# New concrete-questions for salting



## Sno4U (Dec 30, 2003)

We poured a small sidewalk for a L.C. client this past Sat. and since then its been pretty cold. I didn't use any calcium chloride in the mix. It's now set and has been covered w/ tarps ever since temps started dropping below *32 at nite.
So, my question is. I want to seal it (Thompsons) so that I can safely apply a calcium/salt mix this winter.
Its supposed to be in the *55-*60 mark during the next couple of days.
Is it too soon to seal?
Is sealing what I need to do-or something else?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

you would be just as well off to pee on it as use thompsons

go to a concrete contractor supply house and use what they recommend and then follow the direction for that particular product

you will want to wait at least a week and make sure there is no water on the surface

hope this helps:waving:


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## KGRlandscapeing (May 2, 2007)

chances are if u apply any deicing material to it. Its going to flake. You only real option is to just use alot of grit like sand or crushd limestone. makes a mess but cheaper then a new pad


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## outdoorsmen (Oct 19, 2008)

I agree to go to a concrete company and get a good water based sealer.apply on a decent day.
you should not use salt on the new concrete for one year. your concrete will take 28 days to cure in 
the best of conditions. i also agree with krglandscapeing, use some sand. I am a foreman for two conrete plants in michigan, its what we do......


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

outdoorsmen;618063 said:


> I agree to go to a concrete company and get a good water based sealer.apply on a decent day.
> you should not use salt on the new concrete for one year. your concrete will take 28 days to cure in
> the best of conditions. i also agree with krglandscapeing, use some sand. I am a foreman for two conrete plants in michigan, its what we do......


at these temps it will take longer than 28 days especially since no accelerater was used


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## bike5200 (Sep 4, 2007)

You should have put a Cure and Seal on as soon as you got off of the sidewalk before you covered it up. The temp at night is what you got to watch. I would leave it covered for about 7 days. Talk to the company you got the concrete from about the sealer. I would never put salt on concrete, even after a year


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## Sno4U (Dec 30, 2003)

I'm pretty sure I'll be OK NOT using any de-icer this winter. I put a "broom" finish on it and framed each section. It looks nice.
We'll leave tarp on it till this weekend, but will remove for tomorrow only seeing as temps are supposed to hit *60. Also, I'll check into a good concrete sealer at our local contractor's supply house. I'll see if I have time to grab apic tomorrow and get it on here.
Thanks for the help.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

bike5200;618179 said:


> I would never put salt on concrete, even after a year


what would you use then?


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

cretebaby;618968 said:


> what would you use then?


Calcium. NEVER put salt on concrete or pavers.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mid-Ohio Scaper;618979 said:


> NEVER put salt on concrete or pavers.


why not?


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## fubar271 (Sep 3, 2008)

You do not want to put any chlorides on concrete less than 1 year old. You can use CMA or Potassium Acetate if you NEED to melt snow off it.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

one year doesnt really have anything to do with it. concrete should reach full strength at 28 days but possibly longer at these temps this time of year. chloride is not what harms the concrete its the multi freeze thaw process thats why if the concrete is well placed and finished and properly sealed you shouldnt have any problems

so if you have ice put something on it before someone gets hurt


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## BOB JONES (Nov 29, 2001)

cretbaby is right salt will not do any damage to concrete if it is good concrete if had water applied as they were finishing it you could have problems spalding of concrete is caused by a poor mix or freeze and thaw


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

BOB JONES;619181 said:


> cretbaby is right salt will not do any damage to concrete if it is good concrete if had water applied as they were finishing it you could have problems spalding of concrete is caused by a poor mix or freeze and thaw


Well, what does cretebaby mean by "chloride"? There are many different kinds, Sodium chloride (rock salt), calcium chloride, potassium chloride and magnesium chloride. All of which you can use to melt snow and ice, yet calcium chloride, potassium chloride and magnesium chloride will melt snow and ice on concrete with extremely less damage.

It also depends on the concrete and the contractor also! Concrete that contains small air bubbles (air entrained), a minimum of 564 pounds of cement (6 bag mix) per cubic yard and a minimum amount of water when mixed (4 inch slump) can resist repeated episodes of ice expansion within the concrete. In addition, the concrete must be moist cured at or above 50 F for a minimum of seven days, produce a 28 day strength of 4,000 pounds per square inch and have a minimum drying time of 30 days before it is subjected to the first freeze-thaw cycle. These practices are commonly followed by experienced, professional concrete masons.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

BOB JONES;619181 said:


> cretbaby is right salt will not do any damage to concrete if it is good concrete if had water applied as they were finishing it you could have problems spalding of concrete is caused by a poor mix or freeze and thaw


sorry but you lost me with the applying water part


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mid-Ohio Scaper;619218 said:


> Well, what does cretebaby mean by "chloride"? There are many different kinds, Sodium chloride (rock salt), calcium chloride, potassium chloride and magnesium chloride. All of which you can use to melt snow and ice, yet calcium chloride, potassium chloride and magnesium chloride will melt snow and ice on concrete with extremely less damage.
> 
> all of these chlorides are "salt" wether or not they damage has to do with there melting point and the temperature they are used at
> 
> It also depends on the concrete and the contractor also! Concrete that contains small air bubbles (air entrained), a minimum of 564 pounds of cement (6 bag mix) per cubic yard and a minimum amount of water when mixed (4 inch slump) can resist repeated episodes of ice expansion within the concrete. In addition, the concrete must be moist cured at or above 50 F for a minimum of seven days, produce a 28 day strength of 4,000 pounds per square inch and have a minimum drying time of 30 days before it is subjected to the first freeze-thaw cycle. These practices are commonly followed by experienced, professional concrete masons.


 thanks for the lesson


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## The MAG Man (May 31, 2007)

Use sand and no deicers on that concrete for at least two years if you are holding the liabilty on it. If not, then have the client give you written instructions on precisely what brand and type of deicer to use.

Those who said to use calcium in place of salt are wrong. Those who might say MAG is safe are wrong. 

All freeze point lowering deicers will form a brine on the surface with the snow and ice. That brine will seep into the air entrained concrete and fill the air voids sub-surface. As the sun hits the walk, more melting will occur and eventually when the sun goes down the ground temps will drop. When the brine that is trapped in the air voids in the concrete and now heavily diluted by day-time melting reaches its freeze point, it will re-freeze and expand. When it expands it will blow out chunks of concrete. 

Concrete damage of this type is called spalling. It is a mechanical failure not a chemical attack so the chemical you use (in 99% of the cases) doesn't matter if it is a freeze point lowering chemical. That covers ALL chlorides. 

Trust me on this: if you are responsible to repair any damage from deicers then do not use deicers. If the customer tells you what to use in writing and you buy exactly what he said to use and keep the receipts (definitely do this because unless you made the world's greatest concrete it is almost guaranteed it will have spalling damage if you deice it with chlorides) then hope for the best.

Sand and only sand. You might be able to use acetates such as CMA100, calcium magnesium acetate 100% but even that is iffy on weeks old concrete going into season. CMA100 costs about $100/bag by the pallet. Bend over.


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## bike5200 (Sep 4, 2007)

I talked to a road building contractor foreman. They did work for KY DOT. This foreman said that they had tore out concrete that looked fine on top but when the bottom of the concrete was turn over it was eaten up, several inches of concrete was gone. The foreman said this was from road salt being carried down in the cracks and puddling in the sub grade.Now on some jobs, KY DOT specs a very pores asphalt base and then concrete on top of it. This concrete mix is a state spec and salt still cause problems. On my jobs I NEVER use salt on concrete


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

bike5200;619341 said:


> On my jobs I NEVER use salt on concrete


So what do you use for de-icing walks ? I have used many 'blends" that usually boil down to 90% sodium. I have not had issues with rock salt on walks. I use magic quite often too. Road runner works good but is mostly sodium as well. No major concrete failures yet. I wonder how ALL the bridges dont fall down from salt ?


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

hey Todd, 
Your little factoid about Obama is interesting, being from Illinois and since he's a senator there should we the rest of the country be scared??? Because as a business owner I can't help but be scared of this "spread the wealth around" talk.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mid-Ohio Scaper;618979 said:


> Calcium. NEVER put salt on concrete or pavers.


NEVER put salt on pavers? What happens to the pavers if you do?


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

TCLA;619798 said:


> NEVER put salt on pavers? What happens to the pavers if you do?


If it's a concrete paver, then most likely the same thing that happens to concrete.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Mid-Ohio Scaper;619907 said:


> If it's a concrete paver, then most likely the same thing that happens to concrete.


We've never had problems with salt on new concrete or pavers, as long as you only apply after shovelling or plowing. If you try to melt an accumulation of snow and it doesn't complety melt it,, it's the freeze and thaw cycle that screws the cement and that will happen with just about any product. As far as CMA 100, it won't melt crap anyways, I've used it and it's far too expensive and it does very little. Use a very light coating of straight sand if need if your really worried, that's what I used on my pattern concrete the first year.at my house. JMO


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mid-Ohio Scaper;619907 said:


> If it's a concrete paver, then most likely the same thing that happens to concrete.


Is salt harmful to landscape pavers?


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

Mid-Ohio Scaper;619725 said:


> hey Todd,
> Your little factoid about Obama is interesting, being from Illinois and since he's a senator there should we the rest of the country be scared??? Because as a business owner I can't help but be scared of this "spread the wealth around" talk.


The factoid pretty much sums it up. A Chameleon that has mastered the art of campaigning, and catapulting your way up the political ladder. He actually accomplished nothing of any meaning as an IL state senator. Scary part is no one really knows how this guy is going to perform. Kinda like the ass kisser on the boat going from cook to captain in 8 years, and now he is going to supposed to drive the ship threw treacherous waters.
If you believe in the right to bear arms, he is a gun grabber for sure. He shares his views with Gov. Daley, no one deserves the right to bear arms except for elitist's for protection. Concealed carry will be history.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

I'm ok with a hijack, but all the political crap needs to be in it's own thread or forum. :crying:


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