# Private Road ?



## Flake Chaser (Dec 17, 2006)

I was contacted by a homeowners assoc. about doing a private road. I'm wondering how some of you bid these. Is it by the foot ? My other commercial is by the hour but it wouldn't take me very long to do this. It's 900 ft of road that's 20 ft wide. I'll be plowing it with a F-350 w/a 8' blade which I normally get $125 per hr with salt/sand.
Thanks for any input
Pete


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## Flake Chaser (Dec 17, 2006)

OK I read post further down on private road but it doesn't seem to help. No way in hell am I plowing a 900 ft road for half my hourly rate. Just doesn't seem right. I have driveways that pay almost the same and are shorter.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Not sure what you're saying with that second post, but how long do you think it'll take you for that 900' road? At 20' wide, I'd say it's three passes. Depending on the condition, I'd think maybe 15 - 20 minutes (max). I'd do about 3/4 mi rough road with sharp turns and two hills in 10 minutes with a one ton and 9' plow, but it was only 12' wide. 

Why not think of it as a big driveway and charge accordingly?


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## Flake Chaser (Dec 17, 2006)

In this forum somebody else asked the same question but I didn't see it


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Micks driveway idea is great. That's all it really is. Don't forget to allow for your travel time when you bid. The length of time required includes devoted travel. The further off your normal path the more you should charge.

Maybe you could wrap the road and all three drives into one package? then the road would be gravy moneypayup


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## Flake Chaser (Dec 17, 2006)

Well put a bid in for $375 with sand per plow and also bidding on another one for $445 with sand. I told them I would give a discount on driveways. Hoping to get my foot in the door for landscaping next year. I've got my fingers crossed for now. Should know by Monday on both.
Pete


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

You bid $375 to plow 900' x 20' ? That's less than 1/5 of a mile. At your rate; you're charging $660 per mile. 

I'd be interested in how it comes out.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

Wow, 
I too would like to hear how your bid came out.
That's like 2 to 3 hours of pay around here (about the same rates as you charge) for what I think is about 20 to 30 minutes of actual work.
i think you are way high, I'm interested to hear (and I hope I'm wrong and you get it)


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## BHISNOWMAN (Aug 27, 2006)

*Private Road Rates Residential*

I am in Fairfield, CT. For that size road I would get [email protected] year, [email protected] year and [email protected] 3 years, contract only, sanding extra, all attached driveways extra, every 3 to 7 inches of snow.


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## Flake Chaser (Dec 17, 2006)

*I tweaked the numbers*

3-6 = $345
6-10 = $470
10-15 = $750
15-20 = $875
The last guy did it for dirt cheap so I'm sure it"ll be a hard sell but contact guy willing to work with me.

Other drive 1170 ft
3-6 = $375
6-10 = $500
10-15 = $750
15-20 = $975

By the time you get done with fuel, insurance, sand/salt, wear/tear and paying me I don't think price is high and if it's oh well. I'd rather stay home than lose money and I can't compete with the out of work contractor, construction work or suit looking to make money on the side to pay for is $40,000 daily driver :realmad:. I'll keep ya posted


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

OMG - you might want to think about changing your business name after those two bids.... And you might want a good foot doctor cause it's gonna get cut off in that door.

At that price, that place could be 75 minutes outa your way (one way) and you'd still be making 125 per hour. 

A 900 foot by 20 foot curved road is 15 minutes worth of work....

I just don't understand the difficulties some have in the bidding process. It's all how long will it take and how much do we need to bill per hour..... If your not sure how long it will take, work for someone for a year, learn, absorb everything. If you're still unsure maybe just don't bid it. A bid at two or three times the real price will only crush your business name....

Two things that really stand out on this site are:

1) In areas with alot of snowfall, plowers work more often and become more effecient at getting a job done. More often than not, a guy from Buffalo will flat out embarass a guy from Philly. An employee was on the east coast last year and seen this first hand. It's no offense - when you do something nite after nite 30 nites a year, you will be quicker than the guy that works maybe 5 nites.

2) Prices are all over the board....... Chicago pays subs 75 per hour, some places are lucky to bill 50 per hour - why? Who knows and wishing or hoping is just that. Provide a dang good service and bill what the market will bear and then some. In this economy, fraekin loyalty is starting to go out the window.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Flake Chaser;434778 said:


> 3-6 = $345
> 6-10 = $470
> 10-15 = $750
> 15-20 = $875
> ...


i dont blame you at all. i would just as soon sit home than work cheap too.

if im going out plowing i want it to be worth my while.


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## Jbowe (Mar 22, 2006)

*How much*

Well if you look at my post 2007 you will see pics of a road that I do thats 3/4th of a mile long. I timed it last week when he had about 12" of snow give or take an inch. Its a two pass job for the road and the house takes about 10 minuts. Total for the entire job is 30 minutes and believe me when I say its a rough gravel road. I would never charge 375 to do it. I make a good profit on the road but when my normal is 125 an hr how would I justify over 300 for 30 minutes. I do surcharge it though because of its location but that still is no where near 300 dollars. Long roads are fast and easy so theres no real reason to gouge anyone, especially if your looking for other work from them. Just my thought


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

it's hard for a NOOB to judge roads i don't think they realize how quick they go. 900' will take no-time i can do it while holding a cup of cofee an talking on the cell phoneLOL but when you take a normal driveway plower and throw him on the road he is lost i think the numbers are HIGH to say the least but i hope he gets the job anyway. 

i plow ~40miles for about $100 per lane mile so there is ~10,500 feet in a mile and road plowing is ALOT more enjoyable than drives for me

p.s. i ain't calling you under experianced plowing maybe just under experianced plowing roads 

but to answer the Q' at hand.....my price would be about $70 plus a LITTLE drive time


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## Flake Chaser (Dec 17, 2006)

*well......*

Just to let all you know yes this is my first"road bid" but on the other hand for another commercial job I get $400 for just over and hour. These are 4 small lots that take me no longer than10-15 min and hit the sander quick on the way out. Gouging NO making money in MY MARKET *YES*. I price my work by the foot on driveways not how long it will take me. If people don't want to pay my prices fine but those who do get exceptional services.

P.S. I get $1 per foot to edge a flower bed but not more than .50 for plowing and it takes a hell of alot more to plow


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

sorry i did'nt know your prices........then why don't you turn in a bid for $450X2directions


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

This is not meant to put you down at all. It's just that I think this is part of the problem - sq ft pricing. You can plow a whole lot faster than you can do lawn maint and if you're using the right equipment, it won't be harder on it, comparitively. I ALWAYS advise people (just did it again today on the phone) to price roads by the mile/lane mile; NOT by the sq ft. Set a rate per mi, then adjust for hills, curves, condition of the road etc. It's great to say you give you customers great service and you'd rather sit home than plow for cheap, but at the same time you have to figure out what's the going rate for your area and be competitive. Starting out or branching into a new area, you're going to need something to be a hook. Nobody has an idea of your service until you have done a few jobs.

If you're wanting this job, I'd really suggest either finding out what the going rate is in your area or pay attn to some on here who are fairly close to you. I simply don't know anyone anywhere who gets the kind of money you're talking about. If I could do that, I'd only need maybe three one-mile roads and I'd be set.

re: time per foot for edging vs plowing - I can plow 10' in about one second. How long does it take you to edge 10' of flower bed?


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## Flake Chaser (Dec 17, 2006)

I do this for what I can to cover expenses and turn a profit. That's it. My market is different than yours Mick. I am in the ballpark on pricing(as told by many customers) and know what other contractors are getting per hour for truck and sander. The last guy that had this account did it for $105 for 0-3" plus $120 for sanding and went up from there but is nowhere to be found. Why isn't he around anymore *because he figured out he was losing his shirt*.

P.S. Mick, It takes me 4 sec. longer to edge 10' of bed than you to plow with a bed edger. The right tool for the right job


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## Niteman9 (Jan 6, 2007)

Guys, I believe he stated the price included sanding as well as plowing.


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## Niteman9 (Jan 6, 2007)

Guys, I believe he stated the price included sanding as well as plowing.


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## Flake Chaser (Dec 17, 2006)

Thank you niteman9. Seems your the only one paying attention. There is only $125 between me and last guy. That's how much extra you pay for a great reliable service with insurance.


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## Jbowe (Mar 22, 2006)

*Power Joke*

Just checked out your web site. Very nicely done.


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## Highpoint (Oct 19, 2000)

I plow a couple of private subdivisions in central MO. One winter we may get 2" total and another, 30". Last year was around 24" payup I've not measured the roads but can say that on a 1-4" snow, It takes under an hour curb to curb and clean intersections. I charge $260.00. This area is Very hilly with lots of dangerous spots and blind corners. This is a fair price for the area. This really is not that much when you figure in what drives cost and how many can be done in an hour. I have easily made over 4 bills an hour during some events. What really boosts the profit margins is salting and sanding! For that same group of streets, I get $500 for spreading sand 1 time. During events with continual ice and snow, that figures up to be a minimum of 2 pushes and 2 sand applications per day. Sometimes more! Again, based on the area, this is an acceptable price. I know I would not get these numbers in a more snowy region. You gotta figure the costs incurred just to get set up to plow snow. Here, that equipment sets around for 99% of its life. You gotta recoup somehow.


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## Dougman (Oct 14, 2006)

Flake Chaser;435663 said:


> Thank you niteman9. Seems your the only one paying attention. There is only $125 between me and last guy. That's how much extra you pay for a great reliable service with insurance.


I know exactly where you are coming from. Here in SE Mass, we didn't have any snow last year and I almost went bust. I am primarily a driveways guy and it's a real struggle to survive with so little snow. I swallowed hard and kept my prices the same as last year despite the fuel cost increase. So far, I am getting calls and winning every driveway I want. Others I don't want I am passing off to an associate. I had to adjust my prices downward last year to sign up any business at all, but this year I probably could have raised them. Reports of folks retiring and getting out of the business are rampant.

Like you, I am now getting calls for commercial and for one 3-house private road. The commercial guy was a real ball-buster so no big loss there... but I'd love to do this private road. It is only 325 feet long and 20 feet wide right off a busy main road... straight and fairly near my house... but I have no idea at all how to price it. Pricing it like a driveway doesn't seem to make sense since it has to be kept cleared continuously... but pricing it at commercial rates is just as wacky. The homeowners won't buy it. And somehow, they want me to bill the three separate families for the single road... even though the road mostly serves just the house farthest back. To complicate matters, one wants his driveway done, one does his driveway by himself, and no one has a clue about what the last guy wants. They can't remember him ever plowing or shoveling at all. What a silly little mess!

For commercial, I quoted purely based on "lost opportunity" costs... namely, the value of the residentials I would have to give up to take his lots. It was a bust... but so far I can't see a more sensible way.

Dougman


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Flakechaser, yes, I was paying attn and my replies were based on what you asked.

Dougman, sometimes you're better off passing on an "opportunity". Just too many things to go wrong there. One big piece of advice - base the price on all the driveways you'll get and have only one person who is responsible to pay you or the road. Any communication to or from you goes though that person. No way would I agree to "divide" the road among the residents. 

Let's say you divide the cost of the road ($300) among three homeowners so it's $100 each. Now let's say the first one on the road doesn't pay you. What are you going to do - not plow his 1/3 and drive over it unplowed to get to the other 2/3? Can't do that cause they can't get out even after you plow theirs.


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## Dougman (Oct 14, 2006)

Mick;446675 said:


> Dougman, sometimes you're better off passing on an "opportunity". Just too many things to go wrong there. One big piece of advice - base the price on all the driveways you'll get and have only one person who is responsible to pay you or the road. Any communication to or from you goes though that person. No way would I agree to "divide" the road among the residents.
> 
> Let's say you divide the cost of the road ($300) among three homeowners so it's $100 each. Now let's say the first one on the road doesn't pay you. What are you going to do - not plow his 1/3 and drive over it unplowed to get to the other 2/3? Can't do that cause they can't get out even after you plow theirs.


Bingo Mick! Exactly what I told them. They need to form a homeowner's association... but the guy way in the back (who has the biggest stake in all this by far) is reluctant to take on the responsibility. I also wonder about the liability issues on this one. Much cleaner to have a one client/one provider situation.

Still, it would be a sweet little piece of work. If only there was a way! 

May I ask the folks here that do private roads: Do you do them continuously to keep them open and always passable like the public roads and commercial lots? Or do you still treat them like driveways and do them on a 4" (+/-) push basis??? 

Dougman


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## Jbowe (Mar 22, 2006)

*Samne problem simple fix*

Had that same situation happen. half mile road, 4 homes. Had to bid the whole thing. What I did was set up a meet with all the home owners at the same time. We arrived at a seasonal price and they paid in advance. I saw what could have happened. If the first three houses decided to stiff you and the last one paid you would have had to plow the whole thing because the last in the row paid to meet your contractional obligations. Get them all together at the same time, give them your price then collect right then. No more problems and no freebees


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## Dougman (Oct 14, 2006)

Jbowe;446790 said:


> Had that same situation happen. half mile road, 4 homes. Had to bid the whole thing. What I did was set up a meet with all the home owners at the same time. We arrived at a seasonal price and they paid in advance. I saw what could have happened. If the first three houses decided to stiff you and the last one paid you would have had to plow the whole thing because the last in the row paid to meet your contractional obligations. Get them all together at the same time, give them your price then collect right then. No more problems and no freebees


Yep! Exactly right! I offered a prepaid arrangement to avoid the (very likely) problem that you described. No matter how you sliced it, there was very little motivation for the first two houses to pay their share and I didn't like that possibility at all. They rejected the prepaid option and I assume they are looking for someone else as we speak. Too bad... but let someone else take care of it. In the end, I like the simple arrangements best! 

Dougman


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## Jbowe (Mar 22, 2006)

*Reject*

They rejected the arrangment becuase they intend on stiffing the poor guy that plows them. The plow man will probably only get paid from one of the three. I am sure this group has already stiffed others the same way. Thats why they are looking again.


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## Flake Chaser (Dec 17, 2006)

*Update*

They went with a friend of someone on street who was cheaper. Of course.


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## Dougman (Oct 14, 2006)

Flake Chaser;447003 said:


> They went with a friend of someone on street who was cheaper. Of course.


This is why I like regular, simple residential driveways. I know area prices. I know I'm competitive. I even encourage people to get competitive quotes. And then I win the job.

But as soon as I meet some opportunity that is either irregular shaped, small commercial or complicated billing/liability-wise (like that private road), the job goes to someone else. I confess that I cannot understand commercial prices and why they are all over the map in my area. And I'd sure like to understand the drill and know how to bid private roads that aren't controlled by one entity and need to be kept open and passable at all times. Is prepayment in full the only solution? Prepayment seems to be an inner city only thing around here. 

Dougman


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I treat private roads as long driveways - with a 3" trigger. Except in one case where the guy wanted ANYTHING plowed and sanded so his wife could get in and out at any time of day or night with her 2wd van. I once plowed (and sanded) half an inch of snow. They were thrilled.


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## Dougman (Oct 14, 2006)

Mick;447219 said:


> I treat private roads as long driveways - with a 3" trigger. Except in one case where the guy wanted ANYTHING plowed and sanded so his wife could get in and out at any time of day or night with her 2wd van. I once plowed (and sanded) half an inch of snow. They were thrilled.


Mick - How much (if at all) does increased liability enter into your pricing equation for a shared private road? I know you are in Maine where snow is normal, life is less complicated... and everyone owns a 4x4 pickup or SUV anyway, but do you ever consider the potential consequential damages of a person not being able to get out in an emergency or maybe slipping off your road going too fast and then trying to blame you? 

It's this dang *billing and liability* thing that I can't get a handle on in regard to pricing and contracting for private roads. 

Dougman


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Dougman;447293 said:


> Mick - How much (if at all) does increased liability enter into your pricing equation for a shared private road? I know you are in Maine where snow is normal, life is less complicated... and everyone owns a 4x4 pickup or SUV anyway, but do you ever consider the potential consequential damages of a person not being able to get out in an emergency or maybe slipping off your road going too fast and then trying to blame you?
> 
> It's this dang *billing and liability* thing that I can't get a handle on in regard to pricing and contracting for private roads.
> 
> Dougman


Not at all. Just the same as a driveway. That's why I carry insurance and make sure it's the right type for the account I'm considering. Check with your agent to make sure what you have will cover a private road or shared road or whatever it's called there.


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## Dougman (Oct 14, 2006)

Mick;447719 said:


> Not at all. Just the same as a driveway. That's why I carry insurance and make sure it's the right type for the account I'm considering. Check with your agent to make sure what you have will cover a private road or shared road or whatever it's called there.


I'm guessing there's a 90% chance my insurance would skyrocket. 

Dougman


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