# Salt Problems



## doo-man (Feb 22, 2009)

Well I thought I would post this and see if anyone else is or has had this problem?

I received my first shipment of ICE Patrol Rock Salt 10,000#'s and had good luck with it, it spread good and worked out great for us.

Well I ran into a snag when I re-ordered from same supplier the product was mostly dust had very I mean very little rock consistency to it and kept clogging the spreader.

I called supplier they said we will look into it. Well they called back and stated we have opened several bags from several different pallets and were finding the same thing. They contacted their supplier and found out it was a bad batch was mostly end run!!!!

Well I advised them to come pick said bad product up and I would locate another supplier.

I contact company 2 to supply me rock salt, well they arrived on time and as soon as driver starts to unload I noticed it was ICE Patrol brand. I stopped him before he removed any product, I tore open a bag and all be gosh dang it same CRAP driver said wow that stuff is junk !!

Well I told him not to unload and I would call his boss. Well boss said send him back and he would look into it also. Boss hasnt gotten back to me but I know what the final answer will be !!!!

I noticed the date codes were the same and found out that the main supplier had issues with that particular dated product run. DATE CODE 12-2-09

Just curious if any of you have had this problem??

I ended up going to HOME DEPOT to get my salt and they matched the suppliers cost !


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

We had a similar issue with Morton this season. They gave us a price about 10 bucks a ton cheaper than anyon else, thought it was great! First load shows up, very very fine, but we let it go, next order was 3 loads, so now we're about 100 tons into this crap. Called up and complained they said it was a clearance price for "insutrial grade" salt, does not meet ISO standards ETC. So I say we were never told any of that, guy tells me thats impossible, we tell everyone and even had them sign an "as is" agreement. So I said PLEASE send me a copy of that signed agreement.......Low and behold nothing ever came, guy acts all confused when I called back, I said you can't find it because we never signed it. So they ended up crediting us 25 %, which considering the headaches we went through was fair. We're using Cargill, a local guy and Apalachee now.................


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## grasmancolumbus (Mar 4, 2008)

I got stuck with a semi load of that Ice Patrol Crap late last year fine dust and and large clumps got to be the worst salt I have ever seen,


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

i just got an order of 4 ton of morton and it is junk! its powder, doesn't spread right...i'm not happy


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Probably the same S**T they sold me Mahon, call and yell. Only thing that salt is good for is making brine as it's very pure sodium chloride, but for a spreader it's absolute garbage.


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## ChlorideGuy (Nov 24, 2008)

Yet another reason to make the switch to liquids!!!!!!!


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

ChlorideGuy;976002 said:


> Yet another reason to make the switch to liquids!!!!!!!


I got a question for you Chloride Guy...If liquids are the end all be all...Why haven't the countys such as Oakland, Macomb, Wayne Etc...Switched to all liquids...There is always gonna be a place for salt...Just as there is gonna be a place for liquids


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*bagged rock salt problems*

The polar salt mix ismost likely from the Sfto Salt Mine in Goderich, Ontario.

The Kissel group in Ontario is a reseller for many of the products that coastal minerals either mines or evaporates in salt product in Ontario as contracted bag product or block of evaporated salt buyer for resale.

I do not believe they bag any salt at the Cote Blanche Island mine near Franklin, La also owned by Sifto salt which is owned by Coastal Minerals headquartered in Overland Park, Kansas.

The shallow mine at Goderich breaks and conveys 1,000 tons of run of mine minus six inch rock salt per hour to its new screening plant that replaced the old one originally built for the mine underground.

The salt seam mined at Goderich is mined in two passes and uses undercutters, face drills, and floor drills for drilling bench blast holes to remove the salt that is mined under Lake Huron.

The horizon of the salt seam is over cut with undercutter to maintain a flat roof line to aid in roof bolting and (what is referred to as ground control where the roof is scaled of loose salt and rock when required. The flat ceiling also allows for very thorough inspection of the roof with out difficulty.

The salt is transported by LHD load haul dump low profile loaders and large end dump trucks used in surface mining in the fifty ton class of payload.

The salt is transported from the mine face and dumped into a belt feeder breaker at the 1,000 ton per hour rate of breakage and dumped into the conveyor from the mine face to the screen plant. for the entire distance.

The minus six inch salt and any finer salt travels and grinds agaianst all the other salt and moves constantly creating more dust.

The salt enters the screen plant is screened at the rate of 1,000 tons per hour, in the first two cuts using elliptical screens for the primary screens.

The oversize is allowed to drop away and forward of the upper screen decks and are conveyed tot he crushers where the oversize is broken and then conveyed to the flight convyer which feed the final screens where any dust being thr consistancy of pancake floor( minus thirty mesh is screened and allowed to drop away to a waste belt my former employer uses a compactor to recycle its waste salt when it works sometimes :laughing: They still have a lot of rock in thier salt due to the fact that the salt seam is taken all the way to the roof rock-this is why you see prehistoric pieces of red potash in specks of rock within in it.

The Goderich mines uses a quality control system to remove the rock bits from the product using a lazer grading machine in combination with an air blast unit to remove the bits of rock remaining in the salt- this was done with human labor in the surface mill at our mine until the mine was sold to the new owners in 1970.

The Morton salt mine at Himrod, New York operated from 1967-1976 and hoisted its minus six inch product to the surface where it screened, crushed, stock piled and loaded into rail cars and packaged the salt in bags for resale.

The mine was developed by the mining builder contractor Cdementation of Canada and ownership of thre mine was transferred to Morton salt when the mine was developed and construction was completed.

The entire waste salt product was screened and dumped into a waste storage pile on the surface of the mines property until the mine was forced to close due to the salt water runoff from the waste salt fines pile in 1976 and was placed in a standby mode where the salt hoisting shaft and men and materials shaft were sealed and the mines equipment was removed.

The mine had 2 millon tons of Halite inventory remaining on the surface at the time of closure in 1976.

The waste salt fines were cold brined and dissolved using seneca lake water with a rail mounted deluge gun/fire nozzle to dissolve the entire waste pile and was allowed to drain to a bore hole drilled from the surface to drain back underground to solve the problem.

When the mine was developed the salt was broken and conveyed to the skip loading pocket in twenty ton loads using a counterbalanced tower mounted hoisting system with one ore skip is being loaded at the mine loading pocket and the other is being dumped at the surface onto the recieving conveyor where it was conveyed to the surface screening plant a short distance away.and processed on the surface which eliminated the construction and expense of an underground screen plant and the work required to mine it out to size where it would have occupied an area almost a foot ball field long and 30-45 feet deep and 30 feet or more wide.

The problem with bagged Halite salt is both complex with cost of operating issues and the fact that Halite is a seasonal product which exists simply because it is a small percentage of the bulk salt product.

Rock salt was not used for highways until the late 1930's and after the interstate highway system was built the market for rock salt increased dramatically with Bare Roads Conditions at all times thanks to the americas addiction to tghe automobile and many state and federal highway administrations mandates for clear roads at all times. The salt water pollution created from the resuling runoff of melted salt water is having many repercussions affecting water quality nation wide and the problem is not simply a seasonal one. as salt concentrations remain high due to salt deposits left from spreading operations on the edge of the highways wasitng salt, time, machineries expense, and tax dollars.

The fines in a bag of rock salt is an "ooopsy"

item where the halite may have a lot of dust because the finished salt screens are used for both road salt and bag salt.

Any oversize salt is screened away from the bagging salt which is also part of the bulk salt volume stream hoisted to avoid problems with bagging machinery.

The thirty mesh screens the last defense in salt sizing for halite as dust is no no with municipal users and state contracts.

The bagged salt supplies are simply a side line with a huge markup for resale in both bid contracts and open market sales in any volume.

The problem with finishing screens is the salt will surge across the screen fabric and plug it and the entire volume of salt has the same problem, where the dust escapes the screen because it was blinded by the mass flow.

The dust vacuum collection systems are also overwhelmed as they do not employ cylones to filter out and slow down the majority of the particles prior to th ecartridge filters(in my former employers case)

The "no cake" sodium cyanide powder is mixed in a water solution to facilitate the salts ability to flow freely out of doors and it also knocks down the dust fines of the bulk road salt supplies.

==============================================================
The bagged product is not sprayed with it (unless its been changed as policy-but I doubt it.)

I state this with my having knowledge of my former employers( Cargill ) operating methods only. 
=================================================================

The value added salt products with the deicing enhancers etc. are simply srayed on or mixed in dry proportion to each volume of salt packaged and the untreated salt is bagged during the off months to keep the regular crews busy and the specialty salts are packaged during the time period between the order is placed and then delivered to a reseller and then to the end user or warehouse with in a 3 month period after the order is placed.

The salt is packaged palletized and sits until its moved a second time to the box car or truck where it travels, compacts and grinds some more, sits in the warehouse and then it is sold to the end user and OOOOPSY you have a product that has traveled hundreds of miles in some cases and witht the resulting additional generation of dust fines.

There is no easy solution for the dust problem with bagged untreated Halite product short of washing it with a salt water rinse, drying it in a rotary kiln drier exacatly like the ones used to heat cement clinker then bagged- solar salt is a high value product and is much more vaulable for resale due to its very clean very high saline content salt which is denser and is much more durable than Halite even though Halite typically has a Rockwell number of 3 and a Mohs number of 4 in hardness strength from what I remember.

Dedusting of salt is easy by horizontal screens, gravity, and vacuum but the product volume does nit justify the expense for same.

It can be easily done by the end user using a large sample splitter and screen cloth with a shop vac connected to a pan under the narrow screen cloth but the end user has to decide if it is worth the time and effort as it could be done prior to spreading by pouring the cleaned salt into a traffic cone feeding another bag tied with a millers knot or a pail with a lid..

A top soil rotating trommel screen would do it quickly amd the fines would drop out 
but the salt would have to be desacked and then used as needed by filling a bucket or placing the trommel scfreen by the spreader to feed directly into it.

Bagged Halite salt is a secondary product with problems all its own
and the end user is the last link in the supply chain delivery chain and 
deals with the consequences in regard to the condition of the Halite 
product from any supplier, co-op retailer selling pallet loads, or a retail outlet like the 
big box animals.
.


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## grasmancolumbus (Mar 4, 2008)

:


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## gamberbull13 (Dec 16, 2009)

holy crap, is this the modern marvels thread


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## gamberbull13 (Dec 16, 2009)

that might be the longest post ever

enjoyed it a lot tho


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Leon, 

You sure you didn't invent salt??? You seem to know everything!!!!


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## hitachiman 200 (Jan 17, 2010)

wow ..... long post but worth the read. Thanks for the info.


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

forestfireguy;975959 said:


> Probably the same S**T they sold me Mahon, call and yell. Only thing that salt is good for is making brine as it's very pure sodium chloride, but for a spreader it's absolute garbage.


will they do anything? Me and a buddy of mine both got a couple tons from this place he got 80s and 50s and I got 50s and they are all junk. I thought about calling my supplier and raising hell but I figured they would just shrug it off


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*salt etc.*

All of you should know what happens before you buy a Halite 
based deicer and the fact that is is a small portion of salt 
sales and that the product has issues only because of its 
chemistry.

===========
A few weeks ago when Europe was dealing wth the snow
and ice and freezing temperatures The United Kingdom 
ran out of locally mined Halite in its municipal stock piles
for deicing due to one simple fact:

The fact is that they "overreacted" and spread the entire inventory
contained in municipal and rural stock yards, and as a result 
of this and the fact that the weather was so poor, the visibility
so bad, and the snow so deep, and the traffic being what it was 
with no one staying off the road the lorry operators could not 
replenish the public stock yards with available salt from the one
mine operating actively in Great Britain.

And I do not know if they have to plow much or have 
many plows due to the relatively mild winters with rain and cold
as normal weather conditions.

The added fact that ground limestone can be used for deicing 
and grit was something which was never pursued due to the 
low cost of the Halite mined in Britain as it is a thick seamed mine
where they bury flyash-and still do as far as I know in the empty cross cuts by
filling super sacks with fly ash and then delivering them to the mine to
be sent underground as frieght where it is transported from the men 
and materials shaft where it is loaded on a flat bed truck and then 
transported to the area of the mine where the fly ash is stock piled in 
the old mined out workings.

The fly ash is unloaded off the flat bed truck by a squirt boom crane
and stacked in the empty cross cut by the same crane which is 
referred to as a reliever which is used in the mining advance to 
shed the weight load above the active mining tunnels by allowing the roof 
of the mined out relievers next to the first and last tunnels to fail and
eventually fall in to reduce the weight loading from the first entry to 
the last tunnel in themining panel-or yard as it is referred to there 
as a way to reduce roof stress and weight shearing by the simple 
act of letting the reliever fail/shed load/ and reduce the stress 
across the width of the mine entries which are being mined.

The salt pillars that the mine uses in the room and pillar mining pattern 
are very large as the seam it taken in one shot and are tailored to the 
mines shallow depth as the salt seam is very thick and the overburden
layer is shallow.

The under cutter used is mounted on crawler boom arrangement 
where the floor, walls and the roof line horizon are cut on one pass
to profile the salt pillar as well as provide a flat roof surface for roof scaling 
and roof bolting as well as safe passage roof convergence pins.

The salt pillars are designed to be a simple upside down trapezoid 
with the narrow flat top part of the pillar is the area left to contact 
the mine floor and crush at a very slow very safe rate of convergence.
due to the pillars square area increasing as the roof converges doing 
two things slowing the amount of convergence and and at the same 
time creating more roof support for the mine as it ages.
The mine there is only 60 or so years old and has very long life span 
and the seams thckness also adds to the mines economies of scale
for production.

The method of undercutting and the use of larger drills allows the use 
of massive amount of stress relief being the kerf created by the undercutter around the entire active face whch relieves and eliminating the stress of blasting being transmitted to the surrounding roof and rib area of the pillar as it is created in the mining advance and to reduce the amount of explosive used and at the same time create safe piillar walls and allow a clean roof line horizon to allow easy and quick observation of roof conditions for roof bolting as the mining face advances and the cross cuts are mined as the tunnels advance each shift using the same method of stress relief during the mining sequence advance.

I am sorry the posts are long but, if I did not explain why the salt
behaves the way it does, you will never obtain an adequate
answer as to why you have the dust and rock bits in the 
salt bags you buy for what you do as the actual facts are
not well known by the end user.

Knowledge is power.

Arab Proverb

There is danger in not knowing what is unknown.

:waving:


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## ChlorideGuy (Nov 24, 2008)

Matson Snow;976016 said:


> I got a question for you Chloride Guy...If liquids are the end all be all...Why haven't the countys such as Oakland, Macomb, Wayne Etc...Switched to all liquids...There is always gonna be a place for salt...Just as there is gonna be a place for liquids


Well i will reflect back on my post!!! ( Liquids let it all hang out)
Never said liquids will be a end all be all for deicing they are a very good tool to use, However before making a bold statement like you did.( see above caption ) LOL
I would do a little market research if i were you .
There are many and i will say it again there are MANY citys accross the states that do all liquids. Some are close by and some are out west,Down south and in the east. And thats a fact. Here is another Fact i will through at ya. I have never said you can switch to all liquids there is a place and a time where they perform better that salt.And liquids are a good tool to use to fight ice and snow. as far as Oakland,Wayne,Macomb, Ect.... They are using liquids with there salt and have for many years.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*my messages of late*

My sincere apologies for my misspellings as I have forgotten to use the spell check function at least twice.

Sean, did we not have an advanced button at one time that allows one to go back ito the posts and edit them at one time?

I know it is possible to do on the VBulletin forums I either moderate on or use daily or it it a limited time item for the posting involved?

:waving:

leon


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Mahon,

My supply of junk salt came direct from Morton, I don't know who you got yours from, maybe worth a call, I got a 25% credit.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

I got junk mortons salt for the first half of the year. Real bad. I called and they discounted it for me. I went back to halite and that stuff has been nice size rocks and spreads great.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

ChlorideGuy;976002 said:


> Yet another reason to make the *switch* to liquids!!!!!!!


This is your Quote Right.....Please Inform me of the Countys that use ALL liquids in this state...I would like to contact them to see how the results are..I know first hand Oakland county uses liquid as a prewetter on some of their trucks..They also will spray the road before large events with mixed results....They have there own Brine well...I have started using liquids is a small way right now...But i could be a large customer in the future..I was just asking a Question and by your Smart ass response you have lost a future customer.......


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## grasmancolumbus (Mar 4, 2008)




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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

Burkartsplow;977059 said:


> I got junk mortons salt for the first half of the year. Real bad. I called and they discounted it for me. I went back to halite and that stuff has been nice size rocks and spreads great.


clapper and i both got a few skids over at your fav. place PUBLIC SALT...needless to say I just about used up the salt the last few days so I will be going to Hoopes for the rest of the year. Yea, a little more expensive but it's not dust.


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## ChlorideGuy (Nov 24, 2008)

Matson Snow;977384 said:


> This is your Quote Right.....Please Inform me of the Countys that use ALL liquids in this state...I would like to contact them to see how the results are..I know first hand Oakland county uses liquid as a prewetter on some of their trucks..They also will spray the road before large events with mixed results....They have there own Brine well...I have started using liquids is a small way right now...But i could be a large customer in the future..I was just asking a Question and by your Smart ass response you have lost a future customer.......


Matson Snow,

" There are many and i will say it again there are MANY CITYS accross the STATES that do all liquids. Some are close by and some are out west,Down south and in the east. And thats a fact. "

I said citys not countys. And if you would like more info give me a call. I will not post my customer list a public form for all to see. (i.e what countys or CITYS went all liquid.)
and as far as a smart ass response.... Not smart assed just educated.
I hope this information is valuable to you. Also if you read my Post Liquids let it all hang out you will see we do not encourage the use of all liquids all the time there is a place for salt and a place for liquids. sometimes they work better together. sometimes they work better apart. And as far as you using liquids...... well we will just leave that to the future

Thanks for responding if i can help you out with anything please let me know.

Mike


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## Thesandman23 (Dec 31, 2007)

*Feed Salt*

That is feed salt that farms feed livestock. That happens when the mine is running out of rock salt and or your supplier has ran out of there contract with rock salt and the only thing they can get from the mine is feed salt.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*salt*

Most of the salt mined in the east is not pure
enough for feed salt let alone for explosives or
soup salt or tanning hides due to the shale dust/rock in it.

The dome shaped mines in Texas and Louisiana have 
rock salt that is older and has much less rock in it.

The mine owned by Lyons salt is lucky as they have 
a thick salt seam and are able to avoid problems with 
rock as they are mining at a shallow depth and have less.
less convergence pressure affecting the mining conditions.

We sold a lot of industrial salt/clean oversize prior to the time we
had to take all the salt up to the seams point of 
contact with the rock roof due to our greater mining 
depth and the convergence pressure and shearing of
the roof due to to the act of mining the salt..

(in my former employers case)
The bagged salt is always part of the bulk salt conveyed
in total and is directed too the bagging bins when required.
where it is diverted and screened again scalping the low 
amount of oversize rock salt that is sold companies like Rotosalt 
in Penn Yann, New York which use it to press blocks for cattle and
horses and smaller animals like rabbits/chinchillas/mink etc.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Leon, just what part of the salt business did you work in or invent? I have noticed your post getting shorter, I'm hoping your not running short on info. ( I do enjoy your post. ) Please don't tell me you were a guard at the gate. :laughing:


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## sparky2410 (Nov 26, 2009)

*leon is a genius!!!!!*


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*salt etc.*



Kubota 8540;978868 said:


> Leon, just what part of the salt business did you work in or invent? I have noticed your post getting shorter, I'm hoping your not running short on info. ( I do enjoy your post. ) Please don't tell me you were a guard at the gate. :laughing:


I was a diesel and hydraulics mechanic in a room and pillar salt mine, prior to that i was a mine laborer and mine stock room clerk. After 22 years I outlived my usefullness and was dismissed and replaced with a mine laborer for half my salary as I was the last maintenance man who was assigned to greasing and refueling the machinery.

after some time had passed I applied at another faciliity for employment and was denied employment: Qoute I was fired for a safety violation. Unqoute.

After that I sent a seven page detailed letter to the chairman of the board and chief executive officer of the company which provoked a visit to the mine by said individual as he oibviously would not have bothered with if he thought I was lying or lacked credibility.

ONE WOULD THINK

I recieved a letter in response to my letter by the HR manager for the division stating he was assigned the responsibility to provide the repsonse to my letter and stated that the companys policy was not to hire any individual fired from any other company facility.

the letter was signed and dated by the HR manager

we see what happens with my granted deicing patent



I have no objection to having this item deleted if the moderator feels it necessary:waving:


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

"After 22 years I outlived my usefullness and was dismissed and replaced with a mine laborer for half my salary as I was the last maintenance man who was assigned to greasing and refueling the machinery."

Seems to be all to common and a disturbing trend nowadays. Well I hope to continue to see your posts and will try to understand 1/2 of what you post and retain the same. You certainly seem to have a lot of info to share.


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