# Any Idea how much?



## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

I'm trying to get an idea of how much it would cost to plow and salt these properties. I'd like to get a rough estimate to compare it with how much we actually spend. We do all the snow removal in house. The first location is used 7 days a week and the remainder locations are used 5 days a week. They are located in Central Ohio, acreage totals about 15 acres, and we have a zero tolerance. What do you think?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Are you trying to figure out if it cheaper to sub it out or keep it in house?


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

I'm pretty sure we can provide all the services in house cheaper than having someone come in and do them. The quality of service won't be as good due to the fact that I'm on site 5 days of the week and can respond to problem areas quickly. I'm curious how much we are saving by doing it in house.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Treedoc32;859186 said:


> I'm pretty sure we can provide all the services in house cheaper than having someone come in and do them. The quality of service won't be as good due to the fact that I'm on site 5 days of the week and can respond to problem areas quickly. I'm curious how much we are saving by doing it in house.


I never give estimates by pictures.

I'd also be willing to bet that it would much cheaper to hire a reputable contractor.


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

Ok. What I meant to say, I don't expect the quality of service from an outside contractor to be better than what we provide in house due to our being on site 5 days a week.


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## Advantage (Nov 7, 2007)

I can think of many sites, school districts for example, who provide snow removal in-house and have people on site all the time. Their quality of service is absolutely not up to par with a reputable contractor's level of service.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

ONE MILLION DOLLARS!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Treedoc32;859220 said:


> Ok. What I meant to say, I don't expect the quality of service from an outside contractor to be better than what we provide in house due to our being on site 5 days a week.


Sorry, I don't buy that either.

A reputable contractor's butt would be on the line. And as long as you're willing to pay for it, there will be one that can\could fulfill your requirements less expensive than in-house. Because a contractor HAS to make a profit, you don't. So they will find the most efficient equipment and materials to do the job.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

And don't forget they are not union too.


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## Mike S (Feb 11, 2007)

I will throw a ball park est for an old friend! Ive seen most of the lots and I would have to say 8-10 ton of salt per app, which puts it at about $2500 for salt on the low end. Plow would be between $4800 and $9800 depending on snow. Im just saying $4800 for a 2 inch and $9800 for a 6 inch.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

$225,000 plus salt


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

Thanks for the numbers!

I still believe we can do a better job and less expensive in house than a contractor. We are a church, school, non union, zero tolerance expectation, and not working for a profit. Our focus is clearing the lots and walks as quick as possible with the least amount of expense. We have a tight snow plan, dependable equipment (check out our equipment on my profile), and a good team of seven. When it snows we drop our normal daily responsibilities and focus on the clearing the lots and walks. After everything is cleared everyone goes back to their daily responsibilities. Three of us do all touch ups and salting. The best part of it all is we get to have fun doing it.:redbounce 

Our budget for snow removal averages around $30,000/year. This includes salt, liquid deicer (our new tool), and equipment (amortized out over 4yrs).

I'm not saying the contractors aren't good, there are quite a few top notch contractors in our area. I know that they would not be able to cater to the many events we have at the church and school many of which our service staff are involved with and at a moment notice can be salting walks or plowing. 

We're in the business of saving money not making it.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

But if you were to add labor cost it would be higher then 30k . But you are figuring they work there already so your not counting labor,correct?


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

Your right. I'm not including labor because we normally there anyways between the hours of 6am and 5pm. On average, we will start snow removal around 5am depending on snow event and have our priority 1 area done by 8am. We do have one guy that comes in specifically for snow removal but he also works at the church. The only extra labor would be overtime. Sometimes, some of the guys will take time off as comp time on their own. Since I oversee the whole operation, I tend to spend to much time there as my wife would tell you. 

As I mentioned before, we have a snow plan. In that snow plan we have set up priorities for during the week (during school) and weekends (church). For example, during the week we clear all the lots and walks (at all locations) and only salt the areas where people are walking, parking and driving. On Sundays, we focus first on the main location clearing and salting all lots and and walks. Then at our leisure we clear the remaining locations so they will be ready for school the next day.

The main location is pretty much used 7 days a week from about 6am until 10 to 11pm. We do get a little break around Christmas break.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Treedoc32;859186 said:


> I'm pretty sure we can provide all the services in house cheaper than having someone come in and do them. The quality of service won't be as good due to the fact that I'm on site 5 days of the week and can respond to problem areas quickly. I'm curious how much we are saving by doing it in house.


Why bother with a question that pretty much no one in here can answer. If you want to find out just waste some ones time,...oops I meant get a few quotes and compare the numbers.


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

> Originally Posted by Brian Young
> Why bother with a question that pretty much no one in here can answer. If you want to find out just waste some ones time,...oops I meant get a few quotes and compare the numbers.


I have ask a few contractors for quotes. I also told them upfront why I wanted the quote so as not to waste their time. I know time is money. Nothing worse than asking for a quote and then telling them no thanks we already do it in house. That is why I posted pictures and asked for a rough estimate.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

How much do you plan on spending for salt?


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## Mike S (Feb 11, 2007)

I know I would not make the 30k budget! LOL!!!


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

This year we spent $3709 for salt and $570 on liquid. We only use around 40 tons per year. I'm sure we will be getting more liquid later in the season. On average, we only have about 17 snow events a year to which we salt as needed.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Treedoc32;860039 said:


> I have ask a few contractors for quotes. I also told them upfront why I wanted the quote so as not to waste their time. I know time is money. Nothing worse than asking for a quote and then telling them no thanks we already do it in house. That is why I posted pictures and asked for a rough estimate.


Are you prepared to pay for a quote?


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

All right Johnny, you charging for quotes? I like that idea, wont fly here but I like it. When ever there is a muni call for tenders, they actually charge us for the bid papers :realmad:
Could be anywhere from $25 -$100 what a rip off.


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

JohnnyRoyale;860226 said:


> Are you prepared to pay for a quote?


:laughing:No, it's not in the budget.



> Originally Posted by *JohnnyRoyale*
> ONE MILLION DOLLARS!


However, I wouldn't mind splitting 1 million dollars 6 ways to do the job.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I have a "Snow Plan" also, it's hard to follow some days.

Here it is - #1 - Pray employees answer the phone in the morning.
#2 - Try not to strangle employees by 8:00a.m.
#3 - When we're done, ask self - "Why the f... am I still doing this!!"


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

WIPensFan;860253 said:


> I have a "Snow Plan" also, it's hard to follow some days.
> 
> Here it is - #1 - Pray employees answer the phone in the morning.
> #2 - Try not to strangle employees by 8:00a.m.
> #3 - When we're done, ask self - "Why the f... am I still doing this!!"


:laughing:In the past, I think I may have worked with some of your employees. I'm definately glad for the most part I don't have to deal with that anymore.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Neige;860241 said:


> All right Johnny, you charging for quotes? I like that idea, wont fly here but I like it. When ever there is a muni call for tenders, they actually charge us for the bid papers :realmad:
> Could be anywhere from $25 -$100 what a rip off.


I wish I could charge for quotes. I too pay for bid documents.

The OP is basically acknowledging that he realizes time is money, yet calls other contractors out to justify his numbers or his position-he's not willing to pay for the experience is what I'm getting at, but rather do things on the cheap, and waste everyones time.

He posts some pics up, and wants numbers. You know as well as I do, its impossible to give him any numbers online without taking the numerous variables into account. He then goes on to state his budget doesnt include hourly wages-so whats he comparing then?

I dont know about you Paul, but I dont have the desire to entertain anyone I dont know at my expense.

I wasnt expecting any other answer from him than what he posted to my question.

A true cost analysis would prove his position wrong. He's not utilizing the most efficient equipment for the job. I guess if your not figuring the wages into the equation it doesnt matter then.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JohnnyRoyale;860279 said:


> I wish I could charge for quotes. I too pay for bid documents.
> 
> The OP is basically acknowledging that he realizes time is money, yet calls other contractors out to justify his numbers or his position-he's not willing to pay for the experience is what I'm getting at, but rather do things on the cheap, and waste everyones time.
> 
> ...


And we just thought you were a pretty face. 

That's why I didn't bother, I knew where this was going. Just didn't think the OP would be as disingenuous as not figuring labor costs in to his costs.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;860317 said:


> That's why I didn't bother,.


I oftentimes fell the same.


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *JohnnyRoyale*
> _The OP is basically acknowledging that he realizes time is money, yet calls other contractors out to justify his numbers or his position-he's not willing to pay for the experience is what I'm getting at, but rather do things on the cheap, and waste everyones time_.


For the record, no one took me up on coming out to give me a quote. That is why I posted it on here.



> Originally Posted by *JohnnyRoyale*
> _He posts some pics up, and wants numbers. You know as well as I do, its impossible to give him any numbers online without taking the numerous variables into account. He then goes on to state his budget doesnt include hourly wages-so whats he comparing then_


Your right, it's impossible to get a fair comparison without the hourly wages. So, I went back and looked at the time we have spent both plowing and salting and the times we just salted and calculated approximately how much we spend on wages. The number I came up with is $33,575 assuming all the hours are overtime. That is 1343 man hours per year .

On average we get 28" of snow in Columbus. For an average year we both plow and salt 17 times per year and just salt an additional 17 times per year. We are *not* salting everything only the areas that are being used.

I did forget to include our cost for sidewalk deicing material which is $2000.

So, from what I can figure (unless I'm missing something) our total expenditures for snow removal is $65,575 per year.

I've also attached our snow log for last year.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Treedoc32;860342 said:


> For the record, no one took me up on coming out to give me a quote. That is why I posted it on here..


I figured that. Nobody in their right mind would take time out of his day to come out and see you and tour the properties and calculate approximations on material usage, equipment allocations, etc (for free) knowing that you are using them for comparison purposes.

Nobody on here (PS) could give you an accurate or even ballpark number without knowing exactly which areas require which service. Your best bet is consider the possibilities of hiring a contractor, and prepapring a set of specifications, along with site maps, and put the project up for bids, then decide from there if it is feasible or not. Good luck with that.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Treedoc32;860342 said:


> Your right, it's impossible to get a fair comparison without the hourly wages. So, I went back and looked at the time we have spent both plowing and salting and the times we just salted and calculated approximately how much we spend on wages. The number I came up with is $33,575 assuming all the hours are overtime. That is 1343 man hours per year.


There is alot more to the cost of labor than wages.

Besides, what are these people _supposed_ to be doing instead of plowing snow?


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## Treedoc32 (Dec 5, 2004)

[B said:


> JohnnyRoyale[/B];860480]
> _Nobody on here (PS) could give you an accurate or even ballpark number without knowing exactly which areas require which service. Your best bet is consider the possibilities of hiring a contractor, and prepapring a set of specifications, along with site maps, and put the project up for bids, then decide from there if it is feasible or not. Good luck with that_.


Thanks for your suggestion.



> Originally Posted by *cretebaby*
> _There is alot more to the cost of labor than wages.
> 
> Besides, what are these people supposed to be doing instead of plowing snow? _


I realize that, but how do you figure that part out when its all tied into your job responsibilities? We are all equals until it snows, then I take lead over operations.

2 of us ground maintenance, 4 building maintenance, and 1 part-time media department


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## planedriver (Nov 17, 2009)

*Huh?*

On a large farm here and joined to put in my 2 cents worth here. We have more horsepower here than your average battleship. I contract snow removal from a reputable company and love it.

You should do the same instead of wasting time doing feasability studies (probably for some presentation to people who pretend to get it based on skued information. Just get the guy who knows what he is doing and let him break his equipment, get up at 3AM, make the lease payment on special equipment that is not in your line of work and most of all, if you are church based...... Solicit your congregation members for bids and referals. It's going to be cheaper and you are going to be helping one of your own while saving many, many soft dollars.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

planedriver;863807 said:


> On a large farm here and joined to put in my 2 cents worth here. We have more horsepower here than your average battleship. I contract snow removal from a reputable company and love it.
> 
> You should do the same instead of wasting time doing feasability studies (probably for some presentation to people who pretend to get it based on skued information. Just get the guy who knows what he is doing and let him break his equipment, get up at 3AM, make the lease payment on special equipment that is not in your line of work and most of all, if you are church based...... Solicit your congregation members for bids and referals. It's going to be cheaper and you are going to be helping one of your own while saving many, many soft dollars.


Well, you know that, I know that, and a few others understand what you're saying, but the OP really doesn't understand his true costs.


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