# How to word per push in a contract?



## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Hi guys, did my first quote for a commercial account (do everything as a sub now). I drew up a half assed contract and let my lawyer take it from there, changing everything...

She called me and said she wasn't sure how to word a per push definition for it to hold up in court. It was fine, we made it work with per event, and my charges doubled, tripled, however they needed to get paid on a per push basis pretty much. For future quotes though, I'd much rather have per push layed out in increments and not per storm.

She said she would look into it for next time, but I figured I'd ask you guys what yours say? Maybe my lawyer is being to literal with it? Either way, would like to call her again with some ideas to explain it better than "well, every time I have to plow or shovel the sidewalks"

Thanks guys. I couldn't really find what I was looking for using the search.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I use per visit...per clearing. HTH
Most of the legal contracts by lawyers have a glossary of definitions for terms so it would just be a matter of you defining per push
FWIW I used to use per push but some of my customers thought it meant every time I dropped the blade and drove forward on their lot...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Maybe try using the words "each visit" when describing each time you go service the account.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> I use per visit...per clearing. HTH
> Most of the legal contracts by lawyers have a glossary of definitions for terms so it would just be a matter of you defining per push


Beautiful minds think alike...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Thanks guys. She actually suggested per visit, but I thought it would get confusing with sight checks, and the times I just salt. I will suggest per clearing, but like said above, there is a definition part of the contract so I guess she would have cleared it up. I'll see what she finds out too. I'm her only plow guy, but she knows a few people who have different plow guys throughout the city.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

I try to sell only seasonals to commercials but many still want per push. 

I explain if they need to be open by 7am or it piles up to 6" or more they will have mutlitple charges that day/event. Im not waiting until the lot is full of cars or a foot deep to plow it. 

Per push means every time we come and drop da plow, we will clear the lot and you get charged. 

I give them a 2-4, 4-6, 6-12 big lots or small lots a 2-6, 6-12 price. 

So if there is 4" at 6 am, I'll clear it and charge one rate. Snows more I come again, for another charge. If they get drifts and call for a service call, I plow again I charge again.
(This just happened this weekend) a small 1 acre mall just dropped over $1200 on one storm. Has some hand work/salting included. 

I tried to tell them to go seasonal and we will keep it serviced but some people just know snow better I guess. Glad they didn't looks like they will be spending well over my quotation.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

I use this in my contract and have no issue's. 
So if x amount of snow falls then they get charged the price listed.
*
Exhibit B

Per Storm Service Pricing
Taxes added into the final bill for each event

Plowing & Sanding with Sand / Salt at 3" mark *

2"-3.9" storm $____.00 
4"-6.9" storm $____.00 
7"-9.9" storm $____.00 
10"-12.9" storm $____.00

From 13 inches on up there will be an additional cost of $____.00 every 1-3.9 inches

*Ice Storms and 1.9 or less Inch storms*

In the event that there are icy conditions or 1.9 inch of snow or less that warrant sanding with Sand / Salt, Said application of Sand / Salt will cost $_________ per application.

For 1.9 inch storms or less this service will be completed upon verbal orders from you or your site manager.

*Sidewalks / Stoops - (Sanding done with Rock Salt)*

2"-3.9" storm $_________
4"-6.9" storm $_________
7"-9.9" storm $_________
10"-12.9" storm $_________

From 13 inches on up there will be an additional cost of $____.00 every 1-3.9 inches


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

cjames808 said:


> I try to sell only seasonals to commercials but many still want per push.
> 
> I explain if they need to be open by 7am or it piles up to 6" or more they will have mutlitple charges that day/event. Im not waiting until the lot is full of cars or a foot deep to plow it.
> 
> ...


Not many people around here with seasonal. The ones that did, don't want them anymore after the last 5 years we've had 3 with less than 8"...



MSsnowplowing said:


> I use this in my contract and have no issue's.
> So if x amount of snow falls then they get charged the price listed.
> *
> Exhibit B
> ...


That is actually pretty close to what mine is now. Problem being "per storm". With the rates doubling and adding a percentage then doubling again it gave the guy sticker shock. Do you still charge per push, or by the amount of snow for a storm? I'd like to charge per push and not per storm. I BSed around it by telling him it's so he's not shocked once he sees the invoice after I've plowed the property 3 times. This way he knows what the price will be depending on storm amount and assuming I only salt once. I think it worked, he said he'd get back with me though...

By the way, why do you have snow plowing starting at 3", but your price points start at 2"? Just something that caught my eye.


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## Mike NY (Feb 2, 2009)

You might want to be careful with the word "Clearing"
*Definition of clearing*

1: the act or process of making or becoming clear


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## White_Gold11 (Jan 4, 2016)

Plowing- $....per time
Walks-$... per time
Sanding-$...per time
Simple,easy, and effective IMO


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> Do you still charge per push, or by the amount of snow for a storm? I'd like to charge per push and not per storm.
> 
> By the way, why do you have snow plowing starting at 3", but your price points start at 2"? Just something that caught my eye.


Well I go by the amount of snow for the storm regardless of the amount of pushes.

Anything under 1.9 inches is sanded and above 2 inches get's plowed.

So if we get a 2 1/2" storm it has to be plowed before sanding thus the 2" - 3.9" inch start.

But the trigger is 3" which gives us leeway to wait until storm end if it is under 3" so only have to do one push and then sand/salt the site.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

MSsnowplowing said:


> Well I go by the amount of snow for the storm regardless of the amount of pushes.
> 
> Anything under 1.9 inches is sanded and above 2 inches get's plowed.
> 
> ...


Have you ever been screwed from "per storm" prices? I basically just figured my prices based on how many pushes I'd do with the storm amount, but I just don't feel real comfortable with that. I feel like I'll get hosed for some reason.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> Have you ever been screwed from "per storm" prices? I basically just figured my prices based on how many pushes I'd do with the storm amount, but I just don't feel real comfortable with that. I feel like I'll get hosed for some reason.


I set the prices not the client. 
They either accept them and sign a contract or they don't.

So no I don't get hosed.

Just bid accordingly and you will make money.

One last thing, on the bigger storms, your not there to try and clean cut places, your there to open up the roads and lots for emergencies, at storm end is when you do the clean ups.

So for example, say there is a place takes 1 hour to plow and clean cut it after a 3 inch storm.

Let's say this is what I charge.
2-3.9 $200
4-6.9 $275
7-9.9 $375
10-12.9 $500
and every 13" over 1-3 is $150.
-(notice the price increases the higher amount of snow that falls, from $75 to $100 to $125 and finally $150)

So you get a 9 inch storm, you go there around the 3" mark, your just opening up roads the parking area, maybe a few spots, your only there 20 to 30 minutes maybe less, maybe a little more, all depends on the property.

the next run thru around the next 3" same thing,
and at storm end you clean up.

Time spent 1 hour 40 minutes roughly, could be a little less or a little more -(again depends on the property).

Say your expenses are $75 an hour and you spend 2 hours there total for the entire storm.

Your cost $150, you charged $375 and made a $225 dollar profit.

Say it's a 3" storm, so you spend $75 and charge $200 making $125 for 1 hour of work.

If the place takes say half an hour to 45 minutes you charge the same and you make a little more.

Less than half an hour, you charge a little less.

So no matter what, you should be making expenses and profit every hour that you are plowing.

Now there are guys that well charge the same price every time they push snow but in my neck of the woods that doesn't work -(I know I tried that in the beginning and kept losing the bids till I wised up and changed my format to match others)

The key to this is talking with the clients and explaining how it works then they know what to expect.
So they know in a big storm, your not going to be there for hours trying to clean it up, 
your coming in clearing the lanes, the lot, a few parking spots and doing this till storm end and then cleaning up.
don't worry about trails -(unless they are big ones)
Never had any problems with clients because I talk to them and explain how things work.

So in the end you pay your bills and make money.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> Have you ever been screwed from "per storm" prices? I basically just figured my prices based on how many pushes I'd do with the storm amount, but I just don't feel real comfortable with that. I feel like I'll get hosed for some reason.


I personally wouldn't do per storm. My opinion is that you can get screwed way too easy. Obviously it works for MS and many others so I'm not arguing against it necessarily, just saying I won't do it. Residential's would be a different story I think. I can see giving pricing for say a storm up to 6" and then another price for higher amount storms. But that would work ok for me because all my Residential's are 2nd day service. So either way they only get serviced once.

Here is an example. I have 3 motels on my route. Typically they get serviced early morning to open up drive lanes and then come back after the 11am check out time to finish clean up. So normally for a snow event in the 2-4 inch range you service them twice. No problem figuring out per storm pricing. But sometimes they have a few cars stay longer so you have to come back a third time, especially for the roach motel variety. In this case you would need to have a limit on amount of times the property gets serviced for this per storm price.

Per push they know that they have to pay full price wether you are plowing the whole lot or coming back to clear the last 3 spaces. So it also cuts down on return trips, and they aren't so annoying if you do because you get push price.

Two of my motels are the roach motel type. They take 20-30 min for a full push. They are hourly but with a 1 hour minimum, so on these small lots it's essentially per push. $85 each time I show up no worrying about how many trips. We had a big storm last night and today, got 14". Got them cleared out after 11. Still a few cars in the lot when I left. They called back 2 hours later when the cars where gone, and yep another $85 to push 3 spaces. Then the other one called and needed the fresh city berm in front of the property pushed, you guessed it, $85 again. Literally took longer to get turned around than it did to push the berm. You could obviously have all this covered in a contract for all the what ifs and when then we blah blah. Or you can have one that says every time I show up it costs xxx.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

MSsnowplowing said:


> I set the prices not the client.
> They either accept them and sign a contract or they don't.
> 
> So no I don't get hosed.
> ...


Maybe it's because I'm just used to making money every time I do a route (per push) rather it's sidewalks, plowing, or salting I feel like I'd be leaving money on the table. I'm pretty confident in the prices I gave, it's just something new to me. I have another guy interested next week so I'll be talking to my lawyer again to see what she's found out. Most of my work is through another contractor, and this job is so small it would be pretty hard to lose money, so this isn't a bad one to see how the "per storm" works. I'm just used to a per push, so it's new to me. Plus I've had a few beers, so things might make more since tomorrow


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

MSsnowplowing said:


> I set the prices not the client.
> They either accept them and sign a contract or they don't.
> 
> So no I don't get hosed.
> ...


We were typing at the same time lol.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

ktfbgb said:


> We were typing at the same time lol.


LOL yes,

And on the side, I cover that too as I also do several hotels.

Clean up is after 11am checkout and if they have cars move after I have been there and cleaned up then I charge.

*Additional Costs that may occur for Seasonal Service* *or Per Storm Service*

*Taxes added into the final bill if these services are used.*

*Major Blizzards for Seasonal Service*
Any one storm over 13 inches there will be additional costs:
For over 13 inches, there will be additional cost of $___.00 every 1 to 3.9 inches for plowing.
For over 13 inches, there will be additional cost of $___.00 every 1 to 3.9 inches for sidewalks.

*Extra Plowing - (service call)*
If you ask us to come back the following day after we have been there and cleaned up the roadways and parking spots, there will be an additional charge for this; it will be a cost of $___.00 an hour, minimum 1 hour.

*Extra Sanding for Roadways and Parking Lots - (service call)*
In the event that additional sanding is needed on non-storm days for melt off from roofs, drains, etc...
Said application will cost $___.00 per application

*Melt Off, Icy Conditions for sidewalks - (service call)*
Salting for icy conditions on non-storm days for melt off from roofs, drains, etc...
It will be at a cost of $___.00 an hour, minimum 1 hour and a cost of product of $___ dollars per bag used.

*Skid steer usage for clearing and relocating snow - (service call)*
Machine cost is $____.00 for pick up and drop of the machine, diesel fuel used, etc...
It will also be at a cost of $___.00 an hour, minimum time 2 hours. - (this is for the machine, plow trucks and spotters)

Any of these service calls would only be completed upon verbal orders from you or your site manager.

All in the contract, I cover my bases having learned the hard way.

My contract is 9 pages long and I spell it all out so there are no surprises.

Of course page 1 is just cover, pages 2-8 is the meat and last page is the signing page.

In the beginning it was only 3 pages long but as I learned it grew.

Some may say it's too long but in this day and age you have to be clear in your contracts.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

It all comes down semantics lol. We are all basically charging and operating the same way. It just comes down to wording and billing method, but seems like if given the same property and the same storm we would probably end up within 10% of each other.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> It all comes down semantics lol. We are all basically charging and operating the same way. It just comes down to wording and billing method, but seems like if given the same property and the same storm we would probably end up within 10% of each other.


Does your contract say "per push" or does it word it differently? I might say "per plowing" and "per clearing" for sidewalks.

Her office opens tomorrow. I'll give her a call and see what she found out. She said she'd write me another contract for free since it was her who didn't know how to word it and I can use that from here on out.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

So mine are all hourly, or time and material, if you want to call it that. I have a minimum of one hour for the plow. Most of my accounts take under an hour so it's basically per push because they pay the minimum charge every time I show up. Contract says that when I leave the lot, time resets and a new minimum applies next time I drive back onto the lot. 

I know there are a lot of arguments against hourly, you just have to set up minimums right. The businesses in town are accustomed to it and want it that way for the most part. There are others that like seasonal too but I don't have any seasonal commercials this year. The other guys I know, myself included, usually call per push pricing "each service". Or per trip, or per visit. Then in definitions sections of the contract it would be outlined what a service, trip, or visit was. We know what per push means, but most clients don't until you educate them. I don't think I would use per clearing since that could be argued that a clearing means that's the price they pay to have the lot clear of snow.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

I base it on time but structure by inches. 
That way x amount of snow falls the client knows exactly how much they are paying.


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## Nwplawncare (Jan 1, 2018)

I don't think charging by inch would work around here lots of cheap people! you'd charge say 100$ for 3 inches an they'd say well I only measured 2.75... I do per visit an it works out pretty good if we get a lot of snow I have to do 2-3 or more visits so i get paid more with more snow with out nit picking over inches.


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