# Derating trucks



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So its been discussed many times and there never seems to be a clear answer. 

Anyone know of someone that does it?

I need to replace a truck 6 months ago. Stupidity on my part. Truck I'm looking for seems to be a unicorn...under CDL, air brakes and 3000 Series Allison with a PTO. I'm not finding anything out there and new trucks are unbelievably expensive and take forever to build. So I'm trying to find someone who will derate a CDL class truck.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I don't know for sure, but this would be the first place I would call and ask.

http://www.monroetruck.com/

Just judging by the hand written GVWR stickers on all of our trucks that have utility boxes on them, it would seem that for some reason they might have the ability to do so?

I could be way wrong too?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> I don't know for sure, but this would be the first place I would call and ask.
> 
> http://www.monroetruck.com/
> 
> ...


I believe that is only the case for a new cab and chassis delivered to an upfitter that installs the body and then determines the GVWR at that time prior to first sale. I don't think it can be done after the fact.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> I believe that is only the case for a new cab and chassis delivered to an upfitter that installs the body and then determines the GVWR at that time prior to first sale. I don't think it can be done after the fact.


10-4

I just noticed all of them are hand written and figured it was worth a shot.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'll try. I emailed their local dealer because they've done a lot of work for us.

Also checked with another upfitter.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> I believe that is only the case for a new cab and chassis delivered to an upfitter that installs the body and then determines the GVWR at that time prior to first sale. I don't think it can be done after the fact.


What if I add another axle to a used truck? Or a tag axle?

I don't know, but I know those things happen.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if I add another axle to a used truck? Or a tag axle?
> 
> I don't know, but I know those things happen.


Not sure - so far as I know, that would not change the GVW. The GVW factors in frame, engine, transmission, etc. so just adding an axle does not automatically up the GVW anymore than changing springs, tires, etc would. I could be wrong though.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Not sure - so far as I know, that would not change the GVW. The GVW factors in frame, engine, transmission, etc. so just adding an axle does not automatically up the GVW anymore than changing springs, tires, etc would. I could be wrong though.


I buy a truck with a 33k GVWR and add another axle with duals at say 20k rating and it doesn't change the GVWR?

You sure?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I buy a truck with a 33k GVWR and add another axle with duals at say 20k rating and it doesn't change the GVWR?
> 
> You sure?


No, I'm not. Hence my "I could be wrong."

But that implies that I could take an F350, lengthen the frame, scab on a few more axles, and somehow make it a 50k GVW truck.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I've been told by one upfitter that it is no longer possible...GVWR are tied to VINs and vice versa. Or whatever. 

Not sure how that works for upfitters like Monroe. Really not sure why it matters other than another little bit of freedom lost.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I find this whole topic rather interesting. 

When I ordered a new enclosed trailer a few weeks ago, I had (2) 7k axles put under it. The salesman asked me if I wanted it de-rated to under 10k. It would still be a 14k trailer as build, but the tag would say 10k 

So it is ok on a trailer, but not ok on a truck.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I'm just following this for the information.


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## Brndnstffrd (Mar 8, 2013)

Randall Ave said:


> I'm just following this for the information.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> I find this whole topic rather interesting.
> 
> When I ordered a new enclosed trailer a few weeks ago, I had (2) 7k axles put under it. The salesman asked me if I wanted it de-rated to under 10k. It would still be a 14k trailer as build, but the tag would say 10k
> 
> So it is ok on a trailer, but not ok on a truck.


It's ok on a trailer _because the trailer was new._ The word "new" is the key. If you opted to keep it at 14k, registered it, then changed your mind, you're screwed.

Before the trailer is sold, the manufacturer can set the GVW at whatever they feel is appropriate. _After _ it's sold, the only reason you would change it is the skirt the CDL laws.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> It's ok on a trailer _because the trailer was new._ The word "new" is the key. If you opted to keep it at 14k, registered it, then changed your mind, you're screwed.
> 
> Before the trailer is sold, the manufacturer can set the GVW at whatever they feel is appropriate. _After _ it's sold, the only reason you would change it is the skirt the CDL laws.


But why if I want to make it lower? It's not that it's unsafe or creating a liability.

This tells me it's about the money. Whether it be about requiring a CDL or higher registration, it's all about the money.

One thing I read was there's a higher tax on trucks rated over 40K so people would derate them to 33k.

Friggin government.

PS The main reason is obviously the CDL, but just for grins, I took an online Tanker endorsement test. 12 questions, I got 1 wrong. Never looked at the manual. So basically any moron (me) can pass it.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> It's ok on a trailer _because the trailer was new._ The word "new" is the key. If you opted to keep it at 14k, registered it, then changed your mind, you're screwed.
> 
> Before the trailer is sold, the manufacturer can set the GVW at whatever they feel is appropriate. _After _ it's sold, the only reason you would change it is the skirt the CDL laws.


What does new have to do with it? It is a 14k trailer, I built it to be a 14k trailer, how can a manufacturer say Bibitty Bopity Boo this 14k trailer is now a 10k...










The only reason that you would pay to make a trailer a 14k trailer then have a tag installed on the side is to skirt the CDL laws new or not new... Why not build it for 14k and rate it for 5k so you don't even need to go threw the safety lane?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> But why if I want to make it lower? It's not that it's unsafe or creating a liability.


The only thing I can see they could say with that would be that you are driving a bigger truck so it handles different, so said driver might should have a higher level of training.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> I find this whole topic rather interesting.
> 
> When I ordered a new enclosed trailer a few weeks ago, I had (2) 7k axles put under it. The salesman asked me if I wanted it de-rated to under 10k. It would still be a 14k trailer as build, but the tag would say 10k
> 
> So it is ok on a trailer, but not ok on a truck.


Just don't get weighed at 14000, and registered at ten. Around here they will get the scales out.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> What does new have to do with it? It is a 14k trailer, I built it to be a 14k trailer, how can a manufacturer say Bibitty Bopity Boo this 14k trailer is now a 10k...
> 
> The only reason that you would pay to make a trailer a 14k trailer then have a tag installed on the side is to skirt the CDL laws new or not new... Why not build it for 14k and rate it for 5k so you don't even need to go threw the safety lane?


Because it's within the manufacturer's right to set the GVW. It doesn't mean it's more legal to derate it, just that "The Man" can't stop them from doing it without "The Man" somehow deciding the correct GVW for every past and future trailer to be built outside of the manufacturer.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> The only thing I can see they could say with that would be that you are driving a bigger truck so it handles different, so said driver might should have a higher level of training.


Yeah...a 26k truck handles much different than a 28k truck.

I think it's the money.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> Because it's within the manufacturer's right to set the GVW. It doesn't mean it's more legal to derate it, just that "The Man" can't stop them from doing it without "The Man" somehow deciding the correct GVW for every past and future trailer to be built outside of the manufacturer.


So you are saying that mark needs to buy a new truck and have them build it to haul, handle, and stop 50k lbs but rate it at 26k lbs and that is all good??? 

I am sure your correct, but I can't help but find that dumb... If i wanted a 10k wagon, I would have built a 10k wagon not a 14k.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yeah...a 26k truck handles much different than a 28k truck.


Banzai!!!


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> So you are saying that mark needs to buy a new truck and have them build it to haul, handle, and stop 50k lbs but rate it at 26k lbs and that is all good???
> 
> I am sure your correct, but I can't help but find that dumb... If i wanted a 10k wagon, I would have built a 10k wagon not a 14k.


Perhaps you would - but plenty of other people that needed to tow 14k but didn't have a CDL would buy a 14k trailer, derate it to 10k, and just skirt the law. But, for the reason listed below, there isn't really anything they can do to thwart that on a new unit. On a used unit though, there is no likely reason for doing so except cheating the law. And they know that. And despite Mark's rant above, he admitted himself that it is "obviously because of the CDL"


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> Perhaps you would - but plenty of other people that needed to tow 14k but didn't have a CDL would buy a 14k trailer, derate it to 10k, and just skirt the law. But, for the reason listed below, there isn't really anything they can do to thwart that on a new unit. On a used unit though, there is no likely reason for doing so except cheating the law. And they know that. And despite Mark's rant above, he admitted himself that it is "obviously because of the CDL"
> 
> View attachment 192875
> 
> ...


Hey hey hey... IS THAT A PAPER COPY OUT OF A BOOK?????????????????


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> I can't help but find that dumb... If i wanted a 10k wagon, I would have built a 10k wagon not a 14k.


Any dumber than the fact that you can pull a 10,000 lb trailer, loaded to the hilt, behind a truck rated for 25,000, loaded to the hilt, with a standard class D license, but a 13,000 GVW truck empty, with a 14,000 GVW trailer, empty, requires the top class of CDL?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> Hey hey hey... IS THAT A PAPER COPY OUT OF A BOOK?????????????????


Shhhhh.....


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> but plenty of other people that needed to tow 14k but didn't have a CDL would buy a 14k trailer, derate it to 10k, *and just skirt the law*. But, for the reason listed below, there isn't really anything they can do to thwart that on a new unit. On a used unit though, there is no likely reason for doing so *except cheating the law.*


Explain to me the difference between "skirting" and "cheating"

It appears to be the exact same thing to me. New or Used, you are still trying to avoid the proper classification for your rig right?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> Explain to me the difference between "skirting" and "cheating"


There isn't one


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> Any dumber than the fact that you can pull a 10,000 lb trailer, loaded to the hilt, behind a truck rated for 25,000, loaded to the hilt, with a standard class D license, but a 13,000 GVW truck empty, with a 14,000 GVW trailer, empty, requires the top class of CDL?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> It appears to be the exact same thing to me. New or Used, you are still trying to avoid the proper classification for your rig right?


Of course. But as I said, they haven't (yet) figured out a way to stop it from being done on a new trailer.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> truck rated for 25,000, loaded to the hilt, with a standard class D license,


Not 100% correct, but I got your point and agree


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Of course. But as I said, they haven't (yet) figured out a way to stop it from being done on a new trailer.


I can order a brand new truck built to 33k but rated at 26k.

I have an estimate on my desk somewhere for just that.

Which is why it's stupid I can't do it after it's sold.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I can order a brand new truck built to 33k but rated at 26k.
> 
> I have an estimate on my desk somewhere for just that.


Thanks for keeping up.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Thanks for keeping up.


So why can't it be done after its been on the road?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So why can't it be done after its been on the road?


I can't tell if you're screwing with me. Have you not read any of the last 30 posts?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> I can't tell if you're screwing with me. Have you not read any of the last 30 posts?


I'm not. It's stupid. If anything derating a truck is safer because it has been built to handle a heavier load than what it will legally be able to.

And if it can be done before the fact, why NOT AFTER?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm not. It's stupid. If anything derating a truck is safer because it has been built to handle a heavier load than what it will legally be able to.


Because it doesn't have to do with the truck handling the weight. It has to do with the driver being competent to drive it and having the proper license to do so.

Frankly, I don't entirely disagree with them. You shouldn't be able to just change some tags to avoid getting a license that proves you know what the hell you are doing. *But *the fact that you need the top class of CDL is stupid. Going from class D to class C seems to be a bit more realistic to go from 10k to 14k


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Because it doesn't have to do with the truck handling the weight. It has to do with the driver being competent to drive it and having the proper license to do so.


That reasoning would fly if it could NEVER be done.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Is this a CDL thread That has had lipstick and a dress Appled to it?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> Is this a CDL thread That has had lipstick and a dress Appled to it?


At least Mark didn't ask about getting the air brake endorsement waived


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> At least Mark didn't ask about getting the air brake endorsement waived


You don't need to get anything waived if it's under 26k.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

:waving:


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You don't need to get anything waived if it's under 26k.


Do you have a special license to drive your kummings...?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Do you have a special license to drive your kummings...?
> 
> View attachment 192877


Yes


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Ajlawn1 said:


> View attachment 192877


And It's Oomkes green


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> And It's Oomkes green


I like pink...what can I say.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I like pink...what can I say.


 Apparently a lot ...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I like pink...what can I say.


Hows this?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> Hows this?
> View attachment 192884


Where did you get them....?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

cwren2472 said:


> At least Mark didn't ask about getting the air brake endorsement waived


I'm not sure if you're trolling or actually believe it's an air brake endorsement...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Randall Ave said:


> Hows this?
> View attachment 192884


Not good...



Ajlawn1 said:


> Where did you get them....?
> 
> View attachment 192885


Never seen one...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I'm not sure if you're trolling or actually believe it's an air brake endorsement...


Yes


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Sorry I didn’t ge to read all the responses I’ll get to them on a little bit. 

That being said the truck your looking for is a 2004-2006 Chevy kodiak 7500 with air brakes. My truck which started life as a bucket truck has an Allison 3000, air brakes and I have it registered at 25,900 so anyone can drive it. After 2007(ish) you can get yourself into an emissions engine which straight up sucked so don’t go they route. 

At the NJDMV they ask you what you want to register at. My first two trucks I’ve put at 25,900 so anyone can drive them and my last one I put at the max the manufacturer rates it, 40,500.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rizzoa13 said:


> Sorry I didn't ge to read all the responses I'll get to them on a little bit.
> 
> That being said the truck your looking for is a 2004-2006 Chevy kodiak 7500 with air brakes. My truck which started life as a bucket truck has an Allison 3000, air brakes and I have it registered at 25,900 so anyone can drive it. After 2007(ish) you can get yourself into an emissions engine which straight up sucked so don't go they route.
> 
> At the NJDMV they ask you what you want to register at. My first two trucks I've put at 25,900 so anyone can drive them and my last one I put at the max the manufacturer rates it, 40,500.


Registration means nothing when it comes to CDL requirements...in any of the 50 states.


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Crazy because I don’t need a CDL to drive the trucks registered under 26k as long as I’m not Weighing in over 26k.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I buy a truck with a 33k GVWR and add another axle with duals at say 20k rating and it doesn't change the GVWR?
> 
> You sure?


 I'm late on these threads, the up fit will change the GVW on the truck with the extra axle. The up fitter has there own tags they put in the door jam. It's legal in NY because I bought dump trucks from minici's that have been re tagged.

Furthermore I know a guy that got a F-250 and sent it to Rochester and had duels and a dump box on a single wheel truck. I have no Idea if it makes sense financially but has been done.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I order derate new trucks and trailers to stay under 26,0001 or when the truck is under 26,001 and a pulling a trailer under that needs to be under 10000.

Example, my 350's are paper dropped to 10K, and the trailers are 16K. I need the trailer capacity.

My 650's are 26k, and are pulling 14K trailers that are derated from new to 10k. In Illinois a non CDL class c license is needed. since we have employees from all other states that give 26K off the bat they are covered already.

My new truck coming in next week is a F 750 (33K) box truck derated to 26K


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

1olddogtwo said:


> I order derate new trucks and trailers to stay under 26,0001 or when the truck is under 26,001 and a pulling a trailer under that needs to be under 10000.
> 
> Example, my 350's are paper dropped to 10K, and the trailers are 16K. I need the trailer capacity.
> 
> ...


 This is correct, you can uprate or derate.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rizzoa13 said:


> Crazy because I don't need a CDL to drive the trucks registered under 26k as long as I'm not Weighing in over 26k.


Until you get caught.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rizzoa13 said:


> Crazy because I don't need a CDL to drive the trucks registered under 26k as long as I'm not Weighing in over 26k.


And on the flip side I have 2 trucks with GVWR under 26k and have them plated for 32k (I think, I know one is for sure) and I don't need a CDL to operate it.
Anyone can operate them as long as they have a med card and chauffeur's license.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

A CDL talk.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Randall Ave said:


> A CDL talk.
> View attachment 192898


It seems so very simple.

GVWR, registration and actual weight all come into play in different ways.


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## sota (Jan 31, 2011)

Randall Ave said:


> Just don't get weighed at 14000, and registered at ten. Around here they will get the scales out.


That's the part I was wondering if/when people would get seriously screwed on.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

sota said:


> That's the part I was wondering if/when people would get seriously screwed on.


Around here, overweight is a fine. Wrong CDL class gets towed away


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

cwren2472 said:


> Around here, overweight is a fine. Wrong CDL class gets towed away


Around here both are "out of service"

If you can't shift your load to get legal, your load does not move.

I have seen guys shoveling corn from a hopper bottom into a gravity wagon for being over weight. 

Good news is once you get your load legal... you still get the ticket. Thumbs Up


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

sota said:


> That's the part I was wondering if/when people would get seriously screwed on.


Why would it be a question if you are 4K lbs over your tags?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

A couple years ago I saw a quad axle dump that left the asphalt plant with a couple super troopers getting their scales out. Went by a few hours later and the truck was still there. Thought it was BS (unless there was something mechanically wrong) to not at least let the guy dump his load.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> A couple years ago I saw a quad axle dump that left the asphalt plant with a couple super troopers getting their scales out. Went by a few hours later and the truck was still there. Thought it was BS (unless there was something mechanically wrong) to not at least let the guy dump his load.


They were keeping him there till the asphalt got cold. And hard.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Randall Ave said:


> They were keeping him there till the asphalt got cold. And hard.


I'm sure they were successful.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> They were keeping him there till the asphalt got cold. And hard.


Have they driven on meatchicken freeways? I would have thought that they'd escort him.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hopefully I may have found my unicorn truck. Guy on lawnsite has an F750 built at 33k but derated to 26k. Air breaks, Cummings and PTO, everything I'm looking for. 

Wasn't really looking for another Furd...but you take what you can find I guess.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

When you come up here fishing have I got a deal for you. Pre emission, air tarp,air tailgate, air seats, air brakes only 275k/km.
No winters stored inside. 12k front,23k rear I'm sure US DOT will derate it...it's Canadian
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1428567956


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> When you come up here fishing have I got a deal for you. Pre emission, air tarp,air tailgate, air seats, air brakes only 275k/km.
> No winters stored inside. 12k front,23k rear I'm sure US DOT will derate it...it's Canadian
> https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1428567956


But do you need a Class Eh? Cdl to drive it?


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