# Another new to ice control question...



## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

Based on those temperatures... What would you do for ice control? I have yet to find any "magic type" product available in Colorado in bags.

Would you consider sand? Or is just more effective to use de-icer? The sun is intense and ground temps exceed the above graph, but what about shady areas?

I am concerned that if I buy a single stage machine, that I won't be effective using straight ice melt to reduce slipping.. But I don't have the customer base yet for a V-box or 2 stage tailgate machine.

Howard


----------



## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Howard, I found myself in that same dilemna - you need the equipment to get the customers but need the customers (income) to get the equipment. I would agree with earlier posts - don't even consider getting a single stage in your situation. I can only advise you based on my own experience. I decided that the money was in sanding but didn't have the customer base to justify the expense. Two years ago, I took a deep, DEEP breath - bought a good, five year old 3500 flatbed specifically for the new two yard sander and went marketing to customers who would need and want the sander. I was surprised how it seemed that they (those type customers) just seemed somehow to gravitate to me. To the point that I did not advertise at all this year. It helped that my sand/salt supplier was getting out of the plowing/sanding business and referred people to me. Next summer I'm going to develop an advertisement stategy to market to those who want "snow and ice MANAGEMENT" (read pretreating with salting/Magic Salt and sanding). 

Investment for truck and sander - little over $20,000 plus ins/tax/license etc. Based on what I had for potential sanding at the time (one lot) it would have taken at least 30 years to pay for it. Now, I figure I'm down to 10 years. Hopefully, next year I'll add enough that I'll have the investment back from sanding by the end of winter 2004.

If you just can't get new - maybe you could get a good, used Vbox for a couple of thousand? I think I've seen some in the "For Sale" section. Maybe you'd need to travel some for it, though. Or maybe your area is like mine - lots of snow related items for sale in the paper right now. I still emphasize my advise before, don't waste your time/money on a single stage spreader.


----------



## BRL (Dec 21, 1999)

OK here is my plan for how you should spend your money, based on posts you've made:

I think we've already determined & steered you toward the purchase of a V-box or at the very least a good 2 stage tailgater. So I think we're past that part of the decision. Now onto what to use. I think you told me you have a skidder. So you will need to steal a few parking spaces from the brewery at the least, or maybe you have another piece of property where you can do this. (Check with your good clients, maybe someone has a great spot in an out of the way section of their lot that it would be OK to store salt at) You will buy a tandem load of salt delivered to the location (or as many tandems as you may need to keep on hand). You will then buy Magic, or one of the other brands of products that have similar effects, in liquid form & spray your piles yourself & mix them. The liquid can be shipped to you in 55 gallon drums usually & you can use the skid to unload it. Then you will load the newly acquired spreader yourself and not worry about which suppliers in your area may or may not have the correct salt for the situation you are dealing with at the time. Good luck!

Didn't realize how much fun it is to spend other people's money


----------



## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Howard, you might want to consider some of the points mentioned in this article. Scott Zorno is out in Colorado too, and he has found that liquids are the best choice for him.

http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com/mag_chloride.html

I recall from the SIMA Symposium in Denver, that liquid prices (MAG and Calcium) were around $0.40 a gallon. Much cheaper than the $1.90+ we pay out here.

~Chuck


----------



## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

Chuck,

Thanks for reminding me about that link. Mag is all the state uses now.

I was/am fearful because everyone here says liquid takes alot of experience, of which I have none.

From Scott's article he said he gets 1500 gallon to last 2/3 of the season. I obviously need to talk to the manufacturers, but is he diluting this to his needed concentration? Scott tried various concentrations till the got the desired results. Does he have to spec that with his supplier?

I can't see myself pretreating the entire lot. It is about 60,000 sqft, based on Scott'ts numbers I would need 300 gallons. I would use alot more than 2000 gallons a year at that rate. Probably just want to treat the higher traffic areas.

Not to debunk Magic salt, but isn't it just mag treated rock salt? The liquid would work better as a pretreat because of complete road coverage I am guessing? What about as a De-icer which is more effective?

Liquid would actually be easier for me to handle as I don't have my/a skid steer around. 

Lots more questions...just have to wait till monday to talk to some people.

Howard


----------



## Innovative (Sep 24, 2002)

Contact Envirotech they are the main source of products and information in your area www.envirotechservices.com


----------



## nulawndog (Nov 19, 2002)

GMCO Corporation they are in Rifle Colorado. Contact: Randy Parsons. Office: (970) 625-9100 They have Ice Ban also maybe treated salt


----------



## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

Thanks guys!

I talked to Envirotech who put me in contact with their local rep. The local rep was so-so in being helpful. Reccommended Ice slicer RS. Couldn't give me a price on a super sack (1ton bag), was going to get back to me. The Redlands Minerals website lists RS as best applied with a V-Box. I asked repeatedly if it would run through a single stage, reciever mounted spreader, He kept saying yes. I am worried about buying 3 tons and not being able to run it. 

Anybody use it before? The state DOT is the only user of it locally.

I need to stop in and ask some questions. 

IceSlicer® RS
• Stream-run fine to extra coarse 3/8"
• Produced for outside storage
• Used in general highway and street deicing
• Best applied in a V-box spreader
• Anti-caking and anti-freezing agents added

^ is the description from the manufacturers website.



Howard


----------



## CPSS (Mar 15, 2002)

If you could store it inside it might be OK with your single stage. In my experience, if the spec sheet says "• Best applied in a V-box spreader" that usually means that it won't work well in a single stage spreader, By the way, how much for 1 ton?.


----------



## SnoJob67 (Sep 3, 2001)

I have a Western spreader, single stage. You won't have any trouble with that material spreading with a single stage if you buy a unit like mine or similar. The thing that is nice about the unit I have is that there is a small auger in the hopper to eliminate bridging of material.

If you feel you need a two stage spreader, you need to buy a GOOD single stage, with the exception of spreading mix (another proven waste). Don't let someone convince you to waste your money on a two stage spreader if you are not spreading sand/salt mix! *If you are going to buy a two-stage, just spring for the extra money and buy a V-Box.*

*When you are looking at spreaders, ask if the unit you are looking at works well for Calcium Chloride and smaller particles. *Some spreaders will allow the smaller diameter material to feed out of the bottom of the hopper when you drive down the road. Good luck. Again, don't waste your money on a two stage unless you are positive you will use sand/salt mix, otherwise you might as well throw the extra money it will cost right out the truck window IMO.


----------



## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

$160 a ton for IceSlicer Medium
• Medium size, 100% screened
• Produced for use as a packaged deicer
• Dust-free
• May be applied by spreader or by hand
• Dry material, must be stored inside or tarped

$4 per 50lbs... Less than what I would pay for straight rock salt bagged.


Not to step on any shoes..... and I only get this impression because of my experience in the field. I would like to bet that their are few main producers of salt additives, Redmond Minerals and IceBan. Redmond Minerals gave exclusive rights to Envirotech to market their product for the snow industry outside of Utah. I am guessing that everyone can tell me up and down how one is better than the other, but from my research this week they use the same techniques. Mag Chloride to reduce the temperature where salt becomes ineffecitive and some sort of corrosion inhibitor. "Magic" I don't know, but the claims and stated ingredients sound very famillar.

Howard


----------



## nulawndog (Nov 19, 2002)

Call Joe Mahoney at Bare Ground Solutions. He has all the info on liquid products. Also the spec for Colorado DOT recuirments. He has all states and local goverment specs. Also, Joe will give you a contact in Colorado that uses about 1MM gallons of Iceban a year. It's not all the same. 888-800-8356.


----------



## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

Thanks for the info! I got quoted .50 a gallon for the same product that CDOT uses (Picked up in Glenwood Springs, Bulk) from the local reps of Iceban that you gave me.


----------



## BRL (Dec 21, 1999)

Very similar... Yet very different.

Take your search a little deeper & I think you will find that there are more than just 2 companies holding patents for their salt treating technologies. And the different patents means they were scientifically able to prove that their methods\materials were measurably different from the other mothods\materials out there.


----------



## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

Very true.... I just wised they would all keep the names the same nationallly.. I want peoples actual experience, but sometimes it is hard to tell what they are actually using.

CDOT uses Iceslicer treated salt, and uses Iceban liquid.

They are using Caliber, M90 I think also??? But not real sure who manufactures those?

They vary the chemical based on road temps/humidity and forecast, much more scientific then me.


----------



## hillworks7669 (Dec 19, 2002)

*Caliber*

chtucker

For more info on Caliber log on www.anti-icers.com


----------



## nulawndog (Nov 19, 2002)

BRL
This is very true. There are liquid deicer products out there that have no chemical analysis to support claims. I find you need to follow your State guideline on what product they use. Some will go as far as piggyback other patents. This will keep you out of hot water with DEC, EPA, DEM and others. 

chtucker 
That is a great price. I pay a little more for Iceban. not much more. good luck.


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Howard, you're aware that Magic is a by-product of brewing, aren't you? I'll bet with a little digging, you could find out how it's made and supply yourself with de-icer. How slick would that be?


----------



## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

No... I wasn't 


We don't use corn. Just pure malted barley like the commerical says. The liquid we get is what we want (extracting the sugars from the barley). The spent grain we give to a farmer to feed his pigs and cattle.... He stopped giving it to the chickens, they stopped laying eggs when on the spent grain diet. 

I surely would like to know what the process is.


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

I imagine it's a trade secret, but maybe a line to John Parker might point you in the right direction.


----------



## BRL (Dec 21, 1999)

Basically, the stuff you're giving to the farmer is the stuff they use to make Magic. Maybe not your particular waste though. Supposedly the story is some European guy working at a vodka or other some such liquor processing plant noticed that there was never any ice or snow where their byproduct waste drain was. That sparked the light bulb in his head & here we are today. Just don't mix the bleach with the ammonia and have fun experimenting


----------



## Plow Babe (Feb 4, 2003)

*Magic Salt available in Colorado?*

We are interested in Magic Salt (or similar product) in 50# bags; do you know who distributes this in Colorado? We are just "over the hill" from Leadville, in Dillon. Our customer is specifically concerned about damage to their landscaping, so we don't want to use just salt. Thank you!


----------



## nulawndog (Nov 19, 2002)

GMCO Corporation they are in Rifle Colorado. Contact: Randy Parsons. Office: (970) 625-9100 They have Iceban also maybe treated salt.


----------



## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

Karen:

I spent a week researching ice melters. I will give you a call (I see your add in the paper ) and share what I learned...

Howard


----------



## szorno (Jan 3, 2002)

Karen and Howard,
You have a couple real good options. Both using Envorotech as supplier. I have had 5 years of good service from them.
first, you can do ice-slicer in 3 different formulas bulk delivered. You need a good big tailgate spreader or one of the hopper types to make it worthwhile. You also need a sheltered area to store product. Enclosed is not necessary.
Second option is what I did. I went for the liquid mag chloride. there are 3 or 4 flavors available, based on euctectic temp (working temp) I use the Freeze-guard. Same as most CDOT sites. The Caliber is the next up price scale. Then IceBan. Freeze-guard quits at about 0 degreesF. caliber goes down a bunch colder. We got our most recent spray system from Prestige in Brighton. Cost- about $3000 for simple system. I use a really nice, 86 chevy k30 dually. Mag weighs about 11 lbs per gallon so with a 350 gal tank I need the dually. You can do a 200 gallon tank too. That works well in a 3/4 t. Our first truck was like that.
Anyway, check out the article on Chuck's plow contractors page. There is a good business case and other info.  Call me if you like
(303) 838-4273
good luck... scott


----------



## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

Thanks Scott for replying. I was hoping you were lurking around.

I read you article and am waiting for next year to do liquids. I got the contract (the medical center and hospital, just like your acount in the article), but the hospital wants to rearrange some works schedules.

I did talk to envirotech about chemicals, but could not seem to get the answers about equipment. I have some literature on prebuilt skids, but I question the need for a hand held sprayer. Do you have that on yours? I don't do sidewalks... yet.


Did you buy the skid from Kois brother's?

Howard


----------



## Taconic (May 18, 2001)

*Envirotec*

If your in Colorado Envirotec is the place to go.They do not sell iceban but do have both Caliber and Magic.They can definitely set you up with the best product for your needs
John Parker
Taconic Maintenance Inc
845-485-4200


----------

