# Pricing lots with pull plows



## Elite Snow Removal

im getting a shortiron pull plow in a week or two and I’m wondering how you are pricing you accounts when using one? Are you charging as much as u would for a loader since you are taking a lot more snow that a 8-9’ blade? I am referring to hourly rate lots. 
Thanks


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## 1olddogtwo

Hourly rates are what u need to make a profit.

You should be charging more to cover the costs of the equipment then someone with a paid off Jeep with a 6'6" plow.

He may take 2 hours @75 to plow the same lot as you with 10ft plow doing it in a hour @ 120-130.

Never compare a loader to a truck for production or rates.


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## Elite Snow Removal

1olddogtwo said:


> Hourly rates are what u need to make a profit.
> 
> You should be charging more to cover the costs of the equipment then someone with a paid off Jeep with a 6'6" plow.
> 
> He may take 2 hours @75 to plow the same lot as you with 10ft plow doing it in a hour @ 120-130.
> 
> Never compare a loader to a truck for production or rates.


Obviously I will be charging more to use the pull plow vs my 9' v blade. I am comparing fo a loader because no one uses pull plows here so that's what I have to compare to. Loaders bring 125-135hr here and pick ups bring 70-85hr


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## ponyboy

If getting paid by the hour I’d buy a Jeep with a 6.5 plow 
I’ve never understood by the hour people have different equipment work at different pace doesn’t sound like a good way to plow 
Because u have a pull plow doesn’t meant u r using it 
Too many variables


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## Elite Snow Removal

ponyboy said:


> If getting paid by the hour I'd buy a Jeep with a 6.5 plow
> I've never understood by the hour people have different equipment work at different pace doesn't sound like a good way to plow
> Because u have a pull plow doesn't meant u r using it
> Too many variables


So you would just milk the clock is what your saying? Glad I don't hire you to clean snow. Still needs to be done in a reasonable amount of time imo. I'm not out to screw ppl but I am there to make money. I know what you are saying but that's how they wanted the lot cleaned as of now. They have never had anyone clean it before so they didn't know what to expect. Now I after I've done it a few times I could go give them a per push price and see if that interest them. Then show up with my pull blade and knock it out.


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## ponyboy

Me no but why would some one pay per hour 
Most I’ve seen are per inch up to 12
Inches then over 12 it’s per hour


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## Elite Snow Removal

ponyboy said:


> Me no but why would some one pay per hour
> Most I've seen are per inch up to 12
> Inches then over 12 it's per hour


Idk if anyone does that here or not but I will keep that in mind if I offer them a different price. Thanks


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## Philbilly2




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## FredG

Can you load trucks and stack with a pull behind like you can with a loader? Just because you got a new piece of equipment don't mean your rates have to go up.

Would you try to increase your rate because you got a expandable front plow? I never done any snow or ice work by the hour only by the job. Good Luck


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> im getting a shortiron pull plow in a week or two and I'm wondering how you are pricing you accounts when using one? Are you charging as much as u would for a loader since you are taking a lot more snow that a 8-9' blade? I am referring to hourly rate lots.
> Thanks


no...

a pickup truck is a pickup truck.

They are not and will not be as productive a loader.

Think of it like putting a 36" bar and chain on a 25cc chain saw... just because you have a 36" bar does not mean that you can do the work of a 120cc saw.


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## Mark Oomkes

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I am referring to hourly rate lots.


Are you referring to a lot that takes 1 hour to plow so you charge $80 or if it takes 2 hours you charge $160?


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## Elite Snow Removal

FredG said:


> Can you load trucks and stack with a pull behind like you can with a loader? Just because you got a new piece of equipment don't mean your rates have to go up.
> I sure would increase my rate if it is going to take me half the time it did with the front blade why wouldn't you increase your rate. Instead of taking eight hours now it's only taking four hrs seems to make sense to me. One guy is pulling the blade to the pile on the other guy is stacking it that's how that would work


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## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> Are you referring to a lot that takes 1 hour to plow so you charge $80 or if it takes 2 hours you charge $160?


I am referring to a Lot that takes eight hours with one pick up. I now have to pick ups plus I am adding a pull blade to one of the pick ups


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## Philbilly2

FredG said:


> Just because you got a new piece of equipment don't mean your rates have to go up.


I think Fred hit it on the head.

You are thinking of it on the front end, where you should be thinking on the tail. You are asking to charge more an hour when you need to look at producing more per hour.

You have two conflicting statements that I believe are confusing us.

On one side, you are asking if you can charge more hourly to run a pull plow. On the ladder you are asking if you can show up an knock the job out cause you have the pull plow. Which is it?


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## ponyboy

Again do you get more for a wideout over a straight blade 
More for a 9 foot straight then a 6.5 straight


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I am referring to a Lot that takes eight hours with one pick up. I now have to pick ups plus I am adding a pull blade to one of the pick ups


Is it an hourly bid or a per push bid?


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## Philbilly2

ponyboy said:


> Again do you get more for a wideout over a straight blade
> More for a 9 foot straight then a 6.5 straight


You are talking about being a sub. I am not sure that is what the OP is talking about... might be wrong?


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## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> I think Fred hit it on the head.
> 
> You are thinking of it on the front end, where you should be thinking on the tail. You are asking to charge more an hour when you need to look at producing more per hour.
> 
> You have two conflicting statements that I believe are confusing us.
> 
> On one side, you are asking if you can charge more hourly to run a pull plow. On the ladder you are asking if you can show up an knock the job out cause you have the pull plow. Which is it?


 I don't see how you can charge $80 an hour or whatever it may be and it takes you eight hours to do the job with the front plow and now adding a new piece of equipment you're still going to get 80 An hour and it's only gonna take you half the time you're pulling 16 feet versus pushing 9 feet you have to charge more somewhere you need to pay for that piece of equipment


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## ponyboy

No I’m asking how his contract reads 
Does he charge per piece of equipment size of blade that must be a confusing contract 
We just say it’s x$ to do lot if we go with one truck or 10 it’s same price


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## Elite Snow Removal

ponyboy said:


> Again do you get more for a wideout over a straight blade
> More for a 9 foot straight then a 6.5 straight


My point is you're going for him 9 feet to 16 feet you're covering toys the amount of ground with that one piece of equipment


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## Elite Snow Removal

ponyboy said:


> No I'm asking how his contract reads
> Does he charge per piece of equipment size of blade that must be a confusing contract
> We just say it's x$ to do lot if we go with one truck or 10 it's same price


I understand that you were not doing a drop by the hour so if you have eczema on of dollars for that lot you could bring 20 pieces of equipment in there and get it done in a couple minutes this is not the case this is an hourly rate


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## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> You are talking about being a sub. I am not sure that is what the OP is talking about... might be wrong?


I am not talking about being a sub


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> My point is you're going for him 9 feet to 16 feet you're covering toys the amount of ground with that one piece of equipment


If you are pulling the 16 feet, you are making a giant mess. You cant pull the full width in an open lot, you have to windrow.

They are a driveway/ loading dock tool in my option...


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## ponyboy

Guess I feel his price per hour should already include the best equipment 
As an owner I understand u want more more to cover equipment but I make it up by doing more work not charging customers more 
U get done faster can do more work


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## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> If you are pulling the 16 feet, you are making a giant mess. You cant pull the full width in an open lot, you have to windrow.
> 
> They are a driveway/ loading dock tool in my option...


You are correct I will not be pulling 16 feet because yes it would make a mass but you are definitely pulling more than nine it will be scooping the whole time


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> it's only gonna take you half the time you're pulling 16 feet versus pushing 9 feet


I am sorry, but you are going to be disappointed if you are banking on production rates being halfed in an open lot by adding a pull plow.


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## Elite Snow Removal

ponyboy said:


> Guess I feel his price per hour should already include the best equipment
> As an owner I understand u want more more to cover equipment but I make it up by doing more work not charging customers more
> U get done faster can do more work


If I had already had the Pull blade I would have price the job different but I did not have it at the time so all I had to use was my pick up


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## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> I am sorry, but you are going to be disappointed if you are banking on production rates being halfed in an open lot by adding a pull plow.


Here's where I will not be disappointed cutting my time and a half on my residentials and I have a pile of them so it will dramatically reduce the man hours


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## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> I am sorry, but you are going to be disappointed if you are banking on production rates being halfed in an open lot by adding a pull plow.


Do you have a pull plow??


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## ponyboy

I’d keep same price get home earlier 
Next year change your price and hope they accept a raise for different equipment


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## Philbilly2

ponyboy said:


> U get done faster can do more work


BINGO

Production is the key here.

You bid lot a $80 an hour per truck. So lot should take 8 hours as you say... for two trucks. So you are bidding this lot at $1280. Now you add a pull plow that cuts the time magixcly in half. You still get $1280 for the lot, but now you can do another $1280 in the same 8 hour period... AKA Production rate.


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Do you have a pull plow??


Nope... only plowed big open lots... that is why I never had one.

Spent enough time around a couple guys with them in big open lots and spent my time cleaning up their mess to never want one for the lots that I chose to do.


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Here's where I will not be disappointed cutting my time and a half on my residentials and I have a pile of them so it will dramatically reduce the man hours


I would agree on a residential... HUGE advantage! For sure!


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## Mark Oomkes

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I am referring to a Lot that takes eight hours with one pick up. I now have to pick ups plus I am adding a pull blade to one of the pick ups


You didn't answer the question.


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> so it will dramatically reduce the man hours


Just so you know, you are on the right route here... 

Decrease man hours per job + increase quantity of jobs = higher production rate per hour


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## Drock78

Philbilly2 said:


> If you are pulling the 16 feet, you are making a giant mess. You cant pull the full width in an open lot, you have to windrow.
> 
> They are a driveway/ loading dock tool in my option...


They are far more than a driveway /loading dock tool.



Philbilly2 said:


> Nope... only plowed big open lots... that is why I never had one.
> 
> Spent enough time around a couple guys with them in big open lots and spent my time cleaning up their mess to never want one for the lots that I chose to do.


If they are leaving a big mess, they don't know what they are doing. When I added my 16' back blade, it cut my time by around 30%. That being said, my rates did not increase but I'm able to do more in the amount of time I have available to plow which equals more money per hour and more money at the end of the year


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## Philbilly2

Drock78 said:


> They are far more than a driveway /loading dock tool.
> 
> If they are leaving a big mess, they don't know what they are doing. When I added my 16' back blade, it cut my time by around 30%.


30% production is much closer to a number that I can start believe. 50% nope... not in parking lots...

So you are telling me that you can open your blade to 16 feet wide and you can not make a mess when windrowing a parking lot? I am only commenting on the OP's post about dragging at 16ft wide in an open lot.

(FYI I understand how to dog leg with a back blade, but I have yet to see a pickup mounted back blade that can dog leg at full 16 foot wide.)


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## Drock78

Of course you can't plow a full 16', just like you can't plow the full width of any plow. If you use your V in a scoop position and bring the wings of your back blade in just a bit to catch what you aren't getting with the V, 14-15' of real estate per pass in an open lot is plausible with minimal clean up.


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## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> 30% production is much closer to a number that I can start believe. 50% nope... not in parking lots...
> (FYI I understand how to dog leg with a back blade, but I have yet to see a pickup mounted back blade that can dog leg at full 16 foot wide.)


I would think close to if not 50% on residential and I was hoping for 30-35% on this big lot.


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## Philbilly2

I think you will be better than 50% on a drive...

At least that was what we ran when we did townhomes. Expendables were not around yet. Just a Daniels drag box on a pickup. 3 swipes and on to the next. Jimmy Johns fast.


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## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> I think you will be better than 50% on a drive...
> 
> At least that was what we ran when we did townhomes. Expendables were not around yet. Just a Daniels drag box on a pickup. 3 swipes and on to the next. Jimmy Johns fast.


I'm not getting my hopes up for more than 50% lol. There isn't a single truck in town that has one so it's going to be intresting to see how many snow up after I get one and they see the production I think.


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## Mark Oomkes

Let me try it this way.

Per push\seasonal:

You plow the lot in an hour. You charge $80.

You plow the lot in 2 hours. You charge $80.

OR...............

Per hour:

You plow the lot in an hour and charge $80.

You plow the lot in 2 hours and you charge $160.

Which one is it?


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## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> Let me try it this way.
> 
> Per push\seasonal:
> 
> You plow the lot in an hour. You charge $80.
> 
> You plow the lot in 2 hours. You charge $80.
> 
> OR...............
> 
> Per hour:
> 
> You plow the lot in an hour and charge $80.
> 
> You plow the lot in 2 hours and you charge $160.
> 
> Which one is it?


Per hr mark.


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## Mark Oomkes

Either way, there's 2 ways of looking at this, neither of which apply to a strictly per hour job. 

#1 I invested money in a back plow, I need to recover that cost so my hourly rate will be higher. 

#2 I invested money in a back plow, I am now more efficient and my production rate (dollars per hour) will be 30-50% higher so I will be doing more work in less time and be able to recover the cost of my back plow. 

Actually, #1 does apply to an hourly job.


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Per hr mark.


I would leave the pull plow up in the air... :laugh:


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## Mark Oomkes

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Per hr mark.


OK, then you should try to negotiate a higher hourly rate. It just isn't comparable to a loader.


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## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> Either way, there's 2 ways of looking at this, neither of which apply to a strictly per hour job.
> 
> #1 I invested money in a back plow, I need to recover that cost so my hourly rate will be higher.
> 
> #2 I invested money in a back plow, I am now more efficient and my production rate (dollars per hour) will be 30-50% higher so I will be doing more work in less time and be able to recover the cost of my back plow.
> 
> Actually, #1 does apply to an hourly job.


I'm with you on #1. I think I need to charge more to help recover the cost. This is exactly what my post is about but ppl don't think you should increase the price. I think that's crazy imo but what do I know I've only been doing this 4yrs now.


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## Mark Oomkes

Elite Snow Removal said:


> what do I know I've only been doing this 4yrs now.


I've been doing it for 30 years and plenty of newbies on PS think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Then again...so do a bunch of the veterans.

Maybe they're all right.


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I'm with you on #1. I think I need to charge more to help recover the cost. This is exactly what my post is about but ppl don't think you should increase the price. I think that's crazy imo but what do I know I've only been doing this 4yrs now.


Most of us on here do not plow at an hourly rate. That is the same as sub contracting in one form or another. This is why everyone was confused.

Your title is "Pricing lots with pull plows"

To us and the rest of the world, that does not mean "pricing an hourly rate to plow with a pull plow"

Hence the mass confusion.


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## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> I've been doing it for 30 years and plenty of newbies on PS think I don't know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Then again...so do a bunch of the veterans.
> 
> Maybe they're all right.


I think you know what your talking about And I respect your opinion


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## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> Hence the mass confusion.


I thought it was just me...


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## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> I thought it was just me...


Sorry for the confusion


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## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> I thought it was just me...


It is...


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## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> It is...


Thumbs UpThumbs Up


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## leigh

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I'm with you on #1. I think I need to charge more to help recover the cost. This is exactly what my post is about but ppl don't think you should increase the price. I think that's crazy imo but what do I know I've only been doing this 4yrs now.


 Of course you raise the price if it's billed hourly. You going to upgrade to a more efficient setup and pass along the savings to the client for free! You're discovering why working by the hour is not desirable. You should know what you're hourly cost is and use that # to come up with the price. Nothing but confusion/problems when the client is doing the math in his head. Price per push, storm or season, keep it simple. Hopefully you'll have a advantage over the competition, you may be able to do jobs for slightly less or equal to their pricing and with added production rates make more per hour. At least until others run same setup.


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## Elite Snow Removal

leigh said:


> Of course you raise the price if it's billed hourly. You going to upgrade to a more efficient setup and pass along the savings to the client for free! You're discovering why working by the hour is not desirable. You should know what you're hourly cost is and use that # to come up with the price. Nothing but confusion/problems when the client is doing the math in his head. Price per push, storm or season, keep it simple. Hopefully you'll have a advantage over the competition, you may be able to do jobs for slightly less or equal to their pricing and with added production rates make more per hour. At least until others run same setup.


YES THANKS. So now what do you raise the price to. What do you compare it to? A loader price with a pusher?


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## Luther

Elite Snow Removal said:


> This is exactly what my post is about but ppl don't think you should increase the price. I think that's crazy imo but what do I know I've only been doing this 4yrs now.


Listen up people...he's been doing this for four years now. He knows what he's doing.

NOT

You should be double talking and negotiating your rates with your client, not the people here.


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## Mark Oomkes

Luther said:


> You should be double talking and negotiating your rates with your client, not the people here.


Huh?


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## Elite Snow Removal

Luther said:


> Listen up people...he's been doing this for four years now. He knows what he's doing.
> 
> NOT
> 
> You should be double talking and negotiating your rates with your client, not the people here.


I never said I knew what I was doing. Where did I say that??? I've never had anything other than a truck and a plow for residentials and this is one of my first commercial lots so that's why I ask ppl on here. There's experienced ppl on here that have been through this.


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## EWSplow

Elite Snow Removal said:


> YES THANKS. So now what do you raise the price to. What do you compare it to? A loader price with a pusher?


I believe @Drock78 said he did 30% more with one. 
Maybe see if your clients would accept that?
Good luck.


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> YES THANKS. So now what do you raise the price to. What do you compare it to? A loader price with a pusher?


No... you will not even be close the the production rate of a loader with a pusher... get that out of your head.

If you think you will be 30% more productive... I would ask for 30% increased pay.


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## Mark Oomkes

Luther said:


> Listen up people...he's been doing this for four years now. He knows what he's doing.
> 
> NOT
> 
> You should be double talking and negotiating your rates with your client, not the people here.


You're sounding way too mulch like @Defcon 5 ...angry and bitter.


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## Philbilly2

EWSplow said:


> I believe @Drock78 said he did 30% more with one.
> Maybe see if your clients would accept that?
> Good luck.


Seems logical...


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## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> You're sounding way too mulch like @Defcon 5 ...angry and bitter.


I thought he was starting to sound like you :laugh:


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## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> No... you will not even be close the the production rate of a loader with a pusher... get that out of your head.
> 
> If you think you will be 30% more productive... I would ask for 30% increased pay.


Yes maybe that's what I'll have to try


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## Mark Oomkes

A 3 yd loader with 16' pusher and a decent operator will do the work of 3 trucks. 

If you think you can triple your hourly rate...knock yourself oot.


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## Mark Oomkes

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I thought he was starting to sound like you :laugh:


If the shoe fits...


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## John_DeereGreen




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## Luther

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I never said I knew what I was doing. Where did I say that??? I've never had anything other than a truck and a plow for residentials and this is one of my first commercial lots so that's why I ask ppl on here. There's experienced ppl on here that have been through this.


My bad. I took the _*"but what do I know I've only been doing this 4yrs now" *_as a snarky remark.

Good luck to you


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## leigh

The price of the job should remain the same! Its just taking you less time, you're cost has increased, purchase of the backblade, maintaining it etc. I have no idea what to charge per hour. You've got a problem since this is an existing client. Don't charge by the hour , get them on a set price. You're not a sub.


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## Mr.Markus

Mark Oomkes said:


> I've been doing it for 30 years and plenty of newbies on PS think I don't know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Then again...so do a bunch of the veterans.
> 
> Maybe they're all right.


I'm alright....thanks Mark.


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## Mark Oomkes

Mr.Markus said:


> I'm alright....thanks Mark.


Let me guess...you've been tested several times...


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> A 3 yd loader with 16' pusher and a decent operator will do the work of 3 trucks.
> 
> If you think you can triple your hourly rate...knock yourself oot.


A Ventrac with a good operator will do the work of 11 shovelers...


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## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> A 3 yd loader with 16' pusher and a decent operator will do the work of 3 trucks.
> 
> If you think you can triple your hourly rate...knock yourself oot.


Well well I know they told me it took the in house guy 4-5hr to do the lot with a loader before they changed owners and sold the equipment and it took me 8hrs with one truck my first time with 4" of snow. Now this last time we had 10" but the wind blew like no other so didn't hold all the snow. I think I have 3hrs or so into it this last time and there was way more snow. It's out in the country so the snow blew right through mainly. I think that being said it's going to be hard to charge them a per push. Don't think they will want to pay $1000 or what have you for 3hrs of work but on the token it may take 12hrs another time.


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## Elite Snow Removal

Defcon 5 said:


> A Ventrac with a good operator will do the work of 11 shovelers...


I just looked at those last night! Looks pretty sweet


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> A Ventrac with a good operator will do the work of 11 shovelers...


So I can charge $550 an hour if my hourly rate (yup, I said it) is $50 for a shovel monkey?


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## JMHConstruction

I had typed out two novels last night while I was up with the baby, but I deleted them both before posting. Both ended up going in the direction of production rates, and accomplishing more work in the same amount of time. Problem is, it just doesn't work when you're working per hour. Let's try a third novel...

The worst thing you can do as a business is work per hour. It may guarantee money in the beginning, but as you become more efficient, you begin to lose money.

What is the point of adding equipment? What is the point of being more efficient, and getting jobs done faster? As a business owner, especially with a new business, you want to hustle. You want to make as much as you can, as fast as you can, then get on to the next one. You simply can't do that at an hourly rate. People who hire per hour only look at one number, the hourly rate. If you go in there twice as much as the next guy with just a plow, they won't see anything but your price.

You need to move out of hourly pricing before upgrading your equipment. Once you price per job, you can start investing into equipment to get the job completed faster.

Look at Mark's driveway tractor. He charges what, $10 or something per driveway, but he gets it done 10 times faster than a truck. If he were hourly, there would be absolutely no point in buying the tractor to increase his productivity.

I'm not saying milk the clock, but you simply can't justify more efficient equipment while working hourly.


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## JMHConstruction

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Well well I know they told me it took the in house guy 4-5hr to do the lot with a loader before they changed owners and sold the equipment and it took me 8hrs with one truck my first time with 4" of snow. Now this last time we had 10" but the wind blew like no other so didn't hold all the snow. I think I have 3hrs or so into it this last time and there was way more snow. It's out in the country so the snow blew right through mainly. I think that being said it's going to be hard to charge them a per push. Don't think they will want to pay $1000 or what have you for 3hrs of work but on the token it may take 12hrs another time.


This lot is too big for you, and you probably should have never taken it...That said, it's too late now.

If it takes you 8 hrs @ $75/hr you're charging them $600 per storm. They used to pay a loader (we'll average) 3.5 hrs @ $150/hr. That's $75 LESS for the loader, and he was done in a reasonable amount of time. This here proves my point above that people only see the her hour price.

Where are you getting $1,000 per push? If you can get that, you need to stop what you're doing and sub a loader at $150/hr. You'll make more on him, and you can utilize your truck and back blade somewhere more fitting. I would honestly think about this anyway, just to save your reputation in a large storm.


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## leigh

Mark Oomkes said:


> So I can charge $550 an hour if my hourly rate (yup, I said it) is $50 for a shovel monkey?


 Of course you can.! Until someone else buys one and competition takes over .


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> So I can charge $550 an hour if my hourly rate (yup, I said it) is $50 for a shovel monkey?


I am Flummoxed and Befuddled that you get $50 an hour for a shovel monkey in a low snow area


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## leigh

Defcon 5 said:


> I am Flummoxed and Befuddled that you get $50 an hour for a shovel monkey in a low snow area


 That's not per shoveler, thats for the whole crew,they split it up after a rumble.


----------



## Philbilly2

JMHConstruction said:


> The worst thing you can do as a business is work per hour. It may guarantee money in the beginning, but as you become more efficient, you begin to lose money.


I can't agree with that 100%. We do a ton of T&M for the hospitals and schools. It can be revolving cash cow if the work is always there...

You have to know what your hourly nut is to do this type of work. If you are just saying that since "Joe Snow" is charging $80 an hour and your overhead is $85, then yes... It will be your demise.

I will give you a quick example. Lets say I have a guy on my staff that bounces between the hospitals that we service. My overhead allows for my company to profit $25/hr on that man for every hour that he is in one of those buildings. If he is there every day for a standard work year working strictly T&M netting $25/hr to the company, he nets the company a profit of $50,000 in a single year. And that does not include the 20% mark up on any materials that he uses.


----------



## Defcon 5

Philbilly2 said:


> I can't agree with that 100%. We do a ton of T&M for the hospitals and schools. It can be revolving cash cow if the work is always there...
> 
> You have to know what your hourly nut is to do this type of work. If you are just saying that since "Joe Snow" is charging $80 an hour and your overhead is $85, then yes... It will be your demise.
> 
> I will give you a quick example. Lets say I have a guy on my staff that bounces between the hospitals that we service. My overhead allows for my company to profit $25/hr on that man for every hour that he is in one of those buildings. If he is there every day for a standard work year working strictly T&M netting $25/hr to the company, he nets the company a profit of $50,000 in a single year. And that does not include the 20% mark up on any materials that he uses.


Is that a "net" profit??


----------



## Philbilly2

Defcon 5 said:


> Is that a "net" profit??


----------



## Defcon 5

Philbilly2 said:


>


Did you dye your hair Phil??


----------



## leigh

That's Chad,thanks Canada :hammerhead:


----------



## Mr.Markus

Defcon 5 said:


> I am Flummoxed and Befuddled that you get $50 an hour for a shovel monkey in a low snow area


I surprised you can find 1 shoveler that shows up twice in a row, let alone 11 of them.


----------



## Philbilly2

Defcon 5 said:


> Did you dye your hair Phil??


and grew it out to fit in with the hipsters


----------



## Mike_PS

ok, let's keep it on point


----------



## JMHConstruction

Philbilly2 said:


> I can't agree with that 100%. We do a ton of T&M for the hospitals and schools. It can be revolving cash cow if the work is always there...
> 
> You have to know what your hourly nut is to do this type of work. If you are just saying that since "Joe Snow" is charging $80 an hour and your overhead is $85, then yes... It will be your demise.
> 
> I will give you a quick example. Lets say I have a guy on my staff that bounces between the hospitals that we service. My overhead allows for my company to profit $25/hr on that man for every hour that he is in one of those buildings. If he is there every day for a standard work year working strictly T&M netting $25/hr to the company, he nets the company a profit of $50,000 in a single year. And that does not include the 20% mark up on any materials that he uses.


You are correct. However, you are an established company, know your costs, and already have the tools to make the job efficient, while still charging what you need.

I shouldn't have made such a blanket statement like that, however, aren't most of your jobs per job? If it was hourly, what difference for the bottom line would it make that you dig a while with a shovel or a backhoe. Backhoe allows you to get one job completed faster, and in a timely manner, so you can get on to the next onepayup. Hourly it wouldn't matter if it took you 6 months to dig the hole with the shovel, or completed 15 jobs in those 6 months. You get paid the same.

That was my point. I'm not saying T&M doesn't have it's place. We do repairs under $1,000 on T&M. When talking about an overall business practice though, it's not ideal IMO.


----------



## leigh

JMHConstruction said:


> That was my point. I'm not saying T&M doesn't have it's place. We do repairs under $1,000 on T&M. When talking about an overall business practice though, it's not ideal IMO.


 And we are talking about snow removal, the uncertainty makes it that much more challenging .


----------



## Philbilly2

JMHConstruction said:


> You are correct. However, you are an established company, know your costs, and already have the tools to make the job efficient, while still charging what you need.
> 
> I shouldn't have made such a blanket statement like that, however, aren't most of your jobs per job? If it was hourly, what difference for the bottom line would it make that you dig a while with a shovel or a backhoe. Backhoe allows you to get one job completed faster, and in a timely manner, so you can get on to the next onepayup. Hourly it wouldn't matter if it took you 6 months to dig the hole with the shovel, or completed 15 jobs in those 6 months. You get paid the same.
> 
> That was my point. I'm not saying T&M doesn't have it's place. We do repairs under $1,000 on T&M. When talking about an overall business practice though, it's not ideal IMO.


Touche my good man... Touche.

A good mix of the two seems to work best for me.


----------



## Philbilly2

leigh said:


> And we are talking about snow removal, the uncertainty makes it that much more challenging .


Although I agree, the idea is the same. I still do snow removal for the hospital when we get a good storm that their in house can not handle.

I can assure you that hourly rate can make a very good dollar if you are priced correctly.


----------



## JMHConstruction

Philbilly2 said:


> Although I agree, the idea is the same. I still do snow removal for the hospital when we get a good storm that their in house can not handle.
> 
> I can assure you that hourly rate can make a very good dollar if you are priced correctly.


I've actually lost money to the guy I used to sub as a backup. Worth it to loose a bit on one storm, keep the customer happy, and gain it back in future storms.


----------



## JMHConstruction

Back on track... OP, do you know why they decided to go with you as opposed to the loader that was there in the past? Was it price, performance, something else?


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> Back on track... OP, do you know why they decided to go with you as opposed to the loader that was there in the past? Was it price, performance, something else?


Like I said they sold the company to someone else and they sold the equipment. I have one of there other buildings in the town I live in sso they aske me to do it when the guy they previously hired didn't show up. They can't get anyone to travel out there since it out of town but me I'll go there cuz I have another lot 20mins from there so I go right by. I took that lot 20 mins away because the contract was good as they can't find anyone in that town since it's so small no one is insured that does do snow removal there. I now have 3 of the chain stores and will aquire the next when it goes up nxt year


----------



## JMHConstruction

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Like I said they sold the company to someone else and they sold the equipment. I have one of there other buildings in the town I live in sso they aske me to do it when the guy they previously hired didn't show up. They can't get anyone to travel out there since it out of town but me I'll go there cuz I have another lot 20mins from there so I go right by. I took that lot 20 mins away because the contract was good as they can't find anyone in that town since it's so small no one is insured that does do snow removal there. I now have 3 of the chain stores and will aquire the next when it goes up nxt year


How long does it take you to do your route?


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> How long does it take you to do your route?


With 1 truck it takes about 10hrs for residentials. Then add in commercial at an additional 11-12hr. BUT I now have 2 trucks running and didn't get a real chance this last storm to see how long it took with 2 truck cuz I was running around a lot and checking the work of the new guy.


----------



## EWSplow

Elite Snow Removal said:


> With 1 truck it takes about 10hrs for residentials. Then add in commercial at an additional 11-12hr. BUT I now have 2 trucks running and didn't get a real chance this last storm to see how long it took with 2 truck cuz I was running around a lot and checking the work of the new guy.


Sounds like you're spread pretty thin, especially if you get dumped on with a big event.


----------



## Philbilly2

sounds like route density comes into play to me


----------



## John_DeereGreen

You’ve got way too much work for the iron you have on the ground. Pure and simple. 21-22 hours for one truck is 10.5-11 hours for 2 trucks. That’s double what it should be to keep any customer even with the lowest expectations happy.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> You've got way too much work for the iron you have on the ground. Pure and simple. 21-22 hours for one truck is 10.5-11 hours for 2 trucks. That's double what it should be to keep any customer even with the lowest expectations happy.


That's why I purchased a pull blade. Now my 10hr res is now hopefully 5hrs. THATS FOR 1 TRUCK.


----------



## Philbilly2

John_DeereGreen said:


> You've got way too much work for the iron you have on the ground. Pure and simple. 21-22 hours for one truck is 10.5-11 hours for 2 trucks. That's double what it should be to keep any customer even with the lowest expectations happy.


That is why he is getting a pull plow... so he has two trucks and a loader...


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> That is why he is getting a pull plow... so he has two trucks and a loader...


No it will be 2 trucks and one will have a pull plow


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> No it will be 2 trucks and one will have a pull plow


Oh... I misunderstood


----------



## EWSplow

I couldn't fathom a route that long. Sounds like a lot of windshield time. My route is 13 miles end to end. Not more than 5 minutes between each site. 

I've got a buddy in the UP who has a route covering a lot of miles, but 1/2 of his are cottages, camp roads and towers that can wait until the day after.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> That's why I purchased a pull blade. Now my 10hr res is now hopefully 5hrs. THATS FOR 1 TRUCK.


The back blade is going to cut your drive time in half? I didn't know they made them with jet engines and wings for faster transport too.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

EWSplow said:


> I couldn't fathom a route that long. Sounds like a lot of windshield time. My route is 13 miles end to end. Not more than 5 minutes between each site.
> 
> I've got a buddy in the UP who has a route covering a lot of miles, but 1/2 of his are cottages, camp roads and towers that can wait until the day after.


I can go from house to house in 5min or less so idk how that's to much winsheid time. The farthest I go is a 20 min drive and I have a stop at this big lot in between


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> The back blade is going to cut your drive time in half? I didn't know they made them with jet engines and wings for faster transport too.


Yea ok whatever


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Yea ok whatever


It's simple math there chief. Unless your plow is on the ground 100% of the time for the 10 hour resi route, you cannot physically cut the route time in half even if your productivity while plowing doubles.


----------



## EWSplow

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I can go from house to house in 5min or less so idk how that's to much winsheid time. The farthest I go is a 20 min drive and I have a stop at this big lot in between


Can you sub one of those uninsured guys? Pay him more so he can afford insurance.


----------



## JMHConstruction

EWSplow said:


> Can you sub one of those uninsured guys? Pay him more so he can afford insurance.


And make sure you get added as additional insured


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> It's simple math there chief. Unless your plow is on the ground 100% of the time for the 10 hour resi route, you cannot physically cut the route time in half even if your productivity while plowing doubles.


What are your smoking there chief. Can I have some. 50% was just a number. I said I was hoping for what 30-35% in the other post. THAT IS GOING TO HELP DRASTICY! I don't care what you say it's going to cut a lot of time.


----------



## JMHConstruction

Calm down, we are just trying to help.

The back blade will help with the resi accounts, but then you won't be able to use it for your commercial ones.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> Calm down, we are just trying to help.
> 
> The back blade will help with the resi accounts, but then you won't be able to use it for your commercial ones.


Wow How do you figure I will not use it on my commercial one if I am having two trucks on my commercial lot? This is just becoming a pissing match now has all it is


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

I heard what I wanted to hear so about my question so thanks for the advice and I’m going to keep on plowing:usflag:


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JMHConstruction said:


> Calm down, we are just trying to help.
> 
> The back blade will help with the resi accounts, but then you won't be able to use it for your commercial ones.


He won't?


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> He won't?


 Yeah apparently not he must not been plowing for very long Or maybe they do things different in his part of the woods


----------



## EWSplow

JMHConstruction said:


> Calm down, we are just trying to help.
> 
> The back blade will help with the resi accounts, but then you won't be able to use it for your commercial ones.


That will come in really handy for pulling out parking spaces, etc. With 2 trucks, he's going to save a bunch of time.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> What are your smoking there chief. Can I have some. 50% was just a number. I said I was hoping for what 30-35% in the other post. THAT IS GOING TO HELP DRASTICY! I don't care what you say it's going to cut a lot of time.





Elite Snow Removal said:


> and it's only gonna take you half the time





Elite Snow Removal said:


> cutting my time and a half on my residentials





Elite Snow Removal said:


> I would think close to if not 50% on residential


Your words. Not mine.

Let's say you have 50 driveways and each driveway takes 5 minutes. That's 250 minutes. Now let's say you have 3 minutes in between driveways. That's 150 minutes. Total of 400 minutes or 6.6 hours. Now let's say you cut your time by 50%. Your driveways now take 125 minutes to plow, but your drive time is still 150 minutes. Total of 275 minutes or 4.6 hours. That's a 33% decrease in time. Now I don't know how many drives and how far apart they are, this might be a better example than you'll realize, and it might be worse than you'll realize in your application.

I never once said it would not make you faster. I ran back blades for several seasons. I know what they can do and what they're capable of. 25-30% is a realistic number to figure on increased production WHILE PLOWING. They cannot miraculously cut your drive time down as well.

Good luck. You've clearly got a LOT of learning to do.


----------



## JMHConstruction

I apparently misunderstood... thought one truck was for your residential and the other for commercial.

Like you said, you finally got someone to say what you wanted, so I'll quit trying to help


----------



## cjames808

New contract clause, feel free to use: 

$11.00 Per "Blade Foot" Per Hour


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> Your words. Not mine.
> 
> Let's say you have 50 driveways and each driveway takes 5 minutes. That's 250 minutes. Now let's say you have 3 minutes in between driveways. That's 150 minutes. Total of 400 minutes or 6.6 hours. Now let's say you cut your time by 50%. Your driveways now take 125 minutes to plow, but your drive time is still 150 minutes. Total of 275 minutes or 4.6 hours. That's a 33% decrease in time. Now I don't know how many drives and how far apart they are, this might be a better example than you'll realize, and it might be worse than you'll realize in your application.
> 
> I never once said it would not make you faster. I ran back blades for several seasons. I know what they can do and what they're capable of. 25-30% is a realistic number to figure on increased production WHILE PLOWING. They cannot miraculously cut your drive time down as well.
> 
> Good luck. You've clearly got a LOT of learning to do.


Yep sure do I guess but I now know everything thanks to your post


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> I apparently misunderstood... thought one truck was for your residential and the other for commercial.
> 
> Like you said, you finally got someone to say what you wanted, so I'll quit trying to help


Sounds good thanks for the input


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

cjames808 said:


> New contract clause, feel free to use:
> 
> $11.00 Per "Blade Foot" Per Hour


:laugh:


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Good luck. You've clearly got a LOT of learning to do.[/QUOTE]
I am truly glad you were gifted by the plow gods and knew it all right away without a learning curve CONGRADULATIONS :redbounce:


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Yep sure do I guess but I now know everything thanks to your post


You've got a long road full of expensive lessons ahead of you. Some of us here have already been down that road and are trying to help you not go down it too.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> You've got a long road full of expensive lessons ahead of you. Some of us here have already been down that road and are trying to help you not go down it too.


Bottom line is if I have bigger equipment I am going to have to charge more for that piece of equipment that's just the way it Has to be. Right?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

John_DeereGreen said:


> You've got a long road full of expensive lessons ahead of you. Some of us here have already been down that road and are trying to help you not go down it too.


Your points are valid, but at least this guy doesn't cop an attitude right away and tells everyone to shove it.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Bottom line is if I have bigger equipment I am going to have to charge more for that piece of equipment that's just the way it Has to be. Right?


No...


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> No...


 Mark if I am charging per hour how can you not charge more for a bigger piece of equipment It just would not be fair to charge the same but get the job done quicker that doesn't even make sense??


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Mark if I am charging per hour how can you not charge more for a bigger piece of equipment It just would not be fair to charge the same but get the job done quicker that doesn't even make sense??


That isn't what you said. Your blanket statement of larger equipment=higher hourly rate is not true. We have shown that.

If your job is hourly, then yes, it _should_ be.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

You’re not going to tell a customer that you will push their lot for $80 an hour knowing that is going to take you four hours to do and then go buy a payloader with a 20 foot pusher and clean it in 60minutes for $80


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> That isn't what you said. Your blanket statement of larger equipment=higher hourly rate is not true. We have shown that.
> 
> If your job is hourly, then yes, it _should_ be.


 OK you are agreeing with me then there was some confusion


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Bottom line is if I have bigger equipment I am going to have to charge more for that piece of equipment that's just the way it Has to be. Right?


Mark answered your question here, and I believe he answered it earlier in this thread. If it wasn't him, I know another person answered it the same way.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Mark Oomkes said:


> Your points are valid, but at least this guy doesn't cop an attitude right away and tells everyone to shove it.


Touché.


----------



## Mr.Markus

TLDR


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> Touché.


 Are you implying I am telling people to shove it?


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Are you implying I am telling people to shove it?


No sir. The opposite in fact.


----------



## EWSplow

Mark Oomkes said:


> That isn't what you said. Your blanket statement of larger equipment=higher hourly rate is not true. We have shown that.
> 
> If your job is hourly, then yes, it _should_ be.


Here's an idea: you've plowed it and you know how long it takes. You charge the same next time, but it takes less time, so you're essentially making more.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> No sir. The opposite in fact.


I thought I was being pretty nice about this whole deal even with some negative remarks. I am just trying to learn here.


----------



## BossPlow2010

Elite Snow Removal said:


> You're not going to tell a customer that you will push their lot for $80 an hour knowing that is going to take you four hours to do and then go buy a payloader with a 20 foot pusher and clean it in 60minutes for $80


What makes that plow and driver worth 80 an hour?


----------



## John_DeereGreen

EWSplow said:


> Here's an idea: you've plowed it and you know how long it takes. You charge the same next time, but it takes less time, so you're essentially making more.


Thumbs UpThumbs Up

Your "hourly rate" increases in the form of taking less time to do the same job. Thus allowing you to take on more work (or in the sounds of your route, get done in a reasonable timeframe)


----------



## cjames808

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I thought I was being pretty nice about this whole deal even with some negative remarks. I am just trying to learn here.


I think everyone seems bored with the Snow Drought.

At least the gov is shut down.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

cjames808 said:


> At least the gov is shut down.


IRS is closed and cannot process tax returns...you better believe they still expect my check to be there on time though...


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

BossPlow2010 said:


> What makes that plow and driver worth 80 an hour?


Ahh well why do you charge what you do??


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Ahh well why do you charge what you do??


Why do YOU charge what you do? Do you know what it costs you per hour to operate your truck? To break even including overhead?


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> Why do YOU charge what you do? Do you know what it costs you per hour to operate your truck? To break even including overhead?


No I sure don't I'm not worth a crap on that end of it I charge what I do because that is about the going rate


----------



## BossPlow2010

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Ahh well why do you charge what you do??


To earn a livable wage, live comfortably and pay the least amount in taxes as I legally can.
Now I've answered you, will you answer me?


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> No I sure don't I'm not worth a crap on that end of it I charge what I do because that is about the going rate


What if "the going rate" is $20 an hour less than you need to break even? You plow snow and lose $20 an hour to do it?

Calling @Philbilly2 to do your master analysis for another member....


----------



## EWSplow

Elite Snow Removal said:


> No I sure don't I'm not worth a crap on that end of it I charge what I do because that is about the going rate


You've already said your competitors aren't even insured. That alone makes you worth more than their going rate.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> What if "the going rate" is $20 an hour less than you need to break even? You plow snow and lose $20 an hour to do it?
> 
> Calling @Philbilly2 to do your master analysis for another member....


It is not $20 an hour less I am right about in the middle we range from 70 to about $85 an hour


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Do yourself a favor. Right now. Do not sell another job of any size until you figure out your costs of doing business and how much profit you want to make on top of your costs. 

This is what I was talking about when I said you’ve got a long road of expensive lessons to learn. You gotta know what your costs are if you want to succeed.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

EWSplow said:


> You've already said your competitors aren't even insured. That alone makes you worth more than their going rate.


NO NO in the one town that I move snow in they have a hard time finding people because it is so small. I only have one account in that particular town that is it. That contract is a seasonal contract


----------



## Philbilly2

John_DeereGreen said:


> What if "the going rate" is $20 an hour less than you need to break even? You plow snow and lose $20 an hour to do it?
> 
> Calling @Philbilly2 to do your master analysis for another member....


I'm bizzie...


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> Do yourself a favor. Right now. Do not sell another job of any size until you figure out your costs of doing business and how much profit you want to make on top of your costs.
> 
> This is what I was talking about when I said you've got a long road of expensive lessons to learn. You gotta know what your costs are if you want to succeed.


Well I've been doing it for four years this way and I've been making money so I'm doing something right


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> It is not $20 an hour less I am right about in the middle we range from 70 to about $85 an hour


You don't know that it is or isn't $20 an hour less than your cost to break even because you don't know your costs!!


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Well I've been doing it for four years this way and I've been making money so I'm doing something right


How do you know you're making money? Cash flow and profit aren't the same thing.


----------



## EWSplow

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Well I've been doing it for four years this way and I've been making money so I'm doing something right


Good for you, but if there's an opportunity to charge more, then do it. Don't leave money on the table.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite...read this thread, and start your own once you've read it and have your own questions.

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/fa...l-costs-into-quotes-bids.169498/#post-2181394

Most of us are glad to help you but we're also not going to spoon feed you.

You're doing it wrong, you just don't know it.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> Elite...read this thread, and start your own once you've read it and have your own questions.
> 
> https://www.plowsite.com/threads/fa...l-costs-into-quotes-bids.169498/#post-2181394
> 
> Most of us are glad to help you but we're also not going to spoon feed you.
> 
> You're doing it wrong, you just don't know it.


Thank you I will check it out


----------



## the Suburbanite

John_DeereGreen said:


> IRS is closed and cannot process tax returns...you better believe they still expect my check to be there on time though...


And if you're waiting for a tax return, don't hold your breath.


----------



## Philbilly2

I forgot about that one.

Jarrett, can you pull up the one from a couple weeks ago?

Elite- not sure what you use for book keeping software, but if you use something like a quickbooks format program and you actually enter the fields correctly, we can get to your bottom dollar overhead number rather quickly.

If not, you will need your 1120S from your taxes.

I can provide the formulas that you will need to help yourself understand how much your operation costs you to run.

Just not tonight as I am to far into the


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Philbilly2 said:


> I forgot about that one.
> 
> Jarrett, can you pull up the one from a couple weeks ago?
> 
> Elite- not sure what you use for book keeping software, but if you use something like a quickbooks format program and you actually enter the fields correctly, we can get to your bottom dollar overhead number rather quickly.
> 
> If not, you will need your 1120S from your taxes.
> 
> I can provide the formulas that you will need to help yourself understand how much your operation costs you to run.
> 
> Just not tonight as I am to far into the


This one? With the fella from Illinois?


Philbilly2 said:


> This is what we are all trying to explain to you but you are refusing for some reason. The truck is not the only cost in plowing snow. You don't understand this yet as you are new to being self employed, we all get that.
> 
> Once you get to the point that you have overhead, employees, insurance, a shop/ office, office staff, computers, copiers, equipment payments, truck payments, income tax, payroll tax, heat, electric, maintenance costs, repair costs, etc.
> 
> There are so many more factors that are involved with running a business that you are looking past. That is why everyone's number will be completely different.
> 
> Here is an example for you to help you understand this...
> 
> The work that I do, we cannot plow snow in most cases. I used to do it to keep my guys busy in the winter. The bottom line was that plowing snow was actually costing me money to do. Once I figured out what we needed to clear per hour to break even, we found that the market cannot sustain that dollar figure per hour. The dollar figure in my area is between $85 and $105 an hour per truck with a blade depending on how close you get toward the suburbs/city... So if look at other peoples bids that don't have the same operation and or overhead and just match their number, I will loose money plowing snow. That is the simple fact that EVERYONE is attempting to explain to you.


----------



## m_ice

Mark Oomkes said:


> So I can charge $550 an hour if my hourly rate (yup, I said it) is $50 for a shovel monkey?


You can if you dont call it hourly to your customers but per push and are just that efficient


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> I forgot about that one.
> 
> Jarrett, can you pull up the one from a couple weeks ago?
> 
> Elite- not sure what you use for book keeping software, but if you use something like a quickbooks format program and you actually enter the fields correctly, we can get to your bottom dollar overhead number rather quickly.
> 
> If not, you will need your 1120S from your taxes.
> 
> I can provide the formulas that you will need to help yourself understand how much your operation costs you to run.
> 
> Just not tonight as I am to far into the


I really don't use much for book keeping I guess. I just add up my recipes at the end of the year and put my snow removal stuff in one pile and my other business stuff in another pile and give the numbers to my tax lady


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I really don't use much for book keeping I guess. I just add up my recipes at the end of the year and put my snow removal stuff in one pile and my other business stuff in another pile and give the numbers to my tax lady


Goo...


----------



## Philbilly2

John_DeereGreen said:


> This one? With the fella from Illinois?


Ah yes...

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/first-run-under-my-belt-few-questions-f

OP check this one out.

Page 4 will have a crash course on how to find your operating costs.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> Ah yes...
> 
> https://www.plowsite.com/threads/first-run-under-my-belt-few-questions-f
> 
> OP check this one out.
> 
> Page 4 will have a crash course on how to find your operating costs.


The link doesn't work??


----------



## Philbilly2

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/fi...ions-for-the-vets.175062/page-12#post-2324396

Sorry on my phone... not so good at this.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Philbilly2 said:


> https://www.plowsite.com/threads/fi...ions-for-the-vets.175062/page-12#post-2324396
> 
> Sorry on my phone... not so good at this.


Is it the phone...or too many Busch lattes to blame?


----------



## Philbilly2

John_DeereGreen said:


> Is it the phone...or too many Busch lattes to blame?


Just getting going...


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

So how do I figure my truck in to the equation? I don’t do lawns in the summer so the truck just get used for the snow and my other business


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> So how do I figure my truck in to the equation? I don't do lawns in the summer so the truck just get used for the snow and my other business


Still overhead... what does it cost you to keep it sitting in your driveway all summer?


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> So how do I figure my truck in to the equation? I don't do lawns in the summer so the truck just get used for the snow and my other business


You need to figure the percentage out of 100% it will be used in an average season for this business and use that to calculate your cost per hour.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> You need to figure the percentage out of 100% it will be used in an average season for this business and use that to calculate your cost per hour.


How the heck do I know what the percentage of use is going to be? Idk how much it's going to snow??


----------



## Philbilly2

Not to come off wrong, but if you have an actual business (hoping you do with more than one truck) you need to invest in some accounting software.

It will make you more money than you pay for it if you input properly and listen to what it tells you


----------



## Philbilly2

What is this "other business" 

Separate Corp? Or same?

Same money...same business...


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> How the heck do I know what the percentage of use is going to be? Idk how much it's going to snow??


I posted in one of the 2 threads that I've linked to this one how to figure your average hourly truck cost. I think it was in the first thread I linked.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> Not to come off wrong, but if you have an actual business (hoping you do with more than one truck) you need to invest in some accounting software.
> 
> It will make you more money than you pay for it if you input properly and listen to what it tells you


What kind of software? Like something to put my recipts into you mean? I'm stupid when it comes to this stuff


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> What kind of software? Like something to put my recipts into you mean? I'm stupid when it comes to this stuff


Quickbooks


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> What is this "other business"
> 
> Separate Corp? Or same?
> 
> Same money...same business...


It's totally separate


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> It's totally separate


How do you share a truck?

Do you rent/ lease from one Corp to the other?


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> How do you share a truck?
> 
> Do you rent/ lease from one Corp to the other?


What????


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> What????


You said that the truck is hard to figure as it is also used for your other business...

How do you share this truck? Is it a donation? Or do you rent the truck from one Corp to the other and write off the rent?


----------



## m_ice

Elite Snow Removal said:


> What????


Someone has to own that truck
You? Business #1? Business #2?
Either way if someone uses it other then the owner they would be leasing it from the owner _____% of the time=operating cost of that truck (short version)


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> You said that the truck is hard to figure as it is also used for your other business...
> 
> How do you share this truck? Is it a donation? Or do you rent the truck from one Corp to the other and write off the rent?


It's a farm business so I think it is deprecated through that idk


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> It's a farm business so I think it is deprecated through that idk


What???


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> What???


Lol I don't know what the heck you are talking about. I told you what my other business was. I have a farm business and a snow removal business


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Lol I don't know what the heck you are talking about. I told you what my other business was. I have a farm business and a snow removal business


Yeah... I get it. I have a few businesses myself...

I rent things from all of them to each other all the time.

You need a good accountant ASAP...


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Philbilly2 said:


> You need a good accountant ASAP...


About 4 years ago would be a good timeline for "ASAP"


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> Yeah... I get it. I have a few businesses myself...
> 
> I rent things from all of them to each other all the time.
> 
> You need a good accountant ASAP...


Ughh.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Ughh.


None of us said this was going to be easy or fun.


----------



## jonniesmooth

EWSplow said:


> Here's an idea: you've plowed it and you know how long it takes. You charge the same next time, but it takes less time, so you're essentially making more.


^^^^^I agree. Don't think of it as charging more per hour. Think of it as making the same as you made with the V plow, but in less time now. It may be hard to come up with equivalent pricing if you don't have years of experience to gauge it.
Big fan of hourly pricing here. 
I don't see my customers understanding per push set prices of $200/ push when they used to pay $80 for an hour, because it has to be $200 to cover for the 10"+ storms with 50 mph winds , that the hourly would be $700. It obviously works for a bunch of people.
I've never understood incrementally priced (tiered) plowing either. I mean, I get it, but who wants to argue about how much snow fell in any given area? Again, if it works for you, great.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

John_DeereGreen said:


> None of us said this was going to be easy or fun.


Lol YEA.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

jonniesmooth said:


> ^^^^^I agree. Don't think of it as charging more per hour. Think of it as making the same as you made with the V plow, but in less time now. It may be hard to come up with equivalent pricing if you don't have years of experience to gauge it.
> Big fan of hourly pricing here.
> I don't see my customers understanding per push set prices of $200/ push when they used to pay $80 for an hour, because it has to be $200 to cover for the 10"+ storms with 50 mph winds , that the hourly would be $700. It obviously works for a bunch of people.
> I've never understood incrementally priced (tiered) plowing either. I mean, I get it, but who wants to argue about how much snow fell in any given area? Again, if it works for you, great.


I do tiered pricing on all my residentials. Works great for me


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

So how do you “rent” things from yourself. How does that work


----------



## JMHConstruction

You need to sit down with a CPA and get these businesses set up correctly. The first time doing this will cost some $$, but it will be worth every penny as time goes on. You need to set up your companies as some kind of business entity, and get different bank accounts for everything, and NOTHING should cross paths without a rental or lease agreement. Paper trails for everything.

If you've been in business for 4 years, quickbooks could have easily answered all your operating cost questions. A profit and loss statement would give you every bit of information needed to know your numbers.

As far as the truck is concerned, here is an example. I personally own my truck. I lease it to my business for $X per month. This makes my personal income tax higher, but works best in the long run. The company pays for all gas, maintenance, insurance and repairs. For some companies it may be better for the company to buy the truck outright, ask your accountant.


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Ughh.


I feel the same way.


----------



## JMHConstruction

Elite Snow Removal said:


> So how do you "rent" things from yourself. How does that work


Rental agreement, and pay whoever owns what you're renting fair market rates.


----------



## Philbilly2

JMHConstruction said:


> You need to sit down with a CPA and get these businesses set up correctly. The first time doing this will cost some $$, but it will be worth every penny as time goes on. You need to set up your companies as some kind of business entity, and get different bank accounts for everything, and NOTHING should cross paths without a rental or lease agreement. Paper trails for everything.
> 
> If you've been in business for 4 years, quickbooks could have easily answered all your operating cost questions. A profit and loss statement would give you every bit of information needed to know your numbers.
> 
> As far as the truck is concerned, here is an example. I personally own my truck. I lease it to my business for $X per month. This makes my personal income tax higher, but works best in the long run. The company pays for all gas, maintenance, insurance and repairs. For some companies it may be better for the company to buy the truck outright, ask your accountant.


Thumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs Up


----------



## jonniesmooth

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I really don't use much for book keeping I guess. I just add up my recipes at the end of the year and put my snow removal stuff in one pile and my other business stuff in another pile and give the numbers to my tax lady


Check out Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University. You need to do a budget every month, before the month starts .


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> You need to sit down with a CPA and get these businesses set up correctly. The first time doing this will cost some $$, but it will be worth every penny as time goes on. You need to set up your companies as some kind of business entity, and get different bank accounts for everything, and NOTHING should cross paths without a rental or lease agreement. Paper trails for everything.
> 
> If you've been in business for 4 years, quickbooks could have easily answered all your operating cost questions. A profit and loss statement would give you every bit of information needed to know your numbers.
> 
> As far as the truck is concerned, here is an example. I personally own my truck. I lease it to my business for $X per month. This makes my personal income tax higher, but works best in the long run. The company pays for all gas, maintenance, insurance and repairs. For some companies it may be better for the company to buy the truck outright, ask your accountant.


I do have my own accts for both businesses. Wouldn't my tax lady know all this crap. Wth do I pay her for. I know she filed all my snow removal stuff with my farm stuff for the last 4 yrs and I don't know why. I told her it needs to be by itself starting this year. Had a problem getting a loan because it was all filed together and the usda is closed for the shut down. All of my blades would be usda property if I defaulted on my loan because it's considered equipment. ****s kinda a mess ughh


----------



## JMHConstruction

In all honesty, it sounds like you need a new accountant. That said, you are still the business owner, you need to know this as well. My accountant sees my business a few times a year, I see it every day.


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> So how do you "rent" things from yourself. How does that work


You are not renting them from yourself. Your company or corp is renting them from you.

You are looking at it the wrong way. You are a shareholder in a Corp.

You need to speak with an accountant.


----------



## JMHConstruction

It will also save you money when you can print everything from quickbooks and hand it to the tax person. Less work for them means more money in your pocket


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> In all honesty, it sounds like you need a new accountant. That said, you are still the business owner, you need to know this as well. My accountant sees my business a few times a year, I see it every day.


I send her my stuff once a year to do my taxes and that's it


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I do have my own accts for both businesses. Wouldn't my tax lady know all this crap. Wth do I pay her for. I know she filed all my snow removal stuff with my farm stuff for the last 4 yrs and I don't know why. I told her it needs to be by itself starting this year. Had a problem getting a loan because it was all filed together and the usda is closed for the shut down. All of my blades would be usda property if I defaulted on my loan because it's considered equipment. ****s kinda a mess ughh


You need an new accountant!


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> It will also save you money when you can print everything from quickbooks and hand it to the tax person. Less work for them means more money in your pocket


Honestly she is super cheap to have taxes done. I think the company charges me $160 per business. Maybe less


----------



## JMHConstruction

Philbilly2 said:


> You are not renting them from yourself. Your company or corp is renting them from you.
> 
> You are looking at it the wrong way. You are a shareholder in a Corp.
> 
> You need to speak with an accountant.


Pretend you don't even know your company, what would you rent your tools, trucks, etc. to a random company


----------



## Philbilly2

JMHConstruction said:


> Pretend you don't even know your company, what would you rent your tools, trucks, etc. to a random company


Own is what he means


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Ugh this is a complete mess now I feel like. Guess I’d better be calling her tomorrow


----------



## JMHConstruction

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Honestly she is super cheap to have taxes done. I think the company charges me $160 per business. Maybe less


Should be 160 then since she filed them as one


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> Should be 160 then since she filed them as one


Yea you are right on that. My wife has her do some stuff to.


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Honestly she is super cheap to have taxes done. I think the company charges me $160 per business. Maybe less


Tripping over dollars to pick up pennies...


----------



## JMHConstruction

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Ugh this is a complete mess now I feel like. Guess I'd better be calling her tomorrow


Plus side is you found PSThumbs Up

And you made this comment


Elite Snow Removal said:


> I'm stupid when it comes to this stuff


We will help as much as we can, just don't get angry when you don't like what you hear. Thick skin


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> Tripping over dollars to pick up pennies...


Thanks rub it in


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> Plus side is you found PSThumbs Up
> 
> And you made this comment
> 
> We will help as much as we can, just don't get angry when you don't like what you hear. Thick skin


Thanks man


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Thanks rub it in


Not rubbing in. Attempting to help you.

Many of us have all been there. I have had my accountant tell me to stop plowing snow as it costs me money to do so. Live and learn.

Not saying that is your case, everyone has a different operation cost. Mine cannot handle the "industy standard"


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

I don’t even know what to ask her when I call her in the morning. 
What business owns the truck. 
Why the heck she files the businesses together 
I need to ask a local cpa. Good thing I move snow for one. I’ll be calling him and hiring him tomorrow I think


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> Not rubbing in. Attempting to help you.
> 
> Many of us have all been there. I have had my accountant tell me to stop plowing snow as it costs me money to do so. Live and learn.
> 
> Not saying that is your case, everyone has a different operation cost. Mine cannot handle the "industy standard"


I know I know your not rubbing it in.


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I don't even know what to ask her when I call her in the morning.
> What business owns the truck.
> Why the heck she files the businesses together
> I need to ask a local cpa. Good thing I move snow for one. I'll be calling him and hiring him tomorrow I think


If the taxes are filed together... it is all one business.

Every business should have it's own EIN (employer identififaion number). That is the number that your accountant will file that businesses taxes under.

The more separated businesses that you have... the more tax returns that you will need to file.

You will also have to file yet another for your personal taxes too... great fun.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> If the taxes are filed together... it is all one business.
> 
> Every business should have it's own EIN (employer identififaion number). That is the number that your accountant will file that businesses taxes under.
> 
> The more separated businesses that you have... the more tax returns that you will need to file.
> 
> You will also have to file yet another for your personal taxes too... great fun.


I just have 1 EIN number and that's for the snow removal. She files a scedual F I think for the farm but I think everything is filed under the farm for some reason


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I just have 1 EIN number and that's for the snow removal. She files a scedual F I think for the farm but I think everything is filed under the farm for some reason


Farm does not have a EIN???

So filed under your social as an owner/operator?


----------



## jonniesmooth

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I just have 1 EIN number and that's for the snow removal. She files a scedual F I think for the farm but I think everything is filed under the farm for some reason


My friend has a grain/ beef farm, he also has a body shop and a spray foam insulation business. Everything is run under the farm operation. For what it's worth.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> Farm does not have a EIN???
> 
> So filed under your social as an owner/operator?


My farm does not have EIN no just the snow removal. Wife said everything is filed under the farm as long as she know


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

jonniesmooth said:


> My friend has a grain/ beef farm, he also has a body shop and a spray foam insulation business. Everything is run under the farm operation. For what it's worth.


Yea idk why it's like that but it is. I assume she knows more about the crap than I do. I'll assume I'm right about that


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Honestly she is super cheap to have taxes done. I think the company charges me $160 per business. Maybe less


I just texted this exact thing to Phil...Accountants are a perfect example of cheap isn't good and good isn't cheap


----------



## BossPlow2010

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I send her my stuff once a year to do my taxes and that's it


Should be doing everything quarterly, I have my CPA's cell phone, I can text her whenever I need to, she saves me big money but her services aren't cheap either.



Philbilly2 said:


> You need an new accountant!


What he said.


Elite Snow Removal said:


> Honestly she is super cheap to have taxes done. I think the company charges me $160 per business. Maybe less


160 bucks for the entire year? 
You must be doing a whole lot on your part, like mileage, catorgizing expenses, bookkeeping, etc


Elite Snow Removal said:


> Ugh this is a complete mess now I feel like. Guess I'd better be calling her tomorrow


First solution in getting help is realizing there's a problem, don't be surprised if you owe the irs a ton of money.


Elite Snow Removal said:


> I don't even know what to ask her when I call her in the morning.
> What business owns the truck.
> Why the heck she files the businesses together
> I need to ask a local cpa. Good thing I move snow for one. I'll be calling him and hiring him tomorrow I think


Create a list of questions you're going to ask, see what type of business entity you are, sole proprietor, llp, LLC, s Corp, c corp, co-op, b corp there's a bunch, SBC.gov and your CPA can help you decide which is best.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

BossPlow2010 said:


> Should be doing everything quarterly, I have my CPA's cell phone, I can text her whenever I need to, she saves me big money but her services aren't cheap either.
> 
> What he said.
> 
> 160 bucks for the entire year?
> You must be doing a whole lot on your part, like mileage, catorgizing expenses, bookkeeping, etc
> 
> First solution in getting help is realizing there's a problem, don't be surprised if you owe the irs a ton of money.
> 
> Create a list of questions you're going to ask, see what type of business entity you are, sole proprietor, llp, LLC, s Corp, c corp, co-op, b corp there's a bunch, SBC.gov and your CPA can help you decide which is best.


I'm a LLC on the snow side and my wife is part owner on the farm side. I figure out all my recipts at the end of the year so I should be doing that right now I guess. That's what I do then I put them in catagories and email it to her


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

I don’t have any if very much profit at all on my other business as I started that about the same time as my snow business. I have huge losses on that every year. This year will be the first I will show any positive sales/ income. I think I showed a few thousand of income last year. Snow removal is about the same. Didn’t have a lot of profit last year but showed I did make some


----------



## JMHConstruction

https://quickbooks.intuit.com/desktop/

Quickbooks Premier


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> https://quickbooks.intuit.com/desktop/
> 
> Quickbooks Premier


So do I need to get that for both business? I buy it twice?


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Oh I don’t have the internet at home either so idk how that’s going to work?


----------



## JMHConstruction

Honestly I'm not sure how that works. You have to pay for "multiple" companies, but I'm not sure if it's full price.


----------



## JMHConstruction

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Oh I don't have the internet at home either so idk how that's going to work?


Most of it does not require internet service. Just to reconcile with your bank accounts to make sure everything is matching up. Might be able to use the hot spot on your phone, not sure.

How are you running a business in this day and age without internet?:laugh:


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> Most of it does not require internet service. Just to reconcile with your bank accounts to make sure everything is matching up. Might be able to use the hot spot on your phone, not sure.
> 
> How are you running a business in this day and age without internet?:laugh:


You don't need the internet to run a snow removal business. If you do I guess I found a way you don't.


----------



## EWSplow

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I don't have any if very much profit at all on my other business as I started that about the same time as my snow business. I have huge losses on that every year. This year will be the first I will show any positive sales/ income. I think I showed a few thousand of income last year. Snow removal is about the same. Didn't have a lot of profit last year but showed I did make some


There's an old trick: The business that has a higher profit pays the other business for services, rent, etc. Something your accountant should know.


----------



## leigh

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Well I've been doing it for four years this way and I've been making money so I'm doing something right


 That's great,but keep on learning and applying what you learn.You're flying by the seat of your pants a bit. I think back when I started and I knew nothing at all.I went by what a landscaper I subbed out to said about his pricing,"3$ a minute. Sounded good to me. Your route is overloaded,but hey, if you can get away with it knock yourself out this year. If you've got very little competition raise you rates 10,20,30% + and maybe you'll lose a few and have shorter routes(6-8hr) and make the same or even more.And if you meet with the commercial client ,don't ask for more, just tell him and explain why. They should be happy to have there lot plowed in a timely manner.Oh,and don't try to go toe to toe with these guys, they're stone cold killers at the keyboard!:hammerhead:


----------



## jomama45

Simply put, find a new accountant. An accountant who cares. One who is willing to go to bat for you if/when the IRS is going to audit your business(es). I pay my accountant about double per month what you claim to pay your's per year. Some of the best money I've spent for the last 20 years...................


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

leigh said:


> That's great,but keep on learning and applying what you learn.You're flying by the seat of your pants a bit. I think back when I started and I knew nothing at all.I went by what a landscaper I subbed out to said about his pricing,"3$ a minute. Sounded good to me. Your route is overloaded,but hey, if you can get away with it knock yourself out this year. If you've got very little competition raise you rates 10,20,30% + and maybe you'll lose a few and have shorter routes(6-8hr) and make the same or even more.And if you meet with the commercial client ,don't ask for more, just tell him and explain why. They should be happy to have there lot plowed in a timely manner.Oh,and don't try to go toe to toe with these guys, they're stone cold killers at the keyboard!:hammerhead:


There's a few of snow removal guys around my area but I have the most residential clients in town.
I know these guys are hardcore on here lol but that's fine with me. I don't like sugar coated sh*t and that's the way I am to. Tell it how it is and if you don't like to bad I guess.


----------



## leigh

JMHConstruction said:


> Honestly I'm not sure how that works. You have to pay for "multiple" companies, but I'm not sure if it's full price.


 No you don't.You can have multiple businesses under one licensed qb .This is the best move I made.I'm in and out of my accountant in 45 minutes for my business and personal taxes.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

BossPlow2010 said:


> Create a list of questions you're going to ask, see what type of business entity you are, sole proprietor, llp, LLC, s Corp, c corp, co-op, b corp there's a bunch, SBC.gov and your CPA can help you decide which is best.


So what type of questions do I need to be asking her? I'm sorry but I don't know the first thing about tax stuff that's why I pay her to go through my stuff


----------



## leigh

Elite Snow Removal said:


> So what type of questions do I need to be asking her? I'm sorry but I don't know the first thing about tax stuff that's why I pay her to go through my stuff


 1st ask her to tell you what you can do to help her job go smoothly.The more accurate you are and organized gives her the time to concentrate on a good preparation without digging through a shoe box full of receipts. quickbooks provides a concise one page report of all your company financials for the year.Only as accurate as what you enter though. LLC and sole proprietors are both taxed the same ,they're "pass through",all the money earned is taxed on your personal return.


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## Elite Snow Removal

leigh said:


> 1st ask her to tell you what you can do to help her job go smoothly.The more accurate you are and organized gives her the time to concentrate on a good preparation without digging through a shoe box full of receipts. quickbooks provides a concise one page report of all your company financials for the year.Only as accurate as what you enter though. LLC and sole proprietors are both taxed the same ,they're "pass through",all the money earned is taxed on your personal return.


But she doesn't go through a shoebox full of recipts I DO. I do all the paper work and email it to her and she does the rest.


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## JMHConstruction

leigh said:


> No you don't.You can have multiple businesses under one licensed qb .This is the best move I made.I'm in and out of my accountant in 45 minutes for my business and personal taxes.


Good to know. I just assumed the multiple users fees were for multiple businesses.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

leigh said:


> 1st ask her to tell you what you can do to help her job go smoothly.The more accurate you are and organized gives her the time to concentrate on a good preparation without digging through a shoe box full of receipts. quickbooks provides a concise one page report of all your company financials for the year.Only as accurate as what you enter though. LLC and sole proprietors are both taxed the same ,they're "pass through",all the money earned is taxed on your personal return.


I have everything all categorized for her.gas, diesel, insurance, phone, heat, lights exc exc


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## BossPlow2010

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I have everything all categorized for her.gas, diesel, insurance, phone, heat, lights exc exc


2018 business mileage?
Surly you use a computer to send invoices, that costs money, paper costs money a pen to write with costs money, 
Why are diesel and gas separate?


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## Mark Oomkes

BossPlow2010 said:


> 2018 business mileage?


What if he's expensing repairs and maintenance?


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## Elite Snow Removal

BossPlow2010 said:


> 2018 business mileage?


I'm not sure how we do the mileage to be honest


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## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if he's expensing repairs and maintenance?


Yes if I have oil changes tires batteries I put that in a repairs column


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## JMHConstruction

I would find someone else. The accountant should be asking you these questions, and telling you what would work best for your company.

I'd start fresh with a new CPA. Have them restructure you if needed, and have them tell you what you need to do and how.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I'm not sure how we do the mileage to be honest


If you're expensing repairs and maintenance you don't have to.


----------



## leigh

Mark Oomkes said:


> If you're expensing repairs and maintenance you don't have to.


 I do the expensing parts etc also. Your trucks start getting older it works out better.I think once you choose one you have to stick to it, at least for that vehicle.


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## BossPlow2010

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if he's expensing repairs and maintenance?


Then he'd probably want to do it the way that had the greatest deduction.


----------



## leigh

BossPlow2010 said:


> Then he'd probably want to do it the way that had the greatest deduction.


 That's why it would help if he had the mileage numbers and expenses,then the accountant can compare.Sort of like doing your personal taxes, itemized deductions or taking the standard deduction.


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## Elite Snow Removal

I watched a quick video on quickbooks and that looks pretty neat how it works. So every time I go to the gas pump let say and run my card it shows up on my phone and I can just tell it to go to a certian category then? What if I pay with cash? Obviously that won’t work so what do I do there?


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## Aerospace Eng

I fon’t plow snow professionally, I am salaried at my day job, and my side business (hangars is relatively simple. I have only occasionally used an accountant.

With that said, it sounds like you currently have a tax preparer, not an accountant. You need an accountant.

A good accountant advises you on how to set up and structure your business(es) for liability and tax reasons, asks questions about your situation and goals, etc.

Is it better to pay you a salary or take disbursements? Pay out profits or retain cash, which depreciation schedules to use, and why, etc.?

A good accountant will advise and explain things to you so that you understand at a 30,000 foot level. And you need to understand, not just turn over decision making to them.


----------



## BUFF

Mark Oomkes said:


> If you're expensing repairs and maintenance you don't have to.


I was told by my accountant, "If the vehicle isn't owned by the company and your accounting for the legal allowance for mileage the vehicle is used for business use all fuel, repairs and maintenance is out of my pocket since the vehicle is titled under my name. The mileage claimed on your taxes is intended to cover cost to run, repair and maintain the vehicle.


----------



## JMHConstruction

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I watched a quick video on quickbooks and that looks pretty neat how it works. So every time I go to the gas pump let say and run my card it shows up on my phone and I can just tell it to go to a certian category then? What if I pay with cash? Obviously that won't work so what do I do there?


I don't pay cash for anything in the business. If I do (buying used equipment), I take out the exact amount from the bank, then record it as coming from whatever account I pull from. Debt cards I fill out checks, but instead of a check number I write "Debit" comes from the same account as the checks.

The program quickbooks pushes is their online quickbooks. They have an app, and other things to make life easier. You also pay monthly for it. The desktop version is MUCH cheaper in the long run. You may not get as much tech stuff, but it does the same thing when it's said and done.


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## Elite Snow Removal

JMHConstruction said:


> I don't pay cash for anything in the business. If I do (buying used equipment), I take out the exact amount from the bank, then record it as coming from whatever account I pull from. Debt cards I fill out checks, but instead of a check number I write "Debit" comes from the same account as the checks.
> 
> The program quickbooks pushes is their online quickbooks. They have an app, and other things to make life easier. You also pay monthly for it. The desktop version is MUCH cheaper in the long run. You may not get as much tech stuff, but it does the same thing when it's said and done.


My wife just told me tonight her brother used it for the first time and recoded 1000 recipts in an evening or something like that. Said we can use the program if I want to


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## tpendagast

14 pages in one day?

We started with pull plow and ended with QuickBooks and accountants?

Strange things happen in the 12 hours I’m at work


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## BUFF

tpendagast said:


> 14 pages in one day?
> 
> We started with pull plow and ended with QuickBooks and accountants?
> 
> Strange things happen in the 12 hours I'm at work


I made it aboot 4pages in and skipped ahead for the last 2 pages......
But it's all good stuff........


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

BUFF said:


> I made it aboot 4pages in and skipped ahead for the last 2 pages......
> But it's all good stuff........


Ooff yea what a day. That's all I got for today so I'll leave u with a cucumber recipe and my new hourly snow plow machine

2 English cucumbers
1 tablespoon kosher salt
1/2 red onion sliced
1 clove garlic minced
3/4 cup sour cream
2 tablespoons apple cider vinegar
2 teaspoons fresh dill
1 teaspoon sugar substitute
1 teaspoon black pepper


----------



## BUFF

So based on the few pages I read there's a bit of a disconnect in how people do business and invoice for their services TM, per call or seasonal with the last two being quoted upfront.
This is strictly my opinion and how I charge for services:
Time and materials is only used when working on projects that are exploratory and you have no idea of the infrastructure your dealing with. TM is also an easy way to bid work you have no true understanding of the job and of what it takes to run a business. TM also can be challenged by the customer if they think they're getting hosed or are auditing their expenses due to they aren't consistent. They also can't accrue for the expenses since the charges vary.
Per call makes the service provider quote the work upfront, in snow removal it's incremental amounts of snow when you arrive on site. This cost is easy to figure oot once you understand cost/overhead, productivity of your equipment and what the market will bare.
Using average snowfalls for the area along with expense history a your customer can accrue for the expenses pretty close.
Seasonal requires the service provider / contractor to really understand and roll the dice when it comes to annual snowfall averages along with how many salt runs per season. Some years you make it others not so mulch but in the long run the averages work providing you understand cost/overhead, productivity of your equipment and what the market will bare. Seasonal accounts are great for the customer since they know the cost upfront and can accrue for the expense for the duration of the contract. Seasonal are great for the contractor since they cover the cost for materials and help cover the gap between seasons. 
Where I'm at seasonal contracts aren't that well received for snow work by customers. The reason being is our 10yr average for snow per year is 60" but our snowfall amounts vary so mulch form year to year meaning we could only get 36" one year and 140" the following. The lower snow years they fell they're getting hosed and higher snow years they're making out in theory but the contractor has to accommodate for the low and hi snowfall years in there pricing which is the hard sell. 
I used to do sub work and was paid per job not hour, the reason being was if I was going to invest in equipment to be efficient and more productive on site I should be paid accordingly. I'm not saying a guy would milk the clock but when you can clear an acre an hour in 20-35minutes with a pickup depending on accumulation (1-5") and they going rate for an acre is $140 per push for lower accumulations I should be paid $100 for being a sub which gives the contractor I'm subbing for about 30% profit. I'm being paid a fair rate and the contractor is making 30%.
Also my shovel crew was paid by the job rather than per hour, found it to be motivational and when they could make $60/hr and I make 30-35% on top of that it works for everyone. 

So the question was how to charge for adding a pull plow per hour. The answer is what you need to cover your cost / overhead. I also believe you're leaving money on the table and can be challenged when it comes to invoices if you charge per hour. You're making an investment to be more productive and increasing your billing cost per hour may sound reasonable but from a customers perspective it doesn't make sense and would be a had sell.


----------



## tpendagast

BUFF said:


> I made it aboot 4pages in and skipped ahead for the last 2 pages......
> But it's all good stuff........


Same


----------



## tpendagast

Basically 
If you’re the prime contractor 
You’re always trying to beat your own price and meet quality control.

If you’re the sub you generally get paid by the hour although if you agree to do jobs for a set price the prime will live you.

If you’re a sub with a pull plow you’re worth more money than a guy without on a Lowe’s, but not on a gas station.
So the equipment is situational. 

Prime contractors know generally how long the jobs take (ie sub takes 3 hours and gets paid $60/hr) 
If you offer to sub and do it for $150 but you use a pull plow and complete the job in an hour and a half instead of three, the prime saves $30 and you make $100 an hour instead of sixty


Additionally in an 8 hour run (as long as you’re out on the right lots) you can take in $1200 to the other guys $480, AND you were $150 cheaper overall for the prime, than using another contractor with less efficient equipment.

As for loaders 
They are only more efficient PLOWING if the snow is deep and heavy.
Can they stack and load?
Sure 
They’re also more expensive both to buy and operate 

However, 
Plowing is plowing 
Stacking and loading/haul off are additional and separate services. 
When comparing a loader to a WAP (wide area plow) the loader comes out ahead on over two inches and/or a looong run (where lots of snow can build up) 
On a moderate lot, 2 inches is nearly identical with the equipment mentioned 
Slight edge to the truck because it can transport faster/easier to multiple medium properties. 

Nothing busts blizzards like a good loader tho.


----------



## jonniesmooth

leigh said:


> That's great,but keep on learning and applying what you learn.You're flying by the seat of your pants a bit. I think back when I started and I knew nothing at all.I went by what a landscaper I subbed out to said about his pricing,"3$ a minute. Sounded good to me. Your route is overloaded,but hey, if you can get away with it knock yourself out this year. If you've got very little competition raise you rates 10,20,30% + and maybe you'll lose a few and have shorter routes(6-8hr) and make the same or even more.And if you meet with the commercial client ,don't ask for more, just tell him and explain why. They should be happy to have there lot plowed in a timely manner.Oh,and don't try to go toe to toe with these guys, they're stone cold killers at the keyboard!:hammerhead:


Yeah, they were talking about increased productivity, so you can do more work and make more money in the same amount of time.
And I'm screaming, No no no . I want to get better equipment and do what I do now in less time and make the same money. Cuz I'm in the same boat, spread way to thin. But I'm getting my second guy to step up and learn to run the truck and tractor. No more shovel monkey for him.


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> So do I need to get that for both business? I buy it twice?


No, you can run more than one company. They will be completely separate files in the same program.


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I have everything all categorized for her.gas, diesel, insurance, phone, heat, lights exc exc


So you do have these numbers, they are just jumbled together between the two businesses


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## Mr.Markus

TLDR


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## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Oh I don't have the internet at home either so idk how that's going to work?


If you have the desktop version, you will only need the internet if you do payroll from it.

Other than that, it can run independent. You will have to backup your file and email or save to a flash drive to give it to your accountant.


----------



## Philbilly2

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I'm a LLC on the snow side and my wife is part owner on the farm side. I figure out all my recipts at the end of the year so I should be doing that right now I guess. That's what I do then I put them in catagories and email it to her


So let's say we keep everything together for the time being...

Can you get to a number that is EVERYTHING that you have taken a cent out of your bank account on in a year? If you can get to that number, we can get you to some type of operation cost.


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## Philbilly2

Also food for thought...

You say that you have an LLC for the plowing side. But your books appear to intertwine.

This is a business disaster if you get sued. You have a “corporate veil” in place with your LLC to keep the liabilities separate from your home and farm. But your financial bookkeeping will give any half @ss lawyer the go ahead to clean you out on a personal/farm end.

As assicine as it may sound, I write a check from my construction company to my property holding LLC every month. I physically take that check to the bank and deposit it in the property LLC account and enter it in the property LLC quickbooks file. Seem stupid... yes. But, between my lawyer and my accountant, they have both advised that that paper trail needs to be there every month to keep the proverbial “separation between church and state”


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## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> I was told by my accountant, "If the vehicle isn't owned by the company and your accounting for the legal allowance for mileage the vehicle is used for business use all fuel, repairs and maintenance is out of my pocket since the vehicle is titled under my name. The mileage claimed on your taxes is intended to cover cost to run, repair and maintain the vehicle.
> 
> View attachment 188307


Correct...and once you start with mileage, you have to stick with it for the life of the vehicle. At least that is my understanding.

And vice versa.

We've always expensed R&M. Or is M&R?


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> 14 pages in one day?
> 
> We started with pull plow and ended with QuickBooks and accountants?
> 
> Strange things happen in the 12 hours I'm at work


And the OP stuck it out without throwing a temper tantrum.

That's probably more amazing than anything else.

Have to hand it to Elite, he's smart enough to know that he doesn't know and does need help.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Regarding the CPA\accountant...paying more isn't always best. And a CPA isn't absolutely necessary. 

I think I told this story recently.

I had a CPA several years back, prepared our taxes, financials, etc. I was paying him good money on a monthly basis. Well, he made partner in the company and his hourly rate went up something like $80\hour. But I was getting the same reports, numbers, advice, tax filings, etc as when he was $80\hour less. 

I switched to an accounting company that specializes in small businesses, family owned businesses and does a bunch of other lawn monkey books. My accountant is not a CPA, his father is, but they attend the same tax seminars, etc that a CPA does. And in reality, his advice has been far better than the partner CPA's advice. Since they do other lawn monkey books, once a year they run a side by side comparison using different numbers (obviously no names) with companies similar in size. He's the one that showed me my maintenance and repairs were killing me. Started running reports (which I do now as well) on specific trucks and pieces of equipment that were costing me more than they were worth. And that didn't include downtime, running back and forth to the repair shop or lost production. 

So in summary...more expensive is not always better.


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Mark Oomkes said:


> And the OP stuck it out without throwing a temper tantrum.
> 
> That's probably more amazing than anything else.
> 
> Have to hand it to Elite, he's smart enough to know that he doesn't know and does need help.


Thanks mark


----------



## Elite Snow Removal

Philbilly2 said:


> So you do have these numbers, they are just jumbled together between the two businesses


I have them spectate but I don't know how accurate they will be. I'll have to look at my file


----------



## FredG

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Thanks mark


 You only got four years in, PS is a world of knowledge if you can take the way it's given. Most Guys come on here just hearing what they want to.

Sometime it takes questions to get to the answer your looking for. Hell I will be 61 come Feb and these jokers are still teaching me something. If I knew what I know today establishing a successful biz would of been a lot easier. Hardknox is good but a few pointers a long the way is good too. Learning things the hard way is not the best way.

Yes Oomkes is right you held up good. Good Luck


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## John_DeereGreen

Good job on sticking it out. Your legitimate bottom line will thank you for it.


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> If you're a sub with a pull plow you're worth more money than a guy without on a Lowe's, but not on a gas station.
> So the equipment is situational.














tpendagast said:


> As for loaders
> They are only more efficient PLOWING if the snow is deep and heavy.












We have multiple accounts that we plow with loaders every single time it snows. Because if we didn't, I'd need at least twice as many trucks with twice as many operators with four times as many plows and twice as much insurance, repair, fuel, etc costs as if we didn't use loaders every single time.


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## FredG

Discombobulation. :laugh:


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## John_DeereGreen

I can’t imagine pulling loaders off of the sites we have them on and replacing them with trucks. I’d want to jump off a cliff.


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## JMHConstruction

The company I sub for has loader on their big lots. They push with an inch of snow..


----------



## leigh

Mark Oomkes said:


> We have multiple accounts that we plow with loaders every single time it snows. Because if we didn't, I'd need at least twice as many trucks with twice as many operators with four times as many plows and twice as much insurance, repair, fuel, etc costs as if we didn't use loaders every single time.


But what if your trucks had 16' pull plows ? I sense a "game changer" chant starting.:redbounce::bluebounce::terribletowelayup


----------



## Mark Oomkes

leigh said:


> But what if your trucks had 16' pull plows ? I sense a "game changer" chant starting.:redbounce::bluebounce::terribletowelayup


Hate to break it to you...we've had 16' back blades for over a decade.


----------



## tpendagast

Mark Oomkes said:


> We have multiple accounts that we plow with loaders every single time it snows. Because if we didn't, I'd need at least twice as many trucks with twice as many operators with four times as many plows and twice as much insurance, repair, fuel, etc costs as if we didn't use loaders every single time.


So if you have a guy with a pull plow doing the job twice as fast as a guy with only the front plow.
You wouldn't rather have him?

Pay one sub $60 x 3 hours ($180) vs Another $70x 1.5 ($105)
According to you, both sub contractors should get paid the same?
Why would anyone invest in an ebling or one of the other knock offs then?

With that logic all employees should get paid the same rate too, right?

As for pull plows vs loaders in light snow , as I already said .. if it's a long push where you're collecting a lot of snow regardless of accumulation or therecis heavy accumulation the loader comes out ahead.
If you're stacking the pile the loader comes out ahead 
Light accumulation in a medium sized parking lot the truck with the expandable wing pull plow is statistically doing it just as fast, then it makes up the time transporting to other jobs. 
If they are all in the same geveral area on a tight route, then it doesn't matter because you're not going to get far or get much over 30 mph transporting anyway. 
However the loader costs more to own and operate (per hour) than the truck.

Generally you see loaders billing out for twice what a truck would. 
That's not just because they do more and yay we have extra profit! 
It's also because they cost considerably more.

The ratio for extra expense on a truck with a big rear plow isn't nearly the same, so in certain limited situations it's better.

It's not a replacement for a loader but it can definitely help you manage more parking lots without putting a loader on every single block.
You can short route a loader and then have it "catch up" on near by properties to help finish using it where/when it's needed most.

That's not horse hockey that's how that equipment is being used, why they have been made and why people are buying them.

I still remember arguing with people over how ztrs were faster on sports fields than ground masters with wings... oh no I was crazy...

All I do is collect data and compare results 
It's not opinion 
There's no spin 
Just results

If you typically get 2-3" storms (which is common in some areas) the truck with a wide area pull plow is a) worth more than a truck with a regular plow b) can get a larger lot done in similar time to a loader c) isn't worth putting on smaller lots that require maneuverability and d) struggles in deeper snow or longer pushes/larger masses of snow.

Oh and e) is considerably less expensive than a loader.

That's it.

In lake effect land you're probably seeing accumulations happening faster than the pull plow can keep up with and/or manage effectively ; 2" an hour instead of 2" that night; and I already mentioned that was the case.


----------



## tpendagast

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hate to break it to you...we've had 16' back blades for over a decade.


And they weren't worth having for that decade over just an 8'-9' plow?

No benefit what so ever?


----------



## John_DeereGreen




----------



## leigh

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hate to break it to you...we've had 16' back blades for over a decade.


 Oh boy, I'm losing my dry humor/sarcastic abilities. I better get off here and get some work done.


----------



## BossPlow2010

Philbilly2 said:


> If you have the desktop version, you will only need the internet if you do payroll from it.
> 
> Other than that, it can run independent. You will have to backup your file and email or save to a flash drive to give it to your accountant.


The internet is beneficial for QB though as it allows you to update (free) and (paid versions) and also allows you to email invoices


----------



## leigh

John_DeereGreen said:


>


 Whats the matter,cat got your tongue?


----------



## Mike_PS

ok, this thread has been all over the place but good info, nonetheless, so let's get back to it...no need for the popcorn emoji or to stray off into anymore directions Thumbs Up


----------



## WIPensFan

Can someone sum up the answer to the original OP question?? Don’t feel like reading 15 pages. Thanks.


----------



## Philbilly2

BossPlow2010 said:


> The internet is beneficial for QB though as it allows you to update (free) and (paid versions) and also allows you to email invoices


I agree... OP does not have internet at home.


----------



## Philbilly2

WIPensFan said:


> Can someone sum up the answer to the original OP question?? .


yes


----------



## BossPlow2010

Holy smokes MJD didn’t make an appearance until page 15! 
Even he’s not going to read every post...


----------



## leigh

Elite Snow Removal said:


> im getting a shortiron pull plow in a week or two and I'm wondering how you are pricing you accounts when using one? Are you charging as much as u would for a loader since you are taking a lot more snow that a 8-9' blade? I am referring to hourly rate lots.
> Thanks





WIPensFan said:


> Can someone sum up the answer to the original OP question?? Don't feel like reading 15 pages. Thanks.


 Answer to OP - No


----------



## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> So if you have a guy with a pull plow doing the job twice as fast as a guy with only the front plow.
> You wouldn't rather have him?
> 
> Pay one sub $60 x 3 hours ($180) vs Another $70x 1.5 ($105)
> According to you, both sub contractors should get paid the same?
> Why would anyone invest in an ebling or one of the other knock offs then?


Huh?

You said equipment is situational. The 16' back plow isn't going to help on a gas station, only a large lot.

That's what I said horse hockey to. Now you changed the subject.



tpendagast said:


> if it's a long push where you're collecting a lot of snow regardless of accumulation or therecis heavy accumulation the loader comes out ahead.


Did you miss the part where it does the work of 2-3 trucks? Which means 1-2 more operators, 1-2 more trucks, 2-4 more plows, 2-3 times as much fuel, etc, etc, etc???



tpendagast said:


> Light accumulation in a medium sized parking lot the truck with the expandable wing pull plow is statistically doing it just as fast, then it makes up the time transporting to other jobs.


Not if you always do them with loaders. It isn't like anyone has 2-3 trucks, 2-3 operators to plow an account or route with on light snowfalls and just break out the loaders on the heavier snowfalls. This makes no sense.



tpendagast said:


> If they are all in the same geveral area on a tight route, then it doesn't matter because you're not going to get far or get much over 30 mph transporting anyway.


Except when you get to an account, you can do it in 1/2-2/3s less time. Travel time is somewhat moot at that point.



tpendagast said:


> However the loader costs more to own and operate (per hour) than the truck.


Does that loader cost 2-3 times MORE than 2-3 trucks, operators, fuel, plows, insurance, etc, etc, etc.

You can't compare a loader productivity to a truck's productivity. It's like comparing a skidsteer to a Cat 950.



tpendagast said:


> Generally you see loaders billing out for twice what a truck would.
> That's not just because they do more and yay we have extra profit!
> It's also because they cost considerably more.


Maybe in your area, but not around here. We've got a bunch of morons that decided they could charge truck rates with loaders because they are 2-3 times more productive.



tpendagast said:


> The ratio for extra expense on a truck with a big rear plow isn't nearly the same, so in certain limited situations it's better.


You know this how? Holy crap man...my grandfather loaned my dad money to buy a back plow in 1962 when he started because he couldn't be efficient without one. Back plows originated in Grand Rapids, pretty sure I know far more about them and their productivity than you could hope to.



tpendagast said:


> If you typically get 2-3" storms (which is common in some areas) the truck with a wide area pull plow is a) worth more than a truck with a regular plow


Never said it wasn't.



tpendagast said:


> b) can get a larger lot done in similar time to a loader


Debatable...too many variables to make a blanket statement.



tpendagast said:


> c) isn't worth putting on smaller lots that require maneuverability














tpendagast said:


> Oh and e) is considerably less expensive than a loader.


Again, this is not a blanket statement that is accurate.



tpendagast said:


> d) struggles in deeper snow or longer pushes/larger masses of snow.


How do you know this? Have you ever run a 16' back plow?



tpendagast said:


> In lake effect land you're probably seeing accumulations happening faster than the pull plow can keep up with and/or manage effectively ; 2" an hour instead of 2" that night; and I already mentioned that was the case.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> And they weren't worth having for that decade over just an 8'-9' plow?
> 
> No benefit what so ever?


Ummm...you do realize that 16' back blades haven't been out for much longer than that?

And one of the first 16' models was a disaster that broke truck frames because it was so heavy?

Sorry Ted\Ed, you ain't going to win on this one, because you are wrong, you just don't know it. And this comment proves it, because you don't even know how long they've been on the market.


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## Mark Oomkes

Michael J. Donovan said:


> ok, this thread has been all over the place but good info, nonetheless, so let's get back to it...no need for the popcorn emoji or to stray off into anymore directions Thumbs Up


I'm rather amazed it has stayed fairly on topic...other than the QB discussion.


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## Mark Oomkes

leigh said:


> Oh boy, I'm losing my dry humor/sarcastic abilities. I better get off here and get some work done.


Why?


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## tpendagast

Mark Oomkes said:


> Ummm...you do realize that 16' back blades haven't been out for much longer than that?
> 
> And one of the first 16' models was a disaster that broke truck frames because it was so heavy?
> 
> Sorry Ted\Ed, you ain't going to win on this one, because you are wrong, you just don't know it. And this comment proves it, because you don't even know how long they've been on the market.


I asked you a question...

That's what something written with a question mark after it means. It's a question... in that period of time, there has been no value to that peice of equipment?
The fact that other manufacturers are copying the design and adding it to their own lines of products means what?

The first truck mounted front plows weren't wonders of engineering in the beginning either you know.


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> I asked you a question...
> 
> That's what something written with a question mark after it means. It's a question... in that period of time, there has been no value to that peice of equipment?


Not really sure what you were asking...because there were 8' and 8'6" back plows before 16' back plows. There weren't 9' back plows.

Are you asking about the value of just a front plow or a back plow in addition to the front plow?



tpendagast said:


> The fact that other manufacturers are copying the design and adding it to their own lines of products means what?


It means there is a market for them...thought that was fairly obvious.



tpendagast said:


> The first truck mounted front plows weren't wonders of engineering in the beginning either you know.


They weren't?

Thing is, back plows had been in use since before 1962 when my dad started and they had been perfected. Expanding back plows had not been perfected.


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## tpendagast

WIPensFan said:


> Can someone sum up the answer to the original OP question?? Don't feel like reading 15 pages. Thanks.


That depends on what answer you're looking for?

I said above, the value to the pull plow/drag plow is situational

You can get a lot done in a moderate sized lot with light snowfall.

A skilled operator is worth two trucks on the right route and snow fall.

That doesn't mean if you're the prime contractor that you give out prices that are half or there would be no point in investing in the equipment.
It does mean you can do more/make more in the same period of time.

Is a skilled sub with a pull plow worth more than a truck with only a front plow?

How much/how often is negotiable but the answer is yes.

IMO I would work directly with subs to evaluate their efficiency before finalizing their rate.

If a guy shows up to sub for you and he's got a pull plow, go out with him or team him up with one of your trusted employees 
Show me what you got.

If he's worth more , pay more 
If he's stuggling with it or obviously trying to learn how to use it... ahhh no


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## tpendagast

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not really sure what you were asking...because there were 8' and 8'6" back plows before 16' back plows. There weren't 9' back plows.
> 
> Are you asking about the value of just a front plow or a back plow in addition to the front plow?
> 
> It means there is a market for them...thought that was fairly obvious.
> 
> They weren't?
> 
> Thing is, back plows had been in use since before 1962 when my dad started and they had been perfected. Expanding back plows had not been perfected.


Well I assumed the guy was talking about the 12-16' ebling type back/drag blades

My bad..
Not just a rear mounted back blade that I typically assume are most useful for driveways or plowing in tight hoas ; not "lots".

When the OP said lot pricing , I'm thinking wide area plows 
I'm pretty sure I said that above :WAP (wide are plow)


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> I said above, the value to the pull plow/drag plow is situational


Again...this statement is just flat out wrong. Not sure why you can't grasp this.


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> Well I assumed the guy was talking about the 12-16' ebling type back/drag blades


Pretty sure he was. But you keep changing the discussion so again, I don't have any idea what you are talking about.



tpendagast said:


> Not just a rear mounted back blade that I typically assume are most useful for driveways or plowing in tight hoas ; not "lots".


Then you don't know how to use one. Or have never seen one used by a skilled operator...whether it's an 8' or 12' or 16' back plow.

That's the kewl thing about a 16' plow. It can be 8' up to 16' wide.



tpendagast said:


> When the OP said lot pricing , I'm thinking wide area plows
> I'm pretty sure I said that above :WAP (wide are plow)


When you say "wide area plow" I consider that an expanding front plow, not an expanding back plow.


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## leigh

Maybe we can compromise, How about a loader with a expandable back plow.


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## Mark Oomkes

leigh said:


> Maybe we can compromise, How about a loader with a expandable back plow.


That would be an EPIC game changer...way to think outside the box...you'd get a lot of bang for your buck that way...it's a no brainer...you'd really move the goal post with that combo...talk about a win-win...


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## FredG

Wow this got heavy, glad I was bizzie. LMAO


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Wow, this got way off topic.
There seems to be a general lack of understanding in business fundamentals when it comes to adding a "Pull plow", how to come up with charge out rates, hourly vs fixed pricing, etc. All of these pricing methods are correct as long as you know your costs, overhead, and desired profit level.

Let me take a stab at it:


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

If you are wondering, I got a quote on a Pull Plow this AM, so I was running my own numbers (in Canadian dollars with a 36% conversion). Thats a $6500 USD pull plow, plus shipping and taxes. By the time I add brokering, I imagine it will be at $12/hr.

The format of what I plug those numbers into is LMN. This is one of the best ways to help you figure out your true costs. Also, just a side note, those estimates of hours are pretty close for my area only. We don't get a lot of snow (20-30" annually), so I run long shifts to help pay down overhead and ownership costs. If you are running a biz in an area that gets 100+ inches of snow, your numbers will be lower per hour as you would expect.


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## tpendagast

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> If you are wondering, I got a quote on a Pull Plow this AM, so I was running my own numbers (in Canadian dollars with a 36% conversion). Thats a $6500 USD pull plow, plus shipping and taxes. By the time I add brokering, I imagine it will be at $12/hr.
> 
> The format of what I plug those numbers into is LMN. This is one of the best ways to help you figure out your true costs. Also, just a side note, those estimates of hours are pretty close for my area only. We don't get a lot of snow (20-30" annually), so I run long shifts to help pay down overhead and ownership costs. If you are running a biz in an area that gets 100+ inches of snow, your numbers will be lower per hour as you would expect.


Hey thanks for adding in the long hours vs overhead comment 
I get a lot of flak when I try to explain using overtime properly to recover overhead... nice to see someone else understands the principal


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

We already have a little more work than we can keep on top of in a big storm, so my gut is telling me we need this tool. Let me show you some of the math I would use to evaluate this purchase further:

I have a parking lot that currently takes 1 plow truck 2 hours to complete. 2 hours x $105/hr = $210 per push.

With the additional $12/hr of the pull plow, my truck rate becomes $117/hr. I think its reasonable to assume we will cut our time per site down by 20%. 2 hours less 20% = 1.6 hours. So, 1.6 hours x $117/hr = $187.20 per push. 

You can see in the photos above, the $12/hr for the pull plow already included the cost of the plow, the 25% you should be adding for overhead recovery, and 10% for profit (shows 8.5% because I haven't updated my budget). In reality, I am getting my desired profit margin out of this asset AND can do the job cheaper for the customer. I like to price per push, so my per push price would be $210 already. I'm not about to change my price to be lower mid season. I'm going to enjoy the extra $10-12/hr of pure profit and work less hours on top of it. Anyone with a brain is going to take the savings as a win because you never know what surprises may be coming around the corner.

The customer still has an upside out of this as well. They will be serviced faster. Downtime costs them money.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

tpendagast - I saw it was over a few heads. lol 

Tough one to explain, but its a critical part in pricing. Most companies will just base their prices on the competition or the "market" price without understanding it. This may work for some out of dumb luck, but doesn't work for most cases. I guess that's why most businesses fail.


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## Mark Oomkes

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> We already have a little more work than we can keep on top of in a big storm, so my gut is telling me we need this tool. Let me show you some of the math I would use to evaluate this purchase further:
> 
> I have a parking lot that currently takes 1 plow truck 2 hours to complete. 2 hours x $105/hr = $210 per push.
> 
> With the additional $12/hr of the pull plow, my truck rate becomes $117/hr. I think its reasonable to assume we will cut our time per site down by 20%. 2 hours less 20% = 1.6 hours. So, 1.6 hours x $117/hr = $187.20 per push.
> 
> You can see in the photos above, the $12/hr for the pull plow already included the cost of the plow, the 25% you should be adding for overhead recovery, and 10% for profit (shows 8.5% because I haven't updated my budget). In reality, I am getting my desired profit margin out of this asset AND can do the job cheaper for the customer. I like to price per push, so my per push price would be $210 already. I'm not about to change my price to be lower mid season. I'm going to enjoy the extra $10-12/hr of pure profit and work less hours on top of it. Anyone with a brain is going to take the savings as a win because you never know what surprises may be coming around the corner.
> 
> The customer still has an upside out of this as well. They will be serviced faster. Downtime costs them money.


Now you've done it...you went and used math.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

haha Just when you thought highschool math class was over


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## 1olddogtwo

I find the comments interesting about a truck out plowing a machine ... 

Devil's advocate

How much salt is save using a back blade vs a MP or a Arctic plow?

I would reather use a skid or a loader before a truck.


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## tpendagast

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> We already have a little more work than we can keep on top of in a big storm, so my gut is telling me we need this tool. Let me show you some of the math I would use to evaluate this purchase further:
> 
> I have a parking lot that currently takes 1 plow truck 2 hours to complete. 2 hours x $105/hr = $210 per push.
> 
> With the additional $12/hr of the pull plow, my truck rate becomes $117/hr. I think its reasonable to assume we will cut our time per site down by 20%. 2 hours less 20% = 1.6 hours. So, 1.6 hours x $117/hr = $187.20 per push.
> 
> You can see in the photos above, the $12/hr for the pull plow already included the cost of the plow, the 25% you should be adding for overhead recovery, and 10% for profit (shows 8.5% because I haven't updated my budget). In reality, I am getting my desired profit margin out of this asset AND can do the job cheaper for the customer. I like to price per push, so my per push price would be $210 already. I'm not about to change my price to be lower mid season. I'm going to enjoy the extra $10-12/hr of pure profit and work less hours on top of it. Anyone with a brain is going to take the savings as a win because you never know what surprises may be coming around the corner.
> 
> The customer still has an upside out of this as well. They will be serviced faster. Downtime costs them money.


So you would agree a sub with a pull plow is worth more than a sub without one? (assuming said operator knew how to use the pull plow)


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## JMHConstruction

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> We already have a little more work than we can keep on top of in a big storm, so my gut is telling me we need this tool. Let me show you some of the math I would use to evaluate this purchase further:
> 
> I have a parking lot that currently takes 1 plow truck 2 hours to complete. 2 hours x $105/hr = $210 per push.
> 
> With the additional $12/hr of the pull plow, my truck rate becomes $117/hr. I think its reasonable to assume we will cut our time per site down by 20%. 2 hours less 20% = 1.6 hours. So, 1.6 hours x $117/hr = $187.20 per push.
> 
> You can see in the photos above, the $12/hr for the pull plow already included the cost of the plow, the 25% you should be adding for overhead recovery, and 10% for profit (shows 8.5% because I haven't updated my budget). In reality, I am getting my desired profit margin out of this asset AND can do the job cheaper for the customer. I like to price per push, so my per push price would be $210 already. I'm not about to change my price to be lower mid season. I'm going to enjoy the extra $10-12/hr of pure profit and work less hours on top of it. Anyone with a brain is going to take the savings as a win because you never know what surprises may be coming around the corner.
> 
> The customer still has an upside out of this as well. They will be serviced faster. Downtime costs them money.


I think that's the argument. Since you are by the job, you actually make more by becoming more efficient. If you were by the hour, even charging more an hour means you make less per job. Adding efficiency doesn't do much good when working per hour, unless you're the one paying the bill. The operator is stuck with more costs, and makes less. At least that's what I took away from it.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

JMHConstruction - you are exactly right. I would have a hard time selling the same truck per hour for $12/hr more while telling a customer it will be cheaper. If they actually hire you, you're making more money per hour, but now you need to add properties to fill your remaining time you just saved because you are no longer running your equipment to full capacity. 

With "per push" pricing, you make way more profit when you become more efficient than you ever would on an hourly basis. 

I always get a good laugh when you hear somebody bragging about buying a more efficient attachment, but keep the same hourly rate. They are literally flushing their own money down the toilet buying it AND they will need to get more customers just to make up for that gain in efficiency.


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## leigh

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> With "per push" pricing, you make way more profit when you become more efficient than you ever would on an hourly basis.


That's why I'm amazed that many bill this way.A sub I understand, a huge lot with 50 pieces of equipment maybe.But for the average company billing by the hour seems like a major blunder. I can imagine telling a potential client I charge 200$ an hour per truck! They just want to know how much to plow this lot. I'm amazingly efficient ,the results payup end up in my pocket lol I don't do lawncare , but imagine telling client you will charge them by the hour


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## Philbilly2

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> I always get a good laugh when you hear somebody bragging about buying a more efficient attachment, but keep the same hourly rate. They are literally flushing their own money down the toilet buying it AND they will need to get more customers just to make up for that gain in efficiency.


This is called scaling... maybe you will understand it someday.

You cannot price yourself higher than what your market will sustain. Therefore you have more efficient employees and tools and you can do more work in the same amount of time thus leading to more production.payup


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## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> This is called scaling... maybe you will understand it someday.
> 
> You cannot price yourself higher than what your market will sustain. Therefore you have more efficient employees and tools and you can do more work in the same amount of time thus leading to more production.payup


Ditto.


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## Mark Oomkes

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> I always get a good laugh when you hear somebody bragging about buying a more efficient attachment, but keep the same hourly rate.


So even if they are making more dollars per hour by being more efficient, they HAVE to raise their rates?



Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> They are literally flushing their own money down the toilet buying it AND they will need to get more customers just to make up for that gain in efficiency.


Theories are nice, but not always realistic. Phil already covered part of this.

Why do you _need _to get more customers to "make up for that gain in efficiency"?

I'm kinda slow, so if you could type it slowly.

The way I see it, there are 2 options:
1) Provide a better service faster to your customers and make more per hour.

or:

2) Provide a better service faster to your customers, add customers and make even higher gross...maybe not net, but maybe.


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## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> This is called scaling... maybe you will understand it someday.
> 
> You cannot price yourself higher than what your market will sustain. Therefore you have more efficient employees and tools and you can do more work in the same amount of time thus leading to more production.payup


You're not going to get into that math thing again, are you?


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> You're not going to get into that math thing again, are you?


I hope not....Although it will give Aero something to do for a minute


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> I hope not....Although it will give Aero something to do for a minute


A minute might be pushing it...pretty sure he does that stuff in his head.


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## EWSplow

Mark Oomkes said:


> A minute might be pushing it...pretty sure he does that stuff in his *sleep.*


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## JMHConstruction

Mark Oomkes said:


> So even if they are making more dollars per hour by being more efficient, they HAVE to raise their rates?


Maybe I'm just not understanding what you and Phil are explaining.

If I have a truck with a 7.5' straight blade and I make 100 per hour to clear the site, and it takes me 2 hours to clear the site I make $200 for that site. If I then buy a 9' v plow, cut my plowing time down to 1.25 hrs on that site, I then only make $125. Even if I add another lot that takes me 45 minutes, charging at the same hourly rate, I'm now doing 2 lots (more work) for the same amount of money as I was getting for the single site. My customers are happier, but I'm losing money.


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## Mark Oomkes

JMHConstruction said:


> Maybe I'm just not understanding what you and Phil are explaining.
> 
> If I have a truck with a 7.5' straight blade and I make 100 per hour to clear the site, and it takes me 2 hours to clear the site I make $200 for that site. If I then buy a 9' v plow, cut my plowing time down to 1.25 hrs on that site, I then only make $125. Even if I add another lot that takes me 45 minutes, charging at the same hourly rate, I'm now doing 2 lots (more work) for the same amount of money as I was getting for the single site. My customers are happier, but I'm losing money.


It doesn't apply to jobs that are hourly, only per inch/push/seasonal.

You bid a deck job for $10k of labor. You spend $1000 on a new air nailer that is 20% faster than your current one.

Your overhead went up to cover the cost of that nailer.

But your labor decreased by 20% to get that deck finished.

Your bid for $10k was in the middle of the estimates they got.

Do you raise your price by $XXX to recover your overhead for the new nailer (and lose the job) or do you keep the same labor price, do the work more efficiently and move on to the next job because you just saved 20% of your labor costs?


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## JMHConstruction

Mark Oomkes said:


> It doesn't apply to jobs that are hourly, only per inch/push/seasonal.
> 
> You bid a deck job for $10k of labor. You spend $1000 on a new air nailer that is 20% faster than your current one.
> 
> Your overhead went up to cover the cost of that nailer.
> 
> But your labor decreased by 20% to get that deck finished.
> 
> Your bid for $10k was in the middle of the estimates they got.
> 
> Do you raise your price by $XXX to recover your overhead for the new nailer (and lose the job) or do you keep the same labor price, do the work more efficiently and move on to the next job because you just saved 20% of your labor costs?


GotchaThumbs Up

That I understand, I was thinking you were talking about hourly jobs like the OP.


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## Mark Oomkes

In theory, GR8 is absolutely correct. If you add a piece of equipment that is more efficient or productive, your hourly rate SHOULD increase to cover that additional cost.

But theory hits the real world...competition, what customers are willing to pay, etc.

We ran into this problem years ago. When we first started using loaders and pushers, we kept our pricing the same because loaders cost more but they are 3x more productive than a truck. We "re-engineered" the work. We added more accounts because we were getting them done faster plus we were making more per hour. But I still based estimates on how fast we would clear a lot with a truck, then put a loader on it.

Then some nimrod (red army) decided that in order to get more market share, they could reduce their hourly rates but make up for it because the loaders are 3x more productive. So they started basing estimates on how fast they could plow it with a loader, using a truck hourly rate instead of a loader hourly rate. Blooming idiots is what they were.


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## 1olddogtwo

Mark, do they call you the green army?


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## Mark Oomkes

1olddogtwo said:


> Mark, do they call you the green army?


If only it was that kind...


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## tpendagast

Philbilly2 said:


> This is called scaling... maybe you will understand it someday.
> 
> You cannot price yourself higher than what your market will sustain. Therefore you have more efficient employees and tools and you can do more work in the same amount of time thus leading to more production.payup


I think he was getting at 
IF your crew does all their work in a shift 
Then you invest in more productive equipment 
And you don't add work to the shift 
Then you don't get the return on the investment, you just go home a few hours earlier that shift, 
Also psychologically the crew will drag out the production to the full shift where it was before and you don't even see the savings of a few man hours off the payroll to boot.

Sell the additional work first, then invest in the additional equipment to get it done more efficiently. So what used to be 10 hours is now 8. 
Pretty sure that's what he was getting at.


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## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> You're not going to get into that math thing again, are you?












I'm bizzie...


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