# Im sure someone has some incite on this one



## exmark (Apr 24, 2007)

Snow shovelers. So every season I hire 50-60 snow shovelers. Out of that batch about 30-40 show up and we keep most and are always hiring more through out the winter season. Now I have always hired so many just to make sure we are covered each snow storm of course since we all know many shovelers don't like to show up when called out early in the morning. A little about our operation. We have around 50 commercial accounts businesses, HOA's and apartments. The business routes are generally a few four man crews. The HOA's and apartments I tend to send 10 man crews. Is what I am trying to figure out is if I actually need as many guys as I am hiring. Some of our HOA's are 150-200 unit HOA's. Now from personal experience a long storm a few years back. We ran through shovelers and I personally shoveled one of our larger HOA's with two other guys. Took us about 50 minutes to shovel with 2-3 inches of new snow on the ground. Im curious for guys who push HOA's. How many shovelers do you generally send to knock out a 150 unit complex? I feel as if theres more screwing around then work being completed. And if it takes another half hour with half the labor. Then obviously that benefits my company since we charge seasonal or per push rates for HOA's. Just searching for a little incite from guys with experience in snow removal at HOA's. Thank you much!


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

i went through this a few years ago, we where using 4 man crews. i told my guys if you can do it in the same time with 2 guys, ill give you $5.00 more per hour. It got done in the same amount of time.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

First understand I'm no where near that large, and wouldn't know where to begin trying to handle that many employees.

About 4 years ago I did an HOA as a sidewalk sub. It had 104 homes, but the walks were a bit longer than most. We shoveled a 2-3' clearing in front of the garage doors, the entry way, and the sidewalks around the subdivision. It took 4 of us around 2 hours. They contractor called and asked why it was "so fast", and long story short his guys before took almost 4 hours to complete.

I think it has to do with the people and who's doing the babysitting. With as many guys as you have, even if you only use half, I wouldn't think the man hours would change much because they same people would be doing the work. It also could feel a little overwhelming to them from shoveling HOAs with only a few guys.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

yeah 50-60 shovelers is insane! i only use 2 crews of 2...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Broncslefty7 said:


> yeah 50-60 shovelers is insane! i only use 2 crews of 2...


I ran 3 4 man crews one year and that was more of a headache than anything. Cut back after that....


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

Yeah we used to have a chain of driveways and we dropped them all. I never have to worry about plow trucks or machines but it's always the snow blowing crews that create the most trouble


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

How much do you pay these persons per hour?

Many times, the expression "you get what you pay for" rings threw and threw


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

I pay the drivers "crew lead" 20 and the others 15. Plow drivers also get 20, machine operators 25


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

You can't mechanize any of this work? 

Are we inciting a riot?


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

Ventrac to do the work of 30 men?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If not more...the inventor of snow says at least 10.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Broncslefty7 said:


> Ventrac to do the work of 30 men?


Defcon says it will


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

Broncslefty7 said:


> I pay the drivers "crew lead" 20 and the others 15. Plow drivers also get 20, machine operators 25


i would not get out of bed and drive the snow clogged roads before 7am for $15


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

leolkfrm said:


> i would not get out of bed and drive the snow clogged roads before 7am for $15


A lot of people say this, but then never say what they pay. What would your out of bed pay be, and what do you pay your shovelers?

I realize that may sound a little assh0le-ish, but that's not my intention. My apologies for that, but I'm just curious.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> If not more...the inventor of snow says at least 10.


Marks favorite snow contractor really pushes them:laugh:


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

And the 1025R also redefines how medium to large snow contractors can handle sidewalk work.

At a 35% savings compared to a Ventrac.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

John_DeereGreen said:


> And the 1025R also redefines how medium to large snow contractors can handle sidewalk work.
> 
> At a 35% savings compared to a Ventrac.


What about really small contractors who are afraid to dip more than their toe in the water?

By the way, my second accountant (the wife) does NOT like the advice you gave me to get a little bigger:laugh:. She doesn't really like that I do snow removal for multiple reasons, but mainly all the *****ing I do about employees. Her response was "And you MORE?!"


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> And the 1025R also redefines how medium to large snow contractors can handle sidewalk work.
> 
> At a 35% savings compared to a Ventrac.


35% savings????.....Thats a Large figure and 
claim from such a small human

Are these savings claims coming from the same accountant that says your a Million dollar snow contractor??


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Defcon 5 said:


> 35% savings????.....Thats a Large figure and
> claim from such a small human
> 
> Are these savings claims coming from the same accountant that says your a Million dollar snow contractor??


Coming from comparing a ventrac quote to a John Deere quote for same attachments. I can't remember the exact percentage but over a third cheaper for the 1025.


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

Our largest site for shovelling is 140 homes. One tractor plows roads and pulls driveways, on an average storm 6 shovellors will be done between 3-4 hours. That's shovelling infront of the garage doors, sidewalks up to the front steps that are around 15 feet long and then a small landing at the front door.

I agree, try to fine a piece of equipment that will speed things up.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

you can only get so close to a garage door with a machine, and there isnt a machine out there yet to do steps. I think back to the OP origional question, find some good guys, pay them good and you shouldnt have to hire any more people. 


Or just sub the walks part out. if your getting say 100k for the season, id rather pay a sidewalk sub like 10k to handle the walks for me. you eliminate 50 people and have way less head aches.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Broncslefty7 said:


> you can only get so close to a garage door with a machine, and there isnt a machine out there yet to do steps. I think back to the OP origional question, find some good guys, pay them good and you shouldnt have to hire any more people.


Totally agree, but that is why I axed if he could mechanize some of it.



Broncslefty7 said:


> Or just sub the walks part out. if your getting say 100k for the season, id rather pay a sidewalk sub like 10k to handle the walks for me. you eliminate 50 people and have way less head aches.


I would do this in a heartbeat if someone around here offered it. I'm a big believer in subs.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I would do this in a heartbeat if someone around here offered it. I'm a big believer in subs.


Bingo... Mark is spot on with this comment.

Your idea to sub out the walks is a great idea. The issue lies in who is going to do the work for the money offered.

Workers Comp will play a large part in it also.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

JMHConstruction said:


> First understand I'm no where near that large, and wouldn't know where to begin trying to handle that many employees.
> 
> About 4 years ago I did an HOA as a sidewalk sub. It had 104 homes, but the walks were a bit longer than most. We shoveled a 2-3' clearing in front of the garage doors, the entry way, and the sidewalks around the subdivision. It took 4 of us around 2 hours. They contractor called and asked why it was "so fast", and long story short his guys before took almost 4 hours to complete.
> 
> I think it has to do with the people and who's doing the babysitting. With as many guys as you have, even if you only use half, I wouldn't think the man hours would change much because they same people would be doing the work. It also could feel a little overwhelming to them from shoveling HOAs with only a few guys.


I find employees work hard even when left alone, they just can't manage the work. They do stuff in the wrong order, take false steps, and ultimately work harder to do less work. This is true even for good trained employees.

OP, every 150 or so drives run 3 men, 1 on an s70 or equivalent 2 shoveling steps and doing touch up.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

leolkfrm said:


> i would not get out of bed and drive the snow clogged roads before 7am for $15


Of course you wouldn't. Like most of us we are the owners/bosses. So ya no way anyone of us would for $15. We are talking about no skill shovel monkeys lol. I have guys that will get out of bed at any time of the night for $15. They need the money as they are seasonal workers too. Usually landscape or construction so they need something to supplement. I start guys at $15 per hour. I will throw them a bone if they do a great job. Ands if they come back the next year they are bumped to $20.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

^^ Rite


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I get oot of bed on a regular basis for less than minimum wage...since I'm the owner.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I get oot of bed on a regular basis for less than minimum wage...since I'm the owner.


I'm glad I'm not the only one. It ends up that way some times. But it's never the intention lol.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Wait a minute, I'm supposed to be turning a profit with this venture?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I get oot of bed on a regular basis for less than minimum wage...since I'm the owner.


$15/hr will soon be our min wage.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/minimum-wage-phase-in-labour-ontario-1.4257715


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> $15/hr will soon be our min wage.
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/minimum-wage-phase-in-labour-ontario-1.4257715


What's that in money here?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Randall Ave said:


> What's that in money here?


$1.76


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

$12.33 

$2.33 more than I make now...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I had a customer tell me a couple years ago they'd appreciate a better pricing structure because they're a non profit company.

Yeah, I'm non profit sometimes too. But not by choice. Was the response they got.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

ktfbgb said:


> $1.76


Crap, I didn't make that much money today.


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