# Starting a Snow Plowing/Lawn Care Business



## thefunkyone

Hello,


New to the forums here. Some friends of mine and I are planning on starting a lawn care and snow plowing business. I was hoping to get some basic ideas on what to look for in plowing equipment, including the trucks. 


We plan on running two trucks. We are leaning more to Ford F-250/350's or GM 2500/3500 trucks. Our plan is to plow just about anything we can. Residential or Commercial. It doesn't look like we will provide other services such as shoveling or salting although that might change. 


Could I get some pro's/con's on trucks? GM v.s. Ford (without starting a ford/chevy war lol) 

Gas v.s. Diesel etc.... 

Plows- What should we be looking for, doing a mix of commercial and residential? V Plow? Standard? 

Thanks!


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## thefunkyone

BTW- I read the newbie thing and although I personally have no experience one of my friends has been doing the lawn care and snow plowing thing for years. He will be helping to train all of us newbies.


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## merrimacmill

First off, watch out for partnerships. It never works out. OK I'm sure at least one person will pipe up now saying about how they've been in a partnership for 20 years and its been great. BUT I've never seen it happen. 

Second, you will have to offer shoveling, and salting services if you get anywhere near commercials. 

Third, as for a truck the brand is all personal preference. And since it seems you don't have one, it is whatever is the best price and most economical. Go for a 2500/250, gas, 8 foot blade. Thats all you need. You'll get a bunch of guys telling you "oh you need a diesel" but you really don't. If you're towing a 8500 pound skid steer on a 22 foot construction trailer on a daily basis, OK get a diesel. But your not, don't waste the money. And I do have a diesel and I love it. I always drive it just because I like it. But I still have no idea what I was thinking justifying the extra $10,000 or whatever it was. 

Just be cautious, its not as easy as lots of people think. And do it right. Don't be the low baller with the pick-up truck running around mowing grass and plowing driveways for side cash. Get registered, get insured, etc..


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## grandview

Well you have a 50/50 chance of making it ,that's if you go with the Fords with a V plow you will have a better chance of making it!

From what I hear Michigan is taking it hard so I'd be careful about buying all this new stuff because you'll never make the payments plowing driveways for 10 bucks. 

The partnership may fall apart if one of you likes to work harder then the other one. 

Of course this is internet advice but, I would setup your partnership with one of you owning more then 50 % of the business.


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## Luther

thefunkyone;839231 said:


> Some friends of mine and I are planning on starting a lawn care and snow plowing business.
> 
> We plan on running two trucks.


What's the plan for the other partner(s) since you will only run two trucks? I'll agree with the others......partnerships have a high failure rate, especially if any family is involved.

Could be your plan is to sub. You won't get far being the primary if you don't offer salt/chems and sidewalk service.

Ford vs Chevy ~ not going there.

Good luck to you sir.
(go with the Chevy)


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## Mick

I'd agree with getting a 3/4 (make sure it's 4 wd), gas and 8' straight blade. With this setup, you can add a sander when you get the justification (Tailgate or Vbox). My preference is sticking with a regular cab (then there's more weight allowance for the plow or Vbox). 

Go into a partner ship only with someone who is not a friend. Otherwise, you'll only lose a friendship. If I had to go into a partnership, I'd choose my worst enemy. Then I'd sic a lawyer on him to draw up the agreement.


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## IHI

Partnerships are no where near 50/50, it's always more like 70/30 or 80/20 hence why almost all of them fail. Best bud and i thought we could overcome that stigma too, were were close like brothers...nope, business came between us, i bought him out and luckily after a few months of ackwardness we were able to sit down, express our thoughts, get i on the table and move on with life being best buds again...but like mentioned above, pick your enemy to work with...keeps ya both on the ragged edge where you have to be to run a business anyhow.

Trucks- 
Whatever you feel comfortable with, working on. I grew up chevy, race chevy engine/drivelines but have switched the trucks over to Ford, and since i've been job tracking we're earning far more with the fords since they dont go down nearly as often as the chevy's alwasy did. And i'm not talking about just plow season, i'm talking about annual operating and maintenacne costs. I will say, chevy's ride nice and get good mpg...but i dont look for a truck with those qualities, kinda like comparing a black and decker drill at wal mart to a milwaukee of hilti...one gets ya by, one gets the job done with little ever asked of it for a long time. (flame suit on)

V plow over straght blade if you can only buy one plow-alot more versatility obviously

gas vs diesel...look at what you'll be using the truck for in the big picture, I run all gassers and they're fine for what i do....though when i've used diesels to tow it's obviously the cats azz with the tons of tq they bring and better fuel mileage...but with the new deisel fuel and emissions...the fuel mileage arguement is'nt even a arguement that makes that big of a difference anymore. Down side of them is the big inital buy in price and outragious parts and repair costs if/when somethig goes down, the nice thing is they do last longer and hold resale and have tons of tq.


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## suzuki0702

wish somebody told me about partnerships like that, had one with the brother. didnt work out so well.....just starting off, get a couple beaters. this is a hard market to slide into right now. everybody and the brother and sister is into it ...with all the jobs lost out there competition is at its greatest.


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## azandy

I would sugest starting out by yourself cutting 25 lawns with one mower and plowing about 4-5 hours with that same truck. What ever truck you like. They are all good and just a preference. If one was bad, no-one would buy it right? Do not grow that fast. Start slow and eliminate debt asap. After your business is started you probably won't want to jump into a partnership at that point. You should offer shoveling and salting. You can hand salt the walks and sub out the parking lots if needed. Or buy a inexpensive tailgate salter and use bags. Try to get these customers to be full service year round. This is our 22nd year and I learned a lot of hard lessons. Remember, there was no plowsite back then. But I thought I knew everything as well. As much as you don't want to here some of these comments, you should think about them. Non of us want to see you fail.
Good luck!!


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## Turf Commando

Worst part is your trying to start it in Michigan....
I expect there to be HUGE amounts of new lawn/snow services this season good luck..:waving:


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## thefunkyone

Thanks for the info guys. I should have been more clear on the partnership thing. It's not so much a partnership as it is one of my friends buying a bunch of equipment and me and my best friend running it for him. The friend in question is a military contractor and wont be around here much. There will not be payments as we will be paying for everything with cash so if it's a slow start thats fine it buys us some time to get the momentum going. 


So it would work like this:


Friend 1 (owns the business, all assets...etc..etc..etc..)
Friend 2 and 3 work for Friend 1 providing management, promotion and labor and share in the profits of the business.


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## Clapper&Company

Sounds like a recipes for disaster


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## THEGOLDPRO

this all sounds like a horrible idea.


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## Mick

Clapper&Company;839496 said:


> Sounds like a recipes for disaster


Agreed. EVERYONE will feel like they're getting screwed and putting more into the business than the other two. To start with, who has the say of how the company is run? Who lines up business? Who does the paperwork/billing/accounting? How is profit calculated (remember, one has ALL the financial risk)?

You will definitely need a legal arrangement for this. I wouldn't touch it otherwise.


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## thefunkyone

Mick;839514 said:


> Agreed. EVERYONE will feel like they're getting screwed and putting more into the business than the other two. To start with, who has the say of how the company is run? Who lines up business? Who does the paperwork/billing/accounting? How is profit calculated (remember, one has ALL the financial risk)?
> 
> You will definitely need a legal arrangement for this. I wouldn't touch it otherwise.


Friend 2 and 3 will be handing everything basically. Friend 1 is providing the cash.


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## Clapper&Company

Mick;839514 said:


> Agreed. EVERYONE will feel like they're getting screwed and putting more into the business than the other two. To start with, who has the say of how the company is run? Who lines up business? Who does the paperwork/billing/accounting? How is profit calculated (remember, one has ALL the financial risk)?
> 
> You will definitely need a legal arrangement for this. I wouldn't touch it otherwise.


Yep, the one who paid for everything should make more money then the other two.... But they will feel like there doing all the work and hes making money doing nothing...

Then out of the two frends one will be "mangememnt" so they should get more then the "Labor" friend....

Can you guys post this on you tube for us to all watch??

.... Toby we need popcorn!


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## THEGOLDPRO

if im reading this right, your buddy (the financial backer/guy buying all the equipment) is the owner. He is going to invest all the money, find all the work,bill the cliets,pay the insurance, field all the calls,ETC ETC ETC, and you guys are going to run the equipment for him??? does this sound about right???? if so you guys are just workers who will likely get paid 10 bucks an hour, and see no real benifet at all from this.

If your buddy pays you guys any more then that he is clearly stupid, what makes you guys think he is going to split the pofits with you when you have nothing invested at all into his business??


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## Turf Commando

I'm glad to be Sole Proprietor ''I'' make all the calls and shots and answer to knowone .
To the OP I'd just would refrain from this whole idea...


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## IHI

Oh no....ohhhh nooooooo.

Well, i guess you boyz that have been doing this for awhile can expect yet another wave of catastrophe to screw up the market in the area again...i know we're seeing it more often than ever with thought processes like what's being discussed here, but it still sucks


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## thefunkyone

THEGOLDPRO;839525 said:


> if im reading this right, your buddy (the financial backer/guy buying all the equipment) is the owner. He is going to invest all the money, find all the work,bill the cliets,pay the insurance, field all the calls,ETC ETC ETC, and you guys are going to run the equipment for him??? does this sound about right???? if so you guys are just workers who will likely get paid 10 bucks an hour, and see no real benifet at all from this.
> 
> If your buddy pays you guys any more then that he is clearly stupid, what makes you guys think he is going to split the pofits with you when you have nothing invested at all into his business??


No not really. Friend 1 is only providing cash. Thats it. He will not even be in the country or have anything to do with managing the business. Myself and a friend will be handling the management and labor. We will not be making a "per hour wage" we will be splitting profits in the company.

There is 1 huge benefit to doing it like this. No payments. All equipment will be paid off so even if we get off to a slow start it doesn't really matter.


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## grandview

Still sounds like your the employee.


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## thefunkyone

grandview;839592 said:


> Still sounds like your the employee.


In a sense yeah we would be. 1 guy provides cash 2 guys do everything else.


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## Luther

thefunkyone;839519 said:


> Friend 2 and 3 will be handing everything basically. Friend 1 is providing the cash.


Soooo.....................what happens to Friend 1 and his cash if Friend2 and 3 go bust?

A sweat equity gig would be sweet.......but who is on the hook if it doesn't pan out?


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## Turf Commando

So your the grunt then...?


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## Mick

thefunkyone;839587 said:


> No not really. Friend 1 is only providing cash. Thats it. He will not even be in the country or have anything to do with managing the business. Myself and a friend will be handling the management and labor. We will not be making a "per hour wage" we will be splitting profits in the company.
> 
> There is 1 huge benefit to doing it like this. No payments. All equipment will be paid off so even if we get off to a slow start it doesn't really matter.


You have GOT TO BE KIDDING. He is "ONLY" providing the cash? "NO PAYMENTS"? No kidding - he's already made them. You two have nothing invested in this, are risking nothing and are not on the hook for anything. Your overseas friend is either a fool or you're all misunderstanding this. The insurance is going to be in his name, but you two will be driving? How about the General Liability and Workman's Comp? How are you two listed on them? Is this set up as a Sole Prop, Partnership of some type or what? How about income reporting to the IRS and withholding? (HINT: Don't say you're not doing any of this over the Internet - IRS agents monitor sites like this).

Does this still sound like a good idea(?) - I've only just begun with potential problems.


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## procut

I hate to sound like a #$^%, but ...

I'd have to say your overseas friend is a fool. He's gonna dump all this money into a venture that he's not even going to be around to see, in a state that has literally 1 out of every 25 people trying to enter the "lawn & snow" business. I don't think you realize how difficult it is going to be starting up from nothing and trying to find work right now when your competing against countless others, including guys/companies that have years of expirience and the equiptment and know how. 

I'm not trying to sound mean here, just giving my honest opinion on your situatiuon. One more thing to think about is I heard a staistic from the SBA while back that said only 3 out of 100 small businesses started this year will still be around in 10 years.


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## THEGOLDPRO

yeah sounds like the kid fronting the cash is crazy to even entertain this weird arrangement. face it your just gonna be a 10 dollar an hour laboror, you will have no real say in what happins. and if you think you do you are sadly mistaken.


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## grandview

Maybe this guy is laundering money from overseas?


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## Turf Commando

procut;839657 said:


> One more thing to think about is I heard a staistic from the SBA while back that said only 3 out of 100 small businesses started this year will still be around in 10 years.


I believe that statistic, sounds about right....


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## ERCKWD

As stated before, partnerships are tough, make sure that you three have all agreed on exit strategy. If someone for whatever reason wants out, you guys need to have a plan already in place so that said person can leave the business. Have something in writing that you three agree to.


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## 04bluediesel

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. All 3 feel like they are getting the short end of the stick and all 3 will no longer be friends before it is over with. Better off for you and your friend to go solo and work together.


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## thefunkyone

Mick;839628 said:


> You have GOT TO BE KIDDING. He is "ONLY" providing the cash? "NO PAYMENTS"? No kidding - he's already made them. You two have nothing invested in this, are risking nothing and are not on the hook for anything. Your overseas friend is either a fool or you're all misunderstanding this. The insurance is going to be in his name, but you two will be driving? How about the General Liability and Workman's Comp? How are you two listed on them? Is this set up as a Sole Prop, Partnership of some type or what? How about income reporting to the IRS and withholding? (HINT: Don't say you're not doing any of this over the Internet - IRS agents monitor sites like this).
> 
> Does this still sound like a good idea(?) - I've only just begun with potential problems.


He is providing cash and everything will be in his name. We will be listed as employees. All the details will be hammered out this week. We already have the company registered as an LLC.... etc..etc..

Liability wise we will be on the hook since we will be the ones driving we are of course all going to be insured.

I'm not really looking for info on whether we should do this which is what you all seem to be so hung up on. I'm asking for info on specific equipment.


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## thefunkyone

grandview;839685 said:


> Maybe this guy is laundering money from overseas?


NO, and I think he would resent the fact that he is out serving this country and someone would suggest such a thing.


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## thefunkyone

procut;839657 said:


> I hate to sound like a #$^%, but ...
> 
> I'd have to say your overseas friend is a fool. He's gonna dump all this money into a venture that he's not even going to be around to see, in a state that has literally 1 out of every 25 people trying to enter the "lawn & snow" business. I don't think you realize how difficult it is going to be starting up from nothing and trying to find work right now when your competing against countless others, including guys/companies that have years of expirience and the equiptment and know how.
> 
> I'm not trying to sound mean here, just giving my honest opinion on your situatiuon. One more thing to think about is I heard a staistic from the SBA while back that said only 3 out of 100 small businesses started this year will still be around in 10 years.


We know it's going to be difficult. I don't shy away from a challenge. A friend of mine who has several years in lawn care and snow plowing will be taking us on as apprentices to get us on our feet with what we need to do. I just came to this site looking for some equipment advice but it seems everyone is getting hooked on the business arrangement.


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## thefunkyone

THEGOLDPRO;839674 said:


> yeah sounds like the kid fronting the cash is crazy to even entertain this weird arrangement. face it your just gonna be a 10 dollar an hour laboror, you will have no real say in what happins. and if you think you do you are sadly mistaken.


He is not a "Kid" and it was not our idea to start this deal. My friend wants to start the business and he has faith in us to run the day to day operations and work as laborers. We are not working as a per hour laborers. We will be paid a percentage of profits from the company. Period. Thats a pretty good incentive to want to make it work.

It's not really a very strange business model but maybe in this particular industry it's not the norm and thats why you guys are freaking out. People invest cash into start up companies all the time and act as silent partners. It's a big part of our whole economic system.


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## 04bluediesel

If you want to make a go of it you need to be a full service company. At least 3/4 ton 4x4 if finances allow I would go for a V blade. As far as salting it depands on the # of accounts. If you don't have much to salt go with a hitch mounted box.


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## thefunkyone

04bluediesel;840343 said:


> If you want to make a go of it you need to be a full service company. At least 3/4 ton 4x4 if finances allow I would go for a V blade. As far as salting it depands on the # of accounts. If you don't have much to salt go with a hitch mounted box.


Thanks. It seems to be V-Plows are the way to go.

For trucks we found 2 3/4 ton Chevy's for sale locally. They are both 2003's. V-8's. One has about 90k on it and the other around 50k.

Also found a couple nice F-250's.

We haven't really been looking at 1 tons yet.


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## 04bluediesel

Can't tell you much about Chevy's. Only run Dodge's and the Ford 450 dump that I currently use. Used gas trucks but prefer and run diesels.


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## 04bluediesel

Haven't used anything but Western V blades and Western 1000 salt boxes but had good luck with them.


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## thefunkyone

04bluediesel;840350 said:


> Can't tell you much about Chevy's. Only run Dodge's and the Ford 450 dump that I currently use. Used gas trucks but prefer and run diesels.


Cool.

Does diesel actually have it over gas when it comes to pushing snow or is it more for pulling the trailer in the summer?


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## thefunkyone

04bluediesel;840354 said:


> Haven't used anything but Western V blades and Western 1000 salt boxes but had good luck with them.


Western seems to be pretty popular. I see their blades a lot on trucks here in the winter.


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## 04bluediesel

Had a 02 Ram 2500 w/5.9 gas and 04 Ram 3500 w/5.9 HO diesel and the 3500 in 2wdwould out push the 2500 in 4wd everytime. If get a diesel with the right gears you will get alot better fuel economy than your gaser so it will pay for itself.


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## thefunkyone

04bluediesel;840364 said:


> Had a 02 Ram 2500 w/5.9 gas and 04 Ram 3500 w/5.9 HO diesel and the 3500 in 2wdwould out push the 2500 in 4wd everytime. If get a diesel with the right gears you will get alot better fuel economy than your gaser so it will pay for itself.


I'll keep that in mind.


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## thefunkyone

Found a couple of nice F250's today. Might be picking them up next week if they are still around.


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## grunt19026

thefunkyone;839605 said:


> In a sense yeah we would be. 1 guy provides cash 2 guys do everything else.


Take it from me a loan from the bank is cheaper than losing a friend. Learn quickbooks, learn how to save on taxes and create yourselves assets. aka (business). Plus the moment somone bets there own money and sweet, it makes getting out there and mowing 18 yards a day enjoyable. good luck.


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## thefunkyone

Thanks for the response.


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## LoneCowboy

You are not going to want to hear this, but too bad.

I agree with everyone else, this is one horrible idea.

It's called capitalism. 
That means, at a real basic level, the person with the capital makes the returns in exchange for risking their capital.

labor is labor, it is not capital., esp in michigan there is tons of it.
The guy with the capital should at the very least get 80% of the business. Then maybe 10% for each of you to earn off.
That means 80% of the profits go to him and rightfully so. 

It also means he could lose it all.
And he's going to with no one to watch the money that he's risking. The only people who can steal from you are people you trust. And there's only one person who's worried about your money. You. 

Trucks are trucks, they are just tools. Find the one with the best dealer, move on with life. Same thing with plows, they are just tools, find the one with a good dealer nearby and move on. 

advertising?
marketing?
clients?
business plan?
capital?
wages?
insurance?
taxes?

This business won't make spring 2010. It has no chance, none. 

When everyone is saying the same thing and it's all not what you want to hear, don't get mad, LISTEN. People are taking of their hard won experience and trying to help and just because we're old doesn't mean we haven't been there, done that and learned something and trying to keep you from doing the same thing.


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## KingDuramax

Sounds like all good advice. A trucks a truck to me although I prefer GMs. Had a few fords in the mix but always went back to GM.

Plows I like westerns. Mines 4 years old and only had to change the fluid. 

A little late in the year to be finding work for two trucks. Most people are already set with thier services. Should of Started this back in June! Good Luck


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## asps4u

LoneCowboy;841716 said:


> You are not going to want to hear this, but too bad.
> 
> I agree with everyone else, this is one horrible idea.
> 
> It's called capitalism.
> That means, at a real basic level, the person with the capital makes the returns in exchange for risking their capital.
> 
> labor is labor, it is not capital., esp in michigan there is tons of it.
> The guy with the capital should at the very least get 80% of the business. Then maybe 10% for each of you to earn off.
> That means 80% of the profits go to him and rightfully so.
> 
> It also means he could lose it all.
> And he's going to with no one to watch the money that he's risking. The only people who can steal from you are people you trust. And there's only one person who's worried about your money. You.
> 
> Trucks are trucks, they are just tools. Find the one with the best dealer, move on with life. Same thing with plows, they are just tools, find the one with a good dealer nearby and move on.
> 
> advertising?
> marketing?
> clients?
> business plan?
> capital?
> wages?
> insurance?
> taxes?
> 
> This business won't make spring 2010. It has no chance, none.
> 
> When everyone is saying the same thing and it's all not what you want to hear, don't get mad, LISTEN. People are taking of their hard won experience and trying to help and just because we're old doesn't mean we haven't been there, done that and learned something and trying to keep you from doing the same thing.


Very well said!

While I know that it seems like a no-brainer to you guys now since you are all friends, in the end that's all you have. And you won't have that after going into business together, no matter how strong you think your friendship is. I've been there, I know how you feel and what you are thinking, and it won't work. I had all the legal paperwork, and still got screwed to the tune of $150,000 in the end. My best friend of 20 years turned on me. I was 51% owner, put in 51% of the initial investment, did all the work setting up the business, owned the buildings & equipment, ran day to day operations, "all he did" (as you put it) was put up 49% of the money. Well that investment of his, made him a lot of money and than he felt "entitled" to more, and that's when all was lost. The 20+ year friendship no longer meant anything and was flushed down the toilet over a "gray area" in the contracts that was left to the discretion of the court. And even though I was right, and the court agreed with me, they still gave that idiot something he didn't have coming, and now that very profitable business is gone, and with it went a long time friend.

I know you are going to proceed anyway, but take everyone's advice to heart, and at least think about it long and hard, even though you don't want to hear it. And be prepared for the worst, because one day, it will happen. Especially since there are more than just two of you.


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## thefunkyone

I understand that this does not seem like a good idea. If I was on the other side of the computer screen I might even go as far as to advise against the whole thing too. But I would be doing so without knowing all the details of the business arrangement. Therefore there is a good chance my advice would be misguided and potentially wrong. 


I'm not going to get into too many of the details here because it's really nobody's business but my own. (and the 2 other guys) However you guys have to understand something here. The friend that is investing money is not a typical, "greedy money grubbing business man." Despite this he is doing very well now making over 200k/yr working for the government. He also has very very very few expenses relative to his income. It is not a big deal for him to fork out $50k or so to get the business started. I'm telling you this because it's irrelevant if the business is making profits right away. No mortage, car payments.... nothing to worry about. Nobody is going hungry if the business flops. 


So what IF the business flops. Lets see, sell the assets and my friend would be out the difference of what he paid for the assets (cash, no loans) and the depreciated value of those assets. 

So in order to start making money we have to be able to make enough capital plowing snow to fight the depreciated value of the assets + cover costs of repairs + cover costs of maintenance. You could also figure into that advertising costs and expenses such as gas, phones etc..etc... 

After all thats done whatever is left over is profit. Then from those profits we will each take a percentage. That will be our pay rate. Nobody will be earning a per/hour rate. The harder we work the more money we make. Simple. Some days we might not make money, some days we might make a little or a lot. 

On top of this my friend that will be helping plow as well as myself have already have steady income. This business is just for extra income. 

I think we will do just fine. Much thought has been given to this. We didn't just get up one day and say "hey!! lets all get rich plowing snow!!!!". 


Now are you all satisfied?!?!?


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## grandview

Fine,go for it and in a year come back and let us know how it went.

Just post some pixs of all this new equipment and you can still hang out here and BS with us.


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## thefunkyone

grandview;842198 said:


> Fine,go for it and in a year come back and let us know how it went.
> 
> Just post some pixs of all this new equipment and you can still hang out here and BS with us.


I plan on it. We are not buying new equipment though. Well, maybe the plows. But the trucks will be used. We want to buy vehicles that have already taken a big depreciation hit.


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## thefunkyone

LoneCowboy;841716 said:


> advertising?
> marketing?
> clients?
> business plan?
> capital?
> wages?
> insurance?
> taxes?


I'll respond in order:

It's Covered
Done
Working on it
We have one
WAY more than we need
Already explained
Yes
Yes


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## John Mac

I have a few question for you:

Has your friend with the money given you guys a start up budget?
Has he given you guys a time frame to turn a profit?
Has he given you guys yearly budget to reinvest?
What will be your reinvest time frame before you take a profit?
What happens if one you guys can't work anymore?
What if one of you guys work more or less than the other?
How long are you willing to work with out pay to grow?
If you do work with out pay when do you take profit out and who decides?
Who decides who does what work between the two guys working?
Who decides how the truck will be used when not working it, personal miles?

This can work, greed and jealousy can kill it. I am betting it won't just for record.


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## M.McDaniel

Basic equipment consist of a 3/4 ton truck of your choice, a 8' blade of your choice, a quality 21" snow blower, gas can for fuel mix, two quality poly "pusher" type shovels and 3 or 4 five-gallon buckets. No real need for anything else.


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## thefunkyone

John Mac;842429 said:


> I have a few question for you:
> 
> Has your friend with the money given you guys a start up budget?
> Has he given you guys a time frame to turn a profit?
> Has he given you guys yearly budget to reinvest?
> What will be your reinvest time frame before you take a profit?
> What happens if one you guys can't work anymore?
> What if one of you guys work more or less than the other?
> How long are you willing to work with out pay to grow?
> If you do work with out pay when do you take profit out and who decides?
> Who decides who does what work between the two guys working?
> Who decides how the truck will be used when not working it, personal miles?
> 
> This can work, greed and jealousy can kill it.


I'll answer each individually below.

*Has your friend with the money given you guys a start up budget?*

No. We need 2 trucks and plow equipment for both. Also separate cell phones, advertising money, graphics for the trucks and a few other items. Whatever that cost is IS the budget. Best estimate is around 40k but it might be closer to 50k when it's all said and done. This of course doesn't count the lawn mowing gear we will need in the summer but that can come later.

*Has he given you guys a time frame to turn a profit?*

No. It doesn't matter how long it takes. As long as the business isn't hemorrhaging cash we will be fine.

*Has he given you guys yearly budget to reinvest?*

No. Once again though. Whatever we need for advertising or purchasing new equipment will be covered.

*What will be your reinvest time frame before you take a profit?*

I don't understand exactly what you are asking for here. Are you asking how long it will take to re-pay capital and turn a profit after investing in new equipment or advertising? If so, that will be subjective. You would have to be more specific.

*What happens if one you guys can't work anymore?*

I have a very strong business background. In business one philosophy is "get big, get small". You have to change quickly depending on current conditions. If 1 person could no longer work then we would have to react to that change. There are several ways to do this and it all depends on the state of the business at the time so thats not a question I can answer now.

*What if one of you guys work more or less than the other?*

We will keep a log of hours worked. Percentages of hours worked between both parties will determine how the pay is split. Thats the easiest way to do it.

*How long are you willing to work with out pay to grow?*

I can go a long time. This is not the main source of income for anyone involved.

*If you do work with out pay when do you take profit out and who decides?*

Can you clarify that question? I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.

*Who decides who does what work between the two guys working?*

We have a schedule worked out. Who does what after that will be dependent on the weather in relation to our schedules.

*Who decides how the truck will be used when not working it, personal miles?*

We will each have our own truck. Some miles may be personal but we both drive vehicles that are going to be much more fuel efficient than a 3/4 ton truck with a plow.


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## thefunkyone

M.McDaniel;842459 said:


> Basic equipment consist of a 3/4 ton truck of your choice, a 8' blade of your choice, a quality 21" snow blower, gas can for fuel mix, two quality poly "pusher" type shovels and 3 or 4 five-gallon buckets. No real need for anything else.


Thanks for the response!


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## M.McDaniel

Picking truck/plow brands are tough because of the many variables. I think most would agree that Toro manufactures the best quality snow blowers.


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## thefunkyone

M.McDaniel;842481 said:


> Picking truck/plow brands are tough because of the many variables. I think most would agree that Toro manufactures the best quality snow blowers.


Toro makes great stuff. We plan on picking up a Toro and Exmark for lawn care in the summer.


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## M.McDaniel

I don't think you will run across too many people liking Toro's small lawncare equipment for commercial use. Toro's large equipment, for field cutting, course maintenance, etc; is looked highly upon although. You can't go wrong with Exmark.


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## M.McDaniel

If you know what type of property you are going to most likely be maintaining this winter you can narrow equipment specs down further.


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## John Mac

> No. It doesn't matter how long it takes. As long as the business isn't hemorrhaging cash we will be fine


Who determines this and is there any set $, your idea of hemorrhaging could be different than his.

Who decides what is long enough to work with out pay before you can take some money out? I assume it would be the guy with the money. It could take a lot longer than you think, I am talking years not months.

Even though you have a schedule some work is easier than some others, like who gets to do the shovel work etc. With two guys you will never have a equally easy or hard work load.

One thing 50k cash is a lot of money even if the guy is making 200k a year, I think you are correct about thinking more like 75k by the time you get to summer and you may need the help of a bank, is your guy willing to do this? If he has unlimited funds, no one has, you can make anything work.


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## thefunkyone

M.McDaniel;842505 said:


> If you know what type of property you are going to most likely be maintaining this winter you can narrow equipment specs down further.


For this winter it will mostly be residential. Then we will work on getting commercial contracts in the summer.


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## Grampa Plow

"There is 1 huge benefit to doing it like this. No payments. All equipment will be paid off so even if we get off to a slow start it doesn't really matter." 

Sorry, when you put it like that it makes it sound like if we do good, great, if not "oh well." If I was friend #1 and my "partner" made a statement like that, I would be concerned. He will have a pretty good investment (the up front money) so take very good care of him and his equipment or he (and the equipment and the money) will be gone. Any investor (even a mom or dad) wants to see a return on their investment.

Good luck, be honest and upfront with people, under promise and over perform and you'll do great!!


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## thefunkyone

John Mac;842513 said:


> Who determines this and is there any set $, your idea of hemorrhaging could be different than his.
> 
> Who decides what is long enough to work with out pay before you can take some money out? I assume it would be the guy with the money. It could take a lot longer than you think, I am talking years not months.
> 
> Even though you have a schedule some work is easier than some others, like who gets to do the shovel work etc. With two guys you will never have a equally easy or hard work load.
> 
> One thing 50k cash is a lot of money even if the guy is making 200k a year, I think you are correct about thinking more like 75k by the time you get to summer and you may need the help of a bank, is your guy willing to do this? If he has unlimited funds, no one has, you can make anything work.


My idea of hemorrhaging would be a situation where we are going out to our customers, being payed comparably by those customers to others in the industry and STILL not making money. If every time we go out we are losing, then it's time to re-evaluate things like cost and to control any variables we can.

Shovel work will depend on whoever goes to that particular job. Who goes will depend on the weather as compared to our respective schedules. One could assume that shovel work v.s. truck work will even out doing it this way.

My friend certainly doesn't have unlimited funds but at this point we will not need the help of a bank. If the time comes and the business looks sound then i'm sure we would go to a bank if we needed help.

Thank you for your questions! They have helped me think of others that I can bring up later this week when we all meet.


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## M.McDaniel

7' and/or 7 1/2' blades are great for residential work. I think overall they are more efficient for drives and other tight spaces.


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## thefunkyone

M.McDaniel;842555 said:


> 7' and/or 7 1/2' blades are great for residential work. I think overall they are more efficient for drives and other tight spaces.


Makes sense. Maybe we should consider that blade size then instead of a 8'.


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## John Mac

You are welcome, you should be scared of any situations that can cause you to fail from your actions or the others. What you are trying to do is hard enough with out issues from inside. You will have plenty of outside forces that you can not control that will make it hard.

The good thing is it is someone else's money, you have nothing to loose. I personally would never trust anyone to determine *my* success or failure. Your freind is a very trusting sole.

By a 8' V blade, fine for drives and good for small parking lots if you get any.


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## John Mac

OH, I still think it won't work but I could be wrong. I have had partners before it never worked, both were friends that are no longer. 

The problem with mine, I was the guy with the money. I was young and foolish.

He who has the money always is the one to get hurt not the labor always the money.


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## thefunkyone

John Mac;842604 said:


> OH, I still think it won't work but I could be wrong. I have had partners before it never worked, both were friends that are no longer.
> 
> The problem with mine were I was the guy with the money. I was young and foolish.
> 
> He who has the money always is the one to get hurt not the labor always the money.


Thanks!

I'm not sure if it will work either. But i'm going to give it a shot.


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