# A Snow/Ice Control Challenge



## blam133 (Feb 2, 2004)

I work at a Semi-Conductor (computer-chip) manufacturing plant in upstate New York that presents some very challenging concerns regarding snow and ice management in the parking lots, sidewalks, hallways and inside the production line. 
The most important concern is corrosion from any type of material. Salt or any other corrosive material that's applied gets tracked inside and becomes airborn and eats the metal circuits on the chip. So , our snow management contractor can not use any type of salt.
They were applying Calcium Chloride, that was either reacting with the wax on the floors or creating an "oily" film which made the floors extremely slippery.
Then they switched to Magnesium Chloride. This had virtually the same results on the floors because of the oily film created.
I also work for a landscaper part time. We have several commercial establishments that we manage. Our #1 material used is MAGIC. I thought at first that this would be the answer to the above problems but has too many negative ingredients for the computor chip plant application. It is corrosive(salt), it has magnesium chloride(which is basically what they are using now) and even in it's liquid form, MAGIG leaves on oily film.
Does anyone know of a product the is non corrosive and does not leave an oily film ??? Help..................!!!


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## paponte (Oct 28, 2003)

Think your pretty much screwed on the melting product portion, Every product out there (to my knowledge) contains some sort of corrosive product. Might want to look into actual snow & ice melting machines, and then just applying a light layer of straight sand just for traction purposes. If I think of a better solution (after I have a cup of coffee) I will post later on.


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## ace911emt (Nov 27, 2004)

you could have the employees change shoes like Mr. Rogers?
Is this a new plant what was done before?
heat the sidewalks.
unsure others say fertilizer works (never used it myself)


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Nc3000 ????


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## pbeering (Jan 13, 2003)

The corrosion concern closely resembles the challenge the airport folks have - deicers can't eat the planes - call the local airport and find out which acetate product they are using and see if you can buy some from their supplier. Be prepared to pay a fortune - and tell the client.


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## paponte (Oct 28, 2003)

> you could have the employees change shoes like Mr. Rogers?


LMAO!!

As far as airports, I know some use pure nitrogen 46-0-0. I'm not sure about large commercial facilities.


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## Ian (Jan 8, 2005)

Airports use a noncorrosive ice melt known as Urea. It is related to fertilizer and does not corrode aluminum. I work at an airport.


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## paponte (Oct 28, 2003)

Ian said:


> Airports use a noncorrosive ice melt known as Urea. It is related to fertilizer and does not corrode aluminum. I work at an airport.


They must buy in large quantities. Most urea that you or I can buy for use as an ice melter, are usually considered "agricultural grade". This is the form you would find in most commercial fertilizers, hence the reason for using a high nitrogen fertilizer as 46-0-0. Pure 100% urea is non corrosive, and lower grade shouldn't be used in a corrosive sensitive environment.

Another product is Ethylene glycol. It is a liquid form, but honestly I have never seen the stuff.

!!DUH!! WOW, excuse me while I pull my head out of my @ss. I actually sell this product, and it never crossed my mind. WOW, 

We sell and use a product called Landscaper's choice ice melt. It contains CMA.

CMA - is Calcium Magnesium Acetate. It is the safest ice melting product in the market, Non corrosive, and safe on vegetation. Bad sides, it is expensive, and doesn't work well at low temps.

Gotcha now! What challenge? heh.


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## krland (Jan 10, 2005)

Try CMA. I have been using this with school districts in PA and some city properties as well and the tracktion and oily issues I have none. I actually used Environemlt in the past but set up this winter with a company in Bristol, PA that is an actual manufactor of Majestic Ice Melt w/CMA. Stock is not an issue. Let me know if you need a contact over there.


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## cleancutccl (Dec 17, 2004)

Ethylene glycol is antifreeze. You will probably run into more problems taking that route.


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## sir spaniourd (Jan 7, 2005)

Krland,
Do you have any contact for Northern MA. How could I get some Majestic ice melt? How expensive is that product?


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

This is probably way out of the realm of possibility, but if the company is committed to the quality of their product, and if its the type of situation where you walk in to "clean rooms" with the air purification systems and all... than they should put in heated walkways near the building and use sand out in the larger lot.


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## Taconic (May 18, 2001)

*what to use*

You could use NC3000 which does not have any corrosive properties at all and wont leave a greasy film on the floors.We have nc3000 available in New York. If you are interested just give us a ring
Taconic Maintenance Inc
John Parker
845-485-4200


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## blam133 (Feb 2, 2004)

In response to SIR SPANIOURD'S question looking for MAGIC in North Ma. According to www.magicsalt.com there is 4 authorized distributors in Ma.
They are located in Ashland, Peabody, Hanover and North Hatfield. Check out their web site for contact numbers.

John from Taconic Maint- I'll talk to you about NC3000 when we hook up next week to pick up the pusher for our Kabota...Bob from B&W (NOT Bob B.)


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## dssxxxx (Dec 27, 2005)

krland said:


> Try CMA. I have been using this with school districts in PA and some city properties as well and the tracktion and oily issues I have none. I actually used Environemlt in the past but set up this winter with a company in Bristol, PA that is an actual manufactor of Majestic Ice Melt w/CMA. Stock is not an issue. Let me know if you need a contact over there.


We manufacture Majestic Melt for NSS, located in Bristol, PA. If anyone is looking for a location in NE, please pm me or email me.

But, I will stress the following points:

1. Urea is being used in a few of the smaller airports that do not have the $$$'s to use the "now" recommended ice melter, which is sodium acetate. Sodium Acetate is being used in Kennedy, Newark, LaGuardia and the Baltimore/Wash, DC airports. Along with many smaller airports such as Logan and Westchester.

2. CMA - 100% is packaged in 25 kg bags (55 lbs.) and the cost is approximately $80.00 per bag. Expensive....yes. But, the only product that is Federally and FAA approved for use on new concrete. CMA melts effectively to +20 F. Sodium Acetate is the same price and melts to +5 F.

3. Airports and DOT's also use Potassium Acetate - Liquid and a lot of people make there own liquid CMA w/potassium Acetate for a great, but expensive liquid ice melter w/ablosutely no chlorides or corrosives.


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## fms (Nov 8, 2005)

Two things we did at a semiconductor plant that I worked at:
1) Janitors were given a power broom to push the sand and salt away from the entryways at least one time per shift.
2) Moved a shoe scrubber to the primary employee entryway.

We also discussed mandating the use of blue booties at the entry of the plant.

Calcium will make the floor finish on VCT flooring extremely slick. Do they have sufficient walk off mats? If you have a good scraper mat with 20' + of an absorbent mat (Supreme Nop) you should get enough of the calcium off before anyone hits the VCT.

Any type of acetate will be a tough sell. Chances are they're extremely conscientious of chemicals going into the drains.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

dssxxxx said:


> Airports and DOT's also use Potassium Acetate - Liquid and a lot of people make there own liquid CMA w/potassium Acetate for a great, but expensive liquid ice melter w/ablosutely no chlorides or corrosives.


Actually it is corrosive to galvanized metal, very corrosive.


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## dssxxxx (Dec 27, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Actually it is corrosive to galvanized metal, very corrosive.


Actually it should not be used with galvanized, zinc or brass compoments. But, other than those is completely approved for use by the FAA.


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## The Beastmaster (Dec 21, 2005)

*Liquid deicer*

Anyone thought about using propylene glycol as a deicing or pretreat agent. This is the stuff they use at airports to deice planes with, they also poor it into fire hydrants that don't drain out properly for winterization in urban areas. The stuff is pretty much non toxic and is even a listed ingredient in some softdrinks. When I was with the fire department we used it in the fire hydrants to prevent freeze up.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Actually it's extremely toxic to the environment. The airports had to install collection systems to prevent the runoff from getting into surface and\or ground water. Cost them millions of dollars. 

So I wouldn't recommend it. 

For the fire hydrants there's a thing called a pump to remove the water from the non-draining ones. At least that's what everybody uses up here.


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## adksnowo (Dec 14, 2005)

*Another possibility...*

We were searching for something safe and non-corrosive to melt ice dams on delicate roofs. The thing I found was "Safe Pet Ice Melter" manufactured by Quik Joe/Milazzo Industries Inc. It is available at my local True Value Hardware, although not cheap at 14.99/20 lb. bag. It contains urea and propylene glycol. It seems to be somewhat effective.  www.milazzoindustries.com


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## dssxxxx (Dec 27, 2005)

This is a C&P.

What are ethylene glycol and propylene glycol? 

Both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are clear, colorless, slightly syrupy liquids at room temperature. Either compound may exist in air in the vapor form, although propylene glycol must be heated or briskly shaken to produce a vapor. Ethylene glycol is odorless but has a sweet taste. Propylene glycol is practically odorless and tasteless.

Both compounds are used to make antifreeze and de-icing solutions for cars, airplanes, and boats; to make polyester compounds; and as solvents in the paint and plastics industries. Ethylene glycol is also an ingredient in photographic developing solutions, hydraulic brake fluids and in inks used in stamp pads, ballpoint pens, and print shops.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classified propylene glycol as an additive that is "generally recognized as safe" for use in food. It is used to absorb extra water and maintain moisture in certain medicines, cosmetics, or food products. It is a solvent for food colors and flavors.

Propylene glycol is also used to create artificial smoke or fog used in fire-fighting training and in theatrical productions.



What happens to ethylene glycol and propylene glycol when they enter the environment? 

Neither compound is likely to exist in large amounts in air. 
About half of the compounds that enter the air will break down in 24-50 hours. 
Both compounds break down within several days to a week in water and soil. 


How might I be exposed to ethylene glycol and propylene glycol? 

You can be exposed to ethylene glycol when you use antifreeze, photographic developing solutions, coolants, and brake fluid. 
You can be exposed to propylene glycol by eating food products, using cosmetics, or taking medicine that contains it. 
If you work in an industry that uses ethylene glycol or propylene glycol, you could be exposed by breathing or touching these substances. 

How can ethylene glycol and propylene glycol affect my health? 

Eating or drinking very large amounts of ethylene glycol can result in death, while large amounts can result in nausea, convulsions, slurred speech, disorientation, and heart and kidney problems.

Female animals that ate large amounts of ethylene glycol had babies with birth defects, while male animals had reduced sperm counts. However, these effects were seen at very high levels and would not be expected in people exposed to lower levels at hazardous waste sites.

Ethylene glycol affects the body's chemistry by increasing the amount of acid, resulting in metabolic problems. Similar to ethylene glycol, propylene glycol increases the amount of acid in the body. However, larger amounts of propylene glycol are needed to cause this effect.

How likely are ethylene glycol and propylene glycol to cause cancer? 

The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS), the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), and the EPA have not classified ethylene glycol and propylene glycol for carcinogenicity. Studies with people who used ethylene glycol did not show carcinogenic effects. Animal studies also have not shown these chemicals to be carcinogens.


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## Mike Nelson (May 18, 2001)

Bob,

What facility are you talking about. If it is East Fishkill, we have not had any complaints about the mag creating an oily film on the floors this year. In fact they complemented us on our application rate.

I was at Vassar Hospital a couple of weeks ago and they had a major problem with the floors being slippery.

Keep us posted.

Thanks


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

Grn Mtn said:


> This is probably way out of the realm of possibility, but if the company is committed to the quality of their product, and if its the type of situation where you walk in to "clean rooms" with the air purification systems and all... than they should put in heated walkways near the building and use sand out in the larger lot.


In the long run, this sounds like the best idea available.


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## kyle volz (Oct 13, 2005)

We do work for several airplane hangers in Louisville, Ky and a couple choices we use are CMA which was described above and UREA. Works well but slow and really slow at temperatures below 15.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I guess I sit corrected after dsxxxx's post. Must have been a good sales job on somebody's part to sell the airports those collection recycling systems for their glycol.


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## dssxxxx (Dec 27, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I guess I sit corrected after dsxxxx's post. Must have been a good sales job on somebody's part to sell the airports those collection recycling systems for their glycol.


Mark,

As each of us spends more and more time in the ice melting business, the more we learn. And I will tell you one thing..........in the ice melter business, there is no truth in labeling or advertising. Almost all the ice melters sold in this country are done through fluff and a great salesman....... All the private labels, which we do quite a few, are all rock salt, a little mag or cal, maybe some CMA and a great looking bag with a lot of fantasic claims..


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