# First big lot



## The Viking

So I got my first big lot this year, and dont know how much salt Im going to need.
I looking at buying a tailgate salter.  This and one other small lot will be the only lots needing salt. 
The sq footage of this site is about 100,000 total. 3 loading docks. My plan: Come in, clear the docks, and then do a couple clockwise circles around the building to clear the lanes on both sides then work outward on the three parking areas. I have a 7.5' Arctic steal straight blade on a GMC 2500HD. wesport No wings (yet) (any recommendations?)
My questions are these: (1) How long should I expect this site to take, to plow?
(2) How much salt should I expect to drop on a site this size?
I hope to be signing the contract on Monday,They want a seasonal rate, I said OK , but it's plus salt. I bid it at $3000.00 plus the salt. Im charging the salt by weight but he wants an estimate of how much it will be per visit and I have NO idea!

Any and all advise will be greatly appreciated, carefully considered, and completely forgotten when I visit my suppliers!


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## onlythebest

I don't do commercial lots but 3 grand seems pretty light to me for a lot that large is that really all there is in commercial places??


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## The Viking

Ya I'm afraid that I may have under bid, but I did the math: guessing 2hours per visit x $100 per hour x 15 visits = $3000. I usually estimate for 18-20 visits but we're half way through December with nothing really expected anytime soon. Plus it was already on my route...
I hope Im not screwing myself....


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## onlythebest

You can plow 100k sqft in 2 hours with a 7'6" plow on a 3/4 ton? That seems impressive to me. See I plow resi driveways with a mini loader so what your saying seems incredible to me


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## Antlerart06

The Viking;1539071 said:


> Ya I'm afraid that I may have under bid, but I did the math: guessing 2hours per visit x $100 per hour x 15 visits = $3000. I usually estimate for 18-20 visits but we're half way through December with nothing really expected anytime soon. Plus it was already on my route...
> I hope Im not screwing myself....


Look at it this way You will learn
I dont think you will clean it in 2 hrs Last time I owned and ran a 7.6 was in the 80s 
But if its a season contact Then pray for a season of 5 snow events then you'll come out ok

straight salt I say 500 lbs and 100lbs be the max and that depends how fast you drive spreading it


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## cet

Approx 2000lbs of salt. Are you using bag or bulk. I hope you make up salting what you lost plowing. That is a crazy cheap price. I would rather do 7 driveways before I tackled that price for similar money.


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## Cover Guy

I would say at least 1000 lbs of salt and its going to take at least 3 hrs I would defiantly get a set of the buyers wings on that plow you won't regret it


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## grandview

What you going to do when the snow blows off the roof and leaves drifts on the one side.


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## Wilnip

I use 500-800 lbs salt per acre to guesstimate. So like cet said, a ton is a good place to start. Just explain to your customer that conditions are different with every storm and you may use more or less depending. I don't think $3k plus salt is a bad number, especially since its the end of December already. Next year give him a modest price increase and give good service to justify it. Good luck.


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## Rc2505

As stated before, about 600 to 800 pounds per acre. You are looking at 2.5 acres, so 2000 pounds will be pretty close. With a 7.5 blade I am going to guess your alot cloase to 3 hours per plow, and with 2000 pounds of salt and a tailgate spreader your looking at an hour minimum to salt with alot of work involved in salting the place. I hope your going to charge close to 4 times your cost to spread salt just to come anywhere close to breaking even. Good Luck


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## leolkfrm

where will the snow piles be??...


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## mpriester

what about the salt only runs you have to try and figure in, you will be closer to 3 hours to plow it. i base my salt price at 20lb. per 1000sq.ft applied, temperature will help dictate amount needed. Don't forget about storm events where you may need to plow 3 times in the same day or event. These are only my thoughts and there are people on here with more experience but your price is low. Be Careful


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## The Viking

Panic, panic, panic 
Ok I I haven't signed yet, should I try to re-negotiate? Should I pass?
At four hours minimum that puts me well past my 12 hour turn around time (to get all my customers done). I guess 14-15 hour turn around is acceptable... 
Maybe he will reconsider when I tell him its going to be $500.00+ per salting.
Because I have been doing mostly smaller places, my salting was charged at 60 cent a Kg.
That puts me at about $550.00 per ton. My cost is $110 per ton bulk.
Am I shooting myself in the foot with this contract or am I blowing my brains out here? 

Anyone in Ontario wanna sell me a decent spreader?


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## Mick76

Have you considered what will happed if you have a break down? Your plowing price is way too low. whats your backup plan? have fun loading all those bags with a tailgate sander...it'll get old quick.... your right to panic but you will learn from this one...one way or the other....good luck!


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## leigh

I'd walk away.I've got lots that size and if i told you what i charge you would run away.And I'm not getting rich either.Grandview made a great point,the snow off the roof in some circumstances is going to make at least one side unplowable. I've got one job that drifts up to 4-5 feet! high. Have to bring in ss to clear.Sometimes when we have time we have a contest to see who can make it thruogh first without having to be pulled out.That being said ,only you know your costs and what you need to make.


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## Burkartsplow

The Viking;1539270 said:


> Panic, panic, panic
> Ok I I haven't signed yet, should I try to re-negotiate? Should I pass?
> At four hours minimum that puts me well past my 12 hour turn around time (to get all my customers done). I guess 14-15 hour turn around is acceptable...
> Maybe he will reconsider when I tell him its going to be $500.00+ per salting.
> Because I have been doing mostly smaller places, my salting was charged at 60 cent a Kg.
> That puts me at about $550.00 per ton. My cost is $110 per ton bulk.
> Am I shooting myself in the foot with this contract or am I blowing my brains out here?
> 
> Anyone in Ontario wanna sell me a decent spreader?


I feel you already gave the seasonal price and he is going to hold you to it. You can try to negotiate a better price for plowing and see what he says. I feel it is going to take you more then 2 hrs to plow that lot with a 7.6ft plow. And you said your turn around time is going to be 14-15 hrs. What are you going to do when the owner of that lot calls you up in the middle of your route and needs the lot cleaned up. You need to take that into consideration when giving a seasonal. Then after the storm you will have to do another cleanup that night before morning so everything looks perfect. So that is 3 trips in one day to the site. I feel your pricing for per ton of bulk salt applied of $550 is very high and not realistic. I think you need to really reevaluate if you want to take on this lot as it is could cost your mom in the end and also become a PITA. good luck


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## Mr.Markus

Let's say you sign it for $3000, and can double it with salt to $6000. For your ideal turnaround you can handle 5 more sites of likeness (using your calc.). $36 000. less expences, is that where you need to be?
I think a 1 man op should triple this or consider sub work. JMO


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## 90plow

A one man operation should be making 108,000 per season or if he doesnt make that he should be a sub contractor???


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## Mr.Markus

90plow;1539321 said:


> A one man operation should be making 108,000 per season or if he doesnt make that he should be a sub contractor???


Less expenses....


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## trustyrusty

Truthfully, I think you should walk (run). I live in southern Idaho where we get a fraction of the snow you guys in Ontario get and I have apartments where we make more than that in a season just on the sidewalks. And I haven't noticed a lot of extra cash laying around.


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## Wilnip

Viking,do you have anyone you can have help on this lot? Someone you can call when the shiz hits the fan? Or can you upgrade to a more efficient plow? Wideout? Or as said before, ad wings to yours? I would not walk away, you gave the customer a price and he agreed to it. What does it say about your business if you back out now and leave him high and dry? Just find a way to make it work.


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## JD Dave

90plow;1539321 said:


> A one man operation should be making 108,000 per season or if he doesnt make that he should be a sub contractor???


That's a pretty bold statement. So your saying a guy that plows in Toronto with 1 truck by himself should gross 108,000 with a 10 year snow fall average of 44"?


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## Mr.Markus

JD Dave;1539364 said:


> That's a pretty bold statement. So your saying a guy that plows in Toronto with 1 truck by himself should gross 108,000 with a 10 year snow fall average of 44"?


I think he was asking about my calculation Dave. ...and I do think 1 man is capable of $108,000 a season. I don't think it would happen in Toronto...


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## The Viking

Mr.Markus;1539308 said:


> Let's say you sign it for $3000, and can double it with salt to $6000. For your ideal turnaround you can handle 5 more sites of likeness (using your calc.). $36 000. less expences, is that where you need to be?
> I think a 1 man op should triple this or consider sub work. JMO


Although I dont agree that I need to be making 100K to make the business work, the amount of time required for this lot is way too much for the $3000.00 .

Large commercial bidding is very different than driveways and HOA.  I have a couple small strip mall lots (20spots) and a couple HOAs and my estimate for time was pretty much bang on what it actually takes. If I had estimated the time properly at 3 hours With my formula of $100 per hour x 18 visits for a full season would put me at $5400.00 which I would probably bid it at 5K plus salt. (That close to where you guys would be?)
Now it seems my salt price is too high for commercial applications. For my small lots and the driveways I am using a walkbehind, and let me tell you 60 cents a Kg is fair for that work! But of course Id like to be more competitive and get things done quicker so a tailgate salter is definitely in order....
What do you guys charge per ton through the spreader?


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## The Viking

Wilnip;1539361 said:


> Viking,do you have anyone you can have help on this lot? Someone you can call when the shiz hits the fan? Or can you upgrade to a more efficient plow? Wideout? Or as said before, ad wings to yours? I would not walk away, you gave the customer a price and he agreed to it. What does it say about your business if you back out now and leave him high and dry? Just find a way to make it work.


I totally hear you there, but on the other hand I rather back out now before anything has been signed with the explanation that I fear I wouldn't be able to service the property as well as they want it to be. As for leaving him high and dry, he called for the quote on Thursday so Iv hardly taken his time...
When approached about this property I saw it as an opportunity to really put me in the next class of snow removal, but from most of what im hearing this is likely to sink me.

So who works East GTA and want to make a new friend?


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA

Not saying you are biting off more than you can chew but what happens when you get a storm like we did last Saturday when we got 16" in 24hrs??


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## crazyboy

4 hrs and a ton of salt. Want to be my sub for that price? :laughing:


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## cet

Mr.Markus;1539372 said:


> I think he was asking about my calculation Dave. ...and I do think 1 man is capable of $108,000 a season. I don't think it would happen in Toronto...


Markus I think you might be able to get most of the way there with the right contracts but usually they have to be pretty small and simple. Not sure you could ever make that kind on money with one truck when you are plowing acres at 1 location.

To the OP I think the owner would have more respect for you if you went back to him and said I made a mistake and need to put a higher bid in. If not then walk away and admit you made a mistake.


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## 2COR517

You're not equipped to handle that lot. I'm surprised they are even considering signing with you.


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## trustyrusty

cet;1539597 said:


> To the OP I think the owner would have more respect for you if you went back to him and said I made a mistake and need to put a higher bid in. If not then walk away and admit you made a mistake.


Very true. Most likely he got other bids and he knows more than you do about how much higher you need to be to be competitive. He's sitting back and watching you right now. If you don't be upfront about it one of two things will happen: he will sign you up and you could lose big, or he will send you down the road and never again take you or your business seriously.


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## The Viking

2COR517;1539628 said:


> You're not equipped to handle that lot. I'm surprised they are even considering signing with you.


Upon hearing everyone's advice I would have agree with you 100% Im not equipped for this, I never even considered drifting snow from the roof. 
(1) I underbid the contract, (2) Im not equipped to handle this size lot (3) I haven't signed anything. (4) I am NOT a lowballer (just inexperienced with this type of bidding).

1+2+3+4= GET OUT!
Like you said, Im going to be straight with them and let them know I made a mistake before we both get screwed. I doubt it will make much difference to them, but I will be able to live with it. 
Guess its back to driveways and strip malls for me this year... Maybe something half that size next year...


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## leigh

Just remember bigger isn't always better. Being able to ask for advice and make an informed decision with humility and a honest view of your capabilities will be an invaluable positive force in the future of your business.Personally I'd rather have 5 lots at 100$ each than one 500$ lot.The old don't put all your eggs in one basket saying.Now get to work growing your business in a way that is appropriate for you.:salute:


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## jbart06

Im a sub and have some of my own work here in the cleveland ohio area im THRILLLEDDD if I can make 8k in a season. Though I am only probably 20% doing work for myself the rest is sub work. Im truly working toward being independent more and more each year (this is my third year plowing). If I ever found myself making 100k with one truck............


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## stang2244

90plow;1539321 said:


> A one man operation should be making 108,000 per season or if he doesnt make that he should be a sub contractor???


Can you just lay this out for me real quick....how many events do you have per season, on average? Where I am it's 12-15. Even if you have 20 events, that would be a 5k per storm average. Figure you are bringing in about $200/hr.... The numbers just are not there. But please, explain to me because I may just be missing something.


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## leigh

stang2244;1539883 said:


> Can you just lay this out for me real quick....how many events do you have per season, on average? Where I am it's 12-15. Even if you have 20 events, that would be a 5k per storm average. Figure you are bringing in about $200/hr.... The numbers just are not there. But please, explain to me because I may just be missing something.


It's simple math  $108000 / $ 200 per hour = 540 hrs of plowing. Figure best case scenario of snow fall ending at best strategic time.:laughing: 12 hrs of plowing per event would work out to plowing 45 events.


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## The Viking

So Im going to go talk to the guy today. Although I feel you gotta take the occasional chance when opportunity arises, I also feel that sometimes you just gotta know when you were wrong.
So if there are any larger contractors working in Scarborough, let me know and I will pass on your number, or better yet, Ill pass on their number to you, because you know they will be looking ASAP.
Leaving in half an hour....


I just wanna say thanks to all for the honest opinions. It been 4 years plowing with my own business and its good work, but I still have a lot to learn. I am fully licensed and insured and do lawn care/ landscaping in the summer, so Im in this as a profession not a side job. 

Let me know if anyone wants info on that property, at least maybe I can make a friend in the industry.Thumbs Up


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA

Kenny Rogers said it best "You got to know when to fold them and you got to know when to walk away"


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## ducaticorse

NICHOLS LANDSCA;1540134 said:


> Kenny Rogers said it best "You got to know when to fold them and you got to know when to walk away"


My Lord you butchered that..

"You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run."

In this case it would be "run". But It looks as if he realizes that now.


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA

ducaticorse;1540176 said:


> My Lord you butchered that..
> 
> "You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
> Know when to walk away and know when to run."
> 
> In this case it would be "run". But It looks as if he realizes that now.


You ment what I knew


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## 90plow

????? Those are called question marks i was asking someone a"question". Not making a statement. I was asking how one truck grosses 108,000 in a year.


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## stang2244

90plow;1540877 said:


> ????? Those are called question marks i was asking someone a"question". Not making a statement. I was asking how one truck grosses 108,000 in a year.


Sorry 90plow, I messed the quote up. My comment was directed 100% at MrMarkus. I'm in the same boat as you wondering how it's done.


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## JD Dave

stang2244;1540883 said:


> Sorry 90plow, I messed the quote up. My comment was directed 100% at MrMarkus. I'm in the same boat as you wondering how it's done.


Sorry, I'm wondering also.


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## Mr.Markus

It's 2 trucks, 1 backhoe, 1 man and 17years in business. My intention was not to reveal my #'s but to show the OP the limitation of his pricing on that lot. My breakdown runs $78,000 seasonal salt extra and some per push high end estates. 2008-9 my snow was $112, even with last seasons snow it came in at $103.


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## The Viking

Mr.Markus;1541012 said:


> It's 2 trucks, 1 backhoe, 1 man and 17years in business. My intention was not to reveal my #'s but to show the OP the limitation of his pricing on that lot. My breakdown runs $78,000 seasonal salt extra and some per push high end estates. 2008-9 my snow was $112, even with last seasons snow it came in at $103.


I know the area, my mother lives in Acton. Erin is up on top of the Niagara escarpment, and they get a lot of snow! 
Hey wait a minute... That's less than a two hour drive away! Any nice properties for sale up there Mr. Markus?
Seriously tho, thanks for the advice, I hope Im doing proportionally as well as you in 10 years or so. :salute:


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA

Mr.Markus;1541012 said:


> It's 2 trucks, 1 backhoe, 1 man and 17years in business. My intention was not to reveal my #'s but to show the OP the limitation of his pricing on that lot. My breakdown runs $78,000 seasonal salt extra and some per push high end estates. 2008-9 my snow was $112, even with last seasons snow it came in at $103.


A one man band pulling in $100K Congrats you wouldn't be able to pull that off here.


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## potskie

Mr.Markus;1539372 said:


> I think he was asking about my calculation Dave. ...and I do think 1 man is capable of $108,000 a season. I don't think it would happen in Toronto...


That's not entirely unreasonable actually.... I'm all sub work right now and I'm not to far off that plus my run is kinda light.


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## Mr.Markus

potskie;1541211 said:


> That's not entirely unreasonable actually.... I'm all sub work right now and I'm not to far off that plus my run is kinda light.


Oh thank God...I really don't need a bigger head. Haha.


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## stang2244

Mr.Markus;1541235 said:


> Oh thank God...I really don't need a bigger head. Haha.


How do you consider 3 rigs a one man show?


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## JD Dave

stang2244;1541262 said:


> How do you consider 3 rigs a one man show?


Very easy, he can't drive all 3 at once. Markus is a straight shooter and we have discussed his numbers over coffee. Not everyone wants to work as hard as him though. I won't even mention what he makes in warm months.


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## Mr.Markus

3 is pushing it...2 takes a little effort.


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## JD Dave

I thought you said that trailer was resereved for Fords?


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## Mr.Markus

The GM wasn't broke..it was just going for it's annual and I'm only one guy...:laughing:


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## LuckyPlower

The Viking;1540002 said:


> So Im going to go talk to the guy today. Although I feel you gotta take the occasional chance when opportunity arises, I also feel that sometimes you just gotta know when you were wrong.
> So if there are any larger contractors working in Scarborough, let me know and I will pass on your number, or better yet, Ill pass on their number to you, because you know they will be looking ASAP.
> Leaving in half an hour....
> 
> I just wanna say thanks to all for the honest opinions. It been 4 years plowing with my own business and its good work, but I still have a lot to learn. I am fully licensed and insured and do lawn care/ landscaping in the summer, so Im in this as a profession not a side job.
> 
> Let me know if anyone wants info on that property, at least maybe I can make a friend in the industry.Thumbs Up


How did the talk go? Feel better?


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## Metro Lawn

I don't know what kind of plowing most of these guys here do, but that lot is small compared to many that we do. I know I could plow that lot in just over an hour with a 7.5 blade on a 2-4 inch push. Toronto gets about the same snow we get here and the price is fine too. You will use about 1000 pounds of bagged salt as well. This site is pretty easy. Go around and do the detail work first (drag out the inlets ect) Then just keep going around the building pushing to the outer edges. You almost never have to back up and it looks to be pretty new and smooth. You could runs those long sides at a pretty good clip 25 mph or better. May be even faster than what I am thinking.


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## erkoehler

90plow;1539321 said:


> A one man operation should be making 108,000 per season or if he doesnt make that he should be a sub contractor???


No way! That's crazy, a sub here is lucky to make $8-10k plowing per season.


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## SnowGuy73

Mr.Markus;1541311 said:


> 3 is pushing it...2 takes a little effort.


Hijack Alert!!!!

Mr., what kind/brand dump doxes are those on your truck? They look sharp as hell!


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## Mr.Markus

www.eloquip.com

I too am interested in how the talk went viking.


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## SnowGuy73

Mr.Markus;1542279 said:


> www.eloquip.com


Thank you Sir! You like them, happy with them?


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## Mr.Markus

SnowGuy73;1542282 said:


> Thank you Sir! You like them, happy with them?


I am very happy with them, They know how to weld aluminum. I have a trailer from another manufacturer that drives me nuts with broken welds. I've yet to see a crack on either of these and the youngest one is going on 6 years now. They'll probably get moved over to the next truck.


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## ALCLAND1

Your making a good move by passing up this contract. You will put too much of a strain on your truck with a lot of that size. The $ just don't add up in your favor. There is nothing wrong telling a client, "I made a mistake" before you start vs after. Good luck.


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## The Viking

So after coming home from a salt run, I figure Im going to be pretty close to my 12 hour turn around time. 
I called him Monday morning and made an appointment to meet before noon. I went in and pretty much dropped my cards on the table. Told him that this was the biggest lot I had ever put a bid on, and over the weekend I consulted with some experts about it. I told him that as the contract was currently written (for smaller properties), salting was going to cost him between $300-500 per visit. I also told him that I was under equipped to take on this size of property. At first he seemed to think I was squeezing him for more $ payup, I reassured him that I wasn't trying to jack the price, but just trying to save us both a problem down the road. I told him that I apologize, but I would rather bow out now if I have any doubts about being able to provide the service. I told him that my bid was low and to expect to pay more, and also to expect about 3/4 of a ton of salt per application.
I went by today on my route and it had been salted, but it looked like only the front parking area had been done.

Its something I seriously considered, but I think on top of all other issues, it would have put me too late at some of my other properties.


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA

I don't get how people are bidding properties in the middle of December?? If you don't get back to me by Nov.1st (which is way late in my book) you're SOL call me next year. If it takes them that long to decide or think about the snow (which comes EVERY year) how long will it take them to pay their bill?


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## chachi1984

The Viking;1545246 said:


> So after coming home from a salt run, I figure Im going to be pretty close to my 12 hour turn around time.
> I called him Monday morning and made an appointment to meet before noon. I went in and pretty much dropped my cards on the table. Told him that this was the biggest lot I had ever put a bid on, and over the weekend I consulted with some experts about it. I told him that as the contract was currently written (for smaller properties), salting was going to cost him between $300-500 per visit. I also told him that I was under equipped to take on this size of property. At first he seemed to think I was squeezing him for more $ payup, I reassured him that I wasn't trying to jack the price, but just trying to save us both a problem down the road. I told him that I apologize, but I would rather bow out now if I have any doubts about being able to provide the service. I told him that my bid was low and to expect to pay more, and also to expect about 3/4 of a ton of salt per application.
> I went by today on my route and it had been salted, but it looked like only the front parking area had been done.
> 
> Its something I seriously considered, but I think on top of all other issues, it would have put me too late at some of my other properties.


hey, iam another guy from ontario, hes what i think, I do a few lots this size , 2.5 acrs,3.5 acrs , and 1.5 acrs. since you are doing an 2.5 acr lot I write about that.

for me with a single truck with 8ft straight blade I can do the lot in 2 hrs to plow , plus side walks and salting time. That all depends on how much snow. also its an easy lot , wide open no islands.

as for salting I the 2.5 lot I can just do it with 1yd/1 tonne (2000lbs). 115 per yard bulk pickup. I wouldnt even do it with a tailgate salter, going to cost 300 for a skid plus all the time to fill the hopper

as for price 3000 is pretty good when hes paying for the salt. most of mine are set price per month all yr round in that ball park.

last year I bid on 4 lot package , all roughly 2.5-3-5 acr lots. I bid around 3000-3500 per lot, with salt .plowing and lawn cutting and lost out cause a few guys were cheaper.

I would say for 3000 per month and he pays the salt, Isnt too bad if you get yourself a 1 or 2 yrd V box salter.


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## NBI Lawn

chachi1984;1546797 said:


> hey, iam another guy from ontario, hes what i think, I do a few lots this size , 2.5 acrs,3.5 acrs , and 1.5 acrs. since you are doing an 2.5 acr lot I write about that.
> 
> for me with a single truck with 8ft straight blade I can do the lot in 2 hrs to plow , plus side walks and salting time. That all depends on how much snow. also its an easy lot , wide open no islands.
> 
> as for salting I the 2.5 lot I can just do it with 1yd/1 tonne (2000lbs). 115 per yard bulk pickup. I wouldnt even do it with a tailgate salter, going to cost 300 for a skid plus all the time to fill the hopper
> 
> as for price 3000 is pretty good when hes paying for the salt. most of mine are set price per month all yr round in that ball park.
> 
> last year I bid on 4 lot package , all roughly 2.5-3-5 acr lots. I bid around 3000-3500 per lot, with salt .plowing and lawn cutting and lost out cause a few guys were cheaper.
> 
> I would say for 3000 per month and he pays the salt, Isnt too bad if you get yourself a 1 or 2 yrd V box salter.


You missed it... He bid it at $3000 for the season plus salt.

I think you went about it right. Letting them know after considering all aspects you were not well enough equipped to handle it was the professional thing to do.


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## Nutz4Plowing

90plow;1539321 said:


> A one man operation should be making 108,000 per season or if he doesnt make that he should be a sub contractor???


108,000 for a one man operation? One truck, plow, salter and 108,000? Where do you get that number from? Just curious. Not being sarcastic with all due respect.


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## Brian Young

I saw "how much for this and that" then I saw the pic, then a 7.6ft plow and tailgate spreader and started shaking my head. You did the right thing imo! Thumbs Up


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## allseasons87

stang2244;1540883 said:


> Sorry 90plow, I messed the quote up. My comment was directed 100% at MrMarkus. I'm in the same boat as you wondering how it's done.


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