# What's the going rate for an employee plow truck driver



## gmcplowtruck (Jun 13, 2007)

Looking at possibly taking on another route for the sub contracting company I work for it would pay me $40 hr plus buy the salt what would be the rate I should pay a driver


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

Depending where your located.

Locally in Chicago your going to be looking at 15-25/hr.


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## Metro Lawn (Nov 20, 2003)

$25 an hour here


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## blk90s13 (Sep 1, 2005)

$20/hr here


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

15.00. Depends on area


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

$20hr - $25hr here


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## Cmbrsum (Oct 2, 2008)

You get paid $40 an hour to provide a truck, plow, salter, driver, gas, and insurance? Yet they provide the salt? Is this per hour snow or shine, parked or plowing? or is this only when it is running? I won't run my trucks for less then $65 and hour, and that is after they are done with their routes. And I pay $25 an hour to my drivers. That is in Utah with a lot cheaper of an economy then many other places. Oh ya, I also buy breakfast for everyone when they get up and have their routes taken care of before morning open.


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## Eyesell (Nov 7, 2003)

$ 25.00 is way to low here in Michigan. Last year, we payed a guy who has his own truck, paid for his own gas $ 65.00/hr. He was a mediocre plower at that, but he was reliable and in all actuality got better as the year progressed. If he returns this year we'll pay at least the $ 65.00 hr.


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## Cmbrsum (Oct 2, 2008)

I thought that what I said was clear but $25 an hour is what I pay a driver who drives my truck. and $65.00 is a minimum for a truck and driver


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## gmcplowtruck (Jun 13, 2007)

That's my truck gas maintenance everything he would just be driving 
I get 40 hour from th time I drop the plow till I finish
I think some of the prices you guys are telling me are a bit high for my area my cousin plows for another landscaper and gets 14 hr with 11 years experience
Also the guy I'm thinking about hiring has absolutely no experience


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## ajman21 (Oct 30, 2009)

it all depends on the local market u got to figure wages out urself based upon what u can do


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Eyesell;1118400 said:


> $ 25.00 is way to low here in Michigan. Last year, we payed a guy who has his own truck, paid for his own gas $ 65.00/hr. He was a mediocre plower at that, but he was reliable and in all actuality got better as the year progressed. If he returns this year we'll pay at least the $ 65.00 hr.


we are taking about paying employees not sub contractors.


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## ZachXSmith (Nov 29, 2009)

I start all my guys at 11-12 a hour to drive, shovel, whatever. They rotate who drive's and who shovels. I pay my guys year round so maybe that matters, they also get unemployment all winter. They have to claim what they make from me when they call marvin. I also provide a 401k with up to 25 dollar a week match after a year and a cell phone.
I have 1 guy that makes 18 a hour but he runs a crew in the summer. You guys that pay 25 a hour are crazy. More power to yea.


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## Cmbrsum (Oct 2, 2008)

The reason I pay $25 an hour is because I need good reliability. I don't have full or part time employees. I have on call employees. They work other jobs that don't work with the weather, get layed off for the winter, or something to that effect. They can't go on vacation during the snow season. They may miss thanksgiving or Christmas with their family. They must not drink too much during possible time of work. They may or may not make any money from me depending on weather it snows. I use them for the main storm. then I go out myself to do the after storm maintenance. For them to agree to these terms I pay well.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Cmbrsum;1119384 said:


> The reason I pay $25 an hour is because I need good reliability. I don't have full or part time employees. I have on call employees. They work other jobs that don't work with the weather, get layed off for the winter, or something to that effect. They can't go on vacation during the snow season. They may miss thanksgiving or Christmas with their family. They must not drink too much during possible time of work. They may or may not make any money from me depending on weather it snows. I use them for the main storm. then I go out myself to do the after storm maintenance. For them to agree to these terms I pay well.


This is a good example of employee pay per regions...... My employees are in the same boat as yours and drivers get $12 (I have no problems filling any driver routes and they stay on for the season). They're more then happy to work like above and they are on the books with insurance and comp.

For the OP, your costs will differ from mine but at my $12 rate with all the other costs associated with running a truck, It costs ME $42 per hour to have that truck working.... Your costs will be different but double check your costs, at $40 you MAY LOSS MONEY!
HIH


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

Great , another let's screw over the subs and get rich off their hard work thread.

Add up your operating costs, insurance, gas, plow, deprecation on truck and plow + your time. You can't make a dime in your own truck for less then $65 an hour, even that's way to low !



nekos;1109857 said:


> $1500 a year commercial auto insurance
> $500 a year general liability
> $1200 on gas for the year ( $80 to fill up X 15 storms)
> 
> ...


Go work at McD's you will make more money and not have to get up at 3 AM. $40 for your own truck :angry:


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## ZachXSmith (Nov 29, 2009)

nekos;1119560 said:


> Great , another let's screw over the subs and get rich off their hard work thread.
> 
> Add up your operating costs, insurance, gas, plow, deprecation on truck and plow + your time. You can't make a dime in your own truck for less then $65 an hour, even that's way to low !
> 
> Go work at McD's you will make more money and not have to get up at 3 AM. $40 for your own truck :angry:


You sound very angry... I would have to say subs are paid around 55 a hour around here.
65 is the top end of the scale, The very top In my opinion.
No one can operate a buisness off a single truck subbing for 55 a hour, in order to make money subbing you need 2 or 3 trucks running everytime it snows and your own accounts as well. Thats how you split up your insurance costs. I also use all of my trucks in the summer as well for either personal use or buisness. I have seen alot of guys with a plow truck and a dream go bankrupt before/after a single winter because of this. I have very low overhead so I can make good money at 55-65 a hour with any of my trucks after all of my accounts are serviced.

Its time to weed out all the Dream Plowers and let the pro's handle it.


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## ZachXSmith (Nov 29, 2009)

Oh and by the way just because you joined SIMA doesnt mean your a pro, It means you paid money for a jacket and joined a club.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

ZachXSmith;1119580 said:


> You sound very angry... I would have to say subs are paid around 55 a hour around here.
> 65 is the top end of the scale, The very top In my opinion.
> No one can operate a buisness off a single truck subbing for 55 a hour, in order to make money subbing you need 2 or 3 trucks running everytime it snows and your own accounts as well. Thats how you split up your insurance costs. I also use all of my trucks in the summer as well for either personal use or buisness. I have seen alot of guys with a plow truck and a dream go bankrupt before/after a single winter because of this. I have very low overhead so I can make good money at 55-65 a hour with any of my trucks after all of my accounts are serviced.
> 
> Its time to weed out all the Dream Plowers and let the pro's handle it.


I am angry, it's scrubs lowballing the hell out of each other that is screwing up this entire industry. The pro's pay people like me almost double your ((top end of the scale)). Furthermore, What you guys decided to charge doesn't change how much it costs me for gas or insurance. It doesn't change the fact that it costs me $40k for a truck and $6k for a plow.

(edit)
To all the subs with their own equipment, buy a damn calculator and spend 5 minutes adding up how much it costs you to go out and plow each night.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Try this out to figure your costs........

http://lawnchat.com/?page_id=341


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## ZachXSmith (Nov 29, 2009)

nekos;1119591 said:


> I am angry, it's scrubs lowballing the hell out of each other that is screwing up this entire industry. The pro's pay people like me almost double your ((top end of the scale)). Furthermore, What you guys decided to charge doesn't change how much it costs me for gas or insurance. It doesn't change the fact that it costs me $40k for a truck and $6k for a plow.
> 
> (edit)
> To all the subs with their own equipment, buy a damn calculator and spend 5 minutes adding up how much it costs you to go out and plow each night.


Maybe you shouldnt spend 40k on a truck or 6k on a plow, your overhead will go down.
I buy 10-15k vehicles and my new plows cost me $3500.00 a piece for brand new snow doggs ex90's. Look for some deals, I picked up a 07 2500hd classic with 55,000 miles for 9k out the door this year. I think your problem is you wanna drive a 40k truck around to show off to all your friends, and then wanna complain you dont get paid enough to afford it.
Im sick of people thinking everyone owes them 120+ a hour to operate there own plow truck. If you can't make money in this industry you should find a new one.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

I start all my drivers that have no or little experiance at $15 per hour. I tell them if they work out, after a few storms I will give them a raise to about $17 per hour. I pay this way, because I can't tell you how many times I have had problems with drivers the first few storms and they need to be replaced.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

ZachXSmith;1119628 said:


> Maybe you shouldnt spend 40k on a truck or 6k on a plow, your overhead will go down.
> I buy 10-15k vehicles and my new plows cost me $3500.00 a piece for brand new snow doggs ex90's. Look for some deals, I picked up a 07 2500hd classic with 55,000 miles for 9k out the door this year. I think your problem is you wanna drive a 40k truck around to show off to all your friends, and then wanna complain you dont get paid enough to afford it.
> Im sick of people thinking everyone owes them 120+ a hour to operate there own plow truck. If you can't make money in this industry you should find a new one.


I agree with this for the most part. Expecially the $120+ per hour. I could never get anywhere near that (and I don't sub for anyone)

You will never see me buying a new truck for landscaping/snow removal, but you won't see me buying old ones either. I buy all 3-4 year old trucks with less then 30,000 miles. Then put brand new boss V plows on them ($7,000). I keep them for 7-10 years then get rid of them and do it again. I try to avoid the old truck problems while waiting for 40% of the value to depreciate before buying them. If the plow is in decent condition I take it off, and put it on a different truck. The nice thing is, that we have all boss V's. so many of them can go on more then one truck. So when my truck hits about 13-14 years old, and I'm ready to get rid of it, I put the crappiest plow I have that will fit on it when I sell it.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

nekos;1119560 said:


> Add up your operating costs, insurance, gas, plow, deprecation on truck and plow + your time. You can't make a dime in your own truck for less then $65 an hour, even that's way to low !


We bid our snow removal jobs at $69 per hour for one man in a truck. I would not get any work if I was much higher then that.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

ZachXSmith;1119628 said:


> Maybe you shouldnt spend 40k on a truck or 6k on a plow, your overhead will go down.
> I buy 10-15k vehicles and my new plows cost me $3500.00 a piece for brand new snow doggs ex90's. Look for some deals, I picked up a 07 2500hd classic with 55,000 miles for 9k out the door this year. I think your problem is you wanna drive a 40k truck around to show off to all your friends, and then wanna complain you dont get paid enough to afford it.
> Im sick of people thinking everyone owes them 120+ a hour to operate there own plow truck. If you can't make money in this industry you should find a new one.


i posted how many hours subs will have to work just to pay off gas and insurance. I didn't even include my truck into the equation. These are things that you as an owner pass off on subs because you know damn well how expensive it is ! I also get paid extremely well for my equipment and time because my boss knows what good subs in reliable equipment can do.

As for an 07 with 55,000 miles on it, i will buy 4 right now at $9k a piece. In the real world you can't even sniff a 05 with 100,000 miles on it for less then $15k. Here ya go check it out yourself. find me some.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searc...um_records=25&keywordsfyc=&sort_type=priceASC


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

lawnlandscape;1119646 said:


> We bid our snow removal jobs at $69 per hour for one man in a truck. I would not get any work if I was much higher then that.


That's fine, you can bid your work at $1 per man hour for all i care. That doesn't change how much it costs me as a sub to run a plow truck.

I'm not trying to be an ass, nor are my comments really to any of the owners here. They are to the sub contractors that are working their ass off for a few dollars all winter.


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## ZachXSmith (Nov 29, 2009)

nekos;1119650 said:


> That's fine, you can bid your work at $1 per man hour for all i care. That doesn't change how much it costs me as a sub to run a plow truck.
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass, nor are my comments really to any of the owners here. They are to the sub contractors that are working their ass off for a few dollars all winter.


My advise to you is find a way to lower your costs/overhead. Be more competative and you will find out that you can more money with your same work load.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

ZachXSmith;1119628 said:


> Look for some deals, I picked up a 07 2500hd classic with 55,000 miles for 9k out the door this year.
> 
> *I call BS on that deal, there had to be a catch- no engine maybe? *
> 
> Im sick of people thinking everyone owes them 120+ a hour to operate there own plow truck. If you can't make money in this industry you should find a new one.


The sad part is that we used to get $125 per truck per hour. Now with the way national companies have brainwashed people into thinking $50-65 an hour is high/good pay for an owner operator with their own insurance etc. things will continue to spiral downward.

Zachxsmith- how big is your operation/business?


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

ZachXSmith;1119667 said:


> My advise to you is find a way to lower your costs/overhead. Be more competative and you will find out that you can more money with your same work load.


My cost / over head is just fine. Remember, I'm the sub driving a $40k plow truck. lol 
You're missing the point even though what i have said was not directed to you or any one else that owns a plow / snow removal company. It's directed to the sub contractors. They need to understand how much money they are actually making when every thing is all said and done and the season is over. They need to understand how much money it costs just to step out the door to go plow snow. They need to understand how many hours / nights they are working for free before they make 1 penny.

Maybe i can flip this around and turn it into a question. You don't have to answer it here. I'm not really interested it. If tomorrow all your sub contractors told you that they quit and no new sub contractors would be willing to work for how ever much it is you pay them. Could you afford to buy a new truck for every 5 - 10 accounts you have ? could you afford to insure them all ? could you afford to put gas in them all ? Would you make a profit when it's all said and done ?

I'm sorry but i will tell it like it is, Any of the sub contractors that read this, don't sell yourself short. You're time and equipment is worth a lot of money. Don't give it away.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

tjlands;1119674 said:


> The sad part is that we used to get $125 per truck per hour. Now with the way national companies have brainwashed people into thinking $50-65 an hour is high/good pay for an owner operator with their own insurance etc. things will continue to spiral downward.
> 
> Zachxsmith- how big is your operation/business?


This is part of the reason I'm *****ing so much lately about what subs are getting paid. Yes the big nationals are driving down prices but if sub contractors like myself did a little math and refused to work for these ridiculous prices the nationals would have no one to plow their lots for them. Instead most snow removal companies just go on lowballing each other and decreasing wages for their subs. They have no problems with a guy spending 12 hours in his own truck for a couple hundred dollars, as long as the owner is still sitting pretty.


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## gmcplowtruck (Jun 13, 2007)

Ok well I get paid $45 for my truck with bulk salter and they pay for all the salt and calcium I use it would be $40 hr for a tailgate salter I myself have been doing it for three years with them and it works out real well for me I make a good bit of money I don't want to start an argument I already figured to pay someone with insurance and all I wouldn't make anything so I will continue to do my route and help out the other subs that break down every year so Thanks to everyone


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

gmcplowtruck;1119844 said:


> Ok well I get paid $45 for my truck with bulk salter and they pay for all the salt and calcium I use it would be $40 hr for a tailgate salter I myself have been doing it for three years with them and it works out real well for me I make a good bit of money I don't want to start an argument I already figured to pay someone with insurance and all I wouldn't make anything so I will continue to do my route and help out the other subs that break down every year so Thanks to everyone


Would you let me rent your truck, plow and spreader for $20 , $30 an hour ? Want to go out and plow snow for me for $10 an hour ? That's whats happening You're giving away your time and money.

How much do you pay for your insurance ? 
How much do you pay for gas each night ? 
How much did your truck, spreader and plow cost you ? 
How much does it cost when a wheel bearing wear out ?

Add it up and see how many hours you have to work just to pay those little things off. You might be surprised that your child is making more then you delivering pizza.


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## gmcplowtruck (Jun 13, 2007)

I paid 13000 for my truck it's paid off I know how much a wheel bearing cost put one in my old truck I understand what your saying I wish I could get more but I'll take it I actually do real well like I said they pay for my salt and I have my own accounts as well and I can stretch my time to oh my truck is diesel and averages 12 mpg plowing and idling


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

gmcplowtruck;1119876 said:


> I paid 13000 for my truck it's paid off I know how much a wheel bearing cost put one in my old truck I understand what your saying I wish I could get more but I'll take it I actually do real well like I said they pay for my salt and I have my own accounts as well and I can stretch my time to oh my truck is diesel and averages 12 mpg plowing and idling


I'm not sure how much snow Pittsburgh gets, 50 - 60 inches of snow. Just a guess. You probably get 100 - 120 hours total for the year. You most likely spend about a $1000 on gas. Another $1500 on insurance. At $40 an hour you work half the year just to pay off those costs. Then add in Uncle Sams cut. Maybe it's just me but i don't find that doing very well.

I'm not trying to insult you or anything but me personally, i wouldn't go out there for maybe a couple thousand a year. not worth it. I would do drive ways at $20 a pop. i would make a hell of a lot more money.


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## snowman69 (Nov 1, 2010)

i get 45 an hour i get what your saying but in the same breath todays market there is so much competition and i would rather make 45 an hour instead of sitting at home making zero just my 2 cents


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

snowman69;1119942 said:


> i get 45 an hour i get what your saying but in the same breath todays market there is so much competition and i would rather make 45 an hour instead of sitting at home making zero just my 2 cents


I understand it's better then nothing. At the same time there are other things that pay a hell of a lot better. If you think about it, 3 driveways an hour at $20 each is easy to do. Hell 5 drive ways an hour isn't hard to do for that matter. You're going to make a hell of a lot more money then plowing for some one else at $30 - $40 an hour.

Maybe i think about it differently then most. I don't plow snow for fun, even though it's a fun job. I do it to make money. If I'm not making much money then i will find some thing else to do.


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## gmcplowtruck (Jun 13, 2007)

Thank you snowman 69 I would rather make a few thousand then absolutely nothing and I also do lawn and landscaping by the time winter rolls around my insurance is paid completely and I have side work but also I go out if there's a slight dusting ice storm anything at least to salt so it's not just plowing I have a set route that is mine example kfc eat n park pizza hut a bank wendys ETC and they buy all the salt so I do pretty well I've been in business for ten years I wouldn't still be in business if I wasn't doing well for myself


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

gmcplowtruck;1120005 said:


> Thank you snowman 69 I would rather make a few thousand then absolutely nothing and I also do lawn and landscaping by the time winter rolls around my insurance is paid completely and I have side work but also I go out if there's a slight dusting ice storm anything at least to salt so it's not just plowing I have a set route that is mine example kfc eat n park pizza hut a bank wendys ETC and they buy all the salt so I do pretty well I've been in business for ten years I wouldn't still be in business if I wasn't doing well for myself


This is why you get taken advantage of. You are willing to work for next to nothing. Go do a couple drive ways, go deliver pizza, hell work at MC'D's you will make more then a couple thousand.

Think about it this way, are you and your skills only worth minimum wage ? That's about what you are making. 
Hell you make less then the guys driving company trucks for god sakes !


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## djtidbit (Mar 16, 2010)

i have to agree with nekos, bidding work for $69 an hour is crazy. No wonder you have to plow using illegals plowing for $10 an hour in the middle of the night. Would you work for ten dollars an hour, could you pay your mortgage, feed your family. The nationals have made snowplowing barely worth the sacrificies, better off with steady hours at mcdonalds.


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## NJlandscaper908 (Oct 29, 2010)

i make 40/hr to run someone elses equipment and get 90/hr for my truck and driver. The salt is supplied by the guy i work for.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

djtidbit;1120044 said:


> i have to agree with nekos, bidding work for $69 an hour is crazy. No wonder you have to plow using illegals plowing for $10 an hour in the middle of the night. Would you work for ten dollars an hour, could you pay your mortgage, feed your family. The nationals have made snowplowing barely worth the sacrificies, better off with steady hours at mcdonalds.


1) Thats the going rate around here
2) I have a fleet of trucks and have been around for quite a while, so I'm clearly making money and know what I'm doing 
3) I don't employ illegals (mostly because they don't have drivers licences :laughing


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

lawnlandscape;1120248 said:


> 1) Thats the going rate around here
> 2) I have a fleet of trucks and have been around for quite a while, so I'm clearly making money and know what I'm doing
> 3) I don't employ illegals (mostly because they don't have drivers licences :laughing


What the going rate is or what you charge makes no difference in how much it costs a sub contractor to run a truck. If i worked for you, would it cost me less money to buy a plow or truck because you only charge *** amount ? Maybe i would get discounts on gas and insurance too ? How about repairs to my truck, I'm sure a mechanic would love to take a pay cut just because you don't charge enough.

To the Sub Contractors... 
This is the same argument owners use over and over. They look at it from their stand point only... Well I'm telling the subs to do the same. Don't be fooled. Don't work for penny's just because it's the (( Going Rate)).


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## SnowGuy (Jan 7, 2006)

FYI, I have been in the snow removal / ice control business for 36 years and I have been very successful in it. I pay my drivers $15-$20 per hour in my equipment. I pay subs $50-$60 per hour depending on their experience and the equipment they own. I have no problem getting drivers or subs at these rates. I feel if a sub does not want to work for the rates I offer, he does not have to. Most subs do not want anything to do with all the paperwork, insurance, contracts, legal matters, etc. We as the business owners deal with all these matters and therefore need to make money to do so !

Bottom line, it is up to the individual whether he is a driver, sub or an owner.


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## deereequipment (Jul 12, 2007)

$40.00/hr to plow????
Really?
See you next year.
(we probably won't)


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

nekos;1120268 said:


> What the going rate is or what you charge makes no difference in how much it costs a sub contractor to run a truck. If i worked for you, would it cost me less money to buy a plow or truck because you only charge *** amount ? Maybe i would get discounts on gas and insurance too ? How about repairs to my truck, I'm sure a mechanic would love to take a pay cut just because you don't charge enough.
> 
> To the Sub Contractors...
> This is the same argument owners use over and over. They look at it from their stand point only... Well I'm telling the subs to do the same. Don't be fooled. Don't work for penny's just because it's the (( Going Rate)).


My expenses are less then yours. As a previous poster posted, I do not pay $40,000 for a damn truck. Most trucks I buy are 3-4 years old with under 30,000 miles on them and are purchased for $20,000 - $25,000 if they have a plow already on them or $15,000 - $20,000 if they come without a plow. My 'sub' contractors never have to worry about making to little, because I don't use them. They are nothing but problems. Clearly I am able to be a lot more competitive as well if I don't use them.

I have a mechanic that works for me as a landscaper/snow removal guy, so when I need something fixed it costs me $17.40 per hour.

I do charge enough and make very good money over the winter season, while barely working at all.

This business is about managing your costs to stay competitive while still looking professional and being reliable while doing it. It takes A LOT of discipline to make good money and stay competitive in the snow removal industry today.

If you can not make very good money at $60-$70 per truck hour, then you clearly lack that discipline I am talking about.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

SnowGuy;1120273 said:


> FYI, I have been in the snow removal / ice control business for 36 years and I have been very successful in it. I pay my drivers $15-$20 per hour in my equipment. I pay subs $50-$60 per hour depending on their experience and the equipment they own. I have no problem getting drivers or subs at these rates. I feel if a sub does not want to work for the rates I offer, he does not have to. Most subs do not want anything to do with all the paperwork, insurance, contracts, legal matters, etc. We as the business owners deal with all these matters and therefore need to make money to do so !
> 
> Bottom line, it is up to the individual whether he is a driver, sub or an owner.


Very well said. :salute:


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## ZachXSmith (Nov 29, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1120375 said:


> Very well said. :salute:


I agree 100%. I also very rarly use subs, they are usually unreliable.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

SnowGuy;1120273 said:


> FYI, I have been in the snow removal / ice control business for 36 years and I have been very successful in it. I pay my drivers $15-$20 per hour in my equipment. I pay subs $50-$60 per hour depending on their experience and the equipment they own. I have no problem getting drivers or subs at these rates. I feel if a sub does not want to work for the rates I offer, he does not have to. Most subs do not want anything to do with all the paperwork, insurance, contracts, legal matters, etc. We as the business owners deal with all these matters and therefore need to make money to do so !
> 
> Bottom line, it is up to the individual whether he is a driver, sub or an owner.


You are also paying a fair wage, kinda. $50 an hour, your subs work half the year just to pay off their gas and insurance. $60 is low as well but is on the high end for your area. You are at least paying enough that a sub can cover operating costs and still make a profit. I'm talking about the guys paying $30 for a sub with their own equipment. You sound like some one who isn't a true lowballer scrub passing his lowball tactics onto his employees. You sound more like a business owner trying to make it.

That being said my message is still the same. Regardless of what you as an OWNER charge to plow a lot, It does not change how much it costs a Sub to own and run a plow truck.



lawnlandscape;1120368 said:


> My expenses are less then yours. As a previous poster posted, I do not pay $40,000 for a damn truck. Most trucks I buy are 3-4 years old with under 30,000 miles on them and are purchased for $20,000 - $25,000 if they have a plow already on them or $15,000 - $20,000 if they come without a plow. My 'sub' contractors never have to worry about making to little, because I don't use them. They are nothing but problems. Clearly I am able to be a lot more competitive as well if I don't use them.
> 
> I have a mechanic that works for me as a landscaper/snow removal guy, so when I need something fixed it costs me $17.40 per hour.
> 
> ...


Again you are talking about your business ! I could care less what you make or how you manage your business or money.

I am talking about how much it cost to run a plow truck and that sub contractors need to figure this out and stop working for these ridiculously low wages. If you want to go all in house and use all your equipment, fine. Go for it. Have fun sparky. If you use a sub and offer him $30 - $40 in his own truck, I will call you what you are, a scrub exploiting his employees just to make a $.


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## Cmbrsum (Oct 2, 2008)

Wow did I start one hell of an argument. I agree with Nekos in alot of ways. I don't spend quite as much for my trucks. But they are nice and comfortable. When I spend that much time in a truck, it needs to be comfortable and look nice. It represents who I am as a business owner and and how expect property to be treated. I need a minimum of $55 an hour befor I would let one of my trucks go to work. But that is only after I am done make $200 an hour with my own contracts. I am sick of the downward spiral that is happening with the addition of a bunch of out of work guys with trucks trying to make a quick buck buy using substandard equipment, not insured, licensed and only in it for the short hall. Bad for everyone.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

nekos;1120459 said:


> Again you are talking about your business ! I could care less what you make or how you manage your business or money.
> 
> I am talking about how much it cost to run a plow truck and that sub contractors need to figure this out and stop working for these ridiculously low wages. If you want to go all in house and use all your equipment, fine. Go for it. Have fun sparky. If you use a sub and offer him $30 - $40 in his own truck, I will call you what you are, a scrub exploiting his employees just to make a $.


Everything I say about my business is explaining why sub contractors like you cant make money at $65 per hour.

Yesterday afternoon I got 3 phone calls phone calls in 15 min of property owners that said they were going to go with someone else because someone else was much better priced. I bid all these 3 jobs at $69 per hour. And you say I'm not bidding enough... How much would I be willing to pay a sub contractor if I needed one?? $45 per hour MAX.... why? Because all my jobs are set rate job, a sub contractor is always going to take longer then one of my own guys or add a few minutes to time actual time.

If your making more then $55 per hour subcontracting, consider yourself lucky.

If a subcontractor is accepting $30-$40 in his own truck why is the business employing him a scrub? Sounds like the business is taking a smart move and they subcontractor is a fool.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Cmbrsum;1120900 said:


> Wow did I start one hell of an argument. I agree with Nekos in alot of ways. I don't spend quite as much for my trucks. But they are nice and comfortable. When I spend that much time in a truck, it needs to be comfortable and look nice. It represents who I am as a business owner and and how expect property to be treated. I need a minimum of $55 an hour befor I would let one of my trucks go to work. But that is only after I am done make $200 an hour with my own contracts. I am sick of the downward spiral that is happening with the addition of a bunch of out of work guys with trucks trying to make a quick buck buy using substandard equipment, not insured, licensed and only in it for the short hall. Bad for everyone.


You don't make $200 per hour with your own contracts. I am getting so sick of subcontractors that think they can just sit on their ass, not have to bid anything, not have to build a business reputation at all, then go to a company who has done all the work to pick up the jobs, and ask for more or just as much as the company bid them for.

I am sorry your feel that your work truck needs to be 'nice and comfortable'. If you were my subcontractor, I would not give a **** how you feel in your truck, I would care about the job your doing and if your doing it fast enough. If you are proud of being a 'business owner' maybe you should go around and get your own work. If you were not bidding at $200 per hour, you would not need to be subcontracting.


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## ZachXSmith (Nov 29, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1121268 said:


> You don't make $200 per hour with your own contracts. I am getting so sick of subcontractors that think they can just sit on their ass, not have to bid anything, not have to build a business reputation at all, then go to a company who has done all the work to pick up the jobs, and ask for more or just as much as the company bid them for.
> 
> I am sorry your feel that your work truck needs to be 'nice and comfortable'. If you were my subcontractor, I would not give a **** how you feel in your truck, I would care about the job your doing and if your doing it fast enough. If you are proud of being a 'business owner' maybe you should go around and get your own work. If you were not bidding at $200 per hour, you would not need to be subcontracting.


Agree 100% If you are a sub *****ing about wages then get off your butt and start selling your own work, I could care less what your new truck payment is. Same old story you get with every employee... they think your striking gold off their hard work. Any idiot can buy a truck and plow... your nothing special.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

lawnlandscape;1121262 said:


> Everything I say about my business is explaining why sub contractors like you cant make money at $65 per hour.
> 
> Yesterday afternoon I got 3 phone calls phone calls in 15 min of property owners that said they were going to go with someone else because someone else was much better priced. I bid all these 3 jobs at $69 per hour. And you say I'm not bidding enough... How much would I be willing to pay a sub contractor if I needed one?? $45 per hour MAX.... why? Because all my jobs are set rate job, a sub contractor is always going to take longer then one of my own guys or add a few minutes to time actual time.
> 
> ...


Your last statement is dead on correct and says more then i have said in all these posts i have made. (( If a subcontractor is accepting $30-$40 in his own truck why is the business employing him a scrub? Sounds like the business is taking a smart move and they subcontractor is a fool. ))

You are still missing the point, just don't want to listen or judging by the statement i quoted, want to keep your employees ignorant... I don't care what you bid your lots at. I don't care how much profit you make off each lot. I don't even care how much money it costs YOU to run a plow truck, its cheaper and easier for you then us btw. All i have been saying this entire time is that a sub contractor can not make money at $40 an hour. You work half the damn year just to pay of your gas an insurance at those rates.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

ZachXSmith;1121405 said:


> Agree 100% If you are a sub *****ing about wages then get off your butt and start selling your own work, I could care less what your new truck payment is. Same old story you get with every employee... they think your striking gold off their hard work. Any idiot can buy a truck and plow... your nothing special.


If you're sick of subs *****ing about wages, try paying them a fair wage or go buy your own damn trucks, insurance , gas... See how long you last doing that and bidding $69 an hour. lol

What i find funny is that even you can make more money doing driveways at $20 a piece then bidding commercial lot's at that price for god sakes.


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## ZachXSmith (Nov 29, 2009)

nekos;1121448 said:


> If you're sick of subs *****ing about wages, try paying them a fair wage or go buy your own damn trucks, insurance , gas... See how long you last doing that and bidding $69 an hour. lol
> 
> What i find funny is that even you can make more money doing driveways at $20 a piece then bidding commercial lot's at that price for god sakes.


I own 5 trucks all 2005 and newer, Come down and take a look. Been in buisness since 1985, and not going anywhere so I must be doing something right.

EDIT: The subs that have worked for me in the past have been very happy with the 50 a hour and payment that day. Good luck on those driveways and the million calls you will get in the spring about there little grass problems.


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## ZachXSmith (Nov 29, 2009)

also no one mentioned that we as buisness owners often wait 60 days for our payments, while subs expect to get paid cash after there done plowing.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

ZachXSmith;1121463 said:


> I own 5 trucks all 2005 and newer, Come down and take a look. Been in buisness since 1985, and not going anywhere so I must be doing something right.
> 
> EDIT: The subs that have worked for me in the past have been very happy with the 50 a hour. Good luck on those driveways and the million calls you will get in the spring about there little grass problems.


I shouldn't be going off on you guys for paying subs X amount. My intentions were not to do that. Things got a little heated and i do want to apologize to every one for that.

I will still stand behind what i said because it's directed at subcontractors and not owners of any snow removal company. You have to do what you have to do to stay in business and make a profit. I understand that. If the market will only allow for $70 an hour then your can't charge much more. You can't pay your subs $80+ an hour either. I get it, I'm not stupid. That doesn't change the fact that it costs a lot of money to run a plow truck and subs need to be paid very well for it. They are picking up all the costs you as a business owner would have to pay for while getting paid even less for the job they do.

There is a break even point for us. We have to work a certain amount of time each night before we make a profit. For me, it's roughly $200 a night before i make any money. This does not even include my truck payment or plow or repairs or anything else ! I make that in a little more then 2 hours then the rest is profit. Working at $40 an hour it would take me about 5 hours to make that money. I might get an extra 3 or 4 hours after that... $ 120 - $160 a night ? it's not even worth it. I would make more in one of our company trucks at $25 an hour.

If people have low balled the prices down to ridiculous rates in your area, I'm sorry. That doesn't mean subs should take the hit and bust their ass and equipment for it. Be smart, if we as sub contractors stop working for penny's and the snow removal companies have to raise prices because they can't find people to work for them, every one wins.


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## Indianfallsfire (Jan 5, 2010)

I was just hired at $15 hr as a newbie to this company using all there equipment and take home truck etc in Buffalo NY area doing strictly residential


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

nekos;1121448 said:


> If you're sick of subs *****ing about wages, try paying them a fair wage or go buy your own damn trucks, insurance , gas... See how long you last doing that and bidding $69 an hour. lol
> 
> What i find funny is that even you can make more money doing driveways at $20 a piece then bidding commercial lot's at that price for god sakes.


I find it amusing how you mock a company bidding jobs at $69 per truck hour and say they will not last long. Especially when your referring to company's that have been around for 2 generations.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

ZachXSmith;1121468 said:


> also no one mentioned that we as buisness owners often wait 60 days for our payments, while subs expect to get paid cash after there done plowing.


 You get 'em Zach  I like this guy


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## djtidbit (Mar 16, 2010)

you don't shop $200 an hour, You sell $ 60 per push, plus $40 for salt. For an approximitly half hour job, sounds right on the money to me. He didnt say he was profiting $200 an hour, just as your $69 is not all profit. Whatever his profit is I'm sure its more than yours. You would seriously do a half hour lot for $35, you must have some minimum price. Hard to believe the industry has come to this.


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## Charles (Dec 21, 1999)

Took out some post. Lets keep this civil


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Charles;1123780 said:


> Took out some post. Lets keep this civil


:salute: Yes Sir


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## lamar smith (Oct 21, 2009)

I could'nt agree more all thse guys plowing for free has the game ****** up !


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## turboplow3 (Nov 23, 2010)

If you pay more your employees will work harder, better, and get more done. 

I only work by pay per job. Thats with all company equipment, they pay gas, and salt/sand. I get $20 for a lot that takes about 30min. and thats the minimum I work for. but b/c i take home a company truck and equipment I will work for less as it is easier.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

turboplow3;1124342 said:


> If you pay more your employees will work harder, better, and get more done.
> 
> I only work by pay per job. Thats with all company equipment, they pay gas, and salt/sand. I get $20 for a lot that takes about 30min. and thats the minimum I work for. but b/c i take home a company truck and equipment I will work for less as it is easier.


There are good companies that understand costs and don't try to exploit their employee's and subs. There are scrubs that can actually sleep at night knowing their employees are working basically for free. Be glad you found a good place to work for.

I will say it for the 1000th time, do the math guys. Add up your insurance, gas, truck, plow, time and taxes. If your willing to work for $5 an hour, or less. Well then have at it but just know most of the people you drive by with plows on their trucks are making 10X what you are.


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## stacks04 (Jan 22, 2008)

Nekos, if subs as a whole collectively start asking or demanding more money then subs as a whole will find themselves out of work. The business owners will buy another truck and hire a guy for 15 bucks an hour. Or when the subs demand more money and force the business owners to charge more to pay these subs, the subs will realize that the 40 drives they plowed at 40 bucks and hour is nearly the same as the 25 drives at 60 bucks an hour because the business owner has lost 15 contracts due to people not being able to afford the service anymore.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

nekos;1124383 said:


> There are good companies that understand costs and don't try to exploit their employee's and subs. There are scrubs that can actually sleep at night knowing their employees are working basically for free. Be glad you found a good place to work for.
> 
> I will say it for the 1000th time, do the math guys. Add up your insurance, gas, truck, plow, time and taxes. If your willing to work for $5 an hour, or less. Well then have at it but just know most of the people you drive by with plows on their trucks are making 10X what you are.


Nekos,
I'm not disagreeing with any of your posts. But your rate plowing is what we get for loaders in our neck of the woods. If you can continue to get that rate then more power to you. But I think your in the minority here in terms of your rate (which isn't a bad thing) In this economy, its tough. I've managed to keep my subs pay the same for years but they understand how tough it is out there and are willing to neg their wage if need be for the following year(s) as they know I treat them very fairly. I'll try my darnest not too affect their wages but when supply and demand effects my margins, the effects will roll down stream. Its just pure economics.

Good luck to everyone!


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Nekos, one thing you don't seem to understand is the concept of market dictating wages, contrary to your claim.

In my area, standard contract is $150-250 per month with 3 inch trigger and with 7 day service guaranteed. This means the customer pays $150 to $250 a month and the contractor plows every day where there is at least 3 inches of snowfall and that covers every single day of the month. It's common to have it snow 2 weeks straight 24 hours a day. This is residential. 

Average household income is $50,000. We average 250 inches per winter. There are a lot of snow plows on trucks. There is a lot of competition that keeps prices down. If you have 1-2 years of experience plowing in a pickup, you'd get $15/hr plus gas in your own truck. If your father knows the guy that owns the company, you might get $18-20/hr plus gas.

Down in Green Bay area where there is less supply to a greater demand, prices are higher. That's what it boils down to. I can put an ad here for $12/hr plus gas and I will have at least a dozen people with plow trucks responding to get the position. If you won't take it, move over because the guy behind you will do it.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

8 hours to pay the *month's* insurance, not the life of the policy. If you plow snow for pay and work for someone else, you get a rider for plowing for $500-600/6mo avg. This is a piggyback policy that offers additional protection for any damage caused while you are plowing.

You also have to realize this isn't their primary source of income. They have a 40hr a week job and plow in the winter as a second job. Weather forecast is snow from yesterday until next Wednesday, every day all day. Next two weeks they will make more money plowing than they will all *month* at their day job.


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## Cmbrsum (Oct 2, 2008)

I happen to agree with Nekos again. $15 an hour + fuel to a sub with his own truck and plow? If there is anyone in northern Utah that wants to work for me for that deal, I'll take 3 of you now!! I pay $25 an hour for my drivers to drive me trucks and plows.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

Cmbrsum;1124531 said:


> I happen to agree with Nekos again. $15 an hour + fuel to a sub with his own truck and plow? If there is anyone in northern Utah that wants to work for me for that deal, I'll take 3 of you now!! I pay $25 an hour for my drivers to drive me trucks and plows.


Exactly, i will pay this guys subs $100 to drive out to Chicago then give them $20 an hour + pay for their gas. I would make a killing off them !!! lol

It's so hard for me not to really go off on some of the people posting in this thread but i will hold my tongue. For any of the subs that read this thread, all i can say is wake up ! You need to be paid very well for your time and equipment. Add up your operating costs and make sure you are making a nice profit above those costs !


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know what part of Michigan he's in but you can buy a house in the detroit area for about $20k. From what I've seen and spoke with a few people about, if your lucky enough to find a $12/hr job then consider yourself one of the few. 

In Maine your born with a truck and a yellow plow. On your first birthday your given some reflective letters and numbers that you stick on the side of your truck saying "SnowPlowing - 207-555-5555". I had people offering to do my drive for $15 when I shopped the competition, I would charge $45-$50.


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## stacks04 (Jan 22, 2008)

nekos;1124512 said:


> Back to your problems as a business owner. What you charge to plow a lot makes no difference in how much my insurance costs. It doesn't make any difference in how much my gas costs. It doesn't make a difference in how my my plow costs... Do i need to go on ? Yes, please do. I dont give to flips what your bills are. This is what it takes to either keep this customer on my docket, or to add this customer to it. If you can't do the job for me, thats fine there will be others. If there isn't others then, and only then I re-evaluate the pay scale to which I offer subs.
> 
> As far as the weakened economy. I don't remember my truck costing less because of the economy. Hell they go up $2k per year. Don't remember gas prices going down either. My insurance rates actually went up this year ! Sorry, it costs money to run a plow truck and just because you as a business owner can't charge enough to pay fair wages doesn't mean i as a sub should bust my ass, truck and waste my time just so you can make money. It's a 2 way street and both parties have to make a profit.
> 
> Maybe this is why this industry is in such bad shape. To many plow guys pretending to be business men and not enough business men doing what they do.


I will reiterate what others have said to you, no one but yourself is to blame for your current situation and the bills you need to pay. It is not my responsibility to pay you more money because you are irresponsible with your money. It is also blatantly obvious given the amount of subs people hire and have responding to ads that people are making a profit. If they weren't they would not be doing it. Especially in this economy. I currently own the truck in my sig, it is paid off. The only over head I have is supplys like salt/sand, insurance and maintenance on my vehicle. It costs a minimal amount to run the truck and plow a storm. Having good work ethic, having the responsibility to maintain my vehicles means less wear and tear, less breakdown time and a solid platform on which to rely on each and every winter. This allows me to not have to spend 30-50k every couple years on a new truck and plow making it so I have to get 75 bucks an hour to sit on my ass and utilize a joystick just to pay my payments on time. Its simple economics along with supply and demand.

I do not own a contracting business but I can assure you that if I had 10 guys willing to accept 40 bucks and hr, and you not starting your truck for under 60 you wont get the job. You say your not supposed to care about the amount a business owner charges and thats fine, but he wont be paying you break even amounts or more than he charges. So dont expect to have much work. Plowing snow for a living is a gamble, some times you make out like a bandit, sometimes you eat your ass. If you dont want the risk, dont do it. Its simple.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

stacks04;1124627 said:


> I will reiterate what others have said to you, no one but yourself is to blame for your current situation and the bills you need to pay. It is not my responsibility to pay you more money because you are irresponsible with your money. It is also blatantly obvious given the amount of subs people hire and have responding to ads that people are making a profit. If they weren't they would not be doing it. Especially in this economy. I currently own the truck in my sig, it is paid off. The only over head I have is supplys like salt/sand, insurance and maintenance on my vehicle. It costs a minimal amount to run the truck and plow a storm. Having good work ethic, having the responsibility to maintain my vehicles means less wear and tear, less breakdown time and a solid platform on which to rely on each and every winter. This allows me to not have to spend 30-50k every couple years on a new truck and plow making it so I have to get 75 bucks an hour to sit on my ass and utilize a joystick just to pay my payments on time. Its simple economics along with supply and demand.
> 
> I do not own a contracting business but I can assure you that if I had 10 guys willing to accept 40 bucks and hr, and you not starting your truck for under 60 you wont get the job. You say your not supposed to care about the amount a business owner charges and thats fine, but he wont be paying you break even amounts or more than he charges. So dont expect to have much work. Plowing snow for a living is a gamble, some times you make out like a bandit, sometimes you eat your ass. If you dont want the risk, dont do it. Its simple.


Just replaced a Transmission on an 04 2500 hd and a couple of other "minor" problems
$3600+. (those allisons do go and they are even more expensive) All my trucks are well maintained, doesn't matter Sh!t happens. Also had to do some plow work on same truck, another $350.
Who cares if it paid off I still had to fix it. Is it cheaper up there? I believe thats about 100 hrs working at $40, thats rough. Ct insurance inst cheap, gas is more expensive. 
At an avg snowfall at around 4ft, tough to make those numbers.

Plowing Snow for a living is only a gamble if you dont know what your doing or if you have only one truck.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

this thread was cleaned up once and it was made known to keep the thread civil but some feel the need to continue otherwise so this is now closed


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