# Weapons & Plowing??



## bwamx (Nov 12, 2001)

Well in the last Week 1-5-03 to 1-8-03 we had 2 plowing related
shootings! One from a plower to a motorist and the other from a 
motorist to the plower.

1st incident Homeowner vs passing car .
Man chased down and shot in arm. link:
http://www.record-journal.com/archives/index.inn?loc=detail&doc=/2003/January/06-2410-01Local.txt

2nd One Not listed on line but, Plower asks a person to move 
car so he can plow a private lot better, motorist pulls gun , shoots
his own window and plow truck. No one hurt, Subject flees the area.

Plower leaves truck, comes back a little later , motorist had returned and smashed all glass and lights on the truck.

Police later arrested the shooter in a local bar.

This is not normal for our town!!! 
I feel people are getting fed up with the snow already, and its 
only Jan 12th!

Some People will not give you a inch when plowing, others will.
Be carefull !:realmad:


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

Since im not old enough to carry a concealed weapon, nor would i think i want to, at least not around here, so far seems safe... But i usually always have my big maglight or my spreader board (used if mat'/ starts to clump or what-have-you) but ive never run into a problem, but this makes me a little worried, so ill be prepared to 'shed a little light on the problem' with my flashlight, lol


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## PINEISLAND1 (Dec 21, 1999)

Glock on board

always


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## mike9497 (Oct 30, 2002)

well i plow the projects in new haven CT across from the train station.i have my gun with me at all times plus if i go there late at night i have the new haven police stay with me while im plowing out these lots.i've been cornered a few times ''Blocked In" by some people messing around.i was also almost plow truck jacked by 5 black men in there 20s.the police were not with me and i saw as they were coming up to the truck that 2 of the men had guns in there coat pockets.i pulled my gun out just in time and told them straight out."I'm at least going to get one round out and its going to hit one of you guys in the head."glad i had my cell phone on speed dial to the new haven police cause they where there within seconds.now the company i sub for the owner was jumped and they stole his truck,but the police had it back within an hour.they also smashed his head with his shovel.but its worth the money i guess.god knowswhen its your time so im ready to meet my maker.


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## BRIMOW525 (Jan 23, 2001)

I would NEVER even think about carrying any kind of weapon while I was plowing! I am absolutly dumb founded that this happened. Unfortunetly I think that plowers in your neck of the woods area all too common and people don't give a damn about u or your life. Around here someone with a plow is almost a god and is respected. Then again we don't get as much snow as u guys. Sorry to here.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

No wonder you guys get more for plowing than I do. Between the insurance costs, getting shot, chased and truck jacked, it's a wonder you plow at all.

You can have it, I'll take my moose-dodging any day. (So far, it's just been enjoy watching them, no collisions.)


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## mike9497 (Oct 30, 2002)

mick

can i come up there? i would rather do some moose watching than sit here and get shot at......lol lol


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## Big Nate's Plowing (Nov 26, 2000)

I have a 3/4" x 36" steel rod that is used for torquing down semi tie downs with me most of the time to bang on the spreader with when it jams or to use as a whoopass stick, within the next year I plan on getting a nice .410 shotgun for in the bronco, we have had a few people come up to the truck and start something. one guy managed to open the passenger door on Jeremy before he could get it locked, we managed to drive off quick enough on that one. .

~Nate~


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## Got Grass? (Feb 18, 2001)

I feel sorry for you guys!!!


Five of the last six years Amherst, NY has been designated as the safest city in America. 1997, 1998, 2000 2001 and 2002. 
Only reason we didnt get it in '99 was becasue of James Kopp killing DR. Spepian the abortion DR. Wich I'm sure you all heard about.

No need to carry anything arround here.


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

I'll bet the "Snow GodFather" doesn't have that problem ,they would wake up in bed with a horse head!


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## snowplowjay (Aug 26, 2002)

it seems folks here in Meriden are "GUN HAPPY" lately. After we get two plow related shootings last week this week we get a sunday wake up call. A man and a manager at the local cinemas had somewhat of a shootout. 



Jay


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## mike9497 (Oct 30, 2002)

Big Nate's

well i can't run they block off the only way in and out in these lots.
just gotta take care of myself.most of these people are young black kids age 19 to 25.did you see the movie "TRAINING DAY"
if so remember the part at the end when hes walking in the projects down the center of the street? well the place i plow is just like those.only its real life and not a movie.....lol lol


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## phillyplowking1 (Dec 19, 2001)

Glock 40 here...


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## Got Grass? (Feb 18, 2001)

Block the entrance? Just slam the gas, bend down & ram the bastards with the plow. It makes great armor, well mabey not the polly plows & a V will leave a big ass dent.

I always joke with people about raming them with the plow or putting it in the scoop position & blocking them in against a wall untill the cops get there. Or just burry them in a snow pile never to be found agian.


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## fordman (Oct 31, 2001)

I carry a collapsable batton. Never had to use it but I've pulled it out a few times.


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## phillyplowking1 (Dec 19, 2001)

Got grass>I already did that before.


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## bwamx (Nov 12, 2001)

snoplowjay , I was at the newly opened cinema last night , and
got out of there around 9:30 .
What is going on? 

mike9497 
One of my buddys is a NewHaven Fire Fighter / Landscaper/ Plower and he has passed on few stories about the projects 
down there. 

I personally don't have a weapon just a big Mag light for 
use as a flash light.
Bob


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## mike9497 (Oct 30, 2002)

GOT GRASS?

you wanna buy me a new plow and truck after i ram them lol.
if i was using my LA 8000 i would ram them no problem

bwamx

whos your friend? i know someone that works there also.


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## KLMlawn (Apr 18, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Got Grass? _
> *Block the entrance? Just slam the gas, bend down & ram the bastards with the plow. It makes great armor, well mabey not the polly plows & a V will leave a big ass dent.
> 
> I always joke with people about raming them with the plow or putting it in the scoop position & blocking them in against a wall untill the cops get there. Or just burry them in a snow pile never to be found agian.
> *


I second this ... !!!
Why would you ever feel that being blocked in was a problem ???
If you plow ...
1) ... you have a battering ram attached to the front of your truck ... even a poly plow has a steel support structure, so if it is a choice of damage the plow vs. getting shot ... I will buy another plow thank you!
2) ... seeing as you have a vehicle that has enough traction, and in most cases is a 4x4, to plow snow ... then what would prevent you from just riding up over the curb, grass, whatever ... to gain an escape route?
3) ... even if you didn't have a plow, or a 4x4, if you have a truck and someone is blocking you in, RAM them ... they won't expect that and you might damage your vehicle, but you WILL damage theirs ... possibly to the point that they will not be able to drive it.

Unless you are trapped in an alley, which if this is the case - see #2 & #3, you shouldn't have any worries.


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Nate,

In NY (and I think it may be a Federal law) you can not have a loaded long gun in a motor vehicle, you may want to check on it before you stow that 410.

As for me, I'll just say I'm very capable of taking care of myself.


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## Got Grass? (Feb 18, 2001)

You would put your truck & plow before your life? I think not.
Even if thay can still drive thier little caddy no way will thay catch up to a 4wd truck in the snow. Ok so thay may have a excursion, Ram them with the plow & I bet thier radaitor is toast.


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## mike9497 (Oct 30, 2002)

in the 5 years i have been plowing there i never worried.i would rather shoot someone than smash up my truck and not be able to do the job.its 30,000 a year for me.yes its an ally type deal buildings or thick walls on both sides of the lots 8 lots total.never worried.cops are not even a block away and if they don't get there in time i take care of things 6'6 420 lbs


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## mike9497 (Oct 30, 2002)

also in connecticut you can carry a gun in your truck if you go into areas that are problem areas.you have to have a cdl or a truck that has commercial plates.must give refs and state what type of work you do and if you have had any problems in these areas that have been reported.took 2 years to get the permit,but if you do shoot someone it doesn't get you off the hook of court and what not.


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## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

"Ok so thay may have a excursion"

Hey that would be an even match for me. I don't think I have anything to worry about here in "Mayberry" with the pot smoking "hippies".

Whole reason I LEFT Connecticut was the road rage, nasty people, gun totin' drivers. 

I have my own guns (Glock 22) and I have two dogs (150lbs "bark" and 180lbs "bite") so I do believe in protecting yourself. But I DON'T want to be in a place where I have to worry about getting shot while working. I am being paid well, just not hazard duty pay.

I would RAM! the bastards in a heart beat.


Howard


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## mike9497 (Oct 30, 2002)

i would rather shoot them.at least they won't take my truck away because it was involed in a crime.don't wanna wash someones guts of the front of the plow.my stomach wouldn't be able to handle that lol


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## HandyHaver (Oct 14, 2000)

15 in the mag & 1 up the pipe. I plow on the main line but do alot of work and have some rentals in the city. Not the nice parts either.

Mark


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## jbutch83 (Sep 30, 2002)

Being in Law Enforcement, I always have a gun and radio with me. Have not had any problems yet, did come upon a domestic in one lot we were plowing. Also, in Indiana, you can carry a long gun loaded in your vehicle, but you need a permit to carry any handgun, loaded or not.


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## phillyplowking1 (Dec 19, 2001)

Handyhaver your lucky some of my accounts are in north philly.


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## Hawkz (Nov 6, 2002)

Here in my parts I don't have to worry about people too much. Very friendly, courteous and on a occasion you have the a##holes that try to start stuff. 

I have all kinds of tools, knives, 22 oz framing hammers and such on hand, not to worried though- then if it does get ugly I would use my bar days brawling. I think it would be different though if I lived in a worse area, gun carrying to me seems a bit much, unless I am going hunting. You could make a life changing mistake w/ a gun on hand. If there was something started when driving or plowing, I would just use whatever is on hand, and my body as a fightin machine. 6'0 220. Bring on the snow, Hawkz


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## fastjohnny (Nov 14, 2002)

I would rather have a life changing event than a life ending event. 

Any on the law side care to weigh in on a defense?

Which would provide a better defendable case: a vehicular homicide (via snowplow) or a fatal shooting?

The way I view it lethal force is only an acceptable solution when escape is not an option. 

I say if your legal to carry, do it. Those on the other end sure aren't legal, and don't care about it either.


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## L.I.Mike (Dec 28, 2002)

I guess I am lucky here. I have thought about carrying something but never saw the need(knock wood). I have a big mag light and a pipe for the plow and thats about it.
Where I am after a snow the only people out are the plowers.


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## YAMAHAKODIAK (Jan 6, 2003)

I carry with me at all times a Glock 23 (.40S&W) and a 6 Cell Maglight. I figure that ought todo the job!


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## SDlawndawg (Oct 9, 2002)

6 cell maglite that snaps on next to my seat. Never had any problems. Not much crime around here. I've never locked the doors on any vehicle I've owned except if I'm at a busy shopping center or I'm leaving it overnight in a strange area. It's quite a shock when I travel to the big cities like Chicaga or Detroit. It's a whole different ballgame there.


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## Got Grass? (Feb 18, 2001)

After all the responces here so far, It sould be a lesson to everyone else. DO NOT come between a man and his plow, cuz it aint gunna be pretty.

Talk about all the tools we carry the cops could concider weapons, Crobars, pipes, hammers, wrenches, etc...


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## Hawkz (Nov 6, 2002)

Good point FastJohnny,
I think too if there is someone not caring for your life then you should not care for their life either to a certain extent. Depending upon the circumstances!!!


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Yamahakodiak, Welcome to Plowsite!

Hawkz, number one rule to being in a gunfight: Have a gun! I wouldn't try to fend off an attacker armed with a gun with anything less, we'll be reading about you the following day.

Nate, it appears you should check your local laws on that 410. Thanks for the correction , jbutch83


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## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Arc Burn _
> *I'll bet the "SnowGodFather" doesn't have that problem ,they would wake up in bed with a horse head! *


That's funny LMAO.

I have carried many weapons good thing never had to use them.

I have Guido, Vito, Jimbo, Marco, Steveo, and Mr Policeo for that.


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## OffRoadPlow (Dec 30, 2002)

If you carry it, just be aware of the responcibility you are taking on. Not trying to preach, but as a former shooting instructor for the USMC I can say that just because you have a gun, does not make you bullet proof by any means.  Just be careful, thats all I ask.. I have more training with "weapons" than I will ever hope to need as a civilian, and would only resort to using it "As a last resort when all lesser means have failed". Guns don't solve problems, people solve problems.

With that adult talk out of the way, I will say that I have never lost a knife fight when I had a gun!

Be safe....


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## Hawkz (Nov 6, 2002)

Pelican, I REALIZE you need a gun in a "gunfight". 

But my point is, that if knowing that I am in an area for crime, guns, drug dealing then of course I would choose to carry a gun. But if I am NOT, I don't even want that gun near me- too many mistakes happen if careless. 

I hope that you don't think that I am saying guns are bad- because I am not. I FEEL that you are trying to defend gun carrying, I did not try to offend you or gun carriers. I myself have several rifles, shotguns. But I feel some people are irresponsible for them!! Carrying them in cars is a tough choice, but if some feel more secure, than all power to you. But my first choice would be to get the hell out of the area if I knew that there were guns being brandished. 

OFFRoadPlow, seems to have the same thinking as I do- Did not try to offend anyone about carrying guns!!!! Personal choice. Bring on the snow, Hawkz


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## fastjohnny (Nov 14, 2002)

*Off road...*

Well said.


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## HandyHaver (Oct 14, 2000)

Phillyplowking1,

I feel for you brother. All my properties are in west & s/west.
I worked the north end years ago (not plowing). Damn, they shoot you over a parking spot. If they shovel it and put their kitchen chair, trash can ect..in the spot you best not move it or they will start bustin caps on yout butt.........

"City of brotherly love"

Where the hell did they come up with that one.

When it snows, I stay clear of the city, let alone drive around with a blade on the front end of my truck. NO THANK YOU!!

Mark


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Hawkz, we're on the same page. I made my statement tongue in cheek. That's the trouble with print, it's emotionless. I'll also agree that not all people are of the temperment to carry guns. I just wanted to make the point at how unsafe it would be to counterattack a gun toting criminal with a hammer.



> defend gun carrying


Here's where we disagree, and I think it might have been just your choice of words. "The right to bear arms" is guarenteed in the U.S. Constitution and needs no defense.

When I first started carrying, my wife would question the need on certain trips. My response is if I had the ability to determine when and where I might be confronted, I'd just stay home for that particular time. I'm in a rural area where the police are often 20 minutes or more away. I've never drawn on a human, and hope never to have to. My first responsibility, however, is to the safety of my family. I guess I've shown my hand...

OffRoadPlow, thank you for your service to our country!! :waving:
(The waver is the closest thing I can find to a salute.)


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## Hawkz (Nov 6, 2002)

Pelican, 
I know there is the right to bear arms, I did not try to even go near that. I think that taking care of ones family is the utmost important thing today, I agree there!! Did not mean to step on your toes in this discussion- lets sqaush this and move on!! 

It is a very touchy issue and I did not mean to cause any problems. It is hard sometimes to type the way you feel- lets say it is against me now. For the record........-I AM smart enough to know that I should not fight a man w/ a gun using a framing hammer. Bring on the snow, Hawkz


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

No offense taken here. I view this as a gentlemanly discussion. I don't take offense with someone who disagrees (not saying you do), and enjoy a civil debate.


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## Canadian-Ron (Jan 13, 2003)

Kinda surprised by all the guns.


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## PINEISLAND1 (Dec 21, 1999)

Pelican said it all.......

"Here's where we disagree, and I think it might have been just your choice of words. "The right to bear arms" is guarenteed in the U.S. Constitution and needs no defense.

When I first started carrying, my wife would question the need on certain trips. My response is if I had the ability to determine when and where I might be confronted, I'd just stay home for that particular time. I'm in a rural area where the police are often 20 minutes or more away. I've never drawn on a human, and hope never to have to. My first responsibility, however, is to the safety of my family. I guess I've shown my hand..."



Lots of people seem surprised at how many law abiding, responsible citizens out there are carrying ALL the time. Its many more than you will ever realize, but if it ever does "hit the fan" for you in your lifetime, hopefully one of them will be there .


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## Big Nate's Plowing (Nov 26, 2000)

ok, I talked to my buddy, he is a avid skeet shooter and he said that ohio law says that you can cary unloaded long guns in a vehicle if the amunition is seperate of the passenger compartment, so I guess thats a no go with a suv.... so I will use the 200# of 2"x4" x 1/2" thick tube mount as a battering ram and IMO if someone is blocking you in a parking lot and u have the plow on 4 low in 1st gear and foot to the floor, ram them,insurance will cover it unless u are a scab that dosent have any.

I'd ram them even with my plow off because it wont hurt my truck \/\/\/

~Nate~

upper mount, lower mount and big block


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## cutntrim (Dec 28, 1999)

Geez, I'm glad I'm not down in Philly or Conn. like you guys. My biggest concern up here is just staying awake long enough to finish my route! 

You gotta do what you gotta do, and if you're in a neighbourhood loaded with bad guys carrying guns, then I don't blame you guys for carrying too. Just seems hard to imagine worrying about getting shot while out plowing snow!


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2003)

This is why I hate snow and guns!

Copy everything between the URL's in brackets and paste it to browser address.

http://nl3.newsbank.com/nl-search/w...rpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no

That's ME!

Greg


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## Big Nate's Plowing (Nov 26, 2000)

bad link bro.


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2003)

Try this, just copy everything between the URL's in brackets.

http://nl3.newsbank.com/nl-search/w...rpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2003)

I guess it doesn't like an address that long 

Here is a text copy of it:

Man Wounded Trying to Help Driver Identified
Article 1 of 1 found 
Saundra Saperstein, Washington Post Staff Writer 
February 16, 1983; Page A27 
Section: First Section; General News 
Word Count: 357 

The man who was shot twice and critically wounded Monday in Wheaton when he approached the van of a motorist he thought was in trouble was identified yesterday by Montgomery County police sources as Gregory Dapron, 20, of Wheaton. Dapron, an electrical technician, did not know the driver and was just trying to help him get his van out of the snow, according to Dapron's roommate.When Dapron walked up to the van at Grand Pre and Bel Pre roads about 5:30 p.m., its driver allegedly shot 



I tried to get the rest of it, but it won't let me.

Greg


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

Something sounds fishy about the van.

Mistaken identity?


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2003)

Sno,

He was high on PCP. He fired at me 3 times and hit me twice in the belly with a 9mm. I was in the hospital for about 6 mos., nearly died 

Greg


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

I'm not going to say if I carry or not. I dont want to advertise either way.

But I sure dont blame anyone that has to work in the outdoors at night or early morning for carrying protection. 

I've seen a hell of alot after dark that most folks will never see and dont even know exists.

No matter where they are located. 

Anything can happen at any time and anywhere, you may only get one split second chance.


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

Now how'd i know that.

I figured.


Man, Dockboy that sucks.

You're one who KNOWS it's out there.

Bad part, those people usually only come out at night through early morning to feed and they dont mind traveling.


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## Big Nate's Plowing (Nov 26, 2000)

silly crackheads


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

LOL Nate~

Bet you see it everynight over there.

LOL

BTW

If your in a SUV, there are alternatives.

I believe as long as the gun and ammo are not both withing arms length... 

Or ammo stored in a locked box.

Your fine. 

You may want something a bit more ready though.


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## a palustris (Jul 28, 2002)

I have a strict policy about where I work. I will not take ANY job in ANY area where I feel that the locals would wish me and my crew harm. I have only broken this rule once, and on that occasion I was accompanied by my best friend who is a 300 lb Gorilla, it was at a rental unit he owns. If anything had happened that we could not deal with then and there... those people had better of killed BOTH of us, because if they left us alive, they would be found and disposed of :waving: 

A very wise business man told me one day when I was bidding on a job for him and I did not have the right equipment... "no ammount of money is worth risking your life for" ie, if you are endangering your welfare, or that of your employees don't take the job.


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## gslam88 (Feb 19, 2002)

Geez, 

Talk about good timing... If you guys saw XXX with the GTO... I just added all that to my plow truck, Also added a CWIS Phallix machine gun for extra weight in the rear and rear protection.... I also do not have to worry about being blocked in by anyone as with a 3,000 rounds a min protection in the back I cn just remove them.... 


I have the instructions for installation in case anyone wants them



Pete :waving: :waving:


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## Acorn (Dec 3, 2002)

I'm glad I live in the Maritimes, Canada. Something like this thread would have never crossed my mind. Nobody around here carries a gun whil plowing. We don't call it a drive by shooting here, we just call it a little ol' huntin' accident.


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## NoStockBikes!! (Oct 29, 2002)

Always better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. 

I'd love to be sitting on my hospital death bed when I'm 105 and say "Damn, I coulda saved $450." It sure beats the heck out of sitting on your knees begging for your and your family's lives in a rest stop parking lot thinking "If I only..."


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## CARDOCTOR (Nov 29, 2002)

i carry every day work ,mall ,taking the family out for dinner 
not that i ever want to use it but id rather but prepared than sorry .what happens when you pull out your louville slugger and the crack head pulls out a stolen hand gun and fills you with lead


PREPARE FOR THE WORST HOPE FOR THE BEST

ONLY IN AMERICA

CARDOCTOR



GO EAGLES


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## bwamx (Nov 12, 2001)

Wow DockBoy That sucks!  
Hope you recovered well from that.
It's something the people you can run across in your day to day lives and never know what will happen.
Things like this make people stay away and not try to help others.

I personally have not come across any close calls or Road Rage aimed at me in my travels but I will not try to agravate anyone either !

Bob


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## Guest (Jan 14, 2003)

Bob,

That happened 20 years ago and it has only been within the last 7 or 8 years that I haven't had some sort of complication from it. Thanks for asking! Oh, just another little tidbit! This happened about 500 ft. from where the last DC Sniper victim(the bus driver) was shot.

I HATE GUNS!!!! Don't own one and don't care too! They give me the willies just being near one. It's like the pain comes right back

I was finally able to access the rest of the articles. If you don't care to read them, Move to the next post NOW

Greg

*Man Shot After Offering Aid To Driver of Stopped Van

Rosa Michnya, Washington Post Staff Writer 
February 15, 1983; Page C6* 
A 20-year-old man who stopped to offer help to a motorist he thought was in difficulty was shot and critically wounded yesterday on a street in Wheaton, Montgomery County police reported. 
That incident was followed by a series of events that included the abduction of an elderly Colesville couple and ended with the apprehension of a suspect at Montgomery General Hospital in Olney, where the couple had driven, ignoring their abductor's orders that they drive him to North or South Carolina. The couple was not harmed. Police would not identify either the wounded man, who was reported in critical condition at Suburban Hospital, or the couple, saying that releasing their names might endanger them. 
Late last night police were questioning the suspect, who was taken into custody about 6 p.m. at the hospital. 
The series of events began about half an hour earlier, police said, when the 20-year-old man stopped his car on Bel Pre Road in Wheaton to aid a man driving a green and white van. The circumstances surrounding the shooting were unclear last night. 
Police said they were first called to a shopping mall in Silver Spring where it was reported that a pedestrian had been struck. They said they found the van and learned that its driver had been hit by a car nearby and then fled on foot. 
Police said the man, whom they described as middle-aged, was apparently unhurt by the accident and ran north on New Hampshire Avenue to Snider Lane in nearby Colesville, where he allegedly broke into the home of the elderly couple and ordered them to drive him in their car "to the Carolinas." 
The couple instead drove to Montgomery Hospital, where officials summoned police when the man became disorderly.

*Man Wounded Trying to Help Driver Identified

Saundra Saperstein, Washington Post Staff Writer 
February 16, 1983; Page A27 *
The man who was shot twice and critically wounded Monday in Wheaton when he approached the van of a motorist he thought was in trouble was identified yesterday by Montgomery County police sources as Gregory Dapron, 20, of Wheaton. Dapron, an electrical technician, did not know the driver and was just trying to help him get his van out of the snow, according to Dapron's roommate. 
When Dapron walked up to the van at Grand Pre and Bel Pre roads about 5:30 p.m., its driver allegedly shot him in the leg and the abdomen with a handgun, then fled in the van, according to police spokesman Cpl. Philip Caswell. A suspect, James Robert Shell, was arrested later Monday night and taken to Clifton T. Perkins Hospital Center for mental observation. A warrant charging him with assault with intent to murder was issued yesterday, police said. 
After the shooting, police said, the van was driven a few miles and abandoned at a service station near the Cloverly Shopping Center on New Hampshire Avenue. Police said they later found a gun in the vehicle. 
One witness told police that the van's driver then walked across the street and was hit by a passing car, although he was not seriously injured. 
The van's driver then forced his way into an elderly couple's home, police said, and ordered them to drive him to South Carolina. The couple apparently convinced him he needed medical attention and took him to Montgomery General Hospital, according to police. Police were called after psychiatrists at the hospital interviewed the man. Police refused to release the couple's name. 
Dapron was in critical but stable condition yesterday at Suburban Hospital, according to a hospital spokesman.


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## Bill c (Jan 30, 2000)

Glock 23 carried IWB extra clip in a pocket.


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## PINEISLAND1 (Dec 21, 1999)

G23 seems to be the "plowers choice".

Maybe we need to do an ad for Glock !


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

HEY ALL, I live here in ******* Hannibal NY...EVERBODY
carries some kind of weapon ! Ya know out here its
Huntin', Fishin' and ROCK N' ROLL !!!!!!!!
(NO WEAPONS ALLOWED IN THE BAR AND GUT YOUR
BUCK OUT IN THE BACK!....lol.......................GEO


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## Hmebuildr (Jan 16, 2002)

Always Carry no matter what better tried by 12 then carried by 6 have for over the past 20 years great living in a state that respects the rights of it citizens and issues permits feel for you guys that cant.


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

My winter carry is a Para-Ordinance P12/45


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## SCFALL (Nov 24, 2002)

*ccw*

Smith & Wesson mod 66 357 mag or CS40 40 cal my two best friends. I dont feel that I need them while plowing but do carry most of the time due to my other job. scott


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## shamrock1 (Jan 15, 2002)

I carry but I always carry due to my law enforcement status, 

Have several areas in Buffalo Metro that are high-crime areas which late @ night, many thugs thing plow drivers are operating in similar fashion to a Brinks Truck, Not SO........

I'm trained to use a weapon as an ultimate NYSPL Article 35 last possible self-defense measure....

The use of negotiations usually solves everything, Believe me, You DO NOT want to shoot someone.....

There is a former Plow Contractor/ Landscaper currently in (NYSDOCS ATTICA) right now that is serving 15-25 years for manslughter because he got into it with another young motorist after a mall mishap, Shot him twice, jury convicted him, still trying to appeal case.....Been in State prison since 1995 I believe......

Not my ideal day.


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## Alan (Mar 2, 2000)

I carry on occasion, and have a weapon handy in the car when traveling. Granted, that makes me a criminal in most of the states I travel through. Never had reason to need the weapon but it's comforting to know it is there.

Personal preference currently is GI colt 45 ACP, although a Ruger 357 DA revolver is an option. 

Luckily I live in a state which allows concealed carry with no permit required, and just happens to have a very low armed crime rate, possibly as a result of that policy.

As for "hating guns" it is no more logical to "hate" firearms than it would be to "hate" hammers or baseball bats. All can be misused as weapons in the hands of the unlawful. Far better to turn that emotion to those who commit crimes rather than the tools they use.

There are several criteria that must be met before the use of deadly force can be justified.

There must be a very real and iminent threat to self or persons in your proximity.

You must have NO avenue of escape. In some states that is construed that you do not have to leave your home to a threat, even if there is a way out. In other places, where the liberal mentality has taken hold, you could be requied to leave your home to an invader if there was a door behind you. In the context of this thread, where the threat would be outdoors and possibly in an open area, the "flight before fight" becomes a far more complicated issue. If you were blocked in a blind alley that might be considered inescapable. Being approached by one or more armed thugs in an open lot, while you were in your vehicle would probably not. 

Personally, I feel that if more of the unlawful ran into an armed victim, ready to defend himself we just might have a few less unlawfuls to contend with.

It is interesting to note that in jurisdictions where there are "must issue" requirements for the issuance of carry permits that has been a decrease in violent crime. It's not as much fun when there is the chance that your victim can fight back. That pretty much blows holes in the approach that (legally) armed citizens pose a threat to society.


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Alan, the more I learn about you, the more I think I'd like to sit and have a beer or two with ya! 

My Para-Ordinance is a copy of the Colt Officer's Model, I've also got the 14/45 Government version. It's my favorite type of pistol. Well proven and no gimmicks.

While I have no professional exposure (police or military), I've received tactical training by an instructor who trained under Massaad Ayoob. Part of this included a review of self-defense laws. I had a real life test of my tolerance to anger and rage a few years ago and passed without incident, I never even considered reaching for my weapon. 

As I stated, I live in a rural area, 2 police officers cover about 300 square miles. One of my friends is a Sheriff's Deputy out here and told me that in his training he learned that 80% of the households in my region contain firearms, something they needed to be aware of in the case of domestic disputes. He said the criminals are also aware of this, which is reflected in our low crime rates.

A few years ago we had a "posse" of kids move up here from a southern region breaking into homes and stealing valuables. The Sheriff caught up with them and warned them "They weren't in Kansas anymore", and relayed the stats to them and that they might break into the wrong house on one ocassion. They served their tome and haven't been heard from since.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2003)

Alan,

When I said I "Hate" guns, I was trying to convey the "uneasy" feeling that comes up inside me when I'm around them. Maybe you would look at "hammers or baseball bats" differently also if you were beaten senseless by one! I fully understand that it is the PERSON who commits the crime, pulls the trigger, or turns a hammer into a weapon! No matter how "Logical" that is, it still doesn't stop the feeling from coming up inside.

Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying I'm against the right of people to "bear arms" or carry a weapon for defense, ABSOLUTLY NOT!!! If you feel that's what you need to do to feel safe, than by all means "have at it"! Although, I don't particularly care for the people who use that right to be "macho", "gun waving", "look out I've got a gun" a$$holes. Most of them use that to cover up their inadequacies as a human being. Maybe they would act different if they had felt the lead! Or then again, maybe not!


In the situation that happened to me, the outcome would have been ABSOLUTLY NO different if I was carrying a gun. Maybe if I was wearing one on my hip. But honestly, who does that other than Police officers and CRIMINALS anyway. The only reason I am alive today is because when I saw the gun, I turned to run. Not because I defended myself in a gunfight! I was shot just as I was turning and that is what caused the bullets to hit and pass through me the way they did!! I actually caught one, hit me in the left hip, passed through my gut, and ended just under the skin on my right hip! The other hit my left hip and exited my inner left thigh.

People can say all they want about what they would and wouldn't do when looking down the barrel of gun. In reality, no one knows until it happens. I know I didn't!

Greg


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## Rob (May 15, 2001)

Dockboy,
Glad to hear you're OK. Man, that's scary...

The articles don't say, and I'm just wondering... what did they ever do to that SOB ?

Again, glad to hear that your doing well


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2003)

Thanks Rob 

The guy got 15 years for Attempted Murder 

A funny story though. I was sitting outside the court room with the Detective during this guy's trial. He was showing me the gun, pictures of the scene, the pool and the trail of blood in the snow where I crawled to a passing car. And this is what he said: "We ought to forget this trial. Put you the same distance away, with the same gun and number of bullets, and see who's a better shot!" 

Greg


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

Point blank, two 9MM rounds.......

I think you earned the right to hate anything you want Greg.


As far as me, If he had missed and hunted someone down through the woods.
It would never be me who would say, they cant have that right.
That would have to be the most helpless situation I can think of.


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## Guest (Jan 15, 2003)

Thanks Sno ,

I get asked all the time when people hear the story, if I ever stop to help people anymore. OF COURSE I DO!! If someone else didn't stop so I could crawl into their back seat, I would have died right there! I like to help people and I can't let something like this change that!!

It was the classic case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time!! 

Greg


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Dockboy, glad to here you're OK, and that it didn't turn you into an anti-gunner. It's great the dirtbag got 15 years, although I don't think he deserves to be amongst society.

I had a somewhat similar experience, although not as severe, and this is what prompted me to excercise my right to carry. I had had my carry permit for a number of years, but didn't carry on a regular basis, and wasn't doing so this night. 

I was travelling to work at 4:00 am on a desolate stretch of road, no houses or building for about 5 miles. I saw a man laying on the shoulder, and I often saw joggers out that early, I feared one had been hit by a car. I swung the car back around and pulled up next to him. As I was opening my door to help him, I spotted the pistol in his hand pointed at me, "Ambush!" raced through my head.

I threw the car in reverse and floored it, I figured my headlights would blind him and prevent him from taking aim, and backed up about 100 yards and held my lights on him. He still hadn't moved, and after about ten minutes another car came along. I got them to call the Sheriff (pre cell phone days) from the pay phone about 3 miles away. Another ten minutes and the first car showed up, followed by 3 more Sheriff's and 2 Troopers.

Turns out this guy was passed out drunk, had a 32 cal. pistol with serial numbers filed off and no carry permit. After about 45 minutes, the cops finally rousted him and when they did, he pointed the gun at the Lieutenant. I don't know why the guy wasn't shot on the spot, but they showed great restraint and got him to drop the gun.

I learned he was fined $300 and got 6 months probation for all of this. This is justice?

Greg, I'm surprised your experience hasn't changed your instinct to help, it did mine. I don't rush in to a situation like I used to, I hold back and look things over now and sometimes I'll call the cops for someone rather than stop. It's too bad where society has gone.


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## fastjohnny (Nov 14, 2002)

*Intelligent discourse*

This thread, I think is a fine example of different perspectives, all freely given and well received.

Dockboy, I have to commend you for your restraint shown in print, towards the perpetrator. I would have found this hard to do. And also for not jumping on the anti gun bandwagon.

I was at a social function with a pretty diverse group of people, when the gun control issue came up. One rather outspoken gun critic proclaimed there is no reason to own a gun. I immediately could think of a dozen reasons why you should, but elected, in the setting, to defer a response.

Alan, Pelican, and others, clearly identify sound logic in exercising this right. Way to go, guys.

And to those not so persuaded, I don't think the majority of those with ccw's or other carry provisions are gun waving, macho individuals. Those that are, definitely need a little guidance. Like here on Plowsite, it's always a few bad apples in every crowd.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Intelligent discourse*



> _Originally posted by fastjohnny _
> *This thread, I think is a fine example of different perspectives, all freely given and well received.
> 
> Dockboy, I have to commend you for your restraint shown in print, towards the perpetrator. I would have found this hard to do. And also for not jumping on the anti gun bandwagon.
> ...


Johnny,
I couldn't agree with you more! I find civil, intelligent and polarized conversations to be very stimulating! It sure beats "Mines bigger and better than yours". Although I am guilty of that from time to time

To be honest, I have no resentments or feel no "ill will" towards the gentleman that shot me. Life is difficult enough on a day-to-day basis. No need to complicate that with bad feelings from something that happened 20 years ago!! I believe whole heartily that people get what they deserve and that I'm not in charge of that!!

I would like to thank those who asked of my health and those who respect my opinion, as I do theirs. I also want to emphasize that my "gun waving" comment was not directed at anyone here or in particular. We all know some people who feel they need to make sure you know they have a gun so they can prove they are a man!

Greg


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## Mr_Roboto (Dec 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Big Nate's Plowing _
> *ok, I talked to my buddy, he is a avid skeet shooter and he said that ohio law says that you can cary unloaded long guns in a vehicle if the amunition is seperate of the passenger compartment, so I guess thats a no go with a suv.... so I will use the 200# of 2"x4" x 1/2" thick tube mount as a battering ram and IMO if someone is blocking you in a parking lot and u have the plow on 4 low in 1st gear and foot to the floor, ram them,insurance will cover it unless u are a scab that dosent have any.
> 
> I'd ram them even with my plow off because it wont hurt my truck \/\/\/
> ...


Ohio has the "prudent man clause" in their code. You still get arrested for having a gun, but your defense in court is that clause, stating (paraphrased) that you may carry a gun at any time that a prudent man would. They give us this crap since they won't issue gun permits. But it is something.


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

First I heard of that?

When did that pass Mr_Roboto?


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## Doctordo (Dec 13, 2001)

No I don't carry a weapon nor do I feel I need one. I am a very avid hunter. If I can't out smart a person with a gun I have no reason for being there. I have had to deal with many cituations like this in the past.


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## phishoook (Jan 5, 2002)

No gun, not that I discourage of it. I guess it's a $$ thing, and a two year old.

......was riding with a friend while he did a Trailer Court last winter. Half the snow one way, half the other. Well this one guy didn't like that(previous threats), he came out with a shovel getting ready to hit the truck. Then he slams the door open and knocked the guy down, he got back up with the shovel, so Jason got out and knocked that s.o.b. out.


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## rec067 (Oct 17, 2002)

Always armed (comes with the other job), several to choose from Long time law enforcment officer, Swat team leader, lots of training. I always encorage people to protect themselves. Just be darn sure of your self, the laws, and inocent bystanders. Practice Practice Practice. Be safe and pray you never have to use it, but thank god you have it if you need it.


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## SCFALL (Nov 24, 2002)

*LOOKING DOWN A SHOTGUN BARREL*

This happened about 10 yrs ago at my cabin in Houghton Lake. I had just returned from shopping when the crack head drunk renter from next door stepped out to tell me about my bad driving habits on our private rd. next thing he has a 12 gauge dbbl on me. From 25 feet I could have stuck my head down the barrel, I draw my Smith but realized if I showed I had better shoot first so I kept it in my lap ( cocked of course ) while sitting in my Bronco and talked my way out of it then went to see the state police they piced him up and charged him with 3 counts of felonius assult and 3 of felony firearms ( 3 people in veh.) we went to court and they plead to 1 count of pointing a firearm without malice( at least Mi if you draw down on someone dont admit to it being loaded) misdemenor 6 month probation said he kept the handy to scare dogs. Then the prosocutor ( spelling) had the b*lls to call me out of the courtroom and tell me he was sick and tired of us weekenders comming up and giving his good residents a bad time. ( the scumbag had just moved from Tn. the summer before think he went right back too the cabin had been in the family for 50 yrs.) I told him the next time I would SHOOT FIRST TALK LATTER, he said he would prosecute me to the fullest I told him I sure F....... hoped so cause thats what I was paying him for. Got a pat on the back and an atta boy from the aresting Troops for that one. As you can tell still hot over that one. My point is even though you carry, you need to keep a calm head and try to talk your way out first weapon second ITS NOT FUN TO PLAY GOD with someones life! Trust me I do it too often as a Fire Chief & EMT


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## streetsurfin' (Jan 22, 2004)

If I were to legally carry this would be my weapon of choice...


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## Lynden-Jeff (May 21, 2006)

lol this is hilarious. We don't need weapons to plow snow around here.


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## Lawn Care Plus (Oct 23, 2006)

HandyHaver;66057 said:


> Phillyplowking1,
> 
> I feel for you brother. All my properties are in west & s/west.
> I worked the north end years ago (not plowing). Damn, they shoot you over a parking spot. If they shovel it and put their kitchen chair, trash can ect..in the spot you best not move it or they will start bustin caps on yout butt.........
> ...


The name Philidelphia is the Greek word for Brotherly love, vs sensual, sexual, intimate physical, or Godly and unconditional love. It is a fondness.

Now having said that, you could say that there is a fondness to take you, your stuff, or anything that is not rightfully theirs.rolleyes:

Tim


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## CARDOCTOR (Nov 29, 2002)

yamaguy

never bring a knife to a gun fight

JR


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## Dissociative (Feb 28, 2007)

yes..there is a 1911 of some kind with me all the time


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## 03SuperCrew330 (Nov 7, 2006)

I have a cwp for high capacity and I carry daily. I have never had to use it in my 10 years carrying and I hope I never do.

When I was younger I always wanted to be on site when some whacko started shooting and killing innocent people...to maybe feel like I made a difference by dropping him. Now I have a wife and 3 kids, I now hope I am never in a situation that I must use deadly force...but if I must I must.

I go to the range 3 times a year, keep 3 hi-capacity (15 round) magazines with me and my Glock 23 and like a boy scout I am always prepared but hopefully wont ever have to use it.

I feel that in this day and age a large percent of the population is mentally unstable and wants to harm people for "fun" or they feel they have to kill innocent people before they take their own life and that scared the crap outta me.

I'm not a small guy, 6'1, 240 and I can fight....but I can't outrun a bullet, all I can do is keep my cool, steady my aim and hit my target if that situation presents itself.

God be with us when we our out simply trying to make a living to survive in todays costly USA. God bless the USA!


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

sp 2340 stays with me all the time on my hip and a .38 special in the cubby hole on the door after being in the middle of a gang fight in one of the lots that i do i will never plow with out it gotta love Gary Indiana


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## mulcahy mowing (Jan 16, 2006)

about to be jumped by 5 big black guys? Lock doors (I always have them locked) drop plow and step on the gas... trust me they will get out of the way.

seriously, I mow lawns in Rhode Island in some urban areas. small little strips of lawn I have had gang fights going on in front of my truck! when I came around from the back yard of one house (a big 3 family with common yard) on the way back to the trailer a huge street fight was going on at least a dozen guys. I just turned around called the police and mowed that lawn again. police showed up about 5 min later and broke it up but damn I was freaked out thank god I don't plow there.


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## WisEd (Jan 5, 2008)

When seconds count... the police are only minutes away.
Colt is by your side.


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## makplow (Nov 2, 2005)

I wonder why folks want gun laws?? I bet most would flunk on the range.

Mak.


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## DUMZ (Dec 3, 2007)

I've never even had to think about taking a gun with me to work... I carry tools but never thought.... I should grab my pistol for protection today... Grew up on the farm, and will stay here till I'm gone.


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