# Liquid Set up 95% Complete!



## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

So here it is, 95% complete, still waiting on a hose reel for the fill hose. basically we have our 500 gallon batch salt brine maker, connected to a 250 gallon batch calcium brine maker. once the two batches are complete we just turn a valve and combine them. after the brine makers we are hard plumbed into a 1500 gallon tank for the non-corrosive sidewalk mix on the left with a 3 way valve to pump the regular road brine into the 3500 gallon tank. connected to the tank drains is a 3 way valve attached to an electric pump and some gas pump hose to fill up sprayers etc. etc. we used schedule 40. PVC for all of the plumbing and Inground pool and above ground pool pumps to make everything run. total investment on material is rite around $3,800.00. the most expensive pieces where the tanks which we got off a gentleman that was selling them used rite here on plow site. i was thinking if we needed more storage in the future we could probably core drill through the back wall of the building and plumb to an exterior tank, we should have room for 2 5k gallons tanks out back. Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvement!!!

Thanks!


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Back when we sprayed we put our supply tank up high so we didn't have to rely on pumps and power to fill the trucks, just gravity, it also allowed for larger diameter valves and hoses for filling without moving up to larger pumps. The supply tank had a toilet fill valve so it was always refilled while we were out spraying. Just some ideas off the top of my head.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

Smart. The pumps do about 110 gpm and they are chemical rated so they should last. Since we r a pool company they where wicked cheap. Idk how you would put a large tank above the height of a truck. We currently have everything plumbed at 2". That toilet bowl fill is super interesting I will look into that


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

It seems like a lot of people "used" to spray. Any reason for stopping?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

We sprayed lawns, we have a pesticide ban in Ontario now.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

Ah, that makes sense. That must have hurt a lot of companies that sucks


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mafia blocks for building up your tank base.Our thought was the less pumps the better, being a pool guy that makes sense that you wouldn't care about that.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

We buy them super cheap


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## Leland Lawn (Sep 27, 2011)

I like the idea of using pool pumps rather then gas. I am doing research toward building my first brine setup.

Would you mind sharing your brand of pumps or links on where to purchase them? I have two welding outlets in my shop that I could use at the power source.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

hayward is the cheapest, but you get what you pay for. you will need a 1.5 HP hayward super pump or Pentair Whisperflow for your brine maker. thats the biggest you can get without needing 230V. if you have 230V get a 3 HP Pentair whisper flow and plumb it all 3", that would be a bad ass brine maker. once you go over 2 HP you need to size up your plumbing from 2" to 3". we get the pumps about 10% under online cost from local distributors. they wont sell to people unless they have the proper pool license so your best bet is an online company. pentair is the better brand but will cost 50-60 more.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Every time I see one of these threads it makes me want to try liquids again.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

i like them for pre treating but idk if i trust it for de icing yet. we get alot of wet snow.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

So you are only pre treating? I Have been following and looking into liquids for the past year. I'm just confused at the total costs. Does the cost really accurately done to include all the mAn hours to make it,store it and move it around not to mention cost of water salt and calcium plus the elec or gas to mix for an hour.

I been doing some math and I cant come near the finished per gallon prices being talked about. I had a great talk with a very large locally landscaper they service the same area as me. I ran my numbers by him and he related I'm very close but still on the low side of a true finished product. He showed me numbers from 5 years ago before they dumped there whole liquid program. After one year they found it cost just as much as spreading salt and salt worked all the time. No need to adjust mixtures send different trucks just load hoppers and go. 

My plan is to make a small brine maker to spray sidewalks and maybe do a little pre wet experiment. Currently I'm using magic salt and pretreat with straight salt.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

thats what i did last year fireside. we demo'd on walks.

my math works like this

4 Cents per lb of salt
im on a well so say 5 Cents per gallon of water for electricity
it takes two men making 15/hr 1 hour to make 800 gallons
6 cents per lb of calcium

So per gallon on brine

2.28 lbs of salt = 9 cents
Water = 5 cents
Calcium = 22.5 cents
Labor = 3 cents per gallon

Total = 39.50 cents per gallon pumped into storage in our garage

40 Gallons per acre pretreat brings our material cost per acre to $15.80. If you are salting at 800 lbs per acre you cost per acre on material is $32.00. also with the GPS controls on the units you dont have to worry about your guys under or over applying and wasting product, which is awesome i think, because training sucks.

it takes 3 minutes to fill our 700 gallon tank on the truck, which is already on property plowing just like a Vbox would be.

Send the truck out to pretreat 13 acres is the same time it would take with a Vbox.

come back to the shop to refill before it starts snowing, then when it starts snowing go out and plow then treat after storm. Im not saying we are not DE-icing at all with it. i just dont trust it just enough yet to sell all my Vboxes. i will most likley always keep one on hand. The big attraction for me was i have nowhere to store salt. with liquid i can make it way ahead of a storm (i have 2k gallons on hand now) and i have room for 5k gallons in my shop. i dont have to wait for the salt place to open at 4 am which is really nice. at the beginning of a storm i will fill my Vbox and liquid tank. if i dont use all the salt in my Vbox i use the remainder to make more liquid. it works for me idk everyones operations are different. I LOVE the liquid for sidewalks though, i didnt buy a bagged product all winter last year. the snow ex sprayer is 800 bucks but i bought one for $250 used. No waste, no corrosion (Non Corrosive De Icer we make for sidewalks) no dealing with half used bags, liquid in 5 gal containers takes up way less space than what would be required in bagged product. we can treat all of our sidewalks with 28 gallons of liquid, so that cost me about $11.06 in material (labor stays the same between the two on walks). to treat the same amount of sidewalk would take us about 8 bags of solid product which = $52.00.

The Savings on sidewalks is what made me start using it on parking lots. Most contractors in Connecticut hate liquids because they think it takes too long to apply, mostly because they dont know what a 3 lane boom is. Also most guys are using straight brine with calcium brine mixed in, instead of including some kind of inhibitor. without an inhibitor with out humidity levels in the winter and the wet snow you get flash freezing.

Once i get out of pool season and into snow mode, feel free to come on up and stop by my shop. Ill run you through it, and see if you like it or not. Just because it works for me doesnt mean it will work for you.

DE-ICE Patrol, and VSI have been extremely extremely helpful in the liquid learning process for me.


**Also i started selling the 5 gallon containers of our sidewalk mix to some of our customers that we do not provide sidewalk service for. They like it because of the obvious no concrete damage, or tracking salt inside. plus its a bit cheaper. Fireside if you want come stop by, bring some buckets ill fill you up for free. im not looking to sell it, but it would be nice to have some more people around me using it, so that maybe some day people will start buying it! :usflag:


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

I'm very lucky I have two locations I store salt in covered bins so I buy tri axle loads. Plus I have machines on location so no real cost to load salt 24/7 at my pace. My biggest concern is my service location orange / Milford area do we get the famous snow to rain mess and very wet snow all the time so I'm really not sure liquids will work. 

Last year I used all magic salt on the sidewalks from the bulk piles so my cost was far cheaper than bagged but I do have bagged on the trucks and loader. I buy blizzard wizard for $6 for 50 lb bags it magic salt in a bag.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

Yeah I was paying 6.50 two years ago. I just don't have room at my shop and the last big account I'm working on in my area is the one with the salt shed lol. I've been trying for three years to get it. It's the last piece to my snow removal puzzle and would add a few acres to our portfolio


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## Leland Lawn (Sep 27, 2011)

Broncslefty7 said:


> hayward is the cheapest, but you get what you pay for. you will need a 1.5 HP hayward super pump or Pentair Whisperflow for your brine maker. thats the biggest you can get without needing 230V. if you have 230V get a 3 HP Pentair whisper flow and plumb it all 3", that would be a bad ass brine maker. once you go over 2 HP you need to size up your plumbing from 2" to 3". we get the pumps about 10% under online cost from local distributors. they wont sell to people unless they have the proper pool license so your best bet is an online company. pentair is the better brand but will cost 50-60 more.


Sweet! Thank you for the quick reply and advice! I will look into those, and to running 3" piping. I like the thought of being able turn over batches more quickly. I have always rented a 7600 gal tank from the local chemical company in the winter, and so building up a good storage base will be my priority this Fall.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

I bought my storage system off a guy on plowsite!


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## delcosnow1 (Feb 11, 2016)

I build a system last year looks very similar. Mine seems to work great, you look likes like it should work fine. I have a question for you guys what are you using to make a non corrosive side walk solution? I haven't used calcium yet because I'm in the northeast an we don't get real cold temps, should I be using calcium for different reason the temp?


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

so regular salt brine has a ph of 8.6-9.2 which is extremely corrosive. IBG and other liquid DE icers have a PH of around 4.5-5.0 which is extremely acidic. these big market liquids like IBG or tiger melt are a little pricey. its all about getting your PH number between 7.2-7.8 that will make your solution nuetral. you can use regular swimming pool balancers to do that which is what we do.


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## delcosnow1 (Feb 11, 2016)

Thanks broncslefty would you mine pm me to explain that alittle more, I am trying to make everything myself instead of buying it.


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## William Brett (May 6, 2010)

Hi Broncs, 

What PH balancer do you use and how much do you use?


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