# Price for This Lot



## 1stYearPlowing

I was wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to what they would price the commercial lot below (76,000 sq/ft) with a 2" trigger. They only want the 3 aprons salted. I'm in NE Ohio. I don't know anything about commercial pricing for snow plowing but my office/warehouse is in that building, and therefore my trucks (plus, I'm always there when I'm not working), which is why I'm considering it. It would be extremely convenient with no travel time. I've read as many threads as I could on this site but I still haven't figured out what the range is for price per push when pricing it per acre. I understand that prices are different depending on many factors, including location. But it would still be helpful if a few of you would let me know what you'd charge per push or for the season for a lot that size with a 2" trigger and no sidewalks.

I wanted to be as concise as I could so the question and information are above. If anyone wants more information to get a better frame of reference I provided more info below.

Thanks, Jason










This is my first year in landscape maintenance. I started doing lawn maintenance in April and wasn't sure if I was also going to plow snow. A few months ago I decided to do snow. I came up with full service year-round, landscape maintenance plans for residential with one flat price paid monthly for 12 months. Their payments are automatically deposited into my account on the 20th of every month using ACH. The lowest plan includes mowing, chemical apps and seasonal snow plowing.

28 of my 60 customers signed up for one of the plans that include plowing. The average monthly payment for those 28 customers is $192.71. The others do their own snow and all but four renewed for lawn maintenance next year. All of the accounts are within 4 square miles of each other. 11 of the 28 paid for the entire plan upfront with the average plan being about $2,145. I subcontracted out a plow guy to do at least half of them (maybe more). Since I've never done this before I want to make sure I can get all of the accounts done in time. Also, I did a direct mail marketing campaign promoting the plans so I get a few new customers every week. I don't want to go over 45 customers so I'll stop taking them at that point.


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## ponyboy

What equipment do u have 
Can you handle it are u insured for it 
Do you have your end covered 
Guess those prices are good for u there but here you would be way low 
So I guess I can't help you with prices


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## JMHConstruction

As far as pricing, you seem big enough by now you should know your operating costs. figure you're prices on that. Unless someone lives in your area, no one can really help you there.

I will add though, I wouldn't turn down work at this point. Congrats on getting more work than you feel comfortable with in your first year. with that said I think you can handle more than you can, and if not just use your sub to help out more. Does he have experience? He should know how many he can handle, I'm sure it's more than 25. Just some food for thought. Good luck and welcome to PS.


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## ponyboy

Agreed but do u have back up equipment does your sub have back up equipment 
Growing is good but make sure u can cover all u sign


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## 1stYearPlowing

ponyboy said:


> What equipment do u have
> Can you handle it are u insured for it
> Do you have your end covered
> Guess those prices are good for u there but here you would be way low
> So I guess I can't help you with prices


I am insured for residential plowing. If I get commercial plowing accounts with salt spreading I have to upgrade my insurance which can be done with a phone call.

The prices for the residential accounts translate to an average of $35/cut, $50/chemical app @ 5 visits and $300 for a seasonal snow plow package. The lawns aren't big. 4,000 sq/ft on average. The driveways are very small as well and all very close together. I do my marketing so that I only get accounts that are close to each other. I don't advertise in newspapers, pay-per-click, yellow pages, Angie's List, etc. I send direct mail pieces to the houses in the subdivisions I want to target. And we average about 13 snow events per year. Last year we had about 5 or 6. And there is a huge advantage (to the business and the customer) to spreading the payments out over 12 months instead of receiving payments as services are performed. Customers get more services since their payments are fixed (i.e. don't have large invoices during a month with 5 weeks of mowing, a chemical app, grub app, and mulch installation) and I can plan for things and purchase supplies in larger quantities and negotiate discounts on those supplies. And don't forget that during those months when there isn't much going on (i.e. November, March, June) and you aren't paying as much labor or paying for as much fuel a large percentage of income for those months is profit. Evening out cash flow is very advantageous from a financial perspective as long as you are disciplined with the cash.

I haven't purchased my equipment yet. I'm waiting to see if I get these commercial accounts. If I get the one I posted I'll also do the other big commercial account I have for mowing and chemical apps. I will know if I get the accounts at the end of this week. Then I will get the equipment. So what I buy will depend on whether or not I'll have the commercial accounts. I'm going to get a new truck with plow and spreader and a used truck as a backup. We have a huge commercial truck dealership here and it takes a day or two to get the trucks once you know what you want to get. I have plenty of cash but will still probably finance both. I'm pre-approved for everything I need. The sub has a backup as well.

I started this business in March with $6,000. That's all I had. I've turned that into a lot. I'm very good at marketing and the business side. I can get as many customers as I want. But I'm ignorant to the technical side. So I'm learning the plowing part right now just like I learned the mowing and chemical app part in the spring and winter of last year. I will make mistakes. I'm just trying to limit them by educating myself as much as I can right now.


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## ponyboy

Well good luck sounds like u r off on a good start 
For that lit I would looks at a skid with a pusher or even a kage system


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## 1stYearPlowing

JMHConstruction said:


> As far as pricing, you seem big enough by now you should know your operating costs. figure you're prices on that. Unless someone lives in your area, no one can really help you there.
> 
> I will add though, I wouldn't turn down work at this point. Congrats on getting more work than you feel comfortable with in your first year. with that said I think you can handle more than you can, and if not just use your sub to help out more. Does he have experience? He should know how many he can handle, I'm sure it's more than 25. Just some food for thought. Good luck and welcome to PS.


Yes, I know what you're saying. But I don't want to charge way less than I could get. Although, I may have to.

Yes, the sub has experience and he knows what he's doing. He's terrible at the business end but good at the technical end. He's the one educating me on the technical side of things. Right now he can handle all of the residential accounts.


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## B-2 Lawncare

I didn't read the whole thread I just skimmed it but from what I've deduced first you need to have the equipment before you get this but I'll give you a price on what I would charge. this price is based on what I can see from the photo and if I could just blow the snow off the side of the parking lot on the out side. $1800 per push.


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## 1stYearPlowing

B-2 Lawncare said:


> I didn't read the whole thread I just skimmed it but from what I've deduced first you need to have the equipment before you get this but I'll give you a price on what I would charge. this price is based on what I can see from the photo and if I could just blow the snow off the side of the parking lot on the out side. $1800 per push.


Did you really mean $1800 per push? Or $180? The lot is 76,000 sq/ft or roughly 1.75 acres. I don't think that price is reflective of what the average is around here. I was shown some quotes for a day care that I do mowing and chemical apps for which is 15,000 sq/ft and they were around $60 per push. I also looked up the average hourly rates for snow plowing commercial lots on snow-removal.promatcher.com and it said $90 - $160/hour. At those prices it doesn't seem worth it to me.

Thank you very much for the response though. I genuinely appreciate any input. It's very difficult learning this way and learning by making mistakes is stressful. I guess it builds character though ;-)


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## 1stYearPlowing

B-2 Lawncare said:


> I didn't read the whole thread I just skimmed it but from what I've deduced first you need to have the equipment before you get this but I'll give you a price on what I would charge. this price is based on what I can see from the photo and if I could just blow the snow off the side of the parking lot on the out side. $1800 per push.


And yes I know I need the equipment. I mentioned that I'm waiting to see if I get this job before I get the equipment: a new truck/plow/spreader and a used of the same for back-up. I've got time and it will only take 2 - 3 days to get both once I'm ready. Even if I saw that we have snow coming in 5 days I would have enough time. I've got everything planned and set up.


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## B-2 Lawncare

I would be willing to come off that price and little if they sign of seasonal contract for 11 Grand. 
I guess you guys must have a shirt season there, and that's why you prices are so low. We have already gone out once this year and my contracts run until the 1st of May.


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## 1stYearPlowing

Yes, our seasons are shorter. Typically from Nov 15 - Mar 31 with an average of 15 events. Last year 5 or 6 events. If they pay seasonal should they pay all up front, half up front half later or spread it out evenly over the 5 months? 

And how would one calculate seasonal rates? Multiply per push rate times the average number of events? Or a higher number than the average number of events since it's likely to be doing more than one push per storm? So the per push rate times (average number of events x 1.5)? That formula would be helpful since it can be adjusted to the location. I know everyone's is different but how would you do it? Thanks so much for the advice!


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## John_DeereGreen

We bid seasonal as average number of services times price per service. Divided into 5 payments. 

If you price that anywhere near $1800 you'll be ridiculed. That's a 150 dollar lot in NE OH. 

About the only way you're going to touch the 160 an hour number is a loader. At least around here. Trucks are 60-100 depending on plows and operator.


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## B-2 Lawncare

I like to have the payments spread evenly over the season. How I calculate my seasonal rate is fixed cost + an additional dollar amount depending on how difficult it is to move the snow around a lot.
So in other words if you had to take all the snow and put it all in one pile on the other end of the lot the cost would be more. Also keep in mind that if you coming back and plowing when there are going to be cars in that lot you looking at a huge pain in the ass wich in my book =$$$$. 
One more peace of advice I would give is look at buying a tractor for doing this kind of work.


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## B-2 Lawncare

John_DeereGreen said:


> We bid seasonal as average number of services times price per service. Divided into 5 payments.
> 
> If you price that anywhere near $1800 you'll be ridiculed. That's a 150 dollar lot in NE OH.
> 
> About the only way you're going to touch the 160 an hour number is a loader. At least around here. Trucks are 60-100 depending on plows and operator.


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## B-2 Lawncare

I would say 1800 is a little high, but he's leaving some important information out, and I am basing this on worst case scenario. I'm also basing it on snowfall amounts in my area which equal over a hundred inches a year.


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## John_DeereGreen

You're saying that you can get over 900 per acre for plowing in Wyoming? 

If that's the case I'm moving.


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## Mark Oomkes

B-2 Lawncare said:


> I would say 1800 is a little high, but he's leaving some important information out, and I am basing this on worst case scenario. I'm also basing it on snowfall amounts in my area which equal over a hundred inches a year.


Holy crapola, with my setup I could run that lot oof in an hour. Plow the center, which is 5 passes tops, do the outer 2 in a horseshoe and zero backing up, I bet I could do it in 45 minutes.

Newbie, with lesser equipment, figure 2 hours.

300# of salt.

The whole thing is 1.75 acres.

$1800 is high even for Jersey.


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## ktfbgb

B-2 Lawncare said:


> I would say 1800 is a little high, but he's leaving some important information out, and I am basing this on worst case scenario. I'm also basing it on snowfall amounts in my area which equal over a hundred inches a year.


I too get over 100" a year and there is no way I could ever imagine getting $1800 per push. That would come out to roughly $45,000 per year for a 1.75 acre lot.


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## Mark Oomkes

B-2 Lawncare said:


> I'm also basing it on snowfall amounts in my area which equal over a hundred inches a year.


Which generally means prices go down because your overhead is spread out over more snowfalls.

_*Buffalo* is a city in Johnson County, Wyoming, United States. The population was 4,585 at the 2010 census. It is the county seat of Johnson County.[6] In recent years, the town has boomed economically due to methane production from the coal bed methane extraction method used in the Powder River Basin and surrounding areas.
_
Has the methane production increased cost of living that much?

One more question, you must plow mostly in the Bighorns?

Because according to several sources, average snowfall in Buffalo proper is 33-36".


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> Holy crapola, with my setup I could run that lot oof in an hour. Plow the center, which is 5 passes tops, do the outer 2 in a horseshoe and zero backing up, I bet I could do it in 45 minutes.
> 
> Newbie, with lesser equipment, figure 2 hours.
> 
> 300# of salt.
> 
> The whole thing is 1.75 acres.
> 
> $1800 is high even for Jersey.


$1800 would be seasonal rate for us in michigan


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## Randall Ave

Mark Oomkes said:


> Holy crapola, with my setup I could run that lot oof in an hour. Plow the center, which is 5 passes tops, do the outer 2 in a horseshoe and zero backing up, I bet I could do it in 45 minutes.
> 
> Newbie, with lesser equipment, figure 2 hours.
> 
> 300# of salt.
> 
> The whole thing is 1.75 acres.
> 
> $1800 is high even for Jersey.


Even here you would not get near that. To many guys with plows that will work for cheap.


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## 1stYearPlowing

B-2 Lawncare said:


> I like to have the payments spread evenly over the season. How I calculate my seasonal rate is fixed cost + an additional dollar amount depending on how difficult it is to move the snow around a lot.
> So in other words if you had to take all the snow and put it all in one pile on the other end of the lot the cost would be more. Also keep in mind that if you coming back and plowing when there are going to be cars in that lot you looking at a huge pain in the ass wich in my book =$$$$.
> One more peace of advice I would give is look at buying a tractor for doing this kind of work.


Thank you very much for the information. I was wondering about plowing when there are cars in a parking lot because I was also asked if I wanted to plow the 17,000sq/ft day care I mentioned earlier, and the lot is always full of cars from 7am - 6pm.

I thought about a tractor or skid or something like that...that I could also use for my spring/summer/fall services. But I decided not to bid on either of the commercial lots (even though my office/warehouse is located on one of them and when I'm not working I'm usually there) for the reason explained in the next post.


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## ktfbgb

Yes you plow when cars are in the lot. You keep the drive lanes open and push back any spots that are open while you are there. Then you come back when the lot is empty and clean it up.


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## 1stYearPlowing

Randall Ave said:


> Even here you would not get near that. To many guys with plows that will work for cheap.


Which leads me to why I decided not to bid...I have a good relationship with the decision makers for both of the commercial lots (and do the mowing/chemical apps for one) so I talked to them, explained I am not very familiar with the price points for commercial plowing and told them if they showed me what they paid last year I would do it for that same price IF I felt it was worth it to me...so either I would do it for the price they paid last year or I would decline if I felt my time was better spent doing more residential in the subdivisions where my current accounts are located.

They had no problem showing me their contract from previous years as well as multiple bids they received this year. I was SHOCKED at how little they were paying!!!

The 1.75 acre commercial lot paid $2,750 for the season two years ago and $125/push last year. They also received a bid for $100 per push this year.

The 17,000sq/ft day care paid $45/push last year and received bids this year from $40/push - $50/push. And the day care seems like a pain to plow. There are always cars in the lot and it is very irregularly shaped with not much space to push the snow.

I wouldn't take the jobs for double those prices. I don't understand how companies can sustain their business with those prices. And...maybe they don't. I wouldn't be surprised. But that is not worth it at all for me. I package the residential snow plow prices in the customers' landscape maintenance services for the rest of the year and charge a monthly flat fee for 12 months. And when calculated out I'm making around $25/push at the average amount of snow events for small driveways. AND the accounts are all right next to each other. They are all in a few different subdivisions and those subdivisions are adjacent to each other. I'll stick with that and then adapt my business model based on what I experience during my first winter. I just started the mowing and chemical apps this spring and when it was time to renew their contracts I completely changed my pricing structure, based on my experience, observations and analysis, and it worked out extremely well. I imagine it will be the same for snow. I can read up and educate myself all I want but nothing is as informative as actual experience.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your advice! And just in case you all were wondering...those are the commercial prices for NE Ohio. Although, I will say that these two business are the types of businesses that will spend the absolute minimum on snow plowing...even if it means lower quality service. I know for a fact that not all businesses here are like that. So those are the low end of the price point.


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## ktfbgb

1stYearPlowing said:


> Which leads me to why I decided not to bid...I have a good relationship with the decision makers for both of the commercial lots (and do the mowing/chemical apps for one) so I talked to them, explained I am not very familiar with the price points for commercial plowing and told them if they showed me what they paid last year I would do it for that same price IF I felt it was worth it to me...so either I would do it for the price they paid last year or I would decline if I felt my time was better spent doing more residential in the subdivisions where my current accounts are located.
> 
> They had no problem showing me their contract from previous years as well as multiple bids they received this year. I was SHOCKED at how little they were paying!!!
> 
> The 1.75 acre commercial lot paid $2,750 for the season two years ago and $125/push last year. They also received a bid for $100 per push this year.
> 
> The 17,000sq/ft day care paid $45/push last year and received bids this year from $40/push - $50/push. And the day care seems like a pain to plow. There are always cars in the lot and it is very irregularly shaped with not much space to push the snow.
> 
> I wouldn't take the jobs for double those prices. I don't understand how companies can sustain their business with those prices. And...maybe they don't. I wouldn't be surprised. But that is not worth it at all for me. I package the residential snow plow prices in the customers' landscape maintenance services for the rest of the year and charge a monthly flat fee for 12 months. And when calculated out I'm making around $25/push at the average amount of snow events for small driveways. AND the accounts are all right next to each other. They are all in a few different subdivisions and those subdivisions are adjacent to each other. I'll stick with that and then adapt my business model based on what I experience during my first winter. I just started the mowing and chemical apps this spring and when it was time to renew their contracts I completely changed my pricing structure, based on my experience, observations and analysis, and it worked out extremely well. I imagine it will be the same for snow. I can read up and educate myself all I want but nothing is as informative as actual experience.
> 
> Anyway, thanks everyone for your advice! And just in case you all were wondering...those are the commercial prices for NE Ohio. Although, I will say that these two business are the types of businesses that will spend the absolute minimum on snow plowing...even if it means lower quality service. I know for a fact that not all businesses here are like that. So those are the low end of the price point.


What you have to remember is that you are late to the game for the commercial. You were dealing with businesses that take the chance on holding out till the last minute in hopes of getting the desperate contractor to bid it ultra cheap in order to fill their route. Start out way earlier next year for the accounts who are serious about keeping their lots safe and will pay for the good service. Also take notes this winter on what lots you have identified that you want that are receiving poor service. Wether it's late service or sloppy or whatever. Take pictures even. Then next year approach them early show them the pics and the times etc. and let them know you can provide a superior service. Hell if there is a lot you really want and you have your route down and want to extend it this year stop in mid storm and let them know you can do it better. Most contracts have a clause for termination if the contractor is not performing as expected you can pick them up for the rest of the year.


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## JMHConstruction

With one truck, you're not going to get rich doing this. Even with only doing your residentials. They guys who are making what you're thinking in your mind have many pieces of equipment. Look at it as a way to contribute to your bottom line, and stay busy while you otherwise wouldn't be working.


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## Mark Oomkes

1stYearPlowing said:


> They had no problem showing me their contract from previous years as well as multiple bids they received this year. I was SHOCKED at how little they were paying!!!


First of all, since you didn't put it in your info and I'm not going to look through your posts, where are you located?

Oops, NE Ohio. This helps, how close to Erie?



1stYearPlowing said:


> The 1.75 acre commercial lot paid $2,750 for the season two years ago and $125/push last year.


And???



1stYearPlowing said:


> The 17,000sq/ft day care paid $45/push last year and received bids this year from $40/push - $50/push.


And???



1stYearPlowing said:


> I wouldn't take the jobs for double those prices. I don't understand how companies can sustain their business with those prices. And...maybe they don't.


So let me get this straight.

1) You readily admit not knowing anything about commercial pricing.
2) You claim to understand pricing varies by region.
3) You've never plowed before, but have subbed out half your contracted driveways because you're worried about not getting them done in a timely manner.

But now you stating that you wouldn't plow that lot for those prices, all the while stating you have no idea how to price, pricing varies and worried about having over 45 driveways within a 4 mile circle.

So you won't take them for that price, but what if that's all your market will bear? How do you know that you or the others can't make money at those prices?

I already said an experienced plower, set up properly can do the 1.75 acre lot in 45-60 minutes. So $125\hour isn't high enough for you? Even though you don't know how to price commercial plowing? What is your rate that you "think" you should be getting? If you go to Erie, they're plowing for $40-$45\hour.

There's 2 things that go into pricing. Your costs and what your market will bear. If your costs are higher than what your market will bear, you're going to be staying home. Or, you have to figure out a way to cover your costs and profit while charging what the market will bear.

If you don't know anything about commercial pricing, your claim that you wouldn't do it for that price much less double those prices is pure arrogance and ignorance. You better get over both of them if you want to succeed.

PS I could make money on just about every snowfall under 6" for those rates. But what do I know? I just started plowing 30 years ago and have been pricing work for over 15 years.


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## BUFF




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## SnoFarmer

I think, mark is trying to say something?


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer said:


> I think, mark is trying to say something?


I am, but after my sessions at Buzzy's People Skills Resort and Emporium, I am doing it nicely now.

A few years back, I would have said it in a word or two, which would have resulted in my post count going backwards, a nastygram from MJD, etc.


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> First of all, since you didn't put it in your info and I'm not going to look through your posts, where are you located?
> 
> Oops, NE Ohio. This helps, how close to Erie?
> 
> And???
> 
> And???
> 
> So let me get this straight.
> 
> 1) You readily admit not knowing anything about commercial pricing.
> 2) You claim to understand pricing varies by region.
> 3) You've never plowed before, but have subbed out half your contracted driveways because you're worried about not getting them done in a timely manner.
> 
> But now you stating that you wouldn't plow that lot for those prices, all the while stating you have no idea how to price, pricing varies and worried about having over 45 driveways within a 4 mile circle.
> 
> So you won't take them for that price, but what if that's all your market will bear? How do you know that you or the others can't make money at those prices?
> 
> I already said an experienced plower, set up properly can do the 1.75 acre lot in 45-60 minutes. So $125\hour isn't high enough for you? Even though you don't know how to price commercial plowing? What is your rate that you "think" you should be getting? If you go to Erie, they're plowing for $40-$45\hour.
> 
> There's 2 things that go into pricing. Your costs and what your market will bear. If your costs are higher than what your market will bear, you're going to be staying home. Or, you have to figure out a way to cover your costs and profit while charging what the market will bear.
> 
> If you don't know anything about commercial pricing, your claim that you wouldn't do it for that price much less double those prices is pure arrogance and ignorance. You better get over both of them if you want to succeed.
> 
> PS I could make money on just about every snowfall under 6" for those rates. But what do I know? I just started plowing 30 years ago and have been pricing work for over 15 years.


The reason he wont do it for that is because someone put it in his head that it should go for $1800. I would really like to see him put a quote in for $1800. per lowblue:


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## cjames808

I sell plow contracts in my flip flops. Not really but it is definitely hot out when I'm measuring and meeting with property managers.

The heavy dollar gigs were the early birds that don't go for low ballers because they do no want to get screwed or embarrassed.

And by the looks in my area and pricing I would be in the $150-200 range. Seems low priority so blast it with two trucks in 30 minutes later in the route.


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer said:


> I think, mark is trying to say something?


It appears that the OP\Elvis has left the building.


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## FredG

LapeerLandscape said:


> The reason he wont do it for that is because someone put it in his head that it should go for $1800. I would really like to see him put a quote in for $1800. per lowblue:


LOL $1800.00 per push. With all the other work you could do this would be a good season. payup


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## Randall Ave

Me thinks you scared him away.


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## cjames808

Stop it!

He probably saw it was going to snow tomorrow and went to buy 2 trucks.


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## FredG

Maybe he is trying to grasp the concept of the above threads.  Give him sometime.


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## Mike_PS

ok, let's close this out...if the OP comes back and wants to revisit this, he can send me a message and I can re-open

thanks :waving:


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