# My experience - subcontracting for SnowGo



## WolfertInc

This thread should only be used for the purposes of informing others of their experience, whether positive or negative, while working for this National Service Provider. Please refrain from speaking of any "hearsay" or saying anything that you don't know to be 100% true or your own experience. Posts have been removed from this site regarding SnowGo because it was thought some information could be potentially false or untrue.

I subcontracted for SnowGo (the company is based out of Pensacola, Florida) for the 2017-2018 snow season in Kansas City. I was doing four grocery stores and two smaller buildings. My contact seemed very knowledgeable of the snow removal industry and had an excellent pulse on the weather and communicated very well during snow events. Our relationship started well, at first, and then payments started to become late. Towards the end of the snow season, our relationship soured as the account was grossly past due and I found I couldn't trust any of the information he was giving me regarding the payments. It wasn't until I contacted the company SnowGo was contracted through and threatened to file a lien on the properties that I was finally paid. All in all, I was paid in full. I have been made whole, however, I would like this information to be out in the open so other contractors are aware of this review. I have come across two more contractors in nearby areas that have had almost identical experiences.

I hope the information I've shared and others share will help shed some light for contractors who are solicited to subcontractor for this company. Prior to my company subbing for SnowGo, I could not find any information online regarding SnowGo. This "lack" of information lead me to believe that no information was good information!


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## shawn_

Thanks for the info guys!


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## tpendagast

A snow company based out of Florida 
That’s a red flag right there.
Like hockey teams based in North Carolina or Arizona.

As with ANY national company, 
There’s a floating number out there 
Let’s say it’s 100

That’s what the contract is worth 
The company doing the contracting (the one receiving the services) puts it out to bid BECAUSE they want to spend no more than 90

Otherwise they could get it done for 100, they already have that, they want the same or better for less this is WHY it goes out to bid.

So enter 5 big national companies trying to get this contract.
Well... if you want it, 90 won’t win, because someone will bid 88.
So eventually this contract goes for 70

THEN they need to sub that to someone else.
They want to cover their operating costs which is ALL overhead and make a profit so.... the job is offered out for 50.

So right off that bat you have a contract going for half value. 

The only company that can actually perform this work is a larger one, that has the office staff to manage the paperwork, procedures, phone calls, pictures and email processing while jumping through rings of fire to even get payments processed in the first place AND have the financial stability to be able to wait 90–120 days for payments in the event there’s hiccups in processing payments OR the fact that in order to GET the contracts the national company may have grossly underbid themselves or have multiple issues with accounts and aren’t getting paid by the end user due to missing pictures or failed app log ins etc etc. 

A company large enough to do all that doesn’t need the national companys excess overhead anyway and can handle the regional work (state, county, multiplie stores ) anyway.

Small company’s and one owner circuses (where the owner does most of the operating) shouldn’t take this work AT all 

They may do the work wonderfully 
But can’t manage the excessive hand holding or wait for payments when everything doesn’t go smoothly. 

In my estimation, soon, the nationals will bid themselves out of existence 
There is a bottom to the spiraling tidy bowl 
And corporations have facility management personnel anyway. 
Eventually the market will reset itself. 

Until then just don’t get involved with contracts like that when your company isn’t set up to handle them.. just sit back and watch.

One day you’ll drive by an unserviced account and wonder “what in the world”””
And the manager will hire you , just like the old days...

The house of cards will fall
Who knows when 
Until then just deal with local companies on local lots


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## Philbilly2

tpendagast said:


> In my estimation, soon, the nationals will bid themselves out of existence
> There is a bottom to the spiraling tidy bowl
> And corporations have facility management personnel anyway.
> Eventually the market will reset itself.
> 
> Until then just don't get involved with contracts like that when your company isn't set up to handle them.. just sit back and watch.
> 
> One day you'll drive by an unserviced account and wonder "what in the world"""
> And the manager will hire you , just like the old days...
> 
> The house of cards will fall
> Who knows when
> Until then just deal with local companies on local lots


I wish I could agree with you on this part.

The issue I see is that there is always the next guy in line that will do it for a dollar less. There is always someone out there that is more hungry than you. Just is.

It might change back in Alaska, but down here, everyone is looking for the easy out. As long as they can write 1 check to an nsp and everything is done for lets say 500 sites in 25 states... I just dont see it happening.

We live in a lazy world...


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## Randall Ave

Philbilly2 said:


> I wish I could agree with you on this part.
> 
> The issue I see is that there is always the next guy in line that will do it for a dollar less. There is always someone out there that is more hungry than you. Just is.
> 
> It might change back in Alaska, but down here, everyone is looking for the easy out. As long as they can write 1 check to an nsp and everything is done for lets say 500 sites in 25 states... I just dont see it happening.
> 
> We live in a lazy world...


I agree. Not that I like it. They don't have to have a group of people employed monitoring site conditions, payments, etc. One check and they are done. I do work on trucks for Novartis. But a large service company handles the entire site maintenance. I know I am getting paid. But on average over three months.


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## Ajlawn1

tpendagast said:


> A snow company based out of Florida
> That's a red flag right there.
> Like hockey teams based in North Carolina or Arizona


Cuz hockey is played outside in Alaska and Canada...?


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## Mike_PS

tpendagast said:


> A snow company based out of Florida
> That's a red flag right there.
> Like hockey teams based in North Carolina or Arizona.
> 
> As with ANY national company,
> There's a floating number out there
> Let's say it's 100
> 
> That's what the contract is worth
> The company doing the contracting (the one receiving the services) puts it out to bid BECAUSE they want to spend no more than 90
> 
> Otherwise they could get it done for 100, they already have that, they want the same or better for less this is WHY it goes out to bid.
> 
> So enter 5 big national companies trying to get this contract.
> Well... if you want it, 90 won't win, because someone will bid 88.
> So eventually this contract goes for 70
> 
> THEN they need to sub that to someone else.
> They want to cover their operating costs which is ALL overhead and make a profit so.... the job is offered out for 50.
> 
> So right off that bat you have a contract going for half value.
> 
> The only company that can actually perform this work is a larger one, that has the office staff to manage the paperwork, procedures, phone calls, pictures and email processing while jumping through rings of fire to even get payments processed in the first place AND have the financial stability to be able to wait 90-120 days for payments in the event there's hiccups in processing payments OR the fact that in order to GET the contracts the national company may have grossly underbid themselves or have multiple issues with accounts and aren't getting paid by the end user due to missing pictures or failed app log ins etc etc.
> 
> A company large enough to do all that doesn't need the national companys excess overhead anyway and can handle the regional work (state, county, multiplie stores ) anyway.
> 
> Small company's and one owner circuses (where the owner does most of the operating) shouldn't take this work AT all
> 
> They may do the work wonderfully
> But can't manage the excessive hand holding or wait for payments when everything doesn't go smoothly.
> 
> In my estimation, soon, the nationals will bid themselves out of existence
> There is a bottom to the spiraling tidy bowl
> And corporations have facility management personnel anyway.
> Eventually the market will reset itself.
> 
> Until then just don't get involved with contracts like that when your company isn't set up to handle them.. just sit back and watch.
> 
> One day you'll drive by an unserviced account and wonder "what in the world"""
> And the manager will hire you , just like the old days...
> 
> The house of cards will fall
> Who knows when
> Until then just deal with local companies on local lots


this thread is regarding experience with this company...so, since you don't appear to have worked for them, then no need to respond in this thread


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## BossPlow2010

Wheres that Ramir guy? Hasn’t he worked for every NSP?


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## tpendagast

Michael J. Donovan said:


> this thread is regarding experience with this company...so, since you don't appear to have worked for them, then no need to respond in this thread


I have

I was staring Allll the companies work the same 
You can change the name of the company 
But the experience is mostly similar because the end users needs and contracts are all the same.

Learn to work the way they operate or bow out, it's not going to change 
One National isn't amazingly different than the next.
They're not doing something "wrong" per se
It's just how they operate isn't compatible with the small snow contractor, so the experience is typically stressful and unpleasant. 
"They" can mean any of the nationals 
They are simply a middle man

Understanding how/why the middle man works or does what they do may (or or may not) help alleviate the frustration.


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## tpendagast

Ajlawn1 said:


> Cuz hockey is played outside in Alaska and Canada...?


Still waiting for an nyc cricket team...


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## Mike_PS

tpendagast said:


> I have
> 
> I was staring Allll the companies work the same
> You can change the name of the company
> But the experience is mostly similar because the end users needs and contracts are all the same.
> 
> Learn to work the way they operate or bow out, it's not going to change
> One National isn't amazingly different than the next.
> They're not doing something "wrong" per se
> It's just how they operate isn't compatible with the small snow contractor, so the experience is typically stressful and unpleasant.
> "They" can mean any of the nationals
> They are simply a middle man
> 
> Understanding how/why the middle man works or does what they do may (or or may not) help alleviate the frustration.


Again, it's about SnowGo so we don't need to group all the NSP's in the discussion...I'm not asking and I doubt you've worked for them, just your opinion so again, move on


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## tpendagast

Philbilly2 said:


> I wish I could agree with you on this part.
> 
> The issue I see is that there is always the next guy in line that will do it for a dollar less. There is always someone out there that is more hungry than you. Just is.
> 
> It might change back in Alaska, but down here, everyone is looking for the easy out. As long as they can write 1 check to an nsp and everything is done for lets say 500 sites in 25 states... I just dont see it happening.
> 
> We live in a lazy world...


You're not wrong 
But there IS A BOTTOM 
There's fuel and insurance 
Minimum wage 
Etc etc

Somewhere down there 
The lowest price will even lose the worst business with illegal employees and stolen equipment money.

So ... there IS a bottom.

FWIW a few of the nationals were losing contractors on the east coast like flies last season.

Everyone likes the idea of collecting a paycheck when there's no snow (which is what all the low prices are about) 
But not everyone can actually deliver when the white stuff hits the fan (which means it's getting close to bottom)


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## Philbilly2

tpendagast said:


> You're not wrong
> But there IS A BOTTOM
> There's fuel and insurance
> Minimum wage
> Etc etc
> 
> Somewhere down there
> The lowest price will even lose the worst business with illegal employees and stolen equipment money.
> 
> So ... there IS a bottom.
> 
> FWIW a few of the nationals were losing contractors on the east coast like flies last season.
> 
> Everyone likes the idea of collecting a paycheck when there's no snow (which is what all the low prices are about)
> But not everyone can actually deliver when the white stuff hits the fan (which means it's getting close to bottom)


It is cute that you think that...

The bad part that most of these guys dont understand that there is a bottom. You should know that with how long you have been on this site.

Insurance... minimum wage... have you talked with some of these fly by night companies... I would be shocked if some of them even have personal grade truck insurance.


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## Masssnowfighter

I agree 100% with you, with the cost of everything going up and the pay going down, eventually those two lines are going to intersect each other and when they do I foresee many nsp’s getting fired for not meeting there service obligations and there multi million dollar contracts getting terminated. And another thing, there is no shortage of people wanting to make money for doing nothing, but the guy who is willing to actually do the physical work is becoming a dying breed. Sooner then later that is going to become a huge supply and demand problem for those who are who aren’t capable of doing the actual work


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## Mark Oomkes

Masssnowfighter said:


> Sooner then later that is going to become a huge supply and demand problem for those who are who aren't capable of doing the actual work


It's sooner right now.


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## JMHConstruction

Minimum wage doesn't apply to business owners. There will always be new guys that see dollar signs before operating costs. The only hope among snow contractors is that eventually the service will be done so poorly, companies (stores) will have no choice but to go back to hiring local companies.

The problem is, like Phil said, it's too easy for them to hire one company. Even if they pay more to the NSPs, they save money by not dealing with a bunch of different companies and contractors for all their needs. Whether they need a door fixed, the grass mowed, carpets cleaned, snow plowed, whatever, they only deal with one company.

Honestly the idea of an NSP is great, and I wish I would have thought of it. I think that if they would have kept their word to the subs they hire, it would have been great. They could have sold the service instead of the price, paid their subs a decent wage (and on time), and everyone would have been happy. Hell, even as a snow contractor, you would only have to worry about collecting from a new NSPs, instead of multiple clients. Instead, unfortunately, the NSPs have made a name by ripping off their subs, getting cut throat on prices, and ruining the business.

My MIL is a GM at a CVS store in the area. A rock in the yard could do a better job with plowing than the joker their NSP hired. They've had numerous slip and falls, her and the employees have to shovel, and she complains every year. Guess who's back for the 3rd year now. She's complained to corporate, to the NSP directly, and to the plow driver. Nothing changes. He drives an hour and 20 minutes to plow their lot (if he shows) in his 2,000 set up with no way to salt, does an awful job, may or may not get paid. Yet he still does it, and they still hire him. They don't care about service or customer satisfaction, only about making money. Hopefully, eventually that will be their down fall.


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## Masssnowfighter

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's sooner right now.


I hear you, in my trade it has already arrived. There is a major shortage of framers/carpenters in my area. Which is good and bad for me. The good part is I get to cherry pick the best jobs for the best money, the bad part is I can't find any good employees to help me.


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## tpendagast

Masssnowfighter said:


> I agree 100% with you, with the cost of everything going up and the pay going down, eventually those two lines are going to intersect each other and when they do I foresee many nsp's getting fired for not meeting there service obligations and there multi million dollar contracts getting terminated. And another thing, there is no shortage of people wanting to make money for doing nothing, but the guy who is willing to actually do the physical work is becoming a dying breed. Sooner then later that is going to become a huge supply and demand problem for those who are who aren't capable of doing the actual work


This

Exactly

As it keeps going down 
Guys with actual equipment and know how get eliminated from the list of prospects

Then what 
The NSPs have to risk it with lower and lower unknowns 
At some intersect of low price and incompetence there's tragedy.

Just here in this town in the last three years four loaders have been used to break into (not accidents, deliberate) store fronts to rob them.

I still laugh about the guy who stole the atm, put it in the loader bucket and led the cops on a "high speed" chase trying to out run them in a loader that can't go more than 28...
At least "speeding" wasn't one of his charges!

That's the risk the nsps take hiring people they've never met and probably never will. 
At least when you sub locally you kinda know and watch the guys directly.

It's not that I think there's a bottom 
I know there is. 
It's just lower than most people's opinions are.

Last years east cost blizzards already saw "legit" companies not showing up to nsp properties , the back up to the back ups were showing up days afterwards.

Now... what happens when THOSE companies are underbid... twice?

At a certain point the nsp can't go lower or they themselves can't make money 
And they can't get companies to show up... then the market resets its self.


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## Masssnowfighter

[QUOTE="tpendagast, post: 2335895, member: 64992"
At some intersect of low price and incompetence there’s tragedy.

Very well said professor. Economics 101. Lol

And another thing, some certain people on here have the opinion that NSP’s aren’t going anywhere because it is so convenient for the big boxes to hire just one company or that is for them to add a extra layer of liability is a bunch of b.s. I work directly for a big box and there whole entire system from bidding to payment is completely automated. 1 click of button and they can send out there monthly work orders to there 800 individual locations. Then a second click of button they can direct deposit the payment right into there vendors bank account. It’s not like the old days opening envelopes and writing out checks anymore. So I don’t see where the NSP is offering them any convenience for that. Same go’s for the RFP’s. 1 click for a mass email and you can get several thousand bids from actual qualified snow plowing professionals. 

The NSP’s sales pitch to the customer is that they are the only ones that have the capability to acquire enough insurance to meet there requirements is also b.s. When I went from doing the same account through a NSP to doing it direct, all I had to add was 1mil umbrella to my policy to meet there requirements. Big whoop, I think it cost me a whole $900, chump change compared to the big raise I got by cutting out the middleman


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## JMHConstruction

Masssnowfighter said:


> [QUOTE="tpendagast, post: 2335895, member: 64992"
> At some intersect of low price and incompetence there's tragedy.
> 
> Very well said professor. Economics 101. Lol
> 
> And another thing, some certain people on here have the opinion that NSP's aren't going anywhere because it is so convenient for the big boxes to hire just one company or that is for them to add a extra layer of liability is a bunch of b.s. I work directly for a big box and there whole entire system from bidding to payment is completely automated. 1 click of button and they can send out there monthly work orders to there 800 individual locations. Then a second click of button they can direct deposit the payment right into there vendors bank account. It's not like the old days opening envelopes and writing out checks anymore. So I don't see where the NSP is offering them any convenience for that. Same go's for the RFP's. 1 click for a mass email and you can get several thousand bids from actual qualified snow plowing professionals.
> 
> The NSP's sales pitch to the customer is that they are the only ones that have the capability to acquire enough insurance to meet there requirements is also b.s. When I went from doing the same account through a NSP to doing it direct, all I had to add was 1mil umbrella to my policy to meet there requirements. Big whoop, I think it cost me a whole $900, chump change compared to the big raise I got by cutting out the middleman


If this is true, why after all these years of poor service, do the big box stores and national chains continue to hire NSPs? Yes, a select few are changing back to hiring local, but no matter how automated things are, it's easier to hire one company to manage everything for all 100, 200, 300, or more of your stores nationwide, than hiring contractors for each field in every single store.

To add to your automated theory, if all bids, etc are automated, the companies are only basing their selection off price (lowest wins), so the same downward spiral would continue, wouldn't it?


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## Masssnowfighter

JMHConstruction said:


> it's easier to hire one company to manage everything for all 100, 200, 300, or more of your stores nationwide, than hiring contractors for each field in every single store.
> From intel I gather on plowsite 1 big box can have over a dozen different NSP's in charge of there sites in any given year. Don't here to many NSPs having control over every single site anymore. Seems like they get rewarded by region or state. I'm guessing the NSP's give rock bottom prices on just the regions they want because it is too costly to get every location.The big boxes have a mandatory tiered discount rate. So if you get rewarded every location you have to give a 20% discount off your total price, if you get half of the locations it's a 10% discount, a quarter of locations is a 5% discount. So if they are bidding $40k per location and win every location nationwide, there per location price automatically gets kicked down to $32k as opposed to staying under the discount rate and not forfeiting so much money.


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## tpendagast

JMHConstruction said:


> If this is true, why after all these years of poor service, do the big box stores and national chains continue to hire NSPs? Yes, a select few are changing back to hiring local, but no matter how automated things are, it's easier to hire one company to manage everything for all 100, 200, 300, or more of your stores nationwide, than hiring contractors for each field in every single store.
> 
> To add to your automated theory, if all bids, etc are automated, the companies are only basing their selection off price (lowest wins), so the same downward spiral would continue, wouldn't it?


First,
It's only your definition of poor service

It's pretty natural for a contractor to look at something and say "I would do better"

However, to an absentee owner "good enough" to not get complaints or affect their main cash flow is "good enough"

Better work is going to cost more and that effects their bottom line.

Can the work be done for free?
Is anyone going to do it for free?
No.
Then there is a price so low that everyone will refuse to do it.

There is also a price so low that any company trying to do it for that price will simply fail.

If the national agreed to do each store for $10,000 and they're only going to give the sub $5,000 or the whole year, and salt costs $100 per ton ... it requires two tons per application, at a cost of $200 and there's 15 applications at a minimum that's $3,000 and you haven't paid to apply it OR plow?

Yet you don't think there's a bottom price so low no one can afford to do it?

Clearly there is.


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## JMHConstruction

I've seen guys shoveling driveways on craigslist as low as $5. Look at 90% of the new people asking for help bidding lots on here. They have NO idea what their costs are, and have no idea what they need to bid to make money.

Yes, I suppose when a national starts asking their subs to perform work for free, we found the bottom. They don't pay as it is (making the work performed free), and every year someone new hops on the NSP lots.

All I'm suggesting is that there will always be a new guy to step in. Perhaps (and hopefully) I'm wrong.


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## Ajlawn1

tpendagast said:


> First,
> It's only your definition of poor service
> 
> It's pretty natural for a contractor to look at something and say "I would do better"
> 
> However, to an absentee owner "good enough" to not get complaints or affect their main cash flow is "good enough"
> 
> Better work is going to cost more and that effects their bottom line.
> 
> Can the work be done for free?
> Is anyone going to do it for free?
> No.
> Then there is a price so low that everyone will refuse to do it.
> 
> There is also a price so low that any company trying to do it for that price will simply fail.
> 
> If the national agreed to do each store for $10,000 and they're only going to give the sub $5,000 or the whole year, and salt costs $100 per ton ... it requires two tons per application, at a cost of $200 and there's 15 applications at a minimum that's $3,000 and you haven't paid to apply it OR plow?
> 
> Yet you don't think there's a bottom price so low no one can afford to do it?
> 
> Clearly there is.


There are guys that will do it for the guaranteed money even if it means losing money....


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## tpendagast

Ajlawn1 said:


> There are guys that will do it for the guaranteed money even if it means losing money....


How long can that last?
One season?
Two seasons?

Then someone under bids even them?

More than one market has reset itself before 
This one is no different 
Just have to wait it out 
Ignore it and focus on anything else that's profitable rather than spending energy bemoaning what "should be"


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## Masssnowfighter

[QUOTE="tpendagast, post: 2336752, member: 6499
Just have to wait it out
Ignore it and focus on anything else that's profitable rather than spending energy bemoaning what "should be"[/QUOTE]

Nothing happens over night, just have to observe the long term trend and which direction it is heading. And I agree with you that it is heading towards a reset


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## Masssnowfighter

I can’t speak for every big box but I know the one I deal with has had it with NSP’s. To the point that sub contracting is not allowed at the supply chain level. A few years back a certain NSP had a falling out with there vendor(I’m guessing over non payment) right before a barrage of storms and it left to two large distribution centers crippled and unable to get merchandise to there stores. The higher ups where furious, and sure enough this years RFP clearly stated no subbing allowed. I’m sure after a few years some one will connect the dots that there supply chain locations are perfectly maintained with no issues while there retail locations are poorly maintained with constant service issues


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## Mark Oomkes

You're all right to one extent or another. 

How long will an idiot contractor do it while losing money? 

Either until he runs out of money or as long as other contracts will support the loss. 

Like JMH said, these guys don't have a clue about costs, do you really think they understand job costing? 

How many of them were making $15 or $20\hour, get in their pickemup, finance a $7k plow and think $40 or $50 an hour plowing on their own is "big money"? 

Look how many come on here and ask about insurance...they don't even know WHERE to find insurance. Hello....call your current agent and ask him.

Or better yet, how about the net profit discussions on lawnsite? These guys can't even grasp what true net profit is. Screw CPA's and GAAP, net is before I take my dividends, before I pay taxes, before I do this, before I do that or the other thing. 

Both of these industries are low barrier to entry and can work for a few years. But then there's another guy that got laid off from GM\Ford\wherever that thinks he's making the big bucks at $50\hour plowing.

Is there a reset coming? Most likely. 

Will it mean the demise of NSP's as a whole? Doubt it. Some might change and get with the times...evolve as it were...but as long as there's a WallyWorld mentality and accountants running things and believing some idiot that says they can save them money, there will always be a market for NSP's and always some newbie with a F150 that thinks he can conquer that WallyWorld and be in the big money.


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## JMHConstruction

Mark Oomkes said:


> Or better yet, how about the net profit discussions on lawnsite? These guys can't even grasp what true net profit is. Screw CPA's and GAAP, net is before I take my dividends, before I pay taxes, before I do this, before I do that or the other thing.


Had to check that out. Is it recent, or the one from 2015? I don't get on lawnsite


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## Mark Oomkes

JMHConstruction said:


> Had to check that out. Is it recent, or the one from 2015? I don't get on lawnsite


It's once a month, maybe once a week on LS. It's downright stupid. Accountants can have a set definition for net profit, but lawn monkeys define it however they want.


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## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's once a month, maybe once a week on LS. It's downright stupid. Accountants can have a set definition for net profit, but lawn monkeys define it however they want.


I take it no one follows what is on their 1120S?


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## JMHConstruction

Philbilly2 said:


> I take it no one follows what is on their 1120S?


They'd have to pay taxes

I shouldn't say that....I'm sure they are all 100% legal businesses


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## Philbilly2

JMHConstruction said:


> They'd have to pay taxes
> 
> I shouldn't say that....I'm sure they are all 100% legal businesses


I mean the top line on your two year comparison says your profit percentage in the eye of the feds... pretty dang clear to me?


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## Mark Oomkes

Philbilly2 said:


> I take it no one follows what is on their 1120S?


Huh?


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## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> Huh?


Sure.


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