# Shopping center by the hour



## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

Today i found out that my shopping center wants to go by the hour the instead of going by the season like in years past :crying: , i'm only a small lawn maintenence co, with no heavy equipment i always rent it, and no way am i going to spend my own money on rental, and take a chance on it snowing this season. If anyone can HELP please make suggestions.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Since you plowed it last year can you go back on any records for how many times you plowed? Then take that figure and take the hourly rate for this year and compare see which is better.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

damn. if they told me that i wouldnt rent ANY equipment. of course they might get concerned when they saw me out there with a broom and dustpan.


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

*thanx*



bribrius;397498 said:


> damn. if they told me that i wouldnt rent ANY equipment. of course they might get concerned when they saw me out there with a broom and dustpan.


I hav to rent something the 1 center has guide rail in the back, and the other center is about the size of a Wal-mart so u need at least a loader :waving:


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

grandview;397465 said:


> Since you plowed it last year can you go back on any records for how many times you plowed? Then take that figure and take the hourly rate for this year and compare see which is better.


i went through my records , i just don't want to take a chance on putting up that much money for rentals, i will make just as much money plowing my smaller lots and roads without paying rentals, & looking for more xysport


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

I would explain to them that your are a small, professional snow removal service that does not have the working capital to rent the required equipment out of pocket.

Also tell them, "Last year it snowed XX times and it cost you $XX.oo. If it would have snowed XXXX times it still would have only cost you $XX.oo. When we sign a deal, you KNOW how much it is going to cost you and you can budget it. If you sign an hourly contract with me or with someone else, you have NO idea how much it is going to cost you. Could be less, could be ALOT more."

If you can live without them, I might let them go. It sounds like they are trying to save money and get it for as cheap as they can.

I put out a landscape bid last week and got an email from them saying that they are considering me, but I'm the only one that requires money up front. I wrote them back explaining that I am a small, family run business with the owner, me, on site working and making sure the customer was happy. And as such, we don't always have the capital on hand to purchase the needed materials. I went on explaining more about the quality work we do because we are small. We'll see.


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

i was thinking at least a $100.00 per inch or more to plow a large shopping center


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

You may have to give them a spread 1-3,3-5. I only do seasonal so I head out between 2-3 inches and plow until it done snowing.


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

*plow by inch*

is that too cheap should i go higher


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

You need to be a little more specific then a LARGE shopping mall. How big is large? Sq' or Acres.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Maybe you need to be clearer on this. 100.00 means nothing to me. Do you mean that for a 100.00 you'll plow a whole mall?


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

how this ex. $100.00x3inches =300 about 1.5hrs of plowing 100.00x5inches =$500.00 and so on


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

I think your way to high, you should really be at about 20 dollars an hour. start from there and figure out your pricing on how long it will take.....

This is totally false info cause i plow for beer money


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## ford6.9 (Aug 17, 2006)

This is totally false info cause i plow for beer money[/QUOTE]

wow that was the best laugh of my day thanks BNC


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## GL&M (Sep 26, 2005)

I wouldn't go broke for one company that's playing the cheap card. If you can supplement the income from other jobs I wouldn't take the chance with them.


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

> (FISHERBOY) Just wondering what some of u guys r charging by the inch


So asking us to give you a per inch price didnt work, so now you want us to give you an hourly price.. If you ask nicely how to price commercial lots we might help you out, but its not looking good so far..


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

See and I am in the other boat. I have a property management company who is going to take a number of accounts away from an hourly guy. Their budget was around 45k and he billed 95k in a average snow year on one property. He had 5. Now he has ZERO. We gave him a seasonal number that is hard and fast, he jumped so fast that I had to move so he would not sign my hand.... 

It is a cycle thing. The managers think they are being cheated, Then they change and get cheated, and quickly change back....If you pass and your numbers are good they may be back next year with their hat in their hands.


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

So.... you only drink $20 Dollars worth of beer and hour, when you are plowing? Or do you figure in Gas and munchies as well. I say go 99.99 an inch it look really cheap on a 100 Acre Center, or are we talking per cubic inch removed, then I would want to be 99.98 

Sorry, I am in the middle of bid season and have about 99.98 hours in so I found it funny.


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## bltp203 (Nov 5, 2006)

How about instead of renting equipment, you sub contract it out to someone who has a loader. This way you are only paying them if it snows, but have the equipment needed to keep the account.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Explain to them that to keep a loader with no guarantee is foolish. How about maybe going with a standby rate, which will cover the rental and then a reasonable hourly rate.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

QuadPlower;397631 said:


> I put out a landscape bid last week and got an email from them saying that they are considering me, but I'm the only one that requires money up front. I wrote them back explaining that I am a small, family run business with the owner, me, on site working and making sure the customer was happy. And as such, we don't always have the capital on hand to purchase the needed materials. I went on explaining more about the quality work we do because we are small. We'll see.


You require money up front?  
For plowing or landscaping?
I'm confused.

either way, IMHO it screams small guy who isn't paying his bills and needs money right now (no insult intended or given, I'm sure you are an upstanding business and citizen but look at it from the customers POV) but it comes across that way. Small, under-capitalized and unable to solve "MY" problem. You might want to rethink that approach.

I rarely if ever ask for a deposit (it has to be a HUGE job with LOTS of materials), and I hate being asked for one. There's a reason almost every company gives credit and credit cards are incredibly easy to get.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

Oh, and what's wrong with working by the hour.
You NEVER get hosed, you'll always get paid for your time. 
most people don't like it (they want a set price), but some do and it's fair for both sides.

I don't think you can fairly represent this place if you don't actually have the equipment to do it.
why not sub it out? You charge $100/hour, pay them $80/hour (or something, whatever your rates are). Someone with equipment would surely want to do it (I would) and your risk goes way down.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

LoneCowboy;398534 said:


> Oh, and what's wrong with working by the hour.
> You NEVER get hosed, you'll always get paid for your time.
> most people don't like it (they want a set price), but some do and it's fair for both sides.
> 
> ...


what's wrong by plowing by the hr.
A few things.
What happens when you get more efficient at plowing or you purchase equipment that is more efficient?

I'll tell ya, you will be giving your self a cut in pay.

Why would you bet bigger more efficient equipment to do the lot quicker if you get paid by the hr?

Next problem with by the hr, 
The property manager will always be watching how fast you are going. Sooner or later it will end up with someone not being happy.
You pay employees by the hr., do not bid a job by the hr,

"You NEVER get hosed, you'll always get paid for your time"
Why? because it was by the hr and not the job? why would you not get paid?


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

SnoFarmer;398567 said:


> what's wrong by plowing by the hr.
> A few things.
> What happens when you get more efficient at plowing or you purchase equipment that is more efficient?
> 
> ...


More efficent stuff gets charged more, not unreasonable.

So, you've never mis-bid a project?
Never gotten just crushed because it took 3 times as long as you thought?
Ever snow twice as much as a "normal" year with set contracts?
It happens to everyone, can't happen in by the hour.

I'm not saying that by the hour is the best, I'm just saying its reasonable. (and lots of places out here use it) and it's reasonable for both sides. If it doesn't snow, the customer doesn't pay, if it does snow, you get paid.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Charging by the hour is fine if you have another full time job and no full time employees of your own. Also if the equipment you use for snow is paid for during the other months of the year. I don't understand why people want to stay around all winter and not make any money. Myself and employees get paid for the winter and all my other expenses need to be paid too. When you plow for a living, you have to be very productive and when your bidding a job by the hour they don't give you enough more $ because your productive. If most large contractors sat down and actually figured out what they make an hour for actual plow time/peice and submmitted that hourly bid, I don't think they would get the contract.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

QuadPlower;397631 said:


> I would explain to them that your are a small, professional snow removal service that does not have the working capital to rent the required equipment out of pocket.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Translated:
> ...


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Knowing what you are doing and being under funded are two different things. Whither or not he wants to gamble (like we all do that make a living at pushing snow) that it is going to snow enough to pay for the rental is up to him. I think we can agree that it would be easier if he owned a loader. Let it sit at the lot rather than at his house.

Plowing by the hour makes no sense to me. There are only so many hours between when the snow reaches the trigger amount and when the lot has to be cleared. When ALL of your lots have to be cleared. That limits your income. You can charge more when you get a bigger & faster piece of equipment. But will that price increase cover the time you save? Look at the plowing time differents on some of these estimate software when you switch from a 8' blade to a 9' blade.

Most contractors(landscaper, builders, remodeler, brick layers) that have to buy materials for larger jobs require payment either before or shortly after the materials are bought. I require half up front for several reasons. One of which is that within the first 2 days of most projects I have went through half of the bid amount. I have excavated out the dirt, brought in new gravel and purchased all of the materials for the job. I have accounts with all the places I get materials from so I don't have to pay for another 30 days. Another reason is that if for some reason something goes bad with the customer, I have the materials paid for. I have working capital and all my bills are paid. But like Fisher Boy is going through, why risk it if you don't have to?


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## cjasonbr (Nov 18, 2005)

QuadPlower;398814 said:


> Most contractors(landscaper, builders, remodeler, brick layers) that have to buy materials for larger jobs require payment either before or shortly after the materials are bought.


What is the materials cost in pushing snow? Do you need the money up-front to purchase a truck & plow?


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## yamaguy (Aug 26, 2007)

He has to rent a loader and stuff.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;398567 said:


> what's wrong by plowing by the hr.
> A few things.
> What happens when you get more efficient at plowing or you purchase equipment that is more efficient?
> 
> ...





JD Dave;398690 said:


> Charging by the hour is fine if you have another full time job and no full time employees of your own. Also if the equipment you use for snow is paid for during the other months of the year. I don't understand why people want to stay around all winter and not make any money. Myself and employees get paid for the winter and all my other expenses need to be paid too. When you plow for a living, you have to be very productive and when your bidding a job by the hour they don't give you enough more $ because your productive. If most large contractors sat down and actually figured out what they make an hour for actual plow time/peice and submmitted that hourly bid, I don't think they would get the contract.


LoneCowboy, these guys are dead on with their thoughts.

You won't find many contractors that charge by the hour for plowing, as it is generally because the contractor doesn't know how to bid.


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## imjustdave (Mar 23, 2005)

I think if you have to go by the HR then I would have a monthly base + Hr. The base would cover rental + a little to cover your self and then when it snows you get by the HR. But I would also have a miminum charge of say 4 hrs per trip, ETC. But I think talking to the customer and seeing why he wants a HR rate, maybe someone else gave him a HR rate and he is trying to compare, maybe it didn't snow enough and he thinks it wont this year. 

Good luck


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