# air brakes in a pickup?



## snowman3725 (Jan 25, 2007)

alright heres one to really get your heads spinning. What about an air brake conversion in a 1996 7.3 powerstroke? I know the new F650 has air brakes in it..... anyone have any suggestions? :salute:


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Why would you want to?

Plus, you'd need a Commercial Driver's License with Air Brake endorsement.


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## Proscapez LLC (Aug 9, 2006)

I seen one back in 2000 at Expressway ford in Clio, Mi.
It was a F350 supercrew powerstroke, with self inflating tires, air suspension, and brakes.
4 leather lariat chairs, 360 degree radar, night vision. It was a proto type for the miltary.


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## BOSS550 (Jan 19, 2007)

*air brakes*

No thanks-- big trucks havem cuz they need em. I never liked the small lag time and nonexistent feel of air brakes let alone always crawling underneath to check slack adjusters. But if you find something I'd be curious to check em out!


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## Antnee77 (Oct 25, 2005)

I'm sure it could be done without issue, but I have never seen or heard of a kit for this conversion and I wouldn't imagine that it would be inexpensive to custom build one. Also, as stated previously, you would have to go out and get a CDL to drive around a Class 3 truck, which is a waste, IMO. You're better off upgrading your setup to larger rotors and more effective calipers/pads with stainless steel braided lines for better feel.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

Mick;360718 said:


> Why would you want to?
> 
> Plus, you'd need a Commercial Driver's License with Air Brake endorsement.


I WISH ALL YOU PEOPLE WOULD LEARN THE LAW BEFORE YOU SPOUT OUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW. A CDL IS BASED ON THE GVWR OF THE VEHICLE NOT THE TYPE OF BRAKES IT HAS!!! YOU CAN GO TO RYDER OR ANY OF THOSE OTHER TRUCK RENTAL PLACES AND LEASE A TRUCK TO USE AS A COMMERCIAL VEHICLE WITH A 25,500GVW AND AIRBRAKES ALL DAY LONG WITH OUT A CDL.AND THERE IF NO AIR BRAKE ENDORSMENT THERE IS ONLY A RESTRICTION JUST LIKE IF YOU WERE GLASSES YOU ARE RESTICTED TO WEREING THE TO DRIVE.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

In MN you would need an air brake endorsement to operate/drive a vehicle with air brakes.
Regardless of GVWR.

It the law. 

Rental trucks.
Most of them are juice brakes:waving:


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

SnoFarmer;361288 said:


> In MN you would need an air brake endorsement to operate/drive a vehicle with air brakes.
> Regardless of GVWR.
> 
> It the law.
> ...


show me in writing were it states you need an air brake endoresment to drive a vehicle under 26k with air brakes. something by the state not what you think you know. and i know for a fact that ryder has thousands of 25,500 GVW trucks with air brakes and you do not need a cdl to drive them.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

clark lawn;361282 said:



> I WISH ALL YOU PEOPLE WOULD LEARN THE LAW BEFORE YOU SPOUT OUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW. A CDL IS BASED ON THE GVWR OF THE VEHICLE NOT THE TYPE OF BRAKES IT HAS!!! YOU CAN GO TO RYDER OR ANY OF THOSE OTHER TRUCK RENTAL PLACES AND LEASE A TRUCK TO USE AS A COMMERCIAL VEHICLE WITH A 25,500GVW AND AIRBRAKES ALL DAY LONG WITH OUT A CDL.AND THERE IF NO AIR BRAKE ENDORSMENT THERE IS ONLY A RESTRICTION JUST LIKE IF YOU WERE GLASSES YOU ARE RESTICTED TO WEREING THE TO DRIVE.


This is where I got the requirement regarding Air Brake endorsement. I think this should be considered an authority.

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm


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## carl b (Dec 28, 2006)

clark lawn;361282 said:


> I WISH ALL YOU PEOPLE WOULD LEARN THE LAW BEFORE YOU SPOUT OUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW. A CDL IS BASED ON THE GVWR OF THE VEHICLE NOT THE TYPE OF BRAKES IT HAS!!! YOU CAN GO TO RYDER OR ANY OF THOSE OTHER TRUCK RENTAL PLACES AND LEASE A TRUCK TO USE AS A COMMERCIAL VEHICLE WITH A 25,500GVW AND AIRBRAKES ALL DAY LONG WITH OUT A CDL.AND THERE IF NO AIR BRAKE ENDORSMENT THERE IS ONLY A RESTRICTION JUST LIKE IF YOU WERE GLASSES YOU ARE RESTICTED TO WEREING THE TO DRIVE.


HERE:yow!: HERE.... JUST WAS AT THAT SITE AND IT SAID 26'001 OR HIGHER


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## Proscapez LLC (Aug 9, 2006)

unless the law has changed anyone can go rent and drive a semi, as long as it is for you and not used for business.


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## Antnee77 (Oct 25, 2005)

Vehicles under 26,000 lbs. GVWR don't require a CDL, not 25,500.


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## snowman3725 (Jan 25, 2007)

well this ones gotten interesting huh? :realmad: a CDL does not require an air brake endorsement in MA, just some companies prefer and/or require their employees to be properly trained with the equipment. CDL is classified as anything above 26,001lb, excluding school busses. The idea of this discussion was to see what people thought of it, and i like the idea because you probably would never see a pick-up let out a loud release of air anywhere. I think it would be completely one off, and using the right set-up i think there would be minimal brake pedal reactions and feels, but a whole lot of extra weight with the air tank and compressor and canisters.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Test Name Take If... 
Passenger Transport ...you want to drive a bus 
*Air Brakes ...your vehicle has air brakes* 
Combination Vehicles ...you want to drive combination vehicles 
Hazardous Materials ...you want to haul hazardous material or waste in amounts which require placarding 
Tankers ...you want to haul liquids in bulk 
Doubles/Triples ...you want to pull double or triple trailers

source..http://www.aitaonline.com/CDL/Requirements.html


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Lawns & More;361324 said:


> unless the law has changed anyone can go rent and drive a semi, as long as it is for you and not used for business.


The law never changed. Go get a big truck. You will need the proper 
cdl to operate/drive it even if you are not for hire.

There are class A, B and C motor homes and you will need the right lic.

There called class A,B,or C because of the lice endorsements you will need to drive it.

It does not matter what the gvwr is you will need the air brake endorsement.


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## dirt digger (Feb 27, 2005)

i just took the CDL test about 4 months ago here in PA and could probably recite every word from the manual to you...a CDL is based on weight class...26,001lbs. or above you have to have one...an air brake endorsment is required ONLY if you have airbrakes on your truck that has a GVWR of 26,001lbs or above. you can go drive an F650 with a 26,000lb GVWR with air to the rear and not need an edorsment or a CDL, however you cant drive an F800 with a 33k GVWR with air brakes and not have a CDL....


but to the original post i would think air brakes in a truck that small would be a hassle...air brakes are strong and you would proabaly end up locking up the tires more then you want.


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## BOSS550 (Jan 19, 2007)

*air brakes*

Air brakes are not an endorsement--they are a RESTRICTION regardless of GVW. That's why they are a separte test in the CDL test. Endorsements are HAZMAT, tankers, doubles etc...You need to have that RESTRICTION lifted to be legal to drive a CMV. Motorhomes fall into another category as far as airbrakes go. If your CMV has airbrakes you need that restricion lifted. If you still insist Dirtdigger, I'll hire you for my lawyer next time and see if I get better results. IF I lose you pay the fines.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

boss are you saying that you got a ticket for a vehicle under 26,000# with air brakes for no CDL. if so and your lawyer fail in his job you better get another one that graduaded from law school and didn't get his degree in the mail. do you have a CDL if so look at it there is no air brake endorsment it is a restriction on a CDL just like eyeglasses would be a restriction if you need them.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

Antnee77;361396 said:


> Vehicles under 26,000 lbs. GVWR don't require a CDL, not 25,500.


i know its 26000# just that about 90% are rated at 25500#


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## BOSS550 (Jan 19, 2007)

Clark--under 26 K doesent mean no CDL. Then It's a Class C CDL. It's a Commercial Motor Vehicle. Not a motorhome, not a motortoter, not a private vehicle. Those all have their own laws and regulations. If it has air brakes and it's used for BUSINESS (Commercial) regardless of GVW you need to have the air brake restriction lifted from your DL . As far as a restriction or endorsement try rereading my last post. What you said is what I already stated. Maybe you should be my lawyer then in the future


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## poncho62 (Jan 23, 2004)

*I know here, guys with big 5th wheel trailers need the "A" license now., even private owned..............They didn't before.......Recent law........*


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## Wesley's Lawn (Sep 18, 2002)

Straight from the states website.

http://www.dps.state.mn.us/dvs/index.html

What is a commercial motor vehicle? 
State law defines a commercial motor vehicle as a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles used to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle:

1. has a gross vehicle weight of more than 26,000 pounds
2. has a towed unit with a gross vehicle weight of more than 10,000 pounds and the combination of vehicles has a combined gross vehicle weight of more than 26,000 pounds; 
3. is a bus (designed to seat 16 passengers or more, including the driver); 
4. is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials that are required to be placarded under Code of Federal Regulations, title 49, parts 100-185;
5. is outwardly equipped and identified as a school bus.

It also says "An air brake ENDORSEMENT are is only required if your vehicle needs a CDL"

Don't believe me, Look at section 5-1 of the CDL manual http://www.dps.state.mn.us/dvs/DLTraining/DLManual/PDF/CDLManual.pdf

I have a class D with a DOT health card and I drive trucks lic at 26k without a air brake endorsement. Thats why my buddy lic his 33k truck at 26 so he wouldn't need a CDL and air brake endorsement. My dad drives a dock truck lic at 26k with air brakes with out the endorsement with a class D lic also.


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## BOSS550 (Jan 19, 2007)

Hey guys, we not only got way off topic here; but I bet we could keep this pointless arguement going for quite a while. Anybody come up with an airbrake conversion????


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## scuba875 (Dec 22, 2004)

clark lawn;361305 said:


> show me in writing were it states you need an air brake endoresment to drive a vehicle under 26k with air brakes. something by the state not what you think you know. and i know for a fact that ryder has thousands of 25,500 GVW trucks with air brakes and you do not need a cdl to drive them.


He is correct the air brakes are listed on your dl in the restriction part and the endorsements are things like double, triples, hazmat, and tanker. I have a class A cdl with T endorsement no restrictions. This means I can drive any combination vehicle with air brakes, and I can pull doubles or triples. I can not drive any hazmat, or tankers.

Just because Ryder rents them doesn't mean you might not need a CDL. I have a friend who just got audited by the DOT and he was told that even in his 4 F350 stake body trucks that he would need CDL drivers, and that each one would need the medical card. Simply because they are commercial owned and operated vehicles, so be careful about what you think the law says. Talk to a DOT attorney who handles audits and cover your rear.

The CDL code is not as black and white as it appears. I personally never thought you would need one for a 1 ton pick up but as my friend just found out the hard way in some cases you do. It cost him a lot of money in fines, time and attorney fees.


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## snowman3725 (Jan 25, 2007)

enough with the god damn restrictions and laws and everything. what cop is actually going to be smart enough to even think of such a thing to cite you for? none around here at least. Now, back to the point, give me some suggestions on the AIR BRAKES(not laws or restrictions) themselves.. PS... anyone want to send some snow to Boston?? :salute:


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## dirt digger (Feb 27, 2005)

snowman3725;362142 said:


> enough with the god damn restrictions and laws and everything. what cop is actually going to be smart enough to even think of such a thing to cite you for? none around here at least. Now, back to the point, give me some suggestions on the AIR BRAKES(not laws or restrictions) themselves.. PS... anyone want to send some snow to Boston?? :salute:


i'm curious if you do this conversion where your going to get the brake drums small enough to fit on a ford axle...or will you get new axles or custom made drums?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;361523 said:


> The law never changed. Go get a big truck. You will need the proper
> cdl to operate/drive it even if you are not for hire.
> 
> There are class A, B and C motor homes and you will need the right lic.
> ...


Actually SF, in MI, he's correct. I can go rent a semi for the weekend to move my belongings and legally drive where ever (at least in MI) I want without a CDL. There is an exemption and yes it scares the crap out of me knowing any idiot can get in a truck and drive it.

As for the air brake restriction, I think this is going to change in the near future. A friend of mine who was a deputy and now drives a delivery truck part time drives a CDL cheater\beater with air brakes throughout MI, IN, IL and OH. So he does keep a log book and does stop at the open weigh stations. They gave him a bunch of crap at the IN weigh station just over the border about the temps of his goods--ended up throwing away $600 worth of food because they delayed him--and told him he needed a CDL because of the air brakes. He's even more blunt than I am if you can believe that and doesn't take crap from anybody if it's unjustified and got into it with the motor carrier officer regarding the CDL. Cited them chapter and verse regarding the above statements and links. Ended up going to this officer's supervisor to complain about the food spoilage and other piddly crap and still does not need a CDL.

While I have always been led to believe that anything with air brakes requires a CDL, I am now leaning towards that this is an incorrect interpretation of this requirement. Or the motor carrier officers have been doing a fine job of revenue generation for the states. I sure wouldn't believe they would ever do that.

All I'm saying is just because this is the way it's always been, doesn't mean that it is correct.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Wesley's Lawn;361708 said:


> Straight from the states website.
> 
> http://www.dps.state.mn.us/dvs/index.html
> 
> ...


Your buddy is only going to get by with this until he gets stopped. The license means he can only carry that much because that's what his plate says. The CDL requirements are based on the GVW of the truck, not the plate. So if he gets weighed and he's over 26K, he'll get a ticket for overweight even though his truck can carry 33K.

See #1 in your post if you don't believe me.


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## Proscapez LLC (Aug 9, 2006)

SnoFarmer;361523 said:


> The law never changed. Go get a big truck. You will need the proper
> cdl to operate/drive it even if you are not for hire.
> 
> There are class A, B and C motor homes and you will need the right lic.
> ...


SnoFarmer,
I was a driver trainer for Monroe Trucking in West Monroe, LA. then they were bought out by Burlington Motor Carriers and I stayed on with them as a Driver Trainer.
I didnt say you can put "not for hire" signs on it and be legal.
Most companys that move there on products and Race teams have "Not for hire" on them.
But they have to have a CDL because its for a company.

Now If its for personel use, you are or were not required to have a CDL.

But then again, I would like to see the average joe jump in to a semi and try and drive it.
Most of my trainee's couldnt shift 1 gear, after they got out of there truck driving schools.
The first thing I use to do with them was to put them in a loaded truck 70-80 thousand pounds and let them try and drive it around are yard. 
Maybe 1 out of 20 could even get the truck moving.
I used to do it as a way to break them down, and Show them they knew nothing about trucks and there CDL didnt mean nothing, because they still couldnt drive.

Also if the truck is operated by a farm, you didnt need a CDL.


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## Wesley's Lawn (Sep 18, 2002)

Mark Oomkes;362210 said:


> Your buddy is only going to get by with this until he gets stopped. The license means he can only carry that much because that's what his plate says. The CDL requirements are based on the GVW of the truck, not the plate. So if he gets weighed and he's over 26K, he'll get a ticket for overweight even though his truck can carry 33K.
> 
> See #1 in your post if you don't believe me.


We know all about the only being able to carry 26k, the whole thing was that anyone could drive it without needing a CDL which was more important then being able to carry 33k. He didnt lic it that way to get around the CDL and carry more then what you can with out a CDL.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Wesley's Lawn;362293 said:


> We know all about the only being able to carry 26k, the whole thing was that anyone could drive it without needing a CDL which was more important then being able to carry 33k. He didnt lic it that way to get around the CDL and carry more then what you can with out a CDL.


The real point is, this truck requires a CDL no matter what weight you have it plated at. Look at #1 of your post. Any truck with a GVW over 26,001 requires a CDL. No ifs, ands or buts. The license plate does not mean squat when it comes to needing a CDL, it is all about the truck's GVW. The license plate only allows you to haul or tow up to 26K. So your friend is screwing himself out of payload because he is trying to get around the CDL laws and he isn't, at least not legally.

If you don't believe me, I dare you or him to drive it down to the weigh station or nearest motor carrier\DOT office and ask them.

I have a CDL cheater that is plated at 32K because of the trailer we haul with it. I need a CDL for the trailer but not the truck. I can legally carry\tow up to 32K with this truck, even though it is rated at 25,990. However, if the truck by itself weighs over 25,990, I'm still overweight because of the truck's GVW. That's the whole purpose of these CDL cheaters. My truck's springs are rated for 28K, but the axle combination is 26K, keeping me beneath the CDL requirements.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Lawns & More;362279 said:


> .
> 
> Also if the truck is operated by a farm, you didnt need a CDL.


Thats where I learned how to operate equipment and how to drive trucks and your right
you don't need a CDL. if you are engaged in farm activities.
Nothing like a 13 year old kid going down the road in a tractor pulling 3 corn wagons.lol
There is a (farm) permit if you are under age to drive.

Mark.O.. so, you can not leave your state with your class A or B motor home. lol
You still will need the right LIC to go on vacation. I have seen where some DOT scales are requiring RV's to stop at them. ..

air brakes
You guys are right it is a restriction, you need to take a test to get it lifted in MN


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

anyway back on the original post. i think it would be too costly of a conversion to make it a worthwile gain in braking power. i would upgrade the brake conponets you already have on your truck and trailer. maybe add a better electric trailer brake controller and add an engine brake to the powerstroke. I'm grossing 39k with my stock f550 and it does okay stopping, wish it was little better. what are you weighing in at? if your under 30k gvw you should be able to stop on a dime.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;362313 said:


> Mark.O.. so, you can not leave your state with your class A or B motor home. lol
> You still will need the right LIC to go on vacation. I have seen where some DOT scales are requiring RV's to stop at them. ..


Last I heard on the RV's with regards to MI is that they were supposed to leave them alone as they are private vehicles. Haven't seen any in weigh stations yet.

Too much lobbying power there to have them start harassing those guys much, IMO.


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## Wesley's Lawn (Sep 18, 2002)

Well he hasnt had any problems with the DOT the way the truck is, when he got it inspected and when the DOT did a roadside inspection on him.


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## snowman3725 (Jan 25, 2007)

im not actually considering doing it for the power of braking, im just curious on if anything like this has ever been done, and i think it would be awesome to see something like this done. ive never seen it, and it sounds like no one else has either? it would make one hell of a project....:salute:


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## BOSS550 (Jan 19, 2007)

I'd try looking for rears out of a International AWD truck at a truck salvage yard. Depending on what you find and your budget you could either swap the entire axle assembly's into the truck or maybe just the braking hardware with some adapters for the calipers to the Ford axle flanges. The adapters would probably need custom built--but you wanted a project right????? It would probably go together easier if you could find disks rather than drums. Brakes that size will probaly require bigger dia. wheels. I guess depending on what axle you end up using will determine the bolt pattern ---Ford or IH or????? I would think the compressor shuld be pretty simple something like what the mobile truck tire changer guys use. Around here it's mostly F250's with engine driven air compressors. May be a little challenging finding somewhere to mount the tank and dryer. Keep us posted on your progress!!!


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

i think it would be a PITA driving a pickup with air brakes..... one example of a problem i run into with our semi whenever i park it inside the shop.......it takes about 5 minutes for the air pressure to build up enough before i can even move it. in the sub freezing temps we have had for the last 3 months i dont like to leave the overhead doors open in the nice warm heated shop for too awful long to air all the smoke out. usuall i'll fill up the air tanks with a air compressor before i start it up so i can move it and shut the door right away. i cant imagine anyone wanting to let a big powerstroke run in your garage for five minute and then leave the door up another five minutes to let the garage air out before you leave for work in the morning. i guess you could get the really old brakes from the 70's that don't have springs in them, but that wouldn't be much of an upgrade.


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## Proscapez LLC (Aug 9, 2006)

I have to admit I wouldnt want air brakes on my daily driver or my work truck.
there is just way to much maintance invovled. even with there auto slack adjusters.
I remeber one reason why they use them is if you had a leak you wont lose your brakes as the air refills to a point.
But most trucks run drum brakes, because disk cost way to much for trucks. at least that is what I remeber.
But drums over heat to quickly, try goin down the grapevine or the cabage patch maxed out without a jake and you'll know what I mean.

Seriously I would love to see disk brakes and jake brakes as standard equipment on all trucks, but it aint going to happen.

Drum breaks just suck!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Lawns & More;365996 said:


> Seriously I would love to see disk brakes and jake brakes as standard equipment on all trucks, but it aint going to happen.
> 
> Drum breaks just suck!


Ford has had disc brakes all around on the 250-550 SD's for several years now. At least since '99.


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## Kuchocki (Dec 14, 2005)

Monster Garage built a motorcycle out of a rig and it had air brakes. 

The 99 GMC Super Duty came with 4 wheel disc brakes too. My father bought his for that reason.


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## 84deisel (Dec 2, 2003)

Jay brown;365957 said:


> i think it would be a PITA driving a pickup with air brakes..... one example of a problem i run into with our semi whenever i park it inside the shop.......it takes about 5 minutes for the air pressure to build up enough before i can even move it. in the sub freezing temps we have had for the last 3 months i dont like to leave the overhead doors open in the nice warm heated shop for too awful long to air all the smoke out. usuall i'll fill up the air tanks with a air compressor before i start it up so i can move it and shut the door right away. i cant imagine anyone wanting to let a big powerstroke run in your garage for five minute and then leave the door up another five minutes to let the garage air out before you leave for work in the morning. i guess you could get the really old brakes from the 70's that don't have springs in them, but that wouldn't be much of an upgrade.


 If it takes 5 minutes for your air to charge ,then I would look for a leak in the system.Our trucks hold air for days even weeks.


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## snowman3725 (Jan 25, 2007)

the heavy haul kenworths that come into my company take about 20-30 seconds to build up enough air to move and stop safely, and my truck doesnt fit into my garage either. plus you know the saying, diesel smoke makes me horny :salute:


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