# 4 lo



## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Hey quick question about 4 lo, Detroit is suppose to get a nice storm Tuesday 6-14" and unforntualy I have a lot that won't be Cleared till the storm is over, will I be able to get over 5 mph so I can use 4 hi instead. Little info on my truck, it's f250 turbo diesel 4x4 6.0 l. The lot is a trucking lot but no docks, just a long 1/8. Mi stretch


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

What's the question?


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Will I or should I be able to get over 5 mph? I want to use 4 hi and get the lot done fast but if we get a foot will is be able to or should I even?


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

Depending on heavy snow or powder, vblade or straight, etc.

I'd open the lot up throughout he storm if at all possible. A foot of snow is rough on equipment. 

Yes, you should be able to do it, but it will take substantially longer than normal.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Thanks, it's a 8'6" straight blade btw but thanks for the help


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## iamhere (Jan 16, 2009)

4 High should be fine. With my Dodge I can go up to 25mph in 4 low and up to 55mph in 4 high but just because I can doesn't mean that I do or should. The only times you should ever use 4 low is if your stuck or in deep mud or for pulling something out like a bush, stump, another car, or a piece of equipment like a small tractor or something along those lines. 

Check your owners manual and it should tell you at what speeds you can travel at in each transfer-case "gear." Is yours an auto or a stick?

Like the other guy said just plow with the storm, why put the added stress on your truck trying to push the full accumulation of the storm when you can knock it out 2 or so inches at a time.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

It's auto, it's not that I want to but the trigger for the lot is like 6" cuz most semis can get thru anything below that


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## Milwaukee (Dec 28, 2007)

You would need 4L if it struggle in 4H.

And you wouldn't like 4L it shift so hard it jerky when 1 jump to 2 then 3 gear. 

Reverse forgot it too slowest like 5-10 mph= 3,500-4,000 rpm. I would shift to 4H when reverse.


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

In 17 years of plowing I have never used 4 lo. I can't see the benifit of trying to plow in 4 lo myself. 4 high makes the same amount of wheels getting power, and as long as you clear with the trigger of 6 inches, then go back and plow again after the storm, it shouldn't be a problem.


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## KJ Cramer (Aug 20, 2009)

4 hi should be fine, the owners manual will tell you to use 4L, but realistically, with a diesel and the low end torque they have, you shouldn't have any problems with 4H. Try it and see; its not that hard to change between the 2 if onr isn't working for you.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Ok thanks guys.


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## andcon83 (Dec 10, 2005)

I have never used 4lo either. Too slow I don't see any reason why you couldn't move 12" of snow with that truck in 4hi. Actually, I think the owners manual with this truck says to plow in 4hi.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

I ALWAYS plow in 4 lo...much easier on the tranny


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

Mick76;991675 said:


> I ALWAYS plow in 4 lo...much easier on the tranny


FALSE! easier on the fluid couple MAYBE easier on the transmission FALSE


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Lou....

I disagree and I don't want to get in a pissing match... your tranny works less in 4 lo because the fluid stays cooler.It circulates more disipating more heat causing the tranny to work easier AND LAST LONGER! Heat and friction are what kill tranny's.

Thats my opinion and I havn't had to change a tranny yet in my 14 years of plowing.


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## Evanbrendel (Jan 2, 2010)

in 4 low its going to take less power to push with the lower gears also but i have never ran out of power in 4 hi


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## jb1390 (Sep 23, 2008)

It keeps the tranny MUCH cooler to run in 4l. It absolutely is easier on it (the gearing occurs behind the transmission-running in 4l is easier on the tranny just like using lower gears 4.10 instead of 3.55). That being said, i hardly ever use it because it is too slow, and my engine screaming at 5k rpms is worse than just using 4h. I only use 4l in deep snow on steep hills. It keeps the fluid temps down to do it that way. (I also run 4000 lbs of ballast sometimes between the vbox and material) The truck gets heavy. I would never have a need for 4l on flat surfaces. Traction will not be helped either.


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## JB1 (Dec 29, 2006)

come to think of it I don't think I have ever had any of my trucks ever in 4 lo.


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## KJ Cramer (Aug 20, 2009)

I usually plow in 4hi and in 1st, get going about 15-20 right around 2000rpm, thats fast enough for me in the lots, 4Lo is way too slow for me and would be at 3500rpm doin 10mph. In the Ford manual it says for deep snow (i dont know their definition of that) use 4L, otherwise use 4H (it also says to plow in overdrive, which I don't because its too hard to drop into that position, its far easier to go all the way down to 1 and back to R for me than moving the 2 clicks between the R and D)but that is a generalized statement for all the models of my truck, with the diesel I can't imagine using 4L to plow, the constant forward reverse with that much torque I think you'd end up breaking a U-joint or drive shaft. When my truck clunks into 4L the whole truck twists with all the power being applied and brakes on and when you shift the trans in Lo you can positively hear and feel it shift, which means thats alot of power being transferred. 4L with a diesel and plowing, I think you'd tear things up on your truck. My .02


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

ajslands;991518 said:


> It's auto, it's not that I want to but the trigger for the lot is like 6" cuz most semis can get thru anything below that


If the trigger is 6'' why are you waiting until the end of the storm?


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## wellnermp (Dec 15, 2009)

In 15 years of plowing I have only used 4lo once. I was pushing through 3 feet of 1 week old wet snow.


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## FisherVMan (Jan 5, 2010)

All the guys that are saying they have never used 4 low are giving away the fact they are NOT plowing big storms offroad................ you cant plow over afoot of wet snow very long with ANY truck with ANY engine in high range without cooking the transmission. 
Plowing 15-20 miles per hour; on a hot top lot or driveway; pushing 6" of snow is nothing for High Range; everyone will agree with that . The guys that are sayiing the truck will do the plowing so much easyer in Low are dead right; and the temp of the fluid will be much lower no question about that ....................... thats a fact.
I plow driveways all day long in HIgh Range that are paved with 6-8" of snow . But when I plow gravel woods roads and there is a foot or more of snow I cant even plow a 1/4 mile of it on a normal day [20 degrees F] and my tranny temperture will go right off the clock It will run about 170-180F plowing driveways all day long, and never hurt anything, the minute I start pushing a foot or more of snow in high range it will imeadiately start to climb up. so the minute it hits 200-205F I just drop it into low range [if there is over a foot of wet snow you are NOT going to be plowing faster than 5-10MPH regardless of what you have] and my transmission temps will drop right back down to 180-190 right away, and it is the ONLY way I could keep plowing or I would FRY my tranny.........
So although we all plow in high range, and as fast as you want to on hot top, with light loads; but anyone that has never plowed in LOW range, will certainly get a chance to plowing big storms off road, as it is the only way not to get the tranny........... most everyone up here that plows woods roads . goes out at 1-2am to get the roads opened up so the trucks can get into the woods by 4am;[we get lots of storms with a foot or more many times during a normal season] and about everyone has smoked a tranny trying to plow in high range. So EVERYONE I know plows the tough stuff in LOW This whole line of thinking that if you have a huge desiel or V10 engine you can just keep on plowing in HIGH range is going to get an expensive education if they start that in over a foot of snow as NO TRANSMISSION will take it regardless of how the engine performs I certainly dont want to buy that transmission that plowed "3ft of wet snow in high range" as that sounds more like a job for a Walter Sno Fighter .................


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## jb1390 (Sep 23, 2008)

Very true fishervman-also true when you are plowing steep hills. Transmission temps are key. Alaska Boss always plows in 4l with his automatic. A diesel engine or v10 will cook the tranny even faster. That being said, 4l is never necessary unless tranny temps start to rise.


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## KJ Cramer (Aug 20, 2009)

FisherVMan;992030 said:


> All the guys that are saying they have never used 4 low are giving away the fact they are NOT plowing big storms offroad................ you cant plow over afoot of wet snow very long with ANY truck with ANY engine in high range without cooking the transmission.
> Plowing 15-20 miles per hour; on a hot top lot or driveway; pushing 6" of snow is nothing for High Range; everyone will agree with that . The guys that are sayiing the truck will do the plowing so much easyer in Low are dead right; and the temp of the fluid will be much lower no question about that ....................... thats a fact.
> I plow driveways all day long in HIgh Range that are paved with 6-8" of snow . But when I plow gravel woods roads and there is a foot or more of snow I cant even plow a 1/4 mile of it on a normal day [20 degrees F] and my tranny temperture will go right off the clock It will run about 170-180F plowing driveways all day long, and never hurt anything, the minute I start pushing a foot or more of snow in high range it will imeadiately start to climb up. so the minute it hits 200-205F I just drop it into low range [if there is over a foot of wet snow you are NOT going to be plowing faster than 5-10MPH regardless of what you have] and my transmission temps will drop right back down to 180-190 right away, and it is the ONLY way I could keep plowing or I would FRY my tranny.........
> So although we all plow in high range, and as fast as you want to on hot top, with light loads; but anyone that has never plowed in LOW range, will certainly get a chance to plowing big storms off road, as it is the only way not to get the tranny........... most everyone up here that plows woods roads . goes out at 1-2am to get the roads opened up so the trucks can get into the woods by 4am;[we get lots of storms with a foot or more many times during a normal season] and about everyone has smoked a tranny trying to plow in high range. So EVERYONE I know plows the tough stuff in LOW This whole line of thinking that if you have a huge desiel or V10 engine you can just keep on plowing in HIGH range is going to get an expensive education if they start that in over a foot of snow as NO TRANSMISSION will take it regardless of how the engine performs I certainly dont want to buy that transmission that plowed "3ft of wet snow in high range" as that sounds more like a job for a Walter Sno Fighter .................


For 1' plus, off-road, steep hills, long stretches, that could be very true, I'd might use 4L myself, but the OP, the reason for this thread, is plowing a "hot top" parking lot, with alot of back and forth and short runs compared to roads, he is not off-road, he is not going up a steep hill, he is not going to be plowing anything over 12" his trigger is at 6", not sure why he is waiting til 12". Most people on here plow commercial lots and driveways and NO ONE i know that plows businesses lets there be anything more than 6," thats an Alaska extreme north thing, and for the long drive, 1/2mile, I do once in awhile when they come to visit their vacation home, has been as bad as 14" of snow and 3' heavy drifting a good portion of the length, I plow in 4H, I watch all gages nothing moves, not my tranny temp, not my engine temp, and I usually plow that in D or 1 going about 15, no problems. I also have a V so maybe that helps. To each their own, but for the majority of the people who plow, they will seldom need 4L to do the job and never have any problems with their trannies.

We plow BIG storms, We plow on and off the road, so before you start thinking you are the king of plowing, your not. What works for you in your area is great for you, I wish you the best of luck, but here in the lower 48 we don't have the luxury of waiting until the storm is over to plow our accounts, my customers' lots (driveways not included) never see more than 6" on the flat, and I have plowed through several 16" plus storms. The key to keeping your equipment happy is to plow WITH the storm, every 2-4 inches is prime and professional, not waiting til >12" is on the ground. What works for you works for you, and it sounds like you have previous experience to back it up, I'm not bashing you, just dont bash me because I don't agree with you, my experiences are different than yours and are more relevant to the OP which is when and why I posted my thoughts on the matter.


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## andcon83 (Dec 10, 2005)

Last year I pushed 28" in high range...never use low...If I plowed driveways in low range I would be a week doing them.


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## FisherVMan (Jan 5, 2010)

KJ Cramer;992148 said:


> For 1' plus, off-road, steep hills, long stretches, that could be very true, I'd might use 4L myself, but the OP, the reason for this thread, is plowing a "hot top" parking lot, with alot of back and forth and short runs compared to roads, he is not off-road, he is not going up a steep hill, he is not going to be plowing anything over 12" his trigger is at 6", not sure why he is waiting til 12". Most people on here plow commercial lots and driveways and NO ONE i know that plows businesses lets there be anything more than 6," thats an Alaska extreme north thing, and for the long drive, 1/2mile, I do once in awhile when they come to visit their vacation home, has been as bad as 14" of snow and 3' heavy drifting a good portion of the length, I plow in 4H, I watch all gages nothing moves, not my tranny temp, not my engine temp, and I usually plow that in D or 1 going about 15, no problems. I also have a V so maybe that helps. To each their own, but for the majority of the people who plow, they will seldom need 4L to do the job and never have any problems with their trannies.
> 
> We plow BIG storms, We plow on and off the road, so before you start thinking you are the king of plowing, your not. What works for you in your area is great for you, I wish you the best of luck, but here in the lower 48 we don't have the luxury of waiting until the storm is over to plow our accounts, my customers' lots (driveways not included) never see more than 6" on the flat, and I have plowed through several 16" plus storms. The key to keeping your equipment happy is to plow WITH the storm, every 2-4 inches is prime and professional, not waiting til >12" is on the ground. What works for you works for you, and it sounds like you have previous experience to back it up, I'm not bashing you, just dont bash me because I don't agree with you, my experiences are different than yours and are more relevant to the OP which is when and why I posted my thoughts on the matter.


Hey KJ,
Hold steady; there was NOTHING in that post directed towards you??? and I actually had to go back and read your two posts?? to see what you was saying???? I do agree with you that he was asking about plowing in a paved lot, and I see what you are saying on all of it ,and agree with most of what you are saying compleatly . Your take, on plowing with the storm; is of course excellent advise, and I couldnt agree more. I guess I was thinking he was just asking about using low range in general and I guess he really wasnt??
I am certainly NOT the king of plowing, and never thought I was, and never really wanted to be. I was surprised you took so much offense to what I posted . The comment at the end was actually for the guy from SE Alaska that said he only ever used Low range once in his life and that was to plow" 3ft of wet snow; a week old" so for a post that really had absolutely NOTHING to do with you; or your posts. It looks like it got your dandruff up............. sorry if you took it that way; As it was not intended to ................. As far as my experence, or how we plow around here in the woods, compared to how guys plow paved parking lots there probably is a big difference. As far as what I have posted I stand by it compleatly; and if you have had good luck plowing big storms; in "high range" more power to ya! [I smoked a tranny in a brand new 1990 Chevy 3/4 ton one nite, trying to plow about 10 miles of woods road with around 15" of wet snow in "high range" at about 2am in the morning and was about 8 miles back in the woods; and that was before cell phones, so I got to walk out with no flashlight; and that was the end of me trying to hurry plowing .... My compitition here in town plows with a Dodge that has bald tires and no ballast and he also plows in high range all the time, and told me a few times it is the "only way to go and he has done it for years" . He has had to change out 5 transmissions in the last 3 years. Maybe it is how he does it or maybe he is getting poor rebuilds I dont know, However I am going to plow with what worked for us for the last 35 years, and you guys go for er; in HIGH range; and good luck to ya!!!
Be good and good plowing.............


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## KJ Cramer (Aug 20, 2009)

FisherVMan;992283 said:


> Hey KJ,
> Hold steady; there was NOTHING in that post directed towards you??? and I actually had to go back and read your two posts?? to see what you was saying???? I do agree with you that he was asking about plowing in a paved lot, and I see what you are saying on all of it ,and agree with most of what you are saying compleatly . Your take on plowing with the storm is of course excellent advise and I couldnt agree more. I think I was thinking he was just asking about using low range in general and I guess he really wasnt??
> I am certainly NOT the king of plowing, and never thought I was, or wanted to be. I was surprised you took so much offense to what I posted . The comment at the end was actually for the guy from SE Alaska that said he only ever used Low range once in his life and that was to plow" 3ft of wet snow; a week old" so for a post that really had absolutely NOTHING to do with you; or your posts. It looks like it got your dandruff up............. sorry if you took it that way as it was not intended to ................. as far as my experence, or how we plow around here in the woods, compared to how guys plow paved parking lots there probably is a big difference. As far as what I have posted I stand by it compleatly and if you have had good luck plowing big storms in high range more power to ya! My compitition here in town plows with a Dodge that has bald tires and no ballast and he also plows in high range all the time and told me a few times it is the "only way to go and he has done it for years" . He has had to change out 5 transmissions in the last 3 years. Maybe it is how he does it or maybe he is getting poor rebuilds I dont know, However I am going to plow with what worked for us for the last 35 years, and you guys go for er; in HIGH range; and good luck to ya!!!
> Be good and good plowing.............


How'd you know bout my dandruff??? Your OP had several things that I had said in mine, thats why I reacted the way I did, you also came out in the first sentence and said that people who plow in Hi haven't ever plowed big storms off-road, which just isn't true. I probably did jump a little hard, forgive me, we are due to get a big storm here tonight thru tomorrow night and the anticipation is killing me. Good luck to you as well, and as I stated in my post I'm not bashing you, people need to stick with what works for them, I think if you (the guy in the dodge) go thru 5 trannies in 3 years you are doing something wrong and need to take a look at that, I personally think he is blowing trannies because he shifts too quickly and romps on the gas as he shifts, that = short life on a tranny. You are correct too in saying that heat is your worst enemy with a trans, I typically plow in 1st which keeps my rpms up and coolant flowing more so than overdrive would. LO works for you and HI works for me, its that simple.

Now back to the OPs thread, Sorry for the Hijack.


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

i just got done plowing 26" and the only time i used 4 lo was when i was pushing snow that had been drivin on up a hill


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## andcon83 (Dec 10, 2005)

Just like putting on pants i guess...You ALWAYS put the left leg on first!!


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

Mick76;991689 said:


> Lou....
> 
> I disagree and I don't want to get in a pissing match... your tranny works less in 4 lo because the fluid stays cooler.It circulates more disipating more heat causing the tranny to work easier AND LAST LONGER! Heat and friction are what kill tranny's.
> 
> Thats my opinion and I havn't had to change a tranny yet in my 14 years of plowing.


Ok I don't want to get in to a pissing match either but wanting to offer some free education, and pointing out the obious that you have a 4 year old truck in your sig so you don't know if it will last 14 years LOL.

The transmission does not really work all that less, unless you lock it in first gear 4 low, when it goes for a higher gear ratio you start to undo what the reduction in the transfer case has accomplished putting stress on the transmission. Using 4 low may also result in more shifts which is "bad" for the transmission.

I agree that heat is really bad for most automatic transmission fluid, your not so much worried about keeping the transmission cool as you are the fluid. Not to say that a hot transmission is a good thing, its not, but the fluid will fall apart long (causing damage to the transmission ) long before the heat actually damages the mechanicals of an automatic transmission.

I hear a lot about friction and automatic transmissions. Could some one please explain this to me ? Friction is the enemy of all of your trucks moving parts including the engine, transfer case and windshield wipers. Friction leads to the failure of all of them.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

KJ Cramer;992148 said:


> For 1' plus, off-road, steep hills, long stretches, that could be very true, I'd might use 4L myself, but the OP, the reason for this thread, is plowing a "hot top" parking lot, with alot of back and forth and short runs compared to roads, he is not off-road, he is not going up a steep hill, he is not going to be plowing anything over 12" his trigger is at 6", not sure why he is waiting til 12". Most people on here plow commercial lots and driveways and NO ONE i know that plows businesses lets there be anything more than 6," thats an Alaska extreme north thing, and for the long drive, 1/2mile, I do once in awhile when they come to visit their vacation home, has been as bad as 14" of snow and 3' heavy drifting a good portion of the length, I plow in 4H, I watch all gages nothing moves, not my tranny temp, not my engine temp, and I usually plow that in D or 1 going about 15, no problems. I also have a V so maybe that helps. To each their own, but for the majority of the people who plow, they will seldom need 4L to do the job and never have any problems with their trannies.
> 
> We plow BIG storms, We plow on and off the road, so before you start thinking you are the king of plowing, your not. What works for you in your area is great for you, I wish you the best of luck, but here in the lower 48 we don't have the luxury of waiting until the storm is over to plow our accounts, my customers' lots (driveways not included) never see more than 6" on the flat, and I have plowed through several 16" plus storms. The key to keeping your equipment happy is to plow WITH the storm, every 2-4 inches is prime and professional, not waiting til >12" is on the ground. What works for you works for you, and it sounds like you have previous experience to back it up, I'm not bashing you, just dont bash me because I don't agree with you, my experiences are different than yours and are more relevant to the OP which is when and why I posted my thoughts on the matter.


Pretty much couldn't have said it better my self.

to the OP if you are worried about speed you don't need 4low


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## mercer_me (Sep 13, 2008)

I plow in 4hi most of the time. 4lo is esier on the tranny, but it's wicked hard on the front end and you get stuck esier.


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## the_experience (Feb 28, 2007)

All of you arguing that 4-low is harder on the transmission are absolutely wrong. Putting gear reduction downstream reduces the stress on everything upstream. Period. Several of you have mentioned the harshness of the shift. Generally speaking, transmission failure is not hard parts, but rather clutches or bands. When there is hard part failure it is usually because of friction failure. Harsh shifts are actually just quick shifts. You know what's great about quick shifts? There is less slippage of the clutches which means longer life.

The gear reduction of the transfer case reduces the shearing of fluid in the torque converter. Shearing the fluid in the torque converter is where torque multiplication comes from. It's also where the heat comes from so why not use a mechanical reduction do get the job done? I don't doubt that all you guys with big V-10's and diesels can get just about any load moving in 4-high, but you're fools if you think you're getting the job done without the aid of torque converter slip and multiplication. How many of you have trans temp gauges?

The argument that going up through the gears is just like starting out in 4 high is asinine. New Venture transfer cases have a gear reduction of 2.72. Many of you are showing Chevy 3/4 tons in your sigs which means a 4L80E/4L85E. First gear in a 4L80E is 2.482. Even all the way up in third gear the transfer case is providing gear reduction versus starting out in first-high range. It's not until you hit overdrive in 4 low that first gear high offers more gear reduction...and it's not much.

The Ford guys with the 5R110 do have slightly more reduction in 1st high than 4th-low, but again, it's not much and it doesn't compare with the reduction 1st-low gives you.

Is it harder on other drivetrain parts? Well...in theory, yes. The firmer shifting does put shock loads on parts...but so does spinning in 4-high and catching traction (and to a much greater degree). The additional gear reduction could potentially stress parts far more, but this is all dependent on the tires maintaining traction. If the tires break traction it's a moot point.

Plow in whatever gear works for you, but don't spout off misinformation about 4-low being harder on the transmission because it's simply not true and makes no logical sense...like when people argue that cold water boils faster or hot water freezes faster :stirthepot:

As for the OP...plow with the storm. It will be easier on your equipment no matter what range you use.


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## wellnermp (Dec 15, 2009)

Just to clarify Vman, I never said I had only used 4lo once in my life, just once when plowing. I try to plow with the storm, just works better for me and I feel like that is a good way of preserving my equipment. Whatever works for you is great and you should stick with it, but no need to try and make me feel bad about it.

As for the original post, what I was trying to convey, is that I personally in that situation would most likely stick to 4hi and try to get in there as frequently as possible/profitable.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

the_experience;992889 said:


> All of you arguing that 4-low is harder on the transmission are absolutely wrong.


 Who argued that its harder ? I argued it simply not that much easier, can cause other problems like over spining and burning out barings which is why the owners manual tells you not to plow in 4Low( but what do they know) and its not really necessary in 98% of all plowing situations Who here tows a heavy load in 4low ? In my first post I said what you are really helping is the fluid couple (torque converter) yes I know there is a difference.



the_experience;992889 said:


> Putting gear reduction downstream reduces the stress on everything upstream. Period. Several of you have mentioned the harshness of the shift. Generally speaking, transmission failure is not hard parts, but rather clutches or bands. When there is hard part failure it is usually because of friction failure. Harsh shifts are actually just quick shifts. You know what's great about quick shifts? There is less slippage of the clutches which means longer life.


Its nice to finally have somebody else who understands how an automatic transmission works. Shifting no matter how fast still causes clutch wear, my truck loves to make 3rd when in 4 low its really easy to do. Locking it in first (hi range) when the truck is not moving and the clutch can be fully applied reduces clutch wear to an absolute minimum. In the grand scheme of things do a few hundred shifts while plowing really matter ? probaly not.



the_experience;992889 said:


> The gear reduction of the transfer case reduces the shearing of fluid in the torque converter. Shearing the fluid in the torque converter is where torque multiplication comes from. It's also where the heat comes from so why not use a mechanical reduction do get the job done?


I agree and have said all along its about protecting the FLUID not the transmission.Its so nice to finally have somebody else here who understands that the pump (in the torque converter) is where all the heat comes from.

Why not use mechanical gear reduction? see my above comments. Slipping the converter is bad for the fluid, its been my expereince that this is not an issue when plowing with a modern truck. My 2500HD with a 4L80E always, starts moving or breaks traction by 500 RPM off idle. Modern trucks (3/4 tons) are designed to accelerate upwards of 16,000 pounds in 4 Hi. They also spec and design the fluids with a certain amount of shear in mind which is how they determine the change interval for dex 3 dino based fluids. Synthetic ATF is more stable and less likely to shear. Its an easy fix for sheared fluid, every 4-6 months pull the plug and dump in 6 new quarts, there are other benefits to keeping fresh fluid in there as well. This method has kept me plowing for 8 years and 175K on my original transmission.



the_experience;992889 said:


> I don't doubt that all you guys with big V-10's and diesels can get just about any load moving in 4-high, but you're fools if you think you're getting the job done without the aid of torque converter slip and multiplication. How many of you have trans temp gauges?


Even V 8s can get just about any load moving in 4Hi Most diesels and v10s are designed to accelerate loads upwards of 20K lbs, lots of the diesel heads here tow 12-14Klbs do they do it in 4 low?? I would even go so far as to say, the engineers who designed the torque converter had slippage and multiplication of torque in mind when they invented it. How is something doing its job a bad thing ? Again frequent fluid changes are the key to long life here NOT 4Lo



the_experience;992889 said:


> The argument that going up through the gears is just like starting out in 4 high is asinine. New Venture transfer cases have a gear reduction of 2.72. Many of you are showing Chevy 3/4 tons in your sigs which means a 4L80E/4L85E. First gear in a 4L80E is 2.482. Even all the way up in third gear the transfer case is providing gear reduction versus starting out in first-high range. It's not until you hit overdrive in 4 low that first gear high offers more gear reduction...and it's not much.


 Ok thats all true but some what misleading I will use a 4l80e for an example. In 4 hi a 2.482 first gear x 4.1 final drive = = 10.1762 gear reduction at the rear wheels. This is more then adaquate in most situation. In 4 low direct drive (3rd gear) where my truck finds it self quite quickly in 4 low 2.72(tranfer case reduction only) X 4.10 final drive = = 11.152 gear reduction at the rear wheels so you get less then 1 addition revolution of the engine BIG DEAL! The gear reduction is only worth while in 1'st and 2nd gear. Really find out how long your transmission stays in 1'st and 2nd in 4lo. The OP's post was about SPEED if your concerned about speed then you don't need 4lo its that simple really!



the_experience;992889 said:


> The Ford guys with the 5R110 do have slightly more reduction in 1st high than 4th-low, but again, it's not much and it doesn't compare with the reduction 1st-low gives you.


 Ok I don't know crap about Ford ratios, but this poves my point that 4lo only really helps when the transmission is in 1st and 2nd gears.

[]QUOTE=the_experience;992889]
Is it harder on other drivetrain parts? Well...in theory, yes. The firmer shifting does put shock loads on parts...but so does spinning in 4-high and catching traction (and to a much greater degree). The additional gear reduction could potentially stress parts far more, but this is all dependent on the tires maintaining traction. If the tires break traction it's a moot point. [/quote]
I agree 100 %

QUOTE=the_experience;992889]
Plow in whatever gear works for you, but don't spout off misinformation about 4-low being harder on the transmission because it's simply not true and makes no logical sense...like when people argue that cold water boils faster or hot water freezes faster :stirthepot: [/quote] 
On that same token don't spout off about 4Lo is so much better for plowing, when in reality its really not any better. Its a 50/50 there are pro's and con's to each. Plowing in 4lo is a pound(or more) of cure for an ounce(or less) of prevention, its kinda like quitting smoking after you have cancer. Regular fluid changes are really the worth while thing to do not 4Lo. Do a cost benefit analysis. Less drveways in more hours and spinning the crap out of everything in 4lo, OR faster times, less shifting and 8 quarts of ATF at $3.00 .quart every 6 months. We will leave the added benefits of frequent fluid changes out of this. About the water, if you change the polarity of the water you can actually get warm water to freeze faster then colder water and vice versa look it up

QUOTE=the_experience;992889]
As for the OP...plow with the storm. It will be easier on your equipment no matter what range you use.[/QUOTE]
After all that this is really the correct answer


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## FisherVMan (Jan 5, 2010)

Hey Wellnermp I am only joking with you .......................... dont wear your heart, on your shirt sleeve
This is just a friendly arguement and none of ya should get to excited about any of this??? To be honest I doubt that anyone will change how the plow after reading any of this, but I would say that
"The Experence" is pretty darn close to the bone; on all of this; but again the guys that are plowing parking lots with 6" of snow; none of them need to read this; if they are getting by fine in HIGH range. "Big Lou" is dead right about freq fluid changes; and I would say the "temp gauge" is the most important item going; with the freq fluid changes, the best medicine!
I plow in High Range myself all I can; but the bottom line on all of this is; up here where we are pushing alot of snow around most of the time; it is just NOT an option for me to plow in HIGH range because; my transmission temp guage, tells me ITS TIME to drop into LOW range and reduce the temps................. its that simple .
Up here; where every other person, has a pickup and an old plow on it; I would guess that 50% of the trucks are NOT on the original transmission, And I would guess that 90% of the ones that have had aleast one transmission job; It was caused from trying to push tooooo much weight; infront of the plow for toooooo long in HIGH RANGE got the trans fluid toooo hot; and smoked the tranny because of it. If you look at some of the data on fluid temps listed all over the internet it will spell it out as above 240F you have now ruined the fluid and it is turning into varnish but worse than that it has now hardened all the seals and you are about to head to the transmission shop .............. anyone that has a theory or fomula that doesnt agree with that and has had good luck plowing huge amounts of snow with HIGH RANGE I hear you and thats fine ..................... its pretty much just that simple . Go for it!!! At this point I am just hoping to get some snow so that I can plow in either range in any gear!!!

footnote: Watch this coming week for comments from DC and Virginia with guys trying to plow that 30" of snow that are all used to plowing 4" all the time in HIGH RANGE; and see if you dont notice some howling, going on about all of a sudden they have trannys slipping .................... stay tuned this week!!!


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

BigLou80;992566 said:


> Ok I don't want to get in to a pissing match either but wanting to offer some free education, and pointing out the obious that you have a 4 year old truck in your sig so you don't know if it will last 14 years LOL.


Lou , I've owned many trucks throughout the years...some new, some used... all I'm saying is I plow in 4 lo and havn't had to replace a tranny in ANY of them... Then again I don't beat the snot out of my truck like I see alot of people do...If 4 hi works for you then good, I'm sticking to the 4 lo like I've done for years... and for sh!ts and giggles I looked in my 06 manual for the "correct" way to plow... it doesn't state if you should plow in hi or lo , so it looks like its whatever tickles your fancy....

Good luck to whatever people decide to do and man it better start snowing soon or I'm going to go batty!


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## the_experience (Feb 28, 2007)

So...we've come to the conclusion that he should plow with the storm, plowing is hard on the fluid in the transmission and the more you push the harder it is on it, and 4-Low is a method of reducing the wear and tear on the fluid. 

So...everyone should pay attention to warning signs such as transmission temp and needs to observe the severe duty maintenance schedule for their particular vehicle. I'm not positive, but I believe the severe duty (this means pretty much anything more than commuting a fair distance at highway speeds unloaded) interval for the gear lube on an AAM 10.5 and 11.5 like you Dodge and GM guys have in the rear is something like 15,000 miles. Eek! I'll be the first to admit that I'm not great about maintenance even though I should know better (I was that auto tech that was supposed to sell those services and now I design the parts), but it's all a numbers game I guess...and a little bit of luck.


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## andcon83 (Dec 10, 2005)

From my 2007 owners manual:

4L (Four wheel low):

This setting also engages the front axle and delivers extra torque. You may never need 4L. It sends maximum power to all four wheels. You might choose 4L if you are driving off road in deep sand, deep mud, deep snow, and while climbing or decending steep hills. While operating in 4L, the gear ratio provides additional torque when conpared to 4H. The transmission gear shift will be exaggerated.

4H (Four wheel drive high):
Use this setting when you need extra traction, such as on snowy or icy roads or in most off road situations. This setting also engages the fron axle to help drive your vehicle. This is the best setting to use when plowing snow.


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## cpsnowremoval (Oct 28, 2009)

i put my 87 f150 in 4 high and first which is like a granny gear
got alot of seat time with todays storm and back out tomorrow morning at 4


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

the_experience;993500 said:


> So...we've come to the conclusion that he should plow with the storm, plowing is hard on the fluid in the transmission and the more you push the harder it is on it, and 4-Low is a method of reducing the wear and tear on the fluid.
> 
> So...everyone should pay attention to warning signs such as transmission temp and needs to observe the severe duty maintenance schedule for their particular vehicle. I'm not positive, but I believe the severe duty (this means pretty much anything more than commuting a fair distance at highway speeds unloaded) interval for the gear lube on an AAM 10.5 and 11.5 like you Dodge and GM guys have in the rear is something like 15,000 miles. Eek! I'll be the first to admit that I'm not great about maintenance even though I should know better (I was that auto tech that was supposed to sell those services and now I design the parts), but it's all a numbers game I guess...and a little bit of luck.


Where did you get your information? thats not a rhetorical question either I really do want to know. 
I was under the impression that GM was shipping them with mobil1 synthetic good for 100K at least I am pretty sure my window stick say "extended life axle fluid" or something like that.
you said you now design parts. are you an engineer ?


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## the_experience (Feb 28, 2007)

They may well have changed the spec, probably due to complaints about them not lasting or the cost of the maintenance. It's been a few years since I've looked at it, but I know it made me want to puke when I saw that. I'm a senior in a 4 year auto engineering tech program which means lots of design work on stuff I can never own the rights to. Let's be sure we make the distinction that I am not, nor will I ever be an engineer in terms of knowledge or payscale. Those guys get paid the big bucks to know how to do differential equations and take the blame for poorly designed stuff so please direct your complaints to engineers, no pee-ons like me. 

*edit* I can't seem to access AllData or Identifix right now, but a quick google search shows 1. Many people having problems with the big AAM's when they first came out and 2. The 15,000 number being thrown around a lot...but none of the posts seem to list anything newer than say a 2005 or so. My Amsoil literature says 100,000 normally, 50,000 severe duty. I would expect a factory fill of Mobil 1 to be about the same so I don't doubt that it said 100,000 on the sticker...but there's always that that fine print thing about stuff like severe duty. Do me a favor and check your owner's manual and see what it says. I'm really curious now. I have an inkling there was something wrong with those early rear ends and they used the lube and intervals as a scapegoat...but big business would NEVER do that, right?


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## farmer101 (Oct 4, 2009)

mercer_me;992614 said:


> I plow in 4hi most of the time. 4lo is esier on the tranny, but it's wicked hard on the front end and you get stuck esier.


i fear i may be about to show a great deal of ignorance on my part here. all i have ever plowed with is a 79 f250 in high range and that worked great. the only experiance i have with 4lo is off road and in the snow in my dd. i have been in several situations where i was stuck in 4hi, and thrown in down into 4lo and just walked right out. so i am just a little curious about your statement. i am only curious about the stuck part.lol. this is only because my experience has been the opposite of what you said. did you mean stuck worse when plowing? or just in general?


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## the_experience (Feb 28, 2007)

It all depends on what kind of stuck you are. Low range gives you far greater control over wheel speed which is why you'll see rock crawlers not only using low range, but running compound low ranges. Unfortunately, it also greatly increases available torque which is why it might cause you to get stuck in snow. You are far more likely to break the frictional loads on the tires and spin. On the other end of the spectrum is when you're wheeling in mud. You require tire speed to open the tread voids and to create enough centrifugal force to pull the mud away and clean them out. You get wheel speed by shifting to high range. A lot of mud racers run low range to get torque at the line, but by the end of the track they are in drive or even overdrive and bouncing off the rev limiter to maximize wheel speed and horsepower since both are influenced by engine speed.


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## DFLS (Dec 24, 2007)

When my transmission temp goes way up, usually on the 5th or 6th in a stretch of neighborhood driveways, I put it in 4lo and the temp goes down right away. Plow one or two in 4lo then go back to 4hi. Only overheats on back to back driveways(5+) with lots of uphill backing. Reverse is the hardest gear to get going for a transmission.


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## KJ Cramer (Aug 20, 2009)

To answer the Q on how many have trans temp gages, I do, and I know Dmaxs do as well, Its been my experience that diesel trucks have trans temp gages in them.

Moving on - Just to see what all the hype about using 4LO was, I tried it today on a 1/2mile long drive with heavy drifting 3' high and 14" of snow on the flat every where else. Looking past the painfully slowness of 4LO I saw no benefit (I honestly gave it an honest shot, I plowed the whole drive and parking area), I had more wheel spin which is not my friend and was causing me to slide sideways, Higher revs, or slower ground speed, and my trans gage didn't go down, nor did it heat up pass normal operating temp when I plowed for 6 hours before that. I noticed that FisherVman looks to have a half ton and that would explain the 4LO and the trans temp as everything would be of lighter duty i.e. trans cooler and the trans in general, but with my diesel Superduty and in my plowing environment, my trans doesn't know the difference between 4L and 4H as far as temp is concerned.

Back to quick shifting, please explain, the faster I can shift without grinding gears the better, or the faster you shift and get going the better, or, and what it sounds like to me, is that the brief grind in gears that happens when you shift to fast is ok for the trans??? I think I am misunderstanding you, I don't have a complex knowledge of an auto trans, I understand the basics of the fluid dynamics involved in making it up-shift or down-shift, but bands and clutches, blah blah blah, so please educate me. If it makes any difference I have the torque shift auto trans that came in my sig. truck.


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## the_experience (Feb 28, 2007)

There is no grinding when shifting gears on an auto because it doesn't have "gears" in the sense you might think. All the different ratios are created through a series a planetary sets rather than individually mating hypoid gears. Changing which element is the input, output, and stationary between the sun, planets, and ring gear is what gets the different ratios. There are no parts to grind because each shift is done by applying or releasing clutches and bands so it's smooth, but the longer it takes the the more slippage that occurs (which makes for a nice Buick-style shift) and the more wear. We're talking milliseconds here. Slow shifts under load are just like riding the clutch in a manual transmission truck. You might not hurt anything today or tomorrow, but you are doing long term damage.

Is your trans temp gauge factory or aftermarket? Modern vehicle gauges are controlled by the PCM and only turn on when it feels things are a problem, not in real time. Most modern cars are draining the battery at a stoplight with the defroster on, radio, rear defrost, etc, but the PCM won't turn on the charge light because it feels this is normal. I bet the idiot light in your truck doesn't come on, even when you dead head your pump against the relief valve. That's why. Hell, a lot of factory gauges like Ford oil pressure gauges aren't gauges at all. They have a switch that makes the needle point to "normal" at 7 psi and low below that. 

None of this really matters if you have an aftermarket trans temp gauge as that will be real time. It's quite possible you aren't heating up the transmission with the style of plowing you're doing and that's good. Run 4-high if you can get away with it. Just beware that just because the truck CAN do something doesn't mean it SHOULD. If you're pushing 6 inches of fluff on pavement no problem. If you're the OP trying to push


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## FisherVMan (Jan 5, 2010)

Hey KJ,
Cool that your open minded enough to try it anyway!
Yea the truck is a F150 and like you if I could just keep plowing in high range without the temps going up I would . It just doesnt work as if I tryed to plow what you did it would after a while heat up enough that I would have to drop down in 4L and let it cool off.Exactly the same as DFLS says his does; I am pretty careful as this truck is my daily ride the other 8 months of the year . I could probably push it more than I do but start starein at that guage when it goes over 205
I got a gauge off Ebay called a Glow Shift I think [TS-12] as it had a sending unit that just screws into one of the test points as I didnt want to get into droppin the pan and tapping it for the sending unit................. I dont know if that part to the tranny would give me as accurite a reading as being in the pan or not?? But I felt it would be close enough to give me the general feel for what it was doing .................. gauge is very cool looking and well done but when I tested it in boiling water it was off about 8 degrees and the lag time to rise up took about 15-20 secs from room temp which seamed a little slow to me.
My buddy has a Chev that has the digital readout and I really liked that! I had a guy call me yesterday that normally plows his own yard and he has tranny problems and asked me to go plow his yard . The banks were all froze and there was only about 4" on the ground from the last storm we had . I did the lot and then decided to try to push a bank back as he hadnt pushed it back far enough at the begining of the season so I was nudging the top of the banks[great way to get the plow hung over the bank!] with the V most of the way up, and in Low R, and busting the top off them and then I could easily just drop it down 6" at a time until I had a hole busted right thru them without ever hurting anything. In that situation because I just dont have the brut force you would have with your Super Duty then the Low Range gives me the torque in those super low gears to do it easy with out bunting on it and breaking something..................... if I plowed more I would certainly just get a 350 and a 9.5 XV plow but for a dozen driveways I just dont need one; and dont want to pound around all summer in a three quater ton truck


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## KJ Cramer (Aug 20, 2009)

the_experience;995187 said:


> There is no grinding when shifting gears on an auto because it doesn't have "gears" in the sense you might think. All the different ratios are created through a series a planetary sets rather than individually mating hypoid gears. Changing which element is the input, output, and stationary between the sun, planets, and ring gear is what gets the different ratios. There are no parts to grind because each shift is done by applying or releasing clutches and bands so it's smooth, but the longer it takes the the more slippage that occurs (which makes for a nice Buick-style shift) and the more wear. We're talking milliseconds here. Slow shifts under load are just like riding the clutch in a manual transmission truck. You might not hurt anything today or tomorrow, but you are doing long term damage.
> 
> Is your trans temp gauge factory or aftermarket? Modern vehicle gauges are controlled by the PCM and only turn on when it feels things are a problem, not in real time. Most modern cars are draining the battery at a stoplight with the defroster on, radio, rear defrost, etc, but the PCM won't turn on the charge light because it feels this is normal. I bet the idiot light in your truck doesn't come on, even when you dead head your pump against the relief valve. That's why. Hell, a lot of factory gauges like Ford oil pressure gauges aren't gauges at all. They have a switch that makes the needle point to "normal" at 7 psi and low below that.
> 
> None of this really matters if you have an aftermarket trans temp gauge as that will be real time. It's quite possible you aren't heating up the transmission with the style of plowing you're doing and that's good. Run 4-high if you can get away with it. Just beware that just because the truck CAN do something doesn't mean it SHOULD. If you're pushing 6 inches of fluff on pavement no problem. If you're the OP trying to push


So if it isn't "grinding" what is it that makes that "grinding" sound when I shift too fast and hit the gas and go no where but hear that "grinding" sound and why does it not just drop into a gear instead of making that sound.

As for temp gauge it is factory, but I do think it is real time, may not be as accurate as after market, but it does move from cold to normal and I would imagine that it could go to the yellow and then red zone on the gauge, it takes longer when it is cold out to warm, and if sitting idle it will cool down according to the gauge, so I believe that it is more than an idiot light or oil pressure gauge which I agree is just an idiot light. Unfortunately Ford doesn't assign a value to my engine or trans temp gauges as does GM and I think dodge, it just has a gauge that goes up and down an then has a yellow and then red zone, there is also an Idiot light that would go off if either got to warm. Speaking of idiot lights, when I start my vehicle there are a million of them that light up, lol, I think if I fart funny a light goes off, its sad at how many they have, people must just be dumb if they need that many lights, then the command center tells you a million other things. I am pretty sure that if something was out of "normal" it would let me know before it was bad. I'm also not an idiot, I've operated heavy equipment and drove dump trucks and can tell when I am over working something.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

So it turns out I only needed to use 4 lo a few times to push some large snow piles but 4 high worked good All day


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

the_experience;994342 said:


> Do me a favor and check your owner's manual and see what it says. I'm really curious now.


I looked and it says to check the fluid level every 7500 miles but I didn't actually see it call for changing it.



the_experience;994342 said:


> I have an inkling there was something wrong with those early rear ends and they used the lube and intervals as a scapegoat...but big business would NEVER do that, right?


I think about that every time some one calls toyotas junk for all thier recalls, its hard to imagine a large american corporation actually owning up to a problem they could balme on something else.
I need to do some work on my rear axle but its been 175K of 50% (harder then half the people out there) + usage. If I had just dealt with the bearing when it started making noise the rear exle would be fine.


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## andcon83 (Dec 10, 2005)

BigLou80;997515 said:


> I think about that every time some one calls toyotas junk for all thier recalls, its hard to imagine a large american corporation actually owning up to a problem they could balme on something else.


The sad part is the accelerator pedals that are being recalled are the ones made in the US. The Japan ones are fine.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

A foot of snow should require more than one push if you want to make life easier.


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