# Help! National Contract and No Clue...



## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

Hey all, I found this site by chance. I work for one of those annoying national companies that sub out to contractors (although we are not anyone huge and we pay our billls). I had this national bid thrown on my desk last minute and it covers territories like IN, NY, OH, CO, IL, KY, NJ, MD, MI, OH, WI, WV and 463 locations. Here is my issue, this bid was thrown at me last minute. Anytime I call to get pricing, they did not release the square footage of the lots on the excel spread sheet for these locations, this bid is due on Monday so there is no way for companies to site inspect all different areas and locations so I haven't been able to get any pricing. But I desperately need help pricing out the following...Cost/Push 2" to 4" of snow	Cost/Push 5" to 6" of snow	Cost/Push 7" and over of snow	Cost/Hour: Snow Removal From Site (by front-end loader and dump truck)	"On-Call" parking Lot Salting (By Sq. Ft.)	"On-Call" Sidewalk Clearing & Salting (By Sq. Ft.). Is there anyone who has any ideas on how to help? Do I have to know the square footage? I am out of my element here and we are even willing to work with companies that self perform...this is just a nightmare...Thank you in advance.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

If you want to continue to pay your bills,pass on this and bid it next yr when you are prepared.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Good luck with that impossible request


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

What company are you with?


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

A national facilities company, but we are out of Columbus, OH. And I am not sure that passing is an option that I can do without my boss being ridiculously mad at me for not getting it done. There is no way to price out at all?


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

No way to ACCURATELY price it. There are WAY too many variables and you are WAY short on time. You need someone from each location to visit each site and they can bid the property. Trying to figure a price on a property from several hundred or a thousand miles away is not a good idea....for ANYONE.

Why cant you reveal the company you work for?


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

So there is no way for me to figure out pricing with out knowing the size of the parking lot based on an hourly rate?


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

I can, I just prefer not to in case my boss come across the thread. I am just the grunt trying to figure out how to do this request...


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

If your good you should know how long it would take to plow it with Google maps. Besides your bid is to high no matter what you give them.


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

MJack;1826876 said:


> So there is no way for me to figure out pricing with out knowing the size of the parking lot based on an hourly rate?


No. You think your boss would be pissed if you told him you cant quote this??? How pissed is he gonna be when you pull numbers out of the sky, land the contract, cant hire anyone to perform the job, but hire some rummy company to try and manage it only to be fired mid season?? Then you have above mentioned rummy company suing you for wages you cant pay??

Not being rude....just honest. Walk away


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

You're going to get zero help if you don't post up who you work for, and possibly even the job sites. 

Look at it this way:
You post up the info, guys here help you out (assuming it isn't a national that has screwed people), and even have some here take on the local accounts. 

Your call, but you aren't likely to get far without that info and the clock is ticking. You have a little over 3 days to figure it out, not us.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Good luck. Start throwing darts at the wall


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

you can measure all the sites using google maps or software programs like Ilawns. You have to assume that you will use 3/4 ton or ton pickups. You can also assume that you will pay the prevailing wage for union work which is available for different locations. You can also get a few salt suppliers to quote deliveries to multiple sites but you can't predict how much each area uses easily. Also insurance costs will vary according to states such as workmen's compensation. You also have to consider how much interest costs are to float this operation and what happens in a super storm. You won't win the bid and make money on such short notice unless you have been doing this a long time. Best bet, show your boss that you are trying to put together a package that makes good business sense. It might take you three years to put together a package that covers all the areas. Hardest thing is building trust with sub contractors who actually do the work.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Dude killed when he said national. 

Basic what you asking is for the knife to cut our throats

National isn't something you will get help here on PS. You must know what's up by the 1st post. You know, referring to....you pay. National vendors like yourself (good or bad) are all grouped together as the enemy and downfall of the industry. True or not, that's how its perceived here on PS. I'm sure the same is said about us from the other side of the coin.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

"Cost/Push 2" to 4" of snow	Cost/Push 5" to 6" of snow	Cost/Push 7" and over of snow	Cost/Hour: Snow Removal From Site (by front-end loader and dump truck)	"On-Call" parking Lot Salting (By Sq. Ft.)	"On-Call" Sidewalk Clearing & Salting (By Sq. Ft.). Is there anyone who has any ideas on how to help? Do I have to know the square footage? I am out of my element here and we are even willing to work with companies that self perform...this is just a nightmare...Thank you in advance."

Size would be nice to know because if they are big you will need big equipment. 

Anyway here is some info for you, I am going to say one acre for the size.
43560 sq feet. Some junk in the way.

Per push 2"-4" $216Thumbs Up
5" - 6" $432 Because I am going to plow it twice 
over 7" $648 Because I am going to plow it three times / $216 for each extra 3 inches. 

This is what I can get here after a "Big company" had done it for the lowball price. You get what you pay for. Can't help you with Sidewalks because I do not do them by the foot or with salt as I sub that out. I will not bid per hour.:waving:


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

The company I work for is called AFM and I can't post all the job sites bc there are 463 of them. I understand some of the mistrust with national companies and hate that there are companies out there that do not pay their subs. I am not the operations person who would decide this, I am just the person who's desk this got put on asking for advice bc I know nothing about it. It's not something we do specifically but we sub contract out for which I agree is really just a huge waste of time bc of all the variables. I know I can log on and try to scout the sites by addresses but most lots are close to the same bc they are for a fast food restaurant. I am just asking if there is any way I can get answers and if not then I'm just going to have to tell my boss that this is a huge time waster and not possible. But I wanted to see if there was any advice if I map and try to get the squire footage for all 463 locations since I have no experience with this type of thing.


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

AFM stands for?????

Do you have window cleaner subs? If so I think I found your company.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

findlotsize.com
works for getting the size.


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

Sorry, I'm typing on my phone, RSM Maintenance ( RSM) stands for rob, Steve and Mike the three brothers that it is named for. And I also meant square footage. Also, I've haven't used find lot size so thank you! I am not sure if you can map the actual area or just the general area? Do you know? And once I get the square footage, is there a formula to figure out the rest?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Best of luck.


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

Use lot size to determine, but then need to figure a few other things. Now all we need is the name of the restaurant. As in I can tell you what it would run in my area since I do 14 stores for a fast food chain. So I know its not that one, lol.


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't understand why you people had to know what company he works for? You are not going to help him anyway. And don't take your frustration on nationals our on this guy. He's just trying to do his job like the rest of us. I commend him for thinking outside of the box and trying to get some answers.


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

Wilnip;1826977 said:


> I don't understand why you people had to know what company he works for? You are not going to help him anyway. And don't take your frustration on nationals our on this guy. He's just trying to do his job like the rest of us. I commend him for thinking outside of the box and trying to get some answers.


If he's with a national that is known for screwing us, why would we be apt to help him? So yes it's a key part of information.

Everyone wants to take a stand against nationals, so naturally he is considered an enemy. However if he is open to our input we might be able to help the guy and pick up some work for us at a fair rate instead of another national trying to get us to work for pennies.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Wilnip;1826977 said:


> I don't understand why you people had to know what company he works for? You are not going to help him anyway. And don't take your frustration on nationals our on this guy. He's just trying to do his job like the rest of us. I commend him for thinking outside of the box and trying to get some answers.


Nothing was aimed at him personal, just enlighten now.

I truly do appreciate people who think outside the box


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

1olddogtwo;1826983 said:


> Nothing was aimed at him personal, just enlighten now.


Exactly. This is a chance for both sides to prevail...if the guy is open to our input.


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

First off, I am a girl! Lol and secondly, I am not trying to cause any issues just a girl who needs help and wants help. I do think outside the box and read considerable content of the posts. I doubt you will find many nationals that do. Secondly, I should be no ones enemy, I have a national project that I am looking for help on, which in turn can transfer into some work, if you don't want to work with a national company you don't have to, but I am not sure how else to get help in all different areas and territories and since we can't perform the work then that means I have to go to companies that self perform. But I don't know a lot of self performing snow removal companies so either way the scope of work is a national contract and if your company is regional then you would still potentially have a chance to participate when you might not have otherwise. If not then why is the fast food company trying to put out an national RFP. They may not have time to manage the whole scope of work which is why they call us. I know the process sucks for smaller companies and we pay our contractors as soon as we get paid. That is where the problem can occurs bc some retailers or restaurant have terms over net 30/45 so we always try to pay our contractors even before we get paid. It's a situation where it can become a win win as long as you build communication and long standing relationships with your subs and are fair. I dunno just replying to everything that I have read.


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

Fair enough, but just as a heads up. No one cares you're a girl. I only say this as it wont garner any favors or leniency. Not saying you're doing this, but it has happened as recent as a week ago, and it doesn't go they way they intended (free advice, etc). 

If you'd like, you can email me with which company this is for, and I can tell you the going rate for my area. Again this is meant as an offer to be mutually beneficial. You need 10 post before you can pm, but if you are interested then I will post my email here so you don't have to post it on an open forum.

Edit:

The only reason I am willing to offer up help is because after some searching, I haven't found anything on your company screwing contractors.


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

Also, taking a stand against national companies isn't the problem. The problem remains on the procurement side of commercial. Bc of the down turn in the economy a lot of retail companies and restaurant companies have cut their staff and their budgets wanting more for less. So their staff that onced sourced all the different locations are probably no longer there, and they have more work and less time which is why they get involved with nationals. I hear it all the time talking to the facilities guys on the commercial side of things. It's not that they don't want to use self performers or smaller companies, it's that they don't have the time to manage the process and they report to operations who give them small budgets and scopes to work within. I don't mind if I have priced out rates, bc that is what I would be submitting them as. It's considered a specialty trade and they good thing about national
Companies is that we have workers company and insurance where we can cover our subs whereas some of the smaller companies may not even be able to do that. I have a lot of retail and restaurant contacts who handle facilities that talk about it all the time. It's a lose lose bc the national companies want to make money off of your services and the work you perform just as you want to make money for your rates. My ultimate advice would be if you can't afford to lower your rates then stick to them and the problem being the other regional companies that are willing to perform the work for pennies on the dollars. Then you lose out bc someone was willing to work at a bare minimum cost whereas if there was a standard cost all around with some price difference here and there that wouldn't happen. Nationals are here to put anyone out of business or not pay anyone, a national companies should forge relationships so that they can return to those companies, grow the relationship and as they get more business bring you the business... Just trying to explain what I seem to hear all the time from all sides...


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

You can site the benefits of a national all you like, but if you take 20 minutes to search on here you will see many...many topics on which they screw the sub. So yes nationals are a problem, when they design contracts that give them a lot of ways out of paying the guy who did all the work. Every once in a while, a decent one may surface, but it is up to them to build the reputation of not being like every other one. 

So you are in a position to act as a liaison between us and a national. However everything in life boils down to money. So no matter how great a company they may be, if you're willing to pay pennies to a sub, then you can't be shocked when they do a horrible job. Or better yet when they damage something, only to discover they don't have insurance or way under insured. 

Despite not being what you (your company) may want to hear, but it takes a fair rate to get good/consistent service.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I'm a little unique here. I'm a national and international emergency service provide. You name the company, I'm sure we are on their list of providers. Yes the all have their stipulations but overall the rates are fair and clean cut. We have no problem working for them, its one on one.

Its when the middle man such as a national maintenance provider gets in the middle that mucks it up. If you can't bankroll, get out of the game, if you can't pay, won't pay, or don't have the capital, be gone.

I understand the requirements of the companies, then NSP becomes the 2nd owner of the requirements and now you have to enforce them among 20/30/50 contractors. Things will get wrecked up and now u are stuck in the middle and the only recourse is not to pay. I get it, I do.


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Something doesnt add up here. So some management company ( who I/we have never heard of) owned/run by 3 guys ( which I assume have some experience in this industry ) gets a RFP from a national resturant chain and with only a couple days to turn around a bid for 400 and some places covering several states they turn it over to someone who is a "grunt" to figure out??? A "grunt" with no experience on the matter. Someone who "happened" upon this site but couldnt find a website to measure property sizes?? Come on man


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

I'm not trying to act as a Liason for anything. I agree with fair rates and as far as I know out company doesn't offer just cheap and ridiculously low rates bc we want to be fair to our network or subs since it should be a partnership. I'm ultimately just someone who is asking for help bc we don't perform the work and would have to use subs in order to do so. I agree 100% if you cannot afford to pay that you should get out of the game. I'm just someone who was on this site reading some of the posts and hoping for some help. If the fact that I am working for a national company is a problem then I apologize for wasting y'all's time. But since it seems like there are a lot of knowledgeable people on here, I was just hoping for some beneficial input. Not to get in a debate, or be told I'm the enemy or anything like that. And to clarify I said I was a girl bc others kept referring to me as a guy, not to garner any favors. As I've stated, just looking on advice on how to proceed and what the best way to proceed would be with the general information that I have and what I have to work with. If anyone is interested in helping then great, if not then have a great night and best of luck with future endeavors.


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

Bossman 92;1827034 said:


> Something doesnt add up here. So some management company ( who I/we have never heard of) owned/run by 3 guys ( which I assume have some experience in this industry ) gets a RFP from a national resturant chain and with only a couple days to turn around a bid for 400 and some places covering several states they turn it over to someone who is a "grunt" to figure out??? A "grunt" with no experience on the matter. Someone who "happened" upon this site but couldnt find a website to measure property sizes?? Come on man


You know I had the same thought, but stranger things have happened. Scoping out their site, they didn't have anything in regards to snow, so thinking they may have had it tossed to them to see what they come back with.

Either way, we need to know a few more specifics to truly help if that is the intention here. I offered to help via email, since I do a lot of fast food joints, but up to you to take the offer.

What's your mark up percentage range for the work? For instance if these lots go for say $150 (what an independent charges), are you charging them $175 to cover you or the same $150 then figure you'll find a sub for half? Asking since this plays a role in what kind of replies you may receive.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Good night all. 

Mjack, its nothing personal. I'm sure your a good person put between plow and the curb on this one.


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

Bossman 92;1827034 said:


> Something doesnt add up here. So some management company ( who I/we have never heard of) owned/run by 3 guys ( which I assume have some experience in this industry ) gets a RFP from a national resturant chain and with only a couple days to turn around a bid for 400 and some places covering several states they turn it over to someone who is a "grunt" to figure out??? A "grunt" with no experience on the matter. Someone who "happened" upon this site but couldnt find a website to measure property sizes?? Come on man


I am not sure what you mean? This bid came out three weeks ago, but got turned over to me bc that person didn't have the time to do it. I don't think the person who turned it over even looked at the scope. The 463 locations for this restaurant don't come with the size of the parking lots, I did not know to look it up bc I do not know anything about snow removal or even how to bid it. Most of the bids I receive are for facilities like plumbing, electrical, HVAC and handyman. Most of those bids require hourly pricing so with snow removal there are more variables which I did not know and do not have and did not know if there was any way to price it. RSM maintenance is a national company and it's about 20-24 million. As far as it being turned over to me, I know nothing about snow removal and i cannot help that it was thrown at me last minute. I don't know how else to answer it other than say why else would I post on here looking for help. Bc I know nothing about if. What doesn't add up or why is that so hard to believe?


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

MK97;1827045 said:


> You know I had the same thought, but stranger things have happened. Scoping out their site, they didn't have anything in regards to snow, so thinking they may have had it tossed to them to see what they come back with.
> 
> Either way, we need to know a few more specifics to truly help if that is the intention here. I offered to help via email, since I do a lot of fast food joints, but up to you to take the offer.
> 
> What's your mark up percentage range for the work? For instance if these lots go for say $150 (what an independent charges), are you charging them $175 to cover you or the same $150 then figure you'll find a sub for half? Asking since this plays a role in what kind of replies you may receive.


Bingo. We work with this restaurant chAin on other things so we got this random bid for snow removal. I don't even want to bid it personally bc I think it's a huge time waster for me, and if we don't specialize in it then why would we do it? But I don't make the decisions, I just try to follow the orders from my boss. Yes we add a markup. We don't try to find another sub once we have pricing, the Markup is typically between 15-18%.


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

I figured that's how you wound up with the bid since that is how I wound up taking over a chains accounts for landscape and snow, lol. 

Well as I said you can email me the name instead of posting up so I can give a more accurate price.


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

While Bossman might have a valid viewpoint, I find the problem with all national service providers is that they really don't know anything about it. To them it is a big business that can be run by management of the numbers. which any fool can run. Once mother nature takes hold and suddenly the season is a little longer or a salt boat sinks forcing salt prices up, well the numbers don't work anymore, and the one's on the bottom of the ladder are forced to make up the difference. So the fact that this young lady admits that she needs help doesn't surprise me. And how does a small service provider become a big one? When a opportunity presents itself, you seize it if you can. I guess they got the opportunity and they expect her to come up with a bid. So help her if you can.

Personally I would just multiply 2,000.00 per event per store plus extra for salt Send the bid in and hope you don't win. Then I would start to really start to price the jobs out over the next one or two years and identify vendors to perform work. A 15 to 18% Markup isn't enough.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

MJack;1827039 said:


> I'm ultimately just someone who is asking for help bc we don't perform the work and would have to use subs in order to do so. I'm just someone who was on this site reading some of the posts and hoping for some help.
> 
> As I've stated, just looking on advice on how to proceed and what the best way to proceed would be with the general information that I have and what I have to work with. If anyone is interested in helping then great, if not then have a great night and best of luck with future endeavors.


You sound like a nice person, and you did stumble across a wonderful resource here.

It sounds to me as though your boss set you up for failure. How on earth can he expect you to comprehensively submit pricing for 463 site locations in umpteen different regions? I appreciate the fact that you readily admit you are "clueless" about snow & ice management. I have to assume your boss already knows this about you. This also says your boss has provided you with no training in your endeavor. I'm not one to say something is not possible, but it's a safe bet you will not be able to pre-qualify your potential service providers while attempting to accomplish this. You have not been provided with enough time. The person whose desk this sat on for the past three weeks should be held accountable for the failure...not you.

Good luck to you ma'am.:waving:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Bossman 92;1826881 said:


> No. You think your boss would be pissed if you told him you cant quote this??? How pissed is he gonna be when you pull numbers out of the sky, land the contract, cant hire anyone to perform the job, but hire some rummy company to try and manage it only to be fired mid season?? Then you have above mentioned rummy company suing you for wages you cant pay??
> 
> Not being rude....just honest. Walk away





Bossman 92;1827034 said:


> Something doesnt add up here. So some management company ( who I/we have never heard of) owned/run by 3 guys ( which I assume have some experience in this industry ) gets a RFP from a national resturant chain and with only a couple days to turn around a bid for 400 and some places covering several states they turn it over to someone who is a "grunt" to figure out??? A "grunt" with no experience on the matter. Someone who "happened" upon this site but couldnt find a website to measure property sizes?? Come on man


Valid points for sure.



TCLA;1827095 said:


> You sound like a nice person, and you did stumble across a wonderful resource here.
> 
> It sounds to me as though your boss set you up for failure. How on earth can he expect you to comprehensively submit pricing for 463 site locations in umpteen different regions? I appreciate the fact that you readily admit you are "clueless" about snow & ice management. I have to assume your boss already knows this about you. This also says your boss has provided you with no training in your endeavor. I'm not one to say something is not possible, but it's a safe bet you will not be able to pre-qualify your potential service providers while attempting to accomplish this. You have not been provided with enough time. The person whose desk this sat on for the past three weeks should be held accountable for the failure...not you.
> 
> Good luck to you ma'am.:waving:


You should listen to this guy, he knows whereof he speaks.

Someone provided you with an unrealistic request--your boss, the other person, whoever. Explain to them that you are not able to meet those demands in the time provided that will maintain the reputation your company has built. If they don't get it, they aren't worth working for.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

its already a nightmare and it hasnt even started snowing yet. wait till its time to get paid.....


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## MJack (Sep 4, 2014)

Thank you for all the replies. I spoke with my boss today and told him that I did not feel that I would be able to accurately gather enough information with a the different variables in time and to provide accurate pricing. He understood and we are declining to bid. Thanks again.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FWIW, I have received those requests for individual sites in the past, from other nationals. I think the first time I hurried up and put all the numbers together. Never heard anything back. Then a few weeks or month later I received the same specs from another national. 

This is one of the reasons I don't even bother with them anymore. If someone calls on Thursday or Friday and wants the bid on Monday, I am not busting my butt to accommodate them. That's just being rude and unreasonable. (The above requests were for Targets and included plowing, mowing and sweeping.) 

The time and the fact that it is highly unlikely I will get them because I actually bid the specs\scope of work as opposed to how little I can get by with. That is another huge issue with nationals. Many contractors bid bare minimum when the specs\sow calls for the maximum.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

They use guys to do their homework then will offer an amount based on all the info they get. Then will pay 20% of what it should be.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

grandview;1827200 said:


> They use guys to do their homework then will offer an amount based on all the info they get. Then will pay 20% of what it should be.


Exactly, and the only reason I did it once.


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## Jason1919 (Aug 26, 2013)

Time for you to find a new profession


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;1827193 said:


> FWIW, I have received those requests for individual sites in the past, from other nationals. I think the first time I hurried up and put all the numbers together. Never heard anything back. Then a few weeks or month later I received the same specs from another national.
> 
> This is one of the reasons I don't even bother with them anymore. If someone calls on Thursday or Friday and wants the bid on Monday, I am not busting my butt to accommodate them. That's just being rude and unreasonable. (The above requests were for Targets and included plowing, mowing and sweeping.)
> 
> The time and the fact that it is highly unlikely I will get them because I actually bid the specs\scope of work as opposed to how little I can get by with. That is another huge issue with nationals. Many contractors bid bare minimum when the specs\sow calls for the maximum.


Oh you can offer me $20,000 for a 350,000 sq ft parking lot with 28,000 sq ft of walks? Why didn't you just tell me that I wouldn't have wasted my time even running the numbers...schmucks. Someone is going to take it I'm sure....insane.


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