# driveway markers



## FRANLANDRY (Sep 12, 2005)

does anyone know were i can get driveway markers CHEAP in bulk i check home depot but they want 1.99 ea what a rip off


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## bam (Jan 14, 2001)

fiberglass innovations make all different lengths of the markers. they have a 4" reflective band and come in org or ylw.

its probably the same product at Depot, but they are probably buying mass quantities for cheap. I bought a little over 3000 this year and I think they were 1.29 each. Got the first order in six days and the second order came three days after I called.

also i know some companies cut down pvc and then paint the tips, but what everyone always forgets is the labor involved in making your own. For alittle over a dollar apiece and being able to sink it in the ground with no tools, I think the fiberglass is the way to go. and after long hours if you hit one, most of the time they flex and spring right back up, where a pvc pipe would break and be gone.


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## Joe Lombardo (Oct 20, 2003)

Have you tried Angelo's Supply on the internet? Bought some fiberglass markers 3 feet tall for about .50 each.


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## DaySpring Services (Feb 1, 2005)

I use 1x3's and spray paint the top 6 inches orange. Buy 8' and cut them in half. They end up costing about 40 cents per stake.Fiberglass are nice, but they can be harder to see imo.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Go to the lumber yard and pick up pointed lath. They cost me $21 for a bundle of 50 (42 cents ea). They are 4 feet in length and easy to put in. Flag or paint the top 6 inches. I charge each customer 50 per stake and $10 for putting them up.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

Joe Lombardo said:


> Have you tried Angelo's Supply on the internet? Bought some fiberglass markers 3 feet tall for about .50 each.


Just so you know, these are fiberglass markers but they have a smaller diameter than the metal tipped ones with the reflective tape that are sold at the box stores. They will snap if you plow over them and are not as visible.

I too buy mine at Fiberglass Innovations on the web.

I no longer charge the customer for staking, just build it into the price of plowing, after-all its so we don't wreck their lawn and helps prevent us from doing some free spring clean-up.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

ECS said:


> Go to the lumber yard and pick up pointed lath. They cost me $21 for a bundle of 50 (42 cents ea). They are 4 feet in length and easy to put in. Flag or paint the top 6 inches. I charge each customer 50 per stake and $10 for putting them up.


You charge for the stakes and installing. Thats a trip.

Do you charge them when you need a new pair of gloves too?

Comon.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

j, thomas sells plastic stakes for $150.00 for a case of 500. at least if u run over plastic they bounce back up about 80% of the time. i also used the angelos one and they work great


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## 2_Djinn (Dec 20, 2004)

Yeah i had to swing in lowes to get 10 stakes the other day and really enjoyed getting taken for 1.79 each. But for my high end residential and small commercial i prefer the real nice orange reflective ones with the little rubber cap on top. 

Other accounts 1/2" pvc with paint on the tips is pretty good. We break alot of them but there cheap to make anyways. I too am looking for a good place to get fiberglass markers cheap.


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## FGLMOW (Sep 30, 2006)

Try Mills supply they have economy markers 32 in-42in .48cents and up.


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## Pearcelawn (Nov 6, 2006)

Does J.Thomas or Mills supply have a website to order from?


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

hey pearce, welcome to plowsite, nice to see another from Roch on.


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## imdawrlus (Sep 13, 2005)

why even use them?? i thnk their a pain....i dont use them...but i have a couple customers that put them up on their driveways..i just makes it harder for me when i have to plow them down to make a pile.


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## mrbrickman (Nov 13, 2006)

you goooootttta use them especially if you dont have curbs & have tons of islands or have areas where a fire hydrant or bumper blocks need to be id'ed .....

here at brickman we make each of our subs or us ourselves go out and stake every site we can before the first snow....we charge for the service which is usually an extra hour or 2 billed into the first snow or....we bill depending on the amout of stakes used and add it to the contract cost...just sucks when someone takes them out....1.20 a stake and when 100 are missing, isnt fun...

another site of 250 single houses we care for had them & because the people thought the orange stake identifying a sewer grate or hydrant looked ugly they were going around and removing them hiding them in their garages...

asked many times to have them returned in letters, but none were, ended up charging the HOA 2.50 a stake to replace them all......this year hopefully we wont have those problems

...but in any case, if you for some unknown reason cant be in your plow and have someone else take over, its nice having the piece of mind youre not going to be buying bags of grass seed when the snow melts


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## Pearcelawn (Nov 6, 2006)

*Hello to Grn Mtn*

Hello to you too. New to the site and loving it. Found it through lawnsite. Been on there for a while. No time to post till now,too busy trying to get the leaves up. Hope to have a good season myself and good luck to you on your season as well! Hopefully Rochester will get buried and we can make some serious scratch!! payup


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## crazymike (Oct 22, 2004)

what's wrong with good old fashioned wood stakes?

Paint the tops red or some different colour so your staff knows what sites are yours.

Stakes are only really needed for the first few plows. Once things are going you 

a) know the lots 
b) have snowbanks telling you where the lot ends.

And with wood you don't feel bad when they are stolen/broken, etc...


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## andrewlawnrangr (Dec 3, 2004)

*Charge for stake and Install*

Of course I charge for reflective stakes and Install and removal........DONT YOU????..i have high end houses that i plow and the people asked for them." can u get some of the snow reflective sticks and charge me for them"..i say yes i have some at my shop.. and get it done that day....

i charge my hourly rate ($50.00) for labor total starting at the shop.. to the cust. house install and return to shop.

hey everyone should get paid for their time unless ur not trying to make money


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

imdawrlus said:


> why even use them?? i thnk their a pain....i dont use them...but i have a couple customers that put them up on their driveways..i just makes it harder for me when i have to plow them down to make a pile.


I agree to a large extent. I met the guy I sub for at a property I did for him last year with high curbs and 2 inch cobblestone poured inside the curb areas and he had these hollow cheesy 2 ft markers I was trying to install while he took pics. Talk about a pita. I found it a waste of time and silly at best. First storm they will all be plowed over.

I use them on my resi's very sparingly.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

andrewlawnrangr said:


> Of course I charge for reflective stakes and Install and removal........DONT YOU????..i have high end houses that i plow and the people asked for them." can u get some of the snow reflective sticks and charge me for them"..i say yes i have some at my shop.. and get it done that day....
> 
> i charge my hourly rate ($50.00) for labor total starting at the shop.. to the cust. house install and return to shop.
> 
> hey everyone should get paid for their time unless ur not trying to make money


Must be nice if you can sleep at night..

When Macdonalds starts charging me an extra fee to wrap my hamburger then I'll go elsewhere.

Some of the things that go on in this industry simply amaze me.

Do you bill the customer for the cost of the cup of coffee you bring with you while installing the stakes too?

Not trying to be a dick here but some of you guys must have too much work and too many clients if you treat them the way you do.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

The thing thats cool about hearing all these things a lot of you do is I use them as a sales tool to the extent |I explain to the customer theres no hidden costs, no big contracts, No ripoffs, and no shenanigans.

So far the estimates I get I close because they appreciate the no nonesense approach.

If the lawns baked like a steak in the middle of July, I drive by and pass it up now and then as a courtesy. They all respond positively to that. I dont just run my mower over it breaking and damaging the crowns and bill them.

I get out of the truck, and finish what the plow couldn't reach and do a complete job for the price quoted.

The price of stakes and the time it costs you to install them so you dont damage the property or your crew can see whats up is a cost of doing business and not an additional expense that needs to be billed independently.

Crazy. This.


But like I said. If you can get away with it, and keep the job when I bid it against you.....fine.

Here I come.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

I go around and stake my drives as none of them are straigh. I like the wooden lath because if I have to run them over to make more room, no damage done. I charge them for my time to put them up, why not. It is my fuel to get there and my time and fuel to go to buy them. If you are not charging for them, then that is because you are charging too much to begin with. I charge a fair amount for the plowing, and a fair amount for any shoveling, and a fair amount for the snow stakes. I pick them up in the spring at no charge when I go to do my spring cleanups, and store them at their place. When the next season rolls around, sometimes they are there to use again and sometimes not. If I have to replace them, they pay for it. I may charge them, but I doubt if I am even breaking even on them. The cost me 42 cents, a can of florescent paint or flagging tape added to each one brings the cost up to what I can guestimate to 50 cents. I have to go to town to get the stakes, paint, ribbon, 8 miles each way plus the time in the store. If you wish to give your fuel, time and money away then so be it. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am doing this to make money, not to loose money or to give it away. And no I don't charge them for my coffee or my gloves. That is for my person and not their property, big difference.


> The thing thats cool about hearing all these things a lot of you do is I use them as a sales tool to the extent |I explain to the customer theres no hidden costs, no big contracts, No ripoffs, and no shenanigans.


 What ripoff. I put the price of the stakes on my invoice as well as my $10 service charge. No hidden costs, no ripoff, no shenanigans. Never had a complaint and doubt I ever will.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Well. Like I said. Just one more sales tool for me and I hope the guys in my area charge for it too cuz I never will, and i'll be bringing it up with each and every estimate I give from now till the day I drop dead.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Yep, good sales tool telling them you will work for free and give away supples, (which in fact you are not, because they are figured into your price per push).  
Maybe that is what works where you are, but not here. I guess I could just raise my rates per storm and hide it and tell them I will do it for free. That is the same thing as far as I am concerned, which in that case it is a hidden ripoff and a shenanigan as you are charging for them throughout the whole season, each and every storm, where I am upfront enough to charge them once to put them up.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

So what you're saying is you're a lowballer and need extra fees?

Nice.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I was going to say it but wanted to wait for you to.

And you did.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> So what you're saying is you're a lowballer and need extra fees?
> 
> Nice.
> 
> ...


I am far from lowballing and I am getting as much or more than anyone else in the valley. I beleive in not hiding anything and believe in charging them for my services. They don't mind paying so why should I mind charging?

I am in the service industry and charge them for my service. Is the extra fee I charge going to break me? Not hardly. Is paying for the stakes going to break me? Not likely. I take care of their property and they take care of me, but I am not going to drive all over the valley and work for nothing and they do not expect me to. If they catch me in the middle of the day and want to shoot the ****, that is fine by me, as they get charged for my time to **** chat also. Time is money! We are selling our service and our time.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

.....well. I guess I dont need to argue my point since you're doing all my work for me. No further questions your honor.

*


ECS said:



I am in the service industry and charge them for my service. If they catch me in the middle of the day and want to shoot the ****, that is fine by me, as they get charged for my time to **** chat also. Time is money! We are selling our service and our time.

Click to expand...

*


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## Big Dog D (Oct 1, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> The thing thats cool about hearing all these things a lot of you do is I use them as a sales tool to the extent |I explain to the customer theres no hidden costs, no big contracts, No ripoffs, and no shenanigans.
> 
> So far the estimates I get I close because they appreciate the no nonesense approach.
> 
> ...


They are additional costs and they should be recoupped! Wether you recoup them directly(billing for them and install) or inderectly (attribut a certain portion of your price to reclaim their cost) it is money and labor out of your pocket and you should be charging for it.

As for your previous statement about McDonalds, if you think for one second that they are wrapping you burgers for free, I have some nice land for you to buy.

You probably closed the majority of those sales you were talking about beacuse you were the cheapest because you are giving the store away!!!!


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Well then build the markers into the cost if thats the case. People hate additional fees and frankly the markers arent there for the clients good, they are there for the contractors good. Just like all of your contracts....they have Zero in them thats beneficial to the client but Everything thats designed to protect the contractor and you guys even try to release yourselves of liability. lol

As if a lawyer wouldnt eat that for lunch.

I actually am high priced but I dont have to lowball then add additional charges for this and that. One stop shopping no muss no fuss and like I said I close 90 to 95% of estimates given.....getting the estimates is the hard part but with all Im learning here you can be sure my next marketing plan will include a lot of what we discuss here and how |I do my business differently than most of you.

Of course Macdonalds builds in the wrapper....but if they wanted to charge you for it as an extra fee....youd ***** and cry up a storm and so would I.

Like I said.....Its classic lowballing strategy....Just like the stuff sold on tv commercials where itsa wonderful price, hell they even give you two of them and a bottle of beer. But then they hit you last minute with a big assed shipping and handling fee.

Same thing here.

Do you enjoy all the extra fees and surcharges on your phone bill?

I didnt think so.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Tree company comes to do a removal in front of your home.

They park the hi ranger and chipper truck.

Then they place a men working sign in the road, and put up some saftey cones.

Then they add that to your bill.

Then you come out and give them a cold drink, they stop working for fifteen minutes and chat with you while on break.

Then they add that to your bill as an additional charge.

Time is money.

Like I said....if you can get away with it....go for it.

Ill never conduct business like that


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## crazymike (Oct 22, 2004)

I have to side with Arbor.

You would be furious if they charged you to put out pylons.

And do you make them get stakes? What if the customer says NO, I don't want that service?

The stakes are there to prevent you from damaging the customers lawn, nothing more.

There is no reason for the customer to want stakes other than you being careless. A few tears in the lawn are inevidable. Wether from you, kids shoveling, or someone driving over the edge, it happens. Charge them to fix the grass in the spring if you want more money out of them. But I can't see charging them for stakes. Especially when some of you are getting ripped for well over $1.50 a stake. Why should the customer pay $1.50 for a reflective stake? I've never used anything but a wooden stake and never had a problem.

And you can get them from a tree supply store for dirt cheap.

Do you charge your customer more because you choose to use a blizzard plow instead of a meyer?


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Thanks. I felt a little alone in here and I know maybe Im a little radical but im also a consumer and am sick of hidden fees and being nickle and dimed to death, and the people I talk too that want service are as well.

You all have to remember. Each time a customer gets a checkbook out to pay for snow removal is hacks them off whether they are getting a good deal, good service or not. 

Lawn cares a little different...people like a nice lawn and dont mind paying for that as much.

So why not make the trasaction as easy on them as possible.

I cant argue with the fact that some of you are very successful and have been and have always done business this way. Im a small player....been in the game as it were 25 years plus....and only for a little over a year solo, but Ive been in management and seen all the tricks and scammy deals that I ever need to see.

Well I thought that before but honestly some of the things that have recently come to light still amaze me.

Like I said. You're successful doing it one way....dont fix it if it aint broke I guess, but Im telling you....If I come along with my pitch, and my price....I'll steal that customer 90% of the time.

Getting the opportunity to give my pitch and re educate the potential client is key.

And getting that call for an estimate is the most difficult part of each of our jobs regardless of tactical approach to our individual business models.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

llm an arbor, you give trolls a bad name...
(people who live in the mitt)(under the bridge)

In one post you call a bunch of guys lazy and over priced.
You say your new to this.(plowing)
You say you don't have any customers..

Then you post this.


llm ann arbor "I actually am high priced but I dont have to lowball then add additional charges for this and that. One stop shopping no muss no fuss and like I said I close 90 to 95% of estimates given.....getting the estimates is the hard part but with all Im learning here you can be sure my next marketing plan will include a lot of what we discuss here and how |I do my business differently than most of you"


Yes, The customer pays for everything I own and do!

Where does your money come form ?? 

Ever hear the faze... batteries not included..... :waving:

Do you give things away or do you pass on the cost to your customers??

Do you have a storm clause in your short contract... so there is an addioional fee for plowing.
Not just a flat per push rate is it?


llm ann arbor " but Im telling you....If I come along with my pitch, and my price....I'll steal that customer 90% of the time.
Getting the opportunity to give my pitch and re educate the potential client is key."

This is snow removal/plowing!!!
I wish you did live closer so you could go to each of my customers and give them your slick sales pitch..
They get bids from other companies each year yet they stay with "my over paid lazy ass"

Reeducate people on snow plowing??? How dumb do you think your customers are??


Yet, you say that you plowed for someone else for years and yet did not manage to take any customers with you when you quit.? where was that slick sales pitch when you need it...

My customers call me, I do not go out and solicit customers with a slick sales pitch....
It turns off most people what a slick salesman comes a knocking..


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

http://www.j-thomas.com/


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## crazymike (Oct 22, 2004)

I just don't understand why people need to bill their customers $1.50 a stake, plus installation when wooden stakes will do.

Even a super complex small commercial property wouldn't cost more than $20 in stakes, and would take 20 minutes max to stake. So why not stake it while doing your route check (I would hope you check all sites before the season to check for preexisting damage, etc... so you don't get blamed)

It's not going to hurt me to eat a $20 (realisitcally $3-5 for most residential) cost to prevent property damage, and you won't make any money charging them for it. In fact, it would cost more to invoice them for a one off $5 fee than it's worth.

Personally, you do what you want. There is more snow to plow than I can handle and the same goes for you, just trying to understand your reasoning, maybe I'm missing out on something.


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## Pearcelawn (Nov 6, 2006)

*Thanks paphillips*

Thanks for the website.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

SnoFarmer said:


> llm an arbor, you give trolls a bad name...
> (people who live in the mitt)(under the bridge)
> 
> In one post you call a bunch of guys lazy and over priced.
> ...


Never said I dont have any customers.

Never even said I did snow removal for someone else. Ive been in the green industry for 25 years.

I didnt take customers with me SF. Would you prefer I stole some from the people Ive worked for behind their back?? Is this what you did to get started?

Of course I have graduated prices and it costs more for more/heavy snows.

My customers aren't dumb. Thats why they are MY| customers.

I wish you were here too and gave me the opportunity to bid your clients. Id take at least half of them away from you S|F, and I never said a "slick" sales pitch. Just honest bids for a complete job, with little hassle and No burdens placed on the client.

Remember. You're the one who doesn't do walks, porches or detailing. Even for your parents.

I dont know what a troll has to do with anything.

Yes I give away some services and No I do not pass each little cost of doing business on to my clients and they appreciate that.

I just started in business for myself one year ago and have a combination of my own work and some sub contracted work and one day hopefully sooner than later ill fly completely solo SF.

Im glad you get away with doing an incomplete job so the customer has to go out and clean up after you. Im glad they call you. If I was a consumer and you did the kind of incomplete job you claim to do and passed on each little driveway stake and each little silly cost of doing business youd never do my snow I can tell you that.

And yes. I mean re educate because some of the work I see, and some of the work guys likr you claim to getaway with leads me to believe the customer thinks thats the way everyone in this business is, and I know they are wrong if they think that.

Theres a lot of guys that do a complete job....yes...even for their parents, and guys that dont nickle and dime the client to death.

You sound much like you offer your clients the lesser of two evils, or comperable evil.

What else do you want to know.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

What a joke,Charging for markers? and billing time to talk to customers? this industry has gone to pot.

I use scrap thin rebar from job sites,paint the visable tops bright orange and pound em' in,its cheap,tough as nails and last years upon years.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

murray83 said:


> What a joke,Charging for markers? and billing time to talk to customers? this industry has gone to pot.


Thats what Im sayin. But then again I think half the stuff people post her about their businesses is a load of lies.

Like doing 80 resis with one truck etc etc.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

It can be done,the condition of his work would be sloppy.

Last year I had 20 accounts,14 Residential,1 twelve unit appartment building and 5 free ones I do out of respect.

Lost the appartment to a guy who'd plow it all year for free as long as he mowed it that summer.....I have 2 of the 14 residentials left due to guys bidding like morons and snowblowers.

And 1 of my 5 free ones passed on and another isn't looking so good,I've offered to clean up the yard and spruce up the house in my free time for the only child just in case,hope that won't happen though.

Decided to stay low key this season and look forward to next and take it from there.7 accounts is good enough for me.

Anyway,good luck on your end.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

crazymike said:


> The stakes are there to prevent you from damaging the customers lawn, nothing more.
> 
> There is no reason for the customer to want stakes other than you being careless.
> 
> ...


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## dylan (Dec 21, 1999)

Here are mine. Yellow plastic, flexible and Reflective and with my number.
Pretty cheap to make, takes a few hours.


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## mrbrickman (Nov 13, 2006)

hey everyone dont we all make money here? some more than others right? we all have our own ideas and methods to our madness...we should all respect that i think

since joining this site ive never seen so much opinionbashing and downright negative energy..

i mean its not a simple "i dissagree with you there"... its a........ "what the hell you stupid idiot"

maybe im out of line...or maybe all the snow we all talk about here has iced over many of our attitudes...


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

murray83 said:


> It can be done,the condition of his work would be sloppy.
> 
> Last year I had 20 accounts,14 Residential,1 twelve unit appartment building and 5 free ones I do out of respect.


You hear that?????

This guy does some for free. Probably for some older folks or people that cant other wise get it done themselves.

I bet Murray sleeps like a baby at night.

Do any of you?

Right on M. Good for you and I hope your generosity pays offin spades. Trouble is. Most people are self centered ruthless and selfish like some of our associates here.

negative energy?

You havent seen anything yet.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

ECS said:


> crazymike said:
> 
> 
> > The stakes are there to prevent you from damaging the customers lawn, nothing more.
> ...


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Ah easy come easy go,If you worry about all the lost work out there u'd be in a mental institution.

One thing I learned as a kid is treat others like you wish to be treated yourself.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

400 dollar investment to make 5000.

Thats good business.

Plus itll piss off some other contractor. Which right now is priceless.[/QUOTE]

I missed something. What was the $400 investment?


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Yeah. You're right, and a lot of the crap business practices I see here give me a lot of ideas.
> 
> Thanks for the tips.
> 
> ...


With comments like these, you are worried about the way some may be bringing down the industry because of charging for marking drives.


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## oman1999 (Sep 14, 2006)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Thats what Im sayin. But then again I think half the stuff people post her about their businesses is a load of lies.
> 
> Like doing 80 resis with one truck etc etc.


LLM, I agree with you about no extra fees. I can see both sides of this argument for sure. 1 side says itemize everything and the other says charge your rate and take care of the outside parts of the business without the extra paperwork. In my area of the US, our clients are upper middle class or better and they get their driveway plowed because they are too lazy to do it themselves. Not a big drive, not a lot of snow...just lazy. And I'm ok with it to be sure. I know for a fact that you guys get better snowfall in Michigan and also, there are a lot of people who are more clever with how they spend money to be sure. I never hear of this much back and forth on arboristsite.

As for doing 80 res. drives with one truck. ABSOLUTELY. I drive either a 1996 Bronco with a Snoway 6'6" on the front with wireless remote and down pressure. On the rear we have a Snowman pull plow. This is an excellent set-up for residentials. I back all the way in, pull it out from the garage, back down the street 15 feet and push it off to the side. Takes me 3-5 minutes depending on snow and terrain. My personal best was 93 drives in a standard12 hour shift with 4" of light snow. Granted, most of these drives were in subdivisions that we almost exclusively plow. I'd say 75% are plowed by us and the rest use shovels. Anyway, with the right equipment and driver, high numbers of res. drives are possible. I don't think I'd want to do this every night. Yeah, i'm getting roughly $250 per shift but the boss is pulling $3250 for those 93 drives. I'd prefer to keep my routes down to 60 drives and then if I have good time at the end of my shift I can help with the condo and commercial clean-up work (read this as driving a loader or skid steer).


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Mick said:


> 400 dollar investment to make 5000.
> 
> Thats good business.
> 
> Plus itll piss off some other contractor. Which right now is priceless.


I missed something. What was the $400 investment?[/QUOTE]

Removing residential snow for the lawn contract on acre properties.

Maybe not 5000, more like 3000 and I wont have 400 invested. Lost maybe but only 50 dollars invested.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

ECS said:


> With comments like these, you are worried about the way some may be bringing down the industry because of charging for marking drives.


many a man has built an empire giving things away for free. In the long run...people will pay.

My brother owns a 100 million dollar a year company with 1500 employees and 35 retail outlets and he actually advises me to offer free services to get my foot in the door.

To date Ive only offered the occassional courtesy freebie.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Well he then also must have the volume of business to help cover the costs of freebies. That in itself makes a huge difference. That is why the supermarkets have loss leaders. Sure they loose money on one thing, such as turkeys this time of year, but make it up on other items, but they also have the volume and are big enough as a corp. to use that to gain market share. For a small business or solo operation, that is just plain nuts. When you get to the point of doing a 100 million dollars a year, then go ahead and offer it. But why would you? That one more driveway or lawn wouldn't mean squat if you already had that much business.

The only freebies I have ever done is when I see some senior struggling to shovel his driveway.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Tom Monahan started out giving away free pizzas.

Good pizzas. Now he's building his own city in Florida, and I drive by his house three times a week in A2. It takes thirty seconds to drive past it at 40 mph.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Ok, I get it now (free snow removal for lawn services). Sometimes I'm kind of slow. Actually, I think that's a tactic some lawn services use. I suspect they really build it into the price for lawn services, but in an area with relatively low snowfall, I would think it would work well.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Thanks Mick. Im not a low shooter and a scammer, but Im gonna make this a success one way or the other, and it all starts with treating the person who pays my bills the way they should be treated.

Once you get your foot in the door that is.

One season of free snow plowing isn't going to hurt someone who wouldn;t be working other wise other than some basic expenses.

Can you imagine the calls that one would get with a add in the paper offering free Snow Removal?

Id have to use a contract that i dont use now of course and would be burned but Id certainly fill my plate of lawn care which to me is valuable. I also am licensed and experienced to do Lawn and tree applications.

Then the following year charge them a decent rate for snow services.


I still want to do this the hard way and get accounts not so slowly without having to do something so radical.

But times are tough.


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## crazymike (Oct 22, 2004)

Nobody has answered why they need to spend $1.50 on markers instead of cheapo/free wooden ones. I'm not bashing, just trying to see what I'm missing about these markers. I just can't justify that extra money for reflective material.


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## crazymike (Oct 22, 2004)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Thanks Mick. Im not a low shooter and a scammer, but Im gonna make this a success one way or the other, and it all starts with treating the person who pays my bills the way they should be treated.
> 
> Once you get your foot in the door that is.
> 
> ...


some advice to make quick money in landscaping and grow your company is to find another company to work with. That's how I got started with landscape, etc.. is by taking all the ****** jobs my friends company didn't want. He did the same. Eventually you grow to the point where you are giving away jobs. Not sure about your market, but around here the decent companies have more work than they can handle.

Also remember that if a job is ****** and nobody wants it, it can always pay more.

I've got multiple sites this year that other companies wouldn't touch, but with some creative thinking and a little extra time it can be well worth it. Because ****** jobs pay more.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Sound advice Mike.

Thank you.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

*Tom Monahan started out giving away free pizzas.*
He had a little more behind him than the idea to give away a few pizzas. Have you ever looked at his background?

*it all starts with treating the person who pays my bills the way they should be treated.*
Exactly............I take very good care of my customers. They are my lifeblood. They are very well off and treat me well and do not want me to do anything for free. These people also tip me very well. When I first started this business on my own, after I was fired from my job, my biggest customer created work for me to help me. They will pay for anything I send them a bill for and they know I will not cheat them. I do a lot more than snow and lawns, I take care of their property and their home when they are not here and when they are here, and they pay me well. They trust me and are loyal to me as I am to them.

*One season of free snow plowing isn't going to hurt someone who wouldn;t be working other wise other than some basic expenses.*
Basic expenses? Fuel, wear & tear on the vehicle, wear & tear on the plow, insurance, depreciation of truck & plow, and all the other expenses accociated with running a business.

As oman 1999 says says "*LLM, I agree with you about no extra fees. I can see both sides of this argument for sure. 1 side says itemize everything and the other says charge your rate and take care of the outside parts of the business without the extra paperwork*" I think that pretty much sums it up. Either way they are paying. Unlike where oman 199 is, my people are not uppper middle class (well a few of them are), but most of my people are very wealthy and none of them are stingy. They just want the work done right and are willing and wanting to pay for anything I do.

*What a joke,Charging for markers? and billing time to talk to customers?*
That right. For instance, one owner stops me and talks to me for 30-60 min a week. Ususally about hunting and fishing. His lawn takes me 2.5 hrs a week to do. I am there for 3 1/2 to 4 hrs a week. His lawn price is based on 3.5 hrs a week because of the time I am there. If I am done with the lawn uninterupted, like when he is busy or not there, and there is other work to be done, I do it at no extra charge up to the 3.5. He gets charged for anything over the 3.5 hrs. He is there just about every week and they pay me for the time to chat. That is time that I could be doing another property at the same rate. They know this and they are fine with this. It is on all my invoices as Lawn and chatting and has been on there like that since the beginning. If I am done uninterupted and no other work to be done then I make a few exra $$ and my invoice just says Lawn.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Lawn and chatting...lol

lol...Im sorry man but thats laughable.

You actually put it on the invoice?

lol

Oh that made my day.

Maybe you should just dump the mowers and sell chatting services at 60 bucks an hour..

Unbelievable.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Im gonna invoice every one of you for these chats we have here. I expect paid in fifteen days and if you want to cancel you have to do it in writing with four weeks notice too.

lol


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Sure why not? Hey remember this, they didn't get where they are by doing things for nothing. 

I also agree whith Mike, when I started I almost changed the name of my company to AFM, *A*nything *F*or *Money* and for the crappy jobs, you can usually get more money. Once established you end up with a good client base. I believe in keeping these people also as they are the ones that made it possible for me to survive.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

You're a trip dude.

lol

That just cost you 50 cents for my reply.

Pay me.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Im gonna invoice every one of you for these chats we have here. I expect paid in fifteen days and if you want to cancel you have to do it in writing with four weeks notice too.
> 
> lol


     LMAO

You know, for a thread that started to take a ****, it came around full circle and a lot of good info has been on here.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

*That just cost you 50 cents for my reply.*
LOL, I will send you one of my 50 cent snow stakes.


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## lownrangr (Nov 21, 2003)

I don't understand why anyone would charge a customer extra for the markers, that should be a business expense or operating cost ( or whatever it's called). So what if it costs YOU x number of dollars, you get a customer and it's the least you can do to make them feel happy and if you don't agree with that then the cost of markers comes out of the price they pay you to plow. Don't yell at me, that's just my $0.02!


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Bottom line is they are paying for it either way. No matter how you look at it, the customer is paying for it, either in the orignal plow quote or itemized on the invoice. So please tell me what the difference is. Some painters paint and charge as Time & Materials, some painters paint charging by the sq. ft. 
Bottom lie is the customer is still paying for the time and materials, no matter how you look at it.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

lownrangr said:


> I don't understand why anyone would charge a customer extra for the markers, that should be a business expense or operating cost ( or whatever it's called). So what if it costs YOU x number of dollars, you get a customer and it's the least you can do to make them feel happy and if you don't agree with that then the cost of markers comes out of the price they pay you to plow. Don't yell at me, that's just my $0.02!


I charge double my price for yelling.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Then you have a hell of a lot of money due you.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

crazymike said:


> Nobody has answered why they need to spend $1.50 on markers instead of cheapo/free wooden ones. I'm not bashing, just trying to see what I'm missing about these markers. I just can't justify that extra money for reflective material.


Mike, I don't pay $1.50, but I did go the wooden stake route one winter. Made my own. The problem was the amount of time I had into making them. Then some broke in putting them into the ground. The next winter, I bought those orange flexible stakes for $40 per bundle of 100 (I think they're up $5 or $10 now). They're not so likely to break and/or puncture a tire, look better, more reflective, easier to store and easier to pound into the ground.


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## lawnmasters2006 (Sep 19, 2006)

BLAHH...BLAHH..BLAHH...:crying: 
I DONT SEE THE BIG DEAL ABOUT PUTTING STAKES UP ,AT YOUR EXPENCE...SAVES THE GRASS DAMAGE AN SAVES YOUR PLOW..
I USE SOME PLACTIC ONES AN SOME STEAL FENCE POST ABOUT THE SIZE OF A DIME,GOTTA USE THEM SOME TIME TO KEEP THE KIDS FROM WANKING THEM OUT..:realmad: ....
NOW IF U CANT PUT MONEY OUT OF YOUR WALLET FOR THEM...THEM U ARE TO FREAKIN CHEAP...payup 


DO U CHARGE A LAWN CARE CUSTMER FOR LAWN MOWER BLADES?


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## crazymike (Oct 22, 2004)

btw, I'm not sure about you guys because I'm Canadian and our taxes are higher, but I can't find enough things to write off.

Markers are a business expense and you can write them off if you don't charge for them, so why not bill the government and rip him off than customers?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

lawnmasters2006 said:


> BLAHH...BLAHH..BLAHH...:crying:
> I DONT SEE THE BIG DEAL ABOUT PUTTING STAKES UP ,AT YOUR EXPENCE...SAVES THE GRASS DAMAGE AN SAVES YOUR PLOW..
> I USE SOME PLACTIC ONES AN SOME STEAL FENCE POST ABOUT THE SIZE OF A DIME,GOTTA USE THEM SOME TIME TO KEEP THE KIDS FROM WANKING THEM OUT..:realmad: ....
> NOW IF U CANT PUT MONEY OUT OF YOUR WALLET FOR THEM...THEM U ARE TO FREAKIN CHEAP...payup
> ...


Yes, I charge the customer for everything.. It is built in to my cost of doing business.
or I itemize the bill, but the customer payees for every thing.

Where did the money in your wallet come from? Your customers?

The customers pay for every thing I have, and do.
Where do you get your money....

As for the stakes: 
Yes they will save the grass and some damage to your plow. 
But they are to mark that flower bed, that low retaining wall, that expensive fountain, that drip off etc etc..

No matter who you think they are for, you or the homeowner, there are part of doing business. They cost money.....

Do you work another job and spend that money on your hobby(plowing)? I didn't think so!! So, no matter where you think the money comes from in the end it is your customers.

i


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## crazymike (Oct 22, 2004)

The problem is the wording you guys are using.

You say you HAVE to have them for plowing. Fair enough. But you also HAVE to have fuel in your truck, HAVE to eat lunch that day, etc...

You don't bill them for fuel, etc... you work it into your cost. You make sure you are making enough money throughout the season to cover those costs.

To me, I would rather not bill for the stakes and right it off. If you bill them for it, you can't right it off, and in fact should be charging them taxes for the stakes aswell depending on your state.

To me it just seems liked better business sense to add $10 to your entire seasonal bid for the job then to give them a bid for plowing a bid for installing stakes, etc... BUt that's just how I feel. You have to do what you have to do to stay in business.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Thats actually a very good point Mike. You are now selling a product as opposed to a service and sales tax should be applied and collected and sent to the state.

Not only that. Do you guys that charge for them let the customer keep them? Or do you "steal" them back in spring only to resell them the product you "stole" the following season?

I think we/I am belaboring this point.

Its a cost of doing business and should be absorbed or prebuilt in to the price plain and simple.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Thats actually a very good point Mike. You are now selling a product as opposed to a service and sales tax should be applied and collected and sent to the state.
> 
> I am belaboring this point.
> 
> ...


forms no.. only one that I send to the city sales tax devision quarterly
to report any sales tax.

so I have sales tax ID#
I have an state business lic#

I do not use a form every time I collect a tax....

You have a lot to learn about running a legit business....and making money.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Ok...
Whatever you say dude.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

*looks*



crazymike said:


> Nobody has answered why they need to spend $1.50 on markers instead of cheapo/free wooden ones. I'm not bashing, just trying to see what I'm missing about these markers. I just can't justify that extra money for reflective material.


I use the "expensive" markers because I like the looks of them and I can see them. More than once the reflective tape has saved my butt from backing into something because I got a hint of the reflective in my mirror. I started using them for a commercial account that was concerned about image.

I like the idea of having your name and number listed on them, been seeing more of this lately.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Well as I posted I use rebar,and spray the top foot or so orange.

Call concrete contractors or builders,they give scrap garbage like that away for free most time just to get it off the job site,just a lil' paint and labour.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

crazymike said:


> btw, I'm not sure about you guys because I'm Canadian and our taxes are higher, but I can't find enough things to write off.
> 
> Markers are a business expense and you can write them off if you don't charge for them, so why not bill the government and rip him off than customers?


Bingo!

Thats your answer,the advantage of operating a legal buisness.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

I never considered that the guys that charge independently for them are under the table under the radar illegitimate operations, and dont get to take them off their taxes because they dont file taxes.

Hmmm.

Makes ya wonder.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Well that makes absolutely no sence what so ever. Why the heck would that make anyone under the table or running an illegal business.? As long as everything is accounted for and on the up and up, is all that matterts. That in no way make someone illegal. It is listed as an expense in one column and as income in another column, a complete washout which is actually $0.00 income. Some of you are also landscapers, so wy do you just buy the trees and plants and put them in for nothing and take it as a write off? Come on, get real. And to say that because of this I do not pay taxes is pure BullChit. So Golly Gee, if I don't charge for things then I will be legal?

As far as the other comment on me taking or stealing them back in the spring and then charging the customer again. Think again as I have already stated about this in post #21


ECS said:


> *I pick them up in the spring at no charge when I go to do my spring cleanups, and store them at their place. When the next season rolls around, sometimes they are there to use again and sometimes not. If I have to replace them, they pay for it. *


For anyone to come on here and claim that myself or anyone else is illegal is ******** and I do take this business very serious as it is *my business*. I pay all my taxes, I do not cheat the government or my customers, I pay a hell of a lot for the insurance I need, likely a lot more than most of you due to my caretaking end of it. I will tell you all this right now, don't ever come on here and accuse me of working under the table, being illegal or not paying taxes. You can take those assumptions and stick them.

*edit - language*


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

crazymike said:


> btw, I'm not sure about you guys because I'm Canadian and our taxes are higher, but I can't find enough things to write off.
> 
> Markers are a business expense and you can write them off if you don't charge for them, so *why not bill the government and rip him off than customers?*


Oh yeah, lets rip the government off. I am sure they will enjoy reading theis from you when I send this link to them. Yeah, smart business, rip off the govt. so you can live better. Don't worry, the link is on the way.

You must run a class act business if you don't have enough to write off. Maybe when you become legit, you will have enough to write off.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Sounds like we hit a nerve.

Gonna report me to the Dept of Transportation for using overpowered driving beams too?


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

lawnmasters2006 said:


> NOW IF U CANT PUT MONEY OUT OF YOUR WALLET FOR THEM...THEM U ARE TO FREAKIN CHEAP...payup
> 
> DO U CHARGE A LAWN CARE CUSTMER FOR LAWN MOWER BLADES?


First it is not a matter of being cheap, it is a matter of being reimbursed for the money I do lay out for them, thousands of dollars, no upcharging, just what I am laying out for them. You may call me cheap, but in reality you are just too stupid tp get your money back.

Yeah I do charge them for my mower blades as well as my oil change and insurance. I also charge them for the use of my mower and my fuel in the mower and my truck. The difference between lawns and snow is that I am not weather dependent on lawns and I know that I am going to be doing every lawn every week and can keep track of the expenses and charge accodingly. With my snow situation it is different, and I am not going to keep replacing stakes for nothing when the owner decides he needs kindling for his fireplace. I am not going to drive to their property for nothing either. They know this and they pay it. If you are too stupid to get the money owed to you and would rather leave the money on the table, that is your business.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Sounds like we hit a nerve.
> 
> Gonna report me to the Dept of Transportation for using overpowered driving beams too?


No nerve hit. Just telling it like it is. You want to come on here and talk big ****, fine with me. You come on here all high and mightey and can do no wrong, at least that is what yiou think. So what are you saying, you are breaking the law with your lights? If that is the case, then you know you are breaking the law, and yet you have the nerve to say things like you have said on here with your accusations? Get real!!


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

You spend thousands on driveway stakes? What are they made of....200 year old reclaimed Birch?

When you put a stamp on the envelope to mail a client a bill...do you add .37 cents to the invoice? .02 for the envelope? .01 for the paper its printed on? and .05 for ink to print it?

Does each bill you send include a line item of .45 cents for office supplies?

I think the point is , and was that it just seems silly to invoice people for something you should have built into your price, or as many do absorb the cost.

But you also charge customers to even speak to you so....you are on your own planet apparently and do it however you want.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I'm not real sure why everyone is getting riled up. There is more than one way to do almost anything. Myself, I don't charge for stakes specifically, but they are figured in as a business expense, the same as gas, lettering my truck, or any other expense. The customer pays for them ultimately, just not as a separate item on the bill. I do report the purchase as a business expense on my tax return, but I don't consider it ripping of the government or anybody else. It's a legitimate expense item. 

Please feel free to send my post to the IRS.

I can see that if you bill the stakes to the customer, it would be considered an item purchased for resale and subject to sales tax. I'd never thought of it before, but definately something to keep in mind for future reference.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Mick said:


> I'm not real sure why everyone is getting riled up. There is more than one way to do almost anything. Myself, I don't charge for stakes specifically, but they are figured in as a business expense, the same as gas, lettering my truck, or any other expense. The customer pays for them ultimately, just not as a separate item on the bill. I do report the purchase as a business expense on my tax return, but I don't consider it ripping of the government or anybody else. It's a legitimate expense item.
> 
> Please feel free to send my post to the IRS.
> 
> I can see that if you bill the stakes to the customer, it would be considered an item purchased for resale and subject to sales tax. I'd never thought of it before, but definately something to keep in mind for future reference.


Right on, and the guy who said rip off the feds wasn't meaning cheat them, but use it as a tax deduction. ECS is kinda hot on the topic and he's sortof in his own world so I can see why he's upset.

But yeah....I hadn't thought of it as a sales taxable item till it was mentioned either.

Interesting. This.

What really blew me away is he charges some old gut 60 dollars an hour or whatever his hourly rate is to chat about hunting now and then cuz the guys lonely.

Amazing.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> You spend thousands on driveway stakes? What are they made of....200 year old reclaimed Birch?
> 
> But you also charge customers to even speak to you so....you are on your own planet apparently and do it however you want.


Where was it said that I lay iout thouds for *snow stakes*. I said I lay out thousands for my customers. Maybe you need to take some reading lessons.

Yep, they want to talk fo an hour, they are going to pay for it. that is an hour I could be doing something else and making money. I also explained the scenerio to you, so don't be an *** and blow it out of proprtion.


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## mrbrickman (Nov 13, 2006)

it shouldnt be free to spend time staking someones property, i think its totally legit to charge the customer the first year for the stakes, then each year after charge for the time you spent to reinstall them, and dont forget about the time you spent collecting them in the spring and storing them at your yard...some clients just wont pay for the service but we will still put them in anyhow to prevent the mess we can get into with a bunch of pushed off bumper blocks or cracked curbs..etc.. we just add that into the first snow as an hour or 2 for a truck...

maybe a lot of you guys are talking about driveways then id say maybe theyre optional if you know your drives like the back of your hand but when it comes to commercial stuff, its important to know where your curbs are..

no its not necessary but theyre a good idea

and however its done dosent matter as long as it's done...

brickmans been around a long time, we're the largest snow firm in the world...therts gotta be a reason why we stake right? we use both wooden and the fiberglass stakes, but wood only if we run out of fiberglass ones....the wood ones tend to break off if you hit them with a plow or pile of snow youre trying to push over a curb, and when the ground is frozen, you cant really put them back in too easily...the fiberglass ones are flexible, easy as pie to put in, dont leave a 1.5" x 1.5" hole in the ground, cost 4 times more and also tend to get stolen often by "cheap" landscrapers....


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Right on, and the guy who said rip off the feds wasn't meaning cheat them, but use it as a tax deduction. ECS is kinda hot on the topic and he's sortof in his own world so I can see why he's upset.
> 
> But yeah....I hadn't thought of it as a sales taxable item till it was mentioned either.
> 
> ...


 No it is you are the one hot on the topic of trying to pesuade everyone that your way is the only way. Isn't that why you keep trying to twist things around and trying to quote what is not even being said.


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## dilligafdog (Oct 23, 2006)

i agree with ann arbor on this one we put up the markers to safe guard ourselves from damaging the property we are plowing. less damage we do less we have to fix and more money in my pocketpayup . as far as wooden stakes if you use any thing other than a tooth pick they can damage some one's auto, if some one accidentally backs into one it does a number on the paint:realmad: , at least with fiber glass they just bend over. just my .02:salute:


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

I'm confused on this thread,So its ok to charge my customers for markers AND then write it off? Seems like double dipping to me.You buy them,install them and write it off end of story.

You talk for an hour and charge for it?,I still can't believe thats true,no offence...if I'm asked to give a bid to someone in excavation work I shoot the **** for as long as they wish free of charge,its called being personable I'll even tell them what the cost should be and ways to possibly make the idea better for them.I'd rather see them save money thats my job guess what? most times I'll get the job since I was the only guy willing to talk things out.Funny,charcing a customer to shoot the ****,If I even tryed that i'd loose my shirt or have the better buisness bureau after me.

Guys whining about lost accounts that were "theirs" and they need to up the price to live but running around in brand new one tons cuz remember now half tons can't plow  lol I love plowing and whining contractors.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

murry, when I go for an estimate, I do not charge and I spend a lot of time with the people. Maybe you need to reread the situation I was talking about. I have a very personable relationship with all of my people. They know they can call me at anytime, day or night for whatever they need. My phone is on 7/24 for my business. I have had owners call me on Sat & Sun mornings at 6:00 because they need something. I have gotten calls at 2:30 in the morning for freeze alarms also. I deal with it. I do not charge any extra because it is the middle of the night like some do around here. I do not charge extra because it is on the weekend like some around here do. I have been called on a Sunday afternoon while at a friends house to pick up their car at the airport, I dealt with it and accomidated my customer for the same fee as always. I lost money on that one and could have charged extra and they would have been happy to pay for it. I am fair and honest with my people and they are fair and honest with me. I treat them very good and they treat me very good. The same customer has paid us to come out to the house to be there to go over things upon their return, clock starting from the time I start my truck at home and stopping when I turn my truck off at home. Many of my people are older and pay us well to take care of them and their property, inside and out. We are their propery manager and caretakers and no contractor does a thing without us being their. They know my time is money and if they wish to pay me to talk to them, then that is their business and mine, not yours or anyone else's business. If any of my customers called me for something on *any hiliday*, they know we will be there for them and take care of what needs to be done.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

To each his own, just try and bill for staking in this area and you'll plow NOTHING.

Why are stakes put in the ground?? To protect us the snowplowers against property and equipment damage. 

If you turf a yard, kill a sprinkler, crack a curb or anything else, who pays to fix it?? Around here, the snowplower pays, and in my opinion, rightly so.

You hire me to take care of snow and ice, your yard or parking lot will look the same in the spring as it did in the fall. That is a part of this business, a cost. A cost I try to control by staking lots.

I have 1500 fiberglass stakes at .45 each, roughly $500. I could kill $500 worth of grass by being 6" to far to the right or left and not know it till spring. Stakes save me money.

Last year, an idiot I hired to move a pile, cracked $700 worth of curbs. I paid ti fix em, no questions, business - it's also unsettled business between me and the idiot.


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## slclawn (Sep 6, 2006)

I give out at least two or three free services a year two each customer and commercial property. Like side walk edging or trim a few trees what ever I do I try to keep it under an hour. So not much time is lost. One older lady on my rout some time ask's me to do odds an ins she can't do like get something out of her car that the bag boy put in for her trunk and I have never charged her for these. She has also refer me to three other accounts that I have now. Charging for stakes is almost like charging for fertilizing. It helps them and you there lawn looks good and it grows faster more mows. You put stakes up there lawn continues to look good and you save your self work. If you charge for it thats fine if not put it on the bill so they know they got a free service bottom line keep the customer happy.wesport wesport


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

slclawn said:


> I give out at least two or three free services a year two each customer and commercial property. Like side walk edging or trim a few trees what ever I do I try to keep it under an hour. So not much time is lost. One older lady on my rout some time ask's me to do odds an ins she can't do like get something out of her car that the bag boy put in for her trunk and I have never charged her for these. She has also refer me to three other accounts that I have now. Charging for stakes is almost like charging for fertilizing. It helps them and you there lawn looks good and it grows faster more mows. You put stakes up there lawn continues to look good and you save your self work. If you charge for it thats fine if not put it on the bill so they know they got a free service bottom line keep the customer happy.wesport wesport


So, are you saying you DON'T charge to fertilize?


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

murray83 said:


> I'm confused on this thread,So its ok to charge my customers for markers AND then write it off? QUOTE]
> 
> In a sense, yes. If you charge for markers as a separate item, you would need to declare them as an item bought for resale. You could write off the cost of the markers, but you'd need to declare the sale price as income to the IRS. You may also need to pay sales tax to your state. You would also be paying state income tax for the sale price of the stakes as most state tax is calculated from federal income figures. So, by charging as a separate item, it is actually costing you money. If you simply figured them as a cost of doing business, you would simply include the cost of the stake as a business expense. No income or sales tax.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

And somehow for some reason control products applied like fert and weed control do not fall into a taxable item category here at least.

I think it has to do with it being applied. if you sold them bagged product for personal use its a different thing.


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## slclawn (Sep 6, 2006)

I charge to fertlize I am just saying its them same it helps the lawn and the customer bennifets from it with a nice lawn. And if i stake it they bennifet by not having there lawn torn up just if you stake it for free let them see it on the next bill they love to see the word free on the bill even if its only stakes or you sweep there drive. Let em know what you did not charge them for that way if the next guy comes along and says x to plow and x to put up stakes they know your puting up the stakes for free as a good deed. They will tell him no thanks i already have some one who does that for me. I have had coustomers move and say that they can't get good service where they live now.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

slclawn said:


> . I have had coustomers move and say that they can't get good service where they live now.


Did they move to Wyoming by chance?

lol

Sorry EC....couldnt resist.

:waving:


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Mick said:


> murray83 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm confused on this thread,So its ok to charge my customers for markers AND then write it off? QUOTE]
> ...


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

It wouldn't matter if you sold the gallon of paint for a dollar and lost 28.99.

You are a retailer now.

Whats wrong is you aren't collecting Sales tax and forwarding it to the state.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Did they move to Wyoming by chance?
> 
> lol
> 
> ...


LOL, that was a good one. But I can almost garauntee that my customers get better service fromme than anyone they have ever had and better service than most anyone on this board gives their customers.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

ECS said:


> Mick said:
> 
> 
> > So if I buy a 1 gallon of paint for my customer and the paint costs 29.99 plus tax and I charge my customer $29.99 plus tax, it is wrong? It is an expense to me and goes onto my expenses. All the customer is do is buying the same 1 gallon of paint from me as I paid for it. The time it takes me to go to town and go into the store, wait for them to mix the color formula for the paint and mix it and then drive to there property. Total time = 1 hr of my time. For easy math lets just say that it is $50 an hour. I bill them for 1 hr of my time @ $50 as a service and $29.99 plus tax for parts and materials, Total bill = $81.79 (6% sales tax) which is my $50 +the $29.99 + $1.80 sales tax. We also have no state income tax here. Please explain what is wrong here.
> ...


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Sales tax, in Michigan doesn't work quite that way if I understand it correctly, and I think I do according to my accounant.

I buy lumber and pay sales tax on that. I build you a house but do not charge sales tax, I've already paid the sales tax on the materials - I don't think services are taxable. I pay taxes on the salt I buy and all other materials for that matter, never charge the customer sales tax.

In Ohio, I think you can be sales tax exempt, meaning you don't pay it to your vendor but you charge your customer and pay it to the state - way more paperwork for me imo.


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## andrewlawnrangr (Dec 3, 2004)

LLM ANN ARBOR 

i think u are trying to start somthing with everyone . dam dude relax


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Just to clarify, that quoted post that shows it was a post by me, about the paint, was actually a post by ECS. It just came out as a post by me for some reason.

framer1901 - you are right, services are not taxable. The difference in your example is that you are not billing for the lumber as a sepatate item on your bill to the customer. You are figuring it into the cost of building the house. It works the same as most states I've been involved with. If you started selling the lumber to your customer, then charged for labor, then you'd be a retailer (selling goods - the lumber, as well as services - the labor) and likely would have to collect sales tax.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

framer1901 said:


> Sales tax, in Michigan doesn't work quite that way if I understand it correctly, and I think I do according to my accounant.
> 
> I buy lumber and pay sales tax on that. I build you a house but do not charge sales tax, I've already paid the sales tax on the materials - I don't think services are taxable. I pay taxes on the salt I buy and all other materials for that matter, never charge the customer sales tax.
> 
> In Ohio, I think you can be sales tax exempt, meaning you don't pay it to your vendor but you charge your customer and pay it to the state - way more paperwork for me imo.


and if you bought the wood and sold it to someone to build their own home it would be sales taxable.

Wood....driveway stakes.....salt...dildos.

It doesnt matter.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> and if you bought the wood and sold it to someone to build their own home it would be sales taxable.
> 
> Wood....driveway stakes.....salt...dildos.
> 
> It doesnt matter.


What is wrong with you llm????
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mick,

It would matter if he bought the wood, paint, stakes from a wholesaler or retailer.


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## windmill (Dec 3, 2002)

Hi ECS, didn't know you were here too.


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## brianslawncare (Nov 16, 2006)

*mrbrickman*

im in pa and i was wondering if you could help me with a contract.i started plowing last year i did about 15 houses. im looking to expand to some commercial work.and i really dont know how much to charge plus how to write it in a contract.i have a lawn care business do you think i could use my contracts from that but just change it to plowing.do you charge per push or per hour?can you email me some ideas? thanks [email protected]


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

If I bought lumber, paid MI sales tax on it, sold it to you at same cost - I would not have to charge you sales tax, the tax has already been paid period. 

I sell you a house, I could itemize everything and still not charge sales tax - it's already been paid when purchased - plumber buys toilet, electrician buys lights..............

I buy calc chloride for sidewalks by the skid - I resell it to a few customers at my cost and do not charge sales tax - I already paid it when I bought it.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

This is the Michigan government - Treasury Dept site - related to Business: 
http://www.michigan.gov/treasury/0,1607,7-121-1750_2143_2153-15477--,00.html

While it may be claimed that you would not pay taxes per the "Contractor" section, when you resell material, it seems that it would fall under the "Services" section as "Tangible Personal Property".


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

framer1901 said:


> If I bought lumber, paid MI sales tax on it, sold it to you at same cost - I would not have to charge you sales tax, the tax has already been paid period.


wrong.....

Beyond that. If you bought it for 100 dollars and sold it for a dollar youd still be required to collect .06 and forward it the the government.

edit to add.....see micks link.


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## crazymike (Oct 22, 2004)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> wrong.....
> 
> Beyond that. If you bought it for 100 dollars and sold it for a dollar youd still be required to collect .06 and forward it the the government.
> 
> edit to add.....see micks link.


QFT, then you can claim back the difference in tax you paid


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> wrong.....
> 
> Beyond that. If you bought it for 100 dollars and sold it for a dollar youd still be required to collect .06 and forward it the the government.
> 
> edit to add.....see micks link.


Not in Minnesota.

If you buy supplies, you can either give them a form that says that you'll collect the sales tax later, and you don't pay when you purchase, or you pay the sales tax for the supplies, and don't charge sales tax later.

I've been on probation with the MN Department of Revenue for failure to collect sales tax in the past, when I started my lawn care business. 6 years back in the late 80's / early 90's of back taxes.

Snowplowing and services related are not taxable.

Lawn care and services related ARE taxable.

Firewood is not taxable.

These ONLY pertain here in MN, since that's the only state I deal with, therefore the only state I'm concerned about.

As far as the original topic of this thread, I go to Home Depot, pick up 100 flags, like the ones that are used for marking utilities for $7. That's .07 each. You can flag every inch of every curb for that amount, plus once the snow is plowed, you've got a bank to see where the curb is anyways.

Now again, this works where I'm at, usually we don't get dumped with 10-12" of snow, but where you guys get 1-2' of snow at a time, these'll probably be a little short.


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## mike33087 (Feb 9, 2005)

*damn*



andrewlawnrangr said:


> LLM ANN ARBOR
> 
> i think u are trying to start somthing with everyone . dam dude relax


i couldnt agree more, all you do is bash everybody else. grow up and keep your damn two cents to yourself. it seems like every thread that is posted you have to put in a negative comment. its like back in the day when your mom used to say " if yo dont have anything nice to say, then dont say anything at all" your way too opinionated man....just chill we are all here for the same reasons.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

I like opinions. So apparently we aren't here for the same exact things.

I may be too negative. Im working on that, but perhaps....you assume too much.

And while this is a professional site to provide information and sell product, I believe an exchange of ideas, and thought is a positive thing in and of itself, and I think the admins are showing restraint and offering a little more leway to that end recently, which I also think is good.

And I appreciate it.


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## mike33087 (Feb 9, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> I like opinions. So apparently we aren't here for the same exact things.
> 
> I may be too negative. Im working on that, but perhaps....you assume too much.
> 
> ...


you understand im not trying to be a dick or tell you what to do, im just stating the obvious. you definitly have some valid points that i agree with most of the time. it just kills me that this thread has been dragged out this long.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

framer1901 said:


> If I bought lumber, paid MI sales tax on it, sold it to you at same cost - I would not have to charge you sales tax, the tax has already been paid period.
> 
> I sell you a house, I could itemize everything and still not charge sales tax - it's already been paid when purchased - plumber buys toilet, electrician buys lights..............
> 
> I buy calc chloride for sidewalks by the skid - I resell it to a few customers at my cost and do not charge sales tax - I already paid it when I bought it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LwnmwrMan22 Quote:
Originally Posted by LLM Ann Arbor
wrong.....

Beyond that. If you bought it for 100 dollars and sold it for a dollar youd still be required to collect .06 and forward it the the government.

edit to add.....see micks link.

---------------------------------------------------
Not in Minnesota.

If you buy supplies, you can either give them a form that says that you'll collect the sales tax later, and you don't pay when you purchase, or you pay the sales tax for the supplies, and don't charge sales tax later.

I've been on probation with the MN Department of Revenue for failure to collect sales tax in the past, when I started my lawn care business. 6 years back in the late 80's / early 90's of back taxes.

Snowplowing and services related are not taxable.

Lawn care and services related ARE taxable.

Firewood is not taxable.

These ONLY pertain here in MN, since that's the only state I deal with, therefore the only state I'm concerned about.

As far as the original topic of this thread, I go to Home Depot, pick up 100 flags, like the ones that are used for marking utilities for $7. That's .07 each. You can flag every inch of every curb for that amount, plus once the snow is plowed, you've got a bank to see where the curb is anyways.

Now again, this works where I'm at, usually we don't get dumped with 10-12" of snow, but where you guys get 1-2' of snow at a time, these'll probably be a little short.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Right, thats how I understand it to be also....


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

just agree to disagree...............

Best thing is talk to your bean counter, I've talked with mine.............


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LwnmwrMan22 Quote:
> Originally Posted by LLM Ann Arbor
> wrong.....
> ...


This is the same as it is in MI, Framer is correct for MI, LLM is wrong. I just went through an audit last year so coming from the Dept of Treasury and my CPA, I can double the price of my bag of fertilizer if I want, and not have to collect sales tax. You can exempt out of paying sales tax, then you have to pay it to the state. If you choose to pay it upfront, you don't have to pay later. If you 'resell' it as part of a service, such as a landscape install, there is no additional tax.

ECS, you have done an exemplary job of explaining Business 101. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be sinking in to some. I have to give you credit for debating this topic so long, I would have given up a long time ago.

Just remember the old saying: "Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you ............."

Question for you that don't think stakes should be charged for via line item: What's the difference between invoicing them as a line item and including them in your cost of business?

If you don't stake a driveway and tear up the grass or hit a curb and damage your plow, who pays for the repair of the lawn or the plow?

PS These are not meant to be trick questions, although for some they might be.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Mark Oomkes said:


> This is the same as it is in MI, Framer is correct for MI, LLM is wrong. I just went through an audit last year so coming from the Dept of Treasury and my CPA, I can double the price of my bag of fertilizer if I want, and not have to collect sales tax. You can exempt out of paying sales tax, then you have to pay it to the state. If you choose to pay it upfront, you don't have to pay later. If you 'resell' it as part of a service, such as a landscape install, there is no additional tax.
> 
> ECS, you have done an exemplary job of explaining Business 101. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be sinking in to some. I have to give you credit for debating this topic so long, I would have given up a long time ago.
> 
> ...


I disagree still. You are talking about something totally different. Products applied in the course of providing a service, are not the same as products purchased and "|Resold|" to another consumer.

You are correct in the sense that fertilizer applied you dont charge sales tax, but if you bought a bag, and sold the bag to a consumer or end user you certainly are supposed to charge sales tax.

Thats what we are talking about.

ECS buys stakes and sells the stakes to the customer for them to keep. Its Reselling. Not a service provided.

Im nobodys idiot and not above admitting Im wrong, but in this case you sir are comparing apples to oranges.

Edit.....
Maybe I am wrong since he "sticks them in the ground".

I dont know.
Its not like the states worried about 10 dollars in sales tax anyways.

But I still say even charging them for them as a seperate line item is totally rediculous.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> I disagree still.
> 
> You are correct in the sense that fertilizer applied you dont charge sales tax, but if you bought a bag, and sold the bag to a consumer or end user you certainly are supposed to charge sales tax.
> 
> ...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

You can disagree all you want LLM, but you're still wrong. The audit covered Sales, Use and Payroll\UA taxes, basically everything the state takes from me. I did not get dinged for any sales tax on any products I 'resold' to my customers because I paid the sales tax on them initially. I only had to pay Use tax on stuff I bought out of state and didn't pay sales tax on initially. And the whole thing was a waste of everybody's time, because I guarantee the state did not come out ahead after they found credits that I should have taken. Throw in what it cost me to have my CPA involved, and it cost everybody a lot more than it gained anybody--other than my CPA. 

LLM, don't or can't answer either of my questions?

If your nobody's idiot, does that mean you're not even your own?


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

What questions?

Like I said I may be wrong after looking at it again but Im not convinced by any means, and could someone clue snofarmer in on how to use the quote button?

His posts are almost impossible to figure out.


I still think its silly to charge them seperately....if he just figured it into the original price and raised his price 30 cents a push...problem solved and then some.

Funny thing. I spoke to a mechanic in town today for a half hour about a concern with my truck and he said right out of the blue....conversation is free.

I immediately thought of ECS and his charging some old lonely customer of his that likes to talk about hunting now and then.

The guy said we are here to help. 




Like I said....as long as you can sleep at night and they dont ***** then whatever I suppose.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Question for you that don't think stakes should be charged for via line item: What's the difference between invoicing them as a line item and including them in your cost of business?
> 
> If you don't stake a driveway and tear up the grass or hit a curb and damage your plow, who pays for the repair of the lawn or the plow?
> PS These are not meant to be trick questions, although for some they might be.


These questions.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

The difference is that most all plow guys I know and on here do it to protect themselves, dont charge the customer and absorb the four dollars or less that it costs. Plus...it looks cheap and excessive to invoice them for the stakes and probably time if I know this dude at all when the stakes are practically zero cost for the amount of work the customer throws his way each season, and hede be sitting online here if he wasnt out getting some fresh air doing the easy task of installing them and surveying the property.

I hate to answer a question with a question....but IF you DO stake the property and ruin the grass or your plow...who pays then?

My answer is the same either way.

The contractor.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> The difference is that most all plow guys I know and on here do it to protect themselves, dont charge the customer and absorb the four dollars or less that it costs. Plus...it looks cheap and excessive to invoice them for the stakes and probably time if I know this dude at all when the stakes are practically zero cost for the amount of work the customer throws his way each season, and hede be sitting online here if he wasnt out getting some fresh air doing the easy task of installing them and surveying the property.
> 
> I hate to answer a question with a question....but IF you DO stake the property and ruin the grass or your plow...who pays then?
> 
> ...


That statement and some others in this thread completely explain the shape this industry is in. As well as the green industry.

Another question, who pays taxes, individuals or corporations?

PS, you didn't answer one of my questions. The one about who's idiot you really are.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Whos idiot I really am?


I dont understand the question and its really not relevant.

Both individuals and corporations pay taxes.

What does that have to do with the price of apples?

And what do you mean shape the industies in. Because I wouldnt charge 4 dollars for driveway stakes Im ruining the industry?

lol


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

What's really amazing is that in eight days, this thread has generated 130 "replies" and 1635 "views".

Whoops, 131.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

I wish more felt comfortable voicing their opinions like you and I do Mick, and several others. But I think a lot are intimidated and just dont want to get involved, in trouble or aren't the types to speak. Some have professional visability and are affraid to speak freely. Maybe rightfully so, maybe not.

I dunno.

Its a forum board for an exchange of ideas, techniques, information and thoughts on the industry and the lives we lead.

It can be...a community.

I trully believe the Mods are being a lot more generous these days or lately because to these websites....this one especially its about "Hits"

The more Hits they get the more they can charge for advertising and if we can keep the name calling and inapproriate behavior to a dull roar I think they will continue to let people speak a little more freely, and they will make more dollars.

Win win.


The fact that we can all disagree, or agree to disagree, or to learn and hang out will make this site more popular than ever.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Yes, I'd encourage debate, too, as long as we can keep from personal attacks. There is nothing wrong with saying "you're wrong", but saying "you're stupid for thinking that" is something else. I've known some who had to cut back on replies because of professional concerns. Keep in mind, this is an open forum - anybody can join in. It's up to the reader to determine what is worth considering and come to your own conclusion.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Whos idiot I really am?
> 
> I dont understand the question and its really not relevant.
> 
> ...


Do you have a 'lol' in every one of your posts?

Never mind about the idiot question.

Corporations do not pay taxes, individuals pay taxes. Every dollar that is paid to the gov't comes from you and me. It might go through a corporation before it gets to the gov't, but we are paying them. That is why higher corp. taxes are a bad thing, just like higher fuel prices--ultimately, anybody who buys anything is paying the price for higher fuel and higher taxes on anything.

The statement about the industry is based on yours and other replies about not understanding some of the simplest concepts about costs and who pays for those costs. If I hit a curb and wreck my plow, my customers pay for it. If I tear up their lawn, they pay for it. It might not be line itemed on an invoice, but it is built into overhead. This is basically what you were saying about not charging extra. Some invoice it separately, some build it into their cost of doing business, but no matter what, if you don't estimate time and materials into staking a property, you are going to lose money by not estimating the extra time and if you don't stake it, your customers are going to be paying for your mistakes, directly or indirectly.

I have some more, but I'm out of time right now.

My taxes question is apples to apples when you look at both situations in the correct light.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> ECS, you have done an exemplary job of explaining Business 101. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be sinking in to some. I have to give you credit for debating this topic so long, I would have given up a long time ago.
> 
> Just remember the old saying: "Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you ............."
> 
> ...


I stake my driveways and no I do not charge a dime,its the cost of me plowing the customer's driveway.If you do or do not stake a driveway any lawn damage should be covered by you,it was your plow...simple as that.

Just as a last thought on my part who says your right? who says LLM is right? who says I'm right? opinions are like a*sholes and everyone has one but this forum is a place to learn not throw childish insults around.I enjoy visiting this site to give opinions or read others in areas not my own,I've learned plenty here over the last year and thank many who post but calling others stupid and slow is tasteless and plainly pisses me off,lets keep this site friendly.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Do you have a 'lol' in every one of your posts?
> 
> Corporations do not pay taxes
> 
> The statement about the industry is based on yours and other replies about not understanding some of the simplest concepts about costs and who pays for those costs. If I hit a curb and wreck my plow, my customers pay for it. If I tear up their lawn, they pay for it.


Yes I laugh sometimes. try it. Your heart will love you for it Mark.

Corporations dont pay taxes? I dont even know how to respond to that after being told Im the idiot and dont know anything about taxes. I will say this. Your corporations dont pay taxes but people do is a play on words and you know it.

And if your customers are paying for your accidents and carelessness then you have wonderful customers with a lot of money and compassion or something.

Unbelievable.

edited for spelling.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> What questions?
> 
> Like I said I may be wrong after looking at it again but Im not convinced by any means, and could someone clue snofarmer in on how to use the quote button?
> 
> ...


Well I think that you just may be a little bit jealous of me Ann. My time is money and my customer want to pay me for my time. Simple as that.

*I still think its silly to charge them seperately....if he just figured it into the original price and raised his price 30 cents a push...problem solved and then some.* 
All of my drives are priced the same rate. Some need stakes and some don't, just my time to drive to their property and put them in. Some owners put their own up. I also explained this all to you. I am not going to give away nearly $92 plus my time and fuel for free. I am not going to charge Mr. Smith $40 and Mr. Jones $37.50 or what ever the price might be because they talk to each other and they then want to know why Mr. Jones is paying less. They talk because they are neighbors or friends. They know I have to make a living here in order to live. They know it takes time and expenses to take care of their property for them whan they are here and especially when they are not here.
Now I am going to use some easy #s to deal with here, and these #s are all ficticious. Why would anyone charge let's say $40.30 for a plow job? If I was to charge $40 then I stand to loose some money for my time, fuel, and stakes. If I charge $42.50 or $45 then you will sit here and tell me I am ripping them off. My time is money, some need stakes and some don't as I explained to you in one of the many earlier posts. You also never answered me on the question about me putting up stakes for another company?

*Funny thing. I spoke to a mechanic in town today for a half hour about a concern with my truck and he said right out of the blue....conversation is free.* 
I also explained this situation to you which you keep twisting around like a cork screw. I can talk to my machanic for free to. But if he is working on my truck, and I stop him and talk to nim, the clock is still running at $85.00 an hour. If I stop him while he is working on sombody elses truck, the clock is still running and someone is going to pay for that time. So you are not necassarily talking for nothing. If your machanic is, then he is the idiot. *Conversation is frr, but time is not.*

*Like I said....as long as you can sleep at night and they dont ***** then whatever I suppose.
Very good. I see that now you finally get it. You get an A+ for that one. Why does it bother you so much that I can and do get paid very well for my time. No *****ing, no complaints, just more and more work. Why does it bother you if someone wishes to pay me for my time? Why does it bother you the way someone spends their money? Why does it bother you that I deal with very wealthy people that want to pay me for my time. Like I told you before, these people didn't get where they are at by working for nothing.

Do you not think that your few customers pay your rent/mortgage, utility bills, insurance, ect............ Believe it or not they do. Why? Your rent/mortgage has nothing to do with them or their property. Your utilities don't have anything to do with them. Yet you charge them for all of them. Why? Because you need X amount of $$ to live on. And yet you think it is wrong for me to charge for my business expenses.*


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ECS said:


> Do you not think that your few customers pay your rent/mortgage, utility bills, insurance, ect............ Believe it or not they do. Why? Your rent/mortgage has nothing to do with them or their property. Your utilities don't have anything to do with them. Yet you charge them for all of them. Why? Because you need X amount of $$ to live on. And yet you think it is wrong for me to charge for my business expenses.


Exactly my point. The stakes, the time to install them, the fuel to install them, the hammer, the insurance on the vehicle are all being paid for by the customer whether you line item it or not.

This is basic business, LLM and murray. Anything and everything that has to do with you performing a service is getting paid for by your customers, either directly via a line item or indirectly by your overhead. This goes for lawn or curb damage as well. It's just like an oil change or worn out tires\brakes\belts\mower blades\air filters\you name it, it is a cost of doing business that is figured into the total amount charged to the customer. If you don't charge the customer for ALL your costs of doing business, you won't be in business very long, it's simple math.

Use the wrapper for the McDonald's burger. If you line itemed that wrapper some people would get upset. But since it is built into the price of the burger, no one complains. What about all that premade food that doesn't get sold? Who pays for that? It comes out of that price you paid for your burger. McDonald's doesn't eat that expense. (pun intended, there I laughed) If they line itemed the expense for the burger that gets thrown away, then a lot of people would get upset but it's still there.

If none of this makes sense or is sinking in, I challenge both of you to print this thread off, take it to a CPA or accountant and ask him\her who is correct.

LLM, I do laugh, about things that are funny. What you and murray are giving as opinions is wrong and if you steer a newbie down the wrong path and cause him to fail and I hadn't given my opinions, I would feel terrible. Therefore I don't see much humor in a thread with so much misinformation. If you could both agree that staking, property damage, equipment repairs\damage and time all need to be accounted for in a price, then we are getting somewhere. If I sound arrogant, I'm sorry, but I know from experience, from learning, and from listening to business people way more successful and smarter than I am that I am, as well as SnoFarmer and ECS, that we are right about this issue. Like I said, if you don't believe us, check with the SBA or someone else who will do it free. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to apologize.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

crazymike said:


> Nobody has answered why they need to spend $1.50 on markers instead of cheapo/free wooden ones. I'm not bashing, just trying to see what I'm missing about these markers. I just can't justify that extra money for reflective material.


Time is money who has time to cut wood stakes and if a employee does it then it will cost me more than the ones at the store. Plus they look better


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Oy vey.

Charge your customers for whatever you want. If they dont care I dont care.

Just realize you couple guys that do it the way you do, are in a serious minority, and 99.9% of operators do it differently than you do.

Good luck and let it snow.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Oy vey.
> 
> Charge your customers for whatever you want. If they dont care I dont care.
> 
> ...


And just where did you get this information? Who took this poll? What was the error of margin in thes poll?
Or was this poll pulled out of ficticious # generated by you?
You are right thoug, you shouldn't care. 
You really need to re-evaluate your business plan. You need to charge what you are worth. You need to charge for your time. You need to charge for your expenses, all of them. You need to realize that you are in this to make money and to make a living running your business. You can not survive in business by not charging or not charging enough. You mentioned that you keep hitting walls and that this is your second venture into business. There may or may not be a lot of circumstances for this, but one that I can see is your lack of control for what your expenses really are, not just business expenses but perhaps personal expenses as well. All of these expenses are real and will not go away. If you have a job that pays you $20/hr full time, but your living expenses = more than what you make, you either get a part time job or you change jobs. Well now you work for yourself and your customers and need to adjust your prices and/or practices to cover everything.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

So I fix an an issue on my truck for four dollars, instead of maybe 800, you give me crap for it and then turn around and say I have a lack of control of my expenses.

Which is it.

You cant have it both ways sir.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

You did not fix it, you did a cheap tempory fix on it. 
The reason I gave you crap on it was because you were telling somone else what to do when you in fact did just the opposite of what you were telling the other person. Is it better to fill a cavity with wax, or go to the dentist and have the cavity taken care of?


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Tell the facts ECS. If you insist on hassling.

The other guy had drilled a hole through into a water jacket of a cylinder head. I had a simple exhaust leak.


Theres a difference.

I also said Id of tried the sealer on the the coolant leak too but would have been more concerned about that leaking, than I was my exhaust.

I get a little ticking noise if it fails.

His fails he gets a warped cylinder head or blown motor.

Ok? Comon. You're nitpicking and its rediculous.

Of course its better to get the tooth fixed properly, but if you dont have the money at the time, a temp filling will have to do.

Holy mackeral.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

My point is, if you are going to fix something, then fix it right.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Thanks for the advice. I guess if I charged old people to speak to me while I was mowing their lawns because they are lonely, or charged customers fifty bucks extra to install a half a dozen driveway markers I could aford the 800 dollar repair.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

LOL   Yeah, perhaps you could.  You can do anything you want to LLM, if you really want to. This old saying is Oh so True. Where there is a will, there is a way.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Thanks for the advice. I guess if I charged old people to speak to me while I was mowing their lawns because they are lonely, or charged customers fifty bucks extra to install a half a dozen driveway markers I could aford the 800 dollar repair.


O.k. you are working by the hr....

You are going about your work.
Then the home owner comes out (It does not matter if they are rich,poor,young or old) to shoot the ****.. who cares he(the homeowner) is paying for it.

If the plummer is working on your pipes and you stop them to shoot the breeze guess what!
He will stop and talk with you. why not? You are paying for it.

Do you think the clock stops.... It stops for no one.. time ispayup

Your time is worth money get what you are worth. It's called making a living


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Right........


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

*Right........* 
Is that like Right you understand?
Or is it Right to be sarcastic?
Or is it Right to try and shut us up?

BTW, these are all valid questions.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

What.........?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ECS said:


> *Right........*
> Or is it Right to be sarcastic?
> Or is it Right to try and shut us up?
> 
> BTW, these are all valid questions.


Yes to both.

Guys, I am getting the feeling that LLM is just playing us, he is doing everything he can to be contentious and argumentative. He truly is being a troll. As soon as he gets backed into a corner with logic, he starts answering with 1 word or 1 liners instead of trying to debate honest-to-goodness facts, which he can't because he is wrong. The only other 'members' that have come close to his number of posts in as short a period of time as he has have always ended up being banned, check with Mick on this, he'll back me up from the old days.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I think it's time for us to just leave LLM alone in his miserable little world where all he does is ***** and give worthless one line responses with a lol at the end. And be thankful he's in Ann Arbor and not Jackson or MN.

ECS, has Jackson changed much in the past 10 years? I was out there in Feb of '97 for some sledding, skiing and snowshoeing. It is truly God's country, the most beautiful area I've seen. I'd love to move there, I just can't convince my wife.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

I want to jump in for a minute.

I stake my own properties. 

I don't line item, but it's factored into the overhead.

I don't talk with customers, but I also don't go out of my way to be available to them.

I feel the way I want to run my business, is to charge a FAIRly high rate, not the highest, but enough where I can absorb costs that may not have been foreseen, without much of an impact to the budget.

I charge a fair price for fair work.

If someone comes across that they want pristine work done, they're going to pay a pristine price.

I have a bank that I've guaranteed they're going to be plowed at 6 am.

I do not have a line item on the monthly bill stating $*****.** for guaranteed plowing at 6 am, but it's factored into the flat fee of that bank.

I switched to monthly fees to get away from line item billing.

I felt I had many many more complaints / concerns / questions when I line itemed, than I do now when I send a bill that says "Snowplowing for November, payment #1 of 6 for the 2006-2007 season."

What is there to argue about there??? Other than this month, when it didn't snow, or like last year, when I charged for November, December and January and it didn't snow until February 2nd here, the only thing to complain about is Mother Nature. Either it isn't snowing enough so the customers feel like they're paying for no work performed, or it's snowing too much, and I have to get out of bed.

For me, the factor is to get people to stop calling and asking, just pay the bill you agreed to, and let me live my life.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes to both.
> 
> Guys, I am getting the feeling that LLM is just playing us, he is doing everything he can to be contentious and argumentative. He truly is being a troll..


Amen brother.

I have not responded to him for that reason and noticed what you said a while ago. I work on-line and see much of this in my work. In my work I visit up to 25 message boards a day at times and a minimum of 5. I see it all to often and realize there are blowhards about every subject.

The thing to remember here is he is a sub of a sub. He is not practicing anything he gives advice on here and seems to have a hard time understanding basic business 101.

If I work for a guy and don't make him X per hour so he can pay me I am fired. If I am running a business and don't make x per hour to cover costs the doors will be closed.

Even when I am a sub pushing snow. I may get $X0.oo per hour a hour but when I subtract my gas and insurance costs and wear on the truck and plow I make what I deem enough for me to be out there doing it. I have seen guys do it for cheaper but most time not for long or they sell the truck the next year saying it isn't worth it and don't know how someone can make money doing it. I just don't talk about what I get per hour to others.

This is a reason low-ballers don't bother me much either they do it at 1st to get started or to get a job and the next year adjust their price to what it really is worth or they are gone.

One thing I don't try to do though is give advice on things I have not done in the past or know nothing about.

As far as the steaks go.

I'll take mine med well.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I still want an answer to why if you close 90-95% of your bids are you sub-subcontracting?? Or even subcontracting for that matter? 

You ought to be running every other plower in Ann Arbor out of business and be running a huge fleet of glued together trucks.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I still want an answer to why if you close 90-95% of your bids are you sub-subcontracting?? Or even subcontracting for that matter?
> 
> You ought to be running every other plower in Ann Arbor out of business and be running a huge fleet of glued together trucks.


Because I have a mix of sub work and my own work Mark. I also do Lawn Care and that figure is inclusive of that aspect of the business. Granted...getting the phone to ring is a challenge as it is with all new guys in the business.

And I sub for a sub on one property where the contract is owned by a very large National snow company. Theyve subbed the job to one guy, and because its a little out of his area he subs it to me. I get a good wage, and I am hopeful that one day I can be as succcessful as some of you guys.

I may do things differently than some of you do them, and not to sound like a girl, but theres a lot of people here that agree with me. Maybe not my methods here on the board but my way of addressing this work from a fair perspective. Of course they dont want to get involved in the "discussion" because they dont want to be outcast or argue with 15 different posters who may see it differently.

Ive been around forum boards too Reaper. I know all to well how this scenario works and plays out.

edited for spelling and if theres still spelling erors, you be sure to point them out please.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer said:


> It's not flattering but I'm sure some of you have felt the same way....SnoFarmer..:waving:


Not a single bit, I have no idea what you're referring to.

And don't forget lol


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> This is basic business, LLM and murray. Anything and everything that has to do with you performing a service is getting paid for by your customers, either directly via a line item or indirectly by your overhead. This goes for lawn or curb damage as well. It's just like an oil change or worn out tires\brakes\belts\mower blades\air filters\you name it, it is a cost of doing business that is figured into the total amount charged to the customer. If you don't charge the customer for ALL your costs of doing business, you won't be in business very long, it's simple math.
> 
> Use the wrapper for the McDonald's burger. If you line itemed that wrapper some people would get upset. But since it is built into the price of the burger, no one complains. What about all that premade food that doesn't get sold? Who pays for that? It comes out of that price you paid for your burger. McDonald's doesn't eat that expense. (pun intended, there I laughed) If they line itemed the expense for the burger that gets thrown away, then a lot of people would get upset but it's still there.
> 
> ...


I WAS agreeing with you that any damages,staking should be in your price seasonal or per push

If I charge $1000 per year for snow removal for a property that thousand includes fuel,insurance,repairs on the truck,any possible damages,staking in needed etc etc.

The only disagreement in this entire thread I had was with ECS billing time to a customer for shooting the ****,and hey,if it works for him great but it wouldn't for me.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

It has been said that I am taking advantage of the customer and overcharging them. That is fine, you can believe what you wish, that is your choice. If I had seasonal contracts, then yes I would include them for sure. I do not have seasonal contracts, heck I don't even use contracts as I don't feel the need for them. Will this bite me in the ass one day, perhaps, but I don't think so with the customers I have. That is not to say it won't though. I know the risks and that is my choice to either use them or not.

As far as me ripping the customer off by charging them for my time and materials, I will give you one of the many examples of me over charging. Customer A had a large landscaping company doing his plowing on his little drive. Other company was charging customer A $25 per push, no snow stakes. ECS charges him $37.50 and charges for my time and stakes. Customer A says fine.
Customer A needed work done with his irrigation company. Same landscaper, who had taken care of it for years, could have been called. Customer A calls me, never asks for a price and asks me to do the work. Being solo, this took me have the summer to complete at my leisure when I was done with my lawns (and my price per hour is the same as large landscaper). Customer A could have had this done in 1 or 2 days with large company, but chose to use me. Then customer A asks me to stain his new deck and to check on his house twice a month all winter. So if I am that bad as to charge for things, and if some think I am over charging and not being fair to the customer, please explain to me why Customer A wants me over the others. BTW, this is all true, there is no BS in what I just posted and this has happened to me with other customers as well. So please help me understand what I am doing wrong here.

BTW, I also live in a small town. The entire county has just over 12,000 people. Competition is fierce, everyone has a plow on their truck. Lots and lots of landscapers in this valley. It is at least a 45 min drive to the next town in any direction.



> The only disagreement in this entire thread I had was with ECS billing time to a customer for shooting the ****,and hey,if it works for him great but it wouldn't for me.


 I see this really does bother some of you guys. Why should it? If my people are willing to pay for my time, for what ever the reason, why is that wrong. Is it wrong because I can get paind for this and you can't? Come on, I want to here this. My time is money, simple as that. If it is so wrong, then why are they still paying me? Why have they given me full run of the property and their house? Why do they rely on me for everything that pertains to their house and their property?


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes to both.
> 
> Guys, I am getting the feeling that LLM is just playing us, he is doing everything he can to be contentious and argumentative. He truly is being a troll. As soon as he gets backed into a corner with logic, he starts answering with 1 word or 1 liners instead of trying to debate honest-to-goodness facts, which he can't because he is wrong. The only other 'members' that have come close to his number of posts in as short a period of time as he has have always ended up being banned, check with Mick on this, he'll back me up from the old days.
> 
> ...


Mark, it has changed a lot in the past 10 years. Mostly more expensive. Yes it is GOD's country and the reason we moved here 17 plus years ago. IWe were tired of the rat race back east. Even though we are not making what we were, we have a much higher quality of life. I have all the hunting, fishing, camping and skiing anyone could ever want right in my backyard.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

ECS 

This is business, you charge what you can, what the market will bear. 

Stakes for me, are part of my overhead - and yes Mark, the customer does pay for it, they just don't see it on a bill. That's the way I choose to do things. I personally think the cost of stakes SAVES me money by preventing damage. I really don't even consider the cost of staking when bidding other than two particularly long private drives we do, way more stakes per square foot than average, so I guess, maybe I do consider them.

Bashed for the way you invoice?? I don't think that's right, do what you do, as long as it works for you. 

But, with all that being said, I personally don't think it's right. In my eyes, I think it's misleading in this way :

My bid is laying next to yours on a desk, my price is higher by a small amount and I don't get the job. You get it (this is still assuming your bid was per nite like mine but yours said plus staking) even though your yearly cost will be higher than what I would have charged. 

I see this as bait and switch - I know you aren't doing that on purpose, at least it seems that way, but the bottom line is that the customer chose you because of your lower price but you charged more - remember this is all theoretical here...........

Locally, there is someone that bids some jobs per hour for a truck with a six foot blade. I'm sure there's six foot truck blades somewhere, but he ain't got any. This is a rather large landscaper also.... We've bid against each other where mine is per nite, don't care how much snow there is and his is this ultra cheap per hour rate. On two occasions, after the season, we went back and compared what the other company charged verses what I would have charged, numbers were very close - but yet his hourly rate was ultra low??????????? I think that is misleading, dishonest and bullchit. I know others that bid low hourly rates and bill 1.5 hr per hour of actual work, same thing..........

In construction, we have the same thing. Vaguely worded quotes, no statement of exact materials and such, it just makes it hard to bid things.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

*This is business, you charge what you can, what the market will bear. *

Exactly, and my customers are happy. They are happy and I make money. That is what it is all about.

*My bid is laying next to yours on a desk, my price is higher by a small amount and I don't get the job. You get it (this is still assuming your bid was per nite like mine but yours said plus staking) even though your yearly cost will be higher than what I would have charged. *

I can see your point, but in my example above, my per push quote was $15.50 higher than the other, plus my time for the stakes and the cost of the stakes.


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## Charles (Dec 21, 1999)

Try to avoid the personal attacks. Otherwise, you will just be wasting your time typing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

framer1901 said:


> Stakes for me, are part of my overhead - and yes Mark, the customer does pay for it, they just don't see it on a bill. That's the way I choose to do things. I personally think the cost of stakes SAVES me money by preventing damage. I really don't even consider the cost of staking when bidding other than two particularly long private drives we do, way more stakes per square foot than average, so I guess, maybe I do consider them.


Excellent, another who truly understands business principles. Not sure if I said it or not, but mine are included in overhead as well, but it does show on the invoice that the service was performed.

Murray, apparently I misunderstood you in this thread, I apologize for that.

Sort of funny, other than 1 person, the main thrust of this argument comes down to whether the stakes are included or invoiced separately. It really doesn't matter as long as we understand that it _is_ a cost of doing business and that it is recovered.

ECS, the slower pace and the beauty is what really attracted me. Who cares if you're not making the same amount of money if you have the scenery that you do and a greatly reduced stress level in the place one chooses to live. Not to mention, very few people. I'm going to keep working on my wife, see if I can convince her, not likely though.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

ECS said:


> I see this really does bother some of you guys. Why should it? If my people are willing to pay for my time, for what ever the reason, why is that wrong. Is it wrong because I can get paind for this and you can't? Come on, I want to here this. My time is money, simple as that. If it is so wrong, then why are they still paying me? Why have they given me full run of the property and their house? Why do they rely on me for everything that pertains to their house and their property?


Nah man just stating that was the only thing I myself didn't understand with in this entire thread and was interested to hear your side of it and you stated it,what you do is your buisness and if it works for you great more power to you.No offence or bashing was directed at you in any way by myself.

Mark,no worries all's cool on my end.


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

murray83 said:


> Nah man just stating that was the only thing I myself didn't understand with in this entire thread and was interested to hear your side of it and you stated it,what you do is your buisness and if it works for you great more power to you.No offence or bashing was directed at you in any way by myself.


murray, here is the situatuation with the customer paying me to talk. Perhaps you missed it when I posted it before.

*one owner stops me and talks to me for 30-60 min a week. Ususally about hunting and fishing. His lawn takes me 2.5 hrs a week to do. I am there for 3 1/2 to 4 hrs a week. His lawn price is based on 3.5 hrs a week because of the time I am there. If I am done with the lawn uninterupted, like when he is busy or not there, and there is other work to be done, I do it at no extra charge up to the 3.5. He gets charged for anything over the 3.5 hrs. He is there just about every week and they pay me for the time to chat. That is time that I could be doing another property at the same rate. They know this and they are fine with this. If I am done uninterupted and no other work to be done then I make a few exra $$.*


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

As I said I read that and if you do ok with it then more power to you.

If I was to do that here in my area,I'd be screamed at.Again ECS no offence and I'm not bashing your buisness practices.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Let it Snow!


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## rayf268 (Oct 13, 2006)

ECS said:


> *Funny thing. I spoke to a mechanic in town today for a half hour about a concern with my truck and he said right out of the blue....conversation is free.*
> I also explained this situation to you which you keep twisting around like a cork screw. I can talk to my machanic for free to. But if he is working on my truck, and I stop him and talk to nim, the clock is still running at $85.00 an hour. If I stop him while he is working on sombody elses truck, the clock is still running and someone is going to pay for that time. So you are not necassarily talking for nothing. If your machanic is, then he is the idiot. *Conversation is frr, but time is not.*
> 
> *I know that most auto shops charge a hourly rate per job meaning they look in there book or computer it will tell them How many labor hours to charge then thats the charge .
> ...


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## rayf268 (Oct 13, 2006)

does anyone have any oppions on the cheap wire flag markers that you can get for a few $ for a hundred . I know they won't last long after the first big snow but you won't need them much after that anyway .???


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

rayf268 said:


> does anyone have any oppions on the cheap wire flag markers that you can get for a few $ for a hundred . I know they won't last long after the first big snow but you won't need them much after that anyway .???


That's what I use, along with a large majority of the people that stake the properties around here.

I can get 100 for $7 at Home Depot, I know another company orders them with their name on them for advertising.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Wire markers would work if youy get snow in small amounts I suppose. They'd be buried by noon tomorrow around here though................

I personally want my stakes to last all year, less chance for damage.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Im considering using my Lawn Care stakes that I use for the state posting with some dayglo orange paint on them for a few simple resis, and I always cut my four footers in half and bring my price down by half on those. They look less intrusive on the prop, tend not to fall over or get the lean going, and with the low snowfalls we have been getting will always still be visible.


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## kemmer (Dec 5, 2003)

i just ordered some from Ron Don. they are pretty good, solid, annd 4' long. they were 1.38


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