# Information For Fellow Newbies



## smiley39 (Feb 5, 2009)

I've spent a few days reading through this forum and thought I would assemble some of the things I think I have learned into one post. It may save some other rookies like me some time.

*ABOUT ME:*

I currently Have a Husqvarna GTH220 with a 40" Bercomac snowblower that I use to clear my lane and a couple of my neighbors'. This is all that is covered under my homeowners insurance policy, and only because I don't charge them anything.
I love using the machine and have toyed with the idea of getting a plow and doing it professionally for years
Started researching the ins and outs of the business here when I was approached by a local business to do their small parking lot. I told him I would look into it, and since educating myself on this site have told him it will be next year at the earliest before I will be doing it professionally, and I will keep him informed. He seemed impressed that I didn't just say yes and says he is eager to work something out for next year.
*GENERAL:*

Register with the site, so you can do searches, there is an insane amount of information on this site
Don't ask questions if you don't want honest opinions
If you really want to learn about the business, work for someone else for a year or two
If you are going to give it a shot, set yourself up as a business
Depending on where you live you may need a permit as well as a business license 
*Get insurance* for your vehicle and your business
Have a backup plan for yourself and your equipment, clients don't care if you or your equipment is broken, they want the snow cleared
*CONTRACTS:*

Get clients to sign contracts and make sure the work you are going to do is clearly described
Put a trigger amount in the contract, this is the amount of snowfall on the ground that "triggers" you coming to plow, 2.5" seems to be a common trigger point
If a client wants a higher trigger make sure they know you are not going to be able to do as clean a job, due to the snow likely being packed down before you get there, and it is going to cost them more per push, due to the increased wear and tear on your equipment
Similarly, if a client wants to only have it done when they call, you are not going to be able to do as clean a job, it will cost more, and they go to the bottom of the list in terms of priority
As a general rule, it sounds like people who want a higher trigger, or occasional on call service, are going to be a bit of a pain in the butt
There is a lot of debate over whether to charge one rate for the season or per push, but it doesn't change the fact that you should have a contract
Seasonal contracts only seem to be good if you have a really good sense of what to charge and your snowfall is pretty consistent year to year
Per Push contracts seem to be better suited to the rookie, as it is easier to have an idea what a single plowing is worth
I like the idea of moving, over time, towards having some clients on seasonal contracts and some on per push, say a 50/50 split. This way, it would seem, you are covered whether it is a low or high snowfall season
*TRUCKS, GENERAL RULES:*

Get a 4x4
Get something in the class of an F250 or 2500HD if you want to do more than smaller driveways
People do use jeeps, rangers, S10s, and the like, but the ones who use them professionally seem to cater to specific markets, like smaller driveways, or are willing to plow more often to stay ahead of the storms
It is good idea to get a truck with the plow package, and essential with some makes to keep your warranty
A beefier transmission cooler also seems to be a good addition
If you want to run all sorts of stuff while using the plow, or do lots of plowing, a better battery and alternator also sounds like a good idea

*PLOWS*

The single biggest factor with a plow seems to be having a good dealer close by
All the major manufacturers have plow selection tools on their sites
Once you know what market you are going to go after, you can search the site for plow recommendations specific to your needs

Like I said I am a total rookie and don't know any of this from experience, this is just info that seemed to come up time and time again in the posts from the Pros. I look forward to hearing what the Pros think, or have to add. I really appreciate all the information that has been offered up on this site. It has kept me from making some serious, and potentially costly mistakes. I'm not sure if I'll get into the business or not after all I have found out, it doesn't seem nearly as simple as I thought. I still love the idea of it though.


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

Smiley, I am sure I can speak for the many here, and say it is nice to see that someone actually reads first, before asking a million questions that have been answered a million times. 
I have had alot of people that I have told about this site, tell me that they all thought snow plowing was a very simple thing that anyone could do. I have tried to explain all of this, and it's way more than just having a truck, plow, and a full tank of gas, lol. There are so many things that go into running a plow operation, that it will actually blow your mind, if you do it all above the board, and legal.
Good luck and I hope you are able to get in the buisness.


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## Grampa Plow (Sep 1, 2008)

Yours has got to be one of the most impressive posts I've seen in a long time. By simply reading up and listening, you have developed a business plan that most banks would think was impressive. The smartest thing that you have said was get to know the business for a year or two BEFORE signing seasonal contracts. However, once you have that experience, season contracts work good IF you bid it for an average or above average year, that way you won't get stung. Many places like the idea of a single price per year, spread out over 6 or 7 months. Newbie or not, you'll do great!


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## smiley39 (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback, it is great to hear I am on the right track. I am leaning towards getting on with a local company next year. It is so hard not to just jump right in, but I think I'll be happier in the long run if I take it slow and learn the ropes, what is a couple of years now, if I plan on doing this for the next 20-30. Thanks again for the feedback.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Good post, Smiley39. :salute:. Could be a good "sticky". The only thing I'd suggest modifying (and that's a minor thing) is the "trigger" to 3" as common in most areas for driveways - commercial may be 1" or "zero tolerance".


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

great post . you sound like a smart guy

I would try afew things... get a job working for someone else first. Learn on there time, and dime, and in there equiptment. try to work yoru way up , and learn about the salting and doing regular maintenance.

then at that point, get your own truck and sub it out.

by year 3-4 then get your own accounts. This might all seem slow going 3-4 yrs? but if you really want to learn it the vest way , and cheapest way...this is it. You could jsut jump in your own truck and land your own jobs, I know alot of ppl that did it that way... but they all seem to be clueless about doing repairs, or figuring out productivity, and more than likely put a few good sized dents in their trucks while learning.


I would probablly add in - on singing seasonal accounts , some time syou dont always make what you should on them, if you have a harder winter, but atlease you can sleep at night knowing your XXX amount of dollars flowing in every month. It eases alot of stress

What i like to do , is not a 50/50 split. But rather , i figure out a number of dollars i want to profit per season... say its 100,000 then i sign up at least that amount in work , plus the estimated expense of it. so that might be 125,000 .... then i try to sign up enough per push accounts to ofset the cost and expense of the seasonal accounts, in this case 25,000. This way no matter if it snows or not, you make the same... if it blizzards , or is the leaset snowiest on record , you make the same 


best of luck to you


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## KGRlandscapeing (May 2, 2007)

I was impressed though i think the guy befor me got it worng or may have miss lead a few people. Just because You dont have years in a plow truck dosent mean you will wreck one. Its all about patience and basics. Youll do fine that i know.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

KGRlandscapeing;748557 said:


> I was impressed though i think the guy befor me got it worng or may have miss lead a few people. Just because You dont have years in a plow truck dosent mean you will wreck one. Its all about patience and basics. Youll do fine that i know.


ok, please let me refraise.... the odds for most ppl are that they will casue damage with less experiance, its not saying everyone does, but most guys that have more experiance have less equiptment problems

im wasnt just talking about denting up a truck , but shifting on the fly from drive to reverse, or making tight turns in 4x4...or wacking curbs with the blade, trying to get your timing correct. It doesnt have to cause visible damage , so much as long term effects


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## KGRlandscapeing (May 2, 2007)

elite1msmith;748568 said:


> ok, please let me refraise.... the odds for most ppl are that they will casue damage with less experiance, its not saying everyone does, but most guys that have more experiance have less equiptment problems
> 
> im wasnt just talking about denting up a truck , but shifting on the fly from drive to reverse, or making tight turns in 4x4...or wacking curbs with the blade, trying to get your timing correct. It doesnt have to cause visible damage , so much as long term effects


When i saw ur first post it was the short version befor u added to it. I knew what you were getting at i was just trying to clear things up. Were not here to scare just to inform. yes i do understand that a New plower wont be as efficent as somebody whos done it for years. then again there are guys who have done it for years and suck. And its winter time mother nature dosent care if your green or seasond she packs the same punch


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## flakesmeangreen (Nov 19, 2001)

That's a great Cliffs Notes version of Plowsite. Now we just need to get people to read it!

Best of luck to you!


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## ducatirider944 (Feb 25, 2008)

Good beginning post, I like you already! I don't care what people say about those canooks, your a smart guy.


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## chcav1218 (Jul 31, 2008)

smiley, i think you've got it all figured out, you're gonna be good lol


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Excellent Thread. Smiley it took me 2 days to read every post of Neiges' and am still working on JDDaves. Man he posts a lot.tymusic

*Make it a sticky*


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## Oasis (Oct 28, 2007)

Great post Smiley and welcome... always great to see more plowers here from Ontario.


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## Krieger91 (Feb 7, 2008)

Great post, man. And welcome to the site. I know it's been said before, but you're gonna do alright working like you speak.

To KGR and elite; I don't know how often it works like this, but I'll be learning in my own truck. The truck I have, the '81 K20, I bought as a work truck, it just happened to have a blade on it.

And, I think elite was referring to routine maintenance and emergency problems, such as a spring or a hose breaking. I can see where a new guy wouldn't know much about how to fix things like that....


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## smiley39 (Feb 5, 2009)

*Great Feedback, Thanks*

It is good to hear what you all have to say. Elite, I like the way you think, and thanks everyone for the great ideas. Here is what I am thinking.

*CURRENT PLAN:*

Although I already have some mechanical skills, I'm going to take a small engine maintenance course to make myself more appealing to people running mowers, and blowers
In town most of the people doing snowplowing seem to do landscaping in the summer, so I will get on with someone this spring/summer who does both
Show myself to be a good worker and get myself running one of their plows next winter, or more likely, the winter after that ) hopefully I can at least get behind the wheel next winter )
Learn about the business running their plow for 2 or 3 years
If I luck into a really good employer, I might stop there
If I still have the itch to run my own business I'll let them know my plans and ask if I could sub for them if I got my own truck
Sub for other people until I am really comfortable with the business, then get contracts of my own

Thanks for taking to time to help me fine tune this. It makes committing to a long term plan a lot easier, knowing that people with experience think it will work. It will be interesting to see if I still want to run my own business after learning how to do it. There seems to be an incredible amount of work that goes into doing this right.


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## Kunker (Nov 26, 2008)

Damn, I wish my first posts had been as well thought out as this. You do us newbies proud, and your plans sound pretty darn good.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

Smiley39 = smartest newbie ever.


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## SKYNYRD (Jan 13, 2009)

smiley if you were down my way you would be in my truck right now. we got no snow but u would be there lol. i really admire you for taking the time to post what you did. my hat is off to you. keep us updated on what you're doing and best of luck to you in the future!


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

*Rate this one*

5 stars *****


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## MileHigh (Nov 6, 2007)

can't wait to see Smiley39's 500th post!!


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## CountryBoy72 (Jan 8, 2009)

Smiley39, Seeing how were in the same boat. I am also starting to get ready for next year too. Word of mouth seems to be going along way. People are already offering me jobs for next year and who else might be calling. Few other things I did to were: Called my insurance agent about switching my truck over to business ins, what it would cost for commercial liabilty insurance and what is and isn't covered, found out BC vehicle insurance doesn't cover plows or spreaders an that where CLI comes in and covers that. Might even approach a friend who has a construction company and see if he wants to add a plow to his arrsenal and sub with him. That way I can get experience and be covered under his insurance to start with. I also joined SIMA to get even more info and access to guys knowledge and some of there resources. Got lots of good info and got to see sample contracts and a small insight into all the aspects of running a business in this industry. Talked to my accountant about the whole business idea and what tax breaks I can get and how it all works. In the process of designing and making business cards, registering for a Bus. name and Lic. Contacting a lawyer to discuss liabilty forms/waivers and contracts. There is definitely alot of great info and knowledge to be had on this sight. Read as many posts as I can and be as well informed about every possible aspect of the industry. Think I read so many posts about plows and what was the best for what you will be doing, what issues certain plows are prone to An how to fix them when that problem arises. Drive all the guys nuts with so many newbie questions. Thanks everybody for your help and input and good luck Smiley39.


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## smiley39 (Feb 5, 2009)

You're miles ahead of me CountryBoy72, sounds like you are on the track I want to be on in a couple years from now. I think I said it in one of my earlier posts, but it is amazing to me just how much is involved in running a snow plow as a legitimate business. I am also continually surprised by how much help the Pros are. It makes me want to get into the business even more. 

Even though I'm not going to get a plow truck for two or three years, I still find myself on the big three's sites a couple times a week building up my dream truck.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Welcome to plowsite Smiley. Fire away with any questions you may have.


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## smiley39 (Feb 5, 2009)

*Business Plan*

Thanks Johnny, here is what I have been wondering about lately. Something Elite said got me thinking, it was about how he makes sure he has enough contracts signed to cover his operating costs and profits. This got me thinking about the expenses side of the business.

*ONE TIME (sort of):*

Truck
Plow
Small Spreader
Small Blower, if I am going to do walks
Trailer for my big blower
Bookkeeping software
Consult with lawyer, once I have my contracts and correspondence roughed out

*YEARLY:*

Business License and Permit Fees
Truck Insurance
Business Insurance (general liability)
Equipment Maintenance (truck, plow, spreader, blower, etc.)
Fuel
Salt/Sand depending on the contracts I go after
Tax Prep Software, or professional tax prep fees
Bank related fees for a business account
Possibly Employee related expenses, if I had a shoveler

So I have a couple questions, first, what am I missing in terms of expenses? Second, how many seasons can I expect to get out of a commercial grade plow and truck (2500HD)? When it comes to the truck and plow I imagine that has a lot to do with how you use it. I am pretty easy on equipment. I generally take more time to do the job as opposed to pushing equipment beyond its limits.


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## CityGuy (Dec 19, 2008)

smiley39;750918 said:


> Thanks Johnny, here is what I have been wondering about lately. Something Elite said got me thinking, it was about how he makes sure he has enough contracts signed to cover his operating costs and profits. This got me thinking about the expenses side of the business.
> 
> *ONE TIME (sort of):*
> 
> ...


If you want to spend the money Quickbboks makes billing and book keeping easy (one it is set up) and turbo tax can inport most of your info at tax time.

Work Comp if you have employees


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## KGRlandscapeing (May 2, 2007)

I think you forgot the Break down money and the Growing money.


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## CountryBoy72 (Jan 8, 2009)

Don't forget business expenses like telephone bills (cell and business phone line), fax machine, paper for printing, billing, copying and other office supplies.Accountant.Software for the computer and upgrade and maintenance to your computer. Rental space or home based for you trucks, salt, tools etc...Home based and buildings for business will you also let you write off certain %'s. Example: can write off a percentage of house(1/3 sqft of total house) The garage and the computer room(office) and bathroom. Parking spot in the driveway for the truck. % of the Heating and Electrical bills, meals and entertaining clients(present and future).Fuel(used to get to and from clients and other business related errands) Supplier for your salt and other related items.


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## smiley39 (Feb 5, 2009)

*Thanks For All The Information*

Well, after a couple weeks of research on this site and learning from the Pros, I think it is safe to say that I'm not going to start my own Snow Plow Business. I have been thinking about trying this out for years, but never took the time to fully look into it until now. I am incredibly grateful for all the knowledge that has been shared on this site. It has saved me from making an expensive mistake.

*REASONS:*

*IT IS WAY MORE WORK THAN I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT*
- although I am not one to shy away from hard work, there is an insane amount of stuff involved in doing this right
I don't have another need for the truck, general liability insurance, etc.
- this could be the biggest reason right here
- my operational costs would have to be spread over too short a time
I don't think I have the patience to deal with the PITA clients
- although you can get around some of this with good planning, it still sounds like a bit of a pain
I think constantly needing to be ready for months at a time would wear me down

*PLAN:*

Take a small engine repair course to have more skills
Update my Industrial First Aid Certification
Get my applications in early next season
Show myself to be reliable, shoveling, snowblowing, etc.
Work my way up to running one of their trucks
In the end, have a blast plowing for someone else

Thanks again for the help.


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## SKYNYRD (Jan 13, 2009)

it's really refreshing to see someone take the time to stop and think things completely out. knowledge is the most valuable tool you can have, best of luck smiley


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

smiley39;753127 said:


> Well, after a couple weeks of research on this site and learning from the Pros, I think it is safe to say that I'm not going to start my own Snow Plow Business. I have been thinking about trying this out for years, but never took the time to fully look into it until now. I am incredibly grateful for all the knowledge that has been shared on this site. It has saved me from making an expensive mistake.
> 
> *REASONS:*
> 
> ...


Smiley, after being so impressed with your first post I have to say I was pretty disappointed to read your last post. I respect your decision not to plow, you know yourself, your abilities and whats best for you, but I wonder if you kind of overwhelmed yourself with information and that's what led to your decision. You gotta remember that all the horror stories you read on here are from hundreds of guys with thousands of combined years of plowing. The other thing is things may seem overwhelming with the insurance, and starting a company and accounting and blah blah blah, but it's really not.

I don't know about Canada, but here you can set up an LLC for less than a hundred bucks and form that is about 2 pages long. Insurance-go to your agent and set it up so you get billed monthly so you don't take a hard it all at once. Hold off on employees until you have a few years under your belt, THAT is a lot of paperwork and insurance.

Equipment, don't know your financial situation but trucks, new and used are SUPER cheap right now and if your gonna buy one do it now.

Yes, its hard work, yes it takes money, and yes it can be a PIA at times. But it can be a fantastic source of income and something that is enjoyable to do (look at all these guys that if they arent out plowing are sitting on this site TALKING about plowing. If they didn't love it they wouldnt be talking about it!).

Here is what I think of your reasons not to plow:
No other need for the truck? That does not matter at all, look at all the guys driving pickups that don't plow. It can be your daily driver.

Don't have patience to deal with PITA customers? Is dealing with a PIA boss easier?

Don't want to be on standby for months? Think it will wear you down? Well, if you drive a plow truck for someone else arent you on standby for months?

My advice would be go plow for someone for a year or two. See how you like it. Then get your own truck and insurance and sub for a year or two, then go out on your own.

It just sucks to see a guy that seems to have his head on straight and knows how to think be discouraged. However, I am sure you will succeed in anything you do.

Good luck!


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## smiley39 (Feb 5, 2009)

*You May Be Right*

Hello Ipushsnow,

Thanks for the response, you may be right about my having overwhelmed myself.

I'm going to stick with the plan of working for someone else for a few years, you all seem to think that is a good idea. I figure after a couple years I'll have a really good idea if this is something I want to do for myself. One of the really important questions working for someone else will answer, is if I can deal with being on call for months at a time. Having said that, I imagine it is very different being available when your boss calls, as opposed to being responsible for getting out before your clients start calling.

Good point about the costs of setting up a business, I don't actually know what the yearly costs would be. I'm going to make a couple calls to see what the actual costs are to set up and run a business here, the more solid information I have the better.

_My biggest problem._ I'm in an odd situation where I don't have/need a vehicle at all right now. I live close to downtown, grocery store, hardware store, etc., so for me it would be the choice between having no vehicle, or having a truck with all the associated costs. This is probably the biggest downside for me right now, not insurmountable, but definitely a challenge.

You are right about the PITA bosses, I'm sure they can be as bad as PITA clients. The other point you make that I have thought about a lot is how much you all seem to like doing this. This is one thing that really makes me want to get into the business. That and the fact that I love clearing snow. Right now I'm doing this with my Husqvarna lawn tractor with a 40" blower. There is something so satisfying about clearing the lane behind my house. The idea of being paid to do it seems almost too good to be true.

Thanks again.


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