# Western MVP Plus Ultramounts Too Low! Help!



## Nitsua801 (Oct 18, 2013)

Hello all,

Just installed ultramounts on my 2002 Chevy 2500 HD for a MVP Plus 8.5' V Plow from Western; the mounts are ridiculously low with the weight of the plow only giving me about 4 to 5 inches of ground clearance, if that. Checked to make sure that the mounts I have are correct for the vehicle and they are. I'm really hoping I don't have to bulk up the front suspension. Any suggestions? If I do need to bulk up front coil-overs, any suggestions for what I should do? Anything would help. Thanks.

Austin
[email protected]


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

its a chevy and a heavy plow...... search the chevy fourm for ideas

Most crank the T-bars and add timbens


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Which part is 4-5" off the ground?


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## Nitsua801 (Oct 18, 2013)

cet;1654357 said:


> Which part is 4-5" off the ground?


The bottom of the mounts with the weight of the plow...leaves virtually no clearance with the plow on for bumps and such while driving


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Is the plow new or is it from another truck?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Pics would help


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

Nitsua801;1654350 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Just installed ultramounts on my 2002 Chevy 2500 HD for a MVP Plus 8.5' V Plow from Western; the mounts are ridiculously low with the weight of the plow only giving me about 4 to 5 inches of ground clearance, if that. Checked to make sure that the mounts I have are correct for the vehicle and they are. I'm really hoping I don't have to bulk up the front suspension. Any suggestions? If I do need to bulk up front coil-overs, any suggestions for what I should do? Anything would help. Thanks.
> 
> ...


You could do what olddogg suggests or you could do it right.

Yes most crank the t-bars and install Timbrens.
Cranking the t-bars may raise it a inch or 2 but at the same time throws the alignment out of whack and puts extreme stress on the tie rods/ball joints. So then you will be chewing tires up and replacing front end parts half way into the season. 
Timbrens- They DO NOT raise the front end. They only narrow the gap between the bump stop and control arm. So when you hit a bump it may not bottom out with these installed and it may not sag as much but that only means the weight is resting on the Timbrens causing them to always ride the control arm while driving. Stiff ride and premature wear of the Timbrens and or maybe the upper control arm bushings will ensue.

The proper thing to do is lift the front end. Get new keys for the t-bars. 
Get a small lift kit 1 or 2 inch with upper control arms for the front. 
Also get extended shocks or the best option, air shocks on the front.

After this get it professionally aligned and you will be happy you did the above. 
Yes Chevy/GMC have the sag problem with heavy plows but if you properly install the parts I mentioned you will be a happy camper with no sag and far far less front end repairs and tire replacements.

There are those that will say just crank the t-bars "I've done it for years and had no problem. Trust me don't believe them and talk to a front end specialist to understand why. Or talk to a real wrench turner who knows GM truck front ends. Mechanics will love to take your money in the end but I always find it best to prepare before hand as to not have to see the mechanic in the first place. ussmileyflag


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

REAPER;1654371 said:


> You could do what olddogg suggests or you could do it right.
> 
> Yes most crank the t-bars and install Timbrens.
> Cranking the t-bars may raise it a inch or 2 but at the same time throws the alignment out of whack and puts extreme stress on the tie rods/ball joints. So then you will be chewing tires up and replacing front end parts half way into the season.
> ...


As a disclaimer, I haven't own a Chevy/GMC plow truck since the 80's

What Reaper said is good advise.

You'll also want to add some weight to the bed and check the configuration of the plow. Check the western site for truck mount height and the config you need to set the pivot pins at. Best of luck


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

1olddogtwo;1654398 said:


> As a disclaimer, I haven't own a Chevy/GMC plow truck since the 80's
> 
> What Reaper said is good advise.
> 
> You'll also want to add some weight to the bed and check the configuration of the plow. Check the western site for truck mount height and the config you need to set the pivot pins at. Best of luck


early 80s chevy made a truck for heavy plows

I installed a Snow Dog 7.5 even that plow put it one the ground I hate to see a MVP on one

Like every body said jack the front end up or buy a Ford 

Good luck


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

REAPER;1654371 said:


> You could do what olddogg suggests or you could do it right.
> 
> Yes most crank the t-bars and install Timbrens.
> Cranking the t-bars may raise it a inch or 2 but at the same time throws the alignment out of whack and puts extreme stress on the tie rods/ball joints. So then you will be chewing tires up and replacing front end parts half way into the season.
> ...


T bar keys are a waste of money

Exact same as turning the bars up.

What you said above will do nothing different to relieve stress on tie-rods or ball joints.

My advice would be: crank the bars 1.5" add timbrens, and get it aligned.

*State certified in suspension systems, hydraulic brake systems, and gasoline engines*

Also own a 2500HD with diesel and V plow


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

Have you added your ballast at the tailgate yet? Do that before you make any mechanical changes, it will lift your nose back up a ways by itself...


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

Diesel Dan;1663982 said:


> T bar keys are a waste of money
> 
> Exact same as turning the bars up.
> 
> ...


Glad you're not my mechanic.


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## 1-855-200-PLOW (Nov 3, 2013)

If you take a torsion bar that is laying on a bench and paint a line straight down the length of the bar and then install it you might see that line twist a quarter turn once the weight of the truck is placed on it. That would be the amount of tension on that bar, you can't change the amount of tension unless you add more or take away weight on the suspension.
Changing the keys only changes the clocking of the bar and the lower control arm, not the amount of tension it carries.
Quoted


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## DuramaxLML-42 (Jan 8, 2011)

1olddogtwo;1654354 said:


> its a chevy and a heavy plow...... search the chevy fourm for ideas
> 
> Most crank the T-bars and add timbens


Thats funny you say that... I remember my chevy holding your old 1100lbs mvp better than your furd??? Hmmm. I guess it was dark out that night. Who knows... lol


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

REAPER;1664143 said:


> Glad you're not my mechanic.


Hes right. It doesn't matter. Keys are a waste of money


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

Keys are for lifting the truck 1-2" without making the ride stiffer by putting more preload on the torsion bar...


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

derekbroerse;1664566 said:


> Keys are for lifting the truck 1-2" without making the ride stiffer by putting more preload on the torsion bar...


Eggsactly!!! 

Hence being the proper way to get the plow up off the ground. Thumbs Up


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

REAPER;1664574 said:


> Eggsactly!!!
> 
> Hence being the proper way to get the plow up off the ground. Thumbs Up


Nah, because you need the extra preload to hold the extra weight. But no matter what you do, you still end up putting more stress on the front end via angles etc. All the more reason I stuck with my solid front axle trucks... the S15 is the only independant and with the tbars turned up a little it still wore the ball joints... part of the game, I guess.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

derekbroerse;1664566 said:


> Keys are for lifting the truck 1-2" without making the ride stiffer by putting more preload on the torsion bar...


Once again keys only turn the bar, EXACTLY the same as adjusting the bolt.

If you bought keys you could have saved some money and bought an 18MM socket.


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## Plow Nuts (Jan 11, 2011)

Being the owner of an 01 2500hd with a pro plus and the ultra mount srt up I sympothize with you. I am also an ase certified gm master tech. I simply turned up my torsion bars to raise the front of the truck 1" and added 750 lbs of ballast at the tailgate. With the plow up the truck sits nice and level. With the plow off and ballast removed she sits nice and level. Prior to the adjustments there were speed bumps I could not clear. I have 125 k on the truck and just replaced the lf inner tie rod end. All other front end parts are original and tight. The key is greasing the front end at every oil change. The ford guys would not know about that because the oe balljoints on ford trucks do not have grease fittings.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Plow Nuts;1664754 said:


> Being the owner of an 01 2500hd with a pro plus and the ultra mount srt up I sympothize with you. I am also an ase certified gm master tech. I simply turned up my torsion bars to raise the front of the truck 1" and added 750 lbs of ballast at the tailgate. With the plow up the truck sits nice and level. With the plow off and ballast removed she sits nice and level. Prior to the adjustments there were speed bumps I could not clear. I have 125 k on the truck and just replaced the lf inner tie rod end. All other front end parts are original and tight. The key is greasing the front end at every oil change. The ford guys would not know about that because the oe balljoints on ford trucks do not have grease fittings.


Well my ball joints has grease fittings I'm so glad I drive a ford I didn't have to jack my front end up to carry a snowplow 
:laughing:


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## IA snoman (Aug 31, 2003)

DuramaxLML-42;1664262 said:


> Thats funny you say that... I remember my chevy holding your old 1100lbs mvp better than your furd??? Hmmm. I guess it was dark out that night. Who knows... lol


Hey Duramax I saw you have a 2013 CC diesel with a ultramount on it. Did you have to do any cutting of your airdam or bumper for the mount? I just bought the same truck and in the process of putting a plow on it. could you possibly post some pics of the bumper and mount?


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## Plow Nuts (Jan 11, 2011)

Antlerart06;1664770 said:


> Well my ball joints has grease fittings I'm so glad I drive a ford I didn't have to jack my front end up to carry a snowplow
> :laughing:


I will take the ride quality of my jacked up front end gm truck over the ford trucks any day and twice on sunday :laughing::salute:


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Thumbs Up

Getting back on topic... Ford vs. chevy..... 

Timbrens on Chevy typically the truck will SIT on the timbrens and yes, this causes the truck to be basically pre-loaded in height. It also gives the plow instant resistance when lifting and a firm base helps stack higher. Timbrens are a must!

Torsion torque will lift the truck 1-2" and it will not kill a front end any more than leaving it the crappy factory height and still plowing. My 97 chevy went 10 years heavy use no front end damage. My 07 is year 5 heavy use and has the 07/08 inner tie rode issue now.

Torsion Keys are designed to give it even more lift but then you are messing with other components in the front end and causing potential binding issues.

Ballast in the back end will help offset the plow lift.

Here is the key for the concern of the clearance..... When the plow is resting on the ground how much clearance do you have vs. when the plow is lifted?


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

The load carried by the t-bars is exactly equal to the weight on the wheel, regardless of ride height. Adjusting the ride height with the factory keys, using lift keys, or installing new upper control arms will not change this. There is no way to "preload" the torsion bars with additional force.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

2COR517;1665990 said:


> The load carried by the t-bars is exactly equal to the weight on the wheel, regardless of ride height. Adjusting the ride height with the factory keys, using lift keys, or installing new upper control arms will not change this. There is no way to "preload" the torsion bars with additional force.


 Thumbs Up


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## JCByrd24 (Oct 19, 2005)

To even up the number of correct posts with the number of incorrect ones.... don't buy torsion keys unless your stock bolts won't get you to the correct suspension height (or a little above if you dare). Keys only do the same thing as the stock adjuster bolts, clock the bar and set ride height. Some GMs do come at the low end or lower from the factory or may sit low with your pushplates on or after years of service. Z-height is what GM refers to the spec as and it's the distance from the lowest point on the knuckle to the center of the lower control arm bolt(s). It should be 4.2-4.8" according to GM. CV angles go bad and down travel goes quickly towards zero going taller.

As for my advice. With empty truck crank torsion adjusting bolts to 5" z-height then load as much weight as you can fit behind the wheel wheels/on trailer hitch.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

I would disagree.

If the front raises up due to the t-bars being tightened then there must be more force applied in order to carry that action out. Weight technically may be the same but the force applied is not. :salute:



2COR517;1665990 said:


> The load carried by the t-bars is exactly equal to the weight on the wheel, regardless of ride height. Adjusting the ride height with the factory keys, using lift keys, or installing new upper control arms will not change this. There is no way to "preload" the torsion bars with additional force.


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## JCByrd24 (Oct 19, 2005)

ScottL a t-bar is just a spring. By "tightening" the t-bar adjuster or installing keys you are just putting the spring in a different location, you are not changing the spring or the force. This would be equivalent to coil spacers or rear lift blocks. Both of which change the height but not the load in the spring. 2COR517 is exactly right, the force seen by the spring is proportional to the weight being carried. Only adding the plow will add more "force". Changing the starting position will offset that with regard to ride height. The only exception is if you crank enough that you are against the bump stops with the weight of the truck on the ground, and then add the plow.

One of the basics of physics is that "extra force" causes acceleration. Since this is a static (not moving) condition, the forces must balance, so again, the force seen by the spring is directly related to the weight being carried at each wheel.

If this doesn't make sense let me know and I will try again. I'm a licensed engineer who also likes to play with trucks, I'm confident I'm correct and hopefully can help you understand.

I will add the the minor change in LCA angle will minorly change the load in the bar, but it will actually reduce it. (As proof, imagine cranking until the LCA was vertical from the frame down, which is obviously not possible, but at that point the force would go directly from the balljoint into the frame, with no spring involved. This effect starts as soon as the LCA is off horizontal, but doesn't become significant until its at an angle of probably 20 degrees or more).


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Solid axle sounds as much easier in life.


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## JCByrd24 (Oct 19, 2005)

1olddogtwo;1666479 said:


> Solid axle sounds as much easier in life.


TRUTH! I wish my K1500 had a solid D44 in it from the factory!


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Torsion bar's work on torque or twist. There is no magical float point or use unless you put force on the twist part. Force and weight are two different things. Not sure how your drawing conclusion of force to acceleration on the front end of a vehicle. But heck maybe your driving backwards Thumbs Up I'm plenty familiar with the math involved and applications. Let's just choose to end this because even the most basic of observations ( twist torsion, truck rises or lowers ) doesn't seem fair.



JCByrd24;1666474 said:


> ScottL a t-bar is just a spring. By "tightening" the t-bar adjuster or installing keys you are just putting the spring in a different location, you are not changing the spring or the force. This would be equivalent to coil spacers or rear lift blocks. Both of which change the height but not the load in the spring. 2COR517 is exactly right, the force seen by the spring is proportional to the weight being carried. Only adding the plow will add more "force". Changing the starting position will offset that with regard to ride height. The only exception is if you crank enough that you are against the bump stops with the weight of the truck on the ground, and then add the plow.
> 
> One of the basics of physics is that "extra force" causes acceleration. Since this is a static (not moving) condition, the forces must balance, so again, the force seen by the spring is directly related to the weight being carried at each wheel.
> 
> ...


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## bandy23 (Oct 1, 2013)

Nitsua801;1654350 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Just installed ultramounts on my 2002 Chevy 2500 HD for a MVP Plus 8.5' V Plow from Western; the mounts are ridiculously low with the weight of the plow only giving me about 4 to 5 inches of ground clearance, if that. Checked to make sure that the mounts I have are correct for the vehicle and they are. I'm really hoping I don't have to bulk up the front suspension. Any suggestions? If I do need to bulk up front coil-overs, any suggestions for what I should do? Anything would help. Thanks.
> 
> ...


if you have torson bar crank it


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## JCByrd24 (Oct 19, 2005)

scottL;1666672 said:


> Torsion bar's work on torque or twist. There is no magical float point or use unless you put force on the twist part. Force and weight are two different things. Not sure how your drawing conclusion of force to acceleration on the front end of a vehicle. But heck maybe your driving backwards Thumbs Up I'm plenty familiar with the math involved and applications. Let's just choose to end this because even the most basic of observations ( twist torsion, truck rises or lowers ) doesn't seem fair.


You are right, there are no magic float points, what are you talking about, driving backwards? I'm guessing you haven't taken physics, otherwise you would know that force relates to acceleration in one of the most fundamental laws of physics, F=MA. Additionally, weight actually is a force, but it's not the same as mass.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/mass-weight-d_589.html

I will try another example:
A forklift holds a box that weighs 1000lb, it lifts it 3ft, and then stops. The box still weighs 1000lb and the forklift is still only applying 1000lbs of force to the box. The forklift applied a force greater than 1000lb for a milli second as the box accelerated from a stop and then the forklift applied less that 1000lb for a milli second as it decelerated back to a stop.

This is the same as turning the adjusters with the weight of the vehicle on the ground, a brief unbalance in force resulting in the change of position, but in the end, the load in the bar (torque it is seeing) is basically equal to the weight on tire times the horizontal distance from the center of the contact patch of the tire to the center of the bar (neither of which change when adjusting bolts or installing keys). Because the amount of twist in the bar is related to the torque, it will be twisted the same amount before and after the keys or adjustment bolt change. The fixed end of the bar has changed it's position though, and thus the final position at the LCA end is also changed, thus changing ride height. Simple as that, keys and adjusters change bar position and ride height. Torque in bar is related to weight.

This is confused by the fact that the bolts are almost always adjusted with the weight off the vehicle and the bars limited from completely unwinding by the droop stops or shocks. In this position you are adding force to the adjusting bolt and increasing torque in the bar, because it can't twist. This seems like it's "preloading" the bar, but it's really not, because you're not riding down the road on the droop stops.


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## #1 plowtech (Dec 8, 2001)

Ok then..........................

Who's ready for a beer!


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

JCByrd24;1666474 said:


> ScottL a t-bar is just a spring. By "tightening" the t-bar adjuster or installing keys you are just putting the spring in a different location, you are not changing the spring or the force. This would be equivalent to coil spacers or rear lift blocks. Both of which change the height but not the load in the spring.


One of the best explanations we've had around here in a while. Thank you.



JCByrd24;1666474 said:


> I will add the the minor change in LCA angle will minorly change the load in the bar, but it will actually reduce it. (As proof, imagine cranking until the LCA was vertical from the frame down, which is obviously not possible, but at that point the force would go directly from the balljoint into the frame, with no spring involved. This effect starts as soon as the LCA is off horizontal, but doesn't become significant until its at an angle of probably 20 degrees or more).


These guys aren't ready for right angle trigonometry.....


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Plow Nuts;1664855 said:


> I will take the ride quality of my jacked up front end gm truck over the ford trucks any day and twice on sunday :laughing::salute:


Well I rather take my rough ride Ford truck I know it will hold anything I put in it or on it with out aftermarket help.
I use drive GM products back in 80s when they made a truck 
Once they went to that twin I beam crap I went to Ford. Never look back.
I buy work trucks not a Sunday driver


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Antlerart06;1667768 said:


> Well I rather take my rough ride Ford truck I know it will hold anything I put in it or on it with out aftermarket help.
> I use drive GM products back in 80s when they made a truck
> Once they went to that twin I beam crap I went to Ford. Never look back.
> I buy work trucks not a Sunday driver


I hate to be the one to tell you this, but twin I Beam was Henry's train wreck of a frontend design. For 2wd trucks and vans......


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

2COR517;1667773 said:


> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but twin I Beam was Henry's train wreck of a frontend design. For 2wd trucks and vans......


Yes I know I never bought them either forgot Gm had the Torsion Bars not Twin I beam

I like Solid front ends for work trucks


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

Don't have to grease ford ball joints because you replace them so often... 

Just did them on our F450.... man that was rough


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

Plow Nuts;1664855 said:


> I will take the ride quality of my jacked up front end gm truck over the ford trucks any day and twice on sunday :laughing::salute:


HEARD DAT!!! I had a ford that would just bout make you piss blood every time you drove it. I have the timberens on my chevy front and rear. Why not have the best of both worlds? Sunday driver and when its time to work, the timberens are there.......... I wouldn't have it any other way.

I have the ford chevy battle between one of my employees all the time. Not sure why he still argues though. Hes been with me for 3 years. He bragged on the fords so much he kinda talked me into one to try it. in those 3 years our gass chevys have never failed to get him to our 80+ lawns per week but he called me on numerous occasions broke down in the ford. You would think he would convert. guess you cant fix stupid......... LOL JOKE JOKE don't kill me ford guys!!!

Ps that was the WORK TRUCK that would make you piss blood. It had more miles on the back of a rollback than driving when I owned it.


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## 04hd (Jan 3, 2013)

I have 800lbs of tractor weights behind rear wheels (ballast) snow blower and how ever much salt I take with. The weights alone make a huge difference. I also have timbrens my truck drops about an inch and a half. I have an 8.5mvp with wings(which add 70lbs... I'm guessing) I plow 97% of the time in 2wd. I did nothing with my t-bars.


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## Plow Nuts (Jan 11, 2011)

The arguments between ford and chevy will last beyond our lifetimes. It is a matter of preference. I personally like the engine designs and durability track records of the gm ls motors and deisels as compared to the ford or chrysler products. Ford has a ways to go wiyh the mod motors to get them to be as durable as tje gm ls gas motors. For every 1 gm gas motor with an issue I can come up with 5 ford or 10 chrysler motors with issues. I really wish ford would ho back to pushrod motors. You could not kill a 302, 351, or 460 from 87 on up. Gm had some junk out there as far as anemic engines from 87 to 99. Gms ls motors and 4l80e/allison transmission combos are really hard to beat. Ford has a much better platform as far as commercial truck options/combinations. Gm is also better as farcas warranty. I was at a gord dealer for eork the other day a noticed a new f350 on the lift. 70 miles on it and the trans was beat. Ford wanted the tech to teardown the trans and repair it. Some of the parts needed for the trans were on back order so the poor guy who bought and had the truck for 3 days was going to be out of the truck for 2-3 weeks. The guy said he did not want the truck if they would not replace the entire trans. The ford rep told me his hands were tied. Gm would have throw a new trans in it and been done with it to keep the customer happy. Btw I am the guy in my region who signs off on that stuff for gm. 


Back on topic. 

Crank up your torsion bars and 1000 lbs ballast. Np after that


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## jim5x5 (Dec 9, 2007)

I have a 2013 F350 CC SB 6.7 ford and my western v plow sits super low on it compared to on my 2001 2500 Ram. Was thinking about doing a1-2 inch lift on the ford this summer.


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## bigmackmiller (Nov 15, 2011)

1000lbs in the bed, timbrens up front, leave the t-bars alone, make sure your mount is as high as it can go, go plow


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

bigmackmiller;1702693 said:


> 1000lbs in the bed, timbrens up front, leave the t-bars alone, make sure your mount is as high as it can go, go plow


I'd go just a turn or two on the T-bars, it'll keep the truck off the timbrens slightly when the plow isn't on, softening the ride a little.

OR he could swap in the stock jouncers in the spring.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

bigmackmiller;1702693 said:


> 1000lbs in the bed, timbrens up front, leave the t-bars alone,* make sure your mount is as high as it can go,* go plow


Mount height should be set as recommended by the manufacturer to ensure good scraping and best cutting edge wear.


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