# How long will it take?



## Vaughn Schultz

Howdy all, A little help would be greatly appreciated. I have been asked to place a bid on this lot for snow plowing. The the primary plow truck would be a F-450 with Blizzard 8611. Could you give me an estimate of how long it may take to plow this lot (providing the operator knows what they are doing  )

I am looking for any help that I can get, I know that there are so many variables that play in to effect, I am just looking for a ball park figure. I know that this is a hard and annoying question to ask but unfortunately it is a necessary evil for a new plower, I appreciate your time.

- Eric

Satellite View
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.753826,-88.185432&spn=0.003733,0.007328&t=k&hl=en

You may need to use the Zoom slide on the side of the pictuer, It will be blurry for a second then clear up after you let go to the mouse :waving:

Ground level


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## echovalley

2hrs avg. snow fall,not to many cars in the way etc.


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## flykelley

echovalley said:


> 2hrs avg. snow fall,not to many cars in the way etc.


I have to agree with echo on that time frame. Looks like alopt of long pushing, snow has to go to either end of tyhe lots. seems to me a loader with a push box would be in order.

Good Luck Mike


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## cet

On the heavy snowfalls you may not be able to go the long way. The windroes will pile up fast. On these snowfalls I would put the plow in scoop and make one push and then move over a few feet and make another push until you have made a lot of relief passes. Then go back to the start and clean the whole place up. It will be easy on the light snowfalls but very time consuming on the 6" plus ones.


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## T-MAN

Two hours should be more then enough for an 11' blade on a 1-3" storm. 1" storms will probally be barely an hour. 6" storms take more time on any lot and longs runs pile up but then the 8'6" plow will push better and move piles to the ends quicker and then a cleanup push-ful blade. 
Butthat is why you charge double for 6" storms right ? I dont think a loader and a box would be put too good use unless you have more sites real close for more use. That plow and truck will be perfect for this site  
Todd


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## earnies2

If the satalite pix is the lott i estamate it is about a 450 car lott? if that is correct you cant complete it in 2 hrs. The outer edge of the lott is full of spaces how many can they loose to snow there is a lot of vairibles to consider 
1,Are yuu one truck or a company of trucks
2,do you have loader capibilites (either yourown or contracted )
3,snow placement (can they loose spaces, and how many, can you use the grass for snow without being charged for dammages later)
4,Sand and salt (inhouse or contracted)
5,What kind of biseness are there or is it residental(if it is residential are they assigned spaces)
6,what are the hours of the biz
7,what are they requiring for liability insurance
8,Is there a peformance claws reqired in the contract

That is a good sized lott and during a blizzard(no pun intended) snow can fall in excess of a couple inches an hour it is verry easy to fall behind do you also have other lotts or driveways? is this your employment or do you have a job and plow on the side. I have been plowing for over 20 years and have seen plowers take on lotts they didnt have the equiptmeny or manpower to complete in a profesional methed and i've seen som of them who were sued and lost the sute and thier equiptment for the same reason. Thier are a lot of company's who say i got your back but whean the snow flyes its a differant ballgame they ment they got your back after they finnish all thier accounts (and they usually have more than they can handle).So my rule of thought if you cant handle it in house than get dedicated plowers under contract to plow for you!!!(and pay them after the storm not whean you get paid it goes a long way)   (I LIVE FOR SNOW)


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

This is going to take at least 3 hours to do on a 1" storm...

1. you have 14 medians that you have to deal with which i can tell you from experiance in a lot very similar to this is going to take you about 5 minutes a median if you want them to look good and allow full access

2 light poles and handi-cap signs are a nightmare.....you cant just make full pushes around them. you have to you either have to push around them then pile the remaining snow around the base and block up 4 parking spaces around each pole...or take and push out all the snow from around each pole...which is very time consuming but depending on how high profile this client would be then this might be the only way you would want it done.

3. dont forget about the 1000 liniar feet of side walk that has to be cleared also.....that going to take one guy at least an hour or more to do with a decent size snow blower.

I wouldnt take a contract this size on unless i was getting full salt an CC....this is where you will make your money you will probably unload about 2-4 tons a salt depending on conditions and about 5-10 bags of CC depending on conditions.

this would be a sweet acount to have....just make sure you bid it correctly and this will be a huge cash cow for you

Safe Plowing


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## Vaughn Schultz

Howdy all, Thanks for the help.

Do you have any idea what kind of dollars I should be looking to get out of this? I have a good inside on this lot and can have it for the price that the company had it for last year, that is

1-3" = $300.00 (Nice 1 inch trigger  )
4-5" = $441.00
6 and over (I need to come up with a price?) 

Is this in line at all? 
This is the price from one of the largest companies in the Chicago land area. I know this because I have last years contract on my desk  

Plus I Have no clue how to charge for salt!! 

any help would be greatly appreciated  

- Eric


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## T-MAN

When I originallly looked at this site I missed the "L" section to the north. I agree that it is probally closer to a 3 hour lot but not for a 1" push. 1" pushes go very fast especially when your making 10' wide pass'es. The finese work can be accomplished with salt  so really it is sweet when you get these type of events. 
Todd


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

i charge by the ton...I pay 47 and charge 120 
and for CC or tri i pay 8-12 and charge 28


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## flykelley

Grassbuster
There is alot to figure out.
1- Is the lot empty after a certain time, makes life easy when there are no cars around.
2- Around here salt is going for about 120.00 a ton, from what I can see you will about two tons per event depending on how much you are trying to burn off.
3- Yes the sidewalks will take longer than you think, plus where are you going to put the snow.
4- where will they let you put the snow from the lot itself? At each end or can you use some of the parking space's?
5- Driver experience will also come into play as will how much snow has fallen.
I have plowed lots that size in two hours but they wide open and had plenty of places to put snow. If you get 6 inchs plan on taking about almost twice as long.
I know this doesn't answer all of your questions but there are alot of things that will impact this bid. I have learned to bid a job and do the job for what I bid it and do a good job. I then know if I take good care of the customer I will have a good inside track for next year and will change my bid.

Regards Mike


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## cet

1-3" for $300 looks good to me.
My rule of thumb for salting is to charge the same as I do for plowing. I would charge $300 to salt that parking lot. Having said that, I buy bulk salt at $46/ ton. Any salt left over at the end of the run we put back in the shed. If you are buying from a local supplier you will pay 40% more and have to spread the whole load by the end of the run. There will be nights that you get away with a ton, but there will be nights that you need 3 tons.

How do you bill for a snowfall when you are out plowing and there is 2" on the ground, half way through the lot and there is now 4" on the ground. What is the price for that push?

We do very little by the push. They want a price for plowing,salting,sidewalks, the only extra is loader work.


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## T-MAN

How do you bill for a snowfall when you are out plowing and there is 2" on the ground, half way through the lot and there is now 4" on the ground. What is the price for that push?

Thats an easy one what was the total for that event? thats why you price 1-3, 3-6, 6-9 and up.If you told owners managers around here you get 100 and up you will have no work. Guys around here still charge 75 an hour and pad the hours and have ghost trucks to make the rate they need. Kinda like billing salt by the ton, the contractor never loses. One ton becomes 2, and 1.5 hours becomes 2. Why nick your customers too make a decent hourly rate.?
Todd


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## T-MAN

Five Star Lawn Care LLC said:


> 2 light poles and handi-cap signs are a nightmare.....you cant just make full pushes around them. you have to you either have to push around them then pile the remaining snow around the base and block up 4 parking spaces around each pole...or take and push out all the snow from around each pole...which is very time consuming but depending on how high profile this client would be then this might be the only way you would want it done.


 Actually there really not bad plow up to with your blade straight just touch the side and away you go to th end. There usually allways in line So next round come back and push both (unplowed sides) to 
you r windrow and away you go. I struggled for a while hand shoveling till my old Boss showed me the trick. Try to use your plow for everything, just get out of the truck to pee not shovel !!!
Todd


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

T-MAN said:


> Actually there really not bad plow up to with your blade straight just touch the side and away you go to th end. There usually allways in line So next round come back and push both (unplowed sides) to
> you r windrow and away you go. I struggled for a while hand shoveling till my old Boss showed me the trick. Try to use your plow for everything, just get out of the truck to pee not shovel !!!
> Todd


but it takes at least doulbe the time to plow a lot with poles then it takes to plow a lot without poles.....you still have to slow down going around the poles and you cant tell me that at 3 in the morning after a hard night you havent 2nd guessed yourself as to the location of the pole while you were backing up and nearly ***** yourself b/c one snuck up behind you...

thats the meathod that i also do them but in a 26K dump truck its a bit of a pain in the a$$


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

do you know the Sq ft of this lot?


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## T-MAN

Five Star Lawn Care LLC said:


> but it takes at least doulbe the time to plow a lot with poles then it takes to plow a lot without poles.....you still have to slow down going around the poles and you cant tell me that at 3 in the morning after a hard night you havent 2nd guessed yourself as to the location of the pole while you were backing up and nearly ***** yourself b/c one snuck up behind you...
> 
> thats the meathod that i also do them but in a 26K dump truck its a bit of a pain in the a$$


THis is were a pickup can double your big rigs time. I did one account with a ten footer last season, a large Jewel cut up pretty bad for a loader. Took about 1.5 hours too clear with the two rigs. I pushed around and out of everything and he moved the snow. Amazing how fast we could clear snow. I guess that may have something to do with the 810 I will hangin real soon  
Todd


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## Vaughn Schultz

Five Star Lawn Care LLC said:


> do you know the Sq ft of this lot?


I will tomorrow when I measure :salute:


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## Vaughn Schultz

T-MAN said:


> THis is were a pickup can double your big rigs time. I did one account with a ten footer last season, a large Jewel cut up pretty bad for a loader. Took about 1.5 hours too clear with the two rigs. I pushed around and out of everything and he moved the snow. Amazing how fast we could clear snow. I guess that may have something to do with the 810 I will hangin real soon
> Todd


This lot will have a pick-up with a 7'-6" blade and a F-450 with a 8611 and a V-box spreader. Should be a killer team 

Once again thanks for the help :waving:

- Eric


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

is the 450 going to have a dump body, stake body, flat bed?


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## Vaughn Schultz

Dump body. I'll post some pictures


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## cet

Five Star is right.
Backing up a plow truck with a V box salter in the back is slow. You will want to light up the back of that truck with lots of lights. My guys don't hit many things, but they have all hit something. You just pray it was the box of the truck and not the spinner on the salter.


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## Vaughn Schultz

two parts to this lot:

420 X 190 = 79800
219 X 122 = 26718

Total sq feet = 10,6518 Sq Feet

2.4 Acres  

Sidewalk is 520 feet long payup


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## Killswitch

Five Star Lawn Care LLC said:


> but it takes at least doulbe the time to plow a lot with poles then it takes to plow a lot without poles.....you still have to slow down going around the poles and you cant tell me that at 3 in the morning after a hard night you havent 2nd guessed yourself as to the location of the pole while you were backing up and nearly ***** yourself b/c one snuck up behind you...
> 
> thats the meathod that i also do them but in a 26K dump truck its a bit of a pain in the a$$


We were working a large lot and I watched a guy in an F350 with a 3 yard dump body run into a light pole with a large cement base at about 25 mph in reverse....lol

He was backing to make another pass and just wasted the back of the truck and spreader....and probably his head on the rear window....Doh!

The light pole didnt budge.

In the drivers defense anyone whos driven one of those small dumps can verify that you cant see **** behind you, but man oh man he wacked that thing.


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## Vaughn Schultz

Has anyone tried a back up camera?

Sounds perfect for this line of work


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## Killswitch

More Gizmos to go bad.


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

I would seriously think about getting your truck plumbed with central hydro and getting an undertailgate spreader for your dump truck......not having to deal with a seperate motor at 3am was well woth the extra money.....To be honest with you v boxes are disposable products i average about 4-5 years before they start giving you serious problems....and at 3 am when its snowing like crasy who want to be working on there salter


As far as the camera it would be a great idea if you could keep the lens clean...salt gets anywhere and everywhere....you would be lucky to be able to see out of the lens for more that 20 minutes even it was mounted on your cab protector it would still get salt all over it.


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## Vaughn Schultz

Five Star Lawn Care LLC said:


> I would seriously think about getting your truck plumbed with central hydro and getting an undertailgate spreader for your dump truck......not having to deal with a seperate motor at 3am was well woth the extra money.....To be honest with you v boxes are disposable products i average about 4-5 years before they start giving you serious problems....and at 3 am when its snowing like crasy who want to be working on there salter
> 
> As far as the camera it would be a great idea if you could keep the lens clean...salt gets anywhere and everywhere....you would be lucky to be able to see out of the lens for more that 20 minutes even it was mounted on your cab protector it would still get salt all over it.


Very good points, I will have to think about it 

Any idea what it cost for central hydraulics ?


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## Vaughn Schultz

Looks like I will save 2 grand just from buying a under tailgate Vs. a hopper  

Apply that two grand to converting it over to central hydraulics and it really shouldn't cost two much  

How is the spread pattern on them?


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

any where from 3000-3700

Then your looking at another 2100 for a SS spreader

the there is virtualy no maintenance what so ever...if you need to use your dump bed say like in the spring and fall when the seasons overlap a little then all you have to do is close your auger door and remover the spinner and your ready to roll for leaf removal or spring cleanups and you still have the option in likr 10 minutes to switch fully back to salt.

You will be able to haul more salt, they spread to evenly that its insane, 


But like a siad before the biggest thing is not haveing to worry about starting a motor ....B/c we all know when it gets below 10 F those engines start to become a pain in the ass...and thats the last thing you need.....

With this you flick a switch and set your auger speed and your spinner speed and throw your valve open and your spreading


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## Vaughn Schultz

Are you a sale man? My gosh you sold me 

So a V-box cost 5 grand and last for 4-5 years, with lots of maintenance. plus the fact you cant see out the back or put any thing ells in the back.

or spend 3400 on hydraulics and 2100 on a spreader total 5600 (estimate) 

Have very little maintenance, see more clearly, more reliable, spreads better, cheaper to maintain, stores much nicer in the off season, and allows you to use the bed for other things?


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

heres a link to some pics of my dump....i think you would love a undertailgate

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=15674&page=3&pp=20


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## Vaughn Schultz

Five Star Lawn Care LLC said:


> heres a link to some pics of my dump....i think you would love a undertailgate
> 
> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=15674&page=3&pp=20


Nice truck 

Only problem is I don't have any idea were to have this done  Not in the phone book I just looked up hydraulics and found no 
good leads


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## T-MAN

Find a medium duty truck upfitter. There are a few up this way if you want to drive up here, what about Regional out of Elgin? They sell plows and salters.
Todd


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

look for truck equipment places....there is a crap load near chicago....we acctually had out truck done at team truck sales in lemont


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## Killswitch

That is one sweet rig there Five Star.


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## cet

Hydraulic is the only way to go. They make a tailgate replacement model as well as an undermount like Five Star has. You may want to look at the tailgate model because with the box up the spinner is very close to the ground. His truck sits higher then yours will so he does not have this problem. I have a 3500HD and I had to take the undermount off as it did not spread the salt far enough with the box up.

Try www.bonnell.com
model R161-DD

This system also has a dual auger.


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## mike_09

If it were me and its over 8in i would charge 75 an hour and take my good al time and make some payup.


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

mike_09 said:


> If it were me and its over 8in i would charge 75 an hour and take my good al time and make some payup.


Yikes....with that truck he should be shooting for around 130-145 an hour on production ......i wouldnt get out of bed for less that 100 an hour even with my pick-ups.


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## Vaughn Schultz

*I got the account*

Thanks a lot guys and possibly girls for all the help that you have given me. So have a good morning and in case I don't see you good afternoon, good evening and good night


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## Five Star Lawn Care LLC

Thats huge man!!!! thats so awesome :yow!: :yow!: :yow!: :yow!: 

did you get full salt and sidewalk salting?


What were your #'s if you dont mind me asking

Im really excited for you....its an awesome feeling when you land a big account.

Just remeber what the main goal in every snow removal paln is.....To reduce the risk of a slip & fall 

If you have any other Questions dont be afraid to ask.....the stupidest question is the question never asked


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## Vaughn Schultz

I will PM you the #


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## Vaughn Schultz

Thought I would bring this back up This truck can plow this lot with 4'' on it, in under an hour

Thank you for the help guys


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## T-MAN

Thats great Eric, more cha ching in your pocket. That is what a Blizzard power plow can do for you. I dont care what you run next to them (even with there small problems) they can not be beat ! Fools make claims of v-plows and straight blades that can move snow as fast, but there only kidding themselves. I have one apartment complex that my time is 50% lower.
Well your living proof to all the doubting thomas's ( i used to be one as well).
Oh ya when I estimate I figure for an 8' straights production times,and hourly rates. Keeps you inline with the competition and the rest is money in the bank dude. 
I am happy for your success, and if you need any more help just ask.
Nice to have met you at Hooters (in Cuba lol)
Todd


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