# SIMA/ASCA vs National Service Providers



## MajorDave

Been thinking...always dangerous...

Wanted to start a conversation about SIMA representing its members against the NSPs (I literally called today to join, but stopped to have this convo). We ARE the "constituents" of SIMA. There are an extremely disproportionately higher amount of small-business contractors/ops compared to the number of NSPs. It seems like SIMA would stand up for us...if we demand it...and lobby large businesses to hire local. There is a huge local farm-to-table and buy-local movement...why not a "hire local" movement. The businesses will certainly get better service, and we will spend more money in their businesses. Simple economics. 

SIMA preaches on their web sites about representing its members and the industry in certain legislative areas --- this is as important, if not more. This is what can change rates back to the positive of the past. 

Sure, I bet SIMA gets advertising $ from NSPs, and I think I recognized a recent name as Defcon 5 referred to as well, but if we (as the small guys) get together and lobby SIMA , it seems like it could help make a difference. SIMA should be more for us...not just getting a sticker and paying for certain accredidations (and I am honestly not trashing them...in fact, they are what seems to be a great organization). 

We all hate what the NSPs have done to the local service. We all have stories, get strange calls from Arizona asking what the going rate is, and have seen the lone 1979 pickup truck with a rusty plow stuck in the middle of Home Depot, so why not fight it. I almost can't find a place around here that doesn't use them...and make that a different one every year. But they are all directed by their Corporate HQs...this is where SIMA could help us. Will it takes some work, sure, but what doesn't. 

So, I am simply hoping for some professional comments and maybe even some ideas, and "possibly" staying on topic - hahaha....


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## Defcon 5

SIMA has many members that are NSPs....I think SIMA does a nice job on the education side and they have a nice magazine...But,..This issue has been brought up before...They will not take a stand one way or another...


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## BUFF

MajorDave said:


> Been thinking...always dangerous...
> 
> Wanted to start a conversation about SIMA representing its members against the NSPs (I literally called today to join, but stopped to have this convo). We ARE the "constituents" of SIMA. There are an extremely disproportionately higher amount of small-business contractors/ops compared to the number of NSPs. It seems like SIMA would stand up for us...if we demand it...and lobby large businesses to hire local. There is a huge local farm-to-table and buy-local movement...why not a "hire local" movement. The businesses will certainly get better service, and we will spend more money in their businesses. Simple economics.
> 
> SIMA preaches on their web sites about representing its members and the industry in certain legislative areas --- this is as important, if not more. This is what can change rates back to the positive of the past.
> 
> Sure, I bet SIMA gets advertising $ from NSPs, and I think I recognized a recent name as Defcon 5 referred to as well, but if we (as the small guys) get together and lobby SIMA , it seems like it could help make a difference. SIMA should be more for us...not just getting a sticker and paying for certain accredidations (and I am honestly not trashing them...in fact, they are what seems to be a great organization).
> 
> We all hate what the NSPs have done to the local service. We all have stories, get strange calls from Arizona asking what the going rate is, and have seen the lone 1979 pickup truck with a rusty plow stuck in the middle of Home Depot, so why not fight it. I almost can't find a place around here that doesn't use them...and make that a different one every year. But they are all directed by their Corporate HQs...this is where SIMA could help us. Will it takes some work, sure, but what doesn't.
> 
> So, I am simply hoping for some professional comments and maybe even some ideas, and "possibly" staying on topic - hahaha....





Defcon 5 said:


> SIMA has many members that are NSPs....I think SIMA does a nice job on the education side and they have a nice magazine...But,..This issue has been brought up before...They will not take a stand one way or another...


As mulch as it pains me to say this...... A union of sort would be the best tool to used controlling NSP's, however there'll always be "scabs" that would work for $.50 on the $1.00 and nothing will change.
Best thing is to not sign on with a NSP if you have any reservations.


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## Defcon 5

As a business person...It boils down to you making a choice to work for them...


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> SIMA has many members that are NSPs....I think SIMA does a nice job on the education side and they have a nice magazine...But,..This issue has been brought up before...They will not take a stand one way or another...


Beat me to it...but then again you aren't doing anything...


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Beat me to it...but then again you aren't doing anything...


Agreed....


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## MajorDave

Best thing is to not sign on with a NSP if you have any reservations.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. Its seems to me...a good number of "sign-one," seems to be the fly-by-night or basically uninformed on the NSPs.


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## MajorDave

I missed the point of "...but then again, you're not doing anything."

Meaning what?


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## MajorDave

Also... you say it's been brought up before...what are the specifics?


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## Mark Oomkes

MajorDave said:


> I missed the point of "...but then again, you're not doing anything."
> 
> Meaning what?


Defcon is doing even less now than when he was at "work".


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## MajorDave

Another point in reference to a previous reply, is that I understand you saying that they won't do that, but they should be representing the industry. Not just one particular group. And with that said, the industry is suffering with falling contract prices over the years. This is largely due to the NSPs doing what they have done. This specifically hurts the industry and SIMA is in existence to protect it. Just a thought


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## JMHConstruction

I would guess NSPs and their peole are pretty big "sponsors" of SIMA (although I don't know that for a fact). I just don't see them fighting for the little guy and leaving the nationals out to dry.

Boycotting them would be one way of trying to squeeze them out, but I see two major issues.
1. Like Buff already said, there will still be guys who do it cheap. Rather it's a guy in their 1980 half ton thinking he can do a walmart, or a new guy not knowing what he's doing there will be someone they can't find.
2. Just from being on here, it seems like many people rely on these large lots (NSP or not) to reach their needed yearly revenue. If everyone stopped using nationals most of those big lots and shopping malls would be lost. They would be forced to return back to the nationals just to keep their equipment busy.

I've never worked for one directly, but I'm sure some that I've subbed for come from an NSP. Even if as the contractor they approach you with $10k for the season, and as a way to try and change things you say no it's $20k, they will just call the next guy down the list.

Should something be done? Absolutely. But without a group like SIMA backing you (like you're suggesting) or as Buff said, a union that somehow has every snow management company in it, nothing can really change.


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## MajorDave

JMH, you summed it up well. I think we all really understand the conundrum that we are in because there will always be somebody in that 1980 truck, or I think I use the 1979 truck (!). I literally did experience my example when I saw a guy stopped in the middle of a storm in the Home Depot parking lot just sitting there. I walked up to him and said, "Hey man what are you doing?" He said, "I have no idea."
- As I said above, the problem with the scabs, so to speak, is that they simply don't know the industry or that they are crossing some imaginary picketline. They just see somebody offering them some cash to push some snow around and they think it's great. They are not educated on the issue. And don't know to go the other way. So yes, that would always be a challenge.
- The hope is, that the big lots would not go back to the local contractors.


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## MajorDave

And let's not lose the entire point:

the industry is suffering

...and SIMA is the one entity that is supposed to be watching out for the industry. There is a problem, it is recognized by snow and ice contractors, and it should be a major issue that SIMA should want to discuss, work on, and possibly affect the industry in a positive manner.


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## FredG

The best thing to do is the local public to boycott the Walmart etc. Danny Wegman don't use NSP's and he got more stores than any body in Upstate and western NY. He also advertises local grown produce and other commodities. 

I don't use Walmart for anything along with Lowes. A union would definitely help. You would only have to sign with the Laborers and operators. The problem with the union you may not work enough hours to qualify for benefits with just snow work. I don't want my construction end union because there is no scabs ruining the pay scale. 

I can't bash the Union because I always earned a livable wage and collecting my pension now. I just had a guy call me on taking over his accounts. I passed as he is always one to work cheap just to score work. I'm sure they would be offended by my price so why stir the pot.


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## Broncslefty7

do you really think companies like case snow doing 30 million dollars a season are going to give a **** what SIMA says? they called me last week for a walmart sized parking lot that was a Harbor freight in berlin CT. they where offering 315 for the first 2 inches and like 285 to salt it per application, walks included. i played with it to see if i could get them up a bit and ended up raising them 17 dollars on the salt application and 40 on the inch rate, still not worth it at all. im interested to see who they find doing it, becuase at those rates its not worth tying up a machine or even getting out of bed. but every year you will see some guy with a facy new leased loader trying to do it, and then the next year it will be someone else. SIMA may be an association for plow guys but its still a business and they will go where the money is. These NSP's are not going to change because sima asks or tells them too, and if SIMA starts working on regulations it will turn into unions and the need for trade licensing, which also doesnt work because the GVT doesnt police the people that dont run the requirements. if your out there and figured the NSP game out and figured out how to get them to pay you good money for what you are doing, thats awesome, but for people that dont want to work with NSP's there are plenty of properties that are not under an NSP that are wicked profitable. we dont work for a single NSP and make hefty margins. sure id like to buy more iron and get some bigger lots, but the NSP margins just arnt worth it for us. but good luck trying! 

even if NSP's did raise there prices, we would all undercut each other year after year so it would we would be right back to where we are now in a few years. i highly doubt your going to get every snow company to agree on the same price and bid the same price.


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## BossPlow2010

MajorDave said:


> And let's not lose the entire point:
> 
> the industry is suffering
> 
> ...and SIMA is the one entity that is supposed to be watching out for the industry. There is a problem, it is recognized by snow and ice contractors, and it should be a major issue that SIMA should want to discuss, work on, and possibly affect the industry in a positive manner.


What do you want SIMA to do with the industry in regards to NSP's
Also SIMA isn't the only snow and ice management trade association, ASCA is pretty big too.


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## Mark Oomkes

MajorDave said:


> And let's not lose the entire point:
> 
> the industry is suffering
> 
> ...and SIMA is the one entity that is supposed to be watching out for the industry. There is a problem, it is recognized by snow and ice contractors, and it should be a major issue that SIMA should want to discuss, work on, and possibly affect the industry in a positive manner.


So you think regulations are going to solve the problem?

It's the free market, you have the option to say no. Or become a better NSP.


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## MajorDave

Broncslefty7 


Broncslefty7 said:


> do you really think companies like case snow doing 30 million dollars a season are going to give a **** what SIMA says?
> 
> -You missed the point - no, of course not! Haha....but, there could be a lobbying aspect directed to the actual contract provider.


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## MajorDave

BossPlow2010 said:


> What do you want SIMA to do with the industry in regards to NSP's
> Also SIMA isn't the only snow and ice management trade association, ASCA is pretty big too.


Same answer as above...possibly a "hire-local" campaign? I am trying to generate some thought.


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## MajorDave

Mark Oomkes said:


> So you think regulations are going to solve the problem?
> 
> It's the free market, you have the option to say no. Or become a better NSP.


Define what regulations you think would be used. Would be interesting to hear what you think.


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## MajorDave

...and just so you all know, I am just raising the issue that everyone *****es about. Discussion is good...but it is takes other ideas to move it forward. I agree with all the issues, the status quo, and what could/could not happen. I'm just trying to generate some thought besides the negativity. Any actual directional thoughts out there?


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## JMHConstruction

I guess I was under the impression (silly me) that you were talking about trying get SIMA to talk to corporate companies about ditching nationals for snow because the service would be better for them. Not getting nationals to pay better.

Either way, I think it's just the way of the world now. If we as professionals don't take the B.S. price offered, maybe after a few year of terrible service things might change. Although year after year I see terrible service and things haven't changed.


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## MajorDave

JMHConstruction said:


> I guess I was under the impression (silly me) that you were talking about trying get SIMA to talk to corporate companies about ditching nationals for snow because the service would be better for them. Not getting nationals to pay better.
> 
> Either way, I think it's just the way of the world now. If we as professionals don't take the B.S. price offered, maybe after a few year of terrible service things might change. Although year after year I see terrible service and things haven't changed.


You got it EXACTLY, JMH... that is what I was thinking. Certainly not the other way around! ...kind of centering on the hire local...


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## ktfbgb

Technically even if they are using a NSP to source the work, its being performed by local contractors. 

Legislation is not the answer, it never is.

Lobbying by SIMA, if they would actually do it, is by definition, asking for legislation. 

There has got to be a breaking point at some point where the chains that are using the NSP’s demand better service or them all together. At a certain point lower cost is going to become a liability for the chains because of the horrible service they are getting. I dont know what that point is, but it sounds like Defcon has actually seen some Big box stores dumping the model. Hopefully the trend continues. I think we need to hold out. The free market always wins, just be patient. In the mean time there is plenty of realestate to plow that isn’t managed by a NSP.


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## Luther

JMHConstruction said:


> I guess I was under the impression (silly me) that you were talking about trying get SIMA to talk to corporate companies about ditching nationals for snow because the service would be better for them. Not getting nationals to pay better..


This exact scenario is happening, but not by SIMA. The ASCA is carving the way to help the industry in ways most of you don't realize.

Great thread Major Dave


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## Luther

ktfbgb said:


> Legislation is not the answer, it never is.


I'll have to disagree with you kt. It most certainly is. The ASCA, along with its members have been introducing new legislation in multiple states to combat the very foundation these nationals are using against the local service providers. Unfair indemnification. It's been their tradition to put all the liability on the shoulders of the contractor performing the work. Illinois became the first state to pass this bill and put it into law. Bills are already introduced in several other states. This is a huge initiative championed by the ASCA.


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## BossPlow2010

Luther said:


> I'll have to disagree with you kt. It most certainly is. The ASCA, along with its members have been introducing new legislation in multiple states to combat the very foundation these nationals are using against the local service providers. Unfair indemnification. It's been their tradition to put all the liability on the shoulders of the contractor performing the work. Illinois became the first state to pass this bill and put it into law. Bills are already introduced in several other states. This is a huge initiative championed by the ASCA.


Totally agree.
Also here is a good photo of some ASCA contractors


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## ktfbgb

Luther said:


> I'll have to disagree with you kt. It most certainly is. The ASCA, along with its members have been introducing new legislation in multiple states to combat the very foundation these nationals are using against the local service providers. Unfair indemnification. It's been their tradition to put all the liability on the shoulders of the contractor performing the work. Illinois became the first state to pass this bill and put it into law. Bills are already introduced in several other states. This is a huge initiative championed by the ASCA.


Ok I'll agree that legislation that helps even the liability across the field would not be so bad. From this thread I was not thinking along those lines since the majority of the thread was about $.

I still would never support any legislation that attempted to fix pricing, operational level procedures, or the like. Look at the VA and Medicare. I do not want the government involved at all when it comes down to that level. Which is what the OP was talking about originally. Having SIMA lobby to increase prices or get rid of NSP's all together. Neither of which the government should have any say in.

I am a huge supporter of tort reform especially in the medical field. It's supposed to be that you can sue for damages for gross negligence. That is not the case anymore and everyone sues everyone over nothing. So the same kind of reform that would switch some of the burden back over to make it more equal on both parties while at the same time making it harder for some idiot that slips on the ice to sue anyone, I'm all for. Slipping on ice is a fact of life if you live where there is ice. You can avoid it by moving to Florida if you don't want to slip. The only reason that should qualify for a slip and fall lawsuit should be gross negligence which would mean that either the property never tried to secure snow removal services or they did and the contractor did not actually come and plow. That's it. And back in the day when I was a Medic, in order to have a gross negligence case they had to prove that I not only acted outside of what my
Peers would have done in the same exact situation but that there was also intent to cause harm. That is not the case anymore and the law should go back to the true spirit and meaning of negligence for everything we do.


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## MajorDave

Good discussion...

Great point about legislation --- not so much controlling pricing etc...but the fact the NSPs throw ALL liability and insurance costs at the local guy. This, in my option, is an example of good "oversight." I need to look that up. Actually was in Chicago all week. Sitting in plane taxiing for home (NYC) now.


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## MajorDave

Also - must freely admit that I do. Ot know much of the difference between the two organizations. Will investigate before I join.


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## Broncslefty7

Comes back to the same thing though. Get rid of NSP’s they are gone pricing is good. Until you all start undercutting each other like idiots again. In five years the price is as low as it’s ever been.... some idiot under bid me by 20k and included hauling. I laughed and said good luck, but why leave he money on the table it’s stupid. I’m sure they will be calling for me to bail them out mid winter and when they do they will be paying a significant emergency fee. Stop price dropping. Realize there’s value in what you are providing and price accordingly. It’s not illegal to make money


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## Luther

ktfbgb said:


> I am a huge supporter of tort reform especially in the medical field. It's supposed to be that you can sue for damages for gross negligence. That is not the case anymore and everyone sues everyone over nothing. So the same kind of reform that would switch some of the burden back over to make it more equal on both parties while at the same time making it harder for some idiot that slips on the ice to sue anyone, I'm all for. Slipping on ice is a fact of life if you live where there is ice. You can avoid it by moving to Florida if you don't want to slip. The only reason that should qualify for a slip and fall lawsuit should be gross negligence which would mean that either the property never tried to secure snow removal services or they did and the contractor did not actually come and plow. That's it. And back in the day when I was a Medic, in order to have a gross negligence case they had to prove that I not only acted outside of what my
> Peers would have done in the same exact situation but that there was also intent to cause harm. That is not the case anymore and the law should go back to the true spirit and meaning of negligence for everything we do.


Did you say tort reform?

http://www.snowmagazineonline.com/article/the-asca-invades-washington/


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## Mark Oomkes

NSP's are no different than Wal-Mart. And neither is going away entirely.


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## Mark Oomkes

MajorDave said:


> Good discussion...
> 
> Great point about legislation --- not so much controlling pricing etc...but the fact the NSPs throw ALL liability and insurance costs at the local guy. This, in my option, is an example of good "oversight." I need to look that up. Actually was in Chicago all week. Sitting in plane taxiing for home (NYC) now.


You don't have to accept all the liability...just say no.


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## ktfbgb

Luther said:


> Did you say tort reform?
> 
> http://www.snowmagazineonline.com/article/the-asca-invades-washington/


Good on you guys! I'm going to look at joining ASCA. It seems as though they are doing a whole lot more than SIMA. Thumbs Up


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## Broncslefty7

I didn’t think Sima did much of anything. Maybe if they merged


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## BossPlow2010

Broncslefty7 said:


> I didn't think Sima did much of anything. Maybe if they merged


SIMA does a lot of educational seminars, webinars and conferences, they also have their symposium which often has some pretty smartand successful keynote speakers.


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## Herm Witte

ktfbgb said:


> Good on you guys! I'm going to look at joining ASCA. It seems as though they are doing a whole lot more than SIMA. Thumbs Up


 I will ask the question, Do you know what SIMA does and has done? I am confident both organizations have more positive attributes than negative ones. Not accusing but it is a lot easier for us to be critical than to get involved and work towards a common goal.


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## Luther

Well said Herm. SIMA is a wonderful organization. They were the first organization to help defragment and organize our industry. The ASCA is doing the same in addition to things SIMA doesn’t do, or at least hasn’t done in the past.


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## FredG

There is plenty of HOA and apt, office complexes, Hospitals, Hotels, Casinos you name it to plow. You do not have to be plowing Walmart's and big box that think they are doing the right thing to there advantage.

Nsp's are here to stay for awhile. I refuse to be a part of the race to bottom. I don't work to turn dollars or keep anybody busy on my crew. Plow guys are dropping like fly's and there is always some :terribletowel:buying a new truck to take there place. It is what it is.


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## Defcon 5

BossPlow2010 said:


> Totally agree.
> Also here is a good photo of some ASCA contractors
> 
> View attachment 173978


The one contractor in the center of that photo...I think I know him


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## FredG

Defcon 5 said:


> The one contractor in the center of that photo...I think I know him


Whens the next one. Quite a few ladies present. lol


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## ktfbgb

It seems to me that SIMA is more involved with standardizided training and safety for the snow industry and coming up with standardized best practices. Something that is great and needed. It appears with out doing much research that the ASCA is doing the watchdog work on capital hill. Both are important. 

I guess I am lucky where I’m at in that we just dont have to deal with the crap you do further east. Out here its still basically, it snows, its winter, you are in the mountains, if you slip and fall you should be more careful mentality. That may eventually change with the influx of people from other areas to ours though. But for now we have it a lot easier than you guys do. I’m glad to be a member on this site, of SIMA, and now probably ASCA so that if it does change, like for instance if salt starts getting used on parking lots some day, Ill be ahead of the curve and ready to implement much faster than most in my area. Most plow companies here have never herd of SIMA, or ASCA. They just do it how its always been done. Hopefully when the time comes Ill be able to imerge as a leader in the the area.


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## Luther

The ASCA created and established the snow and ice management industry standards. They also wrote and created SN 9001, the iso- Version standard for snow and ice management. That would be the Zenith of company certification. Not sure exactly the number but there are close to 30 iso-certified snow and ice management companies in North America. Individuals can also obtain ASCA-C certification similar to SIMA‘s CSP and ASM certifications.


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## Broncslefty7

Only place I worry about slip and falls is at one of my accounts on the outskirts of the city... the property owner warned me about the people in the area lol


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## Luther

kt, SE Michigan Is a very litigious area. Lots of lawyers in the area need to make a great living. They live in big houses and like nice stuff.


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## Luther

Changing the laws will help turn the tide for all of us in the boat.


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## MajorDave

ktfbgb said:


> Good on you guys! I'm going to look at joining ASCA. It seems as though they are doing a whole lot more than SIMA. Thumbs Up


Agree. I have a call scheduled with leadership at SIMA tomorrow. I'm going to also explore the other as well.


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## MajorDave

Broncslefty7 said:


> I didn't think Sima did much of anything. Maybe if they merged


Now your making sense and progress. That's a good idea, but then egos get in the way. But positive growth is uncomfortable and usually not welcomed!


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## Defcon 5

MajorDave said:


> Agree. I have a call scheduled with leadership at SIMA tomorrow. I'm going to also explore the other as well.


Let us know how that call goes.....I will be waiting on pins and needles....


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## MajorDave

Herm Witte said:


> I will ask the question, Do you know what SIMA does and has done? I am confident both organizations have more positive attributes than negative ones. Not accusing but it is a lot easier for us to be critical than to get involved and work towards a common goal.


This is what I am trying to start...and hopefully did. First, I get all the "that won't work statements," but then you start to see innovative ideas push through the griping. Again - positive change is never easy and often not wanted by leadership.

I still go back to a simple strategy of "hire-local." Sure, some cut-throats will underbid, (and they will fail) but if we can organize locally and spread the education, maybe it we can strengthen instead of eating each other alive.


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## FredG

Luther said:


> kt, SE Michigan Is a very litigious area. Lots of lawyers in the area need to make a great living. They live in big houses and like nice stuff.


This is correct, The Lieyers will take any case they can get without a retainer, They win some and they lose some but averages out well for them. My biggest thing is to have salt spread and present. I agree with KT as to the general public using caution under snow and ice conditions. My bids on seasonal will always have 10 to 12 extra salt trips for the wizards calling all the time when it does not need salting.


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## MajorDave

Herm ... would be a good statement to have on their websites. And also agree that they have done good. I'll see if anything exists. 

And certainly not saying they don't do anything. (Referring to both organizations.)


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## Broncslefty7

I had one slip and fall last year. The company called and asked for an invoice showing we had salted within 24 hours. Their lawyers handled the rest and I never heard another word about it


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## Broncslefty7

Legislation: you can only work in your state.... that would piss some NSP off


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## Defcon 5

Dave....I give you credit for your efforts...But the fight if that's what you want to call it against the NSPs does not start with SIMA....The fight starts with uneducated contractors that have no clue on their costs or what it takes to run a business...They are the ones taking these NSP contracts and terms...this is a pretty low entry business...With that you get pretty low entry people


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## MajorDave

Defcon 5 said:


> Dave....I give you credit for your efforts...But the fight if that's what you want to call it against the NSPs does not start with SIMA....The fight starts with uneducated contractors that have no clue on their costs or what it takes to run a business...They are the ones taking these NSP contracts and terms...this is a pretty low entry business...With that you get pretty low entry people


This is EXACTLY the problem. If everyone knew what was happening and the situation, then they could walk away, and then "in theory," these said contracts would not get serviced...thus, forced to hire local.


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## MajorDave

...oooorr, the pressure causes the NSP to PAY A FAIR PRICE, ON TIME, FAIR CONTRACT STIPULATIONS, HIRES RECOGNIZED and ESTABLISHED LOCAL CONTRACTORS, and PAYS A FAIR PRICE (did I say that already!?).

...*just had another idea* --- maybe the "hires recognized and established local contractors" is a key. Maybe we belong to a local chapter of a union (I use this term loosely and possibly only from a lack of a better term) and the big box stores and NSPs only use members. This squeezes the yokal out with a 79 rust bucket. I guess I don't just say SIMA or ASCA because anybody can join (as far as I understand.)

Just another thought.


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## Defcon 5

My hope is and I think we are starting to see it on a small scale...The Large retailers are starting to recognize that the NSP model is not saving them the money or hassles of lawsuits that were promised....I know in this area Walmart has ditched the NSP for snow and are awarding contracts direct with them...I take this as a positive sign since Walmart was one of the first to March towards the NSP...I hope other retailers and properties take notice


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## Defcon 5

My hope is Kevin from the ASCA will come on here and shed some light on this and the accredition that snow contractors can pursue...He is a Busy man..But all I ask if he does...Hear him out...There are a few on here that just like to stir the pot...


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## MajorDave

Defcon 5 said:


> My hope is Kevin from the ASCA will come on here and shed some light on this and the accredition that snow contractors can pursue...He is a Busy man..But all I ask if he does...Hear him out...There are a few on here that just like to stir the pot...


Man...that's the truth!

I've been on their web site for a couple hours. Putting in a call to him tomorrow.

Good article on Mass legislature similar to what was explained earlier in Illinois. ( I cannot attest to the similarities as I have not yet read the Illinois report as of yet.)

https://www.ascaonline.org/article/massachuesetts-h2369-asca-hold-harmless/


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> My hope is Kevin from the ASCA will come on here and shed some light on this and the accredition that snow contractors can pursue...He is a Busy man..But all I ask if he does...Hear him out...There are a few on here that just like to stir the pot...


There are???


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> There are???


Could you please leave the Buffoonery for the Off topic threads with your posse


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Could you please leave the Buffoonery for the Off topic threads with your posse


Understood


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## Mark Oomkes

Major Dave, the SIMA history is rather long and they might not appreciate it being aired. A lot of the current staff might not even be aware of it.

In a nutshell: I don't have any faith that SIMA will do anything about NSP's because they wouldn't do anything about one of the founding members who basically went bankrupt, screwed over many subcontractors and vendors to the point that they went bankrupt. He wasn't stripped of his CSP certification, the only thing that happened was a couple years later he was removed as "Immediate Past President" and anything to do with the operations of SIMA. Shortly after, ASCA was born with his backing.

Yeah, call me cynical.


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## Defcon 5

Cynical and Bitter is no way to go through life...Maybe Shadow could give you a Hug


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Cynical and Bitter is no way to go through life...Maybe Shadow could give you a Hug


Maybe he could...although I doubt it.

Cynical or realistic...you pick.


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## BossPlow2010

Mark Oomkes said:


> Major Dave, the SIMA history is rather long and they might not appreciate it being aired. A lot of the current staff might not even be aware of it.
> 
> In a nutshell: I don't have any faith that SIMA will do anything about NSP's because they wouldn't do anything about one of the founding members who basically went bankrupt, screwed over many subcontractors and vendors to the point that they went bankrupt. He wasn't stripped of his CSP certification, the only thing that happened was a couple years later he was removed as "Immediate Past President" and anything to do with the operations of SIMA. Shortly after, ASCA was born with his backing.
> 
> Yeah, call me cynical.


Did you congratulate him on his lifetime achievement award?


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## Defcon 5

BossPlow2010 said:


> Did you congratulate him on his lifetime achievement award?


PLEASE don't get him going...


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## Herm Witte

I will reiterate, both organizations have more positive attributes than negative. IMHO, it is not to be a referee. Let's work on the positives and move forward. Both organizations are working towards the betterment of our industry.


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Maybe he could...although I doubt it.
> 
> Cynical or realistic...you pick.


I have a Third pick....but I'm not allowed to say it on here....Back on topic fellas


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## Mark Oomkes

Herm Witte said:


> I will reiterate, both organizations have more positive attributes than negative. IMHO, it is not to be a referee. Let's work on the positives and move forward. Both organizations are working towards the betterment of our industry.


Agreed Herm...but if they won't learn from their mistakes....


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## MajorDave

Interesting info, but if they could advertise their achievements...which I guess the "news" section does, it would be of help. On a not-for-profit I started and run, I keep a "running timeline news feed" going to chronically the life/news/achievements of the org...


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## MajorDave

But yes - entire idea is to produce change for the good --- always require much discussion and it is truly difficult as some can't let personal feeling go for the benefit of the whole...but, that pretty much is the recipe. Some good discussion here...


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## MajorDave

Spoke with the SIMA CEO, Martin Tirado, today at about 10:15 EST, and I am happy to report it was a positive conversation. I also told him I was going to post this in our thread, and he was totally fine with that. I will give you bullet points of the conversation in order to keep this as brief as possible, given the subject :

- We had a very good introductory talk. I told him of my background, and he reciprocated. I did learn that the organization has been around for 20 years; and, he has been there for 10 years. So his point of view definitely has some longevity.
- I basically asked what SIMA did, and he went through the gamut of their operations. It is certainly all positive, and the education you receive for the price is actually exceptional. Also, just so you all know they have a special going - buy one year, and get the second for free. I thought that was pretty good. Also BOSS plows is giving you a $100 credit towards your classes. And $200 of your entry fee can be used for education as well. This is just me finding this out on my own, and certainly not a sales pitch. I am just sharing in case anyone is interested.
- We did then get into a point to discussion on the national service providers and here is a short break down:
- I laid out what our position was, and how we thought the industry was being affected. He actually agreed and reports it is a fragmented industry. They understand the problem and have actually discuss this with national big-box chains. I was totally upfront with him and he professionally acccepted my opinion in actual agreement .
- A study was completed last year. There are 22,000 service providers that run from basically one truck all the way up to highly sophisticated operations. As I understood, this does not include the national service providers.
- He said we should consider the national service providers almost equivalent to property management companies. Deals can be made with them, but as we all know that is quite difficult.
- He suggested that we, as contractors, look at the national service providers as our customers... honestly, did not quite get this point, but I did want to report it.
- His final comment was the most poignant. SIMA has a gentleman, Phil Saxton, who actually represents SIMA with the national chains (Big-box stores, etc.). Interestingly, he said that many of the big-box stores look at membership lists of these organizations, but then have trouble finding members in rural areas since membership is low in these locations. (Membership is much higher and populated areas.) This, in turn, causes them to look to national service providers to get all areas serviced. He did report that Mr. Saxton actually does preach to hire local. This entire description came after I suggested that while they are meeting with these chains, which they do, that they do represent us in a hire-local campaign.

So a good education for all so far, and I'm sure we are not finished. I for one, will join these organizations, because if you're not in it…you really don't have a say. And as mentioned many times before, they are actually doing good. This is as I heard it. I wanted to post, and let you all know how it all went. Thanks and keep the comments coming.


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## Herm Witte

Thanks for the report and open mind.


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## Luther

Mark Oomkes said:


> .........the only thing that happened was a couple years later he was removed..........Shortly after, ASCA was born with his backing.
> 
> Yeah, call me cynical.


I have to tell you brother, this is fake news.

ASCA was not born with JAA's backing. He was certainly there that night in Cleveland 2010 when the ASCA was "born" if you will. So were numerous contractors throughout the US and Canada. He got involved just like many others got involved because more needed to be done.

Like it or not (and I know you don't like it lol) he brings a TON to the table. More than anyone else you can name. Nobody has more real world experience, particularly in the area of legalities that him. No doubt he has been the leading industry consultant and industry expert for many many years. His courtroom experience as an expert witness is unmatched. He didn't start the organization, and he doesn't run it either. Kevin Gilbride does. He contributes to the organization it just like many others do.

Born with his backing? Fake news.


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## Luther

MajorDave said:


> Spoke with the SIMA CEO, Martin Tirado, today ..... He said we should consider the national service providers almost equivalent to property management companies. Deals can be made with them, but as we all know that is quite difficult.


Having a hard time with this. NSP's have no skin in the game. Especially when they are located out of state. Some of them are extremely difficult to work with. They make their money off the back of the local contractor that's actually doing the work.

Hiring local contractors to perform work on their clients property is not a source of revenue for property management companies. It's an expense for them.


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## BossPlow2010

Luther said:


> Having a hard time with this. NSP's have no skin in the game. Especially when they are located out of state. Some of them are extremely difficult to work with. They make their money off the back of the local contractor that's actually doing the work.
> 
> Hiring local contractors to perform work on their clients property is not a source of revenue for property management companies. It's an expense for them.


Not all NSP's rely solely on contractors.
E.g. Davey
And for the record, there are plenty of regional/ state/ local companies that are a pain to deal with. Just like they're some contractors that are a ***** to work with
Some
NSP's are great to work with, I worked for one out of Deluth and now work for one out of Honolulu, they sign my contract and pay the rate I bid at and pay on time.


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## Luther

I didn't say all. I try not to use the words all, never, always, etc. And yes it's true some of them are good to work with. I have a good working relationship with a couple of them myself.


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## Luther

I'm sure it's just a term thing. An NSP to me is a company that does not own equipment, nor do they self perform work. They're nothing more than getting in the middle of things.


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## ASCAEXEC

Defcon 5 said:


> My hope is Kevin from the ASCA will come on here and shed some light on this and the accredition that snow contractors can pursue...He is a Busy man..But all I ask if he does...Hear him out...There are a few on here that just like to stir the pot...


Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this discussion. I will try and be as brief as possible.

I spent a year doing research prior to launching the ASCA. The research was initiated from a conference we held as Snow Magazine and top contractors voicing their concerns on issues facing the industry. Insurance was the main concern voiced. In that year of research, of the many issues (problems) facing the industry, none of them were the actual problem. They were all symptoms of bigger problems facing the industry. To solve any problem, you can put a band-aid on it, or try to fix the root of the problem. We choose to address the root of the problem.

ASCA Developed the first set of written Industry Standards, which were accredited by the American National Standards Institute in January 2014. Those following these Standards are better able to protect themselves in the event of a claim against their company. I can get into much more on this, but in the end, these were developed to protect snow and ice management companies.

We then developed ASCA-C. This is our education based individual certification. This certification was developed to prove to your customers, the insurance carriers, and others outside of our industry that you have been educated on the Industry Standards and risk management in general. This includes plaintiff's attorneys.

We then worked with ANSI to implement ISO9001 certification for our industry, as well as developed SN9001. This is the same ISO 9001 you see from manufacturing companies. This proves that you have the processes and procedures in place to deliver service quality. SN9001 proves that you have implemented the Industry Standards into your business.

These are the first three pillars that founded ASCA. They show the outside world that you are professional. Currently 35% of slip and fall claims are dismissed in this industry. However, for ISO9001/SN9001 and ASCA-C certified companies. 70% of these claims are outright dismissed.

The fourth pillar is legislative change. Without the first three pillars, no one would take us seriously. Now that we have our house in order, so to speak, legislatures are listening.

At the state level we have model legislation (that was already signed into law in Illinois) that addresses unfair liability transfer. The law addresses hold-harmless agreements that pass on the property owners liability to the contractor. When the property owner has no liability, there is no reason to take proper care of the property. However, if they retain their liability, then they will need to hire a responsible contractor to do the work.

We are also working at the federal level on a Bill to reduce frivolous lawsuits, but that is for another conversation.

My apologies for the long post.

Kevin Gilbride
Executive Director
ASCA


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## John_DeereGreen

Kevin, since you mentioned it. How is progress coming along on the legislation for Ohio?


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## ASCAEXEC

John_DeereGreen said:


> Kevin, since you mentioned it. How is progress coming along on the legislation for Ohio?


We are getting close. Our Bill was given an "official" draft in the Ohio legislature just last week. We believe we have a sponsor, and once they review the draft we will know for sure.


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## MajorDave

This is why I started this...this is how we become professionals...through education. Kevin, I will be calling you as soon as I can and joining as well.


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## ktfbgb

ASCAEXEC said:


> Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this discussion. I will try and be as brief as possible.
> 
> I spent a year doing research prior to launching the ASCA. The research was initiated from a conference we held as Snow Magazine and top contractors voicing their concerns on issues facing the industry. Insurance was the main concern voiced. In that year of research, of the many issues (problems) facing the industry, none of them were the actual problem. They were all symptoms of bigger problems facing the industry. To solve any problem, you can put a band-aid on it, or try to fix the root of the problem. We choose to address the root of the problem.
> 
> ASCA Developed the first set of written Industry Standards, which were accredited by the American National Standards Institute in January 2014. Those following these Standards are better able to protect themselves in the event of a claim against their company. I can get into much more on this, but in the end, these were developed to protect snow and ice management companies.
> 
> We then developed ASCA-C. This is our education based individual certification. This certification was developed to prove to your customers, the insurance carriers, and others outside of our industry that you have been educated on the Industry Standards and risk management in general. This includes plaintiff's attorneys.
> 
> We then worked with ANSI to implement ISO9001 certification for our industry, as well as developed SN9001. This is the same ISO 9001 you see from manufacturing companies. This proves that you have the processes and procedures in place to deliver service quality. SN9001 proves that you have implemented the Industry Standards into your business.
> 
> These are the first three pillars that founded ASCA. They show the outside world that you are professional. Currently 35% of slip and fall claims are dismissed in this industry. However, for ISO9001/SN9001 and ASCA-C certified companies. 70% of these claims are outright dismissed.
> 
> The fourth pillar is legislative change. Without the first three pillars, no one would take us seriously. Now that we have our house in order, so to speak, legislatures are listening.
> 
> At the state level we have model legislation (that was already signed into law in Illinois) that addresses unfair liability transfer. The law addresses hold-harmless agreements that pass on the property owners liability to the contractor. When the property owner has no liability, there is no reason to take proper care of the property. However, if they retain their liability, then they will need to hire a responsible contractor to do the work.
> 
> We are also working at the federal level on a Bill to reduce frivolous lawsuits, but that is for another conversation.
> 
> My apologies for the long post.
> 
> Kevin Gilbride
> Executive Director
> ASCA


Thank you for the information Kevin.


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## MajorDave

Had an hour talk today with Phill Sexton of SIMA...Director of Outreach, and I am also happy to report that it was very enlightening as well. 

I wish I was able to take notes, but I was in my 7.3 sitting in...of all places...a Home Depot parking lot!!!

We centered the discussion around NSPs as we have been talking about. Phill has been a small contractor, as well as, part of an NSP and now does "snow consulting" with a more acedemia approach. Currently he is working on "going green" with salt in NH and consulting with large chains. 

Very interesting to hear him say that big chain listen to consultants more than contractors. He has been educating them that when they hire a NSP, they need to know they are hiring a broker rather than a contractor. A refreshing example he gave was that he showed them if they were building a new store, they would know generally what is the cost should be. If it was 40% less, they would know it would not get done. He then introduces them to the concept of: Why are you doing snow differently and expecting better results.

The problem comes down to the industry has such a low-financial entry point that anyone can get in. (We have discussed this) It simply requires us not to acccept lowball contracts. Easier said than done. 

I go back to our local-union discussion. Again, "union" is a strong word. Somehow, we need to let the locals know not to accept low contract...how? That's a long road.

I then discussed what if there were laws, regulations, DMV rules regulating who has a plow to control the low-entry point. Thats also a long road - and imaging the lobbying from the snowplow companies. 

All-in-all...more learning and it was all positive.


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## Mark Oomkes

Luther said:


> I have to tell you brother, this is fake news.
> 
> ASCA was not born with JAA's backing. He was certainly there that night in Cleveland 2010 when the ASCA was "born" if you will. So were numerous contractors throughout the US and Canada. He got involved just like many others got involved because more needed to be done.
> 
> Like it or not (and I know you don't like it lol) he brings a TON to the table. More than anyone else you can name. Nobody has more real world experience, particularly in the area of legalities that him. No doubt he has been the leading industry consultant and industry expert for many many years. His courtroom experience as an expert witness is unmatched. He didn't start the organization, and he doesn't run it either. Kevin Gilbride does. He contributes to the organization it just like many others do.
> 
> Born with his backing? Fake news.


I sit corrected.


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## Luther

Dang...wish I could put that as a ringtone


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> I sit corrected.


Think this is a First....


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## ktfbgb

Mark Oomkes said:


> I sit corrected.


I have a new addition to my signature line.


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## Mark Oomkes

ktfbgb said:


> I have a new addition to my signature line.


Wattever


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## Freshwater

Mark Oomkes said:


> I sit corrected.


Something tells me this is not the first time he's corrected you. Though memories do get foggy on things 7yrs ago.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

in for the info, ill keep it that brief


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