# insurance help please



## cutshortlandscaping (Feb 12, 2015)

for years it has been a dream of mine to make a snow and ice management only company like case snow everast snow and arctic snow I have owned a landscape company for years and have been doing snow for years i have built a good client list for snow the only thing holding me back is the cost of insurance the insurance i have is great i pay around 4k a year for 1 mil coverage for full season work we have never had to use it for a snow related incident but it doesn't cover big box stores and strip malls which is a lot of what i would be doing the insurance guy quoted me 30k to be able to do strip malls and big box stores so does anyone know a insurance co that would cover that type stuff and not be mega expensive??


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## triplestrokes (Dec 29, 2015)

Change carrier's.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

X2 sounds crazy, Completed snow operations should cost you somewhere around $2500.00.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Hard on my eyes reading your post .


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

Our insurance premiums are based off annual income... if I make more they make more..


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Hysert;2124206 said:


> Our insurance premiums are based off annual income... if I make more they make more..


Mine there is a one time fee for every client added to policy.


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## cutshortlandscaping (Feb 12, 2015)

What carriers do you guys use


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

FredG;2124197 said:


> X2 sounds crazy, Completed snow operations should cost you somewhere around $2500.00.


Different states, different rates. I'm in Jersey, so it's insane here. But I would think he's gonna pay a lot more to do big box stores, than a mom and pop hardware store. And I'm not trying to be the English teacher. But please use a period, capital now and then.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Randall Ave;2124248 said:


> Different states, different rates. I'm in Jersey, so it's insane here. But I would think he's gonna pay a lot more to do big box stores, than a mom and pop hardware store.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

cutshortlandscaping;2124232 said:


> What carriers do you guys use


Do you use a local reputable agency? What exactly are you trying to do? You say you have a GL you are happy with. Why did you not need snow insurance before? I see your in NY this should not be a hassle or send you broke.

We could list are carriers but I have not shopped in a long time. You need a smart agent that knows your looking for a fair quote and won't stop shopping until you find it. Don't tell them your looking for malls just state commercial plowing. You just want completed snow added to your current GL. The only restriction I got is 24hr big grocery stores. Your carrier will let you know if they don't want you there or possibly a one time fee to approve before bids are submitted with insurance info. If your still having problems let us know.


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

SHAWZER;2124200 said:


> Hard on my eyes reading your post .


Agreed. I stopped at the third line. Some call it petty, but the fact is, if you want to be seen as a pro, use punctuation. Makes it easier for those reading, and no matter how good you are at your job, the proposal (in this case, the question asked) is the first impression.


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## cutshortlandscaping (Feb 12, 2015)

Sawboy;2124256 said:


> Agreed. I stopped at the third line. Some call it petty, but the fact is, if you want to be seen as a pro, use punctuation. Makes it easier for those reading, and no matter how good you are at your job, the proposal (in this case, the question asked) is the first impression.


All proposals and bids have proper punctuation and spelling. I didn't know you needed that stuff for a question on a forum.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

cutshortlandscaping;2124263 said:


> All proposals and bids have proper punctuation and spelling. I didn't know you needed that stuff for a question on a forum.


Very good lesson, Now you know, Lets get to your issue, You did not respond to upper post besides these guys breaking them. 30K ??? Again I'm in NY not having this issue.


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## cutshortlandscaping (Feb 12, 2015)

FredG;2124265 said:


> Very good lesson, Now you know, Lets get to your issue, You did not respond to upper post besides these guys breaking them. 30K ??? Again I'm in NY not having this issue.


I don't know what it is but every where I go it's mega expensive in order to plow larger lots. I can do small lots and residential drives with my current insurance but the big stuff I can't touch. who do you use?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I use a broker. He can shop around and find the best deal for me. Maybe try that. I don't know what it is in your state but my premium is based on how much I invoice for the year. It's a percentage that stays proportional with how much work you do.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

cutshortlandscaping;2124273 said:


> I don't know what it is but every where I go it's mega expensive in order to plow larger lots. I can do small lots and residential drives with my current insurance but the big stuff I can't touch. who do you use?


The small lots are commercial aren't they? You still need slip and fall? What is a large lot to your current GL. Something isn't right. This is just a addition to your current GL. Not uncommon for landscape Co. to have completed snow added.

Yes your rates may increase from the small lots or a fee. It's not enough to change your mind on commercial. I would be more than happy to PM you with info. Not today, Have no idea where to look. I would like to figure out why this is a problem before I do. You got to figure why this is happening. My GL is excavating and paving. Had no issues adding snow and no property's rejected.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I use travelers and they have no exclusions or any input into lot size.(no public roads)My premium is based on income.When I asked my agent about extra snow coverage he said I don't need it.He said if there is not a specific exclusion written into the policy,then I'm covered.I had a 200k slip and fall a couple years ago that was refused by my ins (slip was caused by ice from leaking gutter) and never heard anything more from ins company.I'm in ct and pay 2600$ which includes 2 mil gl,insures my skid steer,excavator and my shop. Shop around and never offer up to much info,let your agent handle it,the insurance companies are always looking for a reason to hose you!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

leigh;2124321 said:


> I use travelers and they have no exclusions or any input into lot size.(no public roads)My premium is based on income.When I asked my agent about extra snow coverage he said I don't need it.He said if there is not a specific exclusion written into the policy,then I'm covered.I had a 200k slip and fall a couple years ago that was refused by my ins (slip was caused by ice from leaking gutter) and never heard anything more from ins company.I'm in ct and pay 2600$ which includes 2 mil gl,insures my skid steer,excavator and my shop. Shop around and never offer up to much info,let your agent handle it,the insurance companies are always looking for a reason to hose you!


That's what I'm talking about, $2500 to $2800. Somethings not right or they are trying to shaft him. Most carriers are more worried about traffic flow than size of lot.


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## cutshortlandscaping (Feb 12, 2015)

FredG;2124286 said:


> The small lots are commercial aren't they? You still need slip and fall? What is a large lot to your current GL. Something isn't right. This is just a addition to your current GL. Not uncommon for landscape Co. to have completed snow added.
> 
> Yes your rates may increase from the small lots or a fee. It's not enough to change your mind on commercial. I would be more than happy to PM you with info. Not today, Have no idea where to look. I would like to figure out why this is a problem before I do. You got to figure why this is happening. My GL is excavating and paving. Had no issues adding snow and no property's rejected.


I have slip and fall and full gl for snow but if I was to all larger lots than it would increase from $2000 a year to $30,000 a year


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## cutshortlandscaping (Feb 12, 2015)

FredG;2124334 said:


> That's what I'm talking about, $2500 to $2800. Somethings not right or they are trying to shaft him. Most carriers are more worried about traffic flow than size of lot.


That's weird because I have travelers too I'll have to look into it than


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

cutshortlandscaping;2124350 said:


> That's weird because I have travelers too I'll have to look into it than


Don't talk directly with travelers,talk with your agent.I'm not suggesting being dishonest but let your agent explain things.Ins company called me and I made mistake of blabbing to much info,my agent said talk to him not them,he knows how to deal with them.Check your policy,see if there's any language or clauses that specifically mention anything to do with snow removal or lot size,if its not excluded in the policy don't poke the hornets nest!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

leigh;2124352 said:


> Don't talk directly with travelers,talk with your agent.I'm not suggesting being dishonest but let your agent explain things.Ins company called me and I made mistake of blabbing to much info,my agent said talk to him not them,he knows how to deal with them.Check your policy,see if there's any language or clauses that specifically mention anything to do with snow removal or lot size,if its not excluded in the policy don't poke the hornets nest!


I agree, Your already insured for snow. Might be trying to sell you something you don't need. They are commission based.


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## cutshortlandscaping (Feb 12, 2015)

FredG;2124363 said:


> I agree, Your already insured for snow. Might be trying to sell you something you don't need. They are commission based.


True I'm going to have my lawyer look it over


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Forget the attorney for now. His bill will probably be $250. Use the info in the upper posts. Get a broker on your side. I think whoever you talked with for the 30k is confused this happens. Stay cool let the broker do the talking, Again, Be honest but don't offer any info. See what your options are with the broker they may have a better package for your needs.


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## cutshortlandscaping (Feb 12, 2015)

FredG;2124521 said:


> Forget the attorney for now. His bill will probably be $250. Use the info in the upper posts. Get a broker on your side. I think whoever you talked with for the 30k is confused this happens. Stay cool let the broker do the talking, Again, Be honest but don't offer any info. See what your options are with the broker they may have a better package for your needs.


I am and the attorney is a family friend who owes me a favor


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

cutshortlandscaping;2124536 said:


> I am and the attorney is a family friend who owes me a favor


Cool go with it then. Nothing wrong with a barter. Good luck.


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

Last season I had to carry 5mil of umbrella insurance, at the time I had large shopping centers, one company was 10k, on top of my other insurances. Then I switched companies and with everything combined it was 7,500. This season no more large shopping centers, ive saved over 4k


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

Cut short, if you are a full time landscaper you should be able to find a good quality carrier that will build in snow removal coverage on a GL policy. The only problem with that is that your slip/fall claims from the snow removal (you WILL eventually get them) will have an adverse impact on your landscaping operations insurance. You might lose the entire policy due to claims. This is especially concerning when dealing with removing snow at big box stores. If you were my client, I would probably suggest that you review their contracts with me, and your attorney before making this decision but I think, ultimately, I would recommend that you spin off the snow removal services on a stand alone snow removal GL policy and bite the bullet. Best to work with a local, larger sized independent insurance agent that specializes in contracting insurance (like me). Good luck.
Ben/Insurance


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Are the insurance issues all handled now and are you happy with the rates?


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## superdog1 (Oct 13, 2011)

While I know I am responding to a post that is almost 3 months old, It is important that the original question be answered. Before getting the bright idea to plow snow for a living (I wanted to get rich really fast!, Lol), I sold insurance as a broker in PA for 22 years. Your problem is that the insurance CO knows that the type of business you are proposing will involve lots of sub-contractors and all of them will be working on 3rd party contracts. Unless you intend to hire the needed employees and purchase enough equipment (All of it has your Co name in big letters on the side) to service every location you win the bid for, the insurance costs will be insane.

To back up what I am saying, after the next storm, drive around and look at the quality of the work where you know for a fact one of the big nationals serviced. There are numerous threads on this site alone talking about the crappy work that was done at the lots under contract by Brickman, USM etc. While not all of them will be bad, some are just downright ugly! When you are the big servicing Co that went around and signed up all of these strip malls and box stores, you are on the hook for the work that was done, good OR bad. The little old lady who just had to have her hair done or Fido needed his weekly dog grooming done, despite the fact that a blizzard was hitting and it was -10 below with 30mph winds will not care who was supposed to clean the lot. Neither will her lawyers when they sue the pet store or hairdresser along with the property management Co and YOU because she fell and broke her hip.

In the end, the problem as the insurance Co sees it is this: When you are the business owner and you and/or your employees are doing the work under your direct supervision, they know for the most part what they are getting into when they issue the policy for a few million $$. They know that since your name is all over the trucks and uniforms and you have the ability to fire the idiot that stripped off all of the concrete parking stops for the 2nd time this week (in the same parking lot), the level of quality control will be high. They also know everything about you because they asked a lot of questions when they wrote the policy.

When they try to underwrite a snow removal Co that is going to have large % of the work done by sub-contractors it presents a serious problem for them. While your credit score is 900 and you have no claims filed in 10 years and have been in business for 15, there is no way they can check out all of the sub-contractors you will need to complete all of the contracts you have out each season. That thought makes them reach for the Rolaids jar (It should make you cringe and reach for antacids too, Lol). 

We know that all snow removal guys are honest, hard working and would NEVER falsify insurance documents, lie about the condition, size and amount of their equipment (Sub tells you he has 3 trucks-first storm hits and his 1973 CJ5 with a 6' blade dies in 15 mins. and when you arrive on site, him and his 87 yr old father are using two 36" snowblowers to clear a 5 acre lot), tell you they applied 6 tons of salt and only put down 1 (or the same sub-contractor dumps 2 tri-axle loads of salt in the corner of the lot without a cover and gets a hydraulic leak on a skid steer the same day and just keeps dumping 5 gallon buckets of "TSC 303" in it for 17 hours instead of fixing the leak-The issue is brought to your attention by the game warden because all the fish in the stream are jumping out on to the field or dead and the DEP and EPA are on site trying to boom out and remove the 65 gallons of hydraulic oil/salt mixture before it gets into the local drinking water supply and the store manager is asking you to pay for a line of credit at the car wash so customers can clean the oil off of their cars).

I did not make up anything in the last paragraph. These are all things that have happened to a national or statewide snow removal contractor. The amount of unknowns for the insurance Co are crazy. They come up with the rates they charge you based on your location, prior claims, financials and time in business. There really isn't an accurate way to underwrite a business they know nothing about, hence the crazy amounts of money they are asking for when issuing a policy to your new business venture using mostly sub-contractors.

Yes, you can ask all of your hires for a certificate of insurance showing your Co as a named insured and also making them sign hold harmless agreements. While it may be valid at the time of accepting the contract and TOS, there is no way of knowing until after it is too late in most cases if it stays valid until April 15th or so when the contract ends. 

Also, even if you make all of your subs provide proof of WC (Workmans compensation), there is no way to know how long it remains valid. If it does cancel and the sub-contractors employee (Or sub-contracted sub-contractor-Yes, there have been subs who tried to sub out the same work they just subbed from you) get hurt, your WC will now have to pick up the claim in some cases or if the sub-contracted sub-contractor really isn't a sub-contractor because of various state and Federal laws and is actually an employee of your sub-contractor regardless of what your sub calls him (Or her?), your WC may also have to pick up the claim.

As you can see, getting into the snow removal game on a large multi-county or even state level can be complicated with lots of pit falls and surprises and making sure the subs you hire show up and plow is probably one of the easier tasks you will have to do. The examples I listed above of bad things that happen are not all of the claims I have seen. there are many more that are very ugly with serious consequences to all parties involved (I tried to list some of the more comical for entertainment value :laughing: ).

Note: I have only ever been licensed in the state of PA, so some of what I listed may or may not apply to you or your situation. None of this should be construed as advice. Always find an insurance professional when asking for advice or buying insurance. If you ask your current agent why the costs are so high, he or she should easily be able to explain it as good as if not better than I just did, AND, their answers will apply to your state.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Sustained winds of 35mph or greater for a blizard and it doesn't need to be that cold.

But, nice stories.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

superdog1;2143749 said:


> While I know I am responding to a post that is almost 3 months old, It is important that the original question be answered. Before getting the bright idea to plow snow for a living (I wanted to get rich really fast!, Lol), I sold insurance as a broker in PA for 22 years. Your problem is that the insurance CO knows that the type of business you are proposing will involve lots of sub-contractors and all of them will be working on 3rd party contracts. Unless you intend to hire the needed employees and purchase enough equipment (All of it has your Co name in big letters on the side) to service every location you win the bid for, the insurance costs will be insane.
> 
> To back up what I am saying, after the next storm, drive around and look at the quality of the work where you know for a fact one of the big nationals serviced. There are numerous threads on this site alone talking about the crappy work that was done at the lots under contract by Brickman, USM etc. While not all of them will be bad, some are just downright ugly! When you are the big servicing Co that went around and signed up all of these strip malls and box stores, you are on the hook for the work that was done, good OR bad. The little old lady who just had to have her hair done or Fido needed his weekly dog grooming done, despite the fact that a blizzard was hitting and it was -10 below with 30mph winds will not care who was supposed to clean the lot. Neither will her lawyers when they sue the pet store or hairdresser along with the property management Co and YOU because she fell and broke her hip.
> 
> ...


Good post and thanks for taking the time to share.


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## andy99 (Jan 5, 2015)

The quote probably said 3000.00 and he thinks its 30000.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

1olddogtwo said:


> Good post and thanks for taking the time to share.


Looks like we have 2 Hemingways on PS.

30


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## cutshortlandscaping (Feb 12, 2015)

andy99 said:


> The quote probably said 3000.00 and he thinks its 30000.


No it was 30k


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

Guys, Travelers does not want to insure snow removal operations on their GL policy and if they find out, they will no longer offer you insurance. I work with them every day. Cut short, the best way to approach this is by approaching one carrier (through a large independent insurance agency) with your entire account (GL, Trucks, WC, equipment, Umbrella, and your personal insurance too). Tell them exactly what your operations are, and let them bid on your insurance. They will likely approach one carrier and negotiate the correct insurance for you. Make your buying decision on the best overall value, not the lowest price. The key is choosing the right insurance agent. Go with a larger agency that does a lot of work in the construction field. Good luck.
Ben/Insurance


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