# 400 unit hoa



## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

looking of the best way to clear 400 residential drives in a large hoa. They range in size but most are not longer than 3 car lengths. They are very close together. The site in the Philadelphia area.


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## dingybigfoot (Jun 12, 2008)

Bobcat and a Kage.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Nope. Tractor with an inverted blower. There have been many threads on this in here. Most efficient way to clear many drives that are all next to each other.


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

Do the snow blower scratch the driveways at all?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

dingybigfoot said:


> Bobcat and a Kage.


Maybe 3 could get it done fast enough...


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

As Jarrett stated. It would take more than one, but yes, blowers scrape down to the surface.


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

What hp tractor and size blower would be recommended?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

What does each driveway pay, or is this a seasonal account? There are some good you tube videos on the blowers


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

blowers with shoes should not scratch them, concrete,asphalt?


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

The driveways are asphalt with a concrete apron and a 1" curb drop down to main road. 
The contract states that all blades must be poly or rubber cutting edges. I don't want to scratch them.


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

Most drives are like this one.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

How much snow did you get last year? Again, will this be a seasonal account?


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

Not a seasonal site. Contract is per inch. 
We had 2 plow events last year usually we have 6-12.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

rag245 said:


> Not a seasonal site. Contract is per inch.
> We had 2 plow events last year usually we have 6-12.


If you can't get this as a seasonal, and this Coming season is like the last few years, your going to loose. Not trying to be rude, just stating my opinion. And if they want no visible marks in the driveways. You would need a team of snowblowers.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

melt it off with liquid and charge accordingly


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

We have used skid loaders with back drag plows on smaller sites but the inverted blower seems like it would be a good option. I am trying to find the most efficient way to clear the site.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Most efficient is inverted blower.

Can you charge enough per service or inch to cover the cost of your equipment? I don't see any possible way you can do 400 drives with one blower tractor, and if it went down you'd be screwed.

Can you charge enough to cover the cost of 2 units? I personally think 2 will be maxed out on that number of drives.


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

There is also 8 miles of sidewalks and some small parking lots. We would need skid steers for some areas. I would like to at least get one tractor blower combo.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Where are you located? And what's your average snowfall per season?


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## R75419 (Feb 11, 2012)

You can hang a blade on the front of an ag tractor for the parking lots. If you have an ag tractor with a FEL you could put a snow pusher or a blade on that according to your needs. We were able to consistently service about 200 drives similar to that in under 4 hours. As others have suggested you would have to have 2 setups to ensure timely service as well avoid a potential catastrophe should your one tractor go down. That happened to us and I can assure you that an open station tractor with a back blade is a miserable option after about 45 minutes with no sun and the wind howling. The walks (if they are city walks) are relatively easy as well if you have a grasshopper with blower. If your new to all this plan on having double to triple the amount of sidewalk help you think is necessary because only a handful will show up. For the first time ever, this past season we had a sidewalk guy make every event on time earning his $2/hr season bonus.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Where are you located? And what's your average snowfall per season?


I think he said Phillie, PA. His best bet is two inverted blowers. That's a lot of coin if it doesn't snow.


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## delcosnow1 (Feb 11, 2016)

If you can afford it get a ventrac. You won't regret it. Atv for walks are great, fast, but you have to keep up with snow fall. Basically anything you can get a blower attached to.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Randall Ave said:


> I think he said Phillie, PA. His best bet is two inverted blowers. That's a lot of coin if it doesn't snow.


That kind of investment would almost require the purchase of some snow insurance, unless you have the tractors already or cash to burn.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

delcosnow1 said:


> If you can afford it get a ventrac. You won't regret it. Atv for walks are great, fast, but you have to keep up with snow fall. Basically anything you can get a blower attached to.


1025R makes a ventrac look stoopid on 99% of walks.

And for a 10k plus difference in cost, it makes a ventrac look stoopid on 100% of walks.


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## delcosnow1 (Feb 11, 2016)

Don't know about that. Maneuvering is key when dealing with walks, especially if 48" to 60" walks. That hands down has to go with ventrac. Not saying it's the best option outside of walks an tight spaces. Definitely expensive.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

The only thing a ventrac can do that a 1025 cannot is turn a 90* corner and keep the entire machine on the walk. 

That is not worth 10k. I have owned and operated both. Now I'm not saying they aren't worth it. If you have use for the machine in other seasons that nothing else can do, yes it would be easier to justify the difference. But as a strictly snow only machine, the benefit does not outweigh the cost. 

Now, back to the most efficient way to do these drives. Where's CamelTow at, I'm sure he'd be in here saying the op needs 10 wheel loaders, 5 skid steers, 4 pickups, and would only bill T/M and get 100k per event out of this site.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Here we go the Ventrac crap again. Where's Oomkes when you need him?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Ha.... cameltow.....I forget about that character.


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

The site is outside of Philadelphia. We average 24 inches of snow. I am not worried about the upfront investment. I want to have the best tools to complete the job.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rag245 said:


> Do the snow blower scratch the driveways at all?


No more or less than a plow does.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rag245 said:


> The driveways are asphalt with a concrete apron and a 1" curb drop down to main road.
> The contract states that all blades must be poly or rubber cutting edges. I don't want to scratch them.


I see the pic in your next post...are those really the curbs? What a stupid design.

You can get poly edges on blowers, they wear faster but they work.


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

Do you guys use brooms on the front of the 1025r for small storms?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JustJeff said:


> Here we go the Ventrac crap again. Where's Oomkes when you need him?


Defcon is the Ventrac Queen......

OP, for those drives you have 2 options for tractor\blowers. You can either go a bit smaller with the tractor and blower, like a 4 Series Deere and 82" blower or you could go with the next size up, the 5 Series with a 92".

400 driveways, which must be very close, and based on the length, I think I would go with a 4 Series and 82". I have no experience with these, but others who do have good things to say.

I don't know what the equivalent is in Kubota, so you'd have to do some research. They are good tractors, it would really depend on your preference and dealer.

For blowers, my personal opinion is stick with the Normand. I know some say the Pronovost are equal, but in my experience the Normand is far more robust and will accept more abuse. Even if it isn't really abuse, it was catching a manhole which the Normand had gone over numerous times the previous winter without an issue. And the Normand went over the rest of the season after the Pronovost was bent to crap to the tune of $1200 or $1800. Pissed me oof. Normand did that route last year without an issue as well.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rag245 said:


> Do you guys use brooms on the front of the 1025r for small storms?


Yes, depending on the width of the walks, the 1025 will handle the 60" HD broom just fine. Up to 6 or 8".


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

L6060 is the Kubota equivalent of a 4066R. Be a tick under in power though. 


rag245 said:


> Do you guys use brooms on the front of the 1025r for small storms?


Yes. Works great. Biggest event we've done with ours is about 6" and it gave no issues at all.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

rag245 said:


> The site is outside of Philadelphia. We average 24 inches of snow. I am not worried about the upfront investment. I want to have the best tools to complete the job.


I would be a little cautious with a tractor inverted set up with 24'' of snow and no seasonal monies every 30 days, There is no question the inverted is your best bet for the drives but has to be financially feasible. Skids and a truck or two with pull behinds will work you will work more hrs but not the responsibility of the investment of inverted. You do a search there are threads with scientific numbers in these threads. I would start reading these guys are somewhat beat up on inverted. It's kind of like gas verses diesel threads or new verses used. Then come back and let us know where the reading got your mind set,,


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

We have other sites that are seasonal and we own wheel loaders, backhoes, skid steers and 26 plow trucks but we don't have any experience with tractors. For walks now we use the snow rator, z sprays with plows, brooms, mini skids, and sometimes the wacker Wl30. Most of our snow work is commercial parking lots and a few smaller hoa.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Defcon is the Ventrac Queen......
> 
> OP, for those drives you have 2 options for tractor\blowers. You can either go a bit smaller with the tractor and blower, like a 4 Series Deere and 82" blower or you could go with the next size up, the 5 Series with a 92".
> 
> ...


I wasn't implying that you were the big advocate of Ventracs. If memory serves me right, I thought you were like Jarrett, and though that basically they were a waste of money when considered against other options for the same money.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm surprised that nobody's posted the youtube video of the guy doing the HOA drives with the inverted blower. I have no idea where to find it, but I believe that guy was doing a drive in about 30 seconds, right? I'd like to find a link for that video.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JustJeff said:


> I wasn't implying that you were the big advocate of Ventracs. If memory serves me right, I thought you were like Jarrett, and though that basically they were a waste of money when considered against other options for the same money.


Winner, winner...chicken dinner.

I can buy a tractor that has a multitude of attachments from hundreds of different manufacturers. Or I can buy a Ventrac that the only attachments are Ventrac attachments. All for less money than just the Ventrac traction unit.

My brand new 1025 with cab, heater, 60" broom, 54" blower and cost less than the lower model Ventrac. How much better does a Ventrac have to be to make up for that? Plus adding the attachments?

My 3046 (factory cab, heat, A/C) was probably about the same cost as the higher HP model Ventrac with attachments. BUT, I bought a Bauman hydraulic spreader on it that holds 1,100# of salt. Actually a bit more, but who's counting. The most salt a Ventrac spreader will hold is 400#. So in reality, for the same price, I can go 3 times as far on one load of salt.

I just can't make the numbers work for me.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Defcon is the Ventrac Queen......


Sew apparently I hurt the Ventrac Queen's feelings by calling him the queen.

I'm very concerned for my well being now. lololololol


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Sew apparently I hurt the Ventrac Queen's feelings by calling him the queen.
> 
> I'm very concerned for my well being now. lololololol


I hope its not as bad as someone about to testify against the Clintons.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Back on track. 

An Ebling back blade (or 2) with a poly edge would also be a good choice for this HOA.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Back on track.
> 
> An Ebling back blade (or 2) with a poly edge would also be a good choice for this HOA.


I'd hate my life more than Hillary hated hers on the day after the election if I had to do 400 drives with back blades.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I hope its not as bad as someone about to testify against the Clintons.


Nothing like that...a cig in one hand and a Buttwyper in the other, pretty sure not much will come of it. Although some mention was made of the Ventrac Whoop Ass attachment.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I'd hate my life more than Hillary hated hers on the day after the election if I had to do 400 drives with back blades.


I think doing 400 repetitive nearly identical drives with any piece of equipment would drive me nuts.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

once again, let's get back on topic...no need for the constant shots at one another in every single thread

thanks


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Lapeer...agreed...the only "fun" way to do it would be heated driveways.


Michael J. Donovan said:


> once again, let's get back on topic...no need for the constant shots at one another in every single thread
> 
> thanks


C'mon MJD, you gotta give us at least a little credit. We don't do it in EVERY thread...just most


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

What would be the biggest blower you would put on a kubota L6060?
Does the blower ride on the pavement on a cutting edge?
What does the back blade do behind the blower?


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## PRCS (Mar 26, 2017)

rag245 said:


> What would be the biggest blower you would put on a kubota L6060?
> Does the blower ride on the pavement on a cutting edge?
> What does the back blade do behind the blower?


Technically, the 82" Normand should be the largest blower based on PTO horse power, (I'm interested on others experience with this one as well, how would it do with a 92")

The blower rides on a cutting edge (of your choosing) along the bottom and the sides of the blower.

The back blade allows the operate to remove snow closer to objects like the garage door, and then catch it again with a second pass for final cleanup.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I see the pic in your next post...are those really the curbs? What a stupid design.
> 
> You can get poly edges on blowers, they wear faster but they work.


Those curbs would concern me...3 year contract with some verbiage addressing those curbs...Tractors with inverted blowers would be the smartest way to go...I don't think I would take this on a one year deal...As for Snow fall insurance...It's pricey and it's not a garentee of not losing money


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

Where would anyone reccomend purchasing a pronovost p-Inv-80?


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

there is a video on here showing one running


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rag245 said:


> Where would anyone reccomend purchasing a pronovost p-Inv-80?


Username: Image


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

We service an HOA with 304 driveways similar in size to your picture. We send 20 guys out with single stage Honda snowthrowers & shovels. Spotless in 5-6 hours on a 4" snow. Split crews up and you end up averaging a driveway getting cleared every minute or so. Just a thought!!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Holy carp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark???.....You may need to rethink your business plan....


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Here, they run to the next town, pick up truck loads of illegals, everyone gets a shovel.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

A driveway every minute is a pretty torrid pace to keep up on over 4-5 hours....Do you have the local EMS on site or do you just load the guys up on Meth and watch them go??


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> A driveway every minute is a pretty torrid pace to keep up on over 4-5 hours....Do you have the local EMS on site or do you just load the guys up on Meth and watch them go??


The question I have is: why??????????????????????????????


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> The question I have is: why??????????????????????????????


I have always said....You stick around here long enough you might just hear everything


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

Clearly each driveway is not cleared in 1 minute. Split crews and work through the community. Sections get cleared faster vs 1 tractor starting on one side and finishing the other side the day later. Your local roofing company can be a valuable asset on snow days


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

He said, 20 guys averaging a driveway s minute. Gotta wonder what the labor cost is. Actually here, the illegals don't work cheap anymore. Now they have there own gigs and are doing the actual work. But on the lower end of the scale.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

komplete said:


> Clearly each driveway is not cleared in 1 minute. Split crews and work through the community. Sections get cleared faster vs 1 tractor starting on one side and finishing the other side the day later. Your local roofing company can be a valuable asset on snow days


So...Everytime it snows...You can find 20 roofers to go out and shovel like a mad man..Most roofers I know..On a snow day they are either at a bar or sleeping one off


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Defcon 5 said:


> So...Everytime it snows...You can find 20 roofers to go out and shovel like a mad man..Most roofers I know..On a snow day they are either at a bar or sleeping one off


Same here.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Union roofers here make close to 40.00 per hour. I doubt you'd get any one of them to shovel for 15-20 per hour. And I don't see how the labor costs of 20 shovelers can be cheaper than buying/leasing equipment to get the job done.


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

Ha they must be a special breed but always show up and do great work. We have been doing the community for 5 years and the only time we have used any larger equipment (skid steers) was when we got nailed with a 12" snow. We busted everything open and then came back the next day to do the finishing touches.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

JustJeff said:


> Union roofers here make close to 40.00 per hour. I doubt you'd get any one of them to shovel for 15-20 per hour. And I don't see how the labor costs of 20 shovelers can be cheaper than buying/leasing equipment to get the job done.


Jeff....Lets not turn this into a Union discussion...You will get Oomkes,Buffy and the Boy from Arizona all riled up....


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I gotta ask, what do you pay the roofers to shovel snow? Not trying to be a wise guy, just trying to grasp what people pay in other parts of the country.


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

$20+- per hour give or take


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

So, 20+ per hour times 20 shovelers, times 5-6 hours. Minimum of 2,000-2,400 per occurrence. Times how many times per year? There is NO WAY this is cheaper than buying/leasing equipment.


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

A serious question is, could an operator keep up the pace of clearing 300-400 driveways in that amount of time with a tractor & blower or skid steer? Those garage doors get expensive when you have a slip up


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

komplete said:


> A serious question is, could an operator keep up the pace of clearing 300-400 driveways in that amount of time with a tractor & blower or skid steer? Those garage doors get expensive when you have a slip up


We have a few

I hope Mark chims in here with a response...He is probably sleeping in his John Deere Jammys so it might have to wait until morning....


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

Defcon 5 said:


> I hope Mark chims in here with a response...He is probably sleeping in his John Deere Jammys so it might have to wait until morning....


Yep


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What are the dimensions of the driveways?


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

Ours I was talking about are roughly 16x50'. Some get steep and all have rolled curbs at their entrance


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Wouldn't roofers be getting unemployment in the winter?.


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## delcosnow1 (Feb 11, 2016)

You must have better roofs in your area, I tried roofers, no luck around here. I need 25-35 ground guys a storm an it's nearly impossible to find anyone that lasts more the 4 hrs. Cost 20+hr an then they say that's not enough.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What are the dimensions of the driveways?


Can't make the math work, right?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So komplete is taking 3 minutes per drive; a truck with an Ebling would be 90 seconds tops if that; tractor/blower 45-60 seconds. Closer to 45, maybe less. And neither the truck or tractor need smoke breaks, rest breaks. And maybe 1 guy for cleaning along the door if they demand that. We only do that if they pay for sidewalk clearing. Knockon wood, not a door yet.

I don't even own 20 shovels.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

You forgot Beer Breaks...Although you could outfit the guys with the helmets with the can holders on them...That would shave some time oof.....


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

I think the math is a little off. We are right around average of a driveway every 1 minute. We also do directly in front of the door and the 20' sidewalk to the front door.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

You're right, using your numbers it's coming out to almost 20 minutes a driveway.

20x60x5=6,000 minutes
6,000/304=19.74 minutes.

Maybe I'm missing something, but those are the numbers you provided.

I need to use paper and pencil because I can't figure oot how you can shovel/blow a drive a minute using the numbers you provided.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If you're doing a driveway a minute, what are the other 5,700 minutes spent on?


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

6,000 minutes = 100 man hours in the job. Each driveway is not cleared in 1 minute, that is merely the average time for that particular job


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

I guess there are many ways to skin a cat...I'm always looking for the quickest and most efficient way to do things...20 guys running around with shovels in my opinion is far from efficient and cost effective way...

You said you have been doing it for five years...The amount you have paid in labor alone would have gone a long way to paying for two pretty nice tractor-blower combos...


The amount of Time and labor savings would be astounding....Those tractors would free you up to pursue another complex of equal size....


Of course this is just my opinion...Many on here know I'm just a drunken Union Monkey


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

This is also a 3" trigger community as is common around here in the HOA market. Some years we have only cleared 1-2 times the entire winter. I am a lot happier seeing a few small snowblowers sit than a nice shiny $75k tractor/blower. Indiana weather doesn't allow us the guaranteed snow of you northern boys


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

komplete said:


> 6,000 minutes = 100 man hours in the job. Each driveway is not cleared in 1 minute, that is merely the average time for that particular job


Right, that's what I said you said.

20 guys multiplied by 5 hours equals 100 man hours.

In Michigan, each hour has 60 minutes.

100 hours multiplied by 60 minutes equals 6,000 minutes.

6,000 minutes divided by 304 driveways equals 19.74 minutes per driveway.

Please enlighten me as to how my math is wrong.

Or, as you say, you average a drive per minute, that equals 304 minutes. So my question remains unanswered, where are the other 5,700 minutes spent?


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

6,000 minutes divided by 20 guys = 300 minutes

Divide not subtract


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm Befuddled....Literally


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I need a beer or 12....


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I need a beer or 12....


Is this, the new math? With 20 guys, they all don't work the same speed, how do they all get to the jobs? How does the equipment get there?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon and I have conferred, we're going to take a remedial million man math class together.

Should result in the end of at least a couple teachers' careers.

BTW, does anyone know if it is frowned upon to show up to class inebriated as an adult?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

komplete said:


> 6,000 minutes divided by 20 guys = 300 minutes
> 
> Divide not subtract


OK. So you have established that there are 300 minutes in 5 hours with your math. (5 hours*60 minutes per hour X 20 guys / 20 guys).

Mark is right, it comes out to just under 20 minutes per drive. You wind up doing about a drive per minute overall because you have 20 people working. So each person does about 3 drives per hour, or 15 drives in 5 hours. 20 people working makes 300 drives in 5 hours. If you have 2 person crews, one shoveling and one blowing, then it is taking 10 minutes per unit. No matter how you slice it, it takes about 20 man-minutes per unit.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Mark is right, it comes out to just under 20 minutes per drive.


Whew....I was really starting to doubt my basic math abilities.

Now that I've had a union monkey and engineer confirm my math, I feel better.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Thats the new common core math where 1 apple + 1 apple = rabbits


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Can I just interject one thing...One Ventrac does the work of 12 men...


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Can I just interject one thing...One Ventrac does the work of 12 men...


Only 12


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Defcon 5 said:


> Can I just interject one thing...One Ventrac does the work of 12 men...





LapeerLandscape said:


> Only 12


Yes.....12


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Whew....I was really starting to doubt my basic math abilities.
> 
> Now that I've had a union monkey and engineer confirm my math, I feel better.


So really the 20 men are averaging a drive a minute not each man a drive a minute.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Can I just interject one thing...One Ventrac does the work of 12 men...


Shouldn't it be 12 rabbits???


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> So really the 20 men are averaging a drive a minute not each man a drive a minute.


I have no idea.

I too, am literally befuddled.


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

As rag245 mentioned earlier his job is a per inch contract. One or even 2 tractors with blowers is a lot of coin to shell out if it doesn't snow. What kind of price would others do a job like this for?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Depends on how many minutes in an hour I have to work with.


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## komplete (Nov 20, 2009)

59. That will give 1 minute for tips and incidentals


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Thats the new common core math where 1 apple + 1 apple = rabbits


I don't Carrot all for that kind of math.


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

Id suggest that in a low snow market, that a contract paying strictly per inch with a 3 inch trigger, has identified themselves as a client you dont want. But thats just me.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

AGAIN, let's get back on point...no need for the same few to continue taking every (almost every) thread off topic with their back and forth banter 

thanks


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> AGAIN, let's get back on point...no need for the same few to continue taking every (almost every) thread off topic with their back and forth banter
> 
> thanks


Before someone figures out how to do the work, they should decide if its work they want. Im totally on point. You're welcome!


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> AGAIN, let's get back on point...no need for the same few to continue taking every (almost every) thread off topic with their back and forth banter
> 
> thanks


Most times im with you...But there are some very good teaching points in this thread...Someone throws out numbers or claims that Befuddle me...I'm gonna question it...Yes..There is some tomfoolery and shenanigans..


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

komplete said:


> As rag245 mentioned earlier his job is a per inch contract. One or even 2 tractors with blowers is a lot of coin to shell out if it doesn't snow. What kind of price would others do a job like this for?


I don't remove snow professionally, so I will probably get most of what's below wrong, but I want to procrastinate a bit today.

My gut feel, based on being a engineering consultant, is that it doesn't matter what others would charge for it....what matters is what you could do it for and still make a reasonable profit.

There appear to be two primary competing business models, one tractor/inverted blower, one walk behind blowers as the primary means of snow removal. Both would have to have shovelers and maybe a small blower for edges/walks. Do the math on both and see what makes sense. If you can't win the bid for that amount, you don't want the work.

About 1 minute for the inverted blower, but with the edges the way they are, maybe 4 man minutes per drive (this is a complete WAG just to illustrate the math). The other is 20 man minutes per drive. 8000 man minutes versus 1600 man-minutes. If you have to pay people $25 an hour in your location (cost to company including workers comp, etc.) So the payroll is $3333 for one and $667 for the other per event. Then add in the fuel required.

Figure out the capital cost (2 tractors with inverted blowers + a few walk behinds + shovels) versus 20 or so walk behinds and shovels. Trucks and trailers to move the workers and tractors/blowers. Amortize the capital over 5 years or so, and divide by the average number of events.

Add in your insurance cost for the season, divided by number of events.

Then multiply your costs by whatever profit you are comfortable with (25%, 30%?) and that's your number for either scenario.

If the tractor/blowers come out cheaper, then you may need to get creative with the HOA to reduce your risk. For example, you might have a retainer that covers your insurance and capital, and then charge a lower per event or inch charge.


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

Tractor choice is between the kubota l6060 or the John Deere 4052r. John Deere came in at 39,000 with no loader. Kubota 41,000. John Deere has a nicer cab. Kubota has more power. I plan to run a 80 pronovost. 

One idea we had since the driveways are so tight was to pull snow in the street with skid loaders and blow into front lawns. Anyone ever tried that?


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

why move the snow twice if you dont have to....
i think i would want a seasonal rate, and charges for above a 12 inch snow


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> AGAIN, let's get back on point...no need for the same few to continue taking every (almost every) thread off topic with their back and forth banter
> 
> thanks


why not?...unless you want the forum to stagnate like a lot of others, ive always said if it is not fun its not worth it.....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rag245 said:


> Tractor choice is between the kubota l6060 or the John Deere 4052r. John Deere came in at 39,000 with no loader. Kubota 41,000. John Deere has a nicer cab. Kubota has more power. I plan to run a 80 pronovost.
> 
> One idea we had since the driveways are so tight was to pull snow in the street with skid loaders and blow into front lawns. Anyone ever tried that?


You're wasting time. Blow as much as possible before removing the air...especially with the lower HP tractor.

We plow/blow roads first, then do the driveways.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

LapeerLandscape said:


> So really the 20 men are averaging a drive a minute not each man a drive a minute.


Yes looks that way. 1 man takes 20min to do a drive. 20 men take 1min to do the same drive. 20 men to keep up with a tractor for 4 or 5 hours. Tractor doesnt get tired, operator can go 15 or 20 or more.

Wow, I have trouble getting 3 guys to come out consistently. Comp, payroll paperwork....

Have to give credit for making that operation work. I'll pass myself...


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## R75419 (Feb 11, 2012)

One idea we had since the driveways are so tight was to pull snow in the street with skid loaders and blow into front lawns. Anyone ever tried that?[/QUOTE]

This can be done somewhat efficiently if the drives in the opposite side of the street are offset. The tractor and blower is generally quick enough to do its side of the road and clean up the stuff in the road from the other side. This works if you have a big enough tractor to go over the windrow left by the skidsteer. A bad operator in the skid steer or exceptionally wet snow with a smaller and lower hp tractor can go bad quickly with increased plug ups decreasing productivity.


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

What tire option would be the best for the kubota? The machine in only going to be used for snow and there is almost no drive time on streets.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I think I saw somewhere that you can get Nokian's as a factory option on Kubota stuff now. Maybe that's just Kannada.


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## rag245 (Aug 12, 2017)

Tire options


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Username: Image


Thanks. I don't get on here much. I'll try to be a little more active with winter approaching. But if anyone wants more info on purchasing an inverted blower the best way to reach me is by email [email protected] or text me at 218-205-7198


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## SDLandscapes VT (Dec 17, 2008)

Man I need to get on this forum more for threads like this. Complex mathematics, ventrac analysis, union roofers.

Turfs on the Kubota---the narrow turf tires, 80" pronovost better choice for that tractor. While the L6060 and JD 4066r can easily handle the 82" normand we have found in the more saturated east coast snows that even with 700# weight on the front of the machine the normand is too heavy. Love my 92" normands on the bigger machines for sure so this isn't a bash against normand. 

Really good operator on those drives as shown figure ~45-50 drives per hour with the smaller tractor. Good big tractor operator and you d be in the 60 per hour range


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