# new customers still shell shocked with dec 09 invoices :p



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Well actually im not laughing... i think many clients shocked at their invoices, are now picking things apart and trying to delay, even a few weeks if possible to pay their invoices.

Mostly new client, that was their first storm so they believe we will invoice them thousands per storm, although we had 18-26" in most parts of central/south jersey december 19th 2009.

I get a letter, mailed around January 15th 2010, Invoice mailed/emailed on Dec 30th 2009, due on 30day net terms. The letter is an "email" format, which i double checked today, we never received this email although our email address is right, i think it was saved as a draft and printed, not ever emailed. The email is dated Monday January 4th 2010.. not sure what the week and a half hold up was from this original dispute but here it goes.

Theyre on a flat per push rate of to 4" $155.00 and $185.00 4-7"... if we push 8", 10" , 14feet, we only get $185.00 per push so we make sure were there on time if possible.

On invoicing, we invoice $185.00 per 4-7" push and put the approximation of inches on site during that visit, crew puts this on their log sheets, its not exact.

We have pushes of 5, 8, 7, 3 & 7 inches, which they say were billing them for 30" and it didnt snow that much. Of course parking lots next to these big buildings, it surely was blowing and so most clients understand this, i think im going to leave off the "per push amount estimation" from now on after this last big storm though.

They claim that the storm ended Late saturday, very early sunday morning which is not correct either, maybe theyre at home sleeping through the day? who knows. 
Theyre refusing to pay for plowing done sunday 12/20/09 because we invoiced for 3:25am and they don't think we received another 10" of snow since 3:25am sunday morning to monday morning, which was when they opened up business and our next visit. there was about 7-8" there, not 10" and it finished finally snowing around 10am-noon time sunday not saturday night or early sunday morning.

If we cleared the lot at noon time after it stopped, they'd still have 4-6" there just from blowing wind all day sunday. Basically theyre frustrated with a big invoice, which is one of our small invoices honestly, and they don't like that there was snow still in the lot monday morning. We could have probably plowed 2-4 times more before monday morning even "through sunday afternoon" , and invoiced them another 2-4 pushes above this invoice.

I knew they were closed, we were backed up and it wasnt a priority since they'd only be in monday morning, not sunday, i saved them money if thats how they want to look at it.

They said monday morning that two employees got stuck in the driveway before we got there, again, about 7-8" worth was what i measured myself onsite at 7am... they open at 6am for some employees so i can understand their gripe over this one. I'm even willing to remove the whole charge for 6:58am that morning just because we should have been there an hour sooner.

Theyre saying, only one lane into the driveway was plowed, not sure what this means yet, its literally less than two lanes wide total.

The receiving door was plowed shut, again, not sure about this because they only have one door they told me about in november that they use, when i was there at 7am.... there was 7-10" around this door, no snow was plowed against it ever. I backdragged it myself.

Loading ramp had to be hand shoveled and salted on monday by "clients" employees due to poor quality... im only assuming after reading this that this same receiving door/loading ramp is the same location, that after i back dragged, that they still had a foot of snow against the door itself they had to push away? So we will hand shovel this in the future.

The public sidewalk was never shoveled....the neighboring business contractor cleared it with a snow blower... Im assuming this is by the street, im sure with the first storm for this client and us, being about two feet, none of our crew knew this front property sidewalk existed. I was only told about the back loading ramp area, side parking lot and front sidewalk to the building. Three areas. Although i have no problem with this extra sidewalk, even included in the price, we were never even told about it until this letter. I probably showed up myself monday morning when it was getting bright out, saw the sidewalk was done and thought nothing of it because "it was done" assuming our crew took care of it. Nice that they inform us about this three weeks+ later. The building is attached to another building and the sidewalk apparently just splits in between, half for one side, half for the other, no problem.

Claims, their tenant hand shoved the sidewalk to the front door on saturday in order to gain entry to the building? why? apparnetly theyre closed saturday too, 

We were there saturday at 3:40am to salt, 11:10am 5" to shovel/plow and again at 6:24pm..... with two feet of snow in about 24hrs, im sure theres going to be snow on the walkway of the closed building during the course of this saturday... This isnt a retail location, they never were a company looking for "2inch" service every time on the dot with salt constantly. They seem to want us there more often in the beginning/end and next day of the storm yet don't like the amount charged basically for "one storm".

They're disputing the 12/24/09 salt application at 7:50am, was slick/refreeze and 85%+ of our properties got salt that morning.... not sure why theyre disputing, maybe because they were closed that xmas eve?

States theyre open monday-Friday each week. Posted hours are 7:00am, but employees arrive at 6:00am... we tried to shoot for 6am intially anyway so we'll work for 4-5am from now on. States they are not open for business saturday and sunday.

they expect a "SIGNIFICANT" revision to our invoice, and unless they request salting, there will be no need to salt seperatly from the salting service included in the plow service price. This i believe "is the owners wife" that wrote the letter from the company. I don't think she realizes that its

$130 per salt app only
$155 per 2-4" push only
$185 per 4-7" push only

if we plow 4" and salt, its $185 PLUS $130.00 as billed. Our contracts are fairly simple and i've been told several times in the past couple years that clients appreciate not having to sort through multiple types of charges, and 30 pages of contract just for snow removal.

On the invoice each month, at the very top, we list their prices per service so they can reference what was charged without having to look up their contract.

How can we put a clause into the invoice and contract so that its VERY clear for clients to understand that salt of $130 is NOT included in a plowing for $155 and $185 ?:realmad:


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

My head hurts.


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

Mine too....and I will never get back the 5 mins of time I lost reading this post......lmao

Guess you weren't clear on the billing process when you got the contract


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## 2brothersyc (Oct 17, 2009)

i might be the only one saying this but it seems threw all your posts that you need more trucks or equipment. this is not to be mean hateful or bashful but it seems that you have to much work for the amount of trucks you have. it seems that you need more trucks plowing or something. again this isn't meant to be hateful just to let you know what i think


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ramair, your post is hard to follow, however I think i get the overall content. WI had a similar storm in early Dec. I have a new client this year that disputed some of my charges as well. On the really big storms it's difficult to do everything the right way as far as timing is concerned, so I feel your pain. I was able to explain all my charges and get paid for all my services, however next years contracts will explain in more detail my intentions on storms over 12". Maybe you should look to specify more clearly as well.


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## ss502gmc (Sep 12, 2008)

In my contracts i have the usual per inch or per push pricing and then i have "blizzard conditions" pricing which is basically a flat rate per 24 hours. Like the blizzard here in mass on 12/20/09 pretty much was a 24 hour event so they paid the "blizzard rate". Which is basically double the price of a 12" snowfall. I also state in my contracts under blizzard conditions that basically in short "its a f-ing blizzard and theres only so much people can do!!! When u got 60mph winds and its piling up the snow faster than u can plow it? Its the way it is and u can only do what you can do. And all my customers understand that. Also i cant dedicate 1 truck to a small lot for 24 hrs to keep it clear.


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## albhb3 (Dec 18, 2007)

tell em to get over it, its almost Feb


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

So if I have this right, they are closed for the weekend and it still needed multiple clearings and saltings? As the owner of that business, I would probably complain also. Why don't you just clear it on Sunday? If I have (which we do) properties that are closed on the weekend, the snow can build up if I feel we need to clear other locations. Then on Sunday (or if we are done everywhere else) we'll come in with the wheel loader and pusher to clear the snow. Perhaps they need a more clear contract to explain what is going to be provided or they should clarifiy that it's not needed a million times on Sat. & Sun.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

blowerman;966702 said:


> So if I have this right, they are closed for the weekend and it still needed multiple clearings and saltings? As the owner of that business, I would probably complain also. Why don't you just clear it on Sunday? If I have (which we do) properties that are closed on the weekend, the snow can build up if I feel we need to clear other locations. Then on Sunday (or if we are done everywhere else) we'll come in with the wheel loader and pusher to clear the snow. Perhaps they need a more clear contract to explain what is going to be provided or they should clarifiy that it's not needed a million times on Sat. & Sun.


 On a large snowfall some of us can't wait and remove it all at once. Needs to be done in chunks if possible. If you have a large loader you have that luxury of waiting.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

I think he has the equipment, but it only snow 20" in NJ on very rare occasions and this customer doesn't understand. DO NOT let them walk all over you, STAND your ground and let them know if there is an issue you MUST be called when the situation is current, not a day a week or a month later.


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## cplmac (Nov 25, 2009)

I had the same problem this year, was my first year with my own accounts and had lots of issues with the accounts thinking I was over charging. So I told them to get a couple of bids from someone else, keeping in mind that we already had a contract just in case. I knew my prices were on the low side because I was trying to do them a favor. Anyhow, couple of weeks later they got their bids back and I haven't heard a peep since. Turns out I was the lowest bid they had. People just fail to realize that we have been getting 30+ hour long events that need to be cleared multiple times per storm.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

lilweeds;966762 said:


> I think he has the equipment, but it only snow 20" in NJ on very rare occasions and this customer doesn't understand. DO NOT let them walk all over you, STAND your ground and let them know if there is an issue you MUST be called when the situation is current, not a day a week or a month later.


yep i have to agree here, the real question though is, would they have had better service if it had been another company, if not then tell them to grow up, pay their bills, or to go somewhere else, but still pay their bills. i found myself in a similar situation where i am, with a good 40cm / 16-19 inches my first snowfall in December, the important part for us, (all headaches aside) is that we were done and caught up on our lots long before most of our competition, which tells me we were better prepared for the unexpected heavy snowfall


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## FordFisherman (Dec 5, 2007)

A contract is a contract. You both signed it and agreed to the terms. If you did what you were required to do per the contract then you should be paid accordingly. Explain to them that if they want to adjust the terms next season they can, but a bill is due for services rendered. They're looking for a discount; don't give it to them. If it doesn't snow the rest of the season can you submit a bill for service you did not provide? Of course not. How can they expect to not pay you for services you provided under the contract? Have your attorney contact them.


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## FordFisherman (Dec 5, 2007)

And as far as "closed for the weekend" is concerned, unless it specifically states that service is modified for weekend storms, it snows, you plow, they pay.


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## ferdinand711 (Oct 25, 2006)

most if not all property managers don't want you to do the service when they're closed. if it storms on Saturday when they're close on the weekend they want you to wait until Sunday night if there is still snow or ice on the property them you can clean it up, I know it sucks but everybody is trying to stretch out their budget.
When it storms in the morning while they're open, they want you to push the snow every 2"-4" but will ask you to throw the salt on your last pass or when the storm is almost done, again to stretch out the budget of having to pay 2-3 Salting on an 8" storm. some of us will disagree because we want to make the most money out of it but I guess that's what we all would do if we are on the other side of the fence.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Go seasonal.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

Ramairfreak98ss;966599 said:


> Theyre on a flat per push rate of to 4" $155.00 and $185.00 4-7"... if we push 8", 10" , 14feet, we only get $185.00 per push so we make sure were there on time if possible.
> 
> We have pushes of 5, 8, 7, 3 & 7 inches, which they say were billing them for 30" and it didnt snow that much. Of course parking lots next to these big buildings, it surely was blowing and so most clients understand this, i think im going to leave off the "per push amount estimation" from now on after this last big storm though. ?:realmad:


That might be your issue.

Yes we are in this to make money but I total invoices for subs all the time who have trucks that seem to run 28 hours in a day and push 6-8 more inches than we got.

Every year I pick up business from contractors who bill based on what they saw on the lot rather than what fell at the airport. Or the national weather service.

Over Christmas we had around 9 inches of snow. I saw a bill from a company for over 15 inches.

I would expect an honest bill. You may believe your customer got it, they do not.

I love when guys in town stick to their guns with customers. Heard today about a plow guy yelling and screaming at a property manager that she was stupid.

Guess what. He lost 40 acres worth of work. Know what else. He was right and She was wrong. Want to know who is talking to every property manager in town?

I bet it felt good to blow off some steam. Would you continue to work with a company that treats you how you treat your customer? It is the question I ask my subs all the time.


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## Precedence (Oct 3, 2008)

Send them this:

http://www.erh.noaa.gov/er/phi/show_wss.php

and this:

http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/snowmonitoring/fema/12-2009-dlysnfl.txt (Scroll down to your state)

Also look around NOAA's website and you should be able to find a detailed climate report for your area.


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## tilawn (Feb 27, 2008)

That is why in my area I charge most accounts this way for example
Upto 3 inches 50
4-6 inches 100
7-9 inches 150 and so on
also chemicals only putdown at near end of storm
and fiinally snow will be cleared 24/7 doesnt matter holiday weekend etc.
oh yeah all measurements are taken by me only at that is stated on my contracts as well

Now if we are getting a 6 in storm throughout the day we will plow with it to keep them opened up. that charge would then be 100 for the storm and I would plow twice for the storm. This way I am getting same price for pushing everytime I get there. Been doing it this way for 15 years in my area and only have had 2 complaints.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

What the heck was that. I got half way through and gave up.I do large contracts on seasonal. No complaints 99 % of the time. Or just do per push and not the increments. It keeps snowing you keep coming back and servicing the lot every 3 or 2 inches.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Silentroo;967080 said:


> That might be your issue.
> 
> Yes we are in this to make money but I total invoices for subs all the time who have trucks that seem to run 28 hours in a day and push 6-8 more inches than we got.
> 
> ...


I base my measurements on news cast, news paper, and most of all amounts from various accounts I do. How the hell can you base it off what fell at the airport? Unless you're plowing the airport.



Precedence;967091 said:


> Send them this:
> 
> http://www.erh.noaa.gov/er/phi/show_wss.php
> 
> ...


One of my customers tried to pull this trick on me this year. Nice try, but it's how much snow fell where I plow. God I hate those reports!!


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## cplmac (Nov 25, 2009)

WIPensFan;967187 said:


> How the hell can you base it off what fell at the airport? Unless you're plowing the airport.


Because generally speaking your local broadcast news will get it's snowfall totals from the regional airport(s), which is where your customer is going to get their snowfall total nine out of ten times.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

cplmac;967333 said:


> Because generally speaking your local broadcast news will get it's snowfall totals from the regional airport(s), which is where your customer is going to get their snowfall total nine out of ten times.


Our local news will say what fell at the airport, but also what fell in surrounding towns, and suburbs. It's never the same amount for everyone.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

cplmac;967333 said:


> Because generally speaking your local broadcast news will get it's snowfall totals from the regional airport(s), which is where your customer is going to get their snowfall total nine out of ten times.


yep, most broadcasters get their totals from weather reporting organizations, and from the local airport, our last snowfall, the airport got 0 inches and 20 blocks away had 2.5inches, and 5 blocks from there, nothing again, the point being that percipatition amounts can vary greatly in short distances, somewhere the line is drawn from percip to no percip, sometimes that falls right in the middle of cites, etc.


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## LawnProLandscapes (Nov 15, 2007)

buckwheat_la;967356 said:


> yep, most broadcasters get their totals from weather reporting organizations, and from the local airport, our last snowfall, the airport got 0 inches and 20 blocks away had 2.5inches, and 5 blocks from there, nothing again, the point being that percipatition amounts can vary greatly in short distances, somewhere the line is drawn from percip to no percip, sometimes that falls right in the middle of cites, etc.


hmm must be out here in the "sticks" our local weather folk actually go out and measure the snow fall themselve :laughing: i dont have an airport within a good hour of highway driving in any direction around me. we have local folk that call in totals for their area. one of the bene's of being in a small area i guess


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

LawnProLandscapes;967398 said:


> hmm must be out here in the "sticks" our local weather folk actually go out and measure the snow fall themselve :laughing: i dont have an airport within a good hour of highway driving in any direction around me. we have local folk that call in totals for their area. one of the bene's of being in a small area i guess


i think you are missing the point, which is that sometimes, even in a local small area, the snow amounts can vary greatly


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## Precedence (Oct 3, 2008)

It doesn't have to be a report from an airport, that's a just government regulated and calibrated weather station so it's the most reliable, you can get reports from all kinds of sources (Weather Underground provides the best catalog of them) look at this map for a sample:

http://www.wunderground.com/wundermap/?lat=40.21931839&lon=-74.76197052&zoom=10

So find the map for your area and then get the report from the nearest station, either that or take pictures everywhere you go.

Environment Canada's reports are much nicer than NOAA's and i have used them to end debates over billing, checkout the monthly:

http://climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/...v=ON&StationID=4716&Year=2009&Month=12&Day=18

and daily breakdown:

http://climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/...v=XX&StationID=4716&Year=2009&Month=12&Day=28


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## Precedence (Oct 3, 2008)

BTW So for everyone that doesn't use third party data to end a dispute with a customer, what exactly do you do then? Because we all know a dispute will happen at some point.


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## LawnProLandscapes (Nov 15, 2007)

buckwheat_la;967408 said:


> i think you are missing the point, which is that sometimes, even in a local small area, the snow amounts can vary greatly


i get the point, we have extremes of that here with towns in the valley compared to 5 mins north on the hills, i just really didnt know most big places relied on the airport for accumulation stats.


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## plowmaster07 (Feb 1, 2009)

Precedence;967415 said:


> BTW So for everyone that doesn't use third party data to end a dispute with a customer, what exactly do you do then? Because we all know a dispute will happen at some point.


Because I do all Residential. I charge by a per trip basics with a 1' max accumulation. If we get up into the 10-12" range it can be a little bit hard figuring out when to do it, whether we are going to get up or over the 1' mark, or just under it. But if the customer complains or questions me, I sometimes will take a few $ off the bill. It keeps them happy, and it keeps me in business.

This past storm NOAA was calling for over 1' at 2:30am. So I went out and did my morning route. Then I get home at 7:30am and they are now calling for about another 1" before the storm is done. There was about 5" for the am route. One customer asked me why I plowed twice, and I simply explained it to him what the forecast was calling for when I left this am, and he was fine with it.

You never know with the weather. I'm not sure how you guys do it for commercial, but that's the way I do it for the residential.

Sorry to hijack this thread.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

Silentroo;967080 said:


> That might be your issue.
> 
> Yes we are in this to make money but I total invoices for subs all the time who have trucks that seem to run 28 hours in a day and push 6-8 more inches than we got.
> 
> ...


Silentroo... I sure agree about not yelling at property managers. You have to prepared to give a little on massive bills to keep the peace -especially with new customers who are not familiar with your billing even though it is spelled out in the contract.

I will DISAGREE however, with the idea that you can go off of the airports numbers. We both know that the metro area is a good 50 mile radius and things can be quite different from one end to the other.

Heck, it can vary greatly just a couple miles away. An eaxample would be that big storm that clipped the south metro on April 1st of 2007... Chaska to Burnsville had 8-10" in about 5 hours -St. Paul is what... 15 miles away tops? They had barely an inch.

Another example, last Year I was heading south on 35w from Forest Lake and took the hwy 97 shortcut to Lino Lakes... it's about an 8-10mile stretch. I went from no snow into a band so heavy that I could not drive over 25 mph. It lasted for about three miles and there were 2-3 inches on the ground by the time I broke through. Lino Lakes had NOTHING. I have seen this happen on that stretch of road before.

Maybe it was nine inches AFTER the last wet mess sat on the previous snow and compressed it. Customers need to know how much was on their lot, which is why we use a tape measure. This gives us more ammo to justify an honest bill. I could care less that the airport said your 10K SF lot had six inches when your 25k SF flat roof warehouse is located northwest of the lot and the winds were from the northwest.


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## lawnproslawncar (Dec 9, 2007)

Stand your ground, don't let them walk over you. I'd offer a "X"% off if they can pay you the total billed within 10 days from the next time you talk to them.

As far as these people complaining, maybe you shouldn't plow for them if they are going to be like this?


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I personally really enjoy it when customers call to complain about invoices, and they have no specific issues, just that its too much money. Well which dates are you disputing? well none, but its just too much. Uh, ok, you did sign a contract agreeing to everything we did.....ugh, people.


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## WMHLC (Jul 31, 2005)

Stand you ground, don't give them a single penny off. I had a customer before that was my biggest customers almost 25% of my business. One month we had record snow and plowed and salted almost everyday. We blasted her budget on that property in one month, so she called and asked for some help, and to see if we could reduce the amount. So I said sure and gave her 10% off. She was happy and said thanks and I won't forget that you helped me out. Come fall the next year, the lady cans us to save 3% on all her properties and called and thanked us for the great service but they want to try somebody different out.

Stand you ground, becasue they do forget and will can you!!!!!!!


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

WMHLC;967712 said:


> Stand you ground, becasue they do forget and will can you!!!!!!!


There used to be loyalty, but there is so much turnover in property managers, decision makers, it doesnt pay to discount money thinking they are going to "like" you for it. they arent going to pay more for a month when it doesnt snow as much.


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## heather lawn spray (Mar 11, 2003)

grandview;967059 said:


> Go seasonal.


Thank-you GV, you beat me to the comment


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

Precedence;967091 said:


> Send them this:
> 
> http://www.erh.noaa.gov/er/phi/show_wss.php
> 
> ...


Good luck getting your client to read that mess.

We service over 50 local townships in chicago and the differences in snow depth all across the suburbs varies from storm to storm. In chicago we have 2 airports, midway and ohare, and we used to get customers trying to compare with the totals of the airports. What we do is, hire a 3rd party weather service that provides storm totals from over 30 locations across the area and include the storm totals with the bill. It is invaluable and is available in most states. They provide many levels of services and we subscribe to their forcasting and storm total service for just the winter season. here is a link to our weather service http://www.weathercommand.com/ that the Illinois department of transportation also uses, among many other high profile agencies.


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## snowman55 (Nov 20, 2007)

even my seasonals have blizzard provisions. we spent almost an entire season worth of labor on sites in the 4 day storm over xmas. over 10" is billable per hr on all seasonal contracts. I saw way to many guys go belly up in 1991 w/o this clause


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## ppandr (Dec 16, 2004)

Everything that we do is based on total accumulations based on the actual amount of snow measured onsite immediately after the conculsion of a snow event. I personally measure myself, take representative pictures, and have NEVER had a issue whereas the customers complain or question the totals. 

Our pricing is based on 0-5, 5-10,10-15 and 15+ with hourly rates if we exceed x amount of hours onsite. Simple...12" is the 12" rate no matter how many times we are there or come back. Salt is based on per application.

As far as the per push scenerio....thats a mess. Way to many variables play into the timing, amounts, snow blowing off buildings, etc for that situation. Cut your losses and give them some discount to make them feel good about themselves and either dump them or reneg a new fixed rate contract.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

cplmac;967333 said:


> Because generally speaking your local broadcast news will get it's snowfall totals from the regional airport(s), which is where your customer is going to get their snowfall total nine out of ten times.


Yeah , a couple guys local, well 25 minutes from me here, got over two feet in Jackson NJ on plowsite. I believe it, one of our crew guys " good friend of mine" drove from there and back home when he was done and said they definitely had more there than in most of burlington county where we plow. NOBODY believed the guys on plowsite stating 24-28" or whatever..

Doesnt matter where the snow comes from, if your plowing it, its there. But i agree, 90% of the time people are hearing snow totals from airports etc that are no where very local to them.

They think that because an airport got 18" that they must have had that OR LESS but if you bill them 19" or more, they flip out.... Parts of trenton got 18+, places at very south burlington/phily area got 24+ and places in the middle got 18-25"


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Longae29;967703 said:


> I personally really enjoy it when customers call to complain about invoices, and they have no specific issues, just that its too much money. Well which dates are you disputing? well none, but its just too much. Uh, ok, you did sign a contract agreeing to everything we did.....ugh, people.


Yeah well the smart clients do get clever...

This company IS closed during the weekend but their contract is ONLY per push 2-4" and 4-7" and we go all weekend at the place.

We ONLY salted once at the beginning and once or twice at the very end.. if we wanted to nickel and dollar them to death, we'd have plowed and salted $130+$155 EVERY two inches.

$3,420+ tax is a far cry from less than 2k eh? just stating the obvious, of course the client acts as though we charged too much, did too much over the weekend and they STILL had to help us somehow.


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

Weather command has an office in pennsylvania. their cost is far less than discounts required due to customer discrepancies.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Longae29;967717 said:


> There used to be loyalty, but there is so much turnover in property managers, decision makers, it doesnt pay to discount money thinking they are going to "like" you for it. they arent going to pay more for a month when it doesnt snow as much.


yep, were only "loyal" to some small places. Last year we had a 6k invoice for a storage complex for feb 09, including march 1st storm which was their final invoice for the 08-09 season. The prop manager, which we were in good standing with, requested that we "combine" our per pushes of $700 to the higher amount of $1100 for like 7-9" or something.

It was $700 x 3 or 4 and he wanted us to knock $1500~ off the bill. We didnt hear back yet "still" from the landscape quote, so i said no way. We still didnt get the landscape quote, some joes went in doing it for peanuts. Re-bid this year, "cheaper" than last year since we knew we could speed up this site now having last year as experience with it already under our belts... bid $650 and $40 less for salt and still got outbid... it shows too. oh well. i would have really kicked myself in the butt if i discounted $1500 to keep faith and keep his favorable opinion of us and then lost all the business anyway.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

snowman55;967758 said:


> even my seasonals have blizzard provisions. we spent almost an entire season worth of labor on sites in the 4 day storm over xmas. over 10" is billable per hr on all seasonal contracts. I saw way to many guys go belly up in 1991 w/o this clause


yep, lots of seasonals in nj "usm ones shhhh", are paid way too little. Plus youll beat yourself up in a big bad storm and never be compensated hardly for it.


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## BMWSTUD25 (Aug 21, 2008)

grandview;967059 said:


> Go seasonal.


HAHA I love it. you get to use it for anything that comes up. I will agree though, I never hear a peep out of my seasonals. If they have snow I plow it, end of story.


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## goatboy1 (Nov 8, 2009)

don't get much snow in the northwest these days but when it does come down its usually heavy and wet and all contractors must do their jobs in relatively few days.If customers then make a fuss over the job(s) like in your case we are SOL.Myself I have taken video and still shots of premises with previous complaints and have even received phone calls where managers asked to apologize for the "confusion" after they had a look at the cd we left at their office.Make sure your truck is in the pic,turn on the high beams but turn off all beacons or strobes (lens will shut down),have something in the shot that identifies the premise,take more then one shot ,when burning your vid or pics make sure to turn on date and time (if you have google pic id ...even better). PIC TELLS A THOUSAND WORDS...period.


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## goatboy1 (Nov 8, 2009)

*(I want my money) or( I want your bussiness)*



Silentroo;967080 said:


> That might be your issue.
> 
> Yes we are in this to make money but I total invoices for subs all the time who have trucks that seem to run 28 hours in a day and push 6-8 more inches than we got.
> 
> ...


After all the pics and vids for proof I have to aggree 100% with your interpretation. Diligence in Bussiness comes first (Customer is always right)...


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## northeastrealty (Nov 9, 2009)

ppandr;967801 said:


> Everything that we do is based on total accumulations based on the actual amount of snow measured onsite immediately after the conculsion of a snow event. I personally measure myself, take representative pictures, and have NEVER had a issue whereas the customers complain or question the totals.
> 
> Our pricing is based on 0-5, 5-10,10-15 and 15+ with hourly rates if we exceed x amount of hours onsite. Simple...12" is the 12" rate no matter how many times we are there or come back. Salt is based on per application.
> As far as the per push scenerio....thats a mess. Way to many variables play into the timing, amounts, snow blowing off buildings, etc for that situation. Cut your losses and give them some discount to make them feel good about themselves and either dump them or reneg a new fixed rate contract.


I have a 1"trigger on all my commercials. Although I always strongly suggest they go seasonal, some choose per storm. I always measure with my $10 Stanley measuring tape the actual snowfall in my lots. I will choose a certain spot in middle of lot, and I take a digital pic with time and date stamp on pic with a clear shot of building in back ground. When I submit my invoices I send it in email form with attached pictures, one shot of building, and immedietly take closeup shot proving the depth. I don't screw them, I don't bill for 9.1 inches if there's 9" on pic.
I bill 1-3" $x, 3.1-6 $x, 6.1-9"$x, 9.1-12"$x then 12.1" is set amount plus $x per inch additional. Salt/sand is set price per sanding, walks are 2hr minimum at $x amount and addon same per additional shoveler. All but 1 of my lots are closed on sat and sun, so no priority to scrape, although I always send a truck through each one to do 2 passes for emergency vehicles can access in emergency ($500 fine that no one knows exists). 99% of time I make out like a bandit, very rarely do I have a shoveler working on one lot for 2hrs, 30mins tops in most cases,so I'm making money. I have my plow guys working my seasonal, I take care of all my per storm myself so it's paying for my time. Not to mention, 2of my per storm properties are identical in size 2acre plowable lots and are side by side. So both are priced the same and one is pure profit. Have they complained? Yes only because a few parking spots were not cleared because of abandoned cars, I told my contact to look at the security cameras. They apologized, and since no more calls to me. They know I will be there, they know snow is a financial burden on both parties. I always call my contact during and after storms to review things,he loves that. One of my drivers backed into chainlink fence 3weeks ago damaging it with this truck, I called a freind of mine who owns fence company that owes me a favor or two, he went there to fix it and when property boss came out to see why he was there, he told him I sent him there. He called me and said thankyou and didn't even know it was broken. Bottom line is a "customer is always the customer" not always right, but still the one who pays my bills. My customers know I'm always on the ball, they know I'm always driving thru properties checking on them, coming in pushing snow back to make room for more, resetting parking blocks that were moved, and etc. My contracts state evrything clearly, and I meet with customer to present contract and go over word by word. When my invoices go out with 30day net, my customers push my payments thru within 7days becuz I'm not battling, I often give them discounts becuz they paid early and I state the discount clearly on invoice with the reason. My cash flow is steady, my crew know what I expect o them, and I pay them weekly to date. Everyone happy runs a successful business. Sorry for long thread!


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## ppandr (Dec 16, 2004)

Ramairfreak98ss;967823 said:


> Yeah well the smart clients do get clever...
> 
> This company IS closed during the weekend but their contract is ONLY per push 2-4" and 4-7" and we go all weekend at the place.
> 
> ...


How did your bill get to $3420 or did I miss something?


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## CMerLand (May 2, 2000)

...BURLINGTON COUNTY...
TABERNACLE 24.8 728 AM 12/20 
MEDFORD 24.0 1050 PM 12/19 
SOUTHAMPTON 21.4 130 AM 12/20 
MEDFORD LAKES 21.0 1031 AM 12/20 
WILLINGBORO 19.6 1100 PM 12/19 
CINNAMINSON 19.2 807 AM 12/20 
MOORESTOWN 19.0 1130 AM 12/20 
WESTAMPTON 17.7 814 AM 12/20 
BURLINGTON 17.5 1211 PM 12/20 
BORDENTOWN 17.0 1132 AM 12/20 
PEMBERTON 17.0 912 AM 12/20 
MOUNT HOLLY NWS 16.6 720 AM 12/20 
WRIGHTSTOWN 16.0 719 AM 12/20 
DELRAN 


There's the snow amounts for burlington county from the NWS site for the December 19/20 storm. I dont actually know who or how they come up with these numbers but they use weather spotters, that measure throughout a storm. I also bill based on increments of 2-5, 5-8,8-10 + each additional inch. But these are independent numbers, I accept them as accurate and I state in my contract this is where Im getting my numbers from. They seem to be pretty darn accurate, and are also the numbers quoted in the newspapers the next day. Third party info makes it harder to claim Im trying to overcharge em.

As far as Jersey, its a weird freaking place snow wise and very often we end up on the snow rain line. In the past twenty years Ive seen three "storms of the century" and this latest storm was up there on the big side for NJ.

As far as not plowing on the weekend cause its closed, well snow don't wait. Example, The first "storm of the century" happened in 93. All we got was a measly 13 inches of snow, but since wed been in a snow drought for years leading up to it, it was considered a huge storm for us. Interesting thing happened during the storm. In the middle of it we had "thunder snow" which was a rain/snow thunderstorm in the middle of it cause the temps rose during the storm. We plowed with the storm as we always do, but by daybreak the next morning temps plummeted. Everything that wasnt plowed froze to solid ice and all that rain that was trapped in the snow couldnt be moved. It closed down the PA turnpike. Had to use backhoes to plow lots that we couldnt get to during the snow, and he was busting hydraulic lines trying to move the ice by the time we finished the last lot. So there goes that idea that we dont plow if your not open. Plowed by the hour back then and made less as I got faster at plowing, which made no sense and quickly changed formats.

Second storm of the century was in 96. 32 inches of the softest fluffiest snow ever. Plowed by the inch then. Snow moved, no problems and this one little lot that we only plowed twice the whole storm, the bill came to 1500 bucks. Worked out to 750 an hour for plowing. Try putting that number on a contract and see how many calls you get. Those bonus dollars cover the costs necessary to do, but tough to get paid for. Things like loading the salt, washing the trucks down, changing the oil, prep time etc.

The point of all this is you need to find a way to please your customers, meet their needs and have something other then Uh we came 5 times (client: BUT I ONLY saw u once) or well there was 7 inches when we plowed (client: But how do I know you took a good measurement) to avoid feelings of mistrust. Heres what we agreed too for X inches, heres an independent measurement and heres how much the bill is. Not alot of room for discrepancies and I get paid without complaint. Has worked well for me, give it some thought.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

buckwheat_la;967408 said:


> i think you are missing the point, which is that sometimes, even in a local small area, the snow amounts can vary greatly


Yep, and many contractors pick only the number that favors them.

I have seen the invoices. National weather service claims 5 inches and they charge for pushing 8 inches. Because there was drifting on the lot.

Often times they forget that most property managers have two to three vendors and many friends in the office. (funny how they talk)

Yes there are storms where I am a little short based on the air port there are also storms I am a little high. If you measure site you create an argument. If you use the national weather service number they are an independent third party.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

big acres;967653 said:


> I will DISAGREE however, with the idea that you can go off of the airports numbers. We both know that the metro area is a good 50 mile radius and things can be quite different from one end to the other.
> 
> Maybe it was nine inches AFTER the last wet mess sat on the previous snow and compressed it. Customers need to know how much was on their lot, which is why we use a tape measure. This gives us more ammo to justify an honest bill. I could care less that the airport said your 10K SF lot had six inches when your 25k SF flat roof warehouse is located northwest of the lot and the winds were from the northwest.


Best plan is to discuss it ahead of time with the manager. We don't just use the air port but about 20 locations that are all independently measured around town.

It keeps me from having to argue that the picture is the lot. It averages out.

How much more does it cost me to push 3 inches than 1.5?


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

blowerman;966702 said:


> So if I have this right, they are closed for the weekend and it still needed multiple clearings and saltings? As the owner of that business, I would probably complain also. Why don't you just clear it on Sunday? If I have (which we do) properties that are closed on the weekend, the snow can build up if I feel we need to clear other locations. Then on Sunday (or if we are done everywhere else) we'll come in with the wheel loader and pusher to clear the snow. Perhaps they need a more clear contract to explain what is going to be provided or they should clarifiy that it's not needed a million times on Sat. & Sun.


I hope your charging extra for the use of that loader.... im sure they would complain about that too. besides, closed or not, its a good idea to at least keep the snow to a managable amount for fire/safety reasons. (yes we all make more money too)

I think you would find you get alot more complaints if you bill them out at the end of each storm...get them in the mail with in 48 hours. Otherwise., just say this, ..."sir, we are more than happy to provide you pictures and data on yrou property for the future, but we would have to charge an administrative charge. Another option i can give you, we can call you with in 1 hr of every service, and you can meet us on the property and determine for yourself how much snow is on the property. ...we operate an honest business, and based on what was singed and explained during the contract, we serviced you based on what was aggreed., "

see where the conversation goes from there, id push them a little, but first ask yoru self is it worth loosing this account over it. thats for you to decide, based on the profitablity on this account, and your current work load.


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## Lightningllc (Nov 23, 2009)

All i can say is welcome to business, You either make someone happy or you will never make someone happy,

In a case of that much snow you knew you were getting that you should have plowed every 8 inches any more and it's hard on your truck. 3 billable events over 3 days that's fair. You also should have had that lot ready by 6 am with all of those pushes you did.

Rule of thumb== Stick ruler and digital camera with date log, also log sheet emailed to owner everytime it snowed. By a blckberry and log and log and log your work and then print off noaa's back log of how much snow we got.

I work for gm on snow and learned the hard way when you try to collect from a bankrupt company. log log and then log more.


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## ghost (Jan 23, 2004)

Why cry to us- Go tell them :crying:


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ppandr;968350 said:


> How did your bill get to $3420 or did I miss something?


Just using it as an example, say 20" of snow, 10 pushes and 10 saltings "once after each push" and its much higher than their less than 2k invoice. Just throwing the number out there since the company thinks we billed way too much for the one big storm. Their less than 2k number was for a few more rounds of salt in Dec 09 invoice, not just the dec 19th storm.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

CMerLand;968932 said:


> ...BURLINGTON COUNTY...
> TABERNACLE 24.8 728 AM 12/20
> MEDFORD 24.0 1050 PM 12/19
> SOUTHAMPTON 21.4 130 AM 12/20
> ...


Yeah, Trenton supposedly got less than most of burlington county.. heard that on the news the day after too. We live just south of wrightstown in pemberton which shows 17", but north of Tabernacle... both are within 10 miles of each other, how does tabernacle get almost 25" and wrightstown get 16.0? mount holly is directly west of us about 5 miles and they get 16.6? We had close to 24" here, i have pictures of our driveway, my employees cars and trucks sitting here the first time i stopped home finally late sunday morning.

Bordentown got more thqn 17" too, had to have. Im not sure where this freking measurement was, but i even had one of our clients call up after the storm, "a happy client", thrittled that the sidewalks and small lot looked perfect by 9am sunday morning..... he even said theres over 2ft there. I had another client from Bordentown say theres at least 20"... 17", maybe where the wind blew 7" off the top who knows.

Southampton is literally 2 miles south of pemberton, how do they get four more inches?

We had exact weather reports come in for two of our large sites. One in burlington 17.5" and one for cherry hill 18.1".... cherry hill had close to 22-23" too, but whatever, our site charges for those places are based off "reputable" reporting. Of course we'd be screwed for drifting on those contracts, but, we were paid to bring in the loader to scrape down packed snow in a few areas and move piles so all was good.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Lightningllc;969116 said:


> All i can say is welcome to business, You either make someone happy or you will never make someone happy,
> 
> In a case of that much snow you knew you were getting that you should have plowed every 8 inches any more and it's hard on your truck. 3 billable events over 3 days that's fair. You also should have had that lot ready by 6 am with all of those pushes you did.
> 
> ...


Although sounds like a good plan lightning, do you really take a picture each site visit? We dont issue exact photo copies of our log sheets because honestly, guys are dirty wet, cold etc, and our log sheets im lucky if they're all legible for me to read and transfer the proper data into the compute invoices. Theres also no reason they'd need to see our crews site comments or the other clients on the list that were serviced and when.

I'd love to take photos "multiple" of each property before/after and of a yard stick in the ground... i guess they could then just argue that we measured a deep area or area with a drift?

One lot has three sections of concrete, some areas are 20" or more lower than the one next to it, plowing past those areas can stack up 3-4' of snow with just a 15" storm, do i charge them 25" ? Its based off an average and im pretty good at dropping the plow and knowing within a couple inches how close the accumulation is. I have some of our guys measure though. If ever in doubt of a "not exact " measurement like 5" and they have a 2-4" push, ill read the rest of the site sheets and see what they plowed before and after that property.

Ill either charge them 2-4" price or if the site prior and the site 1/2hr later was 6-7", theyre charged the 5-7" range because the 5" our crew wrote down was probably closer to 6-7" not 4".


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

Silentroo;968947 said:


> Best plan is to discuss it ahead of time with the manager. We don't just use the air port but about 20 locations that are all independently measured around town.
> 
> It keeps me from having to argue that the picture is the lot. It averages out.
> 
> How much more does it cost me to push 3 inches than 1.5?


There is little difference in time to plow 1.5 verus 3, but we've all plowed heavy wet 2-4 inchers that plowed like 6-8.

Personally, our contract is very specific on how we take our 3 measurement average from non-packed, non-drifted,and non wind baren areas in the middle... we rarely have disputes over depth.

the airport is just to far off for me to hope it avrages out as you do, and nws is to inconsistent as to reporting station locations. guess a paid third party would be the best way.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

I can't figure this incremental billing. I could always find a 1' drift to measure and take a picture of it there, yet right behind the photographer there may only be 4".
The photo evidence is still arguable.

Seasonal is so much easier. If seasonals are not marketable in an area, why not a per push rate where service is automatic between 4"- 6" regardless of clients hours of operation? Some sort of weekend or holiday service clause could be written into next years contract...... Just a thought.


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## Lightningllc (Nov 23, 2009)

Ramairfreak98ss;969254 said:


> Although sounds like a good plan lightning, do you really take a picture each site visit? We dont issue exact photo copies of our log sheets because honestly, guys are dirty wet, cold etc, and our log sheets im lucky if they're all legible for me to read and transfer the proper data into the compute invoices. Theres also no reason they'd need to see our crews site comments or the other clients on the list that were serviced and when.
> 
> I'd love to take photos "multiple" of each property before/after and of a yard stick in the ground... i guess they could then just argue that we measured a deep area or area with a drift?
> 
> ...


Ok I have had I question over the last 14 years, You keep the camera with you and you can measure snow on cars and sidewalks are a safe bet. I can tell you it's not a science but it helps when they argue with you, Also don't plow every 2" when its gonna snow 16" that's a good way of pissing manager's off. Like I said 8" Rule on big storms. If you are getting 8" storm plow it once or twice based on time of snowfall.

Managers want one thing a clean parking lot and sidewalks when they arrive!!! That's all if there not they will open a can of worm's!!!!!!! They will remember that drift that you didn't come back and cleanup 4 hours after they opened.!!!!


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Ramairfreak98ss;969254 said:


> Although sounds like a good plan lightning, do you really take a picture each site visit? We dont issue exact photo copies of our log sheets because honestly, guys are dirty wet, cold etc, and our log sheets im lucky if they're all legible for me to read and transfer the proper data into the compute invoices. Theres also no reason they'd need to see our crews site comments or the other clients on the list that were serviced and when.
> 
> I'd love to take photos "multiple" of each property before/after and of a yard stick in the ground... i guess they could then just argue that we measured a deep area or area with a drift?
> 
> ...


just a thought, you probably don't have to take pics of every place, but if you have a problem place, it may be in your best benefit to take pics of just that property. if i was having this much problems with a customer, i would suggest to them, that they should be on a call in basis, give them a time they need to call in by to be done by opening, say 4am, then they can decide when they want it done, and they have no excuses if it doesn't get done because they don't contact you. And for the backlash i am going to get for suggesting they call in, obviously they aren't happy with how you have measured the snow to plow, so let them decide, let them know that once you get a idea what the h#ll they want, then maybe you can learn their expectations. I am willing to bet after a couple of times phoning in, or missing getting it done because they make a "cheap" decission


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Just a question

Anywhere in your contract does it state that you have the right to maintain proper access to a property? like for example a fire or need for emeregency equipment to access the building?

Many commercial contracts around here have that built in and its even on the first page on many government contracts,and if they still complain about it ask them to consult their own insurance company as they will tell them this direct

Just a thought for next year or if anyone liked the idea.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Lightningllc;969287 said:


> Ok I have had I question over the last 14 years, You keep the camera with you and you can measure snow on cars and sidewalks are a safe bet. I can tell you it's not a science but it helps when they argue with you, Also don't plow every 2" when its gonna snow 16" that's a good way of pissing manager's off. Like I said 8" Rule on big storms. If you are getting 8" storm plow it once or twice based on time of snowfall.
> 
> Managers want one thing a clean parking lot and sidewalks when they arrive!!! That's all if there not they will open a can of worm's!!!!!!! They will remember that drift that you didn't come back and cleanup 4 hours after they opened.!!!!


Yeah your right man. Some accounts are ticked if were not there after 1.5" seriously, others right on, they're ticked with more than two pushes for 16".

And if something isnt perfect when they arrive in the morning, right on there too. Doesnt matter how much work has been done to that point, if they show up and its not 100%, its like you didnt do anything at all, and starts the big issues with disputes etc.


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## ppandr (Dec 16, 2004)

Bajak;969260 said:


> I can't figure this incremental billing. I could always find a 1' drift to measure and take a picture of it there, yet right behind the photographer there may only be 4".
> The photo evidence is still arguable.
> 
> Seasonal is so much easier. If seasonals are not marketable in an area, why not a per push rate where service is automatic between 4"- 6" regardless of clients hours of operation? Some sort of weekend or holiday service clause could be written into next years contract...... Just a thought.


It is important to manage the clients expectations during the contract phase so there are no questions down the road. Take notes at the meetings, send the clients a copy for their records. Anything that comes up as a sticking point should be in the contract.

Yes, seasonal is the way to go or at least a good mix (makes light years like this livable).

TRUST is what we are missing here........ Photo evidence is the next best thing to having an owners rep onsite where as both of you measure. Years ago I maintained a multi use commercial/warehouse property with 20 tenents. The first year they questioned the snow totals. At my request they sent an representative to confirm the snow totals when I called (the owners son who half the time didn't show). The next year they went seasonal.


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## ppandr (Dec 16, 2004)

Ramairfreak98ss;969532 said:


> Yeah your right man. Some accounts are ticked if were not there after 1.5" seriously, others right on, they're ticked with more than two pushes for 16".
> 
> And if something isnt perfect when they arrive in the morning, right on there too. Doesnt matter how much work has been done to that point, if they show up and its not 100%, its like you didnt do anything at all, and starts the big issues with disputes etc.


Again expectations....
As a rule of thumb I tell my clients that we will be finished with everything including cleanup within an hour for every inch that falls once it stops snowing. So if it stops snowing at 6am with 12" we will be 100% complete by 6pm (this is for both resi and comm). Most times we are finished before any other other commercials in the area and always before the local roads/highways.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

big acres;969257 said:


> There is little difference in time to plow 1.5 verus 3, but we've all plowed heavy wet 2-4 inchers that plowed like 6-8.
> 
> Personally, our contract is very specific on how we take our 3 measurement average from non-packed, non-drifted,and non wind baren areas in the middle... we rarely have disputes over depth.
> 
> the airport is just to far off for me to hope it avrages out as you do, and nws is to inconsistent as to reporting station locations. guess a paid third party would be the best way.


You also don't overbill. Most customers know when they are getting screwed. The third party ends many of the conversations however not all of them . You still get some. It all comes down to making sure they know up front, and remembering most time your customer has a budget. Push that budget too hard and they will not stay a customer.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Silentroo;969914 said:


> You also don't overbill. Most customers know when they are getting screwed. The third party ends many of the conversations however not all of them . You still get some. It all comes down to making sure they know up front, and remembering most time your customer has a budget. Push that budget too hard and they will not stay a customer.


Some of the time the customer has an unrealistic budget that you can't give the proper service to. Happens in landscaping all the time.


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## plowmaster07 (Feb 1, 2009)

WIPensFan;969921 said:


> Some of the time the customer has an unrealistic budget that you can't give the proper service to. *Happens in landscaping all the time*.


X2 on that. Been through that game a few times.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

WIPensFan;969921 said:


> Some of the time the customer has an unrealistic budget that you can't give the proper service to. Happens in landscaping all the time.


Sorry that is a load of crap.

If their budget is unrealistic you should know it before the contract is signed. If you don't it is your fault not theirs.

Too often we know what money is on the table and try to get just a little more.

I have invoices from plow companies for 28 hours in a truck for a single day, because they needed a little extra money because they could not give proper service.

I have an invoice from a walks guy who claims to have shoveled for 18 hours straight with no breaks for any reason. All to give proper service.

I have seen plow company bill at double the agreed rate in a storm just because they wanted to give proper service.

Why does it happen in Landscaping and snow? We give them hourly numbers that are total crap and are surprised when they catch us cheating.

We had a local grocery chain put in a card system where the landscaper and snow guys had to clock in and out. His costs went down 25% the first year. He brought the contractor into his office after the first storm this year to review security footage from the event and got almost a 50% reduction in his bill.

I have a bill framed on my wall next to a picture of the crew. 4 guys on the bill 3 in the photo. They could not understand why I would not pay.

Look at the original post.

On 24-25 inches of snow he billed 30 inches. His solution is to leave of the snow totals so they don't see it next time?


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## Lightningllc (Nov 23, 2009)

Well said, 1 thing I learned a long time ago BE HONEST, The commerical. industrial or property manager has been doing this for sometime,

For example my dad runs a plant.

one year a company comes in with a plow price of $13000 a season and $100 ton 3 tons

2nd year differnt company $11000 season plow and salt $80 ton 6 ton

3 rd year company came in at $15000 and $ 110 ton and 2-3 ton to do job

I put a bid in on my own for $12500 season and $110 ton I used 1-2 ton's Tell me what's wrong.

Being truthful has kept this job for 11 year's and turned into all kind's of other work and 2 other plant's.

BE HONEST AND YOU WILL MAKE IT LYE AND DYE


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Silentroo;970197 said:


> Sorry that is a load of crap.
> 
> If their budget is unrealistic you should know it before the contract is signed. If you don't it is your fault not theirs.
> 
> ...


Snow should never be done hourly. Not all of us "Snow & Landscape guys" are dishonest. Budgets are set by people that have never done snow removal or landscaping in their life. Usually you don't know the budget until you're just about to go over it and they call and start complaining because it snowed to much, like we control that!



Lightningllc;970201 said:


> Well said, 1 thing I learned a long time ago BE HONEST, The commerical. industrial or property manager has been doing this for sometime,
> 
> For example my dad runs a plant.
> 
> ...


Where to start on this BS. You come in with a bid that is just under 2 other bids from other companies, at a plant run by your dad, and you get the job. SHOCKER!! And you kept the job for 11 Yrs. YOU DON'T SAY!! And you added 2 other plants.:salute: WAY TO GO ZIPPY!! If we could all be as honest as you and your dad.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

WIPensFan;970235 said:


> Snow should never be done hourly. Not all of us "Snow & Landscape guys" are dishonest. Budgets are set by people that have never done snow removal or landscaping in their life. Usually you don't know the budget until you're just about to go over it and they call and start complaining because it snowed to much, like we control that!
> 
> Where to start on this BS. You come in with a bid that is just under 2 other bids from other companies, at a plant run by your dad, and you get the job. SHOCKER!! And you kept the job for 11 Yrs. YOU DON'T SAY!! And you added 2 other plants.:salute: WAY TO GO ZIPPY!! If we could all be as honest as you and your dad.


agreed, i wish all my customers would share their budgets with me, would make life a lot easier, i am also pretty sure if i asked i would be laughed at,


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

WiPens - For some it's the bufget that is unrealistic, I do agree. Many up here base budgets on the previous 3-5 years, and we have not seen a storm that required so much effort in this period. It is a budget buster, and I usually bring up the fact that I understand this when it go to meeting time over the bill. You have to let them know that you see their side.

For others, it's their expectations. We had a condo association with very basic specs, and somehow they thought they should have seen bare pavement and plenty of clearance on Monday after Christmas WITHOUT any salt or loader work that is billable by contract.... guess again.

Silentroo... I am not defending overbilling at all, just getting paid for what we actually do. We both know that there are alot of apartments with two inch contracts, but as someone here said "all they know is that their lot is white and they want to see black" You skip them on a 1 incher and get a grouchy phone call... then you begin to service them at the one-inch level by precedent. This has worked fine until now... I will immediately sit them down and tell them they did not buy the service they are truly expecting and offer to change the spec... and price if necessary.

The biggest thing I learned from this one is that if you know it's gonna be a big bill... give them a ballpark even if it's t&m. I had two instances where they told me what snow needed to be hauled or moved and I stated it would be T&M and they said proceed. The sticker shock hit and I said it is what it is... check your security tapes and you will see an efficient operation working during the time we billed. I should have said up front "You could be looking at 3-5k, what is your budget and what are the priorities... we will start there and work until it is done or your budget is exhausted"


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## Lightningllc (Nov 23, 2009)

WIPensFan;970235 said:


> Snow should never be done hourly. Not all of us "Snow & Landscape guys" are dishonest. Budgets are set by people that have never done snow removal or landscaping in their life. Usually you don't know the budget until you're just about to go over it and they call and start complaining because it snowed to much, like we control that!
> 
> Where to start on this BS. You come in with a bid that is just under 2 other bids from other companies, at a plant run by your dad, and you get the job. SHOCKER!! And you kept the job for 11 Yrs. YOU DON'T SAY!! And you added 2 other plants.:salute: WAY TO GO ZIPPY!! If we could all be as honest as you and your dad.


Take a shot ZIPPY, I was never shown any numbers, Funny that plant was sold 1 year into getting it, my dad moved out of state with thar company, I gained all the other work for the new company, Oh and my family is from the school of hard knox, NO FAVORS DO IT ON YOUR OWN, NO HELP FROM THEM!!!! So you are taking what i'm writing the wrong way.

If you are wondering what a company is paying just ask them it a 50/50 shot they will tell you, Over the years i've told company's i can't touch what you paying, But i can offer you better service. Service comes with a price.

So don't attack me with the old famous your daddy got you in the door, Sometimes it doesn't work that way. Oh and the purchasing manager was who i delt with. How would my old man get the numbers when he doesn't handle them or have access.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

Lightningllc;970501 said:


> Take a shot ZIPPY, I was never shown any numbers, Funny that plant was sold 1 year into getting it, my dad moved out of state with thar company, I gained all the other work for the new company, Oh and my family is from the school of hard knox, NO FAVORS DO IT ON YOUR OWN, NO HELP FROM THEM!!!! So you are taking what i'm writing the wrong way.
> 
> If you are wondering what a company is paying just ask them it a 50/50 shot they will tell you, Over the years i've told company's i can't touch what you paying, But i can offer you better service. Service comes with a price.
> 
> So don't attack me with the old famous your daddy got you in the door, Sometimes it doesn't work that way. Oh and the purchasing manager was who i delt with. How would my old man get the numbers when he doesn't handle them or have access.


Easy Lightning... you gotta admit that you said none of this in that post. He wrote exactly what I was thinking too.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Lightningllc;970501 said:


> Take a shot ZIPPY, I was never shown any numbers, Funny that plant was sold 1 year into getting it, my dad moved out of state with thar company, I gained all the other work for the new company, Oh and my family is from the school of hard knox, NO FAVORS DO IT ON YOUR OWN, NO HELP FROM THEM!!!! So you are taking what i'm writing the wrong way.
> 
> If you are wondering what a company is paying just ask them it a 50/50 shot they will tell you, Over the years i've told company's i can't touch what you paying, But i can offer you better service. Service comes with a price.
> 
> So don't attack me with the old famous your daddy got you in the door, Sometimes it doesn't work that way. Oh and the purchasing manager was who i delt with. How would my old man get the numbers when he doesn't handle them or have access.





big acres;970606 said:


> Easy Lightning... you gotta admit that you said none of this in that post. He wrote exactly what I was thinking too.


X2, if you are going to write stuff, take a second, read over it, and see how it sounds from and outsiders point of view, or some of us may interpret it a different way


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## timberseal (Jul 24, 2008)

Budgets do play a role... we picked up a client this year simply because I stopped to see if they needed service and the guy doing it the previous years all but dissappeared. The client agreed on the price for plowing and salting and left salting at our discretion. Here midway through January he faxes me a letter saying between December and half of January they already went way over they're budget they had for the last several years. The invoices combined are like $1800 for not quite a 1/3 acre lot. Chump change if you ask me but the fact that they spent less than $1800 for plowing AND salt last year (70 inch season) leads me to believe 1) he's not being truthfull or 2) the contractor previously was a total idiot!


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## heather lawn spray (Mar 11, 2003)

timberseal;970665 said:


> Budgets do play a role... we picked up a client this year simply because I stopped to see if they needed service and the guy doing it the previous years all but dissappeared. The client agreed on the price for plowing and salting and left salting at our discretion. Here midway through January he faxes me a letter saying between December and half of January they already went way over they're budget they had for the last several years. The invoices combined are like $1800 for not quite a 1/3 acre lot. Chump change if you ask me but the fact that they spent less than $1800 for plowing AND salt last year (70 inch season) leads me to believe 1) he's not being truthfull or 2) the contractor previously was a total idiot!


On average I vote for choice #2. Do you think that's why he disappeared this year?


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

timberseal;970665 said:


> Budgets do play a role... we picked up a client this year simply because I stopped to see if they needed service and the guy doing it the previous years all but dissappeared. The client agreed on the price for plowing and salting and left salting at our discretion. Here midway through January he faxes me a letter saying between December and half of January they already went way over they're budget they had for the last several years. The invoices combined are like $1800 for not quite a 1/3 acre lot. Chump change if you ask me but the fact that they spent less than $1800 for plowing AND salt last year (70 inch season) leads me to believe 1) he's not being truthfull or 2) the contractor previously was a total idiot!


we ran into exactly the same situation this year with a large condo complex. Their previous plower/salter/shoveler is no longer in business. I offered them seasonal pricing, which they refused, they wanted to pay by the service. When we sent the bill for december it was "way too much" more than 3/4 of their budget, "we've never had a bill for that much" we serviced their property exactly to the T of how our contract was written, no surprises, no over charges, nothing.

They wonder why their previous contractor is no longer in business.......


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## heather lawn spray (Mar 11, 2003)

longae29;970677 said:


> we ran into exactly the same situation this year with a large condo complex. Their previous plower/salter/shoveler is no longer in business. I offered them seasonal pricing, which they refused, they wanted to pay by the service. When we sent the bill for december it was "way too much" more than 3/4 of their budget, "we've never had a bill for that much" we serviced their property exactly to the t of how our contract was written, no surprises, no over charges, nothing.
> 
> They wonder why their previous contractor is no longer in business.......


exactly. . .


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

I ask all of my potential clients for their budgets, saves everyone time. Some go so far as to hand me a copy of thier current contract, some black out numbers, others don't.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

WIPensFan;970235 said:


> Snow should never be done hourly. Not all of us "Snow & Landscape guys" are dishonest. Budgets are set by people that have never done snow removal or landscaping in their life. Usually you don't know the budget until you're just about to go over it and they call and start complaining because it snowed to much, like we control that!


Yep it is 100% their fault we don't talk to them.

Communication makes a difference. The guy in the original post serviced the lot 6 times in 3 days with out any communication with the customer. NONE. He serviced them more than they wanted. But it is their fault in your mind because they have never done snow. Or because it snowed too much?

You are not only clearing snow You can say it is not your job to talk to them, you can say it was preformed according to the contract, however there are 100's of companies out there who have figured it out and will be happy to take your work. He was spending their money with out talking with them.

Ever listen to your customer. They are not complaining that it snow so much, they are complain at the size of your bill in relation to their budget and service expectations. Unless it is a brand new company they know what they have paid in the past. They have all the numbers going back to the day the building was built.

They have a budget for a reason. If you actually take the time to talk to them you will understand that 1800 for a 1/3 of an acre lot may be the right budget for the service they expect and want. I offices for years in a building that paid less than 500 a year to do his 1/2 acre lot (no salt) just clear at the end of the storm. Had I serviced him as I normally do it would have been 3000. I knew his budget and made his service work for him.

I heard another plow company tell a property manager that 22 inches of snow in December was 80% of the snow we normally got in a year. So that is why they had already spent 90% of their snow budget. (Fact is it was less than 35% and actually only double a normal December) think the property manager did not check the fact?

The example of the 4 bids is what I am talking about 4 companies look at the same lot and range in salt usage from 1.5 tons to 6 tons. That is a little bit of a spread. 3 are lying about what they are going to use.

Every year I take bids on 3 properties that I service and know the owner on. No one knows they are bidding it for me, they think they are bidding it for a small property manager. I call all the big players in town, and post ads 4-5 places. I see the bids. I know the budget I answer every question asked. This year I got 27 bids. 
Now I understand I may be running into minimum charges for service, however only 1 company mentioned that.

Property 1 One Acre Property 3000 Sq feet of walks
Salt 1 ton to 4 tons
Walks salt 25 Pounds to 75 pounds.
Total seasonal package 2200 to 8000
Last year spent 4200 per push

Property 2 two acres 4500 Sq feet of walks. 
Salt 1 ton to 8 tons. Price 125 to 450 a ton
Walks material 25 lbs to 250 lbs
Total seasonal package 3500 to 14,000
last years spent 6800 per push

Property 3 5.75 acres wide open 10000 Square feet of walks. 
Salt 1 ton to 12 tons
Walks 25 lbs to 250 lbs
Total seasonal package 12500 to 52000
last year spent 42000 per push

See why they might push back. They see 3-4 companies all telling them, they are a professional all come with numbers that are all over the board. It is one thing if you only list price and don't show your figuring, however in many cases they show their work.....

Secondly they have your invoices.

They take the time to actually look at them line by line, They also compare them to the other invoices they have. I picked up a property 2 years ago based on the fact that the owner had two buildings side by side, The one I was servicing and the one another company was servicing. Similar sizes. My bills were consistent and, my snow total was matching what he knew to be true. The second bill was inconsistent and mostly one level up in inches from where it should be. I was more expensive. but I got both buildings because the owner felt I was honest and the other guy was not. (I also gave much better service and was better looking.)

I know we all have different cost structures and need different profits. However we need to remember we are a service business. If we don't keep the customer and their budget in mind we don't keep the work. If we treat every customer as if they are a Class AAAAA+ property we will always have issues.

Lastly I have a guy working hourly on a sites, Here are his numbers for the past 10 1-2 inch storms.

1.25, 1.5 .75, 2, 1.5, 1.25, 2.5, 1.5, 1.25, 1.6

Know what I have a camera on site. His actual times

.75, .75, .75, 1.25, .75, .75, 1.75, .75, .75, .75.

I was clear it is the time from start blade down to blade up and off the lot. None of those times take out the 5-10 minutes he is sitting (I would assume talking on the phone)

Mangers see this and push back for a reason. Same reason I do, When you are getting screwed it will continue unless you do. See above example of hours.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

To me it doesn't matter what the numbers are dating back to when the building was built. What matters to me is that they chose to accept my numbers.and will be billed according to my numbers. Just because 3 years ago they had snow hauled off their lot for $500 doesn't mean I will do it for the same amount. If the customer calls and says they want all the parking spaces opened up as soon as possible and you act accordingly, they will have to pay what you say the bill is within reason of course. If they call and say they want all the parking spaces opened as soon as possible but they want a price that it will cost to do so, then you must give them a firm price and stick to it.

As far as getting 3 bids to compare yours to, that's just wasting other peoples time. Of course you will get a wide range of costs, all companies have different operating costs. To say some are lying is wrong! They are simply bidding the job according to what they need to get to take on the job. Some will do a better job than others, the cheap bid may even do the best work, you never know.

On the hourly work by your guy: He should get paid to get to the site and on to the next, i.e. travel time. My feeling is that he took the job because he really needed the work, and your taking advantage of him. If you call him at 2 o'clock in the morning and he gets to the site at 2:30(guessing), plows for 3/4 of an hr. and gets to the next place at 3:30, then he has been up and working for 1 1/2 hrs. and getting paid for 3/4 of an hr. To me that's not worth it. 

Sounds to me like you believe everyone is dishonest except you. You need to change your thinking and see a bigger picture.


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## Lightningllc (Nov 23, 2009)

I agree with some of that, If you want to nickel and dime your sub, install a gps unit in his truck.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

10-4 on that. I dont expect my subs to run around on their time. I would not work for you.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

Silentroo;971978 said:


> I heard another plow company tell a property manager that 22 inches of snow in December was 80% of the snow we normally got in a year. So that is why they had already spent 90% of their snow budget. (Fact is it was less than 35% and actually only double a normal December) think the property manager did not check the fact?
> 
> I myself might actually be guilty of excagerating this way. No we did not get 80% of a whole season's snow, but in your own words it was double an avaerage December and it truthfully may have been close to 80% of the workload to clear an a full season. When you add in the extra salting (like the mess we have right now) and the fact that hauling took 30% longer... a rough estimate I know, but those frozen piles had to be busted up and couldn't just be scooped into the dump. Add these things and you have a budget buster. I deal with some super savvy commercial managers who will take the time to understand these things and I also deal with some real pinheads (mostly HOA) who will only understand "We've had nearly a full season of snow here already" to try to get the point across.
> 
> ...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

big acres;972380 said:


> Silentroo;971978 said:
> 
> 
> > I heard another plow company tell a property manager that 22 inches of snow in December was 80% of the snow we normally got in a year. So that is why they had already spent 90% of their snow budget. (Fact is it was less than 35% and actually only double a normal December) think the property manager did not check the fact?
> ...


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

WIPensFan;972398 said:


> big acres;972380 said:
> 
> 
> > I mean really, why wouldn't you give away your Wild tickets. :laughing:
> ...


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## Lightningllc (Nov 23, 2009)

Treat others as you would want to be treated. I pay my subs 50 percent up front and 50 percent in april on seasonal jobs, and I have some setup on per push they have a set rate If it is not done by 7 am we got problems then I inacted a late fee of $25 hr until done. Now if the storm starts were they can not get it done by 7 am we all work together.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

WIPensFan;972099 said:


> As far as getting 3 bids to compare yours to, that's just wasting other peoples time. Of course you will get a wide range of costs, all companies have different operating costs. To say some are lying is wrong! They are simply bidding the job according to what they need to get to take on the job. Some will do a better job than others, the cheap bid may even do the best work, you never know.


All the numbers I showed you had nothing to do with operating costs. It had to do with salt usage. I have one company in town suggesting they will apply 4 tons to a one acre property. Sorry if I think they might be lying. Yes the seasonal numbers are all over the board I expect that, everyone thinks they will do a different amount of work.



WIPensFan;972099 said:


> On the hourly work by your guy: He should get paid to get to the site and on to the next, i.e. travel time. My feeling is that he took the job because he really needed the work, and your taking advantage of him. If you call him at 2 o'clock in the morning and he gets to the site at 2:30(guessing), plows for 3/4 of an hr. and gets to the next place at 3:30, then he has been up and working for 1 1/2 hrs. and getting paid for 3/4 of an hr. To me that's not worth it.


It is not our agreement. He agreed to it. Your feeling would be incorrect. He took it because he does three lots right around it. his travel time is about 3 minutes.



WIPensFan;972099 said:


> Sounds to me like you believe everyone is dishonest except you. You need to change your thinking and see a bigger picture.


No I run many subs that I have used for year who I never question their invoices, who do a great job. I know many of my competitors who do a great job.I also know the ones who don't.

What would the bigger picture be? In my mind the bigger picture might be making a couple hundred bucks and losing a 10k contract might not be worth it.

This conversation is based on a guy charging 30 inches for a property that got around 25 inches I guess if you don't find that dishonest no one in the industry is dishonest.

I think the attitude of me "nickle and dime"my sub for asking him to bill me honestly is the whole point.

You wonder why property mangers don't trust our industry. it is that right there. We see it as nickle and diming us when they want an honest bid.

lastly Big Acres.

Thanks for the bid. and no I do not print up cards.

[/QUOTE]


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Silentroo;972670 said:


> All the numbers I showed you had nothing to do with operating costs. It had to do with salt usage. I have one company in town suggesting they will apply 4 tons to a one acre property. Sorry if I think they might be lying. Yes the seasonal numbers are all over the board I expect that, everyone thinks they will do a different amount of work.
> 
> It is not our agreement. He agreed to it. Your feeling would be incorrect. He took it because he does three lots right around it. his travel time is about 3 minutes.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

They don't want an honest bid, they want a bid that keeps more money in their pockets. I'll never side with the property managers. I've met 2 in my life that I trust.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

big acres;972380 said:


> Silentroo;971978 said:
> 
> 
> > I heard another plow company tell a property manager that 22 inches of snow in December was 80% of the snow we normally got in a year. So that is why they had already spent 90% of their snow budget. (Fact is it was less than 35% and actually only double a normal December) think the property manager did not check the fact?
> ...


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Well quick update on this one too...

After the letter addressing the concerns... we have not heard from the company.

I emailed both manager and apparant owner and no response.

We got an email 2 days ago, to not salt or plow the site in the event of a storm "yesterday".

We said no problem.

Today, the manager "possible owner" i talk to on the phone finally, says that they just mailed out the December 2009 check, "who knows for what amount though", said we should have it in a couple days. So theyre 5 days past the due date of Net 30. We already emailed "yesterday" their January 2010 invoice which he was flipping out over because of salt prices.

We salted 6 times in the month for a total of $679 plus tax, their late fee from the $1800~ past due from last month and now he states that he's not going to pay it because he told me they didnt want salt... Tough because their original contract says that there is seperate salt and plowing prices.

I "think" his wife, that wrote the original letter to us, said that she did not need "heavy salting " done unless its for snow removal. We never or rarely charge that rate unless there is an ice storm... we never charged this customer that and i explained that to her two weeks ago.

So now the manager thinks they dont have to pay us because she said she didnt want heavy salting done lol. They really dont have a complaint other than i think they cant afford it or dont like the prices. Theyre not disputing anything in January and just complained about everything possible in December.

Also found out what the "plowed in loading dock door" was, in back, there are 6 loading dock doors, I was told they were unused and that they ONLY use the side ramp door, which we keep clean. Big mis-communication here.


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## 1daniel1 (Dec 17, 2009)

I just printed that initial thread out, went and sat on the toilet, and am back to add my 2 cents. I feel for you Ramair. Get used to it though if you haven't already.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

1daniel1;985883 said:


> I just printed that initial thread out, went and sat on the toilet, and am back to add my 2 cents. I feel for you Ramair. Get used to it though if you haven't already.


Love the sig...:laughing::laughing:


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

1daniel1;985883 said:


> I just printed that initial thread out, went and sat on the toilet, and am back to add my 2 cents. I feel for you Ramair. Get used to it though if you haven't already.


get a laptop and save the ink.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

Ramairfreak98ss;985551 said:


> Well quick update on this one too...
> 
> After the letter addressing the concerns... we have not heard from the company.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why if this was such a big issue that you did not meet with them and clarify what their service expectations were. They seem to have a very different understanding of what service is expected, wanted and authorized in the contract.

Often a simple conversation saves headaches and customers.


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## darryl g (Jan 30, 2010)

You kind of lost me about 1/2 through your post too but I think I got the picture. So you billed 5 pushes? 

I used to itemize the date and time of each push and the number of inches for each push on my invoices. That sometimes lead to customers nit picking over it. Now I just give everyone a base rate and apply a multiplier for each storm. Same price no matter if I came once or 5 times. I put the date(s) of the storm and the approx. total accumulation. Basically it's just one line on the invoice for each storm event. Simple and easy for me and not much for customers to argue over. 

I was kind and only billed my customers 2.5 times their base rate for that storm. My terms are 2.5 to 3.5 times the base rate for 8+ inches. I did bill an industrial parking lot at 3.5 times the base rate due to the stacking required. We got 20 inches here but it was nice and light and fluffy. I do reserve the rate to bill hourly too. 

Kind of wish I'd billed more since that was really the only storm so far this winter in my neck of the woods. Had a 2 incher where I plowed selected accounts but no other full route storms  It's so frustrating that the storms keep brushing to the south of me...tempted to fire my baby up and head south.


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## Bunky1 (Jan 28, 2010)

We charge less per push if pushed at around 6". If we have to wait til the storm is over we charge a graduated rate. When I 1st meet with new customers I show them the after the storm rate and the per push rate. They come out a whole lot cheaper with the per push rate.
For example: $50 per push and a 12" snowfall is $100 but if I have to wait til the end of the storm I get the adjusted rate of $153.12. I have a sheet that each customer gets at the begining of the season detailing my bill rate. Another example for a 30 inch snow and a base rate of $50/six inches =$250 But the after the storm rate is $600.28. Now if I fail to hit the property in a timely manner the expense is on me. And we only charge what the National weather states we received in a certian area and not what is actually measured.Also we take the amount that the National Weather says and we divide by 6" and that determines the number of pushes we bill and we always round up to the next higher number (Ex. 2.4 rounds up to 3.0 pushes)


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