# 65000 square feet lot. Looking for advice



## Tom2393 (Oct 15, 2019)

Hey everyone have a friend that owns a local business and wants me to plow for him it's 65,000sq with minimum obstructions. Parking lot is in bad shape asphalt broken ect.

He also wants salt applied as well 

Looking for prices/time/rate and any other helpful information I'm going about this.

Located in southeast Michigan

Also this will be my first year plowing for my business I plowed for the railroad for years is this plowing business profitable and a good add-on? For my lawn care company?

Thanks


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## jasburrito (Jul 9, 2014)

I have never bid plowing. But i am thinking 100 to plow and 80 to salt. With 1 inch trigger. If the triggers higher. Charge more.


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## Tom2393 (Oct 15, 2019)

My pricing might be off then I was going to charge 230 for plowing and clearing three entrances at 2" trigger.

And salt applied I was around $190


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

jasburrito said:


> I have never bid plowing.


Then why start now?
Where did these numbers come from?


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## jasburrito (Jul 9, 2014)

I have researched plowing a bunch on this website and youtube. I noticed plowing is about 20% more than mowing per acre. With minimal snow. Add 40% if its like 3/4 inch trigger. And salting is about the same as mowing. But i see things nobody else does. So my observations may be wrong to you.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

jasburrito said:


> . But i see things nobody else does. So my observations may be wrong to you.


Do tell?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

The prices that have been listed are low for SE Michigan 
Now sure about sw Michigan


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## Tom2393 (Oct 15, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> The prices that have been listed are low for SE Michigan
> Now sure about sw Michigan


I thought I was on the high end with $230 plowing and shoveling entrances and $190 salt applied hmmmm


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## Tom2393 (Oct 15, 2019)

2 hrs of plowing=$190
Hand shoveling one main entrance two small entrances=$40. 

$230

I'm not trying to be the highest I just don't want to take a fatal mistake and lose money. Got a lot riding on my winter decision. Just want to make sure I'm in the ballpark of competitors.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Tom2393 said:


> I thought I was on the high end with $230 plowing and shoveling entrances and $190 salt applied hmmmm


My apologies, I wasn't directing it at you, it was directed at the fella who doesn't plow


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## jasburrito (Jul 9, 2014)

If you can get that much you should sub it out. Seems theres alot of meat on the bone. Premium plow guys around here only get 70 per hr. Way less money west side. Rare to see people in new cars. On the east side i see new exspensive cars everywhere. Night and day in general.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Wow. I’d expect $250-350 plow & $200’s for salt. But we got bills.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

jasburrito said:


> I have never bid plowing. But i am thinking 100 to plow and 80 to salt. With 1 inch trigger. If the triggers higher. Charge more.


If you can do three driveways in twenty minutes at 35 bucks a drive, why would you do something that's going to take more than an hour and make a lot less profit.
80 bucks to salt.
That parking lot is going to take damn near 1000-1100 lbs to salt.
Salt is going for 110-120 bucks per yard (around 2200 lbs) that doesn't leave much room for profit, if any after you've paid for fuel, equipment insurance and everything else.



jasburrito said:


> If you can get that much you should sub it out. Seems theres alot of meat on the bone. Premium plow guys around here only get 70 per hr. Way less money west side. Rare to see people in new cars. On the east side i see new exspensive cars everywhere. Night and day in general.


What exactly is a premium plow guy? And I'll bet those are sub contractor rates (maybe) and companies are earning much more than that per hour.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Like above you better recognize when they offer subs $70 per one hour on site most likely they are charging $170/hr and probably charging for two hours.


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## jasburrito (Jul 9, 2014)

With a 1 inch trigger and zero tolerance you plow and salt the whole time it snows. Saw 1 you tuber that made over 30gs in one upscale gas station parking lot. He charged my advertised rates. So if he goes out there every three inches your gonna have to charge about 30/40% more at least to make as much as a 1 inch trigger. I said i never bid a plowing job. Am that far off? I am just trying to help the guy. Ya i would never plow for 70hr. But guys do. I wanna do 45 secound jobs for $35.00 lol


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jasburrito said:


> If you can get that much you should sub it out. Seems theres alot of meat on the bone. Premium plow guys around here only get 70 per hr. Way less money west side. Rare to see people in new cars. On the east side i see new exspensive cars everywhere. Night and day in general.


You have no idea what you're talking about.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Those are per push rates as in one price to clear once. What if it take 2 hours to plow and it snows 2” per hour for 4-5 hours? You lose big.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You have no idea what you're talking about.


Why? Do you have a new car?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jasburrito said:


> I noticed plowing is about 20% more than mowing per acre.


It is???



jasburrito said:


> Add 40% if its like 3/4 inch trigger.


Why???



jasburrito said:


> And salting is about the same as mowing.


You're not even in the same country much less ballpark with this statement.



jasburrito said:


> So my observations may be wrong to you.


They're wrong to pretty much everyone outside of dreary Erie.



Tom2393 said:


> 2 hrs of plowing=$190


Can I ask what you plan on plowing with? Could just about shovel 65K square feet in 2 hours.


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## jasburrito (Jul 9, 2014)

Geeze. I give my friends deals. Maybe you guys do not? Ya that should be plowed in around 1hr 10 minutes. He added the shoveling later. But whatever. I am out.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I charge my friend more...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> I charge my friend more...


I don't have any friends.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

jasburrito said:


> Geeze. I give my friends deals. Maybe you guys do not? Ya that should be plowed in around 1hr 10 minutes. He added the shoveling later. But whatever. I am out.


I'm in thIs business to make money not friends.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I don't have any friends.


Oh!... I need to change my answer...


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## Tom2393 (Oct 15, 2019)

You guys are nuts lol
and a 7 1/2. Meyer plow.


$230 1-3"
272 3-6"
312 6-9"
358 9-12
12+ /time

I already know I don't know s*** I'm just looking for advice


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

jasburrito said:


> I have never bid plowing. But i am thinking 100 to plow and 80 to salt. With 1 inch trigger. If the triggers higher. Charge more.


80 to salt 1.5 acres?? That's really bad advice no matter what part of the state/country you are in.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Tom2393 said:


> You guys are nuts lol
> and a 7 1/2. Meyer plow.
> 
> $230 1-3"
> ...


That's a good start.

How are you going to apply the salt? 
Where are you getting the salt and how much is it? Bags? Figure about 15-30 bags per time depending on the conditions or needs. 
Storage- you will have to stock enough especially for back to back storms.


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## Hamster360 (Jul 10, 2015)

Around here that kind of a lot would go for 8-900$ per month for plowing and walks. 75$ for the salt
bin for the walks, and about 160$ per salt app. Those are all Canadian prices. We pay 130-140 per ton for salt.


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## Tom2393 (Oct 15, 2019)

Tailgate gate spreader will be slinging salt.
Most likely bag salt @ $6.50 for 50lb/bag.

18 bags will do it i think applied $200

They only want about 30,000sq salted (entrances-main parking area)

I don't have alot of storage i could probably fit about 5-6 pallets of salt on my property.
Pallet 54bags @$351


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## jasburrito (Jul 9, 2014)

prezek said:


> 80 to salt 1.5 acres?? That's really bad advice no matter what part of the state/country you are in.


 thats was for 1 inch trigger zero tolerance! Your not gonna put out a 1000 1500 pounds of salt every hr all day. Read the info. Look up 1 inch trigger zero tolerance. Not sure you know about it?


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Tom2393 said:


> You guys are nuts lol
> and a 7 1/2. Meyer plow.
> 
> $230 1-3"
> ...


And literally every guy but 1 that has responded to you is in a position to help. 1 guy lives on the moon.

Get a set of buyers wings for that plow.
Jump through whatever hoop you need to, to get a vbox spreader, sell your soul if need be. Its oct, dont go into the season with a tailgate and bags. Theres alot of places to get bulk salt.
Your prices are high for the area.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

jasburrito said:


> thats was for 1 inch trigger zero tolerance! Your not gonna put out a 1000 1500 pounds of salt every hr all day. Read the info. Look up 1 inch trigger zero tolerance. Not sure you know about it?


My advise to you is to research 0 tolerance through the search feature on this site. Grab a beer and read and read and read. You literally have no idea what your talking about.
1000 to 1100 is spot on.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jasburrito said:


> thats was for 1 inch trigger zero tolerance! Your not gonna put out a 1000 1500 pounds of salt every hr all day. Read the info. Look up 1 inch trigger zero tolerance. Not sure you know about it?


There is no such thing as zero tolerance.

And the guy that made $30k from one gas station is known as CityTow.

Just stop while you're behind. You know not what you speak of.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hypothetically...if premium plowers are charging $70/hour, what would a plower that charges $140/hour be termed?


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hypothetically...if premium plowers are charging $70/hour, what would a plower that charges $140/hour be termed?


PS plowers???


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hypothetically...if premium plowers are charging $70/hour, what would a plower that charges $140/hour be termed?


@Defcon 5 ?


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hypothetically...if premium plowers are charging $70/hour, what would a plower that charges $140/hour be termed?


You could sub it out to 2 premium plowers and get done twice as fast...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

prezek said:


> You could sub it out to 2 premium plowers and get done twice as fast...


Only in Missouri...


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Only in Missouri...


...Nevermind


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## jasburrito (Jul 9, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> There is no such thing as zero tolerance.
> 
> And the guy that made $30k from one gas station is known as CityTow.
> 
> Just stop while you're behind. You know not what you speak of.


I google searched plowsite zero tolerance. Pages of post come up. Example Ok, let's start by looking at the distinct types of billing (or pricing): Per push, per inch, per season (seasonal). There is also hourly, which is self explanatory.

First, let's look at Seasonal and Per Inch:

Seasonal - "I will charge you $xxx which will be payment in full for the whole season." There are many variations of this; including -Up to so much snow or so many trips and then additional charges will accrue.

Per Inch - "I will charge you $xxx for the total number of inches of snow that falls in a particular amount of time." Not many will use this method; mostly places that have a "zero tolerance" for snow accumulation.

Per Push - I will charge you $xxx for each time I plow your (driveway, parking lot etc). Again, there are many variations of this. There seem to be two that are the most common:

1. Charge the same amount each time you are there and plow every so many inches - whatever you and the customer agree on.

2. Plow as many or as few times as you choose during a storm and charge based on the total amount of snow that fell. This is where the incremental pricing comes in, such as:

3" to 6" - $50
over 6" to 9" - $75
over 9" to 12" - $100
over 12" - $100 plus $5 an inch over 12"

So, if 10" of snow falls during a storm, you would bill the customer $100, regardless of how many times you plowed it (all at once or twice - 5" each time). To me, this method allows you to be more efficient and decide when you need to plow and how often. I've seen times I'd want to push every five inches (wet and heavy snow) and times I'd plow 14" all at once (light and fluffy). I'd feel pretty foolish plowing 5" of light, fluffy stuff while it was still snowing, but I'd feel dumber than a rock trying to push 14" of "concrete".

Of all the methods - Per Push is really the best method for the beginner. It avoids the guesswork and risk of the seasonal. But, at the same time, seasonals can be good money makers, besides providing a positive cash flow (I just got a check yesterday for a seasonal "paid in full". Now I've can get the tires I've been kind of waiting to buy,) Seasonals also provide a hedge for those "light' years - like we've had the past couple years. I have a feeling he'll "win" this year, though.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jasburrito said:


> I google searched plowsite zero tolerance. Pages of post come up. Example Ok, let's start by looking at the distinct types of billing (or pricing): Per push, per inch, per season (seasonal). There is also hourly, which is self explanatory.
> 
> First, let's look at Seasonal and Per Inch:
> 
> ...


Gee thanks for the edumacation...I was not aware of any of this.

Still doesn't negate the fact that zero tolerance is impossible.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

I will be eagerly awaiting marks post...

Edit...a second late


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## jasburrito (Jul 9, 2014)

Met a local with two nice f250s and boss v plows. He is a sub. Gets payed $70 an hr and seemed very happy with it. I gave him premium status vs the guys with rusted junk. I said i never bid plowing. Its for his friend. So why do i got to be right. Huge fun. Subject of zero. Guy on youtube made his most money off 1 inch zero tolerance sites. But whatever. I must not be that smart cuz i am gonna go mow some lawns for peanuts. Mosty mow for doctors lawyer's and plow guys. Lol.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

jasburrito said:


> Met a local with two nice f250s and boss v plows. He is a sub. Gets payed $70 an hr and seemed very happy with it. I gave him premium status vs the guys with rusted junk. I said i never bid plowing. Its for his friend. So why do i got to be right. Huge fun. Thanks


thats absolutely fine. You are getting backlash because you said you never bid any snow, then proceed to try and give advice. Let the guys that have a ton of experience give sound advice. (I would not include myself in that group. Low snow area. Different ball game). In my area you can sub for a reputable company for 90-100 per hour. That means they are billing considerably more than that.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jasburrito said:


> Met a local with two nice f250s and boss v plows. He is a sub. Gets payed $70 an hr and seemed very happy with it.


This is showing your ignorance.

Contractors and subs do not get the same rate for plowing. You stated "premium plowers" which means contractors to me.

Sure, subcontractors are going to get $70\hour. But the contract holder isn't.

Next, you seem to equate nice looking equipment with being a premium plower. Anyone can get a loan to buy nice equipment. Check out the failure rate of biznesses within the first year, first 5 years, etc. Can they maintain that nice equipment for a long time?



jasburrito said:


> Subject of zero. Guy on youtube made his most money off 1 inch zero tolerance sites.


But I've said there is no such thing as zero tolerance and you won't explain why I am wrong?

And do you really believe everything you read on the interweb just because Abe Lincoln told you too?

Dude from Philly said he made $50k in 2 days at some account. Or could...whichever. He was full of it.

Anyway about it, the advice you provided to the OP was faulty, because:
#1 You've never estimated snow before
#2 You don't know the going rates in your area
#3 You don't know the going rates in the OP's area. 
#4 Plowing always gets a lot more per hour than mowing. 
#5 Salting gets more than plowing which is way more than mowing.

Still waiting on your rebuttal regarding zero tolerance. Although I know why you won't debate me on it.


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## jasburrito (Jul 9, 2014)

It was his first post. I was the P.S idiot availble to help! Thanks for all great advice. Sorry if i had good fun too.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

jasburrito said:


> I google searched plowsite zero tolerance. Pages of post come up. Example Ok, let's start by looking at the distinct types of billing (or pricing): Per push, per inch, per season (seasonal). There is also hourly, which is self explanatory.
> 
> First, let's look at Seasonal and Per Inch:
> 
> ...


By any chance are you a millennial?
I ask this not to be offensive, but you're arguing with someone who has been bidding snow longer than you've been on this planet.
You google something to try and make your point.
You said you were leaving and now
You're back.
You're like the kid that went to college to got a masters degree and goes and argues with someone that's been doing it forever, ya you may have that really expensive piece of paper, but you have absolutely no qualifications/ experience.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

alright guys, let's move on and get back on point, please


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## Drock78 (Sep 22, 2011)

In my opinion, the closest thing I've come to "zero tolerance" was when I was a sub at a consumer's power property. They wanted someone on site from the time it started snowing until done snowing and salted.


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## Dirtebiker (Nov 10, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hypothetically...if premium plowers are charging $70/hour, what would a plower that charges $140/hour be termed?


Dirtebiker


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

jasburrito said:


> I have never bid plowing. But i am thinking 100 to plow and 80 to salt. With 1 inch trigger. If the triggers higher. Charge more.


If you dont know, dont offer.


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