# $2000/Mo for a K mart parking lot. 7 month contract.



## DesMoines2500 (Nov 1, 2012)

This is an offer a local Kmart has out there though may. Does this sound reasonable? I'm short on specifics about the lot itself.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

With no specifics yeah sounds like a great price. Good.post!


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## NorthernSvc's (Mar 12, 2006)

sign it sounds like a great deal....for them


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## John143 (Nov 2, 2011)

Are you sure it isn't a 1 year contract? I know K-Marts in my area are doing $2000.00 a month for 12 months with the option to re-new the following year providing you have a min, of 3 slip and falls with at least 2 insurance cancellations. They are also offering a added $1000.00 dollar bonus for complete no shows. Sounds like a good deal to me!! Id take their offer.


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

IDK how big the lots are by you, but ours are pretty large. Even at $2k for 12mos, snow only, a low cap, and not including salt there's no way I would touch it. 

That being said.......a brief rant. These lowball cheap prices are getting redic. They set the bar for years ahead, b/c the people that don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to buisness will do it for less and less money. (No offense to the OP here). For instance..........2 yrs ago I did a larger property. Per the customers requirements it was a 40" cap. I bid $64k per season, over a 5 month period. It went above the cap, I billed an extra month, yada yada. They paid, no ?'s asked and all was well. 

Now the good part.......................a scumbag I happen to know, went and did some digging. He harped on them, and found out my #'s. He then bids unlimited for $32k per year. Literally half. We didn't barely get any snow the following year, he did a horse sh!t job when he did show up, and still managed to bank on the deal. Mind you the year before, we worked our a$$es off for the $ and made an honest day's living. BUT......now, even though they were unhappy with the service, he "proved" that it could be done for less money. He was stupid enough to leave $$ on the table just to get the work. He lucked out, but screwed up the market from that point on. This year they took bids and didn't even consider looking at anything within reason. 

Snow has got to be one of the only business that works for less and less money every year. I've lost smaller properties ofer $10-15 before. Why is it every year we have to LOWER our prices, as fuel, employee pay, etc goes up?!

*rant off


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## DesMoines2500 (Nov 1, 2012)

Thanks for the responses and yes, I'm an idiot when it comes to plowing and I know it. I wish I had more specifics, but this was passed down from a friend. I basically bought a plow this year to do a few rental properties I own and I have a buddy that gets laid off every year once it snows who will use it to make cash on the side.

He brought this $2000/mo contract to my attention and seemed really pumped about it. I cautioned that this is a bigger job than he can handle and t's not even particularly close to his house. I'm mostly looking for reasons to talk him out of it.

Here's an Arial view of the lot with scale. Approx 12,000 sq meters, 130,000 sqft


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

Ok so that's about 3ac.........much smaller than ours locally. Looks like a pretty easy push. If it's a typical 5mo contract I'd probably pass on it, especially if there's no cap on the total accumulation. If it's 7 like you think, you're getting closer in pricing. Assuming you're salting, use 6-800lbs per ac in your calculating. I'm not going to do actual #s for you b/c there are way too many factors involved with different regions, but you should be able to figure out what your time is worth, what salt costs, how long it will take, and the amount of snow you get annually. 

To me it's still low, but I'm also not one guy in a truck. I have a lot more overhead, but its also something I could knock out in less than a couple hours. 1 or 2 trucks could not. NOW finally, make sure you are capable of doing it........under ALL circumstances. If you get hit with a 2' blizzard, will you be able to keep up? Is your truck capable of moving large amounts of snow? Are you qualified enough in a truck to handle something like this? Are you properly insured? I assume an account like this will have a 1 over 2 mil requirement for contractors insurance, and probably comp. 500k over 1mil if you're lucky. 

And trust me, this is advice, not criticism. I just want you to be prepared. Large lots and good money look good. But you'll bury yourself if you're not prepared for the worst.


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## John143 (Nov 2, 2011)

Do you guys have any loaders? A 7.6 foot plow isn't going to cut it! How about insurance? Got any? How many ton's of rock salt do you guys have stored? How many pallets of calcium do you have? How many guys do you have on your sidewalk crew? Do they all have workers comp? How many V-Box salt spreaders do you guys have lined up for this account? Do you have a quad with a plow for the walks? 

Not to be rude but it does not sound like you even have 1 tenth of the equipment needed for this account nor do you have the experience needed to handle a K-mart. Start off with some neighbors driveways first! Then move to a church parking lot or something a little bigger. Be advised taking on account such as a K-mart with no equipment and no experience only adds up to one thing! And it's not a big pay check! Lawsuit anyone? And you won't be the one doing the suing!! Say bye bye to you house and cars, trucks and your one (1) 7.6 foot plow!! Good luck!!


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## DesMoines2500 (Nov 1, 2012)

got-h2o;1510296 said:


> Ok so that's about 3ac.........much smaller than ours locally. Looks like a pretty easy push. If it's a typical 5mo contract I'd probably pass on it, especially if there's no cap on the total accumulation. If it's 7 like you think, you're getting closer in pricing. Assuming you're salting, use 6-800lbs per ac in your calculating. I'm not going to do actual #s for you b/c there are way too many factors involved with different regions, but you should be able to figure out what your time is worth, what salt costs, how long it will take, and the amount of snow you get annually.
> 
> To me it's still low, but I'm also not one guy in a truck. I have a lot more overhead, but its also something I could knock out in less than a couple hours. 1 or 2 trucks could not. NOW finally, make sure you are capable of doing it........under ALL circumstances. If you get hit with a 2' blizzard, will you be able to keep up? Is your truck capable of moving large amounts of snow? Are you qualified enough in a truck to handle something like this? Are you properly insured? I assume an account like this will have a 1 over 2 mil requirement for contractors insurance, and probably comp. 500k over 1mil if you're lucky.
> 
> And trust me, this is advice, not criticism. I just want you to be prepared. Large lots and good money look good. But you'll bury yourself if you're not prepared for the worst.


Based on what you're saying this is a non starter. We may be able to piggy back on subbing out as just one truck on it though. We don't even own a salter/sander.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. The truck is a 2000 Sierra 2500 with 175,000 miles and a 7.5' straight plow. I envisioned this truck just doing some light subbing or driveways to make some extra cash. My "partner" is more optimistic, unrealistically so IMO.

Thanks again.


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## DesMoines2500 (Nov 1, 2012)

John143;1510299 said:


> Do you guys have any loaders? A 7.6 foot plow isn't going to cut it! How about insurance? Got any? How many ton's of rock salt do you guys have stored? How many pallets of calcium do you have? How many guys do you have on your sidewalk crew? Do they all have workers comp? How many V-Box salt spreaders do you guys have lined up for this account? Do you have a quad with a plow for the walks?
> 
> Not to be rude but it does not sound like you even have 1 tenth of the equipment needed for this account nor do you have the experience needed to handle a K-mart. Start off with some neighbors driveways first! Then move to a church parking lot or something a little bigger. Be advised taking on account such as a K-mart with no equipment and no experience only adds up to one thing! And it's not a big pay check! Lawsuit anyone? And you won't be the one doing the suing!! Say bye bye to you house and cars, trucks and your one (1) 7.6 foot plow!! Good luck!!


Haha Thanks. This is exactly the type of response I was looking for!


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

Subbing that truck is the way to go. You will learn a lot by doing so and may be able to save some money for another truck next year. One other concern I didn't see anyone mentioning is what happens when you have a breakdown? Would you have someone else to cover the property? I just landed a 3 acre property. I have 3 trucks and a relationship with 2 other plowing companies that could lend a hand when needed and I'm still nervous. Growth is great if it's controlled.


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

Honestly I like your response. A lot of first timers would argue that they can do it regardless of what us seasoned plowers have to say. 

What type of connection do you have with them? Is it just your local store or is your buddy connected to them district wide, or even nationally?


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## DesMoines2500 (Nov 1, 2012)

Wilnip;1510334 said:


> Subbing that truck is the way to go. You will learn a lot by doing so and may be able to save some money for another truck next year. One other concern I didn't see anyone mentioning is what happens when you have a breakdown? Would you have someone else to cover the property? I just landed a 3 acre property. I have 3 trucks and a relationship with 2 other plowing companies and I'm still nervous. Growth is great if it's controlled.


I really appreciate these replies. FWIW, you're preaching to the choir at this point.

KISS, Keep it simple stupid is my personal motto, the responses here are exactly what I was looking for to reinforce my gut that he was attempting to bit off WAY more than we could chew.


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## TPC Services (Dec 15, 2005)

Whereas this one at, is it out by Jordan Creek Mall? I have a friend that plows two of them already and he's at a lot more a month then that. It's kind of strange that this one didn't go through corporate; I know they asked him for pricing not the other way around. The contract he's under is a 5 month and they are at a 1" snow fall call out. My question to you or your friend is how you plan on salting that lot without any equipment? Just to throughout a rough average $$ for salt most contractors around here are close to $200 a ton so around $600 a snow event times at least ten runs and you'll be at $6000 that leaves you $4000 to plow a minim 10 events for that place, if you don't get call backs to re salt. So you're anywhere from $400 or less to plow that place a snow storm. By the ways that looks to me and I know people will be different on time frame but we would be 2.5-3.5 hrs per truck for that lot with V plows 7'6" will take you a little bit longer. They are a salt only place. *WALK AWAY!* l'm with the others on here, if you or him have never plowed than how do you know how to plow it correctly? Not trying to be a smart butt but like the others have already said I would sub out this year and learn about where to pile snow, looking where the refreeze areas may occur and so on.... That place will be a slip and fall nightmare and if you get one claim you may end up losing everything!!


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## John143 (Nov 2, 2011)

TPC Services;1510408 said:


> That place will be a slip and fall nightmare and if you get one claim you may end up losing everything!!


Agree 100%!!!


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## gwhalen3 (Jan 15, 2010)

pass my man.


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## Wiedmann (Oct 16, 2012)

Did you end up tossing a bid out there for this Kmart? lol


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

DesMoines2500;1510067 said:


> This is an offer a local Kmart has out there though may. Does this sound reasonable? I'm short on specifics about the lot itself.


Spools seasonal prices are listed below , labor and material incl. from Dec.1,2012-April 1,2013

for 2000 sq. ft. in Buffalo

20,000 sq. ft. in Phila

40,000 sq. ft. in Kentucky

166 acres in South Fla.


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## badgerman (Nov 27, 2012)

For this price i would walk away also, However i plow a kmart it is not my account but i take care of this lot alone in just my truck it is very similar to this lot minis the curb island's and from start to finish on 3 inch event it takes 2 1/2 hours in a truck with 8 foot straight blade. when we get blizzard events its go time all day nonstop by the time you get lot done you need to start over at front again. in an event if you waited till you have 6 inches it wouldnt work so well this is where you would need a loader. but yes in 3 inch storm im leaving in 2 1/2 hours to do other accts.. its all about efficiency less backing up u do the better and faster it is, cant plow snow going backwards not only is it waste of time which equals $ but waste of fuel also.. but dont take this job your not equipped for it. The guy who im subbed to for this acct has big loader which usually stays at walmart but on a big event he'll bring it down to kmart.. to risky not having equipment


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## chachi1984 (Feb 10, 2012)

since you havent plowed before best to pass, but prob could be done with 2 trucks with atleast expandable plows, vbox salter,blowers.
but for 2000 a month and 2 guys not enough money


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## Snow Picasso (Dec 15, 2004)

DesMoines2500;1510287 said:


> Thanks for the responses and yes, I'm an idiot when it comes to plowing and I know it. I wish I had more specifics, but this was passed down from a friend. I basically bought a plow this year to do a few rental properties I own and I have a buddy that gets laid off every year once it snows who will use it to make cash on the side.
> 
> He brought this $2000/mo contract to my attention and seemed really pumped about it. I cautioned that this is a bigger job than he can handle and t's not even particularly close to his house. I'm mostly looking for reasons to talk him out of it.
> 
> Here's an Arial view of the lot with scale. Approx 12,000 sq meters, 130,000 sqft


Can you see the island that runs thru the middle of the lot? You can do the north side of that for 2k a month.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

It's doable for the right price, and even being a smaller business, you can do it.

Things you would need though are QUALITY subs.

But you get a 2' snow fall, and you might end up paying 2k+ to your subs.

Just something to consider.


.........


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

I service a K-mart that has a lot almost exactly the same size, with no islands in it.

I don't know how much snow you get out that way, but we get paid per push, and an average month is $7K


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

DesMoines2500;1510067 said:


> This is an offer a local Kmart has out there though may. Does this sound reasonable? I'm short on specifics about the lot itself.


one biggy will deplete all your resources and profit margin . spit the hook .Thumbs Up


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## cold_and_tired (Dec 18, 2008)

I know the decision has already been made about this lot but in my area of Colorado, you could make some serious money on it.

I had two 5-acre sites for years and made a lot of money on them at $2k a month. Each one got two loaders with 12' pushers and one truck or mini loader with a blade for detail work. The trick is to stop thinking about it as $2k a month and think of it as $10k a year. You will lose some months but you will come out way ahead during others.

I sold my business last summer and the guy that bought it is rolling in cash right now. He's bringing in $5,700 a month in seasonals and is spending next to nothing because we haven't had much snow this year.


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## cutbetterthanyo (Feb 3, 2010)

Not to get off the OP question ,but I see it here in this thread as in many others. If you have proper insurance, and are a legal bussiness, how can someone sue you and take everything you own? Not saying it can't happen, i'm just wondering how.


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## scott3430 (Dec 28, 2010)

cutbetterthanyo;1583165 said:


> Not to get off the OP question ,but I see it here in this thread as in many others. If you have proper insurance, and are a legal bussiness, how can someone sue you and take everything you own? Not saying it can't happen, i'm just wondering how.


Because they hire blood sucking, great white shark, lawyers.


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## cutbetterthanyo (Feb 3, 2010)

scott3430;1583228 said:


> Because they hire blood sucking, great white shark, lawyers.


I was just wondering because i was told thats why i paid to be a LLC. My tax guy said that if anything ever happened they can only take what the llc owns,not the person behind it. After all how can they take my house if my wife helps pay for it. Not that it couldn't put me out of bussines, but can they really attack me personally if something like that happened?


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

cutbetterthanyo;1583324 said:


> I was just wondering because i was told thats why i paid to be a LLC. My tax guy said that if anything ever happened they can only take what the llc owns,not the person behind it. After all how can they take my house if my wife helps pay for it. Not that it couldn't put me out of bussines, but can they really attack me personally if something like that happened?


If your LLC is set up correctly, they cannot go after your personal assets in a suit against the LLC. That's not to say that they could not name you individually in the suit as the president, etc.


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## kg26 (Feb 5, 2013)

When you say cap are you referring to the total amount of snow received for one winter season?


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

kg26;1586572 said:


> When you say cap are you referring to the total amount of snow received for one winter season?


i think he means "cap" the profit margin . right off the bat uncle sam gets 15% , should i continue ? ussmileyflag


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## kg26 (Feb 5, 2013)

Spool it up;1586587 said:


> i think he means "cap" the profit margin . right off the bat uncle sam gets 15% , should i continue ? ussmileyflag


please Commercial lingo is new to me.


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## Northeastsnow (Feb 10, 2013)

I plow a KMART here in my neck of the woods and we get 3500 per month with a 9 month contact. any thing over 12 inches goes to hourly rate... I really think you are giving them a great deal, you need to figure in your insurance, gas, wear and tear on truck... that picture of the lot looks pretty close to the one I do and we run a loader with a 12 ft pusher and 2 trucks to clear between spaces and other areas were loader cannot get...

Note: Suggest you go visit a couple of times before you submit a bid, you will get an idea of how crazy the lot will be during Saturday morning shopping and Sunday night shopping... The more research you do the more you will see your pricce is WAY to low and they will call you at the first flake to hit the ground causing you to lose money.... 

THINK BEFORE YOU LEAP INTO THIS....


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