# $17500. for lowes!



## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

Thats the seasonal rate from you know who, includes deicing. These people are on drugs! This location in s e mass is about 80000 sq. ft.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

lawn king;829814 said:


> Thats the seasonal rate from you know who, includes deicing. These people are on drugs! This location in s e mass is about 80000 sq. ft.


I could only dream of getting $9k/acre/season.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Watch out Abington massachusetts here we come! i'm bringing $150 an hour and $.22/lb. for salt with me, hells yeah! I knew there were greener pastures somewhere!


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

It must be the same company doing a very large plaza here in Pa. I dont know the exact sqft but its very close to 360,000 sqft....going for 18k-20k. WTF! That includes all sidewalks and salting for the season.


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

The lady calls my office, informs me who she is, and says i have a great deal for you. She cant understand why im telling her to take a hike?


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

That Lowes job sounds like decent money to me. Southeast Mass? Not even 20 storms a year? 2-3 hours of plowing and a ton of salt for almost a grand a trip? Am I missing something here?

Brian - that one you're talking about sounds a little painful though.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

i agree, 80K isnt that big of a parking lot for that amount.

we dont know the service levels though, trigger, although I assume trace, etc...


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

You guys have at it, $50,000 gets my attention. You have to live through a kick a$$ new england winter!


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

I don't know about Mass but the average Lowes store here in Toronto would be worth about 50K-70K for the winter with salt and sidewalks included. This would be an average Lowes sized lot and about 45 events/season. This 20k seems very weak to me if the lots is an average sized Lowes store size. How much a tonne are you paying for salt down there and how much would it take? Is this guy even covering his salt cost?


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

lawn king;829814 said:


> Thats the seasonal rate from you know who, includes deicing. These people are on drugs! This location in s e mass is about 80000 sq. ft.


2 acres for $17500. I wish I could get that much an acrepayup. I think your sq. ft. estimate is off a bit .


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## DAFFMOBILEWASH (Dec 9, 2006)

DellDoug;829841 said:


> I don't know about Mass but the average Lowes store here in Toronto would be worth about 50K-70K for the winter with salt and sidewalks included. This would be an average Lowes sized lot and about 45 events/season. This 20k seems very weak to me if the lots is an average sized Lowes store size. How much a tonne are you paying for salt down there and how much would it take? Is this guy even covering his salt cost?


I thought the 17000K was a little light too. Perhaps it is a Canadian thing???? Then again I am a partial to the zero tolerance by the push accounts.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

DAFFMOBILEWASH;829850 said:


> I thought the 17000K was a little light too. Perhaps it is a Canadian thing???? Then again I am a partial to the zero tolerance by the push accounts.


that is only for 80000 sq ft. that is a cakewalk. All wide open and push to one end.


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

We pay around $90. per ton for salt here. As far as footage goes, i eyeballed it, if anything im under by 10 or 20 thousand. Boston is the highest cost of living in the country. We pay more for everything from food to fuel! We handle an account like this with loaders, a cat loader rental is $5000. per month?


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

Burkartsplow;829853 said:


> that is only for 80000 sq ft. that is a cakewalk. All wide open and push to one end.


Well I don't know...But I will use our Toronto costs. Just salt. No labour or no plowing.....

Salt by the time I load it store it and spread it costs me $150/tonne (includes truck and fuel) If I use 2 tonnes (which every Lowes store I have scene will take;they are all alot larger then 80,000 sq/ft) and its retail. Then I have a salt cost of $300/application. Now If you are going to salt 35 times a winter that would be $10500 in salt.

Are you going to plow a lot and do the sidewalks for $7000 at a retail location? I'm not...not even close. If you only lost $10 000 in the senario I would be impressed. Now fire away and correct me if I am wrong.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

lawn king;829857 said:


> We pay around $90. per ton for salt here. As far as footage goes, i eyeballed it, if anything im under by 10 or 20 thousand. Boston is the highest cost of living in the country. We pay more for everything from food to fuel! We handle an account like this with loaders, a cat loader rental is $5000. per month?


Wow what is the address? I want to Google Earth this place?


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

DellDoug;829859 said:


> Well I don't know...But I will use our Toronto costs. Just salt. No labour or no plowing.....
> 
> Salt by the time I load it store it and spread it costs me $150/tonne (includes truck and fuel) If I use 2 tonnes (which every Lowes store I have scene will take;they are all alot larger then 80,000 sq/ft) and its retail. Then I have a salt cost of $300/application. Now If you are going to salt 35 times a winter that would be $10500 in salt.
> 
> Are you going to plow a lot and do the sidewalks for $7000 at a retail location? I'm not...not even close. If you only lost $10 000 in the senario I would be impressed. Now fire away and correct me if I am wrong.


Not saying you are wrong. All I am saying here in the states and where I live a 2 acre lot is not big and can be done easily with a 10 ft blade in an hour an half. I have never seen a lowes parking lot that is only 80000 Sq ft. So I to would also like to google earth this place and take a look. I am not trying to argue with you and canadian prices and american prices are going to be different. But the one guy who says they use a loader on a 2 acre lot seems a bit extreme to me in most applications. We only bring in a loader twice a year to push back and stack piles around the site and we are set.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

Burkartsplow;829874 said:


> Not saying you are wrong. All I am saying here in the states and where I live a 2 acre lot is not big and can be done easily with a 10 ft blade in an hour an half. I have never seen a lowes parking lot that is only 80000 Sq ft. So I to would also like to google earth this place and take a look. I am not trying to argue with you and canadian prices and american prices are going to be different. But the one guy who says they use a loader on a 2 acre lot seems a bit extreme to me in most applications. We only bring in a loader twice a year to push back and stack piles around the site and we are set.


I think your right. We need to see a picture. Any Lowes I have ever scene would need a loader. In retail up here you also have to stack and relocate (on site) for the contract price. I don't think the prices are that different. Our Equipment and materials costs are about the same. The number of events and the level of quality is maybe different. In Toronto its black asphalt or your fired. The job has to be perfect or you will also be sued out of business.


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## MSS Mow (Mar 19, 2006)

lawn king;829857 said:


> We pay around $90. per ton for salt here. As far as footage goes, i eyeballed it, if anything im under by 10 or 20 thousand. *Boston is the highest cost of living in the country. We pay more for everything from food to fuel! *We handle an account like this with loaders, a cat loader rental is $5000. per month?


I visit Boston a few times a year (10-12 times) mainly for leisure activities such as Red Sox, Bruins, etc.

From what I always observe, the cost of fuel is consistently 15-25cents LOWER than here in Maine. We of course eat out 3 meals a day while there and find that those costs are similar in cost to what we see here. Hotels depend on exact location, but can also be similar in pricing to many other areas of the country, even lower in places. From what I hear housing is quite a bit higher in Boston, but I wouldn't know first hand.

My point is that the grass is not always greener on the other side of the state border. Many people think that living in rural maine that things are cheap. NOT SO.


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## salopez (Apr 11, 2004)

wow down here, Brickman charged Lowes, 35k for a 10 inch storm.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

400 Bedford St
Abington, MA 02351
(781) 681-6513

Lowes address in that town from google.

Lifted from google earth









Not sure what lot it is on the map

Here is a street view off google maps


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

gotta be the one on the bottom left, based on what I know about the lowes around here, and but that lot isnt even close to 80k ft2


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Here is better aimed shot. Apparently it's only a few years old. I don't think this image is accurate though. The shoot was either taken in 02 or 07 by google, but street view was done in 08 when it appeared to be still under construction. I'm sure lawn king can verify....If this is even the Lowe's in question. In that area, there is about 6 on the outlying Boston area. Lawn King correct if I'm wrong, but I use to deliver truck loads of Poland Spring water to the Lowe's & Home Depot's in that area.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Sounds a little on the light side to me.

I was wondering on the layout, the one closest to me has islands and light poles everyplace.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

Looks like a lot I have done, it is just under 2 acres in size. Easy push by the looks. Split it up and you are good to go. Working on a few bids for lots that size right now.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

Well I guess I am out to lunch on how to both price and plow snow. Retail expectation here in Toronto is very very high. I couldn't nor would I even try and plow that lot, salt it and clear the sidewalks for $17 500. I wish you all the best if you can make money doing that type of work for that kind of money. Cheers 
Doug


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## PLCI (Nov 8, 2004)

Quick thoughts

* Lots of carts all over the lot (what hapens during a day time storm when they havnt moved them)
* Lots of people coming out of the store with packages & large loads (slip & fall)
* Does the hours the store is open impact your price?
* How many follow up visits have you included after the storm
* Do you have clause for snow tracked in to the building, guarding you against a slip & fall?

Seems a little cheap for a large retail, especially with the liability. My feeling is that the way the economy is going you are going to see an increase in the ammount of slip and falls.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

It will cost $4000/year just to insure the job with a 5,000 000 liability policy (general retail requirement). Again I wish Burkart all the best.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DellDoug;830125 said:


> It will cost $4000/year just to insure the job with a 5,000 000 liability policy (general retail requirement). Again I wish Burkart all the best.


Assuming there is a $5 mil requirement, which I have yet to run across. I have only had one request for a $2 mil liability.

And it doesn't come close to costing that much for one customer here in MI. That's almost my total liability for the entire year.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;830128 said:


> Assuming there is a $5 mil requirement, which I have yet to run across. I have only had one request for a $2 mil liability.
> 
> And it doesn't come close to costing that much for one customer here in MI. That's almost my total liability for the entire year.


Thats good for you guys. Up here 5 million is pretty much standard for most retail plaza's bigger then a 7/11. 2 million will cover you for industrial work. Its a contract requirement. Its also very costly but what the customer wants the customer gets.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

Do you have to indemnify your customers from all aspects of your work? Including quality and damage. We do for the most part. Just curious?


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

I gotta agree with Burkart on this one. Then again I don't get the snow some of you guys get. :realmad:

Bossman


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DellDoug;830139 said:


> Do you have to indemnify your customers from all aspects of your work? Including quality and damage. We do for the most part. Just curious?


If we're negligent, yes.


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## silvercity (Jan 10, 2009)

Lets not forget that $17,500 includes TAX,SNOW RELOCATION and REMOVAL as needed FOR THE SEASON. We get about 1-2k to remove snow from a average size Lowes lot and there is no way you can plow those more then 3-4 times without doing some sort of snow relocation. So you really need a machine, even a big skid steer at a min.


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

The price given, isn;'t to bad for this area....

.... 2ac Lowes lot is small, I see the ones we do and the ones Arron has around him and thats pretty light. 

The Lowes up around Arron are in the 10ac range.


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

DellDoug;830094 said:


> Well I guess I am out to lunch on how to both price and plow snow. Retail expectation here in Toronto is very very high. I couldn't nor would I even try and plow that lot, salt it and clear the sidewalks for $17 500. I wish you all the best if you can make money doing that type of work for that kind of money. Cheers
> Doug


Im with you doug!


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

2COR517;829827 said:


> That Lowes job sounds like decent money to me. Southeast Mass? Not even 20 storms a year? 2-3 hours of plowing and a ton of salt for almost a grand a trip? Am I missing something here
> 
> if they get less than 20 storms.....17,500.00 /18 storms= 972.00 IMO that's not very good money for all plowing, shoveling, salting , calc the walks. 2-3 hours might finish the place but you could be there all day on long steady storms keeping it open, keeping the walks clean and salting/calcium for walks


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## blk90s13 (Sep 1, 2005)

Thats good old low balling if you ask me


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

i think he better hope for just one event. salt, calc(if they use it) gas and labor is going to kill them i think.


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## Mr Bigblock (Dec 9, 2008)

DellDoug;830125 said:


> It will cost $4000/year just to insure the job with a 5,000 000 liability policy (general retail requirement). Again I wish Burkart all the best.


 I have to carry 5 mil liability benn like that for a few years now.


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## bike5200 (Sep 4, 2007)

I don't do big lots, I have a question. I have never seen one of the lots full of cars, when it snows do you clear the lot 100% or leave some of the parking farthest from the building untouched?


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

i have my guys keep the place open and if they get caught up the they spend time plowing at the rear just so we don't have to plow out 10" of untouched snow during the final clean up.. BTW how do you like your 565? of my skids that little one is my favorite to operate


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

There is no way that lot posted is 80,000sq'. Then you have to do all the sides and the roads in. The Lowe's in Newmarket went for $50,000 and the guy had it under priced for the winter we had. You might be able to do 80,000 feet for $17,500 but that is way bigger then that.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

bike5200;830412 said:


> I don't do big lots, I have a question. I have never seen one of the lots full of cars, when it snows do you clear the lot 100% or leave some of the parking farthest from the building untouched?


Here all pavement is plowed. You might loose spaces to piled snow but we do not leave areas unplowed.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&source=hp&q=big y southampton&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

I used to plow both of these lots with my pick up and a loader, the absolute best case was 6 hours and usually it was at least 8-10 and that was with one of the lots being empty. The longest we were there was 36 hours straight and that not counting salt. Often times we would have to come back after hours and clean up when the customers were gone

I don't know how big those lots were but they are not that big compared to other lots in the area. I am going to guess they are on the order of the lot in question and no way anybody is going to get them done in an hour and a half


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks for the info...I am not feeling like I lost my mind anymore. It looked to be pretty tough job to me. If you don't mind me asking in a ballpark range what did you used to get for those lots and on what specification? If you don't want o answer I understand, but the curiosity of this thread is killing me. Thanks Doug


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

cet;830426 said:


> Here all pavement is plowed. You might loose spaces to piled snow but we do not leave areas unplowed.


In the city a little bit south of you we have to repile to the outermost part of the parking area as part of the contracts(usually).


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## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

If I bid, plow/salt no shovel ,here at those rates I wouldn't get it.
Other big/bigger companies are cheaper.
Go figure.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

BlackIrish;830503 said:


> If I bid, plow/salt no shovel ,here at those rates I wouldn't get it.
> Other big/bigger companies are cheaper.
> Go figure.


 My friend,

Winning a big job is not always about the price. Allot of it reputation and presentation. Don't feel slighted about it. PM next spring and I will help you try and get some good PR going. That is more then 1/2 the battle. The bigger 1/2 of course is backing up your words with service and equipment. Don't get down...get creative!! tymusic


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## johndeereguy (Oct 19, 2006)

There is a Lowes not all that far from me I would do it for 17500 for a season, but I am here in Iowa as well. Hell I would do it for less. J. who does the Lowes in Coralville and whats it pay?


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## Peterbilt (Apr 28, 2007)

If we had a "Normal" or an "Average" year of snowfalls, $17,500 doesn't sounda all that bad to me. But The last 2 however would have killed us at that price. The 2 years prior to that, we would have made out well enough.

Our Lowes goes super cheep though, so we stay away from it.

J.


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## jlouki01 (Sep 21, 2006)

That parking lot is 200,000 sq ft. 40,000 sq ft. in drive's, loading docks, and access roads. 

2 Trucks 2ish hours to plow @ 85.00 / hr. = $390.00 2-4" push

3500 lbs of rock salt.. $393.75 @ $225.00 / ton. 

783.75 plow / salt ( not including any sidewalk work.. ) 

x 20 events 15678.00. 

I don't know what your season looks like up there but 17k doesn't seem to bad. You would probably have a bunch more involved if you started needing to remove any snow or had a bunch of walks to do..


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

jlouki01;831095 said:


> That parking lot is 200,000 sq ft. 40,000 sq ft. in drive's, loading docks, and access roads.
> 
> 2 Trucks 2ish hours to plow @ 85.00 / hr. = $390.00 2-4" push
> 
> ...


Does every body in ohio only plow when the store is closed and are there no islands in any parking lot ? I really don't get where you guys come up with 2 hours and two trucks

around here 6 acres of pavement would take a truck and a loader to stack from the tine the snow totals around an inch until the storm is over then about 2 hours in the middle of the night after the place is closed (if it closes) to really clean it up.

I think the difference is ohio only gets clipper type systems(maybe I am wrong), not norEasters that dump an inch an hour for 6-20 hours. If you planned on plowing a 240,000 SF lot with two trucks in two hours you might as well start selling your equipment now. Its the only way your going to make money with it.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

jlouki01;831095 said:


> That parking lot is 200,000 sq ft. 40,000 sq ft. in drive's, loading docks, and access roads.
> 
> 2 Trucks 2ish hours to plow @ 85.00 / hr. = $390.00 2-4" push
> 
> ...


When you say 20 events is that plowing events? That would be for us but salting would be 40-50 events. Using that # you would need another $10,000 for salting events. Then Insurance and Profit. Here that place is closer to 50k or more. Do you think 2 trucks can plow 6 acres in 4 hours?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

BigLou80;831211 said:


> norEasters that dump an inch an hour for 6-20 hours..


How often does that really happen and how many inches do you average in a year?


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Ok Lets see if we can talk ohio snow!

If your in the snow belt you see real snow, Two years ago there was a storm that drop around 30" and that was like a 2 day event, maybe 3 days.... 

The main snow belt area will see a storm drop 12" in a few hours, but thats only a few times a year.


When jlouki01 says 20 events... I think hes talking total plow and salt events for his area...

Southern Ohio I can remember there big storm was 8" of snow and thats when up north we got 20-30" depending on your area.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

cretebaby;831236 said:


> How often does that really happen and how many inches do you average in a year?


We get many noreasters most(if not all) of which have 6+ hour duration but not always an 1"/hour we usually only have 3 or 4 8"+ dumps. We average 48 or 49 inches of snow here. But averages are kinda useless you can have 75" one year and 23" the next and get that average. It only takes a few lean snow years to really drop the average

to make a long story short I usually billed about 100 hours/ winter for plowing the lot posted above and some other lots over the years. At $85/hour for plowing thats $8,500 alone. That leaves you with $9,000 for the loader, salt and the side walk crew, some one above stated a loader rental was $5,000/month(mid nov- mid april) so thats $25,000 + $8,500= $33,500 and you still need to pay your loader operator, fuel, the sidewalk crew and O&P looks like for $17,500 your at least $16,000 in the red


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Weather varies widely from market to market. Some regions may only get a foot or less of snow each season while others may get many feet. Some regions are colder than others where the ground will freeze each winter and have a lot of frost and other regions will not. Some regions will get almost daily snowfall while others will get only a few events each year. Some regions may get the same amount of snowfall as another region but the majority of it falls in several small increments while the other region gets the majority in only a few events. Some regions are routinely average in the amount of snow each year while others in lake effect regions can see huge variations. Some regions may get little snow but a lot of ice. I could go on and on. All of these factors play a role in what people are charging for their services. 

All of this is not to say that some people don't bid properly. There are certainly plenty of them that don't get enough money for the services they provide. However, pricing is a concept that is not, and can not be universal. While we would all like to make as much money as possible, some people are also forced to price things according to current and local market conditions. For a lot of companies who have a significant amount of money invested in equipment, supplies, marketing, business systems, insurance, employees, customers, personal sacrifice, retirement plans, etc, etc. etc., the decision to price yourself out of the market based on an ideal is simply not realistic. In this economy, the best some people can do is to find a way to stay in business and hope for better things to come. Perhaps over time they can raise their prices to a more respectable number.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

CSP#1;831318 said:


> Weather varies widely from market to market. Some regions may only get a foot or less of snow each season while others may get many feet. Some regions are colder than others where the ground will freeze each winter and have a lot of frost and other regions will not. Some regions will get almost daily snowfall while others will get only a few events each year. Some regions may get the same amount of snowfall as another region but the majority of it falls in several small increments while the other region gets the majority in only a few events. Some regions are routinely average in the amount of snow each year while others in lake effect regions can see huge variations. Some regions may get little snow but a lot of ice. I could go on and on. All of these factors play a role in what people are charging for their services.


Interesting.......


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## JOEC (Oct 12, 2004)

For does of you who would even consider taking a job for that price good luck and maybe drop a application in the store while your there cause your going to lose your ass. What none of you have not said is how much are these companys are making for your ignorance. You might take this job and in the same token have lowered the standards of our profession. These management companys that convince these idiots in corporate america that they could do it cheaper are idiots. If you accept this price and we do get a good winter your out of business. It gets better, say we don't get snow, do you really think that there going to pay you. A friend wanted to look into this whole shamble. They told him he would get his final check in june. His first check would come in january. I don't know about you but monthly accounts pay the first of the month Nov thru march. 
I'm noth trying to tell you guys what to do but don't let these companys take what we maintain. The more of you that bow down to there price structure the more that these guys lower our standards. Be proud of what you do and do it right.


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## ross3031 (Nov 17, 2008)

CSP#1 summed all this up pretty good. Since i've been on here i heard a prices for a truck from $40-$140/hr. I've seen skid steer prices from $60-$200/hr. I've seen loader prices for $60-$250/hr. This place is almost like the snowflakes themselves, no ones quite the same as the next. The different markets your in make a huge difference and so does the type of company you have. A small company with not much overhead can charge less and still make money. A large company with marketing, insurance, retirements, etc... need to charge more to cover the cost.

Northeastern Ohio... I live just west of the snowbelt so i cant speak for them but obviously they get more snow than we do. 99% of the seasonal contracts we do are based on 20 pushes, and more often than not we make out with that. 



Here's a quick estimate of what i'd bid that lowes at around here (remember, a quick estimate)
Plow - 2 trucks x 4ish hrs ea. x $75 hr = $600 (all but 2 of our 15 trucks have V-plows so that helps with time)
Salt - 2ish tons salt x $175 ton = $350
Walks - 2 guys x 1ish hr ea x $30 hr = $60 

Roughly - $1,000/push x 20 pushes = $20,000
- 10 extra just walks/salting = $4,000 ($400/per)

$24,000 season ***plus i'd probably throw a thousand or two in for the middle of the day pushes***

AGIAN, this probably will be close with some guys around here but could be way off from people in other parts of the country



And whoever said it was $5,000 a month to rent a skid... JESUS!!! I can walk into the local dealer/rental without negotiating a damn thing and get a S185 with cab/heat and 10' pusher box for $4,500 for the SEASON...If thats the price were your at call me, i'll rent you one for 10G for the whole season


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

ross3031;831383 said:


> CSP#1 Here's a quick estimate of what i'd bid that lowes at around here (remember, a quick estimate)
> Plow - 2 trucks x 4ish hrs ea. x $75 hr = $600 (all but 2 of our 15 trucks have V-plows so that helps with time)
> Salt - 2ish tons salt x $175 ton = $350
> Walks - 2 guys x 1ish hr ea x $30 hr = $60
> ...


 Are your sidewalk guys taking the bus? What about the cost of the vehicle they are in? You can get away with only paying them for one hour each/ time out? Do they have equipment or just shovels? Are you applying ice melter to the walks? Are you insured for that rate? What about the cost of overhead and communications and fuel? Repairs? You are only accross the lake from me...Why am I salting 40+ times every year? Are you keeping the lot black on 30 applications? How about the cost of a loader to relocate and repile snow and clean the islands? Just curious if you factored any on these things in? maybe you did...but I don't see it.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

BTW The guy said 5g's a month for a 3yd machine not skid steer. They cost about that up here. Plus attatchments of course.


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## ross3031 (Nov 17, 2008)

DellDoug,
Most of the lowes, Home Depots, Targets, Walmarts around me really dont need much of a sidewalk job, there really arent any sidewalks. Our trucks can pretty much get up to the building in most spots. Probably could be more of 2 hours though, i could be off on that. BUT, i also make good money on my sidewalk guys. Most are buddys/friends who need extra work in the winter. 4-5 two man crews, each with 2 blowers/2 shovels. driver will drive his own truck for about $17/hr and other will get about $14/hr. And yes i carry the same insurance as every other contractor around here, 2 mil. Salt trucks can reach most areas, never really much need to hand salt. those 10 extra walk/salts, rarely do we need to send the shovel crews first.
(most shovelers paid cash :whistling:, works out great both ways...)

And ya i'd say with get away with roughly 30 salt app's. Had one Walmart 2 years ago that was VERY strict and we ended up doing 42 apps i believe

Cost of a loader or to haul snow away has always been a seperate cost in our contracts


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

There is no cookie cutter approach to pricing in this business. There are too many variables. We can talk all day about the things everyone should consider when formulating a price. The one constant is production rates for plowing and sidewalk clearing as they should be the same for everyone. For example, an average pickup with an 8 foot plow can clear 50,000 square feet an hour with a 2" accumulation just about anywhere in the world. One person can clear 2,000 square feet of sidwewalks an hour with a shovel. What will vary is the # of occurrences per season in any given region (and a bad driver). Salt use will also vary a great deal depending on regional weather and customer demands. What will also vary is the amount of snow that needs to be moved after large accumulations (although this is typically something that is billed extra). But at the end of the day, the marging of profit one company needs, wants, or can even get in their market, will probably be different than yours. I applaud anyone who gets the profit they want and feel they deserve. Most of us have a number we shoot for but another number that we would be willing to settle for. Perhaps some people are not willing to do the latter. That is great if you can afford to do that. Some people can't afford to pass up the work either because they need the money (even if it is not at the higher margin) or they don't want to let someone else get the work (letting another company's foot in the door). Sometimes these are tough decisions to make.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

CSP#1;831571 said:


> Most of us have a number we shoot for but another number that we would be willing to settle for. Perhaps some people are not willing to do the latter. That is great if you can afford to do that. Some people can't afford to pass up the work either because they need the money (even if it is not at the higher margin) or they don't want to let someone else get the work (letting another company's foot in the door). Sometimes these are tough decisions to make.


What about the "Big Time" guys with ego's the size of Texas, who lowball the market into 1960 rates just to get everything in there town ? Then they move on and become regional and national "service providers". How does one go about keeping, and finding "livable rate" contracts under these conditions ?


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

t man, i am in the same prediciment, there are a couple really big companies keeping everyone else out of the large contracts where i am at too, they have CORE's (if you don't know what a CORE is, it is a government safety program that contractors sometimes need to do work for large companies, municipalities, and governments) and it is rather expensive to maintain, etc, anyways we are just starting to get into large commercial and I have no doubt that the 3 big snow companies here are trying to lowball any of my bids. my foot in the door came in the form of a large industrial contract that none of the big 3 contractors did a good job on, so when we came in, we gave them a fair price, and treated them very well, now i have one of the biggest contracts in town that well say we do a awesome job, and the golden gates are starting to open. it is great to have that referal, i wouldn't be into larger stuff without that first job.


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

lawn king;829857 said:


> We pay around $90. per ton for salt here. As far as footage goes, i eyeballed it, if anything im under by 10 or 20 thousand. Boston is the highest cost of living in the country. We pay more for everything from food to fuel! We handle an account like this with loaders, a cat loader rental is $5000. per month?


I hate to Hi-Jack a thread however the wonderful State of Chicago that is located in the City of Illinois in the County of Crook I mean Cook has the highest gas prices in the country


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

All I am saying is I talked to the company who use to plow our local lowes and they charged $25 an hour for a truck and an 8' blade. They are now out of business, go figure :laughing: . The company now plowing lowes doesn't charge much more. Makes it hard to be competive. 

The funny thing about the first company was that when he told me that, I told him there was no way I could work for that price. He then told me I didn't understand, and he was running 3 trucks so they were really making $75 an hour! :laughing:

Bossman


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## ross3031 (Nov 17, 2008)

i've heard of some low rates but $25/hr doesnt pay for the driver and fuel for one hour. "we run 3 trucks so we really get $75/hr" :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Like its been said before, depending on market and region, prices will vary, but its gotta be that no matter where your at, $45/hr for a truck has to be a minimum for a company to stay in the positive....


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

lol, i charge $35/hour for man labour alone, although if you own your equipment it gives you a bit of leway in the charge per hour, $25/hour/truck is just insane, the minumum i charge is on my little massey ferguson GC 2300, i charge it out at $50/hour,


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

A 80,000 sq.ft lot at $17,500 is a darn good price for my market. 
That is .21 cents a sq.ft. Even with 40 saltings and I would never put down more than .75ton on that size lot so thats 30 tons for the season at a cost of $85.00 a ton thats $2,550. for salt. ( I know that the salt will not spread itself and there is a cost for application )
Now 1 loader and a truck could handle 5 size lots of 80,000 sq.ft. each, so in other words roughly 400,00 sq.ft. in 6 hours, thats $87,500.00 - 12,750.00 for salt leaves you $74,750
My salt truck also plows so I save lots on the cost of the truck. So add on 30 hrs to spread 30 tons at $150 an hr makes $4,500 to be removed still leaves 70 grand, thats great money in my market.

Now if you take the Lowes that was used for the example, I went on google earth and measured it. Its closer to 233,550. sq.ft. and if it went for $17,500 then your looking at .07 cents a sq.ft. use the same senario as above and your making just over 23 grand. Now remove insurance, depreciation, employees, fuel, etc not much will be left over.

Thats why I like doing resis at .45 cents a sq.ft no salting.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Neige;831880 said:


> A 80,000 sq.ft lot at $17,500 is a darn good price for my market.
> That is .21 cents a sq.ft. Even with 40 saltings and I would never put down more than .75ton on that size lot so thats 30 tons for the season at a cost of $85.00 a ton thats $2,550. for salt. ( I know that the salt will not spread itself and there is a cost for application )
> Now 1 loader and a truck could handle 5 size lots of 80,000 sq.ft. each, so in other words roughly 400,00 sq.ft. in 6 hours, thats $87,500.00 - 12,750.00 for salt leaves you $74,750
> My salt truck also plows so I save lots on the cost of the truck. So add on 30 hrs to spread 30 tons at $150 an hr makes $4,500 to be removed still leaves 70 grand, thats great money in my market.
> ...


Neige I think you have your salting calculation wrong. You added 30 hours for 30 tons but aren't you spreading 150 tons for 5 locations? That's $22,500 instead of $4,500. I might have miss understood you. $50k is still good money but a long way from 70K.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

cet;831928 said:


> Neige I think you have your salting calculation wrong. You added 30 hours for 30 tons but aren't you spreading 150 tons for 5 locations? That's $22,500 instead of $4,500. I might have miss understood you. $50k is still good money but a long way from 70K.


Your absolutely right Cet, that would be X 5 Wow now Im starting to make some real money with my salter. To be honest I will have those 5 tons spread in under 2 hours. It was just to give an idea between those 2 senarios. I really like those Ontario figures,cheers to you guys, Quebec has a long way to go.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

We might get more money then you but that Lowe's lot at 225k sq feet is close to $50k here but what would you get there?

I would put 100 tons in there in a year, plus sidewalks plus 150 hours of plowing. I would do it for $50k.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Cet I would hope to get 32 grand, maybe 60 tons of salt. My price does not include relocating the snow, and it rarely happens. So by the end of the season the lots are at least 30% smaller. I do have some that pay to have the snow melted or removed off site, and other contracts where it is included, these go for lots more. I think here in Quebec they are not nearly as anal about 0 tolerance lots. It snows its cold, the lots will be white like our streets, hopefully the sun will come out and burn of that snow.


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## DAFFMOBILEWASH (Dec 9, 2006)

I think project bidding comes down to experience and work ethics. I know for me when the lots are white with snow my stomach hurts from stress not untill every last flake is moved or melted can I truly relax. Last season I loged over 60 pages of salting plowing events. Seems excessive but in our region it is the only way to reduce the possibility of lawsuits. I much rather drop some salt and be on the ball than get a letter in the mail.

Personally I hate seasonal bidding, No snow and you are a crook too much and you are shirtless. I dont think 50K a season for snow removal is out of the question. For what is the going rate for Lowes liability insurance per year??? I bet $50k is only a drop in the bucket in the big picture!!!


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

cretebaby;829815 said:


> I could only dream of getting $9k/acre/season.


thats because your in IOWA... no ones knocking lowes doors down in the middle of a snow storm to buy anything out there.

Here? hah, in jersey 9k a season per acre aint squat.. heck we can get 17k for a property 1/3 of that size.

If these companies are going to offer "seasonal" rates for these large stores then i guess we wont be involved with any of them after all :/ Its a plan for disaster unless your a 500k snow revenue or larger company that can take the loss.

Maybe 2 years ago i would have taken on the gamble, but this coming snow season theyre forcasting nuts for NJ areas and along the coast... you could lose 10-15k easy on that property at 17k for the season  Salt alone would eat that up with supply and labor !

sorry to hear man.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Neige;831880 said:


> A 80,000 sq.ft lot at $17,500 is a darn good price for my market.
> That is .21 cents a sq.ft. Even with 40 saltings and I would never put down more than .75ton on that size lot so thats 30 tons for the season at a cost of $85.00 a ton thats $2,550. for salt. ( I know that the salt will not spread itself and there is a cost for application )
> Now 1 loader and a truck could handle 5 size lots of 80,000 sq.ft. each, so in other words roughly 400,00 sq.ft. in 6 hours, thats $87,500.00 - 12,750.00 for salt leaves you $74,750
> My salt truck also plows so I save lots on the cost of the truck. So add on 30 hrs to spread 30 tons at $150 an hr makes $4,500 to be removed still leaves 70 grand, thats great money in my market.
> ...


you have to remember some states like even in NJ are strict with driving "loaders and push boxes" down the roads to stores.

You cant just assume you can take 1 truck and one loader to 5 stores, not in jersey

Bet more like 1 skid/loader/box per store location plus a truck to help or more.

Now thats a minimum of 5 skids, 5 boxes, 5 employees driving them, two trucks, salt, etc, you get the point.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

CSP#1;831571 said:


> There is no cookie cutter approach to pricing in this business. There are too many variables. We can talk all day about the things everyone should consider when formulating a price. The one constant is production rates for plowing and sidewalk clearing as they should be the same for everyone. For example, an average pickup with an 8 foot plow can clear 50,000 square feet an hour with a 2" accumulation just about anywhere in the world. One person can clear 2,000 square feet of sidwewalks an hour with a shovel. What will vary is the # of occurrences per season in any given region (and a bad driver). Salt use will also vary a great deal depending on regional weather and customer demands. What will also vary is the amount of snow that needs to be moved after large accumulations (although this is typically something that is billed extra). But at the end of the day, the marging of profit one company needs, wants, or can even get in their market, will probably be different than yours. I applaud anyone who gets the profit they want and feel they deserve. Most of us have a number we shoot for but another number that we would be willing to settle for. Perhaps some people are not willing to do the latter. That is great if you can afford to do that. Some people can't afford to pass up the work either because they need the money (even if it is not at the higher margin) or they don't want to let someone else get the work (letting another company's foot in the door). Sometimes these are tough decisions to make.


Your right, factors like shopping cart returns, % of islands to open space, store hours, type of store "walmarts lol" and foot traffic volume all are bigger considerations in our pricing than just lot size.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Ramairfreak98ss;832249 said:


> you have to remember some states like even in NJ are strict with driving "loaders and push boxes" down the roads to stores.
> 
> They are over here also.
> 
> ...





Ramairfreak98ss;832257 said:


> Your right, factors like shopping cart returns, % of islands to open space, store hours, type of store "walmarts lol" and foot traffic volume all are bigger considerations in our pricing than just lot size.


Trust me we take everything into consideration before we give a price.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Ramairfreak98ss;832239 said:


> thats because your in IOWA... no ones knocking lowes doors down in the middle of a snow storm to buy anything out there.
> 
> Here? hah, in jersey 9k a season per acre aint squat.. heck we can get 17k for a property 1/3 of that size.
> 
> ...


Are you really going to base your seasoal price on some [email protected] weathermans winter forecast? Now that is something to laugh about.
:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## JOEC (Oct 12, 2004)

Go on unemployment you'll make more.:laughing:


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Pricing is all over the board.

17,500 doesn't even cover the loader rental here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

dfdsuperduty;831760 said:


> I hate to Hi-Jack a thread however the wonderful State of Chicago that is located in the City of Illinois in the County of Crook I mean Cook has the highest gas prices in the country


Actually, you're both wrong. Kalifornia has the highest priced gas in the country on average.

Nice points CSP, although I don't think they're going to sink in too far over here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Neige;831880 said:


> My salt truck also plows so I save lots on the cost of the truck.


Whoa there Paul, what are you thinking?

According to the inventor of snow himself, this is a waste of equipment because you can gross so much more with a salt truck than a plow truck.

Then again, this same person says plowing is harder on trucks than salting.

This person has also run at least one company into the ground.

This person also says that cash flow is more important than profit. See above statement.

This person also totally ignored the extra expenses involved in having two trucks, two operators, two licenses, two insurance policies, etc, etc, etc. Guy is a disservice to the industry.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Just curious, what size loader do you think you need for a 250,000 square foot lot? What size box plow would you match it up with?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

CSP#1;833060 said:


> Just curious, what size loader do you think you need for a 250,000 square foot lot? What size box plow would you match it up with?


Depends.........


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## sunrunner_1 (Aug 24, 2004)

Does anyone know who handles The Lowe's accounts for the northeast region Just wondering


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

CSP#1;833060 said:


> Just curious, what size loader do you think you need for a 250,000 square foot lot? What size box plow would you match it up with?


We use a 12' box on a lowes that we do. It typically takes 3 hours to plow with a smaller JCB. A truck usually will come in and open up the entrances and roadway before the loader starts

This thread is interesting. I just bid on 16-20 lowes in Michigan. All lots where 5-7 acres in size. Non of them had much of any sidewalk and non need snow relocation !


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

CSP#1;833060 said:


> Just curious, what size loader do you think you need for a 250,000 square foot lot?


Apparently one that costs more than $17,500 to rent for the season.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Neige;832557 said:


> Trust me we take everything into consideration before we give a price.


In Ontario we calculate price based on travel time to the nearest Tim Hortons.tymusic


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

lowe's in my area, which is approx. 250k SF, we get 100+" a season, went for under 20k per season...


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## windrowsnow (Aug 31, 2008)

just found out earlier today that brickman is going to be plowing 50 locations in ohio....not sure what the price is.


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## grf_1000 (Sep 14, 2009)

Superior L & L;834766 said:


> We use a 12' box on a lowes that we do. It typically takes 3 hours to plow with a smaller JCB. A truck usually will come in and open up the entrances and roadway before the loader starts
> 
> This thread is interesting. I just bid on 16-20 lowes in Michigan. All lots where 5-7 acres in size. Non of them had much of any sidewalk and non need snow relocation !


did you do the lowes up here in gaylord? with or through dave?


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## grf_1000 (Sep 14, 2009)

i was asked if i could do the lowes store here for $23,900 for the season. zero tolerance. all plowing,de-icing and stacking. a little over 5 acres, loading docks,islands,light poles. all four sides of building. last year we had around 190" of snow fall. started first week of nov through middle of april. HOW CAN THIS BE DONE?


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

grf_1000;835671 said:


> did you do the lowes up here in gaylord? with or through dave?


 no Gaylord. That is crazy to think it would go for that little up there!

I did bid the Marquette location. The sub i had lined up said they average 70 pushes a year!


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## grf_1000 (Sep 14, 2009)

Superior L & L;835748 said:


> no Gaylord. That is crazy to think it would go for that little up there!
> 
> I did bid the Marquette location. The sub i had lined up said they average 70 pushes a year!


40 pushes avg. here plus the mid day stuff. i might do it without the zero tolarence and a 2" trigger  what were you nneding done up here? i saw an old thread of yours from a few months ago.


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## Mysticlandscape (Jan 19, 2006)

grf_1000;835685 said:


> i was asked if i could do the lowes store here for $23,900 for the season. zero tolerance. all plowing,de-icing and stacking. a little over 5 acres, loading docks,islands,light poles. all four sides of building. last year we had around 190" of snow fall. started first week of nov through middle of april. HOW CAN THIS BE DONE?


You couldn't even put straight sand down on 5 acres over the whole season for that price.


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## JOEC (Oct 12, 2004)

You guys just don't get it. Just say no. You accept a contract from these management companies and they put the liability on you. Your the one who is supposed to go check the the lot, plow the lot and salt the lot. There telling you two inches its retail someone is going to fall. They will never back you up if there is a law suit. Because there going to tell you are the sub and you are going to put there name on your insurance to free them from liability. What a setup they convince the company and make double the money on you because your bowing down to there standards. Let me know when your selling your equipment because they will put you out of business. If you accept there terms.


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## grf_1000 (Sep 14, 2009)

I did NOT take it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

grf_1000;835685 said:


> i was asked if i could do the lowes store here for $23,900 for the season. zero tolerance. all plowing,de-icing and stacking. a little over 5 acres, loading docks,islands,light poles. all four sides of building. last year we had around 190" of snow fall. started first week of nov through middle of april. HOW CAN THIS BE DONE?


THAT, is insane.

Never looked at it for plowing, but I've gone by it enough to know the size and there is NO way a profit can be made at that price.


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## JOEC (Oct 12, 2004)

Good man ! Now if everyone sticks together we could knock these bastards out. They called my buddie up and told him that plow drivers have been making to much money past couple years. I'm sorry when im up for 24 hrs checking,waking up guys,fixing equipment, and making sure that everything is done right and my customers are safe. I shouldn't be paid fairly. Kiss my ass. How do these people have the balls to say this. They sit behind a desk and make 50 percent and more on our hard sweat. Stick together. Dont work for them.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

These office people never bought a piece of equipment or fixed one so how do they know how much the plow guys are making. They have overhead at their store but the plow jockeys are pocketing all of that snow budget money? Tell them to go and buy their own machinery and do it themselves. Oh and only pay them for the hours plowing, no salary.


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## PPP (Jan 5, 2005)

Thats probably what they were quoted by the GC who plows all of there south shore locations. Keep in mind that the old GC they used and may still be using has been known to not pay there Subs and at times does questionable work at best. I had a PT job at a few different LOWES and every year Subs would come in and make a scene that they were not getting paid and this was well after the season was done.


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

This location is now under contract for $27000.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

Interesting...thanks for the info. Did you take it?


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

No, but i know the person who did, if we get an average winter here (boston is 42") he will make some money. If we get hammered he could get screwed and only hope to break even on site relocation. Too risky for me! I dont like the wording of their contracts & their flat rate with no cap is nuts, i have seen a winter with 120" of snowfall?


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## jim76 (Sep 11, 2006)

Looking at the map its the lot on the left!
Sorry Computer had a brain fart and didn't show the other replies to this until after I posted.


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## Case580M (Jan 31, 2008)

this particular lowes main lot is 485 x 360 plus behind the building, so well over 4 acres and not all straight pushes.

Behind and sides of building is another 29,900 sq ft

total sq ft around 203,000 approx 4.5 acres total


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