# Top of Parking Deck- new to me



## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

Customer has a parking deck in which I need to service. It is concrete. It is not one smooth flat area, it has the typical ups and downs and has concrete breaks in it.

The question is, since they do not want rock salt, what is the best product without breaking the bank? The area is 42,000 SQFT. I am unsure of spread rates for treated salt and calcium. I will have to use bagged prodcuts for my tailgate spreader.

The entire area to be serviced is 84,000 sqft and is made up of 3 seperate parking lots plus the roof top parking deck.

Im also considering bagged rock salt for the remainder of the areas, but its going to be alot of bags.

Also this is in the city which is new to us, never did a parkign deck before.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

not to erupt the debate on salt on concrete, but a lot of times parkades don't want to be salted because they don't want the concrete to degredate, and compromise the structure. I know on the parkade we do, if we have to put salt down, we go and clean it a hour or so later. By clean up, I mean push the slush area where there was ice, off the side. But on this place, we only spot apply by hand.


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

Red is parking deck
Pink is all other areas

What do you think 2 pickups?
1 Pickup 1 Skid with 8 foot box?

Like I said its in the city, not really close to anything else I have. They did it themselves last year, but paid too much overtime so they want to outsource


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

1.5- 2 hours with a truck and a skid, about the same hours (maybe a bit more) for two trucks.


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## bonerigo.1 (Nov 9, 2004)

i did a junky one for years. They had a rubber strip down the center that if we hit we'd be in big trouble. Cost like 50k to install. i watched the entire building corrode for about 5 yrs. we were limited to the bagged stuff they provided which was pretty much expensive kitty litter. Be prepared for snow to accumulate quick and often. With cold air underneath any snow will build up. Also if u wait (like i did) till the end of the storm there will be large drifts from wind and double the amount that you got at street level.


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## Kramer (Nov 13, 2004)

If you haven't done a parking garage in the past, you should probably take a look at the snow business mag from a few issues ago. They had a great article in there about a collapse situation due to snow load. Are you going to remove the snow from the top level or pile it in one area? I b elieve a lot of people want the snow removed. If you don't please consider the liability.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

MatthewG;1311894 said:


> Customer has a parking deck in which I need to service. It is concrete. It is not one smooth flat area, it has the typical ups and downs and has concrete breaks in it.
> 
> The question is, since they do not want rock salt, what is the best product without breaking the bank? The area is 42,000 SQFT. I am unsure of spread rates for treated salt and calcium. I will have to use bagged prodcuts for my tailgate spreader.
> 
> ...


There is a Gentleman on here named TCLA that has a Vast Knowledge on parking decks and what to use....You might want to PM him and pick his Brain....

What doe's the contract specify (if any) as to what type of ice melter to use....I know that alot of Parking decks do Not want any salt on them.....Also, Most would prefer a rubber or urethane cutting edges on the Plows


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## gd8boltman (Dec 18, 2002)

*Use liquid,*

two skid loaders with tracks, with a Kage or containment boxes, leave your snow buckets on site or near to remove snow from decks. Best to use rubber or urethane edge. Be wise bidding, they can take alot longer than you think when and if the wind gets whipping. If they want it removed from decks, prepare to be there often with the equipment to get it done. Another tip: take *LOTS* of preseason photos of surface, corners, and joints in the structure. I think trucks are not very effective for parking ramps, skid loaders are much more efficient. My guess, 2 skid loaders= 1.5 hrs. avg snowfalls tops. If there are curb stops everywhere, add a little time and make sure you know if they want the snow between curb stops and walls removed as well.

Good Luck!


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## nor'easter1 (Jan 28, 2003)

I have a parking deck similar to the one you describe. These is a lot of work that goes into trying to keep these things snow and ice safe. In terms of material I applied to the top of the garage I went with potassium Acetate which is a liquid solution. I bought it in 55 gallon drums and would pre treat as well as post treat with it. As other have stated any precip under 32-34 degrees will start sticking to the concrete. I found on my deck that this potassium would be good for a dusting to and inch or so. I spread it using a lawn tractor with 20 gallon spray boom on the back. A few other notes in the fall check all of the drains on the roof for debris and make sure they are clear if they are'nt you will have a skating rink nightmare on your hands. Second take pre-season pics of any and all cracks miss colored concrete as in rust and anyhting you can do to show prior abuse. These garages really don't stand up well cosmetically for snow and ice control measures so protect yourself.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

gd8boltman;1312068 said:


> two skid loaders with tracks, with a Kage or containment boxes, leave your snow buckets on site or near to remove snow from decks. Best to use rubber or urethane edge. Be wise bidding, they can take alot longer than you think when and if the wind gets whipping. If they want it removed from decks, prepare to be there often with the equipment to get it done. Another tip: take *LOTS* of preseason photos of surface, corners, and joints in the structure. I think trucks are not very effective for parking ramps, skid loaders are much more efficient. My guess, 2 skid loaders= 1.5 hrs. avg snowfalls tops. If there are curb stops everywhere, add a little time and make sure you know if they want the snow between curb stops and walls removed as well.
> 
> Good Luck!


Why would you put 2 skids at one location that isn't even big enough for one? There is only 2 acres of total pavement.


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## cphalen (Jan 20, 2011)

for that garage i would use a ski steer with plow attachment and rubber blade. on all our garages we have specs that require us to use calcium which we apply with a pick up truck with little spreader


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## Plow man Foster (Dec 10, 2010)

Kramer;1311944 said:


> If you haven't done a parking garage in the past, you should probably take a look at the snow business mag from a few issues ago. They had a great article in there about a collapse situation due to snow load. Are you going to remove the snow from the top level or pile it in one area? I b elieve a lot of people want the snow removed. If you don't please consider the liability.





JD Dave;1312314 said:


> Why would you put 2 skids at one location that isn't even big enough for one? There is only 2 acres of total pavement.


No offense it sounds like he has more equip. then he knows what to do with! UNLESS there is part of the story that we dont know about....

We do one in detroit and have one skid and one Kodiak on there. When plowing. When we Come back after the storm(and everything has calmed down) to haul the snow off, We bring more equip.

Also we use strictly Brine on it. Maybe a Mix (Rock and Brine(liquid) if its REALLLYYYY bad. But thats a pain because i have to send my site manager out to meet the landlord...and they have to agree upon our decision. 
But we usually just spray Liquid.


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

The owners of the property have always done this location themselves. However, they want to control costs, too much overtime paid last year, plus they own trucks, skids, loaders etc. that they want to sell. To free up cash.

I met with both top guys, they know their stuff, and they know the lots. Last year on the parking deck they stated "we use treated salt"

Im really asking what is appropriate for the deck, which some have answered. No salt as acknowledged by the guys I met with, just didn't know if I needed calcium or maybe a magic salt type of product.

This a 24-7 facility, it is tight, all lots are gated, that's why I figured a skidsteer would do good especially for moving snow.

Last, they keep a skidsteer on site under the parking garage, they will be removing the snow from the rooftop and they are doing all the sidewalks for the whole block


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

Use a poly blade or rubber. Watch out for the expansion joints. They are extremly expensive if you damage one and if you are lucky enough to not damage it but still catch your edge in it, it will hurt.

As for product most dont want salt because of the damge to the structure. There is alot of metal in the construction and no easy fix if any, once it starts to go. We do have one that they dont care and it gets salt. The others we have done get calcium. They purchased and we spread to protect costs. It came in 2000 lb bags on a pallet.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

JD Dave;1312314 said:


> Why would you put 2 skids at one location that isn't even big enough for one? There is only 2 acres of total pavement.


I guess it depends on how you look at the property. I think a 1/2 hour at each small lot, and then allowing a hour for both machines in the upper deck of that parkade isn't unreasonable. Those parkades are blown in 2-3 feet sometimes, lots of pony walls and misc obstacles, you spend a lot of time moving the snow to the one designated area. I can't speak for the original poster, but all the ones we do are a PITA and take way more time then a lot that is a open push


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*parking garage*

Sorry to see you get sucked into this;
you would think by now that they would
have installed a good sheet metal roof
on these garages by now due to the
weather conditions.

Have you considered the smallest 
snow melter to reduce your dependence
on deiciers?

You could tow the snow melter to the roof
when needed and use it in the lower parking
lots later.

I have always found it ironic/idiotic that
parking garages designed to be used in 
more temperate climates are used in the 
northeast with outroofs.

The issue is always one of expense as a 
roof over a top floor parking garage deck 
would solve the problem job and the owners 
life that much easier over the life of the 
parking garage.

In our case the municipality has been 
repairing and rebuilding the original parking 
garage that was constructed in the early 1970's
with continuous issue due to salt damage and 
icing in the drains.

The car wash we owned had heated floors and all the 
years we operated it we never had issues with with ice 
and snow build ups.

You might just have a forever client for the lower lots 
if you suggest installing hot antifreeze heat on the parking 
deck using a thick layer of asphault which is done 
in many instances as you will need zero deicing chemicals 
and simply need to plow and collect the snow or place it near 
an area that is designated for snow storage and melting 
used to melt the snow dumped there as it has a higher 
per square inch coverage of heated floor to melt the snow and ice.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

A lot of great answers here, and then there's......oh never mind.

If they don't want any salt on it (which is the proper directive) don't even consider using brine. It's more corrosive than salt and doesn't always work. A truck or skid steer with a v-blade (or wide out) will work best for you. Rubber or poly edge is a must...we prefer poly. Potassium acetate, NAAC, Peak PA, or pure CC (Peladow) are your top choices. Understand the application rates and the cost for each. Quantity of purchase will determine your costs. That's not a large area, you can easily use a bagged product (50 or 55lb bags) with a broadcast spreader. We do one parking deck where they want us to use bulk salt because all they care about is cost. We know it's wrong but like I said they don't care so we honor their request.

It will be the first thing that you will have to service as there is no ground temperature benefit. It will also be the only thing that will need servicing on many occasions. The expansion joints will cost you hard if you damage them.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Oops, I forgot to thank Mr. Matson for his kind words. Thank you sir.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*parking garage*

If you are unhappy with my posting-oh well,
It all comes down to cost and design and 
the fact that these types of garages are 
money pits for the owners whether they 
are private or municipalities.

You can thank the architects that do not 
implement the design of a heated deck to 
solve the problem of ice and snow from 
November 1st to April 15th based on the 
deck temperature and solve seasonal 
issues the first time and every time, 
oh well.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

buckwheat_la;1312359 said:


> I guess it depends on how you look at the property. I think a 1/2 hour at each small lot, and then allowing a hour for both machines in the upper deck of that parkade isn't unreasonable. Those parkades are blown in 2-3 feet sometimes, lots of pony walls and misc obstacles, you spend a lot of time moving the snow to the one designated area. I can't speak for the original poster, but all the ones we do are a PITA and take way more time then a lot that is a open push


He said it wasn't near any of his other work so I'm not sure why you'd tie up 2 skids for the night at a property that small. That job isn't going to pay enough for one let alone 2 skids from what the OP has stated.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

leon;1312421 said:


> If you are unhappy with my posting-oh well,
> .


You misunderstood me. I for one love your posts leon.

You're one of the most interesting posters here...your contributions are fantastic.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

JD Dave;1312435 said:


> He said it wasn't near any of his other work so I'm not sure why you'd tie up 2 skids for the night at a property that small. That job isn't going to pay enough for one let alone 2 skids from what the OP has stated.


Fair enough, sometimes I forget that when people talk about a job not being close to any other job, it isn't 5 minutes away, the hazards of living in a small city I guess


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*parking garage*



TCLA;1312437 said:


> You misunderstood me. I for one love your posts leon.
> 
> You're one of the most interesting posters here...your contributions are fantastic.


I sincerely offer my apology to you TCLA, 
Please forgive my error and my missunderstanding
of your posting as there was no excuse for my error.

I have only wanted for everyone to succeed in this business.
Its terribly unfortunate for the members that have to deal with 
problems like exposed parking garages with unheated top parking
decks as they of course are exposed to the weather and the owner of 
these structures fail to see the wisdom in installing a heated floor in 
the top parking deck which would solve all these issues.

The parking structures are built using long precast concrete panels 
much like precast highway bridge decks. The pre-cast decks 
usually have a layer of concrete pour on them as they are constructed
to add strength to the concrete panels and are post tensioned
with wire cable.The entire structure is constructed in this manner.
The concrete wall panels are precast and installed using a crane as well 
they may be tensioned with wire rope or interlocked into the parking 
deck and stacked one on top of the other and secured with wire rope.

The rubber gaskets are the expansion joints used to prevent the slabs 
from crushing against each other when the heat of the day forces the slabs to 
expand and then contract.

A fine example of this is the Wegmans markets warehouse in Rochester
where the company has property and they built a grocery warehouse 
skyscraper where the entire warehouse is automated and pallets of 
grocerys are retrieved and loaded by a sorting and retrieval system 
allowing huge numbers of pallets in storage in vertical structure at 
a very low cost per square foot due to the small foot print of the structure.

A parking garage could be and should be made with two or three rows 
in the structure decks reducing the size of the roof deck and allowing the
garage to employ an economical roof structure to solve all these issues.

:waving::salute:Thumbs Up


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

Kind of having a hard time with this one, so maybe someone can tell me if I'm on the right track

Again, key points here.....

-In city (with gated lots, not the safest area)
-not really close to my shop or other accounts (this could change though as Im meeting with a guy who needs help with a 4 acre lot 3 blocks away)
-Tight space
-24/7 facility
-calcium on roof, salt elsewhere, using bagged as of now

plowing starting at 1" my price $650
salt the whole joint $700

Too much too little? It needs to be worth it if Im doing it


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

I would say your high on the plowing. With your conditions I think you are closer but in a multiple bid situation high. Again I am in a differnt area so hopefully someone closer can help. 
I would say 3 hrs to plow around $100-125 hr with a skid. The only thing is where does the skid come from? does a truck bring it? If so what does the truck do? If a skid stays its not much to dedicate one to. Do you have an extra skid or truck or anything? I saw work hard to get the other lot to help make it all worthwhile.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Guys-

I agree with Dave. Unless they're paying top dollar and understand the expense of haning up a machine for the season on one small site why do it? Look for bigger and better sites, and one with less potential liability.

On the flip side. If they're keeping a skid steer on site to remove snow later on, then not only should your contract read you are not responsible for snow load, but do you really need a skid steer? Can you get paid for an operator and run their machine for "plowing", maybe supply the pusher yourself?

And last thought here- they're like everyone else it seems, looking to control costs. If that's their only motivation to use a vendor for this service I find it odd that they want to retain the shoveling/removal work? How many of the man hours were direct to plowing? I think once they see your proposal, they may like the overtime option a bit more than they realize.

I'm just sayin........


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

As an update, I signed a big contract yesterday, so I problably will pass on this, even though they didnt have a problem with my big number proposal.

The kicker, they only want me to do the snow removal if the forcast calls for 6" or more. Meaning if it forcasts 5" they would do it, but if the forcast is for anything more than 6" then I would do it.

Oviously just not practical and the main reason, all my equipment is busy servicing the regular contracts, its not like for a 6" storm i would have 2 extra trucks just sitting around.

I think Im going to pass despite the money, just isnt worth the liability and headache of city plowing. plus its net 45


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