# Side walk rig



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

There's a thread called 36" side walk removal options. There's been plenty of good/valid post in it which is to be expected. The thread revolves around what's currently available and the positive's along with the negatives. So what would the ultimate side walk rig have and it's capability's (salt, liquid, other)? 

Go..............


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

One that doesn't require counting on an employee to show at 2am, like a roomba for snow:laugh:


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

In all seriousness, something with an expandable blade would be pretty handy on different size walks. Fairly quick ground speed for getting back to the truck if you're on the opposite end of the lot. Different attachments for different conditions.

Most of these already exist I guess, but I'm pretty interested in reading this one.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

That's a start.... My thought in the is if you could do a ground up build what would the things expected the rig would be capable of doing. Liquid, granulated, plow/blower/sweeper options, hydro/mechcanical driven stand up/sit down, cab/not cab, wheel/track driven, skid or steer turning, etc....
There's been several attempts by mfr's to build but as we've seen in the other thread they fall short in some way or another.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Is there a budget limit?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> In all seriousness, something with an expandable blade would be pretty handy on different size walks. Fairly quick ground speed for getting back to the truck if you're on the opposite end of the lot. Different attachments for different conditions.
> 
> Most of these already exist I guess, but I'm pretty interested in reading this one.


Ditto, Maybe 36'' to 60'',


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

One you could run remotely from inside a warm vehicle lol.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

If you could come up with a way to make it capable of handling steps that would be great...

Come to think of it...there is. A whole posse of Guadalupe's paid in fresh tacos...:laugh::laugh:


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Jeep CJ 5.....Company used to do Miles and Miles of city sidewalks in the area I grew up...they had a Fleet of CJ5s with Rotary brooms mounted on them....Thats how I would wanna do it....Heat...The 8 Track playing Led Zepplin and a Cooler of beer beside me driving down the sidewalks yelling at people to get the Hell out of my way


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Jeep CJ 5.....Company used to do Miles and Miles of city sidewalks in the area I grew up...they had a Fleet of CJ5s with Rotary brooms mounted on them....Thats how I would wanna do it....Heat...The 8 Track playing Led Zepplin and a Cooler of beer beside me driving down the sidewalks yelling at people to get the Hell out of my way


On a long night and half of the cooler gone, you would be in trouble after your first whizz lol.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

FredG said:


> On a long night and half of the cooler gone, you would be in trouble after your first whizz lol.


Fred you know as well as I do.....Getting old sucks....Once you break the seal...It's peeing every 5 minutes.....I would cut a trap door in the floor...Open the trap door and yell Bombs away....


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Fred you know as well as I do.....Getting old sucks....Once you break the seal...It's peeing every 5 minutes.....I would cut a trap door in the floor...Open the trap door and yell Bombs away....


Fosho,


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Is there a budget limit?


Given the cost of some of the currently available units and with goal of exceeding their ability's I'm thinking build cost for the unit minus attachments would be around $7-8k. Since most walks are 48" plus in width that would be the target.


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## fhafer (Jan 31, 2014)

I use an old Gravel LS for this...too bad they're not made anymore. Pretty versatile two-wheeled tractor.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Defcon 5 said:


> Fred you know as well as I do.....Getting old sucks....Once you break the seal...It's peeing every 5 minutes.....I would cut a trap door in the floor...Open the trap door and yell Bombs away....


I pulled the floor plugs on my CJ and had cut the bottom oof a Gatorade bottle, had a hose on the udder end and ran the hose though the floor plug hole. Only used that for road trips so I only have to stop for fuel.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

fhafer said:


> I use an old Gravel LS for this...too bad they're not made anymore. Pretty versatile two-wheeled tractor.


I have one my dad bought new in '69 and I still use it on occasion.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

OK no budget ultimate machine.

A 2305/1025R size machine with all wheel steer. No skid steer. And adjustable suspension like the rock crawlers so that on narrow walks you could have one set of tires on the pavement, one set on the walk, and be level.

It would sit a few inches higher than those machines so it could take bigger attachments on the 3 pt.

Power beyond kit to the rear. Pre plumbed with a second hydro valve to the front so you could run hydraulic attachments with a joystick controll instead of the loader stick. Or combine both valves into a joystick.

Instead of 24 horse, 35 horse turbo charged diesel on the smaller frame. 

Upgraded Alternator and pre-wired for easy accessories like the HD trucks.

Cab with heater, defrost and A/C.

Ground speed of 25mph with load controll.

It would come with a broom, snow bucket, and expanding V plow. With quick tach like connectors.

Power inverter plug

rear and side cameras.

It would have some type of system where there were legs that came down so when you slide off the walk, into the mud and high center, you can lift yourself up over the nose of the walk. 

Air ride or some type of suspension seat.

I’m sure i can think of more.....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Wow...... I was thinking something more along the lines of the size of a Snowrator or the new Ventrac.
Ditch Witch has a pretty cool small articulating machine.https://www.ditchwitch.com/mini-ski...#views_slideshow_cycle_main_attachments-block


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

That ditchwitch machine is cool, and so are the other ones. But we get more snow than that. Not practical for how we do walks here. Or maybe the way we do walks isnt practical lol. 

Just thought of another one. High lift so you can load a 10 wheel dump with it.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Was thinking, blower, blade and sweeper options, blower and sweeper would be PTO or Hyd driven. Also a wet system and or a drop spreader would be handy too.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> OK no budget ultimate machine.
> 
> A 2305/1025R size machine with all wheel steer. No skid steer. And adjustable suspension like the rock crawlers so that on narrow walks you could have one set of tires on the pavement, one set on the walk, and be level.
> 
> ...


Pretty good list. If I could get 4ws and 15 mph on our 1025 I'd be more than satisfied with it. I would gladly give up the 4ws for more ground speed though.

Ventrac SSV looks to be perfect for smaller walks. Ask me once it snows.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> Was thinking, blower, blade and sweeper options, blower and sweeper would be PTO or Hyd driven. Also a wet system and or a drop spreader would be handy too.


Yes blower would be nice, and you could run a drop spreader off the power beyond hydros in the rear.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Pretty good list. If I could get 4ws and 15 mph on our 1025 I'd be more than satisfied with it. I would gladly give up the 4ws for more ground speed though.
> 
> Ventrac SSV looks to be perfect for smaller walks. Ask me once it snows.


I'm just done with open cab. Other than that it looks awesome. But, i need to hav the ability roll snow, relocate it, or load it. We're talking the ultimate machine, which for me means one and done. As it is now, the SSV with a cab would meet a lot of my needs but would have to bring the 2305 as well of we neede the above abilities. Which 90% of time I do on my accounts.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> Was thinking, blower, blade and sweeper options, blower and sweeper would be PTO or Hyd driven. Also a wet system and or a drop spreader would be handy too.


I do not know if PTO or hydro would be better. I know you loose a significant amount of HP by the time you get to the PTO. Not sure if you have a similar loss with hydraulic attachments.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

More pwr is used for hydros


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> OK no budget ultimate machine.
> 
> A 2305/1025R size machine with all wheel steer. No skid steer. And adjustable suspension like the rock crawlers so that on narrow walks you could have one set of tires on the pavement, one set on the walk, and be level.
> 
> ...


I think I'd have to sell my house to pay for that...


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> More pwr is used for hydros


Copy that


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> I think I'd have to sell my house to pay for that...


Well i did say no budget lol


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I've never done sidewalks, and the closest I come is trying to get the snow a few feet away from the side of the hangars to allow the box to go by and not hit the building. However, I've been reading the sidewalk threads for the part few years, so here's my strawman. The problem is that it would likely be a $50-$60K machine when all was said and done.

The idea is to do drives from 36" to 60" and minimize salt usage. From some of the pricing threads, I'm not sure if saving salt would save or cost you profit, since it appears to be separately bid.

At any rate...

Up front either a plow with hydraulic wings or blower with wings, depending on how heavy the snow to be cleared off the walk is. 36" in the middle (either blower or plow), with 18" to 24" wings. Wings can rotate through 180 degrees. Plow could articulate 30 degrees. 

In the middle, two brooms, arranged like a v-plow, so they can go from 36" to 60". Center gets double swept. Deals with uneven sidewalks.

In the back, a drop spreader or spray boom, either a double drop or double boom, so it can change width like the brooms. 

The chassis would be articulating (30" wide similar to a ventrac 3400 or Karcher MIC 26) 4 wheel steer (small version of a front mower), or a 3-wheeler, like my old Hyster QN-20 forklift. At any rate, something that can turn sharply. 

Hydrostatic drive with wheel motors. 

Cab with Heat and Air.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I'm not sure how I would keep to an 8K build cost (recognizing it is for the chassis only) and get the ultimate machine. Something that is no more expensive than a Ventrac SSV but does more?


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Whats wrong with a mini skid, enclosed heated cab, adjustable blower, and a two way radio. 

Make it strong enough to have the power to clean slop. 

Put a smart operator in it and you have it made.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

On a Call said:


> Whats wrong with a mini skid, enclosed heated cab, adjustable blower, and a two way radio.
> 
> Make it strong enough to have the power to clean slop.
> 
> Put a smart operator in it and you have it made.


They are cramped, make you pee blood, slow, no suspension...... basically the skid steers and especially the mini ones basically meet none of my criteria for the ultimate machine. And the blowers are not the end all be all. I'm not sure how efficient they are once the snow is a foot or two taller than the blower.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ktfbgb said:


> They are cramped, make you pee blood, slow, no suspension...... basically the skid steers and especially the mini ones basically meet none of my criteria for the ultimate machine. And the blowers are not the end all be all. I'm not sure how efficient they are once the snow is a foot or two taller than the blower.


Only thing that ever made me pee blood was a kidney stone lol.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I like blowers, but they are slow. If you don’t need it due to depth, a plow will be faster.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Two questions to help with concepts....

How often do the sidewalk banks get too high to effectively plow?

If you are blowing, how do you deal with uneven slabs? I know on my driveway, there is one spot with about a 3/8 lip. If I hit it, I stop RIGHT NOW as I don’t use the skid shoes, so I blow that section in the opposite direction, or crawl toward it in the other. Looking at sidewalks as I drive around, it seems they are generally worse than my driveway.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

ktfbgb said:


> They are cramped, make you pee blood, slow, no suspension...... basically the skid steers and especially the mini ones basically meet none of my criteria for the ultimate machine. And the blowers are not the end all be all. I'm not sure how efficient they are once the snow is a foot or two taller than the blower.


I actually speak from experience.

I have a 642B bobcat. It however does not have high flow but it does have live hydro and the ability to move snow. I only have a bucket for it and during some heavy snows we had years ago it saved my butt on cleaning and opening sidewalks.

If this thing had heat and windows...it would be great.

As far as being cramped...I am a big guy, no I am a fat guy, 5'10 235. However I am comfortable...but my operator who is 5'8" and 185 loves it.

FYI...try it


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

SSV is 11200 alone. 

Just curious, why the desire for a/c in a sidewalk machine? If my 1025 had better ducting for the heat it would be great. As it is you can still do sidewalks in a t shirt and be warm.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Some cost information. 

I got an idea what I was working on my brothers 1983 Bolens G274 that he put a new loader on with a skid steer plate. Since skid steer attachments are easy to find for rent, whereas you generally have to buy PTO ones, I thought it would be nice to be able to run skid steer stuff without renting a skid steer. 

I designed a box to go on the 3-point to generate the hydraulic power of a low-flow skidsteer (17 GPM at 2000 PSI, or 12 at 3000), as the Bolens is limited to about 5 GPM. That way he could hang any low flow skid steer implement off the front (broom, stump grinder, etc.) 

I had a motor. By the time I got a hydraulic pump, valve body with two electro proportional valves, tank, cooler with thermostatic bypass, return line filter, etc. I was 3K into it in other parts. 

It's a gas engine, so add $1600 for it. If it were a diesel, $5K or so for a similar horsepower Hatz. 

These are retail engine prices, so you might get a break in quantity.

I think by the time you build a chassis, and then add a hydrostatic transmission if shaft drive or wheel motors if hydraulic, chassis, and a heated cab, you will be well over $10K just in parts without attachments.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Two questions to help with concepts....
> 
> How often do the sidewalk banks get too high to effectively plow?
> 
> If you are blowing, how do you deal with uneven slabs? I know on my driveway, there is one spot with about a 3/8 lip. If I hit it, I stop RIGHT NOW as I don't use the skid shoes, so I blow that section in the opposite direction, or crawl toward it in the other. Looking at sidewalks as I drive around, it seems they are generally worse than my driveway.


Normally I look for trees - bushes near the sidewalk and the driveways. I turn the auger off and push though these problem areas and continue to blow snow. These are the area's that will cause you issues, due to the roots and the weight of heavy vehicles lifting or mucking the sidewalk.

This does not mean you could not have issues in other spots, It just reduces uneven sidewalk issues. Mine don't stop to easy, it will take out a shear pin first. Or maybe I go to fast lol


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

John_DeereGreen said:


> SSV is 11200 alone.
> 
> Just curious, why the desire for a/c in a sidewalk machine? If my 1025 had better ducting for the heat it would be great. As it is you can still do sidewalks in a t shirt and be warm.


Under the assumption that you were asking me why I put it in the overall concept....

I don't have a desire for a/c, as I don't do sidewalks.

I put it in there as part of an ultimate machine basically so you can amortize the cost of the machine in the summer. I see a lot of threads about how machines that would work well in the winter (toolcat) aren't worth buying if they have to sit all summer.

A/C will also help defrosting the inside of the cab in winter.

Probably makes about a $1K difference in build cost.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

On a Call said:


> I actually speak from experience.
> 
> I have a 642B bobcat. It however does not have high flow but it does have live hydro and the ability to move snow. I only have a bucket for it and during some heavy snows we had years ago it saved my butt on cleaning and opening sidewalks.
> 
> ...


You said mini skid. Which to me means a S70 size machine. And trust me that size machine is not a ideal machine. I too speak from experience. I'm 5'11" 220 lbs, and I can barely squeeze into that machine. The sidewalk machine needs to be no more than 48" wide so that you can be on a 4 foot wide sidewalk and remain level. The majority of our walks are 4' wide.

The big skid steers certainly move a lot of snow, but in my opinion they will never be the Ultimate Sidewalk only machine. As said above on a 4 foot walk a 52" wide machine can not have all the wheels on the walk and so we have to approach the sidewalk from the street and roll snow back off the walk one bucket width at a time. With my 2305 you fit up on the sidewalk and just go. And as Aero said with the options i listed for the ultimate machine, $50 - $60 K, it would be a little more than a new large skid steer, but would do the job much more effectively.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Wow..... Great ideas guys.....
Not to suppress the ultimate rig dialog but the idea is something less extravagant. Something that gives options in regards to attachments, small and maneuverable and won't break the bank. Summer use like for aerating, dethatching or spraying capabilities would huge plus.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> Wow..... Great ideas guys.....
> Not to suppress the ultimate rig dialog but the idea is something less extravagant. Something that gives options in regards to attachments, small and maneuverable and won't break the bank. Summer use like for aerating, dethatching or spraying capabilities would huge plus.


Oh ok, got it.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

For low cost, I think you are going to be limited to PTO type attachments and a gas engine of about 20 hp or so. Hydraulic pump systems to drive the implements will be too expensive, and you will lose too much of your limited horsepower. 

Peerless or equivalent hydrostatic transmission, either from a lawn tractor if you like shaft drive or from a zero turn. 

Make a front mower type of chassis, so you have forklift type steering. Cat 0 or 1 3 point to put main attachment on (broom, blower, plow, etc.) 

Beef up the alternator, or put a second one driven from the PTO shaft to provide electric power for a rear sander/salter.

I envision something like my QN-20 without a mast, and with a zero turn drive instead of a steering wheel. Even with a conventional transmission, mine will do a 180 within a 5 foot wide space with a little practice if you ignore the forks.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Buff, are you just trying to get a design to take to Boss:laugh:


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

The a/c wasn't directed at anyone specifically just a question. While I agree it helps to clear moisture out I don't think I'd go for it on a snow only machine. 

Rework the SSV chassis. Mount the engine as low as possible in the same location front-back. Make it similar to a Bobcat A300/770 where it can be all wheel steer or skid steer turning. Pull the entire operator console off and mount a cab. A drop spreader (or spray tank) would be mounted where the operator foot platform is now. You'd have to run the machine with either pilot or e/h controls. Heat would be via the hydraulic system. Make attachments for 36" and 60" walks. This would be more for someone that has more narrow walks to do. 

Larger walks? 1025 with 4 wheel steering and 15+ mph ground speed.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

The ultimate sidewalk Machine is a Shovel with copious amounts of Jagoof Lights mounted on it...Very little to go wrong with it other than a Jagoof Light failure....Which seldom happens


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Defcon 5 said:


> The ultimate sidewalk Machine is a Shovel with copious amounts of Jagoof Lights mounted on it...Very little to go wrong with it other than a Jagoof Light failure....Which seldom happens


Are the jagoff lights powered by AA batteries? Maybe rig it up to connect to a backpack that the shoveler could wear. We'll figure something out.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Well once again I might be bias but other then being in the elements my bladed Zsprays are bar none the fastest clearing/salting machine all in one shot. Also useable all season. Spray capable. By biggest love is the compact maneuverability. That single walk that comes off a main walk, ride straight up to door back drag away 180 and push it all away toward main walk....I have a lot of tight turn walks next to curbs, always fell off with quad etc... There is just something about being smaller and compact... And being able to salt, its like a sore #$%^ you can't beat it....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

JMHConstruction said:


> Buff, are you just trying to get a design to take to Boss:laugh:


No, this is an area in the industry that has room for improvement in regards to equipment IMO. There's multi use rigs like a Grandstand that's geared more towards summer work along with small tractors. Then you get into Snowrators or the Ventrac SSV which have their place but seem to be limited when it comes to capability, but are at a reasonable price point. The you have a huge gap to high end multi use machines that only the largest contractors or municipality's can justify/afford.
I have the resources to build a machine and since I'm done plowing and mowing for hire I have some spare time. So just looking for some feedback, constructive and not so constructive (why I posted in Oof Topic).
Also been looking at other equipment to build as well.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

BUFF said:


> and since I'm done plowing and mowing for hire I have some spare time.


Maybe I missed something on here, but why aren't you plowing this year?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

JMHConstruction said:


> Maybe I missed something on here, but why aren't you plowing this year?


He got smart.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> He got smart.


He is Busy


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JMHConstruction said:


> Maybe I missed something on here, but why aren't you plowing this year?


He's playing with old wood....


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> He's playing with old wood....


Ah yes, the old wood adventures of Buff. Forgot about that Thumbs Up


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

let's keep it on topic please 

thanks


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> let's keep it on topic please
> 
> thanks


Isn't it amazing that as soon as Oomkes enters the discussion things start to go horribly wrong....Just an observation...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Defcon 5 said:


> Isn't it amazing that as soon as Oomkes enters the discussion things start to go horribly wrong....Just an observation...


MJD gets a text every time Mark posts.

I'd have to agree with your previous statement.
I think a shovel is one of the best options.
-They're simple
- They can be used by anyone 
-they don't require fuel
-they're portable 
- and they can do steps


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

BossPlow2010 said:


> MJD gets a text every time Mark posts.
> 
> I'd have to agree with your previous statement.
> I think a shovel is one of the best options.
> ...


Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to get 1 person to show up to run a machine with a heated cab than it is to get 4-6 people to show up to run shovels to accomplish the same task.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

So staying on your smaller machine idea. How about something like the SSV but with loader arms like a dingo. Heated cab, can be stand up cab. Quick attach on the loader arms for a bucket, blower, plow, or broom. If you had the broom on loader arms then you could do steps with it. Make it tracked and you could probably do more than just a couple steps and climb the stairs.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> let's keep it on topic please
> 
> thanks


I just answered the question...what were you thinking I meant?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> Heated cab, can be stand up cab.


Instead of standing, you could put a small stool that you could lean or sit on. Similar to the stool on the front of a bass boat.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

ktfbgb said:


> So staying on your smaller machine idea. How about something like the SSV but with loader arms like a dingo. Heated cab, can be stand up cab. Quick attach on the loader arms for a bucket, blower, plow, or broom. If you had the broom on loader arms then you could do steps with it. Make it tracked and you could probably do more than just a couple steps and climb the stairs.


I'll let you take a 1500lb+ machine on these stairs with a broom...:laugh:

It sounds like a mini skid is what your already at... Me personally salt is huge so being able to do that too with the machine kills the need to run the different attachments.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I'll let you take a 1500lb+ machine on these stairs with a broom...:laugh:
> 
> It sounds like a mini skid is what your already at... Me personally salt is huge so being able to do that too with the machine kills the need to run the different attachments.
> View attachment 175114


I would do it. As there would be safety arms that swing down on the back like an electric wheel chair for climbing stairs.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Salting would be big for me too. I've never seen anyone do liquids here, so just a hopper spreader would be fine with me. Something with a fairly large hopper that would hold quite a bit, or at least room to carry extra bags (maybe both). 

I'm not proud to admit this, but I had a property years back that I couldn't drive up to and drop bags randomly on the walks. I actually attached one of those children's wagons to my hip and loaded it with enough bags to do the whole sidewalk. I felt and looked like a jackass, but it did the trick for the season, and saved me a ton of time from running back and forth to the truck.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

What about a 4x4 z spray with a cab and enough power to run a ebling type winged back plow. With wings folded it could do 36" walks and with wings out it could do up to 5-6'.

Not "the greatest" idea, but a starting point.

Buff, what machine do you plan on starting with? Maybe if you have an idea on that we could add to it.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Here is the 4wd model.... I think they make a surround for it I believe kind of like a three sided deal... With my zsprays I have rarely ever needed 4wd maybe a few situations it would of been needed... City walks I let build up etc.. I just wanted to try something different and didn't want a fourth zspray so got a snowrator.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

2wd machines hold about 200lbs in hopper, a couple bags stacked on the hopper, and another two in the back carry bins and you can take along a lot of salt...


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## pieperlc (Jan 4, 2005)

Ajlawn1 said:


> 2wd machines hold about 200lbs in hopper, a couple bags stacked on the hopper, and another two in the back carry bins and you can take along a lot of salt...
> 
> View attachment 175116


It's the one on the left a new intermediate or a max?


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## pieperlc (Jan 4, 2005)

I feel a two speed dingo or comparable machine would be comparable to the ssv & snowrator. Seems they world good if they would make them this way. Lots of attachments, maneuverable, and usable year 'round.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

pieperlc said:


> It's the one on the left a new intermediate or a max?


All Intermediates...


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> What about a 4x4 z spray with a cab and enough power to run a ebling type winged back plow. With wings folded it could do 36" walks and with wings out it could do up to 5-6'.
> 
> Not "the greatest" idea, but a starting point.
> 
> Buff, what machine do you plan on starting with? Maybe if you have an idea on that we could add to it.


I doubt he would start with a machine. Maybe. But you have no idea the type of machining and CNC equipment he has. He can pretty much make anything and knows how to write the CAD program for it. That's why I was thinking outside the box and not really trying to think about a base machine to stRt off from.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> I doubt he would start with a machine. Maybe. But you have no idea the type of machining and CNC equipment he has. He can pretty much make anything and knows how to write the CAD program for it. That's why I was thinking outside the box and not really trying to think about a base machine to stRt off from.


I see.... I was thinking along the lines of improving one machine.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

pieperlc said:


> I feel a two speed dingo or comparable machine would be comparable to the ssv & snowrator. Seems they world good if they would make them this way. Lots of attachments, maneuverable, and usable year 'round.


I think the ssv and snowrater are faster that the dingo type machines. That is the dingos biggest flaw, that and it needs more counterweight for a heavier lifting capacity.


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## pieperlc (Jan 4, 2005)

JMHConstruction said:


> I think the ssv and snowrater are faster that the dingo type machines. That is the dingos biggest flaw, that and it needs more counterweight for a heavier lifting capacity.


Agreed, that's why I was thinking a two speed machine with a high gear that would be close to that of the dedicated sidewalk machines.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> I see.... I was thinking along the lines of improving one machine.


Could be wrong though. He might be bizzie


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

JMHConstruction said:


> Maybe I missed something on here, but why aren't you plowing this year?


I decided in August I was done plowing for hire and I sold most my snow removal equipment this fall. I've done this before and who knows maybe I'll get back into it at some capacity in a few years or so..



Defcon 5 said:


> He is Busy


Yes I am, working on getting my poop in a group for the next chapter of my life in Wyoming. Being held hostage by snow in the forecast limits my ability to head north and work on things there. I'm also do mowing too.



Mark Oomkes said:


> He's playing with old wood....


Playing with old wood has been a lot of fun and very rewarding in a "spiritual" sense. Plus the financial rewards are mulch greater than being a snow or yard monkey.
I hope to continue this adventure next year.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> I decided in August I was done plowing for hire and I sold most my snow removal equipment this fall. I've done this before and who knows maybe I'll get back into it at some capacity in a few years or so..
> 
> Yes I am, working on getting my poop in a group for the next chapter of my life in Wyoming. Being held hostage by snow in the forecast limits my ability to head north and work on things there. I'm also do mowing too.
> 
> ...


Hopefully ill have a project one of these days i can buy some from you.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

JMHConstruction said:


> Buff, what machine do you plan on starting with? Maybe if you have an idea on that we could add to it.


Ground up build, take some of the best/better features of whats oot there currently and putting it into one rig, at least attempt too.

The drivetrain would be based oof a Z-T mower, 30hp air cooled gas, 4wd, skid steer, stand up operator position, partial cab similar to a Heat Houser used on open cab tractor, electric over hyd to position attachments, PTO driven attachments (utilize what's currently oot there and make compatible), liquid and granular options, Jaagoof lights, blinky lights are a few of the things I'm thinking.
Build for 48" walks and capable of curb hopping.

My "real job" I run a 25 man shop that builds plastic injection molds, so I have a fully equipped machine shop at my disposal along with CAD software for design for doing projects like this.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> Ground up build, take some of the best/better features of whats oot there currently and putting it into one rig, at least attempt too.
> 
> The drivetrain would be based oof a Z-T mower, 30hp air cooled gas, 4wd, skid steer, stand up operator position, partial cab similar to a Heat Houser used on open cab tractor, electric over hyd to position attachments, PTO driven attachments (utilize what's currently oot there and make compatible), liquid and granular options, Jaagoof lights, blinky lights are a few of the things I'm thinking.
> Build for 48" walks and capable of curb hopping.
> ...


Ill be happy to beta test for you.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> let's keep it on topic please
> 
> thanks


Michael I started this thread in the Oof Topic forum so the thread could be light hearted and give the guys the opportunity to have a little fun too.
You have the ultimate say on what goes on, I'm just giving you some insight as to why I went to the Oof Topic Forum for this discussion.
Hope you can understand.Thumbs Up


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

ktfbgb said:


> Hopefully ill have a project one of these days i can buy some from you.


My trip over Prime Rib day I got some real nice 1X8 ruff cut Cedar. I should have most of the timbers,etc at my place by the 1st of the year.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

BUFF said:


> Michael I started this thread in the Oof Topic forum so the thread could be light hearted and give the guys the opportunity to have a little fun too.
> You have the ultimate say on what goes on, I'm just giving you some insight as to why I went to the Oof Topic Forum for this discussion.
> Hope you can understand.Thumbs Up


I understand that, however it should be a discussion that is about such a machine that is industry specific and not off topic, right? So why can't there be a decent, on topic discussion about it? There's already plenty of off topic discussions you guys post in to shoot the breeze and discuss whatever


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)




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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> I understand that, however it should be a discussion that is about such a machine that is industry specific and not off topic, right? So why can't there be a decent, on topic discussion about it? There's already plenty of off topic discussions you guys post in to shoot the breeze and discuss whatever


It's actually going pretty well...Some good ideas mixed in with some humor...If we can keep Oomkes Buffoonery out of here things should move right along...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> I understand that, however it should be a discussion that is about such a machine that is industry specific and not off topic, right? So why can't there be a decent, on topic discussion about it? There's already plenty of off topic discussions you guys post in to shoot the breeze and discuss whatever


I can see your position too.......


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

4WD based off a zero turn? Assuming one shaft from each side that would imply a chain or gearbox between the axles? I think that's how the Dixie Chopper 4x4 does it.

I'm not sure you need it if you get the weight distribution so that 80%+ of the weight is on two wheels.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> I understand that, however it should be a discussion that is about such a machine that is industry specific and not off topic, right? So why can't there be a decent, on topic discussion about it? There's already plenty of off topic discussions you guys post in to shoot the breeze and discuss whatever


I was just explaining what Buzz was doing instead of plowing this year.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

sounds good guys...just making sure and trying to keep discussion on point Thumbs Up


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

OK...keeping it realistic so it is affordable. 

Something very similar to the SSV in all honesty. But you will have 2 schools of thought need. 
1) Those doing long, relatively straight walks will desire a sitdown with cab tractor type. Maneuverability isn't as important. 
2) Those doing retail, office, apartment type walks where there are a lot of tight areas, maneuverability is everything. 

So IMO, one machine is not going to be everyone's solution. Shoot, I have 2 different size tractors for long, straight walks. 2 similar machines for the tighter walks. 

I'm guessing Ventrac considered an articulating stand on model but cost would put it out of reach. 4WS would also increase the cost significantly I would think. I honestly don't understand the reversible flow option for the broom on the SSV. 

But anyways: 4WD; PTO; small diesel would be great and solve power issues but would increase cost unless you keep it under 25HP so you don't get into EPA nonsense; I would prefer a drop spreader, a liquid option would be great or both, but if only 1 I would go with granular; controls like a stand-on mower to reduce training time; 4WS or articulation if it could be done reasonably; broom and blower (for heavier snowfalls); 3 sided enclosure to keep snow and wind oof the operator; 8-10 MPH travel speed...maybe even operating speed; handwarmers run oof the hydros; the attachments need to be able to be swapped in under 5 minutes total. Toro has a pretty good setup on their PolarTrac and 360.

I've changed my mind on width, while 99% of our walks are 60" or bigger, daytime snowfalls make a 60" broom or blower worthless because of cars hanging over the walks. 36-48" would be max. 2 passes and the second one can be dropping salt\spraying. 

How's that for starters?

I've said it before, if the drop spreader was available on the SSV, I'd have one in my fleet right now.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> 4WD based off a zero turn? Assuming one shaft from each side that would imply a chain or gearbox between the axles? I think that's how the Dixie Chopper 4x4 does it.
> 
> I'm not sure you need it if you get the weight distribution so that 80%+ of the weight is on two wheels.


Was thinking one pump/wheel motor per side with a chain case to drive the second tire for simplicity and cost. Also thought aboot your forklift comment too. Oot of all the Z-T type mowers Walker's seem to have more traction and don't get shoved around when windrowing with the drive wheels being up front. Plus a single rear would reduce going oof the walk when spinning around. The only draw back I can see is getting stuck if the operator tries to stack to high at the end of a dead end push. Plus if putting a drop spreader mounted to the rear of the machine one wheel would be enough.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> OK...keeping it realistic so it is affordable.
> 
> Something very similar to the SSV in all honesty. But you will have 2 schools of thought need.
> 1) Those doing long, relatively straight walks will desire a sitdown with cab tractor type. Maneuverability isn't as important.
> ...


Wow a little tune up from Dean Wormer does wonders.
I fully understand one machine won't do it all, looking for something that would capture the majority of the requirements.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

It's so nice when all Marks Meds line up and he has a Moment of clarity.....


That being said...Ventrac has both options covered....Pricey??...Yes....But if you price your work correct these machines will make you money


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> It's so nice when all Marks Meds line up and he has a Moment of clarity.....
> 
> That being said...Ventrac has both options covered....Pricey??...Yes....But if you price your work correct these machines will make you money


Understood...don't strain yourself peeling bananas today.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

My feeling on the 2 versus 4 wheel drive is that it doesn't matter as long as the weight is on driven wheels. During the building of my hangars, I had to go to a steel yard a few times to pick up some stuff (using a borrowed pickup) when it was icy. They had an old clark. It came out of one bay, and then struggled mightily to get to the bay where my stuff was. One wheel would lose traction, and it would just stop due to the open diff. It took about 5 minutes to go 100 feet. With my pallet of stuff on the forks, it drove around like it was dry. It took 30 seconds to have my stuff loaded into the bed. It was still struggling to get back inside when I left.

From reading on here and other places, more surface area is not better in winter. Tall and skinny tires seem to be the suggestion, as they put more pressure on the ground.

Therefore, using two heavily loaded tires to drive, and one lightly loaded holding up the back would be ideal. I think your best bet would be to design it so that with the heaviest implement on the front and a hypothetical zero weight driver, it will barely not tip over under braking.

This will also reduce the amount of push sideways if you are windrowing, as the mass will be closer to the plow. A problem I see is that you couldn't get down pressure, and ideally, you would keep the weight of the plow mostly on the drive wheels rather than on the blade.

I wouldn't worry about breaking the rear wheel. On my QN-20, there is probably 1000 lb on it when nothing is on the forks, and, in a non-OSHA environment, have had to have people hang on the back to give me steering authority when I had to carry something tall through a doorway, and so leaned it forward with a chain around the top back to the mast. It wasn't a case of it tipping over, just loss of steering. If you are using zero turn steering, that wouldn't be an issue.

Deleting a second set of drive tires and the transmission to them will be less expensive, and if you get the weight distribution right, should still give enough traction. The third wheel in the back will give you a longer wheelbase, so a much better ride. I cruise along on mine at an estimated 15 mph, with no problem (unless I hit a pothole I didn't see).

The only problem I see with a sander or salter on the back is that you might get enough weight transfer to the back wheel so you lose traction if it is really slippery.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'll take 4WD for the win Alex. Both the Zplow and grandstand struggle with 2WD.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'll take 4WD for the win Alex. Both the Zplow and grandstand struggle with 2WD.


You need to eat more....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

4wd is a must the majority of the time IMO, it'll also compensate for less experienced operators and give the machine more capability.
Narrow sypted tires are a must have for traction.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> You need to eat more....


I'm down 50# in a little over a year. Cholesterol is down over 130 points. I was well on my way to being roomies with Defcon or pushing daisies.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm down 50# in a little over a year. Cholesterol is down over 130 points. I was well on my way to being roomies with Defcon or pushing daisies.


Well there's the problem.... So the days of telling people you're big boned go away as you get older...?

I know I've said it on here before but most things we take care of rarely get 2-3" on them before we service them so 4x4 has never been an issue they may be pushed multiple times but the storm timing would have to be perfect outside of business hours and before our normal start time of 2ish to really pile up anything more... I have noticed just like a skid the Snowrator is very herky jerky on drive pavement turning, may ease up a bit I am sure with a little snow and ice under it though for some slippage....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Well there's the problem.... So the days of telling people you're big boned go away as you get older...?
> 
> I know I've said it on here before but most things we take care of rarely get 2-3" on them before we service them so 4x4 has never been an issue they may be pushed multiple times but the storm timing would have to be perfect outside of business hours and before our normal start time of 2ish to really pile up anything more... I have noticed just like a skid the Snowrator is very herky jerky on drive pavement turning, may ease up a bit I am sure with a little snow and ice under it though for some slippage....


I completely get what you're saying aboot the average storm and oot west our snow is pretty dry too. On the flip side if you're in lake affect country you're faced with deeper amounts and higher moisture content. Also there's those areas that rain turns to snow and there's a lovely 2-3" layer of slush with several inches of Sierra Cement on top of it. 
Could the herky jerky be due to the short wheel base?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

BUFF said:


> I completely get what you're saying aboot the average storm and oot west our snow is pretty dry too. On the flip side if you're in lake affect country you're faced with deeper amounts and higher moisture content. Also there's those areas that rain turns to snow and there's a lovely 2-3" layer of slush with several inches of Sierra Cement on top of it.
> Could the herky jerky be due to the short wheel base?


Actually its just opposite, The system snows are heavy and wet... LE is like dust very light and fluffy. 3-4" of systems snow will push harder then 8" of LE. Lake Effect you can melt off easier with salt due to less moisture content. Wet heavy system snow can be a pita to melt off with just salt.... And yes there are times of 1-2" an hour lake effect storms with white out conditions but sometimes those bands are only over you for a short time and other times they will sit on you for hours... And yes short wheel base and 4wd posi doesn't help.....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Well there's the problem.... So the days of telling people you're big boned go away as you get older...?
> 
> I know I've said it on here before but most things we take care of rarely get 2-3" on them before we service them so 4x4 has never been an issue they may be pushed multiple times but the storm timing would have to be perfect outside of business hours and before our normal start time of 2ish to really pile up anything more... I have noticed just like a skid the Snowrator is very herky jerky on drive pavement turning, may ease up a bit I am sure with a little snow and ice under it though for some slippage....


Biggest issue for getting aroond enuff is I really need to split 2 sidewalk routes into 3. But I just did that with 2 driveway routes. I.E. tractor/blower. And I'd still like to have another operator or 2, plus some backups.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'd rather have the 4WD and not really need it than need it and not have it...kinda like a parachute.


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## rob1325 (Jan 6, 2000)

Would love machine for 36” walks, with broom, plow, & snowblower. If can drop spreader on it plus.


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## TPCLandscaping (Jan 19, 2012)

We use this on our walkways. We have the plow and sweeper, adding a blower to it this year. I also have a 6' pusher for it. Most of our sidewalks are in the 48" range


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

It sounds like you are trying to figure out if there would be a market between the stand-up machines and the municipal tractors. I'm intellectually curious, so here's a comparison between two: a Ventrac SSV type machine and a Holder X30 type of machine, along with some questions that will hopefully generate useful information. 

The X-30 is much smaller than most municipal tractors (Trackless, M-B, Holder C-series). The Karcher MIC26 comes closest, but is not sold in the US as far as I can tell.The Holder is less than 30" wide to the outside of the tires, has a cab, heat, AC if you want it, what looks like a nifty quick attach system, 27 horsepower diesel, 16 mph travel speed. 4 wheel hydraulic drive on an articulating chassis. Wheelbase is 52", 39" maximum width, overall length 111", weight of 2400 lb. As far as I can tell it has two hydraulic circuits to power the attachments (plow, V-plow, broom, snowblower, brine sprayer, drop spreader, broadcast spreader) instead of a PTO: one 5.2 gpm (rear?), one 15.4 gpm (front?). It can carry a total of 2000 lb of stuff (attachments, dirt in a dump body, etc.) It comes remarkably close to the ideal sidewalk machines postulated above. I'm not sure on cost, but I'd guess $60K without attachments.

Does anyone on here have one? If not, why not? What is the price point at which a machine becomes unworkable financially to a non-public entity no matter how good it is? 
How would you transport a machine like this in the winter?

The SSV is a stand on machine, and is the latest and greatest 36" stand-up sidewalk machine. It costs about $11K without attachments, and has a broom, blower, plow, and, in the future, a brine sprayer. It is powered by an 18 hp gasoline engine. Skidsteer type 4-wheel drive with a 28" wheelbase on a rigid chassis. It has a travel speed of 8 mph, is 67" long, 55" high, and 34" wide (might be narrower at the tires). It weighs 990 lb.
A few questions for the SSV owners...
How do you transport it? Is the difference between transporting it and the X30 significant? How much heavier and/or larger could the SSV be and still be easy to transport?
How much extra would it be worth it to you to be able to increase your travel speed to 12 mph? 16?
I was looking at the manual and it says the PTO is optional. What's the point of it without the PTO? Not trying to be a troll, just trying to figure out the market.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'd rather have the 4WD and not really need it than need it and not have it...kinda like a parachute.


I understand, but it is % of weight on the driving wheels, not number that matter.

To engage in a little hyperbole, snowmobiles have a 1 "wheel" drive, and they get around just fine. The SSV, although it has 4 wheel drive, also has a weight transfer mechanism to keep from losing traction, at least according to the manual.

If most of the weight (80%) could be put on the driving wheels, I'm not sure there would be a noticeable difference between 2 wheel and 4 wheel drive in terms of traction and the cost difference might be significant.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It sounds like you are trying to figure out if there would be a market between the stand-up machines and the municipal tractors. I'm intellectually curious, so here's a comparison between two: a Ventrac SSV type machine and a Holder X30 type of machine, along with some questions that will hopefully generate useful information.
> 
> The X-30 is much smaller than most municipal tractors (Trackless, M-B, Holder C-series). The Karcher MIC26 comes closest, but is not sold in the US as far as I can tell.The Holder is less than 30" wide to the outside of the tires, has a cab, heat, AC if you want it, what looks like a nifty quick attach system, 27 horsepower diesel, 16 mph travel speed. 4 wheel hydraulic drive on an articulating chassis. Wheelbase is 52", 39" maximum width, overall length 111", weight of 2400 lb. As far as I can tell it has two hydraulic circuits to power the attachments (plow, V-plow, broom, snowblower, brine sprayer, drop spreader, broadcast spreader) instead of a PTO: one 5.2 gpm (rear?), one 15.4 gpm (front?). It can carry a total of 2000 lb of stuff (attachments, dirt in a dump body, etc.) It comes remarkably close to the ideal sidewalk machines postulated above. I'm not sure on cost, but I'd guess $60K without attachments.
> 
> ...


No trolling can be implied....... Your willingness to take things to the molecular level provides another dimension to think aboot and it's all good. Thumbs Up
With snow revenue being a "kicker" for most the capital expense for a Holder or Trackless is beyond the reach for the majority even though they are probably the most capable machine for the job.
By digressing into the SSV, Sno Rator Spray Z class machine there's more opportunity. More so if taking the best attributes of them and putting them into a user friendly, lower maintenance, capable and cost friendly machine.
There's been some excellent input from guys that run sidewalks crews that rely on a capable machine. I need to digest the input, sketch up some concepts and come up with a bill of materials for cost.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I understand, but it is % of weight on the driving wheels, not number that matter.
> 
> To engage in a little hyperbole, snowmobiles have a 1 "wheel" drive, and they get around just fine. The SSV, although it has 4 wheel drive, also has a weight transfer mechanism to keep from losing traction, at least according to the manual.
> 
> If most of the weight (80%) could be put on the driving wheels, I'm not sure there would be a noticeable difference between 2 wheel and 4 wheel drive in terms of traction and the cost difference might be significant.


Snowmobiles are a completely different beast. Flatland sleds have minimal weight transfer to keep pressure on the skis for handling. By running a tight rear skid picks or stars are added to the tracks for traction.
Mtn Sleds chassis are set up completely different. Track approach angle is reduced by dropping and rolling the chain case which drops the drivers. This allows the track to get on top of the snow and not rut. The rear suspension is loose for weight transfer to get the skis on top of or oot of the snow. Front ski pressure is minimal, front sway bars are also not common, this allows for easy side hilling slops. Tracks are long and have tall/deep paddles, track rubber compound is a softer durometer to allow the paddles to fold for floatation
Track speed is king, it keeps you on top of the snow. Horsepower and power to weight ration is another key factor not only for capability but also for rider fatigue. With myself being large person Floatation, and power to weight ratio is a must to help compensate for my size.
I found decades ago a mtn sled you can by from a dealer wasn't cutting it so I started to build my own custom rolling chassis, tweaked motors and put the longest track available under them.

Here's a couple of my builds.
2003 Polaris 800 RMK, Bought it as a total lose from a dealer for $1200.00, it had 140miles before the moron wrecked it.
Motor bored to 850cc, Case and jugs ported, V-Force Carbon fiber reeds, Carbs and Boots bored oot to 42mm, SLP pipe, Carbon fiber trailing arms with c-moly spindles, Billet radius rods, C-molt steering shaft, C-Moly handle bars, Works long travel aluminum body shocks front and rear. Mesh hood, Light weight seat, custom tunnel with tail kicked up aboot 3", machined rails, C-moly long travel rearskid,156"X2" Camoplast Challenger track. It weighed 432# dry

















2005 Yamaha Viper, bought new from a buddy that has a Yamaha dealership. Took it home in the crate and took it apart.
Motor bored to 925cc, Case and jugs ported, V-Force Carbon fiber reeds, Carbs and Boots bored oot to 40mm, Bender tripe pipes, Aluminum trailing arms with c-moly spindles, Billet radius rods, C-molt steering shaft, C-Moly handle bars, Works long travel aluminum body shocks front and rear. Mesh hood, Light weight seat, custom tunnel, machined rails, C-moly long travel rearskid,156"X2" Camoplast Challenger track. It weighed 443# dry.


















2006 Yamaha Apex (4cy, 4stroke), Super Charger (15psi Boost), compression dropped to 10:1, programmer for A/F mix, Ti exhaust into a carbon fiber stinger, Custom C-moly Arms, Billet Spindles, Billet radius rods, C-molt steering shaft, C-Moly handle bars, Elka long travel aluminum body shocks front and rear. Poly carb hood, Light weight seat, c-moly rear skid hangers, C-moly long travel rearskid,156"X2" Camoplast Challenger track. It weighed 508# dry.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> Snowmobiles are a completely different beast. Flatland sleds have minimal weight transfer to keep pressure on the skis for handling. By running a tight rear skid picks or stars are added to the tracks for traction.
> Mtn Sleds chassis are set up completely different. Track approach angle is reduced by dropping and rolling the chain case which drops the drivers. This allows the track to get on top of the snow and not rut. The rear suspension is loose for weight transfer to get the skis on top of or oot of the snow. Front ski pressure is minimal, front sway bars are also not common, this allows for easy side hilling slops. Tracks are long and have tall/deep paddles, track rubber compound is a softer durometer to allow the paddles to fold for floatation
> Track speed is king, it keeps you on top of the snow. Horsepower and power to weight ration is another key factor not only for capability but also for rider fatigue. With myself being large person Floatation, and power to weight ratio is a must to help compensate for my size.
> I found decades ago a mtn sled you can by from a dealer wasn't cutting it so I started to build my own custom rolling chassis, tweaked motors and put the longest track available under them.
> ...


I'll beta test one of those too Thumbs Up


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

ktfbgb said:


> I'll beta test one of those too Thumbs Up


I bet ewe wood...... Sold the Polaris and the Apex, still have the Viper and the wardens Mtn Max which a tamer version of the Viper.


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## TPCLandscaping (Jan 19, 2012)

BUFF said:


> Snowmobiles are a completely different beast. Flatland sleds have minimal weight transfer to keep pressure on the skis for handling. By running a tight rear skid picks or stars are added to the tracks for traction.
> Mtn Sleds chassis are set up completely different. Track approach angle is reduced by dropping and rolling the chain case which drops the drivers. This allows the track to get on top of the snow and not rut. The rear suspension is loose for weight transfer to get the skis on top of or oot of the snow. Front ski pressure is minimal, front sway bars are also not common, this allows for easy side hilling slops. Tracks are long and have tall/deep paddles, track rubber compound is a softer durometer to allow the paddles to fold for floatation
> Track speed is king, it keeps you on top of the snow. Horsepower and power to weight ration is another key factor not only for capability but also for rider fatigue. With myself being large person Floatation, and power to weight ratio is a must to help compensate for my size.
> I found decades ago a mtn sled you can by from a dealer wasn't cutting it so I started to build my own custom rolling chassis, tweaked motors and put the longest track available under them.
> ...


Those are setup pretty sweet. Ive gotten into what they consider cross over sleds..i have a 2017 Skidoo Renegade Backcountry. Its a summit suspension and chassis with 146x16x1.6 track and a bit wider front ski stance. You are supposed to be able to ride on trail all day and jump off in 3 feet of snow when you want.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Those are neat. Sorry (sort of) for providing fuel for a digression. That’s what I get for mentioning something with which I have no experience.

I’m still sticking with my thesis that 2wd or 4wd (or 6x6 or 8x8) doesn’t matter as much as % of weight on the driving wheels.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Those are neat. Sorry (sort of) for providing fuel for a digression. That's what I get for mentioning something with which I have no experience.
> 
> I'm still sticking with my thesis that 2wd or 4wd (or 6x6 or 8x8) doesn't matter as much as % of weight on the driving wheels.


Don't worry I'm with you on the 2wd vs. 4wd have not needed it.. Could it be useful in certain situations, yes.

As for sleds been out of the seen ever since I broke my femur wrapping my 98 SRX when they first came out around a tree up in Copper Harbor.... Game over...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Those are neat. Sorry (sort of) for providing fuel for a digression. That's what I get for mentioning something with which I have no experience.
> 
> I'm still sticking with my thesis that 2wd or 4wd (or 6x6 or 8x8) doesn't matter as much as % of weight on the driving wheels.


I'm not as smart as you. But I do have real world experience. And the 2WD ZPlow can transfer a good portion of the weight to the 2 drive tires plus the operator and salt weight in the hopper. Can even add another 100# on the carriers. Plus liquids. Heavy snow\long pushes it struggles and you have to keep pushing oof to the side. Speed is 8 MPH approx so not enough to really windrow heavy snow or long pushes. One of my operators was close to Buzz size.

The tyres might not have helped mulch, and we have new ones for our new ZPlow, but I still think a 4WD is necessary when one can't generate enough speed to windrow the snow over top of the banks or you're pushing 6"+.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> How much extra would it be worth it to you to be able to increase your travel speed to 12 mph? 16?


This would be scary on a stand on type machine. Especially with a skidsteer type 4WD system, one little turn or slip of the controls and you're going for a ride withoot the macheen.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

So here is the thing with 4x4. The flatlanders think it’s not necessary, the mountain men know it is. I understand that weight distribution is key. But sometimes that isn’t enough. There are a lot of driveways here that I can’t get up forward or reverse, empty or loaded with a trailer when it’s DRY without putting it into 4x4. 

My tractor that I use for sidewalks is 4x4. I have sections of sidewalk that are very steep. Ya I plow down hill, there is no way in hell that machine can climb back up that grade in 2 wheel drive unless the tears were chained. And out here in many sections of my sidewalk route if you slip off the sidewalk there isn’t something hard that you hit. If you go off the non road side much of the time you sink that tire right into the mud. Sometimes you can get out sometimes even in 4x4 you can’t get the machine to pull itself out over the lip of the concrete.

So when guys are accustomed to the kinds of conditions you have in the mountains, if there was a machine without 4x4 for doing sidewalks, you would be very hard pressed to get me to take the time to even look at it. No matter how well the weight was distributed over the tires.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

1. Never confuse being smart with being educated. I know some very smart and successful people that never went beyond high school due to family circumstances or personal choice. You may very well be smarter than I am, but you are vastly more experienced in moving snow.

2. Data from the real world is, ultimately, ground truth. Math applied to physical and engineering principles explains why things happen, and informs and predicts so that what you design or build has a better chance when confronted by reality, but it is not a substitute.


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## TPCLandscaping (Jan 19, 2012)

We always run the tractor in 2wd until we start getting stuck or a lot of tire spin. We run 350lbs of salt in the spreader on the 3pt hitch. It helps a lot with traction.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I was googling around....
Z Plow is made by a different company than the one that makes the Z-Spray (but who makes the Snowrator)?

I think that one of the issues is that if the plow is a long way away from the drive wheels, you get a considerable moment when windrowing, in addition to the sideforce. To compensate, the drive has to come mostly from one side (the one away from the side the plow is angled to). It is particularly hard if the non drive wheels simply caster, since then all the moment comes from a differential drive force on the tires.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I was googling around....
> Z Plow is made by a different company than the one that makes the Z-Spray (but who makes the Snowrator)?


ZPlow is a Zspray that a local guy made up. Tried to sell it to LT Rich, but apparently the SnowRator was already in the works and they didn't bite.

So LT Rich makes the ZSpray and SnowRator. Eric modifies the ZSpray into a ZPlow.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

TPCLandscaping said:


> Those are setup pretty sweet. Ive gotten into what they consider cross over sleds..i have a 2017 Skidoo Renegade Backcountry. Its a summit suspension and chassis with 146x16x1.6 track and a bit wider front ski stance. You are supposed to be able to ride on trail all day and jump off in 3 feet of snow when you want.
> 
> View attachment 175246


I've riden X-Over sleds and they pretty capable machines.
Going back to the mid90's a 136X2 was a big track and standard on factory mtn sleds


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Don't worry I'm with you on the 2wd vs. 4wd have not needed it.. Could it be useful in certain situations, yes.
> 
> As for sleds been out of the seen ever since I broke my femur wrapping my 98 SRX when they first came out around a tree up in Copper Harbor.... Game over...


SRX's where tanks but the motors were awesome, played around with long tracking them but between the weight and chassis geometry they never really shined. The SRX bottom ends were built proof and going to 1150cc was pretty common back in the day.

Busted femurs do slow you down, have a couple buddies broke them and one actually broke both. They still ride but not as hard.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm not as smart as you. But I do have real world experience. And the 2WD ZPlow can transfer a good portion of the weight to the 2 drive tires plus the operator and salt weight in the hopper. Can even add another 100# on the carriers. Plus liquids. Heavy snow\long pushes it struggles and you have to keep pushing oof to the side. Speed is 8 MPH approx so not enough to really windrow heavy snow or long pushes. One of my operators was close to Buzz size.
> 
> The tyres might not have helped mulch, and we have new ones for our new ZPlow, but I still think a 4WD is necessary when one can't generate enough speed to windrow the snow over top of the banks or you're pushing 6"+.


 I think a minimum of 10mph is needed to get the snow to roll oof the blade. As you pointed oot in another post too mulch speed with a marginal ooperator the ooperator can / would get flicked like a dry booger....


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Mark Oomkes said:


> ZPlow is a Zspray that a local guy made up. Tried to sell it to LT Rich, but apparently the SnowRator was already in the works and they didn't bite.
> 
> So LT Rich makes the ZSpray and SnowRator. Eric modifies the ZSpray into a ZPlow.


So how do they compare for windrowing?

How do they compare for drivability? Is there one that you feel more comfortable in going faster than the other?

How much does the having the 3rd wheel on the z-plow leading the charge mess up the drivability or the scraping as it rides up on the snow?

From a pure traction point of view, is there one that can get up an icy ramp that the other can't when the blade is raised?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I would pay a 5k premium for our 1025 to be the same size but go 15 mph. That makes it more than capable of driving around with no support other than having salt refills. 

We are going to use an enclosed trailer to move the SSV around this winter. I wanted and still want a box truck, but more important things prevailed in the budgeting. I would not want any more than 8-10 mph in this machine, any faster and things would get scary fast if you bumped a control wrong.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> So how do they compare for windrowing?


No idea, I don't own a Snowrator. I did give my review of one...just looking at it. I was somewhat unimpressed.



Aerospace Eng said:


> How do they compare for drivability? Is there one that you feel more comfortable in going faster than the other?


Definitely the ZSpray\Plow because it only has 2 drive wheels, it isn't nearly as herky jerky. This is assuming the Snowrator drives similar to the SSV which I did drive around on dry pavement.



Aerospace Eng said:


> How much does the having the 3rd wheel on the z-plow leading the charge mess up the drivability or the scraping as it rides up on the snow?


3rd wheel? The castors up front? It doesn't really but it doesn't have down pressure either. Could have sworn my old one did, but my memory sucks.

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/lt-richs-snowrator.163165/page-2#post-2129974

I have changed my mind on the width aspect.

Rumor on the playground is LT Rich has something in the works like the SSV. With broom capability.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Googling around, the z-plow has a third wheel up front.

http://smartmfg.net/Images09/LSDSimgs/Zplow012.jpg


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Googling around, the z-plow has a third wheel up front.
> 
> http://smartmfg.net/Images09/LSDSimgs/Zplow012.jpg


New ones have two casters up front
http://www.z-spray.com/sprayers/


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Does the z plow now use two, or replace the double with a single?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Does the z plow now use two, or replace the double with a single?


Two, I'm sure they had tipping/stability issue's with the single up front hence the change.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

The machine you're looking at is the aerator machine that they do offer a mid mount blade for... I think it does now have two front casters instead.... Machines we are referring to are actual spreader style zsprays with custom blade setups....

Time to put this to bed....TBC....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Does the z plow now use two, or replace the double with a single?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


>


I want one


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Holy carp that thing is cool. How does it work on wet snow? I dont think Ive ever encountered snow that light and powdery before.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ktfbgb said:


> Holy carp that thing is cool. How does it work on wet snow? I dont think Ive ever encountered snow that light and powdery before.


99% of the time our lake effect is like that. Not out of the ordinary to have 15:1 ratios. We can have 6" of lake effect that settles to 2" over a couple days.

It all depends on what you're doing. Relatively short, tight areas it excels. Longer runs (public walks) is where it struggles. And unfortunately we have a combination on all the routes. Which is why I'm looking for a one size fits all.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Well after a friendly old school Stomper push off it was obvious who the winner was.... Both machines empty about 100lb extra rider on the zspray, snowrator at half throttle... Zspray just broke traction. Does not change my love for the 2wd zspray just if you have heavier deeper snow the 4wd will help for sure... It will be interesting to get into this winter to compare them better as far as speed, turning, salting just overall performance....

I would disagree on the long runs if it fresh long runs are fine... If it's heavy and sat for awhile yes that's where it can have issues....


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I would pay a 5k premium for our 1025 to be the same size but go 15 mph. That makes it more than capable of driving around with no support other than having salt refills.
> 
> We are going to use an enclosed trailer to move the SSV around this winter. I wanted and still want a box truck, but more important things prevailed in the budgeting. I would not want any more than 8-10 mph in this machine, any faster and things would get scary fast if you bumped a control wrong.


There is nothing as far as budgeting to prevail over a sidewalk box truck hauler...just saying... You will never go back to trailers in the winter... I think I'm going to build one for the back of my 550 dump to drive up into it...


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

Wacker WL 30. Small machine. Expensive though. All attachments needed. Fits right down the side walks. Works great.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Ajlawn1 said:


> There is nothing as far as budgeting to prevail over a sidewalk box truck hauler...just saying... You will never go back to trailers in the winter... I think I'm going to build one for the back of my 550 dump to drive up into it...
> 
> View attachment 175252


I just had other things I needed more than a box truck. Maybe if it ever snows I'll do something with one.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> 99% of the time our lake effect is like that. Not out of the ordinary to have 15:1 ratios. We can have 6" of lake effect that settles to 2" over a couple days.
> 
> It all depends on what you're doing. Relatively short, tight areas it excels. Longer runs (public walks) is where it struggles. And unfortunately we have a combination on all the routes. Which is why I'm looking for a one size fits all.


Got it. Mine are all long hoa walks. I would like to take more walks because well, for me they pay way more than plowing. But ya i would need something more substantial. I looked at the Holders online. Dang that thing would be near perfect for me. But by the time i got the loader attachment, and V plow attachment, I bet I could buy 2 1025 R with factory cabs and still have money left over.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Yeah, 

But I bet you could rig up a hydraulic rotary broom on the end of their plant-watering arm and do at least one flight of stairs from inside the cab.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Yeah,
> 
> But I bet you could rig up a hydraulic rotary broom on the end of their plant-watering arm and do at least one flight of stairs from inside the cab.


Boom truck set up for de-icing planes would be cool for stairs....


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

BUFF said:


> Boom truck set up for de-icing planes would be cool for stairs....


Especially the type with an operator in the cab at the end of the boom...

But we digress...

So, Curb hopping.

Why is it important? 
Aren't there enough openings in the sidewalks?
Wouldn't snow pushed up from the street plowing prevent it?

How big a curb would your machine be designed to accommodate?
Ventrac talks about ground clearance for their tractors, but I couldn't find any information on the SSV.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Suspension.

As far as I can tell, none of the stand-on sidewalk machines have much in the way of suspension.

The zero-turn type machines appear to have a rigid axle in the back, with maybe a small amount of suspension on the casters. Is this true? Is the suspension adequate, or does it limit your plowing speed?

On the skid-steer type (SSV, Snowrator), is there any suspension?
Do either the front or back axles pivot, like the steer axles on a tractor or forklift? If not, do you get diagonal tipping when operating on rough ground or uneven sidewalks?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Suspension.
> 
> As far as I can tell, none of the stand-on sidewalk machines have much in the way of suspension.
> 
> ...


The Z spray has a bit of suspension on the front caster, but the springs are collapsed after I put as much salt in the hopper as humanly possible... The rear wheels are just attached to the hydro motors so no give there. They do have springs under the stand on platform... Geared toward the 125lb male rider....

Snowrator has no suspension and all four wheels are just attached to hydro motors... It also has a spring loaded ride on platform.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

2017+ Zsprays have no suspension casters.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Finally ran the Snowrator last night in 3-4" of wet heavier stuff.

Hydraulics are herky jerky, plow, driving - all of it. Sticky snow doesn't windrow real well - probably a lot to do with speed and somewhat with the plow flair. Haven't messed with liquid spraying yet but needing to put down 20 bags a night equals how many gallons with a 20 gallon tank - ain't figured that out yet. Overall, way better for us than the ATV or RTV - you can clear a bunch of square footage with no effort fast...

I wanted something that'd go on a carryall - I don't want a trailer or box truck. I could use a van but do I really want to buy a van, not really..

I want something for tight areas, I want it to fit on a carryall or go in the back of a van. I want to be able to steer and work the plow at the same time easily - make the controls joysticks like a skid steer. Tone the hydros down so you don't need strapped in (Snowrator has the deadman cord lol). Drop spreader that'll hold 100# or so......


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by Carryall? 

A 1940s WC53?
A golf cart?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

The WC53's were and still are BA.
Could be a UPS delivery type rig he's talking aboot.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

He's talking about a hitch mount carrier... Snowrator is a little heavy unless it was a good custom made one I would guess... Yeah the 4wd herky jerky action stinks on dry pavement does better with some snow and ice under it. We found throttled up higher actually helps a little vs idle... Guy here bought two, ready to sell, said his guys hate it and thought it would be smoother... Blew open 6" on city walk this morn with 2wd zspray without issue. The more I think about it just like plowing, granted I have spreaders full I never use 4wd to plow (maybe to keep from sliding into a dock wall).... Is it nice to have of coarse.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Yea, by carry all I mean the hitch mount system like some use for a Permagreen spreader. 

Permagreen weighs 440#, Snowrator is 750#, SSV was 1050# and Grandstand just to big for this idea.

Gonna make a custom carrier that replaces the current hitch - stare at an Ebling hitch mount and you'll see it right away......


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Buff,

After looking at the feedback, here's a new strawman.....

Basically a front mower or 3 wheel morgan, or QN-20 configuration, shrunk to the minimum size possible, with either 1 or 2 in the back. Siut down machine. 

I think a single rear wheel offers some advantages, and so that is what I propose. 

3 points form a plane, so there will be no tipping on the diagonal, and no need of a suspension. Forklifts are typically effectively a three wheel anyway, as the steer axle pivots. Tractors are the same, although their pivoted point that forms the plane is at the front. If the wheelbase is long enough (48"?) and the wheels tall enough, the ride should be smooth enough to allow a high travel speed with stability.

The steering is through a mechanical steer of the rear wheel, rather than have it castering. Steering is better at high speed, and also if you lose traction on a front wheel you can still go straight when driving the other.

Set up the front with a hydrostratically driven transmission that is lockable. The rear wheel is hydrostatically driven as well, but with a motor that has 1/2 the displacement of the one driving the front transmission (corrected for any gear reduction if necessary).

Now you have 3 different driving ranges:
3 wheel low, where all three are driven. Front axle can be locked if necessary for help in a straight line. 

2 wheel normal, where just the front axle is driven. This would be the normal operation. The top speed would be 50% greater than low range. The rear wheel just steers at that point, and oil is pulled through the wheel motor like it would be in a towing mode.

1 wheel travel, where only the rear wheel is driven. In this case, the front axle is just along for the ride. Low traction, but 3x the speed as low range.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Can I add a winch to the wish list?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Got stuck again?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Got stuck again?


Actually, I'll be putting one on my truck to help with "stuck" issues.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Buff,
> 
> After looking at the feedback, here's a new strawman.....
> 
> ...


So you're thinking something along the lines of a 3 wheel AWD all terrain forklift drive systems but with hi/low range, electric locking diff and selectable AWD? That would be BA.....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Can I add a winch to the wish list?


Pontoons too?


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

BUFF said:


> Pontoons too?


LMAO!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> Pontoons too?


Yes...please and thank you


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

One more thing...a tree avoidance system. Would like to adapt it to blower tractors as well.

On that note...light pole avoidance system as well.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> One more thing...a tree avoidance system. Would like to adapt it to blower tractors as well.
> 
> On that note...light pole avoidance system as well.


Sounds like the best avoidance system for your application is leave them parked at the dealer........ Or hire more intelligent primates....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> Sounds like the best avoidance system for your application is leave them parked at the dealer........ Or hire more intelligent primates....


It's been less than a stellar beginning to the season.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's been less than a stellar beginning to the season.


It's still speedo season oot here


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> It's still speedo season oot here


Not sure what's more disturbing...ewe wearing a Speedo or Grant "liking" that you where a Speedo....


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

BUFF said:


> So you're thinking something along the lines of a 3 wheel AWD all terrain forklift drive systems but with hi/low range, electric locking diff and selectable AWD? That would be BA.....
> 
> View attachment 175397


I think that is the idea on the drive. I don't know how the drives on those are structured. I've seen them going down the road hanging off the back of sod and brick delivery trucks.

There would be differences in the overall structure. Those are not true counterbalance trucks. The front wheels stick out on either side of the pallet to some extent, which wouldn't work for a plow or blower. Also, the sidewalk rig would only be about 30" wide.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Aerospace Eng said:


> I think that is the idea on the drive. I don't know how the drives on those are structured. I've seen them going down the road hanging off the back of sod and brick delivery trucks.
> 
> There would be differences in the overall structure. Those are not true counterbalance trucks. The front wheels stick out on either side of the pallet to some extent, which wouldn't work for a plow or blower. Also, the sidewalk rig would only be about 30" wide.


They are true C-Balance lifts but capacity isn't nearly close to the wide stance as shown in the pic I posted.
The single drive wheel has a Hyd motor on it and they rotate +/- 90*.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not sure what's more disturbing...ewe wearing a Speedo or Grant "liking" that you where a Speedo....


Yeah Grant liking that post..... is some real messed up stuff...... Not too sure if I can purge that one


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

BUFF said:


> Yeah Grant liking that post..... is some real messed up stuff...... Not too sure if I can purge that one


I was liking that the weather is still in the mid 50's lol. Sheesh.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ktfbgb said:


> I was liking that the weather is still in the mid 50's lol. Sheesh.


Sure...


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Ive got nothin......


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

After playing around with my municipal tractor some (articulated steering), I think that forklift type steering or 4-wheel steering like on most telehandlers would be better than articulated for tight turns on a sidewalk or close quarter maneuvering. 

I'm used to the articulated from my truck. With the truck, every time you steer at low speed, the box moves sideways a significant amount since ti is 14 feet or so in front of the pivot, so you have to be very cognizant of where everything is and steer very slowly fi at low speed. At higher speeds it isn't very noticeable. 

I didn't think it would be an issue at all with the smaller machine, as the couple is much less. It is much less significant, but it just isn't as smooth or intuitive as a forklift, either at low speed or while backing up. 

Do people with the traditional ventrac's find this to be true as well?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

As I was researching the drive system on my municipal tractor, I found out that the wheel motors on my machine are two speed (Bosch-Rexroth MCR-F), so the high low range is inherent in their design, rather than manipulating the pump. They are radial piston motors with 8 pistons, and for high range you just apply pressure to a port on the motor which turns off 4 of them, doubling the speed but halving the torque. 

This would eliminate the need for a differential, but I don't know if one wheel motor, along with one a differential and associated motor would be more or less expensive than three wheel motors.

You can also have them freewheel by applying pressure to another port, so you could still drive just the rear wheel for high travel speed. With just a couple of switches, you could go from 3 wheel low to 1 wheel high, with a change in travel speed of a factor of 6.

3 Wheel Low 1x
3 Wheel High 2x
2 Wheel Low 1.5x
2 Wheel High 3x
1 Wheel Low 3x
1 Wheel High 6x

I thought their overall design was very clever.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not sure what's more disturbing...ewe wearing a Speedo or Grant "liking" that you where a Speedo....






Lol


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

If there was one single thing I could make our 1025 do that ventrac is capable of doing, it would be articulate in the middle. Or at least have 4 wheel steering.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

John_DeereGreen said:


> If there was one single thing I could make our 1025 do that ventrac is capable of doing, it would be articulate in the middle. Or at least have 4 wheel steering.


Front wheel steer isn't as good as articulating in tight turns. The only front-wheel steer machine whose maneuverability I like is the GR-2110 I use for my lawn and driveway.

The most maneuverable forklift I have used was my three wheeler. It can turn the rear wheel over 90 degrees, and therefore turn so tightly that the inside wheel actually goes backwards, but with complete smoothness.

I like the smoothness of 4 wheel steering better than articulating, but didn't know if others had the same opinion. The other issue I had while playing around with my blower yesterday was that when I was trying to get within 2-3 inches or so of a building, I did not feel very confident. If I needed to correct back toward the building while going forward, the blower head would move sideways more than I wanted, so I had to be very gentle with corrections, resulting in a very high gain task.

How do front mowers (similar to forklift steering) compare to articulating? The last front mower I drove was about 7 years ago, and that was only for an hour or so, so my recollections of that wouldn't be reliable.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

After running oof hospital #2 with the 1025, I remember why I really wanted 4 wheel steer...but diesel won oot. 

I'll be checking with Aaron at Ventrac and\or my local dealer aboot a demo of a 3400. 

This hospital is a lot tighter, more turns, less straightaways and narrower. The 52" broom from Deere is a bigger POS than the 60" "Heavy Duty" is. The HD is fine on the 1025s, but is not nearly strong enough for a 3046. But the 60" is too wide in a bunch of areas at #2. Who knows, maybe they have an SSV aroond yet and that'll get used for clearing and the 1025 for salting. 

But anyways...it has to have either skidsteer turn, 4WS or articulation.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Aerospace Eng said:


> How do front mowers (similar to forklift steering) compare to articulating? The last front mower I drove was about 7 years ago, and that was only for an hour or so, so my recollections of that wouldn't be reliable.


They do great. A friendly competitor ran one for years and years and years and years and years. It has crossed my mind a couple times as that is the only thing I haven't used. But you really need 4WD or chains.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

The front mower I briefly used (Kubota F3060) had 4 wheel drive. 

My parents owned it, but sold their property and didn’t need it. I did some work on it and then sold it for them. It had about 700 hours. I sold it for $12K with 72“ mower deck, heated cab, snowblower, and 60” broom. I played around with it for a bit and was impressed.Up and down 2.5:1 slopes no problem. It was bigger than I needed on my yard. If I had had the hangars then, I would have kept it.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Aerospace Eng said:


> Front wheel steer isn't as good as articulating in tight turns. The only front-wheel steer machine whose maneuverability I like is the GR-2110 I use for my lawn and driveway.
> 
> The most maneuverable forklift I have used was my three wheeler. It can turn the rear wheel over 90 degrees, and therefore turn so tightly that the inside wheel actually goes backwards, but with complete smoothness.
> 
> ...


I would have a 4 wheel steer diesel X700 series if one could be had with the option to run a rear hydraulic scv. Unfortunately that's not possible and be able to run up/down/left/right on a front attachment, so 1025 it is. If the ventrac would have been 10-15% more than a 1025, that's what I'd have done. But for 30-35%, no thanks. The 1025 works just fine in 98% of what it does.

Front mower was an option I considered, but a 4wd front mower is stupid expensive, has no use for us on anything but snow, and still can't run a hydraulic drop spreader.

The articulation can get you into trouble, as you've noted. It's easy to forget sometimes that when you turn the wheel, you're swinging the front and back, not just turning tires. Not speaking from snow use experience, but from running grain carts on 4wd articulating tractors.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

The F3060 had a grass collector that had its own PTO and hydraulically dumped. I would think that that combination would work a drop spreader.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

ktfbgb said:


> OK no budget ultimate machine.
> 
> A 2305/1025R size machine with all wheel steer. No skid steer. And adjustable suspension like the rock crawlers so that on narrow walks you could have one set of tires on the pavement, one set on the walk, and be level.
> 
> ...


Thats all you want ! lol it would be a $85k rig, but would get the job done fast!

sidewalks suck, always a tricky issue, and subjective to contract requirements/limitations. some consider anything bigger than a 2520/1025r type tractor jd "too big". I once saw a company using a 3720 cab compact tractor with a broom, which honestly, as long as you have the room, thats awesome. Others say no heavy equipment and literally they spell out, anything over 1500lbs.. which is rediculous because one of our little simplicity "garden tractor"diesel 4x4s, like a JD 1025 size machine, actually smaller slightly, is already too heavy then. I've had property managers chew me out about using it in the past, when it did perfect for big sidewalks with just a plow or loader to move heavy snow before the snow blowers went through.. others claim anything 4x4 will chew up the lawn edges.. maybe so, but i'll replace $30 of sod come april each year if thats what it takes. It comes a time, when so much extra money has to be spent to "compact" the machine, and then the machine isn't useful for much else than the glorified sidewalk rig used december-march each year.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

So, after a month or so, I got some information on the Holder X30 - List price is $72K for the tractor and the standard vacuum sweeper attachment.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Aerospace Eng said:


> So, after a month or so, I got some information on the Holder X30 - List price is $72K for the tractor and the standard vacuum sweeper attachment.


wow, cant believe its that much, where did you get the price from?

So probably another 7-8 k for a salter and plow ?


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

From Holder directly. That’s list, so actual out the door would probably be lower.

I thought it would be less due to its small size, but am not sure much of that is the sweeper.

I asked for a price without the vacuum sweeper, but they didn’t give me one.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Aerospace Eng said:


> The F3060 had a grass collector that had its own PTO and hydraulically dumped. I would think that that combination would work a drop spreader.


I really like the fseries kubota for their attachment offerings, my 2560 has the high dump vacuum system and much like regular tractors it uses the same hydraulic system as the transmission. The vacuum blower actually runs off the flywheel on the back with belts and a lever to activate the tension. Well thought out system. I use it and a f2100 to sweep the town sidewalks and blvds in the spring. I wouldn't hesitate to use them for sidewalk snow.


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## UpNorthMowing (Dec 30, 2017)

Aerospace Eng said:


> From Holder directly. That's list, so actual out the door would probably be lower.
> 
> I thought it would be less due to its small size, but am not sure much of that is the sweeper.
> 
> I asked for a price without the vacuum sweeper, but they didn't give me one.


ahh ok, was it from the dealer in Ontario ? or a local dealer.

Yeah holders are big bucks, almost all of the parts are bespoke, and they know that and charge a premium.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

No dealers in my area, so it was Holder itself, which is why they only quoted me list.


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## branhamt (Dec 21, 2006)

FredG said:


> One you could run remotely from inside a warm vehicle lol.


 Too many variables on some properties to just stay in the truck, but you could provide heat with this unit so that somebody would like to operate it and show up every time.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

branhamt said:


> somebody would like to operate it and show up every time.


Good luck...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

branhamt said:


> Too many variables on some properties to just stay in the truck, but you could provide heat with this unit so that somebody would like to operate it and show up every time.


Guess I'm fortunate\paying enough. I have 5 sidewalk crews and they always show up.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

branhamt said:


> Too many variables on some properties to just stay in the truck, but you could provide heat with this unit so that somebody would like to operate it and show up every time.


Little late to the party? No? I own two sidewalk machines and both have very good heat and not lets forget the fans.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Party????


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Party????


Ya I had to go back to the first page to figure out why I commented to answer his quote lol.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Aerospace Eng said:


> So, after a month or so, I got some information on the Holder X30 - List price is $72K for the tractor and the standard vacuum sweeper attachment.


Here is a link to download the state of minnesota pdf for pricing of a few holder tractors including the X30.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjACegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw0s5iBMOoVD16-2Ym8fRVxg


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I know this is an older thread, but thought this was the best fit.

I was out in Los Angeles this week, and stayed an extra day.

I got my ‘56 hyster going again, and figured I would post a picture here because I think it is the size of a good sidewalk machine, as I posted above. It is 36” wide, with a 45” wheelbase. I did a few donuts, and found it can turn keeping everything except the forks inside an 7’ circle.

I think something this size, with a plow/brush/blower on the front and a spreader on the back would work well. It would look kind of funny with a cab, but function over form.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Forgot the photos.










The phone number shows how old it is.


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