# Brine, Beet Juice, Calcium - What is the best product or combination based on my cost



## absolutely (Dec 9, 2010)

We are in a region were I can get Sodium Chloride for $.83 gallon picked up, Beet Juice for $.53 gallon picked up and Calcium Chloride for $.52 a gallon delivered. We are mainly treating salt at the spinner and are currently working on a truck sprayer for pre treating (1000 gallon). Should I just use calcium for everything? Please give me some advice. Ultimately we are trying to reduce our salt consumption at a cost of $135 a ton delivered and give our customer the best outcome.

Thanks for the help.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

PM me your e-mail and I'll give you my recommendations. 

Just saw your business card, but I don't feel like going through my stack of cards again. lol


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## Jet Stream (Sep 6, 2014)

I can get you a truckload delivered (+-4400 gallons) for 50 cents a gallon in Michigan.

While exact concentrations will vary slightly, our liquid calcium chloride product contains:
21 to 24% Calcium Chloride
4.11 to 5% Magnesium Chloride
1.68 to 2% Potassium Chloride
3.78 to 4% Sodium Chloride

Let me know if I can help. Susan, Jet Stream Fuels, 786-566-0195 [email protected]

Have you seen our ad here on Plowsite? We have salt in stock -- bulk, bagged and brine delivered to you by the truckload. WE DID NOT RUN OUT OF SALT LAST YEAR!


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1895575 said:


> PM me your e-mail and I'll give you my recommendations.
> 
> Just saw your business card, but I don't feel like going through my stack of cards again. lol


I would like to hear what you have to say about it also.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape;1895587 said:


> I would like to hear what you have to say about it also.


I'd rather type it once, so send me your e-mail as well.


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## absolutely (Dec 9, 2010)

Mark Oomkes;1895575 said:


> PM me your e-mail and I'll give you my recommendations.
> 
> Just saw your business card, but I don't feel like going through my stack of cards again. lol


Sent, Thanks, Mark!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Email sent.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;1895690 said:


> Email sent.


Thank you Mark


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

One of you guys mind forwarding it to me? [email protected]

Thanks!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

John_DeereGreen;1895791 said:


> One of you guys mind forwarding it to me? [email protected]
> 
> Thanks!


Don't do it.

Lol

I did.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Thanks Mark!


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Wheres my email????...........I thurst for knowledge........


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5;1895798 said:


> Wheres my email????...........I thurst for knowledge........


Didn't think your daughter was home to read it to you yet.


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## STARSHIP (Dec 18, 2000)

This liquid salt rookie is eager to learn too. We have been treating our bulk salt at the spinner with a state-of-the-art 25 gallon Tractor Supply 4GPM system for 2 years now, lol, but would like to move into more liquids. Eventually we plan to set up a liquid only rig. If I could get that email as well, that would be awesome. My email is [email protected].


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## msm63 (Jan 28, 2005)

Would like to hear more about this to, if either Mark or Josh are up for sharing I would appreciate it.

[email protected]


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## Icemelters (Sep 24, 2011)

Beet juice is usually Mag based and the chloride weight is the lowest of the brine solutions

Calcium (probably mineral well brine) holds the most chlorides in solution

Sodium holds the second most chlorides in solution

Potassium isn't worth mentioning

So of the choices here's what you are paying for the chloride

Beet juice is about 20% chloride in solution--each percent of equates to lbs of chloride per gallon (the water melts nothing) -- so in this mixture you are getting about 2 lbs of chloride per gallon

CC well brine comes about 27% on average (hopefully you get more) so you have 2.7lbs of chloride per gallon

Sodium chloride (rock salt dissolved in water) normally is made to a 23.3% solution or about 2.3lbs of chlorides per gallon

Amount of gallons that equal 1 ton of rock salt

Beet juice 2000/2.0 = 1000 gal x .53 = $530 per ton equiv.
CC 2000/2.7 = 740 gal x .52 = $384 per ton equivalent
Na 2000/2.3 = 870 gal x .83 = $722 per ton equivalent

Each of these solutions will activate your rock salt at the spinner at almost the same rate--use the cheapest one per ton of salt equivalent


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## R&R Yard Design (Dec 6, 2004)

I would like to see it also. [email protected]


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## Winteriscoming (Dec 10, 2014)

I do like your thought process Icemelters. They sell beet juice out there plain too, but we have all learned over the years that the beet by-products are not so "hot". Anyone adding water to nacl to make a nacl brine, IMO, is wasting time and money. Water, ice, is what you're trying to melt, why dilute your brs? Sure if you want to make a dusting go away at 30degreesF its fine but out of that your not accomplishing much. Treat it with an obpe liquid, preferably cacl based and move on.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Icemelters;1896337 said:


> Beet juice is usually Mag based and the chloride weight is the lowest of the brine solutions


Does beet juice contain mag naturally?

Or is it being added? Like Magic or whatever the crap they're calling it this year.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Winteriscoming;1896414 said:


> I do like your thought process Icemelters. They sell beet juice out there plain too, but we have all learned over the years that the beet by-products are not so "hot". Anyone adding water to nacl to make a nacl brine, IMO, is wasting time and money. Water, ice, is what you're trying to melt, why dilute your brs? Sure if you want to make a dusting go away at 30degreesF its fine but out of that your not accomplishing much. Treat it with an obpe liquid, preferably cacl based and move on.


brs?

obpe?

Please school me oh most wise one.

When applying sodium chloride to snow or ice, are we not adding water to sodium chloride? Are you saying that is a waste?

The only thing I have to say is that the claims made by some that they are de-icing with 50 or 60 gallons per acre is bovine excrement, at least in Michigan. Maybe out West where snow is generally a lower moisture content and the sun usually comes out after a storm.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;1896480 said:


> brs?
> 
> The only thing I have to say is that the claims made by some that they are de-icing with 50 or 60 gallons per acre is bovine excrement, at least in Michigan. Maybe out West where snow is generally a lower moisture content and the sun usually comes out after a storm.


It amazes me that some people are able to say this to sell their product when they know for a fact that it's a grossly underestimated number.

Especially when they're in the same state as you...


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## Icemelters (Sep 24, 2011)

Mark--sometimes I assume people understand more than I should. Beet juice is a wonderful tacifier--not a very good melter of snow and ice. Most ag products are developed to use with a melter--as you know--Mag, CC or Sodium will all work with beet juice. We find most mixtures that come pre-mixed with beet juice and sold to the unsuspecting contractor has Mag in it. 

We all have to remember a lot of the initial sales material was created based from experiences with Lane Miles--NOT parking lot square footage. Today we have more experience with parking lot usage and I hate to see guys paying so much money for so little melting gain when they use additives. Especially in Michigan--other markets don't have what we have in brine wells. 

I don't see any advantage at the prices being paid in this post--I'd rather keep over salting at $135 per rock salt ton than add any of these additives at any time at a $300, $400, $500 or more price per ton equivalent--especially in Michigan when (with a little financial commitment) can get well brine for less than .25 per gallon. These components do add value if price was not a concern--but weighing price with performance--not very profitable. 

Just remember 100 gallons of salt brine is about 23 lbs of rock salt melting power--that's it. If you use it at the spinner you will speed up the melting process so your driver can see quicker results and you may not have to over-salt to get your visual results--it will not however add any additional overall melting of snow--It's not gallons you are buying--it's chlorides in the gallons. 

Salt brine at .15 (23.3%)has more overall financial melting power per ton of rock salt equivalent than mineral well brine (27%) at .25 per gallon--(both of these solutions work to a negative temp value) which is normally fine for south Michigan winters -- for me it's a profit conversation only.

Even at .15 per gallon--you are still paying $130 per ton equivalency--so why would anyone try and melt snow with brine when you can simply use rock salt--if you have it. In the listed example if this guy is only buying beet juice and has to add a chloride to the mix--beet juice becomes a horrible financial decision.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So if you cut that in half, as some claim, they can clear an acre with 12-13 pounds of salt. 

Simply amazing. 

Beet juice has other benefits, it should not be a cost driven decision only.


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## Icemelters (Sep 24, 2011)

I know Mark--crazy boasts by liquid sellers. We use about 150 gal on ave/acre--AFTER plowing. (That's about 345 lbs of rock salt per acre)

I know there are scientific reasons for beet juice and textbook answers--we used many gallons of Magic and Beet juice and have had little to show for it. The City of Farmington Hills uses it in advance of a snow storm as a tacifier for their salt brine -- again lane miles and keeping on the street surface--regarding parking lots--not much benefit to us--I'm sure others have different opinions

Our best environment answer is to simply use the least amount of chlorides to accomplish our needs


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## Winteriscoming (Dec 10, 2014)

brs- bulk rock salt
obpe- organic based performance enhancer


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## Winteriscoming (Dec 10, 2014)

Right again icemelters- use the least amount possible to accomplish the most and you'll be doing the best you can for the environment. Its not the fact that most liquid manufactures claim their products are "friendlier" on the environment that helps in the long run. Its the fact that when you use a good one to treat your brs you will use tons upon tons of less brs which is where most of the chloride overuse/pollution is coming from. Example- contractor a puts down 10 tons of brs. contractor b, to do the same area with same given conditions, uses 4 tons of treated brs(with each ton containing 6-12 gallons of an obpe, lets say 25 gallons total or 250 pounds) the gallons of obpe are almost non measurable when compared to the 6 tons, 12,000 pounds, of brs contractor b was able to avoid using. 

Most guys use de-icers to anti ice. Anti icers to de-ice and get all frustrated. And there is much confusion as to the "right way" to use each tool in the tool box that you have available. 

Using a granular de-icer, brs/treated brs/ salt brine/etc prior to a large snow storm only dilutes the product as it melts the first snow that falls. Then, with cold ground temps, you have just created your own ice under the accumulating snow. The state of NJ does it all the time with straight cacl "pre-treatments". In the event of a 1-2 inch storm with higher temps that is the way to go on roads, burn it all off with the help of traffic. However in an accumulating event, lets say over 2-3 inches with ground temps in the twenties or lower, one should try to use an anti-icer. If they cant they are better off doing nothing, plowing and then de-icing. An anti-icer will melt snow less aggressively, create a barrier between the pavement and snow so that hard pack can not bond with pavement. Then you are able to plow it off easily and when you de-ice some of the anti icer that remains will aid in activating the de-icer faster. There are not many anti icers on the market, Magic ice be gone (or whatever they call it now), IB2575, IB793, Thermapoint, some beet juice products are examples of an anti icer. The goal in an anti icer being to have a higher amount of obpe liquids rather than just straight salts(de-icers). Oil on your frying pan. If im de-icing and I want to melt as much snow and ice as possible without using a lot of material I always use IB4060 treated rock salt. My point before was why try to de-ice with a brine solution?(such as brs added to water). You have water on the ground, just use the granular brs and avoid trucking around more water? Unless you are trying to make a dusting disappear with no traffic or you are in a region where temps do not fall much below freezing, I dont see the point of any using any straight salt brines.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Winteriscoming;1901849 said:


> brs- bulk rock salt
> obpe- organic based performance enhancer


Huh, and here I always called it salt and foo foo dust.

Now I can be fancy too.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Winteriscoming;1901858 said:


> Right again icemelters- use the least amount possible to accomplish the most and you'll be doing the best you can for the environment. Its not the fact that most liquid manufactures claim their products are "friendlier" on the environment that helps in the long run. Its the fact that when you use a good one to treat your brs you will use tons upon tons of less brs which is where most of the chloride overuse/pollution is coming from. Example- contractor a puts down 10 tons of brs. contractor b, to do the same area with same given conditions, uses 4 tons of treated brs(with each ton containing 6-12 gallons of an obpe, lets say 25 gallons total or 250 pounds) the gallons of obpe are almost non measurable when compared to the 6 tons, 12,000 pounds, of brs contractor b was able to avoid using.
> 
> Most guys use de-icers to anti ice. Anti icers to de-ice and get all frustrated. And there is much confusion as to the "right way" to use each tool in the tool box that you have available.
> 
> Using a granular de-icer, brs/treated brs/ salt brine/etc prior to a large snow storm only dilutes the product as it melts the first snow that falls. Then, with cold ground temps, you have just created your own ice under the accumulating snow. The state of NJ does it all the time with straight cacl "pre-treatments". In the event of a 1-2 inch storm with higher temps that is the way to go on roads, burn it all off with the help of traffic. However in an accumulating event, lets say over 2-3 inches with ground temps in the twenties or lower, one should try to use an anti-icer. If they cant they are better off doing nothing, plowing and then de-icing. An anti-icer will melt snow less aggressively, create a barrier between the pavement and snow so that hard pack can not bond with pavement. Then you are able to plow it off easily and when you de-ice some of the anti icer that remains will aid in activating the de-icer faster. There are not many anti icers on the market, Magic ice be gone (or whatever they call it now), IB2575, IB793, Thermapoint, some beet juice products are examples of an anti icer. The goal in an anti icer being to have a higher amount of obpe liquids rather than just straight salts(de-icers). Oil on your frying pan. If im de-icing and I want to melt as much snow and ice as possible without using a lot of material I always use IB4060 treated rock salt. My point before was why try to de-ice with a brine solution?(such as brs added to water). You have water on the ground, just use the granular brs and avoid trucking around more water? Unless you are trying to make a dusting disappear with no traffic or you are in a region where temps do not fall much below freezing, I dont see the point of any using any straight salt brines.


Holy crapola, 6-12 gallons per ton? Might as well just apply a liquid, or buy a slurry maker.

Anyone recommending 12 gallons per ton is immediately suspect. Any of the foo foo dusts I have used--all of them--would result in losing at least 6 of those 12 gallons per ton right down the drain. And only a hydraulic brss (bulk rock salt spreader--I can make up cool acronyms too) would be able to spread what hasn't run out the back of the truck. You are the first and only person I have ever run across that has recommended 12 gallons per ton, unless trying to create a slurry mix.

AS for the rest, there really isn't a difference between anti- and de-icers, the difference is the application rate. We started anti-icing before anyone in this industry knew what anti-icing was (early 90's) with salt (or brs for the cool kids) and have always had excellent results. Because the chemicals all work the same way.

Not sure who you are or what real life experiences are, but much of your "advice" is bovine excrement.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I saw a post from another member a couple weeks back regarding prewet systems on v boxes, and he said that he's spraying on the spinner a 35 gallon tank of (I believe it was salt brine/CACL mix) on a 2 yard v box load of salt.

Seemed excessive to me, but I've never done it myself, either...


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## Winteriscoming (Dec 10, 2014)

For those of you interested... The more obpe you can put into your dry brs the faster your de-icer will activate, the longer residual it will have, less bounce and scatter/more adhesion and the less brs you will use. Saving you money and the environment unnecessary damage. Your gas/electric v-box spreader will throw it just fine. And no its not a slurry unless you start with wet salt. Many areas can not get dry mined salt and I know that is a problem. For those of you who can get dry salt add your IB4060/Magic/Magic ice be gone/etc to the point right before its about to leach out(this will range from 6-12 gallons depending on how dry your salt is, we get 10-12 using IB4060 all day long all winter long). Keep in mind straight cacl/mgcl has no adhesion and you will not be able to get more than a few gallons per ton in, for example- clearlane, triple treat, any product that just takes mgcl and adds food coloring to it. 

Anti icing and de-ing are two very different things if you have both products available in your market and are very storm dependent. A material that aggressively melts snow as it falls during a plowable event is not a good anti-icer, its a de-icer like brs, treated brs, striaght cacl/mgcl brines etc. Once again, you want to create a barrier between the hardpack and pavement, not melt snow, dilute your brs and create your own ice. IB2575 is an example of a good anti icer, beet juice would be too if it didnt freeze. (for those of you who havent tried this- take beet juice add a stick and put it in your home freezer, next morning you have beeticles) Bulk rock salt, cacl/mgcl is an example of a de-icer. Can you pre-treat with a de-icer, of course, but I would only do that if you plan on burning off whats coming and/or your ground/air temps are not that cold. If you are getting enough snow, say 6-10 inches, and ground temps are 12f than making water is a horrible idea. An anti icer before the storm will also help activate your de-icer when that goes down after the final. Yes cacl/mgcl is in anti icers but so are the organics that not only reduce corrosion but will not enable your anti icer to melt as aggressively. 

De-ice with treated bulk rock salt. Anti ice plowable storms with liquids. 

This is all more of an east coast/northeast thing as we have all of the materials. I understand you may not be in an area where this method is possible.


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## SnowMatt13 (Jan 8, 2003)

I pre wet salt between 20 and 40 gallons per ton with an 80/20 blend of brine GeoMelt55 (beet juice). I also anti ice with the same blend.
Right now we use plain rock salt but are going to using a product called Thawrox from North American and in plan to treat at the same quantities.


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## Lynden-Jeff (May 21, 2006)

I haven't really read through the other posts in this thread as I have zero interest in commercially blended ice melters of which ive tried many. From my experience:

- If wetting at the spinner a proper % pure calcium chloride product is far superior to anything else you could use. The fact that its hygroscopic and also produces heat from this process makes it extremely powerful at assisting rocksalt turn in to a brine once applied. 

- Mag Chloride I have no interest in, ive seen what it does to the copper wiring on trucks, id rather just deal with the metal corrosion from calcium

- Beet juice has been popular around here although I firmly believe its only value is in prevent salt from "bouncing" off the roadway when being spread by municipal trucks doing 25+ MPH. In private commercial lots I want my salt to bounce in to corners, under cars etc

- Well brine is not popular where I am and not commercial available. I would be skeptical unless from a very reliable source. I have access to DOW calcium chloride so I know its on point every time. 

Good luck.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

One thing for sure about liquids - there is so much conflicting info out there that is overwhelming. The variables involved with temp and snow moisture content just add other layers of uncertainty.

The few in our area that I've spoken with and they've said the amounts they use on certain lots - the cost justification just isn't there even at 150/ton for bulk and .25 for well brine.

The pretreating benefit, yes, I see that. The prevention of an opps, we DeeJayyed a parking lot and could bring the street sweepers in, I see that too. 

The fear of creating a skating rink, the conflicting info - I just don't know how we'd ever go that direction aside from experimenting with a small volume. We will eventually treat at the spinner with Ca for a quicker reaction at colder temps but only on certain nights.


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## SnowMatt13 (Jan 8, 2003)

I will say to you guys on the private side, the same thing we tell munis.....you have to do whatever helps you achieve your level of service promised the most efficiently. We as munis are similar is some ways to the private side in which we both have customers and customer service if you will. You are bound by your contract for services as we are with our snow and ice policies. Having said that, different products in different regions will perform better than others. Our saying is have a variety of "tools" in your tool box. Will liquid ever replace salt....no. Having the ability to do more with a straight product or blend is an advantage versus dry material. Example: Cal. chloride may be a must in the colder regions of the country where simple, cheap, brine may be a prefect liquid option in some southern states. If there were a "magic" blend, trust me someone would be rich and we would all have it. I personally have set my department up with a blend. One blend for everything. Does it cover all situations....no but I would bet it covers 90% of them in my area. We are also set up to anti-ice, pre-wet and do DLA (direct liquid application) post event clean-up. Bottom line you have to find what works for you. There is so much info out there you are right, your head will spin. My suggestion is find someone local and see what they do and their feedback. I will tell you I am satisfied with my blend....try and use it in Northern Minnesota and you will get a much different opinion...


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I post treated salt with window wash.

It worked.


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## iPlowNH (Mar 10, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1895594 said:


> I'd rather type it once, so send me your e-mail as well.


I hate to comment on an old thread but could you email me as well? Please? 
Thanks either way.
[email protected]


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'll see if I can dig it up.

Check your email, I sent it a couple minutes ago.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

SnoFarmer;1913505 said:


> I post treated salt with window wash.
> 
> It worked.


It works, done it many times.


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