# Going over the person your subbing for....



## wilsonsground (Jun 29, 2012)

I know I'm not the only one in this situation, nor will i be the last. I have somebody that I've been salting 2 lots for him this year. Not once has he paid my bill in full when I hand it to him, hes always been atleast $500-$1000 behind with me this year, finally I got sick of it and told him that I'm not doing anything until hes paid current. Hes told me these 2 accounts salt is only included with a plow, if its just an ice even or a dusting that needs salting then these are 'extras'. I can only know what I'm told, so in this case we've had a lot of 'extras' but I'm not seeing any of this money, and I'm getting pissed. He'll give me a little bit and expect I'll keep going, but i told him not til the balance is brought to ZERO.

So I found out my father does the electrical work at 1 of the properties and he gave me the owners contact information. The guy I'm subbing for said he doesn't like confrontation and that the owner of 1 of these properties hasn't paid him since the beginning of January. Which I find to be BS, if you're not paid that long you'd be doing something about it whether you don't like confrontation or not IMO. Well i gave him a week to get me answers or I'm calling the owner. Well needless to say I'm not afraid of confrontation when it comes to my money with my business, so I called the owner, left a message last Friday, found out he was on vacation so i called again yesterday and he spoke to me. The owners telling me everything's been paid, he even went to his secretary while on the phone with me and she read out the dates of bills paid to this guy this year. The last check was mailed out February 4th. I believe the owner over the guy I'm subbing for at this point in time, and my father said hes never once had to chase his money. The owner of the property even told me to call him next Monday and he would tell me the exact amount mailed out on this current bill, and I didn't even ask him for that! i feel the owner is being up front with me and the guy I'm doing the work for is trying to BS me! not to mention the owner of the property said he's gotten a complaint from this guy EVERY STORM! 

How many of you guys have gone above and called the owner of the property about your money and the situation at hand? I'm sure I'm not the only one, and whether or not its right or not, to me its right. Why let somebody try and take advantage of me. just because hes in his 40s and i'm in my mid 20's i think he thinks i wouldn't do some of what I've done. I haven't seen money since early January and, although its small to some of you he owes me just under $2500, and when i'm the one purchasing and paying for the salt, ya hes got all my profit and I'm tired of it!

Sorry for the rant!


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Did the guy your subbing for messed up.
His contract with you should have had a non-compete clause. 
This usually stops you from contacting then for x amount of time

If not then go for it, taking over the account.

The property owner is not responsible for your money or paying you as he didn't hire you and he doesn't belong in the agreement between you and who you work for.


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

You did the right thing. We actually had a client withold money from the guy we were subbing from until we got paid. Get it by any nonviolent means necessary, you earned it


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

His doing so could have changed the relationship between business owner and contractor to one of employer, employee.

thus changing, taxes, S.S. workman's comp and INS requirements



alldayrj;1771308 said:


> You did the right thing. We actually had a client withold money from the guy we were subbing from until we got paid. Get it by any nonviolent means necessary, you earned it


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## gtmustang00 (Feb 23, 2010)

Make this a lesson learned..don't sub for anyone! I've learned my lesson.


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## Urdum2 (Dec 31, 2008)

I would call your grandmother, parents, siblings, anybody I could just to spread the word.... Advertising costs .....but most business have a 30 days to pay most accounts they owe for .... Past 30 days then stsrt advertising...


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

More then likely ,its robbing Peter to pay Paul. Just because this guy sends in the money right away doesn't mean everyone else is. So he might be paying other bills fist before he gets to you,Yes I know, he got paid right away so should you from that account.


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## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

wilsonsground;1771287 said:


> How many of you guys have gone above and called the owner of the property about your money and the situation at hand? I'm sure I'm not the only one, and whether or not its right or not, to me its right. Why let somebody try and take advantage of me. just because hes in his 40s and i'm in my mid 20's i think he thinks i wouldn't do some of what I've done. I haven't seen money since early January and, although its small to some of you he owes me just under $2500, and when i'm the one purchasing and paying for the salt, ya hes got all my profit and I'm tired of it!
> 
> Sorry for the rant!


You did the right thing by contacting the property owner. There is unethical about that at all.

It is quite common in the construction industry for subs to contact the owner when the GC stiffs everybody. Sometimes it's in person or over the phone. Sometimes it's in the form of a "Notice of Intent to File Lien" that gets sent to the property owner.


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## wilsonsground (Jun 29, 2012)

thanks guys. i know in his case its a peter robbed paul kinda deal. the owners been real good to me so far asking what i'm owed, even trying to get me to do the push backs at the property again, but i said that's not happening unless your paying me directly. Hes asking me for prices for landscaping and plowing next year as of now, contacted me tonight to ask what im currently owed and when his check is going out. i know he doesnt have to deal with me at all and i told him that, his response was 'i have nothing to hide, i pay my bills and i want the guys in line to be paid as well. being honest and up front with the guys doing work for me goes a long way.' i told him i apprecaite his honesty and being up front with me. tonight he said he doenst think the guy will not plow, but his lack to be there on time and lack of paying his guys is going to affect things. also the shovelers of this property didnt show up the last couple storms, wonder why! haha

ive learned my lesson about subbing, the guys that say you'll get paid are the ones to watch i guess.


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## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

Here are a few subs with similar problems:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/lbg/4345945057.html


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

Well the silver lining is you may pick up a few accounts with the owner and make more than you would as a sub. 

I've yet to do any sub work, but have had a couple times payments get delayed. I always go right to the source, and never thought to feel bad skipping everyone else. If they cut the check, then that's who I call.


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## wilsonsground (Jun 29, 2012)

MK97;1771755 said:


> Well the silver lining is you may pick up a few accounts with the owner and make more than you would as a sub.
> 
> I've yet to do any sub work, but have had a couple times payments get delayed. I always go right to the source, and never thought to feel bad skipping everyone else. If they cut the check, then that's who I call.


At this point in time I don't feel bad for the person I'm subbing for. He screwed him self over from day 1 by having to pay someone else to plow his lots because he was procrastinating(well really didn't have any money) to fix his truck and get his truck and plow back on the road. So right from the start he was paying out the ass having someone cover for him last minute paying them by the hour and trying to coup some money to get his **** together. And now its catching up with him.

This is my first time subbing like this and I'm all set with it. The headache is't worth the money at this point. I don'd do well with somebody telling me they haven't been paid since Decembers bill from this 1 location, and then when i talk to the owner he reads off the dates. If you know I'm going to call and ask questions don't you think you should stop lying to me? I was even offered the check numbers and dates as proof but said that's alright for right now.

He's only digging his grave deeper. Bad news travels faster than good news and when myself and my father are pretty well known in this town it wont take long to bad news to travel if I'm asked questions. I wont slander somebody, but I also wont deny things if people ask. Oh well life's a circle of these crooks and they always fail, it only takes time! Prime example of bringing down the industry and prices, you get what you pay for!


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

It's hard to find a decent contractor now a days to sub for with out either, A getting any decent subbing rates off of there work, or B even getting paid or paid on time. Not being ignorant I know what it's like being in buisiness but you got to watch out for your self, but if you do find a decent contractor to sub off that can be a blessing also.


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## wilsonsground (Jun 29, 2012)

94gt331;1771829 said:


> It's hard to find a decent contractor now a days to sub for with out either, A getting any decent subbing rates off of there work, or B even getting paid or paid on time. Not being ignorant I know what it's like being in buisiness but you got to watch out for your self, but if you do find a decent contractor to sub off that can be a blessing also.


I agree with you. There are definitely guys out there that do pay on time, or will tell you when I get my money you'll get paid and they hold to that, and then theirs others that say it but never pay, or talk you down on price because they under bid. But yes at the end of the day its my business, wife and kid that I need to protect.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

wilsonsground;1771838 said:


> I agree with you. There are definitely guys out there that do pay on time, or will tell you when I get my money you'll get paid and they hold to that, and then theirs others that say it but never pay, or talk you down on price because they under bid. But yes at the end of the day its my business, wife and kid that I need to protect.


I work for someone like that. He always keeps me up to date. Even offers to pay me some out of his pocket if it takes longer than expected.


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## blazer2plower (Nov 19, 2011)

The guy I sub for is great at paying me. I bill him out after each event. And I get a check in two weeks. But if I don't get him the bill within 48hrs after the event I don't get payed. That also go's for his employees as well.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

wilsonsground;1771725 said:


> thanks guys. i know in his case its a peter robbed paul kinda deal. the owners been real good to me so far asking what i'm owed, even trying to get me to do the push backs at the property again, but i said that's not happening unless your paying me directly. Hes asking me for prices for landscaping and plowing next year as of now, contacted me tonight to ask what im currently owed and when his check is going out. i know he doesnt have to deal with me at all and i told him that, his response was 'i have nothing to hide, i pay my bills and i want the guys in line to be paid as well. being honest and up front with the guys doing work for me goes a long way.' i told him i apprecaite his honesty and being up front with me. tonight he said he doenst think the guy will not plow, but his lack to be there on time and lack of paying his guys is going to affect things. also the shovelers of this property didnt show up the last couple storms, wonder why! haha
> 
> ive learned my lesson about subbing, the guys that say you'll get paid are the ones to watch i guess.


You did the right thing. But after each storm you should get paid in full.
I know when I sub few guys over the years as soon they was done I told them to catch up with me and I'll cut them a check before they go home.
I had one said he could wait till I get paid. I tell them you work today you get paid today that's how I do business.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

blazer2plower;1790191 said:


> The guy I sub for is great at paying me. I bill him out after each event. And I get a check in two weeks. But if I don't get him the bill within 48hrs after the event I don't get payed. That also go's for his employees as well.


Tell us more grandpa about not paying the employees.


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## doyles (Dec 26, 2010)

don't have to tell you anything that hasent been said other that 2500 is a chunk of money no matter who you are


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## CowboysLC_DE (Aug 17, 2013)

Antlerart06;1790199 said:


> You did the right thing. But after each storm you should get paid in full.
> I know when I sub few guys over the years as soon they was done I told them to catch up with me and I'll cut them a check before they go home.
> I had one said he could wait till I get paid. I tell them you work today you get paid today that's how I do business.


This is the guy you wanna sub for because I don't know of anyone who pays as soon as the storm is over. Granted I only know a few guys who sub out work.

Michael


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

CowboysLC_DE;1790241 said:


> This is the guy you wanna sub for because I don't know of anyone who pays as soon as the storm is over. Granted I only know a few guys who sub out work.
> 
> Michael


Thank you

I bill monthly my employees don't wait each month to get paid They get paid each week Subs get paid when day is over or if they calling snow all week I'll wait till end of the week

I don't under stand why a sub has to wait to get his money till the contactor gets his That's just dumb or the company running very low budget cant afford pay his help till he gets paid


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## WilliamOak (Feb 11, 2008)

I've been on both sides. Shortest pay period has been 2 weeks. Longest being net 30


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Antlerart06;1790395 said:


> That's just *dumb* or the company running very low budget *cant afford* pay his help till he gets paid


Same could be said about a sub that relies/needs paid right after every storm...just sayin.



WilliamOak;1790457 said:


> I've been on both sides. Shortest pay period has been 2 weeks. Longest being net 30


Same here(in fact we're still on both sides), but I'll say 1 week - 30days...depends on who & what we're talking about.

BTW, I have a couple accounts that take 45-60days, but my subs don't wait that long.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

snocrete;1791048 said:


> Same could be said about a sub that relies/needs paid right after every storm...just sayin.
> I do this its not the sub wanting it.
> Sure I have to wait to get my money from the customer but doesnt mean my employees or subs have to wait.
> Good thing about it is .When I need a sub no problem getting one, everybody wants to work for me. Due to the fact I pay
> ...


I have one that's a 90 day turn around most is 10-15 days turn around I do have 1 that's 60 days this figuring on day my invoice goes out


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Antlerart06;1790395 said:


> Thank you
> 
> I bill monthly my employees don't wait each month to get paid They get paid each week Subs get paid when day is over or if they calling snow all week I'll wait till end of the week
> 
> I don't under stand why a sub has to wait to get his money till the contactor gets his That's just dumb or the company running very low budget cant afford pay his help till he gets paid


Guy i work for used to do that until he got as big as he has. He'll still pay in a timely manner though, sometimes he'll pay two storms at once.

One site he pays out $1000 an hour on subs and we have a dozen or so sites so I can understand why he waits.


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## EliteSnow&Ice (Sep 30, 2008)

I won't hire a sub that can't carry himself for at least 45 days. If he can't than he shouldnt be in business. Your agreement is between you and the contracted, contacting the owner in my mind is a breech of contract. Have you contacted the contracted via certified mail, at least 2 notices. If you hope to see the rest of your money you better do something more than " he said she said" won't hold up in court. You jumped the gun and if I was the contractor you would be fired on the spot and a slow trickle to see the rest of your money.


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## wilsonsground (Jun 29, 2012)

EliteSnow&Ice;1799762 said:


> I won't hire a sub that can't carry himself for at least 45 days. If he can't than he shouldnt be in business. Your agreement is between you and the contracted, contacting the owner in my mind is a breech of contract. Have you contacted the contracted via certified mail, at least 2 notices. If you hope to see the rest of your money you better do something more than " he said she said" won't hold up in court. You jumped the gun and if I was the contractor you would be fired on the spot and a slow trickle to see the rest of your money.


First off you don't know the agreement we had. Second he was 60days out and saying you'll get paid when I get paid. No that wasn't our agreement and when I'm getting bull******* around for that extra month I stop service and do what I need to get my money. I'd go above you too if you weren't paying me. Lastly, fire me all you want. I'd bring your ass to court too, on the terms of you not paying your bills. I would never do 45 days. I want my money on 30 day notes, I set my terms or don't work for you, you don't set my terms, you want me to sub you pay by my terms or find someone else. Doesn't bother me. News that you fire buys because they go after their money travels fast. So go ahead fire me, I'll put leins on you if I needed to. I do work I get my money. I'm not going to let someone try and f me over because they potential bid wrong. Not my problem.

Say I won't last with my attitude all you want. I may be younger but will not let people walk over me when I have every right to go after my money in the way that I need it. And when the guys had 2 trucks repoed I'll certainly go above him because he OBVIOUSLY ISNT PAYING BILLS

My first year doing someone else's salting and my last. Done subbing. I don't need the work that bad to chase after the money.


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## CowboysLC_DE (Aug 17, 2013)

By your response I take it that you still haven't been paid. I'd offer to buy the guy out, otherwise his business will be under within 2 years. Obviously I wouldn't use his name and I'd personally go to each client and let them know what's going on. This is assuming that he does lawn and landscape for these clients also, if he only plows then I'd say screw it and give them my bid for the next season now.

Michael


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## wilsonsground (Jun 29, 2012)

CowboysLC_DE;1799792 said:


> By your response I take it that you still haven't been paid. I'd offer to buy the guy out, otherwise his business will be under within 2 years. Obviously I wouldn't use his name and I'd personally go to each client and let them know what's going on. This is assuming that he does lawn and landscape for these clients also, if he only plows then I'd say screw it and give them my bid for the next season now.
> 
> Michael


I got my money in full. I have passed my bids into the owner. He asked me to bid after hearing what was going on.


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## BIG JIM (Dec 9, 2008)

Just my 2 cents but didn't you check out this "winner" contractor before you started working for him? Cant believe you are the only guy he's done this to.
When I use subs for anything _my_ terms are net 30 but I pretty much pay within 14 days or sooner. If you do not like my terms you do not have to work for me . Nothing personal , no hard feelings , just business . For sure subs don't wait till I get paid for their money . Employees get paid _every_ week . I am the last guy to get paid.
I hope that clown didn't have a no compete clause in your contract(if you had one , foolish if you didn't but o.k. this time) because you could be in for some real aggravation .


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

EliteSnow&Ice;1799762 said:


> I won't hire a sub that can't carry himself for at least 45 days. If he can't than he shouldnt be in business. Your agreement is between you and the contracted, contacting the owner in my mind is a breech of contract. Have you contacted the contracted via certified mail, at least 2 notices. If you hope to see the rest of your money you better do something more than " he said she said" won't hold up in court. You jumped the gun and if I was the contractor you would be fired on the spot and a slow trickle to see the rest of your money.


To me even 30 days is to long for paying a sub, 14 days is enough time. You sound like you don't even pay in 45 days. 
Do you give your customers 45 days or more to pay you? My guess is you want to be in business but use your subs money to make it, then pay them if you get paid.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

EliteSnow&Ice;1799762 said:


> I won't hire a sub that can't carry himself for at least 45 days. If he can't than he shouldnt be in business. Your agreement is between you and the contracted, contacting the owner in my mind is a breech of contract. Have you contacted the contracted via certified mail, at least 2 notices. If you hope to see the rest of your money you better do something more than " he said she said" won't hold up in court. You jumped the gun and if I was the contractor you would be fired on the spot and a slow trickle to see the rest of your money.


Really? 45 says to pay someone for one storm? Some subs aren't even "in business" they are merely a sub with a plow truck trying to make extra money or ends meet

So they took off they're regular job to help you and you're going to take 2 months to pay them for one storm? Just how many subs do you have?

The guy I work for pays everyone within 30 days. Some get paid the day after if they need it. If you can't float a subs payment maybe YOU shouldn't be in business??


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