# Do all resi accounts SUCK?



## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

I do well now it's 100% residential investment properties. They are all handled by various PMs. This season I picked up 2 private HO's and they ended up being a total PITA. Calling me off if they feel like shoveling on any rando storm, or complaining when I'm not there an hour after the snow is over. 

I was thinking about expanding service to private customers, but at this rate I am starting to shy away... My route is so damn tight, I cannot afford to be making last minute adjustments to the schedule because of the cheapness some people display. I lose business, and have turned others away because I was thinking that my route is as packed as it could be while still delivering great service.

Ive been thinking of having a NO BS contract written up that states " we will charge a plowing push every 3 inches regardless of whether the HO chooses to do the work themselves unless we fail to deliver within a specified allotted time. "

I know this sounds harsh, and that it will turn some people off, but I feel as though those are the very people I wouldn't want as customers anyway. I'm not afraid to be told to buzz off either. 

What do you guys think?


----------



## snopushin ford (Feb 20, 2010)

I know what your saying. I have a customer that has a plow on a tacoma and they try to do the driveway to save money. I had to talk to them and explain that their truck can not push the snow far enough back so on future storms it makes it hard on me and it limits room to put snow. They understood but I think if people think they can save money by doing somthing then they will try it. I think having it in the contract is a good idea. Matt


----------



## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

what is " residential investment properties" 
despite your title, does not sound like you do resis. doing HO is not resis that is commercial (according to my ins Co.)

but just as in life there are good people (customers)and bad people (customers) enjoy the good ones and forget the bad ones.


----------



## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

:yow!:


theplowmeister;1620100 said:


> what is " residential investment properties"
> despite your title, does not sound like you do resis. doing HO is not resis that is commercial (according to my ins Co.)
> 
> but just as in life there are good people (customers)and bad people (customers) enjoy the good ones and forget the bad ones.


Residential investment properties = buildings with non occupant owners who rent the buildings out to tenants for profit.

"resis" is a slang. Any account that you do for the sake of income would be considered commercial regardless of who lives in there or building type.

I'm not asking you for a definition of what I do, I'm asking about writing a contract for private owner occupied residences..

Yes I realize about the good and the bad, but I'm specifically asking about wording in a contract in order to keep my sanity in tact....


----------



## allagashpm (Sep 29, 2012)

You just have to filter them out, some suck, so don't waste your time. My residentials are also lawn customers so I know them all well and also which ones to avoid. I have one guy that bought a new snowblower this year. He thinks he can just call after the storm and say if its too much for his blower. If we agreed on plowing I'm plowing, I don't have time for that. You might need to reword your contract and that will weed some out you're right.


----------



## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

i understand the headaches/lost time/lost money if your route is spaced out over a great distance. example - you travel 10 miles to plow a driveway just to arrive to see the homeowner already took care of it. in that case then you should have a clause that you will charge as agreed upon regardless if it has already been done. 

but you say you have a tight route, so what is the problem if you show up and see it has already been done? i guess it depends on your defintion of tight. all 55 of my accounts are within a 5 mile radius of each other. i do every other house on some streets. so if i see a driveway has already been done, then i move to the next - no skin off my back, i was there anyway. if i plow, i charge, if its already done, i don't. in some instances i even hope that i show up and its already been done.

and to answer your question - no, all residentials do not suck. the ones that do you get rid of quick. its all i do and i have more buddies complaining about commercial work (property managers) after 1 storm than i do all season about my residentials.


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

It's a great game....I had one who wanted to blow it out on the weekends and have me service during the week.
I got blasted because apparently...Friday afternoon is the weekend (according to him) so I made Monday morning the weekend using the same standard .....just before I told him " I wish you the best with you're new contractor, this isn't a good fit for me."

I don't mind adjusting the schedule to accomodate people, but when I get spoken down to and unappreciated for doing it we're done.


----------



## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Mr.Markus;1620171 said:


> It's a great game....I had one who wanted to blow it out on the weekends and have me service during the week.
> I got blasted because apparently...Friday afternoon is the weekend (according to him) so I made Monday morning the weekend using the same standard .....just before I told him " I wish you the best with you're new contractor, this isn't a good fit for me."
> 
> I don't mind adjusting the schedule to accomodate people, but when I get spoken down to and unappreciated for doing it we're done.


I had a few the same way, but then call me on sunday morning because they did not want to deal with the foot of snow from saterday. Got rid of them real quick.


----------



## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

To answer your original question; most of the time, yes. If you can find some that are actually easy to do and have a, " You'll get there when you get there" attitude then they are okay, but they can be few and far between. 

I don't have that many residential, but I think for next year I'm going to weed out even more of them, I have another guy in mind I can refer them to who only does residential. 

I try to be upfront with them and tell them we typically plow driveways between 9 a.m. and noon on an overnight snowfall, which I think is VERY reasonable. I don't do the whole, "I leave for work at 6:30 so I have to be able to get out so it needs to be done by then" BS. (My thoughts if the snow is so deep you can't make it out of you're driveway, the roads are probably about impassible, so stay home) 

Anyways, I think the 9 a.m, to noon time frame is perfectly acceptable for a residential drive; but there are a lot of people who just won't go for it. They'll start calling ASAP wanting to know why no one has shown up yet, others will call saying you were there to early. Some will get so impatient they go shovel the whole driveway while they are "waiting" for you. Then, and this one is always my favorite, the neighbor across the street goes ahead and does it at 5 in the morning with his new snow blower or quad with a plow that he has been itching to use and thinks he's a hero for "helping out" the widowed neighbor.

FWIW I have heard of the whole "If I get there and it's already done I still get paid" clause before, and don't think it's necessarily a bad idea.

That was a lot of typing, but in conclusion, I think there is good money to be made clearing driveways, but you have to make them your priority. Trying to do them with a commercial route get to be too much.


----------



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

ducaticorse;1620102 said:


> :yow!:
> 
> "resis" is a slang. Any account that you do for the sake of income would be considered commercial regardless of who lives in there or building type.
> 
> I'm not asking you for a definition of what I do,


When you write something with a "word" that only you know the meaning and people will not know what you are writing. People can not answer when they do not speak "your" language.


----------



## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

32vld;1620252 said:


> When you write something with a "word" that only you know the meaning and people will not know what you are writing. People can not answer when they do not speak "your" language.


Thank you for pointing that out. Did you know what I meant? Because everyone else here but one didn't... Now what do you think of the question I asked?


----------



## scottydosnntkno (Jan 4, 2010)

32vld;1620252 said:


> When you write something with a "word" that only you know the meaning and people will not know what you are writing. People can not answer when they do not speak "your" language.


I knew what he meant along with everyone else here.

This is the commercial plowing forum, all plowing discussed here is "commercial"

As in the original context, or when talking about account types, one would infer:
Resis = houses/driveways
Commercial = parking lots/everything else

I thought it was perfectly clear


----------



## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

I gave up all my resi's last year. They weren't PITA's I just didn't make enough to justify doing them, all of the other customers I had were PITA's wanting something for nothing, wanted me to drop everything and plow/sand them at the last minute. Find elderly people who have no where to go during the storm, they will be fussy when you cleanup but you won't get 50 calls during the storm asking where you are.


----------



## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

While I'm a fan of the blower/tractor combo, my preference is running them in condo's. I do have about 70 resi's and they are as everyone else here describes. The commercial and condos are easy, but the home owners are a new breed lately. 
2" snows from 3-7am and they want to know why you didn't plow before 6am. "I shoveled my own sidewalk this time" wanting to know why they were charged the $5 sidewalk fee. I understand we didn't do it, but they are contracted for a plow and shovel, so they are billed for such. 
The stories go on and on. 
Looking at dropping shoveling, switching to prepay seasonal for all and a few other things.


----------



## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

blowerman;1620601 said:


> While I'm a fan of the blower/tractor combo, my preference is running them in condo's. I do have about 70 resi's and they are as everyone else here describes. The commercial and condos are easy, but the home owners are a new breed lately.
> 2" snows from 3-7am and they want to know why you didn't plow before 6am. "I shoveled my own sidewalk this time" wanting to know why they were charged the $5 sidewalk fee. I understand we didn't do it, but they are contracted for a plow and shovel, so they are billed for such.
> The stories go on and on.
> Looking at dropping shoveling, switching to prepay seasonal for all and a few other things.


Well, I am glad I am not imagining things here... Seasonal would definitely solve the problem of cheap customers, BUT I imagine around my parts pulling a seasonal contract on these people would be difficult at best unless it was dirt cheap.

I gave an apt complex a 15K seasonal this year, and they turned it down to roll the dice. They are now up around the $20K mark with me and wishing they had taken my offer. I know the rationale behind their decision was due solely on the lack of snow we got last year in these parts, maybe the amount we got this year will have a positive effect on the decision to go seasonal.

Someone stated earlier asking "what's the big deal if your route is tight and you have to skip a house because it's already done when you get there?". The big deal is that I don't get to put another customer in that account's place last minute because when I am full for the season, I turn everyone else away. It isn't fair to my business when I take the time to make sure that I don't overload my route in order to provide the best service I am able too. It is disrespectful to me, it costs me money, and it also limits my ability to take on new customers.

I think hard wording in the contract is the way to go here. Being blown off / called off last minute by customers infuriates me, and I'm not going to put up with that type of behavior.


----------



## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

jrs.landscaping;1620599 said:


> I gave up all my resi's last year. They weren't PITA's I just didn't make enough to justify doing them, all of the other customers I had were PITA's wanting something for nothing, wanted me to drop everything and plow/sand them at the last minute. Find elderly people who have no where to go during the storm, they will be fussy when you cleanup but you won't get 50 calls during the storm asking where you are.


Elderly ones I like no rush 
I had one call last storm asking me how soon I was going get to there driveway
I told them it was done 2 hrs ago. They look out side and was sorry for calling This wasn't a elderly person it was a young eye/hearing Doctor 
At one time I made good money with drives. Then my overhead was a lot smaller.
I still do them but my list gets smaller every year from people moving or kicking the bucket


----------



## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

ducaticorse;1620610 said:


> Well, I am glad I am not imagining things here... Seasonal would definitely solve the problem of cheap customers, BUT I imagine around my parts pulling a seasonal contract on these people would be difficult at best unless it was dirt cheap.
> 
> I gave an apt complex a 15K seasonal this year, and they turned it down to roll the dice. They are now up around the $20K mark with me and wishing they had taken my offer. I know the rationale behind their decision was due solely on the lack of snow we got last year in these parts, maybe the amount we got this year will have a positive effect on the decision to go seasonal.
> 
> ...


This is the problem I (me personally) have with seasonals

This has not been an overly heavy winter (I'm close to you) and you are already 5k heavy on your seasonal bid

I know in the long term its supposed to even out, but what if it doesnt?

I hate the thought of working for free even for 1 year

This is just my opinion and understand the philosophy of a good mix of seasonals/per inch/ per hour ratios

Had a new client offer me a seasonal option based on his past years but I chose to go with an hourly rate the first year to get a feel for the property (retail & resturant)

So far we are still shy of his offer

Im being fairly compensated and hes getting a bargain - win / win

I know I have this acct long term if I want it

I guess I'm not well enough versed in seasonals yet
Thats why I like this site - good info & insight


----------



## scottydosnntkno (Jan 4, 2010)

siteworkplus;1620692 said:


> This is the problem I (me personally) have with seasonals
> 
> This has not been an overly heavy winter (I'm close to you) and you are already 5k heavy on your seasonal bid
> 
> ...


That is the entire point of seasonals, is that they use the law of averages which is called that for a reason.

Take this year and last year. Last year you would have made money sitting at home doing nothing, which would have more than made up for the extra work you did this year. By me we went from 4 plowables last year to 14+ this year. Average is 12, so we're still ahead of the game if we did seasonal.

Now, should the events keep going up and up, or just stay above your seasonal price based on say 12 events, but next year you get 15 again, then increase your seasonal price by 1-2 events to compensate. Base your average for your seasonals off the last two years events.


----------



## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

ducaticorse;1620610 said:


> Being blown off / called off last minute by customers infuriates me, and I'm not going to put up with that type of behavior.


are you new to plowing? or just new to the residential side? this is part of the game. you simply weed those people out. put all the language in the contract that you want. people are still going to do this and when they do, are you going to take them to court over one push on a $50 driveway?

expect it, deal with it, move on. this doesn't mean you have to be happy with it and it doesn't make it right, but dont let it go so deep under your skin.


----------



## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

linckeil;1620722 said:


> are you new to plowing? or just new to the residential side? this is part of the game. you simply weed those people out. put all the language in the contract that you want. people are still going to do this and when they do, are you going to take them to court over one push on a $50 driveway?
> 
> expect it, deal with it, move on. this doesn't mean you have to be happy with it and it doesn't make it right, but dont let it go so deep under your skin.


New to residential. Ive been strictly commercial apps. And I'm thinking I'm going to stay that way after the only two residential customers I tried out this year LOL... J/K, sort of.. I'll give it a solid shot again next year with strong wording in my contracts and see how it goes...

As far as the seasonal for that property is concerned, I based it on certain triggers, and extra (not included) salt apps being at the sole discretion of the PM. He ended up handing the decision making over to me entirely, so the numbers I put up earlier are slightly skewed to be fair. I did base the seasonal number I gave him of an average 45 inch winter in our area though.


----------



## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

procut;1620188 said:


> *To answer your original question; most of the time, yes. If you can find some that are actually easy to do and have a, " You'll get there when you get there" attitude then they are okay, but they can be few and far between.
> 
> I don't have that many residential, but I think for next year I'm going to weed out even more of them, I have another guy in mind I can refer them to who only does residential.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree with the stay home part for most home owners that don't HAVE to be at work. On the other hand, if they are doctors or nurses working at a hospital, then they will need to get out. I took on 11 homes and 2 private roads, not driveways. Out of the 11 total, on one road, 5 of them are doctors out of 6 homes. The others are large corporate CEO's or just simply retired wealthy people. The 2 roads are my number one priority. They have to be able to come down some very steep areas on the road at any given time of day. If it's a emergency, I'll get up and go plow/salt to get them out if it's late or early. In any event, I'm there by 6am regardless if it's still snowing. They are on a per push agreement so it keeps multiplying. With that said, I make a killing on them all and have tightened my route to under 10 miles total round trip.


----------



## Bison (Dec 20, 2010)

I do 99% resi's and have for 30 years . You definitely need to be a bit thick skinned and not easily offended when dealing with the customers. Most questions or complaints come from ignorance of snowplowing . Most people if you are square and up front with them will be no problem whatsoever . I've had customers for over 20 years and I've never even met them in person, I plow , bill , get paid ....cool beans . I've also never been shy about weeding out the complainers and slow payers. Every year or two I'll replace a dud with a new customer. I do 39 drives this year by myself and only had one complaint , that's not too bad.


----------



## GVL LLC (Feb 24, 2013)

Bison are all your accounts in medway?


----------



## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Bison;1621903 said:


> I do 99% resi's and have for 30 years . You definitely need to be a bit thick skinned and not easily offended when dealing with the customers. Most questions or complaints come from ignorance of snowplowing . Most people if you are square and up front with them will be no problem whatsoever . I've had customers for over 20 years and I've never even met them in person, I plow , bill , get paid ....cool beans . I've also never been shy about weeding out the complainers and slow payers. Every year or two I'll replace a dud with a new customer. I do 39 drives this year by myself and only had one complaint , that's not too bad.


Very well said!


----------



## Bison (Dec 20, 2010)

> Bison are all your accounts in medway?


 Yeah all but 2 in Medway , and all but 5 on the same side of rte 109 which makes a huge difference for daytime plowing . Took alot of years to get the route to where it's about as tight as I can probably do and keep everyone reasonably happy.


----------



## rocks&blocks (Oct 30, 2012)

As mentioned earlier, I think how you write your contract can be all the difference. If you are upfront, informative, and educate your customers of what takes place, you will remove allot of headaches. And keep in mind, there will "always" be a few problematic customers. 

Also sometimes certain contracts just don't fit your business model, and its not in you're best interest to do them!


----------



## MSS Mow (Mar 19, 2006)

procut;1620188 said:


> I try to be upfront with them and tell them we typically plow driveways between 9 a.m. and noon on an overnight snowfall, which I think is VERY reasonable. I don't do the whole, "I leave for work at 6:30 so I have to be able to get out so it needs to be done by then" BS. (My thoughts if the snow is so deep you can't make it out of you're driveway, the roads are probably about impassible, so stay home)
> 
> Anyways, I think the 9 a.m, to noon time frame is perfectly acceptable for a residential drive; but there are a lot of people who just won't go for it. They'll start calling ASAP wanting to know why no one has shown up yet, others will call saying you were there to early. Some will get so impatient they go shovel the whole driveway while they are "waiting" for you. Then, and this one is always my favorite, the neighbor across the street goes ahead and does it at 5 in the morning with his new snow blower or quad with a plow that he has been itching to use and thinks he's a hero for "helping out" the widowed neighbor.


I disagree on this front. If we have an overnight storm, folks still have to get to work in the morning. The roads are plowed with the storm, so they are passable early in the morning. Telling the customer it may be noontime (or even 930am) before I get there is not acceptable. There could easily be a foot of snow in their driveway, which would be impassable for many people, but the road is passable for them. Most people still have to work even if it snows.

It is NOT "BS" that they need to be out by 630am. I do not think you are "VERY reasonable" as you state. Just my opinion of course. Thumbs Up

I do get the complaint on occasion that I was there "too early" but I just tell them that we plow with the storm and that if they want to be out for work on time, I have to come early. Not everyone can be done from 6:00 to 7:00am. Most understand and are fine with it.


----------



## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

ducaticorse;1620084 said:


> I do well now it's 100% residential investment properties. They are all handled by various PMs. This season I picked up 2 private HO's and they ended up being a total PITA. Calling me off if they feel like shoveling on any rando storm, or complaining when I'm not there an hour after the snow is over.
> 
> I was thinking about expanding service to private customers, but at this rate I am starting to shy away... My route is so damn tight, I cannot afford to be making last minute adjustments to the schedule because of the cheapness some people display. I lose business, and have turned others away because I was thinking that my route is as packed as it could be while still delivering great service.
> 
> ...


you could do that. it's your business. I personally wouldn't do that.

I do 99% residential snow removal. all private home owners. if someone cancels before I start my route I either get the route done sooner or have some extra time to either spend on who I do have or flag downs.

the only thing I do have set up is a fuel charge if I show up and it's already done.

I guess it also depends on how much you need the money from snow removal. for me snow removal is all gravy, icing on the cake. I make the money I need in the spring, summer and fall. I could forget snow removal all together. I do it because I like it, it gives me something to do and it's extra cash. I don't view those who cancel from time to time as a loss.


----------



## CAT 245ME (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't mind resi's at all, it's all in how you plan it. I have 40 drive's and one church yard. I find for me that having a good number of clients that are retired and don't have to be out at a certain time is a big help. 

I use to have 60 drives that mostly where retired customers , but over time that number has shrunk do to some clients passing away, going into care home's and etc, and those homes where sold to younger working people that naturally need to be out early as well as in at night.

With the increase in plow trucks the last few years, it's difficult to build a tight route, there are some streets that I see that have lets say five homes being plowed and all are being done by some one different. But if you can can get them close together, it can be very profitable.


----------



## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

I only accept "week-enders" now. Basically camps and second homes. Gives me time to do the commercial stuff and the few "Have to be plowed by X" driveways..I do the weekenders more or less at my leisure. I am fortunate that I live within a 10 minute drive of several hundred camps and second homes..
I have one account who will expect me to pass his place for any storms under 4", then he packs it in solid where he drives in and out, it turns to pure ice, then we get 6" or more and He expects me to plow the whole mess for the per storm rate..He is getting dropped.


----------



## GVL LLC (Feb 24, 2013)

I know what you mean bison about a tight route around that area. 109 is painful to drive on sometimes because of all the lights and traffic in the morning/afternoon. I cant wait to have a tight route like that since this is only my second year. It sure would save alot of time and gas. Sorry to hijack the thread alittle :waving:


----------



## GVL LLC (Feb 24, 2013)

I also agree that all of my working customers could not deal with having your driveway done by 10 am-12 pm. Most my customers have cars that would bottom out in 6 inches of snow trying to get out of their driveway to go to work and in my experience most people dont call out of work for snow. Hell if this winter people called out that much they would be fired. I make sure everyones done by 6:30 a.m.


----------



## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

you guys saying that a driveway will be done by 9am, or 12 noon, 6:30am, or whatever are kidding right??? 

mother nature doesn't promise anyone a time that the snow will stop, so how can you gaurentee your customers that you will have them plowed out by a certain time?? mother nature is also known for dropping snow at a rate of 4-5 inches per hour at times, so how can you ever gaurentee a driveway will be passable at a certain point in time?

i tell my customers i have a route that takes me 6-7 hours to perform. i make it clear to them they will be serviced within 6-7 hours after a typical snowfall under 8 inches (anything more than that will take longer). i work the route 1 way for one storm, then run it backward for the next - this way the guy who got serviced first during one storm, will be last the next (and vis versa).

if the snow stops at 5am and you promise all your custoemrs a clear drive by 6am, then you have just hurt yourself if you have more then a handful of driveways.


----------



## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

linckeil;1622981 said:


> you guys saying that a driveway will be done by 9am, or 12 noon, 6:30am, or whatever are kidding right???
> 
> pmother nature doesn't promise anyone a time that the snow will stop, so how can you gaurentee your customers that you will have them plowed out by a certain time?? mother nature is also known for dropping snow at a rate of 4-5 inches per hour at times, so how can you ever gaurentee a driveway will be passable at a certain point in time?
> 
> ...


Good comment and those are excellent sentiments to pass on to your clients.


----------



## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

linckeil;1622981 said:


> you guys saying that a driveway will be done by 9am, or 12 noon, 6:30am, or whatever are kidding right???
> 
> mother nature doesn't promise anyone a time that the snow will stop, so how can you gaurentee your customers that you will have them plowed out by a certain time?? mother nature is also known for dropping snow at a rate of 4-5 inches per hour at times, so how can you ever gaurentee a driveway will be passable at a certain point in time?
> 
> ...


it's an excellent point.

what I do though is tell them the times are relative to when the snow stops. an overnight storm that lets up between midnight and 2 am will still get me to those accounts that have to be done between 6 and 8.

you also run into those that will pay whatever amount whenever just to have there drive cleared by a certain time. they don't care if there's only half an inch down and you have to come back later to do it again. as long as its plowed and clean when they they leave for work.


----------



## GVL LLC (Feb 24, 2013)

Ok let me clarify the way I do it because your points are valid and I completely understand what your saying. 
The way i do it is that if there is an overnight storm I will hit every property at least once before 6:30 am to ensure that when the customer leaves the driveway that there is at most a few inches when it is time for them to go to work. Some of my customers dont need to leave until 8 or 9 so they got done last. Then I make sure all the drives have been plowed before they come home from work. Then if the storm stops at night then I go back to clean up so that the driveway is clear the next morning.


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

To answer your question, no not all residential clients SUCK. I would like to say most do not.
When I refer to residential, I mean private single dwelling homes. Not HOA
Lets start with the 7am service guarantee. Our trigger is 2 inches, and it takes us 4 hrs to cycle through our route. We only guarantee 7am service if our trigger is met by 3am. Every hour that our trigger is delayed beyond 3 am adds to the guaranteed time of service. To be honest its not the 2 or 4 inches of snow that keeps people blocked in their drives, its the windrow left by the muni plow. We will follow the muni plow and remove those windrows ASAP, no windrow means very little calls. 
Now lets tackle the CONTRACT. When you have a signed contract to service a client at a specific trigger, how is it fair for them to shovel their drives and not pay you when the trigger is met. You either have a contract for a determined trigger or you do not. 
Now if they are a on call type of client without a service agreement, well that's another story. These types of clients have no contracts and call only when they feel the need to be serviced. These types of clients will end up paying much more for a service call, and there is no guaranteed time of service. We will get to them when we have the time, which in most cases is after all our contracted clients have been serviced.
I want to touch on the seasonal price once again. All our 3400 resi clients are on a seasonal contract. One price for the season, prepay, for unlimited snow blowing. Imagine having to track all those clients, billing them per push. Then add in the ones that shoveled who do not want to pay, or the others that argue you plowed when they felt the trigger was not met, or charged to many pushes for the same event. Now send out 3400 invoices every month, and handle those 3,000 payments every month. Did you notice there were 400 payments missing, those are the ones you need to contact or resend a new invoice, or stop service because they canceled the contract.  
Now my views on seasonal verses per push. I have 25 agricultural tractors with inverted snow blowers, plated and insured, with paid operators at the ready to service our contracted clients.
How is it fair that the client who has signed a contract with you, thus making you responsible to service their homes in a timely matter not have to pay anything if there is no snow. 
How is it fair being a responsible contractor you are now obliged to be ready, with the proper equipment and personnel to go out and service these clients every time the service trigger is met, and yet not get paid if there are no plow able events. 
It costs us $250,000.00 just having this equipment ready to service these clients. Then add on another $175,000.00 for the operators to be ready at a moments notice to go out and work.
A per push business plan would not make much sense, I am pretty sure if I were to go to the bank to get a loan I would be turned away. Instead we charge a flat seasonal rate of $300 per home, to ensure we can service our clients in a timely manner based on the legally bound contract we signed with them. 
I know per push is how many people work, I just don't get how you cannot get any money if there is no snow. I would understand if it was on call work, without contracts. But as soon as you have a signed contract to perform a certain service, you now have fix costs. It makes no sense to me, that you become legally bound to preform a service but not get paid anything if no service is preformed. This is just my opinion, and I know many of you feel differently about this, and I agree to disagree.


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

No, not all resi's suck. They just hire your expecting the world, meanwhile to the typical snow contractor a $30-$80 driveway is such a minuscule, nothing amount of money, their problems hardly seem worth anyones time to deal with. Then the frustration sets in... Most commercial guys who still do driveways, will be on a $50,000 lot and then get a call complaining about not getting close enough to a garage door on a $30 driveway. At that point, I can understand the frustration. However, if we are talking about a "residential only" type of guy, then it more sounds like the customers expectations are not properly being managed. 

However, I will go as far as to say that ALL condominium associations that I have ever dealt with have been the worst in every way... "How far do you push a customer that thinks they know your job?"


----------



## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

GVL LLC;1623080 said:


> Ok let me clarify the way I do it because your points are valid and I completely understand what your saying.
> The way i do it is that if there is an overnight storm I will hit every property at least once before 6:30 am to ensure that when the customer leaves the driveway that there is at most a few inches when it is time for them to go to work. Some of my customers dont need to leave until 8 or 9 so they got done last. Then I make sure all the drives have been plowed before they come home from work. Then if the storm stops at night then I go back to clean up so that the driveway is clear the next morning.


it depends on the amount of inches and when the storm comes. regardless of those 2 issues I'm lucky enough to only have a few clients that have specific times they want/need to be serviced. the rest are on an as I get there basis.

on an overnight storm I start with my commercial lot once we have 2 inches. if that's all we are getting I then move to the ones who have to go to work. after that I just work my way around town. if say 4 inches are coming. the commercial gets done at 2 then I go home. the. go back after the last 2 are down and then do my residential route.

the only time residentials get more than 1 visit is when we get 5 inches or more. otherwise no one gets done until its done snowing.

that's my set up right now with the clients I have right now.


----------



## cpmi (Dec 18, 2010)

Neige;1623119 said:


> To answer your question, no not all residential clients SUCK. I would like to say most do not.
> When I refer to residential, I mean private single dwelling homes. Not HOA
> Lets start with the 7am service guarantee. Our trigger is 2 inches, and it takes us 4 hrs to cycle through our route. We only guarantee 7am service if our trigger is met by 3am. Every hour that our trigger is delayed beyond 3 am adds to the guaranteed time of service. To be honest its not the 2 or 4 inches of snow that keeps people blocked in their drives, its the windrow left by the muni plow. We will follow the muni plow and remove those windrows ASAP, no windrow means very little calls.
> Now lets tackle the CONTRACT. When you have a signed contract to service a client at a specific trigger, how is it fair for them to shovel their drives and not pay you when the trigger is met. You either have a contract for a determined trigger or you do not.
> ...


This^^ is an excellent post with lots of great insight. As mentioned I know there are pro's/con's to per push/seasonal but I couldn't agree more with the above thinking. There are also pro's/con's to residential account's-biggest thing is make sure the customer's expectations are the same as what you plan on delivering;and as mentioned above that they are clearly spelled out in your contract. Deliver what you promise and what is spelled out in the contract then there is no problems. As far as the job being done when you show up-that just doesn't fly with me at all but I understand everyone's different also.


----------



## GVL LLC (Feb 24, 2013)

that makes sense. yes i was refering to decent sized storms over 5 inches. The ones where its snowing 1-2 inch per hr. The small storms just get done once and there usually isnt any problems.


----------



## CAT 245ME (Sep 10, 2006)

I really admire Neige's operation. 

I like that Paul pay's his operators for the season unlike other company's that expect there operators to be ready to go 24/7 but only will pay them for when there is an event. To me as an operator, it means a lot to have a company that is willing to make a commitment like this to an employee and it also says a lot about the company.


----------



## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

GVL LLC;1623147 said:


> that makes sense. yes i was refering to decent sized storms over 5 inches. The ones where its snowing 1-2 inch per hr. The small storms just get done once and there usually isnt any problems.


i don't normally see snow storms over 4 inches but when i do there's usually at least 2 visits depending on how many inches and it's more of a everyone gets done when i get there type of thing. except for the commercial lot i do. they of course take first priority. after that its as soon as i can get there but no promise on any time whatsoever.

we just had an 11 inch storm a week or so ago. haven't had snow like for a long time. never in my career of snow plowing and i've been plowing for 7 years now. most are usually patient in a situation like that.


----------



## MSS Mow (Mar 19, 2006)

linckeil;1622981 said:


> you guys saying that a driveway will be done by 9am, or 12 noon, 6:30am, or whatever are kidding right???
> 
> mother nature doesn't promise anyone a time that the snow will stop, so how can you gaurentee your customers that you will have them plowed out by a certain time?? mother nature is also known for dropping snow at a rate of 4-5 inches per hour at times, so how can you ever gaurentee a driveway will be passable at a certain point in time?
> 
> ...


Nobody can guarantee it, you're right. However, if it's still snowing, you can keep their driveway passable by a certain time. If you can't, then you have too many customers. If you're getting an unusual storm of 4"+ an hour, then you better have backup. It's all about doing what you say you're going to do. If a customer has to be out by a certain time, then you damn well better have them out. That doesn't mean their driveway is bare of all snow, it means it is passable for what they drive for a vehicle. I've got 40+ driveways along with a dozen commercial accounts and the majority have to be done by 7am, a few earlier, a few later. I have two trucks and we never have a problem with it. If timing is going to be an issue, I have several backup sources that will step in and help for a couple hours. It's how you stay in business - doing what you say you're going to do.


----------



## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

yeah on the larger snows it is all about making the driveways passable, not necessarily snow free. 

when your getting 11 inches clients are pleased if all they have to contend with when pulling out of there driveway is 4 inches or less. 

when we got that 11 inch snow storm the other week my first pass was just driveways. I didn't do any sidewalks or steps until the second pass.


----------



## MSS Mow (Mar 19, 2006)

yardguy28;1623611 said:


> yeah on the larger snows it is all about making the driveways passable, not necessarily snow free.
> 
> when your getting 11 inches clients are pleased if all they have to contend with when pulling out of there driveway is 4 inches or less.
> 
> when we got that 11 inch snow storm the other week my first pass was just driveways. I didn't do any sidewalks or steps until the second pass.


Exactly!! Thumbs Up


----------



## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

MSS Mow;1623599 said:


> Nobody can guarantee it, you're right. However, if it's still snowing, you can keep their driveway passable by a certain time. If you can't, then you have too many customers. If you're getting an unusual storm of 4"+ an hour, then you better have backup. It's all about doing what you say you're going to do. If a customer has to be out by a certain time, then you damn well better have them out. That doesn't mean their driveway is bare of all snow, it means it is passable for what they drive for a vehicle. I've got 40+ driveways along with a dozen commercial accounts and the majority have to be done by 7am, a few earlier, a few later. I have two trucks and we never have a problem with it. If timing is going to be an issue, I have several backup sources that will step in and help for a couple hours. It's how you stay in business - doing what you say you're going to do.


this is exactly why i tell them they're driveway will be taken of within 6-7 hours after the last flake falls for a typical (under 8 inch storm). and i do exactly what i say i do. i don't make any other promises, i dont tell them their drive will be passable by 6 am no matter what. you want to run your operation like that than thats up to you. i've been doing 100% residentials for 17 years and make myself very clear with all 50 of my customers - more than half of which i have had for 10 plus years.

so you have 12 commercial and 40 residentials - all of which need to be done by 7am. a storm has been going since 5am with snowfall rates of 4" per hour and continues through 10am. you and one other truck are going to be sure ALL accounts are passable by 7am - yeah right!!!! call up your buddies on backup - i'm sure they won't be busy!!!! they'd love to drive their trucks around in whiteout conditions to help you honor 52 foolish commitments!!

if you have to commit that to your customers to get the work, then find new customers. if you are voluntarily putting yourself in that position then thats a whole other ball of wax... i do what i gotta do to keep my customers happy - and have been doing so for 17 years. the countless referrals i get from those customers is proof, but i would never sign up to unreasonable time tables.

thanks for the tip on how to stay in business. i figured promising things and not delivering was the best way to run any operation? :laughing: ok, so you can now step down from the soap box.


----------



## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

I can't speak for anyone else but I can promise a certain number of clients each winter I will have there driveway at least passable by a certain in normal circumstances. 

I don't overload my route to where I can't keep that promise. I have 20 residential accounts and one commercial lot. been doing all of the 20 now for 7 years.


----------



## MSS Mow (Mar 19, 2006)

linckeil;1623740 said:


> this is exactly why i tell them they're driveway will be taken of within 6-7 hours after the last flake falls for a typical (under 8 inch storm). and i do exactly what i say i do. i don't make any other promises, i dont tell them their drive will be passable by 6 am no matter what. you want to run your operation like that than thats up to you. i've been doing 100% residentials for 17 years and make myself very clear with all 50 of my customers - more than half of which i have had for 10 plus years.
> 
> so you have 12 commercial and 40 residentials - all of which need to be done by 7am. a storm has been going since 5am with snowfall rates of 4" per hour and continues through 10am. you and one other truck are going to be sure ALL accounts are passable by 7am - yeah right!!!! call up your buddies on backup - i'm sure they won't be busy!!!! they'd love to drive their trucks around in whiteout conditions to help you honor 52 foolish commitments!!
> 
> ...


Not all accounts have to be AT 7am. Some are 4am, some 5am, some 6 am, and so forth. So the 4am, 5am and 6am accounts would not have to be done by 7, as they are already out for work. That leaves a much smaller list to do. So, with my trucks and the back up trucks, I don't have a problem keeping my promises. I have back ups that do not currently plow snow commercially so they are available at any time, so no, they are not busy. I offer a service that customer need and they need it by a certain time, regardless of conditions. Excuses don't cut it with some customers. I would not be in business and neither would anyone else in my area if I couldn't promise time specific service. If what you're doing works for you, then great. I was just saying it wouldn't work in my area. And If I'm not mistaken, you hauled out the soap box.


----------



## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

exactly. 

some of my clients have a certain they need to be done before work and those times are all different. it's not like they all want to be done at the same time. some are earlier, others are later. 

for me personally not every client has to be out by a certain time either. I have a lot of seniors where they are fine with whenever I get there. 

the whole point some people hire someone to remove snow is so they don't have to drive in it when they pull out of there garage. so if you can't honor a certain time how are you gonna get business. those people won't settle for 6-7 hours after the storm. they won't it out of there driveway before they pull out of the garage. 

I've seen people shovel nothing else but 2 tracks down there driveway for the tires to go. forget the sidewalks and steps at the front door.


----------



## GVL LLC (Feb 24, 2013)

exactly I mean most of my customers drive smaller/medium sized 2wd sedans and definately cant drive through a 10 inch apron at the end of their driveway on a 5 inch storm so thats why it is very important for their driveway to be clear before work and when they get home. If you set up your route right there shouldnt be a problem. Like others said some need to be out at 5 some need to be out at 8 so you just work accordingly and imho that is the best way to business in this industry. Its not very often your getting 4 inches an hour and if thats the case most people arent going to work or if someone had to then id have them contact me so that im aware. customer service is the name of the game


----------



## Greenstar lawn (Jan 18, 2009)

I love my residentials. All of them I also do there lawns. They all know that I don't get to them until after all my commercial lots are done which is 6-8 hrs after the storm. I'll get a call here and there but not much I can do about it.


----------



## milkie62 (Sep 1, 2003)

I am 100 % residential broken down as 50 in a townhouse development and 15 regular driveways.And I use snowblowers exclusively.It is me and my son.We pull into the parking lot and unload.He goes one direction and I go the other.We do all driveways that are not shoveled out.It does not bother me if a customer has already shoveled since I refuse to have contracts telling someone that they cannot maintain their own property if they want.I have been doing these drives for approx 20 yrs so my system must be working.To each his own I guess.This is only part-time for me and used as my toy money.

1-933 cub cadet
2-1332 ariens
1-30" ariens pro


----------

