# Why work for National's?



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

There is a never ending list of horror stories working for nationals.

Endless complaint how the nationals have ruined the business with their low ball pricing.

Yet there are still people here that work for them still.

I do not understand how people work for the nationals.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

I will not.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Because if you play by their rules 9/10 you won't have problems. It depends on your area as well as to whether or not it is national dominated


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Without giving my personal opinion if I like or don't like,
Many of the complaints relate to not following their rules and procedures.
In my area, the numbers aren't that bad. You just need to take 10 pictures, 6 signature sheets, 4 door stickers and 12 phone call ins. 
Think of it this way: they sell, you don't! Otherwise, you sell and don't need/work for them.


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## Glenn Lawn Care (Sep 28, 2009)

I will not work for a national company. In November I was ask if I was interested in taking care of 2 Lowe's (just plowing) by a company that was hired by brickman to do them. I passed on the opportunity know the worst could happen when dealing with 2 other companies.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

That brings up another point. Subbing for a sub. I have one I can't seem to shake. I will never do this again either. I did it as favor because they did not have any other accounts close. Next time I will just say I will take only if i work for the owner not as a sub.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

Why?

How about because they have every chain store, restaurant, bank and who knows what else.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Italiano67;1706065 said:


> Why?
> 
> How about because they have every chain store, restaurant, bank and who knows what else.


Every time someone works for them they are kept in business. If you do not want them in business then do not work for them.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

32vld;1706794 said:


> Every time someone works for them they are kept in business. If you do not want them in business then do not work for them.


That is true

I cant say I wont since I just got a contact from them. They had to go with my price wasn't nobody else out there that would do the job. 
This time the little people won I hope LOL


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

32vld;1706794 said:


> Every time someone works for them they are kept in business. If you do not want them in business then do not work for them.


But if you won't 10 other people will. Nat's are here to stay. Play by their rules you won't have a problem


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## maelawncare (Mar 4, 2004)

Whiffyspark;1706922 said:


> But if you won't 10 other people will. Nat's are here to stay. Play by their rules you won't have a problem


Yup. And more keep popping up. Ferdinando just came into our area with walgreens. First time i've seen them in the MO.

I work for brickman and divisions. Brickman isn't bad, but lot of hoops. The pay for the lowes is actually good. Make $120/hr per truck of it. Divisions is awesome to work for. I've dealt with 5 nationals and they are the best. Plus they pay the best.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

I don't understand why 32vld cares? Do you or have you worked for them? They're like any other customer, if they don't like my price someone else will, pretty simple IMHO ........


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

There's another thread from today with the best answer that I think needs it's own sticky..

" snowbrothers101 

Senior Member
Location: Missoula, MT

Sometimes these threads crack me up. We shop at "nationals" like Home Depot or Best Buy, we eat at Nationals like Outback or Olive Garden, we buy are phone service from Nationals like Verizon or AT&T. Home Depot doesn't sell Johnny local's brand of mower. THey said a national distributor. Our plows our national brands. Bank of America uses a national from verything from real estate management to pest control to janitorial to snow and land. As does almost every other company. Energy management, HVAC, all the same.

It's like leaning out of your truck and shaking your fist screaming "screw the man". Our entire economy is built around this model. You can keep complaining but your fight is against the entire system of how we live, not some maintenance company that consolidated snow.

Happy New Year" 













Page generated in 0.00929 seconds with 9 queries


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## daddy daniels' (Jan 4, 2014)

maxwellp;1705998 said:


> That brings up another point. Subbing for a sub. I have one I can't seem to shake. I will never do this again either. I did it as favor because they did not have any other accounts close. Next time I will just say I will take only if i work for the owner not as a sub.


I don't see where the sub can afford to pay you. Being a sub traditionally means a high wage and enough to cover expenses, and the contractor keeps the profits.


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## daddy daniels' (Jan 4, 2014)

A person would want to work for a national if they have supurb administrative skills and understand that they are a sub, traditionally meaning that they are to make a high wage, receive enough to cover expenses and the contractor keeps the profits.


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## maelawncare (Mar 4, 2004)

daddy daniels';1707877 said:


> I don't see where the sub can afford to pay you. Being a sub traditionally means a high wage and enough to cover expenses, and the contractor keeps the profits.


I actually have a few subs that work for me. They get paid $60 an hour. I bill $120. Works out dam good for me.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Antlerart06;1706911 said:


> That is true
> 
> I cant say I wont since I just got a contact from them. They had to go with my price wasn't nobody else out there that would do the job.
> This time the little people won I hope LOL


Not mad at you but I have to point out that if you did not work for them they would lose that account. Enough accounts lost they are out of business.

You just saved their bacon.

If the nationals could not fulfill their contracts the big corps would stop doing business with them.

Think about this: if they met your price they are still making money.

This indicates that your prices are too low.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

jrs.landscaping;1707824 said:


> I don't understand why 32vld cares? Do you or have you worked for them? They're like any other customer, if they don't like my price someone else will, pretty simple IMHO ........


I do not work for a national. Have not worked for a national.

One of the first things I read on PS are the members that start a thread on how they got hosed by a national. Then it draws posts where other peoples add to how that national hosed them as well. Along with if think that national was bad thank god you did not work for that other national.

Next message that was hammered home on PS was the threads about how low balling hurts the industry. Working for nationals brings down prices. Low balling.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

32vld;1708795 said:


> Not mad at you but I have to point out that if you did not work for them they would lose that account. Enough accounts lost they are out of business.
> 
> You just saved their bacon.
> 
> ...


False. Very false

Nationals have entire national chains. There will always be someone willing to step in.

Their prices are not the problem. People sceew up the paper work or can't follow simple instructions. That is the problem.

Heck one national we were for provides unlimited pusher boxes and ice melt


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Mr.Markus;1707841 said:


> Sometimes these threads crack me up. We shop at "nationals" like Home Depot or Best Buy, we eat at Nationals like Outback or Olive Garden, we buy are phone service from Nationals like Verizon or AT&T. Home Depot doesn't sell Johnny local's brand of mower. THey said a national distributor. Our plows our national brands. Bank of America uses a national from verything from real estate management to pest control to janitorial to snow and land. As does almost every other company. Energy management, HVAC, all the same.


Home depot has put their money where there mouth is. They bought land, built stores, hire employees. They are doing what mom and pop store does. Only on a larger scale.

Outback, Olive Garden same as Home Depot.

National maintenance companies, do not pay construction companies to build shops and yards and fill them with equipment and employees and send them out to service customers.

Home Depot, Outback, etc, do.

All the nationals do is get the full price for work to be performed. Pay their subcontractors way less then the historical prevailing rates.

Then on top of that the sub has to carry the insurance risk for slip and falls and let the national and the corps, and the owner of the malls, off the hook.


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## Grizzleyadam (Oct 12, 2011)

Working for a larger contractor was not a problem for me. I started low for my standard and provide my own insurance. Low is 70hr for me. Here is the thing. I did my work well and backed up those who didn't do theirs. I didn't smoke a half pack in between lots and worked quickly but was never hard on my truck in any way. I name my price now. They ask me how much I want to plow for them. I make my money without being greedy and they make theirs. Simple as that. When it snows I have all the work I can handle and then some. They will recognize a sub that makes them money and do whatever it takes to keep them. Also, I make sure when I do a lot those clients meet ME. They ask for me. Regardless of who I sub for or whatever high profile lot I'm doing. I don't get "hosed" either way. I get a raise.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Grizzleyadam;1708951 said:


> Working for a larger contractor was not a problem for me. I started low for my standard and provide my own insurance. Low is 70hr for me. Here is the thing. I did my work well and backed up those who didn't do theirs. I didn't smoke a half pack in between lots and worked quickly but was never hard on my truck in any way. I name my price now. They ask me how much I want to plow for them. I make my money without being greedy and they make theirs. Simple as that. When it snows I have all the work I can handle and then some. They will recognize a sub that makes them money and do whatever it takes to keep them. Also, I make sure when I do a lot those clients meet ME. They ask for me. Regardless of who I sub for or whatever high profile lot I'm doing. I don't get "hosed" either way. I get a raise.


Subbing for a snow removal contractor that has more work then equipment is not the same as working for a national maintenance company.

It helps the contractor add more work when there is not enough work for him to go out and buy another truck.

Good for the new guy starting out that does not have many customers.


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## luky013 (Dec 31, 2009)

The Nationals are not the problem. WE are the problem. We allow them to low ball. If guys would understand their costs to plow snow and stick to their pricing and not meet their pricing it would not be a problem. The little guys/subs have got to be willing to walk away from an account if the pricing is to low.

I do not like working for the nationals, I would rather hold my own accounts. But if they call I will always look at the property and give them my pricing. I am not going to turn my nose at an opportunity to make money. I rarely get the account because someone usually meets their pricing. But sometimes I do get them and I have made some really good money from them.

NEVER pass up an opportunity to make money. STICK TO YOUR PRICING!


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

We all know these threads never turn out good... Lots of spaghetti getting tossed around the room right now. I would think its hard for guys to give opinions on something unless they have tried it. While forums give great advice (i.e. Switching to snowblowing service) it's not the gospel. 
Prices vary for different regions, working as a prime versus sub, cost structure of company, etc. etc. etc.
In my market it's the one truck resi guy who lowered or kept the price from going up for driveways, not the nationals. 
Why would a large chain want to waste the time of their store manager vetting out snow removal companies to clear his lot? As a good friend shared with me: "do you think the purchasing guy knows what a Deere 444k is"?


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

Mr.Markus;1707841 said:


> There's another thread from today with the best answer that I think needs it's own sticky..
> 
> " snowbrothers101
> 
> ...


I found that the examples are like apples to oranges. Poor examples. This one especially. "Our plows our national brands" hahahahahaha


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## Grizzleyadam (Oct 12, 2011)

While not national my contractor is very large regionally and does everything the nationals do including melt snow and haul offs. My original statement stands. Basically do great work, efficiently, take care of your crap and name your price. There are more then enough crap plowers to go around and good ones are not the easiest to come by, especially subs. I make damn good money now without the expense of holding the clients or the most expensive time consuming parts of the business.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

ALC-GregH;1709434 said:


> I found that the examples are like apples to oranges. Poor examples. This one especially. "Our plows our national brands" hahahahahaha


Exactly Home Depot, Olive Garden, spend money to put up buildings, equip them, hire employees, and provide the service.

National maintenance companies do none of that.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Grizzleyadam;1710536 said:


> While not national my contractor is very large regionally and does everything the nationals do including melt snow and haul offs. My original statement stands. Basically do great work, efficiently, take care of your crap and name your price. There are more then enough crap plowers to go around and good ones are not the easiest to come by, especially subs. I make damn good money now without the expense of holding the clients or the most expensive time consuming parts of the business.


What you are doing is not what the original topic was about.

You are working for a contractor. A real contractor that has a real business. The size of the contractor that you work for. Whether small, medium, large, local, state, regional, or they operate in all 50 states, does not matter. Your contractor that you sub for has his own accounts, facility, equipment, employees, and subcontractors (this is where you come in).

You get treated well.

The National Maintenance Management Companies are businesses that only have cubicle farms and phones.

The National Maintenance Management Companies are not contractors.

When I first joined Lawsite and Plowsite. One of the first thing I learned was from more threads then I can remember how the National's shafted so many hard working members here on PS. When I first came here there seemed to be an endless posts to endless threads about USM.

As time went by all I saw was the same pattern with threads dealing with other National Maintenance Companies shafting other members here.

I am smart enough to see enough threads and posts that I do not have to work for a National to find out for my self.

Same with low balling. I do not have to work for low ball prices to know that low balling hurts this industry.


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## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

NorthwestPlower1;1711596 said:


> I told Ferrandino I didn't like what I read on the internet about them and not to send me anymore bids or even bother calling.


How did that go..?


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## Moose's Mowing (Oct 6, 2012)

USM called me tonight. I'm in the big leagues now!!!!!!! (I declined their offer)


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Has anything new come out of this thread? No.... I didn't think so either.
Isn't there enough posts that complain about nationals?


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## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

Moose's Mowing;1712203 said:


> USM called me tonight. I'm in the big leagues now!!!!!!! (I declined their offer)


Tell me more


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## Moose's Mowing (Oct 6, 2012)

Me: Hello?
Lady: Oh, hi, I didn't expect you to answer, I've been getting voice mails all day.
pause.....
Me: mkaaaay??
Lady: Do you "push snow"?
Me: I've been known to "push" a little on occasion.
Lady: Great! this is so and so from USM
Me: USM the national?
Lady: Yes that's us. We have several accounts in your area that need service and we are looking to.......
Me: No thanks I'm not interested.
Lady: oh, well fine, have a nice day then.
Me: Thanks you too


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## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

I thought USM changed names...?


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

Moose's Mowing;1712503 said:


> Me: Hello?
> Lady: Oh, hi, I didn't expect you to answer, I've been getting voice mails all day.
> pause.....
> Me: mkaaaay??
> ...


Where's your sence of adventure?


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Moose's Mowing;1712203 said:


> USM called me tonight. I'm in the big leagues now!!!!!!! (I declined their offer)


ROTFALMAO. :laughing:


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## Jr2013 (Feb 2, 2014)

Who are the good nationals to work for?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Moose's Mowing;1712503 said:


> Me: Hello?
> Lady: Oh, hi, I didn't expect you to answer, I've been getting voice mails all day.
> pause.....
> Me: mkaaaay??
> ...


Should of told them you push the other type of snow,


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## djt1029 (Oct 3, 2011)

Jr2013;1744254 said:


> Who are the good nationals to work for?


The one's that pay on time, don't make you lowball, don't try to screw you out of the money you earn, and don't make you jump through hoops to collect your money. In other words, none of them


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

djt1029;1744292 said:


> The one's that pay on time, don't make you lowball, don't try to screw you out of the money you earn, and don't make you jump through hoops to collect your money. In other words, none of them


haha:laughing:


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

We used to do snow work for BFS...

It was a Lowe's, did it for four years.

Only problem it was a seasonal, but in 4 years it averaged really well.

Only reason we dropped it was we picked up another local seasonal that we see more potential in, and didn't want to risk taking on 2 larger seasonal contracts. (which was a wise decision due to this years amount of snow)

Here is what we found positive about the experience.

1.) We were in constant contact with Brickman's regional site manager. Plenty of face to face visits.

2.) They were loyal to us. Always giving their previous contractor first chance at continuing a contract even if they had found another sub to do it cheaper.

3.) Payments were never an issue.

4.) We did not have to directly deal with the store manager.

5.) Even if slip and fall claims were legally our responsibility, Lowes and Brickman always took care of any claims and all of our claims were deemed the fault of the person making the claim. We only heard about 1 instance, and digging deeper, we now know there were many more fraudulent claims against our location.

6.) Contracts were laid out accordingly with pricing. All services were spelled out in writing. If the store requested more services than what was contracted, they had to pay.

7.) Everyone wants to say that Nationals are driving down prices. I say the opposite. They are helping to stabilize prices as far as I'm concerned. With the new local seasonal we acquired, the bidding was insanely low for the size of the facility. Even showed the property manager our old Lowe's contract to point out the discrepancies in the low bidding and how we could provide better services than the lower bidders.

Edit, 8.) During bigger events, they even sent a truck and plow from 100 miles away to help out any of their subs if needed. 


..........


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

White Gardens;1744350 said:


> We used to do snow work for BFS...
> 
> It was a Lowe's, did it for four years.
> 
> ...


You sure love carrying water for the blowhards in brown. My guess is you are a one or 2 truck operation - their ideal sp who relies on them for a big part of their schedule. Once you can break out of that mold, you will realize they are nothing but a headache. There are good management companies but bfs isn't one of them.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Maclawnco;1744380 said:


> You sure love carrying water for the blowhards in brown. My guess is you are a one or 2 truck operation - their ideal sp who relies on them for a big part of their schedule. Once you can break out of that mold, you will realize they are nothing but a headache. There are good management companies but bfs isn't one of them.


3 trucks and 2 wheel loaders with 12' pushers.....

Our experience may be different than most, which you probably have none with a national like most soap box preachers on here.....

........


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

And this point I want to drive home the hardest.


7.) Everyone wants to say that Nationals are driving down prices. I say the opposite. They are helping to stabilize prices as far as I'm concerned. With the new local seasonal we acquired, the bidding was insanely low for the size of the facility. Even showed the property manager our old Lowe's contract to point out the discrepancies in the low bidding and how we could provide better services than the lower bidders.




...............


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

White Gardens;1748802 said:


> which you probably have none with a national like most soap box preachers on here.....
> 
> ........


Try again. Actually work for bfs now and 2 others. Bfs is the only client out of our 85 acres that pitches a fit. 3 or 4 years ago they were good to work for. Now, our area manager is nothing but a thorn in the side.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Maclawnco;1748862 said:


> Try again. Actually work for bfs now and 2 others. Bfs is the only client out of our 85 acres that pitches a fit. 3 or 4 years ago they were good to work for. Now, our area manager is nothing but a thorn in the side.


Area managers vary. We do grounds work for 4 other locations in the summer and each manager is different.

Luckily each manager has been great to work with, it's probably just the one that hates life that you are dealing with.

I'll still stand behind my statements and say that BFS has been great to work with from our experience.

..


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

White Gardens;1748808 said:


> And this point I want to drive home the hardest.
> 
> 7.) Everyone wants to say that Nationals are driving down prices. I say the opposite. They are helping to stabilize prices as far as I'm concerned. With the new local seasonal we acquired, the bidding was insanely low for the size of the facility. Even showed the property manager our old Lowe's contract to point out the discrepancies in the low bidding and how we could provide better services than the lower bidders.
> 
> ...............


They do drive the price down, But its the contactor that helps to drive it down more then anything.
Brickman gives there price and people jumps on it to fast.
I waited them out I pass on a bid and gave it to another contactor.
That 2 truck contactor learned a hard lesson and walk off after the 2nd snow fall.
So Brickman had to take my price. They didn't want to but they had no other choices. For what they was offering for the season I'm getting that x2 + little more.
But after doing the lot I wish didn't take it. I made a profit for Jan but the lot is so uneven and rough. That something you cant tell until you plow it just diving in the lot feels ok but when the plow is down its rough.
It really shows up when your in a skidsteer in 2 gear. Good thing my Gehl has hydro glide or it would be a rough ride.


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## ddobson (May 8, 2010)

Treat the Nationals for no more or less than the role they play in your business model. If they can provide value to your business work with them, if they add no value well... don't leverage them.


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

I know for a fact that there have been 3 storms this season, that a large bank chain on cape cod was unable to open, because they were not plowed! This chain is a client of that big national out of penn. I think nationals will always be here, but more and more accounts will return to private contractors if the nations dont change their ways!


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## cod8825 (Feb 8, 2007)

We take care of CVS for a company out of New Jersey. They have an app for Iphone and Andriod phones. You log in select the store and service it keeps track of time in and out via GPS. Fill out one sheet of paperwork email them and get paid thirty days later, on time every time. This is the third year with them. They added eight stores to us this year especially a few after the 12incher last week. Works for us.


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