# What Should I Charge Michigan



## cobra333 (Nov 28, 2006)

Should I Charge A Price Just To Plow Driveway ..

What To Charge Salt Sand??

What To Charge Sidewalks ??


And Most Importantly How To Stake Out New Homes .. How Do U Find Corners Of Drives .sidewalks ???


All Residential .. Thanks Guys Please Respond


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## cobra333 (Nov 28, 2006)

Help Here Guys


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Told you before. Basic drives are going for 30 to 35. Less in some areas. More if they are bigger but not much more. Thats up to 6" for me...then I add 15 dollars for each additional 2 inches.

Yes! You do the walks. NO you dont salt resis unless they really want it. Sometimes Ill dribble a little calcium on porch steps at no charge as a courtesy.

You use driveway stakes....the orange things???? to mark the ends corners tricky areas of concern etc.


Your names not Rumplestiltskin by chance is it?

lol


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## jcesar (Sep 14, 2006)

Ann Arbor.....
Play nice! LOL Just kidding.
Yeah, if you are doing residentials, I would not wory bout the salt much. About 30- 35 per drive, till you hit the bigger ones. that is about right, for this area as well.
Orange marker sticks should help you find the curbs, etc. They sell em at the Home Depot. I think 1.99 each.


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## mark m (Nov 12, 2006)

north mi 35-40 for stan. drive with porch cleaned and salted free


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## PremierLand (Jun 11, 2004)

Dont ask other people what to charge. Figure out your own costs... fuel, labor, tax, payments, phones, etc. etc. and see how much YOU NEED to charge.

People in NY have different prices than us. Nothing I hate more than hearing guys charging $20bucks a driveway or $250 per season.


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## Added Touch (Nov 10, 2006)

*Being Diplomatic on price*

Hey all,

Fairly new to this forum and industry however can see that there is a lot of different thoughts on pricing for sure. Truth seems that everyone of us has different requirements and obligations which will impact what makes sense to charge in order to have some profit at the end of the day. A good example is myself ... I can make a profit at $25 to $30 bucks a shot because my overhead is low and I have other streams of income, and my equipment costs are relatively low. That said, no one wants to leave money on the table either. If I can get $45 a drive, than I want to get that as well. It really helps for those of us who are new to get a feel for what the going rates are so we are not low balling, or at the same time pricing ourselves out of the water. Thanks for everyone who gives their opinion and details where possible.

Tom


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## Added Touch (Nov 10, 2006)

*Figuring Costs ....*

Here is a link to a thread that many found helpful. It amynot answer all of your questions, however may help ....

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=28350

Tom


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Added Touch;329110 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> A good example is myself ... I can make a profit at $25 to $30 bucks a shot because my overhead is low and I have other streams of income, and my equipment costs are relatively low.
> Tom


Yes a good example, you do not charge what you are worth becauce you are subsidizing your plowing business with a stream of income from a diffrent job.
cut off that stream and adjust your prices.
So, if you get a raise at this other job are you goint to lower your prices?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mick;"quote"

*""*To figure costs, you will need to start with some basic assumptions:
1. Equipment - 
A. Use replacement costs. Payments (how much, whether you 
have any or not) are irrelevant. The guy who says he 
doesn't have to make as much as someone else 
because his "equipment is paid for" is doomed to failure 
and won't be around more than a couple of years - if that.
B. Allow a realistic amount for maintenance and repairs of 
even new equipment. If you don't have any idea, a mechanic
or someone on this site. 
C. Allow for labor costs. Sure you are doing it yourself - so pay 
yourself. Besides, you just may have to pay someone at some
point.
D. Allow a reasonable profit. Only you can decide what you want to
make.

Ok, as an example, let's say you have decided to plow with a used truck that costs $15,000 and a plow that costs $4,000 and expect the truck to last five years and the plow to last ten years. Your replacement cost of the truck is $3,000yr ($15,000/5ys) and the plow is $400yr. You have determined that you should expect about $1,500/yr in repairs and $300/yr in maintenance. Your yearly equipment cost is $5,200. Now you will also need to get the figures for insurance (both Commercial Vehicle and General Liability). Lets say $1200 and $800 respectively so that's an additional $2,000 per year. Total yearly cost of business is now $7,200. Now for labor costs. Let's say you want to set up a route of five hours. You determine that the average wage for someone to plow is $12/hr, so a five hour route will really involve labor for six or seven hours (travel, maintenance etc) so labor costs will be $84/day. You expect to be out ten days, so labor costs are $840/yr. (You're using subs so you won't need Workman's Comp, Unemployment Insurance etc of employee-related costs.) Now you're up to $8040/yr. If you figure a 30% profit margin, that's $2412. You need to make $10,452 over a winter. Now you determine that the average driveway is worth $30 and with a three inch trigger, you will be plowing an average of 12 times over the winter. One driveway will bring in $360/yr. You will need 29.0333 driveways (round up or down, whatever you want). If you want to figure hourly, you will be billing 60 hours (five hours plowing per route times 12 snowfalls that get plowed). So you need to charge $174.20/hr ($10,452/60). If you want to figure how much do I need to charge each driveway and keep my route to five hours, then use $10,452/12(snowfalls per winter)/5 (hours per route)/x (# of driveways you can do in an hour - let's say six). So you'd need to charge $29.03 per driveway.*""*


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Nice breakdown SF. I hope it helps some of them understand this a little better.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

ECS;329314 said:


> Nice breakdown SF. I hope it helps some of them understand this a little better.


Don't thank me, lol!!!! Thank, *Mick*!!!!!


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

Although you can save a lot on maintenance costs by using liquid weld or something instead of properly fixing it.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

PremierLand;327691 said:


> Dont ask other people what to charge. Figure out your own costs... fuel, labor, tax, payments, phones, etc. etc. and see how much YOU NEED to charge.
> 
> People in NY have different prices than us. Nothing I hate more than hearing guys charging $20bucks a driveway or $250 per season.


If we all did that wede be doing resis for 7 dollars.

The standard price is 35.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

I really get so damned tired of hearing that line of thinking. What does it cost you to do a resi each time you do it. 3 dollars?

If you added 500% profit youd be doing them for 15 dollars.


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## Northland (Oct 1, 2006)

ECS;329328 said:


> Although you can save a lot on maintenance costs by using liquid weld or something instead of properly fixing it.


   HEHEHEHEHEH


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## m_j_glover (Dec 2, 2006)

PremierLand;327691 said:


> Dont ask other people what to charge. Figure out your own costs... fuel, labor, tax, payments, phones, etc. etc. and see how much YOU NEED to charge.
> 
> People in NY have different prices than us. Nothing I hate more than hearing guys charging $20bucks a driveway or $250 per season.


I live in Lansing, Michigan and I charge $250-$350 per season!!!!!!!!! Something wrong with that??


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

yes. Based off a 15 plow season and 48 inch average snowfall thats 16 dollars and 90 cents a property.


I wont even plow my own driveway for $16.90


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Snoking does drives for 200 a year in Muskegon and they get 97 inches a year on average.

Depending on how many times they plow...Im figuring 20, thats 10 dollars a drive.

I wouldn't plow Jesus's drive for ten dollars.


You guys are ruining this industry for everyone.

Its already ruined in Muskegon and Grand rapids thanks to the likes of the John Allins of the world. I just hope and pray it doesnt move east, or that none of you guys do with all due respect.

I was doing drives by hand back in the eighties for 25.


I have to believe you guys do a lousy job to boot but for the price no one cares because you are almost doing it for free.


That and one good year of snowfall and you guys cut and run and disconnect your phones.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

LLM Ann Arbor;329340 said:


> I really get so damned tired of hearing that line of thinking. What does it cost you to do a resi each time you do it. 3 dollars?
> 
> If you added 500% profit youd be doing them for 15 dollars.


And not to quote myself....but these guys come in here and hear the guys say...add up your expenses, and this and that and what you need to make. They do, throw a 500 or 700% profit on top of that and ....well? You get people,plowing drives for 10 or 15 dollars.

Thats exactly why I hate hearing that said.

I suggest an industry "standard" and guys like Mick whip out federal websites on price fixing.

How many different ways do you guys want to have it.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

LLM Ann Arbor, either you're missing something in that formulae I wrote up or you're just trying to "stir the pot". If a person used what I wrote, there is no way you're going to "get people,plowing drives for 10 or 15 dollars" unless that's what fits your needs. You WILL get people plowing for enough to make expenses, plan for equipment replacement, plan growth and make a profit. There is no basis for an "industry standard" because all these factors will vary based on locale, goals and individual circumstances.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

And your comment: " What does it cost you to do a resi each time you do it." is shown as a statement although it is designed as a question. "What it costs" to actually perform the job is irrelevant to anything. You can figure what it costs using my original post.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Mick;329441 said:


> LLM Ann Arbor, either you're missing something in that formulae I wrote up or you're just trying to "stir the pot"..


He is just stiring the pot, I don't think anyone could be that dumb.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Mick;329441 said:


> LLM Ann Arbor, either you're missing something in that formulae I wrote up or you're just trying to "stir the pot". If a person used what I wrote, there is no way you're going to "get people,plowing drives for 10 or 15 dollars" unless that's what fits your needs. You WILL get people plowing for enough to make expenses, plan for equipment replacement, plan growth and make a profit. There is no basis for an "industry standard" because all these factors will vary based on locale, goals and individual circumstances.


Well I hope everyone in your town doesnt think 15 dollars a drive fits their needs in the future Mick.

Id hate to see you go out of business, or have to lower your prices to 15 to compete.

I was referencing more what Premier Land said about calculating costs. Not you, but I did reference you for laying all that price fixing stuff off on me when I said these drive are worth 30/35 dollars and thats what should be sortof standard fare.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

dlcs;329446 said:


> He is just stiring the pot, I don't think anyone could be that dumb.


So you're cool with a guy that gets 97 inches of snow per year doing drives for 200 a year?

lol

Thats good to know.

How much do you charge and where do you live. Lets do the math on you.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Mick;329444 said:


> And your comment: " What does it cost you to do a resi each time you do it." is shown as a statement although it is designed as a question. "What it costs" to actually perform the job is irrelevant to anything. You can figure what it costs using my original post.


Like I said....I was using Premiers post as a genesis for this,(not yours) and a lot of guys think that way, and thats why they plow drives for 10 or 15 dollars.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Mick;329441 said:


> LLM Ann Arbor, either you're missing something in that formulae I wrote up or you're just trying to "stir the pot". If a person used what I wrote, there is no way you're going to "get people,plowing drives for 10 or 15 dollars" unless that's what fits your needs. You WILL get people plowing for enough to make expenses, plan for equipment replacement, plan growth and make a profit. There is no basis for an "industry standard" because all these factors will vary based on locale, goals and individual circumstances.


Well....again Mick. I hope these cats dont come to your town with their goals and individual circumstances and drive your prices down.

Maybe their goal should be buying a calculator. Cuz the one they got aint workin.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

why dont one of the mods start writing and making sticky a post with the most popular plowing states average minimum per push and seasonal. make sure its a locked thread also cause you know way to many people will chime in and ruin it. we can debate the prices in another thread then a mod can post whatever we agreed on up in that thread. it sure would cut down on the useless every other day threads. i know it was one of my first posts and if there was something in a sticky about it i never would of asked especially it the sticky was straight to the point and i didnt have to fish through a bunch of posts.

something like....

*Michigan*

seasonal minimum-$300
per push minimum-$25

*New York*

seasonal minimum-$250
per push minimum-$20

*Ohio*

seasonal minimum-$350
per push minimum-$30


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## carcrz (Jun 5, 2006)

You guys are gonna cry when you hear this - I've been charging $90 for residential drives & to clean their sidewalks. Sidewalk is cleaned w/ snowblower & driveway is scraped w/ the plow. It takes me all of about 15 minutes. I have scheduled everything so that I do my commercial stuff first & then the residentials. Nobody has had any problems yet. I have a school teacher that needs to leave early so I hit hers on my way to another daycare. We only get around 25" a year so the ones that have questioned it, I let them know that the reason for the price is based on snowfall or the lack therof.


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## mike33087 (Feb 9, 2005)

*mass*

something like....

*Michigan*

seasonal minimum-$300
per push minimum-$25

*New York*

seasonal minimum-$250
per push minimum-$20

*Ohio*

seasonal minimum-$350
per push minimum-$30
[/QUOTE]

i charge a minimum of $500.00 for a seasonal contract just becuase u never know with new england weather 
and a minimum of $30.00 per push

i dont leave my driveway for anything less. i am not gonna be responsible or know as a lowballer in this town nor do i want to ruin the industry. Also im here to make money not do favors.


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## m_j_glover (Dec 2, 2006)

*Snow Fall*

Last Year in Lansing, Michigan we only had 2 days that even came close to 6 inches of snow....We didn't even get a total of 45 inches the whole season. Someone please tell me where you guys are getting these figures. It takes me 10 - 15 minutes to clear a sidewalk, porch and driveway with a snowblower, shovel and broom. Ann Arbor, MI has one of the highest costs of living in Michigan so I can understand the prices. However that is not the case all over Michigan...Let's not forget that different regions vary because of the economy.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

carcrz;329484 said:


> You guys are gonna cry when you hear this - I've been charging $90 for residential drives & to clean their sidewalks. Sidewalk is cleaned w/ snowblower & driveway is scraped w/ the plow. It takes me all of about 15 minutes. I have scheduled everything so that I do my commercial stuff first & then the residentials. Nobody has had any problems yet. I have a school teacher that needs to leave early so I hit hers on my way to another daycare. We only get around 25" a year so the ones that have questioned it, I let them know that the reason for the price is based on snowfall or the lack therof.


is that per visit or seasonal?

per visit- good for you
seasonal- that sucks


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

m_j_glover;329519 said:


> Last Year in Lansing, Michigan we only had 2 days that even came close to 6 inches of snow....We didn't even get a total of 45 inches the whole season. Someone please tell me where you guys are getting these figures. It takes me 10 - 15 minutes to clear a sidewalk, porch and driveway with a snowblower, shovel and broom. Ann Arbor, MI has one of the highest costs of living in Michigan so I can understand the prices. However that is not the case all over Michigan...Let's not forget that different regions vary because of the economy.


last year was not a good example to base a typical year on and we all know that


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

That would never work by the state. You would never get the prices in Hanna, Wyoming that you would get here. Nor would you get the same prices 1 1/2 hours from here. Different costs of living and community economics forbid that. There are a lot of places where people can still live on min. wage or slightly more. You need to charge what the market will bare for one, and you need to charge enough to cover all you expenses and still make a profit, with that should be your first priority. It is not just a cash flow thing, it is a business thing. If you know that someone is low balling, why not hire them to do all your drives and walks and expand your business? That would make more sense than constantly *****ing about low ballers.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

ECS;329602 said:


> That would never work by the state. You would never get the prices in Hanna, Wyoming that you would get here. Nor would you get the same prices 1 1/2 hours from here. Different costs of living and community economics forbid that. There are a lot of places where people can still live on min. wage or slightly more. You need to charge what the market will bare for one, and you need to charge enough to cover all you expenses and still make a profit, with that should be your first priority. It is not just a cash flow thing, it is a business thing. If you know that someone is low balling, why not hire them to do all your drives and walks and expand your business? That would make more sense than constantly *****ing about low ballers.


thats why its called an average


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## ECS (Nov 11, 2005)

*thats why its called an average*

Yeah, no kidding.

Just checked 6 prices in Mi and the average is *$48 per hour* for sub work. So is this average fair? Is this average going to help someone new? If the new person coming on here and asking about prices so they do not low ball comes from an area that pays great and, and sees the average, you or somoeone else would then class him as a low baller because he is charging too little for his area.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Yeah but doing 97 inches of snow for a total of 200 bucks? For the year? 

cripes sakes. Not me.

Id move to where the pickins were a little better.

If I was serious about staying in this business.

Im a litle ashamed of even talkin or arguing about it. Its a no brainer, and a no way.


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## m_j_glover (Dec 2, 2006)

*Understandable*



terrapro;329535 said:


> last year was not a good example to base a typical year on and we all know that


I started doing this stuff the season b4 last and still didn't get much snow. So what is a typical season?

If you or anyone else (in Michigan preferably) has any constructive suggestions that I can use feel free to call me at 517-980-0496 anytime before 5pm est.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

m_j_glover;329802 said:


> I started doing this stuff the season b4 last and still didn't get much snow. So what is a typical season?
> 
> If you or anyone else (in Michigan preferably) has any constructive suggestions that I can use feel free to call me at 517-980-0496 anytime before 5pm est.


Based on 89 years of record-keeping, Lansing averages 48.9" of snowfall annually. For a 2" trigger and studying the snowfall pattern, I'd suggest based your price on fifteen pushes per year. This doesn't mean you would actually push fifteen times, it simply means the the money generated by charging your 2" price times 15 would be a good yearly price (in my opinion - some would be more than 2"). If your trigger is 3", then try nine or ten.

If you're wondering where I got the data from: http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather.php3?s=93527&refer=


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Hey thats a killer site Mick. Thank you for sharing.

Ive been using this deal, and while decent, its not as good as yours.

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/online/ccd/snowfall.html


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## m_j_glover (Dec 2, 2006)

*Awesome*

Thank you Mick and LLM Ann Arbor, These are both great sites and thanks for the advice. I think I may now be able to get a better price for my work now. Now that that I have that info now all I need is a decent contract to use.


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## PremierLand (Jun 11, 2004)

ECS;329717 said:


> *thats why its called an average*
> 
> Yeah, no kidding.
> 
> Just checked 6 prices in Mi and the average is *$48 per hour* for sub work. So is this average fair? Is this average going to help someone new? If the new person coming on here and asking about prices so they do not low ball comes from an area that pays great and, and sees the average, you or somoeone else would then class him as a low baller because he is charging too little for his area.


I paid 65 last year, and there are guys getting 70-100 this year.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Wow. How much distance is there between Lansing (with 48") and Muskeegon (97")?

LL AnnArbor, I was wondering where you were getting the figure for Muskegon. When I checked, it became obvious that you knew what you were talking about, but didn't seem to know about that site I used.

Thing just aren't always as they appear.


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