# Plow Free Rumour



## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

I've heard rumours of a snow contractor who maintains his sites only using chemicals. Does anyone know if this is true and if so, any details?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Brad3403 said:


> I've heard rumours of a snow contractor who maintains his sites only using chemicals. Does anyone know if this is true and if so, any details?


Ahhh yes the one you speak of does exist, but fare not none shall speakith thy name on this board...


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

LOL!!!!!!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Brad3403 said:


> I've heard rumours of a snow contractor who maintains his sites only using chemicals. Does anyone know if this is true and if so, any details?


Must be a "low snow" area...and he's an idiot.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Its true!

Besides chemicals he has an army of laborers with very long extension cords , each toting one of these babies...

It's the "green deal" of the future for snow removal


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Must be a "low snow" area...and he's an idiot.


Hey now...…. just because someone thinks outside the box doesn't make them an idiot all the time...… they could be pioneers in innovation.....


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I've plowed free for years...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> I've plowed free for years...


Marriage is free?????????????????????


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Brad3403 said:


> I've heard rumours of a snow contractor who maintains his sites only using chemicals. Does anyone know if this is true and if so, any details?


I know that guy. I actually trained him. He is the site manager servicing a Ford plant right down the street. He can salt away any accumulation under 5". It's an art form blowing through hundreds of tons of salt on one site. All of the subs that I hired for the job complain about it because they never get plowing hours.

That is the norm and protocol on that site. I ruined him. He will never be able to salt normal sites because he doesn't know what normal salting is.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Luther said:


> I know that guy. I actually trained him. He is the site manager servicing a Ford plant right down the street. He can salt away any accumulation under 5". It's an art form blowing through hundreds of tons of salt on one site. All of the subs that I hired for the job complain about it because they never get plowing hours.
> 
> That is the norm and protocol on that site. I ruined him. He will never be able to salt normal sites because he doesn't know what normal salting is.


Sounds like a real moron... Maybe you rode him to hard about burning up cutting edges so figured this was a way to make them last...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Actually, there is (at least) one company locally that has been referred to as a "salt selling company". Not all customers are happy about it. The comment was made that they will salt 3 times to prevent having to plow. Former customer of theirs.

I know they plow, but I have seen them salting a lot covered with 4" of snow and still snowing. I saw them salting an outlet mall that was closed due to the "Polar Vortex" and still snowing. 

These types of contractors will force us to be regulated and\or licensed to apply salt, just like pesticides. There goes our costs.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> These types of contractors will force us to be regulated and\or licensed to apply salt, just like pesticides. There goes our costs.


With smart bartenders like O-C running "the show", you can be sure that this will become a reality.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> .
> 
> View attachment 190394


She needs to cut back on the Starbucks and Red Bull's, her eyes look like they're going to pop oot of the socket.


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## NYH1 (Jan 10, 2009)

BUFF said:


> She needs to cut back on the Starbucks and Red Bull's, *her eyes look like they're going to pop oot of the socket.*


One can sure hope!

NYH1.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Well she proved she hates big business, and jobs. She helped chase Amazon out of NY. She wants no internal combustion engines, just electric. That will work well for clearing snow from roads.


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## NYH1 (Jan 10, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> Well she proved she hates big business, and jobs. She helped chase Amazon out of NY. She wants no internal combustion engines, just electric. That will work well for clearing snow from roads.


She wants every building in this country to be either renovated to be made energy efficient or knocked down and rebuilt. Of course she has no concern at all as to where the money is going to come from this. She's from a different planet.

NYH1.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

NYH1 said:


> She wants every building in this country to be either renovated to be made energy efficient or knocked down and rebuilt. Of course she has no concern at all as to where the money is going to come from this. She's from a different planet.
> 
> NYH1.


I think she spent too much time in outer space without a suit on and the lack of oxygen has killed off more brain cells than @LapeerLandscape 's fireball could ever kill.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I think she spent too much time in outer space without a suit on and the lack of oxygen has killed off more brain cells than @LapeerLandscape 's fireball could ever kill.


Which one of these 2 was it.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Which one of these 2 was it.
> View attachment 190447


Dear Lord. I'm somehow related to her through my wife's family....

Ugh..


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Dear Lord. I'm somehow related to her through my wife's family....
> 
> Ugh..


WHAT??????


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Dear Lord. I'm somehow related to her through my wife's family....
> 
> Ugh..


I most certainly would not have posted that on the interweb for all to see...


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## NYH1 (Jan 10, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I most certainly would not have posted that on the interweb for all to see...


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Actually, there is (at least) one company locally that has been referred to as a "salt selling company". Not all customers are happy about it. The comment was made that they will salt 3 times to prevent having to plow. Former customer of theirs.
> 
> I know they plow, but I have seen them salting a lot covered with 4" of snow and still snowing. I saw them salting an outlet mall that was closed due to the "Polar Vortex" and still snowing.
> 
> These types of contractors will force us to be regulated and\or licensed to apply salt, just like pesticides. There goes our costs.


This outlet mall? Check out the floor in the Nike store - these were taken today.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I most certainly would not have posted that on the interweb for all to see...


Yup. Brother in law and sister in law..

Definitely related


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

framer1901 said:


> This outlet mall? Check out the floor in the Nike store - these were taken today.
> 
> View attachment 190450
> 
> ...


Is that site serviced by an ISO certified company?


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

framer1901 said:


> This outlet mall? Check out the floor in the Nike store - these were taken today.
> 
> View attachment 190450
> 
> ...


That's unbelievable. No one in the store ever heard of a thing called a mop?

Hint: it's not able to fit in your back pocket nor can you do sexting with it


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Is that site serviced by an ISO certified company?


Yes it is...they even have a CSP or two on staff.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

framer1901 said:


> This outlet mall? Check out the floor in the Nike store - these were taken today.
> 
> View attachment 190450
> 
> ...


I was next door moving snow, didn't realize it was that bad.

Holy overapplication batman...


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

It ain’t just the driving lanes, they didn’t miss a square inch!


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> That's unbelievable. No one in the store ever heard of a thing called a mop?
> 
> Hint: it's not able to fit in your back pocket nor can you do sexting with it


They could mop it every hour and it's still look like that, the sidewalks are worse than the lot - you just can't see it as good cause of color


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes it is...they even have a CSP or two on staff.


Do as I say, not as I do...

https://snellersnowsystems.com/snow-removal-company-save-property-managers-money/


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Well, if a water pipe breaks inside, at least the floor will not freeze.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

framer1901 said:


> They could mop it every hour and it's still look like that, the sidewalks are worse than the lot - you just can't see it as good cause of color


And they're majorly proud of their sidewalk management on that site. I remember a video floating around specifying using that site as an example, and maybe it was even a case study on sidewalk snow management.


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## White_Gold11 (Jan 4, 2016)

I don’t see that ever in my area.. what a waste of salt, life, time, eco system, I could probably go on..


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

John_DeereGreen said:


> And they're majorly proud of their sidewalk management on that site. I remember a video floating around specifying using that site as an example, and maybe it was even a case study on sidewalk snow management.


I didn't look while I was there but last year they had a bunch of ssv's Sitting there. It'd certainly be a difficult site to manage the walks with for sure - especially the snowfall times we've had this season.

Is that a labor lacking issue, customer choice issue or just a method issue? This last deal wasn't that bad for us at least


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

framer1901 said:


> This outlet mall? Check out the floor in the Nike store - these were taken today.
> 
> View attachment 190450
> 
> ...


So I assume you didn't wear your new Jordan's out then...?


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## Brndnstffrd (Mar 8, 2013)

John_DeereGreen said:


> And they're majorly proud of their sidewalk management on that site. I remember a video floating around specifying using that site as an example, and maybe it was even a case study on sidewalk snow management.


But I thought salt eats concrete...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Brndnstffrd said:


> But I thought salt eats concrete...


Only hungry salt.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

My neighbor was out with a bag of table salt treating his steps after he couldn't find any ice melt in town. Worked pretty good actually...


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## GrassManKzoo (Oct 8, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Actually, there is (at least) one company locally that has been referred to as a "salt selling company". Not all customers are happy about it. The comment was made that they will salt 3 times to prevent having to plow. Former customer of theirs.
> 
> I know they plow, but I have seen them salting a lot covered with 4" of snow and still snowing. I saw them salting an outlet mall that was closed due to the "Polar Vortex" and still snowing.
> 
> These types of contractors will force us to be regulated and\or licensed to apply salt, just like pesticides. There goes our costs.


Does it start with a D and end with Js because I've seen that down ere too


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

GrassManKzoo said:


> Does it start with a D and end with Js because I've seen that down ere too


The company in question has been linked to in this thread...


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

John clearly states being ISO certified doesn't make a company a better snow and ice manager. We all know this is true. The local ISO company around here has shown that over and over that they are not better than anyone else, even though they continue to try and embarrass their competitors with their ridiculous us vs them photo campaign. Only through bravado, boasting and talk are they better than anyone else.


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## GrassManKzoo (Oct 8, 2016)

“If you drive around after a snowstorm and you see white pavement, that’s indicative of over application of product,” said John Allin, SIMA founder & snow industry consultant


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Luther said:


> John clearly states being ISO certified doesn't make a company a better snow and ice manager. We all know this is true. The local ISO company around here has shown that over and over that they are not better than anyone else, even though they continue to try and embarrass their competitors with their ridiculous us vs them photo campaign. Only through bravado, boasting and talk are they better than anyone else.


This is absolutely correct. All ISO means is that you or your secretary are good at doing paper work and has very little to do with a companies work ethic.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Very close. Actually, what it means is that you have established QMS (Quality management systems) that are checked, verified and approved through a third party auditor. Yes this is mostly just paperwork, written policies and procedures, ongoing training, company manual’s, etc. Which is likely more than what many companies already do.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Luther said:


> John clearly states being ISO certified doesn't make a company a better snow and ice manager. We all know this is true. The local ISO company around here has shown that over and over that they are not better than anyone else, even though they continue to try and embarrass their competitors with their ridiculous us vs them photo campaign. Only through bravado, boasting and talk are they better than anyone else.


I agree...You probably should stop those us verses them photos...While your at it you probably should stop purchasing overseas salt...


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

You all do understand by mentioning the inventor of Snow and Ice managements name it enrages Mark....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> You all do understand by mentioning the inventor of Snow and Ice managements name it enrages Mark....


It does???


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Defcon 5 said:


> I agree...You probably should stop those us verses them photos...While your at it you probably should stop purchasing overseas salt...


I don't do or endorse us vs them bs. People send me that stuff from them and two other local companies and I just shake my head.

Be thankful you have any salt to abuse the environment with.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Luther said:


> Very close. Actually, what it means is that you have established QMS (Quality management systems) that are checked, verified and approved through a third party auditor. Yes this is mostly just paperwork, written policies and procedures, ongoing training, company manual's, etc. Which is likely more than what many companies already do.


I live the world of ISO certification daily, we have 2 certifications 9001:2016 which is for manufacturing and 13485:2016 which is for manufacturing medical devices. In addition to that we're also UL registered, ITAR registered and have a class 7 FFL.
Most people think ISO is a way to regulate how you do business which it is in a sense but the company not an outside party writes the procedures. There are certain standards that each ISO certification requires and as long as you meet those standards in you procedures it's pretty easy too write the procedures to work with how you do business. As you said most companies have established procedures/process they use they're just not formally documented.
Many large company's require all vendors, suppliers and contractors to be ISO certified per their QSM. As silly as this may sounds it's a reality.
When a vendor, supplier or contractor has quality issues a formal Corrective Action is issued and the receiving party typically has a month to investigate the route cause , show internal corrective actions have been issued, preventive actions in place and a containment plan put in place.
We have a full time regulatory person on staff that handles all this stuff and he's always bizzie. We have two audits a year for our ISO cert which run three days each for what's called surveillance audits, every three years we have a recertification audit that is a week long.
We also get audited by existing and potential customers probably 2-3 times a month. When we're not being audited by someone outside we have our own internal audits that have to be done throughout the year per our QSM.
The BATF for the FFL is a real treat too, we've never had a findings/issue since only certain people are allowed to work on those projects but I'm sure there will be something overlooked, it's just a matter of time.
If I had to put a cost on maintaining our certifications it's probably in the $500k per year range.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Buff, I am absolutely impressed! You describe ISO and the entire process perfectly. SN 9001 is exactly the same. From a ping to correct action, to the surveillance audit and the recertification audit every three years. Specific to SN 9001 there also must be a field audit of 5% of your sites (or only 5 sites) you service within 48 hours of the conclusion of a weather event. 

You briefly touched on how easy it is for a company to create their own policies and procedures on how the company does business. So true. I think what most people don’t realize is that it’s mulch easier and less costly for a smaller company to achieve their iso-certification than it is for a large company.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Luther said:


> Buff, I am absolutely impressed! You describe ISO and the entire process perfectly. SN 9001 is exactly the same. From a ping to correct action, to the surveillance audit and the recertification audit every three years. Specific to SN 9001 there also must be a field audit of 5% of your sites (or only 5 sites) you service within 48 hours of the conclusion of a weather event.
> 
> You briefly touched on how easy it is for a company to create their own policies and procedures on how the company does business. So true. I think what most people don't realize is that it's mulch easier and less costly for a smaller company to achieve their iso-certification than it is for a large company.


Since you've been involved with it, what would you put as a cost range to become certified the first time?


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## NYH1 (Jan 10, 2009)

BUFF said:


> I live the world of ISO certification daily, we have 2 certifications 9001:2016 which is for manufacturing and 13485:2016 which is for manufacturing medical devices. In addition to that we're also UL registered, ITAR registered and have a class 7 FFL.
> Most people think ISO is a way to regulate how you do business which it is in a sense but the company not an outside party writes the procedures. There are certain standards that each ISO certification requires and as long as you meet those standards in you procedures it's pretty easy too write the procedures to work with how you do business. As you said most companies have established procedures/process they use they're just not formally documented.
> Many large company's require all vendors, suppliers and contractors to be ISO certified per their QSM. As silly as this may sounds it's a reality.
> When a vendor, supplier or contractor has quality issues a formal Corrective Action is issued and the receiving party typically has a month to investigate the route cause , show internal corrective actions have been issued, preventive actions in place and a containment plan put in place.
> ...


Yeah, I worked for a manufacture that had QS9000. You hit the nail right on the head. We told our customers that we would check this, this , this and that. The QS9000 audit basically went back and made sure we did what we said we would do.

NYH1.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Since you've been involved with it, what would you put as a cost range to become certified the first time?


That's a broad question, lots of variables. But not as much as you might think. You can't hold me to this, but I believe a smaller well-oiled, managed and organized company with 70%-80% of what is required already in place in some manor (policy manual, employee handbook, safety manual, policies and procedures manual, training, sales, management and procurement processes, etc. etc) plus bringing in an outside company and paying them for maybe two days of work to get everything in place, I bet you could get through it for 10 to 15 grand. Large companies have a much more difficult time going through the entire process to achieve their ISO cert.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Luther said:


> That's a broad question, lots of variables. But not as much as you might think. You can't hold me to this, but I believe a smaller well-oiled, managed and organized company with 70%-80% of what is required already in place in some manor (policy manual, employee handbook, safety manual, policies and procedures manual, training, sales, management and procurement processes, etc. etc) plus bringing in an outside company and paying them for maybe two days of work to get everything in place, I bet you could get through it for 10 to 15 grand. Large companies have a much more difficult time going through the entire process to achieve their ISO cert.


Yes, I'm aware it was a broad question. Was just curious for a ball park. I really don't see it as being any more than marketing in the snow industry, as any company capable of achieving it should have most if not all the bones in place anyway.

Thanks for the info. Was more to satisfy my curiosity than anything.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Luther said:


> That's a broad question, lots of variables. But not as much as you might think. You can't hold me to this, but I believe a smaller well-oiled, managed and organized company with 70%-80% of what is required already in place in some manor (policy manual, employee handbook, safety manual, policies and procedures manual, training, sales, management and procurement processes, etc. etc) plus bringing in an outside company and paying them for maybe two days of work to get everything in place, I bet you could get through it for 10 to 15 grand. Large companies have a much more difficult time going through the entire process to achieve their ISO cert.


Many years ago went thru it for the first time in a large company - I'd guess that guess is pretty close. I'd think you dedicate someone about three months worth of work over the year, maybe a tad more - no idea what an outside firm costs.

I sort of remember the outside firm doing a test audit making sure we'd pass the real thing and helping train our internal auditors - then our internal auditors just dealt with it - not sure on the three year thing though.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

What I'd like to know is who audits the damn weather forecasters, 1" my ass, maybe 1" every hour for five or six gets you a touch closer.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I really don't see it as being any more than marketing in the snow industry, as any company capable of achieving it should have most if not all the bones in place anyway.


ISO certification in any industry is not just marketing. I think you missed the point.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

BUFF said:


> I live the world of ISO certification daily, we have 2 certifications 9001:2016 which is for manufacturing and 13485:2016 which is for manufacturing medical devices. In addition to that we're also UL registered, ITAR registered and have a class 7 FFL.
> Most people think ISO is a way to regulate how you do business which it is in a sense but the company not an outside party writes the procedures. There are certain standards that each ISO certification requires and as long as you meet those standards in you procedures it's pretty easy too write the procedures to work with how you do business. As you said most companies have established procedures/process they use they're just not formally documented.
> Many large company's require all vendors, suppliers and contractors to be ISO certified per their QSM. As silly as this may sounds it's a reality.
> When a vendor, supplier or contractor has quality issues a formal Corrective Action is issued and the receiving party typically has a month to investigate the route cause , show internal corrective actions have been issued, preventive actions in place and a containment plan put in place.
> ...


I completely understand iso certification in the manufacturing business....but for plowing snow & spreading salt, give me a break.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

plow4beer said:


> I completely understand iso certification in the manufacturing business....but for plowing snow & spreading salt, give me a break.


I'm ISO certified in Beer Drinking


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Luther said:


> That's a broad question, lots of variables. But not as much as you might think. You can't hold me to this, but I believe a smaller well-oiled, managed and organized company with 70%-80% of what is required already in place in some manor (policy manual, employee handbook, safety manual, policies and procedures manual, training, sales, management and procurement processes, etc. etc) plus bringing in an outside company and paying them for maybe two days of work to get everything in place, I bet you could get through it for 10 to 15 grand. Large companies have a much more difficult time going through the entire process to achieve their ISO cert.


Ya, that sounds real affordable for a small business....why is it that I only see the "big" companies doing this? Considering it's so much more affordable for a "smaller" company to do?

I will speak for what I have seen in regards to The SIMA movement, just like when it came around...all the big talkers hopped on board and still did poop work even after becoming a member...no one gives a rats behind if your SIMA member\iso Certification/ blah blah blah....what matters is how you perform...the idiots will fail, the hard working guy that uses common sense and good ethics will succeed...let the market decide. Next thing you know they'll have a snowblowers Union


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Defcon 5 said:


> I'm ISO certified in Beer Drinking


The standards were set by me


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Luther said:


> ISO certification in any industry is not just marketing. I think you missed the point.


In the snow and ice industry I just have a hard time seeing the benefit of it. Not saying it isn't worth it by any means because there are companies spending a large amount of money to do it.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

John_DeereGreen said:


> In the snow and ice industry I just have a hard time seeing the benefit of it. Not saying it isn't worth it by any means because there are companies spending a large amount of money to do it.


But it's more affordable for smaller companies?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

plow4beer said:


> But it's more affordable for smaller companies?


I get what Luther is saying. The total cost is smaller because there are less large pieces to the puzzle to get in place. I guess everyone has to define "affordable" for themselves but it does make perfect sense that the smaller one is the less it would cost to go through the process.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I get what Luther is saying. The total cost is smaller because there are less large pieces to the puzzle to get in place. I guess everyone has to define "affordable" for themselves but it does make perfect sense that the smaller one is the less it would cost to go through the process.


So why aren't you iso certified then?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

plow4beer said:


> The standards were set by me


Pretty low standards


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Defcon 5 said:


> Pretty low standards


Agreed....you made it through


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

plow4beer said:


> So why aren't you iso certified then?


Perhaps I don't have the vision that snow companies that are certified have.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Perhaps I don't have the vision that snow companies that are certified have.


Based on the photos/companies attached to this thread, Perhaps I don't either


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Luther said:


> Buff, I am absolutely impressed! You describe ISO and the entire process perfectly. SN 9001 is exactly the same. From a ping to correct action, to the surveillance audit and the recertification audit every three years. Specific to SN 9001 there also must be a field audit of 5% of your sites (or only 5 sites) you service within 48 hours of the conclusion of a weather event.
> 
> You briefly touched on how easy it is for a company to create their own policies and procedures on how the company does business. So true. I think what most people don't realize is that it's mulch easier and less costly for a smaller company to achieve their iso-certification than it is for a large company.


There's a lot more layers to the onion as I assume you know...…
We have aboot 100 System Procedures and each has supporting documents, forms, etc..... Within the company each department "own's" SP's and everything tied to the them and everyone within the department had to be trained.
The shelf life of most SP's is pretty limit and as new methods / processes are being introduced they need to be updated. 
If you're not evolving with continuous improvement initiatives you're not seeing the growth potential you could be. Every time there's been a change in a SP or supporting documents everyone needs to be trained.
Some auditors hone in on the revision date and what changed. One auditor told me when he see's no revisions or long periods of time/years between revisions he typically finds nonconformance issue's within those SP's.
We've been ISO certified since '97. The reason for getting certified was due to request of current or potential customers due to how their own QMS is written. Looking back it was the right thing today and still is today due to the amount of business it brings and it also helps in how your business does what it does with one of the benefits is reduced waste and more to the bottom line. 
It can get a little over the top if you let it and it's best to keep the scope of it limited to what you're currently doing. You can always add to when needed.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Since you've been involved with it, what would you put as a cost range to become certified the first time?


A buddy got his 4man machine shop ISO Registered aboot 6yrs ago and it cost him about $12k. There is a yearly cost associated to being registered which is typically .25-1% of you're gross annual income depending on how big your scope is. 
Yearly cost are:
Bi-annual Registrar audits
Registrar admin cost
Internal audit cost
Internal admin cost
Internal corrective action cost
Internal training cost

But this cost opens doors to opportunity's that wouldn't be there without being registered.

I will say it's not for every business and the market's they're in.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> I completely understand iso certification in the manufacturing business....but for plowing snow & spreading salt, give me a break.


I thought the same thing initially. I thought ISO was strictly for manufacturing prior to this. There are several other service related industries that are ISO, so why not the snow removal business? Minimizing snow and ice management responsibilities and operations in such a litigious world is kind of crazy to me.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> Ya, that sounds real affordable for a small business....why is it that I only see the "big" companies doing this? Considering it's so much more affordable for a "smaller" company to do?


You'll have to answer your own question. Plenty of smaller companies out there that are ISO/SN 9001 certified. Maybe they consider the expense an investment in themselves.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Look, nobody is pushing certification on anybody. It’s your own choice whether you want to learn things, get tested on your comprehension and get certified in anything no matter what it is you do. 

And on the other hand just because you’re certified doesn’t mean you’re great at what you do. Same thing goes for a college education. Just cause you have one doesn’t mean you’re that good at anything.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Just because you have a license doesn’t mean you’re a good driver. Just because you have kids doesn’t mean you’re a good parent. The list goes on and on when you want to knock achievements no matter what they might be.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Luther said:


> Just because you have a license doesn't mean you're a good driver. Just because you have kids doesn't mean you're a good parent. The list goes on and on when you want to knock achievements no matter what they might be.


You need to settle down....Leave the getting riled up to Oomkes


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Luther said:


> I thought the same thing initially. I thought ISO was strictly for manufacturing prior to this. There are several other service related industries that are ISO, so why not the snow removal business? Minimizing snow and ice management responsibilities and operations in such a litigious world is kind of crazy to me.


I didn't think it was strictly for manufacturing, but to me it makes much more sense in that industry.....I agree about minimizing risk, that's why I have/pay an attorney and carry ins, etc etc....and yes you will tell me it'll reduce those costs, but right now it won't, and what little it potentially could is going to be spent on being certified and then some anyway....I don't need anymore regulations, the states/feds are regulating the crap out of us as it is.

I have a problem, because the pushers behind this would like to see it be a requirement to plow snow & throw salt....that will be a rich get richer / poor get poorer scenario imo.

I would exit out at that point, Snow is not my primary income...I'm guessing it's proabbly all you do? And you run a sizable company, right? so by implementing these requirements to plow snow, you get guys like me that just say "fudge it" and get out, you eliminate the small guys that are trying to come up and can't afford all these certs and time/investment it takes. This allows you to gobble up more work and force the smaller guy to come work for you?



Luther said:


> You'll have to answer your own question. Plenty of smaller companies out there that are ISO/SN 9001 certified. Maybe they consider the expense an investment in themselves.


"Plenty" is proabably a fraction of a fraction (at best) of all the smaller snow companies in the US alone.

I guess I'm just very skeptical from watching this come about over the last few yrs...


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Luther said:


> Just because you have a license doesn't mean you're a good driver. Just because you have kids doesn't mean you're a good parent. The list goes on and on when you want to knock achievements no matter what they might be.


I agree


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

One of the alleged benefits of becoming certified was a savings on liability insurance. But if liability insurance doesn't even cost someone $10k a year, but it costs $10-15k to become certified it makes that cost hard to swallow.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> One of the alleged benefits of becoming certified was a savings on liability insurance. But if liability insurance doesn't even cost someone $10k a year, but it costs $10-15k to become certified it makes that cost hard to swallow.


It would take me the rest of my life to offset 10-15k in certification costs, and that's if my insurance company totally did away with charging me for the snow removal portion of my policy.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> Snow is not my primary income...I'm guessing it's proabbly all you do? And you run a sizable company, right? so by implementing these requirements to plow snow, you get guys like me that just say "fudge it" and get out, you eliminate the small guys that are trying to come up and can't afford all these certs and time/investment it takes. This allows you to gobble up more work and force the smaller guy to come work for you?.


 Snow is not all we do. Snow is actually a minor part of what we do. My boss lets me do snow to humor me. Sizable is relative.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Luther said:


> Snow is not all we do. Snow is actually a minor part of what we do. My boss lets me do snow to humor me. Sizable is relative.


Don't be coy, TCL would be considered a large company by most...either way, maybe one day we will meet and you can try and convince me to become iso certified.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

plow4beer said:


> Ya, that sounds real affordable for a small business....why is it that I only see the "big" companies doing this? Considering it's so much more affordable for a "smaller" company to do?
> 
> I will speak for what I have seen in regards to The SIMA movement, just like when it came around...all the big talkers hopped on board and still did poop work even after becoming a member...no one gives a rats behind if your SIMA member\iso Certification/ blah blah blah....what matters is how you perform...the idiots will fail, the hard working guy that uses common sense and good ethics will succeed...let the market decide. Next thing you know they'll have a snowblowers Union


Very well said. Your certification should be your work ethics that your customer sees and not a piece of paper.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> Don't be coy, TCL would be considered a large company by most...either way, maybe one day we will meet and you can try and convince me to become iso certified.


 FYI I haven't worked for him for four years.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

So what if Johns snow removal (large company) gets 20 wally worlds because he's ISO certified then he subs out half of them to smaller companies not certified. The smaller companies couldnt get the jobs directly but yet they are doing the work.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Luther said:


> FYI I haven't worked for him for four years.


My bad....And now that you say that, I remembered that from the udder site


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

LapeerLandscape said:


> So what if Johns snow removal (large company) gets 20 wally worlds because he's ISO certified then he subs out half of them to smaller companies not certified. The smaller companies couldnt get the jobs directly but yet they are doing the work.


Then Jarrett's Snow Removal get's their 30% for admin cost and site monitoring.....


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Very informative ! Always wondered what those banners hanging on several of my clients buildings were for! Just thought it had something to do with getting government defense contracts.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

There's an addage...follow the money. 

Who benefits from these certifications?


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## STARSHIP (Dec 18, 2000)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Actually, there is (at least) one company locally that has been referred to as a "salt selling company". Not all customers are happy about it. The comment was made that they will salt 3 times to prevent having to plow. Former customer of theirs.
> 
> I know they plow, but I have seen them salting a lot covered with 4" of snow and still snowing. I saw them salting an outlet mall that was closed due to the "Polar Vortex" and still snowing.
> 
> These types of contractors will force us to be regulated and\or licensed to apply salt, just like pesticides. There goes our costs.


Salt ethics must not be a part of the ISO90018200000 audit process.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

BUFF said:


> Then Jarrett's Snow Removal get's their 30% for admin cost and site monitoring.....


Sounds like I'm well on my way to becoming a national then!


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Sounds like I'm well on my way to becoming a national then!


Wood appear so......


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## Brad3403 (Sep 8, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Actually, there is (at least) one company locally that has been referred to as a "salt selling company". Not all customers are happy about it. The comment was made that they will salt 3 times to prevent having to plow. Former customer of theirs.
> 
> I know they plow, but I have seen them salting a lot covered with 4" of snow and still snowing. I saw them salting an outlet mall that was closed due to the "Polar Vortex" and still snowing.
> 
> These types of contractors will force us to be regulated and\or licensed to apply salt, just like pesticides. There goes our costs.


Are they using liquid anti-icer and de-icer? Or just spreading salt?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Brad3403 said:


> Are they using liquid anti-icer and de-icer? Or just spreading salt?


The claim is made that they anti-police but I haven't seen one of their trucks with s sprayer on the road in several years.

I believe they claim to use special mixes depending on conditions. This year they have at least one spreader with prewet tanks. Prior to that they were spreading untreated rock salt.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.


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## Too Stroked (Jan 1, 2010)

I once explained ISO (and similar) certification programs to a customer as _"Say what you do, do what you say - every time."_ At that level, it's pretty hard to argue with. The question then becomes, how much money are you willing to spend to make that happen. And remember, certification programs like this are a bonanza for consultants.

Getting back to snow plowing and salting quality and the relationship to ISO certification, let me share another story. I work at a marina and Bayliner was the very first manufacturer to achieve ISO certification in the industry. (For those of you that don't know boats, Bayliner is the Harbor Freight of the boating industry.)

At the local boat show that year, the marina across from us that sold Bayliners had numerous signs proclaiming the certification and suggesting that it meant that they (now) produced the highest quality boats in the industry. After using the above description of what ISO certification really was on a customer, he asked me what that meant for Bayliner boats. _"It means that every one of them is now crap instead of just most of them"_ I replied. Does that make more sense now?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

*Bayliner is the Harbor Freight of the boating industry
*
Nice reference Thumbs Up


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Do as I say, not as I do...
> 
> https://snellersnowsystems.com/snow-removal-company-save-property-managers-money/


In the past, the standard rule of thinking was to use 1,000 pounds of rock salt per acre of pavement. However, through proper education and a close examination of this thinking, snow contractors have learned they only need 150-300 pounds of rock salt per acre to reduce ice to water. That's a huge savings and boost for our eco-system! Professionally educated snow and ice management companies will save your company money by using less rock salt.

Been doing this for years now. 
If I went with the 1,000 pound figure I would go thru over a 100 yards of product every year. 
Been more sanding than plowing this year and have gone thru 28 yards and last year was about 45 yards of product.

But part of the problem is educating the client, a lot of places insist on having bare pavement no matter what with zero tolerance which accounts for those pictures as you need to put down a lot of product to get there.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

150-300 pounds is unrealistic except under ideal conditions. 

Stopped snowing, zero hardpack, no ice, temps in the 20's, and plenty of time before opening. 

More of JAA's bovine excrement.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

MSsnowplowing said:


> In the past, the standard rule of thinking was to use 1,000 pounds of rock salt per acre of pavement. However, through proper education and a close examination of this thinking, snow contractors have learned they only need 150-300 pounds of rock salt per acre to reduce ice to water.





MSsnowplowing said:


> But part of the problem is educating the client, a lot of places insist on having bare pavement no matter what with zero tolerance which accounts for those pictures as you need to put down a lot of product to get there.


If you need to educate the client because they insist on having bare pavement and you need to put down a lot of product to get there then 150-300 lbs per acre doesn't work....

You can't claim that 150-300 lbs per acre reduces ice to to water, and then say that in order to get a bare lot you have to put down a lot of product


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

STARSHIP said:


> Salt ethics must not be a part of the ISO90018200000 audit process.


Correct. Part of the process is that snow and ice management contractors use deicers in the attempt to keep hard surfaces safe. When creating the written industry standards and SN 9001 in conjunction with ISO the committee purposely did not address or wish to set deicing guidelines or restrictions. It is not their place to do so. They are not big brother.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> 150-300 pounds is unrealistic except under ideal conditions.
> 
> Stopped snowing, zero hardpack, no ice, temps in the 20's, and plenty of time before opening.
> 
> More of JAA's bovine excrement.


Not even sure "3 bags" of salt would cover a acre. I thought i was on the low end.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Mudly said:


> Not even sure "3 bags" of salt would cover a acre. I thought i was on the low end.


Maybe if your chasing puddles in that acre - it'd have to be dry powdery fluff and even then....


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> You can't claim that 150-300 lbs per acre reduces ice to to water, and then say that in order to get a bare lot you have to put down a lot of product


Yes, but the inventor of snow said otherwise



Luther said:


> Correct. Part of the process is that snow and ice management contractors use deicers in the attempt to keep hard surfaces safe. When creating the written industry standards and SN 9001 in conjunction with ISO the committee purposely did not address or wish to set deicing guidelines or restrictions. It is not their place to do so. They are not big brother.


So are you, or the company you work for, ISO certified ?


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> If you need to educate the client because they insist on having bare pavement and you need to put down a lot of product to get there then 150-300 lbs per acre doesn't work....
> 
> You can't claim that 150-300 lbs per acre reduces ice to to water, and then say that in order to get a bare lot you have to put down a lot of product


My mistake, I should have put quotation marks around that, it comes from this article

https://snellersnowsystems.com/snow-removal-company-save-property-managers-money/

And what I said;

But part of the problem is educating the client, a lot of places insist on having bare pavement no matter what with zero tolerance which accounts for those pictures as you need to put down a lot of product to get there.

I was referring to the previous pictures posted that someone else oversalted.

It's winter, it's snowy, it's icy, and the yeah the only way to have a zero tolerance is to oversalt.

Do I oversalt? no I do not

What we need is a federal bill limiting lawsuits for slip and falls during winter for all states.

Then you wouldn't see that oversalting going on.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

MSsnowplowing said:


> My mistake, I should have put quotation marks around that, it comes from this article
> 
> https://snellersnowsystems.com/snow-removal-company-save-property-managers-money/
> 
> ...


Slip lawsuits are pretty limited, at least in my region. I dont think its a federal concern. Generally the judge assesses the scope of work and puts responsibility of there on safety on the plaintiff. Total negligence has to be proven. Just dont let your clients know that lol


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

plow4beer said:


> So are you, or the company you work for, ISO certified ?


An individual cannot be iso certified. Only companies can be designated that. I have a couple different certifications. The company I work for is not ISO or SN certified. Although the certifications we have as a company are pretty unique. Even more difficult to get than iso. We are a certified DBE with MDOT prequal.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I had an epiphany...150-300# does work...if you're selling applications. Underapply and have to return multiple times to get bare pavement.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Luther said:


> An individual cannot be iso certified. Only companies can be designated that. I have a couple different certifications. The company I work for is not ISO or SN certified. Although the certifications we have as a company are pretty unique. Even more difficult to get than iso. We are a certified DBE with MDOT prequal.


k


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