# Purchasing snow removal biz



## Snowmanbob

Would you guys have any advice to a person looking to purchase an existing snow removal biz? 

I dont have any experience in the biz, but am piqued by the opportunity. The business I am seeing makes close to 1 million in sales and has a healthy profit of about 35% for the owner. There is also another one I saw that makes more than 1.5M but only nets 10% profits.

What are some things to look out for in this situation?


----------



## John_DeereGreen

You better have damn good managers to walk into a 1mil+ snow operation with no experience in the industry.


----------



## Mr.Markus

One does 50% less work for more than twice the profit. I don't understand your question...


----------



## BossPlow2010

I doubt they’d even sell you their business if you had absolutely no expierence, and it’s a quite foolish gamble on your part.


----------



## snowman55

Profit is so subjective in small business.

Sale price is usually a multiple of ebitda.

What does the guy who nets 35% pay himself? If nothing and he does 100 hrs a week business really has a margin closer to 15%.

If your serious I would pay an advisor to closely analyze the book. Pretty easy to increase profit on books to drive up the sale price.

I have a hard time believing a 35% net 
Maybe ebitda. But tax, interest and depreciation can eat up most of that depending on structure.

True profit margins of 10-20% can disappear real quick with an inexperienced owner stepping in.


----------



## Randall Ave

You haven't given much info. How much equipment, type of work, location, sale price. And if you have never plowed snow before, gotta ask why go this route.


----------



## Snowmanbob

John_DeereGreen said:


> You better have damn good managers to walk into a 1mil+ snow operation with no experience in the industry.


What if I get the owner to stay for a year to give me a good transition?


----------



## Snowmanbob

Mr.Markus said:


> One does 50% less work for more than twice the profit. I don't understand your question...


I was looking to get a sense of benchmarks in the industry and/or if either of these raises red flag


----------



## Snowmanbob

BossPlow2010 said:


> I doubt they'd even sell you their business if you had absolutely no expierence, and it's a quite foolish gamble on your part.


How long would it take to get up to speed to run a business of this size?


----------



## m_ice

Snowmanbob said:


> What if I get the owner to stay for a year to give me a good transition?


I've bought 2 businesses neither a snow removal business...both times it was a requirement that the previous owner stay on as a consultant for a year.

If you're asking my hunch is your over your head but I wish you the best.


----------



## Snowmanbob

snowman55 said:


> Profit is so subjective in small business.
> 
> Sale price is usually a multiple of ebitda.
> 
> What does the guy who nets 35% pay himself? If nothing and he does 100 hrs a week business really has a margin closer to 15%.
> 
> If your serious I would pay an advisor to closely analyze the book. Pretty easy to increase profit on books to drive up the sale price.
> 
> I have a hard time believing a 35% net
> Maybe ebitda. But tax, interest and depreciation can eat up most of that depending on structure.
> 
> True profit margins of 10-20% can disappear real quick with an inexperienced owner stepping in.


Great points.

I will definitely get an accountant and industry expert to help me with analysing the business, if I decide to proceed.

How long do you think it would take to go from zero to be able to manage a business this size?


----------



## Snowmanbob

Randall Ave said:


> You haven't given much info. How much equipment, type of work, location, sale price. And if you have never plowed snow before, gotta ask why go this route.


I am yet to receive details from the broker. I want to keep location confidential. The owner may in this site. Lol.

Why go this route? It seems to make good amount of money and majorly operates only during few months in winter.


----------



## Snowmanbob

m_ice said:


> I've bought 2 businesses neither a snow removal business...both times it was a requirement that the previous owner stay on as a consultant for a year.
> 
> If you're asking my hunch is your over your head but I wish you the best.


I am doing my research right now. I don't
understand how does asking a question equate to me being over my head.


----------



## m_ice

There are some snow only companies out there but I'm not 1 of them. I know that the companies that only do snow work there ass off year round! It's like any other business, you get back what you put in. If you think you'll coast through 8 months of the year and those other 4 months you worked your ass off will carry you then you are mistaken.


----------



## m_ice

Good luck


----------



## BossPlow2010

Snowmanbob said:


> How long would it take to get up to speed to run a business of this size?


I don't know, but i would say longer than you've thought about it.

These guys doing 1.5 mil in sales could have 1 account or thousands, it sounds like you've never plowed snow before, How are the people you manage suppose to look up to someone that has no experience.
That's like me Joining Phoenix Fire Department and becoming chief after a year.


----------



## Snowmanbob

m_ice said:


> There are some snow only companies out there but I'm not 1 of them. I know that the companies that only do snow work there ass off year round! It's like any other business, you get back what you put in. If you think you'll coast through 8 months of the year and those other 4 months you worked your ass off will carry you then you are mistaken.


Good point.


----------



## Snowmanbob

BossPlow2010 said:


> I don't know, but i would say longer than you've thought about it.
> 
> These guys doing 1.5 mil in sales could have 1 account or thousands, it sounds like you've never plowed snow before, How are the people you manage suppose to look up to someone that has no experience.
> That's like me Joining Phoenix Fire Department and becoming chief after a year.


I think they have few thousands.

How long do you think it would take someone to learn to run this operation?


----------



## BossPlow2010

Snowmanbob said:


> I think they have few thousands.
> 
> How long do you think it would take someone to learn to run this operation?


Not something you learn over night.


----------



## Snowmanbob

BossPlow2010 said:


> Not something you learn over night.


Is it 6 months, 1 year, 2 years?

Can you quantify?


----------



## prezek

Why’s he selling? I couldn’t imagine having to staff it with good employees or good subs.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Snowmanbob said:


> What if I get the owner to stay for a year to give me a good transition?


I have been in this industry for 10 years this fall. The last year (2012-2013) with my prior company we did 800k. I started in the location I'm in now in the fall of 2014. First winter we did 150k. Second 400k. Third 980k. This winter to date we are 1.2m. I have excellent field guys as well as operations managers that have been doing it as long or longer than myself. I won't even go down the sales road.

Unless all of the current employees and managers are set on autopilot and need nothing from an owner (I've yet to see this be 100% true) a year is not enough. This isn't like a factory where it's repetition. Or landscaping/maintenance where it's repetition. There are a LOT of variables to snow removal that you just can't learn in a season. Or 2. Or 5.

How big of a coverage area are we talking about?

A year of training/mentoring/consulting with the current owner would put you in the position that you think you know enough, but you don't know what you don't know.

Starting from zero, with a year of hands on work with someone that's done it on a similar scope to what you're saying, I don't think it'll go well.

Lastly...a company that is doing a million a year in snow with 35% net profit unless the owner is retiring, there is a reason for the sale. And probably not a good one.

Remember. In this industry, you don't know what you don't know. No matter how long you've been doing it.


----------



## BossPlow2010

Snowmanbob said:


> Is it 6 months, 1 year, 2 years?
> 
> Can you quantify?


Ok 15-20 years


----------



## snowman55

Totally depends on how involved current owner is.
Are there managers in place which do most and know most of the business. Or is all the knowledge gone after he leaves.

If management is in place it's just another business like any other.

Most guys here started from scratch and run the production so yes if you plan on running the production I'd say 3-4-5 years to get a handle.
If you have production management in place and you plan on running the business I think a year my work depending on your knowledge of business.

I just bought a business in an industry I know nothing about. Owner is staying on for a year but I have a great manager that plans on staying. I know business management after 25 years of growing my landscape snow company so I am not concerned about my lack of knowledge about the industry.

Good luck to you. Remember don't trust the numbers given to you.

I would also suggest going SBA route.
It's a butload more paperwork but they help you make sure everything is legit and above board.


----------



## Snowmanbob

prezek said:


> Why's he selling? I couldn't imagine having to staff it with good employees or good subs.


Retirement.

Why is it hard to hire good employees?
Is the pay not good enough? Any other reason?


----------



## John_DeereGreen

To give you a time period before taking the full reins. If I had to put one on it, I would want a minimum of 3 years of hands on experience in a 500k-1m operation before I attempted what you're talking about.


----------



## m_ice

It's seasonal work...how many "good workers" want to work as needed 3-4 months per year?


----------



## the Suburbanite

I am not in the snow removal industry, but I would guess that the easiest part of this learning curve would be the actual plowing part, and, given the size of the operation, I doubt you would be doing much plowing as owner.

And there's the rub. As owner/manager, you would need to deal with employees/subs that are bringing problems that, without experience, you will have a rough time handling. That is not to say that bringing business skills and experience to the table won't be an asset, but that the variables involved in plowing/snow removal are infinite and always changing. Without having handled at least some of them, and on a scale approaching this size, you are facing a steep uphill battle.

If it takes you more than a week to transition into a successful new owner, you will likely start losing accounts, and quickly.

If you go this route, more power to you. Please chronicle your experience here.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Snowmanbob said:


> Retirement.
> 
> Why is it hard to hire good employees?
> Is the pay not good enough? Any other reason?


No one wants to work. No one wants to show up. And everyone thinks they're worth 2x what they really are.

Maybe not 100% of people. But 90-95%.


----------



## Snowmanbob

m_ice said:


> It's seasonal work...how many "good workers" want to work as needed 3-4 months per year?


Got it.

Are the wages good at least for them?


----------



## m_ice

Snowmanbob said:


> Got it.
> 
> Are the wages good at least for them?


Pay goes a long way but the labor pool nowadays is garbage regardless of what industry it is.


----------



## Snowmanbob

John_DeereGreen said:


> To give you a time period before taking the full reins. If I had to put one on it, I would want a minimum of 3 years of hands on experience in a 500k-1m operation before I attempted what you're talking about.


Super.

Is there any book on this subject on running a snow plowing biz?


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Snowmanbob said:


> Super.
> 
> Is there any book on this subject on running a snow plowing biz?


The book of experience.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

How old are you @Snowmanbob?


----------



## Snowmanbob

snowman55 said:


> Totally depends on how involved current owner is.
> Are there managers in place which do most and know most of the business. Or is all the knowledge gone after he leaves.
> 
> If management is in place it's just another business like any other.
> 
> Most guys here started from scratch and run the production so yes if you plan on running the production I'd say 3-4-5 years to get a handle.
> If you have production management in place and you plan on running the business I think a year my work depending on your knowledge of business.
> 
> I just bought a business in an industry I know nothing about. Owner is staying on for a year but I have a great manager that plans on staying. I know business management after 25 years of growing my landscape snow company so I am not concerned about my lack of knowledge about the industry.
> 
> Good luck to you. Remember don't trust the numbers given to you.
> 
> I would also suggest going SBA route.
> It's a butload more paperwork but they help you make sure everything is legit and above board.


What do you mean by "running production"?

What's tasks are involved in running production?

There are management in place, but I don't want to rely on them alone. Else they may get the upper hand.

Great thought on the loan to ensure everything checks out.


----------



## Snowmanbob

John_DeereGreen said:


> How old are you @Snowmanbob?


30s


----------



## snowman55

Labor pool is bad in America.
Few people enjoy the struggle and completion of a difficult task.
Labor is looked at as beneath them


Ask Mike Row.
We have made everyone believe that labor jobs or to be looked down upon and that you need to go to college, amass $100k in debt, and sit at a desk making $50k to have a career.


----------



## Snowmanbob

snowman55 said:


> Labor pool is bad in America.
> Few people enjoy the struggle and completion of a difficult task.
> Labor is looked at as beneath them
> 
> Ask Mike Row.
> We have made everyone believe that labor jobs or to be looked down upon and that you need to go to college, amass $100k in debt, and sit at a desk making $50k to have a career.


What is the employee structure of typical company doing 1 million + in revenues and what are the wages for those employee roles?


----------



## jonniesmooth

Remember the old commercials " so simple a caveman can do it"? Geico wasn't it?
Does the owner have a couch in his office? Is it worn out from him sleeping on it?


----------



## snowman55

Snowmanbob said:


> What is the employee structure of typical company doing 1 million + in revenues and what are the wages for those employee roles?


Location has everything to do with that.
I would guess operations manager would be $80k likely have 2-3 of those, totally depends on business structure is it all subbed out? Is it all in house? Residential drives or corporate campus ?
Too many variables


----------



## m_ice

Executives-territory and department managers- account managers-crew foreman- crew members
Could be more or less teirs in there???


----------



## Snowmanbob

snowman55 said:


> Location has everything to do with that.
> I would guess operations manager would be $80k likely have 2-3 of those, totally depends on business structure is it all subbed out? Is it all in house? Residential drives or corporate campus ?
> Too many variables


To run a million dollar per year operation how many people would you need if you did it in House?

95% of biz is residential


----------



## Snowmanbob

m_ice said:


> Executives-territory and department managers- account managers-crew foreman- crew members
> Could be more or less teirs in there???


For a biz doing 1 million in sales per year with 3000 customers in one territory, how many of each of above would they need?


----------



## m_ice

Snowmanbob said:


> To run a million dollar per year operation how many people would you need if you did it in House?
> 
> 95% of biz is residential


I know guys in Canada are doing crazy amounts of drives but that just sounds like a pain in the butt


----------



## Snowmanbob

jonniesmooth said:


> Remember the old commercials " so simple a caveman can do it"? Geico wasn't it?
> Does the owner have a couch in his office? Is it worn out from him sleeping on it?


I am told there is management in place that runs the shop. Owner is semi absentee


----------



## snowman55

jonniesmooth said:


> Remember the old commercials " so simple a caveman can do it"? Geico wasn't it?
> Does the owner have a couch in his office? Is it worn out from him sleeping on it?


I do and yes it's slightly worn out


----------



## Snowmanbob

m_ice said:


> I know guys in Canada are doing crazy amounts of drives but that just sounds like a pain in the butt


You prefer more commercial parking lots and such?


----------



## prezek

Not knowing what area you are in, referring back to the employee question, snow is tough. Not only sporadic, but odd hours constantly. For your decent employees it may not be an issue, but getting up in the middle of the night and working for 12, 18, 24? Hours straight in the freezing cold isn’t for everybody to say the least. I can’t imagine how many laborers some guys on this site go through in high snow areas.


----------



## m_ice

Snowmanbob said:


> You prefer more commercial parking lots and such?


3000 drives for my area would be a logistical nightmare. Route density would be everything!


----------



## snowman55

Not my business model but would think alot of resi's would be much easier than what I do

No zero tolerance
lower expectations 
Easier to train operators - repetition 
Strict triggers

However more sales/ customer service and marketing .

3000 drives. That's niege territory I'm not mulch help.


----------



## BossPlow2010

m_ice said:


> 3000 drives for my area would be a logistical nightmare. Route density would be everything!


Imagine if you never plowed snow before and that was thrown on you


----------



## JMHConstruction

I have been in this industry for about a decade now, doing an extremely small scale. I would know (for the most part) what to expect, and if I could be more manager than operator, I would know what what needed to be done. Even knowing that, I don't think I'd be able to manage a 1 mil operation.

The company I sub for is a massive business, that does well over 1 mil. They only have 35 or so people actually on staff. Everyone else is a sub. They have about 10 people in the office, about 5 in the shop, and 20 in the field (doing both fill ins and managing subs). I couldn't even begin to tell you how many subs, maybe 50-75.

I would love the opertunitiy to run a company this size....for about a week...

Employees/subs would be very hard to deal with. However, if your management and office staff are on their game, you could put your trust (and money) in their hands.

For the record, here's my thought on this. I can't cook, so I'm not going to go out and start a restaurant...


----------



## Snowmanbob

snowman55 said:


> Not my business model but would think alot of resi's would be much easier than what I do
> 
> No zero tolerance
> lower expectations
> Easier to train operators - repetition
> Strict triggers
> 
> However more sales/ customer service and marketing .
> 
> 3000 drives. That's niege territory I'm not mulch help.


Actually you and others have been VERY helpful so far. I am able to build a picture at least mentally of things in general.


----------



## Ajlawn1

JMHConstruction said:


> I have been in this industry for about a decade now, doing an extremely small scale. I would know (for the most part) what to expect, and if I could be more manager than operator, I would know what what needed to be done. Even knowing that, I don't think I'd be able to manage a 1 mil operation.
> 
> The company I sub for is a massive business, that does well over 1 mil. They only have 35 or so people actually on staff. Everyone else is a sub. They have about 10 people in the office, about 5 in the shop, and 20 in the field (doing both fill ins and managing subs). I couldn't even begin to tell you how many subs, maybe 50-75.
> 
> I would love the opertunitiy to run a company this size....for about a week...
> 
> Employees/subs would be very hard to deal with. However, if your management and office staff are on their game, you could put your trust (and money) in their hands.
> 
> For the record, here's my thought on this. I can't cook, so I'm not going to go out and start a restaurant...


Unlike what all of you tell your wardens, in this instant size doesn't matter... I am not going to say how much I do in snow but its in this discussion area, but this having all these employees and different levels of managers and all is bs... I have me and 7 full time monkeys of my own in the winter. I have about 15 subs. With the right accounts and a good snowfall year the numbers being thrown out here are not that difficult and can be done... I have about 20 accounts...Have weeded out the bs ones and hustled and kept the zero tolerances and high maintenance ones... Oh yeah and 10 crappy residential drives....


----------



## John_DeereGreen

If this is dealing with a residential drive service, I don't know how much of my thoughts apply here. 

My experience is strictly commercial work. Anywhere from 10k square feet to 40 acres and everything in between. 

I don't know jack about driveway service, and I sure wouldn't jump into a million a year in sales of it, even with the experience I've got in commercial already.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

I have 1 op's manager and 2 zone managers. Covering a 50 mile radius.


----------



## m_ice

Ajlawn1 said:


> Unlike what all of you tell your wardens, in this instant size doesn't matter... I am not going to say how much I do in snow but its in this discussion area, but this having all these employees and different levels of managers and all is bs... I have me and 7 full time monkeys of my own in the winter. I have about 15 subs. With the right accounts and a good snowfall year the numbers being thrown out here are not that difficult and can be done... I have about 20 accounts...Have weeded out the bs ones and hustled and kept the zero tolerances and high maintenance ones... Oh yeah and 10 crappy residential drives....


But could you do 3000 driveways with your current management and sales team?
Just the contracts would be a full time job. 
And I do not disagree with your statement above at all.


----------



## Ajlawn1

John_DeereGreen said:


> I have 1 op's manager and 2 zone managers. Covering a 50 mile radius.


I have me X3


----------



## John_DeereGreen

3000 drives at 2 minutes a drive is 100 hours per round. 5 hours per tractor puts you at 20 tractors. 

I suppose that wouldn't be bad if your operators stayed on year to year, or you only had a couple new ones


----------



## Ajlawn1

m_ice said:


> But could you do 3000 driveways with your current management and sales team?
> Just the contracts would be a full time job.
> And I do not disagree with your statement above at all.





John_DeereGreen said:


> 3000 drives at 2 minutes a drive is 100 hours per round. 5 hours per tractor puts you at 20 tractors.
> 
> I suppose that wouldn't be bad if your operators stayed on year to year, or you only had a couple new ones


No thanks....


----------



## snowman55

Ajlawn1 said:


> Unlike what all of you tell your wardens, in this instant size doesn't matter... I am not going to say how much I do in snow but its in this discussion area, but this having all these employees and different levels of managers and all is bs... I have me and 7 full time monkeys of my own in the winter. I have about 15 subs. With the right accounts and a good snowfall year the numbers being thrown out here are not that difficult and can be done... I have about 20 accounts...Have weeded out the bs ones and hustled and kept the zero tolerances and high maintenance ones... Oh yeah and 10 crappy residential drives....


I have been to south bend several times and will be next month again.
Except for a beautiful college I didn't think there was a million dollars in that town.


----------



## m_ice

John_DeereGreen said:


> 3000 drives at 2 minutes a drive is 100 hours per round. 5 hours per tractor puts you at 20 tractors.
> 
> I suppose that wouldn't be bad if your operators stayed on year to year, or you only had a couple new ones


Don't forget 3000 invoices, 3000 contracts, X% slow pay that your chasing money, etc.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

m_ice said:


> Don't forget 3000 invoices, 3000 contracts, X% slow pay that your chasing money, etc.


I'm not saying I'd do it. But at that size, there should be office staff in place to handle all of that with little to no issue.


----------



## Ajlawn1

snowman55 said:


> I have been to south bend several times and will be next month again.
> Except for a beautiful college I didn't think there was a million dollars in that town.


Yeah IUSB is pretty nice...


----------



## JustJeff

A whole lot of good advice/information in the last four pages for the OP to take in and digest. One more piece of information OP. You do realize that for whatever the selling price of the business is that you're considering, all you're truly guaranteed for that amount, is the equipment he owns, possibly the shop, and a bunch of good sales leads. NONE of his existing customers "automatically" become yours. The minute he sells the business to you, all of his existing contracts are null and void. And just for comparisons sake. I work for a company that "claims" that they do 1.5 million in sales per year (I have no way of knowing if that's the case or not), they own 300 machines, skids, wheel loaders and mini loaders. That doesn't include all of their sidewalk machines, salt trucks etc. What kind of equipment does the company you purpose to buy have? 

Like Ajlawn, they don't have that many employees. Probably 10 full-time (year round) tops. A few subs as well. And this part may help you. The owner of the company has been in business for about 35 years. That's how long it's taken him to get to where he's at now. This is the second year I've worked for this company. I never met the owner at all last year. Not that he doesn't work, but I dealt with his Son. His Son is 26 years old, and has been working for the company for 4 years since getting out of college. He attempted to take over all of the day to day operations of the company this year. He failed miserably. I saw and dealt with the Father a whole lot this year considering I never even met him last year. The kid was completely overwhelmed, and unable to deal with everything that being the operations manager entailed.


----------



## JMHConstruction

Ajlawn1 said:


> Unlike what all of you tell your wardens, in this instant size doesn't matter... I am not going to say how much I do in snow but its in this discussion area, but this having all these employees and different levels of managers and all is bs... I have me and 7 full time monkeys of my own in the winter. I have about 15 subs. With the right accounts and a good snowfall year the numbers being thrown out here are not that difficult and can be done... I have about 20 accounts...Have weeded out the bs ones and hustled and kept the zero tolerances and high maintenance ones... Oh yeah and 10 crappy residential drives....


I don't even know what a "good snow year" is any more:laugh:. The guys I'm talking about are pulling in millions in an area where we haven't had a 3" snowfall in 4 years, and have had less that 10" for the last 3 years.

I'm sure up north where you guys get more snow it's easier, but here you have to have basically all the big contracts in a lot of different cities to see those numbers. Most guys here just do it for a little extra padding, and to keep their employees busy through the winter.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say it's easy in areas that get more snow. That's not the case at all. In the last 5 years, I've only had to pull anything longer than a 24 hour shift once. Then I had 2 weeks before we had anything else. What I'm saying is it's just not quite comparing apples to apples.


----------



## Snowmanbob

JustJeff said:


> A whole lot of good advice/information in the last four pages for the OP to take in and digest. One more piece of information OP. You do realize that for whatever the selling price of the business is that you're considering, all you're truly guaranteed for that amount, is the equipment he owns, possibly the shop, and a bunch of good sales leads. NONE of his existing customers "automatically" become yours. The minute he sells the business to you, all of his existing contracts are null and void. And just for comparisons sake. I work for a company that "claims" that they do 1.5 million in sales per year (I have no way of knowing if that's the case or not), they own 300 machines, skids, wheel loaders and mini loaders. That doesn't include all of their sidewalk machines, salt trucks etc. What kind of equipment does the company you purpose to buy have?
> 
> Like Ajlawn, they don't have that many employees. Probably 10 full-time (year round) tops. A few subs as well. And this part may help you. The owner of the company has been in business for about 35 years. That's how long it's taken him to get to where he's at now. This is the second year I've worked for this company. I never met the owner at all last year. Not that he doesn't work, but I dealt with his Son. His Son is 26 years old, and has been working for the company for 4 years since getting out of college. He attempted to take over all of the day to day operations of the company this year. He failed miserably. I saw and dealt with the Father a whole lot this year considering I never even met him last year. The kid was completely overwhelmed, and unable to deal with everything that being the operations manager entailed.


This is a company. I think the contracts are with the company he owns and not the seller.

Thanks for the numbers and the extra details about the son etc. very helpful.


----------



## JustJeff

The contracts do not go with the company when the company is sold. Granted, it does give you a good leg up as far as re-signing them to you if you buy the business, but that's about it.


----------



## FredG

Very good advice above, You are way ahead of yourself, I can understand not wanting to leave a location but if a broker has it for sale why does it have to be a secret?

Furthermore you have not posted what you are buying? So the business does 1.5 mil in trade is this what your buying? How many years has it been producing these earnings?

Are you getting any real estate? Are you getting any equipment? What is the estimated worth of said real estate? what is the estimated worth of equipment?

You say the Owner is retiring, How do you know he is not going to open up other another name? Meaning his Wife or children name? Are you going to hand this fella your life savings? Is he financing the purchase?

Is your credit good? Can you obtain reasonable liabilities? How do you know one of his long time employee's that knows his clients are not waiting for him to leave and take over his clients? How do you know his clients will stay with you after the sale?

How do you know the estimated earnings are correct? How does this company earn money in the summer months? You say you have no experience moving snow, Do you have any experience with something related? Meaning Landscaping, Construction etc,

You say how long will it take me to learn the business? Who knows I been moving snow since 1977 and still learning. You say most of the business is residential, That's a lot of earnings for plowing driveways.

Technically in a plowman's mine driveway trade is worthless because you have no guarantee the clients will stay with you. If he has 3 year contracts we could be something a little different.

I'm thinking you came to the right place for advice but your not leaving enough info for anybody to give you some real opinions. Good Luck


----------



## m_ice

JustJeff said:


> The contracts do not go with the company when the company is sold. Granted, it does give you a good leg up as far as re-signing them to you if you buy the business, but that's about it.


Depending on how the verbage is in the contracts they could still be valid. But it is still good advise for what to look into.

I.e. when AT&T bought Direct tv all the direct tv contracts were still valid.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Snowmanbob said:


> Is it 6 months, 1 year, 2 years?
> 
> Can you quantify?


To really learn the business? Minimum of 3 years.

To learn the industry???? 10 years


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Snowmanbob said:


> Retirement.
> 
> Why is it hard to hire good employees?
> Is the pay not good enough? Any other reason?


Oi vey...this is getting worse as posts continue. If you don't know the answer to this, you have no idea about running any business in this climate, much less a snow and ice management company.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

m_ice said:


> Don't forget 3000 invoices, 3000 contracts, X% slow pay that your chasing money, etc.


Not if it's setup correctly. Possibly the invoices\contracts. Our resi's get an estimate with payment upon acceptance. No pay, no plow.


----------



## Ajlawn1

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not if it's setup correctly. Possibly the invoices\contracts. Our resi's get an estimate with payment upon acceptance. No pay, no plow.


What! You get paid before any service!


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Ajlawn1 said:


> What! You get paid before any service!


Yes


----------



## Randall Ave

the Suburbanite said:


> I'm starting to wonder if this is a troll thread


I thought this last night. I'm keeping my opinions to myself, I'm out.


----------



## Ajlawn1

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes


Omg people are going to flip out on here...


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes


This use to be the case, All these :terribletowel:in jail around here for collecting the money and disappearing it is hard to do.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

I'm not sure I'd want 3000 driveways unless they were all prepaid.


----------



## Mike_PS

let's allow the thread to play out and offer opinions, etc. before jumping on and saying "troll" or whatever


----------



## JustJeff

Michael J. Donovan said:


> let's allow the thread to play out and offer opinions, etc. before jumping on and saying "troll" or whatever


You tell 'em MJD. Go ahead and take a break for awhile now, I'll keep an eye on the kids!


----------



## JustJeff

On a serious note though, I think the OP has been given a lot of constructive advice, factoring in how many times most of us have seen these exact same posts. I think the guys have been very patient and are trying to be helpful.


----------



## Mike_PS

alright, let's try to stay on track and assist the OP with the question(s) and discussion at hand

thanks :waving:


----------



## Snowmanbob

Thanks for input guys. Its very helpful. Please keep them coming. I am outside will process it all and answer any qyestions directed to me when I get back to my computer later.


----------



## Snowmanbob

Michael J. Donovan said:


> alright, let's try to stay on track and assist the OP with the question(s) and discussion at hand
> 
> thanks :waving:


Thank you Michael.


----------



## Mike_PS

guy's, its really not that hard to comprehend what I'm saying...either contribute or move on. we don't need popcorn images or anything else to stir the pot


----------



## Snowmanbob

JustJeff said:


> The contracts do not go with the company when the company is sold. Granted, it does give you a good leg up as far as re-signing them to you if you buy the business, but that's about it.


Thats great to know.

I assumed that the contracts are signed with the company and whoever owns the company gets the contracts. I didnt think the customers would know or care who the owner of the company is.

But I will remember this point.


----------



## Snowmanbob

Mark Oomkes said:


> To really learn the business? Minimum of 3 years.
> 
> To learn the industry???? 10 years


In your opinion, what are the top 5 things that one should learn about the business?

What are the top 5 things that one should learn about the industry?


----------



## Snowmanbob

FredG said:


> Very good advice above, You are way ahead of yourself, I can understand not wanting to leave a location but if a broker has it for sale why does it have to be a secret?
> 
> Furthermore you have not posted what you are buying? So the business does 1.5 mil in trade is this what your buying? How many years has it been producing these earnings?
> 
> Are you getting any real estate? Are you getting any equipment? What is the estimated worth of said real estate? what is the estimated worth of equipment?
> 
> You say the Owner is retiring, How do you know he is not going to open up other another name? Meaning his Wife or children name? Are you going to hand this fella your life savings? Is he financing the purchase?
> 
> Is your credit good? Can you obtain reasonable liabilities? How do you know one of his long time employee's that knows his clients are not waiting for him to leave and take over his clients? How do you know his clients will stay with you after the sale?
> 
> How do you know the estimated earnings are correct? How does this company earn money in the summer months? You say you have no experience moving snow, Do you have any experience with something related? Meaning Landscaping, Construction etc,
> 
> You say how long will it take me to learn the business? Who knows I been moving snow since 1977 and still learning. You say most of the business is residential, That's a lot of earnings for plowing driveways.
> 
> Technically in a plowman's mine driveway trade is worthless because you have no guarantee the clients will stay with you. If he has 3 year contracts we could be something a little different.
> 
> I'm thinking you came to the right place for advice but your not leaving enough info for anybody to give you some real opinions. Good Luck


The challenge with disclosing the location is the broker has signed confidentiality agreement not to reveal any identifiable info. Generally the sellers dont want to publicize their selling to avoid the staff freaking out and quitting, avoid customers from jumping ship etc. Also avoid competition from taking advantage of the situation either by poaching customers, staff or any other way.

Furthermore you have not posted what you are buying? So the business does 1.5 mil in trade is this what your buying?

Ans: I am buying the business and the customers/good will associated with it.

How many years has it been producing these earnings?
Ans: I am yet to receive financials. But the business has been around for 20+ years.

Are you getting any real estate?
No

Are you getting any equipment?
Ans: Equipment will be leased to me.

What is the estimated worth of said real estate? what is the estimated worth of equipment?
Ans: Don't know. I real estate is rental.

You say the Owner is retiring, How do you know he is not going to open up other another name? Meaning his Wife or children name?
Ans: Generally there is non compete to ensure owner doesnt compete with you. But you make a great point about owner going out and opening another shop.

Are you going to hand this fella your life savings? Is he financing the purchase?

Ans: yea. 25% of it.

Is your credit good? Can you obtain reasonable liabilities?

Ans: yes. it is good.

How do you know one of his long time employee's that knows his clients are not waiting for him to leave and take over his clients?
Ans: He claims to have 3000 customers. I dont know if individual employees can steal that many clients and make it work.

How do you know his clients will stay with you after the sale?
Ans: I assumed since they deal with the company and not with the owner directly, they will not be aware of the sale nor will they care. So it will be business as usual, as far as they are concerned, as I long I dont drop the ball on my service and piss them off.

How do you know the estimated earnings are correct?
Ans: I will get a financial review done during the due diligence phase. Right now I am just taking their word.

How does this company earn money in the summer months?
Ans: I dont they do. They only operate in the winter.

You say you have no experience moving snow, Do you have any experience with something related? Meaning Landscaping, Construction etc,

Ans: I dont have any experience. I figured I can handle the business side of things and managing/scheduling the employees for the jobs. The business currently does have full time management in place. But I also want to ensure that I am not solely relying on them alone.


----------



## Snowmanbob

m_ice said:


> Depending on how the verbage is in the contracts they could still be valid. But it is still good advise for what to look into.
> 
> I.e. when AT&T bought Direct tv all the direct tv contracts were still valid.


I agree. It is something I will look into.


----------



## FredG

Snowmanbob said:


> The challenge with location is the broker has signed confidentiality agreement not to reveal any identifiable info. Generally the sellers dont want to publicize their selling to avoid the staff freaking out and quitting, avoid customers from jumping ship etc. Also avoid competition from taking advantage of the situation either by poaching customers, staff or any other way.
> 
> Furthermore you have not posted what you are buying? So the business does 1.5 mil in trade is this what your buying?
> 
> Ans: I am buying the business and the customers/good will associated with it.
> 
> How many years has it been producing these earnings?
> Ans: I am yet to receive financials. But the business has been around for 20+ years.
> 
> Are you getting any real estate?
> No
> 
> Are you getting any equipment?
> Ans: Equipment will be leased to me.
> 
> What is the estimated worth of said real estate? what is the estimated worth of equipment?
> Ans: Don't know. I real estate is rental.
> 
> You say the Owner is retiring, How do you know he is not going to open up other another name? Meaning his Wife or children name?
> Ans: Generally there is non compete to ensure owner doesnt compete with you. But you make a great point about owner going out and opening another shop.
> 
> Are you going to hand this fella your life savings? Is he financing the purchase?
> 
> Ans: yea. 25% of it.
> 
> Is your credit good? Can you obtain reasonable liabilities?
> 
> Ans: yes. it is good.
> 
> How do you know one of his long time employee's that knows his clients are not waiting for him to leave and take over his clients?
> Ans: He claims to have 3000 customers. I dont know if individual employees can steal that many clients and make it work.
> 
> How do you know his clients will stay with you after the sale?
> Ans: I assumed since they deal with the company and not with the owner directly, they will not be aware of the sale nor will they care. So it will be business as usual, as far as they are concerned, as I long I dont drop the ball on my service and piss them off.
> 
> How do you know the estimated earnings are correct?
> Ans: I will get a financial review done during the due diligence phase. Right now I am just taking their word.
> 
> How does this company earn money in the summer months?
> Ans: I dont they do. They only operate in the winter.
> 
> You say you have no experience moving snow, Do you have any experience with something related? Meaning Landscaping, Construction etc,
> 
> Ans: I dont have any experience. I figured I can handle the business side of things and managing/scheduling the employees for the jobs. The business currently does have full time management in place. But I also want to ensure that I am not solely relying on them alone.


So you are just buying his clients.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Snowmanbob said:


> In your opinion, what are the top 5 things that one should learn about the business?
> 
> What are the top 5 things that one should learn about the industry?


Good questions...let me think about it.


----------



## JustJeff

So, you're buying a "business", but not a shop or land, the equipment you still have to lease, and you don't have any guaranteed contracts. How does this business venture sound to you now?


----------



## JustJeff

And by the way, yes, you can lease a tractor (if in fact that's what they're doing the driveways with), but I don't see you leasing a plow truck and being able to return it afterwards, and I don't think you can lease the blowers or blades for the tractors either.


----------



## Snowmanbob

JustJeff said:


> And by the way, yes, you can lease a tractor (if in fact that's what they're doing the driveways with), but I don't see you leasing a plow truck and being able to return it afterwards, and I don't think you can lease the blowers or blades for the tractors either.


I think it would be a lease or rent to own type of arrangement.


----------



## Snowmanbob

JustJeff said:


> And by the way, yes, you can lease a tractor (if in fact that's what they're doing the driveways with), but I don't see you leasing a plow truck and being able to return it afterwards, and I don't think you can lease the blowers or blades for the tractors either.


It would be rent to own type arrangement I think.
I don't have numbers on them yet. So will need to see how the numbers work out.

Lot of businesses rent property so I don't see huge issue.

I think my only concern is how much will the biz make after all expenses and if I am happy with that profit for the effort required and if I can continue to maintain those profits and grow once I take over.


----------



## FredG

3000 driveways I sure hope there is a bunch of tractors with inverted in this lease program, If the Seller is retiring why would he want to keep the equipment and real estate.

JMO something don't sound right, You better let a accountant and a attorney look at things carefully. This guy will be having a lot of your money coming his way and you will end up with nothing in the end.


----------



## Snowmanbob

FredG said:


> 3000 driveways I sure hope there is a bunch of tractors with inverted in this lease program, If the Seller is retiring why would he want to keep the equipment and real estate.
> 
> JMO something don't sound right, You better let a accountant and a attorney look at things carefully. This guy will be having a lot of your money coming his way and you will end up with nothing in the end.


I hear you. Which is why I am researching before I even start taking any steps. The tractors and equipment will probably be rent to own arrangement so that the new owner doesn' need a huge capital outlay right off the start. I think real estate would be similar deal.

In your opinion, how many employees and tractors or other equipment do you think an operation like this would need?


----------



## BossPlow2010

Snowmanbob said:


> I hear you. Which is why I am researching before I even start taking any steps. The tractors and equipment will probably be rent to own arrangement so that the new owner doesn' need a huge capital outlay right off the start. I think real estate would be similar deal.
> 
> In your opinion, how many employees and tractors or other equipment do you think an operation like this would need?


Dood, why don't you go outside and shovel your driveway and see on how it takes.
Or plow it, or pay someone to do it, then multiply that by 3000
Then add a minute or two for drive time and figure out how many people you need to be efficient.


----------



## FredG

Snowmanbob said:


> I hear you. Which is why I am researching before I even start taking any steps. The tractors and equipment will probably be rent to own arrangement so that the new owner doesn' need a huge capital outlay right off the start. I think real estate would be similar deal.


Yes you want the equipment and real estate in the deal even if it is lease to own. Again remember if you commit your holidays could be lost with your Family. Do you have any leadership skills?


----------



## FredG

You need to post a list of equipment that comes with the purchase, For all you know you may not have what you need to perform the services.


----------



## Snowmanbob

FredG said:


> You need to post a list of equipment that comes with the purchase, For all you know you may not have what you need to perform the services.


Great point. I will do that if I do get to that stage. Thank you!


----------



## Snowmanbob

FredG said:


> Yes you want the equipment and real estate in the deal even if it is lease to own. Again remember if you commit your holidays could be lost with your Family. Do you have any leadership skills?


The seller has management in place so he doesnt work all the time. The holidays may not apply to me. But if need be, I a open to it. Although would not be ideal. I would say yes for leadership skills.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Snowmanbob said:


> In your opinion, what are the top 5 things that one should learn about the business?
> 
> What are the top 5 things that one should learn about the industry?


Probably shouldn't number them. This isn't really in any particular order.

#1 Have backups to your backups.

#2 There is always some idiot that thinks he can get rich quick by undercharging. Not saying you are this guy, stating this is a fact in this business because if someone has a truck and a plow, they are ready to take on WalMart.

#3 I know you say there are managers, but be prepared to place your life on hold, if nothing else while you are learning the business. Your life revolves around the weather and as time goes on, weather predictions get worse. You will miss holidays, birthday parties.

#4 Be prepared for anything and everything weather wise.

#5 Be prepared to live on very little sleep, despite having managers.

I'll keep thinking on it. Not sure where these fall under business vs industry related either. The line is blurred.

#6 The weather waits for no man.

# 7 A lot (I almost said most) customers don't understand snow removal. They think they should be the first one done if it stops snowing or the last one done if it hasn't stopped. They think they are your one and only customer and you have to do your best to make them feel that way.

#8 You can't make everyone happy.


----------



## Mr.Markus

#3 ...I"ve been trying to miss my own birthdays and its not working...


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Mr.Markus said:


> #3 ...I"ve been trying to miss my own birthdays and its not working...


This year was the first in many I didn't have to work...not sure what my dad was thinking...born on January 18.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Mark Oomkes said:


> This year was the first in many I didn't have to work...not sure what my dad was thinking...born on January 18.


Kind of like being born May 15 and growing up farming. And then starting a landscape company.


----------



## Ajlawn1

Mark Oomkes said:


> This year was the first in many I didn't have to work...not sure what my dad was thinking...born on January 18.


He got done with the snow season in April and said mamma get over here time to make us a lil Oomkes.....


----------



## Mark Oomkes

#9 Not only do you have to be somewhat concerned with the guy who has a pickup and a plow, you have to worry about the big players who have built a large company and then have to keep their equipment working so they too will bid work low in the hopes of making it up in volume.

#10 Might not be an issue for resi work...national service providers.


----------



## Mr.Markus

Mark Oomkes said:


> This year was the first in many I didn't have to work...not sure what my dad was thinking...born on January 18.


My parents had a rutting season, my older sister was born Jan 30, my older brother Feb 4 and me 11 months later Jan 26...


----------



## EWSplow

Mr.Markus said:


> My parents had a rutting season, my older sister was born Jan 30, my older brother Feb 4 and me 11 months later Jan 26...


I think you qualify as Irish triplets


----------



## BUFF

When buying a biz when the seller owns the building it's not uncommon for the seller to tie a lease agreement for the property into the deal. I know several people that have sold and a 5yr lease seems to be the norm.
Since this biz is weather dependent when you review the financials also look at the snowfall for those years too. If possible go back at least 5years and further back would be better. You'll be able to see trends this way.


----------



## Snowmanbob

Mark Oomkes said:


> Probably shouldn't number them. This isn't really in any particular order.
> 
> #1 Have backups to your backups.
> 
> #2 There is always some idiot that thinks he can get rich quick by undercharging. Not saying you are this guy, stating this is a fact in this business because if someone has a truck and a plow, they are ready to take on WalMart.
> 
> #3 I know you say there are managers, but be prepared to place your life on hold, if nothing else while you are learning the business. Your life revolves around the weather and as time goes on, weather predictions get worse. You will miss holidays, birthday parties.
> 
> #4 Be prepared for anything and everything weather wise.
> 
> #5 Be prepared to live on very little sleep, despite having managers.
> 
> I'll keep thinking on it. Not sure where these fall under business vs industry related either. The line is blurred.
> 
> #6 The weather waits for no man.
> 
> # 7 A lot (I almost said most) customers don't understand snow removal. They think they should be the first one done if it stops snowing or the last one done if it hasn't stopped. They think they are your one and only customer and you have to do your best to make them feel that way.
> 
> #8 You can't make everyone happy.


Good stuff! Thank you.


----------



## JMHConstruction

You could practice..

Every night, set your alarm to go off around 2am, then do something that stresses you out for about 15 hours. Take a nap, then have someone call your phone repeatedly while you try to sleep. Eventually get up after a failed attempt at said nap, and do that stressful thing all over again. Then try to do a bunch of paperwork, work on your vehicle, and talk on the phone at the same time. After that you can get some sleep, just in time to do it again the next night. Repeat, and you'll have an idea.:laugh:


----------



## JMHConstruction

On a serious note though, I would look at the staff about as hard as I'd look at numbers. See who's been around for a long time. If the owner isn't around much, see who as taken over the day to day operations. See how your work ethic clashes with theirs. I'd want to make sure they have great communication with me, and that we could easily get along.

I would want a great shop mechanic or two, that knows your equipment inside and out. With that many residentials, you will have to keep your equipment in tip top shape (although that won't always work out like that).

Organization will be key. If they're doing this many customers, I'm assuming their pretty organized. Make sure the office staff communicates well, and keeps things tidy. Make sure your staff knows exactly what needs to be done before the snow starts falling, so when it does you'll be as prepared as you can.


----------



## Snowmanbob

JMHConstruction said:


> You could practice..
> 
> Every night, set your alarm to go off around 2am, then do something that stresses you out for about 15 hours. Take a nap, then have someone call your phone repeatedly while you try to sleep. Eventually get up after a failed attempt at said nap, and do that stressful thing all over again. Then try to do a bunch of paperwork, work on your vehicle, and talk on the phone at the same time. After that you can get some sleep, just in time to do it again the next night. Repeat, and you'll have an idea.:laugh:


lol!


----------



## Luther

Snowmanbob said:


> I am doing my research right now. I don't
> understand how does asking a question equate to me being over my head.


 Because you have no knowledge or experience in the industry. A typical 1m snow and ice management business with a healthy mix of clients will gobble you up for sure without solid relationships, experience or knowledge.

However, in your case you may not need to have an understanding of the industry to be successful. This model/scenario eliminates the pitfalls most of us deal with.

You won't have the stress and pressure of landing a six-figure site. What a pleasure to never have to negotiate. What a pleasure to never have to sign someone else's one sided contract to land business. What a pleasure to never have to worry about freezing rain, icing events, melt and refreeze, any and all accumulations less than your 2 inch trigger.

Once July and August come you'll have no need to procure your deicing material for the upcoming winter. All of your contracts are the same and very simple. Worded right you have very little liability. No crazy reporting requirements. This niche would be a dream for most of us.


----------



## Freshwater

Luther said:


> Because you have no knowledge or experience in the industry. A typical 1m snow and ice management business with a healthy mix of clients will gobble you up for sure without solid relationships, experience or knowledge.
> 
> However, in your case you may not need to have an understanding of the industry to be successful. This model/scenario eliminates the pitfalls most of us deal with.
> 
> You won't have the stress and pressure of landing a six-figure site. What a pleasure to never have to negotiate. What a pleasure to never have to sign someone else's one sided contract to land business. What a pleasure to never have to worry about freezing rain, icing events, melt and refreeze, any and all accumulations less than your 2 inch trigger.
> 
> Once July and August come you'll have no need to procure your deicing material for the upcoming winter. All of your contracts are the same and very simple. Worded right you have very little liability. No crazy reporting requirements. This niche would be a dream for most of us.


It would be a dream.... until you actually had to plow 3000 drives.


----------



## Freshwater

I'd be real careful with this. We have a couple outfit out here that do big driveway numbers, but they'e basically a scam. They're all seasonal contracts, that are worded perfect, and they have fantastic marketing. Problem is they have very little equipment of their own or overhead. They use subs from craigslist and are slow to pay them. They show up to plow but there very slow and late getting there, even on the light snowfalls. When a big snow hits it's a nightmare for their customers. They have high turnover with customers.
You might only get half of the 3000 to stay if they'e mad.

This is a different model than the company that doesn't show up at all.


----------



## On a Call

Snowmanbob said:


> Is it 6 months, 1 year, 2 years?
> 
> Can you quantify?


Life time


----------



## Mr.Markus

I also read that marketing and re marketing driveways is timing and price. If you market at $500/season the next guy only has to market a few dollars cheaper and you're gone...printing up and delivering your flyers better be spot on or you could see yourself done in an instant. Welcome to the race...


----------



## Freshwater

Mr.Markus said:


> I also read that marketing and re marketing driveways is timing and price. If you market at $500/season the next guy only has to market a few dollars cheaper and you're gone...printing up and delivering your flyers better be spot on or you could see yourself done in an instant. Welcome to the race...


So here's the model....
They flyer whole neighbrhoods with flyers from 5 different companys.. but its' all the same company. 5 different phone lines and different people answering the phone... Same office. So when people get mad they call a different flyer next year.... same company. Take forever to plow, screw a couple subs out of money every year and claim 1mil gross.


----------



## Snowmanbob

Luther said:


> Because you have no knowledge or experience in the industry. A typical 1m snow and ice management business with a healthy mix of clients will gobble you up for sure without solid relationships, experience or knowledge.
> 
> However, in your case you may not need to have an understanding of the industry to be successful. This model/scenario eliminates the pitfalls most of us deal with.
> 
> You won't have the stress and pressure of landing a six-figure site. What a pleasure to never have to negotiate. What a pleasure to never have to sign someone else's one sided contract to land business. What a pleasure to never have to worry about freezing rain, icing events, melt and refreeze, any and all accumulations less than your 2 inch trigger.
> 
> Once July and August come you'll have no need to procure your deicing material for the upcoming winter. All of your contracts are the same and very simple. Worded right you have very little liability. No crazy reporting requirements. This niche would be a dream for most of us.


Thank you for your input. Its great to get wide range of opinions on the matter.

Can you please elaborate on your statement about relationships, experience, knowledge...

1. relationships - with whom
2. experience - with what tasks specifically
3. knowledge - of what tasks specifically

Cheers


----------



## Snowmanbob

Freshwater said:


> I'd be real careful with this. We have a couple outfit out here that do big driveway numbers, but they'e basically a scam. They're all seasonal contracts, that are worded perfect, and they have fantastic marketing. Problem is they have very little equipment of their own or overhead. They use subs from craigslist and are slow to pay them. They show up to plow but there very slow and late getting there, even on the light snowfalls. When a big snow hits it's a nightmare for their customers. They have high turnover with customers.
> You might only get half of the 3000 to stay if they'e mad.
> 
> This is a different model than the company that doesn't show up at all.


I think you have made some valid points on the residential industry. But I also think it would be unrealistic for customers to expect quick service during storms.

I will take a closer look at the employees, equipment used and use of subs etc.


----------



## Philbilly2

Snowmanbob said:


> I think you have made some valid points on the residential industry. But I also think it would be unrealistic for customers to expect quick service during storms.
> 
> I will take a closer look at the employees, equipment used and use of subs etc.


As unrealistic as it may seem, it is in fact a reality...


----------



## Snowmanbob

Philbilly2 said:


> As unrealistic as it may seem, it is in fact a reality...


Yup you are right. Cant dispute that


----------



## JustJeff

Snowmanbob said:


> Yup you are right. Cant dispute that


But I also think it would be unrealistic for customers to expect quick service during storms.

Well, which one is it?


----------



## Snowmanbob

JustJeff said:


> But I also think it would be unrealistic for customers to expect quick service during storms.
> 
> Well, which one is it?


??

I dont follow your question..


----------



## Mike_PS

closing this as you started another thread, which is pretty much the same...so, for future reference, NO need to start multiple threads on the same topic

thanks


----------

