# I Need Help With Quoting Commercial Snow Plowing & Salting



## Cameron R

Hello everyone!

I'm 22 years old and am fairly new to snow removal/ice management. I've been involved with grass cutting/landscaping since I was 13 but have only been doing residential snow removal for the last 4 seasons and got my first commercial account 3 seasons ago. I was asked to bid on what would be my largest commercial parking lot and I was looking for some advice on pricing. I am in the Southeastern Michigan area. 

My current set up is a 2019 Silverado 2500HD with a Western MVP3 V-plow and a Western Tornado V-Box Spreader.

Currently in my area fuel is approximately $3.00 per gallon (likely to go up) and I can get 1 ton of salt for about $95.00

The parking lot is approximately 40,000 square feet. Which isn't huge but it is an awkward lot. It has many curbs/walks and a peninsula, and it would be difficult to plow even 30 feet in a straight line. The peninsula connects to store frontage walkways and a large area that would need to be shoveled/salted by hand. If I had to guess I would say the store frontage that would need to be done by hand is equal to about 3 standard 2 car driveways. They want everything on a per push/per salting basis. These are the numbers I am coming up with. Does this look right to anyone else?

$200 Per push for plowing the parking lot up to 6 inches (extra $40 for every inch past 6 inches)
$100 To clear AND salt all of the walkways/peninsula/store frontage (using a bagged magnesium calcium blend, likely 3 50lb bags. $12 per bag is my cost)
$175 To salt the entire parking lot. (My understanding is that a heavy salt application for 40,000 square feet would be about 1,500 lbs)

Let me know what you guys think as I have very little experience with quoting commercial lots like this.

I can send a satellite picture if needed but it probably won't show the full complexity of the parking lot layout.


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## BUFF

Cameron R said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I'm 22 years old and am fairly new to snow removal/ice management. I've been involved with grass cutting/landscaping since I was 13 but have only been doing residential snow removal for the last 4 seasons and got my first commercial account 3 seasons ago. I was asked to bid on what would be my largest commercial parking lot and I was looking for some advice on pricing. I am in the Southeastern Michigan area.
> 
> My current set up is a 2019 Silverado 2500HD with a Western MVP3 V-plow and a Western Tornado V-Box Spreader.
> 
> Currently in my area fuel is approximately $3.00 per gallon (likely to go up) and I can get 1 ton of salt for about $95.00
> 
> The parking lot is approximately 40,000 square feet. Which isn't huge but it is an awkward lot. It has many curbs/walks and a peninsula, and it would be difficult to plow even 30 feet in a straight line. The peninsula connects to store frontage walkways and a large area that would need to be shoveled/salted by hand. If I had to guess I would say the store frontage that would need to be done by hand is equal to about 3 standard 2 car driveways. They want everything on a per push/per salting basis. These are the numbers I am coming up with. Does this look right to anyone else?
> 
> $200 Per push for plowing the parking lot up to 6 inches (extra $40 for every inch past 6 inches)
> $100 To clear AND salt all of the walkways/peninsula/store frontage (using a bagged magnesium calcium blend, likely 3 50lb bags. $12 per bag is my cost)
> $175 To salt the entire parking lot. (My understanding is that a heavy salt application for 40,000 square feet would be about 1,500 lbs)
> 
> Let me know what you guys think as I have very little experience with quoting commercial lots like this.
> 
> I can send a satellite picture if needed but it probably won't show the full complexity of the parking lot layout.


Since rates vary from area to area my only comment is 1,500# of salt for an acreish lot is very heavy.


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## m_ice

Can you post a satellite image of the lot?


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## Cameron R

m_ice said:


> Can you post a satellite image of the lot?


Yes will do


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## Cameron R

Here is the satellite Image. Pink represents the walkways that need to be done by hand. The yellow is a covered car port that will also need plowing/salting


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## Cameron R

m_ice said:


> Can you post a satellite image of the lot?


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## BUFF

Cameron R said:


> Here is the satellite Image. Pink represents the walkways that need to be done by hand. The yellow is a covered car port that will also need plowing/salting


Not mulch space for stacking snow, you may want to think aboot how to deal with removing from the property if/when it becomes a problem


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## Cameron R

BUFF said:


> Since rates vary from area to area my only comment is 1,500# of salt for an acreish lot is very heavy.


How much salt would you use for a standard snow dusting? Under an inch for example, or after plowing a bigger storm?


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## RichardBongIII

Cameron R said:


> Here is the satellite Image. Pink represents the walkways that need to be done by hand. The yellow is a covered car port that will also need plowing/salting


Where do you plan on putting the snow?


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## Cameron R

BUFF said:


> Not mulch space for stacking snow, you may want to think aboot how to deal with removing from the property if/when it becomes a problem


Yes I noticed that also. Unfortunately I have no idea where I could take the snow. Do most major cities have a location for that? I have a dump trailer and Toro Dingo TX-1000 I could use.


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## jonniesmooth

Why are they looking for bids at the end of January?
My bet is they think the current guy is too high. Because the lot is a complete pain to do and they probably aren't any better to deal with.


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## RichardBongIII

It could also just be when the contract expired too.


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## Cameron R

RichardBongIII said:


> Where do you plan on putting the snow?


The green X's that I added are pretty much the only places I can think of. Which just adds to the complexity of this property.


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## Cameron R

jonniesmooth said:


> Why are they looking for bids at the end of January?
> My bet is they think the current guy is too high. Because the lot is a complete pain to do and they probably aren't any better to deal with.


Yeah I thought that was strange also but I have no Idea why. I would assume they either think the other guy is expensive or the other guy doesn't want to do it anymore.


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## RichardBongIII

Cameron R said:


> The green X's that I added are pretty much the only places I can think of. Which just adds the complexity of this property.


The Crubs in those areas might make it difficult to stack snow easily.


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## BUFF

Cameron R said:


> How much salt would you use for a standard snow dusting? Under an inch for example, or after plowing a bigger storm?


Salt is sparingly used were am at but I've read on here 900-1000# per acre is the number used. Some storms the weather is in your favor and you'll use 1/2 of that, other storms you may use more per app.
Treating with salt is more than spreading it oot, it's paying attention to the weather which will tell you when to salt and how mulch is needed.


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## BUFF

Cameron R said:


> Yes I noticed that also. Unfortunately I have no idea where I could take the snow. Do most major cities have a location for that? I have a dump trailer and Toro Dingo TX-1000 I could use.


Would think city's have their own dump sight and contractors have to find their own dump sites which you'd have to pay to dump. 
Yeah the dump trailer and dingo would work but it would take you for ever to remove it. You're better off finding someone you can sub that out to if/when needed. That way you don't have to deal with any of the logistics and you'll make 30% off the sub. I'd suggest see who's hauling snow in the area and contact them to see if they'll haul for you.


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## Cameron R

BUFF said:


> Salt is sparingly used were am at but I've read on here 900-1000# per acre is the number used. Some storms the weather is in your favor and you'll use 1/2 of that, other storms you may use more per app.
> Treating with salt is more than spreading it oot, it's paying attention to the weather which will tell you when to salt and how mulch is needed.


Yeah that's kinda what I figured. Where I am temps have been in the teens and single digits so everyone has been going pretty heavy on the salt. I just want to make sure I don't quote it assuming I can always use the smallest amount of salt needed.


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## BUFF

Cameron R said:


> Yeah that's kinda what I figured. Where I am temps have been in the teens and single digits so everyone has been going pretty heavy on the salt. I just want to make sure I don't quote it assuming I can always use the smallest amount of salt needed.


Been cold at night here too, been between -2 to 5* at night and low 20's-hi 30's in the day. But when it wasn't snowing this week ( 2 storms) the sun was cooking off the snow/ice, ootwest it could be 10* with full solar and it cooks off. 
I know you get a fraction of the sun we get which is why more salt is used and it's expected too.


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## RichardBongIII

BUFF said:


> Been cold at night here too, been between -2 to 5* at night and low 20's-hi 30's in the day. But when it wasn't snowing this week ( 2 storms) the sun was cooking off the snow/ice, ootwest it could be 10* with full solar and it cooks off.
> I know you get a fraction of the sun we get which is why more salt is used and it's expected too.


I think the real issue is the angle of the sun at your location more then an east or west thing. Colorado is below Michigan and therefore gets more direct sunlight in the winter becuase it is closer to the equator when compared to Michigan.


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## BUFF

RichardBongIII said:


> I think the real issue is the angle of the sun at your location more then an east or west thing. Colorado is below Michigan and therefore gets more direct sunlight in the winter becuase it is closer to the equator when compared to Michigan.


Colo is also close to a mile closer to the sun and we average 300 days sunshine vs aboot half that in Meatchicken.


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## Mark Oomkes

RichardBongIII said:


> I think the real issue is the angle of the sun at your location more then an east or west thing. Colorado is below Michigan and therefore gets more direct sunlight in the winter becuase it is closer to the equator when compared to Michigan.


Lol...again with not having a clue.

Elevation and moisture content.

Also, sublimation

Yeah, I know, you're worthless degrees don't do squat to help in the real world.


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## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> Elevation and moisture content.


Yes our wet snow is probably on the fluffy side for you and our dry snow is as dry as the salt dust on overly salted lots in the rust belt...... :laugh:


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## Cameron R

lol yes I know the amount of sun greatly affects how much salt to use. What did you guys think of my prices for the lot? I understand prices differ by area but any input even if it isn't accurate to my area would be appreciated. It is my understanding that my area is about $125 per plow hour, and I mentioned salt is about $95 per ton.


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## RichardBongIII

Mark Oomkes said:


> Lol...again with not having a clue.
> 
> Elevation and moisture content.
> 
> Also, sublimation
> 
> Yeah, I know, you're worthless degrees don't do squat to help in the real world.


LOL-- is on you. Elevation doesn't affect the amount of sunlight you recieve. Adiabetic cooling explains why the atmosphere is colder at 10,000ft than at 2,500Ft above sea level. The Atacama desert in Chile is at an average height of 7,900 ft above sea level and it is the driest place in the world. So, altitude doesnt necessarily make your climate more moist.

Sublimation only describes why snow change from soild to gases form by passing the liquid phase and you won't be changing the amount of sun light that is avaible at your longitude. The fact is that you're just explaining why on a sunny day below freezing why the snow pack is still being lost.

https://phys.org/news/2018-10-sublimation-solid-ice-quickly-evaporation.html
So, again while all of your statements might be true. They actually dont' answer the fundamental flaw I saw in Buff description of why the sun in Colorado was more intense. It wasn't due to him being further west of the Equator but actually being closer to the Equator than Michigan is. Thereby geting more direct sunlight and thus more thermal energy. The same reason the southern hemisphere is now in summer.

But nice try Mr. Wizard.


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## Mark Oomkes

RichardBongIII said:


> LOL-- is on you. Elevation doesn't affect the amount of sunlight you recieve. Adiabetic cooling explains why the atmosphere is colder at 10,000ft than at 2,500Ft above sea level. The Atacama desert in Chile is at an average height of 7,900 ft above sea level and it is the driest place in the world. So, altitude doesnt necessarily make your climate more moist.
> 
> Sublimation only describes why snow change from soild to gases form by passing the liquid phase and you won't be changing the amount of sun light that is avaible at your longitude. The fact is that you're just explaining why on a sunny day below freezing why the snow pack is still being lost.
> 
> https://phys.org/news/2018-10-sublimation-solid-ice-quickly-evaporation.html
> So, again while all of your statements might be true. They actually dont' answer the fundamental flaw I saw in Buff description of why the sun in Colorado was more intense. It wasn't due to him being further west of the Equator but actually being closer to the Equator than Michigan is. Thereby geting more direct sunlight and thus more thermal energy. The same reason the southern hemisphere is now in summer.
> 
> But nice try Mr. Wizard.


So clueless...


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## RichardBongIII

Cameron R said:


> lol yes I know the amount of sun greatly affects how much salt to use. What did you guys think of my prices for the lot? I understand prices differ by area but any input even if it isn't accurate to my area would be appreciated. It is my understanding that my area is about $125 per plow hour, and I mentioned salt is about $95 per ton.


Don't forget to add in the fact that your snow stacking space is limited so you will need to remove more snow.


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## RichardBongIII

Mark Oomkes said:


> So clueless...


Whatever you want Mr. Wizard...


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## Mark Oomkes

RichardBongIII said:


> LOL-- is on you. Elevation doesn't affect the amount of sunlight you recieve. Adiabetic cooling explains why the atmosphere is colder at 10,000ft than at 2,500Ft above sea level. The Atacama desert in Chile is at an average height of 7,900 ft above sea level and it is the driest place in the world. So, altitude doesnt necessarily make your climate more moist.
> 
> Sublimation only describes why snow change from soild to gases form by passing the liquid phase and you won't be changing the amount of sun light that is avaible at your longitude. The fact is that you're just explaining why on a sunny day below freezing why the snow pack is still being lost.
> 
> https://phys.org/news/2018-10-sublimation-solid-ice-quickly-evaporation.html
> So, again while all of your statements might be true. They actually dont' answer the fundamental flaw I saw in Buff description of why the sun in Colorado was more intense. It wasn't due to him being further west of the Equator but actually being closer to the Equator than Michigan is. Thereby geting more direct sunlight and thus more thermal energy. The same reason the southern hemisphere is now in summer.
> 
> But nice try Mr. Wizard.


How can one be "west of the Equator"?

Do you even read the **** you type?

You needto quit while you're behind.


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## RichardBongIII

Mark Oomkes said:


> How can one be "west of the Equator"?
> 
> Do you even read the **** you type?


You can walk along west or east on the Equator... So Colorado can be further West of your position relative to the equator. Is that percise enough for you????


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## Mark Oomkes

RichardBongIII said:


> You can walk along west or east on the Equator... So Colorado can be further West of your position relative to the equator. Is that percise enough for you????


The Equator circles the earth east or west...there is no way to be east ot west of it...only north or south of it.

Lmao...


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## BUFF

Cameron R said:


> lol yes I know the amount of sun greatly affects how much salt to use. What did you guys think of my prices for the lot? I understand prices differ by area but any input even if it isn't accurate to my area would be appreciated. It is my understanding that my area is about $125 per plow hour, and I mentioned salt is about $95 per ton.


Pricing would be average to the low side here.


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## RichardBongIII

Mark Oomkes said:


> The Equator circles the earth east or west...there is no way to be east ot west of it...only north or south of it.


Yes, but you can be further east or west of specific point on the equator while being yourself on the same line.


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## Hydromaster

The suns rays are more intense with the thinner altitude.
We found that the direct UV levels at 8,500 feet in Vail, Colorado, were approximately 60 percent higher than at sea level in New York.

As for salting your parking lot you may want to go on the higher application side so you don’t have as much snow to remove from the lot you can melt it off with salt.

you could pack some snow around the dumpster but you’re gonna have to allow enough room for the delivery truck to get around. 

You might be able to fudge little snow around the perimeter but that’s tough on the landscaping


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## Mark Oomkes

RichardBongIII said:


> Yes, but you can be further east or west of specific point on the equator while being yourself on the same line.


That changes NOTHING in regards to the sun's intensity.

You're a joke...you're wrong, you know it and you keep digging yourself in deeper.


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## RichardBongIII

Hydromaster said:


> The suns rays are more intense with the thinner altitude.
> We found that the direct UV levels at 8,500 feet in Vail, Colorado, were approximately 60 percent higher than at sea level in New York.


Yeah, well that is true--- but, not a big concern since snow reflects up 80% of the UV light it recieves in most conditions. 
https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/radiation-ultraviolet-(uv)


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## Hydromaster

You’re gonna wear that shovel out


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## Hydromaster

Cameron R said:


> Here is the satellite Image. Pink represents the walkways that need to be done by hand. The yellow is a covered car port that will also need plowing/salting


I'd start stacking my snow in these areas.
in the corner by the entryway and start losing those parking spots and then along this back area from the dumpster towards the entryway and when the parking spots get too full remove the snow.


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## Hydromaster

Might even sacrifice a couple of parking spots in front in a corner and start stacking snowing there too and once it gets overwhelming o r the manager doesn’t like it explain to him how it’s gonna cost him to have it removed that’s really the only other choice.

Some guys might get their hands on a payloader or know somebody who’s operating one in the neighborhood and then hire a couple of tandem dump trucks to haul the snow away.
a lot of the truck drivers I know of or where the snow dumb sorry I could help you out there too.

call for pricing so you have an idea what is it going to cost when you talk to them.


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## Cameron R

prezek said:


> What type of facility? I have a smaller pain in the neck lot that I can push 2 back corners off into the grass but in front of the building, they lose a spot or 2 of parking in each corner almost every storm…I'd say pricing is a tad low, but if your schedule isn't full and you're trying to gain experience, go for it. However long you think it'll take be sure to add a buffer. Rarely will it take less time than you think in your head…The end of January switch would concern me slightly…


Thank you! There are 3 businesses in the building. A restaurant, a jewerly store, and i cant remember the third.


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## Cameron R

Hydromaster said:


> Might even sacrifice a couple of parking spots in front in a corner and start stacking snowing there too and once it gets overwhelming o r the manager doesn't like it explain to him how it's gonna cost him to have it removed that's really the only other choice.
> 
> Some guys might get their hands on a payloader or know somebody who's operating one in the neighborhood and then hire a couple of tandem dump trucks to haul the snow away.
> a lot of the truck drivers I know of or where the snow dumb sorry I could help you out there too.
> 
> call for pricing so you have an idea what is it going to cost when you talk to them.


Yeah that's what I am thinking also, I hate to take up parking spots as there already aren't very many in this lot but it's probably unavoidable.


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## BUFF

Cameron R said:


> Yeah that's what I am thinking also, I hate to take up parking spots as there already aren't very many in this lot but it's probably unavoidable.


Have you noticed were the current contractor is stack or asked the property owner where they want it stacked? 
If you get that info you can include a screen shot of the areas where it's be stacked in your bid along with the scope of service as long as it makes sense. If not you need to come with what makes sense and show those areas. A few things to remember when stacking snow, don't cover storm drains, stack in areas away from entrances (street and building), don't stack near handicap parking and don't stack is areas that are high points so melt off doesn't refreeze which would require additional salt retreatments. Not all these suggested aren't always an option and you need to figure oot which area is the best for both party's. Losing a few parking places is a reality in most lots and all you can do is minimize how many.
Also a side note, I'm sure you've figured out threads can take off on a tangent and don't let it get under your hide. There are extremely knowledgeable professional's on this site that are more than willing to share their personal experience and there's those that don't plow professionally or ever have and their knowledge base is from YouToob videos or theory based. The latter of the two can feed you misinformation and when this happens it's not uncommon for someone to call them out on it.
Welcome to the site.


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## Cameron R

BUFF said:


> Have you noticed were the current contractor is stack or asked the property owner where they want it stacked?
> If you get that info you can include a screen shot of the areas where it's be stacked in your bid along with the scope of service as long as it makes sense. If not you need to come with what makes sense and show those areas. A few things to remember when stacking snow, don't cover storm drains, stack in areas away from entrances (street and building), don't stack near handicap parking and don't stack is areas that are high points so melt off doesn't refreeze which would require additional salt retreatments. Not all these suggested aren't always an option and you need to figure oot which area is the best for both party's. Losing a few parking places is a reality in most lots and all you can do is minimize how many.
> Also a side note, I'm sure you've figured out threads can take off on a tangent and don't let it get under your hide. There are extremely knowledgeable professional's on this site that are more than willing to share their personal experience and there's those that don't plow professionally or ever have and their knowledge base is from YouToob videos or theory based. The latter of the two can feed you misinformation and when this happens it's not uncommon for someone to call them out on it.
> Welcome to the site.


It kinda seems like the contractor is just spreading it around XD. although we have had a very light year so far (only 2 storms between 2 and 4 inches) so there aren't many designated piles. looks like they just windrow everything to the perimeter of the lot all the way around. Thanks for the advice on discussing with the owner where snow will be placed. I am sure it will save an argument later XD.

And yes lol I see things can get sidetracked XD. It's okay though I appreciate any and all advice.


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## RichardBongIII

I think the one issue everyone is overlooking is how well does this location fit into your current route?


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## Cameron R

RichardBongIII said:


> I think the one issue everyone is overlooking is how well does this location fit into your current route?


I think it fits in decently. I currently have 3 commercial accounts and it is right between 2 of them so i have to drive past it to get to the other one anyway


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## RichardBongIII

.


Cameron R said:


> I think it fits in decently. I currently have 3 commercial accounts and it is right between 2 of them so i have to drive past it to get to the other one anyway


Okay, so geographically it isn't an issue that is good news. But, what about time wise will you be able to do this lot the way the customer wants and not have any issues. For example will your Sander/Salter hold enough medium to cover your entire route under most conditions?


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## Cameron R

RichardBongIII said:


> .
> 
> Okay, so geographically it isn't an issue that is good news. But, what about time wise will you be able to do this lot the way the customer wants and not have any issues. For example will your Sander/Salter hold enough medium to cover your entire route under most conditions?


I should be able to handle it just fine. I was using a crappy hitchmount spreader until I upgraded this season to the 1.5 CU YD vbox for this very reason.


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## RichardBongIII

Cameron R said:


> I should be able to handle it just fine. I was using a crappy hitchmount spreader until I upgraded this season to the 1.5 CU YD vbox for this very reason.


So, my question is how big is your next biggest lot? And how fast do you clear that lot on average.


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## Cameron R

RichardBongIII said:


> So, my question is how big is your next biggest lot? And how fast do you clear that lot on average.


My second biggest is about 28,000 sq ft and it takes me about an hour to plow and salt if I have my brother to do the walks for me, add 15-20 minutes if I am solo. This is for an average manageable storm of probably 2-6 inches. so I figured with the size and complexity of this lot it would probably take me 2-3 hours for a full service, maybe longer if I am solo but I'm usually not


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## BossPlow2010

Cameron R said:


> My second biggest is about 28,000 sq ft and it takes me about an hour to plow and salt if I have my brother to do the walks for me, add 15-20 minutes if I am solo. This is for an average manageable storm of probably 2-6 inches. so I figured with the size and complexity of this lot it would probably take me 2-3 hours for a full service, maybe longer if I am solo but I'm usually not


50 minutes tops, with your setup
Don't push snow underneath the car park, push Out from it, don't block the hydrant, not dumpsters, grab a shake from the crappy shake and steak and you're all set…


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## Cameron R

So I turned my numbers in today and I was shocked by the response. Just as a reminder my total came out to $475.00 for a full service (plowing and salting the entire lot, and hand shoveling and salting the walks/store fronts). I was told my price wasn't even close and their current contractor does everything I quoted for $250! Does this even seem possible to you guys!?!? I know I don't have much experience but i've never been that off before. There must be something off right?


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## Mark Oomkes

Yes

No

Hard to say...but pricing is all over regionally and even locally as has been stated. You're going to get contractors that don't have a clue what their costs are and bid too high on some and too low on others. You have contractors that think they can make it up in volume. You have contractors that are unethical and will bill for services not performed or over bill for services performed. 

I might be too low, but I think you were off by at least $150. But again, prices vary immensely. 

Not giving specific numbers, but South Bend gets significantly more per ton for salt than GR. But GR gets more per hour for plowing than South Bend.


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## Cameron R

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes
> 
> No
> 
> Hard to say...but pricing is all over regionally and even locally as has been stated. You're going to get contractors that don't have a clue what their costs are and bid too high on some and too low on others. You have contractors that think they can make it up in volume. You have contractors that are unethical and will bill for services not performed or over bill for services performed.
> 
> I might be too low, but I think you were off by at least $150. But again, prices vary immensely.
> 
> Not giving specific numbers, but South Bend gets significantly more per ton for salt than GR. But GR gets more per hour for plowing than South Bend.


Really? It hardly seems worth the time for $300, let alone $250 when you've got probably close to $100 in salt expense alone once you buy the bulk and the bagged material for the walks. Then you likely will need to pay a helper at least $20/hr for 1-2 hours with travel so we'll say another $50 for labor.

Based on this other guys $250 that only leaves $100 for him to pay for his truck, plow, salter, AND before taxes/insurance.

Seems like such a waste of time to me personally.


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## BUFF

Cameron R said:


> So I turned my numbers in today and I was shocked by the response. Just as a reminder my total came out to $475.00 for a full service (plowing and salting the entire lot, and hand shoveling and salting the walks/store fronts). I was told my price wasn't even close and their current contractor does everything I quoted for $250! Does this even seem possible to you guys!?!? I know I don't have much experience but i've never been that off before. There must be something off right?


Chalk it up to being in a competitive market area, there's always someone willing to work for scraps. 
I'd suggest you look at the time you think it'd take to service the property and how you priced your salt. You should see your numbers come down.
That lot you'd drive around the building windrowing outward and in a couple laps the majority of the lot would be cleared, a little detail work in the corners and your done, that's in a perfect world with no vehicles in the lot.
A good rule of thumb is, 30min to plow an acre with a 8' straight blade and ok operator. But figure an hour which covers all scenarios.
I use to charge 3x the cost of salt and using $95/ton and 900# per app it's $130.00 ish
The walks should take maybe 20min to shovel and treat.
One guy could do that property in an hour.


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## Mark Oomkes

Cameron R said:


> Really? It hardly seems worth the time for $300, let alone $250 when you've got probably close to $100 in salt expense alone once you buy the bulk and the bagged material for the walks. Then you likely will need to pay a helper at least $20/hr for 1-2 hours with travel so we'll say another $50 for labor.
> 
> Based on this other guys $250 that only leaves $100 for him to pay for his truck, plow, salter, AND before taxes/insurance.
> 
> Seems like such a waste of time to me personally.


OK, trying to remember some of the posts since it got way off track. These are my estimates using my experience and my equipment (sidewalks would be mechanized)

40,000 sq ft is about an acre. IMO, that isn't a very difficult lot to plow, 45 min tops for snowfalls under 6".

Maybe 1,000# of salt. And I know Detoilet gets way less for salt applied than I do. Which makes no sense because most of you are buying from landscape yards and paying more per ton for it. Although I have a salt bin and loader that I have to recover costs on (even if they are paid for.) Basing it on 800#/acre.

2 maybe 3 bags of salt, hard to say from the pic. Cost is $30 tops if you're using 3. More likely 1-2.

My sidewalks are all based on a $50 minimum.

One of the things you just learned is that one of the factors that affect pricing is what the market will bare...not just what your costs are. BUFF mentioned this with competition. There are ways to overcome this as you develop a reputation. But something funky was going on asking for a price at the end of January. You were the underdog no matter what.

$250 is pushing the limit for making it profitable.

Last thing, I absolutely detest pricing based on satellite shots. I will for driveways, but not parking lots. So it's possible that my estimates are way off.


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## BossPlow2010

If I did Lakeside mall, I’d have a loader or skid do this property, and it would take they’d be done in 15 minutes.
I think your times on things will take are on the higher side, and I think your increments shouldn’t have as much spread.
1-6 is a significant difference.


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## Cameron R

Mark Oomkes said:


> OK, trying to remember some of the posts since it got way off track. These are my estimates using my experience and my equipment (sidewalks would be mechanized)
> 
> 40,000 sq ft is about an acre. IMO, that isn't a very difficult lot to plow, 45 min tops for snowfalls under 6".
> 
> Maybe 1,000# of salt. And I know Detoilet gets way less for salt applied than I do. Which makes no sense because most of you are buying from landscape yards and paying more per ton for it. Although I have a salt bin and loader that I have to recover costs on (even if they are paid for.) Basing it on 800#/acre.
> 
> 2 maybe 3 bags of salt, hard to say from the pic. Cost is $30 tops if you're using 3. More likely 1-2.
> 
> My sidewalks are all based on a $50 minimum.
> 
> One of the things you just learned is that one of the factors that affect pricing is what the market will bare...not just what your costs are. BUFF mentioned this with competition. There are ways to overcome this as you develop a reputation. But something funky was going on asking for a price at the end of January. You were the underdog no matter what.
> 
> $250 is pushing the limit for making it profitable.
> 
> Last thing, I absolutely detest pricing based on satellite shots. I will for driveways, but not parking lots. So it's possible that my estimates are way off.


Thank you for the advice! I also agree with what buff said about my salt price especially being on the high side. I also don't doubt your experience or success in the snow removal industry, I think your equipment speaks for itself. But I do think the satellite picture isn't doing the job justice imo. The visible walkways are not standard 5 foot walks. They are minimum 10 foot wide and up to 20 foot wide in spots. Also I highlighted some more curbs in the front that imo prevent this from being a simple push where I can do laps around the building and just work everything to the sides. I really feel like doing this push in an hour would be a very fast and stressful task. But I did learn from this nonetheless. I need to be more careful about rounding up on my material and time costs. I've burned myself very badly already on other jobs so I always try to give myself a buffer as someone stated earlier. But the frustration is that it seems like everytime I give myself a safe buffer or quote a job so that I can actually..... ya know..... make money I end up looking like an idiot.


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## Cameron R

BossPlow2010 said:


> If I did Lakeside mall, I'd have a loader or skid do this property, and it would take they'd be done in 15 minutes.
> I think your times on things will take are on the higher side, and I think your increments shouldn't have as much spread.
> 1-6 is a significant difference.


Yeah I wish I could use a skid!


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## Mark Oomkes

Cameron R said:


> Thank you for the advice! I also agree with what buff said about my salt price especially being on the high side. I also don't doubt your experience or success in the snow removal industry, I think your equipment speaks for itself. But I do think the satellite picture isn't doing the job justice imo. The visible walkways are not standard 5 foot walks. They are minimum 10 foot wide and up to 20 foot wide in spots. Also I highlighted some more curbs in the front that imo prevent this from being a simple push where I can do laps around the building and just work everything to the sides. I really feel like doing this push in an hour would be a very fast and stressful task. But I did learn from this nonetheless. I need to be more careful about rounding up on my material and time costs. I've burned myself very badly already on other jobs so I always try to give myself a buffer as someone stated earlier. But the frustration is that it seems like everytime I give myself a safe buffer or quote a job so that I can actually..... ya know..... make money I end up looking like an idiot.


I hear ya, I try to build a buffer in as well.

I mentioned this somewhere else, but for whatever reason, my average per hour (me or my crews, not using "serious software" or a foreperson watching) always comes in $30-50 per hour higher than what I estimate. So I do build in some buffer.

But a guy I hired said the company he was at was higher on the hourly rate than we are. Then I watched him plow and realized why some might bid higher but make less per hour. Efficiency.

I've also posted before about "competitors" plowing similar lots or drives that I'm doing and absolutely amazed how long it takes them. One of the did one drive in the time I did 3 and started on another, all very similar drives. I've plowed and salted small lots in less time than others have not finished a lot they started before I arrived. And I am extremely OCD about trails and leaving a lot clean.

Never really considered what others charge or why they might be higher than me, but they make less because of inefficiencies.


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## Chineau

read most of that and here I thought I was the only one who thought of sublimation!
to consider for future bidding/scope discussion with customers, where do you want your snow to be stacked? don't guess.
as part of the snow business re-handle hauling, is I find, enjoyable when it is all working right.
if you don't have the equipment to do the re-handle your self find someone you can work with (trust), a landscaper trailer and a dingo won't do it. 
find out where the snow is going, pay to dump and bill back as required there is an amazing amount of garbage in snow from commercial sites.


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## zicesariz

From Philly PA
I have an office building 1 acre lot that is split into two parking lots and i charge $325 every two inches of snow accumulated
so 0 - 2 is $325 / 2.1 - 4 is $650 and so on.
i charge $360 per salt run + $40 for 1 bag of calcium for walkways.
and i still dont think im charging enough

I have another apartment complex that is only 15,000 sqft and i charge $410 every two inches of snow accumulated and and $335 every salt run + $40 for one bag of calcium.

Hope this helps


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## Mountain Bob

Wow 2 small accounts, and can make your whole season.
Seems awful high to me, oh well.


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## Chineau

Mountain Bob said:


> Wow 2 small accounts, and can make your whole season.
> Seems awful high to me, oh well.


I try to be mindful each of us has very different ideas of a good season for some if I clear enough for bait, bullets and beer awesome.
for others there are employees and equipment to look after along with a crazy amount of customers and then you think about doing some fishing and wishing you could get to the gun range or go hunting and maybe enjoy a beer.
good for him if he can get it.


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## zicesariz

But the thing is that we also only get like 7 plow able events


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## Chineau

zicesariz said:


> But the thing is that we also only get like 7 plow able events


um is this the main gig?
for me as full time as I want to make it for the 6 month of winter we get and more like 15 here.


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## jato

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes
> 
> No
> 
> Hard to say...but pricing is all over regionally and even locally as has been stated. You're going to get contractors that don't have a clue what their costs are and bid too high on some and too low on others. You have contractors that think they can make it up in volume. You have contractors that are unethical and will bill for services not performed or over bill for services performed.
> 
> I might be too low, but I think you were off by at least $150. But again, prices vary immensely.
> 
> Not giving specific numbers, but South Bend gets significantly more per ton for salt than GR. But GR gets more per hour for plowing than South Bend.


Im not running a plow, but this thread is interesting and I have a question or suggestion... maybe that other contractor gets away with it for $250 because the contract gives them 24-36 hours to clear it? If they're just windrowing it aside, that has to cut down on wheel time by at least 50%. 
If that's all the client wants then (sadly) they probably will not be willing to pay more for a better service. No point in plowing an extra 30 mins just to get their cars 10 inches further into each spot.

You guys think he might be able to salt his way out of plowing some of the time by just pre-applying $40 of salt on the lot?

$250 = 10 mins on site + $40-60 of salt

Is that sustainable if he only has to really push snow 2-4x per season and in between he can stack cash on the small storms?


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## Mark Oomkes

No one around here is waiting 24-36 hours.


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## Chineau

there are properties in my area 24-36 hours out, be mindful each market has it's ways of business being done.


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## cwren2472

Mark Oomkes said:


> No one around here is waiting 24-36 hours.


How low of a price can I get if I'm willing to wait until May?


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## Chineau

here there might be snow piles in May.
people pay to have them hauled away.


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## jato

Mark Oomkes said:


> No one around here is waiting 24-36 hours.


I see commercial properties around here go at least 1-2 days before getting cleared. Usually small independent ones and usually only if the storm was 2-4 inches. But I see it a lot. For bigger storms I think people push once while the storm is still going and then let the last 1-3" sit on the ground without ever going back.


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## BossPlow2010

24 hours after the storm? Yikes. 
we try to have everything done 12 hours after the last flake,
There’s exception to this though.
I wish it was 8.


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## plow4beer

Chineau said:


> I try to be mindful each of us has very different ideas of a good season for some if I clear enough for bait, bullets and beer awesome.


hey now, I resemble that remark


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## Chineau

BossPlow2010 said:


> 24 hours after the storm? Yikes.
> we try to have everything done 12 hours after the last flake,
> There's exception to this though.
> I wish it was 8.


the snow business has at least two things in common for all of us, flakes and coin.
after that each of us runs a business that satisfies enough to get up the next day and do it some more, the equipment and people we involve is different.
when it snows I want my stuff out as long as possible I did not buy it to sit around and look at.
for me and it has taken a few years to put it together snow on the ground 6 am today run till 6pm tomorrow, when the plan works smiles when it doesn't hell.


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