# customer questioning invoice



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I sent my invoices out Dec.2 for one event in Nov.(the19th) and for an event Dec. 1&2. Those were the three days that we had billable events.

In Nov. we also had 9 days of rain and varying temps around freezing, so I was ready to salt if needed, but the temps stayed high enough that it wasn't required.

Same thing in Dec. so far, 8 days of rain and temps close to freezing.

How do you bill for monitoring conditions, if no service is required? 
I just added it to the billable days.
What would you charge?
I am charging $20

My insurance man says I should salt "per request" to shift the liability to them. But I really prefer to be proactive and do it ahead of the game, as the manager is off site and when he calls I may be unable to get there quickly. 

These are apt. buildings and I check them every morning, regardless of precipitation, because the tenants often bring out old furniture etc. that the garbage truck doesn't take and I have to haul to the dump so that they aren't in the way when I do have to plow.
I charge $20/piece of debris plus dump fees.

Thanks in advance for your help!


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

Am I reading this right? You want to charge them for watching the weather?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What does your contract state you can charge? 

BTW, I've been monitoring the weather since November 1 and will until at least April 15.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Your the garage man too?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Sawboy;2073542 said:


> Am I reading this right? You want to charge them for watching the weather?


Sounds like he did.

My I suggest, a mix of sessional with your per push...

Unless it's in your contract you can't charge for watching to see if it snowed or froze.

When they question your invoice what are you going to tell them?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

That's part of the job. Luckily I don't have to do it right now because I'm a sub and they tell me when to go out. When I did do it though, it's a lot of sleepless nights watching radars, looking at temps, and driving to sites to see what conditions are like. It's part of the game. Gotta add the "non-productive" time into your billable hours and prices. Just like full time business, you have to include drive time, non-productive, and productive hours to your bids.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

I would say this is another reason not to Low Ball Price. Bid High and provide a High Quality Service. I do not Bill for looking at the weather or checking conditions.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

JMHConstruction;2073576 said:


> That's part of the job. Luckily I don't have to do it right now because I'm a sub and they tell me when to go out. When I did do it though, it's a lot of sleepless nights watching radars, looking at temps, and driving to sites to see what conditions are like. It's part of the game. Gotta add the "non-productive" time into your billable hours and prices. Just like full time business, you have to include drive time, non-productive, and productive hours to your bids.


X2Thumbs Up
It should have been factored into your price of doing business.
Ie you all ready charged them for watching the weather.
As it is in your price, as is fuel cost, maintance, etc etc


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Sounds like he's doing it on his own and then trying to bill them for it.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

I guess if they will pay it more power to you. Please let us know how it goes over.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

If I tried that I'd loose my customers. As far as garbage I'll tell the manager to move it, if they don't move it in a realistic timeframe I'll bury it.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Would like to see what this contract says u can bill for 
Around here you would be either fired for jacking up the bill or they would just laugh at you 
And make sure your contract states about the garbage you get paid it just wasted some of your own money 
It's hard enough to get paid for what's in your contract never mind stuff you do outside the contract


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

So I guess maybe the question I should have asked is, "How do you decide when to salt, when it rains for two days straight and the temps are between 32 and 38 degrees?" He paid the invoice, I was asking for help wording the explanation of the level of service so he understands.
I'm not charging for getting up every hour when they forecast snow, I know that's part of the game.
So nobody ever goes out thinking they might have to salt somewhere, and then not have too? And you do that for free? Or some of you did say that it's factored in to the per push/event price, like I did.
So I guess that's my answer.
Thanks for the input!


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## immortal.ben (Feb 28, 2015)

Its part of the bid price. How could it be anything else? 

My contracts, where the customer wants de-icer, states that I will salt every time I plow and whenever icy conditions are likely to exist.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

jonniesmooth;2073660 said:


> So I guess maybe the question I should have asked is, "How do you decide when to salt, when it rains for two days straight and the temps are between 32 and 38 degrees?" He paid the invoice, I was asking for help wording the explanation of the level of service so he understands.
> I'm not charging for getting up every hour when they forecast snow, I know that's part of the game.
> So nobody ever goes out thinking they might have to salt somewhere, and then not have too? And you do that for free? Or some of you did say that it's factored in to the per push/event price, like I did.
> So I guess that's my answer.
> Thanks for the input!


A lot of guys do drive around and cheek out sites to see if they need serviceing. Some watch the local temps closely, some have been doing it for so long they get a feel for it, and we all still show up to a site just to find there is nothing to do,
This pro, level of service is reflected in our price.
Just becuse you want to work doesn't mean you get to charge for your anxiety,

we do get it.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I charge for site monitoring...plowing is free


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Why are you handeling the garbage? don't say its in the way, the plow will move it. You would only charge someone here one time for looking at a site and not doing any service.


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## Snow tracker (Jan 31, 2014)

There are many mornings I take a ride at 4:30, looks at a few lots, get out of the truck and walk on the pavement just to see if it is slippery. This may include winter rain events when temps are close to freezing. I do not charge extra for this but figure it is built in to the over all price of my service.


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## cbservicesllc (Aug 5, 2011)

Snow tracker;2073735 said:


> There are many mornings I take a ride at 4:30, looks at a few lots, get out of the truck and walk on the pavement just to see if it is slippery. This may include winter rain events when temps are close to freezing. I do not charge extra for this but figure it is built in to the over all price of my service.


This......


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I will sometimes put it on the bill 

"site checked for slippery conditions, no service required" $0.00. 

This way they know we are actively monitoring things and are using judgement to determine when service is needed.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Longae29;2074112 said:


> I will sometimes put it on the bill
> 
> "site checked for slippery conditions, no service required" $0.00.
> 
> This way they know we are actively monitoring things and are using judgement to determine when service is needed.


I like that. Let's em know you're doing your job, and also shows that you do more than just plow their roads. I think when I start doing contracts again I'll start doing this.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

JMHConstruction;2074125 said:


> I like that. Let's em know you're doing your job, and also shows that you do more than just plow their roads. I think when I start doing contracts again I'll start doing this.


That's what I was looking for! Thanks for all the help everyone!


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

jonniesmooth;2074789 said:


> That's what I was looking for! Thanks for all the help everyone!


Sorry I must have misunderstood what you were asking. I thought you wanted to charge your customer for looking at conditions. I get it now.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

if its foggy and 32 or lower... (if you charge per application)


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## d_charters (Nov 11, 2012)

Longae29;2074112 said:


> I will sometimes put it on the bill
> 
> "site checked for slippery conditions, no service required" $0.00.
> 
> This way they know we are actively monitoring things and are using judgement to determine when service is needed.


I check in the same manner but never make a record of it as I believe it could come back to bite you in the ass if somone fell from a thaw and refreeze and there is a record of you doing site checks sometimes.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

d_charters;2091883 said:


> I check in the same manner but never make a record of it as I believe it could come back to bite you in the ass if somone fell from a thaw and refreeze and there is a record of you doing site checks sometimes.


Record record record everything all the time. Why would it bite you in the ass if you have proof that you performed a site check and nothing needed to be done when you were there? You were there and no service was required big whoop, not your fault if it freezes 2 hours after you were there just come back and perform the required service when needed.


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## d_charters (Nov 11, 2012)

terrapro;2091985 said:


> Record record record everything all the time. Why would it bite you in the ass if you have proof that you performed a site check and nothing needed to be done when you were there? You were there and no service was required big whoop, not your fault if it freezes 2 hours after you were there just come back and perform the required service when needed.


I see where your coming from. I may of misunderstood the first post. Almost all of my properties are on seasonal contracts. They have salt boxes for minor things and I seldom do site checks that don't result in salting. I didn't want to imply that I was doing site patrol but yes I do record even if no services were preformed. I just mean I don't want to imply that I'm giving them a site patrol service for free. Sorry if that doesn't make any sense. I think faster than my thumbs move.


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## Yeti-ST (Jun 17, 2015)

We have seasonal clients and put in our contract that we automatically service their property if the 24hr forecast is 2 degrees celcius or colder. That temperature is set as we are in Vancouver and the humid air can create frost at that temperature. Also as Environment Canada doesn't record their forecast, only actual temps, we have built a database that logs forecasts from the 20+ weather stations in our area every 15 minutes. Each location has an RSS feed that can be put into a database. We then provide a login for clients to view the weather forecast. So... if the forecast is 3 degrees and we don't go, but it actually dips to 1 degree and frost occurs, we aren't responsible. We obviously don't want to have slippery sites and send a truck to deal with it but it provides protection in the event someone does slip for those days. We've created this for our own use but are now offering it to other customers who want that as well as a mobile app to send routes to drivers and have them take pictures, take GPS locates, and get start stop times. The app is available on the Play Store (Android) and App Store (Apple) Search for YETi Snow Tracker and let me know if you want to try it out.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Just a though here... why not throw a little bit of salt here and there and invoice for "spot salting slick spots" Don't get crazy, just cover your time if you drove all the way to the site and hit a few spots here and there.

Makes you look like your on top of site conditions, and if it is at a discounted rate, typically people don't question as they think they are getting a deal.

Justa trick I use to due to get paid for site visits.

Works best if you have multiple sites to check in a morning and you can "spot" one lot one time, and a different one the next and so on....


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

With avg winter temps that rarely drop below 6*c and rain 17 days a
Month it leaves a small window for frost.

Your sure look'en for places to push your beta app.
Are you a vender or...?

Or just pre treat with a brine when low temps are forecasted.
And charge for the applacations?



Doesn't salt spray need to be like 27*F to freeze becuse of the salt content?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Yeti-ST;2122016 said:


> We have seasonal clients and put in our contract that we automatically service their property if the 24hr forecast is 2 degrees celcius or colder. That temperature is set as we are in Vancouver and the *humid air can create frost at that temperature. *
> 
> Any chance I could get a detailed explanation on this phenomena?
> 
> ...


So let me see if I have this straight. You claim no responsibility for ice just because a forecast said it wasn't going to happen. Does this apply to actual plowing too? They don't forecast snow, but it does accumulate so you're not responsible\liable for not plowing it? (sounds kinda stupid when you put it that way, doesn't it?)

BUT, you still send a truck oot to make sure ice does not occur? Why? You said your forecast\contract absolves you of liability.

Anyways, only a fool relies on a forecast.


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## Yeti-ST (Jun 17, 2015)

We cover almost 200 sites that include prisons, police stations, court houses, walmarts, etc. We auto-dispatch at 2 degrees based on the forecast from the closest weather station to anti-ice so that in the event the forecast is wrong (temp goes lower) or the location of that site is such that it dips lower and frost occurs, we're protected (and so are our clients). Clients can opt out of the service in writing prior to us dispatching.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So the disclaimer is pointless? 

You didn't answer my questions though.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I don't ever think I've seen the city, state nor have I spread salt for frost.
We, like you also live next to a large body of water.

Are you sure it's not rime?


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