# Another huge Sub contracting problem



## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

So I was searching around craigslist just for the heck of it and I came across this listing.. It reminded my of some other threads on here with people talking about how much they pay their sub contractors and plow operators. According to those threads, many people on here pay their employees more to plow in the COMPANYS truck, nevermind in their own trucks. http://nh.craigslist.org/lab/2072294594.html


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

That right there is a lowballer trying to find someone stupid enough to plow thier work for even less money then they are charging. I wouldn't even fire up a snowblower for 20 dollars an hour let alone a plow truck.


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## TPC Services (Dec 15, 2005)

I would an I have email clowns like that back an told them that they are a lowballer and that I wouln't pull my truck out for anything less then $55 per hr. Had one guy email back. So I gave him my # to discuess his atttiude and the reason why I called him a lowballer but never got a call. What a Chicken $&^# I'm a nice guy i wouldn't of hit him, not that hard anyway (LOL)


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Well, if someone accepts the position, that would seem they are in agreement that the price paid for the work is reasonable otherwise they wouldn't accept it. It's called free market. The market will dictate the price. 

Why would you harass someone like that? It's childish and unprofessional. Let them go on about their business and you do the same. I don't care one bit what someone else charges or what they pay their employees/subs. I do what's best for me and my business.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

I did not harass him, I just simply thought that it was ridiculous that he would be doing that because I would be LOSING money at that price. not even breaking even. And if that guy is paying that amount then that means he is not going to get anyone with insurance or a decent truck/plow. I am simply just pointing out how many people there are out there making it very hard for people who are actually trying to survive off of this money and still pay overhead.


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## DodgerFan (Jan 3, 2010)

I don't know what to think of that Ad...speechless actually??? Even without having Ins etc. (don't know about you guys) I'd still be losing money...WTH

If your that  you need to go work at the local Ding Dong factory...You might even make head Ding Dong maker!


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

If someone is happy with the pay, what's the problem?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Wow and I thought we lived in the cesspool of plowing wages. Even if you have a truck paid off it still wouldn't be worth it unless the driveways are 20-30 minutes apart. I can have 20 driveways done within a 3 or so mile radius in about an hour. I gave up trying to understand how and why people do what they do. I have 2 guys who were supposed to be my crew leader's this year come up MIA. I talked to one guy today who said "I'll call you in a hour or two and we can meet up for the route sheet". That was at 11am.....


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## DodgerFan (Jan 3, 2010)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1128225 said:


> If someone is happy with the pay, what's the problem?


Would you do it? Or want to do it?


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

Its not really even everywhere thats like that.. I mean yeah, a lot of the pricing is ridiculous around here but i mean the town that i live in will pay you 89.50 a hour if you have a 3/4 or 1 ton truck with a sander and 9 foot plow. This guy is just ridiculous. And im sure that the people are only happy doing it because they have NO idea whats happening. they see 20 bucks and hour and theyre like oh thats not too bad ill do that. I have only sub contracted once and that was just because a local business who i am on good terms with needed me to in a pinch, and i got 65 an hour with just a plow and no sanding.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

DodgerFan;1128240 said:


> Would you do it? Or want to do it?


I have done it for that and less. The one thing people on here really don't seem to understand is different markets will have different prices, wages, and costs of living. Here in my area, $15-20/hr for a sub with plow truck is a very good living, such that you can just plow in the winter and play all summer without much worry.

The market will stabilize a price. If this gentleman can't find anyone to do the work for the wage offered, he will have to raise his wage offer or do the work with the crew he has now. I will never tell someone what to pay their crew or their subs. That's up to them and their market to dictate.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1128273 said:


> I have done it for that and less. The one thing people on here really don't seem to understand is different markets will have different prices, wages, and costs of living. Here in my area, $15-20/hr for a sub with plow truck is a very good living, such that you can just plow in the winter and play all summer without much worry.
> 
> The market will stabilize a price. If this gentleman can't find anyone to do the work for the wage offered, he will have to raise his wage offer or do the work with the crew he has now. I will never tell someone what to pay their crew or their subs. That's up to them and their market to dictate.


I deffinately agree with what you are saying, but around here, that will not fly. He will be plowing for two years to pay for one years worth of insurance.. That just doesnt add up. That person plowing for that money will not be plowing next year. But honestly, when you did it, was it recently or a long time ago? and how much money did you actually make while doing it?


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

Tubby, show us pics of ur truck....NOW!


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1128273 said:


> I have done it for that and less. The one thing people on here really don't seem to understand is different markets will have different prices, wages, and costs of living. Here in my area, $15-20/hr for a sub with plow truck is a very good living, such that you can just plow in the winter and play all summer without much worry.
> 
> The market will stabilize a price. If this gentleman can't find anyone to do the work for the wage offered, he will have to raise his wage offer or do the work with the crew he has now. I will never tell someone what to pay their crew or their subs. That's up to them and their market to dictate.


You are so full of it it isnt even funny. Have you ever did a little thing like figure out your expenses? 20.00 per hour and that should allow you to take the summers off. LOL


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

Italiano67;1128303 said:


> You are so full of it it isnt even funny. Have you ever did a little thing like figure out your expenses? 20.00 per hour and that should allow you to take the summers off. LOL


Careful, they get a TON TON TON of snow up where he is. Depending on the truck, etc. it is very possible that he is telling the truth.

They have stretches of 20+ days where it won't stop snowing!


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

It was recently. I just started plowing last year. I worked as a subcontractor last year for several outfits and as a backup for other subs to get experience. Now I added a snow plowing division to my main company and do this in the winter. 

The money details are private, but I was happy making what I made.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

I dont care if you work 24-7 for two months straight at 20.00 per. You pencil it out for me and show me after fuel and wear,insurance, etc, how it comes out.Every hour worked comes with expense.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Italiano67;1128303 said:


> You are so full of it it isnt even funny. Have you ever did a little thing like figure out your expenses? 20.00 per hour and that should allow you to take the summers off. LOL


Before you run your mouth like a fool, I suggest you look at the link in my sig line. I've also been in business for myself (other industries) for over 4 years now. I know a little bit about business management and survival.

My county averages over 200 inches of snow per year and has done so for the last 10 years.

I lived in Wisconsin for the first 22 years of my life, 12 of it in Green Bay, so I'm well aware of your measly 70 inches per year. I've lived in the Fox Cities most of my life. I'm also well aware of the cost of living in Green Bay and surrounding areas. $20 per hour in Green Bay, no I wouldn't. Supply/demand economics and cost of living.

This is what it looked like this morning. This is after getting 3 inches on Monday, about 6 inches on Tuesday, about 5 inches Wednesday, then about 6 inches Thursday, and another 12 inches last night. That's *half* of what you get all *year* we got in *5 days*. We aren't even done with November yet. Lots more to come.


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1128333 said:


> Before you run your mouth like a fool, I suggest you look at the link in my sig line. I've also been in business for myself (other industries) for over 4 years now. I know a little bit about business management and survival.
> 
> My county averages over 200 inches of snow per year and has done so for the last 10 years.
> 
> ...


DAMN, your making me want to get my sled out


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Italiano67;1128324 said:


> I dont care if you work 24-7 for two months straight at 20.00 per. You pencil it out for me and show me after fuel and wear,insurance, etc, how it comes out.Every hour worked comes with expense.


16 hours a day average
21 days per month plowing
336 hours per month
5 month season is 1,680 hours
$20 per hour
$33,600 per season in gross pay

To put that into perspective, that's the average *household gross income for my county*. The snow plowing figures above are for one person working 5 months of the year to make what *two* people make on average up here working full time all year.

After fuel, insurance, and budgeting $1,000 for front end work, you're looking at around $20,000 take home. The most I've heard of a guy spending on repairs in a year was $2,000. Still very doable at $20/hr.


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## EvenCutLawnCare (Aug 12, 2008)

Well $20 hr doesnt pay the bills around here


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

well that settles it, Im moving to michigan.  lol i wish we got that much snow around here. So it may be worth it in your area, but the point of showing that was to show how it is not worth it around HERE, where i live. Sub contractors get paid anywhere between 60-90 an hour. So here 20 bucks is not anywhere near worth it. but Tubby Snow Plowing, if you plow that often and get that much snow, that comes out to be much more than 200 a season... Do you really get to plow that often? Im actually really jealous lol around here we have gotten between 65-127 inches per season.


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

You guys need to remember EVERYONE up there has a plow truck. You can buy a decent house for $40K in the UP. I have a place with a buddy in Ahmeek that we bought 5yrs ago for $37K. It was cheeper to buy a place than to get a hotel, finally figured that out after 7yrs of hotels (mainly Krupps in Twin Lakes)


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

Krupp's is awesome!


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

erkoehler;1128384 said:


> Krupp's is awesome!


Their breakfast sandwich, mmmmmmmm


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Jguck25;1128375 said:


> So it may be worth it in your area, but the point of showing that was to show how it is not worth it around HERE, where i live.


Right and you are one of the few people here that "get it".



> Sub contractors get paid anywhere between 60-90 an hour. So here 20 bucks is not anywhere near worth it


. 
Exactly. Different markets, difference results.



> but Tubby, if you plow that often and get that much snow, that comes out to be much more than 200 a season... Do you really get to plow that often? Im actually really jealous lol around here we have gotten between 65-127 inches per season.


Yes we do get that much snow. Average is 211 inches for the last 10 years. Last year was very dry and was only 150 inches. Year before that was over 200 inches and my village got close to 300 inches (county total measured in different village). This week we plowed every day and hit double digit hours every day so far. 21 days average 5 months per season is 105 days.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

shouldn't have done math in my head at 2am. my numbers were off a little when i added up Tubby's wages for subs.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

nekos;1128405 said:


> You're numbers are way off.
> Sault Ste. Marie. the snowiest place in Michigan, average snow fall of 117 inches per year with an average of 21 snow days per year that produce 2 or more inches of snow.


Sorry, Nekos. My county averages more snow per year than Sault Ste. Marie. We average over 200 inches. SSM is definitely not the snowiest place in MI. Our dry year of 150 inches last year is more than SSM's "average". 21 days per year with 2+ inches of snow? Per year? You don't have a clue. That's one MONTH of stats in my area.



> Lets use you're numbers though. $20 per hour X 16 hours per day = $320 per day.
> 
> A 16 hour day would easily take 2 tanks of gas, done it many times. $140 per day in gas sound fair ? $320 - $140= $180 per day.
> 
> OK now were down to $180 per day after you pay for gas or $11.25 per hour. $11.25 X 336 hours = $3780 per month or $18,900. Not to bad, but definitely not the numbers you were claiming.


Fuel isn't a static expense, since price and consumption vary. It's hard to estimate it. I can fill up twice for a lot less than $140. Those that are more efficient with their expenses and consumption make more money. It's not my responsibility to pay more simply because someone drives a money pit. If you are going to use something to make a living, cry once and don't buy junk.



> Now the fun stuff.
> 
> Insurance, $500 per year as you claimed in another thread. $18,400 Per year.
> Repairs, $1000 per year. $17,400 per year
> ...


$6,720 gross monthly pay (336 hours @ $20/hr)
$2,400 monthly expenses ($2100 fuel, $100 insurance, $100 maintenance)
---------
$4,320 monthly left over

Divided by 336 hours per month is $12.86/hr. Most jobs here are $8-9/hr.



> ( edit)
> BTW didn't you say in the thread that got closed that you only paid $12 per hour ?


No, you are wrong. I stated:


Tubby's Snow Plowing said:


> I can put an ad here for $12/hr plus gas and I will have at least a dozen people with plow trucks responding to get the position. If you won't take it, move over because the guy behind you will do it.


I did not state what I pay subs. I did not state what I pay employees. I never stated what I pay anyone. You made up your mind and read what you wanted to read, not what was posted.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

nekos;1128405 said:


> shouldn't have done math in my head at 2am. my numbers were off a little when i added up Tubby's wages for subs.


Those wages aren't what I pay my subs. I have never stated what I pay.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1128416 said:


> Sorry, Nekos. My county averages more snow per year than Sault Ste. Marie. We average over 200 inches. SSM is definitely not the snowiest place in MI. Our dry year of 150 inches last year is more than SSM's "average". 21 days per year with 2+ inches of snow? Per year? You don't have a clue. That's one MONTH of stats in my area.
> 
> Fuel isn't a static expense, since price and consumption vary. It's hard to estimate it. I can fill up twice for a lot less than $140. Those that are more efficient with their expenses and consumption make more money. It's not my responsibility to pay more simply because someone drives a money pit. If you are going to use something to make a living, cry once and don't buy junk.
> 
> ...


Actually you did say what you paid per hour and that's why i and others went off. Sadly they deleted most of the posts in that thread. Either way your guys are not even close to $12.86 per hour. They are not just slightly under minimum wage where i had your guys at though. They might make $10 an hour after you add in simple things like hoses, hydraulic fluid and repairs on their trucks. I'm to tired to add it up at the moment.


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## motoxguy (Oct 17, 2010)

what the hell it seems like the last few years we have already been out for a salting or two and we haven't done anything yet and i look at the long range forecast for s.e WI on accuweather and doesn't look like we will be plowing any time soon.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

2,000.00 total repair expense for 1680 hours plowing. Wow . I dont buy it and if I am running my mouth like a fool calling you out on making enough money at 20 per hour to take the summer off so be it. They must give trucks and plows away up there since you get so much snow. I dont see depreciation or purchase in your budget.


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## Kramer (Nov 13, 2004)

You said this:



16 hours a day average
21 days per month plowing
336 hours per month
5 month season is 1,680 hours
$20 per hour
$33,600 per season in gross pay




First, I hate to tell you but anyone else in another industry working 16 hrs a day is making a lot of overtime. If you have people in your area working 16 hrs/day for straight pay, I suggest they are stupid.

Second, I don't believe you can consistently work 16 hrs/day---sorry but i just dont believe it.

third, you say you plow 1680 hrs in 5 months. You also say there are essentially no repairs required-- again, I cry foul.

fourth, 200" is a lot of snow. This is the only part I believe from what you post. It's not the dollars per hour you're making but if you're actually plowing even 12 hrs per day, you're using a ton of gas, you're beating the tranny in your truck hard and even in 2 seasons at that rate a new plow would need some work. You indicated 5 seasons in a row at that snow rate--- so you're saying 5 seasons and no wear and tear? I simply don't believe it. If you are working 16 hrs/day that consistently, maybe you should consider a job at walmart--- $8 / hr then $12/hr OT for the second shift, health care paid for, no expenses (gas...) and a warm environment. So its a wash at the end of the day with wallyworld but you've convinced yourself you're doing better than everyone else in town. Twice as good from your own statement. 
It sounds competitive there, but if you can really work those hours the better bang for the buck would be to get a full time job and healthcare and then then do plowing part time. At only 8hrs/day plowing, you'd really have no repairs or upkeep, don't have to worry about variability of snowfall and so forth.

If there's that much snow then you should probably consider your own work instead of subbing. That would be more inline with your business background too.


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## mtnzone (Apr 8, 2008)

Jguck25;1128278 said:


> I deffinately agree with what you are saying, but around here, that will not fly. He will be plowing for two years to pay for one years worth of insurance.. That just doesnt add up. That person plowing for that money will not be plowing next year. But honestly, when you did it, was it recently or a long time ago? and how much money did you actually make while doing it?


question? My subs are under my insurance umbrella for liability, I also pay for all their gas while plowing.. we also have a garage with mechanic so they get service done for basically free, so what would their going rate be then... ?? We pay around $25 to $30 depending on your expereince.

do youthink that is fair? Well most of my subs have bee with me for 3 plus yearsor more and seem pretty damm happy...


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

nekos;1128422 said:


> Actually you did say what you paid per hour and that's why i and others went off. Sadly they deleted most of the posts in that thread. Either way your guys are not even close to $12.86 per hour. They are not just slightly under minimum wage where i had your guys at though. They might make $10 an hour after you add in simple things like hoses, hydraulic fluid and repairs on their trucks. I'm to tired to add it up at the moment.


Even $10/hr jobs are basically nonexistent here. If they are fine making what they're making, they will continue to do so.



Italiano67;1128552 said:


> 2,000.00 total repair expense for 1680 hours plowing. Wow . I dont buy it and if I am running my mouth like a fool calling you out on making enough money at 20 per hour to take the summer off so be it. They must give trucks and plows away up there since you get so much snow. I dont see depreciation or purchase in your budget.


They probably don't budget for that. Not my problem. I'm not in the financial planning business. Again, you don't understand the low cost of living here versus Green Bay. People make it on $8/hr just fine owning a decent house, reliable vehicle, etc. The area is full of them because that's the market.



Kramer;1128589 said:


> You said this:
> 
> 16 hours a day average
> 21 days per month plowing
> ...


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

You just said you are paying for the gas,insurance and maintenance labor for your subs. That is a different story than Tubby who is paying all of that himself including fuel etc.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Italiano67;1128681 said:


> You just said you are paying for the gas,insurance and maintenance labor for your subs. That is a different story than Tubby who is paying all of that himself including fuel etc.


This post is confusing me. Where did I say I pay all that for my subs?


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

mtnzone;1128671 said:


> question? My subs are under my insurance umbrella for liability, I also pay for all their gas while plowing.. we also have a garage with mechanic so they get service done for basically free, so what would their going rate be then... ?? We pay around $25 to $30 depending on your expereince.
> 
> do youthink that is fair? Well most of my subs have bee with me for 3 plus yearsor more and seem pretty damm happy...


This guy. You posted while I was typing. My post was supposed to follow his. Another item I wanted to point out is that you state you are relatively new at this plowing business. So you really dont know over a period of time what your equipment expense will be. You also said that purchase price and depreciation often isnt figured in where you live. Dont you think that is a big part of a plowing since the truck is the only item in the business?


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

So who still believes in santa clause?


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

mtnzone;1128671 said:


> question? My subs are under my insurance umbrella for liability, I also pay for all their gas while plowing.. we also have a garage with mechanic so they get service done for basically free, so what would their going rate be then... ?? We pay around $25 to $30 depending on your expereince.
> 
> do youthink that is fair? Well most of my subs have bee with me for 3 plus yearsor more and seem pretty damm happy...


Lets say your guys are working 10 hours per night and you fill up their tank at $75. 
You're subs are making $37.50 per hour gross. Depending on how many hours per year they get, how much insurance costs, repairs, misc. that number will change drastically.

using my hours + operating costs @ $37.50 per hour
$37.50 x 150 hours = $5625 per year

commercial auto and general liability $1800 
$5625 -$1800 = $3825 per year

repairs$1500
$3825 - $1500 = $2325 per year

misc stuff, hoses, cutting edge , ect $200
$2325 - $200 = $2125 per year

I would make $2125.00 per year or roughly $14.00 per hour. This is also not counting deprecation on the truck and plow. Also i don't have repair costs since i run new trucks and equipment only. My actual operating costs are slightly higher and i would be in the $9 - $10 range.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Italiano67;1128690 said:


> This guy. You posted while I was typing. My post was supposed to follow his.


OK, that makes sense now. Thanks.



> Another item I wanted to point out is that you state you are relatively new at this plowing business. So you really dont know over a period of time what your equipment expense will be.


That is correct. I have asked and talked with over a dozen other guys about their expenses and they stated it's minimal. In the future, if things change, adjustments might have to be made.



> You also said that purchase price and depreciation often isnt figured in where you live. Dont you think that is a big part of a plowing since the truck is the only item in the business?


I stated I don't know if my subs factor that in their expenses and that's it's not my job to factor that for them. I factor it for my plow and truck as replacement cost as I Section 179 them. I agree it's a big part of being a subcontractor but it's not my job to teach them about things like that.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

nekos;1128705 said:


> commercial auto and general liability $1800
> $5625 -$1800 = $3825 per year


And not all subs are smart enough to carry the commercial insurance. Some just have a rider for $500 and even more don't even have that- just general liability to get on the road and take their chances.

Smart ones have commercial coverage and charge accordingly.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1128715 said:


> And not all subs are smart enough to carry the commercial insurance. Some just have a rider for $500 and even more don't even have that- just general liability to get on the road and take their chances.
> 
> Smart ones have commercial coverage and charge accordingly.


true true... It's required for the places i have worked for and i would have it regardless. The accounts i do and the equipment i run, $1800 per year is a very small price to pay in case some thing happens.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

nekos;1128748 said:


> true true... It's required for the places i have worked for and i would have it regardless. The accounts i do and the equipment i run, $1800 per year is a very small price to pay in case some thing happens.


Yup. That's for sure. People don't appreciate insurance until something happens. It's complacency of things not happening that appeals to the risk takers. Me? Insurance is a small price to pay for peace of mind.


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## mrsnowman (Sep 18, 2010)

The sad thing of this post is that the price of our industry has dropped this low. I don't care if you get 50 inches a year or 300, your hourly operating expenses are close. Obviously taking care of your rig is important and can save money, but the obvious wear and tear still happens. Tires, oil changes, tranny/diff flushes, wiper blades, wiper fluid, plow oil, cutting edges, lights, strobes, ball joints, etc etc etc. We average about $4000.00 per truck per year in basic wear and tear. Now, blow an engine, tranny, suspension, or bust a plow. Bam, your up to $10,000.00 in a year easily. We have dumped up to $15,000.00 in one truck in a year to keep it rolling. If I was making $50.00 per hour on that truck, let alone $20.00 per hour. I would have needed a loan to keep on going. Is that risk worth the pay? Forget about it. Many people in our industry are just trying to work for as little as possible to keep busy. In an area that pulls in up to 300 inches a year and is plausible to run a truck 16 hours per day, those drivers and owners should be able to clear a nice living, not just get by. I fully understand that the market drives our numbers, but we also have a large factor in that too. 
Our customers all expect us to do our jobs. They don't care if we work 8, 16, or 24 hour shifts to get their lots/drives cleared. If we continue to price ourselves as grunts we will continue to be looked at as grunts. My rigs pull in between $125.00 and $150.00 per hour. That is every one of them. If we have a good winter, my drivers all do well and so do we. That includes my subs. I would be bankrupt at under $50.00 per hour. Note: we have been around a long time and know what it takes to keep going. Our seasonal average is in the 100 inch range, so we are in the middle range for snow fall. 
Try spending some time with the other companies in your area to work on getting the prices up higher. In the UP, you can't have too many companies in your area. It never hurts to get to know your competition. You suckers could retire in a few years if you could get your numbers at a good price. I wish we had your snow numbers. I wouldn't be working all summer, I will tell you that.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

mrsnowman;1128974 said:


> The sad thing of this post is that the price of our industry has dropped this low. I don't care if you get 50 inches a year or 300, your hourly operating expenses are close. Obviously taking care of your rig is important and can save money, but the obvious wear and tear still happens. Tires, oil changes, tranny/diff flushes, wiper blades, wiper fluid, plow oil, cutting edges, lights, strobes, ball joints, etc etc etc. We average about $4000.00 per truck per year in basic wear and tear. Now, blow an engine, tranny, suspension, or bust a plow. Bam, your up to $10,000.00 in a year easily. We have dumped up to $15,000.00 in one truck in a year to keep it rolling. If I was making $50.00 per hour on that truck, let alone $20.00 per hour. I would have needed a loan to keep on going. Is that risk worth the pay? Forget about it. Many people in our industry are just trying to work for as little as possible to keep busy. In an area that pulls in up to 300 inches a year and is plausible to run a truck 16 hours per day, those drivers and owners should be able to clear a nice living, not just get by. I fully understand that the market drives our numbers, but we also have a large factor in that too.
> Our customers all expect us to do our jobs. They don't care if we work 8, 16, or 24 hour shifts to get their lots/drives cleared. If we continue to price ourselves as grunts we will continue to be looked at as grunts. My rigs pull in between $125.00 and $150.00 per hour. That is every one of them. If we have a good winter, my drivers all do well and so do we. That includes my subs. I would be bankrupt at under $50.00 per hour. Note: we have been around a long time and know what it takes to keep going. Our seasonal average is in the 100 inch range, so we are in the middle range for snow fall.
> Try spending some time with the other companies in your area to work on getting the prices up higher. In the UP, you can't have too many companies in your area. It never hurts to get to know your competition. You suckers could retire in a few years if you could get your numbers at a good price. I wish we had your snow numbers. I wouldn't be working all summer, I will tell you that.


This is part of the reason i keep complaining about wages for subs. If we as sub contractors refuse to work for a couple $ an hour then prices will have to be raised until snow removal companies can pay us an attractive wage. If they had to buy their own $40k truck and $6k plow for every 5 or 6 lots, rates would sky rocket ! Instead they keep lowballing each other and passing the costs off on us.

Sub contractors need to know what their operating costs are and understand how much it costs just to step out the door. They need to understand that even their rolling pile of rust is worth a lot of damn money to a snow removal company as long as it's reliable. They also need to understand that they should be paid very well for their time and equipment.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

mrsnowman;1128974 said:


> In an area that pulls in up to 300 inches a year and is plausible to run a truck 16 hours per day, those drivers and owners should be able to clear a nice living, not just get by. I fully understand that the market drives our numbers, but we also have a large factor in that too.


SNIP


> Try spending some time with the other companies in your area to work on getting the prices up higher. In the UP, you can't have too many companies in your area. It never hurts to get to know your competition. You suckers could retire in a few years if you could get your numbers at a good price. I wish we had your snow numbers. I wouldn't be working all summer, I will tell you that.


The customers will only pay so much because that's what they can afford. Then the numbers trickle down from there. The customers will only pay so much for the service, then the businesses and independent operators have to make due off that. To raise price is simply out of the question. Looking at the market price for seasonal monthly residential is an honest $150-200 per month. That's all the customers can afford to pay. Their mortgage is $200-300 per month. Commercial accounts can pay more because they can afford to pay, but it's a good ol' boy society here and the few construction companies handle most of the accounts and utilize subs. This keeps the little guys out of the commercial plowing market and keeps the big guys locked in. Guys with half tons and 9 foot plows can't compete with a Deere or two using pusher boxes and blowers.

What the residential competition is really are guys with a plow for themselves that help out a few neighbors for $150-200 per month cash. The legitimate companies have to match price or stay home. Myself and a few other small guys are trying to change that by charging a higher price and offering better service and quality of plowing than the others. It's going to take a few years to change the local market here, but we're determined to do it. Unfortunately we have to start at status quo and work from there. The hardest part is articulating the value of our service to the clients. Commercial is easier than residential. Luckily I have a marketing guru on staff with my other company that is helping us launch a campaign to do just that. But it takes time.

We do things like shovel in front of the door that backdragging can't get. We shovel the slop left over and have two man teams in a few trucks that one guy gets out with a shovel to assist the plower so it's a cleaner job (push snow in front of the truck to stack it) and to get around obstacles. For this we charge a slightly higher price and include this benefit in our literature.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

nekos;1129012 said:


> This is part of the reason i keep complaining about wages for subs. If we as sub contractors refuse to work for a couple $ an hour then prices will have to be raised until snow removal companies can pay us an attractive wage. If they had to buy their own $40k truck and $6k plow for every 5 or 6 lots, rates would sky rocket ! Instead they keep lowballing each other and passing the costs off on us.
> 
> Sub contractors need to know what their operating costs are and understand how much it costs just to step out the door. They need to understand that even their rolling pile of rust is worth a lot of damn money to a snow removal company as long as it's reliable. They also need to understand that they should be paid very well for their time and equipment.


Yup and they need to factor their expenses then what they want to walk away with at the end of the term for net pay.

The subcontractor wants to be paid as much as possible after expenses. The company wants to pay as little as possible to make maximum profit. The middle ground is where the figure will meet.


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## mrsnowman (Sep 18, 2010)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1129064 said:


> SNIP
> 
> The customers will only pay so much because that's what they can afford. Then the numbers trickle down from there. The customers will only pay so much for the service, then the businesses and independent operators have to make due off that. To raise price is simply out of the question. Looking at the market price for seasonal monthly residential is an honest $150-200 per month. That's all the customers can afford to pay. Their mortgage is $200-300 per month. Commercial accounts can pay more because they can afford to pay, but it's a good ol' boy society here and the few construction companies handle most of the accounts and utilize subs. This keeps the little guys out of the commercial plowing market and keeps the big guys locked in. Guys with half tons and 9 foot plows can't compete with a Deere or two using pusher boxes and blowers.
> 
> ...


I am not going after your way of bidding or the area that you live in. I just wish that all areas would start charging what we are worth rather than lowballing the prices into the ground. You stated that the average monthly rate for a residential customer is between 150 and 200 per month. Our average residential is 200 for the season, based on 28 pushes. You have a longer seasonal than we do. September through May if I'm not mistaken. That would be 9 months at least at 150 per month or $1350.00 per season. You have twice the average snow over us and your price for a seasonal residential is almost 7x. We are making a minimum of $125.00 per hour compared to your $20.00. That doesn't add up. Are you sure that you didn't mean $200.00 per season?

I understand the good ol boy network. It's hard to get out of it in a small area. It seems that the big companies know every business owner in the area and it doesn't matter how you bid. You are skunked before you type something out no matter the price. It sound like you are on the right track with quality. Keep it up and turn that area around. It can take a while, but if everyone works at it we can get things slowely turned around.


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## Metro Lawn (Nov 20, 2003)

I did not bother to read through all of these postings but after 26 years in this business and running a fleet of trucks, it costs me about $18 and hour just in fuel and maintenance per truck. If anyone can live on $2 an hour (minus insurance ect.) let them step up, I have some work for you.


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

mrsnowman;1129140 said:


> You stated that the average monthly rate for a residential customer is between 150 and 200 per month.


Yes.



> You have a longer seasonal than we do. September through May if I'm not mistaken.


No. Snow season is generally November through March. Sometimes it snows in April, but April and May are the thawing months. Snow is clear of the roads in late March or early April and then it starts to rain. Season is considered Nov 1 to March 31.



> You have twice the average snow over us and your price for a seasonal residential is almost 7x.


Yes, we charge $150-250 per *month* for service. That's the collective range for the snow plowers here for residential. $200/month is average, figure 5 month season at $1,000 for the season.

Those that sign a contract by Oct 1 get billed monthly rate and get April at half price if service is needed. There is no per inch surcharge or other stuff for contracts. It's monthly service regardless of snowfall. Price for the average and the dry years you make that much more due to decreased expenses (average is 211 inches where the county measures, last year we got 150 inches and we didn't get any snow after March 1st).

The season rates for November to March service are $750, $1,000, or $1,250 per season. A one man operation can net 20 clients easy for up to $25,000 in gross revenue per month.

For call in service with non-contract customers, we have a 6 inch increment charge. Up to 6 inches is $50 one visit, over six less than 12 inches is $75 one visit, and 12 inches or more is $125 one visit. These call ins we plow and clear as much as possible. It's better for the customer to get on contract with us for the season than just call us as needed. When they pay their bill (call ins I require payment in cash before the plow drops) I hand them a flyer for our contract services and explain to them it's cheaper to have them on contract then as needed. If they sign a contract that day, I credit the first month fee with what they just paid me for the call in and the balance is due end of the month (I bill for service in advance).



> We are making a minimum of $125.00 per hour compared to your $20.00. That doesn't add up. Are you sure that you didn't mean $200.00 per season?


Heck no! $200 per MONTH. $200 a season is way, way, way too low. That wouldn't even cover gas for one client for the whole season on their property. We have a three tier pricing for residential this year at $150, $200, and $250 per month depending on the extent of clearing (quick path to the road, clear driveway and front of garage shoveled, or full blown clear the entire yard as much as possible).



> I understand the good ol boy network. It's hard to get out of it in a small area. It seems that the big companies know every business owner in the area and it doesn't matter how you bid. You are skunked before you type something out no matter the price.


Yup. We get the "we've been using X for so long we'll go with them again this year."



> It sound like you are on the right track with quality. Keep it up and turn that area around. It can take a while, but if everyone works at it we can get things slowely turned around.


Thanks.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

wow stuff seems really cheap up in upper michigan lol not bashing at all but i hadnt realized how cheap it was. From a salary in the Boston/ NH area, I could move there and live like a KING lol my brother works as an entry level cashier in a grocery store near boston for 12 bucks an hour. lol

Residentials arent too bad if you find the right customers.. Last year I did not have that many good customers, but I have been weeding out the not so good ones and going after the "quaility" factor in residential and small commercial snow removal. For my truck I am averaging 180 an hour, not bad at all as far as i am concerned. That does not include sanding or salting

I also have relatively low operating costs because I try to be as efficient as possible.


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## HGT INC. (Feb 18, 2009)

*depreciation costs*

Hi everyone, I know what costs are involved. However, I have failed to see an average on how everyone puts a cost on depreciation of the truck and the plow. Its one thing if the truck is paid for. If your truck is paid for include your figures. If not you could use your monthly pmt. and insurance costs, ect.. Please feel free to chime in with a formula for ALL of our costs, (plowing only, no salting). Be sure to include costs and maintenance or repair,( oil change, trans tune up, tires, ect.) depreciation of both the truck and plow. For practical purposes, use gas at $3.00 a gallon and don't include wages as there is a wide difference depending on where you live.

One last item, on truck depreciation, most of us operate our business in the summer also. If we didn't plow during the winter the truck would be parked. No plowing, no additional wear and tear, but no extra $$. Thanks Guys.


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## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

I just read this entire thread. Now I want my time back lol. $20 per hour as a sub??? YOUR NOT USING YOUR BRAIN!!!!


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

rob_cook2001;1216638 said:


> I just read this entire thread. Now I want my time back lol. $20 per hour as a sub??? YOUR NOT USING YOUR BRAIN!!!!


That post alone made this whole thing worth reading:laughing:


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

No reason to get to upset guys. It is in the UP of Michigan. Trust me there is plenty of poor folk up there. $20 a hour means no insurance AT ALL. A truck most use as a yard truck and in some cases no proper registration. It is not competition to people in large metropolitan areas. 

Although, @ twenty a hour and todays gas prices I must ask what they are using. My truck is a gasser and when actually plowing and working I would bet it is drinking $20 a hour in gas alone. Just because the cost of living is lower will not mean fuel prices are much lower. Even @ three a gallon that is $60 for 20 gallons. 

At $20 a hour I would have to say there is a lot of milking the clock as well. Since things are slower there I assume it takes 3 hours to plow a acre not 1. 

I can see people only having so much money to pay each year for snow removal but since 1999 gas has more than doubled. My insurance has more than doubled, Truck and plow cost is about double. Salt is 3 or 4 times as much. 

It is fine to say a house is cheaper and what not, but, basic costs of survival are not and unless there is some magic way of clearing snow you guys use I can not see paying someone to plow. Which is what it would be @ $20 a hour. 

All my stuff is paid for as well.
Truck $14,000
Plow $5,000
Salter $5,320
Wet system $1,850
Shocks,rear suspension,lights,tires $3,000

Maintenance before plow season water pump, HD fan clutch,trans flush, radiator flush,brakes,serpentine belt new battery $2,500

$20 a hour?   :laughing:


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Most of the professional plowers are construction or landscaping companies that slap a plow on the truck to keep revenue going through the winter. They run heavy equipment for the townships and county and do the commercial lots with front loaders. One company leases their construction grader to the village and plows the streets with it during the winter. That thing is a monster. Front blade, belly blade, and the swing out blade. He doesn't mess around. 

A lot of the guys working as subs have a $5,000 truck/plow rig. It runs, it's got a plow, it gets the job done. Very minimal. They'll have their normal $10/hr day job and get up a few hours early to make a quick route before work for $20/hr or maybe a little more. 

The only rigs I see around here that are close to being new or at least looking good are either the construction company trucks or business owners that throw a plow on their own truck for their business. No one around here has a newer truck (5 years old or less) with a plow and does snow plowing as a sub. There's a lot of guys with an 80s or 90s Ford or Chevrolet half ton and straight blade that's well used. They buy those rigs for $3,000 or less, run them a few years, and do it all over again. A lot of the guys that are subbing don't have commercial rider insurance (ie snow plow insurance). They just have the state minimum property/liability no-fault coverage and that's it. 

A lot of people happen to have a plow and plow the neighbors and friends for free. My neighbor has a 3/4 Dodge with V plow. Before I got into plowing he plowed my yard for free. He also plows his sister's place for free.


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## mule585 (Oct 24, 2010)

Ok guys here's one for ya. I have my own accounts that I do but I also work on the books for another company using my own truck (2001 F350 dump 8.5 pro plus) I'm at $25/hr which I know is on the low side for my area but now their refusing to put gas in my truck n saying the gas is part of the 25/hr. I'm looking for others input on this I think its crazy but that's just me


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

I wouldn't work for those terms. $25/hr is low enough for labor and wear on your vehicle. I wouldn't be comfortable working for that price if they didn't at least cover gas or gas and lunch. 

What I would do is calculate your gallons per hour of fuel, add that to the $25/hr and go back at them with that figure. Tell them X price per hour or you walk. Then follow through. If you have your own accounts, then you can use that time not working for someone else to sign more accounts under your service. 

I pay my one and only sub $20 per hour plus I pay his fuel and he gets one meal on me. He's retired and plows in the winter time for extra cash to spoil his grandchildren with. He doesn't need the money for himself and needs something to do in the winter.


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## badgerman (Nov 27, 2012)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1128273 said:


> I have done it for that and less. The one thing people on here really don't seem to understand is different markets will have different prices, wages, and costs of living. Here in my area, $15-20/hr for a sub with plow truck is a very good living, such that you can just plow in the winter and play all summer without much worry.
> 
> The market will stabilize a price. If this gentleman can't find anyone to do the work for the wage offered, he will have to raise his wage offer or do the work with the crew he has now. I will never tell someone what to pay their crew or their subs. That's up to them and their market to dictate.


Huh, Well what you say is true about different market in every area, but $15-20 an hour to drive your own truck is NOT a good living i dont care where you live! its impossible to make money at those rates maybe in the 70's it was good lol.. You HAVE to do MATH! And math dont lie i burn about 2 to 3 gallons an hour of gas plowing snow not to mention the cost of having a truck and plow, even an old truck and plow requires maintenance after all the expenses you would be lucky to see anything. The problem with people like this is they do not understand what i just said they see 20 dollars an hour and thats it and think thats a lot and they go broke and go home and next year this guy finds some one else who dont realize what they are getting into and it wrecks the market for a long time. Once the cycle starts its a downward slide. I dont think emailing them and telling them how it is, is unprofessional at all, infact i think what they are doing is even more unprofessional.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

If I had a truck with a plow that was reasonably reliable, and had no job due to a layoff or whatever, $20 per hour plus gas and a meal would look pretty dadgum good. It's all about your situation.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

Buswell Forest;1657998 said:


> If I had a truck with a plow that was reasonably reliable, and had no job due to a layoff or whatever, $20 per hour plus gas and a meal would look pretty dadgum good. It's all about your situation.


i agree, but originally it was about 20 dollars an hour no meal or gas included..

by the way, what happened to tubby plowing?


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## Metro Lawn (Nov 20, 2003)

Tubby's Snow Plowing;1128360 said:


> 16 hours a day average
> 21 days per month plowing
> 336 hours per month
> 5 month season is 1,680 hours
> ...


If you worked for me with those hours you would be at $42,000 as a company driver and $142,800 if you drove your own truck.


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

i noticed he hasnt been on here in over a year, he probably needed new tires and the business couldnt afford them. he does have other businesses and realized that those businesses were paying for the plowing one..


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