# So what is better for a big lot???



## ConnorExum

I've just been curious about what the professionals think is better for a big lot. Let's say the lot is like that of a Lowell's, Home Depot, Wal-Mart or other large retail complex. What is better a truck like an old Oshkosh with a 14ft or bigger power angle plow, a truck with a huge snow blower, smaller trucks, loaders with big pushers, or some combination of them all? I've just been curious because I've seen that a lot people used do lots with trucks like an Oshkosh now seem to have loaders. And I've never seen to many with Snowblower trucks which to me seem ideal for the operation for clean up. So I was curious why? Myself I think the Oshkosh plus a couple of smaller blower trucks say Unimogs would be killer. But that is just a guess on my part. I'd like some real information on the topic from empirical sources. 

Thanks 

Connor


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## procut

For large lots trucks with blowers would be of little value - way too slow; they are for more or less for roads in deep snow country. I'd have to say for the application you described loaders with push boxes would be the most usefull, then probably larger dump truck type with plows. Of course a couple pick-ups are ideal for around entrances, light poles, tigher areas, ect.


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## ConnorExum

procut;975131 said:


> For large lots trucks with blowers would be of little value - way too slow; they are for more or less for roads in deep snow country. I'd have to say for the application you described loaders with push boxes would be the most usefull, then probably larger dump truck type with plows. Of course a couple pick-ups are ideal for around entrances, light poles, tigher areas, ect.


Yeah but what about the snowblowers' ability to get close to objects for cleaning up ? Or the other cool feature of a snowblower it's ability to tackle large mounds of snow and put the snow into say a dump truck? I would think those would be bonus features for a successful job in a big parking lot.

Thanks for the information I was just curious why I never see them being used in this application.


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## cubanb343

Because snowblowers are slow. In a perfect world, snowblowers would work. But when things need to be done, like in a hurry, push it. Plus, during the day when the lot needs cleaned, and people are coming and going... You gonna run a snowblower and blow snow all over the place?


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## ConnorExum

cubanb343;975235 said:


> Because snowblowers are slow. In a perfect world, snowblowers would work. But when things need to be done, like in a hurry, push it. Plus, during the day when the lot needs cleaned, and people are coming and going... You gonna run a snowblower and blow snow all over the place?


I was just curious... I've only seen one place ever that had a Sicard Snowblower truck. I was just curious why more people don't use them.


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## JDiepstra

The reason you see people going from big trucks with big plows to loaders with pushers is because it's faster, and, they can stack much better, leaving more space in the parking lot. Most businesses don't want to pay for the blower and truck and hauling fee to have the snow removed.


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## ConnorExum

JDiepstra;975269 said:


> The reason you see people going from big trucks with big plows to loaders with pushers is because it's faster, and, they can stack much better, leaving more space in the parking lot. Most businesses don't want to pay for the blower and truck and hauling fee to have the snow removed.


Really, I was just curious, still I think the Oshkoshs' are neat. So how much extra does it cost to have it removed?


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## rob_cook2001

Loader/loaders with push boxes supported by 2speed skids with plows :}


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## ConnorExum

rob_cook2001;975295 said:


> Loader/loaders with push boxes supported by 2speed skids with plows :}


So what's the top speed of a big Cat loader like a 250B?


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## rob_cook2001

Cat 250B? Isnt a 250b some kind of paving machine???
Robert


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## rob_cook2001

Do you mean a 950??


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## ConnorExum

rob_cook2001;975317 said:


> Do you mean a 950??


I don't know I'm not that up on my Cat Loaders. But lets say a big one with a 22ft pusher on it what sort of speeds can you push at?


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## Kenyou

Hi Connor. From personal experience I have learned that a blower does a good job on most drive ways, but when the area gets big, you have to blow the same snow many times over and over. Every time you blow it, it becomes packed down and eventually the blower rides over it. The only time the big blowers shine is when they are cleaning a mountain pass or a road where you have to blow the snow over a very tall area and the snow is too high to plow or no place to plow it to.


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## ConnorExum

Kenyou;975477 said:


> Hi Connor. From personal experience I have learned that a blower does a good job on most drive ways, but when the area gets big, you have to blow the same snow many times over and over. Every time you blow it, it becomes packed down and eventually the blower rides over it. The only time the big blowers shine is when they are cleaning a mountain pass or a road where you have to blow the snow over a very tall area and the snow is too high to plow or no place to plow it to.


Well, I wasn't exactly thinking of the snow being completely removed by snow blower trucks, just once the area is say roughed into large piles then completely removed in this fashion. That way you have less snow in the parking lot and you give commercial nearly 100% of its original surface area back. It was just a thought because I've seen all of the loaders and dump trucks out at the local big shopping malls, and stuff and always seemed to me that if you streamlined the process why let the snow build up when you can easily remove it all at once.

I live in a hilly area and many of the locations are built on the hill tops or near streams and other areas where the buildings are above some of the regular ground level so it would seem if you pushed all the snow to one area and blew it off you would be in fantastic shape.

I would be curious to see it tested.

Perhaps, I'll buy my Oshkosh and snowblower truck and try out going commercial because frankly I find driving around in a big truck pushing snow to be relaxing. 
I was just curious thanks for answering my question.


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## Grn Mtn

ConnorExum;975108 said:


> I've just been curious about what the professionals think is better for a big lot. Let's say the lot is like that of a Lowell's, Home Depot, Wal-Mart or other large retail complex. What is better a truck like an old Oshkosh with a 14ft or bigger power angle plow, a truck with a huge snow blower, smaller trucks, loaders with big pushers, or some combination of them all? I've just been curious because I've seen that a lot people used do lots with trucks like an Oshkosh now seem to have loaders. And I've never seen to many with Snowblower trucks which to me seem ideal for the operation for clean up. So I was curious why? Myself I think the Oshkosh plus a couple of smaller blower trucks say Unimogs would be killer. But that is just a guess on my part. I'd like some real information on the topic from empirical sources.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Connor


cost, speed, location and whats available.

blowers have their purpose, but they are expensive and slow, but shine when it comes time to clearing roads that have 10' snow banks (aka Tug Hill region of CNY)

Loaders not only can move massive quantities of snow and quickly, but they can stack it high too. Providing more parking spaces.

Highway trucks can move the snow too but can't stack, thus the loader is more multi-purpose.

If the contract is cheap, you will tend to see a bunch of pickups running around the lot. How much the contract pays will tend to dictate the type and quantity of equipment found servicing the lot.

don't take this the wrong way but you aren't young by any chance are you?


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## ConnorExum

Grn Mtn;975537 said:


> cost, speed, location and whats available.
> 
> blowers have their purpose, but they are expensive and slow, but shine when it comes time to clearing roads that have 10' snow banks (aka Tug Hill region of CNY)
> 
> Loaders not only can move massive quantities of snow and quickly, but they can stack it high too. Providing more parking spaces.
> 
> Highway trucks can move the snow too but can't stack, thus the loader is more multi-purpose.
> 
> If the contract is cheap, you will tend to see a bunch of pickups running around the lot. How much the contract pays will tend to dictate the type and quantity of equipment found servicing the lot.
> 
> don't take this the wrong way but you aren't young by any chance are you?


Not that young...


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## Grn Mtn

ConnorExum;975533 said:


> .... and stuff and always seemed to me that if you streamlined the process why let the snow build up when you can easily remove it all at once. ....


Money Money Money! If you can make more money by hauling and removing, why would you want to give that potential source of income away?

BTW, I see from your latest post your probably not a kid....


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## ConnorExum

Grn Mtn;975543 said:


> Money Money Money! If you can make more money by hauling and removing, why would you want to give that potential source of income away?
> 
> BTW, I see from your latest post your probably not a kid....


I think obviously would factor in the removal costs into estimate if it required long distance removal. However, if you're doing it on site I wouldn't charge much extra. For example in the town next to mine Catskill (well 27miles away, that is pretty next to the area I live) there is a Home Depot with a huge drop off on one side that is about 100feet into the Catskill Creek. Now when I go to the Home Depot for stuff I always see these massive piles of snow. And I've always wondered why stack into piles in the parking lot if you could just use the loader to dump it into the streams. I know perhaps there are EPA regulations on the dumping of snow I'm not aware of but really how bad can it be for the stream if they let 2cycle outboard motors run in the water?

So I have a question how fast can you clear a lot with a commercial sized loader like a CAT 950? It seems it would slower than a big former road truck. I've seen some of those older road trucks plowing at 20-30mph with a good foot of snow on the ground like it is nothing. So I'm curious how that compares to a commercial loader.


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## JDiepstra

You're putting too much thought into this one man. You want to buy an Oshkosh, a snowblower, and a dump truck to get snow off a lot? Are you also going to use 3 operators or are you going to play "musical vehicles" and run all three of them? 

Most of these large parking lots are never filled to capacity except for around Christmas anyway and there is no way you are going to get most companies to pay for snow removal if they don't really need it. 

But yes it has been done before. There are some cool videos on this site of a blower loading a dump truck. I don't remember whose videos they were though. Maybe JDDave.


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## Grn Mtn

ConnorExum;975562 said:


> I think obviously would factor in the removal costs into estimate if it required long distance removal. However, if you're doing it on site I wouldn't charge much extra. For example in the town next to mine Catskill (well 27miles away, that is pretty next to the area I live) there is a Home Depot with a huge drop off on one side that is about 100feet into the Catskill Creek. Now when I go to the Home Depot for stuff I always see these massive piles of snow. And I've always wondered why stack into piles in the parking lot if you could just use the loader to dump it into the streams. I know perhaps there are EPA regulations on the dumping of snow I'm not aware of but really how bad can it be for the stream if they let 2cycle outboard motors run in the water?
> 
> So I have a question how fast can you clear a lot with a commercial sized loader like a CAT 950? It seems it would slower than a big former road truck. I've seen some of those older road trucks plowing at 20-30mph with a good foot of snow on the ground like it is nothing. So I'm curious how that compares to a commercial loader.


when bidding, if you include hauling into your bid, your bid will be higher and you will not be awarded the contract. honestly the people reading your bids don't look at all the numbers, even if you end up being less expensive in the long run, it all comes down to the per push price. around here there is a company that is infamous for giving away the plowing but he more than double makes up for it with salting, but his plowing bid was $500 cheaper per push so he gets awarded the bid.

even if your hauling on-site vs off-site your costs are the same, just the time is different, if you charge less (other than the time factor) your just hurting your ability to replace/repair equipment in the future.

have you ever hit a manhole at 20-30 mph  plowing a lot is usually done between 10-15 mph depending on time of day/amount of people around. I have not used (the company I work for in the winter) the cat loaders with 22' pushers but I do use the backhoes with 14' pushers. the time savings is amazing over a truck. 1 pass with the pusher instead of 2-3 with the truck on the main drag. at the end of a run you just stack the load off into the grass or corner of the lot.

The DEC does not allow you to put snow into the water table. lots of red tape there and double standards (the city of Rochester can dump into the river but I can't).


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## jomama45

ConnorExum;975562 said:


> I think obviously would factor in the removal costs into estimate if it required long distance removal. However, if you're doing it on site I wouldn't charge much extra. For example in the town next to mine Catskill (well 27miles away, that is pretty next to the area I live) there is a Home Depot with a huge drop off on one side that is about 100feet into the Catskill Creek. Now when I go to the Home Depot for stuff I always see these massive piles of snow. And I've always wondered why stack into piles in the parking lot if you could just use the loader to dump it into the streams. I know perhaps there are EPA regulations on the dumping of snow I'm not aware of but really how bad can it be for the stream if they let 2cycle outboard motors run in the water?
> 
> *Connor, yes, often times it has to do with "beurocratic" regulations. You can't push snow directly into water ways, but it can naturally melt & feed the stream. Their mentallity usually is that any vegetation on the way to the stream will assist in filtering the water. These scenarios are often worked out in the environmental impact study done before the construction of the development is approved.*
> 
> So I have a question how fast can you clear a lot with a commercial sized loader like a CAT 950? It seems it would slower than a big former road truck. I've seen some of those older road trucks plowing at 20-30mph with a good foot of snow on the ground like it is nothing. So I'm curious how that compares to a commercial loader.


You may see a big tandem or tri axle doing 20-30 on a road, but that's a whole different animal than a parking lot. A loader like a 950 can probably travel at 20-23 MPH on the road, but will seldom see much over 10-15 mph in a lot. The main difference between productivity of these two pieces is the implement on the front. You may be able to plow & windrow 16' at a time with the truck, but in reality you're only carrying a few yards at a time to it's final destination. Where as a loader of that size with a 16' pusher can carry 20+ yards of snow to it's final destination on each pass.

Take a look at "Neige"s past posts & you'll see a few places where he's used a loader w/ blower. He even has some good video.


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## Grn Mtn

JDiepstra;975567 said:


> ...There are some cool videos on this site of a blower loading a dump truck. I don't remember whose videos they were though. Maybe JDDave.


ya, think your right, I remember that one.


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## ConnorExum

Grn Mtn;975586 said:


> when bidding, if you include hauling into your bid, your bid will be higher and you will not be awarded the contract. honestly the people reading your bids don't look at all the numbers, even if you end up being less expensive in the long run, it all comes down to the per push price. around here there is a company that is infamous for giving away the plowing but he more than double makes up for it with salting, but his plowing bid was $500 cheaper per push so he gets awarded the bid.
> 
> even if your hauling on-site vs off-site your costs are the same, just the time is different, if you charge less (other than the time factor) your just hurting your ability to replace/repair equipment in the future.
> 
> have you ever hit a manhole at 20-30 mph  plowing a lot is usually done between 10-15 mph depending on time of day/amount of people around. I have not used (the company I work for in the winter) the cat loaders with 22' pushers but I do use the backhoes with 14' pushers. the time savings is amazing over a truck. 1 pass with the pusher instead of 2-3 with the truck on the main drag. at the end of a run you just stack the load off into the grass or corner of the lot.
> 
> The DEC does not allow you to put snow into the water table. lots of red tape there and double standards (the city of Rochester can dump into the river but I can't).


I figured that the DEC might have dumping issues with snow into the water systems. I've never hit a manhole cover at 20-30mph with an Oshkosh truck. My guess is that it would probably rip the cover right out and it wouldn't be much of an obstacle to a 40,000LBS+ GVW truck fully loaded. But that is just my guess.

Are you speaking of a normal sized truck? I was thinking an Oshkosh with a 14ft-Power Angle plow and a 12-14ft wing so you could in theory have a clearing area of about 26-28ft almost depending on how you angle your plows. Plus you would have a speed advantage in some parking lots with no man hole covers. Say you could cruise around a big lot at 20mph pushing like 20-24ft of combined plow this would seem to have the same clearing ability that a loader would have with a pusher-system. However, the stacking might be an issue.

Another advantage I would surmise is that if you are small company going between large lots in an area; say you have 10 commercial lots to clear and the distance is 4 miles between them. You have 40 miles to cover in total, it would seem a truck with a road speed of 40-45mph would be an advantage in travel time, when compared to a vehicle doing a little more than half that speed.

Thanks for the information... I'm just spit-balling ideas.


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## Grn Mtn

hadn't thought about the wing addition, aren't the muni rigs standard? might have a lot of shifting going on, there are always cars in the lots and the articulating loader can maneuver better than the truck and in a pinch (literally) you can lift the pusher over cars parked too close together


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## ConnorExum

JDiepstra;975567 said:


> You're putting too much thought into this one man. You want to buy an Oshkosh, a snowblower, and a dump truck to get snow off a lot? Are you also going to use 3 operators or are you going to play "musical vehicles" and run all three of them?
> 
> Most of these large parking lots are never filled to capacity except for around Christmas anyway and there is no way you are going to get most companies to pay for snow removal if they don't really need it.
> 
> But yes it has been done before. There are some cool videos on this site of a blower loading a dump truck. I don't remember whose videos they were though. Maybe JDDave.


You can never put too much thought into anything. I do want the Oshkosh. I just figured if I've got one why not use it for more than just the occasional drive around town to show off my baby. I figured why not put it to work. As for the size of the workforce that is not clear yet.


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## ConnorExum

Grn Mtn;975634 said:


> hadn't thought about the wing addition, aren't the muni rigs standard? might have a lot of shifting going on, there are always cars in the lots and the articulating loader can maneuver better than the truck and in a pinch (literally) you can lift the pusher over cars parked too close together


The wing isn't always on the muni-trucks some have only a front plow if so it is usually a pwr-angle set up. Some have one wing, two wings and even a belly scraper. parked cars are a problem. You would be in trouble if you hit one with a wing.. But that's why you need a smaller more agile truck to do clean up.


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## rob_cook2001

If you are a small company you should not be trying to clear 10 big(lowes, homedepo) size lots.
I agree the big trucks are cool and they kick A$$ on the road but in a lot nothing will keep up with a loader/pusher. Some times no matter how bad you want it that "toy" is not justified lol.
Robert


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## Grn Mtn

ConnorExum;975646 said:


> ..... But that's why you need a smaller more agile truck to do clean up.


ahhh, but that is just it, you have hit the proverbial head of the nail: If you are a smaller one man operation, the Oshkosh cannot fill all the roles necessary.

we use Cat 420 backhoe's with 14' pushers on the majority of our lots. The 9 series Cat loaders are on only the largest of lots. The Loaders are accompanied by F550's with 9' v-plows/2 yard salters and sidewalk crews. the backhoes tend to be solo opps used on 2 acre or less lots, either sit on-site or travel short distances to another location.

So yes the Oshkosh has a nostalgic "cool" factor, but the small articulating loader or mid series backhoe would be a better choice for single opps. as to long travel distances, sub out the longer stuff and just keep your route tight so you can drive the loader/backhoe from site to site.


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## ConnorExum

rob_cook2001;975647 said:


> If you are a small company you should not be trying to clear 10 big(lowes, homedepo) size lots.
> I agree the big trucks are cool and they kick A$$ on the road but in a lot nothing will keep up with a loader/pusher. Some times no matter how bad you want it that "toy" is not justified lol.
> Robert


Why shouldn't a small company try to do ten big lots? I mean you have to aim-big in my book or go home. As for the justification everything can be justified, it is just a matter of how pretzel like do you like your reasoning.

So when I worked at UPS in my college days I was always out on the Airport Ramp, we one the airport in Louisville Kentucky. So we had a company that would clean this airport if we got soon. We got a storm one Jan. or Feb. that put like four to six inches of snow on the ground. They had these huge 22ft high speed run plows and remember a run way can be like 100ft wide sometimes and they would put two trucks or three trucks and just cruise down the runway at 30-40mph and just move an insane amount of snow.

So I'm thinking that if I can get a big Runway style plow on the front of the truck say 17-19ft plow might be the biggest I can get on the highway. I like the Wausau plows they look pretty rugged. But right now I'm just spit-balling this stuff around.

http://www.wausau-everest.com/file_...e_type=pdf&extension=.pdf&file_check_result=1


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## ConnorExum

Grn Mtn;975696 said:


> ahhh, but that is just it, you have hit the proverbial head of the nail: If you are a smaller one man operation, the Oshkosh cannot fill all the roles necessary.
> 
> we use Cat 420 backhoe's with 14' pushers on the majority of our lots. The 9 series Cat loaders are on only the largest of lots. The Loaders are accompanied by F550's with 9' v-plows/2 yard salters and sidewalk crews. the backhoes tend to be solo opps used on 2 acre or less lots, either sit on-site or travel short distances to another location.
> 
> So yes the Oshkosh has a nostalgic "cool" factor, but the small articulating loader or mid series backhoe would be a better choice for single opps. as to long travel distances, sub out the longer stuff and just keep your route tight so you can drive the loader/backhoe from site to site.


I don't think I can do it by myself at all. I think I will need a crew of people. I'm thinking three extra people maybe four. I don't know the idea is just not plowing snow it is part of much bigger idea.


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## JDiepstra

This thread is turning into one of those 100 car pileups on the highway during blizzard conditions. No offense,


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## ConnorExum

JDiepstra;975751 said:


> This thread is turning into one of those 100 car pileups on the highway during blizzard conditions. No offense,


I don't see why you are saying that. This is very civilized.


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## 2COR517

Connor...

You should buy your dream Oshkosh, set it up with the 14 foot blade, 12 foot wings on each side, belly scraper, etc. Get your Unimogs with 40 gears, put a snowblower on one. Couple of spreaders, you're good to go. I bet in the thousands of books you have read, one of them spells out how to get a government grant to buy all this crap. Once you get setup, go ahead and figure out how long it would take to clear a ten acre lot, factor in your operating costs, and submit some bids. If you don't get laughed at with your ridiculous ancient equipment list, and actually are awarded a contract, let us know how it goes.

Maybe you should go back to school for a few more years and study this first.

BTW, what's wrong with two-stroke outboards running in a river/stream?


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## cretebaby

2COR517;975786 said:


> BTW, what's wrong with two-stroke outboards running in a river/stream?


Or killing animals?


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## jomama45

Good Luck to you 2 "clowns" above me. Assuming he has me on his ignore list, I'd imagine you guys may be there as well!!!!! xysportxysportxysport


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## ConnorExum

2COR517;975786 said:


> Connor...
> 
> You should buy your dream Oshkosh, set it up with the 14 foot blade, 12 foot wings on each side, belly scraper, etc. Get your Unimogs with 40 gears, put a snowblower on one. Couple of spreaders, you're good to go. I bet in the thousands of books you have read, one of them spells out how to get a government grant to buy all this crap. Once you get setup, go ahead and figure out how long it would take to clear a ten acre lot, factor in your operating costs, and submit some bids. If you don't get laughed at with your ridiculous ancient equipment list, and actually are awarded a contract, let us know how it goes.
> 
> Maybe you should go back to school for a few more years and study this first.
> 
> BTW, what's wrong with two-stroke outboards running in a river/stream?


That would be an awesome truck--the Oshkosh you're describing, that is. I think 14 is the biggest I can put on the truck and still drive it around. I would like a bigger 18 or 24 ft plow but I don't think it can angle enough to be road legal for driving to and from locations. The Mogs are great because they are like little tanks: if you put a Schmidt 12ft plow and Schmidt Snow Cutter on the trucks you can do a lot work. The Unimog only has a 20spd transmission, they have this super-low crawl gear where it crawls at 1meter per hour for pulling extreme loads like an unloaded train car weighing about 100,000lbs. So that is really useful for snow-blower operations because you just crawl through a big pile and if you have Snow-Cutter that does 1,800 tons per hour your really cooking.

Also the Unimogs are great for residential areas. They small agile powerful and have capabilities that really make them far superior to say a 1/2,3/4 or 1ton truck. In fact they are sort of in the same league as F450. They are just gutsy little things with superior traction given that have full locking differentials and with chains on them I've seen them do some amazing work. They have like 30-32ft turning radius the model I like the 406series U900. I think they offer some outstanding performance for their size and fully loaded with a plow and sander I think they would be unstoppable little residential machines.

I figure the key is in staging the battle plan it is all in the way you work the operation. First you rough the lot in with the high speed trucks and they push the snow to one or two convenient locations where you have one Snow-Blower truck and dump truck you load up the dump truck take it away get another and another bang you're done. And in some locations you can probably blow snow into wooded areas or other locations. 
So it would be like this : 
Crew A is the rough in crew they speed to the lots rough them in and moves
on to the next lot.
Crew B: does the fine detail work and moves on.
Crew C: does the final clean up and perhaps they remove the snow maybe 
they just consolidate the snow.
Repeat process as necessary. I think specialization and cracker-jack timing is the key.

Also the collected snow that you dump, well I live in a Ski area... I wonder if the Ski places would buy the snow for packing into the base. I remember hearing about how when the Winter Olympics were in Japan a few years ago they needed to truck snow from all over Japan to the mountains so they could make a base for blowing snow on. I wonder if there is a market for this excess snow in local snow making industries. Creating snow is costly and if you can get cheap snow that makes a decent base I could see this being a good solution. I don't know I'll have to check that out.

As for the grant that is great idea, and I do plan on doing something like that. As for my progress well I'll keep you informed. I've got big plans for this brainstorm I had a week ago.

As for doing a 10acre lot, I'm not sure how fast I can do it in. I suspect with the proper set up I can do it just as fast and just as well with this setup as everyone with a loader. And that is part of the idea I have.

I've been in the service industry with my father's business for along time and really customers don't care what sort of equipment you use most of the time. Sure state of the art and high tech looks great on websites but really at the end of the day it is quality and price that says everything. There are many ways to market your skills and your equipment and the key is to show your customers your assets and make any perceived deficiency an asset.


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## ConnorExum

cretebaby;975793 said:


> Or killing animals?


What's wrong with killing animals is that assumes we are more important than other animal life on the planet. After all if we a rational beings with the ability to adapt to our surrounds why must we assume that superior intellect, tool usage, and population of all the land based mammals makes us in a position to prey on the others?


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## Grn Mtn

ConnorExum;975712 said:


> Why shouldn't a small company try to do ten big lots? ....
> because you will crash and burn, so have the banks, who will deny your loan
> 
> They had these huge 22ft high speed run plows and remember a run way can be like 100ft wide sometimes and they would put two trucks or three trucks and just cruise down the runway at 30-40mph and just move an insane amount of snow. I wondered how long the airport equipment would get into this conversation...So I'm thinking that if I can get a big Runway style plow on the front of the truck say 17-19ft plow might be the biggest I can get on the highway. ....


okay now I'm back to asking how old you are...seriously... your going to plow a lot at 40mph with "a big Runway style plow". Thats like the kid in another thread saying...."I would get an F550 diesel full light bar and strobe package, 9' v on the front 16' pull plow on the rear. I'm going to plow ALL commercial and this is just my first time out, did I mention I'm still in HS....."

sorry, but one minute you sound like you have some clue and a bit of innovation, the next these hair brained completely off the wall ideas spit out.


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## ConnorExum

2COR517;975786 said:


> Connor...
> 
> You should buy your dream Oshkosh, set it up with the 14 foot blade, 12 foot wings on each side, belly scraper, etc. Get your Unimogs with 40 gears, put a snowblower on one. Couple of spreaders, you're good to go. I bet in the thousands of books you have read, one of them spells out how to get a government grant to buy all this crap. Once you get setup, go ahead and figure out how long it would take to clear a ten acre lot, factor in your operating costs, and submit some bids. If you don't get laughed at with your ridiculous ancient equipment list, and actually are awarded a contract, let us know how it goes.
> 
> Maybe you should go back to school for a few more years and study this first.
> 
> BTW, what's wrong with two-stroke outboards running in a river/stream?


Two-Stroke outboard motors often exhaust alot of their excess lubricating oil that is unburnt directly into the body of water they being used in. Inboards will do it some extent too but the point was that if the EPA is worried about oils, fuels, and other debris from the roads being trapped in the snow that is dumped into streams; they should also worry about the types of power-plants that we use in them too for boats.


----------



## 2COR517

ConnorExum;975839 said:


> As for the grant that is great idea, and I do plan on doing something like that.


Of course you do. You hate the government, except when it's time for a hand out. Then you are first in line.

It's funny really. There are guys here who have emoved millions of tons of snow from thousands of acres for decades. And to think they've been pissing money away on push boxes, tractors & loaders that cost ten to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You're going to put us all out of Business Connor!

Wait a minute, that sounds like capatalism. And I know you hate capitalists more than the government.


----------



## ConnorExum

Grn Mtn;975846 said:


> okay now I'm back to asking how old you are...seriously... your going to plow a lot at 40mph with "a big Runway style plow". Thats like the kid in another thread saying...."I would get an F550 diesel full light bar and strobe package, 9' v on the front 16' pull plow on the rear. I'm going to plow ALL commercial and this is just my first time out, did I mention I'm still in HS....."
> 
> sorry, but one minute you sound like you have some clue and a bit of innovation, the next these hair brained completely off the wall ideas spit out.


I didn't say I was going to plow at forty mph I merely said I've personally experienced the trucks operating at extreme speeds with these large runway type plows and I wonder if they could be adapted to work at slower speeds say 15-20mph for big lots. But if you had a big enough run I don't see why you couldn't plow some sections at 20-35mph with one of these mega plows. If you've got a lot that has say 50 or 60 square acres of parking lot that is flat with few obstacles in the way I don't see why you cannot do 20-30mph on the access ways and then slow down to slow speeds for other areas.


----------



## 2COR517

ConnorExum;975844 said:


> What's wrong with killing animals is that assumes we are more important than other animal life on the planet. After all if we a rational beings with the ability to adapt to our surrounds why must we assume that superior intellect, tool usage, and population of all the land based mammals makes us in a position to prey on the others?


Humans are superior to all other animals. God said it very clearly in Genisis 1:28. I won't post it here, but they gist of it says that man shall have dominion over all animals.

Jesus himself fed 5,000 with a basket of fish.


----------



## KBTConst

Didn't you want to know what was better for big lots? there is alot of guys telling you but you can't seem to get it so why did you ask?


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;975853 said:


> Of course you do. You hate the government, except when it's time for a hand out. Then you are first in line.
> 
> It's funny really. There are guys here who have emoved millions of tons of snow from thousands of acres for decades. And to think they've been pissing money away on push boxes, tractors & loaders that cost ten to hundreds of thousands of dollars.
> 
> You're going to put us all out of Business Connor!
> 
> Wait a minute, that sounds like capatalism. And I know you hate capitalists more than the government.


Actually, I don't hate the government. I just find governments are fundamentally flawed institutions that formalize the power of the strong over the weak and only in a limited do they really represent the needs of the people they control. But that isn't hatred for the government.

Actually, the business model I'm purposing is actually more like a shared ownership model where all the profits are pooled and money disturbed amongst the employees. Totally collectivized in nature actually.

Why is getting a grant getting a hand out. If the grant money is there to be used by the public not using it is only foolishness.

I don't think anyone is pissing away their money actually 2Cors17 I think that most problems have several solutions. And if you look at the strategies that people employ they are probably due to certain constraints on the number of operators, the size of locations, and other factors. But usually you'll find that in most models you'll have a couple of solutions that work equally well. So this my solution to the problem and it is untested but I think it will work.

I'm really banking on your attitude that I'm an upstart and I want to put you out of business because frankly I don't my real objective is slightly different.


----------



## 2COR517

Do you intend to retrofit all your equipment with clean running engines? Or is that part of your excuse to scam the taxpayer out of thousands of dollars?

Do you think this "Free" government money grows on trees? You do realize that those programs are funded by tax dollars, don't you?


----------



## ConnorExum

KBTConst;975861 said:


> Didn't you want to know what was better for big lots? there is alot of guys telling you but you can't seem to get it so why did you ask?


I felt like discuss all the pros and cons. I mean really this just spit balling. I understand all the benefits of the loaders, skid-steers and so on but, I'm not completely sold on the fact that they are the only answer to the problem of snow removal. I thought that debate was actually the point of a message board.

I've seen the loaders in action and they are great but I'm not sure they are the only way to go. I think that snowblowers with dump trucks offer a better clean up system in some respects. For example with a big loader you're going to make a big pile than you're going to have to eventually remove said push-box to use the bucket to load a dump truck. Well why do that? Of course you could have 2-4-6-8-10 loaders on one property but, that means you have to have your resources scattered around work area. Which is fine if you have a great number of resources but I want to maximize a limited number of resources and get the most bang for the buck if you will. So that means I need vehicles that can travel between big lots. I'm looking for flexible solutions that provide a balance between ability to travel and reduced time on the lots.


----------



## jomama45

ConnorExum;975863 said:


> Actually, I don't hate the government. I just find governments are fundamentally flawed institutions that formalize the power of the strong over the weak and only in a limited do they really represent the needs of the people they control. But that isn't hatred for the government.
> 
> Actually, the business model I'm purposing is actually more like a shared ownership model where all the profits are pooled and money disturbed amongst the employees. Totally collectivized in nature actually.
> 
> Why is getting a grant getting a hand out. If the grant money is there to be used by the public not using it is only foolishness.
> 
> I don't think anyone is pissing away their money actually 2Cors17 I think that most problems have several solutions. And if you look at the strategies that people employ they are probably due to certain constraints on the number of operators, the size of locations, and other factors. But usually you'll find that in most models you'll have a couple of solutions that work equally well. *So this my solution to the problem and it is untested but I think it will work. *
> I'm really banking on your attitude that I'm an upstart and I want to put you out of business because frankly I don't my real objective is slightly different.


IMO, you couldn't be any farther from the truth with that statement. If you don't actually think that everyone of these logistics has been tested & thought through by thousands of small business people, you're clearly ignorant. Just because you have zero experience in commercial snow removal & are young doesn't mean these waters haven't been tested. You appear to believe that heavy, combersome trucks w/ straight blades are somehow a high-tech approach to snow removal on big lots. In all actuality, you're mindset is clearly going back to the "Renaisance" era of snow plowing where windrowing was king.


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;975870 said:


> Do you intend to retrofit all your equipment with clean running engines? Or is that part of your excuse to scam the taxpayer out of thousands of dollars?
> 
> Do you think this "Free" government money grows on trees? You do realize that those programs are funded by tax dollars, don't you?


Actually, I do plan on running the trucks on Biodiesel at least B20 but really mostly B100. I do believe this will help with the grant. That is very important that we switch to greener ways of producing energy. I fully believe that. As for the being free money. I didn't say that, I just said it would be foolish to not attempt to use the resources our government provides. I pay taxes and why shouldn't when I need help ask for it?

There are no scams here. If I can prove Biodiesel is a viable energy source for heavy equipment what is so bad with that? If you're true capitalist you would want alternative energy sources as a consumer because this creates competition in the free market. Only if you have a huge stack in big oil would you want to block alternative energy sources since that reduces your market share. So what is a scam about proving that biodiesel is viable and should be mass produced?


----------



## SuperdutyShane

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 

Honestly, all I have to say.

You have to be in the 15-22 year old range. If not, then... Well, Im sorry. Haha.


----------



## SuperdutyShane

Here we go...


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;975874 said:


> IMO, you couldn't be any farther from the truth with that statement. If you don't actually think that everyone of these logistics has been tested & thought through by thousands of small business people, you're clearly ignorant. Just because you have zero experience in commercial snow removal & are young doesn't mean these waters haven't been tested. You appear to believe that heavy, combersome trucks w/ straight blades are somehow a high-tech approach to snow removal on big lots. In all actuality, you're mindset is clearly going back to the "Renaisance" era of snow plowing where windrowing was king.


What is untested about my approach or I believe it to be untested is that a specific pattern of clearing can be more efficient then others. I've been looking at parking lots and flow patterns and I think I've developed a pattern that would be very effective for a big truck to do it. Now I don't believe this pattern will work with a loader but I think it will be efficient with a big truck. I have to do more calculations. That is really what I believe is untested.


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;975859 said:


> Humans are superior to all other animals. God said it very clearly in Genisis 1:28. I won't post it here, but they gist of it says that man shall have dominion over all animals.
> 
> Jesus himself fed 5,000 with a basket of fish.


You know what Socrates said about gods and ethics right?


----------



## 2COR517

He is also forgetting that in the time it takes to get that Oshkosh through the first three gears and up to speed, the loader is already at the end of the run and putting all the snow where he wants it, not under the parked cars on the side.

Not to mention the better visibility of the loader, which makes it tremendously safer to operate in a busy lot. Loader can turn on a dime, carry snow exactly where it needs to go, in decent comfort for the operator. How long do you think an operator is going to last double clutching that Oshkosh non stop? Always checking mirrors, waiting for the wing to come up. Can't see the wing, etc.

If Connor truly did his homework, he would see that plowing commercial lots with dumps and wings went out about 20 years. Guys have been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

Connor - if you want an Oshkosh, buy one. Just buy it. Play with it. Put eight blades on it. Whatever you want. But don't come here looking for guys to encourage you to do it for commercial lot plowing. Otherwise we have to presume you are just a troll looking to cause trouble.

Oshkosh trucks have their place, and are used every snowstorm all over the country. They are great for plowing roads. Not parking lots.

Plus, they probably are/were *not* union made, which means some poor sucker that thought he was making a good living building a quality product didn't realize he was getting screwed by "the man"


----------



## ConnorExum

SuperdutyShane;975885 said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
> 
> Honestly, all I have to say.
> 
> You have to be in the 15-22 year old range. If not, then... Well, Im sorry. Haha.


Your a funny kid.


----------



## 2COR517

SuperdutyShane;975885 said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
> 
> Honestly, all I have to say.
> 
> You have to be in the 15-22 year old range. If not, then... Well, Im sorry. Haha.


Well said Shane.:salute:


----------



## 2COR517

ConnorExum;975891 said:


> You know what Socrates said about gods and ethics right?


Nope. Enlighten us oh great one.


----------



## jomama45

ConnorExum;975888 said:


> What is untested about my approach or *I believe it to be untested* is that a specific pattern of clearing can be more efficient then others. I've been looking at parking lots and flow patterns and I think I've developed a pattern that would be very effective for a big truck to do it. Now I don't believe this pattern will work with a loader but I think it will be efficient with a big truck. I have to do more calculations. That is really what I believe is untested.


I would tend to believe there is nothing left untested when it comes to big trucks with straight blades in big parking lots and tens of thousands of different minds operating these trucks for millions of colaborative hours through time. If you had first hand experience plowing these lots commercially you would understand that after countless hours your mind is constantly reaching for more efficient ways to clear said lot. It's clear that you don't have an inkling as to what your operating costs would be, the amount of acreage per hour per piece may be, mush less what these lots pay for removal. I can't argue that this "high-tech" system you speak of won't work, but I can promise that it won't be competive in the real world.


----------



## JDiepstra

JDiepstra;975751 said:


> This thread is turning into one of those 100 car pileups on the highway during blizzard conditions. No offense,





ConnorExum;975776 said:


> I don't see why you are saying that. This is very civilized.


Hahahaha the pile-up continues!!!!!!!!!!

So far, noone agrees with you. What does that tell you?

And what is your obsession with removing the snow from the property?


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;975899 said:


> I would tend to believe there is nothing left untested when it comes to big trucks with straight blades in big parking lots and tens of thousands of different minds operating these trucks for millions of colaborative hours through time. If you had first hand experience plowing these lots commercially you would understand that after countless hours your mind is constantly reaching for more efficient ways to clear said lot. It's clear that you don't have an inking as to what your operating costs would be, the amount of acreage per hour per piece may be, mush less what these lots pay for removal. I can't argue that this "high-tech" system you speak of won't work, but I can promise that it won't be competive in the real world.


Do you use a linear pattern with your snow-pusher? What I've seen is a very basic linear pattern which seems to me to be inefficient. I've never seen a snow-pusher push snow starting around the perimeter of area to the center. I've always seen linear paths to one central locations. When I did the modeling last night I saw that when you push to one side or another in a linear fashion you have to also clean up more when you account for spill over on the sides of pusher which you will have. when you use a descending pattern from the outside to the inside you don't have that issue becuase you're always plowing alittle over the same ground but you push the snow to the center of the area where you want the big pile any way. So your truck might do twice the work at times but it is always towards the final goal.


----------



## ConnorExum

JDiepstra;975915 said:


> Hahahaha the pile-up continues!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> So far, noone agrees with you. What does that tell you?
> 
> And what is your obsession with removing the snow from the property?


OCD... I guess my obsession stems for the fact that every parking lot or large area has a finite amount of surface area. Sooner or later you have to remove something to regain usable space.

What would the world be if we all agreed on everything. Plus, I like I've been saying this is not serious I mean if you want to disagree with my ideas fine. I'm not saying that anyone is right or wrong, I just think that people can use another method and still be competitive in the market if they use their equipment correctly.


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;975892 said:


> He is also forgetting that in the time it takes to get that Oshkosh through the first three gears and up to speed, the loader is already at the end of the run and putting all the snow where he wants it, not under the parked cars on the side.
> 
> Not to mention the better visibility of the loader, which makes it tremendously safer to operate in a busy lot. Loader can turn on a dime, carry snow exactly where it needs to go, in decent comfort for the operator. How long do you think an operator is going to last double clutching that Oshkosh non stop? Always checking mirrors, waiting for the wing to come up. Can't see the wing, etc.
> 
> If Connor truly did his homework, he would see that plowing commercial lots with dumps and wings went out about 20 years. Guys have been there, done that, have the t-shirt.
> 
> Connor - if you want an Oshkosh, buy one. Just buy it. Play with it. Put eight blades on it. Whatever you want. But don't come here looking for guys to encourage you to do it for commercial lot plowing. Otherwise we have to presume you are just a troll looking to cause trouble.
> 
> Oshkosh trucks have their place, and are used every snowstorm all over the country. They are great for plowing roads. Not parking lots.
> 
> Plus, they probably are/were *not* union made, which means some poor sucker that thought he was making a good living building a quality product didn't realize he was getting screwed by "the man"


One, I like double clutching... I find the Oshkosh trucks that I've test driven to be very easy to drive. Even the ones with the 5+4 gearboxes that I dont' drive often. Usually I drive a straight 5spd with a 2spd transfer case and really many old Oshkoshs' are set up this way too so they are easy to drive. The 5+4 can get a little tricky when you're trying to figure out do I shift the aux or main box... But I figure I've got all summer to get used to driving it.

Maybe I am using an older method, but I think I can put a crinkle in it where I can make it productive and competitive.

I don't understand you nonunion comment at all. you'll have to explain that to me.

because I don't want to jump on the band wagon for snow pushers I'm a troll? I thought we could just discuss the pros and cons of the operating systems in civilized manner. And I agree the loaders have a lot pluses going for them. I don't think they offer the proper strategy for what I want to do.

As for the crowded parking lots well they are going to give any one problems. But I think the smaller agile Unimogs would work well in those scenarios.


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;975896 said:


> Nope. Enlighten us oh great one.


Well old Socrates when asked what was Pius responded with is it Pius because the Gods say so or is Pius because the act itself is Pius. Meaning essentially that is something right because God says so or is right because right is external to God and it cannot determine what is right or wrong only obey it.


----------



## JD Dave

Nothing will out plow an Oshkosh with a 12ft plow and 2 14 ft wings. not even a loader with a 20ft pusher. I just happen to have a 1990 Oshkosh setup like that and it's for sale if anyone wants it.


----------



## ConnorExum

JD Dave;975954 said:


> Nothing will out plow an Oshkosh with a 12ft plow and 2 14 ft wings. not even a loader with a 20ft pusher. I just happen to have a 1990 Oshkosh setup like that and it's for sale if anyone wants it.


I like your truck... I just don't have the $15,600 for it. But if something changes I would buy your truck in a heartbeat...


----------



## jomama45

ConnorExum;975922 said:


> Do you use a linear pattern with your snow-pusher? What I've seen is a very basic linear pattern which seems to me to be inefficient.
> 
> Handling snow once is more productive than handling snow multiple times, you've said this yourself in an earlier post. A pusher takes the snow to it's final destination right away. It may seem to be inefficient somehow, but I guess you won't understnd until you actually experience it yourself.
> 
> I've never seen a snow-pusher push snow starting around the perimeter of area to the center.
> 
> Then you've obviuosly only witness operators who actually knew what they were doing.
> 
> I've always seen linear paths to one central locations.
> 
> Make up your mind, are they pushing it to the center or the edges?
> 
> When I did the modeling last night I saw that when you push to one side or another in a linear fashion you have to also clean up more when you account for spill over on the sides of pusher which you will have.
> 
> Since when don't plows spill over? I'm afraid your "model" isn't a very good representation of real world plowing.
> 
> when you use a descending pattern from the outside to the inside you don't have that issue becuase you're always plowing alittle over the same ground but you push the snow to the center of the area where you want the big pile any way.
> 
> Who wants the pile in the middle? You're going to have to move it again if you put it in the middle. You need to understand as well that after a few passes in the truck & decent snow depth, even an Oshkosh is not going to be effective at movign this huge windrow. One more thing, say by some crazy weather phenomonon, it actually snows during the hours in which the customer is open. Now there perhaps be cars parked in this "middle" ground. What do you do if this happens?
> 
> So your truck might do twice the work at times but it is always towards the final goal.


If your final goal is to handle the snow multiple times and take a longer time to do so, then YES, you'll achieve that goal.



ConnorExum;975927 said:


> OCD... I guess my obsession stems for the fact that every parking lot or large area has a finite amount of surface area. Sooner or later you have to remove something to regain usable space.
> 
> Correct, here in WI we call that time "winter thaws" as well as "spring", & "Mother Nature" is a far more cost effective contractor than any of us are. Most large commercial businesses will not pay to remove snow from the property with the optimistic mindset that it may snow alot more. Do you have some way of knowing how much more snow we are guaranteed to get? If it stopped snowing now until the end of the season, would you be willing to return all their money they wasted to have you take their snow off site when it didn't need to?
> 
> What would the world be if we all agreed on everything. Plus, I like I've been saying this is not serious I mean if you want to disagree with my ideas fine. I'm not saying that anyone is right or wrong, I just think that people can use another method and still be competitive in the market if they use their equipment correctly.


There are plenty of time-tested ideas in these pages, most are indeed different. They have evolved through alot of time, effort & risk, and there still is room for improvement. I have a hard time believing Oshkosh trucks with straight blades are going to be at the front of this movement though.


----------



## jomama45

JD Dave;975954 said:


> Nothing will out plow an Oshkosh with a 12ft plow and 2 14 ft wings. not even a loader with a 20ft pusher. I just happen to have a 1990 Oshkosh setup like that and it's for sale if anyone wants it.


Dave is it true that the Oshkosh is just too efficient for you in your lots & you're only selling it because you ran out of room to store anymore of your money? Or are you just giving the local competion a chance to catch up so your "hobby" of snowplowing will regain some amusement? :laughing::laughing::laughing:



ConnorExum;975956 said:


> I like your truck... I just don't have the $15,600 for it. But if something changes I would buy your truck in a heartbeat...


Connor, I'd be the first to send Dave some cash just so I could see some "real world" pics of your operation. But I think you should probably stick to your Dad's 1/2 ton P/U for a while & get that mastered before buying Dave's truck. Sorry Dave.


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;975974 said:


> Dave is it true that the Oshkosh is just too efficient for you in your lots & you're only selling it because you ran out of room to store anymore of your money? Or are you just giving the local competion a chance to catch up so your "hobby" of snowplowing will regain some amusement? :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Connor, I'd be the first to send Dave some cash just so I could see some "real world" pics of your operation. But I think you should probably stick to your Dad's 1/2 ton P/U for a while & get that mastered before buying Dave's truck. Sorry Dave.


Thanks for the offer, but I have one I'm looking into that is much closer... I'll post pictures of it soon. It is older than Dave's but it is a beauty. It has NH220 743cid engine, I plan on putting a turbo on it when I convert it over to biodiesel so I can get a little extra performance out of it. Also I'm thinking of putting the air-cleaner outside the hood so I can squeaze in an air-to-water intercooler and perhaps an aftercooler as well. If I want to get really exotic I'm thinking MW-50 injection system as well. The MW-50 is mostly to increase fuel economy when pushing hard.It will allow more fuel to be burnt. But I think it will be killer.

I'm sensing that you believe an Oshkosh is too big for me to handle? Well that's okay, I'll show you the pictures of it when I get it.


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;975957 said:


> If your final goal is to handle the snow multiple times and take a longer time to do so, then YES, you'll achieve that goal.
> 
> There are plenty of time-tested ideas in these pages, most are indeed different. They have evolved through alot of time, effort & risk, and there still is room for improvement. I have a hard time believing Oshkosh trucks with straight blades are going to be at the front of this movement though.


So here is the thing with spill over, yes, all plows spill over. However, if you can get the majority of the spillage to be in the direction you want the pile to be in anyway you have no problem sure you plow pushes a little extra snow but if you do a pattern of ever tightening squares just so long as they are not too big. you can get nice neat little piles in the parking lot that can be easily captured by a snowblower of sufficient size in a dump truck and removed from the lot.

I one of the reasons why I talk about flexiblity is that big-lots are only part of my objective, other areas include large private roads, housing complexes, and other areas like that. You see where I live skiing is very popular and people want turn the town into a mini-Tahoe. It is futile but, it is the goal.


----------



## 2COR517

ConnorExum;975956 said:


> I like your truck... I just don't have the $15,600 for it. But if something changes I would buy your truck in a heartbeat...


If you don't have the money for one truck, likely priced below what it is worth, how a you going to build a fleet?

Oh, yeah. The poor innocent taxpayer.



ConnorExum;976003 said:


> Thanks for the offer, but I have one I'm looking into that is much closer... I'll post pictures of it soon. It is older than Dave's but it is a beauty. It has NH220 743cid engine, I plan on putting a turbo on it when I convert it over to biodiesel so I can get a little extra performance out of it. Also I'm thinking of putting the air-cleaner outside the hood so I can squeaze in an air-to-water intercooler and perhaps an aftercooler as well. If I want to get really exotic I'm thinking MW-50 injection system as well. The MW-50 is mostly to increase fuel economy when pushing hard.It will allow more fuel to be burnt. But I think it will be killer.


That sounds super reliable to me.

Connor, There is nothing with proposing a NEW way to handle snow, and discussing that. The reason no one is jumping on board, is because the equipment /methods you are poposing have been done before. 20 or 30 years ago.

And, you are counting on offsite removal as essential to your plan. At a profit, no less.:laughing: Most locations do not need/want offsite removal. Most have more parking than they need.

And, do you think you wanna be Tahoe (your words) ski resorts want your nasty old snow from the Walmart? I'm sure that soda bottles, poopy diapers, trash, and cigarette butts are just what they want. Not to mention the salt.

Next time you run you model, Add strip islands evey 60 feet, and cars filling 1/3 of the parking spaces.


----------



## KBTConst

Is this what they mean by common sence or is this book smart I hear their is a difference.


----------



## KBTConst

2COR517;976089 said:


> If you don't have the money for one truck, likely priced below what it is worth, how a you going to build a fleet?
> 
> Oh, yeah. The poor innocent taxpayer.
> 
> That sounds super reliable to me.
> 
> Connor, There is nothing with proposing a NEW way to handle snow, and discussing that. The reason no one is jumping on board, is because the equipment /methods you are poposing have been done before. 20 or 30 years ago.
> 
> And, you are counting on offsite removal as essential to your plan. At a profit, no less.:laughing: Most locations do not need/want offsite removal. Most have more parking than they need.
> 
> And, do you think you wanna be Tahoe (your words) ski resorts want your nasty old snow from the Walmart? I'm sure that soda bottles, poopy diapers, trash, and cigarette butts are just what they want. Not to mention the salt.
> 
> Next time you run you model, Add strip islands evey 60 feet, and cars filling 1/3 of the parking spaces.


Don't forget the shopping carts. wonder how they would go threw a blower?


----------



## iceyman

KBTConst;976114 said:


> Don't forget the shopping carts. wonder how they would go threw a blower?


like tooth picks get chewed on by some hillbilly


----------



## jomama45

ConnorExum;976003 said:


> I'm sensing that you believe an Oshkosh is too big for me to handle? Well that's okay, I'll show you the pictures of it when I get it.


I could care less IF you can handle a truck like this, but as long as we're on the topic, do you happent to have a CDL? Or is that one more of the many trivial elements of this plan you have to finalize yet?



ConnorExum;976010 said:


> So here is the thing with spill over, yes, all plows spill over.
> 
> Before you made it sound like only pushers spilled over. WTF?
> 
> However, if you can get the majority of the spillage to be in the direction you want the pile to be in anyway you have no problem sure you plow pushes a little extra snow but if you do a pattern of ever tightening squares just so long as they are not too big.
> 
> Oh, so now rather than pushing a simple windrow into the middle, you're going to do a series of squares. Sounds real cute!! Afterall, Oshkosh's really shine in the steering/agility dpt.
> 
> you can get nice neat little piles in the parking lot that can be easily captured by a snowblower of sufficient size in a dump truck and removed from the lot.
> 
> Why should they be nice & neat? Does the snowblower have feelings, a preference? I'm fairly new at this stuff, how many dumptrucks of snow are in say a typical 5 acre lot that gets 6" of snow? In your experiences, have you found it to be 1 or 2?  Obviously you have connections in place already with a site owner whos willing to accept snow for a fee? Or our you still thinking the ski-hills will soon realize the worth of your clients dirty snow that they've been so ignorant to for years?
> 
> I one of the reasons why I talk about flexiblity is that big-lots are only part of my objective, other areas include large private roads, housing complexes, and other areas like that. You see where I live skiing is very popular and people want turn the town into a mini-Tahoe. It is futile but, it is the goal.


I've heard Oshkosh's are right at home in residential work. 



KBTConst;976108 said:


> Is this what they mean by common sence or is this book smart I hear their is a difference.


Definatly "book smart", he's only plowed his dad's driveway with his dad's 1/2 ton truck a handful of times.


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976149 said:


> I could care less IF you can handle a truck like this, but as long as we're on the topic, do you happent to have a CDL? Or is that one more of the many trivial elements of this plan you have to finalize yet?
> 
> I've heard Oshkosh's are right at home in residential work.
> 
> Definatly "book smart", he's only plowed his dad's driveway with his dad's 1/2 ton truck a handful of times.


Yes, I have a CDL class A... I had to because I was moving to CA with my M35 and I CA is the only state that requires a CDL for the truck. So I have one.

You know I was thinking that residential work and Oshkosh's are a like peas and carrots to quote Forrest Gump. I mean who doesn't want to see a 40k truck plowing their driveway. Actually, that is what the bare minimum is going to be in the near future!

I'm a quick learner...


----------



## 2COR517

KBTConst;976114 said:


> Don't forget the shopping carts. wonder how they would go threw a blower?


You have to use hardened shear pins. Get them from Fisher. Same as the XtremeV pin :laughing:


----------



## 2COR517

ConnorExum;976193 said:


> Yes, I have a CDL class A... I had to because I was moving to CA with my M35 and I CA is the only state that requires a CDL for the truck. So I have one.
> 
> You know I was thinking that residential work and Oshkosh's are a like peas and carrots to quote Forrest Gump. I mean who doesn't want to see a 40k truck plowing their driveway. Actually, that is what the bare minimum is going to be in the near future!
> 
> I'm a quick learner...


So an Oshkosh weighs 40K? On one drive axle, and one steer axle?

Why is a 40K Oshkosh going to be the bare minimum for driveways?

BTW, what's the weight on your M35? How many axles? How much fuel did you use be CA and NY?


----------



## JDiepstra

Why use all the equipment when you can just melt the snow with this...






or this....


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;976089 said:


> If you don't have the money for one truck, likely priced below what it is worth, how a you going to build a fleet?
> 
> Oh, yeah. The poor innocent taxpayer.
> 
> That sounds super reliable to me.
> 
> Connor, There is nothing with proposing a NEW way to handle snow, and discussing that. The reason no one is jumping on board, is because the equipment /methods you are poposing have been done before. 20 or 30 years ago.
> 
> And, you are counting on offsite removal as essential to your plan. At a profit, no less.:laughing: Most locations do not need/want offsite removal. Most have more parking than they need.
> 
> And, do you think you wanna be Tahoe (your words) ski resorts want your nasty old snow from the Walmart? I'm sure that soda bottles, poopy diapers, trash, and cigarette butts are just what they want. Not to mention the salt.
> 
> Next time you run you model, Add strip islands evey 60 feet, and cars filling 1/3 of the parking spaces.


I would agree with you that my ideas are old if well basically that snow-pushers have been around since what the 1970's? So everything is pretty old, I think the key to using any equipment is modeling the environment correctly. For example you're talking about strip islands and 1/3 of the parking lots full of cars. Most of the places in this area don't have strip islands, most aren't full with cars one third of the time, and this region dominated by flat rather easily accessible lots.

Perhaps, I haven't explained the region well enough but, the stores all have pretty much flat open area parking lots of 1-3acres. So basically all you have to do is turn the parking lot from one big complex geometric pattern into many smaller ones and you can maximize your effort. so instead of plowing the entire 1-3 acre lot in length or vertical strips where a large truck's turning radius is a limiting factor you just make smaller -squares pushing all the snow into one location of about 50x50 feet and 10 feet tall. I calculated that a 6inch snow storm yielded about 300 tons of snow in that area. And you know with a blower that does 1800 tons per hour you've got 1/6 of an hour to work that was a .75 acre square. So if you have three acres you have what 2.25 piles. The model predicts this can be done in like 2.3hrs. so if I have 4 lots like this I have 9.2hrs of work to do. The thing is the model predict that Oshkosh could do about 4 lots in about 5 hours.

Also by removing all the snow from the lots, I think there should be an advantage if a thaw occurs since large piles of snow won't melt around the perimeter and potentially rolling down onto the surface. Not to mention aesthetically speaking it looks much nicer.

As for the cash, yep Grants will be some of the money... I don't know where I'll get the rest but I'll figure it out.


----------



## jomama45

lmfao!!!!!! What are you using for your "models"? :laughing:


----------



## JDiepstra

jomama45;976229 said:


> lmfao!!!!!! What are you using for your "models"? :laughing:


It's a new type of software but I can't remember the name for sure. It's either Imagination or Hilucination, both are by Mindsosoft.


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976229 said:


> lmfao!!!!!! What are you using for your "models"? :laughing:


Mathematical models...


----------



## toby4492

JDiepstra;976232 said:


> It's a new type of software but I can't remember the name for sure. It's either Imagination or Hilucination, both are by Mindsosoft.


Also comes in handy when flying a UFO


----------



## ConnorExum

toby4492;976242 said:


> Also comes in handy when flying a UFO


It sure does... Those pesky planets sure do come up on you fast.


----------



## 2COR517

JDiepstra;976232 said:


> It's a new type of software but I can't remember the name for sure. It's either Imagination or Hilucination, both are by Mindsosoft.


:laughing:

Don't forget to factor 8 plus years of college and liberal professors...


----------



## jomama45

ConnorExum;976241 said:


> Mathematical models...


Well that's better, I was thinking Matchbox cars.

Where are you getting the proven, real life production rates from? Your calculator doesn't have these, & you've never plowed before.


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;976264 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Don't forget to factor 8 plus years of college and liberal professors...


Actually only 6 years I have 2 more roughly to get my Phd. So eventually I'll have done 8 years and probably a few more in fellowships to other schools. But I don't see why I cannot have some fun right now while I'm taking a bit of a break.

Well how much snow do you think a truck with 20 feet of plow can push? I figured that the volume at 10-15mph was about 12-18 cubic yards. Right so I then broke the large fixed areas into smaller areas about .75 square acres in surface area. Calculated the volume of snow I would push per hour and you know some simple division took into account the rest of the clean up and those were the numbers I got. My OCD makes me want to really really test out my mathematics. I might have over simplified the model but I think given the nature of the flat planes that I'm dealing with it is an excellent first attempt at modeling the efficiency of my plan. I have to get empirical data to tweak it.

Did I mention I really dig science.


----------



## 2COR517

ConnorExum;976284 said:


> Did I mention I really dig science.


Do you believe in evolution?


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976268 said:


> Well that's better, I was thinking Matchbox cars.
> 
> Where are you getting the proven, real life production rates from? Your calculator doesn't have these, & you've never plowed before.


I don't have those yet. You're right for fine tuning absolutely that information is need to see how feasible certain applications are. But basically I modeled the whole thing on the truck moving about 12-18cubic yards of snow per hour at 10-15mph. I developed this model from some research I got from reading about actual performance of the plows. I then calculated the volume of the snow in the .75 square acre block of the location. I then took into account that my truck was in fact always in motion so I figured out how long it would take to go from the outside to the inside of this square. Let the minimum value of the pile be a specific number of cubic yards no less than 40 and the max was like 120 if I remember correctly and these are the numbers I came up with. Of course I didn't account for compressing the snow with it was piled up I don't think that will change the values too much. I also didn't account for fine clean up. Because I was more interested in the roughing in process than anything else.


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;976296 said:


> Do you believe in evolution?


Yes, I believe in evolution.


----------



## jomama45

2COR517;976296 said:


> Do you believe in evolution?


You already should know the answer to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 2COR517

ConnorExum;976298 said:


> But basically I modeled the whole thing on the truck moving about 12-18cubic yards of snow per hour at 10-15mph.


I would say that 12-18 cubic yards per hour is about right.....


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976304 said:


> You already should know the answer to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!


let me guess you're not going to support evolution?


----------



## 2COR517

ConnorExum;976301 said:


> Yes, I believe in evolution.


That's too bad. Sadly, you are in for a big surprise.


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;976308 said:


> I would say that 12-18 cubic yards per hour is about right.....


I cannot wait to test the model out.


----------



## jomama45

So Connor, let's simplify this: How many acres per hour do you figure to make piles with the truck.

Example: When plowing with my Oshkosh, starting from the outside perimeter & continually working in a circle towards the inside, I can plow ___________________ acres per hour into 10' high (never gonna happen BTW) piles.


----------



## 2COR517

Joe - do you have any equipment that could move 12 yards of snow in an hour?


----------



## jomama45

ConnorExum;976309 said:


> let me guess you're not going to support evolution?


I'm only here to BS about snowplowing, there are plenty of other sites I could go for that.....................


----------



## jomama45

2COR517;976319 said:


> Joe - do you have any equipment that could move 12 yards of snow in an hour?


Not yet, but I'm waiting to get the e-mail from Connor as to how to apply for the grants so I can afford to buy something bigger! payup


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;976311 said:


> That's too bad. Sadly, you are in for a big surprise.


You're going with creationism... So are you a strict creationist or just an intelligent design believer?


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976321 said:


> I'm only here to BS about snowplowing, there are plenty of other sites I could go for that.....................


I was just curious.


----------



## SuperdutyShane

The models are Legos arent they?


----------



## 2COR517

I will say that I believe God created man in his image. I will leave it at that, because this will get us shut down for sure.


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976326 said:


> Not yet, but I'm waiting to get the e-mail from Connor as to how to apply for the grants so I can afford to buy something bigger! payup


http://www.snopusher.com/Default.aspx?tabid=4766

They have some with a capacity of 26yards. So I don't think it takes a complete hour to push across say .5 acres. So say it takes an hour to do the whole .5 square acre spot. And lets say you've pushed 26 yards with push and each push took 2 minutes and it took 5 pushed to do the entire thing you moved 65yards in 1 hour. That's how I did the math for the truck.

I made an acre in model too big... I thought it was 240x240ft but it is 208.7 squared. Damn that throws somethings off. I was sure that an acre was about 57600sqft in area it is only 43,559.8641sqft in area... That makes things totally different. I have to recalculate.


----------



## SuperdutyShane

ConnorExum;976350 said:
 

> http://www.snopusher.com/Default.aspx?tabid=4766
> 
> They have some with a capacity of 26yards. So I don't think it takes a complete hour to push across say .5 acres. So say it takes an hour to do the whole .5 square acre spot. And lets say you've pushed 26 yards with push and each push took 2 minutes and it took 5 pushed to do the entire thing you moved 65yards in 1 hour. That's how I did the math for the truck.


You do realize the one that can do 26 yards capacity is a 20 foot pusher, right? Good luck navigating something like that around if the business is open. I guess we will have to put that little factor into this genius plan.


----------



## jomama45

ConnorExum;976350 said:


> http://www.snopusher.com/Default.aspx?tabid=4766
> 
> They have some with a capacity of 26yards. So I don't think it takes a complete hour to push across say .5 acres. So say it takes an hour to do the whole .5 square acre spot. And lets say you've pushed 26 yards with push and each push took 2 minutes and it took 5 pushed to do the entire thing you moved 65yards in 1 hour. That's how I did the math for the truck.


So now you're going to buy a loader with a 20' box? Sounds good, this thread went full circle, you finally see it our way, have a good night, glad to be able to help! :waving:

Connor, you do realize that 20' pusher has nothing to do with the abilities of a 20' plow, DON'T YOU!?!?!?


----------



## 2COR517

Clear six inches off a half acre with a 20 foot box? Might be tight, but I think you can do it.

That math should work.....


----------



## ConnorExum

SuperdutyShane;976364 said:


> You do realize the one that can do 26 yards capacity is a 20 foot pusher, right? Good luck navigating something like that around if the business is open. I guess we will have to put that little factor into this genius plan.


Actually, that was not my point. My point was that moving 12-18 cubic yards with a properly setup plow is not absurd.


----------



## SuperdutyShane

ConnorExum;976368 said:


> Actually, that was not my point. My point was that moving 12-18 cubic yards with a properly setup plow is not absurd.


Well your clearling capacity surely isnt the most absurd part of this plan.


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976365 said:


> So now you're going to buy a loader with a 20' box? Sounds good, this thread went full circle, you finally see it our way, have a good night, glad to be able to help! :waving:
> 
> Connor, you do realize that 20' pusher has nothing to do with the abilities of a 20' plow, DON'T YOU!?!?!?


Yes, the plow actually becomes more efficient as you angle it and increase speed where as the straight pusher loses efficiency over speed since the snow builds up in the front push off to the sides. Yes, I understand the physics very well. The point was given the right pattern you can maximize the efficiency of the plow and use it correctly.

It's been very fun. I'll send you video of how it all works out.


----------



## ConnorExum

SuperdutyShane;976372 said:


> Well your clearling capacity surely isnt the most absurd part of this plan.


What do you think is the most absurd part of the plan? Please say the Unimogs?


----------



## SuperdutyShane

ConnorExum;976383 said:


> What do you think is the most absurd part of the plan? Please say the Unimogs?


Oh I was going to say just basically every part. I recall one post you seem to have said "Im a quick learner" Well, you havent seem to learn that windrowing parking lots with big trucks went out 20+ years ago.


----------



## 2COR517

SuperdutyShane;976390 said:


> Oh I was going to say just basically every part. I recall one post you seem to have said "Im a quick learner" Well, you havent seem to learn that windrowing parking lots with big trucks went out 20+ years ago.


Hey, don't bring wisdom and experience into this!


----------



## jomama45

ConnorExum;976380 said:


> Yes, the plow actually becomes more efficient as you angle it and increase speed
> 
> Yes, I finally agree with you here.
> where as the straight pusher loses efficiency over speed since the snow builds up in the front push off to the sides.
> 
> Nope, not at all, once a box is full, it's full. More speed will only get the snow to the pile faster.
> Yes, I understand the physics very well.
> 
> Maybe, but you're missing a whole lotta key elements to make these assumptions work out in the real world.
> 
> The point was given the right pattern you can maximize the efficiency of the plow and use it correctly.
> 
> One more problem, you're proposing to work in a circle more or less, trying to roll all of the snow to the inside. This is one of the most un-productive ways to use a plow. Where a plow really excells is outside radiuses, not inside.
> 
> It's been very fun. I'll send you video of how it all works out.


More than anything, I want ot watch this video. Just promise ot keep it clean!


----------



## ConnorExum

SuperdutyShane;976390 said:


> Oh I was going to say just basically every part. I recall one post you seem to have said "Im a quick learner" Well, you havent seem to learn that windrowing parking lots with big trucks went out 20+ years ago.


I was reply to something completely different.

Can I ask question how does a pusher-box not also make a windrow? I mean it has little wings that help but they have specific thickness that pushes snow to each side just like anything else that pushes through material.

You see we are having a communication problem. This is sort of what you consider my plan is. It is not.






my plan would be to plow from the exterior edge of the lot in.

or even this see.






see he had to back up where he wasn't pushing any snow at all. That is inefficient, it might be the only feasible way to do the job. However, if he keep pushing the snow inwards towards some point he would be much more efficient.


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;976392 said:


> Hey, don't bring wisdom and experience into this!


This best comment yet.


----------



## SuperdutyShane

ConnorExum;976418 said:


> I was reply to something completely different.
> 
> Can I ask question how does a pusher-box not also make a windrow? I mean it has little wings that help but they have specific thickness that pushes snow to each side just like anything else that pushes through material.
> 
> You see we are having a communication problem. This is sort of what you consider my plan is. It is not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my plan would be to plow from the exterior edge of the lot in.
> 
> or even this see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> see he had to back up where he wasn't pushing any snow at all. That is inefficient, it might be the only feasible way to do the job. However, if he keep pushing the snow inwards towards some point he would be much more efficient.


Not seeing the videos... And everything makes a windrow..


----------



## SuperdutyShane

ConnorExum;976422 said:


> This best comment yet.


Haha, you know for some reason I think he was implying that you DO NOT have much wisdom, nor do you have ANY experience..


----------



## ConnorExum

SuperdutyShane;976424 said:


> Not seeing the videos... And everything makes a windrow..


----------



## ConnorExum

SuperdutyShane;976431 said:


> Haha, you know for some reason I think he was implying that you DO NOT have much wisdom, nor do you have ANY experience..


Yep... Ah why did you have to go and ruin it for me.


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976399 said:


> More than anything, I want ot watch this video. Just promise ot keep it clean!


Why wouldn't it be clean?


----------



## SuperdutyShane

But the guy with the v plow was wasting valuable time backing up when he could have been plowing in varied shapes like square patterns, circular patterns, so on so on.


----------



## jomama45

Connor, I realize that the first video is not what you'r etalking about. That would be far too productive.

Just realize this: That video is notoanly a member here, but even someone who commented on this thread already. If I recall correctly, he's had that lot for 15+ years & has tried many different approaches to it. The problem is that it is very long & all the snow needs ot go to the far end. If you think he's never set a plow (that actually is a combo plow/pusher on the tractor, notice what position it's in) on that lot, you're even more naive than I would have guessed. How long do you think that lot takes him by the way?


----------



## ConnorExum

SuperdutyShane;976446 said:


> But the guy with the v plow was wasting valuable time backing up when he could have been plowing in varied shapes like square patterns, circular patterns, so on so on.


Have you ever heard of Scientific Management or Taylorism as it is often referred to in honor of its developer Frederick Taylor. Frederick Taylor worked for Bethlehem Steel Corp in the 19th century. And started to notice that the shovels that workers used to feed ballast furnaces were very large and no-one really ever took a full shovel load at a time. So he started to calculate the waste in motion and fatigue the large but unused shovel created for the worker. So he found that shovel about half the original shovel size provided an optimum amount coal for the shoveler to use.

So that is what I've essentially developed I went out yesterday and I looked at all the potential large parking lots. I noted their individual topography, their basic flow patterns, and I started to think what would be the most efficient way to use a truck in these lots. And that is where the savings are to be made. If every pass of the snowplow is moving snow towards its final destination we have no wasted movements no unnecessary motions that only slow down progress. And that is where I think I'm onto something.

I have to test it out but I think it will work.


----------



## Lugnut

Connor, if you want the truck get it and since you've got it, you might as well put it to work. But its going to be a novelty/hobby type thing, not the most effective peice of equipment to use. If I had one I'd certainly use it, but if I was spending the money on something for snow removal that wouldn't be it. By the way where in the catskills are you? I went to college at Delhi and the highway depts still use alot of oshkosh trucks to plow the backroads in delaware county


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976466 said:


> Connor, I realize that the first video is not what you'r etalking about. That would be far too productive.
> 
> Just realize this: That video is notoanly a member here, but even someone who commented on this thread already. If I recall correctly, he's had that lot for 15+ years & has tried many different approaches to it. The problem is that it is very long & all the snow needs ot go to the far end. If you think he's never set a plow (that actually is a combo plow/pusher on the tractor, notice what position it's in) on that lot, you're even more naive than I would have guessed. How long do you think that lot takes him by the way?


Listen I'm not saying anything bad about JD Dave. In fact if you my original post you'll see that I clearly state that this might be the most efficient way to do this particular account. However, what I've been trying to people to understand is that wasted motions are really the killer when it comes to efficiency. Some times you cannot get around going in only one direction. However, if it is possible to say push in one direction one way and another the return trip you've have reduced wasted motion that slows down the process. So if you can orientate your vehicle to move in a pattern that allows a truck or tractor to operate in a motion that is always push snow to an intend final destination you have saved time.

The other thing I was trying to point out is that no matter the system used in plowing snow you're going to have windrowing to a greater or lesser degree. Even the 16ft Horst snowplow / pusher that tractor had showed some windrowing. So I'm trying to grasp what is the big deal about windrowing. It plow is just like a saw or anything else that has edge that cuts through material you have material that is pushed way from the edge.

I don't know how I can be naive be about the pusher because it seems be used in the pusher function in this clip. I mean it is 51 seconds of footage I cannot tell how long it takes him to do the job. Couldn't even guess from that clip.

Nothing I said was attempt to say Dave doesn't know what he's doing. I just think that you know sometimes you have to really look at the flow of an area and see what is the best. For the jobs in my area I think I've come up with a really good way to do it.

And well video will be the proof.


----------



## ConnorExum

Lugnut;976509 said:


> Connor, if you want the truck get it and since you've got it, you might as well put it to work. But its going to be a novelty/hobby type thing, not the most effective peice of equipment to use. If I had one I'd certainly use it, but if I was spending the money on something for snow removal that wouldn't be it. By the way where in the catskills are you? I went to college at Delhi and the highway depts still use alot of oshkosh trucks to plow the backroads in delaware county


Every town High Dept in Greene and Delware even Ulster County use the might Oshkosh. I live in Windham. Well novelty suits me.


----------



## JDiepstra

You sure are stubborn, I'll give you that. You keep talking about how you are going to save time using a big old ricketty plow truck. It's going to take you 3 or 4 shifts just to get up to 15 mph. Then you talk about using 3 waves of vehicles to get the job done. Are you kidding me? How is that faster? All you talk about is the Oshkosh. You think you can just spend 5 minutes bringing in a loader and a dump to get rid of the snow you have piled in the middle of the lot? Not to mention that if you are always going in a circle, you can't even use half of your front plow (if its a V) or, any of your outside wing. Youre just talking crazy talk.


----------



## ConnorExum

JDiepstra;976690 said:


> You sure are stubborn, I'll give you that. You keep talking about how you are going to save time using a big old ricketty plow truck. It's going to take you 3 or 4 shifts just to get up to 15 mph. Then you talk about using 3 waves of vehicles to get the job done. Are you kidding me? How is that faster? All you talk about is the Oshkosh. You think you can just spend 5 minutes bringing in a loader and a dump to get rid of the snow you have piled in the middle of the lot? Not to mention that if you are always going in a circle, you can't even use half of your front plow (if its a V) or, any of your outside wing. Youre just talking crazy talk.


That's why I want a truck with only one wing on the right side. I will have to install extra valves for pwr angle but that is the only real modification to the truck I need to do.

Well the division of labor is really what I'm purposing. So if you take a part the needed operations in a cleaning operation what do you have? well you have the major snow removal, the touch up, and the final clean up, right? So what do you do you can say okay I can have a few machines in each area doing work. So lets say you have 3 loaders and 2 skid steers at each location. And that is great but that requires a lot of people and machinery. Well you're not going to move people from point a to point b in big loaders or skid steers if they are very far away. So if you are new to the industry what do you do?

Well my solution is to optimize the speed that I can achieve those goals in various locations using the fewest possible pieces of equipment and people. So if my goal is to compete with someone that can put a loader, truck, and pair of skidsteers in each location I have to come up with a system where I can get one part done in each place move to the next and have one or two other people come behind me and do small stuff and move on. This way the process is always either starting or finishing at the clients place.


----------



## cubanb343

WELL, WELL, WELL.....

I have to apologize to everyone here on plowsite, somehow I've missed this thread the last couple of days. But I want you all to know, it's because I've been too busy reading "oshkosh for dummies" and Superman John Allin's Snow & Ice Book. (Connor I highly recommend the allin book to you) There is so much to say. 

1. Connorexum to California? Good state for ya, maybe you should run for Governor.

2. I think you need to hire a line painter. That way, you can paint grids in Home Depot's lot for all your employees to plow. You could number each grid and have a pre-plow meeting where you could show everyone which grid to plow etc. For some reason I believe you have some graph paper laying around that would come in handy here. Think of it like a "color by number" sorta thing.

3. You said something about spill off. Well I'll have you know that I have two scale model plow trucks, both F350 duallys, with 9' plows on them. They are 1/64 scale trucks. I dusted my coffee table with flour to represent snowfall (I stole the idea from somebody on here, TY). A scale 100' x 100' lot took me about a minute. So just multiply that minute times 64 and VOILA! 64 minutes for that lot with two trucks right? Guess I was going too slow. And there was some spill off but I just picked up the truck and pushed it into the pile real quick so we won't count that-

4. Oh, what else, I don't know - you seem to lack common sense.

5. Outside of your mind is something called the REAL WORLD; it's a magical place where somehow things don't always seem to go as planned.


----------



## quigleysiding

ConnorExum;976713 said:


> That's why I want a truck with only one wing on the right side. I will have to install extra valves for pwr angle but that is the only real modification to the truck I need to do.
> 
> Well the division of labor is really what I'm purposing. So if you take a part the needed operations in a cleaning operation what do you have? well you have the major snow removal, the touch up, and the final clean up, right? So what do you do you can say okay I can have a few machines in each area doing work. So lets say you have 3 loaders and 2 skid steers at each location. And that is great but that requires a lot of people and machinery. Well you're not going to move people from point a to point b in big loaders or skid steers if they are very far away. So if you are new to the industry what do you do?
> 
> Well my solution is to optimize the speed that I can achieve those goals in various locations using the fewest possible pieces of equipment and people. So if my goal is to compete with someone that can put a loader, truck, and pair of skidsteers in each location I have to come up with a system where I can get one part done in each place move to the next and have one or two other people come behind me and do small stuff and move on. This way the process is always either starting or finishing at the clients place.


Connor you seem like a nice kid.You definatly think outside the box.Yes we would all like to play with a Oshkosh,but you say all the lots in your area are 1-3 acres.Nobody is going to use 3 loaders and two skids on a 1-3 acres lots.We do a couple of 1 acre lots.It takes us 45 minutes with one truck.They don"t pay that much that you could move the snow around more than one time.You might be better off to try to put that truck to work for the state or the town in your area.Your truck will be much better for that type of work.Have you ever driven a truck with a wing plow? Not as easy as you think.They use them for highways,I never see them in 1-3 acre parking lots.Parking lots have cars all over the place.Also you are plowing backwards.We plow some park and rides for the state.We start in the middle and circle to the sides of the lot so we only have to move the snow ONE time.Maybe you could start some kind of tours business with your truck.Build some seats in the bed and give the ski people tours like they do with the duck boat trucks in Boston.I'm sure everybody would like to ride in a souped up oshkoshwesport Ps.Are you sure your diet is ok?You might need a big steak or something.


----------



## jomama45

Connor, any chance this guy is some relation? Fairly sure from reading some that he was in the same area your in as well. Maybe you could find him & take him in as a partner?

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=392


----------



## toby4492

ConnorExum;976262 said:


> It sure does... Those pesky planets sure do come up on you fast.


Please post pix of your spacecraft


----------



## cretebaby

jomama45;976868 said:


> Connor, any chance this guy is some relation? Fairly sure from reading some that he was in the same area your in as well. Maybe you could find him & take him in as a partner?
> 
> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=392


I think someone was prompted by another popular _previous _member.


----------



## jomama45

cretebaby;976907 said:


> I think someone was prompted by another popular _previous _member.


You're just upset that I found it first? :laughing:


----------



## 2COR517

Crap, I am way too late.......


----------



## KBTConst

cretebaby;976907 said:


> I think someone was prompted by another popular _previous _member.


Do you guys think that this is the only way he can get people to talk to him? xysport


----------



## SuperdutyShane

2COR517;976929 said:


> Crap, I am way too late.......


No you arent. Connor still has plenty of fight left in him. He's a "quick learner"


----------



## HitchC&L

You might want to rethink you business plan when not a single person from a forum of hundreds of PROFESSIONAL snow plowers agrees with you, many of which have been pushing snow longer than you have been alive.

The trucks that you are proposing CAN move a lot of snow. That is true.

The problem they have is that they CANT stack, and they arent very maneuverable. Both of these things are what makes loaders/pushers so valuable to the snow removal business.

IF you are going to truck snow off site, then a bucket loader loading a dump truck is going to be faster than your idea of a snow blower blowing snow into a truck. A snow blower isnt a sniper rifle, half your snow isnt going to land in the dump body.

Save your mathematical models and theories for the boys in the classroom. Leave the snow to the men in the real world.

ussmileyflag


----------



## 2COR517

HitchC&L;977244 said:


> You might want to rethink you business plan when not a single person from a forum of hundreds of PROFESSIONAL snow plowers agrees with you, many of which have been pushing snow longer than you have been alive.
> 
> The trucks that you are proposing CAN move a lot of snow. That is true.
> 
> The problem they have is that they CANT stack, and they arent very maneuverable. Both of these things are what makes loaders/pushers so valuable to the snow removal business.
> *
> IF you are going to truck snow off site, then a bucket loader loading a dump truck is going to be faster than your idea of a snow blower blowing snow into a truck. A snow blower isnt a sniper rifle, half your snow isnt going to land in the dump body.*
> 
> Save your mathematical models and theories for the boys in the classroom. Leave the snow to the men in the real world.
> 
> ussmileyflag


I agree with you 100%. Except for the comment about the blowers. There's at least one guy who will match his blower up against any 5 yard loader everyday of the week.


----------



## cretebaby

HitchC&L;977244 said:


> IF you are going to truck snow off site, then a bucket loader loading a dump truck is going to be faster than your idea of a snow blower blowing snow into a truck. A snow blower isnt a sniper rifle, half your snow isnt going to land in the dump body.


 ::


----------



## cubanb343

more more more!!!


----------



## ConnorExum

toby4492;976887 said:


> Please post pix of your spacecraft



















Here is my spaceship of choice... the Mig-25PD Foxbat. Very cool and there is one for sale in the Ukraine right now... If only I had the money and the pilot's license.


----------



## SuperdutyShane

ConnorExum;977539 said:


> Here is my spaceship of choice... the Mig-25PD Foxbat. Very cool and there is one for sale in the Ukraine right now... If only I had the money and the pilot's license.


You should work on your snow removal equipment before you buy a spaceship to "Chase Aliens.."


----------



## Bajak

Is this still going? I thought Mikes Big Rig would put an end to this.
I'm just waiting on video. As a dozer operator and plow jockey, I still don't see how you expect to plow everything into the middle, going in concentric circles on a flat surface and expect it to be more efficient, despite your physics defying math skills.

Perhaps if you have a specially built parabolic parking lot, you may be able to plow at 30mph, the way you describe, and teach us all a thing or two. 
Until then, I await proof.


----------



## ConnorExum

Bajak;977570 said:


> Is this still going? I thought Mikes Big Rig would put an end to this.
> I'm just waiting on video. As a dozer operator and plow jockey, I still don't see how you expect to plow everything into the middle, going in concentric circles on a flat surface and expect it to be more efficient, despite your physics defying math skills.
> 
> Perhaps if you have a specially built parabolic parking lot, you may be able to plow at 30mph, the way you describe, and teach us all a thing or two.
> Until then, I await proof.


Circles would be bad. The goal is just to make a pattern where you can maximize your forward motions and minimize all reverse motions. So that the majority of the snow is pushed to one location. When I say central I mean central to overall scheme of the parking lot. That is all I'm talking about it is very simple really and by minimizing all the motions and placing the snow in an easy to access location for the snow-blower trucks they can rapidly remove to either a location further off-site or trucks if need be.

I also await proof.


----------



## ConnorExum

SuperdutyShane;977547 said:


> You should work on your snow removal equipment before you buy a spaceship to "Chase Aliens.."


Considering how the Mig-25 is like 2million dollars I pretty sure it is just a fantasy at this point... But he asked to see my spaceship so I showed him.


----------



## ConnorExum

cubanb343;976858 said:


> WELL, WELL, WELL.....
> 
> I have to apologize to everyone here on plowsite, somehow I've missed this thread the last couple of days. But I want you all to know, it's because I've been too busy reading "oshkosh for dummies" and Superman John Allin's Snow & Ice Book. (Connor I highly recommend the allin book to you) There is so much to say.
> 
> 1. Connorexum to California? Good state for ya, maybe you should run for Governor.
> 
> 2. I think you need to hire a line painter. That way, you can paint grids in Home Depot's lot for all your employees to plow. You could number each grid and have a pre-plow meeting where you could show everyone which grid to plow etc. For some reason I believe you have some graph paper laying around that would come in handy here. Think of it like a "color by number" sorta thing.
> 
> 3. You said something about spill off. Well I'll have you know that I have two scale model plow trucks, both F350 duallys, with 9' plows on them. They are 1/64 scale trucks. I dusted my coffee table with flour to represent snowfall (I stole the idea from somebody on here, TY). A scale 100' x 100' lot took me about a minute. So just multiply that minute times 64 and VOILA! 64 minutes for that lot with two trucks right? Guess I was going too slow. And there was some spill off but I just picked up the truck and pushed it into the pile real quick so we won't count that-
> 
> 4. Oh, what else, I don't know - you seem to lack common sense.
> 
> 5. Outside of your mind is something called the REAL WORLD; it's a magical place where somehow things don't always seem to go as planned.


I'm not sure what "1) Connor Exum to California Good State for ya---Maybe you should Run for Governor" is really supposed to mean. It has some excellent schools and I tend one there... Well until I had to take a break. I've sort of burned out on academic world. But I will return.

2) I don't think line painters would be very helpful if the lines are covered up with snow??? But a GPS grid would be very useful. if you had specific way points and so on like they do with combines in cornfields.

3)I think you model might fail for a couple of reasons: 1) the trucks and surface area are not equal scale representations of the real world example; 2) your ability to maintain 1/64 scale speed of a specific velocity is rather dubious at best;3) the depth of the snow, frictional co-efficient and so on all must be modeled. I used a simple density based model of snow and developed a rough estimate of friction based on this calculation. So i had some idea of how much resistance I was getting thus I could factor that into the working model. But I actually like your idea.

4) You know common sense is often wrong. For example the common sense model of the solar system says we are on the planet at the center of it because of our perspective. The same is true with the surface of the Earth being flat because most of the time objects mask the horizon effect. And if your perspective is only on the ground you would never see a true horizon.

5) The Real World is really rather well modeled. For example I can tell you that an object propelled at x velocity with such and such a drag coefficient in such and such constant winds will always fall in such and such a place. As long as my external variable are within a range that is consistent with my model my model will predicate the correct events.


----------



## 2COR517

You keep plugging away on those models and algorithms Connor. I for one am on the edge of my seat awaiting the results. I just hope you don't put us all out of a job with this system.

I think your Class A CDL will cover you in the Mig, as long as your trailer is more than 10K.


----------



## ConnorExum

HitchC&L;977244 said:


> You might want to rethink you business plan when not a single person from a forum of hundreds of PROFESSIONAL snow plowers agrees with you, many of which have been pushing snow longer than you have been alive.
> 
> The trucks that you are proposing CAN move a lot of snow. That is true.
> 
> The problem they have is that they CANT stack, and they arent very maneuverable. Both of these things are what makes loaders/pushers so valuable to the snow removal business.
> 
> IF you are going to truck snow off site, then a bucket loader loading a dump truck is going to be faster than your idea of a snow blower blowing snow into a truck. A snow blower isnt a sniper rifle, half your snow isnt going to land in the dump body.
> 
> Save your mathematical models and theories for the boys in the classroom. Leave the snow to the men in the real world.
> 
> ussmileyflag


I think you people are just pissed because I said it is possible to do something in a different fashion. I mean most of you people feel that someone who's not a "professional" couldn't possible consider a new method. Especially one based purely on mathematical modeling. But that's cool. It's not really a big deal to me if you think I'm crazy, cool or just plain stupid.

I agree Oshkosh trucks are less than super-agile beasts but, I think strategies can be developed that mitigate some of the agility issues to a minimum .

As for your comments about blowing snow into a truck:











I don't know that truck looks like an Oshkosh H series and it appears to my humble eyes to be blowing snow into the big Kenworth C800 series I'm guessing dump without any spill over. One could say with extreme precision even.


----------



## nickv13412

This tread is making me miss Mark O


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;977726 said:


> You keep plugging away on those models and algorithms Connor. I for one am on the edge of my seat awaiting the results. I just hope you don't put us all out of a job with this system.
> 
> I think your Class A CDL will cover you in the Mig, as long as your trailer is more than 10K.


Well I don't want to drive around with a Mig on a trailer. I sort of want to fly it.

I just think you can develop strategies to maximize any tools you have. If you want to use pushes and skid-steers than I think you can develop methods that increase productivity of those too. If you want to use pickup trucks and hand shovels you maximize that system. There is no right or wrong answer it just a matter of the best strategy for a given set of conditional parameters. It could very well turn out that even at the most optimized level of efficiency I've not accounted for something and I'm dead wrong.

But I'm really curious to find out myself.


----------



## momack

Weather people(PC for californians) predict weather from models If I had to guess, they are wrong 50% of the time(they are kind of tight lipped about their actual performance percentages. I'm guessing pay checks might be smaller if they actually knew).

Common sense is wrong most of the time???? In my short time as an heavy equip operator/Business owner, the numbers provided to me by higher educated (phd included) are usually so far from reality that it cost ME a lot of money because they didn't account for real word variables. Common sense and.......:I can't even finish this. I am dumber for even reading this thread.


----------



## jomama45

nickv13412;977728 said:


> This tread is making me miss Mark O


It's funny you mention that, for a while I actually thought "Connor" was Mark...........


----------



## ConnorExum

jomama45;976868 said:


> Connor, any chance this guy is some relation? Fairly sure from reading some that he was in the same area your in as well. Maybe you could find him & take him in as a partner?
> 
> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=392


No I don't know him... But clearly I like his style. Sure the Kenworth C800 is in my book inferior to the great product line of the Oshkosh Corporation of Oshkosh Wi past and present. However, perhaps under my tutelage I can change his clearly wrong thinking about the use of a Kenworth in the noble profession of the snow removal professional, and get him to understand the infinite beauty and grace of the Oshkosh P-Series trucks. What do you think we could be a duo of Oshkosh Wielding madmen I'll crash and bash the big lots and he can not so gracefully cause many a residential home the need for a general contractor in the warmer months? I think we could really be a killer team!!!


----------



## ConnorExum

momack;977824 said:


> Weather people(PC for californians) predict weather from models If I had to guess, they are wrong 50% of the time(they are kind of tight lipped about their actual performance percentages. I'm guessing pay checks might be smaller if they actually knew).
> 
> Common sense is wrong most of the time???? In my short time as an heavy equip operator/Business owner, the numbers provided to me by higher educated (phd included) are usually so far from reality that it cost ME a lot of money because they didn't account for real word variables. Common sense and.......:I can't even finish this. I am dumber for even reading this thread.


Actually, oddly enough weather on Earth is hard to predict because of the amount of energy and size the planet we have. We have a front almost every 7 days changing where as if you take a look at Jupiter they have a single storm for the last three hundred years continuously. The problem is the number of interactions that can go on in our environment are radically more difficult because of the increased energy we have for our size. So systems develop rapidly and can alter their courses very rapidly given amount of time they develop over.

I don't know what to tell you but the fact is that most common sense or folk theories are just dead wrong.


----------



## 2COR517

Is there anything you don't know everything about?


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;977838 said:


> Is there anything you don't know everything about?


I have a photographic memory. I took a course in Meteorlogy back in freshman year College it was very basic really but the professor was an expert in exo-planetary weather. He was a big deal in JPL actually and did work on the Cassini mission so he would always talk about how modeling other planets helped to refine our own planetary weather models. That's why I happen to know how hard it is to model Earth's weather.


----------



## 2COR517

Did you ever study any of Tesla's work?


----------



## momack

"I don't know what to tell you but the fact is that most common sense or folk theories are just dead wrong. " "Folk Theories" I'll agree with that statement. Common sense is very different than theories. For example, when I joined this site it gave me a random question. "Is winter hot or cold?" It could be hot if i lived in a desert. But comon sense tells me the answer they are looking for is cold. 

What you are not taking into account with your models is any human error, mechanical error or mechanical failure. If your operator doesn't hit the pile or windrow in the exact right place there is going to be spillage. If the snow is wet or dry it will flow diferently. If there is ice under the snow that wing is useless. That Oshkosh is a very bad chose for efficient snow removal. I don't own an Oshkosh, but I do own a Mack with a 2 stick 6 speed trans and comon sense tells me your Oshkosh will perform very similar to my Mack. (IT SUCKS IN SNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)


----------



## momack

Conner , 


Have you ever ran any peice of equipment?


----------



## momack

Sorry I misspelled your name. I don't type well.


----------



## cubanb343

Imagine that. Connorexum picks a mig as his favorite plane. Communist. I just watched your fearless commie leader lie to the entire nation for 70 minutes.


----------



## ConnorExum

momack;977855 said:


> "I don't know what to tell you but the fact is that most common sense or folk theories are just dead wrong. " "Folk Theories" I'll agree with that statement. Common sense is very different than theories. For example, when I joined this site it gave me a random question. "Is winter hot or cold?" It could be hot if i lived in a desert. But comon sense tells me the answer they are looking for is cold.
> 
> What you are not taking into account with your models is any human error, mechanical error or mechanical failure. If your operator doesn't hit the pile or windrow in the exact right place there is going to be spillage. If the snow is wet or dry it will flow diferently. If there is ice under the snow that wing is useless. That Oshkosh is a very bad chose for efficient snow removal. I don't own an Oshkosh, but I do own a Mack with a 2 stick 6 speed trans and comon sense tells me your Oshkosh will perform very similar to my Mack. (IT SUCKS IN SNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)


I'm going to leave the common sense thing alone because we can get into some very complicated issues over epistemology (the study of knowledge) and it gets really hard. But basically common sense is inductive method of reasoning based on coherence their of knowledge. Okay so basically you say I see that winter is cold and if winter is cold then anything that doesn't cohere to this notion of being cold is not winter. So yes spring is colder than summer but it isn't cold? Now of course it helps to have very specific descriptions. The problem is that if our description of the event is not exactly accurate or we draw casual relationships between things that don't exist we get common sense theories or as Philosophers are fond of calling them folk theories about the world that are just not right. The point is that often what we call common sense is fatally flawed. And sometimes what it really is just a pattern of specific inputs for example you and I might say that walking on ice might cause you to fall. Right because ice is slippery, we see some one fall in the parking lot and say oh it must be icy I'll be careful. When they coudl have just as easily tripped in a hole in the parking lot surface. That is a classic issue with beliefs in the philosophy of mind. Confirming our beliefs is an incredibly hard thing to do. yet everyday we act as if these things exist and they might not exist.

So let's get back to the Mack truck. I'm assuming the Mack is not AWD or 4x4 or even 6x6 in nature? Is your Mack also a tandem axle dump and do the duals in the back get too much snow in between them to be effective at times? My daily driver is a 6x6 old Military M35A2 and without chains and 2tons in the rear the tandems with the NDT tires from the Military are worthless in heavy snow. I'm also amusing that you're attributing some of the difficulties of driving the Mack to the 2 stick 6speed gearbox. I've heard they can be tricky, and the five+four is not easy either but I think once one gets used to it, it can be easily mastered. However, all pluses in the case of the Oshkosh is that is AWD it does have excellent snow characteristics. As for the wing and ice, I'm not so clear why that is a major problem. For example you might use a F350 on a 2acre parking lot and that wouldn't have wing, but it could have a sander to deal with ice. I can put a giant sander on the Oshkosh.


----------



## ConnorExum

cubanb343;977861 said:


> Imagine that. Connorexum picks a mig as his favorite plane. Communist. I just watched your fearless commie leader lie to the entire nation for 70 minutes.


Dude the Mig-25 is just awesome. You take the Mig-25 and compare it to SR-71 (A-12 and YF-12 variants) and it is just a total antithesis of the western design philosophy. The SR-71 is amazing but when you consider the fact that SR-71 has 80% of its airframe constructed from titanium and you compare to this 5% percent of the Mig-25 you have to marvel. Because the Russians figured out how to maximize their limited ability to work with titanium and other exotic alloys, they used nickel-steel in most of the airframe and even aluminum which Western Aerospace experts said wouldn't work at Mach 2.83 or greater. They figured out where greatest amount of thermodynamic heating existed during its flight envelop and created an airframe that was able to work with their technology base. Also the Whirlwind Radar system was vacuum tube based and that ironically made it less effected by nuclear EMP ballast when compared to early solid state transistors of the late 1960's early 1970's. Also the plane holds records for altitudes with 2 metric ton loads and 4 metric ton loads. It also holds the absolute air-breathing world altitude record of 123,000+ feet. It can do mach 2.83 with a full weapons load at 67,500ft, it can fly to 72,000 ft with 2 missiles on it. It can drop bombs from 60,000ft in the bomber role and in the recon role it has a ceiling of 80,000ft. Plus you can purchase it as a civilian. While it does do mach 3.2 you will blow up the Tumansky RD-15-300 engines if you do it. So you better stay around 2.5-.2.83 for the engines safety.

That is why I love this plane so much. Plus it is like a 70,000lb flying brick that climbs at 40,000ft per second. You can get up to 65,000 feet in about 9min. That must be an awesome ride.

Here look


----------



## ConnorExum

momack;977858 said:


> Sorry I misspelled your name. I don't type well.


Who cares... It is no big deal.


----------



## ConnorExum

2COR517;977854 said:


> Did you ever study any of Tesla's work?


I've read about Telsa but I've not done any really in depth study of his works.


----------



## ConnorExum

I should probably sub-contract myself out to other firms... That way I don't disrupt any other business I just do whatever they think they can use a really big Oshkosh for.


----------



## cubanb343

I love planes. I almost joined the USAF after high school. I wanted to fly F-16s. But oh well, now I run cranes and other equipment and plow snow. Works for me


----------



## ConnorExum

Okay CubanB343... I was just telling why I like the Mig-25Foxbat so much... Okay I get it don't let the Russophile's evil thoughts corrupt you... That's cool... Well it was nice talking to you to again.


----------



## cubanb343

Ya I don't wanna be a *****. Just seems you love to debate anything and everything


----------



## ConnorExum

cubanb343;977906 said:


> Ya I don't wanna be a *****. Just seems you love to debate anything and everything


I'm not really debating everything. We just differ in opinion and that is cool. I bet we can agree on one thing it would be cool to get a chance to fly in a F-22 Raptor Trainer model. I don't think they have produced any but they will it is standard practice. I would like that ride for sure.


----------



## SuperdutyShane

cubanb343;977906 said:


> Ya I don't wanna be a *****. Just seems you love to debate anything and everything


Well when you're a genius in all subjects you have to keep people in their place... And sometimes, debating is the only way to do that!

Connor, I know your response to this will be "I do not claim to know everything." And... You might as well admit it, you think you do


----------



## ConnorExum

SuperdutyShane;977948 said:


> Well when you're a genius in all subjects you have to keep people in their place... And sometimes, debating is the only way to do that!
> 
> Connor, I know your response to this will be "I do not claim to know everything." And... You might as well admit it, you think you do


Why is debating a bad thing? I'm not really debating I'm using a modification of the Socratic method. I posit a question, we get a reply posit another question, and so and so forth. We continue this way in a dialectic fashion until we can tease out a truth of some type.


----------



## Grn Mtn

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=97376


----------



## hedhunter9

Troll even if he is an engineer is still a troll.

You guys are being played by a book smart troll

We all know that book smarts are the best...
Common sense can NEVER overcome BOOKSMARTS.

This booksmart troll is getting his numbers up there pretty good by you guys.


----------



## ConnorExum

hedhunter9;978145 said:


> Troll even if he is an engineer is still a troll.
> 
> You guys are being played by a book smart troll
> 
> We all know that book smarts are the best...
> Common sense can NEVER overcome BOOKSMARTS.
> 
> This booksmart troll is getting his numbers up there pretty good by you guys.


I'm not an engineer actually, I'm a philosopher of mind, but I do a lot of work in rational decision making theory which requires game theory and mathematics. Plus my actual focus is in an area called symbolic systems: so I do a lot with the creation of non-organic symbolic systems users i.e Artificial Intelligence.

So I'm sorry you think I'm a troll, but I'm not.

I think people mistook my zeal for theory as being pretentious and self-inflated. When I fact I was just playing to the strong suits I have. I didn't want to make it sound like I thought people with experience were wrong. That was not my intention at all. I was merely trying to find out the most possible information I could about this topic.

I'm sorry if anyone mistook my intentions and thought I was trying to show them up. I wasn't.


----------



## KBTConst

Connor, maybe you could just buy the mig with your grants, then use the jet for melting the snow and drying the parking lot. then you could fly it around to your other big lots and do the same. then there is only one piece of equipment and one worker but that would eliminate your Oshkosh! just a thought :laughing:


----------



## PhilFromErie

I almost feel embarrassed that i took the time to read the whole 9 pages of this post, but i did so I guess ill comment. 

Here is what i know for what its worth. Some of my equipment plows snow at a large shopping center and we use pushers from 12 - 20 feet we dont fly through it but its a large area and it gets done in a reasonable amount of time. from what i have heard they used to do it with all trucks, this is before my time so i didnt see it happen so im just saying what i was told. it took like 20 trucks or so, they had big windrows they couldn't push everywhere, they had to move snow every night with loaders, took forever, basically a nightmare
Now it gets gone with like 2 loaders, 2 or 3 backhoes and 2 or 3 trucks and its done cheaper and faster.

Its kind or like saying "im going to build a steam engine for a train, yea i know they have diesel ones but the steam one is better"

Good luck on that though.


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## 2COR517

But the steam engine will work, we just need to move the tracks.....


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## jomama45

hedhunter9;978145 said:


> Troll even if he is an engineer is still a troll.
> 
> *You guys are being played by a book smart troll*
> 
> We all know that book smarts are the best...
> Common sense can NEVER overcome BOOKSMARTS.
> 
> *This booksmart troll is getting his numbers up there pretty good by you guys*.


Just to clarify a few things:

I personally called Connor a troll in another thread 2-3 weeks ago.

I can guarantee you that quite a few here are only adding content to this just to feed him for their own entertainment, as well as anyone else's who happens to stumble across it.

We've knowingly left a ton of math & logistical errors on Connors behalf run rampant for entertainment purposes.

There's plenty of us here that have first hand experience at what it takes to get a thread closed, this one may have been too much fun to get it closes so easily.


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## 2COR517

jomama45;980617 said:


> Just to clarify a few things:
> 
> I personally called Connor a troll in another thread 2-3 weeks ago.
> 
> I can guarantee you that quite a few here are only adding content to this just to feed him for their own entertainment, as well as anyone else's who happens to stumble across it.
> *
> We've knowingly left a ton of math & logistical errors on Connors behalf run rampant for entertainment purposes.*
> 
> There's plenty of us here that have first hand experience at what it takes to get a thread closed, this one may have been too much fun to get it closes so easily.


Who, me? :laughing:

You don't think it's reasonable to clear 6 inches of fluffy snow off a half acre in an hour with a 20 foot pusher?


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## Bajak

2COR517;980623 said:


> Who, me? :laughing:
> Sure. why not? Someones got to do it. Where be that Mark character??
> You don't think it's reasonable to clear 6 inches of fluffy snow off a half acre in an hour with a 20 foot pusher?
> 
> I would have to see it to believe it.


..............:laughing:


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## ConnorExum

jomama45;980617 said:


> Just to clarify a few things:
> 
> I personally called Connor a troll in another thread 2-3 weeks ago.
> 
> I can guarantee you that quite a few here are only adding content to this just to feed him for their own entertainment, as well as anyone else's who happens to stumble across it.
> 
> We've knowingly left a ton of math & logistical errors on Connors behalf run rampant for entertainment purposes.
> 
> There's plenty of us here that have first hand experience at what it takes to get a thread closed, this one may have been too much fun to get it closes so easily.


I have question do you have a degree in advance mathematics?


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## quigleysiding

opcorn..................


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## ConnorExum

PhilFromErie;980558 said:


> I almost feel embarrassed that i took the time to read the whole 9 pages of this post, but i did so I guess ill comment.
> 
> Here is what i know for what its worth. Some of my equipment plows snow at a large shopping center and we use pushers from 12 - 20 feet we dont fly through it but its a large area and it gets done in a reasonable amount of time. from what i have heard they used to do it with all trucks, this is before my time so i didnt see it happen so im just saying what i was told. it took like 20 trucks or so, they had big windrows they couldn't push everywhere, they had to move snow every night with loaders, took forever, basically a nightmare
> Now it gets gone with like 2 loaders, 2 or 3 backhoes and 2 or 3 trucks and its done cheaper and faster.
> 
> Its kind or like saying "im going to build a steam engine for a train, yea i know they have diesel ones but the steam one is better"
> 
> Good luck on that though.


I wouldn't knock steam it is still essential power source... technology has advanced the generation of the steam but, the principles are still the same. Take for example any SSN in the United States Navy it is basically a steam ship with super advanced boiler.


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## PhilFromErie

OK the whole thing I wrote flew over your head like that Communist plane you want to get.


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## ConnorExum

PhilFromErie;980681 said:


> OK the whole thing I wrote flew over your head like that Communist plane you want to get.


I wasn't finished how did that posted... I still have it open... maybe I have too many windows and posted before I was finished. No, I understand point about re-inventing something.


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## jomama45

2COR517;980623 said:


> Who, me? :laughing:
> 
> You don't think it's reasonable to clear 6 inches of fluffy snow off a half acre in an hour with a 20 foot pusher?


NOT YOU, I actually figures you were running the calculator for him!!! :laughing::laughing:



ConnorExum;980669 said:


> I have question do you have a degree in advance mathematics?


Negative, but I DO own a calculator?


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## cubanb343

This thing is still going?? Really?


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## 2COR517

jomama45;980684 said:


> NOT YOU, I actually figures you were running the calculator for him!!! :laughing::laughing:
> 
> 
> Scott is the calculator man....
> 
> Negative, but I DO own a calculator?


Couple that with a night at a Holiday Inn Express and you are in business......


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## 2COR517

ConnorExum;980669 said:


> I have question do you have a degree in advance mathematics?


I'm guessing you do, Connor?


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## Charles

Putting thread out of it's misery


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