# Frustrated!



## kolkie05 (Jul 23, 2009)

Guy's,

I've now run into the second situation this year where guy's are coming in under bidding like you wouldn't believe!:realmad:

This is my second condo building where I thought we were giving a good price for lot cleanup, salt, and walks. The president calls me today and said that a guy came to them willing to do the whole thing for $200 a snow event (not including salt)!!

Like I said this is the second time this season this has happend. Is anyone else noticing guy's doing work for next to nothing?


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## towpro570 (Jul 23, 2009)

times are tuff so people will do what they have to just to pay the bills and not come up any richer and still glad to work


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## GPS (Jun 27, 2008)

Yup. This winter is going to have every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there putting a plow on their truck thinking they're going to make a killing all winter. 90% won't have any commercial or liability insurance, allowing them to work for much less than an actual business. Blame this wonderful economy.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

The trick is to not back down - you'll need nerves of steel, though. They might be bluffing. Even if they're not; Once they get you to lower your price, they'll never stop playing you. Why work just to have work? Leave the crap for the other guy.

They told the other guy (if there is one) the same thing.

Been there, done that. When he told me "the other guy didn't how up", I told him "Not interested any more". Maybe taught him a lesson?


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

i bid 15k for a seasonal job, went for 9k.......just one example.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

kolkie05;797036 said:


> Guy's,
> 
> I've now run into the second situation this year where guy's are coming in under bidding like you wouldn't believe!:realmad:
> 
> ...


Ask him if he has seen their business license, certificate of insurance (you should include on in every bid) or references list. Tell them you would be glad to provide service if they change their mind as long has you still have time in your schedule. They could need you after the competition finds out he is working for a loss and stops showing up. Or it could be he plans to rape them on the salt.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

Longae29;797148 said:


> i bid 15k for a seasonal job, went for 9k.......just one example.


was is it a condo or a parking lot and if so how many acres was it? Just wondering.


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## kolkie05 (Jul 23, 2009)

I love this site it's a great place to vent and get good info! Thanks guys!

The problem is I know this guy is not pulling a fast one. The last condo assc it was just plowing a small lot maybe 50x100 and the guy gave them a seasonal rate of $1700 for 5 months! With at least 15 snow events that's like charging $100 no matter what the amount of snowfall. It cost that much just to put gas and drive up there..lol


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Mick;797074 said:


> The trick is to not back down - you'll need nerves of steel, though. They might be bluffing. Even if they're not; Once they get you to lower your price, they'll never stop playing you. Why work just to have work? Leave the crap for the other guy.
> 
> They told the other guy (if there is one) the same thing.
> 
> Been there, done that. When he told me "the other guy didn't how up", I told him "Not interested any more". Maybe taught him a lesson?


Now that is the truth:salute:


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Burkartsplow;797227 said:


> was is it a condo or a parking lot and if so how many acres was it? Just wondering.


parking lot, 45600 ft2. medical building, so 0 tolerance


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

In Ottawa, there are some lowballers like that, BUT being the capital city its very politically correct, so lowballers don't last long. LOL


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

it's only going to get worse before it gets better. people are desperate, cant blaim them i guess, you gotta do what you gotta do to survive, ive sort of accepted that fact


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

redman6565;797540 said:


> it's only going to get worse before it gets better. people are desperate, cant blaim them i guess, you gotta do what you gotta do to survive, ive sort of accepted that fact


thats why its important to strengthen existing relationships, and contact as many people as possible to build new ones.


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## kolkie05 (Jul 23, 2009)

I could use the extra cash like the next guy is it worth it to lower my prices to compete with these guys?


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

that doesnt even justify a response


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

why would you work for a loss?


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

kolkie05;797783 said:


> I could use the extra cash like the next guy is it worth it to lower my prices to compete with these guys?


listen, the economy sucks and everyone could use the extra dough. if you can plow it for cheaper then do so, if you can't then don't. Hell there are a lot of lots around here i would love to have but i can't be the low bidder on all of them. It's not about lowballing or over pricing anymore, if you can logically say you're covering your costs and you're a legitimate company (has insurance and a payroll, not cash) then go for it, somebody has to be the lowest bid, ya know?


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

it's all about what you can live with. some lots i have to cover costs and fill a route (they tend to be the small 100k SF lots but still) and others is where i make all my money. it's all about your mind set and knowing your costs. when you can figure out what your bottom line is, is when you start tinkering with profit percentages and then the overall factor of, how bad do you want the work. personally i have equipment loans on a few pieces so i still have to be aggressive because i know i need x amount of dollars per winter season to pay my taxes, loan payments, business insurance and whatever my repairs might be before i even consider the costs of an individual lot.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

:realmad:
Some of these low ballers .... you KNOW they will not show up to provide the service. Will spread the salt thin, will cause damage, probably have no insurance. etc. etc.

I've seen bids come in that there is just no way they are even covering their cost. Simply put the get-rich and mount a plow crowd is alive and active. If these low ballers would sit down and calculate their expenses to what they may make they would just stay home.

For me I'm sick of hearing ... were waiting for a few quotes but, those 'companies' just aren't getting back to us. No Duh!


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

definately but that's the thing, if everyone is calculating their costs, then it's just a matter of what proft margin are you willing to work for.

i hear ya. i get under bid by 20-30% on 40k/year jobs. what are you going to do? i can;t plow it for that much, so i tip my cap and take notes, cause either they know something i don't or we aren't offering the same services and that's how i attack my marketing when i go after lots.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Bidding is a tough game. How bad do I need the work? Can the customer afford my current rates? Is it next to another lot? Do I have to keep my guys busy? All of which can effect the price.

I'm actually waiting for a large bid to come out in a couple weeks and bid on that before commit to other smaller/residentional drives. It is a gamble for me because I might not get the large bid and then it might be too late to get other jobs lined up.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

QuadPlower;797933 said:


> I'm actually waiting for a large bid to come out in a couple weeks and bid on that before commit to other smaller/residentional drives. It is a gamble for me because I might not get the large bid and then it might be too late to get other jobs lined up.


That's such a fun game to play. "well lets wait on those little ones, see what else we can get signed up" then if/when that big one doesnt come in, you wish you had locked in the little guys.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Problem is, if I get all the residentials AND the big one, I will not be able to handle both. I pride myself of providing quality service. Can't do that if you are stretched too thin.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

QuadPlower;797943 said:


> Problem is, if I get all the residentials AND the big one, I will not be able to handle both. I pride myself of providing quality service. Can't do that if you are stretched too thin.


Quad,

Just sub out the resi if you get the big one..... I'd cover my butt and bid on everything I could......


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## kolkie05 (Jul 23, 2009)

This year I'm just trying to throw enough crap at the wall and hope something sticks! Except all these low ballers are starting to kill that idea..lol

By the way I just ordered some door hangers from 3000doorhangers.com they actually came out nice and only cost $179. Just fyi for any guys looking at marketing residential.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

We did the door hangers.... It was work to hand them out but, did get calls from it.

As for bidding I just heard from one of my prospects they have gotten 45 quotes so far. 45 and they are still waiting on more. Why are they waiting ... because some of the "companies" have not responded in two weeks with their quote. 

Quotes are all over the board and I just let them know .... Have fun - I'm sure those guys who have not responded will be even better when it snows


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

sure they need every last quote so that they can queeze every last penny they can.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

redman6565;798121 said:


> sure they need every last quote so that they can queeze every last penny they can.


Yeah but, isn't it funny how they want the lowest bid but, fully expect this highest level of service. This winter will be notably worse than last years and salt is not cheap, equipment costs are up, staff wants money, taxes are up and yet we are going to work harder for less. There will come a time soon when the pendulum will swing to far and either break off or come crashing back into reality land.

I would love to be at some of these sites that accept the low ball when their plowers either doesn't show up or causes a ton of damage. Yup, how's that working for ya now.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

as you hsould be. i took over the snowplow operation at this company back in 2004. since then, i've lost just one lot and have gained 14 (i've gotten lucky though) but don't think i don't eyeball that lot i lost and take pictures and notes. they even had the nerve the next year to walk across the street and ask if i could help out when we got bombarded with 15" of snow in a couple hour span.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

redman6565;798157 said:


> as you hsould be. i took over the snowplow operation at this company back in 2004. since then, i've lost just one lot and have gained 14 (i've gotten lucky though) but don't think i don't eyeball that lot i lost and take pictures and notes. they even had the nerve the next year to walk across the street and ask if i could help out when we got bombarded with 15" of snow in a couple hour span.


You always watch "the one that got away". I did that last year and my wife was like, "just let it go". I couldn't and now it is being rebid and hopefully I will get it back. (at my price)


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## kolkie05 (Jul 23, 2009)

The funny thing is you can see when someone got a low bid. I'll be driving home after a night of plowing and still see locations that haven't got plowed yet..lol


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

that's all you can do.


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## wizardsr (Aug 8, 2006)

There will always be accounts that go for the lowest bidder every time. I've run into many of them. These companies that always go with the low bid are those that usually have someone in a corporate office making the decisions, and dont give a rats rear what the people on site think, they only look at the bottom line. They're usually pretty obvious because they ask for bids every year, never give you a second look, wont return follow-up phone calls, and are always the first to complain about the crummy service they get. The sooner you identify who these customers are, the sooner you'll learn to avoid them and not waste your time. I ALWAYS emphasize quality of service over low price. A customer who is motivated only by price, is a customer I dont want. 

There will always be "beer money plowers" or guys who just want the work at any price, because they dont understand their costs, and figure they must be doing something right if they're always busy. It's quite frustrating to work in an area with a fair share of these guys because I always have to fight to get the customer to understand the difference in the quality of service they'll get. Seems like simple logic, you get what you pay for, but one needs to look no further than our last election results to see that the "majority" of this country consists of people who dont think logically...

This is as much a customer problem as it is a low-baller problem, and it will never go away, we just need to learn to work around it. As they say, it is what it is...


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Beer-Money-Plower.... I like it.


I think I might use that on my next quote as a tag line. I wonder if it will show well on the napkin I write the price on. Doesn't matter as there will be stains from my nachos on the quote too


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## kolkie05 (Jul 23, 2009)

"Doesn't matter as there will be stains from my nachos on the quote too "

lol...=)


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

One of the smartest things I did was get my schools to move to a three year bid/contract. This will be season two. I'm sure if they went out to bid, prices would be down. My contact over there loves me, and the job I do. I mentioned adding two more years on after this season at the existing annual increase, he wants to do it. Hopefully the board will agree. 

And you have to keep the relationships going. Last thing you want is a gravy account thinking about getting bids. I have one customer already making payments for this coming season, and the owner of the **** asked me this morning if I'm ready to go. She's interested in a seasonal price too.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

thats the way to go...multi-year deals


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## TrevorsLawnCare (Dec 4, 2008)

*Corporate Guy Who Agrees*



wizardsr;798368 said:


> There will always be accounts that go for the lowest bidder every time. I've run into many of them. These companies that always go with the low bid are those that usually have someone in a corporate office making the decisions, and dont give a rats rear what the people on site think, they only look at the bottom line. They're usually pretty obvious because they ask for bids every year, never give you a second look, wont return follow-up phone calls, and are always the first to complain about the crummy service they get. The sooner you identify who these customers are, the sooner you'll learn to avoid them and not waste your time. I ALWAYS emphasize quality of service over low price. A customer who is motivated only by price, is a customer I dont want.
> 
> There will always be "beer money plowers" or guys who just want the work at any price, because they dont understand their costs, and figure they must be doing something right if they're always busy. It's quite frustrating to work in an area with a fair share of these guys because I always have to fight to get the customer to understand the difference in the quality of service they'll get. Seems like simple logic, you get what you pay for, but one needs to look no further than our last election results to see that the "majority" of this country consists of people who dont think logically...
> 
> This is as much a customer problem as it is a low-baller problem, and it will never go away, we just need to learn to work around it. As they say, it is what it is...


Wizard,

You are correct. I am one of the corporate guys looking to fill out snow and ice management needs for this coming season. It has been a cat and mouse game around here with bosses wanting the cheapest rates. We are a transportation company and poor service costs us money. Stuck trucks mean lower customer service and lost revenues. We have come to an understanding around here that the lowest cost can often cost more money than savings.

For lawn, it is a different story. Cheap lawn cutting does not have an effect on our operations, so we do go with the cheapest bid. We also make it very clear that the lowest bid wins.

Now, with the above being said, if I did not have a background in lawns and snow removal (LCO for 5 years) I would have followed instructions and went with the cheapest bid for snow. This is my first year handling snow for this company and everyone warned me against taking on the task. It seems to be a "kiss of death" type position - everyone gets burned out from dealing with angry people because someone didn't show up, or trucks got stuck, etc...

The reason I am opening up bidding this season is because I do not just want to automatically use the guys that were in place from last season. They may have done a good job (if this is the case the terminal manager will let me know), but I don't want to take the easy way out and simply shoe in the guy who did it last season. I would rather go through the tedious bidding process and establish a bit of a relationship with the guys I will be hiring. That way I can be TOTALLY responsible for any screw-ups, no-shows, etc...Its kind of like having "my team" in place.

If anyone is interested in bidding any of the work that I have available visit this thread: http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=83550 for a complete list of locations.

Thanks,

Trevor


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

TrevorsLawnCare;799366 said:


> ...The reason I am opening up bidding this season is because I do not just want to automatically use the guys that were in place from last season. They may have done a good job (if this is the case the terminal manager will let me know), but I don't want to take the easy way out and simply shoe in the guy who did it last season. I would rather go through the tedious bidding process and establish a bit of a relationship with the guys I will be hiring. That way I can be TOTALLY responsible for any screw-ups, no-shows, etc...Its kind of like having "my team" in place.


If I was that "last season"'s guy, I'd be pretty ticked. I wouldn't try for it and go for someone who'd show more loyalty and appreciation for good work. Some else can play this game.


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## TrevorsLawnCare (Dec 4, 2008)

Mick;799391 said:


> If I was that "last season"'s guy, I'd be pretty ticked. I wouldn't try for it and go for someone who'd show more loyalty and appreciation for good work. Some else can play this game.


You got a point, but if last years vendor did a good job and provided service that the TM was happy with, that is taken into consideration. Getting emotionally attached and feeling "ticked" isn't going to get you very far in this business. You'll spend more of your time pissed off, when you could be focusing that energy on expansion.

Trevor


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I only stay ticked until I find a replacement. It's happened and always seems to work out, with a better account. Last time, I "lost" a private road I'd done for years to a new guy who "gave them too good of a deal to pass up". Got another one for twice the money, half the distance, fewer hills and curves and no time it needed to be done. Previous customer asked if I was interested in coming back. Sorry - no.

Think a minute before letting a good thing get away.


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## TJSNOW (Jul 26, 2009)

I like the comment..Throw enough crap at the wall and see what sticks..I lost one today..2 acres fairly easy plow...it went for $120 a push...That one bugged me half the day...But i guess i will keep throwing crap at the wall and see what sticks


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

When ever owners, management, controllers, purchasing officers and the like change I never assume the relationship I had built with them stands for anything. As long as it isn't nepotism of favoritism that has me looking for work elsewhere. I take no offense and look at it as an opportunity to build mutually beneficial work relationships with someone else. Unfortunately many of these people that hire your services are not there to make friends but there to make or save money for their employer. 

Good luck Trevor.


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