# Subs...how are you paying them and accounting for their time?



## jkski (Dec 29, 2010)

Had a couple of questions for you guys regarding how you handle your subs to insure that you are profitable on each account. If you bid a per push job at $50 and figure it will take 1 hour to complete and the sub you are paying $55/hr takes 1.5 hours to complete it, you've lost money. So, here are my scenarios I'd love some input on:

1) Are you paying your sub from the time they leave their house to their first account or only from the time their blade hits the ground on the first account?

2) Are you paying your subs for time on the lot only or do you pay for their time from lot to lot (blade down to blade up)?

3) If you bid a lot to take 1 hour and it takes your sub more than that to do it, are you paying them for only what you bid or for what it actually took them to do it?

I realize a good sub is worth a lot and that some storms take longer than others, etc., so I am just looking at how you handle this on the "typical" storm that hits?

Thanks.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

jkski;1438839 said:


> Had a couple of questions for you guys regarding how you handle your subs to insure that you are profitable on each account. If you bid a per push job at $50 and figure it will take 1 hour to complete and the sub you are paying $55/hr takes 1.5 hours to complete it, you've lost money. So, here are my scenarios I'd love some input on:
> 
> 1) Are you paying your sub from the time they leave their house to their first account or only from the time their blade hits the ground on the first account?
> 
> ...


Time travel should account for at least some time in your bid. This is where you should have an idea of how long everything should take. Why would you bid a lot at 50 bucks knowing its going to take at least an hour then pay subs 55/hr to plow it. Our subs get paid from the time they start plowing the first lot until the time they're done with the last. Our employee's get paid from the time they get to the shop to the time they get back. Nothings perfect, I'm sure there's times where it takes longer, coffee stops, phone calls etc. but I don't get too worked up as long as the route is done within a reasonable time. You should know how long a route is going to take on a normal night and if there's a huge difference in time start asking questions.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

jkski;1438839 said:


> 1) Are you paying your sub from the time they leave their house to their first account or only from the time their blade hits the ground on the first account?
> 
> No travel time to the first site, or from the last site for hourly subs.
> 
> ...


You're welcome.


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## NickT (Feb 1, 2011)

Speaking from the sub point of view, I am paid from the time I get to my first lot until I'm done. I plow commercial and resi. After each lot is done I call to see where to go next. I do have a set route, but depending on the time and day of week the lots get plowed in a different order.


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## jkski (Dec 29, 2010)

Thanks guys. I am actually a sub as well and as odd as it does sound, I like to make sure that the person I am working for is making money and not losing it on the jobs I am doing for him. I am very efficient and have asked the guy I work for to provide me with how much time he has allotted for each lot so that I know if I am truly on target or not. Like many of you have said, he is not too concerned but being that I am a business person, it is in my nature to make sure everything is turning a profit and if it seems like it is not, find a way to make it so. I have worked with the same great group of guys for many years and am compensated well, just like to make sure that things are fair for them.
Appreciate the education and input.


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## jschmitz93 (Nov 11, 2011)

The route that I sub for is a flat rate route. So for 2 to 6" I get paid x for 6 to 12 i get paid y and over 12 I get z. So it benefits me to be efficient as possible.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

jkski...you sound like a great guy to team up with.


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## jkski (Dec 29, 2010)

TCLA;1438886 said:


> jkski...you sound like a great guy to team up with.


My thought is simple....life is too short to screw people and if you do a good job then you will always have work. I don't believe in taking advantage of any situation, I simply want to be able to make a little extra money and I can't do that if the people I work for are not profitable, so the business mind kicks in to help them be more profitable. If the roles were reversed, it is what I would want someone to do for me.

It's nice to see how other people handle these things...there really is no 1 correct way.

Thanks again guys, now if we could just get a little snow!


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## NickT (Feb 1, 2011)

Seems like a good thread I hope it keeps going


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## V_Scapes (Jan 1, 2011)

I also plow as a sub doing parking lots. i live about 5 mins away from where i start dropping the blade which is awsome. i have no complaints for the guys i plow for, i show up when they call me and they let me work until the lots are clean. they never push me or ask me to go faster, if i finish with one lot and want more work sometimes theyll send me to another site. its up to me to let them know how many hours i worked. so my site manager doesnt keep track of it, i send them a bill, so if i wanted to "pad" the bill alittle i could for travel time, fuel, whatever, typically i dont cause ive known these guys a long time.


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## snoway63 (Dec 29, 2009)

My subs are paid from the time they start till they are finished including breaks. I look at it this way treat them right and you dont have to worry about your crew if your not around to supervise and they always get the work done the way you want it done, and you can always count on them in the following yrs


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## jkski (Dec 29, 2010)

When I started this thread I really wasn't sure what to expect in terms of responses but from what it seems, most of you work with your sub in the same fashion, employing trust and valuing the work they do and it garners a good, reciprocating working relationship. While I am certain you have all had your fair share of subs who do not pass muster, the common theme seems to be to pay a little more for a job well done and someone you can rely on.
It's refreshing to see.

I started my sub career just filling in on heavy snowfalls when the crap hit the fan and it quickly morphed into a regular route. I have often told the person I work for that on the lighter snows it may not pay to bring me in as his company owned trucks could likely cover the load.....not trying to pass-up money, just being honest, but as you guys point out, it's not just one event but the entire season that counts, so I can now see why I run everytime it snows.

Again, appreciate the education.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

i only get paid blade down to blade up. no travel time. and only 35 per hour at that. and on top of that.... he short checked me the first month. and those 2 emails he sent me explaining why,,, well. he forgot about those when he got an invoice showing an overdue amount.

i get sent across town to do a 15 minute job. and do not have a set route.

it kinda sucks working for this guy. but. iv made half a grand or so off of him. gets me by for another month.

sure hope we get snow in feburary. next year hopefully my whole route will be my own, not just half. (and hiring a few subs of my own woudl be great)


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## snoway63 (Dec 29, 2009)

I dont understand how anybody makes any money at 35, even my sidewalk crew $ an hour i wouldnt put my plow down for that and wouldnt expect my guys to either. My guys get 80 an hour and start from the time they arrive to site till they are done, even traveling from one site to another. I look at it this way once your on my clock your on it till you go home and should be compensated for it and I also give them a 3 hr minimum. You wont keep guys if you only call them out for anything less just isnt worth it for them plus like i said you take care of your guys they will take care of you, my sidewalk crew gets 20 an hour and a five hr minimum and ive never had a problem with getting guys to work.


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## jjklongisland (Nov 13, 2006)

snoway63;1439068 said:


> I dont understand how anybody makes any money at 35, even my sidewalk crew $ an hour i wouldnt put my plow down for that and wouldnt expect my guys to either. My guys get 80 an hour and start from the time they arrive to site till they are done, even traveling from one site to another. I look at it this way once your on my clock your on it till you go home and should be compensated for it and I also give them a 3 hr minimum. You wont keep guys if you only call them out for anything less just isnt worth it for them plus like i said you take care of your guys they will take care of you, my sidewalk crew gets 20 an hour and a five hr minimum and ive never had a problem with getting guys to work.


Basically what snoway is saying, you get what you pay for.

The way I see it there are two types of subs... Subs that truly enjoy plowing and making money and strive every storm to be as efficient as they can for there own personal pride (which is myself)... and then there are what I like to call Slacker Subs. Subs that get paid per hour, hiding on the side of the building, or sitting at 7-11. Alot of slacker subs work sub for the Towns. By me most of the neighborhoods are plowed by "subs". All as you need to plwo for most towns is a plow and a heartbeat. They pay about $20 per hour less then plowing private but allow for alot more slacking. Some of my friends that plow for the Town call me up and try and brag about how they are getting paid to plow but are sitting on the couch with their feet up... To me I take that personal.


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## jschmitz93 (Nov 11, 2011)

birddseedd;1439054 said:


> i only get paid blade down to blade up. no travel time. and only 35 per hour at that. and on top of that.... he short checked me the first month. and those 2 emails he sent me explaining why,,, well. he forgot about those when he got an invoice showing an overdue amount.
> 
> i get sent across town to do a 15 minute job. and do not have a set route.
> 
> ...


$35 an hour seems a little low. Thats what I try to get per driveway, or close to it anyway. I think that the average around here for subs is close to 50 an hour. I can deal with that. I prefer my own stuff which is around 90 per hour, $50 min for a commercial lot.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Its pretty simple...

When your a sub...You need to take Pride in your Work and take ownership in the sites your are serviceing for the company you are subbing to...


The company you are subbing to success hinges on Quality of work you are providing to them....

The More Successful the company is.....The More Successful you are....:salute:


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## snoway63 (Dec 29, 2009)

Thats exactly the idea the more success i have they will benefit


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jschmitz93;1439109 said:


> $35 an hour seems a little low. Thats what I try to get per driveway, or close to it anyway. I think that the average around here for subs is close to 50 an hour. I can deal with that. I prefer my own stuff which is around 90 per hour, $50 min for a commercial lot.


ya. it was low. but when the economy goes down wages go down. nothign i an do about it. i woudl rather have 35 than 0


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## RepoMan1968 (Jan 9, 2012)

jkski;1438839 said:


> Had a couple of questions for you guys regarding how you handle your subs to insure that you are profitable on each account. If you bid a per push job at $50 and figure it will take 1 hour to complete and the sub you are paying $55/hr takes 1.5 hours to complete it, you've lost money. So, here are my scenarios I'd love some input on:
> 
> 1) Are you paying your sub from the time they leave their house to their first account or only from the time their blade hits the ground on the first account?
> 
> ...


thats the whole idea of subbing .no babysitting . in the state of pa. , a contractor cannot be controlled as an employee. they bid on the whole scope of work , do it in a timely manner and get paid for their bid and 1099 them .

although you must qualify them .


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## blazer2plower (Nov 19, 2011)

When I sub I get 55 HR from blade down to blade up. I get told what route. And off I go. The man knows about how long it should take. For me to plow that route. He trustees me. I don't lie to him. As some other subs have. One good thing about working for
Him is he always fills my tank up at one point. On the route.

I love my Z


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## GimmeSnow!! (Oct 23, 2008)

I always said I'd only do my own lots, why make less money doing other peoples work for them? But I bought another truck this year and was going to sell one and ended up talking to a larger company about sinning the truck instead. The owner is excellent. He gave me a route with the prices we would get paid and asked me if i was interested. The people in the office are great to deal with. I can deal with a little less profit margin to get enough work for a truck for the night. On top of that, we're doing residentials, the first night we went out we only had about an inch on the ground. I called to verify that they actually wanted them done and they said yes. I had one of their customers come out and ask why we were plowing? I felt out the situation and found out they had prepaid for the season. I told the customer that the owner just wanted to get us some hours and give them a cleanup and some reassurance that we would be there for them. I truly believe that that is the case too, he could have kept the money in his pocket and had us stay home. We got three more customers added to that route in January and all have been seasonal prices. When you have a relationship with your subs or the company your subbing for it can be a great thing. He understands that if we don't work we won't have money to pay for the equipment we need. I understand that his customers are top priority to him and treat them savor they were my own and only have good things to say about him. I would love to pick up another route or two from them next year if I know I have top notch guys to get the job done for him.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

blazer2plower;1439502 said:


> When I sub I get 55 HR from blade down to blade up. I get told what route. And off I go. The man knows about how long it should take. For me to plow that route. He trustees me. I don't lie to him. As some other subs have. One good thing about working for
> Him is he always fills my tank up at one point. On the route.
> 
> I love my Z


how bromanticThumbs Up


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## Carpenter98 (Dec 24, 2010)

I sub to my landscaper buddy. I am a general contractor but winter is usually slower for me so I help him out. I do a church lot, a lumberyard, a warehouse/loading dock building and a couple of small business lots as a sub to him. I bill $70/hr, he charges the customer $80. (it costs me $10/hr just to run the truck, and it is all off-hour work so that is an upcharge). He takes care of salting & billing the customer. We only work hourly around here, very few guys charge on a per push basis. The lucky ones get seasonal rates. We plow in 6" increments whenever possible. I don't salt, only plow. He or one of his employees salts. I have my own insurance and a couple of my own accounts but mainly just help him keep a full load plus of clients. 

My time starts when I start up my truck in my driveway until I finish the last job. The way he & I figure it, it costs money to run the trucks if we are plowing or driving between sites. 

Since we only do hourly the whole topic of driving between sites and time-overages really isn't an issue. We can tell the client ahead of time what it will cost to clear their site based on X inches of snow and we are usually right on.


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

Im a Sub. My pay starts when i get the phone and ends when i get home.


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## NickT (Feb 1, 2011)

Sooo... I painted my yellow plow white is it not junk now?, its all how YOU take care of them, the color doesn't matter.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

jkski;1438876 said:


> Thanks guys. I am actually a sub as well and as odd as it does sound, I like to make sure that the person I am working for is making money and not losing it on the jobs I am doing for him. I am very efficient and have asked the guy I work for to provide me with how much time he has allotted for each lot so that I know if I am truly on target or not. Like many of you have said, he is not too concerned but being that I am a business person, it is in my nature to make sure everything is turning a profit and if it seems like it is not, find a way to make it so. I have worked with the same great group of guys for many years and am compensated well, just like to make sure that things are fair for them.
> Appreciate the education and input.


Your hired! Thumbs Up


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## NickT (Feb 1, 2011)

NickT;1440613 said:


> Sooo... I painted my yellow plow white is it not junk now?, its all how YOU take care of them, the color doesn't matter.


Not sure why this post is here I thought it was in another forum sorry


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