# What are the most frustrating parts of owning your business?



## BossPlow614 (May 27, 2009)

Just curious to see what everyone else faces that drives them up the wall in the day-to-day operation of the snow & management sector of their biz. 

For us:

1. Customers that don't read the 5 page contract they signed and call/email as to why their property wasn't done within an hour of the snowfall stopping - page 1 clearly shows the timing for when their property is done, same with trigger depth, a 2" trigger will only be done when there's 2" of snow! Not 1", not 1.75", etc.

2. Invoicing - Quickbooks is great but having to convert 40-50 invoices to PDF's after each event and/or each month, then upload them as an attachment to each email message to a customer is a pain

3. Routing - my accounts are a mix of commercial & residential. The timing of storms greatly affects what property is serviced when - some commercial are zero tolerance, need to be plowed when there's a specific amount by 4am in order for the property to open at 7am, etc. 
My employees sometimes don't think these things through so it's definitely time consuming to have to make changes to the excel sheets (job tracking sheet) before everyone heads out for the event.

How about you guys?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

For me personally (and I am no where near as large as most of you guys) it's getting guys for my sidewalk crew. We are about to get a storm and out of 6 guys I finally got a hold of the 3rd..luckily one of my managers has a few buddies that are going to fill in.

Also, all my guys wanting to make more money. They assume I make a huge stack of cash, but don't watch me spend hours doing paperwork, load and unload the truck with salt, shovels, yada yada. They also don't pay insurance. If you want to make so much more, then go start your own company!


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## Snow Commandor (Jan 30, 2011)

JMHConstruction;2082821 said:


> For me personally (and I am no where near as large as most of you guys) it's getting guys for my sidewalk crew. We are about to get a storm and out of 6 guys I finally got a hold of the 3rd..luckily one of my managers has a few buddies that are going to fill in.
> 
> Also, all my guys wanting to make more money. They assume I make a huge stack of cash, but don't watch me spend hours doing paperwork, load and unload the truck with salt, shovels, yada yada. They also don't pay insurance. If you want to make so much more, then go start your own company!


Ditto JMHC. My biggest problem is getting shovelers lined up to work. Add to that the fact that half my route doesn't require any major shoveling, so how do you justify paying a guy $25 an HR to just ride along in the truck half the time while you're going through the route?


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

The weather


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## BossPlow614 (May 27, 2009)

The weather affects everyone and we can't control it, so let's go with problems we can control - personnel, customers, administrative tasks, etc.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Employees. Got to the point this year I said screw it, cut back from 4 trucks, 2 skids, and a loader to 2 trucks and a part time loader. I do all my walks and fill in when needed. Sad part is I pay nearly double what my competition does for employees, but I can't find guys that will work.


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## info4tim (Oct 27, 2013)

beanz27;2083059 said:


> Employees. Got to the point this year I said screw it, cut back from 4 trucks, 2 skids, and a loader to 2 trucks and a part time loader. I do all my walks and fill in when needed. Sad part is I pay nearly double what my competition does for employees, but I can't find guys that will work.


Chasing my money of course!


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

BossPlow614;2082782 said:


> 2. Invoicing - Quickbooks is great but having to convert 40-50 invoices to PDF's after each event and/or each month, then upload them as an attachment to each email message to a customer is a pain


Do you know you can email an invoice or statement directly from QB?


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

BossPlow614;2082782 said:


> Just curious to see what everyone else faces that drives them up the wall in the day-to-day operation of the snow & management sector of their biz.
> 
> For us:
> 
> ...


You can email straight through quick books.

Look into maybe hindsight for routing


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow614;2082782 said:


> Just curious to see what everyone else faces that drives them up the wall in the day-to-day operation of the snow & management sector of their biz.
> 
> For us:
> 
> ...





BossPlow614;2083040 said:


> The weather affects everyone and we can't control it, so let's go with problems we can control - personnel, customers, administrative tasks, etc.


Just because it affects everyone and can't be controlled doesn't mean it isn't frustrating. For instance:

Is it going to accumulate?
How much is it going to accumulate? Just a salting app or full plow?
When will it end?
Will wraparound or lake effect kick in at 5 AM and cover everything we have clear?
(today) How much freezing rain are we going to get? How much salt should I order? Do I have enough salt? Will we be able to make 2 rounds once the roads turn to crap?

No, I can't control it, but it sure frustrates me.

Additionally, customers and employees are frustrations.


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

BossPlow614;2082782 said:


> 2. Invoicing - Quickbooks is great but having to convert 40-50 invoices to PDF's after each event and/or each month, then upload them as an attachment to each email message to a customer is a pain


Haven't read the full thread, sorry if this is addressed already BUT Quick Books Online does this for you. All you have to do is fill out the invoice and press send. It automatically fills in the message and converts to PDF.


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## Snow Commandor (Jan 30, 2011)

KildonanSnowRem;2083257 said:


> Haven't read the full thread, sorry if this is addressed already BUT Quick Books Online does this for you. All you have to do is fill out the invoice and press send. It automatically fills in the message and converts to PDF.


Yes, as many others have said, QB emails your invoices without having to jump through hoops. Just one click and you can email a whole batch of invoices @ once!


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## BossPlow614 (May 27, 2009)

info4tim;2083084 said:


> Chasing my money of course!


I can't say this is much of an issue for us at all. The contract is very detailed and we stop service if their bill (net 15) becomes 10 days past due. This works very well especially when there's a bigger storm coming.



Whiffyspark;2083111 said:


> You can email straight through quick books.
> 
> Look into maybe hindsight for routing





Wilnip;2083096 said:


> Do you know you can email an invoice or statement directly from QB?





KildonanSnowRem;2083257 said:


> Haven't read the full thread, sorry if this is addressed already BUT Quick Books Online does this for you. All you have to do is fill out the invoice and press send. It automatically fills in the message and converts to PDF.


I am using QB's desktop version for Mac & don't use the Mac's email system, I use the one from my web host.

I'll look into QB online.



Mark Oomkes;2083125 said:


> Just because it affects everyone and can't be controlled doesn't mean it isn't frustrating. For instance:
> 
> Is it going to accumulate?
> How much is it going to accumulate? Just a salting app or full plow?
> ...


There really aren't many solutions to fixing the issues with weather since this is a weather based industry.

What about customers & employees cause frustration?


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Same old same old- getting a reliable sidewalk crew. We only get 10 or so events so I use relatives and fellow self employed contractors.Its the most stressful part of the whole operation.Plus half the time the 4 of us plowing are getting out and clearing walks when we should be plowing when the crew gets behind! Glad its switching to rain tonight!


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

BossPlow614;2083580 said:


> I can't say this is much of an issue for us at all. The contract is very detailed and we stop service if their bill (net 15) becomes 10 days past due. This works very well especially when there's a bigger storm coming.
> 
> I am using QB's desktop version for Mac & don't use the Mac's email system, I use the one from my web host.
> 
> ...


Don't need quick books online, what year quick books are you using? It works through your Web host not thru anything else


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

I just tested it on my qb13 desktop edition and it's fine. Nothing's changed


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Triple L;2083739 said:


> Don't need quick books online, what year quick books are you using? It works through your Web host not thru anything else


x2 on that. Must be an old version?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I had 2 seasonal accounts that didn't pay for Dec (they were due by the 10th), One I serviced on the 1st and 16th, then when the Jan. invoice was sent out on the 23rd I suspended service till paid. The other is a minimal service contract for 4" or once/week service. It snowed on the 1st, but not 4", so I waited till the 7th (one week) when I got there it was done. The second service would have been the 16th, but didn't do it due to non payment

My sub frustrates me. He is overly cautious, and not very mechanical, every event I am running to hold his hand about something he should be able to handle. 

Small mechanical issues, blown fuses, fouled spark plugs, hood latch that won't release to change the fuse. Flat tire on a trailer. Garage door frozen to the ground.
Even broke the reclining seat latch in my truck (I backed into a tree, with the rear bumper, no damage to truck or tree.)

Thankful my problems are small ones, but still frustrating.


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## unimog-guy (Sep 3, 2014)

Snow Commandor;2082837 said:


> Ditto JMHC. My biggest problem is getting shovelers lined up to work. Add to that the fact that half my route doesn't require any major shoveling, so how do you justify paying a guy $25 an HR to just ride along in the truck half the time while you're going through the route?


SC,

Why don't you do what a local lawn company did to me when I was 18.... He didn't pay overtime until after 50hrs worked. He figured out during the course of a 40 hr work week we rode around for 10hrs. I understood and didn't have a problem with it.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Good luck explaining that to the department of labor when the wrong guy gets pissed off and turns you in.

On the clock is on the clock, doesn't matter if it's billable hours or driving hours.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

John_DeereGreen;2085828 said:


> Good luck explaining that to the department of labor when the wrong guy gets pissed off and turns you in.
> 
> On the clock is on the clock, doesn't matter if it's billable hours or driving hours.


X2. Gotta pay OT after 40 unless salery. Damn I should take myself off of salery! lol


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

leigh;2083733 said:


> Same old same old- getting a reliable sidewalk crew. We only get 10 or so events so I use relatives and fellow self employed contractors.Its the most stressful part of the whole operation.Plus half the time the 4 of us plowing are getting out and clearing walks when we should be plowing when the crew gets behind! Glad its switching to rain tonight!


All my business is in the winter is a sidewalk crew. In the last storm (Monday) we had about 3/4 of hard ice and sleet. I went out and pretreated about 10 hrs before we got called out, but never got the phone call to go out again! I was out (not including pretreat and salting a few hours after) for 24 hrs. We ending up getting 3 more inches of snow. I have one property that needs a skid steer on it anyway, but they put me there. We fell so behind on that I wanted to shoot my self in the head. I felt bad for the plow guy cause he had to keep coming and leaving because we weren't done. I lost every single guy that storm! And it was only our first. I was more exhausted from stress than even being in the cold busting ass for that long. I hate having to count on guys to get s**t done in such terrible conditions. After so many hours on these tough jobs they don't care how much they're making.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

John_DeereGreen;2085828 said:


> Good luck explaining that to the department of labor when the wrong guy gets pissed off and turns you in.
> 
> On the clock is on the clock, doesn't matter if it's billable hours or driving hours.


Travel time could be considered straight time or you could just start their pay once they have arrived to each the job site. Of course if they have a company truck you will have to pay the driver.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

LapeerLandscape;2085859 said:


> Travel time could be considered straight time or you could just start their pay once they have arrived to each the job site. Of course if they have a company truck you will have to pay the driver.


That's not legal. You can technically start once you get to the first site. But even in my opinion it's f ' Ed up. National company doesn't pay landscaping crew until hey get to 1st site. I said what if we have an accident in your truck and we're not clocked in?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

unimog-guy;2085639 said:


> SC,
> 
> Why don't you do what a local lawn company did to me when I was 18.... He didn't pay overtime until after 50hrs worked. He figured out during the course of a 40 hr work week we rode around for 10hrs. I understood and didn't have a problem with it.


Doesn't matter if you have a problem with it. DOL does.



John_DeereGreen;2085828 said:


> Good luck explaining that to the department of labor when the wrong guy gets pissed off and turns you in.
> 
> On the clock is on the clock, doesn't matter if it's billable hours or driving hours.


^^^What he said^^^



LapeerLandscape;2085859 said:


> Travel time could be considered straight time or you could just start their pay once they have arrived to each the job site. Of course if they have a company truck you will have to pay the driver.


I'm not totally sure I'm following this. If under 40 hours, yes, you can have 2 different pay rates, but when you hit 40 hours, it's OT.



Whiffyspark;2085860 said:


> That's not legal. You can technically start once you get to the first site. But even in my opinion it's f ' Ed up. National company doesn't pay landscaping crew until hey get to 1st site. I said what if we have an accident in your truck and we're not clocked in?


I don't understand the whole trying to cheap out on employees thing. They do the work, pay them the money.

What aboot a separate shovel crew?


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

They don't care. It's all about money. They did it to every crew. So if I got stuck in traffic going to a site in DC I didn't get paid for 3 hours until we got there. 

I had another employee that had job clocks. He asked us to clock out at 430 no matter where we were. I said I'm clocking out when I'm back to the shop and going home. He said that's not how it works. I told him to go fly a ******* kite. Never heard another word about it lol


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Whiffyspark;2085860 said:


> That's not legal. You can technically start once you get to the first site. But even in my opinion it's f ' Ed up. National company doesn't pay landscaping crew until hey get to 1st site. I said what if we have an accident in your truck and we're not clocked in?


So its not legal but companies that you worked for are doing it. Did you take them to court and win is my question.

And no we do not run our company this way.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Round about question....

Who pays their subs travel time between lots?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

1olddogtwo;2086034 said:


> Round about question....
> 
> Who pays their subs travel time between lots?


^ is that a "trick" question.
You don't...
That is their bosses issue as they are not my employees.
They are the employees of the company you hired, their wage is not your business.

I guess the subcontractor should bid his work properly to reflect the cost of employees.

if I'm driving your truck your paying for every minute or I'll just shut if off and get a ride home.
If a boss clocked me out a call to the Dept of jobs and labor or the union fixes it rather quickly. (yes, I have gone after overtime pay and revived such pay.)

If your subbing for a national, their travel time pay is in your bid price.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

LapeerLandscape;2086033 said:


> So its not legal but companies that you worked for are doing it. Did you take them to court and win is my question.
> 
> And no we do not run our company this way.


I didn't work for the national company after he told me that. That ain't right in my opinion. His response was simply "everyone does it". He couldn't answer my question about an accident either

How is it legal to work be working hourly, driving a company truck full of people for free? And hats after you load the truck up every morning. I expect to be paid when I get to work - meaning I arrive at the shop. At least that's just my opinion.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

SnoFarmer;2086036 said:


> ^ is that a "trick" question.
> You don't...
> That is their bosses issue as they are not my employees.
> They are the employees of the company you hired, their wage is not your business.


We pay our subs on an hourly basis including travel time. They are out on our behalf and on call 24/7. Treat them fairly and they will be there a long time for you.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

John_DeereGreen;2085828 said:


> Good luck explaining that to the department of labor when the wrong guy gets pissed off and turns you in.
> 
> On the clock is on the clock, doesn't matter if it's billable hours or driving hours.


This is a dangerous game these days, Labor board is no joke.


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

BossPlow614;2082782 said:


> 2. Invoicing - Quickbooks is great but having to convert 40-50 invoices to PDF's after each event and/or each month, then upload them as an attachment to each email message to a customer is a pain


You shouldn't have to do that - if you set the preferred send method in the customer's file to e-mail and have a valid e-mail address in their info, the program will set it all up automatically. Then, you just go to the Reminders List and send the e-mails listed there.

There's also a box you can check on the invoice screen "to be emailed".

Depends on what version you're using too, probably.

If may only work with Outlook as your e-mail program.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Herm Witte;2086044 said:


> We pay our subs on an hourly basis including travel time. They are out on our behalf and on call 24/7. Treat them fairly and they will be there a long time for you.


sound, like there employees to me.

you are exerting to much control over them.

a sub, is a stand alone company that your company hires.
Thus they should not be paid by you at all but by the company they work for.

in the states anyway...https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Smal...ependent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee

http://www.dol.gov/whd/#


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

SnoFarmer;2086050 said:


> sound, like there employees to me.
> 
> you are exerting to much control over them.
> 
> ...


All our subs are employees of other "Stand Alone" contracting firms. They charge me an hourly rate for their service and I pay them. I do not provide fuel, repairs, insurance, workers comp, etc. They provide certificates stating such. FYI, many contracting firms charge portal to portal which is what travel time is. So here I am defending my operation when the original question was; "Who pays their subs travel time?" I am curious what made you think differently?  So now you have it. Happy New Year!


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

No trick question was intended.

We paid from time clocked in til time clocked out. 

I know some companies don't, just wondering, don't need to bring big brother into it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Why are you paying the employees of another company
travel time?
You have no control at to how, what or when their employees get paid.


This company you hired is already charging you, be it by the hr or job, makes no difference as they still are not your employees.

You may be working/creating a grey area...and possibly truing them into employees by handing each of their employees monies for anything.

ps
How do you pay them ?
Out Of pocked, petty cash, or from your payroll?
Do you give each of them a w2 or a 1099 for this travel time pay YOU pay to your "sub" contractors employees?


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

SnoFarmer;2086081 said:


> Why are you paying the employees of another company
> travel time?
> You have no control at to how, what or when their employees get paid.
> 
> ...


Re read both my posts. I never and repeat never said (wrote) that I was paying the employees of the firms I use as legit subcontractors. Do not read into something that is not there.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

1olddogtwo;2086078 said:


> No trick question was intended.
> 
> We paid from time clocked in til time clocked out.
> 
> I know some companies don't, just wondering, don't need to bring big brother into it.


Same here. I get paid first snow flake to whenever we're done cleaning. If it's supposed to be a bad storm they will put us in a hotel before and during the storm


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## 2005STX (Jan 7, 2014)

FredG;2086047 said:


> This is a dangerous game these days, Labor board is no joke.


This is so true. Had the DOL investigate me and my dads constructiom/snow removal business after we did a small job on a union building and it was hell. took over a year lawyers and a lot of paperwork to get it fixed. When you get investigated its worse than getting audited by the irs. They dig into everything. I thought it was a joke when it was first happening then we soon realized it wasn't. All my guys have been with us for years and I tend took try and look at it like a family. I want to make money but I want them to be happy to cause then they will always be there when you need them. Doesn't work for everyone but it works for us


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

My subs have always been paid travel time.

Same situation as Herm.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

Mark Oomkes;2086129 said:


> My subs have always been paid travel time.
> 
> Same situation as Herm.


As long as you're making money, this is great since it ensures the sub sticks to the route. If they aren't paid travel, I'd worry that his bosses would send him other places in between sites. Port to port guarantees someone dedicated to your route. A good sub cares just as much about your company as you do...in my opinion.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

The one thing that frustrates me is when employees don't take the extra 5 minutes to make a job perfect or just take a drive around site to make sure everything is done. It's the little things that keep customers happy.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

I find this too . I have to check places to make sure they are done right .


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

*Good job!*



JD Dave;2086182 said:


> The one thing that frustrates me is when employees don't take the extra 5 minutes to make a job perfect or just take a drive around site to make sure everything is done. It's the little things that keep customers happy.


Man! I could beat my head against a wall some days. How do you look around after you're done and think "YEAH! THAT LOOKS GREAT!"

Over and over, I am saying, " They pay us a premium price, they expect a primo job. Go do that again."

My only employee is my 15 y.o. nephew, BTW. He thinks he wants to take over the business one day. I tell him, "not when you shovel like that."

On a unrelated topic, can someone tell me how to do multiple quotes in a reply?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

One of the other service guys in my area, doesn't pay his worker's drive time. I know this is wrong. They are employee's, they certainly aren't independent (sub) contractors.

One of my friends owns a tree service.. They would start the day meeting at the shop, and then go fuel up the trucks and start their day.
He began to notice that the fuel stop began to get longer and longer. Bathroom, cigarettes, pop and snacks, ordering pizza, etc.
It was costing him an hour, times 5 guys.

He switched to filling the trucks at the end of the day, and eliminated the C-store stop in the morning completely.

When I did have employee's, I paid them from the time we got in the truck till we got back to the shop. I would deduct a 1/2 hour for our lunch stop.

My subs make a percentage of what I bill from their work. So if they want to drive circles around town, and stop to chat up the graveyard waitress at Denny's, or whatever. It doesn't matter to me, as long as the works done, and done right, and on time. I don't care.

My subs have so far only been sole proprietor operations, like myself. So I know there never was a lot of that going on.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

jonniesmooth;2086281 said:


> Man! I could beat my head against a wall some days. How do you look around after you're done and think "YEAH! THAT LOOKS GREAT!"
> 
> Over and over, I am saying, " They pay us a premium price, they expect a primo job. Go do that again."
> 
> ...


How's is your nephew your only employee? The signature line shows you run multiple trucks & tractors.. All the operators would be your employees.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I pay my employee for their lunch and drive time while we're shoveling snow. When I'm building in the summer I don't pay for lunch, but we have a set time every day we leave and come back. When were shoveling we eat fast and usually on the way to another job. With employees from what I have been told, you have to pay from when they start working to when they leave for home (other than breaks). Any drive time would have to be paid along with gas reimbursement if they're using their vehicles.

In the passed I had 1 sub that would help with walks. He would use his truck, his gas, and his 1 other guy. I would rent him my blower and deduct it from his pay. Payed him a set amount per property, not hourly, so his lunches and drive time was on him. I don't feel like a subcontractor who runs his business should get paid from the contractor to drive around. He should know his expenses, therefore they should be included in the jobs he quotes he gave me. If I subbed an electrician to wire a fan or lights on a porch, I wouldn't pay him to drive to the job and then to home depot because he forgot a screwdriver. He should have that all in the price we originally talked about.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

blowerman;2086294 said:


> How's is your nephew your only employee? The signature line shows you run multiple trucks & tractors.. All the operators would be your employees.


I have multiple trucks. The 1 ton (for the winter) is permanently hooked to the trailer that has one tractor on it. If I want to take the tractor, I don't have to hook up the trailer, I just get in the other truck. One truck gets a pallet of bagged salt put in it, when I need to salt, I put the spreader on and drive that truck, don't need to take time to load salt. And I don't have to carry the salt (blocking my rear view) when I don't need it. If a truck breaks down, I go get in another one, finish my route, fix the other truck later.

My sub leases a truck, trailer and tractor from me. 
and I used to lease a truck to another, he went into the insurance biz.


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## BossPlow614 (May 27, 2009)

Well thanks for ruining an otherwise constructive thread. 

I rly don't give a sh!t about this discussion but here's my take on it - I worked for a company for two weeks when I was 18 and the scumbag owner didn't pay for the return trip. Guess how we treated his trucks on the drive home? Wide open throttle from every stop sign & light with a 10,000 lb trailer behind it. That's a great way to have your trucks' powertrain get completely destroyed very quickly to save maybe $50 per day. 

For the scumbags that don't pay their EMPLOYEES to be in their trucks at any time, I wish nothing but the DOL to come after their company and clean them out. There was a tree/landscape install company in MN recently that got audited by the DOL and was required to pay back $500k in payroll taxes and fines because they classified a bunch of employees as subcontractors. They got what they deserved. Treat your employees with respect, they're the ones working their a$$es off & directly generating the revenue for your company.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow614;2086525 said:


> Well thanks for ruining an otherwise constructive thread.
> 
> Call it the frustrations of government regulations.
> 
> ...


................


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

BossPlow614;2086525 said:


> Well thanks for ruining an otherwise constructive thread.
> 
> I rly don't give a sh!t about this discussion but here's my take on it - I worked for a company for two weeks when I was 18 and the scumbag owner didn't pay for the return trip. Guess how we treated his trucks on the drive home? Wide open throttle from every stop sign & light with a 10,000 lb trailer behind it. That's a great way to have your trucks' powertrain get completely destroyed very quickly to save maybe $50 per day.
> 
> For the scumbags that don't pay their EMPLOYEES to be in their trucks at any time, I wish nothing but the DOL to come after their company and clean them out. There was a tree/landscape install company in MN recently that got audited by the DOL and was required to pay back $500k in payroll taxes and fines because they classified a bunch of employees as subcontractors. They got what they deserved. Treat your employees with respect, they're the ones working their a$$es off & directly generating the revenue for your company.


This is something that is frustrating about the industry. Off topic, yes, but it does have to do a little with the thread. It's pretty rare for a thread to stay 100% on topic here, and when it does it usually dies out within 2 days. It's something to read to pass the time. It's not a question about a problem with a plow or truck that is keeping someone from performing their duties, so let the thread just be a time passer.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2086619 said:


> ................


he hehe he


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

1olddogtwo;2086034 said:


> Round about question....
> 
> Who pays their subs travel time between lots?


I pay from when they leave home till return, if they live in town. Employees when they get to shop or when I pick them up till our return to shop. I've never had a sub leave me unless they moved out of the area. But I pay better than most, but good every now and then. Treat them right and they stay. Make a bit less but it's worth the stress reduction.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

There seems to be confusion on subcontactor pay. Some is done per push, some is done hourly. When I do hourly work for a company they get billed from arrival at property 1 until the final property in done, per MY contract that they sign. Flat rate "per push" properties do not get billed travel time.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

What I mean is, hourly billing does not make one an employee.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Diesel Dan;2105169 said:


> What I mean is, hourly billing does not make one an employee.


That would be called: Time and Material Billing.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

beanz27;2086917 said:


> I pay from when they leave home till return, if they live in town. Employees when they get to shop or when I pick them up till our return to shop. I've never had a sub leave me unless they moved out of the area. But I pay better than most, but good every now and then. Treat them right and they stay. Make a bit less but it's worth the stress reduction.


What else do you do?
Tell them how to plow the lot?
What other controls ?

So you had a business that came to you and said.
You will pay me X an hr.
From start to finish and we start at your shop as opposed as to when they leave theirs.

Sounds like they migh be your employees.
You may be exhibiting to much control over this business employes.
If you haven't crossed the line you could be standing on it.
Do a search.
Irs, employee vs subcontractor.

Ps yes if there driving your truck from site to site ,yea, their working,
It's called moving your equipment.
No pay,
And I'll go do what I want untill the money is flowing again.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

SnoFarmer;2105387 said:


> What else do you do?
> Tell them how to plow the lot?
> What other controls ?
> 
> ...


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

leigh;2105400 said:


> I don't think hiring a sub to plow is any different than when any company hires trucks to work on a project.If we're paving for instance we tell sub when they need to arrive,we direct them when and how much asphalt to pick up,how we want them to load paver etc.At end of day give them their 90$ an hr.Not any different plowing- this is the lot,it needs to be serviced x way per contract, needs to be serviced at x time.Go do it! Of course they're subs.


like I said your standing in the line if not over it.

and I guess you didn't go to the IRS site?
here is a link,
https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Smal...ependent-Contractor-Self-Employed-or-Employee

everyone should read that^.

the issue, is how much control your over them.

"The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not what will be done and how it will be done
You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed."
Your not the subcontractors employee's employer.

"Common Law Rules

Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:

Behavioral: Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?
Financial: Are the business aspects of the worker's job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)
Type of Relationship: Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?

Businesses must weigh all these factors when determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor. Some factors may indicate that the worker is an employee, while other factors indicate that the worker is an independent contractor. There is no "magic" or set number of factors that "makes" the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another.

The keys are to look at the entire relationship, consider the degree or extent of the right to direct and control, and finally, to document each of the factors used in coming up with the determination."

just say'en,,,a lot of us cross the line,


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

SnoFarmer;2105419 said:


> like I said your standing in the line if not over it.
> 
> and I guess you didn't go to the IRS site?
> here is a link,
> ...


I hear you.Can you imagine if the IRS went after all the Nationals? The whole industry would change.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Getting paid...that is the most difficult part
I always say labor business is a 3 part process, 1 is getting the work 2 is doing the work 3 is getting paid for the work all almost equally difficult


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

leigh;2105466 said:


> I hear you.Can you imagine if the IRS went after all the Nationals? The whole industry would change.


Thumbs Up
It would effect a lot of industry's..


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

*I was waiting for this*



SnoFarmer;2105419 said:


> like I said your standing in the line if not over it.
> 
> and I guess you didn't go to the IRS site?
> here is a link,
> ...


It's the IRS that determines the relationship. Farmer when I read this several years ago it when even further. It said to send in the information about your relationship and an agent would get back to you in 3-6 months with a decision.

Now for a side story that's related to this:

I have a friend that bought his dad's tree service. The unemployment dept. said he was starting a new business and.... had to pay the higher rates.

The worker's comp. ins. co. said he was taking over an existing business and....had to pay the higher rate.

I know they aren't apples to apples comparisons.

But, if you submitted the identical info ten different times to ten different agents you would get ten different answers.


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