# A favor turning into a job.



## CraigH (Nov 6, 2014)

I have a plow on my GMC 2500hd for my personal drive and my business. In the past I also plowed my elderly neighbors drive for free, just because that's how I was raised. We'll their gone now and the family member who owns the house asked me to continue plowing it as they are renting it out. I don't plan on doing it for free and I don't want to just give a low ball price as it is unfair to everyone doing it for a living. It is a simple drive about 80 feet by 12 feet. Usually takes me about 8 to 10 minutes. What should I tell them for a price so if he shops it I don't screw someone one else with a stupid low price. He is asking for a per push price. Thanks!


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## all ferris (Jan 6, 2005)

You probably are not insured for this type of work???? The money you would have to charge to cover your insurance expense would be over the amount they would be willing to spend. LIMIT YOUR EXPOSURE TO LIABILITY.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

My advice would be to just let them hire someone. You know the old saying - no good deed goes unpunished. The new owners are running a business, so it's no longer you just helping out a neighbor. Just my opinion, of course. I'm just a personal plower like you - my druveway and a neighbor (as a favor) - large country driveways.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

CraigH;2062209 said:


> I have a plow on my GMC 2500hd for my personal drive and my business. In the past I also plowed my elderly neighbors drive for free, just because that's how I was raised. We'll their gone now and the family member who owns the house asked me to continue plowing it as they are renting it out. I don't plan on doing it for free and I don't want to just give a low ball price as it is unfair to everyone doing it for a living. It is a simple drive about 80 feet by 12 feet. Usually takes me about 8 to 10 minutes. What should I tell them for a price so if he shops it I don't screw someone one else with a stupid low price. He is asking for a per push price. Thanks!


It's a whole different situation now. I commend you for taking care of the elderly. This is income property now. If not insured for snow services I would pass. If you feel you will take the shot $40 to $45 per trip. Some scab will probably under bid you anyways.

Not for nothing I know guys without a lick of insurance doing 20 to 25 resi's. maybe $20 to $25 per push. Not recommended.


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## CraigH (Nov 6, 2014)

Thank you, I will take all your advice and pass on the offer.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Fear mongers - oh dear lord. Simple driveway next door, ten minute job for him, three minute job for the well equipped - charge the people 20 bucks.

This isn't like plowing the local fast food joint, mall or gas station. For liability sake - you've been assuming liability all these years while doing it for free...............

Any business that *****es about a lone wolf doing ONE driveway isn't a business.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

framer1901;2062943 said:


> Fear mongers - oh dear lord. Simple driveway next door, ten minute job for him, three minute job for the well equipped - charge the people 20 bucks.
> 
> This isn't like plowing the local fast food joint, mall or gas station. For liability sake - you've been assuming liability all these years while doing it for free...............
> 
> Any business that *****es about a lone wolf doing ONE driveway isn't a business.


Fear Monger's? He's not taking care of the elderly and neighbor anymore. No its not a fast food joint it's income property, Is there a difference?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

when he wasn't charging money, it fell under Good Samaritan 

Now that money is exchanged, it changed everything, it's a business.

So if he does something that creates a hazardous situation he can be held liablel for it.
.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

OMG - a hazardous situation plowing a single lane driveway? GTFOH.

You know how many tom dick and harry's I see running around this town doing the same thing? How many people do work out of their garage??

You all are way over blowing this. You gamble every single day you put your feet on the ground, let alone walk out your front door.

What is your risk? Property damage for sure, easily avoided. That Susie slipped and fell in her freshly plowed driveway - BS, what percentage of driveways plowed are salted too?

This is a residential driveway where homeowners and guests come and go, not a fast food joint that sees 1000 people a day - that's the difference.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

framer1901;2062959 said:


> OMG - a hazardous situation plowing a single lane driveway? GTFOH.


1 or a thousand drives what difference does it make?
and yea, that pile of snow he made, melts, refreezes.
then old aunt Betty come over, slips falls, broken hip,
then to the home because she cant walk anymore....
Aunt Betty can go after their homeowners and the guy who plowed the drive...

It's the same reason you(maybe) and the rest of have INS.



framer1901;2062959 said:


> You know how many tom dick and harry's I see running around this town doing the same thing? How many people do work out of their garage??


Yes ,their are a lot of stupid folks taking on liability.
also working out of a shed, doesn't mean their not insured.



framer1901;2062959 said:


> You all are way over blowing this. You gamble every single day you put your feet on the ground, let alone walk out your front door.


Premises liability is the legal responsibility of owners to ensure their property is safe and free from hazardous conditions. This includes removing tripping hazardous, cleaning up slippery floors, lighting outdoor areas appropriately, and much more.



framer1901;2062959 said:


> What is your risk? Property damage for sure, easily avoided. That Susie slipped and fell in her freshly plowed driveway - BS, what percentage of driveways plowed are salted too?
> 
> This is a residential driveway where homeowners and guests come and go, not a fast food joint that sees 1000 people a day - that's the difference.


nope, wrong, the delivery guy, repairman, etc etc
are all invited ,, and it doesn't matter you have to tell trespassers of any dangers too.
again
Premises liability

Property owners - especially homeowners - have a responsibility to keep their homes safe and hazard free for their visitors.

This falls under the legal term "Premises Liability," which states that homeowners must keep their properties safe for guests. This includes shoveling snow, clearing ice from pathways, securing loose cords, and much more.

Homeowners are clearly responsible for those who enter their property. But first, we have to define who those "guests" would be. The following people would be affected by premises liability in different ways if they were injured at someone's home:

Licensee - This term refers to family members and guests. Though they have no contractual relationship with the homeowner, they are permitted to be on the property.

Invitees - These are people who have been expressly invited to someone's property. This includes construction workers, contractors, and postal workers - anyone whose invitation is implied.

Trespassers - Trespassers are people who enter a property without the expressed consent of the landowner. While you might not want that salesman knocking on your door, you still have to keep your property safe for him or her. Homeowners aren't able to set traps for trespassers, and the home must be reasonably safe for all.

Just because the home owner as INS doesn't mean that the injured party wont come after you, because they will come after everyone they can.

its a dog eat dog world... and when people get hurt they get hungry.

ps just for thought...
in Rhode Island you may collect damages from another party even if you were found to be 99% at fault and the other party is found to be 1% at fault. In Massachusetts you must prove that the Defendant was more then 50% at fault before you can collect damages.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

We are all aware of the risks we face everyday, We are also aware of the scabs moving snow without insurance. What you are choosing to ignoring when people get injured and attorneys and disability gets involved they throw crap at everybody involved and see if it sticks and how much.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Do you salt every driveway you plow? Probably not, so per what you're saying, you're exposing yourself to all these hidden demons - I say BS. If there was such an extreme risk as you say, there's no insurance at any cost that'd cover what we do.

My business insurance costs (comp, liability and vehicles) are way north of the poverty level income, we do a tick under a mil a year in sales.

One driveway or a thousand drives whats the difference? 999..... Your exposure is this not *THAT*. And yes it only takes one but then again, life is risk, odds are odds.

I ought to start selling padded closets.........


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

framer1901;2063038 said:


> Do you salt every driveway you plow? Probably not, so per what you're saying, you're exposing yourself to all these hidden demons - I say BS. If there was such an extreme risk as you say, there's no insurance at any cost that'd cover what we do.
> 
> My business insurance costs (comp, liability and vehicles) are way north of the poverty level income, we do a tick under a mil a year in sales.
> 
> ...


So why do you have insurance?
Roll the dice..
As you said, it only takes one.
( from a guy who is insured)
One could ruin his financial future.
Even bankruptcy wound discharge a court order.

Did you know their are people out there looking for a payday at your expense
Why do you think inc costs so much.
30 years ago it was a fraction of the cost that it is today.

Who mentioned salt?

He's not insured , nor in business, his exposure is huge....

And you and I are free to express our opinions and differences.

He has no obligation to plow the drive.
If he wishes to go out and charge $ then he has to play on the same field you and I do. That's the way it is,

Or we use a name to describe them, like lowballer, scab,
Guys who plow for beer money.

No offense to the op,
We all like to plow and help,out around the neighborhood.
But it could bite you in the @$s.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

framer1901;2063038 said:


> Do you salt every driveway you plow? Probably not, so per what you're saying, you're exposing yourself to all these hidden demons - I say BS. If there was such an extreme risk as you say, there's no insurance at any cost that'd cover what we do.
> 
> My business insurance costs (comp, liability and vehicles) are way north of the poverty level income, we do a tick under a mil a year in sales.
> 
> ...


I don't want to go back and forth about who is a better earner. No I don't salt every driveway they salt there own and salt is visible and only have two.

In your former thread $20 for the drive. I thought the Op was stating he used to keep the elderly clean because this was the way he was brought up.

The OP stated he has the truck to keep his own business clear from snow. He also stated he did not want to cut a local out of the job to not be a low baller.

I told him $40.00 the home is bringing personal income. I also told him he would be beat out by a scab and would not get the job. You don't have to be broke to be a scab. Just means your flying under the radar. You still could have a good performance too.

Everything you do is a risk, The idea is to minimize the risk. You say you carry WC does this concern you at all? Or would you close one eye to this too. I know on my jobs I don't want no loud mouth ball busters on my job that are not safety minded.

The more incidents and increased liability's could prove to put you in trouble when it comes to bidding. The padded closet thing was childish not banter.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Yes this is still America and two people can disagree and still drink beer together.

The minute I began doing work for others, I was insured and have always been so - overly insured probably.

I choose to use the phrase "lone wolf" verses low baller or scab. These guys aren't cutting into my business nor most other business' - sure there's guys out there making a living off 40 driveways and maybe they are leaning into them slightly but I don't seeing them as taking food off my table, just putting a little something extra in their pocket that their employer can't provide. I actually admire a guy that will do that "extra" for some more coin.

This country was built off risk / reward. If that risk for the one driveway was truly that high, than those of us that do a fair amount of work would never be able to be insured - because of the high risk that you are implying. If you maintain a Wal Mart, I think your risk is just a tad higher than Susie's driveway, not just incidents per year but incidents per dollar earned.

Maybe exaggerating somewhat, but IMO based on the amount of exposure I've had over the years, the odds are you'll get eaten by piranhas in the Mississippi river long before you'll have an incident plowing a single driveway.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm all for risk reward.
Financial risk of starting a business.
As soon as you plow for money you have crossed the line, your in business
Doing business as ( insert your name here).

Some make a really good living off of residential.


I've never had a slip fall, but there are other businessmen who have lost their business over just one slip fall. 


The 70's are gone, society has changed,
The tax man is more aggressive ,
People are looking to for a big payday , fake slip fall
No one wants to be responsible even if it's a legit slip fall.

A lot can happen just plowing snow.


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## CraigH (Nov 6, 2014)

Hey guys, just to restate. I already decided to pass on it and let someone, hopefully a legitimate business take the opportunity to plow their drive. I'll stick to my personal and my business, God knows I'm busy enough with my real job, I surely don't need to add to my plate.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

CraigH;2063157 said:


> Hey guys, just to restate. I already decided to pass on it and let someone, hopefully a legitimate business take the opportunity to plow their drive. I'll stick to my personal and my business, God knows I'm busy enough with my real job, I surely don't need to add to my plate.


Good decision and good luck with your current business. I'm sure you don't need no early mornings to clean a new neighbor.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

There, their, they are just key board warriors. Good thing you didn't ask about plow oil/fuild


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## JCPM (Nov 26, 2008)

Not for nothing but most insurance companies will insure you to plow under your regular auto policy at very little extra cost of you are only plowing snow on the side. I'm fully insured as this is part of my business but my father inlaw has been plowing on the side for the past 30 years and his auto insurance has additional coverage for the plow mounted on his truck and basic liability for resi plowing. I think it costs him like $150 a year.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

1olddogtwo;2063162 said:


> There, their, they are just key board warriors. Good thing you didn't ask about plow oil/fuild


Or salt vs liquid


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

framer1901;2063203 said:


> Or salt vs liquid


Wideout vs XLS.....


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Phewwwww, glad that's over with,lol


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

Renters won't care about you like the little old lady did and they could be looking for some reason to not pay rent. I fell and I am hurt, so I can't pay my rent. Pass on this offer.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

CraigH;2063157 said:


> Hey guys, just to restate. I already decided to pass on it and let someone, hopefully a legitimate business take the opportunity to plow their drive. I'll stick to my personal and my business, God knows I'm busy enough with my real job, I surely don't need to add to my plate.


We know, just discussing the pitfalls .



1olddogtwo;2063162 said:


> There, their, they are just key board warriors. Good thing you didn't ask about plow oil/fuild


You are,,:laughing:,,, one of the last ones who should be hurling any stones.
And it would be nice if you could refrain from taking just one thread off topic...


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

SnoFarmer;2063304 said:


> We know, just discussing the pitfalls .
> 
> You are,,:laughing:,,, one of the last ones who should be hurling any stones.
> And it would be nice if you could refrain from taking just one thread off topic...


Whoa....whoa....


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## Browny (Nov 12, 2015)

JCPM;2063189 said:


> Not for nothing but most insurance companies will insure you to plow under your regular auto policy at very little extra cost of you are only plowing snow on the side. I'm fully insured as this is part of my business but my father inlaw has been plowing on the side for the past 30 years and his auto insurance has additional coverage for the plow mounted on his truck and basic liability for resi plowing. I think it costs him like $150 a year.


Craig this is pretty much what I was going to say. Many auto insurance you can do "friends and family" and be covered. Charge them $40 and you get some gas money and they get the service of you're covered.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Browny;2063436 said:


> Craig this is pretty much what I was going to say. Many auto insurance you can do "friends and family" and be covered. Charge them $40 and you get some gas money and they get the service of you're covered.


That is not correct.^ 
First of all, if you buy your own snow plow, you may want to increase your auto insurance coverage to ensure that if something happens your plow will be insured along with your truck.

Some individuals own their own plow but only plow their own drive ways. This is fine and you will probably not need additional coverage. Once you begin to plow the driveways of others is when snow plow insurance might be necessary. You may just want to be neighborly and plow someone's driveway for them. This is ok, because if something were to happen (you knocked over a mailbox, bumped into the house, etc...) your homeowners policy will actually extend to cover that.

But there is one small detail which will exclude your homeowners insurance from covering it... Money. If you accept payment for plowing anther's driveway, you better have snow plow insurance for your truck. There are huge liabilities that are associated with snow plowing. One small example is if you leave a snow pile, it melts some, the runoff turns to ice on the sidewalk, and someone slips and sues. You would be at fault.

from an insurance CO..http://www.divinsurance.com/personal-insurance-blog/bid/245401/When-to-have-Snow-Plow-Insurance

If you own a truck and plow and during the winter months, plow a few people for cash, or do plowing as a full time business, it's important to have snow plow insurance in place.

A personal auto insurance policy typically does not include "for profit" snow plowing activity. If snow plowing for income or operating as a business, you should purchase a commercial policy that covers you for the complete snow plowing operation.

There are two aspects to consider: coverage for damage to the snow plow equipment or truck, and liability associated with damage caused by performing the snow plowing. The other thing with this is hired and non-owned auto coverage. 
https://www.commercialinsurance.net/snow-plow-insurance

But what if you plow the driveway next door because you're a good neighbor and you knock down the mailbox? Not to worry, says Mark Bates, president of Pinnacle Insurance Group of Indiana in Crown Point.

"Your homeowner's insurance would extend to something like that," says Bates, "as long as you're operating in the scope of being neighborly and you're not doing it for compensation ie money."
http://www.consumerinsuranceguide.c...ability-insurance-for-snow-removal-companies/

If after all that, putting a snow plow on your pickup truck to bring in a few extra bucks sounds like a good idea, then by all means go for it. But before plowing that first flake of snow make sure the insurance blanket you have properly covers you.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Y'all are asking the wrong questions. 

Why and how can it take someone 10 minutes to plow a driveway this size?


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Threads like this make me wonder how many people on here really take their own advice. There's no way in hell I'm going to believe that if anyone was asked to bid this place and got their price they'd turn it down. I mean, I'm insured and everything but cmon, like none of you have ever been out and turned down $40(or equivalent) to plow a driveway. I agree with the fact you should be insured and set up properly to do business but anyone who owns a plow isn't turning down $40 for ten minutes or less worth of work


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

The way I see this, the op all ready stated he has passed on the driveway. He says he does not have the time and needs no more on his plate. The $40.00 was just a price for a average drive without lowballing which he did not want to do because of the local businessmen. And he also knows he would not get it because some scab would do it cheaper than that.

I take insurance serious, I took a lot of risk in my life and been lucky. I would like to think at this stage in the game I am beyond that. I don't need no ambulance chasers contacting me over a slip and fall.

In this economy people are looking for a payday and don't think I wanna risk any of my assets over a 25.00 driveway and the OP don't either. Anybody don't want to play the game right and be a scab knock yourself out. Most of the business men around here don't take scabs kindly. You want to play on the snow pile pay like everybody else.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

peteo1;2063540 said:


> Threads like this make me wonder how many people on here really take their own advice. There's no way in hell I'm going to believe that if anyone was asked to bid this place and got their price they'd turn it down. I mean, I'm insured and everything but cmon, like none of you have ever been out and turned down $40(or equivalent) to plow a driveway. I agree with the fact you should be insured and set up properly to do business but anyone who owns a plow isn't turning down $40 for ten minutes or less worth of work


You are insured and agree you should have insurance. What are you trying to say? The average Joe should not. Yes we all made mistakes and took unnecessary risks. In hindsight this was a bad move.


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

I have to wonder, how many started like that... a few residential customers, no insurance and then rolled it over into a fully insured business.. I own a number of business's and a couple of them started out as "privateer" enterprises that grew into full fledged money makers..

Two of my enterprises were fairly high on the liability issue to boot.. No way I could have started out following all the "safe rules".. 

There is an inherent risk to any business and "awareness" of the risk really is important but anyone not willing to take some risk will never work for themselves..


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## JCPM (Nov 26, 2008)

RandallJ;2063677 said:


> I have to wonder, how many started like that... a few residential customers, no insurance and then rolled it over into a fully insured business.. I own a number of business's and a couple of them started out as "privateer" enterprises that grew into full fledged money makers..
> 
> Two of my enterprises were fairly high on the liability issue to boot.. No way I could have started out following all the "safe rules"..
> 
> There is an inherent risk to any business and "awareness" of the risk really is important but anyone not willing to take some risk will never work for themselves..


Probably most of us. Listening to debates like this make me wonder why people take themselves so seriously. There will always be solo guys out there bending the rules to cut costs. That holds true in almost any trade.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;2063527 said:


> Y'all are asking the wrong questions.
> 
> Why and how can it take someone 10 minutes to plow a driveway this size?


With the snowplow shovel of course, union break every five minutes - no problem.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

RandallJ;2063677 said:


> I have to wonder, how many started like that... a few residential customers, no insurance and then rolled it over into a fully insured business.. I own a number of business's and a couple of them started out as "privateer" enterprises that grew into full fledged money makers..
> 
> Two of my enterprises were fairly high on the liability issue to boot.. No way I could have started out following all the "safe rules"..
> 
> There is an inherent risk to any business and "awareness" of the risk really is important but anyone not willing to take some risk will never work for themselves..


1st generation business owners are nuts period.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

RandallJ;2063677 said:


> I have to wonder, how many started like that... a few residential customers, no insurance and then rolled it over into a fully insured business.. I own a number of business's and a couple of them started out as "privateer" enterprises that grew into full fledged money makers..
> 
> Two of my enterprises were fairly high on the liability issue to boot.. No way I could have started out following all the "safe rules"..
> 
> There is an inherent risk to any business and "awareness" of the risk really is important but anyone not willing to take some risk will never work for themselves..


Yes you took the risk when you invested the $300k in yourself when you started in my position. Again we all made mistakes and took risk. This does not mean I want a young fella to make the unnecessary mistakes and risks that I did and others on this site.

If your going and don't have the necessary capitol to be properly insured this is mistake #1 #2 will follow if you survive the storm. I understand what your saying it is not good info to pass down.


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

FredG;2063705 said:


> Yes you took the risk when you invested the $300k in yourself when you started in my position. Again we all made mistakes and took risk. This does not mean I want a young fella to make the unnecessary mistakes and risks that I did and others on this site.
> 
> If your going and don't have the necessary capitol to be properly insured this is mistake #1 #2 will follow if you survive the storm. I understand what your saying it is not good info to pass down.


What I am sort of implying is that a few of the above posts would "appear" to be adverse to a young guy with a truck and enough change to buy a basic plow getting into the business.. (who wants competition right?)

One of my business was an auto repair shop.. Average labor rate $95 an hour.. Average driveway mechanic probably is not quarter of that.. Does he affect my business? probably not.. Do I wish I could work for that? Well yes I do.. it would bury my real competition..
That driveway mechanic is assuming a lot of risk.. his mistake could be a fatality and even if it was not his fault (product defect, some unrelated issue) he could literally end up in a lot of trouble outside of the financial issues..

So I as a fully insured shop with certified techs and top notch equipment have substantial investments.. BUT I started out doing side jobs after my work all day fixing cars for my boss.. not a lick of insurance or coverage should I have made a grievous error on someones car..

Do I discourage these guys? not really, free enterprise includes guys willing to stand out and take some chances. They are also inclined to work pretty hard to succeed. These guys also help contain some of the costs of this service.. A guy charging $100 an hour for something a guy can do for half of that and still make a living is going to put a block on gouging I would think.. On the flip side, you get what you pay for..

This education will fall on the consumer that will think twice before getting a lowball offer.. So this process sort of self regulates.. Cheap labor, cheap experience and cheap product value.. Next year, the guy learns enough to up his rates?

This business appears to be a giant risk all by itself.. dropping six figures on equipment that could end up parked most of the year? scarey stuff.. gotta hand it to you guys.. big ole brass ones for those types of gambles.. 
Me? I have the capitol to start out without too much grief but frankly, I do not have the stomach for it.. (Too comfy with my life as it is) It is most intriguing to see some of the business's built here on "moving snow", in fact, it is something to be really proud of.. Start with a 1/2 ton truck and a basic blade, end up with a full fleet of really great equipment? very cool


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

The cost of entry is very small.
A truck, plow some INSURANCE....

Being an entrepreneur comes with risk.
Unlike truing wrenches, we have a hard time controlling what happens at our clients property, yet we can be held accountable for it.

Cut corners and you could be paying for it for the rest of your life and for what? A few hundred dollars for Insurance.

If you cant afford the cheap entry cost to go into the business world, and be a entrepreneur 
stick to being an employee. There is no shame in that.


Just because some get away with cutting corners doesn't mean you will.

Then what, you have a illegitimate business so your not going to claim it on your taxes ether, so add a audit and your fine for avoiding paying your taxes...

do you have a LLC or the like to shelter your personal assets from litigation. ho wait your intermingling funds and equipment, never mind we can go after it all.

yea, its just plowing a little snow, what could happen...
go for it... get paid in cash,,,, 


bottom line, if you have a family think about them.
then do it right,

welcome to the industry.

ps it sure is easy to tell him to go for it as you share none of his risk


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

SnoFarmer;2063734 said:


> The cost of entry is very small.
> A truck, plow some INSURANCE....
> 
> Being an entrepreneur comes with risk.
> ...


Everyone has to start somewhere.. My start in business could not afford insurance, or even all the proper equipment (in 50 years of business I see many if not most start that way, on a shoestring and out of pocket)..

Off topic LLC? not usually the best idea, S corp allows a LOT more profit retention in most cases along with removing a lot of personal asset risk..

That is one of the BIGGEST errors I have seen in startups.. NO ACCOUNTANT.. Besides myself, he is my most important asset.. I think my advice would be to see one before the first day of business..  *I hate giving my money away to gov't


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

RandallJ;2063725 said:


> What I am sort of implying is that a few of the above posts would "appear" to be adverse to a young guy with a truck and enough change to buy a basic plow getting into the business.. (who wants competition right?)
> 
> One of my business was an auto repair shop.. Average labor rate $95 an hour.. Average driveway mechanic probably is not quarter of that.. Does he affect my business? probably not.. Do I wish I could work for that? Well yes I do.. it would bury my real competition..
> That driveway mechanic is assuming a lot of risk.. his mistake could be a fatality and even if it was not his fault (product defect, some unrelated issue) he could literally end up in a lot of trouble outside of the financial issues..
> ...


I here you. I don't really care about any of guys doing driveways, I only have two small 8 10 unit apartment building and truthfully don't even want them. The part that gets me going is the Landscapers that are fully insured and survive on Resi's.

I have never hated anybody trying to make a coin. As far as equipment, Meaning loaders and pushers they do sit in the off season. My excavators and dump trucks sit most of the time in the winter, Unless I get a water main etc.

As far as risk goes it's on the high side. Experienced operators are not cheap and very hard to find $30 per hr minimal. You got a 40k pound machine with a big pusher on it somebody has to know whats going on. You could slide into something or hit a curb etc. and send a man to the ER. now you got a WC case. Not to mention the curb etc you are repairing at your cost.

Same with trucks, skid, sidewalk machines, Most when beginning just think get the snow off the pavement, Whats so hard about that? Then your moving piles and sending someone packing or trying to teach him.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Yes a LLC is the best for my situation, as it is for most of us.
An LLC is a business structure similar to a sole-proprietorship or a general partnership. According to the IRS, 'It is designed to provide the limited liability features of a corporation and the tax efficiencies and operational flexibility of a partnership.'

One of the features that distinguishes the LLC from an S-Corp is its operational ease. There are far fewer forms required for registering and there are fewer start-up costs. Filing taxes is a once-a-year affair on April 15: a single-member LLC files a 1040 and Schedule C like a sole proprietor; partners in an LLC file a 1065 partnership tax return like owners in a traditional partnership. Moreover, LLCs are not required to have formal meetings and keep minutes.

Yes, you have to start some place, 
Like working for someone else until you save the funds necessary, or get a loan, or investors.

The times have changed from when we started.
This has to be taken into account.
the penalties are more sever and it is very easy to be reported these days with that new new fangeld interdweb AL gore invented. 

if he cant "afford" any of that or he as to cut corners how is he going to afford a CPA?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2063745 said:


> Yes a LLC is the best for my situation, as it is for most of us.
> An LLC is a business structure similar to a sole-proprietorship or a general partnership. According to the IRS, 'It is designed to provide the limited liability features of a corporation and the tax efficiencies and operational flexibility of a partnership.'
> 
> One of the features that distinguishes the LLC from an S-Corp is its operational ease. There are far fewer forms required for registering and there are fewer start-up costs. Filing taxes is a once-a-year affair on April 15: a single-member LLC files a 1040 and Schedule C like a sole proprietor; partners in an LLC file a 1065 partnership tax return like owners in a traditional partnership. Moreover, LLCs are not required to have formal meetings and keep minutes.
> ...


How about the snitch that blows you in because he knows your collecting cash and not officially in business and collects the $500 to 1k for ratting on you.

This stuff is real and not like the mid 70's when you could cheat a little and never hear a word about it.


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

SnoFarmer;2063745 said:


> Yes a LLC is the best for my situation, as it is for most of us.
> An LLC is a business structure similar to a sole-proprietorship or a general partnership. According to the IRS, 'It is designed to provide the limited liability features of a corporation and the tax efficiencies and operational flexibility of a partnership.'
> 
> One of the features that distinguishes the LLC from an S-Corp is its operational ease. There are far fewer forms required for registering and there are fewer start-up costs. Filing taxes is a once-a-year affair on April 15: a single-member LLC files a 1040 and Schedule C like a sole proprietor; partners in an LLC file a 1065 partnership tax return like owners in a traditional partnership. Moreover, LLCs are not required to have formal meetings and keep minutes.
> ...


 Sadly, times are different and the CPA is going to be a major asset to your profitability.. I think today, they are a necessity and they are not as costly as you might think.. The profit retention pays for mine 10x over.. If you are going to generate more than a $75k a year, I do not think you can afford NOT to have one.. (sure some will differ on this but my P&L and checkbook are my measure)

The reason I run S corp are several.. (*cost of incorporation are statistically the same). I think there are some serious misconceptions about financial liability benefits to a basic LLC as most states look at them as sole proprietorships anyway.. Radio ads tend to punk people on the exact benefits of an LLC.. (time for a good accountant to explain all this)

I am not a financial wizard, but I employ one... One of my life principals is to not do everything myself.. find someone that is infinitely better at it than I am and pay them.. I simply steer the ship, not try to operate all of it.. 
Other benefits:
Fiscal year end (End September)
Profit sharing (read: profit retention) and a number of other considerations on expenses as well as collecting a paycheck from yourself. 
As an LLC, you can not write yourself a paycheck due to the sole proprietorship. A good accountant is really key on this choice of business structure..

I think most small privateers are pretty safe from the snitch factor.. far too many resources go into prosecution for the return and unless there is some blatant abuse, the tax guys simply are not going to waste any time on them (been through this before)..

Heck we had a counterfeiter come through one of my stores and know what the law said? "He did not spend enough for us to dedicate any time to them.. if it is over $1500, then call us" bout fell down.. (and now looking for a press of my own)


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

A minute ago you were saying he needs noting, take the risk...
As I said if he can't afford a llc ( for under $100)
Insurance, he's not going to hire a CPA.

Why becuse he is running a illagatmate business,
He'll do none of it,,, just take a risk....

Liability,
What differentiates the LLC is the limit of the liability for which a member is responsible. Typically, the member's investment in the company is that limit. Conversely, a sole proprietor or the partners in a general partnership are each liable for all of the debts of the company. Keep in mind that neither LLCs nor S-Corps necessarily shield owners from their or their employees' tort actions such as accidents. Did I mention you should talk to an attorney?

Ongoing formalities. S corporations face more extensive internal formalities. LLCs are recommended, but not required, to follow internal formalities.

Required formalities for S corporations include: Adopting bylaws, issuing stock, holding initial and annual director and shareholder meetings, and keeping meeting minutes with corporate records.
Recommended formalities for LLCs include: Adopting an operating agreement, issuing membership shares, holding and documenting annual member meetings (and manager meetings, if the LLC is manager-managed), and documenting all major company decisions.

Owners of an LLC can choose to have members (owners) or managers manage the LLC. When members manage an LLC, the LLC is much like a partnership. If run by managers, the LLC more closely resembles a corporation; members will not be involved in the daily business decisions.

The taxman will come after $100 as they will 1 million.
I have been audited have you?
They ended up paying me...HA...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

RandallJ;2063756 said:


> Sadly, times are different and the CPA is going to be a major asset to your profitability.. I think today, they are a necessity and they are not as costly as you might think.. The profit retention pays for mine 10x over.. If you are going to generate more than a $75k a year, I do not think you can afford NOT to have one.. (sure some will differ on this but my P&L and checkbook are my measure)
> 
> The reason I run S corp are several.. (*cost of incorporation are statistically the same). I think there are some serious misconceptions about financial liability benefits to a basic LLC as most states look at them as sole proprietorships anyway.. Radio ads tend to punk people on the exact benefits of an LLC.. (time for a good accountant to explain all this)
> 
> ...


Really. Do you know how many guys been busted for trying to make a little coin on unemployment. I suppose you don't think theirs a bounty. The tax man don't care if your a small time or big time tax crook they want everybody and don't close one eye to nobody we are all just a number to them. I hope your CPA did not tell you this.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

But you do write yourself a pay check with a llc.
As an active owner-operator of an LLC, you have the option of paying yourself wages as an employee of the LLC or simply paying yourself profits as a member of the LLC. The LLC generally pays wages on a regular basis as the employee performs the work, while the LLC does not distribute profits to members until the end of the year. Members can, however, pull periodic draws from the LLC. A draw is basically an early withdrawal of anticipated year-end profits.

Right, the treasury didn't go after a countifiter.....
One, It's a felony they love catching fellons. Grand larceny starts at only $500.
And you just took the hit, I don't think so...

All it takes is a call or a e-mail and this county and city that I live in will investgat, to see of you have a business They will fine you and shut you down if you don't

Any way, most encourage him to just go out plowing.
Why would he do everything else that was suggested ?

Paging,Mr.Moot.


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

SnoFarmer;2063777 said:


> Right, the treasury didn't go after a countifiter.....
> One, It's a felony they love catching fellons. Grand larceny starts at only $500.
> And you just took the hit, I don't think so...


No they don't actually, they log the serial # and stick it on a map, they only track distribution of said notes.. The problem with prosecution is proving that the guy "knew" it was counterfeit when he handed it too you. "Oh I got this at another store" is all they need to say..

SOP is return the bill to the bank, fill out the form and take the loss...

End of story.. sucks, but that is the way it works


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

i's being sarcastic...
Around hear if you pass a counterfeit bill it's in the news,
the security footage is on the news, and the word it out...
their look'en for ya.

I had a FBI agent as a instructor in the academy.
the S.S. will investigate .

When they catch you...
You can give any story you wish, 
do you really think they believe you when you say,
Ho, I must have got'ten it at another store???
really,
The counterfeit money is evidence in a crime and needs to be preserved. Investigators may need to examine the bill for fingerprints or other forensic evidence to aid in the capture and prosecution of the counterfeiters.

they get a thing called a "search warrant" and look for evidence. this evidence could be in your car, home, shed,
computer, printer, paper, etc etc.

it's a felony, they just dont put a tack in a map...


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

framer1901;2063692 said:


> 1st generation business owners are nuts period.


Spoken like a true whack job 

I just ran insurance numbers on one site.. 
Standalone "basic" coverage with 25k limits is under $300 a year.. 1M umbrella, under $1000..

My current business policy will take on the "plow truck" for $125 a year..

How would I do it? probably run naked through the streets screaming bloody murder, people run out, fall down and sue their homeowners policy..

meanwhile, I plow the drive so the ambulance and lawyers can get to the front door.. I will rely on donations from kind hearted others to put gas in the tank.. nuts you say?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

RandallJ;2065074 said:


> Spoken like a true whack job
> 
> I just ran insurance numbers on one site..
> Standalone "basic" coverage with 25k limits is under $300 a year.. 1M umbrella, under $1000..
> ...


The Op has made his decision and posted above, Ok you got to your first step, You got some reasonable ins. quotes.

This post is way off topic! Retail stores, Auto repair shops, counterfeiters, Retirement by the way already done that, 1st generation biz owners. Medical facility's, PO suing there HO policy etc.

Is there anything else you would like to know about completed snow operations?? Start a new post if there is. It's not fare to the op with these threads filling his email up.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

^^^adding a plow truck for only $125 a year ?
It sounds like a number picked right out of the air...
uhmm,,, I wonder why it costs the rest of us so much more?
Because we are not insuring just the plow truck, we are acquiring,
snow plow/ commercial INS.



FredG;2065158 said:


> Is there anything else you would like to know about completed snow operations?? Start a new post if there is. It's not fare to the op with these threads filling his email up.


you dont have to be notified every time someone posts....


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2065165 said:


> ^^^adding a plow truck for only $125 a year ?
> It sounds like a number picked right out of the air...
> uhmm,,, I wonder why it costs the rest of us so much more?
> Because we are not insuring just the plow truck, we are acquiring,
> ...


 LoL forgot, I'm old and board, Just trying to get it back on topic.


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

SnoFarmer;2065165 said:


> ^^^adding a plow truck for only $125 a year ?
> It sounds like a number picked right out of the air...
> uhmm,,, I wonder why it costs the rest of us so much more?
> Because we are not insuring just the plow truck, we are acquiring,
> ...


This is a rider to put the plow on our regular policy for our own use.. This does not cover commercial use..

The other policy quotes are for going commercial.. 1 truck owner/operated as would be the case with a new guy starting out. (Progressive Auto Insurance for our area).. I did not run other zip codes but I suppose it is possible if not likely an area with 12' of snow a year might be a lot higher..

Also, non owner operated might also see higher rates..


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

so you BOP is going to supply the Workmans comp?

Yes, your BOP may be a good fit for your snow plow business. The policies will often include general liability insurance, loss of income and other various coverage options for your business including property insurance.

as I suspected $125 is just for your truck..
Includes Comprehensive and Collision coverage and can protect you if your pickup truck collides with another object or rolls or is stolen 

There are two aspects to consider: coverage for damage to the snow plow equipment or truck, and liability associated with damage caused by performing the snow plowing. slip fall, etc, etc. The other thing with this is hired and non-owned auto coverage.

Sounds like your on your way to be insured.

Are you still saving money and time?


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

SnoFarmer;2065192 said:


> so you BOP is going to supply the Workmans comp?
> 
> Yes, your BOP may be a good fit for your snow plow business. The policies will often include general liability insurance, loss of income and other various coverage options for your business including property insurance.
> 
> ...


 Starting at <$400 a year, we get commercial plow coverage and can do other lots..

Am I? nope.. was not part of the original plan to cull our current expenses.. Is it an option? well when I see what the current going rate is around here, it certainly is tempting..  FWIW, $85 an hour (hour minimum) is what our contract states for a P/U truck

From what I can gather, our rates are astronomical.. I would probably account this to the fact that we have limited days operators can recover the cost of their equipment (business is business) and I can not fault them a bit for it.. It does however open the door to property owners like ourselves to get into doing our own lots..

Looking at one of our bills from January, we paid $458 for a lot that is 17,000 square feet.. I am betting you guys can do this lot in under half an hour (I did half the lot with my 2 stage in an hour when the truck was late)

They also billed us for 18 bags of salt (assuming these are 50#?) That is 900lbs on a quarter acre? I think we got a bit gouged here..

Keeping in mind these were the lowest bidders we have had in no less than the last 5 years.... 
If you have to recover the cost of equipment, you gotta have rates that go with the number of snow days?
Yes?


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

RandallJ;2065236 said:


> Starting at <$400 a year, we get commercial plow coverage and can do other lots..
> 
> Am I? nope.. was not part of the original plan to cull our current expenses.. Is it an option? well when I see what the current going rate is around here, it certainly is tempting..  FWIW, $85 an hour (hour minimum) is what our contract states for a P/U truck
> 
> ...


You'll get a lot of comments on that pricing and numbers but unless someone is in your area, they really can't speak to costs..

One thing I've learned over the years is "price" presentation and no offense meant but when you speak of what you were charged and amount of salt in January - you have to look at the number of events and really should focus on the amount charged per night, amount of salt applied per night etc....

We've all sent some very large bills some months, we don't put the snow on the ground, we just make it go away.

If you spend 1k a year on plowing, you have to think about equipment costs, maintaining it and worst of all - getting up to deal with it - I can tell you it gets old real quick, until you start depositing checks.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

At least this stayed on topic :waving:


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

framer1901;2065644 said:


> You'll get a lot of comments on that pricing and numbers but unless someone is in your area, they really can't speak to costs..
> 
> One thing I've learned over the years is "price" presentation and no offense meant but when you speak of what you were charged and amount of salt in January - you have to look at the number of events and really should focus on the amount charged per night, amount of salt applied per night etc....
> 
> ...


The January bill was for 1 event..


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

RandallJ;2066034 said:


> The January bill was for 1 event..




I'd be looking at other companies, mid size ones that have been around for a bit. With honest pricing, I just don't think a business owner would long term justify doing it themselves - the hassle involved. If it's only you in the building, you're there every day anyways, then I can see it - heck a 1/2 ton truck and a small straight blade with no skills will take you less than a hour - the salting is different but I suppose that depends on whats in the building.............


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## RandallJ (Nov 25, 2015)

Well we are a year later and things going well... That first truck did it's job and took a few $$ in updates and repairs.. All that said, 6 snow events on the year (other words, not much snow), the balance books came out in favor of the purchase. Without the spreader, it would have been a wash, ice it seems fills in a lot of income gaps here..

This year looks like it may bring a lot more snow and so....

I tied in with the guys that take care of my lawns and am going to provide my 98 Chev as well as a shiny new 2016 Chev 2500 that came in under $40k with a BossV and spreader that should be ready in about 10 days.. 

I found a few used trucks but the price difference to a new one simply did not make sense.. $5-7k savings for a truck with 50k on the odometer did not add up for me.. Not sure if it is the market I am in or what, but appears that used trucks are pretty valuable here..

(And FWIW, still cleaning my neighbors driveway for free)


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