# National Provider venting



## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

I have and continue to read a lot about a few bad national service providers. A lot of venting about them is placed on this forum and it is a good place to do so as well it tends to relive stress.

Here is suggestion; those of you that are not getting paid or not getting response to your issues band together, seek legal counsel as a group and consider a class action lawsuit naming the national provider and the actual recipients of your service. You offer a time sensitive and often a critically needed service and should be treated like such. Involving media as suggested in a different thread is also a great idea.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Was it ForgetpaymentandSon


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

I am not involved with nationals but am concerned how some of them treat their contractors so I offered a suggestion. If I was involved I would spearhead.


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

Isn't it funny how many threads there are about them? I guess you need to get burned before you walk away. I can't say I had horrible experiances with nationals, but I declined to sign the contract when I saw the writing on the wall. I think thats good advice Herm!


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Herm Witte;1962136 said:


> I am not involved with nationals but am concerned how some of them treat their contractors so I offered a suggestion. If I was involved I would spearhead.


Sorry I was reading it wrong I thought you had a problem

I stayed away from one

I work for others and getting paid

But if you was involved with that one you seen and signed the contract you cant put a lien on them. They look and find always making it your fault for not getting paid.
1 guy on here done a lot and not sure he ever got all his money.

Hit the search button find his thread and post your suggestion there see if it helps.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

We've done several hundred thousand dollars worth of work over the past 4+ seasons for a few nationals and have been paid in full within 30-45 days (per contract) but then again we are able to operate phones, computers, and smart phones and keep good track of our work (not rocket science) so I guess I'll have to sit this one out...


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Longae29;1962160 said:


> We've done several hundred thousand dollars worth of work over the past 4+ seasons for a few nationals and have been paid in full within 30-45 days (per contract) but then again we are able to operate phones, computers, and smart phones and keep good track of our work (not rocket science) so I guess I'll have to sit this one out...


Are those the number 1 reason's so many others are not getting paid on time or at all? I've often wondered if some guys just aren't doing a good job with submitting the proper info at the proper times. IDK as I've never worked for a national, nor would I ever.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

WIPensFan;1962163 said:


> Are those the number 1 reason's so many others are not getting paid on time or at all? I've often wondered if some guys just aren't doing a good job with submitting the proper info at the proper times. IDK as I've never worked for a national, nor would I ever.


I firmly believe so. There are a list of things you need to do to be in compliance, cert of insurance in file, w9, etc then comply with how they want the service reported be it phone call, email, app, website, none of its difficult but you have to do it 2 weeks down the road you can't be like "yeah I plowed der da udder day" you think corporate sites go for that? Heck no. Do what's asked get paid, that's my experience.

....and get waivers signed for parts of their contract you won't tolerate. Yeah. That happens.


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## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

Longae29;1962170 said:


> I firmly believe so. There are a list of things you need to do to be in compliance, cert of insurance in file, w9, etc then comply with how they want the service reported be it phone call, email, app, website, none of its difficult but you have to do it 2 weeks down the road you can't be like "yeah I plowed der da udder day" you think corporate sites go for that? Heck no. Do what's asked get paid, that's my experience.
> 
> ....and get waivers signed for parts of their contract you won't tolerate. Yeah. That happens.


Yes I bet you are pretty much bang on there for 90% of the problems encountered by folks.

Now if they would just pay market rates... but you can't really blame the nationals for that can you.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

edgeair;1962339 said:


> Yes I bet you are pretty much bang on there for 90% of the problems encountered by folks.
> 
> Now if they would just pay market rates... but you can't really blame the nationals for that can you.


That's why we've never done any snow work for usm, their rates are terrible, they offer something low and then you can bid less to try and get the work. Weve proven ourselves as a quality company and have been able to negotiate fair pricing with the nsps we work WITH.

Edit: sorry for going off track. Evil! Evil! Evil! [Insert corny name here]


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Antlerart06;1962150 said:


> Sorry I was reading it wrong I thought you had a problem
> 
> I stayed away from one
> 
> ...


I feel another headache coming on.....


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;1962352 said:


> I feel another headache coming on.....


Maybe it's the beers I've had but that's pretty darn funny. As far as the national guys go we've decided we aren't going to be doing business with them. It sounds great till you start reading the contract and then hearing how guys aren't getting paid on time if at all. I could loose money sitting on the sofa. I don't need to work at going broke


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Herm Witte;1962033 said:


> Here is suggestion; those of you that are not getting paid or not getting response to your issues band together, seek legal counsel as a group and consider a class action lawsuit naming the national provider and the actual recipients of your service.


Good honest suggestion, but the issue is that none of us were ever under the very same contract for the same exact accounts with the same terms as the next guy...

Company abc plows a supermarket for x terms and is owed money at end of season.

Company xyz plows a bank for x terms seasonal and is in a dispute for serviced rendered.

I've discussed this at length in the past, sure ONE attorney functioning in ONE state with ONE NSP could handle ALL cases brought against that NSP, but My attorney can't do much more than your attorney in another state.

I honestly think some attorneys should list their listing on Plowsite and similar sites and ADVERTISE taking on cases against specific companies...

You've seen the commercials before, have you taken viagra and had an erection lasting longer than 6 hours? lol. Well you get the point, but there are always attorneys who specialize in something very specific because they handle the same type of case against the same company over and over.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Longae29;1962170 said:


> I firmly believe so. There are a list of things you need to do to be in compliance, cert of insurance in file, w9, etc then comply with how they want the service reported be it phone call, email, app, website, none of its difficult but you have to do it 2 weeks down the road you can't be like "yeah I plowed der da udder day" you think corporate sites go for that? Heck no. Do what's asked get paid, that's my experience.
> 
> ....and get waivers signed for parts of their contract you won't tolerate. Yeah. That happens.


Or some like Ferrandino just lie about things halfway into a season... but i agree, most have so many steps between doing the work , billing for it and waiting to get paid, that you almost CANT get paid.

How about this, some states you can have "6 months snow insurance policies".

So our cert to them is written for say 11/2012 to 5/2013 ... guess what happens when THEY don't pay you in full by 5/2013.. they had the nerve to notify us that our payment did not go out on a Friday in MAY 2013, because we were not in compliance, took us 3 days and multiple phone calls only to be told they cleared it and check will go out next friday.

They actually expected us to get the policy renewed AFTER our contracted period, which was not how the contract was written.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Ramairfreak98ss;1962476 said:


> Good honest suggestion, but the issue is that none of us were ever under the very same contract for the same exact accounts with the same terms as the next guy...
> 
> Company abc plows a supermarket for x terms and is owed money at end of season.
> 
> ...


Did you ever get all your money


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1962352 said:


> I feel another headache coming on.....


he hehe he


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Longae29;1962160 said:


> We've done several hundred thousand dollars worth of work over the past 4+ seasons for a few nationals and have been paid in full within 30-45 days (per contract) but then again we are able to operate phones, computers, and smart phones and keep good track of our work (not rocket science) so I guess I'll have to sit this one out...


Have you worked for Ferrindino???.....


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1962352 said:


> I feel another headache coming on.....


Pills must be wearing off..............


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Longae29;1962160 said:


> We've done several hundred thousand dollars worth of work over the past 4+ seasons for a few nationals and have been paid in full within 30-45 days (per contract) but then again we are able to operate phones, computers, and smart phones and keep good track of our work (not rocket science) so I guess I'll have to sit this one out...


Please in form us of names of these Nationals so we can all be on the look out to work with them....

Lipinski or what ever their name is now ......Suck

Ferrindino........Sucks Big Time

USM.....Sucks even Worse

Brickmann....No too Bad...

Dentco.......Sucks


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

We started working for one last fall, not one that has been mentioned above. The dollar amount I would say is well above industry average (surprisingly), they don't pay net 30 but not too far out and you do have to do a little more paper work. All in all its a good account, as for these ones mentioned above I think I would stay clear, just too much negative input on here for me.


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## MK97 (Oct 9, 2013)

LapeerLandscape;1962903 said:


> We started working for one last fall, not one that has been mentioned above. The dollar amount I would say is well above industry average (surprisingly), they don't pay net 30 but not too far out and you do have to do a little more paper work. All in all its a good account, as for these ones mentioned above I think I would stay clear, just too much negative input on here for me.


Which national is that? Seems Brickman so far is the only one worth even a consideration.


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## Oxmow (Dec 6, 2006)

I talked to an attorney about a class action suit against a group that built a building that I landscaped. The owners reneged on most of the trades after the building was done. Here's what he said:

If I take all of you on and the settlement is set then everybody has to agree on the payout percent. If one party to the payout disagrees then it all starts over.

Since I was a little fish 10% wasn't going to get me much out of the 1500 owed me. Some of the guys were over 50000.00.

I left it alone and wrote it off to bad debt...although the last time I went to the place and asked the owner to pay up...I told him that I would relieve him of some of his irrigation equipment he followed me out the door and video'd me driving away.

The bank forced him to forclosure and out of the property last year.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

Its too bad that there isn't a national association that backed legit snowplowing companies and helped them in situations such as these...

oh wait there's SIMA , 

oh my bad they would probably be on the wrong side of the table.

if they were on the right side of the table their membership
would grow 10 fold


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

tjlands;1969884 said:


> Its too bad that there isn't a national association that backed legit snowplowing companies and helped them in situations such as these...
> 
> oh wait there's SIMA ,
> 
> ...


The NSP's are members.

One of the first NSP's was started by one of the founders of SIMA.

That founder was one of or the first CSP.

That same founder violated the ethics statements that SIMA used to have and remains a CSP.

But hey, it's all good.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

I often wish that there was a site that ONLY contractors had access to that we could go to and black ball people or companies that give us payment issues. Kind of like being able to do a credit check before you do business with them. You would enter them into the site when they didn't pay and then before signing on a new customer, you could pull up the site, enter your contractor access code and then search by name or address. Any previous issues with either would come up and you could see what the past complaints against them were.

I would love to be able to go back up to the door and say sorry, you've been black balled and I won't work for you. My friends and I try to do a little of that here. When we have a customer mid season (lawn care) that we drop do to non-payment, we text each other their name and address, that way 2 days later when they call wanting us to come bid, we can say SEE YA.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;1969888 said:


> The NSP's are members.
> 
> One of the first NSP's was started by one of the founders of SIMA.
> 
> ...


Yes I knew that, and is a big reason why people don't join.
Or dont stay.
Wonder how membership is doing,
I personally know at least a dozen that did not renew 
after joining in the past.

by saying "used to have" has it changed or does it not apply to some people


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

okay and we will call it "derricksList"


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## BRL1 (Sep 13, 2014)

I totally agree with the paperwork and compliance statement. I have worked for f Dino for the last 4 years and have always had good luck with payment. Of course either me personally or my brother would be the ones doing their ivr system check ins, paperwork and site inspections. 
I can see how some people have problems getting paid. Mainly because they aren't like working for a normal site they have no way to make sure you actually did the work without doing the proper work they shouldn't pay you. I certainly wouldnt. Also it helps to build a relationship with the site managers and the account managers. Sometimes when you get a call from them your talking to the minions that don't know anything about your site or company ect. Talk to your account manager know who their higher ups are and you will be fine. 
Just my .02


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## john r (Jan 3, 2001)

Serv U Rite out of California did me good last season. After done plowing had the manager sign off on a "good job done", submit my bill and that was it. No crazy stupid catch ya to F%%% ya compliance BS with some technicality issue. ALWAYS paid within 30 days. That's a company I would bend over backwards for. You know, like a good friend. With NSP's you just bend over and be a spokes person for Vasaline. YOU have to be nuts to sign one of their contracts. All your rights as a contractor have been taken away. But hey, You can always fight it in court and give a good chunk of doe to your favorite lawyer.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

fireball;1970608 said:


> okay and we will call it "derricksList"


:laughing: How about DereksList?


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Defcon 5;1962638 said:


> Please in form us of names of these Nationals so we can all be on the look out to work with them....
> 
> Lipinski or what ever their name is now ......Suck
> 
> ...


x2 Dentco

x2 Lipenski


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

okay, but not a lot of pop ads from you in parka's, boots, gloves, and snow shovels claiming to be the plowboys friend


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

fireball;1970944 said:


> okay, but not a lot of pop ads from you in parka's, boots, gloves, and snow shovels claiming to be the plowboys friend


Ohhh man, come on..........OKKKK


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

OK, now I'm mad. 4am call this morning to "make sure our sites are good" wtf. Its hard enough to get a full night of sleep in this business. "Oh my god thank you for calling I almost forgot about our 30 sites" should have been my response. Give me a break.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Longae29;1972309 said:


> OK, now I'm mad. 4am call this morning to "make sure our sites are good" wtf. Its hard enough to get a full night of sleep in this business. "Oh my god thank you for calling I almost forgot about our 30 sites" should have been my response. Give me a break.


LOL, I do have an issue with providing all the paperwork\pictures\etc some require. I know there are crooks out there, but I'm not one of them. I am the 4th generation in my business. Over 80 years we've been servicing customers. We didn't stay in business that long by lying to customers about work not performed. Do we screw up? Sure, but overall, when they aren't getting complaints from customers and we had back to back to back snowfalls like last year, guess what? We're doing our jobs. I did have one that requested all the weather\service reports about a month into winter. No where was it stated in the contract or mentioned verbally before we started that we had to go through all the BS they wanted.

I have issues with people that don't self perform telling me how to do the job. I probably get too defensive, but when I've been doing the actual work for longer than most or all of these NSP's have been in business, it insults my intelligence when they think they know better.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

headache coming on


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Antlerart06;1972351 said:


> headache coming on


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

You don't even get it, do you?


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;1972323 said:


> LOL, I do have an issue with providing all the paperwork\pictures\etc some require. I know there are crooks out there, but I'm not one of them. I am the 4th generation in my business. Over 80 years we've been servicing customers. We didn't stay in business that long by lying to customers about work not performed. Do we screw up? Sure, but overall, when they aren't getting complaints from customers and we had back to back to back snowfalls like last year, guess what? We're doing our jobs. I did have one that requested all the weather\service reports about a month into winter. No where was it stated in the contract or mentioned verbally before we started that we had to go through all the BS they wanted.
> 
> I have issues with people that don't self perform telling me how to do the job. I probably get too defensive, but when I've been doing the actual work for longer than most or all of these NSP's have been in business, it insults my intelligence when they think they know better.


I too get defensive about our work and how its performed. The guy that called my cell phone at 4am today got a real ear full, for sure more than he was expecting, but I really don't care, theirs is only a small fraction of our business one that id take or leave, but its convenient. I too don't appreciate some of the documentation that's required honesty in workmanship and billing is something I strive for, to a fault sometimes? Probably. But along the way what has at least in part led to the nsp debacle currently going on is a total lack of integrity at at least a portion of a national chains locations. You know sweetheart deals were struck with a local managers buddy...


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;1972364 said:


> You don't even get it, do you?


 Just saying having Headache referring to whole thread

Figure it would make you jump :redbounce:redbounce


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Longae29;1972369 said:


> I too get defensive about our work and how its performed. The guy that called my cell phone at 4am today got a real ear full, for sure more than he was expecting, but I really don't care, theirs is only a small fraction of our business one that id take or leave, but its convenient. I too don't appreciate some of the documentation that's required honesty in workmanship and billing is something I strive for, to a fault sometimes? Probably. But along the way what has at least in part led to the nsp debacle currently going on is a total lack of integrity at at least a portion of a national chains locations. You know sweetheart deals were struck with a local managers buddy...


Turn off your phone simple


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Antlerart06;1972447 said:


> Turn off your phone simple


not so simple, do you have kids or elderly parents?
Shut if off and miss a real emergency?

phone on iggy then a 2nd call in 15 minutes gets threw.
(but you have ti tell them (family) to call twice)


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

SnoFarmer;1972457 said:


> not so simple, do you have kids or elderly parents?
> Shut if off and miss a real emergency?
> 
> phone on iggy then a 2nd call in 15 minutes gets threw.
> (but you have ti tell them (family) to call twice)


I wasn't the one complaining about phone call at 4am.
My Cell is the business 24/7 number. I'm fine with calls at what ever time the night it is emergency or non emergency its part of business.

Yep have kids even have grand kids I'm the elderly parent I fill like sometimes.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

You were the one who recommended he shut it off.

so it's not as simple as you say,, to, just shut it off.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Antlerart06;1972447 said:


> Turn off your phone simple


I would never turn my phone off from November-May. Missed emergency request for service = lost customer.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

Antlerart06;1972447 said:


> Turn off your phone simple


For some, our cell is our only phone. So with it off, people/family with legitimate emergencies can't get a hold of us, so that's not feasible.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Turning off a phone is just wrong, besides most phones have filters in them now.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

More excellent advice................


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

SnoFarmer;1972512 said:


> You were the one who recommended he shut it off.
> 
> so it's not as simple as you say,, to, just shut it off.


Yep I did, Deal with it nicely or turn it off simple.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I wonder how we all survived without cell phones and being able to be reached at all times. We did, and everything was fine. I think there is a new definition of "emergency" now, it means any situation, at any time.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Mark Oomkes;1972557 said:


> More excellent advice................


No headache Wow


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

WIPensFan;1972566 said:


> I wonder how we all survived without cell phones and being able to be reached at all times. We did, and everything was fine. I think there is a new definition of "emergency" now, it means any situation, at any time.


I agree.

I wish we could go back to pre-cell phone days. Life was so much simpler then.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;1972571 said:


> I agree.
> 
> I wish we could go back to pre-cell phone days. Life was so much simpler then.


yea, a CB base station at home and cb's in every rig.
soo much easier....
soo much missed work.....

when we go on vacation, we go to areas where there is no cell service....
Dam satellite phones and SPOT.

(SPOT Satellite Messenger)
SPOT works around the world, including virtually all of North America, South America, Europe and Australia, Northern Africa and Northeastern Asia, and hundreds or thousands of miles offshore of these areas.
http://www.outdoorsafetygps.com/spot-tracker-specifications.htm


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

WIPensFan;1972566 said:


> I wonder how we all survived without cell phones and being able to be reached at all times. We did, and everything was fine. I think there is a new definition of "emergency" now, it means any situation, at any time.


Unfortunately, we as a society have lost any sense of patience. We all want what we want, and we want it yesterday. Also, and even more importantly, most have lost any decency or compassion for anyone else. It's all about ME, ME, ME and screw everyone else.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

WIPensFan;1972566 said:


> I wonder how we all survived without cell phones and being able to be reached at all times. We did, and everything was fine. I think there is a new definition of "emergency" now, it means any situation, at any time.


Well Like Snofarmer said CB, I know I use to hire someone stay at the shop to answer phone calls all night/day and then get on the base tell one of the rigs where they need to go.
Now I still do the same but now the phone is on me and I don't run CBs run business band now.


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## john r (Jan 3, 2001)

Bring pack the beeper!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

john r;1973366 said:


> Bring pack the beeper!


You bring back the beeper, you need to bring back pay phones. lol


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;1973395 said:


> You bring back the beeper, you need to bring back pay phones. lol


I wish someone would bring back the disks in my back...


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