# Issue with new plow ... ?



## Bagger

Been plowing my 1/4 mile driveway and parking areas for over 35 years with many different rigs/plows.

Got a new truck (F250) and new plow (Western 8'6") put on by the same folks that have done so for 7 different rigs and plows.

Only used it once in light snow with no problems, but did notice that when I got to the parking place and angled the plow left and right ... the radio went off and the dash lights went black for couple seconds. Truck did not stall, or hesitate. 

Thought it may be due to not driving the truck often and battery may be low. Drove truck for 30 miles, parked it ... started it today idled for 15 minutes, drove it for 10 miles and had the same thing happen today. Did it twice in succession, then did not do it again. 

Called the dealer/plow installer and he didn't know what the problem could be.

Anyone with a WAG as to why this could be happening?

Thanx.


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## dieselss

What year?...


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## seville009

Read thru this thread - is mainly GM rrlated, but Ford owners chime in at various posts (like on page )

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=161166&page=5


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## Bagger

*My truck is a 2015 F250 ...*

New 2015 Ford F250 Superduty Lariat with snow plow package. New Western 8'6" w/Unimount.

Interesting link. 
http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=161166&page=5

This is EXACTLY what I'm experiencing ... dash lights go out, radio goes out.

That said, I just finished 20 minutes of plowing 4" of snow (more coming). I wanted to see what the plow would do (or not do) while it was still light here in CT-land.

Didn't have any issues. Angled, up/down ... plowed / repeat many times. Everything worked fine.

But, I did have the heat on, radio on, the lights on and the flashers on. I don't think I had any of these on either time I had "issues" with the system. Must be the extra load of these that made the difference.

Odd ...


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## JAJA

Should have bought a chevy...all kidding aside how many batteries...put a heavier gauage wire off the alternator could be from voltage loss


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## Bagger

JAJA;2106207 said:


> Should have bought a chevy...all kidding aside how many batteries...put a heavier gauage wire off the alternator could be from voltage loss


Can't quite figure out your post. But, if it were this simple, don't you think the manufacturers of the plows and trucks would have figured this out?

I contacted my plow dealer yesterday to give them the SP-387 number. He's going to look into it.

If there are no issues with Ford HD / GM HD from 2012-2013 ... then there have been changes to the electrical systems of these trucks. Shouldn't the makers of these trucks see this difference and adapt modifications?


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## dieselss

JAJA;2106207 said:


> Should have bought a chevy...all kidding aside how many batteries...put a heavier gauage wire off the alternator could be from voltage loss


You think it's just that huh?


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## chevyhauler

Bagger;2101732 said:


> New 2015 Ford F250 Superduty Lariat with snow plow package. New Western 8'6" w/Unimount.
> 
> Interesting link.
> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=161166&page=5
> 
> This is EXACTLY what I'm experiencing ... dash lights go out, radio goes out.
> 
> That said, I just finished 20 minutes of plowing 4" of snow (more coming). I wanted to see what the plow would do (or not do) while it was still light here in CT-land.
> 
> Didn't have any issues. Angled, up/down ... plowed / repeat many times. Everything worked fine.
> 
> But, I did have the heat on, radio on, the lights on and the flashers on. I don't think I had any of these on either time I had "issues" with the system. Must be the extra load of these that made the difference.
> 
> Odd ...


Reading this description reminds me of what GM just got done kinda sorting out. The problem was with their newer gas trucks with the snow plow prep package. One of the things that the Snow plow prep package does is put on a stronger alternator. What was happening was that a bunch of stuff would die as soon as you let off the plow control button. The cause was that the stronger alternator was putting out more juice (like it should) to control the plow then...for a millisecond...when u let off...the increased power would back-feed into the truck and cause various electric device to go dead (protecting themselves from an over power situation). This was not noticed with the no snow plow package trucks (smaller alternator) or with the dual alternator diesels (load sharing by two alternators means less spike to feed the plow).
GM's short term fix was to make a harness which momentarily kills the output from the alternator when you let go of the button. Bit of a hack solution in my opinion...but they didn't ask me.
The other solution (and this is what made me think of all this when reading your post) is to keep a bunch of your electrical accessories running. The spike is consumed by the other accessories so it cant back feed. So sit your plow down first....then turn all your other sh!t off.


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## Bagger

chevyhauler;2106875 said:


> Reading this description reminds me of what GM just got done kinda sorting out. The problem was with their newer gas trucks with the snow plow prep package. One of the things that the Snow plow prep package does is put on a stronger alternator. What was happening was that a bunch of stuff would die as soon as you let off the plow control button. The cause was that the stronger alternator was putting out more juice (like it should) to control the plow then...for a millisecond...when u let off...the increased power would back-feed into the truck and cause various electric device to go dead (protecting themselves from an over power situation). This was not noticed with the no snow plow package trucks (smaller alternator) or with the dual alternator diesels (load sharing by two alternators means less spike to feed the plow).
> GM's short term fix was to make a harness which momentarily kills the output from the alternator when you let go of the button. Bit of a hack solution in my opinion...but they didn't ask me.
> The other solution (and this is what made me think of all this when reading your post) is to keep a bunch of your electrical accessories running. The spike is consumed by the other accessories so it cant back feed. So sit your plow down first....then turn all your other sh!t off.


Your explanation makes sense.

But, why not just change out the alternator for a smaller one instead of rigging it with the new harness?


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## chevyhauler

Bagger;2106884 said:


> Your explanation makes sense.
> 
> But, why not just change out the alternator for a smaller one instead of rigging it with the new harness?


Its like doctors....they always have to prescribe _something_
Honestly, putting the smaller alternator back on would negate any benefits from the power of the larger one (plow/sander/lights/etc) AND then GM customers would be banging the door down to get their money back for the larger alternators that they paid for (as part of the plow prep package). So not only would GM be fixing stuff under warranty (smaller alt) but they would be writing checks too.


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## jasonv

The electronics in the truck require a certain minimum voltage in order to operate. When the voltage drops below that threshold, the self preservation circuit will disconnect it.

The reason is because the plow pump motor draws a LOT of current. More than the alternator can provide (regardless of how big of an alternator you have).

The correct way to eliminate this problem, is to install a second battery. Use a deep cycle battery to dedicate to the snow plow pump, and install an isolator between the two batteries. The result of this will be that the truck's electrical systems will NOT be impacted when the plow pump draws down the voltage. Deep cycle battery is also a lot more suitable for the kind of loads that will be placed on it by the plow pump, and to top it off, you eliminate the risk of running your main/only battery dead by overuse of the plow pump.


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## Bagger

jasonv;2118958 said:


> The correct way to eliminate this problem, is to install a second battery. Use a deep cycle battery to dedicate to the snow plow pump, and install an isolator between the two batteries. The result of this will be that the truck's electrical systems will NOT be impacted when the plow pump draws down the voltage. Deep cycle battery is also a lot more suitable for the kind of loads that will be placed on it by the plow pump, and to top it off, you eliminate the risk of running your main/only battery dead by overuse of the plow pump.


I had someone in my office the other day that said this is what to do as well. That said, seems like a bit pricey ... since I can't do this myself. I'd have to have a shop do it and wonder if they (indeed) know what they are doing to my new truck/plow rig. ??


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## 1olddogtwo

jasonv;2118958 said:


> The electronics in the truck require a certain minimum voltage in order to operate. When the voltage drops below that threshold, the self preservation circuit will disconnect it.
> 
> The reason is because the plow pump motor draws a LOT of current. More than the alternator can provide (regardless of how big of an alternator you have).
> 
> The correct way to eliminate this problem, is to install a second battery. Use a deep cycle battery to dedicate to the snow plow pump, and install an isolator between the two batteries. The result of this will be that the truck's electrical systems will NOT be impacted when the plow pump draws down the voltage. Deep cycle battery is also a lot more suitable for the kind of loads that will be placed on it by the plow pump, and to top it off, you eliminate the risk of running your main/only battery dead by overuse of the plow pump.


So you have 1st hand knowledge of this?

You must because if you didn't, you wouldnt be spewing crap if you didn't.

Op, its cause by a spike or to much voltage, just complete opposite of what Jason has said. This problem has be going on since 2011. It doesn't matter if it's gas or diesel, single battery or dual battery. Trucks with snow plow package the have the higher alternator or trucks with twin alternators seem to be prone to have these issues.


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## chevyhauler

Jason,
You have most of it right, but it is actually a voltage spike that messes the electronics up. The high output single alternators push out more voltage to feed the plow motor while its running, you let go of the button and for a split second, that higher voltage back-feeds into the truck's electronics. They do have a protection feature in them, but in this case, its the excessive voltage that shuts them down.

Olddog
Most of what you said is correct.
From what I have heard (I spend a lot of time with the GM dealership mech who helped test this for GM before being released to the public) the twin alternator diesels are not as prone to this happening as the single (high output) alternator gas jobs. I have a 2011 (dual alternator) diesel. Believe me....that was the first question that I asked. The answer that I got was that the dual alternators (and batteries for that matter) share the load more such that there is not as much of a voltage spike. GM wired a second plug into their harness (that they designed to fix this issue) so I imagine that it is there in the event that the problems develop with dual alternator diesels also.
And before you ask, no I don't have first hand knowledge, but a very close second hand. This mechanic that I refer to is VERY good. I am in there often. Just last week He just modified the wiring from my ECU on my '02 to better control the aftermarket dual alternators. Thus saving me $2K (not replacing the ECU that was...and still is...bad).


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## Mark Oomkes

jasonv;2118958 said:


> The electronics in the truck require a certain minimum voltage in order to operate. When the voltage drops below that threshold, the self preservation circuit will disconnect it.
> 
> The reason is because the plow pump motor draws a LOT of current. More than the alternator can provide (regardless of how big of an alternator you have).
> 
> The correct way to eliminate this problem, is to install a second battery. Use a deep cycle battery to dedicate to the snow plow pump, and install an isolator between the two batteries. The result of this will be that the truck's electrical systems will NOT be impacted when the plow pump draws down the voltage. Deep cycle battery is also a lot more suitable for the kind of loads that will be placed on it by the plow pump, and to top it off, you eliminate the risk of running your main/only battery dead by overuse of the plow pump.


I find it humorous that you show up aboot every 2-3 months, miss 98% of what has been posted during that time, then act like an expert, despite numerous threads or posts already explaining the existing problems.


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## 1olddogtwo

I can't speak on GM, Ford guy here. I usually replace my truck every year, on my 4th 6.7

2011 was single Alt
2012 was duals
2013 was single
Currently 2014 with duals.

They all have done it, I've never worried about it. It's the BCM that blinks out. 

I am more upset that my satellite radio blinks out on one particular section of highway every day I go through it, that pisses me off and I can't figure out why.


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## Bagger

*Don't know why ....*

But, I've had a Ford F150 (2009) and a Ram 1500 (2010) all with mounted Western Ultramount plows. All gas trucks. I had no issues with either truck.

I suppose that as EPA and other regulatory agencies continue to impose regulations on the industry, that changes to the ECU may have changed the way the new truck handles the plow rigs. I'm certainly no expert, just a WAFG.

Neither of the "lighter" trucks had a snow plow prep like my new truck ... but, heck ... the new truck IS a heavy duty truck set up for plowing. I find this odd that such a new truck can't handle the additional power of the plow rig as well as the light weight trucks from before.

Did Ford and GM (and the plow guys) just screw this up? How many thousands of these trucks have this problem without a recall .... and, a FIX !?

Krikey !


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## chevyhauler

Bagger;2119154 said:


> But, I've had a Ford F150 (2009) and a Ram 1500 (2010) all with mounted Western Ultramount plows. All gas trucks. I had no issues with either truck.
> 
> I suppose that as EPA and other regulatory agencies continue to impose regulations on the industry, that changes to the ECU may have changed the way the new truck handles the plow rigs. I'm certainly no expert, just a WAFG.
> 
> Neither of the "lighter" trucks had a snow plow prep like my new truck ... but, heck ... the new truck IS a heavy duty truck set up for plowing. I find this odd that such a new truck can't handle the additional power of the plow rig as well as the light weight trucks from before.
> 
> Did Ford and GM (and the plow guys) just screw this up? How many thousands of these trucks have this problem without a recall .... and, a FIX !?
> 
> Krikey !


Hey Bagger,
The only thing that I can think of is alternator size. Your lighter duty (he said doody) trucks may have had smaller alternators (less output = less spike = less back feed = no problem). If your new truck has a higher amp alternator, such as the GM's with the plow prep package (NON diesel as discussed earlier), then that would explain why u r seeing it now but not previously. 
Now with the GM's (sorry...I know more about the GM's), they did not start offering a plow prep package until 2011. Thus, its kinda a newer problem for them.


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## Bagger

chevyhauler;2119173 said:


> Hey Bagger,
> The only thing that I can think of is alternator size. Your lighter duty (he said doody) trucks may have had smaller alternators (less output = less spike = less back feed = no problem). If your new truck has a higher amp alternator, such as the GM's with the plow prep package (NON diesel as discussed earlier), then that would explain why u r seeing it now but not previously.
> Now with the GM's (sorry...I know more about the GM's), they did not start offering a plow prep package until 2011. Thus, its kinda a newer problem for them.


I appreciate your input here.

You'd think that the truck manufacturers would have understood this before offering the "snow plow package" ... which does cost some what more dough .. the plow rig motors do draw a crap load of power. I know this from plowing my driveway at the hacienda for nearly 40 years. Pull the plow UP and the lights dim. No matter what truck or plow.

But, 40 years later ... with a snow plow package equipped truck/all modern technology and such ... the dang thing causes feed back and makes it work less well. Yes, I can plow and all, but running everything electrical to do so is a PITA !

And, there seems no fix in sight. Nearly $60K in truck and plow rig and this is the result. How bloody stupid.


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## Mark Oomkes

Bagger;2119185 said:


> I appreciate your input here.
> 
> You'd think that the truck manufacturers would have understood this before offering the "snow plow package" ... which does cost some what more dough .. the plow rig motors do draw a crap load of power. I know this from plowing my driveway at the hacienda for nearly 40 years. Pull the plow UP and the lights dim. No matter what truck or plow.
> 
> But, 40 years later ... with a snow plow package equipped truck/all modern technology and such ... the dang thing causes feed back and makes it work less well. Yes, I can plow and all, but running everything electrical to do so is a PITA !
> 
> And, there seems no fix in sight. Nearly $60K in truck and plow rig and this is the result. How bloody stupid.


These are the same idiots forcing crap like traction control down our throats. Because that's so very necessary.


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## jasonv

1olddogtwo;2119085 said:


> So you have 1st hand knowledge of this?
> 
> You must because if you didn't, you wouldnt be spewing crap if you didn't.
> 
> Op, its cause by a spike or to much voltage, just complete opposite of what Jason has said. This problem has be going on since 2011. It doesn't matter if it's gas or diesel, single battery or dual battery. Trucks with snow plow package the have the higher alternator or trucks with twin alternators seem to be prone to have these issues.


Do you know how a voltage regulator works?


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## Mike_PS

ok guys, let's not take shots at one another or post personal attacks, etc...everyone can make a point, even have a disagreement/argument, without having to be derogatory or attack anyone personally

thanks :waving:


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## 1olddogtwo

jasonv;2119437 said:


> Do you know how a voltage regulator works?


Yes, and that has nothing to do with the problem.

It is recommended to run all accessories to alleviate the issue

Thank for ur educational experiences with these problems


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## 1olddogtwo

Michael J. Donovan;2119440 said:


> ok guys, let's not take shots at one another or post personal attacks, etc...everyone can make a point, even have a disagreement/argument, without having to be derogatory or attack anyone personally
> 
> thanks :waving:


MJD, I'm just talking facts on the matter, Mr V has never experiences nor should be involved


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## Mike_PS

1olddogtwo;2119444 said:


> MJD, I'm just talking facts on the matter, Mr V has never experiences nor should be involved


that's fine...I made a general statement as a reminder to all Thumbs Up


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## jasonv

1olddogtwo;2119444 said:


> MJD, I'm just talking facts on the matter, Mr V has never experiences nor should be involved


Where do you get by making claims about what experience **I** have?


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## Mark Oomkes

jasonv;2119488 said:


> Where do you get by making claims about what experience **I** have?


jason, the copious number of threads\posts that are present here on PS repeating what manufacturers and actual users have recommended, i.e. running as many accessories as possible while plowing, and that has solved the issue in the short term shows that you have no experience or knowledge of the actual problem, which is a spike that causes the electronics to shut down to protect them vs a drop that causes them to shut down.

Basically, there IS a temporary solution. It's been proven by actual users. It is not from someone who claims to be an electrical engineer who is flat out wrong about the real problem.

Like it or not, you're wrong. Admit it and move on, it will make you a better person.


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## jasonv

1olddogtwo;2119442 said:


> Yes, and that has nothing to do with the problem.
> 
> It is recommended to run all accessories to alleviate the issue
> 
> Thank for ur educational experiences with these problems


Oh no? Because how a voltage regulator works is at the HEART of the matter.
The voltage regulator is that thing that sits between the alternator and the vehicle's power system. If you guys are claiming that there is a voltage spike, then there is a VERY serious flaw in that voltage regulator circuit, especially since there is a great big battery that will eat up fairly significant surges (it acts as a decoupling capacitor).

In any event, if you want to persist in your claims of it being a voltage spike (which is opposite to what EVERY other vehicle will exhibit under similar circumstances), then I suggest that you scope it and post the output.

If your claim proves reasonable, I would be very happy to help you design a circuit to filter it out. Of course, I will need to know the characteristics of this surge before we can commence, which again requires that you scope it.


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## Mark Oomkes

jasonv;2119499 said:


> Oh no? Because how a voltage regulator works is at the HEART of the matter.
> The voltage regulator is that thing that sits between the alternator and the vehicle's power system. If you guys are claiming that there is a voltage spike, then there is a VERY serious flaw in that voltage regulator circuit, especially since there is a great big battery that will eat up fairly significant surges (it acts as a decoupling capacitor).
> 
> In any event, if you want to persist in your claims of it being a voltage spike (which is opposite to what EVERY other vehicle will exhibit under similar circumstances), then I suggest that you scope it and post the output.
> 
> If your claim proves reasonable, I would be very happy to help you design a circuit to filter it out. Of course, I will need to know the characteristics of this surge before we can commence, which again requires that you scope it.


How aboot you scope it and prove you're right?


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## SnoFarmer

jasonv;2119499 said:


> Oh no? Because how a voltage regulator works is at the HEART of the matter.
> The voltage regulator is that thing that sits between the alternator and the vehicle's power system. If you guys are claiming that there is a voltage spike, then there is a VERY serious flaw in that voltage regulator circuit, especially since there is a great big battery that will eat up fairly significant surges (it acts as a decoupling capacitor).
> 
> In any event, if you want to persist in your claims of it being a voltage spike (which is opposite to what EVERY other vehicle will exhibit under similar circumstances), then I suggest that you scope it and post the output.
> 
> If your claim proves reasonable, I would be very happy to help you design a circuit to filter it out. Of course, I will need to know the characteristics of this surge before we can commence, which again requires that you scope it.


http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=161166

oh yea, he wont see this.:laughing::laughing:


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## 1olddogtwo

jasonv;2119499 said:


> Oh no? Because how a voltage regulator works is at the HEART of the matter.
> The voltage regulator is that thing that sits between the alternator and the vehicle's power system. If you guys are claiming that there is a voltage spike, then there is a VERY serious flaw in that voltage regulator circuit, especially since there is a great big battery that will eat up fairly significant surges (it acts as a decoupling capacitor).
> 
> In any event, if you want to persist in your claims of it being a voltage spike (which is opposite to what EVERY other vehicle will exhibit under similar circumstances), then I suggest that you scope it and post the output.
> 
> If your claim proves reasonable, I would be very happy to help you design a circuit to filter it out. Of course, I will need to know the characteristics of this surge before we can commence, which again requires that you scope it.


1st, you do not own a 2011 or newer GM or Ford, do you.

You probably won't answer that because you have not answered my other questions

The voltage regulator is attached to the alternator, in my case since I have twins alternators I have two (2) regulators. Both are controlled by the PCM.

When the plow is being used, its calling for power and when the pump dead heads the power that already has been sent has no where to go. The BCM which controls most of the truck accessories flashes out at 14.8 (I'm told its 14.8) as a safe guard.

Do understand stand now the problem is after the regulator?


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## chevyhauler

jasonv;2119499 said:


> Oh no? Because how a voltage regulator works is at the HEART of the matter.
> The voltage regulator is that thing that sits between the alternator and the vehicle's power system. If you guys are claiming that there is a voltage spike, then there is a VERY serious flaw in that voltage regulator circuit, especially since there is a great big battery that will eat up fairly significant surges (it acts as a decoupling capacitor).
> 
> In any event, if you want to persist in your claims of it being a voltage spike (which is opposite to what EVERY other vehicle will exhibit under similar circumstances), then I suggest that you scope it and post the output.
> 
> If your claim proves reasonable, I would be very happy to help you design a circuit to filter it out. Of course, I will need to know the characteristics of this surge before we can commence, which again requires that you scope it.


The voltage regulator is doing its job perfectly. When asked for more power, it gets provided. When the request stops...it stops. The problem is the few milliseconds in between where there is no more demand (plow off) but still residual juice. If u tighten the restrictions on the regulator, then the plow would never be able to get the power it needs. That "door" needs to be able to go wide open and then almost shut in an instant. 
Electricity is like water so I often use examples referring to water:
Our plowing is like trying to put out a big old house fire. Having a high power alternator (and its regulator) would be like using a nice 3" wide firehose to put it out. All the power/water that you need. Now lets say that the fire is out....so u turn off the nozzle. As the nozzle shuts off, there will still be water (in between the nozzle and where u were aiming) that will be mid-air. There is nothing that u can do about it. That mid air water is EXACTLY the power problem that these trucks have. There is increased power for a millisecond after the plow turns off. Using a more restrictive regulator would be like screwing a garden hose nozzle on the big old 3" fire hose. It will be the restrictive point and you will never get the water/power that u need. Aaaaaand your house burns down.
Also, your battery does not act like a resistor. Try it. Start your truck/car...then disconnect your battery. Car/truck still runs...off the alternator. It is actually a poor mans test of your alternator. (start car and disconnect battery. Turn on a bunch of electrical sh!t. If the car runs, alt good...car dies, alt bad) I literally JUST did this to a customer's car on Saturday. While the battery is part of the system, the power does not go from alternator through the battery, then to the car. More like spokes on a wheel than points on a line. The excess juice from the alt will go to the battery, but it also feeds to the truck at the same time. You are right in that the battery can take it momentarily, but the truck cannot.
Hope that this helps.


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## 1olddogtwo

chevyhauler;2119585 said:


> The voltage regulator is doing its job perfectly. When asked for more power, it gets provided. When the request stops...it stops. The problem is the few milliseconds in between where there is no more demand (plow off) but still residual juice. If u tighten the restrictions on the regulator, then the plow would never be able to get the power it needs. That "door" needs to be able to go wide open and then almost shut in an instant.
> Electricity is like water so I often use examples referring to water:
> Our plowing is like trying to put out a big old house fire. Having a high power alternator (and its regulator) would be like using a nice 3" wide firehose to put it out. All the power/water that you need. Now lets say that the fire is out....so u turn off the nozzle. As the nozzle shuts off, there will still be water (in between the nozzle and where u were aiming) that will be mid-air. There is nothing that u can do about it. That mid air water is EXACTLY the power problem that these trucks have. There is increased power for a millisecond after the plow turns off. Using a more restrictive regulator would be like screwing a garden hose nozzle on the big old 3" fire hose. It will be the restrictive point and you will never get the water/power that u need. Aaaaaand your house burns down.
> Also, your battery does not act like a resistor. Try it. Start your truck/car...then disconnect your battery. Car/truck still runs...off the alternator. It is actually a poor mans test of your alternator. (start car and disconnect battery. Turn on a bunch of electrical sh!t. If the car runs, alt good...car dies, alt bad) I literally JUST did this to a customer's car on Saturday. While the battery is part of the system, the power does not go from alternator through the battery, then to the car. More like spokes on a wheel than points on a line. The excess juice from the alt will go to the battery, but it also feeds to the truck at the same time. You are right in that the battery can take it momentarily, but the truck cannot.
> Hope that this helps.


Very well put.


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## Mark Oomkes

chevyhauler;2119585 said:


> The voltage regulator is doing its job perfectly. When asked for more power, it gets provided. When the request stops...it stops. The problem is the few milliseconds in between where there is no more demand (plow off) but still residual juice. If u tighten the restrictions on the regulator, then the plow would never be able to get the power it needs. That "door" needs to be able to go wide open and then almost shut in an instant.
> Electricity is like water so I often use examples referring to water:
> Our plowing is like trying to put out a big old house fire. Having a high power alternator (and its regulator) would be like using a nice 3" wide firehose to put it out. All the power/water that you need. Now lets say that the fire is out....so u turn off the nozzle. As the nozzle shuts off, there will still be water (in between the nozzle and where u were aiming) that will be mid-air. There is nothing that u can do about it. That mid air water is EXACTLY the power problem that these trucks have. There is increased power for a millisecond after the plow turns off. Using a more restrictive regulator would be like screwing a garden hose nozzle on the big old 3" fire hose. It will be the restrictive point and you will never get the water/power that u need. Aaaaaand your house burns down.
> Also, your battery does not act like a resistor. Try it. Start your truck/car...then disconnect your battery. Car/truck still runs...off the alternator. It is actually a poor mans test of your alternator. (start car and disconnect battery. Turn on a bunch of electrical sh!t. If the car runs, alt good...car dies, alt bad) I literally JUST did this to a customer's car on Saturday. While the battery is part of the system, the power does not go from alternator through the battery, then to the car. More like spokes on a wheel than points on a line. The excess juice from the alt will go to the battery, but it also feeds to the truck at the same time. You are right in that the battery can take it momentarily, but the truck cannot.
> Hope that this helps.


Do you have a degree in electrical engineering?


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## SnoFarmer

I have found this to be true first hand and as a equipment operator and a supervisor of a maint Dept.
And from my booklern'en while in Vo/Tech school for automotive learn'en.
Just use your test equipment....

...........


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## chevyhauler

Mark Oomkes;2119594 said:


> Do you have a degree in electrical engineering?


LOL!!!! No sir.
But I have rewired a few vehicles. Impala has a 200amp alt with the battery in the truck (I like traction). In order to carry the juice and offer less resistance from trunk (kill switch) to the positive block (which runs the car BTW) I rebuilt it all with 1o welding cable. Also rebuilt the harnesses on two trucks. 1o welding cable of course!!!!
I find that its better to listen than talk. (thus my having almost no total posts). There is a reason why we have two eyes....and two ears...but only one mouth. 
I did offer the suggestion of a resistor to GM but the problem is that the output from the alt goes to the truck AND the plow at the same time. It would have taken a ton of rewiring to separate those two outputs, then add a resistor to the truck side. Their work around is a patch that works, and I would not be surprised if it is wired differently in the future since GM worked hard on this patch. 
Oh yea......I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

Thanks Olddog.


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## Bagger

I read all of this >>> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=161166

Interesting read. Most seems to relate to Chevy/GMC trucks, but would think .. and I could be wrong .. that this same harness would be the same for Fords??

If Ford/GMC and the other parties are working on this ... wonder why none of the plow dealers, or truck dealership know about this. Heck this has been going on for over a year!

Any Ford guys out there getting information from ANYWHERE ??


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## chevyhauler

SnoFarmer;2119605 said:


> ...........


ok. 
If I am only testing then its never unhooked for more than a minute or two.

As a thought also, if the battery is not acting as a resistor (hooked up in between the alternator and the car's power system) spikes would not be stopped by it. They could pass by it. Your quote says that hundreds of volts could pass into the car. IF they can get past a voltage regulator in the alternator, then they would anyways. Thoughts?
NOT being argumentative...Just for discussion purposes. Non of us (especially me) are too old to not learn anything. If you think that u can't learn anything, then I probably cant learn anything from you! LOL

Since your tag line says to provide evidence:
http://www.ehow.com/how_7405247_test-alternator-disconnecting-battery.html
That was the very first link that I saw.
There are just as many which say disconnect as there are which say don't disconnect.


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## chevyhauler

Bagger;2119620 said:


> I read all of this >>> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=161166
> 
> Interesting read. Most seems to relate to Chevy/GMC trucks, but would think .. and I could be wrong .. that this same harness would be the same for Fords??
> 
> If Ford/GMC and the other parties are working on this ... wonder why none of the plow dealers, or truck dealership know about this. Heck this has been going on for over a year!
> 
> Any Ford guys out there getting information from ANYWHERE ??


About the only thing that I can answer is why plow dealerships don't know about it. The harness was developed a month or so ago. I am sure that there are GM dealerships which don't know about it, much less end the middle man plow dealers. I was in my dealership when my mech was testing it on a vehicle for GM, before it was released. He had a prototype with no PN yet.
Can't tell u much about the Ford stuff bud. Been 10 years since my F350.


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## SnoFarmer

chevyhauler;2119621 said:


> ok.
> If I am only testing then its never unhooked for more than a minute or two.
> 
> As a thought also, if the battery is not acting as a resistor (hooked up in between the alternator and the car's power system) spikes would not be stopped by it. They could pass by it. Your quote says that hundreds of volts could pass into the car. IF they can get past a voltage regulator in the alternator, then they would anyways. Thoughts?
> NOT being argumentative...Just for discussion purposes. Non of us (especially me) are too old to not learn anything. If you think that u can't learn anything, then I probably cant learn anything from you! LOL
> 
> Since your tag line says to provide evidence:
> http://www.ehow.com/how_7405247_test-alternator-disconnecting-battery.html
> 
> That was the very first link that I saw.
> There are just as many which say disconnect as there are which say don't disconnect.


That is why I posted that as reference.
I agree, some syestems don't seem to be affected as much when you disconect the batt, while it can cause trouble in others ramdomely or instantly.

But, just for "discussion purposes" 
The rpm's would need to increase for there to have that much excess voltage Also there are a lot of diffrent set ups..

How do we know the voltage regulator is bad before you disconnect
It causing the alt to see a low charge, then put out its max
Voltage?

A batt used a a resister, it can buffer types of RF noise.
A bat can flow well over its rating befor it boils, shorts or starts on fire.
Even enough to melt 01ga wire.

Hey, I'm listening, we all can learn fromeach other.
And we shouldn't just shrug our shoulders if we do disagree.
This is how we learn.:waving:


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## SnoFarmer

In not say'en the issue your having with your truck is not from a spike
In voltage.


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## shotgunwillie

SnoFarmer;2119530 said:


> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=161166
> 
> oh yea, he wont see this.:laughing::laughing:


SnoFarmer has it right. This topic at least for HD GM trucks is covered in another thread. The problem began in 2014 when they went to a 220 amp alt. from about a 150 amp alt. in the HD plow prep trucks. Older trucks when the plow was worked hard would see a voltage drop. You would either put it in park and raise the engine rpms for a minute or drive down the road a little bit and your volt meter would raise above 14 volts. GM fixed the problem too good and it only took them about a year to come up with the cable fix.


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## Bagger

*Glad this winter was less than normal ...*

but, that said .... I find it very disconcerting (and, stupid) that a major manufacturer, like GM .. and, in my case Ford ... makes a HD truck with a "snow plow package" built in and it does not work properly. And, they take more than a year to figure it out ... if indeed they have.

And, in Ford's case ... nada !

And, this fix looks more like some sort of after thought than a fix. Personally, I'm pissed that I have a truck north of 50K that won't plow properly without running all the electrical stuff on board. And, apparently ... very few truck dealers, or plow dealers know about this problem. Or, don't read the SBs.

I've plowed with Western plows on at least 8 trucks (from Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Dodge) over 35 years without any problem ... until now. I guess progress is not necessarily progress.

I'll give the truck another year. Then, I'm outa this truck unless a fix is done properly.


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## GetMore

I am going to guess that the OEMs might have never actually tested the trucks with plows, and therefore never found the issue. After all, people have been installing plows on the trucks for almost 100 years. Having enough electricity used to be the problem, so they fixed that issue. The diesel trucks have had dual alternators available for years, without any issues, so it would seem safe to just install a larger alternator without in-depth testing.

As for the problem not being fixed yet: Believe it or not, there have not been that many instances of it happening. Not when you compare them to the number of trucks sold. Add in the fact that it does not happen all the time, and it makes it harder to prove you have a problem, never mind testing for it.
Also, many of the people that have plows on the trucks are using other electrical items, such as additional lighting, or a sander, or have the heat blasting, or heated seats, just to name a few. Using those items helps prevent the problem.

Also, running the plow with the engine speed low helps prevent the issue, since the plow cannot produce full power at low rpm.


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## GetMore

Now, a question for the vehicle electrical experts: I know the computer is part of the control for the charging circuit. Is there actually a voltage regulator in the alternator, or has the PCM taken over that job?

I do know that in an effort to reduce fuel consumption they now switch the alternator off when the voltage is high enough. That could also be part of the problem: If the PCM reads the voltage in a place where it cannot sense it quickly enough it may be just far enough behind in responding to allow the overshoot.
I have not looked at the wiring diagram for the GM fix, but I suspect it is either actually sensing voltage at the pump, or it is "manually" engaging the windings in the alternator when the pump runs, and allowing the system to run normally the rest of the time. All I know for sure is that the repair harness goes in between the alternator and the original alternator connector, there is a relay, and there is a hot and a ground wire to be wired to the pump solenoid.
That's why I believe the PCM controls the system as it normally would, until the pump motor runs. What happens at that time is the magic fix.


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## chevyhauler

GetMore;2130461 said:


> Now, a question for the vehicle electrical experts: I know the computer is part of the control for the charging circuit. Is there actually a voltage regulator in the alternator, or has the PCM taken over that job?


Hey GetMore
I am NOT an expert on truck wiring.
I have rewired a few electrical systems before.
I also had a few discussions with the mech at the previously mentioned dealership when the mech was doing preliminary testing/development of this harness before they were released to the public. I suggested an inline capacitor to limit the power going to the truck but allowing the massive juice to go to the plow. I told him that I assumed that there was still a regulator in the alternator. He agreed on regulator location and said that would be a PITA because it would require disassembly and rewiring of the alternator itself, verses an add on harness.
just my .02
others may have better quality opinions
As a follow up, now we can say that we bought a car from that dealer.
Just got my wife a new Acadia from them yesterday. Smoothest car purchase ever...from any dealership...and we have bought cars from at least 8 different dealers. Good luck sir!


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## NLLMinnesota

New member here, first comment. New western wide-out installed on new 2016 GMC 3500hd snow plow prep yesterday. Went right back to the western shop when this occurred just as I brought it home. They are sending me to my GM dealer. Few things: 1) can someone direct me to additional threads on this issue (I can't seem to find anywhere). 2) any word of these issues happening on the 2016 model year? As mine is. 3) are they still "fixing" the issue with the added harness? Thanks in advance for any help guys. I'm waiting on service dept reply to my inquiry on the issue.


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## chevyhauler

Hey NLL.
Sorry to hear that your new truck is already giving u fits.
I think that this is it (such as it is) for threads on this....and half was taken up with a technical "discussion". Yea...that's what we'll call it. LOL
Your dealer should be able to find the write up about the harness. It was quite the issue with GM researching it and finding a solution. I am sure that there would b a TSB. IF your dealer cannot, LMK and I will go through my dealer (who did the original testing for GM) and I will get you the TSB and/or part #'s. I would kinda doubt that the wiring would already be fixed on 2016's. WAY to long of a design and supply chain to change that quickly. The good news for you is that I hear that the work around works well. We just need to get that installed for you quickly.


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## NLLMinnesota

Chevhauler- thank you! I was able to dig up some more info and did find the Bulletin. The GM Bulletin reference is PIT#5287 and I found a GM Upfitter Bulletin #124F. I can't seem to upload the files here, but it explains exactly what the issue is. The collective information here helped a ton. I went to my local GMC service department.. The manager I dealt with was unfamiliar with the issue, but once I showed him the bulletin he gladly got me a service appointment to install the additional wire harness. I did read that GM supposedly was shipping these harnesses in the glovebox with SPP package trucks, although my 2016 model (manufac in March) did not. I believe this info is in the upfitter bulletin.

https://www.gmupfitter.com/files/media/photo/745/UI Bulletin 124f.pdf

Good luck this winter!


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## chevyhauler

NLLMinnesota said:


> Chevhauler- thank you! I was able to dig up some more info and did find the Bulletin. The GM Bulletin reference is PIT#5287 and I found a GM Upfitter Bulletin #124F. I can't seem to upload the files here, but it explains exactly what the issue is. The collective information here helped a ton. I went to my local GMC service department.. The manager I dealt with was unfamiliar with the issue, but once I showed him the bulletin he gladly got me a service appointment to install the additional wire harness. I did read that GM supposedly was shipping these harnesses in the glovebox with SPP package trucks, although my 2016 model (manufac in March) did not. I believe this info is in the upfitter bulletin.
> 
> https://www.gmupfitter.com/files/media/photo/745/UI Bulletin 124f.pdf
> 
> Good luck this winter!


That is it sir!!
Good detective work!
Thank you also, for posting that link for future generations. LOL
I have heard good results from that being installed.
Good luck and let us know how the results are.


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