# $75 per plow?



## dakotasrock

Hey guys.
Im fairly new to commercial plowing, but have some experiance. I was getting a bid together for a lot, and i was thinking of asking at least $100 per plow under 4 inches, and go on from there. They showed me a bill from last season, and the company only charged $75 a time, even with the 3 day, 1 foot of snow storms. Is that low, or is it just me? I figured the lot to be around 26000 square ft. Im also in the Minneapolis area. Attached is a pic of the lot & the demensions. Any input would be great.
Thanks!!

(the demensions are kinda hard to see, but they are 220' by 350')


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## 03SuperCrew330

I don't know your area but around here thats just insane!!!!!

I would think closer to $200 per push (3"-4") plus loader rental and off site disposal if needed!!!


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## dakotasrock

just to clairify, that large area in the middle is the building, not part of the lot.
thanks


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## Mick

dakotasrock;388369 said:


> Hey guys.
> Im fairly new to commercial plowing, but have some experiance. I was getting a bid together for a lot, and i was thinking of asking at least $100 per plow under 4 inches, and go on from there. They showed me a bill from last season, and the company only charged $75 a time, even with the 3 day, 1 foot of snow storms. Is that low, or is it just me? I figured the lot to be around 26000 square ft. Im also in the Minneapolis area. Attached is a pic of the lot & the demensions. Any input would be great.
> Thanks!!
> 
> (the demensions are kinda hard to see, but they are 220' by 350')


Why are they showing you a bill from last year? And why were you interested in it? If that's what they think it's worth, they should call that company again. Maybe there's a reason they didn't. You charge what you think it's worth.


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## UglyTruck

03SuperCrew330;388370 said:


> I don't know your area but around here thats just insane!!!!!
> 
> I would think closer to $200 per push (3"-4") plus loader rental and off site disposal if needed!!!


I gotta agree with closer to $200 per push.....and that not $200 per 4 day storm that dumps 2 feet....thats per time that you clear their lot for them so they can run their business uninterupted.

dont gouge them, but cover your expenses...and make a profit. and for the sake of all the other plowjockies in your area..DONT LOWBALL...


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## smitty3903

There must be a problem with the 75 dollar service if they are asking you for a price. If they were happy and didn't feel like they could get better service then they would go with the old company. Do you have to plow out the parking spaces as well? what about sidewalks? these are other things that you need to think about. But i could see getting 200 or more to do that lot.


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## Mark Oomkes

Just going on what has been posted for numbers and industry average, 26K sq ft should take about a half hour with an 8' plow. Looks about right from what I can tell on that small of a pic. Assuming that is true, that comes out to $150\hour, pretty good price and rate IMO. 

I can safely say that if I tried to get $200\plow for that lot in my area, I would be staying in bed, hungry, getting the power shut off, trucks repoed, evicted from my house and looking for a job. And no need for a plow and truck.


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## Big Dog D

Mark Oomkes;388420 said:


> Just going on what has been posted for numbers and industry average, 26K sq ft should take about a half hour with an 8' plow. Looks about right from what I can tell on that small of a pic. Assuming that is true, that comes out to $150\hour, pretty good price and rate IMO.
> 
> I can safely say that if I tried to get $200\plow for that lot in my area, I would be staying in bed, hungry, getting the power shut off, trucks repoed, evicted from my house and looking for a job. And no need for a plow and truck.


FWIW, I concour!!!


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## Mark Oomkes

Wow, we agree on something?   

Next thing you know, you'll be buying white plows.


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes;388420 said:


> Just going on what has been posted for numbers and industry average, 26K sq ft should take about a half hour with an 8' plow. Looks about right from what I can tell on that small of a pic. Assuming that is true, that comes out to $150\hour, pretty good price and rate IMO.
> 
> I can safely say that if I tried to get $200\plow for that lot in my area, I would be staying in bed, hungry, getting the power shut off, trucks repoed, evicted from my house and looking for a job. And no need for a plow and truck.





Big Dog D;388422 said:


> FWIW, I concour!!!





Mark Oomkes;388423 said:


> Wow, we agree on something?
> 
> Next thing you know, you'll be buying white plows.


 
This is getting scary! We agree on somthing.......

Anyone else hear the music from "The Twilight Zone" playing in the background??

We get around the same price for the same size lot, with no salt and with out doing the sidewalks.


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## Yaz

That lot would have to be empty with that 1/2 hour time. If there are cars in it and it snows you'll be making two trips on that same 4" push to get it cleaned up.. I would ask if cars be there 2 or 3 shifts? 

For the record you wouldn't have to worry about me taking that for 75 bucks.I would rather do 3 driveways and make more in just 15 minutes. 

At a min I would be $150.


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## YardMedic

Yaz;388513 said:


> For the record you wouldn't have to worry about me taking that for 75 bucks.I would rather do 3 driveways and make more in just 15 minutes.


I agree with that. Driveways are my primary reason for not trying to work for someone as a sub making $75/hr or a municipality doing the same. Commercial is the same way for me -- I'll charge a handsome rate per push, estimating high for a season & using the blizzard clause. $75 is a steal for that property, and you won't make any money.

~Kevin


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## SnoFarmer

So, what do we have 30 parking spots and a 4 spot loading dock.

Both straight pushes (all most) with places to put the snow at the sides and ends. 
the drivings lanes not that wide eather.

He did not mention a storm/blizzard rate.
If he needs to do the sidewalks or apply an ice melt or not.

The only work is back dragging the loading dock. 25-30 min max.?????
So, at that rate for a 1/2 hr would be $125 hr.  Whats wrong with that? 


.


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## fastjohnny

YardMedic;388616 said:


> I agree with that. Driveways are my primary reason for not trying to work for someone as a sub making $75/hr or a municipality doing the same. Commercial is the same way for me -- I'll charge a handsome rate per push, estimating high for a season & using the blizzard clause. $75 is a steal for that property, and you won't make any money.
> 
> ~Kevin


Yes, but the flip side for me is I can push commercial at 2 inches, but find it hard to pick up residentials at that trigger in my area. Most residentials dont want plowed till 3-4 or more, so if I had all residentials, there would be many times when I would sit while commercial stuff would be plowed.


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## dakotasrock

thanks for all the help. I just needed a starting price. I have a formula once i get that. Then i can figure out storm stuff. I dont need to shovel or ice melt, i just backdrag the front walk. Im gonna go with something around $150 and go from there. If they dont like it, whatever. Theyll be calling when the other guy doesnt show.


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## Mark Oomkes

YardMedic;388616 said:


> I agree with that. Driveways are my primary reason for not trying to work for someone as a sub making $75/hr or a municipality doing the same. Commercial is the same way for me -- I'll charge a handsome rate per push, estimating high for a season & using the blizzard clause. $75 is a steal for that property, and you won't make any money.
> 
> ~Kevin


OK, just so we don't get into the hourly rate argument again, how long would (for you guys that say $75 is not enough) it take to plow that lot? We all know that rates are different, so let's compare times instead.

Resi's are OK as long as you know what you're getting into. On the flip side, you guys that will do 3 resi's to one commercial, have to deal with 3 separate people, 3 separate proposals\contracts, 3 separate invoices, whereas the commercial guys only have one. Not saying one is right and one is wrong, just a lot of different ways of looking at it.


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## YardMedic

Fast, you definitely have a point with the lower trigger, though most of my residentials are cleared at 2". Commercial contracts have seasonal benefits as well, I know -- contracted amount regardless of snowfall. I know this is a big downfall with residentials, as many might not go for the $250-300 for a season.

Mark, I know you're right about the number of customers/bid/contracts, but beyond that the plowing of non-commercial properties can have significantly fewer headaches for a lot less time investment. I agree it's a tradeoff -- more people to deal with, but the reality is we can clear 5-10 driveways in an hour depending on the route. That's a pretty good cash camel right there. As I mentioned above, I like commercial contracts for a dependable income whether it snows or not, and I'll admit that I'll certainly be looking into more commercials as I put on another truck, but I also can't dismiss the huge value seen in residentials.

~Kevin


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## JeepPlow18

The only thing that is some what reasonable to me is in MN you guys have much more snow then other parts of the U.S and it may snow twice as mant times there as compared to only a fraction of that here in Northern NJ. Thats why this guy charges $75, he thinks its guarenteed so why not push the price down. but i do not agree with him on that rediculous $75 a push.


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## Silentroo

22000 Sq feet is 1/2 an Acre. You are telling me you generally plow at 400 an Acre!!!!!! Wow I am in the wrong town. I am In Minneapolis. 1/2 an Acre at 100 and you better be giving the best service EVER!!! I have a 1 Acre cut off unless it is a neighbor to another property I have. I have a GREAT rep in town and would struggle to get 200 for 1/2 an Acre. Most people would laugh at us. There are plenty of guys willing to do that lot at 50-75 I would not bid over 100. You will not get it... As a Neighbor I would probably price it between 50 and 75. It is a straight and EASY push with little to challenge. ANY one with a truck can make it look nice as long as they do not over book.


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## Mark Oomkes

Nobody going to estimate their time on this one? 

I'm with SnoFarmer, 25-30 minutes on a normal 2-4" snowfall.


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## JeepPlow18

Silentroo;388753 said:


> 22000 Sq feet is 1/2 an Acre. You are telling me you generally plow at 400 an Acre!!!!!! Wow I am in the wrong town. I am In Minneapolis. 1/2 an Acre at 100 and you better be giving the best service EVER!!! I have a 1 Acre cut off unless it is a neighbor to another property I have. I have a GREAT rep in town and would struggle to get 200 for 1/2 an Acre. Most people would laugh at us. There are plenty of guys willing to do that lot at 50-75 I would not bid over 100. You will not get it... As a Neighbor I would probably price it between 50 and 75. It is a straight and EASY push with little to challenge. ANY one with a truck can make it look nice as long as they do not over book.


If thats what its worth in your area then thats fine but in the northeast it would be worth closer to the $200 mark. Its just two totally different areas and different yearly snowfall averages.


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## framer1901

If you're there more than 30 minutes you might need to find a new line of work. Heck, my blower boys could tackle that in 60...................

But then again, if you only get three snowfalls a year, your price may be higher............


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## Mark Oomkes

framer, that's what I'm trying to get at. Are some more efficient because they plow more frequently? That in addition to having to recover their costs in fewer plowings could explain some of the differences we're seeing.


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## JeepPlow18

framer1901;388881 said:


> If you're there more than 30 minutes you might need to find a new line of work. Heck, my blower boys could tackle that in 60...................
> 
> But then again, if you only get three snowfalls a year, your price may be higher............


Bingo thats exactly what im trying to say!!!


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## snow problem

I can't believe the diffrence in prices fro plowing around the region. I am glad my clients don't read these sites. If they did I be home with my family, I get almost that much per res. driveway. what would happen if you all tried to get a rate close to what we get in NJ. If you all stuck together in price, you would all get what i think you deserve. Remember, when your out all day and night plowing their inside with thier families.


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## murray83

Different areas have different rate structures and thats just the way it is.I'd love to get what some make on plowing on this site but here those rates just wouldn't fly.

Driveways in my city go for around an average of $20 a visit and most only want one visit per event.


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## Mark Oomkes

murray83;389251 said:


> Different areas have different rate structures and thats just the way it is.I'd love to get what some make on plowing on this site but here those rates just wouldn't fly.
> 
> Driveways in my city go for around an average of $20 a visit and most only want one visit per event.


Exactly my point. But you're well aware of this already, just wish everybody could grasp this concept.


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## Yaz

It's not the area that sets the rates, It's the contractors that keep it low buy under cutting each other.

snow problem is right.


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## snow problem

I argree, remember we are providing a service that is needed. Once the lot is plowed then their customer's or emplyees can come to work so they can make money. No plowing the lot, no customer's for them = no money for them.


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## murray83

I think your area does matter in some ways,I can agree though rate cutting will hurt but most area will see that anyways.But if your area is more upscale your rates will be higher than say my area where is blue collar workers who can be tight with their money.


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## SnoFarmer

Post your bid for this lot.....
Some are just bashing the price. soooo,
Read all of dakotasrock's posts and then post your price..same conditions...

I think some of you would be sleeping at night and all day too with your high prices instead of plowing.


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer;389662 said:


> Post your bid for this lot.....
> Some are just bashing the price. soooo,
> Read all of dakotasrock's posts and then post your price..same conditions...
> 
> I think some of you would be sleeping at night and all day too with your high prices instead of plowing.


I'm going to sign off on this thread as well, SF, this one is going to end up the way of all the others when people just can't comprehend the different rates in markets all across the country.


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## snow problem

Maybe if you got payed more per lot you guys would have to rush to finsh a lot that big in a 1/2 hour. You better know the lot if your riping through the lot that fast. I have seen how some of the commercial guys plow (fast). I know in some of the areas people don't make as much money, but don't the commercial lot have the money to pay? I understand that res. may not but why does a bank or store in NJ. have more money to pay then in other areas? I think they do, so why charge so much less then here?.


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## Mark Oomkes

snow problem;389665 said:


> Maybe if you got payed more per lot you guys would have to rush to finsh a lot that big in a 1/2 hour. You better know the lot if your riping through the lot that fast. I have seen how some of the commercial guys plow (fast). I know in some of the areas people don't make as much money, but don't the commercial lot have the money to pay? I understand that res. may not but why does a bank or store in NJ. have more money to pay then in other areas? I think they do, so why charge so much less then here?.


Demographics. Same reason a 1000 SF house around me goes for say $100K and in California that same house would be more like $400K or $250K in IL. Costs of living are different in all areas so services, products, real estate, etc all are priced differently.

Not saying anyone is wrong, but if one of my guys can't blow that lot off in a half hour with 4" of snow with an 8' straight or 8'6" V, he won't be plowing for me for very long. That is not what I would consider plowing fast, just at a normal speed.


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## Grn Mtn

Hell I plow a 56k lot for $65, but its wide open with no salt or shovel, I get it done in 33 min. Its fun and I would rather do that than 6 driveways (small 2-4 car)

If the lot is clear at night, the biggest pain will be the loading docks, and even those don't look to bad. Everything gets a straight push by the look of it with no need for removal. With wings that lot should take about 20-30 minutes. $60-$80 per push. You'll be making $120 per hour, that should cover expenses and put money in your pocket. And for you Jersey guys, this price is assuming 24 events.


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## snow problem

Just wondering how many of thes $65 dollar lots you have. Seems to me that you have to do a lot of plowing to make your money. You don't think that $65 is low balling? But if you guy's are happy with that so be it.


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## snow problem

I forgot one other thing. What do you guys mean by the "lazy, overpaid and chaging my customers for plow stakes". Maybe that the problem, you guys really think your overpaid.


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes;389663 said:


> I'm going to sign off on this thread as well, SF, this one is going to end up the way of all the others when people just can't comprehend the different rates in markets all across the country.


I comprehend different areas getting a different price for the same lot.

But, still it looks like 1/2 hr max of work, not plowing fast but not making a hobby out of it eather by just putting around the lot.

$75 here, $ 85 there, $10 bucks a push differences isn't going to make or break a season..

snow problem, lowballing?? $65 for 20 to 30 minutes of work = $130hr

I'm with Grn Mtn,
I would rather do one lot than plow drives for $30 a push. less liability.


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## SnoFarmer

snow problem;389712 said:


> I forgot one other thing. What do you guys mean by the "lazy, overpaid and chaging my customers for plow stakes". Maybe that the problem, you guys really think your overpaid.


"
Do a Search use 
"LLm Ann Arbor"

Some of them are rather funny.

or go directly tohttp://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=39352&highlight=%22LLm+Ann+Arbor%22


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## snow problem

I agree with you that $130 an hour is not bad for just siting in your truck plowing, but it's $65 dollars for 1/2 hour. What happens after that, how many of these lots are there, how close to each other are they. Then tell me how much you are really making and hour. The bottom line is that we are all making money and that's what counts. Again, please don't take this tthe wrong way, I am just tring to understand what you guys are saying.


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## SnoFarmer

snow problem;389716 said:


> I agree with you that $130 an hour is not bad for just siting in your truck plowing, but it's $65 dollars for 1/2 hour. What happens after that, how many of these lots are there, how close to each other are they. Then tell me how much you are really making and hour. The bottom line is that we are all making money and that's what counts. Again, please don't take this tthe wrong way, I am just tring to understand what you guys are saying.


No problem.

Who knows about the amount of work in the area
or how close together his lots are.

If you worked for company X. do they pay you to drive to and from work?

I do not get paid for travel time eather. Having a tight route is nice but a guy has to start some where.


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## framer1901

In New Jersey, how many nights per season do you actually plow? Not counting salt, how many plowable events do you average with a two inch trigger??


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## snow problem

This year was a bad year for use. I had only 3 plowable events, made about $2,500. After reading that thread you told me about it seems that a lot of guy's have a hard time answering a question. See my answer to you question, i don't answer it with a question. Last year 5


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## Yaz

Mark Oomkes;389666 said:


> Demographics. Same reason a 1000 SF house around me goes for say $100K and in California that same house would be more like $400K or $250K in IL. Costs of living are different in all areas so services, products, real estate, etc all are priced differently.
> 
> Not saying anyone is wrong, but if one of my guys can't blow that lot off in a half hour with 4" of snow with an 8' straight or 8'6" V, he won't be plowing for me for very long. That is not what I would consider plowing fast, just at a normal speed.


Labor might be less but your plows, trucks, fuel are about equal. If 75 makes you money that's great. But I still think the $130 per hour is stretched. Add all your costs to get that plow there ready to plow when it snows.Travel time, Phone calls, billing, Cost of equipment, insurance, maintenance, depreciation etc etc.


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## framer1901

If Jersy averages 5 events per year, that would explain price differences and efficiency differences.

No offense to anyone, but if you plow five times a year, you probably won't be as efficient as someone that plows 25 times per year. I think we plowed 3 times per week from mid January till the end of Feburary, you get pretty quick about things doing it that often. Very little wasted movement, unneccesary turning around and the like.

Also, we pay for our stuff over 25 nites verses 5 - that's not a huge difference do to wear and tear, but there is some there.


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## snow problem

Wow thats a lot of plowing. How long are you out there for? Is this your full time job, or do you have to go to work after you work all day or night plowing?


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## framer1901

If you wanna work more than four hours a nite, it becomes a full time job in this area. 

I just looked at this years billing; between January 14th and Feburary 19th, we had 7 nights where we did no billing; between January 14th and March 3rd, it was 15 nights with no billing. This was a better than average year.

I think if you do this seriously, you must treat it as your number one priority, a full time job. I'm self employeed in construction, winter time is for plowing and odd jobs, some of us hate working out in the cold and or shoveling for an hour to find a lumber pile.

We plow quite a bit for not being a landscaper and grow every year.........

Hours per nite?? Me, regular nites about ten hours, storms, it all depends, I've seen the sun rise, set and rise again before.............. We really try to rotate people around, you really are pretty useless with no sleep, a couple hours tucked in a loading dock goes a long ways.


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## snow problem

With that many days/nights out, I guess that is your full time job. I don't remember if you said it before, but do you do mostly res. or com? What type of truck are you running?


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## AbsoluteH&L

framer1901;389904 said:


> If you wanna work more than four hours a nite, it becomes a full time job in this area.
> I think if you do this seriously, you must treat it as your number one priority, a full time job. I'm self employeed in construction, winter time is for plowing and odd jobs, ...
> 
> We plow quite a bit for not being a landscaper and grow every year.........
> 
> Hours per nite?? Me, regular nites about ten hours, storms, it all depends, I've seen the sun rise, set and rise again before.............. We really try to rotate people around, you really are pretty useless with no sleep, a couple hours tucked in a loading dock goes a long ways.


Been there done that Valentines day: out at 2am, home midnight. St Patrick's day: out plowing when everyone else is out getting plowed 


Grn Mtn;389694 said:


> Hell I plow a 56k lot for $65, but its wide open with no salt or shovel, I get it done in 33 min. Its fun and I would rather do that than 6 driveways (small 2-4 car)
> If the lot is clear at night, the biggest pain will be the loading docks, and even those don't look to bad. Everything gets a straight push by the look of it with no need for removal. With wings that lot should take about 20-30 minutes. $60-$80 per push. You'll be making $120 per hour, that should cover expenses and put money in your pocket. And for you Jersey guys, this price is assuming 24 events.


 Grn Mtn: for $60 you could have it. I like my res. drives. It's my thing , nice tight groupings. The first part of my route is 25 drives on one street = 45 minuets to an hour.payup


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## snow problem

How is that possible to do 25 driveway's in 45 to an hour. What size are they? That's less then 5 minutes a piece.


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## AbsoluteH&L

Two cars wide by 50-75 foot long. A few I can push in (no back blading ) because the garage entrance is off the side of the drive. I would rather do 65 small drives than 30-40 bigger ones. I know more billings, people, bla bla bla. But for me this is what works best. I do some driveways that big trucks just can't do, maneuverability or width. I have one drive that the garage entrance is on the back side of the garage. Stupidest thing I ever saw, owner has to back up and maneuver each time to get in or out of garage. I can turn sharper that she can, and thats while plowing!
Also that 25 drives is all on one street. most of them are in groups of 2-3.


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## snow problem

Ok, I have large res. circular driveways, each take me about 10 15 minutes. I too have a cherokee for my res. I do though take my time and try to save my equipment.


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## murray83

I'm just a one man band so I like to keep things simple,as said above I too like doing simple driveways its in and out in no time and if you can grab a few on the same street even better.


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## framer1901

We do 95% commercial, a very select few resi's - mostly business owners, homes on private drives that we do or a resi that's in between commercial properties.

Resi's could be very profitable but take into account time spent billing and chasing payments, it's just not for us. I think alot of the larger guys here do not even consider residential. Another thing is the chance of damage verses amount billed per night, couple sprinkler heads a the profit is out the window...........

Full service commercial, plow, walks, walk salt and lot salt, now that's an invoice you look forward to sending out..........

Fords, Fords and more Fords - Diesels - Big ones...........


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## snow problem

Just wondering how long you have to wait for payment? I have 4 people who have been customers of mine for 7 years who still have not payed me for the first snow. The funny thing is that each one called me at the begining of the season asking me if I would plow them. As I said before, we only had 3 plowable events this year and each time these customers were billed. I've even been "waved" to from the window of there home as i was doing their driveways. I must say though, all my other clients pay wihin a week after the storm. I guess this weekend I will be knocking on thier door.


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## framer1901

We work with customers that have cash flow problems, but communication has to happen. Remember, people are embaresed to be behind in bills and you do deserve to be paid for services provided. But to me a long term customer gets treated a bit different, new ones on the other hand get called when they hit past 30 days.

We bill monthly so you can really get jambed but it's the way I choose to bill.


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## snow problem

I agree with you, but it just so happens that 3 out of the four non payers are not straped for money all three are doctors at a local hospital living in a $900,000 home. I don't think my $175 is going to break them, but I do agree with you about communication needs to happen, I am good at getting the job, but my communication skills my be lacking.


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## Silentroo

I always find these threads and what do you get paid threads a riot! There are I think two or three people in the discussion who have any idea on the actual answer to the question asked.

Personally I would love to tell guys you can expect to make 200 an acre or an hour. Let them bid it there. Makes my number that much better. I am in several markets. There are markets I make more as a % and markets where I make less. Generally at the end of the season the numbers are VERY close for money produced per Acre. 

I am not a low baller. I have NEVER been the lowest bid. In fact in A lot of cases I am 5-10% above the lowballer. Quality sells. However Pricing 25-100% high will seldom sell.

Every industry faces cycles. Price over service, Seasonal VS per push or Hourly. All with one company many companies. They are seldom nation wide.


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## snow problem

What's your point? What's your answer to the actual question? My price is in line with others in my area, it just seems to me that in my area that price is much higher. Some very good points were offered here, but i beleive that the reason you guys get less is because there are more of you plowing in the areas were you get 25-30 snow events and i do belive that there is low-balling going on.


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## Silentroo

My point was....

In the first page I answer the question. So did a couple of other people from Minnesota. 

There is little value from people from 1000+ miles away telling this guy that he ought to hold out for more.... I know my market and to low ball this property you would be talking 40-50 dollars. I know many guys who would do this cake walk of a lot for 65-70.... 

I would never give advice to any one in another market based on what I know about Minneapolis/ ST paul....


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## Mark Oomkes

Silentroo;390351 said:


> My point was....
> 
> In the first page I answer the question. So did a couple of other people from Minnesota.
> 
> There is little value from people from 1000+ miles away telling this guy that he ought to hold out for more.... I know my market and to low ball this property you would be talking 40-50 dollars. I know many guys who would do this cake walk of a lot for 65-70....
> 
> I would never give advice to any one in another market based on what I know about Minneapolis/ ST paul....


This is one of the most intelligent posts I've seen on PS in a long time.

Good luck, you're going to end up with high blood pressure trying to actually get one or two of these guys to comprehend it though.

PS But what do you know? You're only plowing in the same market.


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## snow problem

Nobody is telling him to hold out for more money. I just don;t understand and never will why you guys are willing to work so cheap. Maybe if you knew many guys that would do it for 100-150 then you all could make what you deserve. Please,someone tell me, what makes the lot in Minneapolis so cheap to do. Is that guy who ownes the bulidng your lowing making less then the same company in NJ.


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## Mark Oomkes

snow problem;390357 said:


> Nobody is telling him to hold out for more money. I just don;t understand and never will why you guys are willing to work so cheap. Maybe if you knew many guys that would do it for 100-150 then you all could make what you deserve. Please,someone tell me, what makes the lot in Minneapolis so cheap to do. Is that guy who ownes the bulidng your lowing making less then the same company in NJ.


Let's turn this around. Not sure what you figure per hour for plowing\estimating or per acre\square foot whatever, it's irrelevant to this question.

Let's just say you want to make $300\hour with your truck. Why do _you_ settle for $300? If $300 is good, why not $400 or $500 per hour? Shoot for the moon, how about $1000 an hour for your truck? You're working pretty doggone cheap at $300 per hour. Just raise your price to make the $1000. Go ahead.

I mean this in all seriousness.


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## snow problem

I think maybe you should forget about this thread Mark, you sound like you lost it. I don't understand a word you said, can't you just answer my question. Again, my prices are in line with others in my area, i guess yours are to for your area, i am just saying i think you guys should get more.


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## Mark Oomkes

You're not the first one to think I've lost it, especially here. But that's OK, my self esteem is high, so I don't worry too much about what people think about me.

As for the question, I'm trying to get you to think and figure it out for yourself why we estimate at the rates we do. Let me simplify the question then:

Still assuming you are estimating at $300 per hour, why do you only figure $300 per hour?

PS If you think this one is bad, you should check out some of the other pricing threads. This one specifically: http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=41959&highlight=lowballers

PPS And if I've lost it, then so has Silentroo, BigDog, and SnoFarmer, so I consider myself to be in good company.


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## snow problem

You should be a Politician, or mabe try goverment work lol. I get your point.


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## Mark Oomkes

snow problem;390364 said:


> You should be a Politician, or mabe try goverment work lol. I get your point.


Ha, I can't stand politicians, they're all crooks. I'm too honest and I actually need to get something done and do it efficiently.

I hope you do understand, because most of the others have not grasped the concept.


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## snow problem

Wow, you are a confident guy.


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## murray83

I still laugh to myself,how many people do you know pay $300/hr?

I had 25 accounts and per storm it brought in $500 (driveways nothing major) now for that 3 hours of work it averaged out to $166.67 per hour,now my profit was $80/hr after insurance,fuel,my wage and a nest egg to cover basic maintenance as time goes on.

Again $80/hr take home to me doesn't sound that bad only doing 25 driveways I know plenty not even making $12/hr swinging a shovel.

To each their own I suppose.


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## Mark Oomkes

snow problem;390367 said:


> Wow, you are a confident guy.


Most would say arrogant, but the little voices I hear tell me I'm not.


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## snow problem

Mark, after eading that thread you told me to read the more nut's you seem to be, but i like that. Seem's you have a lot of friends that agree with you, are they on your pay role? I do understand that if your sitting around all winter waiting for it to snow because you can not do lawns in the winter, you will work for a lot less then me. What happend to the saying "time is money". I'll take my $65 to $85 driveways any day. I still say you guys set the price, Just get together with your buddys and raise your prices. For those prices you guys charge, those lazy homeowners would be shoveling there driveways themself.


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## Mark Oomkes

Please don't suggest putting them on the payroll. However, if they can float a SS anyone of them will be hired.

It has nothing to do with waiting around for snow. You're in N. Jersey, right? How much for a 1000 sq ft apartment per month?


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## snow problem

YES, to the first quesion, I have not rented in 20 years, but an apartment around here will cost you arounD $1200- $1500. If your not sitting around waiting for it to snow what are you doing with you time? What do you mean it has nothing to so with wating for it to snow. You guys said it, let the truck sit all winter or make some money plowing. If that is your only source of income, that that has a lot to do with your rates. Any of your workers have ss#, around here that seems to be a big problem, you know cheap labor makes you guys more money.


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## Mark Oomkes

I haven't rented in a long time either, but around here it'll go for $700 or $800. Why?

We're out dormant pruning, getting equipment ready for spring\summer. And waiting for it to snow.

You need to reread my statement about letting my trucks sit. I said if I tried to get those prices, my truck would be sitting, because those rates aren't going to fly in my market for the most part. Maybe on a few locations, but not as a general guideline for pricing. 

You're contradicting yourself on the next statement. If it is my only source of income, shouldn't my rates be higher to cover my overhead? If I'm covering my overhead between landscaping and snowplowing, I could charge less for plowing.

All of my employees are legal citizens, paid legally--not under the table. I may pay them as Misc Labor until they reach the $600 limit, but after that, full taxes are deducted and paid. 

If it matters, the business I own has been around since 1932, 75 years. My dad bought it from his grandfather in 1962 and is still active, but owned it until 4 years ago. I have been involved since I was 10, and basically ops manager for the last almost 15 years since we computerized. We are on the high end of pricing in my area. There are idiots out there that are half what my rates are for plowing and applying salt. I have lost some work, but end up replacing it with customers willing to pay for a higher level of service. No, I don't know everything, which is why I visit these forums, to continually learn, but I do know that you will be out of business trying to get the same rate for plowing in my area that you do in Jersey. You will be laughed out of the door with even my rates in Erie, PA. Much, if not all of this, has to do with area mgt companies treating a service as a commodity where prices can fluctuate. Prices have gone down in my area over the past couple years because of these idiots that think they need to be the biggest contractor in GR or MI or whatever there goal is rather than earning a decent living by charging what they should be for an emergency service. I know the business, and I know what's possible\realistic and what isn't. 

As I stated in the beginning, it has to do with demographics. If it was completely up to me as to what I should charge, why wouldn't I go for a $1000\hour?

You still haven't answered why you only charge $65-$85 for driveways. Why shouldn't you earn more? Why don't you go for $100 per driveway? Why do you charge what you charge? 

As for getting together with 'my buddies' and raising rates, I would hope that as a police officer you would know and understand the definitions and results of collusion and price fixing. That's another discussion entirely that has been beat to death with a former member of PS. 

Tell you what, if it's such a great idea, how about you give it a shot with your buddies and let me know how it works out. Then you can have your $100 per drive.


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## SnoFarmer

A 2 bdrm Apt $450 to $600.mo

A 3 bdrm House $750 to $1000 mo

The most expensive rental in the paper is $1500 for a 5bdrm.

Avg house cost to buy is $150K to $250K

electric rates 
first 50 kWh at $5.00
next 300 kWh at $0.04
all additional kWh at $0.07

avg res drive $30 to $40 or they will do to them selves or there neighbor with his plow truck does it for next to nothing as every one around here has a truck and plow. 

Example , there are 16 plow trucks and 4 tractors 1 with a blower all with in a 1/2 mile radius of my house. competition is keeping prices low the only market that you can make any money in is commercial lots.

Supply and demand drives the market. 
The cost of living controls your cost and profit.


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## snow problem

Boy this is addicting, don't know why it only cost 700- 800,, i guess it "demographics". If you don't have much work in the winter months, and you need to pay the bills, i believe you will charge less to get some income. How's that contadicting myself ? 
I don't know what the hourly rate is for your emplyee's but i do not think it is much less then here.
I know about the family busness for over 75 years, I read the threads, 
I told you already that i get the point about why we charge what we charge, if I could get more i, like most would be charging more. 
let me ask you something, how do you think the prices in your area are what they are. A bunch of you guy's setting the price. I don't think thats price fixing, or is it? You guys have set the prices. Thats not price fixing, your providing a service you can charge what ever you want. You may not be working if you charge what you want. I tell you this, if i did get together with my buddy's and tried to get $100 a drive, we might get it, but like you i am happy with my rate, which i think is fair. If someone came and started plowing for 30 a drive, i would sell the truck and spend that time with my family, not drop to 30.


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## SnoFarmer

snow problem;390415 said:


> Boy this is addicting, don't know why it only cost 700- 800,, i guess it "demographics". If you don't have much work in the winter months, and you need to pay the bills, i believe you will charge less to get some income. How's that contadicting myself ?
> . If someone came and started plowing for 30 a drive, i would sell the truck and spend that time with my family, not drop to 30.


Work and bills, We do not rely solely on snow plowing for income, diversify....

Yup it's demographics, supply and demand and what the market will bare.
$30 a drive is why we only plow a couple of res drives, the bulk of our work is 
commercial lots.

$30 a drive the average drive takes you how long to plow? 10, 15 minutes max?
How many drives can you do in a hr? 4, 5? thats approx $120 an hr.

So, your parking your truck at $120 an hr?

labor here is cheaper and unreliable as fewer an fewer want to work outside at night in the Winter and most shovel for there beer money.


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## Mark Oomkes

snow problem;390415 said:


> Boy this is addicting, don't know why it only cost 700- 800,, i guess it "demographics". If you don't have much work in the winter months, and you need to pay the bills, i believe you will charge less to get some income. How's that contadicting myself ?


If you did that, IMO, you would be an idiot. You have X amount of overhead to cover--truck, plow, insurance, materials, etc--and if you can only plow 2X vs. 30X, wouldn't your rates be higher at 2X? Mine would, unless I was recovering that overhead with something else as SF stated by diversifying.



snow problem;390415 said:


> let me ask you something, how do you think the prices in your area are what they are.


This is such a loaded question, I can't answer it easily. Prices are determined a multitude of ways.

1)There's companies that actually determine their overall costs for plowing and price accordingly.

2) There's the dartboard method: "This one looks like a $50 job, that's what I'll charge. Don't have the slightest clue what costs are or overhead, I got money in the bank at the end of the year, so I must've made money" method.

3) There's the "I want to be the biggest so I'm going to price lower than last year (cuz I'm a dumbass) so I can grow" method.

4) There's the "The other guy was charging $50? Heck, I'll do it for $45 or $25, he's ripping you off" method.

5) There's also the "I hired a full time sales rep who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground so let him just pull numbers out of either hole and price accordingly" method.

Then there's a combination of all of the above as well.



snow problem;390415 said:


> A bunch of you guy's setting the price. I don't think thats price fixing, or is it? You guys have set the prices. Thats not price fixing, your providing a service you can charge what ever you want.


Depends, I'm not a lawyer, but if you did it this way and got caught, yes that would be price fixing.



snow problem;390415 said:


> You may not be working if you charge what you want. I tell you this, if i did get together with my buddy's and tried to get $100 a drive, we might get it, _but like you i am happy with my rate_, which i think is fair. If someone came and started plowing for 30 a drive, i would sell the truck and spend that time with my family, not drop to 30.


Now we _are_ getting somewhere. Yes, I would like to make more per hour, but I also find more efficient ways of plowing to get there, not just by charging my customers more. Overall, I am happy with my rates. I wish I could raise them a little and keep all my trucks busy, but that would be difficult, so I choose to make a lower profit with more trucks. I do this knowing ahead of time I will not be making as much, not a year after I finish the work. If I was not happy with the rates I am getting and if the profit got to a point that it wasn't worth it, I would either quit or sub out my equipment, but so far so good.

SF handled the $30\drive comments well, no additional comment from me needed.

The whole problem I am having with these types of threads has been stated and you are seeing the light. If a guy 1000 miles away is happy with the rate he is getting, let him be. None of us know his business, his costs, his market, etc and should be telling him "Don't settle for that little bit, you should get more". Yup, and we should all have a million bucks too, but we don't unless we work for it. (And get out of snowplowing  )

Most guys think I am arrogant, but I believe that _they_ are the epitome of arrogance to be telling someone else in a completely different market what they should be getting for a driveway. That is why I was trying to steer it towards how much time would it take to plow the lot instead of how much the charge should be. Time is the same for all of us, plowing rates are not.

PS True story that happened to us a few years back. Had a 'competitor' (using the term loosely) that told us that we are ripping off our customers if we are charging more than $65 per hour. Later that year, his largest customer called us and asked us to bid these locations. Our price was higher per push than his, but after the first winter of our service, they did an analysis and determined that their per inch cost was lower because of our efficiencies. (We used loaders with ProTechs and moved the snow once, he had a pickup plow up piles all over the lot, then a loader come and move them). So despite our price being higher, it cost the customer less. Guess we could have charged more, but we have those locations signed until 2009, all inclusive contract. At an hourly rate twice what that idiot said we were ripping our customers off with.


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## snow problem

OH no we may be agreeing on somthing, that's not going to make this fun anymore. Just think a green horn like me might be getting it. Just wondering how many trucks do you have and how many contracts to you have?


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## Mark Oomkes

It's not a bad thing to agree with me, really.  But only when I'm right.

9 trucks, with 1 as a backup. 3 have salt spreaders, 1 has a liquid anti-icing sprayer. 1 Jeep that we use on a sidewalk crew, 1 Kubota RTV on another sidewalk crew, 1 loader with front and back plows. 2 SS's from subs, 3 loaders with ProTechs.

Not sure on how many contracts, someday I'll count, lots of people ask. Problem is we have several customers with multiple locations. Around 60-70 accounts.


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## snow problem

Thanks for all the info guy's. I really never understood why or how much of a difference in price from state to state, but you have all explained it to me and it makes some sense to me. Never thought about hourly rate verses per push rate ethier, but i do now. Like i said before, i am just a small guy for new jersey who plows 30-40 driveways and makes very good money doing that, when it snows. 
one more question Mark is it more profitable for your company to plow snow of do landscape work?.


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## Mark Oomkes

Plowing and salting, day in, day out. More stress, but the money makes it worthwhile. 

Personally, when I refer to an hourly rate, I am using that term the same as if you estimated by the sq ft or acre. I sell a service which uses up time, therefore my bidding is based on how much time an account is going to take to plow. For salting, obviously you have to add in material, but for plowing and shoveling, it is all determined by using an hourly rate. We don't plow anything by the hour, I like to be rewarded for being efficient. Another reason I'll never be a politician.


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## framer1901

I hear grass growing and nail guns firing, make the most you can, when you can and most of all, pay your subs and suppliers Distinctive Landsacaping :redbounce :redbounce


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## LwnmwrMan22

snow problem;389727 said:


> This year was a bad year for use. I had only 3 plowable events, made about $2,500. After reading that thread you told me about it seems that a lot of guy's have a hard time answering a question. See my answer to you question, i don't answer it with a question. Last year 5


Must be getting back to plowing season, I'm hitting this site vs LawnSite.

Anyways, 2 years ago, I plowed 18 commercial accounts, grossed $384 / hour. Yes, per hour because I do all accounts on contract and we only plowed 7 times.

Last year, I plowed the same 18 accounts, plowed a total of 16 times, and this was with (2) back to back snowstorms of 24" in late Feb., early March where I plowed with the storm and I plowed most accounts 3-4 times during those storms, so about a total of 8 times outside of those storms.

Even at the 16 times, I still grossed $112.50 / hour.

Now.... my price that I would charge for this lot?? $300 / month, for 6 months, for a total of $1800 for the year.

It'd be no different than a small McD's, bank or gas station at $200-400 / month. I have 2 accounts that pay by the inch to cover fuel costs, the rest is contract. 16 accounts at an average of $300 / month for 6 months. Just under $30k of guaranteed income for 15-16 hours of work / 2-4" of snow, whether total storm, or plowing with the storm.

We average 50-55" / year 30 miles north of St. Paul / Minneapolis with an average event rate of 15 snow events / year.


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## Jbowe

*Priceing*

Been reading these posts on costs a lot and listening to the old timers as well as new people to the business that are trying to get free priceing information. The one thing I am not hearing though is the cost associated with each dollar made with the exception of fuel and insurance. A good number of us are in one form of construction or another during the off seasons and we do this to keep our people working during the winters. At least that is my case. Taxes take a huge chunk out of what I make and they also have to be factored into the equation just as workmans comp does. So what a lone wolf can charge per hr and what I have to charge per hour are two entirely different issues. When I started in the mid 90's I had to learn how to price by myself. There were no forums I could go to for free advice. I made a lot of mistakes along the way and made adjustments to how I was bidding as this was a completely new area I had to learn. I am sure that no matter what you will learn on here, when your standing in front of a potential client the game is to get the contract. No matter if your a beginner or a seasoned pro you go for the max dollar that you can pull in to help your bottom line. By far I am not the cheapest in my area but my season is full and I really don't have time to take call in's even though I do on occasion but when I do I try to turn them into seasonal. My advice to new people is to listen to the hr rates then bid your jobs accordingly, If you have to come down then do it by a job for job basis. Don't come down unless you feel its the only way to get the contract but only if you know that you can meet your bottom line expectations. Don't sell your services for free because once you start doing that you will find yourself in a bidding trap and thats the last place you want to be. Well I have said my piece and hope it makes sense.


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## ferdinand711

2"-4" = $ 173.33


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## big acres

*More from Minnesota...*

I noticed many guys, especially from MN, are coming in at around $200 on this one. I 'd say that is competitive, if I was driving by already. We had our first forcast of snow l this week, and wouldn't you know it, the phone rang. I had dropped a per-time bid off a month ago, followed up several times and wrote them off. It seems $185 on a 2" for alot barely half this size is the winning bid. I say great because we do the neighboring property and this will take a half-hour max! LET IT SNOW!


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## fnltch

I have been charging 65.00 an hour and bid it accordingly to the inches accumalated. 1 to 5 than 6 to 10 i add another 20.00


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## Jbowe

*Pricing*

You know guys everytime I read that someone is chargeing 65. an hr to plow then adding for inches it make me cringe. Why is it so many on here is leaving money on the table. Stop and think about this. I don't care if your in Main, Colorado or here in Alaska, if you sub out to a contractor your going to get 60 to 70 dollars an hr for your truck and plow. Most will have to pay for thier own gas so that figure goes down. Now with that in mind if your subbing you have to know that the contractor is chargeing double that. Probaby from 120 to 145 an hr for your truck and you. If you look at it realistically thats the going hr rate for a truck, plow and driver. I have been asked many times how I justify what I charge and when I run the numbers down they usually understand. Now if your just trying to make beer money then 65 is fine. But if your in this to try and make a profit then you need to charge the going rates per hr. Thats why its become so hard for legit companies to make money at this. I just don't see what is so hard to figure out that so many of you guys are afraid to charge what your worth. Are you afraid to ask for money?


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## Mick

And that's why I won't sub or work for the town contractor. Last time I was asked if I wanted a job was in the middle of a big snowstorm. Met the town contractor who flagged me down and asked if I was could help him out. He offered me $20 an hour - to use my one ton, 9' plow and sander - and said it like he was really being generous. I told him "No thanks, I'm busy with my own". Next time he saw me was in the convenience store and asked me again. That time I told him "You can't afford me." Really pi----d him off, but he hasn't asked again.

Wages, like other rates, are highly regional. Since then, I found out he WAS being generous.


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## Jbowe

*Mick*

How could he be generous when he only offered you 20$ an hr for your 1 ton truck, sander and yourself. I don't by that for a second. You wouldn't even be able to pay your gas, insurance, and a minimum wage for that. Sounds like he was trying to get one over on you. You did the right thing when you told him he couldn't afford you. GOOG FOR YOU He probably underbids jobs just to get them.


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## fnltch

I guess i should of explained it out better. I work full-time as a maintance specialist for a nursing home and then plow snow for my other clients after my full time job. My job pays rent on my truck at 65.00 per hour ( last years figure higher this year on account of fuel prices) and then they pay me my regular salary to operate the plow. I usually charge 30.00 per push for residental customers for drives and 15.00 to 20.00 extra for walks. If I have to get out of my comfort controlled enviroment then they are going to pay more .I still base my other commercial clients at 65.00 per hour. And then add for snow fall amounts.


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