# Anyone else dealing with low ballers?



## Eggie329

Around here the latest thing this year is crackheads rigging a plow onto a 30 year old two wheel drive truck and bidding commercial and residential properties for $50 for the season and advertising $5 per push. I am not kidding at all they will do anything for a few dollars for their crack and people are actually contracting with them. They are everywhere around here pulling this crap and everyone is losing customers left and right. I saw out staking a coney island lot that I have and I am 100% serious two homeboys pull in driving a late 70's Chevy with a seran wrap rear window, plywood passenger door, and what might have been a lawn tractor plow somehow rigged onto the front. They go inside for just a few minutes. The owner comes out laughing and saying they just offered to do the lot for $50 for the season. I thought he was kidding until later I went inside and everyone was laughing about it. I'm lucky so save that customer, but I have lost at least five good residential contracts to these same type of guys. One group went down a line of houses I have contracts with and bid $100 for all five for the season. And all of those customers actually think they are coming back after they get the $100 and told me I have to beat their bid. I clearly said the heck with them, but at least they'll be calling after the first snow begging me to come dig them out. We'll be sure to get another deposit out of them! Sorry, just had to vent a little anger about the knuckleheads plowing for $5. As I talk to people in the area I'm learning this is really common. Does anyone else have crackheads taking their work from them? It's just been driving me crazy!!!


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## Matson Snow

Eggie329;1137005 said:


> Around here the latest thing this year is crackheads rigging a plow onto a 30 year old two wheel drive truck and bidding commercial and residential properties for $50 for the season and advertising $5 per push. I am not kidding at all they will do anything for a few dollars for their crack and people are actually contracting with them. They are everywhere around here pulling this crap and everyone is losing customers left and right. I saw out staking a coney island lot that I have and I am 100% serious two homeboys pull in driving a late 70's Chevy with a seran wrap rear window, plywood passenger door, and what might have been a lawn tractor plow somehow rigged onto the front. They go inside for just a few minutes. The owner comes out laughing and saying they just offered to do the lot for $50 for the season. I thought he was kidding until later I went inside and everyone was laughing about it. I'm lucky so save that customer, but I have lost at least five good residential contracts to these same type of guys. One group went down a line of houses I have contracts with and bid $100 for all five for the season. And all of those customers actually think they are coming back after they get the $100 and told me I have to beat their bid. I clearly said the heck with them, but at least they'll be calling after the first snow begging me to come dig them out. We'll be sure to get another deposit out of them! Sorry, just had to vent a little anger about the knuckleheads plowing for $5. As I talk to people in the area I'm learning this is really common. Does anyone else have crackheads taking their work from them? It's just been driving me crazy!!!


Tough Economic Times bring them all out......In Southeast Michigan is about as rough as it gets as far as Economics....A few bad storms will shake out a few of these people.....You read storys every year about people getting burned by these sort of Contractors.....Keep plugging along...Give your customers Great Service and Value...


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## Eggie329

I plan on it! The knuckleheads out there may win a few battles, but if you get known as reliable company and provide top of the line service you'll always win the war. Thats how I'm looking at it!


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## snowman6

I had kind of a similar thing happen to me. I was in talks with a local grocery store ( small lot) and I know the son of the owner and was getting ready to sign the contract for a little cheaper than normal ( because were friends) and boom out comes two guys in 84-87 model chevy with the tailgate and hood both strapped with bungee cords, one completely missing taillight and housing, a cracked wind shield and a cracked looking snow way plow with no lights. And needless to say the owner went with them for 200.00 for the season including clearing of walks and salt there is no way in hell that there even going to show up. But I told my buddy and he said please leave a spot open in my route for them. and I said o.k but I will be charging a little more for the hassle just because your dad wanted to save a little more money.:angry: I HATE LOWBALLERS


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## BORIS

Sometimes people have to learn a lesson the hard way. Stick with it you will get it back. It sucks because it is so frustrating.:salute:


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## acornish

its amazing how some one would even hire theses guys --- geeze my truck aint perfect but its all there and no major rot


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## paponte

Gotta go after accounts that they can't handle. We bid several new accounts this year and were awarded only one, so I know they are out there. On the flip side, we haven't lost an account in over four years, and that was out of our control.


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## plowking15

I'd be nervous letting someone like that plow my yard. Maybe they are casing the houses they go in,plowing the drives gives them reasons to be there. The customer may come home some day to a clean driveway and a empty house. I imagine asking the crack heads for proof of insurance would be out of the question. plowking


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## RCsLawncare

Hopefully you reminded your customers to get an insurance document from them!! That really changes peoples minds when they hear that the guy that could hit there house is not covered by their home owners insurance... Garage doors are expensive last time I checked!! Good luck and keep doing a good job!!


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## swtiih

Some home owners don't relize when someone works at their house uninsured.
One guy I talked to basically didn't care because he got a cheap price


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## lawnproslawncar

We have a landscape company that thinks things smell pretty good in their world. They have been plowing for two years now after buying a lawn care company. I know they charged $60/hr for pick ups last year. Well I don't know what they are thinking but this year they came along charging $35/hr for the same service. Well...I know also they charge by the ton for salting and low and behold my buddy said they salting the living daylights out of the lot across from him...
I can't wait to run into the owner and ask him what he's thinking...lowering the hourly rate is bringing ridiculous....and for what reason? Do they think they are gonna sweep away everyone else and then in a few years have the market? How will you ever get back to $60+/hr again????

I cannot believe this! I don't even get it...


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## exmark1

There are a few around here...there is one decent sized company who works for nothing! Which explains why he has filed bankruptcy twice


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## Mick76

lawnproslawncar;1140255 said:


> We have a landscape company that thinks things smell pretty good in their world. They have been plowing for two years now after buying a lawn care company. I know they charged $60/hr for pick ups last year. Well I don't know what they are thinking but this year they came along charging $35/hr for the same service. Well...I know also they charge by the ton for salting and low and behold my buddy said they salting the living daylights out of the lot across from him...
> I can't wait to run into the owner and ask him what he's thinking...lowering the hourly rate is bringing ridiculous....and for what reason? Do they think they are gonna sweep away everyone else and then in a few years have the market? How will you ever get back to $60+/hr again????
> 
> I cannot believe this! I don't even get it...


Maybe hes subbing for AGMG..... As Rich has stated, $35 ph for a truck is the going rate........  Thumbs Up


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## shooterm

I've noticed a few companies will try anything before they fold.


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## 90w250mm

Mick76;1140631 said:


> Maybe hes subbing for AGMG..... As Rich has stated, $35 ph for a truck is the going rate........  Thumbs Up


Heck I get $40/hr for my rhino,,,,,,its a sidewalk machine


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## lawnproslawncar

Yeah....there are rumors of a divorce going...I still don't get it. Just drop some accounts if u want less money.


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## NPMinc

Unfortunately these guys are everywhere. Havent ran into many established guys doing this,around here it is mostly guys that with the bad economy and having the belief that there is a "pot of gold" in plow work, go out and buy some crappy used setup for cheap (not knowing if it works properly or not and having no idea the amount of money that it can take to maintain a plow rig). They then,since they have no understanding of the overhead costs involved nor how to properly bid for snow removal, or what they are getting themselves into as far time and liability, go out and bid what sounds to them like a good price, seeing only the dollar figure as all profit. After a few real snows their customers will be scrambling for someone else and I have made alot of money off these last minute contracts.


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## lmenterprises

Yeah, I just got a call from one of my accounts that Ive done the past few winters. They gave the account to a LOW BALLER. I mean, my price was low to begin with. I do the lot right next door its a bit smaller, but they pay more. So when I bid on the lot that I lost, I priced it where the other lot paid pretty much for it and this lot was pure profit. (Make any sense?) Now, someone else got it. I am in SHOCK right now. Freaking lowballers. I asked my contact if it was my quality of service or if it was my pricing. He said in the 15 years he been in charge of contractors he has never dealt with a better company then mine. Not one complaint in the last 3years I have plowed them. But someone came in with a lower bid. not by much but it was lower. it wasnt his decision, it was his directors choice. Oh well, I told him I was dissapointed, and enjoyed working for them, but to keep me in mind if things dont work out.:realmad:


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## NPMinc

Keep in mind that not everyone who outbids ya is a lowballer. Some just may be able to factor in different cost factors, etc then you or have a different profit margin they need to stay in the black. To me the term lowballer is someone who just comes in and throws out a rediculus low number because they have no idea or comprehension of how to give a proper bid and they are thinking as though the number they quote is gonna be pure profit.


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## lawnproslawncar

And for some. They have nothing to lose in a settlement because they have nothing to begin with


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## yell llc

they will be gone come first snowfall


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## lawnproslawncar

Riddle me this. I'm amused by a competitors childish acts:

So I service a video store during the summer and they love me but the guy who plows has plowed for many more yrs. I threw them a two year monthly locked in price and really got the gears turning. Well they have just signed on tonight with our impending footer snowfall.

The owner call the contractor up who is rediculously cheap in the area and doesn't like to stay on the up and up on vehicle registration and insurance. (A reason for choosing me). He gets all bossy with his former client and says...."We're under contract you can't switch" (never ever ever signed one). Then says "I'm gonna get that f***er! And hangs up"

Now, I thinks its hilarious, but would you be worried? I know he'll go to my clients and offer free plowing or some rediculous thing like that. I wonder if he'll confront me or try to sabotage my equipment? Glad I got back ups available and friends in law enforcement places! 


Just wanted to share my experience of the night.


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## swtiih

hopefully the guy gets over it


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## lawnproslawncar

Sore loser I'm sure. He got into a dispute with the power company over a bill and in a outroar he told the he was gonna blow there building up! The smart guy that he is went down there afterwards and was met by the cops...who were taking the report.


Still don't know how he walked away from that, you'd think that would get you jail time now days!


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## shott8283

my question is, what do you say to a prospective client when there rebuttle to your qoute is "well the other guy said it would cost WAY less" 

I guess I have a hard time finding the vocabulary to tell them they are dumb if they go with the other guys (crack heads in this case)

the only thing i try to get across is that they will be happy with my services, and that i feel they will be unhappy with the crack heads, and even that phrase doesnt do any good.


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## NPMinc

when this happens to me I point out a few things..... That I am fully insured, a properly registered business, have multiple trucks/crews available to service them 24/7, and am also a year round full time landscape and property maintenance business, not just someone who throws a plow on a truck and tries to go out and make a quick buck......basically remind them that you get what you pay for. Some care, some dont......that is till the first time Mr Lowballer screws them!


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## shott8283

NPMinc;1148894 said:


> when this happens to me I point out a few things..... That I am fully insured, a properly registered business, have multiple trucks/crews available to service them 24/7, and am also a year round full time landscape and property maintenance business, not just someone who throws a plow on a truck and tries to go out and make a quick buck......basically remind them that you get what you pay for. Some care, some dont......that is till the first time Mr Lowballer screws them!


i hope you dont mind i print your post out and make it into a little flyer so i can just hand it to the idiots and walk away

lol


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## NPMinc

Lol sure go ahead, I may just do that myself. I wouldnt however, go so far as to call any of my customers idiots though, most are just uninformed and dont understand all that goes into it. Once i have given that explaination I have lost very few customers and of those who I did lose,many have come back to me after they have been screwed by the lowballer. Just a note----I always include those customers on my yearly preseason mailings along with my regular customers, just kinda reminds them of how they were screwed the prior winter and makes them reconsider if they wanna go thru that again for a few $ difference.


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## Jguck25

NPMinc;1148894 said:


> when this happens to me I point out a few things..... That I am fully insured, a properly registered business, have multiple trucks/crews available to service them 24/7, and am also a year round full time landscape and property maintenance business, not just someone who throws a plow on a truck and tries to go out and make a quick buck......basically remind them that you get what you pay for. Some care, some dont......that is till the first time Mr Lowballer screws them!


I have used this before, recently actually. It doesnt always work.. It was a private road with three houses on it and after i explained why someone else would do it for less than HALF my price. All they said was well as long as the snow gets pushed out of the road does it really matter about all that stuff? They didnt get it. But then they


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## Mike N

shott8283;1148610 said:


> my question is, what do you say to a prospective client when there rebuttle to your qoute is "well the other guy said it would cost WAY less"


I get the same thing in the auto repair business. Seems there's always someone out there willing to do the same job for a lot less. So when someone tells me that the shop down the street will overhaul their engine for $20 and a six pack, I tell them "well then that's the place to go."

I charge what I charge for my services (repair or plowing) and that's that. Even if I drop my prices to meet the lowballers price, that customer is still going to find something to gripe about. Let them be someone else's pain in the a$$ and not yours.


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## PPP

Unfortunately it is a sign of the times indeed. I had been waiting to hear back from one small commercial customer 2 lots Shipping depots. Stopped by twice to see the new Manager. I had been plowing and salting it for two years. My base price was $600 per pass and $250 to salt (Only wanted Magic Salt) along with lots of hand salting w/b spreader between trucks. It was a good gig while it lasted. I show up today and there is a wet pile of sand over two parking spots and an old tractor on site. I walked in and the Secretary who has known me for years shows me the contract they accepted. Hand written $350 per pass and the salt mix is included.... I wonder if the tractor will last the winter. I told her to remind them to call me if they run into problems. Unfortunately some people are willing to take the risk to pay out less.


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## plowzilla

It is happening all over. Out by me there are alot of builders who are out of work since the housng market tanked. They need to feed thier families and most of them are from other countries. They see the prices being charged for snow removal and think its alot of money. They under cut your bid alot and get the account. Then they realize the true costs of snow removal, do a crappy job, and they are out next season. This has happened to me before and they account came calling next season for me to return. Just give good service, take the loss this year, and if your good enough, they will return.


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## kah68

One other point to make to your customer is the fact that you will be here next year and beyond. Re assure them that your price is fair for the great service they recieve and you don't feel you should have to discount for great service.


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## Eggie329

My phone was ringing off the hook with this storm we got Sunday. Wasn't a huge snow, but 4-6 inches is pretty big for the first "plowable" snow. My phone was ringing constantly with customers apologizing for taking the low bid since they never showed up and if they did couldn't clear the snow. One customer slammed me this Fall saying my service is over priced compared to the deal they got this year for $50 for the season. They gave them the $50 upfront and told me have a nice day. So they called me apologizing for complaining and asking if I could come plow them out and help the other company get out of the driveway since they got stuck using a 2wd truck! I can't stop laughing since they fired me for the cheap guy and he got stuck in their driveway. Apparently he was stuck for about 6 hours since he didn't stake and went off the driveway into a ditch.


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## lukynskywyrd

*I hired one last year....*

to do my 20,000 sq ft lot after the local "conglomerate" continually raised their prices. $60 per push w/ 2" trigger with an $15 prem. 3"-5" and 6"-9". Small construction company, not a crackhead but not a big outfit either. $50/hr to salt @ .12/lb. Great job last year, no price increase this year and so far so good after 3 storms. The "conglomerate" laughed when I told him the pricing and said see you after the first storm but Im happy with the results. Over the years the big guys took off the corner of my building, the corner of an out building and backed a salt truck into the wall of the out building. It totaled my sled that was sitting in it and it looked like a bomb went off. Their reasoning....too many accounts and the new guy was in a hurry in the dark. They fixed and replaced it all, accidents happen and since I plow myself I understand the job. But I am happy for the opportunity to help a small on man operation.


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## FinerCuts

Yeap, had a buddy that was doing some huge lots and lost them to a "New" lawncare company. Now, his rates were about right on the money for each push. These guys came in and are charging $35 per hour in a truck. Each of these companies trucks are brand new. Rumor has it some guy wanted to start a lawncare business and beings he has good credit he took out a huge loan and bought everything brand new. Now, how he is going to pay for all of it is beyond me. $35 and hour per truck- say 12-15 an hour for employee labor...you can do the math from there. GUYS DO NOT SWEAT IT, THESE DORKS WON'T BE PLOWING VERY LONG.


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## swtiih

Eggie329;1153446 said:


> My phone was ringing off the hook with this storm we got Sunday. Wasn't a huge snow, but 4-6 inches is pretty big for the first "plowable" snow. My phone was ringing constantly with customers apologizing for taking the low bid since they never showed up and if they did couldn't clear the snow. One customer slammed me this Fall saying my service is over priced compared to the deal they got this year for $50 for the season. They gave them the $50 upfront and told me have a nice day. So they called me apologizing for complaining and asking if I could come plow them out and help the other company get out of the driveway since they got stuck using a 2wd truck! I can't stop laughing since they fired me for the cheap guy and he got stuck in their driveway. Apparently he was stuck for about 6 hours since he didn't stake and went off the driveway into a ditch.


Did you take any pictures


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## TPC Services

Na I love them I'm one of them an it's the best thing ever!! that way I can here all u new lowballers ***** about it!!


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## Kris_Kris

Mick76;1140631 said:


> Maybe hes subbing for AGMG..... As Rich has stated, $35 ph for a truck is the going rate........  Thumbs Up


Why on earth would anyone charge by the hour? Would you buy a cheese burger if they quoted you a price by the hour? The better you are at plowing, the less you get paid. That is just stupid and everyone wants a flat rate per push and you can charge more for it. If you tell some one $60.00 per hour and you know it is a one hour job, or $100.00 flat. They will take the $100.00 every time. If you hustle, you could make $100.00 per hour.
We always averaged $200.00 per hour on flat rate.


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## swtiih

Kris_Kris;1158593 said:


> Why on earth would anyone charge by the hour? Would you buy a cheese burger if they quoted you a price by the hour? The better you are at plowing, the less you get paid. That is just stupid and everyone wants a flat rate per push and you can charge more for it. If you tell some one $60.00 per hour and you know it is a one hour job, or $100.00 flat. They will take the $100.00 every time. If you hustle, you could make $100.00 per hour.
> We always averaged $200.00 per hour on flat rate.


Exactly, When someone works per hour there could be a tendency to become a diary farmer and really milk the job.


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## Kris_Kris

swtiih;1158758 said:


> Exactly, When someone works per hour there could be a tendency to become a diary farmer and really milk the job.


And even then they are limited on what they can earn. $35.00 per hour x 24 hours in a day. You could never make more than $840 in a day if you could plow 24 hours straight. I will make that in 4 hours on flat rate.


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## kah68

To me a low baller is someone who doesn't know thier costs, does not have liability insurance, does not pay into workmans compensation, does not maintain their equipment and or have back up equipment to maintian service. He/She gets a feel for the going rate in an area and undercuts good contractors. The amount is besides the point, if a good contractor under bids me I'm ok with that, it's the dildos who are doing it for beer money that really burn my ass. I will be here next year and beyond, will the low baller?


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## dforbes

Kris_Kris;1158593 said:


> Why on earth would anyone charge by the hour? Would you buy a cheese burger if they quoted you a price by the hour? The better you are at plowing, the less you get paid. That is just stupid and everyone wants a flat rate per push and you can charge more for it. If you tell some one $60.00 per hour and you know it is a one hour job, or $100.00 flat. They will take the $100.00 every time. If you hustle, you could make $100.00 per hour.
> We always averaged $200.00 per hour on flat rate.


Maybe because that is what the customer wants. My personal route consists of 1 cutomer. They expect me to show up when it starts snowing. They expect me to stay there until the storm is over and everthing is clean to wet pavement. After it quits snowing it takes 4 to 5 hours to clear. Then for the next few days I must respond at all shift changes and reapply ice melt where needed. I must also clean any areas where cars were parked and snow remains. There have been many days I have set on this lot for hours with snow falling and not sticking. I spent 9 hours there once with it raining because it was supposed to turn to ice but it never did. This was at their request. They pay a good hourly rate and I make more money on this account than I could on the routes that I sub out because I must respond to any snow. I don't have travel time between jobs or the extra fuel to travel between jobs. They insist on being charged hourly because of the uncertanty how long it takes from storm to storm. The 16 inch storm we had a few years ago I spent 70 hours straight on this property.


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## linckeil

this thread is identical to one that was just shut down the other day by the moderators. go to the first post and replace the word "crackheads" with "illegals" and its the same post. only difference is people here are sympathisizing with the OP, whereas in the thread that was shut down, those same people were calling the OP a racist and questioning how he knew they were illegals - for which he gave proof.

yet those same people are not asking the OP here how he knows for sure these people are "crackheads" and the mods haven't shut this one down.... hmmmmmmm....

anyway, if you saw the thread i am referring to before it was deleted (and i'm sure many of you did) you know my point.


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## MattR

linckeil;1163188 said:


> anyway, if you saw the thread i am referring to before it was deleted (and i'm sure many of you did) you know my point.


I seen it and agree with you about it. Maybe crackheads rank higher than illegals...lol. The thread might get shut down if those crackheads were ALSO illegals. They might be since both work cheap.


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## etpros

ok ok, ill admit me and my buddy usally low ball, only so we can get the job. its not like i bid like that person but i am pretty low


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## KevinCarter1988

Next year will be my first year plowing for myself. I have been working for a company for 3 years driving there vehicle for 25/hr but only on a 2in run but I will only have 1 vehicle and two snow blowers and I hope to get 35plus a driveway going any lower wouldnt make it worth while for me by myself. It seems like alot of work to keep everyone happy. You cant really look down on the guy who doesnt have all the money to spend on starting a huge company with alot of equiptment right off the bat but we all have to start some where right?


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## Snow Commandor

What I'm seeing here in North Jersey is so many small-time no-name guys doing commercial parking lots. And even worse, the residential customers I used to do are going with what-ever kids come knocking on their door before I get there. This ecconnomy brings out all these low-lifes like I've never seen befor. So much for customer loyalty.


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