# Is this a good rate?



## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

Ok, before I start, I do know that with the price I am going to put up, my partner and I can make $$ unless it snows like it rained when Noah built the Ark. I know my costs, the average snowfall etc., so the bottom line is, I should be able to make a $$.

With that being said, here is the deal:
I have the option of taking a contract from a local store to plow a 6.5 acre lot for around $13,500 for the year. 2" trigger, with a rule that says no more than 2" accumulation at any time. I get paid extra if I have to stack or haul, spread salt or do areas not listed on the contract. Does this seem like a normal, decent rate for this size lot?

I do understand that every area is different. The average snowfall in my area is like 25 or 26" total. I guess I am asking that if I am low balling by taking this account, or should I be getting more?. The lot has very few islands and/or obstacles and lots of places to push the snow without taking it 50 miles.

We will not be using employees to run the trucks, nor do I have to do any hand shoveling or blowing. Since I don't have any experience with large lots or seasonal plowing rates, I was just wondering...............


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

It's not so much as to how snow you get,but how times you go out in a season.


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

grandview;1343054 said:


> It's not so much as to how snow you get,but how times you go out in a season.


Agreed. With 2 trucks, anything under 6" will take me a few hours to clear. Its when we get storms with 18 to 24 inches! I figure I will have at least 20hrs on site to get it cleared. I am just gonna park my motor home in the lot and sleep there, Lol:redbounce


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## coyote (Jan 6, 2011)

Sounds like a good gig to me.


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## 7_below (Dec 9, 2009)

Don't know if I could do it for that but it Sounds allright for as much info you mentioned. Just gotta figure out how many times youll have to plow there and a price per visit. If you know your costs then that shouldnt be a problem to find a total price that works for you. I couldn't imagine only averaging 20"-26" a year. We get that in our first storm of the season. Lol. But like you said, every area is different. In the Cuse we average 125" a year. Last year we had 179"!!! Good luck and I hope you have the proper equipment for that lot.


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

7_below;1343266 said:


> Good luck and I hope you have the proper equipment for that lot.


Thanks, I'm gonna need it!. As far as equipment is concerned, we will have 2 trucks dedicated to that lot only. One has a 7.6ft blade and the other is a 9ft blade with wings, both straight blades. We also have 2 other trucks (both 8fters) that can be there within 3 hrs of the snow falling. These trucks could also be pulled off their routes to come and help out for like 1 hr if it got really bad and we needed to play catch-up. I also have another sub on backup that has a very small route of his own (less than an hour to complete).

If everything explodes, I have access to a wheel loader and 2 medium size John Deere farm tractors with loaders on them. None of them have cabs, so they would be a last resort kind of thing or if we needed to stack or haul at some point.

I think that is more than enough, but then again, my brain isn't the best these days, Lol


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

grandview;1343054 said:


> It's not so much as to how snow you get,but how times you go out in a season.


Interesting sentence. 



superdog1;1343281 said:


> Thanks, I'm gonna need it!. As far as equipment is concerned, we will have 2 trucks dedicated to that lot only. One has a 7.6ft blade and the other is a 9ft blade with wings, both straight blades. We also have 2 other trucks (both 8fters) that can be there within 3 hrs of the snow falling. These trucks could also be pulled off their routes to come and help out for like 1 hr if it got really bad and we needed to play catch-up. I also have another sub on backup that has a very small route of his own (less than an hour to complete).
> 
> If everything explodes, I have access to a wheel loader and 2 medium size John Deere farm tractors with loaders on them. None of them have cabs, so they would be a last resort kind of thing or if we needed to stack or haul at some point.
> 
> I think that is more than enough, but then again, my brain isn't the best these days, Lol


I think your backup plan is sketchy at best. The money seems good if you really get the amount of snow you say you do. If you happen to get a lot of snow this season...you will be a loser.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

grandview;1343054 said:


> It's not so much as to how snow you get,but how times you go out in a season.





WIPensFan;1343356 said:


> Interesting sentence.
> 
> .


I have to stop typing in the dark!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

grandview;1343362 said:


> I have to stop typing in the dark!


I thought it was the alcohol talking.


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

WIPensFan;1343364 said:


> I thought it was the alcohol talking.


Thats what I thought too!. I knew what he meant though.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

WIPensFan;1343364 said:


> I thought it was the alcohol talking.





superdog1;1343476 said:


> Thats what I thought too!. I knew what he meant though.


Guess we all think alike or where all drunks!


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## TPC Services (Dec 15, 2005)

Sounds like you have it figured pretty well at a 2" trigger and having it set as extras for relocating, salting/sanding and no sdwks. Don't know how that can be low but some on here may get $100 an hour or something. Don't know how your back up plan sounds sketchy but whatever. I guess it depends on how reliable it will you before you to get your hands on those pieces of equipment? 6 acres with no islands and not having to haul it to ten buck to should take around 7 to 8 hrs. That’s on average 10 push at a 2" trigger at $1000 a push. Do you have a cap on total amount? is not I would set that. You would have gotten screwed if you where having to do it at every 1"


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

"We also have 2 other trucks (both 8fters) that can be there within 3 hrs of the snow falling. These trucks could also be pulled off their routes to come and help out for like 1 hr if it got really bad and we needed to play catch-up. I also have another sub on backup that has a very small route of his own (less than an hour to complete).

If everything explodes, I have access to a wheel loader and 2 medium size John Deere farm tractors with loaders on them. None of them have cabs, so they would be a last resort kind of thing or if we needed to stack or haul at some point."

The three hr deal is what I question the most. 6.5 Acres is a big lot, and backups getting there within 3 hrs is no good really. If everything explodes it will be too late to rally a loader and tractors. Those things need to be on site already.

SKETCHY.


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## TPC Services (Dec 15, 2005)

WIPensFan;1344131 said:


> "We also have 2 other trucks (both 8fters) that can be there within 3 hrs of the snow falling. These trucks could also be pulled off their routes to come and help out for like 1 hr if it got really bad and we needed to play catch-up. I also have another sub on backup that has a very small route of his own (less than an hour to complete).
> 
> If everything explodes, I have access to a wheel loader and 2 medium size John Deere farm tractors with loaders on them. None of them have cabs, so they would be a last resort kind of thing or if we needed to stack or haul at some point."
> 
> ...


OH MY BAD!!!!! wow calm down guy!!! he's talking about stacking snow. and theres a few place we have that we can stack snow after we push the lot which would mean we can bring in a loader and stack in the corner of the lot out of everyones way during the day. He may be able to or is talking about the same thing YIKES!!!! Hey, if your getting more then $1000 for six hours of work with no sdwks & salting more power to you guy, wasn't bashing anyone!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

:laughing:I wasn't really that worked up. Just explaining what I meant because you addressed it in your previous post. No biggie, I should have been more specific on my first post.

HAVE A NICE DAY.


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## TPC Services (Dec 15, 2005)

WIPensFan;1344228 said:


> :laughing:I wasn't really that worked up. Just explaining what I meant because you addressed it in your previous post. No biggie, I should have been more specific on my first post.
> 
> HAVE A NICE DAY.


its a Friday an its miller time!! have a good weekend. an Go HAWKEYES!!!


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## ladder6 (Feb 3, 2010)

Price is fair as long as your "estimated" snow amounts are right. If you get a handfull of "big events," you are setting yourself up for a loss. That is a big area to plow, in a big storm, with 2 trucks. Be prepared to get other equipment there in a hurry!


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

Well, I just found out that I have to supply the salt, so I re-bid it at $15,500. I hate trying to figure out what the weather is going to do? This is worse than going to Los Vegas! I am praying for a mild winter!, Lol


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## ConnerM (Aug 28, 2011)

With your original bid i calculated
at $70 an hour divide by 13,500 = 192.85 hours
split between two trucks thats about 100 hours a season at this place with each truck.
70 seems a little high but 65 is a given but if you have to salt the place then 70 is low for sure usually salting adds at least an extra 10-20 an hour to the total price. Idk your area but you should adjust your hours accordinly


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## TPC Services (Dec 15, 2005)

ConnerM, aren't you the same guy that started a thread asking if you would make money working for $50 bucks an hour an are now on here telling these guys that they are a little high. Im confused?? how if you have never plow as a business owner can you be giving this guys bid advice. Did I miss something on your thread you started where I am off on this??

Again Superdog1, Do you have a cap in place where if you get above normally snow fall your not screwed and also you are way low on salting if your supplying and applying it!! Your only charging $2000 more for salting. YIKES at the very least you will have 3500lbs of straight salt on it here we would be close to $300 if not more per event and like I mentioned on a earlier post if you only have 10 pushing events thats again at least $3000, I don't know what your paying for salt but salt here is $ 80 a ton. So if you where to pay the same thats $80x10 + $800 just in your salt cost so your are telling me your happy with $1200 left to pay for your wear and tear on your equipement/ labor and profit!!?? if you are more power to you. We would be more like $5000 to $6000 just to cover second salting events or if you have a couple freezing rain events on top of your 10 events we would have a cap on this also.


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## DodgeBlizzard (Nov 7, 2003)

I'm confused. Your original bid was $13,500 for plowing only. Now you have to puchase and apply salt and your total bid is now $15,500? $13,500 divided by $15,500 = 13% increase to salt. Where in central Pa are you located? We had a pile of plowable events last year.


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

DodgeBlizzard;1358546 said:


> I'm confused. Your original bid was $13,500 for plowing only. Now you have to puchase and apply salt and your total bid is now $15,500? $13,500 divided by $15,500 = 13% increase to salt. Where in central Pa are you located? We had a pile of plowable events last year.


I live in Lebanon. I have no employees and after I did the math, the extra $2000 should cover the salt I need for this location. Out of all of the other accounts we did last year, 2 of them added up are larger than this lot. We only used 4 pallets of salt to do both of them, so I added up the price of 4 pallets and then 3 extra just in case we get hit hard. That gives me a total of 17,150 pds of salt. I can buy that amount of salt for $1400. We have tailgate spreaders, so there is really no extra labor to apply the salt.

In the last few years, we have been averaging 18 events per year, so if you divide the amount we are being paid and subtract the salt, then divide that # by 18 events, it works out to $783.00 per push. Divide that again by 6 hours to do the lot on average and you get $130.00 per hour to do this job. Obviously you have to subtract fuel costs and other things like wear and tear on the trucks etc., but it still adds up to a decent # for our time.

We are making $$ with these #'s.


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## TPC Services (Dec 15, 2005)

superdog1;1358825 said:


> I live in Lebanon. I have no employees and after I did the math, the extra $2000 should cover the salt I need for this location. Out of all of the other accounts we did last year, 2 of them added up are larger than this lot. We only used 4 pallets of salt to do both of them, so I added up the price of 4 pallets and then 3 extra just in case we get hit hard. That gives me a total of 17,150 pds of salt. I can buy that amount of salt for $1400. We have tailgate spreaders, so there is really no extra labor to apply the salt.
> 
> In the last few years, we have been averaging 18 events per year, so if you divide the amount we are being paid and subtract the salt, then divide that # by 18 events, it works out to $783.00 per push. Divide that again by 6 hours to do the lot on average and you get $130.00 per hour to do this job. Obviously you have to subtract fuel costs and other things like wear and tear on the trucks etc., but it still adds up to a decent # for our time.
> 
> We are making $$ with these #'s.


 I hope you have a great slip an fall insurance. No extra cost to apply salt ???? you have the piece of equipment that spreads the SALT!!! and the labor to keep refilling it !!!! sorry I was on your page until you said you have 18 plowable events not counting frezzing rain or sleet events because I saw nothing in there about that. and that you are fine only making $600-800 before the deduction of labor and wear and tear of that equipment on salting. so to you happy lowballing!!!! that lot is way low on priced. have fun not paying for your equipment or want to upgrade it

All I have is this to those prices


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

TPC Services;1360016 said:


> I hope you have a great slip an fall insurance.


It is in my GL policy



TPC Services;1360016 said:


> No extra cost to apply salt ???? you have the piece of equipment that spreads the SALT!!!


Yep, and the last pass I make with each push, I will hit the bottun and turn the spreader on



TPC Services;1360016 said:


> and the labor to keep refilling it !!!!


It takes me 5 mins. to cut open the bags and dump them.



TPC Services;1360016 said:


> sorry I was on your page until you said you have 18 plowable events not counting frezzing rain or sleet events because I saw nothing in there about that.


We are only responsible to salt during overnight events. Once the store opens for business, it is their responsibility to keep the lot and walks ice free. We then take over after normal business hours.



TPC Services;1360016 said:


> and that you are fine only making $600-800 before the deduction of labor and wear and tear of that equipment on salting. so to you happy lowballing!!!!


I am happy with the amount of $$ I am making. This is a LOT like going to Vegas. If I have a mild winter, I laugh all the way to the bank. If it is a bad one, well then I guess I eat my last sentence? 


TPC Services;1360016 said:


> that lot is way low on priced. have fun not paying for your equipment or want to upgrade it
> 
> All I have is this to those prices


My equipment is paid for? it does the job, so why do I need to upgrade?. I am sorry if you think I am low balling? I know what I can and can not work for and be ahead. Even with a bigger than normal amount of snowfall this year, I still end up with a few $$ in the bank and I have stayed busy. It is more than some of my competitors are doing. Most of them are selling their stuff?


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## ConnerM (Aug 28, 2011)

Yep that threads mine. I was just seeing if it is still worth doing the work at 50 around here 60 is the normal rate and usually a little more if your good and have a good reputation and for subs who plow and salt it usually add another 10 bucks an hour at least im just not interested in salting. With the other thread i was hoping to get other peoples Numbers and what they figured they made working at 50 an hour.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

I wish I could find subs to salt for an extra ten bucks an hour. If you can show me how that pencils out with a profit for the sub you need a job as a creative accountant.


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

Ok then, I guess we can all agree that you guys are just smarter than I am, OR, that you need more $$ than what I am getting to survive. I am happy with it, I am going to make $$ with it and I am going to put food on my table at the price I bid it at. It will keep me working until Spring, when I can go back to my real bread and butter.


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## mpgall26 (Aug 19, 2011)

Now it's a money maker, cash in on the de-ice. 6+ acres is big and the price should be to. Don't forget what TCP was saying your gonna dump an ass load of product there regardless of inches of snow. I'll trust your right, but that snowfall sounds low.


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## mpgall26 (Aug 19, 2011)

"BAGS" of product ??
NOAA snowfall totals for PA.
http://www.erh.noaa.gov/ctp/features/snowmaps/index.php?tab=norms


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## mpgall26 (Aug 19, 2011)

I think everyone just wants to see you do well and not lose your shirt. Be careful, thats all. That is a very cheap bid regardless of where it is.
Unless it's "Vegas"


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## jklawn&Plow (Jan 8, 2011)

You should always figure some amount in the price for depreciation of your equipment. This covers repairs and replacement down the road (even if its 10 years out). 5 Minutes for a palet of salt. Don't forget the gas to get it, the depreciation of the truck to get, your time to get it, if your doing it in 5 minutes I'd charge a high $$$/hr wage for "heavy exertion work" that way if you bust ass on every job you get compensated fairly. Could be you have all this covered just didn't read it.


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## TPC Services (Dec 15, 2005)

No not smarter then you bud just trying to make sure your see the bigger picture and have many years doing this. Also I’m just not seeing how you can be making money with your salting, just trying to figure out your reasoning on this and making sure you understand the risk in it. Your making money when you turn around and turn the sander on blows my mine. So your salting the same time your plowing ?? what about trail off from the snow your pushing . Also most sanders spread 15'-30', a plow clears a little less then what that size os plow is when angled!! Umm how many times are you having to reload your spreader speedy 5 mins adds up… on average the biggest tailgate spread will hold around 800LBS that’s at least 16 bags, your that fast on opening bags ?? you must have a lot of Caffeine in you (LOL) JK

You better make sure your Insurance agent know that the client will maintain the property during regular business yours . normally in a slip in fall insurance policy your all in or not! Make sure you lave a lock tight contract stating that you are not reasonable for normal business hours salting or de icing What if they can’t keep up or something breaks and they call you do you have extra figured in for that? Or in your contract that it will be a extra cost?

Season is a lot like going to Vegas or Wall Street. But if you put in the proper measures to minimize your loss’s your going to be better off hints CAPS on trips or snow fall amounts.
It doenst matter if its paid for or not you still need to put money away for maintenance!! And your telling me your doing to plow for 20 years with the same truck and plow or sanders?? 

Most of your so call Competitors are closing up because one of three things!
1) They are getting low ball by people that do not understand the end and outs of this industry most are in it to subsides their pockets books.
2)	They may have over priced themselves right out of the market.
3)	They are providing a poor quality service to their clients.

Sorry about the mean post but we are trying to get through to you that you are low on this bid. We may not change your mind but we are at least trying to make sure you are thinking of every aspect there is to think about in this Industry!!


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

TPC Services;1361277 said:


> Sorry about the mean post but we are trying to get through to you that you are low on this bid. We may not change your mind but we are at least trying to make sure you are thinking of every aspect there is to think about in this Industry!!


It is OK. I am fairly new to this game. I just took what we did last year based on square footage and the amount of salt we used and compared it to this location and did the math. I don't want to lowball, but I also want to eat. I guess I really don't see salting as a big deal. IMHO, salting is the least labor intensive thing we do?. It only takes a few minutes to load the hopper and drive up and down the isles?


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## ConnerM (Aug 28, 2011)

Italiano67;1360448 said:


> I wish I could find subs to salt for an extra ten bucks an hour. If you can show me how that pencils out with a profit for the sub you need a job as a creative accountant.


Im sayin at least an extra 10 bucks an hour if u just do side walks


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

*Aftermath*

I thought I would re-open this thread to let everyone know how I made out? I took the job. I only had 1 plow-able event. Yep, that's right, only 1 event that came in at 7"!!!!!!! I had 5 ice events that were very mild and I ended up using 3.2 tons of salt and about 10 bags of calcium chloride ( we had a few entrances to the building that required CC only). *I made out like a bandit!!*

Now, for the reality part of the equation:
If I would have had a normal season, or even 4 or 5 more plow-able events, it is quite possible that I would have lost my a$$!!!

What I learned was that if everything mentioned by the more experienced guys who answered my post(s) would have come true? had I got hit with a "real" Winter, I would have been in rough shape on April 1st. After doing some networking, internet research and chatting with some other local operators, I found out that I did in fact low ball this bid. There were quite a few other local guys getting paid twice as much as I was for lots that were 1/3 smaller than the one I did. I NEVER get lucky in most cases. For once in my life, I did. It stinks that I took this job, as I have now lowered the market rate for stuff in my area.

My actual costs were higher than I had calculated. Fuel prices went through the roof (much better now, thank God!) and guess what else happened?, the transfer case in my 94 Chevy dually dump went out early this Spring. While it didn't happen during a plowing event, it would have if I had gotten hit with another snow. I know this because the truck sat most of the Winter, and other than the one snow event, I used it for salting a few times and that was it. It went out the first time I put 5 yards of mulch on the back.

The best part about this is that after the new one was put in, it too went out after only 3 weeks of use. While it was under warranty the 2nd time, the truck was in the shop both times for almost a week and a half, as my truck uses a transfer case that only fits the year, make and model I have, so it had to be sent in for a re-work of the same unit and then sent back to me rebuilt. Had it snowed like crazy, I would have gone nuts trying to find a replacement truck/plow. While I thought we had a spare, it turns out that vehicle also had some hidden mechanical issues that only showed up in Spring with heavy use.

The time I had figured on the lot taking us to get done was also off. Turns out that when it starts snowing at 3AM and doesn't quit until noon, customers start pulling in at 7AM and parking wherever they want to (They honestly have NO common sense, nor do they give a damn that you are trying to work?). Besides working around their vehicles, it should also be noted that by driving on the lot, it turned some areas into concrete, making it EXTREMELY hard to remove. I never thought about this because our other locations never really have a lot of traffic, so it was never an issue?

With this being said, we were on site almost 3 hours longer than I had anticipated. This pushed back the arrival time to our other jobs, which in turn made some of my other customers less than happy. Another local operator (also a good friend) saved me by doing some of my route for me.

I am posting all of this so that any of you new guys reading this will learn from my mistakes. I am man enough to admit that I screwed up and hopefully you will learn from it? While I got lucky and hit some "easy" $$ _This time_, that will never happen again. Don't ever go into this thinking it is a quick and easy $ because it isn't! I now know that my pre-planning was off (way off) and so were some of my calculations. Even though I had been plowing for a few years before this, none of my existing accounts were anything like this job. My mind was clouded by $$ signs and it effected my judgement. You can bet that the price for this location is going up this year by at least another $6000 (if not more?). I would rather not get the job then get burned and work for free!


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## Puddle of Oil (Sep 20, 2008)

I know that feeling. It's the worst feeling in world. Thanks for your update!


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## ladder6 (Feb 3, 2010)

Glad it worked out for you. Lessons learned are always important to keep in the memory bank! Good luck with this uncoming season.


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

What a great guy to not only admit he was wrong but to help everyone elsy by saying why. Thanks and hello from Johnstown.


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## njrottyx2 (Aug 27, 2012)

whenever we do a snow bid we always add extra time for clean up after hours because of all those butt heads that love to park in the middle of where your trying to plow,
and to be honest salt is your biggest profit maker (this is my opinion no hazing please) we get on average $250-$275.00/ton for straight salt and $350-$400/ton for clients that want treated salt.


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