# S.A.M. parts can be dangerous



## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

Just a warning--I run a thoroughly restored and meticulously maintained Fisher belt-drive system, and when changing the inline filter on the low-pressure return line from the valve body to the pump I used a S.A.M. filter. Big mistake that almost cost me my whole rig. 

The filter does not allow sufficient flow, so that when I lowered the blade (collapsing the lift cylinder) the return line became over pressurized and blew the filter right off the hose (it was tightly clamped). Figuring the first filter was defective, I put another identical filter in. Same thing. Happened 4 separate times, dumping ATF all over the place. The last time some fluid hit the hot exhaust manifold and flashed, causing a serious fire in the engine compartment. Fortunately I was able to put it out quickly.

I put a Fisher filter in after that. Wrote a letter to the CEO of the company in Ohio that owns S.A.M., warning him to look into the problem and to reimburse me for the expense and hassle that resulted from the fire (minor damage to the engine that I was able to repair myself).

So be warned--S.A.M. apparently has some serious quality control issues, use their parts at your own risk!


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks for the tip.


Can you post pics of your rig ? Early 70's dodge, I assume ?Thumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs Up


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SAM\Buyers build junk?


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Im going to say 90s Ford 

Learned my lesson a few years back. Bought a simple u bolt that goes on the A
frame to hold the chain for a Fisher . Went to put it on and barely tightened it and the nut stripped out .:angry:


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

'73 Dodge W100. I'll see if I can post some pictures when I get a minute.


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## ppkgmsy (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks for the heads-up.


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

Dogplow asked for a pic of the rig:









Here's the letter I wrote to the CEO of S.A.M.'s parent company. Be curious to see how (or if) he responds.



> January 13, 2016
> 
> Mark Saltzman, President
> Buyers Products Company
> ...


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## 98Chevy2500 (Nov 27, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;2096388 said:


> SAM\Buyers build junk?


No kidding....


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## Maine_Train (Dec 16, 2009)

Good letter. Good job itemizing your expenses from it, too.
I hope it gets some serious attention from them.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

best of luck with the letter. and good for others to know.

you aren't the first person to use aftermarket parts and have a problem. it happens everyday. you may be reimbursed for the cost of the filters (even that is kind of a long shot), but you will not get squat for any other collateral damage, your time, and most certainly not your fuel to drive to the parts store. while you were at it, you should have asked for the cost of the pizza to be reimbursed!

honestly i think all you get it out of this is a lesson to stick with those same oem filters that have served you well all these years.


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## rjigto4oje (Oct 27, 2010)

I agree with the op there parts are junk I've had 3 selenoids that were junk this year, the last one lasted 5 min then caused the pump to run all the time.


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

linckeil;2097226 said:


> while you were at it, you should have asked for the cost of the pizza to be reimbursed!
> .


He did. $36.78


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

linckeil;2097226 said:


> you may be reimbursed for the cost of the filters (even that is kind of a long shot), but you will not get squat for any other collateral damage, your time, and most certainly not your fuel to drive to the parts store. while you were at it, you should have asked for the cost of the pizza to be reimbursed!


Damn right the pizza's in there! Yeah, it's a long shot, and I have no expectations, but if this guy has any integrity he just might respond. If the company is selling a lot of junk--and I gather they are--then he probably doesn't give a sh&% and I won't hear a thing.

But it's still worth telling them exactly what you think.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

ha! i missed the pizza cost! damn - a $36 pizza? what the heck was on it??????

keep us posted.


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## Snow Commandor (Jan 30, 2011)

linckeil;2097278 said:


> ha! i missed the pizza cost! damn - a $36 pizza? what the heck was on it??????
> 
> keep us posted.


That must've been lobster pizza! Lol


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

linckeil;2097278 said:


> ha! i missed the pizza cost! damn - a $36 pizza? what the heck was on it??????


2 large flatbread pizzas from a local joint. We gave up on Domino's years ago, would rather pay a little extra for quality. Kind of like what I should've done with the damn filter!

I expect if I hear back from Mark it will this week. I'll post his reply if I get one.

The retailer was great, they reimbursed me immediately.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

Good luck with this. Let us know how it turns out. Glad you and the truck survived.


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

Update: guy from Buyers Products called tonight (not Saltzman), apologized, said "we're going to take care of you," asked the make, year, and model of the truck (??), and asked me to ship the filters back to him for testing. I told him I'd be glad to (on their dime), gave him a few more details (like the fact that as soon as I put the OEM filter in, the problem went away), and asked if they had any response to my request for reimbursement. He said he wanted to look at the filters first and "take care of everything all at once." I took that to mean they want to leave themselves an out ("filters tested fine, must've been your truck"), but I give them credit for 1) getting back to me promptly and 2) showing genuine concern to fix the problem before the same thing happens to someone else.

So I'll ship the filters back tomorrow and we'll see what happens. Will keep you posted.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Megunticook;2098688 said:


> Update: guy from Buyers Products called tonight (not Saltzman), apologized, said "we're going to take care of you," asked the make, year, and model of the truck (??), and asked me to ship the filters back to him for testing. I told him I'd be glad to (on their dime), gave him a few more details (like the fact that as soon as I put the OEM filter in, the problem went away), and asked if they had any response to my request for reimbursement. He said he wanted to look at the filters first and "take care of everything all at once." I took that to mean they want to leave themselves an out ("filters tested fine, must've been your truck"), but I give them credit for 1) getting back to me promptly and 2) showing genuine concern to fix the problem before the same thing happens to someone else.
> 
> So I'll ship the filters back tomorrow and we'll see what happens. Will keep you posted.


More than I have received from anyone at Meyer\Swenson.


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

You're not going to believe this, but. . .

The guy from Buyers Products says they're sending a check. What's odd, though, is first he said he tested the filters and concluded that they were fine and the problem must be the hoses. Here's what he said:



> On both filters we put 5 GPM into the inlet, both filters functioned properly (no failures). I believe the failures were actually caused by the condition of the hose.


And I replied:



> I wonder if 5gpm creates the same pressure created by the life cylinder instantly retracting when the plow blade is dropped. That creates a sudden push of fluid through the filter.
> 
> Also, are you using the same fluid at the same temperature? The viscosity is important to consider.
> 
> ...


He had no answer to this but said he was sending a check anyway.
I replied:



> Can you reproduce the actual conditions in your lab, using the same fluid viscosity/temperature, and pushing fluid through the filter with the same sudden force created by a 700lb. plow blade forcing the lift cylinder to quickly retract? If you can reproduce those conditions, and the filter performs as intended, then I will gladly concede the issue and apologize for the hassle. I don't mean to be unreasonable, it just seemed very evident that the filter was the point of failure.


He then asked specs. on the lift cylinder. I am really curious what the results of an accurate test would be. Dollars to donuts he'll get a massive pressure spike because the filter won't flow the fluid fast enough.

But I have to hand it to Buyers Products, not only did they bother to answer my letter, they showed genuine concern for safety and gave me the benefit of the doubt. That's A1 customer service, something you don't see much these days. It's also smart business as it builds customer loyalty. Kudos to them.


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## Boomer123 (Dec 18, 2011)

You got a lot more response than I ever thought you would get. Glad to see they have an open conversation with you.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I would have had to cut open one of there's, and a OEM to see the difference. It's amazing they got back to you that fast.


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## sota (Jan 31, 2011)

I'll be impressed if the check comes in remotely close to your asking figure.


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

sota;2106990 said:


> I'll be impressed if the check comes in remotely close to your asking figure.


That's what he indicated--said it would take a couple weeks to process. I think what's more valuable than the $ is the respect they've shown to their customers--again, that really comes down to smart business practices. After the check comes I will call the CEO and personally thank him.

It may be that they just appreciate getting honest feedback from their customers presented in a calm, reasonable manner rather than ranting and demanding. But still, in this day and age you don't often see customer service like that.

I tip my hat to Buyers Products.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Very impressive.

Apparently I finally got to the right person at Meyer, looks like something should be happening with my POS spreader.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2107064 said:


> Very impressive.
> 
> Apparently I finally got to the right person at Meyer, looks like something should be happening with my POS spreader.


What type of spreader are you referencing ? What happened ? IDR.....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Dogplow Dodge;2107073 said:


> What type of spreader are you referencing ? What happened ? IDR.....


http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=165978


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## john r (Jan 3, 2001)

Maybe its a Fram filter you got from SAM


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Why, you have had defective Fram filters?


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## dheavychevy38 (Nov 19, 2008)

The question is how many microns is the factory filter verus there filter ?? Have had the same thing happen on skid steers at my work with napa filters they filter to good and cause a reatriction when there needa to be flow and bam them blow off..


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

Exactly. Either Buyers Products had the wrong specs., or their Chinese supplier messed up on the filter element. That's my best guess. The real question is how much effort is Buyers Products going to make checking on this and taking steps to fix it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Was/ is your fluid to thick/frozen?
Don't their filters have a by-pass?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I've tried NAPA hydraulic filters for my Dingo, blew every one oot. 

Supposedly the same specs. Put an OEM on it, and never a problem.


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

SnoFarmer;2109965 said:


> Was/ is your fluid to thick/frozen?
> Don't their filters have a by-pass?


The fluid was exactly what Fisher recommends for the under-the-hood belt drives, Dexron ATF (I use Valvoline). Wasn't all that cold, maybe 30.

I'm not aware of any bypass--it's just a simple inline canister filter.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Megunticook;2110001 said:


> The fluid was exactly what Fisher recommends for the under-the-hood belt drives, Dexron ATF (I use Valvoline). Wasn't all that cold, maybe 30.
> 
> I'm not aware of any bypass--it's just a simple inline canister filter.


Some filters allow the fluid to bypass if the internal pressures are too high. This is inside the filter, and you cannot see it externally. It would be in the specifications for the filter, if they're even available.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2109975 said:


> I've tried NAPA hydraulic filters for my Dingo, blew every one oot.
> 
> Supposedly the same specs. Put an OEM on it, and never a problem.


Interesting, all my tractors and loaders run Napa gold filters(wix), I've never had issues.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

beanz27;2110774 said:


> Interesting, all my tractors and loaders run Napa gold filters(wix), I've never had issues.


That's the only one we've had issues with so far. Other than the 6.0 filters.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Megunticook;2097515 said:


> 2 large flatbread pizzas from a local joint. We gave up on Domino's years ago, would rather pay a little extra for quality. Kind of like what I should've done with the damn filter!
> 
> Buyers products are the Dominos pizza of plow parts.


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

A check arrived today from Buyers Products. They were true to their word. Remarkable.

I'm going to phone the CEO on Monday to personally thank him and affirm his decision to do the right thing by the customer. Wish more business leaders were like that.

I still would like to hear the final results of their lab tests on the filter. The real win would be if they confirm the issue and make a correction on the product, and going forward make every effort to put quality first.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I gotta day I'm impressed. Post the filter number. Next time I do an order I might get one and cut it open to see what's in it. Did they cover the pizza?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Megunticook;2112040 said:


> A check arrived today from Buyers Products. They were true to their word. Remarkable.
> 
> I'm going to phone the CEO on Monday to personally thank him and affirm his decision to do the right thing by the customer. Wish more business leaders were like that.
> 
> I still would like to hear the final results of their lab tests on the filter. The real win would be if they confirm the issue and make a correction on the product, and going forward make every effort to put quality first.


I might just have to forward this thread on to the powers that be at Meyers.


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

Randall Ave;2112069 said:


> I gotta day I'm impressed. Post the filter number. Next time I do an order I might get one and cut it open to see what's in it. Did they cover the pizza?


They covered all the expenses I incurred, including the pizza.

Part #1306427.

Still getting resistance and denial from Meyers, Mark? Have you gone all the way up the chain of command?


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

Glad to see they stepped up and made it right. Nice to see some companies still take care of their customers.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Megunticook;2112145 said:


> They covered all the expenses I incurred, including the pizza.
> 
> Part #1306427.
> 
> Still getting resistance and denial from Meyers, Mark? Have you gone all the way up the chain of command?


On the 28th I was told they were working on it. I asked for an update today and haven't heard anything.


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## allagashpm (Sep 29, 2012)

See a thread like this goes a long way for a business. A thread complaining about being blown off like the Russo power one in commercial plowing section does too, but thw wrong way. 
Buyers sent you a check and that small amount could have saved them thousands in loss of future sales. 
I am glad to see they did the right thing. Another thing to keep in mind is how you approached it. You handled it professionally and calmly instead of flipping out. They were more willing to deal with someone thinking and acting rationally.
Good for you and good for them. Hopefully Meyers steps up for you mark


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I've used a lot of Buyers products. Never had much of any issues. At least they stood up for the consumer on this one.


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

I called Mark Saltzman, the CEO I wrote to originally, to thank him for the check, affirm his great customer service attitude, and encourage him to be vigilant on product quality issues. Got his voicemail and left a brief message asking for a call back. Never heard anything, guess he's pretty busy. Understandable.

At the end of the day I still am hesitant to buy any more of those filters until I hear that they've corrected the issue. Am wondering if they actually followed through on proper testing or just decided to move on.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Megunticook;2096364 said:


> Just a warning--I run a thoroughly restored and meticulously maintained Fisher belt-drive system, and when changing the inline filter on the low-pressure return line from the valve body to the pump I used a S.A.M. filter. Big mistake that almost cost me my whole rig.


Something doesn't sound quite right here. Where is the reservoir in this picture? Shouldn't the reservoir be between the return line and the pump? The reservoir should be vented.

The cycle should be like this;

reservoir --> filter --> pump --> valves/cylinders --> reservoir.

Note that in this arrangement, the pump is protected from crud that comes in through the reservoir, AND, the filter will NEVER see any attempt to flow more oil through it than the rate of the actual hydraulic pump, i.e., the "drop surge" will never hit it.

Return flow from the valve block to the reservoir should be *completely* unrestricted. And while the OEM filter may indeed support a better flow rate than the aftermarket filter, there should NEVER be any opportunity for the filter to become pressurized in this manner.

Another thing that I'm curious about, is whether or not there is any bypass valve in these filters. Bypass valve is a part that is inside the filter itself. Engine oil filters have a bypass valve that will allow oil to keep flowing even if the filter medium gets completely plugged. I.e., it is better for dirty oil to flow through the system than NO oil. Is it possible that the OEM filter has a bypass valve, but the aftermarket one doesn't? What would happen if the OEM filter got plugged, for example, with ice? (not unusual)


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

jasonv;2118911 said:


> Where is the reservoir in this picture? Shouldn't the reservoir be between the return line and the pump? The reservoir should be vented.


The reservoir is integrated into the pump--it's all one unit. The filter is located in the low-pressure return line running from the valve body to the reservoir/pump. As far as the reservoir being vented, I'm not 100% sure of that. When you remove the cap on the reservoir, you definitely hear (and feel) the hiss of air, so there's typically a pressure between the reservoir and the atmosphere outside. A NAPA parts guy told me the cap has a vent in it, but I don't see it myself and I'm always a little skeptical of the guys at parts counters.

I believe I read in one of the Fisher manuals that this is by design, otherwise you would frequently have moisture from outside air entering the system. Plus they always say to open the reservoir cap slowly. I actually know a veteran Fisher engineer (the factory is two towns away from me), I should ask him that question.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Megunticook;2119388 said:


> The reservoir is integrated into the pump--it's all one unit. The filter is located in the low-pressure return line running from the valve body to the reservoir/pump. As far as the reservoir being vented, I'm not 100% sure of that. When you remove the cap on the reservoir, you definitely hear (and feel) the hiss of air, so there's typically a pressure between the reservoir and the atmosphere outside. A NAPA parts guy told me the cap has a vent in it, but I don't see it myself and I'm always a little skeptical of the guys at parts counters.
> 
> I believe I read in one of the Fisher manuals that this is by design, otherwise you would frequently have moisture from outside air entering the system. Plus they always say to open the reservoir cap slowly. I actually know a veteran Fisher engineer (the factory is two towns away from me), I should ask him that question.


Integrated into the pump certainly throws a wrench into it.

I will say that the reservoir must definitely be vented. Not necessarily *easily* vented, but still vented, otherwise the reservoir would crush when lifting the plow, or explode when dropping it. Its probably got a ball-and-spring valve on it.

Now I know its a moot point given that the OEM filter does the job, but for the sake of intellectual completion, a couple of workarounds would be a high pressure relief bypass valve around the filter, or a flow limiter between the valve block and the filter to make sure it doesn't get that drop surge. I would lean towards the bypass, since it directly addresses pressure, which is the source of the problem.

I would almost bet that the OEM filter has a built in bypass valve, and the aftermarket filter either doesn't, or is just too junk to work.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

DD product traditionally have been pressurize to 5 psi before the vent/breather worked.

Not saying that is the case here but food for thought


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## Megunticook (Dec 1, 2006)

From an engineer at Fisher:


> Any venting occurs through the rivet in the cap. The pressure differential are generally low.


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## bigbadbrad (Mar 1, 2009)

jasonv;2118911 said:


> Something doesn't sound quite right here. Where is the reservoir in this picture? Shouldn't the reservoir be between the return line and the pump? The reservoir should be vented.
> 
> The cycle should be like this;
> 
> ...


You are 100% wrong. On a hydraulic system filter is always in the return. If it would be before the pump, when the filter gets restricted it would cause the pump to cavitate and quickly burn up the pump.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

bigbadbrad;2124650 said:


> You are 100% wrong. On a hydraulic system filter is always in the return. If it would be before the pump, when the filter gets restricted it would cause the pump to cavitate and quickly burn up the pump.


Uh oh......lol. jasonv is wrong aboot 98% of the time.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

As mulch as I hate to say it,
It can be both ways.

On a lot of hydrostatic equipment, 
There is a filter on the draw side of the pump.
(Between the resivor and the pump.)

On these machines you will have a hydraulic fluid Vacume gauge.
A low reading is in the green range, then yellow as the Vac on the pump increases, then Red, to mulch vac on the pump. 
This will lead to cavitation ....and or a collapsed filter, time to idel her down,
Still not in the yellow or green? Shut her down, tow it in.

Pumps and hydro motors cost to mulch, not to catch the trash before it enters the syestem,


Then,

Fallow this logic train.
If the filter was between the revisor and the pump, with a Vacuum on it.
It would never have been blown off of the syestem.
If it was it would be collapsed.
So it had to be after the pump some place along the line. 
Then it can blow off.

Just Say'en


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## pipelayer (Oct 6, 2013)

rjigto4oje;2097237 said:


> I agree with the op there parts are junk I've had 3 selenoids that were junk this year, the last one lasted 5 min then caused the pump to run all the time.


exact same thing happened to me. 3 solenoids later i put a fisher in and problem solved.


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