# Consultant Wanted



## seedsforsuccess

Hey Plowsite community members.

The See Forever Foundation (www.seeforever.org) is a non-profit organization which is looking for a snow plowing and ice management and/or lawn care and maintenance expert to consult with on a job creation and training program we are building for at risk students who attend our high school and young adult learning center in Washington, DC. This is an opportunity to help create future leaders within the industry and to help students develop professional job skills they need to build rewarding lives and promote positive change within their communities. It is not necessary to be local to DC. Most of the consulting could take place over the phone.

Please feel free to ask for more info via this thread or to email me personally at [email protected].


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## 1olddogtwo

Oh boy....this shall be interesting.


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## Broncslefty7

I nominate Mark for all his wits and wisdom. It should have something interesting to teach


Try this. Work hard, make decent decisions, and don't take free handouts.


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## FredG

1olddogtwo said:


> Oh boy....this shall be interesting.


  See Where it goes,,,,


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## Mike_PS

I suggest either offering assistance, advice or suggesting a consultant for them or moving along from the thread...seems like a legit question/request he is asking for so no need to ruin it with the jokes and uncalled for banter


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## leolkfrm

sounds like they are setting up a conservation program like at our local BOCES.....it is hard to find a well versed teacher and assistant for it


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## 1olddogtwo

Michael J. Donovan said:


> I suggest either offering assistance, advice or suggesting a consultant for them or moving along from the thread...seems like a legit question/request he is asking for so no need to ruin it with the jokes and uncalled for banter


I agree, very legitimate question/request.

We have some well versed characters who would make excellent consultants...... We also have some great Legends in their own minds that want to very helpful, and then you have some spectators like myself on the sideline still learning.


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## Broncslefty7

how old are the kids you are referring to? im sure some local companies would love the summer or winter help, we are always looking for new people with possible potential, the only problem i see here is the age. i know at least in Connecticut, an employee has to be at least 18 years of age to drive a company vehicle and at least 18 to be on a crew handling any construction tasks. it would be neat if you guys could set up like a summer program, kind of like camp but work! there is a place in southern California that is doing that. kids get out of school and start work the next day. they work for 6-8 weeks in the summer and then back to school. it keeps them busy and out of trouble. there is no better deterrent than hard work and a pay check at the end of the week.


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## Broncslefty7

Michael J. Donovan like this.

Thats a first


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## BUFF

Broncslefty7 said:


> how old are the kids you are referring to? im sure some local companies would love the summer or winter help, we are always looking for new people with possible potential, the only problem i see here is the age. i know at least in Connecticut, an employee has to be at least 18 years of age to drive a company vehicle and at least 18 to be on a crew handling any construction tasks. it would be neat if you guys could set up like a summer program, kind of like camp but work! there is a place in southern California that is doing that. kids get out of school and start work the next day. they work for 6-8 weeks in the summer and then back to school. it keeps them busy and out of trouble. there is no better deterrent than hard work and a pay check at the end of the week.


They're called internships or co-ops (usually 6months long), I've had both high school kids and college kids and have had high school kids come back while in college.

OP..... Besides a little banter from the riffraff another thing you find is being in the DC area I think you're going to find it hard to get a program going when your area has short seasons and low annual snowfall.
https://www.currentresults.com/Weat...nowfall-totals-snow-accumulation-averages.php

Hope I wrong since it sounds like a good program, good luck.Thumbs Up


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## fireside

That's such a broad out question to answer or consult on. Everyone runs there business different from equipment, products and service locations. A business that does malls only is far different of a operation of than residential only. But both can be very profitable. If the goal is the DC area find that guy in your service area. The program will be far more successfully. 

The advise offered will greatly change from service areas. Guy from Canada will tell you inverted blower and 100 hp tractor for residential but the guy from Maine it's a truck and V plow. Both operations remove the snow but that's where it stops in scales of operations. Somewhere that gets tons of snow have far different expections than the place that gets very little snow.

The great thing about working for educational training most osha laws are throw out!!! Kids can use and run all power tools, machines/ tractors dig holes even climb above 5' yup true with proper training. That's how all the trade schools work. My son is s freshman at a agricultural high school first thing they did was license all the kids to drive tractors and a skidsteer yup 13 year old with a tractor license. Now take the same kid 1/2 hour later pay them to do same job they just did at school it's a no go because of osha regs.


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## seedsforsuccess

fireside said:


> That's such a broad out question to answer or consult on. Everyone runs there business different from equipment, products and service locations. A business that does malls only is far different of a operation of than residential only. But both can be very profitable. If the goal is the DC area find that guy in your service area. The program will be far more successfully.
> 
> The advise offered will greatly change from service areas. Guy from Canada will tell you inverted blower and 100 hp tractor for residential but the guy from Maine it's a truck and V plow. Both operations remove the snow but that's where it stops in scales of operations. Somewhere that gets tons of snow have far different expections than the place that gets very little snow.
> 
> The great thing about working for educational training most osha laws are throw out!!! Kids can use and run all power tools, machines/ tractors dig holes even climb above 5' yup true with proper training. That's how all the trade schools work. My son is s freshman at a agricultural high school first thing they did was license all the kids to drive tractors and a skidsteer yup 13 year old with a tractor license. Now take the same kid 1/2 hour later pay them to do same job they just did at school it's a no go because of osha regs.





BUFF said:


> They're called internships or co-ops (usually 6months long), I've had both high school kids and college kids and have had high school kids come back while in college.
> 
> OP..... Besides a little banter from the riffraff another thing you find is being in the DC area I think you're going to find it hard to get a program going when your area has short seasons and low annual snowfall.
> https://www.currentresults.com/Weat...nowfall-totals-snow-accumulation-averages.php
> 
> Hope I wrong since it sounds like a good program, good luck.Thumbs Up


Thanks for your reply Fireside and Buff. Here's some info on the DC snow season. As you both mentioned, it is not very significant, which is why we plan to supplement it with a lawn care and maintenance program.

The official D.C. medial snowfall average (median average takes out outliers), based on averages spanning 1981-2010, is 11.7". In 2009-2010 we had an outlier year, and I believe the worst year on record, at 56.1". But then in 2011-2012 we only got 2". The most we've gotten in one day (modern) was 15" on December 19, 2009. About 75 percent of the city's snow tends to fall January through February, with over 60 percent of the cumulative total in that same range.

What kind of equipment would you have on hand for that kind of snowfall?
Also, Buff (or anyone really), any advice on employing under 18 pertaining to legal and/or insurance and/or operating heavy machinery?


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## seedsforsuccess

Michael J. Donovan said:


> I suggest either offering assistance, advice or suggesting a consultant for them or moving along from the thread...seems like a legit question/request he is asking for so no need to ruin it with the jokes and uncalled for banter


Thank you Michael.


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## Mark Oomkes

Broncslefty7 said:


> I nominate Mark for all his wits and wisdom.


Meh.......it's DC, the biggest thing wrong with this country right now. And far too many people.

OP, sounds like a great plan and I wish you luck. If you start something up in GR, let me know.


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## BUFF

seedsforsuccess said:


> What kind of equipment would you have on hand for that kind of snowfall?
> Also, Buff (or anyone really), any advice on employing under 18 pertaining to legal and/or insurance and/or operating heavy machinery?


Equipment needs are really based on the type of property being serviced, what I use for parking lots less than 2-3acres would greatly differ if I was plowing larger properties. So figure out the market you want to target (residential, small commercial, large commercial, etc..) then you'll get feedback regarding equipment.

It'd be best to start with brushing up on labor laws and also talk to your insurance agent.


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## Broncslefty7

we actually have a kid here that attends a technical school that comes in either in the afternoon for a few hours or on the weekends to do maintenance on Blowers/Plows/oil changes on trucks/ and touch up paint.

hes pretty good and i guess based off of his pay stub he is getting some type of credits for school.


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## Philbilly2

When I got into the union, I was only 17 and still had not finished high school just yet. Apprentice coordinator pulled me aside and said that even though I was in and had been working doing the trade all this time, from the union end, I could not start logging hours till I turned 18... 

Yet we had a work co-op program at my high school at that time that I was in so I am sure that DOL new what I was doing.


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## seedsforsuccess

BUFF said:


> Equipment needs are really based on the type of property being serviced, what I use for parking lots less than 2-3acres would greatly differ if I was plowing larger properties. So figure out the market you want to target (residential, small commercial, large commercial, etc..) then you'll get feedback regarding equipment.
> 
> It'd be best to start with brushing up on labor laws and also talk to your insurance agent.


The biggest properties being served are going to be other charter school parking lots and walk ways. These are going to be up to 5 acres maybe for the biggest. Most jobs are going to be residential though, which in DC equals mostly well shy of one acre. Our young adults shouldn't be afraid of a little work and they have no experience so smaller equipment may be a better starting off option. We'll have an adult crew chief if heavier equipment on bigger jobs is necessary but on smaller jobs, maybe a truck mounted plow or skid steer isn't.

Thanks again for everyone's help. This is a going to be a great program for our youngsters and your input really does make a difference.


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## Philbilly2

I would start by checking into insurance before you take any more steps what so ever.

I cannot see how a co-op would be able to absorb that cost?


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## BUFF

seedsforsuccess said:


> The biggest properties being served are going to be other charter school parking lots and walk ways. These are going to be up to 5 acres maybe for the biggest. Most jobs are going to be residential though, which in DC equals mostly well shy of one acre. Our young adults shouldn't be afraid of a little work and they have no experience so smaller equipment may be a better starting off option. We'll have an adult crew chief if heavier equipment on bigger jobs is necessary but on smaller jobs, maybe a truck mounted plow or skid steer isn't.
> 
> Thanks again for everyone's help. This is a going to be a great program for our youngsters and your input really does make a difference.


Is the acreage you're referring to the physical size of the property or the size of what is to be plowed? 
I have a hard time seeing a residence (single family home) having 1acre to be plowed.


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## Mark Oomkes

BUFF said:


> Is the acreage you're referring to the physical size of the property or the size of what is to be plowed?
> I have a hard time seeing a residence (single family home) having 1acre to be plowed.


Or more than maybe a couple thousand square feet in an area like DC.


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## seedsforsuccess

BUFF said:


> Is the acreage you're referring to the physical size of the property or the size of what is to be plowed?
> I have a hard time seeing a residence (single family home) having 1acre to be plowed.


Buff, you are correct and I should have been more specific than "well shy of 1 acre." Residential is tiny around here. Likely just walkways and sidewalks in the city and small driveways (20'?) further outside. Parking lots on schools is up to up to 20000 sq. ft. plus assorted walkways and sidewalks. How much strict measuring are you doing vs. estimating when you price out a job? Is it a science or an art? Are you more estimating the time it will take to plow as opposed to the land area?


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## Mark Oomkes

http://www.findlotsize.com/ is your friend.

I like to measure parking lots using the above...driveways I don't bother. Sidewalks I have a minimum charge so I do measure linear foot.

I will never give an estimate for a parking lot without physically looking at it. And usually by looking at it I can give a price that it is accurate within a few minutes either way for a "normal" snowfall. Problem is, that can't be taught, so you need to start developing production rates and using those. And I do for salting, but not for plowing.

My problem with using industry production rates is most competitors around me don't care. I've priced stuff using industry standards and not been awarded the contract because it is insanely high. And in reality, some of the industry standards are pretty low i.e. 8' straight plow on a pickup can do 1 acre per hour. Granted, it depends on obstructions and layout this can be high or low, but for me and my company it is low. It is really low using the plows we do. If someone can't do a complicated acre in an hour after 2-3 times out plowing, you're probably not going to last.

The biggest issue is training someone to plow. Once the snow falls and it's dark, everything looks different. No matter how often you go over a lot with someone and even if you have maps of where the snow is to be piled, it still takes some time to get efficient. It's something that just can't be trained for completely. And there are people that have a knack for it and can pick it up after a night or two and others that will never understand moving snow efficiently to the correct place.


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## Randall Ave

Estimating any job, in most any service related work, is science, art, and experience.


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## JMHConstruction

This is what I give all the 18 year olds I hire.







They on occasion will come back after one storm, that is if I can get them to answer the phone at 3am.

I think what you're doing is great, but I gave up on my generation a long time ago.

Are you planning on doing this like a "real" snow and ice management company, or is this only going to be during the hours of the program? Anyone can push a shovel or drop a plow, but it takes real commitment to actually do this line of work. I see a few issues using minors, but not sure how it works with a program like this. Here are a few.
1. A good majority of the work is done at night, while vehicles are gone. Can't work minors past a certain time.
2. LONG hours. I have worked well over 24 hours straight numerous times. Minors laws have pretty strict rules about not over working.
3. Flat out showing up in freezing temperatures.
4. Holidays, we don't get them off if the weather decides she's more important than family
5. Insurance. Already covered by others about minors using commercial equipment. Your agent is going to brown their undies when they find out you need to cover underaged teens to use mowing and snow equipment. I guess high schools have shop class though, so a mower blade and table saw can't be that different to insure. Maybe for what you're doing it won't be too bad.

I could go on and on. I really like of idea of what you're doing. Getting kids off the streets, or out from in front of a tv is great, I'm just concerned about how it will work out. I don't feel like I could bring enough to the table to be a consultant, but I hope people sign up. If you have already worked though some of my concerns, let me know. I hope everything can work out.


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## BUFF

[/QUOTE]


seedsforsuccess said:


> Buff, you are correct and I should have been more specific than "well shy of 1 acre." Residential is tiny around here. Likely just walkways and sidewalks in the city and small driveways (20'?) further outside. Parking lots on schools is up to up to 20000 sq. ft. plus assorted walkways and sidewalks. How much strict measuring are you doing vs. estimating when you price out a job? Is it a science or an art? Are you more estimating the time it will take to plow as opposed to the land area?


From what you described a 8/10' expandable plow on a 4X4 3/4 or 1ton pickup with a small V box spreader would be my choice. You can shovel walks faster with a good shovel when the snow is 4" and under than you can clear with a snow blower.

I quote mulch like my "halo" wearing colleague does and do use Find Lot Size for getting an idea of space, obstructions and places to stack snow. The biggest tool used is understanding the productivity of you equipment. The only way to gain this knowledge is spending countless hrs going forward and reverse in a rig in the middle of the night along with shoveling miles and miles of walks in varying weather conditions. In addition knowing what the market will bare really dictates the quote and in a lot of cases its less than you would go in at. This is when you start to ponder why am I doing this......



Mark Oomkes said:


> http://www.findlotsize.com/ is your friend.
> 
> I like to measure parking lots using the above...driveways I don't bother. Sidewalks I have a minimum charge so I do measure linear foot.
> 
> I will never give an estimate for a parking lot without physically looking at it. And usually by looking at it I can give a price that it is accurate within a few minutes either way for a "normal" snowfall. Problem is, that can't be taught, so you need to start developing production rates and using those. And I do for salting, but not for plowing.
> 
> My problem with using industry production rates is most competitors around me don't care. I've priced stuff using industry standards and not been awarded the contract because it is insanely high. And in reality, some of the industry standards are pretty low i.e. 8' straight plow on a pickup can do 1 acre per hour. Granted, it depends on obstructions and layout this can be high or low, but for me and my company it is low. It is really low using the plows we do. If someone can't do a complicated acre in an hour after 2-3 times out plowing, you're probably not going to last.
> 
> The biggest issue is training someone to plow. Once the snow falls and it's dark, everything looks different. No matter how often you go over a lot with someone and even if you have maps of where the snow is to be piled, it still takes some time to get efficient. It's something that just can't be trained for completely. And there are people that have a knack for it and can pick it up after a night or two and others that will never understand moving snow efficiently to the correct place.


Yes........ I could have said better but nice job sport.Thumbs Up


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## Mark Oomkes

JMHConstruction said:


> Are you planning on doing this like a "real" snow and ice management company, or is this only going to be during the hours of the program? Anyone can push a shovel or drop a plow, but it takes real commitment to actually do this line of work. I see a few issues using minors, but not sure how it works with a program like this. Here are a few.
> 1. A good majority of the work is done at night, while vehicles are gone. Can't work minors past a certain time.
> 2. LONG hours. I have worked well over 24 hours straight numerous times. Minors laws have pretty strict rules about not over working.
> 3. Flat out showing up in freezing temperatures.
> 4. Holidays, we don't get them off if the weather decides she's more important than family
> 5. Insurance. Already covered by others about minors using commercial equipment. Your agent is going to brown their undies when they find out you need to cover underaged teens to use mowing and snow equipment. I guess high schools have shop class though, so a mower blade and table saw can't be that different to insure. Maybe for what you're doing it won't be too bad.


Thinking about the votech school in my county, underage students run commercial equipment all the time...mowers, dozers, loaders, semis, body shop tools, lifts for vehicles they are working on, etc. I'm guessing as someone stated there are probably some allowances for these types of programs for insurance and labor laws.

Although, it is DC, where most of these BS laws and regulations originate.

seeds (almost scary typing that), while a good many of us are willing to help as much as we can via the interweb, I'm sure you were thinking more along the lines of having someone there in person. I would recommend getting in touch with Martin Tirado, director of SIMA. It might be something they are willing to sponsor or partner with you on. If you get it to work, it might even go regional or national. Or maybe Brian Birch.

http://www.sima.org/contactus

Emails are on that page. I've said negative things about them, but overall it is a good organization that could probably provide better help than over the interweb. Having said that, don't disappear, there's a lot of good people with a lot of experience here at PS that can help.


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## seedsforsuccess

JMHConstruction said:


> This is what I give all the 18 year olds I hire.
> View attachment 172759
> They on occasion will come back after one storm, that is if I can get them to answer the phone at 3am.
> 
> I think what you're doing is great, but I gave up on my generation a long time ago.
> 
> Are you planning on doing this like a "real" snow and ice management company, or is this only going to be during the hours of the program? Anyone can push a shovel or drop a plow, but it takes real commitment to actually do this line of work. I see a few issues using minors, but not sure how it works with a program like this. Here are a few.
> 1. A good majority of the work is done at night, while vehicles are gone. Can't work minors past a certain time.
> 2. LONG hours. I have worked well over 24 hours straight numerous times. Minors laws have pretty strict rules about not over working.
> 3. Flat out showing up in freezing temperatures.
> 4. Holidays, we don't get them off if the weather decides she's more important than family
> 5. Insurance. Already covered by others about minors using commercial equipment. Your agent is going to brown their undies when they find out you need to cover underaged teens to use mowing and snow equipment. I guess high schools have shop class though, so a mower blade and table saw can't be that different to insure. Maybe for what you're doing it won't be too bad.
> 
> I could go on and on. I really like of idea of what you're doing. Getting kids off the streets, or out from in front of a tv is great, I'm just concerned about how it will work out. I don't feel like I could bring enough to the table to be a consultant, but I hope people sign up. If you have already worked though some of my concerns, let me know. I hope everything can work out.


Thanks for your thoughtful reply JMH. We are planning to do this like a "real company." I share your concerns for our generation in general and the program challenges in particular but despite the reality of them, it's a goal I am committed to working towards. As far as our students (all 18 and up I've decided, at least to start) showing up and putting in the work goes, I very much have a support and mentor as much as possible but ultimately you sink or swim on your own philosophy towards leadership. Those who embrace this opportunity will reap the benefits and for those who don't there's a lot to learn in failure.

Still researching the insurance. Any agencies you gentleman would suggest I contact?


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## Philbilly2

seedsforsuccess said:


> Thanks for your thoughtful reply JMH. We are planning to do this like a "real company." I share your concerns for our generation in general and the program challenges in particular but despite the reality of them, it's a goal I am committed to working towards. As far as our students (all 18 and up I've decided, at least to start) showing up and putting in the work goes, I very much have a support and mentor as much as possible but ultimately you sink or swim on your own philosophy towards leadership. Those who embrace this opportunity will reap the benefits and for those who don't there's a lot to learn in failure.
> 
> Still researching the insurance. Any agencies you gentleman would suggest I contact?


I would start with the schools current carrier. Hopefully you can bundle?

How much revenue do you predict this adventure with gross?


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## seedsforsuccess

Philbilly2 said:


> I would start with the schools current carrier. Hopefully you can bundle?
> 
> How much revenue do you predict this adventure with gross?


Our board had a pro-forma made before I was hired and it predicted just under $150,000 in revenue for the first year. Keep in mind that is for year round services including landscaping and junk hauling on top of the snow and ice management. Seems optimistic to me but doable.


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## BUFF

seedsforsuccess said:


> Our board had a pro-forma made before I was hired and it predicted just under $150,000 in revenue for the first year. Keep in mind that is for year round services including landscaping and junk hauling on top of the snow and ice management. Seems optimistic to me but doable.


 I see $150K for the 1st year of a start up a pretty lofty task when you consider starting out without a customer base.


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## Broncslefty7

is this starting to seam more and more like this is a start up company looking for a way to get free or really cheap help? pricing questions, revenue questions? this is seaming less and less like your looking for consultants for a pro bono service experience for kids, and more like a consultant to help you start your business...


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## Mark Oomkes

http://www.seeforever.org/yalc-announces-seeds-for-success-program/

Plenty of links....I'll take his/her word for it until proven otherwise.


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## seedsforsuccess

Broncslefty7 said:


> is this starting to seam more and more like this is a start up company looking for a way to get free or really cheap help? pricing questions, revenue questions? this is seaming less and less like your looking for consultants for a pro bono service experience for kids, and more like a consultant to help you start your business...


I understand the skepticism. However, the point of the business is to educate, empower, and employ. Any profit we make, if any, will go back into hiring more students. By the way, we plan to pay above minimum wage to student employees as well.


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## fireside

I have a question with a projected revenue of 150k what formula was used to get that number with such low snowfall? How are you planning on getting all the equipment to bring in that type of revenue. Your startup cost will well exceed that. A basic pickup plow and sander are 50k easily not to mention the equipment skidloader /loader. Snow removal is a huge logistical nightmare at times. One I have learned over the 30 years doing it. Think about this you need a Salt pile bulk,ice melt,spreaders, gas,fuel for equipment the list goes on and on. Who is going to fix all the stuff when it breaks at 3am. I'm not even going to mention damage to property's but it will be quite a large cost in your operational plan. I truly think the concept is great putting youth to work but snow is a 24/7 operation with no excuses for not getting it done right the first time.

How do you plan on running the show if the students don't show up? One team leader per crew will never be able to teach and get the job done and make it safe. I do think landscaping is service that can be done but snow service you need to di much more research before going any far!


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## Philbilly2

fireside said:


> I have a question with a projected revenue of 150k what formula was used to get that number with such low snowfall? How are you planning on getting all the equipment to bring in that type of revenue. Your startup cost will well exceed that. A basic pickup plow and sander are 50k easily not to mention the equipment skidloader /loader. Snow removal is a huge logistical nightmare at times. One I have learned over the 30 years doing it. Think about this you need a Salt pile bulk,ice melt,spreaders, gas,fuel for equipment the list goes on and on. Who is going to fix all the stuff when it breaks at 3am. I'm not even going to mention damage to property's but it will be quite a large cost in your operational plan. I truly think the concept is great putting youth to work but snow is a 24/7 operation with no excuses for not getting it done right the first time.


Well said sir... well said.


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## FredG

BUFF said:


> I see $150K for the 1st year of a start up a pretty lofty task when you consider starting out without a customer base.


Fosho


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## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> Well said sir... well said.


This!!


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