# Best skid steer



## awhip

Hey guys. So I'm thinking of getting a skid steer to expand my snow removal capacity. Right now i have an old one ton, new pickup and new one ton all with plows and Sanders. Bought an older 2 yard loader last winter to push banks with. Don't really use it in the summer except in the yard. 
I have a good residential snow route now that i can do with one tuck. Im working on expanding on the commercial side, last year i did two small businesses. I want to get a skid steer to outfit with a wing plow that i could leave on a site. 
My question is what do i get? I'd use it in the summer for moving material on the construction site, pallets and crushed stone. I think i like tracks, i know i don't want the big pad style for snow. I think with the right tracks it would do great with a 10' plow. Im looking at the bobcat t595 or the kubota 75. Anyone with experience in either?
I'm also considering a wheel machine because of the price. But it would be less efficient in the summer. My work for this machine would be about 50/50 summer / winter. Guess is like to hear from you guys that have had both tracked and wheeled and what you liked better. Thanks!


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## Triple L

Deere 331g! Most machine for the dollar hands down


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## John_DeereGreen

If you don't have a justified use for the track machine, don't buy it. They cost about 15 bucks an hour more to own and operate compared to the same size wheel machine.


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## Triple L

I would tend to agree with that statement.... My buddy just asked me last week why I didn't buy a tracked Deere skid over a tire one... My answer, there is usually only 3-4 days a year where the tracked machine would benefit me over a tire machine... For those days we'll just take the day off and wait for things to dry up a bit or rent a machine... Sure beats a 18k undercarriage rebuild


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## CptCanuck

There was a Kubota skid working next to one of my malls last year with tracks and I must say it was impressive the amount of snow it could push. That being said, like others have mentioned tracks are way more expensive than wheels and if you cant use it in the summer the tracks may not be justified. Guy in my yard runs all bobcats for his asphault grinding business and the amount of abuse they take from operators and insanely dusty conditions is impressive. I have older cats just because I find their local service very good. I run tires because like others have said I cannot justify the cost of tracks.


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## awhip

Makes sense. I agree that there will only be a handful of days the tracks would really make the difference. Plus upfront cost and maintenance. So, bobcat s650, kubota 75 wheeled machines, what would be the comparable deere, 324e? Any favorites? Id like to be able to load a tri axle, like 8k class.


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## Triple L

For me I could get a large frame Deere 330g for the same price as a bobcat s650...


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## absolutely

We have a t590 2 speed and with snow tracks it pushes a Metal Pless 7 - 12' wing plow great. Dry snow it could easily push a lot more but the wet ones it struggles a bit. We also have a s650 with Kage 9' and snow tires. That machine out plows the track machine by 25%. Both machines are less than 2 years old.


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## John_DeereGreen

Where's @plow4beer? Or @Mark Oomkes?

These two would be able to tell you very well the comparison of tracks to tires on same size skids.

Absolutely, you're saying a 9' Kage outplows a 7-12 wing plow?


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## absolutely

John_DeereGreen said:


> Where's @plow4beer? Or @Mark Oomkes?
> 
> These two would be able to tell you very well the comparison of tracks to tires on same size skids.
> 
> Absolutely, you're saying a 9' Kage outplows a 7-12 wing plow?


Yes if moving snow from point a to point b. The kage is on a bigger machine and I feel the tires grip better than tracks.


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## Mark Oomkes

He's bizzie


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## Mark Oomkes

If I only have 1 skidsteer, it will be a tracked machine. Sure, costs are higher, but they are far more productive in dirt. Power to weight compared to a wheeled machine is lower, but they're basically small dozers. Ours was pushing a 10' LiveBoxx with no problem, this year it will be an 8-13 PlowMaxx. The S650 is oof lease and going away. 

BTW, when it comes to Bobcats, I will most likely always lease. Make sure the contracts cover the lease payments plus fuel, labor, maintenance and turn it back in every 3 years. No worries aboot the tracks, the emissions BS or the copious amount of electrical\computer crap in them. They can be someone else's problem. 

I don't see it happening differently if I went with a different brand either. It's just too expensive to keep them very long.


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## John_DeereGreen

absolutely said:


> Yes if moving snow from point a to point b. The kage is on a bigger machine and I feel the tires grip better than tracks.


I didn't catch the snow tires on the S650. That makes sense to me too.


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## awhip

talked to bobcat guy about a lease yesterday. Seems like the way to go for me, lower payment, stay in warranty, full write off ,loose it before it starts to have issues. I think if i could pay for it in the winter and have a skid to use all year that would be Neato.
Now I had a guy tell me his newer tracked bobcat kept freezing up fuel or emissions system in the winter? That sound familiar to anyone or did he have a bad go? Ill talk to my local jd guy about a lease, but bobcat has a sweet deal on t650 right now so seems like the way to go for me. 
Now what do i put on it? Thinking the new fisher rig or Quattro plow because I'm still new and don't have much money to spend, but i like the hla and metal pless wing plows.


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## Mark Oomkes

awhip said:


> Now I had a guy tell me his newer tracked bobcat kept freezing up fuel or emissions system in the winter?


If the fuel is freezing up, it's piss poor fuel. Never had an issue with ours. Then again, the 6 series frame doesn't have DEF.



awhip said:


> but i like the hla and metal pless wing plows.


Go with one of these.


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## John_DeereGreen

awhip said:


> Now what do i put on it? Thinking the new fisher rig or Quattro plow because I'm still new and don't have much money to spend, but i like the hla and metal pless wing plows.


It would be a crying shame to put either of the first 2 options on a machine that capable.

Spend the coin on a wing plow. You'll be glad you did.


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## Hysert

100% with Mark.... once you run a track machine you will never go back to wheels!!! Way more smooth no bouncing, lifting and balance on hills is far superior!! Our Kubota has over 2400hrs with original U/C!!! from what I've heard white and yellow mmachines are replacing U/C parts around 12-1500hrs?? i had a few rollars screaming this spring, with the kubota at least it was a easy job, loosened the track off dropped the rollars, unscrewed the lube boss and topped up with gear oil... rollars are smooth and quiet ever since, took about a hr!! But if your basing your purchase on snow then wheel is much faster to push with......


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## Hysert

Mark touched on the power to weight ratio, also a good thing I like over heels is the Pounds per square inch!! Our Bota comes in around 11k lbs which is about 4 PSI, when doing grading your not chasing ruts!! And crossing water or wet areas are virtually unnoticable...


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## Mark Oomkes

Hysert said:


> Mark touched on the power to weight ratio, also a good thing I like over heels is the Pounds per square inch!! Our Bota comes in around 11k lbs which is about 4 PSI, when doing grading your not chasing ruts!! And crossing water or wet areas are virtually unnoticable...


That last sentence is very important to me...


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## plow4beer

John_DeereGreen said:


> Where's @plow4beer? Or @Mark Oomkes?
> 
> These two would be able to tell you very well the comparison of tracks to tires on same size skids.
> 
> Absolutely, you're saying a 9' Kage outplows a 7-12 wing plow?





Mark Oomkes said:


> He's bizzie


I've been very bizzie.



Mark Oomkes said:


> If I only have 1 skidsteer, it will be a tracked machine. Sure, costs are higher, but they are far more productive in dirt. Power to weight compared to a wheeled machine is lower, but they're basically small dozers. Ours was pushing a 10' LiveBoxx with no problem, this year it will be an 8-13 PlowMaxx. The S650 is oof lease and going away.


It's almost like you copied and pasted this...I feel like I've posted this 100 F'ing times on this site.

Hands down the best brand SS/CTL's on the market are Bobcat, Cat, & Takeuchi


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## awhip

So... ran a skid steer for the first time in a while today... can't see a gd thing! I ran an s650 with bobcat controls and not a fan. It's neat that you can spin it in a circle, but that's about it. Trying to load granite on my trailer i couldn't see the forks were in my face! I'm more used to running loader now and I'm wondering now why i wouldnt just get a smaller loader i could put on my gooseneck trailer. L30-l35, Kawasaki 45, deere 304?
I like to have the right tool for the job.

Also this is some of what we do, pictures are fun


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## Mark Oomkes

awhip said:


> So... ran a skid steer for the first time in a while today... can't see a gd thing! I ran an s650 with bobcat controls and not a fan. It's neat that you can spin it in a circle, but that's about it. Trying to load granite on my trailer i couldn't see the forks were in my face! I'm more used to running loader now and I'm wondering now why i wouldnt just get a smaller loader i could put on my gooseneck trailer. L30-l35, Kawasaki 45, deere 304?
> I like to have the right tool for the job.


LOL...I can commiserate. I love the skidsteer for a lot of stuff, but after running my 544 aroond the shop, man do I love loaders. Pretty sure it will be the same when my 244 comes in. Even over a tractor which has fantastic visibility over a truck.

But, where I have my skiddy, it's the only productive piece of equipment that will fit in the ramp. And I need one for landscaping work. If I could get a 4 Series Deere in the ramp, that is what I would have, more than likely.

I do start wondering about either leasing or finding halfway decently used loaders for plowing though, maybe I just got lucky with my 544, but it's a great machine and will be a shame to use it strictly for loading salt, but it is what it is.


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## reedo

I have a Cat 262D and a 257D. I run an 8' Kage on the 262 with Wolf Paws tires and the 9' Kage on the 257. The 257 will out push the 262 in every type of condition we experienced last season. I was really impressed with that machine.


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## reedo

As far as Bobcat goes I experienced a ton of problems with the Doosan engine in the S650 we purchased in 2015. Was only able to put 49 hours on it that winter because anything below 15 degrees was freezing up the fuel system and the dealer had it most of the winter trying to figure out a solution. We purchased it in November and sold it in March with less than 90 hours since we had a loaner machine a majority of that season. 
We have not experienced any problems with the Cats since switching over besides a heated seat switch and a quick attach motor got weak after 600 hours on the 262.


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## bluejlandscaper

Definitely a compact wheel loader will more productive than a skid steer. The visibility of the compact wheel loader is so much better than a skid steer, wheeled or track machine. Stay with a Cat or John Deere compact wheel loader and add a HLA or Metal Pless wing plow.


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## SnowMatic

reedo said:


> I have a Cat 262D and a 257D. I run an 8' Kage on the 262 with Wolf Paws tires and the 9' Kage on the 257. The 257 will out push the 262 in every type of condition we experienced last season. I was really impressed with that machine.


reedo,
Your saying the 257 will out push the 262 with a full pusher full of snow.

But time wise do you find the 262 faster? Taking less time to plow? Obliviously a wheeled machine will go 'faster' (11mph-262 vs 9.9mph-257) and with the Wolf Paws should go even faster yet and your pushing 9ft with 257 vs 8ft with the 262 but if both machines were with a 8 ft box which would you find to be faster time wise since the 262 has faster ground speed?



reedo said:


> As far as Bobcat goes I experienced a ton of problems with the Doosan engine in the S650 we purchased in 2015. Was only able to put 49 hours on it that winter because anything below 15 degrees was freezing up the fuel system and the dealer had it most of the winter trying to figure out a solution. We purchased it in November and sold it in March with less than 90 hours since we had a loaner machine a majority of that season.
> We have not experienced any problems with the Cats since switching over besides a heated seat switch and a quick attach motor got weak after 600 hours on the 262.


Concerning the 2015 bobcat engine problem, do you or anyone else know whether the newer 2017 models still have this issue. Looked at some bobcats this week and I brought this issue up to the sales guy and he says that the problem has been resolved, they apparently heat the fuel first before it goes thru the filter thereby solving the problem. IDK


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## Maclawnco

awhip said:


> View attachment 173443
> View attachment 173444


@Mark Oomkes , take note. This is how you float a machine. Lol.

But seriously, unless you *must* have a skid steer, i dont know why people wouldnt just jump to a mid or full size wheel loader. We have 3 we own just to plow with. Price was less than a skid loader for each one. Those and my salt trucks print money for us.


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## reedo

The 257 does out push the262 with a full pusher of snow, even with a bigger pusher. 
Yes the 262 is a little faster with the wolf paws, especially in light snows. Once the snow gets deep or heavy or you encounter really slippery conditions the 257 walked all over the 262. It seems where the 262 starts to spin and slow down or stop the 257 may slow a little but will keep right on pushing. I was extremely happy with its performance and comfort. You don't bounce around at all hardly.


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## reedo

Ours has far as I know that problem still exists. I still hear about it in my area. From what Bobcat told us it has more to do with your local fuel supply but we have no problems with the fuel system on the Cat machines. From what I learned Bobcat is running a 2 micron fuel filter where everything else is running a larger micron fuel filter.


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## SnowMatic

reedo said:


> The 257 does out push the262 with a full pusher of snow, even with a bigger pusher.
> Yes the 262 is a little faster with the wolf paws, especially in light snows. Once the snow gets deep or heavy or you encounter really slippery conditions the 257 walked all over the 262. It seems where the 262 starts to spin and slow down or stop the 257 may slow a little but will keep right on pushing. I was extremely happy with its performance and comfort. You don't bounce around at all hardly.


Do you use the angle blade without the box on your kage much? If so, do find that when using the blade on angle with the 257 in heavy or deep snow that the machines back end would tend to want to lose traction and start to make the skids rear slide around at an angle with the plow. (if that makes sense)



reedo said:


> Ours has far as I know that problem still exists. I still hear about it in my area. From what Bobcat told us it has more to do with your local fuel supply but we have no problems with the fuel system on the Cat machines. From what I learned Bobcat is running a 2 micron fuel filter where everything else is running a larger micron fuel filter.


Well that doesn't help my situation much if its still a problem. Was going to go with a cat but im having height issues. Think im left with something like 1/8 inch clearance for the roof, thats not much. Thats where the bobcat is nice cause its has a lower roof clearance and theres no need to worry. But if its gonna have fuel issues then, whats the point. Guess im stuck with a problem either way.


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## Mark Oomkes

Maclawnco said:


> But seriously, unless you *must* have a skid steer, i dont know why people wouldnt just jump to a mid or full size wheel loader. We have 3 we own just to plow with. Price was less than a skid loader for each one. Those and my salt trucks print money for us.


I'm realizing that, it's worth some time and looking aroond to find a loader that will plow 2-3x as much as a truck. Very happy with the 544 I bought and would love to put it on a route. And I'm quite positive I will be just as pleased with the 244 I am leasing. Even over tractors. We'll see how it goes.

Like I said, the only reason I have the one is because it is the most productive machine that will fit in the ramp...plus I need one during the summer.


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## awhip

I'd love to get another mid size loader, i just don't use the one i have that much in the summer. If i got a mini loader i could trailer it, and would use it on site in the summer feeding rocks and crushed stone to excavators. That's why i was thinking skid steer. But after running that one the other day, i felt trapped, it sucks visibility wise. I Can see a tracked machine would go better in the mud and be nice for finish grade, but id probably just end up grading on the way out with an excavator anyway. 
Mark, why did you go 244 instead of 304? visibility? I haven't priced out a new one but i see late model machines (2 yrs old) in my area for 65-70k. Price is a factor, but if I'm gong to spend 60k purchase or 900 a month for lease, I'd spend a little more to get what i want.


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## Mark Oomkes

awhip said:


> Mark, why did you go 244 instead of 304? visibility? I haven't priced out a new one but i see late model machines (2 yrs old) in my area for 65-70k. Price is a factor, but if I'm gong to spend 60k purchase or 900 a month for lease, I'd spend a little more to get what i want.


I don't have a great answer...price, size, maneuverability?

One of the 2 main accounts it will be used at sucks. Tons of small areas but limited stacking and lots of fairly short pushes but it can be a lot of snow. Far too big for a full size loader\pusher and we were fortunate last year with the skidsteer because it was truly undersized. If we would have had a normal winter, it would not have been good. If it was a big enough account, a skid would probably be OK.

The other has lots of fairly long pushes. Skid is waaaaaay undersized for anything other than setting up for a loader\pusher. But the loader is approximately 1/2 hour away. And we have some time the majority of the time to plow the entire lot (opens at 9). My hope\plan is that on snowfalls under 6-7" I can skip having the loader\pusher run up there, but the 244 is a good fit for both accounts.

We had a tractor with 8611\Ebling up there 2 years ago, worked great but that was before the parking lot reconfiguration.


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## reedo

SnowMatic said:


> Do you use the angle blade without the box on your kage much? If so, do find that when using the blade on angle with the 257 in heavy or deep snow that the machines back end would tend to want to lose traction and start to make the skids rear slide around at an angle with the plow. (if that makes sense)
> 
> We use the blade without the box all the time on every site for along curbs, back dragging, etc.
> I don't notice anything like that with the 257 that you don't experience with any other equipment. When windrows get so big they will tend to push you away a bit but that's the case with tires or a truck even. When running in 2speed you have more momentum to overcome this. Is that what you are referring to?
> 
> Well that doesn't help my situation much if its still a problem. Was going to go with a cat but im having height issues. Think im left with something like 1/8 inch clearance for the roof, thats not much. Thats where the bobcat is nice cause its has a lower roof clearance and theres no need to worry. But if its gonna have fuel issues then, whats the point. Guess im stuck with a problem either way.


Where are you located? Maybe talk with others in your area that have recently purchased a Bobcat that use it in the winter a lot to get their opinions. I just know everyone I have talked to in my area since my experience has had the same problems. It doesn't seem to matter if it's stored in a heated shed or outside and plugged in they all have had recurring problems and I was sick of having new equipment dead at 1am every time the temps dipped below 15. We have been extremely happy with Cat machines and their parts and service. We had also felt the same way about Bobcat until they changed engines. The dealer tried all they could do to make us happy but the company as a whole didn't offer any other fixes and blamed the fuel. That's when I decided it was time to switch. We have not had any problems with fuel since going to Cat.


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## Aerospace Eng

reedo said:


> Ours has far as I know that problem still exists. I still hear about it in my area. From what Bobcat told us it has more to do with your local fuel supply but we have no problems with the fuel system on the Cat machines. From what I learned Bobcat is running a 2 micron fuel filter where everything else is running a larger micron fuel filter.


I don't know if this is the issue, but small mesh size can lead to iced filters. If is fuel system icing, use Prist, just be sure to follow directions on spray can and mix it with the stream as you fill.


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## SnowMatic

Mark O..
You have or had some Bobcat skids, have you had the fuel issue problems with your machine(s)? Know you mentioned somewhere that your leasing your machines so you more than likely have a newer style doosan engine.

Reedo..
Did you get ride control on either one of your cat machines?


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## absolutely

Both of my machines have the Doosen Engine. We never had trouble with fuel in either machine. I am a stickler for using additives (power services I think) though. We dump it right in our tank at the shop and circulate occasionally. We had problems a while back that left our New Holland stranded a couple times and I vowed to not let it happen again.

I have ride control on the S650. It's Awesome!!!


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## Mark Oomkes

SnowMatic said:


> Mark O..
> You have or had some Bobcat skids, have you had the fuel issue problems with your machine(s)? Know you mentioned somewhere that your leasing your machines so you more than likely have a newer style doosan engine.


Negative Ghostrider.

Both Doosans. The only time we use additives if it gets down aroond 5°or below. Our fuel comes from one of the largest suppliers in the area though.



SnowMatic said:


> Reedo..
> Did you get ride control on either one of your cat machines?


If you're getting a wheeled machine, get ride control. If you get a tracked machine, they ride smoother than a wheeled with ride control.


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## reedo

What I was told is different areas use different additives in their fuels. In MN I think they are mandated to use at least 20% biodiesel in their blend by 2018. From what I understand that is the thing causing the problems is the **** they are putting in fuel now.


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## Mark Oomkes

That makes sense. Just like the ethanol ruining 2 cycle equipment. 

Is there any options like rec gas for diesel?


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## reedo

We run off road and still had problems. The fix they recommend is straight #1 diesel fuel. When we tried that the machines turned into gutless turds.


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## Mark Oomkes

http://www.startribune.com/minnesota-s-biodiesel-mandate-costly-risky-unfair/265623301/


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## reedo

Yeah it's a bunch of garbage and it's only getting worse.
I don't know what other states have laws like this but I found this out through bobcats regional rep when we were trying to figure out how to make that machine work. I finally just gave up and have been happy with what we have to this point.


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## Mark Oomkes

It's kind of Bobcat's fault if your Cat is running fine. They just need to use a larger micron filter. 

But it's still stupid. Just like the ethanol crap they force us to use.


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## John_DeereGreen

We run a B10 blend in all our off road stuff and haven't had any issues. All Bobcat. Owned machines that are plowing in the winter are Kubota engines, we had 2 winter rentals last winter with no issues either but it also didn't get that cold and they didn't get a ton of hours.


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## SnowMatic

Guess I need to check my last fuel bill and see what it says for the fuel. I know its offroad and think it said bio, but at what percent I dont know. Not even sure if they would put that on there. Gonna have to check tomorrow.

So what happens if you put a larger micron filter in the bobcat instead of the 2 micron...Nothing good I suppose


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## reedo

SnowMatic said:


> Guess I need to check my last fuel bill and see what it says for the fuel. I know its offroad and think it said bio, but at what percent I dont know. Not even sure if they would put that on there. Gonna have to check tomorrow.
> 
> So what happens if you put a larger micron filter in the bobcat instead of the 2 micron...Nothing good I suppose


You will probably have to call and find out exactly what blend of fuel it is. That's the thing though, it's a crap shoot and you just don't know if you will have problems. They should make them to run on any fuel like other manufacturers.

I asked about running a different filter and they said no go with that fuel system. The high pressure injectors need that level of filtration or you can cause more problems I was told.


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## SnowMatic

Well no one was able to give me a percentage of what the 'blend' is.
My last few bills have been described as "Premium DX-4 OffRoad"
So a little searching..

https://www.countrymark.com/countrymark/Fuels/PremiumDieselex-4/ProdSpecs.aspx

https://www.countrymark.com/countrymark/Fuels/PremiumDieselex-4/WinterOperability.aspx

SDS sheet for DX4
https://www.countrymark.com/countrymark/Fuels/SDSforFuel.aspx

Does this offer any help in determining if the fuel would be a problem with the bobcat?


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## reedo

It says nothing about biodiesel content. I would be very hesitant on going that route. Who's to say the state won't mandate something like Minnesota did over the next few years of ownership. In a case like that what may work now might be nothing but trouble in the future.


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## SnowMatic

That is a good point. 
May have my issue with the cat's height issue resolved tomorrow, so we will see. If so then im not limited with going w bobcat.


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## awhip

Trying out t740 and tl210. Impressed with yanmar pushing power and its quiet. Bobcat is real stable (its longer and wider) and real fast, its also real loud. Spins when diving into pile though, yanmar just kept pushing. Bobcat gets points for styling, yanmar is ugly. Yanmar is $3k less. Kubota comes next week.


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## Hysert

Yanmar?? Since when?? Looks Gelhi ish..... and it looks like a toy beside that bobcat...


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## awhip

Hysert said:


> Yanmar?? Since when?? Looks Gelhi ish..... and it looks like a toy beside that bobcat...


It is a gelh, yanmar bought them a few years ago i think. It does everything really well. I think I'm going with the bobcat though i like the size and with the small motor, no def


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## GW_

For snow, 2-speed is a must and traction (no CAT type D-pads). I've used a 10' foot plow with ASV RC100/TL150/Case85XT, works perfect. For summer, unless I'm helping a paving company I'll take a track machine on every job, no comparison. Purely from operator's stand point, no financial stake behind this thought.


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