# Do you think I handled this right?



## Guest (Feb 8, 2002)

I want to get your guy's opinions.
Just got an email from a friend of mine who lives in a small deveopment I plow. This will be a long post but if you can make it through it, let me know if you think I handled it right.

*Contract*

In consideration of the terms and conditions set forth herein below, the above identified CONTRACTOR, Gregory DaPron Enterprises, does herewith agree and contract to provide snow removal services for the 2001-2002 winter season to the OWNER, Tomax Farms Homeowners Assoc.

1. The term of this contract is SEASONAL, said season commencing on the date of execution of this contract and running through April 30, 2002.
2. SERVICES INCLUDED IN CONTRACT:
Snow removal from two (2) main lanes only. Not included in this contract are the eight (8) connected driveways associated with the Owner's property.
3. Pricing on a per 24 hour event basis:
4-8" $ 325.00
8-12"	$ 487.50
Snowfall over 12" $ 568.75

A 24-hour event will be the snowfall in a 24-hour period, in the Owner's property area, as
determined by NOAA weather and accessed at the following web site: 
http://iwin.nws.noaa.gov/iwin/md/climate.html

In the event of a snowfall with less than four inches (4") of total accumulation, contractor shall be
notified by Owner and or agent as to the necessity of snow removal services.

4. SERVICES NOT INCLUDED IN CONTRACT (ADDITIONAL COST ITEMS)
a. Removal of built up snow banks by front-end loader that impedes normal snow removal. Removal fee shall be charged at $150.00 per machine hour, this includes an operator.
b. Contractor will not be held liable for damage to plantings or concrete surfaces caused by de-icers and or snow removal operations. Contractor will exercise due care and caution while performing services so as to avoid damage to Owners property. 
c. Application of any anti-icers to the Owner's property. This service can be offered at the
Owner's request. Price to be determined upon request.

5. INSURANCE
Contractor shall provide and maintain property damage insurance of not less than $1,000,000.00
Contractor shall provide a certificate of insurance to Owner showing evidence of such coverage.
Owner accepts all liability for slip and fall accidents, and any motor vehicle accidents that are a result
of refusal of service or caused by negligence of pedestrians or motorists.
We reserve the right to remove our drivers from the road during extreme winter conditions for their safety. Extreme winter weather, excessive snowfall or blizzard conditions will be charged at our discretion. 
Accepted By:
________________________________________ ________________________________________
Gregory DaPron Enterprises Date Tomax Farms Homeowners Assoc. Date

*Email Receved*

Hey dude what's up? working hard? not too hard I hope! how does Kim like her
new fridge? Mom says she saw your house plans, (she just loves it) sounds
like your getting further and further. Next thing you know, you'll be moving
in!!!!
We went to the Faulkensteins for the super bowl and was surprised to find
out that you had charged for the plowing of the snow we got on the 19th of
January. I thought you had just done our lane as a quick swipe on your way
by as a favor to me. Not that I ever expect that but I truly believed that
and just never thought anything else about it and was going to thank you the
next time we talked. I thought about calling to make sure you weren't going
to plow but I got sidetracked and then thought there was no need.
Now, I must put on my suit and tie to talk business. This is non-personal
and stricktly business to business. Meaning, Tomax Farms to Greg Dapron
Enterprises.

Greg Dapron,
There seems to be a misunderstanding in the snow plowing contract between
Greg Dapron Enterprises and Tomax Farms. We were under the impression that
the lanes would not be plowed if there was just barely 4" of snow and the
forecast was for better weather. That was the reason we opted for the 4"
mark versus the 6" that we previously had with Dennis Reynolds. That allowed
you to move less snow at a time if a substantial amount was forecast. You
wanted to plow every 4", instead of waiting for the whole 6" or more which
would be harder on your equipment.
It looks to us that you are taking advantage of the snow removal contract
and plowing, per the contract, just to attain due payment. The forecast for
the last snow was 3"-6" and then sunny and 40 plus degrees for the next
several days. Without actually measuring the snow, we do not believe there
was quite 4" of snow on the ground when you plowed and the forecast was for
40 plus degrees and sunny for the next few days. We understand that you use
a "neutral" source to get your snow measurement from and we're not sure that
is fair. We don't want to physically measure the snow and we don't want to
have to call you when or if we need plowed. We want a professional
businessman to use his intuition to accomplish the contracted task. We may
need to amend the present contract, with your concurrence, to somehow
capture this grey area. Again, we thought that this was a "gentleman's
agreement" and would not need to be addressed in the contract.
I don't know what you want to do as a business but, we as your customer are
not happy. We feel that we were taken advantage of and are "theoretically"
bound by contract. But, if you were to reimburse us as much as you deem fit,
we would be happy to accept and will decide at that time whether to abolish
or amend the contract as necessary. We understand that you are a business
and when contracted, you have the right to perform your services. We also
understand that when contracted, that reserves a place in your schedule,
which could be filled with other customers, to plow our lanes. That is why
we chose a contract instead of an "as called" basis, hoping you would be
available when needed. On the other hand, a contract such as ours benefits
you as a company and allows you to obtain and pay for equipment at less
risk. I think together we can resolve this issue and prevent it from
happening in the future.
Please respond accordingly to email address and email address so
we can settle this issue soon.
Thanks,
Doug Moore
(Tomax Farms representative)

*Reply*

Doug,

No problem. I don't take it personal at all. Just trying to do my job 
I physically measured the snow before I came to plow, it was 5". I'm not
trying to take advantage of anybody, just trying to fulfill my contractual
agreement. Actually, I have never received a signed contract for this year.
So technically, I should not have plowed anyway. Please relay to the
Homeowners Association that they can disregard the invoice for 1/19/02. The
last thing I want is unhappy customers!

As you stated, in order to provide a legal and legitimate service to any
business or association, there are several ingredients necessary. First,
from the customer, a signed and binding contract. Second, from the
contractor, the equipment, manpower, time and proper insurance to fulfill
that contract. As the contractor, Gregory DaPron Enterprises incurs those
expenses regardless of whether services are rendered or not. That is just
part of being in business. Also, part of being in business, is billing when
the conditions of that contract are met.

I would be more than happy to renegotiate the terms of the contract to
something that is suitable to both parties, whether that be different
triggers, an Annual contract, etcetera. Please provide me with Tomax Farms'
ideas and we will work from there.

Thanks,

Greg DaPron

PS The fridge is great! Thanks for your help! Later 
---------------------------------------------------------

Well if you made it this far you are alright!!!!!

Thanks for any advice,

Greg


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## WHITE=GREEN (Jan 14, 2001)

you handled it alot "nicer" than i would of. if you hadnt shown up would the email read "where the hell where you when it snowed last week?" in my opinion you should have charged them something, maybe not the full amount, maybe 1/2 or 2/3, but at least enough to cover your expenses. think about it, it actually cost YOU money to plow THEIR lot. just my 2 cents.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2002)

Steve,

Thanks for the reply.

I guess what I was trying to imply by not charging them at all was this.

Because I didn't have a signed contrat(every year they are late getting it to me. Usually right before a big storm), I would be willing to disregard the invoice. But from this point further, what ever the contract ends up being, they should EXPECT to be billed precisly for whats in it. No "gentleman's agreement" or "it was right on the edge".

I think I'm going to push for an Annual.

Greg


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## 2401 (Feb 3, 2001)

After reading through the exchange of E-mails, I think you were more tactful than I might have been in the same situation.

In the contract: "In the event of a snowfall with less than four inches (4") of total accumulation, contractor shall be notified by Owner and or agent as to the necessity of snow removal services."

From their E-mail: "I thought about calling to make sure you weren't going to plow but I got sidetracked and then thought there was no need." 

So, seems to me they didn't say "don't plow". If it was the other way around, as in "I was going to plow your lane but got sidetracked and then thought there was no need" I can imagine the E-mail that would have been received.................................

Yes, I think you handled it in a tactful manner, much more so than I might have. Especially considering that's just about the first plowing all winter, isn't it?


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

I would have been nice,but made sure they knew that i expected full payment,as 5" of snow was there,well over your 4" trigger..Im sure by the next afternoon ,after time,and the sun had worked on it,there was less than 4",but at the time it stopped snowing there were 5".I would make sure they understood,that I would hope they would trust you on that measurement,if not,get local weather depths,see what they had,we had exactly 5 3/4" ,my residential price changes at 6",a few of my customers asked if they owed me for a 6" storm,I told them no,it wasnt 6".So they know I am honest.No one complained.Not to sound mean,but I feel you need to be paid,and i would try to replace this account next season,if they didnt pay.How are you going to stay in business giving away your services,especially this winter,you must need that money,on per push accounts,we have only had 2 plowables on residentials this season.I like my customers to be happy too,but you need to be firm here,IMO. You are nice guy!


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## litle green guy (Feb 25, 2000)

I think I would have charged them if not the full maybe 2/3 or something. If you mesured 5" then you did what you where supposed to right? What was the acuall officail snowfall?


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## TurfPlus (Dec 19, 2001)

Greg, 
That had to be the longest post I have ever read. I pretty much agree with everyone. John makes a great point....it was the owners responsibility to call, besides you have a 4 inch trigger and with 5 inches on the ground you were filling your contractual obligation. I would want full payment or at least 75% of it, keep them for this season and look to replace them for next season. I still can't see how they would think you were taking advantage of them??? Good luck with whatever you do.

John


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## PAPS Landscape (Jan 30, 2002)

You handled it nicer than i would have too, but thats the position you in being that he is your friend. Thats why i try VERY hard not to work for friends... I think you should cut them a break maybe charge like 1/2 - 2/3 or so, even though you were 100% right according to your contract specs. Next, i would come to strict terms and get an agreement signed. Question? why are your terms set a 4'' minimum?? did they want that?? Why not tell them that you HAVE to plow at 2'' and up?? Also i like how they client was supposed to call you and he got back-tracked... love that one.


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## PINEISLAND1 (Dec 21, 1999)

He would never have the guts to do that if you were not friends. He is taking advantage of the situation if you ask me. I would demand either the signed contract and payment, or payment and no contract-which means you walk. Either way, you deserve to be paid.


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## allabout (Dec 2, 2000)

Pienisland: You are so right , what happened to 2" trigger or even 1"


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## Ohiosnow (Sep 20, 2001)

*Greg*

You are way to nice, even if it's your BEST friend it was 5" of snow. And so what if it was to be in the 40's the next day. We had the same thing here on Monday we had to salt & then plow like crazy before it melted. We still had to salt Tuesday morning as it froze over night. Now I admit we plowed to make the $$$$$ but 2 guys I know didn't as they thought it would be taking advantage of their accounts, but guess what the slush froze over night & their accounts where screaming mad on Tuesday. You can't please everyone, you can only do your BEST.  And you did & should be paid. IMO


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## RCIPlow (Mar 3, 2001)

You asked for our thoughts, here's mine... NOOOOOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, can I be any clearer? Yes it is your fault for not getting the signed contract but if someone would have gotten in an accident since you didn't plow, they would be screaming at you. This crap about the temps going up and snow tapering off is just that, a load of crap. If they are such weather experts, then why dont they just pick which storms they want you to clear? While they are at it, ask for the daily loto numbers as well. Sounds to me that as most associations go, see other related post, someones butt got caught in the sling. So now they want to try to correct the situation. It is there fault for not getting the contract stated and agreed to how they want it, not yours, other then not getting it signed. You did them a FAVOR! Favors dont pay the bills. We all do this at times, its a judgement call, you did right by them and now your friend or brother in law is trying to stick you? I would tell them that the contract is to be signed as is, or find another contractor. You will not be losing anything from them, since they already are questioning you. I wouldnt have given them a nickle off the price, but hey thats just me. I guess if it snowed 6 inches then rained for 8 hours they would say "Why did you plow, the rain would have washed it away?" And finally , the guy who sent you the email was not professional. He should have sent you a seperate email stating their concerns, not mixed family/personal chat into it. These are just my thoughts, but who knows?
First time shame on you, Second time shame on me!!!!!!


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## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

You handled it very well but I still would of charged them something just for expenses anyway.And when he said it would be 40 degrees out yes it might of been but that night it would of froze up and been very bad for driving then you would get another good email.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Dockboy - not meaning an attack on your friend, but I had a hard time following his arguments and reasoning. He said the trigger was 4" and it snowed 5" - you should plow. The fact that it may or may not warm up enough to melt is irrelevant. He said he didn't measure (you did), so should be no argument. He wants you to use your judgement. You did and now he's saying you should have done differently? I have all verbal aggreements but if anyone did that to me, it would be the last time. Yes, I've had people want to change triggers etc, but they paid for what I'd done up to that point. I too think he is "using" your friendship - he'd never try that in a strictly professional relationship.


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

Greg your friend might be able to save the DOT a lot of money too,maybe he should E-mail them,and tell them not to plow too,since it will warm up the next day anyway,they could save a lot of money.And god forbid his house caught fire in the night,the slightlest hills,and those fire trucks aret worth anything as far as traction,your selling him access,and safety.If you didnt plow,and it froze,they'd want to to hang you.You did the right thing,at the right time,and you should get paid,in full.Remember some people will never be satisfied too.No sense giving away your services trying,when you could be making money somewhere else making someone happy,and actually making some money too.


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## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

John you are right .he should get paid in full .and they would hang him if it was not plowed and it tured to ice.they all want the service with out paying.


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## CT18fireman (Nov 30, 2000)

John our trucks have no problem getting through some heavy snow. Lots of weight and chains make a world of difference. I agree though. I cannot beleive a private development association would want to risk leaving that much snow on the road before any kinds of service. At the first flake we make an application of salt or sand. After an inch plowing begins. Leaving that much and waiting for it to melt is crazy. What happens after it half melts during the warm day then refreezes at night??? Can you say ice? I would not want to deal with it.

Get the contract signed and get paid for your work.


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## PINEISLAND1 (Dec 21, 1999)

unless I preapply Magic, my accounts would be a mess if I let people drive over even a couple inches. The snow pack wouldnt come up even if it did get to 40 degrees for a while each afternoon. I woudnt even agree to a 4 inch trigger around here.


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

I have an elderly woman who occassionaly calls to say her driveway didn't need plowed, hinting at she didn't want to pay for that job. Her house is at the top of a steep hill and she lives alone. I always explain that I have her best interests in mind, not that I'm looking to take her money. Even though she has no plans to go out, she may be in need of emergency services and they will need access as John mentioned. If she gets persistant, I politely suggest that if she is not happy with my service that she consider hiring another contractor. I'm still plowing there after 22 years.

My point is you had your customer's best interests in mind and should be paid for your service. We aren't talking about a $20 driveway here. If you are concerned about charging full price, perhaps a compromise could be met as the other have suggested, but you should at least get your expenses out of it.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2002)

Thanks for all the replies guy's 

My wife(Kim) is sitting here reading all your post's and agreeing with everyone of you!!! She 's saying "cut their a$$ loose and have a nice winter" LOL

I'll see where this leads.

Rob, yes this was the first billable snow fall of the year.

little green guy, The official snowfall for the area was 5.1"

PAPS Landscape, They originaly didn't want to be plowed untill 6". I explained to them I would only do a 4" min. trigger.


PINEISLAND1, My wife agree's with you 100%

Thanks again for all your support and opinions. It's one of the many reasons I enjoy this site 

Greg


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I just re-read your post and realized this was a $325 plowing. I don't know about there, but here that is a significant "push". Hardly could be considered a "quick swipe". I'd say save the friendship if you want, but refer them to someone else for plowing. I just think there's more trouble with this one. I usually pay attention to that "bad taste in my mouth". Last time I didn't was about three years ago with the building contractor of our house. Beat me out of several thousand dollars  .


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## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

I agree with kim, dump 'em. This nickel and dimming crap is only going to get worse. BTW if my accounts had a 6" trigger, I would have plowed an average of 1-2 times a year for the past 5 years. Good luck.


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## Highpoint (Oct 19, 2000)

*I don't think so!*

Dockboy. Would you mind telling us how long it took you to clear that snow? Around here, Just about everyone switches to a "per hour rate" for anything over 4 inches. We found that flat rates on deeper snowfalls just ended up costing us. That owner is a stupid, stupid person! not clearing under 4 inches is nuts. IF that job was in this area. It would be bid a flat rate up to 4 inches with a MINIMUM 2 inch trigger. Most are 1". We would plow the property regardless of depth before 7am to allow for safe passage of residents and then return around 4pm to do the same. Time of storm, day may have some bearing. Any way. You should have charged them! I would not have them as an account set up the way it is. Anyway. Good luck.


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

We only switch to per hour on seasonals during a blizzard,and thats at my discretion.The entire blizzrd will pay us hourly above the the price of the season.For all commercial per push we charge up to 4",then per inch.We dont let snow accumulate on commercials accounts thoug,we clean it ever 3-4" at the most.i dont even wantto try to explain why i need to make 190 bucks an hr with a truck,its easier to charge the ther appropriote amount,and if they want to time me then they can figure it out.


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

I won't take an account if I can't have a 3" trigger or less, around here lesser amounts tend to melt off by the next storm, but over that ice begins to build up making plowing difficult and can cause a stuck truck. My two commercial accounts I plow at any amount to keep them clean, the bulk of my work is residential though.


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## WHITE=GREEN (Jan 14, 2001)

dockboy, 
heres another thought. rewrite the contract with something stating that "Doug" is responsible for notifiying/calling you when plowing or salting is to begin during EVERY EVENT. let it be his responsibility to make the call. this way HE can wake up every half hour thru the night to walk outside in the freezing cold, half asleep with his slippers on, LIKE WE DO ALL WINTER, and see if there is enough to justify calling you to plow or salt while you are sound asleep. let him watch the weather forcast the day before to see if it will melt or not. put all the burden on his shoulders and he will, after a few weeks of no sleep have a whole new respect for what you/we do.


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## TurfPlus (Dec 19, 2001)

LOL. Thats a great idea Steve. I think Doug would have enough of it in a week. 

Greg, How long did that "quick swipe" take you if you don't mind me asking?


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## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

Steve, that is a good idea he would sick of doing that quick for sure.Every one thinks that is snows and we just get up and plow they don't relize that we never get any sleep before the event .


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## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

Wow I cant believe after all the discussions in the past that anyone would even consider a 4"+ trigger account. That just leaves the door open for problems. IF in fact you did recieve 5" of snow( and I have no reason to doubt you) then by all means charge them accordingly, or drop them. If they dotn want to pay for your services in an extremely light snow fall season, how are they going to be to deal with in a season when you have above average or even close to average snow fall. They will be crying and moaning every storm, looking to beat you down on pricing. Set the presedent now, show them that you are a pro, and deserve to get payed for your work.
As a resident of that complex it must be in the bylaws that you need a SUV, cause with a 4-6" trigger you will need it just to get home.
Next time it snows, just leave it sit till they call, let it get packed way down, and then just scrape the top and leave. Then they might get the idea that maybe you know best.
Dino


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## plowjockey (Dec 3, 2000)

The problem is that this guy sounds like he wouldn't get up during the night, or might get sidetracked again. This would result in you getting called out with enough snow to make the job a lot worse than if it was handled at the appropriate time and depth.

Just my $.02

Bruce


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2002)

Thanks again guy's 

They all have SUV's and trucks. They had no plowing contract for about 5 years. Then about 5 years ago, we got dumped on by a Nor'easter with about 24". They had to hire someone with a loader to come in and dig them out to a tune of $3000. They struck a contract with him after that to plow when they received 6" or more. The problem was he would never show up.

They approached me but I told them the min trigger I would do is 4". One push of the Development takes approx. 1- 1.25 hrs. On a typ. 4-8" storm, I would push at least twice, hence my pricing.

On this snow, I only had to push once. I think that's why they are unhappy. Oh well!!!! Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.

I'm leaning towards offering them an Annual. If that's not suitable, I'm going to suggest they find another contractor.

Thanks again for everyones support and comments

Greg


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## JCurtis (May 14, 2001)

*Your Friend is NO friend...*

This is one reason I never do any work for friends... it always causes problems.

He is taking advantage of your friendship.... You have a contract and a very detailed one at that. They should pay you, and not question the trigger amount.

If you want to keep them as a customer, thats up to you. Personally, I wouldn't and if your "friend" is really a friend he will understand why you dropped them.

Speaking of Dropping things .... Drop that 4" trigger to at the very least a 2" trigger.

Your contract entitles you to full payment IMHO ( in my humble opinion)


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## Rob (May 15, 2001)

*my .02*

I agree with all of the posts, but mostly with JCurtis. The guy is totally taking advantage of your freindship. Hois note starts out with some personal BS, then hammers you about business. A bit unprofessional. At least send two emails. Secondly, I'm not sure why he didn't just call you to discuss, it sounds like he is trying to get things in writing so that he can later hold you to a potentially informal agreement made via email.
The best bet here, in my opinion, would be to drop the account. After two or three small storms, you're not going to be able to get it clean when the (if) big one comes in anyway. Then they may want to test out your insurance when someone has an accident.

Just my opinion,


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2002)

Thanks again guy's 

They all have SUV's and trucks. They had no plowing contract for about 5 years. Then about 5 years ago, we got dumped on by a Nor'easter with about 24". They had to hire someone with a loader to come in and dig them out to a tune of $3000. They struck a contract with him after that to plow when they received 6" or more. The problem was he would never show up.

They approached me but I told them the min trigger I would do is 4". One push of the Development takes approx. 1- 1.25 hrs. On a typ. 4-8" storm, I would push at least twice, hence my pricing.

On this snow, I only had to push once. I think that's why they are unhappy. Oh well!!!! Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.

I'm leaning towards offering them an Annual. If that's not suitable, I'm going to suggest they find another contractor.

Thanks again for everyones support and comments

Greg


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## DaveO (Dec 21, 1999)

*Friends and business*

Greg,

You responded tactfully. I also feel you were too nice, but understand why you acted so.

If the event was 5", I wouldn't care what the forecast was for the next couple of days. Chances are (normally) that it would freeze up. And if it does, it's YOUR falt. I have a commercial with a 2" trigger. If the forecast is for 40 degrees the next day, I won't plow it...but this is 2" NOT 5". The owner leaves it to my discretion, and I have been fortunate in calling it correctly so far. But a 5" event could takes many days to melt, and we all know how quick the weather can change around here(New England).

My recommendation. Hopefully we will get a nice wet/heavy event before the season is over. When/If we do, I would wait till you are called. Then I would politely inform them not to worry, it is going the melt. The forecast is calling for 60 degree temperatures in the future and it will all be gone.......in JUNE!!! And replace them with a more desirable customer, and don't forget to tell your friend it was just a business decision.

Dave


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## DYNA PLOW (Oct 14, 2000)

all i can say is wow!! you don't have a signed contract which is the first problem, so they don't have to pay you if they don't want to. however you did do the service and their was 5" so you certainly did not take advantage of them. i don't give a damn what the weather temps will rise to the next couple days if we get 5" you can bet your a$$ it better be plowed around my parts or the phone will fall off the wall from the constant ringing.
stand your ground...at least get some $$.
dan


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Dock Boys Problem*

In OHIO if the person gains something from something you did for them they are to pay for that service, contract or not that is the law. This guy is not a nice person. The 4 inch snow limit was met so you plow. The customer got 5 + inches of snow removed so they PAY. This is just another case of someone wanting to get something for nothing.

Get money, contract signed or tell him to find someone else. There are other people who want good service and are willing to pay. If he is friend.. find new friend.

Dave 
PS if customer is a jerk we drop them. Gettin to old to deal with jerks. 29 yrs of snow plowing.


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## sam grinold (Jan 2, 2002)

Sounds to me like a bunch of penny pinching cheapos. Im surprised your friend even sent the e-mail . Id tell him sorry you have to put the business suit on and tell every other operator to steer clear of that association. Get the entire ammount owed to you and fire them. Hopefully next year they will haved learned a leason after theres a foot on the ground and franticly looking for someone to clear them out. Consider this a learning experience after all thats what being in business is . Good luck and thanks to all for letting me vent , Im easily irratated this time of year.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2002)

Just got an email from my buddy. I agree with everyone here that he didn't handle it in a "professional" matter. He's just your basic "good ole boy" and the kind of friend that would do anything for you(and has for me in the past). I truely believe he was caught in the middle.

*EMAIL*

Hey,
Sorry for the misunderstandings. I relayed to the association that you were
completely in the right and just trying to do what you thought we wanted.
Aaron said he had already sent the check. I told him that you would subtract
half of this bill from the next one. That seemed to make everyone happy.
Thats fair you think? I don't want you to get stiffed. As far as the
contract, I'll have to discuss that with the others and get a draft of the
changes. I will then send that to you for approval so we can get it signed.
Its funny how some people just want to ***** and then when confronted with
the truth they just blow it off like it wasn't a big deal. Oh well, that's
what makes the world go round! huh? Again, thanks for understanding and not
taking this personal. Most people don't want to recommend friends for
business. They say that friendship will always get in the way with business.
I don't believe that at all and will always recommend friends for business.
I hate seeing people I know pay strangers for work.
I ordered an aluminum rear cover and transmission cover for the truck from
yourcovers.com. They're not as nice as Mag-Hytec but alot cheaper. I also
got a pillar guage pod for the trans and rear temp guages. Trying to get
ready for camper towing season. Hows your tranny been?
Later,
Doug
___________________________________

Regardless of how they revise the contract, I am letting them know that it is either a Annual with payment due in advance, or find another contractor.

Thanks again for everyones comments and suggestions. You guy's are great  

Greg


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## Charles (Dec 21, 1999)

I dont even plow snow and this thread pisses me off LOL. They realized you were in the right and your "friend" volenteers for you to cut your price in 1/2 for the next plow. Your "friend" insults you by saying in the first place that you were taking advantage of the contract by trying to make money and just doing your job. 
Get that check and cash it as fast as you can and f your "friend" and the SUV he road in on.
Hey dude you are a professional and did your job correctly and he is dissing you to think that you are below him and will work for free. He sounds like a bsing con man to me and not worthy of your friendship.
How will you ever plow this job with the confidence that you will be paid without a hassle? How can you trust them? They sure dont trust you.


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## Ground Master (Feb 11, 2002)

nothing personal, but I would not consider this guy a friend. 

Charge the full amount, if payment not received as specified in contract, eliminate that job from your snow list. 

As I see things, there are only so many plow jobs one can do. There are many in need and willing to pay.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Dockboy, as a suggestion - I think you need to deal directly with the association president. Your friend may be "caught in the middle", but you are definately being treated unprofessionally and like a child. Besides being cheated out of your money. You don't need this condescending attitude, either.


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## phillyplowking1 (Dec 19, 2001)

i agree with mick


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## plowjockey (Dec 3, 2000)

Might be, that it would be a good idea to print this thread with the answers to let your "friend" see what those in the business think of his tactics.

Just my $.02 worth.

Bruce


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## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

Greg,e-mail this link to your friend,see what he thinks of it.On one hand he's trying to stay on middle ground,on the other your running a business,and need to put your truck where it wil make the most money in a storm,since you only have 6-9 hr to get most of the work done,afte it stops,i feel you need to make the most of your truck's time.


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## digger242j (Nov 22, 2001)

Honestly, if it's a 4" trigger how good of a contract can it be anyway? 

If there's 4" or more you're going to be taking somewhat (or a whole lot) longer to do everything else you have to do. Unless you're hurting for work this one seems like one of those "nuisance" accounts whether they're messing with you or not. 

Please, take the following as "constructive" criticism. I wouldn't email the link to your friend--not before I asked the board administrator if I could go back and edit out some specifics. If I were your friend, I *might* be offended that you chose to air your dispute so publicly--not the dispute itself, but the specific names and location. How would you feel if (before the two of you got it straightened out) he posted something on some consumer oriented board about how *you*, (insert Company Name, and Owner's Name here) tried to bill for something other than what you'd agreed on?


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2002)

Thanks again guy's for all the replys

Just an update.

Received a check for the full invoice and CASHED it 

I spoke with the HA president. Explained to him that if they wished to have my services in the future, they would need to sign and pay an Annual contract with a 2" trigger. I explained to him the pros and con's of each. I told him that with a 2" Annual, they would get a better level of service than with a 4" per push and it would be much easier for them to budget. Basically, if it snowed I would be there. I also explained that there would be a blizzard clause(to cover me) and a minimum event clause(to cover them). As to the min event clause, I over-emphazised to him that even if it didn't snow, the max they could receive in a refund was half of the Annual invoice.


As for my friend. You guy's were pretty rough on him but I understand why. He's still a friend of mine and a great guy. The original "business" part of his email was a draft from the President. I told my friend and the Pres. that any further corespondance regarding our business association needed to come from the Pres. and no one else!!

You guy's are AWSOME!!!!!!

Greg


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Good deal that it worked out for you . Part of everyone being hard on your friend is not knowing him and being strictly objective. Sounds like it's going to actually be a pretty good account.


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## JCurtis (May 14, 2001)

*Whoa Greg !!!*

I wouldn't offer "half" of an annual contract as a refund if it didn't snow a minimum snowfall figure.

What I would do would be offer to give the association "CREDIT" for the following season. That credit could be a minimum of 25 % up to a maximum 50% of the annual contract paid for the season without hitting the snowfall minimum.

Money is better in your pocket than theirs and they feel that they are getting a good deal. Not only that but is sort of ties them to you for an additional season.

Think about it !!!


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## timm9 (Dec 19, 2001)

Lifes experiences are always "very interesting" to say the least. I have been self employed and dealing with clients and customers since I was 19 yrs old... I'm 43 now. The one thing you learn early on in life is that there is some "business" not worth having. When I get the clients like your "friend", I have learned to get as far away as possible. If you look back in their history you will find a "trail" of service providers that have been used & abused by these people. Life is way to short and there are plenty of great customers who will appreciate you and refer you to others. As for "favors".... I do them. I do them for the little old lady who tries to pay me extra because I was there quickly, or because I know she is living on "peanuts" each month. I do them for the guy who sends me lots of business and never, never asks for a discount or kick back. I do them for the guy next door (true story) who had open heart surgery last week. 

I would have done exactly as you did. You were polite, professional, and politically correct. Now do the best thing for your business and your family. Find one of the many clients out there that will appreciate you for your hard work and talent, and let some other poor fool have that association. Mark my words, you will hear later that they pulled the same game on him.


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## JRDabs (Jun 8, 2003)

I think you definately handled it in a polite and curteous manor. 

Try this on them, You are the one that is assuming the liability! If they want to make the call on when to plow then have them sign a wavier that states that you are not liable for any slip and fall that occurs until it hits your trigger limit. 

I would also specify in your contract that you will be using a weather service to measure the per inch increments or you can make arrangements to meet with the HOA manager at 3am to verify the measurement. Develop a system that works best for you. 

I would also work into your contract that you are a snow and ice management professional and have the discression to plow at any given time when you feel the site conditions are hazardous and pose a risk to the residents of the HOA.


This is a big problem in our industry. We have owners and managers that want to dictate how and when we do our business. We have to educate our customers on what we do and why we do it. We are in the business of risk management. Some managers understand that and some only see $$$. They do not understand the cost of insurance, the overhead cost of litigation that follows a slip and fall claim. 

Hope this helps a bit


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## nocando (Apr 23, 2004)

*Long Message*

Something I don't understand and didn't see in any answers
If trigger was 4" why was contract start at 3"-5" 
should have been 4" - 6" and up


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## lwnmwr1 (Mar 20, 2003)

have you ever been plowed?! i believe you have!! you have everything to lose and nothing to gain from a customer like that. if someone had an accident that dya on the road do you think they would have sent you that e-mail?? i think not. with friends like that...


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Do you all realize this thread is over 2 1/2 years old? Most of the people who posted and replied are no longer here.


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## Bolts Indus. (Dec 22, 2003)

Don't look now.


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## fisher42 (Aug 11, 2004)

some guy i knew was plowing and he got into an arguement with the man who was incharge of the business. he just got out of his truck and jail raped him.


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## fisher42 (Aug 11, 2004)

*eggs*

that was a true story


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## North Country (Nov 14, 2003)

What? - My God!.....


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## fisher42 (Aug 11, 2004)

*jail rape*

i'm sure it wasn't pretty, but he had to do wut he had to do. nowdays yelling at the person doesn't get anywhere.


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## fisher42 (Aug 11, 2004)

*hard punishment*

the guy never gave him any trouble after he did that to him.


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