# KBi Kranking Kart



## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

For those that have a mix of 24V and 12V machines, this is an unsolicited/uncompensated plug for the Kold Ban International Kranking Kart.

https://www.koldban.com/KrankingKART_s/34.htm

I was buying parts to repair the ether injection on my brooms, as 2 out of the 4 systems were inop, and noticed they had a predecessor to this device. I have many 24v machines, and it is a pain when the batteries are dead, as generally there isn't another 24V machine handy to use as a jumping source. I called to buy one, and they informed me that while they would sell me one, they were coming out with a version with next-generation capacitors. I waited, and got one.

I finally got to use it last week. One of my articulated trucks had a dead battery where it was parked in the middle of a field when I went to get it to put a plow on it. It was so dead not even the dash lights came on, and it was about 25F. Normally, I would have pulled out the batteries, taken them inside, charged them, reinstalled, and started, delaying things by half a day in total.

This time, I set the KrankingKart up as a 12V, charged it from my Subaru for 45 seconds or so, switched to 24V, carried it to the truck (it only weighs about 40 lb) hooked it to the truck and it started on the second crank. I give it 2 thumbs up.

It says it's for engines up to 8 liters, but it cranked the Scania DS9 easily.

It only gives 15 or 20 seconds of cranking, but if your engine doesn't start in that time, it probably won't start anyway.

It wasn't cheap, at $1800, but it only needs to help out a dozen or so times before it's paid for itself in aggravation (at least to me).

As a bonus, you can use it for 6V machines as well...Discharge it through a headlight, put it on 24V, charge it on the 24V setting while hooked up to a 12V source, change it to a 12V setting, which will give you 6V for cranking. I checked with Kold Ban and they indicated that it was perfectly acceptable to do that.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Really dumb, ignorant question. 

Couldn't you just strap two 12v batteries wired in series to a cart and add some jumper cables to do the same thing? And they could be recharged on a standard shop charger. Or am I missing something?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

cwren2472 said:


> Really dumb, ignorant question.
> 
> Couldn't you just strap two 12v batteries wired in series to a cart and add some jumper cables to do the same thing? And they could be recharged on a standard shop charger. Or am I missing something?


You could, and people do. But using batteries gets heavy and expensive quickly.

For example, if I use interstate C78DT-XHD batteries, which are rated at 800CCA (versus their normal group 24s at 600 or so CCA), I would need at least 6, and probably 8, to make 3000CCA at 24V. That's $900 to $1200 in batteries and 270-360 lb. Then you add in a charging system to keep them ready to go, and to me, I'd rather have something I can pick up and carry in one hand and not have to worry about having everything charged up or a battery cell in one of the 6 or 8 go dead.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Batteries are the Bain of my existence. I only have 2 that I'm not sure this would handle and they are both in the backhoe.
I picked it up for $320 Cdn.it is supposed to do a 10 litre diesel 80 times without needing a charge, we'll see internet...we'll see!


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Deleted


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 188717
> Batteries are the Bain of my existence. I only have 2 that I'm not sure this would handle and they are both in the backhoe.
> I picked it up for $320 Cdn.it is supposed to do a 10 litre diesel 80 times without needing a charge, we'll see internet...we'll see!


If it's the same model as mine, it won't. I'll have to check.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I've got one of these. It's heavy and should be wider. Plus if someone doesn't plug it in, it takes a while to charge. But it has started everything we've tried even when the charger won't.









I'd be very interested in something that charges in 45 seconds.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

It was uncharged when I started, so no risk while transporting. 

I used my Subaru to charge it by holding a charge switch down, checked the voltage, and then changed the leads to the 24V connection. The 12/24 selection is not a switch, it's like a tow truck jump connection, one labeled 12V, one 24V. 

It cranked the 250 hp diesel like it was nothing. Fortunately, for an engine without ether or glow plug/glow element the DS 9 starts well. If it cranks, it starts.

According to Kold Ban, if you have a low battery, you can even charge it with that and then use it to jump the vehicle you charged it from. I'm a bit dubious on that, and haven't had the right circumstance to try it. The reason, theoretically, that it would work is that since it is capacitor based it can produce a lot of current without dropping the voltage. So while your battery based system may go to 9 or 10V while cranking, the capacitor will stay pretty much at the charging voltage for the first few seconds, which is critical. 

You have a pickle switch that you depress as you start to crank, which allows the capacitor to fire. While a bit cumbersome, it also means you can't blow yourself up by touching the hot and ground lead accidentally. That's bad enough with a battery. With a capacitor it would truly be spectacular, and not in a good way.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 188717
> Batteries are the Bain of my existence. I only have 2 that I'm not sure this would handle and they are both in the backhoe.
> I picked it up for $320 Cdn.it is supposed to do a 10 litre diesel 80 times without needing a charge, we'll see internet...we'll see!


I haven't used one of these. I have two of their chargers and like them, but this is only 12V, so I didn't consider it. Noco has a 12/24V one, but it is $4K.

The other difference I see is that the Noco needs to be recharged from a wall, whereas the Kold Ban uses a vehicle for charging, such as the one you drove in with, the one you just started, or a garden tractor, etc. (that would probably take longer than 45 seconds).


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 188717
> Batteries are the Bain of my existence. I only have 2 that I'm not sure this would handle and they are both in the backhoe.
> I picked it up for $320 Cdn.it is supposed to do a 10 litre diesel 80 times without needing a charge, we'll see internet...we'll see!


I did some math, and I'm a bit dubious.

Assuming that a starter takes 600 Amps, at 12V, that is 7200 Watts. 22,500 Joules = 7200 Watts * 3.125 seconds.
3.125 seconds/80 cranks = 40 milliseconds per crank.

They must be assuming you have a lot of help from the vehicle battery.

If it enough to crank what you need, great. The Noco will also charge your cell phone and provide 12V power for a while, which the Kold Ban will not, as it is purely a starting aid.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 188717
> Batteries are the Bain of my existence. I only have 2 that I'm not sure this would handle and they are both in the backhoe.
> I picked it up for $320 Cdn.it is supposed to do a 10 litre diesel 80 times without needing a charge, we'll see internet...we'll see!


Have been using that one for the past two years. Not one complaint. Holds charge well, been able to start everything we have hooked it to. Including some equipment that could really use some new glow plugs.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

The noco comes with a aux charger for the vehicle as well. I know it’s not the same as the 24 volt but I only got it today and most of my stuff is 12 with the exception of the backhoe. I have to see whether it is up to the task. It is pretty compact, and all the reviews were stellar so I gambled on it. It is supposed to do multiple starts, and the charge is suppose to last for quite a while, months if not used. From what I read the unit can stay plugged in to keep a charge, the initial charge is estimated @ 11 hrs. I have been impressed with my smaller noco chargers refurbishing my 12 volt batteries.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 188717
> Batteries are the Bain of my existence. I only have 2 that I'm not sure this would handle and they are both in the backhoe.
> I picked it up for $320 Cdn.it is supposed to do a 10 litre diesel 80 times without needing a charge, we'll see internet...we'll see!





Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 188717
> Batteries are the Bain of my existence. I only have 2 that I'm not sure this would handle and they are both in the backhoe.
> I picked it up for $320 Cdn.it is supposed to do a 10 litre diesel 80 times without needing a charge, we'll see internet...we'll see!


Snagged one for$214 US on black Friday, bought a pair of the GB70's and a NoCo charger too. So far so good.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I did some math, and I'm a bit dubious.
> 
> Assuming that a starter takes 600 Amps, at 12V, that is 7200 Watts. 22,500 Joules = 7200 Watts * 3.125 seconds.
> 3.125 seconds/80 cranks = 40 milliseconds per crank.
> ...


Look @Mark Oomkes more math!!!


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

The batteries still need to be changed after the jump.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Mr.Markus said:


> The noco comes with a aux charger for the vehicle as well. I know it's not the same as the 24 volt but I only got it today and most of my stuff is 12 with the exception of the backhoe. I have to see whether it is up to the task. It is pretty compact, and all the reviews were stellar so I gambled on it. It is supposed to do multiple starts, and the charge is suppose to last for quite a while, months if not used. From what I read the unit can stay plugged in to keep a charge, the initial charge is estimated @ 11 hrs. I have been impressed with my smaller noco chargers refurbishing my 12 volt batteries.


I like the Noco chargers. I have the G26000 for 24V and large 12V and the G3500 for smaller 12V and 6V batteries.

One feature on the G26000 I really like is the "jump charge" which allows you to supply 30A of power to a battery for 5 minutes. This works well for batteries so dead most smart chargers won't recognize it and allow you to charge them.

There is also a power supply mode on the G26000 which will supply 13.6V at 15 or so amps continuously so you can run car or aircraft systems without discharging the battery.

I don't like the fact that the jump charge and power supply is only available in 12V.

I don't care that there is no jump start mode, since most chargers can only put out 100 amps or so, which is not enough to do anything for a big engine.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

1olddogtwo said:


> The batteries still need to be changed after the jump.


Yep, but it allowed me to drive the truck close to a building so I could run an extension cord and 24V charger to it, which I prefer to letting the alternator charge it.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Corrections....
The web page I had looked at when starting this thread said 8 liters, so that's what I stated up top. It was weird, as I knew when I bought it that the DS 9 was 9 liters, so I did some web-digging. Turns out there was a typo and the web page should have said 18 liters. That helps explains why it spun a cold 9 liter easily.

Also, the weight of the 12/24V combination unit is 52 lb. 37 lb. is for a 12V or a 24V single voltage unit.

https://www.koldban.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/documents/KKJR_General GEN 3 w12.24.pdf


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## zlssefi (Dec 29, 2011)

I purchased a 12v 24v rescue jump pack years ago. When i first bought it it would whip over a dead td122 volvo l180 engine like it was in florida. IT has since lost some of its snap, and i think the battery inside may be getting lazy on me. I paid 289.99 when i bought it and with that being said if i had to throw it away tomorrow, it wouldnt owe me a dime. I like the idea of this cranking kart, but the price tag has me keeping my distance.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I found one of them old start all gas powered jump starters at auction. Heavy it's got a good size Koeler on it but has a cart.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

zlssefi said:


> I purchased a 12v 24v rescue jump pack years ago. When i first bought it it would whip over a dead td122 volvo l180 engine like it was in florida. IT has since lost some of its snap, and i think the battery inside may be getting lazy on me. I paid 289.99 when i bought it and with that being said if i had to throw it away tomorrow, it wouldnt owe me a dime. I like the idea of this cranking kart, but the price tag has me keeping my distance.


It's definitely spendy.

If everything was always by my hangar, where I could wheel a heavy cart out, I'd probably pass on it.

However, if you need something in the back seat of your car that you can lift with one hand and carry to the middle of a mud patch if you had to, that will start a large truck, loader, etc., without strain, and will do either 12 or 24V systems, and never needs to be plugged in or recharged, the price starts to look pretty good.

Since many people on here have equipment staged on site, I figured it might be useful.

I had to use it again last weekend, since one of the truck batteries had a bad cell (0 V after 2 days charging). Hooked up in freezing weather, and the truck fired right up so I could bring it inside to change the battery.

Spendy, but for me, worth it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I think I'm going to be investing in one of these...could have used it...twice this morning.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I think I'm going to be investing in one of these...could have used it...twice this morning.


Same here, without getting into details, I had a failed Rd call jumpstart Thursday. But no one told me that the truck had been sitting for five weeks with a refrigerator running. Batteries were at 0 volts. This was supposed to be a 5 minute job. I couldn't stay as my time was already promised elsewhere.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Yesterday morning, @Mark Oomkes asked me what I thought of this unit (the largest Start-All jump pack) in the random thoughts thread. I indicated that I wasn't familiar with the unit but would look at it later.










Here are my thoughts....

As a disclaimer, I have not examined the system personally, or been able to locate any real test data online. I could not locate a user manual online.

Goodall is now owned by Vanair.

While browsing on the web looking for technical details, I have seen this pack for about $700.

The problem with the labeling on this jump pack, and other similar units, is that the peak amps sound great, but it is for a very short time (less than 200 ms in this case) with an unspecified resistance or back emf from the battery, and so is irrelevant except to the marketing department.

The Goodall "commercial" starting units are typically 1000 amps or less, and the larger capacitor systems are typically about 3000-4000 amps delivery. If you can deliver 3000 amps while maintaining 10V, that is 30,000 Watts.

A closer look at the specifications for the Start-All indicates that it can deliver 133200J over a 5 second period, for an average of 26640 Watts. 6 maximum capacity starts will completely discharge the battery, since the capacity is 238.6 watt-hours, or 859000J. It would then probably take several hours to recharge.

The power delivery for the start-all is better than the Noco GB150, which delivers 22500J over 3 seconds, for an average of 7433 Watts.

The Noco GB500 is about the same as the Startall, at 80000J over 3 seconds, or 26666 Watts. It has a 266 watt-hour battery. It will jump both 12 and 24V systems. It costs $1200 on the street, with a current $2K list price.

Thus, looking just at the li-ion, if you only need to jump either 12V or 24V systems, a Start-All jump pack of the appropriate voltage is cheaper. If you need to be able to start both voltages, a single GB500 would be cheaper.

The Nocos provide another example of the marketing numbers splashed on the cover as being irrelevant. The GB 500 is supposedly capable of 400 starts before recharging. However, with a 266 watt hour (957600 J) battery, this indicates that each start takes 2394J, on average. If true, then who cares about an 80000J rating. If one actually needs 80,000J per attempt, the battery is only good for 11 starts.

I don't know if the Start-All will do what a capacitor start pack will do, but it is cheaper than a capacitor unit or the GB-500 and more capable than the GB-150 which is limited in capability based on reports of users on this site.

I personally don't care about the USB charger ports or 12V lighter ports, since they seem to me to be more consumer oriented gimmicks that add cost and complexity but no real value. The light might be useful if you don't have a flashlight, but the flashing feature also seems gimmicky.

If I only had to jump infrequently and only needed 12V, I'd probably give the Start-all a try. I would keep it in a warm place, since battery capacity is temperature dependent.

If I had to jump a lot, or needed 24V, or didn't have space to keep it in the heated cab of a truck, I'd probably stick with the capacitor system. My Kold Ban system has worked well every time I have needed it, and the ability to recharge from a 12V car in a minute or less and jump a 24V piece of heavy equipment with a battery with at least dead/shorted cell is worth the extra cost to me.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I’ve never seen a dead, & cold diesel start in three seconds. ? 
Maybe you would get a few rattles and chugs out of it then nothing.

How much cranking time does it offer ?
Three seconds of power doesn’t seem like enough..


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thanks, that was pretty much what I was looking for...not wasting my money.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

The newer diesels, at least. The ECM needs to see oil pressure, fuel pressure, and if its common rail, the engine has to be cranking fast enough to build high fuel pressure. It ain't gonna start in two seconds. Just my opinion anyway.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

http://www.portacharger.com/12v-dc-portable-generators/portacharger-pc1240.php


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Hydromaster said:


> I've never seen a dead, & cold diesel start in three seconds. ?
> Maybe you would get a few rattles and chugs out of it then nothing.
> 
> How much cranking time does it offer ?
> Three seconds of power doesn't seem like enough..


Both the lithium-ion based packs and the capacitor based packs are short on details, as noted.

I haven't used a li-ion based pack.

With the capacitor system, I haven't had any problems starting either the Scania in my articulated truck when it was 10F, and so dead it wouldn't even allow the overhead light in the cab to glow, or the Detroit 671T for one of my brooms (the block heater was plugged in, and I did NOT use the ether injection). I didn't time any of my start attempts.

I wouldn't expect any jump starter to start a dead cold diesel that wouldn't start with a charged battery.... e.g. would just produce 2 seconds of smoke after 10 seconds of cranking.

However, I like the capacitor based system since that can be recharged quickly for a 5th or 10th try, using the unsuccessful compression to warm up the combustion chamber somewhat. Just make sure to give the starter motor sufficient cooldown time.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Randall Ave said:


> The newer diesels, at least. The ECM needs to see oil pressure, fuel pressure, and if its common rail, the engine has to be cranking fast enough to build high fuel pressure. It ain't gonna start in two seconds. Just my opinion anyway.


Although I don't have a common rail system in any of my equipment, and an ECM only on the broom chassis motors, this is one reason I would tend to lean toward capacitor systems in general.

With an ECM controlling the engine, it's not enough just to crank, you need to spin it fast enough to generate the required signals while maintaining the voltage to the ECM. No battery will provide a discharge current available from a capacitor... Hence the battery pack using 1/0 wire and the capacitor system that I have using 4/0 wire.

Do you ever use a jump pack of any type on your road calls, or just a cable from your truck's electrical system?


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Although I don't have a common rail system in any of my equipment, and an ECM only on the broom chassis motors, this is one reason I would tend to lean toward capacitor systems in general.
> 
> With an ECM controlling the engine, it's not enough just to crank, you need to spin it fast enough to generate the required signals while maintaining the voltage to the ECM. No battery will provide a discharge current available from a capacitor... Hence the battery pack using 1/0 wire and the capacitor system that I have using 4/0 wire.
> 
> Do you ever use a jump pack of any type on your road calls, or just a cable from your truck's electrical system?


Nope, just jumper cables. And I have a long set of battery cables made up so it can connect extra new batteries into the system if needed. The jump pack when I looked was around a grand. Could not justify the purchase at the time.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Once again I am totally underwhelmed with my Noco GB150. Sidewalk guy left the lights on in the EyeSewEwe. Threw the Noco on it and got bizzie. First time I did I had to leave it on for 10 minutes before it would start. So I thought I would do the same thing.

A half hour or so later, I remembered and went back and it wouldn't start. Said screw it and pulled my booster pack on wheels out there and bada bing, bada boom it started.

Maybe I should read the owner's manual, but so far this thing is a flaming piece of crap other than being a huge battery pack for my cell phone. I've tried it as a "charging pack" and booster pack and it doesn't seem to do either.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Once again I am totally underwhelmed with my Noco GB150. Sidewalk guy left the lights on in the EyeSewEwe. Threw the Noco on it and got bizzie. First time I did I had to leave it on for 10 minutes before it would start. So I thought I would do the same thing.
> 
> A half hour or so later, I remembered and went back and it wouldn't start. Said screw it and pulled my booster pack on wheels out there and bada bing, bada boom it started.
> 
> Maybe I should read the owner's manual, but so far this thing is a flaming piece of crap other than being a huge battery pack for my cell phone. I've tried it as a "charging pack" and booster pack and it doesn't seem to do either.


Does the digital display show up when you connect it to the truck? If the battery is completely discharged, it won't register that the pack is connected and won't try to jump unless you press the "!" button. If it can't detect the voltage, it can't tell that you weren't enough of a moron to hook positive to negative.

The first time I gave it to my boss, it didn't work at all and he complained to me. I asked "did you make sure the display was on? Cuz I'm sure you didn't read the instructions."

Him: "Please. I think i know how to use a jump pack."

Spoiler alert: he didn't.

We used it to jump an L8000 once and it worked fine (batteries not completely discharged though)


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Heck if I know...the battery isn't dead and I don't recall what it showed. The first time when I let it sit for 5-10 minutes it fired up. This time it did nothing. 

Like I said before, I readily admit I don't have the patience to use a so called booster pack as a charger pack. I expect this thing to act as a booster pack, guess I should adjust my expectations. I would never recommend one to someone.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Once again I am totally underwhelmed with my Noco GB150. Sidewalk guy left the lights on in the EyeSewEwe. Threw the Noco on it and got bizzie. First time I did I had to leave it on for 10 minutes before it would start. So I thought I would do the same thing.
> 
> A half hour or so later, I remembered and went back and it wouldn't start. Said screw it and pulled my booster pack on wheels out there and bada bing, bada boom it started.
> 
> Maybe I should read the owner's manual, but so far this thing is a flaming piece of crap other than being a huge battery pack for my cell phone. I've tried it as a "charging pack" and booster pack and it doesn't seem to do either.


I have one of their battery chargers, not to impressed with it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Randall Ave said:


> I have one of their battery chargers, not to impressed with it.


Maybe you need a MBCJ to tell you how it works...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Maybe you need a MBCJ to tell you how it works...


I've been charging these two 8-Ds for two days. Stop by and we'll stuff em in your Dodge, hopefully no voltage drop for you.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I know the Kranking Kart is expensive, but the lack of aggravation is worth it to me.

For example, a few weeks ago I decided to move the truck so I could get an air hose to it to check tire pressures. 

It was not that cold....in the 20s.

Battery was dead, due to my stupidity...no start for 6 months and a keep alive circuit.

Walked back to the hangar, grabbed the Kart and carried it one handed to the truck. 

About 1 minute to hook it up.

Hit the trigger and the key.

Rrr-Rrr-Vroom. About 3 seconds.

After I got the truck to the hangar, I took the batteries out to see if they could be saved (12v in series). Both were scrap.


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