# What to charge for 3 McDonald's Properties



## pinnaclesnow

This is my first thread and I am looking for some advice on a commercial property bid I have. I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada and I have been approached to bid on three McDonald's Properties all within close range of each other. I do not have the square footage of them but I have over head pics of all the properties. I am wondering what I should charge per push for each property and what a monthly contract price would be in general. I have already put a bid in and the owner came back saying it was way higher then the other bid. he gave me the price for the other bid and I can not even come close, never mind even making a profit, am I way off or is this other company going to be losing money this winter. I will tell the prices later on because I don't want the prices I give to affect what people have to say. The going rate per hour is $85/hr to $120/hr. I was coming in low at $90 because there is potential for landscaping in the summer so I really want the contract. any advice would be a big help.


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## grandview

I'd do it for a couple of happy meals


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## Matson Snow

grandview;1315730 said:


> I'd do it for a couple of happy meals


1"- 3"........#1 Large Size with a Coke.....

4"- 6"........# 2 Super Size with a Coke and an Apple Pie....

7"- 12"......#1 and #2 Super size with a Coke, Apple Pie and a 10 pc. Mcnugget....

I think these prices are in line with the times.....payup....:salute:


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## pinnaclesnow

Unfortunately I am trying to stay away from the happy meals so thats not going to cut it for me....Trying to watch my figure.


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## pinnaclesnow

I still prefer cash  ..... Does anyone have any real suggestions??


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## cretebaby

pinnaclesnow;1315766 said:


> I still prefer cash  ..... Does anyone have any real suggestions??


Are these corporate or franchise?


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## WIPensFan

Post the price already, I'm dying to know how little it's going for.


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## JDiepstra

pinnaclesnow;1315715 said:


> he gave me the price for the other bid and I can not even come close, never mind even making a profit, am I way off or is this other company going to be losing money this winter. I will tell the prices later on because I don't want the prices I give to affect what people have to say. The going rate per hour is $85/hr to $120/hr. I was coming in low at $90 because there is potential for landscaping in the summer so I really want the contract. any advice would be a big help.





pinnaclesnow;1315766 said:


> I still prefer cash  ..... Does anyone have any real suggestions??


It seems like you already answered the question for yourself. You can not do the job and make money. Don't do it. So there is potential for landscaping in the Summer..... big deal. They will probably get that at a price where no money can be made either. I'd walk away.


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## pinnaclesnow

WIPensFan;1315778 said:


> Post the price already, I'm dying to know how little it's going for.


well the price they were quoted was $3050/month unlimited removal for all three, the best I would do is double that with a clause saying max of 6 visits/month. Am I far off?


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## Matson Snow

cretebaby;1315768 said:


> Are these corporate or franchise?


Seems Not to matter.....Mcdonalds = Cheap...Minimal Service....No Salt....


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## Matson Snow

pinnaclesnow;1315794 said:


> well the price they were quoted was $3050/month unlimited removal for all three, the best I would do is double that with a clause saying max of 6 visits/month. Am I far off?


So, its a $1000 a month per store..Unlimited Plows am i correct????.....How much Snow do you guys get up there????


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## pinnaclesnow

JDiepstra;1315787 said:


> It seems like you already answered the question for yourself. You can not do the job and make money. Don't do it. So there is potential for landscaping in the Summer..... big deal. They will probably get that at a price where no money can be made either. I'd walk away.


Well the thing is I am very new to this all, I have been landscaping for a while and only did a few commercial snow removal lots last year for extra cash and to keep an employee busy over the winter, now i'm in it full time for the winter and I have never done a job like this before. The owner needs snow removed once three inches has fallen and might need to be done during the day and again at night on some cases. And for the landscaping it will be a three year project and it is for all three properties along with maintenance, and the owner also needs his 1/2 acre residential torn out and redone. so it would be nice to get the landscaping jobs.


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## grandview

pinnaclesnow;1315806 said:


> Well the thing is I am very new to this all, I have been landscaping for a while and only did a few commercial snow removal lots last year for extra cash and to keep an employee busy over the winter, now i'm in it full time for the winter and I have never done a job like this before. The owner needs snow removed once three inches has fallen and might need to be done during the day and again at night on some cases. And for the landscaping it will be a three year project and it is for all three properties along with maintenance, and the owner also needs his 1/2 acre residential torn out and redone. so it would be nice to get the landscaping jobs.


Why do you want to subsidize one season with another?


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## JDiepstra

pinnaclesnow;1315794 said:


> well the price they were quoted was $3050/month unlimited removal for all three, the best I would do is double that with a clause saying max of 6 visits/month. Am I far off?





Matson Snow;1315802 said:


> So, its a $1000 a month per store..Unlimited Plows am i correct????.....How much Snow do you guys get up there????


Seems like you answered part of your own question Matson Snow.


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## pinnaclesnow

Matson Snow;1315802 said:


> So, its a $1000 a month per store..Unlimited Plows am i correct????.....How much Snow do you guys get up there????


Ya, basically $1000/month per store...unlimited. snowfall varies greatly, last year we had close to record snow fall with 35 inches in January alone. normal year I would say we get anyway from 4-7 days per month where snow would have to be plowed, but we have crazy weather up here and some years doesn't snow until christmas, others early october. it has even snowed in August before.



Matson Snow;1315799 said:


> Seems Not to matter.....Mcdonalds = Cheap...Minimal Service....No Salt....


Definitely needs salt, service is important, big liability risk cause they are so busy.


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## JDiepstra

pinnaclesnow;1315806 said:


> Well the thing is I am very new to this all, I have been landscaping for a while and only did a few commercial snow removal lots last year for extra cash and to keep an employee busy over the winter, now i'm in it full time for the winter and I have never done a job like this before. The owner needs snow removed once three inches has fallen and might need to be done during the day and again at night on some cases. And for the landscaping it will be a three year project and it is for all three properties along with maintenance, and the owner also needs his 1/2 acre residential torn out and redone. so it would be nice to get the landscaping jobs.


I am sure the prospect these landscaping jobs is tempting but I would not do work at a loss in hopes of getting some other work. There is no promise you will get those jobs or that they will even happen. People often have big ideas but don't always follow through with them.


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## cretebaby

For how many months?


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## pinnaclesnow

grandview;1315810 said:


> What do you want to subsidize one season with another?


Not necessarily, im just figuring if I can lock up the snow contracts, gives me much better chance at getting landscaping jobs.


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## pinnaclesnow

cretebaby;1315817 said:


> For how many months?


5



JDiepstra;1315816 said:


> I am sure the prospect these landscaping jobs is tempting but I would not do work at a loss in hopes of getting some other work. There is no promise you will get those jobs or that they will even happen. People often have big ideas but don't always follow through with them.


very true, Im just unsure if I am over estimating the time to complete the snow removal jobs, maybe thats where I'm over, but I really don't think so.

11 hrs to complete all three, plus drive time and load/unload time. is that far off??


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## Matson Snow

pinnaclesnow;1315815 said:


> Ya, basically $1000/month per store...unlimited. snowfall varies greatly, last year we had close to record snow fall with 35 inches in January alone. normal year I would say we get anyway from 4-7 days per month where snow would have to be plowed, but we have crazy weather up here and some years doesn't snow until christmas, others early october. it has even snowed in August before.
> 
> So, Say you plow them 7 Times a Month on Average...Those lots look like an Hour plow to be safe....Thats $142 a Push....
> 
> Definitely needs salt, service is important, big liability risk cause they are so busy.


Needing Salt and Them willing to pay for Salt are Very Different things....


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## Matson Snow

pinnaclesnow;1315822 said:


> 5
> 
> very true, Im just unsure if I am over estimating the time to complete the snow removal jobs, maybe thats where I'm over, but I really don't think so.
> 
> *11 hrs to complete all three*, plus drive time and load/unload time. is that far off??


Am i missing somthing??...11 hours to plow all Three...What are you using and how far apart are these???

They all look like an hour per push.....Based on that and an average of 7 pushes per month that comes to $142 a Push based on a $1000 per month per store....


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## pinnaclesnow

Any suggestions on hours to complete job based on pics? just plowing, no salting or drive time.


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## pinnaclesnow

Matson Snow;1315830 said:


> Am i missing somthing??...11 hours to plow all Three...What are you using and how far apart are these???
> 
> They all look like an hour per push.....Based on that and an average of 7 pushes per month that comes to $142 a Push based on a $1000 per month per store....


You tell me, am I far off?? remember I will possible be dealing with traffic cause they are all open 24/7, and this customer wants priority service,, basically ass soon as the trigger point is reached im out there plowing so I might have a few extra hours but its covers the priority plowing service.

johne deere 320d- snow pusher 8ft


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## WIPensFan

Pinnacle, No offense, but I don't think this is the right situation for you. It might be ok if you were going to make some money on these, but I doubt you will. Like others have said, just because you do the plowing will not mean you will get the landscaping work. I also think the plowing will take some time because of the open 24/7 deal, but not 11 Hrs. Maybe more like 4-6 Hrs.


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## erkoehler

11 hours for three mcdonlalds! Wow!

Maybe that long with a snow blower.


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## blk90s13

grandview;1315730 said:


> I'd do it for a couple of happy meals


You are low baller of the century Thumbs Up


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## erkoehler

blk90s13;1315918 said:


> You are low baller of the century Thumbs Up


He just wants the toy!


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## Spucel

Matson Snow;1315739 said:


> 1"- 3"........#1 Large Size with a Coke.....
> 
> 4"- 6"........# 2 Super Size with a Coke and an Apple Pie....
> 
> 7"- 12"......#1 and #2 Super size with a Coke, Apple Pie and a 10 pc. Mcnugget....
> 
> I think these prices are in line with the times.....payup....:salute:


I want a toy if we have to salt!!

11 hours is wayyyyy off.


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## thelettuceman

I would do it if you can get the landscaping contract signed at the price you want. If he / she is not willing to sign the landscaping contract ( with deposit ), politely say no and walk away.


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## Matson Snow

thelettuceman;1316459 said:


> I would do it if you can get the landscaping contract signed at the price you want. If he / she is not willing to sign the landscaping contract ( with deposit ), politely say no and walk away.


So, you are say you would take on the Snow Removal at a Loss....Possible a Big Loss...Just to land the Landscape contract...Why in the world would you use Snow Removal at a Loss Leader????....

If you looked at these accounts( The 3 Mcdonalds) the Potential to make more money is in the Snow than the Lawn...

No offence to the OP.....But, I don't think you are ready Equipment and Experience wise to service these accounts Proper...


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## cet

Those place's are all small. 1 hour tops per site. The hard part will be daytime plowing in a skid. The vision isn't that good.

In those lots I bet a skid will out plow a truck. Are you going to drive the skid from site to site?

$15,000 for those sites without salt would be good money here.


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## pinnaclesnow

cet;1316567 said:


> Those place's are all small. 1 hour tops per site. The hard part will be daytime plowing in a skid. The vision isn't that good.
> 
> In those lots I bet a skid will out plow a truck. Are you going to drive the skid from site to site?
> 
> $15,000 for those sites without salt would be good money here.


Thanks for the input, I will have to load up after every lot and drive to the next one.



Matson Snow;1316544 said:


> So, you are say you would take on the Snow Removal at a Loss....Possible a Big Loss...Just to land the Landscape contract...Why in the world would you use Snow Removal at a Loss Leader????....
> 
> If you looked at these accounts( The 3 Mcdonalds) the Potential to make more money is in the Snow than the Lawn...
> 
> No offence to the OP.....But, I don't think you are ready Equipment and Experience wise to service these accounts Proper...


Definitely will not be doing the work at a loss, I definitely have the equipment to get the job done,(john deere 320d, kage innovation 8ft pusher/plow combo/ hitch mounted spreader) experience is the problem but i need to get the experience somewhere. mostly having trouble estimating time to complete the job.


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## grandview

I never worry about plowing in a lot that's open during the day. Never had any problems with gas stations or fast food places.


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## JD Dave

cet;1316567 said:


> Those place's are all small. 1 hour tops per site. The hard part will be daytime plowing in a skid. The vision isn't that good.
> 
> In those lots I bet a skid will out plow a truck. Are you going to drive the skid from site to site?
> 
> $15,000 for those sites without salt would be good money here.


I agree the price sounds reasonable. I'm actually really surprised it wasn't half that price. Pick up a couple industrial commercial places and you have a nice route for a truck.


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## Wayne Volz

*Maybe this will help you bidding*

Snow & Ice Management Bidding Package Includes:

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Go to www.profitsareus.com or call us at 800-845-0499 to order. Feel free to call us with any questions you might have as well. Being a full-service lawn & landscaping business myself since 1979, I know what a contractor is looking for; something simple, accurate and professional. This package is it.


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## grnstripes

11hrs!!!
i agree with the 1 hr per site 
on off loading takes what 5 min each


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## pinnaclesnow

grnstripes;1317979 said:


> 11hrs!!!
> i agree with the 1 hr per site
> on off loading takes what 5 min each


1 hr even for the biggest site?(smallest pic is the biggest site) it goes from the McDonald's all the way to the next building. Snow will be piled against the far building opposite of the McD's


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## pinnaclesnow

Thanks for the help everyone, I put in a quote and should hear back sometime this week. I will keep everyone posted on the final price and if I get the job.


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## sluggish

I do a few mcdonalds here in calgary and it takes about 1.25-1.5 hrs each one. I use the same machine you have with an 84" bucket. I know i am a bit late on the response but some info for you anyway. Hope you get the job.


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## buckwheat_la

I agree with JD and CET, even at 1.5 hrs a place with 3 places, and 7 events a month average, you are getting a $100/hour for your equipment, and being honest with this pinnacle, in our market here, that is decent money, where I am at, we plan on $75/hour for a skid


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## buckwheat_la

sluggish;1318381 said:


> I do a few mcdonalds here in calgary and it takes about 1.25-1.5 hrs each one. I use the same machine you have with an 84" bucket. I know i am a bit late on the response but some info for you anyway. Hope you get the job.


hey sluggish, welcome to plowsite, nice to see more Albertans on here


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## buckwheat_la

buckwheat_la;1318451 said:


> hey sluggish, welcome to plowsite, nice to see more Albertans on here


And yes, I am sure we are about to see another Al Bertan wise crack coming up, lol


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## WIPensFan

buckwheat_la;1318450 said:


> I agree with JD and CET, even at 1.5 hrs a place with 3 places, and 7 events a month average, you are getting a $100/hour for your equipment, and being honest with this pinnacle, in our market here, that is decent money, where I am at, we plan on $75/hour for a skid


When you say 7 events are you considering how many times he will plow per event. I don't think the trigger amount was ever mentioned but I would assume it to be 2-3". The price mentioned was unlimited plowing, that could get pretty high depending on the trigger.

I would think you would plow each place at least twice for every event.


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## buckwheat_la

pinnaclesnow;1315815 said:


> Ya, basically $1000/month per store...unlimited. snowfall varies greatly, last year we had close to record snow fall with 35 inches in January alone. normal year I would say we get anyway from 4-7 days per month where snow would have to be plowed, but we have crazy weather up here and some years doesn't snow until christmas, others early october. it has even snowed in August before.
> 
> Definitely needs salt, service is important, big liability risk cause they are so busy.





WIPensFan;1318458 said:


> When you say 7 events are you considering how many times he will plow per event. I don't think the trigger amount was ever mentioned but I would assume it to be 2-3". The price mentioned was unlimited plowing, that could get pretty high depending on the trigger.
> 
> I would think you would plow each place at least twice for every event.


I am going off his info of being done a average of 7 times a month, now granted, he could have to be there more then once a day, but I would imagine those would be fairly rare.


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## pinnaclesnow

Hey everyone, Thanks for the help on this. Really gave me some good knowledge on how to estimate for these properties. I was wondering, since everyone on this thread was so helpful, if I could get some info/advice on being sub-contracted for plowing this season. I was asked by a company if they could hire me as a sub contractor for a property. Being new to all of this I have know idea what this entails and how it all works.
Any info would be great.


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## Wayne Volz

*Sub contracting*

You will get a lot of different ideas on this subject for sure. I think you are on track looking for your own jobs. Yes subbing does take a lot of then business pressure off you such as selling, collecting the money, bidding jobs, etc. However, the trade off for the experience may be worth it to you. When I first started plowing back in 1979, I decided to get my own accounts and get through the learning curve. School of hard knocks is a great teacher, but expensive for sure.

However, if you have a good handle on your cost per hour of operation and a sound bidding process in place, I would go for it on my own.

Good luck with your decision.


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## buckwheat_la

If you wish you can phone me directly, 315-1521


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## forbidden

Winter is coming...... I think we are going to get labelled this year. We work on one McDonalds for summer work (new this summer) and they still don't know what they are doing for winter work yet. Open 24hrs as well. About to find myself in the same boat as the OP I think.


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## pinnaclesnow

forbidden;1318838 said:


> Winter is coming...... I think we are going to get labelled this year. We work on one McDonalds for summer work (new this summer) and they still don't know what they are doing for winter work yet. Open 24hrs as well. About to find myself in the same boat as the OP I think.


OP here, I was wondering if you could give me some help with the summer work portion for the McDonalds, literally just got off the phone with the owner and he wants me to come out next week and quote for summer maintenance on the properties. Very new at summer maintenance so I could use some advice.


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## pinnaclesnow

I aslo have a bid for a local bank, It will be a monthly contract and thanks to this thread on my McDonalds properties I have a good idea on what to charge for the plowing. But I am also required to do the snow removal on the city sidewalks surrounding the property and I have no Idea how to charge monthly for that. The sidewalks are to be cleared when "trace amounts" of snow has fallen. there is a total of 565 ft of side walk to clear. the rest of the property(parking lot) is to be cleared at 4 inches. I'v never been responsible for that much side walk so im unsure.
It is outlined in red on the pic. Its a new bank so google does not have a shot of it built yet.


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## buckwheat_la

Which bank? we are doing scotis, rbc, and cibc here


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## pinnaclesnow

BMO (Bank of Montreal)


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## forbidden

We look at the McDonalds we do as a average size residential lot. $38 for the cut and trim. We ended up with some minor maintenance from them, pruning of trees and hedges and some larger work like tree removal, stump grinding and supply 8 yards or so of rundle rock. There is weeding to be done quite often, we ran a dedicated weeding crew this year to free up the mowing crews to concentrate on their tasks. Worked out quite well.


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## TPS Alberta

Hey Pinnacle,

I see your new to the commercial stuff. I am as well, Im operating TITAN Property Services in Edmonton. If youre interested in doing any work together let me know. Ive got a f350 with v-plow and bobcat s-750. Im sure we could help each other out. This will be about my 2nd year in the biz and ive made a few great contacts so far and would love to make some more.

As for those prices of $3000 for all three that is ridiculous. we have a lot of low ballers up here.


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## pinnaclesnow

TPS Alberta;1321463 said:


> Hey Pinnacle,
> 
> I see your new to the commercial stuff. I am as well, Im operating TITAN Property Services in Edmonton. If youre interested in doing any work together let me know. Ive got a f350 with v-plow and bobcat s-750. Im sure we could help each other out. This will be about my 2nd year in the biz and ive made a few great contacts so far and would love to make some more.
> 
> As for those prices of $3000 for all three that is ridiculous. we have a lot of low ballers up here.


Ya I think we should talk, really think we could do some work together. Im only running one skid steer this year (2010 john deere 320d with Kage plow system) and its looking like I will have more work than I can handle. I will send you a private message with my email address.


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## bristolturf

Your first picture is about .6 acres the second is .75 acres and the last is about .65 acres. With that loader in a wide open lot your production will be upwords of about 1.75 acres per hour, for those lots probably around 1 acre per hour. So you can just bet on each lot, 1 hour of time. I still have no idea how you thought that would take 11 hours, each mcdonalds is about 1.5 miles apart, and they are all off of the same road which is a main road. That means if you started to plow the first one at 4 am, you would be starting the last one at around 12pm, and would not have been back through the first one for about 7 hours to do any sort of cleanup, you would be fired before the first storm was even over. Total for everything including travel time your probably looking at 3.5-4 hours max for a 3-4 inch snow storm and thats doing the initial plowing and going back through them all one time and doing a quick final cleanup. With them beging that close, I dont know why you wouldnt just park the truck and trailer at on place, and just drive to each location. If you have a single speed loader that will go 10 mph, which means from the first site to the second will take you no more than 10minutes, if you have the two speed that means 17mph and your talking about 5 minutes of drive time in the loader where your going to have probably about 5 minutes of loading and unloading, then another 5 minutes of traveling with a truck and trailer. Start at the first one, plow, second plow, third plow (by the time your done with the third the snow should have stopped and you can run through the other two on your way back and just do some quick 10-15 minutes of cleanup and be on your way.)

It shouldnt even take you an hour per site with that machine. You have to remember your using a skid loader with a plow. Take of the sides and just use it as a plow and you will be much quicker then using it as a pusher. Plow it to one side, spin and just keep pushing it all back and forth and you do your stacking all on one side. Put the sides back on to do your final cleanup and your out of there.

So with the numbers hes submitting at $1015 per store per month, to throw out a safe estimate of 10 hours of plowing per month, that means hes getting $101.15/hour which is a fair number. He is falling into the area of 95-120 per hour like you stated. If you go with the lower end of my 3.5 hours per route, that means 8 hours per month, your making $127 per hour. So hes right where he should be on that site.

In other news, why are there so many mcdonalds in such a close proximety? in like a 3 mile radius there is like 8 mcdonalds.


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## WIPensFan

bristolturf;1328053 said:


> Your first picture is about .6 acres the second is .75 acres and the last is about .65 acres. With that loader in a wide open lot your production will be upwords of about 1.75 acres per hour, for those lots probably around 1 acre per hour. So you can just bet on each lot, 1 hour of time. I still have no idea how you thought that would take 11 hours, each mcdonalds is about 1.5 miles apart, and they are all off of the same road which is a main road. Total for everything including travel time your probably looking at 3.5-4 hours max for a 3-4 inch snow storm and thats doing the initial plowing and going back through them all one time and doing a quick final cleanup. With them beging that close, I dont know why you wouldnt just park the truck and trailer at on place, and just drive to each location. If you have a single speed loader that will go 10 mph, which means from the first site to the second will take you no more than 10minutes, if you have the two speed that means 17mph and your talking about 5 minutes of drive time in the loader where your going to have probably about 5 minutes of loading and unloading, then another 5 minutes of traveling with a truck and trailer.
> 
> It shouldnt even take you an hour per site with that machine. You have to remember your using a skid loader with a plow. Take of the sides and just use it as a plow and you will be much quicker then using it as a pusher. Plow it to one side, spin and just keep pushing it all back and forth and you do your stacking all on one side. Put the sides back on to do your final cleanup and your out of there.
> 
> So with the numbers hes submitting at $1015 per store per month, to throw out a safe estimate of 10 hours of plowing per month, that means hes getting $101.15/hour which is a fair number. He is falling into the area of 95-120 per hour like you stated. If you go with the lower end of my 3.5 hours per route, that means 8 hours per month, your making $127 per hour. So hes right where he should be on that site.
> 
> In other news, why are there so many mcdonalds in such a close proximety? in like a 3 mile radius there is like 8 mcdonalds.


Bristol, you are forgetting he is going to plow each place multiple times per storm, not just once.


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## bristolturf

Those numbers I gave are simply based on a 3-4 inch snow storm. Yes some will be more, but some will be less, so its just an average. And on a 3-4 inch storm, with a skid. Yes I said 1 hour per lot, but ultimately it will probably take a little less time. If your an effeciant operator, you can move some serious snow, quickly. A good operator could probably have those two smaller lots done in about 35-40 minutes and the larger lot done in about 45 minutes, which will total up to 2 hours and 15 minutes with travel time. So even to plow each one twice hes still at 4.5 hours which still gets him $97/hour and thats plowing each lot two full times, which could add up to a decent amount of snow. I dont know all the numbers of a season in his area, but I am just saying that the guy who bid 3k per month for all three stores isnt that horribly low, he is on the lower end, but I wouldnt say its a low ball bid, especially with no salt.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

pinnaclesnow;1315815 said:


> Ya, basically $1000/month per store...unlimited. snowfall varies greatly, last year we had close to record snow fall with 35 inches in January alone. normal year I would say we get anyway from 4-7 days per month where snow would have to be plowed, but we have crazy weather up here and some years doesn't snow until christmas, others early october. it has even snowed in August before.
> 
> Definitely needs salt, service is important, big liability risk cause they are so busy.


for canada? !! thats terrible lol. How many months do they pay you $1000 per store? You must get snow sooner and later in the seasons than we do in NJ in the US.. here we generally only get snow dec/jan/feb and first week of march.. If its $3000x6 then maybe you can profit from it.

$1000 per month includes salt or no? Because for that much i wouldnt ever even plow them, and still that might not be enough for plowing.


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## bristolturf

I believe he said no salt and its for 5 months. The average snowfall for his area is about 48" per year, which is pretty much identical to my climate (Milwaukee WI). I believe as I have stated before, if you are set up right, which he is (skid and pusher/plow) and are an effective operator you can profit at those prices


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## REAPER

The OP said he would be salting. It was another poster that said No salt-no pay. Thumbs Up

We do a few McDonald's here. During business hours if it was snowing we circled the lot with blade down then threw salt behind. Depending on snowfall amount depended on amount spread and how often. Going back late night with either no cars or very few is when total clean up was done. 

When doing the drive thru during open hours make sure you stop at the speaker and wait until all cars are clear then zoom it past the window without stopping. That is a strange trigger. Ours have 0 tolerance. Salt below 1 inch and plow anything over. I would talk to whomever it takes and make sure of what they want. Explain to them a trigger of 2" or more is very risky for slip-n-falls. 

Even the largest lot we did never took more then an hour including salt. Only time a skid was used was to move piles. Not sure of the laws in Canada but I would suggest a truck/blade combo. If that's not possible be very careful because the customers there wont be.


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## pinnaclesnow

Hey everyone, this is the OP. Just giving an update on the three mcdonalds properties. So we ended up signing a 5 month contract for this season at $3510/month. I came up with that price by estimating the total time to do all three in on shot. it was 9.5 hrs at $90/hr, and a max of 4 visits per month. any more that 4 visits will be charged at 1/4 of the monthly price. and we get that amount even if it does not snow, no refund on monthly price. The basic terms of the contract are as follows. 3 inch trigger point and snowfall stopped for min of 2 hrs, or 5 inch max then we come out. max of 4 visits per month, and no salting or sanding. we are not responsible if cars are parked to come back and clean up. if were there twice in a day that counts as 2 visits. got a lawyer to write up a contract for me. We cant be held liable for slip and fall either. 

we had our first snowfall and it was 5 inches, only took 6.5 hrs including drive time so I did very well on the estimates. any questions just ask.


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## bristolturf

I dont know if i like the charge a 1/4 per month for anything over 4 visits in the month. It just doesnt seem like its a good situation for either party. I would have also just stated the contract total is based on 20 visits per season. So if come February your already at 20 visits anything after that if per push or per event or something. What happens if that 5 plow in one month is a 12" storm and you plow each lot 1 time (cant get to them all quick enough) and your out there for 20 hours plowing those 3 lots. At your contract specs, you will only get paid $877.50 for those 20 hours of work, which equates to $43.00/hour when you should be getting about 1800-2500 for that storm, your losing money at that rate.

It probably sounded good and well, but i would not have entered into that contract. I can just see the pm complaining one month when you plowed 3 times then the next month you plowed 5. I would never enter into something thats set per month, its set per season or per event.

good luck.


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## pinnaclesnow

bristolturf;1367686 said:


> I dont know if i like the charge a 1/4 per month for anything over 4 visits in the month. It just doesnt seem like its a good situation for either party. I would have also just stated the contract total is based on 20 visits per season. So if come February your already at 20 visits anything after that if per push or per event or something. What happens if that 5 plow in one month is a 12" storm and you plow each lot 1 time (cant get to them all quick enough) and your out there for 20 hours plowing those 3 lots. At your contract specs, you will only get paid $877.50 for those 20 hours of work, which equates to $43.00/hour when you should be getting about 1800-2500 for that storm, your losing money at that rate.
> 
> It probably sounded good and well, but i would not have entered into that contract. I can just see the pm complaining one month when you plowed 3 times then the next month you plowed 5. I would never enter into something thats set per month, its set per season or per event.
> 
> good luck.


the 1/4 part is basically charging him 877.5 per additional clearing over 4 in the month. At first I said any additional would be charged per hour, but he wanted the same rate all the time. Ya it would probably would have been better to do it seasonally. well in the contract im out at 5 inches max, and we had a snowfall already at 5" and it only took 6 hours, so basically $146/hr( I estimated 9.5) and they are literally a 5 min drive from each other so the snow wont accumulate much past that. And realistically the amount of snow past 5 inches really wont make a difference with the plow im using, even if it took an extra hour per lot in a storm, i am still within my estimated time. I use a Kage Innovation plow/pushbox combo.

Thats my only major contract so he is first on the list(priority clearing) the rest are all per hour charges. so i will get to those ones first in a storm, and if it snows 5 inches and I clear it and it snows again 3 inches or more in the same storm its considered 2 clearings.


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## bristolturf

what i am saying more or less is. Yes that skid will be effective. However, say you get a huge storm thats dumping 2 or 3 inches per hour, it can happen i experienced it in february, picked up like 30 inches of snow in about 12 hours or something like that. Youre never going to be able to keep up with something like that. you get to the site and there is 15" on the lot or something, your not going to be doing that plowing in 6 hours, probably somewhere in the range of 12-15 hours and your tellign me your ok with only making $877.50 for that, you will only be making $58.50-73.00/hour. 

Your only plowing 2 acres of snow in 6 hours, which equates to .33 acre/hr which is extremely slow considering on a lot with lots of cars, curbs, and other obstructions a regular pusher (not a kage) can do about .5 acres/hr . You should be able to plow all those lots in probably 3-4 hours max during a 5 inch storm.


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## pinnaclesnow

bristolturf;1369497 said:


> what i am saying more or less is. Yes that skid will be effective. However, say you get a huge storm thats dumping 2 or 3 inches per hour, it can happen i experienced it in february, picked up like 30 inches of snow in about 12 hours or something like that. Youre never going to be able to keep up with something like that. you get to the site and there is 15" on the lot or something, your not going to be doing that plowing in 6 hours, probably somewhere in the range of 12-15 hours and your tellign me your ok with only making $877.50 for that, you will only be making $58.50-73.00/hour.
> 
> Your only plowing 2 acres of snow in 6 hours, which equates to .33 acre/hr which is extremely slow considering on a lot with lots of cars, curbs, and other obstructions a regular pusher (not a kage) can do about .5 acres/hr . You should be able to plow all those lots in probably 3-4 hours max during a 5 inch storm.


In regards to the big snow fall of 2-3 inches per hour, how is that any different if I was to go in for a monthly contract that is unlimited? obviously for a much higher monthly price, but would I not lose out in that situation as well, isn't snow removal a gamble kinda when your in a monthly contract, u hope for less snow but if it snows a lot you might lose a bit on a snow fall but on average or overall your still ahead?

Im new to this so just trying to figure things out, definitely appreciate you brining this to my attention.

Where do you live, here in edmonton 2-3 inches per hour or a 30 inch snow fall is unheard of, last year was the biggest annual snow fall in probably the last 10 years or as long as I can remember and the biggest snowfall we had was about 12 inches within a 12-24 hour period in january. so still definitely manageable.

And yes I am hoping to do those lots within 4 hours, that snow fall we had when I did it in 6 was literally my first time plowing so I can only get better.....I hope, but either way i think I still did good on my quotes.


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## bristolturf

i am not suggesting going in an unlimited contract, unless you have a multi year deal (at least 3 years, that way it will usually weigh it self out.) Unlimited, snowfall for 1 year is a gamble, but if the price is right i will do it. I set up my seasonal to be cut off usually at 55-60" so it gives some fluff for the seasonal averages. After that its just a per storm pricing. And I would say yes and no to your question about a light snowfall when your on seasonal. Its helpful yes becasue you have money coming in, but then again a good contractor will have a diverse portfolio. Meaning, he will have a good balance between seasonal contracts and some that are per push, so that in a heavier season you can still do ok becasue some accoutns your making money per event and in the lighter winter your still getting cash flow. 

I am in WI, pretty much the same climate as you have we get about 48-50" yearly, etc. That storm was a blizzard, isnt really common here either, but it just happened. Not much you could do about it. All i know is I plowed the morning before for about 10 hours, got a 6 hour break and was at it again for 30 straight hours, then i was working 12 hour shifts for the next like week and a half just hauling snow out. 

Like I said, i think the way you set up your contract is not in either parties best interest, a bigger storm your leaving money on the table, a lighter storm and hes overpaying and getting upset. 

I strongly suggest either doing a cap on the number of inches, i.e 50" or whatever and then doing it per event there after, or do seasonal with a set number of visits. Your doring 4/month for 5 months now, so do something like 20-25 visits for the year and there after is again per event. Now when doing seasonals you need to always think about salting. Say your leaving it at 50" of snow, well you need to consider your salting. Figure your going to plow about 15-20 times for that. That also means 15-20 saltings, but then i always figure in an extra 12-15 saltings usually for those little storms or what have you. So I will say seasonal rate is good up to 50" of snow and 30 applications of salt or similar to that.


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## pinnaclesnow

bristolturf;1370381 said:


> i am not suggesting going in an unlimited contract, unless you have a multi year deal (at least 3 years, that way it will usually weigh it self out.) Unlimited, snowfall for 1 year is a gamble, but if the price is right i will do it. I set up my seasonal to be cut off usually at 55-60" so it gives some fluff for the seasonal averages. After that its just a per storm pricing. And I would say yes and no to your question about a light snowfall when your on seasonal. Its helpful yes becasue you have money coming in, but then again a good contractor will have a diverse portfolio. Meaning, he will have a good balance between seasonal contracts and some that are per push, so that in a heavier season you can still do ok becasue some accoutns your making money per event and in the lighter winter your still getting cash flow.
> 
> I am in WI, pretty much the same climate as you have we get about 48-50" yearly, etc. That storm was a blizzard, isnt really common here either, but it just happened. Not much you could do about it. All i know is I plowed the morning before for about 10 hours, got a 6 hour break and was at it again for 30 straight hours, then i was working 12 hour shifts for the next like week and a half just hauling snow out.
> 
> Like I said, i think the way you set up your contract is not in either parties best interest, a bigger storm your leaving money on the table, a lighter storm and hes overpaying and getting upset.
> 
> I strongly suggest either doing a cap on the number of inches, i.e 50" or whatever and then doing it per event there after, or do seasonal with a set number of visits. Your doring 4/month for 5 months now, so do something like 20-25 visits for the year and there after is again per event. Now when doing seasonals you need to always think about salting. Say your leaving it at 50" of snow, well you need to consider your salting. Figure your going to plow about 15-20 times for that. That also means 15-20 saltings, but then i always figure in an extra 12-15 saltings usually for those little storms or what have you. So I will say seasonal rate is good up to 50" of snow and 30 applications of salt or similar to that.


Well definitely something to think about, and yes about 50% of my accounts are monthly contracts and 50% are per push/hourly.
Im thinking next season I will do 20 visits per year, then per push after that, and for salting,thats only on a per call basis so I charge hourly for that.


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## PhilFromErie

I don't get the idea of how some guys can get away with a cap on seasonal contracts. Where I'm form they would be $1,500 - $1,800 per year.


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