# Stop Salting so much (Rant)



## zabMasonry (Oct 13, 2007)

I don't deal with salt in my work. If i use anything its sand but usually i just leave it clear of snow.

But It bugs the living bejesus out of me when people salt during a _snow storm_ I was on my college campus during the last storm and rather then waiting for the end of the storm they salted in the morning when we were still to get another 2-4" of white stuff. This meant that rather then roads and walkways having a couple of inches of snow on them, they had a couple of inches of slop, thats just as slippery as snow, but also pulls you around and rots out your rig. I really wish that folks would quit spreading salt during the storm (unless its icing thats a different issue) and just wait until the end of the storm to melt off what ever is left. Rather then spending tons of money on salt during the storm, just use it sparingly at the end. I know that folks are worried about liability, but its A SNOW STORM not palm beech if the folks can deal with it they should move south.

sorry for the rant. just needed to get it out. i realize this may be unpopular thats ok.


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## mike33087 (Feb 9, 2005)

yea but spreading salt the way they did helps prevent the 2-4 " from packing into the pavement which takes longer to melt. slush is easy to scrape up


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## chcav1218 (Jul 31, 2008)

you gotta keep a little layer of slush between the pavement and the snow, it makes it easier to clear


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm like the Trix cereal rabbit...I'm just cuckoo for salt applications: xysportpurplebou:bluebouncxysport


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## festerw (Sep 25, 2003)

Everything on a campus is about liability, if it costs an extra 1k to throw down extra salt instead of a lawsuit, they'll pick the extra salt everytime. Trust me PSU leaves piles of salt and sand laying in the lots after a snow....I'm one of the ones who has to clean it up after it gets tracked into the building.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

That's well said zabMasonry. I couldn't agree with you more about the overkill of salt and how much people worry about liability. Really, we live in a snow region. I rarely salt till it stops snowing and even them I use a sand salt mix and try to use the minimum needed.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

zab,
Gota argee with ya. The state of mass is insane with their salt usage I bet they could save a billion dollars a year with a sensible salt policy. I was taking a break from plowing a shopping plaza I used to do, I watched one tri axle come by plow down and salt comming out the back end, following behind him was another tri axle with plow down and salt spereader on there were a total of 4 truck in this proccession 3 of which were plowing up the salt left by the truck in front of it. 

When I did shopping centers we plowed and shoveled with the storm, I was assigned with a loader to take care of the place, we never had an issue with all the cars packing down the snow. The salt truck never arrived untill after the storm to burn off what was left, our goal was dry by the next day. 

While salt may help in snow removal depending on the type of stom especially if applied before the start of the storm Its not an absolute necessity nor is it needed to continue to salt during the storm

Lou


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## festerw (Sep 25, 2003)

Here's what you guys need to understand a college campus is an entirely different animal from a shopping mall. The campus I'm on has 5k+ students, staff and faculty all moving around from 7am-9pm in that time every parking space is full when classes change it's mass chaos with people and vehicles everywhere. Most of the time everything is plowed by 7am then main pathways are plowed when needed if possible, dumping salt after the main plow in the morning is the easiest way to keep everything clear as long as possible.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

mike33087;678047 said:


> yea but spreading salt the way they did helps prevent the 2-4 " from packing into the pavement which takes longer to melt. slush is easy to scrape up


What he said.

It's called anti-icing or pretreating. Similar to preplowing, but different.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;678401 said:


> What he said.
> 
> Similar to preplowing, but different.


 lmao


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

I take it the orginal poster of this thread hasn't been sued before......assuming that is the case, to anwser your questions lawyers are the reason that happens.


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

mullis56;678405 said:


> I take it the orginal poster of this thread hasn't been sued before......assuming that is the case, to anwser your questions lawyers are the reason that happens.


 the lawyers.... but i have to agree they have made the practices of this industry what they are.ussmileyflagussmileyflag


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Has anyone here had their insurance company pay out for a "slip and fall"?


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

I thought you guys are in the business of snow and ice removal? I know I am. The more I plow and salt the better, it is how I make a living. I would never complain about to much of either. Thats like the guys that cut grass in the summer saying the grass is growing to fast.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

John Mac;678461 said:


> I thought you guys are in the business of snow and ice removal? I know I am. The more I plow and salt the better, it is how I make a living. I would never complain about to much of either. Thats like the guys the cut grass in the summer saying the grass is growing to fast.


Ditto


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## zabMasonry (Oct 13, 2007)

I've never been sued. I've never heard of anybody being sued in a case that didn't include GROSS negligence (IE: not plowing, not salting when their is definite ice on the ground. ect. ) This is vermont, and people are pretty calm around here and that may be different.



> Here's what you guys need to understand a college campus is an entirely different animal from a shopping mall. The campus I'm on has 5k+ students, staff and faculty all moving around from 7am-9pm in that time every parking space is full when classes change it's mass chaos with people and vehicles everywhere. Most of the time everything is plowed by 7am then main pathways are plowed when needed if possible, dumping salt after the main plow in the morning is the easiest way to keep everything clear as long as possible.


I get what you are saying, at my school very few people go between classes in a vehicle. I also get what folks are saying about pre salting, but I generally take the opinion of stay with the storm, then salt at the end.

I live in the middle of nowhere in a town that does not even salt their paved roads, I really don't have a problem with compacted snow on the roads. In fact january and february are the best roads in my town, everything is as smooth as a baby's a$$.

It just yanks my chain when we hear about the university being 20 million short, but see them spreading salt like its candy to small children at the 4th of july parade. I saw, honest to god, a truck spreading salt on salt on 3" slush, We got plows for a reason - so that we don't have to pay to use salt to melt the snow away - its just ridiculous. I'm going to put a complaint in.


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

Zab, I am not sure that plowing is any cheaper than using salt. Salting is much faster. Plowing takes longer, and very hard to push snow to the snow bank with people and cars in the way. The only thing that I will do during the day at any parking lot that I do is salt, just to hard to plow. The collage has lots of money, all they have to do is raise your tuition.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

blowerman;678432 said:


> Has anyone here had their insurance company pay out for a "slip and fall"?


No but we keep deatailed site records and do lot check 7 days a week, sometimes twice /day, so if we do have a problem when we send our info in most cases are dropped immediately. It's very easy for you to say I'm using to much salt, but your in a different area and you might not do the same type of places I do. If you just leave the snow and don't show you did anything your screwed. JMO Oh and I agree with what Mark and Crete said. BTW I preplow in my sleep all the time.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

I have a lot that is slick blacktop going downhill pretty steep. The semi's coming in have to pull in and turn around at the bottom and then 3 point backing into the dock. Leaving they must pull their load back up the slick incline and make it without hitting anything.

Did I mention there is a row of cars on both sides of the lot making this a tunnel like affect? The trucks have one shot at making their turn around and back into the dock or it is a cluster fudge. 

I salt that lane before, during and after every storm.


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## 84deisel (Dec 2, 2003)

ever hear of zero tollerance? Also do you know how much more salt is required to melt down hardpack and ice buildup ? We do post offices and banks along with other high traffic areas and if we didnt pre salt then we would have to keep a truck on every lot all during the storm. By pre salting and salting as we plow it keeps the ice and snow from builing up on the surface thereby reducing the extra labor and equipment and materials needed to keep the surfaces in acceptlable and up to our and the contracts standards.That being said it is also a substancial money maker for us.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

84deisel;678559 said:


> ever hear of zero tollerance? Also do you know how much more salt is required to melt down hardpack and ice buildup ? We do post offices and banks along with other high traffic areas and if we didnt pre salt then we would have to keep a truck on every lot all during the storm. By pre salting and salting as we plow it keeps the ice and snow from builing up on the surface thereby reducing the extra labor and equipment and materials needed to keep the surfaces in acceptlable and up to our and the contracts standards.That being said it is also a substancial money maker for us.


Before Mark O says it, do you also preplow or do you just plow. The proper terminology is anti-icing not presalting and don't feel bad because Mark O set me atraight also. I agree with what you said though all our lots are 0 tolerance.


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## festerw (Sep 25, 2003)

John Mac;678494 said:


> The collage has lots of money, all they have to do is raise your tuition.


Or the parking fees, campus I'm at charges students (IIRC) 270/semester and faculty/staff 35/month and it keeps going up every year.


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## 84deisel (Dec 2, 2003)

yes we preplow also:waving:


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

84deisel;678581 said:


> yes we preplow also:waving:


I would also but I just can't figure out a way to bill for it.LOL


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

JD Dave;678590 said:


> I would also but I just can't figure out a way to bill for it.LOL


Pretty straightforward if you ask me. Its all about customer education. Just let them know that in an effort to be more "green" and cut down on environmentally hazardous ice melting materials you are using pre plowing to heat up the surface of the parking lot so that less ice and snow will adhere to the surface. When the plow grinds against the dry pavement you should hopefully be able to see sparks, which means the pre plowing is working. We usually only charge 3/4 the price of what you guys call "plowing" because you can just drive around and not have to worry about piling the snow up. Any questions let me know.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Longae29;678764 said:


> Pretty straightforward if you ask me. Its all about customer education. Just let them know that in an effort to be more "green" and cut down on environmentally hazardous ice melting materials you are using pre plowing to heat up the surface of the parking lot so that less ice and snow will adhere to the surface. When the plow grinds against the dry pavement you should hopefully be able to see sparks, which means the pre plowing is working. We usually only charge 3/4 the price of what you guys call "plowing" because you can just drive around and not have to worry about piling the snow up. Any questions let me know.


Great, next up: "Stop Plowing so much (Rant)" see plowing forum.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

JD Dave;678590 said:


> I would also but I just can't figure out a way to bill for it.LOL


Have you tried pre-stacking? That's been our trick all along. Edge of the asphalt drop the bucket and dig a few feet down, now you are ready to put the snow in the hole. 
No problem getting customers to pay, we just let them know they save by not having us truck the snow away.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Wow everyone is in good humour today, very nice to see.


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

...so if we pre-plow, would that eliminate the need for de-icing?


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

creativedesigns;678968 said:


> ...so if we pre-plow, would that eliminate the need for de-icing?


That's a good question but if we preplow, then how can we prestack?


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

Should I presalt or preplow first?


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## Joesno (Dec 8, 2008)

you gotta prevent an ice layer from forming!!!


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

> I would also but I just can't figure out a way to bill for it.LOL


JD, that would be pre billing of course. ! In the excavating biz that would be called a "pencil bill" so when the customer decides that you billed him to much you can change it.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

John Mac;679047 said:


> JD, that would be pre billing of course. ! In the excavating biz that would be called a "pencil bill" so when the customer decides that you billed him to much you can change it.


So do you bill premonthly then? Or by the preseason?


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## mzgloves20 (Nov 30, 2008)

My neighbor, in the plowing and salting business, as I am, was on the bad end of $750, 000 lawsuit when a 65 year old (early riser...lol... as I affectionatly call them) beat his crew to a bank which he maintains. 

He slipped and hurt his elbow. Off to FL. for a nice long vacation now with his winnings.


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## DKG (Feb 3, 2008)

They say if a town only has 1 lawyer, he would go broke. But with more than 1 lawyer they all thrive. Does VT only have 1 lawyer?


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## zabMasonry (Oct 13, 2007)

Ironically vermont has one of the highest percentages of lawyers per capita in the country. The capitol, montpelier, is second only to Washington DC. For some reason though, people just don't sue each other around here. I guess the notion that you should make money when somebody hurts you just hasn't got in around here. We're kinda behind the country in most ways so . . .


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JDiepstra;678986 said:


> Should I presalt or preplow first?


Tried the preplowing and presalting last night, it didn't work at all.  :realmad:

I think I'm going to go presleep now.


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## ford550 (Nov 9, 2008)

> Pretty straightforward if you ask me. Its all about customer education. Just let them know that in an effort to be more "green" and cut down on environmentally hazardous ice melting materials you are using pre plowing to heat up the surface of the parking lot so that less ice and snow will adhere to the surface. When the plow grinds against the dry pavement you should hopefully be able to see sparks, which means the pre plowing is working. We usually only charge 3/4 the price of what you guys call "plowing" because you can just drive around and not have to worry about piling the snow up. Any questions let me know.


Now that's freakin' funny. I was rolling when I read that. I have been trying to find a new add on so that I may increase cash flow in the winter. Here in eastern PA, that's about all we could be doing for the last 4 years.


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## Sydenstricker Landscaping (Dec 17, 2006)

I like to preplow before I presalt so the pavement surface is nice and clean for the salt to work on Plus I also prepeel the turf before the storm so there isnt any turf damage during the storm


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## MB3 (Oct 11, 2007)

*Just making sure I have this right ....*

First, I have to *Pre-bill *the customer, with *Pre-paper*, because I am going green by
*Pre-Plowing *- but before the *Pre-plowing *- there needs to be
*Pre-peeling *and *Pre-stacking *- once all those are done, -
*Pre-salting *can be completed - but first, I have to *Pre-sleep *- so off to bed I go - before I *Pre-potty*


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

before all this pre-work can be done, does there have to be a pre snow forecast or do you guys just wing it and hope the snow comes later


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## veggin psd (Feb 8, 2007)

MB3;680134 said:


> First, I have to *Pre-bill *the customer, with *Pre-paper*, because I am going green by
> *Pre-Plowing *- but before the *Pre-plowing *- there needs to be
> *Pre-peeling *and *Pre-stacking *- once all those are done, -
> *Pre-salting *can be completed - but first, I have to *Pre-sleep *- so off to bed I go - before I *Pre-potty*


PREty Funny!


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## eshskis (Dec 1, 2008)

zabMasonry;678015 said:


> I don't deal with salt in my work. If i use anything its sand but usually i just leave it clear of snow.
> 
> But It bugs the living bejesus out of me when people salt during a _snow storm_ I was on my college campus during the last storm and rather then waiting for the end of the storm they salted in the morning when we were still to get another 2-4" of white stuff. This meant that rather then roads and walkways having a couple of inches of snow on them, they had a couple of inches of slop, thats just as slippery as snow, but also pulls you around and rots out your rig. I really wish that folks would quit spreading salt during the storm (unless its icing thats a different issue) and just wait until the end of the storm to melt off what ever is left. Rather then spending tons of money on salt during the storm, just use it sparingly at the end. I know that folks are worried about liability, but its A SNOW STORM not palm beech if the folks can deal with it they should move south.
> 
> sorry for the rant. just needed to get it out. i realize this may be unpopular thats ok.


Dude salt improves safety and disallows the snow to pack, just before a storm is a important time to salt but I myself don't do it all the time


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

MB3;680134 said:


> First, I have to *Pre-bill *the customer, with *Pre-paper*, because I am going green by
> *Pre-Plowing *- but before the *Pre-plowing *- there needs to be
> *Pre-peeling *and *Pre-stacking *- once all those are done, -
> *Pre-salting *can be completed - but first, I have to *Pre-sleep *- so off to bed I go - before I *Pre-potty*


I hope you have a pre-nup agreement


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## mzgloves20 (Nov 30, 2008)

Oh..and we must be pre-paid!


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## purpleranger519 (Jan 1, 2006)

JD Dave;678512 said:


> No but we keep deatailed site records and do lot check 7 days a week, sometimes twice /day, so if we do have a problem when we send our info in most cases are dropped immediately. It's very easy for you to say I'm using to much salt, but your in a different area and you might not do the same type of places I do. If you just leave the snow and don't show you did anything your screwed. JMO Oh and I agree with what Mark and Crete said. BTW I preplow in my sleep all the time.


Same here...we keep a detailed log and even take pictures of the lots when we are done.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Longae29;678764 said:


> Pretty straightforward if you ask me. Its all about customer education. Just let them know that in an effort to be more "green" and cut down on environmentally hazardous ice melting materials you are using pre plowing to heat up the surface of the parking lot so that less ice and snow will adhere to the surface. When the plow grinds against the dry pavement you should hopefully be able to see sparks, which means the pre plowing is working. We usually only charge 3/4 the price of what you guys call "plowing" because you can just drive around and not have to worry about piling the snow up. Any questions let me know.


Since being GREEN came up and this all starts out about VT and all how about a "STOP CUTTING DOWN ALL THE TREES, RANT"

Why is it they cut trees down in VT/NH like as if there were an endless supply of them. The impact to the enviorment after a clear cutting operation is much more long lasting than some salt on a side walk or street.

For that fact of the matter why even pave any streets? Just keep them all dirt roads. Let's see how that treats your rigs. Better yet, how about all them darn fumes comin out of the back of them rigs you all drive up there in VT. How about parking them and riding a horse. Let help out and go GREEN!!!

Ron G.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

4evergreenlawns;685415 said:


> Since being GREEN came up and this all starts out about VT and all how about a "STOP CUTTING DOWN ALL THE TREES, RANT"
> 
> Why is it they cut trees down in VT/NH like as if there were an endless supply of them. The impact to the enviorment after a clear cutting operation is much more long lasting than some salt on a side walk or street.
> 
> ...


Very good Ron, a sense of humor. I'm impressed.


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## snowman79 (Nov 27, 2007)

I understand why you are ranting...Slush really is a mess and sometimes harder to drive in then snow. But the reason they presalt or salt during the storm is once those classes release there will be a lot of traffic down the lanes and exit roads. This will cause the snow to become hardpacked to the pavement and eventually turn to ice, where as with the presalt is leaves a layer of slush between the pavement and snow therefor enabling it to be scraped clean.
Last year the state and township would always presalt but with salt being short and expensive they have quit that and roads are pretty rough even when snow isnt falling.


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## zabMasonry (Oct 13, 2007)

I take it you haven't heard of our "Gravel The Interstate" movement.

On a more interesting topic. The state _has stopped salting before the end of the storm_ last couple of storms the state plows where just plowing on the interstate, not laying down any salt untill the storm was done. Many municipalities are doing the same. its pretty F!ng cool to drive down a completely white interstate. with snow everywhere around you. Hell if they threw down some sand the surface would be just as good as pavement. As a by product of this the plows now move down the highway going around 50 so the fresh stuff gets gone faster and the snow is thrown farther off the interstate which means shorter snow banks. oh yeah, and it saves us (the tax payers) a SH!T load of money.

I get what you folks are sayin about pre-saltin to prevent a snow pack from forming, I just don't see a need to be able to see pavement until the storm is completely done.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

zabMasonry;686503 said:


> I take it you haven't heard of our "Gravel The Interstate" movement.
> 
> On a more interesting topic. The state _has stopped salting before the end of the storm_ last couple of storms the state plows where just plowing on the interstate, not laying down any salt untill the storm was done. Many municipalities are doing the same. its pretty F!ng cool to drive down a completely white interstate. with snow everywhere around you. Hell if they threw down some sand the surface would be just as good as pavement. As a by product of this the plows now move down the highway going around 50 so the fresh stuff gets gone faster and the snow is thrown farther off the interstate which means shorter snow banks. oh yeah, and it saves us (the tax payers) a SH!T load of money.
> 
> I get what you folks are sayin about pre-saltin to prevent a snow pack from forming, I just don't see a need to be able to see pavement until the storm is completely done.


Yeah, well, once again your lack of experience and knowledge is showing. It has been proven time and again that preventing hardpack reduces the amount of salt needed to return pavement to bare condition.

And sand is worthless on pavement, studies have shown that time and time again as well. Gravel, yes, pavement, it does nothing except during ice storms, and then it's use is still limited.

But that's OK, when I was 20 I knew everything too.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Mark Oomkes;686419 said:


> Very good Ron, a sense of humor. I'm impressed.


See and you thought you knew me. I do enjoy a good laugh. Actually, I can be a fun guy to be around.

Thanks for noticing and the kind mention.

Ron G.


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## eshskis (Dec 1, 2008)

ok kids do we need to seperate you guys.....


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## Mike S (Feb 11, 2007)

coldcoffee;678079 said:


> I'm like the Trix cereal rabbit...I'm just cuckoo for salt applications: xysportpurplebou:bluebouncxysport


I like that!!!


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm pretty excited about this preplowing stuff. The big question is do I need shoes on my plow? I always say real men don't wear shoes, but maybe this is different. Does preshoveling stink as much as regular postshoveling?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

2COR517;693346 said:


> I'm pretty excited about this preplowing stuff. The big question is do I need shoes on my plow? I always say real men don't wear shoes, but maybe this is different. Does preshoveling stink as much as regular postshoveling?


Just don't pretie your shoes, otherwise you'll never be able to prewear them.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;693711 said:


> Just don't pretie your shoes, otherwise you'll never be able to prewear them.


But how will you ne able to prewear them if you dont pretie them?


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## Ropinghorns (Oct 16, 2008)

One thng I have learned from this thread--- BE PREEE PAIRED!!!!!!!!!!


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

I tried pre-heating rock salt yesturday lol ...it works much faster!


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## Lucky Star (Dec 16, 2008)

I will salt whenever they want it, because another trip of salt means MORe money, and like already said easier to clear slush.

payup


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## Winter Land Man (Aug 9, 2005)

mike33087;678047 said:


> yea but spreading salt the way they did helps prevent the 2-4 " from packing into the pavement which takes longer to melt. slush is easy to scrape up


Just my opinion on that, but I plow parking lots and private roads, and even after many vehicles drive over the snow, my plows seem to scrape most of it up. I don't sand and salt during the storm, because just like the guy said, it creates slush, and eventually, will be covered in snow again. I salt (mixed with sand usually) after, and the ice will melt away. If I was to salt all my customer's parking lots and roads and driveways at the beginning of the storm (and had it added to a seasonal contract to do so), I'd probably be out of business.


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## Winter Land Man (Aug 9, 2005)

blowerman;678432 said:


> Has anyone here had their insurance company pay out for a "slip and fall"?


Not me. I'm not even in charge of slip and falls, under contract I have the owners of the property take responsibility for that situation. No slip and falls as far as I'm aware. Everyone's happy.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Winter Land Man;696829 said:


> Not me. I'm not even in charge of slip and falls, under contract I have the owners of the property take responsibility for that situation. No slip and falls as far as I'm aware. Everyone's happy.


Even if you have that in your contract, your name can still be listed on the lawsuit and then you have to defend yourself.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Winter Land Man;696825 said:


> Just my opinion on that, but I plow parking lots and private roads, and even after many vehicles drive over the snow, my plows seem to scrape most of it up. I don't sand and salt during the storm, because just like the guy said, it creates slush, and eventually, will be covered in snow again. I salt (mixed with sand usually) after, and the ice will melt away. If I was to salt all my customer's parking lots and roads and driveways at the beginning of the storm (and had it added to a seasonal contract to do so), I'd probably be out of business.


I beleieve the OP was talking about sidewalks not lots or roads


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

JD Dave;678512 said:


> BTW I preplow in my sleep all the time.


sad thing was, yesterday evening when trying to get some sleep before last nights snow, (which was supposed to be plowable) I couldnt stop mentally plowing parking lots, especially the new ones I haven't done before. Even though routes are pretty much set for this year, I keep going over and over it.....I don't know whats worse, preplowing, or after plowing plowing in your sleep, and then you feel like you didnt even sleep because you were just plowing more. What might be even worse is laying there thinking about posts on plowsite, i remembered this one....started on 1-1-09


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