# Plowing with Medium Duty vs. Pick-up



## CK82 (Sep 17, 2005)

Hello All,

I was looking for some feedback in regards to efficiency of plowing with a medium duty vs. a pick-up. We run multiple pick-ups with V plows & expandables, some of which with V box salters in the back. We also run a medium duty with an 11 bed, expandable plow, and larger 5-6 yard V box salter. The medium duty's just seem cumbersome, even one ton dually's.

Just looking for some feedback on what you guys prefer, and what an ideal setup would be for commercial plowing.

On a side note we also run a small/mid sized wheel loader with a Metal Pless live edge, and a Kubota M7060 with a Metal Pless live edge. I definitely realize those are our money makers, however they sit all summer unused.


----------



## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

No knowledge yet on medium duty, but we do operate SRW and DRW trucks. IMO a lot depends on client lot layouts. We have lots that you couldn't get a dually on some of it-too narrow. Other lots see the benefit of wider plows and bigger weight for pushing.

That being said, we do plan to integrate a 5500 class truck into the fleet to take advantage of 8.5-11' expandable plows and the summer towing benefit.


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

We have 5 of the 7500 or larger trucks and 3 pickups in the current fleet. There’s no comparison in efficiency between them. The big trucks hold much more salt, lay down more salt when needed (being hydro), and move larger piles of snow with ease. 

There is a huge difference in maneuverability between the larger trucks so make sure you look for something with the highest wheel cut you can find. The big truck with the right setup will give you better visibility being higher up and much better turning ability than any pickup out there.

Get ready for a lot more maintenance and MUCH higher repair bills when something goes down.


----------



## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

I've had 2 different pickups setup with plows over a 9yr span and for the last 4-5 years had an F550. Hands down I'd take the 550 over the 3/4ton pickup even running the same plow and the same 2yd spreader. It turns tighter, handles the weight without issue, pushes far better, and is all around a much better platform for the job then the 3/4ton pickup was.
In the attached picture the truck was in 2wd, you're not doing that with a normal pickup in 2wd, maybe 4x4 if you're loaded heavy but it would still be working hard.


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

To clarify are you talking something like a 550 which is pretty much a beefed up pickup or a medium duty as in class 7 and 8 single axle dumps?


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

This really depends on a few things. The size/shape of lots your doing being the main thing. They can range from residential, Dr offices, restaurants, furniture stores, tractor supply, manufacturer plants to the big box store. Then it depends if you want your plowing trucks separate from your salt trucks.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

LapeerLandscape said:


> This really depends on a few things. The size/shape of lots your doing being the main thing. They can range from residential, Dr offices, restaurants, furniture stores, tractor supply, manufacturer plants to the big box store. Then it depends if you want your plowing trucks separate from your salt trucks.


Agree. Unless it's a big open Wally world gimme a 3/4 ton...


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

rizzoa13 said:


> To clarify are you talking something like a 550 which is pretty much a beefed up pickup or a medium duty as in class 7 and 8 single axle dumps?


This. What is the medium truck you are reffering to?


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> This. What is the medium truck you are reffering to?


I would assume he's saying 550 and up as he also says 1 tons too...


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I would assume he's saying 550 and up as he also says 1 tons too...


I guess it depends on how you look at it.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

The question is which vehicle can you do your full range of lots faster with. Bottom line is even with the blades we have today you can only carry so much snow until it spills over the sides.
I would also say it's 80% or more operator.


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

F750 and larger single axles are what I think of as a medium duty


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

rizzoa13 said:


> MUCH higher repair bills when something goes down.


I'm not sure how true that is I just spent $400 on front pads and one rotor for a 5500 just now, and did the back drums and shoes on a 6500 for about $300...


----------



## bluejlandscaper (Mar 2, 2008)

I prefer the F-550 over a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup any day. I can push more snow with my F-550 and 9' Western blade
My new F-550 will get the new Western wideout 8'6" to 11'. That will make an awesome plowing rig.
The only machine that I like better for plowing is my Cat 906M with the 10-15 HLA wing blade.


----------



## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

To the original poster CK82, when you tell us you are looking for a much more manuverable not so large a vehicle, and then say "commercial use" in the same breath, it leaves us guessing exactly what kind of actual use the machine may be used for. You did say though that you would like to figure out and make use of the machine in the warmer/summer months.

We tried Hino cab-overs and have not looked back since. The Hinos have done everything we have asked of them and more. Winter or summer has not held us back. Plowing, salting, liquid, towing, winching, flatbedding other machines and vehicles. Once we figured out a switch-n-go type system, the floodgates opened and a whole other world flashed for us to be able to do even more things and provide more services to offer and keep the flow of dough running 365 days a year with the Hinos.

Take a look.

https://www.hino.com/hino-trucks-hino-155.html
https://www.hino.com/hino-trucks-hino-195.html
https://www.hino.com/hino-trucks-hino-195h.html
A neat switch system video.






And for the price of these machines, they are right in the ballpark. They are made to work. Semi creature comforts and they just work.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Never thought of a won ton as a medium duty, but the wikipedia says I'm wrong.

*Table of US GVWR classifications*

US truck classDuty classificationWeight limit [1][7]ExamplesClass 1Light truck0-6,000 pounds (0-2,722 kg)Chevrolet Colorado/GMC Canyon, Ford Ranger, Honda Ridgeline FWD[8], Jeep Gladiator, Nissan Frontier, Toyota TacomaClass 2aLight truck6,001-8,500 pounds (2,722-3,856 kg)Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra 1500, Ford F-150, Honda Ridgeline AWD[8][9][10], Lexus GX, Lexus LX, Nissan Titan, Ram 1500, Toyota TundraClass 2bLight/Medium truck8,501-10,000 pounds (3,856-4,536 kg)Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra 2500, Ford F-250,  Nissan Titan XD, Ram 2500[8][9][10]Class 3Medium truck10,001-14,000 pounds (4,536-6,350 kg)Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra 3500, Ford F-350, Ford F-450 (pickup only), Ram 3500
Isuzu NPR[11]Class 4Medium truck14,001-16,000 pounds (6,351-7,257 kg)Chevrolet Silverado 4500HD/International CV, Ford F-450 (chassis cab), Ram 4500[8]
Isuzu NPR-HD,[11]Class 5Medium truck16,001-19,500 pounds (7,258-8,845 kg)Chevrolet Silverado 5500HD/International CV, Ford F-550, Ram 5500
Isuzu NRR,[11] Freightliner Business Class M2 106, Kenworth T170, Peterbilt 325Class 6Medium truck19,501-26,000 pounds (8,846-11,793 kg)Chevrolet Silverado 6500HD/International CV, Ford F-650, Freightliner Business Class M2 106, International MV[12], Kenworth T270, Peterbilt 330Class 7Heavy truck26,001-33,000 pounds (11,794-14,969 kg)Autocar ACMD,[13] Freightliner Business Class M2 106, Ford F-750[14], Hino 338, International MV, Kenworth K370, Kenworth T370 and T440/470, Mack MD, Peterbilt 220 and 337/348Class 8Heavy truck33,001 pounds (14,969 kg) and aboveAutocar ACX and DC; Freightliner Cascadia, Business Class M2 112, 118SD, and EconicSD; Ford F-750; Hino XL8; International LT, HV, and RH; Kenworth T680, T880, and W990; Mack Anthem, Granite, Pinnacle, and TerraPro; Peterbilt 389,[15] 579, and 520; Western Star 4800, 4900 and 5700



rizzoa13 said:


> F750 and larger single axles are what I think of as a medium duty


What the heck do you consider heavy duty?


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rizzoa13 said:


> Get ready for a lot more maintenance and MUCH higher repair bills when something goes down.


As Aj mentioned, I don't find this to be necessarily true. Randall won't either.

I had all 4 brakes on my Sterling done a couple years ago, price was around $2,200. The rears on my F800 done a few years before that were $5k. 35K GVWR vs 26K GVWR.

22.5 tires last far longer than 19.5s.

An alternator for my Sterling is $168 and wide open access, less than an hour to remove and replace. Try that on a 550 or 5500, or for that cheap.

Sure major engine or transmission repairs might be more expensive price wise, but not necessarily more cost wise.

A class 7 or 8 truck will outlast a 4 or 5 because of the heavier components all the way around.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Never thought of a won ton as a medium duty, but the wikipedia says I'm wrong.
> 
> *Table of US GVWR classifications*
> 
> ...


A trojan loader?


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

As the others have said, totally depends on lot layout. 

But in all reality (and it will never happen completely) I am trying to get out of plowing with trucks and move to equipment for plowing and trucks for cleaning up and/or salting. The equipment is so much more efficient. 

Anyways, we plow with 2500s, 5500s, a 750 and sometimes the Sterling. Both 5500's have Boss V's and salt spreaders. The 750 and Sterling have 10' straight blades, the Sterling also has an underbody scraper. 

If the lots can't be plowed in some sort of circle, the smaller trucks are faster. But, in heavier events, the larger trucks will always outplow a smaller truck...as others have noted.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> A trojan loader?


Before or after it's worn oot?


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I am trying to get out of plowing


You should of stopped the sentence right there...


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> As Aj mentioned, I don't find this to be necessarily true. Randall won't either.
> 
> I had all 4 brakes on my Sterling done a couple years ago, price was around $2,200. The rears on my F800 done a few years before that were $5k. 35K GVWR vs 26K GVWR.
> 
> ...


I have a Sterling coming tomorrow for a LOF, and some small things. Has. Kitten in it. When I'm done I will post the invoice. It doesn't hold much more oil that a Ford pick up diesel. And it ain't hard to do.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Before or after it's worn oot?


The tires or the pivot pin?


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> The tires or the pivot pin?


Yes


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> You should of stopped the sentence right there...


Agreed...Eye noah guy in Hawaii that is smarter than me...he's getting oot.


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Agreed...Eye noah guy in Hawaii that is smarter than me...he's getting oot.


Sacrifice to the volcano Gods


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Randall Ave said:


> Sacrifice to the volcano Gods


I might be willing to volunteer if this winter doesn't get any better.


----------



## Tyler Jones (Oct 8, 2010)

I did a presentation on this at the 2019 SIMA Symposium.

Attached if you are interested.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Tyler Jones said:


> I did a presentation on this at the 2019 SIMA Symposium.
> 
> Attached if you are interested.


I have a question:

•Trucks with over 26,000 GVWR (potential weight) require CDL Drivers

Can you explain what the potential weight has to do with the CDL requirement?


----------



## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Never thought of a won ton as a medium duty, but the wikipedia says I'm wrong.


I always thought the general GVWR rule was

Under 12K Light Duty
12K - 26K Medium Duty
Over 26K Heavy Duty

But with the one tons getting higher and higher GVWR's these days that may no longer be a good scale.


----------



## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Can you explain what the potential weight has to do with the CDL requirement


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have a question:
> 
> •Trucks with over 26,000 GVWR (potential weight) require CDL Drivers
> 
> Can you explain what the potential weight has to do with the CDL requirement?


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> As the others have said, totally depends on lot layout.
> 
> But in all reality (and it will never happen completely) I am trying to get out of plowing with trucks and move to equipment for plowing and trucks for cleaning up and/or salting. The equipment is so much more efficient.
> 
> ...


For us I dont see heavier events making much difference. We try and get things plowed before it gets too deep even if we have to plow them multiple times.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> For us I dont see heavier events making much difference. We try and get things plowed before it gets too deep even if we have to plow them multiple times.


K


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The good old "plowing with the storm"...gotcha!


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have a question:
> 
> •Trucks with over 26,000 GVWR (potential weight) require CDL Drivers
> 
> Can you explain what the potential weight has to do with the CDL requirement?


Here we go.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have a question:
> 
> •Trucks with over 26,000 GVWR (potential weight) require CDL Drivers
> 
> Can you explain what the potential weight has to do with the CDL requirement?


And that's how the fight started


----------



## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> The good old "plowing with the storm"...gotcha!


Oh yeah that worked great with winter storm Gail a month ago when we ha 2-3"/hour for 7 hours straight! Great idea!


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Kvston said:


> Oh yeah that worked great with winter storm Gail a month ago when we ha 2-3"/hour for 7 hours straight! Great idea!


Sew mulch anger...


----------



## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Nah I don’t sew much anymore...moved on to cross fifty yarning.


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Tandem, tri and road tractor is heavy duty to me. Anything single axle we call medium duty.

Id much rather plow in my kodiak 8500 than my tundra in a small or technical lot. Visibility and turning radius are better all around.


----------



## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Kvston said:


> Oh yeah that worked great with winter storm Gail a month ago when we ha 2-3"/hour for 7 hours straight! Great idea!


It least you got some snow.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

rizzoa13 said:


> Tandem, tri and road tractor is heavy duty to me. Anything single axle we call medium duty.
> 
> Id much rather plow in my kodiak 8500 than my tundra in a small or technical lot. Visibility and turning radius are better all around.


Tundra, that explains it. I'd rather plow in a GM vehicle to.


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Lol not nice! That jap truck is great it just turns like any pickup, bad.


----------



## CK82 (Sep 17, 2005)

I was referring to medium duty as class 4 to class 6. (Chevy 4500-6500's). I haven't followed specs on the Ford's or Dodge's, however I believe their 4500-6500 series trucks are similar GVWR.

The Ford F550 in the picture early on in this thread does look like just a beefed up pick-up though.

I plow in a GMC 2500 double cab with a 1.5 yard v box, generally in 2wd with a load of salt in the hopper. Shifting and navigating seems some much faster than in that of a medium duty. With the exception of extremely wet and deep snow, I don't believe I have had issues pushing what my plow could contain.

@Ice-sage , how long of a chassis, dump or flat bed length do you run on your Hino's? With a short enough chassis they would be very manuverable. Does your staff like them? Now days the visibility sucks, as the hood is so damn high on pick-up trucks. 4wd? Have any pictures? Those switch n go setups aren't cheap, however it would be very efficient to switch things up "anytime" needed.


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

I’d suggest going to an f650 or Chevy 5500/6500 then. The f550 and dodge 5500 are just bigger pickup trucks. They don’t have the braking capacity of the larger truck.

I really don’t know much about the f650 but on the Chevys the turning radius is much better on that size truck than any pickup you will find. That’s the most important part is having that wheel cut. It makes driving (obviously), reversing, k turning, driving a trailer and parking a trailer so much easier.


----------



## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I can’t think of a single account I’ve plowed that’s more than 1/3 acre that I wouldn’t rather plow with something like a 4300 international or similar.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

In my humble opinion.

I believe I've always ran the best combination, a 250 or a 350 single wheel shortbed and a 11.5 Vee plow. With two, sometimes 3 100gal tanks for refueling.

Power and weight was never an issue.

Mountain of heavy concrete






Pushing piles after skid steer ran out of traction


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

rjigto4oje said:


> No plowing ?,





rizzoa13 said:


> I'd suggest going to an f650 or Chevy 5500/6500 then. The f550 and dodge 5500 are just bigger pickup trucks. They don't have the braking capacity of the larger truck.
> 
> I really don't know much about the f650 but on the Chevys the turning radius is much better on that size truck than any pickup you will find. That's the most important part is having that wheel cut. It makes driving (obviously), reversing, k turning, driving a trailer and parking a trailer so much easier.


Yep a 550 is just a bigger pickup truck, that I gross out at 50,000 pounds.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

1olddogtwo said:


> In my humble opinion.
> 
> I believe I've always ran the best combination, a 250 or a 350 single wheel shortbed and a 11.5 Vee plow. With two, sometimes 3 100gal tanks for refueling.
> 
> ...


Agreed. All this bigger truck stuff is hogswash... But it's also helpful having a Furd...


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I came home for the weekend, heard your boys make it some snow.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Agreed. All this bigger truck stuff is hogswash... But it's also helpful having a Furd...


Best pushing Furd I had was the destroyed Fummins.

It would push a mountain at an idle.


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Might hurt your ego but you are a pickup truck. You have the same components as the smaller trucks they are just larger. 

You don't weigh half of a medium duty truck. You can't haul a quarter of what a medium duty can, you don't have the option of air brakes or air supply for trailer. I mean c'mon man


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Tell me more about these “air brakes “and how they make a truck more robust.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Best pushing Furd I had was the destroyed Fummins.
> 
> It would push a mountain at an idle.


Take it to the rant thread...


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

They stop your truck better and are safer in the event of a failure?

I hope your trolling.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Nope, seriously asking.

You don’t sound so sure ,
Is that a answer, because the ? Is deceiving.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Tell me more about these "air brakes "and how they make a truck more robust.


Give me air brakes\breaks over juice any day, all day.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Give me air brakes\breaks over juice any day, all day.


Are they available in a med-duty pick up truck?


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

I still feel like you are trolling but whatever. When an air brake line goes out the brakes get locked in a closed position. While instantly having a brake lock up on you isn't a great thing either its a far cry better than having no braking power while going down the road loaded.

Much easier to work on and a lot less to rot out on a salt truck.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mumm low air warning buzzing going off
The green needle way into the red, lost all air psi coming down a mountain in a f750or was it a f800( either way) boom truck loaded with towers for a chair lift.

And the wheels kept going around and around
Picked up quite a bit of speed too.
Before down shifting.

So I asked, How would air brakes make a truck more robust and a better plow rig .


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

rizzoa13 said:


> I still feel like you are trolling but whatever. When an air brake line goes out the brakes get locked in a closed position. While instantly having a brake lock up on you isn't a great thing either its a far cry better than having no braking power while going down the road loaded.
> 
> Much easier to work on and a lot less to rot out on a salt truck.


See that's a major negative, I've limped a few broken brake line trucks home via down shifts and plow anchor brake...


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Your brakes should have locked up on you and stopped the truck. A malfunction is a malfunction but by design that shouldn't have happened to you. 

Air brakes make a truck more robust because they stop better than juice brakes. Its the reason heavier trucks don't even have a hydraulic brake option. If your vehicle isn't weighted beyond the capacity of your hydraulic brakes then great, good for you. My truck rolls down the street close to its 40,500# gvw when loaded with salt and I wouldn't even leave my house at that weight with juice brakes.

Ive never had to limp an air brake truck home because I haven't had a broken line. Haven't had a rusted out air tube either and I grease my brakes religiously so haven't had anything seize up on me and need replacing.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

rizzoa13 said:


> Your brakes should have locked up on you and stopped the truck. A malfunction is a malfunction but by design that shouldn't have happened to you.
> 
> Air brakes make a truck more robust because they stop better than juice brakes. Its the reason heavier trucks don't even have a hydraulic brake option. If your vehicle isn't weighted beyond the capacity of your hydraulic brakes then great, good for you. My truck rolls down the street close to its 40,500# gvw when loaded with salt and I wouldn't even leave my house at that weight with juice brakes.
> 
> Ive never had to limp an air brake truck home because I haven't had a broken line. Haven't had a rusted out air tube either and I grease my brakes religiously so haven't had anything seize up on me and need replacing.


I think you're missing what this thread is about... And it's not what brakes are better, sure air on 20 rolling tons is... It's about what truck is the most efficient. And a properly equipped 250/350 will run circles around a those types of trucks on a normal size lot... As I said earlier if we're talking about a open Wally World we can make the case for larger trucks...


----------



## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Speaking from a limited perspective on plowing but broader on construction-smaller and nimble are better and more forgiving on cut up job sites/lots and larger is more efficient on larger more open areas.

We had a fuel station for a couple years that I considered staging a skid steer on just because the lot was small and traffic congested it easily.

Each style of equipment has pros and cons. Examine for your route and your needs and you will get the best for you.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Are they available in a med-duty pick up truck?


Sure...you can get an Intertrashional.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Sure...you can get an Intertrashional.


Sew your international is no better than a pick up at plowing parking lots?


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

rizzoa13 said:


> rizzoa13 said:
> 
> 
> > Your brakes should have locked up on you and stopped the truck. A malfunction is a malfunction but by design that shouldn't have happened to you.
> ...


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Let's try and stay within the realm of the context of the question.

You can't hurt my ego, to be plowsite you have to leave that at the door.

What's taking average size Walmart, home Depot or whatever.

In my opinion, ranked best to worst for maneuverability and production.

Skid.... highly maneuverable

Loader, maneuverable high capacity.

Pick up with 10ft plow with wings, excellent and same capacity as a medium duty truck.

Medium to heavy duty truck, cumbersome, slow, less visibility unless it is a cabover design.

And before you school / educate me on the benefits of air brakes. Don't forget about the part about frozen brakes, evaporators, sledgehammer, airline antifreeze.

Are air brakes better for heavy loads, ain't nobody going to disagree with that. Our air brakes more problematic, yes.

Is it difficult to find operators with the proper license?

What does the operator do when the truck has been sitting for 2 weeks and the brakes are frozen and he's got a load up and salt?

Do you think he's really going to light underneath the truck with a hammer and bang on the brakes?


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

I don’t know where this become a d*ck slinging contest but the question was about medium duty trucks. To me that’s a single axle dump, so f650 or 750 sized for all you Ford people.

Do you have experience plowing with a truck that size in a small lot? I do and I can do the same lot much quicker with a larger truck. Maneuverability is better, not worse and visibility is much improved. If you’ve driven a truck with a high wheel cut you’d understand what I’m saying, there’s just no difference.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

rizzoa13 said:


> I don't know where this become a d*ck slinging contest but the question was about medium duty trucks. To me that's a single axle dump, so f650 or 750 sized for all you Ford people.
> 
> Do you have experience plowing with a truck that size in a small lot? I do and I can do the same lot much quicker with a larger truck. Maneuverability is better, not worse and visibility is much improved. If you've driven a truck with a high wheel cut you'd understand what I'm saying, there's just no difference.


I find this very appropriate today..... expecting a few inches of snow starting tomorrow I just went to move my f-650RB.... And this is what I got, it's been sitting for at least 2 weeks.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Olddog and a few others are rather enthusiastic plow-jockeys. 
They tend to plow like their trucks and plows are disposable tools. 
Have you watched any of his vids.
I’ve seen his GPS tracks and he’s hit 60 miles an hour in a parking lot while plowing...

While I would agree with you in an open( no cars), 1-3 acre lot or larger with minimal islands that a med duty could move more snow than a 2500-3500 .
Add in a few islands & a few cars and the advantage goes back to the pick up truck.

Jmo


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

rizzoa13 said:


> I don't know where this become a d*ck slinging contest but the question was about medium duty trucks. To me that's a single axle dump, so f650 or 750 sized for all you Ford people.
> 
> Do you have experience plowing with a truck that size in a small lot? I do and I can do the same lot much quicker with a larger truck. Maneuverability is better, not worse and visibility is much improved. If you've driven a truck with a high wheel cut you'd understand what I'm saying, there's just no difference.


Oh so now you have to talk down to us because we are Ford people and don't know any better talking about slinging....

A little bit of background, In our small fleet of 275 vehicles, 11 of them have air brakes. Several are also 650s or 750s. I have from military with them, I'm also a CDL holder not that that means a whole lot.

As you might I've worked with Arctic for the last 20 years, of the 75 salt trucks, none of them have an air brakes. Most of these are internationals, just recently started adding f550s in the last couple of years.

I wonder why.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Hydromaster said:


> Olddog and a few others are rather enthusiastic plow-jockeys.
> They tend to plow like their trucks and plows are disposable tools.
> Have you watched any of his vids.
> I've seen his GPS tracks and he's hit 60 miles an hour in a parking lot while plowing...
> ...


Wait they aren't disposable, damn it!!! For years I've been buying new trucks and snow plows every season.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I better put some of this in my f550, I'm sure my brakes will work better. I'm told it's a adds capacity


----------



## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

rizzoa13 said:


> I still feel like you are trolling but whatever. When an air brake line goes out the brakes get locked in a closed position. While instantly having a brake lock up on you isn't a great thing either its a far cry better than having no braking power while going down the road loaded.
> 
> Much easier to work on and a lot less to rot out on a salt truck.


It's going off topic, but there is some mis-information here with respect to air versus hydraulic brake safety.

This is not a comment on their reliability in plowing service, since I don't have experience that would provide a foundation for an opinion.

When an air-line goes, brakes do not necessarily lock, any more than a cable parking brake on a car, or driveline brake on a truck will lock a wheel.

Spring brakes will be applied in the event of an air pressure loss, but they will not lock a wheel unless you are lightly loaded. Their stopping force, as they are typically built with equal size diaphragms in service and spring brakes, is less than the service brakes (otherwise air pressure would not release them).

I have never seen a front axle with spring brakes. If the air system for the front brakes go, no brakes get applied. You still have service and spring brakes on the rear axle.

If the air system for the rear brakes go, the spring brakes get applied. They don't lock the wheel. You still have front service brakes.

Now consider hydraulic brakes split by axle. If the front axle goes, then you have rear service brakes. If the rear axle goes on a hydraulic system, you still have the front service brakes, and the emergency/parking brake.

There is not much safety difference. One could argue that air brakes might have a slight advantage in the case of a rear axle going, since then you have an automatically partially applied rear axle and service brakes on the front axle. On the other hand, one could argue that with hydraulic brakes, you can more easily limp to the next exit/get out of a hazardous location.

Also, there are water issues in air systems that are not present in hydraulic systems, as well as more leak points with repeater valves, etc.

Either system can work just fine. Otherwise, when stopping a 2 million pound aircraft from 150 miles an hour or so, aircraft manufacturers wouldn't use hydraulic brakes.

FMVSS 393.52 describes the performance requirements of brakes

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=1&ty=HTML&h=L&mc=true&=PART&n=pt49.5.393#se49.5.393_143
The emergency brakes are only required to have 44% of the braking capability of service brakes, and generally are much lower, because service brakes generally do much better than requirements. A spring brake is like a 1/2 applied service brake.

Thus, if you are headed down a hill, they won't stop you quickly, and may not even slow you down if the hill is steep (energy put into the system by the descent is more than the brake can dissipate as heat).

Heavy trucks tend to have air brakes because they tow trailers, and it is easier to meet the "apply the trailer brakes on breakaway" requirements with air systems than hydraulic, as well as not worrying as much about contamination.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Aerospace Eng said:


> It's going off topic, but there is some mis-information here with respect to air versus hydraulic brake safety.
> 
> This is not a comment on their reliability in plowing service, since I don't have experience that would provide a foundation for an opinion.
> 
> ...


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

I can see your mind is made up and there’s no changing that. Good for you for having conviction.

Let me reiterate. The op asked about medium duty trucks so I commented on my experience driving both medium duty trucks and pickups. It got brought up by you that your f250 or 350 could outplow a larger truck. Ive got a different opinion, we’ll both have to deal with that.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Right, it won't change.

Unless your hanging a box plow off your medium or heavy duty truck. I've pushed the largest plow made for years with a SRW truck. 11.5 is a fairly large plow would you not agree?
:franceflag:
Now if you are plowing streets/highways, I will agree with you or using it also carrying a very large salt box.


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Well my xls is just shy of 13’ so best of luck pushing that with your pickup truck.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Lol...









My 2021 Ram 4500 w/Metal Pless


My Trucktor is almost complete. Where it comes from.... My 2013 M110 Kubota was a bit too slow for my liking, so I set out to build up a truck to do what the tractor could do. Details: 14' Metal Pless live edge plow 120hp hydraulic power pack on the deck ( 42gpm at 3000rpm) 7' hydraulic...




www.plowsite.com


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Point taken lowblue:


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

AJ, That's not fair.

The guy with the raptor pushing a Wideout, better stop, this truck is incapable.




.

Or the running XLS/WO with 16ft backblades, they need to stop also!!!!


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rizzoa13 said:


> Well my xls is just shy of 13' so best of luck pushing that with your pickup truck.


Got a pic?


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Got a pic?


https://www.plowsite.com/threads/new-for-20-21-fischer.180484/


----------



## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Please disregard the autocorrect in the title, not one of my finer moments.


----------



## maxwell1027 (Feb 8, 2014)

Hydromaster said:


> Olddog and a few others are rather enthusiastic plow-jockeys.
> They tend to plow like their trucks and plows are disposable tools.
> Have you watched any of his vids.
> I've seen his GPS tracks and he's hit 60 miles an hour in a parking lot while plowing...
> ...


SPOT ON!


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Got a pic?


He posted one on here some place a week or 2 ago. It has additional wings added to it similar to the old danger wings.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> He posted one on here some place a week or 2 ago. It has additional wings added to it similar to the old danger wings.


You're an hour and a half late Handy Dandy Andy.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

LapeerLandscape said:


> He posted one on here some place a week or 2 ago. It has additional wings added to it similar to the old danger wings.


Good grief put down the Fireball and look at @Fourteen Contracting Inc. the next post...


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Good grief put down the Fireball and look at @Fourteen Contracting Inc. the next post...


I just wanted to add my 2 cents.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Good grief put down the Fireball and look at @Fourteen Contracting Inc. the next post...


And you're too slow as well.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You're an hour and a half late Handy Dandy RAndy.


You spelled my name wrong on purpose I'm sure.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> And you're too slow as well.


I didn't even get the alert like u.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I didn't even get the alert like u.


You should get on my alert list.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> You spelled my name wrong on purpose I'm sure.


Sure


----------



## Western1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Yes


----------



## Treeboy (Nov 8, 2017)

1olddogtwo said:


> In my humble opinion.
> 
> I believe I've always ran the best combination, a 250 or a 350 single wheel shortbed and a 11.5 Vee plow. With two, sometimes 3 100gal tanks for refueling.
> 
> ...


I am a fan of f550s but never drove one i have an fl60 freightliner. I didnt think they could push and turn with that big of a load. My f350 crew long bed could not turn that thing.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Wish I could figure out where my post is from several years back but it would take more time searching than typing.

When we put our second F800 together, it had a Blizzard 8611 and 10' POS Meyer/Swenson spreader with about a 4 ton capacity. Juice brakes, the ones @Randall Ave loves as much as a Furd 6.0. 2WD and a GVWR of 22k.

One of the first snowfalls after we had it together I plowed and salted with it. First lot was approximately 17,500 sq ft/.4 acre. Cut up with a bunch of peninsulas. A guy was plowing a bank 2 buildings down from me, with a pickup with front and back plows, he had already started by the time I arrived. I think I was done in about 20 minutes. Couple inches of snow if I remember right.

I plowed and salted and he was still plowing.

Next on my list was a shopping center, roughly 311,000 sq ft/7 acres. A bunch of islands by the building a few others scattered here and there but for the most part wide open. I was able to also plow that lot without any problems being a slightly larger truck with almost a full load of salt. I'm really don't remember exactly how long it took, but I think it was 3-4 hours, closer to 3. Plowing and salting.

So yes, depending on the setup, OVERALL a medium duty can be more versatile because if setup with not too long of a CA and a good steering angle, it will out turn a pickup as well as be able to push a metric poop tonne of snow because of the additional weight it can carry.

We had 2 F800's, both with Kummingses. One had a 22k GVWR, the other a 25,990 GVWR. Brakes worked great when not going out and needing $5k just for the rears. Parts were becoming next to impossible to find so we sent both of them down the road. But in the time we owned them, we may or may not have overloaded them on a regular basis without the problems we had when we may or may not have overloaded our old Dodge 350s and Furd 550's.

For obvious reasons, a 2WD medium duty with a 84" CA and 10' bed/spreader will out turn a 4WD 550/5500 with an 84" CA and 10' bed/spreader. GVWR is higher and all the components will be heavier duty, so longer lifespan.

I will never buy another medium duty with juice brakes.

So again, it all depends. Stuff like EWSPlow is doing, absolutely not. Or all small lots. But if you have a mixture of some smaller and medium/large lots and you're salting, yes, it is more versatile.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Wish I could figure out where my post is from several years back but it would take more time searching than typing.
> 
> When we put our second F800 together, it had a Blizzard 8611 and 10' POS Meyer/Swenson spreader with about a 4 ton capacity. Juice brakes, the ones @Randall Ave loves as much as a Furd 6.0. 2WD and a GVWR of 22k.
> 
> ...


Like I said before 80% or more is the operator and not just the truck.


----------



## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Like I said before 80% or more is the operator and not just the truck.


Ah.... Fact Check Please?


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Wish I could figure out where my post is from several years back but it would take more time searching than typing.
> 
> When we put our second F800 together, it had a Blizzard 8611 and 10' POS Meyer/Swenson spreader with about a 4 ton capacity. Juice brakes, the ones @Randall Ave loves as much as a Furd 6.0. 2WD and a GVWR of 22k.
> 
> ...


Since you mentioned me, I'll chime in.
I looked at the OP's original post. It does sound like he'd benefit from a medium duty truck. For reasons Mark mentioned and the fact that it sounds like something he could use year round. 
I plowed an industrial property for a few years where I wish I had a medium duty truck, skid steer, or loader. It was a 3 hour job with a pickup and v plow. There were also tight spots, so only having one plow on sight, unless it was an expandable pusher, the truck still made sense. 
The best investment I've made is the jeep, but it wouldn't be practical on any mid or large sized lots.
It will however run circles around any full size truck in many cases. 
Long story short, every piece of equipment has it's place.


----------



## CK82 (Sep 17, 2005)

We have quite a diverse fleet from 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton long bed, short beds, tractor with metal pless live edge, smaller sized wheel loader with metal pless live edge, skid loaders with snow tracks and pusher boxes, wheel loader with snow tires and arctic pusher, to Chevy C4500 11ft. bed/C5500 14ft. bed. Becoming a little more standardized would be ideal I'd say. For the typical landscaping company around us, both large and smaller, it seems most are quite diversified on how they push snow and apply salt.


----------



## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

EWSplow said:


> The best investment I've made is the jeep, but it wouldn't be practical on any mid or large sized lots.
> It will however run circles around any full size truck in many cases.


First place I started plowing at had wrangler with a 6.6 and a drag box...

Between loading docks and sidewalks that thing was worth its weight in gold


----------



## CK82 (Sep 17, 2005)

I would have to agree that my 3/4 ton double cab, short bed, gasser, definitely can't push as hard or as much as @1olddogtwo F350 diesel, or whatever he is plowing in. Nor can it push as hard or as much as a medium duty. It is very versitile however and efficient. Working along side a skid loader with a pusher box, or a wheel loader in a larger parking lot, I would say it is pretty efficient again, and much faster to stop, back up, and switch into drive back to plowing.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone most certainly.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

A pickup with a gasser won't push near as much as a diesel...the torque plus extra weight makes a huge difference.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

CK82 said:


> We have quite a diverse fleet from 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton long bed, short beds, tractor with metal pless live edge, smaller sized wheel loader with metal pless live edge, skid loaders with snow tracks and pusher boxes, wheel loader with snow tires and arctic pusher, to Chevy C4500 11ft. bed/C5500 14ft. bed. Becoming a little more standardized would be ideal I'd say. For the typical landscaping company around us, both large and smaller, it seems most are quite diversified on how they push snow and apply salt.


Not sure anyone has a completely standardized fleet, unless they're only doing driveways.

I have a handful of pickups/flatbed 2500's and a 350 with front and back plows. 2 5500's with V plows and spreaders. A derated 750 with a 22 year old 10' front plow and 20 year old Vbox. Sterling with 10' front plow, underbody and a Vbox. 2 tractors with front and back plows. Tractors with blowers. Loader with a pusher. Loader with a hydraulic wing plow. Skidsteer with a hydraulic wing plow. And then all the sidewalk equipment. A service truck with a spreader and straight blade. Couple box trucks. Pickup with a transfer tank.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

CK82 said:


> We have quite a diverse fleet from 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton long bed, short beds, tractor with metal pless live edge, smaller sized wheel loader with metal pless live edge, skid loaders with snow tracks and pusher boxes, wheel loader with snow tires and arctic pusher, to Chevy C4500 11ft. bed/C5500 14ft. bed. Becoming a little more standardized would be ideal I'd say. For the typical landscaping company around us, both large and smaller, it seems most are quite diversified on how they push snow and apply salt.





Philbilly2 said:


> First place I started plowing at had wrangler with a 6.6 and a drag box...
> 
> Between loading docks and sidewalks that thing was worth its weight in gold


It sounds like you need to add a jeep to your fleet.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not sure anyone has a completely standardized fleet, unless they're only doing driveways.
> 
> I have a handful of pickups/flatbed 2500's and a 350 with front and back plows. 2 5500's with V plows and spreaders. A derated 750 with a 22 year old 10' front plow and 20 year old Vbox. Sterling with 10' front plow, underbody and a Vbox. 2 tractors with front and back plows. Tractors with blowers. Loader with a pusher. Loader with a hydraulic wing plow. Skidsteer with a hydraulic wing plow. And then all the sidewalk equipment. A service truck with a spreader and straight blade. Couple box trucks. Pickup with a transfer tank.


That's some serious skin!!!


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> That's some serious skin!!!


This is a serious business.


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not sure anyone has a completely standardized fleet, unless they're only doing driveways.
> 
> I have a handful of pickups/flatbed 2500's and a 350 with front and back plows. 2 5500's with V plows and spreaders. A derated 750 with a 22 year old 10' front plow and 20 year old Vbox. Sterling with 10' front plow, underbody and a Vbox. 2 tractors with front and back plows. Tractors with blowers. Loader with a pusher. Loader with a hydraulic wing plow. Skidsteer with a hydraulic wing plow. And then all the sidewalk equipment. A service truck with a spreader and straight blade. Couple box trucks. Pickup with a transfer tank.


Sounds like you need a Ford with a Cummins in your fleet


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> That's some serious skin!!!


Not as serious as someone who bought 2 loaders this year...


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

1olddogtwo said:


> Sounds like you need a Ford with a Cummins in your fleet


Sounds like someone should drive theirs to Milwaukee tonight...


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I'm in Milwaukee.....


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

EWSplow said:


> Sounds like someone should drive theirs to Milwaukee tonight...


I'm working down here at the River One where where the explosion was a couple of weeks ago


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

1olddogtwo said:


> I'm working down here at the River One where where the explosion was a couple of weeks ago


I felt it at my house that morning, about a mile southeast.
They're keeping that kinda quiet. I know a project manager on part of it and he said nobody's saying anything.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

1olddogtwo said:


> I'm in Milwaukee.....


Bragging or complaining


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

1olddogtwo said:


> I'm in Milwaukee.....


If there's a blade on your truck, I'll be a nice guy and let you push some Wisconsin snow.


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> If there's a blade on your truck, I'll be a nice guy and let you push some Wisconsin snow.


You can at least have a beer and wings with him...... it's always a good time.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

The thought did cross my mind...


BUFF said:


> You can at least have a beer and wings with him...... it's always a good time.


----------



## TwiceStroked (Feb 8, 2010)

rizzoa13 said:


> Your brakes should have locked up on you and stopped the truck. A malfunction is a malfunction but by design that shouldn't have happened to you.
> 
> Air brakes make a truck more robust because they stop better than juice brakes. Its the reason heavier trucks don't even have a hydraulic brake option. If your vehicle isn't weighted beyond the capacity of your hydraulic brakes then great, good for you. My truck rolls down the street close to its 40,500# gvw when loaded with salt and I wouldn't even leave my house at that weight with juice brakes.
> 
> Ive never had to limp an air brake truck home because I haven't had a broken line. Haven't had a rusted out air tube either and I grease my brakes religiously so haven't had anything seize up on me and need replacing.


Although Ur concept 4 how air brakes work when a failure happens it doesn't work quite work like that.
Low speed air loss yes spring brakes come on, but add in speed, inclines and weight and they come on but just apply, apply is max but physics is in play.
As for never having a failure with air consider yourself either lucky or a newbie because as miles accumulate these systems will also fail, lines chafe, fittings rust, brake cans rust/fail.
If airleak occurs can the air compressor make MORE air than is escaping from leak? If it can than U can limp back 2 shop as long as dOt isn't around.
And it does happen even on DoT plow trucks.
Sorry 4 the long response


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

BUFF said:


> You can at least have a beer and wings with him...... it's always a good time.


And talk about the rest of us... Thumbs Up


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

LapeerLandscape said:


> And talk about the rest of us... Thumbs Up


Yes


----------

