# how to find a cheap start plow?



## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

i own a heavily modified 2500 dodge ram 1999 cummins. it has a large grill guard on the front so i assume i will need to do some fab work to get ANY plow mount to fit due to the welded brackets up front.

I want to get into snow plowing this year but need to do it for under 1K. i have some cables that came with my truck that i think are part of a plow controller but am not sure, pics at the bottom.

How can i piece together a plow on craigs list? i see so many mounts, blades, hydraulics, controllers, ect. new plows are 8K and that's WAY to much money for me to spend. can anyone help me go about this?

i live in St. paul MN.

i thoguht i had a better picture but here in the upper part you can see the "isolation mod" i think thats a plow controller but am not sure.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

second question. looking around i have a hard time finding any dodge plows so could i buy a plow from a 83 or somthing and just weld up some 1/2" plate to hold the plow mount to the front frame and then weld a litch pin to the grill guard to hold the top of hte mount? the grill guard is made of 1/2" 2X6 and weighs in at 547Lbs so i think it would be strong enough.

the truck is lifted by 3.5" so i would need to lower the mount anyway to keep the plow in line with the frame right?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

That's a new ISO mod. I can't tell by the picture if its a western or fisher tho. That will help in determining what plow you can go with.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

youre going to want to take that guard off for the winter, 547 pounds plus the plow on the front of a 1999 dodge diesel is WAY too much weight for a dodge front end. it looks like it will also get in the way of the light tower too


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

im not sure i know enough to peice together a plow with that control mod. im looking to buy some old plow with everything on it adn just weld stuff up to make it fit the truck.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Your gunna be into it more money trying to piece something together then trying to buy the right stuff the first time. Your half way there with the ISO mod and wiring you just need the plow, mount and controller. It's not gunna be super expensive maybe 2500 ish. But what ISO is that fisher or western ?


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

yea... i found some old plows with everything on craigs list for 650-800. i think im going to go with them to start with. they are off of old bronchos and F-150's

due to the extensive front end mods to accommodate that grill guard and my recovery winch i will need to do fab welding anyway so im just looking for a cheap starter plow. if it goes well this year then maybe next year ill drop a couple K onto a nice Vplow. im just not keen on spending over 1K when im not sure if i will be doing this more than a year.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

What kind of plows are they for that cheap.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

NCC74656;1661826 said:


> i own a heavily modified 2500 dodge ram 1999 cummins. it has a large grill guard on the front so i assume i will need to do some fab work to get ANY plow mount to fit due to the welded brackets up front.


This is what I came up with for a bumper, the pump and lights come and go with the season in about 10min.
It started out as a Meyer EZ Mount Classic, this type of setup allows for a lot of easy modifing for lifted trucks, etc....in my opinion.


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

Trying to Frankenstein a setup is going to cost more in the long run. Making things work together and not being able to test a whole setup before buying is a gamble. Especially if you are trying to get plow contracts. 

I bought a second truck with plow this year and I paid another $1k in parts/labor to fix all the issues I found to make it reliable after solving the "small issues" it originally had masking the bigger ones. For about $1000 more I could have just bought a nice new setup for my big diesel. Granted I am still saving (barring anymore issues), but trying to go the cheapest route possible will almost always cost more. So make sure you can try any plow you find.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

MK97;1661944 said:


> Trying to Frankenstein a setup is going to cost more in the long run. Making things work together and not being able to test a whole setup before buying is a gamble. Especially if you are trying to get plow contracts.
> 
> I bought a second truck with plow this year and I paid another $1k in parts/labor to fix all the issues I found to make it reliable after solving the "small issues" it originally had masking the bigger ones. For about $1000 more I could have just bought a nice new setup for my big diesel. Granted I am still saving (barring anymore issues), but trying to go the cheapest route possible will almost always cost more. So make sure you can try any plow you find.


100% correct, in my case the plow was on the truck and the plow had no issues., I just built the bumper for my needs.
To give an idea of possible cost, $300-600 to repair/rebuild a pump, $80-140per Angle cylinder, $250-400 to replace "A" frame or Sector, etc...
Spend the extra money to get a good used set up that has little to no fixes.


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

Angle cylinder was $185 for me last week, pump shaft seal was $17. Picked it up the other day from the shop since it was puking fluid and not building pressure. That was a $380 bill. Neighbor trying to help install pump last week slipped and broke the tab for the wire completely off the cylinder. Accidents happen, but still sucked.


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## ozoneburner (Oct 29, 2013)

I have the same truck as you and bought my first plow yesterday. Search "dodge snow plow" on Craigslist, most of the plows are off of our 2nd gens and ol bolt right up. I could have bought a working Meyer for 1500 but went with a blizzard for $2100. I would think if you wheel and deal you could find a beater for 1200 or so no problem.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Your bumper needs to come off in the winter

You need to do some research. Cobbling something together like your talking about is a horrible idea at best.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

NCC74656;1661914 said:


> yea... i found some old plows with everything on craigs list for 650-800. i think im going to go with them to start with. they are off of old bronchos and F-150's
> 
> due to the extensive front end mods to accommodate that grill guard and my recovery winch i will need to do fab welding anyway so im just looking for a cheap starter plow. if it goes well this year then maybe next year ill drop a couple K onto a nice Vplow. im just not keen on spending over 1K when im not sure if i will be doing this more than a year.


Or you can ignore the advice of a half dozen professionals you asked input from. I'm sure that'll be the best approach. Cobble together some plow out of spare parts along with that monstrosity of a bumper you'll be fine


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

peteo1;1662096 said:


> Or you can ignore the advice of a half dozen professionals you asked input from. I'm sure that'll be the best approach. Cobble together some plow out of spare parts along with that monstrosity of a bumper you'll be fine


Subscribing.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

trying to peice one together is also not something i really want to do right now as i dont think ill be able to 1 shot allt eh parts. maybe once ive gotten into the market a bit and i know what im doing it would be a choice.

so ive found things like this:

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/for/4161982246.html
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/wsh/for/4140532516.html

things like this is what im looking for. a cheap and complete package i can weld on.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

peteo1;1662096 said:


> Or you can ignore the advice of a half dozen professionals you asked input from. I'm sure that'll be the best approach. Cobble together some plow out of spare parts along with that monstrosity of a bumper you'll be fine


i expressly said i did not want to cobble things together, i dont know where you are getting off coming off like you are but i do not appreciate it. in my previous post i linked some plows i found on craigs list, what do you think of them as a choice?

the bottom line is i need to get into this for under 1K, if its over 1K i will not be getting a plow. that's simply a financial line that i am not able to cross or move.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Just forget the whole thing. For what you want to spend, you're going to end up with a piece of **** that breaks down every ten minutes and piss the people off that you're supposed to be plowing for. You're going at this whole thing ass backwards.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

ok... well if i cant get into it for 1K then i wont be getting into it. its just to much money for an initial cost to buy a 3K $ plow. i see dozens of old beaters with plows and have known plenty of people from my auto teachers, grandpa, friends dads that all had a 80's bronco or equivalent with some 20 year old plow they used. that is what i was after.

im not quite sure why some steel and hydraulics should cost so much but i guess it is what it is. if anyone has any thoughts on how i can make things work for my price range feel free to throw them out but if not then maybe ill happen across something local or just not bother with it at all and put the money to other things.

thanks for the help.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

That first plow,,,,,man run from that scrap iron. The 2nd is an old cable control western. The kind where the pump and lights stay with the tk. You would definitely have to make your own mounts for it. But with steel and labor you'd be into it for over a g


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

One reason why some people are being tough on you is because they know how hard it is to try what your doing with that budget.

Other reasons is because most guys don't like people who want to plow snow because they think it may be fun and aren't serious about turning it into a real business. The reason for that is because let's say you go a find 10 customers, you took them from another guy because you charged less because you didn't spend the same money as him and probably don't have insurance, then when your plow breaks down they get a call asking to get plowed out because the "new guy" broke down.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Triton2286;1662141 said:


> One reason why some people are being tough on you is because they know how hard it is to try what your doing with that budget.
> 
> Other reasons is because most guys don't like people who want to plow snow because they think it may be fun and aren't serious about turning it into a real business. The reason for that is because let's say you go a find 10 customers, you took them from another guy because you charged less because you didn't spend the same money as him and probably don't have insurance, then when your plow breaks down they get a call asking to get plowed out because the "new guy" broke down.


valid very valid

enough hacks and low ballers out there already.....do some research and learn before acting


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

at present i have some friends who would like there drive ways plowed, i do work for apartment management and we have some parking lots and a new job i just started at have some small lots that would like to have plowed. 

yes there is no way i would spend the high dollars to get into plowing if for no other reason than it would be a part time deal that i may not even stick with but i do most certainly have the truck for it. 

steel is cheap so i would not be worried about that, you can buy it for 30 cents a pound and welding is rather inexpensive as well so its not finding a way to make it fit that is the issue.

i see on craigs list the western mounts for 150-250.00 and blades for 350 or so. hydrallics is the area im not sure on and i know i have a control harness so being able to use that would be great BUT then im taking a part here and a part there... just not what i want to do for my first plow. if for no other reason than I do not know what will or wont work. so if the mount and blade can be had for around 500.00 i dont see why the hydraulics would cost much more than a few hundred... when i bought pistons nad pumps for my dump bed fab build i spend less than 400.00 on all the parts. is it really that much more to go from up and down to up and down with side to side?


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

So glad I subscribed


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

NCC74656;1662152 said:


> at present i have some friends who would like there drive ways plowed, i do work for apartment management and we have some parking lots and a new job i just started at have some small lots that would like to have plowed.
> 
> yes there is no way i would spend the high dollars to get into plowing if for no other reason than it would be a part time deal that i may not even stick with but i do most certainly have the truck for it.
> 
> ...


how much was commercial insurance quote again?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm sorry I don't get your .30 a pound steel comment. 
Not that I'm saying a lot bad about it. But why do you think someone is selling that plow etc for so cheap? 
Sure the hydros might be a few hundred.... But what happens when all the Frankenstein stuff breaks and your up the creek? Who's part is what? Where did I get that? Then its how do I fix this?


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## joeyg999 (Nov 21, 2012)

Seriously take up the piano or something else. 

With the approach your taking at this you will fail. With one of those POS plows you want it will nickle and dime you to death. It will also break at the worst time possible. Then the insurance you do not have will cost you your house wife and first born when you slide into something or that POS falls of your truck due to the fact you are clueless. 

Good Luck and enjoy the piano


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

The 2 plows you had links to are only 7.5ft wide which is fine for a short wheelbase vehicle like a Bronco, Blazer, 1/2T pickup. Besides being on the rough side condition wise they’re light duty/ homeowner plows. You said you had a heavily modified diesel and the plows you’ve shown interest as I said are on the rough side, homeowner grade and would be destroyed being used commercially especially with a pumped up motor pushing. 
Your enthusiasm is great to see however it’s over taking your common sense, you’ve mentioned nothing about G/L insurance and you defiantly need it unless you want to lose everything you own and have your wages garnished for a very very long time.
My suggestion is not to rush into the plowing bizz this season, you’ll make numerous costly mistakes due to hasty decisions and will lose the work you say you have. Sit this season out and save the funds needed to do this right, you’ll find your money will buy a lot more at the end of the season rather than the beginning. Also with the season ramping up or underway you’re way behind to do things right.


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## snowpro44 (Oct 31, 2013)

you got what looks like a nice truck just go to a western dealer or whatever blade of your choice a buy one..if your good.. you can pay for it quickly..


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

NCC74656;1662114 said:


> ok... well if i cant get into it for 1K then i wont be getting into it. its just to much money for an initial cost to buy a 3K $ plow. i see dozens of old beaters with plows and have known plenty of people from my auto teachers, grandpa, friends dads that all had a 80's bronco or equivalent with some 20 year old plow they used. that is what i was after.
> 
> im not quite sure why some steel and hydraulics should cost so much but i guess it is what it is. if anyone has any thoughts on how i can make things work for my price range feel free to throw them out but if not then maybe ill happen across something local or just not bother with it at all and put the money to other things.
> 
> thanks for the help.


I hope you never look up the prices of new plows

We brought a western MVP for 2 k. Its in good shape used twice. We already had wiring but I have a box sitting here with $1k just in parts to make it work


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## snowpro44 (Oct 31, 2013)

Oh..I know there are salty..but down time and and parts will hurt you more than just making that investment..


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

What's the rest of the truck details.... lift, tires,tuned?


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Check out your local junk yard . I didn't see the pics of the truck .There gone now . You need to find a plow that fits the wiring you already have . A lot of guys junk the plow with the truck. Last time I needed a plow they had a whole pile of plows to choose from. I picked a slightly used Fisher. I only needed the plow so it was easy to find one, I allready had the mounts and wiring.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

ill check out a junk yard or two but i am not expecting much. i will be putting money into buying some triplexes by next year at which point i don't think i will be as interested in doing plow work. im sure there will be a time it makes more practical sense to get into the plowing but at this point it just does not stand to reason that i should spend a very large sum of money for a part that i doubt i will use more than a year.

the rest of the truck is as follows:
37" toyo open country M/T's
engine: 225HP injectors, 63/65/14 turbo, quadzilla adreniline comp tune. i have not had it on the dyno since some of these changes were installed but based on others results i should be in the 550HP ball park and the 900-1.1K ft/lbs of torque.
4.11 gearing with track lock rear and OX front dana 60/70
rear leaf pack stock atm but will get a shackle flip in up coming months
front end: 3.5" thuren fabrication solid rate coils, king fox shocks with reservoir, dodge off road control arms, dodge off road track bar, luks links on tie rod, upgraded F450 knuckles and break assemblies on front.
4 batteries with custom built fuse distro block (4 0ga in and 9 0 ga outputs)
grill guard is custom with schedule 80 pipe for the sides and 2X6/2X2 1/2" walled for the center section bolted with 1/2" bolts to custom brackets welded to a custom front frame fab.
Transmission: billet flex plate, input and output shaft, billet servos and accumulators, borg warner high energy clutch packs, kolene steels, kevlar shift bands, triple disk billet torque converter, gernode valve body.

entire drive line is painted old ford blue, bolts are yellow, U joints are orange, and all access plate covers are red.

truck did not drive well when i bought it but i have pieced it back together. LOTS of welding on the frame as i had to cut from the drivers seat to the front off and weld on new steel so the frame is 1/4" instead of 1/8" from mid truck forward. next year im thinking of building a new frame for the rear and maybe extending the box by a foot or so.

9KW audio system as well with custom fiber glass panels and such for 10" door speakers and 18" subs in back.

all in all i just can not justify a three thousand dollar purchase for just the winter. it would take me 6 years of plowing to make that investment back with the level of plowing i am thinking of doing. it simply does not make sense. when i am able to justify a 3K $ toy then it would

edit: i think i posted some pics but this website did not auto size them so they were HUGE. here is an album of the pics:


http://imgur.com/Rn8jB


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## CashinH&P (Jan 14, 2012)

Subscribing....


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

Sounds like the plow thing should be looked at in a few years when you may have more than a temporary interest. Trying a half assed approach is not the way to go. 

Still have seen no mention of insurance, is that part of the $1k budget and will forego if too expensive?


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

i have no idea what plow insurance costs. i know there is an option for it on my auto insurance, i assume that checking the box asking if you have a plow is what you are referring to?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

No. Commercial snow plowing insurance. Whole nother ball game


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

It doesn't matter at this point. You know you just can't afford it.

Let's just have this thread die.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

out of curiosity how is the cost determined? what do you guys pay in insurance rates and how often?


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

NCC74656;1662501 said:


> i have no idea what plow insurance costs. i know there is an option for it on my auto insurance, i assume that checking the box asking if you have a plow is what you are referring to?


It isn't cheap and not part of auto insurance. So again, trying to do some cobbled together setup to make a quick buck will end badly when you inevitably hit something or have a claim made against you. You will be beyond screwed when you realize you don't have insurance backing you up and you're left holding the bill.

So wait a few years or however long and let a professional that tries to take the work seriously handle whatever accounts you were after. We will all benefit that way.


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

I'll put it this way. 

Combined my Commercial Auto and General Liability costs me $5K per year.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

so id assume that breaks down to 1500 and 3500 for insurance. thats a hell of a lot of money just to plow snow for a few months out of a year. last few years we only had a hand full of snow falls that warranted even city plows to be out let alone someones drive way. 

well i guess we will have another year of hand shoveling all the parking lots. the lots i was asked to plow are presently shoveled by myself and other workers as hiring a plow driver is to expensive as an over head cost. my main thought was that i could do some side plowing as well as these jobs to make a bit of side cash but if the start up and yearly expense is going to be near 9K that's just ludicrous for someone who is not going to make it is life's employment in the winter.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

NCC74656;1662511 said:


> so id assume that breaks down to 1500 and 3500 for insurance. thats a hell of a lot of money just to plow snow for a few months out of a year. last few years we only had a hand full of snow falls that warranted even city plows to be out let alone someones drive way.
> 
> well i guess we will have another year of hand shoveling all the parking lots. the lots i was asked to plow are presently shoveled by myself and other workers as hiring a plow driver is to expensive as an over head cost. my main thought was that i could do some side plowing as well as these jobs to make a bit of side cash but if the start up and yearly expense is going to be near 9K that's just ludicrous for someone who is not going to make it is life's employment in the winter.


I bill out over a 100hr for my truck....each event.….10hr......1000.00.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

at one job i would be paid hourly at 15.50 and the other jobs would be 60.00 a lot to plow. this is what i was offered when i was asked if i had a plow and these are the numbers i am basing my budget on. as it stands this project does not hold water. the hard cap i was given is no more than 70.00 to plow per snow fall, if it costs more than that for me to get a plow or to hire someone else then we stick to hand shoveling. 

now if i were interested in actually starting my own plowing business then this might change things but at present i am not.


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

Lmfao. They want to pay you $60 to plow a lot?

That's what I get for a 12'x100' driveway.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

this lot can hold about 8 cars, it not a huge lot. the other buildings would be hourly and they range from 12-48 car lots.

so if you bill 100.00 an hour and it takes you half an hour to plow a lot you charge 50 bucks or 15 min lot you charge 25.00? im trying to understand how anyone can make money with a 5K a year over head and maintenance costs of maybe 1K a year with a 3-6K start-up cost on a plow. given that its a seasonal job and a storage locker to hold the plow during the summer at a cost of 80-150.00 a month there it seems that about 8700.00 would be your break even point for the first 3 or so years and after that 7200.00 would be your break even point. paying 7 thousand dollars just to do work seems some what crazy to me given that there is no guarantee there will be enough snow to make that up given how crazy the weather has been recently. last year around here it was ALL ice.

and thats not even starting in on the truck maintenance costs. I have lots of heavy duty and expensive mods to my truck and i do all my own labor but im still going ot break **** with a 500-2000Lbs plow ramming into snow banks...

so now im moving from [how to make this work for these lots] to [what does it take to do this right and is it a worth while endeavor for next year].

edit: you said that you spend 10 hours at a job? what size lots are we talking here that it takes 10 hours to plow?!?


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## CashinH&P (Jan 14, 2012)

NCC74656;1662539 said:


> this lot can hold about 8 cars, it not a huge lot. the other buildings would be hourly and they range from 12-48 car lots.
> 
> so if you bill 100.00 an hour and it takes you half an hour to plow a lot you charge 50 bucks or 15 min lot you charge 25.00? im trying to understand how anyone can make money with a 5K a year over head and maintenance costs of maybe 1K a year with a 3-6K start-up cost on a plow. given that its a seasonal job and a storage locker to hold the plow during the summer at a cost of 80-150.00 a month there it seems that about 8700.00 would be your break even point for the first 3 or so years and after that 7200.00 would be your break even point. paying 7 thousand dollars just to do work seems some what crazy to me given that there is no guarantee there will be enough snow to make that up given how crazy the weather has been recently. last year around here it was ALL ice.
> 
> ...


I have lots that are on seasonal constacts for more then your figures posted above. You have to spend money to make money. Obviously your not ready to get into plow, let the guys who do this for a living do the lots, your truck sounds fun though.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

so i should check around on what insurance would cost. is there a middle ground on that? if im not looking to do commercial 500 car lots but just smaller guys part time to lower the cost of that or is it an all or nothing deal? do you guys setup LLC's for this stuff? i have my own general contracting LLC right now and my truck is owned by it.

secondly how much do you guys end up spending on yearly matiance on repairs for truck/plow parts?

thirdly it seems that if i get super lucky maybe i could enter into the market at 1500 or on the higher end of 2500.00 for a basic plow setup. does that sound right?

what are your guy's thoughts on used plows in general? have you seen issues with insurance rats higher on used equipment or older stuff vs brand new stuff?

it sounds like 100.00 an hour is a decent rate to charge or do you guys have other ways of billing out for plowing?

on the lower end would a deal like this be acceptable? http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/4178252923.html


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

NCC74656;1662481 said:


> ill check out a junk yard or two but i am not expecting much. i will be putting money into buying some triplexes by next year at which point i don't think i will be as interested in doing plow work. im sure there will be a time it makes more practical sense to get into the plowing but at this point it just does not stand to reason that i should spend a very large sum of money for a part that i doubt i will use more than a year.
> 
> the rest of the truck is as follows:
> 37" toyo open country M/T's
> ...


By what you've listed as being done to your truck you have no problem justifying shelling out money for toys, some of what you've done to you truck can be justified but most doesn't for a driver. You'll never see any return on the majority of that money and get pennies on the dollar when you part it out. 
Spending/investing in a tool that creates revenue unlike a 9Kwatt sounds system. In an earlier post I gave you kudos for enthusiasm, reading what's been posted since then shows something completely different.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

you are very correct that much of what the truck has is built as a toy. i do lots of hauling for my contracting job so the extra features are "nice" in the power range and its "nice" to have tires and lift in the winter. I have no intention of ever selling this truck so its resale value is not a concern to me. 

the major difference here is the truck parts and repairs were budgeted from the get go while this plow endeavor is not. the truck was a dream from when i was 16 years old and it also happens to fit into my current line of work. this plow is nothing more than people asking the guy with a huge truck if he can plow and myself exploring that option as i hate to tell people that i cant do a job they ask of me.

much of it is being stuck in the area of needing to keep things on the cheap for those asking to employ plow services while not being committed to starting up another full time job. as for the enthusiasm that is always there when trying new things but it is fairly obvious now that the money is not justified in a part time endeavor but it might be if i were to want to start a plowing company. 

so the next step is to ascertain what exactly a start-up company would look like and what its over head would be to determine if its worth while undertaking this season or next or at all.

edit: there are days i wish forums were just large voice chat rooms, this would go so much faster talking vs typing.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

$15.50 an hour wouldn't even cover your fuel cost.


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

thats what im gathering so im looking to know:

1. is there a middle ground on insurance, if im not looking to do commercial 500 car lots but just smaller guys part time to lower the cost of that or is it an all or nothing deal? do you guys setup LLC's for this stuff?

2. how much do you guys end up spending on yearly matiance on repairs for truck/plow parts?

3. it seems that if i get super lucky maybe i could enter into the market at 1500 or on the higher end of 2500.00 for a basic plow setup. does that sound right?

4. it sounds like 100.00 an hour is a decent rate to charge or do you guys have other ways of billing out for plowing?

5. any other things that someone should know when looking at this work that has not already been covered.

at this point its more of a conceptual exercise to fully grasp what i would need in place to startup if i choose to.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

NCC74656;1662607 said:


> thats what im gathering so im looking to know:
> 
> 1. is there a middle ground on insurance, if im not looking to do commercial 500 car lots but just smaller guys part time to lower the cost of that or is it an all or nothing deal? do you guys setup LLC's for this stuff?
> 
> ...


1- As soon as you take money from anyone for plowing you ARE commercial. Be it residential or big lots. We separate lots here by "commercial" or driveways as "resi" because that is our lingo but as far as insurance or business goes when you take money you are doing commercial work even if it is just sidewalks. You need a specific snow plow insurance package including general liability. A broker is best at finding what you need. Yes a lot of guys set up LLC's

2- Maintenance costs vary. Older the truck most times equals more repairs. But if you go out and beat on it and ram piles and such you can expect more repairs no matter the year. Newer trucks cost more for parts depending on what you are replacing. No one can give you an exact cost until the end of the season. Oil changes and trans fluid changes along with filters should always be included as expected costs and done before-during and end of the season(in my opine) Same with the plows, abuse it and you will pay more to maintain it. Most guys carry spare hoses, fluid and a solenoid in the truck for on the spot repairs.

3- Depends on what plow you want that fits your truck and will do the job. I don't recommend anything under 8' and ideal is 8' 6" or bigger for a full sized pick-up long bed. You should be able to find some very nice used plows @ $2500 but the time to look is in the summer. I would only buy new wiring and mounts for your specific truck especially the wiring.

4- Depends on your costs. You need to figure what it will cost you per year in insurance add fuel and a general idea of wear and tear on truck including maintenance. divide that by the average number of events and you will know what you need to make just to cover those costs each time you start your route. People say in the UP of Michigan can not expect $100 an hour because of the amount of snow they get and people not willing to pay $50 k a year to clear their lot. But they may make more per year than say New York city because of volume. There are a lot of braggarts that brag they make "this much" but really never do and just want to be a big-man on the INTERNET. Never tell others your true wage as that is how you will lose jobs. If someone asks how much you make or how much you are getting per lot always say a million bucks and were the lowest bid.

5- Check around to see what others are charging. Most in this biz know their costs and charge what they do for a reason. You do not want to be known as the low-baller in the area and if you don't charge enough you will find yourself spending your own money just to plow. People do this to make money to pay the bills and feed their families. Those that do it for "beer money" never last and often end up asking why they spent so much for the work involved and get out of it in a year or so. You have to keep in mind that you will need to replace that plow truck about or at least every 5 years to stay out of the spend money to keep it running game. You can depreciate it on tax's over a few years and then sell it to someone and get another to start over with but that money has to come from somewhere and under charging just to get the job will not cut it. wesport


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## NCC74656 (Oct 9, 2012)

i will do some research over the winter here on what people charge. this summer ill check around for plows and look at getting into things next year then. there are many places around here to plow as it is a very large metro area. i assume most of you guys prefer commercial parking lots to residential drive ways?

at some point i will need to either charge less or provide more services for the same money to have an edge into the market so as to pick up jobs. ill need to do some reading and research on cutting costs im sure.

i do not plan to sell this truck i have but rather to upgrade broken parts as they break. from engine to axles to frame ill just keep making things stronger.

ill keep a price range of 2500 for a plow in mind. id assume its best to try and find a mount/plow that will work with the wiring that this truck came with, no?


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## Blizzard1980 (Dec 27, 2012)

Well said, Reaper


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

NCC74656;1662848 said:


> ill keep a price range of 2500 for a plow in mind. id assume its best to try and find a mount/plow that will work with the wiring that this truck came with, no?


You are assuming that wiring is still good tho. Best to take it to whatever dealer the wiring belongs to and have them check to make sure it is in fact still usable. Or find a friend with that plow and without mounting it just hook up electrical connections to make sure everything works.

$2500 in the off season should get you a real decent plow set up. A little wheeling and dealing and looking mine cost $2000 and have an almost new 8' 6" BOSS Super Duty. I did have to ask B&B for some help for a small fix when I got it but I did it myself and got it working with no parts and just some cleaning of parts.


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## RamesesSnow23 (Jan 4, 2004)

NCC74656;1662539 said:


> this lot can hold about 8 cars, it not a huge lot. the other buildings would be hourly and they range from 12-48 car lots.
> 
> so if you bill 100.00 an hour and it takes you half an hour to plow a lot you charge 50 bucks or 15 min lot you charge 25.00? im trying to understand how anyone can make money with a 5K a year over head and maintenance costs of maybe 1K a year with a 3-6K start-up cost on a plow. given that its a seasonal job and a storage locker to hold the plow during the summer at a cost of 80-150.00 a month there it seems that about 8700.00 would be your break even point for the first 3 or so years and after that 7200.00 would be your break even point. paying 7 thousand dollars just to do work seems some what crazy to me given that there is no guarantee there will be enough snow to make that up given how crazy the weather has been recently. last year around here it was ALL ice.
> 
> ...


You are over thinking the entire thing.

Most people dont store plows in storage lockers that they pay for, they have houses, shops, property of their own, etc These guys that are asking you to plow their lots seem to be friends or at least acquaintances of yours, am I correct? Why not ask them if you can shove your plow in the back corner of one of their lots when not in use? At their house if you don't have your own property suitable for storage? Don't pay for something you can get for free. Besides, what are you going to do in the winter months when you are not paying for a storage locker? Leave the plow hanging off the front of your truck the entire winter taking 5mpg off your gas mileage, killing your front end? THINK about what you are saying, it makes no sense. There is also a built in spell check, its not hard to use, it won't fix stupid though. You can be hard to understand.

You dont need a damn business and a whole bunch of liability ins to plow a few lots for people you know. I would not start advertising my services to random people but you can probably work up a contract where your liability is eliminated or significantly reduced when working with known parties. On paper, no money needs to be exchanged.

Insurance, most on here are so legally correct these days that you wont often get anyone telling you not to spend many thousands on general liability, etc. The fact is many people plow for other people and take money for it but never have a bit of extra ins. Its up to you how much risk you want to take. You say you know these lot owners? If you are friends, you can probably work something out. If you want to make it a business and start soliciting a bunch of work from strangers yea, commercial and liability is pretty much a given. If you are limiting it to friends and family the risk is much lower but don't think they can't come after you if they really want to when somebody files a slip and fall against them. Talk to an attorney about a hold harmless agreement and you may get someplace. Remember, its always a risk.

Prices vary WIDELY by area of the country so its very hard to give exact numbers. Pricing a lot (or any snowplowing) by the hour is, in my opinion, stupid.

Two factors should be in play in a "per event" billing situation (thats the number "2", tracking?):

1) How big is the area to be plowed
2) How much snow is there

Scale your prices by how much you have to beat the living crap out of your equipment and how much time it takes to do the job. Size and snowfall are the important factors here. Forget your hourly BS. You get an inch and it would take you 15 min to do the lot but you pop a hose and have to fix it on the spot so it takes 1:15. What do you bill? A few cars get in your way and it takes 45 min, what do you bill? See how stupid that is???

Have a fixed price for 0-6", another for 6-12" another for 12-18" another for 18-24" another for 24"+. Thats how I do mine, no matter how many visits I have to make to keep up with the snow, the price goes up based on how much snow falls for the entire event.

Piecing a plow set up together for less than $1,000 is not going to yield good results. It will be more stress and trouble than you ever saved. You are more likely to find an old "beater" truck with a reliable old plow for $1500 ish than you are a decent setup for your current truck truth be told.

You do have one thing right, you realize right away that this snowplowing thing is not a cash cow. There are costs associated with it, its about the most stressful thing you can do to a vehicle, you are out in the most unforgiving and dangerous conditions possible. Often, if it can go wrong, it will!!! Making money in this game is a marathon, not a sprint, its not a get rich quick thing at all. People plow for a few reasons:

1) Their own property ie they have a big driveway at home or own a few places with lots, etc

2) They have a year round business doing landscaping and many customers want to have all services performed by same contractor. I know of many landscape company owners who want NOTHING to do with snow but plow so their loyal customers do not switch their spring/summer/fall services over to a contractor who does plow in addition to the other stuff.

3) They find it fun

4) For beer money: They quickly quit when they realize it wont even pay for that because their ****** setups and lack of maintenance leave them in the red and their customers looking elsewhere.


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