# Need help with a commercial bid.



## Allcare (Aug 29, 2020)

Per application to plow and salt

Southern Ontario (12-16 plowing events + 18-24 saltings per year on avg) 

15 schools totaling around 550,000 sq ft total route is a within a 25km radius. 2" trigger. If 2" is down by 2am it has to be cleared once by 7:30am. 

Salt after the snow has stopped

I figure i will need a new holland T4 tractor. 10-15' blade. One 3500 with a plow and salter as well. Plow is a 10'dxt and vbx 3000. I currently have the truck but would need to purchase everything else.

My fixed costs per month would be $1300 for the tractor setup and $550 for the plow and salter and insurance quoted me an extra $600 per month.

My variable costs are gas $300 per plow or $70 per salting.

Hr rate for employees $25 x 14 $350 to plow
$100 to salt.

$275 per yard (after hours)
6 yards to salt everything $1650.00 per outing. 

I figure with drive time 14 man hrs to plow. 4 man hrs to pick up 2 loads of salt and to spread. 

No shoveling and if it keeps snowing all day we don't have to go back till schools out and we get paid for a 2nd app to clean up. 

What would you guys charge? I have an idea but i i want to know if I'm in the ball park.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

@cet


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## shawn_ (Jan 19, 2014)

130k seasonal.
I’m not sure how you plan on doing 13 acres with only 1 tractor and 1 truck and have everything open at once that’s a 15 mile radius . Seems more unrealistic . I just added up your expenses at 10 hours per storm ( which is probably light) your monthly costs it seems like a lot of expenses .


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## Allcare (Aug 29, 2020)

shawn_ said:


> 130k seasonal.
> I'm not sure how you plan on doing 13 acres with only 1 tractor and 1 truck and have everything open at once that's a 15 mile radius . Seems more unrealistic . I just added up your expenses at 10 hours per storm ( which is probably light) your monthly costs it seems like a lot of expenses .


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## Allcare (Aug 29, 2020)

I have 2 other trucks set up as well already i plan on bumping over for 2 hrs. So 3 trucks and 1 tractor. If there's an inch on the pavement by 12am were starting then opposed to 2am when the trigger is hit. 130k is about what i figured. Was banking on $3800-4300 per plow and $4000-4500 per saltng application. Where i am near toronto the want pay per push and per salting app thats why i am worried about covering my costs if we have a lean winter. 4 or 5 years ago we only plowed 8 times and salted 12 times. Thanks for the reply.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Allcare said:


> I have 2 other trucks set up as well already i plan on bumping over for 2 hrs. So 3 trucks and 1 tractor. If there's an inch on the pavement by 12am were starting then opposed to 2am when the trigger is hit. 130k is about what i figured. Was banking on $3800-4300 per plow and $4000-4500 per saltng application. Where i am near toronto the want pay per push and per salting app thats why i am worried about covering my costs if we have a lean winter. 4 or 5 years ago we only plowed 8 times and salted 12 times. Thanks for the reply.


Try to see if they'd be open to entertaining a seasonal (or monthly) all in price. Being a school board, I'm sure they'd love the budget aspect of it (knowing exactly what they will be paying give or take going above a pre- set amount of applications). That way you don't have to stress if it's a light winter (or a heavy one).


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Allcare said:


> Per application to plow and salt
> 
> Southern Ontario (12-16 plowing events + 18-24 saltings per year on avg)
> 
> ...


Also, I know it's paid for, but you need to factor in the monthly cost of your truck. Might as well factor it as the lease / finance amount you were paying before you paid it off.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Also, you need to find out if certain schools are higher priority than others so you can prioritize in the route


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Allcare said:


> Per application to plow and salt
> 
> Southern Ontario (12-16 plowing events + 18-24 saltings per year on avg)
> 
> ...


How many of the 15 schools are High schools?
You'll want to plow everything even if you're starting at 3-4 am. If you can only get the fronts done and no playgrounds that's what you'll need to do. The principal and caretakers aren't going to care what the contract reads, they want the school clean. 15 schools with 1 or 2 high schools would be 4 trucks for me with a salt truck chasing. You could put the tractor in and take 2 trucks out but if the tractor goes down you'll have a lot of slack to pick up.

Are you pricing per plow and salt?
They want a lump sum for all 15 schools or each school priced separately?
Your insurance is very cheap.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

You have 14 man hours to plow and hoping to bill 3800-4300? 
That would be a dream here in York Region.
I couldn't plow 15 schools in 14 hours if we're doing the whole school.


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## Allcare (Aug 29, 2020)

cet said:


> You have 14 man hours to plow and hoping to bill 3800-4300?
> That would be a dream here in York Region.
> I couldn't plow 15 schools in 14 hours if we're doing the whole school.


Well thats why i asked for quote help. I figure 10 hrs of plowing and 4 hrs worth of driving. I would love to charge less and almost guarantee i get this contract but if we have a lean winter like 14/15 &15/16 i would lose my shirt. What would be your ball park for time to plow and costs per push?

I plow 3 lots between 54000-61000 sq ft. Takes me 35-45 mins per lot on a 4" snowfall with an f250 and 9'6 v blade. From everything I've read tractors plow lots in 2-2.5x the speed. 10 out of the 15 schools are within 7km. The furthest ones would be done by trucks to reduce travel time.

It helps me that employees are family and have invested interest. Less screwing around taking their time.


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## Allcare (Aug 29, 2020)

cet said:


> How many of the 15 schools are High schools?
> You'll want to plow everything even if you're starting at 3-4 am. If you can only get the fronts done and no playgrounds that's what you'll need to do. The principal and caretakers aren't going to care what the contract reads, they want the school clean. 15 schools with 1 or 2 high schools would be 4 trucks for me with a salt truck chasing. You could put the tractor in and take 2 trucks out but if the tractor goes down you'll have a lot of slack to pick up.
> 
> Are you pricing per plow and salt?
> ...


 Saw this one last. This reply is very helpful. I appreciate it. We were told just one pass around back for the playground tarmac. No shoveling. Per push. If the trigger of 2" doesn't hit by 2am it doesn't have to be done by 7am. Thats just the increase for a tractor. We currently pay $2700 a month. So it would be 3 trucks and a tractor. 2 trucks have 2.5 & 3 yard salters.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

A typical school that we used to do was 1.5 hours for the entire school. A high school would be close to 3 hours. We had one contract where they wanted a price for the main area of the school and a separate price for the playground. The main area could be done in 45 minutes and a truck would do 5 schools. If one was a high school the truck would do the high school and 2 more schools. My contract read enough equipment to have everything done in 4 hours. If your start time is 2am and you have until 7:30 than you have 5.5 hours. You should be able to do everything with 3 trucks and 1 truck sating. There's no way I would pay $13,500 for a tractor rental plus fuel and a driver. 16 nights plowing at 5 hours per night is 80 hours. Hire a to notch broker and pay him $110/hr and you're under 9k. Are you paying $275/tonne for salt? That's high for this area and I also think you fuel estimate is high too. I will say it's hard to make good money on 15 schools, I used to do 34. Full plow at all schools, 10 trucks plowing and 3 salt trucks with 5 yard salters. I had a Cat 906H2 loader and there had to be more than 4" of snow before it would make much of a difference. Schools are to small for big iron to shine.


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## Allcare (Aug 29, 2020)

cet said:


> A typical school that we used to do was 1.5 hours for the entire school. A high school would be close to 3 hours. We had one contract where they wanted a price for the main area of the school and a separate price for the playground. The main area could be done in 45 minutes and a truck would do 5 schools. If one was a high school the truck would do the high school and 2 more schools. My contract read enough equipment to have everything done in 4 hours. If your start time is 2am and you have until 7:30 than you have 5.5 hours. You should be able to do everything with 3 trucks and 1 truck sating. There's no way I would pay $13,500 for a tractor rental plus fuel and a driver. 16 nights plowing at 5 hours per night is 80 hours. Hire a to notch broker and pay him $110/hr and you're under 9k. Are you paying $275/tonne for salt? That's high for this area and I also think you fuel estimate is high too. I will say it's hard to make good money on 15 schools, I used to do 34. Full plow at all schools, 10 trucks plowing and 3 salt trucks with 5 yard salters. I had a Cat 906H2 loader and there had to be more than 4" of snow before it would make much of a difference. Schools are to small for big iron to shine.


No way these 15 schools can be done in 5 man hrs. Again banking on 14 man hrs per push x 16 per season. (Thats without salting). I dont know if its worth it then. We do about $155 an hr right now with all of our current stuff. Thanks for your help. Given me a lot to think about.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Allcare said:


> No way these 15 schools can be done in 5 man hrs. Again banking on 14 man hrs per push x 16 per season. (Thats without salting). I dont know if its worth it then. We do about $155 an hr right now with all of our current stuff. Thanks for your help. Given me a lot to think about.


I don't think I said they can be done in 5 hours. 45 minutes per school is 11.25 hours and that's if none of them are high schools. At $155/hr. that's $1750/plow.
The problem with doing schools is the number of hours you can spend on site. You need to have other work for the trucks to fill your nights.
Our contract read, enough equipment to have everything done in 4 hours. We used to push it to 6 hours. I had a lot of good brokers that always showed up. Some had day jobs and some worked hard in the summer and were only looking for a limited number of hours. I had it good.


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