# Employee using equipment for themselves - theft? Fraud?



## edgeair

I think I'm in the right section here - hopefully. 

Thanks to our investment in GPS trackers over the past couple of years, I have discovered a recent hire (and to a lesser extent a season long employee) doing driveways and a small parking lot while on company time, for others when they are already behind on their regular route. In one case the one guy had to leave early for an appointment, did a small parking lot for himself, but didn't get his route done that he was supposed to do. Guess his side skimming job was priority. I have had minor problems with this in the past, but this time its fairly major, like 7-8 driveways plus a small parking lot each time. Last time he also (after doing his own large driveway) spent an hour on the clock at his house with the ignition off. Breaks are unpaid time. When asked why he was taking longer than normal to do that part of his route (I already knew why), he replied that he had to make a quick stop at timmies (Tim Hortons for you non Canadian types). My GPS system is set up to show exactly when the PTO turns on and off, and I went around and took photographs of the completed jobs (they were on streets that we do not normally service). 

Due to the volume, I decided to inquire with the local Police department to see if the activities amounted to theft or fraud (really whats the difference between this and handing something over the counter at a retail outlet, its still has value). At the minimum I figure its some form of fraud or embezzlement. They are using my $100k rig to do driveways for their buddies (or selling their services, not sure) while on my clock. This guy is a local business owner which to me makes his activities even worse. He had the nerve to even suggest we should do further business and sponsorships together.

Tonight the officer says after a week of waiting for an answer, that its not something that they wish to pursue (bascially they still don't know how to classify it) with the crown prosecutor. 

Have any of you guys run into this kind of thing before (where you've caught them in the act)? Especially those in Canada. I know this happens all the time in this business, but the boldness of this particular case is what has caused me to act. 

I'd be interested to know if any of you were able to do more than just fire the guy. Were you successful in recovering costs, or having them charged with an offence?


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## shawn_

I would assume the worst thing that you can do is fire them. You could dock their pay accordingly if you wanted but the easiet situation would be fire.


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## edgeair

shawn_;2122713 said:


> I would assume the worst thing that you can do is fire them. You could dock their pay accordingly if you wanted but the easiet situation would be fire.


Yes, for sure its a given that they are done. Just looking for ideas otherwise.


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## SnoFarmer

call a lawyer.
fire hem then take then to court, for theft.
jmo or fire them and move on.


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## sota

As a divorce attorney once advised me, get out of the arrangement as quickly as you can so you can move on. Hand them their pay and tell them never to darken your door again. You could try and dock them for the usage of equipment but how would you quantify it and do you want the potential for them to come after you (legally) for it?

Now as an additional measure, you could visit the sites they were using your equipment to service and see if there's business to be had there now. That's up to you if you want the work though.


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## JD Dave

Your better off to just move on and be done with him. If he was a stellar productive employee I might over look a few things but not when he's letting your work suffer for his profit.


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## newhere

I would take the advise from these last two guys. Move on. You are waisting your time and sanity dwelling on it. Don't give it any more thought. Fire then. Explain why and that's it.


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## fireball

If you don't have a written policy prohibiting such usage that they signed that they received it, you might not have much leverage in court. Just fire them for being hairy ******** and send them on their way. Then travel around to each site that they were doing and state the facts as you know them. You might have 9 new customers.


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## seville009

It's theft/embezzlement. Theystole your fuel, etc for their gain. No different than if they took cash from your wallet and spent it on fuel for their truck to plow on their own. 

You should have them both arrested (and fired). That will make it clear to other employees that you won't put up with it (or sweep it under the rug). If you have multiple employees already screwing you like this, the word is clearly out that they think you won't do anything.

Plus - you could be held liable for a slip and fall or accident on their lots.


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## Pristine PM ltd

You are in Toronto right? I think the right detective might take the case


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## edgeair

Thats the concern I have. I would just fire and move on normally, but the 2nd one didn't start doing this until the newest clown did. They know each other otherwise. I caught them (mainly the new hire) bad mouthing me and the business on our company 2 ways - without any sort of justification (they were out on a Sunday doing drift cleanups and plowback cleanups and I guess they felt that there wasn't enough to warrant their time even though they are paid hourly and its been a slow winter. They assumed that I was at home watching the game with a few choice words thrown in. In actuality I was out filling in for a shoveller that didn't show up due to a death in the family). Its like he has poisoned the rest of the employees attitudes. I lost one shoveller after that storm and the only thing he would say is that he heard on the 2 way that I don't pay my guys (it was my 'friend' spouting off about how he hadn't received his cheque - even though he had only started the week before and we are on a biweekly pay cycle with payday occurring the Friday after the pay period cut off - pretty standard and he was well aware of the terms when he started).


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## edgeair

Pristine PM ltd;2122871 said:


> You are in Toronto right? I think the right detective might take the case


No not in the city. 2 hours away in small town rural Ontario.


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## Mark Oomkes

For those recommending prosecution (which in a just world, edgeair should have a case) you did read the part aboot him already contacting the LE and they won't do anything aboot it, right?


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## alldayrj

You're a calmer man than me. I would have showed up mid plow and pulled him out of the truck and had him walk home. Fire and move on. These guys decide you shorted them 15 mins and you will find yourself audited, comp suits, civil suits, epa, dec, department of labor etc. everything is set up in their favor


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## edgeair

Mark Oomkes;2122886 said:


> For those recommending prosecution (which in a just world, edgeair should have a case) you did read the part aboot him already contacting the LE and they won't do anything aboot it, right?


That is the real thing I am asking here. If anyone else has run into this and had the PD take it on and was a charge filed.

The exact wording of the message I received from the local town cop was "my supervisor doesn't think the crown would take that on." This to me means that they are not sure how to classify it (like he said when I met with him originally) and aren't sure how to proceed. A theft is a theft regardless of the amount. They take on shoplifters that take a pack of gum, this is worth much more than that, just that there isn't a 'physical item' stolen. I had an employee use a fuel card a couple years ago for his own vehicle and took about $400 in fuel before I received a statement the following month. They charged him for that. This issue has added up to more than $500 if I count the amount I would normally charge for a one time clearing x the number of times he's done it.

I called the crown attorney office, but thats a dead end as they only talk to the police and don't give legal advice.


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## edgeair

alldayrj;2122891 said:


> You're a calmer man than me. I would have showed up mid plow and pulled him out of the truck and had him walk home. Fire and move on. These guys decide you shorted them 15 mins and you will find yourself audited, comp suits, civil suits, epa, dec, department of labor etc. everything is set up in their favor


You hit the nail on the head there. Yes, I try to take the calm approach. Worst part was I knew it was going on 'live' on my phone screen, but I needed the job to get done as I was already down a guy that day.


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## Mark Oomkes

edgeair;2122892 said:


> I called the crown attorney office, but thats a dead end as they only talk to the police and don't give legal advice.


That was going to be my suggestion, but obviously too late.


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes;2122886 said:


> For those recommending prosecution (which in a just world, edgeair should have a case) you did read the part aboot him already contacting the LE and they won't do anything aboot it, right?


just because the local yokel doesn't want to serve , doesn't mean you let thief of your equipment go.
When his employees went to plow those drives and that lot, at that point they were steeling the equipment, plowing without INS and stealing time. 
a lawyer will gather the evidence to bring this body of work to the DA, and or to civil court.
if the city DA is lazy take it to the county. ruffle a few feathers if ya have to.

maybe he needs to go to these places and talk to the owners and see if they did any damage.

he just has to figure out what he wants to do.
or is it worth it because he got lucky and there is no loss other than the time.

what would have happened if there was a slip fall or they got into a accident when they stole the equipment to go freelancing?
.

At a union shop i worked at they would seek prosecution.


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## Mark Oomkes

Would be nice if jasonv would add his tooney to this discussion.


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## SnoFarmer

You can file the charges or have your lawyer do it,
the DA will have no say in it...
it will be obstruction if he tries to stop it.
you just need to swear out a statement, and they will be charged.


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## Mr.Markus

It is a breach of trust issue according to the law. That would be your dismissal language. I would think you could sue them personally in court after having determined the amount of lost time, wages, fuel,wear and tear etc.
I can believe as a business owner that it is hard to let go, but how much are you really going to retrieve? Judging by character traits they don't have 2 nickels to rub together. So you will be just trying to make a point, a more expensive one than it is now...


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer;2122900 said:


> just because the local yokel doesn't want to serve , doesn't mean you let thief of your equipment go.
> When his employees went to plow those drives and that lot, at that point they were steeling the equipment, plowing without INS and stealing time.
> a lawyer will gather the evidence to bring this body of work to the DA, and or to civil court.
> if the city DA is lazy take it to the county. ruffle a few feathers if ya have to.
> 
> maybe he needs to go to these places and talk to the owners and see if they did any damage.
> 
> he just has to figure out what he wants to do.
> or is it worth it because he got lucky and there is no loss other than the time.
> 
> what would have happened if there was a slip fall or they got into a accident when they stole the equipment to go freelancing?
> .
> 
> At a union shop i worked at they would seek prosecution.





SnoFarmer;2122910 said:


> You can file the charges or have your lawyer do it,
> the DA will have no say in it...
> it will be obstruction if he tries to stop it.
> you just need to swear out a statement, and they will be charged.


I agree, but the OP is from Kannada, so the laws may be different.


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## Pristine PM ltd

I agree, but I like making points. We had a guy steal a blower, and major crimes arrested him in front of a crew. So it was effective.


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## edgeair

Pristine PM ltd;2122949 said:


> I agree, but I like making points. We had a guy steal a blower, and major crimes arrested him in front of a crew. So it was effective.


That's what I'm looking at here. Send a message. The value is small potatoes to most but it's a bad precedent to leave it alone. The guy has money, so getting it out of him might work. Too bad the law doesn't allow me to take it off wages without him signing an agreement to do so. Time to sit him down with an ultimatum maybe, but I'd rather have some ammunition like pending charges to pressure him with.

To the guys that said press charges, I'm not sure we can do that here but it's something I plan to ask about.


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## peteo1

Call a company mandatory meeting and tell your employees this will not be tolerated. After a short but sweet speech have the local authorities escort these two thieves off the property. I'd be willing to bet the rest of your guys would mind their p's & q's not to mention word of that would travel and let people know you dont put up with thieves. Then call your attorney and see what kind of a case can be brought against the two former employees


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## Philbilly2

If it makes you feel any better, I had this happen on a different scale. The story that I will tell here was a project that was in the mid five figure range. (which is a pretty good little project for my company size) Keeps a few of my guys working for a few weeks.



I had a employee that was on my payroll as an estimator bidding jobs for me.

I received a call from my union local business agent asking which one of my employees was working on a certain job. My company name and contractor licence was on the permit, but in all the times that he stopped at the job he was never able to be there when one of my employees was. I informed him that we bid the project, but we were not low bidder and did not get the job. He advised that I look into this as my name was on the permit.

So, I made a call to my estimator and asked him about this job if he knew anything about why our name is in the permit if we don't have the job. He said he knew nothing about it. So I dug a little further and called the village building and permits department and found that the person that filed for the permit was me... really??? I asked the village to fax the paperwork to my office as I was not there but would like to see it. When I returned to the office, no fax. Asked my estimator and he said he had not seen a fax all day. So I called village again and asked them if the could send it again as it did not seem to come threw. So they did, and I got it. Crazy thing... I write in all caps... all the time. This permit application was in upper and lower case, and it matched my estimator's writing style almost to a tee. So, I just kept this info to myself and called my business agent back and asked him the correct route to take on this to get him in the most amount of sh*t that I could. He said that if he could catch him working on the job, and get pictures he can do some damage. So I called my BA when my guy left my office that day and said that he might be headed there. Sure as the day was long, he was. BA caught him on the job, got pictures of him carrying tools along with a couple of other moonlight side jobbers all from my local.

Called the general on the project and asked them what the number was and who the contractor was that got that project. Found out it was the number that he turned in for me minus exactly $1000.00 to the cent. The general was very reluctant to give me the contractor that got the project's name as he was sort of in on the whole deal. Once I informed him that my name was on the permit, and I would be filing a lawsuit for the theft of my license... he back pedaled and said that it was my guy's side company that was doing the project for him but he had no idea that he stole my contractor's license number. My guy told him that he had his own contractors number.

So, the next day when he showed up in the morning, I had his personal items in a box outside of the door. (along with the copy of the fax from the village earlier in the day yesterday that I found in his desk drawer) I asked him for his truck keys, his office keys, and shop keys, along with his (my) cell phone. He looked at me like I was nuts. I informed him that he had limited time to leave my property and find a ride back to his house before I was contacting the Sheriff for criminal trespassing. Advised him that it is in his best interest to walk to the gas station and see if he can use their phone as this was a done deal. He could not understand why he was fired and I calmly explained to him that he was bidding projects on my time and getting paid my me for that time, then double breasting the projects for himself. He denied it up and down. I closed the office door and he stood outside the door for a few minutes, picked up his box and walked away.

Called the Village, informed them to pull my license off that job as the paperwork was false, and my license number was stolen to apply for permit. Not sure how that played out, but relay did not care to much as long as my name was not on the project.

But, the story gets better. He had the balls to file unemployment on me for "Lack of work" I protested it and informed them that he was FIRED for thief. Days later, received a call from the unemployment office asking for more info and payroll information. The guy from the unemployment office was having trouble with this whole ordeal as my former employee was still getting checks for unemployment from the last company that he was working for while he was receiving payroll checks from my company. So I gave my statement on a recorded line explaining the entire reason that he as fired and it had nothing to do with "Lack of work" and sent all of my payroll journals via e-mail to this guy. So they went after him for all the money that he was receiving from his previous employer's unemployment plus damages.

But... I got even better! My BA informed a few weeks later me that the job that he was doing was a prevailing wage project that required certified payroll reports. So now, he has the government to deal with... and they are a whole different ball of wax.

Sorry for the long winded post...

But, you need to nip this in the butt ASAP as it will only get worse and might cost you a TON of money is something goes wrong.


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## FredG

It's definitely criminal. You had no contract agreement on the sites these crooks were plowing with your equip. ins etc. I'd make sure these crooks clients know you will be servicing from now on. Legally I don't want to comment or if I pursue or close one eye. Nine accounts you picked up got to be a decent gain. If you can get law enforcement to pick them up go for it.


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## Randall Ave

Have been in roughly same situation. There fired now. As stated above, you call a meeting and tell your employees this will not be tolerated.


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## edgeair

Philbilly2;2123017 said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I had this happen on a different scale. The story that I will tell here was a project that was in the mid five figure range. (which is a pretty good little project for my company size) Keeps a few of my guys working for a few weeks.
> 
> I had a employee that was on my payroll as an estimator bidding jobs for me.
> 
> I received a call from my union local business agent asking which one of my employees was working on a certain job. My company name and contractor licence was on the permit, but in all the times that he stopped at the job he was never able to be there when one of my employees was. I informed him that we bid the project, but we were not low bidder and did not get the job. He advised that I look into this as my name was on the permit.
> 
> So, I made a call to my estimator and asked him about this job if he knew anything about why our name is in the permit if we don't have the job. He said he knew nothing about it. So I dug a little further and called the village building and permits department and found that the person that filed for the permit was me... really??? I asked the village to fax the paperwork to my office as I was not there but would like to see it. When I returned to the office, no fax. Asked my estimator and he said he had not seen a fax all day. So I called village again and asked them if the could send it again as it did not seem to come threw. So they did, and I got it. Crazy thing... I write in all caps... all the time. This permit application was in upper and lower case, and it matched my estimator's writing style almost to a tee. So, I just kept this info to myself and called my business agent back and asked him the correct route to take on this to get him in the most amount of sh*t that I could. He said that if he could catch him working on the job, and get pictures he can do some damage. So I called my BA when my guy left my office that day and said that he might be headed there. Sure as the day was long, he was. BA caught him on the job, got pictures of him carrying tools along with a couple of other moonlight side jobbers all from my local.
> 
> Called the general on the project and asked them what the number was and who the contractor was that got that project. Found out it was the number that he turned in for me minus exactly $1000.00 to the cent. The general was very reluctant to give me the contractor that got the project's name as he was sort of in on the whole deal. Once I informed him that my name was on the permit, and I would be filing a lawsuit for the theft of my license... he back pedaled and said that it was my guy's side company that was doing the project for him but he had no idea that he stole my contractor's license number. My guy told him that he had his own contractors number.
> 
> So, the next day when he showed up in the morning, I had his personal items in a box outside of the door. (along with the copy of the fax from the village earlier in the day yesterday that I found in his desk drawer) I asked him for his truck keys, his office keys, and shop keys, along with his (my) cell phone. He looked at me like I was nuts. I informed him that he had limited time to leave my property and find a ride back to his house before I was contacting the Sheriff for criminal trespassing. Advised him that it is in his best interest to walk to the gas station and see if he can use their phone as this was a done deal. He could not understand why he was fired and I calmly explained to him that he was bidding projects on my time and getting paid my me for that time, then double breasting the projects for himself. He denied it up and down. I closed the office door and he stood outside the door for a few minutes, picked up his box and walked away.
> 
> Called the Village, informed them to pull my license off that job as the paperwork was false, and my license number was stolen to apply for permit. Not sure how that played out, but relay did not care to much as long as my name was not on the project.
> 
> But, the story gets better. He had the balls to file unemployment on me for "Lack of work" I protested it and informed them that he was FIRED for thief. Days later, received a call from the unemployment office asking for more info and payroll information. The guy from the unemployment office was having trouble with this whole ordeal as my former employee was still getting checks for unemployment from the last company that he was working for while he was receiving payroll checks from my company. So I gave my statement on a recorded line explaining the entire reason that he as fired and it had nothing to do with "Lack of work" and sent all of my payroll journals via e-mail to this guy. So they went after him for all the money that he was receiving from his previous employer's unemployment plus damages.
> 
> But... I got even better! My BA informed a few weeks later me that the job that he was doing was a prevailing wage project that required certified payroll reports. So now, he has the government to deal with... and they are a whole different ball of wax.
> 
> Sorry for the long winded post...
> 
> But, you need to nip this in the butt ASAP as it will only get worse and might cost you a TON of money is something goes wrong.


Appreciate your input. You certainly got screwed for more than what I am talking about here. Something similar happened to me a few years back with a construction project, but not near as bold as that guy was. Its amazing that these guys think they can just do this to an employer, but unfortunately the law appears to be on their side.


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## Mr.Markus

Philbilly2's story was just like watching Making a Murderer....I'm hooked.


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## edgeair

FredG;2123018 said:


> It's definitely criminal. You had no contract agreement on the sites these crooks were plowing with your equip. ins etc. I'd make sure these crooks clients know you will be servicing from now on. Legally I don't want to comment or if I pursue or close one eye. Nine accounts you picked up got to be a decent gain. If you can get law enforcement to pick them up go for it.


I consider it criminal too. However it seems the law here does not.


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## edgeair

Thanks for everyone's input, keep the stories coming. 

I did speak with a lawyer today and he said the line is very fine between what is criminal and what is contract law on this. He says the cops are right, that if they are just pocketing the money from people that don't have contracts with me, its not criminal (????!!!!!). If they were pocketing the money from my customers, then it would be fraud and breach of trust funds and would be criminal. Personally I don't see the difference, its still theft and the result is the same either way.


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## seville009

edgeair;2123140 said:


> Thanks for everyone's input, keep the stories coming.
> 
> I did speak with a lawyer today and he said the line is very fine between what is criminal and what is contract law on this. He says the cops are right, that if they are just pocketing the money from people that don't have contracts with me, its not criminal (????!!!!!). If they were pocketing the money from my customers, then it would be fraud and breach of trust funds and would be criminal. Personally I don't see the difference, its still theft and the result is the same either way.


Don't focus on them pocketing the money; the crime is them stealing your gas and the use of your equipment for them to gain economically. In addition, I assume you were paying them wages while they were doing this work, so they've committed fraud from that respect.


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## edgeair

seville009;2123144 said:


> Don't focus on them pocketing the money; the crime is them stealing your gas and the use of your equipment for them to gain economically. In addition, I assume you were paying them wages while they were doing this work, so they've committed fraud from that respect.


Yes I agree, theres more to it than what happens to the money. If I walked into someones yard and jumped in their truck and used it to plow one of my lots, I wouldn't have to worry about how much salt to put down after as I would be in irons.

Its ok when an employee does it to an employer though...


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## JD Dave

edgeair;2123146 said:


> Yes I agree, theres more to it than what happens to the money. If I walked into someones yard and jumped in their truck and used it to plow one of my lots, I wouldn't have to worry about how much salt to put down after as I would be in irons.
> 
> Its ok when an employee does it to an employer though...


No you'd just argue the fact that it looked like your truck and you were mistaken and you'd most likely get off. We caught guys loading our 1500 gallon poly water tanks with Honda pumps and hoses onto a pickup. They were full of water on specially built wagons sitting in the field my dad was spraying. The guys said they were told to pick up water tanks and thought these were the right ones. The cops agreed and that it was a mistake and since we caught them before they drove off our property there was wasn't much that could be done. Have you ever seen what a 1500 gallon tank looks like in the back of a pickup. LOL Sorry off topic but the cards are stacked against the honest hard working people.


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## jhenderson9196

The main problem I see with a theft charge is they were being paid to drive the truck. They didn't take it without permission. I know it's splitting hairs but it's the way the law seems to work today. Show them the door in a very public way. Make sure the whole crew sees it and understands the circumstances.


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## edgeair

JD Dave;2123177 said:


> No you'd just argue the fact that it looked like your truck and you were mistaken and you'd most likely get off. We caught guys loading our 1500 gallon poly water tanks with Honda pumps and hoses onto a pickup. They were full of water on specially built wagons sitting in the field my dad was spraying. The guys said they were told to pick up water tanks and thought these were the right ones. The cops agreed and that it was a mistake and since we caught them before they drove off our property there was wasn't much that could be done. Have you ever seen what a 1500 gallon tank looks like in the back of a pickup. LOL Sorry off topic but the cards are stacked against the honest hard working people.


I hear ya there. Except in this case they can't say it was a 'mistake' that they 'accidentally' cleared 8 driveways and a small lot that wasn't on their checklist and their checklist states to contact me before doing any property not on their list. On top of that, not finishing their list because they had an appointment to go to thereby necessitating me having to clear 2 small lots that the machine is far better suited than the truck I was driving. But.... They did have time to do the extras at the end of their run.... Yeah it must be an accident lol


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## Philbilly2

Mr.Markus;2123137 said:


> Philbilly2's story was just like watching Making a Murderer....I'm hooked.


Hard to make this sh*t up...

I wish it was not true as I like to think I am a good judge of character... new there was something fishy about this cat, but I had no idea it would go that deep...  Boy was I wrong...


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## Philbilly2

edgeair;2123187 said:


> I hear ya there. Except in this case they can't say it was a 'mistake' that they 'accidentally' cleared 8 driveways and a small lot that wasn't on their checklist and their checklist states to contact me before doing any property not on their list. On top of that, not finishing their list because they had an appointment to go to thereby necessitating me having to clear 2 small lots that the machine is far better suited than the truck I was driving. But.... They did have time to do the extras at the end of their run.... Yeah it must be an accident lol


Ah... yeah... that would be reaching deep into the bullsh*t tank on that one... If anyone believes that they are an idiot.

You might want to see who those people have a contract with to handle their services and if they are all your guy... I would say you got him cornered there.

Hope you find a way to nail this guy!!!!


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## Randall Ave

This is my opinion. Legally its a civil matter. For theft you would have to have hard evidence of what he stole. Then there is different levels depending on the amounts. The whole thing stinks. But I do not think there is much you can do. And if you sued, does he have any assests? You fire him, and make sure everyone you no he could work for is advised of the piece of s##t he is. Thumbs Up


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## jonniesmooth

Philbilly2;2123017 said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I had this happen on a different scale. The story that I will tell here was a project that was in the mid five figure range. (which is a pretty good little project for my company size) Keeps a few of my guys working for a few weeks.
> 
> I had a employee that was on my payroll as an estimator bidding jobs for me.
> 
> I received a call from my union local business agent asking which one of my employees was working on a certain job. My company name and contractor licence was on the permit, but in all the times that he stopped at the job he was never able to be there when one of my employees was. I informed him that we bid the project, but we were not low bidder and did not get the job. He advised that I look into this as my name was on the permit.
> 
> So, I made a call to my estimator and asked him about this job if he knew anything about why our name is in the permit if we don't have the job. He said he knew nothing about it. So I dug a little further and called the village building and permits department and found that the person that filed for the permit was me... really??? I asked the village to fax the paperwork to my office as I was not there but would like to see it. When I returned to the office, no fax. Asked my estimator and he said he had not seen a fax all day. So I called village again and asked them if the could send it again as it did not seem to come threw. So they did, and I got it. Crazy thing... I write in all caps... all the time. This permit application was in upper and lower case, and it matched my estimator's writing style almost to a tee. So, I just kept this info to myself and called my business agent back and asked him the correct route to take on this to get him in the most amount of sh*t that I could. He said that if he could catch him working on the job, and get pictures he can do some damage. So I called my BA when my guy left my office that day and said that he might be headed there. Sure as the day was long, he was. BA caught him on the job, got pictures of him carrying tools along with a couple of other moonlight side jobbers all from my local.
> 
> Called the general on the project and asked them what the number was and who the contractor was that got that project. Found out it was the number that he turned in for me minus exactly $1000.00 to the cent. The general was very reluctant to give me the contractor that got the project's name as he was sort of in on the whole deal. Once I informed him that my name was on the permit, and I would be filing a lawsuit for the theft of my license... he back pedaled and said that it was my guy's side company that was doing the project for him but he had no idea that he stole my contractor's license number. My guy told him that he had his own contractors number.
> 
> So, the next day when he showed up in the morning, I had his personal items in a box outside of the door. (along with the copy of the fax from the village earlier in the day yesterday that I found in his desk drawer) I asked him for his truck keys, his office keys, and shop keys, along with his (my) cell phone. He looked at me like I was nuts. I informed him that he had limited time to leave my property and find a ride back to his house before I was contacting the Sheriff for criminal trespassing. Advised him that it is in his best interest to walk to the gas station and see if he can use their phone as this was a done deal. He could not understand why he was fired and I calmly explained to him that he was bidding projects on my time and getting paid my me for that time, then double breasting the projects for himself. He denied it up and down. I closed the office door and he stood outside the door for a few minutes, picked up his box and walked away.
> 
> Called the Village, informed them to pull my license off that job as the paperwork was false, and my license number was stolen to apply for permit. Not sure how that played out, but relay did not care to much as long as my name was not on the project.
> 
> But, the story gets better. He had the balls to file unemployment on me for "Lack of work" I protested it and informed them that he was FIRED for thief. Days later, received a call from the unemployment office asking for more info and payroll information. The guy from the unemployment office was having trouble with this whole ordeal as my former employee was still getting checks for unemployment from the last company that he was working for while he was receiving payroll checks from my company. So I gave my statement on a recorded line explaining the entire reason that he as fired and it had nothing to do with "Lack of work" and sent all of my payroll journals via e-mail to this guy. So they went after him for all the money that he was receiving from his previous employer's unemployment plus damages.
> 
> But... I got even better! My BA informed a few weeks later me that the job that he was doing was a prevailing wage project that required certified payroll reports. So now, he has the government to deal with... and they are a whole different ball of wax.
> 
> Sorry for the long winded post...
> 
> But, you need to nip this in the butt ASAP as it will only get worse and might cost you a TON of money is something goes wrong.


That happened with a local company here too. The estimator and one whole crew were in on the take. The estimator stretched out the time to complete the job, and then bid a house to fill the extra time. So the whole crew is getting paid for weeks by the boss for a job that is already done and getting paid for the other job too. I don't know the extent of the corruption as to who's name was on the scab job, but most likely the estimator was whole ass in crook (not half ass)


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## Aerospace Eng

Although I think it is theft, I'm not sure it is worth the time/money for a lawyer.

I like the idea of publicly showing them the door to make a point to other employees. Maybe do it at the beginning of the next storm (hopefully a big one) so they can't line up an alternative truck for those 8-9 properties. That might make it more likely you could get them for customers.


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## framer1901

There are times that Sharia Law would be most prudent. Had similar problems and you really get nowhere with LE or legal.


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## scottL

your kind of screwed. The cost of theft vs. the cost of legal actions.

Document his theft.
You fire the guy. Get him to sign an admittance letter of his action and tell him you will them not sue or purse a legal action.
You can pursue a lawyer but that will cost you probably more.
Your a company so if you have small claims that won't work.
You probably can't hold back their pay in lue of cost.

In the future you can create a policy and make it chargeable. 
I'm also sure if you force the issue your popo will have to arrest them if you have it all documented.


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## Sno4U

To answer your question, Yes I did a problem with something like this this year. It was relation of mine too:yow!: People you should be able to trust. Anyhoww, I found out he was driving my truck to his new job (temporary b/c we've had a slow winter around here) over an hr away. He'd drop the plow and drive it on his time to work no matter if it was full of salt or not. Its a pick up w/ a v-box in it. He was doing some other un authorized chasing with it too. What really pissed me is this last event when I could have used him running the truck he stopped communicating mid call in. He shut me off! So, after 2 days off trying to get my truck back I simply showed up unannounced and took my truck. plow was empty on fluid (would hardly lift) and has basically been abused. There are several places in the frame that are broken. 
He is obviously "done" I will take money out of his ck. for filling the truck back up full and may even take out rent for his driving it around. Other than that I will say no more cuz I don't want family strife at me. I just hope for sure we don't get a late spring storm. we still have a few wks where something could happen. Ill take my chances with that rather than risk the liability of him drivin around my truck and breaking the truck itself.


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## Randall Ave

Had to go to a guys apartment one time to get my truck during a storm. Could not get ahold of the guy. Found out he was in the grey bar hotel. After that, no one takes anything home.


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## edgeair

Yes, I stopped letting guys take stuff home a few years ago when I noticed my truck was doing stuff the family vehicle would normally do, and then it became the vehicle used to pick up materials at Home Depot for his other moonlighting job (in direct competition with my business). That guy had to be let go too. 

So I confronted him about a week ago now when he returned from his unannounced trip to Mexico (in the middle of snow season none the less). It didn't go real well. Almost had to call the cops for assault (fortunately it was done in a public coffee shop with cameras and I had a buddy sitting at another table a couple rows over that stepped in when things got a little physical when the guy realized he was caught and wanted to physically remove the signed employment agreement from my hands using his shoulder into my chest). I can hold my own with douchebags like this but I wanted to not leave any question as to whether I was clean in all of this so I let some things happen. 

At first he outright denied he did anything. Then I listed off the addresses to him that he did (2 of which are properties he owns). Deny. Then I pulled out my computer and showed him the history of first one day. Said he needed to use the washroom at his house (he drove the tractor 25 minutes each way out of the way when there was a washroom at the shop, 5 minutes away or a public washroom 1 minute away). I asked him why it would take 45 minutes to do so, but then just so happen to clear his driveway - denied doing his driveway - showed him the PTO on and off at his house about 3 minutes apart. Then it became - "whats the big deal?" "I worked all day for you, whats 45 minutes to do my driveway and use the washroom?" (45 minutes on a $120,000 tractor I guess is worth nothing right). He owns a $50k skid steer that he bills out at $100 an hour, but I guess the tractor time is worthless.... Then I showed him another day where he did 8 driveways off route. Deny. 

Anyways, so that is how things went. He only earned about $100 less than the value of the work he stole. I told him he was getting nothing, in fact he owed me about $100 that I would simply 'forgive' (as he had signed an agreement by this point stating that I could deduct for use of equipment outside of company contracts and charge back at market rate). I told him that he should just move on and learn a lesson from this. Of course now he is threatening me, says he 'knows people' and that 'I' will be the one that learns a lesson in this. Not too worried, other than some risk for him vandalizing equipment etc. His reputation in town is not a good one so I have learned, and he is trying to run a small service business while burning bridges along the way. 

So that is how it ended. Overall, so far I feel ok about it. Felt a little bit bad about having to do it, but only because I'd rather be doing other things.


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## Whiffyspark

Sno4U;2128550 said:


> To answer your question, Yes I did a problem with something like this this year. It was relation of mine too:yow!: People you should be able to trust. Anyhoww, I found out he was driving my truck to his new job (temporary b/c we've had a slow winter around here) over an hr away. He'd drop the plow and drive it on his time to work no matter if it was full of salt or not. Its a pick up w/ a v-box in it. He was doing some other un authorized chasing with it too. What really pissed me is this last event when I could have used him running the truck he stopped communicating mid call in. He shut me off! So, after 2 days off trying to get my truck back I simply showed up unannounced and took my truck. plow was empty on fluid (would hardly lift) and has basically been abused. There are several places in the frame that are broken.
> He is obviously "done" I will take money out of his ck. for filling the truck back up full and may even take out rent for his driving it around. Other than that I will say no more cuz I don't want family strife at me. I just hope for sure we don't get a late spring storm. we still have a few wks where something could happen. Ill take my chances with that rather than risk the liability of him drivin around my truck and breaking the truck itself.


Can't do that legally


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## Mark Oomkes

Whiffyspark;2128627 said:


> Can't do that legally


Sure you can, if 2 requirements are fulfilled.


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## Whiffyspark

Mark Oomkes;2128630 said:


> Sure you can, if 2 requirements are fulfilled.


Yeah employee has to sign a paper saying they will allow it. What employee is going to do that?


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## FredG

Who's he know? Sounds like some punk trying to personally gain at your expense. He's a blow hard, No self respecting wise guy would have nothing to do with that, In fact they would probably give him the riot act cause of his behavior. He wants to vandalize he can say hi to Tyrone when he makes the klink.


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## Randall Ave

Only thing you should have done is recorded it with your phone.


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## Mark Oomkes

Whiffyspark;2128635 said:


> Yeah employee has to sign a paper saying they will allow it. What employee is going to do that?


That's part of it.

Have them sign it pre-employment.


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## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes;2128689 said:


> That's part of it.
> 
> Have them sign it pre-employment.


Pre-employment is the key to this. Most don't read the paperwork they sign, if they do and refuse to sign it, typically ends up not a person that you want representing your organization.

That is in my pre-employement agreement. More or less reads the man with the gold makes the rules... in a bit more legal terms. Thumbs Up


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## SnoFarmer

Just becuse you have something signed, does not mean you can take their right
To be paid from them.

In other words, if there is a law that sayes you have to pay them for all hrs worked,
You have to abide by the law.

You can not make them pay for somthing they broke.
Unless they were breaking the law at the time it occurred.
Stole the equipment or we're under the influence for examples.

You could try to take them to court but your going to have a up hill battle.

employee hand books are just a bunch of policy's made up by an employer.
Most cover safety, theft, lunch time, over time, along with conduct.


How woulD you ever find a operator for your $100,000 plus, machine or even your cheep plow if they had to pay for it breaking?

Ps
The debt of labor, hours and wages division, doesn't give 2 hoots aboot your employee hand book.
( whatever that govt. entity is called today)


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## KYsnow

But you can reduce the rate of pay to minimum wage and only pay that keeping the difference to offset the lose.


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## Mark Oomkes

KYsnow;2129358 said:


> But you can reduce the rate of pay to minimum wage and only pay that keeping the difference to offset the lose.


Finally, someone got part 2.


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## edgeair

KYsnow;2129358 said:


> But you can reduce the rate of pay to minimum wage and only pay that keeping the difference to offset the lose.


Exactly what I did with new hires this winter, including this guy. Minimum wage plus bonus (if earned) to bring rate of pay up to what keeps them interested. If they are a no show etc, they don't get the bonus.


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes;2129361 said:


> Finally, someone got part 2.


Only if the employee intentionally did it, gross negligence or on drugs.

Many employers have real concerns about avoidable expenses resulting from employee damage to company property. Some employers have specific policies requiring employees to reimburse for the damages often in the form of payroll deductions or a deduction from the employee's final paycheck. However, a common question is whether or not such a workplace policy is appropriate.
It depends. On one hand, an employer should not deduct against an employee for a cash shortage, breakage, or equipment loss - which is considered a part of the "cost of doing business." On the other hand, if an employee caused damage to company property due to gross negligence, dishonest or willful acts (i.e. theft), or intentional misconduct to cause damage, then a deduction (or schedule of deductions) generally may be permissible…as long as the employer can clearly prove the employee was at fault, as well as (according to the federal Fair Labor Standards Act):
The employer already obtained the employee's signed and written authorization to deduct for such cases before a loss / damage actually occurs; and
The deduction does not bring the employee's hourly pay rate below the minimum wage rate.
If the employer cannot establish a sound position to appropriately deduct the cost for loss / damages to company property, three general alternatives exist:
Apply Disciplinary Action. If loss or damage stems from poor performance issues, the employer should subject the employee to disciplinary action including but not limited to employment termination, especially in cases of gross negligence or intentional actions to cause damage or harm.
Go to Small Claims. Employers can take the employee to small claims court or file a civil suit to hopefully be awarded the amount calculated for the loss or damage.
Absorb the Cost. After determining the overall dollar amounts and labor-intensive efforts, some employers may find the cost for the entire recovery process as a much more costly pursuit and simply chalk the event as an important learning experience.
https://apexpayroll.wordpress.com/2...e-employees-pay-for-damaged-company-property/


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer;2129416 said:


> Only if the employee intentionally did it, gross negligence or on drugs.
> 
> Many employers have real concerns about avoidable expenses resulting from employee damage to company property. Some employers have specific policies requiring employees to reimburse for the damages often in the form of payroll deductions or a deduction from the employee's final paycheck. However, a common question is whether or not such a workplace policy is appropriate.
> It depends. On one hand, an employer should not deduct against an employee for a cash shortage, breakage, or equipment loss - which is considered a part of the "cost of doing business." On the other hand, if an employee caused damage to company property due to gross negligence, dishonest or willful acts (i.e. theft), or intentional misconduct to cause damage, then a deduction (or schedule of deductions) generally may be permissible…as long as the employer can clearly prove the employee was at fault, as well as (according to the federal Fair Labor Standards Act):
> The employer already obtained the employee's signed and written authorization to deduct for such cases before a loss / damage actually occurs; and
> The deduction does not bring the employee's hourly pay rate below the minimum wage rate.
> If the employer cannot establish a sound position to appropriately deduct the cost for loss / damages to company property, three general alternatives exist:
> Apply Disciplinary Action. If loss or damage stems from poor performance issues, the employer should subject the employee to disciplinary action including but not limited to employment termination, especially in cases of gross negligence or intentional actions to cause damage or harm.
> Go to Small Claims. Employers can take the employee to small claims court or file a civil suit to hopefully be awarded the amount calculated for the loss or damage.
> Absorb the Cost. After determining the overall dollar amounts and labor-intensive efforts, some employers may find the cost for the entire recovery process as a much more costly pursuit and simply chalk the event as an important learning experience.
> https://apexpayroll.wordpress.com/2...e-employees-pay-for-damaged-company-property/


If you have their signed consent, you can deduct damages or for uniforms not returned as long as their pay does not go below minimum wage.


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## ServiceOnSite

A towing outfit i used to work for years ago brought charges for unlawful use of equipment, being the moment it left his house for anything other than our contracted work it was basically a stolen tow truck. I think it was reduced to bull **** fine in court but still in all it was at least something.


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## Ford.crazy

If you have all your ducks in a row and all the paperwork from the gps and everything else. If the police won't do anything, After you fire his sorry a**, Send him a bill, or send the places he was plowing a bill for the work that was performed.


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## MSsnowplowing

*So what happened? *
*Fired and charged with theft or just fired?*
*Inquiring minds what to know!*


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## edgeair

MSsnowplowing said:


> *So what happened? *
> *Fired and charged with theft or just fired?*
> *Inquiring minds what to know!*


Check the 3rd page, I posted what happened and how it went. No charges were filed by police, they didn't want to do anything.


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## MSsnowplowing

edgeair said:


> Check the 3rd page, I posted what happened and how it went. No charges were filed by police, they didn't want to do anything.


Boy I'm tired, I thought that was someone else's experience with a bad employee, got at 4am to go to DMV to register a truck, you get there early or else your waiting for 4-6 hours. 
Hopefully the dip**** learned his lesson but I doubt it, those type of people never do.


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## edgeair

MSsnowplowing said:


> Boy I'm tired, I thought that was someone else's experience with a bad employee, got at 4am to go to DMV to register a truck, you get there early or else your waiting for 4-6 hours.
> Hopefully the dip**** learned his lesson but I doubt it, those type of people never do.


No problem. I very much doubt he learned a lesson. Several stories have been brought forward of his shady dealings around town since then. Only reason he is still around is grandpa has been the financial backer for his business and doesn't care how much it takes to keep him floating. Must be nice.


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## FredG

edgeair said:


> No problem. I very much doubt he learned a lesson. Several stories have been brought forward of his shady dealings around town since then. Only reason he is still around is grandpa has been the financial backer for his business and doesn't care how much it takes to keep him floating. Must be nice.


Forget that bum, Even Grandpa or one of his siblings will catch on to his shady behavior. Cops will not bother with him, You hired him. We all get a piece of slime from time to time. Move on. Good Luck


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