# Insurance question



## Chris Merchant (Feb 12, 2017)

Hey guys/girls,
I am currently trying to start a business (I know a little late in the season) and wondering what the difference is between General Liability Insurance, Business Insurance and Commercial Vehicle Insurance, I guess my question is more or less, does Business or GL insurance cover your vehicle(s) like commercial vehicle insurance does? If it helps as of now I only have 1 vehicle I would be using for the business it is not like I have an entire fleet can anyone help me with this? Do not want to spend money on insurances that are not needed. Thanks


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Commercial auto covers your work vehicle (or vehicle you're using for work) while driving. If you cause an accident while on the road. It works just like any other auto insurance you've ever had, except it covers your work vehicle. Example for snow removal would be, you slide on some ice into the car in front of you, or you hit a pole, etc.

GL covers damages you do to persons or property while "for hire". Example for snow removal would be, slip and falls, you slam your plow into a pole, you scratch up a brand new driveway, you take out a curb, etc. Mine also covers my equipment and tools for damages and theft.


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## Chris Merchant (Feb 12, 2017)

JMHConstruction said:


> Commercial auto covers your work vehicle (or vehicle you're using for work) while driving. If you cause an accident while on the road. It works just like any other auto insurance you've ever had, except it covers your work vehicle. Example for snow removal would be, you slide on some ice into the car in front of you, or you hit a pole, etc.
> 
> GL covers damages you do to persons or property while "for hire". Example for snow removal would be, slip and falls, you slam your plow into a pole, you scratch up a brand new driveway, you take out a curb, etc. Mine also covers my equipment and tools for damages and theft.


Ok thanks, so basically GL and business insurance would fall under the same category, and the commercial vehicle is like regular insurance, that being said do you carry both or does your GL cover it all? I only ask because 1 agent told me that the commercial vehicle would cover damage and theft to insured vehicles as well, but their outfit did not offer GL (GEICO) it is all just confusing to me and I am nervous an agent would just tell me stuff to get a new client. I have no problem spending money on things I need to effectively run a business but do not want to hold 2 policies or types of insurance when/if GL will cover all the same stuff as Comm. Vehicle.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I'll post in here so @Ben/Insurance can pop in if he can, but I'll also add to what you talked about in the PM.

You will need both GL and comm auto

Your comm auto will cover your normal auto type stuff. If your truck is stolen, gets hail damage, gets beaten with a bat by an angry customer (lol), gets in an accident, whatever that pertains to JUST the vehicle.

You GL will cover any work related accidents that aren't to your employees (work comp would cover) or your property (your shop or home insurance would cover). I also have riders that cover my equipment (not truck).

If you have employees you will also need to get work comp insurance. This covers injury to your employees. Some states and contracts may also require you to carry workers comp for yourself.

I would contact an agent or broker that will offer everything, and go from there. I'm not an agent, so don't take my word at 100%. I would recomment reaching out to a site sponsor @Ben/Insurance, he offers different things in many states, and has been very informative on here.


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## Chris Merchant (Feb 12, 2017)

JMHConstruction said:


> I'll post in here so @Ben/Insurance can pop in if he can, but I'll also add to what you talked about in the PM.
> 
> You will need both GL and comm auto
> 
> ...


Thank you, I will definitely reach out to Ben.


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

Hi. I spoke with Chris this morning and I'm sure I can help him. Thanks for thinking of me JMH.
Ben


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

So if my business vehicle is also my personal vehicle, the Commercial Auto insurance would be used while working or transporting my plow. When the plow is removed, I would be utilizing my standard auto insurance? I have 20 years of experience in plowing, but none as a business owner. I owned a plow truck for a few years, but it was covered under my employers insurance while I was working for him. I am considering purchasing another plow truck/personal truck and starting a business.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

LadderCo2 said:


> So if my business vehicle is also my personal vehicle, the Commercial Auto insurance would be used while working or transporting my plow. When the plow is removed, I would be utilizing my standard auto insurance? I have 20 years of experience in plowing, but none as a business owner. I owned a plow truck for a few years, but it was covered under my employers insurance while I was working for him. I am considering purchasing another plow truck/personal truck and starting a business.


You will want to get a commercial policy. Once the insurance finds out you're "for hire" they probably won't cover you. I use mine for both personal and commercial.

Before taking my advice I would talk with your insurance agent and accountant, because I am neither. What works for me may not work for you. That being said....

I lease my personal vehicle to my company. The company writes a check to me (personally) every month. I then pay my own truck payment. I had to show the legal lease to my insurance agent so I could get commercial auto.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

I only have experience as an independent contractor. I plowed with my personal vehicle and the contractor insured my vehicle on his commercial insurance while plowing for him. So this whole process is new to me.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

LadderCo2 said:


> I only have experience as an independent contractor. I plowed with my personal vehicle and the contractor insured my vehicle on his commercial insurance while plowing for him. So this whole process is new to me.


To me "independent contractors" provide their own insurance, GL and commercial vehicle.
I've never heard of insuring something that wasn't yours.
I can add my subcontractors as driver's on my commercial vehicle policy, but I own the equipment, and only if they provide my agent coi's for their GL policy.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

You won't have 2 policy's on your vehicle. You either have commercial insurance or you don't. Your GL will cover any property you damage or slip and fall. If you smash the benz your truck your commercial auto will take care of it. If you got a skid or loader on the job and you hit the Benz your GL will take care of it.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Thanks for the clairification Fred. Jonnie, I was covered under my employers policy while driving my own plow vehicle. He had the GL for his business and commercial insurance policy rider which covered me while working for him. I had to keep regular insurance on my truck to get from A to B and was not insured for side jobs (which I did not do).


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

A to B would have bit you in the ass if you had a accident, I believe. To use an employee's truck to plow snow, I think I would have to lease their truck from them for the season. Then add them to my list of drivers.

I've covered subs under my GL and my work comp, but I also deducted that from their pay. I'm not sure if I would have been able to cover their vehicle.

Are you wanting to start your own business? If so, write up a business plan. You need to have all your numbers in place, even if they're just estimates. That way you can meet with an insurace agent and they will give you what you need. I would also talk with an accountant, and see what business entity works best for your situation. I have an LLC, but many guys on here have an S Corp. The accountant can also let you know what's the best way to set up your vehicle.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LadderCo2 said:


> Thanks for the clairification Fred. Jonnie, I was covered under my employers policy while driving my own plow vehicle. He had the GL for his business and commercial insurance policy rider which covered me while working for him. I had to keep regular insurance on my truck to get from A to B and was not insured for side jobs (which I did not do).


Yes cover you for damage or slip and fall, I'm not so sure if you hit a car his insurance would do anything for you. There's a difference between commercial auto and GL.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

JMHConstruction said:


> A to B would have bit you in the ass if you had a accident, I believe. To use an employee's truck to plow snow, I think I would have to lease their truck from them for the season. Then add them to my list of drivers.
> 
> I've covered subs under my GL and my work comp, but I also deducted that from their pay. I'm not sure if I would have been able to cover their vehicle.
> 
> Are you wanting to start your own business?


Yes, it was reflected in a lower pay. This was over 10 years ago. I was told as long as I wasn't plowing and just transporting my blade to and from, that I wouldn't need Commercial Auto Insurance. I was covered with CAI when working.

I am not sure if I want to start a company. If I was doing it wrong then, I want to do it right now. I am older and they say you get wiser... Ideally if I could plow for a company in my own truck that would be nice. Right now I am a firefighter, and starting a company where I am 100% responsible for customers while having a work commitment isn't the best thing.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LadderCo2 said:


> Yes, it was reflected in a lower pay. This was over 10 years ago. I was told as long as I wasn't plowing and just transporting my blade to and from, that I wouldn't need Commercial Auto Insurance. I was covered with CAI when working.
> 
> I am not sure if I want to start a company. If I was doing it wrong then, I want to do it right now. I am older and they say you get wiser... Ideally if I could plow for a company in my own truck that would be nice. Right now I am a firefighter, and starting a company where I am 100% responsible for customers while having a work commitment isn't the best thing.


You could take a shot with your plow on without commercial auto, What I understand they will cover you even with the plow on once but you will get cancelled. I would want the commercial auto, If your credit is good and a good driving record you should be able to handle it if your bidding or getting paid a good sub rate. Good Luck


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Ok, so I should be looking at CAI for the truck. Should I do CAI seasonally?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LadderCo2 said:


> Ok, so I should be looking at CAI for the truck. Should I do CAI seasonally?


Yes if you could go seasonal? I'm not sure you can, Good question tho my rate don't change. My trucks aren't seasonal either tho. Of course if your policy allows seasonal go for it.

I know your a Fire Fighter but do you plan on a biz venture during the summer months, Towing besides personal I don't think your personal policy will cover you after a incident. Cancellation time again.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

I have no plans for a summer business. My old truck wasn't my daily driver, this one would be. I am looking toward retirement and I have done plowing for the past 20 years. I would just like to plow in my own comfortable truck again.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LadderCo2 said:


> I have no plans for a summer business. My old truck wasn't my daily driver, this one would be. I am looking toward retirement and I have done plowing for the past 20 years. I would just like to plow in my own comfortable truck again.


Well I'm thinking if your near retirement and no plans for anything but just plowing snow I would make like I want to use your plow for your own driveway but the plow don't come off easy. Technically the Guy your working for is responsible for any issues your truck or his. If he does not ask you for any liabilities your good to go.

Just get the minimal to cover you for when driving down the road. Give as little info when acquiring insurance for the plow. Your plowing your own drive. Good Luck


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

LadderCo2, Fred G is pretty much spot on here. A personal auto policy will not respond while you are conducting business with your truck. I can't tell you how often this comes up. If you are plowing with it and getting paid, make sure you have a commercial auto policy. It's very unlikely that your employer's commercial auto carrier will extend coverage to you and your vehicle if their is a claim, unless they are are large business with VERY customized insurance. Very unlikely. The same goes with the GL unless you are plowing for your employer. If you are plowing YOUR customer's property, your employer's GL will not respond. You would need your own GL (general liability) insurance for that and you must make sure the policy includes protection for snow removal. Very important. I don't know any insurance broker or carrier that will knowingly insure a vehicle seasonally. It's a money loser for us. 
Ben/Insurance


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

LadderCo2 said:


> Yes, it was reflected in a lower pay. This was over 10 years ago. I was told as long as I wasn't plowing and just transporting my blade to and from, that I wouldn't need Commercial Auto Insurance. I was covered with CAI when working.
> 
> I am not sure if I want to start a company. If I was doing it wrong then, I want to do it right now. I am older and they say you get wiser... Ideally if I could plow for a company in my own truck that would be nice. Right now I am a firefighter, and starting a company where I am 100% responsible for customers while having a work commitment isn't the best thing.


I have one sub who's GL doesn't cover him to plow with the blade on the truck, but he can use it (with the plow on) to pull the trailer with the tractor that he can use. We have the same insurance co. and agent, not that that matters,point being he set it up. so it's legit.
My old ins co. wrote me a rider for the snowplowing when I was starting out small. The rider was good for 6 months and then policy went back to personal vehicle. They wanted me to remove the plow frame from the truck for the other 6 months. An old style permanent mount, hence they are my old co.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Ok, I placed a quick call to my old business friend that I plowed for. He still owns his own plow business. It has been well over 10 years since we worked together. I started with him in the mid 2000's as an employee driving a front end loader at a truck terminal. When I decided to get my own truck, I had regular vehicle insurance on my truck. I was covered under his company's GL at the job site. Additionally, my truck was covered under his company's commercial auto insurance while working at the job site. When I left the site, I did not drop the plow anywhere else and I wasn't considered "conducting business". I showed up at the lot with a full tank of fuel, and he paid for the tank of fuel when the job was over. I was paid $50/hr back in the early 2000's. When I was an employee operating his equipment (end loader/salt truck) I was paid $25.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

jonniesmooth said:


> I have one sub who's GL doesn't cover him to plow with the blade on the truck, but he can use it (with the plow on) to pull the trailer with the tractor that he can use. We have the same insurance co. and agent, not that that matters,point being he set it up. so it's legit.
> My old ins co. wrote me a rider for the snowplowing when I was starting out small. The rider was good for 6 months and then policy went back to personal vehicle. They wanted me to remove the plow frame from the truck for the other 6 months. An old style permanent mount, hence they are my old co.


I got started in the snow removal business using my personal vehicle to tow a company trailer that had a company ATV on it. I did commercial and association sidewalks with an ATV while the owner did the lot plowing.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LadderCo2 said:


> I got started in the snow removal business using my personal vehicle to tow a company trailer that had a company ATV on it. I did commercial and association sidewalks with an ATV while the owner did the lot plowing.


Okay I get your upper post, Do You plan on working with your old friend again and is he willing to hire you under the same conditions?


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

FredG said:


> Okay I get your upper post, Do You plan on working with your old friend again and is he willing to hire you under the same conditions?


I am in the Western burns, and he is in the city...so really out of my way. He doesn't have the large account anymore, just a few commercial strip plaza's. His kids have grown up and they have graduated from shoveling...so unless he gets another large contract lot, no.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

$50 an hour in the 2000's?

No wonder he covered your insurance...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

$50 an hour to run my own truck or $25 an hour to sit in someone else's truck or machine. 

That's a hard decision...


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

I looked it as I wasn’t paying for the fuel or insurance either way. So why not enjoy the comfort of my own F350 Lariat package vs the heavily used XL Truck.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I am thinking of starting up plowing again... interested in a subcontracting job????????


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Philbilly2 said:


> I am thinking of starting up plowing again... interested in a subcontracting job????????


:laugh:


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> I am thinking of starting up plowing again... interested in a subcontracting job????????


Well I sure am not gonna drive to Sandwich! The truck terminal was less than 10 minutes from my house. I was not a subcontractor, I got paid as an employee...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:


Gonna get me some  ready for this one.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

LadderCo2 said:


> Well I sure am not gonna drive to Sandwich! The truck terminal was less than 10 minutes from my house. I was not a subcontractor, I got paid as an employee...


Understood...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

LadderCo2 said:


> Well I sure am not gonna drive to Sandwich! The truck terminal was less than 10 minutes from my house. I was not a subcontractor, I got paid as an employee...


So help me understand all this better...

You drove your own truck plowing snow for this guy.
He insured your truck and put fuel in it while you plowed.
He paid you $50/hr to plow with your truck.

But you were an employee not a subcontractor???


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Philbilly2 said:


> So help me understand all this better...
> 
> You drove your own truck plowing snow for this guy.
> He insured your truck and put fuel in it while you plowed.
> ...


And the problem with the whole thing is: if you gave this scenario to 10 different IRS agents, you would get 6 different answers as to what type of relationship they recognize it as.
The libertarian in me says, if the insurance co. Is cool with it, great, do whatever .
The liability issue is an insurance issue.
The business structure relationship is an IRS issue.
To paraphrase the website, " send us all the details of the relationship between the two parties. Who pays for what, who's responsible for what, who decides when you go to work, etc?And we will get back to you in 6-8 weeks.
I know there are threads with this topic.
There's a lot of gray area in snow removal.
Many of the contractor- sub relationships in the country might not meet the Government's smell test.
Like I said, if it works for the parties involved ,it's none of the Government's business.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

So the proper way to put my “tools” to work is to consult a lawyer, consult an accountant, form an LLC, open a business banking account, obtain general liability insurance, obtain commercial auto insurance, then be a subcontractor.

If that was the case for anyone with their own tools like my brother should sell his tools back to Snap On and rely on the dealership to provide. Or he should become a subcontractor for the dealership. As a former IBEW electrician I should just have shown up without a tool belt. 

The very few times a year that I ran my plow I would have a negative account balance because it would have been ate up by insurance, legal, and accounting fees. However with this method I could assist a company, earn a check, and make a few dollars.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

LadderCo2 said:


> So the proper way to put my "tools" to work is to consult a lawyer, consult an accountant, form an LLC, open a business banking account, obtain general liability insurance, obtain commercial auto insurance, then be a subcontractor.
> 
> If that was the case for anyone with their own tools like my brother should sell his tools back to Snap On and rely on the dealership to provide. Or he should become a subcontractor for the dealership. As a former IBEW electrician I should just have shown up without a tool belt.
> 
> The very few times a year that I ran my plow I would have a negative account balance because it would have been ate up by insurance, legal, and accounting fees. However with this method I could assist a company, earn a check, and make a few dollars.


Then you shouldn't have ran your plow.

Oh and yes, it sounds like your brother should do that.

Whether you're a contractor or a subcontractor, you should have the proper insurace and legal licenses. Even if you're operating under your own name, you still need insurance.

Even when I just did side work before I was working for myself I had GL insurance. You need to cover both yourself and your customers.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Every single auto mechanic owns his own tools and is employed by the shop he works for. He operates under the dealerships insurance. This is exactly what my relationship was. I operated under his conpany’s GL and Comm Auto, all approved by his insurance agent.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

LadderCo2 said:


> Every single auto mechanic owns his own tools and is employed by the shop he works for. He operates under the dealerships insurance. This is exactly what my relationship was. I operated under his conpany's GL and Comm Auto, all approved by his insurance agent.


Were you 1099'd or W2'd?


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

I got a W2


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

LadderCo2 said:


> Every single auto mechanic owns his own tools and is employed by the shop he works for. He operates under the dealerships insurance. This is exactly what my relationship was. I operated under his conpany's GL and Comm Auto, all approved by his insurance agent.


If all insurance parties were fine with the agreements, then I guess you're fine (I'm not an attorney).

You can't compare a mechanic using a socket set to a vehicle that weighs 10,000 pounds though. Those two need seperate insurances. I guess it sounds like you were covered.

I know my insurance agent would have seen having a plow on my truck, and getting paid to use it, I would have been considered for hire. That would have made a commercial policy a requirement. Maybe it's my agent that's an idiot (which is completely possible, I have other proof showing she was).

I guess if everyone was happy with it, have at it.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

For what it's worth, my CA policy does cover "hired" autos provided I elect to purchase the rider to do so.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

I removed the plow after I got home from his job site.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

John_DeereGreen said:


> For what it's worth, my CA policy does cover "hired" autos provided I elect to purchase the rider to do so.


Right. I'm more concerned with his personal policy.

Honestly, I was in a bad mood earlier (spent the day with family, and it didn't go well) and read LadderCo's post out of context. That was my fault.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ladder, Don't sweat it, If you find a contractor willing to let you work without liabilities go for it, His liability's are responsible for any issues that occur it is his contract and his liability's been turned into the client.

This has been argued many times, In the construction end of my business I subbed for much bigger contractors that my liabilities were not enough for the client to do on my own. I have worked these jobs with the inspectors and everybody else knew I was there.

This is typically not your best business practices. Some guys choose to close one eye to certain things. Again what you have to worry about is driving to jobs with the plow on in case you slide into somebody. And if you choose to close one eye to it is your business. Good Luck.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

LadderCo2 said:


> So the proper way to put my "tools" to work is to consult a lawyer, consult an accountant, form an LLC, open a business banking account, obtain general liability insurance, obtain commercial auto insurance, then be a subcontractor.
> 
> If that was the case for anyone with their own tools like my brother should sell his tools back to Snap On and rely on the dealership to provide. Or he should become a subcontractor for the dealership. As a former IBEW electrician I should just have shown up without a tool belt.
> 
> The very few times a year that I ran my plow I would have a negative account balance because it would have been ate up by insurance, legal, and accounting fees. However with this method I could assist a company, earn a check, and make a few dollars.


This is also the reason that in the early 2000's we were getting over $100 an hour to be a subcontractor.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Philbilly2 said:


> This is also the reason that in the early 2000's we were getting over $100 an hour to be a subcontractor.


Understood.

So pressing forward...develop the entire business as a sub for the business I am working with, including insurance... Guess I need to start networking the area for the options of sub work.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

FredG said:


> Ladder, Don't sweat it, If you find a contractor willing to let you work without liabilities go for it, His liability's are responsible for any issues that occur it is his contract and his liability's been turned into the client.


So as a sub GL may not be needed? It depends on the contract?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

LadderCo2 said:


> So as a sub GL may not be needed? It depends on the contract?


You will be hard pressed to find someone who will allow you to plow for them with out GL. Typically you will be required to have WC also...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

LadderCo2 said:


> Understood.
> 
> So pressing forward...develop the entire business as a sub for the business I am working with, including insurance... Guess I need to start networking the area for the options of sub work.


Given your general location, you should have zero issue finding a large outfit to sub for between now and next winter.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LadderCo2 said:


> So as a sub GL may not be needed? It depends on the contract?


I only say this because of the situation you were in with the Guy you were plowing with, If your going to move on your own you will need a GL with completed snow operations and WC to score any jobs. Most Contractors now are going to want you to have your own liabilities subbing.

The Contract has nothing to do with it unless it's your own. As a contractor if I let you plow on my job without liability's is my problem if a issue occurs not yours. Truthfully you will have a hard time subbing without your own liability's. In today's world most will not take the risk.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

For years, at least in construction, CG's were able to pay people as subs, and avoid having to be properly insured. This caused a lot of headaches down the line when issues arose and liability came into question. It also allowed GC's to avoid potential tax obligations, too. Most states have been cracking down on this as a "loophole" because of the potential liabilities should problems arise, both for/on the properties themselves, and for/on the physical well being of people working and living on said property.
While subcontracting is a popular option still in many fields (including plowing) the definition (and requirements to meet) of being a sub-contractor has gotten much stricter, in part because of how lax laws were previously. A lot of contractors and subs have had their careers ended because of "incidents" and finding themselves under/incorrectly insured.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Ok, so I guess the big question is roughly what am I looking at for insurance costs?


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

That's going to vary greatly. How many trucks/equipment? You can get a GL policy for a single truck starting around 600.00 a year or so. A workman's comp policy (that covers nobody) will cost you another grand.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Philbilly2 said:


> This is also the reason that in the early 2000's we were getting over $100 an hour to be a subcontractor.


There are still some people that are. Actually quite a bit more.


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## LadderCo2 (Dec 23, 2014)

One truck, just me. My first plow truck was an 86 F350 with the 460 V8. That thing was a beast..then I got a 2003 F250 6.0 Diesel for a plow truck and daily driver. I had issue upon issue and got rid of it 10 years ago, I haven't had a plow truck since...just employed for others. I have had 1/2 ton trucks in the meantime and am considering trading in my current truck for a 3/4 or 1 ton as a daily driver and plow truck. I haven't quite decided...I am here learning about the business side of the industry to decide if I should.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> That's going to vary greatly. How many trucks/equipment? You can get a GL policy for a single truck starting around 600.00 a year or so. A workman's comp policy (that covers nobody) will cost you another grand.


Why do you say it covers nobody? Since I still build in the field, I have myself covered in work comp. I can opt out though, and only have my employees covered. This would save quite a bit, but I'd rather have myself covered. As soon as I hang the bags up for good though, I'll opt out for myself.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I'd personally never buy another half-ton truck, even if I'm not plowing. I've got one half-ton truck left, but it's not for plowing, it's for my other business. But if/when I replace that one, it will be with another super duty. There's money to be made doing this. It's easier to do if you have your own contracts, but if you don't want to bother with that, you can still do well subbing if you sub for the right company.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

JMHConstruction said:


> Why do you say it covers nobody? Since I still build in the field, I have myself covered in work comp. I can opt out though, and only have my employees covered. This would save quite a bit, but I'd rather have myself covered. As soon as I hang the bags up for good though, I'll opt out for myself.


Because, as I stated, it covers absolutely nobody. It's required by the company I work for, and it's the bare minimum I can get to meet their requirements. Yes, I could spend more like you mentioned, to cover myself, but I'm sitting in a plow truck, and don't see a need for it. The last company I worked for required it as well, but if you were a 1 man show and made less than 15K (working for them) in a year, you could supposedly fall under their umbrella for it for coverage, but they hit you for a 5.00 per hour deduct from your wages for it.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

JMHConstruction said:


> Why do you say it covers nobody?


I could be wrong, but I think he means that at a minimum, one may have to carry comp to be covered for injuries that happen to other workers on site as the result of actions by the insured. (ie: you hit another sub on the same site. You don't need to be covered for injury by comp, but you have to carry it in case you injure someone else (that is working). Most, if not all Commercial Construction sites require that in my state. I'm sure it's similar for plowing.

Edit: day late and a dollar short...you beat me to it.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> Because, as I stated, it covers absolutely nobody. It's required by the company I work for, and it's the bare minimum I can get to meet their requirements. Yes, I could spend more like you mentioned, to cover myself, but I'm sitting in a plow truck, and don't see a need for it. The last company I worked for required it as well, but if you were a 1 man show and made less than 15K (working for them) in a year, you could supposedly fall under their umbrella for it for coverage, but they hit you for a 5.00 per hour deduct from your wages for it.


Gotcha. Thought you were talking about having WC for yourself, and not being covered. Didn't think about a minimum for a phantom employee.

That sucks! Talk about throwing money out the window! Gotta do what you gotta do to get the jobs though.

Now that you have another helping, do you have him covered? At least that way you money would atleast be going to something.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I call it the "cost of doing business tax".


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> Gotcha. Thought you were talking about having WC for yourself, and not being covered. Didn't think about a minimum for a phantom employee.
> 
> That sucks! Talk about throwing money out the window! Gotta do what you gotta do to get the jobs though.
> 
> Now that you have another helping, do you have him covered? At least that way you money would atleast be going to something.


Yes you pay the minimum, After so many years they could say you have to cover yourself, If your basically sole this is where casual employment comes in,


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

If a GC hired a sub without verifying his GL, or accepting that he had none. He is in essence " self insuring" the sub. Because his GL insurance won't pay to cover the damage/loss, he would be responsible to pay it.


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## the Suburbanite (Jan 27, 2018)

jonniesmooth said:


> If a GC hired a sub without verifying his GL, or accepting that he had none. He is in essence " self insuring" the sub. Because his GL insurance won't pay to cover the damage/loss, he would be responsible to pay it.


Not to mention, the sub AND the GC would likely be named as liable for any legal action. It would be up to the sub to prove he was hired on with the understanding that he was "covered" per agreement by the GC.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

The contractor that has the contract is going down first, If it's a big enough event the ambulance chasers are going after anybody involved including the client. How much risk you want to take is the question,

In today's world the correct answer is none,


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

So a question for you that are ghosting an employee...

What is the class code that you are ghosting in and how much is the annual payroll???


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

That's a word that I would never use. That's an IRS red flag.


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