# Brine vs Granular. What's better overall?



## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

So here are the questions

-How many gallons of brine does it typically take to cover an acre? 

-How many pounds of granular to typically cover an acre? 

-Which is more cost efficient? (assuming brine is homemade at about .11 cents a gallon.)


Lets See!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)




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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Depends on if you’re union or non union


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Depends on if you're union or non union


Non union. Im just seeing which is more affordable and better for me to use as an independent guy on my own land.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Thebrineguy said:


> Non union. Im just seeing which is more affordable and better for me to use as an independent guy on my own land.


What have you been using in the past?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> Non union. Im just seeing which is more affordable and better for me to use as an independent guy on my own land.


And I've got ocean front property in Arizona for sale.

Some of us didn't fall off the turnip truck.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Hold on....I need to consult the handbook


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Thebrineguy said:


> -Which is more cost efficient? (assuming brine is homemade at about .11 cents a gallon.)
> 
> Lets See!


Was that 11 cents calculated using coal or propane for the boiling?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> Non union. Im just seeing which is more affordable and better for me to use as an independent guy on my own land.


If this is true, how do you know the cost to produce it?

What happens if there isn't salt available to make brine?

Is the cost really $.11\gallon if the price of salt went from say $70\ton to $130\ton?

Does that $.11 include your labor costs and the equipment costs to create brine? Tanks, pumps, plumbing, etc?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> If this is true, how do you know the cost to produce it?
> 
> What happens if there isn't salt available to make brine?
> 
> ...


Do you need me to pull the hook out of your mouth for you?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Do you need me to pull the hook out of your mouth for you?


It isn't barbed, so I'm good.

I thought I would humour the lad. And no reason he can't answer questions since he's new here.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> since he *HAS A NEW ACCOUNT* here.


Fixed it


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Fixed it


The thought crossed my mind...and I wouldn't be surprised.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

cwren2472 said:


> Fixed it


OP is a bigger troll than Charles


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## DeVries (Nov 27, 2007)

Close this thread please


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> It isn't barbed, so I'm good.


Nevermind...


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Let’s start again...What are the real world costs of brine If salt is $125 a ton...Let’s not forget all the other costs....OP the floor is yours..


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

cwren2472 said:


> Was that 11 cents calculated using coal or propane for the boiling?


Natural gas is a better alternative than both those...Better for the environment also


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Defcon 5 said:


> Let's start again...What are the real world costs of brine If salt is $125 a ton...Let's not forget all the other costs....OP the floor is yours..


To add to this.....
Location / area of country and weather conditions play into what is needed to get positive results with minimal material or liquid usage.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

BUFF said:


> To add to this.....
> Location / area of country and weather conditions play into what is needed to get positive results with minimal material or liquid usage.


You are correct Buffy...My mistake...I guess you have proved once again how your superior to a Silverback...


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

BossPlow2010 said:


> What have you been using in the past?


Granular but Ive been hearing about how brine can be more cost efficient. If so, im also considering building a company that supplies it.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

how about we give the guy and thread a chance and let's have a real discussion and not ruin it with uncalled for comments


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Defcon 5 said:


> Natural gas is a better alternative than both those...Better for the environment also


Calculated using a brine machine with salt being around $80 per ton.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Thebrineguy said:


> Granular but Ive been hearing about how brine can be more cost efficient. If so, im also considering building a company that supplies it.


There are companies that just pump it out of the ground.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> how about we give the guy and thread a chance and let's have a real discussion and not ruin it with uncalled for comments


Agreed...as long as he can be more forthcoming and truthful.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> If this is true, how do you know the cost to produce it?
> 
> What happens if there isn't salt available to make brine?
> 
> ...


It does't include all if that. These numbers are based off questions I interviewed various landscaping companies and brine machine suppliers with.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Agreed...as long as he can be more forthcoming and truthful.


Truthful? My father has about 2 acres of land and its my chore to service it. I use a small team sometimes however, I think if brine is more affordable than granular, I can make a whole business out of it to sell to people.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> It does't include all if that. These numbers are based off questions I interviewed various landscaping companies and brine machine suppliers with.


So your or their cost is not $.11/gallon.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> Truthful? My father has about 2 acres of land and its my chore to service it. I use a small team sometimes however, I think if brine is more affordable than granular, I can make a whole business out of it to sell to people.


That's being truthful and how you should have started.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So your or their cost is not $.11/gallon.


Well that's to produce it generally. No one has answered how many gallons it typically takes to cover an acre though. Geez, a lot of you guys are getting butthurt or offended and I simply asked 3 questions.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> Well that's to produce it generally. No one has answered how many gallons it typically takes to cover an acre though. Geez, a lot of you guys are getting butthurt or offended and I simply asked 3 questions.


Because the last guy asking about liquids started off similarly. Asked lots of questions without providing any details about himself. Would never answer any questions asked of him. He also insisted he had to boil water to create brine.

Then you show up, asking questions and not telling us anything about yourself and it raises some red flags.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> That's being truthful and how you should have started.


How was i not being honest in the first place? I said i was non union and i take care of my acres.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

How much driveway do you have on 2 acres that it would even be worth dealing with brine? Or is it a 2 acre commercial lot or something?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> How was i not being honest in the first place? I said i was non union and i take care of my acres.


That wasn't your first post.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

LapeerLandscape said:


> There are companies that just pump it out of the ground.


Really? Like salt water?


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Because the last guy asking about liquids started off similarly. Asked lots of questions without providing any details about himself. Would never answer any questions asked of him. He also insisted he had to boil water to create brine.
> 
> Then you show up, asking questions and not telling us anything about yourself and it raises some red flags.


Oohhhhhh. Ok. Well my name is Brett, I have to take care of about 2 acres for my dad but I like it so much, i was thinking of starting a business that sells brine. This is only if I can produce and sell brine at a lower cost than granular salts. From what ive seen and learned so far, it takes anywhere from a 1/2 ton to a ton of granular salt to cover an acre once with that salt costing anywhere from $75-$100 per ton. Now I see that a gallon of brine is abour 2.3lbs of salt which means that for every ton of salt, I can make about 870 gallons of brine and I asked a company about their brine and they said it takes about 90 gallons to cover an acre. If this is true, then its more cost efficient than granular but Im here to confirm if this is true or not because another company told me one gallon only covers 40sqft. Big jump from 90 gallons covering an acre.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

JMHConstruction said:


> How much driveway do you have on 2 acres that it would even be worth dealing with brine? Or is it a 2 acre commercial lot or something?


Its a commercial property that sits on 2 acres of grassless land. Also have 2 acres of grass near his house which im tending to until winter but with the factory, I asked if I could take care of it and I want to be ready before the snowfall hits. Are my calculations correct?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

There's what, 40ish thousand sqft in an acre. If I had to guess, I don't think many are driving around with a 1,000 gallon tanks and refilling every acre.

That last number is way off.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Thebrineguy said:


> Really? Like salt water?


Yes, have you ever seen a dirt road get chloride put on it.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Thebrineguy said:


> Its a commercial property that sits on 2 acres of grassless land. Also have 2 acres of grass near his house which im tending to until winter but with the factory, I asked if I could take care of it and I want to be ready before the snowfall hits. Are my calculations correct?


I'm lost here, what are you treating with brine then? Is this just a random business idea?

I have never used brine, so I'm not much help on this one.

Edit: I reread that, I think I miss understood. There is a building with a parking lot that sits on 2 acres, correct? If not, you'll have to explain this to me. I was in the hot sun all day:laugh:


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Defcon 5 said:


> You are correct Buffy...My mistake...I guess you have proved once again how your superior to a Silverback...


We're all here to build off of other members feedback and share some along the way.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Thebrineguy said:


> Really? Like salt water?


http://naturesownsource.com


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Yes, have you ever seen a dirt road get chloride put on it.


I haven't noticed it but when talking to a company that sells the product Liqoderm (or something like that) they said calcium chloride is used on dirt roads to keep the dust down. I had no idea!


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

To be honest use the search box on the site. All the information you will find very easy. Two acres of lot is nothing that’s a hours work. If you need help writing a business plan you need to do all your own homework


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

fireside said:


> To be honest use the search box on the site. All the information you will find very easy. Two acres of lot is nothing that's a hours work. If you need help writing a business plan you need to do all your own homework


Fair. I started using the search box shortly after I made the post. Thanks


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## lawnboy (Jul 28, 2000)

Ive used brine in the past. I find it a huge waste of time. If you are using it on one site and have a refill tank on site it possibly could save you money. However the opportunity cost of servicing another site during refill is not worth the headache. However I do think treating the salt has its benefits sometimes. So to answer your question it can be cheaper to lay brine per acre if you take it for what it is on paper. However even at this years salt prices granular is way easier, cleaner, and works much better in 99% of the storms. In the end its less call backs and better results. Just my opinion.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

lawnboy said:


> Ive used brine in the past. I find it a huge waste of time. If you are using it on one site and have a refill tank on site it possibly could save you money. However the opportunity cost of servicing another site during refill is not worth the headache. However I do think treating the salt has its benefits sometimes. So to answer your question it can be cheaper to lay brine per acre if you take it for what it is on paper. However even at this years salt prices granular is way easier, cleaner, and works much better in 99% of the storms. In the end its less call backs and better results. Just my opinion.


Why do you say granular WORKS better exactly? What about granular works so much better than the liquid version?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> Why do you say granular WORKS better exactly? What about granular works so much better than the liquid version?


Granular has no limitations. Liquids do.

Also, I believe what he is saying is one truckload of salt goes much further than 1 truckload of brine.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Granular has no limitations. Liquids do.
> 
> Also, I believe what he is saying is one truckload of salt goes much further than 1 truckload of brine.


What are the limitations that liquid has that granular doesnt?

And i thought that liquid wasnt too far behind in terms of coverage because 1 gallon of liquid deicer can cover about 480sqft where a pound of granular can cover 500sqft. But a pound of granular would cost about .20cents and 1 gallon of liquid costs closer to .15 cents.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> What are the limitations that liquid has that granular doesnt?


High moisture content snow. Long duration events. Freezing rain.

As for the coverage, lots of people say that. I guess they're better at it than I am because I've never seen it work. The math doesn't work.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> High moisture content snow. Long duration events. Freezing rain.
> 
> As for the coverage, lots of people say that. I guess they're better at it than I am because I've never seen it work. The math doesn't work.


You've never seen it work as in you've used it and it hasnt been effective? Or you've just never seen it in action?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Thebrineguy said:


> What are the limitations that liquid has that granular doesnt?
> 
> And i thought that liquid wasnt too far behind in terms of coverage because 1 gallon of liquid deicer can cover about 480sqft where a pound of granular can cover 500sqft. But a pound of granular would cost about .20cents and 1 gallon of liquid costs closer to .15 cents.


87 pounds of rock salt per acre? Are you melting snow and ice in July in Florida?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> You've never seen it work as in you've used it and it hasnt been effective? Or you've just never seen it in action?


I started using liquids around '01. They're nothing new.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Right. That's what I like about them. They've had years of trial and error. Im very new to this so how many sqft would you say 1lb of granular is good for vs what 1 gallon of liquid deicer is good for?


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I started using liquids around '01. They're nothing new.





Thebrineguy said:


> Right. That's what I like about them. They've had years of trial and error. Im very new to this so how many sqft would you say 1lb of granular is good for vs what 1 gallon of liquid deicer is good for?


Im just trying to get a clear and straighforward answer.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

There is no true answer to that question. It depends on lots of things. do some more research like snow ratios 10/1 15/1 and so on all require different amounts and handling


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> Im just trying to get a clear and straighforward answer.


When using brine, you need to remember that somewhere between 68 and 77% is water. At roughly 10# per gallon for brine, you're only applying 3-4# of actual chloride. You can do the math from there. Considering 10# of granular is basically 10# of actual chloride. I know, there's some dirt mixed in but it's negligible.


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> When using brine, you need to remember that somewhere between 68 and 77% is water. At roughly 10# per gallon for brine, you're only applying 3-4# of actual chloride. You can do the math from there. Considering 10# of granular is basically 10# of actual chloride. I know, there's some dirt mixed in but it's negligible.


I see, so if granular is so more more potent. Why do people even use liquid calcium chloride for deicing? Like whats even the point?


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

its about putting it down in its finished state. Granular needs to turn into brine to work!! so it needs water to start the process. There is a cost saving to using it also. I like it for pre treatment because I can spray days in advance vs granular needs to go down just before or as snow is just starting.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thebrineguy said:


> I see, so if granular is so more more potent. Why do people even use liquid calcium chloride for deicing? Like whats even the point?


First of all, people need to start specifying what kind of brine. Brine is a generic term. Could be calcium, sodium or mag or a mixture of all 3 with varying percentages.

There are definite advantages to calcium brine. Same advantages as using calcium in a solid form. There are also disadvantages.

A general location would be helpful, pretty sure it's been requested.


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## lawnboy (Jul 28, 2000)

Works better as mark said its more potent. In my experience if you have a light dusting brine can be beneficial or to treat salt . Also on those extreme cold days where salt isnt working you can pour brine to melt certain areas. However it is not cost effective at all as the the gallons needed are triple if not more. If you are in the business of selling salt services and not quality you can sell 2 times as many services with brine because the refreeze is crazy. Where the real loser is in brine is when you are doing multiple sites and you need to constantly come back to refill. A salt truck can do way more sites in a way quicker time frame. Also in my experience the customer never is as happy with brine as it simply doesnt work as well as salt. Now if you are like fireside and can get people to pay to pretreat that is a whole different story. Real tough sell though. There is a guy by us that uses only brine and the is a significant difference in sites. I actually talked to one of his customers the other day and they had 12 slip and falls last year.



Thebrineguy said:


> Why do you say granular WORKS better exactly? What about granular works so much better than the liquid version?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

lawnboy said:


> Also on those extreme cold days where salt isnt working you can pour brine to melt certain areas. However it is not cost effective at all as the the gallons needed are triple if not more.


Depends on the type of brine. Or product.

I've had customers ask me why their lot is bare when the roads are covered in ice and snow and the media is repeating the BS from the county road commission stating it's too cold for salt to work.



lawnboy said:


> If you are in the business of selling salt services and not quality you can sell 2 times as many services with brine because the refreeze is crazy.


This is not true in all situations and with all types of brine.



lawnboy said:


> A salt truck can do way more sites in a way quicker time frame.


With our equipment, we can actually apply liquids faster than salting. But again, the liquids don't go as far.



lawnboy said:


> Also in my experience the customer never is as happy with brine as it simply doesnt work as well as salt.


Depending on conditions, if used correctly, liquids work faster and provide a better result. Just not in every situation.


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## lawnboy (Jul 28, 2000)

One more thing. To sell the product you are competing against some pretty big guys that sell cheap. I know a guy down here has it out of an oil well and its like 20 cents a gallon delivered. He has millions of dollars invested into trucking and such and is contracted by all the counties. That doesnt leave a lot of profit margin to go into business over and try and compete.


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## lawnboy (Jul 28, 2000)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Depends on the type of brine. Or product.
> 
> I've had customers ask me why their lot is bare when the roads are covered in ice and snow and the media is repeating the BS from the county road commission stating it's too cold for salt to work.
> 
> ...


We can agree to disagree.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

lawnboy said:


> We can agree to disagree.


That we can, I'm just saying experiences are different and what you have found to be true is not necessarily what another has.


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## lawnboy (Jul 28, 2000)

exactly why I put in my experience. The ultimate question I think the post has is whether or not he should go into business of making brine to sell to people right? I think it would be impossible to compete. "just my opinion"


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> A general location would be helpful, pretty sure it's been requested.


I am betting it is somewhere near the Catskill Mountains in New York...


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

I think he needs real world expectancies for ice and snow control. When you are out with your boots on the pavement and signing the checks you learn very quick what works and didn’t work. 

Liquids do work at the right time and place. Like I have said I like prevtreatment only post magic salt all the way. It done once but, a bribe mix with 5% IBG makes it work much faster with less salt for post applicatiin


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## Thebrineguy (Aug 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> First of all, people need to start specifying what kind of brine. Brine is a generic term. Could be calcium, sodium or mag or a mixture of all 3 with varying percentages.
> 
> There are definite advantages to calcium brine. Same advantages as using calcium in a solid form. There are also disadvantages.
> 
> A general location would be helpful, pretty sure it's been requested.


Oh sorry, Pennsylvania (Philadelphia, West Chester, Harrisburg areas generally).

So what are these advantages to calcium brine over solid? I've read the disadvantages that people posted.


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