# Switching from bulk salt to liquid. Please check my numbers.



## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

Hey guys, we are thinking about switching most of our Ice control over to liquid from bulk salt and I just want to make sure I’m not missing anything in this process as there is quite a learning curve!
I know there are quite a few of you guys that will tell me do not switch from bulk salt to liquid... I’ve literally read almost every thread on this site.

Our main reason for deciding to switch over is logistics, liquid would give us a lot more options for our service area. I can pre make and store 2000gal at a time. I only have the ability to store about 10 ton of salt at one time at a cost of $175 per ton/ ice slicer and the only equipment I have to load it is a Vermeer ctx100 (Not ideal but works) takes me about 1 hr to head to the shop (out of town) to load if the road is not closed.
With liquid I would be able to fill much quicker (10 min) And have more volume on hand.
We will be making the Kubota brine maker and storing it in a 1650gal tank and I will have 2 ibc totes pre filled in town on a location.
I’m planning on making brine to a solution of 23.3% with bagged solar salt. My cost per gal for brine would be about .42 per gal. For additive I will be using amp from envriotech cost per gal $2.15. Total brine cost of $2.57 per gal, I’ll be pumping the brine into my storage tank and adding 80 gal of amp per 400 gal brine giving me a 80/20 blend. I want the higher blend because most of our accounts will be post treated and we tend to get cold and windy here.
If anyone has any tips or advice to make this transition smoother I would greatly appreciate it!


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Might be just easier to fill your tank with 330 gallons of amp and 1320 gallons of brine? That will give you 80/20 brine to amp and you can fill it in one shot. Unless I'm mis- understanding the 400 gallons brine 80 gallons amp addition. I'm understanding it as you are stopping 4 times to mix in the amp.


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Might be just easier to fill your tank with 330 gallons of amp and 1320 gallons of brine? That will give you 80/20 brine to amp and you can fill it in one shot. Unless I'm mis- understanding the 400 gallons brine 80 gallons amp addition. I'm understanding it as you are stopping 4 times to mix in the amp.


You are correct. This would be the easy way, especially with 330gal ibc totes. Assuming I can fill the whole storage tank at once. Most likely be making brine as I use it for when a big storm rolls around I'll have as much pre made as possible.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

These comments have made me aware of one thing that i never ever thought of. There is no need to have a skid steer to load if you have brine delivered to tanks. This never ever occurred to me. Im shocked I never noticed this


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

MIDTOWNPC said:


> These comments have made me aware of one thing that i never ever thought of. There is no need to have a skid steer to load if you have brine delivered to tanks. This never ever occurred to me. Im shocked I never noticed this


Yep! This is a huge deal for us. The spray unit I am looking at can even self load in under 5 minutes!


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

I bought a unit from de ice depot this year 
Put two totes infront of a tornado salter


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BRL1 said:


> Hey guys, we are thinking about switching most of our Ice control over to liquid from bulk salt and I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything in this process as there is quite a learning curve!
> I know there are quite a few of you guys that will tell me do not switch from bulk salt to liquid... I've literally read almost every thread on this site.
> 
> Our main reason for deciding to switch over is logistics, liquid would give us a lot more options for our service area. I can pre make and store 2000gal at a time. I only have the ability to store about 10 ton of salt at one time at a cost of $175 per ton/ ice slicer and the only equipment I have to load it is a Vermeer ctx100 (Not ideal but works) takes me about 1 hr to head to the shop (out of town) to load if the road is not closed.
> ...


I think you figured your costs per gal wrong

.42 per galllon of brine
If you're making an 80/20 blend with amp 
In 100 gallons you have 80 gallons of brine at 33.60 and 20 gallons of amp at 43
That gives you a cost per gallon of .76 for an 80/20 mix of brine and amp.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Might be just easier to fill your tank with 330 gallons of amp and 1320 gallons of brine? That will give you 80/20 brine to amp and you can fill it in one shot. Unless I'm mis- understanding the 400 gallons brine 80 gallons amp addition. I'm understanding it as you are stopping 4 times to mix in the amp.


The amp doesn't stay in solution with brine over time 
It would need to have the tanks stirred prior to use 
A lot of people forget this , which is why they don't store it pre mixed.


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> I think you figured your costs per gal wrong
> 
> .42 per galllon of brine
> If you're making an 80/20 blend with amp
> ...


I believe so as well...

Did a first test run on the brine maker tonight. It did well but I will need to make some adjustments, I'll need to use more salt than I originally thought in the upper tank to get all the way to 23.3%. I'll know better numbers after trying a couple more batch. 


tpendagast said:


> tpendagast said:
> 
> 
> > The amp doesn't stay in solution with brine over time
> ...


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BRL1 said:


> I believe so as well...
> 
> Did a first test run on the brine maker tonight. It did well but I will need to make some adjustments, I'll need to use more salt than I originally thought in the upper tank to get all the way to 23.3%. I'll know better numbers after trying a couple more batch.


So the "right" number is about 2.2 pounds of salt per gallon brine 
But that's assuming you have super nice pure salt 
Frequently I find that number can be 2.6 pounds of salt (impurity) 
You'll get left with some insolvable material at the bottom of the tank
your mileage may vary

do you have a professional brine maker?
If so which one?
Or are you "cooking meth" with a couple tanks and pumps in your garage?

making brine is already frustrating , I don't suggest using a hillbillies still to make your moonshine

I don't know anyone that didn't quickly out grow it or cause some kind of catastrophe using their own model.
It's just best to buy the brine from someone else , until you have the volume to legitimize spending the coin to set up your own operation.

when you're making it, remember to do it inside
There's a huge difference between testing salinity at different temperatures. 
but there is a chart to adjust for temp difference if you are a wildly different temp for whatever reason

I wish I found that chart
I used to have to let the brine get to 60 degrees before testing it

lots of wasted time


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> So the "right" number is about 2.2 pounds of salt per gallon brine
> But that's assuming you have super nice pure salt
> Frequently I find that number can be 2.6 pounds of salt (impurity)
> You'll get left with some insolvable material at the bottom of the tank
> ...


I have a hillbilly hot rod brine maker at the moment. I'll post a picture of it today. It really didn't do too bad the first time. We made our first batch in about 30-45 min with the pump on idle. I have the temp chart actually and used it last night. Our water temp is about 50 deg coming out of the ground from the well. I actually found a digital salinity tester that adjusts percentage from temp. I would love to buy a professional brine maker but at this moment I need to see if the actual process and liquid over bulk makes sense and works for us.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BRL1 said:


> I have a hillbilly hot rod brine maker at the moment. I'll post a picture of it today. It really didn't do too bad the first time. We made our first batch in about 30-45 min with the pump on idle. I have the temp chart actually and used it last night. Our water temp is about 50 deg coming out of the ground from the well. I actually found a digital salinity tester that adjusts percentage from temp. I would love to buy a professional brine maker but at this moment I need to see if the actual process and liquid over bulk makes sense and works for us.


It's definitely a volume thing 
Liquids work at lower temps than granular , if you don't get super cold for long and you aren't doing a lot of acreage , it may not pay off

we were doing close to 9000 gal a storm before we invested in a brine maker


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> It's definitely a volume thing
> Liquids work at lower temps than granular , if you don't get super cold for long and you aren't doing a lot of acreage , it may not pay off
> 
> we were doing close to 9000 gal a storm before we invested in a brine maker


we won't be anywhere near that number right now.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BRL1 said:


> we won't be anywhere near that number right now.


I remember those days

too much effort
I'd just buy it from someone at that level

500 gal holding tank
They charge you what a $1 a gallon?


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> I remember those days
> 
> too much effort
> I'd just buy it from someone at that level
> ...


We have a 1650gal and another 500 gal in totes.
I would like to get it pre made... kinda. Only pre made around here would be meltdown apex at over $2.50 per gal. I would have to order 4200gal at a time. I'm the only other person in town that will be doing liquid and I've had 4 other company's ask to try it. Either to sell them brine or do their lots.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BRL1 said:


> We have a 1650gal and another 500 gal in totes.
> I would like to get it pre made... kinda. Only pre made around here would be meltdown apex at over $2.50 per gal. I would have to order 4200gal at a time. I'm the only other person in town that will be doing liquid and I've had 4 other company's ask to try it. Either to sell them brine or do their lots.


Really

there's no guy in town that makes/sellsjust good ole salt brine?

crazy

how much can you make an hour by hill billy meth cooking?


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> Really
> 
> there's no guy in town that makes/sellsjust good ole salt brine?
> 
> ...


Nope. Closest would be Colorado and I haven't found a contact there for just salt brine.
We made our first batch of 400gal in about an hour but keep in mind we didn't know what we were doing so we ran on idle and we're checking frequently.
We are a town of about 70k people surrounded by high prairie. Getting materials of any kind here usually always come out of Colorado.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BRL1 said:


> Nope. Closest would be Colorado and I haven't found a contact there for just salt brine.
> We made our first batch of 400gal in about an hour but keep in mind we didn't know what we were doing so we ran on idle and we're checking frequently.
> We are a town of about 70k people surrounded by high prairie. Getting materials of any kind here usually always come out of Colorado.


Yeap

pretty rural

so you have Walmart's abd targets and such?
Or do you have to travel for those?


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> Yeap
> 
> pretty rural
> 
> ...


we have 2 Walmart's actually ha and one target. We have most everything I large city would have.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BRL1 said:


> we have 2 Walmart's actually ha and one target. We have most everything I large city would have.


Well at least you have big lots with customers that are potentially interested in brine.

target and Walmart both get brine here
Lowe's as well , grocery stores (home depots aren't salted here)

you've got some good potential there , since no one else is doing it yet


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> Well at least you have big lots with customers that are potentially interested in brine.
> 
> target and Walmart both get brine here
> Lowe's as well , grocery stores (home depots aren't salted here)
> ...


I won't be spraying for any of the Walmart's lows or Home Depot.
All of my current accounts are mostly monthly contracts. We have a mix of per push hourly and all the big ones are seasonal. So we aren't really looking to expand. Especially with all the box stores being under control of national brokers. We handle all the grocery stores in town safe way and Albertsons


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BRL1 said:


> I won't be spraying for any of the Walmart's lows or Home Depot.
> All of my current accounts are mostly monthly contracts. We have a mix of per push hourly and all the big ones are seasonal. So we aren't really looking to expand. Especially with all the box stores being under control of national brokers. We handle all the grocery stores in town safe way and Albertsons


Isn't Safeway and Albertsons the same company 
Do you have both in your town?

what are they about 3-4 acres of asphalt?

how much are you applying per acre?
Do you do any mechanical snow removal other than the casual plow?
How much are you charging per gallon applied in your area


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> Isn't Safeway and Albertsons the same company
> Do you have both in your town?
> 
> what are they about 3-4 acres of asphalt?
> ...


Yes we have both Safeway and Albertsons here. 2 Albertsons and 1 Safeway.

they are all under 2 acres each store

planning on applying 90-100 gal per acre depending on conditions obviously

mechanical snow removal? Please clarify what you mean by this. All our locations are 1-2" triggers so on a typical storm we will be plowing for at least 20 hrs straight nothing is casual about it. Actually really stressful

we aren't planning on applying on a per gallon basis here as most of our accounts are contracted with a salting rate thats what we will bill for.

A 1 acre site here gets me about $600 per app for just the parking lot. All sidewalks are billed per bag at $30


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

BRL1 said:


> Yes we have both Safeway and Albertsons here. 2 Albertsons and 1 Safeway.
> 
> they are all under 2 acres each store
> 
> ...


depending on the snow fall you can use a rubber bladed snow pusher (for clearing slush and mush) or a sectional pusher for clearing snow pack
So , mechanical 
"Casual snow plowing" just gets what comes off easy 
Some people just over apply an burn through if.
Other people pre apply , squeegee or sectional it off and then re apply (so you end up plowing the last less than an inch off.

If you have a two acre site that gets about 100 gal an acre and it pays $600 per app that's $300 an acre or $3 a gallon

that's a lot for just salt brine
Do you use additives like amp or apex c for that price or is that only brine?
Im assuming $600 per app covers "what ever is needed to get the job done" depending on conditions?


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> depending on the snow fall you can use a rubber bladed snow pusher (for clearing slush and mush) or a sectional pusher for clearing snow pack
> So , mechanical
> "Casual snow plowing" just gets what comes off easy
> Some people just over apply an burn through if.
> ...


We get everything we can with the plow trucks during the first initial round of plowing. If the storm is bad enough and we have a lot of hard pack we will go out overnight with the skid steers and scrape it down and get what the trucks couldn't get. I would really love to have a small articulated loader with a arctic sectional parked at our sites but it's not financially feasible. The skid steer stays at a large 16 acre apartment complex, I'm using amp right now to see how it works. Planning on running 80/20 blend


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