# was I fair?



## norb5150 (Oct 3, 2015)

I submitted a very fair price bid for a per push lot last year for this season. My price was 150 per push 2" trigger up to 6" 75 per hour after 6". The lot takes me roughly 2 hours up to the 6" mark and one truck. Anything over 6" I have another truck come in to assist with windrows and etc.
The business only uses me for emergencies this year. They did not sign the contract due to them buying a new truck and plow. Their truck broke down during the "snowmagedan" event we seen here over the christmas holidays.

Christmas day there was 24" on the ground by time they called. I charged $500 over the phone as I was in North Carolina and did not know the exact extent of the work was required and sent my other guy to plow it. He expressed to me that he called another truck and it took the 2 of them 5 hours to plow the lot. On the 26th I was back in Town and went up to plow the lot. It took me and my other guy 6 hours and I billed $1000 on the thoughts that anyone else would have went up looked at it and said we need a front loader and two skid steers to even try plowing this.

So for 2 days I billed a total of $1500 and I do not feel like I ripped the place off for many reasons. 
What are your thoughts and opinions?
I hope the link works for the lot I don't know how to copy an image of it.

https://earth.google.com/web/@42.07...UVAIRC5z-ClAlTAKhAxMDAgUGVubmJyaWFyIERyGAEgAQ


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I can't pull it up, but for an "emergency service" I think you should be charging a premium. To want you to go in there AFTER 2' or more has fallen, because they can't handle it is a premium service.

I would have still made them sign a contract though, even if it's only for on call like you are. That way it would help take some of the liability off you, you'd have prices in writing, and they would "have" to pay the agreed upon price.

I don't understand your second billing though. 150 + (75 × 6) = 600, not 1,000. To me, it's your fault for not only charging $75/hr, when you need 2 pieces of equipment on site.


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## TKLAWN (Jan 20, 2008)

Seems more than fair!!


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## norb5150 (Oct 3, 2015)

JMHConstruction said:


> I can't pull it up, but for an "emergency service" I think you should be charging a premium. To want you to go in there AFTER 2' or more has fallen, because they can't handle it is a premium service.
> 
> I would have still made them sign a contract though, even if it's only for on call like you are. That way it would help take some of the liability off you, you'd have prices in writing, and they would "have" to pay the agreed upon price.
> 
> I don't understand your second billing though. 150 + (75 × 6) = 600, not 1,000. To me, it's your fault for not only charging $75/hr, when you need 2 pieces of equipment on site.


google earth 100 pennbriar drive erie pa. Thats the lot. 
To explain why I billed 1,000 the second night $150 per push is way cheap here in my opinion but I submitted that bid based on wanting that lot to aquire the surrounding businesses and also because I can efficiently plow that lot pretty quick under normal snow conditions. To say there is a very huge problem with cut throating here is an understatement. 90% of the trucks don't even have insurance for starters. I billed 1,000 for the second night for several reasons. 6 hours was based off 2 trucks doing the work so $75 per hour per truck was a starting price point (1,200). Had they accepted my contract when I submitted it they would have been billed roughly $750 each night so basically I charged them as if the contract was signed. Yes I understand what you mean about having a contract signed to even do anything and I have stressed this to them. Unfortunately they refuse to do so. I did explain when I submitted my invoice to them that I will no longer work on their property if they refuse to sign a contract. I feel the importance of the contract is more so for insurance purposes than being paid mainly because my contract pretty much "cma" if something were to go wrong or something gets damaged etc. I'm sure you get that part. 
We had a total of 154" of snow fall for that storm and that doesn't include the drifting and road plowing that needed cleaned up.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I think even your regular pricing is too low. You can cover your nut, but it's hard to profit very much @ 75.00 per hour.


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## norb5150 (Oct 3, 2015)

JustJeff said:


> I think even your regular pricing is too low. You can cover your nut, but it's hard to profit very much @ 75.00 per hour.


It is but the cut throating here is rambunctious to say the least. So much so, now other people on this forum from my area will bid it at 65 regardless of how much accumulation has occurred and will even go clean the thoroughfares and entries at no additional cost after the city county and state plows come by.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I'd park my trucks if that were the case, and let the other low-ballers run each other out of business.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

More than fair, in my opinion, you should have charged more.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

JustJeff said:


> I'd park my trucks if that were the case, and let the other low-ballers run each other out of business.


Jeff is correct. You do not need to participate in a reverse auction. You do not have to play Mr Nice Guy in trying to secure that property and surrounding areas. Sounds like you give 1st rate service. Charge accordingly. Let those other guys race to the bottom with their pricing. You don't need to be at the bottom.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

norb5150 said:


> google earth 100 pennbriar drive erie pa. Thats the lot.
> To explain why I billed 1,000 the second night $150 per push is way cheap here in my opinion but I submitted that bid based on wanting that lot to aquire the surrounding businesses and also because I can efficiently plow that lot pretty quick under normal snow conditions. To say there is a very huge problem with cut throating here is an understatement. 90% of the trucks don't even have insurance for starters. I billed 1,000 for the second night for several reasons. 6 hours was based off 2 trucks doing the work so $75 per hour per truck was a starting price point (1,200). Had they accepted my contract when I submitted it they would have been billed roughly $750 each night so basically I charged them as if the contract was signed. Yes I understand what you mean about having a contract signed to even do anything and I have stressed this to them. Unfortunately they refuse to do so. I did explain when I submitted my invoice to them that I will no longer work on their property if they refuse to sign a contract. I feel the importance of the contract is more so for insurance purposes than being paid mainly because my contract pretty much "cma" if something were to go wrong or something gets damaged etc. I'm sure you get that part.
> We had a total of 154" of snow fall for that storm and that doesn't include the drifting and road plowing that needed cleaned up.


I understand, and agree with the prices. But from a customer point of view, if you told me 75/hr, I would expect to pay that no matter how many people you had on site (unless you told them 75 an hour per person).

As far as pricing goes, I don't feel you're taking advantage or anything, that's a lot of snow. If you charged $150 per push, and had a normal trigger, you would be well beyond your prices that you've charged.

If your so cut throat, maybe ask Michael to remove the addresses, and just post a screen shot of the location. I wouldn't want anyone stealing my business because of an online forum, that's not why we're here.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Sorry, I agree with your billing, 2 guys/equipement working 1 hr is 2 hours billing. Its 2 hours of work...


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## wildbillsnow (Feb 28, 2013)

That’s how you bill.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

norb5150 said:


> I submitted a very fair price bid for a per push lot last year for this season. My price was 150 per push 2" trigger up to 6" 75 per hour after 6". The lot takes me roughly 2 hours up to the 6" mark and one truck. Anything over 6" I have another truck come in to assist with windrows and etc.
> The business only uses me for emergencies this year. They did not sign the contract due to them buying a new truck and plow. Their truck broke down during the "snowmagedan" event we seen here over the christmas holidays.
> 
> Christmas day there was 24" on the ground by time they called. I charged $500 over the phone as I was in North Carolina and did not know the exact extent of the work was required and sent my other guy to plow it. He expressed to me that he called another truck and it took the 2 of them 5 hours to plow the lot. On the 26th I was back in Town and went up to plow the lot. It took me and my other guy 6 hours and I billed $1000 on the thoughts that anyone else would have went up looked at it and said we need a front loader and two skid steers to even try plowing this.
> ...


Well around here that would be roughly:
2-3 $350
4-6 $450
7-9 $600
10-12 $750
and every 1-3 inches over 12 $200

So 24 inches would have been $1,550.00

Just plowing.

So your on the money for 24 inches

If you got more snow on the 26th you should have charged for that also.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

I think I would have a lot more than that...What would you expect to pay if someone did that for you ?


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## Mike_C (Feb 9, 2014)

Way more than fair I would've been triple that even if it was an existing account, not an emergency service


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## AllHands (Dec 16, 2015)

I cant believe your wondering if you were fair brother, you gave him a deal and a half. This guy contracted you last year, but this year thought he could buy a beater truck and handle it himself and DIDNT sign any contract with you? Thats what they call gambling brother, and he lost. If hes calling you AFTER its already snowing for an emergency, that means time away from your other loyal customers who signed contracts. you should charge a premium for that. For me it would be whatever the lot cost's to plow, plus 25%/30%. I understand your area is cutthroat with pricing, but that guy is getting a STEAL. If im looking at the right lot, its almost 2.5 acres plowed surface, and your only getting $150 up to 6"??? id be out of business at $75 an hour rates. id be double to two thirds more EASILY, and i get it. Best of luck to you brother, im sorry your dealing with that crap up there, but you are a saint in my opinion! You have been WAYYYYY more then fair, and shouldnt even give it a second thought


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

norb5150 said:


> It is but the cut throating here is rambunctious to say the least. So much so, now other people on this forum from my area will bid it at 65 regardless of how much accumulation has occurred and will even go clean the thoroughfares and entries at no additional cost after the city county and state plows come by.


Yeah, and then they will pad the time to offset the cheaper rate, and end up costing them more.


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## norb5150 (Oct 3, 2015)

AllHands said:


> I cant believe your wondering if you were fair brother, you gave him a deal and a half. This guy contracted you last year, but this year thought he could buy a beater truck and handle it himself and DIDNT sign any contract with you? Thats what they call gambling brother, and he lost. If hes calling you AFTER its already snowing for an emergency, that means time away from your other loyal customers who signed contracts. you should charge a premium for that. For me it would be whatever the lot cost's to plow, plus 25%/30%. I understand your area is cutthroat with pricing, but that guy is getting a STEAL. If im looking at the right lot, its almost 2.5 acres plowed surface, and your only getting $150 up to 6"??? id be out of business at $75 an hour rates. id be double to two thirds more EASILY, and i get it. Best of luck to you brother, im sorry your dealing with that crap up there, but you are a saint in my opinion! You have been WAYYYYY more then fair, and shouldnt even give it a second thought


Your looking at the right lot. And now to add to the misery they haven't stroked a check yet which I invoiced on Jan 1 with 15 day Balance due :{


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## AllHands (Dec 16, 2015)

So now you hit him with another bill with your Net 15 rate. Does your bill properly display your net terms if payment is not recieved? If it does i would hit them with a higher bill now. I have taken emergency jobs to help out a non customer or even former customers and i always make sure we both understand the pricing before i send a truck. I have never run into the problem you are having and im sorry you have to deal with it. Their failure to prepare is not your necessity for action, but you helped them out and now they arent paying. Thats the ****ty part of this business, and im glad i havent had to deal with that yet. good luck!


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

It all depends on the size of that lot 

One mans “I need two trucks for an hour” is another mans 45 minutes.

You could run two trucks with straight blades and play tiddly winks chasing eachothers windrows for hours,
Where as a guy with the right truck and experience is in an out.
So truck x hours x rate is mystery math really.

So when it comes to paying “by the hour” 
No one can really say what something is worth without being there and seeing the conditions/equipment/operator.


In the end the job is only worth what it’s worth. 


However if you’re hired and paid on an hourly rate only.
Then it doesn’t matter if there’s two inches or twenty. 
It took x time 
That’s what you get paid,
You don’t get paid more “per hour” because there was more snow, you get more “hours” because there was more snow. 
If that was the arrangement it doesn’t change because the snow is deeper,
Unless the sub contract has a previous arrangement as well.
Two trucks x 5 hours x 75 = $750, you short changed your self the first day. 
Two trucks 6 hours x 75 = $900 the second day , you’re a little long at $1000

Total for 75 per truck per hour should have been $1650, as per previous existing agreement from years prior with lead contractor.
You charged $1500
You short changed yourself 
He needs to pay up.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

22 trucks hours for 100,000 square feet and two feet does seem like a really long time to complete 
But, like I said... there’s a lot of variables with truck and operator. 

But putting it into perspective maybe a loader for $150 an hour would have gotten it done in 10 hours? 
It would have still been $1500
So everything is relative


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## AllHands (Dec 16, 2015)

Well said


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## usedplowman (Nov 11, 2003)

Contract isn't signed so the pricing is according to the conditions and time per truck it took to get it done. Remember on emergency service you should make them pay on the spot after you finish or you won't do it. Also living where you do you need to bid jobs on 6 levels with price increases that help you make $ and let the customer know exactly where they stand on a snow Armageddon. I hope you get your money. Give us an update.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

To call me in for he first time on Xmas day would’ve had a surcharge.


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## norb5150 (Oct 3, 2015)

Been a While....! Updates: Got Paid for the work I think in Late March can't remember now. I will most likely avoid plowing that particular lot this year but Its looking like my good work on that lot may have paid off because I was able to submit a bid at two close by lots and that is extremely good news for me. Now I have to try for the rest


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## Brettny (Jul 12, 2017)

No one likes the emergency only and late paying customers. I would drop that one too.


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