# Am I liable?



## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I get a call from my cousin begging for me to plow and treat her lot (she manages a small company) because their owner never signed a plow guy. I told her I was way behind, but I'd get to it. Around 11am today I finally get a chance to breath, so I head over.

I have finished plowing, salting, and sidewalks. I'm getting ready to hop in my truck when someone asks if they can move their cars so I can hit the ice where they park (handful of employees). I told them if they want to move, I can hit it, or I'll just come back tonight.

They decide to move their vehicles, and while doing so, someone slips and is knocked unconscious. He comes to, but is taken to the hospital.

Technically I didn't have a contract, had no obligation to be there other than a text, and the salt was put down about 10 minutes before the accident, so it didn't even have time to try and work.

This is a prime example of why we all carry insurance, but I don't really want to take the hit. Is this on me, or their company for not having proper snow removal set up? Probably both


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Damn.
Looked at thread title.
Looked at username.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Talk to your lawyer, talk to your cousins and the owner, and most likely talk to your insurance company.

I am not a lawyer, but I'm guessing that the injured party's lawyer (if they pursue litigation) may try to include you in any suit.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

That sucks!
I would talk to lawyer and that is it, insurance is questionable but I wouldnt think its relevant for them to know until it's relevant. As for your cousin or the owners, you did them a favor and now it's trying to come back and bit you...I wouldnt speak to the owner and I wouldnt speak to your cousin in regards to this issue.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Without anything signed you have a better chance of getting out of it.. good luck


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Do they have your COI on file?

Every outfit that we work for or that I subcontract first thing requited is a W9 and a COI.

If they don't have your COI, then they will have to speak with your lawyer.

I would most defenitly not take a check from them just yet if you are worried. If they don't have a paper trail for services, you will have more of a leg to stand on. Ask your lawyer for sure


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Document your views and position, they were moving the cars so you could treat the ice. You aren't required to keep any lot ice free, even the ones you have under contract. You are required to do your due diligence and perform service. The fact that you are there treating an event proves you weren't negligent. Get some sleep,lawyers will start whatever they do, just stay quiet till you need to protect yourself.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

You know anyone can sue anyone obviously but... Your COI is the property owners way out when something does go wrong. In a nut shell if he gets an ambulance chaser lawyer they will go after the property owner first and since they have no contract or COI with you I think they're screwed... In my honest Harvard law degree experience...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

And on the other end of things Matt, don't get all worked up just yet.

There are still normal people out there that understand life happens and don't just go straight to the SUE EVERYONE button.

Just make sure you let your people know just to cover your assets just in case.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I think they're screwed


I agree, but I don't have the same level of law degrees as you...


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

As Phil said dont any money for it and dont do a contract. Hopefully you didnt even talk about money as that can be intent.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Take and bill for your service, I'm sure witnesses have you there anyway. Get your money and feel free to write up a contract after the fact. With a date after today.
This stuff happens, lawyers get paid to defend both sides, your arguement is pretty solid. I have a whole story on lawyers but it will take up your life.


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## NYH1 (Jan 10, 2009)

A lady my wife worked with slipped and fell on ice in the parking lot after work while leaving for the day. Workers comp covered everything. Maybe the same will happen in your situation.

NYH1.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

NYH1 said:


> A lady my wife worked with slipped and fell on ice in the parking lot after work while leaving for the day. Workers comp covered everything. Maybe the same will happen in your situation.
> 
> NYH1.


Did the employer also handle their own snow removal too?


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## NYH1 (Jan 10, 2009)

BUFF said:


> Did the employer also handle their own snow removal too?


Negative. They had all their mowing and plowing done by an outside source.

A few years later they sold the parking lot to another company that used part of it. They leased the rights to park in it and told everyone slips and falls in the parking lot would no longer be their responsibility because they no longer own said lot.

They also might have covered the lady just so their wasn't an issues. I don't know.

NYH1.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

NYH1 said:


> Negative. They had all their mowing and plowing done by an outside source.
> 
> A few years later they sold the parking lot to another company that used part of it. They leased the rights to park in it and told everyone slips and falls in the parking lot would no longer be their responsibility because they no longer own said lot.
> 
> ...


Gotcha


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

NYH1 said:


> A lady my wife worked with slipped and fell on ice in the parking lot after work while leaving for the day. Workers comp covered everything. Maybe the same will happen in your situation.
> 
> NYH1.


Good point...if the person was on the clock they're covered by WC. The WC carrier could technically go after your carrier. I'd notify my agent and not worry about it. Insurance companies have lawyers for this type of thing. If it gets that far.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I wouldnt notify your agent right away, depending on your relationship sometimes it activates a claim process.
Other times it doesn't...I would wait and see if anything happens, upon notification that you may be involved call your agent.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

Here is what I would do I that situation. Save the text for service request. I would than clearly write down in detail as to what happened. I would not bill for service. I would not notify your insurance about the incident into you are served the intention to sue letter. I know in my state it’s two years from date of incident.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Depends on your relationship with your agent. I have an excellent relationship with mine and he would rather know sooner than later. Just a heads-up. He won't initiate a claim until there is actually a claim made. 

I still think when the patient tells them it happened at work that it will start a WC claim. 

As an aside\rant...people that park like District Attorneys and when you show up they move their vehicles so you can plow where they parked. Stupid, blooming idiots just park in a "normal" spot to begin with...for instance NEXT to other cars. I had 2 at one account yesterday, I only plowed 1 of the spots.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I have a group home where they park the transport bus across the handicapped spots overnight at the front door. The most important area to have clean. The first psw in then brushes all the snow off into the spots and moves it. Repeated reminders don't help..." Well, I didn't think it was going to snow..."


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

JMHConstruction said:


> They decide to move their vehicles, and while doing so, someone slips and is knocked unconscious. He comes to, but is taken to the hospital.
> 
> Technically I didn't have a contract...
> 
> Is this on me, or their company for not having proper snow removal set up? Probably both


Listen to Mr. Markus, he has everything correct. Don't freak out and don't call a lawyer. You did nothing wrong. Go about your business. Like Ajlawn says they will first have to file suit against you... something you can't prevent anyways. If it goes that far... and it most likely won't...it will be up to a judge or magistrate to determine your liability/culpability.

On a sidenote lawyers don't give a rat about liability. They only care about collectibility.



Mark Oomkes said:


> Good point...if the person was on the clock they're covered by WC. The WC carrier could technically go after your carrier.


This is a great point Mark brings up. This is called subrogation. Something everyone here should understand. This is a normal and common practice between insurance companies when there is a claim to tender. When reviewing your contracts, and before you sign it strikeout any language that requires or requests you to waive your subrogation. Don't ever agreed to that. That, along with the typical unfair indemnification verbiage that makes you responsible for everything under the sun. Your clients are counting on your ignorance. Understand what you're agreeing to before you sign your contracts. If you don't know what you're signing, you are your own worst enemy.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Subrogation ?????....My daughter didn’t appreciate me waking her up at 5:30 am axing what this means...Could you hold off on these big word posts till later in the day from now on please...


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

This is why I am selective on "favors" or good deeds. 
Call me a Richard but these are the classificsions I will help...
-Old people 
-Kids
-Handicap people
-Adults with kids in treacherous conditions like the side of the highway, etc.
-Good looking females


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm sure in that order too...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Thanks guys. I know there's nothing I can do, or could have done. Sucked seeing it happen. Not that I would want it to happen at all, I'm glad it happened here, where I had no control over the situation, and not one of my jobs that I had neglected.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I'm sure in that order too...


I'm sure you can relate???


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

JMHConstruction said:


> Thanks guys. I know there's nothing I can do, or could have done. Sucked seeing it happen. Not that I would want it to happen at all, I'm glad it happened here, where I had no control over the situation, and not one of my jobs that I had neglected.


That sucks man. Get your money, you were there, you did the work. Your not going to lie about being there, theres witnesses, get paid. Take a breath, and let it sit. The business was negligent for not having services in place. The slip occurred on a non serviced part of the lot, so you didnt create the hazard. Go cash the check.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Matt, I did not read the upper post, document everything definitely save any text message from your cousin. Don't keep it a secret from your insurance and make sure they know where the fall took place was not serviced by you. Don't sweat it if any ambulance chasers come around tell them to reach out to your insurance company and don't let any fast talkers question you, they will handle it.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

JMHConstruction said:


> Thanks guys. I know there's nothing I can do, or could have done. Sucked seeing it happen. Not that I would want it to happen at all, I'm glad it happened here, where I had no control over the situation, and not one of my jobs that I had neglected.


What until you have to help pull a pregnant lady out from under her car. 3" heels in an ice storm turned out to be a poor decision on her part.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

http://thechive.com/2018/11/26/single-patch-of-ice-annihilates-an-entire-family-video/?jwsource=cl


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> http://thechive.com/2018/11/26/single-patch-of-ice-annihilates-an-entire-family-video/?jwsource=cl


One of the brewery's I frequent plays Chive TV clips, it's pretty entertaining.


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

JMH, you need to report this to your GL carrier "for records only". If nothing comes of it, no harm done as your loss run will reflect for records only. If a claim does arise, you have put the carrier on notice. Good luck.
Ben/Insurance


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## Taxbully (Aug 4, 2018)

I would not notify my insurance carrier, unless your agent will NOT start a claim. My experience was when I contacted my home owners carrier to check coverage (did NOT start a claim) when a falling limb ripped the power lines and meter off the house in ice storm (I had $500 deductible), I ended up paying the $780 cost out of pocket ---never submitted a claim. Yet the incident was still treated as a claim and affected my rates for 3 years.
As far as your potential liability, people should realize that snow and ice are slippery and naturally hazardous and should take due care and caution in the winter after a snow event as it is an "obvious hazard". In fact----------*Michigan law* holds that individuals should realize that snow and ice are slippery and naturally hazardous and should take appropriate action to avoid such hazards. Further, the *Michigan Supreme Court* has held that a premises possessor does NOT have a legal duty to reduce the hazards of snow and ice if its accumulation is open and obvious, and is only required to make reasonable attempts to reduce the hazard within a reasonable amount of time after accumulation. *Mann v Shusteric Enters, Inc, 470 Mich 320 (2004)*. And given that the business had called you for snow removal, would show that they were attempting to reduce the winter hazards in a reasonable amount of time, a huge benefit to their defense.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

technically you get sued (or held responsible more correctly) on 1) having the responsibility to act and 2) failure to do so.

So if you HAD the contract and it wasnt serviced in a timely manner you would be responsible. But in this case the owner of the lot was holding the responsibility ball and failed to act, so the liability is elsewhere.

TECHNICALLY

like was said above, anyone can sue you for whatever they feel like.
Mcdonalds was sued for not enough napkins and only giving out limited ketchup.
You could be sued because your truck color is offensive... 
its all relative.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

So far nothing has about from it. I am also still waiting on payment...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

JMHConstruction said:


> So far nothing has about from it. I am also still waiting on payment...


I had to go back and read your original post, just my opinion here, don't work for relatives. They allways think its a favor.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Randall Ave said:


> I had to go back and read your original post, just my opinion here, don't work for relatives. They allways think its a favor.


That's my rule 99% of the time - no relatives, no friends

I broke it because of her desperation to get the lot cleared. Then it bit me in the ass. It's not her I'm dealing with to get the check. Luckily it was a small lot. I know the guy who painted and did some other work for their office, and he was paid very fast. Not sure why the woman is making excuses. I've heard a long list. Supposedly it's in the mail (as of Monday), and in their defense I haven't had time to check the PO box in the last 2 days. Hopefully it's there.


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## Taxbully (Aug 4, 2018)

Given that your cousin is the manager, not the owner, the business owner is who owes you, unless your cousin was not authorized to hire you. 
I tell my friends, "friendship is friendship, business is business I'm not a Charity", so I expect payment and I expect them to bill me for services they render, especially in their profession. If your friends will not pay you, I would not considered them friends.
I'm the oldest of 12, 11 brothers and sisters, my policy is to help my siblings and give them an invoice. If they pay,fine, (6 out 11 always pay, 3 out of the other 5 do more than 50% of the time) if not,they are last on the list. but I really do not keep track.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Opinions are like nevermind, Real life experience is another story. JMO I would not hide it from my carrier. If something does come about at least you look like your not running and hiding from it like you were negligent.

Your carrier will have the best attorneys money can buy. Don't talk to anybody tell them to contact your carrier no matter who they claim to be. My carrier gave some :terribletowel:$60K just to settle, they claimed it would cost them that for litigation. I was pissed but had no control of it. This was a homeless guy that ran into the side of my truck with a pedal bike.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BTW, yes I was plowing and who rides a petal bike in a storm.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG said:


> BTW, yes I was plowing and who rides a petal bike in a storm.


Lots of people around here...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Lots of people around here...


 The crackheads weren't even out that early morning, It was coming down I did't see that :terribletowel:coming. :laugh:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ben/Insurance said:


> MH, you need to report this to your GL carrier "for records only".





Taxbully said:


> I would not notify my insurance carrier, unless your agent will NOT start a claim.


So we have an insurance guy telling the OP he SHOULD notify his agent and Taxbully stating he shouldn't because his agent screwed up on a claim of his for under $1,000...actually a whopping $280 after deductible. You can't even walk through an ER door $280. Or see a doctor for under $1,000.

I said it from the start, you tell your agent what happened. NO claim is started until the victim makes one. Matt can't start a claim based on seeing someone fall at one of his accounts. The business owner can't start a claim. The agent can't. Only the victim can.

As for lawsuits...how about the dental assistant that sued (and won) Subway because their footlong subs weren't 12"?


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> As for lawsuits...how about the dental assistant that sued (and won) Subway because their footlong subs weren't 12"?


Under that pretext we all would have been sued a time or 2


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Lots of people around here...


Here too.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So we have an insurance guy telling the OP he SHOULD notify his agent and Taxbully stating he shouldn't because his agent screwed up on a claim of his for under $1,000...actually a whopping $280 after deductible. You can't even walk through an ER door $280. Or see a doctor for under $1,000.
> 
> I said it from the start, you tell your agent what happened. NO claim is started until the victim makes one. Matt can't start a claim based on seeing someone fall at one of his accounts. The business owner can't start a claim. The agent can't. Only the victim can.
> 
> As for lawsuits...how about the dental assistant that sued (and won) Subway because their footlong subs weren't 12"?


What Matt's carrier and the PO going to want sue there self? This is correct the Women that took the dump has to take action.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So we have an insurance guy telling the OP he SHOULD notify his agent and Taxbully stating he shouldn't because his agent screwed up on a claim of his for under $1,000...actually a whopping $280 after deductible. You can't even walk through an ER door $280. Or see a doctor for under $1,000.


Also, his example....

* when a falling limb ripped the power lines and meter off the house in ice storm (I had $500 deductible), I ended up paying the $780 cost out of pocket ---never submitted a claim. Yet the incident was still treated as a claim and affected my rates for 3 years.*

....has nothing to do with snow & ice management liabilities.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So we have an insurance guy telling the OP he SHOULD notify his agent and Taxbully stating he shouldn't because his agent screwed up on a claim of his for under $1,000...actually a whopping $280 after deductible. You can't even walk through an ER door $280. Or see a doctor for under $1,000.
> 
> I said it from the start, you tell your agent what happened. NO claim is started until the victim makes one. Matt can't start a claim based on seeing someone fall at one of his accounts. The business owner can't start a claim. The agent can't. Only the victim can.
> 
> As for lawsuits...how about the dental assistant that sued (and won) Subway because their footlong subs weren't 12"?


If you can be sued for overstating size....There's a few former girlfriends and my wife that could haul me into court...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> Also, his example....
> 
> * when a falling limb ripped the power lines and meter off the house in ice storm (I had $500 deductible), I ended up paying the $780 cost out of pocket ---never submitted a claim. Yet the incident was still treated as a claim and affected my rates for 3 years.*
> 
> ....has nothing to do with snow & ice management liabilities.


Well...yeah...it's more like PLUTO! since he was the one that owned the property AND the one that had held the insurance.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

FredG said:


> BTW, yes I was plowing and who rides a petal bike in a storm.


Bicycle messengers. 
My neighbors across the alley bike to work year round. He manages a bike shop and she works downtown, 2 miles away.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

EWSplow said:


> Bicycle messengers.
> My neighbors across the alley bike to work year round. He manages a bike shop and she works downtown, 2 miles away.


Riding a bike in a storm is not common around here, I'm sure they do in some Cities. Only 2 miles I think I would walk if I did not have transportation. Just to dangerous in my mind.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

FredG said:


> Riding a bike in a storm is not common around here, I'm sure they do in some Cities. Only 2 miles I think I would walk if I did not have transportation. Just to dangerous in my mind.


The neighbors have a car, they just prefer to bike. 
Bicycle messengers can beat traffic in most cases.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Lots of people around here...


See a lot of this type of bike on the roads when it's snowing. This one is a REEB which is Beer spelled bassackwards, Oskar Blues Brewery's owner is big time Mtn Biker, has a team and builds bikes locally. His bikes average $3500.00 each


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

EWSplow said:


> The neighbors have a car, they just prefer to bike.
> Bicycle messengers can beat traffic in most cases.


I understand! What are they waiting for someone to flatten them hope they live and sue. For gods sake they think they own the road and hard not to flatten one in the summer. Not to bad where they have bike lanes. WTF is a bicycle messenger?

My Warden or anybody in my family tried to ride a bike in a storm they would be leaving with three boots. Two on there feet and one of mine in there, nevermind.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BUFF said:


> See a lot of this type of bike on the roads when it's snowing. This one is a REEB which is Beer spelled bassackwards, Oskar Blues Brewery's owner is big time Mtn Biker, has a team and builds bikes locally. His bikes average $3500.00 each
> View attachment 188515


 You got one and ride in a storm?


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

again, let's try to keep the discussion on track


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> If you can be sued for overstating size....There's a few former girlfriends and my wife that could haul me into court...


Nevermind...


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## Jacobmb (Dec 3, 2013)

JMHConstruction said:


> I get a call from my cousin begging for me to plow and treat her lot (she manages a small company) because their owner never signed a plow guy. I told her I was way behind, but I'd get to it. Around 11am today I finally get a chance to breath, so I head over.


Just wondering who was paying for the service your cousin or her boss? Does your cousin have authorization as the property representative to hire a contractor for service?

I always make one time clients sign a one time service agreement/waiver, with the follow:

"The Property owner accepts any and all responsibility and will hold the snow removal operator and his/her agents harmless for any future liabilities for; ice formations, placed or stored snow, or melted
run off or refreezing, snow piled, plowed or otherwise - that may cause injury or physical peril. The customer understands that slippery and icy conditions may exist before and after work is completed and agrees to hold harmless the company its owners employees and agents for personal injuries resulting from slip and fall accidents, vehicular accidents, loss of income or enjoyment or use of property due to icy conditions. Ice accumulation, snow, or other acts of god. Contractor is not responsible for any death, injury, loss or damage to persons or property and the property owner or representative agrees to hold the Contractor harmless in any and all claims brought forward."

Client must read, initial, sign and date or I drive off and do not service.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Jacobmb said:


> Just wondering who was paying for the service your cousin or her boss? Does your cousin have authorization as the property representative to hire a contractor for service?
> 
> I always make one time clients sign a one time service agreement/waiver, with the follow:
> 
> ...


Yes, my cousin has the power to hire/fire contractors. I believe the story was they moved buildings, and didn't get a contractor. Or they thought someone else already did. Honestly I'm not sure the reasoning.

I never do those one time calls or even flag downs, so I didn't have anything written up. This was just me trying to help out family. Live and learn...


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## Jacobmb (Dec 3, 2013)

JMHConstruction said:


> Yes, my cousin has the power to hire/fire contractors. I believe the story was they moved buildings, and didn't get a contractor. Or they thought someone else already did. Honestly I'm not sure the reasoning.
> 
> I never do those one time calls or even flag downs, so I didn't have anything written up. This was just me trying to help out family. Live and learn...


I hear yah! Likelyhood of a suit being filed is small. Likelyhood of their insurance looking to blame you even smaller. In any case I wouldnt lose a wink of sleep.

J


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