# Help Selecting Plow for Deere 544J



## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

Hey Gang!
I have also posted this in the Heavy Equipment Forum but thought there might be some who frequent this forum and may not see it in the HE forum.
I haven't been on the site much lately (except for help in Western Plow Forum) and I'm back here now looking for some valuable Plowsite advice.

For several years I have had an '04 544J (low hourThumbs Up) that I have not been using much for snow removal. I have installed a third valve, and have a JRB model 416 coupler but I have not installed the coupler yet and am still running the pin on bucket. For the first time in many years we are experiencing a winter with a significant amount of snow fall. I have about (7) subdivisions, +/- 35 rural driveways (some paved, most gravel, many have long, meandering narrow drives (+/-12' wide), and then typical turn around and wider areas at the house), and a couple of propane yards. I am currently using the loader to help with the driveways, once I'm done doing the main roads, as it takes the skid steer (my son in an A300 w/100" snow bucket) a few more hours to finish the driveways. We are already to the point of needing to push back as I must go 20-25 MPH to get the snow up over the windrows at the edge of the roads. While this is fun launching the snow, like I'm blowing it, it's not ideal for safety (blows and packs the snow onto the windshield, and possible hard impacts with proud rocks) and can take several passes to make a difference and get cleaned up. 
So that's the situation and here's the question at hand. I am trying to select a plow that will give me the most bang for the buck. As you probably know I am looking at sending upwards of $20k for a quality attachment. In my town, the Deere dealer sells Rylind MFG. attachments, and Worksite Pro (Deere) attachments. The Rylind is available almost immediately and the W/S Pro would take a while to order in. I am currently thinking about a 12' wide plow. The W/S is a trip edge design (I haven't seen them) and my salesman says that he has sold a few and that the customers are not happy because the trip edge design trips to frequently due the weight and forces of the loader. I have seen some Rylind products before and they are built very stout. I'm not sure which version he is offering at the moment (I'll know more tomorrow). They make a trip edge version (reverse trip w/ spring canisters at the top of the plow) and a non-trip edge version with an A style push frame and 3" diameter pivot. The trip version also has an oscillation feature. The non-trip version can be used for dirt as well (this would add some versatility and value as I am an excavation contractor as well). I would also consider a Kage pusher as I can see the box giving me the opportunity to do large lots but I am concerned about the tripping feature. I would like to have the security of a trip edge for pavement/curb locations (not currently plowing "in town" lots though) yet I don't want something that will trip too easily. I also like the "floating" type hitch design as well. I do not know anyone with this system and the only thing I can find on the 'net is the one Kage video with the Kawasaki Z50 loader. I would also consider an HLA or Metal Pless plow (with the rotational actuators) that converts to a box, reverse box, or just a wider plow. While this seems to offer the most versatility I also have some concerns with these as well. I have heard that the actuators can be a bit fragile, and that the wings are also susceptible to damage. This is particularly a concern for the winging back I will need to do the widen the roads. I would think that this would put a lot of stress on the wings. I believe that they both are also a trip edge design, and would also give me the ability to do lots if the opportunity arose. I have also seen the Henke plow and it even comes with a wing, and tower, mounted to the angle blade frame. It looks like a good road set up but it might be asking a lot of a 3 yard loader to push a 12' blade and use the wing at the same time. Maybe one would have to use one at a time (depending on conditions). I know that there are other manufacturers I have not mentioned. Please feel free to recommend any. 
Another thing to consider (though not really an issue now as the ground is frozen pretty hard) is that we often have snow and then sun and relatively warm temps. This makes the gravel road surfaces a bit soft and very easy to plow the gravel along with the snow. Think spring like plowing conditions. This winter we are mostly having highs in the low thirties and lows in the single digits. This is making for frozen ground conditions but we often see daytime highs in the 40s in winter. 
The Rylind blade will cost me about $17k I have been told. I was quoted a Kage several years ago and it was about $15k. The others I don't know what the cost would be. It would be nice to know what the others would cost. I've heard that Paul has now become a rep for Metal Pless so hopefully he will have some good advice as well. I have come to trust his experience and advice since considering the high volume resi-blower model that he has introduced to this forum.
I would appreciate any advice on the selection of the attachment that will best fit my diverse needs.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Get the trip blade, yes you could use the non trip for dirt work but in dirt a 544 isn't going to be able to push a 12' blade.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

beanz27;2092710 said:


> Get the trip blade, yes you could use the non trip for dirt work but in dirt a 544 isn't going to be able to push a 12' blade.


I agree that the 544 would not be anywhere near big enough to fill the blade but maybe as a knock down machine. Regardless, the dirt worthiness speaks to how stout the blade would be. I have been at this juncture before, and decided trip edge would be better for snow removal, but now I'm afraid that it would trip too much (based on what I've heard).


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

I have a kage blade that I push with my takeuchi skid loader. Earlier today I used it to push back the edges along an 1/4mi driveway at a neighbors horse farm. My boss dxt plow on my pickup would just keep continuously tripping and the kage blade on the skid steer did it effortlessly. The banks were about a foot tall frozen slush and the trip edge of the kage only tripped when it dug into the gravel driveway (not everything here is froze yet) and not at all while winging back the driveway. The trip edge of the kage seems to trip right about when it should, curbs, rough parking lot sections, drains/man hole covers, unfrozen ground, rocks, stumps, etc but holds it's normal position when plowing things that you should be plowing with it. I've never used a kage on a wheel loader but I'd imagine they would work about the same and the trip feature would be similar as well. Having the box attachment is awesome as well, I did my parents driveway and or shop with the box attachment on, dumped that off and used just the blade at the horse farm which would have been very difficult to do with a normal push box without wrecking something.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

DGODGR;2092866 said:


> I agree that the 544 would not be anywhere near big enough to fill the blade but maybe as a knock down machine. Regardless, the dirt worthiness speaks to how stout the blade would be. I have been at this juncture before, and decided trip edge would be better for snow removal, but now I'm afraid that it would trip too much (based on what I've heard).


Look at your area small towns, my hometown had a loader with a blade and wing. They've since went to a truck because of politics. But ask the super. You'll want trip, just imagine finding a manhole cruising at 12-15 mph, nothing gives easy on a loader-now you replace the manhole yourself, and at that speed it won't be just a ring.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

You should look at Snow Wolf too. I know they make an 11' Ultra Plow now, but no Fasttach for it. Or 10' or 12' Alpha Plow. I think they are built really tough.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

beanz27;2093069 said:


> Look at your area small towns, my hometown had a loader with a blade and wing. They've since went to a truck because of politics. But ask the super. You'll want trip, just imagine finding a manhole cruising at 12-15 mph, nothing gives easy on a loader-now you replace the manhole yourself, and at that speed it won't be just a ring.


My local DEERE salesman is saying that he has sold some Worksite Pro trip edge units to a local municipality and that they are not happy with them.....they report that they trip too much. I certainly don't want to hit a MH cover at any speed. I've hit one before on a backhoe and that just about put me through the windshield (I was not going very fast either!). To be clear, I am currently plowing private, gravel, subdivision roads (I may not have specified that in first post) and there are no manholes, or water valves in any of them. The only thing that I may hit in the roadbed might be an occasional proud rock. I still believe that the trip edge will be a better option (as long as it doesn't trip too much). I also have the opportunity to do oil field work with said plow. In that scenario I would be plowing dirt roads, and well pads, that will probably have a lot of snow on them before the trigger is ever pulled. They will also have had a fair amount of traffic on them before there is enough build up (or accumulation) for them to want to spend the money on plowing.
I know that I am looking for a VERY versatile attachment. It seems as though there is a lot for me to consider in order to get the most value for this substantial investment. This is why I am reaching out to you all. 
Mark, I am not sure that your experience will be comparable to mine. I do see the value, and versatility, of the Kage system, and it looks like the skid steer units (I think that the are called Snowfire) and the larger wheel loader units (Snowstorm?) are designed the same. I am not sure if the two systems would react the same since the loaders are so much bigger (mine weighs 30k#), and exert much more force to the plow than a skid steer would. I appreciate skid steer reviews as they can speak to the versatility and durability of the brand but not specifically how they will perform, or last, in front of a loader. I would really love to hear from those who have any experience with the Kage installed on a 3 yard loader? If so, please let me know how it is working for you. 
I appreciate all the feedback thus far, please keep it coming.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Craig manufacturing makes a heavy angle blade that I'd run for your type of plowing and they're pretty much bullet proof. I will bet my life on it that you will fold up a Kage and drive over it. A 5000 series Horst or Heavy metal plessis might suit you needs http://www.craigattachments.com/wl0600/


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Sorry for chiming in late, I am freezing my but off in Minnesota and was just made aware of this post. I truly believe that the best plow for a 30K# machine is the Metal Pless Maxxpro. Metal Pless excels in heavy equipment plows. The Maxxpro is specifically designed for the heavier class loaders that the OP is referring to. But before I go any further I do want to mention that I find it dangerous plowing with a plow without a trip edge. There has to be some kind of safety built into a plow that something must give should it catch an obstacle. No matter how well you know your site winter has a way of making obstacles appear under the snow that were not there before. Ok enough said, you all know my point of view on that issue. With what the OP described that he will be plowing the Maxxpro with its softdrive trip edge is ideal for his situation. Should you catch obstacles or even uneven patches of frozen gravel or dirt the softdrive trip edge will fold back without lifting the plow up, relieving jolts on the plow, the machine pushing the plow and the operator. Now let’s talk about the wings on the Maxxpro. Metal Pless is the only plow manufacturer that makes its wings from CHT 400 steel. This is a high density wear resisentent steel that is 4 times stronger than regular steel. That means that our ¾ inch wings are equivalent to 3 inches of regular steel. The reason Metal Pless uses CHT 400 steels is to get the added strength but keep the weight down on the plow. The wings also have the same trip mechanism as the main moldboard giving you an added protection for the wings along with our standard relieve valves. Now as foe which Maxxpro to get, I would suggest as small as the 1048-18, but he can go as large as the 1248-22. That is my two cents, I hope it is helpful.


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

Definately not a kage or snow wolf on a wheel loader


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## mnsnowfighter (Oct 31, 2010)

*544 plow*

Depending on what your budget it will dictate what plow is best for your scenario. We have run virnig, wausau, kage, arctic sectional, pro-tech, boss, falls, you name it and we've ran it. The best advice is to figure out exactly what 85% of your work will be for the piece and go from there. Just because this one event that needs push back doesn't mean your going to need to buy the most expensive option to do the job. We have always made sure and have plans that if it does snow that much we bring out the loader blower and push back that way. As far as my opinion I run a Kage on my 624J loader but the Metal Pless is a very good plow also.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

JD Dave;2093521 said:


> Craig manufacturing makes a heavy angle blade that I'd run for your type of plowing and they're pretty much bullet proof. I will bet my life on it that you will fold up a Kage and drive over it. A 5000 series Horst or Heavy metal plessis might suit you needs http://www.craigattachments.com/wl0600/


The Craig MFG plow does look stout. It looks like they offer a wing option as well. I first saw that option on a Henke plow and I like the way those (2) MFRs have a wing tower mounted to the loader push frame. This looks like a rather cool set up for roads. I'm not sure that I like extra width of the wing (while folded up) for the driveways but the wing looks fantastic for pushing back the windrows. It looks like Metal Pless offers a winged unit (Wingmaxx) too but it doesn't have the tower for the leading edge of the wing. Do you have any experience with the Kages Dave? Thanks for contributing to the conversation Dave.



Neige;2094106 said:


> Sorry for chiming in late, I am freezing my but off in Minnesota and was just made aware of this post. I truly believe that the best plow for a 30K# machine is the Metal Pless Maxxpro. Metal Pless excels in heavy equipment plows. The Maxxpro is specifically designed for the heavier class loaders that the OP is referring to. But before I go any further I do want to mention that I find it dangerous plowing with a plow without a trip edge. There has to be some kind of safety built into a plow that something must give should it catch an obstacle. No matter how well you know your site winter has a way of making obstacles appear under the snow that were not there before. Ok enough said, you all know my point of view on that issue. With what the OP described that he will be plowing the Maxxpro with its softdrive trip edge is ideal for his situation. Should you catch obstacles or even uneven patches of frozen gravel or dirt the softdrive trip edge will fold back without lifting the plow up, relieving jolts on the plow, the machine pushing the plow and the operator. Now let's talk about the wings on the Maxxpro. Metal Pless is the only plow manufacturer that makes its wings from CHT 400 steel. This is a high density wear resisentent steel that is 4 times stronger than regular steel. That means that our ¾ inch wings are equivalent to 3 inches of regular steel. The reason Metal Pless uses CHT 400 steels is to get the added strength but keep the weight down on the plow. The wings also have the same trip mechanism as the main moldboard giving you an added protection for the wings along with our standard relieve valves. Now as foe which Maxxpro to get, I would suggest as small as the 1048-18, but he can go as large as the 1248-22. That is my two cents, I hope it is helpful.


Thanks for joining in the conversation Paul. Did, or do (I'm not sure if you are still associated with your snow removal company anymore), you run any Metal Pless plows? I do recall us having a discussion about the HLAs before but I don't think you mentioned MP at that time. I have always been looking at a loader attachment (vs. mounted to an AG tractor) so maybe I steered the conversation toward the HLA. I'm not sure the extra cost (don't even know how much more it would add) would be worth while, but how would the Live Edge work on rural gravel roads? It seems to be getting a lot of attention on this site. What is the difference between this system and the Soft Drive? It seems like it would probably work well with in town lots, should that opportunity arrise in the future, but maybe it's not ideal for gravel roads (or is expense the only drawback?). If I'm not salting would the extra expense be worth it? Are there any drawbacks to the Live Edge? What type of support is available in the US (this would apply to the HLA and Craig plows as well)? What about lead time? When I got my quote on Monday (my dealer actually sells Rylind and Henke) I was told that they no longer have anything in stock, for rent or purchase, and that the lead time is 45 and 60 days respectively. Winter will be mostly over by that time and I would probably be better served to wait for preseason or show pricing in the future. Is this so for a Metal Pless as well?



mnsnowfighter;2094727 said:


> Depending on what your budget it will dictate what plow is best for your scenario. We have run virnig, wausau, kage, arctic sectional, pro-tech, boss, falls, you name it and we've ran it. The best advice is to figure out exactly what 85% of your work will be for the piece and go from there. Just because this one event that needs push back doesn't mean your going to need to buy the most expensive option to do the job. We have always made sure and have plans that if it does snow that much we bring out the loader blower and push back that way. As far as my opinion I run a Kage on my 624J loader but the Metal Pless is a very good plow also.


Thanks for joining the conversation. As it stands I'm working the loader on rural gravel subdivision roads and driveways. This would logically be my focus for the attachment. My point in this conversation though is to find something that will serve this application best but will also offer me the versatility to be diverse enough to put the machine, and attachment, on other projects as well. This is a big investment and I've been in business long enough to know that times change and I want to be able to switch gears if I need to, or want to. As an example, a few years ago my primary work was a 10 acres of parking lots and several miles of sidewalks. Now I have several rural subdivisions and lots of driveways. Things change and I want to make an informed decision so that I may change with them.
As I read it, your opinion seems a bit vague to me. You mentioned that you are running a Kage on your 624J. Can you please elaborate on how it works for you, your application, etc.? Have you run a Metal Pless? Can you elaborate on that too? I certainly would like to have a blower attachment for my loader. This, most likely would be an even larger investment and a much narrower application. In the mountainous terrain that I live, and work in, I would be, in most situations, limited to operating the unit on the road itself (not really any shoulders) so once I started doing this operation I would then have vertical edges and could no longer effectively windrow past the edges. This would force me to have to plow, and then blow (or just blow) each event. This is definitely better for me financially yet it seems that it is not ideal for the customer when considering service provided (how long it would take to get the roads open and/or getting to the next customer) or cost. I am open to other points of view on this as well so please feel free to offer discussion.

Thanks for all the contributions thus far. I'd look forward to more.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

DGODGR;2095122 said:


> Thanks for joining in the conversation Paul. Did, or do (I'm not sure if you are still associated with your snow removal company anymore), you run any Metal Pless plows? I do recall us having a discussion about the HLAs before but I don't think you mentioned MP at that time. I have always been looking at a loader attachment (vs. mounted to an AG tractor) so maybe I steered the conversation toward the HLA. I'm not sure the extra cost (don't even know how much more it would add) would be worth while, but how would the Live Edge work on rural gravel roads? It seems to be getting a lot of attention on this site. What is the difference between this system and the Soft Drive? It seems like it would probably work well with in town lots, should that opportunity arrise in the future, but maybe it's not ideal for gravel roads (or is expense the only drawback?). If I'm not salting would the extra expense be worth it? Are there any drawbacks to the Live Edge? What type of support is available in the US (this would apply to the HLA and Craig plows as well)? What about lead time? When I got my quote on Monday (my dealer actually sells Rylind and Henke) I was told that they no longer have anything in stock, for rent or purchase, and that the lead time is 45 and 60 days respectively. Winter will be mostly over by that time and I would probably be better served to wait for preseason or show pricing in the future. Is this so for a Metal Pless as well.


I guess it has been a while, as for your first question I sold my business last year to my two brothers and the commercial part to two employees Rye and Chris. I am now a paid sales rep for Metal Pless, that being said if I did not believe they are one of the best plows on the market I could not represent them.
I talked to my sales manager last night and we both agree that the LiveEdge option may be to aggressive for gravel roads. It sounds to me that you will be -plowing gravel over pavement most of the time, so our HD model would be the best fit. This video shows how the soft drive works. 



We have plows in stock ready to ship within a week. I hope That answered these questions, bring on more if you have them.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I've never owned a Live edge before but I would think it would be better then a normal plow as when running our Arctic Pushers they were the best plow we'd ever used on gravel as they never dig in. I'd trust Paul's opinion as he won't steer you in the wrong direction. I have never personally owned a Craig but they've been building blades for more then 20 years as we have looked at many years ago when there weren't many manufacturers making them for loaders and tractors. They are built incredibly stout and from what I'm surmising from reading your posts you need something to stand up.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Live edge works amazing for gravel but would find it hard to justify as there are no salt savings


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I know people will not like my opinion on a Kage or Snow Wolf but the best thing for those plows is to be left at the dealers. There is nothing special about them and I have no clue why anyone would buy one. If you need a pusher and an angle blade buy a wing plow. I've seen the Kage wheel loader blade in person and I wouldn't even consider buying one as they're not built heavy enough and for the life of me can't understand why anyone would want that type of blade.


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

Live edge pushers work excellent on gravel lots
And again no kage or snow wolf on loaders just to flimsy for my taste


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Well it looks like I may have been wrong about the LiveEdge on gravel. I personally have very little experience plowing gravel so I assumed the LiveEdge would pull up more gravel then a standard cutting edge. Thanks to others with more experience using LiveEdge on gravel we have a clearer idea how it handles gravel. Thanks for the feedback, you see even at 53 years old I am still learning.


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

Neige;2096435 said:


> Well it looks like I may have been wrong about the LiveEdge on gravel. I personally have very little experience plowing gravel so I assumed the LiveEdge would pull up more gravel then a standard cutting edge. Thanks to others with more experience using LiveEdge on gravel we have a clearer idea how it handles gravel. Thanks for the feedback, you see even at 53 years old I am still learning.


Paul I spoke with your Hamilton rep Nick. Had a few questions and he answered them all, he also wants to see if he can get me a Liveboxx to demo? I really hope he doesn't come thru cause I'm a sucker for cool stuff.. you probably don't remember me as we met a last yr LO gtg lunch at Jacks? I'm definitely not a big player like JD or Chad, but I totally get the cost savings once the blade is paid for..


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

JD Dave;2095970 said:


> I know people will not like my opinion on a Kage or Snow Wolf but the best thing for those plows is to be left at the dealers. There is nothing special about them and I have no clue why anyone would buy one. If you need a pusher and an angle blade buy a wing plow. I've seen the Kage wheel loader blade in person and I wouldn't even consider buying one as they're not built heavy enough and for the life of me can't understand why anyone would want that type of blade.


Glad to hear someone like you say that. I have absolutely 0 experience plowing commercial but thought it was a dumb idea from the start. Leaving half of your plow somewhere while wind rowing just isn't realistic. who wants to leave there pusher part (kage) half way across a parking lot and then come back and hook it on. An mp of snow wing will also kill the thing for back dragging since its just a regular old strait plow instead of a reversed box. They think it's such a genius idea for condo complex's but those places are so tight theres never any where to put the stupid kage and if you do find a place by the time you're done back dragging the driveways you'd almostt be faster just to use the strait blade instead of hooking back onto it and the going back to where you where working.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

Neige;2095804 said:


> I guess it has been a while, as for your first question I sold my business last year to my two brothers and the commercial part to two employees Rye and Chris. I am now a paid sales rep for Metal Pless, that being said if I did not believe they are one of the best plows on the market I could not represent them.
> I talked to my sales manager last night and we both agree that the LiveEdge option may be to aggressive for gravel roads. It sounds to me that you will be -plowing gravel over pavement most of the time, so our HD model would be the best fit. This video shows how the soft drive works.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply Paul. I hope that you are happy with your decision to move on from the business and that whatever you are doing will bring you what you are looking for. 
I have come up with a couple more questions. 
1) Please correct me if I'm wrong on this but the MP mold board looks like it is almost straight, not curved. I wonder how this will influence the "rolling" effect (the ability to roll the snow up, and over itself, vs. the snow simply sitting in a lump, to better fill the box/blade, and allow one to effectively push more snow) that is often talked about on the site? 
2) Other brands employ the rotational actuators (often the discussed as a possible weak link on this site) and it looks like the MP plow does not use them. To me it looks like they use either (2) or (4) conventional hydraulic rams (maybe depending upon the plow being a MAXXPRO or a PLOWMAXX?) with a fulcrum between them. Is my understanding correct? Could you please discuss how your wing operate and the pros and cons as you see them? Could you please post detailed pictures or links so that I/we can see the design?
3) I have seen the video of the LiveEdge, and now the SoftEdge, in action. They both look like they are a segmented (24" segments) tripping cutting edge. Can you please explain how the LiveEdge works and how it is different than the SoftEdge?
4) Can you please tell us how much more the LiveEdge upgrade costs (as a percentage)?
5) Does the MP employ some sort of "slip hitch"?



Neige;2096435 said:


> Well it looks like I may have been wrong about the LiveEdge on gravel. I personally have very little experience plowing gravel so I assumed the LiveEdge would pull up more gravel then a standard cutting edge. Thanks to others with more experience using LiveEdge on gravel we have a clearer idea how it handles gravel. Thanks for the feedback, you see even at 53 years old I am still learning.


It is not often easy to admit when one is wrong. It speaks to your integrity, and credibility to see this post. Regardless of age, if one is not learning, one is just closed minded, and not actually truly living (how prophetic!).
To those of you who are plowing with a LiveEdge on gravel, How does it work when plowing over gravel that is not frozen?



JD Dave;2095836 said:


> I've never owned a Live edge before but I would think it would be better then a normal plow as when running our Arctic Pushers they were the best plow we'd ever used on gravel as they never dig in. I'd trust Paul's opinion as he won't steer you in the wrong direction. I have never personally owned a Craig but they've been building blades for more then 20 years as we have looked at many years ago when there weren't many manufacturers making them for loaders and tractors. They are built incredibly stout and from what I'm surmising from reading your posts you need something to stand up.


It has been a long time since I have frequented this site. Yet I know that, at least for me, Paul has contributed immeasureable value to this site, and the industry. He has shared a lifetime of knowledge on a public forum (to whit his competitors can gain insight as well), and in doing so has bettered us all. He has made himself available to answer many of my questions and has earned a level of respect in my eyes. I feel that you have done so as well Dave. Thank you both.

Paul, I sent you a PM. I have not gotten a reply yet. Have you seen it?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

JD Dave;2095970 said:


> I know people will not like my opinion on a Kage or Snow Wolf but the best thing for those plows is to be left at the dealers. There is nothing special about them and I have no clue why anyone would buy one. If you need a pusher and an angle blade buy a wing plow. I've seen the Kage wheel loader blade in person and I wouldn't even consider buying one as they're not built heavy enough and for the life of me can't understand why anyone would want that type of blade.


Kage 12' weighs 2,375 lbs. Snow Wolf 12' weighs 2,217 lbs. That seems pretty heavy to me. Metal Pless weighs more because they open wider and have many more parts involved. I think there is something to be said for simplicity too, less parts to break and maintain. I do like the Metal Pless plows and think they are built well, though I've never seen one in person but have seen the other two. I couldn't see a weight on the Craig Plow.



SNOWLORD;2096215 said:


> Live edge pushers work excellent on gravel lots
> And again no kage or snow wolf on loaders just to flimsy for my taste


I think you could say the box add ons for Kage would have to be used with care, but the plow themselves are not flimsy. Snow Wolf has no box add ons for their loader plows, and the plows look very well built.



NickSnow&Mow;2096467 said:


> Glad to hear someone like you say that. I have absolutely 0 experience plowing commercial but thought it was a dumb idea from the start. Leaving half of your plow somewhere while wind rowing just isn't realistic. who wants to leave there pusher part (kage) half way across a parking lot and then come back and hook it on. An mp of snow wing will also kill the thing for back dragging since its just a regular old strait plow instead of a reversed box. They think it's such a genius idea for condo complex's but those places are so tight theres never any where to put the stupid kage and if you do find a place by the time you're done back dragging the driveways you'd almostt be faster just to use the strait blade instead of hooking back onto it and the going back to where you where working.


Coming from your years of experience Nick??:laughing:

They are actually a very versatile tool imo, at what...half the cost of Metal Pless??Maybe not half but I bet it's close.

Also, doesn't Daniels make a good quality loader plow too? I don't think anybody has mentioned them yet.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

This loader looks pretty big and the plow looks like it's fine on there.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

WIPensFan;2096521 said:


> This loader looks pretty big and the plow looks like it's fine on there.


We do love our 18ft Daniels the problem is there price point, your not far off a wing plow. On a skid I can some what see a Kage but I can buy a wing plow for pretty much the same price as a Kage so it's a no brainer. You have to remember we have a lot of heavy blade companies to choose from around this area. When Kage had there loader blade at our local landscape show everyone I know pretty much looked at it, laughed and said why? If you ever run a wing plow you will understand what I'm talking about.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

JD Dave;2096550 said:


> We do love our 18ft Daniels the problem is there price point, your not far off a wing plow. On a skid I can some what see a Kage but I can buy a wing plow for pretty much the same price as a Kage so it's a no brainer. You have to remember we have a lot of heavy blade companies to choose from around this area. When Kage had there loader blade at our local landscape show everyone I know pretty much looked at it, laughed and said why? If you ever run a wing plow you will understand what I'm talking about.


Well, I probably never will, but I will trust what you are saying. I will be interested to see what the OP chooses. Lots of choices and options to weed through.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

WIPensFan;2096510 said:


> Kage 12' weighs 2,375 lbs. Snow Wolf 12' weighs 2,217 lbs. That seems pretty heavy to me. Metal Pless weighs more because they open wider and have many more parts involved. I think there is something to be said for simplicity too, less parts to break and maintain. I do like the Metal Pless plows and think they are built well, though I've never seen one in person but have seen the other two. I couldn't see a weight on the Craig Plow.
> 
> I think you could say the box add ons for Kage would have to be used with care, but the plow themselves are not flimsy. Snow Wolf has no box add ons for their loader plows, and the plows look very well built.
> 
> ...


I have not gotten a quote on either of these plows yet. I will be interesting to see the difference in price.
I have looked at the Daniels in the past but not recently. When last I looked they had a winged scoop plow but the wings would not go back. Scoop, box, or straight. They did seem to be well built. 
I do see an advantage of the Kage system over a straight plow (see the video link in the next quoted reply for an example). My route is rural so it is spread out over several miles. Having to pick up the box, to carry to the next location, just to drop it again (could only use it on a few driveways right now), seems like it would not be worth the savings in time that the box would offer. The straight plow would be good enough for the roads most of the time but would be limited in the ability to wing back when required. It seems, for me anyway, that the winged plow would be best for what I have now, and still give me the versatility for whatever may come down the road in the future. I respect Dave's opinion but I would also have liked to have heard mnsnowfighter reply with more detail about the Kage that he is running on his 624J. Oddly enough nobody, who has stated that they have direct experience with the Kage Snowstorm (the models made for wheel loaders) has offered any real detailed feedback. It seems that are a lot of the skid steer units out there. BTW, what happened to the Kage Forum on this site?



WIPensFan;2096521 said:


> This loader looks pretty big and the plow looks like it's fine on there.


I see (2) things of note in this video. First is that the straight plow seems very in-efficient in the application. A containment plow would save this guy a ton of time. I also see the plow trip when he hits the small pile that he just pushed up a few seconds ago. I would expect more resistance to trip than that myself.
BTW, that loader is a bit bigger than mine. A 544J (what I have) is the same as a Volvo 70. The one on the video is a 110 so I would guess that it's a 4.5 or 5 yd loader.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

WIPensFan;2096510 said:


> Kage 12' weighs 2,375 lbs. Snow Wolf 12' weighs 2,217 lbs. That seems pretty heavy to me. Metal Pless weighs more because they open wider and have many more parts involved. I think there is something to be said for simplicity too, less parts to break and maintain. I do like the Metal Pless plows and think they are built well, though I've never seen one in person but have seen the other two. I couldn't see a weight on the Craig Plow.
> 
> I think you could say the box add ons for Kage would have to be used with care, but the plow themselves are not flimsy. Snow Wolf has no box add ons for their loader plows, and the plows look very well built.
> 
> ...


Haha very true I actually have no idea what I'm talking about but I think it is a valid point. If you use them and they work well then I'm probably 100% wrong but it just doesn't seem like the most innovative design. A lot cheaper than MP but pretty sure an HLA isn't much more. I got a quote on one last year for $6500 for a 6ft. That's somewhat in the range of what a snow wing of that size goes for I think.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

The kage is pretty much exactly the same price of a hla wing plow when I was getting quotes...

I don't see any advantage of one, someone here must be able to explain why they are better than a wing plow when they are the same price


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Just to clarify-you guys saying "wing plow" are talking about an expandable plow like a wideout or 810 correct?


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

beanz27;2096638 said:


> Just to clarify-you guys saying "wing plow" are talking about an expandable plow like a wideout or 810 correct?


Sort of the same idea but as far as I know the wings on a wideout only go like 90 degrees. When people say wing plow it means an angle plow on a tractor, wheel loader, skidsteer, or some other piece of heavy equipment with wings that travel 180 degrees on both sides so it's basically every plow there is in one. Pusher, angle blade, scoop, and reverse box plow. You're right though, it's basically just a big heavy duty wideout with a little more versatility. Hope that helps clear things up.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Our 6-11 Metal Pless was 1400 dollars more than an 8' Kage. That's a no brainer common sense decision. Far from double as has been suggested here several times.

I own HLA, Metal Pless, and Kage setups and the productivity of the hydraulic wing plows more than pays for the difference in upfront costs.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

John_DeereGreen;2096779 said:


> Our 6-11 Metal Pless was 1400 dollars more than an 8' Kage. That's a no brainer common sense decision. Far from double as has been suggested here several times.
> 
> I own HLA, Metal Pless, and Kage setups and the productivity of the hydraulic wing plows more than pays for the difference in upfront costs.


But what's the cost difference in the bigger ones? Say 12' Kage vs MP PRO1048-18


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

beanz27;2096638 said:


> Just to clarify-you guys saying "wing plow" are talking about an expandable plow like a wideout or 810 correct?


I'm pretty sure HLA is a sponsor on plow site, click on their ad and look at the plows and you'll then know what we're talking about


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## squarewheel (Oct 29, 2015)

this a cat 924 1048-20 metal pless with live edge that we use on a few gravel lots.

For the first few storms we leave the blade an inch off the ground and pack the snow into the gravel. Once it's frozen it's easy to plow.

You can see the snow rolling up the blade in the second picture.


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## A Man (Dec 24, 2007)

SNOWLORD;2096215 said:


> Live edge pushers work excellent on gravel lots
> And again no kage or snow wolf on loaders just to flimsy for my taste


I agree. I've had good luck on gravel lots with true live edge.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

WIPensFan;2096864 said:


> But what's the cost difference in the bigger ones? Say 12' Kage vs MP PRO1048-18


A 10-16 (which will still wax a 12 foot Kage in productivity) without Liveedge was around 15500 and a 12 foot wheel loader Kage was right at 14. This was fall of 2014.

The only reason anyone would buy a Kage or Snow Wolf has to be lack of knowledge of the increased production. A wing plow will give almost constantly at a minimum 25% boost, even with a poor operator, over a Kage.


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## G.Landscape (Oct 20, 2011)

We run 3 Kage plows all on skid steers ranging from 8-10'. I will start by saying that as mentioned above for this application where you are doing multiple driveways where you don't want to the box the process of dropping the box plow only to have to pick it up again will become a pain between the driveways. 

Our lots we use these plows on are a range from 0.25-6 acres of office and industrial type lots, meaning dropping the plow you can get it out of the way. If you have some forethought to the sites then it's really not like your leaving the plow all the way across the lot. Plowing technique would be to trim out the buildings, corners, back drag loading docks, etc first then grab the box and scoop this all away just like you would when operating a wing plow. To me if you do that work first your not taking the plow on/off like many people suggest and wasting time. 

Next comes down to simplicity and durability. Given these plows operate on the standard hydralic and nothing else for a skid steer this means no electrical or additional add on valves that have the potential to break down. For us the down time is very important and looking back on our oldest plows which is going into year 3 we probably have a total of 2hrs down time and a run to tsc for a bolt solved that problem. 

I agree that they are not for everyone, some people have their reservations about them but I wouldn't hesitate to buy another. Would I ever buy a wing plow.... Yea probably if I we had the lot requirements or machine property suited for the application.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

If a wheel loader Kage is 14k US I'm not even going to post what a 12-18 Horst cost me because no one will believe me. LOL


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

John_DeereGreen;2096922 said:


> A 10-16 (which will still wax a 12 foot Kage in productivity) without Liveedge was around 15500 and a 12 foot wheel loader Kage was right at 14. This was fall of 2014.
> 
> The only reason anyone would buy a Kage or Snow Wolf has to be lack of knowledge of the increased production. A wing plow will give almost constantly at a minimum 25% boost, even with a poor operator, over a Kage.


This is partially my fault but, I assumed we were talking about the"Liveedge" as far as pricing. I should have been specific on that point. As far as production numbers go, I would like to see some real world comparisons instead of "blow it away" or "wax" it or the like. Are we talking 10-15 min faster? Or are we talking 30-40 min faster for the same sized lot. I would agree that faster is faster and I'm all for that, as that is the objective in snow removal to me, as long as quality remains the same or better. I know with the Liveedge quality goes up, but so does the price point.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm saying standard cutting edge prices, as it's an extremely unfair comparison to include the Liveedge option on the MP. That's about 5k depending on plow size. You can't take a Kage or Snow Wolf with a regular metal cutting edge and compare it to a Liveedge. Obviously the MetalPless will be a lot more expensive. 

I said at a minimum 25% more productive, and in good lots where you can windrow more, closer to 50%. Keep in mind these production numbers are based on skids, but I don't see why it wouldn't be similar with loaders.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm glad to see where this thread is going. I am seeing increased participation and as a result i'm hearing from actual users of the systems being discussed. Thanks to all who are contributing.



WIPensFan;2096557 said:


> I will be interested to see what the OP chooses. Lots of choices and options to weed through.


Yes, there is a lot to consider and it will be interesting to see this through to the end. Especially considering that I have never seen any of these systems in person (with the exception of the Snowwolf skid steer straight plows-not seen any FastTach here), and most likely, won't before I decide to buy. I will share my experience here, wherever it leads.



John_DeereGreen;2096779 said:


> Our 6-11 Metal Pless was 1400 dollars more than an 8' Kage. That's a no brainer common sense decision. Far from double as has been suggested here several times.
> 
> I own HLA, Metal Pless, and Kage setups and the productivity of the hydraulic wing plows more than pays for the difference in upfront costs.


This makes you, possibly, a particularly valuable asset to this conversation. Please tell us what the application is for these plows and, if possible, could you please tell us about the durability, support, and pros & cons of each. I also wonder if you have a particular favorite, and of so, please provide your rational for that opinion.



squarewheel;2096882 said:


> this a cat 924 1048-20 metal pless with live edge that we use on a few gravel lots.
> 
> For the first few storms we leave the blade an inch off the ground and pack the snow into the gravel. Once it's frozen it's easy to plow.


This year has been an exception compared to the past several years n that the ground has frozen and so far, remains that way. In the past, and maybe sometime in the near future, we may see temps in the high 30s, or even in the 40s, so our roads may thaw with the thermal effects of direct sun on them. Especially if the temps don't go down to single digits at night. Then factor in that I am not currently plowing flat lots, but rather rural mountain roads and driveways (think lots of hills, transitions, curves, and crowned roads) and the concept of leaving 1" of snow will be difficult without some sort of control measure. Does your MP plow have some sort of feet to assist with this? If so, how effective are they if the gravel is soft (will they just dig in)?



squarewheel;2096882 said:


> can see the snow rolling up the blade in the second picture.


How does the snow roll when the plow is full? How does the loader handle that size plow? How deep of snow do you ask the plow to push?



JD Dave;2097010 said:


> If a wheel loader Kage is 14k US I'm not even going to post what a 12-18 Horst cost me because no one will believe me. LOL


I'll try my hardest.....send me a PM if you prefer.



WIPensFan;2097018 said:


> This is partially my fault but, I assumed we were talking about the"Liveedge" as far as pricing. I should have been specific on that point.


I'm not sure if it's fair to compare the Kage/Snowolf to a LiveEdge, in price, as the Kage does not offer similar system. The Kage/SW plows are much more similar in design, as far as the cutting edges are concerned, to the SoftEdge so I think it more "apples to apples" to compare the later.



WIPensFan;2097018 said:


> As far as production numbers go, I would like to see some real world comparisons instead of "blow it away" or "wax" it or the like. Are we talking 10-15 min faster? Or are we talking 30-40 min faster for the same sized lot. I would agree that faster is faster and I'm all for that, as that is the objective in snow removal to me, as long as quality remains the same or better. I know with the Liveedge quality goes up, but so does the price point.


I agree with this. I would much rather see the discussion stick with direct experiences and even better if we can talk hard numbers and facts. Obviously this is not always possible but I request that we try to be as specific as possible instead of generalizations.



John_DeereGreen;2096922 said:


> A 10-16 (which will still wax a 12 foot Kage in productivity) without Liveedge was around 15500 and a 12 foot wheel loader Kage was right at 14. This was fall of 2014.
> 
> The only reason anyone would buy a Kage or Snow Wolf has to be lack of knowledge of the increased production. A wing plow will give almost constantly at a minimum 25% boost, even with a poor operator, over a Kage.


While "waxing a Kage" is a generalization I am interpreting this to mean that he thinks the wing plow is faster and he supports that claim with the last sentence in his post (25% minimum production advantage).

These are all great posts guys. Lets keep the thread rolling.


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

According to what I was told the LiveEdge has carbide incorporate into the edges? longevity should be much greater??? You guys that are running LEdges how is the wear rates... I to am learning a few things from this thread!! Good info Guys


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

squarewheel;2096882 said:


> this a cat 924 1048-20 metal pless with live edge that we use on a few gravel lots.
> 
> For the first few storms we leave the blade an inch off the ground and pack the snow into the gravel. Once it's frozen it's easy to plow.
> 
> You can see the snow rolling up the blade in the second picture.


Is your plow a PlowMaxx or a MaxxPro?
How long have you had it?
How is it holding up for you?



John_DeereGreen;2097077 said:


> I'm saying standard cutting edge prices, as it's an extremely unfair comparison to include the Liveedge option on the MP. That's about 5k depending on plow size. You can't take a Kage or Snow Wolf with a regular metal cutting edge and compare it to a Liveedge. Obviously the MetalPless will be a lot more expensive.
> 
> I said at a minimum 25% more productive, and in good lots where you can windrow more, closer to 50%. Keep in mind these production numbers are based on skids, but I don't see why it wouldn't be similar with loaders.


I thought your experience with these systems was with wheel loaders. Do you run any of these on loaders or is your experience limited to skid steer size plows?
Again, what application are you using these plows for (lots, roads, driveways, etc.)?


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Hysert;2097087 said:


> According to what I was told the LiveEdge has carbide incorporate into the edges? longevity should be much greater??? You guys that are running LEdges how is the wear rates... I to am learning a few things from this thread!! Good info Guys


I was talking to Nick from MP at the show, he made it sound like the entire live edge is made out of carbide.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

OP, keep in mind that John_DeereGreen is a Metal Pless dealer and will have a biased opinion. Keep that in mind for all the dealers participating in this discussion.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

WIPensFan;2093262 said:


> You should look at Snow Wolf too. I know they make an 11' Ultra Plow now, but no Fasttach for it. Or 10' or 12' Alpha Plow. I think they are built really tough.





SNOWLORD;2094365 said:


> Definately not a kage or snow wolf on a wheel loader





SNOWLORD;2096215 said:


> Live edge pushers work excellent on gravel lots
> And again no kage or snow wolf on loaders just to flimsy for my taste





WIPensFan;2096510 said:


> Kage 12' weighs 2,375 lbs. Snow Wolf 12' weighs 2,217 lbs. That seems pretty heavy to me. Metal Pless weighs more because they open wider and have many more parts involved. I think there is something to be said for simplicity too, less parts to break and maintain. I do like the Metal Pless plows and think they are built well, though I've never seen one in person but have seen the other two. I couldn't see a weight on the Craig Plow.
> 
> I think you could say the box add ons for Kage would have to be used with care, but the plow themselves are not flimsy. Snow Wolf has no box add ons for their loader plows, and the plows look very well built.


I looked at the Snow Wolf site and it is not very informative. I can't ascertain how woell built it might be other than they claim 185# per foot as a durability feature. It looks like they don't offer a containment box for the Alpha series either. It looks like they do offer wings though, but not a quick attach system for said wings.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

WIPensFan;2097103 said:


> OP, keep in mind that John_DeereGreen is a Metal Pless dealer and will have a biased opinion. Keep that in mind for all the dealers participating in this discussion.


really?

since when?

I think Jarrett is running more sectionals then MP's this season.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

WIPensFan;2097103 said:


> OP, keep in mind that John_DeereGreen is a Metal Pless dealer and will have a biased opinion. Keep that in mind for all the dealers participating in this discussion.


We all, as humans, possibly have bias and preference. This is, after all, an internet forum so everything should be taken with a grain of salt and verified before taking it to the bank. While I don't mind hearing from dealers I would appreciate it if they would announce that they are a dealer and if the facts that they are claiming are from first-hand experience or if they are simply forwarding information from a brochure. 
I guess I'd like to know who is a dealer in this discussion (Neige has already announced that he is a sales rep for Metal Pless) and if your experience is from the selling of these attachments, direct experience with the use of them, or both.
No witch hunt here. I just want everyone to lay their cards on the table so we all can weight the opinions/contributions to this thread with fairness. I hope that this doesn't derail this thread.


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

Is there a reason you would want to put a plow on a loader? We install these bucket extensions that are custom made by a local welding shop to fit each bucket. There are no hydraulic attachments involved; gravity holds them on over the big hooks on the top of the buckets so they are easy to unhook when you want to stack.

http://www.plowsite.com/picture.php?pictureid=5902&albumid=997&dl=1317564995&thumb=1


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

Landcare - Mont;2097112 said:


> Is there a reason you would want to put a plow on a loader? We install these bucket extensions that are custom made by a local welding shop to fit each bucket. There are no hydraulic attachments involved; gravity holds them on over the big hooks on the top of the buckets so they are easy to unhook when you want to stack.
> 
> http://www.plowsite.com/picture.php?pictureid=5902&albumid=997&dl=1317564995&thumb=1


I think that there are advantages that a plow has over a bucket. A plow can windrow to one side or the other (I think the most efficient way to plow roads). The other is that they do not require the operator to dump the snow out at the end pf the push.


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

Hysert;2097087 said:


> According to what I was told the LiveEdge has carbide incorporate into the edges? longevity should be much greater??? You guys that are running LEdges how is the wear rates... I to am learning a few things from this thread!! Good info Guys


We're on our 3rd year with live edge box plow and there is little to no wear on edges it has ALOT of hours on it and it cleans as good today as it did brand new we have never laid a wrench to it for us there has been virtually no maintenance


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

SNOWLORD;2097120 said:


> We're on our 3rd year with live edge box plow and there is little to no wear on edges it has ALOT of hours on it and it cleans as good today as it did brand new we have never laid a wrench to it for us there has been virtually no maintenance


It's good to gear about the durability of your LiveEdge box plow. Do you have any winged plows? What are you pushing your plows with and what is the application?


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Hysert;2097087 said:


> According to what I was told the LiveEdge has carbide incorporate into the edges? longevity should be much greater??? You guys that are running LEdges how is the wear rates... I to am learning a few things from this thread!! Good info Guys


3 seasons on my live box and again, no bs the cutting edges look amazing still, I've replaced the cutting edges on any other equipment plow after 2 years and they were right shot so yes again, the live edge is a high upfront cost but will equate to long term savings... if you've never ran one it's hard to understand when you can look at other plows that are half the price but they truly are awesome plows


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

2nd season with two MetalPlessis box plows with Live Edge. Edges holding up just fine. Scrapes like new. We did build up the shoes on the box ends. I am very, very pleased with their performance.


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

DGODGR;2097130 said:


> It's good to gear about the durability of your LiveEdge box plow. Do you have any winged plows? What are you pushing your plows with and what is the application?


Yes we have hla wing plow 
We push our boxes with wheel loaders 
Application is large commercial lots


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

Triple L;2097133 said:


> 3 seasons on my live box and again, no bs the cutting edges look amazing still, I've replaced the cutting edges on any other equipment plow after 2 years and they were right shot so yes again, the live edge is a high upfront cost but will equate to long term savings... if you've never ran one it's hard to understand when you can look at other plows that are half the price but they truly are awesome plows


That's what I was hoping you guys were going to say!! I know from a machinest standpoint carbide is expensive to run but cuts like butter!! And last!! I'm really hopen to try one out


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

DGODGR;2097116 said:


> I think that there are advantages that a plow has over a bucket. A plow can windrow to one side or the other (I think the most efficient way to plow roads). The other is that they do not require the operator to dump the snow out at the end pf the push.


Ah. Our commercial/industrial sites pretty much all get stacked at the end of the yards and we use our wing trucks for plowing roads.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

DGODGR;2096503 said:


> Thanks for your reply Paul. I hope that you are happy with your decision to move on from the business and that whatever you are doing will bring you what you are looking for.
> I have come up with a couple more questions.
> 1) Please correct me if I'm wrong on this but the MP mold board looks like it is almost straight, not curved. I wonder how this will influence the "rolling" effect (the ability to roll the snow up, and over itself, vs. the snow simply sitting in a lump, to better fill the box/blade, and allow one to effectively push more snow) that is often talked about on the site?
> 
> ...


It only gets better the larger Metal Pless you get.


Hysert;2097087 said:


> According to what I was told the LiveEdge has carbide incorporate into the edges? longevity should be much greater??? You guys that are running LEdges how is the wear rates... I to am learning a few things from this thread!! Good info Guys


That is very true, the carbide company tells us you could get 900 hours of ware life before needing to change out for new edges.



NickSnow&Mow;2097099 said:


> I was talking to Nick from MP at the show, he made it sound like the entire live edge is made out of carbide.


That is correct



Landcare - Mont;2097112 said:


> Is there a reason you would want to put a plow on a loader? We install these bucket extensions that are custom made by a local welding shop to fit each bucket. There are no hydraulic attachments involved; gravity holds them on over the big hooks on the top of the buckets so they are easy to unhook when you want to stack.
> 
> http://www.plowsite.com/picture.php?pictureid=5902&albumid=997&dl=1317564995&thumb=1


Landcare I have seen many of these systems in Quebec but I find it extremely
unsafe because there is no trip edge.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

Thanks for taking the time to answer all of those questions Paul. I look forward to seeing the way you have designed the wing operation. Maybe while you are at it you could also show us the way that the "slip hitch" and oscillation work on the Metal Pless as well.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

DGODGR;2097603 said:


> Thanks for taking the time to answer all of those questions Paul. I look forward to seeing the way you have designed the wing operation. Maybe while you are at it you could also show us the way that the "slip hitch" and oscillation work on the Metal Pless as well.


Here are pics of the oscillation, I believe its 12 degrees.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Here are pics of the wing and hydraulics. Remember our wings are made from CHT 400 steel, and so are the hinges and rod. We also build wings plows with wings that are 10 feet wide, we really are the experts in this field. Check out this video of the largest hydraulic wing plow in the world 24 foot wide moldboard with 10 foot wings 5 feet tall. If you watch to the end you will actually see two of them.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

It seems as though we have lost some participation in the thread. Maybe you guys are getting some weather but we have had a bit of a break. I'd like to see things continue moving forward. I have looked back through the thread and some questions remain to be replied to. Hopefully the following will be addressed as time allows.



DGODGR;2097093 said:


> Is your plow a PlowMaxx or a MaxxPro?
> How long have you had it?
> How is it holding up for you?


This was asked of Squarewheels and he replied: 
"Thank you.

This is the second year on this blade.

It is a maxxpro. 10'48"-20'.
Wings are 4' high and 5' long. weights 4500 lbs.

It has live edge. "
I know it's a relatively new plow but I would still like to hear about the reliability of it.



DGODGR;2097093 said:


> I thought your experience with these systems was with wheel loaders. Do you run any of these on loaders or is your experience limited to skid steer size plows?
> Again, what application are you using these plows for (lots, roads, driveways, etc.)?


I asked this of John DeereGreen and he hasn't replied yet. I would hope that he would offer his response.



1olddogtwo;2097106 said:


> really?
> 
> since when?
> 
> I think Jarrett is running more sectionals then MP's this season.


John DeereGreen has admitted that he is a Metal Pless dealer in another thread. I don't condemn him, or his opinion for it. It sounds to me like he is a plow contractor who also sells the plows, or something similar. Maybe he can shed some light on this and, again, maybe offer his response to the above.
Who is Jarret? Maybe he can contribute to this thread.



Triple L;2097133 said:


> 3 seasons on my live box and again, no bs the cutting edges look amazing still, I've replaced the cutting edges on any other equipment plow after 2 years and they were right shot so yes again, the live edge is a high upfront cost but will equate to long term savings... if you've never ran one it's hard to understand when you can look at other plows that are half the price but they truly are awesome plows





Herm Witte;2097135 said:


> 2nd season with two MetalPlessis box plows with Live Edge. Edges holding up just fine. Scrapes like new. We did build up the shoes on the box ends. I am very, very pleased with their performance.


That's great to hear guys. Maybe you have already answered this , I didn't see it when I looked back, but could you please say if you have any wing plows, what you are pushing your MP box, and/or wing plows, with and what the application is?



Neige;2098253 said:


> Here are pics of the wing and hydraulics. Remember our wings are made from CHT 400 steel, and so are the hinges and rod. We also build wings plows with wings that are 10 feet wide, we really are the experts in this field. Check out this video of the largest hydraulic wing plow in the world 24 foot wide moldboard with 10 foot wings 5 feet tall. If you watch to the end you will actually see two of them.


Thanks for getting back to us with the pictures Paul. Which plow is in the pictures? It looks like it might actually be (2) different plows. While the picture shows us the hinges and feet of the wing very well the hydraulics are obscured by the guards. 
Cool video. Those are definitely some big wings on that plow! You have mentioned CHT 400 steel wings several times now. Can you please elaborate on what that is and how it is beneficial to this application?
Lastly, my question about support has still not been addressed. As you may be aware I am not in an area that has a lot of specialized plows like on the East Coast or Canada. I am in a town of only 15K population, am >6 hrs from Denver, and 3 hrs from Albuquerque, so I can't run down to the local MP, HLA, Kage, etc., dealer to get parts if I need them. I would imagine that you have many customers/potential customers who are in a similar situation. What type of support is available? Do you have a parts warehouse? Maybe one in the US? What is the percentage of parts that can be filled (to the US) in 24hrs?.....48 hrs?...a week?
This may not be a huge issue but as we all know sh?t happens, and often at inopportune times. We have heard from several users of the LiveEdge box plows and they are reporting good reliability. I've not heard from but one MAXXPRO user and they have not offered a any comment on durability. The issue of complexity/reliability of wing plows has been raised. I must admit that it is relatively complex compared to a straight plow. The electric over hydraulic system has been in use for a long time (just look at truck plows) but with, I would assume, less valving (maybe Paul could comment on this too?) and probably a much larger parts supply network. Again, I have not even seen, in person, any of the plows that are still being discussed in this thread. Given all of these considerations I would hope that the questions would seem reasonable and not perceived as just being negative or a pain in anybody's behind.
I still wish to convey gratitude to all those who have replied and would hope to hear back on all the questions above.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

I have a 10-16 live edge as well on a 110hp tractor... and have owned hla wing plows, machinability wing plows, and metal pless, that being said hla is OK, machinability is middle ground and owning 2 live edge metal pless plows one box and 1 wing plow they are most certainly the best, but also have the highest price point by a significant margin... that being said I do plow on trading in my other plow for yet another metal pless this coming season so that in itself says it all


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

Triple L;2099325 said:


> I have a 10-16 live edge as well on a 110hp tractor... and have owned hla wing plows, machinability wing plows, and metal pless, that being said hla is OK, machinability is middle ground and owning 2 live edge metal pless plows one box and 1 wing plow they are most certainly the best, but also have the highest price point by a significant margin... that being said I do plow on trading in my other plow for yet another metal pless this coming season so that in itself says it all


Thanks for the feedback Triple. That says a lot. Can you offer any feedback on whether, or not, there is something that has needed repair on your MP plow? How long have you had it?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Let me preface with an apology. I thought this posted a couple days back and apparently it didn't.

Yes, I am a Metal Pless dealer, who is also an end user of the product.



1olddogtwo;2097106 said:


> really?
> 
> since when?
> 
> I think Jarrett is running more sectionals then MP's this season.


Correct. We have 3 HD Sectionals and 3 LD Sectionals as well.

I really like the tire saver on the HLA, it's nice to not have to worry as much about a newer operator hitting tires with the wings. Also, the rotary actuators provide a relief mechanism if you catch something in reverse, where MP is just forward. I dislike the insanely high parts prices along with the quality of paint and how the actuators have been for us holding up.

I don't really have any pluses to the Kage, other than they from my experience have outstanding customer service. If you don't plan, you drive in circles to get your box. I won't have another one because of the price difference vs productivity of a wing plow.

I like the simplicity of Metal Pless's wing pivot, and the wing shoe spring system. Something I believe they are strongly lacking on is customer service at the factory level. I had an issue with a blade that went to a customer that took some "persuading" to get them to send a harness that wasn't sent with the plow.

All of my experience, minus Arctic Sectionals is on skid steers, however I don't believe that it makes that much difference. I would guess with the loader experience I have that the production difference would increase further with a larger prime mover.

Finally, I'm not here to cheerlead any certain product or company. I'm a Metal Pless dealer because there aren't any close to me and I wanted to try one to see what the hype is about, and sold a couple others to people in the area after I told them about them. I buy what suits the particular application the best and what makes me the most money with the lowest investment. Hence the reason we use a good number of Arctic Sectionals. They're cheap(er) used and they work. Not without issues, but they work.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

John_DeereGreen;2099388 said:


> Let me preface with an apology. I thought this posted a couple days back and apparently it didn't.
> 
> Yes, I am a Metal Pless dealer, who is also an end user of the product.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for re-joining the discussion (Jarred ?).....and thank you for your candor. Have you noticed any difference in the customer service since Paul has come on board? Can you provide any feedback regarding the availability of parts and the reliability of the MP wing plows? Based on what you have posted thus far I would assume that you are primarily using these plows on commercial lots. Is that correct?


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## squarewheel (Oct 29, 2015)

We have been busy with snow and repairs this week.

Our 1048-20 Maxx Pro with live edge on a Cat 924 has not required anything other than grease in two seasons.

Our 1042-17 with live edge on a Cat 910 has not required anything other than grease in two seasons. It looks and performs like brand new. There was a wiring issue during our first outing with the connection to the cat but we just replaced the fancy cat connector with a flat 4 way trailer plug.

We have started installing rubber mats that hang down to protect the hoses and cylinders from road spray that gets flicked off the tires. The salty spray just eats the paint on the cylinders.

Our 836-16 live edge on a Cat 908 is 3 seasons old. We have had one blown wing cylinder on this one. You will see in the pictures below that the carbide cutting edge still looks great. One of the corners of a live edge section has bent about a half inch. Still works fine. Somebody must have found a really solid manhole one night. You can also see that of the four - 3/8" sections on the wing cutting edge that the first section is wearing about 1/8" per year.

Our 836-16 soft drive on a Cat 908 is 4 seasons old. We have had two blown wing cylinders on this one and several hoses in the last year or so.
We replaced the cutting edges last season and welded Hardox 600 to the bottom of the wings to replace the worn cutting edge. This blade is takes more of a beating because it does not have the springs or individual trip sections of the live edge to protect it.

Generally we put about 500 snow hours on each machine each winter.

Here is a picture of the carbide insert in the cutting edge. This edge is on its 3rd season and still looks great.


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## squarewheel (Oct 29, 2015)

One of the live edge sections is slightly bent on this 836-16. It is 3 seasons old. It still cleans good.


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## squarewheel (Oct 29, 2015)

This is a side shot of the carbide insert. It still has lots of wear left.


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## squarewheel (Oct 29, 2015)

There are 4 - 3/8" wear plates on the wing cutting edge. In 3 seasons we have worn off almost one -3/8" section. That's only 1\8" wear per season.


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## squarewheel (Oct 29, 2015)

Metal Pless has been good at getting us parts when they are needed. Quick call to our rep and they arrive by courier in a day or two.
He stops in often to have a look at the blades and follows up quickly if we have an issue.

We find it beneficial to stock at least one wing cylinder and spare hoses in our shop because you know this stuff only breaks at 4 am in the middle of big storm.

In the past we have used:
3 HLA blades of various sizes. 
A 6'-10' Grattex expanding pusher / puller for several seasons. 
Still have some fisher stainless xblades on various trucks and tractors.
Used Western blades for awhile too
8' 6" snow buckets with wings
Bobcat heavy Duty snow blade with wings
a 10' artic sectional for one storm


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

squarewheel;2099766 said:


> Metal Pless has been good at getting us parts when they are needed. Quick call to our rep and they arrive by courier in a day or two.
> He stops in often to have a look at the blades and follows up quickly if we have an issue.
> 
> We find it beneficial to stock at least one wing cylinder and spare hoses in our shop because you know this stuff only breaks at 4 am in the middle of big storm.
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to reply (probably took a while to post all those pictures). This is valuable insight into the MP plows. I did a little bit of research on CHT400 (developed by a Canadian company that is now reportedly defunct) and the Endura plate (what comes up when you search-by Titus Steel in CAN) is supposed to outlast AR500 by a substantial time in abrasive applications, have more flex characteristics, and not require pre-heating to weld (up to 1" thick). I would like to hear how your AR600 lasts compared to what was OEM (I presume CHT400). Please keep us informed. 
I am happy to hear that you are having good support from MP (and thanks for suggesting specific spares to have on hand). What you describe would work for me. I would assume that you are in Canada. Could you please tell us where you are (maybe the city or province) and maybe who your rep (or dealer if that's more accurate) is. I would also assume, but would like to get confirmation, that the cylinders can be re-built by most any hydraulic shop. 
I am also curious about the performance of your loader behind the 1048-20. That loader is only marginally smaller than my 544j (some would argue that they are even the same size) so you can provide almost apples to apples information. In the pictures that you previously posted it looks like you have a fairly low trigger point (+/-3"?). I have had to plow events that are 10"-12" (on grades too) and I wonder if you have any experience using that plow, with the 924 loader, to push in deeper accumulations. Will the loader effectively windrow that much snow? What about in box configuration?

Thanks again.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

The first picture is of the Maxxpro. I know that the cylinders are partially covered but I think you get a good understanding how they work. If you look closely to the front of the side wing you will notice that there is a brick pushing up the side cutting edge. This is to demonstrate the cutting edges on the wings float. There is also a brick jammed under a trip spring on the main mouldboard to show the soft drive trip mechanism. The reason Metal Pless uses CHT 400, which can also be referred to as Hardox 400 or AR 400 is the strength and ware life of this kind of steel. The wings on the Maxx are made from 3/4 inch of this kind of steel. To get the equivalent of this strength in regular steel that all other plow manufacturers use it would be 3 inches thick. We also use CHT 400 in our hinges as well as in parts of of our trip system. So when you look at our hinges imagine them 4 times bigger in regular steel. There is also the added benefit that CHT400 can flex before bending a great plus for plows. If you go LiveEdge the cutting edges are also made from CHT 400. I just want to touch on Carbide for a minute. It is a very expensive item to add to a plow. The benefits are that that it gives you around 900 hours of ware life before needing to change them out. I hear lots of people saying they are changing out their cutting edges at 100 hrs. Now I don't want to start an argument that some of you get 200 hrs or more, I am sure you do. I want to stick to averages and will add another 50 hrs for the standard cutting edge. That would mean you need to change out your cutting edges 6 times before you change out the carbide. That means your mechanic needs to spend time on six occasions changing out cutting edges along with what ever hardware including nuts and bolts to get the job done. what is that worth? For those of you getting 100 hrs ware life you get the picture. Our larger dealers are carrying parts in inventory. Chappell tractor in the east and Lano equipment in the Midwest. I also have Alpine Smith in the west carrying spare parts along with Ebling in Michigan. Metal Pless can also overnight parts when needed. When I ran my snow business we always kept some parts in stock, just in case we needed something in the middle of the night. We actually rented a hose making machine during the winter months, because everything we ran was hydraulically controlled. I just want to mention one other thing, our biggest clientele using our plows are in Quebec, and there are very few in Quebec that are on this forum. Ontario is catching up very quickly, but even there it's only been the last six years. The US market is just opening up to our product line. I can certainly get you references, but most will only be 1 to 3 years of use. I was asked the question about electric valves, if I had my way I would always go with just plain hydraulics. I can fix hydraulics and hydraulic valves seem to last forever. That being said when we get into loaders and skid steers this is no longer an option. With the productivity of a hydraulic wing plow I could never go back and plow with a straight blade, or even a fixed wing plow.
In Quebec pusher boxes for snow represents 5% of the market, in the US it represents 95%. So I am willing to work with electric valves, to get that increase in productivity.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

John_DeereGreen;2099388 said:


> Let me preface with an apology. I thought this posted a couple days back and apparently it didn't.
> 
> Yes, I am a Metal Pless dealer, who is also an end user of the product.
> 
> ...


I just want to make one clarification, the Metal Pless plows have pressure relief in both directions on our wings. No matter if you are pushing or pulling back the relief valve will kick in protecting your wings. We also have a relieve valve on our angle cylinders giving you added protection.
Metal Pless stands behind it's products, and I stand behind Metal Pless. It's not perfect but we are improving every day. Even I have my bad days, and have goofed in the past. You can always call me 514-608-4675 any time, or email me [email protected], and I will try my best to help you out.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Oh and the second picture is that of an Agrimaxx HD.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Neige;2099962 said:


> I just want to make one clarification, the Metal Pless plows have pressure relief in both directions on our wings. No matter if you are pushing or pulling back the relief valve will kick in protecting your wings. We also have a relieve valve on our angle cylinders giving you added protection.
> Metal Pless stands behind it's products, and I stand behind Metal Pless. It's not perfect but we are improving every day. Even I have my bad days, and have goofed in the past. You can always call me 514-608-4675 any time, or email me [email protected], and I will try my best to help you out.


Thank you for that, mine must be set tighter than I would expect, because I caught a curb backing up with it last week, and the blade angled, but the wing did not give at all.

Paul is one of the people from Metal Pless that gets a 5 star award from me, he's great to work with.

Good luck in your decision. And one thing is for sure, if it's MP, spend the money on the Liveedge option.


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## squarewheel (Oct 29, 2015)

Here are the rubber mats that we use to protect the hydraulics.

Like Paul mentioned above, we also prefer to avoid extra electric stuff on plows when possible. Just one less thing to go wrong. Both of our 8-16 blades on the 908's are totally hydraulic. Both wings open and close at the same time. This set up is very fast, eliminates the possibility of electrical failure and because they only use standard skid steer quick connect couplers, the blades can be easily moved to another machine if a machine is down. This is a great set up for smaller loaders and skid steers where you are doing a lot of pulling and pushing but not much winging.

Both our 910 and 924 do have the electrical connections because those blades angle as well as have wings that move. The 924 blew one fuse hooking up at the first hook up of last season so we carry a few spares in the loader. Have not blown one since of course.

We were working on both 8-16 blades today and had a look at the hardox 600 on that we welded on the wings last winter. Surprising, it was almost gone. 1/2" in one season. I was expecting a little more. It was only 2" wide so I think I'll weld more on this summer and go a bit wider. We had it lying around the shop (off a road grader) and decided to try it.


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## squarewheel (Oct 29, 2015)

We have had a few of the older wing cylinders break. The new ones they sent us are much better. We replaced this one today. Handy to have one sitting on the shelf in the shop. Our local hydraulic shop said they could repair it but we decided to get the new version from metal pless instead.






Have a look at this video. While slightly larger than our loader, we get similar results. The gentleman who drives our 924 routinely reports pushing piles twice the height of the blade. 8-9 feet tall. We plow several subdivisions where no snow can be left on the streets or winged along the curbs. It all gets pushed over a half mile to a snow depot. We usually get 3-4 storms a year in the 12" range and the loader will handle as much snow as you can stuff into that 10-20 box.

When winging really deep snow, instead of angling the whole 20', we run the leading wing straight ahead, fully angle the blade and then leave the trailing wing only slightly angled out or straight back. This reduces the width to 9' or so and makes it easy to clear one lane of the roadway.


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## squarewheel (Oct 29, 2015)

Here is the new one. Looks like a better design.


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

Sorry for letting this thread cool off for so long. I have had to look at this from a very business like perspective and I have finally reached a conclusion. I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread as you have all helped me make the decision. Making this type of decision can be tough when one is in such a small community that doesn't see a lot of the more "cutting edge" tools that are available out there. 
I will start by saying that the MP 1048-20 is the attachment that I would like to buy. I haven't seen it yet but based on my research, it would be the best plow I could get for the application. That being said, I simply can not justify the cost of that attachment. The amount of revenue that I get from snow removal just doesn't support the capital outlay. This is unfortunate because I really wanted to try that plow. I think it would have worked very well for me. Regardless, I think that I will be best served by looking for a used 12' truck plow (like what is found on DOT trucks) and modify it for my application (weld quick coupler blanks on it, etc.). I would think that I could get this done for $3 to $4k (US). Unfortunately, every time I use it I will be thinking about how much faster, and how much of a better job, the MP hydraulic wing plow would do. Such is life.
I will admit that there were some discussions via PM that helped me reach my decision. Sorry that those conversations were not shared with all of you but that is just how it had to be. Thanks squarewheels and Neige.
I want to make it clear that Paul was extremely helpful to me. He has proven to me, again, that he is a man of integrity. Unlike some salesmen, he is not simply out there to sell plows. He will only recommend that you buy if it makes sense for you and he will help you figure it out if you want him to. BTW, based on the details of my particular situation, he recommended that I do NOT buy a wing plow at this time. Thanks Paul. I hope that someday we can do business together.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

DGODGR;2106605 said:


> Sorry for letting this thread cool off for so long. I have had to look at this from a very business like perspective and I have finally reached a conclusion. I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread as you have all helped me make the decision. Making this type of decision can be tough when one is in such a small community that doesn't see a lot of the more "cutting edge" tools that are available out there.
> I will start by saying that the MP 1048-20 is the attachment that I would like to buy. I haven't seen it yet but based on my research, it would be the best plow I could get for the application. That being said, I simply can not justify the cost of that attachment. The amount of revenue that I get from snow removal just doesn't support the capital outlay. This is unfortunate because I really wanted to try that plow. I think it would have worked very well for me. Regardless, I think that I will be best served by looking for a used 12' truck plow (like what is found on DOT trucks) and modify it for my application (weld quick coupler blanks on it, etc.). I would think that I could get this done for $3 to $4k (US). Unfortunately, every time I use it I will be thinking about how much faster, and how much of a better job, the MP hydraulic wing plow would do. Such is life.
> I will admit that there were some discussions via PM that helped me reach my decision. Sorry that those conversations were not shared with all of you but that is just how it had to be. Thanks squarewheels and Neige.
> I want to make it clear that Paul was extremely helpful to me. He has proven to me, again, that he is a man of integrity. Unlike some salesmen, he is not simply out there to sell plows. He will only recommend that you buy if it makes sense for you and he will help you figure it out if you want him to. BTW, based on the details of my particular situation, he recommended that I do NOT buy a wing plow at this time. Thanks Paul. I hope that someday we can do business together.


:laughing:...I must be a man of integrity too, because I told you that on the first page.

I'm tellin ya, 12' SnowWolf Alpha plow. No F'ing around welding and cobbling stuff together. As simple as it gets. At least give them a call and see if any dealers around have a used unit(save some money) or a new one you could look at.

Free shipping from Ebay...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SnowWolf-Alpha-12ft-snow-plow-FREE-SHIPPING-/201472800690


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