# Overtime for Snow shifts over 12 hours?



## CK82 (Sep 17, 2005)

Hello, Just curious what the consensus is for paying overtime after 12 hours?

I'm Wisconsin and don' believe there are any legal requirements for doing so. Thank you!


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## icudoucme (Dec 3, 2008)

In NY all that matters is the total at the end of the week.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

How long can u leagally drive for in NY


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

The guys I had plowing, got a flat rate of $30.00 an hour. My full time guy got a bonus, extra hours. They all got fed, coffee, what ever they needed. But no OT.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Flat hourly rate for my guys but if it's a long event then I make sure I take care of them.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> How long can u leagally drive for in NY


As long as you have too?!?


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I’ve done 3 days straight years ago when we got snow 
But he asked a legal question so I followed up with a legal question


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## icudoucme (Dec 3, 2008)

If in a non cdl truck as many as you can safely. After 40 hours time and a half.

Cdl truck 12 hours. If an emergency is declared federal guidelines are exempt.


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## CK82 (Sep 17, 2005)

I should have added, how many of you do pay overtime for over 12 hours in a shift?

I pay my workers well, however employee retention is important.......So are profit margins though.


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## CK82 (Sep 17, 2005)

Would you think larger companies, say 50 employees or greater pay OT after 12 hour shifts?

I'm sure it varies from company to company, I'm just hoping to hear whether it's common to do so or not.

Snow removal is just such a unique industry, how we sit for weeks, then work for days on end.

Thanks!


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

CK82 said:


> Would you think larger companies, say 50 employees or greater pay OT after 12 hour shifts?
> 
> I'm sure it varies from company to company, I'm just hoping to hear whether it's common to do so or not.
> 
> ...


No 
Us larger companies don't magically pay ot for no reason

In Alaska you have to pay ot for 8 hours in one day 
But if you start 8 pm on Tuesday and end 8 am on Wednesday 
You may have worked 12 hours but it was 4 hours on Tuesday and 8 hours on Wednesday


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

After 40 hrs you pay OT, Some dishonest guys don't even do that they bank there hours for a rainy day. Union or DB anything after 8 hrs per day is OT.

DB you have to have certified payroll, Be very hard and dangerous to try to bank hours.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm in Madison too. Never paid OT Unless over 40 hrs.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

We now pay set amount...hours do not count.

Do they count for you contractors ??? Everyone I use is a sub, they supply everything...and up to them if they do the work


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

On a Call said:


> We now pay set amount...hours do not count.
> 
> Do they count for you contractors ??? Everyone I use is a sub, they supply everything...and up to them if they do the work


Huh?


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Guess he pays his sub by the job


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ponyboy said:


> Guess he pays his sub by the job


Which would be relevant if the OP was asking for opinions on how to pay subs.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Guess u would be correct 
I did get hit by DOL for landscaping not fun 
OT is a very serious and heavy fines when not paid lesson learned


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> Guess u would be correct
> I did get hit by DOL for landscaping not fun
> OT is a very serious and heavy fines when not paid lesson learned


Disgruntled employee can cause a lot of trouble. The way I see it you don't want to pay OT don't work them. Tomorrow is another day. Dangerous game. Besides that when I was working I wanted it if I worked OT.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Wasn’t employees 
I was told they did a big sting but for 3 years they sat in front of shops watched truck come in and go out collected all info and bam your busted 
They hit all companies doing over a million a year 
So we could pay fines easier 
They hit all landscapers 
Pool companies 
Even excavation companies and more 
Most guys here are let’s say not 100% legal 
And would rather work 70 hours at straight pay then 40 and no ot


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> Wasn't employees
> I was told they did a big sting but for 3 years they sat in front of shops watched truck come in and go out collected all info and bam your busted
> They hit all companies doing over a million a year
> So we could pay fines easier
> ...


This is "that problem"

This is why the industries with "legit businesses" can't find laborers

The workers are there 
They're just working at 60 hours straight pay a week, rather than being limited to 40 hours because legit companies are afraid of OT.

If you have set overhead and your crew worked the full week, your overhead is recovered in the planned sake of the 40 hours,
There for in the next 10 hours they work over 40, you don't need to account for recovering OH, it's been recovered , so you can afford OT.
OT is dangerous when a particular job has gone over its labor budget.
But if the crew is taking in and doing additional work over and in addition to work that's been budgeted, then over time is healthy.

It's hard to educated people on this, it's like trying to explain good Cholesterol and bad cholesterol.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

My area is onky semi legal workers very few Americans will work been in business over 30 years 
Have work all year long 
I understand the whole business thing 
I laugh when guys say they can’t afford to be open 6 days a week or my payroll is too high each week 
It’s xheaper to be open 7 days and to me higher payroll means I’m making more money 
But facts are facts in my area you will not find enoug Americans to do the work or even 100% legal people it sucks but it is life 
I wish we could will never happen 
Even the nations largest landscape company in my area issues same work pool as me 
I’m a landscaper not a layer I can’t tell what papers legit 

And here goes a bunch or angry replies


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Huh?


Sorry ... I was tuckered last night when I arrived home.

I know it is not legal...at least if you treat them like employees. However if you pay them like subcontractors the over time thing is not even an issue.

Leave a sleeping dog lay.

If you are paying them cash and they are happy with their pay.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

One way I know a few contractor work is they pay their help straight time 8 x 5 = 40 hours. Now if they happen to work 16 hours one day as we all have done. They give them a cash bonus.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I don't pay overtime. But I do give both of my guys a guarantee of 5 hours whether they work 5 or less. I also paid them extra for showing up for a long shift when they had to miss the Superbowl, because it would be too easy to just call in sick or whatever, but they both showed up, worked long shifts, and never complained. Their food and drinks are always on me while they're working. But, both of my workers are subcontractors. I don't know the legalities of the rest.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

No real input, but found this interesting...

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...-overtime-case-that-hinged-on-an-absent-comma

Grammar does matter.

This tale also illustrates that if you skirt overtime laws, one disgruntled employee can cost you a bunch of $$ even years later.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Paying overtime is cheap compared to dealing with the DOL and their bull****. And I've never even had the (dis)pleasure of dealing with them. Just what I've heard from others who have.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

From our company handbook:


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

There’s this guy I town that apparently owns like every Mexican restaurant and bar in town 

Someone turned him into dol last year for not paying ot.

Fine and restitution was over a MILLION! (Not just one employee.. investigation revealed lots of employees screwed over lots of years)
Was a big article in the newspaper 

Guy shrugged and paid it 
Didn’t even miss a beat. 

I think we should all be selling beans and rice!
That’s where the money is at!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I can't believe anyone is talking on a public forum about violating basic labor laws.



On a Call said:


> I know it is not legal...at least if you treat them like employees. However if you pay them like subcontractors the over time thing is not even an issue.


So treat your employess like subs and don't pay OT, UA, FICA, FUTA, SUTA, SS, etc, etc, etc????

If you're tired, maybe don't post.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I can't believe anyone is talking on a public forum about violating basic labor laws.
> 
> So treat your employess like subs and don't pay OT, UA, FICA, FUTA, SUTA, SS, etc, etc, etc????
> 
> If you're tired, maybe don't post.


No....treat them like subs that they are. And no overtime is recorded.

Most folks pay folks like they are ( and yes I know most do it ) subs when they are are not.

I do however pay them in cash and ask for a receipt and they are aware I will provide them a 1099. One of them is charging me by the job making about 38 an hour average

I am trying to say make them true subs. I have two guys that went out on their own. Helping them where I can I am happy to give them work where I can.

And...for those times I need a guy once in a while...the law provides you with an 800.00 limit before having to 1099.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

On a Call said:


> No....treat them like subs that they are.


But they aren't subs and that isn't the point of the OP's questions. Try to follow along. He's asking about paying OT for EMPLOYEES after 12 hours.



On a Call said:


> Most folks pay folks like they are ( and yes I know most do it ) subs when they are are not.


Bull***...most people abide by the law. What a stupid comment.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


> But they aren't subs and that isn't the point of the OP's questions. Try to follow along. He's asking about paying OT for EMPLOYEES after 12 hours.
> 
> Bull***...most people abide by the law. What a stupid comment.


I say "most" not including large contractors doing over 300 k. If you were to look at the guys doing 50 k or so...I bet MOST are paying help with not paying taxes, Cash under the table.

However I do know of a company that most likely is in the 2 million realm of income that does not record any additional pay outs. Wrong yes you are correct I agree.

But for those one man shows asking their neighbor to help out on the storm. I understand them paying them cash.
I understand you have a larger operation and follow the proper protocol you do it correctly. And perhaps two of my subs should treat their helpers ( sidewalk workers ) correctly and take out taxes and pay over time. However I also understand their position, having a 14 dollar and hour guy all of a sudden becomes a 20.



Mark Oomkes said:


> But they aren't subs and that isn't the point of the OP's questions. Try to follow along. He's asking about paying OT for EMPLOYEES after 12 hours.
> 
> Bull***...most people abide by the law. What a stupid comment.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Actually you’d be surprised how many companies are pulling some kind of gimmick with employee pay procedures either they’ve convinced themselves or a friend has convinced them it is “ok”

The employee “sub” thing, by “leasing” the employee a truck is fairly wide spread. 

The thing is 
There are no work arounds.

Despite what crafty thing a company comes up with, it’s nit up to them to define the arrangement.

“They know they’re getting paid 1099”
Or “it’s ok they agreed to it”
Doesn’t change the fact they ARENT subs. 
It’s clearly defined 
It’s just that there is little enforcement for the issue unless an employee turns you in. 
So because people “get away with it” they interpret this as “ok”


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

tpendagast said:


> "They know they're getting paid 1099"
> Or "it's ok they agreed to it"
> Doesn't change the fact they ARENT subs.
> It's clearly defined
> ...


Actually you both are correct.

I am going to reevaluate our own procedures and set up policy doing things the correct way. Not only does this level the playing field it also helps support the whole system.

Thank you Guys for holding me accountable.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


> If you're tired, maybe don't post.


Please see above this post


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

On a Call said:


> Actually you both are correct.
> 
> I am going to reevaluate our own procedures and set up policy doing things the correct way. Not only does this level the playing field it also helps support the whole system.
> 
> Thank you Guys for holding me accountable.


I thought you were a one man show?

What about your "employee" that got the parking ticket?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I thought you were a one man show?
> 
> What about your "employee" that got the parking ticket?


It's an ever evolving "story".......

I have one word to solve all these problems....UNION


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> It's an ever evolving "story".......


Oops...my bad.



Defcon 5 said:


> I have one word to solve all these problems....UNION


Understood.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I really don't understand why companies don't treat employees as such. The small additional percentage that the employers share of taxes etc cost should be built into your hourly labor rate. 

We use Gusto for payroll. It's something like $30 a month plus $3 per employee. They collect file all the taxes from both employee and employer, provide W2's, and also do subcontractor payments and 1099's. 

Be legitimate or GTFO of the business.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I will pass on the 1099 thing to I would rather go with the casual employment thing, You put them on 1099 and 95% don't pay taxes and could cause you a nightmare when they get audited.

The rules are pretty close in every state and the answer been posted numerous times above, It's as simple is this. If you don't want to pay overtime don't work them. And if your working them 12 hrs per day I guess they get some of Thursday and all of Friday off.

Otherwise do like Defcon said go union or DB and the Union hall and the inspectors on DB will make sure you do it right. Man O Man.   :waving:


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Defcon 5 said:


> It's an ever evolving "story".......
> 
> I have one word to solve all these problems....UNION


I thought Ventrac was the word that solved all problems.....


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

BUFF said:


> I thought Ventrac was the word that solved all problems.....


Not in this very rare instance


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## tmlawncare (Mar 10, 2007)

CK82 said:


> Would you think larger companies, say 50 employees or greater pay OT after 12 hour shifts?
> 
> I'm sure it varies from company to company, I'm just hoping to hear whether it's common to do so or not.
> 
> ...


No one pays overtime for working more than 12 hours in a shift. Once they cross 40 in a week, yes.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

tmlawncare said:


> No one pays overtime for working more than 12 hours in a shift. Once they cross 40 in a week, yes.


"No one" is a bold statement


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

tmlawncare said:


> No one pays overtime for working more than 12 hours in a shift. Once they cross 40 in a week, yes.


I get overtime after 8 hours


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

tmlawncare said:


> No one pays overtime for working more than 12 hours in a shift. Once they cross 40 in a week, yes.


Federal Labor laws dictate that anything over 40 hours MUST be paid OT if they are a non exempt employee. Places where there are unions and collective bargaining may have stipulations for OT over 8. There are many places that pay OT after 8 hours. But at the bare minimum, you must pay after 40 hours in a defined work week.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

ktfbgb said:


> Federal Labor laws dictate that anything over 40 hours MUST be paid OT if they are a non exempt employee. Places where there are unions and collective bargaining may have stipulations for OT over 8. There are many places that pay OT after 8 hours. But at the bare minimum, you must pay after 40 hours in a defined work week.


Over 40hrs/week for OT is the key otherwise you'll have guys working "4" 10's and working 4days a week blowing off Fridays. With the anything over 8hrs/day being paid as OT they'll get 32hrs/reg and 8hrs/ X1.5. This only benefits the employee and leaves the employer possibly hanging when people decide to blow off a day.
When things are slow I give my guys the option to work "4" 10's so they have a 3 day weekend and with some of them driving 50-60miles a day to work they appreciate the option. To keep 5day a week coverage some take Monday and some take Friday off.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> I get overtime after 8 hours


I tried to tell them above twice. This is a very simple matter. Union and DB are getting OT after eight if the contractor likes it or not. Thems the rules and the BA from the union will make sure you get it. And DB are going to watch your certified payroll. This post ran it's course.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Defcon 5 said:


> I get overtime after 8 hours


I bet you don't when you're plowing snow...........:waving:


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I really don't understand why companies don't treat employees as such. *The small additional percentage that the employers share* of taxes etc cost should be built into your hourly labor rate.
> 
> We use Gusto for payroll. It's something like $30 a month plus $3 per employee. They collect file all the taxes from both employee and employer, provide W2's, and also do subcontractor payments and 1099's.
> 
> Be legitimate or GTFO of the business.


While I agree that everyone should be legal in regards to the employee/subcontractor relationship, I tend to disagree with the bold part.

I usually sit down with my CPA every year or two to go through my actual costs to ensure my hourly rate is as profitable as I want it to be. In almost every instance, by the time we figure 50% of Social Security, Work Comp, FICA, FUTA, SUTA (which had jumped dramatically in our state years ago), overtime, any benefits and bonuses, etc..... it generally comes near an equal amount to the base wage. So, unless you consider 200% "small", I tend to understand why people are baited into paying part-time employees under the table.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

jomama45 said:


> I bet you don't when you're plowing snow...........:waving:


Put it to you this way....When I'm plowing...My pay equals almost as much when I'm on overtime at my real job....


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Put it to you this way....When I'm plowing...My pay equals almost as much when I'm on overtime at my real job....


If you drive that Meatchicken special year round your a bizzy guy plowing snow to.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

FredG said:


> If you drive that Meatchicken special year round your a bizzy guy plowing snow to.


I work for the Plowlord...I need a break from my real job....I for the most part really enjoy plowing and the challenges


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> I work for the Plowlord...I need a break from my real job....I for the most part really enjoy plowing and the challenges


Thumbs Up


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

tmlawncare said:


> No one pays overtime for working more than 12 hours in a shift. Once they cross 40 in a week, yes.


some state laws are different on OT.

In alaska you pay OT over 40 AND over 8 in the same day.
So if the shift goes over into another day (because of midnight), then no OT
But if you had 12 hours in the same chronological day, then four of those hours would be OT; here in this state.


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