# The secret to seasonal contracts



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

The fear of the next big one. They don't want to be left out.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Word....









LOL


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## dingybigfoot (Jun 12, 2008)

Lol..
There is some weight to this statement.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Works both ways... In our area we can still see the ground when normally we have 2 feet of snow by now. 

Many of my seasonal are asking if they are going to get money back this year. 

My response, "Would you have been OK if I would have billed you more last year?" (very heavy winter last year)

In our area, it will be very hard to sell seasonal contracts for snow next year because of this winter.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

lawnlandscape;1941222 said:


> Works both ways... In our area we can still see the ground when normally we have 2 feet of snow by now.
> 
> Many of my seasonal are asking if they are going to get money back this year.
> 
> ...


I love that..."can we get our money back". You said the correct response! This is where sitting down with people who want a seasonal contract benefits both parties. I flat out tell them, your basically buying an insurance policy and nothing is guaranteed except we'll be there when it snows. We also put caps on a season then it's just per time after the cap is reached.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Brian Young;1941293 said:


> I love that..."can we get our money back". You said the correct response! This is where sitting down with people who want a seasonal contract benefits both parties. I flat out tell them, your basically buying an insurance policy and nothing is guaranteed except we'll be there when it snows. We also put caps on a season then it's just per time after the cap is reached.


So your not quite seasonal ,maybe 80% if you get a lot of snow for the season.


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## Clcare (Nov 20, 2014)

Any seasonal contract without caps is a death trap. We had 2 1/2 times our normal accusation last year. If I didn't have caps I would be bankrupt. 

Most years we hit our average and no one cares either way.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

It's not how much snow you get,it's how many times you go out.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

I have had several customers call and ask if I have forgot to send a bill...lol. No, just been very busy.
But nice of them to ask. 
Some new clients have asked if I do seasonal, or per storm, and I told them no. The only fair way is per push.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Fair is what the customer wants or chooses. My customers prefer if it doesn't snow. They think of seasonals like insurance. You still have to pay for it even if you didn't use it. Seasonals give the customer equal payments for budgeting and no surprises. We have never lost money in the 24 years I've personaly had seasonals. There has been some extremely lean years but there's also been very profitable years. The best time to sell a seasonal is after a bad winter.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

JD Dave;1943203 said:


> Fair is what the customer wants or chooses. My customers prefer if it doesn't snow. They think of seasonals like insurance. You still have to pay for it even if you didn't use it. Seasonals give the customer equal payments for budgeting and no surprises. We have never lost money in the 24 years I've personaly had seasonals. There has been some extremely lean years but there's also been very profitable years. The best time to sell a seasonal is after a bad winter.


Don't go making sense.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

grandview;1943168 said:


> It's not how much snow you get,it's how many times you go out.


I think a lot would depend on the size of the business.A one or two truck operation could absorb a bad season much better than a larger company.Or maybe not,I'm drinking right now.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

JD Dave;1943203 said:


> Fair is what the customer wants or chooses. My customers prefer if it doesn't snow.


Customers want Rolex service for sundial prices. I never let them choose. I let them think they chose.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Our customers view it the same way as Dave's. It's an insurance policy that ensures they're taken care of no matter what.

A seasonal with a cap isn't a seasonal. That's an open ended check to the contractor in a bad winter, and a landfall in the light one.

Seasonal is the only way to go, it ensures a workload that isn't overwhelming for each machine, like some per push guys end up with. They only make money when it snows, so they way over book and can't keep up. With seasonal, we don't have to worry about that. We know what's coming in and the routes are full when they're full.



Buswell Forest;1944109 said:


> I never let them choose. I let them think they chose.


And that's why Dave is clearing in one storm what you clear in 10 winters.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

we have all seasonal and this year im starting to get bothered by them. because we have bearly done anything this year, they expect us plowing and salting at like a inch when the contract is a 2 incher. i had a regional manager call me and questions why the lot wasnt plowed before the store was open and i said well your contract says 2 inches and there was only an inch and a quarter and he goes on saying if we wait till 2 inches then the cars park there and the lot wont be blacktop when he doesnt even want his stores salted. so at the end of the conversation i go so what do you want me to do and he goes well just plow it if theres a little less than 2. I wanted to go off but im new to them to be dealing with and i'll be dealing with them for a very long time so dont wanna get off on a bad note.


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## R1lukasz (Sep 23, 2014)

snowplower1 this is really bad respond to your customer, You need to make him happy , he is always wright unless hes not paying


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

R1lukasz;1944397 said:


> snowplower1 this is really bad respond to your customer, You need to make him happy , he is always wright unless hes not paying


Wrong. A contract is a contract. If it says 2 inches, you don't plow until it hits 2 inches. If you plow sooner once, and they or someone that slips and falls on their property on the next snow finds out the last snow you plowed before 2 inches, but not the one they slipped and fell in, it opens you up to a whole world of liablity.

Do what the contract says, and remind them of what the contract says. That's what it's there for. Had a close friend lose his business over a situation like this.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Why not just amend the contract per the customers request for service at a lower trigger and adjust the price accordingly?


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

What I personaly do with seasonals, is I don't give them a choice for triggers, my rule is: gravel lots get a 3cm trigger(just over an inch) and paved/concrete lots are on a .5"(just over a cm) trigger


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## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

BC Handyman;1944461 said:


> What I personaly do with seasonals, is I don't give them a choice for triggers, my rule is: gravel lots get a 3cm trigger(just over an inch) and paved/concrete lots are on a .5"(just over a cm) trigger


You plow a half CM


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Grassman09;1944471 said:


> You plow a half CM


no, half inch. Thats about 1.3cm


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

even at half inch I usually salt, but I do got a few that I drop the blade at .5 inch cause they want to try to not use salt.


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## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

If you are having trouble with customers whining about your seasonal contract on a light year, you aren't selling them correctly on a seasonal contract in the first place. Learned that myself after a few bad apples and learning the proper way to sell my seasonals. Its like an insurance policy I tell them, one that you actually get something back from! 

Also, never, ever, ever do more than what your seasonal contract covers unless they pay extra or amend the contract. If you stand your ground, chances are you will still have them as a customer next year. I have seen this happen several times.


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## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

That is still a low amount 2cm. Pick up truck blade guess would be ok buy my tractor would leave allot behind that it wouldn't be worth it.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Depending on timing of storm and temp I can plow 1" cheaper then I can salt it. With seasonals you look at things differently.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Buswell Forest;1943185 said:


> I have had several customers call and ask if I have forgot to send a bill...lol. No, just been very busy.
> But nice of them to ask.
> Some new clients have asked if I do seasonal, or per storm, and I told them no. The only fair way is per push.


I am sorry but I do not understand how it is fair to go per push. You the contractor have signed a contract to service a client once a certain amount of snow falls. You assume all responsibility should this trigger be met. You have over head costs to be prepared, and you have to be ready to service these accounts 24/7 over the winter season at a moments notice. How many pushes do you need, just to recoup your costs? If you fall below that amount is it fair that you can actually lose money. The per push contract provides them peace of mind, and removes them of all liability should it snow. In the event it were not to snow they have had the benefit and security of a contract at no cost to them. Now if you are per push and you charge a minimum of x pushes I can get it.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

JD Dave;1944546 said:


> Depending on timing of storm and temp I can plow 1" cheaper then I can salt it. With seasonals you look at things differently.


Even more so when you have plows that scrape down to bare pavement.


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## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

Neige;1944596 said:


> Even more so when you have plows that scrape down to bare pavement.


Shameless sales plug right there lol


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

John_DeereGreen;1944231 said:


> Our customers view it the same way as Dave's. It's an insurance policy that ensures they're taken care of no matter what.
> 
> A seasonal with a cap isn't a seasonal. That's an open ended check to the contractor in a bad winter, and a landfall in the light one.
> 
> ...


I knew a guy 20 years ago like this. He would sign up tons of places then scramble around at the last minute to find subs to plow. Then he would complain how he was losing money because he could get to them all and they would hire someone else to plow.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

part of the issue is when say the store opens at 7 and it had snowed 1.5 inches and now cars are parking there and by 830 it has hit the 2 inches then we come plow and have to leave the parking spaces. I don't even know why he cares really because we go back and cleanup that next morning anyway. 

I think next year what I'm gonna do is explain that the contract is 2 inches and that's that and if they don't like it, i will tell them then we can put together a1 inch contact. This isn't the only store this year that people are trying this, but with the other one is a bunch of places on one contact so if they call and its only 1.5 i get to call the companies higher up and he addresses the issue


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

edgeair;1944601 said:


> Shameless sales plug right there lol


LOL was it that obvious, I did not mention any names.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

snowplower1;1944610 said:


> part of the issue is when say the store opens at 7 and it had snowed 1.5 inches and now cars are parking there and by 830 it has hit the 2 inches then we come plow and have to leave the parking spaces. I don't even know why he cares really because we go back and cleanup that next morning anyway.
> 
> I think next year what I'm gonna do is explain that the contract is 2 inches and that's that and if they don't like it, i will tell them then we can put together a1 inch contact. This isn't the only store this year that people are trying this, but with the other one is a bunch of places on one contact so if they call and its only 1.5 i get to call the companies higher up and he addresses the issue


This will happen, but if it were a per push they would be not wanting to pay because you came before the trigger depth was met. You can't win, it' just what has been said before stick to your contract. Next year have them initial right beside the trigger depth, and should they want it serviced under the trigger they will have to call, and they will be charged accordingly.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Neige;1944626 said:


> LOL was it that obvious, I did not mention any names.


I think it's alias is the sun-edge lol, all you need is an hour or two and it's the same as salt


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

yeah it sucks, the other issue is ik everyone around us has 2 inch contracts with the exception of a few places that have the 1 inch and they go out pretty much acting like its a zero tolerance so not only is it violating our contract but it will make us look like we just didnt show up.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Don't get discouraged. It may take a few seasons to get good contracts. Mine average 10 seasons with me.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

all the contracts we have, have been great contracts. we've had these one for a long time but this year they're starting to be a pain. Part of the problem is im only supposed to be in contact with customers for service calls and complaints and my dad is supposed to handle any problems like this but he lets things slide too much


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

I have a place that was seasonal with a 2" trigger. We got 1.5" of snow then freezing rain. I showed up at 11pm, knowing it needed something done, called the property manager and told her it was under 2" but asked if she wanted service. She said she couldn't authorize it. 10 am the next morning they need me to come plow and she said there was 2" when she was there the day before and I needed to do it. I reminded her of contract where it's measured by the contractor so I was right. The deal we made was I'd do it but they needed to provide the deicing material, which I normally include in the seasonal contract. The next fall I referenced that cluster F and sold them on a zero tolerance that I still have 5 years later. I've learned with seasonals, save the headache and do zero tolerance.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

thats where i am now, hopefully that works for next year. it sure would be great to not have to go around measuring and trying to figure what to do. that way you see it snowing, you already know youre going out


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

No, I think he started out in cm converted to inches, then switched to inches converted to cm. For the paved lots the trigger is 1/2" not 1/2cm. But if 3cm=1"+, then .5"=1.5cm and not 1cm. 

I have 1" trigger accounts and 2" trigger accounts, most days we just do them all, sometimes we hold off on the 2" ones till it stops snowing.

To snowplower1, if the forecast was for more then 2" for the event, why not hit the lot before they open? For good customer relations, or at least bring that up in the conversation to amend the contract?


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

that is what i have sorta started doing, if ik it is close to the trigger and it is close to the snow being done, i'll send everyone out to start with these stores and then do everything else. this way there is like a quarter of an inch on the ground or so


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

ooops, I didn't see the second page of the thread.
all that's been covered


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

jonniesmooth;1944860 said:


> ooops, I didn't see the second page of the thread.
> all that's been covered


lol it ok, I think he just didn't read all of it & then I made it confusing by converting to inches trying to help some of you ussmileyflag

Not sure if instilling fear of "the next big one" is best way to sell seasonals, but then again from what I see from here looking at NY is that New Yorkers are pretty good at instilling fear and selling things/idea's.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

BC Handyman;1944879 said:


> lol it ok, I think he just didn't read all of it & then I made it confusing by converting to inches trying to help some of you ussmileyflag
> 
> Not sure if instilling fear of "the next big one" is best way to sell seasonals, but then again from what I see from here looking at NY is that New Yorkers are pretty good at instilling fear and selling things/idea's.


All we need to do is say Lake effect snow.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

John_DeereGreen;1944231 said:


> And that's why Dave is clearing in one storm what you clear in 10 winters.


Since it's so wonderful, I suppose you clear like Dave. Yes?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Buswell Forest;1944928 said:


> Since it's so wonderful, I suppose you clear like Dave. Yes?


I'm pretty sure he's covering more acres than us. We're right around 50 acres right now.


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

A timely conversation, last winter we had most snow in thirty years serviced driveways 22 times this year 5 so far and last week we had snow drop at 4 cm and some folk are wondering when are you clearing when it hits the trigger on the stick o truth, it is a business not a charity.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Lake........














Effect.............



















Snow.
payup


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm loving my per push lately! If I was a gambler the last 3 years or so I'd be a big winner.If I had based my seasonals on averages in my area I'd be out of business lol.We got our whole years worth in 2 storms.


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## Oxmow (Dec 6, 2006)

Never can count on snow here in Okie land and do per push only. We had snow for about 5 years in a row back in the 90's and I put several snow removals in my year round contracts. After about 3 years of no snow I had to take them out because people got the "it hasn't snowed so why are we paying for this?" attitude. That year we had 3 weeks of freezing rain and snow. They were crying because they had to pay "outside" of the contract for that.

If I had seasonal contracts with light snow I would just tell them that it's like cable. You have to pay for the service that is 24/7 but you don't watch the TV 24/7.

Nick


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

leigh;1947193 said:


> I'm loving my per push lately! If I was a gambler the last 3 years or so I'd be a big winner.If I had based my seasonals on averages in my area I'd be out of business lol.We got our whole years worth in 2 storms.


How?


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

grandview;1947443 said:


> How?


The average snowfall for my area is 23".we've hit that already in 4 storms.,2 yrs ago had the 38" blizzard,had 73" a couple years ago. I love seasonals,I had some that worked out well,but recently they are just very hard to figure.If I was a one man operation I could probably swing it.Weather seems very unpredictable the last 5 yrs or so.I bid a seasonal for a post office I do,18500$ for season,they declined and we went per push,made 22500$ that year. Tough sell in my area,but I love the concept. Seemsto work out well for you.payup


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Clcare;1943114 said:


> Any seasonal contract without caps is a death trap. We had 2 1/2 times our normal accusation last year. If I didn't have caps I would be bankrupt.
> 
> Most years we hit our average and no one cares either way.


True, i've seen in NJ, nearly ALL seasonals are one set fixed price, no caps, no underages, no refunds, no additional fees etc. If you bid $16k for the season, thats it, 2" or 200".

Last year we plowed a dollar tree i think "tiny lot, 10k sq at most", billed $12k with all the snow. This year, company across the street "a management company" has the SAMS club, 296k sq ft, seasonal price offered to us .. LOL... $13,600. Too dumb to even be funny or choke. Last year, company had a backhoe there, salt pile, and one truck most end of accumulating storms and still way behind. They either didn't know what they were doing, OR coupled with the fact its a triangle shaped big lot, can't go in straight runs for very far to get much accomplished.

$13,600 couldnt pay me for the salt or the liability alone.

Some idiot took it though im sure. Thats why we don't do seasonal in NJ, even a piss poor year like this, we'd already be at our limit before we'd start losing money on most of those accounts, to get paychecks monthly of what $700?

Oh BUT ITS GUARANTEED INCOME! Great, if you need $700 to make you sleep at night, your in the wrong business.


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## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

leigh;1948210 said:


> The average snowfall for my area is 23".we've hit that already in 4 storms.,2 yrs ago had the 38" blizzard,had 73" a couple years ago. I love seasonals,I had some that worked out well,but recently they are just very hard to figure.If I was a one man operation I could probably swing it.Weather seems very unpredictable the last 5 yrs or so.I bid a seasonal for a post office I do,18500$ for season,they declined and we went per push,made 22500$ that year. Tough sell in my area,but I love the concept. Seemsto work out well for you.payup


Then your average isn't 23". Most seasonal guys look at the last few years and adjust their average each year.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Ramairfreak98ss;1954250 said:


> True, i've seen in NJ, nearly ALL seasonals are one set fixed price, no caps, no underages, no refunds, no additional fees etc. If you bid $16k for the season, thats it, 2" or 200".
> 
> Last year we plowed a dollar tree i think "tiny lot, 10k sq at most", billed $12k with all the snow. This year, company across the street "a management company" has the SAMS club, 296k sq ft, seasonal price offered to us .. LOL... $13,600. Too dumb to even be funny or choke. Last year, company had a backhoe there, salt pile, and one truck most end of accumulating storms and still way behind. They either didn't know what they were doing, OR coupled with the fact its a triangle shaped big lot, can't go in straight runs for very far to get much accomplished.
> 
> ...


It would have to be a really screwed up lot for a truck AND a backhoe to not be able to keep up. I have 3 routes that do 2 lots that size on each route, plus salt and a few smaller ones thrown in the mix. I'd be in and out if it's anything like our lots are set up in under 3 hours.

13600 is a joke, no matter where you are unless it's Florida.


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## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

Ramairfreak98ss;1954250 said:


> True, i've seen in NJ, nearly ALL seasonals are one set fixed price, no caps, no underages, no refunds, no additional fees etc. If you bid $16k for the season, thats it, 2" or 200".
> 
> Last year we plowed a dollar tree i think "tiny lot, 10k sq at most", billed $12k with all the snow. This year, company across the street "a management company" has the SAMS club, 296k sq ft, seasonal price offered to us .. LOL... $13,600. Too dumb to even be funny or choke. Last year, company had a backhoe there, salt pile, and one truck most end of accumulating storms and still way behind. They either didn't know what they were doing, OR coupled with the fact its a triangle shaped big lot, can't go in straight runs for very far to get much accomplished.
> 
> ...


If you are in the snow business for the winter, many of your biggest costs are fixed (insurance, equipment ownership, on call costs etc). If you can't figure out how to make a seasonal work out for your bottom line, then your better off per push. A blend of seasonal and per push is best but you should be able to make money either way. Obviously a hard sell if you live where it generally doesn't snow, but should be easy to sell a seasonal in typical snow areas, especially after this winter.

That being said, you have to price it right to make it work for you. $13,600 for that, no way. When I quote businesses I give the option either way, because I work on average clearings, not inches. Inches are too hard to monitor/prove because we don't have a local official accumulation measurement.

That average is adjusted seasonally based on the last 3 years. All driveways are seasonal. That was the best thing I ever did. No more complaints over how many times we were there etc.

I have a mix of commercial. I base my seasonal price on the 75% factor of the average for commercials. What I mean is that I look at the last 3 years, (more if there is a freak year), take the average, compare the average to the highest year, and give the price 75% of the amount between the average and highest. Ie. Say the average is 30, last winter was 40 I would base it on 37.5. Then they are required to sign a minimum 3 year contract at that price. That way it is always slightly in my favour without being too overpriced to turn them away. My bills are paid even if we have another high winter. If its a soft winter, I don't lose on the per push, but I gain on the contracts. You can't just look at the here and now. I look at the long term over several years.

Sometimes, known cashflow is worth something. I know how much as a minimum I should expect each month and that is better than a maybe unknown.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

I do a lot of seasonal packages. I'm finding my averages that I base them on are holding true. Even with the crazy heavy, crazy light winters the last couple years, I'm only off by a couple pushes going back 4-5 years.

I was fortunate to receive some of my averages when I first started, from some long time plowers. Some of my numbers go back 20-25 years, and are still holding true today.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Am I missing something on the sizes of these lots your talking about? 10k sqft is the size of my backyard. 

Also that 700 a month is for what?


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

leigh;1948210 said:


> The average snowfall for my area is 23".we've hit that already in 4 storms.,2 yrs ago had the 38" blizzard,had 73" a couple years ago. I love seasonals,I had some that worked out well,but recently they are just very hard to figure.If I was a one man operation I could probably swing it.Weather seems very unpredictable the last 5 yrs or so.I bid a seasonal for a post office I do,18500$ for season,they declined and we went per push,made 22500$ that year. Tough sell in my area,but I love the concept. Seemsto work out well for you.payup





edgeair;1954328 said:


> Then your average isn't 23". Most seasonal guys look at the last few years and adjust their average each year.


That's the historical average,the last five years wouldn't affect that number much.Tough to figure regardless 70" one year,3 events the next.


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