# Overall Bidding



## Dakilla364 (Oct 6, 2020)

Just checking with you guys im not new to the industry but still have some bidding questions, this is my 5th season doing snow 2nd doing commercial and im still not exactly sure what price point im at, im in central michigan in the metro detroit area and need someone to tell me if im cheap, high, or right on the ball so here goes nothing.

My pricing for snow is as follows: 
Between $80-120 for an acre lot for just plowing, depending on difficulty and to be frank, how cheap the person running the business comes across, im trying to build my business without sinking it, while still being able to actually get jobs while competing with the big guys.

i price salt at approx 1 ton/acre, which is just about a yard per acre (correct me if im wrong) a yard of salt (bulk) would cost me $130 mid season on a rough season so im at about $220-$280 for a 1 acre lot. 

Most sidewalks are included in the price on commercial lots, but on resi i only do the walk to the front door and im at 35 per push but even try to price resi on seasonal rates if i can, but cant compete with the big guys (or the little ones) when theyre charging $380 for an entire season on a city driveway. 

even with these prices i try to shave some off sometimes to get the job, but even then am still having trouble. heres a real life bid example for you. i did not get this job as they cheaped out on going for another hotel properties maintenance man with a plow truck the company bought, so this is how i bid it and the prices i gave them.

the lot measures in at just over an acre (roughly 48000 sq ft) their 12 month total for snow plowing only was $1,425 salt was at $13,500. im pretty sure i quoted it out at 17 total events for a season, but could be wrong. either way. what would you charge? the lots address is 6910 Whitmore lake road, Brighton MI 48116. take a look please any advice helps as im small, dont have a name for myself yet and am the owner/operator.

no, i do not have insurance for snow yet, but have a quote waiting from my insurance company for a 1/2m policy. just have to make the first payment of $190 a month to get it started.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

You’ve been doing snow for five years and haven’t had Insurnace?
Yikes! 
1/2m policy won’t do much in the commercial world, figure 600-1100 lbs of salt per acre, with. 800ish being an avg. or .018 lbs per sq ft.

17 events is low, since we had at least 24 salting events last season not including spot salting. 

you should be timing yourself on every lot you plow/ salt/ shovel walks this works for
Billing/ accountability, along with CQI
You should also be recording about how mulch salt you’re using, if using bags, this number should be spot on. Record results, 

here’s an example.


this lot is a seasonal contract, it takes about 10-15 minutes to salt it’s just under 1/2 an acre of pavement, sidewalks along with handicap areas get deicer.

It breaks down to about 20-30 cents per pound spread


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a million g.l. policy


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

If its a commercial site are you allowing for monitoring? Does your truck only start when it snows?


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## Dakilla364 (Oct 6, 2020)

alright so im gonna try and address everyone here, boss- alright if a 1/2m policy wont get me far in the commercial world, what should i look for? as far as 20-30 cents per pound applied, ive heard of some of the games some of the large companies pull, such as locking customers in on a contract then pay per lb applied, then charge the hell out of them because they essentially oversalt, thats something im trying to avoid alltogether and in turn charge the customer less. most of the people i have bid this season have brought that up as an issue with last year (as well as providers overbooking) again something im trying to avoid thus just giving them the price cold turkey whether its a loss season for me due to it or not. should i add an overage charge to my estimates, and if so, how do i sell it to the customer?

diesel- what is a million g.1. policy?

markus- most of these commercial properties are not a 'zero tolerance' lot and are instead a 2 inch trigger for pushing, and salting if there is any less, as its only me i only currently have 2 bids in for zero tolerance and theyre both for restaurant properties and a TSC. and i priced accordingly (but i could be a joke here) TSC is a 1.7 acre lot with most of it being road technically, which yes will need salt but much less than the lot/employee area. i quoted this lot at $1275 each month for 6 months. and im still not sure if im the 'low bidder' or not. but if i dont have work i dont have a business so something over nothing is best.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Can’t help with salt, sorry
Also, I’m in a different part of the country, so be careful trying to use my numbers as an apples to apples comparison.

as far as plowing, to me your prices seem low. I only plow commercial and most of my lots (roughly 20-25) are about .5 to 1.5 acres. I looked at about 10 of my properties and figured out my price per square foot so I could get a price per acre. My PPA average on those 10 properties is about $160.

It can be tempting in the early stages to drop prices to secure work. Only you as the business owner can decide if your willing to do this or not but I highly recommend that you figure out the price you need to be profitable and make it worth your time to own the equipment, insure it, do the actual work associated with clearing lots, be pinned down in town unable to leave for months at a time, and generally live in a state of mild anxiety all winter(maybe that’s just me), and then stick to it. It’s better for you and better for the industry.

last note, and this will seem contradictory to what I’ve said so far. I know I said your prices seemed low, but truthfully you should have no problem turning a profit at $120 or even $90, assuming you don’t have large equipment costs or other crippling overhead, so if that’s what you need to charge to get a little income rolling in then so be it. I just feel like it’s hard to do this work and you should be getting a healthy compensation for it.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

We have a million dollar policy gl, and then an umbrella over that which is another million.
You really need to get insurance before you start bidding properties, and that also includes worker's compensation and commercial auto.
Sometimes, you can opt out of having W/c by signing a waiver, but properties like tsc are going to want to see the other stuff.

you could consider subbing for someone.

I'm sure @TheXpress2002 along with @Luther would love to meet you, and they probably have properties in Brighton/ Ann Arbor.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Since when is Whitemore Lake central Michigan? 

Hard to say, $80/acre seems low (for me) but I know "competitors" are charging that little. I think you're a bit high on salt, especially a ton/acre.

Just bid a private road and was not awarded it. They stayed with the current contractor who was high bid out of 5. Very nice houses so I tried to be a bit more competitive. Pretty much every other time I've bid private roads for this management company I've been high bid. 

Prices are all over the place because most lawn and snow jockeys are not business people, so they really don't know what they should be charging. 

On the flip side, we just picked up 2 accounts from the "largest landscaper in GR" because their quality...well, it's lacking. And we were higher than them. 

I hate bidding jobs, pricing is so messed up around here it's ridiculous. $35 for a city driveway one time is unheard of. Never happen.


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

If we could get $380+ for city drives, that's all I'd be doing! Just had a flyer dropped off in our neighborhood for $185 for a 2 car drive. I won't get out of bed for that.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Drock78 said:


> If we could get $380+ for city drives, that's all I'd be doing! Just had a flyer dropped off in our neighborhood for $185 for a 2 car drive. I won't get out of bed for that.


Lol

@Landgreen was just asking me about GR pricing.

I didn't think anyone was under $200 anymore.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Drock78 said:


> Just had a flyer dropped off in our neighborhood for $185 for a 2 car drive. I won't get out of bed for that.


So you are saying you hired that guy to do yours...?


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

cwren2472 said:


> So you are saying you hired that guy to do yours...?


Lol. No, I'll do my own. Saying that I wouldn't get out of bed to go out and plow drives for their prices.


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Lol
> 
> @Landgreen was just asking me about GR pricing.
> 
> I didn't think anyone was under $200 anymore.


Most on the NE side are $225-$250.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Fantasy island Prices are a wee bit higher than that, Whitmore lake is a pretty nice area as is Brighton, you should be able to get at least 300 on most drives


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Drock78 said:


> Most on the NE side are $225-$250.


AJs lawn care charges around that price for 0 pushes


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Drock78 said:


> If we could get $380+ for city drives, that's all I'd be doing! Just had a flyer dropped off in our neighborhood for $185 for a 2 car drive. I won't get out of bed for that.


Assuming you guys get around 22 events/winter that's $8.41 per time for $185 seasonal. Basically suicidal business plan or their equipment hasn't been upgraded. Is this one of their operators?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I figure 25 but we tend to overservice.


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## Dakilla364 (Oct 6, 2020)

Alright. That’s what I wanted to know, so I’m low, but still am not doing resi under $400 for a season. As for insurance, a 1m 2m aggregate policy should be sufficient for snow? Yes? No? My plow is covered in that and I’m unsure of a commercial vehicle policy for my truck but I’ve been told a variety of things by insurers such as If I use my truck for 50% or less commercial use (as I’m a sole proprietor/ owner operator w/c isn’t something I’m worried about even in the slightest) I don’t need commercial vehicle insurance. But I could be wrong, and if needed I’ll get it prior to the first check coming out. (That’s what I’ve been told is the policy for these businesses) I’m not looking to do this the wrong way/illegally and am trying to become legit myself, that’s part of the reason I’m here asking questions. There’s money in snow for sure. But it seems like most of these businesses are less worried about insurance than they are about the lowest bidder, and obviously again, some business is better than nothing. I’ve done driveways and honestly I hated it. That’s why I’m trying to go strictly commercial, and I’m also not interested in subbing unless a sub is willing to pay a monthly wage/rate instead of hourly because that’s shotty at best and no one is willing to do that.


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## Dakilla364 (Oct 6, 2020)

Also to give you a feel for equipment I’m working with, I own an 04 GMC Sierra with a western ultra mount 7.7 straight, and a snowed pivot pro 1075.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

If you get paid by the hr. You may not be a subb.

Don’t be afraid of charging a bit more
Like $500-700 a season
Break it up to two payments.
This way they make 2 small payments.
For some reason it isn’t such a burden to pay $250- -300 at a time.

Sell it as unlimited plowing from nov 1st to
April 1st...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Landgreen said:


> Assuming you guys get around 22 events/winter that's $8.41 per time for $185 seasonal. Basically suicidal business plan or their equipment hasn't been upgraded. Is this one of their operators?
> 
> View attachment 207078


Had to do a double take...If that was a grader blade on the back of that tractor I wouldve thought it was a picture of my dad doing the driveway...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Dakilla364 said:


> Alright. That's what I wanted to know, so I'm low, but still am not doing resi under $400 for a season. As for insurance, a 1m 2m aggregate policy should be sufficient for snow? Yes? No? My plow is covered in that and I'm unsure of a commercial vehicle policy for my truck but I've been told a variety of things by insurers such as If I use my truck for 50% or less commercial use (as I'm a sole proprietor/ owner operator w/c isn't something I'm worried about even in the slightest) I don't need commercial vehicle insurance. But I could be wrong, and if needed I'll get it prior to the first check coming out. (That's what I've been told is the policy for these businesses) I'm not looking to do this the wrong way/illegally and am trying to become legit myself, that's part of the reason I'm here asking questions. There's money in snow for sure. But it seems like most of these businesses are less worried about insurance than they are about the lowest bidder, and obviously again, some business is better than nothing. I've done driveways and honestly I hated it. That's why I'm trying to go strictly commercial, and I'm also not interested in subbing unless a sub is willing to pay a monthly wage/rate instead of hourly because that's shotty at best and no one is willing to do that.


You're not going to have 25 pushes in Gretchen Whitmore lake. 
You're gonna have like 9 on your commercials and 4-5 on your resis


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## Dakilla364 (Oct 6, 2020)

Boss, if I quote my jobs out like that I’ll be out of business before I can blink, on top of which I serviced 4-5 times last season, 4-5 the season before and 10-12 the season before that, I have a 2 inch trigger for all properties regardless unless they’re a zero tolerance lot. I’ve heard of guys in my area quoting 20 pushes 40 Salts, and guys who salted 30 some times last season alone. Which was light. And if what your saying is true, then how many should I quote for at a seasonal rate?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Averages averages and more averages, that’s all seasonal is, it’s based on averages


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## Dakilla364 (Oct 6, 2020)

So then what’s the average in our area. And how do I find it?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Figure it out on your own, go for the last three years, if you have a year that’s an anomaly, perhaps you got five years.

Pretty sure DTW is 42”

willow run is a tad higher I think

edit: not just based on snowfall
Avg pushes and salting as well,


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