# So I have this question...



## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

So, I've spent a lot of time in Europe. And one thing I've noticed is the use of the Unimog (one of the two trucks I've always wanted to own [the other being the Tatra T815]) truck/utility tractor concept in places like the Alps and I've marveled at their versatility and capabilities. I've seen them with plows, mowers, front end buckets, backhoes, snow blowers (and cutters), and more. And I've always wondered why like when you see people remove snow in the US they don't demand the US truck makers to give them trucks with more specialized features like the Mogs have? Is there some reason why this type of vehicle isn't used in the US much? Are they not as good as they appear to be?

For example 2 years ago I was visiting my home town when 6 feet of snow fell on it during one storm. I was snowed in at the folks place for two or three days until the plow guy my folks hired could get a tractor over with a bucket and snow blower attachment on it to clear the drive way. So I was thinking how when I'm in the Alps (Swiss or German usually) this small little trucks just power through this snow like nothing with snow blowers on them. And really the more I thought about the more curious I was as to why a tractor doing 20-30 mph would be more practical than a truck doing 45-50mph between areas with a snow blower on it?

I realize that trucks are extreme expensive even used... However, it would seem to me that if say Dodge or Chevy ( say 3500-4500 series trucks) came up with a package of accessories specific for heavy duty work; I think they could make a killing a truck like. Imagine a Chevy 3500 truck with items like front and rear air locking differentials, strong frames, portal axles, deep reduction ranges on the transfer case ( like say the Atlas Box does) , maybe a front pto, centralized hydraulics, and so on and so forth. I think this type of vehicle would be a really good option for contractors who really work with their trucks.

It might not have ridiculous features like the standard mog does of fording 30 inches of water or having 15 inches of ground clearance-but, the truck could be designed to operate a front mounted PTO Snow Blower (cutter) or other optional tools.

So I'm curious as to why the professionals here don't demand a product like this? In my line of work I don't find many people who can answer these questions I have.

Just look at this video:






or 





Now that I've aborted my retro-fitting of a snow plow to the Tatra-815PMS I own ( cannot wait until the paper work clears and it is shipped from the Czech Republic to here) I think I will purchase a Unimog to play in the winter snow with...

But really I'm curious as to your answers to that above question.


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## vegaman04 (Dec 12, 2007)

Sub'ed for responses.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

vegaman04;1336317 said:


> Sub'ed for responses.


I don't get your response?


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## Glenn Lawn Care (Sep 28, 2009)

TatraFan;1336354 said:


> I don't get your response?


He subscribed to your thread.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

Got it... Because Sub'ed for responses really made absolutely no sense to me.


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

This is the closest I can come 37,000 GVW, central hydraulics with 4working ports at front and 6 working ports at rear, air ports on rear, 12 ton hooklift, 4x4, auto, no front PTO, not sure about clearance but more than most. This is turning out to be one of the best things I have ever bought, I wish I had 50 roll off boxes though.[/HTML]


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## maverjohn (Jul 23, 2008)

I like this idea, lets see where it gos


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

SNOWLORD;1336407 said:


> This is the closest I can come 37,000 GVW, central hydraulics with 4working ports at front and 6 working ports at rear, air ports on rear, 12 ton hooklift, 4x4, auto, no front PTO, not sure about clearance but more than most. This is turning out to be one of the best things I have ever bought, I wish I had 50 roll off boxes though.[/HTML]


Well, sure an International like that is very nice. Automatic transmission....( Oh that is just blasphemy if you ask me. You needed to get a manual gearbox in that truck with at at least 13gears... Because gears are your friend.... I'm just teasing you.) Does that truck have a lock up torque converter on the Allison Tranny? Does it have a two speed or single speed transfer case with air-locker? I would like two speeds myself with an air locker. I would also want a locking read different at minimum (does it have one?). There is no doubt that your truck is very nice. And the centralized hydraulics are great for easy tool attachment like plows, sanders, dump boxes and so on. I think it really is the way to go myself.

Still what i was envisioning is something that could actually be used on a private driveway. So say an overall length of less than 200 inches. Your truck is really for big truck for big jobs. Where as the Unimog to me is a small truck that does jobs of a disproportionate size relative to its own size.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

I love the Unimogs myself. I almost pulled the trigger on a US army surplus one that had a front end loader and a backhoe on the back. Check the army surplus auctions and you'll find one.

Only real problem with them is that they generally are manuals, and unless your doing nothing but long roads, they'll kill your left leg from all the clutching.

Next best thing in my eyes is a Bi-Directional tractor. New Holland makes one and you could stick a pusher box on one end, swivel the seat and use a snow blower on the other. I'm actually keeping my eyes out for a 90's ford 9030 bi-directional tractor.

....


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

I've never found a manual transmission to be tiring actually myself. From the few test drives I've done in Unimog's found them to be rather user friendly given the forest of gear levers in the center console. I think the fact that you reverse the direction in 1-4 main box ranges is great. That really makes it user friendly I feel. 

The bi-directional tractor sounds pretty neat actually. I've never seen that set up before.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

TatraFan;1336611 said:


> I've never found a manual transmission to be tiring actually myself. From the few test drives I've done in Unimog's found them to be rather user friendly given the forest of gear levers in the center console. I think the fact that you reverse the direction in 1-4 main box ranges is great. That really makes it user friendly I feel.
> 
> The bi-directional tractor sounds pretty neat actually. I've never seen that set up before.


You haven't found one tiring because you've never plowed snow with a manual for 30 hours strait. You could possibly use the clutch more than a 100 times in a couple of hours depending on the lot or area you are clearing.

Here's a link to the description of a Bi-directional tractor.

http://versatile-tractors.com/Bidi.htm

....


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

White Gardens;1336692 said:


> You haven't found one tiring because you've never plowed snow with a manual for 30 hours strait. You could possibly use the clutch more than a 100 times in a couple of hours depending on the lot or area you are clearing.
> 
> Here's a link to the description of a Bi-directional tractor.
> 
> ...


When I was in college I worked for a company delivering stuff part time in NYC... I used to drive a Gruman style truck-- depending on where the delivery was going you could do hundreds of shifts in stop and go traffic... So have a really good idea what is like to shift a lot.


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

Tatra fan FYI my truck is not an International, it measures 216" bumper to bumper, I personally would never want a clutch in a plow truck. This truck works excellent for what I do. I hope yours works well for what you want it to do.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

TatraFan;1336693 said:


> When I was in college I worked for a company delivering stuff part time in NYC... I used to drive a Gruman style truck-- depending on where the delivery was going you could do hundreds of shifts in stop and go traffic... So have a really good idea what is like to shift a lot.


Plowing is just such a different animal compared to stop and go traffic. There is absolutely nobody I've talked to that has ever plowed with a manual that didn't get rid of it after the season was finished, or said they actually liked it.

....


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

SNOWLORD;1336695 said:


> Tatra fan FYI my truck is not an International, it measures 216" bumper to bumper, I personally would never want a clutch in a plow truck. This truck works excellent for what I do. I hope yours works well for what you want it to do.


Okay, so it is a Freightliner... It is a nice truck and it is small.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

White Gardens;1336856 said:


> Plowing is just such a different animal compared to stop and go traffic. There is absolutely nobody I've talked to that has ever plowed with a manual that didn't get rid of it after the season was finished, or said they actually liked it.
> 
> ....


There is basically two types of terrain I've driven large trucks on: regular paved roads and completely off road... And my best guess was that it had to be more like stop and go driving given all the adjustments one would have to make in course and direction. I mean off road driving in a truck like the Ural 375D or Tatra T813 isn't really hard. So my frame of reference are those two extremes. So you are saying it is more like driving off-road?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

IMO it wouldn't be cost effective for either party. The big 3 make a truck just "heavy duty" enough to get the job done but not over kill so the weekend warrior can still afford it. In 99.9% of the time regular heavy duty trucks do the best for what we need to do.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

TatraFan;1337873 said:


> There is basically two types of terrain I've driven large trucks on: regular paved roads and completely off road... And my best guess was that it had to be more like stop and go driving given all the adjustments one would have to make in course and direction. I mean off road driving in a truck like the Ural 375D or Tatra T813 isn't really hard. So my frame of reference are those two extremes. So you are saying it is more like driving off-road?


No, completely different than anything else.

Think of it this way.... You're in a plow truck from anywhere to 24-48 hours strait so the fatigue factor is the biggest thing. Sitting in the same position is the second. Constantly twisting (if you look backwards when going in reverse) doesn't help, the constant adrenalin, and the amount of times you go forward and reverse thus using the clutch that much more.

Hypothetically, If you go into say a 1 acre lot, you might clutch more than 50 times in 45 minutes in that lot depending on how much snow and where you are moving it to. Take that times 20, 1 acre lots in a snow route and that's your problem.

I've personally never have plowed with a manual, but like I said, even I know that it would be brutal. The last person I talked to that had was a guy who in a pinch needed a truck. He said after doing his snow route his left knee swelled to twice the size and he literally couldn't walk on it for three days after the storm.

Also for slow speed plowing, you might not be able to effectively shift out of first gear when you have a full load on your blade. With an auto, it will shift effectively for you.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

Brian Young;1337901 said:


> IMO it wouldn't be cost effective for either party. The big 3 make a truck just "heavy duty" enough to get the job done but not over kill so the weekend warrior can still afford it. In 99.9% of the time regular heavy duty trucks do the best for what we need to do.


What do you consider heavy duty?


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## vegaman04 (Dec 12, 2007)

TatraFan;1337971 said:


> What do you consider heavy duty?


Heavy Duty of the light duties lol

GM - Ford - Dodge


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

White Gardens;1337907 said:


> No, completely different than anything else.
> 
> Think of it this way.... You're in a plow truck from anywhere to 24-48 hours strait so the fatigue factor is the biggest thing. Sitting in the same position is the second. Constantly twisting (if you look backwards when going in reverse) doesn't help, the constant adrenalin, and the amount of times you go forward and reverse thus using the clutch that much more.
> 
> ...


I'm going to deal with your remarks in order.

I've never been a truck for more than 12-15hrs off-road... And that was pretty grueling actually-- all the bouncing and jostling on logging roads. They were just trails some times in the mud and snow. But that is where I really learned to love the Czech made Tatra Trucks. The trucks were just unstoppable. However, I only drove them occasionally my regular truck was a Ural Diesel 6x6 truck. It was good but, it was no Tatra. So I think understand the fatigue issues. But I've never been in a Truck for 48hrs-- that sounds intense now matter the gearbox type.

I think the big problem with manual gearboxes in this application is that you have to have the right gears for it to work correctly. Most of the pickup trucks are designed for road going speeds so they aren't going to really have the type of crawler or low gears you might want to just crawl long pushing or pulling an object. It is the reason why people tend to ride the clutch too much and often change gears more often than they should.

As for shifting a lot... Try driving on the East Side of NYC during the morning rush hour traffic with road work and lights. You'll shift 100 times in ten blocks between 1-3 and neutral... I know I used to count when I got bored in the delivery truck.

However, I'll concede this fact about Automatics. They are more user friendly and when you're giving your equipment out to people the automatics are probably going to be easy for them to us.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

vegaman04;1337977 said:


> Heavy Duty of the light duties lol
> 
> GM - Ford - Dodge


GM, Ford and Dodge use to all make some heavy duty trucks.

But really right now I think Heavy Duty, Super Duty, or Whatever Duty they come up with now is sort of a marketing scheme more than real specification.

I think the Unimog has the best features anyone could want for a snowplow truck: small size, maneuverability, GVW of 13222 lbs+/-, multiple tools, high ground clearance 420mm, road speed at least 50mph, traction control in the form of air-locking differentials, transmission with low and crawler ranges and multiple power take-offs and implement connections. This is a working machine. Which is probably why people don't like it in the United States as much. In Europe Working Machines as they are referred to as really are popular. They are like tractors and trucks all the same time. I think they fit an important niche in world-- but I don't think the US they have the same following.

So I would put the Unimog in the Super Duty category actually myself. I've seen them pull work as rail yard tugs and other things and these little machines can really get the job done. I don't think a Ford F-450 or even 650 could pull around 60-70metric ton rail car. But i've seen Unimogs do it.


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## wng-2 (Mar 5, 2011)

There's a guy in Northern NH that has/had a MOG. I don't think the site has been updated in a while.
http://www.allroutes.to/mog/


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

wng-2;1338351 said:


> There's a guy in Northern NH that has/had a MOG. I don't think the site has been updated in a while.
> http://www.allroutes.to/mog/


Yeah, that guy has a nice classic 404 model Unimog.

I just think they are super versatile....


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## 87chevy (Mar 11, 2009)

TatraFan;1338304 said:


> GM, Ford and Dodge use to all make some heavy duty trucks.
> 
> But really right now I think Heavy Duty, Super Duty, or Whatever Duty they come up with now is sort of a marketing scheme more than real specification.
> 
> ...


A Unimog is not going to pull a loaded railroad car. empty maybe but I have a arguement to that too...:


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

87chevy;1338811 said:


> A Unimog is not going to pull a loaded railroad car. empty maybe but I have a arguement to that too...:












That's one unimog and a lot of cars... I've seen them move fully loaded cars and stuff. In the second video I was able to count 10 to 15 cars. So let's say each car weights in at 15metric tons so you have 150 to 225 meteric tons... That is an amazing amount of weight. And that single little unimog is just pushing and pulling that train of cars like they are matchboxes.


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## 87chevy (Mar 11, 2009)

I'll agree that they're sweet little rigs. But saying they can pull a tain car just isn't that impressive... If I could get traction I'm sure my Escort could get one rolling. And if my clutch held up to all the slipping


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

87chevy;1339105 said:


> I'll agree that they're sweet little rigs. But saying they can pull a tain car just isn't that impressive... If I could get traction I'm sure my Escort could get one rolling. And if my clutch held up to all the slipping


I don't about it not being impressive. If you're pulling 100 metric tons that is pretty impressive no matter what. I'm pretty happy that my new baby (the Tatra T-815) will pull 65 metric tons on a trailer on road and 20 metric tons on a trailer off-road. Not that I'm every going to use it like that... Unless I finally buy the T-55AM2 tank I've always wanted; but, I regress here. The point is that Unimog has some impressive features.

Now, clearly not all of them are useful for most people's applications: fording 30 inches of water, climbing 100% grades and so and so forth are not usually found in Suburban winter storms. However, they might come in handy if you do a lot of work in the woods during the spring , summer and fall months before the snow.

I personally could see a niche market for an American truck some of the same capabilities. For example I don't think it is cost effective when say you have a 50 inch snow storm to use a front end loader. First off you if you drive it from location to location you're stuck with 20-30mph top road speeds. If you trailer it from location to location now you have two vehicles at each location one for just carrying the other around. That seems to be ineffective to me. It seems to me it would save time and money if you had one vehicle that could do road speeds of 45-56mph with a snow blower on the front and just go from location to location without the need of a transport vehicle.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Now, I'll agree with Tatra.

Those UniMogs are awesome and can do way more than any ford up to a F-650 can do. Tatra is right, they are built more like a tractor rather than a truck, so comparing them to a truck isn't comparing apples to apples. The gear boxes on them make them stout along with the diffs.

I can't believe the GVWR isn't that much on them though for as tough as they seem built.

As for a niche, I agree with that also. They are extremely versatile machines, and if you can get the most bang for your buck out of one power unit, that's the way to go. State and local DOTs and railroad companies could take some notes from them and minimize the amount of equipment they need to effectively take care of roads and tracks. I'm a big fan of versatility with all the equipment I buy.

As for considering it a truck for plowing, I don't see the cost effectiveness of it unless you only do a couple or random places with it or live on a ranch/farm where it would be versatile.

Actual tractors do better work for heavy commercial plowing as they can stack snow and load trucks way better than a unimog ever could.

...


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

87chevy;1339105 said:


> I'll agree that they're sweet little rigs. But saying they can pull a tain car just isn't that impressive... If I could get traction I'm sure my Escort could get one rolling. And if my clutch held up to all the slipping


I just read the UK website for the Unimog... 
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/con...e/unimog_overview/applications/road_rail.html

1,000 metric tons... That is incredible if you ask me. I thought maybe 200 tons or 300 tons (metric of course) but not 1,000 metric tons. I'd like to see your Ford Escort move that.


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## 87chevy (Mar 11, 2009)

Give me the right gear reduction and enough traction and it will. Train cars are on wheels, somoving them isnt a tremendous feat, sure, they weigh alot. But the wheels offset that.And theres no way it'll crawl a 100% grade. That's straight up.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

87chevy;1339475 said:


> Give me the right gear reduction and enough traction and it will. Train cars are on wheels, somoving them isnt a tremendous feat, sure, they weigh alot. But the wheels offset that.And theres no way it'll crawl a 100% grade. That's straight up.


Actually, it is feat to move 1,000 metric tons even those that are on wheels. There's a lot of rolling friction with all those carriages. Look if you want to modify a Ford Escort into a train pulling engine you could do it. You could also do it with a Chevy 2500HD if you really wanted to really modify it. The point wasn't if one could modify an existing truck into a monster-- it was that the Unimog comes from the production line as a monster.

A 100% grade is a 45 degree slope. 90 is way over a 100% slope. The Tatra T-815 I just bought will go a 100% grade at GVW of 27,100kgs. The video will show it doing it unloaded:




I've personally seen the older model trucks the Tatra T-813 series trucks do a 100% grade loaded with 10-12metric tons of material on them. The Tatra's are just off-road monsters and the Unimogs are great too.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

I think I want one like this...
http://www.unimogsales.com/unimogforsale-U1250-1991.html
Just not so sure I want to pay like 36k for it... I only paid 26,000USD for the Tatra T-815.


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## Bigsnowny (Sep 28, 2009)

What part of new York are you from? Like you I think that the US falls behind Europe and Canada when it comes to snow removal. Both Europe and Canada make better equipment than the US. Their are guys on here that are switching from pick-ups with plows to tractors with blowers on the back and blades on the front to do driveways. Look at all the guys who follow Montreal Paul's post. Why do they? Because Paul Is the Man when comes to driveway plowing (Blowing). A New tractor with a inverted snowblower on it will cost $50K and will out work and last longer that a new pick-up that cost the same. They just don't build trucks like they used too. Thats why I'm starting to which over to tractors this year. Tatra, What are you planning to do with T-185?


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

Bigsnowny;1339512 said:


> What part of new York are you from? Like you I think that the US falls behind Europe and Canada when it comes to snow removal. Both Europe and Canada make better equipment than the US. Their are guys on here that are switching from pick-ups with plows to tractors with blowers on the back and blades on the front to do driveways. Look at all the guys who follow Montreal Paul's post. Why do they? Because Paul Is the Man when comes to driveway plowing (Blowing). A New tractor with a inverted snowblower on it will cost $50K and will out work and last longer that a new pick-up that cost the same. They just don't build trucks like they used too. Thats why I'm starting to which over to tractors this year. Tatra, What are you planning to do with T-185?


Well Bigsnowny-- I from a little town called Maplecrest. However, I live in NYC most of the time. That is when I'm not traveling for work. And I recently bought a second home in Jewett. Jewett is a town over from Maplecrest.

The Tatra T-815 is just a toy for me. I love driving off road and I finally a bought the truck I've always wanted. And the Unimog for is a fun truck to play with in the snow... And you know just tool around. So the big 8x8 for big fun off road and the little 4x4 for when you need to be slightly more practical.

My question is this... You know you have a tractor and it does 20-30mph right maybe if you're lucky 35mph. Now lets say your have a route that covers 20 miles in distance from your point of origin to the last location on the route. If you do 20mph that is one hour of time just to reach the end of it. That is of course not taking into account the amount of time it will take to do your work at each job site. At 30 mph it is like 40 minutes and at 35 mph it is a little less than 40 minutes. The point is that if it takes say up to 10 minutes to drive between each job site that is time you're wasting in transit. So if you had a couple of Unimog like trucks fitted with front pto snow blowers-- you could do 50-56mph between the job sites save time and make up for the slower blowing process. And if you needed them to plow drive ways they could do that too. That too me is the real advantage in this setup when compared to regular pick up. So sure you have the snow plow when you want that and the blower or snow cutter when you need that option as well. Plus you can still run a sander or salter. This is like having the best of both worlds if you ask me.

See I'm just curious and I love to play with trucks... They are kind of like Tonka Toys for Big Boys.


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

White Gardens;1336856 said:


> Plowing is just such a different animal compared to stop and go traffic. There is absolutely nobody I've talked to that has ever plowed with a manual that didn't get rid of it after the season was finished, or said they actually liked it.
> 
> ....


In our fleet of Internationals (mostly 2500's), two are automatics. They are for one driver who can't shift gears to save his soul and another who has a bum right arm. All the rest are manuals - mostly 10-speeds. When you're plowing roads (which is what the bigger trucks are generally used for), shifting isn't really a big issue. You usually only use 2 or 3 gears while working, The truck I drive, a 1987 S2500 with a 12-foot reversible plow and an 11-foot side wing, is a 10-speed split and is a pita to shift in the lower gears until you've worked for a half hour or so and warmed up the transmission. After that, it's (almost) a piece of cake and I feel that I have more control upshifting and downshifting than when I drive one of the automatics. They seem to always be "foot to the floor on the gas - hit the brake!". IMO


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

Landcare - Mont;1339666 said:


> In our fleet of Internationals (mostly 2500's), two are automatics. They are for one driver who can't shift gears to save his soul and another who has a bum right arm. All the rest are manuals - mostly 10-speeds. When you're plowing roads (which is what the bigger trucks are generally used for), shifting isn't really a big issue. You usually only use 2 or 3 gears while working, The truck I drive, a 1987 S2500 with a 12-foot reversible plow and an 11-foot side wing, is a 10-speed split and is a pita to shift in the lower gears until you've worked for a half hour or so and warmed up the transmission. After that, it's (almost) a piece of cake and I feel that I have more control upshifting and downshifting than when I drive one of the automatics. They seem to always be "foot to the floor on the gas - hit the brake!". IMO


Some boxes can be annoying like that when it comes to downshifting into the low ranges... Myself personally, I've found that driving off-road or on-road the best type of transmission is a manual gearbox. I just wouldn't anything else in my truck-- so I totally agree with you over the control you have with the truck.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

TatraFan - you should start your own truck manufacturing company since you're so confident they will sell. I'm sure their is a huge demographic of people looking for slow, overweight, underpowered, three pedal trucks. The large snow removal nationals would likely advance order your trucks by the thousands.

Oh yeah, don't forget a big winch.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Landcare - Mont;1339666 said:


> In our fleet of Internationals (mostly 2500's), two are automatics. They are for one driver who can't shift gears to save his soul and another who has a bum right arm. All the rest are manuals - mostly 10-speeds. When you're plowing roads (which is what the bigger trucks are generally used for), shifting isn't really a big issue. You usually only use 2 or 3 gears while working, The truck I drive, a 1987 S2500 with a 12-foot reversible plow and an 11-foot side wing, is a 10-speed split and is a pita to shift in the lower gears until you've worked for a half hour or so and warmed up the transmission. After that, it's (almost) a piece of cake and I feel that I have more control upshifting and downshifting than when I drive one of the automatics. They seem to always be "foot to the floor on the gas - hit the brake!". IMO


I agree, my posts were mostly geared towards the non-road plowing plowing.



2COR517;1339853 said:


> TatraFan - you should start your own truck manufacturing company since you're so confident they will sell. I'm sure their is a huge demographic of people looking for slow, overweight, underpowered, three pedal trucks. The large snow removal nationals would likely advance order your trucks by the thousands.
> 
> Oh yeah, don't forget a big winch.


Doesn't Fleetliner have the parts and sell Unimogs?

...


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

2COR517;1339853 said:


> TatraFan - you should start your own truck manufacturing company since you're so confident they will sell. I'm sure their is a huge demographic of people looking for slow, overweight, underpowered, three pedal trucks. The large snow removal nationals would likely advance order your trucks by the thousands.
> 
> Oh yeah, don't forget a big winch.


Better a big winch on your truck than a big wench-- I always say...

As for the rest of your points-- I think you're missing intent. My intent was to find out why professional plowers haven't demanded more specific packages of accessories in trucks the size of a Ford F-150-450. I don't think plow people need all the features of the Unimogs-- but you have to admit some of the features would be useful: centralized hydraulics, lower gear ratios in the transfer case, and maybe a front power take off.

It seems to me that ultimately at some point snow blowers even in a residential scenario do make sense. For example a few years ago I was visit my folks in the winter and they got 5-6feet in a three day storm. If you're dealing with small drives then blowing the snow becomes the only option in this scenario. Also you know perhaps costumers might just like the neater and cleaner look of blown snow instead of pushed snow? The point is that if you're driving around at 20mph in a tractor you cannot be even remotely as efficient in your time management as you could be in a truck doing 50-55mph.

As for the transmission... I don't care if people use automatics. I think they are crappy. That is my personal opinion developed over the years of driving large class 8 trucks on and off road. And I have to say that off road nothing in my opinion beats a manual gearbox. Some don't agree- and that is fine. I don't care about it much myself. I just find it amusing that people say things like; oh manuals will kill you.... I've driven some seriously rough off road stuff and I still love them. That's me however, and every one has to pick out their own vehicle of choice.

As for the Unimog being over weight, slow, underpowered and so on... Well I would just suggest you read the specs of it at this site: 
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/con...view/models/u_300_-_u_500/technical_data.html

It might change your mind or not... Not really that important to me.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

White Gardens;1340463 said:


> I agree, my posts were mostly geared towards the non-road plowing plowing.
> 
> Doesn't Fleetliner have the parts and sell Unimogs?
> 
> ...


I thought Freightliner was sold by the Daimler Group?


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

TatraFan;1340582 said:


> I thought Freightliner was sold by the Daimler Group?


Not sure, but it seems like I heard somewhere you could get Unimog parts from them as Mercedes was tied into them somehow.

You would have to check it out to confirm. It's all second hand info on my part.

...


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## wislxer (Jan 20, 2011)

Europe has two basic kinds of trucks in my eyes. Hilux and the Nissan/Mitsu/Ford comparable type trucks and flat-out purpose built work trucks. IMHO in the U.S. most consumers want trucks that do a lot of things well (picking up groceries, room and comfort for the whole family, extended 70mph freeway jaunts towing heavy loads) on top of being work trucks. The problem is that they don't do any ONE thing exceptionally well which is more what the European purpose-built work trucks do - work. With the exception of the aforementioned hilux and it's competitors almost all Euro trucks seem more purpose-built municipal grade work trucks and like it was mentioned before they may have even more similarities to tractors.

Tatra, check this one out. This one would give you your manual without any of the left-leg soreness.

http://www.machineryzone.com/used/used-truck/1863527/man-9-136-fae.html

Here's the classified info translated:

"data
Displacement: 5648, 100 kW (136 hp), diesel, Transmission: manual, Seats: 3, Year: 6 / 1991, Color: Orange, width: 2,350 mm Height: 2,700 mm

equipment
Trailer hitch, municipal vehicles, power steering, partition

Vehicle description:
Dif. locks, switchable hydrostatic drive, front and rear PTO, local hydraulic front and rear, snow plow attachment plate, additional headlights, heated. Mirrors, rear window, radio / cassette, towbar with compressed air (8.010kg), 3-side tipper Meiller with guard, winter package: salt spreaders and hydraulic-swivel 1.7 m³ snow plow."

All the goodies plus hydro drive!!!! What a truck! And the extra visibility from the cab-over? Perfect! And with a 3-way dump bed, sander, less than 100k miles and all for around 25k usd it ain't a bad deal either. Made in Germany, owned by VW? Sign me up! If only in the U.S.


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## South Seneca (Oct 22, 2010)

I can't imagine how much fun it would be to dig stuff out of that blower that got buried in the snow. Other than that, it seems like a good thing to have in lake effect ares around the Great Lakes.

Any idea how much horsepower that machine is making?


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

:realmad:


wislxer;1340705 said:


> Europe has two basic kinds of trucks in my eyes. Hilux and the Nissan/Mitsu/Ford comparable type trucks and flat-out purpose built work trucks. IMHO in the U.S. most consumers want trucks that do a lot of things well (picking up groceries, room and comfort for the whole family, extended 70mph freeway jaunts towing heavy loads) on top of being work trucks. The problem is that they don't do any ONE thing exceptionally well which is more what the European purpose-built work trucks do - work. With the exception of the aforementioned hilux and it's competitors almost all Euro trucks seem more purpose-built municipal grade work trucks and like it was mentioned before they may have even more similarities to tractors.
> 
> Tatra, check this one out. This one would give you your manual without any of the left-leg soreness.
> 
> ...


I agree that the Americans have different philosophies on what a work truck is. I agree that the average person who is looking for a truck basically wants a form or transportation that excels in driving to A and back again for the most part. Some times they will want to pull a load with it- some times they will load it up. And the average Pick-up Truck is fine for those sorts of operations.

One think you have to remember that in Europe Commercial trucks are limited to about 90Kph top speed by law. Most don't do over 85kph due to the electronic limiters on them.

However, I was really intent on understanding why people who own companies that will spend money on loaders and tractors why they won't purchase the Unimog type vehicle instead. I could see a tractor making sense if you planned on leaving it at one location then its relatively slow travel speed is negated by its proximity to the work site. However, I've been reading about people wanting to drive tractors around their snow plow routes. I cannot figure out how going 20-30mph is more of advantage than going 50-55mph in the Unimog with a blower or plow and still having a sander/deicing system on the truck as well? It seems to me that if you had a tractor going from work-site to work-site you would then need to have another truck go out and sand all those places as well if they need it. With the Unimog you get the snow blower or plow and sander all in one compact unit that is able to do road speeds-- what is not to love?

Also I think that it becomes more critical to have a greater road speed between work sites if you are going to use a blower. After all blowing snow is slower than plowing is. And that is a trade off too. You save on wear and tear on the truck-- get a nice, neat and clean finished product at the expense of speed. I like the blower option myself. It is nice to have one in case you get like 40 inches or more in a single storm. I mean I've been in multiple 40 plus snow storms in my life time back in my home town, And always a front end loader had to come to clean us out after those storms.

Then you have the issue of versatility. I'm not sold on the versatility of a 90hp tractor in many applications other than big field work. Where as the Unimog can double as a small dump truck, tow truck for machinery i.e small bulldozers and tractors, function as a tree removal tractor if need be, you can even put a crane on it and have an off-road crane if you need it. I mean the options are pretty endless actually. And then in the winter go back to a plow or blower with a sander. So besides the absurd prices of the Unimog I don't see many drawbacks of this truck to the professional snow removal and landscaping person. You get the features of a truck and medium sized farm tractor in a smaller and faster package-- that seems like the proverbial "win-win scenario".

As for the MAN... You know MAN is a classic truck-- but I've never been that impressed with them. I spent 8 months driving a Ural ( even sometimes when I was really lucky driving a Tatra T-813) trucks in the Czech Republic back in the late 90's for a logging company... And the Tatra just won my heart. It was so robust and well built that I couldn't believe such a truck existed. It could go up 100% grades ( not with a trailer but alone) and it could go through mud that was just insanely deep. But if you like the MAN truck you should do what I've done buy the truck and have it shipped over.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

South Seneca;1340742 said:


> I can't imagine how much fun it would be to dig stuff out of that blower that got buried in the snow. Other than that, it seems like a good thing to have in lake effect ares around the Great Lakes.
> 
> Any idea how much horsepower that machine is making?


What machine? The modern U500 Unimog has a continuous150kw output at the front PTO... Older trucks are less than this. Some of the trucks have separate engines for the blowers: they range from 110hp to 320hp depending on the model of the blower and setup. The FS 90 and 105 models for the Unimog 400, 500 and 1600 series trucks can move between 1200-1600 tons per hour ( that is metric too so that is more than the standard US Short Ton). That is a lot of snow for a truck that only has 286hp only.


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## 87chevy (Mar 11, 2009)

Because Unimogs are expensive here... Plain and simple. And you can't put a loader on a Unimog.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

87chevy;1341005 said:


> Because Unimogs are expensive here... Plain and simple. And you can't put a loader on a Unimog.


Actually, you can put a loader on the Unimog-- I'm not sure about the new ones but the U406 and 411 series trucks can carry a loader on them. I don't know if anyone makes them for the new models but I'm sure you could put one them if knew where to look for one. 




See a bucket and backhoe actually can be fitted to them.

I agree that over all cost of the truck is a bit absurd. And the implements are not cheap either. So it would be interesting to see how a real cost analysis would come out comparing a fleet of mixed trucks and tractors to that of Unimogs... I think the cost analysis would favor the Unimog myself, but I could be wrong.


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## 87chevy (Mar 11, 2009)

Maybe if you were only buying one. But you can't replace a fleet with one vehicle. That would be crazy.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

87chevy;1341023 said:


> Maybe if you were only buying one. But you can't replace a fleet with one vehicle. That would be crazy.


True... I think it would all depend on how you plan your operations. I don't think one truck is going to do the work of 10-- but I bet I bet One Unimog will give you the equivalent of a truck and tractor combination. The question would then become proper usage of the vehicles. For example are you leaving vehicles on site or are you traveling around doing multiple locations.

There might not be any savings between the two strategies if you can put 5 tractors at your five biggest areas where you use blowers and pushers. But if you're driving between each location-- I bet the Unimog will save you an immense amount of money and time.

Still even if you didn't want to buy the Unimog-- My original point was simply why don't we see some of these specific features on trucks that Americans do buy? for example why not an International model with a front PTO , Centralized Hydraulics, and so on with all the features that Ameircans want-- The truck could be a medium dump, snowplow , snow blower and so on all in one truck.

I think people got stuck on my example of the Unimog... But the intent of the question was simply why aren't we seeing more specialized features for users that really need them?


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## weasel11 (Dec 4, 2008)

*FUSO FG is the new Unimog*

Look at the youtube vids of these in Europe. I've seen the ads where off road enthusiast say they are better than the Unimog. Do your own search. I've seen the Fuso push snow and it is unreal it went where the Reserves H1 couldn't go. Also, for 2011 it's now Automatic with 175K warranty.


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## TatraFan (Oct 29, 2011)

weasel11;1341114 said:


> Look at the youtube vids of these in Europe. I've seen the ads where off road enthusiast say they are better than the Unimog. Do your own search. I've seen the Fuso push snow and it is unreal it went where the Reserves H1 couldn't go. Also, for 2011 it's now Automatic with 175K warranty.


That makes a good option... The FUSO FG with 4x4... I never read about them being used off-road like a Unimog... That doesn't mean much that I'm unaware of it capabilities it just means I've not researched enough.

However, for off-road tooling around-- I purchased a Tatra T-815 this is a T-813 (older model) the newer one has 8x8 but with a two person cab instead of the T-813 Kolos' crew cab show here and a 19.0004L displacement twin turbo V12 Air-Cooled diesel instead of the 813's 17.6L normally aspirated V12 Air-Cooled Diesel. This is the meaning of fun off road if you ask me.


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## rusty loads (Jan 26, 2013)

Hello TatraFan,
I work with 2 Unimogs and a Holder sidewalk unit. I wanted to PM you re Tatra but cannot. If you can PM me from your end I will send you my email. Thanks!


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