# The dreaded nationals USM etc



## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

My thoughts.

Theyre not going away. They are the way of the future. More and more pop up every year, and every year we say on here that USM and their likes are going to go under.
Yet every year USM is growing and signing more contracts.

We drive by the local Walmarts and see less than stellar performance and think to ourselves "Ha, when I did the lot you could eat off it. Ill have that contract back next year"

Then next year, you inquire only to find out that the National still has the contract.

How can that be?
Could walmart and the other big boxes be so stupid?

It all comes down to dollars and cents.

Walmart (as an example) is not in the property maintenance business. They are in the business of moving product. Thats what they want to concentrate on. 
Their power is buying. Thats where their focus is. As long as they can buy their products cheaper than anyone else, and get that product to the shelves cheaper it will sell itself.

Marketing, presentation, quality, is all secondary. Thats not the area they are competing in.

Thats why walmart associates are poorly paid and its a lousy high turnover job.
They are not critical to Walmarts operation. They are bodies to stock shelves and they have an endless supply.

On the flip side. Did you know that walmarts trucking division, is one if not THE best trucking job you can get out there? They are some of the highest paid, best compensated drivers on there. Drivers who get in with Walmart usually stay forever. 

So the store workers are paid nothing, treated like crap, and hate Walmart, while the truck drivers are top paid, well taken care of, and love the company.

Why is that?

Exactly the reason I stated. Walmarts main business is getting the product from the supplier to the store. They are a transportation company more than they are a retailer.
The customers know that if they go to walmart, its going to be cheaper than going somewhere else. Plain and simple.

Their truck drivers are their bread and butter. They are the main focus. Walmart must keep their transportation division steady. 

Going with a national maintenance company only makes sense for these stores.

Now they dont need an entire division to deal with bids, contracts, legals, and every little detail of thousands of stores. They dont have thousands of invoices to process, thousands of individual contracts to deal with. Thousands of individual checks to write. Thousands of contractors to "qualify" etc

They can now outsource all of that to one company and keep their focus on their core business.

Now how about service?

As contractors we look at a "good job" by the appearance. Does the landscaping look nice? Does the snow look well maintained?

Walmart looks at the numbers. Not the appearance.

They save millions and millions of dollars by outsourcing.

Its a simple formula

They outsource and save $100,000 a year on your local store by not hiring individual contractors for each little service.

So USM hires who they do and gets the job done. And we think the guys do a pretty crappy job and Walmart is furious.

But how is it affecting their sales?

Are they losing business because the lawn doesnt look as good?
Are they losing business because the plowing isnt as good?
Are they losing business because the powerwashing isnt as good?

And are they losing more than $100,000 a year in profit due to that?

I guarantee you they're not. 

Nobody is going somewhere else to spend more money on an item because they have a nicer looking lawn than Walmart.

If they leave their house in the snow and drive all the way to walmart on snow covered roads and have to park in a "less than zero tolerance" parking lot, theyre not going somewhere else to spend more because they do a better plow job.

Walmarts "standards" are in the numbers not the appearance.


Walmart is also able to transfer the liability to USM.
They in turn transfer the liability to the contractor.

USM and walmart both win BIG in this department.

Its called the Hold Harmless and DEFEND. Clause.

That is the scariest clause to agree to in the whole contract.

If you sign a USM contract, which I have one here right on my desk, you agree to HOLD HARMLESS AND DEFEND both USM and WALMART.

Not too many people know what that clause means.

What it means is the following.

Someone slips and falls and sues.
They name in the lawsuit YOU, USM, And Walmart.
Yes, all 3 are sued.

However.

USM agrees to Hold Harmless and DEFEND walmart.
YOU agree to Hold Harmless and DEFEND USM and WALMART.

Hold harmless is fine.......Its that little DEFEND word thats the killer.

What that means is that YOUR insurance company agrees to provide the lawyers to defend YOU, provide the lawyers to defend USM, and provide the lawyers to defend Walmart.

Your insurance company will pay for the defense of EVERYONE.

So there is not much risk on walmart or USMs part by having a slippery parking lot.
You agree to pay their lawyers if there is a problem. 
Whats the downside?


That ONE clause is the ONLY reason I wont work for USM.
I set my own pricing and if they take it they take it, if not, I walk away. So I could care less about what "they pay". 

But I will not agree to accept 100% liability.

But thats just me.

For every one of me, there are 100 guys who would give their nuts to be able to be "bigtime snow plowers" and plow their local Walmart.

Look at all the threads on this board or others. How many pop up as small time guys asking "How do I get the big commercial accounts?"

Years ago, they couldnt. Years ago, you had to be a well established, proven company, to be able to get a shot at a big commercial site.

Now, its open to anyone and to most of these small inexperienced guys price is secondary. They are so excited to have the job, making money off it is just a bonus.

A lot of these guys will pull it off. Maybe not a good as a bigtime guy, but they will pull it off for the season. They may make money, may break even, or may lose money, but in the meantime the work will get done for the price that USM is willing to pay.

If that guy falls on his face, USM has hundreds of others lined up right behind him.


This is plain reality guys. What we THINK the customer wants, is way off from reality.

Theyre not coming back. 

As long as guys are willing to work for USM and others, they will be just fine.

We think theyre screwing up bigtime, yet walmart is signing them hundreds more stores every year.
The deal is working out GREAT for them. They LOVE Usm.
Youre not going to sell them on quality. You cant compete against USM.

The ONLY thing you can do is worry about your own business. Find work that you can profit from and you;ll be fine. But that $60,000 walmart contract you had that is now $25,000 will not be crawling back. Dont keep your loaders on standby.


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

*Well said*

Yes, it is the sad reality of it. And agreed, cry and try and protest all you want - its not changing anytime soon. Adapt or be left behind, being in denial about it is not going to do anything for your bottom line. This has been in the works for a while, the hammer came down and there are going to be a lot of shocked people come snow season. It stinks but the writing has been on the wall for quite a while now - it was a trial run last season, now its full on after kinks worked out. USM is not going away anytime soon, and they want to clear their desk as quickly as possible - heck, you cannot even call most of these companies anymore, its all faceless email correspondence. Like it or not, if its not USM, it will probably be another firm. Like it or not, if you refuse to agree to terms, someone else would love to. Its all numbers and bottom line to them in the end. This is the reason they are big business, they know how to play the game and get best price - that is their power and lets be real, their job. Don't fool yourself in thinking otherwise.

People will come no matter what, if they fall or get into an accident or by how clean the lot is, no big deal because they will trickle liablity down onto contractor anyway for most part if they get sued. Really the "little guy" is the one that is the loser - damed if you deal with them, damned if you don't.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Haven't we covered this 100 times, maybe more?


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

hoskm01;1066215 said:


> Haven't we covered this 100 times, maybe more?


Well considering most of the threads are from the point of view that USM is going under and walmart and such will be crawling back.

I figured I would spend some time to type out my thoughts which seem to differ from the norm to maybe provoke some different discussion on a topic apparently interesting enough to come up 100 times or more.


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

procut, VERY well put!!!


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## balky22 (Nov 18, 2007)

i agree . thank you for a dieffrent look at an age old story. and as a society we don't like change. but it will happen with us or with out us . thanks procut


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

i love this point of view, I agree with two things 1) the nationals are here to stay 2) walmart well not come slinking back due to poor performance


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## csi.northcoast (Aug 7, 2010)

AMEN PROCUT

my 2 cents

In most cases if you told your insurance company or agent you signed that contract (which youy will hold harmless and defend) 9 times out of 10 you would be dropped... not to mention if you did have a silip & fall, not only will you be sued , but most sum bag attorneys will find any sub you had plowing/salting and they will be named in the suit, truxt me it happened to me many years ago when i was a sub, 2 years later they settled,,not to mention my 5 hour deposition. ( i was only on that property twice and it was 2 weeks before and 10 days after the slip and fall incident. (belive it or not the scum bag attorney actually want to hire me as an expert witness 6 weeks later (guess what my answer was)


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

BUT this additude that says we just need to adjust, that those corporations are too big, i could draw so many parallels throughout history. Does anyone think that by hiding your head and hoping things well be ok is going to solve anything. Snowman 5313 had a great idea, and i definetly think it bares exploration. I well let you in on one other little secret, where the nationals are weak is in the small markets. What would a company like USM do if a small market of snow removal contractors refused to work under the conditions USM what exactly is USM going to do? pay another company to drive 100 miles to do one property?!?! I don't think so. I am not even in a market where USM has a efffect......yet. Their name is starting to get thrown around though and Level 1 maintenance made a apperance this spring


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

Great post
I swear I write that post once a year and get hammered for it.
Great post

And anyone stupid enough to sign a contract like that, well...............

BTW, i do think it will cycle back.
Might take 5 to 10 years, but after a while, all those little companies who borrow (big problem) to go big on unprofitable accounts and get sued into oblivioun, well, they won't exist anymore

And then WalMart (s) will decide, "hey, we can cut out the middle man and contract directly and save tons of money"

then, it will back

You watch, everything in business goes in cycles.
there are no new ideas.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

There are guys in big and small markets. 

I think there are only 2 things contractors can do.

1. Figure out how to gear your business to work at the "going rates" AND PROFIT.
2. No longer consider these types your market. Pursue other work that you can charge a better rate on.

As far as changing the minds of the corporations. Thats not going to happen.

ESPECIALLY in this economy. With unemployment as high as it is, and only going to keep going higher, there will be more and more lawn and snow guys out there.

Since the qualifications to work for companies like USM are much less than working direct for the store, they have an endless supply of guys to work.

A few reputable contractors refusing to work for them wont even make them blink.

USM has 20+ people that all they do is process applications for contractors wanting to work for them. And they cant keep up.

Its a sucky reality check.

Im usually the guy on lawnsite pizzing on the parade like this, but I hate to say it. As long as we're in an industry that is relatively easy to enter, its going to attract a lot of people.

Just like in the lawn business. There will always be "high end" accounts.
But those are dwindling in numbers.

Walmart was a zero tolerance high end account at one time. Until they realized that being zero tolerance high end did nothing but cost them a ton extra money with no benefit to the bottom line.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

LoneCowboy;1066250 said:


> Great post
> I swear I write that post once a year and get hammered for it.
> Great post
> 
> ...


Youre right.

But what do you think about this?

If it does cycle back and they go back to direct with contractors.
They are going to look to save money from the $25,000 that the store is going for then.

Theyre not going to go back to the $60,000 it was before the nationals.

So either way, its still a lousy deal for the contractor.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

While most of you are commending procut, the real truth is he is full of crap. Yes the clause is in there, but in the real world if someone falls on Walmart's lot they are liable in MOST states. It's funny our local Walmarts are still, yes that is still being serviced by local companies. Why might you ask? It's simple math my friends.

Procuts thoughts on all these sites is "guys I couldn't make it in this business, neither can you". While he may think that, he's wrong. Now I know of a few people whom work for USM. They have done it for years, and get paid on a regular basis with little or no problems. I also live about 45 mins for their headquarters, so maybe that makes a difference. 

The real issue with the big box stores is convenience. Most expect the stores to look good. Walmart spends millions refurbishing stores every year. Hell the local Spanish Walmart here in Reading just went through a major refurb. And they also did it six years ago when I moved in. The company care about appearance. Appearance sells product. 

So that leaves the question why did contractors that were doing a great job get let go? First is for sure price. You might not having been charging more then USM, but it's another company to write a check to and frankly someone small where if something did happen on your watch, you might be hard to track down. Second is the one contact. Think if you had 500 stores, wouldn't be nice if you could give all your managers one number to call? 

Guys, IMO SIMA is a joke. We as the people in the business need to come together and do away with them. Start and new group, not designed to take our money and tell us about a few new products and a whole bunch of crap we already know, but help us market to these big box stores. As a co op, we can bid large groups of stores, shifting most of the money to the end user. Sure we would need staff to handle paper work, answer calls, and such, but most of the cash could go to the men behind the wheels.

Think about it. If we had a site, well hell we already do in Plowsite, where we could openly ask good standing member, whom staff have prequalified with insurance, maybe even had a large insurance buy for it's members, and talked openly about numbers. Where can we cut costs, what can we do to put more cash in our pockets while providing better service, don't you think a Walmart would look at that? 

Again guys I saw it this year with Kindercare. They don't want to spend more, and USM, Dentco, Lipinski, and the other nationals that bid it must have been to high, because the companies that were doing the work are still doing the work. So if that is the case how can they be cheaper on Walmart? They aren't. They are charging our rates keeping anywhere from 10%-50% and screwing the little guy. If the little guy can do the same work at the same or better price and have on contact for all their stores, they'll bite in a heartbeat.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Nicely said Procut! Another insightful thought just like your other post about "how to loose your business" on Lawn Site. In short this is where you need to know your costs, expenses, profit margin's etc. I bid a couple large lots this year and it really opened my eyes to actual numbers and what they mean. I agree 100% that it used to be the well established companies who got the "honor" of doing these large places like WalMart, Targets etc. They didn't get that big and experience buy just throwing a number out there and hope for the best! Now its usually lowest bid wins. I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second, first off, we are without a doubt our own worst enemy and I honestly think until "we" start taking ourselves serious know one else will. I'm not acting on behalf or promoting SIMA, but a friend of mine let me take a look as to what they offer and taught him and again, it opened my eyes a ton. Picture this, if we all were members, we all knew what the hell we need to make to make a living doing this, 85% of these posts would be non-existant. There is so much more to running a successful business than just throwing a number out there and hope it sticks. There, I'm done.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Even though I paid a lawyer a lot of money to explain USMs contract to me. Ill make it simple for you since apparently my lawyer is full of it. 

Punch "hold harmless and defend" into the googles and read what it means.

If you think im FOS on here or any site im on....By all means please, call me out on it. Prove me wrong.

"I didnt make it and neither can you"

I find that pretty insulting if that is what you gathered from my posts.
I think you should rephrase that to "Here is where I went wrong, dont make this mistake"

Ive written extensively about things that I did wrong, and learned from. Areas that I failed and learned the right way after it was too late.

And yes. It pisses on a lot of parades. Someone new and starry eyed is not going to want to read what I write about. Just as I didnt listen to people who told me the same thing.

Im doing just fine in the snow business. Im not on here crying about lowballers and nationals taking my work. I cant work for their rates so I dont even consider them my potential customers.

Others can work at those prices and will. More power to them.
A lot of others are holding their hands on their ass waiting for these jobs to come crawling back.
I dont think its going to happen.

If there is one thing ANYONE who reads my threads will agree......I have no problem admitting when Im wrong......As a matter of fact, almost everything I write about is where I was wrong.

So ill say again in summary.

IN MY OPINION.......

Nationals are not going away and will continue to grow. The deal is working out great for the big corporations. The days of getting big money working direct for your local store are over. And a few or a group or even a big group of contractors are not going to make the big guys blink an eye.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

procut1;1066289 said:


> Nationals are not going away and will continue to grow. The deal is working out great for the big corporations. The days of getting big money working direct for your local store are over. And a few or a group or even a big group of contractors are not going to make the big guys blink an eye.


LMAO, i tell you what, you get enough contractors together, and made it all but impossible for USM to service even 5% of the Walmarts there would be a change


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Brian Young;1066278 said:


> Nicely said Procut! Another insightful thought just like your other post about "how to loose your business" on Lawn Site. In short this is where you need to know your costs, expenses, profit margin's etc. I bid a couple large lots this year and it really opened my eyes to actual numbers and what they mean. I agree 100% that it used to be the well established companies who got the "honor" of doing these large places like WalMart, Targets etc. They didn't get that big and experience buy just throwing a number out there and hope for the best! Now its usually lowest bid wins. I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second, first off, we are without a doubt our own worst enemy and I honestly think until "we" start taking ourselves serious know one else will. I'm not acting on behalf or promoting SIMA, but a friend of mine let me take a look as to what they offer and taught him and again, it opened my eyes a ton. Picture this, if we all were members, we all knew what the hell we need to make to make a living doing this, 85% of these posts would be non-existant. There is so much more to running a successful business than just throwing a number out there and hope it sticks. There, I'm done.


Thanks Brian.

I used to be active in Sima but havent been involved in a few years. This is exactly something that should be a big topic for sima to use with their members.

Companies are not going to change from a system that makes sense and works great.
There is no demand or reason to.

Years ago a computer was $2000
Now theyre $299

Everyone who wanted a computer years ago paid the $2000.
Now you get one that works just fine for 99% of people for $299

Go ahead and build a $2000 computer thats a little better than the one for $299 and see how many you sell.

The snow gets done simply and easily for $25,000 with one company, one contact, one invoice, one check.

Or it can get done a little bit better for $60,000 with thousands of companies, thousands of contacts, thousands of "I broke down call someone else, thousands of RFPs, thousands of contractor interviews, thousands of insurance certs, thousands of invoices, thousands of calls, thousands of checks.

Hmm.....$25,000 smooth and easy
$60,000 migraine

Those of you who believe they are going to go back to the $60,000 migraine.......Instead of saying Im full of BS.....State why you think they will do that.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

buckwheat_la;1066295 said:


> LMAO, i tell you what, you get enough contractors together, and made it all but impossible for USM to service even 5% of the Walmarts there would be a change


Youre absolutely right. I do agree 100%.

But its not a reality thats going to happen.

Their model will make sense for someone.

I cant work for their prices. I also have a big ass overhead, salary employees, and debt to cover.
Thats my business. Someone with a couple trucks working out of their house and have nothing to do but sit and plow walmart the whole storm. That $25,000 is a nice chunk of change for him.

I can tell him "Dont work for them, its too cheap"
He's gonna say "Forget you buddy. Thats good money for me"

Yes. If they run out of contractors, they will have to raise their rates. Theyre not stupid business people.

In my opinion, theyre not going to run out of contractors.

Maybe we wont work for them. But for every one of us, there are hundreds or thousands with a pickup and a dream.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

procut1;1066300 said:


> Youre absolutely right. I do agree 100%.
> 
> But its not a reality thats going to happen.
> 
> ...


again i well say it, you are thinking big centers, do you think that every little town that Walmart is in has a bunch of contractors lined up willing or able to do those lots? of course not, but the contractors in small markets are kept happy by USM so what do they care, do you really think that they have ever heard of Plowsite? i wonder if they even get the same BS contract? Do you think they are held to that contract?


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Procut, I am not saying that you are wrong on this. I just have a more positive outlook. 

Buckwheat, you don't think you could get enough contractors together to cover all the walmarts that receive snow?

I got enough contractor together to cover all the Kindercares in PA. Now that is just one state, but PA isn't a small state and there is a lot of Kindercares in the state, now nowhere near what Walmart is, but it could be done. The idea is you can compete.

And I will say again the nationals are NOT doing the work cheaper. The only savings is in writing on check to one company.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

I think you could get enough contractors to cover it. Definitely I think so.

Thats exactly what the Nationals do. Thats their job.

You would essentially become another National. Which, while having a different business model, your co-op, company, or idea would still have to compete with USM for Walmarts business.

If you can put enough contractors together to get the job done, and do it cheaper than USM does it for, then good chance you can make it happen.

Still doesnt solve the problem of the individual stores being priced at half what they were before.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

at least you take USM'S cut of the profits


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Exactly! And while I don't know exact numbers, I really don't believe they are doing then cheaper. And if they are it is nowhere near half.

A regional provider out here had Home Depot for a few years, and after he lost them (due to poor performance not price) I saw what he make on the deal. Trust me they are doing them much if any cheaper.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

buckwheat_la;1066336 said:


> at least you take USM'S cut of the profits


I dont think the return would be great for the contractor.

The co-op is still going to have to perform the same functions that USM does and will have the same expenses.

The only thing that could get returned to the contractors would be what USM makes as a NET profit for their company. Which if you divide that up among thousands of guys, or even hundreds wont bring the price up that much.

Lets say they sub jobs out at 60% of what they get. I think its a lot more but lets use the opposite extreme.

The job used to be lets say $130,000
USM is charging them $100,000
They sub it to you for $60,000
They make $40,000

A company that size is going to run less than a 10% net profit and be thrilled but lets say they break records and run double that. A 20% bottom line company profit.

Thats $8,000
If the co-op is non-profit. They would return that $8,000 to the contractor.

So the job he had last year for $130,000 this year its $68,000.

68,000 is better than 60,000 but nowhere near the 130.000


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## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

procut1;1066300 said:


> ........But for every one of us, there are hundreds or thousands with a pickup and a dream.......


very poetic, mind if I steal your saying?


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

deicepro;1066352 said:


> very poetic, mind if I steal your saying?


By all means haha.

I think thats how most of us started

A pickup a plow and a dream

Now I have a lot of pickups a lot of plows and every dream about snow is a nightmare..haha


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

Procut touched on a very important secondary issue in this post. Not only is it important to "know your numbers"... just as important you need to know what a job goes for to see if you can "make it work". 
I'll use Lowes as an example (4-6 acre lots) Rich Arlington said they go for about 25K, now to lease or buy a loader for the winter, salt entire lot, etc.. numbers will not work. Using an older loader or backhoe, etc, salting only roadways (standard pratice here in my market on large lots, not how I do it) you can make a decent profit on that account & have it done in no time. I know I was one of the 50K guys a couple years ago, Run newer loader there, salt @ 1000lb/acre etc. This year I really sharpened my pencil to look at cost cutting as upposed to "doing it the right way".
A 5 acre lot can be done with trucks even if necessary (not the best way), a backhoe with a pusher can have it done in less than 2 hrs, if you look at "accepted salt rates" they can be as low as 250 lbs/acre with treated salt. There are savings to be found, if you look, would it be easier to do it "the right way" & have more wiggle room yes. But in reality the client would not even notice a difference.
Every one of us would love to have a fleet of new truck, loaders, etc. Be able to say "look at all the shiny, realiable equipment, all employees on salary "waiting on snow". The fact is it adds temendously to our costs & makes us unable to compete in some situtations. In the econmy we are now in, many clients do not care, they want the best service & best price, if you can't figure it out, they'll try someone else. Loyalty is very limited especially with chains or corpoations it is understandable, if the manager doesn't deliver....they're out the door nearly as fast as us.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Great summary

Its a tough situation. Years ago, when the economy was great, every property seemed to be getting more and more strict on their service. You could get somewhere pushing your quality, your equipment, experience, ability to handle the job. Zero tolerance was becoming the norm.

I worked very closely with another member on this board who ran a large operation.
Boy we had the system down. In the middle of august, sweating our nuts off we were already in full snow mode. Bidding, planning, equipping. Had the 24 hour call line and dispatch office. New equipment, supervisors. You name it and we were on top of the game. Nobody put as much planning and effort into snow as we did.

You know what we learned? All that was nice. But it still didnt command a premium price from the customer. They wanted all we had to offer, far beyond the other bidders........As long as the price matched or was lower.

From the middle of november on, we went out every night to every property doing inspections. I dont care if it didnt snow yet that year and nothing was forecasted. We were out with salt on the truck looking. If someone took a leak in the parking lot and it froze, we were there to salt it before they opened.

We had meetings, training, maps, site plans. This was bigtime stuff.

Looking at the operation you had to ask yourself, "Why would any commercial property go anywhere else?"

As impressive as we were.....It was all great.....Customers loved it.......

As long as we werent a dollar more than Johnnys lawn care, powerwashing, roofing, and painting.

As part of out selling, we used to watch competitors lots. And so many times we would note how our competitors are "blowing it" Our stuff looked great. Parking lots were dry and our competitors are still trying to clear their snow packed lots during peak hours.

We figured....Man....That store or shopping center must be FLIPPING.

When it came time to approach that account......Most of the time, the customer would reply that they are HAPPY WITH WHO THEY HAVE!!!!

WHAT?!?!?!

Here we are on a similar property practically running around with garbage bags to catch snowflakes before they hit the ground....God forbid it was 5am and we didnt have bare pavement we were in a PANIC.

Yet other guys are just rolling into their sites at 5am to start.

Or worse.

If we lost a job for a season. Usually a job that the management was soooo picky and literally seemed impossible to please where in reality we were doing an awesome job.....And i mean that by anyones standards....

The next year we would watch that job closely.....And looking at the work, we KNEW that it must have been a nightmare for the customer. We KNEW there was no way our previous customer would accept that job.

Yet the following year, figuring the customer would see the difference and we would get the job back for sure, they re-sign with the other guy.....HUH????

We never did figure out the answer.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

This is what every thread should be like!.... Excellent points!


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I agree with everything Procut has mentioned( very tuned in if you ask me ). One point I would like to make is - in my area it seems that the companies doing the large accounts all have the large loaders or tractors already for work they do in the warmer months. I'm sure they would rather put them to use in the winter rather than have them sit idle for 5 months. I see a lot of guys on here saying they want to rent or buy a loader to service one of these large accounts, these other companies have you beat already, they have the equipment ready to go. Maybe a few years ago $60000 for a Walmart was a luxury but not really a accurate bid, maybe the true numbers for these companies with the right equipment is $25-30000 per season, maybe they make out ok on these numbers.

I hope my point makes sense? I wish we could all charge the luxury amount on our bids as this would make the work more satisfing to do. Unfortunately some of us are stuck lowering our prices( and signing strange contracts ) to continue working at the same places we used to make good money on.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Procut, well writtern and thought out, I admire that, not enough people here take the time to author a well thought out and well written thread.

The answer you seek is that your former client is happier taking is girlfriend to Cozumel for a week, than he his to be sending you checks for making his property safe, and liability free.


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## johndeereguy (Oct 19, 2006)

One thing to remember is that it all depends on regions, snow totals, and other info not known to all members of plow site. Where I am located out here in Iowa, and a very rural part of Iowa, $25000 to do a 5 acre lot would be a $$$$$$$$ maker for me, but for someone in NY City, he would lose his a**. I did do a WalMart last season, paid in full, and made money. I know I was paid less than half, or probably lots less then what others say it shoudl be done for. But in the end I made money. On the mwoing side of the business I may be cheaper then a guy in Columbus Ohio, but as long as I KNOW my expenses, and make a desired profit, then its kind of hard to say I am not charging enough. Like I have heard before, Know why you charge, what you charge.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

johndeereguy;1066722 said:


> One thing to remember is that it all depends on regions, snow totals, and other info not known to all members of plow site. Where I am located out here in Iowa, and a very rural part of Iowa, $25000 to do a 5 acre lot would be a $$$$$$$$ maker for me, but for someone in NY City, he would lose his a**. I did do a WalMart last season, paid in full, and made money. I know I was paid less than half, or probably lots less then what others say it shoudl be done for. But in the end I made money. On the mwoing side of the business I may be cheaper then a guy in Columbus Ohio, but as long as I KNOW my expenses, and make a desired profit, then its kind of hard to say I am not charging enough. Like I have heard before, Know why you charge, what you charge.


This is what I dont understand with these companies. For example, we live in an area that sees well over 100" per season, 35-40 plowable events and even up to 55 events just a few miles away and I am supposed to get paid the same as a company in say southern Ohio who sees maybe 30"?????? How does this even begin to make sense?!


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## GLLLC (Jan 13, 2004)

Procut1 you are on a roll.. many good points! This should be a must read for all beginners. One point Id like to add- I dont understand why plow guys / landscapers have such low standards and in a lot of cases are willing to work for next to nothing for profit. I had a guy tell me once he just loved being out at night plowing


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## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Just remember that pricing everywhere all depends on what the market will bare....


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## shooterm (Feb 23, 2010)

I dont think theres a future for national "bid" companies but I do think service companies will become more mainstream that walmart wont have troubles finding regular companies to bid on maintence. Taking a cut of profits and providing nothing but contract security is not Walmart way. USM is a stop gap for abit so people will realize there a niche for the service companies. Already there is companies larger the USM doing there work with most likely a more capable office staff. I find it extremely strange they have such a difficult time paying the bills with such a great business model.


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## shooterm (Feb 23, 2010)

I'd also go so far as point to this as proof of industry lag. This subbing style of work is from five years ago.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

The market will balance itself out. There is no doubt that pricing has taken a huge hit over the past few years.

Remember when we all figured on yearly INCREASES?

Ahh. I remember those good days. Every year it was assumed by both you and the customer there would be a reasonable increase.

Not anymore.

That job you have this year is going to want to know next year how much their price is going DOWN.

I remember when this first started happening on a large scale, I would start laughing at the meetings thinking they were joking. I did a great job, they were happy, I was there to discuss the price going up. And they ask how much it would be going down.

All the expenses go up every year. Fuel is up. Salt goes up. Insurance goes up. Nothing whatsoever I pay for goes down in price. Surely that increase would be expected to be passed on. But noo.

We're watching supply and demand at work.

There are a lot more plowers going after the same number of jobs.

Demand is changing. Standards are changing.

Customers who were high end zero tolerance before are now willing to accept a "decent" job at a huge savings.

Companies like USM have opened the door to letting the little guys get a shot at the big work.
Enough of the little guys are pulling it off.

You used to be able to leave the scraps for the driveway guys to fight over. But now the driveway guys are considered your equals on the big work.

Its like when I talk about lawnmowing.

We're not going to alter the market forces no matter how much we complain.
We either have to adapt ourselves to profit in this new market. Or pursue a different market. For some that may be something over than snowplowing


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

I guess also you have to look at it from all sides.

Here's a customers perspective. Customer being ME.

The Ford dealer charges $89hr. Labor here.

The mechanics are paid in the low $20's.

I put an ad up hiring a part time professional mechanic. Ended up with a dealership mechanic for $25hr. A little more than his regular pay to work part time for my company on my vehicles. So nights and weekends he works for me. On the books. All legit.

As a businessman I know why the rate is $89. I dont think its unfair or outrageous. The dealership has massive overhead to cover. 
I dont dispute that rate for a second.

As a customer. I dont care what their overhead is. If I can get the job done for 25 im not paying 89.

I know I can get a mechanic to work on my trucks for 20-25hr.

You know what it will take for a repair shop to get my business?

When they charge close to what im paying now.

Truckrepairsite is starting threads now.......lol

My mechanic is a scrub killing the industry.
im a cheap SOB customer.

My mechanic is matking money he's happy.
my trucks get fixed. Im happy.

What 89hr repair shop is going to convince me to switch?


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## ff610 (Jan 9, 2009)

procut1;1067899 said:


> I guess also you have to look at it from all sides.
> 
> Here's a customers perspective. Customer being ME.
> 
> ...


Great Points in this thread Procut1! But I have one question.... If your mechanic lets says installs a part while working in your shop incorrectly and it blows a $5,000 engine, is the dealership still gonna warranty the work? They trained him. I guess what I'm saying is sometimes its better to pay more and know that someone is going to stand by the work. I too have a mechanic that works for near the same as you. But when I have major repairs (Lets compare to a box store) I take it to a dealership or shop that I can assure that I have someone's a** to back the work up if something happens. If its not major (driveways) then my mechanic can fix it no problem. Expense=Risk. Lower Expense=Higher Risk. Higher Expense=Lower Risk. No it doesn't happen often enough, but experience tells us this is the smart thing to do.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Like I said before......We are our own worst enemies! Until EVERYONE "bands together" and goes on a strike nothing will change, and lets face it that will never happen. I'll be honest, I do some work for a national and they pay me what I wanted, I understand they need to make money and they know I need to make money. When I gave them my price I was in shock that we had to only negotiate one service but they made up for it on another one. I believe some national companies might be worse than others but stay away from them just as if they were a crappy plowing company and you were a customer. Nationals are here to stay. They seem to make life much easier for the chain box stores and are not going anywhere. I do believe things get worse before they get better and things are pretty bad now so......

Another thought just popped in my head. Is this the national's fault completely or did some of the larger companies have a hand in this pricing decline. I've seen companies around here lie,cheat and steal to get some jobs. They have such a huge overhead they need to take jobs at any rate just to keep money coming in in order to pay the bills. So the Lowe's, Homedepot, Walmart etc. they were doing at "their" price is now in the hands of a national and said national asked xyz plowing if they can plow it for x amount. xyz plowing has a huge overhead, equipment payments up the wazzoo and says holy sh!t we better take it so we can make the payments. A couple years of this and look where we're at now.


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

*I feel your pain*

I feel your pain, its not a great feeling to sit and wonder what the price has dropped DOWN to from the last. Yet everything else on our end is going up. Its a way for these companies to secure a bid, with both ends playing the game that leads us the loser in most cases! However, you have to play into it or you won't have any work and or lose sites or work from that firm for good. I really don't think these maintenance companies or corporate care people's jobs are depending on it, its their job to save money and make money. Yet we are expected to play along and or don't play at all. I was just told that on another post pretty much by "a more understanding maintenance rep".

So, we all are put into a positon on deciding on which is the less of two evils, accept the lower rate and be happy to stick with the same firm and thire terms as before or hope they stick to pricing or raise it only to be thown into another game of chance that another national will pick it up and retain you to do it. We also must decide just how low we can go until you are doing the site for free or at a loss. Its getting harder and harder. And the bids are coming in earlier and earlier with little time to digest.

And lets not forget the clerical time that seems to be more cumbersome than doing the work with some contracts. It all has to be a factor. I have not a clue how smaller firms are keeping up with that end of it, and may be a clue why there are so many complaints of not getting paid. If your clerical end of it is not perfect, its a way to throw out a bill! And for any newbies, beware of the dreaded uniform discount taken off the top and or the fact you may not get paid without hours of a fight at all!!! Again, all a factor that is changing how we all bid and get work. Its just outright scary to see these contracts jump from company to company anymore. How are we as contractors supposed to build any type of business on that? You can aquire a whole plaza one year and invest a pile into making sure you do the best job and then get tossed off the next. Even though it will weed out a lot of lowballers when they lose their arse, what is a reputable contractor's incentive to build a relationship and or invest into someone who does not want to invest in you? Loyalty and pride in work is becoming a thing of the past, something that we built our business on is going out the window. As I said before, we must adapt and learn or perish. Good luck guys, its getting brutal out there. My hats off to anyone trying to break into the business lately, its not an easy thing to do anymore as many nationals wont even work with you until you have x number of years in. Lots of hurdles, even for larger, older firms anymore.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I agree Lily, the conditions in which to get into this (the right way) are just not worth it in my opinion. I said it before in another post, a friend of mine plowed 4 years ago and was getting 45/hr. When he asked me what the going rate is anymore I said your lucky to get 30-35/hr.(around here). He thought I was joking but I told him I was dead serious. I just wonder, in most areas is doing 1 or 2 larger box stores even worth it. You have to invest so much into doing one of these stores that it almost out weighs the point of doing them. You could pursue 4 or 5 smaller local places and make the same amount of money without the investment or the headaches. I mean seriously, if you do 4 lots at say 50/plow and 100/salt thats 150.00 in less than 45 minutes total. Now X's that number by 4 and get 600.00 in probably less than 4 hrs. At 4 hours that =150/hr minus materials. You will probably use less salt, less time plowing and no investment in loader's push boxes etc.


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## Lily (Aug 18, 2010)

*However*

The sad part of it all is that if you don't agree, they have a list of a hundred people that will. Especially in this economy, people are starving for work. So, its just a terrible cycle to be spun around in. Sure, a lowballer may take job and fail, but that does not stop the line of ten more that can take their place. There are new people coming in all the time, and most places the big boxes are in have plenty of contractors cutting each others throats to get the big accounts to begin with. And another big one is the seasonal contracts that can go in your favor or not. Most of us being bitten by that last winter. The funny thing is that a lot of them are now writing in that the contract can go even lower if totals don't bear what contact was based on the next season. So, it will go even lower. So that just took out the odds of it being a less snowy winter in that equation (which is part of the lure of the seasonal rate on our side). We have been reading all of the terms being written into contracts the past week or so and we have lost sleep over the scariness of them. And the fact that we feel we are losing control of our own destiny, well, we can be, look for another line of work! Did the Wal Mart thing go away after if flopped last year, no, it got approved anyway. Many of the people in our part of the country walked off mid blizzard last year after agreeing to a crazy low rate. As we suspected, the deal went down anyway for this year. So, everyone is thrown into the pot and we will see what happens and how they award them out and price them out. Uggggh. We can only take it all in and learn from it and give input back when we can, if it falls on deaf ears remains to be seen. So far it has.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I like the idea of a non-profit Professional Plower's Association. I short, this would be an organization who qualifies companies across the country, and instead of any for- profit property management company getting say, a 20-30% the savings is passed back to the company providing the service. This would be a huge undertaking but non more than any other property maintenance company. It just takes a few guys to get the ball rolling. As you (Lily and many other's have stated), lets start taking back some control of our livelihood and the industry in general. I'm game. Again so I'm clear on everything, we also work for a prop. maint. company and so far so good but this has only been a couple month relationship.


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

We are still plowing small to moderate sized commercial accounts. If i had to i would plow homeowner driveways or plow municipal. I will pull the plug on plowing altogether, if my only option is to work for a national company and make next to nothing!


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

I have been really enjoying this topic, great discussion with thought out responses. I have found there is always someone out there willing to work for less than me. If that is not the case I better recheck my numbers. I agree the nationals are here to stay, there are good ones, and rotten ones. I have read some of those contracts, and I would never sign them. Yet they find people every year that do. I do believe that the rotten ones will eventually close down because of the poor service that their contractors are giving. Over the years our company has seen ups and downs in this industry. There was a time municipal work was great money, and we did very well with it. Its now the pits with contracts going for far less than we are willing to work for. I often tell people we do residential, and I get looks that I am nuts, and I cant be making any money. I just think to myself keep thinking that buddy, if you only knew. We have been avoiding HOA for years now, because the guys were doing them to cheap. Well these same guys no longer are doing them because they are not profitable, or are losing them because of poor service. So I am replacing my municipal contracts with good paying HOAs now. There are all kind of places to make money in snow, and its not always the big places. Someone on here took a swing at SIMA again, likes its their fault about the nationals. Why would a guy like me become a member after being in the business 32 years, what could I possible learn? Lots, and I am still learning. Its been said again and again KNOW YOUR NUMBERS, and guess what I thought I did untill I joined SIMA. How many of you do more than just snow? Do you really separate the two businesses, or is one really supporting the other and messing up the numbers. KNOW YOUR NUMBERS. There is lots more, but I will not bore you with the details. Get educated, and always keep an open mind. Lastly thanks again for this refreshing thread.


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## nicksplowing (Oct 5, 2005)

neige;1068338 said:


> i have been really enjoying this topic, great discussion with thought out responses. I have found there is always someone out there willing to work for less than me. If that is not the case i better recheck my numbers. I agree the nationals are here to stay, there are good ones, and rotten ones. I have read some of those contracts, and i would never sign them. Yet they find people every year that do. I do believe that the rotten ones will eventually close down because of the poor service that their contractors are giving. Over the years our company has seen ups and downs in this industry. There was a time municipal work was great money, and we did very well with it. Its now the pits with contracts going for far less than we are willing to work for. I often tell people we do residential, and i get looks that i am nuts, and i cant be making any money. I just think to myself keep thinking that buddy, if you only knew. We have been avoiding hoa for years now, because the guys were doing them to cheap. Well these same guys no longer are doing them because they are not profitable, or are losing them because of poor service. So i am replacing my municipal contracts with good paying hoas now. There are all kind of places to make money in snow, and its not always the big places. Someone on here took a swing at sima again, likes its their fault about the nationals. Why would a guy like me become a member after being in the business 32 years, what could i possible learn? Lots, and i am still learning. Its been said again and again know your numbers, and guess what i thought i did untill i joined sima. How many of you do more than just snow? Do you really separate the two businesses, or is one really supporting the other and messing up the numbers. Know your numbers. There is lots more, but i will not bore you with the details. Get educated, and always keep an open mind. Lastly thanks again for this refreshing thread.


excellent post neige


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Neige summed it up well.

Just have to be flexible. If you have always done one type of work and that dries up, time to find another.

I think my whole point was to counter the argument of "they will be back"

Theyre not coming back. Or at least not for a long long time. They found a system that works for THEM. Its crap for us, but great for them.

Its like employees.

You put an ad up for $8 an hour and you are going to get a hundred applications.
Weed through those, you will get plenty of crap. But you will find guys that work out.

Or you can put an ad up for $25 an hour and get maybe a little better qualified people.
Still have crap. But you can probably get somebodys top guy from another company to consider it.

Will the $25 an hour guy be THAT much better?
Will he increase your sales and profit times three to be worth covering him?
My experience. I dont get that much better work out of a high paid guy vs. a regular pay guy.
Ill go through a LOT of $8 guys first before I consider going to top pay.
They do the job. Satisfies me. 

Look at a walmart lot right now. Theres not a one in the country that has snow on it.

So no decision is permanent.

They will have a contractor for all their lots.
All their lots will get plowed.
Contractors they have problems with.....which wont be ALL contractors.....they will replace.

But the job will get done at the price they want to pay.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Ill use the dealership example again.

Dealer quoted me $3,500 to replace a transmission in one of my truck with a rebuilt.

I found one online for $1,500. Paid my in-house part time mechanic one day to put it in.
$200 labor.
So I got the exact same job done for half price.

My mechanic made more money doing the job for me direct than if he did it through the dealer he works for.

WHY would I pay $90 an hour for it to be done in someone elses garage?

Warranty? Got one with the trans I bought.

The only risk I take is if its a bad trans paying my guy another $200 to do it again.

Where is the risk?


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

procut1;1068441 said:


> Ill use the dealership example again.
> 
> Dealer quoted me $3,500 to replace a transmission in one of my truck with a rebuilt.
> 
> ...


People are going to shop at walmart whether there is snow on their lot or not.

If they can save money and headaches....Its a no-brainer.
MOST problems with service will never get to a walmart boss. They will be handled by USM directly or on a low level.

Ill bet you, even though your local WM may have looked like crap all last year, if you ask a big boss at walmart how their snow is going with USM theyre going to tell you "GREAT"


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

As soon as all the "typical wal mart clientele" (if you know what I mean) start filing lawsuits cuz they slipped and fell and costs start rising again for losses, quality will come back.
Everyone wants to hit the lotto, slip and fall is one way to do it. 

All the beancounters sat and looked at their books for the last few years and said "hey, we're not paying out much on legal cases on the lot and we're spending more on keeping the snow cleared" (not that they ever stop and think they might be related), so they try to go the other way for a while. It will come back in a few years as the numbers go the other way.

Quality will come back.
it's a litigious society. 
Every 3rd commercial on the radio is some damn ambulance chaser.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

This is a great thread and to those who say it is redundant, I say we need more of them. Only an idiot would jump into a big contract without doing online homework and running across this stuff. Surely the nationals will burn through a lot of idiots, and there will be more, but eventually as stated, it will be slim pickens for the nationals when looking for chumps.

I agree that this is cyclical, and having finally worked directly for a Walmart after reading these threads for years, I can say that they DO care about appearance and performance and will pay market rate in some cases. They, along with the nationals, are currently reaping the benefits of the uptick in consolidation. The timing is perfect -abundant labor, tons of large equipment parked, etc... this will taper off. I spoke with a WM manager, and he was not happy with USM's snow performance. Though the average WM employee is little more than a warm body to them, managers are different. If they make stellar numbers, they are rock stars. If enough rock stars give feedback to corporate, they will eventually listen. The point is that the national arrangement has placed a hurdle in between the stellar manager, and his/her ability to provide the best possible shopping experience for their customer. This will catch up with them... it may take a few years, but I can already see the new "Local sourcing initiative" memo being written.

We have talked about the co-op idea, and there are some start-ups out there lacking traction.

We have talked about the trade association... obviously SIMA is the recognized source.

There are already companies like Vendormate, Compliance Depot, Registry Monitoring Service, which pre-screen insurance requirements and make sure vendors stay compliant.

It would seem to me that there might be a combination of these that would work best for all parties, IF it were able to keep from becoming that which it was created to combat.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

LoneCowboy;1068569 said:


> As soon as all the "typical wal mart clientele" (if you know what I mean) start filing lawsuits cuz they slipped and fell and costs start rising again for losses, quality will come back.
> Everyone wants to hit the lotto, slip and fall is one way to do it.
> 
> All the beancounters sat and looked at their books for the last few years and said "hey, we're not paying out much on legal cases on the lot and we're spending more on keeping the snow cleared" (not that they ever stop and think they might be related), so they try to go the other way for a while. It will come back in a few years as the numbers go the other way.
> ...


You're right about the lawsuits. But they wont matter. The only thing they are going to do is drive up insurance cost for the little guy.

This is another side of the coin I didn't talk about. Im sure with this new arrangements, Walmart, if not self insured, is saving a boatload of money on insurance. Just as usm probably pays less in insurance than some contractors here.

Its that pesky hold harmless and DEFEND clause that all you USM contractors sign.

To put it in simple terms. Here is what that says.

If something happens on the property due to snow and Walmart, USM, my company or all three of us are sued, I agree to provide and pay for the legal defense for all 3 of us.

That is EXACTLY what that means.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

good point
I forgot about that.

after those companies that sign that go out of business, then it will begin to cycle back.

do not EVER sign a contract like that.

Not a lawyer, and you should consult with your own lawyer, but some things are just obvious.


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## tutianoburgante (Feb 4, 2009)

*Usm*

Pro Cut I am 2 towns up from you I would love to have coffee with you someday.


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## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

I just heard that USM got Target stores


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

deicepro;1072503 said:


> I just heard that USM got Target stores


they've had target stores for quite a few years now.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

dayexco;1072505 said:


> they've had target stores for quite a few years now.


Indeed.......


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## RidetheSnowies (Dec 27, 2009)

Wow! I just got on this site to check out what people are saying about USM and Walmart. So far there is absolutely nothing positive about USM. There is however some positive experiences from vendors who have been working with other National companies. I have been in this business for only three years and have all my accounts with natiuonal company's and have nothing but positive money making experiences. Sure some people resist change and don't like that big box retailers are changing the way they handle their snow. But the real issue is that USM is a horrible company to work with. There is nothing good about working with them. We need to band together and resist working with them so Walmart fires them and another national company comes in and saves the day for not only us contractors but also for each Walmart store that they lose. There is no other National company that treats their vendors the way that USM treats theirs. I can't beleive someone would work with a company that has this bad of a reputation in this industry.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

RidetheSnowies;1078975 said:


> Wow! I just got on this site to check out what people are saying about USM and Walmart. So far there is absolutely nothing positive about USM. There is however some positive experiences from vendors who have been working with other National companies. I have been in this business for only three years and have all my accounts with natiuonal company's and have nothing but positive money making experiences. Sure some people resist change and don't like that big box retailers are changing the way they handle their snow. But the real issue is that USM is a horrible company to work with. There is nothing good about working with them. We need to band together and resist working with them so Walmart fires them and another national company comes in and saves the day for not only us contractors but also for each Walmart store that they lose. There is no other National company that treats their vendors the way that USM treats theirs. I can't beleive someone would work with a company that has this bad of a reputation in this industry.


What part of CO are you in? There are a few others on here from the area, and I was, formerly. Welcome.


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## ForestEdgeSnow (Aug 12, 2010)

I worked for USM last winter on an emegancy basis, I was the contractor that was called when the orginal contractor did not show up. It was the worst experince I have ever had. They still owe me $1000. They called me four times all for accounts they thought they had but really did not. So I plowed half a box before the realized it was not theres.


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## northernsweeper (Aug 26, 2004)

I will be adding a new thread later today about insurance companies. For now I thought I would throw this in the mix. USM had 1100 target stores nationwide last year. I have been told that they are down to only around 300 this year.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

ok guys, time to close this one out


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