# SIMA wants your snow client's contact info?#@%



## bartolini (Sep 11, 2009)

Please take note that SIMA sent me an email (pasted below) requesting my client's info. Wow! I was warned years ago about sneaky association members who join clubs to get your info and steal clients. Good advice Nick Corrado....Rest in Peace.

(EMAIL FROM SIMA)
Please respond on or before Wednesday November 17.

Dear John Bartolini:

In the next few months, SIMA is engaging in a comprehensive research study to determine the needs and issues that your customers-end-users of snow and ice management services-are considering when determining a snow and ice provider. We are asking for your assistance in providing names, email addresses and phone numbers of one or more of your customers to contact them about their interest in participating in this study.

Your responses will be confidential (meaning no customer contact information will be shared with SIMA). SIMA has obtained the services of Monalco Marketing- an independent research company. They will be conducting all research, including electronic surveys, interviews, and focus groups.

If you are willing to provide contact information for one or more of your customers to participate, please simply reply to this email message with the following customer information:

Contact name:
Company name: 
Email address: 
Phone number:

All information will go directly to Monalco Marketing and Monalco will contact them with more information.

Please keep in mind that if you provide a contact name of your customer, we recommend that you notify that person in advance that Monalco Marketing will contact them on behalf of SIMA. Monalco will acknowledge your referral when contacting the end-user.

Final results of this study will be shared with all SIMA members.

Thank you for your consideration.

Best regards,

Martin Tirado, CAE
Executive Director
Snow & Ice Management Association
www.sima.org


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## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

Why don't they just do cold calling various companies from various states. Why does it have to be YOUR client. 

I mean we have to so why cant they. No staples easy button just because they are SIMA.

Wasn't there an issues with a invoicing software that was made up by a large management company and was sending back your details to the mgmt co. Sounds sort of similar.


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

Why stop at names and addresses? How about adding the amount you charge for service?


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

Camden;1111532 said:


> Why stop at names and addresses? How about adding the amount you charge for service?


and you all pay annual dues to SIMA...for what? this info to be sold/given to USM? have fun

on edit...why would SIMA g.a.f.....what you charge?


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

This is a Small issue i have with SIMA....Think of who is a prominent member of SIMA???Rich Arlington..What does he own???...AGMG a National Service Provider...Pretty good way to gather info for Future Accounts..........Best part of this...You can say NO....


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

dayexco;1111543 said:


> on edit...why would SIMA g.a.f.....what you charge?


If I knew the contact name, address and amount my competitors are charging I could easily swoop in and undercut them. Not that I operate that way but I'm sure there are plenty of companies that do.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

bartolini;1111503 said:


> Please take note that SIMA sent me an email (pasted below) requesting my client's info. Wow! I was warned years ago about sneaky association members who join clubs to get your info and steal clients. Good advice Nick Corrado....Rest in Peace.
> 
> (EMAIL FROM SIMA)
> Please respond on or before Wednesday November 17.
> ...


wow I got that same exact email from that same person! What a small world!

I'm not giving them my clients phone numbers, they would kick me in the stomach!


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

keep paying your dues...does USM pay their dues? why not save your membership fee.....and just call USM's 800 # and tell them what they want to know? for the free jacket you're getting for your fee...couldn't you get one at walmart of the same quality? for less money?


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Did a bunch of posts get deleted (including my first one) seems kinda shady.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

dayexco;1111580 said:


> keep paying your dues...does USM pay their dues? why not save your membership fee.....and just call USM's 800 # and tell them what they want to know? for the free jacket you're getting for your fee...couldn't you get one at walmart of the same quality? for less money?


Are you even a member of sima?

I didn't use Daves' name when I signed up, I used Scotts'. 
Also their are plenty of benefits to joining sima.


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

ajslands;1111585 said:


> Are you even a member of sima?
> 
> I didn't use Daves' name when I signed up, I used Scotts'.
> Also their are plenty of benefits to joining sima.


no, i'm not, and i didn't even use Dave's name either...until just now...who the fug is scott? educate me....rattle off these bennies. do i need a secret handshake here?


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## JB1 (Dec 29, 2006)

don't understand the problem, just don't give it to them. There's always somebody out fishing.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Scott=grandview


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

Matson Snow;1111564 said:


> This is a Small issue i have with SIMA....Think of who is a prominent member of SIMA???Rich Arlington..What does he own???...AGMG a National Service Provider...Pretty good way to gather info for Future Accounts..........Best part of this...You can say NO....


Rich Arlington, Eh!  .....he ain't THAT big 

Theres a bigger snow company in Canada, thats operated by a guy called Dave Snyder!  lol


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

ajslands;1111599 said:


> Scott=grandview


from what i've seen on the short time i've frequented this board...is "scott"...grandview, is a highly respected member of this board. but i have to ask, is he now a SIMA God? why the hell are people spending money in memberships to push snow? it slays me....


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Perhaps some of you don't understand what SIMA is and what its purpose is. If you have questions please call me, one of the other Board members or the SIMA staff. SIMA is NOT, I repeat, NOT a contractor, nor are they out to steal your business.

This e-mail was sent out because the SIMA Board of Directors has directed the SIMA staff to embark on a knowledge gathering mission in an effort to meet an important goal within our strategic plan. We as a Board, have felt that we needed to raise awareness of the SIMA name and the CSP program amongst property owners, managers, and anyone else needing to hire a snow contractor. Through raising the awareness level, we hope to provide SIMA members a competitive advantage over non SIMA members.

Part of our plan is to do a survey of end users to find out the concerns end users have when choosing/hiring a snow contractor. In better terms, how could SIMA as an association, position its members to be a better choice to provide snow and ice management than a non SIMA member. Once this information is gathered, we expect to develop a marketing/advertising campaign to get SIMA and its members in front of the end users on a regular basis.

There are a lot of questions that still have to answered. One of which would be how this type of initiative is funded. Many of the details will be worked out based on feedback we get from end users and our members.

I would think that anyone running a business who is a SIMA member would want property managers to know about SIMA and the CSP program. It is unfortunate that too many property managers don't know about SIMA. It is equally unfortunate that too many contractors don't know about SIMA or what its true purpose is. We hope to change that over time.

This request for information is strictly voluntary. If you truly feel that the information you provide is going to be used for any other purpose than what was described in the original e-mail or in this post, I am sorry you feel that way. However, the more information we can get from end users, the better prepared we will be to get the results we need to achieve one of our strategic goals.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Why not give members flyers with info that they can include with their contracts/estimates explainig what a member of the organization is or how they are better. Kinda like having a high rating on the BBB (yes I know its easy but its recognizable).


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

why cant you do a random sampling as most polls are done? this way you are raising awareness of the SIMA & CSP credentials among companies that are and are NOT using SIMA member contractors, thereby helping SIMA and SIMA member contractors.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

There are a lot of possibilities as to how we can best achieve our goal. In the end, the direction of the project, and what methods we employ will be dictated by the feedback we get from the end users and our membership. 

This project may have several methods that we use to educate end users on SIMA and the higher level of professionalism of its members. As an example, we could do simple things like e-mails, direct mail, etc. We could also send members or the SIMA staff to BOMA, ICSC, IFMA, etc. events around the country. We could have a booth at their trade shows showcasing SIMA and all of its members. However, we have chosen to undertake this survey prior to deciding on what methods will make the most impact on the end users. What methods are chosen will also be impacted on the cost of implementing those methods. Some form of funding will have to be developed in order to have an effective marketing/advertising campaign.

This program is ultimately going to benefit the members. The better feedback we get the better program it will be.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Yes the first posts were deleted, and instead of letting it go, its being re posted. I will repeat to the best of my knowledge what I replied last time.
Wow that response is going over board. If you do not want to participate then don't. You dont have to come on here and slam SIMA. Every once in a while SIMA will come up with an idea that they will need volunteers to help them better understand our industry. They are always looking for ways to improve the professionalism of the snow industry. Did anyone on this site participate in the 2010 Financial Benchmark Study? I did, and you know why, because I wanted to help our industry. The information I got back comparing my results to all the others who participated will help me stream line some important issues I was not aware of before the survey. Yes I had to give all my financials to an independent accounting firm that was hired to do this research. No one at SIMA got to see the names and finances of those who participated. Once again they are asking for help from its membership. No one has to participate, but without volunteers SIMA will go nowhere. Its an independent marketing firm that will handle all this information. Once its all compiled SIMA with use it to help its membership understand the industry better. Get real do you really think Rich or any of these other big companies don't already know most of this stuff. I believe this information will be more beneficial for the smaller to medium size companies to better understand what goes on at larger scale clients. If you don't like something you don't have to participate, just say no. Knocking SIMA for trying to improve this industry makes not sense at all.
Paul Vanderzon proud member of SIMA


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

CSP#1;1111630 said:


> Perhaps some of you don't understand what SIMA is and what its purpose is. If you have questions please call me, one of the other Board members or the SIMA staff. SIMA is NOT, I repeat, NOT a contractor, nor are they out to steal your business. *then why the need to know what we charge? again, i'm not a member, should i be asking these questions?*
> 
> This e-mail was sent out because the SIMA Board of Directors has directed the SIMA staff to embark on a knowledge gathering mission in an effort to meet an important goal within our strategic plan. *i know i'm not a member...but were i? what is this strategic plan?* We as a Board, have felt that we needed to raise awareness of the SIMA name and the CSP program amongst property owners, managers, and anyone else needing to hire a snow contractor. Through raising the awareness level, we hope to provide SIMA members a competitive advantage over non SIMA members.
> 
> ...


dot de dot


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

I think before you start asking for companies client lists, there needs to be a more extensive plan on how this information is going to be used. We aren't just talking where info gets passed to competitors, i wouldn't want SIMA phoning my clients either. Also there is talk about giving SIMA members a competitive edge, so are you saying that SIMA contractors are better then non members? I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but SIMA had better be able to back it up, even if it means taking a stand against a national that is driving the price down in our industry. JMO


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Do any SIMA board members have ties(or own) snow & ice service companies? If so, it seems a little questionable to me. I have debated joining SIMA, but nobody around here really even knows who they are...or for that matter cares.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Much of the survey work will be done by a company we have hired who specializes in this exact type of work. They have a plan that will take a cross section of end users, conduct phone interviews, focus groups, and other tried and tue methods of gathering information. They will take this information, develop facts, figures, and make some assumptions based on the data. They will be able to tell us the who's, what's, why's, where's, and when's of the end users. This will allow us to see if our goal is even obtainable and how we can best achive our goal if it is.

Perhaps this is too much information that I have shared but some of the folks who have chosen to make negative comments about this request for information needed to know some facts before they comment again.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

buckwheat_la;1111658 said:


> I think before you start asking for companies client lists, there needs to be a more extensive plan on how this information is going to be used. We aren't just talking where info gets passed to competitors, i wouldn't want SIMA phoning my clients either. Also there is talk about giving SIMA members a competitive edge, so are you saying that SIMA contractors are better then non members? I am not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but SIMA had better be able to back it up, even if it means taking a stand against a national that is driving the price down in our industry. JMO


I have a great comment for this post, but last time I did it...it....it vanished.....the truth hurts(pocket books that is).


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

SNOCRETE,

You just made a perfect post illustrating the need to raise awareness of the SIMA name. It would be our wish that over time, all end users hire nothing but SIMA members. Perhaps this is a realistic goal, perhaps not. However, I believe we need to give it some thought and enough effort if our members think it is a worthwhile endeavor.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

CSP#1;1111669 said:


> SNOCRETE,
> 
> You just made a perfect post illustrating the need to raise awareness of the SIMA name. *It would be our wish that over time, all end users hire nothing but SIMA members*. Perhaps this is a realistic goal, perhaps not. However, I believe we need to give it some thought and enough effort if our members think it is a worthwhile endeavor.


You just made the perfect post illustrating why people should not support you.
Then you would become "in a sense" the snow industry union. No thanks....I dont need any more people/entities telling me what to do.


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

CSP#1;1111662 said:


> .
> but some of the folks who have chosen to make negative comments about this request for information needed to know some facts before they comment again.


don't immediately assume...that those with opinions 180 degrees of yours...are negative...it might in reality be yours that are?


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

CSP#1;1111669 said:


> SNOCRETE,
> 
> You just made a perfect post illustrating the need to raise awareness of the SIMA name. It would be our wish that over time, all end users hire nothing but SIMA members. Perhaps this is a realistic goal, perhaps not. However, I believe we need to give it some thought and enough effort if our members think it is a worthwhile endeavor.


So is the CSP (Certified Snow Professional) test hard? I've always wondered oh and what does it involve, and if you could pm me this info. 
Also I'm a member of SIMA too and have one question for you.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Buckwheat,

Our membership does in fact consist of contractors. Our Board of Directors is made up of contractors and vendors. Our staff is neither.

The information that is collected will be used to ascertain a number of things from the end users not the least of which is their current knowledge of SIMA and the level of interest they may have in learning more about SIMA and its many members. The survey is not going to collect information on any specific company pricing but how much price plays into the final decision is important information. It may also be important to know how certain end users like to have things bid,i.e. by the hour, by the push, seasonal plus salt, all-inclusive. There are a number of questions that need to be answered that can't all be listed here.

I understand your concerns over the confidentiality of the information. I can assure you (for what you think it is worth) that no personal information will be shared with the Board of Directors, We will only see the raw data from the responses received from the end users.

Again, this is a voluntary program. Please do not respond if you feel uneasy doing so. I can only tell you that a lack of enough good information will limit SIMA's ability to develop an effective program.


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## Lugnut (Feb 25, 2006)

As much as I support organizations designed to improve industries, I've lost interest in paying money to be able to say Im a member of this and certified to do that. In the end, 90% of customers simply don't care. What they care about is 1. You have a good local reputation and they have seen your work/been referred to them or 2. YOUR CHEAP.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Snocrete,

There is no collusion here. Be a member if you want, don't be a member if you don't want to. I believe strongly in the value of membership in the association or I would not be touting its existence. I am merely trying to make SIMA more of a household name among the end users and add even more value to those who choose to be members. Is it the right place for everyone, not likely. Is it a good place for business owners who want to be more educated and more knowledegable about the snow industry so they can be more efficient and more profitable, you bet. Is it good for you, only you can answer that. 

This is not a SIMA says organization. Unlike labor unions who do try to dictate how you do your jobs, who you should vote for, etc. SIMA is simply a trade association who is run by contractors who want to see the association do well because it helps their businesses do well.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

snocrete;1111661 said:


> Do any SIMA board members have ties(or own) snow & ice service companies? If so, it seems a little questionable to me. I have debated joining SIMA, but nobody around here really even knows who they are...or for that matter cares.


Snoecrete the board of directors is made up from the membership of SIMA. So it goes to say all of them have some kind of tie to snow and ice companies. These are dedicated, hard working members who volunteer their time for the betterment of the industry. I have attached a link so everyone can see who these great volunteers are. Its all public info, no secrets.http://sima.org/displayboard.cfm
You say you have been debating joining, but in essence don't because know knows what SIMA is anyways. Let me ask you this, if companies were asking if you were a member of SIMA, or that they will only hire a CSP (certified snow professional), would you be a member by now. My market has no idea what its all about. Maybe in 5 years they will, at least I can say I have been a member for 8 years then. I like being a leader, and only want great things for our industry.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

I think I will stop now, CSP #1 is saying it better than I can.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Dayexco,

I am not assuming anything nor do I think that having an opposing viewpoint is a bad thing. The original post on this subject was very negative and the author was more into explatives than being factual. I was merely trying to clear up some of the facts. Once the facts are out on the table you can form whatever viewpoint you wish as long as it is based on fact.

I realize that SIMA is not for everyone. I am not naive enough to think that we can all just get along. I would, however, like to propose a truce about the national companies. I am not one of them. I have certainly lost my share of work to them. I think that a lot of people feel that the nationals have infiltrated SIMA's ranks and don't like SIMA because of it. I can appreciate their viewpoint. I don't agree with it. But I appreciate their viewpoint. What I do see is an opportunity to use SIMA as an educational vehicle to be better prepared to compete with these national companies. More people should use SIMA and Plowsite to learn as much as possible to be more competitive. The snow business is no different than any other type of business. Think about the various types of business or brand names that no longer exist because someone else had a better idea. Business owners and managers have to adapt to changes or face the consequences. Bashing the nationals or anyone else may make you feel better but does not help anyone maintain their business. JMO


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

snocrete;1111661 said:


> Do any SIMA board members have ties(or own) snow & ice service companies? If so, it seems a little questionable to me. I have debated joining SIMA, but nobody around here really even knows who they are...or for that matter cares.


My thought exactly!

Does SIMA want 20,000 members overnight? 
Start a campaign against these national snow companies. They have ruined at least 50% of the market with their price wars against each other. And that number is growing everyday.
Seven different national companies have contacted me this year for local work. All ridiculous pricing and all because last year NJ got buried and many companies that had these cheap deals got burned...bad.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

CSP#1 I admire you being here and defending your position, and the position of SIMA, also I always respect NEIGE/Paul and his opinions as there are few people on here that are as universally helpful as him. I would like to point out that the response to this should be a eye opener for SIMA and others as to how bad some contractors are hurting these days. There is such a fear that the big nationals are going to finish off destroying our industry, that people are going to be universally protective of their clients. Again I think there well be a time that SIMA needs to take a stand with contractors against big Nationals (USM like)


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## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

Neige;1111652 said:


> Get real do you really think Rich or any of these other big companies don't already know most of this stuff.


Paul I do not understand this.
Why do they not talk with them about this, if they already know what they know.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Lugnut,

You may be right about property managers not caring who SIMA is. However, with a good marketing campaign aimed at end users it may raise enough eyebrows that they start to care. Until then, you may have to be OK with the fact that your membership has provided you enough educational opportunities to be a competent snow contractor and given you enough ammunition and confidence to give them your cheapest price and still make money. If you are, or were a member of SIMA, and you don't feel that your membership dues are/were worth it, chances are you did not put enough into it or had some expectations of SIMA that were misguided. It would be most unfortunate if that were the case.


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## JB1 (Dec 29, 2006)

sounds like a buch of worrying over nothing.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Is a "certified snow professional" similar to a "certified landscape architect" who has never picked up a shovel, or actually planted the plants they love to skillfully draw on paper. This is my fear, people being certified who have never worked in the field. It's just meaningless titles. Just because you belong to SIMA doesn't mean you are the best hire for snow removal. I want to know how long the meeting was to come up with the idea of calling customers..."End Users"


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Grassman,

You give Rich and the other national companies too much credit. Rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt of "knowing all", I prefer to go to the sources. The end users are going to provide us with much better data. We should not have to worry about it being tainted in any way.


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

Understanding or not my client names stay with me......


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

43 posts this evening alone, can anyone say "Holly controversy, Batman" (and keep in mind there were a bunch of posts deleted already)


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

buckwheat_la;1111773 said:


> 43 posts this evening alone, can anyone say "Holly controversy, Batman" (and keep in mind there were a bunch of posts deleted already)


and if the discussion can remain decent and civil then it can stay...CSP#1 is answering questions posed, etc. and I commend him for doing so

again, keep the comments decent and respectful and it will be just fine

thanks


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Grassman09;1111725 said:


> Paul I do not understand this.
> Why do they not talk with them about this, if they already know what they know.


I am sure they do, but let me ask you this. If the marketing company were to only survey national company clients, do you think that information will be of any help to the average member? What if the marketing company contacts clients from all the SIMA category's, all over North America, do you think that maybe the results will be more realistic, and helpful to the general membership. I would hope so, that's why I will participate.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

WiPensFan and others,

Being a CSP does not guarantee that an individual or the company that individual works for will be a better snow contractor. Nor does someone attaining their medical doctor degree or juris doctor degree mean they will be a good doctor or lawyer. In life, we have levels of distinguishing some folks from other folks. By passing the CSP test, an individual has demonstrated some minimum level of commitment and competency in the industry. In addition to passing the test for the first time, CSP's are required to obtain a minimum number of on-going educational credits. In order to obtain these credits, an individual has to have a commitment to the industry to attend seminars, the Symposium, webinars, teach classes, etc. where they accrue credits over a three year period. If an individual does not accrue enough credits within that time period they are subject to losing their CSP designation. 

I agree 100% that a non CSP, or a non SIMA member can be as knowledgeable about the industry as one who is. But, I am proposing through this marketing campaign, that over time, SIMA's members and CSP's will be recognized as the foremost experts in the industry. Again, a distinction that separates some folks from others. Is it going to happen this way, I don't know. What I do know is that SIMA has been great for me and so many others. This program may or may not take us to a new level. It may not be easy, it may not be cheap. But anything worth having is worth working for.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Michael J. Donovan;1111779 said:


> and if the discussion can remain decent and civil then it can stay...CSP#1 is answering questions posed, etc. and I commend him for doing so
> 
> again, keep the comments decent and respectful and it will be just fine
> 
> thanks


Thanks for giving the warning, because i for one want to see where this thread goes.


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## bighornjd (Oct 23, 2009)

All this 'controversy' that revolves around SIMA is why I didn't join. Almost did, right till it came down to shelling out the money, then I changed my mind. Something in my gut said i'd be better off dropping my wallet in the crapper on my next double-flush appointment. Everytime SIMA gets mentioned on this site it always becomes a big arguement between the horn-tooting SIMA members and the rest of the world. I don't see what benefit I would get from being a SIMA member. It's snow plowing. Not buiding bridges or skyscrapers. What kind of 'research' needs to be done about snow clients? People want the snow gone. They are too lazy or don't have the equipment to do it themselves, so they pay us to do it. Sounds similiar to an expensive government research study to find out why sh!t stinks. It stinks because it's sh!t. What's there to study? I'm sure this doesn't apply to everybody, but I do alot of other types of work and services besides snow, and most of them are way more involved when it comes to bidding and whatnot than snow removal. Whatever, I probably shouldn't have even bothered with this reply, but this is just my opinion. I think if an organization was really so great, it wouldn't require so much defending on the forums, it should speak for itself in terms of value. You all can continue with your "SIMA is Great, SIMA sucks" banter and I'll just go over here on the sidelines and keep my money and my clients to myself. As for a jacket, with the price of SIMA dues, I'd rather go have a nice one made with MY company name and logo instead of an organization that all my existing and potential clients have no idea what it is or why it exists because there is no noticeable benefit to them.


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## bighornjd (Oct 23, 2009)

Well it took me to long to type before I saw the warning and buckwheat's use of 'controversy' as well. lol. My post wasn't meant to be disrespectful, just my honest opinion. But if it gets deleted anyway, oh well.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

CSP1, I respect you coming on here and posting on this subject. It does interest me. 

Now I know that I may not be a CSP, or a SIMA member.....but I am a PLOWSITE member, and in about 80 more posts I'll be an addict...so that has to account for something

I just realized that these snow talk forums are SIMA's competition (but on the flip side an area to recruit)....and they are free. hmmm.


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

CSP#1;1111736 said:


> Lugnut,
> 
> Until then, you may have to be OK with the fact that your membership has provided you enough educational opportunities to be a competent snow contractor *for me, it takes no membership in a national organization that "gathers and dispels " information"* and given you enough ammunition and confidence to give them your cheapest price and still make money.* i truly don't want to give every customer i have...."my cheapest price, nowhere on my letterhead does it say... (walmarty-dayexco)*


SIMA might get me to take a 2nd look.....WHEN like others have mentioned here...look into claims made by contractors on this board against nationals....make a public judgment either way...and make us all aware of what their call is.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

WiPensFan,

The term end users is a simple way of describing anyone who needs to hire a snow contractor. It may be a property manager of an office building or shopping center but could also be a municipality, school system, cemetery, airport, or any other type of property where the snow removal is not self performed or performed in-house.

To answer concerns over customer contact information, getting names and numbers for the large companies such as CB Richard Ellis, Jones-Lang-Lasalle, Grubb & Ellis, etc. is relatively easy and painless to our members. However, there are numerous smaller, more localized management companies that would provide invaluable information for our membership. These companies could be sought out as well but with more effort. It would be easier if some of our members would simply forward the contact information for these companies. It was suggested in the original post from the SIMA office that anyone willing to participate should give their customer a courtesy call informing them that they may be called upon to participate in a survey. I would highly recommend this. Perhaps with more information since the original post, some of our members may be more willing to share their customer information. If you choose not to, I respect that. The association will move on with the information they do get.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

bighornjd;1111810 said:


> All this 'controversy' that revolves around SIMA is why I didn't join. Almost did, right till it came down to shelling out the money, then I changed my mind. Something in my gut said i'd be better off dropping my wallet in the crapper on my next double-flush appointment. Everytime SIMA gets mentioned on this site it always becomes a big arguement between the horn-tooting SIMA members and the rest of the world. I don't see what benefit I would get from being a SIMA member. It's snow plowing. Not buiding bridges or skyscrapers. What kind of 'research' needs to be done about snow clients? People want the snow gone. They are too lazy or don't have the equipment to do it themselves, so they pay us to do it. Sounds similiar to an expensive government research study to find out why sh!t stinks. It stinks because it's sh!t. What's there to study? I'm sure this doesn't apply to everybody, but I do alot of other types of work and services besides snow, and most of them are way more involved when it comes to bidding and whatnot than snow removal. Whatever, I probably shouldn't have even bothered with this reply, but this is just my opinion. I think if an organization was really so great, it wouldn't require so much defending on the forums, it should speak for itself in terms of value. You all can continue with your "SIMA is Great, SIMA sucks" banter and I'll just go over here on the sidelines and keep my money and my clients to myself. As for a jacket, with the price of SIMA dues, I'd rather go have a nice one made with MY company name and logo instead of an organization that all my existing and potential clients have no idea what it is or why it exists because there is no noticeable benefit to them.


This post brings up a interesting subject that i wish to comment on. I respectfully suggest that a organization that is willing to educate clients is a interesting concept. It would be nice to see SIMA show statistics, reasons, liabilities, and advantages to finding the right contractors. All snow contractors would benefit from customers being educated about what makes a snow contractor "good". However, i think that SIMA is far from being willing to take this on, as it is eventually going to mean taking some sort of stand against and speaking out against many of the Nationals


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

buckwheat_la;1111802 said:


> Thanks for giving the warning, because i for one want to see where this thread goes.


Well get out the  and have a  because this is going to be long!

Csp can you please reply to my PM, I'm beginning to think you're ignoring me


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

CSP#1;1111835 said:


> WiPensFan,
> 
> The term end users is a simple way of describing anyone who needs to hire a snow contractor. It may be a property manager of an office building or shopping center but could also be a municipality, school system, cemetery, airport, or any other type of property where the snow removal is not self performed or performed in-house.
> 
> To answer concerns over customer contact information, getting names and numbers for the large companies such as CB Richard Ellis, Jones-Lang-Lasalle, Grubb & Ellis, etc. is relatively easy and painless to our members. However, there are numerous smaller, more localized management companies that would provide invaluable information for our membership. These companies could be sought out as well but with more effort. It would be easier if some of our members would simply forward the contact information for these companies. It was suggested in the original post from the SIMA office that anyone willing to participate should give their customer a courtesy call informing them that they may be called upon to participate in a survey. I would highly recommend this. Perhaps with more information since the original post, some of our members may be more willing to share their customer information. If you choose not to, I respect that. The association will move on with the information they do get.


CSP#1, you are a slick "talker". That is meant as a compliment. You have addressed many concerns and issues... and my smart a$$ comments, intelligently and with class. For that, I give you props. SIMA is not for me though.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Snocrete,

SIMA and Plowsite are not in competiton with one another. I get no monetary compenastion from SIMA whatsover. I get no monetary compenastion from Plowsite. What I do get, is education that allows me to be better at what I do. There is a lot of information on Plowsite that is educational in nature and a lot that is very opinionated. That is what makes Plowsite unique and so great. SIMA is a resource that one can use to become more knowledgeable and hopefully more profitable. Nobody has to join and nobody has to stay a member once they join. There are plenty of people who never saw any value in joining and there are plenty of people who did not see enough value once they did join. The marketing campaign is designed to add value to a membership. Being a SIMA member has made a tremendously positive impact on me and my business. I believe in its value but I am looking to add further value. 

It is certainly not my intent to tout SIMA as the greatest thing ever. It is for some and will be for many to come if they want to have a successful snow removal business. Everyone is free to have a contrary opinion of how much value they may get out of SIMA and whether they want to be a member or not. I respect their ability to choose. I am not on Plowsite trying to get every snow contractor to become a member. However, as long as I am involved with SIMA, and care about the people in the association, I will try to make it the best association in the snow industry and provide as much value as the membership desires.


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## Lugnut (Feb 25, 2006)

CSP#1;1111736 said:


> Lugnut,
> 
> You may be right about property managers not caring who SIMA is. However, with a good marketing campaign aimed at end users it may raise enough eyebrows that they start to care. Until then, you may have to be OK with the fact that your membership has provided you enough educational opportunities to be a competent snow contractor and given you enough ammunition and confidence to give them your cheapest price and still make money. If you are, or were a member of SIMA, and you don't feel that your membership dues are/were worth it, chances are you did not put enough into it or had some expectations of SIMA that were misguided. It would be most unfortunate if that were the case.


I am not and have not been a member of SIMA, and do not have anything against them. Someday I may join once I look into it, however my view on many of these type organizations is that they do provide alot of valuable information and networking, however you have to pay for it when you can generally find it on your own for free. As for certifications, I also feel that these days everyone is certified in something or other, and that due to this the prestige that goes with the term has fizzled away. If I remember correctly there was a recent discussion about this on lawnsite, more specifically how many certificates can basically be "bought" and do not necessarily reflect the holder's competence. Personally I spend enough money for mandatory licenses and certifications, such as my pesticide license for the landscaping side of my business, that I am not looking to spend more money to say I'm certified to do this and that when one is not needed for your business.


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## nor'easter1 (Jan 28, 2003)

How could any private contractor in their right mind give out these details. I believe the fellow contractors this is a master list they are after and nothing more. In my area of the world no client has ever heard of sima and could care less as could I. Sima should be doing one thing if they care as much as they claim to about this industry which I doubt. Get on the phone with these big chains and explain how hiring private companies to do their lot's instead of USM's of the world and the layers of waste can benefit their organization. Back to basic's SIMA because your very existence is questionable in my mind! I support private companies because I am one!


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## JLaw300 (Jul 15, 2010)

Has, or is, SIMA working with insurance companies to show them the advantages of being a SIMA member and CSP certified? If being a member of SIMA or being a CSP has a positive impact on ones ability to perform the job (safer,better educated, ect.) insurance companies would be the first to understand and give SIMA members with a CSP designation a discount.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

I have been lucky enough to be brought up on both sides of the coin. My father has been doing small scale snow plowing for about 30yrs now. Times were different back then, I would sit on his lap as we would plow a parking lot. Then about 12yrs old he would let me do it by myself.

Ive learned alot of things along the way and have really brought my company to the next level from our humble roots. 

BUT, also being younger (24) gives me the drive and innovation needed to compete in this recent and crazy landscaping and snow management market. I joined SIMA simply for the reason that it may separate our company and legitimize our image against the growing numbers of contractors who are doing this simply for a bit of extra money.

We as contractors seem to be getting squeezed in the middle, USM, AGMG on one end of the spectrum, and thousands of fly by nighters on the other end. Whatever steps we can take to stand out from the crowd must be taken. Innovation is key to survival in these times and I sincerely hope that my SIMA membership can help me do that.

I just wanted to give my viewpoint on why I joined as there are many on here that are hesitant to do so. I am by no way stating that this is a universal reason, just the one that motivated my membership the most. I still have some worries regarding the influence of Nationals and SIMA and hope that a coalition of contractors, from those making 20K to 1mill or more, can educate clients that the approach Nationals take is not only inefficient, but harmful to our industry and the well being of the client.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

I think organizations that help you stand out such as SIMA have too much competition in the form of the internet. Simply googling a company will tell you everything you need to know about hiring them or not. 

Google turns up search results with reviews posted by users, or there are such websites as "angie's list" that are starting to take off as well that include ratings and reviews from actual customers. The "end users" see this as a much better indicator as to how good a company is/will be than a patch or sticker on their jacket ever will. On top of that, word of mouth always has been and always will be the best form of advertising. 

Unfortunetly I don't see any huge benefits of using an organization such as SIMA to "stand out" from the crowd. The work and services provided on a consistant basis will. 

Like others have said, until an organization such as this represents the "little guy" rather than both parties, they won't gain popularity from a lot of the people on this site and in this industry. Asking for the personal information that so many have worked day in and day out for as a marketing project is just another black eye for SIMA IMO.

Its like walking through the mall and seeing that new Ski Doo saying "enter to win" but by doing so you'll be contacted by about 1,000 marketing companies...we all know what happens when these marketing companies get information and "say" they won't give it to a third party.


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## Martin Tirado (Sep 23, 2008)

Good Morning, this is Martin from SIMA. I authored the letter/email that was sent out. Thanks CSP#1 for clarifying a few things.

Here's a few points I'd like to make:
I called the original poster of this thread to explain what this project is going to do. He sent our researcher two emails with profanity and acknowledged the phone message. I still haven't gotten a phone call back. I'll explain the situation here, or via phone, but when you don't give a person a chance to discuss the situation and your only reaction is a profane email that tells me (and this audience) something. I consider myself professional and I would never respond in to any request in that regard.

Next, CSP#1 explained this study best, so I won't go into further detail except to say the contacts we are looking for are anonymous/confidential (as clearly stated in the email) and are only compiled by our researcher who does not have the authority, nor will he use a customer list for selling or any other purpose besides getting feedback from end-users of snow and ice services on how you/contractors can interact and market to them more effectively. This request is also entirely optional, if you don't want to provide information then that's fine. No harm done.

This idea of using some SIMA member customers as participants was created by a group of contractors, not just a staff idea. Yes, we could cold call some property owners/managers, but it's hard to get the right people involved in the study and even interested. If you get the wrong people the study won't be as useful. We do know for sure that SIMA member customers are exactly the group we want to use in this research and in many cases they have an inherent interest in participating in such a survey. Cold calling often takes a lot of time with very little success.

To keep this somewhat brief, there's no "smoking gun" here in regards to SIMA. We exist because of great dues paying members who are committed to professionalism in the industry. Every day myself and the staff at SIMA work on a very simple principal, that is "how can we serve and increase the business effectiveness of SIMA members and really the snow contractor industry in general". We aren't perfect and we make some mistakes, but there's no ulterior motive here and the lack of basic trust is a difficult one for me to understand. I agree that trust is earned, but I don't see where SIMA has lost that trust with contractors. Again, you may not agree with everything we do, or think we should be doing more/less/something different, but SIMA has served this industry well over 14 years. If we hadn't there would not be an association.

In the meantime, we'll not send the request in dispute here out to more members (not all members have received it yet) because this obviously struck a cord with at least one person.

I'm available either on this forum, via email or phone at 414-375-1940 (www.sima.org) whenever you would like to discuss.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

Besides dues what is the main source of income for SIMA? 

Is there a list of names of ALL of their management and money partners?


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

Martin - I'm a SIMA member and I love the professionalism you bring to this board every time you post. However, the one thing that I would like to see you clarify is SIMA's view of national service providers. I read the statement you had in one of the previous issues of Snow Mag but I don't think it was enough. You should dedicate several pages of an upcoming issue to clearly lay out SIMA's stance on the topic. I want to know what side of the fence you are on.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Camden;1112235 said:


> Martin - I'm a SIMA member and I love the professionalism you bring to this board every time you post. However, the one thing that I would like to see you clarify is SIMA's view of national service providers. I read the statement you had in one of the previous issues of Snow Mag but I don't think it was enough. You should dedicate several pages of an upcoming issue to clearly lay out SIMA's stance on the topic. I want to know what side of the fence you are on.


Sorry to tell you this, you won't get a great response from this IMO, i have posted many well thought out quesitons concerning Nationals on this thread, on the True North thread, and of course the mysterious USM (we are going to address all this as soon as the legal department looks it over AND the rep never came back) thread, no one wants to address this, which is too bad, because you would think a organization like SIMA (whos major make up of members is likely NOT nationals) would want to make some comments, beyond "this is the direction our industry is heading"


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Reaper,

Let me clarify this for you and anyone else with concerns. SIMA is an association. It is made up of contractors, vendors, school and municipal employees, etc. whose interests lie in becoming more educated in the area of snow and ice management. SIMA is not a business. It is a non-profit trade association. There are no stake holders of any kind hoping for a return on an investment. Funding to run the association is derived from annual dues paid by members, sales of educational materials, fees paid for educational seminars and webinars, sales of SIMA apparel, and registration fees to attend our largest event - the annual Symposium as well as our vendors to exhibit on the trade show floor. No one individual or one company has any more importance or value than another. SIMA has a Board of Directors that is elected by the general membership during its annual meeting on the first night of the Symposium. The Board of Directors is charged with the responsibility of setting the overall goals of the association and overseeing the Executive Director whose job it is to direct the remainder of the staff and to implement programs that help meet our goals. 

SIMA was formed some 13-14 years ago in an effort to raise the professionalism of the industry. Too many people thought that snow plowers were just a bunch of cowboys with a truck. Much of that mentality has changed over the years due to the influence of SIMA and its membership. However, there is still much work to do.

SIMA exists because a growing number of contractors over the years have wanted to learn more about the industry. These contractors have sought out ways to educate themselves over the years and were fortunate enough to have come across SIMA. SIMA's main purpose is to be a resource for information gathering. Through a series of educational opportunities, and readily available video's, pamphlets. and SIMA's own website, members can become more prepared to compete in today's business climate. In addition to the formal educational opportunities, the networking that goes on at many of these events can be priceless. Often times, you can learn about policies and procedures implemented by others that can make a huge difference in how you may run your business. People are open to talking about their businesses at these events much like they do on Plowsite.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

Camden and Buckwheat,

As a trade association, SIMA does not favor one type of company over another. No one company or one individual has any more rights or privaleges through their membership than any other. SIMA does not, and can not discriminate against anyone who wishes to be a dues paying member.


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## Martin Tirado (Sep 23, 2008)

I'll post SIMA's position or statement in regards to national companies. We have authored some articles in Snow Business on this, but the main thing we are doing is education. Education meaning providing some education and information on what to know when working for national or regional companies. Keep in mind, the movement towards national/regional companies is a market trend driven by end-users of your services. Of course there's alot of factors involved, no doubt including cost.

In regards to this statement:
_Its like walking through the mall and seeing that new Ski Doo saying "enter to win" but by doing so you'll be contacted by about 1,000 marketing companies...we all know what happens when these marketing companies get information and "say" they won't give it to a third party_
*Maybe our email came across like these companies, but this is absolutely not what it is. When you sign those 'enter to win' contests, have you read the fine print? It specifically states they will share your information. In this case SIMA will not, as was stated in the message.*


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Correct SIMA may not but you are employing a marketing company to get this personal information and provide it to SIMA. Its the marketing company who will sell of this info to whomever wants it.


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

SIMA can't be involved trying to be judge and jury every time a member thinks they have been "wronged" by another company, even if that other company is a SIMA member. The best thing SIMA can do is to work hard to keep providing updated information, new educational opportunities, and constant dialogue on how best to deal with these national companies and anything they bring to the industry.


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## ERWbuilders (Oct 5, 2010)

I know one thing, i WONT pay to be something i already am. I consider myself a snow and Ice professional, considering the facts of when it snows...PLOW when theres ice....Salt...watch out for idiots and obstructions and there you have it.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

And here is where (as far as i am concerned) the folly of this line of thinking is, SIMA is wanting to put together information in regardes to bidding, and concerns of clients to better educate people, and to better serve its members. How well that information be used? I wouldn't want to contribute any information that is going to "Help" Nationals screw up our industry any more then they already have. This isn't about picking on one company over another, or someone being "wronged" this is about what SIMA is doing to help fix our industry (as a whole). CSP#1 you commented that you would hope that every client would look for a contractor that was a SIMA member, what if that contractor is a HACK? My point is this, as a organization SIMA is supposedly for the betterment of the snow and ice industry, if so, then you are at some point going to have to have a opinion for/against what Nationals are doing to our industry. Is it good or bad for the snow industry? How does a contractor deal with a National that is doing a Reverse Auction? I guess what I am saying is that a organization that accepts members with a additude that they are working against what the organization stands for, is kind of defunct, isn't it? Kind of like a Baptist joining the hierarchy of the Catholic church? To put it another way, as far as I know, there has never been a company that has done a Reverse auction for snow removal where i am at, and i would like to keep it that WAY!!!


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## Martin Tirado (Sep 23, 2008)

Plowguy43 - We have a contract with the marketing company (it's really a one person operation) that he can't use the information he obtains to sell, promote, etc.. If he did anything with the info. he obtains that SIMA didn't approve (re-selling the info would not be approved by us) he would be in breach of contract.

Here's a good start for the national service company position:
http://goplow.com/business/paying-the-price.html

I'll post our position in a bit, there's both a shorter and longer version. I'm trying to condense it for this site.


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## Martin Tirado (Sep 23, 2008)

Buckwheat and others, I'd like to explain a few things to show that the answer isn't easy in regards to the national management company issue.
1) SIMA cannot just tell people/boycott/ national companies for legal reasons.
2) Not all contractors agree that all national companies are bad.

Let me explain. 1) If SIMA were to advocate a boycott of national companies, we would be in violation of free trade and those companies could sue SIMA and we would be found at fault. There's several precedents in the association industry that prove this. The financial penalties for being found at fault would bankrupt SIMA. If you want all the details, I can share the portion of the Association Law Handbook that deals with restriction of trade.
2) In spring of this year SIMA conducted a survey through Snow Business magazine of companies and their opinions of national companies. Well over 100 responses and the results were mixed. There were just as many companies who were satisfied working with national companies as there were people who didn't like them. You can criticize these companies who have good relationships with nationals all you want, but I personally know several successful snow companies that have good relationships with nationals and do good business with them.

On forums such as these, be mindful that there's plenty of people who don't agree with the positions of others on issues, yet don't respond or have time to be on a forum like Plowsite.

Also, here: http://goplow.com/business/piecing-it-all-together.html

and here: http://goplow.com/business/national-service-management-does-your-complaint-have-weight.html


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

If the information is sold and the contract is breached will SIMA sue the marketing company?


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Martin Tirado;1112337 said:


> Buckwheat and others, I'd like to explain a few things to show that the answer isn't easy in regards to the national management company issue.
> 1) SIMA cannot just tell people/boycott/ national companies for legal reasons.
> 2) Not all contractors agree that all national companies are bad.
> 
> ...


So much to say, and so little time!!!


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## Martin Tirado (Sep 23, 2008)

Plowguy - Yes, absolutely. But I do trust him as a provider and am confident he wouldn't do that. That's not the business the company is in, they're a research firm.


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## Martin Tirado (Sep 23, 2008)

Buckwheat, I agree....alot to say and lacking in time. Again, knowing this will get beat up, here's SIMA's position statement:


SIMA’s values in relation to the emergence of national and regional service management companies are outlined below.
In regard to National and Regional service management companies:
1)	These companies represent a growing segment of the private snow and ice market, and will be treated as an integral part of the evolution of the snow and ice management industry.
2)	National and regional service management companies provide a needed service for many corporations, franchises, and organizations in the form of consolidated billing & management, streamlined procurement, and contract efficiency. 
3)	SIMA expects all national and regional service management companies to serve clients with the full intent to offer safe, efficient snow and ice management services.
4)	SIMA expects all national and regional service management companies to treat all subcontractors with respect, and view them as an integral part of their ability to deliver quality service. 
5)	SIMA will communicate to the industry the association’s Ethics Policy and Ethics Complaint process, as an avenue for SIMA members to log grievances against companies who do not conduct themselves in an ethical and transparent manner.
6)	SIMA encourages the use of fair, equitable contracts between national/regional service management companies and subcontractors. Fair and equitable includes the sharing of risk, protecting profits of both the local service management company and the subcontractor, and open and honest communication.

In regard to the Local Service Management Company or Local Subcontractor:
1)	Local Service Management Companies and subcontractors are the foundation on operations performing the actual work of snow & ice management for communities across North America.
2)	SIMA is dedicated to developing and cultivating a series of educational programs and certifications designed to create an occupational strategy for the industry, including an accreditation program for snow management companies, Certified Snow Technician designations, and Certified Snow Professional designations.
3)	SIMA expects all local service management companies to operate with the full intent to offer safe, efficient snow and ice management services.
4)	SIMA encourages all local service management companies and subcontractors to have legal counsel review any contracts before signing with a national or regional service provider.
5)	SIMA encourages all local service management companies and subcontractors to implement systems in their businesses that ensure contract obligations are met with national/regional service management companies (paperwork submitted, accurate invoicing, etc.).
6)	SIMA will provide an avenue for grievance via the associations Ethics Complaint Process, and work toward achieving a sound and fair resolution of direct member-to-member conflicts. SIMA makes no guarantee of resolution and takes on no liability as an association for this service.
7)	SIMA encourages any local service management company and subcontractor to pursue resolution through the justice system for situations where local contractor feels the national/regional service management company is in breach of contract or has broken the law in some fashion.

For the property/facilities management industry
1)	SIMA views snow and ice management in the context of strong customer service and responsiveness, appropriate documentation and recordkeeping, proper insurance coverage at all times, educated bidding & sales processes, and safe and efficient clearing of snow and ice performed to a contractual scope of work description.
2)	SIMA remains independent in the contracts and bidding process for companies competing for work.
3)	SIMA establishes best practices, not legally or contractually binding information. Any grievances brought forth by customers of SIMA members will need to take the proper course of action through SIMA’s Ethics Complaint Process.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

So SIMA can't give a opinion about National's buisness practices? I don't remember seeing anyone in this thread suggesting SIMA tell anyone to boycott Nationals (if i am wrong in this please correct me). However I think that as part of your education of snow and ice companies, you should include a comprehensive look at Nationals contracts, bring out points that should be of some concern to the average contractor (and even go as far as to say you disagree with some aspects of a contract). I also don't disagree that some people do work for nationals and do fine by them (we have two nationals we do work for too), but really, some of these Nationals are very two faced in how they are targeting contractors. The one thing i do agree with is that contractors need to be better educated, so that they can see certain Nationals for what they are. 

I would love to see the portions of law you are refering to, concerning free trade, etc. I wonder though if giving your opinion about said buisness practices falls under that. If that was the case, wouldn't people/organizations be sued for it all the time?!?!


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Martin Tirado;1112353 said:


> Buckwheat, I agree....alot to say and lacking in time. Again, knowing this will get beat up, here's SIMA's position statement:
> 
> SIMA's values in relation to the emergence of national and regional service management companies are outlined below.
> In regard to National and Regional service management companies:
> ...


 HOLLY SH!T !!!!! this is exactly what i was looking for. No kidding, Im impressed. Now if you wish me to fall over dead in SHOCK, lets see how many people on here can go through SIMA's Position Statement, and see that if this is SIMA's official statement of conduct, that SIMA has already taken a stand against the buisness practices of some Nationals.

WRITTEN IN RED SO THAT HOPEFULLY EVERYONE READS THIS, I WOULD HOPE THAT INSTEAD OF PICKING APART SIMA'S STATEMENT - THAT PEOPLE WOULD LOOK FOR CONSTRUCTIVE WAYS TO SHARE THEIR IDEAS ABOUT THE IDEALS OF THIS STATEMENT IN A MANNER THAT SHOWS YOUR CONCERNS WITHOUT A) GETTING THIS THREAD DELETED B) DOESN'T COMPLETELY TEAR DOWN AND DISRESEPCT A PERSON OR ORGAINZATION THAT WAS AS BOLD AS TO PUT THIS HERE TO BEGING WITH


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## Martin Tirado (Sep 23, 2008)

For the look at contracts, Darryl Beckman has addressed this in the article I linked above. The same thing with the other links I provided to you. What you mentioned is exactly what we have been doing....providing information on what to be aware of in contracts with nationals.

For the association anti-trust, the reference is here: http://www.asaecenter.org/wiki/?page=Antitrust Laws


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## NW Snow Removal (Oct 12, 2007)

CSP#1;1112259 said:


> Camden and Buckwheat,
> 
> As a trade association, SIMA does not favor one type of company over another. No one company or one individual has any more rights or privaleges through their membership than any other. SIMA does not, and can not discriminate against anyone who wishes to be a dues paying member.


which is why anyone can join. If you are a SIMA member you really aren't much different than a non SIMA member. you just paid 'dues'. Not everyone should be able to join. then maybe being a member would mean something. We like SIMA because of the convention, but other than that most clients could care less since it is SUPER easy to become a member. A CSP is even something that isn't given too much of consideration, considering it only takes a few hours of studying to pass. It's not like a college degree, which is far more important in real world applications. It doesn't help that the national companies are glorified at the convention either. They are doing a dis service with their lowering of the prices nationwide and causing subs to not only break their banks to be a service partner, but also taking all the risk if something bad happens.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Thank you for your responses, you have changed my original thoughts about all of this.


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

Martin Tirado;1112353 said:


> Buckwheat, I agree....alot to say and lacking in time. Again, knowing this will get beat up, here's SIMA's position statement:
> 
> SIMA's values in relation to the emergence of national and regional service management companies are outlined below.
> In regard to National and Regional service management companies:
> ...


this is what's expected but how does it get enforced? We are all nice Guys and follow all the rules.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

nor'easter1;1112070 said:


> How could any private contractor in their right mind give out these details. *I believe the fellow contractors this is a master list they are after and nothing more.* In my area of the world no client has ever heard of sima and could *care less as could I*. Sima should be doing one thing if they care as much as they claim to about this industry which I doubt. *Get on the phone with these big chains and explain how hiring private companies to do their lot's instead of USM's of the world and the layers of waste can benefit their organization*. Back to basic's SIMA because your very existence is questionable in my mind! *I support private companies because I am one![/*QUOTE]
> 
> Are you for real? SIMA is an association of snow plowers with 1600 members, what do they need a master list for? How would that benefit the membership? Its so easy to say things on an open forum, but do have anything to back up your accusations? You don't believe in SIMA and that's ok, have you ever been a member? Have you ever volunteered, or done something to improve this industry? I challenge anyone who has never been a member to join SIMA and volunteer on one of its many committees. If after a year, you still believe that SIMA does nothing to improve the professionalism of our industry, does not help educate its members, is just there for a master list to serve the few instead of the many. I will personally refund your membership fee. I too am a private company, so whats in it for me being a member if what you are saying is true? I have been doing snow for 32 years now, its a very fractured industry. I am hoping to do my part to help it become a stronger more professional industry. I really don't need to do anything anymore, I can continue for another 7 years and just get out. Fortunately I am proud of what our company has accomplished, and would like to help others succeed and feel proud also. I have only been a member for the last 3 years, and I know that there were problems before I joined. I have learned not to live in the past, but learn from it. SIMA is all there is, its at least something to improve our industry. Get in and make a difference, at least you can say you tried. The other option is for there to be nothing, that's just not ok with me. Join or not that's ok either way. Knocking down the only credible association, to improve our industry, I just don't understand.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

The terms "Improve Our Industry" has been tossed around a lot, not just by Neige, but others as well. Seems this industry has gone backwards in several key areas: Pricing, available quality labor force, costs associated with doing business has gone up ( insurance, gas, rules & regulations, taxes...and so on.

Feel free to list the top 3-5 improvements within the snow removal industry directly resulting from the creation of SIMA.


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## nor'easter1 (Jan 28, 2003)

Neige, I appreciate the fact that you question the way I feel about my post. I believe snow removal services are up to each individual company. I am not a closed mind person I just wonder where the heck the loyalty in this business has gone. Realistically over the last five years as countless others have said it's been cut throat and cheapest of everything. I do not put this blame on the contractors it is the person on the other side who pays the bill. I would shovel some of my lots with a tooth brush if I had to or felt in the end there was that level of loyalty and professionalism in snow removal. My opinion unfortunately is there is not and we all have to continually get stress headaches in the fall wondering who's chopped us now. If Sima has the magic pill that shows customers the value of our butts out there doing the best we can storm after storm then I will join. I love the winter season and have a company of personnel that love it to. I guess I am just very protective of what little piece of this pie I still have, and doing it profitable.


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## Martin Tirado (Sep 23, 2008)

WIPens Fan: I'm biased but I'd love to hear what some SIMA members say about this question:
_*Feel free to list the top 3-5 improvements within the snow removal industry directly resulting from the creation of SIMA.*_

Rhetorically, what product has ever been created that has helped someone? Examples: Email. Everyone uses them now but it's led to less productivity in the workplace. We should get rid of all email. I listen to music via an iPod. The first one I bought cost $200 and $1 per song. My Sony Walkman with cassettes cost $25. iPods have been nothing but bad because they cost more. We put a man on the moon. That has led to more space exploration costing taxpayers billions of dollars. Space exploration has never done anything to change my life except use more of my tax contributions which lowers my income. See where this could go? I'm only saying this because the way the question is framed it requires different thinking than just a knee jerk reaction.

Having said that, the answer to your question just starts with SIMA being an education based association. Taking all the programs, Symposiums and training we have done, improvements within the industry have been:
Providing tools to thousands of contractors on how to be more successful so they don't have to go through the same trial and errors that some contractors have.
Trained thousands of people through educational tools to operate snow and ice equipment more effectively, saving probably millions of dollars collectively in lost wages, damages, to property, slip and fall cases, etc..
Provided insurance resources and referrals to companies willing to provide necessary insurance coverage to companies, many companies would have otherwise been out of business through slip and fall litigation because of little to no insurance coverage.
Provided forums where thousands of business owners could see and learn new technology tools and equipment to improve their operations and company management.
Provided resources of sample contracts and production rates to thousands of contractors who didn't know where to start with having a quality contract with a customer.

I could go through all the educational offerings SIMA has conducted over the years which I know members have benefited from as they have told us as such.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

You know what I think is funny....guys who are not a SIMA Member are the first to bash it, then would be the first to whine and complain if SIMA came out with the latest and greatest snow widget and they were left out. No one has ever said SIMA was the end all be all for snow plowing. I've been plowing for 15ish years and there were some things I already knew after browsing through many articles from SIMA, there was also a bunch that I didn't know and used them this year and made bidding and general business much easier. As far as a list of customer's......If your a Member and don't feel comfortable in doing so, then ya know what? don't do it. I think its absolutely ridiculous that a business owner would not like to take advise of any type from some of the most successful guys in the business. I guess when this is an extracurricular activity for some, things like that just don't mean anything.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Cedar Grounds;1112408 said:


> this is what's expected but how does it get enforced? We are all nice Guys and follow all the rules.


X2 i also very much was impressed with this statement, however i also wonder what inforcement of some of these rules means for SIMA (and again i well say, so far the answers have been very fruitful in changing my mind about how i view SIMA as a organization, and i think that SIMA is doing something very good being in this thread right now)


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Brian Young;1112564 said:


> You know what I think is funny....guys who are not a SIMA Member are the first to bash it, then would be the first to whine and complain if SIMA came out with the latest and greatest snow widget and they were left out. No one has ever said SIMA was the end all be all for snow plowing. I've been plowing for 15ish years and there were some things I already knew after browsing through many articles from SIMA, there was also a bunch that I didn't know and used them this year and made bidding and general business much easier. As far as a list of customer's......If your a Member and don't feel comfortable in doing so, then ya know what? don't do it. I think its absolutely ridiculous that a business owner would not like to take advise of any type from some of the most successful guys in the business. I guess when this is an extracurricular activity for some, things like that just don't mean anything.


Brian, take a deep breath, lol. For the record, i think there are a couple people (i am one) who are bringing up very valid concerns/thoughts, and i am being swayed towards SIMA not against it. I wouldn't give my clients info out anyways, and that is a personal choice on my behalf. As far as SIMA bashing, the one time poster/bashers, well be seen for what they are.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

buckwheat_la;1112582 said:


> X2 i also very much was impressed with this statement, however i also wonder what inforcement of some of these rules means for SIMA (and again i well say, so far the answers have been very fruitful in changing my mind about how i view SIMA as a organization, and i think that SIMA is doing something very good being in this thread right now)


agreed, kinda glad to come home 2nite to see it where its at......I know its been alot of work for the mods:laughing:......but I actually think they are trying really hard to keep it going!!!:salute:


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

WIPensFan;1112430 said:


> The terms "Improve Our Industry" has been tossed around a lot, not just by Neige, but others as well. Seems this industry has gone backwards in several key areas: Pricing, available quality labor force, costs associated with doing business has gone up ( insurance, gas, rules & regulations, taxes...and so on.
> 
> Feel free to list the top 3-5 improvements within the snow removal industry directly resulting from the creation of SIMA.


Wasn't bashing with this post. Thought it would be interesting to find out what various people thought were the top improvements.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Sima membership = $130. The friends and knowledge gained from Sima priceless. If you ever go to a symposium you'll understand what I mean. I don't agree with everything Sima does but that's life. I think Martin and CSP#1 have shown what type of people are at Sima.


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## bartolini (Sep 11, 2009)

Plowguy
Yes the first few posts got deleted due to some ny slang. I reposted and all is kosher again.


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## bartolini (Sep 11, 2009)

SIMA is a directory a snow plow contractor pays to be in so that his contact info will get sold to nationals looking for newbie low bidders. If you join u r fueling the downfall. It might have started with academic intentions, but the system has corrupted it.


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## bartolini (Sep 11, 2009)

Lol...okay let's do away with email because it is such a waste. And that darn NASA has only developed the basis of most of our daily techonologies...and darn Apple Computer Company made our cassette players obsolete. Phooey to all these new fangled widgets, we were better off in the old days with no vaccinations and only the strong survived! What the heck?


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## bartolini (Sep 11, 2009)

Is USM A member of SIMA?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

buckwheat_la;1112590 said:


> Brian, take a deep breath, lol. For the record, i think there are a couple people (i am one) who are bringing up very valid concerns/thoughts, and i am being swayed towards SIMA not against it. I wouldn't give my clients info out anyways, and that is a personal choice on my behalf. As far as SIMA bashing, the one time poster/bashers, well be seen for what they are.


No one is getting excited here,lol No need to take a deep breath. I'm just saying, thats usually what happens and the fact that I did get a lot of great info.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

bartolini;1112730 said:


> Plowguy
> Yes the first few posts got deleted due to some ny slang. I reposted and all is kosher again.


So thats what they call NY slang, nice.


bartolini;1112737 said:


> SIMA is a directory a snow plow contractor pays to be in so that his contact info will get sold to nationals looking for newbie low bidders. If you join u r fueling the downfall. It might have started with academic intentions, but the system has corrupted it.


Really and you know this as a fact?


bartolini;1112781 said:


> Is USM A member of SIMA?


Yes they are, and so are 1599 other members. I seem to recall lots of members from this site being contacted by nationals who are not members of SIMA. Maybe the members of SIMA are picking which ones they want to work for, and saying no to the unreasonable ones.


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## GLLLC (Jan 13, 2004)

CSP#1;1112247 said:


> SIMA was formed some 13-14 years ago in an effort to raise the professionalism of the industry. Too many people thought that snow plowers were just a bunch of cowboys with a truck. Much of that mentality has changed over the years due to the influence of SIMA and its membership. However, there is still much work to do.


I have been a SIMA member before most contractors knew what SIMA was. I will clarify the actual truth about the above statement. SIMA was really formed by John Allen as well as a few others so that they could have a pool of contractors to use as subcontractors in the early days of snow management groups expansion as well as other national companies to pull from.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

It seems as the only people that are complaining about SIMA are those that aren't members? and dont fully understand evrything. But CSP has done a good job explaing everything. I think i saw Martin chime in a few times but didnt read any of his posts.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Neige;1112959 said:


> I seem to recall lots of members from this site being contacted by nationals who are not members of SIMA.


I'm one of them.


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## Plow Babe (Feb 4, 2003)

plowguy43;1111638 said:


> Why not give members flyers with info that they can include with their contracts/estimates explainig what a member of the organization is or how they are better. Kinda like having a high rating on the BBB (yes I know its easy but its recognizable).


http://www.sima.org/storelistitem.cfm?itemnumber=60

http://www.sima.org/storelistitem.cfm?itemnumber=8


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

All of this SIMA bashing and drama is for the birds.

They are a good organization that has a wealth of information available to it's membership. The networking, events, seminars, materials, nationally accredited certifications, etc, etc are very worthwhile. They have certainly improved over their meager and tainted beginnings. 

GIE media also has a good publication and great events, however they are not an exclusive snow industry organization like SIMA.....like it or not they are the only game in town. There is no competition for industry representation. Until there is, support is necessary and beneficial to all of us.The barrier of membership entry is very low....anyone can join.

Participation in this exercise is not required. I happen to believe our customer contacts and list is very privileged information, and will not be willing to share this with another party. 

I suggest SIMA consider spending their resources and energy approaching organizations like BOMA (and so many others) for awareness as opposed to a grass root attempt. I believe by SIMA joining and participating in the clients organizations, this will be a bigger bang for the buck. SIMA's influence would be wonderful but the hurdle is high. People will still choose who they want to do business with for their own reasons.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I dont really understand what all the hoopla is about here.

If you dont want to share A contact persons name (why not choose the one you know best who would tell you if something is amiss) THEN DON'T

If you dont want to be a member of SIMA to pay a small small fee for what is a wealth of knowledge and networking opportunities THEN DON'T

SIMA is not a governing body, why must they come up with "their position" on Nationals? MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND. 

Most of us are big kids here, make up your own mind, and take what you read on forums like this with a grain of salt, for the most part you have no idea who is on the other end of the keyboard. There are plenty of kids poking around on mom and dads computer with no knowledge of what they are talking about, yet are experts on nationals and pricing. There are also plenty of guys who work for nationals who keep it to themselves because they dont want they troller from down the street making a phone call when they read that this company or that company was fair, could I be one of them?


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## CSP#1 (Aug 19, 2009)

I am not afraid of a good debate on issues that matter to me. I do have to be careful about some things I say as they must remain confidential at the Board level. I can tell you that the committee in charge of this program spent a lot of time talking about how to approach this. Pretty much all of the thoughts brought up on this thread were discussed. At first, it did seem like a simple project. However, the more we talked about it the more we realized that the job of gathering information, even if it seemed very basic and a no brainer, was better off being done by a professional marketing firm. For a lot of different reasons we felt a neutral party professionallly trained in the art of asking questions would be the wisest choice. This would get us the best data possible in which to build a marketing campaign. 

I believe this to be a worthwhile effort that will strengthen SIMA as more people become aware of it. It will still be up to the individual company to sell themselves in the marketplace and convince property managers that their service and price is a better choice than the competition. However, with continued marketing and further educating the property managers in the value of hiring a SIMA member, or a CSP, it can only help our members. This will work both ways though. We will also have to ramp up our efforts to educate our members in multiple ways. 

Yes, it is easy to join, just send a check. Unfortuantely, that is what too many people have done over the years. You can't take advantage of all that SIMA has to offer if you don't attend the educational seminars, webinars, or the Symposium. You can't take advantage of all that SIMA has to offer if you don't buy the video's or marketing pamphlets. Finally, you can't take advantage of all that SIMA has to offer if you don't get invlolved, attend the various functions, network with your peers, make friends, and learn as much about the snow industry as possible.

I can see that for many people on this forum, that being a part of SIMA has no value for them. I respect that. Not every business owner has a desire to grow their business. For some, they may truly feel that they know all that they need to know. I will not convince these people that spending one penny on SIMA would benefit them. I am not interested in trying. SIMA does not now, or will not ever, appeal to everyone. However, for anyone that does wish to become more educated in the snow industry, anyone who wants to grow their business, anyone who wants to be more profitable, anyone who wants to learn how to compete against, or even work more closely with the national companies, would be wise to at least consider a SIMA membership.

I apologize to anyone who may have joined SIMA in the past and felt they did not get anything out of it. The current Board of Directors and staff feel that we are a much better association than we were. We are going in the right direction. We are working on programs that truly benefit the members in ways never done before. We would welcome anyone back who wants to renew their membership. We are always asking our members what programs or services interest them and trying to incorporate those programs and services that benefit as many people as possible. 

I would like to make one simple request. This forum is a great place to exchange ideas and even have a good debate on the issues. However, it would be nice if people would refrain from making accusations, or speaking negatively about any subject matter without having facts or proof. Perhaps only wishful thinking though.


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

TCLA;1113166 said:


> All of this SIMA bashing and drama is for the birds.
> 
> They are a good organization that has a wealth of information available to it's membership. The networking, events, seminars, materials, nationally accredited certifications, etc, etc are very worthwhile. They have certainly improved over their meager and tainted beginnings.
> 
> ...





Longae29;1113175 said:


> I dont really understand what all the hoopla is about here.
> 
> If you dont want to share A contact persons name (why not choose the one you know best who would tell you if something is amiss) THEN DON'T
> 
> ...





JD Dave;1112724 said:


> Sima membership = $130. The friends and knowledge gained from Sima priceless. If you ever go to a symposium you'll understand what I mean. I don't agree with everything Sima does but that's life. I think Martin and CSP#1 have shown what type of people are at Sima.


3 Excellent posts with regard to this thread. Cheers to all three of you .

Obviously every one here can make up there own mind as to whether SIMA is good for them or not. IMO those that choose to become members and take advantage of what it can do for your business.................it's money well spent.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

JD Dave;1112724 said:


> Sima membership = $130. The friends and knowledge gained from Sima priceless. If you ever go to a symposium you'll understand what I mean. I don't agree with everything Sima does but that's life. I think Martin and CSP#1 have shown what type of people are at Sima.


*Is this about the money?* (A lot of us spend more on a Saturday night having cocktails and a meal) *The idea that Sima might share information?*(I don't believe they do at all) *Frustration you might be having over pricing? *(pricing is typically market driven)

While I'm not a member of Sima, I've thought about joining for a few reasons; to gain valuble information in this industry, (snow removal) interact with other professionals in snow removal, and help Dave get the most members to join.

What don't I like about Sima;(ie.) There is a local company of size that has one if not two CSP's on staff and while the operation is ran in a business like manner, almost 100% of the plowing is performed with sub contractors. Not that this should matter, but many of the locations they plow never look all that good. When all you care about is the value of salting, it's hard to give a big value in clearing snow. Sure they might have good systems and processes in place, however when it's 3:00 a.m. and you call the area supervisor (yes I have moved snow for this company) to say "I noticed the loading dock has 5ft. drifts and you have guys trying to shovel them out, should I take our wheel loader and scoop out the docks? Um, I'll need to get approval first, can I call you back?" Two hours later as I drove by they were still shoveling with minimal progress for what would have been a 15 min. job with the loader. But don't worry guys, it was a big storm and I'm sure per the 10 page contract (I have seen there contract) the customer was billed some huge amount for shovelers.

As much as I want the snow removal industry to improve its professionalism, one must admit we are all a group of strange ducks: anybody that gives up 5 months of life to be ready at a moments notice to clear snow anytime day or night, regardless of conditions, and be able to have some mechanical aptitude to fix stuff in the cold (new or old breaks) oh, and maybe miss Christmas because you have to plow, of some other event.....Yep


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Neige;1111652 said:


> Yes the first posts were deleted, and instead of letting it go, its being re posted. I will repeat to the best of my knowledge what I replied last time.
> Wow that response is going over board. If you do not want to participate then don't. You dont have to come on here and slam SIMA. Every once in a while SIMA will come up with an idea that they will need volunteers to help them better understand our industry. They are always looking for ways to improve the professionalism of the snow industry. Did anyone on this site participate in the 2010 Financial Benchmark Study? I did, and you know why, because I wanted to help our industry. The information I got back comparing my results to all the others who participated will help me stream line some important issues I was not aware of before the survey. Yes I had to give all my financials to an independent accounting firm that was hired to do this research. No one at SIMA got to see the names and finances of those who participated. Once again they are asking for help from its membership. No one has to participate, but without volunteers SIMA will go nowhere. Its an independent marketing firm that will handle all this information. Once its all compiled SIMA with use it to help its membership understand the industry better. Get real do you really think Rich or any of these other big companies don't already know most of this stuff. I believe this information will be more beneficial for the smaller to medium size companies to better understand what goes on at larger scale clients. If you don't like something you don't have to participate, just say no. Knocking SIMA for trying to improve this industry makes not sense at all.
> Paul Vanderzon proud member of SIMA


*I have to agree with what paul has said. Everyone wants to bash on here about one thing or another, everyone can say NO.

To be honest, if you as a contractor don't already know who in your town has what accounts, and you don't already have an idea what there charging. You haven't been doing your homework and this stuff wouldn't help you [email protected]

I am a proud member of SIMA, and truly believe in what it stands for.

Joining SIMA is one of the best moves I have ever made! *


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Clapper&Company;1113403 said:


> *
> Joining SIMA is one of the best moves I have ever made! *


and meeting me!


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

ajslands;1113412 said:


> and meeting me!


some on has a big head !

Its ok kid, everyone dose when they start out

Hell some of us still do.... isnt that right JD DAVE


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## yamahatim (Feb 15, 2010)

Wow. Well after a lot of reading and some research, I really wanted to weigh in on this.

CSP#1 stated: "It would be our wish that over time, all end users hire nothing but SIMA members."

That is bold, and ambitious, but all organizations usually are and want the same thing. However, I can see where it would offend, or force the "union" opinion on some.

Everyone on here complains about "Nationals" and competing with them. From what I gather, the national companies go out and bid work, then hire private contractors like yourselves to work for them. The nationals in turn get a profit and have the benefit of bulk pricing due to buying power. Nothing new really, look at Walmart, to me the arm pit of retailing. However, it works because people allow it to work. If you want to compete against a "national", then DON'T join them or work for them. That will eventually put them out of business. Walmart has been successful, but there is still competition, offering not only competitive pricing, but better service and a better image. 

One thing I expect from any organization I pay money to join is leadership and innovation. What I mean by that is if SIMA truely wants to help it members there are a couple of things I see SIMA could do to better accomplish this.

1. SIMA should follow a model like the State Automobile Dealer Associations. They do group buys and volume buys through their membership base. SIMA should be working with companies that provide chemicals and equipment in bulk buys and extend those discounts to SIMA members. Propane companies do this and this could be a big benefit to keep all SIMA members competitive. The same for buying insurance, apparel, equipment, etc. This would allow SIMA members to be competitive and profitable and encourage membership.

2. Every region or state is different. Economies, taxes, laws, snowfalls, terrain, climate, etc. SIMA should have divisions in each region or state to better understand and provide the needs of the members in that particular region. You could have SIMA, as a national organization, then have seperate state or regional divisions, like NYSIMA or Eastern SIMA, etc. This may help members feel like SIMA is more in touch with their needs and to become a more active integral part of the SIMA organization.

At any rate, any time you can better yourself in your profession, you further set yourself apart from your competition. Customers will see this and will give their money to the best contractor providing the best service for the money. Not the cheapest price for their money, but the best value for the service they get for their money. You have to educate yourself to keep yourself on top. The more you learn, the more you earn. I think that is one huge benefit SIMA offers.

As far as this ENTIRE survey controversy, I see 2 ways to rectify it. 

For the person that started this post, simply, don't participate.

For future reference for SIMA, why not give your members the power to distribute your survey to collect the data you are looking for. Provide them with the surveys to give to their customers with a prepaid self addressed envelope, or a way for their customer to log onto a website. Ask for nothing more than the zip code of the person participating in the survey. There is no reason to collect names and addresses, if SIMA is not interested in contacted them or selling the information, then there is no need for it. General surveys NEVER ask for contact info, only individual companies performing their own surveys and they already have their customers information. You will get your data, and your members won't feel like they are giving away their customers.

Anyway, I feel SIMA has a lot to offer, and rather than come to a website and complain, become more active in the organization and change what you feel needs changing.

I am not a member of SIMA, and snow and lawn is just a hobby for me that I partnered in with my retired neighbor to keep him busy. (I plow, he mows) We are WAY small time, but I do see the value in it and would join if I every chose to do this full time or on a larger scale.


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## Plow Babe (Feb 4, 2003)

yamahatim;1113428 said:


> One thing I expect from any organization I pay money to join is leadership and innovation. What I mean by that is if SIMA truely wants to help it members there are a couple of things I see SIMA could do to better accomplish this.
> 
> 1. SIMA should follow a model like the State Automobile Dealer Associations. They do group buys and volume buys through their membership base. SIMA should be working with companies that provide chemicals and equipment in bulk buys and extend those discounts to SIMA members. Propane companies do this and this could be a big benefit to keep all SIMA members competitive. The same for buying insurance, apparel, equipment, etc. This would allow SIMA members to be competitive and profitable and encourage membership.
> 
> 2. Every region or state is different. Economies, taxes, laws, snowfalls, terrain, climate, etc. SIMA should have divisions in each region or state to better understand and provide the needs of the members in that particular region. You could have SIMA, as a national organization, then have seperate state or regional divisions, like NYSIMA or Eastern SIMA, etc. This may help members feel like SIMA is more in touch with their needs and to become a more active integral part of the SIMA organization.


You make some good points. SIMA does have member discounts, and as the organization grows, their buying power will as well. Regarding the second point, I believe this is also an issue of size and age of the organization. It's still relatively young, and depends on volunteers from the industry. I question that there is enough support at this time to also run state chapters. The more that professional contractors support the organization, the better it will become. As with any organization, there will always be growing pains. It would be much more productive for contractors to become involved and help it improve.

Membership in SIMA and participation in its programs are voluntary. In my view, SIMA is the closest thing we have to a professional standard for our industry. We want our customers to know that we're professionals and committed to the snow business - not just another out of work construction worker plow jockey. Membership in SIMA adds to our credibility in the marketplace. The benefits to our company are worth the small annual dues, and I'm proud to support my industry's trade organization.


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## yamahatim (Feb 15, 2010)

Plow Babe;1113451 said:


> We want our customers to know that we're professionals and committed to the snow business - not just another out of work construction worker plow jockey.


Be careful how you choose your words. All groups of potential new members are the ones SIMA is soliciting and wants to help educate to become professionals. Your statement sounds offensive and portraits SIMA and it's members in an arrogant elitist way.


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## yamahatim (Feb 15, 2010)

Martin Tirado;1112482 said:


> WIPens Fan: I'm biased but I'd love to hear what some SIMA members say about this question:
> _*Feel free to list the top 3-5 improvements within the snow removal industry directly resulting from the creation of SIMA.*_
> 
> Rhetorically, what product has ever been created that has helped someone? Examples: Email. Everyone uses them now but it's led to less productivity in the workplace. We should get rid of all email. I listen to music via an iPod. The first one I bought cost $200 and $1 per song. My Sony Walkman with cassettes cost $25. iPods have been nothing but bad because they cost more. We put a man on the moon. That has led to more space exploration costing taxpayers billions of dollars. Space exploration has never done anything to change my life except use more of my tax contributions which lowers my income.


I find your analgy interesting however I certainly hope it was a hypathetical example and you certainly don't actually have these beliefs.


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## Plow Babe (Feb 4, 2003)

yamahatim;1113454 said:


> Be careful how you choose your words. All groups of potential new members are the ones SIMA is soliciting and wants to help educate to become professionals. Your statement sounds offensive and portraits SIMA and it's members in an arrogant elitist way.


My apologies if this sounded offensive. I figured everyone on here knows what a plow jockey is, but apparently not. I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade, but it seems a clarification is in order: There's a big difference between being a plow jockey and being a newbie. We were all newbies at one time. But it's the plow jockeys that give our industry a bad name. A person can be new to the industry, but they do what they can to become educated, work on improving their skills, take responsibility for running a legitimate business, and are professional in how they treat their customers. A plow jockey is someone who hangs a plow on their truck looking for a quick buck, but cares nothing about quality, can't be bothered to learn anything about the business, takes money from customers, then disappears in February when they are broke and their truck is broken down. A newbie can be great for our industry. They are motivated, and are usually small to start off with and so can really focus on quality, and it helps keep the rest of us sharp. They are the ones on this forum trying to learn everything they can. Personally, I believe that membership in SIMA can really be helpful for anyone in the industry, but especially for the newbies, because of the educational resources available. And it is something that can show our customers and potential customers that we are serious about our work, not just out to suck what money we can out of them while providing substandard service before we move on.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

yamahatim;1113454 said:


> Be careful how you choose your words. All groups of potential new members are the ones SIMA is soliciting and wants to help educate to become professionals. Your statement sounds offensive and portraits SIMA and it's members in an arrogant elitist way.


You seem very bright tim.

Me...I'm slow, but I understood her real meaning.



yamahatim;1113463 said:


> I find your analgy interesting however I certainly hope it was a hypathetical example and you certainly don't actually have these beliefs.


No you don't ~ :laughing: ~ you could care less about his beliefs as bombastic as this post is.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

Just the fact that USM is a SIMA member says all you need to know about SIMA. Just remember all this information collected to better server you, USM will use to come up with ways to better push you out of the market. 

I'm not a SIMA member. Hell I'm only a sub contractor. One thing little ol me has noticed is people asking over and over how to compete against the big nationals that are destroying this industry. I have also noticed CSP#1 dodging the question over and over.


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## yamahatim (Feb 15, 2010)

Plow Babe;1113484 said:


> My apologies if this sounded offensive. I figured everyone on here knows what a plow jockey is, but apparently not. I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade, but it seems a clarification is in order: There's a big difference between being a plow jockey and being a newbie. We were all newbies at one time. But it's the plow jockeys that give our industry a bad name. A person can be new to the industry, but they do what they can to become educated, work on improving their skills, take responsibility for running a legitimate business, and are professional in how they treat their customers. A plow jockey is someone who hangs a plow on their truck looking for a quick buck, but cares nothing about quality, can't be bothered to learn anything about the business, takes money from customers, then disappears in February when they are broke and their truck is broken down. A newbie can be great for our industry. They are motivated, and are usually small to start off with and so can really focus on quality, and it helps keep the rest of us sharp. They are the ones on this forum trying to learn everything they can. Personally, I believe that membership in SIMA can really be helpful for anyone in the industry, but especially for the newbies, because of the educational resources available. And it is something that can show our customers and potential customers that we are serious about our work, not just out to suck what money we can out of them while providing substandard service before we move on.


This is not about sounding offensive(I could personally care less), but rather about sounding professional and representing your organization in that manner. The "plow jockey" as you describe him/her above should be the focus of a group like SIMA and it's members. Especially if they truly do give the industry a bad name. If the goal of this organization is to educate and inform, then you should not catagorize, de-moralize or de-grade any one individual or group of individuals from that goal. You stereotype someone and immediately dub them a failure rather than work harder as an organization to convince them to become a professional and adopt successful practices in the industry you are promoting and representing. Your attitude as described above is one of the very reasons people have the views they do about SIMA. If your representing SIMA, you are doing a very unprofessional job of it in my opinion.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

TCLA;1113166 said:


> I suggest SIMA consider spending their resources and energy approaching organizations like BOMA (and so many others) for awareness as opposed to a grass root attempt.


Excellent idea IMO.

At the same time SIMA should establish "Preffered Vendors" for products and allow its members a certain benefit from using the particular providor (eg: discounted fuel), all while getting a kickback from the vendor. Its being done at Landscape Ontario, and many other trade associations...why not SIMA (unless it already is).

I would even go a step further and cross market SIMA's member services to the "Preffered Vendor" (again using fuel companies) and enter into some wort of exclusivity arrrangement.

Just another brainfart...

And BTW...this thread is way off topic.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

JohnnyRoyale;1113502 said:


> And BTW...this thread is way off topic.


I know. Isn't it great!!!


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

I'm gonna go kill Bambi! Peace out homies


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

yamahatim;1113501 said:


> This is not about sounding offensive(I could personally care less), but rather about sounding professional and representing your organation in that manner. The "plow jockey" as you describe him/her above should be the focus of a group like SIMA and it's members. Especially if they truly do give the industry a bad name. If the goal of this organization is to educate and inform, then you should not catagorize, de-moralize or de-grade any one individual or group of individuals from that goal. You stereotype someone and immediately dub them a failure rather than work harder as an organization to convince them to become a professional and adopt successful practices in the industry you are promoting and representing. Your attitude as described above is one of the very reasons people have the views they do about SIMA. If your representing SIMA, you are doing a very unprofessional job of it in my opinion.


Settle down there Tim...She was just making an off the cuff comment...She seems Very Educated to me and has made some good points...


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

ajslands;1113504 said:


> I'm gonna go kill Bambi! Peace out homies


You in the woods with a Gun....God Help us All......


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## yamahatim (Feb 15, 2010)

Matson Snow;1113508 said:


> Settle down there Tim...She was just making an off the cuff comment...She seems Very Educated to me and has made some good points...


LOL! I don't need to settle down, I am far from riled up. I am just trying to help her be more professional in her assesment. This whole post started out dissing SIMA because someone was offended or pissed. I was only giving some constructive criticism in a positive manner so it doesn't happen again.

From this point on it's  and  for me.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

yamahatim;1113527 said:


> LOL! I don't need to settle down, I am far from riled up. I am just trying to help her be more professional in her assesment. This whole post started out dissing SIMA because someone was offended or pissed. I was only giving some constructive criticism in a positive manner so it doesn't happen again.
> 
> From this point on it's  and  for me.


Thank You for that Constructive Criticism....Im sure she is a Much better "Plow Jockey" for it....


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## yamahatim (Feb 15, 2010)

Matson Snow;1113531 said:


> Thank You for that Constructive Criticism....Im sure she is a Much better "Plow Jockey" for it....


I know I am now a much better plow jockey. Want some beer and popcorn?


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## nicksplowing (Oct 5, 2005)

I kinda think we were all plow jockeys at one time , unless your father,uncle, older brother was already in the snow business and taught you how to do it, which was my case. I know i was a plow jockey when i started. I started with a 1976 blazer bought a $200 plow and went to town on some residential drivesways. Today im proud to say im a snow and ice professional doing 55 commercial locations. I was a member of SIMA in 2009 and I will be joining again in 2011 because the few things that i did learn just from reading snow mag, or visiting their website helped me make some decisions to better my company. With SIMA only being 14 years young and run basically by volunteers, i think their doing great things for the industry and i could only imagine that eventually it truely will be an asset to promote your company saying I am a SIMA member,CSP etc. My point here is if you want to grow on your own, so be it......but if you want to learn from others with more experience, know how or professionalism SIMA is where its at.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

if everyone would like to continue the conversation in a "constructive" way then we can leave it here, however, if those that want to take it off track, try attacking those posting comments informing the members about SIMA, etc. want to continue then we can just close out the thread


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## Kramer (Nov 13, 2004)

CSP#1;1111630 said:


> Perhaps some of you don't understand what SIMA is and what its purpose is. If you have questions please call me, one of the other Board members or the SIMA staff. SIMA is NOT, I repeat, NOT a contractor, nor are they out to steal your business.
> 
> This e-mail was sent out because the SIMA Board of Directors has directed the SIMA staff to embark on a knowledge gathering mission in an effort to meet an important goal within our strategic plan. We as a Board, have felt that we needed to raise awareness of the SIMA name and the CSP program amongst property owners, managers, and anyone else needing to hire a snow contractor. Through raising the awareness level, we hope to provide SIMA members a competitive advantage over non SIMA members.
> 
> ...


I haven't read the entire post, but here's some info for you....

You predicate this whole thing on trying to find out what customers want in a contractor.

How the hell are you representing yourself as an advantage to contractors if you don't even know the basics? SIMA has promoted itself as a leg up to people who get certified...yada yada yada. In short, people all want the same things from their snow management company... good price, good service and reliability. There's no magic bullet here.

The fact is that you really just want to contact peoples customers (IE---waste their time) and promote SIMA.

Here's a question.... if I already have a customer, obviously I've done what they want to get the contract. How hard is that to figure out? Why would I want you to start bringing up things to my customer that in your eyes gives better service but in fact, reduces my ability to service my customers due to time and or scheduling? I don't need your help, and neither does anyone else that already has the business. For those that don't they've already figured out that they need to compete on price, service quality, and reliability. So now you ask residentials what they want and they start thinking---"yeah, I'd like my walk shoveled, my car cleaned off and someone to bring me a coffee". And yes, this is just an example but it brings up the fact that you're doing everyone a dis-service ---the guy that has the business doesnt need your help---the guy that doesnt have the business doesnt need to start delivering cofee becasuse your marketing company decided to stick their nose in the indusrty.

In addition, why would I want to bother my customers with YOUR survey? Why would I want to piss off my customers so you can promote yourself.

This isn't about helping the snow management industry--its about helping SIMA.

SHAME ON YOU.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Kramer;1114925 said:


> I haven't read the entire post, but here's some info for you....
> 
> You predicate this whole thing on trying to find out what customers want in a contractor.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should have read the whole thread. SIMA is asking its membership with help in this project, no one else. The members have the choice to participate or not. Why do you think SIMA has 1600 + members. I can only speak for myself, but I became a member to see what else I could learn. I had been doing snow for 29 years before becoming a member. After my first year I implemented what I learned, and one of the greatest changes in our company's history was going from 0 cash flow (actually heavily into our credit margin) to having 600 grand in the bank before the season even starts. What do you think that was worth for our company being a member of SIMA? I continue to learn from being a member. I become more professional every year, I keep better records, I talk to my customers more, I have improved relations with my employees, I have networked with other members, I keep up up with the latest equipment and products, and yes I want a competitive edge over my competitors and SIMA is helping me to do so.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

JohnnyRoyale;1113502 said:


> Excellent idea IMO.
> 
> At the same time SIMA should establish "Preffered Vendors" for products and allow its members a certain benefit from using the particular providor (eg: discounted fuel), all while getting a kickback from the vendor. Its being done at Landscape Ontario, and many other trade associations...why not SIMA (unless it already is).
> 
> ...


This is right there on thier site.... Not very usefull stuff unless you run Cat, IMO it needs improvement but the point is its started and thier trying...

http://www.sima.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=144


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

This thread is getting completely ridiculous IMO.

It really surprises me to see all the negative opinions about SIMA and what they represent to this industry. I understand that those posting negatively are not SIMA members. What I don't understand is how you can even comment about an organization that you so obviously show don't know anything about. 

I will type the rest of this really slowing for those that don't get it............................



If you want to be a SIMA member join. If you don't think it's for you then don't join. 

It's as simple as that.

If the latter is the case, don't come on here to spout off so negatively about SIMA when you appear to not understand what they are.

Rant over.................................................


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## yamahatim (Feb 15, 2010)

Again, I think there is a simple solution that will rectify the situation. I have been in the automotive/motorsports business for over 20 years. This industry, as you know surveys customers to death. So follow a similar structure to this proven industry:

SIMA, should give it's members the power to distribute the survey to help collect the data SIMA is looking for. Provide them with the surveys to give to their customers with a prepaid SIMA addressed envelope, or a code or password for their customer to log onto a website to do the survey online. (However you have already planned to do this). Ask for nothing more than the zip code of the person participating in the survey. That will keep your members customers confidential, but give you the data by specific areas.

There is no reason to collect names and addresses if SIMA is not interested in contacted them or selling the information(As accused by the original poster). General surveys NEVER ask for contact info, only individual companies performing their own surveys(basically for updating their databases) and they already have that customers general information because they earned it. You will get your data, and your members won't feel like they are giving away their customers information and potential future business.

Pretty simple solution in my opinion.

If SIMA insists on getting the information, the do not participate in the survey if you don't wish them to have that information. I would be suspicious and surprised if SIMA still insisted on collecting names and addresses. That would indicate different intentions on the part of SIMA in my professional opinion.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

Also keep in mind that SIMA contracted a third party marketing firm to conduct this survey. I'm sure that firm had more to do with populating the survey and requesting information such as numbers and addresses than SIMA did.

SIMA lets the firm know what type of information they want from the survey and the firm constructs it and finds the best way to distribute, i.e. through member contractors.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

there is plenty of information here in this thread for all to read and, as Neige said, "Maybe you should have read the whole thread. SIMA is asking its membership with help in this project, no one else. The members have the choice to participate or not"

so, I believe we can leave it at that and thus, put an end to this thread...if you are a SIMA member and want to participate then you can and if you don't then you do not have to. also, if you want to join SIMA then, by all means, go ahead and if you don't then nobody is forcing you too

either way, I think we can close it out on that note

thanks


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