# Exodus to freedom



## DaveOhio (Jul 23, 2000)

Snow management group, at its height, grossed 1.128 billion and took on the Winter Olympics in Utah. John Allin posted freely on this site and was a moderator, if I remember correctly. As the Uncrowned King of snow removal, he could do no wrong. Others sucked up to him and “laughed” at his every grunt like that imbecile on Howard Stern. Where art thou, Dino?

Surrounded by sycophants and charlatans, folks were as jealous then as they are now. Keep snipping at him you all, he’s in his ’06 Escalade with prototype Western Vee. And yeah, it’s a company truck. His critics? Stuck in 1990s F250s (w/o timbrens).

Sianara and AMF.

I’m switching to ************.com like John did.


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Let the people be heard*

I also see where threads have been removed. Let the truth be known. If this site will not allow the truth to be posted it is time to leave.

Dave


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

To DaveOhio - 

Pls check those numbers. You are WAY off base in your estimates. I bet there is no Escalade involved.

Thanks,


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## Tony Bonventre (Feb 11, 2004)

*The Plow*

A western Vee proto, with gold plating, silver trim. It has diamonds running on top of the deflector shield, The Markers are made of solid brass, with a titanium cutting edge, His name is engraved on each bolt. the controller is voice activated. (ex. Plow vee, Angle left, up, down,........) The chain too is gold plated tri colored white, yellow and silver. It is mounted on the truck with a high powered electric magnet he can connect and disconnect it with the touch of a button. He doesn't even have to get out of the truck. Oh yea I forgot to mention that it is heated & there are little wipers on the plow lights.

LOL


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## PAPLOWER (Jan 22, 2005)

*what?*

What's going on here and who is allin guy?
CAN'T WE JUST GET A LONG?????


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## Tony Bonventre (Feb 11, 2004)

*I forgot*

I am not posting anymore,

By the way about the plow I was kidding.


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## QCPride (Feb 16, 2005)

You may be kidding but that was funny as H***l!!!


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Tonys Response*

There are 3 things sad about this response Tony:

1. A company made profit at the expense of others.
2. You think you are exempt from being treated the same way others in your organization were treated. I believe if things get tight no one is secure in there position.
3. I can believe the Caddy remarks.

The teachings of area management are failing in our area. Some companies won't survive this season as this area management theory is flawed. The area management company make money, the customer has his lot clean but the contractor that does not get his full monies will be the casualty.

Dave


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## Robhollar (Dec 27, 2003)

DaveOhio, your comments are funny in nature they have no Merritt to any discussion here. Its all been said before and anyone involved knows what the truth is. Enough already....Rob

Ps no Im not defending JAA its just all been said before and theres no point going on with this.


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## DaveOhio (Jul 23, 2000)

John Allin In Michigan 
I remeber back at the begining of the month that it was requisted if anyone knows where John Allin of Symbiot is making an appearance to let you guys know. Well he will be at the Novi Expo Center in Michigan. He will be there on March 2 giving two presentations. First from 9:30 a.m. – 11:00 a.m. as the "Keynote speaker" and again 11:00 a.m. – 12:00 p.m on "Dealing with Success" It's $15 for non members of MGIA to get in the door. The expo is on novi rd. just south of I-96. 

Tony what's this all about? The Symbiot Lear is heading for Michigan. 

He's out trolling for subs!!


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## Mark F (Dec 16, 2004)

Anybody got pictures of that v-blade setup. I wanna buy one for my wife.
It would make a great birthday present, don't ya think. Dimonds! Girls best freind.


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## IndySnowPlow (Dec 30, 2004)

Ever wonder why SMG / J. Allin have no business in Indiana ?

Yep, theres more than -1- King of the snow business.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Kathleen, you are correct, those numbers aren't anywheres close to accurate.

Question for you seeing the other thread was deleted (funny how that keeps happening). You stated I shouldn't judge until I've heard both sides of the story, I agree. Have you heard both sides of the story? What I mean is the story from the contractors who have been ripped off? 

I would love to hear SMG's side, but all I have seen is threats or warnings and deleted threads. I have not seen one honest, forthcoming reply from anyone employed by SMG? I'll agree with most of the guys who have said that everybody falls on hard times, etc, but be honest about it! Just tell the people you owe money that you are having a hard time and that you will get ALL your money.

Is that too much to ask?


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

*How Long?*

How long before this thread disappears............


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## scuba875 (Dec 22, 2004)

By deleting these posts it is gives a ton of credibility to the people claiming to be ripped off. I take it this site or someone who is a mod is part of the company in question. If that's the case and they have not done what has been alleged why not welcome an open discussion from both sides? By deleting the posts it makes people on the outside (like me) of this controversy think hey maybe its true since its being censored. 

I have asked some questions on a couple of post and after each post was deleted. I was on the fence regarding this topic but now I don't know. I tend to think the guys deleting the posts don't want the truth to get out or at least thats the way it looks.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SatZ28 said:


> How long before this thread disappears............


I'll put 5 bucks on tomorrow by noon. lol

Anybody else want to put money on it?


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

Mark Oomkes and scuba875 - 

I have heard both sides. I doubt that anyone involved with this site is an employee of SMG. I am sure the mod's don't like any kind of bashing on the site. One day you will hear both sides and you will realize that the "bashers" have not been completely honest. SMG has never hidden anything but people will always "spin" the story. This forum should be the place to have a civilized discussion but we all know that this will not happen, nor is right to have this discussion at a seminar. I am not choosing sides but again you have to know both sides of the story. 
There can be a civilized discussion.

Thank you,


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I will take your word for it. I am more than willing to hear the other side, but once again, all there has been is silence from JAA and threats from current SMG employees and threads that have been removed by request from current SMG employees. I have yet to see one 'civilized' post regarding this situation from the 'other' side. I believe I have read every one of John Bank's posts and none of them have been 'uncivilized'. He has just been giving his side of the story and warning other potential subs of the possibility of problems with SMG. If I am wrong, please show me and I will admit it. 

I would still like to know if there is any untruth in his statements, why there have not been lawsuits filed for slander? Threats maybe, but no actual suits?

I am also curious as to why there are so many contractor's that have had the same problem with SMG, i.e. lack of full payment? It is not just John B, he is probably the most vocal, though. If he screwed up on a contract, do you think he would be this vocal about not receiving payment due to his own fault? I guess it's possible, but John B strikes me as an intelligent person that would not open himself up to that. 

Which brings up the question, why did SMG sell out to Symbiot? If every thing was going fine and there were no major problems, why sell out? And then if the contractors are at fault, why were they offered even 75% of the work that was performed? If I screwed up that bad, I wouldn't ask for payment for any of the work.

Oh well, now you can see where I am coming from. At this point I am going to have come down on the side of those who I know personally, of which John Banks is not one of them, but I know several of the others and trust their word. 

BTW, I have actually met JAA, but I'm sure he doesn't remember me.

I'm probably going to continue watching, but not respond anymore unless there is something civilized that comes out of the 'other' side because this is going nowhere.


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## scuba875 (Dec 22, 2004)

Kathleen I agree that there is always two sides to every story and usually the truth lies some where in the middle leaning to one persons side or the other. My point is that by censoring the discussion it makes the claims appear to be very valid. It doesn't help that people like Tony come on and bash or take cheap shots at anyone who claims to have had a problem. It doesn't help the companies position and as a manager he represents the company. If that is how the management acts then what does that say for the company in general. From an outsiders view it just doesn't add up.


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

Mark Oomkes and scuba 875 -

Thank you for keeping this civilized. I can tell you that the people who have been told both sides do have a better understanding of the situation. Please keep in mind that I am not siding with either party. I cannot vouch for how either party has acted in this matter but please remember that tempers come into play here and that always hurts any situation. This is the first time I have viewed a somewhat "civil" discussion on this matter and I hope that other people take notice. The true reasons for what happened will come to lite and you will see what truly took place.

You should hear the other side.

Thanks you,


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## allabout (Dec 2, 2000)

When will the true reason come to light? It been close to 1 yr.


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

*Two Sides*

I can't believe the 2 sides of the story is too much different from the below.

Side 1

SMG - Can''t pay my subcontractors because:
1) I spent the money on things I shouldn't have or should have waited.
2) My customers didn't pay
3) I bid the jobs low, didn't make money (or very little)
4) I made money, but my management team overhead ate up all the profits
5) I didn't have have enough cash on hand to pay the subcontractors, and I could not get a line of credit from the banks to cover my debts.
6) One or all of the above.

Side 2
Contractors - I'm waiting to get paid from a year ago:
1) I did the work in a timely manner, crossed the "T's" and dotted the "I's".
2) Waited for my money, got stonewalled when looking for money
3) Paid my employees/bills out of my pocket/line of credit/cash on hand
4) SMG/Symbiot - We will pay you 75% of what we owe. Win Win Win!


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

IndySnowPlow & SatZ28 -

INdy - You should be aware there is alot of biz in Indiana that SMG is handling.

SatZ28 - were you a contractor last season? Not to be smart about this but I didn't think so.

Thank you,


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

OK, still civilized, so here goes: who is talking about just the contractors from last year? What about the contractors from the last 3-5 years that were stiffed, given the run around on payment?

Kathleen, if you 'know' both sides, why don't you enlighten us instead of dancing around the issue? What difference does it make if he was a contractor or not? This is what happened and what most believe because this is the *only* story we have heard. And we have heard it from more than one contractor, so I guess that means that several contractors failed to perform according to specs and then all were given the exact same payment, even though they screwed up? And if they screwed up they only deserve partial payment, but explain how they all screwed up only 25% of the work?

You won't answer the question, all you say is you don't know both sides, you need to hear the other side. Well????????????? Somebody give us the other side of the story already. It isn't like we aren't all waiting to hear it.


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

Kathleen, 

Please tell us how the 2 sides of the story above don't make sense. 

Yes I was a sub-contractor last year, but for a large Chicago area snow/ice control company. Yes, I got paid 3 weeks after each event. 100% by the way.

While I'm not a accountant or the like, I work or have worked for companies that have/had cash flow problems. Cash flow problems are usually caused by a number of reason. Mainly caused by more cash going out than cash coming in.

Just a couple of years ago, I worked for a company that the bank came in, sold the assets that paid off what was owed the bank, and left 20 some employees out of work. We also did not get our earned vacation pay. So I can understand the frustration on the contractors who did not get paid on time, and now have to settle for 75%.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Kathleen said:


> Mark Oomkes and scuba875 -
> 
> I have heard both sides. One day you will hear both sides and you will realize that the "bashers" have not been completely honest.
> There can be a civilized discussion.
> ...


Like everyone keeps asking, if you have heard both sides, please enlighten us. I guess the bashers comment was directed at me, but all I have to say is that I have been completely honest. No spin from me, just the facts as my story has developed. I am all for this being civilized, but when I get threatened by SMG employees, many of them, they're the ones throwing civility away.

Kathleen, may I ask how you are involved? Are/were you a sub? Employee of company in question? Close relative.


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## allabout (Dec 2, 2000)

Kathleen, Can we all please hear the other side of the story.


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'll put 5 bucks on tomorrow by noon. lol
> 
> Anybody else want to put money on it?


Mark, you owe me $5.00. Its 12:29 CST and the thread is still here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Dang. Ok where do I send it?   

I have a better idea. I'm having some cash flow problems, can I send you 25% now, 25% in 6 months and the last 25% in a year? That would be a win/win right? Wait a minute, that doesn't add up to 100%, oh well, your loss. Win/win/screwed, that's close enough isn't it?


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

Sure, no problem as I know this is a win/win deal for me.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Ms. Ryan: Can you tell me what I have not been honest about?


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## scuba875 (Dec 22, 2004)

That’s the problem we don't get the other side. In my mind I have decided who is telling the truth just by people’s actions. People who are defending the truth don't find the need to do so by attacking people’s credibility or by bashing them in public they do it with the facts. I have seen the contractors state fact after fact but on the other side its been nothing but insults.

I have been put in the position of having to go after money owed (not with snow removal but with my repair business) and it is a miserable experience. The courts give you little recourse and the only one who wins is the lawyers. I hope you guys get paid what you are owed but if my experience chasing money is the norm I wouldn't get your hopes up.


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## DaveOhio (Jul 23, 2000)

Where do these SMG shills keep appearing from? Hey Banks, what are some of the names John posted with after his disappearance? Were they all men's names?

You want to hear the other side? Head to the seminar in Michigan and plop down your money to hear The Man speak. Don't be overly persistent with the questioning, though. DO NOT approach JAA in the corridors. It's tough to work a touchpad after you've been taized.

The SS men around him make Farrahkan's detail look like pansies . Symbiot Security will not tolerate any harassment, even for autographs, of their number one recruiter. There's a new crop of subs out there and the word must go forth!

Sign up today. Pay your fees for network membership. We might let you plow some of your old accounts for us next year.

David

_In memory of HST 1937-2005_


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*let the truth be known*

I am very pleased there is a form to let legit snow removal contractors know of the evil that is out in the snow removal industry. The Internet is a wonderful place to allow the evil doers to be exposed. I have heard of JA area management ideas. I find fault with them. When a sub contractor is not paid as agreed it causes problems in the industry. To drive the costs of snow plowing down at someone else's expense I find wrong.

As I type this there are people paying sub contractors less than it costs to operate a snow plow truck. A good wage for good work is still an American way of life. The whole way area management is structured is to protect the large company and if there is any burp in the system the one that can least afford it looses!

I find that people who support this type of actions are just as guilty as the evil doers. There will be shills as long as the money keeps going to the shills. When the shill is no longer needed he or she will be discarded and they will join the list of victims.

Our industry only needs honest hard working people who treat everyone with respect and live up to agreements.

Dave


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*N Il S Wi*

Although I am not, have not been, and from the sounds of one side of the story will never work for SMC (I thought they did infomercials).  
Anyway, I would be very interested in hearing the other side of the story and would be willing to pass it on to others here. I noticed Kathleen is from exactly my area, or so it is listed. I would be willing to meet with you personally Kathleen and you could clear things up with a lot of people. If you are not interested in sharing the story, then I am (as well as others) to believe that there is only ONE side to the story. What SMG did and what the contractors are saying.

Here is a chance to at least clear some of it up.

Jeff
Southern Wisconsin Northern Illinois area!


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## LI landscaping (Dec 4, 2002)

Have any subs that have not gotten paid billed the property owners for their expenses? I am frequently asked by homeowners for paid receipts from all suppliers and subs to ensure the bills have been paid releasing joe homeowner from liabilty of payment.


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

Peopleeater - 

I think that is a good idea. You can PM me.

Thank you,


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## thundercat99 (Dec 15, 2003)

*whats the deal with pm*

Ive been contacted this year from smg for next season i really would like to know whats going on please keep your answers in the public aspect of this forum thank you


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*Meeting*

I tried to PM you, Kathleen, but your PM's are either off, or ???

Jeff
[email protected]

You can contact me through that email address.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

For some reason (stupid if you ask me) you cannot e-mail or PM a new member until they have 25 or 50 posts.

Kathleen, why the secrecy? Should we all PM you to find out the 'other' side?


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## allabout (Dec 2, 2000)

WOW: a lot posts from northern ILL. on this thread. :waving:


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> For some reason (stupid if you ask me) you cannot e-mail or PM a new member until they have 25 or 50 posts.
> 
> Kathleen, why the secrecy? Should we all PM you to find out the 'other' side?


I wanted to set up a meeting and would inform you all of what I find out, if anything. I am totally neutral to this subject (except I don't like seeing people getting taken advantage of). It also would help me in case SMG ever contacted me as I will be starting on my own next year. Getting sick of subbing and no snow, so I figured I would get my own and that way when we don't get snow, I can say I have my own accounts. LOL

Jeff


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Hey Jeff, Any word yet?


Ms. Ryan, do you care to answer my question?


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*No Answer*



plowed said:


> Hey Jeff, Any word yet?
> 
> Ms. Ryan, do you care to answer my question?


No Word at all. It is kinda what I thought would happen. Can't PM her cause she doesn't have enough posts. I knew there was no other side to the story. The offer is still there though if she still wants to tell the story. She could always tell the story here though.

Jeff


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*no response*

I figured the same. How can you justify not living up to your agreement? We are lucky that we have this Internet to spread around the word of this type of problem in the snow removal industry.

Just spread the word so others don't fall into this trap. Ms Ryan, if that is who she is should be able to understand normal thinking, to bad she cant. If you state you are going to respond do so. If she was going to respond she could have by now.

Dave


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## scuba875 (Dec 22, 2004)

Peopleeater said:


> No Word at all. It is kinda what I thought would happen. Can't PM her cause she doesn't have enough posts. I knew there was no other side to the story. The offer is still there though if she still wants to tell the story. She could always tell the story here though.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff thats what gets me. Why claim to know both sides and not share it here? Why the secrecy if you know just say it how it is. It just shows in my mind what the truth is. I am glade you guys shared the info with the rest of us. I wish you didn't have to find out the way you did but you may have saved a lot of people from having the same problem.

Thanks


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

Peopleeater - 

I will e-mail you in the next few days to set up a time to discuss this with you.

I have a very busy schedule due to the snow and landscape season overlap. I have greater things to do than to sit here and answer everyones concerns as soon as they post. It seems that we need snow so that some people can occupy their time. As you can see by some of the responses this is not the place to tell all. I have already discussed this matter with a few and they understand.

Sorry if some of this seems sarcastic - it's not meant to be.

Thank you,


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## Triton Snow Systems (Aug 6, 2004)

yeah we need some snow !!! I need another couple of looks at those Harleys again.


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

Triton - 

We think that you need one of those Harley's!!!!

David has already started on bids for us for next year. He is also looking for other qualified subs.

Thanks,


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## Triton Snow Systems (Aug 6, 2004)

*subs*

Kathleen, Have Dave contact for some other dependable subs.


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## Foz (Mar 27, 2001)

My question to all of the contractors that are owed money is.....Why did you let SMG get so far behind in paying? We have done plowing for realty companys, property managers, etc. that others have warned us to stay away from and when they get past 30 days, we just simply stop service....no way they can tell their customers the lots won't be plowed........be forceful in getting your $$. We have yet to be strung out by these people. No we have not worked for SMG.

Failure to collect money is a big problem in the plowiing & lawn industry. Many times it is the lack of collection efforts. A customer is of no use to you if they do not pay on time no matter what the contract size.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Kathleen said:


> I have already discussed this matter with a few and they understand.
> 
> /
> 
> ...


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## Triton Snow Systems (Aug 6, 2004)

Kathleen, Do you think I'll ever get to see those Harleys again??


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Looking at Harleys*

If you work for companies that pay as agreed you will not have to go to Harley dealer and dream. You can live that dream. Plan your work and work your plan.

To prove that my teachings work please see pic of harley below. I got all of Harley... not 75% 2 yrs later.

Dave


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## Triton Snow Systems (Aug 6, 2004)

Triton Snow Systems said:


> Kathleen, Do you think I'll ever get to see those Harleys again??


Hello !!! Does my post say anything about working for people who don't pay.

" But thanks for the encouraging words "


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Triton*

This post is for people who support people NOT paying the subcontractors. I see the practices of area management companies as no good for the snow plowing industry in the long run. To lower the price of snow removal to below the actual cost to do such work does not benefit anyone. When the area management company does this, the only way to realize a profit is to NOT pay the sub contractor. The area management company makes its money at the sub contractors expense.

I refuse to become a thief to make money at snow removal.

EX. A post office job here paid 18K last yr to have its snow plowed and salted. Area management company came in and bid 40% less. Then hired the old contractor back at 50% less than he made last yr for same job. When I crunched the numbers he lost money plowing and salting for this area management company.

If all these area management companies bid all the work let them buy the trucks and operate them. If they loose money let them go bankrupt.

You can have any motorcycle you want when you work for people who pay. Just say NO to area managment.

Dave


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

SkykingHD - 

Maybe you should know what you are responding to before you reply with comments like that. You should also know that not all management companies operate the same way.
There are good management companies around - just ask some people here.

Thank you,


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Response*

I know who I am responding to. My posts are very clear. Area management companies, 2 or more corporations deep, bid lower than the cost of the actual job and to make a profit they don't pay the sub contractor. I can not make it any clearer than that.

We have waited to hear the "other side" how ever the other side has excuses after excuses why they cant respond.

Sorry if you find fault with honest hard labor. I do want all to know the fruits of good honest labor.

Dave


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

I'm with SkykingHD...Nice ride btw. Here's the fruit's of my labor, my 2002 Ducati 998 Mono. This is an old pic, as the entire front end is all carbon fiber now.

Last year one of my guys, who has a 2002 Sportster, showed up on a new 2004 Harley - I forget which model. How did he do it, a nice bonus check. Did he trade in his 2002? Nope, it was paid for and he gave the 2002 model to his wife, who also loves to ride.

This year, another employee may be so lucky...

PAY UP OR SHUT UP!


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## Triton Snow Systems (Aug 6, 2004)

Kathleen said:


> SkykingHD -
> 
> Maybe you should know what you are responding to before you reply with comments like that. You should also know that not all management companies operate the same way.
> There are good management companies around - just ask some people here.
> ...


This is true, I plow for several management companies in N. Il. and S. Wis. and have always been paid promptly. After all, if management companies want to promote their business they have to take care of their subs or there is no advancement in this industry. So for SMG to have grown to such a large company they must have done the right things.


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

SkykingHD said:


> I know who I am responding to. My posts are very clear. Area management companies, 2 or more corporations deep, bid lower than the cost of the actual job and to make a profit they don't pay the sub contractor. I can not make it any clearer than that.
> 
> We have waited to hear the "other side" how ever the other side has excuses after excuses why they cant respond.
> 
> ...


SkykingHD - 
Look closer at the names of the companies - you do not know who you are responding to. As far as hearing the other side I stated in an earlier post that I would explain to a member here. I also stated that with my work load and the seasons overlapping I cannot sit here and respond to posts as they are written. Sorry to dissapoint but I have better things to do with my time.

Thank you,


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Triton Snow Systems said:


> After all, if management companies want to promote their business they have to take care of their subs or there is no advancement in this industry. So for SMG to have grown to such a large company they must have done the right things.


Are you out of your mind? You guys just don't get it do you?! Growing so large was one of the things that killed them. They obviously could not meet the capital requirements of such growth, henceforth the screwing of us subs. Henceforth the long list of banks and contractors that are now lining up in court filing their suits against John Allin, Allin Companies, SMG, etc. Don't be fooled here folks. While John Allin was telling his own employees that he "has banks lined up waiting to give me money", it's quite the contrary with the banks who are suing him. It's apparent now that John Allin knew what was coming as he played the coporate changing game, trying to re-incorporate the various companies, it's all in the government record.

And the SMG spin control tries to keep the fire burning. You guys are unbelievable.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

There is 1 thing to remember , these guys that start companies and go after all this snow work RELY on subs. Yes they will come into your area of business and bid lower . There is 1 simple way to put a quick stop to them , PARK YOUR TRUCK , dont work for them . The temptation will be there , if you have no work , but if they cant find subs , they will lose the job , they will lose their credibility . Then the jobs will be back open to the local contractors. I have been approached in the past by another "snow" company not mentioned here . I told them my rates are the same whether its my job or theirs , an hour is an hour , and a ton spread is a ton . The guy wanted to know how he was to make money if i charged him my regular price , " well you should have bid higher then " This " major snow company " lasted 2 years . Mainly because they bit off more than they could chew AND the word got out not to work for them . Word travled fast and they couldnt find subs. These are SALES ORGINIZATIONS playing on the customer who wants cheap and the newer contractor who wants money , play both ends against the middle and take the icing off the top. 

Its simple , ONLY SUB TO A LOCAL CONTRACTOR THAT IS ESTABLISHED IN THE AREA , you know where he lives and he pays , keep the money in your community .


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Kathleen said:


> SkykingHD -
> Look closer at the names of the companies - you do not know who you are responding to. As far as hearing the other side I stated in an earlier post that I would explain to a member here. I also stated that with my work load and the seasons overlapping I cannot sit here and respond to posts as they are written. Sorry to dissapoint but I have better things to do with my time.
> 
> Thank you,


What it sounds like is more BS. I don't know about overlapping seasons in February/March. What type of landscaping projects are you doing now?

Excuses, that's all they are. Modelled after the SMG playbook.

The member here has not heard from you. You won't answer my direct question to you.

Stop trying to spew your propaganda. If you have something to say about the other side, say it. Otherwise, leave it alone.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Mdirrigation said:


> There is 1 thing to remember , these guys that start companies and go after all this snow work RELY on subs. Yes they will come into your area of business and bid lower . There is 1 simple way to put a quick stop to them , PARK YOUR TRUCK , dont work for them . The temptation will be there , if you have no work , but if they cant find subs , they will lose the job , they will lose their credibility . Then the jobs will be back open to the local contractors. I have been approached in the past by another "snow" company not mentioned here . I told them my rates are the same whether its my job or theirs , an hour is an hour , and a ton spread is a ton . The guy wanted to know how he was to make money if i charged him my regular price , " well you should have bid higher then " This " major snow company " lasted 2 years . Mainly because they bit off more than they could chew AND the word got out not to work for them . Word travled fast and they couldnt find subs. These are SALES ORGINIZATIONS playing on the customer who wants cheap and the newer contractor who wants money , play both ends against the middle and take the icing off the top.
> 
> Its simple , ONLY SUB TO A LOCAL CONTRACTOR THAT IS ESTABLISHED IN THE AREA , you know where he lives and he pays , keep the money in your community .


This is the beginning of the problems for SMG/Symbiot. After all of what has happened, they are having an increasingly difficult time finding subs who will work for them. Serves them right.


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Kathleen said:


> I also stated that with my work load and the seasons overlapping I cannot sit here and respond to posts as they are written. Sorry to dissapoint but I have better things to do with my time.
> 
> Thank you,


Now I am fired up. Dont get me wrong, I always like/need to hear both sides of the story. Kathleen, we are all busy. But if these posts save just one contractor from making a wrong decision, which ultimately saves his business, to me that's worth it. This is an educational process. I want to educate as many as I can what to look out for, and to tell my experience and to hear of the experiences of others. Don't BS us any more.


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## DaveOhio (Jul 23, 2000)

Kathleen said:


> SkykingHD -
> 
> You should also know that not all management companies operate the same way.
> 
> ...


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## scuba875 (Dec 22, 2004)

John to take it one step further if she can since making that post about not having time, find time to respond to posts about motorcycles why not the question at hand?

Lets be honest here how much time are we talking about to answer an email or post in the first place. In the time it took to explain that she didn't have time not just once but twice she could have put all the cards on the table. 

John I understand your frustration and Kathleen I think you have lost any credibility that you may have had when you first posted. If you say you are going to do something you do it period. That holds true in business or in life in general. I have no time or patience for people who are not true to their word.


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## Kathleen (Feb 18, 2005)

mr banks - 
Look back at your replies - it seems that all you do is complain. That is the very reason that this will be the only response that you get from me. Who are you to question what I am doing in my overlapping seasons. There are quotes to give, plans to draw, subs to hire and the winter to wrap up. A lot of people here seem to have more time to spend complaining - it makes me wonder if they have anything to do except wait for the next storm. In answer to one of your questions I am not a disciple or employee or relative of SMG. I am a contractor who never has had a problem with them. Isn't that strange to hear that from someone. As for the rest of those who claim to know how I operate or the size of our company, guess what - you don't know anything about those issues. There are many people on this site that know the story of what happened with SMG and a few others who worked for my company. There are people here who dealt with SMG last year and you don't see them complaining. Dont any of you dare infer that a large company doesn't pay and that they cut prices to get work. I don't do any of that and we will always be sucessful. We have subs that would be more than happy to say that too.

I would like to get all of you seated in a room. I would ask all of you to stand up. I would ask you to sit if you have ever billed for more salt than you spread, have any of you ever billed a customer or contractor for more time than you actually spent plowing, how many of you have ever laughed at what you charge people, how many of you have denied damaging property that you actually damaged and tried to get out of fixing and last but not least how many of you have cheated a sub out of money? I doubt that many would be left standing. Those are the people that should hear the truth behind the story that you are spewing. You act as if you tell the truth and that everyone should listen to you. There are people that work for us that know the story and they see your faults in what you say. I am not claiming that there was no fault on the part of SMG. There was. You were all offered several choices of recourse and you chose. Be honorable and live with that choice. Now that you made that choice you have no right to continue your complaining. Nobody twisted anyone's arm to choose. 

Sometimes the gossip here is past the point of intolerable. We will always operate in a professional manner and people will contine to want to work for us if for no other reason than we are fair to our subs and employees and we always deliver what we promise. If all of that flies in the face of what you think of large companies then I feel sorry for you.

I know that I answered many questions from many people here but until I visit with the member from N Il that is all I have to say. mr banks - pls remember - this is the only time I will respond to you.



Thank you,


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*Meeting?*



Kathleen said:


> SkykingHD -
> Look closer at the names of the companies - you do not know who you are responding to. As far as hearing the other side I stated in an earlier post that I would explain to a member here. I also stated that with my work load and the seasons overlapping I cannot sit here and respond to posts as they are written. Sorry to dissapoint but I have better things to do with my time.
> 
> Thank you,


Kathleen,

I am still waiting to hear from you, it's been a week, and you said you would email me in a few days. I know, we haven't had anything close to snow in a week, and that was only a 1" dusting a week ago. Before that we haven't had anything for a month or more (actually a couple salting events, but no plows). They are saying spring is still a few weeks away for us. Isn't looking like any snow in the near future either and it is supposed to stay cold, so the grass isn't growing yet. We haven't had anything to speak of since the end of January! The only reason we went out last week was that we were given the OK from the man in charge. He said it was an inch, good enough for me. I've checked my email everyday, I guess I have nothing better to do? I am also gearing up for spring season, they posted the roads and as soon as they are unposted work will start coming in. I am also preparing for taxes, renewing license plates (another story in itself, see other thread), building basement and helping a friend do his, too. I also have to care for my son during the day as my wife works, as we can't afford the $$ for daycare if I don't work steady. It gives me time to spend with him though, and I don't mind that as I get extremely busy in the summer (work sun up til sundown).

I am sorry, but the excuse of being to busy to email or post is bull. Be honest, you never intended to meet me did you? There is no other side of the story either as far as I am concerned. If there was, you would have been eager to meet me so I could share back the story, and SMG would score some points. Instead, you give excuses why you are too busy and can't get to your computer. If you would have at least contacted me so we could have started to arrange something, I might think different.

Just one of these is mine. '05 Honda Rancher ES 350 2x4

Jeff

PS. I would still be standing!


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Spin Doctor*

This thread was started AFTER payment was not made as agreed upon. Their actions brought about this discussion. Not one person in this thread has been accused of wrong doing but SMG, until now. I for one operate an honest company. Others state they work for honest fast paying contractors then stick up for a company that does not pay fast and is less than honest. I don't understand that. Again the posts contradict them selfs. I for one counted 10 posts to defend and or request more time to answer. This sounds like my kids who argue 2 hrs to get out of doing a 10 minute job. I for one feel the followers of JAA have lost there creditability.

The best part of this is the Internet. We can see when and where the snow events have happened. We can also talk about issues that are causing the snow removal industry problems. In our state when a large contractor does not pay his subs, the person who benefited is still liable. So when the area management company pulls the don't pay the sub contractor act, the person who benefited will still pay. Now I ask all you disciples of JAA how does this make the snow removal industry look to our customers? Paying 2 times for the same job. This is socially unacceptable.

In closing I am very happy to see all the neat man toys the honest hard working snow removal contractors have been able to purchase. We do not have to dream, we live the American dream.

Dave


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Kathleen said:


> mr banks -
> mr banks - pls remember - this is the only time I will respond to you.
> 
> Thank you,


That's fine, however, as you can surmise, I will be drafting a response to your post. In the mean time, if the other side of the story was so truthful and compelling, it would have been put out there by now. Either through yourself or some other SMG believer. Like I said, two sides of the story are always nice to have. I have spoken about my side and given some insight, facts, etc about the other side as I see it, understand it and factually know it to be. I have not pulled any punches, nor have I embellished.


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*John you lucky man!*

Quote "mr banks - pls remember - this is the only time I will respond to you."

John I wish people that cant understand normal thinking would not talk to me either. I can see your life will be better than mine even though you ride one of them lay down crotch rockets.

Dave


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## DaveOhio (Jul 23, 2000)

*the new harley rider*

You all sick to the HD. I don't like today's rider. Yuppie.

This is their first bike. JAA would ride one if he were taller.

I don't like the Jap front end.

I'll stick with the Vincent Black Shadow.


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

Kathleen said:


> SkykingHD - Look closer at the names of the companies - you do not know who you are responding to.
> Thank you,


Mybe we do or maybe we don't.

Unless I've overlooked someting, it's interesting to note that Snow Managment Systems, as listed in Kathleen's sig line, is not a regestered company in either the the state of Illinois or Wisconsin. There is a similar company name, Snow Manegement, Inc., but the registered agent is DBA as a construction company in northern Illinois.

Unless I've overlooked something, Triton Snow Systems, Inc., was recently incorporated in the State of Illinois in Feb 05.

The above information is a matter of public record found via the Internet.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

As an out side observer of this thread it it clear that Kathleen is side stepping the Q, Saying" I don't have time to respond", but she keeps on responding to every thing but the Q-at hand,
Just a snake in the grass with no credibility or she is a figurehead with no ability to really answer any questions, IMO
So, Kathleen why don't you step out from behind the curtain and answer the Q. in public if you have nothing to hide?


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Very interesting Rob, thanks for the info.

DaveOhio and SkykingHD, I hear where you're coming from. My wife would rather see me on a HD, but I want a Martin Bros. or a Jesse James, so until I have an extra $100k+ floating around, it'll have to wait. I love the Ducati, and while it's not a V-Twin it is an L-Twin, nothing in-line or Jap about it. Straight from Bologna, Italy. So I feed it pasta and veal instead of rice. LOL


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Registered name means nothing*

The registered name mean nothing. The companies that I am addressing are the companies that do business in the following manner.
1. Build company 2 corps deep so the subs have no recourse WHEN they quit paying.
2. Bid jobs below what the cost of performing the work IE. Job costs 3.2 million to remove snow and salt last yr. This year the "area management" company bids 900K. Then try to sub out the job for $600K.
3. They hire young companies that do not know the cost of operating there equipment. Take advantage of them knowingly.
4. Lie and cheat them out of the money that they do agree on.
This is the companies I am finding fault with. As this causes problems in the snow removal industry.

If you are a contractor that pays as you agree. A contractor that has a handle on what the cost of snow removal is in your area. Does not leave 50% of the money laying on the bid table I am not talking about you or finding fault with you.

If you follow the teachings of JAA it does not matter what you charge or pay for snow removal as you have an out. Just don't pay the sub contractor. The construction industry has been doing this for years. I call it hiding the money in the second corp routine.

I wonder if people would come to a class and pay me money on how to treat your subs and employees to make them come back year after year and work for you?

Yes with the internet you can find out to much information about someone. I have to agree.
Dave


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

SkykingHD said:


> The registered name mean nothing.
> Dave


My point was to raise the question. Who really are these companies that want to hire Chicago area subcontractors's to work for them in the near future? If a potential subcontractor can't check their legal status, how can they make an informed decision and consider signing on with them?


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

*You motorcycle guys have it all wrong!*

You motorcycle guys have it all wrong!


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Sat Z 28*

Nice car. Your picture brings back some good memories! I remember when that car was new!

Your point is well taken. Who are you working for is not a bad thing to know. To know who you are working for should be a requirement of doing business.

My response was that the evil doers I have described, non payers etc, I don't really need to know there names. I just want others to know there are people who think this kind of action is not acceptable. I would also like them to not allow them selfs to be suckered into bankruptcy. If we all refuse to work for the evil doers they will go away. There plan will not work.

I am very pleased to see others that work hard and honestly are doing well enough to have the manly toys. You are living the American dream. Being honest does pay.

Dave


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## mbella (Dec 29, 2004)

I feel for you guys that didn't get paid. I've always been paid, but recently, I had an experience that put this into perspective. I received a call from my bank saying that a stop payment had been placed on one of my checks. This was not a small check. For me, it was a large check, tens of thousands of dollars. It turned out, an employee for the company that I plow for was supposed to stop payment on another contractor's check. She was off by one number. That one number off was my check. It took two days to clear it up. My life stopped for those two days.

I have five or six different subs for snow. I don't rely on getting paid to pay them. My agreement with them is that I will pay them. Not, I will pay them if I get paid.

As an neutral observer of this thread, I have to say that I am disappointed in the lack of explanation given for nonpayment on the part of the defenders.

Triton, what is the purpose of your responses to this thread?


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## LINY Rob (Oct 5, 2004)

Mdirrigation said:


> There is 1 thing to remember , these guys that start companies and go after all this snow work RELY on subs. Yes they will come into your area of business and bid lower . There is 1 simple way to put a quick stop to them , PARK YOUR TRUCK , dont work for them . The temptation will be there , if you have no work , but if they cant find subs , they will lose the job , they will lose their credibility . Then the jobs will be back open to the local contractors. I have been approached in the past by another "snow" company not mentioned here . I told them my rates are the same whether its my job or theirs , an hour is an hour , and a ton spread is a ton . The guy wanted to know how he was to make money if i charged him my regular price , " well you should have bid higher then " This " major snow company " lasted 2 years . Mainly because they bit off more than they could chew AND the word got out not to work for them . Word travled fast and they couldnt find subs. These are SALES ORGINIZATIONS playing on the customer who wants cheap and the newer contractor who wants money , play both ends against the middle and take the icing off the top.
> 
> Its simple , ONLY SUB TO A LOCAL CONTRACTOR THAT IS ESTABLISHED IN THE AREA , you know where he lives and he pays , keep the money in your community .


this may be the best post in this thread, I plow for the same company for 9 years, never ever have they shorted me or not paid me within 2-3 days of plowing. Small company where the 2 brothers who own the place plow right along side everyone else, not driving a desk and a phone.

It would seem as though the arguement is that certain subs tried to bill more then they should have, and SMG caught them so they didnt pay or only paid 75%??


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

*Sorry for the long post folks, but I feel this is important enough to go through*

Here's my reply, I'll try to keep it succinct. You're right Kathleen, I do complain, and I think rightfully so. Would you not complain if you were owed money from last season, and were lied to so blatently, etc. I think I have the right to not only complain, but to educate as many people as possible about what transpired. Still you don't get it. You answered the SMG relationship question, here's another? Are you a Symbiot Partner? Did they sucker you into paying them their $750 Annual Partnership Investment? You pay us $750 for the opportunity to bid work for us, which you may never get. Sounds like another win/win/win situation.
Honestly, I am happy to hear that you have never had a problem with them, 'cause when you do, it's certainly no fun. I have spoken with a few other contractors who work for SMG who have not had problems, however, they are the ones who get paid directly from CVS and Wachovia.



Kathleen said:


> *mr banks -
> Look back at your replies - it seems that all you do is complain. That is the very reason that this will be the only response that you get from me. Who are you to question what I am doing in my overlapping seasons. There are quotes to give, plans to draw, subs to hire and the winter to wrap up. A lot of people here seem to have more time to spend complaining - it makes me wonder if they have anything to do except wait for the next storm. In answer to one of your questions I am not a disciple or employee or relative of SMG. I am a contractor who never has had a problem with them. Isn't that strange to hear that from someone. As for the rest of those who claim to know how I operate or the size of our company, guess what - you don't know anything about those issues.*





> * There are many people on this site that know the story of what happened with SMG and a few others who worked for my company. There are people here who dealt with SMG last year and you don't see them complaining. Dont any of you dare infer that a large company doesn't pay and that they cut prices to get work. I don't do any of that and we will always be sucessful. We have subs that would be more than happy to say that too.*


I have yet to hear from any of them, and if this story was so truthful and compelling, it would have been told already, likely by JAA himself, and not a disciple or lacky. I am willing to listen to anyone about the other side...

Like I said above, so far the only ones not complaining are those who are directly paid from CVS and Wachovia.

I will dare to say it, because they didn't pay me, and when they did it was short 25% and I'm still waiting, now until June '05 for the balance. They did cut prices and I have the testimony that they did it. I'll say it again, a $3.2MM account was bid by SMG for $900k. Either they have no idea what they are doing when they bid, or they low-balled it. They try to brainwash the prospective clients on how they are getting ripped off and have been overpaying and then they lowball it.

I'm glad to hear that you don't do any of the game playing, and I hope that you are always successful.



> * I would like to get all of you seated in a room. I would ask all of you to stand up. I would ask you to sit if you have ever billed for more salt than you spread, have any of you ever billed a customer or contractor for more time than you actually spent plowing, how many of you have ever laughed at what you charge people, how many of you have denied damaging property that you actually damaged and tried to get out of fixing and last but not least how many of you have cheated a sub out of money? I doubt that many would be left standing. Those are the people that should hear the truth behind the story that you are spewing. You act as if you tell the truth and that everyone should listen to you. There are people that work for us that know the story and they see your faults in what you say. I am not claiming that there was no fault on the part of SMG. There was. You were all offered several choices of recourse and you chose. Be honorable and live with that choice. Now that you made that choice you have no right to continue your complaining. Nobody twisted anyone's arm to choose.
> *


If these are the business priciples that you operate under, then I understand. This is not how I operate. While I am far from perfect, I make it a point to perform the best service that we can. Our prices are probably higher than most, but you get what you pay for. Our clients know what they want, and want what they want. They understand our philosophy and are comfortable with how we operate. If they weren't, obviously I wouldn't be in business.

I have spoken nothing but the truth here, and I don't consider it spewing, but more like relaying my experience so as to hopefully save others from making the same mistake. If anyone has seen any faults in what I say, again, I would be more than happy to speak with them.

We were not offered several choices of recourse. We were offered 75% of what we were owed, payed in installments dragged out almost 9 months. They touted this as a win/win/win, which is nothing but BS. We lost. Sure we could have sued, gone to court, and look at those lines forming now. Public record shows JAA tried to restructure and change the liability positions of his companies a short time ago. Now he is being sued by many creditors and contractors.

How can you say that I made my choice and have no right to complain? Yes, I made the choice to accept the settlement, but don't think I'm going to stop complaining, because, simply, what they did was not right. Don't tell me about honor. They should have been honorable and honored their own contract.



> * Sometimes the gossip here is past the point of intolerable. We will always operate in a professional manner and people will contine to want to work for us if for no other reason than we are fair to our subs and employees and we always deliver what we promise. If all of that flies in the face of what you think of large companies then I feel sorry for you.
> *


Again, nothing I've said has at all been gossip. I have told the truth, the facts and there are many more pieces of this puzzle that are still left to be told. Stay tuned.

When you say "We", can you tell me who is we? Is it Symbiot? Is is Snow Management Systems? I have never heard of Snow Management Systems, not is their any information about your company. How large are you? How many subs do you have? Please inform us...



> * I know that I answered many questions from many people here but until I visit with the member from N Il that is all I have to say. mr banks - pls remember - this is the only time I will respond to you.
> *


Why all the secrecy? I don't understand why you won't simply tell us the other side as you put it...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Snow Management Systems 
Kathleen Ryan 
160 Elizabeth Lane 
Genoa City, WI 53128 

Try this. This is some of their info listed as a member of SIMA. The other information is listed under the general area of the website, NOT MEMBER'S ONLY. 

Kathleen, for the list you gave, I have never overcharged a customer. We might be able to perform work more efficiently and therefore the actual time comes in below what we bid, but that is why we are in business--to make a profit. We also have minimum charges, so in a way we are charging for more time or more material, but the customer has always agreed to it. I have never and will never screw a sub, they are a large part of what makes me successful. I have actually been worried about the size of some of the bills I have sent out, I sure don't laugh about them. I will never, ever deny damaging something, I will do my best to determine whether we actually damaged something and when it is our fault or appears likely, I take care of it ASAP. But it is my job to protect my company from expenses that we did not incur. 

I probably get taken advantage of by other people, but I expect to be treated the same way by employees, subs, and anyone else I deal with. I take there word for it unless I can prove otherwise in which case I will not do anymore business with that person. 

If that's the way things happen in the big city of Chicago, I am glad I live and work in a 'big' small town. I know I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror if I even thought I was stealing from someone in the above ways. I guess I was brought up differently. Definitely not my loss.

BTW, we've been in business since 1932 operating under the principles of honesty, hard work and providing excellent service. We've worked for many customers for over 20 years, a few over 30, and 1 over 40.

Like the others said, stop blowing smoke up our chutes and just tell us the other side. If you do it once, you may not have to continue 'not responding' to all these responses. lol


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Thanks Mark, yeah, other than the SIMA listing, there is no other info. Strange...

And Amen to what you said Mark. Honesty, hard work and great service goes a long way, and you're proof to that.

I truly and strongly believe in the virtues of Integrity, Pride, Excellence, Craftsmanship and Confidence. These define our ethic.


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Let the truth be known !*

I for one want to thank you John Banks for telling the Internet snow plowing community about area management companies not paying as agreed. We all need to know who is causing cash flow problems. The heads up you have given us is very valuable.

As we speak there is a large area management company failing. They are giving snow removal and salting a bad name in our area. I will post this information as it becomes available.

If there was an "other side" it would have been public knowledge by now. No smoke no mirrors and excuses. Sub contracting is not a bad thing. How ever when you gain from sub contracting at the expense of the sub contractor that is not right.

I find fault with someone who tried to run down honest contractors who they know nothing about. As it has been correctly pointed out no other contractors are the issue here. The actions of SMG / Simbot or what ever name they go under is a at question. The disciples of the area management doctrine are spreading evil in our industry. The disciples who make money at the expense of theres are the evil doers.

Again I am very please you have taken up this effort to tell the Internet snow plow community of the evil in the industry. Your actions have saved others many thousands of dollars.

If you ride your scooter to our area I would like to treat you to a harley dinner, a pig roast with beer while listening to a blues band. I know when you get home you will sell that pasta burner and get a HD. (this is a joke but I will do the dinner thing)

Dave


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## plowed (Nov 30, 2001)

Dave, thank you for your support. I will take you up on the dinner offer if I am ever in your area. Thank you. An HD will one day be amongst my toy list. I did notice that your screen name SkykingHD, stands for the Harley that you showed us, but the Skyking part, is that your plane as well in the background? Forgive me for being rude, but am just curious? I have always enjoyed flying and love planes.

It's troubling to hear about more area management companies going bust, but it looks like the model is not working for them either. It's a disgrace that they operate in such a manner.

I am only doing this, like you said, to help and inform. I'd hate to think that someone could lose their family, home and/or business as a result of area management companies like this, if I had never voiced my case. I would feel so guilty, knowing what I do, and just keeping my mouth shut.


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Dang. Ok where do I send it?
> 
> I have a better idea. I'm having some cash flow problems, can I send you 25% now, 25% in 6 months and the last 25% in a year? That would be a win/win right? Wait a minute, that doesn't add up to 100%, oh well, your loss. Win/win/screwed, that's close enough isn't it?


Mark, I'm still waiting for my 1st 25%.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SatZ28 said:


> Hey we represent that remark! Chicago voters vote early and vote often
> 
> Mark, I'm still waiting for my 1st 25%.


Sorry, I didn't mean to insult all Chicagoans, I wasn't even thinking about that when I typed my reponse, that's a good one, though. I'm pretty sure you know who I was referring to, though.

It's in the mail, really, I promise, I swear, it'll be there.


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Plowed*

Thanks for asking about plane. That is mine also. We have been working an honest snow plowing and salting company for 30+ yrs. I have been a pilot for over 24 yrs. That is what you can have if you work honestly and long hours. The Skyking is for the old TV program Sky King. You might not remember it. It was in black and white. Yes I am that old.

If you come to our area I can take you for a ride in Cessna and show you the area from a different view. We purchased a new radio stack for plane last year. We now have LNAV/VNAV & LPV approach capability's now. The newest type of GPS on the market for general aviation.

Yes you can get ahead with honest work.

Dave


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to insult all Chicagoans, I wasn't even thinking about that when I typed my response, that's a good one, though. I'm pretty sure you know who I was referring to, though.
> 
> It's in the mail, really, I promise, I swear, it'll be there.


Vito, our outstanding revenue collector (He collect's 100% of outstanding receivables, with 50% interest added) is do to leave for Grand Rapids on Monday............


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## scuba875 (Dec 22, 2004)

I could be wrong but I don't think it could be a very large company John. I know that area and it isn't a very populated area at all, it's farm country for the most part. The population is around 2,000 and the cities around it are equally as small. The closest thing to a larger community is Lake Geneva with a population of only around 7,000. My cousin and her husband just bought a house not to far from her. It's a very nice area but I just can't see there being an abundance of work there.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*Wisconsin*

I am about 45 mins west of Lake Geneva. Very nice area there, and lots of money in and around it. All the chicago people come up that way. There should be work out that way, but may have to travel a bit. They have Kenosha and Racine an hour to the east. Elkhorn is just 15 mins North of Lake Geneva. So in that area, there could be plenty of work, but she works with the guy in McHenry, IL? They seem to be talking about the same Harleys???
I dunno, and frankly don't care anymore. I do know one thing. I will NEVER sub for an area management company. I have you guys to thank for that. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna try being on my own next year instead of subbing. If you are wondering, I actually get paid 100% of what I am supposed to. And can get it right after the storm if I really needed. usually take my time, and figure since I know the family real well, I don't worry about them not paying. Best friends brother and family own that and concrete business.

Jeff


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## Triton Snow Systems (Aug 6, 2004)

I'm pretty sure this is a satalite location for this company. I'm also pretty sure they are based near the Chicago suburbs which we all know the population is adequate to support a substantial snow management company.


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## mbella (Dec 29, 2004)

Triton Snow Systems said:


> I'm pretty sure this is a satalite location for this company. I'm also pretty sure they are based near the Chicago suburbs which we all know the population is adequate to support a substantial snow management company.


No offense, but what is your point in responding to this thread?


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## heather lawn spray (Mar 11, 2003)

SkykingHD said:


> Thanks for asking about plane. That is mine also. We have been working an honest snow plowing and salting company for 30+ yrs. I have been a pilot for over 24 yrs. That is what you can have if you work honestly and long hours. The Skyking is for the old TV program Sky King. You might not remember it. It was in black and white. Yes I am that old.
> 
> If you come to our area I can take you for a ride in Cessna and show you the area from a different view. We purchased a new radio stack for plane last year. We now have LNAV/VNAV & LPV approach capability's now. The newest type of GPS on the market for general aviation.
> 
> ...


OUT OF THE BLUE OF THE WESTERN SKY COMES...
I hope you didn,t name it Songbird
yea I'm that old too


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## Triton Snow Systems (Aug 6, 2004)

mbella said:


> No offense, but what is your point in responding to this thread?


What is it your business? Are you a moderator? No Offense !!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SatZ28 said:


> Vito, our outstanding revenue collector (He collect's 100% of outstanding receivables, with 50% interest added) is do to leave for Grand Rapids on Monday............


Did I say I am in Grand Rapids, Michigan, I meant to say Grand Rapids, Minnesota. lol Tell you what, as soon as John gets all his money from SMG, I will send out the money I owe. win\win\win? Right?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Triton Snow Systems said:


> I'm pretty sure this is a satalite location for this company. I'm also pretty sure they are based near the Chicago suburbs which we all know the population is adequate to support a substantial snow management company.


Yeah, really what's your point?  lol

I thought they were in Chicago as well. I saw some pics of an airport style snowblower that they operate in Chicago, but that is the address listed. Sort of strange. It couldn't be that they don't treat their subs fairly and pay them what they are owed and they are trying to hide, or overcharge their customers or laugh about the invoices they send out, could it? I'm sure this isn't the case. If I remember correctly, those pictures were from just this year, a sub had posted them here or at another site. If it's the same company, they had a very nice website that I checked out. Now I can't find it, anymore.


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## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I thought they were in Chicago as well. I saw some pics of an airport style snowblower that they operate in Chicago, but that is the address listed.


Mark, I don't think Katleen has anything to do with the company that is linked here http://www.snowsystems.com/

Snow System has a shop/office that is located in Wheeling IL, which is about 20-30 miles south of where Kathleen is located. This my second year that I've subbed for them and have been paid 100% for the work I've performed. They have been in business since 1979.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

OK, I was mistaken. That was the one I was thinking of. I just got the names mixed up. I apologize for the mistake. Thank you for straightening me out. 

It does bring up some other questions though. Knowing this changes my thoughts on Kathleen's responses to this thread.


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## mbella (Dec 29, 2004)

Triton Snow Systems said:


> What is it your business? Are you a moderator? No Offense !!


Easy. I just thought some of your posts were bizarre and offered nothing to either side and I was curious why you were responding. Guys are posting about being ripped off and you respond with a reference to Harley's?? I was just curious. I apologize if I offended you. I will leave it at that.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Probably has something to do with the fact that the quote you used was completely relevant to this thread. I didn't understand what you were getting at either.

It's called hijacking a thread and it happens frequently. For the most part nobody really gets too concerned when it happens unless they are uptight. I am not implying you are uptight, just that most people don't care when it happens. Actually, I'm not sure I would classify this as hijacking, it was just off on a tangent of what good happens when you get paid what you are rightfully owed.


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## mbella (Dec 29, 2004)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Probably has something to do with the fact that the quote you used was completely relevant to this thread. I didn't understand what you were getting at either.
> 
> It's called hijacking a thread and it happens frequently. For the most part nobody really gets too concerned when it happens unless they are uptight. I am not implying you are uptight, just that most people don't care when it happens. Actually, I'm not sure I would classify this as hijacking, it was just off on a tangent of what good happens when you get paid what you are rightfully owed.


Agreed, I should have used a different quote. It was the talking about "what good happens" that I thought was strange. Anyway, my apologies.


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## DaveOhio (Jul 23, 2000)

*Hijack*

I feel like my thread has been hijacked. Why are we snooping through Kathleen's business and criticizing her ignorant lackey? It's obvious she overstepped her knowledge and kicked a hornet's nest by responding here.

My thread is about this: SMG/Symbiot is driving down the cost of snow removal. $900K for a $3,200K mall. Can you people read? They are sending round the chief Huckster/Con man to recruit next year's subs. Are you paying attention current subs? The handwriting is on the wall.

The 2004-2005 season is all but over. I have been told most of the readers of this board are Joe six packs with rolling scrap iron equipment trying to make the big easy money plowing. I don't think so. I give you guys and gals way more credit than that.

Where do the area management companies keep finding these suckers that will take a new pick up and plow for $32.50 per hour?

When I got my first plow truck I did what I did when I first learned to shovel snow. I got my own route.

JAA crossed a line sometime back. You all stay away and don't get greedy. I wish all the honest contractors the best.

David


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*not hi jacked - just broadened*

Dave

I feel your thread was just broadened a little. There will always be people who will try get rich quick theories. We have seen that here. There will be people who don't understand simple logic.

As we speak there are followers of the area management doctrine loosing money. When a large govt job paid $225,000 for snow and ice control last year and then this past season an area management company bid $176,000 for that job and 16 MORE. Add to that we have had a near record snow fall this season, well you can figure it out. Some people lost money. Some will recover and some won't.

I for one thank every one that helped expose this problem in the snow removal industry. As I have said in past posts this rouse is not new, it has been used in the construction industry for as long as I can remember.

Dave there were over 100 posts and I can't even guess how many people had to learn from the thread you started. This was very informative.

Again I thank you and all others that had input to this post.

Dave


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

I am glad this post was started also. It showed me what I believe the truth as I have not been contacted as K. said she would "in a couple of days". I don't agree with area management philosophy anyhow because they make money for doing nothing. If anyone is going to make money off of my labor for doing nothing, then I would rather that be me! I don't even want to be an employee in my "normal" job cause of the fact that you are just making someone else rich with your 110% that you give them. I would rather work for myself, and although more risky, at least I am the one who reaps the rewards. With that in mind, if I worked for area management and didn't get paid, I would be out of business, and possibly put me out of trucking too. If I didn't get paid from what little plowing we get to do, I would have to just come up with 4000.00, after not working and getting paid all winter, to get the lic. plates for the semi. Not to mention the work I would miss while trying to just dig up 4000.00. Not to mention my wife's job isn't looking to good at the moment. Hers is our stable income that we can rely on, and mine we keep hoping will pay off for the hard work someday. 

Long story short. If I worked for area management and wasn't paid when promised and then only 75%, then we might be forced into bankruptcy. That in turn would sour my wife on me having own business. Before you know it, I would be an unhappy employee somewhere again.

Thanks guys from saving me from this little pitfall. Now if I can stay away from the other ones that I don't know about. Whether true or not. I made up my mind and this one won't bite me. I'll sell the plow to them if they want it, but with an inflated price, but that would be it. 

I also thank KAR for filling me in on the "other side" of the story. Her non-response has proven to me that there is no other side. If there was another side, with the defense that was put here by her in regards to area management, she would have been very eager to share. The only contact I had with her is what you guys have seen on this post. Hopefully that confirms any doubts anyone else might have on this subject.

Then again, maybe she is very busy, since we didn't get any snow events here to speak of in the last monthand a half. She could be busy crossing all the T's and dotting the I's to get paid in full. Maybe you guys didn't spend the month and a half on your paperwork to ensure full payment! Sorry, couldn't resist.

Jeff

One question. Why is JAA the uncrowned king of snow removal? What did he do that was so exceptional for everyone to want to line his pockets? Is it that he is a good speaker and able to "control" people like Hitler, the Koresh guy in waco, and all the other groups with leaders that are so good at brainwashing that they have followers willing to do what he says? I guess i just don't understand paying him for him to tell me how to plow snow. I was lucky enough to be born with common sense (I think I got my brother's share too, but that is another story). If I could get people to follow me with my words, then I would be rich too. I guess he gave me the common sense, but left out the charm (I think my brother and sister both split my share). 

By the way sky, JAA's get rich quick scheme worked!


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*People Eater*

I have seen the cost of his seminar go from $145 down to the cost of getting into the landscape convention. I hear there are 10 banks who have filed suit. I hear there are many contractors in court also. I have dealt with lawyers before. When the lawyers get done with him he will not be as well to do as you or he thinks he is.

I put my money on the lawyers. They will empty the wallet.

Making money is easy, keeping it is hard.

Dave


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

Ok. Well it worked for a while. I am still wondering why everyone thinks he is king of snowplowing? I don't care what he did once or whatever. What is it that really makes him any differnet than any other guy that plows for an extensive period of time. You kind of gain your own knowledge if you pay attention and remember and learn from your mistakes. 
The only thing I have seen is that he wrote a book on how to snowplow, started or helped start SIMA?, and lowballed everyone, and didn't pay as agreed, to grow company so he could get rich. Those are the things that I see. Am i missing something?

Jeff

Ill write a book and speak at events, heck we could even start our own organization?! If I started a big snow mngmnt co., I would still bid right prices and pay, that way I could KEEP growing instead of resting on my wallet. Anyone interested?


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## DaveOhio (Jul 23, 2000)

*Guess you had to be there*

John was the darling of the industry. He's a likable guy and as I've said before and I learned from him. This was before Plowsite and information about how other companies do things was not as readily available, at least to me.

Dino, JAA, and Lawn Lad are gone now. Selling tires, in protective custody or working for Sensitivity Trainers of Cleveland, Inc., they will never post here again.

John should not be compared with Hitler or bin Laden as he has been on this website. I don't think anyone should say stuff they would not say to his face. He got big fast and it all got away from him. With proper supervision he could still be a good employee.

Ask yourself this, though. Were plowing contractors better off before plowsite?

To understand how different he was and his blind following I guess you had to be there.

Dave


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DaveOhio said:


> John was the darling of the industry. He's a likable guy and as I've said before and I learned from him. This was before Plowsite and information about how other companies do things was not as readily available, at least to me.
> 
> Dino, JAA, and Lawn Lad are gone now. Selling tires, in protective custody or working for Sensitivity Trainers of Cleveland, Inc., they will never post here again.
> 
> ...


You might want to do more checking before you spout off. Dino and Lawn Lad are not in protective custody, they are active at another plowing site. I don't know where you come off lumping them in with JAA? Could you explain this BS?

So if Hitler or bin Laden had posted here they would be OK? I agree, I think it is a stupid comparison, but you might want to check your reasoning before trying to refute a statement. I'm pretty willing to bet that JAA has read every one of these posts, if he wants to speak with me about what I wrote, he can e-mail me or call, no problem. I'd bet most of these others would be willing to say this to his face, other than the stupid comparison to Hitler\bin Laden.

Growing big\fast is not the only problem if you would read these posts. UNDERBIDDING or LOWBALLING is where the problem lies. I aks again, how did hes excessive growth cause him to fail? He didn't have to buy much equpiment, buildings, real estate; just some administrative staff. This was just an excuse.

JAA did not have much to do with plowsite other than contribute and be a moderator when it first took off. That was it. There were and are some people that had a lot more to do with the forums than he did. Yes, he has given valuable info on this forum, no argument there. Yes, you can learn something from pretty much everyone and everything. No in general, we were not better off before plowsite and another site which broke off, but it is even more important now because we can prevent other subs from getting screwed like they did by informing them of this kind of business malpractice.

I have some opinions on the way JAA did some things and participated in this forum before he go big, but they are opinions not fact. If you would like to hear them, I will PM or e-mail them to you.

And yes I have been here since JAA was here and when this site really took off and even through the BS a year and a half ago, when some of the best contributors left for another site.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

First of all, I never mentioned bin Laden. That guy is about violence, pure and simple. I am not referring to him as being evil. What I am referring to (these examples just came to mind, maybe bad ones) is the fact that people will do things based on what people tell them. Basically, what I am referring to him as is one of the brilliant speakers that can talk you into anything (con, charm, whatever you want to call it). I'm not trying to be offensive, just trying to pur things into perspective.

What knowledge does JAA have that other experienced plowers don't? If he posted here like me and you, and learned or helped others, what qualifications does he have to be the "King"? Was his advice that good? 

I would have NO problem asking him this to his face. If I owned a consulting business for plowing or whatever, wouldn't you want my credentials or qualifications. 

AGAIN, I ASK WHAT IS IT THAT MAKES OR MADE HIM SUCH A "KING". I wasn't there, and am having trouble figuring out WHY he was the darling of the industry? Doesn't matter if before plowsite, or another forum. If you could help me figure this out, I would very much appreciate it.

PS. I think I made clear the comparisons with the Hitler remark. I could use a more common person, maybe somone that I know, like my step-father. Do you know him? Would that have made the example or would you have thought, I dunno what that guy is like to compare him to JAA. It was used as an example because Hitler was actually very good at public speaking and making people believe he was right for whatever. Why wouldn't I ask JAA why I should listen to him? It is like someone else telling me something and then I must decide if I want to believe him? I would want to know the qualifications as to why or why I should not listen to the person.

Maybe you guys should reread my posts?

Jeff


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Peopleeater, yes i should have reread your posts, I apologize.  For some reason I have not been getting notified on every response and I did not take the time to go through the posts I missed. Sorry.

You are correct, though, the way some of these people defend him and jsut about every action, is ridiculous. I'd put good money down that other than JAA, there are very few that know everything that went on. John Banks knows a ton, probably most of everything, just not everything. These people that keep spouting off about not knowing the other side are ignorant, IMO. It does seem to be SMG, right, wrong or otherwise. 

I know a lot of people personally on the other forum that had the exact same line of BS pulled on them, all from the same company. The only common denominator is SMG\JAA. That tells me everything I need to know.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

Thanks Mark for the reply. Just trying to figure out how the others were duped by him. While we don't have to worry about JAA or SMG, there will always be another to take his place. Any information gleaned from that is helpful to everyone so we allcan avoid some of the pitfalls in life, business, etc. I know neither side except for what I have read here. I offered to be a middle man for the "other side", but as you can tell by the posts that I was never contacted again. This makes it hard for me to believe anything but what I have read from contractors. There is no other side of the story as far as I am concerned. It just makes me sad to see others (honest people) getting screwed. If I can stay out of that trap, or one similar to it, then I accomplished job #1. Job #2 is trying to keep anyone else away from them. I know that is idealistic, but what else is there to do, keep quiet?

Thanks again mark for your reply,

Jeff


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## Robhollar (Dec 27, 2003)

If it waddles like a duck , eerrr well it must be a duck. Is that a low baller im smelling????Rob


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## Tony Bonventre (Feb 11, 2004)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Guess you forgot.*



Tony Bonventre said:


> I am not posting anymore,
> 
> By the way about the plow I was kidding.


Guess you forgot. Or was a nerve struck?

Dave


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## DaveOhio (Jul 23, 2000)

So I'm being called a lowballer by one of John Allin's employees and a guy who can't spell Cleveland?

How was the SMG season Tony? With John not posting anymore it's hard to keep track of the total. Couple years ago you could get JAA on a roll and he'd spit escalating totals faster than today's gas pumps.

"Four hundred million, why no, he he that was 26 trucks ago. he he" I guess that was gross, huh? Not net. When you see him next ask him if it was all worth it. Would he do it again the same way? These alledged lawsuits may make this a long, ugly summer. 

Have a good off season, everyone. Clean and grease that equipment.

David


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

DaveOhio, just another KoolAid drinker.  

Good one about the gas pumps. lmao


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## Triton Snow Systems (Aug 6, 2004)

I think that this thread might actually be ready to be put to sleep.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*Actually*



Triton Snow Systems said:


> I think that this thread might actually be ready to be put to sleep.


Actually, I find this thread QUITE interesting. :waving:

Jeff


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*Keep information alive!*

There are many scams in this world. Someone is always trying to find there niche in the business world. Some are above board and legitimate while others are not legitimate. We are lucky that we can hear of the scams before we become a victim.

This non payment of contractors is not new to the business world. Non payment and paying less than agreed upon is just becoming wide spread in our industry.

We need to never forget as in coming years someone will try and think up a different twist to this scam that we have exposed.

Why would anyone want to put this scam information to bed? It is not good for the industry. It is only good for the scammer.

Dave


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Triton Snow Systems said:


> I think that this thread might actually be ready to be put to sleep.


I'd be willing to bet that there isn't someone behind you holding a gun to your head forcing you to read this thread. Pretty good bet, I'd say. It's a free country, you don't like it, don't read it.

There is an option to unsubscribe from threads as well, maybe you should try it.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'd be willing to bet that there isn't someone behind you holding a gun to your head forcing you to read this thread. Pretty good bet, I'd say. It's a free country, you don't like it, don't read it.
> 
> There is an option to unsubscribe from threads as well, maybe you should try it.


I agree. Either stop reading it as suggested above, or contribute to it by making comments that are not off topic.

Jeff


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'd be willing to bet that there isn't someone behind you holding a gun to your head forcing you to read this thread. Pretty good bet, I'd say. It's a free country, you don't like it, don't read it.


Nate, what part of the above statement don't you understand? You missed most of this thread because of your accident. You didn't have to post or reply because it doens't affect you. Are you trying to tick people off? Is that your only reason for 'contributing' to this thread? And I use the term contributing very loosely.

Come to think about it, I'd bet even more money that if someone ripped you off, you'd be all over the place spouting off your rhetoric. Probably even threatening more people with your Mossberg.

But it's OK when you are not the one getting ripped off.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*Wow!!!*

Kind of seems something happened here, hey Mark. Guess that is why we should stay on topic?!!

Jeff 

PS. Hey Mark, that "other place" doesn't seem to be very friendly.?! Might just have to stay in one place instead of crossing over. I do appreciate your input though, and want to thank you for doing the job you do. I don't think I deserved to be jumped on like I was, especially since what I said does have at least an ounce of truth. I don't think I am going to offer any more advice or input there as it doesn't seem to be very "qualified", even though I dug up nemerous sources that seems to back my position at least a little. Kind of sucks cause I know there are "quality" posters there. Good thing its the off-season now.

And I do apologize if this is a little off topic, so if you mods see a need to do something. I would appreciate if you let it stay for at least a little bit for Mark to read. I don't want to get banned. Thank you.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Jeff, I replied over on the other thread. Check it out. Let me know if I need to do a better job explaining. Don't go away, give it a chance. You have had excellent input from what I've seen so far.


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## Peopleeater (Jan 8, 2005)

*Thanks again*

I saw that, but didn't see this one right away. Thanks for your support. Like I said, I felt a little (belittled? if that is the word I am looking for) I would have taken offense, I guess, if someone would have posted that. I don't know. And I have watched the dark side a bit, but spent most of my time here. But when the whole calendar girls thing, I started to look for more options. I have seen other valuable members leave. Just figured I would be better off with BOTH places as they both are good resources.

The reason I took offense (alot of it anyhow) was that he is a moderator. In my opinion they have to temper responses a bit for the sake of the site? But that is jsut my opinion.

Jeff


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