# seasonal question



## vmj

doing a first time seasonal contract since that's what customer wants. wondering if you include salt in pricing or is it a separate billing per application.? Thanks


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## 1olddogtwo

Do you have unlimited salt, cuz they'll want it if it's within a seasonal contract without a cap/application.


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## vmj

I'm thinking billing separate for salt ? not sure if that's the way to go or just word it that's a salting after each storm is included.


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## Freshwater

You can do it both ways. 
Seasonal price for plowing, with salt billed per app.
This is a great way to do it.
Or
Seasonal all inclusive price.
This is also a great way to do it, but you must be spot on with your numbers, averages, totals, etc.


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## vmj

Freshwater said:


> You can do it both ways.
> Seasonal price for plowing, with salt billed per app.
> This is a great way to do it.
> Or
> Seasonal all inclusive price.
> This is also a great way to do it, but you must be spot on with your numbers, averages, totals, etc.


Thanks.


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## vmj

vmj said:


> Thanks.


Not sure how I want to do it. Prob per salting..


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## cjames808

Be spot on as you can and pick one.

I see some who have hourly or per only and they complain the most about having bad years/contracts. 

Always mix it up with seasonal and per pricing, we have a good mix of the two.


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## Broncslefty7

I do salt once per storm, more than once is a billable extra at X dollars per applications.


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## fireside

Mine are all capped 10 applications. After that they are billed per application


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## FredG

Seasonal I only have done all inclusive. You want to put 8 to 10 extra salt trips to your bid. Anything under your trigger the snow wizards are going to want salt on seasonal. Seasonal clients tend to be demanding. Or cap it as OD suggested.


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## vmj

Broncslefty7 said:


> I do salt once per storm, more than once is a billable extra at X dollars per applications.


this is the way I'm thinking of pricing it.. I'm sure he doesn't want to pay any extra.... been tough to deal with already...


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## Arrowbrook99

vmj said:


> doing a first time seasonal contract since that's what customer wants. wondering if you include salt in pricing or is it a separate billing per application.? Thanks


Don't do seasonal anything. Unless your on the money i always felt odds are in the customers favor. Bill per plow and salt separate. That's my opinion.


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## kimber750

Arrowbrook99 said:


> Don't do seasonal anything. Unless your on the money i always felt odds are in the customers favor. Bill per plow and salt separate. That's my opinion.


And how do you make out on those light seasons when us seasonal guys are









Properly bid/writing seasonal contract will always make money, even in the worst winters.


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## vmj

Arrowbrook99 said:


> Don't do seasonal anything. Unless your on the money i always felt odds are in the customers favor. Bill per plow and salt separate. That's my opinion.


I agree all my accounts are like that this guy is insisting on paying this way.. wanted a sept to sept contract to......


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## Broncslefty7

I was always taught seasonals should be three year contracts. 1 light year 1 heavy year 1 ok year so it all evens out


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## FredG

Broncslefty7 said:


> I was always taught seasonals should be three year contracts. 1 light year 1 heavy year 1 ok year so it all evens out


This is correct, Unfortunately it don't work that way on most seasonal but is coming around now. You got a better shot averaging out good in 3 then one.


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## John_DeereGreen

Seasonals are paying for an average season. You're betting it's average or below, they're betting it's average or above. 

From a revenue standpoint, yes, you will sometimes come out behind for a single season. However, even with 2 back to back winters that were double our average snowfalls, we have never lost money on a seasonal account. I wouldn't be in the industry without them.


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## FredG

John_DeereGreen said:


> Seasonals are paying for an average season. You're betting it's average or below, they're betting it's average or above.
> 
> From a revenue standpoint, yes, you will sometimes come out behind for a single season. However, even with 2 back to back winters that were double our average snowfalls, we have never lost money on a seasonal account. I wouldn't be in the industry without them.


Of course your a Landscaper and young. Construction biz is a little different. We got construction contractors here that shut right down basically except the office, Around here the big Landscapers are the big dogs in snow and Ice.

We get lucky and pick up a HOA, APT complex, etc because we maintain the Water, Storm, Sanitary, Concrete, black top and pick up I nice snow contract. My Landscape friends are very interested in the big seasonal. My company I'm not bidding nothing. The snow work I have is good with me earning wise. Boys in Rochester were spreading this morning.


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## Arrowbrook99

kimber750 said:


> And how do you make out on those light seasons when us seasonal guys are
> View attachment 174494
> 
> 
> Properly bid/writing seasonal contract will always make money, even in the worst winters.


That advice was for someone not that experienced in bidding contracts. You said it yourself. PROPERLY bid can make you money. Make a mistake and you can lose a lot. Much harder to screw yourselve charging per job. That's why i advised him the way i did. Obviously you have much more experience so that will work for you.


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## kimber750

Arrowbrook99 said:


> That advice was for someone not that experienced in bidding contracts. You said it yourself. PROPERLY bid can make you money. Make a mistake and you can lose a lot. Much harder to screw yourselve charging per job. That's why i advised him the way i did. Obviously you have much more experience so that will work for you.


You are telling OP not do what the the client wants. There is no sure fire way not to get screwed in snow removal other than not to do snow removal. Even with per push you still have costs prior to ever seeing a snow flake. Just watch this site and see all the equipment that "worked fine" when put away and now doesn't.


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## Arrowbrook99

kimber750 said:


> You are telling OP not do what the the client wants. There is no sure fire way not to get screwed in snow removal other than not to do snow removal. Even with per push you still have costs prior to ever seeing a snow flake. Just watch this site and see all the equipment that "worked fine" when put away and now doesn't.


Are we talking about the same thing?


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## Broncslefty7

i have a chain of 12 accounts all owned by the same guy. we normally get around 65". after the first year of per inch contracts with him he asked for a seasonal contract for five years. i said sure, divide what you paid last year by how many stores there are and how many months you want to pay over. The previous year we got 89 inches! :weightlifter: that turned out to be an awesome seasonal because in the three years after that we got 22 inches, 51 inches and 55 inches.


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## MSsnowplowing

90% seasonal, 10% per storm.

I like to set it up this way so my per storm pays all my expensives. 

So far knock on wood has been working great for going on 10 years that I have been doing it this way. 

You really need to know your average snowfall to make a seasonal work and also your expensives on a per storm basis.

How much is labor, gas, product etc...

So if you get say 10 storms and each storm cost you a average of $4,000 that's $40,000 your cost.

So a seasonal bid that costs you $40,000, you should be bidding a bit higher than that to make a profit.


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## vmj

MSsnowplowing said:


> 90% seasonal, 10% per storm.
> 
> I like to set it up this way so my per storm pays all my expensives.
> 
> So far knock on wood has been working great for going on 10 years that I have been doing it this way.
> 
> You really need to know your average snowfall to make a seasonal work and also your expensives on a per storm basis.
> 
> How much is labor, gas, product etc...
> 
> So if you get say 10 storms and each storm cost you a average of $4,000 that's $40,000 your cost.
> 
> So a seasonal bid that costs you $40,000, you should be bidding a bit higher than that to make a profit.


thank you


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## JMHConstruction

kimber750 said:


> Just watch this site and see all the equipment that "worked fine" when put away and now doesn't.


:waving:


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## ktfbgb

Arrowbrook99 said:


> Are we talking about the same thing?


Yes he is. Why would you not want to have enough seasonal contracts to cover all your maintenance, insurance, expendables, salt etc. for the season? If you have a mix of both, with enough seasonal to cover expenses then you literally have covered your operating costs before any snow flies, without spending a dime of your own money. You are financing all your costs with other people's money. If you aren't pushing to get to this, then you need to be.


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## kimber750

Arrowbrook99 said:


> Are we talking about the same thing?


Pretty sure. For me per push doesn't make sense. If OP know what he is doing he will be fine, no reason to be afraid of doing a seasonal contract.


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## Arrowbrook99

ktfbgb said:


> Yes he is. Why would you not want to have enough seasonal contracts to cover all your maintenance, insurance, expendables, salt etc. for the season? If you have a mix of both, with enough seasonal to cover expenses then you literally have covered your operating costs before any snow flies, without spending a dime of your own money. You are financing all your costs with other people's money. If you aren't pushing to get to this, then you need to be.


Agree with you 100%. I was just giving my opinion from the angle he wasn't sure how to change for a seasonal. If you low ball a one time deal it's not that bad. But if you low ball for a season it's a big loss. I guess i may have misunderstood his question.


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> Yes he is. Why would you not want to have enough seasonal contracts to cover all your maintenance, insurance, expendables, salt etc. for the season? If you have a mix of both, with enough seasonal to cover expenses then you literally have covered your operating costs before any snow flies, without spending a dime of your own money. You are financing all your costs with other people's money. If you aren't pushing to get to this, then you need to be.


There is good and bad to seasonal as well as per push. If your company is one that can not make the winter season financially yes it's great. If your in the Excavating biz (example) most can make the winter financially if want or choose to.

At my age I don't like the demands from the snow wizards it's almost you got to run your business by the way they want you to. They know your collecting a check every month work or not and will cry about unreasonable service.

I'm happy with my per push accounts. The money I earn I'm happy with and I don't have to be on edge of some wizard bothering me. I have accounts that went from seasonal to per push. Guess what, When there paying you every time you show up somehow there way of thinking and demands goes away. Wally worlds and big company's are not the only way to make money. Bid away you won't have to worry about me.

It's like being on salary and working 100 hrs a week for 40 hrs pay. I been fired off enough seasonal to know what I'm talking about. If I wanted to be shoved or muscled around by someone I would go get a job. Frankly I wouldn't put up with it when I was working. Stand back and let me do my job or we must part.


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## Broncslefty7

i took on our first apartment complex this year on a seasonal account. normally we stick to larger industrial places but i have my old bobcat 751 just sitting around and its pretty bullet proof so i said why not.....

after signing and meeting with them, the demands and directions started. i told the guy in these exact words. "Go inside, im the snow removal contractor and im going to handle this lot exactly how i see fit." i havnt heard from him in a week.... but we just got our first check lol.


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## FredG

Broncslefty7 said:


> i took on our first apartment complex this year on a seasonal account. normally we stick to larger industrial places but i have my old bobcat 751 just sitting around and its pretty bullet proof so i said why not.....
> 
> after signing and meeting with them, the demands and directions started. i told the guy in these exact words. "Go inside, im the snow removal contractor and im going to handle this lot exactly how i see fit." i havnt heard from him in a week.... but we just got our first check lol.


Some will back off when you set them straight. Others won't. Good for you.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> There is good and bad to seasonal as well as per push. If your company is one that can not make the winter season financially yes it's great. If your in the Excavating biz (example) most can make the winter financially if want or choose to.
> 
> At my age I don't like the demands from the snow wizards it's almost you got to run your business by the way they want you to. They know your collecting a check every month work or not and will cry about unreasonable service.
> 
> I'm happy with my per push accounts. The money I earn I'm happy with and I don't have to be on edge of some wizard bothering me. I have accounts that went from seasonal to per push. Guess what, When there paying you every time you show up somehow there way of thinking and demands goes away. Wally worlds and big company's are not the only way to make money. Bid away you won't have to worry about me.
> 
> It's like being on salary and working 100 hrs a week for 40 hrs pay. I been fired off enough seasonal to know what I'm talking about. If I wanted to be shoved or muscled around by someone I would go get a job. Frankly I wouldn't put up with it when I was working. Stand back and let me do my job or we must part.


I love my per service accounts. I have residential customers on seasonal. My commercial is not. The residential customers literally pay for all the snow side of the business expenses up front. I try to separate my contracting from snow at least on the financial side. The snow side has to pay for itself and then make me profit. So having those couple seasonal residential folks paying for all the maintenance, materials, added cost
Of snow insurance etc. before the season ever starts is a huge plus for me. That way there is no burden on the rest of the biz, and everything is paid for regardless of how much snow we get that winter. I like it. ThAt way I know that every check from snow after that only needs to pay labor to shovelers, pay me, and then hopefully put aside money for upgrading the snow works.


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## Broncslefty7

yeah, i personally think you should get paid for the work you do, and the majority of what we have is per inch. however two years ago we had a freak winter and got 23 inches. so i went out and got a couple seasonals and now we are banking about 90k in seasonal work which pretty much covers all of our expense for the entire snow operation up until about 45 inches, then the per inch stuff covers the rest.


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## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> I love my per service accounts. I have residential customers on seasonal. My commercial is not. The residential customers literally pay for all the snow side of the business expenses up front. I try to separate my contracting from snow at least on the financial side. The snow side has to pay for itself and then make me profit. So having those couple seasonal residential folks paying for all the maintenance, materials, added cost
> Of snow insurance etc. before the season ever starts is a huge plus for me. That way there is no burden on the rest of the biz, and everything is paid for regardless of how much snow we get that winter. I like it. ThAt way I know that every check from snow after that only needs to pay labor to shovelers, pay me, and then hopefully put aside money for upgrading the snow works.


With the snow amounts you get per trip would be the only way I would go.
We can't collect prepaid seasonal accounts anymore because of the Guys in jail running the scams lol. 6 - 8'' storm 2'' trigger make 4 trip with the salt trips is a pretty good pay day.


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## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> With the snow amounts you get per trip would be the only way I would go.
> We can't collect prepaid seasonal accounts anymore because of the Guys in jail running the scams lol. 6 - 8'' storm 2'' trigger make 4 trip with the salt trips is a pretty good pay day.


That's why only my resi accounts are seasonal. And if you remember I only take on clients that are second and third homes for the residential side. I clear them the day after the snow stops. Doing it this way I only service the residintials between 6-10 times a season at an average time 30-45 min per service since i clear all the snow at once. My minimum seasonal price on a standard two car driveway, 40 feet long is $1000.00 per season. So it works out good for me, with little risk because they get serviced so little.


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## MSsnowplowing

FredG said:


> With the snow amounts you get per trip would be the only way I would go.
> We can't collect prepaid seasonal accounts anymore because of the Guys in jail running the scams lol. 6 - 8'' storm 2'' trigger make 4 trip with the salt trips is a pretty good pay day.


What?
how are guys in jail running the scams?
What scams?
Tell us more


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## ktfbgb

MSsnowplowing said:


> What?
> how are guys in jail running the scams?
> What scams?
> Tell us more


Same thing as a lot of guys running around as unlicensed contractors around here. They collect half or all the money up front, and then bail. Never to be seen or heard of again. I'm talking like $50,000.00 up front deposit for a construction job, then poof they vanish.


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## FredG

MSsnowplowing said:


> What?
> how are guys in jail running the scams?
> What scams?
> Tell us more


They collect $500.00 seasonal driveways up front 35 or 40 of them and disappear with $20K. Till They get caught up with. Last season I know of 3 of them. This is NY lot of dishonest running around. They go in elderly neighborhoods.


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## MSsnowplowing

FredG said:


> They collect $500.00 seasonal driveways up front 35 or 40 of them and disappear with $20K. Till They get caught up with. Last season I know of 3 of them. This is NY lot of dishonest running around. They go in elderly neighborhoods.


That's low they are scumbags to do that


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## Broncslefty7

Reminds me of NSP's....


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## FredG

MSsnowplowing said:


> That's low they are scumbags to do that


Ya say the least, This behavior is not law abiding.


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## JMHConstruction

ktfbgb said:


> Same thing as a lot of guys running around as unlicensed contractors around here. They collect half or all the money up front, and then bail. Never to be seen or heard of again. I'm talking like $50,000.00 up front deposit for a construction job, then poof they vanish.


I actually lost customers after the news started covering bad contractors for what seemed like forever (whatever gets the views I guess). Had to change my deposits. Went from getting 50% at signing, to 25% at signing and 25% the morning that the crew shows.

These f-tards put honest contractors out of work, because a lot of people won't put more than 10%. I don't want to be a bank, so I'm not going to finance your job. I'm getting 50% before one board is nailed up, take it or leave it.


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## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> I actually lost customers after the news started covering bad contractors for what seemed like forever (whatever gets the views I guess). Had to change my deposits. Went from getting 50% at signing, to 25% at signing and 25% the morning that the crew shows.
> 
> These f-tards put honest contractors out of work, because a lot of people won't put more than 10%. I don't want to be a bank, so I'm not going to finance your job. I'm getting 50% before one board is nailed up, take it or leave it.


There is a lot to be said about dishonest and honest contractors. A tree Guy got my Mother it was her own fault. One of my silver backs and myself found him two towns over and hooked up to his stump grinder simple pinto hook.

Had my Mothers paid invoice and told him to give me cash or it's going with me and had my nephew the cop there. Paid up made some excuse he was busy. Getting a deposit here in NY is like pulling teeth if your not a well known contractor.


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## Arrowbrook99

Speaking of dishonesty. I don’t like to jump the gun on things but did any of you guys notice that island snow guy that was advertising for workers and ask for some personal business information never posted anything further after guys started joking with him,myself included. Like i said i don’t like to jump the gun on things but just seems strange to ask for information like that and then disappear. And he only had a total of two messages posted.


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## JMHConstruction

Arrowbrook99 said:


> Speaking of dishonesty. I don't like to jump the gun on things but did any of you guys notice that island snow guy that was advertising for workers and ask for some personal business information never posted anything further after guys started joking with him,myself included. Like i said i don't like to jump the gun on things but just seems strange to ask for information like that and then disappear. And he only had a total of two messages posted.


Happens every year. Management companies come on here and post a free ad and never return. Never gets any business that I've seen, unless people are emailing or calling without commenting about it.


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## JustJeff

MSsnowplowing said:


> 90% seasonal, 10% per storm.
> 
> I like to set it up this way so my per storm pays all my expensives.
> 
> So far knock on wood has been working great for going on 10 years that I have been doing it this way.
> 
> You really need to know your average snowfall to make a seasonal work and also your expensives on a per storm basis.
> 
> How much is labor, gas, product etc...
> 
> So if you get say 10 storms and each storm cost you a average of $4,000 that's $40,000 your cost.
> 
> So a seasonal bid that costs you $40,000, you should be bidding a bit higher than that to make a profit.


No way in hell am I doing 90% seasonal. That's leaving too much on the table for me, especially on a heavy snow year. I'm more than 50% now and want to scale that back as well. I'd be happy at 40%.


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## Broncslefty7

60/40 is a healthy mix. I keep all my subs seasonal.


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## ponyboy

My area and my customers want seasonal for budget reasons 
Granted there are always overages due to number of storms amount is salt blizzards snow stacking etc 
So yes my contracts all have limits I'm not in business to loose money or even break even I'm in business to make money


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## JustJeff

ponyboy said:


> My area and my customers want seasonal for budget reasons
> Granted there are always overages due to number of storms amount is salt blizzards snow stacking etc
> So yes my contracts all have limits I'm not in business to loose money or even break even I'm in business to make money


Understood, and agree. However I'm a sub. And a seasonal to me, isn't the same as a seasonal to the owner of the company. Of course he has caps on his seasonals, but those don't extend to me. For me, they're either a win or lose situation depending on the year.


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## ponyboy

Sorry I missed that my subs get strictly hourly


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## JustJeff

ponyboy said:


> Sorry I missed that my subs get strictly hourly


Most do. I'll never work hourly again. I'd go back to holding my own contracts before I worked hourly again.


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## FredG

ponyboy said:


> My area and my customers want seasonal for budget reasons
> Granted there are always overages due to number of storms amount is salt blizzards snow stacking etc
> So yes my contracts all have limits I'm not in business to loose money or even break even I'm in business to make money


Ya that's what they claim budget reasons, From my experience they want seasonal because they think they come out better or sick the snow wizards on you. I switched a few to per trip that wanted me to plow them only cause I do there summer repairs and they are very happy. The snow wizards don't like it because they can't be in control and make your life miserable. Pay me when I work, No one pays me in the summer months without working and that's the way I like it. They can call me whenever they want, I know one thing I'm getting paid. Your phone don't ring when there on per trip if your doing your job.

The Hospital just went per trip I never bothered with it because it was seasonal and a young friend of mine had it. I'm afraid if I knew they went per trip I might to have stepped on his toes. Not wanting to do seasonal is just me, Do what you got to do. I'm passing unless I know someone in high places where they can get there wizards off me. I don't need anybody's money unless I work.


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## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> I actually lost customers after the news started covering bad contractors for what seemed like forever (whatever gets the views I guess). Had to change my deposits. Went from getting 50% at signing, to 25% at signing and 25% the morning that the crew shows.
> 
> These f-tards put honest contractors out of work, because a lot of people won't put more than 10%. I don't want to be a bank, so I'm not going to finance your job. I'm getting 50% before one board is nailed up, take it or leave it.


If People were smart enough to check the Contractor out and make sure he has insurance, WC and any required licensing this would not happen. Your going to hire some gypsy this is what happens. Last year they found one in Florida, They had to go get him but he is in jail.


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## Broncslefty7

It’s not illegal to make money, and if it makes dollars it makes sense...... :dancing:


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## FredG

Broncslefty7 said:


> It's not illegal to make money, and if it makes dollars it makes sense...... :dancing:


Ya if it's not illegal lol. If I wanted to chance a sentence with Tyrone we could all have nice earnings. lol ponzi schemes work well.


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## Broncslefty7

lol true. you know what i mean though. its not illegal to make straight legit money. i had a pool customer this year ask me to trim the fat on a price for a safety pool cover. i told him the only way for me to do that would be to let him go to another company... he laughed and handed me the deposit. Customers like honesty.


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## FredG

Broncslefty7 said:


> lol true. you know what i mean though. its not illegal to make straight legit money. i had a pool customer this year ask me to trim the fat on a price for a safety pool cover. i told him the only way for me to do that would be to let him go to another company... he laughed and handed me the deposit. Customers like honesty.


I got to have my fat and meat left on the bone, Yes hit them between the eyes with honesty, Shows character instead of like some smoke blowing vendor.


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## Broncslefty7

they seem to like it. i have quite a few people we will do handshake deals on and ive never had a problem. but you can tell as soon as you answer the phone who that is. something about their voice and choice of select key words.


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## ponyboy

I need to move 
Nothing can be done with out a written contract 
My insurance over sees every contract for snow and they have to sign off on it before They accept it
Now landscaping I've done many job by handshakes


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## Broncslefty7

that sucks, i dont think my insurance company has ever asked to see a contract. then again ive never needed them to clean up a mess so idk.


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## John_DeereGreen

FredG said:


> Ya that's what they claim budget reasons, From my experience they want seasonal because they think they come out better or sick the snow wizards on you. I switched a few to per trip that wanted me to plow them only cause I do there summer repairs and they are very happy. The snow wizards don't like it because they can't be in control and make your life miserable. Pay me when I work, No one pays me in the summer months without working and that's the way I like it. They can call me whenever they want, I know one thing I'm getting paid. Your phone don't ring when there on per trip if your doing your job.
> 
> The Hospital just went per trip I never bothered with it because it was seasonal and a young friend of mine had it. I'm afraid if I knew they went per trip I might to have stepped on his toes. Not wanting to do seasonal is just me, Do what you got to do. I'm passing unless I know someone in high places where they can get there wizards off me. I don't need anybody's money unless I work.


When you have a good contract, and stick to your guns, it doesn't matter how often they call. If it's not within scope, you are not obligated to do it, and there is nothing they can do if you don't.

Our seasonal contracts are just like our per push contracts except the rates, and customers do get told no or that they will be billed extra if they are asking for something that is out of scope.


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## FredG

ponyboy said:


> I need to move
> Nothing can be done with out a written contract
> My insurance over sees every contract for snow and they have to sign off on it before They accept it
> Now landscaping I've done many job by handshakes


They can want to see contracts, I been lucky with that. The only thing they asked me not to do 24 hour big grocery stores. That was 8 yrs ago. I never had a incident so they might let me now, I'm not saying anything tho I don't want them looking at me without my audit.


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## FredG

John_DeereGreen said:


> When you have a good contract, and stick to your guns, it doesn't matter how often they call. If it's not within scope, you are not obligated to do it, and there is nothing they can do if you don't.
> 
> Our seasonal contracts are just like our per push contracts except the rates, and customers do get told no or that they will be billed extra if they are asking for something that is out of scope.


There snow wizards do not know the meaning of scope of work lol. Or a productive way to move snow. Please I been fired off 2 of them. I wanted to leave with my first conflict with the guy. I was advised to be fired.

I own my equipment I don't care if it sits all winter for I put up with them games. I don't like anybody telling how and when to do my job on seasonal. Per trip call me 10 times a day I'll be there in need of service or not.


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## MSsnowplowing

JustJeff said:


> No way in hell am I doing 90% seasonal. That's leaving too much on the table for me, especially on a heavy snow year. I'm more than 50% now and want to scale that back as well. I'd be happy at 40%.


You really have to know your snow fall total for it work.

Plus for any snow storm over 12 inches they pay extra for it to cover extra costs that occur for that.


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## JustJeff

MSsnowplowing said:


> You really have to know your snow fall total for it work.
> 
> Plus for any snow storm over 12 inches they pay extra for it to cover extra costs that occur for that.


I know our snowfall totals as well as anybody possibly can. It's still weather after all.


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## JMHConstruction

MSsnowplowing said:


> You really have to know your snow fall total for it work.
> 
> Plus for any snow storm over 12 inches they pay extra for it to cover extra costs that occur for that.


I feel that if both you and the customer agree on price and service, you shouldn't charge them extra, unless they call with a demand that's not in your contract (i.e. remove snow off site after large storm). Do you give money back for below average storms or winters?

How would you feel as a customer if (using my snow totals locally) we agreed on a price every month for a season, but in 2011-'12 when we got double our average snowfall (44") the contractor demanded you pay more (Ok, well it's in the contract). But in both '15-'16 and '16-'17 when we only got 5" and 2" you don't get money back. You paid more because the contractor covered his ass, but now you as the customer get ripped off with light years.

If you sign a contract stating you will clear snow for $X all season, do it. If you want to charge more because it snowed more, do a per push contract. Just my opinion, and not trying to attack you or anything. I also have never had seasonal, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I was per push and raked in the money when the snow never seemed to stop, and ate my shoe laces the last few years. It's how it works. I get we're here to make a profit, but I just don't feel you can or should double charge a customer because you had more snow than normal.


----------



## ponyboy

If you get into a car accident every week or month isn't your car insurance gonna increase 
That's what we are to commercial sites we are their insurance that they will be open to make money and their place will be safe for its employees so if Mother Nature something no one can control or predict dumps more snow and ice then the set amount where we feel is a break even point aka our contract states why shouldn't u charge more 
Show me other businesss that do extra work and lose money 
So if u have 3 bad years in a row you will still be in business 
We deal with nature and stupid people neither which we can control hard to nail down an exact price we can give an educated guess but when we are wrong we should get more money for when it snows exasive


----------



## John_DeereGreen

We carry snowfall insurance that covers us in an above average single snowfall event, and for an above average season. I believe the event is 12+ inches in 24 hours, and season is greater than 30% above average.


----------



## Arrowbrook99

ponyboy said:


> If you get into a car accident every week or month isn't your car insurance gonna increase
> That's what we are to commercial sites we are their insurance that they will be open to make money and their place will be safe for its employees so if Mother Nature something no one can control or predict dumps more snow and ice then the set amount where we feel is a break even point aka our contract states why shouldn't u charge more
> Show me other businesss that do extra work and lose money
> So if u have 3 bad years in a row you will still be in business
> We deal with nature and stupid people neither which we can control hard to nail down an exact price we can give an educated guess but when we are wrong we should get more money for when it snows exasive


You have some good points but i think it's a double edged soared. No right or wrong. There is a big gray area. What ever works for you and the customers. I personally prefer to do per push work. For me it's easier that way. No headaches. But that's just me. If I️ had a big overhead and this was my only winter income i might think differently. On a personal note i gotta ask.is the outsiders one of your favorite movies?


----------



## ponyboy

We have blizzard clause 
But I like your 30% above average 
Would u describe what happens if u do have a bad winter what do u get


----------



## ponyboy

When u do per push do u take money for machines left on site 
With out upfront money seasonal it would be tough for me to service all equipment buy all material 
I have a tough time telling people it's $x to have a loaded on site but at same time


----------



## Defcon 5

John_DeereGreen said:


> We carry snowfall insurance that covers us in an above average single snowfall event, and for an above average season. I believe the event is 12+ inches in 24 hours, and season is greater than 30% above average.


Interesting....Who are these derivatives through??..... "Low" snow areas such as yourself..you think you would be hedging your derivatives towards the low end...Such as last year....


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Arrowbrook99 said:


> Don't do seasonal anything. Unless your on the money i always felt odds are in the customers favor. Bill per plow and salt separate. That's my opinion.


It might work for you, but your opinion is wrong in other regions.

If the customer is realistic, I have no problem with an all inclusive contract as long as it's at least 3 years.

Your advice is short sighted and borderline ignorant.


----------



## ponyboy

Nick name is not from movie 
But it's stuck with me for over 20 years


----------



## John_DeereGreen

Defcon 5 said:


> Interesting....Who are these derivatives through??..... "Low" snow areas such as yourself..you think you would be hedging your derivatives towards the low end...Such as last year....


We've been heavy on seasonals the last 2 years. 2 years ago it didn't pay off. Last year we did receive a little bit, because we switched monitoring stations to Akron canton airport. It's from Spectrum Weather insurance. Not sure who the actual carrier is.


----------



## Broncslefty7

why dont we group up to make a bullet proof seasonal contract. we all have good ideas, if we group up to make a nice document that we can all use, it should help everyone in the end. i may have something you dont in yours thats good and you may have something i dont in yours. then we can kind of set a standard to seasonals. we will be like the AoPGCP (Association of Plow Guy Contract Pros) lol. :terribletowel:


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Arrowbrook99 said:


> Agree with you 100%. I was just giving my opinion from the angle he wasn't sure how to change for a seasonal. If you low ball a one time deal it's not that bad. But if you low ball for a season it's a big loss. I guess i may have misunderstood his question.


Except his customer was requesting a seasonal.

If your customer requests a lawn installation and you give him a pacer patio, what do you think the customer will do?


----------



## MSsnowplowing

JMHConstruction said:


> I feel that if both you and the customer agree on price and service, you shouldn't charge them extra, unless they call with a demand that's not in your contract (i.e. remove snow off site after large storm). Do you give money back for below average storms or winters?
> 
> How would you feel as a customer if (using my snow totals locally) we agreed on a price every month for a season, but in 2011-'12 when we got double our average snowfall (44") the contractor demanded you pay more (Ok, well it's in the contract). But in both '15-'16 and '16-'17 when we only got 5" and 2" you don't get money back. You paid more because the contractor covered his ass, but now you as the customer get ripped off with light years.
> 
> If you sign a contract stating you will clear snow for $X all season, do it. If you want to charge more because it snowed more, do a per push contract. Just my opinion, and not trying to attack you or anything. I also have never had seasonal, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I was per push and raked in the money when the snow never seemed to stop, and ate my shoe laces the last few years. It's how it works. I get we're here to make a profit, but I just don't feel you can or should double charge a customer because you had more snow than normal.


Ponyboy summed it up pretty well.

Here's my take:

I know my snow fall totals from 2006 and every year it is different for my area, we have ranged from 18" up to 72"

The first six years only 1 major snow storm -(over 12"), then we got one each year for 4 years then for the last 2 nothing.

I agree with you per push can make you more money in the good seasons.

In the last seven years, 4 seasons went over my estimated snowfall total and 3 went under it, so my seasonal clients saved some money on 4 those seasons and I made extra money on 3 seasons.

Thing about seasonal contracts is you have to think long term, 3-5 year contracts and it evens out for both the client and the contractor.

As for blizzards, well it's like I tell my clients, I don't factor them into my pricing because you never know if we will get one or two for the year and if we don't you save money.
But if we do, then I charge x amount per inches over 15 because of the additional work done.

Let's put it this way, if a roofing guy comes to your house to put in gutters at say $2,000.00 and finds the eves are all rotted out and they need to be replaced, you will be paying for that extra work based on how much wood needs to be replaced and the additonal time it takes him to do it.

Same thinking for blizzards.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

JustJeff said:


> I know our snowfall totals as well as anybody possibly can. It's still weather after all.


Amen to that brother, you never really know what mother nature is going to throw at us.

But just once can't she throw skittles at us


----------



## MSsnowplowing

John_DeereGreen said:


> We carry snowfall insurance that covers us in an above average single snowfall event, and for an above average season. I believe the event is 12+ inches in 24 hours, and season is greater than 30% above average.


How much does it cost you per season for said insurance and what happens if you get less snow?


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Nevermind


----------



## Arrowbrook99

I


Mark Oomkes said:


> It might work for you, but your opinion is wrong in other regions.
> 
> If the customer is realistic, I have no problem with an all inclusive contract as long as it's at least 3 years.
> 
> Your advice is short sighted and borderline ignorant.


ts just that. It works for me. But that's for your opinion.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

Broncslefty7 said:


> why dont we group up to make a bullet proof seasonal contract. we all have good ideas, if we group up to make a nice document that we can all use, it should help everyone in the end. i may have something you dont in yours thats good and you may have something i dont in yours. then we can kind of set a standard to seasonals. we will be like the AoPGCP (Association of Plow Guy Contract Pros) lol. :terribletowel:


This is my formal contract, had a lawyer look it over and give it the okay -(For CT, if your in another state some of it may not be okay, suggest you have your lawyer look it over)


----------



## John_DeereGreen

MSsnowplowing said:


> How much does it cost you per season for said insurance and what happens if you get less snow?


It's all based on snowfall averages and totals, and what we want the payout per inch to be so without disclosing all of that, telling you the cost does no good. It's minimal compared to revenue, and the cost of not having it in a major event or heavy season.

It's just like an all inclusive seasonal account except the opposite...less snow than average the insurance company wins, more snow than average we as the contractor win.


----------



## Defcon 5

John_DeereGreen said:


> It's all based on snowfall averages and totals, and what we want the payout per inch to be so without disclosing all of that, telling you the cost does no good. It's minimal compared to revenue, and the cost of not having it in a major event or heavy season.
> 
> It's just like an all inclusive seasonal account except the opposite...less snow than average
> 
> the insurance company wins, more snow than average we as the contractor win.


How long have you had the insurance and when was the last time the policy paid out since you only hedging for a Higher than normal snow 
year?


----------



## Defcon 5

John_DeereGreen said:


> It's all based on snowfall averages and totals, and what we want the payout per inch to be so without disclosing all of that, telling you the cost does no good. It's minimal compared to revenue, and the cost of not having it in a major event or heavy season.
> 
> It's just like an all inclusive seasonal account except the opposite...less snow than average
> 
> the insurance company wins, more snow than average we as the contractor win.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

John_DeereGreen said:


> It's all based on snowfall averages and totals, and what we want the payout per inch to be so without disclosing all of that, telling you the cost does no good. It's minimal compared to revenue, and the cost of not having it in a major event or heavy season.
> 
> It's just like an all inclusive seasonal account except the opposite...less snow than average the insurance company wins, more snow than average we as the contractor win.


It would be interesting to see what they think my average snow fall is each year.

Thinking about it if you want to know your average snowfall and can't find totals then call them and ask about the insurance.

Then they will tell you what your average snow fall is


----------



## John_DeereGreen

John_DeereGreen said:


> We've been heavy on seasonals the last 2 years. 2 years ago it didn't pay off. *Last year we did receive a little bit, because we switched monitoring stations to Akron canton airport.* It's from Spectrum Weather insurance. Not sure who the actual carrier is.





Defcon 5 said:


> How long have you had the insurance and when was the last time the policy paid out since you only hedging for a Higher than normal snow
> year?


See bold in previous post. This coming/current winter will be season number 3 with it. For the last 2 seasons we're about 5k ahead of the premiums paid. Doesn't sound like, and isn't a lot, but its not meant to provide revenue, it's meant to cover the costs of a heavy storm or season.


----------



## John_DeereGreen

MSsnowplowing said:


> It would be interesting to see what they think my average snow fall is each year.
> 
> Thinking about it if you want to know your average snowfall and can't find totals then call them and ask about the insurance.
> 
> Then they will tell you what your average snow fall is


You can set the payout triggers to whatever you want, also. So even if your average season is 50", you can set the payout to be anything over 25" and you pick whatever amount you want to be paid per inch over the 25" limit. But the closer you get to your average, or the higher the dollars per inch amount is, the higher the premium.


----------



## Maclawnco

John_DeereGreen said:


> See bold in previous post. This coming/current winter will be season number 3 with it. For the last 2 seasons we're about 5k ahead of the premiums paid. Doesn't sound like, and isn't a lot, but its not meant to provide revenue, it's meant to cover the costs of a heavy storm or season.


You paid money to receive a $5k benefit on what, a claimed million in snow? Who gives a rip about $5k. Thats an accounting error in my opinion. Something doesnt add up here Jarrett.

Why dont i fly up and get Todd and Mark, and the 3 of us can fly down and tour your 2 shops and learn from you, if things are as you say they are. Ill even cover the av gas and will buy us all lunch.


----------



## Defcon 5

Can I bring Beer on your plane???...


----------



## Mike_PS

ok, as I've mentioned before...if you can't have a decent, civil discussion with another member then either use the ignore feature or just DON'T interact with each other

thanks


----------



## JMHConstruction

MSsnowplowing said:


> Thing about seasonal contracts is you have to think long term, 3-5 year contracts and it evens out for both the client and the contractor.


Except if your the customer, you don't break even at all. If you get a light year, you get screwed because you essentially paid for something that wasn't used. If you get a heavy year, the contractor charges extra and you still lose.


MSsnowplowing said:


> Let's put it this way, if a roofing guy comes to your house to put in gutters at say $2,000.00 and finds the eves are all rotted out and they need to be replaced, you will be paying for that extra work based on how much wood needs to be replaced and the additonal time it takes him to do it.
> 
> Same thinking for blizzards.


But if the contractor says it will be all the gutters, and then added the gutters up wrong, that's on him.

I'm not saying I wouldn't do it, and I don't think anyone is wrong by doing it. It just feel the whole "it all eventually evens out" thought doesn't apply, since there's nothing to even out. Contractor has no risk, just the customers.

I get that it's an unforseen event, and I would probably add it to the contract. Just showing my point of view on it from a different prospective.


----------



## Randall Ave

Miss Grandview, he was the king of seasonal.


----------



## JustJeff

Randall Ave said:


> Miss Grandview, he was the king of seasonal.


Agreed. I remember him posting pictures of him sitting outside by a bonfire saying "this is how you make money on seasonals"!


----------



## ktfbgb

JMHConstruction said:


> Except if your the customer, you don't break even at all. If you get a light year, you get screwed because you essentially paid for something that wasn't used. If you get a heavy year, the contractor charges extra and you still lose.
> 
> But if the contractor says it will be all the gutters, and then added the gutters up wrong, that's on him.
> 
> I'm not saying I wouldn't do it, and I don't think anyone is wrong by doing it. It just feel the whole "it all eventually evens out" thought doesn't apply, since there's nothing to even out. Contractor has no risk, just the customers.
> 
> I get that it's an unforseen event, and I would probably add it to the contract. Just showing my point of view on it from a different prospective.


I agree. I give my customers a seasonal price for normal service. Normal service for us would be plowing snow, doing sidewalks, putting ice melt on walks. I give them a seasonal price for that and never ask for more even if we get multiple storms over 24" like last year. I outline that extra service outside of normal would be an extra charge like hauling snow per the customers request. But i dont charge extra for normal operations no matter how much snow we get, thats the whole point of seasonal.


----------



## kimber750

I have always looked at seasonal as snow insurance for the client. They are paying a set price monthly like car insurance but even car insurance has a cap. Same for seasonal, they pay for a standard protection but like with auto insurance, abnormal circumstances sometimes happens that insurance doesn't cover that event. I have been paying for auto insurance since I was 16 and have yet to ever make a claim.

Per push is pretty much the client being self insured. They have no idea what their costs will be on when they are coming.


----------



## FredG

Well if your contracts got limits and add on the client should get a break on a light snowfall year. I'm confused, It appears to me some want to do seasonal but don't want the risk. Seasonal is a risk for the Contractor and the client. The light years that granview was bragging about the client pays out money monthly with minimal to no work performed and takes a beating. On a heavy snowfall year the contractor could take a beating.

If I was looking for a contractor to service my property I wouldn't pay no limits unless I got a kick back when the contractor is not working. I guess the meaning of seasonal is changing.


----------



## Defcon 5

That is why you try to avoid one year seasonal contracts...3 or more years...Law of averages


----------



## Mike NY

There is a hybrid system which is a combo of both seasonal and per push that might work for some. Monthly readiness fee plus reduced rate for services. Covers overhead on a light year and you get paid for every service.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

When I did more per push, I had a minimum of 10 pushes. That way they covered all of my expenses for that account. And the likelihood we don't push at least 10 times is nil.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Never had issues with "snow wizards" telling me how to do my job. I do what I am contracted to do, they leave me alone. They don't ask for more than what the contract calls for, possibly because I overdeliver whenever I can. 

Do we make mistakes? Yep, but we fix them. And apologize.


----------



## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Never had issues with "snow wizards" telling me how to do my job. I do what I am contracted to do, they leave me alone. They don't ask for more than what the contract calls for, possibly because I overdeliver whenever I can.
> 
> Do we make mistakes? Yep, but we fix them.
> 
> And apologize.


You Apologize????.....Or someone other than you does???


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> You Apologize????.....Or someone other than you does???


Mind your own bobber......and drink some kosher prune juice.


----------



## Broncslefty7

i think theres minimum service seasonals and then full service seasonals. i have some customers who want the bare minimum and then will pay the extras if needed. then on the other hand i have full service contracts that could be 50% more, but they wont pay an extra penny unless there is stacking or hauling involved. it all depends on the customer.


----------



## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Mind your own bobber......and drink some kosher prune juice.


Two glasses down....Heading to the office with newspaper tucked under arm


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Never had issues with "snow wizards" telling me how to do my job. I do what I am contracted to do, they leave me alone. They don't ask for more than what the contract calls for, possibly because I overdeliver whenever I can.
> 
> Do we make mistakes? Yep, but we fix them. And apologize.


These snow wizards around here are low payed :terribletowel:and will do anything to think they have authority and suck up to the boss. Of course my attitude probably don't help matters much lol.


----------



## kimber750

FredG said:


> Well if your contracts got limits and add on the client should get a break on a light snowfall year. I'm confused, It appears to me some want to do seasonal but don't want the risk. Seasonal is a risk for the Contractor and the client. The light years that granview was bragging about the client pays out money monthly with minimal to no work performed and takes a beating. On a heavy snowfall year the contractor could take a beating.
> 
> If I was looking for a contractor to service my property I wouldn't pay no limits unless I got a kick back when the contractor is not working. I guess the meaning of seasonal is changing.


All a matter of what is put in the scope of work. We have a total snowfall cap which is slightly over our areas average. Do you expect your auto insurance to give you money back if you don't use it during the policy term? Or how about pay for more than the coverage you signed up for?


----------



## MSsnowplowing

JMHConstruction said:


> Except if your the customer, you don't break even at all. If you get a light year, you get screwed because you essentially paid for something that wasn't used. If you get a heavy year, the contractor charges extra and you still lose.
> 
> But if the contractor says it will be all the gutters, and then added the gutters up wrong, that's on him.
> 
> I'm not saying I wouldn't do it, and I don't think anyone is wrong by doing it. It just feel the whole "it all eventually evens out" thought doesn't apply, since there's nothing to even out. Contractor has no risk, just the customers.
> 
> I get that it's an unforseen event, and I would probably add it to the contract. Just showing my point of view on it from a different prospective.


I know what your saying.

But it does even out, light year I make out, heavy year they make out -(I don't charge for going over snow amounts)

I know companies that set a limit on the amount of snow and if it goes over that snow fall amount they charge extra. 
So they set their seasonal price based on 45 inches and anything over that charge x amount of dollars.

I also a company that did this, lowballed the client with a 45 inch snow fall amount and that year we got 52 inches.
The client paid an extra $10,000.00 on top of the $6,500 they paid for the seasonal.
I know because I took it over the following year and saw the numbers.
The seasonal rate I had bid was $9,500.00 that year.
The client was ohhh I can save $3,000.000 and found out the hard way to read the fine print.

So I set my seasonal based on x amount of inches if it is under that I make out if it goes over that my clients do.

The years we got over x amount inches of snow and no blizzards they made out -(I don't want to put my numbers down) and there was several of them.

The first two blizzards I had to deal with and the extra costs made me put in my contracts the blizzard clause to cover my extra costs after all we are in the business to make money not lose money.

Also I don't gouge my clients and charge a reasonable amount for dealing with blizzards because I would rather make a little extra for long term than a lot for one storm and lose accounts.

As for the contractor roof thing, if a contractor quotes you work, whether it plumbing, roofing, electrial etc... and something comes up that was not part of the quote you pay for it, the contractor does not do the extra work buy the parts out of their pocket.

Here you go, this is a better example:

Your adding a extra outlet in your home.
You get a price from a electrian to add the outlet.

He comes in to add it and after opening up the wall finds the wiring is frayed and needs to be replaced

The quote was just to add a outlet to existing wire.

Replacing the wire was not so you have to pay for additional time and matierals.


----------



## FredG

kimber750 said:


> All a matter of what is put in the scope of work. We have a total snowfall cap which is slightly over our areas average. Do you expect your auto insurance to give you money back if you don't use it during the policy term? Or how about pay for more than the coverage you signed up for?


Yes if a vehicle comes off the road and insurance is canceled I do receive a refund. Or I can leave it registered and tell them it will have no road use between seasons. There is special rates for seasonal vehicles.

Again seasonal is risky to Contractor and client. If this is the road you want to follow with seasonal where your guaranteed a check every month.
1) You can work your B's off 24 hours a day and hope the next two seasons average out.
2) Sit on your Cooley like grandview did a few years back with little to no service and ring the bell. Maybe seasonal contracts are changing. I just don't think it's honest to have it both ways. I don't want no avenues to a seasonal contract with the exception of removal.


----------



## FredG

MSsnowplowing said:


> I know what your saying.
> 
> But it does even out, light year I make out, heavy year they make out -(I don't charge for going over snow amounts)
> 
> I know companies that set a limit on the amount of snow and if it goes over that snow fall amount they charge extra.
> So they set their seasonal price based on 45 inches and anything over that charge x amount of dollars.
> 
> I also a company that did this, lowballed the client with a 45 inch snow fall amount and that year we got 52 inches.
> The client paid an extra $10,000.00 on top of the $6,500 they paid for the seasonal.
> I know because I took it over the following year and saw the numbers.
> The seasonal rate I had bid was $9,500.00 that year.
> The client was ohhh I can save $3,000.000 and found out the hard way to read the fine print.
> 
> So I set my seasonal based on x amount of inches if it is under that I make out if it goes over that my clients do.
> 
> The years we got over x amount inches of snow and no blizzards they made out -(I don't want to put my numbers down) and there was several of them.
> 
> The first two blizzards I had to deal with and the extra costs made me put in my contracts the blizzard clause to cover my extra costs after all we are in the business to make money not lose money.
> 
> Also I don't gouge my clients and charge a reasonable amount for dealing with blizzards because I would rather make a little extra for long term than a lot for one storm and lose accounts.
> 
> As for the contractor roof thing, if a contractor quotes you work, whether it plumbing, roofing, electrial etc... and something comes up that was not part of the quote you pay for it, the contractor does not do the extra work buy the parts out of their pocket.
> 
> Here you go, this is a better example:
> 
> Your adding a extra outlet in your home.
> You get a price from a electrian to add the outlet.
> 
> He comes in to add it and after opening up the wall finds the wiring is frayed and needs to be replaced
> 
> The quote was just to add a outlet to existing wire.
> 
> Replacing the wire was not so you have to pay for additional time and matierals.


Your not comparing a apple to a apple, Moving snow don't have no sheet rock blocking your view for unforeseen issues. You should know every SQ Ft of the job no surprises. Yes mother nature could surprise you with heavy or light snow amounts.


----------



## kimber750

FredG said:


> Yes if a vehicle comes off the road and insurance is canceled I do receive a refund. Or I can leave it registered and tell them it will have no road use between seasons. There is special rates for seasonal vehicles.


That is a poor comparison. You get refunded for unused portion of the policy, not for the time it was insured. You choose to pull the vehicle off the road not requiring the possible need for the service. Not got done using the vehicle/service then deciding you didn't need the service and wanted some money back. If we get no snow why should I eat the bill for salt, maintenance, Seasonally paid employees, insurance and any other expenses that were incurred to protect their property from the potential of adverse weather?

For clients a seasonal allows them to budget. No surprise $100k bill after a single blizzard, like what happened to a local UPS here last year. Yet still a season where our seasonal contracts stay under the cap.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

FredG said:


> Your not comparing a apple to a apple, Moving snow don't have no sheet rock blocking your view for unforeseen issues. You should know every SQ Ft of the job no surprises. Yes mother nature could surprise you with heavy or light snow amounts.


Using it as a example of unforeseen issues.

A blizzard is a unforeseen issue unless you get one or more every single year and in my neck of the woods we don't.

Thus a blizzard clause to cover the unforeseen issue.

or as other guys do put a limit on snow fall total and the client pays extra if it goes over it.

Which I might do in the future, still debating it.


----------



## FredG

kimber750 said:


> That is a poor comparison. You get refunded for unused portion of the policy, not for the time it was insured. You choose to pull the vehicle off the road not requiring the possible need for the service. Not got done using the vehicle/service then deciding you didn't need the service and wanted some money back. If we get no snow why should I eat the bill for salt, maintenance, Seasonally paid employees, insurance and any other expenses that were incurred to protect their property from the potential of adverse weather?
> 
> For clients a seasonal allows them to budget. No surprise $100k bill after a single blizzard, like what happened to a local UPS here last year. Yet still a season where our seasonal contracts stay under the cap.


You mentioned insurance not me, Yes if I choose to take a backup truck off the road after the snow season I do and if a refund is owed I want it.

I work in the dirt and when the season is over the guys get laid off. My plow guys are always ready after they are done with the union which should be in a week or two. I don't expect my clients funds to keep a guy working or any cost of materials that occur without any service.

I can see MJD closing this out shortly. This is becoming like a confrontational subject like NSP's. Furd and chevy, diesel and gas threads. Yes seasonal does give clients a budget. It also can make them pay for a light season with little to no work performed. I do whats best for my business and myself. I'm much more happier and my earnings with my mostly per trip accounts. 4'' storm give me two plowing and possible two salting, That's a fare amount of earnings for me in a day.

I'm not in your area you know what has to be done. It means diddly whatever way I run mine to be profitable or my believes. I wish you high earnings that's what counts.


----------



## FredG

MSsnowplowing said:


> Using it as a example of unforeseen issues.
> 
> A blizzard is a unforeseen issue unless you get one or more every single year and in my neck of the woods we don't.
> 
> Thus a blizzard clause to cover the unforeseen issue.
> 
> or as other guys do put a limit on snow fall total and the client pays extra if it goes over it.
> 
> Which I might do in the future, still debating it.


Hows a blizzard a unforeseen issue? I remember tons of them. It's just the earth repeating itself. I don't remember getting anymore money in a blizzard without the exception of removal. I wish the contractors would use caps and limit's around here. Give me more opportunity to pick up a few per trip. lol.


----------



## JMHConstruction

FredG said:


> I can see MJD closing this out shortly. This is becoming like a confrontational subject


Not confrontational, just a debate. No name calling, or guys getting angry (I don't think). No real reason to shut it down.

If I had seasonals, as a contractor, I would want a limit. I'm just talking from a customer point of view. I thought I was a good little debate.


----------



## Broncslefty7

my seasonals cap at 55" then its per inch after that.


----------



## kimber750

FredG said:


> You mentioned insurance not me, Yes if I choose to take a backup truck off the road after the snow season I do and if a refund is owed I want it.
> 
> I work in the dirt and when the season is over the guys get laid off. My plow guys are always ready after they are done with the union which should be in a week or two. I don't expect my clients funds to keep a guy working or any cost of materials that occur without any service.
> 
> I can see MJD closing this out shortly. This is becoming like a confrontational subject like NSP's. Furd and chevy, diesel and gas threads. Yes seasonal does give clients a budget. It also can make them pay for a light season with little to no work performed. I do whats best for my business and myself. I'm much more happier and my earnings with my mostly per trip accounts. 4'' storm give me two plowing and possible two salting, That's a fare amount of earnings for me in a day.
> 
> I'm not in your area you know what has to be done. It means diddly whatever way I run mine to be profitable or my believes. I wish you high earnings that's what counts.


Let me try it this way. We are providing a service, that service comes with a contract explaining what we will and won't do along with the cost of said service. The client agrees to this service by signing said contract. No refund will ever be given as long as we fulfill our end of the contract. Comparing seasonal to auto is the exact same thing. Canceling your auto insurance is not the same thing as completing a light snow season. We were still watching that property with equipment on site and manpower on stand by. Once you cancelled your auto insurance you can not call them up and file a claim. So yes your comparison is flawed. Yes you can say we are ripping off the client but I say when a per push guy charges more for one blizzard than what our entire seasonal contract would be they are ripping the customer off.

As for my area, we have very unpredictable winters. Can have 3 storms all season, two small 2-4" and one 24"+ storm. Or it could snow 3" every two days for weeks. For us a bunch of small storms is more expensive than a few small storms and a blizzard. Our salt use drops, labor is actually less. Yet per push guys charge a fortune for a blizzard. As long we stay under the cap, client doesn't request anything extra, there is no up charge.

You seem to be the only one getting mad, not my intention. Just trying to explain why I don't believe seasonal is ripping the client off.


----------



## kimber750

Broncslefty7 said:


> my seasonals cap at 55" then its per inch after that.


We go hourly after the cap. Has only happened once in all my years plowing.


----------



## Broncslefty7

kimber750 said:


> We go hourly after the cap. Has only happened once in all my years plowing.


it happened last year. i billed for an additional 14 inches.


----------



## Broncslefty7

FredG said:


> You mentioned insurance not me, Yes if I choose to take a backup truck off the road after the snow season I do and if a refund is owed I want it.
> 
> I work in the dirt and when the season is over the guys get laid off. My plow guys are always ready after they are done with the union which should be in a week or two. I don't expect my clients funds to keep a guy working or any cost of materials that occur without any service.
> 
> I can see MJD closing this out shortly. This is becoming like a confrontational subject like NSP's. Furd and chevy, diesel and gas threads. Yes seasonal does give clients a budget. It also can make them pay for a light season with little to no work performed. I do whats best for my business and myself. I'm much more happier and my earnings with my mostly per trip accounts. 4'' storm give me two plowing and possible two salting, That's a fare amount of earnings for me in a day.
> 
> I'm not in your area you know what has to be done. It means diddly whatever way I run mine to be profitable or my believes. I wish you high earnings that's what counts.


Fred with the majority of customers you are correct. however when working for the state of connecticut, some of their contracts stated that there is a 20" minimum for the season. i remember seeing a contract where like 60% of the contract would be refunded if there was less than 20" and that was on a 350k contract for the state. They generally pay up from on a 3% discount though. let me do some digging to see if i can find it. i will post it when i can.


----------



## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> Not confrontational, just a debate. No name calling, or guys getting angry (I don't think). No real reason to shut it down.
> 
> If I had seasonals, as a contractor, I would want a limit. I'm just talking from a customer point of view. I thought I was a good little debate.


Of course if you can get it. Bring your teeth pullers here if you want to try it lol. It's just what your area can stand. Of course you want to get the most out of any job you do we got expenses on our back. I'm just stating what would be cool in my region. The last I knew this area would not tolerate it. Light winter the Contractor wins, High snow amounts cold blizzard condition the client wins unless you pick up removal which is not and has never been inclusive on seasonal contracts.

I also stated above that things change if it has here it has not been brought to my attention. No it has not been confrontational the day is early lol you know how it gets sometime.


----------



## ktfbgb

I dont think its getting confrontational. Just a good debate. just because people have different opinions about it does not make it confrontational. We are allowed to disagree. I for one am enjoying reading the debate, and no one is attacking anyone so I would hope it doesnt get closed out.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> Hows a blizzard a unforeseen issue? I remember tons of them. It's just the earth repeating itself. I don't remember getting anymore money in a blizzard without the exception of removal. I wish the contractors would use caps and limit's around here. Give me more opportunity to pick up a few per trip. lol.


Can you define a blizzard?

Unless you live in the Great Plains, blizzards are pretty unpredictable by nature, just like hurricanes.

We haven't had a "blizzard" or "major" snowfall in several years. But we can have them every year. Due to that fact, I can't plan my equipment and personnel requirements on something that happens every once in a great while. I'd have to have at least twice the equipment and manpower that I do now. And it isn't fair for my customers to pay every year for something that might happen once every 5 years.

'13-'14 we basically had 120". Last season we had 59". Do my customers pay me for 120" when we only received half that? Or do they pay me for average and if we go over, they pay extra?

If I lived down in ktfbgtb's area where heavy accumulations happen annually, it would be a different story.

My contracts have a cap on visits. There's too many times we don't plow snow as it only accumulates on the grass but we don't plow, they shouldn't have to pay for that.


----------



## FredG

kimber750 said:


> Let me try it this way. We are providing a service, that service comes with a contract explaining what we will and won't do along with the cost of said service. The client agrees to this service by signing said contract. No refund will ever be given as long as we fulfill our end of the contract. Comparing seasonal to auto is the exact same thing. Canceling your auto insurance is not the same thing as completing a light snow season. We were still watching that property with equipment on site and manpower on stand by. Once you cancelled your auto insurance you can not call them up and file a claim. So yes your comparison is flawed. Yes you can say we are ripping off the client but I say when a per push guy charges more for one blizzard than what our entire seasonal contract would be they are ripping the customer off.
> 
> As for my area, we have very unpredictable winters. Can have 3 storms all season, two small 2-4" and one 24"+ storm. Or it could snow 3" every two days for weeks. For us a bunch of small storms is more expensive than a few small storms and a blizzard. Our salt use drops, labor is actually less. Yet per push guys charge a fortune for a blizzard. As long we stay under the cap, client doesn't request anything extra, there is no up charge.
> 
> You seem to be the only one getting mad, not my intention. Just trying to explain why I don't believe seasonal is ripping the client off.


Just as I thought. We are not on the same page and I have not shown any aggression. I didn't compare auto to nothing you did.

I never stated seasonal was ripping a client off. I was just stating here these caps and avenues to a seasonal will not work here. You take the seasonal you have a bad winter so be it. You have little to no snow so be it. Yes per trip I can make more than a seasonal. Stack, skid or loader service 5 trips a day all pays well this is why I choose to do this per trip.

I get paid when I work the same in the summer and that's the way I like it. I don't need anybody's money if I don't work. FWIW I choose to run the snow end of my business this way. I have no intention to try to talk anybody to do this. This is just me and I'm not mad and don't think that anybody was trying to. That was yesterday I was mad but had nothing to do with PS. It was that :terribletowel:doctor they sent me to lol.


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> Can you define a blizzard?
> 
> Unless you live in the Great Plains, blizzards are pretty unpredictable by nature, just like hurricanes.
> 
> We haven't had a "blizzard" or "major" snowfall in several years. But we can have them every year. Due to that fact, I can't plan my equipment and personnel requirements on something that happens every once in a great while. I'd have to have at least twice the equipment and manpower that I do now. And it isn't fair for my customers to pay every year for something that might happen once every 5 years.
> 
> '13-'14 we basically had 120". Last season we had 59". Do my customers pay me for 120" when we only received half that? Or do they pay me for average and if we go over, they pay extra?
> 
> If I lived down in ktfbgtb's area where heavy accumulations happen annually, it would be a different story.
> 
> My contracts have a cap on visits. There's too many times we don't plow snow as it only accumulates on the grass but we don't plow, they shouldn't have to pay for that.


On seasonal you should get paid for the season with 100'' of snow or 5'' of snow.


----------



## ponyboy

We have different level of seasonal
Where customers choose their limits and
And it's prIced according 
Some get 4 plowing events 
Some get eight 
Some unlimited 
Pain in the office but it is what it is as long as we make money imngood


----------



## FredG

Broncslefty7 said:


> Fred with the majority of customers you are correct. however when working for the state of connecticut, some of their contracts stated that there is a 20" minimum for the season. i remember seeing a contract where like 60% of the contract would be refunded if there was less than 20" and that was on a 350k contract for the state. They generally pay up from on a 3% discount though. let me do some digging to see if i can find it. i will post it when i can.


I'm sure there is a lot of different stuff in different states that I'm not aware of. Standard practices for different areas. Who would of ever thought in KT area in flagstaff they don't salt or very little.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

FredG said:


> I'm sure there is a lot of different stuff in different states that I'm not aware of. Standard practices for different areas. Who would of ever thought in KT area in flagstaff they don't salt or very little.


Me...lol


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> I'm sure there is a lot of different stuff in different states that I'm not aware of. Standard practices for different areas. Who would of ever thought in KT area in flagstaff they don't salt or very little.


The salt thing is slowly changing. The state, city and county have been salting for probably over a decade now. But not all roads. The state salts the begesus out of interstate 17, and Interstate 40. Moderate salting of Highway 89A which goes down to Sedona. The county salts a few major roads that are the I40 business loop. And the City salts Milton Rd sometimes. All other municipal roads get straight cinder sand with nothing mixed in.

The guy I used to plow for runs a straight Cinder truck For the Walmart's and Home Depot's and grocery stores. He has never dropped any salt on any of those lots. Of course walks and store entrances get granular ice melt. Starting this season I have seen a few trucks with V boxes on them. First time I have seen them other than Johns Cinder truck. I have no idea if they are going to spread salt, cinder salt mix, or straight cinder. I heard that a couple places were wanting salting on their bids this year. But with no place to get bulk salt here the price would be really high to spread granular. I have herd that you can get bulk salt in Phoenix. I'm pretty sure that the municipalities are getting their bulk brought in from Salt Lake area in Utah.

I dont know how it is going to go. I'm trying to keep my finger on it to be ready Incase it goes that way. I just dont see salting of commercial lots happening until we get a place to get bulk salt in the area. I can see more and more places wanting cinder sand spread though. Since that is black, it really helps to cook off the hard pack which really only stays around for a few days except for on the north side of buildings. IDK, we'll see what happens. I'm pretty sure that John charges very similar for spreading cinder sand as you guys do for salt. So that may be a way to drive more revenue if it becomes more frequent on the lots.


----------



## JustJeff

If you start spreading salt (assuming it catches on there) you could probably more than double your revenue if you were able to get bulk delivered/stored.


----------



## Freshwater

ktfbgb said:


> The salt thing is slowly changing. The state, city and county have been salting for probably over a decade now. But not all roads. The state salts the begesus out of interstate 17, and Interstate 40. Moderate salting of Highway 89A which goes down to Sedona. The county salts a few major roads that are the I40 business loop. And the City salts Milton Rd sometimes. All other municipal roads get straight cinder sand with nothing mixed in.
> 
> The guy I used to plow for runs a straight Cinder truck For the Walmart's and Home Depot's and grocery stores. He has never dropped any salt on any of those lots. Of course walks and store entrances get granular ice melt. Starting this season I have seen a few trucks with V boxes on them. First time I have seen them other than Johns Cinder truck. I have no idea if they are going to spread salt, cinder salt mix, or straight cinder. I heard that a couple places were wanting salting on their bids this year. But with no place to get bulk salt here the price would be really high to spread granular. I have herd that you can get bulk salt in Phoenix. I'm pretty sure that the municipalities are getting their bulk brought in from Salt Lake area in Utah.
> 
> I dont know how it is going to go. I'm trying to keep my finger on it to be ready Incase it goes that way. I just dont see salting of commercial lots happening until we get a place to get bulk salt in the area. I can see more and more places wanting cinder sand spread though. Since that is black, it really helps to cook off the hard pack which really only stays around for a few days except for on the north side of buildings. IDK, we'll see what happens. I'm pretty sure that John charges very similar for spreading cinder sand as you guys do for salt. So that may be a way to drive more revenue if it becomes more frequent on the lots.


Sounds like you could be the guy selling bulk salt to the other contractors in the area.


----------



## JMHConstruction

Maybe this is more my area, since we get so little snowfalls, but do you guys see a shift in seasonals to per push back to seasonals at all?

Our averages are around 20", so seasonals aren't big around here. Including working for someone else and doing only sidewalks, I have been doing snow removal for 8 years, and have only worked 2 heavy blizzards that I can remember. The most snowfall in a season I've worked was 44", and that was only because of a random late season 2' blizzard. Obviously I haven't been doing this very long, but long enough to know that heavy snowfalls are rare.

Last year we had a whopping 2 1/2 inches all year. And I've had multiple under 10" seasons.

I know that after the last few years it would be pretty hard selling a seasonal. Do you guys notice a trend that after a few light years they want per push, and then after they get hosed with the per push after a busy year, they want to go back to seasonal?


----------



## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> Maybe this is more my area, since we get so little snowfalls, but do you guys see a shift in seasonals to per push back to seasonals at all?
> 
> Our averages are around 20", so seasonals aren't big around here. Including working for someone else and doing only sidewalks, I have been doing snow removal for 8 years, and have only worked 2 heavy blizzards that I can remember. The most snowfall in a season I've worked was 44", and that was only because of a random late season 2' blizzard. Obviously I haven't been doing this very long, but long enough to know that heavy snowfalls are rare.
> 
> Last year we had a whopping 2 1/2 inches all year. And I've had multiple under 10" seasons.
> 
> I know that after the last few years it would be pretty hard selling a seasonal. Do you guys notice a trend that after a few light years they want per push, and then after they get hosed with the per push after a busy year, they want to go back to seasonal?


Some when requesting a bid will ask for a seasonal and per push.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

FredG said:


> Hows a blizzard a unforeseen issue? I remember tons of them. It's just the earth repeating itself. I don't remember getting anymore money in a blizzard without the exception of removal. I wish the contractors would use caps and limit's around here. Give me more opportunity to pick up a few per trip. lol.


In 12 years of plowing there has only been 5 blizzards in my area one 18 inch, 3 two foot and 1 three foot.

If it there was a blizzard each year then it could be calculated but its not. The last blizzard was 2 years ago.

So it for my area it is a unforeseen event.

I'm sure you get a lot more and no thank you, would rather plow out a 3-6 inch storm every few days for the entire season than deal with a blizzard.


----------



## ktfbgb

MSsnowplowing said:


> In 12 years of plowing there has only been 5 blizzards in my area one 18 inch, 3 two foot and 1 three foot.
> 
> If it there was a blizzard each year then it could be calculated but its not. The last blizzard was 2 years ago.
> 
> So it for my area it is a unforeseen event.
> 
> I'm sure you get a lot more and no thank you, would rather plow out a 3-6 inch storm every few days for the entire season than deal with a blizzard.


Meh... you get used to it. You just dont call them blizzards anymore. Just another storm.


----------



## MSsnowplowing

ktfbgb said:


> Meh... you get used to it. You just dont call them blizzards anymore. Just another storm.


Just learned something new from you, cinder sand.

Never heard of that before, Around here it's either salt, magic, sand/salt mix or liquid brine-(not too many using this)

It sounds interesting and what I could pull up it might be cheaper than a sand/salt mix around $55 a ton.

And that's what I like about plowsite you can learn new things.


----------



## ktfbgb

MSsnowplowing said:


> Just learned something new from you, cinder sand.
> 
> Never heard of that before, Around here it's either salt, magic, sand/salt mix or liquid brine-(not too many using this)
> 
> It sounds interesting and what I could pull up it might be cheaper than a sand/salt mix around $55 a ton.
> 
> And that's what I like about plowsite you can learn new things.


It's cheap for us because we live on and next to some big ass volcanos. So, there are several pit mines here that sell it cheap. We use it just like sand for concrete slab base, paver base, etc.


----------



## FredG

MSsnowplowing said:


> Just learned something new from you, cinder sand.
> 
> Never heard of that before, Around here it's either salt, magic, sand/salt mix or liquid brine-(not too many using this)
> 
> It sounds interesting and what I could pull up it might be cheaper than a sand/salt mix around $55 a ton.
> 
> And that's what I like about plowsite you can learn new things.


In Alaska they use stone, You have to clean it up in the spring.


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> In Alaska they use stone, You have to clean it up in the spring.


Same here. Depending on how the winter goes sometimes they sweep the streets a couple times before the main cleanup in spring.


----------



## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> Maybe this is more my area, since we get so little snowfalls, but do you guys see a shift in seasonals to per push back to seasonals at all?
> 
> Our averages are around 20", so seasonals aren't big around here. Including working for someone else and doing only sidewalks, I have been doing snow removal for 8 years, and have only worked 2 heavy blizzards that I can remember. The most snowfall in a season I've worked was 44", and that was only because of a random late season 2' blizzard. Obviously I haven't been doing this very long, but long enough to know that heavy snowfalls are rare.
> 
> Last year we had a whopping 2 1/2 inches all year. And I've had multiple under 10" seasons.
> 
> I know that after the last few years it would be pretty hard selling a seasonal. Do you guys notice a trend that after a few light years they want per push, and then after they get hosed with the per push after a busy year, they want to go back to seasonal?


Yes a lot have converted from seasonal to per trip. They like everybody to think it's a budget thing but the truth of the matter is they think they come ahead. This is why some want the bid both ways. We do factories for example one is a $1200.00 push. Been doing them for 3 yrs no problem pushing 3 times a day if needed. Per trip I wish they did have a snow wizard more money. Somehow when there on per trip the wizards are gone. It's a good thing for per push or I would not be doing this. It's not that easy sometime when the snow blows up as high as the building.

I had one similar to this one but somebody had a BIL in high places. Darn Italians lol.


----------



## FredG

ktfbgb said:


> Same here. Depending on how the winter goes sometimes they sweep the streets a couple times before the main cleanup in spring.


You might as well be in Alaska lol.


----------



## cjames808

ponyboy said:


> We have different level of seasonal
> Where customers choose their limits and
> And it's prIced according
> Some get 4 plowing events
> Some get eight
> Some unlimited
> Pain in the office but it is what it is as long as we make money imngood


I am a fan of capping our seasonals just above our regional average. We do have several different contract types to suit our customers needs. A slight pain in the office when billing but works well.


----------



## FredG

cjames808 said:


> I am a fan of capping our seasonals just above our regional average. We do have several different contract types to suit our customers needs. A slight pain in the office when billing but works well.


I would be a fan to if your market can stand it and you can get them to sign. It's above your average should not be a issue really. You would discombobulate these :terribletowel:around here. They don't understand and think you were trying to hose them lol.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

I didn't have a cap on my seasonals before '13-'14. 

We plowed some of the higher priority accounts over 55 times. Not always full plows, but many were. When you figure an average of 30 times for those same accounts, you start to lose money. Salt applications were in the 70s overall and 90s for a couple accounts.

One other thing that was unique about that year was the temps. In the past we could melt 3/4" of snow with salt, but salt prices were very high AND it would have taken at minimum 50% more salt to burn that snow oof, so we plowed and then salted. That isn't anyone's fault. And completely uncontrollable. 

So over the course of a 3 year contract, even if there were 2 light years, the contractor would still come out behind.

I am not screwing my customers and trying to get rich on charging them more over a cap, in fact I will give them a couple plowings before I start charging them, it is strictly so I can maintain the level of service they have received up until that point. Had a few customers ask about it, and when I explained it to them, they had no problem with it.


----------



## Freshwater

Mark Oomkes said:


> I didn't have a cap on my seasonals before '13-'14.
> 
> We plowed some of the higher priority accounts over 55 times. Not always full plows, but many were. When you figure an average of 30 times for those same accounts, you start to lose money. Salt applications were in the 70s overall and 90s for a couple accounts.
> 
> One other thing that was unique about that year was the temps. In the past we could melt 3/4" of snow with salt, but salt prices were very high AND it would have taken at minimum 50% more salt to burn that snow oof, so we plowed and then salted. That isn't anyone's fault. And completely uncontrollable.
> 
> So over the course of a 3 year contract, even if there were 2 light years, the contractor would still come out behind.
> 
> I am not screwing my customers and trying to get rich on charging them more over a cap, in fact I will give them a couple plowings before I start charging them, it is strictly so I can maintain the level of service they have received up until that point. Had a few customers ask about it, and when I explained it to them, they had no problem with it.


Mark I see where your coming from, and I honestly think grand rapids should have caps, and protections. My take is 3yrs is to small a sample to really balance seasonal. Would you agree that the last 2yrs plus 2011?(the real light year). Would balance 2014? My numbers here are real close for that group. My numbers here for all the other years from then to now as a group are really close too.


----------



## FredG

Mark Oomkes said:


> I didn't have a cap on my seasonals before '13-'14.
> 
> We plowed some of the higher priority accounts over 55 times. Not always full plows, but many were. When you figure an average of 30 times for those same accounts, you start to lose money. Salt applications were in the 70s overall and 90s for a couple accounts.
> 
> One other thing that was unique about that year was the temps. In the past we could melt 3/4" of snow with salt, but salt prices were very high AND it would have taken at minimum 50% more salt to burn that snow oof, so we plowed and then salted. That isn't anyone's fault. And completely uncontrollable.
> 
> So over the course of a 3 year contract, even if there were 2 light years, the contractor would still come out behind.
> 
> I am not screwing my customers and trying to get rich on charging them more over a cap, in fact I will give them a couple plowings before I start charging them, it is strictly so I can maintain the level of service they have received up until that point. Had a few customers ask about it, and when I explained it to them, they had no problem with it.


Cool you got some rational clients not narrow minded. All the hoodlums around make it tough. Scared that your trying to hose them.


----------



## JMHConstruction

I was playing devil's advocate here, but regardless of what your thoughts are (put a cap or not) I think it's time to move Fred. I would never let a customer tell me how to run my business, no matter what I decided to say in my contract.

I'm not saying YOU are letting them, but it sounds like your area has let it happen long enough that it's the norm. F dealing with that


----------



## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> I was playing devil's advocate here, but regardless of what your thoughts are (put a cap or not) I think it's time to move Fred. I would never let a customer tell me how to run my business, no matter what I decided to say in my contract.
> 
> I'm not saying YOU are letting them, but it sounds like your area has let it happen long enough that it's the norm. F dealing with that


Makes


----------



## ktfbgb

FredG said:


> Makes


Me happy


----------



## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> I was playing devil's advocate here, but regardless of what your thoughts are (put a cap or not) I think it's time to move Fred. I would never let a customer tell me how to run my business, no matter what I decided to say in my contract.
> 
> I'm not saying YOU are letting them, but it sounds like your area has let it happen long enough that it's the norm. F dealing with that


I agree why you think I had them fire me. You just can't leave someone high and dry cause you want to bail you could have contract issues. Again I'm happy with what I'm doing. If I can't score per trip and have some nice earnings I'm done. I put my time in.


----------



## JMHConstruction

FredG said:


> I agree why you think I had them fire me. You just can't leave someone high and dry cause you want to bail you could have contract issues. Again I'm happy with what I'm doing. If I can't score per trip and have some nice earnings I'm done. I put my time in.


Not that it's right, and I've never done it, but I'm my contract I have written that I can basically quit at any time. I just have to give in writing that I quit. I have to give 14 days to let them find a new contractor, and both parties have to follow the contract during those 14 days. If it storms on day 8, I'm obligated to clear it, and they're obligated to pay. If it storms on day 15, I'm no longer obligated to perform work, and cannot be held liable for any claims after that point.

For them, they can cancel at any time, as long as it's in writing.

Not sure if you have that or not, but it might be something you could look into.


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## ponyboy

Exactly either party can cancel with 30 day written notice 
If they can fire you it's only fair we can fire them 
I've done it once last year first time in 25+ years plowing 
Told them they need to do it them selves no contractor could stay at their place small bagel shop 
Well they did buy a jeep and they kept me for salting 
Honestly does go a long way


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## JMHConstruction

ponyboy said:


> Exactly either party can cancel with 30 day written notice
> If they can fire you it's only fair we can fire them
> I've done it once last year first time in 25+ years plowing
> Told them they need to do it them selves no contractor could stay at their place small bagel shop
> Well they did buy a jeep and they kept me for salting
> Honestly does go a long way


Mine might be 30 days come to think of it. Never had to use it, so I haven't looked at it in a while.


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## ktfbgb

JMHConstruction said:


> Mine might be 30 days come to think of it. Never had to use it, so I haven't looked at it in a while.


Mine is 30 days. Pretty sure that's standard boiler plate.


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## JMHConstruction

ktfbgb said:


> Mine is 30 days. Pretty sure that's standard boiler plate.


Yes. Had to check it out after I started doubting myself. Probably something I should've known off the top of my head


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## SpectrumSnowIns

Defcon 5 said:


> Interesting....Who are these derivatives through??..... "Low" snow areas such as yourself..you think you would be hedging your derivatives towards the low end...Such as last year....


"derivatives"? I wasn't aware that anyone used derivatives any longer.

One note of caution. Regulations require that any buyer or Seller of derivatives must have either $1M in net worth or $10M in assets. If not, laws may be broken. And if considering a derivative placement, be sure to contact your accountant regarding the proper accounting treatment and taxation. Be smart!

Rob


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## SpectrumSnowIns

MSsnowplowing said:


> It would be interesting to see what they think my average snow fall is each year.
> 
> Thinking about it if you want to know your average snowfall and can't find totals then call them and ask about the insurance.
> 
> Then they will tell you what your average snow fall is


10-year average around 38"? Heaviest recent year was 2014-15 (~65-70"), and heaviest in the past 30 years was 1995-96 (~85")? Is that about the right ballpark?


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## MSsnowplowing

Spectrum7 said:


> 10-year average around 38"? Heaviest recent year was 2014-15 (~65-70"), and heaviest in the past 30 years was 1995-96 (~85")? Is that about the right ballpark?


Looking at my records a 10 year average is around 40"

2014-2015 was 75"

No clue in 95 was not plowing then

I'm thinking around 45 to 50 for this year.

And already long range we might be getting snow on the 28th and the 1st  which would be nice


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## JMHConstruction

90% seasonal and you want Snow? I'd be praying that it never snowed


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## John_DeereGreen

JMHConstruction said:


> 90% seasonal and you want Snow? I'd be praying that it never snowed


Amen!


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## Mark Oomkes

98% seasonal and I hope for snow and cold. Lots of cold and average to above average snow.


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## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> Not that it's right, and I've never done it, but I'm my contract I have written that I can basically quit at any time. I just have to give in writing that I quit. I have to give 14 days to let them find a new contractor, and both parties have to follow the contract during those 14 days. If it storms on day 8, I'm obligated to clear it, and they're obligated to pay. If it storms on day 15, I'm no longer obligated to perform work, and cannot be held liable for any claims after that point.
> 
> For them, they can cancel at any time, as long as it's in writing.
> 
> Not sure if you have that or not, but it might be something you could look into.


I agree and there is any party can be fired. I wanted out right away not good for me to be around a wizard like that. They had attorneys on site and I was advised by mine to let them fire me. They were paid to date and it was the beginning of the month and they paid the whole month in good faith.

This is a small City and everybody know everybody. Things are different here and been that way forever. People are narrow minded at not rational always on there guard on coming ahead and always on guard of being hosed. As long as I'm happy with the earnings and I can survive on per trip this is what I will do. If not I will be joining the ranks of Mr Philbilly and restructure or put it behind me. I had a long run. lowred:  :laugh:


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## MSsnowplowing

JMHConstruction said:


> 90% seasonal and you want Snow? I'd be praying that it never snowed


Just signed a large contract per storm so some snow would be nice.
Now it's 85% seasonal


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## Luther

JMHConstruction said:


> 90% seasonal and you want Snow? I'd be praying that it never snowed


We're over 90%, and I hope it snows. Too much preparation, planning and anticipation involved to wish not to do what we do. Why be at the starting gate ready to rock wishing for the gun not to fire?

I also want the rest of our army to collect a paycheck.


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## Luther

Spectrum7 said:


> "derivatives"? I wasn't aware that anyone used derivatives any longer.
> 
> One note of caution. Regulations require that any buyer or Seller of derivatives must have either $1M in net worth or $10M in assets. If not, laws may be broken. And if considering a derivative placement, be sure to contact your accountant regarding the proper accounting treatment and taxation. Be smart!
> 
> Rob


Why would such a smart man associate himself with such a group of misfits LOL?

Welcome sir!


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## JMHConstruction

Luther said:


> We're over 90%, and I hope it snows. Too much preparation, planning and anticipation involved to wish not to do what we do. Why be at the starting gate ready to rock wishing for the gun not to fire?
> 
> I also want the rest of our army to collect a paycheck.


Keeping the employees happy and paid would be the only reason I'd want snow.

I wouldn't have a problem doing the prep work, and not having it snow. If I was making the same as if it did snow, I'd just sit back all winter. I do get where you're coming from though.


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## FredG

JMHConstruction said:


> Keeping the employees happy and paid would be the only reason I'd want snow.
> 
> I wouldn't have a problem doing the prep work, and not having it snow. If I was making the same as if it did snow, I'd just sit back all winter. I do get where you're coming from though.


Meh, I don't worry about the Guys, They know the Company is basically seasonal, In fact most are ready for the layoff. The smart ones are all ready lined up for creative payroll lol. Yes it's not good for the younger guys that have not totally grasped the concept of earning money and are bummed out.

If they hang out long enough they will learn hard knoxs and be okay. My plow guys are not on my summer crew. The guys that come with me are laid off from the union or at least Davis baker. You know guys you can send to do something without to much worry. The only thing with them Guys is you got to watch the sham they can be good at that lol.


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