# Howd I do my first time plowing?



## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

Howdy, my first time plowing was January 6th, and I figured I'd ask the pros (you guys) on how I did. This lot took me roughly 40 minutes and 20 more shoveling the walks.

http://s345.photobucket.com/user/Collision117/library/?view=recent&page=1


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

How much snow was on the lot?


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

As long as you didn't break or hit anything it's a good job. Hardly any snow, better than pushing a foot your first time !


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## Dirtebiker (Nov 10, 2016)

Doesn't look like there was even enough to plow, but if they're paying...!
Maybe 1/4"?


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

Actually, that was 1.25 inches. Our contract is we start plowing at 1 inch of snow and we get paid hourly. Didnt hit anything, and nothing on the truck or plow broke, which is great.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Unless you were instructed to do so, I wouldn't have put the snow by the wall and dumpster


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

dieselss said:


> Unless you were instructed to do so, I wouldn't have put the snow by the wall and dumpster


Thats where the Bank of America manager told me to put it. You can still get to the dumpster. Theres no where else to put it, other than the already limited parking spaces since its in the city (which im very glad I dont have to live in that horrible place)


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

Do any of you have any advice for when there is more snow? My boss told me stay far away from curbs, and dont go faster than 5 miles per hour when the blade is down.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

5 mph......yea almost never that slow honestly. Need a little speed to get the snow to move.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

dieselss said:


> 5 mph......yea almost never that slow honestly. Need a little speed to get the snow to move.


:laugh: Remember this is hourly...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Collision said:


> Howdy, my first time plowing was January 6th, and I figured I'd ask the pros (you guys) on how I did. This lot took me roughly 40 minutes and 20 more shoveling the walks.
> 
> http://s345.photobucket.com/user/Collision117/library/?view=recent&page=1


I think you did fine, you'll get faster and better and more comfortable every time you go out.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

You did just fine. Don't worry about speed for right now, that will come with experience. Just be safe and get it done. I'm pretty sure the first time I plowed it didn't turn out as good as yours did.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I looked at the pictures, no cheer leaders? It's when you get that 16 inch dump. That's when you get tested.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Always watch behind you.. my father is a semi rookie and loves backing into things with my 2nd truck


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

Randall Ave said:


> I looked at the pictures, no cheer leaders? It's when you get that 16 inch dump. That's when you get tested.


Well when its your first time plowing, you probably dont want to get tested with 16 inches of snow... in a 22 year old truck... with 321,000 miles... probably wouldn't have gone too well


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

iceyman said:


> Always watch behind you.. my father is a semi rookie and loves backing into things with my 2nd truck


That is a very good point! The locals seem to enjoy walking right behind me as I back up... i also added (2) 12 inch led light bars that come on automatically when I put it in reverse, which helped alot and keeps them from walking behind me.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I couldn't imagine plowing at 5mph. But sounds like you are plowing for someone else as your boss told you stay under 5 and far from curbs. If that is the case, then obviously do what the boss wants!


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

ktfbgb said:


> I couldn't imagine plowing at 5mph. But sounds like you are plowing for someone else as your boss told you stay under 5 and far from curbs. If that is the case, then obviously do what the boss wants!


If i had a guy who had neved plowed before i would probably say close to the same thing. Start slow And get the hang of it


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> I couldn't imagine plowing at 5mph. But sounds like you are plowing for someone else as your boss told you stay under 5 and far from curbs. If that is the case, then obviously do what the boss wants!


I am, Im a subcontractor, which makes sense in my situation (just starting out). Its kinda nice, as my boss says (who is an awesome boss) plow slow because s*** happens fast. The lots are also pretty small, so you probably couldn't go much faster than 10 mph before you had to be on the brakes. The one lot is literally just 10 spots in a row behind the rite aid...



WIPensFan said:


> I think you did fine, you'll get faster and better and more comfortable every time you go out.


I hope I get more comfortable, not concerned about speed either since as long as it takes a reasonable amount of time the clients dont care. And I get paid to drive between sites (20 minutes apart). The only thing that bothers me is I asked my boss if he flagged the parking lot... he used little white flags with the company logo on them... very easy to see when it snows and dont get buried first push.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

The more you do it, the better you will get, just go slow and be careful. It's obviously not a race..

I would put snow into / below the bushes where it adjoins the next property, and up over the individual curbs and into the guardrail area between. Make sure you're not dumping it onto the neighbor's property.

Pushing the snow up to the concrete curbs, stop, raise your blade 6" and push the snow piles over the curbs, and between the metal guard rail as long as it's not being used for walkways or onto another property.. The snow will deposit itself below and above the guardrail.

I had a job that a good portion of the snow had to go over the curb because, as you there was limited space to put it. You just can't slam the snow into it, as you potentially can rip out those curbs.


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

iceyman said:


> If i had a guy who had neved plowed before i would probably say close to the same thing. Start slow And get the hang of it


Well even my boss (has 20+ years of experience) goes about 5-7 miles per hour. He bids the job by the hour, not by the season.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

I would fall asleep plowing 5mph. Also snow would probably melt before I would be able to finish. Once the client notices the whiteheads are passing you in the lot they may realize you guys are milking the hourly rate.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

We all start oot at one time. Give it a couple seasons, learn the biz/routine and then go oot on your own and charge per push. You'll make mulch more an hour.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Collision said:


> Well even my boss (has 20+ years of experience) goes about 5-7 miles per hour. He bids the job by the hour, not by the season.


We bid per push.. unless its a small tight lot im def over 5mph


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

BUFF said:


> We all start oot at one time. Give it a couple seasons, learn the biz/routine and then go oot on your own and charge per push. You'll make mulch more an hour.


Well part of the problem is snow removal is the only thing I do, besides my "real" job. I dont do landscaping or anything. I also dont have much room for storage, for things like a saltspreader. I also have an old truck with a 30 year old plow, which isnt helping my situation of my image. Right now, im making 65 an hour, and I get paid to drive in between sites, even refueling.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Collision said:


> Well part of the problem is snow removal is the only thing I do, besides my "real" job. I dont do landscaping or anything. I also dont have much room for storage, for things like a saltspreader. I also have an old truck with a 30 year old plow, which isnt helping my situation of my image. Right now, im making 65 an hour, and I get paid to drive in between sites, even refueling.


It's good to start the way you are. If you decide you really like it in a couple years, you will figure out a way to upgrade equipment, trust me. And the storage thing can be taken care of with a storage unit rental, or a buddy with some extra space, or........ you get my drift. Doing it this way is good, worry about the other stuff later once you decide if it's for you or not.

Or you may decide that since you don't have the equipment on hand for year round work, that you just want to stick with being a sub. Nothing wrong with that either.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Umm $65.00ph are you working under your bosses liability's or your own? Looks like you done a good job. I know when I'm T&m I'm like a turtle in the mud, lol Just take your time be careful of whats around you. You will catch on with sometime. 7mph is okay in reverse in a small lots. Long runs turn around and keep wind rowing. Good Luck


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## BillyM83 (Jan 27, 2017)

I think you did a fine job, young buck. I agree with poster about pushing snow by those guard rails opposed to in front of the garbage cans. That snowfall looked pretty minimal. Invest in some wings for that ol western and you'll be amazed before you're halfway through. Keep pushin'


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

FredG said:


> Umm $65.00ph are you working under your bosses liability's or your own? Looks like you done a good job. I know when I'm T&m I'm like a turtle in the mud, lol Just take your time be careful of whats around you. You will catch on with sometime. 7mph is okay in reverse in a small lots. Long runs turn around and keep wind rowing. Good Luck


Im under the boss's liability... which is part of the reason I want to stay a subcontractor. Is 65ph good? He asked me how much i wanted and I just threw a shot in the dark.


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

BillyM83 said:


> I think you did a fine job, young buck. I agree with poster about pushing snow by those guard rails opposed to in front of the garbage cans. That snowfall looked pretty minimal. Invest in some wings for that ol western and you'll be amazed before you're halfway through. Keep pushin'


What are these wings I've been hearing about? Can anyone show me a thread that elaborates? The plow is already 8 foot 6, do the wings stick out to make it wider?


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## BillyM83 (Jan 27, 2017)

Collision said:


> What are these wings I've been hearing about? Can anyone show me a thread that elaborates? The plow is already 8 foot 6, do the wings stick out to make it wider?


Just drink a redbull :weightlifter:


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## BillyM83 (Jan 27, 2017)

http://centralparts.com/accessories...wing-extensions/western-plow-wing-extensions/


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

BillyM83 said:


> http://centralparts.com/accessories...wing-extensions/western-plow-wing-extensions/


Holy s*** thats a lot of dough. I might try to find the universal ones. Thanks everyone for being so positive! Its intimidating when everyone else has 4th gen rams, newer super duties, and you're out there with a 30 year old plow and 22 year old truck. Do you have any tips for how to break through the hard packed snow that cars make?


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## BillyM83 (Jan 27, 2017)

Collision said:


> Holy s*** thats a lot of dough. I might try to find the universal ones. Thanks everyone for being so positive! Its intimidating when everyone else has 4th gen rams, newer super duties, and you're out there with a 30 year old plow and 22 year old truck. Do you have any tips for how to break through the hard packed snow that cars make?


Pre-salt it. But, $$$$


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Collision said:


> Holy s*** thats a lot of dough. I might try to find the universal ones. Thanks everyone for being so positive! Its intimidating when everyone else has 4th gen rams, newer super duties, and you're out there with a 30 year old plow and 22 year old truck. Do you have any tips for how to break through the hard packed snow that cars make?


I wouldn't worry about those wings since they won't fit your plow anyway. Only wings I know about for your plow would be Pro Wings.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Collision said:


> Im under the boss's liability... which is part of the reason I want to stay a subcontractor. Is 65ph good? He asked me how much i wanted and I just threw a shot in the dark.


You are doing ok providing you don't need a LLC etc, or a GL or WC. Your like one of his employee's. You getting a 1099?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Collision said:


> Holy s*** thats a lot of dough. I might try to find the universal ones. Thanks everyone for being so positive! Its intimidating when everyone else has 4th gen rams, newer super duties, and you're out there with a 30 year old plow and 22 year old truck. Do you have any tips for how to break through the hard packed snow that cars make?


How much hard pack can you have with a 1'' trigger. Don't worry about the guys in new trucks. Maintain the one you own.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG said:


> You are doing ok providing you don't need a LLC etc, or a GL or WC. Your like one of his employee's. You getting a 1099?


1099 or a W2?
I et sounds like he is an employee.

A sub- contractor would have a business (llc) & the proper insurance prior to being hired to do the work he bid on.

If you're on his insurance then your a employee.

Ps I bid all of my work this year as seasional .


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

FredG said:


> How much hard pack can you have with a 1'' trigger. Don't worry about the guys in new trucks. Maintain the one you own.


Well those are only pictures from the first. The seccond was 4 inches. I have 4 or 5 sites to maintain, so it could be 2 or 3 hours before I get to a site again.



SnoFarmer said:


> 1099 or a W2?
> I et sounds like he is an employee.
> 
> A sub- contractor would have a business (llc) & the proper insurance prior to being hired to do the work he bid on.
> ...


I get a 1099, my boss says I dont need any additional insurance unless I am salting (which I dont salt). He says Im under his insurance. Is that wrong? I talked to my father, and he says that it makes sense. I am not a business, not llc or anything. 


BillyM83 said:


> Pre-salt it. But, $$$$


I dont salt, only plow


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

You should ask your insurance agent. If you hit something, or someone with that plow, you want to make sure you are covered.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

You need insurance becuse a 1099 is what you recive as a contractor or as a subcontractor.
You know a business that is hired by another business.

If you were a employee whom is covered by his Insurance then you would have recived
A w2

Go to the irs web site, https://www.irs.gov/businesses/smal...ependent-contractor-self-employed-or-employee

You are conducting business, You need to take the proper steps to insure your business and to safeguard your assets.


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

I talked to my insurance agent. He says since Im doing commercial lots only it doesn't matter, and I am under his liability. I just dont have workers compensation from my boss.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

You need a new insurance agent.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Do you have passenger or commercial plates?


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Collision said:


> I talked to my insurance agent. He says since Im doing commercial lots only it doesn't matter, and I am under his liability. I just dont have workers compensation from my boss.


Holy crap....


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

Randall Ave said:


> Do you have passenger or commercial plates?


Passenger


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## GrassManKzoo (Oct 8, 2016)

After the reading the last 8 or so posts... I think I'll be tagging along for the remainder


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

GrassManKzoo said:


> After the reading the last 8 or so posts... I think I'll be tagging along for the remainder


We choose our pathways in life. Some good, while others lead you off a cliff.

Some folks need to learn the hard way, and so be it.


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> We choose our pathways in life. Some good, while others lead you off a cliff.
> 
> Some folks need to learn the hard way, and so be it.


Im trying to learn here! What am I saying that is wrong? Please correct me. Do I need additional insurance? I asked my boss about getting 500k in general contractors insurance and he said it isnt necessary. And I asked my insurance agent and he said the same thing.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Collision said:


> Im trying to learn here! What am I saying that is wrong? Please correct me. Do I need additional insurance? I asked my boss about getting 500k in general contractors insurance and he said it isnt necessary. And I asked my insurance agent and he said the same thing.


If you want to be in business for yourself, you should talk to someone in your state that can help you properly protect yourself, as well as ensure your following your states rules, and federal regulations regarding your employee / sub contractor status. In a heartbeat your life can be forever altered by an "accident".


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

You need to take the time to,read the link I posted.
All of it,
Then go over it again.

Answer the questions.
Then come back and tell us what you are.
Somone who is being taken advantage of and or A employee or .........

And you need a new insurance agent.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Sno, Dog, and Kimber are exactly right. You really need to research this and protect yourself. They are absolutely correct, you need a new insurance agent.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

kimber750 said:


> You need a new insurance agent.


Not only an agent a good one too is not always cheapest.

You have slip and falls also.

Any and all of my subs are covered and " I " check to make sure.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Collision said:


> Well part of the problem is snow removal is the only thing I do, besides my "real" job. I dont do landscaping or anything. I also dont have much room for storage, for things like a saltspreader. I also have an old truck with a 30 year old plow, which isnt helping my situation of my image. Right now, im making 65 an hour, and I get paid to drive in between sites, even refueling.


A spreader is handy and you can make good money with one since if triggers aren't met of you have a ice event you're still creating income with minimal effort and wear and tear on the truck/plow.
I run a '97 f-350 (w/70Kmiles), ran a Meyer straight for years until I put a BOSS DXT in it 3 years ago. Since you're working hourly adding efficiency does pay oof, however when/if you venture oot on your own then it matters.
Most guys have at least a $1ml G/L policy, I have $2ml and to bump up was $50.00 a year. You're G/L cost should be based oof you income from plowing in this case, more exposure more liability. I will saw if you do something other than plowing that is a service based business (lawns, carpenter, plumber, etc..... You're plowing insurance would be mulch less than a stand alone policy.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Collision said:


> Im trying to learn here! What am I saying that is wrong? Please correct me. Do I need additional insurance? I asked my boss about getting 500k in general contractors insurance and he said it isnt necessary. And I asked my insurance agent and he said the same thing.


You haven't said anything wrong. Your getting bad advice on your end from your agent. And save some of that money. With the 1099, you have to claim it. And pay taxes on it. The dark side of business.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Collision said:


> I talked to my insurance agent. He says since Im doing commercial lots only it doesn't matter, and I am under his liability. I just dont have workers compensation from my boss.


How can your boss not cover you for WC? If your working under his liability's he has to. I'm sure your boss had to have proof of WC before he was awarded the job. This means if you were to get hurt you are covered on this property. WC is a liability you can't choose what you offer your employees you have to follow the law and the binder provided to the client.

If I'm wrong this is news to me. This Cvs or whatever that property is would have to cover you otherwise, I don't think this is the case. I have no idea what your insurance man is telling you.

If you had a llc etc this could be true. You could sign off as a sole operator maybe, Most clients want WC anyways. Sole or not.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

FredG said:


> How can your boss not cover you for WC? If your working under his liability's he has to. I'm sure your boss had to have proof of WC before he was awarded the job. This means if you were to get hurt you are covered on this property. WC is a liability you can't choose what you offer your employees you have to follow the law and the binder provided to the client.
> 
> If I'm wrong this is news to me. This Cvs or whatever that property is would have to cover you otherwise, I don't think this is the case. I have no idea what your insurance man is telling you.
> 
> If you had a llc etc this could be true. You could sign off as a sole operator maybe, Most clients want WC anyways. Sole or not.


I have worked for MANY commercial entities, some of them Billion dollar companies, most small mom and pop corporation types. Not one of them has ever requested ANY documentation for insurance, never mind WC.

Not one.

As matter of fact, in the last 15 years in business, only one customer asked me for proof of insurance. No one else ever has.

This doesn't mean I'm not properly insured, of which I am. I have 2 GL's and an umbrella that if I was to be covered for dying, my wife would be quite happy.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Furthermore sno is correct, You should be getting a W-2, Typically guys that are using subs without liability's are not straight shooters. This is why I asked if you were getting a 1099.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> I have worked for MANY commercial entities, some of them Billion dollar companies, most small mom and pop corporation types. Not one of them has ever requested ANY documentation for insurance, never mind WC.
> 
> Not one.
> 
> As matter of fact, in the last 15 years in business, only one customer asked me for proof of insurance. No one else ever has.


This maybe true, Your in a different state, Just the opposite for me. With the exception of a home owner sometimes.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

FredG said:


> This maybe true, Your in a different state, Just the opposite for me. With the exception of a home owner sometimes.


Yes,

And I agree with you completely. When I hire a sub, I have their ins company send me an accord with me listed as "Additional insured". If I don't get this, they don't get to do the work for me.

In business you need to CYA, and those who choose not to are very lucky, or dumb, or both.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm asked for WC and proof of Insurance at times.

As FredG said you should receive a W2 because he is treating you as an employee.
while enjoying the convenience of hiring a contractor.

As a contractor or a sub contractor you need GL Insurance. Like buff said , at least 1 mill, I dont think your boss is covering you. Did you give him your drivers lic and Info so he can send you info into his insurance agent and did you see prof that you are covered?

If you don't have copies of the paperwork there probably isn't any.


He owns you unemployment, wc coverage and your SS deduction.

In other words he, your boss is committing fraud and your liability exposure is huge....


ps OP have you read threw that link i posted?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

In US insurance policies, an *additional insured* is a person or organization that enjoys the benefits of being insured under an insurance policy, in addition to whoever originally purchased the insurance policy.[1][2][3] The term generally applies within liability insurance and property insurance, but is an element of other policies as well. Most often it applies where the original named insured needs to provide insurance coverage to additional parties so that they enjoy protection from a new risk that arises out of the original named insured's conduct or operations. An additional insured often gains this status by means of an endorsement added to the policy which either identifies the additional party by name or by a general description contained in a "blanket additional insured endorsement."[4]

Many contracts used in business require one party to cover another as an additional insured. This article will explain the purpose of additional insured coverage. It will also describe some pitfalls to watch out for when seeking additional insured coverage, or when providing it to another company.

*Risk of Lawsuits*
Many companies engage in business relationships with other firms. These relationships can create a risk of lawsuits.

Negligence committed by one company may trigger a lawsuit against the other. Here are some examples:


Premier Properties owns several apartment buildings. Premier hires Crafty Concrete, a paving contractor, to install a new concrete parking lot at one of Premier's buildings. Crafty Concrete leaves tools and equipment strewn around the work area. Jim, an apartment tenant, trips over a shovel and injures his leg. Jim seeks compensation from both Crafty Concrete and Premier Properties.
Fancy Foods operates a grocery store in retail space it rents from Buildings, Inc. Lisa, a grocery store customer, is injured at the store when a ceiling tile falls on her head. Lisa sues both the store and the landlord (Buildings Inc.) for bodily injury.
Able Appliances distributes refrigerators made by Handy Home Products. An Able salesperson is demonstrating a refrigerator feature to a customer when a panel snaps off the front door. Steve, the customer, is injured by the flying panel. He sues both the vendor (Able Appliance) and the Handy Home Products for bodily injury.

In each of the three examples, negligence committed by one company triggers an accident that results in a claim against the other company. Premier Properties, Buildings, Inc. and Able Appliance can protect themselves against such claims by demanding coverage as an additional insured under the other company's general liability policy.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Yes,
> 
> And I agree with you completely. When I hire a sub, I have their ins company send me an accord with me listed as "Additional insured". If I don't get this, they don't get to do the work for me.
> 
> In business you need to CYA, and those who choose not to are very lucky, or dumb, or both.


CYA lol, Ya I had enough life changing experience. Luck runs out and dumb you can't change. :laugh: :waving:


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

Here's the emails from my boss 

Damien yes magnets are provided when on sites. As long as you have insurance on your truck your good. The GL is only for companies salting lots so you are fine. 

Respectfully, 

Pete


As far as auto insurance you'd have to check with your company to see. They would have to know you are plowing obviously. Things to keep rates from going up with insurance 
1. Let them know commercial only not residential 
2. Most companies want to make sure you are not a plowing only company. Meaning they want to make sure you are a contractor or something and just do snow in slow season. 
3. They may or may not ask you your income. Saying 
$1,000 won't raise your rates. 

Respectfully, 

Pete

I did tell my insurance agent, and he said it doesn't matter and that Im covered.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I have a question, you have a magnetic on the side of your truck with his name on it? He can say your a contractor, but legally your an employee. And I have been sued, for no fault of my own. It's not fun, they drag on sometimes.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Collision said:


> Here's the emails from my boss
> 
> Damien yes magnets are provided when on sites. As long as you have insurance on your truck your good. The GL is only for companies salting lots so you are fine.
> 
> ...


Yes you would not be liable for slip and fall because your boss has the contract and his liability's would handle that. Get something in writing or at least a email- text that you are covered for plowing snow commercially. CYA, The 1099 is still a gray area but it does go on all the time. Make sure you pay tax on that 1099. This is something none of us can get away with. If could be 1yr or 20yr they will catch up with you.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Fred ,he is not covered he is a subcontractor who recived a 1099, the guy with the contract is not responsibel for the subcontractor.

He is a standalone business who need t be insured,
Reguardless of how his "boss" client is treating him.

Did you read that link?

What are you a employee or a contractor?

I can tell you what it sounds like from what you have posted.
Your an employee that is being taken advantage of.

You want to be a contractor, but in reality you ar a employee,
You need to recive a W2 and not a 1099, you are being taken advantage of.

Next, unless you see and read your insurance policy you dnt know what you are covered for.
Reguardless of what some agent tells you over the phone.

Your vehicel insurance doesn't cover your plow.
You need an additional policy, you can be sued for a slip fall, etc,etc

What the guy with the saLt truck has no bearing on if you need GL coverage or not.

You need to go talk to another insurance agent in person,
Tell them you are a contractor who plows snow/ parking lots. (And types of business you are servicing.
And you want at least one million in coverage.


Next do you have a LLC or the like?


Your liabelity exposure is considerable.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

If you recived a w2 and you gave your boss a copy of your drivers Lic so you were added to
Your bosses Insurance, you then would be an employee who would be covered under your bosses insurance.

With out proof you are flying blind and exposed.

Again first thing tomarrow go talk to another insurance agent,
Tell them you have a snow removal business you need to insure.

A consult with a CPA may not be a bad idea either.

Ps why do you go back to this client who is taking advantage of you for answers?

Or this agent that doesn't have a policy on you.
Becuse your auto insurance is not covering your snow plowing liabelity ..

Pss collision who old are you ? 
becuse you don't seem to have a grasp of the basics.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> If you recived a w2 and you gave your boss a copy of your drivers Lic so you were added to
> Your bosses Insurance, you then would be an employee who would be covered under your bosses insurance.
> 
> With out proof you are flying blind and exposed.
> ...


I did read the link. I'm not so sure that if I hire a contractor and he does not have liability's I as the contractor is not responsible. When I turn my liabilities in to be awarded a job and it is all they are asking for including WC. They personally don't care who I bring on the job or how I'm paying them with the acceptation of prevailing wage certified payroll. They have what they need in case of a issue from me and I am responsible.

I am no away arguing about the W-2 1099 thing you are right. If I'm dumb enough to hire a guy to plow and another guy to salt I am still responsible for slip and fall. This is why we ask for liability's from our subs. This happens all the time, The guys a good contractor and does not carry WC and he is below other bids lots of guys will use them, Even the City and inspectors don't care as long is they have your binder with WC.

This whole situation is a gray area to me. Let the OP get his feet wet, If he don't mind his boss plucking him out of SS, UE etc this is his decision. I highly doubt any of us are going to change his mind with his Dad and boss and insurance man telling him he is okay. Right, Wrong or indifferent.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

^ the OP needs to read it and answer the question honestly.
And you should all ready know the answer.


don't give a rats butt if he has WC from his own business as a sole propitiator he can opt out of wc.

He needs insurance to cover his business from a slip and fall. Reguardless.
All that has to happen is for somone to slip on a berm/ trail of snow he created or run into someone walking.
And he will be called onto the mat to answer, his boss surely doesn't want to pay.....
He'll say I sent him a 1099 he's a sub contractor who is responsibel for his business insurance needs and liabelity .
Then the battle will start, employee vs contractor.

The op is a employee reguardless of the 1099, but his boss is not listing him as a employee
In a effort to save money.

The op wants to be a contractor, but he is getting bad advice from Dad, his nsuramce agent, and the guy he is plowing for.

The op doesn't see how he can go liget and make money.
And he ran into a guy who is taking advantage of his lack of knolage and experience.
He should be having payroll deductions as he is a employee...


The op can ignore all of this, and hope for the best.
But if somthing should happen, ( I bet he lives at home) they could get his parents home
And he could be making payments for the rest of his life as it can't be discharged in a bankruptcy .

Just becuse he dint take the proper steeps to insure himself...

And that he isn't going to confront his " client" I mean boss over it....

So.
Good luck,

I'm done all the op cares about is making beer money on the side....


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> ^ the OP needs to read it and answer the question honestly.
> And you should all ready know the answer.
> 
> don't give a rats butt if he has WC from his own business as a sole propitiator he can opt out of wc.
> ...


I could send you a lot of places that don't care if your sole or not, You will provide WC or won't work there. No ? his boss is a hoodlum lol. Don't get all fired up I'm agreeing with you. Some Contractors take risks that most won't. In NY ultimately the boss would be at fault, They are just to stupid to care or no how to play the system. In NY you got hoodlums that been around for 30yrs. Most have changed there name 10 times and there assets are locked to a family member. Believe it or not they are very successful.

I once mentioned how a local contractor not like me 50 employee's told me that the fines for not paying the employee's insurance was a lot cheaper than the premiums. The people are probably more honest your way. NY is full of hoodlums. I learned a long time ago kids will do what they want to do including my own. You know they are going to fail like my son with the tavern deal. If he did not think he was so smart and listened to me the uneducated one he would still be there. One good thing he knows he should of listened to the old uneducated one now.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Holy cow. Yes, if he is 1099ing you it means he's treating you as a stand alone contractor. Doesn't matter if you have a business name or not (I've 1099ed people, not businesses, plenty of times), you are still being taxes as an employee. I'm no tax lawyer, but I would think you would just add whatever the 1099 says to your taxes along with other income from your other job. Not a bid deal there, but make sure you keep track of ALL expenses so you can write off everything and owe the least amount possible.

As far as insurance, it's been beaten to death already on this post and on plowsite in general. I would recommend talking to another insurance agent to get a second opinion. Maybe they know something I don't. I do know that I am also a subcontractor for snow removal. I have to have my own insurance for auto and GL. In my state the owner can opt out of WC for himself, unless he/she has employees. I do have employees and have to pay that as well. I always make my subs provide proof of insurance also.

I guess I don't understand why the fact that you are or aren't salting would make a difference as far as if you're held liable or not. If I had fallen and broken my leg and wanted to sue, I don't think my lawyer would tell me "sorry they don't have a salt spreader, we can't sue." Also, when you're driving to a lot or just driving around with your plow on, you need to have that plow added to your insurance or any damage caused by that plow.

Like I said I'd talk to a different agent or insurance company and see what they say. I wouldn't want to make a mistake that could cost me everything I own and even garnish paychecks after I have nothing left. Just look in to it a bit more. Hope everything keeps working out for you.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

OP this is being beat to death. But It seems like you need to hear it more. The guys on here are right, and they are trying to keep you from having your life ruined. Literally. You need to read the info on the link that Sno provided for you and honestly answer his question. The guy you are sub contracting for is a moron. Just because he said you are covered, does not make it so. And your insurance agent is a moron as well. Commercial plowing always costs more than residential in the eyes of the insurance company.

You are being taken advantage of. 

Here is what I do. I am the contractor and I hold all of my own contracts. I use subs as needed. For snow work, my subs all do the same work I do, so my general Liability covers me for the work they provide, because I have lines on my policy covering each thing. However, and this is a big however, anyone that operates as a sub that is using equipment (plow, skid steer, back hoe etc.) all need to have their own insurance. I have to show that my GL covers subs to get the contract in case they fail to keep the policy, are underinsured, etc. But, my GL provider will absolutely go after the sub to cover the damage, before they pay out on my end. Meaning that, even if I told you don't worry about it, you are covered under my GL, it would be a lie. I am covered under my GL to protect me against your actions. My GL is going to sue you for full cost of damages reguardless of wether you have insurance or if they have to take your house, and truck, and garnish your wages for the rest of your life.

If you received a 1099 you need to have GL insurance, and there isn't a personal auto insurance out there that will cover you if you get in an accident if you get in a wreck using the vehicle to make money. 

The only exception to this are my hand shovelers. They don't operate equipment so they are covered under my GL. I give them the option to be an employee, or a sub with a 1099. I explain the differences to them. Usually they decide to sub as they make more. I report the income, and if they didn't pay taxes on it, it's on them. I provide them with shovels, and safety vests. I show them the property and tell them the expectations of what a complete job looks like. Like snow removed edge to edge on the walks, and it needs to done by xxxx time. They can decide when to actually start as long as it's done on time. They usually ask for guidance like, what time should I start to get it done in time, and I provide that.

In order to be a 1099 sub contractor and not an employee I can not have command and control over them or Supervise them while they work, I can't tell them they have to start at this time and stop at this time, control breaks, etc. all I can do check the work for completeness at the end of the job, and if it's not to standard, have them fix it.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes I have lines in my GL to in particular (completed snow operations) We have sales people, mechanics that are commission based on 1099 all over. This does not mean if he starts someones car on fire he's responsible for the damage. This is why the shop has garage liability. Any business man can send someone to work on there job 1099 and be covered under there liability's if the contractor chooses to. You do not have to have a LLC or similar to be 1099 individual as well.

We have a audit once per year GL and WC. If you have subs- workers that you had 1099 they want to know and could affect your rates, WC is based on incidents and payroll w-2 or 1099, This reminds me of the drug test threads a couple weeks back. Blown way up. My wife writes prescriptions where she works and been tested once upon employment 15yrs ago. Give it a break. 

I agree as far as the op having insurance for plowing, Still whoever has the contract and the GL WC binder with the client is responsible. If it was that easy to pass the buck because you choose to hire a guy without a GL I would not own no plow trucks. If you send someone on your job without proper insurance or supervision your GL will pay. Not saying some ambulance chaser would not try to go after the OP. They will need a soft jury and judge for that to happen. 

In most injury cases in a court of law the proper supervision is a key factor. You are neglectful without proper supervision. Of course you make more 1099 no one pays the SS, UE etc.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

FredG said:


> Yes I have lines in my GL to in particular (completed snow operations) We have sales people, mechanics that are commission based on 1099 all over. This does not mean if he starts someones car on fire he's responsible for the damage. This is why the shop has garage liability. Any business man can send someone to work on there job 1099 and be covered under there liability's if the contractor chooses to. You do not have to have a LLC or similar to be 1099 individual as well.
> 
> We have a audit once per year GL and WC. If you have subs- workers that you had 1099 they want to know and could affect your rates, WC is based on incidents and payroll w-2 or 1099, This reminds me of the drug test threads a couple weeks back. Blown way up. My wife writes prescriptions where she works and been tested once upon employment 15yrs ago. Give it a break.
> 
> ...


I think the main argument here is employee vs. sub contractor. The IRS specifically states that if you maintain the right to supervision over the person, they are automatically an employee. Per the IRS you can not maintain a supervisory role over a 1099. You can tell them what needs to be done, sidewalks have to shoveled by 7am, I need you to run a new hot cold supply with a drain and trap over here, add a circuit to the panel and add 3 outlets to this room. But you can not tell them how to do it, or they are no longer a sub.

Yes the contractor can elect to cover subs, but like I said the way I do it is if they are running snow removal equipment I make them be insured. It will effect me on my annual audit and I'll have to pay extra for the year. So I make sure everyone I use gives me a certificate of insurance to submit for my audit. Hand shovelers dont up my premium so I cover them on my GL because there is no impact to me.

From the way it sounds, this Boss is taking advantage of him. I would need to see it in writing in the form of my business being named as additional insured on the Ryder, to not pay insurance for that job. Other wise this guy could leave him high and dry.

As far as injury goes, since they are not my employee, the sub is it's own business and can't come after me for injury on the job. Supervision isn't a factor since legally I'm not allowed to supervise them because they aren't my employee. Just like my plumbers helper can't come after me for work comp because he cut his finger off with his bosses pipe cutter. He has to go after his bosses Work Comp.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I also don't have to pay any work comp in my state for subs. Payroll is what they look at, 1099 subs are not payroll. They are a business expense, like professional fees and the like. It is assumed that since the sub is its own business, they are following the law and paying for WC if they have an employee. If they aren't then they will get caught.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I guess I should also clarify about my GL going after the Sub since I was trying to give the OP insite, and not single you out Fred. I wasn't arguing what you were saying. So my GL will cover the damage to the property of the contract I hold. They will then start looking for anyone they can sue to recover the money if it's deemed I am not at fault for the damage. Just like my personal auto coverage will pay for my bill in an accident if I am not at fault, if the the person who is at fault is uninsured. After they pay my bill, they sue the person without the insurance and since it wasn't my fault it won't effect my rates. Same with my GL. If I have a sub operating equipment as a sub, they are supposed to have insurance. My GL will cover my clients property, and then go after the sub. If I'm not at fault my rates don't go up, just because the sub stopped paying his premium after he submitted his certificate of insurance to me.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

If your sub stops paying his premium you will be notified way before the policy cancels. You proved my point, Your GL will cover the damages or injury's. Whoever the attorneys go after is anybody's guess. They could go after the property owner too. Stand a lone individuals are covered under your WC to if a binder is not provided. I was once asked to do some drainage work at a school by a big contractor.

When I went to provide my liabilities to the Contractor my insurance company wanted a one time fee to work on this property, I would not go because of the extra premium. A few days later he asked me if I would go under his liability's I accepted. I went out meant with the inspector and the work was performed. The job was prevailing wage my two guy payroll were payed by the contractor so I did not have to set up certified payroll. My end was payed in check and I received a 1099.

Remember these inspectors are responsible for making sure everybody is properly insured and will ask your guys names to make sure they are payed the prevailing wage. And as a Contractor if the guys and subs are not payed you the contractor will not get payed either. 

When my close friend built his house under my company name they wanted to know who was performing the work. They asked for liability's for the guys working there. I told them most don't have a GL or WC and told them I got it all covered. The house is built and inspected and occupied.

He payed everybody with his own checks including me and it is over. I'm not explaining anymore if we don't agree between these threads and my above threads we just are not going to agree. Negligence and supervision will be your biggest hurdles in a court of law. I been hurt enough times and been there. Most of the time I was on the losing end and did not get enough to even cover my check that I could of earned. I'm not saying the OP's boss is right and the OP should check on insurance. My point is I can hire anybody I trust or choose to work under my liabilities without any trouble with the law. 

I don't want to live in a glass room. Have professionals and leave the jokers home you will be fine. I seen death more than once from some loud mouth joker not paying attention. All because of some hairless foreman not telling him to shut his mouth and be safe and pay attention or walking him off the job. These same company's with deaths and multiple injury's are still in business and are still living in there homes. Give it a break for gods sake.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

real et in Fred.

to clear up the muddy water.
(then i might be done hitting this horse that the op doesn't know exists.

Are you _really_ an Independent Contractor, or...?

Independent contractors who don't know about - or who ignore - the relevant aspects of current independent contractor tax law are endangering their own livelihoods. Worse, they pose a significant threat to their client companies.

The IRS routinely funds EDD to conduct independent contractor-related corporate tax audits. Such audits can last several months and the resources required to respond to them can bring a small or even mid-sized company to its knees. If your client company loses its fight, the interest and penalties (for failing to withhold and pay employment and income taxes, and provide you with benefits) can amount to 50 percent of the money it paid you. And if the company has hired other contractors within the past few years, it's almost a guarantee that each of those relationships will be audited as well.

If your client gets audited and ruled to have been your employer, you're likely to be audited too. At the very least, any business deductions you claimed against your supposed 'independent contractor' income from that company will be disallowed. And if you didn't accurately report your income, you can expect additional penalties such as the obligation to surrender 30 percent of future income from all sources (a privilege known as 'backup withholding'). Add to these challenges the fact that you've probably lost your client, and you'll wish you'd known better.

Forewarned is forearmed. The IRS' rules governing who is and isn't an independent contractor are arbitrary and inconsistently applied, but knowing them - and specifically knowing the "right" answers - will help keep you and your clients safe.

The following are IRS' *20 Common Law Factors* (or "20 Questions") to determine whether workers are employees. The answers most favorable to independent contractors and their clients follow in parentheses, with illustrative (but not comprehensive) comments in red.


Are you required to comply with instructions about when, where, and how the work is to be done? (No.)
Among other things, this means you should schedule meetings collaboratively, you shouldn't use your client's equipment, tools, or office space on a regular basis, and your name shouldn't appear in the company directory much less on the wall near your ... uhh ... coffee cup.

Does your client provide you with training to enable you to perform a job in a particular method or manner? (No.)
Your client must not provide you with more than minimal training. For products you cannot be expected to learn on your own, you must pay market price to attend training sessions that the client provides for its customers.

Are the services you provide integrated into your client's business operation? (No.)
If you perform the same services as an existing or recently departed employee, you're an employee. To qualify as an independent contractor, you must provide only those services that the company needs occasionally and that are incidental to its central business.

Must the services be rendered by you personally? (No.)
If you are contractually obligated to provide all services personally, or put another way you are contractually forbidden to subcontract any part of that service, you're an employee.

Do you have the capability to hire, supervise, or pay assistants to help you in performing the services under contract? (Yes.)
You must be able unilaterally to engage one or more contract or staff workers to help you provide the contracted service. A client who forbids you to hire helpers has sealed their own fate in an independent contractor-compliance audit.

Is the relationship between you and the person or company you perform services for a continuing relationship? (No.)
Your service must be occasional and incidental to the client company's central business. Repeat engagements are fine, but long continuous assignments are considered irrefutable proof of employment.

Who sets the hours of work? (You do.)
If you allow your work hours to be dictated by your client, either by precedent (consistently making yourself available when the client's workers are available) or explicitly in your contract, you look a lot less independent to a contractor-compliance auditor.

Are you required to devote your full time to the person or company you perform services for? (No.)
If your client explicitly demands all your time and forbids you from accepting other projects concurrently, you're that company's employee.

Is the work performed at the place of business of the potential employer? (No.)
If your client demands that you perform all your services at their site or hinders your efforts to work offsite, you're that company's employee.

Who directs the order or sequence in which the work must be done? (You do.)
If your client demands that you perform your services in a specific order, you're that company's employee.

Are you required to provide regular written or oral reports to your client? (No.)
If your client demands regular, detailed status reports and won't settle for the explanations typically included in an invoice, an auditor is much more likely to consider you that company's employee.

What is the method of payment - hourly, commission or by the job? (Contigency- or project milestone-based payments are ideal.)
Being paid exclusively for hours worked makes you appear to be a wage slave. Synergistech recommends defining milestones in your contract and documenting your progress toward them in each invoice. We also advise invoicing in the name of your business, not as an individual.

Are your business and/or traveling expenses reimbursed? (No.)
Your business and travel expenses are deductible against income you earn as an independent contractor. Not incuring these costs makes you look like an employee.

Who furnishes tools and materials used in providing services? (You do.)
If you don't incur the expense of providing your own tools, training, and other necessities for your services, you're an employee.

Do you have a significant investment in facilities used to perform services? (Yes. The more substantial your investment, the better.)
Many otherwise compliant contractors fail to expose themselves to the risk of losing money. If you can't demonstrate investments in your own tools, training, marketing, insurance, and similar business expenses, your independence will be questioned.

Can you realize both a profit or a loss? (Yes.)
This question is pivotal - for many auditors, exposure to the risk of losing money is the single biggest differentiator between an employee and a contractor.

Can you work for a number of firms at the same time? (Yes.)
A true independent contractor can, and when possible should seek to, work for multiple clients concurrently. Synergistech recommends that you never stop marketing yourself and that you take seriously all opportunities, regardless of whether you're currently fully engaged.

Do you make your services available to the general public? (Yes)
Real independent contractors have their own web site, are listed in relevant business directories, and conduct marketing campaigns to emphasize that they're in business and demonstrate that they can be found by those seeking their services.

Are you subject to dismissal for reasons other than nonperformance of contract specifications? (No.)
If you can be terminated because your client has a layoff, or decides to hire a staff employee to fill your role, you're not all that independent. At-will termination makes you look like an employee. Unless you've violated the contract yourself, insist on at least two weeks' notice.

Can you terminate your relationship without incurring a liability for failure to complete a job? (It depends.)
Yes, if you're working on a time-and-materials basis and invoicing hourly. No, if you're working on a project, or milestone, basis - in this case you are obligated to deliver on your commitments if you wish to be paid for your efforts.
There's no 'passing grade' for this test. Auditors assign relevance to each factor subjectively at the time of the audit. And filling out the IRS' Form SS-8 is suicide - it's a veritable admission of guilt. Essentially, the key to being judged a true independent contractor is to walk, talk, look, feel, and smell like a business.

In this context, technical communicators who do everything else "right" are often faulted for not having multiple concurrent clients and multiple personnel. For them, some argue, getting beyond being a one-person business is the most important indicator of professional independence.

As you can see, the 20 Questions are not an easy hurdle to clear.

Incidentally, the '20 Questions' were distilled from the '50 Factors' an annotated copy of which appears here. The explanations for many of these factors are helpful in understanding how auditors arrive at their decisions.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

the rest of the story 
as for dad and your insurance guy...

*Auto policy coverage*
An auto policy provides coverage during the plowing process. For example, if your truck accidentally hits a parked car and scrapes its side, your auto policy would pay for damage to the parked vehicle.

*Completed operations liability and coverage*
What about your liability after the snow plowing operation is done aka "completed operations"?


What is the condition of the surface?
Is there snow/ice remaining?
What if someone slips and falls?
Does your auto policy provide coverage? "No" because the vehicle was not involved.
To have "completed operations" liability coverage in the event of a slip/fall claim or other situation, it is critical for a snow plowing business to have a general liability policy.

*Other issues to keep in mind.*

The value of a snow plow and hitching equipment is not covered by a personal or commercial auto policy unless it is listed as optional equipment. Provide your agent with a receipt or documentation so that the value of your plowing equipment can be added to your policy.
If using your personal vehicle to plow for a fee, your auto policy needs to be classified for "Business Use"; otherwise, you may have a problem in a claim situation.
If you are required to list an "Additional Named Insured" on the policy, you will need a commercial auto policy not a personal auto policy..


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LOL I'm am real, We have a executive CPA that is a family member that looks at are books every 3 months. This is who we put are trust in, I'm not much on links except for a simple reference maybe, I have seen guys almost do time over IRS issues and cost them $200k lucky they could come up with it. Along with a full time Irs employee in there office for 6 months.

I am not a tax crook unless I can score some cash which is getting very hard to do. We don't lie to CPA I'm not feared of much but the IRS definitely causes some fear if not flying straight. My wife's income and future is involved in all this and works hard with our CPA.

I have had no trouble with my audits. If I do my CPA signs off on all my docs and he can handle it with or without a tax attorney whatever it takes. For sure the IRS is tightening up on 1099 the reason being half or more don't report the income. Plenty of companies have done away with them period, Reason being they have to have the hassle of garnishing wages. My threads are real life experiences I'm not just blowing smoke. 

At this point all as I can say is I'm running my biz by the law. If my CPA and my insurance agent are wrong I guess I have a problem. This is my choice how to run my biz, You don't have to agree this is your choice.

Furthermore I will fire who I want when I want. If union layed off.

OP, We all started somewhere, And if not our ancestors. Just cover your butt and have in writing that you are insured to plow, If you don't want to get plucked on your SS etc tell him you want a W-2. Make your own mind up. If you mess up you have to pay for it. Or get LLC even a DBA and a GL policy with snow operations and get a spreader. You also understand the $65ph won't cut it then. You will also need storage for materials, Salt. Unless you use a tailgate spreader than you can use bag salt.

Good luck


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

So you'll hire the the Ileagal worker, the uninsured contractor and the :terribletowel:?

That's just good business.

Your right I don't have to agree with your practices, the the IRS & the dept of jobs does...
I've never been audited.


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

This thread exploded! I understand taxes fairly well on how they work, with a 1099 being you pay after, nothing during the season. I have been keeping all my receipts and logging miles. As for insurance, my agent (good friend may I add) says if I was to add a rider to my insurance for the plow, itd just increase the value of the truck. If I was to get into an accident while the blade is up, itd be treated like a normal accident. If I was to get into an accident with the blade down, itd be under his "umbrella ". I talked to Pete, my boss, and he says yes thats how it works. I do not believe Pete is trying to scam me, and I feel he is telling the truth. My 65ph was based on not needing additional insurance, and just doing exactly what Im doing, paying for wear and tear on my truck, and fuel. I am now looking into becoming an LLC to cover my a$$.


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

FredG said:


> LOL I'm am real, We have a executive CPA that is a family member that looks at are books every 3 months. This is who we put are trust in, I'm not much on links except for a simple reference maybe, I have seen guys almost do time over IRS issues and cost them $200k lucky they could come up with it. Along with a full time Irs employee in there office for 6 months.
> 
> I am not a tax crook unless I can score some cash which is getting very hard to do. We don't lie to CPA I'm not feared of much but the IRS definitely causes some fear if not flying straight. My wife's income and future is involved in all this and works hard with our CPA.
> 
> ...


I dont salt, and definetly dont plan on it. If I was to salt, Id be looking for probably 85ph


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

SnoFarmer said:


> real et in Fred.
> 
> to clear up the muddy water.
> (then i might be done hitting this horse that the op doesn't know exists.
> ...


Then it really sounds like I'm an employee then. What steps do I take now?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Collision said:


> This thread exploded! I understand taxes fairly well on how they work, with a 1099 being you pay after, nothing during the season. I have been keeping all my receipts and logging miles. As for insurance, my agent (good friend may I add) says if I was to add a rider to my insurance for the plow, itd just increase the value of the truck. If I was to get into an accident while the blade is up, itd be treated like a normal accident. If I was to get into an accident with the blade down, itd be under his "umbrella ". I talked to Pete, my boss, and he says yes thats how it works. I do not believe Pete is trying to scam me, and I feel he is telling the truth. My 65ph was based on not needing additional insurance, and just doing exactly what Im doing, paying for wear and tear on my truck, and fuel. I am now looking into becoming an LLC to cover my a$$.


So the rest of us and the folks in the industery, and the auto insurance companeys and the lawyers are all wrong.

What I posted is the law in every state.

If you don't have a polity in hand that says such you don't have coverage.
Go get your policy and read it,

It's free to go to another agent with your policy and get their opinion and the facts.
Becuse your getting alternative facts....

I know you keep going back to the same people over and over , with the same question, you get the same answer , and between you and me you havent talked to anyone in the last few days ...
it's time for a change...

Good to hear, we're making headway
Setting up a LLC is cheap, you can do it yourself on line ,
Then get the proper Insurance .

Then figure out what you charge for a hr of your time....

Ps, as a contractor, never put / post your clients add / business on your door.
This makes you , a employee. Your not under his control nor do you work under his name/business.
You post your business or nothing..


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

SnoFarmer said:


> So the rest of us and the folks in the industery, and the auto insurance companeys and the lawyers are all wrong.
> 
> What I posted is the law in every state.
> 
> ...


The rule is when you are working, you have the magnetic signs on the side of your truck...


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Collision said:


> The rule is when you are working, you have the magnetic signs on the side of your truck...


Who's rule? Once you put a business name on a vehicle does that not make it a commercial vehicle requiring commercial insurance? Not sure since I won't even put bumper stickers on my vehicles. But not a concern of mine since my work vehicles all already on a commercial policy.

Sounds like your boss is taking advantage of you. Question is where is Ben the plowsite insurance guy?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Collision said:


> The rule is when you are working, you have the magnetic signs on the side of your truck...


Plenty of comershail plow rigs without a name or dot # running legally .

Puttin his business name on your busness truck showes that he is n control ,
It showes that your truck is his, this is what a employee does.

How to confront him, go easy ask questions, offer options that don't cost him much if anything.
You could get fired or you can form a business relationship.

It's to his benifet that you are set up with a LLC and get insurance.
As it looks like he wants a subcontractor.

We just want you to CYA, becuse when things go south in this industery is goes south fast and it costs $$$

Teep trying it can be had starting out.

We all learned these lessons .


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> So you'll hire the the Ileagal worker, the uninsured contractor and the :terribletowel:?
> 
> That's just good business.
> 
> ...


No we don't hire aliens or :terribletowel: I never had a IRS audit either, I was referring GL and WC audit. Let the IRS audit when ever they want. I have nothing to hide. I trust in the professionals we work with only. Not on opinions or links. LOL dept of labor?? I will not give my opinion publicly. I don't hire subs. The work we do is on our own or I am a sub excluding snow.


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

kimber750 said:


> Who's rule? Once you put a business name on a vehicle does that not make it a commercial vehicle requiring commercial insurance? Not sure since I won't even put bumper stickers on my vehicles. But not a concern of mine since my work vehicles all already on a commercial policy.
> 
> Sounds like your boss is taking advantage of you. Question is where is Ben the plowsite insurance guy?


Pete's rule, its in the contract I signed.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG said:


> No we don't hire aliens or :terribletowel: I never had a IRS audit either, I was referring GL and WC audit. Let the IRS audit when ever they want. I have nothing to hide. I trust in the professionals we work with only. Not on opinions or links. LOL dept of labor?? I will not give my opinion publicly. I don't hire subs. The work we do is on our own or I am a sub excluding snow.


Yet, you said, you read the IRS link earlier , and the other stuff ain't opinion it's the law...

It could be under the dept of labor, 
but I don't do links,
Yet you are full of opinions .,,,,:terribletowel:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Collision said:


> This thread exploded! I understand taxes fairly well on how they work, with a 1099 being you pay after, nothing during the season. I have been keeping all my receipts and logging miles. As for insurance, my agent (good friend may I add) says if I was to add a rider to my insurance for the plow, itd just increase the value of the truck. If I was to get into an accident while the blade is up, itd be treated like a normal accident. If I was to get into an accident with the blade down, itd be under his "umbrella ". I talked to Pete, my boss, and he says yes thats how it works. I do not believe Pete is trying to scam me, and I feel he is telling the truth. My 65ph was based on not needing additional insurance, and just doing exactly what Im doing, paying for wear and tear on my truck, and fuel. I am now looking into becoming an LLC to cover my a$$.


This happens all the time, It's the difference in work practices and opinions, If your serious about moving snow talk with the professionals. This Pete could add you to his policy I'm not saying he's trying to scam you. His GL, WC will know about you anyways your getting a 1099. He's not paying you cash.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> Yet, you said, you read the IRS link earlier , and the other stuff ain't opinion it's the law...
> 
> It could be under the dept of labor,
> but I don't do links,
> Yet you are full of opinions .,,,,:terribletowel:


Your not a attorney or cpa, And yes I am full of opinions just like everybody else including you. Now what Mr :terribletowel:


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

FredG said:


> This happens all the time, It's the difference in work practices and opinions, If your serious about moving snow talk with the professionals. This Pete could add you to his policy I'm not saying he's trying to scam you. His GL, WC will know about you anyways your getting a 1099. He's not paying you cash.


To be perfectly honest, unlike most guys on here, im not that serious about it. I kinda just do it for some extra spending money. Pete said if I dont put the magnets on the side im not covered under the insurance


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Lol but my wife is a CPA in her spare time doing taxes for a large local tax /investmentCO their clients are some good size business too.

You nor I, well , most can easely understand the law when they read it without a lawer to interpret what it says, but I'm sure you do....need et explained in a very slow manner.

Not being a lawyer doesn't change the easely to understand laws and facts that pertain to the subject at hand.

Ps
wage and hour division is under the dept of labor but that isn't here or there.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Collision said:


> To be perfectly honest, unlike most guys on here, im not that serious about it. I kinda just do it for some extra spending money. Pete said if I dont put the magnets on the side im not covered under the insurance


In the state of NY you will have dot #'s and business name on the side of your truck.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG said:


> In the state of NY you will have dot #'s and business name on the side of your truck.


For the rest of us who want to know the law is here is a link, to bad Fred doesn't belive in links....
Click on the box and et will take you threw some easy to answer questions.
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration/do-i-need-usdot-number

I answered the simple questions and I don't need a DOT#


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> Lol but my wife is a CPA in her spare time doing taxes for some good size business too.
> 
> You nor I, well , most can easely understand the law when they read it without a lawer to interpret what it says, but I'm sure you do....need et explained in a very slow manner.
> 
> ...


So what, My Brothers a CPA for NYSEG and is in china now working at the main office for a couple days.
And watches my biz closely. When I need a attorney I get one. I'm not sure a link is enough defense. I read fine just cause I don't believe everything on the net is my decisions. I'm not that gullible.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Collision said:


> To be perfectly honest, unlike most guys on here, im not that serious about it. I kinda just do it for some extra spending money. Pete said if I dont put the magnets on the side im not covered under the insurance


Your not covered unless you have paperwork saying you are sign or no sign

His sigen is advertising, he's afraid of having his client seeing some else doing the work.

So you just want to do this part time, you still need a LLC and insurance.
Or he hires you as a employee and you fill out a w2, give him a copy of your drivers Lic so he can send it to his insurance agent, that ask for prof of coverage.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG said:


> So what, My Brothers a CPA for NYSEG and is in china now working at the main office for a couple days.
> And watches my biz closely. When I need a attorney I get one. I'm not sure a link is enough defense. I read fine just cause I don't believe everything on the net is my decisions. I'm not that gullible.


Of course he is and does....
Why wouldn't he.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> For the rest of us who want to know the law is here is a link, to bad Fred doesn't belive in links....
> Click on the box and et will take you threw some easy to answer questions.
> https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration/do-i-need-usdot-number
> 
> I answered the simple questions and I don't need a DOT#


I did not ask you a ? I was replying to the OP. I know what I need on my trucks and it comes from NYSDOT. I don't need a link.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

So what, you chimed in on my posts and I wasn't talking to you..
Now what?

From some NYDOT site https://www.dot.ny.gov/modal/truck
But feel free to consult your other brother the lawyer.

New York State has adopted the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations found in title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations (49 CFR)

From NYDOT 
*Do I need a USDOT Number?*
If you operate a truck for _business purposes_ with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or a truck and trailer with a gross combination vehicle weight rating (GCWR) of 10,001 lbs. or more, you need a USDOT number.

_*Note:* Trucks used strictly for personal (non-business) or recreational use do not require a USDOT Number!_

Commonly asked questions and answers related to the requirements for obtaining a USDOT number.

*How do I determine my GVWR or GCWR?*
It is important to remember that your vehicle may or may not be registered with the same weight as the GVWR. In order to find your GVWR, you need to examine your vehicle.


On trucks, the GVWR is normally printed inside the door jam, behind the driver's seat, or in the glove box.
On trailers, you will normally find the GVWR on the tongue.
In order to compute the gross combination weight rating GCWR, simply add the GVWR of the truck to the GVWR of the trailer. The total is the GCWR. This is the maximum weight that the manufacturer rates for the vehicles, including the weight of the vehicles, and the maximum load weight.


*The Application Process and Displaying a USDOT Number*
Regulations require you to display a USDOT number, whether you operate wholly within New York State (intrastate) or across state lines (interstate). Remember, even if you operate more than one vehicle, you only need one USDOT number. The number is used to identify your business and is required to be on each commercial motor vehicle operated.

You can receive your USDOT number immediately, by registering online with the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration's Unified Registration System







. You will need a valid credit card. The card serves as an electronic signature. There is no charge for an "Intrastate" number. While currently, there is no fee for obtaining a USDOT number, after September 30, 2016, there will be a charge of $300.00 for "Interstate" USDOT numbers.

NYSDOT can no longer process applications for new USDOT numbers

Here is a link

https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/operating/osss/truck/registration-licensing

Fred can you show me and the op where is sayes he will need a DOT #
Becuse I'm missing et...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> So what, you chimed in on my posts and I wasn't talking to you..
> Now what?
> 
> From some NYDOT site https://www.dot.ny.gov/modal/truck
> ...


You know what, Your like dealing with that spoiled geek in high school. Why would you send me a link to NYSDOT. My trucks are cut and done and I know what it takes to get them. Bravo none of us need attorneys or CPA no more. Just ask sno the link finder, Take the links to court and argue your case or the IRS. Never mind my brother, Verify whatever you need with the geek squad.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)




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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

FredG said:


> You know what, Your like dealing with that spoiled geek in high school. Why would you send me a link to NYSDOT. My trucks are cut and done and I know what it takes to get them. Bravo none of us need attorneys or CPA no more. Just ask sno the link finder, Take the links to court and argue your case or the IRS. Never mind my brother, Verify whatever you need with the geek squad.


Then you need to take your own advice...
By your own admission what is posted is just a pile of alternative facts.

You dragged your bro into et....

Cut and done?.
What is that, some CPA term?

The op doesn't need to LC his truck for over 10k so no DOT number, even a monkey can comprehend that.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

As I've asked so many times, ignore someone you don't want to converse with rather than, always (yes the same few) trying to start a problem...so, AGAIN, ignore or don't respond to others you don't want to (or can't) engage with


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> Then you need to take your own advice...
> By your own admission what is posted is just a pile of alternative facts.
> 
> You dragged your bro into et....
> ...


Ya okay, Perry Mason, :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

It's called discussing alternative viewpoints.
Debating can look like arguing to some.

im not conversing with the one, i'm conversing with anyone and everyone.

Mr.Mason is defcon's Dad....

Op.
You can always plow residentail drives the cost of insurance and liabelity exposure is much less than plowing lots for business.

You can still plow for him a a sub just ditch the sigen and get yourself insured.
If if somone does slip and fall the lawyers will drag in everyone who plowed, shoveled and or salted the lot
In to court.

Ain't that right Fred?

His ins is going to say you are not covered by us, ( unles you have somthing from them saying otherwise )and your boss is going to say your a subcontractor
Leaving you out in the cold.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LOL I don't know, I got to puff puff give and medicate so I can think straight after that last discussion. I'll be back. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Latter :terribletowel:

:waving:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

In the event of a slip and fall the attorneys will drag everybody and anybody including the client. I think I understand the insurance thing on your truck which will be okay. The ? is did Pete add you to his GL. This is important because he don't have to be scamming you maybe he thinks its ok because he has a GL. But if your not added I guarantee is GL will throw you to the dogs. Unless there is some kind umbrella that covers subs that I don't know about.

You said something about a contract you had with Pete? Could this be added to your post with the exception of names, numbers etc? Are you 21 and not in college and living on your own? How well do you know Pete? Is he a long time biz man and what does he do in the summer months?

I'm not just trying to be nosy, I like the $65.00ph but you have to do it right. Even tho we get a little out of line and disagree with each other it still boils down to helping you. We won't blow it up again. Just answer a few ?'s that we ask. No long threads right to the point. Thumbs Up


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

FredG said:


> In the event of a slip and fall the attorneys will drag everybody and anybody including the client. I think I understand the insurance thing on your truck which will be okay. The ? is did Pete add you to his GL. This is important because he don't have to be scamming you maybe he thinks its ok because he has a GL. But if your not added I guarantee is GL will throw you to the dogs. Unless there is some kind umbrella that covers subs that I don't know about.
> 
> You said something about a contract you had with Pete? Could this be added to your post with the exception of names, numbers etc? Are you 21 and not in college and living on your own? How well do you know Pete? Is he a long time biz man and what does he do in the summer months?
> 
> I'm not just trying to be nosy, I like the $65.00ph but you have to do it right. Even tho we get a little out of line and disagree with each other it still boils down to helping you. We won't blow it up again. Just answer a few ?'s that we ask. No long threads right to the point. Thumbs Up


I am not 21... im 18... i still live with mom and dad. I don't know Pete that well, but I'm a pretty good judge of character, and he seems alright. He is the owner of a fairly large local company, that installs doors. I guess I could take pictures of the contract, is that rude? Because people could copy without paying


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Contracts are a dime a doz.

Just cut sone strips of paper and cover up your names ie personal info .


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

SnoFarmer said:


> Contracts are a dime a doz.
> 
> Just cut sone strips of paper and cover up your names ie personal info .


I just printed out another copy, ill upload it later tonight.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Collision said:


> I am not 21... im 18... i still live with mom and dad. I don't know Pete that well, but I'm a pretty good judge of character, and he seems alright. He is the owner of a fairly large local company, that installs doors. I guess I could take pictures of the contract, is that rude? Because people could copy without paying


No this is not rude, Guys share there contracts all the time. Don't show any names, ph#'s Nothing that could tie Pete or yourself just the contract. You got a possible problem with your age. Don't worry let us see the contract then we can address that.


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## Collision (Jun 16, 2016)

Photobucket is down right now, ill upload them when it works again.


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## UltraLwn&Lndscp (Oct 20, 2013)

This read was CLASSIC! Great 40 minutes of learning. Thanks to all involved and high fives all around!


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