# Policy on hitting mailboxes and other mistakes



## GimmeSnow!! (Oct 23, 2008)

I had a guy hit three mailboxes in one night a few years ago. He kept telling me he was going to go out and fix them but never showed up. Finally I had another employee go fix the boxes and it took him 20 hours to figure it all out. I had to pay him $400 plus $200 in materials. I made a rule after that. I will pay for the mailbox but you have to fix it on your own time which I think is fair. 
One of my drivers hit a mailbox the other night and I told him he would have to go fix it on his own time after he gets sleep. Then he called me when he was on a commercial property and asked me where to put the snow. I was explaining it to him but he wasn't getting it. I told him to go in and talk to the manager as I knew him well. The employee put two medium sized piles of snow in front of their loading bays. The customer called me the next day and said he needed it fixed asap. I got ahold of the employee and told him he needed to go to the customer and fix the problem. it took him 10 hours to dig the bay out. Now he wants me to to pay him $240 to fix a mistake that could have been prevented in the first place and then he wants me to send another person with him to help fix the mailbox. I was starting to suspect the employee of milking the clock mid summer and kept making comments that the times are too long and he needs to get back on track. If I pay him his plowing wage to go fix all of his mistakes after all of the snow is done that just means that he gets more money and I feel like there is no incentive for him to not be careless. I'm curious to see what everyone elses policy is on this.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I would never pay them their time to fix the mistakes. Period. Yes paying for materials yourself seems ok but would be dependent on if I found that it was because of negligence on the drivers part. Hitting 3 mailboxes in a single night seems pretty negligent to me, bordering on intentional. But I'm a real hard a$$ to work for and don't let any of my guys take advantage of me. I am however more than fair according to my longtime employees who have a good work ethic and common sense. And I wouldn't pay him to move the snow from the loading bay either. I give everyone a copy of the satellite image of the property with the owners/managers notes on exactly where they want snow piled. So no excuses with me. If your not doing that you may want to consider it. My customers really appreciate that I hand them the satellite image and ask them to mark approved locations, makes sure everyone is on the same page before the first snow flies.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

As far as the first guy hitting three mail boxes. He'd have been fired right then. Legally you have to pay them for all their time, unless you have a previous agreement on such matters. Now I'm not busting, but before he got to the lot, the specifics on where the the snow was plowed to , etc. Should have been gone over. But any person should know not to dump the snow in front of the loading dock


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Point system needs to be put in place


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

When I had the town bid contract. I swear the one year it always snowed on recycle night. If its in the road its fair game.


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## Jeep_thing (Mar 3, 2014)

Guess it depends on the supply/demand of plow operators, is it hard to find a decent guy? Or do you have to settle for a warm body?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Jesus... plowed A LOT of streets for citys and townships... I have zero mailboxes to my name... 


Was I doing something wrong?????


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Never looking back is the right thing to do...lol


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

You are probably not going like this but here it goes. Where is the management? Employee asks a question and you tell him to talk to someone else? Old saying, Don't let the employees run the company. You are the one letting them milk the clock. 20 hours to fix 3 mailboxes is absurd. To me it sounds you have let the employees get away with everything and anything now you want to change it, well good luck. 

Remember employees are only as good as the training you give them. Yes some can't be trained, I have dealt with my fair share of them, and those are the ones you need to replace.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

kimber750 said:


> You are probably not going like this but here it goes. Where is the management? Employee asks a question and you tell him to talk to someone else? Old saying, Don't let the employees run the company. You are the one letting them milk the clock. 20 hours to fix 3 mailboxes is absurd. To me it sounds you have let the employees get away with everything and anything now you want to change it, well good luck.
> 
> Remember employees are only as good as the training you give them. Yes some can't be trained, I have dealt with my fair share of them, and those are the ones you need to replace.


I wasn't thinking in those aspects when I replied. I couldn't agree more with this statement. Thumbs Up


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

My father used to say..."There are no bad employees, just bad managers.."


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> My father used to say..."There are no bad employees, just bad managers.."


Back in the day, that may have been the case, nowadays with millenials and youngers, not so true.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

GimmeSnow!! said:


> I had a guy hit three mailboxes in one night a few years ago. He kept telling me he was going to go out and fix them but never showed up. Finally I had another employee go fix the boxes and it took him 20 hours to figure it all out. I had to pay him $400 plus $200 in materials. I made a rule after that. I will pay for the mailbox but you have to fix it on your own time which I think is fair.
> One of my drivers hit a mailbox the other night and I told him he would have to go fix it on his own time after he gets sleep. Then he called me when he was on a commercial property and asked me where to put the snow. I was explaining it to him but he wasn't getting it. I told him to go in and talk to the manager as I knew him well. The employee put two medium sized piles of snow in front of their loading bays. The customer called me the next day and said he needed it fixed asap. I got ahold of the employee and told him he needed to go to the customer and fix the problem. it took him 10 hours to dig the bay out. Now he wants me to to pay him $240 to fix a mistake that could have been prevented in the first place and then he wants me to send another person with him to help fix the mailbox. I was starting to suspect the employee of milking the clock mid summer and kept making comments that the times are too long and he needs to get back on track. If I pay him his plowing wage to go fix all of his mistakes after all of the snow is done that just means that he gets more money and I feel like there is no incentive for him to not be careless. I'm curious to see what everyone elses policy is on this.


So you're going to fire a guy that screwed up AND not pay him for the time on the clock.

He gets pissed, goes to DOL\Wage and Labor and you get an audit of everything. Then you get fined and pay the employee for his time anyways.

You can NOT withhold pay for mistakes. Unless you have an agreement signed by them, and their pay can not go below minimum wage. You MUST pay them for the time on the clock.

Like it or not, it's the law.

And it's you're fault for the pile being in the wrong place, not his.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So you're going to fire a guy that screwed up AND not pay him for the time on the clock.
> 
> He gets pissed, goes to DOL\Wage and Labor and you get an audit of everything. Then you get fined and pay the employee for his time anyways.
> 
> ...


Agreed 100%


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Ya we print out full size pictures of everylot and draw exact spots where snow can and cant go. Not his fault at all for not knowing where to put piles. And for 200$ ill fix your mailboxes in 2 hours


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Your employ is your agent.
You are responsibel for the mailboxes.
And the snow.

Maybe you need to train your guys better?

Now you can get insurance for this.
Yup, if you wanted it.
Yes, it will cost Ya


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Back in the day, that may have been the case, nowadays with millenials and youngers, not so true.


I figured you would take offense to that...Since your a marginal manager...:terribletowel:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> I figured you would take offense to that...Since your a marginal manager...:terribletowel:


Am two.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Managing mistakes or not, anybody that pushes snow in front of loading docks ought to be fired.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I think what the sayings means is that as a good manager you fire the bad employees which makes you a good manager. Keep them around and your a bad manager...it's never the employees fault they're stupid... it's Marks.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Not training your employes...
Makes you not as good at managing your employes as you think.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> Managing mistakes or not, anybody that pushes snow in front of loading docks ought to be fired.


What if this was the guys first time plowing? Manager threw him in a truck and told him to have at it. What if the guy he talked to told him to put it there? I know there are lot of "what ifs". If the guy was trained and still plowed like an idiot yes fire him. As much as people what to think they can just jump in a truck and plow and be good at it, it just doesn't happen that way. I went through half dozen drivers before finding one that was trainable.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

kimber750 said:


> What if this was the guys first time plowing? Manager threw him in a truck and told him to have at it. What if the guy he talked to told him to put it there? I know there are lot of "what ifs". If the guy was trained and still plowed like an idiot yes fire him. As much as people what to think they can just jump in a truck and plow and be good at it, it just doesn't happen that way. I went through half dozen drivers before finding one that was trainable.


Truth! To us it seems just like common sense. Since we are now running businesses and doing it ourselves we were the trainable ones, and had common sense. I too thought that snow and ice management was just common sense and that anyone would know how not to be an idiot. I quickly learned that apparently it's not just common sense because like Kimber I go through many people to find one good one


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

We all no the :terribletowel:'s we hire need a Chief, But to knock down a mailbox and then repeat it I don't think I need him. As far as fixing it he won't have the brains if he knocked it down. The piles, A guy that's sent to a job and don't know where to put the snow should never been turned loose. I understand some need some degree of training, I will say this again, The laid off heavy highway guys Labors, operators, etc. are the guys to catch. They no about traffic and running trucks and equipment in small area's with Jersey barriers separating them from traffic. All are safety minded or probably be dead or killed somebody else.

You may need some creative payroll, LOL


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

You guys have valid points. But nobody trained me. And no, I wasn't the best operator when I started, but somehow I always knew not to fill in loading docks or handicapped parking spaces, or push against dumpsters. It just seemed to make sense to me.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

JustJeff said:


> You guys have valid points. But nobody trained me. And no, I wasn't the best operator when I started, but somehow I always knew not to fill in loading docks or handicapped parking spaces, or push against dumpsters. It just seemed to make sense to me.


You would think,
But no.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Defcon 5 said:


> I figured you would take offense to that...Since your a marginal manager...:terribletowel:


He follows the employee handbook his wife created, lucky for him it's a pop up book with a lot of pictures.......


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> He follows the employee handbook his wife created, lucky for him it's a pop up book with a lot of pictures.......


You say that like it's a bad thing.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You say that like it's a bad thing.


As long as it works and there's no test.... roll wit it.....


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JustJeff said:


> You guys have valid points. But nobody trained me. And no, I wasn't the best operator when I started, but somehow I always knew not to fill in loading docks or handicapped parking spaces, or push against dumpsters. It just seemed to make sense to me.


That's because you were blessed with common sense,


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

JustJeff said:


> Managing mistakes or not, anybody that pushes snow in front of loading docks ought to be fired.


But he's a millenial or metrosexual, or whatever they're called these days. He thought the loading dock was a receptacle for the snow. It's an honest mistake for someone who's on his cell texting and smoking a cigarette while working.

It's in the handbook... it's their right...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

My policy with employees is, damage caused by negligence it's their problem. This is only if its a continual problem over a 3month period of time, each time they are talked to and the incident was documented. The 3rd time they have the choice of being fired or making it right.
They know this going into the job and I figured if they're signing on after knowing that they'll be good employees and it weeds oot the bad ones.
I've only had to do this once and he quit.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BUFF said:


> My policy with employees is, damage caused by negligence it's their problem. This is only if its a continual problem over a 3month period of time, each time they are talked to and the incident was documented. The 3rd time they have the choice of being fired or making it right.
> They know this going into the job and I figured if they're signing on after knowing that they'll be good employees and it weeds oot the bad ones.
> I've only had to do this once and he quit.


That's fair, They no what they are getting into when they join your crew. My biggest issue's are guys chasing windrows. It's just a waste of time and money. I guess some will never learn or just going to take sometime. Some can plow a parking area in 30min others take 45min.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> Jesus... plowed A LOT of streets for citys and townships... I have zero mailboxes to my name...
> 
> Was I doing something wrong?????


You would have to be some kind of :terribletowel:to be taking out mailboxes. I had my gate down in my dump full of brush. I had a guy in my pickup. I told him to watch me backing out. I hear the horn blow look in my mirror and he is on his cell phone. Never knocked it loose just dented the box. He did fix it without me even asking him to. I did reimburse him for the box because he knew what was the right thing to do.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> My policy with employees is, damage caused by negligence it's their problem. This is only if its a continual problem over a 3month period of time, each time they are talked to and the incident was documented. The 3rd time they have the choice of being fired or making it right.
> They know this going into the job and I figured if they're signing on after knowing that they'll be good employees and it weeds oot the bad ones.
> I've only had to do this once and he quit.


So much for people skills.............


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So much for people skills.............


People Skills have nothing to do with it..... It's making sure the employee understands company policy and expectations. When you consider the resources and money involved in training an employee it's foolish to invest in a "warm body" that creates rework along with not hitting the quoted labor/equipment budgets.
Everyone has their own protocol and approach. I've found what I'm doing works well for me.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I think todd is right.







And


Yes


That felt weird to say....
:waving:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> People Skills have nothing to do with it..... It's making sure the employee understands company policy and expectations. When you consider the resources and money involved in training an employee it's foolish to invest in a "warm body" that creates rework along with not hitting the quoted labor/equipment budgets.
> Everyone has their own protocol and approach. I've found what I'm doing works well for me.


I can't argue what you've said. And there are legal ways of doing it, but it is obvious the OP hasn't been following those concepts.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

SnoFarmer said:


> I think todd is right.


 This has to be the funniest post in weeks......:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

BUFF said:


> This has to be the funniest post in weeks......:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:


It even made. Me laugh...


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## GimmeSnow!! (Oct 23, 2008)

I had an HR firm write my handbook and there is a clause in it for neglect and carelessness (although I do not remember the exact wording or what it entails). My shop manager is going to cement the post in a bucket and set it back out there until spring and I will pay someone to put it back in the ground. I will pay the employee $10/hr for digging the snow out of the bays. I was angry when I wrote the post but since then I have hired two more drivers and taken him out of the salt rotation. He will be on residential only from now on and as soon as we are caught up I will send someone to the back end of his route. If he picks his times up and doesn't have any accidents he can earn some more hours. Any more accidents and he will be moved to the walk crew. This guy has been with me for 3 years and has been trained on a different contract. The contract that he was on decided to go through a re-bid process on December 12th so it was either he sits at home and I let my subs work or the subs sit at home and he works. The subs will be back next week anyway because we will be back on the contract. The lot is a container factory there are truck trailers everywhere and containers everywhere and they shift things constantly so the map is irrelevant. He was being lazy and did not want to move the snow twice to get it where it needed to go. The thing that pissed me off was that he was playing dumb on the phone which is why I told him to talk to the manager.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

You do realize there isn't any frost in the ground???

You could put in a new post right now.


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## GrassManKzoo (Oct 8, 2016)

Used to do a large container manufacturer with about 30 loading bays.. at the end of the building I could fill the last 5 with snow. So yea sometimes it is acceptable to put snow in loading docks. 

If you have a problem with the guy, fire him but do the rest of us a favor and pay him. Don't be one of those guys to give the rest of the industry a bad name for not paying... I've worked for 3 non paying companies. Feed your dogs and you won't get bit


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

GrassManKzoo said:


> Used to do a large container manufacturer with about 30 loading bays.. at the end of the building I could fill the last 5 with snow. So yea sometimes it is acceptable to put snow in loading docks.
> 
> If you have a problem with the guy, fire him but do the rest of us a favor and pay him. Don't be one of those guys to give the rest of the industry a bad name for not paying... I've worked for 3 non paying companies. Feed your dogs and you won't get bit


What???????


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## GrassManKzoo (Oct 8, 2016)

I'm sorry.... to clarify it was recommended by the company that I did this as the building was U shaped and the main lot in the middle. Loading docks on one side and and regular parking on the other it. It honestly was the only place to put it unless you wanted to pile it by the road and haul it out after every storm


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## Foybles (Nov 13, 2015)

kimber750 said:


> You are probably not going like this but here it goes. Where is the management? Employee asks a question and you tell him to talk to someone else? Old saying, Don't let the employees run the company. You are the one letting them milk the clock. 20 hours to fix 3 mailboxes is absurd. To me it sounds you have let the employees get away with everything and anything now you want to change it, well good luck.
> 
> Remember employees are only as good as the training you give them. Yes some can't be trained, I have dealt with my fair share of them, and those are the ones you need to replace.


I have to agree with this. Driver's meetings, site maps and even walk-throughs on more demanding properties is essential to reducing expenses from mistakes and other types of rework.

With that said I personally have inadvertently pulled up a 6 foot section of curb. It happens...:hammerhead:


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