# Western V Plow, Cracked Welds, and Creases! - Part 2 (Pics)



## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

OK, here we go. Remember these pics are from a cheap disposable camera. First of all, this is the "stop" design on the 9.5'. In the pic, right "below" the angle ram, is a square steel plate that is rusted. This contacts the plate on the moldboard just "above" and to the left of the trip spring in the pic.

~Chuck


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Here is a view of the stop on the opposite side, making contact with the stop on the moldboard. You can almost see the crack along the top of the stop on the moldboard.

~Chuck


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Here you can see the crack in the stop on the moldboard.

~Chuck


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Here you can see the crack to the left of the angle ram. It is cracked in the same place on the other wing as well.

~Chuck


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

A view of the same cracked weld, from the opposite side.

~Chuck


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Here you can see the crease from the angle ram mounting area, diagonally up toward the top of the plow.

~Chuck


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Here you can see the crack in the left wing weld.

~Chuck


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Here is a closer view of the crease in the left wing.

~Chuck


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Here is a pic of the F450 the plow is mounted on.

~Chuck


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Here is a pic of the base angle. Quite different than the base angle on the 8.5' model. From the front the cutting edges look like they have plenty of meat left, but, you can see here the base angle is starting to wear already. I can say side by side with a Western straight blade, the straight blade was scraping much better.

~Chuck


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## tru cut (Jan 11, 2000)

Chuck,Looks the same as my 9.5 fisher all the same cracks and creases !!


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## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

I have repaired a few with those types of cracks.I haven't seen any creased moldboards yet.

After repairing all the welds,I notched the vertical ribs,and welded in a piece of 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 rectangular tubing between the two inner ribs all the way over to angled rib which is cracked,to help box in the area.It stopped the cracking,and I'm sure it could only help in the twisting or creasing of the moldboard.


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

Chuck,good pics. I dont know what to say except that is seriously teaked plow.Im dissapointed,as a western fan,and user i expected more from that plow,in the way of durability. You can see that truck isnt heavy,and you said it hadnt been abused.Have you contacted western about it?.They must knopw about it,you would think they would have reinforced wings or brackets to stiffen them,for a field fix by now. My Boss 9'2" has had nothing happen like that at all.I bet my truck weight is close to yours at 11000-12000lbs.


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

That is crease for crease,crack for crack EXACTLY what the Fishers are doing!I have welded those same cracks so many times it aint funny and now the last one i welded also had a cracked A frame beyond welding!Now these guys are hard on equipment but come on,this is a pain:realmad: The dealers claim there are no problems,i find this hard to believe as i see it first hand every week.


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## snow_man_48045 (Nov 24, 2002)

Must be nice to have a V-plow?? Having to pay almost 5 grand and turn around and weld, and modify it. This is sad, and an unexceptable product constuction. That plow doesn't look that old in the pics. I was thinking about purchasing a v- plow, but now probly not. keep the straight blades, and keep using the loader with the snow pusher. I don't know about you guys, but I can't aford a 4-5 grand for a pile of scrape steal that I have to weld on every year or so. 
How is the Boss V holding up???


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Well,I'm not the one buying them,I'm the one making $$$ welding them,even so,your right,it is unacceptable,at the same time there are alot of guys running them who are not having any probs and love them,go figure?


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## Jerre Heyer (Mar 19, 2002)

Chuck,

Got to love those Western/Fisher V plow's. The 9.6 weights in quite a bit heavier than the 8.6 and affects the truck differently when plowing.

For the base angle wear check the A frame profile when the plow is dropped and have someone watch while you plow. We remounted several to sit higher at the truck putting the A frame level or slightly high at the truck. You might see a little more edge wear though.

Nice picts from a disposable camera.

Jerre


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## MGardner (Nov 27, 2001)

Sooooo would a guy Mig weld those joints,or use a stick ,say 7018?


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## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

I was my dealer to pick up a plow motor, and I saw some of the new ones they had on the lot.

They shortened up the torque box, and added a triangle, similar to what I drew on this pic.

Still doesn't explain the other cracks in the spring stop and moldboard mount. Seems like it will help the tweaking of that torque box aera, and keep those welds from cracking.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

As I mentioned in the other thread, the plow is about a year old. It plowed one storm last winter, that was about 2". This winter, it plowed 2 storms before I began driving it, and it was cracked when I got it. As I did point out, I plowed the 24" snowfall we got, with the cracks and creases, with no apparent additional damage. That doesn't make up for the damage that did occur.

snow_man_48045 - This is a known common problem with the Fisher 9.5' plows, and in this case, the Western 9.5' plow. As far as I know, the 8.5' Western does not have this problem. BOSS plows had (or have) a problem with the metal tearing at the center hinge. Pics have been posted before of that issue. That would not stop me from buying a V plow though. To each his own.

I have not contacted Western, but I will e mail them a link to this thread (if they have not read it already).

I too think it is unacceptable for a brand new plow. I can only imagine the additional damage if the truck had a spreader on the back, or 2 tons of ballast when plowing.

~Chuck


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Chuck,one of the 9.5 V's that i keep fixing is on a F-450 dump with a V-box,a whole lotta weight!this plow is just under 2 years old and the dealer refuses to fix it under warranty anymore,I'm not sure what to keep doing,you can only weld and brace so much,make it to strong and the poor truck is going to take beating!
Now i'm not about to sit here and tell you that this plow is used gently,it's beat,it see's 2 small paved lots and the rest,75+ long gravel drives.The 9 Fisher straight blade it replaced hung strong for 6 years(on a F350) which also tells me something,as it was explained to me,these newer heavier trucks 450,550 etc,are just that,to heavy for the plows,i suppose a lot will disagree but the numbers don't lie.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Here is a good picture showing the difference in the angle stops between the 8.5' and the 9.5'.

Arc, it would be nice to see some pics of how you repair these blades.

The 8.5' angles all the way until the stop hits the A frame. The 9.5' stops when it hits the angle bracket, before it hits the A frame, which is what limits how far it angles (a common complaint, not enough angle). The lack of angle limits windrowing ability, as with any more than 1/2 a plow width (even in shallow snow) you get trail off.

~Chuck


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## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

Chuck, any help from western on this? Or are they calling it "customer abuse"

Geoff


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

Chuck,id have to say the stop looks much better on the 9.5.It looks like it was moved out to reduce leverage on the center pin,and it should be stronger than the 8.5. This is how it looks to me.Maybe the truck was beat hard last yr,and the driver used momentum to plow,since he had no traction/weight. It does seems like those trucks are too heavy for that blade. Maybe the 10 ft Boss is the answer if you want a V on a 450/550? Just a guess,but I know its rated for over 20000GVWR trucks. Ill tell you this my friend has a 9 ft Fisher MC on his F550,he babys this truck,is as gentle as can be,it only has a 2 yard spreader in it,and his plow is trashed after 4 seasons,and last yr we had almost no snow. He is very disappointed in the plow too.It almost sheered the trip spring mounts right off,they tore up,and bent up on him.


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## 99SDPSD (Jan 20, 2001)

Chuck. It is bad that this has happened. I run a 9'2" boss on my f550 that I bought used. Due to liking the old RT-II hitch system and want to be able to move the plow with my other truck due to not many around here with Boss's. My thought was is that is the Western being 4" wider than a Boss is it really putting that must more strain on the A frame? May be their is something to be said for the heavier hinge tower and the way the pistons are mounted parallel to the blade rather than off of the A frame. I really don't know the answer but it is an observation.

In regards to the comment about the weight of 450's & 550's.
My 550 weighs approximately.
550 10,040 lbs with me in it.
plow 980 lbs
ballast2000 lbs
total 13,020 lbs

My 99 350 I had.
350 9,700 lbs with me in it.
plow 980 lbs
ballast 2000 lbs
total 12,680 lbs

For a weight difference of 340lbs. You guys tell me how much it will impact tell plow.


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## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

I was looking at a F550 this morning,with a 9.5 western V and the plow was mint.It has only been on for this season,but has had a fair bit of use.No cracks or twisting noted anywhere.Maybe they have improved on them some ?

As far as weight goes,I think it more comes into play when the trucks are loaded.This F550 I was looking at has a heavy dump box,salter,central hydros,and a prewet system all on board.Stuff it full of salt with the plow on and it's gotta be upwards of 19 or 20 K + easily.You would not get that kind of weight on a smaller F250 or F350 safely.That kind of weight would be a lot harder on a light duty plow.


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## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

The problem I see is Fisher is taking the metal out of their plows. I know they had to drop the weight on the small plows under 8' to get them on the half ton trucks and stuff. However the past couple years they have been getting the weight lower on the big plows to. The big 10' blades they weight on those has gone from 1800 to 1500, and why? People buying a 10 blade are going to but them on a Heavy Duty truck with a 10 to 12K front end. The same thing with the 9.5' v-plow, 2 years ago they never would have put that thing on a 1 ton dump. Now they are being installed left and right. Why because the customer wanted a a bigger v-plow, the 8.5' was to small for a 1 ton dump. So rather than take an 8.5' v-plow and work from that, adding 3" to each side to keep the weight down, and selling the customer a 9' v-plow. They take a 9.5' v-plow and build it light and cheap, so it can be used on a larger platfrom of truck. The 9.5' v-plow has the ablility to be a good plow, with some more metal in it, I am sure it would work well from the 15K to 19K gvw market ( the ford 450 /550 and GM 4500 /5500) . However in the day and age of profit, Fisher rather than produce another model, has decided to increase profits rather than increase quality. 

It could be a really simple product line, and it would fix everyones problems. 

1. 3/4 and 1 ton pick ups, would get the 8.5' v-plow.
2. 1 ton DRW trucks would get a 9' v-plow. However this v-plow would share many parts of the 8.5', the major difference would be wings that were 3" wider. Yes the A-fram may have to be stronger, to work for 2 models, however it wouldn't hurt the 8.5' with a stronger A-frame.
3. Then they could build a rugged 9.5' v-plow, that would work behind the 15000 19000 gvw trucks. The truck have the front end, to take a heavier plow. 

However again they would rather have higher profits than lower quality. 

Just look at the weight specs they don't lie, 8.5' v-plow weighs 810. 9.5' v-plow weighs 870, hmm 70lbs of extra weight, big deal. It is no suprise on why these things are cracking up.

Geoff


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## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

Excellent points regarding the v-blades.

Maybe Western will come out with a Pro-plus type V-blade with a little more beef for the 15-19K GVW trucks.Western,are you listening ?


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

99PSD,your 9'2" V's have been holding up good?. Mine has been great. The hinge and plows looks to be much beefier on my Boss, I dont think I have stops either,I have to go look at it,maybe ill get some pics of it to compare later.


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

99PSD,i can see your point,but your talkin 2000 lbs of ballast,I'm talkin dump body with overloaded(yes,most do it!) sander on back,so yes,i still believe weight is an issue,to compare the plows having probs to your F350 is no comparison,I'm sure your numbers are correct but the ballast here is nowere's close.

Chuck,I'm kinda of a computer idiot so to speek but my brother has a digital camera so i'll try to get him to help me!


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## Jerre Heyer (Mar 19, 2002)

Chuck, 

Saw the same type of damage on the 8.6 Fishers and western as the 9.6 you post. Several have added there own stops to limit plow travel after crushing the bottom out of the cyl as the plow wears.

The welder ( mig with 708 series wire ) can run overtime on repairs for this unit. Stress due to impact is not a factor......LOL because snow is soft and fluffy everyone knows that.

I agree these plows should hold up to far more use than they do before repair. 

Item of note is the Fisher trip edge and Western trip edge do not have a stop like they used to to limit back travel and several have smashed the springs into the front of the moldboard hard enough to push the board out and tear out the top stop for the springs.

Just my observations in the repair shed.

Old welder says "send more rod and send more money"

Jerre


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

John,

I was thinking the same thing about the better support for the stops on the 9.5 vs. the 8.5. Isn't it odd that the 9.5 is the one that is cracking and creasing? 

Yes,the tower is built much stronger to support the hinge area, I think that the welds that cracked do so in part to not enough support. By that I mean instead of a 6" long support being welded from the hinge to the wing, maybe a 12" piece would be better? The stop being as far out as it is should help support the wing better than the 8.5. 

The 8.5 is not cracking, which is puzzling. Especially when you consider that there is without a doubt "cowboy" drivers with loaded V boxes, bagged product on the sides of the V box sitting on the bed floor for walks, and the 8.5 mounted on F-350's. I can assure you they weigh much more than the F-450 I am driving with no ballast at all.

Geoff, I have a Western brochure here, and the weights are listed as follows:

MVP85 - (Approx. Weight Complete) - 880#

MVP95 - (Approx. Weight Complete) - 1049#

(Sent Western an e mail this morning, waiting to hear back before I call them and get put on hold...)


Question for Arc Burn, have you seen this cracking on 8.5' Western V plows? 

Fisher 8.5' V plows?

As far as Boss, I think at this point, there is only one Boss dealer in NJ, but I am not sure, and I am also not sure that they are an authorized dealer. I have seen only a handful of Boss plows in all my travels around the state in the past 2 years (and we are talking thousands of miles).

~Chuck


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## River Hill (Mar 14, 2000)

I have one of the new style 8'6" Western MVP with UltraMount. They are making the 8'6" more like the larger MVP. I will take some pictures tonight. The complete plow weight 1108lbs. This was the weight shipped. The brochures are off a bit. If there are any specific areas people want pictures of let me know.


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Chuck,so far this is only on the 9.5 Fisher,I have not seen any Westerns around my area,there are however,2 Fisher 8.5's both on 3/4 ton chevys,one with minimal ballast and the other has a slide in dump unit(empty)and these two plows are also run HARD with no problems that we speak of.

The weight thing i spoke of was just someones explanation to me of the problems,perhaps it isnt a factor but the worst one i have seen(i never welded on,just saw it!)was a Town truck F-550 with steel dump,3yd sander(overloaded) with the 9.5,in its second or third time out,it came back with the creases,then came the broken welds and finnally the passenger side wing came back on a seperate truck,it had been ripped completly off.


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## nben (Jan 22, 2003)

As many of you know, we have a couple of 8.5' Fisher vees and a 9.5' Fisher vee. First, I would like to point out a few observations.

In my area we see very few plows that aren't Fishers. Fisher is a Maine company and Maine people are a loyal, stubborn bunch. Yes, I see a few Westerns, lately a few Bosses, and even a Meyer or two, but Fisher is 3:1 easily in this area. I have never seen a Western vee up close. When I started "lurking" this site early last fall, there was quite a bit of talk about the improvements that Western had made to their vees compared to Fisher, especially in the a-frame area. From observation, I realized that the Western 8.5' vee had positive stops on the angling rams, and the trip angle was completely different from Fisher's cutting edge/trip angle design. I assumed that the Western 9.5 vee had similar likenesses to its 8.5' little brother. After seeing the pics that Chuck has posted above, I was surprised to see that the Western 9.5' vee *Appears* to be identical to Fisher's design *including* the positive angle stops, trip edge/angle, and the a-frame. There were no pictures of the headgear, but I have seen Western headgears before, and I assume that Western uses it's own headgear design on their 9.5' vee.

Geoff,
I agree and disagree with what you are saying. The Fisher/Western 9.5 foot plow could definitely be built heavier. This plow is being installed on a wide range of weight class trucks and is probably "under-built" for some of its intended applications. This probably holds true with Fisher's entire product line. The 9.5' vee that we have is built heavier than our 8.5' vees. It is not just a 8.5' plow with 6" added to each side. As I stated above, it definitely could be built heavier. I will say that our HD3500 with a 10' vee box and 9.5' plow rarely leaves our shop weighing less than 20,000 lbs. We have had very little trouble with this plow, which is on its 4th season now. If we were to experience any weld cracking, or other damage for that matter, at this point I wouldn't place blame on the plow. As I stated above, this truck regularly leaves the shop 25% overloaded. Any failure that would have, or will occur, I will blame on myself, not the plow. I know that this does not pertain to those who do not overload their trucks, but we do, and most contractors around here overload as well. In fact, there are only a handful of area landscape contractors that run anything heavier than a 1 ton. I'm not saying it's right, and that's an entirely different issue. I'm just saying that I wouldn't want a plow that weighed too much more, as it would just compound the weight issues in our, and most other peoples situation.

Now, as far as damage consistent throughout Fisher and Western's product line, I can't speak for Western because I have no experience with them and any comments would be purely speculation. I can, however, speak of our firsthand experience with Fisher products. My father has been in the snow business for 30 plus years and has always used Fisher plows (remember, loyal/stubborn). All of the plows over the years have had their fair share of problems. All of our vee's have the "creases" on the rear of the mold boards. Our 9.5' vee was one of the original "first year" 9.5' plows. Our dealer told us that only a select few were manufactured and 8 of them were sold in Maine for a "trial run". Mid winter that first season, a few Fisher reps. came to our shop to take pictures, make adjustments, and get some feedback. When they saw the rear of our moldboards (8.5s too) one of them stated "oh, you've got the creases too". They assured us (my father and I) that this was common and had no adverse effects on the plows operation or its durability. I have spent quite a few hours a our dealers garage and have seen a lot of damage to quite a few vees, 8.5 included. I have seen cracked welds, bent/broken rams, pins, etc. I have seen center pin weld failure on both 8.5' and 9.5' vees.

Chuck, 
I have never seen creases as deep as those in the pictures that you have posted. The pictures may be deceiving, but those are *deep* . I do not think that this is normal and is definatly the result of severe abuse/use and/or faulty manufacturing. I hope that Western does the right thing and stands behind that plow! The broken weld on the angle stop screams inferiority as it's not an area that sees a lot of lateral sheer or any rearward pull. All equipment has its limitations and failures, but it doesn't seem as though this plow's damage is entirely consistent with what I have seen on any of Fisher's (I understand that Western MVP and Fisher vees are made side by side in the same plant?). It will be interesting to hear their response. Keep us posted! 
Nate


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

I am still trying to visualize the torque needed to crease the supports, and where the torque needs to be applied? Clearly Western / Fisher knew that area needed additional support, and they chose formed (I am guessing) 12 gauge steel. Why not a few braces like on the back of their 10' Heavyweight plows? I would have used (easy to say) 3 pieces of 3/8" flat stock horizontally between the ribs, instead of the formed steel.

Nate, you say that that your "original" Fisher V creased, and the factory reps aknowledged the creases. Did you abuse your plow? Have the creases gotten any deeper? I agree the creases on this Western look deep, IMO, but I have nothing to compare them to. When I first saw them, it looked like someone whacked both sides with a sledge hammer.... Do the creases occur from stacking in the scoop position? I would like to think that if excessive force was applied to a wing, the hydraulics would allow the wing to fold back. (Lord knows you can't change the blade angle when windrowing). Do the creases occur when plowing in the V position? This plow doesn't even have a scratch on the moldboard yet. You can see the powdercoat lifting in may places on the back of the moldboard from twisting.

IF you look at some of the pics of Dockboy's plow (in another thread), you will see where he mangled the cutting edge from hitting a cast iron water shut off. It bent the edge pretty bad, but no welds cracked, and there are no creases.

This is what leads me to believe it is happening when stacking. Any opinions? Next year the plan was to buy 4 more V plows, and they were giong to be Westerns, but now I am unsure, if this is a known problem with no fix or support.

~Chuck

Nate, here is a shot of the headgear (best I have, sorry).


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nben _
> *(I understand that Western MVP and Fisher vees are made side by side in the same plant?). It will be interesting to hear their response. Keep us posted!
> Nate *


Like Nate said, I knew the Fisher and Western Vee's were made side by side and that the moldboards and hydrolics were the same. In fact, during the President's Day storm, I had to replace my cutting edge and used a Fisher 8.5 edge and rubber center piece

With that being said, why do they not install the positive stops on the Fisher 8.5 like they do on the Western 8.5 Is it because of a difference in the A-frame?

Chuck, I'm going to have to start charging you for use of pictures! LOL!! J/K!

Here is a pic of my 8.5 with wing retracted to the A-frame for comparison to the 9.5.


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## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

The spring right after the 8.5' was released. Fisher had told my dealer they would be building a 9' v-plow for the drw trucks because they 8.5' was too small. Well shortly after the 450 /550 hit the street, and the v-plow went from 9 to 9.5' so it could be marketed towards a large group of trucks.

I am from Maine, and yes I do like fisher plows, thats what we buy at work. However I see it more and more, they are cutting weight, to expand the market for the plow. They don't want to build a special plow for the 15K up market because the profit isn't high enough, its simple biz. The bottom line is I am not happy with the way fisher is doing biz.

Geoff


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2003)

Nate,

Here is a pic of the Western 8.5 Unimount head gear.

As you can see, I don't have to worry about mangled edges anymore!

Greg


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

The majority of 9.5's that i see were at the very least creased in the first year,a couple were even just a few times out with minimal snow.I've never talked to a Fisher Rep,but 3 dealers i have spoke to all deny any problems we are talking about,including the dealer who refused any further warranty work on one that i spoke of above,he claims it was "shear abuse" After the first or second trip out?I don't think so.
Maybe it was a poor design,maybe it was poor quality steel(anythings possible)But why is it just a handfull of us seeing this?The guys who don't have any probs with them must think we are crazy ,I have also seen more hoses,cylinders and pins bust break and leak than you can shake a stick at!That stuff usually goes back to the dealer or guys fix it themselves,i just weld them back together but jeez,it's startin to give me a complex 
Just this afternoon one of the same plows came in with 2 cracks in the headgear,I DON"T KNOW:realmad: 

I am looking at new trucks now and will need a new plow also this fall and right now i don't know what the hexx i will get?I have always had Fishers but i personnaly will not tolerate those problems,not after spending that kind of money.


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## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

Dockboy, where did you get the hairpin lanyards?


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## River Hill (Mar 14, 2000)

*New style 8'6" MVP*

Notice the changes. It is more like the 9'5", but maybe even beefier.


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## River Hill (Mar 14, 2000)

Another Angle


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## River Hill (Mar 14, 2000)

Another


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## River Hill (Mar 14, 2000)

Last one


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2003)

SnowGodFather,

The guy's at the dealer put them on when they installed the plow. Pretty nice huh?  They would be easy to make. Take some picture hanging wire and crimp some eyes on.

River Hill,

Is that the new Ultra Mount? OOPPPS! I see! To late

Greg


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## River Hill (Mar 14, 2000)

I think some of your stress cracks maybe from the plow not pivoting from side to side. What I mean is the floating. If you take a look at the above picture and you look at the large bolt and nut in the center of the plow. This is allows the plow to pivot from side to side. Maybe Western realized they had some problems, this is why the redeisgned it?


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## nben (Jan 22, 2003)

Chuck,
I too have done a lot of thinking about the forces of the crease causing. Makes sense to me that the crease is caused when the wing is "twisted". With the crease running diagonally like it does, the outboard edge would have to be twisted back towards the truck. I bet if you took a wing off and laid it on a cement floor, the outside portion of the cutting edge would be elevated while the top of the moldboard and inside part of the cutting edge would be flush? Makes sense to me. I also wonder if all plows don't twist a little. The only reason we know that the vees are twisting is because they have "boxed" a section of the moldboard in with sheet metal. On a straight blade (Fisher, as well as some others) there is no box to crease. You potentially could twist a plow quite a bit and probably not ever know it. I think that the biggest problem we are going to run into is the "stretching" of the opposing welds which in turn causes cracks. If you think about the overall construction, it probably wouldn't take much of a twist to cause that to buckle. .25"-.50"?, just a guess. I'm sure that the severity of the crease directly correlates to the amount of twist though. 

I have no idea when or at what point our plows gained their creases. It definitely was in the first season for each. We have one 8.5' that is only creased on one side, but that truck doesn't see the use that the others do. We also have a sub with a 8.5' with creases on both sides. His plow is on its second season. The creases don't seem to be getting any worse, and none of the four plows are showing any signs of cracking yet. I wasn't too concerned about it because the Fisher guys didn't seem to get too upset when we pointed it out to them. There is a fairly large company around the corner from me that runs Fisher vees almost exclusively. I will try and swing by in the next few days and see what theirs look like. I bet they have 10-12 of them. 

River Hill,
I like what I see there. I think you may be onto something about the articulation. They also seem to moving the stops even farther back. Seems to me that doing that also would help support the outer portion of the wing and maybe disperse the twisting force back to the headgear. 

The headgear is quite different from a Fisher set-up, but essential appears to do the same function. The a-frame on the 8.5' looks identical to a Fisher set-up with the exception of the angle stop landing point. Hard to say for sure without seeing one up close. Of course that new Western isn't even close. I wonder if Fisher is/has changed theirs. 

Geoff,
I agree with you completely that Fisher is lightening their plows. I have been around their plows my entire life and have noticed the changes. I actually think I have the "Old Stubborn One" talked into trying a Blizzard next year. I am always trying to find a "better mouse trap" for all of the services that we provide. 

Chuck,
One more thing. Looks like that hydraulic line running over the a-frame could get pinched by the headgear when stacking. It may have stops though, I can't tell from the picture.


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

River Hill, thats a very good point about the articulation,when i saw your pictures that bolt really stood out and i wondered about it untill you mentioned it,I believe thats one of the strongest arguements i've heard yet,how bout it Chuck,guys?what do ya think?


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

I may be a little slow on this one, but the broken welds that are further in than the cyls might be from folding the plow into scoop while under huge load. 
It looks like the wing would need to fold forward, while the pivot point is being pushed backward. Does that make sense? I'm not sure how that would happen, maybe as you pull into a pile, while scooping forward?

As for the stops being broken, I can't see how that happens, I printed some of the pictures out, I'll ask one of my Profs tomorrow, see if he can do a force vector diagram, I'm curious to see how it happens and can be prevented as well!

-John


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## River Hill (Mar 14, 2000)

Another picture of the articulation of the plow. As you can see there are stops so it can only go about 3/4" up or down. It's not alot but enough to reduce stress.

In this same picture you can see a bolt that is inside the bar. There are 2 on each side. If you loosen these you can fine adjust you cutting edge. This will get rid of the typical smiling face a cutting edge gets on V plows.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

LGF, I had a Western 8.5' V installed in August, and they put the lanyards on the pins too. It looked OEM to me at the time.

The more I think about the twisting, the more I think it is due to stacking in the scoop position. When stacking, the plow always hits the stops because it wants to go higher than the stops will allow. The additional force is transferred to the top of the wing. Since the bottom part of each wing is supported by the angle cylinder, which holds fast (relief does not open and allow fluid to leave the ram) it leads me to believe that force is being applied in an upward motion, to the outside top edges of the wings. That portion has no support behind it, and nothing attached to it to hold it in position. So I think the answer is not to try and stack too high, in ANY position. I don't know that the Ultra Mount pivot will help, because it is still an upward force on both ends of the plow when stacking straight in the scoop position.

I used to have a Western conventional mount on an old Jeep, and when stacking, I though the plow was going to flip back onto the hood of the Jeep it went so high!

As Nate said, it probably happens with straight plows too, but the entire length of the moldboard flexes (or is able to flex and absorb the torque) so it is less noticable. I can say I used my old Meyer hard at times, and never cracked a weld. I had it laying down on the face of the moldboard many times on a smooth concrete floor, and it did not wobble, so I don't think it was tweaked.

Nate, the one angle hose looks like it can get pinched, but the stops prevent that from happening. If the hose had a quick coupler on it, I would have re-routed it myself on the spot whne I first noticed it. At this point, it is scheduled as an off season task. I will probably have our mechanic replace it as well.



> Snowybowtie " may be a little slow on this one, but the broken welds that are further in than the cyls might be from folding the plow into scoop while under huge load.
> It looks like the wing would need to fold forward, while the pivot point is being pushed backward. Does that make sense? I'm not sure how that would happen, maybe as you pull into a pile, while scooping forward?"


I think you have it backwards... It is almost exactly what you said, only when in the scoop stacking under load, the wings are supported by the rams, so the rams act as a fulcrum (pivot point), as the torque is applied to the outer ends, the welds on the opposite side of the fulcrum cracked, IMO. Remember there is what, 3 feet on one side of the fulcrum, and 12" on the other side? That is A LOT of leverage on those welds.

I had the truck this past weekend because we were supposed to get snow Friday, but got none. When I dropped off the truck at the yard, our mechanic was there, and I showed him the cracks and told him they needed to be repaired, as well as the one angle stop. He thought the creases was just the powder coat lifting..... which concerned me (that he didn't notice the real problem).

He is actually the one that assembled this plow, and installed it on the truck, because he used to work for the dealer we buy all our equipment from before he came to work for us.

I received a reply to my e mail I sent to Western. They said most of the staff is at the NTEA show, and will be back in a few days. I should expect a reply then. The problem was also passed on to the technical department for review. I figure by Monday I should hear back from them.

I have a feeling now the cracked welds will be repaired this week, because there is snow in the forecast, and I pointed out the damage to our mechanic. He is also going to pick up new steel edges for the plow, and an edge for 2 of our Western straight plows. One of them clipped a curb plowing during the blizzard, and cracked the corner off the cutting edge. The edge is about half worn, so we are going to replace it.

Glad I got a reply today from Western, even ifit was a "we'll get back to you on this" type of reply. I got it at 8pm, so someone is working late there!

~Chuck


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## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Snowybowtie _
> *I may be a little slow on this one, but the broken welds that are further in than the cyls might be from folding the plow into scoop while under huge load.
> It looks like the wing would need to fold forward, while the pivot point is being pushed backward. Does that make sense? I'm not sure how that would happen, maybe as you pull into a pile, while scooping forward?
> 
> ...


I think it would do more on the windrowing positions, that would put you at the stops on both sides with lots of force being exerted.

Chuck did say it does not windrow well.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

I might add, that by adjusting the "crossover relief" (or whatever it's called on these plows with double acting cylinders) to allow the wings to fold with less force might allieviate the problem, by allowing the wings to fold back as you go into a pile in the scoop position..... it also might not be such a good idea, because then the wings might want to fold back when windrowing heavy wet snow. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The answer has to be to strengthen the moldboard.

Not to go off topic, but did anyone notice Boss went to X bracing across the back of the moldboards on their trip edge plows?

~Chuck


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## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

Yes and so did Fisher on their "X-Blade", must be a new trend.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

LGF, it does not windrow well because it does not angle as much as a straight plow.

You can see in the pics of the angle stops how it is limited more than the 8.5' Dockboy has. I would assume that River Hill's won't angle as far as Dockboy's either, with the new angle stop design.

For example, in the Western brochure I have, the full angle plowing width of the 9.5' V is 8' 10". The full angle plowing width of the 9' straight plow is 7' 10". That is a 12" difference, but the V is only 6" longer than the straight plow. I think this illustrates how much more a straight plow angles compared to the V. 

Then again, the 8.5 Pro Plow full angle plowing width is 7' 4", while the 8.5' MVP's full angle plowing width is 7' 6". Only a 2" difference. I think this indicates that the 8.5' V angles almost as much as the 8.5' straight plow.

I hope I explained my point  


~Chuck


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chuck Smith _
> *I used to have a Western conventional mount on an old Jeep, and when stacking, I though the plow was going to flip back onto the hood of the Jeep it went so high!
> 
> ~Chuck *


Chuck, My 8.5 Unimount has no upward stops. That's one of te reasons I can stack snow 12-14' high. The problem is, when I get a little over zealous, the top of the hinge where the center deflector bolts hits the lift arm. Most of this happened the last big storm.

Greg


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Greg, that being true (no stops to regulate lift height) I think it reinforces my hypothesis about the creases and torque transfer...

When stacking with the 9.5' V, the plow hits the stops every time.

~Chuck

(Looks like you'll need a torch if you ever need to get out those bolts for the left wing!)


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2003)

Chuck,

Those bolts only hold the center deflector on. They are not a structural part of the plow.

Greg


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

Chuck.I didnt notice the windrowing problems with my V's. Both my Boss,and 8.5 western seem to angle as sharp as the straight blades. I justwent on the Boss site,and the 9'2" at full angle is 95" wide.I hope Western does something for you .That plow has been wrecked in no time at all. If stacking in the scoop position bends them then Dockboy's 8.5 should look like a pretzel . It doesnt make any sense to me,that they release a plow that flimsy for such a HD truck,I could understand this problem on a homeowner plow on a compact truck,this stuff is supposed to be professional grade equipment.There is no excuse for Western here,If they do not make good on your blade I sure will rethink any future purchases of their products. I didnt get time to get batterys for my camera today,but i ran out and looked it over,I see no stops at all on the plow blade,and it appears the 9.5 Western is built heavier duty as far as the A frame and braces. The western 's wings are only 2" longer than my Boss,so they are pretty close there.It looks as if my Boss should bend easier than your western. My 8.5 MVP has no bends or creases in the wings,but the a frame is bent ever so slightly towards the pass side . It looks much weaker than the new design A frame.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Amazing, this thread has gotten 1466 views, and 58 replies, in just over 24 hours!

Off topic I know.... but that is a lot of views!

~Chuck


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## paul soccodato (Nov 9, 2002)

i don't own a v-plow, but i have been researching them for awhile now.

the problems with the welds cracking, and the blade itself creasing is a definite sign of some serious flexing. 

personally, i think that the stops, and the points where the angeling rams connect are too far in, and the blade itself needs to be stiffened. 

the greatest time this flexing is happening is when stacking snow, especially in the "scoop" position, then all of the strain is on the points where the rams mount. the area on the moldboard around this point is rigid, while the rest of the moldboard, farther out, has no choice but to flex toward the truck. push it past this point and you end up with the creases. 

on another point, the owner of Ortiz welding & manufacturing, in Hawthorne NY, (who i am chummy with) manufactures his own plows, besides doing all types of repairs to other makes. this past storm,(blizzard of 93), he had 3 different fisher plows outside his shop that looked like they were all in serious accidents. the moldboards were beyond creased, they were bent, besides other failures of rams, weld, quadrants, etc.. . they were totaled.
according to him , the bending of the moldboard is a common problem with fishers, when trying to stack snow (under certain conditions). from up close, they seem to have bent from the rams, out. 

i think this is similar to what's going on with the mvp's. i think they're great plows, but they need more refining.


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## Plowski (Feb 16, 2003)

I'm not surprised at all.

This is a great thread; since I own a Fisher 8.5 V, this is required reading. Thanks to all.


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Well Chucks theory is pretty strong also but let me throw a twist in there!You commercial boys buy the V's to scoop and contain snow in your big lots right?While the residential boys(which are what i deal with) buy them for the V to bust open snowed in drives etc. Anyways,the plows i'm dealing with like mentioned began there probs well within the first year and hardly if ever even saw the scoop position.
Not to be negative,i just want to get everything I see out there along with you guys so we can narrow this down,maybe we manufacture our own damn plows1


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## Mike Fronczak (Nov 28, 2001)

I have a 2002 8.5 Fisher V, has same problems (crease & cracked welds). Fisher's solution Weld & touch up paint. I personallt have driven this truck/plow since new, didn't abuse it. Dealer said all V get crease your talking about that he's seen.
My brother looked at it, was a welder (structural & fab)for five years before working for me. Pointed out many flaws to dealer with weld work, dealer answer "Fisher's are all still hand welded".
This is second Fisher we had problems with this year all were weld cracking. 
I don't think it's right to spend $4500 on a plow, only to have to have strucural parts fail, & every time you re-weld it weakens metal as I understand it. 
Going to start looking at different brands within next few weeks, to replace these two, sucks there goes $ 9000.


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## EIB (Oct 30, 2002)

I've had my MVP 8.5 for 4 years and no cracks or creases. I use it for comm. and res. I also stack as high as I can when plowing, which is about even with the roof of my truck. I'm sure my plow doesn't get worked as much as others. My route will take me five hours, on average. I love the plow. The only thing I want is a new u edge for it. That it going to be a summer task.


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## nben (Jan 22, 2003)

John,
The 8.5's angle fine. The 9.5's don't angle nearly as good. I don't think it is just the stops though. Seems to me that if it were just the stops than you would be able to angle around hard against the stop on one side and still have the blade in a semi-scoop position. I think the limiting factor is where the rams mount to the moldboard. The 9.5's rams are probably mounted further outward on the moldboard for better leverage which would limit the travel of the wing in both directions. I will try and get some measurements today to compare the two. 

Chuck,
I hear what you are saying, but if the creases were caused by forces exerted on the top of the moldboard, wouldn't they run diagonally in the other direction? Try it with a piece of cardboard and you will see what I mean. Plus Arcburn said that the plows he's seen haven't done a lot of stacking. HMMMMM!!?? The way that the back of the plow is boxed in, I don't think it would take much of a twist to make that buckle. Remember that piece of metal is spaced a couple of inches away from the moldboard. Any movement at the moldboard would be amplified that far back from the "pivot point" or fulcrum. 

It will be interesting to hear what Snowbowtie's professor has to say about the force vectors on the stop. Maybe you could discuss the entire topic with him? Print off this thread and let him have at it. Most professors enjoy a challenge!

It's too bad that we couldn't have a product engineer from Fisher or Western chime in here with their opinion. Maybe an ex-employee would be better so they wouldn't be offending the company they work for!! than maybe Arcburn could recruit him/her for the "new and improved" plow!


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## Bossplower (Feb 21, 2003)

I was thinking about buying a western V Maybe I'll stick with my Boss v
I've never had them crack or any of my friends Boss V's crack.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

*On that ANGLE issue...*

Iv'e seen a few photos of Western and Fisher V's in the Vee position and often wondered why they don't angle back further towards the bumper.? My BOSS V is only 2" wider in the V compared to the scoop position. It scoops and Vee's very tight. The V position is VERY important when breaking trail in 20+" of snow. Its what a V plow was MADE to be good at! If I had the Western/Fisher I wouldn't have punched through drifts and broke trail nearly as easily as I do with my BOSS.

Now if Boss only made a plow that tripped when you hit a slightly raised manhole cover at 15 mph!!!


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

Tom, maybe its time you try a urethane edge.With the $$ back guarantee ,you cant go wrong. I cant say i know how it feels to trip the boss,because ive had a U edge on since day one,and it has never tripped as a result of hitting a manhole,or storm drain/grate yet.I have tripped it hitting frozen piles(opps),and stacking.The most I feel is a slight bump as the plow rides over it. I get mine from Dino and I love them. My original steel edges are sitting at the shop,brand new yet. I understand what you mean with the Boss V mode,it comes back far.If the western came back as far the wings would drag on the ground all the time going down the road,this is more of a problem with the Western V than the Boss also.Just something i noticed after having both plows. I think it has to do with the A frame design.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

I want a U edge, but only when they start making them BLACK or RED!!! 

No offense to any of you out there, but a RED plow with a YELLOW edge looks like freakin' Ronald McDonald!!!

I know I've researched it before, but about how much including shipping for a BOSS 8.2 V ?

I'm also worried about wear. I've had this particular edge on since 1997 and I figure I have another 2 seasons left in it now. Thats the benefits of a BOSS, they have 1/2" thick hardened edges.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Arc Burn said:


> Well Chucks theory is pretty strong also but let me throw a twist in there!You commercial boys buy the V's to scoop and contain snow in your big lots right?While the residential boys(which are what i deal with) buy them for the V to bust open snowed in drives etc. Anyways,the plows i'm dealing with like mentioned began there probs well within the first year and hardly if ever even saw the scoop position.
> Not to be negative,i just want to get everything I see out there along with you guys so we can narrow this down,maybe we manufacture our own damn plows1


Actually, this reinforces what I am saying. Think about it. When breaking through a compacted snow bank pushed up by a road plow, in the V position, where is the most force exerted? On the unsupported outside edges of the wings (because the point of the V cuts though easily). By design, plows are supposed to carry the snow "up" the face of the moldboard. Additionally, with the snow being as deep as it is, there is a lot of force exerted the second the wing makes contact with the road plow windrow. Any snow moved from the center of the V towards the outside edges of the wing, compounds the force exerted on the unsupported outside upper wing edges. The same as it does when stacking, wihen the blade hits the lift stops. The snow still wants to lift the blade higher, as it is intended to do, but the blade is against the stops, so it can't. I would guess that the curve of the moldboard face, wants to "flatten" out, due to the torque applied.
*
I also want to point out that I am not bashing Western on this thread, or telling anyone NOT to buy a Western plow. On the contrary, I am just trying to figure out what is causing the problems, and a way to prevent them from happening again, or from more damage occuring.*

I think the problem with the Boss plows tearing at the center hinge might be due to the same forces exerted on the ends of the wings. Some of you might be new here, and some of you might remember the pics posted here of the torn steel where it is welded to the hinge. Once it was pointed out, others looked at their Boss plows and found that theirs were begining to tear as well.

I think this is a pyhsics problem with all V plows. Some manufacturers have designed their plows to provide support to all areas of the blade during all types of use (or so it appears). It is a delicate balance of weight vs. strength, which is not easy to work with.

A perfect example is cars. ALL cars used to have a full chassis, until the uni-body design came out. Why? Because uni-body is stronger for that application, using less weight. Manufacturers learned that thick steel was not always stronger than formed, thinner steel, when engineered properly.

~Chuck


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## Bossplower (Feb 21, 2003)

I just bought 3U edges from Dino for my Boss plows I hope they scrape OK I hope I won't have to worry about the cracking weld 
problem . I hope they scrape everything clean that"s my main concern.


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

Tom, the yellow doesnt bother me,its just a plow,Im not making a fashion statement,as long as its all relatively clean,and in good working order. Another thing I have actually gotten business by having the U edge,it is different,no one around here has seen them,strangers,plow guys and business owners,like the dunkin donuts,car washes,diners,and gas stations we frequent ask me what it is,why i have it,what are the advantages to it,etc.. Once you explain the benefits of them,I usually give them a card,and ask that they consider me next time they are taking bids for snow plowing. They will remember me as the guy with the different plows/edges.People here know my trucks by seeing the yellow cutting edges, I honestly think its helped me there too.A simple question of what is that can turn into anther profitable account. I do know the U edges are on sale now.


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## Bossplower (Feb 21, 2003)

I wouldn't bash Western plows they have been around along time and I'm sure they will take care of any problems they are having. But untill they do I'll stick with the Boss. I love this board and I think the people are great to inform everyone about there problems. When my Boss cracks I'll let you know. I'll let ya'll know how the U-edges work also. 
PS I have heard the 10' Boss has cracked also.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Ok, for those of you that might have forgotten, here are three threads that talk about Boss plows tearing at the center hinge, and just how common it is (or was). They are old threads, so it might not be a problem anymore.

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1646&highlight=boss+and+crack+and+hinge

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1524&highlight=boss+and+crack+and+hinge

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3221&highlight=boss+and+crack+and+hinge

~Chuck


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## BASIC (Dec 28, 2002)

Hi guys,with the cracking problems that seem to be occurring with some V-plows,would you still buy/recommend a V-plow?I'm interested in a Western 8.5' MVP or an 8' Pro,for next year,thanks again for the help,BASIC.


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## nben (Jan 22, 2003)

GOOD POINT CHUCK!

I too am not bashing Fisher or Western vee plows. If I were replace my pick-up tomorrow, I would put another vee on it in a second. We are thinking about trying a Blizzard next year, but that truck stays almost entirely in parking lots. I wouldn't trade the versatility and reliability that I have had with our vees for the world. Aside from the creases, we have had zero problems with the plows. They haven't let us down at all!

What we are having here is some good old fashioned brain storming between plowing professionals that are willing to share their first-hand experience with others to better reliability and productivity for everyone. Hopefully Western, Fisher, and other companies are reading this thread and others for some free, real world product evaluation!


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2003)

Basic,

I would buy another 8.5 Western MVP in a heart beat!! My plow is 3 yrs old and has been used pretty hard, especially this year with lots of snow and approx. 250 hrs of plowing. I have no cracking or creasing and the only problem I've had was a blown ram seal this year.

I think some of the weld cracking has to do with WHO welded it and how they felt that day!! It's just like cars or trucks. With the same make and model, you can either get a good one or a bad one. It has more to do with who and when it was built, rather than the make and model. You know they say, don't buy a vehicle built on Mon. or Fri. 

Greg


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

I gotcha Chuck!And of course we are not bashing brands,just trying to solve the puzzle,as for plowing professionals,i believe we are gonna be freekin engineers by the time we are done


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

I talked to my prof briefly today, he said that the force that would be required to break the inner weld would have to come from the cylinders pushing into scoop. Because the two surfaces seem to be separted from each other he thought that the cylinders were pushing forward, while the center pin area must be moving backwards. We're not sure exactly whats going on, he kept a few of the pictures, he wanted to look at them, i'll let you know what else he came up with tomorrow. 

To be honest that 10 min conversation did not reveal anything too profound, but hopefully he'll come up with something by tomorrow  

-John


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## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

I still believe that the problem, is in a product line designed around profits and not quality. Granted if I had to buy another plow under 10' It would probably be a Fisher. I just think the 9.5 has the ablity to be a better plow with some more metal. The thing about the 9.5 is it isn't much more than a 8.5' with 3" more on each wing.

Geoff


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

OK,how bout this one?I just looked at a Fisher 9.5 and towards the bottom right above the mount for the shoes (aka"boat anchors")the moldboard is dented backwards in the same spot on both wings.May have already been mentioned or may have nothing to do with what were discussing but give that a check anyways just to see if we are all on the same page?


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## nben (Jan 22, 2003)

Arcburn,
Those dents are most likely from the shoes. All fisher plows do that . When the trip edge trips, the top of the shoe bashes the backside of the moldboard. Poor design.


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

nben,nope,these dents are bacwards towards the truck and it's never seen the shoes!I know what your talking about though,we did it on our new MM2 this year!
Let me clarify the dents(i've gotta learn to use that damn digital camera!)If it were the shoes,the dent would be poking towards the front of the plow,these dents are the opposite,did i thourghly confuse everybody know ,Now I don't even know how to explain the friggin thing


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## nben (Jan 22, 2003)

Oh, I understand now. I haven't seen that before. Can't imagine what would have caused that.


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## nben (Jan 22, 2003)

*Hey Chuck......*

Chuck, 
I was wondering if you ever got another response back from Western. Had to look 4 pages back for this thread............it was buried deep.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Nope, no reply yet Nate. Someone mentioned A frame angle earlier. The A frame is perfectly level with the ground when the plow is down.

I got a little tid bit from the mechanic who installed the plow. He said (for whatever reason) that the front end of the F-450 could not handle the weight of the plow. Strange, considering that the front GAWR is 6000#. Western actually paid for, and for the installation of add a leafs! This was one of the first Western 9.5 V's shipped (according to the mechanic) and it took a little finesse, but in the end, Western paid for the add a leaf install. What might complicate things, is the plow was installed by a "sub dealer" of one of the authorized dealers.  From now on we will be going to an authorized dealer.

Since we need a few edges, the mechanic went to pick some up. The dealer actually had to order the edges for the V, they were not in stock. That surprised me, considering he is one of the largest best stocked Western dealers in the State. He said no one has come in for the 9.5' edges, or he would be stocking them. I can assure you he did not order only one set, If I know him, he ordered a half dozen sets.

I still have the truck here, so I may take it to the dealer and get his opinion, because HIS opinion I value (He is not the one that installed the plow, and I KNOW he knows these plows inside and out. This is his 30th year as a Western Dealer. If the folks at Western are reading this, then they know who I am taking the plow to already.).

~Chuck


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Ah yes Chuck,the F-450 front end,i was welding one of the infamous 9.5's last week from a F-450 only to find 2 broken front springs!

Now for another 9.5 crack i got to see(again i apologize for no pics,the camera sits in front of me and might as well be a potatoe)on the head gear itself,down low behind the A-frame,there is a horizontal angle iron between the 2 recieving brackets for the vehicle mounts,(i hope thats clear enough)anyways driver side angle was completely broke and pass side was cracked 3/4 of the way,yet another new one to me!


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

I got some pics of my 9'2" Boss,both in the center pin area,and the ram mounts on the blade. I have 2 small cracks starting on the angle ram mounts on the blade itself,very small,but they will need to be fixed before next season. Ill post pics of them after i get them back. There is nothing at all in the center pin area,I went over the entire plow with a fine tooth comb,and these 2 tiny cracks and a slight bend in a rib are all i can find. These cracks are where the ram mounts are welded to the moldboard,the weld itself looks to be splitting.So i will MIG that area in the summer when i go over it and repaint it when done. I may make up a small plate for that area too.


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## jbutch83 (Sep 30, 2002)

Chuck,

Pretty much had the same problem, I purchased my plow from a sub-dealer, and it took approximately 2 months to finally get everything fixed from Western. First time, they shipped me the wrong quadrant, then had to wait another two weeks to get the correct one. I will make sure from now on I purchase from a dealer, not a sub.

John


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## Jerre Heyer (Mar 19, 2002)

Arc Burn, 

Did a Western 9.6V on a Cheve 3500. Had the same problem. 

The headgear kept getting lower and lower till it Busted the angle off on both sides. 
Hope you noticed they used a 1/4" 2X2 angle to hold all that weight. ( Got to love the engineers ) Anyway I used a pc of 3/8" to replace it an added gussets to the sides to help with the twisting load.

This is the same plow that has the creases like chucks and I had to reweld the center bushings on it too. Had cracked out the bushings on the top 2 and busted the bottom one off also.

Had the spring pockets bent up and the springs had pushed out the face of the blade.


In light of the 450 spring problem there have been other fun and exciting things here. Some of the western unimount frames have pulled out ( torn out ) of the 2500/3500HD cheve frames. 

They weren't installed by a dealer or sub they were home installs. The washers provided and the attachments pulled through the frame. Just a note.

Jerre

P.S. Chuck had as much fun as you have in trying to get answers from western when I was a Full Sub dealer. I still sell there plows but I Had to change brands due to quality and product support as well as finding a better product IMO all the way around


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Jerre,I was tempted to replace the angle as it was completely busted on one side and hanging on the other but the guy was in a hurry(imagine that) so i v'd it out welded the cracks,plated the back and put gussets on the inside.

After seeing everything i have,i would really be scared about next season with some of these plows if i owned them,there is just no way they are gonna last,you can only weld and gusset so much and as you know the stronger you make one area,the weaker you make another,i think i'm about ready to weld the damn things straight and weld supports across the entire back side,see if they can break that:realmad:


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## Jerre Heyer (Mar 19, 2002)

Arc Burn, We definatly know the answer to that last question. 

Build it and they will find a way to break it.

Summer provides a prep for winter for the smart guy's. The rest are in the fall Hurry It's snowing mode.

Jerre


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## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

All I can say is the either the 9.5' v plows are underdesigned or the operators are beating the crap out of them. My 8.5 has plowed alot of snow, especailly this season, it is being pushed by a truck that weighs close to 15K and I have yet to bend anything. Maybe the extra 6" on each side is causing extra side loads and leading to failure.
Dino


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## paul soccodato (Nov 9, 2002)

that 6" might be just enough to give the snow enough leverage to do it.


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## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

Like I said before weight specs don't lie. All the 9.5' is an 8.5' with an extra 6" on each wing and a different A-frame. They are allowing the 9.5' on just about anything it looks like now. I read the fisher guide for Ford pick ups, and I may be reading it wrong, but it looks like a 9.5' can be mounted on a 2003 F 250 SD with 500lbs of ballest.

Geoff


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## CT18fireman (Nov 30, 2000)

I think that the points where the angle cylinders meet the wings should be farther out from the center line of the plow. Looks to me like the damage to the plow may be caused when the wing pivots on the ram and pulls forward from the center hinged. If the ram was farther out on the wing this leverage might not occur.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Western replied. They instructed me to go to an authorized distributor, and that it is probably a problem that will be covered by the warranty. It was not a form letter, or automated reply.

I'll post after going to the distributor.

~Chuck


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

Good deal Chuck, I hope they take care of you.


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## wxmn6 (May 23, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Chuck Smith _
> * Not to go off topic, but did anyone notice Boss went to X bracing across the back of the moldboards on their trip edge plows? *





> _Originally posted by SnowGodFather _
> *Yes and so did Fisher on their "X-Blade", must be a new trend. *


So suppose you have a Fisher X-Blade straight plow and if you plow and something cause the blade to want to twist, the X bracing would reduce the twisting of the plow blade? If that is what it is designed for, then would that mean the energy would be transferred to somewhere else? Like A frame or the truck?


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Not that I am an engineer, but I think the X bracing would absorb the torque better than the rib design of most plows.

If you look at large steel structures, most have X bracing whenever there is a load to hold up. I am not talking about roof trusses, but rather girder construction in general. Though even roof and floor construction involves X bracing. The X bracing helps distribute the force.

To settle the Western plow problem, before I could take it to the dealer, the plow was repaired in house.  It is off the truck, fixed, and stored now. I didn't see how they fixed it yet, but I am anxious to see what they did. I have a feeling they just fixed the cracked welds, and did't add any additional bracing. On the other hand, now that it is off the truck, I can do a much better inspection. 

~Chuck


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Chuck,one of the 9.5's i get to see on a regular basis was originaly fixed by a dealer on a few occassions,all welds,no braces or supports.They claim this isn't that big of a problem,despite the graveyard of V's waiting to be fixed in there yard


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## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

OK,I thought this would get more attention here but on a different thread Jerre mentioned the MM2's which i have yet to see in the V form(i do own a straight MM2,much better built)are the blades and A frames also different from the MM1 vs the new MM2?Did Fisher address any of these issues on the MM2 V?Like i said,ihaven't seen a MM2 V so i never gave it a thought.


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## Santo (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by snow_man_48045 _
> *Must be nice to have a V-plow?? Having to pay almost 5 grand and turn around and weld, and modify it. This is sad, and an unexceptable product constuction. That plow doesn't look that old in the pics. I was thinking about purchasing a v- plow, but now probly not. keep the straight blades, and keep using the loader with the snow pusher. I don't know about you guys, but I can't aford a 4-5 grand for a pile of scrape steal that I have to weld on every year or so.
> How is the Boss V holding up???  *


Snow man ,you took the words right outta my mouth.The twp. here had 3 bosses go thru 3 brand new 350 grills and 2 just completely fell apart at the welds 2 yrs. in service. Now ,I'm sure some boss freak is going to get on my case about this and say it's impossible or it's driver negligence,or the installer, but you won't see one on the front of any of mine. That 5 grand can work somewhere else.I wonder if western is reading.


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## Santo (Sep 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chuck Smith _
> *Here is a closer view of the crease in the left wing.
> 
> ~Chuck *


Excellent pix


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## Santo (Sep 3, 2003)

Questions for Western: How much of the cost of the plow goes towards research? 2) Who is testing these plows? 3) Why cant I demo one of these plows before purchasing one?


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## FORDNUT (Oct 13, 2002)

*V plow*

Chuck,
A prominent western dealer in bergen county is now a
Boss dealer. My suggestion to anyone interested in a vee
plow and especially a Boss, is the poly-v. It is stronger due to the
steel skeleton. The majority of the boss vees that I sell are
polys. My customers love them, less cracking and stress failures
due to strong skeleton. Take a look, they are well made.
Back to the western dealer, he sees the difference in the vee plow. His customers will too. Fordnut


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

TTT


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## Bossplower (Feb 21, 2003)

I got a new Dodge truck and a new Poly Boss V with the x Bracing on the back today. Strong plow, they don't crack as bad as a western .Boss is always making improvements and the new ones look great. 9'2" Boss

I still have my first Boss V from 15yrs. ago.
Steve


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Just reading over this thread and a huge amount of information I wish I had in Mid September when I had the brand new 8.5 MVP ultra mount on my brand new F-450SD 4x4 6.0 PSD 141" wheel based (snow plow prep and heavy duty Timbrens front and rear)with a 9 foot heavy duty Airflo dump bed with undertailgate salt spreader central hydro for salt spreader only. 

So yes I do plan on running loaded with salt around 3 ton in the dump while working the plow will mostly likely be running about 16,000lbs - 18,000lbs I will be going on the scale with a load tommorow just to get an eyeball and what the laegal load might/should look like. After several conversations with the dealer, not a sub dealer, he stated alot of guys running the 8.5 V on the F-450's and the 9.5 on the F-550's. I now wonder is that is what he is tell most guys just to avoid the 9.5 problems?

From what I am reading, I am kinda glad to hear that the 8.5 is not have the cracking and creasing issues, but I wonder if it is the right size for my truck. In the V position I measure, not what the book says, 94" than measure the rear dual at 94". So I guess it just covers the rear wheel but the is only in the V. Did not measure the scoop, but check at max angle left and right and seems to cover.

Spent over $50,000.00 and still not sure I have the best/right set up. I guess there really is no right set up just what works best for each of out different application. I do about 30 small to med. size parking lots and gas station with two truck. I heard many good things about the V plow in parking lots so I went to one. The other truck is a P/U with a 8' Pro and has worked great for the past two years getting me more business warranting the purchase of the second truck. 

So my question... anybody running same set up with good results???(F-450 with 8.5 V) Should I have gone with the 9.5 V?? I agree and would like to have seen a 9' V. And now after seeing the 9' Pro Plus, I am really confuess on what I should be running.

Your help would be great.


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## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

WHile I dont have a 450, I have a k-3500 with the 8.5 v plow and a full spreader in the rear. I weigh in at 16K when fully loaded. The plow is ine for the truck, at times I wish it was bigger, but run what youve brung. That plow has withstood 5 seasons of plowing, and no major issues to date. If it was me tho, I would hav looked into a blizzard 810 o 8611. But since you have the 8.5 v plow you will have very good results.
Dino


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## Cecilia (Aug 10, 2004)

Chuck,

I work for the American Welding Society, and we are hosting a Conference on Weld Cracking. May I have your permission to use some of your picture examples of cracked welds for reproduction in our brochure and/or advertising??

Please respond as soon as you can.

Cecilia
Senior Marketing Coordinator
American Welding Society
[email protected]


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Cecilia, I don't think Chuck visits this site anymore. If you can get the site administrator's OK, I'd be glad to intoduce you to him.


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## Cecilia (Aug 10, 2004)

If that's what I need to do, then OK. If you know anyone else with neat weld-cracking pics, I'd appreciate it!


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## Big Nate's Plowing (Nov 26, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Mick _
> *Cecilia, I don't think Chuck visits this site anymore. *


I doubt it pumpkin:


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Nate, I was being facetious for some of our members who have been around for awhile .


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## sonjaab (Jul 29, 2001)

to the top for Iowa.


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## 04superduty (Jan 9, 2004)

does westerns angle cylinders allow the wings to fold back if there is too much pressure from hitting something or pushing to much weight?


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