# Hard Salt!



## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

How do you keep your bulk salt from getting rock hard? I store it in old chemical totes and after it sits for a week or so it’s hard as a rock. I have to use a pipe and big pry bar to chisel and bust it loose. It’s in a non heated garage and where I get it it’s stored outside in a covered building. When we load the totes it’s fine. Is this just the way salt gets??


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Better off tarping a pile than the totes. Can’t dry out in the tub.


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## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

cjames808 said:


> Better off tarping a pile than the totes. Can't dry out in the tub.


Why would it need to dry out? It's not wet. I should also said that it's hard in the pile till he busts it up with the skid then it's normal untill it sits in my totes so putting it under a tarp doesn't sound like it's going to help me any since it's under a tarp at his place and it's the same way. If I tarped it the salt would suck up the ground moisture I would thinn


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Why would it need to dry out? It's not wet. I should also said that it's hard in the pile till he busts it up with the skid then it's normal untill it sits in my totes so putting it under a tarp doesn't sound like it's going to help me any since it's under a tarp at his place and it's the same way. If I tarped it the salt would suck up the ground moisture I would thinn


It has moisture in it, or it wouldn't be hard in the pile.
Totes would be ok, if you can keep them in a heated space.
The plastic holds the moisture in. 
It would also freeze in a pile, but usually when you break though the frozen stuff on the surface, its loose. 
You can try to heat from the top with a weed burner, but you might melt the plastic.


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## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

EWSplow said:


> It has moisture in it, or it wouldn't be hard in the pile.
> Totes would be ok, if you can keep them in a heated space.
> The plastic holds the moisture in.
> It would also freeze in a pile, but usually when you break though the frozen stuff on the surface, its loose.
> You can try to heat from the top with a weed burner, but you might melt the plastic.


Thanks for the reply. This is my first year using salt so I wasnt expecting this.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Thanks for the reply. This is my first year using salt so I wasnt expecting this.


I figured you haven't used bulk salt before.
Can you heat the shed its in for a few hours prior to using it? That might work. maybe tarp off the area where it is, so you don't have to heat the whole building. DO NOT put it in a spreader prior to the time you're heading out.


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## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

EWSplow said:


> I figured you haven't used bulk salt before.
> Can you heat the shed its in for a few hours prior to using it? That might work. maybe tarp off the area where it is, so you don't have to heat the whole building. DO NOT put it in a spreader prior to the time you're heading out.


I am working on heating my garage just need a few more components for my heater. Then I can fire it up before I head out and see if that helps I guess


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## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

I may try to see if my Bertha torch softens it up once to


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Ever hear the term “Hard as a Rock”
Well “Rock” is the first part of the name in “Rock salt” therefore it’s hard...

Tip the totes over, let the salt break apart.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Elite Snow Removal said:


> I may try to see if my Bertha torch softens it up once to


Salt is hydroscopic and will draw moisture out of the air over time... It can be dry as a bone like you say. That is why you will see piles crust over on the outside... Even covered it will do it.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> You can try to heat from the top with a weed burner, but you might melt the plastic.


Is this some @FredG invention...?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

The machine (bobcat , loader , whatever) is what is used to break it up

Sometimes I’ll just roll over the chunks with my tires to bust it up then scoop it back into the pile. Sometimes you can just crunch it with the bucket or drop it from max height and it will bust up. 

This is why the bulk pile (tarped or covered) is the best storage , because it gives the easiest access to the machine to mix/break up/load the product.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Ever hear the term "Hard as a Rock"
> Well "Rock" is the first part of the name in "Rock salt" therefore it's hard...
> 
> Tip the totes over, let the salt break apart.


I thought it was sodium...as in sodium chloride...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

EWSplow said:


> I figured you haven't used bulk salt before.
> Can you heat the shed its in for a few hours prior to using it? That might work. maybe tarp off the area where it is, so you don't have to heat the whole building. DO NOT put it in a spreader prior to the time you're heading out.


I don't know if it will work... the science says no. You will still have to break it apart to get it out.

As John said above hygroscopic means the salt absorbs water vapor out of open air. It will attract the water vapor from the air then once enough is attracted the gas changes into liquid, and it then starts to dissolve the salt and locks together in block form.

I guess what we are saying is that your salt is not frozen together, it has broken down the outside state of the salt crystals and those crystals are now more or less "bonded" together into a bigger block. Thawing it out will do nothing from my experience. Hopefully someone else has had a different fate?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Is this some @FredG invention...?


 Bertha torch, weed burner all the same thing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> Thawing it out will do nothing from my experience.


Depends on how much moisture content there is. First time we learned (the hard way) that salt freezes is when we started using bulk salt. We hadn't built a roof for it or tarped it. We had some very hard chunks of salt. Loaded the truck up, had 1 that had to be about a yard of salt, left it in the shop with the heat up. Next morning, the chunk was still there, exact same shape. Figured we were screwed. Hit it with a shovel and it fell apart completely.


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## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Ever hear the term "Hard as a Rock"
> Well "Rock" is the first part of the name in "Rock salt" therefore it's hard...
> 
> Tip the totes over, let the salt break apart.


Lol yep got it. Not an option but thanks


tpendagast said:


> The machine (bobcat , loader , whatever) is what is used to break it up
> 
> Sometimes I'll just roll over the chunks with my tires to bust it up then scoop it back into the pile. Sometimes you can just crunch it with the bucket or drop it from max height and it will bust up.
> 
> This is why the bulk pile (tarped or covered) is the best storage , because it gives the easiest access to the machine to mix/break up/load the product.


i don't have a machine that's why it's in totes


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Depends on how much moisture content there is.


Very true.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Depends on how much moisture content there is. First time we learned (the hard way) that salt freezes is when we started using bulk salt. We hadn't built a roof for it or tarped it. We had some very hard chunks of salt. Loaded the truck up, had 1 that had to be about a yard of salt, left it in the shop with the heat up. Next morning, the chunk was still there, exact same shape. Figured we were screwed. Hit it with a shovel and it fell apart completely.


My sidewalk guys once thought they'd get a jump on things and fill buckets the night before. Not only didn't they have salt, but didn't have buckets. Those salt blocks were probably solid until june.

I have heated the crusty edge of a pile with a weed burner and it does work.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

About all you can do is bust it up.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG said:


> About all you can do is bust it up.


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## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


>


Lol thanks mark


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Are you getting totes loaded, then shoveling into a tailgate spreader?


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## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

Freshwater said:


> Are you getting totes loaded, then shoveling into a tailgate spreader?


Yes. I have a buddy load the totes and I bucket it when I need it


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Sounds like bagged salt would be a much better alternative until you have a way and a need for the volume of salt that bulk provides.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Sounds like bagged salt would be a much better alternative until you have a way and a need for the volume of salt that bulk provides.


If you add up the BS he's dealing with, probably.
Here, even though bulk went up in cost, bagged is less than last year.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What about super sacks?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What about super sacks?


They're not that easy to get.
He could buy his own sacks and have the filled. 
I believe industrial sand blasting aggregate is typically shipped in them.
Repurposed materials has them for sale. Not cheap.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I thought it was sodium...as in sodium chloride...


Halite actually


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Halite actually


NaCl actually...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> NaCl actually...


Understood


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Understood


I'm not sure you do...BTW, has your new shirt arrived from Amazon yet?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm not sure you do...BTW, has your new shirt arrived from Amazon yet?


I probably don't....

No, prime wasn't available for it.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Yes. I have a buddy load the totes and I bucket it when I need it


What do you mean by bucket? Your loading bulk into totes, then shoveling into 5gal buckets then hand spreading?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Freshwater said:


> What do you mean by bucket? Your loading bulk into totes, then shoveling into 5gal buckets then hand spreading?


I was afeared to axe...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Freshwater said:


> What do you mean by bucket? Your loading bulk into totes, then shoveling into 5gal buckets then hand spreading?


I'm guessing shovel into buckets and dump into spreader .


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

EWSplow said:


> I'm guessing shovel into buckets and dump into spreader .


Because that's so efficient...at least the bags only have to be touched once to load them in the spreader.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Because that's so efficient...at least the bags only have to be touched once to load them in the spreader.


Not efficient, but bags at $5 each is $200 / ton. 
Without knowing what he's paying for bulk and what equipment he has, there's no way to calculate the cost difference including handling.
I'm guessing if he doesn't have a loader to load , he doesn't have a forklift to handle pallets.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

EWSplow said:


> Not efficient, but bags at $5 each is $200 / ton.
> Without knowing what he's paying for bulk and what equipment he has, there's no way to calculate the cost difference including handling.
> I'm guessing if he doesn't have a loader to load , he doesn't have a forklift to handle pallets.


Unload pallets by hand? It's only 49 bags..


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Unload pallets by hand? It's only 49 bags..


×2.

Edit ×3.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

EWSplow said:


> ×2.
> 
> Edit ×3.


Phone a friend.
Ask the audience.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Or you can pour bags into a tipping dumpster and use a forklift... Yeah I knew someone...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Or you can pour bags into a tipping dumpster and use a forklift... Yeah I knew someone...


One of these?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

EWSplow said:


> Not efficient, but bags at $5 each is $200 / ton.
> Without knowing what he's paying for bulk and what equipment he has, there's no way to calculate the cost difference including handling.
> I'm guessing if he doesn't have a loader to load , he doesn't have a forklift to handle pallets.


He said he was getting it from a buddy so who knows what he's paying . Might be a half off sale.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Only load as much salt as you use during an event. Never let the salt sit in the bin for days. Use a shovel to load the buckets. The shoveling breaks the fresh salt up easy. It's manual labor, it sucks, it's cold. Many of us have been there, at the beginning. Save for a v box, that should be you first priority for next year. Used ones can be had cheap in the summer, they take up storage space, people don't plan properly. Find a steal. It will change your whole winter business model.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Elite Snow Removal said:


> Lol yep got it. Not an option but thanks
> 
> i don't have a machine that's why it's in totes


what do you do? shovel it in from the tote?


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## Brndnstffrd (Mar 8, 2013)

tpendagast said:


> what do you do? shovel it in from the tote?


4 guys to pick the tote up, one on each side, another guy works the valve at the bottom of the tote to dump it directly into the spreader. Problem is the salt is too solid to come out of the spout on the tote.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Brndnstffrd said:


> 4 guys to pick the tote up, one on each side, another guy works the valve at the bottom of the tote to dump it directly into the spreader. Problem is the salt is too solid to come out of the spout on the tote.


Isn't it heavier when wet 
Four guys to lift a tote or 6 when it's wet n hard?
Sounds like a workers comp nightmare waiting to happen.


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## Brndnstffrd (Mar 8, 2013)

tpendagast said:


> Isn't it heavier when wet
> Four guys to lift a tote or 6 when it's wet n hard?


Good point. Guess I overestimated the strength of sidewalk monkeys.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Brndnstffrd said:


> 4 guys to pick the tote up, one on each side, another guy works the valve at the bottom of the tote to dump it directly into the spreader. Problem is the salt is too solid to come out of the spout on the tote.


4 guys to pick up a ton and a half of salt? You wouldn't need equipment if you have 4 guys capable of that.


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## BidAbout (Oct 25, 2014)

Salt draws moisture from humid air. If it sits long enough you've got problems. Even a tarped pile will harden up over time in humid climates.


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## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

Today I went out to get salt to make brine (another thread to come) and the salt was perfectly fine. Not a clump to be had. So I guess it was just froze. Never thought of it.


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## chachi1984 (Feb 10, 2012)

once it gets colder it gets harder more,


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## Elite Snow Removal (Sep 29, 2015)

Yep I got it figured out now. Thanks


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