# new to the game



## allseasonturf (Jan 17, 2016)

This is my first real winter in this business. I have 10 residential (including a cpa and a home daycare) accounts, and I walk blow them with ease. I own a new enclosed trailer but i dont pull it in winter. I load the blower in my truck with ramps which takes me less than a minute and im working. I have around 30 summer contracts going into my second mowing season and would like to ramp up my winter earnings in NW minnesota. I dont advertise because iv got all i can handle as of now. I would like to stay residential mainly, and I think that can work. Im averaging $80 an hour of work time, and most jobs are within 5 to 10 min drive time. I would like to slowly progress into using a compact tractor with front blower but not sure if thats economical as iv heard prices in the 20000 range for new... i have zero debt in the business, but realize that i cant do everything without spending money to make my job easier and faster to add more accounts. 
All my clients asked if i snow blow or plow and said that they dont want plowing because of guys in the past doing damage. I prefer throwing the snow but i know i am naive because it seems like when im out moving at 430, im about the only one throwing and not plowing.
I guess im just asking for some advice on what other guys in the industry would do in my current position? Would it be wise to invest in something like a john deere x700 series ( im not brand loyal, just have a jd dealer near me) with a blower or would i be wasting money on something smaller like that rather than spending the money on the compact tractor lines?
Iv got a lot of learning to do so thank you in advance for any help!!!


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

1st... Welcome!

Main thing here:

*You do not have to go into debt to grow or to make profit.*

#1 - Save your money
#2 - "Keeping up with the Jones'" = bad idea - do what makes profit not what everyone else does
#3 - If you have a niche, work it.
#4 - Save your money
#5 - Re invest in yourself

If people don't like plows, run with that, sounds like you have your niche. Niche's allow your profit to be higher typically as others don't do it.


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## allseasonturf (Jan 17, 2016)

Thank you for the quick response! Yeah i dont want the newest or best right off the blocks, but i want to make sure im working smarter AND harder rather than working harder not smarter. Thats why i want to run with the blowing instead of plowing. That and i only have a chev silv 1500 so it wouldn't handle it i dont think.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

If you do go the blower route for a tractor, make sure that there are actually blowers that will fit the tractor frame/HP. If you get a small sub compact usually there are a couple options but make sure first. If you will be trailering the tractor between sites make sure that the tractor can lift the snow blower high enough to clear the loading ramps. If you don't plan to trailer the tractor remember that a 10 min drive in the truck is much longer on the tractor. I have a JD 2305 with hydrostatic drive. In high gear I believe my max speed is 8 MPH.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

IF you choose to take the route of a sub compact tractor, I would find something used a few years old that you can afford. As long as it is in good shape with lower hours, those little tractors don't have to many parts to break. 

High overhead can kill you in a hurry. If you can do the same work with something that costs you money every month, not to mention if you have payments on it in the summer, but no work for it, it really hurts then.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Are you insured for snow removal? Granted, there is usually a lot less damage to people's property with a blower, but I would still cover my ass if it were me. Also, nothing against you whatsoever, but I hate when people refer to snow removal as a "game". To me it implies a casual attitude to a serious business. I've had my own contracts for many years, and I've also subbed, after I got tired of chasing my money. But in either capacity I've always tried to conduct myself in the most professional manner possible, leaving the client with a positive experience, and clients that want to use me again. I would stay away from any John Deere X series for professional snow removal. Their limits can be reached easily. Go with at least a S.C.U.T. IE: Kubota BX series, John Deere 1023-1025 series. They give you growth potential, like adding a front end loader, a 3pt blower, or box scraper. You would outgrow an X series quickly in a year or two after picking up more contracts. Best of luck to you.


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## allseasonturf (Jan 17, 2016)

I didn't mean to offend, I'm sorry for my choice of words. I feel the same way, customer support is frustrating if its horrible in any industry, and when you base your entire growth potential on word of mouth ( i haven't advertised yet) i try as hard as possible to give the customer what they want. Obviously within reason.
Thank you for the advice on outgrowing the smaller garden mowers. That's what I was thinking so thank you!!
Yes I am insured for snow, just no plowing was the wording and no associations or apartments or group homes. No way id tackle anything like that with my toro 928 anyways!!!


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Glad you're insured. It's the first sign of being professional and responsible.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

you will find that a compact mf will be a lower cost option, but a good sound tractor, try and get one with a cab and heater, worth it in nasty conditions
my 1125 is 32 hp. 4x4, will do about 12 on the highway


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## Bcwilson (Dec 14, 2016)

In all honesty I would refrain from large blowers on residential properties. Walk behinds and small garden tractors work perfectly fine. It's cheaper and less time consuming to load a couple blowers into your truck then having to untrailor a larger tractor. I run with 2 walk behinds, a push salt spreader, and a plow. My average time on a 2500 sq ft driveway with sidewalks is about 15-20 minutes. The overhead is going to cost more operating blowers as the maintenance is more frequent and parts are ridiculous prices for even small blowers sometimes in comparison to plows and shovels. However the name of the game is customer service so make them happy. Just be sure to charge more due to blowing being more laborious and time consuming. If you wanna increase your revenue over the winter then offer a discount to your current lawn service customers. Most people like dealing with companies they already know and offering a discount of 10-15% won't hurt you and it will potentially increase the amount of accounts you carry over into the winter season. Another thing you can do is keep track of what the average rate is for blowing in your area. I'll add a link that might help with that. 
http://snow-removal.promatcher.com
You can also add an employee if you haven't yet. A shoveler/extra blower will save you a ton of time which allows you to take on more jobs. You could also get into contact with larger plow outfits and offer to subcontract. That's what I did my first year. Don't buy anything brand new either. Being your first year your bound to break equipment. Well maintained used equipment is the best option so you don't sink yourself with large bills. Dealers can usually give you a decent deal with used equipment just be sure to talk them down on any price they give you. And get some magnets for your truck doors and have some professional business cards made for your company. Advertising is exposure every company needs to expand and grow. I don't know if your using a contract for winter but if your not then you should make one and be sure to research what you need to put in it. Make sure that you protect yourself and any assets you may have. Also make a liability waiver for commercial properties that don't want salt and require them to sign it before you do the job. A slip and fall lawsuit can bankrupt you.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Bcwilson said:


> In all honesty I would refrain from large blowers on residential properties. Walk behinds and small garden tractors work perfectly fine. It's cheaper and less time consuming to load a couple blowers into your truck then having to untrailor a larger tractor. I run with 2 walk behinds, a push salt spreader, and a plow. My average time on a 2500 sq ft driveway with sidewalks is about 15-20 minutes. The overhead is going to cost more operating blowers as the maintenance is more frequent and parts are ridiculous prices for even small blowers sometimes in comparison to plows and shovels. However the name of the game is customer service so make them happy. Just be sure to charge more due to blowing being more laborious and time consuming. If you wanna increase your revenue over the winter then offer a discount to your current lawn service customers. Most people like dealing with companies they already know and offering a discount of 10-15% won't hurt you and it will potentially increase the amount of accounts you carry over into the winter season. Another thing you can do is keep track of what the average rate is for blowing in your area. I'll add a link that might help with that.
> http://snow-removal.promatcher.com
> You can also add an employee if you haven't yet. A shoveler/extra blower will save you a ton of time which allows you to take on more jobs. You could also get into contact with larger plow outfits and offer to subcontract. That's what I did my first year. Don't buy anything brand new either. Being your first year your bound to break equipment. Well maintained used equipment is the best option so you don't sink yourself with large bills. Dealers can usually give you a decent deal with used equipment just be sure to talk them down on any price they give you. And get some magnets for your truck doors and have some professional business cards made for your company. Advertising is exposure every company needs to expand and grow. I don't know if your using a contract for winter but if your not then you should make one and be sure to research what you need to put in it. Make sure that you protect yourself and any assets you may have. Also make a liability waiver for commercial properties that don't want salt and require them to sign it before you do the job. A slip and fall lawsuit can bankrupt you.


Don't you still have to trailer your small garden tractor? Isn't that the same pain as loading/unloading a scut? A garden tractor has no place in commercial snow removal. It's a residential machine, not built for commercial purposes.


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## Bcwilson (Dec 14, 2016)

JustJeff said:


> Don't you still have to trailer your small garden tractor? Isn't that the same pain as loading/unloading a scut? A garden tractor has no place in commercial snow removal. It's a residential machine, not built for commercial purposes.


Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe he said he wanted to stay with more residential then commercial. He also doesn't want to pull a trailer so unless you can load your SCUT with ramps into a pickup then that's really not a cost effective option. If he is a one man op then a garden tractor works. 10 drives isn't that hard on equipment and a small mower is a cheap effective investment. He is attempting to free up time to be able to gain more capital. As his company grows so will the equipment being used. Not to mention he would have to get a deck over just haul what he gets. Then if he has to plow instead of throw he has to take time to remove the trailer and rehook. I don't know what kind of op you own but I'm damn sure it didn't use a commercial lot machine for residential driveways. Probably started like most of us using a blower, plow, and shovel. What's so wrong with starting small and working your way up? His name isn't even really out there and your suggesting that he goes $25000 in debt for a machine he's only going to use on a couple driveways? Poor advice.


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## Bcwilson (Dec 14, 2016)

Here's some question that none of us asked that we should have. How large are the driveways your doing? How many snow events a season does your area receive that require snow management? What's the average snowfall per event? What size truck are you running? What's the drive time aka unbillable time between your jobs? These are a few things that have to be taken into consideration before you invest your money in equipment that could potentially end up just sitting around because it's to large to do things like brick paver drives or drives that aren't in the best of shape. I've seen sub compacts rip up asphalt because there were small (6-8") holes and it hit them wrong. They also have so much power that they will chew up pavers and barely bump.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I've never chewed up anything I didn't want to with my sub compact. Guess it's all about the skill of the operator or lack there of. And I'm not sure how many options are available for a blower or blade for a riding mower. Just saying.


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## SPSully (Dec 7, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> If you do go the blower route for a tractor, make sure that there are actually blowers that will fit the tractor frame/HP.


THIS


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## Bcwilson (Dec 14, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> I've never chewed up anything I didn't want to with my sub compact. Guess it's all about the skill of the operator or lack there of. And I'm not sure how many options are available for a blower or blade for a riding mower. Just saying.


Very true. Skill does play a huge part in it. As far as a blade for a rider that is ludicrous. Jobs would take forever. A blower on the front of it is another story. And as far as the scut goes his customers want it blown. That scut can only get so close and it'll be to big for the most part to sidewalks. So what would be the point of running something like that when it takes forever to load and unload because it has to be transported and you still have to do a majority of the work with a small blower or shovel?


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Bcwilson said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe he said he wanted to stay with more residential then commercial. He also doesn't want to pull a trailer so unless you can load your SCUT with ramps into a pickup then that's really not a cost effective option. If he is a one man op then a garden tractor works. 10 drives isn't that hard on equipment and a small mower is a cheap effective investment. He is attempting to free up time to be able to gain more capital. As his company grows so will the equipment being used. Not to mention he would have to get a deck over just haul what he gets. Then if he has to plow instead of throw he has to take time to remove the trailer and rehook. I don't know what kind of op you own but I'm damn sure it didn't use a commercial lot machine for residential driveways. Probably started like most of us using a blower, plow, and shovel. What's so wrong with starting small and working your way up? His name isn't even really out there and your suggesting that he goes $25000 in debt for a machine he's only going to use on a couple driveways? Poor advice.


Poor advice? Have you ever priced a John Deere X series like he mentioned? You can get a scut for almost the same price as a Deere X7 series. Transporting the machine will be a pain in the ass doing it repetitively. In the truck bed, or trailering. A lawn mower will quickly be maxed as he ads more driveways to grow. A scut won't. And YES, I do use commercial machines on residential properties. Commercial machines are made for commercial work. A residential machine like a lawn mower are meant to be used twice a week for an hour to mow your lawn, or snowblow your own driveway, not commercial use like doing 10-15 driveways.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Bcwilson said:


> Very true. Skill does play a huge part in it. As far as a blade for a rider that is ludicrous. Jobs would take forever. A blower on the front of it is another story. And as far as the scut goes his customers want it blown. That scut can only get so close and it'll be to big for the most part to sidewalks. So what would be the point of running something like that when it takes forever to load and unload because it has to be transported and you still have to do a majority of the work with a small blower or shovel?


Um my scut is 43" inches wide and I do 3 miles of HOA sidewalk with it. Not sure what you mean about it being too big for sidewalks. As far as residential drives I can get as close to stuff as I want. The scut can handle up to a 56" front mount blower. Not sure what blower is an OEM part for a mower but hey what do I know. My machines do the majority of the work not me so again I guess it's the operator. It takes just as long for me to load and unload my scut as it does to load a couple blowers in the back of my truck. I don't use the scut or blowers for residential anymore because blowers just take way too long to load in my truck. I use my plow and hop out to get the front of the garage with a shovel which takes 30 seconds.

To the OP it's your money but I would never waste my money on homeowner grade equipment to do commercial work. Don't confuse what type of property you are clearing with the grade of equipment you purchase. Commercial grade equipment is made to be used by guys who work it to make a living. Even though you are doing residential work you need commercial grade gear if you want it to last more than one season. Just like for my contracting business I don't buy Ryobi cordless tools or harbor freight framing nailers. Those would be fine for a diy guy using them a couple times a year, not someone using it to the maximum capacity day in and day out for hours on end.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

allseasonturf said:


> I didn't mean to offend, I'm sorry for my choice of words. I feel the same way, customer support is frustrating if its horrible in any industry, and when you base your entire growth potential on word of mouth ( i haven't advertised yet) i try as hard as possible to give the customer what they want. Obviously within reason.
> Thank you for the advice on outgrowing the smaller garden mowers. That's what I was thinking so thank you!!
> Yes I am insured for snow, just no plowing was the wording and no associations or apartments or group homes. No way id tackle anything like that with my toro 928 anyways!!!


Hey bro ! Congrats on your initial success and breaking your way into a new market; snow.

I am in a similar situation as you, I have 14 residential properties all within 15 km or so.
I use a toro 721 commercial blower and take a buddy with me to shovel.
I will be getting my second blower this week as this winter is going to be heavy.
I think smaller and faster blowers are a good choice, hiring someone who can also blow with cut your time in half or close to half !
I have been raising my rates as of late for new clients because they are well aware of the potential for snow this season.
I'm charging $175 + HST per month or $700 for the season ( 4 months )

Best of luck and keep up the good work ! ( Its my first season as well )

Also, JHM recommended to me the "Snowplow" shovels, they are truly good shovels, nice and strong and durable.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

ktfbgb said:


> Um my scut is 43" inches wide and I do 3 miles of HOA sidewalk with it. Not sure what you mean about it being too big for sidewalks. As far as residential drives I can get as close to stuff as I want. The scut can handle up to a 56" front mount blower. Not sure what blower is an OEM part for a mower but hey what do I know. My machines do the majority of the work not me so again I guess it's the operator. It takes just as long for me to load and unload my scut as it does to load a couple blowers in the back of my truck. I don't use the scut or blowers for residential anymore because blowers just take way too long to load in my truck. I use my plow and hop out to get the front of the garage with a shovel which takes 30 seconds.
> 
> To the OP it's your money but I would never waste my money on homeowner grade equipment to do commercial work. Don't confuse what type of property you are clearing with the grade of equipment you purchase. Commercial grade equipment is made to be used by guys who work it to make a living. Even though you are doing residential work you need commercial grade gear if you want it to last more than one season. Just like for my contracting business I don't buy Ryobi cordless tools or harbor freight framing nailers. Those would be fine for a diy guy using them a couple times a year, not someone using it to the maximum capacity day in and day out for hours on end.


This exactly! I buy paslode and Milwaukee, not "skill". Buy a commercial tool for residential drives.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> I am in a similar situation as you, I have 14 residential properties all within 15 km or so.


Picked up 3 more drives since yesterday? Good for you. Must be doing something right.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

JustJeff said:


> This exactly! I buy paslode and Milwaukee, not "skill". Buy a commercial tool for residential drives.


I think it is skill with only 1 "L"... like junkk with only one "K"


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> This exactly! I buy paslode and Milwaukee, not "skill". Buy a commercial tool for residential drives.


My skil worm drive saws are pretty nice and heavy duty

Jokes aside, I completely agree. I've made my fare share of consumer grade purchases, or the cheaper brands. Waste of money, down time, and frustration. Buy professional equipment.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm too old to be carrying a worm drive around all day!


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JustJeff said:


> I'm too old to be carrying a worm drive around all day!


That's why I stand and point now. Make the guys do the work lol.


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## Bcwilson (Dec 14, 2016)

Look. I'm not going to argue with any of you. I get that y'all have been doing this awhile and so have I. Starting out though with such a low # of customers doesn't mean spend a ton of money and jeopardize your op. 2 men, 1 truck with a a decent plow, 2 blowers, and a couple shovels is all you need for the first season or two that you run. As long as you bust ass and push yourself you can go far without a scut. Like I said before there is tons of info that we don't have that really makes a huge difference as to what kind of equipment to recommend. If he has small (500-2500 sq ft) jobs that don't pay top dollar then is it worth larger equipment right now? On the other hand if he's doing larger (2500-7500 sq ft) jobs then I could get behind an investment on a scut. Then it would make sense because the job takes longer then loading and unloading. How many of you guys bought a scut your first year in service?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I agree, with 10 drives it would just be myself and a walk behind blower.


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## Landcare16 (Dec 15, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> Um my scut is 43" inches wide and I do 3 miles of HOA sidewalk with it. Not sure what you mean about it being too big for sidewalks. As far as residential drives I can get as close to stuff as I want. The scut can handle up to a 56" front mount blower. Not sure what blower is an OEM part for a mower but hey what do I know. My machines do the majority of the work not me so again I guess it's the operator. It takes just as long for me to load and unload my scut as it does to load a couple blowers in the back of my truck. I don't use the scut or blowers for residential anymore because blowers just take way too long to load in my truck. I use my plow and hop out to get the front of the garage with a shovel which takes 30 seconds.
> 
> To the OP it's your money but I would never waste my money on homeowner grade equipment to do commercial work. Don't confuse what type of property you are clearing with the grade of equipment you purchase. Commercial grade equipment is made to be used by guys who work it to make a living. Even though you are doing residential work you need commercial grade gear if you want it to last more than one season. Just like for my contracting business I don't buy Ryobi cordless tools or harbor freight framing nailers. Those would be fine for a diy guy using them a couple times a year, not someone using it to the maximum capacity day in and day out for hours on end.


Hey I have a question. I'm in the process of quoting 3 miles of sidewalk and I'm not sure on how to figure the bid. If you could share your method I would really appreciate your help.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Well it's pretty easy here. Almost every commercial and HOA property pays time and material. So you have to set up minimums so that it's like a per push. So I have the 3 miles which are in three different HOA's. Two of the HOA's which have the majority of the walks, about 2.5 miles have an imaginary line through them separating the two. So I charge two minimums each time I'm there because each one gets billed separately. I do the walks with a scut. Been doing it just with the bucket but am getting a front blade for it soon. Hourly rates for a scut like mine in my area are $90 per hour range. I'm charging that with a 1 hour minimum. So I can clear the 2.5 miles in about an hour with the machine, will be even faster with the front blade. So that one for me comes out to $180 for the hour because of the two minimum charges. The rest of the walks are are at a condo complex and three shovel monkeys do that one unless we get a big storm and the city berms the snow up on the city sidewalk side which is only about 1000 feet long. Then I bring in the scut and do that section in 10 min and charge another $90. The rest of the walks are interior to that property and the scut doesn't fit.


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## Landcare16 (Dec 15, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> Well it's pretty easy here. Almost every commercial and HOA property pays time and material. So you have to set up minimums so that it's like a per push. So I have the 3 miles which are in three different HOA's. Two of the HOA's which have the majority of the walks, about 2.5 miles have an imaginary line through them separating the two. So I charge two minimums each time I'm there because each one gets billed separately. I do the walks with a scut. Been doing it just with the bucket but am getting a front blade for it soon. Hourly rates for a scut like mine in my area are $90 per hour range. I'm charging that with a 1 hour minimum. So I can clear the 2.5 miles in about an hour with the machine, will be even faster with the front blade. So that one for me comes out to $180 for the hour because of the two minimum charges. The rest of the walks are are at a condo complex and three shovel monkeys do that one unless we get a big storm and the city berms the snow up on the city sidewalk side which is only about 1000 feet long. Then I bring in the scut and do that section in 10 min and charge another $90. The rest of the walks are interior to that property and the scut doesn't fit.


Thanks for the info. Around here it's mostly procedure per push not at an hourly rate. What would your opinion be on pricing it per square foot and knowing how long it would take you what would you price it at? The sodewalk I am doing is just one big walk going around a neighborhood


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I should also mention that I am in the mountain southwest. We live at 7,000 feet and get an average of 100" of snow per year. We are not snow and ice adverse here. HOA's that I have, which are typical for the rest of them here are a 3" trigger. We plow the roads ever 3" and do the walks once at the end of the storm. City ordinance is within 24 hours of the end of snowfall so that's what they stick with. If we get a nasty storm we have approval to do the walks more than once but usually we are too busy so just get done once. No salt on the roads or walks unless requested and even then it's just to spot treat a shady area. For instance the last storm we got was 3". Barely met the trigger for these properties so we did roads only. They didn't want the walks done since it was going to melt off within two days.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Landcare16 said:


> Thanks for the info. Around here it's mostly procedure per push not at an hourly rate. What would your opinion be on pricing it per square foot and knowing how long it would take you what would you price it at? The sodewalk I am doing is just one big walk going around a neighborhood


Can't really say. Depends on how you clear it. Machines, blowers, shovel monkeys. Is your area snow and ice adverse like it is on east coast where a single flake of snow on the ground is utterly unacceptable? Do they want salt or sand. Is it hilly or flat, how much city snow will end up on the walks? By what time does it need to be done, is it once like I do or every time you hit the trigger? How wide are the walks, are barriers like fencing on side? All these factor into your push price for a specific location. So you can see why I can't really help you with a pricing number on this one.


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