# My Version of Dog's Ballast Retainer



## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

Since I do not have the tools or skills to work with rebar, I used wood. I built this in the fall and so far it has been working well. 
I was after ballast not counterweight, so I built this with the weight concentrating over the wheels rather than behind the axle. I have since added turn buckles from the wood to the bed tie-downs to make sure they stay put. Each side has three 70# bags of tube sand. 
I will likely modify it slightly next year, extending the length to allow one more tube further towards the rear. The current design also goes into the bed area a little more than it needs to, so I may adjust that dimension as well. 
All in all I'm very happy with the functionality of it and how it keeps the rest of the bed open and usable. Previous years I would strap a pallet of brick or salt down, rendering the bed unusable for the season.

Thanks to Dog for the inspiration!


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

Cool. Quick, easy and can be removed in a flash if need be.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

where do you get tube sand? tube steak sounds better lol


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

Believe it or not, that was the hardest part, finding the tube sand. I could find the empty bags no problem, but finding the filled bags was a bit tougher. Got them at a local Ace Hardware that also has a bulk material yard.

http://www.sakrete.com/products/detail.cfm/prod_alias/Tube-Sand


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

BC Handyman;1948828 said:


> where do you get tube sand? tube steak sounds better lol


I knew you Canadians were a little funny.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

k1768;1948536 said:


> Since I do not have the tools or skills to work with rebar, I used wood.
> 
> Thanks to Dog for the inspiration!




Thanks for the compliment. I love mine. Im so glad i made them. Theyve been perdect sice install. The bags freeze and cant be taken out, but thats fine by me. Spring will be here soon enough

Maybe ill make you a set in the summer....if you pay me, that is.... :laughing:



BC Handyman;1948828 said:


> where do you get tube sand? tube steak sounds better lol


You like tube steak. ? Really. ? ? ?

I had no idea you flew that way....and i dont want to know any details...thanks

Glad we got that cleared up....



grandview;1948853 said:


> I knew you Canadians were a little funny.


Go figure... Its always the fat chicks and gay dudes i attract...why cant it be smoking hot women ???? I think its time to jump off a high bridge.... Good bye cruel world!...

Aaaahhhhhhhhhhh..........(splat)


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

Dogplow Dodge;1948918 said:


> Maybe ill make you a set in the summer....if you pay me, that is.... :laughing


Thanks for the offer, but I also prefer how my design does not require any holes to be drilled into my (currently) 6 month old truck.

That's not to say that I hadn't considered asking if you were interested in making/selling me a set.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

k1768;1948947 said:


> Thanks for the offer, but I also prefer how my design does not require any holes to be drilled into my (currently) 6 month old truck.
> 
> That's not to say that I hadn't considered asking if you were interested in making/selling me a set.


I didn't drill any holes except for the rear flange by the tailgate. I used existing holes and bolted them in place. Keep that in mind for any future redesigning, or hiring some schmuck to make you a set...


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Dogplow Dodge;1948918 said:


> Thanks for the compliment. I love mine. Im so glad i made them. Theyve been perdect sice install. The bags freeze and cant be taken out, but thats fine by me. Spring will be here soon enough
> 
> Maybe ill make you a set in the summer....if you pay me, that is.... :laughing:
> 
> ...


That's because you drive a Dodge ,like gp and get stuck with guys like Randy pushing hot dogs.


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## Plow_king (Nov 2, 2006)

I actually just saw tube sand at Lowe's and was thinking hmm that would make great ballast.


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

When I was looking for it both Home Depot and Blowes did not show any at stores near me. Closest one I found at the time was NE Phila. No way I was going there.


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## icebreaker (Aug 25, 2008)

Plow_king;1949078 said:


> I actually just saw tube sand at Lowe's and was thinking hmm that would make great ballast.


Don't bother with tube sand bags are junk and fall apart easy. Buy their play sand its white sand bags are plastic but mine have lasted 4 yrs , have them in all my trucks


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

k1768;1948536 said:


> Since I do not have the tools or skills to work with rebar, I used wood. I built this in the fall and so far it has been working well.
> I was after ballast not counterweight, so I built this with the weight concentrating over the wheels rather than behind the axle. I have since added turn buckles from the wood to the bed tie-downs to make sure they stay put. Each side has three 70# bags of tube sand.
> I will likely modify it slightly next year, extending the length to allow one more tube further towards the rear. The current design also goes into the bed area a little more than it needs to, so I may adjust that dimension as well.
> All in all I'm very happy with the functionality of it and how it keeps the rest of the bed open and usable. Previous years I would strap a pallet of brick or salt down, rendering the bed unusable for the season.
> ...


Nice work but isn't ballast supposed to be behind the axle and not on top of it? I use bags of gravel for ballast, this way at the end of the season I just spreader in my gravel lot.


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

My understanding of the physics involved:
"Ballast" puts weight over the axle which increases traction. 
"Counterweight" turns the rear axle into a fulcrum shifting weight from the front axle to the rear. 
While this will also aid in traction, my truck/plow combination (as per BOSS) does not "require" counterweight. Taking too much weight off of the front axle can actually be detrimental because you are taking traction away from the steering wheels. 

For the above reasons, I have chosen to add ballast, rather than counterweight. I am well aware that this topic is as argumentative as chain lift vs direct, plow fluid vs atf, edge trip vs full trip, plowing with a half ton, and many other hotly debated topics. I have no desire to add fuel to any fire; I simply wanted to show how I took what I thought was a good design and tweaked it to match my abilities and needs.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

k1768;1949391 said:


> My understanding of the physics involved:
> "Ballast" puts weight over the axle which increases traction.
> "Counterweight" turns the rear axle into a fulcrum shifting weight from the front axle to the rear.
> While this will also aid in traction, my truck/plow combination (as per BOSS) does not "require" counterweight. Taking too much weight off of the front axle can actually be detrimental because you are taking traction away from the steering wheels.
> ...


Not trying to argue. Ballast is by definition a counterweight. Ships use ballast to sit lower to counter a top heavy load. Sailing ship use ballast to counter the force of the wind. This way they don't just blow over. You can think of water line as the fulcrum point. Now the point of ballast in plow trucks is to counter the weight of the plow on the front axle. By adding weight over and forward of rear axle you are actually adding weight to the front axle. By all means do as you wish.. Thumbs Up

Now I have never read the install instructions for Boss but all others I have installed clearly state when ballast is required it is to be placed as far behind the rear axle as possible.

I haven't noticed all threads arguing about ballast vs counterweight maybe you can point me to a few of them. :salute:


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

Did not think you were trying to argue. I see this site as a good place to exchange ideas and I welcome opinions, otherwise I would not post.

I've positioned the bags to be as centered over the top of the axle as possible. There is some spill over to the front and rear. I do see your point that any to the front would add some to the front axle. This was why I mentioned I would likely tweak the design next year to extend further back.

I did not mean to imply that all threads discussing ballast/counterweight were argumentative, but I'm pretty sure there were a few.

Below is a screenshot from the BOSS selector website for my truck/plow configuration, which shows BOSS does not "require" the need for "ballast" to take weight off of the front axle.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

k1768;1949413 said:


> Did not think you were trying to argue. I see this site as a good place to exchange ideas and I welcome opinions, otherwise I would not post.
> 
> I've positioned the bags to be as centered over the top of the axle as possible. There is some spill over to the front and rear. I do see your point that any to the front would add some to the front axle. This was why I mentioned I would likely tweak the design next year to extend further back.
> 
> ...


Thumbs Up Agree if no ballast is required then put it where you want it. Maybe it should be called traction modifier instead of ballast. :laughing:


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

^ I see you got a new spoon.


It would be nice if some of the plow MFG's knew how to use a dictionary.
From a technical perspective, most would agree that when we say "ballast" we really mean counterweight.

I dont use ballast as my truck is not a boat or a hot air balloon.

How can i place it below the center of gravity.
hang it under the truck?

Ballest
1.
any dense heavy material, such as lead or iron pigs, used to stabilize a vessel, esp one that is not carrying cargo
2.
crushed rock, broken stone, etc, used for the foundation of a road or railway track
3.
coarse aggregate of sandy gravel, used in making concrete

A counter weight is a weight that is placed such as to have a balancing effect. 

coun·ter·weight
(koun′tər-wāt′)
n.
1. A weight used as a counterbalance.
2. A force or influence equally counteracting another.


and i believe this carcase is right next to.
what tires are best.
best plow. 
best truck.
best fluid.


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

kimber750;1949416 said:


> Maybe it should be called traction modifier instead of ballast. :laughing:


I can agree to that.


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

SnoFarmer;1949430 said:


> It would be nice if some of the plow MFG's knew how to use a dictionary.


I can certainly agree to that. Like calling a relay a solenoid.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

k1768;1949436 said:


> I can certainly agree to that. Like calling a relay a solenoid.


Now I love this argument. Thumbs Up


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

SnoFarmer;1949430 said:


> ^ I see you got a new spoon.
> 
> It would be nice if some of the plow MFG's knew how to use a dictionary.
> From a technical perspective, most would agree that when we say "ballast" we really mean counterweight.
> ...


I blame MJD for setting us loose on the forum. :laughing:


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Adding weight to the read of the truck, to me , isnt really a counterweight, or ballast. To me its a traction aid, as this idea of an actual counterweight is wrong. 

A counter weight would be if we were dealing with a two wheel vehicle that had one fulcrum point. Trucks, cars have no single fulcrum point as ther are 2 sets of contact points with both axles. 

I dont know about you guys, but i dont plow with my blade up in the air, which, "...might..." on a really good day, put a smidge of upwards pressure on my trucks frame using the front axle as a fulcrum. NOT !
its just not possible, unless again that 500 lbs is physically up in the air, using its gravity to uplift the other 3/4rts of the truck. 

Realty is my plow weighs about 500 lbs, and im positive from the front axle rearwards, the trucks body, fuel, axles, my fat ass are at least 6000 lbs more than that. To me the idea of the rear of the truck being lifted by a 500 or even a 1000 lb plow upwards at all, requiring a "counter weight " is ludicrous. Its simply not possible for 500 lbs to affect gravity on 6000 lbs on the other side of the front suspension fulcrum.

Why do we put weight back there ? The 480 lbs i have in sand bags push the suspension downward because the trucks mass isnt there to allow the suspension to function properly and it allows the tires to be pushed further down into the snow pack, grabbing the surface, increasing traction.

Thats my take on it....love it or leave it.....you bunch of crazy 
coconuts


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

so you have never seem a truck with the plow in the air.
with the front kissing the pavement and the rear way up in the air.

Then when the plow is lowered the front comes up and the rear goes down.


Now the Counterweight will add weight to the rear for a traction aid.

It's a fulcrum.
the front axle and the rear axle act as the forum the frame is the lever.

There is more to it.
Counterweight will add weight to the rear for a traction aid.
It also balances out your truck so when you press on the brakes all of the breaking force is distributed better.
you have better control over a balanced vehicle the vehicle as the rear doesn't slide around you. when you go into a corner .
Also it's for your safety and everyone around you.



:laughing::laughing:it's MJD's fault


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

SnoFarmer;1949531 said:


> so you have never seem a truck with the plow in the air.
> with the front kissing the pavement and the rear way up in the air.
> 
> Then when the plow is lowered the front comes up and the rear goes down.
> ...


Well, sure I have. That's like asking if I've ever seen a drug dealer on the corner, pushing his smack.... Just another tard making money....

They're driven by dumb dumb heads who do NOTHING to improve the support of the front suspension of the hulk of steel on their front bumper. You're not witnessing the rear of the truck up, then back down.... you're witnessing the compression of the front suspension, and it's release upon the blade being dropped to earth again.

I mean really...

are you going to tell me that trip blades save transmissions?

ATF can be used in plows ?

Your snow tire choice is the best ?

When you scratch your ass, your fingers smell ?

Really ? Who cares ?


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Dogplow Dodge;1949549 said:


> I mean really...
> 
> are you going to tell me that trip blades save transmissions?
> 
> ...


What size do you want your t-shirt?


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

k1768;1949413 said:


> Did not think you were trying to argue. I see this site as a good place to exchange ideas and I welcome opinions, otherwise I would not post.
> 
> I've positioned the bags to be as centered over the top of the axle as possible. There is some spill over to the front and rear. I do see your point that any to the front would add some to the front axle. This was why I mentioned I would likely tweak the design next year to extend further back.
> 
> ...


I don't know haw to a photo capture but Boss's site said to add 400# of ballast to my truck. I have 700# and my truck will still spin the tires in 2 wheel drive and I need to add something to capture my tubes because they want to slide forward.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Dogplow Dodge;1949549 said:


> Well, sure I have. That's like asking if I've ever seen a drug dealer on the corner, pushing his smack.... Just another tard making money....
> 
> They're driven by dumb dumb heads who do NOTHING to improve the support of the front suspension of the hulk of steel on their front bumper. You're not witnessing the rear of the truck up, then back down.... you're witnessing the compression of the front suspension, and it's release upon the blade being dropped to earth again.
> 
> ...


Really,
Take your truck (empty box)
Get your tape measure

Measure the front and the back.

Now go put on your plow and raise it up
Measure again.
The front went down and the rear went up.

Or again measure front and back.
And hitch up a toung heavy trailer. Or add your weight (at the talgate )
The rear goes down and the front goes up.

A fulcrum and lever.

the rest of your rant is an attempt to defer from the 
Calm discussion at hand.

So go order your shirt you earned it.

You have never set up a weight distributing hitch have you?

Ps I really don't care what ya do but innocent people use the roads too.
Set up your truck so it is safe.

Have fun..


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

Rick547;1949596 said:


> I don't know haw to a photo capture but Boss's site said to add 400# of ballast to my truck. I have 700# and my truck will still spin the tires in 2 wheel drive and I need to add something to capture my tubes because they want to slide forward.


Extra weight will not eliminate the need of 4wd. For me it reduces how often I need to use 4wd. It also helps keep the rear end where I want it particularly on wet and bumpy curves. 
As for keeping the weight wherever you want it, that was the whole original purpose of my post. A search of ballast will provide examples of what others have done.


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

k1768;1949655 said:


> Extra weight will not eliminate the need of 4wd. For me it reduces how often I need to use 4wd. It also helps keep the rear end where I want it particularly on wet and bumpy curves.
> As for keeping the weight wherever you want it, that was the whole original purpose of my post. A search of ballast will provide examples of what others have done.


I think I know what I want. It just getting the time to complete the project. Wife just had surgery and I'm playing nurse. 

Great ideas though. It gets one thinking.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

BC Handyman;1949568 said:


> What size do you want your t-shirt?


Extra large usually fits... Can i have mine with a dead Bird on the back ???

ThanksThumbs Up


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

SnoFarmer;1949600 said:


> Really,
> Take your truck (empty box)
> Get your tape measure
> 
> ...


Last word to you captain not so obvious..

My trucks front springs. Are not stock. Plow lifted on my brick doesnt drop the front of the truck but a millimeter. The affect is negligible. The rear doesnt move up, regardless of what the captain thinks. The angle of the frame might be slightly different, but you could only measure it with a dial gauge in thousandth of an inch. The rear of the truck doesnt magically move up as you describe...

I dont plow snow with the blade in the air, so other than the static weight of the truckside and the weight of the blade side leaning on the truck, not hardly any weight on the front end.

Keep your discussion real and out of imagination land, otherwise the writers from South Park will sue you for patent abuse

My shirt fits fine, thank you. My ultimate goal is to achieve a full wardrobe like the one you've accumulated here....

Happy trails captain...and enjoy the ride


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

grandview;1949068 said:


> That's because you drive a Dodge ,like gp and get stuck with guys like Randy pushing hot dogs.


Came across what appears to be a 2016 Ram in NoCo today and the drivers name was RandyThumbs Up


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

BUFF;1949752 said:


> Came across what appears to be a 2016 Ram in NoCo today and the drivers name was RandyThumbs Up


lol how did I know you would end up getting to see it

to the OP see what happens when you let a dog in? next thing you know there is a whole pack of em, all yipping & yelping & then someone throws hotdogs on floor too, next thing you know you'll be cleaning up a "mess" that was left


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

BC Handyman;1949765 said:


> lol how did I know you would end up getting to see it
> 
> to the OP see what happens when you let a dog in? next thing you know there is a whole pack of em, all yipping & yelping & then someone throws hotdogs on floor too, next thing you know you'll be cleaning up a "mess" that was left


It was 20miles away and couldn't pass up the opportunity, even snagged my boy from school an hour early....Thumbs Up


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

BC Handyman;1949765 said:


> lol how did I know you would end up getting to see it
> 
> to the OP see what happens when you let a dog in? next thing you know there is a whole pack of em, all yipping & yelping & then someone throws hotdogs on floor too, next thing you know you'll be cleaning up a "mess" that was left


Heck no, I'm not taking responsibility for any of this.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

k1768;1949788 said:


> Heck no, I'm not taking responsibility for any of this.


Wel, well, welll, mister...
You better keep,us updated on your design changes so we have something else to bicker about.....like the old ladies we all know and lovin...


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## JCByrd24 (Oct 19, 2005)

Dogplow Dodge;1949687 said:


> Last word to you captain not so obvious..
> 
> My trucks front springs. Are not stock. Plow lifted on my brick doesnt drop the front of the truck but a millimeter. The affect is negligible. The rear doesnt move up, regardless of what the captain thinks. The angle of the frame might be slightly different, but you could only measure it with a dial gauge in thousandth of an inch. The rear of the truck doesnt magically move up as you describe...


The fact that you've effectively removed the suspension by adding non-stock springs does not change the effect of the weight transfer that happens when the plow/headgear is on. The weight on your rear tires will be reduced and thus your traction as well. Your stiff springs will do nothing to help your traction either. Obviously you don't plow with the plow up and surely you do travel on public roads with you plow in the air, so you should take his advice or someday you may end up in a accident with him or me or someone else with half a clue and point out to our insurance company that you were improperly ballasted and you may be on the losing end of a big lawsuit. Also, your front end would thank you, but you obviously don't care about that because your big boy springs you put in aren't doing it any favors either.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

JCByrd24;1949880 said:


> The fact that you've effectively removed the suspension by adding non-stock springs does not change the effect of the weight transfer that happens when the plow/headgear is on. The weight on your rear tires will be reduced and thus your traction as well. Your stiff springs will do nothing to help your traction either. Obviously you don't plow with the plow up and surely you do travel on public roads with you plow in the air, so you should take his advice or someday you may end up in a accident with him or me or someone else with half a clue and point out to our insurance company that you were improperly ballasted and you may be on the losing end of a big lawsuit. Also, your front end would thank you, but you obviously don't care about that because your big boy springs you put in aren't doing it any favors either.


Did you not read the title of this thread?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

JCByrd24;1949880 said:


> The fact that you've effectively removed the suspension by adding non-stock springs does not change the effect of the weight transfer that happens when the plow/headgear is on. The weight on your rear tires will be reduced and thus your traction as well. Your stiff springs will do nothing to help your traction either. Obviously you don't plow with the plow up and surely you do travel on public roads with you plow in the air, so you should take his advice or someday you may end up in a accident with him or me or someone else with half a clue and point out to our insurance company that you were improperly ballasted and you may be on the losing end of a big lawsuit. Also, your front end would thank you, but you obviously don't care about that because your big boy springs you put in aren't doing it any favors either.


If the topic was launching cars off the line on the drag strip you would have valid points regarding heavy springs being a negative for traction and weight transfer. In the world of plowing snow with pickups it doesn't.
I see you drive a GM, there's multiple threads about guys cranking the T-Bars up a couple turns and running Timbers. This approach does have a negative affect on suspension components due the change in the A arm geometry and by reducing suspension travel. Running heavier rated leaf or coil springs is the best way to compensate for the adding weight of a plow and the load in the bed. Since the majority of the miles put on the truck with the plow hanging off the front is while driving from sight to sight maintaining suspension geometry and functionality is what's needed.

Lastly Dog and SF along with many of us banter back and forth with each other and it's in good fun.:waving:


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Dogplow Dodge;1949687 said:


> Last word to you captain not so obvious..
> 
> My trucks front springs. Are not stock. Plow lifted on my brick doesnt drop the front of the truck but a millimeter. The affect is negligible. The rear doesnt move up, regardless of what the captain thinks. The angle of the frame might be slightly different, but you could only measure it with a dial gauge in thousandth of an inch. The rear of the truck doesnt magically move up as you describe...
> 
> ...


captain obvious.:laughing:
boy. who told you that one Mr no originality.

so, when your not as right as you think you are, you resort to name calling to defer the attention away from yourself.

We all know your old truck is the BEST truck, it got stiff springs, that the laws of physics dont apply to it.

Sleep well, in fairy tail land.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

For the rest of us back on earth.


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## JCByrd24 (Oct 19, 2005)

Sorry if I'm interjecting facts into some friendly banter. I'm an engineer who's had too many PBR's tonight so you guys are going to have to deal with it. Plus there may be some people that may be reading not knowing the difference, and truly take away from this forum the idea that counterweight/ballast/whatever you want to call it is ludicrous. Certainly here in Maine there are plenty of idiots driving around with whatever truck and a v-plow on the front barely clearing the road with the plow/mount while the ass is up in the air. I see now that perhaps Dogplow was just having some fun in this thread and maybe I missed a previous thread...In any event, the OPs case is certainly rare of requiring 0 ballast from the plow vendor.

BUFF, I appreciate the politeness with which you tell me I'm wrong, and will try to return the favor. I think you have it almost entirely backwards with your comparison to the drag strip (a drag man would have to weigh in). With regard to weight transfer, springs don't change it statically (maybe a little on braking etc but we'll ignore that), so yes a plow is unloading the rear axle no matter what springs you have. This goes back to the whole lever and fulcrum discussion. There was actually a question of this nature on my P.E. exam much to my surprise. It may not look as silly with nice stiff spring, but some weight is still coming off the already light rear axle and should be countered with ballast. With regard to traction, stiff springs are almost always worse than soft ones on real roads (roads that aren't perfectly smooth). Even in a performance car too much stiffness is bad because the tires will bounce over road imperfections (leave contact with the road). On a plow truck there is almost no benefit with regard to traction of an overly stiff spring. Geometry, ride height, load handling, body roll, all yes springs will help when loaded (as you said by both plow AND weight in the bed), but not traction or weight transfer front to back are not impacted positively. Additionally, overly stiff springs impart more shock/impact load on the suspension and chassis parts because that load is not being absorbed by the spring. Take the most extreme example, where the spring is solid. The truck would rattle itself apart starting at the wheel bearings and working it's way up to ball joints, frame mounts, body mounts, etc.

With regard to my GM suspension, the timbrens and cranking the t-bars are actually both helpful because they are maintaining the geometry under the weight of the plow. I'm not talking about cranking the bars so it's sitting nice and tall in front and has no down travel. I'm talking about maintaining the stock ride height under the load of the plow so it doesn't bottom out, etc. There is no detriment to this aspect of the GM suspension because you are maintaining both the travel and the a-arm/steering angles. The only negative is the increased load from the plow itself.

I would agree with your statement on the maintenance of suspension geometry. Some trucks are notoriously bad at this under load. TTB F-250s come to mind. Most modern IFS GMs in my neck of the woods are also not properly adjusted/ballasted for the weight of the plow so I'm sure their alignment etc is all messed up. But, Dogplows 92 Cummins is probably not an offender in this area. The SFA has the distinct advantage of maintaining nearly all of it's geometry under load. Thus, the only advantage of stiff springs on the SFA is preventing un-sightly squat. This could be just as easily and more appropriately combated with healthly (very healthy on a Cummins equipped truck I'd guess) ballast/counterweight. The only reason not too put a ton of ballast behind the rear axle of a cummins based truck is physical space. On my RCSB half ton Chevy I can fit 6-700 lbs completely behind the rear axle. My truck sits nearly level, rides like a dream, and squats very little under my modest Meyer ST plow. I can also navigate public roads in 2wd most of the winter which means I'm not on the verge losing rear traction at any minute and ending up ass first in a snowbank. Truth be told, I'd like more, but I don't want to put it in front of the axle. The front axle is certainly being loaded by the plow, so adding additional load via weight in the bed ahead of the rear axle is not good in almost all instances on a 1/2 ton, and doesn't make much sense if it can be avoided.

Edit: Thank you snofarmer for the lovely pictures. Good luck explaining to these guys how the spring rate has no effect on the physics described by your pictures!

Good night all, sorry for the drunken (but accurate) engineer rant.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

BUFF;1949910 said:


> Lastly Dog and SF along with many of us banter back and forth with each other and it's in good fun.


ABSOLUTELY TRUE.....



SnoFarmer;1949949 said:


> captain obvious.:laughing:
> boy. who told you that one Mr no originality.
> 
> so, when your not as right as you think you are, you resort to name calling to defer the attention away from yourself.
> ...


  Oh, I sleep very well in my fairy tail land....of no originality (imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, btw), having the bestest truck with my stiffy springs, and laws don't pertain to me, as I'm from NJ and we don't need no stinking laws.......

Actually, I'm thinking on buying some land and starting some snow farming this summer. Think of how rich I'm gonna get, since no one else with farm land will be growing snow. I'll have the market cornered....



SnoFarmer;1949963 said:


> For the rest of us back on earth.


Earth, smerth.... I'm waiting for Robyn Williams to come down in his Egg to hook me up with Pam Dawber's younger sister. She's really hot !



JCByrd24;1949985 said:


> I'm an engineer who's had too many PBR's tonight so you guys are going to have to deal with it. I see now that perhaps Dogplow was just having some fun in this thread and maybe I missed a previous thread..
> With regard to weight transfer, springs don't change it statically (maybe a little on braking etc but we'll ignore that), so yes a plow is unloading the rear axle no matter what springs you have. This goes back to the whole lever and fulcrum discussion. There was actually a question of this nature on my P.E. exam much to my surprise. It may not look as silly with nice stiff spring, but some weight is still coming off the already light rear axle and should be countered with ballast. With regard to traction, stiff springs are almost always worse than soft ones on real roads (roads that aren't perfectly smooth). Even in a performance car too much stiffness is bad because the tires will bounce over road imperfections (leave contact with the road). On a plow truck there is almost no benefit with regard to traction of an overly stiff spring. Geometry, ride height, load handling, body roll, all yes springs will help when loaded (as you said by both plow AND weight in the bed), but not traction or weight transfer front to back are not impacted positively. Additionally, overly stiff springs impart more shock/impact load on the suspension and chassis parts because that load is not being absorbed by the spring.
> 
> But, Dogplows 92 Cummins is probably not an offender in this area. The SFA has the distinct advantage of maintaining nearly all of it's geometry under load. Thus, the only advantage of stiff springs on the SFA is preventing un-sightly squat. This could be just as easily and more appropriately combated with healthly (very healthy on a Cummins equipped truck I'd guess) ballast/counterweight. The only reason not too put a ton of ballast behind the rear axle of a cummins based truck is physical space.
> ...


I'm Converted.... You've made me see the light captain drunken engineer !!!

I know now that I must put some sort of weight in the bed of my truck, but for gods sake, I have no idea how I'm gonna do it !!!!

Oh, the things I'll have to do to figure out how to get some ballast / counterweight, tubesocks filled with sand in my bed of my truck.... Can anyone here help me ?????I'll be breaking out my slide rule, and calculus books this weekend to see what I can come up with....


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Hey wait a minute,

I can't be converted. I never believed in Satan to begin with... 


Whew ! Glad I got that out in the open 


I fixed it for ya !


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

ha ha


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Holy crap, my head is spinning.............might be the Nyquil though.

And now we have a certified professional engineer jumping in.

Next up: Albert Einstein.

Guess I better keep my thoughts of engineers to myself.



BUFF;1949774 said:


> It was 20miles away and couldn't pass up the opportunity, even snagged my boy from school an hour early....Thumbs Up


Did you explain the Randymobile story to him?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1950129 said:


> Did you explain the Randymobile story to him?


Yes I did, I told him going to see the Randymobile was a quest like searching for the Holy Grail. We decided the next stop would be the Castle Anthrax............


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

No fancy sand bags for me. Just two fish totes filled with salt and sand strapped tight against my tailgate. Works real good . Didnt have it engineered or anything. No fancy welding . Nice to have the sand for those icy drives.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF;1950133 said:


> Yes I did, I told him going to see the Randymobile was a quest like searching for the Holy Grail. We decided the next stop would be the Castle Anthrax............


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

quigleysiding;1950135 said:


> No fancy sand bags for me. Just two fish totes filled with salt and sand strapped tight against my tailgate. Works real good . Didnt have it engineered or anything. No fancy welding . Nice to have the sand for those icy drives.


But is it ballast or counterweight or traction whatever?


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1950147 said:


> But is it ballast or counterweight or traction whatever?


Not really sure. Have to ask the engineers. I know its traction when I shovel it under the tires


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

quigleysiding;1950153 said:


> Have to ask the engineers.


Awesome.....

When you do can you ask them why so much emphasis is being placed on "driving aound with the plow in the air", when the entire idea that was originally being discussed was how to make plowing snow (thats on the ground ) easier, and more efficient, by installing a heavy thing in the back of,the truck. ...??


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

^Actually the op didn't ask anything remotely like that.
I think he made a statement, not a question.

and he built just what he said he did, a ballest box.....

I dont know about you, but I dont take off my 1k V-plow, then *drive *to my next account and put on another plow.



k1768;1948536 said:


> Since I do not have the tools or skills to work with rebar, I used wood. I built this in the fall and so far it has been working well.
> I was after ballast not counterweight, so I built this with the weight concentrating over the wheels rather than behind the axle. I have since added turn buckles from the wood to the bed tie-downs to make sure they stay put. Each side has three 70# bags of tube sand.
> I will likely modify it slightly next year, extending the length to allow one more tube further towards the rear. The current design also goes into the bed area a little more than it needs to, so I may adjust that dimension as well.
> All in all I'm very happy with the functionality of it and how it keeps the rest of the bed open and usable. Previous years I would strap a pallet of brick or salt down, rendering the bed unusable for the season.
> ...


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

I thought the original idea being discussed (in this particular thread at least) was a method on how to keep said extra weight in a specific location?


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

k1768;1950168 said:


> I thought the original idea being discussed (in this particular thread at least) was a method on how to keep said extra weight in a specific location?


Duct tape. Thumbs Up


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1950129 said:


> Guess I better keep my thoughts of engineers to myself.


:whistling:.......:whistling:


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Dogplow Dodge;1950162 said:


> Awesome.....
> 
> When you do can you ask them why so much emphasis is being placed on "driving aound with the plow in the air", when the entire idea that was originally being discussed was how to make plowing snow (thats on the ground ) easier, and more efficient, by installing a heavy thing in the back of,the truck. ...??


I dont know about you but my truck plows better with weight in the back.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

k1768;1950168 said:


> I thought the original idea being discussed (in this particular thread at least) was a method on how to keep said extra weight in a specific location?


I thought it was how to prevent hot dogs from rolling around in the wienermobile.


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