# Bidding Apartment Buildings



## Jsw98

So basically I have the opportunity to bid for 25 separate buildings they're all pretty reasonable they will all be getting salt supplied by the owners of the buildings and it has to be all push because they can't have any noise In the mornings, I Will be paying guys $20 an hour for shoveling and job needs to be done in four hours, each storm, they are all within quarter or half mile between each other, I was going to bid a flat rate of $30 per push for each building Am I under cutting myself or is that reasonable? Attached is a couple photos of what most of the buildings look like


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## ktfbgb

Um, how would that work if you are paying multiple guys $20 per hour, but you charge a flat rate of $30 per push. You are going to be paying the apartment complex a lot of money to move their snow.


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## Randall Ave

ktfbgb said:


> Um, how would that work if you are paying multiple guys $20 per hour, but you charge a flat rate of $30 per push. You are going to be paying the apartment complex a lot of money to move their snow.


I was thinking the same thing, or I read it wrong. Your going to plow and shovel that for $30.00?


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## Freshwater

$30 × 25 buildings in 4hrs.


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## Unraveller

Freshwater said:


> $30 × 25 buildings in 4hrs.


So how many guys will be shoveling?


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## BossPlow2010

You're not going to be doing 7.5 buildings an hour with one truck, and you're certainly not going to be push spreading salt four 30 buildings in four hours.


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## Jsw98

It would be a crew of 3-4 guys, less than half need salt, yes $30 per building, over 2in of snow, basically Its easyier to bid a flat rate vs, per property so if one apartment has a lot more sidewalk than one the extra $$ from a small apartment


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## Jsw98

Covers the extra time it takes


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## Unraveller

Jsw98 said:


> It would be a crew of 3-4 guys, less than half need salt, yes $30 per building, over 2in of snow, basically Its easyier to bid a flat rate vs, per property so if one apartment has a lot more sidewalk than one the extra $$ from a small


You should be earning at least $50 per man hour and additional $100 per truck hour.

So assuming your time estimates are right, and I doubt they are, you should be charging at least $60 per push. And that's barely breaking even


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## ktfbgb

I don’t touch anything for less than $85 even if it only takes 1 minute. That’s my minimum. Doesn’t mean it should be your minimum. But I think that’s a whole lot of liability, 25 separate sites = 25 separate properties that could sue you, for $750 per push. We are lacking a lot of information but taking it at face value you would be undercutting yourself big time. If it were me I would be at $85 for the plow, $45 per shoveler, plus bagged salt minimum of $10. So that puts me at $140 per push per property. That’s assuming one shoveler can do it in 1 hour.


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## BossPlow2010

ktfbgb said:


> I don't touch anything for less than $85


Still cheaper than an escort!


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## Jsw98

Appreciate the response this is the first year my company will be doing snow removal so I’m just trying to figure out how long It takes but its hard tell when we haven’t shoveled yet to see how long a house takes etc, At first i thought $750 was great but i now realize thats horrible. I don’t wanna over bid because it would be essential for me to get good references and it would be a good connection that I could do every season


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## Randall Ave

It would help if you put your location, average snow falls, etc. Unless I missed it.


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## BossPlow2010

Jsw98 said:


> Appreciate the response this is the first year my company will be doing snow removal so I'm just trying to figure out how long It takes but its hard tell when we haven't shoveled yet to see how long a house takes etc, At first i thought $750 was great but i now realize thats horrible. I don't wanna over bid because it would be essential for me to get good references and it would be a good connection that I could do every season


You should go sub for someone who needs drivers and sidewalk crews 
Learn the ins and outs of snow and ice management


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## Avalanche 2500

Have a plan of where to put or remove the snow ?? Clear the swinging gates, patio's = A lot of work = $$


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## MSsnowplowing

I hate the new format, what state are you in? 
What is your average snow fall every season?

If you paying a guy $20 an hour to shovel then you should be charging the client $30 to $40

4 guys $20 an hour for 4 hours will cost you $320.00

How long to plow each property? 
Are you plowing it or are you paying someone to plow it?

Also don't forget you will need GL insurance, W.C. insurance since your using employees and supplying the equipment.

If you are trusting the owner to put down product you better put that in your contract that they are doing that and as such you will assume no liablity for any slip and falls.
You will still get sued of course but your lawyer can use that.


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## Broncslefty7

5k per season per property for those. Up to 60”. Call backs = 95 per hour. After 60”. 65 per inch per property


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## John_DeereGreen

If you're paying your help $20 an hour and charging the client $30 an hour for them, you're losing money.


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## Randall Ave

John_DeereGreen said:


> If you're paying your help $20 an hour and charging the client $30 an hour for them, you're losing money.


I don't think a lot of the guys starting out have any idea of what the operating cost are to do jobs like this.


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## Jsw98

You’re right it’s very difficult but luckily you guys are here helping me out, so at least I can figure it out and not make a fool of myself, undercut the industry, Im in Colorado it varies a lot I would say 10 to 20 events total, but like last year there was maybe only 8 events


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## JustJeff

Jsw98 said:


> Appreciate the response this is the first year my company will be doing snow removal so I'm just trying to figure out how long It takes but its hard tell when we haven't shoveled yet to see how long a house takes etc, At first i thought $750 was great but i now realize thats horrible. I don't wanna over bid because it would be essential for me to get good references and it would be a good connection that I could do every season


Your bid price has absolutely nothing to do with getting references for future work. They will either give you the contract or not.


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## ktfbgb

Jsw98 said:


> You're right it's very difficult but luckily you guys are here helping me out, so at least I can figure it out and not make a fool of myself, undercut the industry, Im in Colorado it varies a lot I would say 10 to 20 events total, but like last year there was maybe only 8 events


You need to look at the NWS historical averages for your area. What happens year to year is not how to bid snow. Use official averages until you get several years of your own data. I record notes for every single snow event we get.


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## Jsw98

I see


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## Randall Ave

Big state, snowfalls vary. Where are you.


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## Jsw98

Denver, after doing some research they say the average Snowfalls are 30 but ive never seen it snow that much in the 6 years ive lived here,


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## Freshwater

Jsw98 said:


> Denver, after doing some research they say the average Snowfalls are 30 but ive never seen it snow that much in the 6 years ive lived here,


@BUFF he's in Denver.

Can you post a sat pic?


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## Jsw98

A sat pic of the area or denver


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## Dogplow Dodge

Jsw98 said:


> A sat pic of the area or denver


A satellite view of the area you are asking about ????


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## BossPlow2010

Dogplow Dodge said:


> A satellite view of the area you are asking about ????


There's a big Marijuana cloud hovering over the city on every satellite image


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## Jsw98

Haha,


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## Jsw98

It would be too difficult to do satellite picture because all the buildings are about a quarter-mile to half mile between each other, Basically they’re all managed by a property management company but Owned by multiple owners


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## Jsw98

They’re all within 2 to 3 mile service area


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## Unraveller

Jsw98 said:


> They're all within 2 to 3 mile service area


Do a satellite pic of ONE of the buildings.


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## Jsw98

Kind of off-topic but also wondering what is going to be the best commercial spreader my budget is $300-$500, im thinking lesco, hotshot, snow ex


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## BossPlow2010

Jsw98 said:


> Kind of off-topic but also wondering what is going to be the best commercial spreader my budget is $300-$500, im thinking lesco, hotshot, snow ex


Get a v box go sub for someone else


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## Freshwater

Jsw98 said:


> A sat pic of the area or denver


No dude not Denver. Post a sat pic of each Building to be done. That's 25 pics, might take 30 min to do. I can't imagine each Building/lot will be the same price.

Your not push spreading 25 lots.


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## MSsnowplowing

John_DeereGreen said:


> If you're paying your help $20 an hour and charging the client $30 an hour for them, you're losing money.


I agree if he is only charging $30 an hour for all of them.

But 4 guys $20 an hour each and 4 hours is $320 paid out.

But 4 guys $30 an hour each and 4 hours is $480 charged to the client, $160 profit.

Say 10 bags of salt at $6 dollars a bag your cost $60, charge the client $15 dollars a bag and you make $90 profit

So total profit $250 x 25 buildings is $6,250 for say a 3" storm not counting the plowing

For the plowing would say it takes only 15 20 minutes to plow it -(doesn't look that big in the pic) charge $100 x 25 is another $2,500.00

$8,750 for a 3" storm and increase the pricing for every 3 inches, and if you get 8 3" storms you make $70,000 after paying off your guys and product.

Deduct say $20,000 for gas, insurance, misc... and you take home $50 grand

I would jump on a contract like that in a heartbeat.


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## John_DeereGreen

MSsnowplowing said:


> I agree if he is only charging $30 an hour for all of them.
> 
> But 4 guys $20 an hour each and 4 hours is $320 paid out.
> 
> But 4 guys $30 an hour each and 4 hours is $480 charged to the client, $160 profit.


Have you never heard of something called "labor burden" and "overhead recovery"??

I would like to see any legitimate company in this industry be able to pay someone $20 an hour, then bill their labor out at $30 an hour and make money. Figure labor burden as 10%. There's $4 an hour. Leaving you $6 an hour to cover your overhead recovery and have (non existent in this case) profit.


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## Randall Ave

MSsnowplowing said:


> I agree if he is only charging $30 an hour for all of them.
> 
> But 4 guys $20 an hour each and 4 hours is $320 paid out.
> 
> But 4 guys $30 an hour each and 4 hours is $480 charged to the client, $160 profit.
> 
> Say 10 bags of salt at $6 dollars a bag your cost $60, charge the client $15 dollars a bag and you make $90 profit
> 
> So total profit $250 x 25 buildings is $6,250 for say a 3" storm not counting the plowing
> 
> For the plowing would say it takes only 15 20 minutes to plow it -(doesn't look that big in the pic) charge $100 x 25 is another $2,500.00
> 
> $8,750 for a 3" storm and increase the pricing for every 3 inches, and if you get 8 3" storms you make $70,000 after paying off your guys and product.
> 
> Deduct say $20,000 for gas, insurance, misc... and you take home $50 grand
> 
> I would jump on a contract like that in a heartbeat.


If I read it right. It isn't each building gets four hours. They all need to be done in four hours.


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## Freshwater

MSsnowplowing said:


> I agree if he is only charging $30 an hour for all of them.
> 
> But 4 guys $20 an hour each and 4 hours is $320 paid out.
> 
> But 4 guys $30 an hour each and 4 hours is $480 charged to the client, $160 profit.
> 
> Say 10 bags of salt at $6 dollars a bag your cost $60, charge the client $15 dollars a bag and you make $90 profit
> 
> So total profit $250 x 25 buildings is $6,250 for say a 3" storm not counting the plowing
> 
> For the plowing would say it takes only 15 20 minutes to plow it -(doesn't look that big in the pic) charge $100 x 25 is another $2,500.00
> 
> $8,750 for a 3" storm and increase the pricing for every 3 inches, and if you get 8 3" storms you make $70,000 after paying off your guys and product.
> 
> Deduct say $20,000 for gas, insurance, misc... and you take home $50 grand
> 
> I would jump on a contract like that in a heartbeat.


No the profit is 250 all total for a 3"storm. Not 250 x 25 buildings. We'd all take that.


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## MSsnowplowing

John_DeereGreen said:


> Have you never heard of something called "labor burden" and "overhead recovery"??
> I would like to see any legitimate company in this industry be able to pay someone $20 an hour, then bill their labor out at $30 an hour and make money. Figure labor burden as 10%. There's $4 an hour. Leaving you $6 an hour to cover your overhead recovery and have (non existent in this case) profit.


Disregard, someone said it was only $250 profit for all 25 buildings, so the point is moot.
Was on the wrong track for those numbers, I thought it was per building.
As for the overhead and labor it all depends on the company like I say below.

Well it depends on the company.
Company A overhead recovery could be a whole lot lower than say a really Company B that owns a building and pays a mortage, taxes, electric, water, owns say 50 trucks, 30 loaders, 30 skid steers, and has say 100 employees, etc... than Company A who runs the business out of their home or just rents a building and has a lot less employee's and say only 5 trucks, 2 skid steers and a loader.

Same applies for the labor burden.

I know what you mean because I shake my head sometimes on the winning bids.

I just lost a $45,000 dollar bid, the winning bid $25,000, scratching my head on how someone is going to do a place that big for that little amount.

1" trigger so that means your people are there at the start of the storm till the end and clean up.

Product alone for the roads and sidewalks at my cost around $10,000.

If we get a half way decent winter man hours of at least 100 hours for a skid steer, a truck and about 150 hours for sidewalks.

Add in clean up hours and your looking at around another 20 to 30 hours added on.

But it is what it is, I am driving thru the place this winter to check it out and see how it goes.

Another place, I just happened to know what the winning bid was last year, this year almost $10,000 dollars less than the winning bid last year -(no I didn't get it either, I put in a legimate bid)

I am hoping for a real heavy winter this year because those companys will be taking losses because of low bidding.


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## MSsnowplowing

Freshwater said:


> No the profit is 250 all total for a 3"storm. Not 250 x 25 buildings. We'd all take that.


Oh hell NO, doing 25 buildings and only making $250 profit.

My bag I misunderstood, thought it was per building.

Don't walk, run away, it's not worth the headaches for that amount.


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## Jsw98

Good news I got the bid I bid $50 per property which would cover all the labor and Materials and still make good money


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## Jsw98

Yes it’s going to be $50 per property trigger point is 2 inches and we only need to go out once every Storm also if snow reaches over 6 inches price doubles


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## Unraveller

Jsw98 said:


> Yes it's going to be $50 per property trigger point is 2 inches and we only need to go out once every Storm also if snow reaches over 6 inches price doubles


Good luck.

I think you're in for a tough lesson this season.


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## MSsnowplowing

Jsw98 said:


> Good news I got the bid I bid $50 per property which would cover all the labor and Materials and still make good money


Let's us know how you did at the end of the season because 25 building in 4 hours is about 6 minutes a building and your going to find it takes a lot longer than that doing it by hand.

Hope you also figured in insurance, taxes, W.C., etc...


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## BossPlow2010

You're going to plow and salt 25 properties in four hours with a 10" storm.

:laughing:


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## Randall Ave

MSsnowplowing said:


> Let's us know how you did at the end of the season because 25 building in 4 hours is about 6 minutes a building and your going to find it takes a lot longer than that doing it by hand.
> 
> Hope you also figured in insurance, taxes, W.C., etc...


If he is doing this legit/legal. With workman's comp and all. I just don't see a profit here. I could be wrong.


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## Unraveller

Jsw98 said:


> Good news I got the bid I bid $50 per property which would cover all the labor and Materials and still make good money


If you haven't signed anything yet, don't. I think you might want to rethink this.


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## John_DeereGreen

I think you're in for an expensive lesson.


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## MSsnowplowing

Oh boy, as I was reading everyones responses this started playing on my youtube music.


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## MSsnowplowing

And the next one, LOL


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## Freshwater

Jsw98 said:


> Good news I got the bid I bid $50 per property which would cover all the labor and Materials and still make good money


Couple questions...
Are there 25 lots? 1 per Building? Or Are some shared? Do all the buildings have steps on the walks? Are you salting too? I understand salting is not prevalent in denver.How big are the lots? Please post some sat pics...


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## Jsw98

Obviously everyone thinks I ****ed up so no reason asking for any more help


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## Jsw98

I just told the property management company I’m doing a increase to $70 per property


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## John_DeereGreen

Jsw98 said:


> I just told the property management company I'm doing a increase to $70 per property


You won't give us the information we asked for to help you.


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## BossPlow2010

Jsw98 said:


> I just told the property management company I'm doing a increase to $70 per property


Increasing price after you've won the bid shows ignorance and lack of expierencing in bidding as well as snow and ice management. It's also unprofessional.

You were told early on that this would be over your head and that you should sub for someone your first couple seasons. You didn't like the answer or you chose not to listen. 
Hopefully you'll listen now before you get burned


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## Jsw98

Obviously I haven’t done this before it doesn’t take rocket science to figure that out, I don’t plan on working for anybody nor doing any subcontractor work, The point is to get jobs and figure it


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## John_DeereGreen

If that's your mentality then bid it at $0.00.


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## Freshwater

Jsw98 said:


> Obviously I haven't done this before it doesn't take rocket science to figure that out, I don't plan on working for anybody nor doing any subcontractor work, The point is to get jobs and figure it


Well good luck then...


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## BUFF

Jsw98 said:


> Obviously everyone thinks I ****** up so no reason asking for any more help


Now time oot........ You need to understand a couple things before getting all fired up and pissy. The guys have given you sound advice and don't want to see anyone fail. Besides looking oot for you they're also looking oot for the industry. What I mean is pricing or what you should be getting paid for snow removal is declining while operating expenses are rising.
When someone comes in low or low balls all it does is driven down pricing and opens the door for fly by night ootfits that don't understand snow removal/ice management, don't have proper insurance and end up not fulfilling the contractual agreement which gives snow removal professionals a bad wrap.



Jsw98 said:


> I just told the property management company I'm doing a increase to $70 per property


I would find it hard to believe they'll sign you after coming back with a higher price. It's a sign of someone not understanding what they're doing.

You said you're in Denver and you haven't seen much snow in 6yrs of living there. You should have figured out by now Colo weather varies and you should also understand getting a couple feet in one storm is a reality and you need to be prepared for that. Depending on which side of town snow amounts vary a lot. If on the west side by Golden, south by County Line they get a lot of snow while east in Saudi Aurora not so much.

You're going to find it hard to retain shoveler's throughout the season especially when there's stairs and elevated walks to deal with. This one area everyone struggles with. You'll have guys getting boozed up and not showing or worst yet showing up drunk and doing a half @$$ed job.
Also snow being so sporadic in Denver what are your guys going to do while waiting and waiting for it to snow? The have living expenses to deal with and counting on snow money isn't the wisest thing to do.

Personally I believe it would be in your best interest if the property management didn't sign with you after the price increase. There's a lot more to snow removal than meets the eye and being new at it be prepared to learn and hopefully not the hard way.

If you want send me a PM with the addresses of a couple of the properties and I'll take a look at them using satellite images. Don't worry I'm aboot 60 miles north of Denver and don't have any intensions of pulling work out of there.


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## Unraveller

Jsw98 said:


> Obviously I haven't done this before it doesn't take rocket science to figure that out, I don't plan on working for anybody nor doing any subcontractor work, The point is to get jobs and figure it


Let's get the basics out of the way:


What Vehicles/equipment do you own?
How many employees do you have, are they trained, and how will they transpot from job to job?
Do you have the cash Buffer to pay your employees for 10-12 days works, before you collect from this property management company?
Do you have insurance? Does this contract require insurance?
What's the address of one of these properties? So we can bring it up on satellite and measure it for you.

Once we know a little bit about your business, we can start offering Topical advice.


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## ktfbgb

BUFF said:


> Now time oot........ You need to understand a couple things before getting all fired up and pissy. The guys have given you sound advice and don't want to see anyone fail. Besides looking oot for you they're also looking oot for the industry. What I mean is pricing or what you should be getting paid for snow removal is declining while operating expenses are rising.
> When someone comes in low or low balls all it does is driven down pricing and opens the door for fly by night ootfits that don't understand snow removal/ice management, don't have proper insurance and end up not fulfilling the contractual agreement which gives snow removal professionals a bad wrap.
> 
> I would find it hard to believe they'll sign you after coming back with a higher price. It's a sign of someone not understanding what they're doing.
> 
> You said you're in Denver and you haven't seen much snow in 6yrs of living there. You should have figured out by now Colo weather varies and you should also understand getting a couple feet in one storm is a reality and you need to be prepared for that. Depending on which side of town snow amounts vary a lot. If on the west side by Golden, south by County Line they get a lot of snow while east in Saudi Aurora not so much.
> 
> You're going to find it hard to retain shoveler's throughout the season especially when there's stairs and elevated walks to deal with. This one area everyone struggles with. You'll have guys getting boozed up and not showing or worst yet showing up drunk and doing a half @$$ed job.
> Also snow being so sporadic in Denver what are your guys going to do while waiting and waiting for it to snow? The have living expenses to deal with and counting on snow money isn't the wisest thing to do.
> 
> Personally I believe it would be in your best interest if the property management didn't sign with you after the price increase. There's a lot more to snow removal than meets the eye and being new at it be prepared to learn and hopefully not the hard way.
> 
> If you want send me a PM with the addresses of a couple of the properties and I'll take a look at them using satellite images. Don't worry I'm aboot 60 miles north of Denver and don't have any intensions of pulling work out of there.


OP listen to this advice. I have met Buff in person, and he is a great guy. He is offering you what will most likely end up being the most valuable advice one can be offered when starting a new business. Please think carefully about your response because free advice tends to disappear rather quickly.


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## BUFF

ktfbgb said:


> OP listen to this advice. I have met Buff in person, and he is a great guy. He is offering you what will most likely end up being the most valuable advice one can be offered when starting a new business. Please think carefully about your response because free advice tends to disappear rather quickly.


Wow...... I've been called great twice this afternoon....... But the 1st time had a couple adjectives and a few words that would get a nastygram from our Den Mother......:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## BUFF

Randall Ave said:


> Big state, snowfalls vary. Where are you.


Average snow fall data.
https://www.weather.gov/bou/denverannualsnowfall1882-2014

Shows average of days with fresh snow by month and total accumulation 
https://www.weather.gov/bou/denverannualsnowfall1882-2014


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## JMHConstruction

Jsw, before getting all defensive because you're stressing out, answer a couple questions here. Depending on how you answer them may give you relief (or I guess stress you out more). Either way, chalk it up to a learning expense, but you HAVE to learn from it.

You said you bid it for $50. How did you come up with that? Just raised it $20 from your original? You seemed to do the same after you realized you were too low. OR did you sit down and figure out your numbers?

If you did figure out your operating costs, did you add in for taxes, and other job related costs?

Did you base your numbers as a whole and assuming you would finish in 4 hours, or did you figure time for each property and add them together? 

You need to go crawl before you can walk. Why would you be so against subbing or working for someone else? At least them you will make money and not just hope your wild ass guess gets you money.

If you legitimately sat down and figured this out and think that with your $50 you will come out ahead, go into this with confidence. Take notes this year, and next time you'll know what you did wrong, and what you did right.

I have a feeling this one might leave ya in the cold, just don't keep repeating the same mistakes (almost killed me in the beginnin). Learn your numbers, and you will learn to bid


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## A Hero Lawn Care

BUFF said:


> Wow...... I've been called great twice this afternoon....... But the 1st time had a couple adjectives and a few words that would get a nastygram from our Den Mother......:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Buff is great. He was great help to me. Great at Polishing off beers too

But in all seriousness I believe you gave me some great advice.


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## RMGLawn

So how it this season going for the original poster?


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