# Another Salt on Concrete Q????????



## Lawn Care Plus

Ok, here is another question for you all.

Have you ever seen water softener salt, large grainular size literally cause 3-5" chunks of top layer to flake completely off of the concrete??

If not what would cause such a thing. I have never seen this before in my life and the owner is claiming that I (the salt) am the cause?

Tim


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## REAPER

I do not know anyone that uses that type of salt myself. 

That type of salt is compressed product. Sitting on the pavement dissolving I can see leaving a ring of about 6 inch in diameter per pellet. 

Is it all over the drive?
Is there any residue left on the broken pieces?
Is it all over the drive in spotted areas like salt would have been spread?
How old is the concrete? 

That is a pretty harsh salt for concrete I suppose it could happen. Any of his neighbors have the same problem? 
Sometimes when the development is built they will do a bunch of drives on the same day when building the houses and if it is normal wear maybe a few of the houses around have the same thing. If not get ready for a claim for re-surfacing.


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## Mark Oomkes

Crappy concrete. Water softener salt is the same salt as rock salt, just different size granules and maybe more dirt in the rock salt, other than that it's all NaCl. 

Not sure what compressed product means?? It comes out of the salt mine the same way, they don't turn it into brine and then turn it back into a solid and compress it. 

The salt 'caused' it because of freeze\thaw, but not because the salt actually harms concrete. They had crappy concrete installed, it'll be up to what your contract states as who pays for it.


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## jbrow1

How old is the concrete?


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## Lawn Care Plus

I don't know how old the concrete is. there are spots where nothing happened and spots where it did. I also want to go back and see if there are spots where the concrete was cracking just under ice with no salt. This is the only site that this is happening on. I have 14 total sites that I service. You cannot even tell that anything was put down accept the drying marks.

The thing is, Ice melt has salt in it also, so anything that would or could be put down would have done this.

And, I don't think that one or two app's would do it alone. But I think it is definetely a bad concrete job. I am trying to get ahold of a concrete guy that I know and have him take a look at it.

This guy is going to try to get me to pay to have this drive and walk redone, so I need all of the ammo I can get my hands on.

Tim


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## MrBigStuff

*Spalling etc*

Check this out- http://www.askthebuilder.com/B161_Concrete_Scaling_and_Deicing_Salts.shtml


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## brockh

FACT= water softener salt tablets WILL cause divits in concrete. It doesn't matter if the concrete is new, old, or in between its going to divit. The reason that the smaller grainular stuff doesn't mess up concrete is 1 the grain size itself is small so there is little to no divit left behind 2 it disolves quickly and salt dust is usually left behind. The large tablets don't disolve and disapate letting them settle directly on the concrete itself and salt is concrete's kryptonite. we had someone use the same stuff on fairly new concrete and it ruined what was a nice smooth concrete helipad


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## REAPER

Mark Oomkes;382766 said:


> Crappy concrete. Water softener salt is the same salt as rock salt, just different size granules and maybe more dirt in the rock salt, other than that it's all NaCl.
> 
> Not sure what compressed product means?? It comes out of the salt mine the same way, they don't turn it into brine and then turn it back into a solid and compress it.
> 
> The salt 'caused' it because of freeze\thaw, but not because the salt actually harms concrete. They had crappy concrete installed, it'll be up to what your contract states as who pays for it.


 I have watched a show on TLC about salt. Most salt for water conditioners is a compressed pellet.

Maybe you buy some really cheap stuff for yours but from what I have understood about salt specifically for water conditioners is what I said.


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## Mark Oomkes

brockh;382874 said:


> FACT= water softener salt tablets WILL cause divits in concrete. It doesn't matter if the concrete is new, old, or in between its going to divit. The reason that the smaller grainular stuff doesn't mess up concrete is 1 the grain size itself is small so there is little to no divit left behind 2 it disolves quickly and salt dust is usually left behind. The large tablets don't disolve and disapate letting them settle directly on the concrete itself and salt is concrete's kryptonite. we had someone use the same stuff on fairly new concrete and it ruined what was a nice smooth concrete helipad


Care to back this 'FACT' up with some research? Like I said, bulk rock salt is NaCl, water softener salt is NaCl. Salt does not physically attack\harm concrete. FACT. The freeze\thaw\refreeze cycle is what causes damage on either poor quality or newer concrete.


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## 1sthippy

*Samples*

LCP, Try and get a piece or two of the broken concrete. If this was from a bad batch and you have it tested, it might be your ace card to cover yourself. PM me if you would like more info. Hippy.


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## Lawn Care Plus

Mark Oomkes;382918 said:


> Care to back this 'FACT' up with some research? Like I said, bulk rock salt is NaCl, water softener salt is NaCl. Salt does not physically attack\harm concrete. FACT. The freeze\thaw\refreeze cycle is what causes damage on either poor quality or newer concrete.


I would think that if it is the freeze-thaw-refreeze cycle that causes issues, and it makes sense, ei tar roofs for the example=same thing, then ice melt would do the same thing and even worse, since they have the actual heat-up reaction element involved.

Tim


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## brockh

Mark Oomkes;382918 said:


> Care to back this 'FACT' up with some research? Like I said, bulk rock salt is NaCl, water softener salt is NaCl. Salt does not physically attack\harm concrete. FACT. The freeze\thaw\refreeze cycle is what causes damage on either poor quality or newer concrete.


funny how it divits where the salt tablets STILL WERE....but i guess it could have been coincidence(right) its been prooven time and time again salt DOES affect concrete....consult a real concrete expert maybe he could set ya straight...ask him if he throws an excessive amount of salt on his sidewalks


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## Lawn Care Plus

brockh;383131 said:


> funny how it divits where the salt tablets STILL WERE....but i guess it could have been coincidence(right) its been prooven time and time again salt DOES affect concrete....consult a real concrete expert maybe he could set ya straight...ask him if he throws an excessive amount of salt on his sidewalks


Divits is one thing, but scabbing of layers is quite another.

I have seen a side walk with 30+ years of salt with "Divits" but never pealing of the top layer.

Tim


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## GTMS

Mark Oomkes;382766 said:


> Crappy concrete. The salt 'caused' it because of freeze\thaw, but not because the salt actually harms concrete. They had crappy concrete installed, it'll be up to what your contract states as who pays for it.


First of all let me say that I am NOT trying to start anything. I think anyone who has been doing this long enough, knows better than to use salt on concrete, (Sorry Tim, not insulting you buddy) and all of us have seen the damage caused by salt popping the cream off the top of concrete down to the aggregate. There is no denying it. The application of salt on concrete will damage the concrete regardless of by what mechanism it achieves such damage. And the guy that wrote this article should be in politics. In one paragraph he states the above quote and in the next he says,
"_Concrete Spalling Comparison Study

The National Research Council's Strategic Highway Research Program tested deicing salts to see how they would etch and destroy concrete. The tests were interesting. It appears that magnesium chloride did the least amount of damage. Calcium chloride caused 26 times more damage to the concrete than magnesium chloride. Regular rock salt, sodium chloride, caused an astonishing 63 times more damage. If the tests were accurate, it appears that it may be worth the extra money to purchase and use magnesium chloride. _

Tim, why don't you post a few pics of you problem for us to view.
Jason


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## Mark Oomkes

brockh;383131 said:


> funny how it divits where the salt tablets STILL WERE....but i guess it could have been coincidence(right) its been prooven time and time again salt DOES affect concrete....consult a real concrete expert maybe he could set ya straight...ask him if he throws an excessive amount of salt on his sidewalks


I have a salt storage bin made out of 'mafia' blocks. Salt has been stored against these blocks for over 8 years now. None are flaking, none are spalling, none are showing divits. Never has any freeze\thaw cycles either.



GTMS;383310 said:


> First of all let me say that I am NOT trying to start anything. I think anyone who has been doing this long enough, knows better than to use salt on concrete, (Sorry Tim, not insulting you buddy) and all of us have seen the damage caused by salt popping the cream off the top of concrete down to the aggregate. There is no denying it. The application of salt on concrete will damage the concrete regardless of by what mechanism it achieves such damage. And the guy that wrote this article should be in politics. In one paragraph he states the above quote and in the next he says,
> "_Concrete Spalling Comparison Study
> 
> The National Research Council's Strategic Highway Research Program tested deicing salts to see how they would etch and destroy concrete. The tests were interesting. It appears that magnesium chloride did the least amount of damage. Calcium chloride caused 26 times more damage to the concrete than magnesium chloride. Regular rock salt, sodium chloride, caused an astonishing 63 times more damage. If the tests were accurate, it appears that it may be worth the extra money to purchase and use magnesium chloride. _
> 
> Tim, why don't you post a few pics of you problem for us to view.
> Jason


Guess I don't know much. Been in the business for 20+ years, and we apply salt to concrete everytime it snows. Loading docks, pads poured in front of loading docks, heck we have a customer that has a couple acres of concrete for outside storage that we apply salt to everytime it snows. No damage, no spalling, no divits, no problems.

If calcium is so harmful to concrete, why do they mix CaCl with concrete to help it cure in the winter?

Properly prepared and cured concrete will not be damaged by salt. Fact. If you are having problems with this, either the concrete was crap and\or the installer didn't\doesn't know what he is doing.


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## Lawn Care Plus

Ok, Here come a slew of photos that I have taken and resized.

The square insets is an area that there was no salt, only ice and snow but the same effect as where there was salt.

There is a shot of where I left salt after I swept the slab, and the salt is still there with no effect.

There is are shots of sidewalks with salt and no effects except stains.

Let me know what you all think.

Thank you very much everyone.

Photos of the problem first.

Tim


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## Lawn Care Plus

More problem photos. The first photo here I adjusted as it was washed out. The color is not the color of the cement as seen by the human eye in the daylight.

Tim


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## Lawn Care Plus

Here are more problem photos.

Tim


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## Lawn Care Plus

Here are photos where the same thing is happening to the slab, but there was no salt in the area.

One friend said that the salt would leech, but I am not sure if it does how far the effect would go. I think that the salt stains would indicate how far it would leech and have effect, but I could be wrong.

Tim


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## Lawn Care Plus

Here are photos of sidewalk with salt but not the problems.

Tim


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## Mark Oomkes

Pretty safe bet that he was going to have problems without salt. That is some sad looking concrete. Looks like the top layer could have been peeled off with a pressure washer. 

Get someone who knows concrete--like the plant that mixes it--in your area and have an expert take a look at it. Looks like it came out of a bag and was mixed in a wheelbarrow.


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## magnatrac

Wow that cement sure is messed up. I can't say weather it's from salt or not. I do a condo development and the first to years they had us use pella dow on cement that was only months old. ( they were warned of possible damage ) We used this for 2 years untill they thought it was killing thier plants. Now we use landscapers choice with no problems on the plants or cement. My point is that we were putting the worst stuff on brand new cement and it never failed like in your photos. Some of the cement in the development was only weeks old before winter started and it didn't fail. I think it must be a bad cement job. Good luck !!!


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## Lawn Care Plus

Here is one more shot of the problem issue.

Then a wide shot.

Then the last three are shots of where I have left salt for days on the same slab with no effect whatsoever.

Tim


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## Lawn Care Plus

Here are the last of where I left salt for a few days with no problems.

Tim


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## Lawn Care Plus

Mark Oomkes;383426 said:


> Pretty safe bet that he was going to have problems without salt. That is some sad looking concrete. Looks like the top layer could have been peeled off with a pressure washer.
> 
> Get someone who knows concrete--like the plant that mixes it--in your area and have an expert take a look at it. Looks like it came out of a bag and was mixed in a wheelbarrow.


It is funny (interesting) that you mentioned the cement being mixed by hand and wheelborrowed in, because I had a contractor there Saturday morning, and he said virtually the same thing.

He said that they must have wheel borrowed it in, and it set too fast for them to finish it, or they had too much chloride in the cement and it set too fast on them. So they did the front side walk, got to it in time and left the slab.

Tim


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## Mark Oomkes

Lawn Care Plus;383430 said:


> It is funny (interesting) that you mentioned the cement being mixed by hand and wheelborrowed in, because I had a contractor there Saturday morning, and he said virtually the same thing.
> 
> He said that they must have wheel borrowed it in, and it set too fast for them to finish it, or they had too much chloride in the cement and it set too fast on them. So they did the front side walk, got to it in time and left the slab.
> 
> Tim


Dang, I'm smart and didn't even know it. J\K


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## REAPER

When I was a concrete saw man I saw concrete divot like that.

The plant blamed it on the mix saying it had to much ash in it or some stuff. It was for road use and was tined and sprayed with cure but it looked the same as the concrete in those photos once it started popping.

I would most certainly say that is a poor batch of mix and he is trying to get you to pay for it now that I have seen the pictures.


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## Mark Oomkes

Reaper, I think I may have figured out what you are referring to with the compressed salt. Are you talking about the big blocks of salt that you put in a softener? It'd be a real PITA to spread that except for maybe through a chipper. 

IF so, yeah, that's compressed, but the other stuff is virtually the same as bagged salt bought for de-icing.


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## Mark Oomkes

GTMS;383310 said:


> First of all let me say that I am NOT trying to start anything. I think anyone who has been doing this long enough, knows better than to use salt on concrete, (Sorry Tim, not insulting you buddy) and all of us have seen the damage caused by salt popping the cream off the top of concrete down to the aggregate. There is no denying it. The application of salt on concrete will damage the concrete regardless of by what mechanism it achieves such damage. And the guy that wrote this article should be in politics. In one paragraph he states the above quote and in the next he says,
> "_Concrete Spalling Comparison Study
> 
> The National Research Council's Strategic Highway Research Program tested deicing salts to see how they would etch and destroy concrete. The tests were interesting. It appears that magnesium chloride did the least amount of damage. Calcium chloride caused 26 times more damage to the concrete than magnesium chloride. Regular rock salt, sodium chloride, caused an astonishing 63 times more damage. If the tests were accurate, it appears that it may be worth the extra money to purchase and use magnesium chloride. _
> 
> Tim, why don't you post a few pics of you problem for us to view.
> Jason


_Let's set the record straight. Deicing salts will NOT harm concrete that is made correctly, placed correctly, and finished properly._

Above quote from the askabuilder website referenced above.

Next paragraph quotes what you quoted above.

Wouldn't hundreds if not thousands of miles of roadways be falling apart yearly if salt really damaged concrete? Because there aren't very many municipalities that never use salt and there are a heck of a lot of roads\highways and bridges that are made of concrete.

Here's more reading for you if you are interested, the first is from the Salt Institute:

http://www.saltinstitute.org/rss/saltsensibility/2007/01/deicing_chemicals_and_pavement.html

http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/9000/9500/9557/Lee.pdf

The last is from an indpendent study. To sum it up, since I'm too computer illiterate to C&P from a .pdf: Sodium chloride solutions were the least deleterious to concrete under our experimental conditions.

For those of you who don't know what deleterious means, it means damaging or harmful.


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## Mark Oomkes

Here's even more reading if you desire to find out even more about how salt DOES NOT CHEMICALLY ATTACK CONCRETE. In case you care.

http://www.dow.com/PublishedLiterat...cium/pdfs/noreg/173-01707.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

http://dow-gco.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...nMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1

http://www.cement.org/tech/faq_deicers.asp

SnoFarmer, I went back to large type because of the excellent point about color blind people. Wouldn't want to discriminate. Thank you for pointing out one of my few shortcomings.

If you all would like, I can continue to find more or you could perhaps try an internet search of your own.

Based on a little research above, I would have to say in my uneducated opinion, the guy had crappy concrete as I stated in my first post in this thread.


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## SnowMelt2006

Mark,

Very nice................


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## Lawnscape89

Mark Oomkes;383462 said:


> For those of you who don't know what *deleterious* means, it means damaging or harmful.


Thanks for defining that word. I have never heard it before and thought it was a typo.

Now, I've learned something today and can veg out for the rest of it. 

BTW: That is some sad looking "concrete" that was damaged. I've been doing miles of sidewalks for years (15+) and only had one problem. It was a recently built group of condos that had the concrete "pop" in a few sections. Apparently, as has been stated, the concrete wasn't allowed to cure properly and the aggregrate was too close to the "top", causing it too "pop". JMO.

Other than that, never a problem.


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## Mark Oomkes

Lawnscape89;383613 said:


> Thanks for defining that word. I have never heard it before and thought it was a typo.
> 
> Now, I've learned something today and can veg out for the rest of it.
> 
> BTW: That is some sad looking "concrete" that was damaged. I've been doing miles of sidewalks for years (15+) and only had one problem. It was a recently built group of condos that had the concrete "pop" in a few sections. Apparently, as has been stated, the concrete wasn't allowed to cure properly and the aggregrate was too close to the "top", causing it too "pop". JMO.
> 
> Other than that, never a problem.


You're welcome, although it wasn't directed to you. More towards those who were mistaken about salt chemically damaging concrete. 

I think there's a little bit more than just a curing problem there, but I'm no expert.

I see there have been a few more views to this thread, but no more comments. Guess we answered the question.


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## REAPER

When I saw that type of "popping" of concrete the bad batch was found to have clumps of lime that allowed it to "pop like that. The divots looked the exact same as in those pictures.


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## MrBigStuff

*Popping*

Usually due to chirt in the mix. These small "stones" (often limestone) absorb moisture and expand when they freeze causing the thin layer of cement above to pop loose. You can buy concrete mix specific for driveways that has low chirt content. Perhaps this guy bought the cheapest mix he could find.

I've also seen plenty of jobs done incorrectly (too much water, too much working of the mix) where the whole top "cream" layer begins to flake off.


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## MDSP

When I bought my house the cement pad at the bottom of the steps "looked" alright. After one winter of salt apps. it pitted and chipped and flaked ALOT worse than your pics. I happen to know the guy who sold me the house, the concrete was cheap and hand mixed. My driveway on the other hand was professionally pored. NO problems there.

Looks to me as if cheap concrete is my problem. Yours too????


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## GTMS

Mark Oomkes;383462 said:


> _Let's set the record straight. Deicing salts will NOT harm concrete that is made correctly, placed correctly, and finished properly._
> 
> MARK,
> My apologies dear sir, My first comment was that I was not trying to start anything. Take a pill man. I simply stated my OPINION and a small quote to back it up. I have had several phone conversations with Tim and went to my friend at TBH CONCRETE and got him literature from the concrete company that he could use to defend himself with, it showed improper concrete pouring and finishing techniques and the results that he was experiencing. I took time out of my business to do this, and mailed the results to Tim. So please, take some deep breaths and relax, it's really not worth getting your blood pressure up. Besides, laughter makes you live longer!


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## Lawn Care Plus

GTMS;385437 said:


> Mark Oomkes;383462 said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Let's set the record straight. Deicing salts will NOT harm concrete that is made correctly, placed correctly, and finished properly._
> 
> MARK,
> My apologies dear sir, My first comment was that I was not trying to start anything. Take a pill man. I simply stated my OPINION and a small quote to back it up. I have had several phone conversations with Tim and went to my friend at TBH CONCRETE and got him literature from the concrete company that he could use to defend himself with, it showed improper concrete pouring and finishing techniques and the results that he was experiencing. I took time out of my business to do this, and mailed the results to Tim. So please, take some deep breaths and relax, it's really not worth getting your blood pressure up. Besides, laughter makes you live longer!
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed you Did Jason, and I thank you very much.
> 
> Thank you everyone for all of your responses here. I certainly do appreciate it.
> 
> Tim
Click to expand...


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## Mark Oomkes

GTMS;383310 said:


> First of all let me say that I am NOT trying to start anything.* I think anyone who has been doing this long enough, knows better than to use salt on concrete,* (Sorry Tim, not insulting you buddy) and all of us have seen the damage caused by salt popping the cream off the top of concrete down to the aggregate.* There is no denying it. The application of salt on concrete will damage the concrete regardless of by what mechanism it achieves such damage.* And the guy that wrote this article should be in politics. In one paragraph he states the above quote and in the next he says,
> "_Concrete Spalling Comparison Study
> 
> The National Research Council's Strategic Highway Research Program tested deicing salts to see how they would etch and destroy concrete. The tests were interesting. It appears that magnesium chloride did the least amount of damage. Calcium chloride caused 26 times more damage to the concrete than magnesium chloride. Regular rock salt, sodium chloride, caused an astonishing 63 times more damage. If the tests were accurate, it appears that it may be worth the extra money to purchase and use magnesium chloride. _
> 
> Tim, why don't you post a few pics of you problem for us to view.
> Jason





GTMS;385437 said:


> Mark Oomkes;383462 said:
> 
> 
> 
> _Let's set the record straight. Deicing salts will NOT harm concrete that is made correctly, placed correctly, and finished properly._
> 
> MARK,
> My apologies dear sir, My first comment was that I was not trying to start anything. Take a pill man. I simply stated my OPINION and a small quote to back it up. I have had several phone conversations with Tim and went to my friend at TBH CONCRETE and got him literature from the concrete company that he could use to defend himself with, it showed improper concrete pouring and finishing techniques and the results that he was experiencing. I took time out of my business to do this, and mailed the results to Tim. So please, take some deep breaths and relax, it's really not worth getting your blood pressure up. Besides, laughter makes you live longer!
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite relaxed, however, what does bother me and get me concerned is when someone gives their OPINION and it is WRONG.
> 
> You state that anyone that has been doing this long enough should know better than to apply salt to concrete. I say BS, because I\we have been doing this very thing for over 20 years on properly installed\cured concrete with no issues. Is 20 years not long enough? Maybe you could define "long enough" for me?
> 
> You are giving anybody--including a lot of newbies--info that is flat out wrong. What happens when one of these newbies goes to a new customer and does his sales spiel, including in it that despite the what the previous contractor has been doing for 20 years (we'll use me for an example) is wrong and going to ruin the customer's 25 year old concrete? He's going to look like a complete, uneducated, unprofessional idiot. Because he read your opinion. My opinion is Chevy's suck. However, there are thousands of snow and ice managers out there that are using Chevy's and they are working just fine for them. OPINIONS are not FACTS and if you state YOUR OPINION, then you might want to tell them that it is YOUR OPINION.
> 
> If you take some more time out of your busy day, as I did, and read through the rest of the links I provided, you will also find out that there are other studies performed by the Portland Cement Assoc. that are showing the study you quoted to be totally erroneous. That mag chloride is more harmful than sodium. THis was based on a county in Indiana that switched to mag and had issues. On top of these studies, if you take a look at the most used de-icing chemical in the world--sodium chloride--and the surfaces it is used on--asphalt and concrete--and the results, it is very obvious that your OPINION is wrong.
> 
> The reason it may sound like my BP is up is stated above, when misinformation is given or opinions stated as fact is not identified as opinions. The reason behind PS is to educate and raise the level of professionalism of the snow and ice management industry. When wrong information is given, it does just the opposite. I have learned volumes from other members here at PS and other forums and I am just trying to do as the original founder of Hall of Forums, then LS then PS did and used as his motto "Pay it Forward".
Click to expand...


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## SnowMelt2006

Well.......................................... 

I miss the popcorn icon.


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## Mark Oomkes

It does make one wonder why, sometimes.


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## GTMS

I have my wash basin and I am prepared to cleanse and kiss the feet of the all knowing plow god. I am man enough to to admit when I am wrong. Problem is, for everyone of your "correct" informational post that you have taken time out of your busy day to research for all of us neophytes, there is a rebuttal stating exactly the opposite. I bow down to your twenty plus years of experience! Which by the way, since your thirty six years old you must have been a child entrepreneur. Yes sir, You've certainly got me there with all your years of experience...I have truly had my own business for nineteen years now. And by the way, the quote came from your "correct" information link.
It is not my intention to engage in a personal P*ssing contest with you. I am certain whatever I say could never match your Devinne Wisdom. I deal with people with your type explosive personality everyday. And I find that my peace of mind and personal happiness are more important to me than engaging in hostile verbiage with individuals such as yourself. Now, if you would like to rationally discuss something without the attitude sometime in the future we MAY be able to engage in an educational dialogue. But not at this time. I apologize to all of you who had to deal with this without cause.xysport


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## Mark Oomkes

LT, no pissing match, but 99% of your post is a personal attack, whether on my age or what you assume my character to be, explosive, I believe you called it? 

FYI, if you don't have your birthday filled out in the User CP, your age will not be updated. So I could be much older now, but if it makes you feel better, I'm 38.


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## Mark Oomkes

Now that we have that out of the way, care to discuss facts about concrete and salt damage? No reason we can't have a great discussion started on this. You say there are rebuttals, well let's have them and start discussing them. As I stated, I am here to learn just as (I hope) everyone else is, so if you have info stating differently, let's have it.


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## customers_snow

Quite the dialogue going back and forth here. I have been reading these posts with much interest as people have gone back and forth. What interests me most, and also concerns me most, is the number of people who will respond to a post as though they were an authority on a particular subject. There is much to learn on this site but sifting through all the B.S. can be a nightmare at times. It would be much better if everyone would refrain from answering people's requests for information unless they were 100% accurate or if the original post was of a curious nature or simply looking for an opinion. If someone feels that they should answer without 100% accuracy, they should label their response as an opinion.


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## Mark Oomkes

Thanks Mike, you said it sooooo much more diplomatically than I did. 

One of my many faults.


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## Mike_PS

customers_snow;385917 said:


> Quite the dialogue going back and forth here. I have been reading these posts with much interest as people have gone back and forth. What interests me most, and also concerns me most, is the number of people who will respond to a post as though they were an authority on a particular subject. There is much to learn on this site but sifting through all the B.S. can be a nightmare at times. It would be much better if everyone would refrain from answering people's requests for information unless they were 100% accurate or if the original post was of a curious nature or simply looking for an opinion. If someone feels that they should answer without 100% accuracy, they should label their response as an opinion.


nice post Mike and I agree...to a point. This forum is for people to voice their opinions, concerns, etc and everything that is stated doesn't have to be taken as FACT. I believe the better thing to do, rather than getting into a personal attack or big blow-out with another member, is to state your opinion, or facts in some cases, and move on.

No need to turn a discussion, or simple opinion, into something it is not.

Thanks,
Mike


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## SnoFarmer

customers_snow;385917 said:


> Quite the dialogue going back and forth here. I have been reading these posts with much interest as people have gone back and forth. What interests me most, and also concerns me most, is the number of people who will respond to a post as though they were an authority on a particular subject. There is much to learn on this site but sifting through all the B.S. can be a nightmare at times. It would be much better if everyone would refrain from answering people's requests for information unless they were 100% accurate or if the original post was of a curious nature or simply looking for an opinion. If someone feels that they should answer without 100% accuracy, they should label their response as an opinion.


The dialog is people exchanging ideas, thoughts, opinions and facts some call it a *discussion*.

Lets take your post for example, it has nothing to do with the subject or a comment or anything said or implied. It's called Hijacking/trolling

Now, back to the sidewalk. I think but I'm not 100% sure but I think that, that concrete would have crumbled like that even with OUT the use of a ice melting chemical.

Where do I get my knowledge from. I helped a friend who builds house foundations and slabs for a summer.


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer;386090 said:


> The dialog is people exchanging ideas, thoughts, opinions and facts some call it a *discussion*.
> 
> Lets take your post for example, it has nothing to do with the subject or a comment or anything said or implied. It's called Hijacking/trolling
> 
> Now, back to the sidewalk. I think but I'm not 100% sure but I think that, that concrete would have crumbled like that even with OUT the use of a ice melting chemical.
> 
> Where do I get my knowledge from. I helped a friend who builds house foundations and slabs for a summer.


SF, I agree about the discussion part, but the guy who started this thread asked for facts on salt causing damage to concrete because of his issue. Several people jump in stating opinions, but do not identify them as opinions and portray themselves as authorities. For example what GTMS stated (not picking on him, honestly) about "anybody that's done this long enough knows that damage will occur" and then posts the quote.

3 things with that statement:

#1 What does he consider "long enough"?

#2 Bull **** because states, counties, cities, villages, contractors, homeowners, etc have been using salt on concrete for I don't know how many years and when properly installed and cured, salt and\or the freeze\thaw cycle will not damage concrete.

#3 It is scientific fact that salt does not chemically harm concrete. It is the freeze\thaw cycles that _may_ damage concrete.

For another example, the statement about water softener salt being a different kind of salt than rock salt. Once again, BS. Salt is salt is salt. It isn't compressed either because you can't compress a solid in that form, otherwise it would be warm\hot when touched. Not a physicist here, so if I'm mistaken on the reaction, please forgive me.

If someone is giving an opinion, all they have to do is state: "It is my opinion that anybody that has been doing this long enough knows better than to apply salt to concrete." Great, that opinion is still wrong, but now we know that person stands. This is different than the gas vs. diesel debate because there is scientific fact that salt does not chemically attack concrete. Throw in the pics and just about any half an idiot such as me can tell it is piss poor quality and installed concrete.

I already went through the reasons behind why we need to state our opinions as such and facts as such. WE are supposed to be the experts and when somebody gives an opinion as fact, they are going to make all of us look like idiots to our customers.

So discussions are great, and I'm guessing Mike has no problems with discussions because I've had several with him, let's all make sure we qualify what we are saying. I will be one of the first to make sure I do this in my posts from now on as I'm sure I'm guilty of the same thing.


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## REAPER

You know Mark if you want to call some one a liar then just do it. Don't try to sugar coat it with your BS.

The program I watched on salt dealt with pellets made from compacted evaporated salt or compacted solar salt. They used a large machine and large egg carton like molds. The salt was almost cream of soup like when shot into the molds. Maybe you did not catch this program but I did. You also say salt can not be compressed yet in a earlier post you say blocks are. So I guess those blocks self combust if not used? 

I know what I watched and before you call someone a liar do some research yourself.

I am not sure what has happen to this site but when I joined all the chest thumping and other crap that is said was not around then. Maybe it is time to find another site where another member wont go around trying to belittle those around them because they don't watch the same TV show..


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## cincy snowdog

*my opinion only*

the water treatment salt is compressed salt,if you ever used it that stuff is like running over a rock it will not break up easy.the reason for being compressed is when it is in the softener it will not break down and turn the salt in your softener to mush.(just like a pool filter with the chlorine pucks in the auto chlorinators.)it takes erosion to disolve it,it is salt but it is compressed.it would take a hammer to break a pellet up.
on the concrete ,there are different variables that can cause that;
1 weak ready mix -doubtful from plant but maybe finishers added water onsite.
2 flyash in concrete?
3 too much bleedwater-finisher brushed off bleed water before finishing (weakened top )
4 too dry of mix when poured and finishers applied water to surface to bring up cream.
5 windy day and the surface dried up too fast.
6 was it poured on 100 degree day or 20 degree day with no protection.
7was a sealer applied or was it a cure agent ,if anything.
8 air entrained concrete?
after all that the concrete is hygoscopic and the salt is hygroscopic(means it sucks up moisture) it sucked up the water held it near the surface ,at night it would freeze. with the concrete being weak,it popped the surface.

And ,and the sodium chloride IS corrosive to the elements in the concrete.
it is not a fast process that highly noticeable.
chlorides are used in the drying process of concrete.

the best i can say is to get a core sample of the concrete,have it tested ,they can see if it was improperly poured and finished or if it it was a bad mix.


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