# illegal workers



## hummer81 (Feb 1, 2010)

I know this thread will spark alot of reaction. Shame on all that have hired or that are currently hiring illegals that are not 1099. To all that refuse to do so thanks and god bless you. Granted lawncare and snow removal are not skilled trades, we still need professionals rep. each industry. Let me know what you think.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

What part of Illegal don't people understand?..
Fine the heck out of anyone caught hiring illegals to the point they would never consider do so in the first place.If you cannot compete paying an honest wage you shouldn't be in business.
Illegal workers are a series problem in our country costing US tax payers $100 Billion dollars a year "Cost estimates usually only measure the fiscal cost, which weighs government spending (such as on public schools, medical care, incarceration and unemployment benefits) against government income (from income, property and sales taxes.) " ...It is a real problem and is hurting every U.S Tax payer.
The cost est was from an ABC news article.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/illegal-immigrants-cost-us-100-billion-year-group/story?id=10699317


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## hummer81 (Feb 1, 2010)

Oshkosh;1438709 said:


> What part of Illegal don't people understand?..
> Fine the heck out of anyone caught hiring illegals to the point they would never consider do so in the first place.If you cannot compete paying an honest wage you shouldn't be in business.
> Illegal workers are a series problem in our country costing US tax payers $100 Billion dollars a year "Cost estimates usually only measure the fiscal cost, which weighs government spending (such as on public schools, medical care, incarceration and unemployment benefits) against government income (from income, property and sales taxes.) " ...It is a real problem and is hurting every U.S Tax payer.
> The cost est was from an ABC news article.
> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/illegal-immigrants-cost-us-100-billion-year-group/story?id=10699317


oshkosh, couldn't say it better myself. I just wanna hear from the guys that think they can rationalize harboring illegal workers. I guarantee there are many among us that ignore this and continue to contribute to our major economical problem. Anyone?


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

I understand, having been in the paving industry I can understand the temptation,that being said I never acted.


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## rcn971 (Jan 28, 2011)

I hired a born in the USA late 20s caucasion male this past summer.......he was as slow as molasses and even after showing him multiple times how to do things, I had to go back and correct every single thing he touched. The funniest thing was he actually stole a blank check out of my glove box made it out to himself and signed my name, went to the bank and cashed it.....he is in jail now, but at least I tried to hire American. I tried a few years ago to hire a crew leader and the guy told me he needed at least $22 per hour plus full benefits to start after informing me that he was not a "working" crew leader but more of a supervisor....lmao. My immigrant workers all have shown me required ID and get paid entirely on the books. Whether or not the ID's are real is not my burden to prove at this time, but I wonder where all the money is going that gets deducted out of their checks every week?


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

It is your burden actually....you need to "e-verify" ALL employees regardless of what color they are. Your a$$ is grass if one of your illegals kills someone while operating your equipment


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Oshkosh;1438709 said:


> If you cannot compete paying an honest wage you shouldn't be in business.
> Illegal workers are a series problem in our country costing US tax payers $100 Billion dollars a year]


I'm not going to take a side, but your statement implies the wage is going to be less if they are (illegals, non white or whatever other category you want to insert)...

As someone already posted, sometimes it's not the wage, but consistent work force they are after. I bet they'd pay more to (whoever) as long as the person shows up, has respect for the job, can perform the tasks, and keep the customers happy. 
Unfortunately the landscape/snow shoveling industry is hard to find that person.

If this thread can be a constructive discussion about labor, maybe it'll stay up for a while. 
Get into a screaming match and I won't make it back this afternoon to read the next post...


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## Gmgbo (Jan 18, 2005)

illegals are here want more money......but they are worth it


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## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

I've thought about hiring a few Mexicans, damn hard workers....

I know one guy that has about 20 illegals, I'm guessing they are getting $8/hr cash....


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## Gmgbo (Jan 18, 2005)

I think its a myth that they work for cheap....the minium here is $15 per hour. They are not afraid to work becuase they have families to support. They work at a steady pace all day and barely stop. Every year the white kids work less and want more. Illegal labor is here to stay, the govt can never stop it.


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## 24v6spd (Jan 18, 2009)

deicepro;1438864 said:


> I've thought about hiring a few Mexicans, damn hard workers....
> 
> I know one guy that has about 20 illegals, I'm guessing they are getting $8/hr cash....


Someone needs to turn him in.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

I will keep my comments to a minimum in a effort to get others to speak up.
You know where I stand. It is anti American to hire Illegal workers....
You cost every tax payer including yourself a ton of extra money,that is if you pay taxes to begin with.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

I don't think it's a myth that they work for less money. We all know that they work for less money.I know that they are hard workers. You see 4 of them stuffed into the cab of every landscraper truck around here. They are into everything around here. They do Roofing ,Siding,Framing, You name it and they are trying to do it. My competition use"s them for roofing. They are working for two thirds of the money American workers get. So guess who is the low bidder on the block. I do siding jobs for a builder in Bristol. He has a guy who charges 8.00 dollars an hour per man.You just call him up and tell him how many men you want and he delivers them to the job in the back of an old dump truck.He picks them up at the end of the day. You just write one check to the boss. He uses them for all his landscaping.Many of my friends are framers. They are losing a lot of work to those guys.They say that they are charging half price to frame houses.I know it's true because I have talked to the builders.They mess up a lot of houses as they haven"t been doing it long enough to have all the skill that they need.One builder I know pays a guy just to watch them so he can catch to screw ups before they happen. I have seen some messed up stuff. I don't know how the get it past the inspectors. That being said.It is not going to change. So everybody better get used to it. I get about one call a month from one of them trying to keep their crews busy.You really can"t blame them they are just trying to feed there family's just like the rest of us.


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## 24v6spd (Jan 18, 2009)

Oshkosh;1438907 said:


> I will keep my comments to a minimum in a effort to get others to speak up.
> You know where I stand. It is anti American to hire Illegal workers....
> You cost every tax payer including yourself a ton of extra money,that is if you pay taxes to begin with.


 If people refused to hire them they would go back where they came from. It is anti-American to hire them, the people that do are greedy. I don't buy the argument that Americans don't want the jobs.


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## Gmgbo (Jan 18, 2005)

Americans do want jobs, they just dont want to work hard. Usually the white kids last a few days then disappear after their first pay day...no calls or letters just gone. The illegals come from a completly different world where life is much more difficult. The majority are very well mannered and appreciate everything you do for them. They also have pride and their work, they dont like for the quickest way to get in and get out.


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## Gmgbo (Jan 18, 2005)

Yes we are losing tax money, but im sure we are losing out more with white collar crime and schemes. Illegal labor is like the drug trade, it will never go away


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

This fall I went looking for one additional operator for my Deere 444k wheel loader. I used multiple outlets, craigslist, word of mouth, and other trades men that I knew, trying to fill this position.
Almost 80 people responded. 
On craigslist, while I had a phone number, most would simply send emails with some of the worst writing skills I've ever seen. 
The phone calls, the average person made it clear; "I don't shovel." Some would set up the appointment and then never show up.
The laid off trades men, the few that expressed interest made it clear they'd only want cash because of collecting unemployment. (how's that better than illegals) 
Others wanted to jump ship from where they worked because they wanted to run a new machine.
Finally by Christmas, I was introduced to a self employed painter that was slow this winter.
Gave him some basic training, long course on safety, (how to climb into a wheel loader/three points of contact) and route maps. 
Funny thing is, the shovelers get the most hours of all, and pay is equal across the board.
I'm paying guys/girls to do a job. You're not worth any more or less regardless of race or ethnic
background.


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## the new boss 92 (Nov 29, 2008)

i see everyone's one delema, i agree with not hiring illeagals. but the wrost part of it all is they work harder than some people i know and dont ***** about every little thing. i do thinks its wrong but it's the truth. i how ever have a paying job witch is why i refuse to collect unemployment and work for cash i just dont think its right to everyone in need of it vs me a young hard working individual who can always find work with a little effort.


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## hummer81 (Feb 1, 2010)

I agree this shouldn't turn into a shouting match. It should be used as a tool for both sides to express their opinions. But asking an 18 year old American man or women trying to start a life on a 10-12 dollar an hour job, paying taxes and committing themselves 24/7 doesn't scream out as a great job. You can get payed that at a fast food restaurants and have a structured scheduled and steady pay check. Whereas an illegal can work for the same price, not pay taxes and send a couple dollars an hour back home and support a family (another HUGE drain on our economy). O yeah and WE are paying for their hospital visits, education, lack of auto insurance and sooo on. Many years ago in residential concrete construction, illegals ran me and 10 other positions out of work (a gradual 8 year process). I keep telling my boss " They don't do sh-- once you turn your back" Needless to say it was a huge part of his companies demise. Just my 2 cents. ussmileyflag


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## 24v6spd (Jan 18, 2009)

I don't care how hard of workers they are they are still criminals. If they don't abide by the immigration laws why would they obey any others? It is a large burden upon the taxpayers of this country to support an estimated 12 million illegals. If the government really wanted to do something about it they could.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

hummer81;1438694 said:


> I know this thread will spark alot of reaction. Shame on all that have hired or that are currently hiring illegals that are not 1099. To all that refuse to do so thanks and god bless you. Granted lawncare and snow removal are not skilled trades, we still need professionals rep. each industry. Let me know what you think.


Even so it's against the law to 1099 any employee anyways unless they are a true sub-contractor.

...


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## Eronningen (Dec 20, 2008)

I have never had an illegal and never will but I must say it sure is something that crosses my mind. Those people really work their tails off for lower wages and love it, love just having a job. Too bad they don't make themselves legal and than go to work. 

I employ 10-20 workers April-December roofing, siding, window and gutter work. I have a core group of guys that are great and have been with me quite some time but when I try to hire more and expand it just sucks. Most applicants are lazy bums that all want $20 an hour cause one time they helped their cousin do a roof. WTF! When I do try putting them to work they are slow, lazy, unwilling to try harder to accel in the company, thankless, jerks. Very frustrating........


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## ajman21 (Oct 30, 2009)

my issue with the illegals is not the fact that they want to come here and work its that they are not following the law and becoming legal citizens. At the verry least they could get a work visa. I have never worked with one but i have been replaced by them on a job because they where working for less. I must say it was most frustrating to have my job taken by some one who uses my tax money to provide them with basics despite the fact that they do not pay into the system themselves.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Most of the responses here pertain to them taking "your tax money" then sending it home. Assuming they are payed as any other employee, withholdings etc. what you guys miss on the argument end is they had taxes withheld, received a paycheck as anyone else would; they just gave you fake papers. Also, who cares if they send money home to help family. They earned it, spend it however... Nobody is questioning how you spend your money.
Now, unlike the american guy that takes layoff in winter unless he's doing snow removal, or works for cash in winter while collecting unemployment, the average illegal isn't collecting unemployment weekly even though he paid into it. Further more, mexican labor isn't the biggest suck on health care in this country, it's us americans that don't have health care or claim poverty so we don't have to pay for health insurance. Many guys here like to carp about what's wrong with trade industries; how they can't make it because of "low ballers" or "mexicans are stealing" the work. Maybe worry less about these issues and instead how to better run your companies.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

I agree an efficient well managed company wouldn't have to break the law to make a buck..
The other popular argument that because someone else is screwing the system it makes breaking the law ok, doesn't make any sense either.
In 2002 one of the last government studies done stated 48% of illegal workers where paying taxes that they(the worker) will never get back in a form of a refund.That does put allot of money into the system.
That being said the article also stated there was no way to track the number accurately as all foreign workers both legal and illegal are grouped together in the system.And the government doesn't have an accurate count of how many illegal workers are actually in this country..
Illegals also pay local and state taxes with the purchase of food etc...That helps the local economy.They went on to say that what they pay in to social security and Medicare in no way covers the cost of medical care,education,added crime etc that comes along with the Illegals.It is a huge burden for the states with larger populations of illegals.
The above plus the law below I guess I don't understand the risk involved in breaking the law..

The Law against hiring or harboring illegal aliens states below:

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization or local government) commits a federal felony when he:

assists an alien whom he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him to obtain employment, 
encourages that alien to remain in the U.S., by referring him to an employer, by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or 
knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.
Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. 

It seems those who do have their reasons ,is it really worth the risk?


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## ajman21 (Oct 30, 2009)

to blowerman: yes but from my expience the smart illegals work in cash only so that they can avoid immigration. i refer to taking tax money is when they get hurt, or pregnant, go to the hospital; the hospital is by law required to provide treatment. Fyi my mother is in nursing and testifies first hand acounts. the hospital provides treatment then the illegal is discharged and the hospital trys to bill them no response the bill is wrote off. Gov doesn't get the revinuethey would have had that been a regular insured citizen. There so they raise taxes on those who have good incomes and pay taxes. Im all for helping out those who pay there taxes but cant afford insurance but that should be a individual choice.


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## tjctransport (Nov 22, 2008)

our labor crew is all mexicans. why? white guys don't want to do the work. 
these guys work their tails off, and don't complain. 
they all have social security numbers and drivers licenses, and get paid on the books. 
we tried hiring white laborers, but they complained it was to cold, or to hot, or the wind was blowing the wrong direction, the shovels were too heavy, the hours worked were to long, the work to hard, blah blah blah


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## Gmgbo (Jan 18, 2005)

hummer my post is still there. Read thru I never once said I employed them. Judging by your info you are a one truck outfit, but if you ever grow larger, see how many legal workers you get to wake up at 3 am to cleanup after a friday night snowstorm.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

The problem is the guys that hire them don"t want to pay. You will have no problems getting guys to get up at 3:00 am if you pay them a decent wage. There not going to show up for 8 to 10 dollars an hour


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## 24v6spd (Jan 18, 2009)

I think the I.C.E should put a bounty on illegals and pay a cash reward for each one someone turns in. It would be cheaper than all the money spent on them now.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

tjctransport;1440317 said:


> our labor crew is all mexicans. why? white guys don't want to do the work.
> these guys work their tails off, and don't complain.
> they all have social security numbers and drivers licenses, and get paid on the books.
> we tried hiring white laborers, but they complained it was to cold, or to hot, or the wind was blowing the wrong direction, the shovels were too heavy, the hours worked were to long, the work to hard, blah blah blah


This is similar to my situation, all have socials, licenses, and paid on the books.



Gmgbo;1440353 said:


> hummer my post is still there. Read thru I never once said I employed them. Judging by your info you are a one truck outfit, but if you ever grow larger, see how many legal workers you get to wake up at 3 am to cleanup after a friday night snowstorm.


Running machines usually isn't a problem getting guys, this post is really about shovelers. I noticed I never said anything about hiring illegals either, but he sure implied I did!



quigleysiding;1440367 said:


> The problem is the guys that hire them don"t want to pay. You will have no problems getting guys to get up at 3:00 am if you pay them a decent wage. There not going to show up for 8 to 10 dollars an hour


Well, now that you've solved what "the problem is," we can work on a solution...... Read most threads (not just this one) about hispanic labor (legal or not) and you'll see the common problem; finding general laborers that want to work at odd hours of the day or night. 
Read threads on wages; most guys agree that they pay what the market rate bears for that service. I've also posted that I pay above average hourly rates in my area, but have excellent workers. Now, that comment doesn't imply illegal or not. My lowest paid employee this past year was a college girl helping on the mulch blowing crew. Great worker, but you can't run a business off people that need to leave by the 3rd week of August for school.


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## BossPlow614 (May 27, 2009)

White Gardens;1439807 said:


> Even so it's against the law to 1099 any employee anyways unless they are a true sub-contractor.
> 
> ...


Just joining this, I was waiting for this to come in. I wonder how many companies completely screw their guys by trying to 1099 an employee.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

in the early 80s the canning plants need part time workers...they hired them in mexico, flew them here , housed them, paid them, sent them back,...where they were able to collect nys unemployment benefits!...all of this was done legally....now someone here figured a way to make money off these people and we have the current problems.
snow labor is usually a part time thing..therefore a decent wage and a time schedule that works for people is a must


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## hummer81 (Feb 1, 2010)

blowerman;1440415 said:


> This is similar to my situation, all have socials, licenses, and paid on the books.
> 
> Running machines usually isn't a problem getting guys, this post is really about shovelers. I noticed I never said anything about hiring illegals either, but he sure implied I did!
> 
> ...


It is good to hear that you are doing your hiring practices by the books. I, as most on this thread have no problems with your situation. This thread was not intended to debate racial employment in the industry (plenty of other illegal races), but the unethical/illegal hiring practices and the effects that they have on our industry and country as a whole. Yes I am a one truck outfit. Not sure if I ever wanna go farther than that seeing were the industry is going. Its every small business dream to continually expand, but if I felt the need to hire illegals to fill positions or to compete, that is were I would draw the line. I wouldn't try to rationalize it to make it OK in my own mind. It makes me wonder how many fake social security numbers are given to employers just to have 9 dependents claimed with no intentions of paying their portion of taxes.


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## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

tjctransport;1440317 said:


> our labor crew is all mexicans. why? white guys don't want to do the work.
> these guys work their tails off, and don't complain.
> they all have social security numbers and drivers licenses, and get paid on the books.
> we tried hiring white laborers, but they complained it was to cold, or to hot, or the wind was blowing the wrong direction, the shovels were too heavy, the hours worked were to long, the work to hard, blah blah blah


You guys are missing the point. This is not about the work ethic of white vs non white, It is about the hiring of ILLEGALS.


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## Kickin Grass (Oct 4, 2010)

Hey keep running those illegals. They have laws out there and if you get caught, your fined and out of biz. More work for the rest of us. For you guys that have them on the books and thinks your safe, your not. I got government contacts and I have to run I-9's on all employees. What that does is catches the bad socials, licenses and the other id's given to you. I have had white guys give me bad id's before. When I sub to other contractors I demand to see there I-9's or they don't work for me. You get rid of the illegals, cut the welfare off and people will go to work.


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## hummer81 (Feb 1, 2010)

Kickin Grass;1444689 said:


> Hey keep running those illegals. They have laws out there and if you get caught, your fined and out of biz. More work for the rest of us. For you guys that have them on the books and thinks your safe, your not. I got government contacts and I have to run I-9's on all employees. What that does is catches the bad socials, licenses and the other id's given to you. I have had white guys give me bad id's before. When I sub to other contractors I demand to see there I-9's or they don't work for me. You get rid of the illegals, cut the welfare off and people will go to work.


Wow, You can really get a good idea were guys stand on this issue with the many that usually give their 2 cents. Too bad they feel the need to keep their traps shut if their not legit. Someday they will be audited and say bye bye to their business.


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## linycctitan (Aug 13, 2007)

The part I can't figure out is, if in fact all of the "illegals" are costing our government so much, then why in the hell does the government keep building "hiring halls" for them? 95% of them don't use these places anyway because they are fearful that it's a trap! This equals even more wasted tax dollars! Just wrangle them all up and ship 'em home! -Rant over


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