# Which de-icer to use?



## silvetouch (Jul 29, 2004)

I keep experimenting with different ice melt products to use and i am still not sure which is the best to use for the money.

what has everyone else found to be the most effective on sidewalks with out using a straight calcium chloride or Peladow?

- Thanks


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

http://www.earthserviceandsupply.com/html/baggedicemelt.html

Either of the Reaction products.


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

Subscribed


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

silvetouch;913232 said:


> I keep experimenting with different ice melt products to use and i am still not sure which is the best to use for the money.
> 
> what has everyone else found to be the most effective on sidewalks with out using a straight calcium chloride or Peladow?
> 
> - Thanks


I will ask you the same thing I ask all our prospective clients:

"What do you need your deicer to do, and what will your budget allow?"

Answer that question, and that will establish a baseline to work with. A quick "cheat sheet" version is this: CHEAP (rock salt, 5°) <--------> EXPENSIVE (calcium chloride, -25°)

Figure out a few basic needs, and the rest is easy.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

toby4492;919880 said:


> Subscribed


I like colorful packaging.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

toby4492;919880 said:


> Subscribed


Me Too...Im In..xysport


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;919874 said:


> OK, finally found a website that talks a lot about Magco, but says nothing.
> 
> Here's a quote: "As our company continues to grow, so to does our product line: in the Fall of 2008 we will unveil EarthGuard™, an earth-friendly ice melter in *beautiful full-color packaging designed to appeal *to the millions of customers searching for a "greener" alternative.
> 
> ...


Well put Mark...You could take the Pretty package after you are done spreading the contents and lay it over the ice....


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

Matson Snow;920721 said:


> Well put Mark...You could take the Pretty package after you are done spreading the contents and lay it over the ice....


LMFAO :laughing:
Thats sig material right there 
I like the bags with volcano's on them 

IMHDAO seems the prettier the bag is, the higher the percentage of sodium. 
The Envirotech cal bags are as lame as it gets, but the stuff works...


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## silvetouch (Jul 29, 2004)

Westhardt Corp.;920015 said:


> I will ask you the same thing I ask all our prospective clients:
> 
> "What do you need your deicer to do, and what will your budget allow?"
> 
> ...


Most of the time temps are in the 20° to close to the freezing mark when we apply deicer. i want to be able to put an application down either after i shovel or when there is up to around a 1/4" of snow and it melt. I tried some product last year (can't remember the name) and it didn't do much of anything. When i went back and read the packaging, i remember it saying something like "shovel, then apply, then shovel excess slush away, etc etc etc...."

I will use calcium if absolutely necessary if temps. call for it. Also, i don't want something that is cheap if it doesn't work either. 
hope that answers your questions.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Was it I-P-Y sodium chloride? It's been hard to find lately.....


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

silvetouch;921415 said:


> Most of the time temps are in the 20° to close to the freezing mark when we apply deicer. i want to be able to put an application down either after i shovel or when there is up to around a 1/4" of snow and it melt. I tried some product last year (can't remember the name) and it didn't do much of anything. When i went back and read the packaging, i remember it saying something like "shovel, then apply, then shovel excess slush away, etc etc etc...."
> 
> I will use calcium if absolutely necessary if temps. call for it. Also, i don't want something that is cheap if it doesn't work either.
> hope that answers your questions.


Temperature wise, it would seem that plain old rock should work pretty well in those temps, unless there's a detail missing here? My rule of thumb for "exotic" chemicals is "only as much as you need--no more." Rarely is more better, in fact most times I see ridiculous over-applications of calcium or magnesium by guys who don't really understand how the chemicals work. The days of "Calcium is best, pour it on!" are long gone. We know now how the different chemicals can benefit one another, and we have some more recent developments to consider as well--sugar (the "magic" ingredient, so to speak--also how beet juice, Ice Ban and Ice B Gone (aka: Magic O) work, but the proportions must be right on. It's more complicated than this, but just an example)

The basic goal is to get a good brine, and rock is still a good starting point unless you have special circumstances like extreme temperatures, corrosion or damage to adjacent turf/plants. As far as bagged blends go, a few that we've had excellent results with are Morton's Pro Grade (90/10 rock/cal, pretty cheap--$7 bag or less for truckloads) for typical colder weather or for lowering your refreeze point. Advertised to -15°, for comparison's sake.
http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/road_sidewalk/ice_melter_PG.html

Industrial Melt by Scotwood (Road Runner in a generic bag--no joke), also around $7 truckload, but contains pot & mag also. Advertised to -15°.

http://www.scotwoodindustries.com/pageprodindustrialstrength.htm

The product we recommend most often is the Natural Alternative product by NaturaLawn, and mostly because landscapers *love* it for spring clean up, or lack thereof. An actual blended crystal treated with a blended liquid makes for a unique product that works quickly in above zero (advertised to -12°), doesn't refreeze easily, and is super gentle on the greenery. Another bonus is no "goo" or tracking of "goo" since there are no straight cal or mag pellets. A mid-priced product ($9-ish for truckloads), the cost is offset by the lower application rate--as long as you have guys using it that understand that.

https://store.naturalawn.com/shared/content/Product_pdfs/Ice Melt Benefits.pdf
https://store.naturalawn.com/shared/content/Product_pdfs/Ice Melt FAQs.pdf

There are so many blends out there, it can be really confusing to sort through them all. That's why I try to get as much information as possible on the products we offer, so that we can answer questions with actual _answers_ rather than semi-educated guesses.

Hope this helps!!


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Bajak;921471 said:


> Was it I-P-Y sodium chloride? It's been hard to find lately.....


I heard sodium chloride is on back order...??


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## silvetouch (Jul 29, 2004)

Westhardt Corp.;921498 said:


> Temperature wise, it would seem that plain old rock should work pretty well in those temps, unless there's a detail missing here? My rule of thumb for "exotic" chemicals is "only as much as you need--no more." Rarely is more better, in fact most times I see ridiculous over-applications of calcium or magnesium by guys who don't really understand how the chemicals work. The days of "Calcium is best, pour it on!" are long gone. We know now how the different chemicals can benefit one another, and we have some more recent developments to consider as well--sugar (the "magic" ingredient, so to speak--also how beet juice, Ice Ban and Ice B Gone (aka: Magic O) work, but the proportions must be right on. It's more complicated than this, but just an example)
> 
> The basic goal is to get a good brine, and rock is still a good starting point unless you have special circumstances like extreme temperatures, corrosion or damage to adjacent turf/plants. As far as bagged blends go, a few that we've had excellent results with are Morton's Pro Grade (90/10 rock/cal, pretty cheap--$7 bag or less for truckloads) for typical colder weather or for lowering your refreeze point. Advertised to -15°, for comparison's sake.
> http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/road_sidewalk/ice_melter_PG.html
> ...


sorry, i forgot to include in my original post that the contracts specifically say NO rock salt on sidewalks.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Ah yes--missing detail. For that I would try the Natural Alternative product. We sell a lot of this for sidewalk use, as it doesn't track like cal or mag, but doesn't hurt vegetation or concrete like straight rock salt. No white residue either (the telltale rock salt trace) unless you just dump piles of it on. Also, because it has a smaller sizing (2.2mm, to be exact) it doesn't resemble rock salt, either. I have found that particle size plays a significant factor is what people perceive as rock salt ("rock salt is big chunky stuff"), so that's something to consider with any deicer, but I don't know what's available in your area.


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## silvetouch (Jul 29, 2004)

Westhardt Corp.;921506 said:


> Ah yes--missing detail. For that I would try the Natural Alternative product. We sell a lot of this for sidewalk use, as it doesn't track like cal or mag, but doesn't hurt vegetation or concrete like straight rock salt. No white residue either (the telltale rock salt trace) unless you just dump piles of it on. Also, because it has a smaller sizing (2.2mm, to be exact) it doesn't resemble rock salt, either. I have found that particle size plays a significant factor is what people perceive as rock salt ("rock salt is big chunky stuff"), so that's something to consider with any deicer, but I don't know what's available in your area.


Yeah, i was thinking that or the roadrunner generic that you have. How does that stuff compare?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

The Road Runner/Industrial Strength product is not going to be as easy on the turf, and may track somewhat due to the solid cal and mag pellets. But, it does carry a lower price, which does play part in the decision, of course. Also worth mentioning is that anything with solid cal pellets may "roll away" if spread too aggressively or too fast. Calcium pellets are little white BBs, and they will roll....and roll....and roll. I thought it sounded a bit exaggerated until I paid closer attention when spreading it--it really does keep right on going until it runs into something (usually something your *don't* want calcium on, LOL).


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Also, the Industrial is all white, versus the NaturaLawn is green. Trivial, but worth mentioning for sake of visibility and perception by the people.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Westhardt Corp.;921498 said:


> We know now how the different chemicals can benefit one another, and we have some more recent developments to consider as well--sugar (the "magic" ingredient, so to speak--*also how beet juice, Ice Ban and Ice B Gone (aka: Magic O) *work, but the proportions must be right on. It's more complicated than this, but just an example).


Careful, those are NOT the same products. Being in the industry you should know that.

One of them has a huge difference over the others.

1000 points for the one who can tell me which one and what makes it different.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;921928 said:


> Careful, those are NOT the same products. Being in the industry you should know that.
> 
> One of them has a huge difference over the others.
> 
> 1000 points for the one who can tell me which one and what makes it different.


Beet juice is diff as far as I know. The other 2 have mag chloride in the mix.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jomama45;921974 said:


> Beet juice is diff as far as I know. The other 2 have mag chloride in the mix.


1000 points to Joe!

You are the wiener!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :salute:  xysport :redbounce

Congratulations

PS Now you're going to start scaring away the other posters like I am, apparently.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;921928 said:


> Careful, those are NOT the same products. Being in the industry you should know that.
> 
> One of them has a huge difference over the others.
> 
> 1000 points for the one who can tell me which one and what makes it different.


No, they are not the same--wasn't implying that at all, sorry if it appeared that way. I was referring to the common denominator in those products--sugar (of varying origins), and that in the correct proportions has been proven to accentuate basic rock salt.

Of interest though, Magic-O's MSDS... http://www.magicsalt.info/ZeroSafetyData.pdf ...manufactured by Sears Petroleum & Transport Co.

Sears Petro's' website: www.seaco.com (g'head and click it)

Interesting, no?

Also, on the mag front, Ice Ban 100 is straight (no mag, and kinda like syrup really, and good for pre-treat), whereas Ice Ban 200 is mag based (still pretty thick to use by itself), Ice Ban 250 is simply IB 200 cut w/mag (50/50, and easier to work with as a result), Ice Ban 305 is a mag blend as well. Melting Point is a 95/5 mag/IB 100 (whenever it comes out).
http://www.earthfriendlychemicals.com/store/iceban.html

So yes, many of the varieties have mag in them, but that was not my point. It's all about the sugars in this case. And it works well, but a lot of folks are still not convinced, especially when you have dealers charging huge premiums for it.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;922046 said:


> 1000 points to Joe!
> 
> *Awesome, that & $15.00 should buy me a cheap case of beer!!!!!!!!*
> 
> ...


Easyyyyyyyyyyyyyy there, don't go grouping me in with you now!! :realmad:

I'm impressed w/ Westhardt, he came back strong. He seems to know WTF he's talking about. But I think he may have taken some of what you directed at him the wrong way. I can't imagine how that could happen!?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

LOL, thank you, and not at all. I've been around the "internet forum block" a few times--it comes with the territory. It is very easy to misconstrue what you read, because there is no tone of voice, no body language. All you have to go on are the words in front of you, and it leaves a lot of room for interpretation. IMHO if you can't deal with a little "individual interpretation", you are probably not cut out to post regularly in a forum of people whom you cannot BS, for they will call you on it..._right now._


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm sort of depressed, I see cory visited back on the 29th of Dec but didn't take the time to enlighten us on Magco. 

I really didn't mean to scare you away, and I really would like a reply. 

I wonder if it's me and the way I reply that scares everyone off? 

Or gets their B\P skyrocketing? 
















Nah, couldn't be.


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## kipcom (Feb 3, 2001)

knowledge of what you are putting down as a de-icer is very important...basic solids are Potassium, Sodium, Calcium and Magnesium of these 4 you need to know what ones need "friction" to activate and which ones create their own "friction" to create heat. >> The faster the molicules move once mixed with water, the more "heat" is generated causing the melting action. You also have to produce enough heat to generate evaporation thus completing the thawing cycle.

KNOWLEDGE = power to sell to your customers a fantastic service backed by your knowledge of the product.


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## silvetouch (Jul 29, 2004)

kipcom;947185 said:


> knowledge of what you are putting down as a de-icer is very important...basic solids are Potassium, Sodium, Calcium and Magnesium of these 4 you need to know what ones need "friction" to activate and which ones create their own "friction" to create heat. >> The faster the molicules move once mixed with water, the more "heat" is generated causing the melting action. You also have to produce enough heat to generate evaporation thus completing the thawing cycle.
> 
> KNOWLEDGE = power to sell to your customers a fantastic service backed by your knowledge of the product.


Would you care to elaborate on which one do what? thanks


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

silvetouch;947386 said:


> Would you care to elaborate on which one do what? thanks


Two words: endothermic and exothermic

How's that Mike?


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## silvetouch (Jul 29, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;947434 said:


> Two words: endothermic and exothermic
> 
> How's that Mike?


funny. Really just trying to see which products work best.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

silvetouch;947492 said:


> funny. Really just trying to see which products work best.


Sorry, wasn't supposed to be funny, only factual as apparently some people have little to no sense of humor.

I apologize for any humor that was taken from that post.

Mag and calcium are exo and sodium and potash are endo. I hope it isn't derogatory, but potash is pretty much worthless as a deicer.


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## Tony717 (Dec 1, 2009)

A similar environmentally friendly, salt alternative (it is sodium acetate) is a some of the stuff that Midwest Industries offers (http://www.midwestind.com/antiicefreezing.htm). Good prices, good stuff.



> I wonder if it's me and the way I reply that scares everyone off?


Your responses terrify the living day lights out of me.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

That sounds pretty cost effective. Mix it with beAt juice, and you have _thee_ next million dollar idea.

:laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Tony717;953331 said:


> A similar environmentally friendly, salt alternative (it is sodium acetate) is a some of the stuff that Midwest Industries offers (http://www.midwestind.com/antiicefreezing.htm). Good prices, good stuff.
> 
> Isn't sodium acetate that really expensive stuff that just turns snow\ice into mush that needs to be mechanically removed?
> 
> Your responses terrify the living day lights out of me.


You hurt my feelings, why would you say a thing like that?


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