# MB-4 Tug with Plow



## Aerospace Eng

I just won this tug at an auction...



















Mainly as an upgrade in the aircraft tug department (They can push C-130s around), but my mind wanders.... could I use it to push snow and retire the telehandler box to backup/pushing back piles status?

Also, one of the problems I have when pushing between hangar rows with my articulated truck is the tails off the edge of the box plow on my articulated truck, as well as inefficiency for small (0-1") snowfalls.

Here's a spec sheet for the current production model:

http://www.nmc-wollard.com/uploads/content_files/files/MB4 Lit-V1-sml.pdf

It's 19,000 lb, has a 205 hp cummins 5.9l in it (the brochure is for the current production with a 190 hp 6.7). It has a funk 2000 transmission, with 6 forward and 3 reverse speeds, and hydraulic pump pads. No suspension, but Dana 212 axles front and rear, 6:1 reduction with enclosed wet brakes. Top speed about 25 mph.

With 4 wheel steer and an 83" wheelbase, it is nice and maneuverable, being able to U-turn in a 25' wide space (about 10' less than a Jeep CJ).

It is probably best thought of as a boomless telehandler.

I was thinking I could put a MP type plow on it (not sure if I would have the budget), so I could both windrow and push, and use the articulated truck just for the larger snows. Obviously, this setup would not stack like a telehandler or loader, but we are usually pushing into piles that the airport blower then blows over the fence into the detention pond.

If I put a plow on it, I'm thinking that I would put a full hydraulic system in it rather than use an electro-hydraulic power pack. I would also want a minimum of 12' in a box configuration, based on how long it takes me with the forklift when I use it.

So, do I try to put a plow on it?
If so, what?


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## Ajlawn1

Sure all the cool kids are doing it... I'm sure the better question is what couldn't you put on it...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/691388064235147/permalink/3480319222008670/


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## dieselss

Quick search....
Guy had one for sale on ebay for years, says he builds them to plow.

https://globalgse.com/used-gse/snow...ow-plow-truck-11000-lbs-dbp-12-blade-for-sale


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## Mebes

Aerospace Eng said:


> but we are usually pushing into piles that the airport blower then blows over the fence into the detention pond....


This bit made me lol.
_ Sno, I am disappoint, go to your room._

Good luck, and subbed


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## fireball

Nope, it is a viable option. I see them all the time in rural areas mostly with wing plows and v’s. Only problem with them is once you go off road and get them stuck they stay stuck until you get something bigger to get them out. They don’t jack up easily. They will push a really big pile of snow. I always thought they were kinda slow but they are faster than bulldozers. Big plus is you don’t pay much for them at the auction since you are the only one bidding


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## Aerospace Eng

So I was googling around, and found this....No, I'm not going to bid on it.

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=139&acctid=8636

However, it is pushing a 22' plow, and it doesn't look like there is a lot of added weight in the kingpin area. As far as I can tell, these trucks are about 21,000 lb empty. The tug is 20,000 lb.

Therefore, I think what I am going to do in the short term is to build a set of brackets for a 30.5" pin spacing municipal plow, as well as a cylinder and lift arm, and see how well I can push my 22' plow with it. The tug is about the same weight, and the weight is evenly distributed.

The tug wheel base is short at 7', so I expect that I will get some front end push. If it is simply a matter of traction, the axles are good to 8000 kg each, so I can load the tug up to 34,000 lb or so.

The plow will eventually go on my second articulated truck, and I'll get something shorter for maneuvering between the hangars, but this way I can get an idea as to how big a plow I can push.


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## extremepusher

There was a guy plowing mall of America using them to plow with. Running 11' blades he made to plow with.


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## FredG

Dennis, lots of guys use them for snow, they will bust through a minici windrow at the entrance with a straight blade like nothing. Probably just as fast or faster then the telehandler.

I almost bought one but the road speed was slow otherwise I would of. In your case you don't have to worry about roading it. Yours is a nice heavy one, the one I was going to purchase was smaller.

I bet that tug would be a mule in the snow.


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## DeVries

I think you better stop visiting gov deals otherwise you'll be buying that plow too


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## fireside

YouTube shamrock snowplowing. He has a bunch at one point they where building and selling them all done.


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## Aerospace Eng

fireside said:


> YouTube shamrock snowplowing. He has a bunch at one point they where building and selling them all done.


Thanks.

The ones used by Shamrock, along with the one for sale on GlobalGSE, are the PSI tugs. Entwistle and Coleman also built tugs called MB-4 by the military. All have slightly different specifications.

The one I bought (NMC Wollard) has 50% more drawbar pull (16,000 v 11,000), 50% more weight (20,000 v 13,000), and double the horsepower (205 hp Cummins 5.9 v 103 hp Perkins T4.236) than the PSI. The speed is also different, 25 mph v 15 mph.

If 25 mph isn't fast enough, Dana has different gearsets for the differential portion of the 212 axle, so I could theoretically change it to get a higher top speed at the expense of not being able to tow 160,000 lb. I don't need to tow that much (the runway isn't built for it), but I also don't envision needing to go faster than 25.

The immediate concern is going to be figuring out the hydraulic system, since it is probably set up for steering only, without a priority valve, etc.

I have ordered the manual (first call I made after winning the auction), but don't have it yet.

I have also called Monroe, to get an idea as to the mounting pin height for the plow, but I haven't had any response. Henderson plows are typically 17" to the pin, and I have seen a Wausau everest at 19". However, if I have the plow frame flat, the pin is only 12" high. I'm not sure if they are designed to push with a little down angle on the frame to prevent riding up when the snow starts to build up in front of the blade.


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## Mudly

Get you another junker


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## Aerospace Eng

That's the Coleman version.....I think it's more appropriate for @FredG

Here's a link to the Army technical manual.

https://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-55-1740-200-14.pdf

10,700 lb, 93 hp. It does have suspension, which the one I got does not have, and it goes 40 mph with its 5 speed manual transmission. It would probably plow better than a jeep once repaired.


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## Sawboy

160,000lb towing? Wow. Just. Wow.


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## Aerospace Eng

Sawboy said:


> 160,000lb towing? Wow. Just. Wow.


Yep.

Usually, aircraft tugs are rated to pull 10x their measured drawbar pull on a relatively flat surface. The drawbar pull is limited by the tire traction, and is typically about 80% of their weight, so a 20,000 lb tug will typically have a 16,000 lb drawbar pull, and be used on aircraft up to 160,000 lb.


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## Mark Oomkes

Just imagine what a tug with 100% traction could pull...


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## Aerospace Eng

Although I still don't have it here, the manual for the machine showed up. (Getting manuals is the first thing I do after acquiring equipment, and sometimes before.)

Since weight was needed for the towing capacity, it's fairly substantial. The frame is made up of 1.25" plate. Front and rear bumpers are 1". Fenders and side panels are a relatively wimpy 0.75". There is a set of two 3" thick and one 2" thick plates for ballast, totaling 8"x27"x40" over the rear axle. 

More importantly, the priority valve has an outlet for the excess flow that can be used to run other hydraulics in an open center configuration. Pressure relief is 2500 psi, which should be enough to run the plow. I don't yet know if I will have to increase the hydraulic capacity. I plan on using a double acting lift cylinder to minimize fluid level changes.

For control, my initial thought is to use manual valves, like you would find on a tractor, either directly controlled or cable controlled.

However, I have a few questions, never having run a plow, and keeping in mind that I currently think I would eventually put a MP or HLA type plow on it, therefore needing extra functions for the wings....

Is using a manually operated valve a dumb idea? My rationale is that with electronically actuated valves I cannot vary the speed of movement unless I go to a fully proportional control, which would be cost prohibitive. On the other hand, if I go electronic, I could put a joystick on the armrest.

Do I use a joystick type loader valve, with the curl being left/right or do I keep the up/down left/right functions on separate stalks/switches?

For those that have MP or HLA plows, what do you like/not like about the control setup you use?


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## iceyman

Those things are sweet


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## Mark Oomkes

Aero, you should be able to find a valve that a municipal truck uses to perform the lift and angle functions. My Sterling has 2, 1 for the front plow and another for the underbody. I believe they are cable actuated, but they work just fine. I can open the valve fully or partially just using pressure on the joystick. 

The biggest issue with the HLA\MP wing plows is the ability to use them on so many different platforms, it is difficult to set something up that provides control for all functions on one joystick\controller. 

For a loader, the 3rd function works for angling. But you need 2 more functions for the wings. So even adding a 4th valve doesn't solve the problem. 

Our Kubota uses the loader valve for lifting and angling and then the 2 rear remotes for the wings, so even then the operator has to take his hand off the loader joystick to change wing positions.


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## Hydromaster

You can find a lot of joysticks that will control over 12 functions on one joystick


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## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> You can find a lot of joysticks that will control over 12 functions on one joystick


That's nice...the problem is the manufacturer using the valve that supports 12 functions.


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## Hydromaster

Mark Oomkes said:


> That's nice...the problem is the manufacturer using the valve that supports 12 functions.


What?

Even if the valve body only supported 9 functions a 12 function joystick would still work just fine.

And by adding more controls a six valve , valve body can control over 12 functions by diverting the flow.


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## Aerospace Eng

How much of a pain is it to not be able to control the speed of the wing movement? For instance, when adjusting the wing to be straight ahead when windrowing, a configuration I would use most of the time near the hangars, do you find yourself bumping the switches back and forth to get the angle just right?

If it isn't an issue, then the wing functions could be done with on/off switches on the joystick to solenoid operated valves. 

I'm thinking I'll go with a manual joystick valve for the lift/swing functions, since I want to be able to control the speed of those motions, particularly with my 22' "trial" plow.


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## Mark Oomkes

Personally I don't think it's an issue. I don't operate them all the time but the speed isn't an issue.


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## stoneexc2

speed on the wings wont be an issue unless you have a high GPM pump . even then you can put in a inline flow restrictor to get the flow/speed you desire


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## Aerospace Eng

So, after the tug couldn't be loaded the first time the shipper showed up, due to a blown line, and the rear wheels not being able to be straightened, I went there today, since I had to be in Chicago for my day job.

Philbilly and 1olddog2 offered to help, but after looking at the manual, it didn't seem like it was complicated.

The airport said they broke a come-along trying to straighten it, but I figured (correctly as it turned out) that they hadn't disconnected the rear axle hydraulic lines.

I was worried yesterday, when the airport e-mailed me and told me that the tug was outside, next to their shop. I wasn't looking forward to rolling around in the snow.

However, they were nice and we got it in the shop this morning. It was a weird drive, since the rear wheels were stuck about 3/4 to one side. It would turn really sharp in one direction, and basically crab when at full lock in the other. It was still bleeding hydraulic fluid.










After I got it in the shop, the airport mechanic (Bill) helped me jack it up. Yes, we used the rear fender. It's 3/4 plate, welded to the 1" plate frame.










After a recon, I disconnected the lines at the rear axle steering valve (coordinated, none, parallel) that was attached to the column. I did have to remove adjacent lines as well for access.










After that, I straightened the rear wheels by hand, it just puked more hydraulic fluid on the floor of the cab.










The airport found a hydraulic line to connect around the valve, so I didn't have to worry about the valve leaking or the solenoid shifting and dumping fluid.

I then went off to Baileys Fleet and Farm. Interesting store, but the help at the Romeoville store was virtually worthless.

"Do you have angle iron?" "I don't know."

Next person - "Where do I find hydraulic fittings?" (I was looking for a plug)..... "Right here." (showing me the plumbing section).

Last person - "Where do I find hose clamps?".... "I think they are somewhere in the automotive section."

At any rate, hacksawed some aluminum (so it wouldn't scratch the chrome) and sawzalled some steel angle. I blocked the rear axle, with one side being cut short and then the steel angle being used to fit-up the gap. Installed the hose clamps, tried to move the wheels to confirm the blocking worked, and let the tug down.


























Put some hydraulic fittings from hose to hose at the steering valve, and drove it out of the shop.










Now to get it shipped back.

It's going to look goofy with a 22' plow on the front, even if it is only to see how big a plow it can actually push.

For the push mount, I'm going to use plates outboard of the front arc, since a 30.5" spacing will miss it. I'll put a plate between them, bolted to the front arc, with a perch for a hydraulic cylinder. I can use the 4 upper bolts in the arc to attach the upper arm that the cylinder will move. There will be down pressure, basically so I can use a double acting cylinder to minimize volume changes.


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## 1olddogtwo

Aerospace Eng said:


> So, after the tug couldn't be loaded the first time the shipper showed up, due to a blown line, and the rear wheels not being able to be straightened, I went there today, since I had to be in Chicago for my day job.
> 
> Philbilly and 1olddog2 offered to help, but after looking at the manual, it didn't seem like it was complicated.
> 
> The airport said they broke a come-along trying to straighten it, but I figured (correctly as it turned out) that they hadn't disconnected the rear axle hydraulic lines.
> 
> I was worried yesterday, when the airport e-mailed me and told me that the tug was outside, next to their shop. I wasn't looking forward to rolling around in the snow.
> 
> However, they were nice and we got it in the shop this morning. It was a weird drive, since the rear wheels were stuck about 3/4 to one side. It would turn really sharp in one direction, and basically crab when at full lock in the other. It was still bleeding hydraulic fluid.
> 
> View attachment 200356
> 
> 
> After I got it in the shop, the airport mechanic (Bill) helped me jack it up. Yes, we used the rear fender. It's 3/4 plate, welded to the 1" plate frame.
> 
> View attachment 200358
> 
> 
> After a recon, I disconnected the lines at the rear axle steering valve (coordinated, none, parallel) that was attached to the column. I did have to remove adjacent lines as well for access.
> 
> View attachment 200359
> 
> 
> After that, I straightened the rear wheels by hand, it just puked more hydraulic fluid on the floor of the cab.
> 
> View attachment 200357
> 
> 
> The airport found a hydraulic line to connect around the valve, so I didn't have to worry about the valve leaking or the solenoid shifting and dumping fluid.
> 
> I then went off to Baileys Fleet and Farm. Interesting store, but the help at the Romeoville store was virtually worthless.
> 
> "Do you have angle iron?" "I don't know."
> 
> Next person - "Where do I find hydraulic fittings?" (I was looking for a plug)..... "Right here." (showing me the plumbing section).
> 
> Last person - "Where do I find hose clamps?".... "I think they are somewhere in the automotive section."
> 
> At any rate, hacksawed some aluminum (so it wouldn't scratch the chrome) and sawzalled some steel angle. I blocked the rear axle, with one side being cut short and then the steel angle being used to fit-up the gap. Installed the hose clamps, tried to move the wheels to confirm the blocking worked, and let the tug down.
> 
> View attachment 200360
> 
> 
> View attachment 200361
> View attachment 200362
> 
> 
> Put some hydraulic fittings from hose to hose at the steering valve, and drove it out of the shop.
> 
> View attachment 200363
> 
> 
> Now to get it shipped back.
> 
> It's going to look goofy with a 22' plow on the front, even if it is only to see how big a plow it can actually push.
> 
> For the push mount, I'm going to use plates outboard of the front arc, since a 30.5" spacing will miss it. I'll put a plate between them, bolted to the front arc, with a perch for a hydraulic cylinder. I can use the 4 upper bolts in the arc to attach the upper arm that the cylinder will move. There will be down pressure, basically so I can use a double acting cylinder to minimize volume changes.
> 
> View attachment 200366
> View attachment 200365


Hey now..... I'm a regular at that store.....

And you're right they're idiots, I could have texted you where to find everything, I know that store inside out.

I mostly by my pet stuff and auto stuff there


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## Philbilly2

1olddogtwo said:


> Hey now..... I'm a regular at that store.....
> 
> And you're right they're idiots, I could have texted you where to find everything, I know that store inside out.
> 
> I mostly by my pet stuff and auto stuff there


You have to get out of the big city for Farm and Barn to have helpful employees.


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## Philbilly2

Aerospace Eng said:


> So, after the tug couldn't be loaded the first time the shipper showed up, due to a blown line, and the rear wheels not being able to be straightened, I went there today, since I had to be in Chicago for my day job.
> 
> Philbilly and 1olddog2 offered to help, but after looking at the manual, it didn't seem like it was complicated.
> 
> The airport said they broke a come-along trying to straighten it, but I figured (correctly as it turned out) that they hadn't disconnected the rear axle hydraulic lines.
> 
> I was worried yesterday, when the airport e-mailed me and told me that the tug was outside, next to their shop. I wasn't looking forward to rolling around in the snow.
> 
> However, they were nice and we got it in the shop this morning. It was a weird drive, since the rear wheels were stuck about 3/4 to one side. It would turn really sharp in one direction, and basically crab when at full lock in the other. It was still bleeding hydraulic fluid.
> 
> View attachment 200356
> 
> 
> After I got it in the shop, the airport mechanic (Bill) helped me jack it up. Yes, we used the rear fender. It's 3/4 plate, welded to the 1" plate frame.
> 
> View attachment 200358
> 
> 
> After a recon, I disconnected the lines at the rear axle steering valve (coordinated, none, parallel) that was attached to the column. I did have to remove adjacent lines as well for access.
> 
> View attachment 200359
> 
> 
> After that, I straightened the rear wheels by hand, it just puked more hydraulic fluid on the floor of the cab.
> 
> View attachment 200357
> 
> 
> The airport found a hydraulic line to connect around the valve, so I didn't have to worry about the valve leaking or the solenoid shifting and dumping fluid.
> 
> I then went off to Baileys Fleet and Farm. Interesting store, but the help at the Romeoville store was virtually worthless.
> 
> "Do you have angle iron?" "I don't know."
> 
> Next person - "Where do I find hydraulic fittings?" (I was looking for a plug)..... "Right here." (showing me the plumbing section).
> 
> Last person - "Where do I find hose clamps?".... "I think they are somewhere in the automotive section."
> 
> At any rate, hacksawed some aluminum (so it wouldn't scratch the chrome) and sawzalled some steel angle. I blocked the rear axle, with one side being cut short and then the steel angle being used to fit-up the gap. Installed the hose clamps, tried to move the wheels to confirm the blocking worked, and let the tug down.
> 
> View attachment 200360
> 
> 
> View attachment 200361
> View attachment 200362
> 
> 
> Put some hydraulic fittings from hose to hose at the steering valve, and drove it out of the shop.
> 
> View attachment 200363
> 
> 
> Now to get it shipped back.
> 
> It's going to look goofy with a 22' plow on the front, even if it is only to see how big a plow it can actually push.
> 
> For the push mount, I'm going to use plates outboard of the front arc, since a 30.5" spacing will miss it. I'll put a plate between them, bolted to the front arc, with a perch for a hydraulic cylinder. I can use the 4 upper bolts in the arc to attach the upper arm that the cylinder will move. There will be down pressure, basically so I can use a double acting cylinder to minimize volume changes.
> 
> View attachment 200366
> View attachment 200365


You did better than us last night... I chased that electric gremlin in one of the vans just long enough to drink enough beer to not care about it that much. Turned into a handful of us standing around the hood of another truck accomplishing not much except emptying 12oz cans...


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## burtle

That's bad ass!!


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## Mr.Markus

burtle said:


> That's bad ass!!


Not really, Philbilly spends more time drinking than working on stuff...


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## FredG

Mr.Markus said:


> Not really, Philbilly spends more time drinking than working on stuff...


 I thought he was talking about the tug.


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## 1olddogtwo

burtle said:


> That's bad ass!!


Agreed.



FredG said:


> I thought he was talking about the tug.


Disagree.


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## FredG

1olddogtwo said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Disagree.


 Huh, I thought I was confused before, drinking beers with your boys is cool, beautiful thing, large time. Bad ass would be your mid life crisis or a muscle car, machine, plows.

Then again I'm in the ozone from pain meds for my shoulder.


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## scottr

Aerospace, wow I did some looking at those Dana 212 axles, boy are those built heavy duty, very impressive components. Hope to see your snow pusher soon.


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## Aerospace Eng

The tug was delivered while I was on a trip. When I got back last week, I brought it inside, and it was leaking hydraulic fluid in a slow stream (like your sink just above where it breaks into drops). Investigation showed it was coming from the load sense line from the steering valve to the priority valve. That was an easy replacement.

I filled up the reservoir with 13 gallons of Dexron III/Allison C-4 transmission fluid (the specified fluid in this case). WIth the addition of the plow cylinders adding more dirt/moisture, I will probably change to a better hydraulic fluid after I have researched the pump and steering valve design data.

I'm happy with the size of the reservoir, and I am not worried about needing more reservoir capacity for the plow, particularly if I use double acting lift cylinders. I'm also not worried about the pump capacity, as it is 15 gpm at 1800 RPM. I'm not sure why the military felt they needed that capacity for a tug that only had a steering system, but I'm not complaining.

I hooked up the disconnected lines from the axle back to the steering valve, and then jacked up the tug (it's nice when there aren't any jack points, and the manual indicates that anywhere on the perimeter is fine). I crawled underneath, and removed the blocks on the rear axle. I also greased the axle kingpins and the axle pivot blocks while I was under there.

When I started the engine, there were no leaks. I then switched the steering to be 4-wheel, and we had a gusher....

A friend got the hose out while I started to machine an eddy current calibration block for him.

You couldn't see the fitting on the axle from the bottom, so he removed the access plate on the top rear thinking there was access from the top.










No dice. There were several large plates of steel over the axle for weight (27"x48"x2"), and in a dumb move (surprising for me in a military vehicle) there were no tapped holes in the plates to use to lift them.










One would have to remove the diesel tank, pry them apart, and fork them out.

He felt around and thought he could get access through the right side wheel well. He went off to get a 3/4 impact. While he was gone, I tried a trusty IR 1/2 impact. To my surprise, the nuts came off. The airport had lubricated the nuts/studs before installation (THANK YOU JOLIET PORT DISTRICT).










I found a new use for a pallet jack.










To get access for a crowfoot we had to tilt the rear axle (it's on a pivot like a forklift). However, although I had greased it, there was only one zerk and it hadn't moved in a while, and it would not budge, even using a steel beam.

So we jacked the tug up, and put blocks under the left rear tire. We then let the tug down until the axle moved. Lubed the bearings with moly, jacked it back up, used a 3 ton floor jack on the right wheel, and lubed again. We repeated several times. It got easier (no popping), but we still couldn't move it by hand.










Yes, that's a HF pneumatic jack. It worked OK, and sure beat a manual jack given how many times we put it up and down to free up the axle.

Yes, I lubed the exposed grease fittings on the kingpin.










The fitting is at about 10:00, with an elbow pointing into the screen (to the left side of the tug), where the hoses are run.

My friend got the hose out while I finished the block. The next morning, I got a new hose, and installed it. No pictures, as the underside was filthy and dripping.

Everything tested OK. I took it on a very short test ride. No hydraulic leaks, and it turns so sharp I was giggling. It was like a 20,000 lb bumper car. The short wheelbase and 45 degree 4-wheel steering really helps.

I did find that above 10 mph or so (top speed is about 15 in 6th gear, rather than the 25 I had thought), it starts to ride like a hobby horse. The short wheelbase and no suspension other than the tires is to blame. I'm sure it will push a lot, but I'm not going to push as fast as I could with the telehandler (also no suspension, but bigger tires and about double the wheelbase). The heated cab will be a bonus.

The only issues I know I have at the moment are a leaking LQ-2 quick release valve for the rear axle brakes, and wiper blades that need replacement.

Now to design the plow mount parts and get them welded to the frame, and figure out how I am going to lay out the hydraulics.

Since the brakes are air over hydraulic with provisions for a trailer with air brakes, I'm also going to get a gladhand and make an air hose adapter so I can have a mobile air supply.


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## Aerospace Eng

Last weekend I got some parts so I can get air out of the gladhands. Nothing innovative about that, but it is convenient to not have to drag a compressor around. I used it to air up the tires on my articulated truck.










When I let it idle inside the hangar, I noticed that I had some coolant on the floor. I found and replaced a leaking hose connection, and rerouted the hose away from the fan.



















I did not cut the hose to get it off. Those cracks were there.

I then went out to get some data on real-world maneuverability - i.e. driven by me, not a specification. I did some figure 8's










It turns well. 20' diameter circles (measured to the outside wheel marks)


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## 1olddogtwo

Now we know the source of the crop circles

Keep us updated!!!


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## 512high

Aerospace Eng said:


> The tug was delivered while I was on a trip. When I got back last week, I brought it inside, and it was leaking hydraulic fluid in a slow stream (like your sink just above where it breaks into drops). Investigation showed it was coming from the load sense line from the steering valve to the priority valve. That was an easy replacement.
> 
> I filled up the reservoir with 13 gallons of Dexron III/Allison C-4 transmission fluid (the specified fluid in this case). WIth the addition of the plow cylinders adding more dirt/moisture, I will probably change to a better hydraulic fluid after I have researched the pump and steering valve design data.
> 
> I'm happy with the size of the reservoir, and I am not worried about needing more reservoir capacity for the plow, particularly if I use double acting lift cylinders. I'm also not worried about the pump capacity, as it is 15 gpm at 1800 RPM. I'm not sure why the military felt they needed that capacity for a tug that only had a steering system, but I'm not complaining.
> 
> I hooked up the disconnected lines from the axle back to the steering valve, and then jacked up the tug (it's nice when there aren't any jack points, and the manual indicates that anywhere on the perimeter is fine). I crawled underneath, and removed the blocks on the rear axle. I also greased the axle kingpins and the axle pivot blocks while I was under there.
> 
> When I started the engine, there were no leaks. I then switched the steering to be 4-wheel, and we had a gusher....
> 
> A friend got the hose out while I started to machine an eddy current calibration block for him.
> 
> You couldn't see the fitting on the axle from the bottom, so he removed the access plate on the top rear thinking there was access from the top.
> 
> View attachment 201042
> 
> 
> No dice. There were several large plates of steel over the axle for weight (27"x48"x2"), and in a dumb move (surprising for me in a military vehicle) there were no tapped holes in the plates to use to lift them.
> 
> View attachment 201043
> 
> 
> One would have to remove the diesel tank, pry them apart, and fork them out.
> 
> He felt around and thought he could get access through the right side wheel well. He went off to get a 3/4 impact. While he was gone, I tried a trusty IR 1/2 impact. To my surprise, the nuts came off. The airport had lubricated the nuts/studs before installation (THANK YOU JOLIET PORT DISTRICT).
> 
> View attachment 201041
> 
> 
> I found a new use for a pallet jack.
> 
> View attachment 201040
> 
> 
> To get access for a crowfoot we had to tilt the rear axle (it's on a pivot like a forklift). However, although I had greased it, there was only one zerk and it hadn't moved in a while, and it would not budge, even using a steel beam.
> 
> So we jacked the tug up, and put blocks under the left rear tire. We then let the tug down until the axle moved. Lubed the bearings with moly, jacked it back up, used a 3 ton floor jack on the right wheel, and lubed again. We repeated several times. It got easier (no popping), but we still couldn't move it by hand.
> 
> View attachment 201044
> 
> 
> Yes, that's a HF pneumatic jack. It worked OK, and sure beat a manual jack given how many times we put it up and down to free up the axle.
> 
> Yes, I lubed the exposed grease fittings on the kingpin.
> 
> View attachment 201045
> 
> 
> The fitting is at about 10:00, with an elbow pointing into the screen (to the left side of the tug), where the hoses are run.
> 
> My friend got the hose out while I finished the block. The next morning, I got a new hose, and installed it. No pictures, as the underside was filthy and dripping.
> 
> Everything tested OK. I took it on a very short test ride. No hydraulic leaks, and it turns so sharp I was giggling. It was like a 20,000 lb bumper car. The short wheelbase and 45 degree 4-wheel steering really helps.
> 
> I did find that above 10 mph or so (top speed is about 15 in 6th gear, rather than the 25 I had thought), it starts to ride like a hobby horse. The short wheelbase and no suspension other than the tires is to blame. I'm sure it will push a lot, but I'm not going to push as fast as I could with the telehandler (also no suspension, but bigger tires and about double the wheelbase). The heated cab will be a bonus.
> 
> The only issues I know I have at the moment are a leaking LQ-2 quick release valve for the rear axle brakes, and wiper blades that need replacement.
> 
> Now to design the plow mount parts and get them welded to the frame, and figure out how I am going to lay out the hydraulics.
> 
> Since the brakes are air over hydraulic with provisions for a trailer with air brakes, I'm also going to get a gladhand and make an air hose adapter so I can have a mobile air supply.


No suspension? Whats the inside like?(seat) throw in a suspension or air ride? That thing will be a beast! If you put a metal pless on it, I think that would be a first!


----------



## FredG

That air might come in handy if something goes down to release air brakes to tow something to the hanger.


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## Aerospace Eng

512high said:


> No suspension? Whats the inside like?(seat) throw in a suspension or air ride? That thing will be a beast! If you put a metal pless on it, I think that would be a first!


No suspension. It's somewhere between a telehandler without a boom, or a forklift with front-wheel steering (up to 45 degrees) but limited rear wheel steering (only 45 degrees or so). The front axle is rigidly attached to the frame. The rear axle is attached through two large bearings/pillow blocks, so it can oscillate to keep all 4 wheels on the ground.

The inside is like an old truck. Not that different than my big brooms, or the airport's snowblower.

No air ride. It's designed for smooth surfaces, so the ride isn't bad unless it starts hobby-horsing. Heat but no AC.

My plan is to eventually put an MP-type plow on it. This would allow me to retire the telehandler, its open seating, and its 12' skidsteer box unless something broke down. The articulated with the 16' super duty box would still be used in anything 3" or more (as an estimate).

One of the issues with the push boxes between the hangars is that they leave tails, and cleaning them up takes a lot of time. (No salt, and frozen ridges, even if only an inch high, are not acceptable for small aircraft landing gear).

If there was a pickup in attendance, working to windrow the tails into the unplowed snow, it would be a lot faster, but whenever multiple machines are working in the same place at the same time, communication/collision issues are created.

With the tug, I could clear within 5' or so from the hangars with my small broom and sno-grader wheeled shovel, like I currently do. I would then use the tug and alternate pushing and windrowing the tails into the unplowed center.

The hangar setup requires that all snow be pushed in one direction, about 700', to the detention pond. With the tight turning radius, I could actually push to the detention pond, and then turn around and windrow while traveling in the other direction, rather than deadheading back as I do now.

I know I want either a 12' or 14' wide box, when in box mode, but am not sure how much plow the tug can push (how wide is too wide when in windrowing mode).

The tug is heavy at 20,000 lb, and I can make it heavier, since the axles are rated for 30,000, but it has a really short wheelbase, and deep or heavy snow will likely start pushing the front end regardless of how heavy it is.

My plan is to build a pin mount with standard 30.5" spacing, and then temporarily mount the 22' plow I picked up this year and currently have earmarked for my second articulated truck. The same pin mount I need for it could then be used for any municipal type plow or metal-pless.

With the 22' plow I can get some data, then do some math and make a decision. It will also let me see if a 48" moldboard is too high for good visibility, given the tug's seating position.


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## 512high

Aerospace Eng said:


> No suspension. It's somewhere between a telehandler without a boom, or a forklift with front-wheel steering (up to 45 degrees) but limited rear wheel steering (only 45 degrees or so). The front axle is rigidly attached to the frame. The rear axle is attached through two large bearings/pillow blocks, so it can oscillate to keep all 4 wheels on the ground.
> 
> The inside is like an old truck. Not that different than my big brooms, or the airport's snowblower.
> 
> No air ride. It's designed for smooth surfaces, so the ride isn't bad unless it starts hobby-horsing. Heat but no AC.
> 
> My plan is to eventually put an MP-type plow on it. This would allow me to retire the telehandler, its open seating, and its 12' skidsteer box unless something broke down. The articulated with the 16' super duty box would still be used in anything 3" or more (as an estimate).
> 
> One of the issues with the push boxes between the hangars is that they leave tails, and cleaning them up takes a lot of time. (No salt, and frozen ridges, even if only an inch high, are not acceptable for small aircraft landing gear).
> 
> If there was a pickup in attendance, working to windrow the tails into the unplowed snow, it would be a lot faster, but whenever multiple machines are working in the same place at the same time, communication/collision issues are created.
> 
> With the tug, I could clear within 5' or so from the hangars with my small broom and sno-grader wheeled shovel, like I currently do. I would then use the tug and alternate pushing and windrowing the tails into the unplowed center.
> 
> The hangar setup requires that all snow be pushed in one direction, about 700', to the detention pond. With the tight turning radius, I could actually push to the detention pond, and then turn around and windrow while traveling in the other direction, rather than deadheading back as I do now.
> 
> I know I want either a 12' or 14' wide box, when in box mode, but am not sure how much plow the tug can push (how wide is too wide when in windrowing mode).
> 
> The tug is heavy at 20,000 lb, and I can make it heavier, since the axles are rated for 30,000, but it has a really short wheelbase, and deep or heavy snow will likely start pushing the front end regardless of how heavy it is.
> 
> My plan is to build a pin mount with standard 30.5" spacing, and then temporarily mount the 22' plow I picked up this year and currently have earmarked for my second articulated truck. The same pin mount I need for it could then be used for any municipal type plow or metal-pless.
> 
> With the 22' plow I can get some data, then do some math and make a decision. It will also let me see if a 48" moldboard is too high for good visibility, given the tug's seating position.


You are very talented, the airport in my city(Nashua, NH, second largest in this small state), our local airport KASH , if I remember , and I could be very wrong, not sure the got some money to update runway(s) paving and snow removal equipment? Not sure if that came from homeland security grant? Anyways please keep us posted!


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## Aerospace Eng

One of the things that I noticed on the tug was that there was an air leak when I depressed the brakes. I felt around, and found that one of the two LQ-2 valves was blowing air. It should be tight until the brake is released.










As an aside, I'm not sure why they used an LQ-2 (2 stage valve) but left the control port open to the atmosphere - to the right in the above picture. The brakes are air over hydraulic. The only thing I can think of is that full pressure would cause the brakes on the axles to lock. But then why not just get a smaller brake actuator?

I got the aft one replaced last week (minus a bolt that dropped to who knows where), but it was still blowing air. The second valve came in today, so I replaced it. The access left something to be desired, as the distance between the actuator bracket and the cover plate is barely big enough to get your arm in, but not big enough to do any maneuvering. For the second one, I went in through the engine compartment, since it was easier. I hadn't realized it before, but the tug has no firewall. In that respect it is like a telehandler.



















It's all tight, and operating like it should. I'm going to scrounge some sintered air filters and put them in the control port.


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## Randall Ave

Aerospace Eng said:


> One of the things that I noticed on the tug was that there was an air leak when I depressed the brakes. I felt around, and found that one of the two LQ-2 valves was blowing air. It should be tight until the brake is released.
> 
> View attachment 203433
> 
> 
> As an aside, I'm not sure why they used an LQ-2 (2 stage valve) but left the control port open to the atmosphere - to the right in the above picture. The brakes are air over hydraulic. The only thing I can think of is that full pressure would cause the brakes on the axles to lock. But then why not just get a smaller brake actuator?
> 
> I got the aft one replaced last week (minus a bolt that dropped to who knows where), but it was still blowing air. The second valve came in today, so I replaced it. The access left something to be desired, as the distance between the actuator bracket and the cover plate is barely big enough to get your arm in, but not big enough to do any maneuvering. For the second one, I went in through the engine compartment, since it was easier. I hadn't realized it before, but the tug has no firewall. In that respect it is like a telehandler.
> 
> View attachment 203434
> 
> 
> View attachment 203435
> 
> 
> It's all tight, and operating like it should. I'm going to scrounge some sintered air filters and put them in the control port.


I can't remember with or without air at the control port, if the brakes are full operation or restricted.


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## Aerospace Eng

Randall Ave said:


> I can't remember with or without air at the control port, if the brakes are full operation or restricted.


Restricted. The upper port is half, and the side port is half.


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## Randall Ave

If memory serves, top should be supply, sides delivery, front port control. But I haven't seen one in years.


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## Aerospace Eng

Randall Ave said:


> If memory serves, top should be supply, sides delivery, front port control. But I haven't seen one in years.


You are correct. I wasn't being specific enough. The top port is primary, and the port opposite the mounting flange (the ones without anything in them in the above pictures) is the secondary. Control is a bit of a misnomer, as it basically delivers air to a secondary donut-like piston, rather than piloting the incoming air from the top port.

The two lower ports that go out opposite to each other are identical delivery ports, and the bottom is the quick vent.


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## Randall Ave

It does control the valve, basically turning it's main controllable function on and off. Older trucks had a dry/slippery road valve in the dash for bobtailing. This would limit front brake air pressure. From what I remember anyway.


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## Aerospace Eng

I test fit the plow push plate I had plasma cut (modeled after the SQH hitch used on my Oshkosh so I can have a common mounting system). Overall I'm happy with how it is turning out.

Everything looked pretty good, although I had to run a drill through the 1/2" bolt holes in the center. The upper set of 4 will be countersunk for the plow plates to sit flush. The plow side geometry will allow the pintle hitch to remain in place.



















One snag I ran into was that the side plates did not easily fit.










They fit in the middle, but were too tight on the outside. I knocked one into place to ensure it would clear the lights and the center protrusion on which the pintle hitch was mounted.

It turns out that the front fender/radiator grill which is made out of 1" plate has a slight bend to it.










On Friday, I'll put the side plates in the mill and remove about 0.080 from each.


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## Western1

Nice! Happy Thanksgiving!


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## Aerospace Eng

An fit check for the 12' plow from the Oshkosh went well. I think it looks about the right size for the tug.




























The hooks will go on the push plate in the right position, and I was able to check to make sure they would clear the side plates. The swing bolt slots and through holes are in the proper position. 









I couldn't put it all the way on due to the bolt heads on the upper pattern, since I haven't countersunk them yet.

The plow clears the pintle hitch without interference.










I got the side plates machined.










I have to bevel the edges of the side plates for welding, and do the countersinking on the plate as mentioned above this week.

I am thinking about making another set of side plates, welding them to the tug, the existing ones to the plate, and bolting them together so that the plate can be removed in the future for replacement without cutting welds.


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## Mr.Markus

We're glad you got the brakes sorted out before running it around in the hangar like a teenager...


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## Aerospace Eng

I have decided to change the mounting. Rather than a single sideplate on each side, welded to the plate and tug, I have decided to go with two sets of plate on each side, with a bolted connection between them (8 plates total). That way I can remove the push plate if it is damaged or I decide I need a different design. Hopefully I will get them in this coming week.

In the meantime, I got the loader valve mounted to the interior plate on the tug. I am waiting on schedule 80 stainless pipe and fittings to plumb it, and then I can put it back in and measure for hose length.










The above picture shows it in the float position, so the standoffs are the right length, in my opinion.


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## DavCut

Enjoying seeing your build come together. Is the plate mounted in the tug flat as it is shown in the photo? Almost looks as if you could give yourself some additional space between the handle and the plate. You may also want to block it up in position in the rig to check position. I’ve been in a couple of plow trucks where the levers are too far from the seat and it makes for a long night of plowing.


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## Aerospace Eng

DavCut said:


> Enjoying seeing your build come together. Is the plate mounted in the tug flat as it is shown in the photo? Almost looks as if you could give yourself some additional space between the handle and the plate. You may also want to block it up in position in the rig to check position. I've been in a couple of plow trucks where the levers are too far from the seat and it makes for a long night of plowing.


Yes, it is.

I thought I had pictures of the interior together, but if I do, I cannot locate them.

Sitting in the Driver's seat, the plate is immediately to the right, at about butt height. The view below is from the passenger side, the one in the post above is from the driver's side.

In the photo below, you can see where it goes under the cab, where the hydraulic filler door is located, and where it sits on a crossmember.

I originally wanted the valve to go under the plate, with the joystick straight up, but there isn't enough vertical clearance.

The joystick knob has about 2" under it, although it doesn't look like it in the photo. It is about 1 foot to the right of the driver's right thigh, and about 6" aft of the transmission shifter.

I think that will work, and I don't have much option. The back of the valve is almost against the cab, and I didn't want the knob interfering with the transmission shifter. If I need to, I can shorten the rod.

I think I will be able to leave it in float most of the time and just push/pull left and right to change direction. I should hardly ever have to lift it since I expect to back up rarely.

I am thinking about building a box to cover it, as an armrest (and maybe cupholder).


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## DavCut

Makes more sense with the additional photo. The arm rest sounds like a good idea as it probably wouldn’t be very comfortable hitting your elbow on the valve.

Looking forward to seeing valve installed and a video of you putting it through it’s paces.

Dave


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## Mr.Markus

Whenever I think of the word "Tug" this is exactly the comfort level I picture for the interior....
Perhaps needs some orange shag and some beads.....


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## fireball

You can never have too much tinsel


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## SHAWZER

Looks like the same seat that is in my small Loader ...... only suspension is my Spine .


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## Aerospace Eng

SHAWZER said:


> Looks like the same seat that is in my small Loader ...... only suspension is my Spine .


Probably. It is no fun when it starts hobby-horsing.


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## Aerospace Eng

The loader valve I bought had pipe thread connections. I am partial to Swagelok, but they are pricey (the knockoffs don't have the same pressure ratings at 3/4 NPT), and going from NPT to Swagelok to JIC was a lot of connections. I decided to just go with Schedule 80 stainless pipe.

I had been able to drill the holes for the cylinder ports and the standoffs using a template I made based off the valve drawings.










However, I wasn't able to do that for the inlet and outlet, as the depth to which an NPT fitting is inserted is variable. I put some street elbows on, and tried to project down to the plate.



















As I have previously said, I really like the Hougen hole cutters. However, on the second hole, I got off axis, and the cutter grabbed, breaking two of the carbide teeth. Another $30 or so gone.










I almost got it right.




























After enlarging the holes slightly, everything fit. I then put on the adapters to JIC fittings. In the "It's always better to be lucky than good" category, there was barely enough clearance to put them on without interference. If they had hit, I would have gone to Swagelok.










Installed. The rear pipes are 2" longer than the fronts to provide clearance for hoses. so it isn't too tight. They are angled because the hoses will have to come through on the side of the frame rail.


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## Aerospace Eng

The top looks reasonable as well, in my opinion



















A picture of the clearance from the plate when in float position:










And a picture of the interior. The joystick knob will be just aft of the crossmember.


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## Aerospace Eng

As mentioned above, I decided to change the mounting of the plate to a bolted connection between braces welded on the push plate and ones welded on the plow.

The welder is coming this morning (Saturday), so I had to get it complete.

I had the parts plasma cut, but that leaves a slight angle and a kerf, so I had to machine them away. One of the problems was how to true it up. I had the holes made undersize, and drilled one set to exact size, put in a bolt, and then drilled a second set out. I oriented the parts in the way they are to be installed.

I used extra long bolts like pins to set "level" and then faced one side. 









Flipped it over and faced the outer edge (which will be welded) on the other side. This time, I used the first faced edge as the guide.










Because the front of the tug is a rolled and welded structure it is not perfectly flat.

I had to mill each set of brackets to size. I made an initial measurement and took some rough passes. Once I got close to the measurement, I would take about 0.010 off, and check. Repeat.



















Finally got all 4 sets done.










Now I just have to get up early and chamfer the edges before the welder arrives.


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## Western1

Sweet


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## Aerospace Eng

Time to make the chamfers....


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## Mr.Markus

I was going to post at 6 am " Get up,!!! The welders coming!!!!"

But i slept in and had to check lots...


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## fireball

I think I see the flickering of a welder in the western horizon. Great to see an photographic history of a work in progress


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## Aerospace Eng

Did the chamfers (two before the welder go there, two after, while he was welding on the new plate for the 22' plow...










Got it tacked up (Yes, bolts were inserted for the tack, but I needed them for alignment of others).

The original single welded brace per side design would have been flush with the outside of the plate, but when I went to a bolted design it doubled the thickness, and would have been too narrow for the v-shaped hooks on the 12' plow. There is barely enough room with the outer plate flush with the headlight cut-out and the inner plate top edge beveled (which will also help it center).

On the lower brace, the one welded to the plow is still flush with the plate, but the side welded to the tug is on the inside, since mounting to the outboard would potentially interfere with the swing bolts.



















I am not worried about the strength or stiffness. It is well triangulated on the hitch mount (better than most plow mounts), and the loads have a very direct path to the frame plates.










The welder had to go do some things this afternoon, so it won't be finished until next weekend. I'm hoping to have the hydraulics done as well by then.

After testing the operation, it will be time to send the plate off for paint, and to hand paint the parts welded to the tug.


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## Aerospace Eng

I picked up some hydraulic hoses the other day, and decided to route them.

I got the plate in.. this view is from the rear hitch area. The hydraulic tank is on the right.









I still have some zip-tying to do, but the hoses are in.










The military made it easy to put a plow on, as they have a large hydraulic pump just to run the power steering. Plenty of capacity.










Ends are about where I want them. I will go through the panel with bulkhead fittings. I was going to put the quick disconnects there, but a friend (who is also an aircraft mechanic) suggested I weld a plate between the radiator guard and the lifting lug, and put bulkhead fittings there to make it easier to connect. I think I will do that.










The location worked out better than I thought. If you drop your right hand off the steering wheel, it naturally falls to the joystick, and it is easy to operate. There is no interference with the transmission shift lever.


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## Western1

Nice!


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## Aerospace Eng

I removed the hose from the priority valve EF port to the return manifold.










I connected the hose from the supply side of the loader valve to the EF port on the priority valve (visible at the bottom). I connected the return line from the loader valve to the return manifold (white striped hose in the middle of the 3 return lines).










Pretty easy connection.

I then plugged the outlet hoses










Lastly, I started the tug, made sure the steering and brakes still worked, and then operated the loader valve until I heard the relief valve open in each position (up, down, left, right).

I then looked under the valve at the pipe connections. It was dry (although the debris from the cab sealant removal so I could get the plate out does need to be vacuumed).










Now I feel comfortable about semi-permanently reinstalling the plate and attaching the hoses to the bulkhead fittings.


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## Aerospace Eng

The welder finally came by today, after some Covid issues, and me traveling.

Finished welding up the braces on the push plate and tug.

















I have to countersink the plate for the top 4 bolts, then it's off to paint for the push plate and some hand painting by me on the tug.


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## Aerospace Eng

Since we may not have that many storms, I decided to mount up the plow and see how it works on this one.

First, countersink the plate. I was once again reminded that I should have not let them plasma cut the holes and drilled them instead.

I remounted the plate. It was a tight fit, as finishing the welds pulled the braces on the tug in a bit. In retrospect, I should have placed shims between the side brace pieces before welding. In this case, it wasn't so important as the plate will not go on and off, but it would have made life easier.

















I temporarily hooked up some fittings on the side of the plow hood and then went out and retreived the plow. It took a few tries, but I got the plow lined up with the help of a friend, and the plow on.










I have some other bulkhead connectors and will have some lines made so the quick connects are on the plate above the left headlight.










The plow is fairly close coupled.



















I thought about trying it last night, but without any useful lights, decided to wait until this morning.

I will have to get some jagoff lights.










Now to try it.....


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## Aerospace Eng

I also have to try and figure out who backed into the plow after I took it off the oshkosh and put it on the ramp so I could change the push plate. It bent up the snow deflector....

I'm sure their vehicle got the worst of it.


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## Aerospace Eng

It plows fairly well.



















The plow is 12', but only 10' angled. Not a lot of side overhang. I think another 2' at least gor the center when I eventually get an MP, HLA, or equivalent.



















That being said, with 4 wheel steering, the tracks are in the middle of the path. The center biscuit is about 10' diameter, plowing to outside.










In 2 wheel steer, the biscuit was much larger and the tracks were at the edge of the path.


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## BossPlow2010

How fast does it go?


----------



## Hydromaster

BossPlow2010 said:


> How fast does it go?


Thinking about racing it?


----------



## LapeerLandscape

Aerospace Eng said:


> The loader valve I bought had pipe thread connections. I am partial to Swagelok, but they are pricey (the knockoffs don't have the same pressure ratings at 3/4 NPT), and going from NPT to Swagelok to JIC was a lot of connections. I decided to just go with Schedule 80 stainless pipe.
> 
> I had been able to drill the holes for the cylinder ports and the standoffs using a template I made based off the valve drawings.
> 
> View attachment 209645
> 
> 
> However, I wasn't able to do that for the inlet and outlet, as the depth to which an NPT fitting is inserted is variable. I put some street elbows on, and tried to project down to the plate.
> 
> View attachment 209644
> 
> 
> View attachment 209643
> 
> 
> As I have previously said, I really like the Hougen hole cutters. However, on the second hole, I got off axis, and the cutter grabbed, breaking two of the carbide teeth. Another $30 or so gone.
> 
> View attachment 209642
> 
> 
> I almost got it right.
> 
> View attachment 209641
> 
> 
> View attachment 209640
> 
> 
> View attachment 209639
> 
> 
> After enlarging the holes slightly, everything fit. I then put on the adapters to JIC fittings. In the "It's always better to be lucky than good" category, there was barely enough clearance to put them on without interference. If they had hit, I would have gone to Swagelok.
> 
> View attachment 209638
> 
> 
> Installed. The rear pipes are 2" longer than the fronts to provide clearance for hoses. so it isn't too tight. They are angled because the hoses will have to come through on the side of the frame rail.
> 
> View attachment 209637


Is that seamless pipe


----------



## BossPlow2010

Hydromaster said:


> Thinking about racing it?


Crossed my mind...


----------



## Aerospace Eng

LapeerLandscape said:


> Is that seamless pipe


I don't recall. I'll check. It was rated for 5000 to 7000 psi, whereas the system relief is 2300.


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## Western1

Big ole MP would be nice!


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## Aerospace Eng

BossPlow2010 said:


> How fast does it go?


About 20 top speed (6th), which is faster than I need to go. About 15 in reverse (3rd), but I didn't use it much because I could lift the plow, turn inside 25', and windrow going the other way.

The plow eliminated the hobby horsing it was doing.


----------



## Aerospace Eng

Western1 said:


> Big ole MP would be nice!


Yep.

Hopefully this winter I will be able to try the 22' plow just to see if it works at all. That will help determine the wing size for the eventual plow. I don't want to go bigger than 16' in the center, so if I can push with the 22' plow, either 14 with 4' or 16 with 3'.


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## LapeerLandscape

Aerospace Eng said:


> I don't recall. I'll check. It was rated for 5000 to 7000 psi, whereas the system relief is 2300.


I used the black/welded pipe, then I heard it wasn't rated very good.


----------



## Western1

16 for sure if can


----------

