# Salt & Plowing



## Kmlawns (Dec 15, 2017)

I have the opportunity to bid some smaller commercial lots (5) restaurants roughly .5-1 acre lots . I haven't done much in the past for commercial plowing, these would also include mulching and clean ups. But after talking to a few buddy's that do some commercial they all have told me to do one ton minimum on salt no matter what even though they won't take a ton my price runs around $85 ton for material and they should roughly take me 30 'mins to plow and apply salt. So Im thinking $200 per occurrence on 1-3" and the owner advised me they usually had the lots cleaned and salted twice on normal 1-3" storms. So around $400 per storm.. What's everyone thoughts on where I'm coming in at?? 

Thanks


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Can you clarify mulching and cleanups?

Location is something you may want to mention.


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## Kmlawns (Dec 15, 2017)

This is not included in the snow bid, but the grounds bid is one spring bed clean up and new mulch and one fall clean up and new mulch added in the beds. They're all smaller with low maintenance grasses and shrubs.


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## Kmlawns (Dec 15, 2017)

Location is Nebraska


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

1olddogtwo said:


> Can you clarify mulching and cleanups?
> 
> Location is something you may want to mention.


That's lawn work, unrelated to the question at hand. He didn't mention the regular mowing as part of the deal either. Why would they hire a seperate company to do one but not the other? Just curious.
As to the plowing/salting, I need more info.
How about a diagram or a picture with some measurements? Where can you pile snow, etc?


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## Kmlawns (Dec 15, 2017)

My bad should of included that, they all have a side lot (smaller turf) attached that is the only turf on each property where snow can be piled. I don't have any pictures but all lots are laid out about the same, squared 150 by 180 roughly with one entrance with the turf on the backside the plowing will be pretty simple as far as any obstructions. I would think I should only be on site for 30mins on a smaller storm.

The owners son takes care of the mowing....


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Kmlawns said:


> My bad should of included that, they all have a side lot (smaller turf) attached that is the only turf on each property where snow can be piled. I don't have any pictures but all lots are laid out about the same, squared 150 by 180 roughly with one entrance with the turf on the backside the plowing will be pretty simple as far as any obstructions. I would think I should only be on site for 30mins on a smaller storm.
> 
> The owners son takes care of the mowing....


What about the sidewalks between the lot and the building? Who shovels that? Are they going to have it done before you get there, ir do tjey have s place to shovel it? Other than into the parking lot? The onlt grass is at the back of the lot. 
What about the back door area and the dumpster enclosure?
Make sure you are on the same page as the owner. Put it in writing.


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## Kmlawns (Dec 15, 2017)

Yes, there is the front sidewalk 80' and back door area we are in charge of that for the first plow after that they have to maintain it for refreeze and blowing. Dumpster is in the corner of the lot can get close to it with the plow and quick shovel work.

Am I coming in low on my bid??

Now hopefully I shouldnt be missing anything else..


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Hope you got more than one truck, because they will want them all done at the same time. Probably more hassle than you know. And why mulching twice a year?? Never heard of that, ever...


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

As mentioned, be able to handle whatever might come up. Say you had a 8 inch storm what would you need to be able to cover your bases. If it means hiring some help...do it, it might mean buying equipment, do it.

I am saying " Be Prepared " !! Have what you need if needed. 

Figure your costs and investments...those things are things you buy even if it does not storm/snow and also those things which if it does. They have to be paid. One way is to set a price to be paid regardless snow happens or not.

How close are these to each other ?? They are not all that large but still takes time getting to them. 

I would offer a price you know you can live with and pad that extra. If they say too much...then you can offer a lower price. But never give yourself away just to have work !!

You can ask what they had been paying but....remember they would still be using them if they were happy with them.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

My first restraunt was a nightmare. It always drifted terrible especially in the very tight drive thru. 
It was before I had any tractors, they would have excelled there.
The manager was a friend of mine, and that did help. She wss happy and we got paid.

I have one restraunt now. We clear entryway and dumpster area once, before they open, then they keep it up. The parking lot is done by Home Depot ( they lease building from them, right next door).
It's a Chinese buffet, the owners teenage daughter brokered the deal for her dad, who has limited English.
He told me, " I HOPE YOU MAKE EASY MONEY"
I wish I had 12 more accounts like this one!
They pay a flat monthly price.
I do their driveway at home too.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I think your price is fair. What's the bump for over 3"?
I prefer to charge for my equipment/time rather then argue over how much snow there was.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> Hope you got more than one truck, because they will want them all done at the same time. Probably more hassle than you know. And why mulching twice a year?? Never heard of that, ever...


I have, plenty of times.

And do you have a piece of equipment staged at every account with an operator so it can get cleared immediately?

Everyone is aware there is some lag time and a piece of equipment and operator isn't dedicated to a half acre site.

OP..why the full ton minimum?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Everyone is aware there is some lag time and a piece of equipment and operator isn't dedicated to a half acre site.


Had a customer, a dry cleaner, calls me at 7:30 am, about 6 hours into a 18 hour blizzard late April. Heavy,wet snow over a foot.
Whole town is shut down. 
He asks me, " when are you coming to plow?"
I told him, I was there at 5 am, plowed 8" of snow.
Now everything I've got is at the Catholic school ( 3 trucks, skid loader, and a sidewalk guy) 2 blocks away. It will be about 45 min till I can send a truck, we're going to finish this lot.
Doesn't help that they don't cancel school till 6 am. When you have to start by 5am if there's more then 4".
That storm was a nightmare.
We didn't get the dry cleaner back the next year, oh well.
I know 90% of the snow guys here are screwed if we get 6". Their spread so thin, no way they can cover all their accounts timely.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have, plenty of times.
> 
> And do you have a piece of equipment staged at every account with an operator so it can get cleared immediately?
> 
> ...


Of course you have Oomkes...For what possible reason are you mulching twice a year? The look? That's fine but you're gonna end up with a lot of mulch in the beds.
I never said he had to have a piece of equipment at every site, but with 5 of the same accounts how are you going to service them all when conditions call for it? You talking 2 hrs difference between 1st and last one started? How much "lag" time are you talking here?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

jonniesmooth said:


> Had a customer, a dry cleaner, calls me at 7:30 am, about 6 hours into a 18 hour blizzard late April. Heavy,wet snow over a foot.
> Whole town is shut down.
> He asks me, " when are you coming to plow?"
> I told him, I was there at 5 am, plowed 8" of snow.
> ...


Exactly! Agreed 100%.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

WIPensFan said:


> Of course you have Oomkes...For what possible reason are you mulching twice a year? The look? That's fine but you're gonna end up with a lot of mulch in the beds.
> I never said he had to have a piece of equipment at every site, but with 5 of the same accounts how are you going to service them all when conditions call for it? You talking 2 hrs difference between 1st and last one started? How much "lag" time are you talking here?


 No one said you have to throw down 3" of mulch every time you mulch.
You could throw down 1.5" twice a year and actually get better results than 3" once per year.

Not to mention if the contract pays monthly, it might be better to spread the labor and materials out over time like that.
Better results 
Better price management 
Everyone wins.
Every account is a little different.

I doubt he's dropping 6" of mulch year after year


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

tpendagast said:


> No one said you have to throw down 3" of mulch every time you mulch.
> You could throw down 1.5" twice a year and actually get better results than 3" once per year.
> 
> Not to mention if the contract pays monthly, it might be better to spread the labor and materials out over time like that.
> ...


Yeah, you couldn't work for me. Now go back to bed before your parents find out your still up.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan said:


> Of course you have Oomkes...For what possible reason are you mulching twice a year? The look? That's fine but you're gonna end up with a lot of mulch in the beds.
> I never said he had to have a piece of equipment at every site, but with 5 of the same accounts how are you going to service them all when conditions call for it? You talking 2 hrs difference between 1st and last one started? How much "lag" time are you talking here?


So much anger and hostility. Have you considered cutting oot the caffeine? Anger management classes?

Just because you haven't heard of it and I have creates this much resentment in you?

How do I service them all? Just like I currently service my customers. I keep the routes as short as possible to make money but also provide a high level of service that they can live with. It's really quite simple. Not sure what is so difficult to grasp.

Our routes are 5-6 hours. Some have dedicated equipment, more or less. One account that takes 4 hours to plow when empty is less than a half hour during the day because of the number of cars.

How long are your routes?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

tpendagast said:


> No one said you have to throw down 3" of mulch every time you mulch.
> You could throw down 1.5" twice a year and actually get better results than 3" once per year.
> 
> Not to mention if the contract pays monthly, it
> ...


Many contracts I have seen for commercial sites and Apartments-Condominium sites state mulch depth to be spread in them..Had a Condo site that the Moron actually went out and measured depth


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Many contracts I have seen for commercial sites and Apartments-Condominium sites state mulch depth to be spread in them..Had a Condo site that the Moron actually went out and measured depth


We had a shopping center where someone measured...it was an inch vs 1.5". We had to add.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> We had a shopping center where someone measured...it was an inch vs 1.5". We had to add.


Yep, got to have it in writing.
I could write a really good short story about one customer. I should have written down the specifics. 
I learned A LOT of things not to do on thst job.
My idea of "good looking" mulch is 3-4", I don't see the point of even doing 1.5", you can still see through it, nearly.
Meeting of the minds, muy importante.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jonniesmooth said:


> My idea of "good looking" mulch is 3-4", I don't see the point of even doing 1.5", you can still see through it, nearly.


On a new install...yes-3-4". That much every year is going to create problems in no time, unless you are removing the excess before adding the next 3-4".

3-4" of mulch just doesn't biodegrade in one season in the north. You're just asking for trouble adding that much every year.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> On a new install...yes-3-4". That much every year is going to create problems in no time, unless you are removing the excess before adding the next 3-4".
> 
> 3-4" of mulch just doesn't biodegrade in one season in the north. You're just asking for trouble adding that much every year.


Ok, we're on the same page. Adding 1.5" to bring it back to 4". 
I'm saying I've seen 1-1.5" put down, usually under the direction of a Realitor staging a house for sale and I think it looks silly. 
On the nightmare I referenced, I did remove the old mulch first.
I think I still have pictures of that job.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

So Mulch talk about Mulch makes me yearn for spring


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> So Mulch talk about Mulch makes me yearn for spring


I read a story about some town in Quebec using wood chips soaked in mag chloride on their roads...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> On a new install...yes-3-4". That much every year is going to create problems in no time, unless you are removing the excess before adding the next 3-4".
> 
> 3-4" of mulch just doesn't biodegrade in one season in the north. You're just asking for trouble adding that much every year.


3-4" is nothing, I won't get out of bed unless we're doing 6" minimum of volcano mulching. 
:terribletowel::hammerhead:


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I read a story about some town in Quebec using wood chips soaked in mag chloride on their roads...


Ryan sent that to me yesterday...Who is gonna clean up all the woodchips??


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Ryan sent that to me yesterday...Who is gonna clean up all the woodchips??


Ryan who???


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Ryan who???


Ryan......


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Ryan......
> View attachment 177098


Ninja snowplower...he's never seen???


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Many contracts I have seen for commercial sites and Apartments-Condominium sites state mulch depth to be spread in them..Had a Condo site that the Moron actually went out and measured depth


Sure
So?
Does the contract stats it must be installed all at once in a particular time frame?
They rarely do 
I HAVE seen that.
But it's not common.
Also if you can provide horticultural reference that it's better you can just keep trucking with your bmps, and ignore ignorant wording of contracts the majority of the time.

Those contracts are worded that way because they want to make sure they're not getting jipped.
Not because they're trying to micro manage your operations (usually)


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

So if I provide substantial evidence to the validity of a contract that I signed I don't have to fulfill it....?
You can't eat your cake and have it too...


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