# Afraid to expand?



## Boyerlandscape (Dec 14, 2013)

Hello all,

Long time reader of the site, first time poster. I'm a landscaper (work for a company) and i have a few small mowing accounts i have on my own as i slowlyyyy start to create my own empire. I've been in the industry for 6 years now. All four seasons, and snow is by far my favorite. Started out shoveling for peanuts, leading my own shoveling crew, skid steer, trucks....now winters mean big money for me. My own commercial contracts, subs, etc. I do 5 small-medium sized commercial lots. From my experience as a lackee to my own operation, i've learned a lot and continue to each time i go out. I come from a town where theres a landscape company on every corner. Competition is tight, however theres those 2 or 3 big name companies with the big shop, big fleet...the dream. I look at one of the large accounts in town, a Shaws along with a whole plaza of businesses all in one lot. They have a 3/4 ton with a sander, and two loaders with boxes. Through being in the field, i got wind they get that place for $120k this year.... Its a whole year away, but i think about potentially going after that place next year. Observe their operation this year, see what i could do better/more efficiently and put in a bid. 

I'm comfortable with what i have now, but bigger is better and the sky is the limit. I own one truck, i hire on subs for the rest of my stuff....why not apply this to a bigger more profitable account? I've been looking at purchasing a larger tractor or older loader...hell even leasing one or two for the season would work in my eyes, and i could still make a killing. Even after fuel, sand/salt, payroll, etc. I could still walk away with 0-40k ish...my question is....for you guys with Walmarts and other big accounts, at what point did you feel comfortable that you could handle it? A whole year away i know, but $$$ and frankly i love snow. Looking forward to what you all have to say.


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## kg26 (Feb 5, 2013)

Good question I personally would like to get my foot in the door with smaller offices. If anyone could help with that I'd be all ears. My opinion If your equipment is up to par with theirs I'd go for it. Subs are cool but no one is going to take care of your baby like you are.


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## Boyerlandscape (Dec 14, 2013)

The smaller stuff is easy...er. I think it would be better to be on one site, rather then running around between a bunch of smaller ones. Subs run their own trucks, own insurance.


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## brianbrich1 (Dec 3, 2010)

The question is if you take on a big place like that it is not always about finding equipment to do it. The real question is do you have the ability financial to pay your bills, subcontractor, lease of equipment, breakdowns, salt and employees if your payments don't come when you think it should? What if that big lot decides to play hardball and dispute or not pay? Can you financially handle that?

When trying to expand don't look at how much equipment you can get for potential customers but rather your financial stability as most times that could be most of your stress in the winter not necessarily getting a location done by 6 am. Over extend yourself and your not growing but just pretending.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Boyerlandscape;1691020 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Long time reader of the site, first time poster. I'm a landscaper (work for a company) and i have a few small mowing accounts i have on my own as i slowlyyyy start to create my own empire. I've been in the industry for 6 years now. All four seasons, and snow is by far my favorite. Started out shoveling for peanuts, leading my own shoveling crew, skid steer, trucks....now winters mean big money for me. My own commercial contracts, subs, etc. I do 5 small-medium sized commercial lots. From my experience as a lackee to my own operation, i've learned a lot and continue to each time i go out. I come from a town where theres a landscape company on every corner. Competition is tight, however theres those 2 or 3 big name companies with the big shop, big fleet...the dream. Careful what you wish for as bigger is not always betterI look at one of the large accounts in town, a Shaws along with a whole plaza of businesses all in one lot. They have a 3/4 ton with a sander, and two loaders with boxes. Through being in the field, i got wind they get that place for $120k this yearIts been my experience that these type of companies are very loyal to their contractors, especially up here in Maine. They do them year after year and usually its not all about price with these companies.. its the dependability/relationship these contractors are offering their clients.... Its a whole year away, but i think about potentially going after that place next year. Observe their operation this year, see what i could do better/more efficiently and put in a bid.
> 
> I'm comfortable with what i have now, but bigger is better careful what you wish forand the sky is the limit. I own one truck, i hire on subs for the rest of my stuff....why not apply this to a bigger more profitable account? I've been looking at purchasing a larger tractor or older loader...hell even leasing one or two for the season would work in my eyes, and i could still make a killing. Even after fuel, sand/salt, payroll, etc. I could still walk away with 0-40k ishhell of a lot of headache for your 0-40...commercial is a TOTALLY different ballgame...my question is....for you guys with Walmarts and other big accounts, at what point did you feel comfortable that you could handle it? A whole year away i know, but $$$ and frankly i love snow. Looking forward to what you all have to say.


..................


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Clearing snow is the easy part....try to develop a route that's profitable and works, not just grow to grow... 
Our main concern is creating a solid structure behind the scene. As I tell customers, "our problem won't be your problem"! Many threads talk about breakdowns and other issues during snowstorms, try to perfect that side of the business. Machines, trucks etc. are easy to get. You'd hate to have a wheel loader sitting at that big box with a flat tire (not realizing the valve stem is a big bore) or frozen batteries because it hadn't snowed it two weeks and temps were -0f. 
Don't worry about mega growth, it's not all it's cracked up to be.


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

Floating the expenses is one of the biggest hurdles, owning a loader is great until you have 3-4 storms a week and you've now had to fill that 100 gallon fuel tank on it how many times.

Fuel, salt, sand, labor, higher insurance coverage, etc. All add up when you want bigger sites


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

The shaws plaza in my area goes for the same money........ minus the one in the front 

Like the others have said the plowing is easy, it's the floating 10-20k for a month before the next billing cycle.


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## G.Landscape (Oct 20, 2011)

not over extending yourself is key. Its easy to go rent a loader or 2 and have then sit on site but when break downs or lazy employees come into the game your client won;t care. they only thing they are going to notice is their lot not being plowed. 

- Where are you getting employees? How are you going to keep them busy/employed/happy between storms.
- What is your backup plan for breakdowns?
- How are you going to prove to these clients you can handle it....references. (Saying you have been plowing driveways for 10 years is not a reference for a 6 acre parking lot)
- Money.....as many other mentioned you need to have financial backing to cover a few months expenses before their payments come in. 

I have seen a few companies around town make the jump from small companies to trying to manage huge plazas and malls and let me tell you they become the talk of the community, and not for good reasons.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

I would pursue the jobs that are easy money. The places with fewest headaches, like cars, rocks, no place to pile snow, heavy traffic roads out front, and like that..doing multiple entrances during the morning or evening commute rush is like playing frogger with the truck.


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## agurdo17 (Sep 15, 2011)

Im kinda sitting in the same situation as you are except maybe a little bit further in. I am running two trucks and service 44 accounts, 7 lots for winter and 45 lawns in the summer. Want to take the dive in but my biggest concern is having to hire a real full time long term guy for my business. Part time help makes big time headaches. Real question is what someone like that has to make an hr. Or what to pay salary for the the year.


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## G.Landscape (Oct 20, 2011)

agurdo17;1691590 said:


> Im kinda sitting in the same situation as you are except maybe a little bit further in. I am running two trucks and service 44 accounts, 7 lots for winter and 45 lawns in the summer. Want to take the dive in but my biggest concern is having to hire a real full time long term guy for my business. Part time help makes big time headaches. Real question is what someone like that has to make an hr. Or what to pay salary for the the year.


IMO salary really is an attractive way to go for a full time seasonal work where hrs are always a toss up. Comparably you make work longer hours in the summer and less in the winter but the steady paycheck makes for a much more comfortable living. Just base the salary on say 2000 or 2500 hrs and keep track so at the end of the year if they are above those hours they are compensated for that. If they are under.... well taking money away is hard but maybe consider it a bonus if they did good work.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

G.Landscape;1691607 said:


> IMO salary really is an attractive way to go for a full time seasonal work where hrs are always a toss up. Comparably you make work longer hours in the summer and less in the winter but the steady paycheck makes for a much more comfortable living. Just base the salary on say 2000 or 2500 hrs and keep track so at the end of the year if they are above those hours they are compensated for that. If they are under.... well taking money away is hard but maybe consider it a bonus if they did good work.


Not to debate the status of a full time employee, but you can't salary what the government defines as a hourly job. Just pay your first employee a reasonable hourly rate and if he's good give him quarterly bonuses. Not worth a bonus? Then he's not earning his hourly keep. Something that took me too long to learn; get rid of dead weight and keep looking for the right ones.


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## Boyerlandscape (Dec 14, 2013)

Well guys, you've highlighted some things I hadn't even thought of. Seems a good line of credit Is crucial in the field. That said, I'm still very interested in purchasing a wheel loader. I've seen Hough models for very cheap. Breakdowns are expected, but I have a good background in hydraulics from my days crew chief'n jets in the force, and I got plenty of welding friends. Even if I subbed it out to a larger company with operator, would it be worth the time and money into it?


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

I wouldn't even step to something that big and i know i could handle it. Might take a few signature loans here and there to float it.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

You're kidding about the Hough right? There's a reason they're cheap.......


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## ANA Proscapes (Jul 14, 2011)

Bigger definitely is not better. There are many, many, many headaches that come with it. Every one has pointed out a lot of things for you to think about. The 2 main things being cash flow and employees. I can speak from experience that employees always have something better to do than be at work on time or at all. Good employees are hard to find and even harder to keep as there is always greener grass on the other side of the fence. As for the money. Doing small commercials aren't going to cost no where near as much as a large site like you want to take on. The fuel cost alone will kill you if you get a lot of snow storms back to back. One loader not so bad. But if your talking about 2 loaders then you better have some money stashed away. We just did 2 nights of snow removal with 3 loaders and each one burned about $200 per night in fuel. That's $1,200 just for 2 nights. Just to give you some insight on what your gona run in to if you actualy can land this job. But on the other hand if you can land it and do get a newer loader and have a line of credit or a good bank roll then you could do well at it. Good luck with the rest of the winter.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

To give you positive encouragement; Are these large lots cut up? Sometimes you can get away using a skid loader or two on big lots if they aren't monster pushes all to one spot. Maybe a ag tractor. Any decent subs in your area to help support you? Team up with someone that will sell you bulk salt as needed to avoid sitting on that expense....
We've all shared a few thought with you in this thread to help out. Bigger isn't always that bad, otherwise none of us would do it. 
But watch a quad (WI trucks-22-24 ton) show up once or twice a day bringing in salt to refill a bin and then fuel the machines and trucks, pay the bills, then wait for people to pay you. That's been our life lately. 
Read the other thread about the guy who rented a loader & box plus 30 ton salt only to loose the account after one push this season. To some that would put them out of business or at least in a small bind.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Oh to be young! I'm trying to downsize, it's tough in my area. Constant calls for service. Be careful .bigger isn't always better! Provide excellent service and get into the high paying jobs. Don't lower prices one cent for a job, just spinning your wheels and acting like a bank, money in, money out. It's not your gross that matters, it's what you're paying taxes on at the end of the year. If you groan at your accountants office in april, that means your doing ok!


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## agurdo17 (Sep 15, 2011)

leigh;1692708 said:


> Oh to be young! I'm trying to downsize, it's tough in my area. Constant calls for service. Be careful .bigger isn't always better! Provide excellent service and get into the high paying jobs. Don't lower prices one cent for a job, just spinning your wheels and acting like a bank, money in, money out. It's not your gross that matters, it's what you're paying taxes on at the end of the year. If you groan at your accountants office in april, that means your doing ok!


Oh how the truth hurts! This is my first year of really saying ouch lol


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## Boyerlandscape (Dec 14, 2013)

jrs.landscaping;1692141 said:


> You're kidding about the Hough right? There's a reason they're cheap.......


Jrs...should I be? I realize a machine that size for that cheap , well theres a reason. That said, what do you know about them? Clearly after this thread I'm in no rush for that size account, but I have areas for growth next year with multiple lots all on the same street. Pending this thing is dependable, this would be a huge money maker. No hurt feelings. I'm simply ignorant on them. Please do tell your experience with them. It'd be a spring but, have all year to turn wrenched on it for the next winter. I'd be interested in what you and others have to say about them.

As far as the lot...thank you guys. I think I'm years away from that. I just assume, just as I took a dive into commercial to rid myself of all the residential customers to a few commercials, there's slit more then you think. Experience helps, but as the old saying goes, no one knows more about machinery then a guy with one arm.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Just go around to any lot and see how many of them are staged. The older loaders especially the rear steers aren't much fun to plow with. As an operator I wouldn't run one for any period of time, their slow, uncomfortable and unreliable......


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

They're cheap because they haven't been made in decades. For what you'll pay for a hough loader you could lease a reliable Cat/John Deere/Komatsu etc. Also, I'd imagine if it breaks down its probably difficult to get parts for. Cheaper isn't always better.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

You buy one you should get an extra one for parts! Great yard machine ,but a reliable front line machine, I don't think so.


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## Boyerlandscape (Dec 14, 2013)

leigh;1693352 said:


> You buy one you should get an extra one for parts! Great yard machine ,but a reliable front line machine, I don't think so.


Ahh but the alure of owning my own machine...


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Boyerlandscape;1693593 said:


> Ahh but the alure of owning my own machine...


You say that until you own one.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Boyerlandscape;1693593 said:


> Ahh but the alure of owning my own machine...


Just remember, Hough rhymes with rough!


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## Omega (Dec 22, 2013)

Ran one as a teenager loading sawdust....never so happy to see the Volvo we got to replace it!


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## Boyerlandscape (Dec 14, 2013)

Omega;1693903 said:


> Ran one as a teenager loading sawdust....never so happy to see the Volvo we got to replace it!


Well see....sometimes I make stupid decisions just cause I can :0


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

If you buy a loader, it needs to be articulated, and it needs to be a currently made make, a familiar name like CAT or Deere, Komatsu, Kawasaki, Volvo...as so on.
Better to spend $25K up front than spend $8K and then have it down when you need it running. Or, just as bad, so slow and miserable to run that it plain takes the abition right out of you.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

Not a bad machine in NH...parts are still out there I would imagine.

http://nh.craigslist.org/hvo/4256680708.html


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Buswell Forest;1695648 said:


> Not a bad machine in NH...parts are still out there I would imagine.
> 
> http://nh.craigslist.org/hvo/4256680708.html


No they're not out there, our Volvo is a 90 and even CB has a hard time finding some of the parts. We had to have a caliper flown in from Illinois. All of those old loaders are good for a backup or yard machine but no way would I rest my reputation or a contract on one.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

I suppose you are right. Parts are out there, but finding them and getting them is the tough part.

I doubt I will ever take on a contract that requires me to drop big numbers on what would certainly be well used equipment. 
But, never say never..


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Nash usually has a lot of old parts but even they're running low.......


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

I would machine my own parts out of beer cans before I ever go to Nash again.


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## Boyerlandscape (Dec 14, 2013)

Buswell Forest;1695983 said:
 

> I would machine my own parts out of beer cans before I ever go to Nash again.


Thanks for that, ill have to check it out!


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Boyerlandscape;1696694 said:


> Thanks for that, ill have to check it out!


Making parts out of beer cans?


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

jrs.landscaping;1696732 said:


> Making parts out of beer cans?


He's from New Hampshire .Those guys are very resourceful.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

Nash is a rip off. Want to pay 3x more for a part not worth buying in the first place? Go there. I gave up long ago. Better off calling a southern equipment wrecking place.
Nash wanted $1200 for a cyl I needed, and I got one shipped to my door for $800 from Alabama.
Ever been there? It's not confidence inspiring.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

My father went there years ago for Franklin parts, I don't think he's been back.


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## Boyerlandscape (Dec 14, 2013)

leigh;1696823 said:


> He's from New Hampshire .Those guys are very resourceful.


I take pride in that quote. You guys look at dependability to much in my eyes sometimes. I'm not clearing airports here. I take my contracts, and the risk management portion if the job very seriously. That said, just because a loader goes doesnt mean your dead in the water. Just means you bring in more trucks to cover. Pile it up n stack it after its fixed.

Side note, nothing up here us ever fixed without a steady supply of beer cans. PBR empowers my mechanical mind.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

You've never plowed a large lot before have you? Dead in the water no, up the creek yes, more trucks are great but what would you use to stack? 16' pusher goes down how many trucks would take to replace that?


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## brianbrich1 (Dec 3, 2010)

jrs.landscaping;1697753 said:


> You've never plowed a large lot before have you? Dead in the water no, up the creek yes, more trucks are great but what would you use to stack? 16' pusher goes down how many trucks would take to replace that?


Iam pretty sure he is saying clear the snow with trucks if the loader goes down. Then push the snow back or stack when it gets repaired after the storm is over.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

I understand what he's saying, if it's snowing 2-3 inches an hour and your loader goes down how long will it take to stack out? We recently purchased another loader for that reason and it replaced 3 trucks plus around six hours of post storm stacking.


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## Boyerlandscape (Dec 14, 2013)

brianbrich1;1697949 said:


> Iam pretty sure he is saying clear the snow with trucks if the loader goes down. Then push the snow back or stack when it gets repaired after the storm is over.


Exactly ^^.

Clear the lot with trucks airport style. Maybe it takes a deem inured longer but oh we'll. once I got 90% clear, I'm on my time to blow/stack the piles. This is how it is done at most major airports.


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## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

blowerman;1691615 said:


> Not to debate the status of a full time employee, but you can't salary what the government defines as a hourly job. Just pay your first employee a reasonable hourly rate and if he's good give him quarterly bonuses. Not worth a bonus? Then he's not earning his hourly keep. Something that took me too long to learn; get rid of dead weight and keep looking for the right ones.


I think this may be a difference between Canada and the US.

My summer helper is paid on a salary basis and my winter shoveller is paid x per event. it's a set amount and you'd be amazed how much he hustles because of it. But legally up here this is a non issue and we can pay staff like this.

I know of a few guys that are and have paid guys on salary for summer landscape / winter snow. I've found with most guys it works very well. They tend to look at it as they get paid x no matter what and if they work faster they essentially make more per hr. It's amazing how much that motivates guys to hustle. Now on the same hand you can't expect a salary guy to work 70hrs every week either unless you're paying him a hell of a lot.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pay them with beer and peanuts


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## ServiceOnSite (Nov 23, 2006)

Im not saying that i know everything or have done everything. You have gotten a lot of advise from alot of smart people here, and you seem hell bent on doing it the way you want. Which is fine. It might work it might not. The only thing i can offer you here is this. In this business of the hardest season and the hard work on the equipment and the hard working people the hardest part is getting paid. You can do everything 110% and still not get paid. You spoke of turning a profit of 40-50k. Can you float the rest?wesport


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## joe2025 (Nov 26, 2010)

When you talk about growing your snow management company the biggest fear I have is that when an event happens I won't be able to get enough guys out to handle all the accounts. I'm sure most of you out there have the same problem. You can get more than enough snow accounts but you don't have the manpower to handle all of them so you count on part time winter help. The problem that I see is that you can't always depend on these guys. They have their own businesses to run that may interfere with your snow accounts. There's no worse feeling that calling some of the guys to give them a heads up about an upcoming event and hearing "I don't think I'll be available because......" I get sick when I hear this because I sit and wonder how the heck I'm going to handle the event down a few guys. 
I guess what I'm trying to get at is forget the equipment, the money, the fact that you want to grow your business, the big question for me is can I get enough dependable manpower to run the equipment to handle the event. To me it's one of the things that sucks about this industry, you can make a lot of money but not enough to keep 30 guys on the payroll for the entire year so you have enough manpower to handle the snow management part of the business. 
If someone has a solution to this I'd love to hear what you do other that to stay awake at night thinking how the heck do I get enough guys to handle the storm. I have large commercial accounts as well as some small accounts and I like having both because if I loose one it doesn't put me out of business. On the other hand I am leaning towards trying to land another larger seasonal commercial account and giving up about 20 of the smaller ones only for the reason that I can handle the larger accounts with less manpower and don't have to loose sleep wondering if I'll have enough manpower to get the job done. It's much easier to get three guys to one larger account that it is to get 8 guys to handle 20 smaller accounts. 
Just my two cents on the subject.


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## pkez111 (Sep 16, 2010)

Ambition is a great thing but be careful. Best point said is the cash flow issues. I know from personal experience because im three years in the business and my rec. are well into the 6 figures. All with in 1 month so we have to wait at least the thirty days to get paid. Can you see yourself cash flowing this account? Another issue is equipment failure, best to have back up equipment. I learned very quickly that relationships keep your business growing. Its not always about the price, its about building a good relationship with all your property managers and you will see yourself thrive. Lastly, dont think a big account means big money. Good luck!


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