# Help teach about salting



## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I apologize in advance, I'm sure there are threads on this site about this topic already. I have no idea what to search for, and what I have searched, I can't seem to find what I'm looking for.

With only a few years under my belt running my sidewalk crew I can move some snow like crazy. I work as a sub for a larger landscaping company who provides the melt, so I'm sorry I do not remember what type of ice melt is used. In the past I thought more of ice melt as something to put down to melt the left over snow, any more snow falling, and obviously ice. I didn't realize the complexity of putting it down. In the past I have just opened my spreader and walked at a decent pace, then went on to the next job. As I learn the business I have realized that weather, temp, day/night, and other factors determine the ice melt amounts and what types of ice melt to use. I was wondering if anyone knows a website, video, thread, etc. of a teaching tool about how much salt to put down and when?


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Go liquid and never look at anything else again.


But, you'll still need to use occasional rock salt for the high moisture snow and freezing rain conditions.

Here is three Google search terms.

Road Salt or Rock Salt
Liquid De-icers
Calcium Chloride


........


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

White Gardens;1618356 said:


> Go liquid and never look at anything else again.
> 
> But, you'll still need to use occasional rock salt for the high moisture snow and freezing rain conditions.
> 
> ...


Have to disagree here for one reason only, ( besides the fact that you directly contradicted yourself in the the second sentence  ) There is more to using rock salt than just traction and ice melting. The customer is able to "see" what he or she is paying for. Liquid is an excellent tool, but you have to be good at selling it, and you also have to have customers that are intelligent enough to realize it's benefits, even when they cant physically see it on the ground (other than the fact that there is no ice). Liquid also requires additional equipment designed to store and apply it, where salt you can dump in the bed of a truck and apply by hand using a scoop or a shovel.

For someone just starting out in the deicing application side, I would suggest a treated salt product such as magic salt, or something similar. You dont have to use as much as straight salt, allowing you to stay out longer between refills, at the same time being more effective, reducing labor and fuel costs, and you can charge a little more too....


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Or just use Peladow


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm kind of in the same about not knowing how much to apply. personally I've just used my best judgement and have figured it out on my own. 

I have a small commercial lot I do and when I salt I use a walkbehind spreader and I used 50 lbs bags of an ice melt product. 

when I actually plow the lot the only thing the client wants salted is the entrance. I know how many bags I use on the entrance and I just divided the rest of the lot into sections of that same size and now I have a rough idea of how many bags I need to salt the whole lot. 

in my personal opinion if I can't see the salt starting to work by the time I am ready to leave the lot I probably didn't put enough down.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

You'll have to learn by trial and error.There're are so many variables involved.One thing you can do is take the time to return to sites and see the results and add that to your memory and experience.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

This might not be helpful cause it's a local site out here but it can't hurt...http://www.smartaboutsalt.com/


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## badblue93 (Dec 16, 2013)

BossPlow2010;1618541 said:


> Or just use Peladow


I just started using Peladow on a commercial lot(/contract). I can get everything to to turn to slush but that is it. I can not get that totally clean lot like I can with rock salt. I have commercial lots that are 4x the size of this new one. I calculated the amount of Peladow to be used at the same rate as my rock salt application rate. I still can not get this lot cleared for the life of me.

Any hints?


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## canadiantowman (Sep 10, 2008)

I work for a very large company and they could not sell liquid if there life depended on it. Had it on my truck for 3 years now and have never used it. I know they keep telling me that in the next 3 to 5 years they have to be using a third less of the salt we use now.


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## firelwn82 (Feb 14, 2006)

how about you guys stop being whiny little girls and help this guy out. this is a forum to help people.. How about you help him or stop hijacking his thread... For gosh sakes how old are you people???


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## badblue93 (Dec 16, 2013)

SIMA is a huge organization that can help with all your snow training. They are also on our side to help change laws in our favor. They have an online school that covers everything.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

ducaticorse;1618528 said:


> Have to disagree here for one reason only, ( besides the fact that you directly contradicted yourself in the the second sentence  ) There is more to using rock salt than just traction and ice melting. The customer is able to "see" what he or she is paying for. Liquid is an excellent tool, but you have to be good at selling it, and you also have to have customers that are intelligent enough to realize it's benefits, even when they cant physically see it on the ground (other than the fact that there is no ice). Liquid also requires additional equipment designed to store and apply it, where salt you can dump in the bed of a truck and apply by hand using a scoop or a shovel.
> 
> For someone just starting out in the deicing application side, I would suggest a treated salt product such as magic salt, or something similar. You dont have to use as much as straight salt, allowing you to stay out longer between refills, at the same time being more effective, reducing labor and fuel costs, and you can charge a little more too....


Liquid is good to apply on top of the rock salt to get the salt to start working faster.
White gardens is right on Liquid if you are applying it to fresh clean walks or a pre treatment.
Now if walks been walk on all day and is pack down then you need rock salt. But I never use rock salt on walks its to hard on the walks surface will use liquid Salt/Cal mix.

To Op stay with Icemelt on walks its safer for the walks and wont plug up your push spreader salt can get clumpy if get wet with low temps.


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## frue (Dec 17, 2007)

JMHConstruction;1618333 said:


> I apologize in advance, I'm sure there are threads on this site about this topic already. I have no idea what to search for, and what I have searched, I can't seem to find what I'm looking for.
> 
> With only a few years under my belt running my sidewalk crew I can move some snow like crazy. I work as a sub for a larger landscaping company who provides the melt, so I'm sorry I do not remember what type of ice melt is used. In the past I thought more of ice melt as something to put down to melt the left over snow, any more snow falling, and obviously ice. I didn't realize the complexity of putting it down. In the past I have just opened my spreader and walked at a decent pace, then went on to the next job. As I learn the business I have realized that weather, temp, day/night, and other factors determine the ice melt amounts and what types of ice melt to use. I was wondering if anyone knows a website, video, thread, etc. of a teaching tool about how much salt to put down and when?


Hello, I see it has happened again. No one to answer your question. I talked extensively on this subject two weeks ago in a thread called calculating salt. If you look it up I think you will find everything your looking for. Pm if you need additional


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## mdsnowremovalpw (Dec 2, 2013)

I would suggest that you try different salts and find one that works the way you think it should. I went through a few different ones before I found one that worked the way i thought it should. If you want to get into liquid deicer offer a couple of customers a FREE application and if its not for them go back and put down salt.


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

Any body good with the science behind this? What I mean can you explain how the salt/ ice melt stops the ice from bonding to cement or asphalt?


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## arathol (Dec 22, 2013)

Chineau;1693077 said:


> Any body good with the science behind this? What I mean can you explain how the salt/ ice melt stops the ice from bonding to cement or asphalt?


 The salt turms to salt brine, and the layer of salt brine is what stops the bonding process by acting as a barrier between the pavement and the snow/ice. The brine layer does have to be maintained by reapplication periodically though.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

arathol;1693172 said:


> The salt turms to salt brine, and the layer of salt brine is what stops the bonding process by acting as a barrier between the pavement and the snow/ice. The brine layer does have to be maintained by reapplication periodically though.


^^^this is true^^^


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

arathol;1693172 said:


> The salt turms to salt brine, and the layer of salt brine is what stops the bonding process by acting as a barrier between the pavement and the snow/ice. The brine layer does have to be maintained by reapplication periodically though.


Yes, there is a chemical process that takes place I want to be able to explain it that way. The brine does something to the water molecule that inhibits it's ability to bond. Why?


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## Fantastic (Dec 2, 2012)

Salt lowers the freezing point of the water which allows the water to drain away... There's different percentages of salt that are for different applications... There's also a point where it gets too cold for salt to work effectively.


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## Fantastic (Dec 2, 2012)

Here's just a quick chemistry link...

http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingsworkfaqs/f/how-does-salt-melt-ice.htm


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## arathol (Dec 22, 2013)

Chineau;1693359 said:


> Yes, there is a chemical process that takes place I want to be able to explain it that way. The brine does something to the water molecule that inhibits it's ability to bond. Why?


There is no chemical process other than the salt turning to brine. The brine creates a layer that does not freeze, so the ice can't bond to the pavement.

Here is what happens-
There is always a freezing/melting action occurring on the surface of ice. As a result, at temperatures where salt will work the ice or snow has a tiny bit of water on the surface. This water gets absorbed by the salt crystals, which then dissolve and turn to brine. The brine solution contains salt solids at the smallest level, and these molecular particles keep the water from freezing. As the constant feezing/thawing action continues on the ice surface, more salt brine is produced and less liquid water is turned to ice. This cycle expands with time and eventually all of the ice is turned to liquid.

Here is a link that has a full explanation and some graphics that allow you to see how it works
http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/solutions/faq/why-salt-melts-ice.shtml


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

Thank you, both Fantastic and arathol exactly what i was asking, answered. I have book marked for through reading.


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## tyler_mott85 (Mar 2, 2008)

Does "pretreating" with granular do any good for the cost of the product or should you only put granular down on top of existing ice/snow?


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## arathol (Dec 22, 2013)

tyler_mott85;1699449 said:


> Does "pretreating" with granular do any good for the cost of the product or should you only put granular down on top of existing ice/snow?


 Depemds on where you put it. Generally if you put salt on a dry road it will blow off with traffic. Parking lots, driveways or sidewalks might be better.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

tyler_mott85;1699449 said:


> Does "pretreating" with granular do any good for the cost of the product or should you only put granular down on top of existing ice/snow?


Depends on the temps and time of day.1st storm this season started around 7 am. I pretreated all my lots(except 2) beforehand. Between temps in the upper 20's and the radiant heat from sun, even with clouds/snow falling the salt burned a lot of it off. I salted again at night and the only lots I had to plow were 2 I didn't salt. Also helps keep daytime snow from being packed down in heavy traffic areas. I get my salt cheap so I don't mind "wasting" 7 tons if it will cut down on plow times later. I'd say I pre-treat maybe 25% of the time.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

tyler_mott85;1699449 said:


> Does "pretreating" with granular do any good for the cost of the product or should you only put granular down on top of existing ice/snow?


Depends on what you are pretreating and with what...


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