# Brickman & Target Lot



## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

Anyone else on here plow for as a sub for Brickman at a Target store? I'm a small operation and one of their reps just contacted me with a rush request to bid on a local Target at a seasonal rate. He tells me to use NOAA 30 year average to calculate my costs. I told him forget that, it has snowed more frequently the last 5 years probably due to global warming so that 30 year average is skewed. 

Does anyone who does commercial work in Chicago area know how many times they went out last season? It seemed like February we were out every day with nuisance snows salting. These guys want us little guys to take a huge risk and offer a low flat rate for the season. How do you guys even begin to calculate the costs with so many variables?

I'd love to get into larger commercial work but it could put me out of business in a hurry if it snows more than what you calculate and they are slow or no-payers. How good is Brickman about paying?


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

Subscribing to this one


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

snow4me;1306745 said:


> Anyone else on here plow for as a sub for Brickman at a Target store? I'm a small operation and one of their reps just contacted me with a rush request to bid on a local Target at a seasonal rate. He tells me to use NOAA 30 year average to calculate my costs. I told him forget that, it has snowed more frequently the last 5 years probably due to global warming so that 30 year average is skewed.
> 
> Does anyone who does commercial work in Chicago area know how many times they went out last season? It seemed like February we were out every day with nuisance snows salting. These guys want us little guys to take a huge risk and offer a low flat rate for the season. How do you guys even begin to calculate the costs with so many variables?
> 
> I'd love to get into larger commercial work but it could put me out of business in a hurry if it snows more than what you calculate and they are slow or no-payers. How good is Brickman about paying?


It's always a rush but if you are dumb enough to believe in global warming then you probably can't come up with a seasonal price either.

A seasonal price isn't a risk. It is one of the few ways to fix your variables.


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

cretebaby;1306799 said:


> It's always a rush but if you are dumb enough to believe in global warming then you probably can't come up with a seasonal price either.
> 
> A seasonal price isn't a risk. It is one of the few ways to fix your variables.


Thanks you just made my day with two of the dumbest statements I've ever read on here.:laughing:

Let me help you out...global warming is a fact of life read any science journal on the subject matter. Did you just wake up from a 30 year nap?

A seasonal price only fixes the variables for the buyer... I thought this was a forum for suppliers


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

Ok let me get this back on track before it falls off the rails. I'm not new to snow removal however I am new to large commercial accounts requiring fixed price seasonal bids. Last year I plowed 12x and salted only another 5x the year before it was 11-2 or something close to that and the year before was around 13 and 3. The NOAA 30 year average for my area is closer to 9 and 2 so if I were to ignore the last 3 years and calculate my bid based upon the 30 year average thus ignoring the recent trend I would reduce my profit significantly and possibly lose money on an account like this. 

My point being these big box stores are encouraging low bids and could care less if another small business owner loses his shirt:realmad:

Does anyone know how reliable Brickman is when it comes to getting paid and do they write fair contracts? I just want to know if I'm wasting my time calculating this bid?


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

What area are you in?


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

erkoehler;1306814 said:


> What area are you in?


I'm in the Algonquin and Barrington communities. Do you have a good bulk salt supplier down near you?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

snow4me;1306808 said:


> Thanks you just made my day with two of the dumbest statements I've ever read on here.:laughing:
> 
> Let me help you out...global warming is a fact of life read any science journal on the subject matter. Did you just wake up from a 30 year nap?


You seriously think that global warming is fact? :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Me thinks you voted for Obumma as well.



> A seasonal price only fixes the variables for the buyer... I thought this was a forum for suppliers


Really grass hopper? A seasonal fixes your gross income for the year. So what if it snows a couple more times then you figured. You will lose less that way then if it snows a couple less times then you need to cover your costs for the year on a per event pricing system.

ps Your 30 history should take all that "global warming" into consideration. Besides you don't need to use the 30 years history. Use last year if you wish.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

On the noaa website, ibelieve in the lower right it will have a spot for historical data, im not sure how far back you can go but it goes by month, lists every day, tem, precp, etc.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

snow4me;1306745 said:


> Does anyone who does commercial work in Chicago area know how many times they went out last season? It seemed like.......


Seems like....?!

IF you are not new at this, why did you not learn about documentation right away?

Nuisance salting? I didn't know that existed...


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

TCLA;1306845 said:


> Nuisance salt? I didn't know that existed...


I think it is a cousin of hungry salt.


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

TCLA;1306845 said:


> Seems like....?!
> 
> IF you are not new at this, why did you not learn about documentation right away?
> 
> Nuisance salting? I didn't know that existed...


I see we have another nitwit with a chip on his shoulder this one from Michigan...last one from Iowa.

"Clowns to the left of me Jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you"

I was not going to look it up but since we have so many critics on here I did later this afternoon hence my later post "Last year I plowed 12x and salted 5x." The 5 times salting were for what those of us with higher than a 3rd grade education call nuisance snows. When it snows enough to make it slippery and not enough to plow. Nuisance; It means that which causes offence, annoyance, trouble or injury. It is more efficient to salt only when there is less than an inch of show which happened 5 times last year.


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

That's all you salted? I had way more saltings than that. You only salted 5 times without plowing? Did I read your post right?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

snow4me;1306861 said:


> I see we have another nitwit with a chip on his shoulder this one from Michigan...last one from Iowa.
> 
> "Clowns to the left of me Jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you"
> 
> I was not going to look it up but since we have so many critics on here I did later this afternoon hence my later post "Last year I plowed 12x and salted 5x." The 5 times salting were for what those of us with higher than a 3rd grade education call nuisance snows. When it snows enough to make it slippery and not enough to plow. Nuisance; It means that which causes offence, annoyance, trouble or injury. It is more efficient to salt only when there is less than an inch of show which happened 5 times last year.


Hey Jim he called you a nitwit.:laughing:


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

cretebaby;1306857 said:


> I think it is a cousin of hungry salt.


It's called a "nuisance snow" which is what I wrote in my original post but apparently both you and TCLA can't read or comprehend.

Didn't anyone ever tell you it is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to respond to a post on a public forum and confirm it?


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

You already seem to know everything so bid what you think. Basically all my sites are seasonal and I agree with Crete about it. Nothing is a nuisance if your making money while your doing it.


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

Holy moly I'm dieing here! I got prices from Brickman who we do some work for on the Target here I told them increase by 75% and we can talk, we aren't talking. The fact is they had to bid so cheap we won't deal with them. We thousands of dollars of work with them at our prices and we laughed at the Target prices.


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## newlooklandscp (Sep 27, 2005)

SullivanSeptic;1306864 said:


> That's all you salted? I had way more saltings than that. You only salted 5 times without plowing? Did I read your post right?


That is what I am getting from that. Im up in the 30's


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

SullivanSeptic;1306864 said:


> That's all you salted? I had way more saltings than that. You only salted 5 times without plowing? Did I read your post right?


I just double checked and realized I missed one salt only applied on 12/16 so I've got 6x up here in Barrington...how many do your records show from this past year and where are you located?

If some of you guys had seasonal contracts last year and had to salt 30x what did that do to your bottom line on those accounts. I realize that you should accept some seasonal contracts to ensure you make money in a low snow year. It seems to me that they key to mitigating your risk in snow removal is to keep a good balance between seasonal and per occurrence contracts. I'm just wondering what the Chicagoland guys use for a basis when calculating their costs on a seasonal contract. I mean if you salted 30x last year on a 6 acre lot and let's just say your cost was $500 per salt application then you spent $15K on salt alone. What are you guys bidding on something this size where you can still make a profit?


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

snow4me;1306861 said:


> I see we have another nitwit with a chip on his shoulder this one from Michigan...last one from Iowa.
> 
> *"Clowns to the left of me Jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you"*
> I was not going to look it up but since we have so many critics on here I did later this afternoon hence my later post "Last year I plowed 12x and salted 5x." The 5 times salting were for what those of us with higher than a 3rd grade education call nuisance snows. When it snows enough to make it slippery and not enough to plow. Nuisance; It means that which causes offence, annoyance, trouble or injury. It is more efficient to salt only when there is less than an inch of show which happened 5 times last year.


Did you just quote a "Steelers Wheel" song in a plowing forum? I was just checking?


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

I plow from Kankakee to Midway Airport. I dont have my records in front of me, but we went out at least 20 times for salt


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

snow4me;1306871 said:


> Yes I plowed and salted 12x and Salted only 5x...how many do your records show from this past year and where are you located?


I wouldn't trust his records, his area might have experienced more global warming than you did.


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## newlooklandscp (Sep 27, 2005)

SullivanSeptic;1306876 said:


> I plow from Kankakee to Midway Airport. I dont have my records in front of me, but we went out at least 20 times for salt


Im from Midway North to Northern Palatine and from the Lake to far west Glen Ellyn. I think 2009-10 was somewhere in the 26-29 range of salting, about 30+ the year before and at least 30 last season buy Im to lazy to look for exacts.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Excuse me, nit wit from wisconsin chiming in here, I love seasonals! Especially when you keep good records, know your costs, and have the eright equipment, and personnel. The only thing that throws me off is global cooling, (its a scientific fact) look it up


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

SullivanSeptic;1306874 said:


> Did you just quote a "Steelers Wheel" song in a plowing forum? I was just checking?


Yep here's another from the same song going out to my other fans here in Chitown...

Trying to make some sense of it all,
But I can see that it makes no sense at all,
Is it cool to go to sleep on the floor,
'Cause I don't think that I can take anymore
Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

newlooklandscp;1306884 said:


> Im from Midway North to Northern Palatine and from the Lake to far west Glen Ellyn. I think 2009-10 was somewhere in the 26-29 range of salting, about 30+ the year before and at least 30 last season buy Im to lazy to look for exacts.


I did only per occurence contracts last season and my customers of course only wanted to pay for one salt application per ice or snow less than 2" event. If I had seasonal contracts then I'm sure the number would have been much higher.

Are you saying you salted 30 plus times without plowing and plowed and salted another dozen times? I only counted and charged 3 plows for the blizzard. What did you guys charge for with your per occurrence contracts on that one?


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

Longae29;1306887 said:


> Excuse me, nit wit from wisconsin chiming in here, I love seasonals! Especially when you keep good records, know your costs, and have the eright equipment, and personnel. The only thing that throws me off is global cooling, (its a scientific fact) look it up


Thanks nitty from WI it's good to know you guys are managing your costs and still making money at this game. Hell I'd be disappointed if everyone on here was complaining like me ;-)


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

Camden;1306880 said:


> I wouldn't trust his records, his area might have experienced more global warming than you did.


Thanks for chiming in Minnesota!

Denial is not just a river in Africa my friend. Thumbs Up


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## johndeereguy (Oct 19, 2006)

I am trying to switch all of my account over to a seasonal price. I figure their price as what a average or normal winterwould be, then get a good 2-3 year contract. One year I may be ahead, then next the store may be, the 3rd it is even. At least this way I can buy equipment and supplies knowing what my income will be. Yo could do a huge lot and it pay $3500 a storm, but if it never snows, you have equipment to pay for with no income. I love the seasonal contracts. Wanting to get all of my mowing switched to that as well. No worries here about if its ever going to rain or snow. If it does, I am covered, if not, better yet!!


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

I salted one zero tolerance acct 38 times. We get a bit of lake effect here, but I'm not in the snow belt. I'll check actual pushes, I think 22, but I remember salts off the top of my head. 

And annual pricing is typically based on 3 years, not 30, and based on 20 pushes depending on your area. Ohare showed 56" last year IIRC and we were about 10 actual inches over that, and it was similar the couple years before. The blizzard put us over the top, but there wasn't much after it.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Camden;1306880 said:


> I wouldn't trust his records, his area might have experienced more global warming than you did.


That's funny Roy.

And Steelers Wheel. Hahahahahaha!

You seem to have no problem coming right out bumming for weather and activity info, and where to buy your salt!

Promise you'll stick around for a while.


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

Here's the chart I use throughout the season. I'm sure you can search around and find what you need. It's there, I'm just too lazy to do all the work for your estimate LOL 

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/product.php?site=LOT&product=CLI&issuedby=ORD


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

It sounds like even if you knew your averages Brickman is going to lowball you anyway. I would think IF you made a good living last year and retained all your customers for this one your life would be alot easier. good luck whatever happens,
Steve


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

Well we plow everything south of the mason dixon line and that gets alot of global warming so less salt 33 apps per season. We also plow everything north of the mason dixon line and that gets alot of global cooling so you use more salt 52 apps per season.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

These big box stores are a HUGE undertaking! You need to be able to put out so much for so long and still stay afloat until payday and thats usually not until towards the end of the season. You need to have so much in order, very dependable guys (good luck with that), be able to have a 30 minute MAXIMUM response time etc. At least your smart enough to recognize that just as easy as they can propel your business, they can crush it just as fast if not sooner.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

snow4me;1306861 said:


> I see we have another nitwit with a chip on his shoulder this one from Michigan...
> 
> The 5 times salting were for what those of us with higher than a 3rd grade education call nuisance snows.


Sorry...my 3rd grade education is limiting my abilities to focus cause I'm watching the Tigers shame your so called baseball team right now.

We can chat later.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

snow4me;1306866 said:


> It's called a "nuisance snow" which is what I wrote in my original post but apparently both you and TCLA can't read or comprehend.
> 
> Didn't anyone ever tell you it is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to respond to a post on a public forum and confirm it?


I am pretty sure you are the only one here that is a confirmed fool. 

I am not sure if Roy is confirmed yet. :laughing:


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

I used to be a manager at Target, and I now plow accounts similar to their requirements. I bet you'd be salting that lot 30-35 times including after Plowing. 

If it is slick at all you better be there by 7am at the latest


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

TCLA;1307039 said:


> Sorry...my 3rd grade education is limiting my abilities to focus cause I'm watching the Tigers shame your so called baseball team right now.
> 
> We can chat later.


Now that's just mean. We can't help it that Rios and Dunn are the two worst baseball players I have ever seen


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

SullivanSeptic;1307070 said:


> Now that's just mean. We can't help it that Rios and Dunn are the two worst baseball players I have ever seen


Hey it could be a lot worse...you could be a Twins fan :crying:


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

Camden;1307084 said:


> Hey it could be a lot worse...you could be a Twins fan :crying:


At least we have a nice stadium to keep people coming or the twins would be screwed. I saw on stub hub tickets for $1.

Sorry for the thread jack back to the subject. I say now is the time for seasonals, at least if global warming keeps up we will get paid to plow rain because it will be to warm to snow.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Wow, what a thread, should we take bets when this is going to be shut down by the moderators?


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## tjctransport (Nov 22, 2008)

if you are going to sub for brickman, plan on loosing money.
they do not like to pay for signed for hours. 

a direct quote: "there is no way possible you could work that many hours. we are not payng."

even though the supervisor was there for the 48 hours we were, and signed off on everything we did. 

they will be looking for a new subcontractor this year to do the 2 lowes stores, 3 senior complexes and 2 private housing comunities.

and will have a heck of a time finding one, because everyone in the area knows what they did to us.


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## wizardsr (Aug 8, 2006)

Wow! Epic thread! Thumbs Up Someone save it before it goes *poof*.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Brian Young;1307036 said:


> These big box stores are a HUGE undertaking! You need to be able to put out so much for so long and still stay afloat until payday and thats usually not until towards the end of the season. You need to have so much in order, very dependable guys (good luck with that), be able to have a 30 minute MAXIMUM response time etc. At least your smart enough to recognize that just as easy as they can propel your business, they can crush it just as fast if not sooner.


your 100% right on that one.

I had heard from a few people that if you plow hourly for brickmen they pay out quickly? i have never worked for them, so i couldnt say?

anybody ever work for them that could confirm how they pay?


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

tjctransport;1307150 said:


> if you are going to sub for brickman, plan on loosing money.
> they do not like to pay for signed for hours.
> 
> a direct quote: "there is no way possible you could work that many hours. we are not payng."
> ...


sounds like a very lawsuit waiting to happen, I hope you sue the hell out of them


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

erkoehler;1307069 said:


> I used to be a manager at Target, and I now plow accounts similar to their requirements. I bet you'd be salting that lot 30-35 times including after Plowing.
> 
> If it is slick at all you better be there by 7am at the latest


Thank you I appreciate your candor. This is the type of information I was hoping to find on here.


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## snow4me (Oct 8, 2008)

got-h2o;1306980 said:


> I salted one zero tolerance acct 38 times. We get a bit of lake effect here, but I'm not in the snow belt. I'll check actual pushes, I think 22, but I remember salts off the top of my head.
> 
> And annual pricing is typically based on 3 years, not 30, and based on 20 pushes depending on your area. Ohare showed 56" last year IIRC and we were about 10 actual inches over that, and it was similar the couple years before. The blizzard put us over the top, but there wasn't much after it.


Thank you for sharing your knowledge. So you based your seasonal on 20 pushes and plowed 22 times...good estimating for an above average winter last year.

How many salts did you count into your seasonal bid price then?


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## SnoBull (Oct 1, 2009)

Snow4me: Avoid them. You will starve if you put your eggs in their basket. They are very slow to pay as well. If you have USM in your area, they are worse. They want documentation/pictures of EVERYTHING and then on top of that they question you to prove it saying they dont have the correct paper work from you, work orders etc in order to process payment. Dont be surprised if you have to send the same invoice to them 5x's. Both companies are pretty much the same to their subcontractors. USM is a much larger entity though.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

SullivanSeptic;1306864 said:


> That's all you salted? I had way more saltings than that. You only salted 5 times without plowing? Did I read your post right?


I was amazed at that number as well.



erkoehler;1307069 said:


> I used to be a manager at Target, and I now plow accounts similar to their requirements. I bet you'd be salting that lot 30-35 times including after Plowing.
> 
> If it is slick at all you better be there by 7am at the latest


What would you know then?

Nitwits, fools, Gorbal warming and Roy all in one thread. Amazing.


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## northernsweeper (Aug 26, 2004)

Just thought I would let you know, BFS called me wanting me to plow our local Super Target this year. Their all inclusive seasonal price was 11,000


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

> #51 Today, 05:43 PM
> northernsweeper
> Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004
> Location: Northern Mn.
> ...


Are you for real or just BS'ing us


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## Advantage (Nov 7, 2007)

northernsweeper;1307354 said:


> Just thought I would let you know, BFS called me wanting me to plow our local Super Target this year. Their all inclusive seasonal price was 11,000


Wow. I gave them a price for one in somewhat the same area and have not heard back yet. Now I know why.


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## northernsweeper (Aug 26, 2004)

No, I wish I was B.S. ing, then I could find some humor in it, but needless to say, I didn't think it was to funny either. They wanted me to call with my lowest possible price. I did, about two weeks ago, and haven't heard a word from them since. Seems the only difference between them and USM, is the name.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

northernsweeper;1307354 said:


> Just thought I would let you know, BFS called me wanting me to plow our local Super Target this year. Their all inclusive seasonal price was 11,000


And you guys wonder why I rag on these nationals all the time........ theres NO difference between any of them ......


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## northernsweeper (Aug 26, 2004)

Mick, when you"re right...Your RIGHT!!


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

Northern your in MN correct ? Don't you guys get a decent amount of snow ? I don't think that price would cover salt, fuel & operators here, let alone any actual equipment or overhead costs. The worst part of the whole deal is that everyone (Target, Brickman, etc) that it can't be done for those prices. Yet they still try. That's my biggest complaint about this industy (it's probably like this in every business), there are so many scam artists.


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

snow4me;1307273 said:


> Thank you for sharing your knowledge. So you based your seasonal on 20 pushes and plowed 22 times...good estimating for an above average winter last year.
> 
> How many salts did you count into your seasonal bid price then?


Not a problem. I estimated 30 salt visits. As for going over, it was set at a capped rate, but I failed to insert a blizzard clause since they required me to sign their contract after all was said and done. Fortunately the blizzard set us just over the cap and we agreed to an additional dollar amount that was negotiated to be fair to everyone. Initially it was like pulling teeth, but it was infact the terms of THEIR contract at that point


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

This thread made my night. Thanks for the laughs everyone!

Nitwits all! (lol jk... maybe!)


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

nevermind not worth even stating


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## creek1 (Mar 5, 2011)

I was recently offered two local Target stores in my area. The initial offer from the GC was roughly half of what I was paid last year for the same property. I responded with the minimum that I would service the store for and am waiting for the response so we will see. Last winter we had 15 full pushes with salt and an additional 6 times of just salting.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

got-h2o;1307510 said:


> Not a problem. I estimated 30 salt visits. As for going over, it was set at a capped rate, but I failed to insert a blizzard clause since they required me to sign their contract after all was said and done. Fortunately the blizzard set us just over the cap and we agreed to an additional dollar amount that was negotiated to be fair to everyone. Initially it was like pulling teeth, but it was infact the terms of THEIR contract at that point


so heres the question, did they pay on time? for the basic part of the seasonal contract and for the extras?


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

elite1msmith;1307652 said:


> so heres the question, did they pay on time? for the basic part of the seasonal contract and for the extras?


Initially they were 30 days past due by the time they set me up in accts payable through coorporate, buy then they were on board. It sucked being 60 days out starting a large account early in the season, but that's part of the game sometimes I guess. It took about another 30 days extra to collect the additional, but the excuse was they thought it was a duplicate invoice. I have a feeling it was still being debated on the inside. The one G.M. had a real problem with it and was trying hard for a feather in his hat. He accidentally included an email conversation in a FWD to me one time. I got the best of him though. :salute:


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

got-h2o;1307848 said:


> Initially they were 30 days past due by the time they set me up in accts payable through coorporate, buy then they were on board. It sucked being 60 days out starting a large account early in the season, but that's part of the game sometimes I guess. It took about another 30 days extra to collect the additional, but the excuse was they thought it was a duplicate invoice. I have a feeling it was still being debated on the inside. The one G.M. had a real problem with it and was trying hard for a feather in his hat. He accidentally included an email conversation in a FWD to me one time. I got the best of him though. :salute:


so just to clarify, fist payment was 30 days late, but then they caught up? or they remained 30 days late for the duration of the contract?

Was 30 days a result of a last min contract signing, or was it because they play games and dont have their ***** together?

after everything, would you work for them again?


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

Im going to stand up for BFS. We're not working for the local brickman landscape branch but rather the paper pushing people in Marion Ohio. The last 2 years we did a big box store for them and likewise, this week they offered me a Target too. They are great to work for, were reasonable when we exceeded our cap, and pay promptly. We are still hashing out numbers for Target but Im confident we will find a number good for both of us.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Maclawnco;1308369 said:


> Im going to stand up for BFS. We're not working for the local brickman landscape branch but rather the paper pushing people in Marion Ohio. The last 2 years we did a big box store for them and likewise, this week they offered me a Target too. They are great to work for, were reasonable when we exceeded our cap, and pay promptly. We are still hashing out numbers for Target but Im confident we will find a number good for both of us.


If you dont mind me asking? same question to you? did they pay on time or did they pull some usm b.s.


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

paid great. I wasnt too happy when we went over our cap on *store 1* but we made bank before hitting it. Payments were, for the most part, on time, very routine. No paperwork garbage each storm. Just call their phone number and tell the computer what was done. As long as there was weather data to support your work called in, they approved the work and send a check about 30 days later. 

We managed to work a deal for the Target I wanted today. I knew my numbers and stood firm. Got my price, am happy. 

Would be glad to take more work through BFS.


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## adksnowo (Dec 14, 2005)

One theory you can use for bidding seasonals has always been using historical data but basing your bid on the worst or close to worst historical snow season so no matter what you can CYA.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Ive seen paperwork from companies saying bids for seasonal in NJ areas should be between 14 -23inches... we've gotten 74 inches and 42 inches... we you'd be an idiot to bid "30 year averages", but thats what they want because they know it will heavily skew the bid too low and jam you up. I've seen more of it this year than in the last 5 years total. Its difficult for the larger management firms to take seasonal bids now so they're working to get prices back down.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

snow4me;1306808 said:


> Thanks you just made my day with two of the dumbest statements I've ever read on here.:laughing:
> 
> Let me help you out...global warming is a fact of life read any science journal on the subject matter. Did you just wake up from a 30 year nap?
> 
> A seasonal price only fixes the variables for the buyer... I thought this was a forum for suppliers


took the words right out of my mouth... i kept looking to find out if he was joking about it!

Ive seen lots of established companies loose their a$$ over a seasonal contract they bid "correctly" for the market and yet in the last two years, NJ has had some monster snow storms and accumulations 2-3x our normal of a "good year".

We bid seasonals higher anticipating more snow say for $20,000... honestly thats assuming 30" ~ for the year. When we got 74", i would have lost a lot too, best part is, the winning bid was $13,900 something, and they were trying to get us to come down because they never heard of the company that bid low... sorry not my problem. This year they came to us again, we bid $24,500.... manager called me, why is it higher? We could pay you closer to 20k this year! Sorry bud, 20k was my lowest offer last year, this year its more. No word yet... hah.

Seasonal pricing always opens the door for what services should REALLY be rendered for your "set price". We all know, we put down salt when its needed, if thats 25x a season, we bill for 25 times. Seasonals will expect it more often. Same with snow, they assume because they have a set price that you must meet every demand them have and request because "they've paid for it already". Per push or event pricing, they'll not bother you about every nickel and dime because they know they'll be charged somewhere for it.


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## northernsweeper (Aug 26, 2004)

BFS called my cell the other morning around 7am. I had just crawled into bed, so I didn't answer it. They didn't leave a message, but their number was there. My wife told me I should call them back. I laughed, no I don't think so. Its all part of their business plan I told her. They need you to want them, more than they want you. The more you want it, the cheaper you will do it. No thanks...Been there, done that. Better to find something else to do, than work at losing money.


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## iceman1 (Aug 10, 2011)

The problem is they will find someone!! If everyone just said no to national management companies we would all be better off. Take charge and just say no! this is like a drug campain and the drug is money with a catch. Snow does not work National just ask Wal-Mart


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

Ramairfreak98ss;1317525 said:


> took the words right out of my mouth... i kept looking to find out if he was joking about it!
> 
> Ive seen lots of established companies loose their a$$ over a seasonal contract they bid "correctly" for the market and yet in the last two years, NJ has had some monster snow storms and accumulations 2-3x our normal of a "good year".
> 
> ...


After last year I will never take another seasonal contract from a national company
unless it is at least avg x 1.5 with 30% due by Dec 1st. and a Blizzard Clause.

I have been doing this for 20 years and this has to come to an end soon.

They have to be running out of contractors to screw.....right?

And from what I here from my insurance agent, many contractors are being dropped,
some with no way to get coverage unless they pay 3 or 4 times the previous rate.

Every National has called me already and They don't sound happy. They don't seem to like my terms.

Oh and to add a comment for some...30-60 days late means you are getting screwed,
wake up. This is the digital age. They can pay you on time.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

So...................snow4me, How's your non-seasonal accounts treating you ths year? Covering your costs?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Thank you so much crete! I forgot this gem was out here. LMAO re-reading the start of this mess.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

I'm having a good winter also working for Brick-man.

Flame me all you want, but I'm still bringing in income if it doesn't snow. I've almost got all my accounts set up where volume wise I'll be 50/50 to the seasonal to the per-push.

Even after last years record snow, I came out ahead on the Brickman account. Didn't lose my shirt like everyone said I would.

Their contracts have stipulations for the number of saltings and pushes during store hours to protect the subs from being at the beck and call of the store managers.


.....


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

TCLA;1402094 said:


> Thank you so much crete! I forgot this gem was out here. LMAO re-reading the start of this mess.


Yeah, I also forgot this one was out there. Good stuff


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

Found out the other day BFS is holding 10% of all (Target) payments in escrow until the end of each season to cover any damages. Best part, its not written in the contract as such. Good times!


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

I have a Lowes I am doing through Brickman and so far, so good. The checks have been on time and no other issues or hassles. As of right now, it has been a GREAT first 2 months.So far, I have only salted 2 times, and a very small amount of salt each time. I know the last 4 could really make up for it though. At this point, it would have to dump some really record snowfalls for me to get anywhere close to breaking even. In other words, this year is lots of $$ in the bank.

Knock on wood, as next year could bite me hard in the a$$, because my guess is that they will try and lowball me with the price. I could see the old "Well, last year it hardly snowed and we expect the same thing this year, so the initial offering is lower"

I will walk away if that happens. If nothing else, I can tell you already that next years rate will be higher than this one when hits their desks, certainly NOT lower!

The other problem we will ALL have in the next year or two is the fact that the amount of slip and fall lawsuits are getting out of control and the insurance CO's are all changing their underwriting guidelines. The one CO I sell for now has a questionnaire that MUST be filled out for any contractor that does any type of snow removal. If the customer does commercial work of any kind, it then asks for the size of the lots being cleared. If that lot is connected to any large big box store, the application is rejected (at least for the plowing coverage).

Another CO is in the process of changing their application too, as they had 3 big losses in one year from one particular large store. You guess who that store is? It won't be hard........they are the biggest. I can't mention their name, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

I may not be able to even bid on any large seasonals next year, as the insurance CO I have is one who is changing their guidelines. I am an agent and I may not be able to find anyone who will give me the coverage!. Maybe I should put it this way, "There will always be a CO that will offer it, but can you afford to pay the premiums and still stay in business?" That will be the question


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## H&HPropertyMait (Oct 17, 2011)

some people's kids...


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## exmark1 (Nov 30, 2005)

I know the Target here went cheap, didn't hear an exact number but it is being plowed by a old Gehl skidloader with a dirt bucket, and an early 90's F-150 with an old Meyer straight blade that looks like it's going to lose a tire the front is so bad... They salt it with a push spreader!


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

LOl. And with this winter they are getting away with it.


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## Second Nature (Nov 23, 2011)

Our entire business and customer base is located in an area of multiple small towns and much rural countryside. There are precious few big box stores, but every town (over 3,000 pop) obviously has a WalMart, CVS, Walgreens or other national chain retailer. The occasional Lowes, Target, Home Depot, and other large retailers may be seen. They are no temptation for us, and we routinely turn down their requests to bid.

Many years ago...in the days of John Allin and his badly-conceived group...we contracted to plow a local CVS. The usual documentation processes existed and were followed. The work went off without a hitch. The local GM was satisfied, and all was well for a few years. Then suddenly came the need to re-bid every job for them every year. Suddenly 20-30 days turned into 45-60+. The paper and phone trail became more intensive. The demands increased to the point of absurdity. While evaluating this situation one dry winter day, I realized something: "I'm giving this customer more mental attention than any other. 75% of the effort there is to please the store, and 25% is just to get paid and maintain the account. This customer has insidiously pushed to the front of our priority list, while actually being one of our least rewarding". About this same time I was contacted by Snow Management and asked to bid on an entire region of CVS stores. After much evaluation and discussion, the decision came down to me. I declined to bid, or to get further mixed into a recipe where we were simply an ingredient.

Remarkably, Allin's company (this is all well documented) developed severe financial heartburn soon after. Their antacid of choice?....Refuse to pay outstanding accounts. One of those accounts was ours, and I was of course...not happy. The path I pursued resulted in a 100% final payment and no money lost. No legal fees or suits happened, but they could have developed. His ship went down and took some others with it, but ours had already cut the lines and set sail. 

That was the last time we ever worked in a subcontractor capacity for anyone. I determined right then that our future would not be built upon the foundation of some major contractor or maintenance company. I've told many companies since then that we'll do 1:1 business with them, but not as an "agent". We don't need that level of aggravation or risk. We DO need a level of trust and dependability with our customers. Our prompt-payment, long term customers absolutely get priority service from us...as they should. Why would I give that to an entity which wants 1) the lowest price, 2) yearly bidding, 3) fast, priority response, 4) excessive documentation, and 5) slow payment terms? Game-players, strategists and deadbeats get eliminated quickly around here.

I learned a long time ago that cancer is a spreading disease, and I'll not invite it inside my company.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

What is irritating is the prices that these box stores went for this year and the geniuses that took them are lucking out. How is the prices ever going to where they need to be now?


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Second Nature;1402900 said:


> Our entire business and customer base is located in an area of multiple small towns and much rural countryside. There are precious few big box stores, but every town (over 3,000 pop) obviously has a WalMart, CVS, Walgreens or other national chain retailer. The occasional Lowes, Target, Home Depot, and other large retailers may be seen. They are no temptation for us, and we routinely turn down their requests to bid.
> 
> Many years ago...in the days of John Allin and his badly-conceived group...we contracted to plow a local CVS. The usual documentation processes existed and were followed. The work went off without a hitch. The local GM was satisfied, and all was well for a few years. Then suddenly came the need to re-bid every job for them every year. Suddenly 20-30 days turned into 45-60+. The paper and phone trail became more intensive. The demands increased to the point of absurdity. While evaluating this situation one dry winter day, I realized something: "I'm giving this customer more mental attention than any other. 75% of the effort there is to please the store, and 25% is just to get paid and maintain the account. This customer has insidiously pushed to the front of our priority list, while actually being one of our least rewarding". About this same time I was contacted by Snow Management and asked to bid on an entire region of CVS stores. After much evaluation and discussion, the decision came down to me. I declined to bid, or to get further mixed into a recipe where we were simply an ingredient.
> 
> ...


Thumbs Up   Thumbs Up


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

snow4me;1306861 said:


> I see we have another nitwit with a chip on his shoulder this one from Michigan...last one from Iowa.


I think this may be the funniest statement in this thread.

If snow4me only knew who TCLA is.

This one's for you snow4:


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Excellent post Second nature!:salute: Couldn't agree more.


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

Italiano67;1402905 said:


> What is irritating is the prices that these box stores went for this year and the geniuses that took them are lucking out. How is the prices ever going to where they need to be now?


It will come back to bite them. It is inevitable that a year will come where they have bid low and we get record snow. Once that happens, they will keep plowing until they run out of $$ to keep the plows running and the salt flowing. The national will find out the hard way by the sub not showing up or returning phone calls when a storm hits.

The national will then have to pay someone else to do the work (or bring their own trucks in). My guess is that they will keep a running tab and then bill the sub who backed out at the end of the season. If the sub doesn't have enough $$ to even finish the contract, I doubt they will have anything worth taking if sued?

Anyway, this will have to happen on a large scale for the prices, policies and tactics of the big management COs to change?


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## northernsweeper (Aug 26, 2004)

Second Nature;1402900 said:


> Our entire business and customer base is located in an area of multiple small towns and much rural countryside. There are precious few big box stores, but every town (over 3,000 pop) obviously has a WalMart, CVS, Walgreens or other national chain retailer. The occasional Lowes, Target, Home Depot, and other large retailers may be seen. They are no temptation for us, and we routinely turn down their requests to bid.
> 
> Many years ago...in the days of John Allin and his badly-conceived group...we contracted to plow a local CVS. The usual documentation processes existed and were followed. The work went off without a hitch. The local GM was satisfied, and all was well for a few years. Then suddenly came the need to re-bid every job for them every year. Suddenly 20-30 days turned into 45-60+. The paper and phone trail became more intensive. The demands increased to the point of absurdity. While evaluating this situation one dry winter day, I realized something: "I'm giving this customer more mental attention than any other. 75% of the effort there is to please the store, and 25% is just to get paid and maintain the account. This customer has insidiously pushed to the front of our priority list, while actually being one of our least rewarding". About this same time I was contacted by Snow Management and asked to bid on an entire region of CVS stores. After much evaluation and discussion, the decision came down to me. I declined to bid, or to get further mixed into a recipe where we were simply an ingredient.
> 
> ...


Well said!!:salute:


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## Second Nature (Nov 23, 2011)

There is a deliberate and very well thought-out reason why big companies use these practices. We know it as "holding on to money", but it goes way beyond that. An essential fact for most payors (companies spending money) is that the longer you hold an invoice, the more you save. Your vendors lose track of invoices and accounts receivable. Some of them assume you're paying when you're not. Disputing an invoice will often result in money saved. Money retained...even short term...is drawing interest of thousands per day or week. Small vendors get into trouble and close their doors...the bill never gets paid. The Big Picture is that being a big, slow-to-pay customer is a way to add to your bottom line. It's done routinely and strategically.

We always determine a customer's payment practices before contracting with them. They understand up front that taking longer to pay will simply result in a higher base price. Who has time to fart with surcharges, interest, account maintenance and the like? We don't. If you pay slow, you pay more from the outset. That's it.


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

*payment on time*

Well, if anybody cares, I have all the $$ owed to me by Brickman on time so far. At this point, I only have 2 saltings in this. Only the good Lord knows what lies ahead though? This is my first year dealing with them, so I may change my opinion quickly, LOl It is a seasonal contract, so I only have to call in and report and I don't have a crazy paper trail to deal with. I am just keeping my fingers crossed!


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## PhilFromErie (Jun 29, 2009)

Very well put SecondNature.


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