# Nationals



## acrajchel (Aug 21, 2016)

So I am a new member, but have been reading and following along other posts for a while now. I am a small company looking to get into snow work. It seems that going with a property management group would be the easiest way to break into this area, at least around me where I have company that has been around for 150 years and gets all the local contracts.

But, I do know that there aren't many people fond of Nationals on here. Is there any National or Regional property management companies that I can work with that don't have the reputation of stiffing you on the bill, making you wait 3 months to get paid, etc.? I'm in Central Kentucky.

Thanks


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Talk with your bigger local companies. Many of them have more work than they can handle, so they hire subs. I personally would work for a local company before a national, just because of their reputation.


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

Working for a national is cutting your own throat. 

JMH is spot on with his advice.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

X3, What about equipment for snow work? You got one piece or two ready for work? Are you insured correctly? Subs need insurance to. Good Luck


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Have you ever performed snow and ice management before?


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## acrajchel (Aug 21, 2016)

I am currently insured for lawn care and landscaping. The only reason I say that is that for lawn care, $1M liability is what the standard seems to be, but someone else on here had indicated that $2M was what was needed for snow. I currently have a 2005 Ford F-350 6.0 Dually with the X-springs and upgraded cooling system to handle the plow. I am in the process now of deciding what plow to get and purchasing. I have worked in snow and ice management before for some of the larger landscaping companies around me. Thanks for the advice on contacting them for sub work rather than a national. On the plus side, I already have received RFPs for 7 apartments complexes, 2 restaurants, and a small factory for snow and ice, as well as lawn care and landscaping. So, I may not need to worry about sub work. The only other thing I am considering is signing up with my city for snow work. They have a program where they bring on independents to help post-event with plowing tertiary streets.

Any thoughts?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

price out insurance., (yes, most carry 1 to 2m)
and the added cost to plow public streets.

Then do you have a back up plan for when your truck or plow are broken-down?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

acrajchel said:


> I am currently insured for lawn care and landscaping. The only reason I say that is that for lawn care, $1M liability is what the standard seems to be, but someone else on here had indicated that $2M was what was needed for snow. I currently have a 2005 Ford F-350 6.0 Dually with the X-springs and upgraded cooling system to handle the plow. I am in the process now of deciding what plow to get and purchasing. I have worked in snow and ice management before for some of the larger landscaping companies around me. Thanks for the advice on contacting them for sub work rather than a national. On the plus side, I already have received RFPs for 7 apartments complexes, 2 restaurants, and a small factory for snow and ice, as well as lawn care and landscaping. So, I may not need to worry about sub work. The only other thing I am considering is signing up with my city for snow work. They have a program where they bring on independents to help post-event with plowing tertiary streets.
> 
> Any thoughts?


$2M for snow especially since you're looking at restaurants/retail and apartments.

What ever plow you go with make sure it's 9' wide so your training wheels don't track on your windrow as mulch.

Depending on the size of the apartment complexes along with the amount walks/steps you can have your hands full with just them. Shoveling walks with vehicles parked against the curb along with shoveling stairs is a PITA and time consuming. You'll never clean the whole lot due to parked cars, you'll have issues with melt then refreezing requiring close attention given to ice management. Stacking piles could also be an issue since most don't have a lot of spaced.
Restaurants have similar issues as apartment complexes but with more traffic to deal with.

Small factory's / industrial property's are IMO probably the best to plow.


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## acrajchel (Aug 21, 2016)

Forgot to mention, I won't be doing sidewalks at the apartments. The maintenance guys do those. I may help them with walks at the end of the event if they need it.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

acrajchel said:


> Forgot to mention, I won't be doing sidewalks at the apartments. The maintenance guys do those. I may help them with walks at the end of the event if they need it.


If your not contracted to do sidewalks I would not touch them. What if somebody slips and falls on the section you helped with? Don't think they won't pass the buck.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

What Fred said. Some old lady falls and breaks a hip, your responsable also.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

how so?
in MN

In order to win a slip and fall case, you must be able to prove that the property owner / contractor was negligent (i.e., that the property/contractor owner did something wrong). Simply because you slipped and fell on someone’s property (or on public property like a sidewalk) does not mean that the property owner was negligent. And the fact that the sidewalk was in a condition that caused you to slip does not automatically mean that the property owner or the municipality was negligent.

So, what's the key? First, the sidewalk had to have been in an unreasonably unsafe condition. Then, in order to prove that the property owner was negligent, you must prove that the property owner knew or should reasonably have known that the sidewalk was unreasonably unsafe.


ps, judges, juries are reluctant to award compensation to someone who slips on ice in Minnesota or Wisconsin in the winter.
when it comes to snow and ice removal, what is reasonable to expect of a landowner -- and what a person using the sidewalk should reasonably expect to encounter -- may depend on where the slip and fall accident occurred. In other words, what is reasonable in Minnesota is not the same as what is reasonable in north Alabama. And in some states, there is what's known as a "natural accumulation" rule, which relieves a property owner of liability in connection with the natural accumulation of snow and ice, in most cases. As long as the property owner didn't interfere with or alter the accumulation, and as long as no abnormal danger exists, it will be difficult to hold the property owner/contractor liable in states that follow this rule.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Sno, I agree, My point was if not contracted to do walks why take the risk or effort if not getting paid. I know some shamster is not going to pull the wool over a judge and jury's eyes. Around here your carrier will settle for smaller sums of money to avoid litigation fee's etc. Somebody is disabled, elderly, or another thing that I won't say publicly could make a difference in the outcome.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG said:


> Sno, I agree, My point was if not contracted to do walks why take the risk or effort if not getting paid. I know some shamster is not going to pull the wool over a judge and jury's eyes. Around here your carrier will settle for smaller sums of money to avoid litigation fee's etc. Somebody is disabled, elderly, or another thing that I won't say publicly could make a difference in the outcome.


yes if not contracted to do so why would you.

on the other subject even the handicapped have responsibility.
a personal defect is no excuse not to know snow or ice is slippery and to be aware of ones short comings.
this does not shift any liability on to the owner or contractor as the law is blind.
the law still stands.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Just to bolster my position.
Some say their INS will just pay, this is a myth.

Most plaintiffs' attorneys would agree that slip and falls are not very easy cases to win - even when the ice and snow are daunting or, more precisely, because the ice and snow are daunting
And, judges and juries are well aware, there's nothing more open and obvious than a Minnesota winter.

A property owner has a duty to keep his or her premises safe, but the practicalities of the weather are built in to that standard. The question in a snow- or ice-related case is whether the maintenance was reasonable and done within a reasonable time. (Reasonable time means that the property owner can wait until at least the storm ends to shovel and a reasonable amount of time thereafter.)

with a commercial defendant such as a retail store, it can be most helpful to the plaintiff to have some facts besides snow and ice, such as bad lighting or a_* hazard artificially created*_ by the defendant.

*"hazard artificially created"*
this is key.

defending retailers can be difficult where the ice freezes and thaws throughout the day, observed Duluth attorney Nicholas Ostapenko, who joked that slip-and-falls are the local specialty. Those retailers need to keep on top of the changing sidewalk condition, which can be a difficult task, he said.
On the other hand, continued Ostapenko, area judges are practical about ice and snow. "You've got an uphill battle as a plaintiff in Duluth," he said. That's especially true if the defendant can find a way to have the case tried in the winter, he added

The defendant has no duty to do anything until the hazardous weather has cleared up and so the climatological data may be important evidence, he noted.
Once the snow or rain has subsided, the defendant still must have actual or constructive notice of the condition in order for a duty to arise

Arden Hills attorney Richard Thomas, who generally represents both plaintiffs and defendants, said that he does not take plaintiffs' slip-and-fall cases because jurors tend to be so tough on them. "I've defended five slip-and-falls at trial and lost none. I expect to never lose one," said Thomas.

Thomas sees slip-and-falls as a win-win for the defendant in most cases. "I get to ask the plaintiff my favorite deposition question - did you see the hazard? If the plaintiff says yes or no, it's a win," said Thomas. If the plaintiff saw the hazard, he or she shouldn't have walked there; if he didn't see it, he wasn't looking and the plaintiff himself was negligent, explained Thomas.

just say"en


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I agree with your statements. Everybody should use caution on snow and ice. Slip and fall been successfully litigated for the plaintiff and defendant. The OP would be taking a unnecessary risk. I would think the Op would be heading where he can earn some $$, Not worry about the maintenance men doing sidewalk that are behind. No its not likely if snow has been removed and salt is present.


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