# Season 2022-2023



## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

Ok fellas,

I’m starting to get hinting around about the cost for the upcoming season. Up to this point with all the summer accounts we have lost I can see winter the same. Any thoughts on how to handle the craziest costs We have ever seen? Rumor on playground salt is going to be 150 to 170 direct out of the port and fuel who knows?


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

Just make sure you have clauses in for rising fuel,salt,labour etc costs. It's not worth getting stuck in a contract and losing money on it due to rising costs that are way out of your control.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

DeVries said:


> Just make sure you have clauses in for rising fuel,salt,labour etc costs. It's not worth getting stuck in a contract and losing money on it due to rising costs that are way out of your control.


Excellent advice - with a fuel surcharge in play, when you raise your prices you just blame Putin for them. 

"That damned Putin raising my prices again! Grrr!!"


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

Fuel surcharges have been the reason I lost summer work. Karen’s calling yelling about $23 charges on month bill


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

So are you going up or holding pricing thsn using surcharge?


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

fireside said:


> Fuel surcharges have been the reason I lost summer work. Karen’s calling yelling about $23 charges on month bill


Are you using percent or flat rate for your surcharge?

If you cut karens lawn 4x in a month at $50/cut that would be about a 11-12% charge.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Saw a couple people axing on the Booko'Faces...one said 20%, another said 25% and yet another said 10% then said he was going to reevaluate. 

10% guy is a "competitor". His prices were getting close to what they should be a couple years ago then he dropped them...a bunch. 10% wouldn't even bring him back to where he was a couple years ago. 

If I so desired, I could make a bizness out of his disgruntled customers. 

I already have a clause for fuel over $4/gallon and price fluctuations of salt. Also had a customer ask if I wanted to bump up my prices this spring on a multi-year contract. While I appreciated his thoughtfulness, I suggested we wait to see what happened. At that time fuel and inflation were not higher than the peanut farmer's disaster and thought things might even come down by this fall, so I suggested we wait. 

Next round of invoices will have a surcharge even though I bumped prices up what I thought was fairly significantly this spring, but not enough to cover these asinine fuel prices. Really haven't thought about this winter yet.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

fireside said:


> Ok fellas,
> 
> I’m starting to get hinting around about cost for the upcoming season.Up to this point with all the summer accounts we have lost I can see winter the same. Any thoughts on how to handle the most crazy costs We have ever seen. Rumor on play ground salt is going to be 150 to 170 direct out of the port and fuel who knows.


On one of the Fakebook tractor forums there was **** chat of 20% increase in rates for resi service.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

Landgreen said:


> On one of the Fakebook tractor forums there was **** chat of 20% increase in rates for resi service.


C h i t chat.... censored? Lol


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

DeVries said:


> Just make sure you have clauses in for rising fuel,salt,labour etc costs. It's not worth getting stuck in a contract and losing money on it due to rising costs that are way out of your control.


Here, salt comes on freighters, and freighters run on diesel, so I can't imagine salt prices not going up.
I'm glad I'm out of the snow biz with all of the unknown variables.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Landgreen said:


> On one of the Fakebook tractor forums there was **** chat of 20% increase in rates for resi service.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Landgreen said:


> C h i t chat.... censored? Lol


I believe that it was being used in place of another prohibited word. I'm told that "shirt", "sit", "crap", "fudge", and "doodie" are all on the chopping block during the next upgrade.

Guess we are all royally **ed. Oh **_ I can't say _*. ** it.

Edit: Holy *. I swear I'm not making this up - four asterisks are now censored to one *.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Are you ****ting me?

That's pretty *******...red neck


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Are you sitting me?


I four-asterisks you not.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

See I live in ct. gas has been over 5 a gallon for weeks diesel has been hovering just at 6.23 a gallon. Not to mention taxes on property just went up another 1.5 mills. Simple mower is 65 to fill plus the truck fuel. So $60 lawn cut plus 6 dollar fuel surcharge is. It much. Still guy doing same lawn for $30. Big companies can charge what ever people pay.

So back to my original question thoughts are you guys going up on pricing or surcharges


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Yes


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

fireside said:


> See I live in ct. gas has been over 5 a gallon for weeks diesel has been hovering just at 6.23 a gallon. Not to mention taxes on property just went up another 1.5 mills. Simple mower is 65 to fill plus the truck fuel. So $60 lawn cut plus 6 dollar fuel surcharge is. It much. Still guy doing same lawn for $30. Big companies can charge what ever people pay.
> 
> So back to my original question thoughts are you guys going up on pricing or surcharges


Are there any other options? Besides a for sale sign in the shop window...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

fireside said:


> See I live in ct. gas has been over 5 a gallon for weeks diesel has been hovering just at 6.23 a gallon. Not to mention taxes on property just went up another 1.5 mills. Simple mower is 65 to fill plus the truck fuel. So $60 lawn cut plus 6 dollar fuel surcharge is. It much. Still guy doing same lawn for $30. Big companies can charge what ever people pay.
> 
> So back to my original question thoughts are you guys going up on pricing or surcharges


I’m not really a fan of the word “surcharge” or “fee”
I prefer to just raise my rates. In the past, we’ve stipulated in contracts that rise in material costs will have a direct correlation to deicing services. Fuel usually has held pretty steady in the winter because the only time people are traveling are thanksgiving and Christmas.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I’m not really a fan of the word “surcharge” or “fee”
> I prefer to just raise my rates. In the past, we’ve stipulated in contracts that rise in material costs will have a direct correlation to deicing services. Fuel usually has held pretty steady in the winter because the only time people are traveling are thanksgiving and Christmas.


Historically maybe, but gas prices consistently rose from July 2021 - April 2022.
If you base your contract on July gas prices, what makes you think you won't be paying more in January?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

I haven’t heard the details yet but I hear there is larger landscape yard in the Flint area that has a 16% loading fee, as opposed to what a shovel? We have had questions on the phone asking if we load and other weird questions but wow.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

EWSplow said:


> Historically maybe, but gas prices consistently rose from July 2021 - April 2022.
> If you base your contract on July gas prices, what makes you think you won't be paying more in January?


Less traveling after the holiday I’d imagine.


LapeerLandscape said:


> I haven’t heard the details yet but I hear there is larger landscape yard in the Flint area that has a 16% loading fee, as opposed to what a shovel? We have had questions on the phone asking if we load and other weird questions but wow.


Ran by a king?


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## magnatrac (Dec 22, 2006)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I haven’t heard the details yet but I hear there is larger landscape yard in the Flint area that has a 16% loading fee, as opposed to what a shovel? We have had questions on the phone asking if we load and other weird questions but wow.


Do they have rock bottom prices? Just asking for a friend, I don't buy landscape materials in flint.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So what happens if fuel or salt skyrockets in price during the middle of the winter? 

I see it as similar to a seasonal contract with a cap. I know my costs are going to be $X, based on an average season. And I'm willing to absorb even a little over average but extraordinarily over average needs to be recovered somehow. And to me it isn't fair to the customer to charge for that extraordinary overage just like it isn't fair to me that I don't charge enough to cover my costs.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So what happens if fuel or salt skyrockets in price during the middle of the winter?
> 
> I see it as similar to a seasonal contract with a cap. I know my costs are going to be $X, based on an average season. And I'm willing to absorb even a little over average but extraordinarily over average needs to be recovered somehow. And to me it isn't fair to the customer to charge for that extraordinary overage just like it isn't fair to me that I don't charge enough to cover my costs.


Every business owner is a greedy billionaire. You should just eat the additional costs to help out your customers.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

magnatrac said:


> Do they have rock bottom prices? Just asking for a friend, I don't buy landscape materials in flint.


Yes Rock Bottom pricing


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Less traveling after the holiday I’d imagine.
> 
> Ran by a king?


They have an empire for sure


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

prezek said:


> Every business owner is a greedy billionaire. You should just eat the additional costs to help out your customers.


We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So what happens if fuel or salt skyrockets in price during the middle of the winter?
> 
> I see it as similar to a seasonal contract with a cap. I know my costs are going to be $X, based on an average season. And I'm willing to absorb even a little over average but extraordinarily over average needs to be recovered somehow. And to me it isn't fair to the customer to charge for that extraordinary overage just like it isn't fair to me that I don't charge enough to cover my costs.


If fuel skyrockets higher than it is now, salt is going to go up as well, increase in material costs dictate higher prices


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> If fuel skyrockets higher than it is now, salt is going to go up as well, increase in material costs dictate higher prices


Everything from mining equipment to trucking runs on diesel.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Everything from mining equipment to trucking runs on diesel.


But not shipping...just ask Joe.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I’m not really a fan of the word “surcharge” or “fee”
> I prefer to just raise my rates. In the past, we’ve stipulated in contracts that rise in material costs will have a direct correlation to deicing services. Fuel usually has held pretty steady in the winter because the only time people are traveling are thanksgiving and Christmas.


Are you raising your mowing rates mid-season to cover cost of the recent fuel increases?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> But not shipping...just ask Joe.


I would get a better response from that empty bottle of vodka.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Landgreen said:


> Are you raising your mowing rates mid-season to cover cost of the recent fuel increases?


You guys should, I’m seriously thinking of raising my delivery pricing. For every 3 miles out i have to come 3 miles back and that’s a gallon of diesel or $6. plus dollars in the dump truck.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Landgreen said:


> Are you raising your mowing rates mid-season to cover cost of the recent fuel increases?


Raised them 12%, at the beginning, if it goes above 7 I’ll reconsider. But rec fuel is already above 6$ I’m not concerned about fuel, I’m concerned about quality labor, that scares me more than anything.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

New problem is year is drainage jobs. I gave a guy a price today on labor all supplies pricing is upon delivery. We have zero SDR pipe when you find it cost is 3.99 to 6.35 a foot. Stone pricing is quote for todsy tomorrow could be more..last job in two days supplies went up 523.15 in two days


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

Landgreen said:


> Are you raising your mowing rates mid-season to cover cost of the recent fuel increases?


If need be yes. Your in business to make money, not loose. If fuel goes up by a dollar a gallon you should be able to recover that cost, hence a clause in your contract. All in contracts I'm not a fan of, if we quote on them it's going to be worth our while, and I don't quote all in contracts multi year/season. To risky IMHO


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

fireside said:


> New problem is year is drainage jobs. I gave a guy a price today on labor all supplies pricing is upon delivery. We have zero SDR pipe when you find it cost is 3.99 to 6.35 a foot. Stone pricing is quote for todsy tomorrow could be more..last job in two days supplies went up 523.15 in two days


Not sure where you get your pipe from but check out frenchdrainman.com


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

DeVries said:


> If need be yes. Your in business to make money, not loose. If fuel goes up by a dollar a gallon you should be able to recover that cost, hence a clause in your contract. All in contracts I'm not a fan of, if we quote on them it's going to be worth our while, and I don't quote all in contracts multi year/season. To risky IMHO


I like the flexibility and ease of a fuel surcharge. I will be adding it to June billing. 

One of our HOA's is a three year agreement. Im at that age where I need to get a colonoscopy but I feel like Ive been getting one every month since April.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

For me I raised construction rates last fall. I raised again this spring for all new work. It wasn’t enough.

For snow, everything I have this year is new or just renewed. The new contracts mean new pricing. Some stuff I haven’t heard back on renewals yet. Some I’ll call on, others I won’t.

I’d rather lose money paying my guys to work on my house or the empire than lose my shirt pushing snow. Risks are high enough without losing $ going in.

Right now I’m on evaluation. Considering a fuel price cap, labor premium charge. Every company larger than me is complaining about no help-I have a full crew. I’m thankful for that.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Kvston said:


> For me I raised construction rates last fall. I raised again this spring for all new work. It wasn’t enough.
> 
> For snow, everything I have this year is new or just renewed. The new contracts mean new pricing. Some stuff I haven’t heard back on renewals yet. Some I’ll call on, others I won’t.
> 
> ...


I did the same on construction. 
On a job 35 miles from home, I've been tracking fuel costs. A week ago it was about $7/day more than in December. Not breaking the bank, but it is a real cost. 
Just got a text from a client who needs a roof. I don't do roofing, but I can't imagine asphalt shingles are cheap these days. She's having trouble finding a roofer, so asked if I could give her some phone numbers. 
I got a call from a friend who's nephew wants a basement build out, new kitchen cabinets and a bathroom remodel. I haven't seen the job, but a remodeling contractor told them $250K+ without looking at the job. They didn't even ask to see the job when they told them it was over their budget. 
We just did a basement build out for a little over $90K with cutting out concrete and plumbing under the slab and an egress window. 
They already have an egress window and plumbing under the floor roughed in. 
Its getting to the point where I think I'm leaving money on the table. 
I think in ongoing service, fuel caps and surcharges are necessary.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

EWSplow said:


> I did the same on construction.
> On a job 35 miles from home, I've been tracking fuel costs. A week ago it was about $7/day more than in December. Not breaking the bank, but it is a real cost.
> Just got a text from a client who needs a roof. I don't do roofing, but I can't imagine asphalt shingles are cheap these days. She's having trouble finding a roofer, so asked if I could give her some phone numbers.
> I got a call from a friend who's nephew wants a basement build out, new kitchen cabinets and a bathroom remodel. I haven't seen the job, but a remodeling contractor told them $250K+ without looking at the job. They didn't even ask to see the job when they told them it was over their budget.
> ...


Yeah some guys do blow the roof off pricing. I knew I was leaving $ on the table so I raised prices multiple times the last few years. I think I had them about right before the inflation and crap hit. Now I have to constantly go back and check things.

For now I’m happy meeting some deadlines. Slowly catching up from subs not showing. Roofers are short everywhere.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

solution example, my garbage contractor surcharges 2 gals of fuel on a bimonthly bill, so it varies with price of fuel, really not unreasonable for weekly collection service, most people should understand something like that over a basic bill increase mid contract


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