# Employee using their own plow truck



## sven1277 (Jan 15, 2008)

My mechanic is talking to me about putting a plow on his truck this year and running a route. What are the legalities of doing this? He is not a sub. My biggest question is insurance. I would pay him at a rate more like a sub. He would be responsible for his own truck/plow repairs. Any insight would be great. Thanks.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Ok,pay it not the issue,
He still needs the proper insurance, cya , and you need to notify your agent.

Can you list him and his truck under your insurance?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

He's a sub. he needs to get his own insurance. You need to make sure he has the proper coverage.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

dieselss;2024457 said:


> He's a sub. he needs to get his own insurance. You need to make sure he has the proper coverage.


X2

You could put him under your insurance, but good luck telling the Irs your paying an employee $60+ hourly in snow removal, he'd also be ridiculously taxed so consider him s sub


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

What happens when a piece of equipment goes down in a event?

Do you pull him off his route at xx per hour and now pay xx to repair it? 

After a 20 hour plowing, do you expect him to work on ur stuff to ready for the next nights event?

You'll be creating bad feeling if you do.

He needs to be paid as a sub and meet all the criterias as any other sub.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

He's not a sub he is an employee who has hie own tools.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small...ependent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee

He is under the direction of sven1277, sven will control what work he does, how he does it and when.

The details of his work as a makenoknock is up to them to figure out.

1 he is all ready an employee.
When hiring, ask yourself: will I be able to control when this person comes and goes (such as their hours and vacation time)? Will I have final say in what they'll be doing and how they'll be doing it? Will this person be hired for a non-specified time? Will I be giving them the supplies they need to do their job?

If you answered yes to these questions, odds are, you're talking about an employee.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

The company's insurance won't cover him tho.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

dieselss;2024521 said:


> The company's insurance won't cover him tho.


I use to use my personal truck for work, and I was insured by the CO I was employed by.

IF he is on the clock he is also covered by your INS if he gets hurt.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

The employee will have to lease his truck to the company. Its easy just sign a piece of paper, ask your ins co they can help you out with it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

so your telling my that pizza-hut leases their delivery guys car?.
and or the delivery guy is a subcontractor for pizza-hut?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

SnoFarmer;2024522 said:


> I use to use my personal truck for work, and I was insured by the CO I was employed by.
> 
> IF he is on the clock he is also covered by your INS if he gets hurt.


That's not always true. It's the companys insurance decision to make that call.
It's not if he gets hurt, it's if he hurts others, or all the b.s. that goes with it.

I was in the same boat as the op's mechanic. My employer wouldn't cover my truck. I had to become a business and get insurance and all that good jazz. I also never "punched the clock" while using my truck. However, being the mechanic, usually had to "punch out" to go plow during normal work hours.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

dieselss;2024527 said:


> That's not always true. It's the companys insurance decision to make that call.
> It's not if he gets hurt, it's if he hurts others, or all the b.s. that goes with it.
> 
> I was in the same boat as the op's mechanic. My employer wouldn't cover my truck. I had to become a business and get insurance and all that good jazz. I also never "punched the clock" while using my truck. However, being the mechanic, usually had to "punch out" to go plow during normal work hours.


ok while that can happen, 
the lines were blurred as I bet you had some direction on how and when your work was done?
you may have still been a employee.
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small...ependent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee

or you could have had tickets or a accident that drove up the cost of insuring you.

While in most cases the PAP will cover you for business use of a personal vehicle, there are situations where it will not. Such situations are not uncommon and, if not remedied, could result in significant financial detriment for you and your family. Consult your Trusted Choice® independent insurance agent for advice on how to close potentially devastating gaps in your PAP today.

he can get commercial INS and have snowplowing listed,
then he can still work as an employee.

http://www.gocompare.com/car-insurance/insuring-your-car-for-work-use/


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Small Business >
Managing Employees >
Employment

Can Employers Make You Use Your Own Vehicle at Work?
by W D Adkins, Demand Media

Sometimes you have to use your own vehicle to do your job. If you must do a lot of work-related driving, it can get expensive. Many employers reimburse employees for the business use of their vehicles. If that's not true in your case, you still may be able to take a substantial deduction on your taxes for work-related driving.
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Employer Latitude

As a general rule, employees are hired at will. This means an employer can impose requirements such as making you use your own vehicle at work. Employers are not required to reimburse you for mileage in most states. However, if a company has a stated policy of reimbursing mileage or if reimbursement is part of a union or other employment contract, you usually must be paid for work-related mileage.
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/can-employers-make-use-own-vehicle-work-12597.html


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Nothing to do with my driving. Just the way the companys insurance was.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I've always played devils advocate in life.

Answer me these scenarios

Let's name the mechanic jack because he's a jack of all trades.

Jack is a employee of John Does landscape and snow plowing. Jack decides to start plowing with said company with his personal truck. Let's say he's covered under the under the companys INS.

He's off the clock driving and is involved in a accident with plow on truck, who covering it?

He leaves the bar, couple of beers, hits someone, seriously injures or kills, who pays the bill, held responsible, I have a guess.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

1olddogtwo;2024547 said:


> I've always played devils advocate in life.
> 
> Answer me these scenarios
> 
> ...


Let's go deeper, gets pulled over and falls out of truck and breaks leg and can't work,guess who pays disability and has to hire a new mechanic.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

1olddogtwo;2024547 said:


> I've always played devils advocate in life.
> 
> Answer me these scenarios
> 
> ...


If he is OFF the clock jack is on his own.

He is only covered by the business when he,(jack) is on the clock.
He still has to have INS as required by the state he lives in.

even if on salary, was he engaged in a work related activity?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

For the record, I do use my truck each and everyday for my company. Besides local work, I used my truck to haul company owned trailers and we'll as rented assets rented thru the company all over the 48 states and been to Canada. As well as plow company owned facilities as well as customers properties


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Might be easier just to buy a truck and let the mechanic plow with it.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

grandview;2024555 said:


> Might be easier just to buy a truck and let the mechanic plow with it.


Only problem with that is pay. Won't get the same rate using a company truck


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

So, what I'm understanding here jack is a employee who has to buy commercial liability insurance to plow snow as an employee? 

Does that make sense?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

1olddogtwo;2024554 said:


> For the record, I do use my truck each and everyday for my company. Besides local work, I used my truck to haul company owned trailers and we'll as rented assets rented thru the company all over the 48 states and been to Canada. As well as plow company owned facilities as well as customers properties


Business owners are much different than a employee.
using your personal truck for the business you own is not a good idea as you are mingling personal assets with your business, this is a time when you lease your personal vehicle to your business,

this has to do with business owners and personal vehicles
used at work, not employees using personal vehicles for work,

are you a employee or the business owner?

piercing the corporate veil.
"There is no real separation between the company and its owners. If the owners fail to maintain a formal legal separation between their business and their personal financial affairs, a court could find that the corporation or LLC is really just a sham (the owners' alter ego) and that the owners are personally operating the business as if the corporation or LLC didn't exist. For instance, if the owner pays personal bills from the business checking account or ignores the legal formalities that a corporation or LLC must follow (for example, by making important corporate or LLC decisions without recording them in minutes of a meeting), a court could decide that the owner isn't entitled to the limited liability that the corporate business structure would ordinarily provide."
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/personal-liability-piercing-corporate-veil-33006.html


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

1olddogtwo;2024557 said:


> So, what I'm understanding here jack is a employee who has to buy commercial liability insurance to plow snow as an employee?
> 
> Does that make sense?


Sounds like he's plowing on his own time. So yes he would need it. But what happens if he is needed to fix something during a storm? Now your down a truck.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

1olddogtwo;2024557 said:


> So, what I'm understanding here jack is a employee who has to buy commercial liability insurance to plow snow as an employee?
> 
> Does that make sense?


Why not?
His pay would reflect the expense.

The pizza delivery guy also needs INS to deliver pizzas for the company he works for.

If he is plowing off of the clock and without any direction other than this is what you need to plow
and using his own truck, he is a subcontractor, and not a employee. and jack should be treated as such.

on the clock= employee 100%
.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

If he is plowing off of the clock and without any direction other than this is what you need to plow
and using his own truck, he is a subcontractor, and not a employee. and jack should be treated as such.

And that's why he should be a "sub" and not an employee while plowing.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

^ or he could still be an employee.

"Hired Drivers

Do you use your vehicle or a company-owned vehicle to perform work as an employee or independent contractor? Check with the company for whom you're performing work to see if you're covered by their auto insurance policy (and, if so, to what extent).

You may need your own commercial auto insurance policy to safeguard yourself while driving on the job.

As a business owner, you can extend your commercial auto insurance policy to protect your employees while they perform work-related driving tasks. "
http://www.dmv.org/insurance/business-auto-insurance.php


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Ok then important question.
When does he start to get paid to plow?
Or when is he "on the clock" for plowing?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

In some states, if your a contractor, but 75% or more of your income comes from one entity, they will consider you an employee of that entity, and the entity will have to have workman's comp, etc on the contractor.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Also, the shop owner buys this plow, it goes on the employees truck. What happens if he quits, gets fired. And you no he's gonna do some cash work and not tell the shop owner.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Randall Ave;2024616 said:


> In some states, if your a contractor, but 75% or more of your income comes from one entity, they will consider you an employee of that entity, and the entity will have to have workman's comp, etc on the contractor.


Ok, cool but that ending contradicts the first part,
IE if he is an employee that meets that criteria he can't also be a contractor.
It's one or the other?


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Our expieience with employee owned trucks are as follows;
Truck is insured by employee.
Employee is paid his/her hourly wage while using his truck. This covers any workers compensation issues.
Employee is paid an additional hourly rate for his truck when used for snow plowing.
Employee buys own fuel. 
Employee's truck is part of our fleet and operation so we help repair when/if help is needed for repairs. 

Please check with your CPA on legalities of any arrangement made with an employee regarding his/her truck usage.


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## dodgegmc1213 (Aug 21, 2011)

I'm just saying what I do since I use my own truck for my father's business. Title is in my name but registered to him and insured under him, I'm on salary. He pays for gas during storms, I pay during any other time, I mostly pay for any repairs but he helps out sometimes depending on the repair. There might be a chance of me being on hourly this year.


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## sven1277 (Jan 15, 2008)

Ok. I'll check with my insurance agent to see what they say.


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## biggman100 (Jan 23, 2011)

sven1277;2024443 said:


> My mechanic is talking to me about putting a plow on his truck this year and running a route. What are the legalities of doing this? He is not a sub. My biggest question is insurance. I would pay him at a rate more like a sub. He would be responsible for his own truck/plow repairs. Any insight would be great. Thanks.


Sven, you might want to take a look at this site, http://www.ct-clic.com/FAQ/faqView.asp?FaqID=82&CategoryID=7

It might help clear it up a little bit. I know it isnt plowing, but, i am in a situation where the guy i work for lives in CT, but owns property in upstate NY, and to work for him, since he is not here all the time, i had to be registered as self-employed, with my own insurance, do my own taxes and vehicle maintenance, and basically the same requirements as a sub contractor.


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## Lb7 (Oct 3, 2015)

I was an employee that plowed with his own truck. I was treated as a sub and had to get my own insurance. How ever when one of my employers trucks went down and needed repair fast I clocked out of sub pay and clocked in on my regular pay to fix the truck/equipment.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Have him lease the truck to the company. Company covers fuel, insurance, and repairs due to snowplowing.
Since the company is paying for all that, don't pay him $75 an hour for the truck, pay a lower rate closer to what just an employee driving a plow would get.


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