# Being used as a guinea pig



## spencers (Nov 14, 2014)

Need to vent and also need to know what others do if you can do anything about it:

I get phone calls/text/emails from business request a quote for snow removal. I go do the bid email them the bid and then never hear back. I usually follow up if I don't hear back and I've been getting replies that follow. "Thanks for the bid, but we decided to keep the guy that's been doing it for years." I asked them why they went out and go new bids and they proceeded to tell me that there original snow plow guy raised their price so they got other bids. They also told me that my bid was the cheapest and that the other guy matched it. This has been happening to me about 70% of my bids. They go out get a new bid and then they show mine to their original guy and then they just match it. Does anyone here charge for a bid? I feel like I should start charging for bids now so I know they are more serious.
Thoughts?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

It's happened...not that mulch, but it's happened. Not sure if there is a good answer.


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## spencers (Nov 14, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's happened...not that mulch, but it's happened. Not sure if there is a good answer.


see and if I had an old client of mine reach out to someone else and get bids and I would be like peace out, but money is money and money talks if you know what I mean.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

When I first started this happened a lot and I felt the same way you do. You get a feel for it after awhile. While I have never priced matched I have done some commercial properties for long stretches (15 + years) and then lost them to someone half the price. When they get happy with you sometimes the manager is required to get 3 bids anyway for the owners. When it works in your favor there's 2 other guys that just. Wasted their time bidding.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

welcome to business...

It has nothing to do with what you know... it is all about WHO you know.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> welcome to business...
> 
> It has nothing to do with what you know... it is all about WHO you know.


I keep telling them I know Buzz and Defcon...hasn't helped.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I keep telling them I know Buzz and Defcon...hasn't helped.


Maybe they think you are referring to the biblical sense...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I guess I should field this one a bit better than I did... 

When you are the young grasshopper to the party, you will have this done to you for years. After you get an established name, you have a reputation and quality repor, it will come back on the other side.

I have many general contractors that we have worked with for years that will give me what we call "last looks"

This is when I get a shot to review the low number and see if I can get there. The reason that these contractors do this is that they have a good working relationship with your company, like your staff, and they don't have issues. 

You never know what you are going to get out of a low ball and if you can get the guy that you know the quality to do it for the low number, you win.

Now, that being said, they way that you have to get in sometimes (at least in my line of work) with a new general is to do a small job a cost or a few percent, show them what you are made of, then the next one, your bid that is competitive is reviewed as a "possible contractor" not just a number shop.

But yes, there are many generals that we give numbers to on a daily basis that only use our number to beat down "their guy"

As I just said in another thread, if we get 10% of what we bid in a year we are doing well.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Maybe question the client a little more and find out why they are requesting a quote. Find out if they are unhappy with the guy they had or just price shopping.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I keep telling them I know Buzz and Defcon...hasn't helped.


They run me off the job if I bring up those names yelling about "Godzirrria" or something?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> Maybe they think you are referring to the biblical sense...


They're wrong...


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## spencers (Nov 14, 2014)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Maybe question the client a little more and find out why they are requesting a quote. Find out if they are unhappy with the guy they had or just price shopping.


Yeah most of them tell me they aren't happy with the company they are using because he doens't do a good enough job or he's not there in a timely manner. I agree with whats stated above as far as getting clients that like you ect. I have a lot of them. I was just trying to grown a little more this year and get some new clients but looks like it back fired on me. Seems like more and more smaller companies are showing up and doing lawn care and snow removal. Here in Utah people want the cheapest price and then when they go with the cheapest guy and he doesn't do a good job they complain. They will never get the fact that you get what you pay for.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I have learned how to spot the "price shoppers" with my normal everyday business, and even charge for bids occasionally, however, I haven't quite learned how to spot them in snow removal (commercial management seems to lie a little more than the homeowners and realtors I'm used to).

I've had this happen 3 times this year, out of maybe 10 bids. Luckily, giving a snow removal bid is much quicker than a building job. Just something we'll have to learn to spot, and not sweat if we miss it.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

spencers said:


> Yeah most of them tell me they aren't happy with the company they are using because he doens't do a good enough job or he's not there in a timely manner. I agree with whats stated above as far as getting clients that like you ect. I have a lot of them. I was just trying to grown a little more this year and get some new clients but looks like it back fired on me. Seems like more and more smaller companies are showing up and doing lawn care and snow removal. Here in Utah people want the cheapest price and then when they go with the cheapest guy and he doesn't do a good job they complain. They will never get the fact that you get what you pay for.


How many of those quotes you did were from referrals? What is your close percentage on quotes? What is the close percentage from referrals vs. cold callers? If you dont know, you should start tracking that. Referrals will always give you a much higher percentage of "quality" customers. Many times they come pre screened because the person who referred them has told them about how much you charge.

I do not advertise because if you do, you get a high percentage of price shoppers and tire kickers. You can still grow your business by using referrals alone. I am. And you deal with a lot less BS doing it this way. I also have a good network of subcontractors, and they are giving me as much or more new work at this point as customer referrals. I am honest with them and tell them not to send me any junk customers, only prime candidates. Once you get in with other established contractors and define what your target customer is, you better be ready for some work. It should work the same for landscape and snow con tractors, focus heavily on networking and you will get the growth you are looking for.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Philbilly2 said:


> They run me off the job if I bring up those names yelling about "Godzirrria" or Otis?


edit.....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

On a serious note, most potential customers look strictly at cost / price. This is were "soft skills" come in to play to seal the deal.
It's a lot like courting, you have to work the prospect to seal the deal and you should expect to be turned down a few times.
You mentioned seeing a 30% capture ratio per your post unless I miss understood it, which is actually pretty good.


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## bel-nor (Dec 10, 2009)

Man this brings back memories(and recent ones lol), provide a estimate that you will profit from and _keep moving_. Some companies call yearly and don't agree/sign or reply to estimates provided. These are the ones I advise there's a est. charge and a escrow payment for the preparation of a written est. Then_ keep moving_!

If they call during the season and a couple events have occurred, with whatever creative stories about other contractors, friends or relatives employ the same procedure above (_to the letter_). Commercial to me is easier to deal with because they have to provide service, and show some prevention has been provided for employees and customers.


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## spencers (Nov 14, 2014)

ktfbgb said:


> How many of those quotes you did were from referrals? What is your close percentage on quotes? What is the close percentage from referrals vs. cold callers? If you dont know, you should start tracking that. Referrals will always give you a much higher percentage of "quality" customers. Many times they come pre screened because the person who referred them has told them about how much you charge.
> 
> I do not advertise because if you do, you get a high percentage of price shoppers and tire kickers. You can still grow your business by using referrals alone. I am. And you deal with a lot less BS doing it this way. I also have a good network of subcontractors, and they are giving me as much or more new work at this point as customer referrals. I am honest with them and tell them not to send me any junk customers, only prime candidates. Once you get in with other established contractors and define what your target customer is, you better be ready for some work. It should work the same for landscape and snow con tractors, focus heavily on networking and you will get the growth you are looking for.


These are all coming from advertising with a company. I agree with the referrals though. We have grown no stop from Referrals but this year I was wanting to grow more for snow removal. I've landed 5 places out of probably 15 or so.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

spencers said:


> These are all coming from advertising with a company. I agree with the referrals though. We have grown no stop from Referrals but this year I was wanting to grow more for snow removal. I've landed 5 places out of probably 15 or so.


You should be happy with that. Typical new accounts from advertising is usually expected to be 10%. You are at 30%


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## FourDiamond (Nov 23, 2011)

My favorite is when they spend 20 minutes bad mouthing the current vendor, only to tell you that your bid was about the same as the current vendor. "So, we will stay with the current one."


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## duramax plow (Aug 31, 2015)

I tell clients, when it's later in the game., November ish., I'm near my max capacity for clients, any my cost will be at a premium to do your lot. I probably will be one of your higher bidders., because we provide premium service that our clients like. 
I make sure I'm not the lowest bidder., You want my quality service, you pay for it. Your side walks get 100% treated salt, magnesium/calcium blend out the bag. 
And your lot gets Bulk rock salt, No Sand. Curb lines are clear etc. 

You don't want to price match or deal with CHEAP clients., those are indicators that the client likes to have an issue with the bill and hold the money.

This is my mindset at least. We are here to make a profit, not a friend.


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## Jacobmb (Dec 3, 2013)

One question I use to feel out the client is: What was it about the previous contractor that failed to meet your expectation? 

Use this to weed out cheap, unrealistic or picky clients immediately.

Let them respond about poor quality service - ask them how much they were paying. 

Let them respond about price was too high - ask them how much service they are willing to sacrifice to do the job correctly.

We can do things fast, good and cheap but you can only pick 2. If you want it to be cheap and fast it won't be good. If you want it good and fast it won't be cheap. If you want it cheap and good it won't be fast.

I had a commercial client unhappy with performance of previous company sign up a couple days ago and they told me what they were paying. I told them my price which was nearly double. I also offered to come down in price to service the lot only with no time guarantee and 2 inch trigger (unheard of for commercial around here) and they agreed to take responsibility for all walks and shoveling so I closed them.... Next year, after selling them on the quality of my workmanship and they know already my price it is likely they will upgrade to having me take care of everything and establish a long relationship based on quality and professional service.

You have to decide how busy you are and if you have room for more work. Also, if you have room for cheap clients. I've had numerous clients call me late in the season and my price doesn't change. You snooze you lose. The reason these people are price shopping is because they havnt found a professional yet, or they don't have money. Either way, stay focused on getting bids out and servicing your existing client base to the best of your ability. Your company will grow with less stress chasing after cheap clients that only prefer finding the cheapest service out there.

Gl


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

There's been a couple post the eludes to holding your ground when it comes to pricing and service. I have no idea of what drives this thought other than possibly the geographical location.
I can agree with there thought process to an extend however there needs to be a subjective amount latitude when trying to build a customer/client base. As a contractor you need to evaluate the potential income along with the future income from referrals by landing customers.
When people have services quoted/bid the first thing they look at is the bottom line cost and the glaze over the scope / type of service that drives the cost. I've found the best way to approach a bid/quote is to fully understand what the potential customer/client is looking for, if they don't know this is why salesmanship/soft skills come into play.
When you submit the bid/quote you need to make sure the scope of service it clearly spelled oot. If the potential customer / client isn't sure of what's needed they rely on you the professional to help them understand the options to meet there needs.
At the end of day signing on a customer/client is easy, retaining the customer/client is were the work is, there's a saying, "its all talk till when the rubber it's the road" comes into play.
There's been several web/app based company's that offer "on demand' services for snow removal and grounds care/mowing. These web/app based company's in my mind are ruining the industry, they've basically "oot sourced" our services to a service provider that is willing to take a job at a reduced rate just to be I business, or lowballer. These web/app based company's are the same as NSP's but serving the home owner. 
Once signed I have never lost a customer due to my pricing or service (resi or commercial), I've never been challenged when I've passed along an increase, I have landed more business from referrals than cold calls.
Building a business to me is building your customers/clients trust, once you've done this it pays dividends in the long run.
My approach may only be applicable in my area but it works.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> There's been a couple post the eludes to holding your ground when it comes to pricing and service. I have no idea of what drives this thought other than possibly the geographical location.
> I can agree with there thought process to an extend however there needs to be a subjective amount latitude when trying to build a customer/client base. As a contractor you need to evaluate the potential income along with the future income from referrals by landing customers.
> When people have services quoted/bid the first thing they look at is the bottom line cost and the glaze over the scope / type of service that drives the cost. I've found the best way to approach a bid/quote is to fully understand what the potential customer/client is looking for, if they don't know this is why salesmanship/soft skills come into play.
> When you submit the bid/quote you need to make sure the scope of service it clearly spelled oot. If the potential customer / client isn't sure of what's needed they rely on you the professional to help them understand the options to meet there needs.
> ...


Completely applicable in my area.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

ktfbgb said:


> Completely applicable in my area.


We're also in less populated areas where there's less contractors competing for work and customers seem to by more loyal than price driven.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

BUFF said:


> There's been a couple post the eludes to holding your ground when it comes to pricing and service. I have no idea of what drives this thought other than possibly the geographical location.
> I can agree with there thought process to an extend however there needs to be a subjective amount latitude when trying to build a customer/client base. As a contractor you need to evaluate the potential income along with the future income from referrals by landing customers.
> When people have services quoted/bid the first thing they look at is the bottom line cost and the glaze over the scope / type of service that drives the cost. I've found the best way to approach a bid/quote is to fully understand what the potential customer/client is looking for, if they don't know this is why salesmanship/soft skills come into play.
> When you submit the bid/quote you need to make sure the scope of service it clearly spelled oot. If the potential customer / client isn't sure of what's needed they rely on you the professional to help them understand the options to meet there needs.
> ...


This was day 1 of Buff's 5 day seminar on client acusition and retainage...

and you just got it for free!!!


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> We're also in less populated areas where there's less contractors competing for work and customers seem to by more loyal than price driven.


Also True.


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## Jacobmb (Dec 3, 2013)

Buff hit the nail on the head here.

You MUST be able to determine what the clients needs are to justify the service and cost. Maybe they don't know what quality service is because they have had piss poor contractors before. It is up to you to educate the consumer about what professional service entails and explain the associated costs. If they don't require that level of service you can identify their exposure to liability but you certainly don't have to walk away. You can offer a reduced service and reduced price and try to get the gig! It all depends on how full you are and how badly you want it.

Gl


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Philbilly2 said:


> This was day 1 of Buff's 5 day seminar on client acusition and retainage...
> 
> and you just got it for free!!!


Just a teaser to set the hook to real them in.....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Jacobmb said:


> Buff hit the nail on the head here.
> 
> You MUST be able to determine what the clients needs are to justify the service and cost. Maybe they don't know what quality service is because they have had piss poor contractors before. It is up to you to educate the consumer about what professional service entails and explain the associated costs. If they don't require that level of service you can identify their exposure to liability but you certainly don't have to walk away. You can offer a reduced service and reduced price and try to get the gig! It all depends on how full you are and how badly you want it.
> 
> Gl


Everyone (contractor or customer/client) has a threshold of pain they're willing to deal with. I've walked away from plenty of work over the years due to not feeling comfortable with what's being ask of me or the customer/client gave me a bad vibe or were just morons and would never be happy. With the many forums of social media and online review portals contractors are subject to being drawn and quarter by someone that feels they've been taken advantage of in some form by the contractor.
When I talk to a prospective customer/client about the work they're looking to have done I'm also interviewing them too.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

BUFF said:


> Just a teaser to set the hook to real them in.....


Still and always will be Busy...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> This was day 1 of Buff's 5 day seminar on client acusition and retainage...
> 
> and you just got it for free!!!


Oh boy......more clearance lights on the helmutt.


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