# Wings out of aluminum



## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

I knows the topic of wings has been killed but what about aluminum. Someone with good metal knowledge. I know the material specs will need to be multiplied by 1.25 or more. Or does aluminum just not have the tensile stregth. I'm thinking a huge weight advantage for a blizzard 800 HD pump, any thoughts?


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

Snow LOVES to stick to aluminum


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Perfect. Needs to be coated. Any other cons?


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I have not seen wings, how much weight you think you will save?

Aluminum has a fatigue life.


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## bighornjd (Oct 23, 2009)

Wouldn't be strong enough I don't think and it wouldn't be practical to make it big enough to have proper strength. Probably why you don't see a bunch of aluminum plows around. Why would you want aluminum other than weight savings? If your plow pump can't handle the weight of a set of wings, then it must be a POS to begin with. If corrosion is a concern, then maybe stainless? 

I don't know, but I could see aluminum wings bending or cracking way too easy. The steel ones have a hard enough time taking the abuse as it is.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

bighornjd;1082090 said:


> Wouldn't be strong enough


Its as strong as you build it, They make 747s out of aluminum.


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

wow....I cant wait to see that 747 plowing snow......lmao


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

ddb why such a concern on the pump? As I said in my PM I have ran the 14" set on a 860HD for 3 years going on 4 years and no trouble with my pump. I just don't think you can build it strong enough to keep from bending and twisting the wing. Look at the steel that I'm making mine out of and I've still managed to twist a couple.
Best advice though, build them and see for yourself.


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## no lead (Dec 10, 2008)

i agree 519. make them from steel. you can re weld it easily when they fail.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Ya I don't believe it would be strong enough either.


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Weighted wouldnt be a factor on wings for me. It would be price! Make them out of steel and you can reweld them, striaghten them, whatever. Alum. i dont think would be as strong as you think for wings....or someone would be buidling them already. But heck...if its sitting around. TRY


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Make it out of iconel it'll last longer than your plow and your tuck combined!

It would be extremly hard to weld tho, but at least you have a 220,000 psi tensile strength.



Also try steel!


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Building them out of Aluminum could increase your rigidity with-out gaining any weight but if you build them strong enough to hold up they are not going to be much lighter. But they would be more rigid. The alloy you chose would be critical as well, for example 4043 would be easy to work with but would be way to soft. Plus you need to remember you want annealed aluminum for anything you want to bend. I think the biggest factor after design parameters could be cost.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

ok my thoughts over the past week have been this. The benefits of aluminum; weight, corrosion resistance. that means less wear on the pump, and not having to grind them and repaint them. The other big benefit to me is no one else seems to have done it. I like experiments.

Basher. I was thinking 6061 t56. as for cost, mild steel comes in at just under 100 for material. aluminum is just under 200. I have 3/16 or 1/4" 1.5" by 1.5" angle aluminum already. I have never heard of annealed aluminum. I dont plan on bending anything. I think the only other major concern is that aluminum looses quite a bit of strength in welding. but 1/4" 1.5x1.5 box tubing for a frame would be more than enough I figure I'll save 30-40 lbs on the pair. Now, I only have a reasonable knowledge of hydraulics. I understand fully how they work. I have replaced alot of lines. but their capacities I do not. I have a blizzard 800 hd. 

I also have a sheet of 18ga stainless steel. i would have to double it up, but That could be an option although I have never welded stainless.

I'm going to get the pricing for stainless tubing. 

I have everything I need to weld steel and aluminum. I wonder if i would need shielding gas for stainless. I know i would need a spool of stainless wire. I will look into this.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

If you're using TIG the shielding gas is the same for steel/alum/SS. If you are using MIG then you need to change shielding gases. They all require a different gas or combination of gases.

Good Luck.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

if I have enough stainless steel sheet, then its an option, 3/16 and 1/4" stainless is absurd. they also make flux cored stainless. So if i have enough in that sheet the materials for stainless wings would be in the same range as aluminum.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Frame will be aluminum, mold board is going to be stainless. I have more than enough of eatch to build this. Now I just need to engineer the space frame to resist the twisting.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I was told by my welding supplier, in MIG welding SS you can use the same gas as you use in steel welding.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Good info. Thanks bud.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

ddb maine;1083219 said:


> Frame will be aluminum, mold board is going to be stainless. I have more than enough of eatch to build this. Now I just need to engineer the space frame to resist the twisting.


You realize you can not weld the SS to the aluminum



theplowmeister;1083233 said:


> I was told by my welding supplier, in MIG welding SS you can use the same gas as you use in steel welding.


You need tri mix (90% Helium/7.5% argon/2.5% CO2) for quality SS MIG welding


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah I'll eithe r be bolting or riveting the moldboard to the frame. I don't see a possibility for a high enough shear force on the moldboard frame connection to cause concern. My main dilemma is going to be addressing the radial arm force coming to the outermost edge of the wing and wanting to pivot it back around. Which is the twisting that Purple range was talking about. I'm going to try and incorporate a design idea of a compression beam across the back of the box and catching the rotation with an extention behind the wing allowing a more direct angle connection on the wing. Essentially the push beam idea that blizzard incorporated into the piston wing connection in the 810. I just need to find the angle that will be suit my wings. I also need to weld in angle stops on the plow frame.


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## bullettooth81 (Sep 22, 2009)

Do you have any sketches of your idea? Are you thinking of sheet aluminum and SS frame, or AL frame to back up the sheet?

I would think the pours in the aluminum should hold FLUID FILM really well and would help with snow sticking to them. I think aluminum wings would look cool. Let me know how it goes.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah, my thoughts exactly on the fluid film. It's going to have to be space frame type al frame with the as sheets for a mold board. Yes steel is gram for gram stronger than aluminum. But that can be compensated for if I can divert the direct pressure away from anyone individual member and transfer it to the frame of the wing itself. I've got some napkin stuff but as I go I'll toss up the ideas.


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## bullettooth81 (Sep 22, 2009)

Are you an engineer?


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Architectural engineer. So I have done alot of force studies for bridges. Which though the scale is entirely different the same principles can be used in diverting pressure over more space to absorb the force and allow for lighter materials to be used.


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## bullettooth81 (Sep 22, 2009)

Mechanical Engineer here. Your idea sounds perfectly feasable. Good luck! Let me know how the progress goes.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Also, if it works I'm totally going to polish the day lights out of them and have chrome wings. Bling! As they as say.


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## jb1390 (Sep 23, 2008)

You should get them color-anodized. Protect from corrosion, and they will look sweet. 

The reason that no one tends to build them out of AL is cost. Also, welding is more difficult. If I were you, I would go with a 6061-T4. The ultimate strength and yield strength are further apart than T6 or T651, which should help them not to crack quite as easily near your welds. 

For attaching these-weld 2 hitch receivers onto the blade-and use square stock to mount. I use 1 2" square receiver on my wings, which allows for 1 pin. 

On a different note-If you want something different, go ahead and build these. If the only purpose is to help the hydraulics, I don't think you are gaining much. The extra weight of the steel compared to the AL is negligible compared to when you have snow stuck to the front-and blades+hydraulics are designed to carry that.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah the reasoning of weight has gone wayward since I realized I have all the stock I need in aluminum and ss. The aluminum I have is t56.


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## jb1390 (Sep 23, 2008)

I have never heard of 6061-T56. Sure it is not T651? Either way, probably not the material I would choose for welding with strength being as large of a concern as it is. It is possible-you would be best off pre-heating with a torch to get good penetration, and then let it cool under torch heat as well for a few minutes, gradually pulling the torch away. Don't quench it, and that should give you the best chance for it to work. Also, aluminum is much more thermally conductive than steel, making it difficult to get a good puddle+penetration, as the base material will pull so much of the heat away so quickly. You need a nice hot welder on thick AL.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah welding aluminum is a pain one second it's not penetrating the next it's a puddle. I have a spool gun on a Lincoln 140. I've found you have to move the gun circular fast to get a xonsistant weld it's really a two hand trick. It provides a nice stacked dime look and gets good penetration I've found. I'll check the stamping on the aluminum when I get back but I'm pretty sure it's t56.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

You are correct the .25x1 bars are t651. I do not know the t rating of the angle aluminum but it is far more sturdy it's .25 x 2x2. 
My analysis of the other wings I have been seeing is that they are incorporate using two flat planes and the problem
with that is there is no strength. It's lik having a triangle and removing The tension connection you are relying on one point to hold. I plan to keep the contour of the moldboard for an arc is able to destribute a point force over the whole arch instead of at the vertex of a triangle who's missing it's tension member. any ways... Enough talk. Time to get down to business and start posting pics. I shall return in a few days.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

jb1390;1083381 said:


> , aluminum is much more thermally conductive than steel, making it difficult to get a good puddle+penetration, as the base material will pull so much of the heat away so quickly. You need a nice hot welder on thick AL.


Why good joint preparation, some pre heat and a good TIG machine is the best way to assure good quality aluminum welds. It's tough to keep Aluminum MIG for looking ropey particularly with a spool gun. It's a lot easier with a push/pull but will never equal TIG.


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

ddb maine;1083185 said:


> I was thinking 6061 t56. as for cost, mild steel comes in at just under 100 for material. aluminum is just under 200. I have 3/16 or 1/4" 1.5" by 1.5" angle aluminum already. I have never heard of annealed aluminum. I dont plan on bending anything. I think the only other major concern is that aluminum looses quite a bit of strength in welding. but 1/4" 1.5x1.5 box tubing for a frame would be more than enough I figure I'll save 30-40 lbs on the pair.


 Wow! Steel must be pricey in your neck of the woods if your looking at $100 a set. I can build a set for $43-$45 today. The first sets I made I was at around $65 a set. The last couple times I've made 2 sets which saves me a little since I'm buying full sticks of steel and don't have a cut charge. Plus I can buy scrape steel by the pound. Any size or thickness...if its steel its a set price.

As far as saving 30-40 lbs on a pair  I'm real confused there. My 10" wings are 27lbs a piece. The 12" the scale bumps from 29lbs to 30lbs per wing. I can't see a wing that is going to be around what 13-16 lbs have the strength to hold up to this kind of force it will be taking. I hope they work out for you but, I just don't see it.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

purple ranger: the weight was a guess as I started lining things up on the plow I realized they aren't nearly as large as I had expected. I don't expect to see any difference. Yes, steel is pricey these days, I'm sure I could find a cheaper way of getting the steel, but theres no cheaper way than " it's sitting in my barn" along with a bottle of argon and my welder is already set up to weld aluminum. Thanks for the connection point photos! I'm going to modify that to reduce the stress on the points. Seeing this up close makes me very confident in what I am about to pursue.

do you have a picture of your twisted wing? or can you describe it to me. I believe I already know what happened, but if the photo backs up my analysis then I am dead on with my predictions of force. if not then now is the time to know. When you get the chance. thanks bud.


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## camaro 77 (Dec 20, 2009)

you can make them out of 4130 chrome molly plate it will be a little more money than steel but it can be built with a thinner material and be strong you can also mig weld this I use this material in the racecars alot


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## camaro 77 (Dec 20, 2009)

stainless is pretty heavy I built some stainless x blade foils last year that a pretty heavy and they are all 1/8 inch and I tigged these all together and if you want to mig them then you need to change your gas and wire to do this correctly


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

concept.


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## jb1390 (Sep 23, 2008)

Those look kinda small. I would make them bigger. On the flip side-how many lots are you doing compared to drives? I never use my wings on drives-literally not worth the 30 seconds it takes to connect them. One pass in, one out regardless.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

camaro 77;1084088 said:


> stainless is pretty heavy I built some stainless x blade foils last year that a pretty heavy and they are all *1/8 inch *and I tigged these all together and if you want to mig them then you need to change your gas and wire to do this correctly


Thats pretty heavy for SS.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Bashed: as stated above the only part that's ss is the moldboard.
Jb: I have 15 drives. But these aren't city drives. They are .25mi plus. Start narrow and open up into all configurations. Being able to gather the snow from the entry and being able to bring up into the back in one pass will pay for itself. If it's a regular season this year my side sifts will hit 3' in no time if I windrow.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

I don't think basher was talking to me . Scratch that.


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

What is the width of the wing? And I would tilt the wing in more. The wing I have pictured in this thread was one of my early ones and it could come in some more. Especially since your using this on a straight blade.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Depth in line with the plow is 12". The angle is 30 degrees.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Depth in line with the plow is 12". The angle is 30 degrees.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

came across some steel today... would it be a safe assumption that 4x4x3/8 angle steel might be a bit over kill for a connection frame? I've got to 10' pieces. Wondering if a steel shop would swap them for some 1.5"x1.5"x 3/16...


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

ddb maine;1087155 said:


> came across some steel today... would it be a safe assumption that 4x4x3/8 angle steel might be a bit over kill for a connection frame? I've got to 10' pieces. Wondering if a steel shop would swap them for some 1.5"x1.5"x 3/16...


Yeah, I'd think that would be way  overkill. When you say connection to the frame what are you saying? Connection the wing to the plow???


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Where does the steel come in? I thought it was SS and Aluminum


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

basher;1087622 said:


> Where does the steel come in? I thought it was SS and Aluminum


I got two 10' pieces of 4x4x3/8 steel for free. The only concern right now is cost, then weight. This is what I was thinking. I would have to cut it apart, but I dont see this ever causing me any problems. I suppose the only concern might be that its too strong and my damage the plow instead of breaking off. Red is welded to the box, purple is welded to the wing. I also have enough plate steel to build the box on the wing out of 3/16 steel. but the two side supports I'm still lacking.
weight of this connection is 18 lbs per, roughly


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

better use of weight


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

I would think this would be sufficiently strong and light ( 9lbs) and would break the shear pins instead of something else.


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## ajman21 (Oct 30, 2009)

so are u still building the frame out of alum? just a thought but untreated steel riveted on alum will cause the alum corrosion rather quickly. I am not sure if the rule is the same for stainless.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

I thought about the corrosion as well. The original plan was Aluminum but I have since come across some angle steel. so now I have the same amount of each. I'm hoping to get to spend some time in the coming weekends on this.


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## jb1390 (Sep 23, 2008)

Be sure to add some gussets to that rendering you did (or don't add them on the rendering, but make sure they are there on the wings, and plow).

If you don't, that will just twist off if you hit something (curb) on the lower portion of the blade. You need something to make it torsionally rigid.


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

Have any updates on this project yet?


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

unfortunately not. I'm currently dealing with a non-paying customer and the inevitable court proceedings. Why do people ask for things they cannot pay for?


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

*update finally*

So the plan of building them out of aluminum has changed. I now have more steel than aluminum and so there you have it. The moldboard is 3/16 plate steel grooved and bent o match existing mold board, will be welded closed on the groove side. I am going to continue building the supports and connection points now. I also have some Ideas up my sleeve, see how they pan out. They are 10" at the bottom, giving me somewhere around 8.5 in line with the plow. This was dictated by the plate I had. but I have a solution to that. Anyways.... pics.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

After measuring the wings are about 9.5" inline with the plow. This is a good distance for me, I have a few accounts that are rather narrow. but for those times when I have an open runway, these will expand them to 16". still wondering if thats a bit big... anyways.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

connection system, 5/8 bolts. These things are strong, banged around on them a bit with a 5lb sledge. picked up the rubber for the edge too today.


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

I like what you have done so far. I think they will work well for you.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks bud! I appreciate the help and ideas you've given me along the way. Too bad the welder is in the shop.... under warranty so it could be worse. I'm going to mock the cutting edges now and do some trimming. Even with a razor knife, this stuff is crazy to try and cut. 
To anyone trying to find rubber cutting edges. I just went to my local Rubber Company, Portland rubber company on west commercial. 10" tall by 1.5 thick is like $25/ft and 12" is 35. Thats the cheapest I could find around here, any other place wanted me to buy a full 8ft piece for 350+, They'll cut it to what ever size you want, and they are the suppliers for the rubber cutting edges. no more middle man.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

ok, well got the welder back last week. Finished the welding and over the holidays painted them. I will most likely get them powder coated next year, but for now I'm ready to go. I need to take it to a flat lot to adjust the edges. This old driveway looks like an old trucking route with these ruts.

Much better clearance now at full angle.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Looks great! What part of Maine are you in? We're all meeting up this weekend if you want to join us.


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## ddb maine (Dec 4, 2009)

Fortunately, and unfortunately I'm building this weekend. I started a list in the networking category to get some phone numbers to together for maine. Do we have a list already? I couldn't find one.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Not yet I don't think. I'm sure we can definitely get one together though.


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