# Exclusive liquids



## Broncslefty7

good morning, is anyone using a salt brine for post treatment after a storm to deal with hard packed or ice? i have seen tons of videos of people pretreating, and applying when there is a half inch of snow on ground but nothing of treating a plowed lot. any feed back would be great.


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## SnowMatt13

DLA, direct liquid applications can be used in certain situations for deicing operations but not for all. With straight brine it may become difficult as pavement temperatures drop. Plus remember a liquid is a solution that will dilute quicker and have a potential for refreeze. If you have the ability I'd DLA before salt after any event that had mid to upper 200 pavement yemps


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## SnowMatt13

DLA, direct liquid applications can be used in certain situations for deicing operations but not for all. With straight brine it may become difficult as pavement temperatures drop. Plus remember a liquid is a solution that will dilute quicker and have a potential for refreeze. If you have the ability I'd DLA before salt after any event that had mid to upper 20s pavement tempo and higher


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## Brian Young

Broncslefty7;2048714 said:


> good morning, is anyone using a salt brine for post treatment after a storm to deal with hard packed or ice? i have seen tons of videos of people pretreating, and applying when there is a half inch of snow on ground but nothing of treating a plowed lot. any feed back would be great.


We've been doing that for years. It works just takes a little longer and use a little more but it is effective. I've learned if you pre treat the high traffic areas it not only keeps scraping cleaner, you use a lot less post storm. We do a chain of convenience stores that get very heavy traffic and when we pre treat just the drive lanes the results are so much better even after multiple plows


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## Broncslefty7

Sounds Good, my primary summer work is pool service and construction, so my salt and calcium flake pricing is extremely low. i generally pay about $55.00 per ton of salt and $180.00 per ton of calcium flake. it seems like a much cheaper alternative.


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## Brian Young

I wouldn't worry, we were applying liquids in temps. in the negatives and it was still working just fine. Last year we had a very, very cold winter here in nwpa and we applied our liquid when it was -20 and it still worked, we had to put a bit more down (maybe like 30% more) but some of our lots were the only bare lots in the city.


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## fireside

Broncslefty7;2049219 said:


> Sounds Good, my primary summer work is pool service and construction, so my salt and calcium flake pricing is extremely low. i generally pay about $55.00 per ton of salt and $180.00 per ton of calcium flake. it seems like a much cheaper alternative.


Can you PMme with were you found salt for 55 a ton? That seems way below CT salt pricing I have seen. Even way below state bud pricing. T


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## Masssnowfighter

I agree with brian young. If you pretreat, then hard pack becomes a non issue. And it scrapes clean enough that you can use liquids to post treat. 
Just wondering how many hours before the storm starts do you guys go out to pre treat? I seem to have the best results when I put it down 6-8 hours before the storm starts as opposed to 1-2 hours before the storm starts.


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## SnowMatt13

You put down salt brine with pavement temperatures at -20???


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## jhall22guitar

Masssnowfighter;2050260 said:


> I agree with brian young. If you pretreat, then hard pack becomes a non issue. And it scrapes clean enough that you can use liquids to post treat.
> Just wondering how many hours before the storm starts do you guys go out to pre treat? I seem to have the best results when I put it down 6-8 hours before the storm starts as opposed to 1-2 hours before the storm starts.


Can someone tell this to the town next to my hometown? They pre-treat 24-36 hours before the storm, and then have the worst roads in the area! Sorry for de-rail.


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## SnowMatt13

I've anti-iced my roads DAYS before an event with good luck. Depends on what your using and if you put it down right.


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## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7;2048714 said:


> good morning, is anyone using a salt brine for post treatment after a storm to deal with hard packed or ice? i have seen tons of videos of people pretreating, and applying when there is a half inch of snow on ground but nothing of treating a plowed lot. any feed back would be great.


We got into liquids last year and were 95% just liquids though the whole winter. We did have some colder temps here in MD than the norm though, so that helped. This season we are trying to go 100% liquids and help other locals get into liquids as well. It all depends on temps, but if you pre-treat, plow, then post treat with a Brine/Calcium mix, it works pretty well in most cases. Here are some pics of just post treating after plowing last year with liquids only.


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## Broncslefty7

wow looks good thankyou for the visuals. can you do approximately the same amount of area with a liquid tank, for example. if i can salt 4 of my lots with 1 spreader full of salt, could i "liquify" those same 4 accounts with a liquid tank of like 300 gallons?


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## absolutely

Broncslefty7;2051231 said:


> wow looks good thankyou for the visuals. can you do approximately the same amount of area with a liquid tank, for example. if i can salt 4 of my lots with 1 spreader full of salt, could i "liquify" those same 4 accounts with a liquid tank of like 300 gallons?


We ran 26% well brine and we figured 1000 gallons was equal to 5000-6000# of rock salt. This was with post treating.


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## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7;2051231 said:


> wow looks good thankyou for the visuals. can you do approximately the same amount of area with a liquid tank, for example. if i can salt 4 of my lots with 1 spreader full of salt, could i "liquify" those same 4 accounts with a liquid tank of like 300 gallons?


What size spreader do you have? How much does it hold? Yes, you need to figure on a good average of 100g per acre(90/10 mix) sprayed for post treating, depending on how well you clean the lot with the plow.


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## absolutely

86 CJ;2051268 said:


> What size spreader do you have? How much does it hold? Yes, you need to figure on a good average of 100g per acre(90/10 mix) sprayed for post treating, depending on how well you clean the lot with the plow.


It was more like 150gal per acre. We have spreaders ranging from 1.5 - 6 yards. Our sprayer is 1000 gallons.


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## Broncslefty7

i have an f350 SRW with a blizzard ice chaser 1.8 yd sander.


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## terrapro

I have for the last quite a few years been exclusive only LCC, only cause my contracts won't pay enough for bulk which drives me crazy but it is what it is. Yes it works for pre treat, post treat, and to burn off a 1/4 or so. I have sprayed 10's of thousands of gallons.


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## Masssnowfighter

For me 1000 gallons of brine/magnesium was doing the equivalent of 5 tons of rock for pre-treating, and considering how effective it was for scraping the lot clean I went from putting down 16-20 tons post storm to just using 4 tons of rock plus 1000 gallons of liquid for post treating.


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## terrapro

I do have to say that one thing I absolutely love about liquid is the fact you can load a tank and leave it for the entire winter and it will never freeze...ever.


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## CELandscapes

I run liquids exclusively at a 80/20 brine magic mix. Averaging 10-15 gallons per acre post treat.


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## navyman

CELandscapes;2051623 said:


> I run liquids exclusively at a 80/20 brine magic mix. Averaging 10-15 gallons per acre post treat.


could you explain your mix? I am looking to add cal chlor. to my brine but can't quite fig. it out.


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## CELandscapes

navyman;2051877 said:


> could you explain your mix? I am looking to add cal chlor. to my brine but can't quite fig. it out.


It's 80% brine which is mixed at 23.3% and the magic additive is the remaining 20%. I buy it this way but can add more magic if necessary for stronger mix making it work faster if I need it to. But I haven't had to yet. It has a very good residual effect as well. Very rarely have to treat again for refreeze.


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## Mark Oomkes

CELandscapes;2051623 said:


> I run liquids exclusively at a 80/20 brine magic mix. Averaging 10-15 gallons per acre post treat.


Are you pretreating as well?

Have any pics of the lots after treatment?

20-30 pounds of salt per acre, plus some mag and carbs from the Magic are giving you bare pavement?

You'll forgive me for being a bit skeptical.

OP, I would NEVER rely on liquids exclusively for deicing.


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## CELandscapes

Mark Oomkes;2051916 said:


> Are you pretreating as well?
> 
> Have any pics of the lots after treatment?
> 
> 20-30 pounds of salt per acre, plus some mag and carbs from the Magic are giving you bare pavement?
> 
> You'll forgive me for being a bit skeptical.
> 
> OP, I would NEVER rely on liquids exclusively for deicing.


Yes, pre treating. I have pics can't seem to upload them from my phone I will this evening.


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## Mark Oomkes

What is your pretreatment rate?


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## CELandscapes

7-10 gallons an acre only spraying drive lanes and letting cars pull it into parking spots


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## Mark Oomkes

So you're saying that a total of 40# of salt per acre, along with some mag chloride and carbohydrates are providing the same results that most contractors are getting from 10x that amount of salt. At a minimum 10x.

Again, I'm just a bit skeptical. 

And fwiw,I've used Magic before and am fully aware of the claims made by the distributor and dealers.


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## Defcon 5

CELandscapes;2051894 said:


> It's 80% brine which is mixed at 23.3% and the magic additive is the remaining 20%. I buy it this way but can add more magic if necessary for stronger mix making it work faster if I need it to. But I haven't had to yet. It has a very good residual effect as well. Very rarely have to treat again for refreeze.


Really?????....That stuff is "Magic"


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## CELandscapes

Mark Oomkes;2052068 said:


> So you're saying that a total of 40# of salt per acre, along with some mag chloride and carbohydrates are providing the same results that most contractors are getting from 10x that amount of salt. At a minimum 10x.
> 
> Again, I'm just a bit skeptical.
> 
> And fwiw,I've used Magic before and am fully aware of the claims made by the distributor and dealers.


I was hesitant at first til I used it and had great results. I have a flow meter in line so those are the real numbers. I posted for the op to see how effective liquid can be.


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## Mark Oomkes

CELandscapes;2052096 said:


> I was hesitant at first til I used it and had great results. I have a flow meter in line so those are the real numbers. I posted for the op to see how effective liquid can be.


Everyone uses liquids to melt snow and ice.

Application type is the only difference.

You should be taking over the market if you are able to cut back on salt usage by 90% compared to every other contractor.


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## Broncslefty7

i think the real question is, what is your cost per gallon? 2 yards of salt in my sander costs $110.00 and i can sell it for close to 2k. whats the numbers on the liquids?


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## Mark Oomkes

Broncslefty7;2052178 said:


> i think the real question is, what is your cost per gallon? 2 yards of salt in my sander costs $110.00 and i can sell it for close to 2k. whats the numbers on the liquids?


Not necessarily, because if someone accepts this guy's assertions, they are going to be sadly disappointed when they have to return to treat the lot after getting their butt chewed by an unhappy customer.

I was going minimum of 400# per acre. Even that number is rather low in my experience. We average aboot 1,000#/acre over an entire season. Maybe 800, but in that range.

The assertion that Magic enhances the capabilities of sodium chloride SO greatly that one can use (at 400#/acre) 90% less sodium chloride (spiked with some mag chloride and DCS) is rather incredulous. I'm not sure if his flow meter is off or his measuring is off, but I just don't see this happening in the middle of January, little to no UV rays and 10° pavement temps. I don't even see it as an average. Even the guys oot West that generally have low moisture content snow, low humidities and tons of UV rays due to higher elevation and using straight mag chloride don't use this little bit of material.

I've never seen another Magic user make a claim this low before either. Who knows, maybe this guy has found a way to circumvent physics.

Wait, he did say something about drive lanes, so maybe he is not referring to actual acreage. Guess we'll have to wait for clarification.


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## BUFF

Mark Oomkes;2052226 said:


> Even the guys oot West that generally have low moisture content snow, low humidities and tons of UV rays due to higher elevation and using straight mag chloride don't use this little bit of material.


I haven't dove into liquids many because my Ice Slicer/ salt usage is very low. You're comments regarding dryer snow and UV oot west is on point (in the fall and spring our snow has more moisture in it). Our weather/temps fluctuate so much usage varies, yesterday it was 60* and I had aboot 5" of wet snow to plow this morning. I use 400# per acre for bidding purposes, this morning I used 25% of what I normally would have since the pavement temps were still up and the snow was melting off once cleared. Fast forward aboot 4hrs it's now 45*, the sun is blazing and roads/lots are dry.
I will say when it's cold (sub zero) my 400# per acre is ample providing the sun pops which it typically does.

I read about the amounts of deicing product guys use in the mid west and east coast and I'm blown away. I've seen post here saying use anywhere from 800-1200# per acre, do these guys have any idea what that does to ground water and the environment.


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## mowbetaplow

*How to charge?*

Am considering getting into liquids but haven't heard how to charge for it compared to solid products. Without giving away any company secrets, can any of you suggest a pricing schedule, i.e., how much to charge per gallon, per acre, or what? Difference between straight salt brine vs 90/10 salt/calcium mix? Difference in charge when pre-treating vs de-icing, or no difference?


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## Digger63

*how to charge*

charging for anti-icing in some ways is easier than figuring how much salt to use per storm. First consider how much sq footage you want to spray, a typical application rate can go from 30 - 40 gallons per lane mile ( 12 x 5280 ). If you can control your unit"s output on average start with that. once you have how many gallons you will use for the area, work in the price per gallon it costs. Now put in a truck rate per hour with the amount of time you feel it will take to get to the place, spray it , and return home. An example , after the math you need 200 gallons to anti - ice the area. It cost say $1.50 per gallon. A total of $300. for liquid. if it takes you 3 hours at $ 100 per hour for the truck and man then you would have a total $600. you can plug in different numbers but that's basically how i have done it for the last few years


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## Defcon 5

BUFF;2052263 said:


> I haven't dove into liquids many because my Ice Slicer/ salt usage is very low. You're comments regarding dryer snow and UV oot west is on point (in the fall and spring our snow has more moisture in it). Our weather/temps fluctuate so much usage varies, yesterday it was 60* and I had aboot 5" of wet snow to plow this morning. I use 400# per acre for bidding purposes, this morning I used 25% of what I normally would have since the pavement temps were still up and the snow was melting off once cleared. Fast forward aboot 4hrs it's now 45*, the sun is blazing and roads/lots are dry.
> I will say when it's cold (sub zero) my 400# per acre is ample providing the sun pops which it typically does.
> 
> I read about the amounts of deicing product guys use in the mid west and east coast and I'm blown away. I've seen post here saying use anywhere from 800-1200# per acre, do these guys have any idea what that does to ground water and the environment.


Buffy...It all goes back to people in these parts want wet pavement as soon as the snow stops....The clients and the general public in these parts need to adjust their/there expectations and sue happy ways before we start cutting back on the salt......


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## SnowMatt13

Everyone will be reducing when the EPA steps in....it's going to happen. Environmental impact is gaining attention. Mark is right, I would never rely on liquids 100 percent. I'm on the public side and there's no way. Liquids definitely have their place and everyone and their brother is blending or sells a blended product in many different percentages. I will tell anyone blending cal with brine....once you go over 25 percent cal, get ready for some mayo!


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## framer1901

86 CJ;2050760 said:


> We got into liquids last year and were 95% just liquids though the whole winter. We did have some colder temps here in MD than the norm though, so that helped. This season we are trying to go 100% liquids and help other locals get into liquids as well. It all depends on temps, but if you pre-treat, plow, then post treat with a Brine/Calcium mix, it works pretty well in most cases. Here are some pics of just post treating after plowing last year with liquids only.


Give just a bit of credit to the big orange ball in the sky, even at an air temp of 15 degrees, as close to black as that scraped down when plowed, it woulda looked real close to that without any treatment - look at the shaded areas.....

If you can see the stars at night when spreading whatever, you can generally dial it back more than just a bit.


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## BUFF

Defcon 5;2052371 said:


> Buffy...It all goes back to people in these parts want wet pavement as soon as the snow stops....The clients and the general public in these parts need to adjust their/there expectations and sue happy ways before we start cutting back on the salt......


Yes I would agree with that. People oot here are also more in tune with the weather too.

I should have mentioned in my previous post I plow in light industrial parks (2-2.5acres), churches (1-2acres) and a few resi's. I don't want the fun that comes with retail property's will never work retail property's.


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## Defcon 5

BUFF;2052464 said:


> Yes I would agree with that. People oot here are also more in tune with the weather too.
> 
> I should have mentioned in my previous post I plow in light industrial parks (2-2.5acres), churches (1-2acres) and a few resi's. I don't want the fun that comes with retail property's will never work retail property's.


I was out in Breckenridge a few years back for a wedding.....It snowed 15" and It was not that big of a deal.....15" here people just freak out


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## CELandscapes

The pics are of a pre treat and then plowed twice. It was not post treated this was an hour after the snow had ended.


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## CELandscapes

Mark Oomkes;2052226 said:


> Not necessarily, because if someone accepts this guy's assertions, they are going to be sadly disappointed when they have to return to treat the lot after getting their butt chewed by an unhappy customer.
> 
> i was offering my experience with straight liquid. It may not be the same for everyone. i also practiced during late summer with the spray setup on different lots to see how to use the slopes of the lot to my advantage and to see how much the vehicle traffic would carry it into parking spots. i also use differnt tips on the spray bar depending on what kind of treatment im going for or a mix of tips.
> 
> I was going minimum of 400# per acre. Even that number is rather low in my experience. We average aboot 1,000#/acre over an entire season. Maybe 800, but in that range.
> 
> The assertion that Magic enhances the capabilities of sodium chloride SO greatly that one can use (at 400#/acre) 90% less sodium chloride (spiked with some mag chloride and DCS) is rather incredulous. I'm not sure if his flow meter is off or his measuring is off, but I just don't see this happening in the middle of January, little to no UV rays and 10° pavement temps. I don't even see it as an average. Even the guys oot West that generally have low moisture content snow, low humidities and tons of UV rays due to higher elevation and using straight mag chloride don't use this little bit of material.
> 
> I've never seen another Magic user make a claim this low before either. Who knows, maybe this guy has found a way to circumvent physics.
> 
> Wait, he did say something about drive lanes, so maybe he is not referring to actual acreage. Guess we'll have to wait for clarification.


 i measure the usage two ways. 1. drive lanes total for all properties to find that acreage to see gallons used on pre treatments.. 2. total lot footage for post treatments gallons used.


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## Freshwater

CELandscapes;2052472 said:


> The pics are of a pre treat and then plowed twice. It was not post treated this was an hour after the snow had ended.


Very sunny that day.


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## BUFF

Freshwater;2052502 said:


> Very sunny that day.


That's the "Magic"......


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## CELandscapes

Freshwater;2052502 said:


> Very sunny that day.


Sunny and cold. Middle of January. Low pavement temps. Happy client...all that matters


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## chevyman51

I have seen the lots that CELandsapse is talking about he has some of the best looking lots around. He uses all liquids and has awesome results.


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## navyman

CELandscapes;2052513 said:


> Sunny and cold. Middle of January. Low pavement temps. Happy client...all that matters


I am with you, there are always skepts. and they will never get beyond their "stay the course" mentality. If it is working for you, that is all that matters. Make your customers happy. I am also a full landscape and lawncare company. It amazes me how antiquated some companies can be when it comes to technology upgrades. So if this is providing these results at the rates you say, you must have mastered it.


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## Defcon 5

chevyman51;2052549 said:


> I have seen the lots that CELandsapse is talking about he has some of the best looking lots around. He uses all liquids and has awesome results.


No one is saying his lots don't look good...But the usage claims are BS..


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## Defcon 5

navyman;2052708 said:


> I am with you, there are always skepts. and they will never get beyond their "stay the course" mentality. If it is working for you, that is all that matters. Make your customers happy. I am also a full landscape and lawncare company. It amazes me how antiquated some companies can be when it comes to technology upgrades. So if this is providing these results at the rates you say, you must have mastered it.


Navyman...How many square feet do you maintain???..When you get into the Millions we will have a discussion...Untill then..Close the port hole


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## Mark Oomkes

navyman;2052708 said:


> I am with you, there are always skepts. and they will never get beyond their "stay the course" mentality. If it is working for you, that is all that matters. Make your customers happy. I am also a full landscape and lawncare company. It amazes me how antiquated some companies can be when it comes to technology upgrades. So if this is providing these results at the rates you say, you must have mastered it.


#1 You don't know me.
#2 Unless you've read a lot of my posts, you don't know squat about me. 
#3 How long have you been in the snow and ice industry?
#4 How long have you been using liquid applications?


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## Mark Oomkes

BUFF;2052263 said:


> I haven't dove into liquids many because my Ice Slicer/ salt usage is very low. You're comments regarding dryer snow and UV oot west is on point (in the fall and spring our snow has more moisture in it). Our weather/temps fluctuate so much usage varies, yesterday it was 60* and I had aboot 5" of wet snow to plow this morning. I use 400# per acre for bidding purposes, this morning I used 25% of what I normally would have since the pavement temps were still up and the snow was melting off once cleared. Fast forward aboot 4hrs it's now 45*, the sun is blazing and roads/lots are dry.
> I will say when it's cold (sub zero) my 400# per acre is ample providing the sun pops which it typically does.
> 
> I read about the amounts of deicing product guys use in the mid west and east coast and I'm blown away. I've seen post here saying use anywhere from 800-1200# per acre, do these guys have any idea what that does to ground water and the environment.


800-1200# per acre is not really that far out there. Honestly, I've gone higher--much higher--when trying to keep bare pavement during lake effect periods. Remember, not only am I much lower (elevation) than you, we can go 3 weeks with little to no sun because of Lake Michigan. With basically no help from UV rays, we need higher rates to achieve bare pavement. Also, overall, our snow is higher moisture content, unless it is lake effect.

Having said that, we have adjusted our thought processes over the past couple years based on the colder temps and above average snows. There are times when bare pavement is neither achievable or reasonable. During those periods of constant lake effect and very cold temps, we either stop applying salt\liquids or apply a minimal amount to reduce hardpack from forming. When we do this, we wait until the lake effect stops and then start applying salt to get back to bare pavement. In the past, we would just apply at extremely heavy rates to keep it as bare as possible.

I've told this story before, but back in the early '00s (GV might remember the exact year) we officially received 59" of snow between Christmas and New Year's Day. It was similar to last November, the winds were out of the perfect direction so GR and Buffalo were getting hammered with lake effect. Our route on the west side of town received far more than the 59" (NWS station is at the airport, east side of town). I plowed and salted a small lot that usually took around 750-1,000# of salt. Because of what was occurring, I plowed it and dropped aboot a ton of salt on it. As I was finishing, another squall came through and within 10 minutes there was at least a half inch on the parking lot. Trying to maintain bare pavement in conditions like this is stupid and unreasonable.

As an aside, this is why I laugh every time someone suggests "plowing with the storm". Maybe for people with 2 hour routes, but even then, in certain lake effect or heavy snow\blizzard conditions, you can't maintain a 2" trigger.

During that week I referenced above, what we did and our customers were fine with was, plowed during the night, ate breakfast, went through everything a second time and went home, with the exception of a couple accounts. People knew what was happening, roads were crap and they accepted the conditions.

2 years ago, by the end of the season, we could leave an inch on parking lots and no one said a word. At the beginning of the year, they would have had a fit. But after nearly 120" of snow, temps below zero numerous times, they adjusted expectations and accepted the weather.

One other funny, had someone call and ask for a price for their driveway and said it needed to be done by 0330-0400. Never mind their road won't be plowed for a minimum of 8 hours after that.


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## CELandscapes

Defcon 5;2052719 said:


> No one is saying his lots don't look good...But the usage claims are BS..


You're right I pull all my numbers out of thin air. I have no idea what I'm doing I just flip the switch and drive in circles.


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## Defcon 5

CELandscapes;2052736 said:


> You're right I pull all my numbers out of thin air. I have no idea what I'm doing I just flip the switch and drive in circles.


Sounds like it...Glad you can admit that...


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes;2052725 said:


> As an aside, this is why I laugh every time someone suggests "plowing with the storm".


Have you tried pre-plowing.

A good trick is to have a end dump spread a couple of tone of salt about a foot thick all along the high-side of the lot, as the water leaches threw it, it makes brine that then runs across the lot.

You guys make it so complicated .


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## terrapro

CELandscapes;2051623 said:


> I run liquids exclusively at a 80/20 brine magic mix. Averaging 10-15 gallons per acre post treat.


That's insanely small usage. As I said I ran straight LCC for years which is top of the line for liquids and have never had that level of performance. I don't think I even have the ability to spray that little amount.


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## Mark Oomkes

terrapro;2052797 said:


> That's insanely small usage. As I said I ran straight LCC for years which is top of the line for liquids and have never had that level of performance. I don't think I even have the ability to spray that little amount.


Lowest I can go is 20 GPLM.


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer;2052795 said:


> Have you tried pre-plowing.
> 
> A good trick is to have a end dump spread a couple of tone of salt about a foot thick all along the high-side of the lot, as the water leaches threw it, it makes brine that then runs across the lot.
> 
> You guys make it so complicated .


Lol..........


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## CELandscapes

terrapro;2052797 said:


> That's insanely small usage. As I said I ran straight LCC for years which is top of the line for liquids and have never had that level of performance. I don't think I even have the ability to spray that little amount.


I've figured out the difference. You're all in that state up north where it gets colder faster and stays colder longer with more snow. For the region I'm in I have had exceptional results.


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## Freshwater

Mark Oomkes;2052800 said:


> Lowest I can go is 20 GPLM.


Op what they're saying is they don't even have a setting on they're systems to spray that light.

Nobody's saying you won't use less than us in michigan. Just not that much less. Your rates just threw up a huge red flag to a lot of people who know a lot about this stuff. Keep an eye out just in case there wasn't an error in the calculations, it happens.

I thought the lots looked good.


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## Broncslefty7

i am going to test liquids on side walks this year and see how it goes. if all goes well i may try it next year.


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## Mark Oomkes

CELandscapes;2052804 said:


> I've figured out the difference. You're all in that state up north where it gets colder faster and stays colder longer with more snow. For the region I'm in I have had exceptional results.


I don't really have the time or desire to write another novel............errr go through the numbers.

If you have found a way to get those lots looking that good with a minimum of 90% less salt than anyone else....on a regular basis, you should turn your talents to nuclear fusion.

One other question for you, how do liquids work in freezing rain? Say a quarter to half inch of ice?


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## CELandscapes

Mark Oomkes;2052884 said:


> I don't really have the time or desire to write another novel............errr go through the numbers.
> 
> If you have found a way to get those lots looking that good with a minimum of 90% less salt than anyone else....on a regular basis, you should turn your talents to nuclear fusion.
> 
> One other question for you, how do liquids work in freezing rain? Say a quarter to half inch of ice?


We only had one event with freezing rain. I used 25 gallons per acres then being concerned about it diluting and didn't want a slip and fall


----------



## mowbetaplow

Thanks. Does anyone you know of charge by the gallon? Say, with a certain amount as a minimum?


----------



## 86 CJ

mowbetaplow;2052904 said:


> Thanks. Does anyone you know of charge by the gallon? Say, with a certain amount as a minimum?


We charge by the gallon applied, but it has to do with how much it cost to make it, or buy it, add your labor in, gas etc and come up with a happy number. We also charge less to a customer that gives us large business, than one that is just a small lot because of the amount of volume used. Sit down with a pen a pen and paper, write down what it would cost you to spread bagged.


----------



## terrapro

CELandscapes;2051623 said:


> I run liquids exclusively at a 80/20 brine magic mix. Averaging 10-15 gallons per acre post treat.





CELandscapes;2052893 said:


> We only had one event with freezing rain. I used 25 gallons per acres then being concerned about it diluting and didn't want a slip and fall


Either that stuff is magic or the stars aligned


----------



## 86 CJ

terrapro;2052955 said:


> Either that stuff is magic or the stars aligned


I agree from my experience with liquids. I think that's how much I waist per lot per storm  Even doing just high traffic areas and no parking spaces I just don,t see it, but if it works for him it's MAGIC


----------



## mowbetaplow

Thanks, 86CJ. In my market, I'm leaning toward charging by the gallon 'cuz my customer base (in this low-snowfall area) is resistant to what might be considered standard pricing in more northern climates.


----------



## terrapro

86 CJ;2052964 said:


> I agree from my experience with liquids. I think that's how much I waist per lot perstorm  Even doing just high traffic areas and no parking spaces I just don,t see it, but if it works for him it's MAGIC


Yeah if it works for him then great but it would NEVER work for me at the app rates he is talking about...especially in freezing rain liquids are almost unusable.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

CELandscapes;2052893 said:


> We only had one event with freezing rain. I used 25 gallons per acres then being concerned about it diluting and didn't want a slip and fall


How much accumulation did you end up with? What were the results on your accounts?


----------



## navyman

Defcon 5;2052721 said:


> Navyman...How many square feet do you maintain???..When you get into the Millions we will have a discussion...Untill then..Close the port hole


 Back at you Defcon, we are not playing Army we are de-icing. seems the only time you and some of the others say anything is when you want to assert how much you know and how much others don't know... I know your type. get back in your "foxhole".


----------



## CELandscapes

Mark Oomkes;2052970 said:


> How much accumulation did you end up with? What were the results on your accounts?


About a 1/4". It was still somewhat icy around entrances and super shaded corners. We threw treated salt in those areas


----------



## navyman

Mark Oomkes;2052723 said:


> #1 You don't know me.
> #2 Unless you've read a lot of my posts, you don't know squat about me.
> #3 How long have you been in the snow and ice industry?
> #4 How long have you been using liquid applications?


Oh you think it is all about "YOU"? I never mentioned "YOU" and all I "do" know about you is thru your post(or rather, replies) and the private messages I get from others telling about you...probably better leave it at that...I really hate to get personal. and as I said earlier " it seems some only pipe up to say how smart they are and how stupid others are...not good people skills. best regards; Navyman.


----------



## Defcon 5

navyman;2053123 said:


> Oh you think it is all about "YOU"? I never mentioned "YOU" and all I "do" know about you is thru your post(or rather, replies) and the private messages I get from others telling about you...probably better leave it at that...I really hate to get personal. and as I said earlier " it seems some only pipe up to say how smart they are and how stupid others are...not good people skills. best regards; Navyman.


Oh Boy......We have an expert here.....

Mark and myself are just pointing out the claims by this fella are unrealistic and will never happen in the real world at the rates he is claiming...But since you have all this knowledge....Please enlighten me.....30 years doing this im always willing to learn new tricks


----------



## CELandscapes

Defcon 5;2053132 said:


> Oh Boy......We have an expert here.....
> 
> Mark and myself are just pointing out the claims by this fella are unrealistic and will never happen in the real world at the rates he is claiming...But since you have all this knowledge....Please enlighten me.....30 years doing this im always willing to learn new tricks


pointing out and calling BS are two different things, if you were willing to learn new tricks i would think you be more interested in how im getting these results rather than trying to point out every way under the sun that i am "unrealistic".


----------



## Mark Oomkes

CELandscapes;2053153 said:


> pointing out and calling BS are two different things, if you were willing to learn new tricks i would think you be more interested in how im getting these results rather than trying to point out every way under the sun that i am "unrealistic".


I am curious as to how you have accomplished something that no one else has even claimed to accomplish. That's all.

Do I think something isn't right with your calculations? Yes, most definitely. And it has nothing to do with being further north, colder, more snow, etc. I simply find it unrealistic that you are the only one in this industry who has figured out a way to reduce salt usage by 90%, give or take.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

navyman;2053123 said:


> Oh you think it is all about "YOU"? I never mentioned "YOU" and all I "do" know about you is thru your post(or rather, replies) and the private messages I get from others telling about you...probably better leave it at that...I really hate to get personal. and as I said earlier " it seems some only pipe up to say how smart they are and how stupid others are...not good people skills. best regards; Navyman.


You didn't answer the questions.

People don't like me? I'll make an appointment with my therapist. I am more interested in the truth than people liking me.

I'm sure you've received dozens of PM's aboot me. Again, I'll see my therapist.

You know how smart I am? I'm so smart that I'm still in this stupid industry, green and white. Pretty stupid if you ask me.

So please answer my questions, then we can continue on this discussion.


----------



## navyman

Mark Oomkes;2053171 said:


> You didn't answer the questions.
> 
> People don't like me? I'll make an appointment with my therapist. I am more interested in the truth than people liking me.
> 
> I'm sure you've received dozens of PM's aboot me. Again, I'll see my therapist.
> 
> You know how smart I am? I'm so smart that I'm still in this stupid industry, green and white. Pretty stupid if you ask me.
> 
> So please answer my questions, then we can continue on this discussion.


Wow! where did I say that people didn't like you? you read so much into our posts that you can't get the real message or meaning...try another approach and get a new shrink, it "AIN'T" workin for ya!. Questions? where did I ask for your Questions? go find a pile of salt.


----------



## CELandscapes

Mark Oomkes;2053166 said:


> I am curious as to how you have accomplished something that no one else has even claimed to accomplish. That's all.
> 
> Do I think something isn't right with your calculations? Yes, most definitely. And it has nothing to do with being further north, colder, more snow, etc. I simply find it unrealistic that you are the only one in this industry who has figured out a way to reduce salt usage by 90%, give or take.


I reduced my personal usage by 75%. I'm going to measure the usage again this year once we get snow and I'll give an update at that point in time.


----------



## navyman

Defcon 5;2053132 said:


> Oh Boy......We have an expert here.....
> 
> Mark and myself are just pointing out the claims by this fella are unrealistic and will never happen in the real world at the rates he is claiming...But since you have all this knowledge....Please enlighten me.....30 years doing this im always willing to learn new tricks


I need to be shown where I claim to be an expert, as you claim to be.... doubt you can quote me saying I am an expert outside of researching for the past 2 years. As far as tricks? they are only performed in the circus and you probably know the "BIG TOP" better than anyone!..... Best Regards; Navyman


----------



## Mark Oomkes

navyman;2053183 said:


> Wow! where did I say that people didn't like you? you read so much into our posts that you can't get the real message or meaning...try another approach and get a new shrink, it "AIN'T" workin for ya!. Questions? where did I ask for your Questions? go find a pile of salt.


Never said you did, just trying to determine qualifications of those who I am dealing with.


----------



## terrapro

Defcon 5;2053132 said:


> Oh Boy......We have an expert here.....
> 
> Mark and myself are just pointing out the claims by this fella are unrealistic and will never happen in the real world at the rates he is claiming...But since you have all this knowledge....Please enlighten me.....30 years doing this im always willing to learn new tricks





CELandscapes;2053153 said:


> pointing out and calling BS are two different things, if you were willing to learn new tricks i would think you be more interested in how im getting these results rather than trying to point out every way under the sun that i am "unrealistic".


I am still trying to figure out how 10-15 gal is enough product to cover an acre even for a pretreat let alone be effective.

Chloride is chloride, it doesn't become sorcery once it is applied in liquid form.


----------



## navyman

Mark Oomkes;2053208 said:


> Never said you did, just trying to determine qualifications of those who I am dealing with.


I am not going to play TIT for TAT, try to be a little more helpful with your replies rather than talking down to posters, you may gain a few friends and save some money on shrinks.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

terrapro;2053216 said:


> I am still trying to figure out how 10-15 gal is enough product to cover an acre even for a pretreat let alone be effective.
> 
> Chloride is chloride, it doesn't become sorcery once it is applied in liquid form.


Cole, stop asking silly questions.


----------



## Jackmeup

Mark Oomkes;2053208 said:


> Never said you did, just trying to determine qualifications of those who I am dealing with.


I'm just trying to figure out where everyone thinks they are the expert here, who is to say that you aren't over using? Never heard anyone say they tried the rate he has and had the same results. All I hear is the negative Nancy in here putting everyone down, why don't you haters put your money where your mouth is and try his same product at his numbers then you can make claims about how it doesn't work. Until then quit putting people down and calling them liars. It is what it is, I'm sure no one here is a so called expert here


----------



## terrapro

Mark Oomkes;2053222 said:


> Cole, stop asking silly questions.


I know, I just don't want anyone looking for advice to get the wrong expectations. 
Markets and environments are different everywhere I think we all understand that but trust us with lots of experience that what is being said about 10-15gal of ANY liquid chloride product per acre is for the most part unrealistic.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Jackmeup;2053379 said:


> I'm just trying to figure out where everyone thinks they are the expert here, who is to say that you aren't over using? Never heard anyone say they tried the rate he has and had the same results. All I hear is the negative Nancy in here putting everyone down, why don't you haters put your money where your mouth is and try his same product at his numbers then you can make claims about how it doesn't work. Until then quit putting people down and calling them liars. It is what it is, I'm sure no one here is a so called expert here


Am I an expert? Not really, but I've used every liquid on the market at one time or another since '01 or '02.

So I do have experience backing me up. Maybe not expertise, but definitely experience.


----------



## terrapro

Jackmeup;2053379 said:


> I'm just trying to figure out where everyone thinks they are the expert here, who is to say that you aren't over using? Never heard anyone say they tried the rate he has and had the same results. All I hear is the negative Nancy in here putting everyone down, why don't you haters put your money where your mouth is and try his same product at his numbers then you can make claims about how it doesn't work. Until then quit putting people down and calling them liars. It is what it is, I'm sure no one here is a so called expert here


Well me knowing Mark O's and Defcon's experience in the real world as being associates of mine I can peg them as experts...you can even leave me out of it if you want even though I have sprayed 10's of thousands of gallons over almost a decade...

I would love to see you prove me wrong. I still can't see covering an acre with 10-15gal and it be useful.


----------



## Jackmeup

terrapro;2053403 said:


> Well me knowing Mark O's and Defcon's experience in the real world as being associates of mine I can peg them as experts...you can even leave me out of it if you want even though I have sprayed 10's of thousands of gallons over almost a decade...
> 
> I would love to see you prove me wrong. I still can't see covering an acre with 10-15gal and it be useful.


Why don't they come down to dayton ohio and get the product he is using and see how it works out for them? If they are so confident that is doesn't work then they would put their money where their mouth is. I would love to see pics of the their lots at their rates....I just don't get what anyone gets out of claiming someone's elses rate are BS. I have personally seen his lots and they are some of the best around..


----------



## CELandscapes

terrapro;2053403 said:


> Well me knowing Mark O's and Defcon's experience in the real world as being associates of mine I can peg them as experts...you can even leave me out of it if you want even though I have sprayed 10's of thousands of gallons over almost a decade...
> 
> I would love to see you prove me wrong. I still can't see covering an acre with 10-15gal and it be useful.


I'll take that bet.


----------



## terrapro

Jackmeup;2053423 said:


> Why don't they come down to dayton ohio and get the product he is using and see how it works out for them? If they are so confident that is doesn't work then they would put their money where their mouth is. I would love to see pics of the their lots at their rates....I just don't get what anyone gets out of claiming someone's elses rate are BS. I have personally seen his lots and they are some of the best around..


I have already put my money where my mouth is with my years of experience and my money buying liquid product.

Chloride is chloride, which is the main active ingredient in all of these liquid products. There is not a product on the market that does not have a chloride in it that works better whether it be sodium/mag/cal/pot. It could be a blend of this chloride or that beet juice and that whatever but still chloride is the main active ingredient that gets the job done. 
Calcium chloride which is what I spray last I had known had the highest % at around 32% before falling out of suspension which means you get the highest chloride content. It also has the lowest freeze temps! It's the good stuff. I would still never apply at 10-15gal per acre and expect anything unless it was absolute perfect conditions and I might not have even applied anyway.


----------



## superdutypsd

Maybe hes using a hand held garden pump sprayer, and thats how were suppose to achieve those rates :laughing:


----------



## CELandscapes

superdutypsd;2053494 said:


> Maybe hes using a hand held garden pump sprayer, and thats how were suppose to achieve those rates :laughing:


I use those for sidewalks. Guess again...though it comes out of the truck sprayer about the same rate


----------



## campbell79

I work for CElandscapes last year I use that stuff and it interesting how well it work for so little you have to put down I can't wait for it snow so I can introduce this product to the company I'm with now


----------



## terrapro

Jackmeup;2053423 said:


> Why don't they come down to dayton ohio and get the product he is using and see how it works out for them? If they are so confident that is doesn't work then they would put their money where their mouth is. I would love to see pics of the their lots at their rates....I just don't get what anyone gets out of claiming someone's elses rate are BS. I have personally seen his lots and they are some of the best around..





CELandscapes;2053508 said:


> I use those for sidewalks. Guess again...though it comes out of the truck sprayer about the same rate





campbell79;2053517 said:


> I work for CElandscapes last year I use that stuff and it interesting how well it work for so little you have to put down I can't wait for it snow so I can introduce this product to the company I'm with now


Ohhh ok I see whats going on now.....
How about the MSDS sheet on this super product?


----------



## 1olddogtwo

I dont have a dog in the fight here but I'm assuming this product would have to be atomized to the point of super tiny droplets just to cover that much SQFT, right?

I've never used it, so forgive my ignorance. I just trying to picture enough liquid to cover 40K+feet.


----------



## superdutypsd

1olddogtwo;2053523 said:


> I dont dog have in the fight here but I'm assuming this product would have to be atomized to the point of super tiny droplets just to cover that much SQFT, right?
> 
> I've never used it, so forgive my ignorance. I just trying to picture enough liquid to cover 40K+feet.


Come on you compress it into a gas, and spray it out of an airsole can, like when were in the truck to long and need to spray frebreeze


----------



## 1olddogtwo

OK, who's good with math here?

3465 cubic inches (15gals) to cover 43,500 sqft?

It's late for the old dog, going to bed.


----------



## CELandscapes

1olddogtwo;2053523 said:


> I dont have a dog in the fight here but I'm assuming this product would have to be atomized to the point of super tiny droplets just to cover that much SQFT, right?
> 
> I've never used it, so forgive my ignorance. I just trying to picture enough liquid to cover 40K+feet.


Right I'm running a fan tip so it's like a light mist covering the ground blanket type effect.


----------



## 1olddogtwo

CELandscapes;2053537 said:


> Right I'm running a fan tip so it's like a light mist covering the ground blanket type effect.


I am more intrigued than anything. Im personally a little to old school when it comes to deiceing.


----------



## BUFF

CELandscapes;2053537 said:


> Right I'm running a fan tip so it's like a light mist covering the ground blanket type effect.


Have you had wind drift issues, when I hear light mist any air turbulence carry's the spray.


----------



## CELandscapes

BUFF;2053560 said:


> Have you had wind drift issues, when I hear light mist any air turbulence carry's the spray.


No I haven't, the tips are 18" off the ground and its pumping just enough pressure to push it straight down. I imagine the truck helps block the wind.


----------



## CELandscapes

terrapro;2053520 said:


> Ohhh ok I see whats going on now.....
> How about the MSDS sheet on this super product?


http://ibgmagic.com/download/IBG1-treated-salt-MSDS2012.pdf


----------



## Broncslefty7

no way ibg magic does that. ive seen the videos and the demos. IBG magic claims them selves you need more coverage than that.


----------



## CELandscapes

Broncslefty7;2053627 said:


> no way ibg magic does that. ive seen the videos and the demos. IBG magic claims them selves you need more coverage than that.


So you've watched videos and demos but never had any experience with it?


----------



## CELandscapes

BUFF;2053560 said:


> Have you had wind drift issues, when I hear light mist any air turbulence carry's the spray.


Maybe light mist wasn't a good description. It comes out with the same pressure as a pull behind fert sprayer.


----------



## superdutypsd

You have LSS that claims you can spread one gallon at 1000sq but then States you can cover an acer with 20 gallons which contradicts it self, with LSS stating its 28-32% CaCI2, sure anyone can treat an acre with would it be acceptable for both you and the client in doing its job highly doubt it and that goes for all liquids trying to say 20gal per acre, you would need to be more around 45-50 gallon on low end 75 gallons average at a 90/10 mix


----------



## BUFF

CELandscapes;2053572 said:


> No I haven't, the tips are 18" off the ground and its pumping just enough pressure to push it straight down. I imagine the truck helps block the wind.


At 18" from the ground what angle are the nozzles spraying, how many are you running to get full coverage and how wide is your boom.


----------



## superdutypsd

You got guys who have been in this game fot along time, and spraying liquids longer than some people been in bussiness, think the issue is dont want newbie to liquids getting mis informed and misslead, go out and thinking there applying right, and get there butt handed to them, possible sued, or bankrupt bc a bad application, i would take the exsperiance, and option of an old timer anyday of the week, opposed to any spec or sale rep, old timers learn thru trial and error in real world scenario, oppose to some lab or computer model, which computer models can have errors bc that model was made by some human, lol


----------



## CELandscapes

superdutypsd;2053690 said:


> You have LSS that claims you can spread one gallon at 1000sq but then States you can cover an acer with 20 gallons which contradicts it self, with LSS stating its 28-32% CaCI2, sure anyone can treat an acre with would it be acceptable for both you and the client in doing its job highly doubt it and that goes for all liquids trying to say 20gal per acre, you would need to be more around 45-50 gallon on low end 75 gallons average at a 90/10 mix


I'm not using 90/10 read the whole post.


----------



## CELandscapes

BUFF;2053696 said:


> At 18" from the ground what angle are the nozzles spraying, how many are you running to get full coverage and how wide is your boom.


They're at 90 degree to the pavement. 5 tips it's 6.5/7' not sure off the top of my head.


----------



## CELandscapes

superdutypsd;2053697 said:


> You got guys who have been in this game fot along time, and spraying liquids longer than some people been in bussiness, think the issue is dont want newbie to liquids getting mis informed and misslead, go out and thinking there applying right, and get there butt handed to them, possible sued, or bankrupt bc a bad application, i would take the exsperiance, and option of an old timer anyday of the week, opposed to any spec or sale rep, old timers learn thru trial and error in real world scenario, oppose to some lab or computer model, which computer models can have errors bc that model was made by some human, lol


I don't know where you got that I used lab or computer models. I spent time and research before I even got a liquid setup. I have my own lots to play on and see what works and what doesn't. I never said my way would work for everyone. I wasnt trying to mis inform anyone. This whole thread has become gang up on one person and discredit him. It's supposed to be where people can share their experiences and learn from each other. But certain ones are concerned only with trolling and adding in their criticism and bashing people instead of helping each other learn.


----------



## superdutypsd

CELandscapes;2053705 said:


> I'm not using 90/10 read the whole post.


Iv been following along not saying you are using, 90/10, im am say usually at a 90/10 mix 75 gallon an acre


----------



## SnoFarmer

CELandscapes;2053713 said:


> It's supposed to be where people can share their experiences and learn from each other. But certain ones are concerned only with trolling and adding in their criticism and bashing people instead of helping each other learn.


It Is , it is also used to set the record straight.


----------



## superdutypsd

CELandscapes;2053713 said:


> I don't know where you got that I used lab or computer models. I spent time and research before I even got a liquid setup. I have my own lots to play on and see what works and what doesn't. I never said my way would work for everyone. I wasnt trying to mis inform anyone. This whole thread has become gang up on one person and discredit him. It's supposed to be where people can share their experiences and learn from each other. But certain ones are concerned only with trolling and adding in their criticism and bashing people instead of helping each other learn.


 Again im am not saying your using computer models or lab, just sharing my exsperiance and options


----------



## Broncslefty7

so back on topic. what are you guys finding as your cost per gallon on a mix with salt and calcium?


----------



## JD Dave

How many acres do you maintain in the winter CEL?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Fwiw, we use 13 gallons/acre of water and herbicide out of our ZSpray. Lavender nozzles.


----------



## JD Dave

We spray 1000's of acres every year at 10-15 gallons/acre every year with great results.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

JD Dave;2053922 said:


> We spray 1000's of acres every year at 10-15 gallons/acre every year with great results.


Lmao, you're on a roll dave.


----------



## CELandscapes

Mark Oomkes;2053962 said:


> Lmao, you're on a roll dave.


Just out of curiosity, why did you tell the OP to never rely solely on liquid for de icing


----------



## CELandscapes

JD Dave;2053793 said:


> How many acres do you maintain in the winter CEL?


15/20 quality not quantity


----------



## terrapro

CELandscapes;2054036 said:


> 15/20 quality not quantity


That is not the way it works and that is what we are trying to tell you. Every gallon can only contain so much chlorides which is what does the actual work. It's not magic...or rocket science.

Go here and read, all of it.
http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=128523&highlight=gal&page=96


----------



## Mark Oomkes

CELandscapes;2054033 said:


> Just out of curiosity, why did you tell the OP to never rely solely on liquid for de icing


I'm trying to figure out a way to answer this and not come off like an ass that most people think I am.

#1 You already answered it specifically in this thread. 
#2 If you have to ask, you really aren't well versed in liquid applications.


----------



## CELandscapes

terrapro;2054248 said:


> That is not the way it works and that is what we are trying to tell you. Every gallon can only contain so much chlorides which is what does the actual work. It's not magic...or rocket science.
> 
> Go here and read, all of it.
> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=128523&highlight=gal&page=96


He asked me how many acres I maintain. Not how many gallons I use.


----------



## 86 CJ

We pulled the trigger and went and bought 250g of Magic O and some bags of IBG to test out ourselves. We have spoke with many who use it and heard NOTHING but great things about the product, so had to try it out. We will be mixing it 20/80 with our Brine, spraying some bulk salt with concentrate and trying it out pre and post treating on pavement and sidewalks....Can't wait.

All we need now is some SNOW


----------



## CELandscapes

86 CJ;2094730 said:


> We pulled the trigger and went and bought 250g of Magic O and some bags of IBG to test out ourselves. We have spoke with many who use it and heard NOTHING but great things about the product, so had to try it out. We will be mixing it 20/80 with our Brine, spraying some bulk salt with concentrate and trying it out pre and post treating on pavement and sidewalks....Can't wait.
> 
> All we need now is some SNOW


I sprayed this morning temps were at -3 and it was slow starting but still burned off the hard pack and ice.


----------



## Broncslefty7

Good luck with that this year, all we have gotten is about an inch of slush.................


----------



## SaratogaSnowPro

Snow is coming guys!!!! Good luck!


----------



## 86 CJ

Well guys, we tested the Cool Aid and ended up liking it so much that we are going to get more this week. We mixed in 20% Magic with our Brine and pre-treated a couple lots and also used it after the storm for De-Icing in different situations. We were very impressed with it and it left are sites very clean compared to others. I also liked the bagged IBG product over Mag and other blends because it worked just as good, but also left some residual around that helped when re-freezing tried to occur days later and I had way less treating to go back and do.

As far as using 15-20g per acre, we were over that, but did not dial in our sprayer, just trying to get it down and see how it works. I can say that we used the stuff on sidewalks and it was unreal how clear they were in the end from pre-and some post treating. Customers were very happy. here are a couple pics of it working in action.

Below right here we actually tried burning though 1" plus of snow with IBG Blend and it was working well, even see where our nozzles hit the sidewalk and blew right through the snow on it, lol


----------



## 86 CJ

More Pics Here


----------



## bsrservices1

What size nozzles are you guys using?


----------



## terrapro

Nice rig, I like the setup with the nozzles on the side.
I loved my 1ton dually when I had it rigged with a snowex 1075 running bulk and 325gal LCC sprayer in the bed, it was a badass setup. Burn through whatever was thrown at me

What backpack sprayers are those in the back of the truck and do you like them? I've been using 2.5gal sprayers and keeping 5gal pals for refill and it's a slow process...


----------



## 86 CJ

86 CJ;2094730 said:


> We pulled the trigger and went and bought 250g of Magic O and some bags of IBG to test out ourselves. We have spoke with many who use it and heard NOTHING but great things about the product, so had to try it out. We will be mixing it 20/80 with our Brine, spraying some bulk salt with concentrate and trying it out pre and post treating on pavement and sidewalks....Can't wait.
> 
> All we need now is some SNOW


I wanted to correct myself with what Product we bought and tried out. It was not MAGIC O, its was IBG MAGIC Liquids(http://ibgmagic.com/ibg-magic-liquid/) we mixed in with our Brine. Magic O is the old solution. Anyways the stuff worked better before and after everything else we have used because of the residual, really stayed around on the lots/sidewalks for a while. We are now going to be running it through and treating our bulk salt with it when we can't use liquids.


----------



## VS Innovation

Hey guys, 
There is a lot of good information in this thread.
I'd like to give you some background on our company. We have been using liquid now for over four years pre and post treat. We got sick and tired of our spreaders never working and our salt piles freezing. I think we can all say that we have stood in the back of a V box shoveling salt before and it's no fun. We made the choice to go to liquid and have never looked back. 
Our company services roughly 18-20 acres per storm, most are contracts with very strict de-icing stipulations. Most customers expect bare pavement right behind our plow. With brine we have been able to give these results to them and almost instantaneously. We are located in south central Minnesota so the temps do tend to be very cold from time to time. 
Our company has built every sprayer and brine maker we use and now we manufacture these sprayers. All of our units are controlled by a gps monitor which has really helped save us money due applying to much brine. 
Please feel free to message me about any questions you have about the brining process. We have a very extensive knowledge about making and spraying brine, what conditions are favorable and what conditions are not, percentage of calcium chloride and so on. 
We would be more than happy to answer and of your questions. 
I will post a few pictures of our 2700 gallon sprayer tomorrow. I'm new to this and I haven't figured out how to post on my phone yet!


----------



## Broncslefty7

what i am trying to figure out is, i put 2 yards of salt into my spreader. i drive to my 4 accounts, and have a little bit left over. can you cover the same amount of space with liquid that you can with granular? and is it cheaper to spray liquid then spread granular?


----------



## Broncslefty7

also it seems like liquid is not a cure all, and that salt is still required even when mixing in Calcium.


----------



## terrapro

Broncslefty7;2115028 said:


> what i am trying to figure out is, i put 2 yards of salt into my spreader. i drive to my 4 accounts, and have a little bit left over. can you cover the same amount of space with liquid that you can with granular? and is it cheaper to spray liquid then spread granular?


Not really sure what you are saying here, only thing I can answer is sometimes it can be cheaper sometimes more expensive because it depends on your location and what product you are using.



Broncslefty7;2115029 said:


> also it seems like liquid is not a cure all, and that salt is still required even when mixing in Calcium.


Liquid is NOT a cure all it is just another tool in the tool.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Broncslefty7;2115028 said:


> what i am trying to figure out is, i put 2 yards of salt into my spreader. i drive to my 4 accounts, and have a little bit left over. can you cover the same amount of space with liquid that you can with granular? and is it cheaper to spray liquid then spread granular?


Sometimes, but overall.............NO.


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7;2115029 said:


> also it seems like liquid is not a cure all, and that salt is still required even when mixing in Calcium.[/QUOTE
> 
> All of our 3/4 ton plow trucks are equipped with 305 gallon low profile sprayers. They provide great ballast for us when plowing and allow for much better visibility than a v-box (can still see out the back window of the truck). They also dont leave a mess of salt in the back of our trucks that is impossible to wash out without first removing the v-box.
> 
> In most conditions we apply 75-100 gallons of brine mixed with 10 percent calcium chloride per acre. When temps drop below 5 degrees we bump the calcium chloride as high as 20%. With our 3/4 ton trucks we are able to treat 3 or more acres with 300 gallons. With our Isuzu cabover with the 500 gallon sprayer we can treat over 5 acres.
> 
> Two yards of salt like you are loading your spreader with weighs just over 4200 lbs, whereas 300 gallons of brine contains only 675 lbs of salt and 30 gallons of calcium chloride, with a total weight of just under 3000 lbs.
> 
> This is where the savings and efficiency comes in. We are able to treat the same area using 675 pounds of salt and 30 gallons of calcium chloride as a spreader containing 3000 lbs of salt being spread at a rate of 1000 pounds per acre.
> 
> With what we pay for our salt and calcium chloride (obviously this will vary by region and by volume purchased) our cost to de-ice 3 acres is roughly a third of our cost would be to spread salt. Not to mention we can now efficiently treat a fairly large amount of pavement with 3/4 ton trucks that really cannot safely/legally carry a v-box spreader capable of handling the same area. This allows these plow trucks to efficiently plow a commercial lot, and then treat it, preventing the need for our dump truck or hooklift truck to make a special trip across town just to de-ice.
> 
> You are correct in saying liquid is not ideal in all circumstances, however we have had no problem making it work for us in every situation. To us it just doesn't make sense to own both spraying and spreading equipment.. Its more to maintain, and a hassle to swap out units from the back of the trucks.
> There are times when we have needed to apply amounts up to 130 gallons an acre for melting off thick snow pack and in situations where the moisture content of the snow is very high and we just want to "burn it off" instead of plowing those 1/2 to 1 inch snowfalls.
> Even with this high application it is still cheaper for us to spray brine than to spread salt.
> 
> All of this being said, another benefit is that liquid is so much easier to monitor and regulate application rate with a flow meter, servo valve and controller. We never have any waste, because we don't over apply. And we have done this long enough where we know the conditions and don't under apply and have to re-treat later. With salt this can be more difficult. . Obviously there is a learning curve, it took us a couple years to get it perfect. But now that we have it down, we are as efficient as anyone out there. We can charge the same amount as the guys spreading salt, but without any waste, spillage or over-appliation, our margins better, even if you don't consider the cost savings of the product itself.
> 
> Furthermore, in temperatures above 25 degrees we don't even bother with the calcium chloride, 23.3% salt brine alone is adequate in these conditions at the same application rates discussed above. This saves even more money as 30 gallons of calcium chloride costs us more than the 275 gallons of brine we mix it with.
> 
> Alot of the local guys doubted us when we went to all liquid, we got made fun of by some, and even had one of our customers tell us that another contractor told them we don't know what we are doing and that liquid de-icing is not proven.. But no one is doubting now, and a few other local contractors have started getting into liquid as well due to the way our accounts looked compared to theirs, as well as the cost savings.
> 
> The other major benefit to our all liquid program is the accounts we have picked up due to how fast our lots melt off and how clean the lots look after we treat, compared to other lots where so many contractors over or under apply salt. We also had 2 customers comment last year about how much less they had to mop and clean their floors during the day following snow (commercial retail businesses) due to no salt or sand being tracked into the store.
> 
> If you have any other question or would like me to elaborate more on anything just let me know!


----------



## JD Dave

I'm asking myself why I bothered buying a new salt truck for this season.


----------



## CELandscapes

so far with the minimal snow we've had so far this winter all liquids have been working great. we are averaging between 10-18 gallons of 80/20 brine per acre.

with temps in the low teens this morning and negative wind chills i decided to try a mix of 90/10 and it worked great the .5-1" of snow we had was melting off as soon as it was sprayed. all lots were clean and clear 2-3 hrs after being treated.


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## Broncslefty7

ive read a lot about mixing liquid calcium in for a "hot mix". however i have 5 pallets of calcium flake that we use in the summer in pools, can that also be used? or does that cause a dilution issue?


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## Grassman09

JD Dave;2115090 said:


> I'm asking myself why I bothered buying a new salt truck for this season.


Cuz you need it for summer use on the farm.


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## Mark Oomkes

JD Dave;2115090 said:


> I'm asking myself why I bothered buying a new salt truck for this season.


Because you have money to burn?


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## JD Dave

Mark Oomkes;2115460 said:


> Because you have money to burn?


If I switched to liquids exclusively then I'd have money to burn.


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## Mark Oomkes

JD Dave;2115485 said:


> If I switched to liquids exclusively then I'd have money to burn.


Especially if you used Magic.


----------



## 86 CJ

VS Innovation;2115073 said:


> Broncslefty7;2115029 said:
> 
> 
> 
> also it seems like liquid is not a cure all, and that salt is still required even when mixing in Calcium.[/QUOTE
> 
> All of our 3/4 ton plow trucks are equipped with 305 gallon low profile sprayers. They provide great ballast for us when plowing and allow for much better visibility than a v-box (can still see out the back window of the truck). They also dont leave a mess of salt in the back of our trucks that is impossible to wash out without first removing the v-box.
> 
> In most conditions we apply 75-100 gallons of brine mixed with 10 percent calcium chloride per acre. When temps drop below 5 degrees we bump the calcium chloride as high as 20%. With our 3/4 ton trucks we are able to treat 3 or more acres with 300 gallons. With our Isuzu cabover with the 500 gallon sprayer we can treat over 5 acres.
> 
> Two yards of salt like you are loading your spreader with weighs just over 4200 lbs, whereas 300 gallons of brine contains only 675 lbs of salt and 30 gallons of calcium chloride, with a total weight of just under 3000 lbs.
> 
> This is where the savings and efficiency comes in. We are able to treat the same area using 675 pounds of salt and 30 gallons of calcium chloride as a spreader containing 3000 lbs of salt being spread at a rate of 1000 pounds per acre.
> 
> With what we pay for our salt and calcium chloride (obviously this will vary by region and by volume purchased) our cost to de-ice 3 acres is roughly a third of our cost would be to spread salt. Not to mention we can now efficiently treat a fairly large amount of pavement with 3/4 ton trucks that really cannot safely/legally carry a v-box spreader capable of handling the same area. This allows these plow trucks to efficiently plow a commercial lot, and then treat it, preventing the need for our dump truck or hooklift truck to make a special trip across town just to de-ice.
> 
> You are correct in saying liquid is not ideal in all circumstances, however we have had no problem making it work for us in every situation. To us it just doesn't make sense to own both spraying and spreading equipment.. Its more to maintain, and a hassle to swap out units from the back of the trucks.
> There are times when we have needed to apply amounts up to 130 gallons an acre for melting off thick snow pack and in situations where the moisture content of the snow is very high and we just want to "burn it off" instead of plowing those 1/2 to 1 inch snowfalls.
> Even with this high application it is still cheaper for us to spray brine than to spread salt.
> 
> All of this being said, another benefit is that liquid is so much easier to monitor and regulate application rate with a flow meter, servo valve and controller. We never have any waste, because we don't over apply. And we have done this long enough where we know the conditions and don't under apply and have to re-treat later. With salt this can be more difficult. . Obviously there is a learning curve, it took us a couple years to get it perfect. But now that we have it down, we are as efficient as anyone out there. We can charge the same amount as the guys spreading salt, but without any waste, spillage or over-appliation, our margins better, even if you don't consider the cost savings of the product itself.
> 
> Furthermore, in temperatures above 25 degrees we don't even bother with the calcium chloride, 23.3% salt brine alone is adequate in these conditions at the same application rates discussed above. This saves even more money as 30 gallons of calcium chloride costs us more than the 275 gallons of brine we mix it with.
> 
> Alot of the local guys doubted us when we went to all liquid, we got made fun of by some, and even had one of our customers tell us that another contractor told them we don't know what we are doing and that liquid de-icing is not proven.. But no one is doubting now, and a few other local contractors have started getting into liquid as well due to the way our accounts looked compared to theirs, as well as the cost savings.
> 
> The other major benefit to our all liquid program is the accounts we have picked up due to how fast our lots melt off and how clean the lots look after we treat, compared to other lots where so many contractors over or under apply salt. We also had 2 customers comment last year about how much less they had to mop and clean their floors during the day following snow (commercial retail businesses) due to no salt or sand being tracked into the store.
> 
> If you have any other question or would like me to elaborate more on anything just let me know!
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to have to agree with most of what you posted here with our experiences as well, we have been able to do the exact same Liquid Treating without dumping Rock salt in the last two seasons and have not used bulk spreader at all. There were some storms where we had to go heavy to get the job done though. We also have cleaner lots with Happy customers.
Click to expand...


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## 86 CJ

CELandscapes;2115119 said:


> so far with the minimal snow we've had so far this winter all liquids have been working great. we are averaging between 10-18 gallons of 80/20 brine per acre.
> 
> with temps in the low teens this morning and negative wind chills i decided to try a mix of 90/10 and it worked great the .5-1" of snow we had was melting off as soon as it was sprayed. all lots were clean and clear 2-3 hrs after being treated.


CEL

Are you using MAGIC, or the IBG Liquid product?


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## CELandscapes

86 CJ;2115697 said:


> CEL
> 
> Are you using MAGIC, or the IBG Liquid product
> 
> The liquid product 80%brine/20% liquid magic


----------



## 86 CJ

CELandscapes;2115715 said:


> 86 CJ;2115697 said:
> 
> 
> 
> CEL
> 
> Are you using MAGIC, or the IBG Liquid product
> 
> The liquid product 80%brine/20% liquid magic
> 
> 
> 
> Understand the mixture. I was just making sure we are using the same IBG Liquid Magic product(People get it confused with other products out there). We have been blending it 20% with our Brine in the past couple storms as well recently and are liking what we see. We are using quite a bit more than you per acre though, but are also running the Triple T Jet Nozzles we use with our 90/10 Calcium Brine. I think we are going to try a different type nozzle on our boom to get more broadcast effect with this and see if we can use less. What dealer are you buying from in your area?
Click to expand...


----------



## CELandscapes

86 CJ;2115746 said:


> CELandscapes;2115715 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Understand the mixture. I was just making sure we are using the same IBG Liquid Magic product(People get it confused with other products out there). We have been blending it 20% with our Brine in the past couple storms as well recently and are liking what we see. We are using quite a bit more than you per acre though, but are also running the Triple T Jet Nozzles we use with our 90/10 Calcium Brine. I think we are going to try a different type nozzle on our boom to get more broadcast effect with this and see if we can use less. What dealer are you buying from in your area?
> 
> 
> 
> We are buying it from ice b gone of Dayton. Running a fan tip nozzle most of the time. What height are your nozzles from the ground? I'm also only running three of the five nozzles, both outside ones and the one in the middle.
Click to expand...


----------



## 86 CJ

CELandscapes;2115755 said:


> 86 CJ;2115746 said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are buying it from ice b gone of Dayton. Running a fan tip nozzle most of the time. What height are your nozzles from the ground? I'm also only running three of the five nozzles, both outside ones and the one in the middle.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds good, can you post a pic of your boom and nozzles when you get a chance. We run our booms close to 20" from the ground.
Click to expand...


----------



## CELandscapes

86 CJ;2115760 said:


> CELandscapes;2115755 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds good, can you post a pic of your boom and nozzles when you get a chance. We run our booms close to 20" from the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to drop them down. IBG recommends running them 12-16" from the ground. Ive got mine set at 12.5" it makes a heck of a difference.
Click to expand...


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## VS Innovation

The first year we switched to liquid, we had our trucks equipped with fan tips. They did work, but not as well as we would have liked. We found the fan tips to work well for pre-treating, but lacked power during post treat applications. The pattern was obviously more like a field or yard sprayer which consistently covered the ground but had a hard time cutting through snow pack. At the end of our first season we removed the fan tips and put 1/2 inch jet tips on our dump truck.

The results were not even worth comparing for us. We found that the jet tips would cut through the snow pack and then melt the snow from the bottom up. Another great aspect of the jet tips is that boom height is no longer an issue. I see that some recommend running the tips 12-16 inches off the ground (per manufacturer spec). Jet tips spray a straight steam. For us this is great because our booms can stay higher off the ground and out of the way when backing up to snow piles when plowing. In the case of our hooklift truck sprayer, we are running boomless tips on the two outside zones. The higher we are able to put them off the ground the wider we can spray. Those tips were ultimately our deciding factor for our boom height, as the correct flow rate to match our middle section needed our boomless tips to spray 10 ft wide.

I'd like to comment on CELandcapes post on the application rate of 10-18 gallons an acre. This seems unbelievable to me, but after further thought I may have figured it out. We are located over 300 miles north. Our sun has significantly less power during the winter months. This really reduces the amount of natural melting that occurs. Also our ground temperatures will remain very cold, driving the frost line down to 8 feet or more some winters. I came to this conclusion because in the later months of our plowing season (February to April), we notice our parking lots melting as we plow them. The sun is beginning to have enough power to start the natural melting process. There are some times when we do not even need to treat our accounts. This could be a very good explanation for some of the differing opinions on application rates, boom tips, and the final outcome.

On our booms, we have all of our jet tips fastened with camlocks. This makes changing between tips very convenient. We do leave the jet tips on for de-icing, but during the summer months exchange them for fan tips for dust control. There is then no need for us to fabricate different booms.


----------



## CELandscapes

VS Innovation;2116844 said:


> The first year we switched to liquid, we had our trucks equipped with fan tips. They did work, but not as well as we would have liked. We found the fan tips to work well for pre-treating, but lacked power during post treat applications. The pattern was obviously more like a field or yard sprayer which consistently covered the ground but had a hard time cutting through snow pack. At the end of our first season we removed the fan tips and put 1/2 inch jet tips on our dump truck.
> 
> The results were not even worth comparing for us. We found that the jet tips would cut through the snow pack and then melt the snow from the bottom up. Another great aspect of the jet tips is that boom height is no longer an issue. I see that some recommend running the tips 12-16 inches off the ground (per manufacturer spec). Jet tips spray a straight steam. For us this is great because our booms can stay higher off the ground and out of the way when backing up to snow piles when plowing. In the case of our hooklift truck sprayer, we are running boomless tips on the two outside zones. The higher we are able to put them off the ground the wider we can spray. Those tips were ultimately our deciding factor for our boom height, as the correct flow rate to match our middle section needed our boomless tips to spray 10 ft wide.
> 
> I'd like to comment on CELandcapes post on the application rate of 10-18 gallons an acre. This seems unbelievable to me, but after further thought I may have figured it out. We are located over 300 miles north. Our sun has significantly less power during the winter months. This really reduces the amount of natural melting that occurs. Also our ground temperatures will remain very cold, driving the frost line down to 8 feet or more some winters. I came to this conclusion because in the later months of our plowing season (February to April), we notice our parking lots melting as we plow them. The sun is beginning to have enough power to start the natural melting process. There are some times when we do not even need to treat our accounts. This could be a very good explanation for some of the differing opinions on application rates, boom tips, and the final outcome.
> 
> On our booms, we have all of our jet tips fastened with camlocks. This makes changing between tips very convenient. We do leave the jet tips on for de-icing, but during the summer months exchange them for fan tips for dust control. There is then no need for us to fabricate different booms.


on each tip I have three options to choose from as far as what kind of tip to run. They're changed by twisting and locking a new one in place. Never really had an issue with the tips not being able to cut through the hard pack but since most lots are pre treated the hard pick is non existent.

I personally like the bar a little closer to the ground. It keeps the brine mixes off the truck and on a real windy day, keeps me from losing as much to drifting.


----------



## 86 CJ

CELandscapes;2119900 said:


> on each tip I have three options to choose from as far as what kind of tip to run. They're changed by twisting and locking a new one in place. Never really had an issue with the tips not being able to cut through the hard pack but since most lots are pre treated the hard pick is non existent.
> 
> I personally like the bar a little closer to the ground. It keeps the brine mixes off the truck and on a real windy day, keeps me from losing as much to drifting.


We are still messing with out boom Placement and different tips/nozzles on our 450 bulk spray truck for pre-treating and post. My 250 has drilled holes every 3" in the boom and works great for post treating and cutting through most anything left over(cheap and effective). The 450 has Tripple T Jets on it which are great for post treating, but we threw some fan type nozzles on the boom last spray and liked the coverage on the surface much better for pre-treating. It also has Barbs on the sides which shoot out 15', but I think we need more on the side booms because there are gaps in the coverage. Please post a pic of your boom setup when you get a chance CEL. Thanks


----------



## CELandscapes

Here are pics of the boom and nozzles. I have a low profile tank like VS has. i switched from the tote conversion to cut down on liquid sloshing and more visibility. I also like the extra room for a single stage snowblower and shovels etc.


----------



## VS Innovation

CELandscapes;2119900 said:


> on each tip I have three options to choose from as far as what kind of tip to run. They're changed by twisting and locking a new one in place. Never really had an issue with the tips not being able to cut through the hard pack but since most lots are pre treated the hard pick is non existent.
> 
> I personally like the bar a little closer to the ground. It keeps the brine mixes off the truck and on a real windy day, keeps me from losing as much to drifting.


I like the design of your shielded boom CE. What kind of luck have you had spraying on windy days? We have found that when the snow is blowing, spraying our accounts actually attracts more snow to our treated pavement. We always try to avoid spraying until the wind dies down.

We usually will not pre-treat our accounts (mainly due to the fact most are open 24 hrs and the lots are full of cars). We have had great luck pre-treating, especially if we are able to plow our accounts one time and be done. The traction on pre-treated pavement is noticeably better for our payloaders. There have been storms this year where I have not been able to move on one account (this account request almost no de-icing), and have been making full pushes with a 12 ft push box and our 21 ft snow wing with no problems on our accounts that we consistently post treat. The rubber cutting edge on the push box will literally act like a squeegee and expose bare pavement. The snow will be melting off the lot as we plow. This really helps cut down on the post treatment we need to do.


----------



## CELandscapes

VS Innovation;2120547 said:


> I like the design of your shielded boom CE. What kind of luck have you had spraying on windy days? We have found that when the snow is blowing, spraying our accounts actually attracts more snow to our treated pavement. We always try to avoid spraying until the wind dies down.
> 
> We usually will not pre-treat our accounts (mainly due to the fact most are open 24 hrs and the lots are full of cars). We have had great luck pre-treating, especially if we are able to plow our accounts one time and be done. The traction on pre-treated pavement is noticeably better for our payloaders. There have been storms this year where I have not been able to move on one account (this account request almost no de-icing), and have been making full pushes with a 12 ft push box and our 21 ft snow wing with no problems on our accounts that we consistently post treat. The rubber cutting edge on the push box will literally act like a squeegee and expose bare pavement. The snow will be melting off the lot as we plow. This really helps cut down on the post treatment we need to do.


I've had decent luck with it. But I believe it's a combination of the boom being close to the ground and the shield over the boom. It helps keep road debris off the tips as well.


----------



## Broncslefty7

DE-Ice, i noticed you will apply that ibg liquid, how much are you adding to your salt brine, i have been getting prices around 2.70 per gallon.


----------



## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7;2120638 said:


> DE-Ice, i noticed you will apply that ibg liquid, how much are you adding to your salt brine, i have been getting prices around 2.70 per gallon.


That is a good Price for Liquid IBG, we are paying a bit more here in MD. You need to add 20% to your Brine to get the best residual/Melting power for pre-treating and or de-Icing after you plow and you should see great results, depending on temps of the day of the storm. You can go down to 10% and will see better results then regular Brine on warmer temps, but I would stick with 20% for anything below 25 degrees to get full benefits. We are still testing and trying different application ourselves, hoping to do more with it Tuesday-Wed if temps drop back down.


----------



## Broncslefty7

so if im making 850 gallon batches of brine i need to add 170 gallons of ibg magic to it increasing my cost per batch by $459.00. that seem pricey to me.


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7;2120662 said:


> so if im making 850 gallon batches of brine i need to add 170 gallons of ibg magic to it increasing my cost per batch by $459.00. that seem pricey to me.


I have a post in different thread about our cost to make brine, but I'll explain it here also. We use reject salt from the salt block manufacturing process. Our delivered cost per ton of this salt is 17 dollars. We have modified our brine maker to handle the larger chunks of salt. Our cost to make brine per gallon including overhead and labor is 4 cents per gallon.

Our calcium chloride blend costs us 79 cents per gallon delivered. A 90/10 blend is just under 12 center per gallon. This product has worked great for us and has been incredibly cheap to apply.


----------



## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7;2120662 said:


> so if im making 850 gallon batches of brine i need to add 170 gallons of ibg magic to it increasing my cost per batch by $459.00. that seem pricey to me.


Bronc

You are comparing a 4 banger to a Turbo Diesel, lol.

Yes, its going to cost you more to be spraying Magic Blend, but you also need to charge more for a premium product or look at what it does when comparing it to using regular Brine. Lower Freezing point by at least 30 Degrees, Way lower corrosion on everything, much better residual(big one there)and less product used when you have the ability to track it through a lot and see it work. Regular Brine only does so much(we barely every use it). Try comparing the Magic Blend to taking the same lot and instead of dumping 20 Bags of Mag(That would work, but then possible re-freeze) to spraying something with the same melting power, but with better residual. Its another tool to have that works well for use, we still like using our 90/10 Calcium as well, but not for pre-treating or (LOW CORROSION CUSTOMERS). Customers will like how the there sidewalks look as well and that's where you also see savings when you are using a couple gallons spraying instead of dumping $12-$15 dollar bags of blended Mag every 1-2,000 sf and seeing it there there next morning going into there lobbys

We have been there and done all that, just go try it out and see if you can make it work for yourself Thumbs Up Then you can come back and talk Sh!t about it because you have the experience or say that you really liked it like the majority who use it 

Just throwing all this out there because we have been at where you are thinking right now and had to get past the cost and see why we really want to use it, just like any other product that's actually worth a crap, but you have to spend more $$ on .

Sorry for the book guys


----------



## SaratogaSnowPro

You also have to look at the amount you need to put down. Salt brine is going down at 80-100 gallons per acre/lm. If you add 20% magic to the brine you can apply at 25-40gallons per acre/lm with the added staying power because of the carbs in the IBG Magic liquid. It will work to -5 when blended with Magic. less product, less corrosive, less refills and a better product than using regular salt brine.


----------



## Broncslefty7

trust me i am not talking ****, i am just running numbers and looking at possibilities. i have thousands of pounds of salt and calcium in house already, and was thinking a salt/calcium brine would work most times because we hardly ever see any temps below 15-20. i did not know that adding 20% ibg magic would make the end product that much less corrosive.

after running some numbers i am looking at about

12 cents per gallon of regular brine
20 cents per gallon of hot brine (with 20% calcium)
55 cents per gallon of IBG mix (80% brine 20% ibg)


----------



## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7;2120708 said:


> trust me i am not talking ****, i am just running numbers and looking at possibilities. i have thousands of pounds of salt and calcium in house already, and was thinking a salt/calcium brine would work most times because we hardly ever see any temps below 15-20. i did not know that adding 20% ibg magic would make the end product that much less corrosive.
> 
> after running some numbers i am looking at about
> 
> 12 cents per gallon of regular brine
> 20 cents per gallon of hot brine (with 20% calcium)
> 55 cents per gallon of IBG mix (80% brine 20% ibg)


Those numbers are very accurate. The only reason our numbers are so low is due to the fact we can buy our salt so cheap. If we were to run bulk salt at local prices, our numbers would look very similar.


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## Broncslefty7

yes i am paying 82 dollars per ton of salt rite now, and i am paying 14 cents per lb of calcium.


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## 86 CJ

Broncslefty7;2120714 said:


> yes i am paying 82 dollars per ton of salt rite now, and i am paying 14 cents per lb of calcium.


Your learning Bronc. 

Your end prices are better than ours, we are paying $10/ton less than you for salt, but way more for IBG at the moment  but we use the product because of the results we see. Yes, we use less of the IBG blend than other products and see better results because of its tracking and residual.


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## Broncslefty7

this may be a stupid question but, when we are dealing with corrosive water in pools we add PH down to protect the plaster finish. why not just balance the ph of the brine to around 7.8? wouldnt this reduce the amount of corrosion while still keeping the chlorides intact? in pools when you generate chlorine from salt through electrolysis that NaCl is being broken down into Cl (chlorine). Chlorine has a PH of about 9.2, which is what im guessing this brine is going to be pretty close to. wouldnt it make sense to add 3-5 lbs of ph down to balance it out? you would still have the chlorides, and since you have some calcium in there the water wouldnt be sucking it out of the concrete.

just my thoughts it kind of hit me during lunch.


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## VS Innovation

Broncslefty7;2120750 said:


> this may be a stupid question but, when we are dealing with corrosive water in pools we add PH down to protect the plaster finish. why not just balance the ph of the brine to around 7.8? wouldnt this reduce the amount of corrosion while still keeping the chlorides intact? in pools when you generate chlorine from salt through electrolysis that NaCl is being broken down into Cl (chlorine). Chlorine has a PH of about 9.2, which is what im guessing this brine is going to be pretty close to. wouldnt it make sense to add 3-5 lbs of ph down to balance it out? you would still have the chlorides, and since you have some calcium in there the water wouldnt be sucking it out of the concrete.
> 
> just my thoughts it kind of hit me during lunch.


I'll first say that I do not have any experience with pools or ph levels of brine. There is one thing that may concern me about adding another product to your brine mixture. The lowest freezing point of brine is at a 23.3% brine solution. When the brine solution reaches higher levels of saturation, the freezing point is increased. The molecules become more closely packed together and begin to take on properties of a solid more than a liquid (they are not as free to move around). Adding another water based product without adding a benefit of a lower freezing point will force the brine to hold more in solution. The freezing point may be greatly affected with the water already at 1/4 of its holding capacity of salt, and being forced to carry another product in solution. Also the brine solution at 23.3% is significantly higher than anything you would find in a pool.

Again, I am not a chemist, nor do I have any experience with pools or ph levels. This is just a thought. You could always test this by making a mini batch of brine and adding enough ph down to match the ph levels of a pool, and then test its freezing point.


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## Broncslefty7

yeah i am going to try it on monday, the PH up and PH down are powder, ill test the PH of the brine and see what it is. (The PH of a tear drop is 7.4 so when you go in a pool and your kids eyes turn red, its from the PH not the chlorine!! for some reason everyone thinks its the chlorine lol) ill post some results on monday of what we find.


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## dodgegmc1213

How do you guys figure your price per gallon on ibg mix? I've figured the salt brine alone based on the salt we get from the company we sub off, he charges $111/yd so I figured $.13 a gallon?? But I keep coming up with different prices per gallon of ibg mix depending on the gallons of ibg added, doing it at 80/20. Unless that is the case? I would be getting it for 2.90 a gallon from the dealer. Thanks


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## JD Dave

Have you guys ever tried pretreating a parking lot with brine say at 50 g/acre then say the other half with salt at the same rate of actual salt content of brine 115 lbs/acre.


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## VS Innovation

JD Dave;2121176 said:


> Have you guys ever tried pretreating a parking lot with brine say at 50 g/acre then say the other half with salt at the same rate of actual salt content of brine 115 lbs/acre.


Brine works very well for pre-treating because you are able to evenly apply the the salt on the ground. It is identical to spraying a lawn. The water is used as a medium for the salt, dispersing it across the ground. The water then evaporates, leaving an even coating of salt behind.

This has a great advantage over spreading rock salt. If you were to spread 115 lbs of salt over an acre there would be many uncovered areas. The spots where a piece of salt sat would melt, but areas without salt would not melt.


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## VS Innovation

dodgegmc1213;2121124 said:


> How do you guys figure your price per gallon on ibg mix? I've figured the salt brine alone based on the salt we get from the company we sub off, he charges $111/yd so I figured $.13 a gallon?? But I keep coming up with different prices per gallon of ibg mix depending on the gallons of ibg added, doing it at 80/20. Unless that is the case? I would be getting it for 2.90 a gallon from the dealer. Thanks


Here is how you would figure your cost per gallon when mixing different products together.

For you, lets say brine costs 13 cents per gallon and your IBG costs 2.90 dollars per gallon.

At 90/10

(.13 dollars per gallon x .9) + ( 2.90 dollars per gallon x .1) = .407 dollars per gallon or 40.7 cents per gallon

The formula
( cost of brine in dollars x percentage brine) + ( cost of mixed product in dollars x percentage used) = total cost in dollars per gallon.
Divide by 100 for cents per gallon.


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## JD Dave

VS Innovation;2122053 said:


> Brine works very well for pre-treating because you are able to evenly apply the the salt on the ground. It is identical to spraying a lawn. The water is used as a medium for the salt, dispersing it across the ground. The water then evaporates, leaving an even coating of salt behind.
> 
> This has a great advantage over spreading rock salt. If you were to spread 115 lbs of salt over an acre there would be many uncovered areas. The spots where a piece of salt sat would melt, but areas without salt would not melt.


We do a lot of field spraying and fertilizer spreading and have played a lot with liquids before it whas considered cool. We were prewetting salt back in 2002 along with pretreating sidewalks and lots. I'm just asking if people on here have done any side by side comparisons. Kind of like doing corn or bean plots on a farm to see what is best.


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## Broncslefty7

Dave i did one about two weeks ago, take a look at the Salt vs Liquids thread.


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## GLSS22

JD Dave;2122077 said:


> We do a lot of field spraying and fertilizer spreading and have played a lot with liquids before it whas considered cool. We were prewetting salt back in 2002 along with pretreating sidewalks and lots. I'm just asking if people on here have done any side by side comparisons. Kind of like doing corn or bean plots on a farm to see what is best.


Do you still prewet salt or pretreat your lots?


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