# Equipment purchase advice - 10 acre commercial lot



## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Another new guy post, so please go easy on me! I’m trying to do my research and value the opinion of you pros!

I’m retiring next year at 53 from law enforcement (Thank god!) and one of the companies I worked security jobs for offered me their plowing/salting and lawn care contracts after I retire. I’m ready to invest in the right equipment and would appreciate some advice. The business is in southern Wisconsin and I will be plowing 8 acres, which consist of 4 large asphalt parking lots (17 small medians) and 2 acres of 25 foot wide driveway. The contract is for 60K. There is also a 6 acre business that connects to this lot and I would eventually try to secure that contract. These would be the only two businesses I would plow. I have calls into my insurance agent and have a couple of retired friends I plan to hire when we get hit hard with snow. I will also be cutting the grass at this business.

I currently own a 2012 F350 with a 7’6” Boss straight blade, a 1970 Ford 65hp Diesel loader tractor – 2wd, a 14,000 lb construction trailer - ATV

My plan was to lease a large loader with a 12 foot (or larger) snow pusher for 4 months and in addition, I would purchase a used dump with a 9 or 10 foot plow and large salter (I would like to spend $20-35k on this) . I’ve seen used loader tractors for 20k, but I’m guessing they may not be too reliable. I’m new to the salting, but it looks like from reading forums. I will need to lay down about 1000/lbs per acre. I use my tractor for planting food plots and considered selling my old Ford tractor and buying a new heated cab 4 X 4 tractor 70hp or larger or skid loader. This would be in addition to the dump, but if I spent 40k on a new tractor, I wouldn’t lease a loader.

Does this sound like a good start? What would you do differently? I appreciate your suggestions and advice!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

How long are the pushes?

I read fast, but skip leasing the loader as it's cost prohibitive, sell the Furd, get a 100ish HP tractor and plow with that.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

3 problems I see right off the bat.
1. You will need at least 1-2 other people with you even on light events, not just heavy.
2. You need at least 1 piece of equipment that will move large amounts of snow no matter how much is on the ground. Meaning something heavy with a big(12-14’) pusher on it. Maybe you could lease this?
3. Securing or having access to a sufficient quantity of salt that you will need for a property of this size. You will need a lot!

You can forget about that 2 wheel drive tractor imo. Also a 60hp+ skid steer with a 10’ plow or pusher or ability to do both would be a valuable asset to have as well. That can be leased as well.
Those are just the quick thoughts that came to mind.
You got walks at this place?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Could use the 2 Wheel drive tractor to load the Salter?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Could use the 2 Wheel drive tractor to load the Salter?


I going to suggest that.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

K


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## Highlandlc (Jan 1, 2021)

Are you required to have covered salt storage to prevent seepage into groundwater? Going to need a big pile for storms.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

I agree with the other yahoos on selling the old Ford tractor as it sounds like you'll have another piece to load salt and will be useful for actual snow removal too...

Do you have any off season use for a skiddy, loader or newer tractor? I personally would buy whatever the biggest piece you can to push with. Compact with 12' box or a 30k lb machine with a 14' etc... 

This way you can avoid needing to try and hire help...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

You will need at least one other operator in the pickup, a bigger blade (8-10’ expandable IMO), something big to move snow with a pusher, a salter, etc. that’s a lot to slap on a 60k revenue stream.

IMO you better either get this contract for 5 years up front or pass on it. Only other way is to get more contracts nearby. Not enough revenue in this to get by.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Why would you want to take the pusher off the tractor drive back to the salt pile put the bucket on, load a truck, take the bucket off run back to push snow with the tractor
Can one tractor do double duty .

Anyway, why do you want to put a nice piece of equipment in the salt pile ?
put the old tractor in the salt pile and don’t worry about the money rusting away.

Jmo. 

And you can pull a mower with it in the summer


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Nobody even knows if there will be a salt pile...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

WIPensFan said:


> Nobody even knows if there will be a salt pile...


Exactly. Could be a shipping container and that changes everything...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> take the bucket off run back to push snow


This isn't @EWSplow nobody's running anywhere...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

WIPensFan said:


> Nobody even knows if there will be a salt pile...


No salt,, com'on...



Ajlawn1 said:


> Exactly. Could be a shipping container and that changes everything...


Ore where it will be located.

He could have some boss cubes already staged there and use the tractor to spread salt.?


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## Daley Construction (Nov 15, 2017)

I think a google earth picture of the lot would really help with getting more accurate advice.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> No salt,, com'on...
> 
> Ore where it will be located.
> 
> He could have some boss cubes already staged there and use the tractor to spread salt.?


Or maybe ole mop could hook him up with a double down bucket...


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

A vbox spreader in the pickup is plenty to salt that size property....speshul lee if you store salt on site(personally I would want/push hard for this).

sounds like investing in a newer, much bigger AG tractor would be best for your all around needs...4x4 85-105hp range probably...and a front end loader on it.

you need to make friends with a sub For backup. Maybe even hire a sub with a nice 2speed skid...do all the plowing with a skid(sub) and tractor(yours). Salt with Your pickup, and only use the pickup for plowing support/backup....in a pinch where the tractor or skid went down completely, the truck and skid (or tractor) could easily handle that much work.


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Wow, I reallly appreciate the advice! Mark, I definitly like the idea of buying a bigger tractor. My hesitation is wondering a 100 hp tractor would fit on my 20ft 14,000# trailer with a disc or brush hog attached and if it is adequate to do the job. I'd have to haul the tractor twice a year 3.5 hrs to my hunting property for food plots. The positive is I'd save $10,000 on a loader lease (Estimating that) and could sell my ford for around $7,000, which would free up $17,000 towards a newer tractor. The only downside is I've been reading the tractors have problems with traction and steering as opposed to a skidsteer or large wheel loader. That's why I'm asking they experts!

** I have about 62 yds of sidewalk

Good point WIPenFan on hiring another one or two drivers! I knw that I would have to do that and had hoped to pay a couple of guys cash that want to help out. I know that would be illegal, so I will probably just add them as 1099 independant contractors under my insurance. 

As for the skidsteer.. I would love to find a reason to purchase one. If only I could use a skidsteer to pull a disc, I would be set. I'm sure they have bush hogs for those (I cut a lot of clover) The only problem is narrowing down the choices between a bigger tractor, buying skidsteer and keeping the old tractor for loading salt and/or leasing a loader. 

Salt- some people have suggested sub-leasing the salting. I have no idea if that would be cost effective. The salting is all new to me. I do live on 6 acres and could make a place to store salt. I've also seen the parking lots by me store salt on side using the large square concrete blocks to make the sides and build it up against a building and cover it with tarps. Salting is definitly not in my comfort zone. 

Kvston-I hear where you are coming from with the revenue stream. My goal is to make enough money for vacations, home repairs and some play money and keep me busy. My pension and wife's income will cover our bills. I realize I won't get rich doing this. After 31 years in Law Enforcement, I can't see punching a time clock ever again and I'm kind of burnt out on dealing with the public. A pair of headphones and a lawnmower is more my speed at this point in my life. The 5 year plan was how long I think it will take me to pay off my house. I could work longer if I enjoy what I'm doing. 

**I was also hoping to get the 6 acre neighboring property to help with the cost of equipment.

I'm hoping if I buy the right equipment and take care of it, I won't lose my ass too bad on resale when I'm done. This is another reason why I value the opinion of the guys on this forum..If I make wise choices up front, it may help pay off in the future.


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

*Yes, I believe I could store salt on site, but would need to bring in concrete block or some other material to build an area.

**The parking lot should be vacant on weekends and very few cars after 5:00pm most weekdays. It's a private business closed to the public and the cars belong to the employees.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> This isn't @EWSplow nobody's running anywhere...


He's from Wisconsin. Don't underestimate his running capabilities.

Someone looking for a sub? Would be nice to not have to worry about sidewalk crews and whizzy clients...

65hp tractor? I've got an RT2 sitting around collecting rust...


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

WI*FNG said:


> *Yes, I believe I could store salt on site, but would need to bring in concrete block or some other material to build an area.
> 
> **The parking lot should be vacant on weekends and very few cars after 5:00pm most weekdays. It's a private business closed to the public and the cars belong to the employees.


that sounds gravy, as far as traffic/hours of operation you'll deal with.

get the concrete blocks and make a small bin on site. That eliminates having another machine somewhere else "just to load salt"....plus your time saved having salt on site is huge.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

WI*FNG said:


> ** I have about 62 yds of sidewalk


what do you mean? 62 cubic yds of 4in thick sidewalk?....because thats almost 5000sq ft of sidewalk....or do you mean 62 yds, in lineal feet? 
how wide are the walks


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

plow4beer said:


> what do you mean? 62 cubic yds of 4in thick sidewalk?....because thats almost 5000sq ft of sidewalk....or do you mean 62 yds, in lineal feet?
> how wide are the walks


Sounds like the walk is 62 yards in length. I didn't see cubic yards.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

EWSplow said:


> Sounds like the walk is 62 yards in length. I didn't see cubic yards.


that's what I thunk 2.....it's just strange to mean when people describe it that way. It's more helpful when you say X length by X width, when describing a sidewalk....big difference on how you can tackle a 3ft wide sidewalk, as opposed to a 10ft wide won.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Salting is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Chances are you will salt 3 times what you plow and you dont want to be gIving that mone away. Depending where you are some stone/landscape yards sell salt. Nearby us in Flint there is 2 or 3 places that stay open 24 hours for salt sales.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Devils advocate ; 
They want you now, will the same people still be there and want you to do the work in the future? what guarantees do you have somebody else wount come in and underbid you,
remember it’s just business. 

What happens?

Question, Are you buying yourself a hobby ,a job or a business?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I'll chime in with my 2 cents. I do not plow for a profit, and the closest I get to a conventional plowing vehicle is my '76 Oshkosh. However, I am plowing at the airport between hangar rows, and have a similar area to what you are considering. My work is easier in many ways than yours, since there are no islands and no vehicle traffic to pack down snow. It is also harder, since all the pushes are long, and salt cannot be used.

FWIW, here is what I wished I had done differently, and am working towards, as well as a few other comments.

Do not get a rubber edge pusher. I have two, and it works at the airport because we don't have compacted snow, but they do not scrape well. In fact, when I push over where people have walked, they may get down to asphalt in uncompacted snow, but it leaves the footprints behind.

I would get a MetalPless, HLA snowwing, or similar...Basically something that can be a pusher or a plow. Cleaning up windrows when the pusher begins to spill, or clearing away from the hangar doors, requires a different piece of equipment than a pusher. I wish I had known about and just bought a MP at the beginning. Then I could cut in around the buildings with a plow, then push, then consolidate the spillage and push again, all without changing vehicles. I am working towards putting a MP type plow on my aircraft tug, so I can retire the rubber edge pushers except for emergencies. 

These are very expensive plows, but the efficiency is much greater. The one caveat is that you may not care, since you aren't looking to expand into other properties at the moment. Hypothetically, taking 6 hours versus 3 may not matter to you.

Although it isn't a consideration for me, these sectional plows scrape well enough that it would reduce salt usage, so if you can charge the same rate for salting application in your area, you can might be able to increase your profit margin since you would have to put down less to achieve the same result. Others on here would have information on this.

Salt eats equipment. I have fewer problems with 45 year old equipment that has never seen salt than equipment from 2008 that salted for 6 years or so before I bought it.

I think that since you have to get down between aisles, something that would be a push box in the 10'-12' range, and widen out to a 16'-20' plow if the lot allows would be smaller than I would use for the airport, but might be ideal for you. Others on here would have better advice than I on what sizes work best in parking lots.

You don't have to road between sites, so top speed isn't an issue.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Salting is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Chances are you will salt 3 times what you plow and you dont want to be gIving that mone away. Depending where you are some stone/landscape yards sell salt. Nearby us in Flint there is 2 or 3 places that stay open 24 hours for salt sales.


What! No landscape yard in Lappeertucky selling salt?


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Hydromaster said:


> Devils advocate ;
> They want you now, will the same people still be there and want you to do the work in the future? what guarantees do you have somebody else wount come in and underbid you,
> remember it's just business.
> 
> ...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

OP, here’s my best advice... Save your money, just cut grass. If you really want to plow snow you could be a sub with your pickup and a bigger plow. Enjoy your life and don’t add this BS stress into it. Trust me, it’s a major PITA to do snow removal and bigger sites like these are tough unless you are properly set up.
I sincerely hope, whatever you decide to do, it all works out well for you.Thumbs Up


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

I always thought public safety was less stressful than owning/ running a business.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

WIPensFan said:


> OP, here's my best advice... Save your money, just cut grass. If you really want to plow snow you could be a sub with your pickup and a bigger plow. Enjoy your life and don't add this BS stress into it. Trust me, it's a major PITA to do snow removal and bigger sites like these are tough unless you are properly set up.
> I sincerely hope, whatever you decide to do, it all works out well for you.Thumbs Up


The man was a police officer..... I think just about any other profession pales in comparison in terms of bs stress. Coming from a different country, but appreciate op dealing with the worst society has to offer so I can peacefully push snow around.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I always thought public safety was less stressful than owning/ running a business.


I would say that depends on where your working in public safety at, and what kind of biz your running....I could see it either way. Elements to both paths, that the other doesn't have.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> What! No landscape yard in Lappeertucky selling salt?


I tried that once. I would much rather plow snow. Not enough people here buying salt per storm and they all want to come in at different times. Im not sitting around waiting for hours for the next guy.


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

For me I’d sell the pickup truck and tractor and buy a used class 6 or 7 dump truck with an under tailgate salter and plow. Can be had for 20-25k. Get yourself a wheeled 70ish hp skid for 13-15k and a buy a 8-10’ push box for a few gs. That puts your cost at 45k roundabout for your first year. You won’t net anything on your first year but your equipment will be paid for, mostly, after all costs.

Skid will load dump truck with salt onsite. Skid and a 10’ straight blade plow on the big truck can handle that property. You’ll only need one to hire one operator for a storm and take care of salting events yourself. You said you have an ATV? Throw a plow on it for the walks and you’ll be set.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

WIPensFan said:


> Save your money, just cut grass.


Well that's not the answer then...


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Thanks WPensfan..

Sorry for the sidewalk confusion plow4beer. It's an average size sidewalk, I'm guessing 3 or 4 feet wide by 186 feet.

I hear what you are saying BossPlow.. I don't really consider this a business in the usual sense because I'm only dealing with one business. Public service sucks, it must be better in Michigan Lol...

Hydromaster brings up a good point, I could lose the bid next year if the general manager chose to go with someone else. That's where I'm trying to play it smart and buy equiptment I can sell if I lose the contract or it doesn't work out. I'd say this is a job, because I'm not looking for other accounts. 

I would like to make money, so it's not a hobby. I already have the 65 hp tractor, 14k trailer and 1 ton ford because I live on a wooded property, and also use the equipment on a 350 acre hunting lease in northern Wisconsin for planting food plots. The plowing business is a good way to justify buying equipment to use for my hunting hobby (A lot easier to convince the wife lol)..

Ajlawn1, yes, landscape yards are close by, I think it's around $89 per ton. Not sure if that price is delievered or not. 

Thanks Aerospace, I appreciate the feedback. It seems a lot of contractor's have the same opinion as you using the rubber blades.

EWSplow I could use a bigger RT3 if you have one of those. Actually if I buy a 4wd tractor that RT2 would be interesting..


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Or maybe ole mop could hook him up with a double down bucket...


https://www.buyheavymachinery.com/about/


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> The man was a police officer..... I think just about any other profession pales in comparison in terms of bs stress. Coming from a different country, but appreciate op dealing with the worst society has to offer so I can peacefully push snow around.


 Ok...


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

WIPensFan said:


> Ok...


Granted a bit dramatic, but I'm sure it's more difficult being a police officer. There is no spring is just around the corner mentality.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

WI*FNG said:


> I hear what you are saying BossPlow.. I don't really consider this a business in the usual sense because I'm only dealing with one business. Public service sucks, it must be better in Michigan Lol...


This is why I said keep it small without many employees. You can make just as much money with less headache by doing so... I don't see your site as a huge undertaking to be honest and can be done with minimal people... Try to sign them into a multi year contract and you'll be in great shape to budget and make some better purchases...

And by the way there is nothing better in Meatchickin...


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Thanks guys, the law enforcement job was fine. I only mentioned it to explain why I was retired at 53, and why I'm choosing to go down this path at this point in my life. I was asked by this business to do this, (I didn't seek them out) and I'm doing my research to see if this the right fit for me financially or if I want to go back to working for a bank or insurance company doing investigative work. I'd prefer to plow and cut grass if given the choice.

As for the grass cutting, I will be doing that in the summer.. 10k for grass cutting and 5k additional for string trimming and there isn't too much grass. 

I'm pretty big into hunting, so the grass cutting pretty much ends when deer hunting starts and plowing starts when deer hunting ends.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

WIPensFan said:


> OP, here's my best advice... Save your money, just cut grass. If you really want to plow snow you could be a sub with your pickup and a bigger plow. Enjoy your life and don't add this BS stress into it. Trust me, it's a major PITA to do snow removal and bigger sites like these are tough unless you are properly set up.
> I sincerely hope, whatever you decide to do, it all works out well for you.Thumbs Up


What other forums are you part of....?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> What other forums are you part of....?


Why?


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

WI*FNG said:


> I'm pretty big into hunting, so the grass cutting pretty much ends when deer hunting starts and plowing starts when deer hunting ends.


Welcome to the plow site, you may get along w/ @BUFF, he knows his guns,
ammo/hunting. Thumbs Up lowblue:


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

rizzoa13 said:


> For me I'd sell the pickup truck and tractor and buy a used class 6 or 7 dump truck with an under tailgate salter and plow. Can be had for 20-25k. Get yourself a wheeled 70ish hp skid for 13-15k and a buy a 8-10' push box for a few gs. That puts your cost at 45k roundabout for your first year. You won't net anything on your first year but your equipment will be paid for, mostly, after all costs.
> 
> Skid will load dump truck with salt onsite. Skid and a 10' straight blade plow on the big truck can handle that property. You'll only need one to hire one operator for a storm and take care of salting events yourself. You said you have an ATV? Throw a plow on it for the walks and you'll be set.


That definitely sounds like a possibility. Anything to look out for on the used class 6 or 7 truck? (Other than the obvious transmission, leaks and engine problems) How many hours is a lot on a 70ish HP skid loader? In other words, what do you think 13k-15k would get me? I like that idea or the tractor idea because I hate the idea of throwing money into a lease if I can avoid it. The 2012 F350 diesel is paid for, so I'd keep that as a back up plow truck.


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Avalanche 2500 said:


> Welcome to the plow site, you may get along w/ @BUFF, he knows his guns,
> ammo/hunting. Thumbs Up lowblue:


Thanks Avalanche!!


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

When thinking about larger trucks....

Can you work on it yourself (ability, tools, space), or will you be dependent on a repair shop for even simple stuff?

Do you have a CDL? (I don't want to turn this into a CDL thread, as there are plenty of those, but it is something to consider).

You can find deals if you are patient. I know it isn't most people's cup of tea, but by way of example, I got my Oshkosh, with working 12' plow and large V-box, for $4K, with commission and shipping costing another $2K.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Buy a new v plow and v box for the f350. Spend 30k on a gently speed skid steer with a 10' box. There $45k and plenty of equipment for a 10 acre site


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Aerospace Eng said:


> When thinking about larger trucks....
> 
> Can you work on it yourself (ability, tools, space), or will you be dependent on a repair shop for even simple stuff?
> 
> ...


Wow, it sound like yougot a great deal! I am handy with working on equipment, I've had to fix enough on my 2012 Ford F350 diesel in the past two years and have a pole barn work shop with most needed tools.

Negative on the CDL...so I will need to stick with a truck that doesn't require one. I'm embarrased to say, but working as a detective for the past 23 years, I don't even know the CDL laws.....


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

WI*FNG said:


> Wow, it sound like yougot a great deal! I am handy with working on equipment, I've had to fix enough on my 2012 Ford F350 diesel in the past two years and have a pole barn work shop with most needed tools.
> 
> Negative on the CDL...so I will need to stick with a truck that doesn't require one. I'm embarrased to say, but working as a detective for the past 23 years, I don't even know the CDL laws.....


Don't feel bad...half the guys on here have cdls and still don't know the laws.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WI*FNG said:


> Wow, it sound like yougot a great deal! I am handy with working on equipment, I've had to fix enough on my 2012 Ford F350 diesel in the past two years and have a pole barn work shop with most needed tools.
> 
> Negative on the CDL...so I will need to stick with a truck that doesn't require one. I'm embarrased to say, but working as a detective for the past 23 years, I don't even know the CDL laws.....


Neither do most of the cops enforcing them.


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Neither do most of the cops enforcing them.


I agree Mark! We have one guy trained by the State Patrol that spends most of his days during the summer looking for overweight truck violations. (Those fines are huge! ) I doubt any of the other patrol guys know the CDL laws, or care to enforce them.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

plow4beer said:


> what do you mean? 62 cubic yds of 4in thick sidewalk?....because thats almost 5000sq ft of sidewalk....or do you mean 62 yds, in lineal feet?
> how wide are the walks


Only a concrete head would look at that as cubic yardage. Remember, he's PLOWING the concrete, not POURING it..........


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

WI*FNG said:


> I agree Mark! We have one guy trained by the State Patrol that spends most of his days during the summer looking for overweight truck violations. (Those fines are huge! ) I doubt any of the other patrol guys know the CDL laws, or care to enforce them.


I'm probably in your area, I quit plowing commercially last year, so I'll make you an offer: I'll sub to you with my skid steer and plow if you keep me apprised to where your DOT cop sits all year so I can avoid him........

On a more serious note, I plowed some thing similar to what your talking about for 10+ years with just my skid and 10' plow, about 6.5 - 7 acres total, cut into several lots and driveways, as well as service/fire lanes. Also did 3 different apartment lots, about 3 miles round trip for those and about 1.5 hours added to the route. Total route was about 6-7 hours with the apartments, IF I could do them when they were not running, and there were no cars, on a small 3-4" snow. If I was dealing with plowing around cars, shift changes, stuck semi's, etc...., add a few hours.

IMHO, I'd consider finding a newer larger skid loader or small wheel loader, get wings for your existing pick-up plow, and buy a new V-box for your pick-up. Also see if you can find a yard that will load you with salt pre-storm (during the storm would be even better) and do some searching here for salt rates. Going back to the 2010 to 2015 time range should give you some of the best reading on salt rates, IMO. Consider hauling your older tractor up North to your land for good so you don't have to spend so much time dragging it across the state. Last, you'll probably want to find a local subcontractor or two with pick-ups or equipment for back-up.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

WI*FNG said:


> That definitely sounds like a possibility. Anything to look out for on the used class 6 or 7 truck? (Other than the obvious transmission, leaks and engine problems). How many hours is a lot on a 70ish HP skid loader? In other words, what do you think 13k-15k would get me?


Most any "cheap" truck that size is going to be ex-municipal truck that will be over CDL. W/O knowing how cut-up the lot is (you did mention a bunch of medians) a truck that size is going to be clumsy to plow with in most cases.

I wouldn't buy a SS with more than 2K hours, and prefer farm units when I buy used due to the fact that they get a ton of idle time and don't tend to do a ton of heavy pushing or lifting.

That price range will likely get you someone else's head ache.........


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

jomama45 said:


> Most any "cheap" truck that size is going to be ex-municipal truck that will be over CDL. W/O knowing how cut-up the lot is (you did mention a bunch of medians) a truck that size is going to be clumsy to plow with in most cases.
> 
> I wouldn't buy a SS with more than 2K hours, and prefer farm units when I buy used due to the fact that they get a ton of idle time and don't tend to do a ton of heavy pushing or lifting.
> 
> That price range will likely get you someone else's head ache.........


Thanks for the great advice! I've been on Machinery Trader for the past two hours looking at Skid Steer prices. I've been searching from 75hp to 130hp with no more than 2000 hrs and an enclosed cab. It's looking like most of these are going to cost around 28-30K, but at least you are getting a newer unit with better resale.

It seems like I'm down to deciding if I want to buy a new tractor or skid steer and if I want to use my 2012 F350 or buying a used plow truck. I'd almost rather spend the $$ on another used plow truck because of the salting and I'll need a bigger plow. My 2012 could be a back up truck. If I buy a skid steer, it would be nice to have a truck with a dump for hauling salt, mulch and stone and doing some light landscaping work for friends.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Is this close? It would easily push a 10' box, and a 12' box most of the time, especially a "decent" box. Also has pretty decent tires for pavement/snow........

https://www.bobcatplus.com/inventor...199629351/2014-bobcat-s750?dlr=1&pcid=3410535


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm just gonna leave this here...


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/28968703/2006-gehl-5640
Edit: realized this isn't a turbo machine and ours is. I paid 13.5k for our turbo 5640 with 1500 hours on it at an auction.

This is the machine we use every day. It's not sexy and people on here may poo poo it because its off brand but that skid is a tank. For dirt work we have over tire tracks and I like running it better than most track machines. You aren't going to run a snowblower off of it as it's not hi flow hydraulics but you also won't need that. Perfect starter machine.

If your looking for a dump truck in class 6 or 7 you'll want something with a 57 degree turning radius. There's a few models from early 2000s like that. I know Chevy/gm and I think some internationals had that wheel cut. You can turn better than a pickup truck in those. Sweet spot for year is 2004-2007 because you aren't dealing with expensive and finicky DPF systems that started rolling out in late 07.

You've got a guy on the job that can explain your cdl laws to you, use him! Get his take on how big of a truck you can operate, unladen if you are storing salt on sight.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

WI*FNG said:


> Thanks for the great advice! I've been on Machinery Trader for the past two hours looking at Skid Steer prices. I've been searching from 75hp to 130hp with no more than 2000 hrs and an enclosed cab. It's looking like most of these are going to cost around 28-30K, but at least you are getting a newer unit with better resale.
> 
> It seems like I'm down to deciding if I want to buy a new tractor or skid steer and if I want to use my 2012 F350 or buying a used plow truck. I'd almost rather spend the $$ on another used plow truck because of the salting and I'll need a bigger plow. My 2012 could be a back up truck. If I buy a skid steer, it would be nice to have a truck with a dump for hauling salt, mulch and stone and doing some light landscaping work for friends.


If you can, try to find something pre emissions... Pre 2012 ish I believe... @jomama45 just posted one that's in an intern tier 4. It doesn't require def fluid but have heard people having issues with them. Some of the little older Bobcats with Kubota's are pretty much bullet proof... Mustang makes a large 100hp machine but get the Cummins. And make sure you get 2spd!!!


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

rizzoa13 said:


> https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/28968703/2006-gehl-5640
> Edit: realized this isn't a turbo machine and ours is. I paid 13.5k for our turbo 5640 with 1500 hours on it at an auction.
> 
> This is the machine we use every day. It's not sexy and people on here may poo poo it because its off brand but that skid is a tank. For dirt work we have over tire tracks and I like running it better than most track machines. You aren't going to run a snowblower off of it as it's not hi flow hydraulics but you also won't need that. Perfect starter machine.
> ...


If buying a skid you really need a cab with heat.


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

It probably gets much colder where he is but our cold days are like 20 degrees Fahrenheit. We just out on an extra layer of clothes. Ours has heat also, just showing him an option not telling him to get that unit.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

WI*FNG said:


> Wow, it sound like yougot a great deal! I am handy with working on equipment, I've had to fix enough on my 2012 Ford F350 diesel in the past two years and have a pole barn work shop with most needed tools.
> 
> Negative on the CDL...so I will need to stick with a truck that doesn't require one. I'm embarrased to say, but working as a detective for the past 23 years, I don't even know the CDL laws.....


The deal was too good to pass up, but it is because it was for a 44 year old truck (with 26,000 miles) that on roads required a CDL, had a main and aux manual transmission, no AC or radio, etc. I don't take it on road, and I never bothered to get a CDL. I looked into it, but decided that it was cheaper and easier to throw a local contractor $200 the 5-10 times a year I needed equipment moved than to get a trailer, insure it, maintain it, etc.

Because most people don't want a CDL, and the medical card and other hassles that come with it, they don't get one. Trucks requiring one are cheaper than smaller, lighter trucks.

You may want to get a CDL to give you more options and access to a cheaper market.

Without getting into the nuances, you need a CDL if:

The vehicle has a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of 26,001 lb. or more.

The vehicle plus trailer has a Gross Combined Weight Rating of 26,001 lb. or more AND the trailer weighs over 10,000 lb.

It is this second part that confuses most people. They think the AND is not there or is an OR.

If you are in a 26,000 lb. vehicle, towing a trailer rated at 9,900 lb. you do not need a CDL, despite the fact that the combined weight is well over 26,000 lb.

If you are in a 10,000 lb vehicle (F-350 for example) pulling a 17,000 lb. rated equipment trailer, you do, even if the trailer is empty.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

WI*FNG said:


> I'm pretty big into hunting, so the grass cutting pretty much ends when deer hunting starts and _*plowing starts when deer hunting ends*_.


If hunting (rifle season) is important to you I would be aware that big Nov snows happen. Plowing is flexible enough to allow an afternoon of hunting if its snowing but not sure how you would manage a week-long or more getaway and not stress if snow is in the forecast. As long as you have a solid guy or two that can fill in for you then would probably work out. But don't plan on that your first season. Maybe you are located south enough in WI where Nov snow is rare? I suppose with only one property and and a few pieces of equipment preseason prep is not so bad.


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

This is why you can get away with driving a 26k truck with a midsize skid on a flat trailer as long as skid/trailer weigh under 10k. To me thats your best setup as a skid and dumptruck can do a lot of work around the farm or in your small landscape business.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Landgreen said:


> If hunting (rifle season) is important to you I would be aware that big Nov snows happen. Plowing is flexible enough to allow an afternoon of hunting if its snowing but not sure how you would manage a week-long or more getaway and not stress if snow is in the forecast. As long as you have a solid guy or two that can fill in for you then would probably work out. But don't plan on that your first season. Maybe you are located south enough in WI where Nov snow is rare? I suppose with only one property and and a few pieces of equipment preseason prep is not so bad.


I was going to address this as well.

Not sure when deer hunting starts in Wizzconsin, but any time after November 1 is open season for plowing and/or salting.

I love to hunt as well, but it takes a back seat to work. Even if it is a hobby.


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

wow I just did 11 hours in my loader picked up a sandwich on the way home, sit down to eat my sandwich and read this thread, it is the hunting just had to chime in.
you have been given some excellent advice if like me in august you start to get twitchy about readying hunting gear and such listen to Mark above, you worked a career I don't need to explain responsibly to you.
for me to deer hunt it is 6 hour drive to one farm and 7 to another it has happened get down hunting for a couple days surprise trigger event happens drive home go plow.
get a sharp pencil and do what they call a pro forma cash flow, as a business idea I'm not sure the numbers are in your favour.
insurance slip/fall? 
workers compensation?
ten acre property if the snow is on the ground at 6 a.m this morning can you have it turned around 6 am tomorrow morning? what is your plowing window?
as a police officer I am sure you have done a 24 hour day more than once, ever done it in a loader? until your butt is numb and you can't sit still on your seat?
you mention you know a couple people can you trust them to show up and not be stupid when you are not there? knock over one light standard and the old profit margin is like way down.

side note a person who was away and texted me hey can you clean my driveway before I get back scrap the ice out, m like okay!
she just text not happy I did get the ice out of the ruts in the driveway, the asphalt is wore down tire tracks, my blade scraps the ice down to the top of the rut, maybe like a ripple chip blade?

what do you shoot?
have you seen the heater body suit sit all day nice warm.

best of luck.


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Chineau said:


> wow I just did 11 hours in my loader picked up a sandwich on the way home, sit down to eat my sandwich and read this thread, it is the hunting just had to chime in.
> you have been given some excellent advice if like me in august you start to get twitchy about readying hunting gear and such listen to Mark above, you worked a career I don't need to explain responsibly to you.
> for me to deer hunt it is 6 hour drive to one farm and 7 to another it has happened get down hunting for a couple days surprise trigger event happens drive home go plow.
> get a sharp pencil and do what they call a pro forma cash flow, as a business idea I'm not sure the numbers are in your favour.
> ...


Thanks for the advice! The hunting isn't a big deal, work comes first and I can hunt anytime (The property I live on has plenty of big bucks) . As for the resposibility aspect, the general manager of the company asked me if I would be interested in taking on this opportunity after retirement because of the work ethic I've shown the past 13 years working for him in addition to 40 hrs a week at the PD. (I'm actually a detective, so I'm usually sitting behind a desk) He knows I have plowed driveways for years and maintain a fairly large property with lawn care. I've worked 3 or 4 jobs my entire life, so I'm not afraid to work. (In fact I have trouble sitting still..)

You are correct, I haven't sat 11 hours on a loader plowing snow, but every spring and fall I sit all of 11 hours on my old Ford tractor plowing and discing fields to feed the deer... (My hunting lease is two farms 750 acres total in Osseo, WI).

I'm a bow hunter and the past few years in southern WI we haven't had much snow before Christmas.

I guess I wasn't expecting it would take me 24 hours to plow a 10 acre property, but understand that I could be out plowing that long if we get hit hard. This would be my only job and only account, so working the occasional 24 hours doesn't bother me at all. This time of year I really don't have anything better to do.

That's why I'm here......to get the advice of the professionals like yourself who work in the trade. I'm trying to research this as much as I can so I can be as efficient as possible. I don't plan on making any money the first year because I will be paying for equipment. Hopefully with the advice I get here, I will make smart decsions, so if it doesn't work out I won't lose my ass .

I truly value and appreciate the advice of everyone here!


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Since you personally know the manager, something you may want to do if your schedule and the weather coincide is to sit inside the lobby during the next snow event (or even next few snow events) and see how whoever does it now accomplishes it. 

They may not do it well, they may have some interesting ideas to adopt. It will give you ideas on how far you may need to push snow to make the lot functional.

Do they bring in salt? How big a salter? Do they show up full and leave empty?

It's at least some hard data - X equipment with Y amount of people get Z inches done in H hours.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Since you personally know the manager, something you may want to do if your schedule and the weather coincide is to sit inside the lobby during the next snow event (or even next few snow events) and see how whoever does it now accomplishes it.
> 
> They may not do it well, they may have some interesting ideas to adopt. It will give you ideas on how far you may need to push snow to make the lot functional.
> 
> ...


That's a really good idea.
Better yet... VIDEO them doing it.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

WIPensFan said:


> That's a really good idea.
> Better yet... VIDEO them doing it.


That's an even better idea, as long as they don't get weird if they see you videoing.

OP, Is there a surveillance system of the lot?

I find that one always sees more in a video than in person, since you can replay and look at different areas.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> That's an even better idea, as long as they don't get weird if they see you videoing.
> 
> OP, Is there a surveillance system of the lot?
> 
> I find that one always sees more in a video than in person, since you can replay and look at different areas.


See!...See!! Smart minds think alike!!!


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Since you personally know the manager, something you may want to do if your schedule and the weather coincide is to sit inside the lobby during the next snow event (or even next few snow events) and see how whoever does it now accomplishes it.
> 
> They may not do it well, they may have some interesting ideas to adopt. It will give you ideas on how far you may need to push snow to make the lot functional.
> 
> ...


That's great advice! I've already started a spreadsheet plotting all of the snow falls and times.

We have only had one 5-6 inch snowfall this year and I went down to watch them cleaning up, but they were done by 10 AM when I got there. It looks like they used a skid steer and a couple of F350 pick up trucks

I like the idea of the video. Ironically, I work security at the business and that's my main job, watching the surveillance cameras. They record everything, so it would be easy to stop in and watch how it was done each snowfall. (hopefully the cameras are working this time of year, the outside cameras aren't the greatest)

I've also been taking video of where they are piling all of the snow. it would definitely be nice to see what kind of salt trucks they are using!

I appreciate the advice!


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

I went back and read your original post, you mentioned 60k is that for the winter season or winter, summer and every thing in-between.
have they given you a scope of work for the site? trigger "
the person who spoke to you about this do they own the property? some people change jobs more than they change under wear. 
signed contract? a skid steer and two trucks with blades, lights a sander easy 6 figures I need way more than a hand shake. if you do get the equipment how reliably can you put bums in the seat on random occasions cause thats when it snows. couple years ago had two skids and 7 names on a list called folks sorry hockey game is on beers, kids sick no, farted funny can't you get it plowed 24 hours by my self slept 3 got up went more, if that is your best plan it will get tired very fast.
you mention lawns in the summer can any of the equipment help you in the green season?
did you tag this year? the covid restriction on travel shut down that plan.


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Chineau said:


> I went back and read your original post, you mentioned 60k is that for the winter season or winter, summer and every thing in-between.
> have they given you a scope of work for the site? trigger "
> the person who spoke to you about this do they own the property? some people change jobs more than they change under wear.
> signed contract? a skid steer and two trucks with blades, lights a sander easy 6 figures I need way more than a hand shake. if you do get the equipment how reliably can you put bums in the seat on random occasions cause thats when it snows. couple years ago had two skids and 7 names on a list called folks sorry hockey game is on beers, kids sick no, farted funny can't you get it plowed 24 hours by my self slept 3 got up went more, if that is your best plan it will get tired very fast.
> ...


Thanks for chiming in. Based on some of the replies, I probably should have given some more detail as to how this came up. I didn't just wake up one day and decided I wanted to run a plowing business. This business and the neighboring business are the only properties I want to cover.

I have worked for this company for 13 years running a crew of about 7 off duty police officers used as security officers during the busy time of year, which is from September through November. The general manager has run the business during the time I've been there and makes all of the decisions. The actual owners are out of state.

Sometime last year, the general manager asked what I plan to do when I retire. I told him I wanted something outdoors where I don't have much interaction with the public, such as grass cutting. That was when he presented the idea of me taking over the lawn cutting and snow plowing contracts. I told him it would depend on the contract amounts. He then explained the snow plowing would be 60 K, grass cutting and trimming 15K and a 5K raise for a total of 80K. I would be responsible for the equipment and purchasing the salt. He also mentioned that he would pay extra for a skid loader on site to move the snow piles when they get big.

I met with him last week after our first big snowfall and he reemphasized that the contracts are mine if it's some thing I wanted to do.

I am an outdoor person that loves landscaping projects the involve trucks, skid loaders and tractors. Financially, I make enough money with my wife's income and my pension where if this gig made 0 dollars, I would be fine and able to pay all of my bills without this. I still want to work to keep busy, but would prefer this type of work over going into an office each day.

I am pretty obsessed with researching something before I jump in, which is why I have posted here for advice. I think the experts here would be surprised at how much I value the opinion shared. For everything someone has suggested to me, I probably have spent at least 3 or 4 additional hours searching the Internet for additional information to gain more knowledge based on their suggestions.

I have several friends that came on the job the same time as me that are also retiring. Some of them decided not to work. They have worked with me on different security jobs and are at the chance to make some spending money during a time of year when they have nothing else going on. I also have a 20-year-old son who has several friends that are always looking to make a buck.

I don't mean to be lengthy, but hopefully that explains a little bit more about where I'm at and why. If I try this for a year and it doesn't work out, I'd like to have an exit strategy where I could sell the equipment and not suffer a loss. Hopefully this makes sense.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

WI*FNG said:


> Based on some of the replies, I probably should have given some more detail as to how this came up. I didn't just wake up one day and decided I wanted to run a plowing business.
> 
> I am an outdoor person that loves landscaping projects the involve trucks, skid loaders and tractors. Financially, I make enough money with my wife's income and my pension where if this gig made 0 dollars, I would be fine and able to pay all of my bills without this.


This may be where you're running into a bit of resistance here.

Much like yourself, I "fell" into this career path because of the love of working outdoors and creating landscapes. My education would have me sitting at a desk, dealing in corporate finance. But it never appealed to me. When the decision/opportunity to foray into self employment came about, snow was something that we offered to sustain us through the winter months. And to retain clientele year round. Much has changed since that time (20 years ago).

Most of the members here are commercial snow operators, and do this for their living. So it might be the "zero-profit" approach that some of us are struggling with. Myself, I don't really care if you choose to work for free, it might be your competitive advantage to be able to do so. But I don't see the sense in that approach. The time and dedication required to fulfill snow removal contracts is such that it should be rewarded, and profitable. There is also much investment required (as you are seeing), and those willing to make that investment should expect a return. So for many of us here, the approach may be quite a bit different than what you're outlining, only because we are attempting to secure long term stability and profitability.

I've been following the thread, and while I think I've read it all, I missed where the discussion on insurance took place. I would imagine there would be some requirement for coverages. That cost would also have to be accounted for. So with the numbers you're presenting, it would appear difficult for any of us to service the account in a profitable way. Especially without some long term assurances.

Don't misunderstand me - you are free to do whatever you prefer. I only raise this as a way of explaining some of the feedback. Just don't sell yourself short - a 10 acre property is substantial enough that there would be other interested parties. Why leave 20-30% on the table when you can put that in your pocket?


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## Daley Construction (Nov 15, 2017)

I agree insurance is a large factor in this discussion. I know with my insurance if plowing makes up 40% of my yearly invoices that my rate go up substantially.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

+Insurance costs
Employee costs/ workman’s comp

If you don’t make a profit how do you maintain
Your equipment/ business?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

With your son and his buddies, you'll need work comp as well as liability insurance and commercial auto.

Dang, Hydromaster beat me to it.


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

GMC Driver said:


> This may be where you're running into a bit of resistance here.
> 
> Much like yourself, I "fell" into this career path because of the love of working outdoors and creating landscapes. My education would have me sitting at a desk, dealing in corporate finance. But it never appealed to me. When the decision/opportunity to foray into self employment came about, snow was something that we offered to sustain us through the winter months. And to retain clientele year round. Much has changed since that time (20 years ago).
> 
> ...


Thanks, I appreciate the input! My goal isn't zero profit, I'm just expecting that the first year because of equipment costs. After the first year I'd expect profit, or I wouldn't be doing it.

My agent is working on the numbers. He is also a friend since high school. I don't have final numbers, but he told me he has another client with 2 plow trucks that pays $1800 to insure commercially. Again , he's running the numbers to have a better idea.

Obviously insurance and workmans comp is something to factor in to see if it's worth it.

I completely understand the professionals who do this suggesting a different path. I say that to people almost on a daily basis when they mention wanting to be a police officer, but don't regret the choice I made.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

You can’t base your insurance cost off what somebody else pays for two trucks.
Your clientele/type of business willmake a difference in what you pay.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> You can't base your insurance cost off what somebody else pays for two trucks.
> Your clientele/type of business willmake a difference in what you pay.


And insurance is based off of exposure...annual sales, etc.


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## WI*FNG (Jan 3, 2021)

Hydromaster said:


> You can't base your insurance cost off what somebody else pays for two trucks.
> Your clientele/type of business willmake a difference in what you pay.


I apologize, I may not have been clear in my post or you may not have read it completely. That was just what my insurance agent told me someone else paid. I am still waiting for a quote and final numbers from him. I was not suggesting at all that's what my rate would be.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

WI*FNG said:


> I apologize, I may not have been clear in my post or you may not have read it completely. That was just what my insurance agent told me someone else paid. I am still waiting for a quote and final numbers from him. I was not suggesting at all that's what my rate would be.


If you think you can handle the plowing alone and your son is doing the walks and lawns, maybe he could set up an LLC and you sub work to him.
Just a thought.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

EWSplow said:


> If you think you can handle the plowing alone and your son is doing the walks and lawns, maybe he should set up an LLC and you sub work to him.
> Just a thought.


If you head in over to lawnsite, it's been determined that Sole proprietorship is the way of the future for "small" or "super small" companies...
And with "good" insurance, you shield yourself from liability...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> If you head in over to lawnsite, it's been determined that Sole proprietorship is the way of the future for "small" or "super small" companies...
> And with "good" insurance, you shield yourself from liability...


I've seen several husband and wife teams that do quite well. No employees and less headaches. 
You do have to be able to spend almost 24/7 with your spouse though...


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