# Hourly Rate



## JP Tank

Hey Guys,
First post for me... 
I am new to bidding snow plowing and I have a site that I bid per push. I used $85 per hour using 4 normal trucks or skid loaders with normal buckets. He has come back to me asking for hourly rates for each machine. Meaning he doesn't want to use my per push price but just pay me for the time I spend on site per machine.
I was bidding $85 per hour for normal plow trucks with v-blade and same for skid loader with normal bucket. 
The problem was that I was planning on using more efficient equipment than what I bid so I could get the work done faster than my bid and thus make more profit.
I plan on using pusher buckets on the skid loaders, snow power back drag blades on pickups, and metal pless or snow wolf or artic sectional pusher on a smaller payloader.

So with that being said... What should I charge per item for these items:

1ton with 16' snow power back blade and 9.5 v-plow in front
Skid loader with 8' snow wolf Quatro pusher
120 hp Kubota tractor with 14' metal pless in front
Kubota R630 (small payloader) with 13' metal pless or similar on front

Right in the middle of cheeshead country

Thanks guys


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## BossPlow2010

Huh?


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## JP Tank

BossPlow2010 said:


> Huh?


What should I charge per hour for each piece... 
I know that I shouldn't charge the same rate for a pay loader with metal pless as a pickup truck with v-blade


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## BossPlow2010

Do you have each piece?


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## JP Tank

BossPlow2010 said:


> Do you have each piece?


not yet


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## BossPlow2010

Purchasing or renting?


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## JP Tank

BossPlow2010 said:


> Purchasing or renting?


I have some of the equipment... I have 3 plow trucks with v-blades I want to upgrade two of them to snow power back plows
I have a 3 skid loaders with regular buckets... I want to upgrade to snow wolf quatro or similar...
I have a 120 hp Kubota tractor... I want to put the metal pless on it
The payloader I may rent or purchase depending on what sort of deal I can find. I can use it the rest of the year in my construction business.
Project that I am bidding is roughly 350,000 sf.


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## Hydromaster

Wouldn’t you need to know what it is going to
Cost you to run that equipment per hr
What your cost of renting , leasing or buying said equipment.

Then we can work on your profit margin


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## JP Tank

Hydromaster said:


> Wouldn't you need to know what it is going to
> Cost you to run that equipment per hr
> What your cost of renting , leasing or buying said equipment.
> 
> Then we can work on your profit margin


I am not asking what my profit margin is... I'm asking what the going rate is for these pieces of equipment. I need to find out what other people are charging for these types of items and that will tell me what the market is willing to pay me.
Then I can figure out what the payback will be or if I can even afford the items. It does no good to come up with my own price based on what I "want" to get paid. I need to find out what others are getting paid for this type of equipment and go from there.
Right?
If I want to adjust up or down a little bit compared to others pricing, I can as long as I can justify to my client that I am doing a better job than my competitors if I am high or justify to myself that I am still making enough money if I am low.
But its all based on what the other guy is currently charging, not what I want to get paid.
Am I way off by thinking this way?


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## BossPlow2010

The pieces of equipment you listed for pushers is some pretty expensive metal, and you already submitted a bid of 85 bucks an hour. So you’re kinda screwed


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## JP Tank

BossPlow2010 said:


> The pieces of equipment you listed for pushers is some pretty expensive metal, and you already submitted a bid of 85 bucks an hour. So you're kinda screwed


I submitted a bid of 85 per hour for a regular plow truck... The manager knows that larger equipment means larger price. 
It will take me 11.125 hours using 32,000sf. per hour if I did it with one truck.
Three trucks and a skid loader I figured would be 2.79hrs.
tiered pricing 
1-3"=Base price
3-6"=Base + 30%
6-12"= another 30%
12"+=T&M
This is what I bid to him.
If I go with larger equipment I will be able to do this with less pieces or will be able to do it in less time allowing my pieces to be off to the next site making more money.

So back to my main question...
He does not want per push pricing... he wants hourly pricing per piece.
I want to find out what others are charging for each piece that I have listed in my first post.
Can anyone help me with this please?


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## Ajlawn1

JP Tank said:


> I submitted a bid of 85 per hour for a regular plow truck... The manager knows that larger equipment means larger price.
> It will take me 11.125 hours using 32,000sf. per hour if I did it with one truck.
> Three trucks and a skid loader I figured would be 2.79hrs.
> tiered pricing
> 1-3"=Base price
> 3-6"=Base + 30%
> 6-12"= another 30%
> 12"+=T&M
> This is what I bid to him.
> If I go with larger equipment I will be able to do this with less pieces or will be able to do it in less time allowing my pieces to be off to the next site making more money.
> 
> So back to my main question...
> He does not want per push pricing... he wants hourly pricing per piece.
> I want to find out what others are charging for each piece that I have listed in my first post.
> Can anyone help me with this please?


So let me understand this, you want to do paid by the hour work faster...?


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## JP Tank

Ajlawn1 said:


> So let me understand this, you want to do paid by the hour work faster...?


NO. I do not want to do by the hour work faster.. 
I want to charge more per hour for faster equipment... 
I originally gave him a per push bid using normal equipment. I stated that I wanted to upgrade so I could do it faster with more profit.

Then the guy asked for hourly pricing.
I don't know what hourly pricing should be for larger equipment, so I am asking you guys...
When I gave him a per push price, I based it on the slowest equipment and figured if I wanted to upgrade I could do so at anytime. 
Now I have to give him a price for bigger equipment if I want to use bigger equipment...


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## prezek

Can’t you just work backwards off your per push price? If you figured 11 hours at 85 per hour, and now will take you 5.5 with better equipment, you’d be at 170/hour for that piece of equipment...a bit simplistic, but...


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## Mr.Markus

prezek said:


> Can't you just work backwards off your per push price? If you figured 11 hours at 85 per hour, and now will take you 5.5 with better equipment, you'd be at 170/hour for that piece of equipment...a bit simplistic, but...


No that would give him his cost...he wants the market cost that others charge. The best way to arrive at this number would be to ask the client what he paid last season and then ask the guy who did it what he was paid. These 2 numbers will never be the same...


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## JP Tank

prezek said:


> Can't you just work backwards off your per push price? If you figured 11 hours at 85 per hour, and now will take you 5.5 with better equipment, you'd be at 170/hour for that piece of equipment...a bit simplistic, but...


This is true I guess if I want to stay at the same profit per hour but I would have to know exactly what my production rate will be with a bigger piece of equipment... So if I am figuring 32,000sf. per hour with a regular $85 truck... how many sf. can I do with any of my listed equipment? I don't know these productions rates. Can I plow 1.3 times as fast with a back drag blade or skid loader with snow wolf pusher? Can I plow 2 or 3 times faster with a payloader with metal pless or Kubota 120hp tractor with metal pless on the front?
I think that 32,000 sf. per hour for a v-plow at 1" to 3" is conservative but I wanted to be conservative on my estimates.


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## sota

I would posit that, you shouldn't be discussing hourly rates, but per-job rates. It shouldn't matter if you use 6 guys with shovels or an excavator; that's up to you and you should be able to use the tools needed to get the job done in time. This gives you flexibility in case of equipment troubles.


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## JP Tank

sota said:


> I would posit that, you shouldn't be discussing hourly rates, but per-job rates. It shouldn't matter if you use 6 guys with shovels or an excavator; that's up to you and you should be able to use the tools needed to get the job done in time. This gives you flexibility in case of equipment troubles.


Well, The client asked for hourly rates per machine... that is how he is having everyone else quote it as well...
Either I play ball and price it like that or move on.
Again all I asked in my original post was what are other people on this site are charging for the equipment listed...


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## BossPlow2010

JP Tank said:


> Well, The client asked for hourly rates per machine... that is how he is having everyone else quote it as well...
> Either I play ball and price it like that or move on.
> Again all I asked in my original post was what are other people on this site are charging for the equipment listed...


Unfortunately, if anyone on here gives you their pricing, it really won't help you.
That price you listed for your trucks that you figure 85 bucks an hour, I was getting that as a sub contractor with an 8'2 vee in 2010, so the company was billing more than that per hour. 
And today for a truck we're billing way more than that per hour.
I don't have the other equipment you listed, but a little tid bit of information: unless the manager is up to date on snow and ice management and industry stds and so fourth, he's not going to know the different between a pro tech and a metal pless.


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## cwren2472

JP Tank said:


> I submitted a bid of 85 per hour for a regular plow truck... The manager knows that larger equipment means larger price.
> It will take me 11.125 hours using 32,000sf. per hour if I did it with one truck.
> Three trucks and a skid loader I figured would be 2.79hrs.


Just curious, how do you calculate that it'll take 2 hours, 47 minutes, and 24 seconds to complete a hypothetical job?


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## Ajlawn1

JP Tank said:


> Well, The client asked for hourly rates per machine... that is how he is having everyone else quote it as well...
> Either I play ball and price it like that or move on.
> Again all I asked in my original post was what are other people on this site are charging for the equipment listed...


The property you're looking at doing is 8 acres... This is probably a couple hour job on a normal snowfall for 2-3 trucks... I have a 8 acre property a guy does in a backhoe with 12' box in 2-3 hours...

Hourly sucks! It's just their way to feel like they are controlling and monitoring costs... There is no incentive for to bust butt and get it done in a timely fashion for the client.

I had a mall I gave pricing to that wanted hourly and numbers were double normal just because there is to much manpower and iron involved to have it not make money... And that's the whole point of what we are doing, not to say I have this many accounts...


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## Randall Ave

In Jersey here. Pick up at least $125.00 per hr. I've heard guys with skids over $200.00 an hour.


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## cjames808

Those $85 are SUB prices. 

They are charging the actual client double that.

Skid-$135-$175 with pusher 
Payloader-$185-$275 "how big is it?"

Heres how you get your efficiency moneys, "4 hour minimum" do it in 2.


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## JP Tank

cjames808 said:


> Those $85 are SUB prices.
> 
> They are charging the actual client double that.
> 
> Skid-$135-$175 with pusher
> Payloader-$185-$275 "how big is it?"
> 
> Heres how you get your efficiency moneys, "4 hour minimum" do it in 2.


Great idea! Awesome thank you


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## JP Tank

Ajlawn1 said:


> The property you're looking at doing is 8 acres... This is probably a couple hour job on a normal snowfall for 2-3 trucks... I have a 8 acre property a guy does in a backhoe with 12' box in 2-3 hours...
> 
> Hourly sucks! It's just their way to feel like they are controlling and monitoring costs... There is no incentive for to bust butt and get it done in a timely fashion for the client.
> 
> I had a mall I gave pricing to that wanted hourly and numbers were double normal just because there is to much manpower and iron involved to have it not make money... And that's the whole point of what we are doing, not to say I have this many accounts...


OK thanks! These were the type of answers I was hoping for! This helps me a lot. I agree, I am not a fan of bidding this hourly. So either raise my hourly price or charge a minimum amount of hours.


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## JP Tank

I realize that everyones area is going to be different as far as prices go. In my area $85 is top dollar for a truck. So let's ask the question this way... If you charge 100per hr for a truck and 185 for a medium size payloader, that is 85% higher for the payloader.
What percentage are you guys raising prices for each piece?
Large piece ÷ truck price = percentage


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## cjames808

No one uses an equation like that. 

It’s the cost per hour to operate: fuel ins labor overhead, plus profit which is a percentage would be more common.


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## JP Tank

cjames808 said:


> No one uses an equation like that.
> 
> It's the cost per hour to operate: fuel ins labor overhead, plus profit which is a percentage would be more common.


Thanks for the help and for breaking down your price increases in a percentage per piece. Your answer was very helpful.....
I don't care if that's not how you do it... I want to see if there is a correlation by percentage between different pieces. Has this question ever been asked on this site? Just because you don't do it this way doesn't mean it's not worth the time to ask the question. If everyone is roughly the same increase between implements, that would be an interesting thing to know...


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## BossPlow2010

So what is this 8 acre property that doesn’t use a national to maintain their services?


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## JP Tank

BossPlow2010 said:


> So what is this 8 acre property that doesn't use a national to maintain their services?


Yeah


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## BossPlow2010

JP Tank said:


> Yeah


Understood


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## iceyman

JP Tank said:


> Yeah


Are you working stRaight for property owner? Or a management company?


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## JP Tank

iceyman said:


> Are you working stRaight for property owner? Or a management company?


Owner


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## iceyman

JP Tank said:


> Owner


I think You should be getting way more than sub rates then but idk i could be wrong


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## Randall Ave

iceyman said:


> I think You should be getting way more than sub rates then but idk i could be wrong


Maybe that's what the rate is out there. But not here.


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## JP Tank

A sample answer to the question would be:
HI JP Tank, thanks for starting this great thread. My rates are as follows:
Truck with regular plow is my lowest price machine (base rate)...
My Skid loader with pusher is base +15%
My truck with 16' back drag is base +25%
My tractor with pusher is base +50%
My payloader with pusher is base +85%

If we had 10 answers like that, that would be very informative for everyone I bet. I realize that it's bidding season and no one wants to give out their prices, but we don't even need to know your dollar amount for any of the implements... Just what machine is your base rate and percentage increase from there. 
Give it a whirl guys


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## BossPlow2010

JP Tank said:


> A sample answer to the question would be:
> HI JP Tank, thanks for starting this great thread. My rates are as follows:
> Truck with regular plow is my lowest price machine (base rate)...
> My Skid loader with pusher is base +15%
> My truck with 16' back drag is base +25%
> My tractor with pusher is base +50%
> My payloader with pusher is base +85%
> 
> If we had 10 answers like that, that would be very informative for everyone I bet. I realize that it's bidding season and no one wants to give out their prices, but we don't even need to know your dollar amount for any of the implements... Just what machine is your base rate and percentage increase from there.
> Give it a whirl guys


Why don't you calculate your own pricing instead, no one here should do it for you, And then when you're done give it to the store manager like he asked, or don't I don't care.

Give it a whirl


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## JP Tank

I explained why above


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## FourDiamond

We have only two hourly clients, Both require us to be on site from the first flake until the job is complete. We get paid from the time we step on property until we leave. Rates are $85.00 per hour for a 1 ton dump, $125.00 for backhoe w/12 foot push box, and $150.00 for wheel loader w/ 12 foot push box. Prices are low, but sometimes we sit there for 2-3 hours until there is anything to push.


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## Mr.Markus

I would do $25 in town drives before i worked a truck for $85/hr.
1 every 15 min would net me $100/hr and I would consider that slow...


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## JP Tank

FourDiamond said:


> We have only two hourly clients, Both require us to be on site from the first flake until the job is complete. We get paid from the time we step on property until we leave. Rates are $85.00 per hour for a 1 ton dump, $125.00 for backhoe w/12 foot push box, and $150.00 for wheel loader w/ 12 foot push box. Prices are low, but sometimes we sit there for 2-3 hours until there is anything to push.


Oh ok nice so that will be something I have ask the owner is if there is a required amount of time we have to be there. We have other jobs but this will be a priority job. We have a 1 inch trigger. So I'm guessing that we start at 1" and every time there is another inch accumulated even in the same storm, we would have to start again.?.? With that big of a lot, we would really be plowing from the time it is at 1 inch until snow is done because it may be 1" deep again by the time we finish the first push.


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## JP Tank

Mr.Markus said:


> I would do $25 in town drives before i worked a truck for $85/hr.
> 1 every 15 min would net me $100/hr and I would consider that slow...


Yes I was going to send out mailers to residentials in a few weeks depending on how much commercial I get. I think Residential could be more profitable but more of a headache for logistics.


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## FourDiamond

Mr.Markus said:


> I would do $25 in town drives before i worked a truck for $85/hr.
> 1 every 15 min would net me $100/hr and I would consider that slow...


Our gross gross revenue from these two locations are 100,000+ per season, so you can plow your $25.00 driveways all winter.


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## cjames808

JP Tank said:


> A sample answer to the question would be:
> HI JP Tank, thanks for starting this great thread. My rates are as follows:
> Truck with regular plow is my lowest price machine (base rate)...
> My Skid loader with pusher is base +15%
> My truck with 16' back drag is base +25%
> My tractor with pusher is base +50%
> My payloader with pusher is base +85%
> 
> If we had 10 answers like that, that would be very informative for everyone I bet. I realize that it's bidding season and no one wants to give out their prices, but we don't even need to know your dollar amount for any of the implements... Just what machine is your base rate and percentage increase from there.
> Give it a whirl guys


Every year a there is handful of the exact same threads, wants everyone's pricing and costs and charges etc. This is a public forum and my business feeds many members of my family. Customers, competitors and possible no good nicks have access here. Google picks up threads on Plowsite.

I did give you very helpful accurate pricing from my area Metro Milwaukee. And guess what my prices went up this year. Salt is permanently more and insurance guys musta got into the meths cause our rates literally go up up up.


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## cjames808

FourDiamond said:


> Our gross gross revenue from these two locations are 100,000+ per season, so you can plow your $25.00 driveways all winter.


This is going off into the rhubarbs.


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## JP Tank

cjames808 said:


> I did give you very helpful accurate pricing from my area Metro Milwaukee.


Yes you did, you gave one of the most helpful answers so far!
And I understand this is sensitive business for everyone. It's our livelihood.


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## Mr.Markus

cjames808 said:


> This is going off into the rhubarbs.





FourDiamond said:


> Our gross gross revenue from these two locations are 100,000+ per season, so you can plow your $25.00 driveways all winter.


Not my point, i dont do $25 drives either.


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## Hydromaster

JP Tank said:


> Yes I was going to send out mailers to residentials in a few weeks depending on how much commercial I get. I think Residential could be more profitable but more of a headache for logistics.


The average rate of return on direct mail campaigns is generally 2 percent, according to JWM Business Services; in a campaign involving 100 pieces of mail, two to four people can be 
expected to respond.

Are you going to deal with residential drives or commercial properties?
I thought you were involved in commercial properties.
you want to contact the commercial properties personally .
Jmo.

I've never had a commercial property want my numbers on what my operating costs are for my equipment per hour.

How many acres can you clear per hour with said machine unless you have operated it and you're proficient how would you know what this number is ?

And then one day if you drive a little faster and you plow the lot and half the time won't they wonder about the difference in the rate you're charging to perform the same work?

What about your salt cost? what's your cost per ton applyed per hr?

That's why you have to figure out what your numbers are .
you could bid but what the average company in your area is charging and you could still lose money .
thats why nobody is giving you their numbers .

You need sit down with a sharp pencil and figure it out for yourself, if this is going to be a profitable endever or not.

Ps

Do you have experienced operators lined up?


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## JP Tank

Hydromaster said:


> The average rate of return on direct mail campaigns is generally 2 percent, according to JWM Business Services; in a campaign involving 100 pieces of mail, two to four people can be expected to respond.
> 
> Are you going to deal with residential drives or commercial properties?
> I thought you were involved in commercial properties.
> you want to contact the commercial properties personally .
> Jmo.
> 
> I've never had a commercial property want my numbers on what my operating costs are for my equipment per hour.
> 
> What about your salt cost? what's your cost per ton applyed per hr?
> 
> That's why you have to figure out what your numbers are .
> you could bid but what the average company in your area is charging and you could still lose money .
> thats why nobody is giving you their numbers .
> 
> You need sit down with a sharp pencil and figure it out for yourself, if this is going to be a profitable emdever or not.


I'm at 7% response rate right now on direct mails for commercial properties.
Why can't I do both commercials and residentials? 
No one has asked me what my operating costs are... The guy wants the rate I'm charging for each piece.

I am still trying to find a good supplier for salt.


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## Hydromaster

JP Tank said:


> I'm at 7% response rate right now on direct mails for commercial properties.
> Why can't I do both commercials and residentials?
> No one has asked me what my operating costs are... The guy wants the rate I'm charging for each piece.
> 
> I am still trying to find a good supplier for salt.


 You can plow Commercial or residential what ever you want .
7% is extremely high, good for you.
How many of them did you actually get to sign your contract ?

Are you plowing these drives by the minute, hour, per-push or seasonal?
What is your minimum rate ?

As others have said and I will say again ,
I never bid a job by the hour
I bid by the job For commercial amd my residential is seasonal

We could have 4 loaders all equipped the same .
With four different operators in the cab.
Send them all to plow the same lot with the same 3 inches of snow each of them will do it in a different time.

Or insurance costs your employer cost your Workmen's Comp. all of your cost of doing business are going to be different from mine.

we could give you our numbers and you could either be high , low and lose money or you could be in the middle .
that's why it's best to always figure out your own costs. 
were not ragging on you were just being honest.

Yes ,there are industry standards but they vary.

I would never share what's going on behind the curtain with my business to another business owner because he will share your information with the other contractors


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## JP Tank

Hydromaster said:


> You can plow Commercial or residential what ever you want .
> 7% is extremely high, good for you.
> How many of them did you actually get to sign your contract ?
> 
> Are you plowing these drives by the minute, hour, per-push or seasonal?
> What is your minimum rate ?


I'm still bidding, so I don't know my conversion rate of those who have responded to the direct mailer yet. I will say that it wasn't really a direct mailer, it was a letter that I typed up and mailed to them. A more personalized letter than a post card.

The drives I am going to try for $45 per push and then tier up depending on accumulation.
Not sure if I should include shoveling with that or not.


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## Hydromaster

What happens when you try to get them on a per push plan is they won’t want you to come unless there’s X amount of snow ,below this # they will take care of it themselves or they will only call you when there’s a big storm.

Try selling them on a seasonal contract which is like having snow insurance .

Unlimited plowing from November to April with the storm clause And of coarse salt is extra. 

The sidewalk from the house to the garage is extra and so would the city sidewalk.
do your best to avoid getting out of the truck think about hireing one or two guys that do nothing but sidewalks for you

Figure out what the average snowfall and the average snow events per year .
To get your numbers.

And then if it doesn’t snow and your profit margin will increase.

but that’s just how I do residentials .

Good luck


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## JP Tank

cwren2472 said:


> Just curious, how do you calculate that it'll take 2 hours, 47 minutes, and 24 seconds to complete a hypothetical job?


355,993sf Divided by 32,000 per hour = 11.125 for one truck to do the whole job... Divided by 4 trucks = 2.79 hours

I realize that 32,000 sf per hour per truck is slow


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## JP Tank

Hydromaster said:


> What happens when you try to get them on a per push plan is they won't want you to come unless there's X amount of snow ,below this # they will take care of it themselves or they will only call you when there's a big storm.
> 
> Try selling them on a seasonal contract which is like having snow insurance .
> 
> Unlimited plowing from November to April with the storm clause And of coarse salt is extra.
> 
> The sidewalk from the house to the garage is extra and so would the city sidewalk.
> do your best to avoid getting out of the truck think about hireing one or two guys that do nothing but sidewalks for you
> 
> Figure out what the average snowfall and the average snow events per year .
> To get your numbers.
> 
> And then if it doesn't snow and your profit margin will increase.
> 
> but that's just how I do residentials .
> 
> Good luck


Awesome! Thank you


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