# Opportunity to start a business. Looking for help/guidance



## dvplowing (Oct 21, 2020)

Hey everyone I found this site on google and was hoping I could turn to you guys for some questions.

My wife took a position as a property manager for a large company and part of her portfolio includes 3 commercial properties; Two apartment complexs and one residential/commercial office building. Her boss approached her about finding a plowing company for the winter and I expressed my interest.

Of the three properties, I only have the ability to do one at this time. The property is a 140 unit apartment complex and my responsibilites would strictly include plowing and salting of the parking lots only (no sidewalks/building entrances).

I told him what I would charge for the 2020-2021 snow season and he asked how I came up with my price. Truthfully, I looked at the three other quotes my wife got and I told him that but I also told him that I discussed the situation with my cousin (who owns a commercial plowing company) who said insurance is crazy expensive for plow companies. He offered me the opportunity to be an employee of the company so I would save on the insurance end but I would still have to use my own equipment. I truly believe he is trying to help me and obviously save their business more money so I told him I would get back to him.

Here are where my questions come in to play..

1. If I was an employee of their company and still using my personal truck (registered and insured to me), would I still be liable for "slip and fall" lawsuits or would my employer (their company) be liable?

2. Can I be an employee and just get additional insurance to cover myself from lawsuits?

3. If I were to do it as a business, should it be an S corp or LLC? - I have personal assests with significant value that I would need to be assured I was not at risk of losing them.

4. What can I expect to pay for insurance (roughly) if I were to do this as a private venture and not an employee for them? This is my biggest concern. As stated, my cousin has a commercial plowing business and told me he pays $12k a season for insurance on one truck and one skidsteer. *HOWEVER,* my cousin did not put in a bid and now wants this account so I dont know if he is being 100% honest with me.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

#1, you would probably have to lease your truck to his company. I think you still need to have a commercial auto policy. 
#2, not sure, but you shouldn't have to as long as there's a good paper trail of #1, etc 
#3, you can form an LLC and file corporate 
#4, contact a local independent insurance agent


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Employees don’t need to have insurance
Or organizating a business.( such as a LLC)
If you become a employee, you wouldn’t hold the contract, your buddy would.

If you hold the contact you will need insurance and to organize a business 
Like a LLC. ( usually done before a contact is signed. And you wouldn’t be plowing it as a employee of your buddies business.

Do you have access to salt?
How do you intend to take care of the sidewalks?
Are you prepared to spend all day plowing?


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## dvplowing (Oct 21, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> Employees don't need to have insurance
> Or organizating a business.( such as a LLC)
> If you become a employee, you wouldn't hold the contract, your buddy would.
> 
> ...


Thank you both for the response.

There's is no contract in this situation as I would just be an employee of the complex. I'm still concerned that I would somehow be liable since I'm using my own vehicle.
I am prepared to plow all day, I do have access to salt, and the sidewalks will be done by the laborers of the complex (they have a UTV with plow and spreader).


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

You said, 
your wife was asked to hire a plowing company. why would she need to hire a plowing Company if the complex hires employees to do the snow removal?
Wouldn’t you be a employee of the complex?

Plenty of folks use their own tools when working for someone, but talk to your Ins agent. 

Then talk to a lawyer and have a simple contact written up, this has to much exposure 
To take on without a contact And organize your business. 

Talk to your ins agent and get a quote to cover
Your snowremovel business.


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## dvplowing (Oct 21, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> You said,
> your wife was asked to hire a plowing company. why would she need to hire a plowing Company if the complex hires employees to do the snow removal?
> Wouldn't you be a employee of the complex?
> 
> ...


The employees on scene are day laborers for lack of a better term. Most don't have a license therefore they don't want them operating equipment.

I will follow up with my attorney. I spoke to an insurance agent already and it doesn't seem worth the job based on the quote they gave me.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

dvplowing said:


> 4. What can I expect to pay for insurance (roughly) if I were to do this as a private venture and not an employee for them? This is my biggest concern. As stated, my cousin has a commercial plowing business and told me he pays $12k a season for insurance on one truck and one skidsteer. *HOWEVER,* my cousin did not put in a bid and now wants this account so I dont know if he is being 100% honest with me.


I am not sure what state you are in, but if you are a sole owner, one location, one truck, one property to service, with no employees (No Work Comp) GL for a year would not be even close to that much (at least here).

your premiums will be based on exposure.


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## dvplowing (Oct 21, 2020)

Philbilly2 said:


> I am not sure what state you are in, but if you are a sole owner, one location, one truck, one property to service, with no employees (No Work Comp) GL for a year would not be even close to that much (at least here).
> 
> your premiums will be based on exposure.


I literally just got off the phone with the insurance company and it's over $12k for exactly what you described. I'm in NY. Needless to say it's not beneficial for me to do the plowing at this point


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

dvplowing said:


> I literally just got off the phone with the insurance company and it's over $12k for exactly what you described. I'm in NY. Needless to say it's not beneficial for me to do the plowing at this point


What did you use for annual sales? 
You should have given them the total of whatever you charge per push times how many per season, or the total of your seasonal contract. 
Also, are they including the commercial auto in that quote?
The quote seems high for anywhere.


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## dvplowing (Oct 21, 2020)

EWSplow said:


> What did you use for annual sales?
> You should have given them the total of whatever you charge per push times how many per season, or the total of your seasonal contract.
> Also, are they including the commercial auto in that quote?
> The quote seems high for anywhere.


I gave them the total contract price and yes it did include a commercial auto policy


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

dvplowing said:


> I gave them the total contract price and yes it did include a commercial auto policy


Wow, your insurance rates seem high. 
I have no idea what your contract price is, but being one property, I'm guessing it can't be too crazy.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Call an independent agent and have them shop that around...like ewsplow said that seems high even for NY


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

dvplowing said:


> I gave them the total contract price and yes it did include a commercial auto policy


What was the breakdown of the GL vs Auto? Was their W/C in there as well??

Woah that seems way high... must be a new york thing?


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## dvplowing (Oct 21, 2020)

Philbilly2 said:


> What was the breakdown of the GL vs Auto? Was their W/C in there as well??
> 
> Woah that seems way high... must be a new york thing?


GL was "over $11k" and the auto was $1180. No W/C


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

maybe just have the owner/employer add you to his policy as a named insured


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

dvplowing said:


> GL was "over $11k" and the auto was $1180. No W/C


Yikes!


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

EWSplow said:


> Yikes!


Normal for that area,

But.....

what if you registered the business in another state and just happen to do your work in NY, not that anyone would do that for taxes already.........


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Normal for that area,
> 
> But.....
> 
> what if you registered the business in another state and just happen to do your work in NY, not that anyone would do that for taxes already.........


Wait a minute, you guys don't all work in Delaware?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Wait a minute, you guys don't all work in Delaware?


No, I don't like the northeast, too many people.

And the insurance is high...


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> No, I don't like the northeast, too many people.
> 
> And the insurance is high...


I thought a lot of US companies incorporated in Delaware because the corporate income tax is 0%.... maybe this is just for the really big companies?


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I thought a lot of US companies incorporated in Delaware because the corporate income tax is 0%.... maybe this is just for the really big companies?


it is because of Delaware's liability laws mainly; nothing to do with taxes. You will have to pay taxes in any taxing jurisdiction that you earn income in, regardless of where you incorporated.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

seville009 said:


> it is because of Delaware's liability laws mainly; nothing to do with taxes. You will have to pay taxes in any taxing jurisdiction that you earn income in, regardless of where you incorporated.


Thank you @seville009 . Just brushed up on that, apparently the corporate income taxes aren't even that low, compared to other states. Not that it matters as you pointed out with paying taxes where you earn the income.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I thought a lot of US companies incorporated in Delaware because the corporate income tax is 0%.... maybe this is just for the really big companies?


Quite a few of the lake freighters are registered in Willington Delaware, even though they can't leave the great lakes.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Lax business laws and they only tax income from sales within the state. So lots of big businesses with offices there and accounting firms.


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## Daley Construction (Nov 15, 2017)

dvplowing said:


> I literally just got off the phone with the insurance company and it's over $12k for exactly what you described. I'm in NY. Needless to say it's not beneficial for me to do the plowing at this point


I know that when I talked to my insurance broker he mentioned that if snow removal makes up 50% of a business income than insurance is much higher than if you have more income from other sources.


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