# Snow Removal for Airport



## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

I’m an airport operations manager that is new to the snow removal scene. Up to this point we’ve been using contractors for our snow removal needs, but we are looking into purchasing and operating our own equipment. I’m trying to evaluate things both on an economic and logistical basis. 

Basically we have about 1.2 million square feet of pavement to clear. About half of it is comprised of aircraft parking, hangar areas, and roads/parking lots. The other half is taxiways and runways. We probably are going to continue using contractors for very large storms to get the airport open in a reasonable amount of time, but for our common two or three inch storms—and even up to a foot or so-we’d like the flexibility of doing things ourselves. 

For the parking area it seems like a wheel loader, tractor, or backhoe with a good size pusher. If possible, we’d want to run the loader up and down between rows of aircraft; these runs would be about 350 feet long. Is it possible to push snow that far in a straight line? What size pusher/wheel loader would be appropriate for that application?

The problem with the taxiways and runways is that we don’t have a place to plow the snow; we either need to blow it somewhere or pick it up and move it. It seems like blowing would require fewer hours. Anyone have experience with large blowers, either that mount on heavy equipment or self-contained units like Oshkosh makes?

Thanks!


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I'd say go to other airports and see how they do it. A contractor is going to leave that kind of equipment on site on a may call agreement?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I can't answer your questions on sizing of machines.

I am just have a couple of questions in terms of the logistical end as long as you are going about this from a logistical and economical standpoint.

How many machines are you going to buy? 28 or so acres (i believe if my math is on) is quite a bit for a novice operator with 1 machine.
How many employees do you have for the snow removal process?
What are you going to do when your equipment brakes?
Are your employees capable of running such equipment?

Just a couple of things from an outside prospective.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

What's avg snow fall and location?


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Only having a contractor for "the bad ones" usually doesn't work well for any parties involved.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

1olddogtwo;2125100 said:


> What's avg snow fall and location?


You beat me to it, Good ?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Randall Ave;2125094 said:


> I'd say go to other airports and see how they do it. A contractor is going to leave that kind of equipment on site on a may call agreement?


Good point here too. Reminds me of rally routes for municipalitys. Call only when they can't handle it. Sucks to have the equipment sitting for only when they could not handle a storm. No one want's equipment sitting for the "perfect storm"


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

1olddogtwo;2125100 said:


> What's avg snow fall and location?


Maryland, about 20" to 25" with several 3-4 inch storms and normally one or two a bit bigger per year. Every 5 years or something much bigger; we don't have the manpower to run enough equipment for a five year storm so we will need contractor assistance.


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

Philbilly2;2125096 said:


> I can't answer your questions on sizing of machines.
> 
> I am just have a couple of questions in terms of the logistical end as long as you are going about this from a logistical and economical standpoint.
> 
> ...


I think we'd be looking at two machines; using some of the production stuff I've seen it looks like we'd be able to get the facility cleared in about 12 hours with two, and that way we'd have backup and be able to limp by in the event one failed and we could not repair it.

We'd probably look at training four employees on the equipment.

Breaking equipment is one of my big concerns--hence why I'm looking at the logistics side rather than a simple "it costs x per hour and will be done in y hours" approach. Depending on the path we take we'd probably need to develop a close relationship with someone that can provide emergency service, send one or more of our more mechanically savvy guys to training to deal with at least minor issues, or simply plan as if one piece of equipment is going to break (or a combination of all three). Not cheap or simple, so one big plus with a contractor is having them worry about that stuff!

Some of our employees would be fine (they have run much larger and more complex machines), some I'd be on the fence about. But I could get four, and it is not out of the question that we'd consider hiring someone with heavy equipment experience on both the operating and maintenance side if we could figure out some stuff to keep them busy in the summer.

Great points... exactly the stuff I'm trying to sort through!


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

The problem is this

I'm a contractor, I have X amount of EQM that produces X amount per hour plowing snow. I can only make XXX.00 per hr when it snows.

Now, I have you that only wants me as back up, for if the big snow comes whenever that might be.

I think you'll have hard time finding a GOOD contractor that will back you up.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I guess another point that has not been brought up is:

Will these machines sit all summer? OR: Are you going to do a winter lease? Is it cost effective to have a machine sitting all summer if this is a purchase or can you apply this machine to some other aspect of the work that is preformed during the summer if it is owned or being payed on each month? If it sits all summer, we all know what happens to machines that sit...

So we are talking about 12 hours on a 2-3" event and that is an acceptable time frame for your location?


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Where at in Maryland? 

Winter leases may be an option. Be hard pressed to find someone on call unless you want to wait until their done


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

1olddogtwo;2125141 said:


> The problem is this
> 
> I'm a contractor, I have X amount of EQM that produces X amount per hour plowing snow. I can only make XXX.00 per hr when it snows.
> 
> ...


That may be so, and is something I worried about, however it hasn't really been an issue in the past. Talking with folks who have been around longer than me and reviewing records it seems like on many occasions the normal contractor has stated "the forecast storm is too big, shop for someone else" and someone has been found. It seems like we have a lot of construction firms looking to do something in the slow season so getting people and equipment has never been a problem. Are they good by your standards? I don't know. Are we paying too much? I don't know. But it has worked thus far, so I'm focusing on the other 98% of storms where we don't need to find a special contractor.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I'd start by reviewing this document...

"Airside Snow Removal for airports with limited budgets"

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/acrp/acrp_syn_067.pdf

First piece of equipment they recommend is a plow truck; second is a snowblower.

At Zelienople (KPJC) where I built my hangars, the airport in total (my equipment, FBO's equipment, Airport's equipment is:

A Barko 961 with a 16' sweepster broom...a broom is important as you can't use salt and approved di-icers are $7 per 1000 square foot...prohibitive except for the largest airports. For small snowfalls, up to about 1.5 inches, nothing else is needed. The airport got the Barko with a fecon head for keeping the obstruction surfaces clear of growth. No idea as to cost.

A 1986 rebuild of a 1948 Sicard Senior snowblower, for getting rid of windrows and piles. Capacity of about 2000 tons per hour.

Two ex-Penndot 6 wheel plow trucks, one with a wing, one with a sander.

Two pickups with plows.

A articulated truck and a telehandler with pusher boxes for between hangar rows. A loader with the box would generally be the way to go, but I had a truck and didn't have a loader. The telehandler is nice because it is virtually unstoppable, very maneuverable and can either stack or push piles well off the pavement. It's not used as much now that the airport has a blower, but if a b lower isn't in the budget, I'd look into a telehandler with a box or, ideally, a plow with wings.

Basically the plows and pushers put snow into windrows or pushed piles and then the snowblower blows them into the detention pond or out into the weeds.

Takes 4 guys 3-4 hours to clear the airport (entrance road, ramps, taxilanes, taxiway, runway. I haven't calculated the square footage.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/acrp/acrp_syn_067.pdf

Sorry, link didn't paste correctly


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

Philbilly2;2125143 said:


> I guess another point that has not been brought up is:
> 
> Will these machines sit all summer? OR: Are you going to do a winter lease? Is it cost effective to have a machine sitting all summer if this is a purchase or can you apply this machine to some other aspect of the work that is preformed during the summer if it is owned or being payed on each month? If it sits all summer, we all know what happens to machines that sit...
> 
> So we are talking about 12 hours on a 2-3" event and that is an acceptable time frame for your location?


One big headache I see is that most of the stuff heavy enough to push efficiently is too big for many of our summer needs. A backhoe or tractor would be more versatile (digging, mowing, etc.) than a wheel loader but reading lots of threads on here it seems they might not having the pushing capacity we want.

From research on here and other sites, it looks like some of the older equipment that is past its prime on the job site can still be effective at snow removal. I think purchasing a lower cost unit would be our preferred avenue, and just run it periodically in the summer to keep it from sitting. We also might be able to store equipment inside if it isn't too big. If we bought something desirable, we could even lease it out in the summer--but that creates its own problems.

I don't know much about leasing from someone in the winter... has anyone had any luck with that in their operations?


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

You can lease from alban cat


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

Aerospace Eng;2125158 said:


> http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/acrp/acrp_syn_067.pdf
> 
> Sorry, link didn't paste correctly


Thanks, the link and info should be useful. We have a smaller runway (3000x75) but a larger ramp. We have about 150 tie down spots and 35,000 square feet of corporate hangars that all have their own ramps. Its a lot of pavement for only a 3000 foot runway, which is why I was thinking pusher on a piece of heavy equipment. I'll need to check out the broom options as that sounds like a winner for slush and light snows.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

Stick to what your good at 
Hire it out


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Why are you considering taking it in house?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

What is the identifier of the airport?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I somewhat apologize for what is going to be a fairly long post....Hopefully the information is useful to you and/or contractors that may bid on snow removal.

In answer to your question about whether something can push 350 feet, the answer is yes. Our longest push is about 750 feet, and our machines easily push the snow to the end. The problem is spilling. Using a protech standard loader pusher SP-16L as an example (since they give a "capacity"), a 16 foot pusher will accomodate 21 yd^3 of snow. After doing some math, this is 425 ft-in. So, if you have a 1" snowfall, you should be able to push 425 feet before significant spilling, while you should be able to push 212.5 ft for a 2" snowfall. Actual results may vary.

If you start having significant spilling, you then have to come back and clean up the spilled windrows. If they are large enough, you start spilling and create two more trying to get rid of one. You can chase your tail for quite a while, but it will eventually get done.

Airports are fundamentally a different world than conventional snow plowing.

Because it is hard to clear next to buildings or aircraft, what we typically do at KPJC is to run a snowblower (or, for light snows, a snowgrader from jmenterprises) to clear 2 to 3 feet from the building or aircraft, then run a plow to widen the cleared path to 8 feet or so, and then start pushing. This way spillage stays far enough away from the building so that you can clean it up, rather than winding up with a berm under the tails and props of aircraft or pushed up against the hangar doors. At KPJC, Tenants are responsible for clearing within 3 feet of their building, and once the airport clears the ramp/taxilane they don't come back. This is where communication with the tenants comes in handy, so they can shovel/snowblow that initial 3 feet before the airport comes through.

Runways and taxiways are done with plow trucks and a broom in-trail to immediately broom the area before it can ice.

The most basic example of this can be found in taxiways. For a group I airport (accomodating aircraft with wingspans up to 50 feet), the taxiway width that should be free of obstacles is 80 feet wide. The pavement is typically only 25 feet wide. For group II aircraft (up to 80 foot spans) the area free of obstacles is supposed to be 116 feet, and the paved area is typically 35 feet. Runways have similar issues.

For Group I and II aircraft, the guidance from the FAA is to have a berm no higher than 6" at the runway edge lights, increasing to 2 feet 16 feet beyond the lights and 5 feet 32 feet beyond the lights. Even if you ignore that guidance, the lights must be uncovered if the airport is to allow landings at night or in IFR conditions, which creates a problem if you simply plow to the edge and leave a berm, as you then have to shovel around the lights by hand.

Similarly, if you don't push the snow way beyond the paved area of the ramp, then you start losing ramp area for maneuvering.

Hence the use of big blowers on airports. Windrow the snow to the last 8' or so of pavement and then blow it into the weeds. You can get an idea of prices for used blowers at www.publiquip.com. This is mostly canadian equipment, but as a result they have a bigger selection of large blowers than most US sites. One issue may be whether you are required to have Tier IV compliant equipment, as the older blowers will not meet this requirement.

At the risk of turning this into read-a-book_site, guidance from the FAA can be found in Advisory Circular AC 150/5200-30C, "Airport Winter Safety and Operations." While non-mandatory except for part 129 airports, it is guidance that can be used either for yourself or for establishing and evaluating what is a "good job" for a contractor.

Guidance on equipment selection can be found in AC 150/5220-20A, "Airport Snow and Ice Control Equipment."

Another difference between airports and other sites is the lack of traffic before plowing and obstacles. This is an advantage because you don't need to worry about scraping hard-pack, and can use rubber edge pushers on ramp areas with reasonable results, particularly if you broom afterwards. This is important due to the no-salt requirements. At KPJC salt is not even used on the entrance roads, as tenants will occasionally drive on the ramps to get to T-hangars and the airport does not want salt tracked in. Urea used to be acceptable as a de-icer, and the FAA is not opposed, but usually the local EPA equivalent has banned it as a de-icer for environmental reasons.

With respect to leasing equipment, I know of some airports in ag communities that will purchase a large PTO snowblower (such as a snowblast/teamco 10800 or larger) and then contract with a local farmer for the use of a large (300 PTO hp) ag tractor to run the blower when they need it. The farmers aren't usually opposed as their tractor isn't doing anything in the winter anyway.

Similarly, you might be able to find paving contractors with brooms that are sitting idle all winter.

Assuming you a public airport, you might be able to get first dibs on equipment that BWI or some regional airports are getting rid of.

You may be able to get equipment using AIP funds, but that requires that you have put it in your master plan, 12 year plan, 5 year plan, etc., and have done the appropriate politicking. You also only get AIP $$ for equipment once every 10 years or so, so a lot of thought has to go into it. As with everything, there are strings. If you get any money for equipment, the FAA prohibits it from being used off the airport, so forget leasing it out.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

MAN, this is the reason I LOVE THIS SITE. Although I doubt I will ever be involved in airport snow removal, 1) this is an interesting thread to follow and 2) the ABSOLUTE WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE on any given subject and the "holders" of said knowledge that are willing to get on here, and take the time to share it with others, is incredible. AWESOME POST A.E.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

derekslawncare;2125401 said:


> MAN, this is the reason I LOVE THIS SITE. Although I doubt I will ever be involved in airport snow removal, 1) this is an interesting thread to follow and 2) the ABSOLUTE WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE on any given subject and the "holders" of said knowledge that are willing to get on here, and take the time to share it with others, is incredible. AWESOME POST A.E.


Very true... I am enjoying that the OP is taking the information that all are providing and listening as these are angles of the industry to think about and not taking the defense automatically. Hopefully he can get the information that he needs to make his discussion and use it effectively. Thumbs Up


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

Aerospace Eng;2125350 said:


> I somewhat apologize for what is going to be a fairly long post....Hopefully the information is useful to you and/or contractors that may bid on snow removal.
> 
> Because it is hard to clear next to buildings or aircraft, what we typically do at KPJC is to run a snowblower (or, for light snows, a snowgrader from jmenterprises) to clear 2 to 3 feet from the building or aircraft, then run a plow to widen the cleared path to 8 feet or so, and then start pushing. This way spillage stays far enough away from the building so that you can clean it up, rather than winding up with a berm under the tails and props of aircraft or pushed up against the hangar doors. At KPJC, Tenants are responsible for clearing within 3 feet of their building, and once the airport clears the ramp/taxilane they don't come back. This is where communication with the tenants comes in handy, so they can shovel/snowblow that initial 3 feet before the airport comes through.
> 
> Runways and taxiways are done with plow trucks and a broom in-trail to i


I appreciate all the details. I'm at KFME, we currently deal with Cat I and Cat II aircraft (we do get MV-22s on rare occasions which are Cat III but they are such oddballs and so rare I'm not really worried about them!)

We generally don't get too close to the planes, and as you mentioned a big concern is not having a pile they need to dig out from. Due to our ramp design there is not really anywhere to blow, so I think pushing (or a broom for light stuff) is our only option. The runway and taxiway would be good for blowing.

Any reason you plow the runway than pick up the windrow with a blower, rather than just blowing the entire surface?


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

TUPilot;2125467 said:


> I appreciate all the details. I'm at KFME, we currently deal with Cat I and Cat II aircraft (we do get MV-22s on rare occasions which are Cat III but they are such oddballs and so rare I'm not really worried about them!)
> 
> We generally don't get too close to the planes, and as you mentioned a big concern is not having a pile they need to dig out from. Due to our ramp design there is not really anywhere to blow, so I think pushing (or a broom for light stuff) is our only option. The runway and taxiway would be good for blowing.
> 
> Any reason you plow the runway than pick up the windrow with a blower, rather than just blowing the entire surface?


My guess would be that blowers are generally extremely slow moving, regardless of depth, they pretty much move at a crawl, so it is probably much quicker to windrow over to the side with several passes from the plow which moves quickly, then make one pass with the blower to get rid of the windrow.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

45 minutes from me or so that's cool. 

Check into alban cat for winter lease or rentals. They can set you up with a push box as well. They had blowers but you may be better off buying one


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

derekslawncare;2125478 said:


> My guess would be that blowers are generally extremely slow moving, regardless of depth, they pretty much move at a crawl, so it is probably much quicker to windrow over to the side with several passes from the plow which moves quickly, then make one pass with the blower to get rid of the windrow.


Exactly. Usually you are moving at walking speed with the blower (3-5 feet per second), and they are 8 or so feet wide, so 10 passes for your 75 foot wide runway, 30000 feet total, would mean about 2 hours for the runway.

The really big airport blowers move more quickly, but they typically have 500-1500 horsepower for the blower, and another 300 hp or so engine just to move the chassis

Even then, the big airports will use a set of plows towing brooms in an echelon formation to windrow the snow and then still use the blower for a single pass.

If you get 2' dumped on you and you haven't plowed with the storm then the plows can't push it anyway and you will have to take passes with the blower.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

If its not against regulation or personal, A layout of airport would get more opinion on equipment, operators, Trigger levels, Where you can pile snow and where you can't. You been hiring it out, You still have to see where your at. You may find out the Contractor is more reasonable than taking it in house. JMO have not seen to many in house snow operations make the grade. You will have to cover slip and fall performing in house snow operations.


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

*blowers and brooms*

As a pilot and a plow jockey a few things come to mind.

Every airport has very specific procedures for snow as lights and signs cant be obstructed and snow cant be piled up anywhere where low wings will clip it.

A loader with a large power angle plow make three or four passes will likely clear the centerline and enough for safe operations, but every airport i know uses large tow behind brooms and also blowers to blast the snow far far away after wind rowing.

If budget it tight, I would think one decent loader with a large plow with power ends to form a box would suffice. A large blower on a tractor with some serious hp and then a 4x4 with plow would likely be a great solution. Without a good blower, i think there would be issues. You never ever see big piles at airports.

Sounds like a fun job to plan out, but have to say i feel bad for the contractor that is going to get a pink slip. Not cool.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I looked at the airport on Google earth. You have a lot of area between the taxiway and Runway. Why, I'm not sure.

Was General Aviation Drive originally the runway? Those turnoffs look more like runway/taxiway throats rather than typical road intersections.

The biggest problem you have is the ramp.

At any rate, given the 450 feet or so between the runway and taxiway, I would push everything, including the snow from the corporate hangars to the southern edge of the taxiway and blow it into the center area.

You would need something with an angle plow to take snow away from the aircraft into the middle of each pushing lane, and then push to the south from there. Options would either be a pickup and a loader/telehandler to push a box, or a loader/telehandler with a hydraulically operated plow with wings to first windrow and then push. I wouldn't go wider than about 16' for a box, or in a "box" configuration. You might be able to push it but the maneuverability goes down and the quality is not as good unless you have no dips or humps in your pavement. I'd go with a deeper and higher box more so than a wider one.

Definitely need a big blower, either a loader mount or one on its own chassis. I'd probably get one on its own chassis, as they are relatively cheap and then you don't have to worry about switching it out.

I think those 15 individual 10' x 110' "driveways" to the west with airplanes parked at the end are a PITA. Is the airport responsible for them, or are the tenants? Other than a blower, I don't know a good way to clear them without either leaving icy tire tracks or a windrow in front of the aircraft, but there are a lot of experienced people on here that do driveways. They are not taxiways or runways, so there is no problem with snowbanks as long as they are below the aircraft wings, so about 2' or so for Mooneys, some homebuilts, etc.


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

Aerospace Eng;2125588 said:


> I looked at the airport on Google earth. You have a lot of area between the taxiway and Runway. Why, I'm not sure.
> 
> Was General Aviation Drive originally the runway? Those turnoffs look more like runway/taxiway throats rather than typical road intersections.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions. It is a former military airfield, and was constructed using guidance that would normally be applied to much larger facilities. Everything from our ramp to hangars to lighting system is "heavy duty" compared to what you'd expect at an airport this size.

Your suggestion of pushing to the taxiway and blowing is along the lines of what I was thinking. We either need to push north to the fence or south to the taxiway, and if we can blow into the midfield area south makes more sense rather than dealing with huge piles along the fence. We might still push some of the hangar ramp areas to the fence, but the main "alleys" are probably best done as you suggest.

You suggested using an angle plow in the alleys. Is that due to spillage off of box plow being an issue?

As far as the "driveways"... those are old helipads from the military days. We use them as tie-downs for inactive planes, so there is no urgency to clear them most of the time. We will be putting in some new T-hangars in the open area by the driveways, between the hangar and the access road.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Do you have an equipment budget and is there a ROI timeline you're trying hit.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Yes. Once your box fills you get spillage, which can be an inch or two high, or a foot or two high, depending on type of snow and how deep it is.

You (or a contractor if you use one) needs to be able to pull snow away from the aircraft or the hangar doors. Once you have a 8 foot or so gap you can then push and even if it spills still have 5-6 feet of clearance to go back and pick up the spillage.

We have found that if we don't do this, we have to go back in with shovels or a walk-behind snowblower because it is too risky for buildings and aircraft to try and plow within a few inches of them. Then you have to push the area again because of the snow you just took away from the buildings/aircraft still has to go to the end.

A pickup, especially with a wing plow with the wing on the aircraft/building side angled forward as a fence would be fine for the initial plowing, but I don't know if it would be cheaper to have a relatively cheap box on a loader with a pickup, or a sophisticated plow (angle, with wings) on a loader and forego the pickup. Others on this site might be able to advise you there.

It may be more economical to have the contractor do the initial passes, or even the pushing, but that's why you're doing the math. I don't think anyone but the airport would be interested in a blower or large (12-16 foot) broom.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

TUPilot;2125619 said:


> You suggested using an angle plow in the alleys. Is that due to spillage off of box plow being an issue? - *You got it. A pusher box will only load what it can carry, then it spills off both sides. Now you have 2 windrows to work, then you clear one, now you have 3... and so on.*
> 
> As far as the "driveways"... those are old helipads from the military days. We use them as tie-downs for inactive planes, so there is no urgency to clear them most of the time. We will be putting in some new T-hangars in the open area by the driveways, between the hangar and the access road.


First off... Aero - Picture worth a thousand words... that Google pic helps huge!

OP - I think you can handle this with the right equipment now. Not near as big of a job as I was seeing in my head. The only one runway makes it a piece of cake.

I would lean now towards a 4wd AG tractor to get the majority of the snow gone IMO. Run a powerwing on a front mounted 3 point and a blower on the rear 3 point. You would then be able to blade the runway in no time flat, get it over to the side, spin around and blow it to the infield... one machine. If you choose a powerwing, you also have box ability with the same plow. So as you plow the hanger area, blade it do the middle, then box it out to were you can blow it to the infield again. If you only have budget for one tractor, drop the powerwing or the blower and pick up a broom to do your final cleaning. Take a bit of time, but after a couple of times, you will get the hang of it.

If you have the budget to have a 2nd AG tractor, go front mounted broom for the small snow and rear mounted blower. Blowing is going to be your time killer. It takes quite a bit of time. So you could have one tractor bladeing while the other does the blowing, you will be time ahead.

Complement that with a truck with a v blade or even a Ebling rear blade, and your time could be cut quite a bit. Those little off chutes would be better fit for a pickup than a larger AG tractor. Truck could also be used to windrow runways and clear hangers.

Here is what a powerwing is: (angle plow with box wing ability all from the cab)


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Would this help? Originally purchased for JFK.


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

FredG;2125716 said:


> Would this help? Originally purchased for JFK.


Looks interesting... I don't know about condition or what it takes to keep something like that running.

Certainly some great old equipment out there, but I don't want to risk grabbing up a "deal" that we can't keep running, either due to logistics or the budget. Anyone know how hard it is to keep 70/80s era snowblowers going? What parts availability is like? If special training is required?

Thanks.


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

Philbilly2;2125660 said:


> First off... Aero - Picture worth a thousand words... that Google pic helps huge!
> 
> OP - I think you can handle this with the right equipment now. Not near as big of a job as I was seeing in my head. The only one runway makes it a piece of cake.
> 
> I


I like the ag tractor idea. Holds two pieces of equipment at a time (vs a wheel loaders one) and more versatile in the summer. How much power and weight do you need to effectively move a 16 foot pusher (or equivalent power blade.)

Thanks!


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

You should be looking for a 125 hp machine. I know someone kind of in your area that has one with two push boxes on his I think. Can't remember if it has blower


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Whiffyspark;2126071 said:


> You should be looking for a 125 hp machine. I know someone kind of in your area that has one with two push boxes on his I think. Can't remember if it has blower


I would agree with the 125HP range machine. That sounds appropriate. You will need the HP at the pto to run a large blower. I don't think you will need all of that HP so much for the pushing end, but I could be wrong. Of coarse that will also depend on the box side you choose to run.

I want to say that you could run around a 9ft dual auger blower at 125hp at the PTO - but the tractor guys need to chime in and correct me if I am not correct here.

Most of the newer ag tractors come equipped with a 1000 RPM PTO along with a 540, so you will be good there.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

If he wants a 16 foot box he needs the weight for long pushes. We run 8-10 foot boxes on skid steers but we're all tracks. 

We get one good snow storm every year lately and a bunch of little ones. We got hit dead center with the blizzard this year, his area got even more than we did. We were over 18 inches across 3 days lol


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mark Oomkes;2125208 said:


> Why are you considering taking it in house?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

TUPilot;2126058 said:


> I like the ag tractor idea. Holds two pieces of equipment at a time (vs a wheel loaders one) and more versatile in the summer. How much power and weight do you need to effectively move a 16 foot pusher (or equivalent power blade.)
> 
> Thanks!


Metalpless lists 125 & up for its biggest agrimax, which forms a 12' wide box.

For a 16 foot box, I think you would be looking at something in the 20,000 lb range, based on the loader sizes recommended by avalanche or protech. Weight (traction) is going to be more important than HP for pushing.

I think 125 hp is way too small for windrowing snow at airports. IN reading some of the forums on here, people are using up to 100 hp for driveway work, and throwing snow that has been compacted into a 3-4 foot high snowbank is much tougher.

Most loader mount blowers have a 250-300 hp engine. The old sicard KPJC has uses an 8V71 (318 or so hp) to run the blower head, and most of the ones you find for sale are using 300 hp or more (DT466E, 8V92, etc.) for the blower.

One of the airport blowers we looked at before getting the one we have was an Idaho Norland, with hydraulic drive and an 8V92T (450 hp) that ran everything. The manager commented that he felt it was underpowered due to the hydraulic drive robbing power compared to shafts.

We don't have enough experience with ours to be able to give you a good estimate on MMH per usage hour. The guy we bought it from used it for blowing snow into a detention pond from a parking lot. He put 20 hours a year on it, and indicated he hadn't really done anything except change fluids for the 10 years he had it.

Get an ag tractor for plowing and a separate chassis mounted blower. You will probably only put 50 hours or less a year on the blower. While this may seem like a low usage to be worth having its own chassis, used ones from Canada are cheap, particularly with the favorable exchange rate.($15K-$35K) Hire a consultant familiar with them to inspect and give you a condition report.

These would probably be overkill...
http://www.publiquip.com/DetG.asp?IdNO=-1140257014
http://www.publiquip.com/DetG.asp?IdNO=-160855367

These one about the right size
http://www.publiquip.com/DetG.asp?IdNO=252457639
http://www.publiquip.com/DetG.asp?IdNO=1777668129

Having a separate blower and tractor will enable you to do it faster and have some way to clear the runway, taxiway, and some of the ramp if one or the other breaks down.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Aero we don't get that kind of snow here. I think a 12 foot box or wing plow would suit him better than a 16. A 125 hp tractor might push 16 but I can't tell you how far it'll be able to push. 

He hasn't posted a budget so this might be all for naught. Just a 125 hp tractor is pushing 6 figures. Used probably 60-70k? Idk


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2126113 said:


>


Budget's and ROI also hasn't been answered.

There has been couple equipment suggestion that make sense for an area that sees mulch more snow with higher accumulations per storm. It's a small non commercial airport that get's <25" a year, most storms are 1-2" with a few 3-4" storms. 
Here's a couple options:
1.
85-100 hp Ag tractor, 12-14' Avalanche or MetalPless multi position plow and a blower. 
1ton pickup, 9.2' or 9.5' Vplow with wings, 16' Ebling back plow
Get a 15' Batwing mower for the summer.
Cost $160-175K depending on mfr.

You can handle the 5yr storm and mow in the summer. You'll have more repairs and maintenance, more training and out of pocket cost.

2.
Winter lease a front loader 
Buy a 12-14' Avalanche or MetalPless multi position plow
1ton pickup, 9.2' or 9.5' Vplow with wings, 16' Ebling back plow.
Equip Cost $65K <>
Est Lease per yr $8-9K<>

Positive is a new/newer machine, minimal maintenance, don't have a lot of capital in a machine that may see 100-150hrs a year. Will handle everything except blowing. Less training. Not a huge investment for a "lets do this in house" initiative.

3.
"2" 1ton pickup, 9.2' or 9.5' Vplow's, 16' Ebling back plow.
Cost $110K<>

Lower operating cost, easy to run, less training.
Takes longer, the 5yr storm will be a challenge.

Our local muni airport has a 4000'X75' runway, taxi way and hangers mulch like the one in this thread and it's plowed with 2 pickups with 8611 Blizzard Power Plows. Sure it takes time but it's a muni airport and small planes don't fly in crappy weather.


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

BUFF;2126194 said:


> Budget's and ROI also hasn't been answered.
> 
> There has been couple equipment suggestion that make sense for an area that sees mulch more snow with higher accumulations per storm. It's a small non commercial airport that get's <25" a year, most storms are 1-2" with a few 3-4" storms.
> Here's a couple options:
> ...


As far as why... Reliability, Quality, Cost. All three have been an issue with contractors. The solution may be better contractors, rather than bringing it in house, but we want to evaluate all different options. I think part of the issue (and something a few folks have alluded to) is that airports are a different beast, and most contractors don't have the tools to effectively meet all the requirements we have. So we either need to look at doing it ourselves, are we are picking from a very small number of contractors.

Budget is TBD; depending on the capability we decide to go for either of the suggestions you made would be in the realm of possibility. Its ultimately up to our board.

Because of some EMS operations on our field, we do need to reopen quickly after a storm. And truck plows don't really work past an inch or two of accumulation; as Aerospace Eng pointed out there are restrictions on how high the snow can get adjacent to taxiways and runways. In the past we've had to move snow with wheel loaders, etc, after the plows come through and leave piles. A blower (for the large areas) and pusher (where the pushes would be shorter) seem like better options, and none of our contractors have them.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

There's no reason a contractor shouldn't have a pusher on site. If this goes out for bid send me a pm


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

That's what we use on our runway...... it's zero tolerance.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I agree you don't need a 16' box. I believe I said I wouldn't go bigger than 16, and then answered a question about what it would take to push one.

I think an ag tractor for plowing and/or pushing is a great idea.

Even though you don't get a lot of snowfall, over a big area the total piles up quickly. A 1" snowfall of relatively wet snow, which is what I recall getting there when I lived there, will create a windrow 2' high and 3' wide at the edge of the runway, and weigh about 250 tons. So at 1500 tons per hour it should take about 10 minutes to blow the runway clear, but realistically will probably take about 20 minutes as the blower will only be traveling 3-5 feet per second. 

Pushing a 1" snowfall with a typical 4' tall box 360 feet will result in an approximately 4' tall x 14' wide triangular bank that needs to be eliminated.

For 1.2 million square feet at 1" and 25 lb/ft^3, there is 1250 tons of snow, so figure an hour of blowing per inch of snowfall even with a 200 hp blower.

For the snowblower, you could, for example, use a Shulte 117 size on a PTO, but you are going to spend $20K (MN DOT prices for 2013) on one without a tractor. A loader mount snowblower like a single stage Sicard 2200 is going to be around $12K used, and you still need a loader. 

As previously mentioned by others, one advantage to having multiple machines is that after the runway gets plowed, the blower can start on it while the taxiway is plowed, and then do it while the ramp is being pushed, so the overall time is significantly shortened.


If you get a used dedicated chassis mount snowblower, overkill though it may be, it will be less than buying a tractor you don't have and not much more than buying a sufficiently large pto blower by itself. I wouldn't buy a chassis or loader mount snowblower new for this airport, as they can easily be mid 6 figures.

Slight Digression...

By way of example, KPJC bought the 1986 rebuild of the Sicard for $14K this year (I originally noticed it in one of the few serious craigslist finds on plowsite). Fundamentally the only problem with it that we have had is that the left front axle/cv joint was broken. It wasn't discovered when it was looked at prior to purchase, as it was on grippy pavement when it was tested and the transfer case was locked into 4WD low, so the person from the airport who was inspecting it missed it. For the future, he should have put the transfer case in neutral and tried to spin the driveshafts by hand individually. During a recent freezing rain/snow event the blower lost traction on the rears and it became obvious that even with the transfer case locked and the front driveshaft turning, the front wheels weren't turning. 

It will probably cost about $1K in parts (spare surplus axle) to get it fixed. The big problem has been finding the spare parts as the front f3200 drive steer axle (frame, axles, rear motor cover, and blower clutch are all that is left of the 1948 original blower) was made in late 1946 by Timken Detroit Axle (who became Rockwell in 1953 and then Arvin Meritor and Axletech more recently). 

At 10-20 hours per year, I'll probably be dead before this blower wears out. 

Change the fluids and grease the chassis once a year, and grease the blower once per storm while the engines are warming up.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

1olddogtwo;2126224 said:


> That's what we use on our runway...... it's zero tolerance.


How do you get rid of the banks on the side?

Do you plow with the storm or just wait until it is over?

KPJC is also zero tolerance in the sense that even if it 1/2 inch it gets removed. However, the airport waits until it is over if less than about 4" and at night, and then plows/pushes/brooms/blows. If it is snowing during the day and people are flying, then as long as the airport is above landing visibility minima the runway, taxiway, and part of the ramp is kept clear.

Since we didn't get much snow this year, I'm reposting two pictures from last winter.... One is what the ramp areas looks like when pushed, and one that shows what everything looks like after brooming.

I also have included a picture of the blower working a few weeks ago on a pile left after about 1" of snow was pushed 750 feet.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

He's just screwing with you artic brought the property for headquarters


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Whiffyspark;2126318 said:


> He's just screwing with you artic brought the property for headquarters


Thanks. I knew Artic was at an airport, but didn't realize that owned it or that it wasn't still an open public use airport. I learn something new every day.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

So after a little checking on Airnav....

Artic Aviation LLC owns the Frankfort, IL Airport. It is a private use airport with permission required before landing.

That being said, it had 23 single engine and one multi engine based aircraft based at the airport in 1998, the last year the FAA was given information. The runway is 4203x50 feet, and Artic would have experience keeping it clear unless it closes all winter.

Thus, I don't think the referenced post is trolling, although the video didn't contain any information relevant to the OPs questions. I think that serious answers to the questions would be both informative and interesting.

As a private airport it is not subject to FAA requirements/recommendations for snow clearance from the runway edge, or for snow clearance times. On the other hand, Artic's website indicated that they purchased "multiple" 1200 hp airport style blowers in 2013. Based on the video (at about 2:15) there appear to be two chassis mount blowers. No idea as to brand. I don't know if they use them at their airport or elsewhere.

http://www.arcticsnowandice.com/why-arctic/about-arctic

I would, and I think that the OP and followers of the thread would be interested in Artic's experience with them, and their cost to purchase and operate. Does Artic find them too big? Why or Why not? If Artic doesn't use them on their airport, do they just leave snowbanks at the pavement edge or use something else to push them back away from the pavement?


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

1olddogtwo;2126224 said:


> That's what we use on our runway...... it's zero tolerance.


Nice. Of course, we wouldn't have a place to put our aircraft!

Aerospace Eng--thanks for the info on your experience with the blower. I think our big concern with a piece of equipment like that is parts and finding someone qualified to work on it. Lots of great options out there, but I don't know if any models/brands are better supported, more reliable, or simpler to work on. Any research that you guys did before getting yours?

As a general question--should we go with a mounted blower, is there anything I need to know about PTO. It seems pretty standard on modern equipment, but if we are looking at a used tractor from the 80s or 90s would we need to watch out for compatibility? I realize this question may be more applicable to a tractor forum than here, but you never know.

It looks like some of the Versatile 4WD tractors might be good options--200ish HP, 20,000 pounds or so, and seem to be able to accept a variety of snow moving and agricultural attachments so we'd be able to keep it busy year round.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

For most of the companies, we found that support and spares were still available for the blower heads, with the possible exception of Idaho Norland which was bought by Schmidt who then went bankrupt. It's really the blower head that is the only difficult part.

Larue, Sicard/SMI, Snowblast, Kodiak Northwest (started by Ex Idaho Norland employees), Oshkosh, SnoGo, Wasau Everest, Zaugg, and probably some others that make chassis mount snowblowers or blowers for other manufacturers chassis are all still around for their blower heads.

I don't know about Loader Mount or PTO blower head support, as we decided to go the chassis mounted route fairly early on rather than buying a tractor or loader. With the low prices of the used chassis mounts it just seemed to make the most sense. The blower head is the most expensive piece. The guy we got the blower from indicated that he had a $10K offer for the head alone, so given that, the chassis was almost free. To inspect the blower we looked at the fan and paddles and augers, then ran it to make sure everything was in balance and not making any funny noises. 

The engines are made by someone else, so you have to evaluate what support for an Allis Chalmers, International, Detroit, etc. is in your area. The one we got has the old 2 cycle Detroits that were installed in 1986 in place of the original Hercules (chassis) and Hall-Scott or Buda blower motor, but they are still well supported by MTU, parts and some engines are still in production.

The clutch for the blower is made by Twin Disc, and they are still thriving and supporting products, and rebuild shops are plentiful. It's really no different than clutches on many pieces of industrial equipment, so it's not oddball.

Everything else on the chassis is just truck and tractor stuff. Rockwell transfer case, Bendix air compressor, Donaldson air filters, Eaton hydraulic pumps, Eaton solenoid valves, unknown manufacturer hydraulic cylinders, etc.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

If you start pushing a lot of snow, articulating or 4 wheel telehandler type steering works much better than front wheel steering.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

TUPilot;2126556 said:


> Nice. Of course, we wouldn't have a place to put our aircraft!
> 
> Aerospace Eng--thanks for the info on your experience with the blower. I think our big concern with a piece of equipment like that is parts and finding someone qualified to work on it. Lots of great options out there, but I don't know if any models/brands are better supported, more reliable, or simpler to work on. Any research that you guys did before getting yours?
> 
> ...


I am not sure what the mounted blower exactly means, if you are talking about on a 3 point as I am assuming by asking about the PTO, there are only two speeds of PTO in tractors which are 540 and 1000 PTO's. Tractors all the way back to the 60's tractors had 1000 PTO's were available as far back as my knowledge goes. My dad had a late 60's 756 with both 540 and 1000 pto's. They might go back further than that, but before my time of knowledge or even able to remember. Is that what you are referring to by mounted? I am not a blower guy so I don't know the preformace difference between a 540 and 1000 blower, but if 540 is good... 1000 must be better right??? :laughing:

Watch out with the 4wd tractors when you are looking at them. 4wd ag tractors are common to be found in a "bareback" setup which will have no 3 point and no PTO. Those are strictly pulling tractors that only have hydro remotes and a drawbar meant for pulling cultivators, anhydrous bars, disks, planters, grain carts, or even scraper pans if they came from an excavation company. They will be quite a bit cheaper, as we refer to them as "cheap horsepower" but if you are looking to run a blower or like wise attachment that requires 3 point or a PTO on the tail end, they will do you no good.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Aerospace Eng;2126586 said:


> If you start pushing a lot of snow, articulating or 4 wheel telehandler type steering works much better than front wheel steering.


Agreed Thumbs Up


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

Philbilly2;2126606 said:


> Watch out with the 4wd tractors when you are looking at them. 4wd ag tractors are common to be found in a "bareback" setup which will have no 3 point and no PTO. Those are strictly pulling tractors that only have hydro remotes and a drawbar meant for pulling cultivators, anhydrous bars, disks, planters, grain carts, or even scraper pans if they came from an excavation company. They will be quite a bit cheaper, as we refer to them as "cheap horsepower" but if you are looking to run a blower or like wise attachment that requires 3 point or a PTO on the tail end, they will do you no good.


Good points. A couple I was looking at were listed as bareback, so I figured I'd need to learn what that meant. It looks like several manufacturers made bidirectional cab 4WD tractors with articulating steering in the 200hp/20,000 pound class. Seems like if we can find a good one in our price range with the right attach points it could be a winner.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

TUPilot;2127037 said:


> Good points. A couple I was looking at were listed as bareback, so I figured I'd need to learn what that meant. It looks like several manufacturers made bidirectional cab 4WD tractors with articulating steering in the 200hp/20,000 pound class. Seems like if we can find a good one in our price range with the right attach points it could be a winner.


Bareback means it does NOT have 3 point hitch, just a straight draw bar and hydraulics.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

What are you going to use a 200 hp tractor for in the summer? Attachments are going to be expensive as hell. A pto shredder is one option but Just the logistics of moving that is going to be a pain in the ass. 

That's not the answer to your problem, IMO.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

KEFT - larger than your airport - I help there if they get snow and I do not. I also work on planes there. Anyway they have 2 CAT loaders - larger - no idea - on what number they are. 8-12 hours clears the place out. Both have blades and buckets. No box pushers. No blowers. 2 runways one 5000x75 - one 3000x75 ish. 50 inches snow a year. No big deal -


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Even though the OP never answered Buff's or my question, he should check into a fleet of Ventracs.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

FredG;2125716 said:


> Would this help? Originally purchased for JFK.


http://www.plowsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151093&stc=1&d=1456880299
Fred's Diamond Reo blower and my barely used Oshkosh with a 18'6" plow would make a good start to your arsenal.wesport And for budget purposes I believe Fred said he paid $5k for his blower and I paid $10k for my Oshkosh that has only 1200 original hours on it and I paid another $4k for the power angle full trip airport plow. So for a grand total of $19k you could have the two most important pieces of your fleet. And there is plenty of good deals out there on ex-airport equipment if you look hard enough. I don't know what your exact budget is but that should leave plenty of money free to buy a really nice loader with a quick connect, so that you can get a broom for it, then take what ever money you have left over and buy a metal pless pusher. You figure the loader can pull double duty of brooming the runway and clearing the parking areas.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

Aerospace Eng;2126278 said:


> I Slight Digression...
> 
> By way of example, KPJC bought the 1986 rebuild of the Sicard for $14K this year (I originally noticed it in one of the few serious craigslist finds on plowsite).
> 
> ...


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

maxwellp;2127471 said:


> KEFT - larger than your airport - I help there if they get snow and I do not. I also work on planes there. Anyway they have 2 CAT loaders - larger - no idea - on what number they are. 8-12 hours clears the place out. Both have blades and buckets. No box pushers. No blowers. 2 runways one 5000x75 - one 3000x75 ish. 50 inches snow a year. No big deal -


Actually, the photo of KEFT (January 2008) shows the problem on runways well...

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KEFT

The banks on the side of the runways should not be there, and there is no practical way other than a blower to get rid of them, which is why blowers are the 2nd piece of equipment recommended by the FAA, after a plow. Unfortunately, most small airports do not have blowers.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

Aerospace Eng;2128823 said:


> Actually, the photo of KEFT (January 2008) shows the problem on runways well...
> 
> http://www.airnav.com/airport/KEFT
> 
> The banks on the side of the runways should not be there, and there is no practical way other than a blower to get rid of them, which is why blowers are the 2nd piece of equipment recommended by the FAA, after a plow. Unfortunately, most small airports do not have blowers.


How can you see anything with that picture - No problem on the runways. The banks are back behind the lights. So if they are hitting snow they are picking off lights.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Masssnowfighter;2128813 said:


> Hey Aerospace, did you buy that Sicard in Vermont?
> That looks like the same one that I posted on Craigslist finds.


It is the same one. It was actually in Ellenburg Depot, NY. Used by a guy at a border crossing, and he was required to be Tier IV compliant.

The broken front axle that the airport guy didn't find may also have had something to do with that, but it looks like that will be only about $1500 to fix.

I think it will work out just fine.

For the OP, however, rather than a modified 1948 that KPJC has or the Diamond Reo listed above, I'd get something made in the 1970s or later, just because it is easier to find parts for the newer engines, axles, transmissions, etc.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Lots of unanswered?'s. This in house snow removal is not that difficult with right equipment and operators. You have to start somewhere and a budget for equipment needed is a good start, Good use able airport equipment is not that hard to find with a little monies.

If you are concerned about maintenance and break downs I would suggest hiring it out. In house snow operations has a very low success rate, Normally because the general public thinks moving snow is no big thing and are all snow wizards. Do you just have your feelers out or are you committed to perform this snow service. Can you handle your initial investment and were do you want to be with it?


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

FredG;2128832 said:


> Lots of unanswered?'s. This in house snow removal is not that difficult with right equipment and operators. You have to start somewhere and a budget for equipment needed is a good start, Good use able airport equipment is not that hard to find with a little monies.
> 
> If you are concerned about maintenance and break downs I would suggest hiring it out. In house snow operations has a very low success rate, Normally because the general public thinks moving snow is no big thing and are all snow wizards. Do you just have your feelers out or are you committed to perform this snow service. Can you handle your initial investment and were do you want to be with it?


The $ outlay vs snow we get could be a problem. I personally don't think a 200 hp tractor is the answer. There's no real summer work for that unless he wants to send it 3 hours away to work on a farm. There may be a few places closer but they all have their own tractors. A pto mulcher is good for a 200 hp tractor but then he has to worry about his 6 figure tractor getting torn up in the woods lol

Take this year we had one good 18-30 inch snow. Then I think 3 more nuisance storms. It's usually like that every year


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

The year of equipment really has nothing to do with it at this point. You have to know where his budget is at. My airport blower is a 67 with 3300 miles on it. Is this my choice machine, NO, I would rather have all wheel steer and about 2000 more HP. You never have enough HP blowing snow the more the better. A $5K investment just turned to a $60k investment with any luck.

The condition, service records, History on machine, Meaning were was it purchased new and what location was it working. Did it change hands 5 times from original airport. The military had some sweet airport blowers for $15K.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Whiffyspark;2128839 said:


> The $ outlay vs snow we get could be a problem. I personally don't think a 200 hp tractor is the answer. There's no real summer work for that unless he wants to send it 3 hours away to work on a farm. There may be a few places closer but they all have their own tractors. A pto mulcher is good for a 200 hp tractor but then he has to worry about his 6 figure tractor getting torn up in the woods lol
> 
> Take this year we had one good 18-30 inch snow. Then I think 3 more nuisance storms. It's usually like that every year[/QUOT
> 
> My snow equipment is not built into our budget to produce revenue in the summer months, As well as are excavator and paver for winter months. I will agree a six figure tractor is not the answer.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

FredG;2128849 said:


> The year of equipment really has nothing to do with it at this point. You have to know where his budget is at. My airport blower is a 67 with 3300 miles on it. Is this my choice machine, NO, I would rather have all wheel steer and about 2000 more HP. You never have enough HP blowing snow the more the better. A $5K investment just turned to a $60k investment with any luck.
> 
> The condition, service records, History on machine, Meaning were was it purchased new and what location was it working. Did it change hands 5 times from original airport. The military had some sweet airport blowers for $15K.


I agree completely with respect to there being nothing wrong with used equipment. All my equipment is used, and there are some blowers from the 1950s that are being used every winter in Canada (just look at You-Tube). I would get a used blower for not a lot of money. I'd look carefully at a military blower as the Italian gearboxes on the blower on some are a problem and very pricey (or so the Lancaster, PA airport manager told me).

The only reason for a 200hp PTO tractor would be to run a blower, but I don't see a need for that. If you have an old chassis mount for $20K-$30K, which is not much more than you would pay for a new PTO blower that size, I think it is a better option. Without the need to power a blower, you only need a tractor big enough to push a hydraulic blade with wings, which would probably be down in the 125-150 hp range, or even smaller if you are willing to take more passes.

The thing about some of the very old equipment is that finding parts might be an issue. A blower with an old Hall-Scott (defunct in 1960) or Buda (Allis Chalmers bought them in 1953) motor is great until the motor has a problem. If you can't get it repaired, you can drop in something newer as long as it has the same SAE interface, but it would still take some engineering.

The axles on the old Sicard we have are an example of chasing parts....

Timken single speed double reduction axles, the rear being a toploader. 7.33 ratios. No data tags, just casting numbers.

Once we got it apart, it looked like the failure started when the left side CV joint stub shaft broke, and then it caught in the housing and snapped the axle shaft and chewed up the spider gears. Biggest CV joint I ever saw, with a 2 5/8" 10 spline stub shaft, and a 2.5" 16 spline axle shaft, and 6 1.25" balls being the interface.

If we could find repair parts, great. If we couldn't, we could theoretically put in a newer axle (like an FDS1600), but the ratios wouldn't match, so we would have to change both the front and rear out. An older military 5 ton drive steer axle might work, with the same issues on ratio.

It took 2 weeks to find out, based on the casting numbers, that it was an f3200 (Thank you Sam Winer Motors in Akron, OH). I could not find an f3200 anywhere. It took 3 weeks before Sicard (Thanks Phil Owens) was able to excavate enough to find an old paper Rockwell catalog that mentioned the f3200 and scan some pages that had part numbers (but no diagrams on them). The catalog was enough to confirm that the f3200 and f3100 shared the same cv joints, spider gears, and left side axle shaft.

Sam Winer used to have, but did not currently have, any F3100s (used on WWII 6x6 6 tons and a few others), as mud boggers had gobbled up the supply. I did find that a few were available, but not plentiful. Found an f3100 for $875 in California ($500 in shipping) and it should be on a truck to PA in a few days. It's the wrong ratio, an 8.12, but the reduction gears on what we have are fine. We will then have spares we will probably never need.

My point was that buying something that had more modern stuff, like axles and engines that are readily available, might be worth it, as then you just buy the parts you need quickly, rather than chase 50-70 year old parts in boneyards.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

The facts about a newer machine would be easier to get parts for is no secret to heavy equipment owners..The ? here is how much moneys can this Airport afford or willing to spend on equipment for in house snow removal.

Same old story, I got to purchase something that I can use on property in summer months or something that can bring me revenue in summer months or there's a lot of options out there which means your confused or not ready to make a move and maybe never have no intention to and just got your feelers out. My summer equipment has no place in my winter operations and the same for winter equipment in the summer.

With all the ?'s asked by PS members that have been not answered this post is full of smoke and is going nowhere but to pass time away. How about just heating the runway, All snow issues solved or a fleet of ventrac as MarkO advised, Geez!


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I try not to worry about whether people are just blowing smoke. I just try to give honest opinions. In this case just giving the OP info, as he is uncertain about what to do, hence his first post.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Aerospace Eng;2129053 said:


> I try not to worry about whether people are just blowing smoke. I just try to give honest opinions. In this case just giving the OP info, as he is uncertain about what to do, hence his first post.


For gods sake. The OP has to have a budget and somewhat of a plan or nobody can help him. If not we are all blowing smoke. You just wrote a book on axles and spindles etc. Whats next to help the OP? HP and torque.


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## F250/XLS (Nov 23, 2014)

This post was actualy very interesting,,,,,, even without a budget ,,,,the info
given by Aerospace was good and well put......nothing wrong with sharing ideas
on diff equipment ,,,,,,


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

F250/XLS;2129166 said:


> This post was actualy very interesting,,,,,, even without a budget ,,,,the info
> given by Aerospace was good and well put......nothing wrong with sharing ideas
> on diff equipment ,,,,,,


Well.... I thrilled you enjoyed it..... The fact is the OP is still at square one besides some opinion on equipment, This info is not valuable till we know what the airport is willing to invest and if he's serious. Funny thing nobody can get this info.... FYI the equipment needed is available used very little and at reasonable money if you know the market and where to look for it.

The most valuable machinery for what the airport needs to perform this service has been posted. I usually go to the heavy equipment form when looking for above info. about drive trains where guys know this equipment and know where to get parts.

Whatever I will stay out of it. I don't have these problems, I need it I buy it.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

2 ag tractors, metal pless aggrimaxx live edges on the front. blowers on the back. pair that with a truck or a skid with a plow and you are golden.


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## TUPilot (Feb 28, 2016)

Its been a while--looks like this will be on hold, so I will certainly let folks know when an RFP for next year goes out.

By the way, if anyone does any summer work, or knows someone who does, we will be issuing an RFP for mowing shortly. If you PM me I can get a copy of the RFP to you.

Thanks!


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

I will PM you shortly if I can figure out how to on this damn Android phone


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Whiffyspark;2134404 said:


> I will PM you shortly if I can figure out how to on this damn Android phone


Tap his name


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

PM incoming


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

1olddogtwo;2134405 said:


> Tap his name


Thanks. It didn't say that before


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

Was talking with a friend who works at Torontos pearson airport last week! Hes a baggage handler.. I was asking him how they do the snow there? He was telling me they have different contractors for different areas runways/hangers/walkways etc... and most of these contractors have hired some of the airport employees on contract for the winter! Reason being they all have the ITAR and security clearance which saves the contractor on training hrs and such! And bc the AP employees hrs arnt bad (3 days on 4 days off etc) they always have guys available!! Kinda smart I thought


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

https://newatlas.com/daimler-self-driving-snowplows/51827/?amp=true


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## sicard (Jul 12, 2021)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I agree completely with respect to there being nothing wrong with used equipment. All my equipment is used, and there are some blowers from the 1950s that are being used every winter in Canada (just look at You-Tube). I would get a used blower for not a lot of money. I'd look carefully at a military blower as the Italian gearboxes on the blower on some are a problem and very pricey (or so the Lancaster, PA airport manager told me).
> 
> The only reason for a 200hp PTO tractor would be to run a blower, but I don't see a need for that. If you have an old chassis mount for $20K-$30K, which is not much more than you would pay for a new PTO blower that size, I think it is a better option. Without the need to power a blower, you only need a tractor big enough to push a hydraulic blade with wings, which would probably be down in the 125-150 hp range, or even smaller if you are willing to take more passes.
> 
> ...


Not always what you would think. Sometimes the older stuff is easier to get than the newer stuff. Especially when the older stuff was used of WWII equipment. And in your case getting the same parts for an FDS1600 would cost a lot more, and the old model is much better than the FDS1600.


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