# Pricing on a commercial lot by the season



## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

I've been plowing for awhile now commercial and residential. A rather larger 315,000 sqft opportunity has arised and They pay by the season. I've never priced out a lot this big at a seasonal rate so I'm basically asking for a little insight on how to go about it. I have access to loaders and skid steers along with my usual equipment so that's not a problem. I know some people charge their hourly rate but this account requires someone on site the whole storm not just 2 swipes at 6" and 6". High traffic rate even when it snows and a lot of people. Any help would be greatly appreciated


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

You need to post a screen shot of said property, Trigger levels, Average snow events for your area. Is there curb islands all over, Is there green line around to pile snow, Any sidewalks? Do you have salt storage?

You need to post what state your in and region. Truthfully if you are friends with any Contractors in your area that are honest and not scared of you competing would be your best bet. Some states get more for snow moving than others. Good luck


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

Connecticut, there is a lot of curb islands and a few raised storm drains. A few sidewalks that are pretty long and what they've done for piling is use a few parking spots in the corners for snow. I know a few contractors in the area but don't trust them. I know the spot real well cause I've worked for that company for 14 years


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Try to find out what they paid the last few years.


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

The managers of the store dont have access to that info, I have the direct line to the property management company and they can't give out that information. I've tried to find out multiple times and can't get the price.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Property managment company generally equals low bid gets it. Especially on 7 acres. That's not a whole lot of pavement to worry about qualifying a contractor. 

Get a base line by figuring your per service price, and multiplying by the average number of services you have per season.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Is this a local company, or a National?


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

Regional, they expand down into Maryland and Delaware so it's a decent size grocery chain.


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Property managment company generally equals low bid gets it. Especially on 7 acres. That's not a whole lot of pavement to worry about qualifying a contractor.
> 
> Get a base line by figuring your per service price, and multiplying by the average number of services you have per season.


They've had contractors for the last 20+ years, it requires a lot of upkeep and atleast 3 workers on the premises the whole duration of the storm.


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

Does 50k seem steep? I wanna price competitively but don't wanna take a bath on it.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

None of us are going to be able to tell you your price. 

I already told you exactly how to price it. 

Figure out what you would charge per service. Then, figure out how many times you'll service it for each thing (plow/salt/walks) and multiply by your per service price. If you're scared, add a percentage as a CYA move. 

I can tell you here, you would be laughed out of town at that price. But that does absolutely no good for you, because you're 15 hours away. We take care of more than one Wally World and even those overexpectant jackarses don't expect 3 people onsite the entire storm. We've got a hospital and a manufacturing facility that do expect that, and they pay hourly. Im not sure I would want to gamble taking either of those two on a seasonal agreement unless it were capped at or close to our average snowfall.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Peewee1986 said:


> Does 50k seem steep? I wanna price competitively but don't wanna take a bath on it.


Did you figure a base price like John deere green told you to. You have to start by knowing your average snow events, Figure how long the job will take you. You have to know your salt pricing, Your area means a lot, Some places are ghetto pricing and some places get a premium. Are these stores 24 hrs?

Are you ready for a property that size by the season, Seasonal clients tend to be demanding. Do you have a GL and WC in place? Do you own the heavy equipment needed and a backup plan. Meaning backup loaders etc.

Not to discourage you, Moving snow the meat left on the bone is getting less and less as years go by. Are you in a position where you can finance the job for 60 to 90 days if needed?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> None of us are going to be able to tell you your price.
> 
> I already told you exactly how to price it.
> 
> ...


You were must be typing when I was. You beat me to it. lol


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

It's not a Wally World, the store is open till midnight but have night workers. The store only closes for 6 hours. 16-20 average storms, I figured 12 hours onsite. Loader operator, skid operator and shoveler. The removal needs to be kept up with the whole storm and the area has very high end clientele with high expectations. Number of storms X hours X hourly rate plus percentage. Originally I came up with under 40k rounded up and factored in payroll and came up with the business pulling 5k after payroll and expenses.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

What's your snowfall average per year? Loader and a skid steer both? On 7 acres?


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

100-120 inches. That's what's been onsite for the past 14 years I've worked there. Loader Pushing with a 12 foot pusher and a skid moving piles off the lot/into the corners.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Peewee1986 said:


> 100-120 inches. That's what's been onsite for the past 14 years I've worked there. Loader Pushing with a 12 foot pusher and a skid moving piles off the lot/into the corners.


Same Contractor for 14yrs?


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

Same for 12. Past 2 years were different companies the first different company any got fired for doing a horrible job and then the next contractor who will not be hired again cause they did a horrible job. The expectations are very high for this company.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

There's a general rule of thumb here on PS: if you have to ask how to bid it, you just might be a *******.......oops, wrong one. If you have to ask how to bid it, you just might be in over your head.

Same contractor for 12 years and then 2 in 2 years. Someone came in low, some idiot thought the price sounded great and fired the guy who had been doing a great job at a price he could make money at. And you have 2 contractors in 2 years. Both did crappy work. You do the math. If expectations are high, so is the cost. Obviously contractor #1 for 12 years knew what it cost and how to do it. #2 and #3 for 1 year each didn't.

BTW, contractors don't say they average 100-120" per year. That's a huge difference. Everyone has 10 year and\or 100 year averages, from the NWS. Theoretically that could be 20 salt events. Or one massive dump that takes 3x as long to clear as a 3-5" storm.

12 hours for 7 acres? With a loader and a skidsteer? Does that include walks?

A quick search of the Google shows the highest average snowfall in CT as 64".

http://www.usa.com/rank/connecticut-state--average-snow--city-rank.htm

I checked my state (same site), and they are about 8-10" low for my area. So I checked another result.....still not showing 100".

https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Connecticut/annual-snowfall.php

And this one:

http://www.ct.gov/deep/cwp/view.asp?a=2688&q=322366

I like this little gem: _-10th-Last snowfall of the 1996 season establishes new snowfall record of 115.2 inches surpassing old record set in 1993-1994, by more than 20 inches. _

So until you can get some facts straight, no one can even give you a ballpark number.

If this helps, our 50 or 100 year average is 74 or 75", our 10 year average is 84". But in '13-'14 we had 118". Doesn't make our average 118".


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

Well I can tell you most numbers are wrong. Those sites I've searched says our average is 20-30 inches in my area and that's a load of crap. I've been doing this awhile now and I can say atleast 2 storms every year goes over that total. As far as being over my head I'm not, I expanding into other avenues. I started with residentials added commercial and now I'm ready to move on and expand while keeping my other accounts. I guess it's tough to understand that the contractors are contracted to stay on site to pre treat and stay the duration of the storm. It doesn't matter how much it snows it just needs to be kept clear 100% no excuses. In a high end community this is expected... Being questioned on what's required is what it is and that exactly what this company expects. I don't make up their requirements. From my local experience my rates are very reasonable and have no problems getting what I charge. When I was trying to figure my bid out I am high so I can expect the unexpected and be covered, if it comes in lower great if it's above average I'm covered and I'm not losing money. I'm not in it to lose my shirt because I planned poorly. So back to the question if we average 100" and 20 events at $150 hour what do you think is fair?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

150.00 per man, piece of equipment. Or for everyone? Put up a picture of the site. Do you own all the equipment needed, or your renting, or borrowing? You have a large salt truck, ability to buy and store bulk salt. Here I get 125.00 an hour for a pickup doing roads. Every area has different rates.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Peewee1986 said:


> Well I can tell you most numbers are wrong. Those sites I've searched says our average is 20-30 inches in my area and that's a load of crap. I've been doing this awhile now and I can say atleast 2 storms every year goes over that total.


So post up your town\city or a link to the nearest reporting station. NWS has records for this.

The state website says the record was '96 at 115". You state your average is 100-120". You don't get an average of 100" just because someplace in CT got 115" 20 years ago. We've had 4 years over 100" in the past 10 and we haven't come close to averaging 100" and I can assure you, GR gets more snow than anyplace in CT on average.

Point being, how can anyone take you seriously if you won't post your town\city and you are providing incorrect information. How much of the rest is incorrect?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Peewee1986 said:


> Well I can tell you most numbers are wrong. Those sites I've searched says our average is 20-30 inches in my area and that's a load of crap. I've been doing this awhile now and I can say atleast 2 storms every year goes over that total. As far as being over my head I'm not, I expanding into other avenues. I started with residentials added commercial and now I'm ready to move on and expand while keeping my other accounts. I guess it's tough to understand that the contractors are contracted to stay on site to pre treat and stay the duration of the storm. It doesn't matter how much it snows it just needs to be kept clear 100% no excuses. In a high end community this is expected... Being questioned on what's required is what it is and that exactly what this company expects. I don't make up their requirements. From my local experience my rates are very reasonable and have no problems getting what I charge. When I was trying to figure my bid out I am high so I can expect the unexpected and be covered, if it comes in lower great if it's above average I'm covered and I'm not losing money. I'm not in it to lose my shirt because I planned poorly. So back to the question if we average 100" and 20 events at $150 hour what do you think is fair?


It sounds like you've got it all figured out.

Mark, Randall, why are we wasting our time here?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> It sounds like you've got it all figured out.
> 
> Mark, Randall, why are we wasting our time here?


Well, the shops kinda quiet this week. I'm stopping now, before I get deleted.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Randall Ave said:


> Well, the shops kinda quiet this week. I'm stopping now, before I get deleted.


Likewise................


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

X3....


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

It sounds like you've got it all figured out then. 

Good luck!


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## Peewee1986 (Sep 22, 2015)

Thanks! That's so nice of you!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Peewee1986 said:


> Apparently you can't read and I'm sorry for that, I guess the education system in Ohio sucks. I used the numbers as a example with my method of pricing. If you try and reread what I typed I used those numbers and my equation to come up with a price.... Following? I then asked if that way was a good method maybe not exactly as typed before this sentence but essentially that's what was asked. If you can't understand that then oh well. Feeble mind? Lol far from it cupcake, I can guarantee that My way of thinking and education is far superior. Next I'm not punching buttons on my keyboard, physically impossible to form sentences that way..... Price high to cover your ass, there's the reason I'll be in business longer with a exceptional clientele base. Carry on kid!


Bro, Chill out! You come here asking for advice, You got the best advice you could get, No screen shot of property, You don't quite understand snow averages for your area and Mark put a link up. JDG told you what to do to his best ability as he is not in your area.

You have not answered simple questions, Meaning do you own the equipment needed, You been asked if you have a backup plan, You been asked if your insured correctly. You been asked if you can finance material and storage. Do you know how much materials (salt) you will need. But you are just looking for somebody to throw a number at you.

If you can't get any advice from local guys it's time to get your feet wet, Go with your numbers and see where you come out job awarded or not. Your asking for help, It's not that simple, All anybody here on plowsite can give you the fundamentals not price the job for you, Good Luck


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

closing this one out...you have to take the good with the bad. You asked for advice and they gave it, yeah they like to joke around and give some a hard time but they are still offering advice and real world experiences. So move on and DO NOT use such uncalled for langauge or call other members here such names moving forward

Thanks


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