# Going broke in the Mid West



## Eyesell (Nov 7, 2003)

Guys,

Not sure what everyone else is doing in these tough times but I suspect we'll all see a lot of equipment for sale if things don't change soon.

Is anyone else out there feeling my pain ?

Signed,
Getting Desperate


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Eyesell;2108190 said:


> Guys,
> 
> Not sure what everyone else is doing in these tough times but I suspect we'll all see a lot of equipment for sale if things don't change soon.
> 
> ...


I've already seen a couple of 1 season used plows for sale here in PA.

I have news for everyone, not every winter is a making money hand over fist type of year, don't rely on plowing income, consider it a bonus!


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## brianbrich1 (Dec 3, 2010)

As a company I do rely on winter income. It is also why every year I try to have a good percentage split of per push to seasonal. Winters like this is when I look to prey on the guy thinking he was getting into an immediate gold mine and needs to sell off equipment.


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

brianbrich1;2108206 said:


> As a company I do rely on winter income. It is also why every year I try to have a good percentage split of per push to seasonal. Winters like this is when I look to prey on the guy thinking he was getting into an immediate gold mine and needs to sell off equipment.


100%.. we are about a 70/30 for seasonals too!! It's a must..


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## NorthernSvc's (Mar 12, 2006)

Majority of my customers this year are seasonal - I try to keep it as close to 50/50 as I can, you have to have some to cover years like this... I am also looking forward to the end of year auctions


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

So do your seasonal people get pissed off when they have to pay for nothing .
Just wondering . I know its like insurance but seems like most people wouldn't see the value when it hasnt snowed.


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## brianbrich1 (Dec 3, 2010)

quigleysiding;2108239 said:


> So do your seasonal people get pissed off when they have to pay for nothing .
> Just wondering . I know its like insurance but seems like most people wouldn't see the value when it hasnt snowed.


No as most are a low tolerance to snow and view as insurance. Hospitals or medical facilities. They are also multi year deals with no caps to balance out. One year seasonals get a cap


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## wahlturfcare (Oct 24, 2005)

i always plan on alot of tree work in the winter time and house repair jobs to keep the guys busy. As snow removal here is always hit and miss. And nobody here would even hire you if you did seasonal payments.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes a mixture is a must as most have stated... Best other advice would be find a lake and move to the E/SE side of it....


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## brianbrich1 (Dec 3, 2010)

wahlturfcare;2108245 said:


> i always plan on alot of tree work in the winter time and house repair jobs to keep the guys busy. As snow removal here is always hit and miss. And nobody here would even hire you if you did seasonal payments.


Companies that elect to do seasonal are usually not your mom and pop businesses. It usually falls to larger corporations looking for a fixed cost and to no there winter services are secure. As stated my seasonals are on the low tolerance to winter conditions.


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## Eyesell (Nov 7, 2003)

So my take on this....with seasonal s some one is always going to get screwed. And this is really the TRUE first year, in a long time, it would of totally gone in favor of the plowing guys. 

This is not all cases, but you either plow more events than what you are getting paid for, cause no one has a crystal ball, or you don't plow much and the customer is still paying. In my mine, why run the risk. As someone else suggested, you may run the risk of losing a good customer even though he/she agreed to it at the beginning of the year.

Don't kid yourself, if I had to write a check for 2 or 3 months for a service I didn't need I too would be frustrated. Call it what you want, insurance policy, whatever, but at the end of the day we keep it 90/10 and the only reason there is even 10% is we do have some that insist, but they are smaller customers.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

quigleysiding;2108239 said:


> So do your seasonal people get pissed off when they have to pay for nothing .
> Just wondering . I know its like insurance but seems like most people wouldn't see the value when it hasnt snowed.


Seasonals have nothing to do with insurance, your going to take care of the property no matter how your paid. It's all about the number for them to budget most have to set budgets the prior year so the insurance is they have a solid budget number. It also lets you as a contractor budget for that property, rentals etc... Anyone running a seasonal with caps is just an open checkbook and great if you can pull it off on your customer.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Eyesell;2108256 said:


> So my take on this....with seasonal s some one is always going to get screwed. And this is really the TRUE first year, in a long time, it would of totally gone in favor of the plowing guys.
> 
> This is not all cases, but you either plow more events than what you are getting paid for, cause no one has a crystal ball, or you don't plow much and the customer is still paying. In my mine, why run the risk. As someone else suggested, you may run the risk of losing a good customer even though he/she agreed to it at the beginning of the year.
> 
> Don't kid yourself, if I had to write a check for 2 or 3 months for a service I didn't need I too would be frustrated. Call it what you want, insurance policy, whatever, but at the end of the day we keep it 90/10 and the only reason there is even 10% is we do have some that insist, but they are smaller customers.


But you have to look at it from the other side. In a big snow year the client will get more services than paid for. Its not a one year thing but more of an average over the years. If it were say 3 snowless winters in a row they might want to rethink but 1 120% winter and they made there money back


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I signed 6 new seasonals this fall. I have lost 4 of them already. We had no servicable days in Jan. but we did do them once a week to clean things up. They are 2" trigger. I may look at lowering the trigger next year and raising the prices slightly, or putting a cap on.

I had projects planned, a new carb and intake for one truck, new tires for another, purchasing another broom, and a new stander mower for next year. Installing the new furnace that's sitting in the corner of the shop, new garage door.
None of that is happening.
Have had several unplanned repairs of equipment, even with so little snow. That has taken up a chunk of $$$ too.

It is frustrating.


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## xgiovannix12 (Dec 8, 2012)

I have a mixture of per push and seasonals as well.. My seasonals are keeping up with the bills. Sadly no profit this year but what can we do.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

90% seasonal with a contract,, pre-pay ( two installments),
with a cap @ 1" trigger. Salt & shoveling/snow blowing are extra.

The contractor always comes out ahead.

Just fallow the GV business model.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

brianbrich1;2108206 said:


> As a company I do rely on winter income. It is also why every year I try to have a good percentage split of per push to seasonal. Winters like this is when I look to prey on the guy thinking he was getting into an immediate gold mine and needs to sell off equipment.


One of the best things that we have done to reduce our reliance on winter money is restructuring our insurance premiums.... Something that you may want to look into. Seasonal accounts are a must for anyone in this business.



quigleysiding;2108239 said:


> So do your seasonal people get pissed off when they have to pay for nothing .
> Just wondering . I know its like insurance but seems like most people wouldn't see the value when it hasnt snowed.


Nope, because they know it is an average. As others have said, the key is to do seasonal for multiple years so it averages out.



Eyesell;2108256 said:


> So my take on this....with seasonal s some one is always going to get screwed. And this is really the TRUE first year, in a long time, it would of totally gone in favor of the plowing guys.
> 
> This is not all cases, but you either plow more events than what you are getting paid for, cause no one has a crystal ball, or you don't plow much and the customer is still paying. In my mine, why run the risk. As someone else suggested, you may run the risk of losing a good customer even though he/she agreed to it at the beginning of the year.
> 
> Don't kid yourself, if I had to write a check for 2 or 3 months for a service I didn't need I too would be frustrated. Call it what you want, insurance policy, whatever, but at the end of the day we keep it 90/10 and the only reason there is even 10% is we do have some that insist, but they are smaller customers.


I don't see why you would try and deter a seasonal customer, again, you're looking at it all wrong. A seasonal isn't meant to be a good one year solution.



jonniesmooth;2108281 said:


> I signed 6 new seasonals this fall. I have lost 4 of them already. We had no servicable days in Jan. but we did do them once a week to clean things up. They are 2" trigger. I may look at lowering the trigger next year and raising the prices slightly, or putting a cap on.
> 
> I had projects planned, a new carb and intake for one truck, new tires for another, purchasing another broom, and a new stander mower for next year. Installing the new furnace that's sitting in the corner of the shop, new garage door.
> None of that is happening.
> ...


Did they cancel per the terms of your contract?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

JimMarshall;2108291 said:


> One of the best things that we have done to reduce our reliance on winter money is restructuring our insurance premiums.... Something that you may want to look into. Seasonal accounts are a must for anyone in this business.
> 
> Nope, because they know it is an average. As others have said, the key is to do seasonal for multiple years so it averages out.
> 
> ...


Yes, they did. No refund.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

> Don't kid yourself, if I had to write a check for 2 or 3 months for a service I didn't need I too would be frustrated. Call it what you want, insurance policy, whatever, .


Do you Pay your INS premium every month?
why? You dont make a claim every month.

It is, a prepay service, like a gym, gun club, you pay every month.
without refund even if you dont go.

They sign up because they know sooner or later it is going to snow.
and they can budget for it. no surprises.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Eyesell;2108256 said:


> So my take on this....with seasonal s some one is always going to get screwed. And this is really the TRUE first year, in a long time, it would of totally gone in favor of the plowing guys.
> 
> I thought you had been in business a long time. No one gets screwed, not if you know what you're doing. This is an ignorant statement.
> 
> ...


You don't seem to grasp snow and ice management as a business, only a sideline, if that.

Not to mention, winter is far from over. We have 2 potentially solid months left. And if you don't think we can get hammered in March, you shouldn't be in this business.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;2108305 said:


> Not to mention, winter is far from over. We have 2 potentially solid months left. And if you don't think we can get hammered in March, you shouldn't be in this business.


Thumbs Up
On the last ElNino cycel we received more snow in April than we did all year, all most our seasonal avg, in one month.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;2108307 said:


> Thumbs Up
> On the last ElNino cycel we received more snow in April than we did all year, all most our seasonal avg, in one month.


I remember that...........I think it was right before I took a vacay from PS.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2108310 said:


> I remember that...........I think it was right before I took a vacay from PS.


So your saying I shouldn't start picking up equipment this week? But AccuWeather has 50's by the end of the month....


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## andersman02 (May 5, 2012)

I could care less if it snows or doesnt, We are probably 80%seasonal. As others have stated, our company doesnt truly need plowing for income. Seasonals are the best IMO, just make sure you price them high enough


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1;2108315 said:


> So your saying I shouldn't start picking up equipment this week? But AccuWeather has 50's by the end of the month....


Do whatever you want. Thumbs Up

Eyesell says it's OVER!


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;2108319 said:


> Eyesell says it's OVER!


I thought Eyesell was a skinny guy.........


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;2108324 said:


> I thought Eyesell was a skinny guy.........


Looks like he's trying to fill Defcon's shoes..................never happen.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;2108328 said:


> Looks like he's trying to fill Defcon's shoes..................never happen.


I know, hes not a fat lady, like Defcon.......


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

This is a tough gig, don't matter how you slice it. Seasonals are a hard sell here. Possible, but usually only with a business. And you end up being a slave to them, because they believe they bought your very soul with that first seasonal payment. I get by because plowing was a fall back business in case we get huge amounts of snow that make logging far less productive.

My advice for anyone who plows is to find a way to diversify. You need several revenue streams. At least 2 that are not related to each other by something that can kill both incomes with one unforseen problem.
(Like your truck dropping a transmission)....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;2108331 said:


> I know, hes not a fat lady, like Defcon.......


I seem to recall someone told me that he was told not to go through life fat, stupid and drunk.

That's a pretty tall order for him.........


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

We have all seasonal except one or 2. Last year was one of the worst years seen in a long time we made it through just okay. This year we plowed twice in November and December. We had a lot of salting in January and just a few plows but nobody complained because they know it all evens out. 

Had one guy think about switching to per trip last year and he was so happy at the end of the year that he didn't. Now we know we won't be getting any complaints from them about that for a while.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Just because today marks Black History Month, doesn't mean ****** won't show up!


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## allagashpm (Sep 29, 2012)

It is tough to depend on snow for income without seasonals, and quite frankly a poor business model. Like others have stated look at it as bonus money and always budget for a lean winter. 
Then when it's not you have a windfall, but when it is youre not freaking out or going to go out of business because it didn't snow. 
I do residential and no one has been interested in a seasonal rate, so I budget accordingly.


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## NorthernSvc's (Mar 12, 2006)

all new residential customers are seasonal - only per time ones I still have are old customers that have been with me from the start... all contracts are paid upfront in full prior to November 1st - if they don't like it they can take their business elsewhere - to much of a pain trying to collect on small amounts if you end up with a PITA... anyone that complains usually does not get a contrract the ext year or their price goes up. Commercial properties are the only ones I will still give per time contracts to- but most want seasonal contracts as well.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

SnoFarmer;2108287 said:


> 90% seasonal with a contract,, pre-pay ( two installments),
> with a cap @ 1" trigger. Salt & shoveling/snow blowing are extra.
> 
> The contractor always comes out ahead.
> ...


If your seasonals are complaining ,you dump them. As always you plan for the worst and hope for no snow. I've been out 4-5 times this season, no one is complaining they are very happy its not snowing. I do a lot of appointment type places and the last thing they want is a lot of snow as to were people start cancelling appointments,then they need to reschedule them, that costs them a lot more then what they will ever pay me. And there is always the fear of the next big one.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Snow amounts and frequency vary so mulch along the FR of NoCo seasonal's are almost unheard of. The season started off a little late this year and we're still a little behind but our snowiest months March and April are yet to come. Our last big El Nino was in '03 or 04 and we got hammered in March with one storm leaving 4' on the ground. 
BTW ****** did show up last night and it's still snowing so I put ****** to work this morning.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Well get out there and try out those led lights, Dogs waiting for pics. Everything is melting here.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

grandview;2108413 said:


> If your seasonals are complaining ,you dump them..


I let them whine a couple of times, if they pay on time.
Then next year, I jack up my price just for listening to their problems with a sympathetic ear.



BUFF;2108447 said:


> Snow amounts and frequency vary so mulch along the FR of NoCo seasonal's are almost unheard of.


All,of mine are first timers, they never heard of seasionals.
Untill I sold the idea, that it was like buying snow insurance,
They jumped right on board.
It's the craziest thing.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

SnoFarmer;2108455 said:


> All,of mine are first timers, they never heard of seasionals.
> Untill I sold the idea, that it was like buying snow insurance,
> They jumped right on board.
> It's the craziest thing.


Wow you must have some sweet people skills, ever consider going on tour......


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

BUFF;2108484 said:


> Wow you must have some sweet people skills, ever consider going on tour......


I honed them at the age of 19 at crusty butt resort as a lift OP.
I was honored with being employee of the week and employee of the month.
It was from my interactions with the tourrons.
Its an art, as you know.
I can turn it on and off,
Default is off.:laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF;2108484 said:


> Wow you must have some sweet people skills, ever consider going on tour......


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;2108492 said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:


I know right, all the way to the bank.
As you know it's all aboot the bank account.payup

No fool'en, just like littel birds, eating out of your hand.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Seasonal sucks! We never did them, and it all worked out fine.


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## shooterm (Feb 23, 2010)

Blows me away looking at some guys in my town with brand new everything for snowplowing. They mow lawns during the off season. Funny thing is if you've plowed for any amount of time everyone knows each other from construction trades yet nobody has heard of these guys. The Snow Ranger and his brand new loan payments. They just go away every few years its like the seasons here.


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## johnnywaz (Oct 16, 2015)

2/2/2015 had 16.7 inch snowstorm. I don't think winter is quite over yet.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I get compensated by reading Plowsite.


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## johnnywaz (Oct 16, 2015)

1olddogtwo;2108601 said:


> I get compensated by reading Plowsite.


Hahahaha....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

1olddogtwo;2108601 said:


> I get compensated by reading Plowsite.


I'd be a brazillionaire!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

1olddogtwo;2108601 said:


> I get *constipated* by reading Plowsite.


fixed it.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

grandview;2108609 said:


> fixed it.


See what I mean priceless....cha ching


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

1olddogtwo;2108601 said:


> I get compensated by reading Plowsite.


Had to read that twice swore it said "constipated" first time...


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Ajlawn1;2108616 said:


> Had to read that twice swore it said "constipated" first time...


does now.........


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Ajlawn1;2108616 said:


> Had to read that twice swore it said "constipated" first time...


Wow day late....:laughing:


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

My phone is going off the hook with all the PS replies?? Interrupting my poker games!! Com on guys


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

WIPensFan;2108531 said:


> Seasonal sucks! We never did them, and it all worked out fine.


do tell ,grandpa.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

I don't know our percentages of seasonals vs per push but I do know all of our per pushes pay for a set number of pushes regardless. In our case they pay us for 12 pushes which is about one half of normal. You could look at it as a retainer.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

All my drives are seasonal, and my Comercial is 30% seasonal. If this winter holds like this (which I dought), I can't wait to have this conversation with my customers. The seasonals are doing exactly what they are supposed to, keep me in business with a winter like this. 2 years ago they did exactly what they were supposed to do the other way, keep the customer within they're budget so they could pay the mortgage. They balance out about every 4.25 years in my area with my numbers. I'm profiting greatly off my salt run this year. Nobody is getting screwed either way.


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

I laugh my a$$ off at plows being sold off in slow snow years. Snow is a bonus in my opinion. Gotta work and be smart enough to put back enough to sit on your rump if you don't get it. 

I agree with a previous post that someone is getting screwed one way or another with seasonals. Average this average that but it never turns out completely fair. I charge per push for all our contracts. Everyone can be assured at the end of snow season, nobody got butt hurt from to much snow or not enough. if it doesn't snow, cool, I will be on the boat crappie fishing. I've been fishing the last 4 days and tomorrow pushing 60 degrees!!!!! Let's make it 5 in a row!! I'll come home and find good deals on Craigslist when I get done fishing. Treat it like a bonus because you cannot DEPEND on it.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

snowcrazy;2108692 said:


> I laugh my a$$ off at plows being sold off in slow snow years. Snow is a bonus in my opinion. Gotta work and be smart enough to put back enough to sit on your rump if you don't get it.
> 
> I agree with a previous post that someone is getting screwed one way or another with seasonals. Average this average that but it never turns out completely fair. I charge per push for all our contracts. Everyone can be assured at the end of snow season, nobody got butt hurt from to much snow or not enough. if it doesn't snow, cool, I will be on the boat crappie fishing. I've been fishing the last 4 days and tomorrow pushing 60 degrees!!!!! Let's make it 5 in a row!! I'll come home and find good deals on Craigslist when I get done fishing. Treat it like a bonus because you cannot DEPEND on it.


 Average this average that but it never turns out completely fair.
But it does, if your numbers are correct. The averages have held true in SE MI for 30+ years, even with the crazy swings the last few.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

farness,
What's fair 
Is it the price that is agreed to?
Be it a seasonal or per push?

Making a profit is why I do this.
Without profit there is no next year or food on my table

It's not chairty work.


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

I guess it is all about your location also. Here in southern Ohio I'd say getting seasonal contracts would be pretty hard. I see that both of you are in butthole deep snow states so I see where you guys are coming from..... I remember my first year I bought a plow truck. I had 3 accounts. 2" trigger. Never set the blade down once. Salted 3 times. See what I mean? Good luck getting seasonals. Then we have a nutty year like last year. It never seems consistent. I also live in an area where we normally get 23-25 mowing weeks which is how I bank my money where snowier areas depend on snow. I get it.


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## bel-nor (Dec 10, 2009)

Good evening gentlemen, the Midwest has suffered, however good business people take some risk. My first plow I bought in the month of March dressed in only a long sleeve shirt, and tucked it away for the season way in the back of storage space. One week later scrambling to get it out and make money. 

Grass will surely grow and snow and ice will fall. Be prepared and work safely. The Midwest gets more snow/ice mid February through mid March. Salt prices are very low and if possible store it cheap for next year. Mean while I will try to get a few more rabbit hunts in and a little fishing if possible. I bought some new equipment, snow or not Im not selling anything, I invest/take risk. Years back a guy asked me how long does it take to make your money back on a plow, I said by the time it rusts all the way through I will have broke even...lol. Bulk salt and ice control is where the money is seasonal, per spread and one timers come one come all.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Profit is not a dirty word.

Greed is good.


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## SourDeezBurnr (Feb 2, 2016)

*my $.02*

I have been in business here in Boston, MA for 3 years. I agree with everyone above that seasonal accounts are a must. Winter is hit or miss. Last year we got hit with 112" and today it was 55* outside and barley 10" have accumulated this season. My accounts are 50/50 season or per pass, may even lean 60/40. Per visit accounts being banks and colleges that have low snow tolerance but opt to pay every visit. To be on my route it cost $500 and you still pay every time I come. Seasonals are paid in full before service is provided and you are limited to a xx" cap, afterwards you receive a per inch fee directly derived from you season fee. Here in MA the way the market has changed after last season 40%+ of the local snow businesses closed from under bidding or not contracting their services properly. With all the available business and commonwealth style market everyone has a full plate. To help lock in season contracts offer incentives to consumers. If someone ever asks me "what happens if it doesn't snow" I just tell them that if under xx" accumulates you will get 10% in other services we provide. Hope this helps I'm 23 and have a Mechanical Engineering degree and found more money in snow and mulch than I did else where.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Seasonal or per push,makes no difference to me.I've had both,all per push now. It all averages out.If your self disciplined they both work out the same.Good year,save enough for a bad year.I'm still living off of last years windfall.Its just that your financial cycle is at opposite ends of the spectrum with seasonal vs per push.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Seasonal starts with a full pot of money and per push starts with an empty pot, Both want money in it at the end of the season.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

I do not let the Pot run out - So I never start empty. This year will weed out a lot of the gold diggers. 2nd bad year in a row. But that is why I have sent the Wife to work.


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## bel-nor (Dec 10, 2009)

Never tried to sell seasonal s....Oh believe me this is "The Show Me" State. A few accounts require an escrow payment in US currency. Everyone likes to believe it will not snow here. Then the Oh Sh$t and WTF factor starts coming down. Business owners take the risk of not establishing a relationship with Snow servicers here and some guys make it clear "You called me during a severe storm we'll start at $500". I have heard this and think that's tuff....maybe a better price from a lowballer or available servicer comes along.

I was lucky to deal with the same commercial and residential customers on repeat basis. I will prepare quotes to fill in gaps along the route and price to make a profit..especially on Ice control.


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## UltraLwn&Lndscp (Oct 20, 2013)

I feel for a lot of guys out there. That said, I feel great about this winter. We made up for December in January snow wise. We were also landscaping in December. If we get buried the next 60-70 days, great. If not great. I will be working 70 hour weeks in a few months sweating my arse off. Let it snow, or let it be slow. Seasonals win here. I like my few per pushes as well, they got smoked last season.

I am working on a pair of hardscape/landscape estimates in the morning. 2016 Lawn and Landscape contacts are printed and signed on my desk. I will take this time with my family and enjoy it if it doesn't snow much more. ussmileyflag


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

snowcrazy;2108692 said:


> I laugh my a$$ off at plows being sold off in slow snow years. Snow is a bonus in my opinion. Gotta work and be smart enough to put back enough to sit on your rump if you don't get it.
> 
> I agree with a previous post that someone is getting screwed one way or another with seasonals. Average this average that but it never turns out completely fair. I charge per push for all our contracts. Everyone can be assured at the end of snow season, nobody got butt hurt from to much snow or not enough. if it doesn't snow, cool, I will be on the boat crappie fishing. I've been fishing the last 4 days and tomorrow pushing 60 degrees!!!!! Let's make it 5 in a row!! I'll come home and find good deals on Craigslist when I get done fishing. Treat it like a bonus because you cannot DEPEND on it.


All the people that say you cannot rely on snow money are typically the one truck guys, and they probably cannot do that. We on the other hand include snow income as a major part of our income regardless of how much or how little snow we get. 
We've invested over $70,000 in new snow equipment, not including the new trucks this equipment is mounted too this season.plus built a new salt bin, plus filled it. 
Snow is a great profit center regardless of if we get 30" or 70"


----------



## bel-nor (Dec 10, 2009)

Big Pux from Philly says early spring!


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Superior L & L;2109042 said:


> All the people that say you cannot rely on snow money are typically the one truck guys, and they probably cannot do that. We on the other hand include snow income as a major part of our income regardless of how much or how little snow we get.
> We've invested over $70,000 in new snow equipment, not including the new trucks this equipment is mounted too this season.plus built a new salt bin, plus filled it.
> Snow is a great profit center regardless of if we get 30" or 70"


Are you saying that large multi truck operations can magically make money from snow that doesn't exist? Regardless of your size, it is not a good idea to plan on snow income.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JimMarshall;2109049 said:


> Are you saying that large multi truck operations can magically make money from snow that doesn't exist? Regardless of your size, it is not a good idea to plan on snow income.


Why not???


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

JimMarshall;2109049 said:


> Are you saying that large multi truck operations can magically make money from snow that doesn't exist? Regardless of your size, it is not a good idea to plan on snow income.


Biggest snow companies that I know only do snow and have the nicest newest stuff.... They must be doing something right or doing it for fun maybe....


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Mark Oomkes;2109051 said:


> Why not???


Because it's too inconsistent in my opinion, unless the majority of your work is seasonal. The. You run the risk of customers cancelling halfway through because they aren't getting any snow. I'm not saying it's bad to expect snow income, everyone in the business does, but I think it's a bad idea to rely on it - as in "It needs to snow some more or I'm going out of business". All your eggs shouldn't be in the snow removal basket, or at least their hatching shouldn't be dependent on it snowing . JMO, and if anyone who has done this longer and has more knowledge cares to give a rebuttal, I'd be thrilled to hear it. Always love to learn


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Ajlawn1;2109055 said:


> Biggest snow companies that I know only do snow and have the nicest newest stuff.... They must be doing something right or doing it for fun maybe....


Perhaps I was a little off in my wording, and my point didn't come across as intended. There are obviously situations where you can count on snow income - seasonal contracts, companies thabrequire a retainer to be put on their list, etc. If that's how your business model is, absolutely rely on snow. If you're doing all little residential stuff, you better have money squirreled away from summer in case you have a winter like we've gotten so far.


----------



## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

When I first quit my full time job 10 yrs ago to go full time lawn care, I bought a plow and a tailgate spreader and started offering snow removal because I needed some source of cash flow in the winter. It helped and was more profitable than sitting at home on the sofa watching TV. That being said, I learned within my first couple years that, as others have said above, you have to work hard enough in the summer and put some of it away to get you through the winter w/o snow. I make sure that I end the month of October (the end of my mowing season) with enough in the bank to cover my bills and still pay myself from November through March even with almost no snow. Unless you live out east where they are pretty much guaranteed SOME snow, you just HAVE TO budget accordingly.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JimMarshall;2109061 said:


> Because it's too inconsistent in my opinion, unless the majority of your work is seasonal. The. You run the risk of customers cancelling halfway through because they aren't getting any snow. I'm not saying it's bad to expect snow income, everyone in the business does, but I think it's a bad idea to rely on it - as in "It needs to snow some more or I'm going out of business". All your eggs shouldn't be in the snow removal basket, or at least their hatching shouldn't be dependent on it snowing . JMO, and if anyone who has done this longer and has more knowledge cares to give a rebuttal, I'd be thrilled to hear it. Always love to learn


Residential customers are seasonal, paid in full up front. They cancel, they might get a refund. Depends on how much snow we've had, I'm not going to be an arse.

Commercial customers don't cancel due to lack of snow. Never heard of it. If they wanted to, I wouldn't want them as a customer. Do they cancel fire insurance if they don't use it? Liability insurance?

As I said, someone has to pay me to get my equipment prepped, operational, materials on hand, etc.

I know it's regional. I get it. But it's also a matter of educating the customer. They need to understand that profit is not something to be ashamed of plus in order to provide them the service they need, they _have_ to have some skin in the game.

Like Herm stated, we have minimums as well as maximums, to protect us as well as our customers so we can continue to provide them the services they need to continue to operate. It doesn't do anybody any good for a service provider to go out of business because they either can't at least cover their prep costs or go out because of an extreme winter. The weather is not something we control.

So yes, I do rely on snow income. I would have been out of business 20+ years ago if I didn't. And I wouldn't be have near the equipment I do if I didn't.


----------



## bel-nor (Dec 10, 2009)

Well said Derek, C&C (couch & corn flakes) can be depressing with or without banked money. I like working, even in the Midwest winters, and at 58 years old I like snow always will. Every time you leave the house you're spending money, make it a habit to make some money also.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

JimMarshall;2109062 said:


> Perhaps I was a little off in my wording, and my point didn't come across as intended. There are obviously situations where you can count on snow income - seasonal contracts, companies thabrequire a retainer to be put on their list, etc. If that's how your business model is, absolutely rely on snow. If you're doing all little residential stuff, you better have money squirreled away from summer in case you have a winter like we've gotten so far.


No everyone's business is obviously structured different but to be honest if all I had was residentials I would be looking for a 9-5 during the winter and hitting them beforehand... There might be guys out there that do that and can make it of residentials but my guess would be you better have an a$$ load...:laughing: Everyone here knows their business and locations and what they can expect from year to year, I mean I have some medical that I gamble on year after year by renting 25k worth of equipment for that is not a seasonal but I know it will recover that even in worse case scenarios and in the major storms we look like rock stars! Everyone's business is different and you should know what you can and cannot do or what you need to do....


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I am %100 prepay contract. I lost %6 of my people when I converted from pay as you go to contract 2 years ago.

what I gained was $ in the fall when I spend $ to get ready for winter (buy equipment, repairs....) maybe I wont have any customers next plow season. I will find out before I spend $ getting ready next fall and can plan accordingly.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

GV is close,
PrePay you have all of the money at the beginning of the season.
You have a profit even if it doesn't snow.
Remember , there is a cap.
So you can't loose your shirt.

With per push you might have money at the end of the season.
You will only have money if it snows enough for to make a profit.


----------



## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Our residential is pre pay before the season starts and I think we have serviced them 4 times so far. Not great for the homeowner, but our clientele is not concerned about a few hundred dollars and I'm sure they will all sign up next season. It's all about piece of mind and not having to write a check every month. Last year they were ahead, this year it's us, so far...........


----------



## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Balance is key !!!


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Superior L & L;2109093 said:


> Balance is key !!!


Balance definitley helps. Also you have to do the math, you must know your average number of pushes, salts, how much snow each push is and so on. It requires research and past records, Its more than I can plow this lot for $50. each time.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Mark Oomkes;2109067 said:


> Residential customers are seasonal, paid in full up front. They cancel, they might get a refund. Depends on how much snow we've had, I'm not going to be an arse.
> 
> Commercial customers don't cancel due to lack of snow. Never heard of it. If they wanted to, I wouldn't want them as a customer. Do they cancel fire insurance if they don't use it? Liability insurance?
> 
> ...


Mark,

As I said, I think I mis-spoke, and clouded the intention of my post. I see no issue relying on $$$ from seasonal contracts, I do as well. I wish I had more of them to be honest. What I meant to say, what I should of said, is not to be reliant on income that is reliant on snow. The way I look at it, you aren't relying on snow income, because the income from those accounts is not dependent on it snowing.

Sending you a PM.


----------



## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I can't imagine not relying on snow revenue as a business in a northern climate. 

Seasonal accounts mean it's just assured revenue no matter of snowfall. A 3-5 year average is what they're paying for, so you're still relying on snowfall to continue that average. 

However, if we didn't have seasonals, I'd buy weather insurance if I were relying on snow revenue. 

This is our first year of an almost even split of seasonal/per push, and in all honesty, if it continues at this percentage forever, I'll have no complaints. Seasonals cover all overhead, and allow for some profit with a season like this. Per push accounts add in profit and cover overages for seasonals on heavy snow years.


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

Superior L & L;2109042 said:


> All the people that say you cannot rely on snow money are typically the one truck guys, and they probably cannot do that. We on the other hand include snow income as a major part of our income regardless of how much or how little snow we get.
> We've invested over $70,000 in new snow equipment, not including the new trucks this equipment is mounted too this season.plus built a new salt bin, plus filled it.
> Snow is a great profit center regardless of if we get 30" or 70"


Well that isn't me. Still small scale three trucks. Plain and simple I'm not taking someone's money for potentially doing little to nothing. Remember I'm in southern Ohio and I'd be willing to bet the bank most of you talking about seasonals are getting plenty of snow where we can have years as low as 2-3 pushes at 2" trigger. You guys are out of your minds thinking ppl will sign up in my area. Not going to happen. Last year was a banner year for us in southern Ohio but it's odd to have snow totals for the year that high. I am the ONLY person in our local phone book and in 5 years have been called to do drives in only two storms. They were both high measure storms where ppl could simply not get out of the drives. Did right at 50 driveways after all commercial work on both storms. I have the commercial market locked up in my small town and have for a long time..residential a in my rural area aren't wanting service for 3-4" storms let alone two inches. In a farming community ppl fire up there vehicles and head out. So residential is a big ole thumbs down. Commercial in my area are still owned by small business owners that aren't stupid enough to sign a seasonal contract when they know the potential for little to no snow exists. Once again you guys in high volume snow areas kudos to you but seasonal will not work everywhere so don't think it will. Now for those of you thinking I'm all against seasonal, I have plenty of lawn care customers on set price per year divided by 12 months. Send me a check once a month. But we have a 25 week growth period where u are definetly going to work. It's not the same. You guys in Michigan and high snow volume areas, trust me I GET IT. I'd be trying seasonals also if you can bank that you will def get snow.


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## all ferris (Jan 6, 2005)

I'll take the blame for no snow....I bought a new plow truck and plow:waving:. We've only had one event so far this year. It was a bonus to me because I never plan for snow money. I plow because some of my commercial clients want one company to take care of all their outdoor needs. Our average snowfall is about 19" and we've only got 2 inches so far. Some years are better than others and if you are in business you better plan accordingly.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

This is our lowest snow total so far in like a 100 yrs, so now next year people will be scrambling to get a snow plow company for fear of the next big one.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

grandview;2109309 said:


> This is our lowest snow total so far in like a 100 yrs, so now next year people will be scrambling to get a snow plow company for fear of the next big one.


.....or everybody will want per push.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

dlcs;2109454 said:


> .....or everybody will want per push.


Not here...


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

dlcs;2109454 said:


> .....or everybody will want per push.


When you have the real possibility of 80 inches of snow overnight people are less willing to gamble.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2109067 said:


> Residential customers are seasonal, paid in full up front. They cancel, they might get a refund. Depends on how much snow we've had, I'm not going to be an arse.
> 
> Commercial customers don't cancel due to lack of snow. Never heard of it. If they wanted to, I wouldn't want them as a customer. Do they cancel fire insurance if they don't use it? Liability insurance?
> 
> ...


So you're saying you guys can't landscape for sh!t...


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

WIPensFan;2109533 said:


> So you're saying you guys can't landscape for sh!t...


I've seen Mark's stuff.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Herm Witte;2109550 said:


> I've seen Mark's stuff.


He's confirming it.

PensFan, did you see the brief video I made for you?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

JimMarshall;2109558 said:


> He's confirming it.
> 
> PensFan, did you see the brief video I made for you?


No........


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Herm Witte;2109550 said:


> I've seen Mark's stuff.


Did it look like Stevie Wonder did it......


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

BUFF;2109619 said:


> Did it look like Stevie Wonder did it......


Ha! Remember Mark, green side up.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

WIPensFan;2109625 said:


> Ha! Remember Mark, green side up.


Those aren't roots?


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

100% of my customers are seasonal, both on the commercial and residential side. I do provide a per push service, but I have a minimum of six plows, so it's basically a seasonal service. I am a snow only company and there is no way I would risk having a lean year, with no way of paying for my equipment. Seasonal has worked for me for 24 years and my customers appreciate the benefits of this package as well.

CGB


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

WIPensFan;2109625 said:


> Ha! Remember Mark, green side up.


And the skid steer stays out of the water


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## SnowMT (Jan 12, 2011)

Superior L & L;2109042 said:


> All the people that say you cannot rely on snow money are typically the one truck guys, and they probably cannot do that. We on the other hand include snow income as a major part of our income regardless of how much or how little snow we get.
> We've invested over $70,000 in new snow equipment, not including the new trucks this equipment is mounted too this season.plus built a new salt bin, plus filled it.
> Snow is a great profit center regardless of if we get 30" or 70"


Thumbs Up


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Well, based on a few lots this morning and over the weekend, it does appear that some contractors must be hurting pretty bad. 

I have pics of 2 CVS lots that were salted this morning. One had aboot 10' of runoff that might have been icy, the other had no runoff. Both had the entire lot salted. Temps around 28-30°, sun was oot upon sunrise and it is still poking through the cloud cover. 

NOTHING on the radar, I checked twice during the night. 

Unethical? 

Not to mention, not friendly for the environment. Keep this crap up and there will be licensure requirements for applying salt. 

How are they going to convince a NSP to pay for services like this?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

It snowed ,again, if it keeps this up it will dig into the profits....

:laughing:

Naw, just kidding, I can go out 20 more times and still be ahead of the game.

It just depends on how the one horse show operates.


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

Mark Oomkes;2113651 said:


> Well, based on a few lots this morning and over the weekend, it does appear that some contractors must be hurting pretty bad.
> 
> I have pics of 2 CVS lots that were salted this morning. One had aboot 10' of runoff that might have been icy, the other had no runoff. Both had the entire lot salted. Temps around 28-30°, sun was oot upon sunrise and it is still poking through the cloud cover.
> 
> ...


Could also be that the nsp is hurting and instructed the presalting. We do 3 cvs and I'm often amazed at how the nsp tries to find ways to get around their 1 salting in a calendar day rule.


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## STARSHIP (Dec 18, 2000)

Mark Oomkes;2113651 said:


> Well, based on a few lots this morning and over the weekend, it does appear that some contractors must be hurting pretty bad.
> 
> I have pics of 2 CVS lots that were salted this morning. One had aboot 10' of runoff that might have been icy, the other had no runoff. Both had the entire lot salted. Temps around 28-30°, sun was oot upon sunrise and it is still poking through the cloud cover.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, a select few that are greedy are going to ruin things for everyone.


----------



## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2113651 said:


> Well, based on a few lots this morning and over the weekend, it does appear that some contractors must be hurting pretty bad.
> 
> I have pics of 2 CVS lots that were salted this morning. One had aboot 10' of runoff that might have been icy, the other had no runoff. Both had the entire lot salted. Temps around 28-30°, sun was oot upon sunrise and it is still poking through the cloud cover.
> 
> ...


I have a CVS three blocks from my shop. Same deal. We have an ethical and moral responsibility to our clients and to our environment and salting dry parking lots with no ice or snow does not cut it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

A moral man wouldn't think of useing excess salt.

A ethical man would think of it, but not act on the eurge.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

SnoFarmer;2113829 said:


> A moral man wouldn't think of useing excess salt.
> 
> A ethical man would think of it, but not act on the eurge.


Your dealing with lawyers if anything happens,so salt away.


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Mark Oomkes;2113651 said:


> Well, based on a few lots this morning and over the weekend, it does appear that some contractors must be hurting pretty bad.
> 
> I have pics of 2 CVS lots that were salted this morning. One had aboot 10' of runoff that might have been icy, the other had no runoff. Both had the entire lot salted. Temps around 28-30°, sun was oot upon sunrise and it is still poking through the cloud cover.
> 
> ...


Between crap like this, and over application...... I'm on a snow plow discussion group on Facebook, one of the topics the other day was application rate. One of the guys said that his average salt application rate is 1 ton/acre! You're trying to melt stuff off right now, not keep it melted for the whole season!


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JimMarshall;2114107 said:


> Between crap like this, and over application...... I'm on a snow plow discussion group on Facebook, one of the topics the other day was application rate. One of the guys said that his average salt application rate is 1 ton/acre! You're trying to melt stuff off right now, not keep it melted for the whole season!


Average?

I'll admit, I have done it before........in the middle of January\February, non-stop lake effect at a couple inches per hour. But it isn't my average.


----------



## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

JimMarshall;2114107 said:


> Between crap like this, and over application...... I'm on a snow plow discussion group on Facebook, one of the topics the other day was application rate. One of the guys said that his average salt application rate is 1 ton/acre! You're trying to melt stuff off right now, not keep it melted for the whole season!


This is one thing that I use as a selling point of my service to potential new customers. A lot of them always want to know how much per pound, and I explain to them that I price my salting services per application. Therefore, it is in my best interest to use the smallest amount possible that achieves the desired results. I apply as much or as little as needed. I also always like to bring up that if their blacktop lot is white the day after with no snow, then something is wrong. They appreciate that.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

derekslawncare;2114129 said:


> This is one thing that I use as a selling point of my service to potential new customers. A lot of them always want to know how much per pound, and I explain to them that I price my salting services per application. Therefore, it is in my best interest to use the smallest amount possible that achieves the desired results. I apply as much or as little as needed. I also always like to bring up that if their blacktop lot is white the day after with no snow, then something is wrong. They appreciate that.


You ever been to Chicago in the winter?

Their roads\lots are white with salt until aboot July.


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Mark Oomkes;2114125 said:


> Average?
> 
> I'll admit, I have done it before........in the middle of January\February, non-stop lake effect at a couple inches per hour. But it isn't my average.


That's what I asked too. Yes, standard/average rate. I've done it too, under similar circumstances. And then there was that one oops moment where I put down 1.5 tons in 20,000 sqft. That lot was clear for days!

But standard application rate I'm not sure if I'm 1/4 that.


----------



## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;2114132 said:


> You ever been to Chicago in the winter?
> 
> Their roads\lots are white with salt until aboot July.


Never been to Chicago period, winter OR summer. My dad taught me at a young age with the old "if everyone else is jumping off a cliff in front of you, are you going to jump also?" Just because others are being stupid or doing the wrong thing doesn't mean I have to as well. (-: I understand in the above scenario, that during high snowfall rates or when you are getting freezing rain for hours on end and you are expecting some to wash off, you may put it down HEAVIER THAN NORMAL. But I don't think there is EVER a time that justifies 2000 lbs/acre. That is just irresponsible and harmful to the environment. I would like my grandkids to still have some kind of livable planet after I'm gone.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

derekslawncare;2114148 said:


> Never been to Chicago period, winter OR summer. My dad taught me at a young age with the old "if everyone else is jumping off a cliff in front of you, are you going to jump also?" Just because others are being stupid or doing the wrong thing doesn't mean I have to as well. (-: I understand in the above scenario, that during high snowfall rates or when you are getting freezing rain for hours on end and you are expecting some to wash off, you may put it down HEAVIER THAN NORMAL. But I don't think there is EVER a time that justifies 2000 lbs/acre. That is just irresponsible and harmful to the environment. I would like my grandkids to still have some kind of livable planet after I'm gone.


I can assure you, there are times that a ton\acre is justified and reasonable.

You need to experience lake effect and cold temps however.


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Mark Oomkes;2114163 said:


> I can assure you, there are times that a ton\acre is justified and reasonable.
> 
> You need to experience lake effect and cold temps however.


Areas of the country that don't get LES don't understand it's power. LOL


----------



## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

les
lake enhanced snow
or 
lake effect snow.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;2114177 said:


> les
> lake enhanced snow
> or
> lake effect snow.


Either one can suck. Lol


----------



## dstifel (Dec 27, 2012)

Would any of you seasonal guys be willing to share what your contracts look like. Don't care so much about price just how it's worded, if there is blizzard clauses, push limits, etc?? Have been slowly trying to switch to this route. 

Thanks!


----------



## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

JimMarshall;2114171 said:


> Areas of the country that don't get LES don't understand it's power. LOL


My average rate is about 650 lbs/acre. When I'm really putting it down, I'm probably around 900-1000/acre, but I'm also prewetting at the spinner when needed, so I'm able to use less and still get the results I need, with the results my customers want. I also don't have any "zero tolerance" (hospitals or other high risk) so that probably also makes a difference.


----------



## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;2114132 said:


> You ever been to Chicago in the winter?
> 
> Their roads\lots are white with salt until aboot July.


Looks like your driving down gravel roads with all the salt dust flying and that's two days after the salt was put down. I've see the salt residue so bad after the storm that you can't see the lines on the road.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

dstifel;2114183 said:


> Would any of you seasonal guys be willing to share what your contracts look like. Don't care so much about price just how it's worded, if there is blizzard clauses, push limits, etc?? Have been slowly trying to switch to this route.
> 
> Thanks!


PM me your email addy.

Yes

Yes


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

derekslawncare;2114186 said:


> My average rate is about 650 lbs/acre.


I'm 450# for an average, if it's end of the storm, sun's oot it's 300#.
Salt isn't heavily used oot west.


----------



## dstifel (Dec 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2114216 said:


> PM me your email addy.
> 
> Yes
> 
> Yes


Pm sent thank you very much.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

dstifel;2114236 said:


> Pm sent thank you very much.


Check your email.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

dstifel;2114236 said:


> Pm sent thank you very much.





Mark Oomkes;2114252 said:


> Check your email.


Keep it over there,this isn't a dating site.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

What's wrong with a little extra salt?


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

grandview;2114337 said:


> What's wrong with a little extra salt?


HA that's nothing. You can plow the salt off some lots here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

grandview;2114331 said:


> Keep it over there,this isn't a dating site.


Keep it on topic fella. Thumbs Up


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Plans are to expand geographically next season.


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

1olddogtwo;2114470 said:


> Plans are to expand geographically next season.


East side of the lake......


----------



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

grandview;2113831 said:


> Your dealing with lawyers if anything happens,so salt away.


Because they do not think with ethics or morals.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

BUFF;2114477 said:


> East side of the lake......


Perhaps to help fight the Red Army


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

1olddogtwo;2114470 said:


> Plans are to expand geographically next season.





BUFF;2114477 said:


> East side of the lake......





1olddogtwo;2114707 said:


> Perhaps to help fight the Red Army


Sweet!

I know of some accounts you can have............for a price.


----------



## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2114746 said:


> Sweet!
> 
> I know of some accounts you can have............for a price.


Just don't sell him my accounts.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Herm Witte;2114955 said:


> Just don't sell him my accounts.


I thought you were the lowball king of Michigan?


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## Snow tracker (Jan 31, 2014)

Always love to follow the rabbit trails these threads go down. Lol. 

Been plowing for 28 years. Started as a kid with one of the first four wheelers they made with a plow doing drives in my neighborhood. Didn't know what insurance was back then.  

Anyway quick books tells me that plowing has made up 34% of my total sales over the last 9 years. I would say that I count on 34%. We are all per push and I do believe it would be hard to sell seasonal in my area, but I think there are many benefits for both parties and would love to try. I am open to anyone willing to share info privately. 

I know I am selling reliability and dependability. I know the value I have in equipment standing ready at a moments notice to service my clients needs. There isn't a winter morning that goes by that I don't get up at 3 am and look outside to check for freak snow squal. ( well mostly nowadays I have to pee at 3 anyway) 

I averaged the few places that I treat as zero tolerance and over the last ten years average was 22-25 plows. Lowest was ten events and highest was 37 two winters ago. Would your seasonal price be based on 25 or 30 events in a case like this? 

I am currently ready to expand. Even on low snow years with per push jobs and lowballers all around there is money to be made for quality work.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

a little late here. i build swimming pools in the summer and money is pretty good. in the winter we plow snow, rite now i have 4 trucks, 1 loader, and 2 skid steers. last year i plowed a chain of 4 wendys, all 5-10 minutes apart and billed them 28k on per inch and per salt contracts. this year they called and said they wanted a seasonal price so they could know exactly what they where going to spend. i said, take 28k and divide it by how many months you want the service for and that will be your monthly payment. They signed and now its a great seasonal account. on the other hand we have many per inch accounts. This year on those accounts it has been a little difficult, i purchased a new cat 272d to replace my 20 year old bobcat 863. i was lucky enough to bill about 30k with the new cat during the pool season, because so far this winter i have only billed about 12k with it. another thing, we do not do landscaping, so it is very difficult to pick up new snow accounts because everyones landscaper does it. my father said "go where theres no grass". this worked perfectly, there is a large industrial area very close to us, we picked up 4 accounts all rite next to each other and practically did not bid against anyone else. i have always thought someone was getting robbed with seasonal contracts and i tended to stay away from them. when the wendys manager emailed me an ask me for a seasonal price that was about 35% cheaper over all from what i billed them last year i was infuriated. after i spoke with him and told him i would be providing 35% less service they kind of got the point. Never go cheap the get an account its really not worth it. and if you are having trouble in the winter because its not snowing, try to get into something else. our swimming pool retail store does absolutely nothing in the winter besides sell hot tubs. so we started selling (and get ready for this) darts.... who knew darts would generate about 50k from november to april....... Dart nuts. 

one more thing, we mainly use service vans for pools, however we do have some trucks for construction. NEVER buy equipment just for snow. terrible idea if you do so. if you cant work it year round, dont buy it.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

"NEVER buy equipment just for snow. terrible idea if you do so. if you cant work it year round, dont buy it."

Your opinion. Remember people from different markets read these posts. We have numerous pieces of snow only equipment and it works very well for us.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Herm Witte;2115121 said:


> "NEVER buy equipment just for snow. terrible idea if you do so. if you cant work it year round, dont buy it."
> 
> Your opinion. Remember people from different markets read these posts. We have numerous pieces of snow only equipment and it works very well for us.


Herm when you say equipment you're referring to tractors, skids and loaders, correct?


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

Herm Witte;2115121 said:


> "NEVER buy equipment just for snow. terrible idea if you do so. if you cant work it year round, dont buy it."
> 
> Your opinion. Remember people from different markets read these posts. We have numerous pieces of snow only equipment and it works very well for us.


Ha ha. LOL. We'd all either have to live in Antarctica or clear lots with shovels if this was the case because none of us would buy a plow or salt spreader. Kind of hard to be in the snow and ice management business without owning SOME snow only equipment.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I have a bunch of snow only equipment. Mainly tractors.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2115134 said:


> I have a bunch of snow only equipment. Mainly tractors.


You dont use them to till the land on your farm in the summer.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Damn it, we buy over 300 new cats for snow every year.... Damn it!


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

BUFF;2115129 said:


> Herm when you say equipment you're referring to tractors, skids and loaders, correct?


Correct and dedicated salt trucks. They sit all summer.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

What about stuff that sits all Winter ? 
I have 2 mowers
1 L3710 with 6' Brush Hog
1840 Case
Lawn Trailer 
Tractor Trailer
Dually Dodge 3500 for pulling Mowers.
More.........................
Most Of my snow stuff sits 8 months out of the Year. Snow Plow Trucks get used off and on but more off........


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Herm Witte;2115151 said:


> Correct and dedicated salt trucks. They sit all summer.


Thanks for clarifying that...... Rather than being a wise guy like some I figured plows/spreaders weren't included.



Mark Oomkes;2115134 said:


> I have a bunch of snow only equipment. Mainly tractors.


Well sporto we all you're royalty and a very special person........

That requires "special" concessions due to your ego.:waving:


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

BUFF;2115159 said:


> Thanks for clarifying that...... Rather than being a wise guy like some I figured plows/spreaders weren't included.
> 
> Well sporto we all you're royalty and a very special person........
> 
> That requires "special" concessions due to your ego.:waving:


Here I thought my phone screen whited out.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

1olddogtwo;2115167 said:


> Here I thought my phone screen whited out.


Just for you Pat.......Thumbs UpThumbs Up


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## Snow tracker (Jan 31, 2014)

A plow, a spreader or blower. Those are all attachments. I think in the right market with the right business plan you could easily heve snow only equipment.


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## dstifel (Dec 27, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2115134 said:


> I have a bunch of snow only equipment. Mainly tractors.


What size tractors do you use and why those over something like a skid, end loader etc.. Are they cheaper more effective? Not trying to be a smart a$$ just curious.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

dstifel;2115180 said:


> What size tractors do you use and why those over something like a skid, end loader etc.. Are they cheaper more effective? Not trying to be a smart a$$ just curious.


I don't know the machine size by number but they are about 5 feet long, 2 maybe 3 feet high.

And yes, I'm being a smart ass


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

It's almost impossible to not have some winter/summer only equipment. I agree were not talking plows/spreaders-mowers/whips etc. My mini ex is 3ft wide and weighs 1700lbs. It's slow as heck and too light to dig into frozen ground. There's no place for it in the winter, but I couldn't function without it in the summer. My backup plow truck does nothing in the summer, the plow never comes off. I run a 6mo ins policy on it. It's winter only, but I wouldn't plow without having it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

dstifel;2115180 said:


> What size tractors do you use and why those over something like a skid, end loader etc.. Are they cheaper more effective? Not trying to be a smart a$$ just curious.


I have a 1025R that is more or less a dedicated sidewalk machine. We did use the broom for spring cleanups and will probably be adding an aerator.

The rest are in the 100 HP range....give or take. 2 have inverted blowers for drives. 2 are dedicated plow tractors. I do have a brush hog that we do some field mowing with.

I have a skid, but we use it for landscaping as well, but in reality, it is mainly for snow.

Tractors are less expensive AND more cost effective. A 100 HP tractor with an 8611 and a 16' Ebling is at minimum 50% more productive than a truck setup the same. Inverted blowers don't work on skidsteers. Skidsteers don't go up the road at 23 MPH. They aren't as efficient for drives.

I sub loaders for my bigger lots.

For more information, start looking up Neige's\Paul Vanderzon's posts. I realize that area gets more snow and is colder, longer, but those guys up there have tons and tons of snow only equipment.


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## Broncslefty7 (Jul 14, 2014)

i guess its different markets then. i would never buy a Truck, skid, loader, that i couldnt work in the summer and the winter. i guess if i where more north and got a lot more snow it would make sense to buy just for the winter.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

I would love to go the tractor route for various reasons but the biggest problem is the price. Those 100hp tractors are expensive and I have absolutely no use for one when it isnt snowing. Its too bad because they are certainly built better than any truck out there but the reality is there's not much work for them here in the summer time unless you're a farmer


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

A 100hp tractor with a 12-18 snowing will easily do 3 times what a pickup will do. Maybe closer to 2 times in small snowfalls but anything over 4" the tractors really shine. They also don't depreciate like a pickup or require repairs like a pickup. I've said this many times but our 2004 John Deere 7220's were bought new for 75k. They are worth 50k on trade. We avg about $1000 per tractor for service and repairs. It's not very hard math to figure out just in that. Then add in you only need to find one competent operator instead of 2 or 3. Most of my tractors are snow only. I'm talking 100 pto hp tractors also.


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## pitbullplowings (Feb 14, 2016)

I do mostly residential properties, 99% of them are seasonal with a 2 inch trigger. only been out 2 or 3 times this year and so far everyone is happy and so is my bank account. I would say that of the 99% of the people about 85% have asked me if I have next years contracts ready yet, so really don't think I am going to loose many if any at all....course in the Chicago metro area one never knows what kind of snow we are going to get....as I type this at my local starbucks it is still snowing and about 1 1/2 inch on the ground. looking like I will be out tomorrow morning for a few hours. much better than last year though for me.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So aboot that going broke thing because of no snow................


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Did you get a little?


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## bel-nor (Dec 10, 2009)

We got a little here, however you had to be working early due rising temps. I think March may have a couple profitable days for the Midwest, especially up in Mi, Mn and Wi. Be safe out there.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;2123796 said:


> Did you get a little?


No, but it did snow.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;2123803 said:


> No, but it did snow.


We got more concrete is more like it.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2123786 said:


> So aboot that going broke thing because of no snow................


Just the opposite 60" now is starting to screw my seasonals...:realmad:


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2123786 said:


> So aboot that going broke thing because of no snow................


Nope: All is good on my end. We have gone out 5 times now, but after the last 4 heavy years, it would be nice to have a lite year. Either way, we plow snow, when it falls!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1;2123810 said:


> Just the opposite 60" now is starting to screw my seasonals...:realmad:


Bite me...............

Our seasonal total increased by 33% in 24 hours. Shows how sad this season has been.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

Really Bad - Last year was 1/2 of the year before , this year will be 1/3 unless it snows more. But the weather forecast is warm with no snow.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

Pushed 6 times so far this year, less than half of last year at this time. But logging has been SWEEEEEEEEEEET.

You have to have 2 or more sources of income, and they need to be unrelated. One more or less recession proof income, like plowing....one that may be economy dependant but makes way more money through the year.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

I've got you all beat. 5.5" so far for the season, 24" forecasted last November in the long range. I didn't even order salt for this winter because I still had about 1/2 of my 25 tons left from last winter when we only got about 14" for the whole season and 26" was forecasted for the season.


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## snowcrazy (Nov 18, 2010)

Mark Oomkes;2123803 said:


> No, but it did snow.


Lol I see what you did there.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

Buswell Forest;2124015 said:


> Pushed 6 times so far this year, less than half of last year at this time. But logging has been SWEEEEEEEEEEET.
> 
> You have to have 2 or more sources of income, and they need to be unrelated. One more or less recession proof income, like plowing....one that may be economy dependant but makes way more money through the year.


Last year I pushed 6 times..... The first week of January


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## abbe (Sep 8, 2009)

Last year we had 80". All in February basically. This year we have maybe 20". And it's sunny and 60 degrees today. The fat lady has sung for the north east.


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