# Nationals fail on Nemo!



## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

Did anyone else get an absurd # of calls from every national company that services accounts in your area?

We lost AMC sidewalk contract this year to a certain one that starts with an F after we warned them that the contractor was doing the walks with shovels and could not perform on a large storm. We serviced this site with a Walker with a blower throughout the storms and 2 shovelers and they had 0 closure time on the winter 2 years ago. Said management company started calling me Saturday morning as the contractor never touched the site, it took them 4 days to find a contractor to get the sidewalks fully cleared.The AMC staff cleared the fire exits and entrances themselves so they could open.

We also received calls for Walgreens, Target, Walmart(Massive Plaza), Rite Aid, Sears and Giant and who knows how many more I couldn't keep up with them. All for vendor failures from various national companies. Target, Walmart and Giant should all have equipment staged there and there has been nothing on site all year.

Yet these companies are still utilizing the Nationals, how does that make sense? Walmart was closed for 3-4 days. That has got to be nearly 3/4 of million in lost revenue.

What does it take to open there eyes?


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## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

cda817;1601836 said:


> Did anyone else get an absurd # of calls from every national company that services accounts in your area?
> 
> We lost AMC sidewalk contract this year to a certain one that starts with an F after we warned them that the contractor was doing the walks with shovels and could not perform on a large storm. We serviced this site with a Walker with a blower throughout the storms and 2 shovelers and they had 0 closure time on the winter 2 years ago. Said management company started calling me Saturday morning as the contractor never touched the site, it took them 4 days to find a contractor to get the sidewalks fully cleared.The AMC staff cleared the fire exits and entrances themselves so they could open.
> 
> ...


The problem is these people that run these co. have no real clue on anything. the nationals come in and say it's one stop shopping you call us and we handel all your places for short money. but no one is in the area when the bad weather hits or the good weather. then the nationals are lucky enough to find some one to do it for next to nothing.I had a job i bid on and themanagement co that was handeling the site says the other guys does it for this and even sands it for practicaly nothing , i said then you better keep him because i'm not plowing it for free like he is. no idea why they where even looking for price if they wanted it that cheap.


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

The nationals use the legitimate companies # or the incumbent contractors # as a price to charge the client then find someone to do it for half. That is how they make a profit. The client does not save any actual money. They save by only having to process one payment to the National maintenance company versus 2,000 to individual contractors, and not having to manage vendors.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Always baffles the hell out of me why any contractor would do snow removal services for ANY kind of a management type company.IMHO they are nothing more than pimps collecting and controlling money they did very little work to earn while the contractor is doing the REAL work for usually less than the job is worth and then having to worry about getting paid.


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## JB1 (Dec 29, 2006)

puts a big smile on your face to get them calls.


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## TJSNOW (Jul 26, 2009)

The "Nationals" did not fail.........The "Local" contractors they had in place Failed....


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

@ TJS you are exactly right! Management company sent out reps to AMC and told them exactly that.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

TJSNOW;1601898 said:


> The "Nationals" did not fail.........The "Local" contractors they had in place Failed....


Right on! Thumbs Up


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## bln (Feb 12, 2004)

The Nationals have to know there will be failure when they get someone to service these accounts at their prices.


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## snowbrothers101 (Jul 27, 2009)

That is funny...to say the nationals failed. Aren't we the ones plowing? No offense to my fellow local vendors but I'm glad when you fail, with or without the natioanls in play...because when you do, I will pick up some work.

So many of us want to say "we are so good, it is those natioanls who stink", yet I ahve seen some of the largest competitiors in my market fail during an event. Does your local pluumber or mechanic always do a great job? Do you blame a national when they do?

Let's circle the wagons on the work we do and everything else will work itself out. Blaming "the man" for your troubles in my mind is a waste of time.


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

The only contractors that will do it for the Nationals prices, are the ones that either don't know how to price a lot, or are just starting up, and trying to figure it out. Of course they are going to fail. Who was able to start a business up from scratch and have enough equipment to handle these jobs. If they have the right equipment, they have to know they aren't making enough money to pay for it. If everyone would quit working for these guys, they would go under.
We have a guy in town that is plowing an 8 acre Lowes lot with 2 pick-ups with 8 foot blades on them. I keep waiting for a nice 10 or 12 inch snowfall to come, and bury him, but it just never happens.


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

anyone here ever here of the term bonded ?


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Rc2505;1601979 said:


> The only contractors that will do it for the Nationals prices, are the ones that either don't know how to price a lot, or are just starting up, and trying to figure it out. Of course they are going to fail. Who was able to start a business up from scratch and have enough equipment to handle these jobs. If they have the right equipment, they have to know they aren't making enough money to pay for it. If everyone would quit working for these guys, they would go under.
> We have a guy in town that is plowing an 8 acre Lowes lot with 2 pick-ups with 8 foot blades on them. I keep waiting for a nice 10 or 12 inch snowfall to come, and bury him, but it just never happens.


Wait until they get a storm like Nemo to come through 

We have one around here that does a similar lot with a pickup and a loader I'm curious how their lot looks after the last couple of weeks?


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## AccuCon (Jan 31, 2013)

I got an absurd number of calls period...

But yeah there was a lot of equipment and general failures from that storm...I def. scored on that..

Some people just dont understand the concept of a good maintenance program!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

TJSNOW;1601898 said:


> The "Nationals" did not fail.........The "Local" contractors they had in place Failed....


And I bet these Nationals called to say they fired these companies and have better ones for the next storm,only to do it all over again.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

TJSNOW;1601898 said:


> The "Nationals" did not fail.........The "Local" contractors they had in place Failed....





cda817;1601910 said:


> @ TJS you are exactly right! Management company sent out reps to AMC and told them exactly that.





SnowGuy73;1601916 said:


> Right on! Thumbs Up


No, right off! Thumbs down.

The Nationals Failed. Whether a National uses employees or subcontractors it was the Nationals job to hire reliable people that will show up.

However corporate greed gets to share the blame because they left a dependable system of directly hiring competent locals that local management knows. To higher Nationals that promised great service at great savings.

When a deal that is offered is to good to be true, it is not.

Did those suits at the corps not know this?

Do the elite business schools as Wharton, Harvard, and such do not teach this basic business knowledge?

But when spreading around criticism me must say that if there were not any low balling Ho's with plows the Nationals would have to hire their own crews and buy their own equipment. With facing real costs the Nationals would have to give up this business.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

grandview;1602090 said:


> And I bet these Nationals called to say they fired these companies and have better ones for the next storm,only to do it all over again.


The nationals would make great politicians !!!


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

The biggest issue with the nationals is really the fact that there is no accountability as to how anything will actually be completed. Most (not all), but most of them focus on the numbers and how to protect themselves from liability. 

I've had these people give me budgets of $20,000 for a 10 acre lot. When I explain its impossible for anyone, let alone me, given the expense of equipment alone, they tell me "oh don't worry about it, throw a skid steer down there, and have a truck swing through every few hours." Yea, sounds great in the summer time while your sitting in an air conditioned office. But they aren't paying you to put a skid steer down there with a truck swinging by every so often. They are paying you to perform on the scope of work and have the place clean no matter what. So when the sh*t hits the fan, does anyone think they will say "Oh, don't worry... We told you to be under equipped, so its our fault.. No sweat! Go home get some sleep, and start in on it again tomorrow buddy!" 

They just don't think of the reality of what this job entails..


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

I personally think it's primarily the Nationals failure...due to their lowball tactics...which only the new guys or someone that does not know what the value of the work is...takes. That being said, the ultimate responsibility falls on the Nationals shoulders.

I had quite a few (14 locations) snagged from me by a National this year in Maryland. So far they have been lucky and nothing has hit them. However, I am awaiting the phone call when they are not serviced to the level they were serviced when I had them. Of course, the price will undoubtedly go up if/when they do call. I can already hear the "but...you did them before for 'x' amount". My response will be that was the price then and this is the price now. If they do not like it, they can contact the same National again if they so desire.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Lot of ignorant statements made about only newbies or contractors who don't know their numbers can work for nationals. We work for a few, know our numbers quite well and its been working well. With certain contracts the money is there. I'm getting so sick of the whining. If you don't want to work for them or can't figure out how then don't, but quit crying about it. They aren't going away.


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

cda817;1601836 said:


> What does it take to open there eyes?


Post these stories on their Facebook page and not on here.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Camden;1602424 said:


> Post these stories on their Facebook page and not on here.


Don't be making sense on here.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

tuney443;1601883 said:


> Always baffles the hell out of me why any contractor would do snow removal services for ANY kind of a management type company.IMHO they are nothing more than pimps collecting and controlling money they did very little work to earn while the contractor is doing the REAL work for usually less than the job is worth and then having to worry about getting paid.


Hey, it's working great for the oil speculators, why not snow speculators?


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

Longae29;1602423 said:


> Lot of ignorant statements made about only newbies or contractors who don't know their numbers can work for nationals. We work for a few, know our numbers quite well and its been working well. With certain contracts the money is there. I'm getting so sick of the whining. If you don't want to work for them or can't figure out how then don't, but quit crying about it. They aren't going away.


We got one for the nationals


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

Longae29;1602423 said:


> Lot of ignorant statements made about only newbies or contractors who don't know their numbers can work for nationals. We work for a few, know our numbers quite well and its been working well. With certain contracts the money is there. I'm getting so sick of the whining. If you don't want to work for them or can't figure out how then don't, but quit crying about it. They aren't going away.


I think you are missing the point. These nationals come in and cut the contracts down to an impossible budget. For instance we were getting $270 to apply Peladow to 15000 sq ft of walkway at a high traffic theatre and the Main entrance is the north exposure. Management company came in and told us that our competition was doing it for $50 if we couldn't match it then we would lose the account. Mind you this is after the competition had already cut us below the labor costs of this account for the snow removal portion. So they had no room to make it up else where.

How is this responsible on behalf of the management company? How can you be 3/4s of the way through the winter and not notice that a 30 acre site does not have loaders staged there?


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

cda817;1602636 said:


> I think you are missing the point. These nationals come in and cut the contracts down to an impossible budget. For instance we were getting $270 to apply Peladow to 15000 sq ft of walkway at a high traffic theatre and the Main entrance is the north exposure. Management company came in and told us that our competition was doing it for $50 if we couldn't match it then we would lose the account. Mind you this is after the competition had already cut us below the labor costs of this account for the snow removal portion. So they had no room to make it up else where.
> 
> How is this responsible on behalf of the management company? How can you be 3/4s of the way through the winter and not notice that a 30 acre site does not have loaders staged there?


While you have valid points to an extent, just because someone has lower overhead or is more efficient does not automatically mean they are lowballing\underbidding\etc.

Having said that, I have a JAA wannabe that is regularly 30-50% under everyone else. I know how he does it to an extent, but not completely.


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

OK.......Whats JAA?


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

Longae29;1602423 said:


> Lot of ignorant statements made about only newbies or contractors who don't know their numbers can work for nationals. We work for a few, know our numbers quite well and its been working well. With certain contracts the money is there. I'm getting so sick of the whining. If you don't want to work for them or can't figure out how then don't, but quit crying about it. They aren't going away.


You may be the exception to the typical issues with Nationals. If it is working for you, that's great. However, more often than not things do not go well except for the Nationals that are getting the checks.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Longae29;1602423 said:


> If you don't want to work for them or can't figure out how then don't, but quit crying about it. They aren't going away.


You must be new to the internet and Plowsite. 



cda817;1602636 said:


> I think you are missing the point. These nationals come in and cut the contracts down to an impossible budget. For instance we were getting $270 to apply Peladow to 15000 sq ft of walkway at a high traffic theatre and the Main entrance is the north exposure. Management company came in and told us that our competition was doing it for $50 if we couldn't match it then we would lose the account. Mind you this is after the competition had already cut us below the labor costs of this account for the snow removal portion. So they had no room to make it up else where.
> 
> How is this responsible on behalf of the management company? How can you be 3/4s of the way through the winter and not notice that a 30 acre site does not have loaders staged there?


There are either of two ways it can go:

1. That level of service is unpleasant but ultimately acceptable. The nature of this crap economy is that everyone can't have luxuries like perfect snow/ice service. Crap economy, costs cut, crap service. Pissed off customers and employees whine about the parking lot but don't sue or go somewhere else often enough to be worth paying more.

2. That level of service is unacceptable and unsustainable, and eventually the customer will get tired of the national's excuses. They'll try again with a different national, then they'll try a lowballing local, then another lowballing local, then eventually they'll increase their budget.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

dfd9;1602684 said:


> While you have valid points to an extent, just because someone has lower overhead or is more efficient does not automatically mean they are lowballing\underbidding\etc.
> 
> Having said that, I have a JAA wannabe that is regularly 30-50% under everyone else. I know how he does it to an extent, but not completely.


I don't understand how overhead can be lower if you are comparing 2 companies bidding a lot? Unless one company has fleet/volume discounts on fuel/de-icer/equipment? Even then is that discount greater than the 50% price reduction some companies are offering?


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Bossman 92;1602688 said:


> OK.......Whats JAA?


John Allin, the one who turned a service into a commodity and started the race to the bottom.

The original national maintenance company who failed and screwed tons of subs, as well as suppliers.



jrs.landscaping;1602702 said:


> I don't understand how overhead can be lower if you are comparing 2 companies bidding a lot? Unless one company has fleet/volume discounts on fuel/de-icer/equipment? Even then is that discount greater than the 50% price reduction some companies are offering?


Then you don't understand business.

And you didn't read all of my post.

Let's face it, can you make money plowing snow at $40-45 an hour in most parts of the country? Or selling salt at $90\ton.

Absolutely. I could.

Why would I want to?

Although long term, I doubt it would be sustainable. Volume could make up for some of it.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

At $40 PH I'd make more money sitting on the couch


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

dfd9;1602570 said:


> Hey, it's working great for the oil speculators, why not snow speculators?


2 different animals but here's another take for you guys: If the client really,really cared about not only clearing snow/ice correctly and in a timely manner to get uninterrupted business to occur AND to avoid any slip and falls,if they want to pimp out one of these ''management companies'',then they should be willing and obliged to procure a contractor's services just like the government does.LOWEST RESPONSIBLE BIDDER with emphasis on RESPONSIBLE!!!!!!!I If contractors A,B,and C are $20K,$21K,and $22K and contractor D is $10K,IMHO D simply is either not responsible or just doesn't know how to estimate snow removal services so don't give him the contract.SIMPLE!!!!


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

dfd9;1602740 said:


> John Allin, the one who turned a service into a commodity and started the race to the bottom.
> 
> The original national maintenance company who failed and screwed tons of subs, as well as suppliers.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I should have thought about it for a sec and I would have figured it out.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

cda817;1602636 said:


> I think you are missing the point. These nationals come in and cut the contracts down to an impossible budget. For instance we were getting $270 to apply Peladow to 15000 sq ft of walkway at a high traffic theatre and the Main entrance is the north exposure. Management company came in and told us that our competition was doing it for $50 if we couldn't match it then we would lose the account. Mind you this is after the competition had already cut us below the labor costs of this account for the snow removal portion. So they had no room to make it up else where.
> 
> How is this responsible on behalf of the management company? How can you be 3/4s of the way through the winter and not notice that a 30 acre site does not have loaders staged there?





dfd9;1602684 said:


> While you have valid points to an extent, just because someone has lower overhead or is more efficient does not automatically mean they are lowballing\underbidding\etc.
> 
> Having said that, I have a JAA wannabe that is regularly 30-50% under everyone else. I know how he does it to an extent, but not completely.


Co A bidding $270 for a job and Co B for $50 is just because they have that much lower overhead?

I think it sounds more like low balling and or they do not know the market pricing and are leaving a lot of money on the table.


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## scottydosnntkno (Jan 4, 2010)

jrs.landscaping;1602702 said:


> I don't understand how overhead can be lower if you are comparing 2 companies bidding a lot? Unless one company has fleet/volume discounts on fuel/de-icer/equipment? Even then is that discount greater than the 50% price reduction some companies are offering?


easy.

take a company that leases their loaders in the winter time, maybe a bobcat or two, and has 3 or 4 newer trucks that are financed. That can easily be $5000/mo or more just in payments alone.

now take the company I sub for. They do road construction in the summer, so all of their loaders/excavators/bobcats sit idle all winter. They are all older but top of the line CAT equipment that is meticulously maintained (stripped and painted every 3 years, etc etc). Same with the trucks, all 5+ years old, bought for 10k cash or less.

Their equipment and trucks could sit all winter long with no snow and we wouldn't be out any money. We have just enough seasonals to cover our insurance payments, everything else is per push. If we're not pushing, our guys aren't getting paid so thats a big chunk right there.

We could plow for $30/hr and still make money after paying wages. $0 truck payment, $10/hr in fuel, $15/hr for a driver. That $5 would go to maintenace of the vehicles, which is all done in house by one of two full time mechanics who work on the heavy equipment. Breakdowns aren't an issue. Loader goes down? No problem we have 5 more back in the yard ready to put on the low boy. Truck dies? All trucks are fords so we have batteries/alternators/starters in the shop ready to go, along with 2 whole backup trucks w/plows.

bottom line, if you run your business with financed equipment, your costs will naturally be higher.

So yes, someone could potentially bid 50% less and still be making money, since they have virtually no revolving overhead.

That said, do we big lower? definitely not. Market rate is market rate for a reason, just because we run a leaner business and snow is a "bonus" for us doesn't mean we should do it any cheaper.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Really? So those mechanics and their support equipment are pro bono when something breaks? Same with the lowbed to move equipment, driver, fuel, HUT, DOT reg, truck reg, Ins etc, etc..... That costs nothing?

Running equipment COSTS money, it's a big word I know but if I had a $70k + machine I don't think I'd be happy running it for less than the guy at Micky D's is making flipping burgers 

Also there is no thing as $0 payment, there is always recovery/replacement factored into the equation unless your equipment runs forever and never needs to be replaced?


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## bluerage94 (Dec 24, 2004)

The Nationals aren't going anywhere...If you say no to the job the 9 guys behind you in line will say yes...


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## scottydosnntkno (Jan 4, 2010)

jrs.landscaping;1603103 said:


> Really? So those mechanics and their support equipment are pro bono when something breaks? Same with the lowbed to move equipment, driver, fuel, HUT, DOT reg, truck reg, Ins etc, etc..... That costs nothing?
> 
> Running equipment COSTS money, it's a big word I know but if I had a $70k + machine I don't think I'd be happy running it for less than the guy at Micky D's is making flipping burgers
> 
> Also there is no thing as $0 payment, there is always recovery/replacement factored into the equation unless your equipment runs forever and never needs to be replaced?


mechanics are all salaried, working normal hours prepping/building/refurbing equipment for the upcoming season.

all the others are already paid year round in Michigan on the trucks anyways.

recovery is factored into the road jobs we bid. Say we bid $XX/ft2 for a patch job, $.XX of that goes towards the equipment fund. All of our vehicles/equipment are bought in cash, typically several years old from the auction of companies that bought all new and couldnt cut it. Once bought, they are virtually paid for after the first job we buy them for. This year we bought a 30' paver, 2 years old at auction for roughly double what the scrap value would be. We used that $60,000 machine for 5 miles of new road and it paid for itself. For that 5 miles of 3 lane road, that machine cost us 7.5 cents a square foot, and its fully paid for. Anything else it does in the future is a bonus. Yes, its "worth" $450,000, but to us it owes us nothing since we got our money out of it already.

the point was that we make our money in the summertime, our equipment owes us nothing in the winter. Hell, we have 13 excavators sitting in the yard as we speak, and have been sitting for over 3 months. We just do snow to give our good summer help some hours in the winter and make some money while doing it.

Our "winter expenses" are virtually nothing compared to a company that leases their loaders and has brand new trucks/etc.

snow is a very small portion of our business. When you do 20mil+ in roads, the $250k/year plowing is peanuts.

bottom line, our snow expenses are drastically lower than some others, while providing the same quality of service.


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

32vld;1602972 said:


> Co A bidding $270 for a job and Co B for $50 is just because they have that much lower overhead?
> 
> I think it sounds more like low balling and or they do not know the market pricing and are leaving a lot of money on the table.


Leaving so much on the table they are actually paying to apply peladow as the specs state. You cannot apply an effective amount of product to that large of an area for $50. Peladow retails for $18 a bag around here. We were applying 6-9 Bags depending on the conditions.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

@scottydosnntkno

It makes sense, one of the largest plowing contractors around here is also one of the largest construction companies. Having salaried mechanics helps and I'm sure everything is paid for in the summer months.

I just can't see how these guys are plowing for less than minimum wage, like I said if you have the manpower/equipment to bid lower that's fine but some of the prices these guys are getting just don't make any sense especially the smaller guys who have to lease equipment.


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## scottydosnntkno (Jan 4, 2010)

I agree in that some guys just don't bid right or don't want to make money. 

When you get to our size and bid on big contracts obviously its the top dawgs and we all bid competitively, it's not like we give away our services just because we could


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

scottydosnntkno;1603094 said:


> easy.
> 
> take a company that leases their loaders in the winter time, maybe a bobcat or two, and has 3 or 4 newer trucks that are financed. That can easily be $5000/mo or more just in payments alone.
> 
> ...


You are speaking as an employee and not as an owner. Your equipment whether costs have been recovered or not has a cost of operation and ownership whether you "recovered it all already or not". Why would you charge $30 an hour for a pickup truck when everyone else is charging 85+? You are leaving 55 an hour on the table. Yes the employees are making money but if I have assets on the road then I better be getting something off the top.

I paid 7k for my bobcat and I do that in snow stacking sales every winter but I don't call my Property Managers and say "Oh my machine is paid off I only need to pay my operator and for fuel now" so we can drop from 100+ an hour to 40. I got a good deal on a well maintained machine and when it comes time to replace it I need 30k+ potentially to put down on a new one if I can't find what I am looking for.

Loader goes down? Its going to need new parts that cost new money. Instead of saying those mechanics are salary and not recovering the winter cost build it into your winter rates and you could put that increased revenue into newer equipment and only need one mechanic maybe. Last time I checked more than batteries/alternators/starters are going to go bad and are the least of your worries on a pickup truck.

Snow requires special insurance that your paving company does not carry on the normal policy. The more snow you do the more it costs.

YES you are correct that you CAN charge 50% less but it is not a sustainable model you are just leaching resources from the paving company to give your guys hours and undercut the market. Rather than take the time and bid work you just lowball contracts and leave alot of money on the table. It is a poor business plan no matter how you look at it.


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## Adamck83 (Feb 8, 2013)

Someone explain to me what is so appealing about plowing a Lowes, or a Target parking lot. I just joined plow site recently but have read these forums for years. It seems like talk of these nationals always comes up. If people are so displeased with them, don't work for them. Is everyone bent out of shape because once fairly easy lucrative jobs, became not so lucrative when nationals took over? Maybe time to look at other avenues for revenue. There will always be lowballers, as well as companies, and property owners who hire them. With everyone wanting to plow these "big box stores" there is not going to be much room for profit if you have to beat 20+ other contractors bids in order to get the contract. There are other places around your area besides these nationally managed properties that it snows in the winter time, the biggest pain in the [email protected]@ properties tend to be the most profitable, such as condos, hospitals ect.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

32vld;1602972 said:


> Co A bidding $270 for a job and Co B for $50 is just because they have that much lower overhead?
> 
> I think it sounds more like low balling and or they do not know the market pricing and are leaving a lot of money on the table.


You need to reread my post.


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## scottydosnntkno (Jan 4, 2010)

cda817;1603163 said:


> You are speaking as an employee and not as an owner. Your equipment whether costs have been recovered or not has a cost of operation and ownership whether you "recovered it all already or not". Why would you charge $30 an hour for a pickup truck when everyone else is charging 85+? You are leaving 55 an hour on the table. Yes the employees are making money but if I have assets on the road then I better be getting something off the top.
> 
> I paid 7k for my bobcat and I do that in snow stacking sales every winter but I don't call my Property Managers and say "Oh my machine is paid off I only need to pay my operator and for fuel now" so we can drop from 100+ an hour to 40. I got a good deal on a well maintained machine and when it comes time to replace it I need 30k+ potentially to put down on a new one if I can't find what I am looking for.
> 
> ...


Which is why the lowballers go out of business, because they do not see the big picture in business.

I'm not an employee, I'm a year round sub. I sub snow in the winter and concrete cutting in the summer for the last 9 years, and have known the owners 23.

My point wasn't to justify charging low rates, just that you COULD charge low rates and potentially make money. Now, the lowballers with payments AND low prices? No wonder they're out of business


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## scottydosnntkno (Jan 4, 2010)

Adamck83;1603169 said:


> Someone explain to me what is so appealing about plowing a Lowes, or a Target parking lot. I just joined plow site recently but have read these forums for years. It seems like talk of these nationals always comes up. If people are so displeased with them, don't work for them. Is everyone bent out of shape because once fairly easy lucrative jobs, became not so lucrative when nationals took over? Maybe time to look at other avenues for revenue. There will always be lowballers, as well as companies, and property owners who hire them. With everyone wanting to plow these "big box stores" there is not going to be much room for profit if you have to beat 20+ other contractors bids in order to get the contract. There are other places around your area besides these nationally managed properties that it snows in the winter time, the biggest pain in the [email protected]@ properties tend to be the most profitable, such as condos, hospitals ect.


Honestly, depending on your area and how much snow you get, you get make a lot more money for yourself.

If you can get a few subs with 20-30 drives in each, get 3 or 4 of them, at $25drive you could easily make 2-3000 everytime you push


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## JJSLandscape (Sep 6, 2009)

:laughing::laughingCDA817 i was just browsing through some threads and came across yours. started reading and almost fell out of the chair laughing. im not sure who the original contractor ferrandino subbed this to was but I did find it a little strange that the sidewalks are seperate from the lot contract. low and behold like you already know the original sub failed to arrive and my phone starts ringing off the hook sunday morning. i originally told them thanks but no thanks im booked solid for 3-4 days. she says thanks and hangs up. 5 o clock rolls around and i get another 4 phone calls about the site. i had a guy free and sent him out there to take a look at it, someone went there with what looked like a toolcat and blower and made one pass in front of the entrance. really not as bad as i thought and my guys couldve handled it in 2-3 hours with our large blowers and a skidsteer blower. so just for laughs when they called back i told them $3000.00 for the sidewalks and exits. the guy puts me on hold to speak to his manager and says alright go ahead. i asked to fax a signed work order and he says he'll get something over. well, all i received was a scant email saying the work was authorized to perform. i've unfortunately dealt with this company before and that usually doesnt pan out well when the proper work orders are not submitted. so i call back and say i can not service the location without a legit order and the guy says fine ill get someone else. no one shows up again and i got a voicemail the next morning asking me to go out there. hilarious


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Adamck83;1603169 said:


> Someone explain to me what is so appealing about plowing a Lowes, or a Target parking lot. I just joined plow site recently but have read these forums for years. It seems like talk of these nationals always comes up. If people are so displeased with them, don't work for them. Is everyone bent out of shape because once fairly easy lucrative jobs, became not so lucrative when nationals took over? Maybe time to look at other avenues for revenue. There will always be lowballers, as well as companies, and property owners who hire them. With everyone wanting to plow these "big box stores" there is not going to be much room for profit if you have to beat 20+ other contractors bids in order to get the contract. There are other places around your area besides these nationally managed properties that it snows in the winter time, the biggest pain in the [email protected]@ properties tend to be the most profitable, such as condos, hospitals ect.


EXACTLY what I've been saying forever.The ONLY appealing thing I can think of is you can now put ''I've plowed Lowes'' in your resume when you put in your bid application to one of those condos/hospitals.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

Interesting comments .... I just want to add this >>>> The people that hire the Nationals do not know the logistics that go into getting their own property services. They automatically assume bigger is better as far as manpower and equipment and assume bigger as in volume of work will get them a lower price with quality work.

Ignorance is bliss.


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

JJSLandscape;1607282 said:


> :laughing::laughingCDA817 i was just browsing through some threads and came across yours. started reading and almost fell out of the chair laughing. im not sure who the original contractor ferrandino subbed this to was but I did find it a little strange that the sidewalks are seperate from the lot contract. low and behold like you already know the original sub failed to arrive and my phone starts ringing off the hook sunday morning. i originally told them thanks but no thanks im booked solid for 3-4 days. she says thanks and hangs up. 5 o clock rolls around and i get another 4 phone calls about the site. i had a guy free and sent him out there to take a look at it, someone went there with what looked like a toolcat and blower and made one pass in front of the entrance. really not as bad as i thought and my guys couldve handled it in 2-3 hours with our large blowers and a skidsteer blower. so just for laughs when they called back i told them $3000.00 for the sidewalks and exits. the guy puts me on hold to speak to his manager and says alright go ahead. i asked to fax a signed work order and he says he'll get something over. well, all i received was a scant email saying the work was authorized to perform. i've unfortunately dealt with this company before and that usually doesnt pan out well when the proper work orders are not submitted. so i call back and say i can not service the location without a legit order and the guy says fine ill get someone else. no one shows up again and i got a voicemail the next morning asking me to go out there. hilarious


I gave them the same price and requested payment in full before work started on Saturday morning and was not willing to wait 60+ days for payment which is there typical turnaround on payment. They told me they had to put it out to bid! And the onslaught of calls ensued for days after. It was Tuesday before they had them done.


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

The original "company" was a couple guys in an obs f150 with a mtd blower and shovels. No clue how they met the paperwork or insurance requirements.


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## JJSLandscape (Sep 6, 2009)

i guess great minds think alike in terms of payment! thats great how they had it done tuesday. im sure the move theatre employees are probably going to complain about how they had to shovel the emergency exits as well


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## tbyc (Dec 15, 2011)

It's all about the right fit guys, if you fit with a lot for the right price and fit with the bill payer it all works out


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## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

Well it dounds good right fit and if you like to get paid close to the end of the season or maybe into summer but . why should a hard working co have to do a big lot for less that has the rep and good equipment? 

Lets face it these nationals are no where to be found during a storm it's the same guys that have always plowed the area in question all the nationals do is charge the big boxes what they would be charged if some one local got the contract. and they probably make 40% ( i really have no idea just putting a % out there) and the sub makes the rest but the national looses nothing because they don't pay till they get get paid. 
The only real thing you get with a nation from a big box point of view is there corp office has only 1 number to call and that is it . instead of leaving it to the individual store to deal with. I;m sure it still comes out of that particular store budget but they have now power to hire or fire they refer it to corp.It's not like working for a national you don't need any insurance or it's not your problem if something happens because it is i think there is just a few more people for a lawyer to sue .


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## snoway63 (Dec 29, 2009)

Yes i get repeated calls from the company starting with F and still today getting calls they failed big time and when i asked if they could tell me what they pay on a particular lot i was familiar with they were way lowballing so big it would cost me money to do it and told them here in suffolk county ny they better figure a better way to pay and told them my cost and they were totally shocked how do they stay in business and how do guys work for them at such little prices
During the blizzard we got they were calling me like every hour very annoying IM sure they wont be getting those accounts again and should'nt have told me all the locations LOL


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

tuney443;1607320 said:


> EXACTLY what I've been saying forever.The ONLY appealing thing I can think of is you can now put ''I've plowed Lowes'' in your resume when you put in your bid application to one of those condos/hospitals.


Anyone who has read any of my previous posts knows how i feel about the nationals. Ive said it once and I will say it again, I run MY BUSINESS and ill be dam if im gonna line another companys pockets with thousands........ I wouldnt care if they offered me twice what I would bid. There is absolutely no need for these nationals. It was all good before they ever came about.

I plowed for a pamida store for years. They had gone through several contractors and finally They decided to give me a shot even though they werent happy with my pricing. The store manager wouldnt have gotten rid of us for anything. When they showed up to work we had things taken care of and YOU GET WHAT YA PAY FOR. This was this way for several years THEN pamida sold out to shopko. I get a call from ferandino saying they have the contract and wanted to know if i wanted it. I told them to send me what they had to offer even though I knew i wasnt going to work for them. There offer was rediculous to say the least and i told them so. I told them what the average was that i made off the job over the past 4 years and they just simply said they couldnt do it. cool, quit calling me then.

Ever since then, service has been terrible there. Not so much because the guy isnt trying hes just jumped in as a rookie and has no clue what he got himself into. The management tells me all the time they want me back and I just say tell Shopko upper management that. It wont matter

Now that they have the rookie pushing the site, he told me what he signed for ( the amount they offered me in the beginning). Also said he hasnt been paid for work done in dec (not paid for anything yet). While hes busy working for pennys hes making them rich ( along with all of you that work for the nationals). I think its idiotic myself. I will go get a 9-5 if I want to make someone else a bunch of money.........

I run my business and be dam if im gonna answer to someone else...... It was said above, if you can work for them fine. If you don't want to dont. But I do believe that most that are backing the nationals just havent been boned by them yet. Give it a bit, they will lube ya up and stick it to ya and you were warned by several on this site, so don't whine.


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

scottydosnntkno;1603276 said:


> Honestly, depending on your area and how much snow you get, you get make a lot more money for yourself.
> 
> If you can get a few subs with 20-30 drives in each, get 3 or 4 of them, *at $25drive you could easily make 2-3000 everytime you push*


I'd rather make the 2k myself in a days plowing and not be worried if other subs are doing the job and doing it right. I'm billing out over 2k just from the storm we got yesterday. I'm not afraid to get out of the truck either and shovel small areas in order to have the property cleared properly. I spent 10hrs yesterday on 17 properties and grossed over 2k. Why would I want to work for a national for what would be half that or less?


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

ALC-GregH;1616360 said:


> I'd rather make the 2k myself in a days plowing and not be worried if other subs are doing the job and doing it right. I'm billing out over 2k just from the storm we got yesterday. I'm not afraid to get out of the truck either and shovel small areas in order to have the property cleared properly. I spent 10hrs yesterday on 17 properties and grossed over 2k. Why would I want to work for a national for what would be half that or less?


bingo!!!!!!!!! I honestly wish I didnt have commercial work to be honest. Id be happier with a bunch of in and out residentials. Ive only got a few but I make money 10 fold on them compared to my commercial work. I have 3 driveways in a row in a sub division. at each one about 15 minutes a piece for pushing drive and cleaning walks and each one is 60 bucks. $180 in 45 minutes just aint to freakin bad. I couldnt get commercials at that kinda money hourly.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

CDA, what kind of equipment do you have?

Any guys up there that had a good amount of blowers, machines, compact stuff and loaders made out well im sure.

I do love how management companies hire guys to do work, have ridiculous requirements like a loader or skid w 10' box is required to be left on their 150k or smaller site, no one ever does it and then they don't even own one to clear it out once the storm is over! 


We talked to Northeastern snow and ice i believe, well they're up from your area, and they were willing to contract us out hourly per machine to bring up our 5 John Deeres from NJ... yet most roads were still closed, they had no idea where we could park the trucks and trailers, offload the machines and it wasn't a flat hourly rate... more like, go to this site, and time starts now, when done, time stops until we find you the next site to drive to...

They also couldn't guarantee us any specific amount of hours or days. If they said, we'll have you working non stop with your crews for 4-6 days, fine, but they couldn't even send a temp contract for two days. We'd need 5 trucks coming up with a trailer to sleep in when crews are in between their shifts and 4 pulling the 5 machines on trailers... The mobilization cost alone could be a fortune only to get there and have nothing in writing ?


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

We have a bunch of equipment,

3 Ford SuperDuties and another on the way
Explorer Sport Trac Sidewalk Crew
Thomas 153 Skid
Bobcat S175 w/72" Schulte Blower
Mahindra 6010 w/Inverted and Standard Blower
Walker w/Snowplow
12 or So Toro Commercial Blowers

Working on adding a small wheel loader and a new sidewalk machine to replace the walker for this season depending on how the contracts come back.

If you send me your contact info we are working on a list of resources that are out of our area should a similar situation happen again.


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