# Snowrator or Snowblowers? Is it worth it?



## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

Hello,

We just picked up an apartment complex and it will be our biggest property. I originally thought I’d have a guy go around with a snow blower doing the walkways. The more I think about it, I might actually need two guys on snowblowers. Now I’m considering a Snowrator with he drop salter on the front. Question is, is it worth the $17k price tag? In addition to be being faster than a snow blower, we can use it for salt events to get the ice melt down quickly. At that price, I’m debating and stressing if I want to just do it with snowblowers and push spreaders. Thoughts?


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## J-Mech (4 mo ago)

We clear sidewalks with a garden tractor with a cab and either a blade or a snowblower. Way faster than a walk behind blower. This pic was from last year.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Do you have unlimited labor?

Are you a jobs program or a business to make a profit? 

This is a no-brainer.


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

J-Mech said:


> We clear sidewalks with a garden tractor with a cab and either a blade or a snowblower. Way faster than a walk behind blower. This pic was from last year.
> 
> View attachment 258560


Nice set up!


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Do you have unlimited labor?
> 
> Are you a jobs program or a business to make a profit?
> 
> This is a no-brainer.


I’m trying to make the right financial decision so I’m not blowing the entire contract money on equipment. Any info on the walk behind brushes? Are they any good or is it better to spend $20k on a Mag with a brush?


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## J-Mech (4 mo ago)

Snowguy23 said:


> Nice set up!


Thanks!
That unit is what got me started clearing snow 20 years ago. It didn’t have the cab back then. Brrrrrrr!!! Nothing like snow from that blower coming back on you! I don’t know how many hours I’d put on it every winter. Have to start somewhere! We don’t get snow here like we did 30+ years ago. Some winters we don’t even have to clear. Some we work a lot. Hoping we work a lot this year because I bought a bunch of equipment this year and expanded the snow equipment line up. We use all tractors, no trucks. No big lots. Small business parking lots (25 +/- spaces), apartment buildings and residential drives. Couple churches usually and at least one Post Office. (Hoping to get a second larger Post Office this year.) 

On what equipment to buy: You want to be in and out as quickly as you can so you can get on to the next place. The quicker you can do it, the more money you make. Don’t expect the one apartment complex to pay for your equipment. Buy some equipment and go get more contracts!


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Snowguy23 said:


> I’m trying to make the right financial decision so I’m not blowing the entire contract money on equipment. Any info on the walk behind brushes? Are they any good or is it better to spend $20k on a Mag with a brush?


1st year machine, I'd steer clear for a year... Not sure your location and what type of snow you generally receive, but a broom can only handle so much...


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

If you have limited labour buy the sno rator. 1 staff member multiple things they can do with it. The $17.000 will get eaten up quick in labour depending I guess how much snow you get.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

How much does labor cost vs a machine that will do the work of 3-4 employees?


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

OP, since we don't have/want your numbers keep this in mind: Sell the job based on prevailing rates-your numbers are profitable right?- for your area and the quality of service you offer. Then work your costs back. Labor is your biggest cost year over year. Cutting labor makes you money. How long will you have the machine? How many LF/SQ FT can you do with it in an average event then sell that footage. Use the manpower surplus to perform other work and get more $ from that.

Yeah its a big number the first time out but there is a reason that equipment exists and so many were use them.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Snowguy23 said:


> I’m trying to make the right financial decision so I’m not blowing the entire contract money on equipment. Any info on the walk behind brushes? Are they any good or is it better to spend $20k on a Mag with a brush?


I understand that but you're looking at it wrong as others have stated. Labor costs more, is more unreliable and harder to find. But you didn't answer the questions.

Do you have other work for the machine? How many hours did you estimate? Can snowblower 1 perform other work when he finishes...plowing or walks? I can't remember the other questions I was going to axe. 

In this economy it is all about efficiency. 2 guys with blowers is anything but efficient unless that is the only way to do the work. Actually, any economy.

Last year I bought another loader for plowing. Between purchase price and repairs, I spent about as much or maybe a bit less than a well equipped pickup with front and rear plows. I had another 50% into the purchase of a plow for it. The CFO asked why not a truck or trucks. For less than 1/3 the price of 3 trucks with plows I can do the same amount of work. More importantly I only needed 1 operator. I know it doesn't compare exactly but it's basically the same thing. 

Plus, you will be able to get something out of the machine if you lose the contract next year or whatever.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I understand that but you're looking at it wrong as others have stated. Labor costs more, is more unreliable and harder to find. But you didn't answer the questions.
> 
> Do you have other work for the machine? How many hours did you estimate? Can snowblower 1 perform other work when he finishes...plowing or walks? I can't remember the other questions I was going to axe.
> 
> ...


Don't forget that heavy equipment has better resale AND longer lifespans doing snow. That pickup [snowblower] only lasts a few seasons then either is worth nothing compared to what you paid for it [new] or is junk. Loaders and the snowrator can be resold for good amounts compared to the entry cost [used or new in the loader's case].


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If there's that much blower work, it's going to be a one season machine realistically. 

Still waiting for some answers from the OP.

How much snow do you get?

What are the specs? Salt every time?


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## gcbailey (Jan 26, 2014)

Walk behind snow blower will replace 3 guys with shovels.
Ventrac with a snow blower will replace 6 guys with shovels.
Snow blower only makes money in the winter.
Ventrac can make money year round.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

gcbailey said:


> Walk behind snow blower will replace 3 guys with shovels.
> Ventrac with a snow blower will replace 6 guys with shovels.
> Snow blower only makes money in the winter.
> Ventrac can make money year round.
> View attachment 258583


Are you seriously using that snow blower for that 1/2"? 🤣


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## gcbailey (Jan 26, 2014)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Are you seriously using that snow blower for that 1/2"? 🤣


When they have a 1" trigger per contract.... Yes.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Bah, all you naysayers in this thread not willing to help or offer any constructive advice....OP is going to make it despite all that!


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Bah, all you naysayers in this thread not willing to help or offer any constructive advice....OP is going to make it despite all that!


I do not recall anyone say “nay” here…


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## J-Mech (4 mo ago)

gcbailey said:


> Snow blower only makes money in the winter.
> Ventrac can make money year round.


That's why we run all tractors and no plow trucks.
First and foremost, a tractor is so versatile. I can run a front broom for light snow, a front blade when it gets heavier, or a snowblower on front if I need to. On the rear we can run a blade or a blower. I don't currently have any front blowers for the main tractors because as I stated earlier, we don't get as much snow as we used to, but I'm set up for one. I'd just have to find one if I needed it, and I don't mind driving to get one if I have to. Anyway, the tractors have dual PTO's and I could put a blower on front and rear and run them going both directions. (Both PTO's can be ran simultaneously.) Same with the blade. I can switch to a loader if I need to pile it higher. Whatever it calls for, the tractor can do it. Key with them is you need to have all your work close enough together not to have to road too far, otherwise you are loading and unloading and that takes time. I've got all the equipment set up for hauling, and I can boom down two tractors in just a few minutes, but that is something you have to consider, load time, if you have to haul. Currently, we service two towns in my rural county that are about twelve miles apart. So, we do one town and load up and move to the next. One town is tiny, about 1200 people. The other around 6,000 but we put most of our accounts together, so we aren't running across town. 

There's info in that paragraph that can be taken as advice, but I didn't spell it out, so I will. 

Get contracts close to each other to save dead heading.
Get equipment that can do multiple jobs. Like gcbailey said, snowblowers only make money in the winter. Look at a tractor. It can be used year round. A truck with a plow can too I suppose, but once you plow with a tractor, payloader or a skid steer, you won't go back to a truck.
Equipment saves labor and time. You can charge more for equipment. Sure it does the job faster, but billing rate per hour is higher the larger and more expensive the equipment. In the end, equipment will make you more than a bunch of guys do. Employees can make you money, but not as much as the equipment can.
Get the right tool for the job. If you have a bunch of sidewalks, look at a large garden tractor with a blade, a subcompact tractor, or a mini skid. All those can clear walks and leave little to shovel. Me personally, I don't shovel much if any at all. You might have bid shoveling all the way to the door, I don't know.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Do you have a z spray or steel green machine that can be fitted with a plow? Then you're looking at $4000 as opposed to 15000+


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## J-Mech (4 mo ago)

Another note I’d like to make here….. you don’t have to buy brand new equipment.


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

m_ice said:


> Do you have a z spray or steel green machine that can be fitted with a plow? Then you're looking at $4000 as opposed to 15000+


We do have a Z-Spray, but you lose the locking caster wheels for hillside spreading so want to avoid that.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Snowguy23 said:


> We do have a Z-Spray, but you lose the locking caster wheels for hillside spreading so want to avoid that.


True


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I understand that but you're looking at it wrong as others have stated. Labor costs more, is more unreliable and harder to find. But you didn't answer the questions.
> 
> Do you have other work for the machine? How many hours did you estimate? Can snowblower 1 perform other work when he finishes...plowing or walks? I can't remember the other questions I was going to axe.
> 
> ...


This is a fixed price for the season contract which we already signed. We have to designate the equipment to the site. Thought process is having a guy on the snowrator or a walk behind broom consistently and that would be his only job (or two guys with snowblowers). Worried the plow won’t clean the concrete walkway like the broom.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Not sure if it's already been covered or not but is it a 1 year contract or multi year? If multi year it's a little easier to amortize a piece of equipment then.


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

J-Mech said:


> That's why we run all tractors and no plow trucks.
> First and foremost, a tractor is so versatile. I can run a front broom for light snow, a front blade when it gets heavier, or a snowblower on front if I need to. On the rear we can run a blade or a blower. I don't currently have any front blowers for the main tractors because as I stated earlier, we don't get as much snow as we used to, but I'm set up for one. I'd just have to find one if I needed it, and I don't mind driving to get one if I have to. Anyway, the tractors have dual PTO's and I could put a blower on front and rear and run them going both directions. (Both PTO's can be ran simultaneously.) Same with the blade. I can switch to a loader if I need to pile it higher. Whatever it calls for, the tractor can do it. Key with them is you need to have all your work close enough together not to have to road too far, otherwise you are loading and unloading and that takes time. I've got all the equipment set up for hauling, and I can boom down two tractors in just a few minutes, but that is something you have to consider, load time, if you have to haul. Currently, we service two towns in my rural county that are about twelve miles apart. So, we do one town and load up and move to the next. One town is tiny, about 1200 people. The other around 6,000 but we put most of our accounts together, so we aren't running across town.
> 
> There's info in that paragraph that can be taken as advice, but I didn't spell it out, so I will.
> ...


This site requires that the equipment is designated to it. I have to keep walkways and parking lot cleared through out the storm. We have two Ditchwitch's, but I don’t have the right guys to use them for the walkways. I need something easier to use than a mini skid. I have a lot of equipment and accounts, but first one this big.


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

m_ice said:


> Not sure if it's already been covered or not but is it a 1 year contract or multi year? If multi year it's a little easier to amortize a piece of equipment then.


One year, but likely they renew.


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

J-Mech said:


> Another note I’d like to make here….. you don’t have to buy brand new equipment.


The only used snowrator is the original with the broadcast spreader for $9,500. I’ve been in communication with the owner, not sure I want that style though as there’s grass along the walkway and worries of damaging the grass with broadcast vs drop.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Snowguy23 said:


> One year, but likely they renew.


Make sure you get a signed contract for the following year, or if you can do a multi year contract.


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

Ajlawn1 said:


> 1st year machine, I'd steer clear for a year... Not sure your location and what type of snow you generally receive, but a broom can only handle so much...


Located in MA, just south of Boston.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Snowguy23 said:


> This site requires that the equipment is designated to it. I have to keep walkways and parking lot cleared through out the storm. We have two Ditchwitch's, but I don’t have the right guys to use them for the walkways. I need something easier to use than a mini skid. I have a lot of equipment and accounts, but first one this big.


So how long do you estimate for one clearing? Do you have to salt every time?

I don't think I've heard anyone sing the praises about how well those walk behind brooms work


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If you estimated 6 hours with 2 guys but you can get it done in half the time (or less) you've effectively doubled your hourly rate. 

If you figure $50/hour/man and 6 hours for 2 people that's $600. But if you do it in 3 hours with 1 guy, you're at $100/hour. Yes, you have to figure in the cost of the machine but I'm confident you'll recover that by eliminating one person. Unless you're figuring $25-35/hour.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Snowguy23 said:


> The only used snowrator is the original with the broadcast spreader for $9,500. I’ve been in communication with the owner, not sure I want that style though as there’s grass along the walkway and worries of damaging the grass with broadcast vs drop.


9500 for an original snorator is high dollar


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

J-Mech said:


> Another note I’d like to make here….. you don’t have to buy brand new equipment.


Personally, unless it's super low hours I'd stay away from an air-cooled moochine that is used for salting.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> If you figure $50/hour/man and 6 hours for 2 people that's $600. But if you do it in 3 hours with 1 guy, you're at $100/hour. Yes, you have to figure in the cost of the machine but I'm confident you'll recover that by eliminating one person. Unless you're figuring $25-35/hour.


Is 50 per man hour all you guys are getting in Meatchickin?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I wish we were that high...


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So how long do you estimate for one clearing? Do you have to salt every time?
> 
> I don't think I've heard anyone sing the praises about how well those walk behind brooms work


Two blowers I’d guess about 2-3 hours to do the entire walkway once. I plan to pre-salt and salt during as needed and then at the end.
Do the blades scrap down to the concrete or leave snow? Only reason I was thinking broom.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Snowguy23 said:


> Do the blades scrap down to the concrete or leave snow? Only reason I was thinking broom.


Aren’t you going to be salting?


also try not to crack the sidewalk with those sidewalk machines, because that has happened…


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Aren’t you going to be salting?
> 
> 
> also try not to crack the sidewalk with those sidewalk machines, because that has happened…


Yes we will be salting as needed. Looking to minimize the amount of salt needed.

They weigh about as much as a Walker Mower. Not concerned with cracking, these are heavy duty walkways.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Snowguy23 said:


> Yes we will be salting as needed. Looking to minimize the amount of salt needed.
> 
> They weigh about as much as a Walker Mower. Not concerned with cracking, these are heavy duty walkways.


The cracking is a joke on here...
Do you have walker mowers? Cheap alternative is a blower for one of those


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

m_ice said:


> The cracking is a joke on here...
> Do you have walker mowers? Cheap alternative is a blower for one of those


I just literally laughed out loud  I was like What the...

I don't have a walker, thought about going that route though. We don't mow... yet.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Snowguy23 said:


> I just literally laughed out loud  I was like What the...
> 
> I don't have a walker, thought about going that route though. We don't mow... yet.


That's funny


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## J-Mech (4 mo ago)

Snowguy23 said:


> I just literally laughed out loud  I was like What the...
> 
> I don't have a walker, thought about going that route though. We don't mow... yet.


I run Walker mowers. I haven’t yet used one for snow removal. In the video’s I’ve watched, it looks like they do exceptionally well. But, using a heavily weighted garden tractor for over 20 years to push snow with, I just can’t imagine the Walkers moving very deep snow with a blade. They just aren’t that heavy. As far as maneuverability, I can’t imagine anything better. One of these days I may buy a plow or blower for one and give it a shot. I’d like to try it out before writing that machine off as a snow machine.


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

J-Mech said:


> I run Walker mowers. I haven’t yet used one for snow removal. In the video’s I’ve watched, it looks like they do exceptionally well. But, using a heavily weighted garden tractor for over 20 years to push snow with, I just can’t imagine the Walkers moving very deep snow with a blade. They just aren’t that heavy. As far as maneuverability, I can’t imagine anything better. One of these days I may buy a plow or blower for one and give it a shot. I’d like to try it out before writing that machine off as a snow machine.


I plan on having the machine run regularly during storms, so the only accumulation should be between runs. If it takes an hour to do the walks, we should never see more than maybe 2-3" on the ground. Might be worth looking into...


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## J-Mech (4 mo ago)

Snowguy23 said:


> I plan on having the machine run regularly during storms, so the only accumulation should be between runs. If it takes an hour to do the walks, we should never see more than maybe 2-3" on the ground. Might be worth looking into...


In your situation I would. But I already own 3, so not as big a deal for me.


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## J-Mech (4 mo ago)

I’ve done sidewalks with a 4 wheeler too. They work well. If you use too large of one, they aren’t very nimble or maneuverable, but a 4X4 4-wheeler can push a lot of snow and fast.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Snowguy23 said:


> Two blowers I’d guess about 2-3 hours to do the entire walkway once. I plan to pre-salt and salt during as needed and then at the end.
> Do the blades scrap down to the concrete or leave snow? Only reason I was thinking broom.


It depends, if you're going to keep at it they will. But if it it builds and people walk on it you will get some hardpack although salting will help.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

J-Mech said:


> I’ve done sidewalks with a 4 wheeler too. They work well. If you use too large of one, they aren’t very nimble or maneuverable, but a 4X4 4-wheeler can push a lot of snow and fast.


4 wheelers suck on anything but long straight runs. And even then they aren't that great. ATV plows are too light.


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## EdwardCLS (9 mo ago)

We went through the transition from single stage snowblowers to rators in the last couple years. As the person with boots on the ground there is no comparison. Me (And the other sidewalk guys) are all able to do more and get it done faster than with blowers. Eliminating the walking up and down the walks, along with no snow cloud makes us able/willing to work more. They have their quirks, but you will never go back to snowblowers for most properties. We can do city walks in 8 minutes that took previously 2/3 hours. Without being physically exhausted. Just my two cents. 

We got ours used from a company in Chicago. Around $7500 for 2/300 hour machines.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

FWIW steel blades on old concrete have been known to chip edges/corners. See if you can run poly if you do blades on old stuff. UHMW works well.

I wouldn't trust the promise of "we will probably renew next year" as far as you can throw it. In writing or it isn't happening. Especially if you are doing this direct get with the client and explain how the better equipment requires the multi year. Explain how you can provide a better and more reliable service with a multi. Explain how you can only afford to put new stuff on clients sites that are committed to you.

If they are a solid client and you charge a fair rate they will keep with you when they realize you are committed to them not just the $.


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

EdwardCLS said:


> We went through the transition from single stage snowblowers to rators in the last couple years. As the person with boots on the ground there is no comparison. Me (And the other sidewalk guys) are all able to do more and get it done faster than with blowers. Eliminating the walking up and down the walks, along with no snow cloud makes us able/willing to work more. They have their quirks, but you will never go back to snowblowers for most properties. We can do city walks in 8 minutes that took previously 2/3 hours. Without being physically exhausted. Just my two cents.
> 
> We got ours used from a company in Chicago. Around $7500 for 2/300 hour machines.


This is what I wanted to know and the info I was looking for. I always look to do what I can to make the work easier for my guys. I'll be getting one for this season. Thank you!


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## Snowguy23 (2 mo ago)

Kvston said:


> FWIW steel blades on old concrete have been known to chip edges/corners. See if you can run poly if you do blades on old stuff. UHMW works well.
> 
> I wouldn't trust the promise of "we will probably renew next year" as far as you can throw it. In writing or it isn't happening. Especially if you are doing this direct get with the client and explain how the better equipment requires the multi year. Explain how you can provide a better and more reliable service with a multi. Explain how you can only afford to put new stuff on clients sites that are committed to you.
> 
> If they are a solid client and you charge a fair rate they will keep with you when they realize you are committed to them not just the $.


I definitely am not relying on them for a renewal. No loyalty anywhere. Unfortunately they are a national maintenance company and this is how they approach these contracts. I've spoken to the supervisor and we'll take it as it comes.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Snowguy23 said:


> I definitely am not relying on them for a renewal. No loyalty anywhere. Unfortunately they are a national maintenance company and this is how they approach these contracts. I've spoken to the supervisor and we'll take it as it comes.


Yeah you will only get renewed if they get it and if no one else comes in cheaper as a sub. That world is cutthroat-I'm a sub too. Keep in mind you are only getting 40-60% of the pie. When you can, get your own contracts.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Silver lining...once you own the equipment you can put it to work elsewhere if need be


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

m_ice said:


> Silver lining...once you own the equipment you can put it to work elsewhere if need be


Thanks Sherman...


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