# Shopping Malls



## sectlandscaping

I been contacted to bid snow removal and landscaping for a few shopping malls. I dont have a problem figuring the landscaping numbers.

The issue is what kind of equipment is needed for snow removal? By the looks I need a loader at each site with at least 2 trucks. Without the loader 3-5 trucks?

I do have a skid and a buddy has a kubota. These both seem to small for the bigger lot but would be sufficient for the smaller 2. I could get a dozer by winter if needed. I plan on bidding all but I already informed them that I probably only can do 1. I dont want to depend on subs for the others. That was a problem this year.

Not looking for prices but just some advice from people that did large lots.

how long you think it will take on a average storm with various equipment?

1 is 259,253 sq ft.

2 is 117,916 sq ft

3 is 117,986 sq ft

http://g.co/maps/s47g7
http://g.co/maps/t2ctk
http://g.co/maps/8zepq


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## cmo18

The big ones you will need 2 loaders minimum if not more...depending on how much snow you get per storm, plus where are you going to stack it? Hauling snow? 

If your not salting a loader will scrape nicely but include the scraping when estimating. Sounds like your over your head imo..

I wouldnt even put trucks, loaders are a must


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## sectlandscaping

Whoever did the biggest lot this year didnt have a loader because I was doing 2 businesses across the street and drove by it dozen of times. I'm not sure about the others.

Theres a slightly bigger lot right next to this one. That is done with 3 trucks and a loader. I seen them out of there in 3-5 hours.

I did contact a few excavation companies about renting a loader for each lot and subcontracting the whole season too. This is a back up plan if I get more then one.

This winter the biggest storm we had was 8''. Other then that we didnt have more then 4''. I was doing a 50,000 sqft office building and didnt spend more then a 1 1/2 hours there.


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## ford6.9

3 loaders 3 trucks on the first,
one loader and a floating truck on second,
and 2 trucks on the 3rd just keep it running non stop.

All the loading docks and other buildings included? 

The first one needs the loaders for the ability to carry everything to the ends. Use the trucks down the lanes.


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## grandview

Equipment you can get.What's more important is people to run it. This isn't like doing some little strip mall .They expect you to be done before the workers get there. And during Christmas season you better have twice as much equipment as normal. Also what do the specs say if you don't get done? Can they hire someone else and bill you for it?


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## Luther

ford6.9;1468607 said:


> 3 loaders 3 trucks on the first,
> one loader and a floating truck on second,
> and 2 trucks on the 3rd just keep it running non stop.
> 
> All the loading docks and other buildings included?
> 
> The first one needs the loaders for the ability to carry everything to the ends. Use the trucks down the lanes.


:laughing:

You best have plenty of other work for those guys, or they won't be happy campers.

With that much artillery expect to complete this in 42 minutes with a 3" snow fall.


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## sectlandscaping

TCLA;1468625 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> You best have plenty of other work for those guys, or they won't be happy campers.
> 
> With that much artillery expect to complete this in 42 minutes with a 3" snow fall.


So you think thats overkill?

2 of the lots are 3 acres. I dont see why 2 trucks couldnt do that in less then 3 hours.

A sub that I been working with for years thinks he can do the biggest with 3 trucks. I do doubt that but its possible.

I only have a proposal, doesnt say anything about penalties. Theres no trigger or time to be done by but it does say be there from start to finish.


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## Luther

sectlandscaping;1468659 said:


> So you think thats overkill?


This is overkill...



ford6.9;1468607 said:


> 3 loaders 3 trucks on the first,
> one loader and a floating truck on second,
> and 2 trucks on the 3rd just keep it running non stop.


My basic math skills tells me this equals 4-loaders (with pushers I assume) and 6 plow trucks....for 11.37 acres?!?


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## snorider075

I figured skidloader for detail work along curbs islands in parking lot, 1 loader with 16-18ft pusher box, salt truck with blade, and pick up floating around. What about walks? Typically a loader with 18ft box can do 2 acres per hr 0-4'' event. You want to find that perfect balance between and how fast you can do it with the least overhead. Like was stated above would need more equipment for the Christmas shopping season. Can you store salt there?How close are they together?


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## sectlandscaping

There in a ten mile radius. The biggest lot is a mile away from me. 

I would hope I could store salt but it hasnt been discussed. 

The big lot has the walks covered. The only thing that would be exposed to snow would be the ramps and loading docks. The other 2 I have to measure. I would like to use the skid and kubota on the walks of them.


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## Luther

Do you really need to store salt on this site? It's only a 5-6 ton drop...

Unless of course having a hub there is beneficial to supply whatever else you may have going on in the area. I don't know what kind of position you are in.

Being a Mall they may object as it will take up valuable parking space. Especially during the holidays.

Good luck to you.


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## dfd9

TCLA;1468670 said:


> This is overkill...
> 
> *My basic math skills* tells me this equals 4-loaders (with pushers I assume) and 6 plow trucks....for 11.37 acres?!?


There's your problem.

Should have used Million Man Math.

You have to admit, he would be able to do the job. :laughing:


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## Luther

No doubt he would be able to do the job. Thumbs Up

He'd shine on a 12-15" snowfall with that much equipment! :salute:

Dang...I knew I should have said "fuzzy math".


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## dfd9

TCLA;1468734 said:


> No doubt he would be able to do the job. Thumbs Up
> 
> He'd shine on a 12-15" snowfall with that much equipment! :salute:
> 
> Dang...I knew I should have said "fuzzy math".


Body shop repair bill might be on the high side, though. Lots of bumping going on with that many loaders and trucks.


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## Burkartsplow

1 decent size loader and 16 foot pusher on lot 1 with 2 trucks both with fisher xls plows.
I can do a 3 acre lot with 1 truck with an xls in 2 hrs. So I think 1 truck each for the other 2 lots.


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## cmo18

Burkartsplow;1468772 said:


> 1 decent size loader and 16 foot pusher on lot 1 with 2 trucks both with fisher xls plows.
> I can do a 3 acre lot with 1 truck with an xls in 2 hrs. So I think 1 truck each for the other 2 lots.


In a bigger snowfall, a 4 hour timeline is max it should take to plow a large commercial shopping center.

Trucks will not be able to handle that amount of snow and will very quickly run out of room. Truck for detail work, loaders for the serious snow moving.

Most likely a high traffic area as well, causing compact snow. A truck will not be able to scrape as well as a loader.

truck vs loader is what separates the big boys from the small boys.


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## trqjnky

TRUCKS ARE FASTER. get a diesel truck with a 9ft blade with wings. have a skid or loader (only one) to use for stacking snow. let teh trucks clear everything out to the sides. use the loader to put it where it needs to be. have a skid to do random cleaning and stacking. 

you guys and your loaders.


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## JD Dave

Isn't the big lot around 6 acres? I would put 1 tractor with a 12ft in there at most and it would still be the best plowed lot around. Listen to TCLA. You guys are giving the thread starter bad advice.


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## JD Dave

ford6.9;1468607 said:


> 3 loaders 3 trucks on the first,
> one loader and a floating truck on second,
> and 2 trucks on the 3rd just keep it running non stop.
> 
> All the loading docks and other buildings included?
> 
> The first one needs the loaders for the ability to carry everything to the ends. Use the trucks down the lanes.


Do you actually plow snow or just read about it?


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## RLM

Those are our average size sites with a truck (9.5 Fisher V), and a 14' pusher on a loader they can be in & out in less than 1 hr, all three of those could be done with just that equipment, it would be pushing it, maybe one other truck to help
Out. That truck & 14' loader do about 14 acres in 4 hrs, both operators are top notch though, both the truck & loader are also set up right & not under powered (truck has 7.3 diesel with chip, loader is 25,000 pushing a 14' Artic, could push an 18 according to Artic).


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## Luther

cmo18;1468791 said:


> A truck will not be able to scrape as well as a loader.


This is kind of funny too.


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## dfd9

cmo18;1468602 said:


> The big ones you will need 2 loaders minimum if not more...depending on how much snow you get per storm, plus where are you going to stack it? Hauling snow?
> 
> If your not salting a loader will scrape nicely but include the scraping when estimating. Sounds like your over your head imo..
> 
> I wouldnt even put trucks, loaders are a must


Loaders as in plural?

2 of the lots are only less than 3 acres. Depending on the layout and obstacles, I could plow that in a normal snowfall in 4-5 hours, with 1 truck. Let's say 2". Sure, more snow is going to take longer.

If anything, maybe 1 loader and truck for the 2 smaller lots, and 1 loader and a truck for the larger one. At maximum. And then have some other work lined up for them, or they're going to be a little upset getting called out for a couple three hours worth of work most of the time.

We are talking about loaders with pushers, right? Because if we're not, you're underutilizing a very expensive tool.

I did an L shaped lot, around 110K with about 2" on it earlier this year in 1.5 hours with a truck. That included pulling sidewalks, which is about a half hour.



cmo18;1468791 said:


> In a bigger snowfall, a 4 hour timeline is max it should take to plow a large commercial shopping center.
> 
> Trucks will not be able to handle that amount of snow and will very quickly run out of room. Truck for detail work, loaders for the serious snow moving.
> 
> Most likely a high traffic area as well, causing compact snow. A truck will not be able to scrape as well as a loader.
> 
> truck vs loader is what separates the big boys from the small boys.


Again, what are we talking when using the term "bigger snowfall". These lots are just not that big, why the massive overkill in equipment?

Are you talking about a pusher on the loader? What kind of pusher? Why do you say it will definitely scrape better? Better than what brand plow?



JD Dave;1468842 said:


> Do you actually plow snow or just read about it?


lol


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## JD Dave

I agree on the loader or tractor doing the large lot and a pickup doing the 2 smaller lots. I plow a small plaza 2.7 acres myself with a 9'2 Boss and then I jump in a single axle and spread close to 16 ton of salt so the pickup will have no trouble plowing 2 lots of that similar size.


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## Burkartsplow

cmo18;1468791 said:


> In a bigger snowfall, a 4 hour timeline is max it should take to plow a large commercial shopping center.
> 
> Trucks will not be able to handle that amount of snow and will very quickly run out of room. Truck for detail work, loaders for the serious snow moving.
> 
> Most likely a high traffic area as well, causing compact snow. A truck will not be able to scrape as well as a loader.
> 
> truck vs loader is what separates the big boys from the small boys.


I'm sorry I am not in the big boy club but a truck with an 10 foot plow can move a lot of snow and if you need snow stacked then do it after the storm. I think you were miss reading my answer. If they all had to be done at the same time and at different locations then you can put a loader and 2 trucks on the larger lot and if it not a bad snowfall a loader and truck will handle it easily. Then you can have one truck at both of the 3 acre lots which which can be done in 2 hours.


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## dfd9

Burkartsplow;1468929 said:


> if you need snow stacked then do it after the storm. I think you were miss reading my answer.


I know every region is different. But around here, this philosophy does not fly, especially if you try to charge the customer for stacking it when it could have been from the get-go.

Just something to think about.


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## sectlandscaping

Thanks for clarifying the amount of loaders needed. I was thinking to myself how can someone make money putting that much equipment on standby. 

I shouldnt have any problems with my trucks. I have two dual wheel f350s, one with a 10ft blizzard wideout and the other a 8ft fisher. Then I have a 2500 with a 8 ft fisher. My sub has 2 trucks and says he will have a 3rd by winter. I will also get another truck by then.

Do you guys have any information on what to look for when renting a loader from someone? I think it will be cheaper to get it from a excavation company then a rental place. From what I'm seeing the rates are, Ill probably just buy a used one at auction. This is only if I get the larger lot. I could the 2 smaller ones with the 6-8 trucks available. 

Anyways my bid probably wont be accepted. I'm still waiting on numbers for the loaders but already my seasonal rate is at $100,000.


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## snorider075

how many events do you guys average out there? push vs saltings


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## sectlandscaping

I do my seasonals at 15 pushes and 28 saltings. This year only had 5 pushes and 13 saltings. The annual snowfall is 38". Last year we had 20" the year before 98". Its really random....


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## snorider075

any clause with after so many pushes or inches accum of the season it goes to per push? Idk but 100,000 seems kinda steep?


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## sectlandscaping

yeah it does...lol, no low baller here. 

No its unlimited. 

Part of it is I might have to pay $3000 a month for the loader. I'm still waiting on numbers but that $15,000 right there.


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## snorider075

good luck keep us posted


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## windrowsnow

we do a shopping center thats 6.5 acres. we run a case ih ag tractor on it with a 8 foot box. on two to four inch storms using just that machine my guy is in and out in four hours then drives twenty miles to service another 3 locations. on bigger snows we run that and a pick up with 9 foot blade helps him for a few hours. i have another site thats just over two acres and a 8 foot blade with wings is able to knock it out in just under an hour and half.


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## Burkartsplow

dfd9;1468942 said:


> I know every region is different. But around here, this philosophy does not fly, especially if you try to charge the customer for stacking it when it could have been from the get-go.
> 
> Just something to think about.


But a loader on a 3 acre lot is overkill no matter what your region is. Stackv with plow and bring in loader every once in while to move snow around. Been doing it for years.


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## dfd9

Burkartsplow;1469126 said:


> But a loader on a 3 acre lot is overkill no matter what your region is. Stackv with plow and bring in loader every once in while to move snow around. Been doing it for years.


Huh, I've been overkilling lots for close to 14 seasons now.

We picked up 2 shopping malls because the previous contractor was doing it the way you recommend. This was back in '97. Our cost per push to the customer was twice what the previous contractor was, but when they ran the numbers, because we were using loaders, the customers cost per inch was close to half what it had been.

Looking at most of the lots I use loaders on, most are around the 2-5 acre mark. There's been times they have been on even smaller lots. But when they do the work of 2-3 trucks, that means I am not overkilling anything, because I am saving a lot of money by working smarter, not harder. Why would I want 2-3 times as many trucks as I do now? And have to find 2-3 times as many operators?

Sorry, but a blanket statement such as yours is short-sighted at best.


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## Bandit

I only have a proposal, doesnt say anything about penalties. Theres no trigger or time to be done by but it does say be there from start to finish.

I would ask for a copy of the contract so You know what You are up against and what they EXPECT from You .
When I was plowing , I alternated years on a Wally's and a Stop and and Shop and both were from dusting till the snow stopped .
I drove a F 650 and had a Lg. loader w/pusher to help me and a pick up with a sander in the area that stopped by to help .


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## snorider075

that changes things a bit for pricing. is this for same projected sites?


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## JD Dave

dfd9;1469169 said:


> Huh, I've been overkilling lots for close to 14 seasons now.
> 
> We picked up 2 shopping malls because the previous contractor was doing it the way you recommend. This was back in '97. Our cost per push to the customer was twice what the previous contractor was, but when they ran the numbers, because we were using loaders, the customers cost per inch was close to half what it had been.
> 
> Looking at most of the lots I use loaders on, most are around the 2-5 acre mark. There's been times they have been on even smaller lots. But when they do the work of 2-3 trucks, that means I am not overkilling anything, because I am saving a lot of money by working smarter, not harder. Why would I want 2-3 times as many trucks as I do now? And have to find 2-3 times as many operators?
> 
> Sorry, but a blanket statement such as yours is short-sighted at best.


I agree. Pickups do have their place but on any lot over 2 acres a loader will make a truck look silly. You also forgot to add that loaders are more reliable, cost less to maintain, depreciate less and cost less to insure.


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## dfd9

JD Dave;1469250 said:


> I agree. Pickups do have their place but on any lot over 2 acres a loader will make a truck look silly. *You also forgot to add that loaders are more reliable, cost less to maintain, depreciate less and cost less to insure.*


Doh!!!!

What was I thinking. Thumbs Up


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## trqjnky

Have you ever put brakes or tires on a loader???


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## TPC Services

dfd9;1468942 said:


> I know every region is different. But around here, this philosophy does not fly, especially if you try to charge the customer for stacking it when it could have been from the get-go.
> 
> Just something to think about.


Not to disagree with you here JDdave I think you always have great info when it comes to bigger commercial. But are we talking skid loaders or wheel loaders for these 2-3 acre lots. Because if we are talking wheel loaders that's over kill. I can charge the same amount for two trucks as I would could for one wheel loader and be done in the same amount of time. I better have 3-4 lots that same size in a mile radius for the wheel loader to then become profitable.

Stacking it know or being able to stack it later has no affect on how you charge your client!! As long as it gets done. Your charging around the same because it's going to take you around the same amount of time to stack it either way!! The only difference is you can get other things done that are priorities before your time deadlines our up or if your behind on another property and need to go get it caught up. Then go back and stack at your own convince as long as the client is ok with it. We discus with some of our clients about small staging areas to leave the snow by where we are to stack the snow and most are fine with it as long as it s not interfering with their customers trying to access the property.


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA

windrowsnow;1469099 said:


> we do a shopping center thats 6.5 acres. we run a case ih ag tractor on it with a 8 foot box. on two to four inch storms using just that machine my guy is in and out in four hours then drives twenty miles to service another 3 locations. on bigger snows we run that and a pick up with 9 foot blade helps him for a few hours. i have another site thats just over two acres and a 8 foot blade with wings is able to knock it out in just under an hour and half.


You drive a tractor 40 miles every storm?? What do you do on a 6-8"er, drive back and forth??


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## dfd9

TPC Services;1469593 said:


> Not to disagree with you here JDdave I think you always have great info when it comes to bigger commercial. But are we talking skid loaders or wheel loaders for these 2-3 acre lots.


But you are disagreeing with him, I think the only skidsteer Dave runs is at the farm.....maybe.

I'm referring to wheel loaders with pushers. 16' pushers.



TPC Services;1469593 said:


> Because if we are talking wheel loaders that's over kill.


Again, I disagree. It's been working for me for 14 seasons.



TPC Services;1469593 said:


> I can charge the same amount for two trucks as I would could for one wheel loader and be done in the same amount of time. I better have 3-4 lots that same size in a mile radius for the wheel loader to then become profitable.


Great, but I only have to pay one operator. One insurance payment. No extra taxes for employees, etc, etc, etc.

I do have that many lots, so it works great for me.



TPC Services;1469593 said:


> Stacking it know or being able to stack it later has no affect on how you charge your client!! As long as it gets done. Your charging around the same because it's going to take you around the same amount of time to stack it either way!!


This all depends. Some of the guys around here (the one we took the customer from) was charging extra to stack it later. We came in with equipment to get the job done RIGHT the first time, not later when and if we had time.

Some customers do want the job done the right way, the first time. They don't want piles staged all over the place, then equipment moving it around to where it should have gone in the first place.

And while you may be charging the same, you're losing money. If the work can be accomplished the right way the first time, you are saving money and fuel by not having to go back to do the job you should have done when you were there to begin with. I would tend to disagree with your last statement as well. Because the snow has now compacted and there is no air left in it. And if I have to move it, more than likely I need to use just the loader bucket, not the pusher box. Not to mention screwing around with traffic, potential for having to reapply salt, etc, etc, etc.

Always put the snow where it belongs the first time, especially when wet\close to freezing. Otherwise it's like trying to move a glacier.



TPC Services;1469593 said:


> The only difference is you can get other things done that are priorities before your time deadlines our up or if your behind on another property and need to go get it caught up. Then go back and stack at your own convince as long as the client is ok with it. We discus with some of our clients about small staging areas to leave the snow by where we are to stack the snow and most are fine with it as long as it s not interfering with their customers trying to access the property.


Then IMHO, you are underequipped for the work you are performing. As I said, you have the equipment to do the job right the first time.

What happens when in a "normal" season, snow starts coming day after day, or even a couple days apart? Have you ever plowed 20 out of 30 days in a month? I have. There is no time to move snow when it is convenient. You're too busy plowing or salting or repairing equipment or sleeping. Your staging areas will be full. And your theory about taking the same amount of time goes out the window even faster.

Like I said, if I am able to place the snow where it should be right away because I am "overkilling" on equipment, and do it for the same cost as you can with 2 trucks, I can walk away with an awful lot of your customers because they will be getting better service for the same price because I am using the proper equipment. It has nothing to do with overkill, it is all about efficiency.


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## Burkartsplow

I continue reading and if you have a row of 3 acre lots within a close proximity I can see running the loader and having a truck run around the lots and do detail work. I had my blinders on when I first started typing and forgot to realize there are different solutions for different scenarios which has to be taken into consideration. In my case I have a bunch of 2 to 3 acre lots spread out over 5 to 6 mile radius and getting around with a truck and keeping the lots clean and then going back to stack snow after hours works best for me. I am one to admit when I am wrong and I am somewhat wrong here, but I am also somewhat right. All depends on the circumstance. On a side not I have lost 5 lbs this week working outside.


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## windrowsnow

NICHOLS LANDSCA;1469661 said:


> You drive a tractor 40 miles every storm?? What do you do on a 6-8"er, drive back and forth??


we park it there the day before a storm. once that lot is finished he hits the road to help the trucks out on our other lots. then takes the machine home when finished the machine tops out at around 25 mph its not a bad ride at all. on an all day event we would just keep the machine there constantly running then when that lot is finished he would come into town.


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## cmo18

Burkartsplow;1468929 said:


> I'm sorry I am not in the big boy club but a truck with an 10 foot plow can move a lot of snow and if you need snow stacked then do it after the storm. I think you were miss reading my answer. If they all had to be done at the same time and at different locations then you can put a loader and 2 trucks on the larger lot and if it not a bad snowfall a loader and truck will handle it easily. Then you can have one truck at both of the 3 acre lots which which can be done in 2 hours.


I was not referring to you, just an overall. I'm not a big boy either

In my area, large lot owners want a loader, we average 135" of snow a year 20 events. 
Some even put a max time to plow it. They expect the snow to be stacked as well or there going to loose parking spaces.

And a loader can scrape ice and frozen snow up better then my plow. I use my tractor all the time to scrape or break of ice with the loader


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## Bossman 92

If I put a loader on one of my 3 acre lots I would be laughed out of town. Everyone is different, every area is different, but if it works for you AWESOME! 

I WANT a loader sooo bad I cant stand it. BUT...I cant justify one. BTW, my biggest lot is just over 11 acres, with 8 others over 3 acres.


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## JD Dave

Bossman 92;1473737 said:


> If I put a loader on one of my 3 acre lots I would be laughed out of town. Everyone is different, every area is different, but if it works for you AWESOME!
> 
> I WANT a loader sooo bad I cant stand it. BUT...I cant justify one. BTW, my biggest lot is just over 11 acres, with 8 others over 3 acres.


Let them laugh. It's only been the last 10 years that people havn't laughed at us for plowing with farm tractors and that's only because everyone went out and bought one. Loaders are the same deal, get your routes tight and let 1 guy and 1 machine do the work of 3 or 4 pickups. No one will be laughing then and who cares if they do.


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## Bossman 92

JD Dave;1473739 said:


> Let them laugh. It's only been the last 10 years that people havn't laughed at us for plowing with farm tractors and that's only because everyone went out and bought one. Loaders are the same deal, get your routes tight and let 1 guy and 1 machine do the work of 3 or 4 pickups. No one will be laughing then and who cares if they do.


I have very tight routes but my big accounts are spaced out to where its just not dooable. I do have 2 decent lots ( a 3 acre and a 4 acre) within a mile of each other, but our average snowfall is not reliable enough to buy a loader. Everything here is per push, and it just doesnt add up to a loader ( and I've done the math a hundred times) :crying: 
I wish we could estabilish some decent seasonals, but I dont see it happining.


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