# Salting More $$$ Than Lawn and Snow Combined?



## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

I'm looking at some properties and just throwing some rough numbers into the computer.

Adding everything up, salting is more $$ than just about everything else combined. As you can see here:










The last column is the total, 2nd and 3rd are quantity*price. Does this look right.. is this often the case?


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## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

Hey! Someone ELSE who has discovered the numbers! 
I will give you an example... There is a guy here near US that does salt...ALOT of it. He runs around 40 some trucks a night (mostly subs), just so he has massive amounts of area to salt. He now does WELL over $20,000 a night in salt alone. Many of his places, he doesn't really hardly make any money on in plowing - and he doesn't care. That is part of his strategy. He will go in and plow these places for prices that no one else can touch. he does this just so he has these places to salt. the plowing is sort of a "loss leader". 
His mowing and maintenance work isn't exactly the "finest around", either...but he doesn't care. he makes it up in numbers. After doing just over 2 mil last year, the numbers don't lie. he has built a heck of a business in a few short years. He isn't afraid to take chances, though.


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## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

So..just to make sure I hear you right, there's a lot of money in salt and this thinking of mine is correct?


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## Bruce'sEx (Sep 16, 2006)

More money in Salting then Plowing.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

Assuming you have the ability to get enough to last the season, store it, load it, and spread it in large quantities.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

I could name a few "big companies" in the milwaukee that hardly make anything off of plowing. Most of their money is made in salting and sidewalk crews.


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## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

I understand that it's more expensive for customers than plowing and more profitable.. I was just surprised that it ended up being more $$ than everything else combined for the rest of the year. Oh well.. works for me.  payup


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

Those numbers are not exactly how they Look. Salting requires inventory, that inventory is sold at a 50% margin gross profit, not net, so you end up with half the gross sales as gross profit before expenses, if your lucky. Plowing requires no inventory just equipment and manpower. Salting requires a large investment in start up cost, I would say more than plowing. Salting is harder on trucks than just plowing, I know I will have to debate this but that's what I have seen. Salting is used less later in the season because of warmer days, at least thats the way I have to do it. I am not suggesting that salting isn't very good but just make sure you add up all the numbers. If you are debating salt or not, you should be salting if you want to do commercial parking lots.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

John Mac is right.

You're plowing is 280 each time - fuel - maybe labor
Your salting is 280 each time - fuel - maybe labor - cost of salt - loader cost (fuel & operator).

Both of them have all the other stuff like ins, license, etc.

What is your profit on plowing x 12?
What is your profit on salting x 30?

Salting is still good money.


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## Sydenstricker Landscaping (Dec 17, 2006)

Salting is very good money indeed. But I highly doubt it will ever, ever surpass any of my landscaping/lawn care numbers. If you do alot of it and have the right places, then it may be possible.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

salting is where the money is at. I make more money is about 30 days of work during the winter months then I make in four months of summer work. Once I start doing more paver installs those numbers will change, but for now I am happy.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

lawnprolawns;754852 said:


> I'm looking at some properties and just throwing some rough numbers into the computer.
> 
> Adding everything up, salting is more $$ than just about everything else combined. As you can see here:
> 
> ...


I know people are saying that you have a product cost in your number, but you have to look at what you can generate in a event. Each salt/liquid truck will typically cover three plow routes. So the revenues are way higher than a night of plowing even after you take out salt cost.There is also way less trucks on the road and less labor on the clock.

On another related topic, you may want to revisit some of your numbers. We have always got a few more plow/salts than you guys in Metro "D". But over the last two years i think you have averaged more than 12 plows and for sure way more than 30 salts. I know 3 years back we only plowed 6-8 times in metro "D" but salted 55-60 times.

just my 2 cents


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

> salting is where the money is at. I make more money is about 30 days of work during the winter months then I make in four months of summer work. Once I start doing more paver installs those numbers will change, but for now


Burkart, every ones numbers are different depending on what your summer work is, how much you do in the summer and profit margins. My point is this, salting looked like poster was making alot of money if you he did not realize the actual costs involved. This thread was stating that salting is double the profit in a years time than all other service provided to a particular property and I doubt that is the case after you consider the expense involved to provide salt service and take into consideration that your gross profit is half of what your sales are. Take the $8400 number that was stated, gross profit on that is $4200 @ a 50% margin, if you double your salt cost. Not double $7097.50 that the other services cost. Then take out the other expense's to provide that service ie: truck, salt, storage, loader etc. and the number gets a lot smaller. The other service provided was $7097.50 gross but the provider keeps more of this money percentage wise than the salting service because it is all service, his expense's does not include inventory like salting does. Know you have to consider time involved, equipment involved etc to make a accurate comparison. After considering all this you still could make more on salting but just use all the numbers.


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## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

To clear things up, I was not talking about profits or how much I make, just about how much the customer will pay. These are super rough numbers, just to get an idea of a few things. I know salt has a lot of expenses involved with it. Anyways... thanks for the info everyone!


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

That is exactly how I took it, you gross sales. The responses and the assumption by you and others that salting is " more $$$ " , equating to more profit.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

Salt salt salt>>>


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

I like it on my fries please.


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## grasmancolumbus (Mar 4, 2008)

John Mac;756028 said:


> I like it on my fries please.


ill take a shake with that to please


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## Corman (Oct 4, 2008)

I know of a guy who invoices $40,000 - $50,000 per salting episode


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## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

I know someone that does close to $100,000!


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

lawnprolawns;754852 said:


> Adding everything up, salting is more $$ than just about everything else combined.
> Does this look right.. is this often the case?


No, this is not the case. You're math is fuzzy.......

There is no money to be made by salting.

Please call ~ I can help you by taking this burden off your shoulders.


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## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

Jim, I'm sure you'd love to.


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## Ne1 (Jan 15, 2007)

Runner;754997 said:


> Hey! Someone ELSE who has discovered the numbers!
> I will give you an example... There is a guy here near US that does salt...ALOT of it. He runs around 40 some trucks a night (mostly subs), just so he has massive amounts of area to salt. He now does WELL over $20,000 a night in salt alone. Many of his places, he doesn't really hardly make any money on in plowing - and he doesn't care. That is part of his strategy. He will go in and plow these places for prices that no one else can touch. he does this just so he has these places to salt. the plowing is sort of a "loss leader".
> His mowing and maintenance work isn't exactly the "finest around", either...but he doesn't care. he makes it up in numbers. After doing just over 2 mil last year, the numbers don't lie. he has built a heck of a business in a few short years. He isn't afraid to take chances, though.


I think I know who your talking about. Did not know he did lawns also? How many salt trucks does he own?


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## shott8283 (Feb 17, 2008)

if your a small time gig and just plowing.. would it be a good idea to invest in a hitch salter and start small and turn those profits into larger equipment/acounts?


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## lawnprolawns (Oct 31, 2008)

shott8283;757162 said:


> if your a small time gig and just plowing.. would it be a good idea to invest in a hitch salter and start small and turn those profits into larger equipment/acounts?


You'd be amazed at what you can do with a hitch-mount salter.. haha. I spread 1 3/4 tons every event with bagged salt.. it's a lot of lifting, but it works. The salter was like 400, a cheap easy way to get into salting. Now, next year I'm looking at either a large V or a dump with a tailgate salter, but I'll cross that road when the time comes.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

lawnprolawns;756203 said:


> I know someone that does close to $100,000!


pffft i know someone who does 8bazillion a night, ha beat that. 

in all honesty when I break it down to *REAL* profit per hour my numbers are all very similar for everything i do


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## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

I really don't know how many salt trucks he is running,....I do know that he ordered and pre-paid for 5000 yards of salt, though. This guy has the system down....


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

terrapro;757174 said:


> pffft i know someone who does 8bazillion a night, ha beat that.
> 
> in all honesty when I break it down to *REAL* profit per hour my numbers are all very similar for everything i do


I agree with you. But the way I look at it is seasonal. Yea, I make (use to) $200 per hour plowing, but I'm only doing that for MAYBE 80 - 100 hours a season. Where mowing I'm doing $40/hour for 500 - 600 hours a season.

And I know a company that is spreading salt and making 2.4 tri-zillion every hour or was that in a season? No, No, it was per application.payup


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Runner;757302 said:


> I really don't know how many salt trucks he is running,....I do know that he ordered and pre-paid for 5000 yards of salt, though. This guy has the system down....


Imagine having $350-400,000 sitting around for salt


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## Corman (Oct 4, 2008)

Bottom line, there is profit to be made in salting. To make the HUGE $$$$$$$$ you need the right equipment, staff and contracts. It's not free money and if you get greedy, you most likely will crash and burn and kiss your reputation goodbye.


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## jgoetter1 (Feb 23, 2007)

No surprise to me. Depends on the type of account and customer traffic involved.


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

Did you ever type out something really long and then accidentally hit something that makes it disappear? Yeah, I just did that, F************ck!

Ok here is the jist of it though:
I was thinking of expanding by subbing out most of the plowing and salting myself. I spent the $200 and sat down with my accountant and we went over the numbers. We based it on spreading about 300 tons per year for the first year. He figured my TOTAL cost, depreciation on loader, salters, and trucks, cost of salt, labor, maintenance, fuel, loader to load trucks, insurance, cost of the salt bin and filling the salt bin, advertising, cost of rent, just about everything you could think of at $45,000 per year total cost. 

This was an eye opener because he thought of things I really wouldn't have. He was good, he did real numbers not that funky IRS math we are all familiar with.

We had to make some assumptions, like how much salt was going to be, how long a salter lasts, how long a truck lasts, how much snow we get, and how much one truck can plow in a night, etc.

So what we came up was this:
5 trucks plowing 40,000 square feet per hour for 6 hours= 1.2 million square feet
Based on 20 pounds per 1,000 square feet we would use 12 tons per event
We have averaged 25 saltings per year here over the last 5 years so 12x25=300 tons

Now because salt prices vary he said the best thing to do is base the numbers on a cost plus basis. We figured $250 plus what I pay for the salt for pricing. That way the numbers are consistent throughout the calculations. To make things easy we figured salt at $100 per ton, with the $250 mark up per ton salt would be charged at $350 per ton. This way it doesn't matter if salt prices go up or down, the $250 mark up is consistent.

Income:
Salting: 300 tons x $350=$105,000

Plowing: Subs at $75.00 per hour, but they bring in $120 per hour in billing= $45 per hour profit.
$45 per hour x 6 hours per truck x 5 trucks x 20 plowing events per year =$27,000 per year

So income of $132,000 per year -$45,000 per year cost = $87,000 per year net.

What if it doesn't snow? He said the numbers don't all go out the window. He said you can pretty much figure $35,000 in expenses, but you can carry all that salt over to the next year. But to be safe he said take $35,000, add to it what I need to make to pay the bills and survive, and have that amount worth of annual contracts.

So I sat back and looked at the big picture. 
Me, and one employee would each be out salting for 5-6 hours every time it snowed, like I said about 25 times per year. 
I would have to deal with 5 subs and the issues that come with that. (My two trucks would have plows on them and be used as reserve in case of no-shows, break downs, help out plowing in blizzards, etc.)

So is it worth it? I have decided it is. And this is the direction I am planning on going. I think the key will be the subs. Find good guys, with reliable trucks, and take care of them. I will through some bonuses at them for showing up, or at the end of the year if we have a good year, etc. Keep them happy because other than the weather, they can make or break me.

Just my $.02.


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## cramerky (Apr 12, 2009)

Ipushsnow - I live near Milwaukee, if you are looking for snow plow subs for the 09-10 season let me know. I am extremely reliable, new truck, new equipment, plowing experience.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

IPushSnow - How are you averaging 25 salts per year? Are you talking just salting? or plowing & salting? Just curious because I am 70 miles from you and there is no way I would even come close to 25 salting events.


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

WIPensFan;778651 said:


> IPushSnow - How are you averaging 25 salts per year? Are you talking just salting? or plowing & salting? Just curious because I am 70 miles from you and there is no way I would even come close to 25 salting events.


Yeah, we salt at the end of every storm we plow, we salt rather than plow snowalls an inch or less, and salt with freezing rain, thaw and re-freezes, etc. Add it all up its been actually well over 25 the last 2 years, but 25 is average over last 8 years.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Ipushsnow;778724 said:


> Yeah, we salt at the end of every storm we plow, we salt rather than plow snowalls an inch or less, and salt with freezing rain, thaw and re-freezes, etc. Add it all up its been actually well over 25 the last 2 years, but 25 is average over last 8 years.


Gotcha, thanks for clearing that up. The last 2 yrs. have been good, but the previous 5 were lean. Good luck with the new venture.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

25 is the average saltings we've had over the last several years, until the last two years when its been quite a bit higher


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

I would think you Wisconsin guys got more than that.  

We get double that amount here. Fortunately lake effect is our friend.


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