seam right, not real agressive but "fair". Salting i believe your a little high to compete against the "big guys" It seams like the big boys will give away the plowing to get the salting. Your disadvantage is your paying $200 or more for a pallet of salt where as most guys will be paying in the low $60 per ton of bulk. This is were most guys will win over ya.

PS 2" trigger isnt going to work either.what happens when you get 1.5", thats not going to melt away real quick


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

2" trigger is their terms but I haven't been able to discuss with the manager yet, on vacation til the day the bids are due. Also my plowing does include walks shoveled and ice melt applied. Does this still seem "fair" rather than aggressive. I'm afraid if I go much less I will be losing money if I have to sub. Like you said though the big guys are going to just about give away the plow.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

I'm not sure what portion of the salting bill is ice melt for the walks but to salt all those lots the bulk salt cost would be less the $100. That is where most small guys have trouble competing against the bigger companies.
Prop 4 is 1/4 the size of prop 1 but you want 63% of the plowing price and 46% of the salting price. Not having seen these sites there may be a reason for it.
Why in the first 2 prop. is the salt bill higher then the plow but the last 2 prop. it is lower then the plow?


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Also if these places have to be cleared to pavement all the time then triggers mean nothing. If it's 1.5" and you need to get it clear you better plow it first.

Ever thought of offering them a seasonal price?

Another thought, when you salt right after plowing you will not use much salt at all but if you have freezing rain or 3/4" of snow you will have to salt pretty heavy.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

True Prop 4 is 1/4 the size but I can't very well do it for $45. I have a base price I have to start with and go from there. Prop 1 is basically wide open and I can fly, plenty of space to put snow, so I estimate it to go fairly quick. Problem with Prop 1 is the walks, there's alot. Also, ice melt is figured into the price of the plow along with shoveling per their request. (Plow,shovel,icemelt.....one price. Salt....another price)

The reason the salt is higher in the first two rather than the last two is because of their size. at 20lbs / 1,000 you're looking at about 2,000# of salt in those two properties as opposed to 750 in the last two. I feel I'm low on the plow but it's looking like I'll have to go lower. My intent is somewhat to bait them with the plow in an effort to get the salt. 

I called last week to talk about seasonal which is when I found out about the manager not being back until Monday, which is when the bids are due. I am going to quote is as seasonal as well and just include it in the bid pack and let them do what they want with it. 

I know I won't use much salt right after plowing but don't I still have to figure it at the right application rate? I'd hate to quote it at say 10# only to find out we get freezing rain all winter and I'm spreading 20# and losing my butt. 
I appreciate the help. Still looking back over my numbers.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

My mistake was thinking the salt price was black top and sidewalks.
You are right about having a minimum.
I have 1 contract that is per time. For salting I figure out how much I would use if we plow and then how much to just salt and go somewhere in the middle. We plow on 1". Even if it is slightly under we still plow and that helps with the salting.
This business is tough. There is no set formula and no way everyone is going to do stuff for the same price. If the large companies have dedicated salt trucks and these sites are on their route you won't really be able to beat their price and that's just business.
Set your pricing where it is worth getting out of bed in the middle of the night and go to work. When you think about it we work all overtime hours and can't take a holiday in the winter. That has to be worth something.

How much are you paying for bagged salt?


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

My quoted price per skid (49 bags) was $4.25 at single skid purchases. If I got these accounts I'd probably pre buy 15 skids which was their next barrier for a price break to less than $4, not sure what "less than $4" is because at the time I wasn't envisioning needing 15 skids of salt.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

I'm guessing that's a 50lb bag.

I have a question for you. If your plowing price includes clearing and ice melt for the sidewalks what do you do when you are only salting the parking lot. In other words if you are getting $240 to do the parking area when you are only salting who is looking after the walks that day?


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

Another question I have for the manager who chose to be gone the week before bids were due. My provision will be to include ice melt charges to the walks when performing salt only no plow service. Don't have it in front of me currently but It works out to around $.30 per pound. I think I'm paying $7.25 for 50lb bags of Great White ice melt.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Looks like the guy who is asking for the bids hasn't really considered everything involved. He might take the low bid only to find he gets hit with a ton of extra's.

Too many people think plowing is so easy.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

Well here's what I submitted.

1. 140 plow/180 salt 5280 seasonal
2. 110 plow/125 salt 3820 seasonal
3. 110 plow/105 salt 3420 seasonal
4. 85 plow/ 65 salt 2320 seaonal

I'll find out this week. May or may not get them but I'll sleep just fine if I get beat out. I've got some properties that pay alot more than what I bid on these for a lot less work. It will be interesting to find out the results. I'll keep you posted.


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

Raymond S.;1087345 said:


> Well here's what I submitted.
> 
> 1. 140 plow/180 salt 5280 seasonal
> 2. 110 plow/125 salt 3820 seasonal
> ...


I think these prices look pretty decent.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Amazing how much pricing varies by region! Looking over numbers from a southern Ct. perspective,salting prices similiar , plowing pricing about 1/2 what I (try) to get.
Cost of living/ doing business here brutal! Hope you get it and make money.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

Update:
Got purchase orders today for all 4 properties. They elected to go seasonal. These will be a nice addition to my per push properties. Thanks for the comments and critiques.


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## clydebusa (Jul 10, 2010)

leigh;1087686 said:


> Amazing how much pricing varies by region! Looking over numbers from a southern Ct. perspective,salting prices similiar , plowing pricing about 1/2 what I (try) to get.
> Cost of living/ doing business here brutal! Hope you get it and make money.


Same here in Tulsa, of course we only get 2 to 4 storms a year. Lots of ice, but the salting about the same, snow push about 1/2 what I charge.


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## MarksTLC (Oct 6, 2003)

Raymond S.;1093615 said:


> Update:
> Got purchase orders today for all 4 properties. They elected to go seasonal. These will be a nice addition to my per push properties. Thanks for the comments and critiques.


Congrats. Enjoy.... Now all we need is some snow..


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Great to hear it all worked out for you.


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

Awesome! Wish I could land a job like that!


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

Good for you!


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

nice to hear our members are landing accounts. cet gave you some good advice. let us know later in the winter if something came up the wasn't preplanned very well on the account that they are new accounts- there is always something, thats why my contract kept getting more detailed over the years as i kept learning (the hard way).


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Prices a low compaired what I would have bid them at. If no walks are included I would have priced them about how you did, but because walks are included these would be my prices for the plowing:

Prop 1: $245.00
Prop 2: $170.00
Prop 3: $165.00
Prop 4: $89.00

I can't really speek for the salting because I have no idea what your salt costs are or how you handle your salting. It can be very different for everyone.

Congrats that you got it, I kinda figured you would, because I think you left A LOT of money on the table with this one. But congrats none the less.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Raymond S.;1093615 said:


> Update:
> Got purchase orders today for all 4 properties. They elected to go seasonal. These will be a nice addition to my per push properties. Thanks for the comments and critiques.





lawnlandscape;1095017 said:


> Prices a low compaired what I would have bid them at. If no walks are included I would have priced them about how you did, but because walks are included these would be my prices for the plowing:
> 
> Prop 1: $245.00
> Prop 2: $170.00
> ...




Hows the View from the cheap seats....Cant we just be happy for the guy and leave it at that....

Congrats on getting all 4......Have a Great Winter...


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

People come on this board for learning and education, which is exactly what I am attempting to help him with.

For everything I learn on this board, I attempt to give back at least as much. No one has told him his prices are extremely low, which I felt was a disservice to him. payup


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1095419 said:


> People come on this board for learning and education, which is exactly what I am attempting to help him with.
> 
> For everything I learn on this board, I attempt to give back at least as much. No one has told him his prices are extremely low, which I felt was a disservice to him. payup


His prices are low for Where...Are you in Niles, Michigan....Do you know his costs.....Do you know what his situation is.....Then you sit back and make a comment after the guy says he landed the acounts....I love this time of year..Alot of Arm chair Quarterbacks..


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks for the replies fellas. Lawnlandscape, not sure where you're at in the midwest but around here my prices aren't "extremely low." I have lost plenty of jobs to cheaper prices, snow and lawncare alike. In fact I was not the cheapest bid in this circumstance but got the contract because I offered a seasonal price which they liked because it's a hospital and budgeting is key. I knew all 4 other contractors that were bidding these and I knew if I wanted to get them I would have to be aggressive, which was pointed out early on in this thread that my pricing was "on par" but not aggressive. I continued to look at my time and materials on each job and found that I could cut a bit more and still make money. I have a nice portfolio of per push accounts with a few seasonal, along with the addition of these seasonal accounts. If we get slammed this winter, I'll more than make up for my seasonals with my per push accounts. If we don't get an inch of snow, I'll sit on the couch and make more than enough money to pay the bills and take my wife on a cruise...and then get ready for summer. 
I appreciate the insight and honestly I'm not offended in the least that you think I'm priced too low. Just letting you know some background on where I came up with my pricing and the situation. Best of luck this season.

And for the record...
In my area you would have most likely been the highest bid on 3 out of 4 of these accounts. You won't get $245 for 60k sq. ft. and 400 ft. of sidewalks. That's $125/hr for the truck and another $58 to shovel the walks. Mom and pop manufacturing buildings sure, but not on a job like this where you're up against companies that do high volume.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Matson Snow;1095432 said:


> His prices are low for Where...Are you in Niles, Michigan....Do you know his costs.....Do you know what his situation is.....Then you sit back and make a comment after the guy says he landed the acounts....I love this time of year..Alot of Arm chair Quarterbacks..


I have no idea what 'Arm Chair Quaterbacks' means however, clearly no one knows his costs or situation other then what he explained. Based on that you just gave a reason why no one should help him out, but clearly other people did.

Clearly though I don't know his exact costs I obviously have a good understanding of what ball park cost are for the snow removal industry.

If he was in my area, he would have landed these accounts because he under bid them. Personally, I would not be able to make very much money with those bids. I say this as helpful advice, not to criticize or personally attack as you seem to be fond of.

I have never listed my exact location or company name on these boards and never will. It would take away the very reason this board exists for me. I discuss many of my numbers on this board and would also give my numbers directly to the competition. There is also no customers to gain on this board, so advertising yourself will gain nothing in my opinion.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1095702 said:


> I have no idea what 'Arm Chair Quaterbacks' means however, clearly no one knows his costs or situation other then what he explained. Based on that you just gave a reason why no one should help him out, but clearly other people did.
> 
> *Clearly though I don't know his exact costs I obviously have a good understanding of what ball park cost are for the snow removal industry. *
> If he was in my area, he would have landed these accounts because he under bid them. Personally, I would not be able to make very much money with those bids. I say this as helpful advice, not to criticize or personally attack as you seem to be fond of.
> ...


Your the same guy on another thread asking what to pay his Employees...So your say you have an understanding of costs...Why Ask......I think you enjoy reading your work

Im not attacking you...Im attacking the guys that come on this time of year and Spew BS trying to be Bill Big Rig Plow Jockey....

As far as no customers to be gained...There have been plenty of guys bird dog a lead on here from some guy asking "What should i charge" and post a Map with a location on it..

I could care less about You or your company...What i do care about is Guys sitting back and coming off like they are the end all be all.....

Im really Glad you have such a Vast Knowledge of the Snow removal Business....Every thread i read that you are involved in....Its your way or nothing....their are other point of Views....

BTW.....I use to plow a 6 acre Apartment complex with 2 Toyota SR5s with 6'-7" Fisher plows.....They did just fine...Matter of fact...they did Great.....

I guess thats where it went all wrong for you and me.....When you Hijacked that thread with your Load of BS.....


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Matson Snow;1095737 said:


> Your the same guy on another thread asking what to pay his Employees...So your say you have an understanding of costs...Why Ask......I think you enjoy reading your work
> 
> Im not attacking you...Im attacking the guys that come on this time of year and Spew BS trying to be Bill Big Rig Plow Jockey....
> 
> ...


Knowing your costs and asking others what they pay their employees hourly is 2 completly different things..... That post had nothing to do with costs, it was making sure I was being fair with my employees based on what others are paying...

I never say my opinions are better OR the only way, I just state my opinions. Which exactly is the purpose for this board... is it not? I enjoy reading my work... lol, how lame of a life do you think I live.. and typing on a snow forum is work???

I have no idea why anyone would put a plow on a toyota SR5, but wow, that was a random comment......

I am very curious as to how I Hijacked a thread... I simply posted my opinion, and you attacked me.

Clearly you are wishing to start a peronal insult war with me. No Thanks. Don't know you, and even if I did, I'm just not a fan of being rude.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

*Updated*

Hey guys. It's been a few years since I landed this contract so I thought I'd come back and update it so we could all use this is a real world application. (I know, a new concept on this site.)

After quickly realizing what they really wanted was zero tolerance accounts (not 2" trigger accounts) the customer switched to per push after the first event. She admitted it was her first year dealing with the snow removal requirements and didn't know the true definition of "zero tolerance." It worked out well because 2010-11 was a year for the records around here. I think we got 156" of snow. 39 total events, 20 plow/salt and 19 salt only. We did extremely well on these accounts. Some of them were plowed initially and then salted as much as 3 times per day depending on the storm. After I got acceptance of my bid, I bought a 2011 F350 and hung a Blizzard 8611 on it. Production numbers are below.

Prop 1.
$140 plow
$180 salt
Total time on lot to plow/salt typical event 60 min.
Gross billing - product *$256*
$256/hr

Prop 2
$110 plow
$125 salt
Total time on lot to plow/salt typical event 45min
Gross billing - product *$187*
$249/hr

Prop 3
$110 plow
$105 salt
Total time on lot to plow/salt typical event 45min
Gross billing - product *$183*
$244/hr

Prop 4
$85 plow
$65 salt
Total time on lot to plow/salt typical event 30min
Gross billing - product *$126*
$252/hr

Some of you contributed alot to my questions in regards to pricing and production on these properties when I first posted this info. I appreciate that. There were a few people that thought my pricing left "alot of money on the table." I didn't think that was the case at the time and the real world numbers above reflect that. Now, obviously upgrading to the 8611 expandable plow contributed greatly to the effiiciency. This does go to show regardless of what someone tells you a property should go for in their area, it may or may not be accurate for where you are at.

Thanks for reading. Just thought some may appreciate an update. Thumbs Up


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

It is good to see an update on how it worked out. I read alot of pricing threads and always wonder the outcome. 

It looks like you did just fine on these in terms of price. I ran all of your numbers through my spreadsheet and my prices would have been 25% or so more than yours, but we only get an average of 50"s of snow. Also we have been the higher bid on most things we bid this season and have not sold a ton of new work. 

So it shows how different pricing is from area to area and how you should not just take some price you read on the internet.

Are you still using a tailgate spreader? I would guess you could drop your expenses a fair amount by adding a Vbox and running bulk. Making these even better.
Are you still servicing them?


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes we are still servicing them. We haven't moved to a Vbox yet because I like having options. If I go to a V box then I feel like I'm kind of narrowing that truck down to having to be at a lot at a given time. When we go back through during the day to resalt during an event it can get very spread out with one truck, especially when you have to hit the walks again. 
We have a good mix of other large commercial sites that get done early (4:00am, 6:00am, etc) so the way the route works out one of these properties is actually hit at 4:30am (3 hours before open) so we have a truck that goes through just before 7:00 when finished with a factory to touch up if needed. Long story short, both of our trucks have tailgate salters and one of our subs does as well. 
We are constantly adjusting the route to maximize efficiency but also to service as many of these properties between the hours of 5:30-7:30. We also have 3 other properties not listed that are 7:30 opens. We're pretty much at our limit with 2 trucks, big blades, experienced operators...and a couple of dependable subs.

edit: Just curious. Is your pricing a little higher because you expect it to take longer than what I have listed for service time, or are you using my service time and charging more per hour? With anything other than an expandable plow I would definitely expect to spend more time onsite.


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

I didn't break down time when reading just punched sqft into spreadsheet and saw what came out. 
Site 1:
Plow 140
shovel 75
Salt 210

#2 plow 100 shovel 40 salt 140
#3 plow 95 shovel 50 Salt 75
#4 plow 50 shovel 50 salt 50

Some of those are because of minimums. Again I have no idea what these look like or proximity to others or how important they are to add to a portfolio. That can all play a part in pricing also.

A point I was trying to make in my other post is a huge factor in pricing comes from overhead obvioulsy.
So if company X & Y have the same overhead for the winter but company x has 50"s of snow per season and company Y has 100" of snow per season rates can change greatly.
Company X and Y both have 10,000 overhead 2 trucks 8 hours each per event or 16 truck hours
X has 10 events per season 10x16=160hrs 
10000/160 hrs = $62.5 per hour for overhead recovery

Y has 18 events per season 18x16=288hrs
10000/288=$34.72 per hour for overhead recovery.
Again the point was people throw out all kinds of numbers but there are so many variables. People need to spend some time calculating there numbers and go with that. Then do just what the OP did and review your season and work to see how you came out.
To me I would say they were a success.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

I gotcha. Looks like we're not too far apart. I do understand what you mean with regards to snow depths. Last year we got just over 50". I think we pushed maybe a dozen events. Definitely changes your views on accounting for expenses. 
I have always tried to look at snow as a 5 yr average. Especially when everyone says "Oh you snow guys must be getting rich with all this snow." You know, because the tooth fairy pays our bills when it doesn't snow.


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