# First commercial bid



## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm one of 3 submitting a bid so wanted to be as competitive as possible and get some input from you guys. It's not a big site but it's a start. It's a blacktop parking lot with 9 spots. Measurements are about 50' x 80' that I can cover with my ATV plow set up and another 70' x 3' walkway that I have to shovel. Also will be laying salt. It's a pretty symmetrical rectangular lot where I can push banks to either side of the short sides of the lot. One long side backs into the building and the other backs into a semi-busy street. What do you guys think for both a per push as well a seasonal rate?? The owner is only asking for a per push bid but figured if I submit a seasonal one too, it will give the owner something else to think about. Season may go as late as April this year. Thanks guys. New to the forum but I've been lurking for a while and have learned a ton so I respect all your input. 

Thanks again,
Rich


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

I forgot to add, this site is quite a ways away from my route. At this point though, I don't mind traveling to the site if it means expanding my book of business to include commercial (and another geographical area).


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## myzx6 (Nov 17, 2013)

I think the big question is, why is somewhere looking for a new contractor in the end of January. Did they have a bad previous guy or did he drop them cause they don't pay???


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

The owner just acquired the property. It was in real estate escrow since Sept and just closed a three weeks ago. He was clearing it with his 36" snowblower but we've had a lot of windy days and the snowblower was no match.


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## Glenn Lawn Care (Sep 28, 2009)

You're going to be plowing it with an ATV?.... good luck.


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Glenn Lawn Care;1735515 said:


> You're going to be plowing it with an ATV?


You betcha!


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## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

I would recommend charging per push. How long do you think it would take you to do all that?


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Sounds like$100 per visit and 25 for the walk per visit 
But I have a truck and you have ATV. So not sure be a profit for you with ATV


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm thinking it will take me no more than hour with shoveling and salting once I actually get there. It's probably a good 30 minutes from my route.

I could be profitable at $100 per push


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## snopushin ford (Feb 20, 2010)

If I only had a ATV there is no way I would try to do anything commercial. What happens if the atv breaks and by the time you fix it there is a foot of heavy snow on the lot, or big drifts?? Do you have access to a truck? How do you move the ATV around?


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

snopushin ford;1736628 said:


> What happens if the atv breaks and by the time you fix it there is a foot of heavy snow on the lot, or big drifts??


I plow it with my ATV.



snopushin ford;1736628 said:


> Do you have access to a truck? How do you move the ATV around?


Yes, that's how I get my ATV around.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

whitegoldrider;1737068 said:


> I plow it with my ATV.
> 
> Yes, that's how I get my ATV around.


You do have Commercial Insurance

Say if I was you I stick to driveways if all I had was a ATV I wouldnt even think about plowing lots

Save your $$ on driveways and Buy you a plow for the truck then jump on lots


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Antlerart06;1737085 said:


> You do have Commercial Insurance


Not yet, remember, this is my first (potentially) commercial gig but I have gotten a couple quotes and waiting on return calls from others.



Antlerart06;1737085 said:


> Say if I was you I stick to driveways if all I had was a ATV I wouldnt even think about plowing lots


I will agree that I might be over my head here but we all had to start somewhere, right? I felt the same way when I started taking residential gigs but still pushing snow 4 seasons later.



Antlerart06;1737085 said:


> Save your $$ on driveways and Buy you a plow for the truck then jump on lots


I didn't go out looking for this commercial gig. This was a referral from one of my residential gigs and I'm seeing how far I can get with it. For now, this commercial gig will just be a see how it goes deal. It's kinda like the chicken/egg question. Buy truck to get commercial gigs or see if commercial is my thing then buy a truck. I think I'm in the company of those that would go with the former but money ain't cheap!


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## CowboysLC_DE (Aug 17, 2013)

Don't put in a bid with an atv. But if that's what you really want to do then you better double so the drive is worth it. In the time it takes you to drive to and from the job most plow guys would have made $100.

Also, how are you going to stay on top of the snow if your wasting a couple hours every storm to drive there? Something to think about.

Michael


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

CowboysLC_DE;1737127 said:


> In the time it takes you to drive to and from the job most plow guys would have made $100.


No sweat off my back. Ya, let those other guys make their $100. I'm still getting $100 that I never got before.



CowboysLC_DE;1737127 said:


> Also, how are you going to stay on top of the snow if your wasting a couple hours every storm to drive there?


It's 30 minutes one way so 1 hour not 2 but 1 hour to do the job and that could be 2 hours including travel time. But this is a problem? I have a 3-3.5 hour route now and can keep up fine. Are you talking about clean ups or returns? My residential clients won't pay me twice for coming out the same day for the same storm so I don't do it and they don't ask. Good way to think about it for the commercial bid though…thanks.


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Just wondering what kinda machine you guys think I plow with? I'm not using a riding lawn mower jerry-rigged with a 24" blade using a stick to raise/lower the blade. I have 400cc suzuki eiger workhorse 4x4 with a state plow and added downforce with flaps and operated with a winch. I even have the push bar extension which allows me to push the tops of snow banks making it possible to actually move banks back. And for those who think it's "only a 400cc", I will buy new snow tires for better traction before I spend a dime to add more horsepower to my machine. Maybe by "whipping mine out" it will end the "don't submit a commercial bid using JUST an ATV" comments? or not….


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

whitegoldrider;1737177 said:


> Just wondering, what kinda machine do you guys think I plow with? I'm not using a riding lawn mower jerry-rigged with a 24" blade using a stick to raise/lower the blade. I have 400cc suzuki workhorse with a state plow and added downforce with flaps and operated with a winch. And for those who think it's "only a 400cc", I will buy new snow tires before I invest in those crazy mods to add more horsepower to my machine. Maybe by "whipping mine out" it will end the "don't submit a commercial bid using JUST an ATV" comments? or not….


I have 2001 500 HO sportsman with 58'' plow and can put my rear trip blade on and I still wouldnt do it unless Im behind and my sidewalk crew needs something to do but that was one time last year and was lot half size then one you wanting bid on
truck takes 15mins to plow it took ATV 1 hr plow it at 6'' of snow.

So price it right if going use a ATV on it


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## Fannin76 (Jan 1, 2014)

I know this will be your first "commercial" property, but if you plow anything for money you need business insurance.I wouldn't attempt it with an ATV I would just try to pick up 3-5 more drives and make the same money with out the drive. sell the ATV and buy a plow truck off Craig's list


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

whitegoldrider;1737177 said:


> I even have the push bar extension which allows me to push the tops of snow banks making it possible to actually *move banks back*.Maybe by "whipping mine out" it will end the "don't submit a commercial bid using JUST an ATV" comments? or not….


So do you offer snow stacking :laughing:

It's still an ATV, new tires, push bar or whatever else you add it is still JUST an ATV.



whitegoldrider;1737152 said:


> No sweat off my back. Ya, let those other guys make their $100. I'm still getting $100 that I never got before.


This is what's wrong with commercial pricing. It costs money to plow snow, the guy with INSURANCE and the proper equipment bids X and you come along and say "well that's $100 more than I had" 

What if it costs you $120 to service the property?

To your original question $175 per push, walks and salt included or $3,650 for the season.


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Antlerart06;1737204 said:


> I have 2001 500 HO sportsman with 58'' plow and can put my rear trip blade on and I still wouldnt do it unless Im behind and my sidewalk crew needs something to do but that was one time last year and was lot half size then one you wanting bid on
> truck takes 15mins to plow it took ATV 1 hr plow it at 6'' of snow.


Shoot, if I had a truck or two and a sidewalk crew, I wouldn't do it with an ATV either Thumbs Up but you got 'er done right? Not saying I'll do it as fast as a truck but will get done at the end of the day. So if all you had was an ATV, been doing residential for 4 years and someone calls you on a referral to see if you would do their lot that is 30 minutes away from your route and gets you thinking about maybe venturing out to a bigger operation, would you bid on it or at least ask around to see if you could make money on it? That's what I'm trying to find out here. I'm getting no's and some heck-no's and couple suggestions on how to price it. Thanks guys. It's all going into consideration. Keep them coming, please.


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

jrs.landscaping;1737297 said:


> So do you offer snow stacking :laughing:
> 
> It's still an ATV, new tires, push bar or whatever else you add it is still JUST an ATV.


I'm laughing WITH you on this one. As my 5 year-old would say…ofcourse not silly. LOL. I may push (pun intended…haha) the limits on what I can do with my ATV but I know I have limits. LOL



jrs.landscaping;1737297 said:


> This is what's wrong with commercial pricing. It costs money to plow snow, the guy with INSURANCE and the proper equipment bids X and you come along and say "well that's $100 more than I had"
> 
> What if it costs you $120 to service the property?


No argument here. Not going to do it if I lose money but if I make money, that's $100 to go towards that extra cost for doing the gig…I know I'm not pocketing a benjamin.



jrs.landscaping;1737297 said:


> To your original question $175 per push, walks and salt included or $3,650 for the season.


Awesome thanks!

To address the insurance questions, I have an llc with my handyman service business and I have gl coverage but I'm talking it over with the quotes I'm getting to see if it could stand to be raised. What I don't have is commercial auto since I use my personal vehicle to get to jobs.

Sorry, maybe I should have spelled this all out in the beginning but didn't want to bore everyone with the details. I'm here to learn and get advice so any other info you guys need, just ask.

Thanks


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

whitegoldrider;1737365 said:


> Shoot, if I had a truck or two and a sidewalk crew, I wouldn't do it with an ATV either Thumbs Up but you got 'er done right? Not saying I'll do it as fast as a truck but will get done at the end of the day. So if all you had was an ATV, been doing residential for 4 years and someone calls you on a referral to see if you would do their lot that is 30 minutes away from your route and gets you thinking about maybe venturing out to a bigger operation, would you bid on it or at least ask around to see if you could make money on it? That's what I'm trying to find out here. I'm getting no's and some heck-no's and couple suggestions on how to price it. Thanks guys. It's all going into consideration. Keep them coming, please.


I would say no I be adding drives Less drive time more money there is Its like mowing lawn I have it set up where I can mow all day with out moving the truck on some days of the week
Back in 80s I had over 100 drives I might have 10+ on one street The more you can get done in one hour the more you can make.

I could be wrong I don't know what its like starting out with ATV so


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Antlerart06;1737379 said:


> I could be wrong I don't know what its like starting out with ATV so


No wrong or right here…just trying to get the lay of the land. Great input though…we're getting somewhere now! Thanks

Off to clear some of these drifts. Hope I don't get hung up on those scary 12" ones Thumbs Up Just kidding!!!


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

whitegoldrider;1737365 said:


> Shoot, if I had a truck or two and a sidewalk crew, I wouldn't do it with an ATV either Thumbs Up but you got 'er done right? Not saying I'll do it as fast as a truck but will get done at the end of the day. So if all you had was an ATV, been doing residential for 4 years and someone calls you on a referral to see if you would do their lot that is 30 minutes away from your route and gets you thinking about maybe venturing out to a bigger operation, would you bid on it or at least ask around to see if you could make money on it? That's what I'm trying to find out here. I'm getting no's and some heck-no's and couple suggestions on how to price it. Thanks guys. It's all going into consideration. Keep them coming, please.


I would do it. Though I would charge what a plow truck would charge. To do so is low balling, and losing money by leaving money on the table.

I got a commercial account by recommendation. First year I did not charge enough. Raised them big time second year and still have them.

I did not seek them out commercial because I have two 2-stage blowers. And I told them when they called and asked if I do commercial. They said when they were younger they did it themselves with a snow blower.

They fired their plow guy because he busted up their coble stone curb big time. And never fixed it.

The job entails a 88' x 11' driveway with a 50' x 50' parking lot in the rear. My Jeep TJ unlimited just can make a u turn. So I can see where a full size pickup with a plow is not going to have enough room to maneuver.




whitegoldrider;1737378 said:


> Not going to do it if I lose money but if I make money, that's $100 to go towards that extra cost for doing the gig…I know I'm not pocketing a benjamin.
> 
> To address the insurance questions, I have an llc with my handyman service business and I have gl coverage but I'm talking it over with the quotes I'm getting to see if it could stand to be raised. What I don't have is commercial auto since I use my personal vehicle to get to jobs.


I do not know of any commercial job going for $100.

Usually GL does not cover snow removal. A lot of people starting out do not get commercial auto insurance. They are trying to save a dime. You get in an accident parked at a worksite, driving to or from a work site, can cause your Ins Co to drop you and not be liable if you get sued.


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses. The bid is in. Oddly enough, one of the bids dropped out because he didn't want to do any shoveling. Go figure...


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## vlc (Dec 8, 2012)

Some guys don't like to shovel or don't have the extra help. I offer shoveling at all my accounts for an extra fee. 

Question... Is the 30 minute drive on a clear, dry day? Or is it 30 minutes on snow covered roads?


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Conditions are factored into the 30 minute estimate…as best as I could anyways. These country roads by me can get tricky but luckily don't have to spend much time on them to get to this particular site.


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

whitegoldrider;1738553 said:


> Conditions are factored into the 30 minute estimate…as best as I could anyways. These country roads by me can get tricky but luckily don't have to spend much time on them to get to this particular site.


Gas alone on a full hour of driving. That's going to be what, 40-50 miles total? How much gas will an ATV use running for over an hour?

So now your 4 hour route is 6.5 hours? So this one job should account for 35% of your maintenance, car insurance, deprecation.

I think at $100 it's Generous to say you will be working for free, you will probably be paying him $50 per visit...

You cannot do this job profitably, without charging 3x the market rate. I would pass entirely, rather than come across with an outrageous quote that will likely cause bad feedback to the refering customer. Just say "thank you, it's too far off our route to be a possibility to us at this time."

And for the love of god, buy a toro 721 and never use that shovel for more than 2 minutes again.


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## BossPlowMaster (Aug 10, 2013)

whitegoldrider;1737120 said:


> Not yet, remember, this is my first (potentially) commercial gig but I have gotten a couple quotes and waiting on return calls from others.


No insurance means no gig.... someone could wipe you out entirely .... your family and everything ..... they wont let me put an ATV on my commercial insurance until i pay an extra $1500 per year.


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## GreenAcresMike (Nov 21, 2013)

You need commercial insurance asap even just for residential drives, as long as you are making money in return for snow removal you must have insurance. Even if you know the owner really well he or she will be fighting against you in the court room because the one customer or worker who fell or a car to slide into another because you didn't have the lot cleared fast enough is fighting against them and no one wants to loose their ass. So I guess my advice is get commercial insurance even if you don't get the contract. Its your choice what to push the snow with but bigger jobs mean bigger equipment. The guy with a 9' blade can clear more snow accumulation faster and potentially with a cheaper price because of it. ATVs are great for small drives but don't quite have the size to push a 1' deep drift. Just a few things to think about.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

BossPlowMaster;1738814 said:


> No insurance means no gig.... someone could wipe you out entirely .... your family and everything ..... they wont let me put an ATV on my commercial insurance until i pay an extra $1500 per year.


1500 extra for you have a ATV on your Insurance WoW 
Is the ATV in your name or the business name


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## Greenstar lawn (Jan 18, 2009)

When I started out I used an atv. I did a industrial building and it was fine until the snow got to high. Had to call a company a few times to do it. I hated towing it around and I also hated freezing my butt off. I stuck to driveways after that and then bought a truck with plow. So much easier


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## BossPlowMaster (Aug 10, 2013)

Antlerart06;1738844 said:


> 1500 extra for you have a ATV on your Insurance WoW
> Is the ATV in your name or the business name


I didn't put it on my policy as I bought a tractor and stuff to replace the ATV and it only costed me $300 per year to add that because there is less liability with a tractor. It would have been under my commercial business insurance


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

BossPlowMaster;1738932 said:


> I didn't put it on my policy as I bought a tractor and stuff to replace the ATV and it only costed me $300 per year to add that because there is less liability with a tractor. It would have been under my commercial business insurance


Ok 
Whos name was on the ATV title

Tell how you think a tractor is less liability then a ATV


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## BossPlowMaster (Aug 10, 2013)

Antlerart06;1738946 said:


> Ok
> Whos name was on the ATV title
> 
> Tell how you think a tractor is less liability then a ATV


Mine and it's because a four wheeler goes faster than a tractor and because it is a "recreational vehicle" and isn't part of the landscaping policy


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

BossPlowMaster;1738948 said:


> Mine and it's because a four wheeler goes faster than a tractor and because it is a "recreational vehicle" and isn't part of the landscaping policy


There is your answer Why it was going cost you 1500 for year 
My ATV is listed under my landscape policy. Title in my Company's name
Why I pay $175 extra for the year for it and only used in the business.
I pay more on a tractor since its on the road and if I hit something will do more damage then a ATV. Even my Skidsteer has more liability then the ATV.
What size of a tractor you running?


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## Matt994 (Nov 8, 2012)

whitegoldrider;1737120 said:


> Not yet, remember, this is my first (potentially) commercial gig but I have gotten a couple quotes and waiting on return calls from others.
> 
> I will agree that I might be over my head here but we all had to start somewhere, right? I felt the same way when I started taking residential gigs but still pushing snow 4 seasons later.


I would go for it, its a great, cost effective start.

i started with my atv doing driveways and a Government office last year becuse good luck gettin insurance on a Plow truck at 17. anyways it went well, i even drove the atv to the lot and driveways because they were all within 5km (3mi). just dress warm, wear a helmet, and make sure you have an amber light on to make the cops happy.


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Well that's the end of that. At first, the guy wanted me to split the contract with a 2-man snowblowing team. They would handle anything under 3" and I would come out after 4". Told him I could do that but would have to raise my bid because my current bid was for pushes that took 15 minutes and for those that took an hour or more. If I'm only out there for 4+ inches, it would always be an hour or more job. He didn't like that. Then he asked if I would just plow half the lot and shovel half the walk. I said what if someone slips on the half that I didn't clear? I would be screwed. He was trying to save a buck, nice guy but no thanks.


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## Fannin76 (Jan 1, 2014)

What were your actual numbers?


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Wow…you reeeally want me to whip it out…LOL. Let's just say that based on my cost and assumptions and how long the season would/could/might go, I would have been in the black about halfway through the rest of the season.


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## Fannin76 (Jan 1, 2014)

whitegoldrider;1739817 said:


> Wow…you reeeally want me to whip it out…LOL. Let's just say that based on my cost and assumptions and how long the season would/could/might go, I would have been in the black about halfway through the rest of the season.


who cares if people know what you are charging there's plenty of work for everyone. and I'm in Ohio....I just want to see how cheap this business owner was


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

Sorry man, was just cya on my part. My wife is a paralegal and I hear things so paranoia ya know…? But to answer your question about the biz owner. He was really trying to keep his cost under $2k. I don't think it was so much him being cheap but rather he just didn't budget for snow removal when he set out in the summer to buy the building. He is a start up advertising company (signs and store displays) and the worst winter we've had in a while has just thrown him for a loop. Hope that helps.


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## MattR (Jan 4, 2009)

That business owner did you a HUGE favor. Just the drive time (round trip) alone would be costing you money that could be made elsewhere. It doesn't matter to me what you charge for residentials, yet just think of what you quoted that business owner and the time it would have taken from the time you leave to go there until you arrive back home, then figure out how long the residentials that are within your route and what you would make on them during that same amount of time. I highly doubt you would be gaining anything by plowing that business. 

Good luck on your plow business though.


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## whitegoldrider (Jan 24, 2014)

I wish I could get more residentials along my route but that well is pretty much dried up. I live in a small country town. People either have farms and have tractors or their own ATVs and plow themselves or they have been neighbors with the farmer for years and pay them with some warm biscuits and hot cup of coffee. So I either start a new route or keep plugging along with my current route. Of course if I started a new route, that could have meant maybe buying a truck and, again, I'm just not sure I'm ready for that this year. So ya, that biz owner might have done me a huge favor. 

I get where you're coming from though and thanks for the well wishes. Good luck to you too!


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

whitegoldrider;1740524 said:


> I wish I could get more residentials along my route but that well is pretty much dried up. I live in a small country town. People either have farms and have tractors or their own ATVs and plow themselves or they have been neighbors with the farmer for years and pay them with some warm biscuits and hot cup of coffee. So I either start a new route or keep plugging along with my current route. Of course if I started a new route, that could have meant maybe buying a truck and, again, I'm just not sure I'm ready for that this year. So ya, that biz owner might have done me a huge favor.
> 
> I get where you're coming from though and thanks for the well wishes. Good luck to you too!


For what you have you need to look at places that has more walks very small lots Like a retirement complex


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## forkicks (Dec 28, 2012)

Ok I know this bid is over and you have gotten all kinds of reply's. But following up on how it ended and what you stated were the details to the deciding factor. The new owner did not budget that much. He is in advertising. Do you see where I'm going already. In this economy sometimes you have to get creative to make money. Maybe you could have worked out a deal with him where he could pay half in cash and the other portion in advertising for your business. Could have been a win win on both sides also you could have made a friend in business that would also pass your name around as being helpful and creative. I know some guy's say it's cash only no bartering. Well that's all well and good but sometimes bartering if you can do it may lead to a much more lucrative future. It never hurts to work with someone who is new in the business and trying to make it. You never know how successful they may end up being and hopefully remember you. Also never judge a book by it's cover because underestimating someone or thinking less of someone because of what there position may appear to be is a mistake a lot of guys and women make. Do you understand what I mean? Also good advise from others were never spread yourself too thin. always think of the worse case scenario and if you think you have the ability to pull out of it than you are ok. Because nothing will give you a bad reputation quicker than making a bunch of commitments that you can not keep.


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