# So now that Nemo is done ,what is your opinion on Blizzards?



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

So ,all you new guys who wanted a Blizzard to plow because you thought it would be cool.Do you want to go though that again ,or would you prefer some nice and easy 2-4 inch snows?


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## downtoearthnh (Jan 16, 2009)

The good news about Nemo was that the temps were low,and the snow was not saturated with moisture! If that had happened, all hell would have broken loose,and there would be no desire to repeat it. As it was, we plowed all of our residential drives 3 times, some 4 times, and the job was finished in 18 hours. Not bad, but certainly not a 4 hour plow for a 4" storm. I can recall one storm in the early 90's when we went out Friday night at 8 PM and didn't finish our route til Sunday at 4 PM non-stop, that was a blizzard!


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## M&M (Sep 8, 2008)

My motto for motivation during a hard or long night of plowing (and anyone can use it) is "Keep your eye on the prize!" The prize being the $$$$ that you'll make.

It's great when my wife calls and I'm all pissy because of this or that and she says "keep your eye on the prize." It really does help.

I picked the love them option on the poll. The prize is BIGGER!


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## snowplowpro (Feb 7, 2006)

I didn't mind it at all it was easy packing and we went early came home and went back out. Ill take one a week. But I want one like the blizzard of 96 .


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## 2ExploreSnow (Aug 30, 2011)

Oh, just give me an old-fashioned 20-30" snowstorm. 

When you get into the severe storms, like a blizzard, you get into life-death situations. Wind whipped snow gets into homes where none had before. Snow is like concrete, only the stronger blowers and buckets are productive, pickups with plows are just about useless. The blizzard of '93 taught me that... 33" on top of a foot or so existing. and yes, there were places where we could drive on top of the snow, it was that packed... of course you'd fall through in nearby soft spot. Friends up in the Dakotas can attest to this as they have much more experience with them. So yes I'm more of the 'family friendly' versions of snowfall.


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

2ExploreSnow;1596695 said:


> Oh, just give me an old-fashioned 20-30" snowstorm.
> 
> When you get into the severe storms, like a blizzard, you get into life-death situations. Wind whipped snow gets into homes where none had before. Snow is like concrete, only the stronger blowers and buckets are productive, pickups with plows are just about useless. The blizzard of '93 taught me that... 33" on top of a foot or so existing. and yes, there were places where we could drive on top of the snow, it was that packed... of course you'd fall through in nearby soft spot. Friends up in the Dakotas can attest to this as they have much more experience with them. So yes I'm more of the 'family friendly' versions of snowfall.


I agree with the above post.
You other guys are crazy for wanting a blizzard. I want and need snow also but anything over 15inches gets too crazy. Think about all the drifting too. I have enough plow work that i make enough money in a 2-4 inch storm too be happy. Like someone else said there are sometimes dangerous situations with blizzards. But to each his own!


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## 2006Sierra1500 (Dec 28, 2011)

Charge double, plow once? I'll take it.


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## mulcahy mowing (Jan 16, 2006)

Love them bills are huge and you can do one timers for $100-200 to dig them out. Big money maker. Does beat the truck though.


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## Ne1 (Jan 15, 2007)

Im here in the midwest where seasonal contracts are not that common. So my question for you guys on the east coast that have seasonal contracts is on a storm like Nemo are you expected to plow a event like that under your regular seasonal rate?


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Ne1;1597015 said:


> Im here in the midwest where seasonal contracts are not that common. So my question for you guys on the east coast that have seasonal contracts is on a storm like Nemo are you expected to plow a event like that under your regular seasonal rate?


Yes sir, unless there's a blizzard clause in your contract


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

2 inches ,2feet all the same ,easy push.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

It's over I'm glad I have been through this before and still don't like it 
My seasonal contract has a clause over 10 inches is then is $100 an inch or more depends on size of lot 
Residential who pay $750-$1000 for the season get charged an extra $50 for snow over 10 inches
I have always respected people who do this more often than one time a year people who really plow not what I do a bunch of 2-6 inch storms and call that hard work 
This storm cost me $12000 in labor fuel salt and 3 minor repairs 
I made over $20000 but how long will it be before I get paid 3 months it took years off my truck 
Long story short its over I'm done I want spring and glad I don't get that weather too often life goes on


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## BladeBlowBucket (Feb 6, 2013)

So ?? … I guess if you were to add up the LOVE THEM ones and the I WANT ONE EVERYTIME ones that would be the same  right ???


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

grandview;1595101 said:


> So ,all you new guys who wanted a Blizzard to plow because you thought it would be cool.Do you want to go though that again ,or would you prefer some nice and easy 2-4 inch snows?


2 to 4 inch snows every day are the most profitable.


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

birddseedd;1597164 said:


> 2 to 4 inch snows every day are the most profitable.


Maybe for you but give me less than 1" every other day and I am good.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

iv only got 2 z tolerance accounts


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

It was tough, I learned much. As in how important it is to have multiple two stage blowers. I lost a truck right off the bat that screwed me up pretty bad. In storms like this past one, you need to keep up the momentum at all times as not to fall behind. If I knew we were having another one of these, I would buy two more wranglers and set them up identical to the one I used during this storm. A driver, a passenger and a two stage where the back seat goes. I will also be taking the bed off of my F350 SRW, and put a cab width flat bed dump on it for hauling a spreader and busting out city berms in front of the drives. I would also like to have a small deere loader, like a 244J with a plate on it. Hauling the bobcats around was a HUGE PITA in the city. Had to have a guy just do circles in the truck and trailer while we cleared snow. Wicked PITA..... All in all we got through, but no where near as smooth as I would have liked. 

To answer the question though, I'd take three or four 3 inch storms a week all season rather than 10 of these things all day long.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Seems like most of the guys out east had it pretty good with this blizzard.

Whenever we get a blizzard with 12+ inches of snow, it seems to be accompanied by dangerous winds.

Couple of seasons ago that happened and everyone, including the DOT's pulled off the roads until the worst of the snow and wind subsided. There was no plowing with the storm so to speak as if you tried to travel between accounts you were asking for trouble.

It was a nightmare after that. Lots of snow and huge drifts where you normally didn't have drifting.

Then, you had customers calling the next morning to come plow them out when you couldn't even get down the street to their houses.

So no, I do not like blizzards between the lack of sleep, equipment breakdowns and brutally cold conditions afterwards.



............


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## vlc (Dec 8, 2012)

I was miserable during the storm, lost a transmission, and barely got any sleep. But after looking over my paperwork and seeing about how much I'll be billing out, my frown instantly turned upside down


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

vlc;1597397 said:


> I was miserable during the storm, lost a transmission, and barely got any sleep. But after looking over my paperwork and seeing about how much I'll be billing out, my frown instantly turned upside down


I havent even crunched numbers yet. I'm guessing around 15K, and that is after I clearly lost 2000-2500 because of a down truck.. Never anticipated reaching the fourth and fifth tier of my pricing schedule lol....


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## L.I.Mike (Dec 28, 2002)

I didnt mind, plowed with the storm so i could keep up. A lot of people here stopped plowing at 11 and started again at 5 am and were doomed. The snow was to heavy and deep to move without beating your truck.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

White Gardens;1597295 said:


> Seems like most of the guys out east had it pretty good with this blizzard.
> 
> Whenever we get a blizzard with 12+ inches of snow, it seems to be accompanied by dangerous winds.
> 
> ...


that was a beautiful event, take two of those every month.....i did spent alot of time driving fueling up loaders,skids and pulling eqm free


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## homebuilt (Dec 13, 2010)

i would not call "nemo" a blizzard. we gethat ine 12 hours of some decent lake effect. it's not fun unless the snow is as deep as the blade before you start pushing


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

homebuilt;1597500 said:


> i would not call "nemo" a blizzard. we gethat ine 12 hours of some decent lake effect. it's not fun unless the snow is as deep as the blade before you start pushing


I dont know about that

I've been doing this for 30+ years and this was the first time I saw 3" an hour snow for 3+ hours

sure seemed like a blizzard to us


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## MSS Mow (Mar 19, 2006)

siteworkplus;1597921 said:


> I dont know about that
> 
> I've been doing this for 30+ years and this was the first time I saw 3" an hour snow for 3+ hours
> 
> sure seemed like a blizzard to us


I've seen 4"+ an hour for 6+ hours on more than one occasion here on the coast of Maine. It's not everyday, but it does happen someone regularly (once every couple years). However, this storm was definitely a blizzard. Winds in excess of 70 mph with the heavy snowfall definitely constitutes a blizzard.


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## geer hed (Nov 22, 2010)

Feed me more.


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

homebuilt;1597500 said:


> i would not call "nemo" a blizzard. we gethat ine 12 hours of some decent lake effect. it's not fun unless the snow is as deep as the blade before you start pushing


Try telling that to the guys in CT.


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## THEGOLDPRO (Jun 18, 2006)

I HATE snow


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

THEGOLDPRO;1598331 said:


> I HATE snow


But loves beef jerky.


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Ok I have a question for everyone who wants more of these large storms. AND DON'T take this the wrong way cause I am not trying to be an a$$. Do you guys have commercial accounts where you have to make sure the lots are clear as often as possible? OR do you just plow a few drives and your own business or plow for extra cash.I don't mean it has to be some high profile acount or anything like that but just an average 24 hr account that wants to be open and plowed every few inches. The thought of a storm that drops 3+" per hr for multiple hrs makes me want to move to South Carolina. We handle many accounts that don't want to have any snow on their lots ever. I HATE storms over 8". I cant imagine dealing with 36" on our accounts that dont need done right away and are closed on the weekends, let alone one of our 24/7 zero tolerance accounts. I don't care if we charged 10x on a 36"+ snowfall I DON'T WANT IT!

Just asking cause I have never met anyone in this business who likes big snows.


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## IPLOWSNO (Oct 11, 2008)

All we got was 9"s,but we're use to bigger snowfalls,

The trouble with this was it snowed all night on a huge zero tolerance lot.

I feel they called us on too early, we actually waited for it to accumulate, then start pushing while everyone is trying to leave

We were there from 3 pm till 8am the next morning,

If we came in at midnight we could of been done early, and to top it off there's no one around on a Saturday 

I guess it was done to justify their seasonal rate and show our presence in the end


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Bossman 92;1598382 said:


> Ok I have a question for everyone who wants more of these large storms. AND DON'T take this the wrong way cause I am not trying to be an a$$. Do you guys have commercial accounts where you have to make sure the lots are clear as often as possible? OR do you just plow a few drives and your own business or plow for extra cash.I don't mean it has to be some high profile acount or anything like that but just an average 24 hr account that wants to be open and plowed every few inches. The thought of a storm that drops 3+" per hr for multiple hrs makes me want to move to South Carolina. We handle many accounts that don't want to have any snow on their lots ever. I HATE storms over 8". I cant imagine dealing with 36" on our accounts that dont need done right away and are closed on the weekends, let alone one of our 24/7 zero tolerance accounts. I don't care if we charged 10x on a 36"+ snowfall I DON'T WANT IT!
> 
> Just asking cause I have never met anyone in this business who likes big snows.


Believe it or not,zero tolerance goes out the window with storms like this.Lot of times they will try and send people home early. As long as you have the lanes open so they can go home not to many of them are going to complain.


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

grandview;1595101 said:


> So ,all you new guys who wanted a Blizzard to plow because you thought it would be cool.Do you want to go though that again ,or would you prefer some nice and easy 2-4 inch snows?


it's a no brainer , 30'' a month is fine with me . it's called " work" . did it a few years back here . back to back biggys . any day , any time any where . were ready, willin ,PROVEN and able . payup

getting paid is the hardest part :laughing:


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

Wow... sounds like a headache


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## Snow Commandor (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm ready for whatever mother nature thows @ us. 12" Nemo was not to hard for me. The worst part of Nemo was dealling with the residentials that we couldn't get to til late Saturday or Sunday morning. Cleaning the commercial lots was just like any other storm. I've said it before & I'll say it again. The key to handling big blizzards is to start working as soon as there's 4" on the ground & make multiple rounds.


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## racer47 (Feb 24, 2011)

im with bossman 92 .. we dont plow driveways, all commercial lots. no snow wanted on lots or walks. and their is alot of walks . plow salt everything 1 inch trigger .. less than 1 inch salt .. so i dont want the blizzard conditions i like to plow 4 inchs snows durning the day i can plow salt 20 lots, go home, eat, shower, nap . go back clean up after they close..get paid for 2 plows and 2 salts.. all in 5 miles area or so .. makes no sence to me to want anymore .. thats the best money for me if its a night time thing i like 2 or less i can get all do before their open and go home .. but i will take whatever comes my way. you never get it the way you want it


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

racer47;1598635 said:


> im with bossman 92 .. we dont plow driveways, all commercial lots. no snow wanted on lots or walks. and their is alot of walks . plow salt everything 1 inch trigger .. less than 1 inch salt .. so i dont want the blizzard conditions i like to plow 4 inchs snows durning the day i can plow salt 20 lots, go home, eat, shower, nap . go back clean up after they close..get paid for 2 plows and 2 salts.. all in 5 miles area or so .. makes no sence to me to want anymore .. thats the best money for me if its a night time thing i like 2 or less i can get all do before their open and go home .. but i will take whatever comes my way. you never get it the way you want it


did you ever stop to think you have too much on the plate then ? You can make a negative a positive , just by hiring more manpower , subbing it out more , sitting back doing nothing but supervision and billing . Its called growth in risk management . payup


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

Bossman 92;1598382 said:


> Ok I have a question for everyone who wants more of these large storms. AND DON'T take this the wrong way cause I am not trying to be an a$$. Do you guys have commercial accounts where you have to make sure the lots are clear as often as possible? OR do you just plow a few drives and your own business or plow for extra cash.I don't mean it has to be some high profile acount or anything like that but just an average 24 hr account that wants to be open and plowed every few inches. The thought of a storm that drops 3+" per hr for multiple hrs makes me want to move to South Carolina. We handle many accounts that don't want to have any snow on their lots ever. I HATE storms over 8". I cant imagine dealing with 36" on our accounts that dont need done right away and are closed on the weekends, let alone one of our 24/7 zero tolerance accounts. I don't care if we charged 10x on a 36"+ snowfall I DON'T WANT IT!
> 
> Just asking cause I have never met anyone in this business who likes big snows.


I know what you are saying

I also have a zero tolerance lot billed by the hour

but after sending out the invoices i didnt mind the 3+ days of busting balls so much

when the checks come in it will be only a memory and a cool story


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## Ziob34 (Oct 12, 2005)

i'd take 2" storms all day long in and out send out the bill........how are you guys billing the residential accounts that are billed by the pass? double? triple? quadruple charge?


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## cpmi (Dec 18, 2010)

Never liked them and never will-especially when your getting 2-4 inches an hour and main arteries are not plowed and remain unplowed for 12-24 hours. Some secondary roads were not opened up until Tuesday. If the city was able to keep the roads passable then these types of storms are much more manageable. But all in all still got it done with no major problems-just a lot of hours which comes with the job. Still would rather have six 6 inch storms than one 36 inch storm any day.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Well I am 18 and can run off Monster for a long time. Heres how the storm went for me. I ran a sidewalk crew for my boss who I met on here, so if he sees this he can agree this was about how I was.

1 Day Before: Pumped and ready to go, went to the shop and prepped.
1 Hour Before: Ready to go, excited, it wont be that bad.
24 Hours In: Finally got the 2WD stuck, boss pulled me out, Ready to go and still excited
48 Hours In: Still running strong.
50 Hours: Running Strong
50.5 Hours: Holy sh*t I hit a wall
Finish: Hit the bed, passed out, didnt wake up for 12 hours and couldnt get outta my driveway for school.

Now I understand why my boss kept saying he would rather have three 10" storms or five 6" storms.


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Spool it up;1598670 said:


> did you ever stop to think you have too much on the plate then ? You can make a negative a positive , just by hiring more manpower , subbing it out more , sitting back doing nothing but supervision and billing . Its called growth in risk management . payup


I can't speak for Racer but for us the answer is no we don't have too much on the plate. Our average storm is less than 4" and in the last 10 years we have never had a storm of 24" or more, let alone a storm of 36+". I agree with hiring subs but for us there is no need to as we can handel everything we get easily up to 12" and thats not a common storm for us.

I dislike big storm simply because It takes so much longer to plow anything, harder on equipment/guys and we only get to salt once before the storm and once after best case scenario.

I guess if we had the chance to have a block buster storm of 24"+ on a regular basis things would be different. But we just don't get big ones very often.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Anyone who "wants a blizzard" either does not really plow that many sq feet, has low expectation clients, or is all hourly on a lot of heavy equipment..


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

THis thread reminds me of a story. Many years ago a friend of mine knew an older guy who actually looked up and found Larry from the three stooges, so he went to the nursing home he was in and sat down and talked with him for an hour or so. He asked him "didnt alot of that stuff hurt"? Larry laughed and said oh yes but the pain always went away on pay day. Thought that was one of the best lines Ive heard.


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## snopushin ford (Feb 20, 2010)

I only do residential so I believe that I had it easier than most. I tried to go out at 9pm and did 3 driveways and turned around and went home. I could not see and I figured that I could potentially make driveways deeper by making snowbanks that would then blow in. So I got up at 4am and started plowing. Wasn't that bad, I did all my customers at least 2 times in 11 hrs. I will add that I think I would be singing a different tune if we still had snow on the ground, or if the snow was heavy. I hope next year to be switching to a tractor with blower and growing my route. So I guess my opinion of the storm is that it was perfect in the sense of being powder, barely any snowbanks, and the ground being frozen. 30+ inches of wet snow would have been a horror show. We had winds of 87mph at my brothers house who is up the street from me. We got lucky. Matt


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## MarineSniper (Nov 25, 2009)

Prepared a week out when I first heard of the possibilty of this storm for CT. Locked in an additional 5 subs with trucks, grabbed another Bobcat 863, fully loaded up on bulk salt, and finally, purchased an extra F350 dump with 9' fisher blade (had it driven up from New York the night before the storm). Had everyone meet at 1PM when the snow started and we stayed together inside the heated parking garage on site of three of our commercial lots. Were able to plow through the night to keep lots open, alon with our condo up the road. Went out in pairs, took turns pulling each other out, and watched the idiots at 2AM trying to drive home from the bars and abandoning their vehicles. Had all commercial lots completed by 9AM and turned all trucks to residential accounts. Finished by 3PM. Have spent the last week loading and hauling snow 24/7 from these commercial accounts. Spent a lot of money on payroll to keep everyone here. Spent a ton of money with subs working 24/7 loading and hauling. At the end of the month billing I can say that I am set for the year. Wouldn't want another one anytime soon, but I have only been doing this for 3 years and finally have seen the big dollar potential.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

merrimacmill;1599447 said:


> Anyone who "wants a blizzard" either does not really plow that many sq feet, has low expectation clients, or is all hourly on a lot of heavy equipment..


One charges by the hour, event, or season. pick one's favorite way. One is free to charge any way they want. Can not have it every way.

Do you refund the customer when snow fall is below average for the season?

Then do not complain that you lost money on a season that has a lot more snow then the average.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

grandview;1595101 said:


> So ,all you new guys who wanted a Blizzard to plow because you thought it would be cool.Do you want to go though that again ,or would you prefer some nice and easy 2-4 inch snows?


I've never been through a blizzard to date but I can tell you after doing snow removal for 7 years. I enjoy the 2-4 inch storms. I don't really enjoy anything much over 4 inches.

they are nicer because one visit to residentials and your done, maybe a couple visits to your commercial lots.

and there's none of this working 30+ hours with no sleep. max it takes me to do my current route is 12 hours.


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

mulcahy mowing;1596743 said:


> Love them bills are huge and you can do one timers for $100-200 to dig them out. Big money maker. Does beat the truck though.


thats like saying guns kill people . someone gotta pull the triggar


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

I hate the big blizzards, much prefer the smaller storms ranging from 3 to 10 inches.
Now having said that, we were ready with our commercial accounts ranging from small to big all were done by sunday afternoon.
Started 5pm Friday and ended 2am Sunday, slept 7 hours and then did clean up till 4pm.
Lost three trucks, one broken plow and one transmission, then lost another one due to a family member getting into an accident and they had to go. went down to 3 trucks at that point and tag teamed one property to the next.
Monday was renting a skidsteer to clear out one contract we couldn't do with the trucks -(I'm not kidding at least 6 to 8 feet of snow between the units and no place to winnow it and forget pushing it).
Tuesday and Wednesday was answering calls from people looking to get their driveways plowed out.
Thursday, slept all day and night into Friday.
Made some good money but if we don't have to do that again for the next 20 years, that well be fine with me.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

32vld;1599848 said:


> One charges by the hour, event, or season. pick one's favorite way. One is free to charge any way they want. Can not have it every way.
> 
> Do you refund the customer when snow fall is below average for the season?
> 
> Then do not complain that you lost money on a season that has a lot more snow then the average.


Yea, and I am 100% seasonal. I understand I'm "getting paid" to plow the snow. However, if it still snows I am still getting paid. Obviously, we all know that I would prefer it not to snow as it is simply money flying out the window.

This blizzard cost me an untold amount of money.. Sure we picked up a weeks worth of 24 hr work for several machines stacking/relocating afterwards, but still doesn't justify it in my head.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

merrimacmill;1601222 said:


> Yea, and I am 100% seasonal. I understand I'm "getting paid" to plow the snow. However, if it still snows I am still getting paid. Obviously, we all know that I would prefer it not to snow as it is simply money flying out the window.
> 
> This blizzard cost me an untold amount of money.. Sure we picked up a weeks worth of 24 hr work for several machines stacking/relocating afterwards, but still doesn't justify it in my head.


With seasonal the money is in the pot. So every time it snows, a little money comes out and at the end of the season you hope to have some left. And per plow is just the opposite,you put money into the pot and hope at the end of the yr after expenses there is money left in the pot.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

grandview;1601236 said:


> With seasonal the money is in the pot. So every time it snows, a little money comes out and at the end of the season you hope to have some left. And per plow is just the opposite,you put money into the pot and hope at the end of the yr after expenses there is money left in the pot.


Exactly. It can even change the decisions you make on a property. On a seasonal, pre-salting on a 1/2" to 1" event makes a lot of sense as I have determined it to be upwards of 75% cheaper than plowing that same amount of snow (for my operation at least). However, unless requested I would NEVER pre-salt a per push account, unless of course freezing rain is on the way. Whole different animal in that regard.

Having all seasonal pretty much by chance, has changed my attitude on snow removal maybe for the worse. It just makes me not enjoy any snow storm quite like I used to. I just watch the clock as it snows, doing rough additions of the total payroll for that storm.. I push for the per service accounts, but have trouble finding them more and more. Could be because our stuff has been getting larger and larger in terms of property size and those clients need to budget more.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I love a big storm early or before mid Jan. As it happened, most all of my customers are a PITA this yr as we have not had large storms and they think they are due, given that that they are all flat rate seasonals. Give me two big storms early and it's like Christmas as many just cant perform and I can get some good accts the following year. Next year business owners remember that and you have some room to bid. Personally I like plowing large storms but if it serves no practical purpose than it's just an exercise.

As an example, I had one business plowed out for 930 am on the sat of the blizzard because they said they wanted to open.. Of course, they could not, as their employees could not get there. Meanwhile the business owner next door showed up at 11am and with district mgr in his new escalade at 11am and had a thought to open until they saw the 4 ft drift of snow on the sidewalk entrance which is not my problem. Not to mention that no one was supposed to be on the road at that point in the storm so they had no clientele. In the 90 min between the time the lot was completely cleared to when they arrived the 35knts of wind filled in the lot with 8" of snow. Niiiiice. " Blizzard clauses" are not overrated. 
The frustrated, entitled business owners that have a big fat "Blizzard clause" in their contract with anything approaching 2" per hour, were still not happy . More money than brains is all I can say.

Its a competitive market. It's now that I wish I had a few per push accts.


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

I like all my snow before christmas. The bigger the better


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## RSE (Nov 27, 2012)

This storm was a test on my skill and equipment. I had a1acre lot with over 30" of wind-packed snow on it Saturday morning. What normally takes 20 min now took 1 hr and 20 min. I was totally impressed with the truck and the plows ability to stack.
Would I want a blizzard all the time? no...and I believe the customers wouldn't want one all the time either.


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

Watched ABC news last nite

scientists(professional guessers) predict less snow and more rain events in the coming years but 2+ footers being much more frequent as the climate gets warmer and the atmosphere retains more moisture
when this moisture eventually hits a cold air mass we get smoked
east coast is predicted to be more vulnerable due to jet streams, maybe?

time to stock up on loaders?


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## RSE (Nov 27, 2012)

siteworkplus;1601573 said:


> Watched ABC news last nite
> 
> scientists(professional guessers) predict less snow and more rain events in the coming years but 2+ footers being much more frequent as the climate gets warmer and the atmosphere retains more moisture
> when this moisture eventually hits a cold air mass we get smoked
> ...


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

merrimacmill;1601222 said:


> Yea, and I am 100% seasonal. I understand I'm "getting paid" to plow the snow. However, if it still snows I am still getting paid. Obviously, we all know that I would prefer it not to snow as it is simply money flying out the window.
> 
> This blizzard cost me an untold amount of money.. Sure we picked up a weeks worth of 24 hr work for several machines stacking/relocating afterwards, but still doesn't justify it in my head.





grandview;1601236 said:


> With seasonal the money is in the pot. So every time it snows, a little money comes out and at the end of the season you hope to have some left. And per plow is just the opposite,you put money into the pot and hope at the end of the yr after expenses there is money left in the pot.





merrimacmill;1601248 said:


> Exactly. It can even change the decisions you make on a property. On a seasonal, pre-salting on a 1/2" to 1" event makes a lot of sense as I have determined it to be upwards of 75% cheaper than plowing that same amount of snow (for my operation at least). However, unless requested I would NEVER pre-salt a per push account, unless of course freezing rain is on the way. Whole different animal in that regard.
> 
> Having all seasonal pretty much by chance, has changed my attitude on snow removal maybe for the worse. It just makes me not enjoy any snow storm quite like I used to. I just watch the clock as it snows, doing rough additions of the total payroll for that storm.. I push for the per service accounts, but have trouble finding them more and more. Could be because our stuff has been getting larger and larger in terms of property size and those clients need to budget more.


This means that you are forgetting the years when you made a killing when the snow fall was way less then the average.

That you spent all of that profit without holding back enough for the years snow fall was above avwerage.

That your pricing is too low on seasonal contracts.

Again one can not butter both sides of the bread. So if you do not want to do seasonal pricing do not. If you want to seasonal price then you have to accept some years you will do well and some years you will just cover your bills. If the long term average profit is not there to make this worth while then you are not charging enough.

Every contractor has to walk away when the customer will not pay enough to make it worth while.


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## excav8ter (Oct 7, 2009)

I personally don't care for blizzards. They're fun to watch, but not much fun to plow in. We have not had a "blizzard" for 2 years, last one was about 23" and came in about 13-15 hours. I brought in a loader to help us out, and stack piles, as well as clear a path through the bigger drifts. Then the loader just pushed and stacked while we cleaned up around him.


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

32vld;1601649 said:


> This means that you are forgetting the years when you made a killing when the snow fall was way less then the average.
> 
> That you spent all of that profit without holding back enough for the years snow fall was above avwerage.
> 
> ...


I think you are assuming alot. I didn't read anywhere that said he under bid anything and couldnt afford to perform the work, he just stated the storm cost him an untold amount of money. I am almost all per push and I hate big storms. Do I make good money on them? Yes sir I do but I still hate big storms. I provide top quality service to all my customers during all storms. That being said a storm that drops 3"+ per hour for 10+ hours is almost impossible to keep up with unless you have a dedicated peice of equipment or 2 for each site. That wouldn't be a problem if we had storms like this on a regular basis but we dont. I make more money on a large storm than a small storm but to me the risk is not worth the reward. We have never lost a client do to poor performance which means we can handel whatever comes at us but I would rather (as I assume most others would) have a small event that we can clean up and salt off in just a few hours thus not slowing business down for the client whatsoever.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Never lost money yet [plowing. Each season stands on it owns.With me doing plowing/landscaping my seasons are split in 2. Each season carries the company during that time.Ex,truck payment,phone,insurance ,on and on.Kind of when you hear business reports, profits are down,didn't say anything about losing money.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Bossman 92;1601800 said:


> I think you are assuming alot. I didn't read anywhere that said he under bid anything and couldnt afford to perform the work, he just stated the storm cost him an untold amount of money. I am almost all per push and I hate big storms. Do I make good money on them? Yes sir I do but I still hate big storms. I provide top quality service to all my customers during all storms. That being said a storm that drops 3"+ per hour for 10+ hours is almost impossible to keep up with unless you have a dedicated peice of equipment or 2 for each site. That wouldn't be a problem if we had storms like this on a regular basis but we dont. I make more money on a large storm than a small storm but to me the risk is not worth the reward. We have never lost a client do to poor performance which means we can handel whatever comes at us but I would rather (as I assume most others would) have a small event that we can clean up and salt off in just a few hours thus not slowing business down for the client whatsoever.


"This blizzard cost me an untold amount of money.. Sure we picked up a weeks worth of 24 hr work for several machines stacking/relocating afterwards, but still doesn't justify it in my head."

"but still doesn't justify it" I could be wrong but it means to me that there was not enough profit.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I do seasonal with limits 
Ex 10 plows less than 10 inches more than 10 plows or 10 inches in one storm is extra


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

anyone know what he meant to say.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Who me sorry I have limits in my contracts insurance companies have limits in their contracts 
My contract includes 10 storms all under 10 inches for a set seasonal price 
If we get 10 inches or more in one storm it is billed outside of their normal contract and billed per inch 
So I don't lose money on seasonal contract when there is a lot of snowb
At the same time if we have more than 10 storm under 10 inches they get charged also 
I have found most only look at the price and don't compare apples to apples so over the years as prices have gotten cheaper I have lowered what is included in their seasonal contracts. My service has stayed top notch but the quantity has changed 
This was an answer to some one saying you can't have it both ways or the best of both worlds


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

A dusting in the morning + another in the evening + never drop the blade = 1 happy camper over here.

I think the wall was built on the wrong side of the country. It should lie between the US & Canada... since that's where all the cold air comes from.:realmad:


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

First post in over 10 days.Just finished last relocate job(i hope,phone ringing off the hook ).My accounts are in bridgeport.stratford,milford, orange, westhaven Ct.,ground zero,absolute nightmare,38",drifts who knows? I can write a book on this one.Going be a while til I recover physically,mentally,emotionally.I'm shot.Sleep deprivation is a nasty condition. But we did it!Only lost 2 jobs out of 27.My friend came down from danbury with his jd 544 and saved my ass.I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. Large lots virtually unplowable with trucks.Lost my voice friday still can't talk,no time to see doctor.I vote no to heavy snow,the 24",18",and 12" snowfalls of two years ago were a walk in the park compared to this one.Bedtime,finally


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

ponyboy;1602414 said:


> Who me sorry I have limits in my contracts insurance companies have limits in their contracts
> My contract includes 10 storms all under 10 inches for a set seasonal price
> If we get 10 inches or more in one storm it is billed outside of their normal contract and billed per inch
> So I don't lose money on seasonal contract when there is a lot of snowb
> ...


ok I get it now. didn't really understand it at first.

I don't do seasonal contracts or contracts of anything for that matter.

I charge per plow. invoiced at the end of each month. I don't loose a dime doing it this way.



coldcoffee;1602449 said:


> A dusting in the morning + another in the evening + never drop the blade = 1 happy camper over here.
> 
> I think the wall was built on the wrong side of the country. It should lie between the US & Canada... since that's where all the cold air comes from.:realmad:


not sure how you charge but I don't see how getting a little bit of snow but not enough to plow it makes you happy.

I wish for snow each and every year. while my business isn't dependent on it. I love the extra cash. I hate getting anything less than 2" because for me that's still no work. this season I have gotten to do a little salting on my first commercial lot but even then it's not always a guarentee I'll get to salt if we get snow under 2". they don't always have me salt and certainly not on the weekends when they are closed.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

yardguy28;1602627 said:


> ok I get it now. didn't really understand it at first.
> 
> I don't do seasonal contracts or contracts of anything for that matter.
> 
> ...


That's code for seasonal contract.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

grandview;1602899 said:


> That's code for seasonal contract.


I will second that motion!

....


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm not really aware of how everyone in my neck of the woods charges for snow removal but I think for the most part it would pretty hard to do a seasonal contract with anyone around here. 

people just don't want to pay for services they don't receive. if you plowed 10 times in a month they pay it but if you didn't plow at all that month they won't wanna pay a cent. and I don't blame them. I'd never hire a service to remove snow that's gonna charge me money whether they come or not. 

it's per plow or forget it.


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## oneoldsap (Dec 26, 2011)

If it would snow 4-8" , 5 or 6 times a month , I'd be happy , happy , happy . Just like Phil on Duck Dynasty ! Blizzards suck .


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

yardguy28;1603898 said:


> I'm not really aware of how everyone in my neck of the woods charges for snow removal but I think for the most part it would pretty hard to do a seasonal contract with anyone around here.
> 
> people just don't want to pay for services they don't receive. if you plowed 10 times in a month they pay it but if you didn't plow at all that month they won't wanna pay a cent. and I don't blame them. I'd never hire a service to remove snow that's gonna charge me money whether they come or not.
> 
> it's per plow or forget it.


So what state are you in that is classified?


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

yardguy28;1602627 said:


> .
> not sure how you charge but I don't see how getting a little bit of snow but not enough to plow it makes you happy.
> 
> I wish for snow each and every year. while my business isn't dependent on it. I love the extra cash. I hate getting anything less than 2" because for me that's still no work. this season I have gotten to do a little salting on my first commercial lot but even then it's not always a guarantee I'll get to salt if we get snow under 2". they don't always have me salt and certainly not on the weekends when they are closed.


If I were to map out a 10 mile radius around my location, I could break down the variations of conditions in each of those communities. The end of season totals or events would have significant extremes from the most active areas to the least. I no longer work at that sized scale of an area, but when I did, I knew some of my equipment & drivers would see more action than others...not an easy balancing act to keep everyone happy or loyal for that matter.

Each area, the expectations or requirements are going to differ somewhat based on those factors mentioned, generally speaking. To put it simple, the more snow an area is expected to receive, the more inclined those businesses are to want to lock into a seasonal price for plowing. The hardest hit areas, it's almost difficult to get a per push or per event rate.

Salt is generally an additional expense, at least for my business it is. Sand applications are almost unheard of around here (we have salt mines almost in the back yard), with the exception of when I worked for the Department of the Interior...feds are like that. If salt were taken from the equation I would no longer have an interest in this business. It's not how you slice the pie...it's how many pieces you end up with when it's all said and done.

Read the Ohio threads sometime. It's comprised mostly of guys from the south, who spend more time talking about it than actually doing it...it's quite comical sometimes.

So far we have worked almost every day this month, a solid 2 weeks in January & a solid 2 weeks in December. Every day so far has been profitable, some days more than others. On the days we don't work...we still get paid...just not as much. In 26 years of snow & ice control I have never had a plow season that wasn't profitable. I have friends/ associates that have snow as their only business & are living life quite large. I did the same for a few years back in the 90's, but now have other business interests. Taking the summer off is fun to a point, but gets old fast when most friends and family are working.


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## snowish10 (Oct 29, 2010)

how much do you charge for other plow companies or stupid people drive that get stuck to pull them out????


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

32vld;1601649 said:


> This means that you are forgetting the years when you made a killing when the snow fall was way less then the average.
> 
> That you spent all of that profit without holding back enough for the years snow fall was above avwerage.
> 
> ...


Yes, as another said, you are assuming A LOT.

I have system figured out that I will go as far as to call scientific to determine my season, vs. per service accounts, how that will balance out for any given amount of snowfall. Anyone who personally knows me, knows how much I rant about this. I literally build my own insurance program by doing this.

I developed a spreadsheet that lays out my season for any amount of snowfall scenarios, based on the actual accounts I have, to ensure I can retain a certain margin no matter the snowfall. I first know my fixed and overhead costs. That number is covered by seasonal contracts. Next, I know my operating costs to service 2" (my max. trigger amt) on every single lot, including the seasonal accounts I already mentioned. The additional overhead factored into the per push accounts, is designed to cover the operating costs of the seasonal accounts. While the fixed/overhead costs of the per service accounts are designed to already be covered by the seasonal accounts.

Then the spreadsheet has a chart, with a column for 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, inches etc all the way up to 250 inches. Through simple multiplication, it lays out my net profit, and COGS for all annual snowfall totals. For reference, I have it average the margins at the end of the whole thing.

Now where this stops becoming so scientific is with the variables that no one can control. This is things like call backs, employees not following our engineered site plans properly, damage to equipment or property, break time during long duration events, extremely rapid snowfall rates that don't allow us to hit all our per service every 2" on the mark (generating less revenue per inch), etc etc.. But I obviously need to take this into account somehow, so I call it "waste factor". Several seasons ago, before I had it this figured out, after the season was over I found that I had 23% waste factor that I did not account for, past my initial estimates. So Today, I factor i 30% waste factor into all my hourly rates for equipment, and man hours.

Another huge cost that most people don't think about is snow drifting. Again, impossible to be scientific about this, but I have found that I will add at least 5% additional waste in a given season dealing with drifting snow off the roof of seasonal accounts which require me to deal with this either way. This only happens sometimes, when the wind is right, but when it does we are plowing 6" of snow from a lot when it hasn't even snowed out for over a day. Or we will go out back a store, and have a 6' to 8' drift run 400 feet down the entire backside of a store. This then needs to be removed bucket by bucket. Thats sure not something I factor in to each bid when putting together a number..

Where the difficulty comes in is not about how much receivables are being generated, its all about when the customer sends the check! On time or 60 days late? It will show up eventually and all wil balance out, but the other bills don't wait in the meantime.

Its all about creating realistic metrics to measure your business performance by. Imagine playing a hockey game with no goal to shoot towards, everyone would just skate around till the clock ran out.

And as far as your comment about forgetting the below average years (like last year), I see the concept that your getting at, and I suppose on the l longer term average it could make some sense. But in reality, it makes no sense for myself personally. Last year, I had hardly any operating expenses, so as I'm sure anyone can guess I had a decent bank account come year end to say the least. Now do I leave this alone for year end, and let the government take almost half of it? And then use the other half to finance a heavy winter? How do I factor that tax into the "finance cost" of the heavy winter? I would prefer to budget smart so that every year works out like it should, instead of using averages over several years.. Now I'm also not saying that every year works out perfectly, and it never will. Its not like I was born knowing the snow industry inside and out. I learn something new literally every single day of my life, and nothing teaches us more than some type of failure, big or small. Failure is fuel in my tank! Its all about how we apply what we learn when moving forward.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

grandview;1604401 said:


> So what state are you in that is classified?


I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you......:laughing:


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

merrimacmill, that was very profound and well written, kudos

How many years did it take you to build your model?

Do you have some type of template that you can plug your numbers in?

I have shied away from seasonals because of the complexity and the uncertainty surrounding the bid process

My fear is that I would fail to consider all the variable as you mentioned and end up working at a loss

I always have that fear when I win a bid as "oh no, what did I leave on the table" 

so far no damage, knock on wood

I did p/u a commercial retail I am doing per push this year and I am far below what the PM said his avg was in years prior so maybe I need to re-visit my philosophy,or maybe he was getting robbed earlier

All in all very interesting info,thanks for taking the time to post


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