# How to price out plowing and salt application



## spdsuk

Hi,

I'm sure there have been tons of these threads but posting one myself will help me specifically.

*Backstory about my business:*

I had been working for my buddy for about 10 years under his company. Two years ago he decided that he wanted to get out of the business so I had bought him out. The majority of his customers and contract had signed on with me (I was the one that was providing their services as it was). At the risk of failing, I decided to not change the prices that he had been charging his (now mine) customers, I just copied his contracts and agreements. Most of these contracts are residential but there are a few (large) commercial contracts. These contracts include landscaping and Snow Removal/Salt Application services.

*Current Issue:*

I have taken on a new commercial account for landscaping services and I want to provide them with a bid for snow plowing and salt application. The Problem is, I don't actually know how to go about it. I could estimate the time is may take but I feel like that would not be the best way to do this. Here is a picture of the property









*
Property Stats
*
_Parking Lot Square Footage:_ 56,250 (Approximately) - About 100 Parking Spots with more than ample space to push snow
_
Walkways and Stairs: _445 Linear feet of walkways. Walkways are about 4 feet in width and there is a stair case that is 8 feet wide and there are 12 steps to it.

_Other Information:_ There are 4 loading docks and 1 garage door that would need to have snow back dragged away from them. This business is open from 7am to 5/6pm Mon-Fri. Closed on weekends and holidays.

*Equipment and Employees
*
x1 Operator with 3/4 ton truck with an 8" plow equipped with a sander
x1 dedicated "shoveler" that will snow blow the walkways and shovel the sidewalks. This employee would drive a separate truck (with snowblower and shovels) to property to work on the walkways and stairs.

Any push backs that would be needed, due to excessive snowfall is billed at a separate rate and that price would depend upon what equipment is needed. (but I already have those charges figured out)

So I guess what I am looking for is, how would you go about pricing this property out? I like to make my contracts inclusive for the season. I realize it's a gamble on making money and/or losing money, but it is what I am used to doing for my other accounts and I like the guaranteed income from month to month. However, I am open to other contract types.

I am posting this thread kind of late, so I apologize if I do not get back to any responses until the morning and/or throughout the day tomorrow. Thank you all in advance for your help and insight.


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## JustJeff

Well, that's about 1.3 acres of lot. I'd bid it for an hour (although I'd get it done more quickly than that). What's your time worth per hour? I'd also use about a yard of salt on the lot (800 lbs. give or take). Are you spreading bulk salt, or bagged? How long will it take your shoveler to clear the walks and stairs?


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## spdsuk

JustJeff said:


> Well, that's about 1.3 acres of lot. I'd bid it for an hour (although I'd get it done more quickly than that). What's your time worth per hour? I'd also use about a yard of salt on the lot (800 lbs. give or take). Are you spreading bulk salt, or bagged? How long will it take your shoveler to clear the walks and stairs?


I am at $75 per hour per person/plow truck when it comes to plowong and i would chargd my standard labor charge for the shoveler which is $45 per hour (that enployee would be paid $15 per hour).

It would be bulk salt in the lot and bagged salt on the walkways.

I would estimate the walkways and stairs to take about an hour to an hour and a half.


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## Sawboy

Am I reading this right? 12 years in the business, and you can't price it?....


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## spdsuk

Sawboy said:


> Am I reading this right? 12 years in the business, and you can't price it?....


Yes, unfortunatley. When working for my buddy, he never let go of the reigns enough to teach me or anyone else about the pricing of commercial lots. I can do out mowing and lawn maintenance and hardscape jobs. Hell, i can price out residential driveways for plowing and still maintain profit (but i dont have any driveways that take more than 30 mins max). My shortcomings lay in figuring out commercial lots for plowing


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## Defcon 5

Not to be a Richard.....If you don't know how to price it...Dont bid it...Recipe for failure..Here's a tip...Learn your costs and production rates


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## spdsuk

Defcon 5 said:


> Not to be a Richard.....If you don't know how to price it...Dont bid it...Recipe for failure..Here's a tip...Learn your costs and production rates


Well, can you honestly say that you never asked anybody for advice when you first started out? I know my cost of materials. I know my hourly rates. I did neglect to put them in the original post but I answered another person's comment with my rates. This isn't even a case of using what I know to figure this out because the other large commercial property I have requires one person to be there the the entire time it is snowing, which greatly affects the contract price and that is not the case with this property.

I mean, you say not to bid on it but everybody has to start somewhere. You can't figure things out without doing them and that's why I came here to seek the advice of how others would go about this.


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## JustJeff

I don't know where you live, but 75.00 per hour per truck is too cheap as far as I'm concerned. That's what you would pay a sub. I'd be at 125.00 per hour all day. I also don't know what you pay for your bulk salt where you live. 60.00 per ton, 80.00 per ton??? As I said, I'd spread between 800 and 1,000 lbs. of salt there, so you know what it's going to cost to buy your salt, what are you going to charge to spread it for both the lot and walks? That's up to you, but based on what you gave for prices earlier, I'm guessing that you're not charging enough for that either. But that's just a guess. As I said earlier, I'd bill for an hour to an hour and a quarter of my time for plowing = 125.00-150.00 for plowing the lot. Based on your numbers at invoicing 45.00 per hour for hand work, that would be 45.00-67.50 for shoveling. So, I'd be at 170.00-217.50 for all snow removal. Plus the cost of your salt, and what you're going to charge for spreading the salt. I'd charge 100.0-125.00 for spreading the salt on both the lot and walks. So, I'd be at 270.00-317.50 for everything other than the cost of your salt. And I'd round it off to 300.00 plus the cost of your salt. With a 1" trigger.


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## Defcon 5

spdsuk said:


> Well, can you honestly say that you never asked anybody for advice when you first started out? I know my cost of materials. I know my hourly rates. I did neglect to put them in the original post but I answered another person's comment with my rates. This isn't eve
> 
> n a case of using what I know to figure this out because the other large commercial property I have requires one person to be there the the entire time it is snowing, which greatly affects
> 
> the contract price and that is not the case with this property.
> 
> I mean, you say not to bid on it but everybody has to start somewhere. You can't figure things out without doing them and that's why I came
> 
> here to seek the advice of how others would go about this.


Sure I have.....But you have been in this "Industry" for 10 years supposedly...If you don't know how to price a job....You should not be bidding it...Simple as that....Go subcontract for someone and pay attention this time...Then maybe after a year or two you will be able to bid jobs without coming on an Internet site and asking very basic questions...SIMA is another good source for learning tools to help you grasp the basics of the "industry"....


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## Defcon 5

I will ask you a few questions to see if I can help so I don't get a nasty gram from MJD....How long will it take YOU to plow that lot??....How much salt and do you know the pricing and source of salt in your area??...How long will it take YOU to service those walks??


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## JMHConstruction

What "Richard" is saying (and he's right) is that you should be able to price it, just gotta put some thought in it. If you can't, you won't make it very long, so learn your numbers now and bid accordingly. 

If you've been plowing for any amount of time you'll know how long that lot will take, give or take a bit. Figure that to your direct job costs for the plowing, then all the "behind the scenes" costs, add in your desired profit, and there ya go.

Don't over think it, but don't sell yourself short either. I don't think with ALL your costs. $75/hr seems correct, but if that's what it is, and you're making a profit, good for you.

If you need help figuring out some costs let me know, but since the company has been around for some time, you should have had access (and looked over them with old owner) the old books. From there you can figure out what it costs to run the business for the winter.

As far as seasonal, look into the old books, or find online what the average snowfall per year, how many storms of x", xx", and so on, and how many ice events you have a year. Figure if it's going to cost you $x per storm, multiply by the number of times you'll be out on average, then maybe add on a little extra for wiggle room. 

Think I got everything. Now I need to put my boot in my employees ass, and take a trailer to the shop. I'll be on later tonight if you need help, you can PM me also, I'm feeling generous.


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## John_DeereGreen

I have nothing positive or constructive to add to this thread that hasn't been said already. 


JMHConstruction said:


> Now I need to put my boot in my employees ass, and take a trailer to the shop.


Hmm...wonder what happened....


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## spdsuk

Thank you everybody for your Insight and criticisms. I apologize for my lack of response time, I've been stuck on the hardscaping job all day. I will reply to everybody later on tonight. Thank you all again


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## spdsuk

JMHConstruction said:


> What "Richard" is saying (and he's right) is that you should be able to price it, just gotta put some thought in it. If you can't, you won't make it very long, so learn your numbers now and bid accordingly.
> 
> If you've been plowing for any amount of time you'll know how long that lot will take, give or take a bit. Figure that to your direct job costs for the plowing, then all the "behind the scenes" costs, add in your desired profit, and there ya go.
> 
> Don't over think it, but don't sell yourself short either. I don't think with ALL your costs. $75/hr seems correct, but if that's what it is, and you're making a profit, good for you.
> 
> If you need help figuring out some costs let me know, but since the company has been around for some time, you should have had access (and looked over them with old owner) the old books. From there you can figure out what it costs to run the business for the winter.
> 
> As far as seasonal, look into the old books, or find online what the average snowfall per year, how many storms of x", xx", and so on, and how many ice events you have a year. Figure if it's going to cost you $x per storm, multiply by the number of times you'll be out on average, then maybe add on a little extra for wiggle room.
> 
> Think I got everything. Now I need to put my boot in my employees ass, and take a trailer to the shop. I'll be on later tonight if you need help, you can PM me also, I'm feeling generous.


First off, thank you for the advice. It is much appreciated and I am definitely better off having for asked for the insight of others (even if some of the responses have been rather snooty).

1.) Yes, I SHOULD be able to price it by myself. But I can't. Why? My first six years landscaping, I didn't care. It was just a paycheck. I slowly started to realize that I actually enjoyed the work that I was preforming and the more I enjoyed what I did, the better I had become at it. My 6th year landscaping is when I really started paying attention to the finer details of what I was doing i terms of cost and time management. However, there was only so much i could work with because, while i had learned how to do a lot of things working for my buddy, when it came to any of the "administrative" work, he always kept a pretty tight lid on all of that (material cost, labor, profits, etc.). Most of everything I have figured out so far had been through sights like these and the landscaping community on Youtube. (Although, I know to take all advice with a grain of salt. The markets vary from region to region).

2.) I do admit that I should know how long a lot that size would take me but the only Winter contract that I was ever assigned to under my buddy (and one that continued on with my after the buyout) required me to be there for the entirety of every storm due to their "safety policies". This place is in operation 24/7/365 and we were required to keep all "roadways, parking lots and walkways clear of any accumulation above 1 inch". I never paid attention to how long it took me to clear any area there because i would just zone out and go.

3.) The $75 per hour is listed for any extra work beyond plowing (and outside of the contract price) so if they need push backs of snow banks, the price for a truck w/ operator is $75 per hour, a bobcat w/ operator is $95 per hour and a Front end loader w/ operator is $150 per hour. These prices were copied from the contracts that my buddy had set up. As sloppy as this is, i figured that if he, with his considerable overhead, was able to make a profit with these rates then i definitely can make a profit with my much lower overhead. But again, these numbers are for work outside of the contract price

4.) I have taken a look through what remained of his 'files". I didn't put a whole lot of faith in what was present considering he did a lot of work that was services in trade for services and other not so reliable business practices. In short, his bookkeeping was a horrid mess and there was no filing and proper storage of these records. He was very shiestery with a lot of his business practices, which would explain the constant IRS Audits.

Already, there has been a lot of information posted up here and I can use that to work toward what I need. I greatly appreciate yours and everyone else's help


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## spdsuk

JustJeff said:


> I don't know where you live, but 75.00 per hour per truck is too cheap as far as I'm concerned. That's what you would pay a sub. I'd be at 125.00 per hour all day. I also don't know what you pay for your bulk salt where you live. 60.00 per ton, 80.00 per ton??? As I said, I'd spread between 800 and 1,000 lbs. of salt there, so you know what it's going to cost to buy your salt, what are you going to charge to spread it for both the lot and walks? That's up to you, but based on what you gave for prices earlier, I'm guessing that you're not charging enough for that either. But that's just a guess. As I said earlier, I'd bill for an hour to an hour and a quarter of my time for plowing = 125.00-150.00 for plowing the lot. Based on your numbers at invoicing 45.00 per hour for hand work, that would be 45.00-67.50 for shoveling. So, I'd be at 170.00-217.50 for all snow removal. Plus the cost of your salt, and what you're going to charge for spreading the salt. I'd charge 100.0-125.00 for spreading the salt on both the lot and walks. So, I'd be at 270.00-317.50 for everything other than the cost of your salt. And I'd round it off to 300.00 plus the cost of your salt. With a 1" trigger.


I am in New England. Subcontractors in my area get between $50-$60 per hour. The $75 per hours is for any work that is required outside of the contract price (push backs). I had responded to another reply but I can say it here too. The one winter contract that I have is for the season. I copied the contract price and scope of work from the previous contract (that my buddy had set up). the reason i had kept it the same is because this was the only property that I was assigned to when I was working for him. Straight Salt around here was going for $90-$100 per cubic yard or $88 per yard if you bought 10+ at a time.

I am sorely under prepared for this because I have not had to do this crunching in the past. There have been some great responses to this and they have all been very helpful and at least got me thinking in the right direction. Maybe I should have started working this all out earlier in the year but hindsight is 20/20


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## JustJeff

Are you kidding me, 90-100 per YARD, not per ton? That's about 250 per ton. In any case, that would make my price on that lot 425.00 per push at 1".


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## spdsuk

JustJeff said:


> Are you kidding me, 90-100 per YARD, not per ton? That's about 250 per ton. In any case, that would make my price on that lot 425.00 per push at 1".


Yeah, they don't mess around up here with salt. I would wager a guess that it would be because there are so many entities that use the stuff up so fast. Most of them being the state. Supply and demand. ****ty economics, but economics none the less


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## JMHConstruction

Your biggest issue is going to be not knowing your time management, and not having good records from the past to back it up. Some your fault, some not. In any case, it is what it is. Do you know your operating costs? Start with that. I'm still pretty new to the snow industry, and made PLENTY of mistakes on my other business. After I got my head out of my ass, I learned to read, watch, and listen to any advice given, no matter what the attitude seemed like. If you mess up, just learn to correct it in the future. Also, don't let your customers scare you into losing money, and don't let them run your business.

Your first year is going to be tough. Do research on here about how long it should take per acre, etc, and go from there. You'll have to bid according to that, and just double check it with what you think it would be. Don't worry about what someone else is charging, make sure you're going to make money on it. Findlotsize.com is great for a quick way to figure how many acres you're tackling. 

Make sure to keep records of EVERYTHING. Time arrived, ground temp, wind speed and direction, outside temp, site conditions, time it took to plow, what slowed you down, time to salt, how much salt, so on and so on. Make a spread sheet or something preseason so you can fill it out quickly while you're there. Don't get lazy on it. Not only will it help you for future bids, but if you ever end up in court, it will help there too. Get in the habit of always recording everything. I build decks and I still keep records of everything.

Don't forget to put aside uncle sams cut either.


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## FredG

spdsuk said:


> Thank you everybody for your Insight and criticisms. I apologize for my lack of response time, I've been stuck on the hardscaping job all day. I will reply to everybody later on tonight. Thank you all again


Why don't you ask the guy you bought the business from? You should of made him educate you on the bidding end of it before you closed on it.


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## John_DeereGreen

JustJeff said:


> Are you kidding me, 90-100 per YARD, not per ton? That's about 250 per ton. In any case, that would make my price on that lot 425.00 per push at 1".


A yard of (reasonably dry) bulk salt is about 2200 pounds.


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## Defcon 5

I see the "Experts" have it handled...Should be good to go


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## JMHConstruction

Defcon 5 said:


> I see the "Experts" have it handled...Should be good to go


No expert, but might as well help where I can. If you or anyone else see something wrong with what I or anyone has said, please let me know. I'm still alright with learning something new, and would prefer to know now so I can fix my mistakes.Thumbs Up


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## JustJeff

I could have sworn that a yard of dry salt was 1,600. Thought I read that somewhere as well.


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## Defcon 5

JMHConstruction said:


> No expert, but might as well help where I can. If you or anyone else see something wrong with what I or anyone has said, please let me know. I'm still alright with learning something new, and would prefer to know now so I can fix my mistakes.Thumbs Up


You seem to know it all and express it in long winded posts....My point to the OP and this is a simple one...You should not go into a business without a clue...A Business Clue...An Industry Clue...You can sit there an expound all your wisdom...But it won't help...This gentleman needs to take a step back to square one...Let's start by maybe subbing for a local contractor and getting his feet wet and learning how to operate his business on that level first...

But what do I know...Keep encouraging him...I'm sure the contractor who takes over that site will appreciate his pricing that he had no clue doing and trying to rectify that first

This is the best advice I could give you and I mentioned it above...

Subcontract to a larger contractor...Run your equipment for a year or two...Learn the ins and outs of running your business that way...Learn what it's like to deal with broken equipment..Learn what it's like to deal with people not showing on back to back storms..Learn the Business...That way if there's a failure and there will be...It's on him not you


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## JMHConstruction

Defcon 5 said:


> You seem to know it all and express it in long winded posts....My point to the OP and this is a simple one...You should not go into a business without a clue...A Business Clue...An Industry Clue...You can sit there an expound all your wisdom...But it won't help...This gentleman needs to take a step back to square one...Let's start by maybe subbing for a local contractor and getting his feet wet and learning how to operate his business on that level first...
> 
> But what do I know...Keep encouraging him...I'm sure the contractor who takes over that site will appreciate his pricing that he had no clue doing and trying to rectify that first
> 
> This is the best advice I could give you and I mentioned it above...
> 
> Subcontract to a larger contractor...Run your equipment for a year or two...Learn the ins and outs of running your business that way...Learn what it's like to deal with broken equipment..Learn what it's like to deal with people not showing on back to back storms..Learn the Business...That way if there's a failure and there will be...It's on him not you


I agree with you 100%. Problem is, he already has the business, and is planning to give bids. Might as well help where we can.


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## leolkfrm

wow $15 an hr for the worst part of snow removal? i dont mind working on side walks, but, i would not get out of bed at 3 am for that!


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## ktfbgb

Push backs and extra work I usually charge a lot more than normal pricing. Because if you are going back later for extra work or push backs its because it was big storm or you've been getting your butt handed to you for weeks with smaller storms back to back. Meaning that I'm tired, and i dont want to work anymore and just sleep. So if I'm gonna go back out, it better be worth my time. Don't make the mistake of undercharging. Like many have said already you should have gotten the business experience first but its too late for that. 

You need to talk to some of the people in your area and find out what the going rate is. You need to know what the market will bear in order to see if you will be competative. Then you can make adjustments to your equipment/personnel etc to see if you can get the job done and make a profit. In the end though you need to know your operating costs and charge enough to cover costs, your pay, and a profit for your company. Only you know those numbers, no one else can tell you what you need to charg.


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## FredG

OP, Why would you buy a business without being educated on it. You say the former owner is your friend. Furthermore he has to be some kind of:terribletowel:to turn you loose without educating you. I understand that he may wanted to keep that to himself when you were working for him for to many reasons to post. If I was to buy any business I want to be educated on it before I commit.

It is not to late, Contact the former owner he is in your region and is your best bet. This is why you are getting a hard time from some members. You made a mistake period. I sure hope you don't have installments on the biz. Your former boss - friend set you up for failure.

The education is probably the most value to what you bought whatever that maybe. Your pricing is low and maybe okay for your region but it will be tough for anyone to price a job out for you unless from your region and knows what the market can stand and what it's all about. I wish you the best of luck.


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## FredG

leolkfrm said:


> wow $15 an hr for the worst part of snow removal? i dont mind working on side walks, but, i would not get out of bed at 3 am for that!


$25.00 per hr at a minimal if I was looking. $15.00 first time he freezes them off he's a no show from there. lol


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## Camlaw

Not sure where u are..but insurance companies are starting to review contracts prior to adding additional insured..so if ya bid don't meet their requirements..no insurance..plus I'm sure your on the younger side and full of energy..like we all started..don't bid job to get it..bid it to be responsible for it and make money at 300am..meaning getting out of bed for a couple of hundred dollars..me ?..$250.00 to plow..$100.00 to shovel..up to 3"..one trip..same amount for salt application..but I don't get the jobs I used to..lol


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## FredG

Camlaw said:


> Not sure where u are..but insurance companies are starting to review contracts prior to adding additional insured..so if ya bid don't meet their requirements..no insurance..plus I'm sure your on the younger side and full of energy..like we all started..don't bid job to get it..bid it to be responsible for it and make money at 300am..meaning getting out of bed for a couple of hundred dollars..me ?..$250.00 to plow..$100.00 to shovel..up to 3"..one trip..same amount for salt application..but I don't get the jobs I used to..lol


Younger??? You kidding? Ya I'm younger retired once and created the biz I own sole. I bid my work scientifically or know what I can handle to be profitable in my head. Which usually works the best. My insurance company has not questioned me on my bids or jobs. I will agree on insurance company's looking at completed operations,. No credit, no job history for qualifying etc. Word of mouth, Reference for qualifying are what puts you above others, Sorry I forgot NSP's will take the ;lowest :terribletowel:. True business men don't have to worry about lowest bid unless finding work though Dodge reports or similar, Repeat clients is where it's at or in my mind your walking backwards.


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## Camlaw

I was responding to original post..out here in mass. Insurance companies are screening bids before agreeing..just another way they protect themselves..drives cost up..


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## FredG

Camlaw said:


> I was responding to original post..out here in mass. Insurance companies are screening bids before agreeing..just another way they protect themselves..drives cost up..


Got you, I never had my GL people look at my bids, But I'm in NY.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care

Is there a link where I can see driveway size and prices for snow plowing as I'm a new boss. As I have done the landscaping jobs for a long time but never would learn the process. No one told me. Such a bummer.


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