# All Liquid Anti-icing/De-icing Questions Here!



## VS Innovation

I know there area quite a few threads started about liquid de-icing, but I would like to start a thread for any questions related to the entire process from mixing, spraying and sprayer setups, to the final result. 

Our company has been using liquid as our only means of de-icing for the last 4 seasons and have a very large knowledge base on the entire process. We have designed and built every sprayer and brine maker we use. 

No question will go unanswered, and I can promise no rude remarks or comments will be made by myself. I am here to give accurate information and to help clear up any unknowns you may have!


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## terrapro

What do you recommend for average coverage rates per gallon pre treating and post treating?


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## VS Innovation

terrapro;2119506 said:


> What do you recommend for average coverage rates per gallon pre treating and post treating?


In our climate (southern mn) where it is not uncommon to have 6-8 feet of frost and temperatures below zero, we pre-treat our accounts at 30-40 gallons per acre, and depending on the snow pack, post treat 80-100 gallons per acre.

We will also mix liquid calcium chloride with our brine in temperatures below 20 degrees. We have sprayed in -20 degree temperatures and have had water standing in parking lots all day. We have never seen our lots refreeze. The percentage of calcium chloride we use is dictated by the temperatures we apply our liquid in.


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## grasskeepers

Can I use treated salt to make brine


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## VS Innovation

In all honesty we have never tried using treated salt before. If mixed correctly you should end up with a 90% brine 10% calcium chloride mixture (depending on how the salt was treated). It might be difficult to test the brine due to the fact the density of the mixture will be different with the calcium chloride. The basic hydrometers are only meant to read a straight brine mixture. How much the density would deviate from regular brine would need to be tested. If I get some time I will run a test and measure the difference in density of a 100% brine mixture and a 90/10 mixture using the same hydrometer.


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## JMHConstruction

Do you use your liquid on walks? Last year I thought about it, but never really looked into it. It seems like no matter how much I show or train someone, ice melt gets everywhere and WAY too much is applied (had a guy use 27 bags on a property that should have used MAX 8-10 last year). Just wondering how it does on the walks.


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## VS Innovation

Yes, we use almost exclusively liquid on our walks. What we cant get with the boom on our toolcat sprayer we can with the hose reel. 
We typically apply 100-120 gallons per acre of 90/10 (or 80/20 at temps around zero, 70/30 when it is really cold). Our results have been great, and the higher application rates often leave plenty of active brine/calcium chloride to serve as a pre-treat for the next snow.


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## 86 CJ

We operate almost same as VSI does here in MD, in fact I think we are one of the only ones that use mainly liquids to pre/post treat accounts in our area. We don't get the same super cold temps as they do out there but our 90/10 Hot mix works well after storms right after plowing and clearing sidewalks and leaves customers with much cleaner sites then most others we see around here. I keep telling contractors to grab there backpack sprayers, buy some liquids from us and give it a try on walkways(easy way to not spend a lot of $$ at first), you just might like it and save yourself some $$. We do treat our own salt now with IBG to use on storms where they are calling for Ice, or in cases where there might be a re-freeze. It's our BFH of our tool box :weightlifter:


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## VS Innovation

86 CJ said:


> We operate almost same as VSI does here in MD, in fact I think we are one of the only ones that use mainly liquids to pre/post treat accounts in our area. We don't get the same super cold temps as they do out there but our 90/10 Hot mix works well after storms right after plowing and clearing sidewalks and leaves customers with much cleaner sites then most others we see around here. I keep telling contractors to grab there backpack sprayers, buy some liquids from us and give it a try on walkways(easy way to not spend a lot of $$ at first), you just might like it and save yourself some $$. We do treat our own salt now with IBG to use on storms where they are calling for Ice, or in cases where there might be a re-freeze. It's our BFH of our tool box :weightlifter:


Good to see you here CJ!

CJ pretty much hit the nail on the head. Our company is running straight liquid for pre/post treat. We very rarely will pre treat. The only situation we pre treat is if they are calling for ice build up. We are only post treating with liquid. We do not even own a salt spreader. In situations of ice build up we will simply run a stronger mix of calcium chloride and it burns through the ice. The cost is still well under running bulk or treated salt. If we run a 80/20 blend of brine/calcium chloride our cost is around $60 an acre post treating at 100 gallons per acre vs spreading treated salt at well over 100 dollars per ton. The 80/20 is already more powerful than most treated salts on the market and is much cheaper. If we were to run a 70/30 blend in the cold temperatures ( below -10*F) our cost is only $77.50 per acre and we are able to de ice parking lots in temperatures most contractors cannot handle.


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## Bluethumb

We are really contemplating going liquid. We have one account that just put new concrete in this summer and will only allow us to put calcium or magnesium chloride down for one year. We are having a hard time finding either in bulk for a reasonable price. Can this be done in liquid for a reasonable price?


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## VS Innovation

One of the greatest advantages of liquid (tho there are many) is cost. If you look at the numbers above that I posted a few days ago the prices of applying a 90/10 mixture which is what we use most of the time costs around 60 dollars an acre. If you were to run straight brine at a cost of 25 cents per gallon and at 100 gallons an acre your cost would be 25 dollars per acre to de ice. Most of the time due to temperatures we are forced to run calcium chloride, but it is still much more cost effective than spreading salt. Where are you located? We work with a chain of suppliers for calcium and magnesium chloride, I could try to get them in contact with you.


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## Bluethumb

VS Innovation said:


> One of the greatest advantages of liquid (tho there are many) is cost. If you look at the numbers above that I posted a few days ago the prices of applying a 90/10 mixture which is what we use most of the time costs around 60 dollars an acre. If you were to run straight brine at a cost of 25 cents per gallon and at 100 gallons an acre your cost would be 25 dollars per acre to de ice. Most of the time due to temperatures we are forced to run calcium chloride, but it is still much more cost effective than spreading salt. Where are you located? We work with a chain of suppliers for calcium and magnesium chloride, I could try to get them in contact with you.


SE MN between Rochester and lacrosse


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## SnowMatt13

You say that you had excellent results at -20 with your product but what was the pavement temperature?


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## CPSNM

Hello,

I am looking at going to liquid de-icing this year and have a question regarding salt brine.

Obviously when using straight rock salt to treat an area there is a lot of residue left behind. When using rock salt to make brine does this residue still occur?


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## 86 CJ

Are you asking about residue in the Brine maker or residue left over on the lot after you treat it after a storm?


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## CPSNM

Sorry, I am referring to the residue left on the lot.

If the answer is yes, is it possible to make other type of brine that will not leave a residue?

Thanks,
Rafael


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## 86 CJ

Answer is No, minimum residue left on lots. Remember that the salt is already in brine form and ready to work when you are applying it. Even with Calcium added to the brine your lots are night and day cleaner then dumping rock salt after plowing. One of the reasons why we have happier customers


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## Duncan IN

I take care of 4 Large Box Stores, we have issues with the floors turning white from customers tracking in the salt. Have you noticed any tracking inside stores when you apply Sodium Chloride in a brine solution? I want to be able to reduce the tracking to better serve my customer.


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## 86 CJ

Everything tracks in some way, deos'nt matter what product you use. The difference is that liquids can be mopped up quickly or wiped up easily inside store front entrances, where granulars are all over the place, so you are vacuuming, sweeping and mopping. Our customers that are worried about floors and nice entrances getting ruined get sidewalks treated with our Magic IBG brine with lower abrasion(chemical) on most surfaces.


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## VS Innovation

SnowMatt13 said:


> You say that you had excellent results at -20 with your product but what was the pavement temperature?


The ground temperature on the pavement was below zero degrees Fahrenheit. I do not recall exactly the number, but a few degrees below zero.

The attached images show a similar day, where the state highways were ice, neighboring parking lots were ice and snowpack, ours was bare pavement.. The temp at the time of the images according to weather underground was -4*f. We applied an 80/20 blend of calcium chloride and salt brine at 8am, these images are at 10am. The other properties shown had been salted with rock salt. 
Obviously the sun being out helped as well, but beginning of February in Minnesota, there is not alot of solar energy.


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## mike_dmt

Looks like a similar result as I get with the Cal I get up here in Washington state. 

I buy it pre-mixed at a 24 hour depot close by. Cost to me is a bit higher than stated above, at $1.15gal this year, but that saves me from trying to mix it myself, or store thousands of gallons.


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## VS Innovation

mike_dmt said:


> Looks like a similar result as I get with the Cal I get up here in Washington state.
> 
> I buy it pre-mixed at a 24 hour depot close by. Cost to me is a bit higher than stated above, at $1.15gal this year, but that saves me from trying to mix it myself, or store thousands of gallons.


We find that we can make the brine so inexpensively that it pays off for us under any scenario. However, we are fortunate to have a large property with plenty of room to make brine indoors and store in in storage tanks outside. 
What pre-mix are you getting for that $1.15?


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## dodge2500

Curious to know the best way to make brine? We haven't looked into it much but it looks to be something we need to consider. We currently use all clear lane treated salt but it would be nice to have some other options as well. We have a large home base property and I have several 1500 gallon poly tanks from our farm that we no longer use as well as an endless supply of 250 gallon totes. Obviously we wouldn't be switching everything at first but would like to maybe set one rig up to do liquid to see what results we can get. We also are looking to buy a snowrator for sidewalks and they come with a 20 gallon liquid tank for sidewalks. Any ideas, suggestions, and pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


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## VS Innovation

dodge2500 said:


> Curious to know the best way to make brine? We haven't looked into it much but it looks to be something we need to consider. We currently use all clear lane treated salt but it would be nice to have some other options as well. We have a large home base property and I have several 1500 gallon poly tanks from our farm that we no longer use as well as an endless supply of 250 gallon totes. Obviously we wouldn't be switching everything at first but would like to maybe set one rig up to do liquid to see what results we can get. We also are looking to buy a snowrator for sidewalks and they come with a 20 gallon liquid tank for sidewalks. Any ideas, suggestions, and pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks


The best way to make brine is in a brine maker. Typically a poly tank and plumbing system with some form of jet agitation or water flowing over salt to dissolve it into solution. 
Storage tanks are very helpful with brine as it is much more efficient to make your brine pre storm than to be trying to mix it when you need it.

A proper 23.3% brine solution contains 2.28 lbs of dissolved salt per gallon and will not fall out of solution in storage. This mixture has a freezing point of -6* f so it can be stored outdoors in holding tanks in most areas of the United States without fear of freeze up.

We recommend spiking your salt brine with liquid calcium chloride for optimal results.

There is lots more information on this forum, these are just the brine basics. Feel free to reach out if you have further questions.


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## Monroe74

So if you are using 2.28 lbs of salt for 23.3%. Do you have an idea what it would be for the 90/10 mix?
2.052lbs salt .228 cal seem correct?


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## Monroe74

I have been thinking about this for a couple years. But it seems like nobody really does it in my area. How would you go about looking for a depot to go to to get brine? I don't know the correct question to ask without looking like I have 3 heads.


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## 86 CJ

Monroe74 said:


> I have been thinking about this for a couple years. But it seems like nobody really does it in my area. How would you go about looking for a depot to go to to get brine? I don't know the correct question to ask without looking like I have 3 heads.


We are all about using Liquids for De-Icing similar to VSI, except just have some higher moisture storms here in MD. We are the only small local contractors making, selling and using our own liquids in our area. If you would like to try some Brine or Liquid blends out, come on down and buy a tote from us. I believe we are only an hour from you right past Baltimore. We have been working with small-medium contractors in the past two winters to try and get them started in using liquids.


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## VS Innovation

Monroe74 said:


> So if you are using 2.28 lbs of salt for 23.3%. Do you have an idea what it would be for the 90/10 mix?
> 2.052lbs salt .228 cal seem correct?


Interesting, i suppose that math comes out correct in theory... However the question is somewhat relative, because when i say i am mixing 90/10 what i am really doing is mixing a brine solution that is 23.3% salt brine and a liquid calcium chloride solution that is 32% or so calcium chloride. 32% is the optimal calcium chloride saturation for brine, with a freezing temperature of -59*F.. So the 90/10 is really just representing the ratio of salt brine to calcium chloride brine, not the density/quantity of each item that is in the mix.

If you are reading this, keep in mind this math is very specific to the potency of your cal chloride flake or pellets.. I apologize, but this might get confusing-
32% calcium chloride brine requires 2.44 lbs of calcium chloride per gallon of water to create.. Most commonly calcium chloride flake products are only around 75% potent, meaning 25% is made up of inert ingredients. In the case of 75% potency flake, you would need to add 2.44lbs/.75, which equals 3.25lbs of that flake to produce. 
In another example, if you are using a pellet product that often is only 20% calcium chloride, or even less in some cases, you must then be adding 2.44/.2= 12.2 lbs of that product per gallon (and be careful, many granular and pelletized products contain sodium chloride, potassium chloride, mag chloride, etc.. and all of these things throw this math out the window). If you consider a bag of those pellets costs $15, you will quickly see that $2-3 per gallon (or much less if you buy in volume) of liquid calcium chloride with corrosion inhibitors is a good deal. 
Now, back to your question.. In this scenario, if you already had salt brine mixed and wanted a 90/10 solution, you would add 10% of that 3.25 lbs of 75% potency needed, meaning .325 lbs

In every scenario and situation i have ever run for customers/vendors and contractor partners, purchasing liquid calcium chloride is cheaper and safer. High potency calcium chloride flake is nothing to mess around with.. It is unbelievably corrosive, will burn your skin, eat concrete, get very hot when mixed with water, or can even create chemical reactions if you are not careful. If you are set on using flake, know what you are getting into, and be sure you know what you are doing.

Sorry for the long rambling dissertation!


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## VS Innovation

Monroe74 said:


> I have been thinking about this for a couple years. But it seems like nobody really does it in my area. How would you go about looking for a depot to go to to get brine? I don't know the correct question to ask without looking like I have 3 heads.


If you situation is like mine, getting into liquid would be a smart move. I was the only contractor in my area doing it for the first couple of years.. We did it really well and it attracted attention from neighboring businesses, thus we gained accounts. Now there is one other contractor in town using liquid, though for pre-treat only, but we still have the advantage because we have such happy customers, in large part due to our all liquid de-icing program we use.

Where are you located? I can likely help you find a place to buy brine.. Or i can tell you how you can make your own brine maker so you can dabble in liquid inexpensively. Feel free to PM me.


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## VS Innovation

86 CJ said:


> We are all about using Liquids for De-Icing similar to VSI, except just have some higher moisture storms here in MD. We are the only small local contractors making, selling and using our own liquids in our area. If you would like to try some Brine or Liquid blends out, come on down and buy a tote from us. I believe we are only an hour from you right past Baltimore. We have been working with small-medium contractors in the past two winters to try and get them started in using liquids.


Great that you are so close by, that is a good option for you Monroe74... A guy who has liquid and experience in using it, great resource! Sorry i didn't see you post until after i already replied to him.


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## Monroe74

VS Innovation said:


> If you situation is like mine, getting into liquid would be a smart move. I was the only contractor in my area doing it for the first couple of years.. We did it really well and it attracted attention from neighboring businesses, thus we gained accounts. Now there is one other contractor in town using liquid, though for pre-treat only, but we still have the advantage because we have such happy customers, in large part due to our all liquid de-icing program we use.
> 
> Where are you located? I can likely help you find a place to buy brine.. Or i can tell you how you can make your own brine maker so you can dabble in liquid inexpensively. Feel free to PM me.


Great, I'll be pm'ing you soon to come talk and check things out. Thanks


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## VS Innovation

I do not have experience with Potassium Formate.. I do have experience with Potassium Acetate though, and based on my research, they work very similarly. I will not argue that it is a great option for certain situations, but in my experience, 1/2 gallon per 1000 is way too light of an application rate unless it is permissible to wait hours to melt things off (and that usually isn't an option on steps and entrances).

It is true that chlorides are not ideal for some areas, though a good quality product with strong corrosion inhibitors can be 85-90% less corrosive than rock salt.. So safe for most places that your average contractor would operate. That $165 for 5 gallons equates to $33 per gallon, and for sake of argument, lets say it does cover 1000 square feet with 1/2 gallon. That means a gallon covers 2000 square feet, ft for $66.

The Road Guard 8 product i use, 85% less corrosive than rock salt, is recommended at 35-45 gallons per acre if used undiluted, so 43,560 sq ft divided by 45 gallons = 990 sq ft per gallon, to cover the same 2000 sq ft the other product covers, i need 2.02 gallons @ $1.65 per gallon, $3.33.
About 1/10th the cost.
Just something to consider for areas where customers don't require a non-chloride product!


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## mike_dmt

VS Innovation said:


> We find that we can make the brine so inexpensively that it pays off for us under any scenario. However, we are fortunate to have a large property with plenty of room to make brine indoors and store in in storage tanks outside.
> What pre-mix are you getting for that $1.15?


 It's a Cal Chloride brine combo, with a rust inhibitor. I don't have the ratios, but I do know it weighs about #12 a gallon.

They mix it pretty hot from what I can tell. I can melt over 1/2" of dry snow with it fairly easily at about 50g per acre.

It also keeps a freeze point of about -25*f.

I would think of making my own, but I'd need a lot of room and equipment that I don't have.


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## VS Innovation

Not a bad price on a hot mix like that..

If it is good to -25 it's probably 25-30% cal chloride.


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## Broncslefty7

anyone have any suggestion for back pack sprayers or sprayers for a sidewalk crew? i do not have any side walk machines, we are still using push blowers. any recomendations?


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## VS Innovation

We have had issues with handle pump style backpack sprayers (even expensive ones) in the cold with parts snapping while pumping.. The plastics they use are not designed for the cold it seems. 

Battery powered backpacks can work well, but keep in mind that anything with beet molasses in it will have a tendency to plug up the fine spray tips that come with backpacks. Something free of molasses is recommended, such as Heatwave. Also, stay away from ones with lithium batteries, the batteries on the ones we have tried seem not to handle the cold well and discharge too quickly.


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## Broncslefty7

we bought the round up backpack sprayers from home depot, they seem to work pretty well so far. we will see how they perform in the cold weather. i think they where like 40 bucks a pop.


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## 86 CJ

We have been using the Lowes Smith Pro contractor backpack sprayers for the past two seasons with no issues. We run Magic Brine and our Calcium Brine through them, just need to keep them cleaned out when not in use. We also invested in a couple Earthway walk behind sidewalk sprayers and have had pretty good luck with them. They hold 6-8 gallons and come with three different size teejet nozzles. I have also built one of my own from a cart, tank, valve, pvc. You don't need to spend $800 on one, just need to get the right amount of product down to get the job done.


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## doro1

I am currently building a brine maker to at least prewet my salt. I am a little confused as to how the liquid is cheaper than bulk salt. We salt about 500# per acre. I pay $65 per ton for salt, meaning I'm paying about $16.25 per acre in salt. i believe I read that you use 80-100 gallons per acre. If I make my own calcium chloride brine mix at roughly 50 cents per gallon its costing me $40-$50 per acre. Where is my savings. I understand it works better in extreme cold and usually faster, but is there actually a financial benefit? I am setting up a 6500 series truck for salt. If I load it with bulk salt I can get about 6 tons on the truck, meaning I can salt 24 acres. If I load it with liquid I can only get about 1000 gallons to be at the same weight as the bulk. If I need 80 gallons per acre, I can only salt 12.5 acres in one trip. Just curious if I'm missing something in my math here? Still seems financially better to use bulk over liquid

Thank you,
George


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## VS Innovation

doro1 said:


> I am currently building a brine maker to at least prewet my salt. I am a little confused as to how the liquid is cheaper than bulk salt. We salt about 500# per acre. I pay $65 per ton for salt, meaning I'm paying about $16.25 per acre in salt. i believe I read that you use 80-100 gallons per acre. If I make my own calcium chloride brine mix at roughly 50 cents per gallon its costing me $40-$50 per acre. Where is my savings. I understand it works better in extreme cold and usually faster, but is there actually a financial benefit? I am setting up a 6500 series truck for salt. If I load it with bulk salt I can get about 6 tons on the truck, meaning I can salt 24 acres. If I load it with liquid I can only get about 1000 gallons to be at the same weight as the bulk. If I need 80 gallons per acre, I can only salt 12.5 acres in one trip. Just curious if I'm missing something in my math here? Still seems financially better to use bulk over liquid
> 
> Thank you,
> George


Everyone's situation is different. At our landscaping company we have the opposite situation.. we get our salt chunks or pit run salt for $20 a ton or less.
We also have access to calcium chloride for less than $1 a gallon, or we can get an improved product such as Road Guard 8 for $1.50 per gallon. 
We also have the ability to work in temps below zero, unless you are using treated salt, you can't do that. Our customer base is high end zero tolerance commercial and industrial. They expect the best and are willing to pay for it. Price isn't the only benefit for us, there are many others as listed below, and I promise you that no one could take one of our staple customers from us if they were going to be spreading salt.

Sorry this commentary below is a copy paste from a conversation I had with a customer, so the way comments are directed may seem odd-

Works faster; get the lot down to bare pavement much more quickly.. For some customers, especially ones who have had a major slip and fall claim from an employee or patron, this is worth alot of money.. We are still working on the case studies, they will be done this winter. But in most cases, we can get parking lots down to bare pavement 3-4x faster than rock salt can.

Reduced janitorial costs; the stuff doesn't track in and make a huge mess like rock salt and sand. Obviously it still tracks in on shoes, but it mops up easily and doesn't stain or scratch... We actually had a retail store who told us we saved them $2000 in janitorial and even more in wear and tear on their brand new flooring.. We are doing an actual case study with a few customers this year, where we will be using rock salt at one entrance, and liquid at the others.

Better for the environment; We have a very large account with a corporation owned by Rolls Royce, they are super environmentally conscious.. After I sent them the studies showing how much less chlorides we are putting down and how much less of those chlorides are getting into the storm water, they immediately signed the contract.. Some customers could care less about this, but others do! And in Minnesota, liquid will be law in the not so distant future. The MPCA has already proposed legislation mandating liquid use as at least a pre treat on private lots and roads exceeding a certain threshold.

Adaptability; you can work to lower temperatures by spiking your brine with calcium chloride.. Melt off parking lots in temperatures that rock salt doesn't work at all.

Better for concrete and asphalt; we are working with 3rd parties who have experience with testing concrete and asphalt for structural integrity and wear levels, it make take a few years but we will have studies out on this as well.. We experience almost no freeze thaw cycles when we use liquid with calcium chloride mixed in. That, along with the corrosion inhibitors are better for your customers asphalt and especially concrete.

And for you, as the contractor, in addition to these benefits above, you can likely do this for the same or a higher price to your customers with lower input costs on your end. Not only lower input costs, but the equipment to apply liquid has much greater longevity than equipment that applies salt. The new poly v-box spreaders are a great improvement in longevity of salting equipment, but the moving parts are still susceptible to seizing up, wearing out or jamming during usage. Not so with liquid.

Another unique part of your situation is that you are only paying $65 a ton for rock salt, we have met with 100s of contractors and most are paying $80+ per ton. Many are paying over $100. 
You also are only applying 500 lbs per acre. 
A majority of the guys we talk to are applying a minimum of 800 lbs per acre and as much as 1500 lbs per acre. Most seem to be in that 1000 lb per acre range. 
Re-run the numbers with those averages and things look quite a bit better.. 
in our analysis we have done on this forum we have typically used $75 a ton as a salt price in order not to bias our results.

Again, in a situation like yours, financially it doesn't make sense to use liquid for post treat. But for most guys, the numbers tell a different story. And again, it's not just about numbers, other benefits as mentioned above would mean something to some of your and other's customers.


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## VS Innovation

I should clarify, the salt we get for $20 a ton or less is to make our brine with. It comes in random large chunks and is not usable as road salt, it cannot be spread.. but it works great to make brine with.


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## Broncslefty7

my cost per acre bulk salt about 700 lbs per acre is $28.00

my cost per acre with liquid 65 gal. is $5.47


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## mpriester

When you are putting liquid on a lot are you using a pump to pressurize it or just letting gravity flow from the tank when applying it?


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## Broncslefty7

pump to pressurize.


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## mpriester

Broncslefty7 said:


> pump to pressurize.


Thank You


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## VS Innovation

All of our sprayers are electric or gas pump operated. We also use a speed control rate application system that adjusts your flow rate based on your speed so that you don't over or under apply.


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## ryanrodhoc2

So we are making a move this year to start pre-wetting our salt at the spinners. We roughly use 600 Tons of salt per year. I am intrigued on switching a truck over to fully liquid as well and trying it on a few parking lots seeing if we can reek the benefits. From what i am reading to pre-wet salt at the spinner we will use roughly 8-10 gallons per yard of salt ( Any Truth)? That being said we are purchasing a 450 Gallon brine maker to make our own brine.

Now we are located in south western PA. So our temperatures vary though out the season. I am very interested in making a hot brine mix. I do not feel that we will need to run this through the entire season but may be needed for the month of January when our temperatures are in the teens. No reading this post and many others i am not 100% certain on how to mix in the liquid calcium to get a 90-10 mix. Should i mix my brine to 23.3% then add 45 gallons of liquid calcium to get my 90-10 mix or do i need to do something different.

Also any suggestions on where to get a tote of liquid calcium?

Thanks for the help.


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## Broncslefty7

ryanrodhoc2 said:


> So we are making a move this year to start pre-wetting our salt at the spinners. We roughly use 600 Tons of salt per year. I am intrigued on switching a truck over to fully liquid as well and trying it on a few parking lots seeing if we can reek the benefits. From what i am reading to pre-wet salt at the spinner we will use roughly 8-10 gallons per yard of salt ( Any Truth)? That being said we are purchasing a 450 Gallon brine maker to make our own brine.
> 
> Now we are located in south western PA. So our temperatures vary though out the season. I am very interested in making a hot brine mix. I do not feel that we will need to run this through the entire season but may be needed for the month of January when our temperatures are in the teens. No reading this post and many others i am not 100% certain on how to mix in the liquid calcium to get a 90-10 mix. Should i mix my brine to 23.3% then add 45 gallons of liquid calcium to get my 90-10 mix or do i need to do something different.
> 
> Also any suggestions on where to get a tote of liquid calcium?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


we buy 50 lb. bags of dow flake that works pretty good but we use a ton of it in the summer for our swimming pools. we also made our brine maker our selves. with parts and everything total cost came to around $1,600. it takes my plumbers about 2 hours to put together, we have sold a few of them to local companies recently. it does about 520 gallon batches.

we mix our brine to 23.3%, then add 10% or 15% calcium depending on temps out side. your dilution rate will change in the salt brine once you add the calcium. generally after we add our calcium the hydrometer reads around 25% with the salt and calcium brines combined.


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## 86 CJ

VS Innovation said:


> Everyone's situation is different. At our landscaping company we have the opposite situation.. we get our salt chunks or pit run salt for $20 a ton or less.
> We also have access to calcium chloride for less than $1 a gallon, or we can get an improved product such as Road Guard 8 for $1.50 per gallon.
> We also have the ability to work in temps below zero, unless you are using treated salt, you can't do that. Our customer base is high end zero tolerance commercial and industrial. They expect the best and are willing to pay for it. Price isn't the only benefit for us, there are many others as listed below, and I promise you that no one could take one of our staple customers from us if they were going to be spreading salt.
> 
> Sorry this commentary below is a copy paste from a conversation I had with a customer, so the way comments are directed may seem odd-
> 
> Works faster; get the lot down to bare pavement much more quickly.. For some customers, especially ones who have had a major slip and fall claim from an employee or patron, this is worth alot of money.. We are still working on the case studies, they will be done this winter. But in most cases, we can get parking lots down to bare pavement 3-4x faster than rock salt can.
> 
> Reduced janitorial costs; the stuff doesn't track in and make a huge mess like rock salt and sand. Obviously it still tracks in on shoes, but it mops up easily and doesn't stain or scratch... We actually had a retail store who told us we saved them $2000 in janitorial and even more in wear and tear on their brand new flooring.. We are doing an actual case study with a few customers this year, where we will be using rock salt at one entrance, and liquid at the others.
> 
> Better for the environment; We have a very large account with a corporation owned by Rolls Royce, they are super environmentally conscious.. After I sent them the studies showing how much less chlorides we are putting down and how much less of those chlorides are getting into the storm water, they immediately signed the contract.. Some customers could care less about this, but others do! And in Minnesota, liquid will be law in the not so distant future. The MPCA has already proposed legislation mandating liquid use as at least a pre treat on private lots and roads exceeding a certain threshold.
> 
> Adaptability; you can work to lower temperatures by spiking your brine with calcium chloride.. Melt off parking lots in temperatures that rock salt doesn't work at all.
> 
> Better for concrete and asphalt; we are working with 3rd parties who have experience with testing concrete and asphalt for structural integrity and wear levels, it make take a few years but we will have studies out on this as well.. We experience almost no freeze thaw cycles when we use liquid with calcium chloride mixed in. That, along with the corrosion inhibitors are better for your customers asphalt and especially concrete.
> 
> And for you, as the contractor, in addition to these benefits above, you can likely do this for the same or a higher price to your customers with lower input costs on your end. Not only lower input costs, but the equipment to apply liquid has much greater longevity than equipment that applies salt. The new poly v-box spreaders are a great improvement in longevity of salting equipment, but the moving parts are still susceptible to seizing up, wearing out or jamming during usage. Not so with liquid.
> 
> Another unique part of your situation is that you are only paying $65 a ton for rock salt, we have met with 100s of contractors and most are paying $80+ per ton. Many are paying over $100.
> You also are only applying 500 lbs per acre.
> A majority of the guys we talk to are applying a minimum of 800 lbs per acre and as much as 1500 lbs per acre. Most seem to be in that 1000 lb per acre range.
> Re-run the numbers with those averages and things look quite a bit better..
> in our analysis we have done on this forum we have typically used $75 a ton as a salt price in order not to bias our results.
> 
> Again, in a situation like yours, financially it doesn't make sense to use liquid for post treat. But for most guys, the numbers tell a different story. And again, it's not just about numbers, other benefits as mentioned above would mean something to some of your and other's customers.


We have had this almost exact same conversation and answer to many guys around here in MD that are use to just dumping rock salt and calling it a day(because they have been for 15 years). There are many variables and advantages to using the liquids the way we use them and seeing faster, cleaner results. Most guys don't even realize how much salt they are using per acre, especially when the temps are low and there is refreeze in the early AM. They are doubling(800-1600lbs/acre) there rock salt down(leaving piles of it the next morning on many commercial lots) and we are using the same 80-110 gallons of solution and having much cleaner lots and Property Managers love it. Unless you spend the time to use them or make liquids yourself (Contractor) or try it out as a Property manager(service), you really won't know the comparable benefits of using mostly liquids over traditional granular.


----------



## 86 CJ

ryanrodhoc2 said:


> So we are making a move this year to start pre-wetting our salt at the spinners. We roughly use 600 Tons of salt per year. I am intrigued on switching a truck over to fully liquid as well and trying it on a few parking lots seeing if we can reek the benefits. From what i am reading to pre-wet salt at the spinner we will use roughly 8-10 gallons per yard of salt ( Any Truth)? That being said we are purchasing a 450 Gallon brine maker to make our own brine.
> 
> Now we are located in south western PA. So our temperatures vary though out the season. I am very interested in making a hot brine mix. I do not feel that we will need to run this through the entire season but may be needed for the month of January when our temperatures are in the teens. No reading this post and many others i am not 100% certain on how to mix in the liquid calcium to get a 90-10 mix. Should i mix my brine to 23.3% then add 45 gallons of liquid calcium to get my 90-10 mix or do i need to do something different.
> 
> Also any suggestions on where to get a tote of liquid calcium?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Ryan

From all of the research we have done on trying to find Liquid Calcium in our area, the costs are way to $$. We operate the same way Bronc just stated and buy pallets of Calcium flake and make our our liquid Cal. We then add that to our Brine at a rate of 10-15% , depending on temps the week of the storm.


----------



## ryanrodhoc2

Broncslefty7 said:


> we buy 50 lb. bags of dow flake that works pretty good but we use a ton of it in the summer for our swimming pools. we also made our brine maker our selves. with parts and everything total cost came to around $1,600. it takes my plumbers about 2 hours to put together, we have sold a few of them to local companies recently. it does about 520 gallon batches.
> 
> we mix our brine to 23.3%, then add 10% or 15% calcium depending on temps out side. your dilution rate will change in the salt brine once you add the calcium. generally after we add our calcium the hydrometer reads around 25% with the salt and calcium brines combined.
> 
> View attachment 167339


So what figure do you base the 10-15% of calcium off of? Ie: IF i were to make 450 gallons of brine i would use 1030 pounds of salt. Would i then use 125# of calcium based of the salt? or would i use 50# based of the gallons of solution? Also do you mix this in after your brine is made and then circulate or do you add this when you add you salt?

Also do you pre-wett at the spinner or do you do liquid applications?

Thanks for the help


----------



## VS Innovation

ryanrodhoc2 said:


> So we are making a move this year to start pre-wetting our salt at the spinners. We roughly use 600 Tons of salt per year. I am intrigued on switching a truck over to fully liquid as well and trying it on a few parking lots seeing if we can reek the benefits. From what i am reading to pre-wet salt at the spinner we will use roughly 8-10 gallons per yard of salt ( Any Truth)? That being said we are purchasing a 450 Gallon brine maker to make our own brine.
> 
> Now we are located in south western PA. So our temperatures vary though out the season. I am very interested in making a hot brine mix. I do not feel that we will need to run this through the entire season but may be needed for the month of January when our temperatures are in the teens. No reading this post and many others i am not 100% certain on how to mix in the liquid calcium to get a 90-10 mix. Should i mix my brine to 23.3% then add 45 gallons of liquid calcium to get my 90-10 mix or do i need to do something different.
> 
> Also any suggestions on where to get a tote of liquid calcium?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


I am unsure of the rates to apply with pre-wetting.. But based on searching the forum, 8-10 gallons per ton of salt is what i am finding as well.

A hot brine mix will be necessary for effective results in post treatment usage in temps below 25*F (or when ground temps are very cold). I will PM you some suppliers for liquid cal, otherwise it sounds like some guys have had success mixing flake for a good price.. 
For what we pay for liquid cal in MN mixing flake isn't worth it for us, much cheaper for us to buy it ready to go.


----------



## ryanrodhoc2

Also to touch i have yet to find this on. Do you keep liquid in your tanks after a storm is over until it is used again or do you keep you tanks drained and refill at the next storm?


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## VS Innovation

We like to keep our 23.3% salt brine and our 32% calcium chloride seperate until point of use, meaning we mix it in the sprayer its going to spray from at the time of use, based on temps and conditions.. 

Once you have 23.3% salt brine and 32% cal chloride brine, you mix them at a 90/10 or whatever your preferred ratio, in 1000 gallon sprayer, 900 gallons of salt brine, 100 gallons of calcium chloride brine.. 

As for mixing flake into your salt brine, i don't know if that is the best way to do it, but if you were, here is how, this is a copy paste from earlier in this thread- 

"Keep in mind this math is very specific to the potency of your cal chloride flake or pellets.. I apologize, but this might get confusing-
32% calcium chloride brine requires 2.44 lbs of calcium chloride per gallon of water to create.. Most commonly calcium chloride flake products are only around 75% potent, meaning 25% is made up of inert ingredients. In the case of 75% potency flake, you would need to add 2.44lbs/.75, which equals 3.25lbs of that flake to produce. 
In another example, if you are using a pellet product that often is only 20% calcium chloride, or even less in some cases, you must then be adding 2.44/.2= 12.2 lbs of that product per gallon (and be careful, many granular and pelletized products contain sodium chloride, potassium chloride, mag chloride, etc.. and all of these things throw this math out the window). If you consider a bag of those pellets costs $15, you will quickly see that $2-3 per gallon (or much less if you buy in volume) of liquid calcium chloride with corrosion inhibitors is a good deal. 
Now, back to your question.. In this scenario, if you already had salt brine mixed and wanted a 90/10 solution, you would add 10% of that 3.25 lbs of 75% potency needed, meaning .325 lbs "


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## VS Innovation

We leave ours in the tanks.. The only thing we flush out is the boom, because it if sits long enough and the liquid evaporates, salt or calcium deposits will be left behind and clog your boom. 
In the spring we flush out the entire system well and run baking soda or similar through it as a neutralizer.


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## 86 CJ

We keep our different liquids in seperate tanks and yes they are fine all through the year in there tanks without draining them.


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## Broncslefty7

we empty our tanks and rinse them "inside" the building. just in case.

we are treating with liquids not pre wetting.


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## cjames808

Does the brine have anymore impact on lawns? (If some brine gets on there)

We are running one brine truck this year and plan on spraying stairs and entries with the hose.

What is a good wand or sprayer for walks? We have a tree gun, lesco gun, and generic sprinkler wand. 

I just finished up our brine maker, now I am putting together our tank and boom setup.

A tote of liquid Calcium Chloride 32% is $275 here in Milwaukee area if any one is looking.
Thanks


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## 86 CJ

Brine is Salt water, so yes it will kill grass if you are over spraying. We don't use regular brine on sidewalks, we use our IBG mixed Brine that is better for sidewalk and environment. It's not a great idea to use rock salt on sidewalks, so if regular brine is all you have, just apply enough down to get the ice melted and don't soak it and kill surrounding grass. Our backpack sprayers(fan spray) just put the right amount down before after snow removal. We also have used Tractor Supply spray guns on our truck setup, but just fan spray the center of the walks and let it run to the outside for melting and preventing more ice from building up. Your lesco gun will work fine, just don't over apply and kill surrounding areas.


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## SnowMatt13

In pre wetting more is better. The industry standard is just that. We've had success at 40 plus gallons per ton.


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## cjames808

What type of electric pump is needed?

I see northern tool has diaphragm 12v electric pumps for lawn sprayers. 

Is 5-7gpm a good rate for a brine boom?


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## Broncslefty7

did some sidewalk pretreating with the guys last night. this liquid stuff is definitely going to take some explaining to people, they all thought it was pesticides.............................. On concrete sidewalks...............

Sigh people these days............. (must be Hillary supporters.)


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## Mark Oomkes

cjames808 said:


> What type of electric pump is needed?
> 
> I see northern tool has diaphragm 12v electric pumps for lawn sprayers.
> 
> Is 5-7gpm a good rate for a brine boom?


Try 40 GPM.


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> did some sidewalk pretreating with the guys last night. this liquid stuff is definitely going to take some explaining to people, they all thought it was pesticides.............................. On concrete sidewalks...............
> 
> Sigh people these days............. (must be Hillary supporters.)


We plaster liquid de-icer stickers all over our spray equipment.. we also keep educational flyers in the trucks to hand out to concerned patrons or usually neighbors or clients of our customers.


----------



## VS Innovation

cjames808 said:


> What type of electric pump is needed?
> 
> I see northern tool has diaphragm 12v electric pumps for lawn sprayers.
> 
> Is 5-7gpm a good rate for a brine boom?


5-7 gpm is way low.. if you want to travel at any decent speed or spray a wide pattern, the minimum we recommend is 25gpm for pretreat setups. Check dultmeier, they sell a nice 26gpm electric pump. It is centrifugal so you won't have as many issues with dirty brine messing up your pumps.. diaphragm pumps don't like debris in them.

Otherwise Honda gas motors on poly pumps is what we run on most of our equipment.


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## 86 CJ

cjames808 said:


> What type of electric pump is needed?
> 
> I see northern tool has diaphragm 12v electric pumps for lawn sprayers.
> 
> Is 5-7gpm a good rate for a brine boom?


That will work fine, just make sure its all Poly, I would go with the 7gm for single boom application if you can, any Ag supply store with those pumps will work. I would recommend going with an inexpensive 5hp 2" gas pump thought, its the same price and you can use it to quick fill and spray. Electric pump, you will be there all day filling, then there is the 12v electrical issues in the storms. We have built both, but most of our stuff is gas.


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## Mark Oomkes

86 CJ said:


> That will work fine, just make sure its all Poly, I would go with the 7gm for single boom application if you can, any Ag supply store with those pumps will work. I would recommend going with an inexpensive 5hp 2" gas pump thought, its the same price and you can use it to quick fill and spray. Electric pump, you will be there all day filling, then there is the 12v electrical issues in the storms. We have built both, but most of our stuff is gas.


Only for sidewalks, not for parking lots.

7 GPM was on the low side when I was using a 25 gallon spot sprayer with a 2 nozzle boom for sidewalks.

It'll never work for getting a parking lot done.


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## 86 CJ

Mark Oomkes said:


> Only for sidewalks, not for parking lots.
> 
> 7 GPM was on the low side when I was using a 25 gallon spot sprayer with a 2 nozzle boom for sidewalks.
> 
> It'll never work for getting a parking lot done.


Mark

You are correct , I was in the middle of another conversation with a guy trying to build a sidewalk sprayer. It would work, but you might be there for an hour spraying the lot :hammerhead: I usually tell people to stick with Gas to get more bang for you $$, but if electric is what they want they can spend the $$ on it.


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## Broncslefty7

we use 4 gallon round up back pack sprayers for our walks and they work fine.


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## mike_dmt

For parking lots, I use a 2" gas powered pump, and shoot for 9gpm. No GPS, just watch the speedo like a hawk. 

My nozzles are a little closer together than the calc sheet, so I'm probably closer to 10gpm. That lets me apply right around 55-60gpa, at 10mph..

That also will give me a decently wide spray pattern with the single on, more when I turn on the second. Closer to 13-14 feet wide, and 14gpm, give or take. .

New setup should be done next week. Just in time, from the looks of it. 

I'll post some build pics if you guys want.


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## mike_dmt

Here's the new tank. 600 Gal.

I had to get rid of the XL trim lights. I have flashlights that do a better job.

Don't make fun of my muddy driveway..lol Planning on asphalt this spring.


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## rick W

mike_dmt said:


> For parking lots, I use a 2" gas powered pump, and shoot for 9gpm. No GPS, just watch the speedo like a hawk.
> 
> My nozzles are a little closer together than the calc sheet, so I'm probably closer to 10gpm. That lets me apply right around 55-60gpa, at 10mph..
> 
> That also will give me a decently wide spray pattern with the single on, more when I turn on the second. Closer to 13-14 feet wide, and 14gpm, give or take. .
> 
> New setup should be done next week. Just in time, from the looks of it.
> 
> I'll post some build pics if you guys want.


YES MORE PICS>>> my brain needs lots of pics to make one of these right. Seems 1/2 love brine and swear by it, other 1/2 does it wrong and throws in towel. I really appreciate all that post good pics, and offer up their real world experience. Very helpful. Thanks!


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## Broncslefty7

pre treated walks this morning.

An account that normally took 2 bags of ice melt took 4 gallons of brine with 20% ibg magic in it. Cost of 2 bags of ice melt is $15.00. COst of 4 gallons of sidewalk mix brine is $1.72

so there is some cost savings.


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## rick W

Anyone care to share pics and specs of a home made electric sidewalk sprayer? 
Looking for something with 10 gal approx, on cart with pump and one or two nozzles. Cant see paying $800 for a factory unit. Lets see them and are you happy?


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## Broncslefty7

yeah $800.00 is a lot i said the same thing, and ended up buying backpack sprayers that hold 4 gallons.


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## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7 said:


> pre treated walks this morning.
> 
> An account that normally took 2 bags of ice melt took 4 gallons of brine with 20% ibg magic in it. Cost of 2 bags of ice melt is $15.00. COst of 4 gallons of sidewalk mix brine is $1.72
> 
> so there is some cost savings.


Glad to hear you are moving forward with liquids and giving IBG a try after last seasons conversations, keep up the good work.


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## John_DeereGreen

I keep telling myself I'm going to start experimenting with liquids, but every time I start to add up the costs of everything to start and then I tell myself it's not worth the expense just to experiment.


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## dodgegmc1213

Trying IBG for myself this year, built my own system, took my dad's 325 tank, had a Honda Motor laying around so bought a banjo pump to add to it, still have to add the recirculation hose, using a 1inch electric ball valve we also had laying around, had a 3/4" spray bar from last year I'm going to use, I cut it down a little and added 2 45* side pieces so it sprays out


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## Broncslefty7

i have a shot at getting a FREE 6000 gallon fiber glass tank. home owner used it for oil, then switched to gas a few months later. they had it steam cleaned etc. etc. can you put brine in a fiber glass tank?


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## rick W

Broncslefty7 said:


> i have a shot at getting a FREE 6000 gallon fiber glass tank. home owner used it for oil, then switched to gas a few months later. they had it steam cleaned etc. etc. can you put brine in a fiber glass tank?


6000 gal fiberglass tank! That is HUGE and would be really really heavy no? We have a 400gal glass lawn sprayer tank...she is super heavy.


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## Broncslefty7

^^ Thats what i was thinking. but then again, its free and tanks are not cheap.


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## Broncslefty7

i was thinking i probly wouldnt need to move it once we set it. i have a forklift that will lift 6k lbs. and if that doesnt work, i have my cat 272.


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## Broncslefty7

so the sidewalk mix worked pretty well, we only got a dusting but all the areas where brine where applied where wet this morning. im not sure if you can take wind chill into account but it was 27 degrees and blowing about 35 mph, felt like 0 to me. Also when you are making brine i know that temperature of the brine matters when reading a Hydrometer. does anyone have any insight to this? Also how long can you let brine sit in a holding tank before you start having issues? i have been turning our system on about once a week for 10-15 minutes just in case.


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## 86 CJ

Glad to see more guys venturing with some builds and stepping into liquids. It was 64 degrees last Friday, so we spent a day at the shop running our first round of Brine this season
























We got about 3000g made up, not a bad start, but will be making more next week, temps are dropping and making brine when it's 40 outside is not that fun  Here are some pics I took of the work day, no beauty queen, but she gets the job done. We just moved Brine Maker and need to cut hoses down and clean somethings up from last season, but wanted to see it run with 3" pumps this year.


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## Broncslefty7

Nice De ice. i know that bulk is way cheaper but for our first batch i bought bags so we would be spot on with numbers. i do not know how much salt our skid steer bucket holds, do you just go bucket by bucket and add water as needed?


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## rick W

Just my thought....on figuring it out as i have no plans to use any expensive bagged salt for brine...
1. Get a five gallon pail and fill it until you get say...50 or 75lbs. easy to do with a bathroom scale. Put a marker line on that... and say its 50 lbs, hand bomb 10 or 20 pails into bobcat...basically seeing how many pails fit...say 20 pails fit...ok, simple. 20x50bs...that scoop at that level is 1000 lbs or close enough. Now its simple and i will never need scales again...i know how much weight fits so my brine recipe is easy to follow. Just my plan but never did it before...so....stand back.


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## Broncslefty7

yeah, our recipe calls for 1100 lbs on the button.


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## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7 said:


> Nice De ice. i know that bulk is way cheaper but for our first batch i bought bags so we would be spot on with numbers. i do not know how much salt our skid steer bucket holds, do you just go bucket by bucket and add water as needed?


Thanks Bronc

Yes, we used bagged salt our first year of brine making with our smaller brine maker as well and got the job done, was just more work and harder on the body :weightlifter:. We then picked up our CASE 2 season ago and decided to go bigger last season and its been working out nice.

We did simple math and loaded 50lb bags into the CASE bucket to see where we got to where we needed, now we use about 2 full buckets to 750g water in the Brine maker and come out close, then might have to add a bag to get to the magic number between 22 and 24 on the Hydrometer depending on water temps.


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## Broncslefty7

what does your hydrometer read after adding the magic? id assume it will be over 23.3


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## 86 CJ

Probably, but now you are trying to read multiple chlorides etc.

We use a salt Hydrometer for Brine and a different one as well for measuring our calcium. That's why you really should always make liquids separately , then mix in percentages of what product you want to use in your brine afterwards.


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## Broncslefty7

**** i didnt know we need a calcium hydrometer.

we mixed everything seperate based off of our numbers. 3.25 lbs of calcium per gallon of water etc etc.


----------



## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7 said:


> **** i didnt know we need a calcium hydrometer.
> 
> we mixed everything seperate based off of our numbers. 3.25 lbs of calcium per gallon of water etc etc.


I would get yourself one and make sure you are at 32 percent or you could be dealing with a mess:hammerhead:


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## 86 CJ

https://www.amazon.com/B61809-0300-...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=JDFXZFDH0RM4HKP3C0WS


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## Broncslefty7

good lookin out.


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## plowin-fire

Can we use treated salts for salt brine making? Just a thought since we are mixing plain salt and then adding mag/cal chloride later if this would save a step. Have a vendor that insists I try IBG magic. Can get in liquid form or treated salt version.


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## 86 CJ

I would not recommend it. The problem is that you have no idea what each products saturation or salinity # would be at and would risk any of the products or Chloride's getting out of suspension, which could possibly cause re-freezing or a mess on your hands in a parking lot. Each dry product needs to be converted to liquids independently on its own, tested for the correct Salinity, then added together as needed at correct percentages.


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## plowin-fire

Kinda what I figured. Anyone use IBG magic to mix in? Kinda spendy stuff. $4 per gallon.


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## Broncslefty7

thats crazy expensive. rite now i am adding IBG magic to my brine at 80% brine 20% magic. i am paying 2.75 a gallon. my normal brine cost rite around 12 cents to make and adding the ibg magic brings that up to .42 cents.


----------



## plowin-fire

Broncslefty7 said:


> thats crazy expensive. rite now i am adding IBG magic to my brine at 80% brine 20% magic. i am paying 2.75 a gallon. my normal brine cost rite around 12 cents to make and adding the ibg magic brings that up to .42 cents.


What quantity do you buy that in? This one per 275 gal tote. Or $1100 per tote. Can get RoadGuard +8 for $2.25 a gal.


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## Broncslefty7

i have been buying in 55 gal. drums.


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## rick W

Dumb brine question of the day.....

So, just getting all geared up to make brine with a kubota style tote system...but did a budget 5 gal pail of water, with salt added test today. Never ever done brine ... so learning curve here, be patient.
Anyway, put salt in pail, stirred with a pole,and tested...16%, added more salt...23%...added more salt...23% and granular product on bottom of pail...stirred some more...26%...but seemed to quickly drop to 23%

Now..i was busy talking to girls in chemistry..soooooo.
Is it this simple...23% is basically the saturation level...in effect you just mix until that point, and ensure enough salt...but if you goof and have too much salt it will settle out quickly reverting to the 23% with product settling to bottom of tank...but brine will stay suspended at 23% and not settle out? This seemed way to simple.... am i missing something or is making brine really that simple? Keep mixing till you hit 23 and if you go over...let is sit an hour and just suck off the top 90%, and make another batch with the salt on the bottom?


----------



## VS Innovation

mike_dmt said:


> For parking lots, I use a 2" gas powered pump, and shoot for 9gpm. No GPS, just watch the speedo like a hawk.
> 
> My nozzles are a little closer together than the calc sheet, so I'm probably closer to 10gpm. That lets me apply right around 55-60gpa, at 10mph..
> 
> That also will give me a decently wide spray pattern with the single on, more when I turn on the second. Closer to 13-14 feet wide, and 14gpm, give or take. .
> 
> New setup should be done next week. Just in time, from the looks of it.
> 
> I'll post some build pics if you guys want.


Good work man, Sounds like you are on the right track!

Watching the speedo closely works just fine, it is what we did our first couple years in liquid.. The reason we run the GPS rate control system on all of our sprayers now is because I have many employees out applying, and the margin of error with that many different guys out and that many trucks means that the GPS rate control systems pay for themselves in less than one season on material alone, not to mention the peace of mind that i can send out almost anyone to apply and it will be applied at the correct rate. The systems last for many years as well.. Our local DOT division runs the same controllers and some of the same flow meters we do, and they report little to no issue, especially with the magnetic flow meters. The turbine style flow meters are more susceptible to going out of calibration or bombing out all together if your brine has any sand or grit in it (most road salt contains these things). Would highly recommend a mag flow meter for brine for anyone out there!
It is also more efficient for us because we are doing many commercial lots that are busy during the day, so slowing down and speeding up regularly is required with pedestrians and traffic. 
After switching to a GPS rate control system, we would never go back to a constant speed based system or even a pressure based system. The simplicity and fool proof nature of the rate control system is fantastic.



Broncslefty7 said:


> i have a shot at getting a FREE 6000 gallon fiber glass tank. home owner used it for oil, then switched to gas a few months later. they had it steam cleaned etc. etc. can you put brine in a fiber glass tank?


Nice! Snatch that thing up, having proper storage is a major component of success in liquid.. When guys try to do liquid and don't have enough storage, they often fail. Why? Because either they don't use the correct volume, for fear of running out.. OR they end up having to make brine during snowfall, which is often stressful, annoying and impractical. At that point they say "it's easier to just load up salt". 
Making brine on down days and storing it for the next storm is THE way to do it. 
I like to keep a bulk storage for brine, enough for 2.5 snow events (in case they come back to back or are really bad ones), and bulk storage for calcium chloride, enough to hold a tanker load (4000 gallons) so i can get the best pricing.. 
Otherwise, before i was doing enough volume to do tanker loads of Road Guard 8, i bought it in IBC totes. Most IBC totes have camlock fittings on them so you can plumb them right into your system to draw from them, which is easier and faster than using a hand or electric pump on a barrel. 
The system we have now is all plumbed underground to our outdoor storage. A 3" line for our brine and a 2" line for our calcium chloride. Each line has electronic flow meters on them so we know exactly how much we mixing in and using (and also so we have accurate data for the people we sell brine to). 
This then is all plumbed into our brine maker which is in our shop. That way, the brine maker acts as the central fill station. It makes the brine and pumps it out to the tanks when it is mixed. When its time to fill a sprayer, we flip a valve and the electric pump on the brine maker sucks from the holding tanks and fills the sprayer. All in the warmth of the shop and without any loud gas pumps. 
It takes some time to get set up that way, but once you get there, its not only easier than salt, its still cheaper and more effective!



John_DeereGreen said:


> I keep telling myself I'm going to start experimenting with liquids, but every time I start to add up the costs of everything to start and then I tell myself it's not worth the expense just to experiment.


It is not expensive to experiment! A couple IBC totes (can be bought on craigslist for $50 or less usually), a couple gas pumps ($250 ea or less), some PVC and misc parts, and you can make your own brine and apply it to try liquid on your own! Feel free to post any questions or PM me if you want, i would be happy to help.



dodgegmc1213 said:


> Trying IBG for myself this year, built my own system, took my dad's 325 tank, had a Honda Motor laying around so bought a banjo pump to add to it, still have to add the recirculation hose, using a 1inch electric ball valve we also had laying around, had a 3/4" spray bar from last year I'm going to use, I cut it down a little and added 2 45* side pieces so it sprays out
> View attachment 167756


Looks good! Let us know if you have any other questions about using liquid, you won't regret it!


----------



## VS Innovation

rick W said:


> Dumb brine question of the day.....
> 
> So, just getting all geared up to make brine with a kubota style tote system...but did a budget 5 gal pail of water, with salt added test today. Never ever done brine ... so learning curve here, be patient.
> Anyway, put salt in pail, stirred with a pole,and tested...16%, added more salt...23%...added more salt...23% and granular product on bottom of pail...stirred some more...26%...but seemed to quickly drop to 23%
> 
> Now..i was busy talking to girls in chemistry..soooooo.
> Is it this simple...23% is basically the saturation level...in effect you just mix until that point, and ensure enough salt...but if you goof and have too much salt it will settle out quickly reverting to the 23% with product settling to bottom of tank...but brine will stay suspended at 23% and not settle out? This seemed way to simple.... am i missing something or is making brine really that simple? Keep mixing till you hit 23 and if you go over...let is sit an hour and just suck off the top 90%, and make another batch with the salt on the bottom?


On the right track, but your results sound a bit odd.. Yes salt will fall out of suspension, but 100% satuaration is at 26.4% salt brine. Reaching this level is nearly impossible, and as odd as it sounds, this saturation level of brine actually freezes at 60*F, but again, it is not achievable with these type agitation systems. 
26.3% salt brine has a freezing temperature of 32*F, just like water. So you do NOT want your brine even close to full saturation.
Ideal salt brine is mixed at 88.3% saturation, which is 23.3% salt brine, and has a freezing point of -6*F.

It is vital not to mix your brine at to high of a saturation level, you are better off a bit low than high. When properly mixed, I have never found it to fall out of solution.

I am wondering if your results are skewed due to a small sample size with mechanical agitation. Maybe the suspended salt granuals somehow were throwing it off even though they were not dissolved yet.. Or maybe the presence of that much extra salt at the bottom of the pail somehow pulls excess out of suspension? I am really not sure, I haven't experienced anything like that.
What hydrometer are you using?


----------



## VS Innovation

As for using anything but pure salt for brine.. Not a good idea! 
One of the reasons liquid gets a bad name is because people mix it wrong and it freezes or just doesn't perform well. There is no easy way to know where your mix or saturation levels are at when using treated salt, mixed ice melt, etc.. 
Mix salt brine to 23.3% and mix calcium chloride to 32%. From there, mix the 2 to make your spiked mix. 

If you are in the US and paying more than $3 a gallon for calcium chloride, contact me, i can connect you with the right people.. I had a guy who was paying $5 a gallon by the drum, when he had a distributor 3 miles down the road selling in bulk for 90 cents per gallon for the same stuff.. Obviously that is an extreme case, but most of the time, better pricing is available. 

If you are located in MN, WI, SD, ND or MI, Road Guard 8 is made just north of the border in canada and is a phenomenal product. I can get it by the tanker load in southern MN for $1.60 a gallon delivered. I can get a more basic product with the corrosion inhibitors but no molasses for less than $1 per gallon by the tanker load.


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## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> i was thinking i probly wouldnt need to move it once we set it. i have a forklift that will lift 6k lbs. and if that doesnt work, i have my cat 272.


That tank is heavy im sure, but i would be surprised if it is more than 1500 lbs.


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## Broncslefty7

its really simple as long as you can measure your saturation's and know the formula. but dont tell anyone because we wont be able to sell brine to our competitors...


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## Broncslefty7

you can also get a Total dissolved solids meter. water can only break down so many chemicals. once your TDS is too high those chemicals start to fall out of solution. with our salt brine 70%, our calcium brine 10%, and 20% ibg magic we are at 6200 PPM TDS.


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## John_DeereGreen

I'd like to see a few pictures of your brine maker and storage system VS.

Our shop would be set up perfectly to have literally tens of thousands of gallons in storage out back and be in the comfort of the shop making brine.

How big of an electric motor does it take to run a brine maker?

I'd like to see a price sheet of your systems if you can too... [email protected]


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## Broncslefty7

we use a 1 1/2 HP hayward Super pump. it makes about 800 gallons in 30-40 minutes.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Broncslefty7 said:


> we use a 1 1/2 HP hayward Super pump. it makes about 800 gallons in 30-40 minutes.


I never thought about a pool pump that's a good idea.

A lot cheaper than the alternative options. Cheapest electric chemical pump I've seen is 500 or so.


----------



## VS Innovation

We use dual 220v 5hp baldor sealed motors mated to banjo poly pumps. It's way overkill, but we can make a 2000 gallon batch of brine in less than 10 minutes. The main reason for the "excessive" pump power is that we use our agitation pumps to pump out our finished batches to our holding tanks and also use them to fill our sprayers.. our old system we used a single 3hp motor with a 1.5" stainless high pressure pump to mix our brine and fill our sprayers. But the 90gpm fill rate was a killer on productivity, especially when filling our larger 1000 and 2700 gallon sprayers. The labor and time wasted guys standing around waiting for those sprayers to fill with that flow rate was significant. Now we push 425+ gallons per minute and the large pumps will pay for themselves in a single season. I'm an efficiency nut!
Keep in mind also we expect to use over 100,000 gallons this year. This is not nearly as vital with the lower volumes a lot of guys are running.

John Deere, I'll email some info to you!


----------



## plowin-fire

John_DeereGreen said:


> I never thought about a pool pump that's a good idea.
> 
> A lot cheaper than the alternative options. Cheapest electric chemical pump I've seen is 500 or so.


How long have you used the Hayward pump? Considerably cheaper than an electric motor and chemical pump I see. Not quite the flow of a gas engine pump but close. Can get the 2hp one on amazon for 430 shipped. Just wondering on longevity when using in cold temps.


----------



## Broncslefty7

cold temps it works fine, longevity should not be an issue we have them on swimming pools for 8-10 years. the chemical concentration isnt the same as dealing with brine but it is still pretty high, and the only part that can go bad is the seal. those cost 6 dollars. if you get 1 1/2 hp you can run it on 110v i think 2 hp you need 230v


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## Broncslefty7

i paid 237.00 for our 1 1/2 through distribution


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## plowin-fire

Genius. Then you have a built in filter as well.


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## Broncslefty7

I do not. I figured it would filter out the salt particulates. They are generally 15 microns and pool filter go down to about 5 microns. Make sure you don't get the above ground pump.


----------



## Broncslefty7

I'll send you some pics on our unit tomorrow or Monday.


----------



## plowin-fire

Broncslefty7 said:


> I'll send you some pics on our unit tomorrow or Monday.


Sweet thanks. Got a 2 hp super pump for 360 shipped.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Do you have a link for the one you're using or a manufacturers part number?


----------



## plowin-fire

https://www.vminnovations.com/Product_9151/Hayward-SP2615X20-Super-Pump-Swimming-Pool-2-HP.html


----------



## plowin-fire

VS Innovation said:


> Our local DOT division runs the same controllers and some of the same flow meters we do, and they report little to no issue, especially with the magnetic flow meters. The turbine style flow meters are more susceptible to going out of calibration or bombing out all together if your brine has any sand or grit in it (most road salt contains these things). Would highly recommend a mag flow meter for brine for anyone out there!


How many gpm flow meter are you using? Those magnetic meters are spendy! Have a link to the ones you use that are compatible with the spraymate 2 system?


----------



## Broncslefty7

they are pricey but I would think they are worth it


----------



## plowin-fire

Can buy the turbine style and rebuild it 6 times compared to one mag meter. We use turbine meters on our sprayers and NH3 units on the farm and havent had a failure. Different application though. Have a 5" mag meter on the manure tank, those are $5000..


----------



## hickslawns

Been kicking this around too long. Have yet to start on it. Shame on me. Been reading for several years. It is time to act. We are in a conservative area which is not often receptive to change. IF I start this up I will need to do lots of communicating with customers. It WILL be a difficult sale. 

In the decision making stages: Build my own or buy one prefabbed? 

Questions: Storage? It appears some of you store outside. No issues with product freezing? 
EPA concerns? Are there any? I would think it is safer than storing 100ton of bulk salt. . . . ???

I have a well and outside yard hydrant. I would need to pre-mix when weather allows. Eventually, I'd probably need a better setup such as a dedicated line to the shop to fill. So many variables. So many thoughts and questions. Deer gun season starts tomorrow so I have a feeling I will be putting this off another week. lol


----------



## hickslawns

Other thoughts:

We have many storms beginning with rain and turning to snow. Won't these wash off the pre-treat?

As the snow/ice melts, does this reduce the effectiveness of the applied mix?

What about parking lots which are like a washboard? They have water pooling in large areas or in numerous small puddles. No fear of refreeze here?


----------



## Broncslefty7

yes any rain will wash the brine away, just like it will do with salt.


----------



## Broncslefty7

De-ICE have you had any issues with refreeze. say your post treating and melt off some hard pack, have you had any issues with your IBG being watered down and refreezing?


----------



## VS Innovation

plowin-fire said:


> How many gpm flow meter are you using? Those magnetic meters are spendy! Have a link to the ones you use that are compatible with the spraymate 2 system?


It depends on the application, for our single lane boom units we use a 1" with a flow rate range of 2 to 48 gallons per minute.
For our 3 land boom applications we use a 2" with a flow rate range of 4 to 90 gpm. These are custom calibrated for us, they are not available in those ranges from the manufacturer we use. They are compatible with our MicroTrak controllers, we don't use the spraymate II anymore, we have a custom solution that is based on the spraymate plus, but has some added features and settings, a custom wiring harness, as well as settings lockouts, as most people in liquid de-icing do not need to be messing with a majority of the controller settings, besides Gallons Per Acre.



plowin-fire said:


> Can buy the turbine style and rebuild it 6 times compared to one mag meter. We use turbine meters on our sprayers and NH3 units on the farm and havent had a failure. Different application though. Have a 5" mag meter on the manure tank, those are $5000..


Advantage #1 on mag meters is that the density of the liquid does not effect calibration.. Technically, if you want to apply accurately, you need to adjust your flow calibration settings depending on the % of calcium chloride in your mix. With mag meters you set it and forget it, regardless of what you are spraying.

We did extensive durability testing on turbine flow meters, and for us, they aren't worth it.. Yes, you can rebuild them multiple times for the same money as a mag meter, but if you have 1 night of downtime with a piece of de-icing equipment, that up front cost savings could be more than wiped out. De-icing isn't like farming, where in most cases if your sprayer goes down it is during the day or it can easily wait until tomorrow, whereas if your commercial account opens at 7am and your de-icing sprayer goes down at 6am, you are going to have a very unhappy customer or be at risk for a slip and fall. You can't just go to walmart and buy a new flowmeter quickly in that situation, and quite honestly, most guys are not going to go to the work to rebuild a flow meter. 
We tried filtration in multiple stages, and the amount of time spend cleaning and unclogging filters certainly was not worth the hassle. 
Now we just run mag meters and have a single 30 mesh filter(strainer)on our brine fill line and an additional one on our sprayers to make sure no large debris hurts our pumps or plug our booms. These almost never plug and rarely need to be cleaned out.

Brine is a filthy product, because most guys are using road salt or pit run salt, and that contains 8% or usually more dirt, sand, silica, etc.. Those things are REALLY hard on turbine flow meters, ESPECIALLY with the volumes we run for de-icing, compared to typical ag use where lower volumes are being used.

We tested MicroTrak, Raven, Orion, and a couple other brands, i honestly don't remember.. And they all held up about the same. After just 5000 gallons of brine all of the flow meters, while still working, were off by 20% or more. One 2" Raven made it past 50,000 gallons before a bearing siezed, but by that time it was out of cal by more than 60%. Maybe the salt we use is worse than anyone else. I suppose with bagged salt, there would be little issue with turbine flow meters.

We are still testing different methods of filtration and testing turbine flow meters to see if we can get anything to work, but we are not far off from just giving that up all together and only offering mag meters.

We still offer turbine flow meters as a NOT RECOMMENDED option on our sprayers.. But we will not warranty them. It saves $850 on the 1" models and only $600 on the 2" models.. I we have only sold 3 units with that downgrade this year, so i would say the public agrees that it isn't worth the hassle and/or risk of downtime or inaccuracy.

Let me know if your findings are different! I would love if we could make turbine flow meters work, but i just don't think it is the answer with brine.


----------



## VS Innovation

Orion makes the magnetic flow meters for Micro Trak that we use with our controllers.


----------



## VS Innovation

hickslawns said:


> Been kicking this around too long. Have yet to start on it. Shame on me. Been reading for several years. It is time to act. We are in a conservative area which is not often receptive to change. IF I start this up I will need to do lots of communicating with customers. It WILL be a difficult sale.
> 
> In the decision making stages: Build my own or buy one prefabbed?
> 
> Questions: Storage? It appears some of you store outside. No issues with product freezing?
> EPA concerns? Are there any? I would think it is safer than storing 100ton of bulk salt. . . . ???
> 
> I have a well and outside yard hydrant. I would need to pre-mix when weather allows. Eventually, I'd probably need a better setup such as a dedicated line to the shop to fill. So many variables. So many thoughts and questions. Deer gun season starts tomorrow so I have a feeling I will be putting this off another week. lol


Get it done man! You won't regret it..

Its an easy sell when you sell the right points. Look back in this thread, i have summarized lists of selling points we use for our potential customers. All of our existing customers would now be incredibly upset if we went away from liquid, because they have now seen and experienced the advantages. 
Even if you are buying your brine from someone else to start, you should be able to charge the same for liquid as you would for salt. As your customers realize the advantage, you can raise your pricing. Even better, at that point you start making your own brine, lower your input costs, and raise prices at the same time!

Otherwise, do what I did with a few of my "old school" customers. When i renewed their contracts the next year, i simply gave them a "de-ice parking lot" price and a "de-ice sidewalks" price, i made no mention of how we would achieve it. By the time they could even consider calling with concern, their lots were melted off, so they didn't bother.

Salt brine is not a regulated liquid for bulk storage for the EPA or in any state I have found. Certainly not in MN, and we are one of the most heavily regulated states for bulk storage due to our large quantity lakes and rivers and liberal state government.

We store ours outside in MN, when properly mixed salt brine has a freeze temp of -6*F, for large tanks of liquid to get that cold, it would take a very long cold snap. Never has happened to us in southern MN. If anything, your climate in NW OH is warmer than ours. 
However, if you are really concerned about it, a 5% spike with calcium chloride will ensure you never have any issues with storage freezing.

We are on a well at one of our shops, we only get about 12 GPM out of 1" line, or 7GPM out of a garden hose, but we have Hudson fill stop valves on our fill system, so we just turn on the hose and forget about it. The Hudson valves shut off the water when the unit is full so we can mix. We have enough storage on site where our low fill rate doesn't hurt us.

Good luck with Deer hunting! I hunt in Northern MN and the wolves have really thinned out the deer population here, so not much luck the past couple years unfortunately..


----------



## hickslawns

Thank you VS. Our herd is down in Ohio but our wolves are the ODNR. I'm done. This is an entirely different thread which could go on and on and on. haha

I did have an email typed up. I replied to the one you had sent. It came back to me as undeliverable. If you could PM me your email I will try again. You could also text it to me at 4192339339. Thanks!


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> De-ICE have you had any issues with refreeze. say your post treating and melt off some hard pack, have you had any issues with your IBG being watered down and refreezing?


We have not had issues with this, but with heavy pack we tend to overapply a bit to be safe, 100-120 gallons per acre or so.. we have found little to no issues with refreeze when using brine spiked with road guard 8.



hickslawns said:


> Thank you VS. Our herd is down in Ohio but our wolves are the ODNR. I'm done. This is an entirely different thread which could go on and on and on. haha
> 
> I did have an email typed up. I replied to the one you had sent. It came back to me as undeliverable. If you could PM me your email I will try again. You could also text it to me at 4192339339. Thanks!


Our wolf issues are MN DNR related also.. they over protected wolves for too long, and now they are taking over. The DNR is doing lottery for wolf tags the past two years, but not nearly enough from what I can tell.


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## Broncslefty7

the brine did a nice job burning off an inch that we are currently getting. woke up this morning to check everything with about 3/4 of an inch down already and all the walks were nice and wet.


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## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7 said:


> De-ICE have you had any issues with refreeze. say your post treating and melt off some hard pack, have you had any issues with your IBG being watered down and refreezing?


Yes, all depends on when we treat and what the temps are at the time. If we have a cold storm where wind chills are getting close to 0-10 degrees, and we plow at night then treat, there has been times where we had areas puddle up and refreeze by open business in the morning. This is only where we go straight to our salt treated with concentrated IBG at night a call it a day, no refreeze issues. It's rare her in MD, but we are starting to see a bit more of that with the weather pattern and wind changes these days.


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## winterwonderland

Entry the Non Chloride Liquid deicer. 
http://www.synateksolutions.com/entry-12-16/


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## winterwonderland

post treat after shoveling. 23 degrees real feel 17 Scranton Pa 12/11/2016


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## winterwonderland




----------



## winterwonderland




----------



## Broncslefty7

alright so back to not selling product....

got a random squall this morning, about 1/2, first picture is 30 seconds later the 2nd picture is two minutes later. this is the brine with the 15% IBG and no calcium. it is 22 degrees out.


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## Broncslefty7

im thinking calcium only needs to be added to your mix if its going to be below 10 degrees. what do you think DE-ICE?


----------



## Plow_King3131

I am totally new to spraying. I have ALOT of questions: 

Do you flush after every application?
How effective is spraying after plowing?
What application rates are you guys using?
Why did you switch to spraying?

I need help in convincing my boss the benefits. He is old school and hard to persuade. Any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## winterwonderland

I would agree on that statement broncslefty7. You really need to test your mix and different temps to see when it becomes ineffective. Whatever temp that ends up being, mix in your calcium or low temperature additive from there. No need to add it if temps are above 10 or so.


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## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7 said:


> im thinking calcium only needs to be added to your mix if its going to be below 10 degrees. what do you think DE-ICE?


Good pics to show the liquid working Bronc.

Just remember with IBG used as a Post treatment, don't use to much or you will start seeing tracking and possible some slickness because of the Mag in it, just use enough to start melting process when needed. We use mostly our Calcium Hot Brine to post treat, its burns through the packed snow better and its much cheaper to make and spray.

Don't recommend mixing in Calcium with the IBG, per the owner of the company, it will actually not work as well because the make up of the IBG and the added calcium with break each other down. Stick with one blend or the other....


----------



## 86 CJ

Plow_King3131 said:


> I am totally new to spraying. I have ALOT of questions:
> 
> Do you flush after every application?
> How effective is spraying after plowing?
> What application rates are you guys using?
> Why did you switch to spraying?
> 
> I need help in convincing my boss the benefits. He is old school and hard to persuade. Any help is greatly appreciated.


Plow King, start reading through all of this post and the ones in the ICE Management catagory on Liquids and you will get your answers to your questions form a handful of us on here that were at your exact time frame with liquids years ago


----------



## 86 CJ

Here are some pics of our latest truck build, we are 95% done on the truck, but took it out the other night and tested it out on some pre-treating before a small Ice storm that hit us Near Baltimore Sat morning.

We just bought some Boomless nozzles to try out from Dave at VSI and they worked out great, loved the coverage off the side of the truck for pre-treating Thumbs Up We are now contemplating adding one to the center boom for better coverage over the T jets.

Ground temps were well below freezing and it was in the 20s when we treated at midnight and he had freezing rain and Ice pellets hit for a bit in the morning. I think we were only at %15 on our IBG/Brine mix and the accounts we treated at midnight were 90% wet at 9:30 am at 31 degrees and our accounts that did not want pre-treatment were glazed over with ice and ended up calling us in the morning to come treat. 
So next time I think they might listen to us a little better


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## Broncslefty7

we are slinging liquids to other contractors now, not only is it half the price of ice melt and rock salt, you get wayyy better results.


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## Plow_King3131

86 CJ said:


> Plow King, start reading through all of this post and the ones in the ICE Management catagory on Liquids and you will get your answers to your questions form a handful of us on here that were at your exact time frame with liquids years ago


Thanks for the advice. I am excited to try and get more liquid use in our operation.


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## winterwonderland

86 CJ, How does the Earthway walk behind work for your liquids on side walks?


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## 86 CJ

winterwonderland said:


> 86 CJ, How does the Earthway walk behind work for your liquids on side walks?


We have the S25 6.6 gal model and like it a lot. I am about to order another one. Second season using it and it out performs the backpack sprayers and is an easy in between them and the truck hoses off the pumps. There is no electrical/Battery and pumps to worry about, so if you take care of them, should last you a couple seasons and get the job done for pre-treating and post treating. Two passes on the walks (up/Back) usually gets the right amount of liquids down to work, has adjustable height T-jet nozzles on it as well. There are a bunch of others out there up to $1000, but Happy with investing in this one...


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## winterwonderland

86 CJ, I have used them in the past but had problems with them slipping. It sounds like Earthway may have addressed that in their newer models. I have 4 Brand new ones in the box that I will sell you at cost if you are looking for more.


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## rick W

winterwonderland said:


> 86 CJ, I have used them in the past but had problems with them slipping. It sounds like Earthway may have addressed that in their newer models. I have 4 Brand new ones in the box that I will sell you at cost if you are looking for more.


Mind if i ask what the price is? 
Finding easy ways to apply liquids to walks is difficult. We use a atv sprayer and that works well but cant leave it on site (it would disappear) and other than big snow events...dont bother floating it in. A nice portable sprayer (at good price) in a pick up with a few jugs of fluid would be ideal.


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## Broncslefty7

we use 4 gallon back pack sprayers that work well, 56 dollars at home depot or 27 at harbor freight, we priced out the push behind ones and they where like 6-7 hundred.


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## winterwonderland

I will ship the Earthway S25 Spray Pro Anywhere in the US for $400.00
I also have the Earthway S15 Spray Pro Anywhere in the US for $300.00 
Check out www.synatekicemelt.com we have a lot products and equipment on there. We have a battery powered pressurized hand can called a green gorilla that does an amazing job spraying liquids. It is a cool product.


----------



## fiveothis

Thanks guys for all the info on winter liquids here. Newbie to liquid and I just need a little clarification. 

Asking about specific gravity of salt brine. Sodium chloride itself should be 1.175, correct?

And Calcium chloride itself should be 1.322?

Thanks


----------



## rick W

Calcium chloride questions Cant find liquid anywhere reasonable to buy so likely going to just dummy it down and source some bags of dow flake for this year. I know its not pure, and i have a cal chloride hydrometer so....my question is this.

I am just going to make up 1-300 gal of cal chloride brine to spike my salt brine with. Do i just fill a tank with water, dump in some bags and mix/recirculate until the flake is dissolved and keep adding powder until i hit the 32%, pump to a storage tank and add 10% of that mix to my salt brine when its nasty cold. That simple? Thanks.


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## 86 CJ

Your on the right track

Fill your tank with 256g water then slowly add 1170lbs of calcium and mix until desolved and at 32% to get to 300g. Simple as that Take your time Calcium gets Very HOT when mixing...

Then store in seperate tank and mix in 10-15% as needed.


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## winterwonderland

Can't overstate this enough. It gets very hot roughly 140 degrees almost instantly. Good luck and be careful.


----------



## dodgegmc1213

I ended up making a new spray bar, and thanks to Dave from VSI, I ordered a gps system.
Looks really fun to install


----------



## rick W

86 CJ said:


> Your on the right track
> 
> Fill your tank with 256g water then slowly add 1170lbs of calcium and mix until desolved and at 32% to get to 300g. Simple as that Take your time Calcium gets Very HOT when mixing...
> 
> Then store in seperate tank and mix in 10-15% as needed.


Can you clarify that.... 256 gall of water....and almost 1200lbs of calcium?? Really that much? Thats a typo right.


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## 86 CJ

lol Nope not a typo, actually almost 98% accurate info. We have been doing this for a couple years now  To get to your 32% that is what you will need give or take a couple lbs depending on what exact brand of Calcium you are using to mix.


----------



## 86 CJ

dodgegmc1213 said:


> I ended up making a new spray bar, and thanks to Dave from VSI, I ordered a gps system.
> Looks really fun to install
> View attachment 169126
> View attachment 169127


Dodge, system looks good and very similar to how our 450 Superduty we built for last season. Depending if you are only pre-treating or also post treating you might run into an issue on the gap you are leaving between the side nozzles. We were using barbed nozzles and when post treating it was only digging down in certain areas and there was not enough coverage in between nozzles, so was leaving a large area of snow/packed ice behind. We have switched to boom busters on the sides of our new build now and have not tested on post treating(still waiting on first storm) but the coverage is awesome on pre-treating.


----------



## rick W

+


86 CJ said:


> We were using barbed nozzles and when post treating it was only digging down in certain areas and there was not enough coverage in between nozzles, so was leaving a large area of snow/packed ice behind. We have switched to boom busters on the sides of our new build now and have not tested on post treating(still waiting on first storm) but the coverage is awesome on pre-treating.


Can you clarify the part, or brand or a pic? We just built our first spray bar and love the t jets on the main boom but the two side nozzles (just ordered what someone else suggested) seem to shoot nicely way out the sides....but put WAY too much product out the sides. Looking for better choice to get 2-10' out each side of truck. Thanks.


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## dodgegmc1213

86 CJ said:


> Dodge, system looks good and very similar to how our 450 Superduty we built for last season. Depending if you are only pre-treating or also post treating you might run into an issue on the gap you are leaving between the side nozzles. We were using barbed nozzles and when post treating it was only digging down in certain areas and there was not enough coverage in between nozzles, so was leaving a large area of snow/packed ice behind. We have switched to boom busters on the sides of our new build now and have not tested on post treating(still waiting on first storm) but the coverage is awesome on pre-treating.


Thanks 86 CJ, yeah I have to do something different I don't know what, the picture here, I have 2 holes drilled on the side parts, they hit each other and spray in the same area, (see the red circle) you can see these 2 sprays were off an inch or so but yet very close, as on the left side its the same....(see the yellow circle) this drilled hole is on the curve of the 90 degree elbow so I don't think that's bad. so the only thing I can think of is drill the side ones on an angle....next year will be different, I got plans already lol


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## jbovara

Hello all, I am looking for some honest advice and straight forward answers on the subject at hand. Don't mean to hi-jack but my main question revolves around liquids. A little background first. I am small time but, by no means a "low-baller". I have a small operation with only 2 trucks both f-350 SRW pick-ups and currently have one tail gate spreader. The majority of my business is residential driveways with only a few small commercial accounts. All my commercial accounts are 1" triggers and all are salted after plowing. All commercial contracts are set up "x" per salt application and "y" per plow based on amount of snow on the ground at the time of plow. If snow fall is 1" or less, or forecast ed 1"-3" I start spreading salt as soon as the snow starts to fall during hours of operation. Once that first application of salt is spread other services to follow as needed. I am no longer taking any single family residential driveways until I build up more commercial business. I have no yard and no means of mixing liquids my self so all liquids would have to be purchased pre- mixed. I use a tail gate spreader because the salt is easy to store in my garage on pallets and if I run out I just drive back home and reload. So based on my research it seems that liquids are cheaper per gallon per acre than salt per ton per acre, is this correct? If liquids are less expensive I can pass the savings on to the customer to help gain more business is this correct and a good idea? I am going to buy the biggest v-box salt spreader or the biggest spray tank, without exceeding weight limits, which is about 3800lbs, to put on one of the f-350's. Will the v-box be able to cover more acres or will the spray tank cover more acres? I will be purchasing the liquids or the salt to go into the v-box from a vendor during business hours prior to the actual event and I am thinking the liquid will store better and I will not have the problem of the salt clumping and jamming inside the v-box. Never used a v-box so don't know if this is a problem or not? One concern I have with the spray tank is the spray bar. When using liquid how far apart are your passes? Is each pass the width of the bar? With salt spreader it spreads the salt a good 20' in either direction correct? I am concerned with the liquid not covering then entire lot curb to curb because the liquid does not have the ability to roll into places is this a issue or is it just me making something out of nothing? I planning on using liquid as a marketing tool as well, hoping that it will give me a leg up on the competition because not many people use liquid in my area; is this a good idea? I am trying to avoid doing what everyone else is doing or has done and really trying to separate my self from the crowd and don't want to by a v-box just because that's what everyone else does. Thanks for taking the time to read my post and PM me directly if you want. If you leave your number I will call you and we can talk abut it further.


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## rick W

We are also just getting started in liquids, with out own brine maker and own sprayer. But...we have done commercial snow for 25 years. You must have a good rock spreader, simple, works and is standard. Liquid is a bit of a steep learning curve. When to pre treat, how heavy, when to spike blend...how much to have made and where to store. We are lucky we have a big shop and property. I personally think you would be better off to get the v box, and get some liquid snow shovel or whatever you have in your area that you can use on the sidewalks this year. Learn and adjust on sidewalks, and talk about the benefits, less tracking blah blah to clients. Learn that and consider brine on lots in year two. Cant see it possible to do both with no yard and little experience. If the sidewalks go well, look at making a prewetting system for your v box to spray at spinner. Lower amount of brine, still some benefits...and keep learning and moving forward. Eg...we have had very light snows the last couple days, and a quick temp drop after rain the other day, where all the low spots iced us. Liquid would have been a pain to spray lots, v box and gate open on smallest setting and truck going at a good speed. Very light salt, rocks bounced out 40' each side of truck, took no time and no product but worked way better then liquid. So, just need to have options. Just my 2 cents.


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## Broncslefty7

what pumps are you guys using for handling the liquid? say from tank to tank or maker to tank? im having issues with this, i have been using garden hoses which take forever, or pool vacuum hoses with pool pumps. LMK Thanks!


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## VS Innovation

dodgegmc1213 said:


> I ended up making a new spray bar, and thanks to Dave from VSI, I ordered a gps system.
> Looks really fun to install
> View attachment 169126
> View attachment 169127


Glad to see the setup in action! The systems are pretty easy to install. The hardest part is running the wiring in some of these new vehicles! I have a hard time taking a drill bit to a $75K truck!


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## VS Innovation

dodgegmc1213 said:


> Thanks 86 CJ, yeah I have to do something different I don't know what, the picture here, I have 2 holes drilled on the side parts, they hit each other and spray in the same area, (see the red circle) you can see these 2 sprays were off an inch or so but yet very close, as on the left side its the same....(see the yellow circle) this drilled hole is on the curve of the 90 degree elbow so I don't think that's bad. so the only thing I can think of is drill the side ones on an angle....next year will be different, I got plans already lol
> View attachment 169167


We used to run holes in pvc booms on the sides of our sprayer to get some additional coverage. We experienced the same problem with uneven coverage, basically making the extensions worthless. We now run the boom buster tips that 86 CJ mentioned. There is large range of flow rates that you can get depending on the volume you need to apply. The tips that CJ is using are 8 gpm tips. These are a great pre treatment tip, covering about 8-10 feet out each side of the truck. We set our sprayers up with two on each 'boom' giving us 16 gpm to handle post treatment application numbers. Remember, if you are running a three lane boom, each boom needs to flow the correct amount to match your speed and width based on your application rate. In all honesty, these tips are very expensive ($100 + per tip) but have made our lives and results tremendously better. Definitely worth the investment.


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## dodgegmc1213

VS Innovation said:


> Glad to see the setup in action! The systems are pretty easy to install. The hardest part is running the wiring in some of these new vehicles! I have a hard time taking a drill bit to a $75K truck!


Thank god my truck is rotted and only cost me $8k lol but when I go for a new truck in a few years, that's a different story.



VS Innovation said:


> We used to run holes in pvc booms on the sides of our sprayer to get some additional coverage. We experienced the same problem with uneven coverage, basically making the extensions worthless. We now run the boom buster tips that 86 CJ mentioned. There is large range of flow rates that you can get depending on the volume you need to apply. The tips that CJ is using are 8 gpm tips. These are a great pre treatment tip, covering about 8-10 feet out each side of the truck. We set our sprayers up with two on each 'boom' giving us 16 gpm to handle post treatment application numbers. Remember, if you are running a three lane boom, each boom needs to flow the correct amount to match your speed and width based on your application rate. In all honesty, these tips are very expensive ($100 + per tip) but have made our lives and results tremendously better. Definitely worth the investment.


Well I changed the boom around again, I took away the straight up sides and went back to 45degree angle, a lot better, instead of 15ft wide it's only 10ft but that's still perfect for me.. it'll get me through the rest of this season


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## VS Innovation

jbovara said:


> Hello all, I am looking for some honest advice and straight forward answers on the subject at hand. Don't mean to hi-jack but my main question revolves around liquids. A little background first. I am small time but, by no means a "low-baller". I have a small operation with only 2 trucks both f-350 SRW pick-ups and currently have one tail gate spreader. The majority of my business is residential driveways with only a few small commercial accounts. All my commercial accounts are 1" triggers and all are salted after plowing. All commercial contracts are set up "x" per salt application and "y" per plow based on amount of snow on the ground at the time of plow. If snow fall is 1" or less, or forecast ed 1"-3" I start spreading salt as soon as the snow starts to fall during hours of operation. Once that first application of salt is spread other services to follow as needed. I am no longer taking any single family residential driveways until I build up more commercial business. I have no yard and no means of mixing liquids my self so all liquids would have to be purchased pre- mixed. I use a tail gate spreader because the salt is easy to store in my garage on pallets and if I run out I just drive back home and reload. So based on my research it seems that liquids are cheaper per gallon per acre than salt per ton per acre, is this correct? If liquids are less expensive I can pass the savings on to the customer to help gain more business is this correct and a good idea? I am going to buy the biggest v-box salt spreader or the biggest spray tank, without exceeding weight limits, which is about 3800lbs, to put on one of the f-350's. Will the v-box be able to cover more acres or will the spray tank cover more acres? I will be purchasing the liquids or the salt to go into the v-box from a vendor during business hours prior to the actual event and I am thinking the liquid will store better and I will not have the problem of the salt clumping and jamming inside the v-box. Never used a v-box so don't know if this is a problem or not? One concern I have with the spray tank is the spray bar. When using liquid how far apart are your passes? Is each pass the width of the bar? With salt spreader it spreads the salt a good 20' in either direction correct? I am concerned with the liquid not covering then entire lot curb to curb because the liquid does not have the ability to roll into places is this a issue or is it just me making something out of nothing? I planning on using liquid as a marketing tool as well, hoping that it will give me a leg up on the competition because not many people use liquid in my area; is this a good idea? I am trying to avoid doing what everyone else is doing or has done and really trying to separate my self from the crowd and don't want to by a v-box just because that's what everyone else does. Thanks for taking the time to read my post and PM me directly if you want. If you leave your number I will call you and we can talk abut it further.


We were in your same situation 5 season ago. We had a small shop and a less than desirable v-box (meaning the shovel trick worked better than the spreader!). We decided to get into liquids instead of buying another spreader. I can tell you that the efficiency increase has been incredible and liquid de-icing is our highest margin work we do.

Cost savings has been huge for us. Our brine depending on the cost of our salt has been anywhere from 4 center per gallon (salt reject blocks) to 12 cents per gallon (road salt). I have done a tremendous amount of posting on the cost savings if you read through some of my older posts. In a nutshell the cost savings comes from the reduced salt usage per acre (about 2/3 less), times savings of being able to pump into your truck vs loading rock hard salt, and the fact that all of our trucks and sidewalk units now can de-ice.

As for the area that the truck can cover, you can plan on a 300 gallon tank (for your f-350) covering around 3.2 acres post treating and pre treating up to 10 acres (30 gallons per acre). The nice part is we run sprayers in the back of short bed trucks, something that cannot be done with a v-box.

Curb to curb. Yes it is true that salt does bounce and scatter. That is good and bad. We have seen some bad salt kill in grass due to operators spreading over the curb. The nice thing about liquid is it stays where it is applied. This means you can run directly down the curb line and not have to worry about the salt making its way into places it should not be applied. We run three lane booms that utilize boom less nozzles that have a spray width of up to 30 feet per pass.

It was a pretty quick summary, but there I have done a ton of posting on this if you go through my previous posts.


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## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> what pumps are you guys using for handling the liquid? say from tank to tank or maker to tank? im having issues with this, i have been using garden hoses which take forever, or pool vacuum hoses with pool pumps. LMK Thanks!


We run all poly transfer pumps, great pressure and very capable when it come to volume. You can find them everywhere. 2" poly transfer pump. There is nothing to corrode as all of the internals are either stainless or plastic. We have had great luck with them. Stay away from Chinese ones if possible! The engines last around one season from our experience.


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## Broncslefty7

we are selling an 8k gallon load of our liquid to a large insurance facility up the road from us that is currently using liquids. our mix is replacing the following.

Product 1 is a sodium brine with beet extract - we know what this is

Product 2 is Calcium with an organic wood by product - i have no idea what this wood byproduct is. anyone have any idea?


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## dodgegmc1213

Got the controller and wires installed, still have to do the valve and flow meter. My father gave me a great idea of using my computer mount for the controller, came out nice.


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## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> we are selling an 8k gallon load of our liquid to a large insurance facility up the road from us that is currently using liquids. our mix is replacing the following.
> 
> Product 1 is a sodium brine with beet extract - we know what this is
> 
> Product 2 is Calcium with an organic wood by product - i have no idea what this wood byproduct is. anyone have any idea?


Cant say I have heard of any type of de-icing agent containing an organic wood by product. Maybe someone has experience with it. The organic products in my research and discussions with other contractors tend to be an overpriced product which produces less than desirable results. Also, I cringe at the thought of any 'wood' product going through my sprayer.


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## Broncslefty7

That's what I said. We price him at 1.90 per gallon and they jumped at it. Which is good and bad. Good because it's lucrative, base because I only have 300 gallon totes lol


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## Broncslefty7

does anyone have any idea of cost per gallon a calcium/beet juice brine? i know formulas will very but i dont have any experience with the beet juice. i know a gallon of liquid calcium brine is costing us about .84 cents per gallon.


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## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> does anyone have any idea of cost per gallon a calcium/beet juice brine? i know formulas will very but i dont have any experience with the beet juice. i know a gallon of liquid calcium brine is costing us about .84 cents per gallon.


We have used a product from Tiger Calcium. It is 32% calcium chloride with beet juice additives and corrosion inhibitors. It has worked really well for us in the past. We were paying around $2 per gallon delivered (4500 gallon tanker loads).


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## rick W

VS Innovation said:


> We have used a product from Tiger Calcium. It is 32% calcium chloride with beet juice additives and corrosion inhibitors. It has worked really well for us in the past. We were paying around $2 per gallon delivered (4500 gallon tanker loads).


$2/gallon is not concentrate price, it is ready to spray product? Just asking as i am looking at getting a tote of calcium chloride concentrate to make my own 32% solution, to add into salt brine mix when needed for extreme cold snaps. Seems everyone wants to sell you a tote or more of finished magic sauce....but paying for likely 50% water seems kind of silly. Just trying to figure out what i need to know. I have several places that offer magic mixtures for around $2-3$ a gallon (Canadian), that include calc, some have mag, they have other corrosion inhibitors and chloride enhancers etc... just trying to figure out what is good and what is snake oil, then get a tote of it and mix my own water in with it and learn a bit this winter.


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## 86 CJ

Rick

Go get yourself a pallet of Calcium Flake and make your own at 32%. Grab a tote and a 2" pump and get r done. It's prob much cheaper then searching for it across the world unless you have a local liquid calcium supplier near you. We just made a 275g tote in 35 min this week, it breaks down quicker then rock salt.


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## Broncslefty7

^^ i second that, thats what we do.


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## Broncslefty7

my problem is i only wanted to test this stuff out this year but we are slinging it so i am literally having a packaging problem. ran out of containers and dont have trucks big enough to haul 3-4k gallons. my retail store guys are literally assembling harbor freight 2 gallon pump sprayers all day......

its a cadillac problem i guess. plus i wasnt planning on storing more than 1k gallons so now im a month out on a 5k tank.....


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## VS Innovation

Are you saying the price is to low for concentrate?

The product is 32% calcium chloride off the truck. Not a diluted mixture. We add the calcium chloride to our brine to adapt to different temperatures we spray in. Once it is added, it becomes a diluted mixture. We buy a decent volume every season for dust control and de-icing. Just this de-icing season we have already used 12,000 gallons of calcium chloride. The volume we go through and the volume we receive the product (tankers) allows us to get it for this price.


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## Broncslefty7

anyone care to run through a pricing structure?
rite now my cost per gallon is 66 cents thats Salt brine with Calcium brine 20% added and 15% IBG added. Our bottle cost is $1.15.

Rite now we are selling that bulk (over 275 gallons) for $1.90
People have been showing up with their own containers we sell it for $3.00. And if they are buying bottled liquid off our shelves we are charging $4.49.

Any of you guys seeing similar prices?

the parking lot mix that we are making is just salt brine with 20% calcium added in and we are selling that for 60 cents a gallon.


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## rick W

86 CJ said:


> Rick
> 
> Go get yourself a pallet of Calcium Flake and make your own at 32%. Grab a tote and a 2" pump and get r done. It's prob much cheaper then searching for it across the world unless you have a local liquid calcium supplier near you. We just made a 275g tote in 35 min this week, it breaks down quicker then rock salt.


Ok, though of doing a pm instead of on the board, but figured it sounds like lots are trying to learn about this sooo...may as well ask questions in the public forum even if they make me sound kind s l o w.... 

Mixing my own. Dow flake sells for $.50 a lb here, i havent found it cheaper anywhere including ag supply stores. According to your math i need 1200lbs in 256g of water...so that works out to $600 in calcium costs to make 300g of magic stuff. $2/gallon

I can buy one of these ice melter mixes...ready to go with 32% calc, some sodium in it too, some other stuff...all in a tote for $1.20 a gallon. So...if i buy one of these totes, and then add just 10% by volume of this 32% calc chloride mix...i should increase the effectiveness of my salt brine when temps are really cold. The makers of the mix, say you can just spread it like it is, but at $1 or $2 a gallon that is pretty dear. If you still get the benefits, i would much rather cut it 90% with sodium brine

Did i miss something, or does that kind of make sense?


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## Broncslefty7

so depending on the strength of the calcium, we buy 75% it costs 26 cents a lb. give me your email and ill send you where i get it from. 

3.25 lbs of calcium per gallon of water comes out to 84 cents of calcium per gallon to get calcium brine.

i personally wouldnt add anything to something that is already mixed up you can mess up the saturation index and then you would be trying to spray sludge. its easy enough to make in house. 

we do it like this.

2.3 lbs of salt per gallon of water (400 gallon mix)
then in a spearate container 80 gallons of water with 260 lbs of calcium
then add 60-80 gallons of IBG. 

we always mix in seperate containers, because people on here said to do it that way.......:hammerhead:

i personally really do not like those ibc totes, i think the walls are way to thin on them and are beginning to leak a little on my brine maker. next time i will use tanks instead. im not sure about regulations in your areas but this stuff is like 11 lbs. per gallon, and any chemical you are hauling over 1000 lbs. you need placards and a hazmat card here in CT.


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## Broncslefty7

Got my SDS sheets in today for our new liquid mix. Stamped non corrosive with 0 hazard pictograms!!!!

Message me your email I'll send it to you guys!


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## Rossy-BOS

Also new to the liquid brine category. VSI got me going on it With the spiking of calcium chloride what is the best way to go about getting calcium chloride? Should I get "Dow" flakes or liquid calcium chloride. If I go the liquid route what forum does it come in? I hear people talking about 32% when adding it, but does that mean it's a liquid with 32% calcium in it or does it come at 100% calcium chloride and you add say 10% of the amount of liquid needed to get the 10%-30% spike depending on temperature and conditions. 
Again I'm learning and a little confused with the calcium chloride area.. looking to get into it but want to know what I'm dealing with. 
Thanks for the help


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## Broncslefty7

Rossy-BOS said:


> Also new to the liquid brine category. VSI got me going on it With the spiking of calcium chloride what is the best way to go about getting calcium chloride? Should I get "Dow" flakes or liquid calcium chloride. If I go the liquid route what forum does it come in? I hear people talking about 32% when adding it, but does that mean it's a liquid with 32% calcium in it or does it come at 100% calcium chloride and you add say 10% of the amount of liquid needed to get the 10%-30% spike depending on temperature and conditions.
> Again I'm learning and a little confused with the calcium chloride area.. looking to get into it but want to know what I'm dealing with.
> Thanks for the help


It depends on the Dow flake that you get. Ours is 75% and it's 26 cents a pound.

I do it like this

500 gallon of sodium brine

Then 20% spike. In a separate container take 100 gallons of water. Then since mine is 75% it takes 325 lbs of calcium flake for the proper saturation. Always add calcium to water NEVER water to calcium you will melt the barrel. Then once it's mixed just pump it into the salt brine. Balance the corrosiveness and your good to go


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## Rossy-BOS

Broncslefty7 said:


> It depends on the Dow flake that you get. Ours is 75% and it's 26 cents a pound.
> 
> I do it like this
> 
> 500 gallon of sodium brine
> 
> Then 20% spike. In a separate container take 100 gallons of water. Then since mine is 75% it takes 325 lbs of calcium flake for the proper saturation. Always add calcium to water NEVER water to calcium you will melt the barrel. Then once it's mixed just pump it into the salt brine. Balance the corrosiveness and your good to go


That helps, now is it better to use Dow flake and make a batch or use the cacl in liquid forum. Which is normaly most cost effective way?


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## Broncslefty7

Rossy-BOS said:


> That helps, now is it better to use Dow flake and make a batch or use the cacl in liquid forum. Which is normaly most cost effective way?


I'm not sure I have never used or bought the liquid cal. I'd assume it would be cheaper to make yourself but idk.


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## Doug from Vancouver

Reposting here:

I live in a townhouse complex near Vancouver, Canada, which is rather temperate most years, but this year is different. We have four asphalt driveways, each about 75m (250 feet) long. Two of those driveways are on hills with a 5% grade, the other two are flat, and I estimate that all four total about half an acre in surface area.

We are willing to do the work ourselves, but have been doing it ineffectively, and a recent snow dump without proper treatment made us spend money to clear it which we didn't have, as the roads were very difficult to navigate. I'd like to avoid this again, and am willing to put a lot of work in. Whichever system I set up, I am not likely to need to use it extensively, as fallen snow tends to be washed away with rainwater within a few hours, and this is the largest snowfall here in over 15 years.

I basically need to clear an area of 1000ft x 14ft, most of it already professionally treated and plowed, however still with snow/ice on the ground. Some of the ice is 5 inches thick, and I want to remedy this myself, so please teach me! 

What I'm looking to accomplish, now and in the future is this:
To be able to produce a liquid solution to pre-treat and treat the asphalt in the complex where I live to eliminate slippery surfaces.
To do this without the use of a motor vehicle (Cost prohibitive)
To do it as cost effectively as possible, more so with regard to startup than cost of salting supplies. (Possible 4gal backpack?)

I've read for a few hours here, and a lot of this stuff is new to me, and quite confusing, so I like to dive in with my questions. Sorry if some of them seem simple to you, I'm hoping to learn some of what you guys know. I understand that some of these questions are buried a few pages back, but it would be helpful to me and likely others if everything was in one place.

Sodium Chloride brine should be tested with a hydrometer and be at 23% or slightly less, correct?
What ratio should I have of Sodium Chloride to Water?
Calcium Chloride brine should be tested with a hydrometer and be at 32%, correct?
What ratio should I have of Calcium Chloride to Water, if I use that mixture?
What is this specific gravity thing? It confuses me.
Humidity here seems to be 50-60% right now. How will that affect mix ratios?
I should include Calcium Chloride if I want a fast melt, or the temperature is expected to dip below -6?
If I want it to be effective in extreme cold, I need to mix these two solutions just before using in the backpack, with a 90/10 ratio?
How could I effectively mix the solution in the backpack and keep it mixed while I spray?
How many gallons of solution would it take to cover half an acre? 50-60gal?
Should I do this early in the morning if possible, so more people would drive over it early on?
What type of place is a good place to buy Sodium Chloride and Calcium Chloride?
Can I use table salt if I can't find bulk salt right now? (I expect this to be more expensive)
To test this on a small scale for the people in my complex, could I put table salt and water in a spray bottle to do a small area, and if so, how much salt to 1 cup of water? 

Thanks, 

Doug


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## psd104

Can anyone recommend a spray system for brine. Maybe a 100-200 gal system. Thinking on getting into liquid , getting real tired of bags of bagged salt


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## cfd511

Im new to the whole de-icing parking lots but not to plowing. A lot of my customers didn't want it done . I'm out on long island and temps rarely get into the teens . These may be stupid questions but I'm completely confused. What is Brine exactly ( Just rock salt diluted in water)? Can someone explain what the simplest way to make it is. Also why do you guys mix it with calcium chloride. I just got a little confused with all these calculations.


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## rick W

Just a few things..we are pretty new to this. Kubota (very helpful user on here) on here if you do a search has a simple and cheap to make brine maker using two plastic totes. Works fine for most of us. Just salt water...at 23.5% you test with a hydrometer you get off amazon or ebay, when mixed to that percent. You stop recirculating it and store it as its ready to go and will stay in the saturation.

Sprayers... make your own (vsi on here makes really nice looking set ups if you want plug and play). Lots of good stuff on here and friendly people that will answer questions. Parts can all be ordered on line, i got most from spraysmarter, as dultmeiyer just seemed to make it complicated but either will sell the quality parts at fair prices.

BUT...there is learning curve and I would really suggest you run both rock and liquid for a year or two. Eg...a week ago we pretreated with brine. Two inches of cold fluff hit and our lots were liquid. We looked like rock stars. Yesterday we got 4 inches of unexpected wet snow right at crunch time and at one of our places we plowed and brined as the last inch fell...just turned into a souply sloppy mess pretty aweful for an hour or two. Eventually melted down but rock salt like they used at the lot next door and at our other jobs was a way better call. So cold and dry, brine seems to be ideal. Wet and warm.....rock salt no comparison. Pre treating is a really good service that we will be using more. Easy, no rush, no full lots and works really well.

Also making brine and transferring brine, and dialing in your maker and sprayer is a lot of trial and error and a lot of soaked overalls and salt water everywhere. We will get there, and overall happy but its a different animal and i would say a very effective tool but not ideal for all events and certainly not a rock or liquid choice...its a both...and when to use each one. We are still experimenting and have been very happy with liquid (not just salt brine) on sidewalks and think that is a good way to experiment and learn. We have one 5 acre lot we are trying liquids on. We decided to try it for a few reasons. Less salt useage...lower costs to us, better for environment and clients plants and floors, and to lower staff rush when its icy/snowing at the 5-7am times.


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## 86 CJ

rick W said:


> Just a few things..we are pretty new to this. Kubota (very helpful user on here) on here if you do a search has a simple and cheap to make brine maker using two plastic totes. Works fine for most of us. Just salt water...at 23.5% you test with a hydrometer you get off amazon or ebay, when mixed to that percent. You stop recirculating it and store it as its ready to go and will stay in the saturation.
> 
> Sprayers... make your own (vsi on here makes really nice looking set ups if you want plug and play). Lots of good stuff on here and friendly people that will answer questions. Parts can all be ordered on line, i got most from spraysmarter, as dultmeiyer just seemed to make it complicated but either will sell the quality parts at fair prices.
> 
> BUT...there is learning curve and I would really suggest you run both rock and liquid for a year or two. Eg...a week ago we pretreated with brine. Two inches of cold fluff hit and our lots were liquid. We looked like rock stars. Yesterday we got 4 inches of unexpected wet snow right at crunch time and at one of our places we plowed and brined as the last inch fell...just turned into a souply sloppy mess pretty aweful for an hour or two. Eventually melted down but rock salt like they used at the lot next door and at our other jobs was a way better call. So cold and dry, brine seems to be ideal. Wet and warm.....rock salt no comparison. Pre treating is a really good service that we will be using more. Easy, no rush, no full lots and works really well.
> 
> Also making brine and transferring brine, and dialing in your maker and sprayer is a lot of trial and error and a lot of soaked overalls and salt water everywhere. We will get there, and overall happy but its a different animal and i would say a very effective tool but not ideal for all events and certainly not a rock or liquid choice...its a both...and when to use each one. We are still experimenting and have been very happy with liquid (not just salt brine) on sidewalks and think that is a good way to experiment and learn. We have one 5 acre lot we are trying liquids on. We decided to try it for a few reasons. Less salt useage...lower costs to us, better for environment and clients plants and floors, and to lower staff rush when its icy/snowing at the 5-7am times.


Glad to see you are doing your research, testing and learning out there Rick, keep up the good work, it only gets easier


----------



## 86 CJ

Here are a couple pics I will throw in here of our work in MD from last Thursday through Sunday morning with air temps overnight in the teens and ground temps around 8  Storms were very small, up to 1.5" maybe in some areas, but because of the temps Ice was everywhere overnight and sticking around in the mornings.

Quick pre-treat before possible Sat morning storm








Some 90/10 spraying with up to 1/4" on ground, lots were pavement within 10 min, these lots were not pre-treated














another lot covered that we did a quick spray on


----------



## 86 CJ

Here is one of our accounts we did not pre-treat and had to really lay on the 85/15 cal mix to get down to pavement the next morning. Temps were still 19 out with ground at 10.This was after plowing,








Here is a lot we pre-treated down the street the night before and what it looked like when we showed up and during first plow with 80/20 IBG














We plowed that lot, treated sidewalks a bit and let it sit over night in cold as temps, went out and sprayed light application of 90/10 at 5am the next morning, then I stopped back by at 9am and this is what the lot looked like, temps were still in the high 20's




















AND here is another contractor that did my lot the weekend at my regular job and his lot yesterday when I got to work.


----------



## rick W

Another part of the learning curve is the pressure and spray. Eg...the lot we are testing on is 5 acres. 100g/acre is considered heavy application. If i pour 500g down...on an inch of snow...depending on temp i could have water in minutes or.....some funky wet stripes for an hour. When we finally get it all dry and cleaned up, you can actually see each line of brine on the ashpalt, almost like a pressure spray line but i would say i was a little unpleasantly surprised by the melt down on a few occassions so far. Rock salt i am used to, and its easy to open the gate more or speed up or slow the spinner and get water quick...salt brine i have not found as easy to adjust...slowing down or speeding up or adjusting pressure isnt as simple as the boss vbx to control. Not complaining...just part of growing pains year one. Also i got a screaming deal on some bult dirty salt. Great price but holly $hiT is it a royal pain cleaning 2 inches of gravel and mud out of bottom of top tote every 400g batch in the cold. Fun though, overall love learning about all this but just want to emphasize its a slow process to implement and master. Even running back to shop and sucking two more totes of finished brine up into truck tank with cold stiff hoses and leaky tote fittings is a battle. Will have plumbing and application rates and storage tanks all in line for next winter so its a simple process with adequate and easy storage, reloading facilities. People do look at you really oddly when they see you spraying liquid when its bitterly cold out. Funny....told one lady we are spraying for weeds. She just nodded..ok.


----------



## Rossy-BOS

Broncslefty7 said:


> so depending on the strength of the calcium, we buy 75% it costs 26 cents a lb. give me your email and ill send you where i get it from.
> 
> 3.25 lbs of calcium per gallon of water comes out to 84 cents of calcium per gallon to get calcium brine.
> 
> i personally wouldnt add anything to something that is already mixed up you can mess up the saturation index and then you would be trying to spray sludge. its easy enough to make in house.
> 
> we do it like this.
> 
> 2.3 lbs of salt per gallon of water (400 gallon mix)
> then in a spearate container 80 gallons of water with 260 lbs of calcium
> then add 60-80 gallons of IBG.
> 
> we always mix in seperate containers, because people on here said to do it that way.......:hammerhead:
> 
> i personally really do not like those ibc totes, i think the walls are way to thin on them and are beginning to leak a little on my brine maker. next time i will use tanks instead. im not sure about regulations in your areas but this stuff is like 11 lbs. per gallon, and any chemical you are hauling over 1000 lbs. you need placards and a hazmat card here in CT.


 So I called around for pricing on Dow flake today (calcium chloride flake) Hawkins in Minneapolis said this--

"Here is the pricing for a pallet_ (56 bags - 2,856 lbs. gross weight including pallet)_:

· PN 4052 - Calcium Chloride 77-80% - 50 lb. Bag Regular Flake: *$0.3871/lb. *_FOB Hawkins"

Is this decent pricing? Some say it is .26cents and others say it's .50cents per pound in their area. _


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## Broncslefty7

I dont add in the weight of the pallet lol. Call SCP in Windsor Connecticut and ask for Mike perron. I buy a lot of stuff off him. Tell him james from Rizzo told u to call. Scp is a swimming pool distributor, they may have a branch near you I have no clue. Good Luck.


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## Broncslefty7

Anyone have any good time lapse videos? VSI is there a separate control on your system? i saw your remote on your website but dont see a turn the spray on button or like a turn the side sprayers on or not.


----------



## extremepusher

VS do you have pictures of your truck set-ups?


----------



## VS Innovation

extremepusher said:


> VS do you have pictures of your truck set-ups?


Sure do. This is our most upgraded 305. Three lane boom, 300 ft hose reel, able to self fill and pump out, stainless skid.


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> Anyone have any good time lapse videos? VSI is there a separate control on your system? i saw your remote on your website but dont see a turn the spray on button or like a turn the side sprayers on or not.


We are working on some time lapse videos. We were filming one night and then the wind decided to blow over a $3k camera! We can say that the footage was not saved once the camera hit the pavement.... Our controller has three switches not shown in the picture that control each boom independently on the top of the controller. Sorry for the late replies, I was at an expo all last week and have been playing catch up since!


----------



## VS Innovation

If you guys check out our facebook page, our new promo video is up for our de-icing sprayers.

https://www.facebook.com/vsinnovation/


----------



## Broncslefty7

yeah the video is sharp.


----------



## Rossy-BOS

Now for Electric motor questions..Alright thanks for all the help so far! I'm looking to run a electric pump. With a 400 gallon brine maker 2" pipe with 5 jets. What's a good brand with a "banjo" pump on it? I've seen the Briggs and Stratton 5.5hp gas engines... looking for electric so I can use in doors. What size and things I should look at with electric pumps?


----------



## Broncslefty7

is anyone having issues with their brine foaming? when we transfer from tank to tank ill get a foot of foam. even when we fill our sprayers, im not really sure why, generally Foam is a symptom of high PH, but we are right around 6.8 which is a little low. i know calcium will foam a bit but not this much. anyone have any ideas?


----------



## gmcsierra1500

So I have been reading this thread as well as many others lately and I am finally going to get into liquids this season. We have started building a brine maker and I am working on plans for a sprayer just to start experimenting this year. I would love a VSI setup but want more experience before the investment. I am curious about corrosion inhibitors and what you guys are adding to your brine or blends for this? I know some people mix Magic with their sodium brine but what are other options? I am also pre-treating my salt with Magic this season due to the lower temperatures we have been experiencing the last few seasons so I do have it on hand but what are you using for a Calcium/Sodium blend?


----------



## Broncslefty7

gmcsierra1500 said:


> So I have been reading this thread as well as many others lately and I am finally going to get into liquids this season. We have started building a brine maker and I am working on plans for a sprayer just to start experimenting this year. I would love a VSI setup but want more experience before the investment. I am curious about corrosion inhibitors and what you guys are adding to your brine or blends for this? I know some people mix Magic with their sodium brine but what are other options? I am also pre-treating my salt with Magic this season due to the lower temperatures we have been experiencing the last few seasons so I do have it on hand but what are you using for a Calcium/Sodium blend?


Gmc what town r u in? I'm in newington if you want to stop by and check our set up out


----------



## William Brett

Hi Guys,

This may well already be answered somewhere, if so please feel free to point me in the right direction.

So I'm from across the pond in the UK and have been using and making liquids for 5 years and have made a number of sprayers over the years.

I am happy with the rates I use and have never had an issue with that being my current dilemma is as follows:
99% of our treatments are preventative, and when I say preventative I mean preventative only for frost and ice so no big deal compared to you guys that deal with loads of snow but my guestion is this we are having an unusual for us long cold and dry spell, what are people doing regards reducing application rates on consecutive nights out. 

Looking at being more environmentally friendly and reducing product useage whilst maintaining safe conditions.

Any thoughts welcome.


----------



## VS Innovation

gmcsierra1500 said:


> So I have been reading this thread as well as many others lately and I am finally going to get into liquids this season. We have started building a brine maker and I am working on plans for a sprayer just to start experimenting this year. I would love a VSI setup but want more experience before the investment. I am curious about corrosion inhibitors and what you guys are adding to your brine or blends for this? I know some people mix Magic with their sodium brine but what are other options? I am also pre-treating my salt with Magic this season due to the lower temperatures we have been experiencing the last few seasons so I do have it on hand but what are you using for a Calcium/Sodium blend?


We run a product called road guard 8 which is a blend of 32% calcium chloride, beat juice molasses, and corrosion inhibitors (comes pre mixed). It has worked really well for us and we can get it delivered for around $2 per gallon. We have been experimenting with other calcium chlorides this winter with good results but nothing like the road guard. We are trying blending inhibitors with the straight calcium chloride to help slow down the melting process to prevent flash freezing in low temperatures. We have not had to run calcium chloride in our brine the past few storms due to the higher temperatures we have been having. I will keep you updated on what happens!


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> is anyone having issues with their brine foaming? when we transfer from tank to tank ill get a foot of foam. even when we fill our sprayers, im not really sure why, generally Foam is a symptom of high PH, but we are right around 6.8 which is a little low. i know calcium will foam a bit but not this much. anyone have any ideas?


Always fill from the bottom of that tank. This will prevent the foaming upon filling. If you are top filling your tank, simply run a piece of pvc down to the bottom of the tank. This should cure that problem.


----------



## VS Innovation

William Brett said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> This may well already be answered somewhere, if so please feel free to point me in the right direction.
> 
> So I'm from across the pond in the UK and have been using and making liquids for 5 years and have made a number of sprayers over the years.
> 
> I am happy with the rates I use and have never had an issue with that being my current dilemma is as follows:
> 99% of our treatments are preventative, and when I say preventative I mean preventative only for frost and ice so no big deal compared to you guys that deal with loads of snow but my guestion is this we are having an unusual for us long cold and dry spell, what are people doing regards reducing application rates on consecutive nights out.
> 
> Looking at being more environmentally friendly and reducing product useage whilst maintaining safe conditions.
> 
> Any thoughts welcome.


Application rates depend directly on the conditions you are spraying in. Light snow pack/frost cover will require less than a heavier snow pack. There have been a few weeks this year where our company has gone through over 8000 gallons of brine and 2000 gallons of calcium chloride. This however was necessary to keep the lots clean as it snowed almost everyday. Simply put, there is not a whole lot you can do if treatment is required other than applying the correct amount for the situation.


----------



## William Brett

VS Innovation said:


> Application rates depend directly on the conditions you are spraying in. Light snow pack/frost cover will require less than a heavier snow pack. There have been a few weeks this year where our company has gone through over 8000 gallons of brine and 2000 gallons of calcium chloride. This however was necessary to keep the lots clean as it snowed almost everyday. Simply put, there is not a whole lot you can do if treatment is required other than applying the correct amount for the situation.


My question is more about what people are doing to adjust for residual salt when you have had say 5 consecutive treatments, with traffic conditions a light British frost but only on grass and some untreated black top etc. Over here we are lucky if we get snow that sticks more than once a year most of our work is frost and light ice prevention. Just wondering what other people do in a similar scenario.


----------



## William Brett

Broncslefty7 said:


> anyone have any suggestion for back pack sprayers or sprayers for a sidewalk crew? i do not have any side walk machines, we are still using push blowers. any recomendations?


Over the pond in the U.K. We use solo sprayers last a season generally before any issues, other than the strap clips which are crap and get replaced.


----------



## Broncslefty7

yeah we ended up using the round up 4 gallon backpack sprayers. they work well.


----------



## Grassman09

A few questions here.. Not entirely new to the Game of liquids but fairly green too it.

I made a lil system a few years ago but didn't have much time to play with it. Was based off a gas engine with a pacser pump. Tee jet nozzles some fan nozzles of various degrees and the SJ3 20VP on a QJ 363C Valve body with a Banjo 1.5 electric ball valve for bypass. Some others have been asking me more about the system since I made it. One contractor his father asks me yearly about it when he sees me. His dad likes to try new things also.

If you have a Gas sprayer and your system is GPS based how does that work to adjust the flow?

Do you have a in cab control or do you have to go outside and fire the engine up? 
I have a Gas salter and I've vowed not to use GAS in the future this year after the issues I've been having with my salter this season. Not sure if the Hondas are that much better then the Briggs.

My truck has a PTO on it for the dump box not sure how one would hook in a Hydro pump for spraying. Not sure how consistent it would work either being its based off the transmission I'm sure.

How are you keeping track how much product you are using at each site?

The controller tell you a total each time you turn it on and off or are you just getting out of the truck and looking at the gallon markings and doing a best guess?

How are you dealing with re freeze like snow piles melting run off from the piles if you do not have a salter?

How do you select 1 lane or just middle or 3 lane? 
The Dultmier Raven (looks over kill for our usage) controller looks to have a switch on the raven controller. 
A 3 lane boom would be great as most of the places have walkways off the parking lot that I usually hit with the salter too.

I cannot drive 30 MPH in most of the lots that's is a bit fast and they are not that open. More low speed sites at the moment.

I generally wait til the temp drops to the freezing mark because if I lay salt when its above the salt will just be washed away, when treating pile run off.

The Products available in my are Beet Juice, Salt Brine, Calcium based with corn by product I think they call it Caliber M1000 or M2000. I can get Magic -0 but only one distributor and its not cheap and have to travel 4 hours round trip to get it. I think I can also get well brine from the natural gas wells and I know two guys using it but never followed up on how it works. Some of the places here do not know much about there own products they are selling. They just say it works great and some guys use it to spray with as well.

Here is a MSDS to a liquid that's available. I bought some once and it worked ok.

I have used the Beet Juice salt and also Thaw Rox from sifto which was great. No re freeze and even would burn off a light dusting. Wouldn't recommend it if you are a salt extra contractor.

I made my own salt brine once I still have a few totes of it left but I had allot of fall out a good thick layer of mud on the bottom. That is probably thick and solid now in the totes seen as it was 3 years ago I made it. The salinity is 23.3 % I used one of the anti freeze testers that tells you the strength. I used stock tanks and pumped water over the salt. Kubota from here gave me the idea on how to do it.

I have a spare truck to use a system in a 33,000k GVWR single axle dump truck. I thought of a 1100 Gallon Tank for the truck. 
I don't want to run the truck in the salt / snow as its never seen salt other then us using it to haul leftover salt at end of the season. So it would be a good pre treat truck. I have a similar sized truck with a big 6 yard Vbox in it that's allot older that id prefer to use in the salt.

I like this style boom and have seen it in use and it can really spray far.
https://www.dultmeier.com/catpages/e0413.pdf


----------



## VS Innovation

Grassman09 said:


> A few questions here.. Not entirely new to the Game of liquids but fairly green too it.
> 
> I made a lil system a few years ago but didn't have much time to play with it. Was based off a gas engine with a pacser pump. Tee jet nozzles some fan nozzles of various degrees and the SJ3 20VP on a QJ 363C Valve body with a Banjo 1.5 electric ball valve for bypass. Some others have been asking me more about the system since I made it. One contractor his father asks me yearly about it when he sees me. His dad likes to try new things also.
> 
> If you have a Gas sprayer and your system is GPS based how does that work to adjust the flow?
> 
> Do you have a in cab control or do you have to go outside and fire the engine up?
> I have a Gas salter and I've vowed not to use GAS in the future this year after the issues I've been having with my salter this season. Not sure if the Hondas are that much better then the Briggs.
> 
> My truck has a PTO on it for the dump box not sure how one would hook in a Hydro pump for spraying. Not sure how consistent it would work either being its based off the transmission I'm sure.
> 
> How are you keeping track how much product you are using at each site?
> 
> The controller tell you a total each time you turn it on and off or are you just getting out of the truck and looking at the gallon markings and doing a best guess?
> 
> How are you dealing with re freeze like snow piles melting run off from the piles if you do not have a salter?
> 
> How do you select 1 lane or just middle or 3 lane?
> The Dultmier Raven (looks over kill for our usage) controller looks to have a switch on the raven controller.
> A 3 lane boom would be great as most of the places have walkways off the parking lot that I usually hit with the salter too.
> 
> I cannot drive 30 MPH in most of the lots that's is a bit fast and they are not that open. More low speed sites at the moment.
> 
> I generally wait til the temp drops to the freezing mark because if I lay salt when its above the salt will just be washed away, when treating pile run off.
> 
> The Products available in my are Beet Juice, Salt Brine, Calcium based with corn by product I think they call it Caliber M1000 or M2000. I can get Magic -0 but only one distributor and its not cheap and have to travel 4 hours round trip to get it. I think I can also get well brine from the natural gas wells and I know two guys using it but never followed up on how it works. Some of the places here do not know much about there own products they are selling. They just say it works great and some guys use it to spray with as well.
> 
> Here is a MSDS to a liquid that's available. I bought some once and it worked ok.
> 
> I have used the Beet Juice salt and also Thaw Rox from sifto which was great. No re freeze and even would burn off a light dusting. Wouldn't recommend it if you are a salt extra contractor.
> 
> I made my own salt brine once I still have a few totes of it left but I had allot of fall out a good thick layer of mud on the bottom. That is probably thick and solid now in the totes seen as it was 3 years ago I made it. The salinity is 23.3 % I used one of the anti freeze testers that tells you the strength. I used stock tanks and pumped water over the salt. Kubota from here gave me the idea on how to do it.
> 
> I have a spare truck to use a system in a 33,000k GVWR single axle dump truck. I thought of a 1100 Gallon Tank for the truck.
> I don't want to run the truck in the salt / snow as its never seen salt other then us using it to haul leftover salt at end of the season. So it would be a good pre treat truck. I have a similar sized truck with a big 6 yard Vbox in it that's allot older that id prefer to use in the salt.
> 
> I like this style boom and have seen it in use and it can really spray far.
> https://www.dultmeier.com/catpages/e0413.pdf


The controllers for our systems have a lot of nice features programmed in them. They can track the amount of liquid applied and store the information in the controller. They also track the area that has been covered in correlation with the volume that was applied. The controller has three switches on the top to control each boom independently. It knows the speed the vehicle is traveling at, the desired application rate per acre, and the width of the boom or booms that are spraying. It uses this information to generate and continuously adjust the flow rate.

The standard set up uses a servo valve to adjust the flow, however we have several different options available. If a hydraulic motor is being uses to run a pump, we use a servo that controls the flow of hydraulic oil to the pump, thus using the flow from the pump to maintain our flow rate.


----------



## Doug from Vancouver

I've tested the AWESOME suggestions on here, which have opened just a few questions:

1. What type of retailer would I be most likely to find liquid calcium chloride?
2. I'm making it 4 gallons at a time and adding it to a backpack sprayer. Which type of affordable agitator would you suggest to mix up the brine solution effectively? Would warm water help dissolve the salt better?
3. If I have some ice buildup, what salt brine/calcium chloride brine ratio would you recommend?

Thanks for all your awesome information and advice!

Doug


----------



## plowin-fire

Making a wet boom with SJ3 black nozzles. Are you running screens in them, or is the orifice size big enough that it doesnt matter?


----------



## VS Innovation

Doug from Vancouver said:


> I've tested the AWESOME suggestions on here, which have opened just a few questions:
> 
> 1. What type of retailer would I be most likely to find liquid calcium chloride?
> 2. I'm making it 4 gallons at a time and adding it to a backpack sprayer. Which type of affordable agitator would you suggest to mix up the brine solution effectively? Would warm water help dissolve the salt better?
> 3. If I have some ice buildup, what salt brine/calcium chloride brine ratio would you recommend?
> 
> Thanks for all your awesome information and advice!
> 
> Doug


We work with a few different suppliers across the country. Tiger calcium is our main supplier. They are based in Canada and have a decent sized distribution network. We also deal with a company called Harmony Liquids who sells calcium chloride and inhibitors to make a nice blend. As far as a retailer, anyone who would carry dust control products or handle chemicals would be a good place to start for finding the product. If you want me to help you get in contact with our chain just message me and I can talk to our sales reps.

Our company manufactures affordable and very powerful brine makers from bag loaded 450 gallon units to high capacity 1800 gallon units. Warm water is not worth dealing with when it comes to making brine. If you agitation system is powerful enough water temperature will not make a difference, it is also an added cost to the process. An example of this is our 450 brine maker is making a batch in under 5 minutes.

Ice build up is one of the harder situations for brine to handle. Depending on how thick it is we will run an blend with some calcium chloride in it 90/10 or 80/20 usually. In situations of heavy build up by downspouts, we have sprinkled a light amount of rock salt to burn holes in the ice and then sprayed brine on top of it. This looses the bond between the ice and the surface and melts it from the bottom up.


----------



## VS Innovation

plowin-fire said:


> Making a wet boom with SJ3 black nozzles. Are you running screens in them, or is the orifice size big enough that it doesnt matter?


Do not worry about running screens in them. Brine is always going to have a small amount of debris in it. The filters in those tips are meant for ag use and are usually a very fine mesh. The last thing you will want to do is clean tips multiple times a night. Remember that your orifice size dictates your flow rate and in the end your speed. I'm not sure what the actual flow rate is on that tip. It is usually rated at 40 psi, so you may need to compensate with a large tip if your system is not capable of that pressure.


----------



## Grassman09

Pieceing back together a system I started on a few years ago but ran out of Weather to try it in. Two fan style tips to chose from and the black Sj3's.

Going to try out the beet juice and salt brine liquid 1st as I can pick it up pretty close and decent price. 30% Juice 70 Salt brine they also offer a 50% Juice 50% Brine.

The only other product I can pick up relatively close is Caliber. Wasn't that impressed with it when I was useing it in a Pre Wet system.


----------



## plowin-fire

Hey VSI,
What would it cost me to get some Road Guard Plus 8. Thinking a 275 tote. Or know anywhere in the Sioux Falls, SD area that has it?


----------



## VS Innovation

plowin-fire said:


> Hey VSI,
> What would it cost me to get some Road Guard Plus 8. Thinking a 275 tote. Or know anywhere in the Sioux Falls, SD area that has it?


Not sure on the price of a tote since we have not bought a tote for a few years now. I believe I remember it was around $3 a gallon. If you would like, we could more than likely get you a tote from our landscaping company to try. I will have to check to see if they have any road guard at the moment. We would be more than happy to help you save some money.


----------



## plowin-fire

Ok thanks. I have plenty of totes to fill depending on where the product is it.


----------



## VS Innovation

plowin-fire said:


> Ok thanks. I have plenty of totes to fill depending on where the product is it.


We are over by the Mankato area. Message me if you ever want to stop by! It is hard to think about snow when it is 60* out!!


----------



## plowin-fire

Only 2.5 hrs away. Might have to make a trip up there. Or what else would you mix in to brine to apply at cold temps? Also you have anything for dust control on gravel?


----------



## VS Innovation

plowin-fire said:


> Only 2.5 hrs away. Might have to make a trip up there. Or what else would you mix in to brine to apply at cold temps? Also you have anything for dust control on gravel?


We have used the road guard for dust control. If we can we like to use just a straight calcium chloride due to the cost. There are not many options for dropping the freezing temp of brine other than your calcium chlorides and a few other products. Most of the other products aimed at liquid de icing are pretty expensive.


----------



## Broncslefty7

having an odd issue today. we are making a 1500 gallon batch of liquid, we normally make our own calcium brine, and went off of the weight requirements that you guys where speaking about. i got a calcium hydormeter 0-120%. we are using 77% (Minimum) Flake, at a rate of 3.25 lbs. per gallon. so we used 60 gallons of water and 195 lbs. of calcium flake. the odd thing is the Calcium Chloride Salometer is reading 85%.... if im not mistaken that should be around 32.5%??? any ideas? everything ive read online says we would need almost 230 lbs of calcium per 60 gallons of water which doesnt really make much sense as that would put the salometer reading around 95%?? any ideas shoot me a message i need to get on the phone with one of you guys about this. Thanks!


----------



## Customdoors1

VS Innovation said:


> In all honesty we have never tried using treated salt before. If mixed correctly you should end up with a 90% brine 10% calcium chloride mixture (depending on how the salt was treated). It might be difficult to test the brine due to the fact the density of the mixture will be different with the calcium chloride. The basic hydrometers are only meant to read a straight brine mixture. How much the density would deviate from regular brine would need to be tested. If I get some time I will run a test and measure the difference in density of a 100% brine mixture and a 90/10 mixture using the same hydrometer.


Did you ever get a chance to try and make treated brine?


----------



## VS Innovation

Customdoors1 said:


> Did you ever get a chance to try and make treated brine?


I would not recommend using treated salt. There are many variables that will change the density of the brine when it comes to testing. Each load of treated salt will contain a different amount of calcium chloride which means there is no standard to base your testing on.

The easiest way is to make straight brine. The final product can be easily and accurately tested no matter what purity of salt you are using. You can then easily add calcium chloride to your truck to adapt to the temperature you are applying in.


----------



## Plow_King3131

I am wondering about pre treatment. What are the ideal conditions and time to apply. I will be using calcium chloride. if applied wrong can it make the roads greasy?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Plow_King3131 said:


> if applied wrong can it make the roads greasy?


Yes

In reality, below freezing is best. And IIRC, if the dewpoint is fairly high, close to air temp, you can cause some problems as well.


----------



## Plow_King3131

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes
> 
> In reality, below freezing is best. And IIRC, if the dewpoint is fairly high, close to air temp, you can cause some problems as well.


yes I have been doing a lot of research. i have read that you cannot apply below -10c (sorry I'm a canuck). any other tips?


----------



## VS Innovation

As I have said before, we very rarely pre treat. We will if we are going to be getting freezing rain or early in the season if we want to build up a residual effect on our lots. 

The concept behind pre treating is to get out before any for of precipitation. We usually shoot for a minimum of 6 hours before the first flake or drop. We always try to use straight brine when pre treating. The goal is to get the salt down and let the water evaporate away. If our ground temps are really cold ( below 0 F) we will consider adding calcium chloride to prevent flash freezing and turning our lots into skating rinks.


----------



## Plow_King3131

awsome. how much snow can brine melt away? I would image no more than an inch? I'm guessing you need to double up application rates if post treating as well?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Plow_King3131 said:


> yes I have been doing a lot of research. i have read that you cannot apply below -10c (sorry I'm a canuck). any other tips?


You can't?

What was the reasoning behind that statement? Because in my experience, I have never had an issue doing it whilst cold(er).


----------



## VS Innovation

The amount of snow that a pre treatment will handle depends on the ground temperature and climate. We have some customers in the mid eastern parts of the states that are able to melt off up to an inch of snow with a pre treatment and run easily under 30 gallons per acre in a post treatment than we are able to here in MN. Our average pre treatment rates run 30-50 gpa and 80-100+ gpa post. Our customers I mentioned are running around 35 gpa pre treat and 60 gallons per acre post treat with excellent results. 

The difference is simply the difference in our climate. Their ground temperatures stay much warmer than ours through out the season making the salt more affective.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

VS Innovation said:


> We will if we are going to be getting freezing rain


Strange, the one time I will NEVER use liquids as pre or post is before\during\after a freezing rain event. It dilutes too fast, washes off or one has to apply buttloads to do any good.



VS Innovation said:


> We always try to use straight brine when pre treating.


I'd rather use brine with a concentration of foo-foo dust when pretreating for the exact purpose of getting those carbohydrates into the pavement that create that layer that reduces hardpack buildup.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Plow_King3131 said:


> awsome. how much snow can brine melt away? I would image no more than an inch? I'm guessing you need to double up application rates if post treating as well?


How much snow can salt melt?

If you've been using granular up to now, you've already been using liquids to melt snow and ice.

Under the right conditions, depending on what you are using, maybe an inch. Other times, maybe a 1/4 inch. Maybe none.


----------



## VS Innovation

Mark Oomkes said:


> Strange, the one time I will NEVER use liquids as pre or post is before\during\after a freezing rain event. It dilutes too fast, washes off or one has to apply buttloads to do any good.
> 
> I'd rather use brine with a concentration of foo-foo dust when pretreating for the exact purpose of getting those carbohydrates into the pavement that create that layer that reduces hardpack buildup.


Looking back at our season this year I would have to agree with that. We have had a tremendous amount of freezing rain/rain for MN. Liquid is about the weakest form of de icing you can use when it comes down to those conditions. This being said, it is our only means of de icing and we have learned to adapt to it. We pre treat these events to prevent the initial build up of ice knowing that we will have to service throughout the entire event.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

VS Innovation said:


> The difference is simply the difference in our climate. Their ground temperatures stay much warmer than ours through out the season making the salt more affective.


And moisture content of the snow.....and sunlight.....lots of things play into it. Not just pavement temperature.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

VS Innovation said:


> Looking back at our season this year I would have to agree with that. We have had a tremendous amount of freezing rain/rain for MN. Liquid is about the weakest form of de icing you can use when it comes down to those conditions. This being said, it is our only means of de icing and we have learned to adapt to it. We pre treat these events to prevent the initial build up of ice knowing that we will have to service throughout the entire event.


And that is the exact reason I will never use strictly liquids or strictly granular. I don't only use truck mounted plows, but also pusher boxes, inverted snowblowers, back plows, sidewalk plows, shovels, etc. There is no ONE tool that does everything well.


----------



## VS Innovation

Mark Oomkes said:


> How much snow can salt melt?
> 
> If you've been using granular up to now, you've already been using liquids to melt snow and ice.
> 
> Under the right conditions, depending on what you are using, maybe an inch. Other times, maybe a 1/4 inch. Maybe none.


Agree 100 percent. Sometimes people do not realize that when the salt comes in contact with moisture it dissolves and makes brine naturally. This is one of the steps that slows down the process of granular salt and allows liquid to work faster.

The only result we have seen from our pre treatments is the lack of a bond between the pavement and snow IF the lots were left untouched through and even and not plowed or driven over many times. The lots that are not touched plow very nicely. The packed ones sometimes seem to have a thicker layer of snow pack. They still melt off fine as the salt is still below the snow, they just do not plow as nice here. Metal cutting edges work better on these areas, while rubber works great on the untouched lots.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

VS Innovation said:


> The packed ones sometimes seem to have a thicker layer of snow pack.


I can see this if you're using strictly brine.....which I wouldn't. If you are, you're missing one of the key benefits of applying liquids.

Although, the same can be done with granular.


----------



## VS Innovation

Mark Oomkes said:


> I can see this if you're using strictly brine.....which I wouldn't. If you are, you're missing one of the key benefits of applying liquids.
> 
> Although, the same can be done with granular.


The biggest reason we develop snow pack on the accounts I am thinking about is length of the push. Some of our accounts are 7+ acres and require the snow to be pushed over 1400 feet and a several different angles to move piles around corners and to stack. This would be the reason for developing this snow pack. Even with our payloaders running push boxes and our snow wing it still requires many passes. 99% of the time liquid has worked perfectly for us. We are able to maintain the constant use of it thanks to our climate where heavy wet snows and freezing rain are very uncommon.


----------



## plowin-fire

Just picked up some calcium chloride today. Does anyone add any type of corrosion inhibitors to it, or just use it straight?


----------



## VS Innovation

plowin-fire said:


> Just picked up some calcium chloride today. Does anyone add any type of corrosion inhibitors to it, or just use it straight?


We used some corrosion inhibitors with this last storm that came through. I have no idea how the guys filled the tank or how much they put in (sometimes a simple step is like reinventing the wheel!). All of our tanks fill from the bottom and they filled from the top for some reason I believe. Either way it sounded like the inhibitors turned everything to foam in our 2700 gallon sprayer. We have never had any foaming issues when running road guard. I guess they said the wash bay of the shop had 3 inches of foam after the truck filled up the second time! We are learning everyday this year as we are trying new products to compare our original mixture to.


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## plowin-fire

What did you use?


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## Joe Barrett

This site http://chlorideconscious.com is trying to 'help the environment". I found a lot of the stuff informative but they have a guide to how to use liquid ice melters as a pdf and they'll send you a printed booklet too. I learned a whole lot from them and SIMA.org has some good info too


----------



## delcosnow1

I have been pretreating with liquid for 2 seasons so far. I want to use it during and post storm, is there a risk of it getting diluted from melting and runoff and causing the brine on the lot to freeze? I am doing a hospital this year and they want bare pavement. I am in eastern Pa so temps are not crazy cold.
thanks


----------



## Joe Barrett

In my opinion, yes it will be diluted. I would lay down a light app of solids in areas that have runoff on pavement when the temps will be below freezing. Ideally pile your pushes where they will melt directly in to sewers or on the low end of the lots to eliminate this rework. Liquids shouldn't be applied before rain/runoff could wash them away. A liquid with a very thick organic (thermapointR etc) could stand up to runoff but spot treatment with solids would be my tactic after pushing.


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## ocplowco

Has anyone ever used TETRA FLAKE instead of doe flake to add into their brine is their any difference. Here is the data sheet.

General Description
TETRA Flake calcium chloride is a white, flaked,dihydrate product with 80 weight percent calciumchloride.
Applications Chemical Industry.Provides good source of soluble calcium Oilfield.
Can be used as fluid for drilling, cementing,and work over operations Ready Mix Concrete.Accelerates setting times Snow and Ice Melting.Facilitates deicing on highways and pavement Soil Conditioning.
Stabilizes roadbeds and facilitates salt remediation Availability TETRA Flake is made in the USA.
TETRA’s new flake product is available for shipment from our El Dorado, Arkansas facility.
FLAKE PACKAGING
Package Pallet Size
Units/Pallet
Pallets/Truckload
50 lb Plastic Bag
A variety of palletization and stow options are available.1000 kg Bulk Bag Safety and Handling

TETRA Flake dry calcium chloride when in solution forms a strong salt solution. Wear appropriate
protective, impervious clothing. Wear safety glasses with non-flexible side shields or chemical goggles for
proper protection of the eyes. Wear appropriate protective non-leather protective gloves and boots.
Chemical protective gloves and boots such as PVC or Nitrile are recommended. Leather products do not
offer adequate protection and will dehydrate with resultant shrinkage and possible destruction. This
product should be handled in areas with proper ventilation. Before using this product, refer to the
SDS which is available on the Company’s website for complete safety and handling guidelines.
PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
Chemical Formula CaCl 2. 2H 20 Appearance White flakes
Bulk Density Approx. 50 lb/cubic foot CHEMICAL PROPERTIES Calcium Chloride (CaCl 2)* 80 wt% minimum
Total Alkali Chlorides as NaCl** 6.0 % maximum Total Magnesium Chloride (MgCl2)** 0.5% maximum
*EDTA titration similar to ASTM E449-08
**Active ingredient basis
PARTICLE
SIZE
Screen Number:
Mass %


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## 86 CJ

Never heard of it before now, searched and only found it on there own site. I don't see any advantage of it unless its way cheaper per bag to use with brine.


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## Broncslefty7

sounds like an advertisement


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## ocplowco

no not an advertisement it's the only thing I can get down by the beach.


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## ocplowco

I'm new to liquid brine and all I have read is about is down flake. don't want to buy a pallette if it is the wrong stuff.


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## Broncslefty7

you need a different hydrometer if you are making calcium brine, we used to make all of ours from dowe flake but its a night mare with the formulas and how much you end up with at the end. we found a place to by cheap liquid calcium chloride, its about 5 cents more per gallon that us making it ourselves.


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## ocplowco

ya have all the equipment just not sure about this product.


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## ocplowco

maybe I'll send Jim Johnson a pm.


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## Kubota 8540

As in (public message? LOL) https://www.amazon.com/B61809-0400-Sp-Gr-Calcium-Chloride-Salometer/dp/B00551P3Q0


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## ocplowco

Hey kubota just one question i cant find Dow flake around me so i was planning on using Tetra calcium chloride flake will it work.. thank you

CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
Calcium Chloride (CaCl2)* 80 wt% minimum
Total Alkali Chlorides as
NaCl**
6.0 % maximum
Total Magnesium Chloride
(MgCl2)**
0.5% maximum
*EDTA titration similar to ASTM E449-08


----------



## spyda

Kubota 8540 said:


> Kubota 8540 do you happen to have all of the specs associated with making the liquid sprayer setup i.e., pump, valves, nozzles, boom and wand sprayer? whatever i need.... I have a 2003 Chevy Silvy 2500HD 8ft bed. Plan on rear snowman blade on back of truck. I can't seem to find the thread. Although, I remember it was about $500-$600 to make the setup. Text or call me at 616-635-9899 with any info. Snow is on the way and I'm trying to get setup. Albeit a lil late but nonetheless need to get it done. asap. THanks.


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## Broncslefty7

Road guard for me is like 9 dollars a gallon. We use the ibg and it works pretty well and it’s only 2.65 a gallon.


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## rick W

Anyone roll their own sidewalk sprayers? 
We started with brine last year and still learning. Back pack sprayers didnt work great. Tipped over in truck, plastic broke etc.

Looking for a 10-15gal tank/cart set up that could even be a gravity drain. Walks only 2-3' wide. Would like to see pics and feedback from anyone that made a good little set up. I know there are $500 to $1000 sprayers with electric pumps etc...looking for simpler easy solution that would work most of the time to pre treat etc.


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## Broncslefty7

I bought a used snow ex electric sprayer. It works well but still flips in the truck and brakes the nozzles. I think they are like 800 new. I paid like 350 for mine.


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## rick W

Broncslefty7 said:


> I bought a used snow ex electric sprayer. It works well but still flips in the truck and brakes the nozzles. I think they are like 800 new. I paid like 350 for mine.


Did you get the sl80? happy with it? looks like they are close to $1000. :-(


----------



## Low Salt Diet

With regard to liquid application, do you use it with freezing rain or rain with a flash freeze, we use thawrox in excess where I work, first year for salt brine ( thawrox was only salt available to make brine). It's to be applied on sidewalks only by maintenance staff. Snow contractor is totally against it.
Brine was successfully used at a smaller hospital I worked at ( same corporation) and the snow contractor even got on board and is still using it.


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## Broncslefty7

i generally switch to granular ice its going to be freezing rain, just to play it safe


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## Low Salt Diet

Thanks, i'm getting to the point I'm second guessing myself, last week I used thawrox just to be safe. Our hospital site gets sued quite often, unfortunately emphasis on Snow Management has been Reactive instead of Proactive, when someone falls you put more salt down.


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## OzarksL

Ok can someone tell me what goes on the other end of this bulkhead? Pipe going to the bottom? If so can I just use the valve already on the tank. This is not my set up but I am copying it for the most part, it is a members, and hopefully he will chime in with some advice. Thanks


----------



## 86 CJ

OzarksL said:


> Ok can someone tell me what goes on the other end of this bulkhead? Pipe going to the bottom? If so can I just use the valve already on the tank. This is not my set up but I am copying it for the most part, it is a members, and hopefully he will chime in with some advice. Thanks
> 
> View attachment 175205


We have built that setup in the past and did not add that bulkhead. Looks like they might have just added it to the suction side and not used the bottom one that's already on the tank. Maybe they drain down the top half of brine from first tank without sucking the left over dirt and sediment from the salt brine batch, just my thoughts, could be wrong.


----------



## OzarksL

86 CJ said:


> We have built that setup in the past and did not add that bulkhead. Looks like they might have just added it to the suction side and not used the bottom one that's already on the tank. Maybe they drain down the top half of brine from first tank without sucking the left over dirt and sediment from the salt brine batch, just my thoughts, could be wrong.


Thanks, if you or anyone has some good pics of a setup I'd really appreciate it


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## ocplowco

I think they are using the bulkhead as a siphon break. once the first tank reaches the bulk head it stops the brine from over filling the second tank. just my 2cents


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## Broncslefty7

Spray truck is almost done, just needs letters now.


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## 86 CJ

Looks Great Bronc, hope you get some good use out of it this season, way to step up your liquids game


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## Broncslefty7

Thanks! You should see the lights I put on it.....


----------



## plowin-fire

Question about adding calcium chloride to brine. Can I add it at 10% and the store it in the bulk tank? Or add the 10% in the sprayer and use right away?


----------



## Broncslefty7

everyone does it different, i add it right into the tank for the entire batch. i know VSI i has a pretty large operation and they add it rite in the truck when they are filling it.


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## Broncslefty7

i want to find a way to get my brine to be red or blue. i havnt figured that part out yet though....


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## VS Innovation

You will really enjoy that truck for deicing! Great job on the install, we really enjoy seeing out customers equipment when it is set up!


----------



## VS Innovation

plowin-fire said:


> Question about adding calcium chloride to brine. Can I add it at 10% and the store it in the bulk tank? Or add the 10% in the sprayer and use right away?


Great question! You are not wrong either way. The only reason we keep our calcium chloride and our brine separate is to ensure that our margins are as high as possible for every event. This also allows us to standardize our application rate per acre for our operators. Here is a simple example as to how we operate.

Air Temp - 17*F
Ground Temp - 15*F
Mixture - 90/10
Application rate (depending on snow pack) - 80-90 gallons per acre.

Lets say that we had an 80/20 mixture in our storage tanks. The mixture is very potent for the temperature range and applying at the 80-90 gallons per acre would likely be wasting 10-20 gallons per acre. This would require our operators to change the application rate based upon temperature and mixture. There could be an infinite possibility of mixtures vs temperature vs application rate. This can get very confusing with no way to track the process being utilized.

Keeping the products separate also allows our company to be very adaptive to changing temperatures and conditions. It is not uncommon to have the temperature here in MN drop 10-20 degrees after a front moves through. If we simply had 90/10 mixed and need 70/30 by the end of the night we would not be able to use the 90/10.

Separate storage also eliminates the need for extensive storage of every mixture. Our company is planning on using 7000-9000 gallons of brine per storm with a mixture of 0-30% calcium chloride. This would require a tremendous amount of product to be on hand.

All in all premixing your calcium chloride does work, it is just very good to be aware of the potential cost and logistical issues that can be present with premixing. We have a video up on our youtube channel (Voigt Smith Innovation) that shows our brine making set up that is worth watching! It really helps demonstrate how easy it is to plumb your tanks together while keeping all of your products separate.

Sorry for the sermon.... If you cannot tell I really enjoying talking about liquid :hammerhead:


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> i want to find a way to get my brine to be red or blue. i havnt figured that part out yet though....


Hey Broncs! We have thought about this also but never found it to be very feasible. I am assuming you would like it to be more visible for your customers in a pre treatment?

In a post treatment we have never had an issue with seeing the lines cut in the snow, but a pre treatment looks as if you are spraying water with white lines left over (maybe). We thought about food coloring, but would need to order it in totes to change the color of our brine which is not cost effective.

We have found that as long as our customers can see the result of the pre treatment or post treatment we have never been questioned about what/where we are applying the liquid. If you do any experimenting please let me know as I have always been curious!


----------



## Broncslefty7

not so much for seeing it, but people have commented on the brown color from the IBG, there is a company out there that sells non staining brine dyes, but with the brown from the IBG its almost impossible. without the IBG once the "dust" settles from our brine the stuff is crystal clear. it would be nice to spray a blue product, i think more customers would understand it at that point.


----------



## VS Innovation

We are running a new product from Envirotech Services call AMP. From what we have been told and understand it is a 32% calcium chloride blended with corrosion inhibitors and melting inhibitors that has been refined to take out the color. It does not contain any organic material. We have been told that it is on par or better than the RG8 we have been running in the past which does contain a sugar cane molasses. 

This might be a good fit for you as it is clear and carries the same potency. We are going to test AMP side by side with RG8, IBG, FUSION this year in a video. We are holding off on recommending AMP 100% in colder climates until we see what the post treatment results actually are. If you want to PM me I can get you our Envirotech sales reps contact and you could discuss the products with him. They also carry a product called APEX that we are very interested in trying this year also.


----------



## Broncslefty7

hey remember when i called you a few weeks ago about the mold floating on top of the tank? it was yeast that had fermented over the summer from the IBG......

everything besides pro melts product magic o and ibg has been 9-10 dollars per gallon, and liquid isnt that big in our state so theres only 2-3 dealers carrying the IBG as it is. rite now i am paying 2.65 a gallon for the IBG or the MAgic o


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> hey remember when i called you a few weeks ago about the mold floating on top of the tank? it was yeast that had fermented over the summer from the IBG......
> 
> everything besides pro melts product magic o and ibg has been 9-10 dollars per gallon, and liquid isnt that big in our state so theres only 2-3 dealers carrying the IBG as it is. rite now i am paying 2.65 a gallon for the IBG or the MAgic o


Yes I do remember. It is one of the main reasons we stay away from 100% organic products. They do not store well and tend to break down or in this case grow. Let me pass our sales reps info on to you. We have been able to get our customers AMP for around the price that you are paying for IBG as long as they can handle a tanker load at a time. We also supply a lot of our customers with the calcium chloride in totes as long as the shipping does not kill the cost effectiveness.


----------



## Broncslefty7

sounds good to me


----------



## plowin-fire

The calcium chloride I got is bright blue.


----------



## Broncslefty7

Cool! From where????


----------



## Broncslefty7

http://www.chromatechcolors.com/industries/de-icing-dyes/

This is what I found


----------



## plowin-fire

Broncslefty7 said:


> Cool! From where????


A dairy plant that uses calcium chloride in their freezing molds. Smells like chocolate and vanilla sometimes too.

What about pool/pond dye from a landscape supply place? Seen people use it when they spray lawns. Doesnt take much.


----------



## Broncslefty7

That’s not dye lol, that’s the metal in the **** landscrapers spray that react with Chems in the water.

Cobalt turns the water blue
Manganese turns the water purple

Etc etc.

The chlorine in the water oxidizes the metal and boom you have stains everywhere.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

You could very easily use tracking dye to color it blue. A little goes a loooong way. We use it when spraying cracks in parking lots with pre emergent to make sure nothing gets missed.


----------



## Broncslefty7

Still the IBG is a putrid Brown. No way around that.


----------



## 3men

Broncslefty7 said:


> i want to find a way to get my brine to be red or blue. i havnt figured that part out yet though....


Have you tried the indicator dyes used in weed control applications? https://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/...MI1Nimkrn41wIVh5V-Ch1utAGUEAQYBSABEgLI7fD_BwE


----------



## 3men

New to this forum. New to forums in general. We just added a 300 gallon liquid set up last year and a 3,000 gallon storage tank. We have had considerable success in selling it in our market this year. We do lots of flat rate agreements and have a detailed contract. Currently we don't have any language that talks about liquid anti-icing. Anybody have something that you'd like to share that I can take to my attorney as a starting point? I looked at the advanced contract clauses doc from SIMA but it doesn't have anything like what we need.


----------



## Broncslefty7

Sprayed this lot after plowing at 10:15. It snowed moderately until around 1:30. Air temps where floating around 28. I did not get a surface temp reading. This picture was taken rite about 3:45 am before scraping or doing any clean up

Total storm was 6". I figure about 2 inches fell on top of the liquid.


----------



## VS Innovation

That was very similar to our first storm here. We got around 4-6 inches of snow on thawed ground. Then the temps fell off the face of the earth allowing 4" to stick and creating a layer of frozen snow pack. We scraped what we could off, sprayed and let it work, scraped off again with a lighter pass of liquid and we had our lots completely bare.

That looks like that lot should have scraped clean for you! Pretty impressive results with that much additional moisture falling after the initial de-icing!


----------



## Broncslefty7

yeah that was applying at about 60g Per acre. you can tell where the motor went kaboom....


----------



## 86 CJ

Good Stuff Bronc. We did some post treating here in MD after storm came through with liquids, worked great. Ground temps were way to high early in the storm we got here, amazing how many guys were pre treating with salt and the county and state were spraying all roads. Ground temps were 42 when snow started......total waste


----------



## Broncslefty7

ill salt or spray super light, so i can bill for it.....

:terribletowel:


----------



## 86 CJ

Haaaa, yes some were making $$$ and a lot were giving away $$$


----------



## Broncslefty7

I’ll get some good application videos and maybe a solid time lapse video In the next storm or two.


----------



## spyda

Broncslefty7 said:


> I'll get some good application videos and maybe a solid time lapse video In the next storm or two.


Hey Broncslefty7, I have a 300 gal low profile tank on my Chevy Silvy 2500 HD 8 ft bed. I have a Pacer trash pump 5.5 hp. To build my own sprayer, what components would I need to buy to complete the build? I asked a couple times on here but no replies... I know I need 2" hose which I have about 5 to 6 feet of now. I know I need nozzles and spray tips and a couple 2" shutoff valves & a remote control shutoff valve for the boom. (Trip to Tractor Supply in the morn) Do you have a list of the things I would need? Not trying to run back and forth out to tractor supply nearest one is like 20 miles away from me one way. I also plan on making the spray bar out of metal using the tips/nozzles. I also Need about 10 feet of feet of 3/4" hose for the spray bar & return line to tank. 
Any help would be much appreciated. I know your setup is much bigger than mines will be but you're there already and I'm trying to get there. Thanks Broncslefty7 and anyone else out there who inputs... Recent Pics and description(s) would be great. The posts on here seem so old and outdated... Again, thanks!


----------



## Broncslefty7

I bought mine from VSI.


----------



## 86 CJ

spyda said:


> Hey Broncslefty7, I have a 300 gal low profile tank on my Chevy Silvy 2500 HD 8 ft bed. I have a Pacer trash pump 5.5 hp. To build my own sprayer, what components would I need to buy to complete the build? I asked a couple times on here but no replies... I know I need 2" hose which I have about 5 to 6 feet of now. I know I need nozzles and spray tips and a couple 2" shutoff valves & a remote control shutoff valve for the boom. (Trip to Tractor Supply in the morn) Do you have a list of the things I would need? Not trying to run back and forth out to tractor supply nearest one is like 20 miles away from me one way. I also plan on making the spray bar out of metal using the tips/nozzles. I also Need about 10 feet of feet of 3/4" hose for the spray bar & return line to tank.
> Any help would be much appreciated. I know your setup is much bigger than mines will be but you're there already and I'm trying to get there. Thanks Broncslefty7 and anyone else out there who inputs... Recent Pics and description(s) would be great. The posts on here seem so old and outdated... Again, thanks!


Spyda

Search on sprayer builds or anything sprayer related posts. There are pics of builds from Me, kabota and others from very cheap to more $$ and complex. I built my first sprayer setup super cheap 4 years ago from looking at posts from others and asking a couple questions. I used parts from lowes, and Trac supply and it worked fine, then just made better builds from there with better parts(Banjo) offline and local supply stores. Find a 2" T out of the pump, adapters to make everything 1" to boom and return to tank and some 1" valves. You will need a 1" teejet or banjo switch to control the boom on/off as well wired up to a 12v source. Try 1" pvc for the boom. Here is a pic of my first setup then. Hope this helps man


----------



## Broncslefty7

CJ check this yeast fermenting in my tank.....


----------



## Broncslefty7

Pre wet liquid for sale! Lol or free samples available. Take your pick! Haha.


----------



## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7 said:


> Pre wet liquid for sale! Lol or free samples available. Take your pick! Haha.
> 
> View attachment 175436


Wow man, ive never seen ours that bad

Its crazy, the product works well when mixed and used right in with low temps though.


----------



## Broncslefty7

So I used some of the old stuff with the yeast the other night and just filtered it out. It worked awesome haha


----------



## fireside

If it snows tonight I will get to try my first ever liquid trial. The plan is to start with sidewalks and crosswalks. Than on to prewetting. I think in my area that's the key currently I use magic salt but it's not always needed due to temps.Thanks to the help of a plowsite member.


----------



## Broncslefty7

well that 2" blast totally caught me off guard this morning.... we sprayed at like 1 am last night and woke up at 6 with 1.5 inches on the ground.


----------



## spyda

86 CJ said:


> Spyda
> 
> Search on sprayer builds or anything sprayer related posts. There are pics of builds from Me, kabota and others from very cheap to more $$ and complex. I built my first sprayer setup super cheap 4 years ago from looking at posts from others and asking a couple questions. I used parts from lowes, and Trac supply and it worked fine, then just made better builds from there with better parts(Banjo) offline and local supply stores. Find a 2" T out of the pump, adapters to make everything 1" to boom and return to tank and some 1" valves. You will need a 1" teejet or banjo switch to control the boom on/off as well wired up to a 12v source. Try 1" pvc for the boom. Here is a pic of my first setup then. Hope this helps man
> 
> View attachment 175422


Man thanks 86 CJ! I have that exact pump. I have a low profile tote. Have a couple 2 inch hoses that came with the pump one is a flat like fireman hose with nozzle. I want to put a reel sprayer for sidewalks & hard to reach with plows areas on it too. I hope to have it built this weekend if i can get all the stuff at Tractor supply or lowes it will be! 
I shall do it like you said. It's my first one. I'll be using Liquid Calcium Cloride from Liquid Solutions. They are putting a 4200 or 10,000 gallong ballast tank of it in my town just mere miles from me. I'll post pics and keep you guys abreast and ask more questions too  This will be my first liquid setup. I have no storage area for bulk salt plus they say this works down to -25 so we shall see. The salt stopped working yesterday it was 7 degrees and a brisk wind. We got 6 inches during the day. i plowed from 11am to 12 midnite. 30 residentials no commercial. I was exhausted. And we got 3 more inches tomorrow. Gotta sleep. Talk to you guys later. Peace


----------



## fireside

I have a question about pre treating sidewalks. It's new to me this year. We have done the sidewalks twice so far with liquid. First run was just ok yesterday using pre and post treatment it was very quick and they were prefect in 5 minutes. So How much product should I be using? Is it better make the whole surface damp or wet. The sidewalks range from 4' to 14' wide


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## fireside

A huge thanks
*Broncslefty7 for the samples and some great insight into liquids! Next is the pre wet setup. *


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## Broncslefty7

I think for pre treating damp is ok, because you just want that fine layer of crust once the liquid dries. That will prevent the bond to the surface. For post treating I think visibly wet is what you need I am thinking around 1 gallon should do 7-800 sq ft?


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## VS Innovation

Hey guys sorry for the delay in some of these messages here! We have been slammed busy. Ill try to help answer some of these questions with the others.


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## VS Innovation

spyda said:


> Hey Broncslefty7, I have a 300 gal low profile tank on my Chevy Silvy 2500 HD 8 ft bed. I have a Pacer trash pump 5.5 hp. To build my own sprayer, what components would I need to buy to complete the build? I asked a couple times on here but no replies... I know I need 2" hose which I have about 5 to 6 feet of now. I know I need nozzles and spray tips and a couple 2" shutoff valves & a remote control shutoff valve for the boom. (Trip to Tractor Supply in the morn) Do you have a list of the things I would need? Not trying to run back and forth out to tractor supply nearest one is like 20 miles away from me one way. I also plan on making the spray bar out of metal using the tips/nozzles. I also Need about 10 feet of feet of 3/4" hose for the spray bar & return line to tank.
> Any help would be much appreciated. I know your setup is much bigger than mines will be but you're there already and I'm trying to get there. Thanks Broncslefty7 and anyone else out there who inputs... Recent Pics and description(s) would be great. The posts on here seem so old and outdated... Again, thanks!


There are quite a few options depending on how you want the unit to perform and what application rate numbers you are looking to hit. I am sure that you have read our posts, but we are strong advocates for the GPS control. We honestly will not even sell a sprayer without the GPS rate control on it. But I will explain the difference for you on how we would set up the system with out it.

With the GPS rate control we do not control the flow at the boom, instead we let the servo valve control our flow and leave the boom 100 percent open flow (the boom can flow slightly more than the flow rates our system can produce). If you choose a system without the control you control the flow at the boom by the tip size. This means you will need to dial in the application rate to a set speed of the vehicle and the engine. You have more than enough power present for the single lane boom. We run a similar engine but it is needed when we are seeing high speed post treatment application with the three lane boom running.

A bypass is a must or the seal will be damaged when the pump is deadheaded (no flow). I am short on time but if feel free to call me and I can discuss the best options for your current set up and can help you source the parts. I always enjoy helping guys get going, but you will only be as successful as your knowledge on the process and the performance of your equipment. 507-317-4093. I look forward to talking to you!


----------



## VS Innovation

fireside said:


> I have a question about pre treating sidewalks. It's new to me this year. We have done the sidewalks twice so far with liquid. First run was just ok yesterday using pre and post treatment it was very quick and they were prefect in 5 minutes. So How much product should I be using? Is it better make the whole surface damp or wet. The sidewalks range from 4' to 14' wide


A typical pretreatment number is around 30-50 gallons per acre. When we pretreat we usually run around 50 gallons per acre, but our climate is also very cold and not the best for pretreating in the later winter months. The direct math tell you at 40 gallons per acre you will be putting down a gallon every 1000 square feet roughly. We just make sure the surface is damp/wet. You do not need to see the product pooling or running off. The idea behind the pretreatment is just to have a barrier between the snow and the surface. If it can handle some melting that is a plus to us! In a warmer climate, or like in our area now with warm temps and warm ground temps the pretreatment will be able to handle some snow. The exact amount is unknown as there are many variables that can change the results (air temp during event, moisture content of snow, traffic and so on).


----------



## TD BOBCAT

just curious as to what some costs are for you vs our cost out here in Alberta Canada. Our Salt landed in our yard runs $161.00/tonne or .07/lb or $140/ton. We are using Beet55 rafinate blended at 65%salt brine 35% Beet juice. Total cost of product made (not applied) is .32/litre or $1.20/USG. We have been using and experimenting with liquids for the past 8 or so years. Safe to say we have been a pioneer in our field for sure. Hiway maintenance companies are just getting on the band wagon around here to get into something other than straight salt brine.


----------



## spyda

VS Innovation said:


> There are quite a few options depending on how you want the unit to perform and what application rate numbers you are looking to hit. I am sure that you have read our posts, but we are strong advocates for the GPS control. We honestly will not even sell a sprayer without the GPS rate control on it. But I will explain the difference for you on how we would set up the system with out it.
> 
> With the GPS rate control we do not control the flow at the boom, instead we let the servo valve control our flow and leave the boom 100 percent open flow (the boom can flow slightly more than the flow rates our system can produce). If you choose a system without the control you control the flow at the boom by the tip size. This means you will need to dial in the application rate to a set speed of the vehicle and the engine. You have more than enough power present for the single lane boom. We run a similar engine but it is needed when we are seeing high speed post treatment application with the three lane boom running.
> 
> A bypass is a must or the seal will be damaged when the pump is deadheaded (no flow). I am short on time but if feel free to call me and I can discuss the best options for your current set up and can help you source the parts. I always enjoy helping guys get going, but you will only be as successful as your knowledge on the process and the performance of your equipment. 507-317-4093. I look forward to talking to you!


----------



## spyda

Vs Innovation wow! Thanks for your feedback. I am brand new to deicing. Product is Liquid Calcium Chloride from Liquid Solutions. My low pro tote had a huge crack in the underside of it. I have since purchased another tote which came as u see it with 2 flojet 4.5 gpm pumps installed. Pic enclosed. The spray boom is just pvc with drilled holes in it. It sprays out one side strong and the other weakly or not at all. I've ordered Remco 5 gpm pumps from Dultmeier. I plan on Quick connecting all plumbing. It's all 3/4". I have enough hose, but need to find a good hose reel & wand for sidewalk / walkway spraying. How much is your GPS Control kit for such a setup as this & what comes with it? Any recommendations on my setup shown would be much appreciated. I'm just doing one lane but my buddies with flat bed want to do 2-3 lane with their trucks. Everybody feel free to input / feedback. I'm brand new. Thanks in advance. Everybody have a blessed and great new year!


----------



## spyda

86 CJ said:


> Spyda
> 
> Search on sprayer builds or anything sprayer related posts. There are pics of builds from Me, kabota and others from very cheap to more $$ and complex. I built my first sprayer setup super cheap 4 years ago from looking at posts from others and asking a couple questions. I used parts from lowes, and Trac supply and it worked fine, then just made better builds from there with better parts(Banjo) offline and local supply stores. Find a 2" T out of the pump, adapters to make everything 1" to boom and return to tank and some 1" valves. You will need a 1" teejet or banjo switch to control the boom on/off as well wired up to a 12v source. Try 1" pvc for the boom. Here is a pic of my first setup then. Hope this helps man
> 
> View attachment 175422


 86CJ, here is the new setup I have just purchased. Pumps seen below are 4.5gpm FloJet 12v 40 PSI. One on the right sprays pretty good but stops after a minute then take a bit to come back on. The other doesn't work properly. I just ordered 5gpm Remco AQ5500 HB pumps from Dultmeier to replace those two. All Plumbing is 3/4". I want to put some quick connect couplers thoughout the plumbing to make things simpler and more efficient as well. I am brand new to deicing and any feedback and input and ideas for improving this setup would be much appreciated and seriously considered. Thanks for your responses and have a blessed new years!


----------



## VS Innovation

spyda said:


> 86CJ, here is the new setup I have just purchased. Pumps seen below are 4.5gpm FloJet 12v 40 PSI. One on the right sprays pretty good but stops after a minute then take a bit to come back on. The other doesn't work properly. I just ordered 5gpm Remco AQ5500 HB pumps from Dultmeier to replace those two. All Plumbing is 3/4". I want to put some quick connect couplers thoughout the plumbing to make things simpler and more efficient as well. I am brand new to deicing and any feedback and input and ideas for improving this setup would be much appreciated and seriously considered. Thanks for your responses and have a blessed new years!
> View attachment 175931


Hey Spyda,

Our very first systems were not far off from what you are doing. Some advice to help answer some of your questions. Be careful on the size hole that you drill in the booms. Holes that are too large will negatively affect the flow across the boom section since you are dealing with very low flow rates. With that being said, even 10 gallons per minute (if the pumps are actually putting out that much) will yield some higher spray speeds even to apply a higher application like 80 gallons per acre. Without knowing the exact width of the boom it is hard to say where your final speed will be but this is not hard to figure out with some flow testing and a little bit of math!

We avoid diaphragm pumps like the plague. A lot of companies run them but we have never had good luck with them. Make sure they are a continuous duty cycle motor or they will not last long for you unless you keep in mind the fact you need to let them cool before running them again.

I always like to see the boom be one piece across the back of the truck. This allows us to pump a jet or hole in the center of the truck and helps by not leaving any dead areas across the spray bar. You could always install two tees in the PVC boom itself and run a feed line from each pump to the tees. 6" - 7.5" spacing for the holes has worked very well for us in the post treatment application.

As for our GPS components it depends on how capable you need the system to be. They range anywhere from $1200 - $2700+ depending on plumbing and the flow meter. Your system would require some replumbing to tie the two pumps together into the servo and flow meter. In all honesty you would be better off investing that money into a more capable spray system. We sell both a 205 or 305 gallon sprayer with the full gps controls in a base model with a single lane boom for $4750. Something to consider as you progress with the liquid process.

Let us know when the system is up and running and we can help you tune in the system to make sure you are successful with the process!


----------



## Shane Goetsch

Spyda,

We just received our gps, controller, and valve components from VSI a week or so ago and added it to our tank system. We started with one like yours. The components VSI recommends are awesome, being able to see your application rate from the cab of the truck has helped us a lot and we are able to make educated decisions because we know exactly how much we are applying. The only thing I would do different from what we have done thus far is to just jump in and buy the 205 or 305 unit that comes on a skid and be done with it


----------



## VS Innovation

Shane Goetsch said:


> Spyda,
> 
> We just received our gps, controller, and valve components from VSI a week or so ago and added it to our tank system. We started with one like yours. The components VSI recommends are awesome, being able to see your application rate from the cab of the truck has helped us a lot and we are able to make educated decisions because we know exactly how much we are applying. The only thing I would do different from what we have done thus far is to just jump in and buy the 205 or 305 unit that comes on a skid and be done with it


Shane,
Great to see you on here! Did you get a chance to swap out to the larger Honda with the two inch pump over that small one inch?

The control systems really do take a tremendous amount of guess work out of operating the equipment. I was out last night, snow fall around 3", air temp -5*F, ground temp -10 to -14*F. We were running a 80/20 blend which is a bit light but we are low on calcium at the moment. I made my first pass at 100 gallons per acre and could see that there was not enough product down to handle the extreme temperatures we were facing. I then adjusted my controller to 115 gallons per acre and was producing pavement behind the sprayer. Without this information present I would not have been able to understand how much I was putting down and how much additional product I should apply. I ran 267 gallons through my sprayer and sprayed 2.3 acres which comes out to an application rate of 116 gallons per acre. The accuracy of a setup with the rate control is honestly unbelievable.

Like I have mentioned before, I will gladly help anyone with builds and information! There is some serious truth to Shane's comment about purchasing a unit vs building. I can honestly say that we have spent tremendous amounts of money building and re building our spray equipment in our early days. Always reach out before you are going to tackle building, the last thing I want to tell you is to start over. Our systems reflect the fact that I have built and rebuilt, broken many things in the field (ask about breaking the bypass on our hook truck at 3 am in the morning sometime when the system is running 90 PSI, 60 ft geyser, and a complete brine bath for the truck!). The parts for this equipment can add up very quickly, the last thing we want is you guys spending money and then spend more to modify.


----------



## Shane Goetsch

Yes, we did put the 1” pump to rest and installed the 2”, the 2” works much better, I don’t think we really needed the extra flow but the engine is way more reliable. Now we are learning the importance of having a self fill option and getting everything secured properly. Did I mention it’s probably better to just get the complete setup from the beginning, lol, oh yea see above post. We did make up a batch of calcium chloride and now that we have the application rate dialed in we are going to do some comparison testing between road guard, and a 32% calcium mix, mixed in a 80/20 solution, depending on temps of coarse. Thanks for all your help!


----------



## Broncslefty7

Here you guys go, some of our liquid and one of VSI sprayer in action.


----------



## Shane Goetsch

Nice video Bronc! That is a nice setup for sure. What been your experience, success and failures with different mixes?


----------



## Broncslefty7

We like running 90-10 ibg or even 95-5 ibg


----------



## Shane Goetsch

What made you decide on IBG, right now our only local option for a hot mix is calcium chloride (mix it yourself) or road guard. Have you tried other mixes? Thanks.


----------



## Broncslefty7

We are pretty
Much the only ones that I know of using liquid in CT. I could be wrong and probably am but so far IBG is all I could find in CT.


----------



## J & A

Anyone know of a distributor in New York lower Hudson Valley area for the road guard8 or ibg ? 
I have been using liquid for this year and have a supplier for calcium but a little on the pricey side looking for alternative choices


----------



## USGLandscaping

VS Innovation said:


> I know there area quite a few threads started about liquid de-icing, but I would like to start a thread for any questions related to the entire process from mixing, spraying and sprayer setups, to the final result.
> 
> Our company has been using liquid as our only means of de-icing for the last 4 seasons and have a very large knowledge base on the entire process. We have designed and built every sprayer and brine maker we use.
> 
> No question will go unanswered, and I can promise no rude remarks or comments will be made by myself. I am here to give accurate information and to help clear up any unknowns you may have!


Where would i be able to get the right information on mixing and what's the right materials to use for residential properties. Its my 1st year servicing multiple accounts. All information would be helpful


----------



## spyda

VS Innovation said:


> Hey Spyda,
> 
> Our very first systems were not far off from what you are doing. Some advice to help answer some of your questions. Be careful on the size hole that you drill in the booms. Holes that are too large will negatively affect the flow across the boom section since you are dealing with very low flow rates. With that being said, even 10 gallons per minute (if the pumps are actually putting out that much) will yield some higher spray speeds even to apply a higher application like 80 gallons per acre. Without knowing the exact width of the boom it is hard to say where your final speed will be but this is not hard to figure out with some flow testing and a little bit of math!
> 
> We avoid diaphragm pumps like the plague. A lot of companies run them but we have never had good luck with them. Make sure they are a continuous duty cycle motor or they will not last long for you unless you keep in mind the fact you need to let them cool before running them again.
> 
> I always like to see the boom be one piece across the back of the truck. This allows us to pump a jet or hole in the center of the truck and helps by not leaving any dead areas across the spray bar. You could always install two tees in the PVC boom itself and run a feed line from each pump to the tees. 6" - 7.5" spacing for the holes has worked very well for us in the post treatment application.
> 
> As for our GPS components it depends on how capable you need the system to be. They range anywhere from $1200 - $2700+ depending on plumbing and the flow meter. Your system would require some replumbing to tie the two pumps together into the servo and flow meter. In all honesty you would be better off investing that money into a more capable spray system. We sell both a 205 or 305 gallon sprayer with the full gps controls in a base model with a single lane boom for $4750. Something to consider as you progress with the liquid process.
> 
> Let us know when the system is up and running and we can help you tune in the system to make sure you are successful with the process!


----------



## spyda

VS innovation: Thanks for your feedback. I wish I could afford one of your units. I'm small time 1 truck 2003 Chevy Silvy 2500HD with front and back blades and the deicer system you see on my post. I was going to go with the trash pump, but went with something that was already set up and basically ready to go. 
In any event, I'm mainly doing residential driveways approx., 7.5 - 8 ft wide driveways which my blades are both 7'6" and the boom is approx. the same length. Pumps are 5gpm Remco, should have those tomorrow or Wednesday the 3rd. Far as the boom, drilled holes are small, maybe 10 on each side of the boom. Each side of boom is run off a pump with 1 pump running one side of boom or the spray wand. I plan on installing a tee or two somewhere in the boom line to have both pumps spraying to boom and/or spray wand. So a lil variation in the plumbing setup is forthcoming... Liquid laid down pretty well, could've been heavier but i blame that on the weak pumps. I'll send those pumps in for a rebuild and later keep for spares. I still have my 2 inch trash pump (pacer 5.5 hp) to use for another build nx Fall on another half ton silvy (1993). In reference to your lower cost GPS unit you'd have to show or send a link to me that I can view it and its pricing at and see if its something I actually need or can afford considering I'm just doing 1 lane residential driveways and just a couple small business lots! I thank you for your time and feedback on this - all of you guys as well! Take care and have a blessed New Year 2018. Do send me info on your GPS system or notify me if there's a good used (or returned unit) for sale lying around [ pray  ]


----------



## J & A

I would like to thank everyone for sharing all of their experience with liquid . Over the past few years my company began working the liquid into our snow removal operation as we maintain 14 miles of private mountain road . Gravity feed system for pre treatment and that was all I thought the salt brine was good for However after reading many posts for months from everyone on here I decided to build a new set up using pump system. I am starting to dial in and I am having very good results with the brine calcium mix just wanted to share that and thanks to all who post on here like vsi and many others . Jason


----------



## VS Innovation

J & A said:


> I would like to thank everyone for sharing all of their experience with liquid . Over the past few years my company began working the liquid into our snow removal operation as we maintain 14 miles of private mountain road . Gravity feed system for pre treatment and that was all I thought the salt brine was good for However after reading many posts for months from everyone on here I decided to build a new set up using pump system. I am starting to dial in and I am having very good results with the brine calcium mix just wanted to share that and thanks to all who post on here like vsi and many others . Jason


Great to hear your success! Please feel free to share any information on your process and application rates. We are working very hard to compile information that will help dial in blends and application rates for the climate zones that exist across the US. I speak a lot about what numbers we personally run and how we utilize the products, but want to be able to pass more information on to educate people in climates different than ours. We have already gathered a tremendous amount of data, but the more we have, the more we can understand exactly how this product is working.

Again, let us know if you have any questions! 2018 is going to be very big year for liquid and I am excited to share or test results once this season wraps up!


----------



## VS Innovation

spyda said:


> VS innovation: Thanks for your feedback. I wish I could afford one of your units. I'm small time 1 truck 2003 Chevy Silvy 2500HD with front and back blades and the deicer system you see on my post. I was going to go with the trash pump, but went with something that was already set up and basically ready to go.
> In any event, I'm mainly doing residential driveways approx., 7.5 - 8 ft wide driveways which my blades are both 7'6" and the boom is approx. the same length. Pumps are 5gpm Remco, should have those tomorrow or Wednesday the 3rd. Far as the boom, drilled holes are small, maybe 10 on each side of the boom. Each side of boom is run off a pump with 1 pump running one side of boom or the spray wand. I plan on installing a tee or two somewhere in the boom line to have both pumps spraying to boom and/or spray wand. So a lil variation in the plumbing setup is forthcoming... Liquid laid down pretty well, could've been heavier but i blame that on the weak pumps. I'll send those pumps in for a rebuild and later keep for spares. I still have my 2 inch trash pump (pacer 5.5 hp) to use for another build nx Fall on another half ton silvy (1993). In reference to your lower cost GPS unit you'd have to show or send a link to me that I can view it and its pricing at and see if its something I actually need or can afford considering I'm just doing 1 lane residential driveways and just a couple small business lots! I thank you for your time and feedback on this - all of you guys as well! Take care and have a blessed New Year 2018. Do send me info on your GPS system or notify me if there's a good used (or returned unit) for sale lying around [ pray  ]


Unfortunately we do not have any used systems at this point in time. I will keep you in mind if one does come in! If you are primarily doing driveways the controller will not be as important. As long as your pump/boom is calibrated it will work fine, likely with low amounts of waste. The waste really comes into play when we are applying in areas where our speed can fluctuate drastically. This is when a static flow will produce over and under application. You also do not need the larger pump for this application as you will likely leave it idling most of the time due to its high flow rates. As your business grows and you begin to take on parking lots and commercial property you will enjoy the performance of the gas pump over the electric. You are on the right path for starting out! Lean on us to learn, especially if you are seeing potential problems. I always get disappointed when someone gives up on liquid just because of one bad experience.

Do you have a general idea on the square footage of each driveway? The numbers would be very easy to run to help you know approximately how much liquid should be used on each property.


----------



## VS Innovation

Here is a great performance video of what the gas engines can do compared to the electric models. Feel free to skip through the talking at the beginning, the action shots are at the 7 minute mark. The truck is going 21-22 mph and the system is still keeping up at 80 gallons per acre!


----------



## tboeving

if this is mentioned somewhere then forgive me, im curious about bidding for liquid. Obviously know your costs but i hear some contractos upcharge their liquid and add truck time to it to come to a price and others just triple the liquid. Guessing whatever wins the contract while still netting good margins is what works best. Just seeing what maybe the majority does. TIA


----------



## spyda

VS Innovation said:


> Unfortunately we do not have any used systems at this point in time. I will keep you in mind if one does come in! If you are primarily doing driveways the controller will not be as important. As long as your pump/boom is calibrated it will work fine, likely with low amounts of waste. The waste really comes into play when we are applying in areas where our speed can fluctuate drastically. This is when a static flow will produce over and under application. You also do not need the larger pump for this application as you will likely leave it idling most of the time due to its high flow rates. As your business grows and you begin to take on parking lots and commercial property you will enjoy the performance of the gas pump over the electric. You are on the right path for starting out! Lean on us to learn, especially if you are seeing potential problems. I always get disappointed when someone gives up on liquid just because of one bad experience.
> 
> Do you have a general idea on the square footage of each driveway? The numbers would be very easy to run to help you know approximately how much liquid should be used on each property.


VS Innovation, man thanks for all of your feedback and input in helping me with this. I've been trying to do this on my own. I received my Remco pumps however they did not include the Remco part no AQFQ5S-12 quick attach NPT required for the pumps... so now i must wait on those Costing me a few extra days of down time. But I won't complain I'll just get it done soon as they show up! Meanwhile I'm working on my re-plumbing: Here's my thinking: 
I bought a 10 foot pc of 1" PVC and 1" to 3/4" Tee (maybe 3/4" HB would work better) to make the new 1 pc boom out of. I was going to follow your instruct and add a Tee for both pumps to be supplying the Boom and the wand. That would require a tee after the pumps I know but... add(1 - w/ valve for Spray wand or........ how would you suggest it be plumbed?) Was thinking of running spray tips on the new boom, how many & what type do you think I'd need? Flat tips, flood tips, boomless, a combo? Size wise, Typical residential Driveways are: 1 lane - 8 foot wide; 2 lane - 16 foot wide. Wanted to put two nozzles on the very opposite ends of boom (if needed) to spray out towards the edges of driveway or bldgs., and how many ??..?? spray tips in the middle to spray downward. For say on a 2 lane driveway 16ft wide x 30ft long, or a one lane driveway 8ft wide x 30ft long average and I will be spraying a couple city sidewalks off the spray wand. I have one hotel to do. Its nice size! They have a sloped entryway. Lot is about 125 yards wide x 175 yards long. Those are my immediate aspirations for the sprayer. Upon more business to deice then I'll be calling VS Innovation for a unit . Its definitely a direction I am maintaining focus on. But any suggestions on my particular build for the minimal needs I now have would be most appreciated. I plan on doing more but I must maintain footing first.  Thanks again. 
Spyda


----------



## spyda

spyda said:


> VS Innovation, man thanks for all of your feedback and input in helping me with this. I've been trying to do this on my own. I received my Remco pumps however they did not include the Remco part no AQFQ5S-12 quick attach NPT required for the pumps... so now i must wait on those Costing me a few extra days of down time. But I won't complain I'll just get it done soon as they show up! Meanwhile I'm working on my re-plumbing: Here's my thinking:
> I bought a 10 foot pc of 1" PVC and 1" to 3/4" Tee (maybe 3/4" HB would work better) to make the new 1 pc boom out of. I was going to follow your instruct and add a Tee for both pumps to be supplying the Boom and the wand. That would require a tee after the pumps I know but... add(1 - w/ valve for Spray wand or........ how would you suggest it be plumbed?) Was thinking of running spray tips on the new boom, how many & what type do you think I'd need? Flat tips, flood tips, boomless, a combo? Size wise, Typical residential Driveways are: 1 lane - 8 foot wide; 2 lane - 16 foot wide. Wanted to put two nozzles on the very opposite ends of boom (if needed) to spray out towards the edges of driveway or bldgs., and how many ??..?? spray tips in the middle to spray downward. For say on a 2 lane driveway 16ft wide x 30ft long, or a one lane driveway 8ft wide x 30ft long average and I will be spraying a couple city sidewalks off the spray wand. I have one hotel to do. Its nice size! They have a sloped entryway. Lot is about 125 yards wide x 175 yards long. Those are my immediate aspirations for the sprayer. Upon more business to deice then I'll be calling VS Innovation for a unit . Its definitely a direction I am maintaining focus on. But any suggestions on my particular build for the minimal needs I now have would be most appreciated. I plan on doing more but I must maintain footing first.  Thanks again.
> Spyda


----------



## J & A

VS Innovation said:


> Great to hear your success! Please feel free to share any information on your process and application rates. We are working very hard to compile information that will help dial in blends and application rates for the climate zones that exist across the US. I speak a lot about what numbers we personally run and how we utilize the products, but want to be able to pass more information on to educate people in climates different than ours. We have already gathered a tremendous amount of data, but the more we have, the more we can understand exactly how this product is working.
> 
> Again, let us know if you have any questions! 2018 is going to be very big year for liquid and I am excited to share or test results once this season wraps up!


Ok so I'm finding like others in the north east precipitation type is a big player , powdery dry snow great for post and pretreatment , 50 gal per lane mile pre and 100 post 
A warmer scenario heavy wet snow I found pre treatment to deffinetly help at end of storm used a lot less granular however I tried using during the event and didn't have results I was hoping for I had quick cover over but it did keep hills and turns wet underneath. It's definitely a learning curve especially when and how much to spike with calcium . Thanks to everybody here sharing numbers and ideas I am going to get it down to a science . Have one question for all I have filter on my spray unit it has just recently started to clog up on me never had this happen before all my brine is filtered before it hits storage tanks I did leave half tank in truck sitting in shop for 3 days do you guys think it fell out of suspension and that's what I'm picking up in filter ? Or did the calcium mixed in help to bring it out of suspension while sitting (325) gallon tank about 2O0 or so left In tank .


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## VS Innovation

J & A said:


> Ok so I'm finding like others in the north east precipitation type is a big player , powdery dry snow great for post and pretreatment , 50 gal per lane mile pre and 100 post
> A warmer scenario heavy wet snow I found pre treatment to deffinetly help at end of storm used a lot less granular however I tried using during the event and didn't have results I was hoping for I had quick cover over but it did keep hills and turns wet underneath. It's definitely a learning curve especially when and how much to spike with calcium . Thanks to everybody here sharing numbers and ideas I am going to get it down to a science . Have one question for all I have filter on my spray unit it has just recently started to clog up on me never had this happen before all my brine is filtered before it hits storage tanks I did leave half tank in truck sitting in shop for 3 days do you guys think it fell out of suspension and that's what I'm picking up in filter ? Or did the calcium mixed in help to bring it out of suspension while sitting (325) gallon tank about 2O0 or so left In tank .


There is a lot that goes into application rates depending on snow type. This is why it is so hard to set an exact amount per acre that we use 100% of the time. The one thing to not forget is that application rates also vary with rock salt so we should not be surprised that the same happens with liquid.

When we encounter heavy wet snows we do see our application rate go up. Depending on the type of snow and the moisture content it would not be out of the question to be running 100-120 gallons per acre. The one benefit is usually we are able to run straight salt brine, or a very low concentration of calcium, during these events. This keeps our cost down and still effectively melts the snow. It is something that has to be tailored to your environment. Once you get comfortable with the way liquid works you will be able to see if you need to apply more or less. Melting time also plays a large role in our application rates. We will put down a heavier application rate if we only have 1 hour to melt of vs if we have 6 hours to melt. At the end of the day we are in control of what we do with liquid and can control these factors.

Salt brine mixed correctly should never fall out of solution. The saturation level (the point where water cannot hold any more salt in solution) is 26.5%. The eutectic point (lowest freeze point) of brine is at 23.3% which is below the saturation level. Calcium chloride and salt brine mix together well, a magnesium product and salt brine tend to struggle as they are not the friendliest of chlorides. One thing to note is that a calcium/brine mix should never exceed a 70% brine/30% calcium blend of there will be issues with gelling and products falling out of solution. We have also seen issues with some of the organic blends not staying in solution for long periods of time. Some companies even recommend that you agitate your holding tanks once every week. We tend to stay away from products that need babysitting as this is an added step we do not want to have to deal with.

This will be a big year for us in regards to testing. I am going out with our snow crews every event and running products side by side in our equipment to see the pros and cons of some of the big name players making the additives. I am also studying the potential risks such as gelling and fall out of products in tanks. Check out our youtube channel for updates. We should have two or three videos out this week demonstrating some of the cold weather performance of a few products we ran and there will be more to come.


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## fireside

I been very interested in liquids for the past few years. This year I have playing with pre and post treatment for sidewalks with mixed results. I been also playing with salt pre wetting My question is what's the best flow rate for prewetting? Is there a magic number? Im using magic treated salt and straight salt. I change products depending on temps but looking to trick up the straight salt and save money over magic. I don't have all this extra time during events to play and watch what happens.


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## fireside

There is also no way to run a full liquid program with my service area weather, plus the logistics of it would never work for my business. I have salt in three locations but no way to have liquid to refill.


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## VS Innovation

fireside said:


> I been very interested in liquids for the past few years. This year I have playing with pre and post treatment for sidewalks with mixed results. I been also playing with salt pre wetting My question is what's the best flow rate for prewetting? Is there a magic number? Im using magic treated salt and straight salt. I change products depending on temps but looking to trick up the straight salt and save money over magic. I don't have all this extra time during events to play and watch what happens.


When pre wetting at the spinner we want to be careful that we are not putting down too much product because this will result in waste. I am not 100 percent sure on the flow rate as it really depends on your speed but I would be running around 3 gallons per minute and checking to see how evenly the salt is being covered. We then want to make sure that we back off our application rate of salt as much as possible to utilize the liquid. Maintaining the same application of rock salt and adding liquid will ultimately cost more money. There will be good results in regards to melting time, but we also want to increase our margin as much as possible.


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## VS Innovation

fireside said:


> There is also no way to run a full liquid program with my service area weather, plus the logistics of it would never work for my business. I have salt in three locations but no way to have liquid to refill.


I am very interested in your input and reasoning behind your comment. I have a customer who is very vocal on this thread (Broncslefty7) and he is getting incredible results at application rates that we never get to use (55 -65 gallons per acre post treatment). It can be difficult to see around some of the methods of storage but where there is a will there is a way. We do not just promote the process, but help design systems that are efficient and outside of the box.

If you have a location to store salt are there any issues with having liquid tanks? The biggest issue we have is when guys do not have access to water for making brine or do not have indoor space for making brine.

At the end of the day these are great conversations to have. I would be more than willing to hear how your climate is different and some of the problems liquid has. This thread is built to help people make educated decisions to select tools that will best fit their operation. At the end of the day what works amazing for one person could never work for someone else. We are here to present honest and upfront information for guys to make decisions for themselves.


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## J & A

VS Innovation said:


> I am very interested in your input and reasoning behind your comment. I have a customer who is very vocal on this thread (Broncslefty7) and he is getting incredible results at application rates that we never get to use (55 -65 gallons per acre post treatment). It can be difficult to see around some of the methods of storage but where there is a will there is a way. We do not just promote the process, but help design systems that are efficient and outside of the box.
> 
> If you have a location to store salt are there any issues with having liquid tanks? The biggest issue we have is when guys do not have access to water for making brine or do not have indoor space for making brine.
> 
> At the end of the day these are great conversations to have. I would be more than willing to hear how your climate is different and some of the problems liquid has. This thread is built to help people make educated decisions to select tools that will best fit their operation. At the end of the day what works amazing for one person could never work for someone else. We are here to present honest and upfront information for guys to make decisions for themselves.


Thanks for the info on the 70/30 split that might have been the issue with the geling , I used 90/10 this morning to get some areas from drifting back to blacktop and worked excellent considering hardback was an issue , I'm fortunate to have plenty of yard space for storage However I'm on a well also and making brine is difficult at this moment I was able to collect all rain water and make over 9000 gallons that way I'm going to work on setting up something inside for next year , I'm hoping for more smaller events so I can continue to try different application rates . Thanks again for the info


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## fireside

Ok I will try and answer some questions. Im actually using james brine to run my testing so it's proven to work. I have also looked at and studied your spray unit he has a few times. 

My weather in main service area is less than 2.5 miles max from Long Island sound and as far as 12 miles from it. I see lots rain and mix than the flash freezing. We are also get the famous snow than rain ,sleet and back to heavy wet snow than rapidly falling temps or rapidly rising temps. 

Now the logistics of liquid. I'm doing about 18 acres of pavement. For plowing I sub a few acres but small events we service in house. Each truck has a sander. I have three machines onsites that we use for plowing than load salt as needed so there not just sitting to load. After reading the limitations of liquids I'm not willing give up a sander to spread salt or if I did put a liquid system that truck would be running around everywhere just trying to get everything done. Plus I can only carry a 300 gallon tank max to be legal. 300 gallons even at 70 gallons per acres would do say 5 acres no where enough to complete. That means somewhere I would need to refill. My shop is 14 miles from the main service area so that's not feasible to run back to fill. I think the pre wet is the way to go each truck could have a 30 to 50 gallon tank giving it the capabilities of doing several loads of salt plus spray sidewalks as needed. I could fill the tanks from 250 gallon totes. I'm just having trouble figuring out the pre wet flows and location to spray. I'm at the spinner now. The last few storms have been tough with temp around 7 degrees which is not normal for my area. Pre wet keep it slush but magic salt made it go away. So is flow not good salt clearly is turning brown and is wet with little waste or do I need it wetter boy not really sure?!?


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## VS Innovation

J & A said:


> Thanks for the info on the 70/30 split that might have been the issue with the geling , I used 90/10 this morning to get some areas from drifting back to blacktop and worked excellent considering hardback was an issue , I'm fortunate to have plenty of yard space for storage However I'm on a well also and making brine is difficult at this moment I was able to collect all rain water and make over 9000 gallons that way I'm going to work on setting up something inside for next year , I'm hoping for more smaller events so I can continue to try different application rates . Thanks again for the info


I will post a link to our brine making facility. We are also located on a well that flows around 8-10 gallons per minute. The way we resolved this issue is by installing a fresh water tank that is continuously filled by a one inch line directly connected to the feed lines for our building. This tank has a shut off valve that allows it to fill and shuts off the flow once it is full. It will not keep up all day, but does allow us to batch out around 6000 gallons in about an hour and a half if we start with the brine maker full of water. Collecting rain water is also an awesome way to utilize water that would have been wasted especially if you can make brine during the summer/fall months with no risk of freezing.

There are also different maximum mix ratios depending on the additive we are running. Road guard 8 and AMP are both calcium based products and will allow for a higher mix ratio up to 70/30. If you find yourself using a mag product such as IBG you will see that the most they recommend is an 80/20 blend. I ran IBG as a test in -15*F two weeks ago with no issues of the product falling out of solution or gelling, but was advised that I should not push it further by the chemists from Envirotech. The process of liquid is not rocket science, but it is very important we understand the chemistry behind the products to properly mix without headaches. We will be posting a video of our IBG review once I film the final section tomorrow or Wednesday. We are also expecting up to 8 inches Wednesday night into Thursday this week where I will be running AMP in my truck along side a few other products!


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## VS Innovation




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## fireside

You made mention of james having great results he is 45 minutes from my area. It's admazing you go 7 miles from the shore and cross the parkway it literally goes from rain on one side to 6" of wet snow on the other side. Than get to my house and have 8" of dry snow


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## VS Innovation

When we look at pre wetting at the spinner we like to see around 7-10 gallons per 2000 lbs of product. A simple way to base your flow rate would be to figure out an approximate time to spread one ton of salt and divide the time by 7-10 for a flow rate per minute.


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## MNsnowguy

VS Innovation said:


>


Totally dig the videos. Very helpful. I'm in St Paul and would love to check out your facility some time. I've been trying to convince the boss that liquid would be the way to go.


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## VS Innovation

MNsnowguy said:


> Totally dig the videos. Very helpful. I'm in St Paul and would love to check out your facility some time. I've been trying to convince the boss that liquid would be the way to go.


Great to see you on here! Feel free to contact us anytime and we would be more than happy to have you come down! There is a lot more that we can explain and cover when we sit down and have a conversation.


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## VS Innovation




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## VS Innovation

Here is a great video we filmed a few weeks ago. The video describes most of it, but we were running an 80/20 blend of salt brine and AMP. This ratio was low for the temperatures but there was another system moving in the next morning that was going to put down another 3" of snow. I was running around 100 gallons per acre for an application rate. If it was not going to snow I would have likely been around 120 with that mixture to make sure the surfaces were completely clear but we figured as long as the surface is safe it would buy us enough time until the next round of snow fell.


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## framer1901

Here's a link to a how many pounds per gallon and what concentration calculator from Dow for CaCl.

https://www.oxycalciumchloride.com/...oride/calculators/making-solutions/index.html


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## MNsnowguy

VS Innovation said:


> Great to see you on here! Feel free to contact us anytime and we would be more than happy to have you come down! There is a lot more that we can explain and cover when we sit down and have a conversation.


Sounds great. Maybe this next week after this next event. For once a forecast of more than 2inches for St Paul.


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## J & A

Just wanted to share some more info as I dial in the liquid this year ..
Pre treated 14 lane miles of roadway along with 7 small to medium size lots 50 gal plm and 40 gallon per acre 
Last night .
7am this morning 1/2 dusting 23 degrees absolute bare pvement everywhere no additional treatments needed I’m really starting to like the liquid !


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## Shane Goetsch

Awesome J&A, I haven’t been quite that successful, what were your pavement temps? And are you using straight salt brine?


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## J & A

Shane Goetsch said:


> Awesome J&A, I haven't been quite that successful, what were your pavement temps? And are you using straight salt brine?


Road temps were around the mid 20's and I pretreated with a 90/10 mix with calcium


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## Brad3403

86 CJ said:


> Plow King, start reading through all of this post and the ones in the ICE Management catagory on Liquids and you will get your answers to your questions form a handful of us on here that were at your exact time frame with liquids years ago


How many gallons is the tank on the truck?


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## fireside

Just some more questions. What are you guys runnning for tank sizes and what size trucks. What are you using for storage and gallons. What are the total acreages you are doing and how far is your refill location. I'm been pretty impressed with my little experimentation this year. Now I'm trying to figure out the logistics of the operation.


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## Broncslefty7

750g tank
InternTional 4300
4000 gal storage, 1 1500 gallon 1 2500 gallon
750 is doing 14ish acres for me
Fill up is 15 mins away

Stop by sometime and check my set up out, I don’t think your too far away? 

:hammerhead:


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## VS Innovation

fireside said:


> Just some more questions. What are you guys runnning for tank sizes and what size trucks. What are you using for storage and gallons. What are the total acreages you are doing and how far is your refill location. I'm been pretty impressed with my little experimentation this year. Now I'm trying to figure out the logistics of the operation.


Our landscaping company runs the following.

2700 gallon sprayer on a 2006 International 7300 hook truck
1000 gallon sprayer 1984 L8000 w/ 15' plow 
750 gallon sprayer on a F-650 
500 gallon sprayer on a F-450
500 gallon sprayer on an Isuzu NQR
4 - 305 gallon sprayers all equipped in f 350's
2 - 110 gallon sprayers in Bobcat Toolcat 5600's
2 - snowrator side walk units

We currently de-ice around 60 acres per storm. We use around 6000-9000 gallons per event (not including what we sell) depending on conditions and length of the event. We do not pre treat very often so the usage numbers count for treatments during the event and post treatments.

Our main fill location is located about 20 minutes outside of our service area, 45 minutes if the roads are bad. We use the 2700 gallon sprayer as our mobile fill station to keep all of the other de-icing units moving. This works out very well because it limits the amount of downtime significantly and also means that I only need to send one truck back to our shop to fill vs 7. It also keeps our sidewalk crews from ever having to stop.

We are adding another brine manufacturing location at our landscape supply yard. Currently we installed 2 - 10,000 gallon tanks that service our brine customers and our trucks during an event.

We are a bit overkill for equipment, but most of our accounts are zero tolerance and require a tremendous amount of upkeep. We also strive to be as efficient as possible. We have never liked chasing around our plow vehicles with dedicated de-icing trucks. Now any truck that can plow can also de-ice which keeps us moving. All of our landscape trucks are also R&D trucks for VSI to ensure we are building reliable, quality equipment.


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## J & A

I have one f550 set up with 325 gallon tank 
6500 gallon storage at shop 
14 miles private Mnt roads 
5 small parking lots 
My shop is literally 1 min from roads 
And 5 from parking lots


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## J & A

Called around today for some pricing on lq calcium and bulk salt 
What a bunch of crooks 
I’ll stick to my normal suppliers 
What are you guys paying for Liquid and bulk salt ?


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## fireside

I'm paying 55 a ton for straight salt and magic 80 per ton. I was talking to a few guys out of state salt pricing is on the rise


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## 86 CJ

$75/ton here in MD, then when we convert that to liquids its much cheaper to treat


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## tpendagast

360 a ton in Alaska 
Count yourselves lucky


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## J & A

Those are good prices except alaska wow that’s insane I’m paying 83 Ton reg salt treated which I don’t need is around 100 per ton


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## tpendagast

J & A said:


> Those are good prices except alaska wow that's insane I'm paying 83 Ton reg salt treated which I don't need is around 100 per ton


Yea well there's no salt IN Alaska 
So it all gets trained or barged here

I think the source at the moment is in Kansas or something like that?
Where's compass minerals at?
I'm fairly sure that's the supply at the moment.
It's traveling a loong way!

I'm in negotiations with enviro tech to get calcium but those prices are hefty too
Shipping is the issue


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## Wacker57

I have an electric Vbox salt spreader. Was impressed with your systems for ice treatment. I don’t want to have to remove the sander for pretreating. I was looking at a DC electric system and incorporating a collapsing bladder tank supported by the Vbox. 
Any ideas?


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## Wacker57

fireside said:


> I'm paying 55 a ton for straight salt and magic 80 per ton. I was talking to a few guys out of state salt pricing is on the rise


 Where are you getting it for 55 a ton. I'm paying 65 which includes tax with a minimum of 15ton


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## fireside

Mine is 55 plus sales tax. I buy direct from port of new haven


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## fireside

Wacker57 said:


> I have an electric Vbox salt spreader. Was impressed with your systems for ice treatment. I don't want to have to remove the sander for pretreating. I was looking at a DC electric system and incorporating a collapsing bladder tank supported by the Vbox.
> Any ideas?


I'm in the same boat. I did see a rubber bladder from buyers under a tray with the sander on top. VA hospital ran it that way for two seasons. They pre treated with that than spread sand and salt marking a new beach


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## Wacker57

I was hoping someone made a flexible V-shaped bladder that would fit inside the box holding maybe 200 to 300 gallons would be nice.


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## tpendagast

fireside said:


> Mine is 55 plus sales tax. I buy direct from port of new haven


Wow the port sells it directly now?
Do you have to get a min amount or something it just drive by and get some?


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## J & A

fireside said:


> I'm paying 55 a ton for straight salt and magic 80 per ton. I was talking to a few guys out of state salt pricing is on the rise


Have you used the Magic salt 
I distributor twenty min north of me sells it for over 110 per ton and almost 3$ a gallon idk how anyone could make profit with those numbers so high


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## fireside

tpendagast said:


> Wow the port sells it directly now?
> Do you have to get a min amount or something it just drive by and get some?


Oh yes I get it every year from there Bulk price I think is 10 tons one shot over 10 tons you need to get weighted at water street first. I buy bulk 24 tons per load. Yes the port is open to get loaded at the chapel st yard. The price is higher but you can buy by the yard. They load with a nice one yard bucket.


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## fireside

J & A said:


> Have you used the Magic salt
> I distributor twenty min north of me sells it for over 110 per ton and almost 3$ a gallon idk how anyone could make profit with those numbers so high


Yes I buy almost all magic salt. It works great and shines on very cold days. I will say above 25 or so straight salt work great too. I do have both products on hand.

As for price 110 is very good landscape yards around here are 130 to 150. The port makes all the magic treated salt for most of the area in a pug mill using tanker trucks. So it is very even mixed. I think they have made 200,000 tons plus already this year. They supply most of the towns using magic and municipal pricing is even cheaper $14 per ton cheaper!


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## fireside

One side note when using magic gate down you don't need to use nearly as much so money wise it's a wash sometime even more profitable!!


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## tpendagast

fireside said:


> One side note when using magic gate down you don't need to use nearly as much so money wise it's a wash sometime even more profitable!!


i agree with that.

its the same with high test calcium liquid.

I thought it MIGHT work that way, so I tested it and it maths out.
You might pay a lot per gallon for the super pricey calcium but you use so little per acre in comparison it comes very close to the same cost per application, plus a lot less time spent applying, loading and traveling back for more load.

Trouble is you need a skilled applicator/operator because you can have someone dump a lot thinking "more is better" instead of waiting ten minutes to see there results , if you catch my drift.

Had that happen too.

You got to make sure they adhere to the applications rates you have set or boom....might as well have stayed home to watch scooby doo, you would have made more money.


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## fireside

I have trying to teach someone how to salt this year. It's been difficult process I use 20 minute rule. Salt than drive back Thur in 20 minutes it clearly shows what you did or did not do


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## Wacker57

fireside said:


> I have trying to teach someone how to salt this year. It's been difficult process I use 20 minute rule. Salt than drive back Thur in 20 minutes it clearly shows what you did or did not do


At the port in New Haven Connecticut you can pre-buy and not have to pick it up all at one time as long as you buy 15 ton or more... $58.99 + tax


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## fireside

Pre buy is 400 tons or more price is also cheaper than 58 per ton. They will stock in road salt yard but it all needs to be out by January 31. They will not stock tri axle loads for you to take as needed!!!


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## pipelayer

i also buy out of gateway. non bulk customer for magic is 110 a yard. 90 if your a bulk buyer. 

i exclusively run magic, and its been nothing but beneficial. i just recently discussed liquid with another contractor, and im considering building a setup for myself. i read the first two, and last two pages of this thread, and i will continue to read more tomorrow, and then ill post enough questions hopefully VS's info can get me in the right direction. lol

broncslefty youre up in newington so your weather conditions, ground conditions/temps are usually very similar to mine, im further south down 15, milford/orange area, would you have time to answer a few novice questions i have about liquid? it would be much appreciated. im in the pre infancy stage of attempting this haha.

im a plumber by trade so i have no issue making this system myself, i have the ability to weld/fabricate to a point as well, so i will attempt building this system on my own as well. just had a few questions to get started before i get to experimenting, figured this is as good a place as any to start. thanks.


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## tpendagast

pipelayer said:


> i also buy out of gateway. non bulk customer for magic is 110 a yard. 90 if your a bulk buyer.
> 
> i exclusively run magic, and its been nothing but beneficial. i just recently discussed liquid with another contractor, and im considering building a setup for myself. i read the first two, and last two pages of this thread, and i will continue to read more tomorrow, and then ill post enough questions hopefully VS's info can get me in the right direction. lol
> 
> broncslefty youre up in newington so your weather conditions, ground conditions/temps are usually very similar to mine, im further south down 15, milford/orange area, would you have time to answer a few novice questions i have about liquid? it would be much appreciated. im in the pre infancy stage of attempting this haha.
> 
> im a plumber by trade so i have no issue making this system myself, i have the ability to weld/fabricate to a point as well, so i will attempt building this system on my own as well. just had a few questions to get started before i get to experimenting, figured this is as good a place as any to start. thanks.


I was one of the earlier users of magic salt in Connecticut,
When I mention that to people in the industry today, they all poo poo all over magic like it's a terrible product.
I had great results with it when I used it.
Much better than salt ;or at the time most guys were still just using salt to make their sand flow.,

But yea, thats what I hear, Magic sucks compared to what else you can use (apparently)


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## fireside

I service the orange / Milford area. This season we have been using liquid one event complete winner next event I do the samething and just ok. Our snow if far wetter but on drier events it's a clear winner. The service area of newington/Hartford are no were near the samething orange Milford. We have rain this year and there he is plowing 3".


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> I was one of the earlier users of magic salt in Connecticut,
> When I mention that to people in the industry today, they all poo poo all over magic like it's a terrible product.
> I had great results with it when I used it.
> Much better than salt ;or at the time most guys were still just using salt to make their sand flow.,
> 
> But yea, thats what I hear, Magic sucks compared to what else you can use (apparently)


The only issue I have with Magic is it's overpriced. Taconic always thought that crap was liquid gold and priced it accordingly.

I have found another product that works just as well.


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## fireside

Mark Oomkes said:


> The only issue I have with Magic is it's overpriced. Taconic always thought that crap was liquid gold and priced it accordingly.
> 
> I have found another product that works just as well.


If you don't mind what are you using to replace magic? I agree it's over priced that's the reason I started experimenting with pre wetting


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## Mark Oomkes

fireside said:


> If you don't mind what are you using to replace magic? I agree it's over priced that's the reason I started experimenting with pre wetting


Check your PM's.


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## fireside

Thank you


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## Pro-TurfCT

pipelayer said:


> i also buy out of gateway. non bulk customer for magic is 110 a yard. 90 if your a bulk buyer.
> 
> i exclusively run magic, and its been nothing but beneficial. i just recently discussed liquid with another contractor, and im considering building a setup for myself. i read the first two, and last two pages of this thread, and i will continue to read more tomorrow, and then ill post enough questions hopefully VS's info can get me in the right direction. lol
> 
> broncslefty youre up in newington so your weather conditions, ground conditions/temps are usually very similar to mine, im further south down 15, milford/orange area, would you have time to answer a few novice questions i have about liquid? it would be much appreciated. im in the pre infancy stage of attempting this haha.
> 
> im a plumber by trade so i have no issue making this system myself, i have the ability to weld/fabricate to a point as well, so i will attempt building this system on my own as well. just had a few questions to get started before i get to experimenting, figured this is as good a place as any to start. thanks.


why don't you just come by and ask? lol I gave you the idea the other day anyway!


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## Broncslefty7

pipelayer said:


> broncslefty youre up in newington so your weather conditions, ground conditions/temps are usually very similar to mine, im further south down 15, milford/orange area, would you have time to answer a few novice questions i have about liquid? it would be much appreciated. im in the pre infancy stage of attempting this haha.
> 
> im a plumber by trade so i have no issue making this system myself, i have the ability to weld/fabricate to a point as well, so i will attempt building this system on my own as well. just had a few questions to get started before i get to experimenting, figured this is as good a place as any to start. thanks.


Sure whats up?


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## pipelayer

Pro-TurfCT said:


> why don't you just come by and ask? lol I gave you the idea the other day anyway!


no doubt lol give me a call when youre up and building that system ill swing down and give you a hand


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## pipelayer

Broncslefty7 said:


> Sure whats up?


message me if you can id like to just ask a few questions about the liquid system.


----------



## Pro-TurfCT

pipelayer said:


> no doubt lol give me a call when youre up and building that system ill swing down and give you a hand


its done


----------



## Broncslefty7

Where r u CT guys from?


----------



## Pro-TurfCT

Broncslefty7 said:


> Where r u CT guys from?


We run out of Milford. I do some work in the Middletown/Cromwell area by you. Your in Newington right? 
You guys have any thoughts on baffle balls or other objects that work. Kubota mentioned in a thread that somewhere else that perforated pipe works well. Anyone have input on that or what works?


----------



## Broncslefty7

Ok our international 4300 with the 750 tank, I was very worried about baffles. I never bought them and surge hasn’t been an issue, barely feel it. I probably will not purchase those baffle balls in the future.


----------



## brknlinn

When I built my setup I used perforated drain tile type hose and stuffed it into the tank.
I have a 200 gallon tank and the hose fills the tank about 3/4 of the way.
I don't feel any surging effect of liquid sloshing around in the tank.
My set up is in a F250 Super Duty if that helps. Keep in mind if you use perforated hose cut it with a razor knife. If you cut with a saw you be clogging up your nozzles for a very long time.


----------



## Pro-TurfCT

brknlinn said:


> When I built my setup I used perforated drain tile type hose and stuffed it into the tank.
> I have a 200 gallon tank and the hose fills the tank about 3/4 of the way.
> I don't feel any surging effect of liquid sloshing around in the tank.
> My set up is in a F250 Super Duty if that helps. Keep in mind if you use perforated hose cut it with a razor knife. If you cut with a saw you be clogging up your nozzles for a very long time.


what size sections of hose did you cut it into? 2 ft?


----------



## brknlinn

I cut into 4 foot long sections. If I remember correctly I used 4" dia tubing and was able to get 100' feet of it into the tank. I might be wrong on this, I'm going by memory and I cant remember what I had for dinner tonight.


----------



## On a Call

tpendagast said:


> I was one of the earlier users of magic salt in Connecticut,
> When I mention that to people in the industry today, they all poo poo all over magic like it's a terrible product.
> I had great results with it when I used it.
> Much better than salt ;or at the time most guys were still just using salt to make their sand flow.,
> 
> But yea, thats what I hear, Magic sucks compared to what else you can use (apparently)


Okay...so how is magic made ??


----------



## tpendagast

On a Call said:


> Okay...so how is magic made ??


I don't know exactly 
My understanding is its salt treated with liquid mag

I thought it worked pretty dang good back in the early 2000s when I used it.

But now everyone seems to poo on it, from what I'm hearing now.


----------



## On a Call

tpendagast said:


> I don't know exactly
> My understanding is its salt treated with liquid mag
> 
> I thought it worked pretty dang good back in the early 2000s when I used it.
> 
> But now everyone seems to poo on it, from what I'm hearing now.


I had a pallet given to me back about 10 years ago. I thought it was beet juice...but then no idea ??

This is the product
http://www.seaco.com/magicsalt/
http://ibgmagic.com/

Then you have this
http://www.peterschemical.com/magic-salt-fact-or-fiction/


----------



## tpendagast

On a Call said:


> I had a pallet given to me back about 10 years ago. I thought it was beet juice...but then no idea ??
> 
> This is the product
> http://www.seaco.com/magicsalt/
> http://ibgmagic.com/
> 
> Then you have this
> http://www.peterschemical.com/magic-salt-fact-or-fiction/


I think there's a sugar (beet juice or molasses) in the ingredients 
This helps with lower temp activations andceutectic temps which help keep it flowing.
But also aid in it "sticking" to and encapsulating the salt , otherwise it would just be a wet mess with rock salt floating in it.

I'm certain it's not solely salt and beet juice 
That wouldn't be very effective 
Beet juice is a synergistic enhancer/additive but isn't a main ingredient.

Most products that use beet juice or molasses are running somewhere between 3% and 8% by volume with a primary liquid product like calcium or mag.


----------



## On a Call

tpendagast said:


> I think there's a sugar (beet juice or molasses) in the ingredients
> This helps with lower temp activations andceutectic temps which help keep it flowing.
> But also aid in it "sticking" to and encapsulating the salt , otherwise it would just be a wet mess with rock salt floating in it.
> 
> I'm certain it's not solely salt and beet juice
> That wouldn't be very effective
> Beet juice is a synergistic enhancer/additive but isn't a main ingredient.
> 
> Most products that use beet juice or molasses are running somewhere between 3% and 8% by volume with a primary liquid product like calcium or mag.


I remember back a few years I was looking for beet juice. You could during the fall season ( harvest time ) pick up the beet juice. Pick up as much as you wanted. Not sure the price.

But then you would have to add in the other elements/ingredients


----------



## tpendagast

On a Call said:


> I remember back a few years I was looking for beet juice. You could during the fall season ( harvest time ) pick up the beet juice. Pick up as much as you wanted. Not sure the price.
> 
> But then you would have to add in the other elements/ingredients


Mixing stuff isn't the hard part (unless you're trying to make your own liquid calcium) 
Finding what to use and how to get it is the challenge.


----------



## On a Call

tpendagast said:


> Mixing stuff isn't the hard part (unless you're trying to make your own liquid calcium)
> Finding what to use and how to get it is the challenge.


Hence my asking you 
Thought you were the brains of this operation ?


----------



## tpendagast

On a Call said:


> Hence my asking you
> Thought you were the brains of this operation ?


Tbh I'm a novice on the liquid

I did the magic salt and it was as easy as sanding
I bought stuff and spread stuff

Liquid is more involved 
Especially when it comes to pricing 
How much do you charge?
How much do you apply and when?
What temp is it?
Dilution?

Making salt brine is easy 
But it's only effective to 15-20 degrees


----------



## On a Call

tpendagast said:


> Tbh I'm a novice on the liquid
> 
> I did the magic salt and it was as easy as sanding
> I bought stuff and spread stuff
> 
> Liquid is more involved
> Especially when it comes to pricing
> How much do you charge?
> How much do you apply and when?
> What temp is it?
> Dilution?
> 
> Making salt brine is easy
> But it's only effective to 15-20 degrees


Okay,,,I hope someone with knowledge and or experience speaks up. 
It would be nice to set up a mixer,
Someone said that Mark O set up a mixing station ??


----------



## tpendagast

On a Call said:


> Okay,,,I hope someone with knowledge and or experience speaks up.
> It would be nice to set up a mixer,
> Someone said that Mark O set up a mixing station ??


What are you trying to mix?

Just the brine?
Or "special sauce"?

I've got a plethora of charts , mixing rates , temp guides and so on I can share with you.

It's all relative to your area, what you can get, and what temps you're trying to treat at.

David Voigt From VSI knows way more than I do, 
He's posted earlier in this thread.
Pm/email him
I do.


----------



## On a Call

Sauce 

Beet juice, mag, and the salt.

Temps can at times drop to 0 last night we were at 13 and had icing happen.

For the next weeks lows hitting 10 and highs 22.


----------



## J & A

On a Call said:


> Sauce
> 
> Beet juice, mag, and the salt.
> 
> Temps can at times drop to 0 last night we were at 13 and had icing happen.
> 
> For the next weeks lows hitting 10 and highs 22.


Mixing 50/50 mag and calcium used on small area at 5 am this morning yielded some very impressive results


----------



## spyda

oils to load he video as this website doesn't allow .mov extension from Iphone I guess. But flow was feeble. U can see the set up in the pics tho. Tips are QJ solid stream SJ03 (red) with single eyelet nozzle bodies on a pvc boom 7'9" spaces 20" apart. Pumps are Remco 5.3gpm


----------



## spyda

spyda said:


> View attachment 177282
> View attachment 177281
> Faulure to load the video as this website doesn't allow .mov extension from Iphone I guess. But flow was feeble. U can see the set up in the pics tho. Tips are QJ solid stream SJ03 (red) with single eyelet nozzle bodies on a pvc boom 7'9" spaces 20" apart. Pumps are Remco 5.3gpm


----------



## pipelayer

Pro-TurfCT said:


> its done


damn man that was quick! supposed to get some weather this week coming up, after it slows down ill take a run by one day and check it out.


----------



## Broncslefty7

some before and after photos of this mornings freeze over. about 5 minutes after applying.


----------



## pipelayer

fireside said:


> Pre buy is 400 tons or more price is also cheaper than 58 per ton. They will stock in road salt yard but it all needs to be out by January 31. They will not stock tri axle loads for you to take as needed!!!


useful info if your volume is that high that 400 tons would be utilized, and the yard you had was large enough to store that much material. major savings over the normal tri axle load price of 90 a yard.


----------



## fireside

My experimenting in liquids continues. My cheap trial runs.


----------



## fireside

Simply


----------



## fireside

Thoughts to little product or not. It was just water


----------



## tpendagast

fireside said:


> Thoughts to little product or not. It was just water


It depends on what you're trying to do.
What your target temperature (in theory) is
So many variables there's no right or wrong answer.

Are you trying to practice post treat?
Is that meant to be a trial pre treat?
How close can you plow down the snow pack and how much potential moisture is there once you do apply?

I'm not finding pretreats working worth a dang under 10 degrees 
It might if I used road guard plus 8, which I haven't been able to get any supply of this year.
But that's $3 a gallon here my cost.

So probably looking at a $250 bill for a pretreat of roadguard per acre..

Where you're at, maybe temps are only 18 degrees or higher?
Maybe you can use straight salt brine? 
You could be looking at pretreats costing $90 an acre?

If that's so your pattern looks good to me.
How fast were you traveling when you applied?
What gpm is your boom producing?

In colder temps with snow pack you would need to apply heavier (which could be as simple as slowing down during your app)


----------



## spyda

fireside said:


> View attachment 177566
> My experimenting in liquids continues. My cheap trial runs.


I'm in the same boat. I tried to upload video from my iphone however the website doesn't accept/allow the .mov /mp4 extensions which iphones use. Guess I'll have to load up some still pics like yours. Pics of your setup available?


----------



## fireside




----------



## fireside

Another quick shot. I had great results today


----------



## fireside




----------



## fireside

The left side was magic and right was brine sprayed yesterday.


----------



## Broncslefty7

nice


----------



## fireside

tpendagast said:


> It depends on what you're trying to do.
> What your target temperature (in theory) is
> So many variables there's no right or wrong answer.
> 
> Are you trying to practice post treat?
> Is that meant to be a trial pre treat?
> How close can you plow down the snow pack and how much potential moisture is there once you do apply?
> 
> I'm not finding pretreats working worth a dang under 10 degrees
> It might if I used road guard plus 8, which I haven't been able to get any supply of this year.
> But that's $3 a gallon here my cost.
> 
> So probably looking at a $250 bill for a pretreat of roadguard per acre..
> 
> Where you're at, maybe temps are only 18 degrees or higher?
> Maybe you can use straight salt brine?
> You could be looking at pretreats costing $90 an acre?
> 
> If that's so your pattern looks good to me.
> How fast were you traveling when you applied?
> What gpm is your boom producing?
> 
> In colder temps with snow pack you would need to apply heavier (which could be as simple as slowing down during your app)


I would never use a liquid product with a higher cost than salt. I would just spread magic salt. My pre treat cost with magic is about $35 I pay less per ton than 90. My travel speed was around 7 mph at 7gpm or so. This is down and dirty liquid setup on s shoe string budget. I'm trying to see if one I like it and two does it really work in my weather conditions. Today snow was very wet temps was 24 ground temp was 23


----------



## fireside

Yes I'm looking a pre treat only at this time for the lots. I have been using it pre and post on the walks with mixed results, but I'm still learning


----------



## spyda

fireside said:


> Simply
> View attachment 177567


 Looks like its good. Just so you know - 
Only one of your pics is halfway showing. The rest of your thumbnail pics aren't showing up.


----------



## fireside

After doing more research into sprayers why do the systems use 2" gas pumps with flows of 200 plus GPM? Why not a 1" pump with a 50 to 70 GPM at 50psi?
Let's just say if the system max flow is 30 GPM at 40 psi why the additional GPM? In the fire service smaller pumps are matched to GPM. Lower flows with larger pumps generates heat! Heat over time destroys pumps from the inside out. Our pumps are all ways circulating water when say not flowing a fire hose so the sprayer must have an electric valve to open circulating water when pump is running and not spraying correct?


----------



## VS Innovation

fireside said:


> After doing more research into sprayers why do the systems use 2" gas pumps with flows of 200 plus GPM? Why not a 1" pump with a 50 to 70 GPM at 50psi?
> Let's just say if the system max flow is 30 GPM at 40 psi why the additional GPM? In the fire service smaller pumps are matched to GPM. Lower flows with larger pumps generates heat! Heat over time destroys pumps from the inside out. Our pumps are all ways circulating water when say not flowing a fire hose so the sprayer must have an electric valve to open circulating water when pump is running and not spraying correct?


We use the 2 inch pumps for several reasons. You must always look at the pressure/flow curves. You have to remember that a pump is rated by maximum pressure at 0 gpm and maximum flow at 0 psi. This means there is a range that the flow and will yield a certain pressure. When our systems max out, around 95 gpm @ 35 psi, we still have pressure present behind them but the pressure of the system is around 2/3 of the max for the system. The closer we get to open flow the less pressure present thus the less we can actually push through our plumbing. Fluid dynamics can be pretty tricky to quantify!

The other reason we use 2" pumps is because we can now fill and pump out the sprayers very quickly. We see around 150 gpm self filling and 18- gpm pumping out. This is especially nice when you are running larger systems. On some of our bigger builds we have even installed 3" pumps to help lessen loading and off loading time.

We run a continuous bypass on our systems. It allows for enough flow to keep the seal cool when the system is completely closed. My demo sprayer has been put through the ringer the last two years and is still running the original seal. It even went through a week long R&D session where it literally ran wide open for 5 hours a day while the system was being tested.

Hope this helps!


----------



## VS Innovation




----------



## VS Innovation

Here is a video comparing a few different products we have been testing. It was below zero again which is apparently normal for this year! We were running an 80/20 blend of salt brine and AMP and Derek was running a product called Apex-C which is a stand alone calcium chloride that contains synthetic inhibitors vs organic inhibitors. Both products are very clean which is a huge plus in our book!


----------



## Broncslefty7

Dave is your cost comparison are you taking labor into account? At 40 GPA, you are getting a hole lot less action out of your side nozzles, maybe 1 foot on each side? So even though you are spraying way less it would take way longer to apply it. I've found on your unit the sweet spot for about 5 feet on each side of the boom is at 57 gpa. That's what we have been pre treating and post treating with a 5-10% ibg mix. Why are you getting so much hard packed? Did you not pre treat this storm? Just curious

Here is a video of our 750 gal VSI sprayer!


----------



## fireside

VS Innovation said:


> We use the 2 inch pumps for several reasons. You must always look at the pressure/flow curves. You have to remember that a pump is rated by maximum pressure at 0 gpm and maximum flow at 0 psi. This means there is a range that the flow and will yield a certain pressure. When our systems max out, around 95 gpm @ 35 psi, we still have pressure present behind them but the pressure of the system is around 2/3 of the max for the system. The closer we get to open flow the less pressure present thus the less we can actually push through our plumbing. Fluid dynamics can be pretty tricky to quantify!
> 
> The other reason we use 2" pumps is because we can now fill and pump out the sprayers very quickly. We see around 150 gpm self filling and 18- gpm pumping out. This is especially nice when you are running larger systems. On some of our bigger builds we have even installed 3" pumps to help lessen loading and off loading time.
> 
> We run a continuous bypass on our systems. It allows for enough flow to keep the seal cool when the system is completely closed. My demo sprayer has been put through the ringer the last two years and is still running the original seal. It even went through a week long R&D session where it literally ran wide open for 5 hours a day while the system was being tested.
> 
> Hope this helps!


 Yes thank you for the great information. I'm becoming addicted to this project.


----------



## Pro-TurfCT

Broncslefty7 said:


> Ok our international 4300 with the 750 tank, I was very worried about baffles. I never bought them and surge hasn't been an issue, barely feel it. I probably will not purchase those baffle balls in the future.


I stuffed about 470 ft of 4" perf pipe in 2-3' lengths and have minimal surge. way cheaper than baffle balls. food for thought


----------



## Pro-TurfCT

Im curios what everyone is running for nozzles. I think I need to reduce my solid stream nozzle size because Im only seeing about 20PSI at the moment, seems to be plenty though. I'd like to bump it up to about 30-35PSI. The nozzles we're running now are dumping nearly 2gpm based on the old bucket and stopwatch test. Waiting to dial in the system this weekend. Lets hear what you guys are running. Also, curious how we can increase the pressure, reduce inline bypass line size to 1/2" is my thought.


----------



## tpendagast

fireside said:


> After doing more research into sprayers why do the systems use 2" gas pumps with flows of 200 plus GPM? Why not a 1" pump with a 50 to 70 GPM at 50psi?
> Let's just say if the system max flow is 30 GPM at 40 psi why the additional GPM? In the fire service smaller pumps are matched to GPM. Lower flows with larger pumps generates heat! Heat over time destroys pumps from the inside out. Our pumps are all ways circulating water when say not flowing a fire hose so the sprayer must have an electric valve to open circulating water when pump is running and not spraying correct?


The skids are designed with a recirculator hose to avoid dead heading 
Pumps are only designed to run around 40 psi which isn't dead nuts for the Honda engine power plant 
They're running at much lower temps than you're used to 
And smaller electric pump motors drain too much from trucks to be deemed reliable 
So I Imagine the engine for the pump is chosen for reliability and it's about as small as the gas engines of the type come


----------



## tpendagast

Pro-TurfCT said:


> Im curios what everyone is running for nozzles. I think I need to reduce my solid stream nozzle size because Im only seeing about 20PSI at the moment, seems to be plenty though. I'd like to bump it up to about 30-35PSI. The nozzles we're running now are dumping nearly 2gpm based on the old bucket and stopwatch test. Waiting to dial in the system this weekend. Lets hear what you guys are running. Also, curious how we can increase the pressure, reduce inline bypass line size to 1/2" is my thought.


Why do you want more pressure?


----------



## jdelec

J & A said:


> Have you used the Magic salt
> I distributor twenty min north of me sells it for over 110 per ton and almost 3$ a gallon idk how anyone could make profit with those numbers so high


Hi J & A, Could you pass on that distributors name? I am in Monroe, NY.


----------



## Pro-TurfCT

tpendagast said:


> Why do you want more pressure?


I don't necessarily need more pressure, but if I wanted to increase it Im curious where Id do it. We seem to have burned a lot of material this past storm. More pressure less volume was my thought


----------



## Broncslefty7

More pressure would result in more material, unless you just use smaller nozzles to cut through hard pack


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> Dave is your cost comparison are you taking labor into account? At 40 GPA, you are getting a hole lot less action out of your side nozzles, maybe 1 foot on each side? So even though you are spraying way less it would take way longer to apply it. I've found on your unit the sweet spot for about 5 feet on each side of the boom is at 57 gpa. That's what we have been pre treating and post treating with a 5-10% ibg mix. Why are you getting so much hard packed? Did you not pre treat this storm? Just curious
> 
> Here is a video of our 750 gal VSI sprayer!


In all honesty we barely pre treat. In our climate where the ground temps are well below zero this time of year, pre treating with straight salt brine has almost no effect. This is just based upon the fact that we know our brine will freeze at -6 and as we get closer to the freeze point the less active the salt will be. We could pre treat with a 90/10 blend of AMP but we find that the cost is not always worth the treatment. This storm also had a decent amount of wind with it. We try to never treat in wind and let the parking lots blow as clean as possible. The snow pack is from the large amount of semi traffic.

It is true that the side booms will not be active in the 40 gpa range. Our booms are balanced to post treat. You will see that the flow rates associated with pre treating and actually very low. When we set up sprayers to do more pre treating we either swap out the side tips for smaller ones that are balanced in the 30-50 gpa range or we include a shut off valve for one of the side nozzles. This helps maintain the pressure in the system and gives us a much better pattern. Derek was just running his single lane boom on that sprayer for that reason. You can see from the drone shot how much more I can cover with the three lane.

A simple fix for you would be to remove on of the side boom nozzles. This will get you very close to the numbers that you are running and should give a lot better performance at the lower speeds!


----------



## VS Innovation

The cost between the two products given the application rate is actually about the same. We pay around $1.17 for Apex-C and around $2.50 per gallon of AMP I believe. The cost per acre to de-ice in these temps for us is around $40. This is about as expensive as it gets for us simply due to how cold it was. 

When we compare products like these we are looking for the outside benefits also associated with them. Both products are incredibly clean due to the fact that they do not contain organic inhibitors (sugars and beet juice). This means there is no messy tracking. The one benefit to the Apex-C is the fact that you can almost double the coverage of your equipment. This obviously means we can reduce labor input by not having to fill up as often.


----------



## Pro-TurfCT

I considered reducing nozzle size but I’m going to be making some adjustments. One being adding a **** off valve in my side booms so we can run one nozzle as stated. Order those yesterday. Considering reducing the nozzle size, these numbers were 20psi wide open no servo. We should be able to reduce the amount of material via nozzles and/or once the servo is up and running. Thoughts?


----------



## J & A

jdelec said:


> Hi J & A, Could you pass on that distributors name? I am in Monroe, NY.


Pm me I'll give u there info


----------



## acswaupaca1

Is pressure of any importance when applying post plowing?


----------



## acswaupaca1

I've really been frustrated with granular salt these past two storms. We've had two events that totaled 0.5" each snow has been so dry that we've had to over apply salt too see decent melting fast enough on zero tolerance properties. I can see how 100% brine would benefit melt time and boost profit and safety. I feel like we could have a slip and fall claim from the salt itself!


----------



## tpendagast

acswaupaca1 said:


> I've really been frustrated with granular salt these past two storms. We've had two events that totaled 0.5" each snow has been so dry that we've had to over apply salt too see decent melting fast enough on zero tolerance properties. I can see how 100% brine would benefit melt time and boost profit and safety. I feel like we could have a slip and fall claim from the salt itself!


if the snow is wet and packed (driven on) treated salt works better... Liquid is a tool in snow and ice management, it's not the 'only' tool, however.


----------



## tpendagast

acswaupaca1 said:


> Is pressure of any importance when applying post plowing?


not from what ive read and been told, no.


----------



## VS Innovation

Flow rate is your most important piece of the equation when it comes to de-icing. The flow rate at your boom is how you calculate your application rate based upon your travel speed. There will always be pressure associated with the flow rate. A lot of guys get hung up on the pressure because before GPS rate control pressure control systems were used to control the flow rate (still are today). With this concept more pressure to the boom = more flow, less pressure = less flow.

If you would like the equations on how to figure out application rates I would be more than happy to type them up.


----------



## tpendagast

VS Innovation said:


> Flow rate is your most important piece of the equation when it comes to de-icing. The flow rate at your boom is how you calculate your application rate based upon your travel speed. There will always be pressure associated with the flow rate. A lot of guys get hung up on the pressure because before GPS rate control pressure control systems were used to control the flow rate (still are today). With this concept more pressure to the boom = more flow, less pressure = less flow.
> 
> If you would like the equations on how to figure out application rates I would be more than happy to type them up.


I'd take you up on that offer.
Count me interested.


----------



## Pgmsnow

VS Innovation said:


> Here is a video comparing a few different products we have been testing. It was below zero again which is apparently normal for this year! We were running an 80/20 blend of salt brine and AMP and Derek was running a product called Apex-C which is a stand alone calcium chloride that contains synthetic inhibitors vs organic inhibitors. Both products are very clean which is a huge plus in our book!


----------



## Pgmsnow

What do you use to pump the apex into the rig? We are using a centrifugal pump mounted in the truck but during the last storm the temps dropped so low that we had to take the pump out of the truck to ground level and use a small discharge hose to refill the rig. Im assuming the viscosity becomes to great at sub zero temps for a centrifugal pump and want to make sure the next one I buy works.


----------



## VS Innovation

Winter will be here before we know it! Here is a video on our new boom designs for 2018!


----------



## VS Innovation




----------



## Leland Lawn

VS Innovation said:


>


What nozzles are you using for the "Pile Driver' on the top of each end? (they are a boom buster style) I built and use a small boom with two TeeJet nozzles, but they don't put out nearly that volume.


----------



## VS Innovation

Leland Lawn said:


> What nozzles are you using for the "Pile Driver' on the top of each end? (they are a boom buster style) I built and use a small boom with two TeeJet nozzles, but they don't put out nearly that volume.


We run all boom-less nozzles for our side booms. It is important to note that our systems are designed to pattern with our GPS rate control system. We run two different tips to ensure that we pattern and maintain a consistent application rate over a wide range of application rates.


----------



## DitschL&L

VSI

Have watched every one of your videos. Have been tring to get my partner into brine for the last few years. He is a numbers guy. 

I have skimmed through this thread and have seen the cost to get into it and the cost per gallon. Maybe I missed it but how are you billing it?

I have heard of people charging more than bulk salt application but the general consensus is it is billed at the same rate as bulk salt? 

What are average price differences for pre and post treatments? I know they are applied at differnt rates does that reflect in the billing process? Is pretreatment billed at 75%?

Do you have a thread on your hydroseeding as well? Few questions about that as I am looking to get into it as well.


----------



## Broncslefty7

we pre treat 55 gallons and post treat right about 60-65. i bill a set price per application some accounts is the same price as salt and some is a little more expensive.


----------



## VS Innovation

DitschL&L said:


> VSI
> 
> Have watched every one of your videos. Have been tring to get my partner into brine for the last few years. He is a numbers guy.
> 
> I have skimmed through this thread and have seen the cost to get into it and the cost per gallon. Maybe I missed it but how are you billing it?
> 
> I have heard of people charging more than bulk salt application but the general consensus is it is billed at the same rate as bulk salt?
> 
> What are average price differences for pre and post treatments? I know they are applied at differnt rates does that reflect in the billing process? Is pretreatment billed at 75%?
> 
> Do you have a thread on your hydroseeding as well? Few questions about that as I am looking to get into it as well.


If you check out our website you will find a calculator section that will allow you to input your numbers to see what the cost breakdown of salt brine vs rock salt.

Generally we see a consistent savings of 50% of salt usage per acre. The math will actually bring us to a 75% savings or higher, but we run with the 50% rule as it is very safe. The cost can easily be calculated as we know that every one gallon of salt brine contains 2.28 lbs of rock salt. This being said, in a heavy post treatment application at 100 gallons per acre we are only applying 228 lbs of rock salt per acre. Compare this to typical application rates of 800 - 1500+ lbs of rock salt per acre in our area and we can start to see the savings. Most of the time we combine an additive into the solution, AMP manufactured by Envirotech Services is our new go to product (look for new videos on this).

Our typical cost per gallon is around the 15 - 40 cents per gallon depending on the mix ratio are running. We bill on par with what our competitors charge for rock salt. Now that we are established in our market, we can actually charge more as our service is superior to our competitors. We can also de-ice in temperatures that rock salt (even if treated) cannot touch. I want to say that we were charging $275 per acre for de-icing last year.

Our typical application rates run 30 -50 gallons per acre pre-treating to 80 - 100 gallons per acre post treating. We do not do a tremendous amount of pre treating in MN as our ground and air temperatures get so cold that salt brine without an additive can actually freeze on the surface. It is also very ineffective as we are so close to the freezing point of the solution. If we do pre treat, we generally charge $1.50 to $2 per gallon.

Reach out on our website with any questions! I would be more than happy to have a phone call discussion with you!


----------



## Captaingc

VS Innovation said:


> I know there area quite a few threads started about liquid de-icing, but I would like to start a thread for any questions related to the entire process from mixing, spraying and sprayer setups, to the final result.
> 
> Our company has been using liquid as our only means of de-icing for the last 4 seasons and have a very large knowledge base on the entire process. We have designed and built every sprayer and brine maker we use.
> 
> No question will go unanswered, and I can promise no rude remarks or comments will be made by myself. I am here to give accurate information and to help clear up any unknowns you may have!


I am a small Contractor in Homer, Alaska. We are getting into the Brine Business and I am in Need of all the information I can get my hands on.
My Rocksalt comes in 2200# Supersacks at the cost of $1000. per bag I also have Supersacks of Calcium Chloride at the same price. I need a application unit and think I can build a Bulk tank system myself. 
Any Help would be Very appreciated


----------



## Broncslefty7

A grand per ton of salt? That’s nuts.... are you on an island up there? I tired shipping a tote of our liquid to a falcon sanctuary on an island in Alaska, shipping was 1200 bucks....


----------



## Captaingc

Broncslefty7 said:


> A grand per ton of salt? That's nuts.... are you on an island up there? I tired shipping a tote of our liquid to a falcon sanctuary on an island in Alaska, shipping was 1200 bucks....


Actually on the Road system, But Freight is Really Expensive. I see prices of $20 per ton and Dream


----------



## Broncslefty7

I can send you totes of brine for cheaper than 1k per ton that’s nuts


----------



## Broncslefty7

Brine is easy, but it’s not a magic bullet. What kind of temps are you dealing with? Wet snow or dry fluffy stuff? We rarely get below 15 degrees so we can get away with applying 55-60 gallons per acre. So the cost effectiveness is good for us.


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7 said:


> A grand per ton of salt? That's nuts.... are you on an island up there? I tired shipping a tote of our liquid to a falcon sanctuary on an island in Alaska, shipping was 1200 bucks....


Any type of shipping/business is tremendously more expensive in Canada, we deal with it quite frequently. Remember that it is a relatively even increase across the board for all contractors. Liquid thus offers the same price savings as we would see, just higher input cost. At the end of the day the margins remain close to the same. If you were to ship him a tote of brine you would only be sending him 627 lbs of rock salt! Now that is a bad deal!


----------



## VS Innovation

Not sure why I said Canada... Definitely meant to say Alaska.. one of those days I guess


----------



## acswaupaca1

Who is making brine with the Canada salt? Was told that it makes great brine, I'm curious as to testing the salinity with the mag and Cal that is in it.


----------



## William Brett

What hose ends are people using for treating pedestrian areaslooking at a 100m hose with tap and spray pattern for treating larger pedestrian areas.


----------



## chachi1984

can home brewed brine, CC/water mix be sprayed on salt and be used for salt boxes or will it freeze eventually . would this be considered treated salt. Ive bought treated salt and white bulk salt for my boxes had a bit of clumping but nothing major


----------



## tpendagast

Captaingc said:


> I am a small Contractor in Homer, Alaska. We are getting into the Brine Business and I am in Need of all the information I can get my hands on.
> My Rocksalt comes in 2200# Supersacks at the cost of $1000. per bag I also have Supersacks of Calcium Chloride at the same price. I need a application unit and think I can build a Bulk tank system myself.
> Any Help would be Very appreciated


Hey cap 
We're in anchorage 
We may be able to give you a hand if you're just starting out.
Who are you getting your salt from 
Ak mill?


----------



## tpendagast

VS Innovation said:


> Not sure why I said Canada... Definitely meant to say Alaska.. one of those days I guess


Dave and I had some "fun" trying to figure out shipping to Alaska Last year,
Including a fake company offering shipping just to scam money.

We could probably truck super sacks of salt down to homer for less than a grand per sack.

I'd have to check for sure


----------



## gcbailey

Instead of starting a new thread, I'll ask a couple questions here.... I have skimmed through most of the 25 pages but haven't seen my question answered so....

Wanting to "experiment" with liquid this season. We've got one site that has 75k sq ft of parking lot that I'd like to use liquid as a pre-treat. I'm thinking of initially building a home made setup as I have most of everything from our weed/feed side that I can change up (spare parts). 

I have a 200 gal tank that I plan on using. My main question is.... Would it be practical or feasible to mix my brine in the tank that I plan on using or should I get a couple totes to mix the brine in then put it in the tank? We will be using it on one site only so.....


----------



## Broncslefty7

I’ve seen a couple people online do that, and there’s some rigs that’s are built to do that. It’s preferabce I guess. No need to build an additional brine maker at your shop if your just testing on one lot.


----------



## gcbailey

I do plan on having in tank agitation to help keep the stuff mixed up, so.... It's a learning process.


----------



## tpendagast

gcbailey said:


> I do plan on having in tank agitation to help keep the stuff mixed up, so.... It's a learning process.


you dont need in tank agitation for just salt brine, once its made properly the salt stays in suspension.


----------



## Broncslefty7

thats the key, achieving the correct suspension. If you need agitation it means theres to much salt in it.

**we are filling our new and improved brine maker up now to check for leaks, ill post photos soon.


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> thats the key, achieving the correct suspension. If you need agitation it means theres to much salt in it.
> 
> **we are filling our new and improved brine maker up now to check for leaks, ill post photos soon.


the other key is IF you get too much salt in your brine, its not only more expensive BUT its also LESS effective!
We found that out the hard way too, imagine spraying your own parking lots and MAKING them ICIER!


----------



## rick W

Broncslefty7 said:


> thats the key, achieving the correct suspension. If you need agitation it means theres to much salt in it.
> 
> **we are filling our new and improved brine maker up now to check for leaks, ill post photos soon.


Look forward to seeing pics. We made a kubota inspired one and it works fairly well. Issue is i am burning up some very dirty salt (lots of chunkies and gravel in it) Its a huge pita to empty and flush all out after 3 or 4 batches but salt was dirt cheap so managing Post lots of pics of your improvements.


----------



## Broncslefty7

we use pool salt, its super clean like table salt so it dissolved suuuuper fast, and i get really good pricing on it since we use about 75 pallets of it during the summer in swimming pools. Plus i dont have to pay for it until may, since they think we are stocking up on it for next season as part of our early buy program incentive......


----------



## fireside

So does that mean brine per gallon cost is the same or cheaper than bulk


----------



## Broncslefty7

its cheaper, the salt cost is higher but the labor cost is much lower, we can mix a batch in 10 minutes. the only thing that is currently limiting us is how fast we can fill the brine maker with water. With our old set up, it would take 7 minutes to fill it will salt, 38 minutes to fill it with water. By the time the maker was full of water the brine mix was done. when we where using Bulk Rock Salt it would take a good 70 minutes to dilute down. 

So now with the new brine maker i am running a 1" line off the well pump which is very strong, and should fill in about 24 minutes. So we should be cranking 30 minute batches from filling to emptying. at 650ish gallons per batch that is not bad. 

prior we where doing 400 gallon batches in about 1:45 with bulk rock salt.


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> we use pool salt, its super clean like table salt so it dissolved suuuuper fast, and i get really good pricing on it since we use about 75 pallets of it during the summer in swimming pools. Plus i dont have to pay for it until may, since they think we are stocking up on it for next season as part of our early buy program incentive......


hahaha!


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> its cheaper, the salt cost is higher but the labor cost is much lower, we can mix a batch in 10 minutes. the only thing that is currently limiting us is how fast we can fill the brine maker with water. With our old set up, it would take 7 minutes to fill it will salt, 38 minutes to fill it with water. By the time the maker was full of water the brine mix was done. when we where using Bulk Rock Salt it would take a good 70 minutes to dilute down.
> 
> So now with the new brine maker i am running a 1" line off the well pump which is very strong, and should fill in about 24 minutes. So we should be cranking 30 minute batches from filling to emptying. at 650ish gallons per batch that is not bad.
> 
> prior we where doing 400 gallon batches in about 1:45 with bulk rock salt.


so 650 gallons in 30 minutes?
What are you using to test your mixture composition?
Is this a home made brine maker? or a commercially built one?


----------



## Broncslefty7

It's not 100% complete, still need to clean up, tie everything up and brace everything. But we used

2 450 gallon leg tanks
Waterway hot tub cluster jets
Waterway hot tub jet manifolds
120v 3 hp xp2 spa booster pump

Total cost around 1900-2k not including 11 hours of Edgar's labor.

We use a hydrometer for salinity testing, or our spectrometer spinlab from Lamotte which also test for corrosive properties. Which we then add secret pool chemicals to balance to make the solution acid neutral.


----------



## Broncslefty7

We will probably change the three overflow pipes a little, they stick up a little high for my liking but still work well.


----------



## Broncslefty7

Commercial brine makers are very expensive because the majority of them have a giant hammer mill on them to crush down the bulk rock salt, so it will dissolve faster. The hammer mills alone run about 5-7k. Companies that don’t use hammer mills will end up using like two giant 3HP gas motors to the extra agitation if dealing with the large size of bulk rock salt. 

Snow ex has a hammer mill and cost 22k....

I’ll work the hard cost on mine tomorrow.


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> Commercial brine makers are very expensive because the majority of them have a giant hammer mill on them to crush down the bulk rock salt, so it will dissolve faster. The hammer mills alone run about 5-7k. Companies that don't use hammer mills will end up using like two giant 3HP gas motors to the extra agitation if dealing with the large size of bulk rock salt.
> 
> Snow ex has a hammer mill and cost 22k....
> 
> I'll work the hard cost on mine tomorrow.


yea I know

snoe ex has been trying to sell us one of those for three years.
You have specs/numbers on those pumps youre using?


----------



## tpendagast

what are all the little hoses doing?


----------



## Broncslefty7

Little hoses run from
The pressure side pump manifold to the mixture chamber. I’ll take better pics and a video tomorrow.


----------



## Broncslefty7

I’ll post the flow charts tomorrow when I get back in the office.


----------



## gcbailey

Here's the start of what I'm hoping will work for our brine test setup... From left to right.... 1st will be a 200 gal tank going into the filter -> 9gpm electric pump-> another filter ->12v solenoid -> manifold to boom. Like I said, this is pretty much beta if not alpha testing using equipment we currently own for our lawn care side of the business.


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> Little hoses run from
> The pressure side pump manifold to the mixture chamber. I'll take better pics and a video tomorrow.


Yea
But why?
Is it for agitation?


----------



## acswaupaca1

Broncslefty7 said:


> It's not 100% complete, still need to clean up, tie everything up and brace everything. But we used
> 
> 2 450 gallon leg tanks
> Waterway hot tub cluster jets
> Waterway hot tub jet manifolds
> 120v 3 hp xp2 spa booster pump
> 
> Total cost around 1900-2k not including 11 hours of Edgar's labor.
> 
> We use a hydrometer for salinity testing, or our spectrometer spinlab from Lamotte which also test for corrosive properties. Which we then add secret pool chemicals to balance to make the solution acid neutral.
> 
> View attachment 186483
> 
> 
> View attachment 186484
> 
> 
> View attachment 186485
> 
> 
> View attachment 186486
> 
> 
> View attachment 186487


Using *Cyanuric Acid I assume?*


----------



## Broncslefty7

acswaupaca1 said:


> Using *Cyanuric Acid I assume?*


Lol no, not cyanuric acid..... that stabilizes chlorine, that doesn't lower the PH.


----------



## Broncslefty7

tpendagast said:


> Yea
> But why?
> Is it for agitation?


Yeah, you need flow..... you don't want dead spots in the corner where there's no flow because all the salt will just sit there.


----------



## acswaupaca1

Broncslefty7 said:


> Lol no, not cyanuric acid..... that stabilizes chlorine, that doesn't lower the PH.


So shock treatment?


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> Yeah, you need flow..... you don't want dead spots in the corner where there's no flow because all the salt will just sit there.


So it's to get the settling in the corners then?


----------



## Broncslefty7

you need to move water to dilute the salt, if the water is stagnant you wont get up to the salinity level you need to. so you have two tanks, one you put the salt in, with jets to stir it up. The tank is a ballast tank. You fill both tanks up with water. You suck from the lower tank and return the water to the upper tank which dilutes the salt and causes the upper tank to spill over into the lower tank. Its basically two mixing chambers.


Earlier i said you dont need agitation, but in the plumbing world theres flow and agitation. If you have the correct amount of flow, you do not need to add further agitation. Agitation in my book would be air injection, spinner jets, anything to jostle the water around. Let me see if i can make a video of it. im not sure if this forum lets you upload a video unless its on youtube or something.


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> you need to move water to dilute the salt, if the water is stagnant you wont get up to the salinity level you need to. so you have two tanks, one you put the salt in, with jets to stir it up. The tank is a ballast tank. You fill both tanks up with water. You suck from the lower tank and return the water to the upper tank which dilutes the salt and causes the upper tank to spill over into the lower tank. Its basically two mixing chambers.
> 
> Earlier i said you dont need agitation, but in the plumbing world theres flow and agitation. If you have the correct amount of flow, you do not need to add further agitation. Agitation in my book would be air injection, spinner jets, anything to jostle the water around. Let me see if i can make a video of it. im not sure if this forum lets you upload a video unless its on youtube or something.


I understand how to make a brine Maher and how to make brine

Been there done that

I've never seen the little hoses 
NOt on commercial ones built for sale 
Not on anyone else's built at home/in their own shop 
That's why I was asking


----------



## Broncslefty7

oh ok, so those little hoses work awesome through a hot tub manifold, those pumps are moving 90-110 GPM, and we have 9 jets installed. so realistically you have a 3 HP pump moving water through a 2" pipe that then distributes water to 9 1" lines, so there isnt a flow issue. because we are using pool salt which is very clean and very small on the granular scale, we do not need the flow or agitation required of people using bulk rock salt. the pool salt literally almost dissolves before it hits the bottom of the tank. This greatly saves cost when building a brine maker because you dont need huge pumps. if we where ever going to switch to using bulk rock salt i would simply add another spa pump and manifold. the spa pump cost about 180 bucks. its also nice that is electric and we can make the brine inside our heated shop lol. last i checked a 3 HP 230v banjo pump was like 1500 bucks which i thought was insane. the banjos move a lot more water but for us it wasn't needed.


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> oh ok, so those little hoses work awesome through a hot tub manifold, those pumps are moving 90-110 GPM, and we have 9 jets installed. so realistically you have a 3 HP pump moving water through a 2" pipe that then distributes water to 9 1" lines, so there isnt a flow issue. because we are using pool salt which is very clean and very small on the granular scale, we do not need the flow or agitation required of people using bulk rock salt. the pool salt literally almost dissolves before it hits the bottom of the tank. This greatly saves cost when building a brine maker because you dont need huge pumps. if we where ever going to switch to using bulk rock salt i would simply add another spa pump and manifold. the spa pump cost about 180 bucks. its also nice that is electric and we can make the brine inside our heated shop lol. last i checked a 3 HP 230v banjo pump was like 1500 bucks which i thought was insane. the banjos move a lot more water but for us it wasn't needed.


what would you say your cost difference between bulk salt and bagged pool salt is per pound?
OR because you buy it in the off season and dont have to pay for it until may,it offsets the cost difference?


----------



## Broncslefty7

its about 4 cents per pound of salt difference, but the labor savings and the payment terms off set the cost increase.


----------



## acswaupaca1

Broncslefty7 said:


> Lol no, not cyanuric acid..... that stabilizes chlorine, that doesn't lower the PH.


So Muratic acid to lower and Sodium Bicarbonate to raise??


----------



## Broncslefty7

Yeah, but the dry version. The liquid would make a bad reaction.


----------



## acswaupaca1

So what products does everyone suspect are in the amp and apex blends


----------



## tpendagast

acswaupaca1 said:


> So what products does everyone suspect are in the amp and apex blends


Sugar 
Beet 
Juice


----------



## gcbailey

Since I'm attempting my setup using currently owned parts, what type of tips are recommended on the booms? It looks like most are just straight nozzles. 

I've got a bunch of different pattern fan tips, would that be OK for just starting? Also, do you leave the strainer in since I've already got 2 inline filter before the brine hits the boom?


----------



## acswaupaca1

tpendagast said:


> Sugar
> Beet
> Juice


White beets? the APEX-C coloring is very consistently inconsistent.


----------



## tpendagast

acswaupaca1 said:


> White beets? the APEX-C coloring is very consistently inconsistent.


I'm not sure why the beet juice is clear 
Everything I've seen it in has no color 
Unlike molasses based ice melters that are brown/tan/yellow


----------



## tpendagast

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_beet

Apparently sugar beets are not red, like the ones we eat at the dinner table


----------



## acswaupaca1

So I tested my sodium chloride today, over 9.0 pH. How much baking soda should I add per gallon?


----------



## tpendagast

acswaupaca1 said:


> So I tested my sodium chloride today, over 9.0 pH. How much baking soda should I add per gallon?


Someone help me understand why ph matters?

Been doing this for four years and I've never tested the ph


----------



## acswaupaca1

tpendagast said:


> Someone help me understand why ph matters?
> 
> Been doing this for four years and I've never tested the ph


Just looking to knock some of the corrosiveness out of the brine.


----------



## gcbailey

Didn't realize it took a minor in chemistry to be a plow guy  hahaha. Good points though.


----------



## Broncslefty7

Your ideal ph is between 7.2 and 8.0. Anything below 7.0 is acidic, anything above 8.2 is corrosive. The PH of a tear from your eye is 7.4 which is completely neutral. If your ph is around 6.8 you’ll actually be cleaning the concrete sidewalks little by little every application.


----------



## tpendagast

gcbailey said:


> Didn't realize it took a minor in chemistry to be a plow guy  hahaha. Good points though.


We made that exact same joke last year when we realized our supplier has sold us 20,000 gallons of bad brine and made our parking lots actually icier - had to go back and apply granular 
Took a few days and testing with beakers to figure out exactly what happened 
Then started making our own "in the bath tub" so to speak to prove it could be done right. 
Felt like breaking bad

Liquids have only been a "thing" here in anchorage for a short few years.


----------



## tpendagast

acswaupaca1 said:


> Just looking to knock some of the corrosiveness out of the brine.


 Does this actually work as opposed to just adding an organic inhibitor?

What's the cost of tinkering with the ph vs additives?


----------



## Broncslefty7

A 50 lb bag of ph minus cost me 12.00. I might use two bags all season, and we r doing about 45-50k gallons per season. How much would an inhibitor cost for that many gallons?


----------



## Broncslefty7

Here you go, here's a video on our webpage of it

http://www.rizzosnow.com/maxmelt/


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> A 50 lb bag of ph minus cost me 12.00. I might use two bags all season, and we r doing about 45-50k gallons per season. How much would an inhibitor cost for that many gallons?


That's a good question 
I've been trying to find a consistent source of inhibitor

The area is pretty populated with micro breweries 
Apparently the left over byproduct from brewing beer is and excellent inhibitor/synergistic additive

They literally just pour it down the drain 
Been working in net working with the breweries to collect their by product


----------



## acswaupaca1

Broncslefty7 said:


> A 50 lb bag of ph minus cost me 12.00. I might use two bags all season, and we r doing about 45-50k gallons per season. How much would an inhibitor cost for that many gallons?


What is giving your brine the dark color?


----------



## Broncslefty7

Liquid IBG


----------



## tpendagast

Broncslefty7 said:


> Liquid IBG


IBG has an inhibitor in it already


----------



## Broncslefty7

yeah but it also has a PH of between 3.4-5.5 per their SDS sheets (which is very acidic). When you mix with brine it still comes out corrosive. so then you can fine tune it. I use the IBG for the additional melting properties not the corrosion inhibitor. Why inhibit the corrosion when you can neutralize it for pennies?


----------



## acswaupaca1

Can you "pre-neutralize" calcium chloride in the same manner?


----------



## Broncslefty7

im sure you could, but i havnt tried it. Calcium chloride is an entirely different animal.


----------



## gcbailey

So after 27 pages can the new guys to brine get a cliff notes version? haha. I just recently mixed my 1st batch and got to try it out this morning. I was pleased with my boom setup, I'll try to get some pics later but ended up making a 92" boom out of schedule 80 pipe with holes every 4" @ 13/64 holes. Ended up scrapping my initial boom idea using tee jet nozzles that I had laying around.

All that I'm currently doing is a 1.75 acre parking lot. Eventually I'd like to start using it on our other sites but right now just one guinea pig.

Air temp was 25... forgot to bring my IR thermometer to get a parking lot temp but it had a nice layer of black ice.

According to my hydrometer (Thermco GW2511X), my mix was right at 23%. I was pleased with the results after about 25 minutes. Not necessarily looking for someone to hold my hand but should I attempt to "spike" it any or just keep getting familiar with using a straight salt mix? Seldom do our temps get below the teens.


----------



## Broncslefty7

spiking it will only lower the corrosion of the solution and lower the freezing point. i like to spike it even if temps are warm because once you melt snow, the solution becomes diluted and can re freeze causing a problem. by spiking it you avoid most of that.


----------



## tboeving

Curious what spray tips or issues youve solved when using backpack sprayers in putting down liquid on sidewalks. thanks


----------



## Broncslefty7

oh man, back pack sprayers are tough. i had 5 of them from home depot, and they broke alot. i finally said enough is enough and bought the snow ex walk behind, that was one of the best purchases ive ever made, in terms of efficiency. however the nozzle also keeps breaking on it when it falls forward in the truck.


----------



## fireside

Stay away from backpack sprayer. 50lbs on your back in ice and snow no good will come from it. I use a 150’ hose to spray the walks


----------



## Varnerlevi

I’m looking at getting in to the salt brine but I have looked all over and can’t find any information on how long the brine is good for after it’s mixed any information would be great thanks


----------



## Broncslefty7

generally its shelf life is pretty long. You may need to stir it up a little bit if it sits for a coupe of months. The first storm of the year we had was about 2 weeks ago. i used brine from last year for the storm. Temps where kind of warm and it rained after it snowed so it was hard to see the strength of it, but it should have worked just fine.


----------



## Captaingc

tpendagast said:


> Hey cap
> We're in anchorage
> We may be able to give you a hand if you're just starting out.
> Who are you getting your salt from
> Ak mill?


Buying through a Friend of mine. I am going through a lot more than I planned on. So thinking I need a Bulk Supplier that I can send a Side Dump to. If it makes Financial sense.


----------



## Captaingc

tpendagast said:


> Hey cap
> We're in anchorage
> We may be able to give you a hand if you're just starting out.
> Who are you getting your salt from
> Ak mill?


So in my Learning Curve, VS Industries has Been a huge help. I have also talked to State of Alaska DOT guys for hours. I bought a Brine sprayer from VS, It is Amazing!! I Bulk Batch Brine in my Equipment Yard, Currently a 1500 gallon Tank, 1100 Gallons of Sea water to 1 2400 # supersack of Rocksalt. Comes in roughly at 23%. It takes about 24 hours at our temps to get it dissolved. We go through on Pretreatment of our Test lots about 400 gallons of Brine. Did a Post treatment of Packed snow this weekend, 80 gallons per acre and it Kicked butt. I am Sold on Brine!! Now have to find a Cheaper price on salt so I can make $$


----------



## Captaingc

tpendagast said:


> Hey cap
> We're in anchorage
> We may be able to give you a hand if you're just starting out.
> Who are you getting your salt from
> Ak mill?


Give me a Call 907-299-2625


----------



## Captaingc

VS Innovation said:


> I know there area quite a few threads started about liquid de-icing, but I would like to start a thread for any questions related to the entire process from mixing, spraying and sprayer setups, to the final result.
> 
> Our company has been using liquid as our only means of de-icing for the last 4 seasons and have a very large knowledge base on the entire process. We have designed and built every sprayer and brine maker we use.
> 
> No question will go unanswered, and I can promise no rude remarks or comments will be made by myself. I am here to give accurate information and to help clear up any unknowns you may have!


Question?? Is there a time when you go past 80 gallons an acre?


----------



## tpendagast

Captaingc said:


> Question?? Is there a time when you go past 80 gallons an acre?


Yea
110 per acre 
Depends on conditions , temp etc
80/acre is "medium" for us


----------



## tpendagast

Varnerlevi said:


> I'm looking at getting in to the salt brine but I have looked all over and can't find any information on how long the brine is good for after it's mixed any information would be great thanks


Once salt brine is made properly (23.3 percent) it will stay in solution indefinitely..
Liquid calcium however will require stirring your tanks occasionally 
We usually don't have it in storage (liquid calcium) long enough to need to stir them 
We use it fast enough


----------



## tpendagast

Captaingc said:


> So in my Learning Curve, VS Industries has Been a huge help. I have also talked to State of Alaska DOT guys for hours. I bought a Brine sprayer from VS, It is Amazing!! I Bulk Batch Brine in my Equipment Yard, Currently a 1500 gallon Tank, 1100 Gallons of Sea water to 1 2400 # supersack of Rocksalt. Comes in roughly at 23%. It takes about 24 hours at our temps to get it dissolved. We go through on Pretreatment of our Test lots about 400 gallons of Brine. Did a Post treatment of Packed snow this weekend, 80 gallons per acre and it Kicked butt. I am Sold on Brine!! Now have to find a Cheaper price on salt so I can make $$


Hey do you mind divulging about what that brine sprayer cost you AFTER you got it shipped to homer??


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## acswaupaca1

What is everyone's thoughts on Envirotech AMP?


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## acswaupaca1

Curious what the correction of a hydrometer is when tap water is going into the tank at 45°F and the device is calibrated for 60°F


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## Broncslefty7

That’s a really good question, I have been researching that for a long time. My well water comes out around 45-50. My brine gets stuck at like 21.5% for like 15-20 minutes before it hits the 23.3. I’m not sure if it’s water temp or what. I know salt dissolves faster in warm water.


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## Broncslefty7

Also to address earlier comments, we are pre treating 55 GPA post treating 60ish. We rarely see temps below 20.


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## acswaupaca1

Broncslefty7 said:


> Also to address earlier comments, we are pre treating 55 GPA post treating 60ish. We rarely see temps below 20.


Pre-treating everything?


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## fireside

Broncslefty7 said:


> That's a really good question, I have been researching that for a long time. My well water comes out around 45-50. My brine gets stuck at like 21.5% for like 15-20 minutes before it hits the 23.3. I'm not sure if it's water temp or what. I know salt dissolves faster in warm water.


There was talk a long the way of a chart on water tempature vs brine salinity I thought.


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## Broncslefty7

Yeah I remember it but can’t find it, I’ve spoken to a few people about it and have adjusted, but havnt seen the actual data on paper.


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## fireside

Water temp of 59 degrees gives you 23.3% was the only thing I could find. I remember seeing a dam chart.


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## Broncslefty7

I think with the colder temp, it drops to like 22.8


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## gcbailey

Speaking of colder temps.... Just how much do cold temps affect mixing your solution? My first 2 batches were done in a single tank and I quickly realized how bad that sucked! I'm getting several IBC totes this week coming up and plan on making a home brew maker. The totes will be setup outside of our shop so of course temps will be variable......

All that to say, is there some type of chart for temperature compensation or just stick with the 2.3 lb/gal ratio?

EDIT:

The batch I made yesterday, air temps were 36F..... made a small 200 gal mix and got my solution to 20% using the 2.3lb/gal ratio.... That is 20% according to testing it outside in 36F air.


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## Kubota 8540

gcbailey said:


> Speaking of colder temps.... Just how much do cold temps affect mixing your solution? My first 2 batches were done in a single tank and I quickly realized how bad that sucked! I'm getting several IBC totes this week coming up and plan on making a home brew maker. The totes will be setup outside of our shop so of course temps will be variable......
> 
> All that to say, is there some type of chart for temperature compensation or just stick with the 2.3 lb/gal ratio?
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> The batch I made yesterday, air temps were 36F..... made a small 200 gal mix and got my solution to 20% using the 2.3lb/gal ratio.... That is 20% according to testing it outside in 36F air.


Hydrometers are calibrated for reading liquids at a temp of 60F. So if your liquid temp is 60F, the reading you see will be accurate.

If your liquid temp is 50F, your reading on the hydrometer should be 22.3% not 23.3%.

If you were to take a small sample of that batch and warm it up to 60F, then take a reading with the same hydrometer, it will read 23.3%.


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## Kubota 8540

fireside said:


> Water temp of 59 degrees gives you 23.3% was the only thing I could find. I remember seeing a dam chart.


There is a chart on Plowsite, probably long since buried that I posted. But the chart is rather confusing. Just deduct 1% reading for every 10 degress your liquid temp is. Air temp has nothing to do with brine at all. Temp of brine liquid when making, and surface temp when applying.


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## acswaupaca1

Kubota 8540 said:


> There is a chart on Plowsite, probably long since buried that I posted. But the chart is rather confusing. Just deduct 1% reading for every 10 degress your liquid temp is. Air temp has nothing to do with brine at all. Temp of brine liquid when making, and surface temp when applying.


So if water temp is 20°f salinity should read 19.3


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## Kubota 8540

If your water temp is 20F, I believe that would be called ICE ? LOL

But Seriously, yes, that would be correct. If ever in doubt, simply let a sample warm up to 60F and take another reading. If you have the right mix, it will read 23.3%.


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## Kubota 8540

I figured all this out by error while making and storing brine. If you make brine in the summer all this info has to be used in reverse. Any water temps above 60F, add 1% reading to the hydrometer or you can end up with slush in your tanks come winter.


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## BusterHilltop

acswaupaca1 said:


> What is everyone's thoughts on Envirotech AMP?


We used about 200 gallons last year, testing was inconclusive. BUT We did like it and noticed a difference, we just dont have enough data right now to produce solid numbers. We will be doing more testing when it starts snowing again.


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## chachi1984

new to salt brine been reading for a while about it my questions is can the
23.3 salt brine mix be sprayed on salt and left in the salt boxes, used a a treated bulk salt, or is it only for praying sidewalks and parking lots and at the spinner. Is the treated salt you buy any much different ?? Since the 23.3 is water based wasn't sure if it would dissolve the salt if it sitting for a long time


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## Mark Oomkes

chachi1984 said:


> is can the
> 23.3 salt brine mix be sprayed on salt and left in the salt boxes


Yes, but if the salt has any\much moisture before being treated and your trucks are not stored inside, I wouldn't recommend it. Unless you're looking for a workout.



chachi1984 said:


> Is the treated salt you buy any much different ??


Depends...what treated salt?


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## chachi1984

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes, but if the salt has any\much moisture before being treated and your trucks are not stored inside, I wouldn't recommend it. Unless you're looking for a workout.
> 
> Depends...what treated salt?


Used fusion beet juice and Clearlane 
Never had a problem with clumping in the boxes.


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## Mark Oomkes

chachi1984 said:


> Used fusion beet juice and Clearlane


Far superior to salt treated with salt brine.



chachi1984 said:


> Never had a problem with clumping in the boxes.


If you ever have wet salt and leave them outside you will eventually.


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## chachi1984

Mark Oomkes said:


> Far superior to salt treated with salt brine.
> Okay thanks
> 
> If you ever have wet salt and leave them outside you will eventually.


I mean never had a problem with fusion or clearlane clumping in boxes


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## Mark Oomkes

chachi1984 said:


> I mean never had a problem with fusion or clearlane clumping in boxes


Unlikely you will...unless IT was really wet before being treated. The freezing point of both are far lower than salt brine treated salt.


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## chachi1984

Mark Oomkes said:


> Unlikely you will...unless IT was really wet before being treated. The freezing point of both are far lower than salt brine treated salt.


Ya makes sense thanks. What about 90/10 with CC. Would that make a difference? 
Being water based I would think it will still freeze or clump in salt boxes


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## Mark Oomkes

There's a potential, again it depends on the salt. 

Other than the year we treated salt with some cheese whey crap...every single load froze. That crap was a nightmare.


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## Pro-TurfCT

what size solid stream nozzle is everyone running?


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## tpendagast

Mark Oomkes said:


> There's a potential, again it depends on the salt.
> 
> Other than the year we treated salt with some cheese whey crap...every single load froze. That crap was a nightmare.


So that cheese by product doesn't work huh?

I wondered about it...
Have you tried beer by product?


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> So that cheese by product doesn't work huh?


It made life miserable for us.



tpendagast said:


> Have you tried beer by product?


Which one? Corn steep\silk?


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## tpendagast

Mark Oomkes said:


> It made life miserable for us.
> 
> Which one? Corn steep\silk?


I dunno yet 
Read about it last year 
Apparently the left over by product from micro breweries is good for adding to salt brine in a similar way to beet juice


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> I dunno yet
> Read about it last year
> Apparently the left over by product from micro breweries is good for adding to salt brine in a similar way to beet juice


Hmmm...this gives me an idea.


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## Mr.Markus




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## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hmmm...this gives me an idea.


 I can help you with the craft brew waste. How much you need? Meatchicken special worth. :laugh:


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## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> I can help you with the craft brew waste. How much you need? Meatchicken special worth. :laugh:


GR is Beer City USA...we've got a bunch of breweries here that might want to give their stuff away.


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## tpendagast

Mark Oomkes said:


> GR is Beer City USA...we've got a bunch of breweries here that might want to give their stuff away.


We have a ridiculous amount of micro breweries here too (especially per capita) 
I called one of them last year to see what they did with the waste, apparently they pour it right into the drain because it's just hopps/barley and yeast .. like pouring out spoiled milk or orange juice.

I was hoping I was about to give them a solution to cheaper disposal of their waste product 
But pouring it down the drain is kinda free ...
Guy sounded like it might be a pain in the ass to collect it in a tote for me too and wait til I picked it up. 
I don't drink, so I don't have a connection/rapport.
We plow one of the micro breweries ... I might use that avenue to get some and test with it.

One of the guys at work makes some with a mini set up in his house and I was like can I get 20 gallons of waste? 
His eyes popped out of his head... how much do you think I make in the first place?

Oh... yea huh... so you don't drink a few hundred gallons of beer on a regular basis I gather?


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## Hydromaster

If we were strictly following the beer purity act from Germany the turb would only have malt which is barly, yeast, hops and water.

Barley would leave a lot of solids plus all these hipsters who love all these new flavors like wheat beer . Some brews call for other grains creating a lot of solids.
Turb also has a very high pH level.
It is high in sugar ( but not as high as beet juice)and it does contain some alcohol and It will have a lot of solids.

Also a lot of breweries have a waste treatment tank on site while others will load a tote of turb for you, if you cut the complete top off.
Because the local sanitary treatment plant may not like the turb dumped down the drain.

https://www.craftbrewingbusiness.com/equipment-systems/wastewater-basics-growing-craft-brewery/


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## J. Dion

Pro-TurfCT said:


> what size solid stream nozzle is everyone running?


Hey there we are running 3 gal/min SS teejet as a post treat(running 75-85/acer) and sj teejet @ 1 gal/min for pre treat. Seems to be working this year @ 40 - 45 gal/acer as a pre treat. With all this high moisture snow


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## BossPlow2010




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## spyda

Pro-TurfCT said:


> what size solid stream nozzle is everyone running?


.


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## BLIZARD BUSTERS

Has anyone tried to make brine out of triple melt or aspen melt does still work down to -15 or -7 as if you were to use it in rock form? I currently use dyed rock salt for brine. How do you measure the correct amount 23.3% ? My calcium chloride is in flake form and it’s expensive and no place to buy straight liquid? The questions that wonder my brain all day


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## tpendagast

BLIZARD BUSTERS said:


> Has anyone tried to make brine out of triple melt or aspen melt does still work down to -15 or -7 as if you were to use it in rock form? I currently use dyed rock salt for brine. How do you measure the correct amount 23.3% ? My calcium chloride is in flake form and it's expensive and no place to buy straight liquid? The questions that wonder my brain all day


Ok

So has anyone tried to make liquid deicer from bagged mixed material?
Is that the question?

Yes

Does it work

Yes

What's the mixture 
No clue 
I went through that last year 
Calcium and sodium need to be measured independently with different hydrometers 
When mixed before measuring the liquid you just have no idea what the actual percentages are.

So it's random hit or miss, both for your product quality/consistency and cost controlling

It also seemed to take a very long time to make a small batch (nearly an hour for just 300 gallons)

You can buy a hydrometer off of amazon and a beaker to hold your Brine for testing 
Depending on which hydrometer you buy, your reading needs to be slightly over 23 (but not 24 that's bad) or 88 
At 60 degrees farenheit 
Lower temp of brine moves the numbers a little... you can download a chart for adjustment.

It's better to make your own brine 
Then add the flake calcium into your spray tank when your going to use it.
Have the pump running to agitate/circulate 
15-20 minutes before you apply ... typically I let it agitate as I'm driving out to the place I'm going to apply at

How much calcium flake you add depends on how cold/how much ice you're melting and how much brine you're adding it to.


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## 96f250

Good morning 

We’ve started mixing liquid calcium chloride with Peladow following the directions from there website. It works great when we treat a bucket of salt prior to loading in the truck when temperatures are below 10 degrees. We also have a snowrator and I was thinking of loading the tank and pre treating sidewalks with it. Will the liquid calcium at 32% work well on pre treating surfaces? I know must use a salt brine to ore treat and they pre wet with liquid calcium


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## FredG

96f250 said:


> Good morning
> 
> We've started mixing liquid calcium chloride with Peladow following the directions from there website. It works great when we treat a bucket of salt prior to loading in the truck when temperatures are below 10 degrees. We also have a snowrator and I was thinking of loading the tank and pre treating sidewalks with it. Will the liquid calcium at 32% work well on pre treating surfaces? I know must use a salt brine to ore treat and they pre wet with liquid calcium


 There is a bunch of videos on tubeyou with guys making brine with bagged material.


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## 96f250

FredG said:


> There is a bunch of videos on tubeyou with guys making brine with bagged material.


I'm not really worried about the mixing part we've done that already. I'm looking for info on using it as a lee treatment or surfaces prior to storms and how it works or if I should just use it in a preset system


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## ocplowco




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## ocplowco




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## ocplowco

Here is are set up running tee-jets. pre brine Al air induction flat tip spray Al95EVS
post brine StreamJet SJ3 Fertilizer Spray Nozzles Part #: SJ3-VP tip 1.5 
Both right and left sides of the boom pop right off for easy replacement. Then can also be moved out 6" to adjust for the property we our on.


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## mnlefty

Just wanted to publicly give a shout out here to Adam at VSI. A group of us from our company had a visit with him at their facility yesterday afternoon. (nice to be semi-local) We came away thoroughly impressed with his knowledge and presentation of their equipment and the liquid de-icing business in general.


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## gcbailey

Is there somewhere in this thread I can go back and read up on additives? I feel pretty comfortable with our "basic" brine making now, I'll post some pics in a few days of the maker I've built (IBC tote style) but now want to get educated some more on things I can add to the "basic" mix. Most importantly things to be more concrete "friendly".


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## ocplowco

Use calcium chloride for concrete.


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## Brad3403

Can someone tell me what size pump works well for setting up a liquid anti/de-icer system in a pick-up truck. To use for SIDEWALKS only. As well as any recommendations on a spray nozzle....thanks.


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## Mark Oomkes

ocplowco said:


> Use calcium chloride for concrete.


To make concrete?


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> To make concrete?


We use chloride in concrete...2-3%...But I think this gentleman was referring to anti-icing applications...


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> We use chloride in concrete...2-3%...But I think this gentleman was referring to anti-icing applications...


If you say so...but I don't think calcium is the "additive" that @gcbailey was axing aboot.


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## acswaupaca1

mnlefty said:


> Just wanted to publicly give a shout out here to Adam at VSI. A group of us from our company had a visit with him at their facility yesterday afternoon. (nice to be semi-local) We came away thoroughly impressed with his knowledge and presentation of their equipment and the liquid de-icing business in general.


VSI is definitely the go to company when it comes to sprayers built for post treating. Every other company seems to be half in the game.


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## acswaupaca1

I'm looking into building a 3 lane all electric sprayer. I'm looking at the load draw of the pumps i'm considering. Each pump has a 15 Amp motor that i'm looking to wire into a relay that turns on when the valve for its section is opened. The center boom will turn on with controller to provide recirculation and for a hose reel. When I look into snow plow hydraulic pumps they all operate around 160 Amps. So am I correct in thinking that a 200 amp alternator can handle 3 pumps?


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## gcbailey

Finally got a more permanent brine setup built. Went with the typical 2 tank setup but added a third holding holding tank and ability to add future holding tanks.


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## psd104

Can someone Clarify to me in regards to mixing brine and calcium chloride liquid? I would like to spray an 80/20 mix. Now probably a dumb question ,can you make the salt brine and make cacl separate and mix together ie... 80 gal of nacl and 20 gal of cacl to get a 80-20 mix. Or is that to easy????


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## ocplowco

More like 100 gallons of brine to 20 gallons of calcium


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## Luther

ocplowco said:


> More like 100 gallons of brine to 20 gallons of calcium


Sorry.... 80% of 120 gallons is 96 gallons.


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## KevinCarter1988

spyda said:


> View attachment 188539
> View attachment 188540
> .


Where are you buying these? Looking online and see a pretty big price tag.


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## CaliberGSD

Can you use a treated rock salt to make brine? For example the Reinders “No More Ice Melter”? It’s a calcium chloride coated rock salt.


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## ocplowco

psd104 said:


> Can someone Clarify to me in regards to mixing brine and calcium chloride liquid? I would like to spray an 80/20 mix. Now probably a dumb question ,can you make the salt brine and make cacl separate and mix together ie... 80 gal of nacl and 20 gal of cacl to get a 80-20 mix. Or is that to easy????


Its always best to mix them separately and then add to sprayer.


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## tpendagast

CaliberGSD said:


> Can you use a treated rock salt to make brine? For example the Reinders "No More Ice Melter"? It's a calcium chloride coated rock salt.


So technically no

if you have a salimeter it won't read right with mixed product do you don't know what your result is

they need to be made separately and then blended

but you could do it anyway and experiment blindly to see what you get
I mean that's what cooks do when they done up with a new recipe for food

you CAN do it
It's not recommended 
Alan calcium is exothermic 
When you make it a liquid it gets hot 
People have melted their tanks , hoses and pumps before

so you have to add it slow and watch temps
It's not rocket science 
But it's more effort than most want to invest


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## CharlesVickers

Hey guys very new to the site, thanks for all the help so far.. I made up a batch of brine, had it at 23.5 ish on the meter, checked again the next day same thing, so transferred it to my holding tank,went hack the next day, checked out the salinity and it was around 24.5, any thoughts as to why increase? 
Thanks in advanced


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## CaliberGSD

CharlesVickers said:


> Hey guys very new to the site, thanks for all the help so far.. I made up a batch of brine, had it at 23.5 ish on the meter, checked again the next day same thing, so transferred it to my holding tank,went hack the next day, checked out the salinity and it was around 24.5, any thoughts as to why increase?
> Thanks in advanced


Is your storage tank sealed? Water can evaporate which will make the salinity go up.


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## CharlesVickers

CaliberGSD said:


> Is your storage tank sealed? Water can evaporate which will make the salinity go up.


Yupp she was all sealed up..I'm so confused, it's my first batch ever too so it makes it even more difficult to troubleshoot lol.


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## CaliberGSD

How much space is available in the storage tank? Could just be condensing at the top.


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## CharlesVickers

CharlesVickers said:


> Yupp she was all sealed up..I'm so confused, it's my first batch ever too so it makes it even more difficult to troubleshoot lol.


Can water evaporate in a sealed tank but just condensate on the non filled parts? It's a 270 gallon tank with 40 gallons if brine. We recently had a temperature swing from 25 to almost 50 today!


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## CharlesVickers

CharlesVickers said:


> Can water evaporate in a sealed tank but just condensate on the non filled parts? It's a 270 gallon tank with 40 gallons if brine. We recently had a temperature swing from 25 to almost 50 today!


Should I just leave it and when temps drop down the water should drop back into the solution then test and adjust?


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## CaliberGSD

Built my brine maker. Testing it out for the first time and I am a bit confused. I have practically a full mixing tank lets just say 250gal and then 75gal of water in the second. I calculate about 16 x 50lb bagish. Only have 11 bags in and was mixing for an hour and my refractometer is still off the charts. Am I missing something? Thanks!


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## fireside

There is a slide chart online. Water temperature affect salinity. Could just be water is warm or colder


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## CharlesVickers

fireside said:


> There is a slide chart online. Water temperature affect salinity. Could just be water is warm or colder


 Where do you find this chart? I found a pretty old document but it gives temperature ranges that are pretty big and for adjustments..


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## NBRam1500

Make sure to rinse your Meter between tests


325 gallons of water approx 850lbs of salt should get you in the 26% range at 100°

Are you using hot water or cold ? Will blend faster with hot water

Let me know how you make out. Our first year making our own brine also


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## NBRam1500

This is what we use to test


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## Jmahoney

What kind of pressures are you running to the spray booms. I have an electric pump now @ 13gpm. Not sure about the pressures it produces but with the volume of spray my vehicle speed is about 4mph max. Im thinking of keeping my boom and tank and going to a gas pump.


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## brknlinn

NBRam1500 said:


> This is what we use to test


Where did you purchase this meter? I found one on Amazon but it only has a range of up to 10%. Can you share the model number for this Thanks


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## ocplowco

19 to 20 50lb bags, to 400 gallons make perfect 23.3% brine every time no need to worry about temp. why 19-20 not all salt will dissolve.


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## Subs Charlie

Well, it's taken me a few days to get through all 32 pages. 
I've taken a plethora of screen shots to slowly go through and take notes from, and then come back with the questions. 
But to answer the recent question of the level change, the charts I've seen and based on what I've learned, it is all based on the water being 60°f. So take a sample into the house to warm it.
There's no other reason for the % to change, unless stored for an extended period of time. And even then, a good stir/agitation would restore the settled goodness.

I'm not sure why Broncslefty isn't coming up for a tag, the Jersey Pool Company guy? I was looking to ask him some fitting questions, as I too would have access to some similar maker fittings. 
But ya, I'll be back with some variety of questions. 
Thank you all so very much for sharing your experiences and knowledge. Planning to build a maker, and run some trials this, and probably next season, to get a better understanding prior to offering the service. Definitely like the sounds of a better scrape, as many of our drives are narrow and center pitched, so that hard pack left down the middle has been a horrendous burden and post event granular waste.
Plus some of the distances that you guys are able to treat in a single pass, darn is that impressive! 
I'm curious though, anybody rig a boom off the back of a rear mount plow? I'd imagine even greater widths could be achieved with some psi & gpm alterations?
Again, thanks for sharing all this wisdom!


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