# Tractor/Blower Set Up



## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

I've been reading the "switching to snowblowing thread" for a couple years now. I love the idea and my plan is to implement this service next year.

My service area has a lot of homes/subdivisions that this plan would "seemingly" work well in.

My purpose for this thread is to identify the reasons why a "tractor/blower set up" would "not" work.

From reading the thread above, I feel like this would work well. But I do not want to be narrow-sided. If you feel that this idea would not work, please post in this thread as I did not want to hi-jack the other thread.

Thank you very much.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Depends on what you end up buying; just has to be capable, reliable, and warm. Think they cost big bucks, so there's a big commitment.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

One of the problems I see is that in order to be profitable, you must have quite a few customers at a very low rate. The only piece of equipment that can handle that volume of drives in a timely manner is the tractor/blower, so if the tractor, or blower goes down or the person that runs it goes down, you now have a big problem. Maybe the dealer that sells you the tractor would give you a loaner if yours breaks for some reason? Or maybe you can fix these types of equipment? Whatever the case, that would be one of my biggest worries.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

WIPensFan;1898413 said:


> One of the problems I see is that in order to be profitable, you must have quite a few customers at a very low rate. The only piece of equipment that can handle that volume of drives in a timely manner is the tractor/blower, so if the tractor, or blower goes down or the person that runs it goes down, you now have a big problem. Maybe the dealer that sells you the tractor would give you a loaner if yours breaks for some reason? Or maybe you can fix these types of equipment? Whatever the case, that would be one of my biggest worries.


Well your spot on with this. If your using a tractor/blower set up, then you are inherently selling 'against' the idea of using a plow. You need to convince your customers that 'plowing' a driveway is a horrible idea. My entire marketing plan was based against the plow guys. With all that said, if you only have one tractor and it breaks down, then you cannot show up and plow the driveways. Doing that would decimate the entire business model and ruin your proof of concept for the customers.

I had an extra tractor, just as good/new as all the others, sitting there ready to go 100% of the time as a back up for the specific reason. Yea its expensive, but if your going to be serious about creating a brand and a customer experience, then its a necessity. I also would not operate one myself, so that incase an operator called out I would be able to fill his role quickly. Its one thing to find a friend/acquaintance who knows how to plow and throw them in a truck on a lot to get by for a storm. Running these tractors is a WHOLE different game and takes a decent amount of skill. Its not something you can find a back up for 12 hours before the snow flies...

Another tough hurdle you will need to expect to encounter is gaining the density needed to achieve profitability. The issue with the tractors are ground speed. Driving a mile away in a truck to the next driveway isn't that big of a deal, but with a tractor it is a huge issue...

Think of it this way, since your selling a seasonal service to these driveway customers, you need to give them specific parameters/expectations so they know what they are buying. By this I mean that they need to know how long between services during a storm. When do you start? Will I be cleared by 7am? etc.. If you give a route cycle of 4 hours, and plan on doing lets say 150 driveways, then you only have 1.6 minutes per driveway, with NO drive time. If there is ONE single screw up, break down, slow operator, more adverse than usual conditions, etc then every minute of time lost due to lack of efficiency tightens that service time per driveway significantly. I mean if you had a breakdown that took an hour to resolve, plus say 1 minute drive time between your average customer (at least in the first couple years) then your already down to 30 seconds or less of service time for each driveway.

The scheduling and routing planning can become so detailed with this, when its brought to scale, that you even need to consider that homes on busy streets will take significantly more time. It was to the point where I would refuse homes on busy streets. Sitting at the end of the driveway waiting for cars to drive-by so you can finish it can easily eat up a half hour during a typical route cycle.. This is just another example of things you need to consider in your planning.

I'm just throwing numbers at the wall here, really just to illustrate how easily a reasonable route on paper can become a logistical nightmare in the real world.

I'm not saying the tractor/blower residential concept is bad, in fact I think its great, however its not as easy as I see a lot of people on here assume. That is if you want to do it perfectly and cover all your bases with solid planning and execution.

I have spent a lot of time figuring out the calculations and various metrics of the driveway biz, and now I'm not longer in the snow game, so I'm pretty loose lipped when it comes to this stuff now. Feel free to ask anything.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I think the tractor blower topic on plowsite is equal to the ctl/forestry head topic on lawnsite. For some reason people just want to jump on the band wagon and do it to. 
A tractor and blower will cost you 60k easy. Go buy a new truck with leather seats.


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## dcamp824 (Dec 21, 2009)

I would agree with last post it would have to be a powerful and good size setup that cost's a lot. we went with skid/blower setups in a couple subdivision's we do this year and although it is Def better then trucks are for drives, we just got a wet heavy snowfall and the skid blowers just were not working to great.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

WIPensFan;1898413 said:


> One of the problems I see is that in order to be profitable, you must have quite a few customers at a very low rate. The only piece of equipment that can handle that volume of drives in a timely manner is the tractor/blower, so if the tractor, or blower goes down or the person that runs it goes down, you now have a big problem. Maybe the dealer that sells you the tractor would give you a loaner if yours breaks for some reason? Or maybe you can fix these types of equipment? Whatever the case, that would be one of my biggest worries.


Pricing isn't a deterrent for me...i'm not mechanically sound with tractors; but there are quite a few dealers in my area. 24/7? No...but you have said some things that will make me go back to my dealers and ask questions. Thanks, this is exactly what I need.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

merrimacmill;1898470 said:


> Well your spot on with this. If your using a tractor/blower set up, then you are inherently selling 'against' the idea of using a plow. You need to convince your customers that 'plowing' a driveway is a horrible idea. My entire marketing plan was based against the plow guys. With all that said, if you only have one tractor and it breaks down, then you cannot show up and plow the driveways. Doing that would decimate the entire business model and ruin your proof of concept for the customers.
> 
> I had an extra tractor, just as good/new as all the others, sitting there ready to go 100% of the time as a back up for the specific reason. Yea its expensive, but if your going to be serious about creating a brand and a customer experience, then its a necessity. I also would not operate one myself, so that incase an operator called out I would be able to fill his role quickly. Its one thing to find a friend/acquaintance who knows how to plow and throw them in a truck on a lot to get by for a storm. Running these tractors is a WHOLE different game and takes a decent amount of skill. Its not something you can find a back up for 12 hours before the snow flies...
> 
> ...


My initial thought wasn't to sell customers on a blower/over a truck. I see the selling benefits of that; but what you alluded to i.e. equipment failure, is exactly why I wouldn't use that sales approach. Is that a bad idea on my part???

my streets are pretty low key, not much traffic at all; plenty of room to blow snow,etc. but again, I don't want to be narrow-minded here which is why this post exists.

i'm not worried about the scheduling/routing; I'm confident in this aspect but something great that you pointed out.

Route density is the only thing i'm concerned...but not heavily. I am confident I can acquire a dense route with what we have now to plow; plus next year's marketing strategy. what i'm concerned about is the best price to attain a large than usual response with our traditional prices...

Thanks for the thought buddy...please keep it coming.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

newhere;1898473 said:


> I think the tractor blower topic on plowsite is equal to the ctl/forestry head topic on lawnsite. For some reason people just want to jump on the band wagon and do it to.
> A tractor and blower will cost you 60k easy. Go buy a new truck with leather seats.


we use 3 trucks right now for residentials...the reason I"m thinking tractors is to increase efficiency while reducing risk, i.e., less trucks/equipment out, less labor, etc...

I don't want "another" truck. I purchased this fall what I hope is the last "brand new" truck for "plowing." but we'll see...


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## djagusch (Oct 15, 2007)

Took over a biz about 30 mins from you that tried this idea. He went belly up for taking on too much debt, etc.

Anyways some conversations I had with his customers about the negative side of it. Complaints about the noise of it dropping on the concrete skirt, scraps on the seal coat (I know it's bs), and the big one is end of the driveways (the tractor couldn't get then end clear due to the angle of the driveway to the street, I heard this the most).

He was using a matoba (spelling) and a Erskine inverted blower.

They want blowing in this town. I went with a s205 skid and a 78 inch erksine blower. Doing 130 driveways in 4 hrs or so. It use it to blow back piles also. Skid is used during the summer.

If you have a use for a tractor during the summer it's one thing. If you don't then...


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

How do you blow the snow pile by the driveway door and not leave any piles with the skidsteer blower pulling in vs dragging out?


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

A little information about my company in an effort to give you some sound advice.

Been in the business for 23 years. Started out doing driveways and added commercial after a couple of years. I choose to use 100% seasonal snowplowing contracts for residential work. I have a full time job, so the snowplowing business equipment is used solely for snowplowing.

On the high end I have had over 350 homes in a season, utilizing 6 trucks(all in-house equipment) with both front and rear plows. I used to be in the construction business, but seven years ago I started working as a consultant, so I ramped down my plowing operations to concentrate more on consulting work. I got rid of all my trucks and plows with the exception of one and plowed 45 to 60 driveways from 2008-2011. I kept the truck and snowplowing business for my oldest son, in case he wanted to take over the work, once he was old enough. 

In 2011 we got hit with a massive blizzard so I bought a front and rear plow for my work truck, as a back-up, just in case. In 2012 I had a slow 4 months of consulting work and decided to try and rebuild my snowplowing business. After much debate and research I decided to purchase a AG tractor and blower to help boost my business. In the summer of 2012 my consulting work tripled and I worked pretty much 300 hours a month through the month of December, most of the work was out of state, so I never go a chance to utilize the Tractor/blower combination in the 2012/2013 season. 

Last winter I purchased a Normand blower for the tractor and used it 24 times in total for the 2013/2014 season. As of now, I have 1 M110 Tractor/blower set-up, 1 Jeep Wrangler with front and rear plows and 1 Chevy Silverado with front and rear plows.

Here is some of my insight regarding my experience with trucks vs AG tractors.

1.) A plow truck is limited to 40 to 60 driveways(4 to 6 hour turn around times). The deeper the snow the longer it takes to complete your route. This is a very important fact when you get the 6 to 12" storms, if you can't complete your route, in your allotted time frame, you will loose customers. Keep in mind my routes are anywhere from 28 miles down to 16 miles as of the 2014/2015 season. The Jeep serviced 42 driveways in a 16 mile radius in about 4 to 5 hours, depending on the storm. If the snow was deeper that 6" the route jumped up to 5 to 6 hours and or more. Regardless of the density of my route, within reason, the plow truck is maxed out at 60 driveways, this is due to the fact that you have to plan for heavier snows. If you don't plan for heavier snows and overbook your routes, you will fail and loose customers.

2.) A new plow truck(Jeep) set-up costs $30k for the truck and another $8K to set it up for snow, i.e. plows, lights, etc.

3.) My tractor/blower set up last year serviced 64 driveways in just over 3 hours and 20 minutes, the very first time I used it. I got it down to 2 hours and 30 minutes or so, for the rest of the events. This is the 28 mile route so almost half the time in the route is driving time, not blowing time. Keeping on the theme that every year your route density should decrease, the tractor/blower set-up should easily be capable of servicing 150 driveways in a four hour span, regardless of the depth of snow. So you effectively can increase your customer base by over 200% by using a Tractor/Blower set-up. 

4.) M110 Kubota Tractor was $70k, the blower was $13k, plus 2k for hoses and 2k for front weights.

5.) I believe that the Jeep Wrangler/front and rear plow set-up is the best for residential driveway plowing. The Tractor/Blower combo, blows the Jeep combo away. It took me about 30 minutes, that's how long it took me to realize the tractor combo was the right choice for me.

6.) I would rather spend $87k on one tractor to potentially generate $440*150= $66,000 vs. 3 Jeep Wrangler set-ups costing $114,000 to potentially generate $440*135=$59,400. Keep in mind the Tractor and Jeep both have the potential to do more driveways, but the Tractor driveway ratio will win over trucks, with increased density. All that means is that the Tractor/combo will make you more money in the long run vs. a truck.

7.) The tractor/blower combo scrapes better that any plow I have ever used in my lifetime. I have the composite edges and shoes on my Normand. The Normand also has the rear hydraulic arm.

8.) The tractor/blower combo is way more agile that my Jeep. I can maneuver this tractor into almost any area, with ease and with great visibility. Keep in mind my tractor is huge and it is still easier to maneuver than my Jeep.

9.) The Tractor/blower combo will save you dollars on both ends of the spectrum, i.e. using less equipment and labor, while increasing your revenue. 

10.) The Tractor/blower set-up will out last any plow truck combo period. At the time of re-sale the tractor blower will sell for half what I paid for it with only 1500-2500 hours on it, while the three trucks that I had to buy to match the tractor will be worth far less and beat to ****! 

Some other small comments I have on my tractor/blower set-up.

-I seem to snow blow my route faster with deeper storms. Why I don't know exactly, but maybe I try to be to neat and tidy with light 1 1/2 to 3" storms.

-You need to be careful with the blower shute stream! The snow force can damage property if not carful(i.e. mail boxes, light poles, etc.).

-If I had my way I would like a tractor one step down from the M110 if the said piece of equipment had push button shifting!! 

-The tractor eats less fuel than my trucks do in a given event.

-If you are a one truck show and don't want to grow that much, then the AG tractor/blower combo may not be for you. But if your looking to make serious money in the residential plowing business and your market conditions are right, you would be crazy not to think about purchasing a AG tractor/blower combo.

Sorry for the long reply, hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Chuck B.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Chuck, and thanks Rich for creating this thread. I am weighing in all pros and cons for my setup here, like you mentioned Rich I also have the availability to pick up so much residential work for snow removal it's insane. This season we received over 15-20 calls for more driveways but I am already booked up solid doing my 40 driveways plus 15 lots. If I go about the tractor/blower setup I just need to target specific neighborhoods with tight groupings. As of right now to go through 20 driveways which is half our residential route its 35 min drive time not including plowing or shoveling or regular traffic on the road. Its a toss up whether to go all commercial or continue doing both. I would love to do both, but I want to make all my residential work seasonal contracts and not by the push based on the snowfall totals. If I end up going tractor/blower I am looking at the Kubota M100 or possibly go all hydro with the Kubota L6060. I also been looking at a few John Deere and New Holland, but the Kubota dealer is the closet to me. What are your thoughts? Also my biggest concern is if the tractor does go down everyone is use to having it snow blown that when a truck shows up with a plow they may go crazy and argue with me over the fact we guarantee everything to be snow blown and they would want some type of refund. The only way around that is to have another tractor/blower laying around as backup which costs way to much or do it the traditional way and have a few guys with walk behind blowers go out and take care of the route which would take a stupid amount of time.


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

Enzo;1899617 said:


> Thanks for the reply Chuck, and thanks Rich for creating this thread. I am weighing in all pros and cons for my setup here, like you mentioned Rich I also have the availability to pick up so much residential work for snow removal it's insane. This season we received over 15-20 calls for more driveways but I am already booked up solid doing my 40 driveways plus 15 lots. If I go about the tractor/blower setup I just need to target specific neighborhoods with tight groupings. As of right now to go through 20 driveways which is half our residential route its 35 min drive time not including plowing or shoveling or regular traffic on the road. Its a toss up whether to go all commercial or continue doing both. I would love to do both, but I want to make all my residential work seasonal contracts and not by the push based on the snowfall totals. If I end up going tractor/blower I am looking at the Kubota M100 or possibly go all hydro with the Kubota L6060. I also been looking at a few John Deere and New Holland, but the Kubota dealer is the closet to me. What are your thoughts? Also my biggest concern is if the tractor does go down everyone is use to having it snow blown that when a truck shows up with a plow they may go crazy and argue with me over the fact we guarantee everything to be snow blown and they would want some type of refund. The only way around that is to have another tractor/blower laying around as backup which costs way to much or do it the traditional way and have a few guys with walk behind blowers go out and take care of the route which would take a stupid amount of time.


Getting the tight groupings is key, but it won't happen overnight, at least it has not in my market place. I am content to get 7 to 10 driveways on a block, that formula will work well for my business plan. In my area, I will never be able to get every driveway on the block, like some of the guys do in Canada!

I have not looked at the L6060 Kubota, but I have been thinking of going one or two steps smaller. I just like my auto, push button, shift option. Makes it real easy for the operator.

Regarding the extra blower for back/up. Depending on the amount of driveways you have and the amount of trucks you should factor in on getting the back-up tractor/blower combo. Right now I am at the high end threshold for covering my residential accounts if the tractor does go down. This year a back-up blower combo is out of the question, so I ordered a new plow for my other Jeep Wrangler as back-up.

Plan for next year is to get two new/newer Tractor/blower set-ups for approx. $40k each, be in at the same price as my first tractor and then just fill the routes up. In order not to over book the routes, fill them up 85% until you reach 4 or more tractor/blower units. At that time the three or more tractors, can take up the slack of the downed unit! Wow that sounds supper easy to do! lol

Sincerely,

Chuck B.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

djagusch;1898823 said:


> Took over a biz about 30 mins from you that tried this idea. He went belly up for taking on too much debt, etc.
> 
> Anyways some conversations I had with his customers about the negative side of it. Complaints about the noise of it dropping on the concrete skirt, scraps on the seal coat (I know it's bs), and the big one is end of the driveways (*the tractor couldn't get then end clear due to the angle of the driveway to the street*, I heard this the most).
> 
> ...


Would a plow which is lighter than a blower be any different? Or; the depth of the box is too long to dip into that area? What about running one pass adjacent to the driveway in that grooved/lower area?


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## djagusch (Oct 15, 2007)

Triple L;1898837 said:


> How do you blow the snow pile by the driveway door and not leave any piles with the skidsteer blower pulling in vs dragging out?


Sideways by the garage door.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

Snoworks; thanks for the great response. That was very thorough and informative and I appreciate the price breakdown vs. the truck or jeep combos. 

I have a back blade on one of our trucks; but to be honest it doesn't save enough to make a "wow" factor for me...maybe i'm too critical. But that's why the ag tractor/blower combo seems the best fit.

Why question for you is; if you went to something smaller, say a 65hp fully hydrostatic/no clutching, would that lower horse power hurt you much on the larger storms; also consider a small blower would be needed???

Most of our storms are the 1-4 ish inches. At best we typically have a larger storm in the 8 inch range give or take. of those 1-4 ish inch storms; most are pretty dry, light/fluffy snow. What I'm considering for next year (first year with tractor/blower) is something smaller with a hydrostatic so that there's no shifting...

What are your thoughts?


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## djagusch (Oct 15, 2007)

hansenslawncare;1900148 said:


> Would a plow which is lighter than a blower be any different? Or; the depth of the box is too long to dip into that area? What about running one pass adjacent to the driveway in that grooved/lower area?


They couldn't get that last 2 to 3 ft dip cleaned out good. That's all I can say as I didn't run it. But I heard it from multiple people or groups.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

djagusch;1900169 said:


> They couldn't get that last 2 to 3 ft dip cleaned out good. That's all I can say as I didn't run it. But I heard it from multiple people or groups.


Roger that; thank you. I think running adjacent would work...but I could be wrong; I often am.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

djagusch;1900169 said:


> They couldn't get that last 2 to 3 ft dip cleaned out good. That's all I can say as I didn't run it. But I heard it from multiple people or groups.


Adding a back drag edge to the blower chain or hydraulic lift should solve that problem


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## mnlefty (Sep 17, 2009)

merrimacmill;1898470 said:


> Well your spot on with this. If your using a tractor/blower set up, then you are inherently selling 'against' the idea of using a plow. You need to convince your customers that 'plowing' a driveway is a horrible idea. My entire marketing plan was based against the plow guys. With all that said, if you only have one tractor and it breaks down, then you cannot show up and plow the driveways. Doing that would decimate the entire business model and ruin your proof of concept for the customers.





hansenslawncare;1898641 said:


> My initial thought wasn't to sell customers on a blower/over a truck. I see the selling benefits of that; but what you alluded to i.e. equipment failure, is exactly why I wouldn't use that sales approach. Is that a bad idea on my part???


Hey Richard, we've chatted some of this before but no reason to exclude the rest of the forum... I agree and disagree with the concept of selling against the plow. When I was running the toolcat I had success just simply selling the blower as better, without the need to tear down plowing. By doing this I was able to leave a provision in my contract something to the effect of we reserve the right to use plows in the case of mechanical failure or blizzard/heavy snow conditions. Invoked it twice and never heard a complaint... once due to a blown hose on the toolcat, and once to help clean up city plow wash when the city didn't start till long after I was done.

Selling the blower as better leads into pricing... there are a number of factors to consider, but IMO if you're the first in your area to offer blowing and you already have a solid customer base, there's no reason to lower the price just because you can, and certainly not drastically. I was able to get customers at the same price or even above their previous plower by selling it (and our response) as a premium service. When you can detail why you are better than a plow, why do it for less?

As far as tractors... that 50-60 hp range with full hydro and probably 82" blower is where I would/will be looking. There are some on here that have done well with that size already, Razor, Image (Steve), another guy I know up around St. Cloud. Around here we so rarely see anything approaching double digits, and if you're like me anything that gets near there you're going to be plowing with the storm anyway. I survived the Dome-buster's 20" in 2010 with the toolcat, about 3 full runs and some a 4th time... and the toolcat is a toy compared to even those mid-size rigs.

I know I have more in my head but, I need to reorganize my thoughts...


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

mnlefty;1900957 said:


> When I was running the toolcat I had success just simply selling the blower as better, without the need to tear down plowing.
> 
> As far as tractors... that 50-60 hp range with full hydro and probably 82" blower is where I would/will be looking. There are some on here that have done well with that size already, Razor, Image (Steve), another guy I know up around St. Cloud. Around here we so rarely see anything approaching double digits, and if you're like me anything that gets near there you're going to be plowing with the storm anyway.


Hey mnlefty, how were the town police with the toolcat down the roads? Do they come with turn signals or flashers like the tractors? Reason I ask is I am finding the toolcats to be cheaper to buy than the tractor setups. Here is a link to one for example: http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8356895
Another plus to this is that I can have a small toro on back with a shoveler riding shotgun to do the walkways and stairs at our accounts. If I had a tractor and an inverted blower I would need a sidewalk crew following along to do the walks.

Also if I went the tractor route I am looking at the full hydro's because they seem easier to drive and teach employees to use. I was talking with Aaron from S and D in Vermont and he was recommending them to me as well. What's everyone's thought on the Kubota L6060 or John Deere 4720?


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

Enzo;1901322 said:


> Hey mnlefty, how were the town police with the toolcat down the roads? Do they come with turn signals or flashers like the tractors? Reason I ask is I am finding the toolcats to be cheaper to buy than the tractor setups. Here is a link to one for example: http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8356895
> Another plus to this is that I can have a small toro on back with a shoveler riding shotgun to do the walkways and stairs at our accounts. If I had a tractor and an inverted blower I would need a sidewalk crew following along to do the walks.
> 
> Also if I went the tractor route I am looking at the full hydro's because they seem easier to drive and teach employees to use. I was talking with Aaron from S and D in Vermont and he was recommending them to me as well. What's everyone's thought on the Kubota L6060 or John Deere 4720?


I first looked into the toolcat well before I ever considered an AG tractor. The Toolcat will not perform like an AG with an inverted blower. If your doing driveways alone, the AG tractor is the way to go. If you have a Toolcat already and or could use it in combination with your commercial work(i.e. sidewalks, etc.)., then it makes sense. But other than that, I would not purchase a Toolcat for driveways.

-Low PTO hp.
-Low travel speeds

Chuck B.


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## mnlefty (Sep 17, 2009)

Enzo;1901322 said:


> Hey mnlefty, how were the town police with the toolcat down the roads? Do they come with turn signals or flashers like the tractors? Reason I ask is I am finding the toolcats to be cheaper to buy than the tractor setups. Here is a link to one for example: http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8356895
> Another plus to this is that I can have a small toro on back with a shoveler riding shotgun to do the walkways and stairs at our accounts. If I had a tractor and an inverted blower I would need a sidewalk crew following along to do the walks.
> 
> Also if I went the tractor route I am looking at the full hydro's because they seem easier to drive and teach employees to use. I was talking with Aaron from S and D in Vermont and he was recommending them to me as well. What's everyone's thought on the Kubota L6060 or John Deere 4720?


The town was notorious for being jerks with commercial inspections for lawn crews the summer, and they never hassled me once. It had mirrors and signals but I left the flashers on full time.

I ended up going toolcat when I did because the blower was cheap and I got a screaming good deal on a seasonal lease. I had been wanting to go with the tractor and the whole time I had the toolcat I was wishing I had a tractor. The toolcat just doesn't compare. It's great up to about 4 inches then you'll start having to slow down significantly. Room for a passenger is nice, but not ideal. If you stop and wait for or help the shoveler that's wasted time and money not blowing a drive. Having the blower on the arm takes some skill to keep the pitch and pressure right, float did not work for me.

The rig you linked had 1000 hrs, I think you can get close in price with a used mid-size tractor... I'm considering getting back in the business next year and a tractor would be the only way I consider.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Enzo;1901322 said:


> Hey mnlefty, how were the town police with the toolcat down the roads? Do they come with turn signals or flashers like the tractors? Reason I ask is I am finding the toolcats to be cheaper to buy than the tractor setups. Here is a link to one for example: http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8356895
> Another plus to this is that I can have a small toro on back with a shoveler riding shotgun to do the walkways and stairs at our accounts. If I had a tractor and an inverted blower I would need a sidewalk crew following along to do the walks.
> 
> Also if I went the tractor route I am looking at the full hydro's because they seem easier to drive and teach employees to use. I was talking with Aaron from S and D in Vermont and he was recommending them to me as well. What's everyone's thought on the Kubota L6060 or John Deere 4720?


Beware of expensive repairs and potential parts issues with the tool cat Mine was down over three weeks when needed last winter. Our tractors are very maintenance (low maintenance cost per year) friendly. Mark O will likely vouch as well. Love the machine, hate the bills, won't buy another.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

Ok great to know guys. As far as sidewalks in my area here if people are paying for snow removal they want it all done. I am sure I could get away just doing the driveway, but I know for fact 80-90% want there walks and stairs done. Most likely I will go the ag tractor route, but I will need a truck with blowers following behind to do walkways.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

Herm Witte;1901468 said:


> Beware of expensive repairs and potential parts issues with the tool cat Mine was down over three weeks when needed last winter. Our tractors are very maintenance (low maintenance cost per year) friendly. Mark O will likely vouch as well. Love the machine, hate the bills, won't buy another.


That is what I am reading up on with the toolcat's they are expensive to fix. What tractor's are you running Herm?


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

Enzo;1901474 said:


> Ok great to know guys. As far as sidewalks in my area here if people are paying for snow removal they want it all done. I am sure I could get away just doing the driveway, but I know for fact 80-90% want there walks and stairs done. Most likely I will go the ag tractor route, but I will need a truck with blowers following behind to do walkways.


Enzo,

I have a dedicated crew to just doing walkways and salting. After having to add this crew, I took this opportunity to start upsell customers on shoveling and salting vs. wishing they did not want walkway shoveling done!

Chuck B.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Enzo;1901501 said:


> That is what I am reading up on with the toolcat's they are expensive to fix. What tractor's are you running Herm?


One JD5083, two JD5085's, one NH135, one NH4030, and one NH TN75DA. With one exception, all have minimal yearly maintenance costs of around 400 per machine. The exception is one I bought used and that one still less to maintain than trucks.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

Herm Witte;1901793 said:


> One JD5083, two JD5085's, one NH135, one NH4030, and one NH TN75DA. With one exception, all have minimal yearly maintenance costs of around 400 per machine. The exception is one I bought used and that one still less to maintain than trucks.


Nice Herm, How did you get into this? I want to jump in it next year, but I dont want to spend $50-70,000 a good setup and not obtain seasonal contracts from residential customers. Everyone here does it by the storm snowfall total. On average we go about 10-20 times for residential work. My goal is to keep the 40 or so accounts I have now and build up the route density within that and get the tractor to do 100 driveways for next year. I guess the saying build it and they will come would work, but it is risky. This year I could of picked up another 15-20 more accounts in one town, but they are scattered all over town.

I also noticed your tractors aren't fully hydro do you recommend staying away from them? Also like Chuck mentioned and what I would have to do is have a truck follow behind doing walkways and stairs do you do that as well?

Thanks for all the input fellas


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## mnlefty (Sep 17, 2009)

Enzo-

There are used blowers available if you know where to look that can help minimize start up costs, and I don't know about your area, but here in MN there are tractors available for a winter lease that can help control initial startup costs. A decent season or two can get you going with enough accounts to bring cash flow to where a new rig makes sense.

A used blower and leased equipment may not be AS profitable as a new setup when you amortize the cost over the life of the equipment, but it can be done.

A fully hydro tractor will not have the top end road speed that the bigger tractors do, more like 17-18 mph. But I'd venture to guess that guys are not utilizing 25 mph between every account, more just from one group to another. The tighter the route gets, the less it matters.

As far as shovelers, they definitely need to be in a different vehicle. In reality, the tractor or, in my case toolcat, is only making money when there's snow going through the chute. To do this right you just can not stop to wait, load, or unload shovelers. On my route it worked best when they trailed behind, but there were a few properties where it was nice to send them ahead and just get snow into a better place for me to reach, instead of them doing extra work to clear it. Just be sure to be clear in your sales/contract to state that shoveling is not necessarily done at the exact same time as the drive.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

mnlefty;1901903 said:


> Enzo-
> 
> There are used blowers available if you know where to look that can help minimize start up costs, and I don't know about your area, but here in MN there are tractors available for a winter lease that can help control initial startup costs. A decent season or two can get you going with enough accounts to bring cash flow to where a new rig makes sense.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I will have to work on my advertising methods as well as right up a contract for seasonal residential work.


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## TPCLandscaping (Jan 19, 2012)

I run this for my residential driveways and as a backup, cleanup tool for my commercial lots..


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

TPCLandscaping;1901966 said:


> I run this for my residential driveways and as a backup, cleanup tool for my commercial lots..


Do you have a tight grouping for your houses? With a small tractor I would think so. Also I am on my cell phone is that a mahindra tractor if so how do you like them?


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## TPCLandscaping (Jan 19, 2012)

My homes and commercials i do are all in my village…about 2 miles total. Its a Massey GC2610. 25hp, its not overly fast down the road thats for sure. I run 2 plow trucks at the same time. My friend has a mahindra and loves it. My other tractor is a Kioti which i find very similar in build quality as the mahindra.

Personally id like this setup on more of a 35hp tractor with a faster ground speed…but this works for my application.


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## ry_rock (Jul 21, 2011)

hansenslawncare;1898361 said:


> I've been reading the "switching to snowblowing thread" for a couple years now. I love the idea and my plan is to implement this service next year.
> 
> My service area has a lot of homes/subdivisions that this plan would "seemingly" work well in.
> 
> ...


Richard,

Everyone is going to have an opinion, and it is all based on there routes and customer base. I know I am likely to far for you to travel, but I would suggest finding someone who has plow trucks and tractor/blowers and go with them for an event, see how there operators do, maybe even someone will let you try out there equipment. If you have the route and customers needed, IMO nothing beats a tractor set up. You are more than welcome to contact me to ask questions, bounce ideas, and you are more than welcome to come here to watch and try out our equipment!


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

ry_rock;1902008 said:


> Richard,
> 
> Everyone is going to have an opinion, and it is all based on there routes and customer base. I know I am likely to far for you to travel, but I would suggest finding someone who has plow trucks and tractor/blowers and go with them for an event, see how there operators do, maybe even someone will let you try out there equipment. If you have the route and customers needed, IMO nothing beats a tractor set up. You are more than welcome to contact me to ask questions, bounce ideas, and you are more than welcome to come here to watch and try out our equipment!


Yeah I'd like to take a trip and see them in action. The videos on youtube are very clear; but seeing live would be something else. I've driven a couple hydrostatics and love the feel of them; no clutching, no shuttle, very easy...

We run all trucks now...but year after year as our customers increase I see the need to switch over.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

mnlefty;1900957 said:


> Hey Richard, we've chatted some of this before but no reason to exclude the rest of the forum... I agree and disagree with the concept of selling against the plow. When I was running the toolcat I had success just simply selling the blower as better, without the need to tear down plowing. By doing this I was able to leave a provision in my contract something to the effect of we reserve the right to use plows in the case of mechanical failure or blizzard/heavy snow conditions. Invoked it twice and never heard a complaint... once due to a blown hose on the toolcat, and once to help clean up city plow wash when the city didn't start till long after I was done.
> 
> Selling the blower as better leads into pricing... there are a number of factors to consider, but IMO if you're the first in your area to offer blowing and you already have a solid customer base, there's no reason to lower the price just because you can, and certainly not drastically. I was able to get customers at the same price or even above their previous plower by selling it (and our response) as a premium service. When you can detail why you are better than a plow, why do it for less?
> 
> ...


Lefty,

Thanks for the thorough response; yes I do remember talking about this. I'm actually relieved you mentioned the 60 hp tractor range...because this is the range I'm looking for especially considering the snow totals we get here and the type of snow.

I talked to Aaron at S&D and he pretty much said the same thing you have with that sized tractor in mind.

Thanks, and keep the conversation going! You're giving me a lot to think about so I appreciate that.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

I am not sure if this was posted before, but just by doing some youtube research here is a video of a JD 4720 and Kubota L6060 going side by side: 




I feel like they are easier to use and train people on, but the other tractors with power shuttle seem to do better without losing horsepower to run the hydro pumps.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Hey Enzo, I run a 4720 with a inverted blower on it. Tons and tons of power. Never have a clogged shute very easy to run. Very simple to teach new guys how to run the tractor. 

Teaching them how to run the blowers and not cause damage is another story though.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

newhere;1902459 said:


> Hey Enzo, I run a 4720 with a inverted blower on it. Tons and tons of power. Never have a clogged shute very easy to run. Very simple to teach new guys how to run the tractor.
> 
> Teaching them how to run the blowers and not cause damage is another story though.


Whats your average travel speed with these?


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Enzo;1901880 said:


> Nice Herm, How did you get into this? I want to jump in it next year, but I dont want to spend $50-70,000 a good setup and not obtain seasonal contracts from residential customers. Everyone here does it by the storm snowfall total. On average we go about 10-20 times for residential work. My goal is to keep the 40 or so accounts I have now and build up the route density within that and get the tractor to do 100 driveways for next year. I guess the saying build it and they will come would work, but it is risky. This year I could of picked up another 15-20 more accounts in one town, but they are scattered all over town.
> 
> I also noticed your tractors aren't fully hydro do you recommend staying away from them? Also like Chuck mentioned and what I would have to do is have a truck follow behind doing walkways and stairs do you do that as well?
> 
> Thanks for all the input fellas


We did not get into all the tractors at once, we are into our sixth year. The first tractor we purchased with a 8611PP and it replaced a truck on a commercial route all in close proximity to our shop, a year later we purchased another tractor and our first inverted snow blower. The fourth year we purchased a used tractor (the other two were new) and a second inverted. For the last four years we advertised concentrating on specific areas which coincided with our existing residential work. By doing so we now have two full inverted routes and have added a third inverted blower which has a partial route to take up the slack. Last season and this season we leased two additional tractors and we purchased another as well late last season. The other three tractors are used on our commercial routes.

Routing density is a key and is a work in progress. It will not happen overnight unless you give your work away which we choose not to do. City sidewalks are cleared by the municipalities or homeowners. We do very little shoveling for our residential clients and the little we do is done by crews in separate vehicles.

We do not use hydro tractors. It seems to me (opinion) that they are a little on the low end power wise when power is needed.

Finally don't get stuck on numbers. You will need to factor in fuel usage, repairs, length of service, and residual to come up with what works for you. Figure new truck vs tractor.

Hope this helps. By the way it took me a while, a lot of questions, and numerous phone calls before we went this route. Once you start you will not want to service residential with a truck again.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

Herm Witte;1902556 said:


> Routing density is a key and is a work in progress. It will not happen overnight unless you give your work away which we choose not to do. City sidewalks are cleared by the municipalities or homeowners. We do very little shoveling for our residential clients and the little we do is done by crews in separate vehicles.
> 
> We do not use hydro tractors. It seems to me (opinion) that they are a little on the low end power wise when power is needed.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything in your post. What I am trying to figure out is to get an average fuel use for 6-8 hours of blowing the driveways (I know it depends on the tractor), Maintenance (Oil Changes etc.), Repairs if any what usually goes down on the tractors? Also I am looking at these just for winter work and don't plan on using them through the summer unless I can find someone's field or meadows to mow. With that being said I am trying to get an average cost and break it down over 3-5 years with a loan to see what it would cost me annually to figure out my break even point on the machine cost then add in everything else like fuel and what not.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Enzo;1902453 said:


> I am not sure if this was posted before, but just by doing some youtube research here is a video of a JD 4720 and Kubota L6060 going side by side:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting video.

I have a Kubota M125x and a JD 5101e. Kubota has a Horst 1016 and an Ebling 16' (new this year) the JD has a 8611 and Ebling. I like the transmission and cab setup in the Kubota better than the "cheaper" Deere. However, side by side, when I have the choice of the 2 tractors, I will go with the Deere every time. It's 25 HP less, but there is "more" tractor than the Kubota. Not in weight, HP or creature comforts, but there's just something to it. And I have run the Kubota far more than the Deere.

Maybe it's all in my head. There isn't much else up there. Non scientific, but that's my opinion.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

Enzo;1902464 said:


> Whats your average travel speed with these?


17 mph 
My route is rather tight so it doesn't bother me to much. It would be nicer to have a extra 5mph to work with but the tractor allready gets thrown around on out horrible roads.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I can blow my entire route in about 7-8 hours. On a light storm I can do it with 1.5 tanks of fuel or about 60 bucks. Did a storm last year that didn't really take me much longer but I had the tractor really reved up and it was working hard blowing 12-24" with drifts up to 36". Burned 4-5 tanks on that but I was kicking ass and guys in trucks were getting their ass kicked.


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## RAZOR (Dec 19, 2001)

My L6060's have a gauge that say fuel consumption. It is steady at 4.7-4.9 liters per hour(slightly over 1 imp gallon/hr). It seems to be somewhat accurate when I fill it up.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

Good to know about the fuel. Also another question I have is how well do the blowers scrape up? I know there are metal blades or tivar we can use. I don't have any driveways with pavers so we should be good there, but we do have driveways that are uneven due to settling of parked cars or constant driving in and out the same way. My worry is that the snow gets stuck inside these settled pockets and would have to clean them by hand or put down ice melt to melt it away. Also with the tractors I am looking at for hyrdos the Kubota L6060 or the JD 4720. If I did the power shuttles it would be the Kubota M100, M7040, or New Holland 4.75.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Enzo;1902991 said:


> Good to know about the fuel. Also another question I have is how well do the blowers scrape up? I know there are metal blades or tivar we can use. I don't have any driveways with pavers so we should be good there, but we do have driveways that are uneven due to settling of parked cars or constant driving in and out the same way. My worry is that the snow gets stuck inside these settled pockets and would have to clean them by hand or put down ice melt to melt it away. Also with the tractors I am looking at for hyrdos the Kubota L6060 or the JD 4720. If I did the power shuttles it would be the Kubota M100, M7040, or New Holland 4.75.


The scraping has not been an issue. pockets of snow??? I really don't understand the question but, ask the same question of a truck and plow. What do you do with them now? About a half a tank of fuel per night - 6/7 hours. We have averaged about $400.00 per tractor in maintenance per year. When talking about maintenance on the tractor I mean just that, it does not include maintenance on the blower which is minimal. We did buy one used tractor that I spent considerably more on but after two seasons still no more than maintaining one of our trucks of the same vintage. The finished product when using an inverted blower is similar to our trucks with front and rear plows, not better, not worse, just very consistent in service time, efficient fuel wise, with minimal damage to grass along the drives. FYI, we had an awful experience with the NH4.75 (all under warranty) and do not use that anymore.


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

Herm Witte;1903025 said:


> The scraping has not been an issue. pockets of snow??? I really don't understand the question but, ask the same question of a truck and plow. What do you do with them now? About a half a tank of fuel per night - 6/7 hours. We have averaged about $400.00 per tractor in maintenance per year. When talking about maintenance on the tractor I mean just that, it does not include maintenance on the blower which is minimal. We did buy one used tractor that I spent considerably more on but after two seasons still no more than maintaining one of our trucks of the same vintage. The finished product when using an inverted blower is similar to our trucks with front and rear plows, not better, not worse, just very consistent in service time, efficient fuel wise, with minimal damage to grass along the drives. FYI, we had an awful experience with the NH4.75 (all under warranty) and do not use that anymore.


Thanks for the info Herm I appreciate it.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

Great info. guys...a lot of which has been said on the other thread as well; but still quite informative.

If I may...switch this back to the original purpose...

Why wouldn't this work? Why would this be a bad choice outside the "route density?" I understand top speed in a tractor is what will break the bank...but any other ideas or reasons why this wouldn't work well? 

For those that do operate this service; what are some of the pitfalls you have experienced and what did you do to overcome them?

Thanks...


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## Enzo (Feb 27, 2008)

hansenslawncare;1903879 said:


> Great info. guys...a lot of which has been said on the other thread as well; but still quite informative.
> 
> If I may...switch this back to the original purpose...
> 
> ...


I been doing a lot of research into this for the last few weeks and I even started designing flyers and door hangers myself. My biggest worry is buying the equipment this coming Summer/Fall, but not having enough clients to justify the cost of owning it. I know I can pick up more homeowners, but the density of the route will be very tough. My other tough sell here is to just do the driveways and no walkways or stairs. Many people here are retired and elderly which they can't go out and do the sidewalks.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Enzo;1903898 said:


> I been doing a lot of research into this for the last few weeks and I even started designing flyers and door hangers myself. My biggest worry is buying the equipment this coming Summer/Fall, but not having enough clients to justify the cost of owning it. I know I can pick up more homeowners, but the density of the route will be very tough. My other tough sell here is to just do the driveways and no walkways or stairs. Many people here are retired and elderly which they can't go out and do the sidewalks.


The walkways are a big obstacle to "drives only" around my area as well. I always did them with residential but they take the most time and man power. Many yrs ago some of the larger outfits were doing just drives, but then they started to lose accounts because people wanted the walks done as well. I always thought my prices should have been higher with doing the walks and drives but you can only charge so much before people look to the cheaper guy. I always still made good money with residential, but good employees were easier to come by 10-15 yrs ago.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

hansenslawncare;1903879 said:


> Great info. guys...a lot of which has been said on the other thread as well; but still quite informative.
> 
> If I may...switch this back to the original purpose...
> 
> ...


Pitfalls, really only one - buying a used tractor, unless you know the tractor intimately don't buy used. We break plows on trucks and yes we have damaged a snowblower that stuff happens.

It won't work at all;
If you think you are smarter,
If you don't listen,
If you don't ask questions,
If you don't listen,
If you don't work on route density,
If you expect route density to happen in one season,
If you buy the wrong equipment,
If you don't allow enough time to develop this business model
And I repeat
If you don't allow enough time to develop this business model


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So Herm, what are you trying to say?

Not sure I understand completely.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1904079 said:


> So Herm, what are you trying to say?
> 
> Not sure I understand completely.


 Thought I was answering the following question; "Why wouldn't this work?"


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Herm Witte;1904157 said:


> Thought I was answering the following question; "Why wouldn't this work?"


I get it.

I did hear quite a bit of that, or what sounded like it.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

Herm Witte;1904039 said:


> Pitfalls, really only one - buying a used tractor, unless you know the tractor intimately don't buy used. We break plows on trucks and yes we have damaged a snowblower that stuff happens.
> 
> It won't work at all;
> If you think you are smarter,
> ...


I agree with this...even though I do not run a tractor/blower set up yet; this makes sense.

Am I missing anything else??? It seems that following what you said above...there's almost no way of not being successful...


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

Any more insight on this?


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

hansenslawncare;1913081 said:


> Any more insight on this?


Great reports coming in from owners of the new JD 4066r, as it has a 20mph ground speed! It's a perfect match with an N82-260HINV blower. Also, it has the "levers" to operate the rear hyd outlets instead of the electric over hydraulic switches found in the previous 4720 model. Reports are the levers are much nicer to use and much easier to control than the very "fast and touchy" electric switches previously used. I don't have one of these new 4066r's personally yet, but am looking forward to adding for next season.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

I have been keeping my thoughts to myself so others can speak first. To the OP, you are looking for reasons or asking what can go wrong. It’s a fair question and there are plenty of things that could go wrong, but there are even more things that can go right. I have helped, mentored, and sold blowers too many people in the USA. I appreciate all those on this site that have chimed in, there are many more out there who do not use this site, or do and say nothing. I am up to 32 companies who have opted for the inverted snow blower / tractor option. I know of only one where it did not work and he had to sell off his equipment. That person will admit it was not the tractor / blower combo that did him in, but the lack of snow two seasons in a row. This person is a close personal friend of mine, and he still believes 100% it’s the best way to go. The others who all started with one, have gone to two, three and up to six set ups now.
If you want to go into serious residential snow work, this is the best set up out there. Trust me I have tried them all, except for plowing with a jeep. If tomorrow I would find something that’s works better, I would be thrilled, and would be the first one to share the info. Don’t get me wrong I am very happy and love how the tractor / inverted blower set up works. We have been using this system now for over 30 years. I am always looking for ways to improve, and once in a while I discover something new or better designed and can appreciate the concept. 
As for what can go wrong? Everything that can go wrong with a pickup, loader, skidsteer, toolcat, etc can go wrong with the tractor. What I know is that with tractors we were keeping them for 15 years, and putting very little money into them over this time. Tractors are very inexpensive on fuel, compared to the other types of equipment. We rarely needed to change the tires, with the exception of road hazards. You can say the same about plows and blowers. The nice thing about good commercial grade inverted snowblowers is there are no motors. It is powered by the PTO of the tractor, which gives it immense power over a hydraulic driven blower. The chute rotation and deflector are also hydraulic controlled. Beware of some inverted snowblower brands, they are not all equal and you will be disappointed in some. ( I will not name the inferior brands, but I will say the ones built in Quebec are far superior.)
I can go on about the successes, but that’s not what you are looking for. Its like Herm said:

It won't work at all;
If you think you are smarter,
If you don't listen,
If you don't ask questions,
If you don't listen,
If you don't work on route density,
If you expect route density to happen in one season,
If you buy the wrong equipment,
If you don't allow enough time to develop this business model
And I repeat
If you don't allow enough time to develop this business model


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

I am chiming here. I dont run big tractors like your all talking about but I do run 25-50 hp utility tractors with fron mount blowers. We have alot of driveways that are 1 stall to 3 stall runs. Usually 10 -15 miinutes top we have are larger drives done. But we do all walks. Our blowers are only 52 inches so the resident is a good accounts for us. Then we have BC skids with pushers and one blower. We dont use the BC blower on machine much but we do blow back piles - I have found for the money, its cheaper and I keep money vs subbing out trucking company to haul snow away. We also run 4 pickups with BOSS V plows. There great but I would rather the case W11 with pusher or skid with pusher on a lot. We'll kick there butts on open lots with psuhers vs trucks n plows. Seldon do we use plows on drives but in a picnh yes. I also have a wacker W30 that is great. IT will handle a 9ft pusher and we have a 52 inch blower for is that also gets used in residential areas. I like blower the residential cuz snow is gone. No piles, no melting into basements etc. That is our niche market in my area and it works for us...but always looking to go faster and be more effecient.


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## SDLandscapes VT (Dec 17, 2008)

I ll chime in here--I just found this thread.

I ve found that instead of focusing on what can go wrong--paint a realistic picture of what can go right. There are things along the way that will be challenges. Run it as long as Paul and I m sure you will have an exhaustive list of the bumps in the road. If you focus on the end game it can add clarity in how you will deal with situations as they arise. Steve has been very helpful to us responding to one very difficult neighbor--there is a support network here. Neige, Merrimacmill, Image, Picasso, Herm, and I am sure I am missing someone are just a wealth of information.

As for what has been said--this isn't a one man game--this is an investment and it must be scaled with the correct density (or correct price adjustments). You will invest a scary amount of money up front in equipment--and you may not use it at all during the summer and this isn't really a huge deal--just account for it. Merrimac is correct--I strongly suggest a tractor backup till you get to 3. Add to this the need to generate steady business and keeping renewals and you need to budget in time for you or someone to answer phones, send emails, answer questions, sell, network, etc. This isn't really an add on---it's a separate entity almost entirely. Weigh your options, talk to everyone doing it, know your market, and if your realistic picture is attainable take the leap


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

IMAGE;1924932 said:


> Great reports coming in from owners of the new JD 4066r, as it has a 20mph ground speed! It's a perfect match with an N82-260HINV blower. Also, it has the "levers" to operate the rear hyd outlets instead of the electric over hydraulic switches found in the previous 4720 model. Reports are the levers are much nicer to use and much easier to control than the very "fast and touchy" electric switches previously used. I don't have one of these new 4066r's personally yet, but am looking forward to adding for next season.


Great to hear thanks Steve! Also, would you put anything bigger than a 82 on the 4066R? Or is that the max you would go?


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

hansenslawncare;1926224 said:


> Great to hear thanks Steve! Also, would you put anything bigger than a 82 on the 4066R? Or is that the max you would go?


An 82" is as big as I would suggest for a 4000 series Deere. And that requires a minimum 6 front weights. If you don't have any weights up front it will pull wheelies. Thumbs Up


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

*one thing I didn't see here*

is city ordinance issues. We aren't allowed to plow snow from driveways out into city streets. Specifically across them, but also piling up on the customers own boulevard.
The city even get after me for pushing snow from the driveway of one property to the back yard of the house next door by using the alley, (the customer owned both properties). the 1/2 of the alley I did was cleaner and wider then the part the city did too.
That's my reason for looking at the tractors as a better option
Also the options for attachments:
front blower & back blade= drag snow to road, blow away
front broom & rear blade= wet snow conditions
loader on front & rear blower
I saw a post on another thread were the guy inverted a pusher on his loader to pull back the snow to the street and then blew it away with the rear blower.

There is no "perfect" piece of equipment


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

merrimacmill;1898470 said:


> I have spent a lot of time figuring out the calculations and various metrics of the driveway biz, and now I'm not longer in the snow game, so I'm pretty loose lipped when it comes to this stuff now. Feel free to ask anything.


Did you run a tractor/blower set up on residential drives?


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

Herm Witte;1902556 said:


> We did not get into all the tractors at once, we are into our sixth year. The first tractor we purchased with a 8611PP and it replaced a truck on a commercial route all in close proximity to our shop, a year later we purchased another tractor and our first inverted snow blower. The fourth year we purchased a used tractor (the other two were new) and a second inverted. For the last four years we advertised concentrating on specific areas which coincided with our existing residential work. By doing so we now have two full inverted routes and have added a third inverted blower which has a partial route to take up the slack. Last season and this season we leased two additional tractors and we purchased another as well late last season. The other three tractors are used on our commercial routes.
> 
> Routing density is a key and is a work in progress. It will not happen overnight unless you give your work away which we choose not to do. City sidewalks are cleared by the municipalities or homeowners. We do very little shoveling for our residential clients and the little we do is done by crews in separate vehicles.
> 
> ...


Herm,

I may have missed it but how many drives are you covering for snow? Also, how has the shoveling "folllow up truck" worked out? I think this is what I will need to implement for our drives as the customers are used to not shoveling anything...


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

IMAGE;1926433 said:


> An 82" is as big as I would suggest for a 4000 series Deere. And that requires a minimum 6 front weights. If you don't have any weights up front it will pull wheelies. Thumbs Up


Hey Steve, what's the price on an 82"?


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

hansenslawncare;1929444 said:


> Herm,
> 
> I may have missed it but how many drives are you covering for snow? Also, how has the shoveling "folllow up truck" worked out? I think this is what I will need to implement for our drives as the customers are used to not shoveling anything...


To answer your question, of our three blowers one clears about ninety drives, one fifty and then off to a condo project - more drives, the third also about fifty plus he trims out a school and big church lot for the loader then off to same condo. All in about five and one half to six hours.

I have long felt that we can not afford to let a piece of production equipment idle while the operator shovels a walk. We do try to limit the amount of hand shoveling we take on. Our separate shoveling crews work out great but you need to monitor just like anything else. We have used separate shoveling crews for well over thirty years.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

Herm Witte;1929730 said:


> To answer your question, of our three blowers one clears about ninety drives, one fifty and then off to a condo project - more drives, the third also about fifty plus he trims out a school and big church lot for the loader then off to same condo. All in about five and one half to six hours.
> 
> I have long felt that we can not afford to let a piece of production equipment idle while the operator shovels a walk. We do try to limit the amount of hand shoveling we take on. Our separate shoveling crews work out great but you need to monitor just like anything else. We have used separate shoveling crews for well over thirty years.


That's quite a list you have...good for you! Yeah I do not want the equipment sitting idle. Currently we run 3 plow trucks. Each plow truck has a shoveler that jumps out and shovels for them; minimal time lost albeit using the slow truck/plow combo. If we jump into the tractor/blower combo I would implement what you are doing with the "shoveling crew."

On average, it takes 1 person about 4 minutes to shovel at our drives. How many shovelers do you send about for how many drives that need to be shoveled?


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

hansenslawncare;1929748 said:


> How many shovelers do you send about for how many drives that need to be shoveled?


Three shoveling crews, one crew of three, two crews of two with each crew having a sub. This season we are using all high school help. The crew of three shovels one complex, one of the crews of two shovels a condominium complex, and the other has maybe fifteen stops. Each crew normally works about two and a half hours. We don't want to kill those young people and I choose to send them in teams for safety reasons. In addition, per contract we are responsible for shoveling once per day, before school. Daytime needs are the clients responsibility. Numerous firms in our area employ specific shoveling crews, we are likely in the minority as to the length of time assigned to each shoveling route. A number of our competitors crews are out five, six, seven hours and really struggle during significant snowfalls. That's about all I can give you on shoveling.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

hansenslawncare;1929460 said:


> Hey Steve, what's the price on an 82"?


They retail for $9202 with the upgraded Hardox cutting edge and skid shoes, and that's including a steel edged rear blade on chains. There are a few dealers near you which would be happy to work with you, you can check out the dealer list here and give them a call.


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## CAT 245ME (Sep 10, 2006)

IMAGE;1930009 said:


> They retail for $9202 with the upgraded Hardox cutting edge and skid shoes, and that's including a steel edged rear blade on chains. There are a few dealers near you which would be happy to work with you, you can check out the dealer list here and give them a call.


How do the ECONOR blowers stand up to heavy use, I'm guessing they are lighter built blower vs the Normand. I see people using them behind compact tractors but wonder how much abuse can one take in the long run.


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## RAZOR (Dec 19, 2001)

CAT 245ME;1930025 said:


> How do the ECONOR blowers stand up to heavy use, I'm guessing they are lighter built blower vs the Normand. I see people using them behind compact tractors but wonder how much abuse can one take in the long run.


I have had several 80 inch Econor blowers over the past few years. I trade them in after 3 or 4 seasons, around the 700 hr mark. Overall they have held up fairly well, I had a couple welds break on the early ones but the newer ones seem fine. I have never had to replace a chain or sprokets, gears, bearings ect on any. The only thing I had to replace on 2 is the rear u joint on the pto shaft, I blame myself for that because I have been too lazy to crawl in there with the grease gun. A couple of chute bearings and guides and a hydraulic chute motor every season but that is about it.

I think they are a bit lighter than the Normand 82 but sit farther back behind the tractor so the weight is farther back. One thing I do like with the 82 is that the blower is not as tall so you can see over it a bit better.


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

CAT 245ME;1930025 said:


> How do the ECONOR blowers stand up to heavy use, I'm guessing they are lighter built blower vs the Normand. I see people using them behind compact tractors but wonder how much abuse can one take in the long run.


Not good to put it simple.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Im no expert and have never used an inverted(yet) but after meeting Paul Vanderzon (neige) I learned that it all comes down to route density and the amount of snowfall you get in your area. They bought 4 L6060s this year but he was saying that probably isnt a good fit for a snowbelt area like were I live.


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## SDLandscapes VT (Dec 17, 2008)

@Nick Snow--why wouldn't the L6060's work for you? Let's play devils advocate--honestly I have a 5 series JD, a 6 series JD and I can't wait to get my hands on a 4066r


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

jonniesmooth;1926521 said:


> is city ordinance issues. We aren't allowed to plow snow from driveways out into city streets. Specifically across them, but also piling up on the customers own boulevard.
> The city even get after me for pushing snow from the driveway of one property to the back yard of the house next door by using the alley, (the customer owned both properties). the 1/2 of the alley I did was cleaner and wider then the part the city did too.
> That's my reason for looking at the tractors as a better option
> Also the options for attachments:
> ...


Lol that guy was me. Thanks


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## RAZOR (Dec 19, 2001)

NickSnow&Mow;1930360 said:


> Im no expert and have never used an inverted(yet) but after meeting Paul Vanderzon (neige) I learned that it all comes down to route density and the amount of snowfall you get in your area. They bought 4 L6060s this year but he was saying that probably isnt a good fit for a snowbelt area like were I live.


I have 2 L6060's and live in the "snowbelt", I guess after hearing this I will have to trade in my tractors or move. lol


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

SDLandscapes VT;1930362 said:


> @Nick Snow--why wouldn't the L6060's work for you? Let's play devils advocate--honestly I have a 5 series JD, a 6 series JD and I can't wait to get my hands on a 4066r


 First problem with the l6060 is If Nicks Snow & Mow is running it it's going to have to be green haha. I don't really know how to explain what I'm trying to say but what I mean is that for the large amounts of snow we get in the snow belt you need a 5 or 6 series for maximum productivity. I know that in some areas you can get away with doing 100+ drives with a 60hp tractor but that's going to slow down in heavy snowfalls unlike an 80-110hp that has endless horsepower. I only have a little 3 series and it works great for 30 driveways so I am in no way say everyone needs a huge tractor but from what I've learned you need lots of hp and ground clearance to stay productive in big storms.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

RAZOR;1930373 said:


> I have 2 L6060's and live in the "snowbelt", I guess after hearing this I will have to trade in my tractors or move. lol


Lol not saying your wrong I don't really know because ive never used one. I might be 100% wrong so please don't listen to me.


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## CAT 245ME (Sep 10, 2006)

My Kubota dealer does not offer a good name brand blower, I felt the M9960 would be a good tractor to start out with but if I have to go to another dealer to buy a Normand, Pronovost or Shoule then I'm better off buying a different brand tractor from a dealer that sells a quality blower.

I have a Massey Ferguson dealer beside me, been thinking about inquiring about a 4610, I know the 4610 has less pto hp compared to the M9960.


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## RAZOR (Dec 19, 2001)

CAT 245ME;1930509 said:


> My Kubota dealer does not offer a good name brand blower, I felt the M9960 would be a good tractor to start out with but if I have to go to another dealer to buy a Normand, Pronovost or Shoule then I'm better off buying a different brand tractor from a dealer that sells a quality blower.
> 
> I have a Massey Ferguson dealer beside me, been thinking about inquiring about a 4610, I know the 4610 has less pto hp compared to the M9960.


If you like the Kubota why not just just get the tractor from him and get the blower from a Normand dealer yourself? If you are going to finance or lease as a package, tell the Kubota dealer to get the blower from you from a Normand dealer. Im sure he would get a bit a price break on the blower so he can still make a few $ on it plus make the tractor sale.


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## CAT 245ME (Sep 10, 2006)

RAZOR;1930627 said:


> If you like the Kubota why not just just get the tractor from him and get the blower from a Normand dealer yourself? If you are going to finance or lease as a package, tell the Kubota dealer to get the blower from you from a Normand dealer. Im sure he would get a bit a price break on the blower so he can still make a few $ on it plus make the tractor sale.


I was wanting to buy as a package, I did tell the Kubota dealer what I wanted for a blower but they never offered to get me one elsewhere. I should go back to them and see if they will. But at the same time talking with the sales man when asking how long would I have to wait for a mechanic if a problem comes up, I kind of got the feeling that they wouldn't be there when I need them.

But to be honest my John Deere dealer (an hour away) has been by far the most helpful, I've been looking at low hour 6330 & 6430 tractors w/loader, they have some good units and a large 13 dealer network in Atlantic Canada. But the cost of a used Deere would buy a new Kubota.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm wondering how to overcome the obstacle of snow shoveling. We offer it now in front of garage doors and personal walkways to the front door...but once we implement the tractor it would be nice not to provide any shoveling, even with a separate crew. How did some of you overcome this?


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

hansenslawncare;1930976 said:


> I'm wondering how to overcome the obstacle of snow shoveling. We offer it now in front of garage doors and personal walkways to the front door...but once we implement the tractor it would be nice not to provide any shoveling, even with a separate crew. How did some of you overcome this?


 This is also my biggest obstacle and I'm trying to eliminate it for next year. The way I understand it is you basically have to cut it off or price it so high no one does it.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

NickSnow&Mow;1931052 said:


> This is also my biggest obstacle and I'm trying to eliminate it for next year. The way I understand it is you basically have to cut it off or price it so high no one does it.


Would you not have to lower your current pricing since you no longer provide that service? What able city sidewalks? Nobody is going to want to shovels their sidewalk and front steps and walkways, if they have to do all that they may as well do the whole driveway


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Triple L;1931153 said:


> Would you not have to lower your current pricing since you no longer provide that service? What able city sidewalks? Nobody is going to want to shovels their sidewalk and front steps and walkways, if they have to do all that they may as well do the whole driveway


 In Stratford the city is responsible for their sidewalks anyways so that's not a problem. About 60% of my customers choose to have "the full package" which includes shovelling. The other 40% I only do the driveway for and they're mostly people that used to do it but are sick of so much snow. I hate shovelling and I think it's a waste of time considering it takes 5-10 minutes to shovel but only 2-5 minutes for the driveway part, but you can't triple the price. Neige and his brothers have over 3100 customers and they don't touch a shovel, so it definetly can be done Im just trying to figure out how. Ok I see what you mean now. I have two packages, driveway only is $20 or $350 per season and everything for $30 or $450. The non shovel can stay at $350 but the shovelling should be more like $600. We goofed that this year.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

NickSnow&Mow;1931242 said:


> In Stratford the city is responsible for their sidewalks anyways so that's not a problem. About 60% of my customers choose to have "the full package" which includes shovelling. The other 40% I only do the driveway for and they're mostly people that used to do it but are sick of so much snow. I hate shovelling and I think it's a waste of time considering it takes 5-10 minutes to shovel but only 2-5 minutes for the driveway part, but you can't triple the price. Neige and his brothers have over 3100 customers and they don't touch a shovel, so it definetly can be done Im just trying to figure out how.


Almost the exact situation with us. Shoveling in front of garage doors, and their small personal walkways to the front steps which literally takes at best 4 minutes. It's so little shoveling. No city sidewalks to worry about neither.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

hansenslawncare;1931245 said:


> Almost the exact situation with us. Shoveling in front of garage doors, and their small personal walkways to the front steps which literally takes at best 4 minutes. It's so little shoveling. No city sidewalks to worry about neither.


 Yup, I think it's a problem for a lot of guys. I think next year I'm gonna risk it and say screw the shovelling everyone is $350 for the season and no per timers.


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## SDLandscapes VT (Dec 17, 2008)

we don't offer shoveling--that is our party line, but we do have some that we shovel for. It is billed on a per time and tends to be a little more than just in front of the door. I have one guy drive the truck with a two stage simplicity and shovel and a push broom

he sweeps off cars and shovels out and around them, shovels decks, entry walks, city walks (where there is no city service) and custom shoveling as well--we have one where he clears the lid of the hot tub and the back patio and another where he shovels a path for the dog and the back deck. He can do 4 places in 1.5 hrs up to about 10" then things slow down. We send a bill at the end of the month for all the service visits. It is priced reasonably but really out of reach for most. Just showing up is expensive--we call it a concierge service and I d rather not do it at all, but we have some that insist


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

SDLandscapes VT;1931578 said:


> we don't offer shoveling--that is our party line, but we do have some that we shovel for. It is billed on a per time and tends to be a little more than just in front of the door. I have one guy drive the truck with a two stage simplicity and shovel and a push broom
> 
> he sweeps off cars and shovels out and around them, shovels decks, entry walks, city walks (where there is no city service) and custom shoveling as well--we have one where he clears the lid of the hot tub and the back patio and another where he shovels a path for the dog and the back deck. He can do 4 places in 1.5 hrs up to about 10" then things slow down. We send a bill at the end of the month for all the service visits. It is priced reasonably but really out of reach for most. Just showing up is expensive--we call it a concierge service and I d rather not do it at all, but we have some that insist


Interesting, something to think about.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

SDLandscapes VT;1931578 said:


> we don't offer shoveling--that is our party line, but we do have some that we shovel for. It is billed on a per time and tends to be a little more than just in front of the door. I have one guy drive the truck with a two stage simplicity and shovel and a push broom
> 
> he sweeps off cars and shovels out and around them, shovels decks, entry walks, city walks (where there is no city service) and custom shoveling as well--we have one where he clears the lid of the hot tub and the back patio and another where he shovels a path for the dog and the back deck. He can do 4 places in 1.5 hrs up to about 10" then things slow down. We send a bill at the end of the month for all the service visits. It is priced reasonably but really out of reach for most. Just showing up is expensive--we call it a concierge service and I d rather not do it at all, but we have some that insist


Generally speaking then, how did you overcome objections about shoveling? How did you word/phrase it? Or did you price people "out of" shoveling? I've thought about that. For ex. Seasonal price at say $400. Then if they want shoveling in front of garage door and walkways to their front door; $625. These are just ex. numbers; I have no idea where I'd put this price yet...


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

Shoveling is a problem from a productive, profitable residential operation. We offer shoveling and it is not the profitable side of our business. We have used side saddles(in the plow truck) and seperate shoveling crews. Here are some of the problems you run into:

1.) Labor pool: Its harder and harder to find motivated people to perform this work. No matter how hard you work to set up systems to make sure it runs smoothly, the more walkways you shovel, the more complaints you will ultimately get. Missed walkways, not shoveled properly, etc.

2.) Who's truck are they using to get to sites? If it is yours, it just another added expense that is not making enough $ to pay for the service. 

3.) Route assignments: Just like with a plow route a shovel crew will need to know where their sites are. This just adds another layer with the time spent paying for shoveling. How productive are your shovel crews, in some cases the shovel crew have taken twice as long to go through a route vs. a plow truck and side saddle.

4.) In our market 80% choose the shoveling service. I would bet that at least 50% would go elsewhere if we did not have this type of service(Elderly folks whom need the service). Problem is most will not pay for the service if it was priced correctly. In a typical storm the plowing time of a typical driveway takes roughly 4-6 minutes, using a truck(with travel time). Add two minutes if you add a shoveler to the truck. The shoveling crew will take 4-5 minutes, on average(with travel time). In our market we would never get a customer to pay the same for shoveling as they did for plowing. Our average driveway seasonal pricing is $400-425.00, we average about $100.00 for shoveling. 

I think its possible to cut out shoveling service once you accumulate enough clients, that it wont affect your business model, if you get rid of it. Or you can come up with some creative solutions to try and make walkway shoveling service a profitable service. We started offering salting to our customers and we were surprised by the number of people that will pay $30-$35.00 to salt, per application. Now we have a crew that goes out and shovels and salts. Just adding this service has helped us see a untapped market and maybe, just maybe a better business model than plowing driveways. If you can get 25% to 35% of your customer base to choose salting, you can boost your sales by 50/60%. 

Next year we are going to have a disclaimer in the terms and conditions section of our contract that states that shoveling will be done after plowing. We may still choose to shovel at the same time as we plow, but if something happens with the shoveling crew, we have an out, that will allow us to be able to come back later and hit the walkways. 

We are going to push for more salting next year and see what types of results we get. Turn a negative into a positive.

Charles Benigni


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

snoworks1;1931796 said:


> Next year we are going to have a disclaimer in the terms and conditions section of our contract that states that shoveling will be done after plowing. We may still choose to shovel at the same time as we plow, but if something happens with the shoveling crew, we have an out, that will allow us to be able to come back later and hit the walkways.
> 
> We are going to push for more salting next year and see what types of results we get. Turn a negative into a positive.
> 
> Charles Benigni


The salting service is a great idea; I hope that works for you.

On the shoveling note...what about paying guys "piece work" to perform the shoveling, all with their own vehicle/shovel?

When I completed my military enlistment I moved to MN; where I live now. For some cash on the side I worked for a company to shovel walks, in front of garage doors. I don't remember the exact numbers; but usually they paid me $2.50 per house completed. Moving quick enough; one could easily make $20 per hour; which is currently $8 more an hour than we pay our shovelers that we use. Granted they pay for their own gas; but a little 4 cylinder car will spend less than $40 in gas; at a high end.

What are your thoughts on this?


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

hansenslawncare;1931840 said:


> The salting service is a great idea; I hope that works for you.
> 
> On the shoveling note...what about paying guys "piece work" to perform the shoveling, all with their own vehicle/shovel?
> 
> ...


 $2.50 a house is kinda cheap for the work IMO. Atleast $5 is fair.


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

hansenslawncare;1931840 said:


> The salting service is a great idea; I hope that works for you.
> 
> On the shoveling note...what about paying guys "piece work" to perform the shoveling, all with their own vehicle/shovel?
> 
> ...


With regards to using subs that have their own vehicle. We have had several shovel crew drivers get stuck in storms less that 4", using their own cars. If we are going to hire a sub to shovel, they must have a 4x4. After looking at the numbers it looks like we could afford to pay the right person in upwards of $30.00 an hour, to be a shovel crew leader. It might even work to sell them on the walks at a lump sum price, for the season.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

NickSnow&Mow;1931850 said:


> $2.50 a house is kinda cheap for the work IMO. Atleast $5 is fair.


For 5 minutes of shoveling???

Even at $5; running my example numbers we could still make that work...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

You guys are crazy with your pricing! When my company ( smaller company )was doing residential, we were billing out $300-500/month/customer from Dec. through Mar. And that doesn't include the lesser amounts for Nov. and April. We charged per push and on an incremental snow depth basis, as well as a 1" trigger...meaning if the event was 1" or more we performed the service. Not pushing at every inch. This service always included shoveling and snow blowing walks. I understand if you're just doing drives the price has to be less, but the more snow you're moving the harder you're working your equipment. The $350-500/yr doesnt take that into account. You have to make enough money to repair and update this equipment eventually, and buy more equipment to grow your business. Too many guys on here drinking the "seasonal" kool aid. You gotta have a large volume of accounts to make it pay.


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

WIPensFan;1931891 said:


> You guys are crazy with your pricing! When my company ( smaller company )was doing residential, we were billing out $300-500/month/customer from Dec. through Mar. And that doesn't include the lesser amounts for Nov. and April. We charged per push and on an incremental snow depth basis, as well as a 1" trigger...meaning if the event was 1" or more we performed the service. Not pushing at every inch. This service always included shoveling and snow blowing walks. I understand if you're just doing drives the price has to be less, but the more snow you're moving the harder you're working your equipment. The $350-500/yr doesnt take that into account. You have to make enough money to repair and update this equipment eventually, and buy more equipment to grow your business. Too many guys on here drinking the "seasonal" kool aid. You gotta have a large volume of accounts to make it pay.


Our company works off seasonal contracts, even our per push customers pay us 6 plows up front guaranteed. Our average seasonal rate is right around $475.00 for the season. That's high for our market, with roughly 10 plows a season, give or take.

So you were billing a min. of $300 a month for three months, regardless of if it snows or not? That sounds like a cash cow operation to me, are you still in the residential plowing business? $1,000.00 + for seasonal snowplowing would be a hard sell in the NW burbs of Chicago, I might have to re-think my operation and move to Southern Wisconsin where the big money is. I guess it all comes down to the scope/size of driveways and how many you can do in a night, per truck - in order to figure out if its worth it or not, sounds like you had a good little business model there.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

snoworks1;1931949 said:


> Our company works off seasonal contracts, even our per push customers pay us 6 plows up front guaranteed. Our average seasonal rate is right around $475.00 for the season. That's high for our market, with roughly 10 plows a season, give or take.
> 
> So you were billing a min. of $300 a month for three months, regardless of if it snows or not? That sounds like a cash cow operation to me, are you still in the residential plowing business? $1,000.00 + for seasonal snowplowing would be a hard sell in the NW burbs of Chicago, I might have to re-think my operation and move to Southern Wisconsin where the big money is. I guess it all comes down to the scope/size of driveways and how many you can do in a night, per truck - in order to figure out if its worth it or not, sounds like you had a good little business model there.


No, not seasonal. The $300-500 price is a range each customers bill was every month on a per push basis. That's the reason I would never do seasonal. My apologies for bragging( wasn't my intention, but it came across that way ), just trying to show there are different ways to charge and make more money. In Madison, we generally get a pretty consistent 60" or so of snow each season, this yr not so much, but it doesn't happen often. The key for me was middle to high end customers, really good dependable service, 1" trigger and the pay scale based on number of inches it snowed...(4" x1.5) (8" x2) (11" we go out twice, once at 5" and once at 6" so 1.5x2). Most rates were $40-50/push although we had some larger homes at $75/push. At 4" a $40 push turns to $60. A 11" snowfall generates $120. 
Doing all the walks each time is hard work to say the least, but it's the only way to get those accounts. 90% of my snow accounts were landscape customers, and we didn't cut grass.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

CAT 245ME;1930025 said:


> How do the ECONOR blowers stand up to heavy use, I'm guessing they are lighter built blower vs the Normand. I see people using them behind compact tractors but wonder how much abuse can one take in the long run.


The inverted Econor blowers (E68-220inv, and E80-260inv) are built pretty nice actually. I have several customers running the E68inv on JD3720's that love them. I have 2 E80inv's on my own JD4x20 tractors with no problems. The N82HINV is a nicer design, and has more options, but the E80inv does the same job and the price is great.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

IMAGE;1940673 said:


> The inverted Econor blowers (E68-220inv, and E80-260inv) are built pretty nice actually. I have several customers running the E68inv on JD3720's that love them. I have 2 E80inv's on my own JD4x20 tractors with no problems. The N82HINV is a nicer design, and has more options, but the E80inv does the same job and the price is great.


 what's the price on an inverted econor 68 or 72" with hydraulic chute and deflector. Preferably in JD green if thats an option. Thanks


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## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

NickSnow&Mow;1931052 said:


> This is also my biggest obstacle and I'm trying to eliminate it for next year. The way I understand it is you basically have to cut it off or price it so high no one does it.


I charge way more than I do for the drives, for walks and people still happily pay it. Kind of annoying actually. I don't want them but it's actually pretty lucrative if you can do it right and have a reliable shoveller so it's not a head ache.It's the fact that we have to clear our own muni walks in this region that drives this. I'm thinking up all kinds of hair brained ideas for next season to either cash the hell in on walks or not do em at all.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

potskie;1940742 said:


> I charge way more than I do for the drives, for walks and people still happily pay it. Kind of annoying actually. I don't want them but it's actually pretty lucrative if you can do it right and have a reliable shoveller so it's not a head ache.It's the fact that we have to clear our own muni walks in this region that drives this. I'm thinking up all kinds of hair brained ideas for next season to either cash the hell in on walks or not do em at all.


 what are your prices? Or does it depend on driveway size?


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

I don't believe for a second people are paying $400 extra for you to do their sidewalk and walkway extra above and beyond potski


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Triple L how do you deal with the shovelling? Does the operator get out and shovel each time?


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

I'm getting in on this thread late due to not being on ls/ps as much as I used to.

I started the thread over in the heavy equipment forum for switching to blowing service.

Here are some of my observations over the last 4 years of running this service, and a little background into our company.

Before we started we had a cluster of approximately 120 drives that stretched 2 miles from start point to end point and no further than .25 miles away from that center line. So we already started with a fairly dense customer base to take advantage of the tractor/blower combo. We had been using 3 pickups to do that route plus some other drives (<200 in total) in about 7hrs.

After switching to the tractor:

-Cut down 2 trucks off that route, so now it is handled with just the tractor and 1 truck that does the further drives to cut down on road time for the tractor

-Using about 1/4 the fuel of a pickup truck. I can do 4 complete services with the tractor with a 28gal. tank whereas I would use about half a tank of fuel per truck with a 36gal tank.

-I have had zero mechanical issues with the tractor/blower and it is only a 90hp Kioti brand

-I have gotten 3 seasons out of the skids and cutting edge

-I don't have the problem of running out of room to put snow next to the aprons as I would with a truck and having to go around and push piles back. Customers also like not having the obstruction there to worry about when pulling out of the drive.

-The tractor doesn't care if it is a 2" snowfall or a 10" snowfall. With a pickup anything over 4" means at least a 30-50% increase in service time.

-You don't have to worry about the driveway getting narrow due to the windrows encroaching as you would with a plow.


I never tried to sell my customers on tractor vs. plow, I just explained to them the benefits the tractor offers. I doesn't make sense to "smack talk" on plows if you still utilize them.

We currently service about 220 drives, ~12 commercial lots ranging from 1/3 acre to 5acres, 1 condo association with 63 homes, and a plowing account for a utility company doing 24 sub stations using only me, my brother, my father, and one employee that just shovels.


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## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

Triple L;1940763 said:


> I don't believe for a second people are paying $400 extra for you to do their sidewalk and walkway extra above and beyond potski


Believe it! Took my seasonal and doubled it plus 50 percent on corner lots and people happily pay it.

Edit: They always say whoa but they are smaller and I explain it like this. While sidewalks are a smaller area it costs me significantly more in labour to clear them. I can clear a driveway in 1.5 minutes or less and that's going slow. It takes 5 or more to do the walks so I can't do near as many. As soon as I'm done that speech I get a signature and paid. People aren't dumb just need to be educated.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

ProTouchGrounds;1941026 said:


> I'm getting in on this thread late due to not being on ls/ps as much as I used to.
> 
> I started the thread over in the heavy equipment forum for switching to blowing service.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input buddy.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Dont buy that chinese POS! (no offence to anyone who owns one) im sure they get the job done too. Although id rather have an open station 4066r than a cab kioti, kioti and mahindra get leave this country IMO. tymusic


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

Hansen- no worries you are asking different questions than i did. I don't mind the kioti at all but it seems nick has some pretty strong opinions. Like i said we have had zero issues with it so far. My only gripe is that it isn't ahydro shuttle trans so we clutch it for every shift. I calculated roughly 2000 engagements during a route. The kioti came with many features standard that were all options on the kubota. Nor to mention meant dealers didn't have that size machine for our Area. Either smaller 30hp hydro or larger 175+hp units. The kioti was 40k plus 10k for our shoule s492.

The deeres didn't have some of the cab requires we wanted unless we stepped up to the 6000 series and by then the price was up there. I have been looking for an m110 or 100 simply for the hydro shuttle and all controls at the right hand armrest. I don't regret the kioti as it allowed us to test the waters with a lower initial investment. I'll end up putting a loader on it and move it to a commercial lot


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Protouch Yes I do have strong opinions and I didn't mean any offense by it but I would much rather see a Deere than a kioti on the road and I think a lot of guys would agree with me.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

I'm looking at a tractor right now nick and let me tell you, the exact same one with green paint is $30,000 more then the same one with orange paint and says bota on it... I don't really care what anyone thinks $30k for the same tractor that's is snow only and will be lucky to get 200 hrs per winter it's though as much as I love deere equipment and my dealer, 30 grand is a lot of money


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Triple L;1941286 said:


> I'm looking at a tractor right now nick and let me tell you, the exact same one with green paint is $30,000 more then the same one with orange paint and says bota on it... I don't really care what anyone thinks $30k for the same tractor that's is snow only and will be lucky to get 200 hrs per winter it's though as much as I love deere equipment and my dealer, 30 grand is a lot of money


nothing wrong with kubota a lot of people actually like them better than Deeres, I know I would run one if I could save 30k! But from what I know in the compact segment kubotas are usually equal or sometimes even more money than Deeres. not saying green is the superior colour and everyone should have one but Kioti and mahindra are from China and India. Yanmar, Honda, and kubota all come from Japan and are known for their reliability. I don't know much about Kioti all I know is it's from China which is a bad start. Yes I'm very closed minded and don't have a Kioti so don't listen to me lol.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

If you did research you would know that the tractors are mfg in south Korea with final assembly in one of three us states. They have over 60 years of tractor experience and have even teamed with kubota in the 80s for smaller tractors


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## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

ProTouchGrounds;1941365 said:


> If you did research you would know that the tractors are mfg in south Korea with final assembly in one of three us states. They have over 60 years of tractor experience and have even teamed with kubota in the 80s for smaller tractors


I like your story better than the wives tale I keep hearing about the brothers splitting up and yadda yadda.

My next one will be either Green or Blue. Better cab comforts and significantly better Road speed which is important to me. Thankfully I'm leasing seasonally and that will be next season 

Also, Triple L have you been out to Coleman? Good friend of mine picked up a seasonal lease there for 1650 which is pretty darn good. Tractor is sweet too.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ProTouchGrounds;1941365 said:


> If you did research you would know that the tractors are mfg in south Korea with final assembly in one of three us states. They have over 60 years of tractor experience and have even teamed with kubota in the 80s for smaller tractors


Not to mention the e Series Deere's are NOT made in the USA.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

potskie;1941431 said:


> I like your story better than the wives tale I keep hearing about the brothers splitting up and yadda yadda.
> 
> My next one will be either Green or Blue. Better cab comforts and significantly better Road speed which is important to me. Thankfully I'm leasing seasonally and that will be next season


 Brothers split up, What do you mean? I'm saying green because that's all I've ever known and my dad gets them every spring/summer. From what I've heard kubota also makes great equipment. Nothing wrong with Case newholland or Massey. Maybe Kioti And mahindra are the best out there but you sure won't see one with my logo on the side.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1941434 said:


> Not to mention the e Series Deere's are NOT made in the USA.


 I'm pretty sure my 3032e is. Could be wrong though.


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

ProTouchGrounds;1941266 said:


> My only gripe is that it isn't ahydro shuttle trans so we clutch it for every shift. I calculated roughly 2000 engagements during a route.
> 
> That's an awful lot of shifting. I can where the hydro would be better. Being the hyrdos are smaller Horse Power; would this slow you down much? Any?
> 
> ...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

NickSnow&Mow;1941443 said:


> I'm pretty sure my 3032e is. Could be wrong though.


I read someplace that the e Series were made in India. It was on one of the tractor forums. I was very surprised, so I did some research. The only info I could find is that they are built in India while the M Series is built in the states.

I was very surprised.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1941486 said:


> I read someplace that the e Series were made in India. It was on one of the tractor forums. I was very surprised, so I did some research. The only info I could find is that they are built in India while the M Series is built in the states.
> 
> I was very surprised.


ya I think I saw that too. The e series is also close to 10k cheaper than the r series though.


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## SDLandscapes VT (Dec 17, 2008)

That was true the e series was being made in India for a bit but there were issues so they are back in Augusta GA. The really high end Jed's are made in Germany


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

SDLandscapes VT;1941491 said:


> That was true the e series was being made in India for a bit but there were issues so they are back in Augusta GA. The really high end Jed's are made in Germany


Thank you! I'm glad they're back home safe.


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## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;1941486 said:


> I read someplace that the e Series were made in India. It was on one of the tractor forums. I was very surprised, so I did some research. The only info I could find is that they are built in India while the M Series is built in the states.
> 
> I was very surprised.


This doesn't surprise me one bit. It's amazing just how much Green/yellow stuff in their yards is rebranded. Look at the small loaders or excavators. Liehbierr and Hitachi? I think it is. Some of their mowers are like that too (rebranded Wright MFG) So to find out Some of the tractors are possibly the same isn't a surprise what so ever.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

potskie;1941496 said:


> This doesn't surprise me one bit. It's amazing just how much Green/yellow stuff in their yards is rebranded. Look at the small loaders or excavators. Liehbierr and Hitachi? I think it is. Some of their mowers are like that too (rebranded Wright MFG) So to find out Some of the tractors are possibly the same isn't a surprise what so ever.


 What do you expect? They're an ag company that branched off into lots of other stuff. I'd let a known name like lebhrr make them too. The problem is that there Home Depot specials are actually made by mtd and I blew the tranny on our little one, that's just no good.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SDLandscapes VT;1941491 said:


> That was true the e series was being made in India for a bit but there were issues so they are back in Augusta GA. The really high end Jed's are made in Germany


Honestly, I could tell. Fit and finish was not nearly what it should have been. Just a lot of little things, nothing that kept mine from working, but knobs and empty switch covers shouldn't just be falling out\off.


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## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

NickSnow&Mow;1941497 said:


> What do you expect? They're an ag company that branched off into lots of other stuff. I'd let a known name like lebhrr make them too. The problem is that there Home Depot specials are actually made by mtd and I blew the tranny on our little one, that's just no good.


Never said I have a problem with it .Just that it doesn't surprise me. I loved the 324J and 544K I used to operate and I personally buy Wright directly but if the only thing around is Deere I'm going there second.

John Deere's Marketing/ Sales teams and brand recognition are second to none. I'd take advantage of that too. Practically becoming the Wal Mart of equipment.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

potskie;1941431 said:


> I like your story better than the wives tale I keep hearing about the brothers splitting up and yadda yadda.
> 
> My next one will be either Green or Blue. Better cab comforts and significantly better Road speed which is important to me. Thankfully I'm leasing seasonally and that will be next season
> 
> Also, Triple L have you been out to Coleman? Good friend of mine picked up a seasonal lease there for 1650 which is pretty darn good. Tractor is sweet too.


$1650 is amazing! What size tractor do you remember?


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## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

Triple L;1941506 said:


> $1650 is amazing! What size tractor do you remember?


I want to say 110 HP but it may have been 165HP. He owns two others and I may confuse one for the other. I'll ask him and get a solid answer later.

He said 130HP That can be boosted to 155HP.


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## TKLAWN (Jan 20, 2008)

Op question was why wouldn't this work?


So here's my question too that.

A lot was talked about route density which is a huge factor. Want I want to know is what is minimum population of the town/city you think would be nescessary to make it work 10,000 15,000 25,000?????? Thinking you would need atleast 50 driveways for this to even be a though.


Great thread by the way guys!


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## hansenslawncare (Feb 23, 2012)

TKLAWN;1941520 said:


> Op question was why wouldn't this work?
> 
> So here's my question too that.
> 
> ...


Great question...well very quickly I googled Waconia, around 11k people; and google earth'd Waconia as well. The south part of your town has several hundred homes. I think you could make it work here buddy. But, I'm not the pro here so take that into consideration.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

I was never saying that Kioti was the best, but for the price we paid, especially jumping into the blowing service head first, it was a much more comfortable option and I think they are one of the best value offerings out there. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't like it when people don't give factual statements in a thread where people are asking for information.

The kioti came standard with cd/mp3 radio, rear defrost, suspension seat, heat & a/c, 4 front worklights and 2 rear lights, 2 rear remotes standard, 34" tires, and a few other things that were all optional on the kubota. For me it was only between kioti and kubota as I wasn't willing to pay the premiums that new holland and deere were asking for in a similarly spec'd tractor. Even so the kioti came out to about 12-15k cheaper than the kubota. Now the big downside to all this is that it is not a hydro shuttle, like I said, you need to clutch between forward and reverse.

I wanted a minimum of 70-75 pto hp for the 92" blower we run. It wouldn't have been feasible to run any smaller of a blower on the drives we do. This hp requirement put it out of the realm of any hydro drive tractors out there.

The city we operate the tractor in (according to 2010 census) has an area of 4.92 sq. miles, 11,800 residents, and 4982 homes.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

ProTouchGrounds;1941697 said:


> I was never saying that Kioti was the best, but for the price we paid, especially jumping into the blowing service head first, it was a much more comfortable option and I think they are one of the best value offerings out there. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't like it when people don't give factual statements in a thread where people are asking for information.
> 
> The kioti came standard with cd/mp3 radio, rear defrost, suspension seat, heat & a/c, 4 front worklights and 2 rear lights, 2 rear remotes standard, 34" tires, and a few other things that were all optional on the kubota. For me it was only between kioti and kubota as I wasn't willing to pay the premiums that new holland and deere were asking for in a similarly spec'd tractor. Even so the kioti came out to about 12-15k cheaper than the kubota. Now the big downside to all this is that it is not a hydro shuttle, like I said, you need to clutch between forward and reverse.
> 
> ...


Im sure you made the right decision for your business, Althogh I disagree you can get tractors with Different forms of hydrostatic any where from 20-400hp. My dad gets a brand new 6125r for work every spring. I believe it's 125hp and it's fully automatic I don't think it even has a clutch. I know nothing about any tractors other than Deere and only a bit about kubota so I'm sure you're right that Kioti doesn't make a hydro in your size


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## SDLandscapes VT (Dec 17, 2008)

that 6125 "automatic" is an IVT transmission with a hydraulic clutch/shuttle. 4066r is the largest hydrostatic tractor John Deere sells at this time. There is some rumor that there will be a 5 series hydro soon. They have a 6125M at the farm show in town and MSRP on that is $119K--with programs etc you probably could get into it for under $100K


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

SDLandscapes VT;1941736 said:


> that 6125 "automatic" is an IVT transmission with a hydraulic clutch/shuttle. 4066r is the largest hydrostatic tractor John Deere sells at this time. There is some rumor that there will be a 5 series hydro soon. They have a 6125M at the farm show in town and MSRP on that is $119K--with programs etc you probably could get into it for under $100K


 yes you're right sorry I got confused with the names. The 4066 is the largest with twin touch pedals like mine.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

I think you are confusing hydrostatic drive and hydro shuttle shift.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

ProTouchGrounds;1942097 said:


> I think you are confusing hydrostatic drive and hydro shuttle shift.


 Ya you're right. The ivt tranny is even better than hydrostatic. All you have is a little orange shifter and a scroll wheel. Twin touch pedals are probably as good as it gets for residential but the ivt can be set to exactly any speed and has so many options. Protouch it's too bad kioti doesn't have something like a powr reverser. Still geared tractor just no clutching between forward and reverse.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

CVT trans would be fantastic for this application, but they are expensive options from what I've seen.

I just jumped on their website and think they did come out with a 16x16 with power reverser. It's their PX90 series. From what I can tell it's just like the DK series (what we have) but with a hydro shuttle shifter.

Our tractor has four ranges and four speeds, creep, low, med, high, then 1-4 speeds. I usually keep it in high range and then just shift through the gears as I'm traveling and blowing. If I need more revs to push the snow I just feather the clutch to slow down forward movement while increasing revs. It tops out at about 21.5mph.


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