# Snow Dragon Melter



## JohnnyRoyale

We are considering purchasing a Snow Dragon Melter-does anyone here have any experience with this monster. Videos and literature look good, but I'm curious to know true production rates, problems, operating costs etc.


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## Mark Oomkes

Now why wouldn't you believe what the inventor of snow as to say about his product?


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## tuney443

Saw their literature at Con Expo yesterday at Hartford,Ct. No dragon,just the sales poop.Something to maybe consider--some places around me in NY forbid dump sites for snow.So where you are going to melt the snow---is the runoff allowable? We live in crazy times.Might want to check.


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## Liquid

Detroit metro airport tried one, once........... They found it to be cost prohibitive.. Cheaper to have it hauled away under someone elses responsibility rather than have a state employee stand next to it and several other operators packing it....


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## Liquid

but, they deal with allot of snow, ALLOT of snow................ I guess it depends on your situation.


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## Italiano67

Did you see the amount of fuel they can burn in an hour? Start adding that up and trucking snow looks reasonable.


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## JohnnyRoyale

I saw the fuel consumption numbers and, in a scenario like tonite (where we are hauling off site), I calculated haulage and tipping fees as such: 20 triaxles at $75 per hour x 1.5 hours round trip = $2250 +$50 dump fee x 20 loads adds another $1000.00 to the equation, for a total of approx $3000-$3250 per 20 loads hauled. We have approx 200 loads to move from this one particular site and were booked for the week as of now. At 300-400 litres of fuel per hour to operate, it seems like a small price to pay (in comparison). Question is, can I get that type of production out of the SND 900 unit? And. whats written in literature is often sugar coated-I want to hear an unbiased real opinion from a contractor.


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## JohnnyRoyale

Response to post #2

Im not denying what John Allin claims, I just want to hear what contractors using this equipment have to say-as literature is oftentimes sugarcoated to make numbers work. On paper everything is possible-give me real time numbers.


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## JohnnyRoyale

My apologies for my replies being all over the place-I'm new to this and a bit tired.


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## Mark Oomkes

Do a search, I believe someone out of NJ had one and was advertising for work here earlier in the year. Maybe they have what you're looking for.


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## QuadPlower

I think they have their place. I would consider it for parking garage roof top work. Melt the snow up their instead of hauling it down and away.

Not everyone can get the kinds of trucks that are needed to haul away snow. I think if your charged enough it could be worth it. I also think it could be subed out during the year to help pay for itself.

Effecient or not, I think they would be cool to watch.


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## Italiano67

When you mentioned your truck rates and the amount of time on a round trip it makes sense. Here they usually find a close dump site in a field etc. Plus quad axles aound here with 18 yard loads only get at best 65.00 per hour.


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## sunriseturf

My thought on them is the amount of fuel they burn is obscene. 1 gallon of diesel per cubic yard of snow melt? Please. Let the sun melt it off. (Solar energy at it's best) On some of those big units they have to have the fuel truck(3600 gallon tankers) park next ot these things to keep them going.


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## speedy

It seems to me that snow melters can only be justified by Government entities. The best example of which is likely airports with their stringent security rules. If snow needs to be hauled off-site ans the trucks need to be inspected coming and going, and if the truck traffic is going to hamper operations, then the cost may be justified.

Some cities have mobile units that are self propelled and move along picking up a windrow and the melt spills out and runs down the gutter into the storm drains. This is likely only a reasonable option in places where the climate is very mild, say Vancouver, maybe Seattle and a few others. Maybe in a few select downtown areas it may be an option as well.

The parking garage rooftop is a unique application for it too. But you'd think a chute down to a waiting truck, like you see when they renovate a high-rise would be a more viable option....Shouldn't the structure's designers think about this stuff beforehand?


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## SnoDawgs

sunriseturf;512961 said:


> My thought on them is the amount of fuel they burn is obscene. 1 gallon of diesel per cubic yard of snow melt? Please. Let the sun melt it off. (Solar energy at it's best) On some of those big units they have to have the fuel truck(3600 gallon tankers) park next ot these things to keep them going.


 Where are you finding these numbers? We are looking at one of these smaller SND900 units and worst case scenario we can't generate those numbers.


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## RLM

Suposedly the Snow Dragons are more efficent than the other units. Do a search on John Allin & SMG (the previous company he ran). I don't know what to believe. I do know he did alot of good for the industry & alot of bad, don't know more of which. I know it takes BIG [email protected]#Ls to go a symposium after you screwed or stiffed so many of those there. He does it.


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## JohnnyRoyale

Neige has one, any answers to my questions Paul? Thanks for reviving this thread BTW-saved me from starting it again.


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## Neige

Italiano67;512223 said:


> When you mentioned your truck rates and the amount of time on a round trip it makes sense. Here they usually find a close dump site in a field etc. Plus quad axles aound here with 18 yard loads only get at best 65.00 per hour.


Thats just it, more and more its illegal just to open a dump site anywhere. I believe the city of Ottawa found 120 of them, and fined the owners. Here in Quebec the property management companies are responsible where their snow gets dumped. If the contractor dumps illegally, the property management company can be held responsible.



SnoDawgs;590622 said:


> Where are you finding these numbers? We are looking at one of these smaller SND900 units and worst case scenario we can't generate those numbers.


The numbers I am running with is around $300.00 an hour for home heating oil.



JohnnyRoyale;511795 said:


> I saw the fuel consumption numbers and, in a scenario like tonite (where we are hauling off site), I calculated haulage and tipping fees as such: 20 triaxles at $75 per hour x 1.5 hours round trip = $2250 +$50 dump fee x 20 loads adds another $1000.00 to the equation, for a total of approx $3000-$3250 per 20 loads hauled. We have approx 200 loads to move from this one particular site and were booked for the week as of now. At 300-400 litres of fuel per hour to operate, it seems like a small price to pay (in comparison). Question is, can I get that type of production out of the SND 900 unit? And. whats written in literature is often sugar coated-I want to hear an unbiased real opinion from a contractor.


Those are roughly the same numbers I come up with. I figured it will melt 12 trucks of 20 cubic yards an hour. Those are their numbers, I have yet to try it out myself. I assume they are fair numbers, based on freshly pushed or stacked snow. 
So just your dumping fees equal $600.00 an hour of melted snow. Now bring in the trucks, say it takes 1 hour round trip, that 12 trucks an hour at $75.00 that adds another $900.00 to the equation.So we are talking $1500.00 to haul snow, and thats if everything goes well. Like between 10PM and 5AM now add traffic or an accident and your numbers start to really climb. In Montreal last winter it often took more than 2 hrs for a load. Now the numbers go crazy, where as the melter, the cost is constant. You melt 240 cubic yards an hour, any time, no traffic concerns. Lastly you do not have to rely on someone else to get the job done.



JohnnyRoyale;590706 said:


> Neige has one, any answers to my questions Paul? Thanks for reviving this thread BTW-saved me from starting it again.


I will definitely keep you up to date. If you have more questions give me a call at 514 608 4675
Paul


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;590706 said:


> Neige has one, any answers to my questions Paul? Thanks for reviving this thread BTW-saved me from starting it again.


 Hi Neige or Paul, I suspect your municipality has a discharge to storm by-law with numbers around the 15mg per litre total allowable suspended solids. How does one achieve compliance to this spec without a complex filtration unit?? Do municipalities even care? I certainly wouldn't want to run into difficulties once I have one.
Thanks


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## Neige

SnoDawgs;590800 said:


> Hi Neige or Paul, I suspect your municipality has a discharge to storm by-law with numbers around the 15mg per litre total allowable suspended solids. How does one achieve compliance to this spec without a complex filtration unit?? Do municipalities even care? I certainly wouldn't want to run into difficulties once I have one.
> Thanks


Thats the million dollar question. I will have one soon, we will do water tests as soon as snow is available. Snow Dragon and Twin Equipment, will do everything in their power to make sure everything passes the environmental standards in our area. Its in their best interests that municipalities ok this form of snow management. The rest is wait and see. I'm confident that it will fall in the parameters of the environment


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## Lynden-Jeff

Neige;590864 said:


> Thats the million dollar question. I will have one soon, we will do water tests as soon as snow is available. Snow Dragon and Twin Equipment, will do everything in their power to make sure everything passes the environmental standards in our area. Its in their best interests that municipalities ok this form of snow management. The rest is wait and see. I'm confident that it will fall in the parameters of the environment


Totally OT but on your website your english button doesn't work, if thats what the ENG is in the top right.

Cheers


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## Neige

I know, hopefully by the end of next week, the English part will up and running. Will keep everyone posted when it is.


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## RLM

With regard to my previous post. I was trying to be as un biases as possible sorry if it offended any one.


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## JohnnyRoyale

Thanks Paul-I never figured the traffic scenario. Have you had any problems with the unit?


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## SnoDawgs

Neige;590864 said:


> Thats the million dollar question. I will have one soon, we will do water tests as soon as snow is available. Snow Dragon and Twin Equipment, will do everything in their power to make sure everything passes the environmental standards in our area. Its in their best interests that municipalities ok this form of snow management. The rest is wait and see. I'm confident that it will fall in the parameters of the environment


 The stumbling blocks will likely appear when you start to promote the equipment and SOMEONE will start asking "How do you dispose of any tramp oils collected from the melt?" "Do you have a waste generators certificate?" "You're introducing a process in between the naturally occurring melt of snow....are you then classified as a point source discharge?" "So, what will happen when you discharge to a dormant storm system?" And the questions could go on and on.
As much as we can envision the "good" of melting vs hauling, there's always someone who'll rain on our parade. It will be interesting to see the comparison of a pre-melt analysis vs post-melt. I'd imagine your supplier should be able to provide these comparisons. There is no question in my mind that the process will remove the majority of the debris and solids, however, some folks don't see that this way.
Maybe I'm just more concerned about covering the proverbial buttocks than taking a chance. 
Cheers!


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## JohnnyRoyale

I understand and agree with the issues and stumbling blocks we may face, AFTER making a 250Kk investment. Airports have been using them forever, and they are now becoming quite popular amongst municipalities around here too. The City of Mississauga ran a pilot project last year with few of them being pulled around with tractors and self loaders. Maybe they have the answers. My assumtion is-what's good for the goose, is good for the gander-but then again, the municipalities (or any level of government for that matter) typically dance to their own tune most of the time.


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;591160 said:


> I understand and agree with the issues and stumbling blocks we may face, AFTER making a 250Kk investment. Airports have been using them forever, and they are now becoming quite popular amongst municipalities around here too. The City of Mississauga ran a pilot project last year with few of them being pulled around with tractors and self loaders. Maybe they have the answers. My assumtion is-what's good for the goose, is good for the gander-but then again, the municipalities (or any level of government for that matter) typically dance to their own tune most of the time.


10-4 
I think what typically happens is that the municipalities have unrestricted power to act at their own discretion, however they are still held accountable by the MOE. Unfortunately, at the contractor level we have to deal with the local municipalities and in some cases, and I don't mean to sound harsh, there is an undetectable level of common sense.
IMHO


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## Martin Tirado

JohnnyRoyale, there are SIMA members that own Snow Dragon's that I can get you in touch with. One of which has responded to this thread. If you want to get in touch with other contractors who have one, call me at 414-375-1940.
- Martin


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## Neige

JohnnyRoyale;591108 said:


> Thanks Paul-I never figured the traffic scenario. Have you had any problems with the unit?


Hey Johnny, I have not yet used my machine, I only get delivery this October. Take Martin up on his offer, I am sure there are SIMA members who can answer your questions better than me. I can also give you the number of someone who has run 4 machines, the last few years.


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## SnoDawgs

Martin Tirado;591290 said:


> JohnnyRoyale, there are SIMA members that own Snow Dragon's that I can get you in touch with. One of which has responded to this thread. If you want to get in touch with other contractors who have one, call me at 414-375-1940.
> - Martin


Hi Martin
Would you mind if I gave you a call? I too would like to speak with other contractors who own one.To quote Neige in his response to an earlier post about discharge concerns, _"Thats the million dollar question."_ Although it may not be a million dollar question, at up to $50,000.00 a pop for a single non-compliance incident, it can add up pretty quick. Naturally this is worst case scenario and I'm being a little anal about compliance, but.... there are those out there who are equally as anal about compliance who work on the other side of the fence. Perhaps some contractors are in a position where they can absorb these costs. I am not.


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## musclecarboy

Lynden-Jeff;590883 said:


> Totally OT but on your website your english button doesn't work, if thats what the ENG is in the top right.
> 
> Cheers


C'mon, as a Canadian you should be able to read it! tymusic

haha no worries, most people I know can't even say bonjour


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## JohnnyRoyale

SnoDawg-where are you located?


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## SnoDawgs

I'm in the KW Tri-City area..About an hour southwest of Toronto and maybe 2 hours southwest of you.


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## SnoDawgs

SnoDawgs;590622 said:


> I'm in the KW Tri-City area..About an hour southwest of Toronto and maybe 2 hours southwest of you.


..........


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## BH37

snodawgs ...did you get any names /#'s of melter owners yet?


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## SnoDawgs

BH37;591966 said:


> snodawgs ...did you get any names /#'s of melter owners yet?


I've spoken with a number of people who own units manufactured by a different company but nobody seems to have actually worked with a Snow Dragon yet.


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## BH37

SnoDawgs;591987 said:


> I've spoken with a number of people who own units manufactured by a different company but nobody seems to have actually worked with a Snow Dragon yet.


Are you getting any comfier(sp?) with the info you have been givin on their website?(snowdragon)


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## Neige

If you PM me I will give you the number of someone who runs 4 of them, for several years now.


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## Lynden-Jeff

musclecarboy;591577 said:


> C'mon, as a Canadian you should be able to read it! tymusic
> 
> haha no worries, most people I know can't even say bonjour


lol I skipped french in school. I can still speak a little.


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## SnoDawgs

Neige;592106 said:


> If you PM me I will give you the number of someone who runs 4 of them, for several years now.


et vous remercier chaleureusement ce qui concerne. Hope that makes sense


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## SnoDawgs

BH37;592015 said:


> Are you getting any comfier(sp?) with the info you have been givin on their website?(snowdragon)


I've run some numbers and feel Snow Dragon's load numbers may be slightly inflated. Add to that the fact that they generated their load/melt rates from the Principals of Heat Transfer handbook..... I'll touch base with my btu guy today and see what he has to say.. But for the most part I am comfortable with the units abilities to perform...just that dang discharge has me concerned.


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## SnoDawgs

I might also mention that I live in a municipality where if you so much as fart in the municipal pool you'll be doing paperwork for the remainder of the day....


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## BH37

SnoDawgs;592416 said:


> I might also mention that I live in a municipality where if you so much as fart in the municipal pool you'll be doing paperwork for the remainder of the day....


Nice job on the name pic!tymusic


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## Martin Tirado

SnoDawgs, yes feel free to call or email me directly. The only reason I wouldn't list a few owners on here is for privacy reasons on their behalf. 
- Martin


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## SnoDawgs

Martin Tirado;593322 said:


> SnoDawgs, yes feel free to call or email me directly. The only reason I wouldn't list a few owners on here is for privacy reasons on their behalf.
> - Martin


Thanks Martin, I appreciate that. Will speak with you soon.


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## Neige

So Snodawgs, find out anytthing new, you can share with us.


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## Peterbilt

What do these thing cost? Not that I can justify one, but lets say the smallest one.

J.


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## SnoDawgs

Peterbilt;594545 said:


> What do these thing cost? Not that I can justify one, but lets say the smallest one.
> 
> J.


Slightly less than it cost to put a man on the moon.....but the cool thing about them is that they likely melt snow....but so do some women I know


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## Peterbilt

lol

but how much$$$$$$$


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## SnoDawgs

Peterbilt;594588 said:


> lol
> 
> but how much$$$$$$$


Slightly more than the house that I had to give the last person I didn't like..... starts around 250k...anything useable may depend on your locale .


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## SnoDawgs

Neige;594328 said:


> So Snodawgs, find out anytthing new, you can share with us.


Today I had the opportunity to explore a large TreCan unit. 
The TReCan has a great system for removing the debris and sediment that sinks to the bottom. TreCan discharges their burner exhaust into the water.
The Dragon has a more robust and innovative heat exchanger design.
Dragon has a better filtration method......
But....,neither are running within most north american discharge to storm specs.


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## Peterbilt

250K? Holy crap. 

J.


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## SnoDawgs

Peterbilt;594610 said:


> 250K? Holy crap.
> 
> J.


I can help you with financing if you like


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## JohnnyRoyale

SnoDawgs;594603 said:


> But....,neither are running within most north american discharge to storm specs.


How far are they both off, and what do the dicharge to storm specs entail? Would the discharge affect any ecosystems estalished in Storm Water Management (Retention) Ponds now common in newer areas? Is the issue the flow rates?- or the contaminants?


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## grandview

Not the greatest picture ,saw it at SIMA didn't get any info on it. It did look like it cost a lot.


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## Neige

SnoDawgs;594597 said:


> Slightly more than the house that I had to give the last person I didn't like..... starts around 250k...anything useable may depend on your locale .


The price I got is $214,000.00 US, even with our exchange rates, maybe 230K Canadian.



JohnnyRoyale;594651 said:


> How far are they both off, and what do the dicharge to storm specs entail? Would the discharge affect any ecosystems estalished in Storm Water Management (Retention) Ponds now common in newer areas? Is the issue the flow rates?- or the contaminants?


Johnny it seems more about the contaminants, then flow rates. I am sure that it is far less, when you melt snow right after a storm, then the snow that slowly melts from the left over piles that have been stacked. Every day, stacked piles absorb contaminates, when you see those white piles slowly melting, and turning black, any one ever test that run off.

I know I will be watched very carefully, to see how this works out. For this year I will have an edge over, those who haul. Time will tell. :

Thanks GV for the pic. For those of you in the Toronto area, go to AMACO Equipment 905.670.3440 they are near the airport. They had one in their yard last month, I think they still have it. I am sure Jeff will be happy to show it to you.


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## Neige

grandview;594661 said:


> Not the greatest picture ,saw it at SIMA didn't get any info on it. It did look like it cost a lot.


Hey GV That pic is pretty blurry, could it be all that free beer at the symposium


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;594651 said:


> How far are they both off, and what do the dicharge to storm specs entail? Would the discharge affect any ecosystems estalished in Storm Water Management (Retention) Ponds now common in newer areas? Is the issue the flow rates?- or the contaminants?


The Snow dragons filtration method if far superior to the TreCan unit. The problem with discharge is that the allowable suspended particulate levels in most municipalities by-laws are 15mg/litre This will be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve without some method of filtration. I know I don't want to be the first one to discharge a murky liquid into any Storm Water Management basin or pond, without having some solid support from the municipality. Someone needs to lobby the municipalities to have them support us and say "It's ok fellas. Just go melt some snow"


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## JohnnyRoyale

SnoDawgs;594682 said:


> Someone needs to lobby the municipalities to have them support us and say "It's ok fellas. Just go melt some snow"


Frig, they're passing bylaws to prevent chlorinated pool water being pumped into sewers, I can see this getting real ugly if/when David Suzuki catches wind.


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoDawgs;594682 said:


> The Snow dragons filtration method if far superior to the TreCan unit. The problem with discharge is that the allowable suspended particulate levels in most municipalities by-laws are 15mg/litre This will be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve without some method of filtration. I know I don't want to be the first one to discharge a murky liquid into any Storm Water Management basin or pond, without having some solid support from the municipality. Someone needs to lobby the municipalities to have them support us and say "It's ok fellas. Just go melt some snow"


Would this be like the fine folks in Mass. that allow snow to be stacked on the beach but not dumped in the ocean?


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## RLM

SnoDawgs;594582 said:


> Slightly less than it cost to put a man on the moon.....but the cool thing about them is that they likely melt snow....but so do some women I know


Funny I guess once your married they change & can make ice.


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## JohnnyRoyale

RLM;594698 said:


> Funny I guess once your married they change & can make ice.


No sh*&^!!LOL


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## Luther

SnoDawgs;594682 said:


> The Snow dragons filtration method if far superior to the TreCan unit. The problem with discharge is that the allowable suspended particulate levels in most municipalities by-laws are 15mg/litre This will be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve without some method of filtration. I know I don't want to be the first one to discharge a murky liquid into any Storm Water Management basin or pond, without having some solid support from the municipality. Someone needs to lobby the municipalities to have them support us and say "It's ok fellas. Just go melt some snow"


Pardon me, but won't the contaminants in the snow piles eventually make their way into the storms through their natural occurrence of melting? Maybe these units contaminate the snow further through it's process?!?


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## RLM

You could try to argue that when they fine you. As with most things in government I think common sense if out the window.


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## Luther

RLM;594736 said:


> You could try to argue that when they fine you. As with most things in government I think common sense if out the window.


Of course.......isn't this normally the case?


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;594687 said:


> Frig, they're passing bylaws to prevent chlorinated pool water being pumped into sewers, I can see this getting real ugly if/when David Suzuki catches wind.


I can see the placards now "!!!STOP THE MELTERS!!! They're killing a genus of protozoa that moves by means of pseudopods and disturbs the goose feces which provides essential vitamins and minerals to our drinking water!!"
HAHAHA I kill me....maybe it's time to up my meds 
Maybe Snow Dragon should give David a call and see if he'll endorse their product. Now _*THAT*_ would be a good marketing strategy.


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## Mark Oomkes

JohnnyRoyale;594687 said:


> Frig, they're passing bylaws to prevent chlorinated pool water being pumped into sewers, I can see this getting real ugly if/when David Suzuki catches wind.


LMAO, yet they treat municipal water with chlorine to kill the bacteria and algae.

Why oh why do we elect and allow these idiots to run our countries??????? :realmad:


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## Neige

JohnnyRoyale;594687 said:


> Frig, they're passing bylaws to prevent chlorinated pool water being pumped into sewers, I can see this getting real ugly if/when David Suzuki catches wind.


Thanks Johnny, David probable has some kind of email alert every time his name pops up.
I can see him working on a story as we speak. But then again, he may see thats its better than what we have been doing all along. A lot of energy gets wasted hauling snow. Then there are the dumps that are re stacking the dumped snow, not to mention the high concentration of contaminants at these sites.



TCLA;594734 said:


> Pardon me, but won't the contaminants in the snow piles eventually make their way into the storms through their natural occurrence of melting? Maybe these units contaminate the snow further through it's process?!?


The answer is yes to part one and no to part two. The TreCan model will add contaminates because its fire to water, some nasty stuff gets produced. It also uses way more fuel to melt the same quantities of snow as Snow Dragon


TCLA;594737 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Of course.......isn't this normally the case?


Yep, until they become desperate, then suddenly its a great idea. Its up to Snow Dragon to get the municipalities to ok the process.


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## JohnnyRoyale

To reach David Suzuki's office: contact his Executive Assistant Elois Yaxley via fax: (604) 730-9672


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## JohnnyRoyale

Thread's fixed-SnoDawg broke it! LOL


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## Neige

And I thought it was your fault Johnny, after you mentioned David Suzuki, the problems began.
SnoDawgs last post got deleted, and I never got to read Marks post.


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;596267 said:


> Thread's fixed-SnoDawg broke it! LOL


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## Mark Oomkes

Neige;596280 said:


> SnoDawgs last post got deleted, and I never got to read Marks post.


I think it was deleted because I didn't type it in Chinese. The censors didn't approve of it being in English.  

Just for grins, think I'll try French next time.


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## Neige

Une grand merci Marc, 

FONDOIRS DE NEIGE SNOW DRAGON®

Le Snow Dragon® lance une rÉvolution dans le mode d’enlÈvement de la neige. Ce matÉriel commercial de fusion de neige (brevets en instance) mettra fin À l’empilement de neige, mÊme dans les conditions les plus rudes.

Ce produit, qui intÈgre les tous derniers progrÈs dans la technique des Échangeurs thermiques, prÉsente une solution Économiquement viable comparativement au processus trÈs coÛteux et nuisible pour l’environnement du roulage et du dÉplacement physiques de la neige. Maintenant en pleine production, les fondoirs de neige Snow Dragon® reprÉsentent une option rentable pour les entreprises de dÉneigement aussi bien que pour les responsables de l’organisation matÉrielle, les municipalitÉs et les exploitations aÉroportuaires.payup


LOL


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## SnoDawgs

Located a Snow Dragon sleeping in it's lair in Southwestern Ontario. I'll be meeting with the fellow on Monday to get some inside info. Any questions I should ask that we've not already talked about??


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## JohnnyRoyale

Production rates
True operating costs
Discharge issues
Any breakdowns
Any particular problems he's had
His hourly rate
Anything he wished he would have known BEFORE he made the investment


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## JohnnyRoyale

Where's the unit anyways?


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;596454 said:


> Where's the unit anyways?


I am sorry Sir, that is classified information that I am not at liberty to disclose...  I don't want to ruin the apparent shroud of secrecy of the Snow Dragon. But I will ask for permission to publisize it's where abouts. He seems like a nice enough fella....


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;596454 said:


> Where's the unit anyways?


He suspects true production rates of 8 to 10 tandems per hour.
His hourly rate he'd prefer not to disclose
Discharge issues are a concern, but is working to resolve those with additional filtration
The unit is in Guelph,Ontario Canada


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## JohnnyRoyale

What about operating costs? And any issues he had with the unit.


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;598417 said:


> What about operating costs? And any issues he had with the unit.


It seems to be a well designed unit. He's had it for about a month. Operating costs are unknown, but Neige's 300$/hr in fuel doesn't seem to be too far off the mark.


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## JohnnyRoyale

I thought Paul hasn't received his yet-maybe I'm wrong. So in other words, the guy you met hasnt used his unit either.


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;598428 said:


> I thought Paul hasn't received his yet-maybe I'm wrong. So in other words, the guy you met hasnt used his unit either.


Exactly. I also heard there is one for delivery up in your neck of the woods.


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## JohnnyRoyale

SnoDawgs;598431 said:


> Exactly. I also heard there is one for delivery up in your neck of the woods.


Apparantly a few guys have ordered them-but no-one has any hard factual answers from experience, which is kinda scary IMO. Now if we get a repeat of last winter, and they work as well as they claim on paper-these guys are gonna be heros and come out smelling like roses, if not-well...that's another story and there may be a few deals to be had.


----------



## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;598434 said:


> Apparantly a few guys have ordered them-but no-one has any hard factual answers from experience, which is kinda scary IMO. Now if we get a repeat of last winter, and they work as well as they claim on paper-these guys are gonna be heros and come out smelling like roses, if not-well...that's another story and there may be a few deals to be had.


Not sure there is a section in the local Auto Trader for hardly used Snow Dragons. (yet) Make one helluva cobbed corn boiler. _"Once you have the Dragon to 210 degrees you add a bucket load of salt and a bucket load of sugar. Once you've brought the Dragon to full boil, you put in 4 yards of shucked corn. Let it boil for 5 minutes, and then turn off the Dragon. Let it steep for another 7 to 10."_ I think I'll call Martha Stewart. 
I think the promoted 14-16 loads per hour is high. How is it physically possible to even load that much snow into the Dragon? I say that only because if you watch the SND900 video and the melt timing,… it just doesn't add up. As Neige made mention earlier, the real cost savings to the customer are for those who have 60 minute turns on their dump trucks. For any potential customer with a 45 minute turn with their dumps, the Snow Dragon can compete, but you'll need to flog the associated benefits of melting vs hauling. And, naturally, in order to change any entrenched bureaucracy, you have to sell the leadership on new ideas. You kinda have to take them on an intellectual journey. The temptation in any large org is to give orders and impose their will through rank. As a dragon owner (or potential owner) you have to walk them through the logic that persuades us that melting may be, in fact, a good idea. Trouble is…… we have no facts.


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## JohnnyRoyale

In the right applications, ie: downtown core, where real estate is a premium it makes alot of sense. We all know the costs associated with the loading and hauling alternative.

Now, if and when some mechanical genius fine tunes the idea of cost effective permanent melting pad in a parking lots snow pile area, the need for a Dragon would become obsolete. (Just another brainstorm of mine). LOL


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;598531 said:


> In the right applications, ie: downtown core, where real estate is a premium it makes alot of sense. We all know the costs associated with the loading and hauling alternative.
> 
> Now, if and when some mechanical genius fine tunes the idea of cost effective permanent melting pad in a parking lots snow pile area, the need for a Dragon would become obsolete. (Just another brainstorm of mine). LOL


 So long as your total suspended solids are less than 15/mg per litre, you should be ok  You need a polymer fibre that gets excited when exposed to sunlight and generates heat. Sprinkle some of that on before sunrise and voila


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## SnoDawgs

I went to a BYOS party this morning. Brought in 25 yards of snow and watched the dragon slay it in about 10 minutes. Very impressive! wesport


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## Neige

SnoDawgs;599200 said:


> I went to a BYOS party this morning. Brought in 25 yards of snow and watched the dragon slay it in about 10 minutes. Very impressive! wesport


I agree watching it work is very impressive. As for their video it sucks. At the rate they are loading it, what 2 yards a minuet, and not even full buckets. That would be 120 cubic yards, halve of what they say it can do. The machine looks like it could handle double what they show, so I'm hoping that 240 works. Thanks Sno for you info, you didn't happen to take a video.tymusic


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## SnoDawgs

Neige;599470 said:


> I agree watching it work is very impressive. As for their video it sucks. At the rate they are loading it, what 2 yards a minuet, and not even full buckets. That would be 120 cubic yards, halve of what they say it can do. The machine looks like it could handle double what they show, so I'm hoping that 240 works. Thanks Sno for you info, you didn't happen to take a video.tymusic


Hi Neige.
After watching the Dragon videos, I figured the Dragon would run 120 cubic metres (156 cubic yards) comfortably. This was proven today. The snow that was gathered was denser than the typical few day old snow bank. A lighter fluff will no doubt increase your load rate. IF it could handle 240, you'd need two loaders....I think

And yes I did video and take some stills of the Dragon. I will post them as soon as I figure out how.

PS I'm typically a worst case scenario type guy. Sorry... it can't be helped, or at least 4 out of 5 doctors tell me so.


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## Neige

Hey its best to be as informed as possible, and question everything they tell you. There adds were talking about 6 cubic yard truck loads. I would be laughed out of my province with those figures. I think a tri-axle with extra hauling boards can handle 20 cubic yards, when loaded by bucket. You could probably get 8 more in, if you blow it.
Where did they find the snow at this time of year.
Paul


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## SnoDawgs

Neige;599859 said:


> Hey its best to be as informed as possible, and question everything they tell you. There adds were talking about 6 cubic yard truck loads. I would be laughed out of my province with those figures. I think a tri-axle with extra hauling boards can handle 20 cubic yards, when loaded by bucket. You could probably get 8 more in, if you blow it.
> Where did they find the snow at this time of year.
> Paul


Check your local skating arena.


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## Neige

Thats what I thought. So you melted ice shavings, thats more than 10 to 1 snow. impressive.


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## JohnnyRoyale

Did you ask about the suspended solids issue?


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;600066 said:


> Did you ask about the suspended solids issue?


No, we didn't discuss the suspended solids issue, but I will be working closely with this company on these issues.
And I must say, two thumbs up!


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## JohnnyRoyale

Which company, the one that bought it or SnowDragon?


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;601309 said:


> Which company, the one that bought it or SnowDragon?


Turf Plus, but I'll give John Allin a hand if he asks politely.....tymusic


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## JohnnyRoyale

I take it you have knowledge in that particular field.


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## Neige

I heard Amaco equipment, is working on some type of sock filter to hook on the discharge pipes.


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;601878 said:


> I take it you have knowledge in that particular field.


I've dabbled in a number of fields. Heat exchange technology, risk management and environmental management to name a few, and always with an open mind for others. Snow business is relatively new to me.


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## SnoDawgs

Neige;601906 said:


> I heard Amaco equipment, is working on some type of sock filter to hook on the discharge pipes.


Not sure what Amaco is up to, but sock filters can go either way on you....there are a billion different sizes and types...and a LOT depends on your discharge volume.....and, naturally, what it is you're trying to filter out.


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## Neige

SnoDawgs;602403 said:


> Not sure what Amaco is up to, but sock filters can go either way on you....there are a billion different sizes and types...and a LOT depends on your discharge volume.....and, naturally, what it is you're trying to filter out.


The discharge rate they are giving is 605 liters/min. Its my understanding our goal is total suspended solids less than 15/mg per litre.


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## SnoDawgs

Neige;602443 said:


> The discharge rate they are giving is 605 liters/min. Its my understanding our goal is total suspended solids less than 15/mg per litre.


 Any feed back from AMACO??? Any updates or anything news worthy in the Dragon world?


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## JohnnyRoyale

From the Trecan website FAQ

Melt water can be discharged to either system, depending on the customer, and local regulations. The water leaving the Snowmelter is usually cleaner than the snow entering the Snowmelter. During the melting process, the heavy debris in the melting snow falls to the bottom of the melting tank where the debris will need to be cleaned out periodically and taken to the dump. Floating solids (larger than the discharge screening) would also be captured in the melting tank. *Any snow contaminated with salt, oil, glycol etc would pass through the Snowmelter. A catch basin with an oil and particulate interceptor to accept melt water would be prudent if oil contamination is an issue.* Glycol contamination is not normally a problem except at airports. For example, Pearson International Airport's Central De-Icing Facility directs all the melt water through their real-time glycol concentration monitoring system. Melt water with a glycol concentration over a regulated threshold is stored in large underground storage tanks - for later reprocessing. Melt water below this threshold is discharged to the municipal sewer system.


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## SnoDawgs

JohnnyRoyale;627541 said:


> From the Trecan website FAQ
> 
> Melt water can be discharged to either system, .......QUOTE]
> 
> The Dragon has the Trecan unit beat with their weir type system, although you may spend more time cleaning the screens. I spoke with a fellow who has a Trecan and he actually uses a shopping cart as a filter at the discharge to catch the larger debris that escapes from the Trecan. It has no real filtration at all. At least the unit I was looking at....


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## SnoDawgs

Am I the only one having difficulties getting answers out of AMACO?


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## Neige

No one has anymore answers. Its a wait and see what happens now. Anyone who has bought one will be the Ginny pig, to see what munis and the environment people think.
I get mine next week. As soon as there is fresh snow, we will melt it and run some water tests. I will go from there. I can guarantee I wont be using a shopping cart as a filter.
Amico and Twin are both new distributers this year, all they can tell us is what Snow Dragon already has told us.

This is from a state Department of Public Health and Environment.
Sept.27,2006 I am not naming the state, just in case not to break some law.
This letter in in response to your written inquiry about the need for state permit to authorise the discharge of water from the Snow Dragon product. This response is not to be interpreted or used as our endorsement of your product.
Based on the information you provided, the operation of the Snow Dragon involves a heat exchanger in conjunction with 9,000,000 BTU/hr burners, without the addition of any chemicals to the snow, and release of produced water into the local storm water collection systems. This water routing practice requires permission of the owner of the storm water and does not require a discharge permit from our agency.

It goes on and finishes like this. However, the operators of your product shall be informed that direct release of substantially heated water from a Snow Dragon into natural waters, without an intermediate cooling step, can create thermal pollution and, thus, this specific release practice is not allowed.

Not much help, but they did not say no to storm drains.


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## Mark Oomkes

Neige;634474 said:


> No one has anymore answers. Its a wait and see what happens now. Anyone who has bought one will be the Ginny pig, to see what munis and the environment people think.
> I get mine next week. As soon as there is fresh snow, we will melt it and run some water tests. I will go from there. I can guarantee I wont be using a shopping cart as a filter.
> Amico and Twin are both new distributers this year, all they can tell us is what Snow Dragon already has told us.
> 
> This is from a state Department of Public Health and Environment.
> Sept.27,2006 I am not naming the state, just in case not to break some law.
> This letter in in response to your written inquiry about the need for state permit to authorise the discharge of water from the Snow Dragon product. This response is not to be interpreted or used as our endorsement of your product.
> Based on the information you provided, the operation of the Snow Dragon involves a heat exchanger in conjunction with 9,000,000 BTU/hr burners, without the addition of any chemicals to the snow, and release of produced water into the local storm water collection systems. This water routing practice requires permission of the owner of the storm water and does not require a discharge permit from our agency.
> 
> It goes on and finishes like this. However, the operators of your product shall be informed that direct release of substantially heated water from a Snow Dragon into natural waters, without an intermediate cooling step, can create thermal pollution and, thus, this specific release practice is not allowed.
> 
> Not much help, but they did not say no to storm drains.


Paul, I admire your testicular fortitude.

This crap is just out of hand. They don't want piles and piles of snow, you can't hardly salt it away anymore and now discharging heated water is thermal pollution???????????

This is just about the biggest pile of cattle excrement I have seen or heard of.

These bureaucrats have got to get over the cranial\rectal inversion and move into the real world where we have to get stuff done for as low a cost as possible.


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## JohnnyRoyale

Hey Paul-Has that Dragon lived up to your expectations? I watched a Trecan do its thing the other night, not sure on the model, but it pretty easily melted a 5 yd bucket of snow every minute. Total cost of fuel for the night for an estimated 120 triaxle loads melted was $5000.00.+ loading of course.


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## JD Dave

Thought I'd bring this thread up again since Paul and maybe others have had a chance to use their melters.


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## creativedesigns

I read this entire thread last nite....very interesting questions! I was talking to an Ottawa company who bought a snow melter last year.(not a snowdragon tho) He said it can consume 10 tri-axle trucks an hour. The hire-out cost of this machine is wayy expensive.

Basically if you have LARGE snow removal accounts, I can justify the expenses of buying a snow melter.

If getting a snow melter "hired out" from another company for your accounts, again they'd better be LARGE accounts with LOTS of snow to melt. Therefore justifying the cost savings of trucking/dumping fees.

However, if you have many small accounts scattered everywhere, Forget about it. The travelling time would eat ur costs fast!


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## JohnnyRoyale

I actually pmd Paul a couple of weeks ago on his thoughts on the dragon, and either he missed the q or had nothing good to say.


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## creativedesigns

JohnnyRoyale;819500 said:


> I actually pmd Paul a couple of weeks ago on his thoughts on the dragon, and either he missed the q or had nothing good to say.


Johnny, have you ever inquired about "hiring-out" a snow melter to see how quick/efficient it really is?

It always comes with an machine operator to run it.....cant get over the horly cost, insane! 

Yea, I PM'd Paul too last week. Haven't hurd from him?


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## JohnnyRoyale

creativedesigns;819504 said:


> Johnny, have you ever inquired about "hiring-out" a snow melter to see how quick/efficient it really is?
> 
> It always comes with an machine operator to run it.....cant get over the horly cost, insane!
> 
> Yea, I PM'd Paul too last week. Haven't hurd from him?


I have, and have seen them in action first hand. They will definitely save you money if you're hauling off site and having to pay for disposal costs, have a long round trip, and have a lot of snow to move. The trecans have to be primed with something like 2000 gals of water, which dont make them too mobile to go from site to site to site throughout the night. Yes they burn alot of fuel, but the numbers are in the melters favor under certain "ideal" conditions.


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## Neige

Hey Johnny your right I missed that question + not much to add still waiting what it will do this coming winter, they did some upgrades late January never really got to test it out.

Hey Cree, thought I had answered your pm, but could not find it so I missed that also.

I still believe the dragon has its place, and the 900 is very mobile. I move it from site to site filled with water if im not going far. My biggest issue is that it was melting at best 120 cubic yards instead of the 240 they claimed it did. Will definately keep you all informed what happens this winter.


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## JD Dave

Neige;819581 said:


> Hey Johnny your right I missed that question + not much to add still waiting what it will do this coming winter, they did some upgrades late January never really got to test it out.
> 
> Hey Cree, thought I had answered your pm, but could not find it so I missed that also.
> 
> I still believe the dragon has its place, and the 900 is very mobile. I move it from site to site filled with water if im not going far. My biggest issue is that it was melting at best 120 cubic yards instead of the 240 they claimed it did. Will definately keep you all informed what happens this winter.


Tell Tony to get on here and tell me a bedtime story about the Dragon Slayer. LOL


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## JohnnyRoyale

Who's Tony?


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## JD Dave

JohnnyRoyale;819626 said:


> Who's Tony?


Paul's brother, he calls the big Volvo loader and blower the Dragon Slayer. LOL


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## Top Dog

*gonna wanna see what happends with the results*



JD Dave;819634 said:


> Paul's brother, he calls the big Volvo loader and blower the Dragon Slayer. LOL


sorry just wanna keep an eye on this to see how it works out


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## Mark Oomkes

Neige;819581 said:


> My biggest issue is that it was melting at best 120 cubic yards instead of the 240 they claimed it did. Will definately keep you all informed what happens this winter.


So did they give it to you for half price then?


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## SnoDawgs

Neige;819581 said:


> Hey Johnny your right I missed that question + not much to add still waiting what it will do this coming winter, they did some upgrades late January never really got to test it out.
> Hey Cree, thought I had answered your pm, but could not find it so I missed that also.
> 
> I still believe the dragon has its place, and the 900 is very mobile. I move it from site to site filled with water if im not going far. My biggest issue is that it was melting at best 120 cubic yards instead of the 240 they claimed it did. Will definately keep you all informed what happens this winter.


120 is probably as real as real is real. Don't forget the published '240' was a theoretical value based according to the Principals of Heat Transfer, Machinery's Handbook 22nd Edition. I haven't went so far as to calculate to see if the theoretical value is real.....yet. 
It is a sales technique akin to describing the theory of quantum physics.There may very well be a snowdragon in the room, but you can't see it mathematically.


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## JWSnow

Looks like the Snow Melter Manufacturers and diesel fuel supplier's are the two that make out best when it comes to melting snow. The fuel used per yard or ton is unbelievable.


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## creativedesigns

JWSnow;828874 said:


> Looks like the Snow Melter Manufacturers and diesel fuel supplier's are the two that make out best when it comes to melting snow. The fuel used per yard or ton is unbelievable.


Okay. I wanted to bring this thread back up once again, cause I myself, am debating more & more on what would be the best system to have. Snow melter or Trucks (tandem or tri-axles)

Paul, how has your second year been with the Snow Dragon? Is it still as productive as last years trial. Anything break down or premature wear?

1) Lets say your running a 4 dump truck operation (all tri-axles) & they were bought used @ 50k each. The cost of insuring 4 trucks, diesel fuel, fixing breakdowns, buying $$$parts, mechanics bills, PAYROLL for the truck drivers & daily maintenance & safty. That $150K investment just skyrocketed to a insane dollar amount in expence for 4 pieces of equipment.

2) Now you get the snow melter. For quarter mil you have one piece of equipment to insure, maintain, fuel up, & operate. Even tho the cost of diesel is high, I think this investment can be more of a money saver in the long run.

Now, if I were to buy the dump truck system of removing snow, I can operate them full time in the summer months for equipment rental,& get on with city for snow removal rental. Its a year round operation with the trucks. The snowmelter just sits there?

Hmmmm......


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## JD Dave

creativedesigns;951315 said:


> Okay. I wanted to bring this thread back up once again, cause I myself, am debating more & more on what would be the best system to have. Snow melter or Trucks (tandem or tri-axles)
> 
> Paul, how has your second year been with the Snow Dragon? Is it still as productive as last years trial. Anything break down or premature wear?
> 
> 1) Lets say your running a 4 dump truck operation (all tri-axles) & they were bought used @ 50k each. The cost of insuring 4 trucks, diesel fuel, fixing breakdowns, buying $$$parts, mechanics bills, PAYROLL for the truck drivers & daily maintenance & safty. That $150K investment just skyrocketed to a insane dollar amount in expence for 4 pieces of equipment.
> 
> 2) Now you get the snow melter. For quarter mil you have one piece of equipment to insure, maintain, fuel up, & operate. Even tho the cost of diesel is high, I think this investment can be more of a money saver in the long run.
> 
> Now, if I were to buy the dump truck system of removing snow, I can operate them full time in the summer months for equipment rental,& get on with city for snow removal rental. Its a year round operation with the trucks. The snowmelter just sits there?
> 
> Hmmmm......


Wouldn't 50k x4 be 200K. Also unless your hauling 100 hours plus/year your better off not to buy trucks just use brokers. On a light winter where you might haul very little snow that makes up for the heavy winter. A snow melter really comes into play when you include snow hauling in a large bid and it snow must be hauled every storm. Do you really haul much snow?


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## JWSnow

You hire four or five tri-axle trucks on a short haul, and can remove 400 to 700 yards per hour. You have $ 55.00 to 80.00 per hour each depending what city or state. No driver wages, insurance, fuel or maintenance cost, truck breaks down goes off the clock. If you move snow for 10 days a year, in Michigan that would be a lot. Look at interest if you had 
note for the snow melter, some years you would not even use it.


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## creativedesigns

JD Dave;951354 said:


> Wouldn't 50k x4 be 200K. Also unless your hauling 100 hours plus/year your better off not to buy trucks just use brokers. On a light winter where you might haul very little snow that makes up for the heavy winter. A snow melter really comes into play when you include snow hauling in a large bid and it snow must be hauled every storm. Do you really haul much snow?


Your right...200K. Im gettin up there faster than expected with snow removal & hauling off sites. For now Im using brokers that charge by the load. If I need 4 trucks they come right away, get the job done in less that 1 hour. (4 trucks @ $200/load = $800 includes dumping cause hes got his own snow dump)

Or u can get a cheap tandem axle @ $72/hr & get the job done in 6 hours + dumping fee & waste alot of time.

But Time is money.


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## albhb3

creativedesigns;951315 said:


> Okay. I wanted to bring this thread back up once again, cause I myself, am debating more & more on what would be the best system to have. Snow melter or Trucks (tandem or tri-axles)
> 
> Paul, how has your second year been with the Snow Dragon? Is it still as productive as last years trial. Anything break down or premature wear?
> 
> 1) Lets say your running a 4 dump truck operation (all tri-axles) & they were bought used @ 50k each. The cost of insuring 4 trucks, diesel fuel, fixing breakdowns, buying $$$parts, mechanics bills, PAYROLL for the truck drivers & daily maintenance & safty. That $150K investment just skyrocketed to a insane dollar amount in expence for 4 pieces of equipment.
> 
> 2) Now you get the snow melter. For quarter mil you have one piece of equipment to insure, maintain, fuel up, & operate. Even tho the cost of diesel is high, I think this investment can be more of a money saver in the long run.
> 
> Now, if I were to buy the dump truck system of removing snow, I can operate them full time in the summer months for equipment rental,& get on with city for snow removal rental. Its a year round operation with the trucks. *The snowmelter just sits there*?
> 
> Hmmmm......


No it turns into the worlds most expensive hot tub


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## JohnnyRoyale

IMO you'd need more than 100 hrs a year of hauling to justify a triaxle. Maybe I missed something JD.


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## ColumbiaLand

check out michagan melters


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## SnoDawgs

*Go canada!!!*

http://www.jewbyte.info/02/snow-dragon-brought-in-to-melt-baltimore-snow/7856
http://delusionalduck.com/index.php/site/baltimore_unveils_new_weapon_against_leftover_snow
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-snow-melter0215,0,2099580.story




http://wbal.com/apps/news/templates/story.aspx?articleid=45754&zoneid=3
http://wbal.com/apps/news/articlefiles/45795-Wykoff Snow Melter Feature for February 16 2010 .MP3
http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/snow-dragon-helps-cleanup-effort/41470342
http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/598757
tymusic wesport tymusic


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## df21084

SnoDawgs;1003879 said:


> http://www.jewbyte.info/02/snow-dragon-brought-in-to-melt-baltimore-snow/7856
> http://delusionalduck.com/index.php/site/baltimore_unveils_new_weapon_against_leftover_snow
> http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bal-snow-melter0215,0,2099580.story
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://wbal.com/apps/news/templates/story.aspx?articleid=45754&zoneid=3
> http://wbal.com/apps/news/articlefiles/45795-Wykoff Snow Melter Feature for February 16 2010 .MP3
> http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/snow-dragon-helps-cleanup-effort/41470342
> http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/598757
> tymusic wesport tymusic


Yeah ... Baltimore is a mess. We normally get less snow than this over a normal winter. We got dumped on twice in a 2-3 day period.

Baltimore doesn't have the equipment or space to deal with this much snow, and the citizens are really *****ing a fit about the city's response to the snow removal. Baltimore was dumping a lot of their snow in the harbor, but the Snow Dragon seems to be a much better solution even with its high hourly cost.


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## JWSnow

Wow at that rate of snow melting, by June or July all the snow will be gone. Also the city will be broke.


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## BigLou80

JWSnow;1004163 said:


> Wow at that rate of snow melting, by June or July all the snow will be gone. Also the city will be broke.


The cities are already broke, don't know what melting snow has to do with it.


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## JD Dave

JohnnyRoyale;957278 said:


> IMO you'd need more than 100 hrs a year of hauling to justify a triaxle. Maybe I missed something JD.


I agree not sure why I wrote that.


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## abbe

Any updates on how this unit worked out for you?


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## Neige

Yep, in the end run it failed. At best I was getting 120 yards, the average was more around 90 yards. The argument became that 240 yards/hr would have to be 10 to 1 snow, which is crazy. You will never find that ratio in pushed snow. I still believe there is a use for these kinds of machines. I will say that Trecan has been making melters for over 30 years and they guarantee a certain tonnage an hour. For example the 60 P-D is guaranteed to melt 60 tons an hour. Regardless of the kind of snow you are going to melt, you know that this machine will melt at minimum 60 tons an hour. I hope this helps.


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## dfd9

Neige;1480845 said:


> Yep, in the end run it failed. At best I was getting 120 yards, the average was more around 90 yards. The argument became that 240 yards/hr would have to be 10 to 1 snow, which is crazy. You will never find that ratio in pushed snow. I still believe there is a use for these kinds of machines. I will say that Trecan has been making melters for over 30 years and they guarantee a certain tonnage an hour. For example the 60 P-D is guaranteed to melt 60 tons an hour. Regardless of the kind of snow you are going to melt, you know that this machine will melt at minimum 60 tons an hour. I hope this helps.


Sorry to hear that Paul, but it doesn't surprise me in the end that the guy who was selling this thing was as full of crap with this as he was with Allin Companies and SMG.


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## abbe

Damn not the response I was looking for lol.


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## SnoDawgs

Hey Paul,
Congrats on the CEO of the Year!
Best wishes for the upcoming season.
Mark


----------

