# Retainer Fees yes or no??



## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

Just curious on how many charge retainer fees and is it all accounts (if you have any small ones) or just the large ones??


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

please define "retainer fee" - i have heard of ppl in my area calling , a FIXED SEASONAL CONTRACT - a retainer fee


i personaly offer 3 contract options, 1 per push, 2 fixed seasonal, which might or might not include salt. and option 3 is a retainer fee contract... they pay a monthly fee to have equiptment dedicated to there property, however pay a per push rate also.. the per push rate for this is alot cheaper that the standard push rate (option 1), often it is about 30% over the cost to service that property per event


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

i think what you defined as a fixed seasonal is the same thing as my retainer fee


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

Dumb.

It's Snow Shoveling, yo.

Nothing more.

I'm on retainer. How absolutely embarrassing. And dumb. Dumb and Embarrassing.

I cant make my Visa payment....but I'm on Retainer!

I cant spell my girlfriends name right, but I'm on Retainer!

I have a third grade edumecation, and am on Retainer!

Get over yourselves. We shovel snow and people think we are all Morons. Thats the way it is, and will always be.

You can dress it up in Sunday Go To Meetin clothes....but it's still grunt work, and we are Morons.

Get used to it.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

does snowpower need a pill


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

We have one account that has a "retainer fee" because the previous contractor had one. I believe it states that unless a minimum of 2 snow plowings are performed during a calendar month a 300 fee will be charged, we probably should have more that say that, its nice to make money for having the equipment ready to go at all times.


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

Snowpower;575117 said:


> Dumb.
> 
> It's Snow Shoveling, yo.
> 
> ...


Well actually you must be speaking about yourself. If you don't like plowing snow get out of the business I am sure there are plenty of guys in Mi. that will take your accounts, however due to your post I have a feeling that you have probably low balled the s hit out of the them due to the fact that you have no insurance and are just trying to make some extra beer money. It was a simple question so if you don't like people asking questions you should maybe reconsider being a member of this site.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

The only one I know around here is a mall and last I heard the mall pays 500,000 to be there and hourly for the season.


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Snowpower;575117 said:


> Dumb.
> 
> It's Snow Shoveling, yo.
> 
> ...


What the hell is your problem dude? I think you need a nap or something, maybe people think your a moron cause you *are/ and/or act like one*

I know a few guys who charge them, its a simple as the client has to pre pay for XX amounts of plows or like was said a Min of X amounts of pushes.

I dont think this is a bad problem, banks and every one else charges a service fee why shouldnt we


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Snowpower;575117 said:


> Dumb.
> 
> It's Snow Shoveling, yo.
> 
> ...


What the hell is your problem dude? I think you need a nap or something, maybe people think your a moron cause you *are/ and/or act like one*

I know a few guys who charge them, its a simple as the client has to pre pay for XX amounts of plows or like was said a Min of X amounts of pushes.

I dont think this is a bad problem, banks and every one else charges a service fee why shouldnt we


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## IDOCTORTREES (Dec 27, 2006)

Im proud of our company and our crew.


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

My point is, and was that this is Snow Shoveling. I dont care if you have one or fifty trucks and I get a kick out of those that try to make it fancy and want to be paid for doing nothing, and jumping on this Fee the customer to death craze thats rampant in this country and going to backlash on all of you.

Service charges, Surcharges, late fee's, complex contract, the refusal to accept responsability for anything you do wrong, the lying about how much salt you apply, and this sickening right you all want to claim to be paid because your snow shovel is at the ready!

Good god.....does your mechanic charge you a retainer fee because his pliers are sitting there waiting for your truck to show up?


I could go on.

Look.

When I say we are Morons....I am telling you that thats what the public thinks when you drive by. We arent....well. Most of us aren't.

But, good grief we aren't nuero surgeons either. 

My plate is always full....shoveling snow. Lowballers or not, but Im certainly not losing customers because I oversell my service. Have a six page contract, and Fee's up the ying yang to the point that the client wants to hurl.

Retainer fees....lol...


Whats next. Coffee fund fee's? Oh hey my high maintenance wife needs a new Escalade Fee's?

Stop it.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Snowpower;575213 said:


> My point is, and was that this is Snow Shoveling. I dont care if you have one or fifty trucks and I get a kick out of those that try to make it fancy and want to be paid for doing nothing, and jumping on this Fee the customer to death craze thats rampant in this country and going to backlash on all of you.
> 
> Service charges, Surcharges, late fee's, complex contract, the refusal to accept responsability for anything you do wrong, the lying about how much salt you apply, and this sickening right you all want to claim to be paid because your snow shovel is at the ready!
> 
> ...


some ppl might see it as being a basic simple service, your correct

others do see it differently.... some customers like to pay per push... that way they get what they are paying for..... its simple... for the customer, if we only get alittle snow...they win, if we get a lot , they lose

others like a fixed seasonal contract... larger home owners assocations, dont want to go around collecting money twice, simply becasue it was a bad winter... you the contractor should lean to like this type of contract becasue its gaureentied money. its the oppsite here. for the customer, if we get little snow, they lose and paid alot of money for little service, they can feel cheated

the retainer contract is a half and half,... they pay a montly smaller fee... and then pay a smaller per push rate... this way if its a light winter, they only pay the basic fee, plus small per push rate...... if its a bad winter, they do pay more money , however not nearly as much as a per push contract, they still get what they pay for..... this is a great option to give you need to rent equiptment for the property , as the rental costs can be paid for with the monthly installment, and storm costs can be paid for on the per push level

its just business... i dont tell them , to go one way or another... the customer picks them selfs what they want


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

i kind of agree with both sides on this.

as far as excessive fees the market has a way of taking care of itself through competition.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

i dotn see it as a fee-... thats the difference

If i was charging them full price to plow there parking lot... plus a retaininer fee.... then i completelty agree with the "fee thing" and being a bad idea

the without giving away my formula too much.... ill put it like this... it could be as simple as 50% of a seasonal rate.... plus 50% of a per push rate

(thats not how i do it ...i will take into account, alot of things, like equiptment needed, cost per storm, ) but this was just an example

so i really fail to see it as a Fee... you could look at it like this... Is a Fixed seasonal rate , considered a Fee? - No

so this is kinda like - charging them for half a season, and then the other half per push...


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Retainer fee sounds to me like a good mix of seasonal and per push or hourly pricing - nice way to cover basic costs and neither the customer or service provider get really gouged. Never heard of it around here though.


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

framer1901;575496 said:


> Retainer fee sounds to me like a good mix of seasonal and per push or hourly pricing - nice way to cover basic costs and neither the customer or service provider get really gouged. Never heard of it around here though.


Ok tomorrow your local mechanic starts charging you a retainer fee because he has a nice shiny toolbox just sittin there waitin for your truck to need service that he needs to pay for. It's only a measley 10 dollars a week.

How in the hell is a consumer paying a contractor to sit on his butt, not being gouged?

If you people would charge what your equipment and time are worth WHEN you and your equipment are needed, you wouldnt have to play these childish games trying to confuse the client into paying you for watching Oprah.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Snowpower;575569 said:


> Ok tomorrow your local mechanic starts charging you a retainer fee because he has a nice shiny toolbox just sittin there waitin for your truck to need service that he needs to pay for. It's only a measley 10 dollars a week.
> 
> How in the hell is a consumer paying a contractor to sit on his butt, not being gouged?
> 
> If you people would charge what your equipment and time are worth WHEN you and your equipment are needed, you wouldnt have to play these childish games trying to confuse the client into paying you for watching Oprah.


TOO FUNNY


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I get paid to leave my equipment onsite, my guys get paid standby, plus hourly when they work. I don't call it a retainer, but it's the same thing your talking about. Snowpower, you need to calm down.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Don't you think your clients would appreciate the fact you are only plowing so many accounts? Not out chasing down people with a 20 dollar bill in their hand wanting to get plowed out.I tell my customers I only do so many accounts, so they know they will get plowed out in time.So seasonal or retainer call it what you want.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

grandview;575576 said:


> Don't you think your clients would appreciate the fact you are only plowing so many accounts? Not out chasing down people with a 20 dollar bill in their hand wanting to get plowed out.I tell my customers I only do so many accounts, so they know they will get plowed out in time.So seasonal or retainer call it what you want.


im not against seasonals at all but i do see instances in which it would not be in the customers best interest.

like if the person receiving the money spends it and doesnt have the funds anymore to complete the season.

or if prepaid moneys are used against the customer as leverage to keep a account

if the person doing snow removal is fired for good reason and does not return prepaid money

people prepaid may have a tendency to not accomplish the same level of service as if they were not already paid.

i see the good too as far as prepay helps sort out the serious customers from not so serious, helps in planning materials for purchase and funding them, helps in knowing that you will at least get SOME of your money.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

bribrius;575580 said:


> im not against seasonals at all but i do see instances in which it would not be in the customers best interest.
> 
> like if the person receiving the money spends it and doesnt have the funds anymore to complete the season.
> 
> ...


That is why I bill my customers 5 times through out the season. Keeps me honest and they wouldn't be able to stiff me for more then a months worth of work.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Snowpower;575569 said:


> Ok tomorrow your local mechanic starts charging you a retainer fee because he has a nice shiny toolbox just sittin there waitin for your truck to need service that he needs to pay for. It's only a measley 10 dollars a week.
> 
> How in the hell is a consumer paying a contractor to sit on his butt, not being gouged?
> 
> If you people would charge what your equipment and time are worth WHEN you and your equipment are needed, you wouldnt have to play these childish games trying to confuse the client into paying you for watching Oprah.


snowflower- i would gladly pa my mechanic a retainer to be on standby 24-7,x-mas day, new years eve, waiting with all tools, equipment and manpower needed to fix my gear, fix it first and not quit until done

anyone agree with me?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

cretebaby;575595 said:


> snowflower- i would gladly pa my mechanic a retainer to be on standby 24-7,x-mas day, new years eve, waiting with all tools, equipment and manpower needed to fix my gear, fix it first and not quit until done
> 
> anyone agree with me?


That's why the Boss dealer is open during a storm and they aren't going to be charging afternoon prices either


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

cretebaby;575595 said:


> snowflower- i would gladly pa my mechanic a retainer to be on standby 24-7,x-mas day, new years eve, waiting with all tools, equipment and manpower needed to fix my gear, fix it first and not quit until done
> 
> anyone agree with me?


I do I do


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Snowpower;575569 said:


> Ok tomorrow your local mechanic starts charging you a retainer fee because he has a nice shiny toolbox just sittin there waitin for your truck to need service that he needs to pay for. It's only a measley 10 dollars a week.
> 
> How in the hell is a consumer paying a contractor to sit on his butt, not being gouged?
> 
> If you people would charge what your equipment and time are worth WHEN you and your equipment are needed, you wouldnt have to play these childish games trying to confuse the client into paying you for watching Oprah.


 ok using your example, for me paying the Ten dollas per week , here is what i would expect fo that mechanic

he would be on call 24/7, he would have the proper tools at all times, standing by to service my equiptment. I would be a priority, and have a set schedual that my stuff would get worked on at a certain time, and completed by a certain time

and above all , what you are failing to see.. in stead of being charged $65 per hour (or what ever the normal rate is) i would be charged $40 per hour, and there for would save money

have you ever heard of pre paid legal? the laywers do it to

if your any type of a business man , you should realize that it takes a balance of accounts to keep your income high.... GV has alot of seasonal, so a bad winter, and GV doesnt make so much

you sound like your Per Push . so a light winter , and you might go broke

you need to have a balance that way this doesnt happen. I personally set a goal of what i want my fixed and retainer fees to pay per month... this ensures my bills get paid and i make money. I then take the cost to service those accounts, add them up , per storm... and that becomes my "profit goal" on per push accounts. This way the per push profit, is enough to pay for the expense of the retainer and seasonal accounts per storm. there fore, i dont care if it snows, or doesnt snow


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

elite1msmith;575741 said:


> ok using your example, for me paying the Ten dollas per week , here is what i would expect fo that mechanic
> 
> he would be on call 24/7, he would have the proper tools at all times, standing by to service my equiptment. I would be a priority, and have a set schedual that my stuff would get worked on at a certain time, and completed by a certain time
> 
> ...


You're selling Insurance then. Is that it?

And if you only charge 40 dollars per hour for snow removal I'll hire you right now, and sleep while you're out plowing my accounts that I get 150 an hour to plow.

40 an hour dood?

Im not a fan of seasonals, and I prefer per visit charges. To me....it makes sense. No one gets burned. It snows? I go. It doesn't? Well thats the breaks. I just cant sleep well charging people for being on call in case it snows and charging them for equipment Id have anyhow regsrdless if they signed on or not.

It's like some of these customers of you guys aren't customers. They are partners in your business. Paying for your equipment when its not in use? It's crazy.

Again. If you guys charged what the service is worth when you and your EQ was needed, you wouldn't have to try to get them to pay you when you're sitting at home watching the weather channel. 40 dollars an hour.....yikes.

And honestly it makes my life difficult, because every commercial contract or spec I have ever seen was confusing and asked for all kinds of information that is meaningless. people get confused as hell when I say to them, ok. Heres how much it will cost you if it snows, and heres how much for when you need salt.

They are like....well how much per bag! How much per ton! How much for the year! How long will it take you!

None of that matters.

This should be as simple as buying a loaf of bread and over time you nuero surgeons that shovel snow, have screwed it all up, confused and frankly taken advantage of the client to the point when a guy comes along and makes it a simple agreement, they dont know what to think.

But at any rate. Do it however you want and what works for you and your client.

And raise your prices for gods sakes.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Snowpower;575752 said:


> You're selling Insurance then. Is that it?
> 
> And if you only charge 40 dollars poer hour for snow removal I'll hire you right now, and sleep while you're out plowing my accounts that I get 150 an hour to plow.
> 
> 40 an hour dood?


no not selling insurance, And the $40 per hour was an example rate using YOUR example with the mechanic.... if i paid a mechanic a retaininer fee of $10 per week, and his normal billible rate was $65- or 70 per hour to any other customer, than i would expect to only pay $40-45 per hour

i charge between 125-150 depending on the situation.... if they pay a retainer fee, then its around $80 per hour... approx, theres a few calculations to consider when giving them a price... i also dont charge hourly, its based on Sq feet in most cases

if you like being paid per push , thats fine, i did that for many years, i cant tell you how much less stress and easier your life is when you have a FIXED, SET amount of money that comes in on the first of the month, regaurdless of snow fall.


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

elite1msmith;575753 said:


> no not selling insurance, And the $40 per hour was an example rate using YOUR example with the mechanic.... if i paid a mechanic a retaininer fee of $10 per week, and his normal billible rate was $65- or 70 per hour to any other cusotmer, than i would expect to only pay $40-45 per hour
> 
> i charge between 125-150 depending on the situation.... if they pay a retainer fee, then its around $80 per hour... approx, theres a few calculations to consider when giving them a price... i also dont charge hourly, its based on Sq feet in most cases
> 
> if you like being paid per push , thats fine, i did that for many years, i cant tell you how much less stress and easier your life is when you have a FIXED, SET amount of money that comes in on the first of the month, regaurdless of snow fall.


Yeah I felt the same way when I was collecting Unemployment in the winter.....

No offense.

Poster above (sorry I dont recall the name) mentioned that the level of service often stinks when people are pre paid and thats a great point as well. And very true. Probably a lot of ghosting and quick pushes going on.

I cant even imagine a client prepaying for a service that may or may not ever take place.

I have to have car insurance by law, but what in the world are people thinking when they pre pay for snow service. lol

Now Ill hear , Oh....they have it budgeted for the year and it makes accounting easy.....LOL

What....the accounting department isn't interested in saving money? getting what they pay for? or writing five checks instead of two?

Dumb.....And obviously some of you have decided to run with that opening to do your thing, and I guess if the clients are dumb with their cash.....but still. I cant morally do it.

Whatever. Ya'll can try to justify being on call.....but sure as heck guys will be in here bragging about how they are getting paid and its not snowing and they are hunting or whatnot.

Ugh......

No offense.....but this is what happens when you have an industry run by hillbillies and farmers.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

may i ask, Do you have any large scale 100 plus town home assioiations? these are 90% of my FIXED or RETAINER FEE accounts, small buiness, resturants, or large commecial useually pay per push


but as a property manager , of as assoiation, they need a budget, they are not gonna come around asking all 100 ppl that live there for more money just because it snowed alot, or after every snow fall. Its kinda like having res mowing customers... when the season gets dry , and the lawn may or maynot need to be mowed... i can almost certainly say of 100 lawns 15 would or more would call , saying it didnt need to be serviced. i will reason with them , and in some case give them a free cut. But imagine this , execpt those few that did call, would dictate if you got paid for all 100 homes. because thats what it can be like if its members of the board

if they went per push , then you would have 95 homeowners calling you up , or the manager, each time it was a "boarder line" snow , like around 2 inches, for a 2 inch contract... some would yell at you because they didnt feel it needed it, others, would call and ask just y arent you plowing it , after the last guy tolld you not too some of the ppl would refuse to pay, because they felt it was only 1.9 inches of snow, and didnt need to be serviced.


AND , most of the time, i do give them prices all 3 ways..... and they make there own choice.... so if im "ripping them off" so much why is it that most of the time THEY choose to go with a seasonal rate, or a retainer - when i give them a per push price anyway?

and i have never had to collect unempoyment, maybe this is one of the reasons why, again i stress a blance of accounts ,


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## Grisi24 (Oct 19, 2005)

Wow thanks everyone for standing up for who we are, not this guy (snowpower) that doesn't have any clue about running a snow removal business. You have to have that balance and I dont know about everyone else but unemployment with all my equipment and rental costs... is not going to happen my service would fall out and I'm sure everyone can agree?!

I take it this guy doesn't have GL or any commercial insurances...?


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

next i will be told that COMED/ NICOR guys shouldnt be paid to be on call during a storm , ? - its just electricity and gas

or doctors shouldnt be paid too be on call, only while in the operating room

fire departments, should only be piaid while putting out a fire?

what about the City plow drivers? they should only be paid when it snows, otherwise just sit around and wait? hell- they dont even own the truck or equiptment that they use... thats fare less bills than i have to pay

come to chicago , dress and act like a "hillbilly" and see what kind of accounts you land commercialy our service can prevent accidients and injurys , and many law suits. it keeps ppl from beign stuck in the snow, and keeps buisness open during those storms. most shopping centers want their lots plowed to make it look inviting for ppl to come inside, keeps money flowing. We clean off private drives, so that your little old grandmother can safely get to see you on christmas. How about the guys that plow for airports? but planes can land and stop on ICE, at 140 mph, no biggy


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

fair price = price that 2 people agree on

Enough said


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## Indy (Sep 23, 2007)

Snowpower;575213 said:


> My point is, and was that this is Snow Shoveling. I dont care if you have one or fifty trucks and I get a kick out of those that try to make it fancy and want to be paid for doing nothing, and jumping on this Fee the customer to death craze thats rampant in this country and going to backlash on all of you.
> 
> Service charges, Surcharges, late fee's, complex contract, the refusal to accept responsability for anything you do wrong, the lying about how much salt you apply, and this sickening right you all want to claim to be paid because your snow shovel is at the ready!
> 
> ...


I must have missed a class, I must be the d-asc you speak of, isn't the"retainer" just another way of assuring the customer, that when the snow hits the fan, we the snow shoveler will be to them first and with them through the event and not just randomly showing up if it works for us. Including stocking equipment, men, supplies to handle their specific property.......I can see a HUGE reason to charge for that service. But if I miss it and I am still a DA, help a brother out, Yo

Peace out


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Snowpower;575117 said:


> Dumb.
> 
> It's Snow Shoveling, yo.
> 
> ...


snowflower, how come you can't make your visa payment anyway

maybe try charging a retainer then at least you will have enough for your credit card payment


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## Indy (Sep 23, 2007)

Lets go at this differently.

Snowflower, give us an example of ONE of your accounts or any account and what you want to get, per push and we will break that down to seasonal and TWO very good things happen.

Your customer gets the warm and fuzzys that you think they are special and your are committed to them AND on that very same account your customer will pay you the same or more if it snows or not, thats the magic, not that WE are crooks, but the customer wants to be special.

GV has 15 or 20 customers that think AND FEEL they are it.......thats how it works

But give us an example, well work the numbers and get everybodys opinion, you might like it.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

To that list of questions answer this one, how long you have been in business?
There are allot of great ideas brought up on this site. Some maybe not so good, buts its great to check them all out. I have been doing snowremoval over 30 years. One of the main reasons I go online is to learn new ideas. I have never worked per push, and still have a hard time figuring out how you make money when you charge this way. Clearly many of you do, so it must work. Some of you charge per hour. These rates vary from as low as $50.00 an hr to $200.00 an hr. Who am I to judge what you charge. I would assume you charge what the client is willing to pay. Supply and demand, business 101.
Over here I can charge $75 hr for a backhoe. I would love to charge $95 hr but no one will hire me. So my choice is have my backhoe work 200 hrs at $75.00 or nothing at $95.00.
As for seasonal thats how I work it. My clients pay for a service I am going to perform for them. I sell it like an insurance. For $260.00 any time it should snow 2 inches or more I will clear your driveway. I garentee it will be done before 7:00 am with a 3 hour window. Meaning the trigger must be hit before 4:00am, to be done by 7:00am. I will have dedicated equipment and drivers ready at any time to service your place. If you do not have a contract with us, I will still come by and do it, but it will be done after the clients that have a contract. It will also cost you $50 each time you should call me.
Some of you wonder how I can make money this way. I can just say I do. I would love to charge more, but its what my market will bear.
So the last thing I would say is don't knock people, on how they do their business. Read and learn, use what you like and leave the rest.


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## Indy (Sep 23, 2007)

Neige, Perfect, that is exactly the example


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

neige, great advise


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

if i can i would like to point out that snowplowing and ice control is NOT like any other business that i know anything about. the biggest variable is HOW MANY TIMES IT SNOWS you cant possibly know what your cost per push is. interest, depreciation, new purchases and the likes are fixed for the year.

i have some accounts that are seasonal, some per push and some are by the hour. i am leaning towards doing more seasonals so that i have a steadier income for the winter, since this is really the only reason i plow

we have customers that will not do anything but per push and we have thought about charging a "retainer" for years. note i dont think retainer is the right word for it

one must also remember that a seasonal price isnt really that risky for the contractor . if you figured 25 pushs at 200 a piece thats 5000 if you push 28 times it really only cost you fuel and labor say 200 - 300 . but look at the upside if you only push 20 times you put 1000 in your pocket for being ready


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

can cost you material as well- most of mine include salt, not all

retainer is a good word, you paying to retain my service. 

but i call a seaonal rate a , "FIXED SEASONAL" and heard others call it a retainer, so we kinda are talking 2 different contracts here

snowpower, doesnt sleep good at night just thinking about it? does he sleep good at night when it doest snow at all , and his bills are soon stackign up? i do , i wonder how GV sleeps at night with all thoughs seasonal accounts? 

(GV , im not looking for a smart ass comment - about u sleeping naked, or next to a hot chick-lol)


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Here is a segway. When Katrina hit New Orleans and everybody was looking for a contractor to fix their house or something there are companies down there that charge a retain fee each yr to the homeowner so they will be first on the list to get fixed. These contractors already have the homeowners insurance company forms on file and pictures of the homes before damaged. So when the storm hit some of these people had their homes fixed within the week and others were scrambling looking for contractors.If I can find the story I'm post the link to it.

Again I only take on so many lots and I don't go chasing down work.I get the money upfront but I draw from it all season long and in the end Hopefully there is money left over for me. Which there always is!

As sure as I'm drinking a beer right now it will snow in Buffalo and I will work for every penny I make.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

elite1msmith;575864 said:


> (GV , im not looking for a smart ass comment - about u sleeping naked, or next to a hot chick-lol)


I have to remember to turn off the webcam!


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Omg !!!!!!


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

elite1msmith;575864 said:


> can cost you material as well- most of mine include salt, not all
> 
> retainer is a good word, you paying to retain my service.
> 
> ...


yes salt too if it is included in your seasonal price but the risk/reward is about the same eithr way

when a lawyer charges a retainer your basically prepaying. here i think we are talking about charging a min a month or the like but maybe i misunderstood at least i was talking about charging a min a month like say 2-3 pushes on the month end invoice not really a prepay


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

i have no idea any more

heres the 3 things i offer - you tell me what i charge for

1. PER PUSH, based on the total inches of accumulation, and how many times the propery was plowed

2. FIXED SEASONAL , i take the estimated per push rate above and mulitly by the average number of storms in the area , it may or maynot include salt, depends on the contract, a fixed amount is given to the customer, to be broken up into 4 or 5 payments

3. RETAINER CONTRACT , an amount that i chose based on mulitpile things, it is normaly in the ball park of 55% or the Fixed seasonal - it is billed to the customer over 4-5 months again, then in addtion , each time it snows , they pay a "per push rate" however it is much less (50% roughly) or the normal per push rate as described above... this is like my "saftey contract" i make a fair amount , but dont kill on the deal if we have a good/boad winter , like others - the property manager, also will not los there butt either, the customer still gets what they payfor


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

I have a retainer fee on all my per push accounts.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

just plow for beer it simplifies it


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Epic Lawn Care;575921 said:


> I have a retainer fee on all my per push accounts.


can you explain how you charge the retainer


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

bribrius;575930 said:


> just plow for beer it simplifies it


dude i couldnt drink that much beer ... i would have to have a party to get rid of it.... then what the key is , charge for the head count at your party, you might make more money this way, and have a hell of alot more fun


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Here is how I do it.
Pay in full by Oct.10 and pay $240.00 for a single car wide drive. Or pay $260.00 with a post dated check for Jan. 02, 2009.
I have 2700 clients, the idea to bill them each month becomes a nightmare. My existing clients have no problem paying in advance, they know what to expect. For any new clients, well they get to see the service, before its really paid for. I do not want to go chasing my money, so the post dated check solves that problem.
That our company has been around 49 years really helps.
Commercial accounts are billed over 5 months. Nov. 1st - Dec. 1st - Jan. 1st - Feb. 1st and March 1st. I do have 2 large clients that pay over 6 months.
I went to the SIMA symposium and sat at a table about retainers, I wanted to see what I could do differently. I soon realized that's what we have been doing, slightly different but along the same lines.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I should mention that if it's a good Nov. and no snow I'll still will be cutting some of my commercials and they are getting billed for snowplowing that month two. A little double dipping !


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

GV, how dare you , i couldnt sleep at night doing that ,...lol


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

when i started this thread i didn't think that we would have the great debate going on. i was just curious if this was a common practice for us dumb ******* hillbilly's that ain't got no good common cents and all we is doin is pushin (i am sorry shoveling) snow. However I think what snowflower fails to understands (as he toss and turns at night as he tries to figure out how some are getting paid to maintain their $30-100k+ vehicles) waiting for the storm is just like any EMERGENCY service we are on standby waiting just like the police and fire departments who get paid for being on standby (up here with classy and myself in the ******* land of chicago). Now before this turns into paid vs. vol thread I respect and commend all of the volunteers, paid on call, part time, reserve or what ever name you choose today rescue workers hell i used to be one. so snowflower next time you drive by that mall that you really wanted but JD picked it up along with the $500,000.00 retainer to park his trucks and a loader or two with 20' push boxes and pile of salt and say damn i wish i could afford that equipment now I guess you know how he does it, i know you will loose sleep over it and maybe commit harry carry but hey buddy just relax and we will hire you as a sub and only pay you when you work. this way you are not sticking it to us and we can laugh all the way to the bankussmileyflagussmileyflag


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

DFD, happy Bday, you big hillbilly,

next snowpower will tell me the military is only needs to be paid during a time of war


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

Thank's elite ya i sure is glad that ma and pa could be at the ho down talkn bout how we gonna shovel this year. I wonder why i have me 2 papers and one says bachelor of arts business management and the other says associates of science criminal justice.......


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

dfdsuperduty;576059 said:


> Thank's elite ya i sure is glad that ma and pa could be at the ho down talkn bout how we gonna shovel this year. I wonder why i have me 2 papers and one says bachelor of arts business management and the other says associates of science criminal justice.......


well then your a "edumacted" hillbilly


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

dfdsuperduty;576059 said:


> Thank's elite ya i sure is glad that ma and pa could be at the ho down talkn bout how we gonna shovel this year. I wonder why i have me 2 papers and one says bachelor of arts business management and the other says associates of science criminal justice.......


I nominate this as post of the day. LOL


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

JD Dave;576137 said:


> I nominate this as post of the day. LOL


JD ? u all sure up there in the north, that we is SMRT enought to " n o m i n a t e" things? being hillbilly , farmer types? man i wish my shovel was handy


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

elite1msmith;576140 said:


> JD ? u all sure up there in the north, that we is SMRT enought to " n o m i n a t e" things? being hillbilly , farmer types? man i wish my shovel was handy


I tried and I can't talk hillbilly, I bet PowerJoke can, probably second nature to him.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

JD Dave;576148 said:


> I tried and I can't talk hillbilly, I bet PowerJoke can, probably second nature to him.


You could always talk Canadian.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

grandview;576149 said:


> You could always talk Canadian.


We's ain't going down dat road d'ere boy.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

JD Dave;576156 said:


> We's ain't going down dat road d'ere boy.


Wait , wait .... you all got them paved roads up there in that north country? is that what you shovel all winter? and you all charge for that? i thought i should do my part to my country and shovel for freeussmileyflagtymusic


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## ServiceOnSite (Nov 23, 2006)

grandview;575181 said:


> The only one I know around here is a mall and last I heard the mall pays 500,000 to be there and hourly for the season.


gotta stop givin out insider info like that, next thing you know people will be puttin in bids for 250,000 and half as much an hour as what we bill out for.................... o wait they do that every year.


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

oh god snowflower is already trying to figure out it now..... if i only charge them 750.00 per push and snows only twice then that means that I made 1500.00 for the year  oh s hit what about the 1500.00 per month rental fee on the 2 loaders that i had sitting out there and the 25 tons of salt at 95.00 a ton and the 3 truck pmts at 450.00 each how am i going to make this work:crying::crying:..... but hey at least they didn't have to pay a retainer fee and I was able to sleep at night


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## ScnicExcellence (Jun 9, 2008)

Ok think of this *fee* as your cellphone bill 

If you pay attention to your bill you pay for the month in advance then you pay for the previous months overage too. Now if you don't use your phone at all not even turn it on should the cellphone company stop charging you then. NO

If this is the way it should be then hell i will turn my phone off and just drivearound looking for work and stop paying those 300 to 400 dollar phone bills for one phone. I wish i could get away with that!

Now if this were true that they will do this for you will you use your phone or will you just say screw it i will use telepathic transfer of data through everybodies mind to know where i should go for work

Or the internet or cable you use for seeing the snowfall predictions, you pay up front then you don't use do you expect them to give you your money back? 

NO 


You are being payed for a service! You service the public wether commercial or resi, you service them just like the cellphone sells you their service.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

i think i mentioned before that i saw both sides of this.

depending on a couple things

a. if your doing lots of commercial

b. part of the country you operate in.



looks like its gone a bit far to me in this thread because snowpower does have some
valid points.


someone hands a customer a five page contract, surcharges, retainer fee, whatever.
another comes along and gives a flat per push price.
customers like simplicity and things they understand. unless it is large commercial i could see how making more of this than it is could become a issue with losing customers.

i am small time but even i get "you want that much for ten minutes work?" from people. they dont see the maint. on the truck, plans given up because its going to snow, nights with little sleep, the weather watching or any of the "on call" they just see the ten minutes work. they just want the snow out of the way. they could care less what i do when im not moving the snow. i had a customer last year tell me i charge more but i never let her down when it came to haveing the snow out of the way so she preferred to pay me more and not worry about it than the previous people who rarley showed up on time. If i handed her anything prepay or complicated though i know she would have walked. she just wanted the snow gone. no headaches.

when i was still playing landlord i had people refusing to sign leases to rent apartments so im sure if i started handing out contracts for plowing i would gets many who flat out refuse or start looking for someone else. 
If your doing lots of commercial or its accepted for resi in your area and you can get away with it go for it. 
Others may be taking a chance on losing business.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

not a bad train of thought.... most of the time, i price both ways and let the customer choose

but personally, i think that if you are worried about how this type of contract might loss you business, then you are not offing it to the right type of client.....


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

i think after last winter most customers would love a fixed season or retainer contract

and this should be a good year to offer it


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

elite1msmith;576514 said:


> not a bad train of thought.... most of the time, i price both ways and let the customer choose
> 
> but personally, i think that if you are worried about how this type of contract might loss you business, then you are not offing it to the right type of client.....


i have had one i asked say he would prefer it. simpler for him. he considers it less headache. wants to pay next season for his driveway in advance so he dont have to concern himself with it.
all about giving the customer less headache and taking on their headaches. 
majority will not want it im guessing. i dont do surcharges either and try to keep it simple. Anything too complicated and i will get "whats all this? i just want you to plow snow!"
I lost drives last year when i went to by the push instead of by the storm, but i wasn't going to plow the same drive twice for the price of plowing it once, so if you wanted it plowed at four inches or to go somewhere and we are getting a foot then its going to cost you.

.


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## NorthernSvc's (Mar 12, 2006)

i charge a retainer fee for all contracts, we dont' get a lot of snow out here and the equipment/ insurance rates are extremely high because retards that think we are ******** don't know that ice is slippery. my customers pay it because they like my service and i do a good job, my customers dont look for the cheapest service they want quality. i have enough work, this is my price if you don't like it find someone else. its expensive running a business and to have all of this equipment just sitting around waiting for a snow that we might not even have. i also find it as a good way to weed out the cheapskates... the ones that don't pay there bills if there gonna whine about a little retainer fee they there gonna whine all winter long about the work you did. just my 2c


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

Interesting topic, with valid points on all sides, and as someone said, a fair price is what both parties agree to. 

Here's my problem with seasonals (while you should do whatever works for YOU, this is just my opinion). In some areas of the country (not here) they do make sense because it snows from such and such a date to such and such a date and the amount of snow is somewhat typical. 

So, you price based on 25 average snowfalls for example. It only snows 15. You make extra money (nice), BUT, your customer feels ripped off, they want you to lower your price because "last year" it barely snowed. Esp HOA's (cheapest people around). You don't want to budge because your business is predicated on that average amount of money coming in. Maybe they stay because you've done a good job, maybe not. (and snow removal is just overhead for a property owner, forget that at your own peril).

Now, the next year it snows 30 times, you "lose" money because you worked more than you got paid for. You want to raise the rates, but of course most customers don't want to see rates go up and the cycle continues. 

But of course, everyone forgets that the average is 25/year. It would work, but nobody remembers that, they only remember last year. 

So, if instead you only bill for work done (hourly, per push, whatever), then your AVERAGE over the years should be the same. Your month to month cash flow might be more difficult to handle, but no one, either you or the customer feels ripped off in any one year and everyone got paid for exactly the amount of work they did. What's wrong with that?

Someone mentioned cell phone contracts as being pay in advance. Anyone really think cell phone contracts are fair? readable? help the consumer? Not a model I would want to present to customers. Does your local utility do that, or do you pay for the amount of electricity used? Just the amount you used, and do you have a higher opinion of your cell phone company or your local utility. (and they manage to keep people on in storms, etc). It's just a cost of doing business. 

Do what works for you, but
I don't pre-pay anything I can (no choices on things such as insurance, cell phones, taxes, none of which are businesses I hold in high regard) and I pay for the work as it's done, when it's done. And I've decided to structure my business that way. Your thoughts are certainly different, but everyone should at least learn to see that others do things differently and not just close your mind.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Lonecowboy - alot of your points are very valid, and i have heard in the past about paying for a service that you didnt get, (15 plows) , however it should be your job to fully explain the benitits of each type of contract, mine acctually has a paragraph at the top of it explaining the goods and bads from a cusotmers stand point. towards the end of the season, if it was a light yr, do your homework , and offer to sign them up, in Feb, for the following year at a discounted rate, saves you sales work, and they get a good price

yes it might be based on 25, but if it snows 30 - your only talking a loss in fuel, material , and labor for the most part, its really not that big a loss. when i think about the per push, how many times would you go broke becasue it didnt snow that year

trying to compair a seasonal, Vs, a Per push is Apples, and oranges... if i hand a guy a seasonal , and you a per push, really its a guessign game to what that guy is going to like.. simplisity is best? i would think a seasonal is about as simple as you can go.

i think what everyone here is failing to take into account. A seasonal contract is not for every one, or every buiness. neither is a Per Push. you need to learn what types of business like what types of contracts, -- resturants, like per push..... HOA, tend to like seasonal... 

90% its out lined in the 5 page bid packet i get from the property manager, which way they want it priced, some even say both. and if they hand me a 5 page list of requirements, i think my proposal will need to be at least 5 pages just to explain all the items on there.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

LoneCowboy;578309 said:


> Interesting topic, with valid points on all sides, and as someone said, a fair price is what both parties agree to.
> 
> Here's my problem with seasonal (while you should do whatever works for YOU, this is just my opinion). In some areas of the country (not here) they do make sense because it snows from such and such a date to such and such a date and the amount of snow is somewhat typical.
> 
> ...


Totally agree


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