# what should i have charged?



## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

i put down 300 lbs of salt over a 1" thick ice pad on a drive. charged 65 bucks. cost me probably 40 in salt.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Why did you charge so little?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

grandview;1599123 said:


> Why did you charge so little?


At first i thought it was alot untill i realized how much salt it would actualy take. (i want my ballast back)

i guess what it comes down to is im just worried people wont want to pay if its a bigger price. seems to be how it is in Michigan.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

So you did the work first then told them how much.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

no. mentioned it as he left.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Is it one of your regular customers ?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

quigleysiding;1599129 said:


> Is it one of your regular customers ?


yea. and one im trying to impress. really want to keep him this summer again. he was dissapointed at a landscape job that took long. heat wave, break downs n such.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Should of spread it thinner. A little goes a long way.


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## MikeA5150 (Dec 20, 2010)

Around here if you salt for a regular plow customer its $225./ ton. Most plow contractors around here all charge the same and that can only be done if you're buying bulk.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

MikeA5150;1599141 said:


> Around here if you salt for a regular plow customer its $225./ ton. Most plow contractors around here all charge the same and that can only be done if you're buying bulk.


what is the price for bulk salt for you?


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## MikeA5150 (Dec 20, 2010)

I think this year its $40/ton.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

MikeA5150;1599152 said:


> I think this year its $40/ton.


WOW. im getting hosed on these bags


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

If you spent $40, then charge $120...,. Ok $100 on a deal...
If you have to ask, then maybe you shouldn't be do it... :laughing:


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## MikeA5150 (Dec 20, 2010)

We all are. If you had somewhere to store it you can save alot of money.You can get about 800lbs. in one of those wheeled trash cans from the local trash co. and fill a bunch of 5 gal buckets which are about 50lbs each...... I was wrong on price its between $65 and $70 but thats still a big savings.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Sounds like it would have been worth it if it was bulk


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## racer47 (Feb 24, 2011)

ussmileyflagi charge no less than 20 cents per pound, no more than 40 cents. depends if its bag rock salt . so 60.00 to 120.00 but thats southern ohio i can get 20 per bag for rock salt .. you cant pay the bill at the prices your chargeing, balk is not a option for me this year but thats where the money is . if your useing caleum cloride around 50 cents per pound up to 60 cents . but 300 lb on a driveway, it must be a long one


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

The way to impress the client is with quality work, at a price that's competitive but shows that you know your own costs. Now you come on here and ask if the price was correct, but honestly it doesn't matter because if he calls you again you can't charge 120 and tell him the guys on the internet said it was a better number. It's very important to know your costs up front because its so hard to raise prices these days. You might get a ton of work from this guy but it sounds like you'll go broke doing it. You've kind of lowered the bar for yourself with this client. I got screwed that way once, gave a low price on mowing with the promise of a bunch of landscaping work, they never did the landscape work and I still had to honor that price.


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## shovelracer (Sep 3, 2004)

You can't look at bulk as $40. Very few people have the ability to pay that. It's not like you can order up a load to your place at that price. Depending on port prices at time of sale expect bulk to run you 85-100 delivered by the truckload or about 115-140 by the individual yard. Your bags shouldn't be costing you more than $5 a bag by the pallet load. Now if you have the ability to go to the ports and want to wait in line you can get lower prices, but not sure you can pull in and ask for a yard in the back of your pickup. Of course prices vary by location.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

I do get a fair price for mowing. mainly i want to keep him for mowing. so a good deal on a one time service isnt horible. tho i think i should maybe get some bulk salt for this stuff


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## racer47 (Feb 24, 2011)

:mechanic :j t v landscaping just told you how it is and will be with you new impressed client and all his friends ,,,,, you need to learn how to not screw yourself out of money and make a profit if you expect to make it in this cut throat world  . how young are you .think about it before you give bids


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

29

The more work I get a better my prices get


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## SDLandscapes VT (Dec 17, 2008)

You can only know what to charge if you know what everything costs--trucks, equipment, spreader, employee time, overhead, material pricing, and finally and perhaps most importantly PROFIT

steering by the buoys of market pricing is a quick way to run aground


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

How big is this drive? Did you really need 300 lbs ?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

The space was small. But was very thick ice and I wanted it gone quickly


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

Your going to have to go back and scrape it off or it will freeze again.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

I scraped off as much as I could they were a few very hard patches that need to set a bit longer


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

birddseedd;1599285 said:


> I scraped off as much as I could they were a few very hard patches that need to set a bit longer


Just use peladow, works much better than rock salt.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Park your Dodge on it and let it run for a while.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

BossPlow2010;1599322 said:


> Just use peladow, works much better than rock salt.


yea but costs more.i use it for walkways that are around the building or metal


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

grandview;1599325 said:


> Park your Dodge on it and let it run for a while.


I could tell him about this hydro stuff you can put on it. ice gets a little thicker but clears right up right around spring time


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## DodgeBlizzard (Nov 7, 2003)

Charge for the job you're doing now, not for the jobs you HOPE to get in the future. But look at it this way. Material costs you $40. You charged $65. You then said you scraped most of the ice off. So you didn't charge for your plowing or hand scraping, whichever you did. You actually lost money on that job. You just don't know it. It sounds like you're worrying about what other people think about your prices. Don't be afraid to charge. And if someone questions your price on the spot and you're not comfortable giving prices on the spot, tell him you will send him a bill and then get in the truck. It's ok to go home and think about what you're going to bill someone. Then learn from it. So the next time, you can just rattle off your price, because you know how much each bag/bucket costs. Forget what YOU paid for it. Say a bag costs you $5 bucks a bag. Don't look at that bag as a $5 bag ever again. Remember it as a $15 bag or $20 bag. And the reason it's $20 a bag is you went and picked it up. You took time to put it in your truck. You took time to unload it. You took time to store it. Then you loaded it on your truck again. Then you unloaded it and put it on his icy driveway. Oh and lets not forget what salt does to your truck.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

DodgeBlizzard;1599467 said:


> Charge for the job you're doing now, not for the jobs you HOPE to get in the future. But look at it this way. Material costs you $40. You charged $65. You then said you scraped most of the ice off. So you didn't charge for your plowing or hand scraping, whichever you did. You actually lost money on that job. You just don't know it. It sounds like you're worrying about what other people think about your prices. Don't be afraid to charge. And if someone questions your price on the spot and you're not comfortable giving prices on the spot, tell him you will send him a bill and then get in the truck. It's ok to go home and think about what you're going to bill someone. Then learn from it. So the next time, you can just rattle off your price, because you know how much each bag/bucket costs. Forget what YOU paid for it. Say a bag costs you $5 bucks a bag. Don't look at that bag as a $5 bag ever again. Remember it as a $15 bag or $20 bag. And the reason it's $20 a bag is you went and picked it up. You took time to put it in your truck. You took time to unload it. You took time to store it. Then you loaded it on your truck again. Then you unloaded it and put it on his icy driveway. Oh and lets not forget what salt does to your truck.


I do agree. and i am working on a system where i simply take measurements and such, and read from a price list.

part of my skermish to charge more is because with a limited clientele every dollar counts. which makes me affraid of charging more. which naturally goes away as the business grows. someone here said they bid some 3 million just to get their route for the year. now those would be very good clients.

as far as this salting goes. if i had done it again. maybe i would have charged 15 bucks more. I am glad i was able to provide him a service. the ice looked to be a real pain to drive on. im also glad to have gotten rid of the salt. only bought it for weight in a pinch. thought it would be better than sand as i could use it. so that does help to absorb some of the costs as it had that other function.

but i understand what you mean. there are more costs incured than the price. as i develop my price system for everything, plowing, mowing. landscaping all these costs will be configured into my pricing. and as i get a full scheduel, my prices will naturally rise.

im hoping for good thigns this year. all we need is rain.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

MikeA5150;1599152 said:


> I think this year its $40/ton.


Where are you getting bulk for $40 a ton?!?!?!?!

And to the OP, you need to get your **** together and learn what it costs to run a business, before you price yourself into bankruptcy.


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## bln (Feb 12, 2004)

In Michigan salt is 65 a ton bulk and I get about 130 a ton to spread it.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

JimMarshall;1600221 said:


> Where are you getting bulk for $40 a ton?!?!?!?!
> 
> And to the OP, you need to get your **** together and learn what it costs to run a business, before you price yourself into bankruptcy.


wouldnt that mean 300 lbs would cost 23ish dollars?


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

birddseedd;1600414 said:


> wouldnt that mean 300 lbs would cost 23ish dollars?


Think it would be more like 6 dollars and change But you cant get bulk for that price without buying large loads


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

At 40 a ton 300 lbs would be 6 dollars, but I don't know where anyone is getting bulk for that kind of money, unless they are buying a heck of a lot more of it than I am.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Hey Bird,

What are you paying for your snow plow insurance ?


Just curious....


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Dogplow Dodge;1600468 said:


> Hey Bird,
> 
> What are you paying for your snow plow insurance ?
> 
> Just curious....


im actualy aobut to buy a new policy with a new company. for liability and marine on my mower its about 400. im working on getting something in writing that they cover plowing as the last people i got a plan from outright lied to me saying yea it covers plowing. when i asked more about it all of a sudden, no. this policy does not have the codes for plowing....:realmad::realmad::realmad:

i asked a specific hypothetical about plowing. they said yes that would be covered. then i asked the question about two times more for the same response.:realmad:

people are frickin crooked. new company is giving me something in writing stating plowing.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

also forgot to mention, they renewed the policy WITHOUT my permission or consent, now the insurance company is sending me collection letters.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

What kind of coverage are you getting for 400 bucks?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

JimMarshall;1600565 said:


> What kind of coverage are you getting for 400 bucks?


1 mill. 500 deductible about


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

birddseedd;1600571 said:


> 1 mill. 500 deductible about


Is it just an auto policy?

You mow grass too right?

What do you use for insurance on that end of the business?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

birddseedd;1600514 said:


> also forgot to mention, they renewed the policy WITHOUT my permission or consent, now the insurance company is sending me collection letters.


Insurance is renewal, you have to cancel it not them.So also like you don't carry GL insurance only auto, and that doesn't cover snowplowing for money.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

grandview;1600801 said:


> Insurance is renewal, you have to cancel it not them.So also like you don't carry GL insurance only auto, and that doesn't cover snowplowing for money.


Absolutely correct.

You should READ your insurance policy when you get it. It won't hurt, I promise.. 

There are disclaimers, exceptions to what is covered and what is not.... AKA EXCLUSIONS. All insurance companies Exclude Mold, Terrorism, SNOW Removal, unless specified that it's covered under the GL. You can file a complaint with the insurance company that your "lying" broker represents. That's the right thing to do, as if they're scamming you, then they're doing it to others, and need to be reported. Your state should have a governing body that controls insurance companies and their regulations for them doing business there. File a complaint and get justice for yourself and others who've been duped.

The reason I asked you what you were paying is that your pricing is so low, and you said your volume was low. You must realize that you're starting in the red at the beginning of each season, and you need to make up that amount, plus your other expenses such as Fuel, repairs, parts, other overhead, etc.... and still be able to pay yourself a wage as well. It's easy to get caught in the "competitive mindset", but it doesn't always serve in your best interests.

IOW, Your pricing needs to increase to cover your expenses. if you cause a unsafe condition you WILL BE SUED at some point or another..... and last time I looked outside after a storm where I plowed, the ground was an unsafe place to walk, especially for the elderly, handicapped, or anyone else who has legs. Do yourself and your family right, and make sure you're covered properly insurance wise, otherwise you potentially could lose anything and everything you've ever worked for....

Just a thought.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Dogplow Dodge;1601397 said:


> Absolutely correct.
> 
> You should READ your insurance policy when you get it. It won't hurt, I promise..
> 
> ...


wife said she read it and it did not mention snow plowing at all. but yea. next policy ill be reading over several times before signing.

wife also remembers me telling them not to renew. iv had several discussions with them on this wise. was even trying to talk about combining several other personal policies i have. they, the owner included, just never call me back. ever.

they are a broker, hastings mutual is the actual insurance company, ill be calling them and telling them i told the broker not to renew.

iv ot the number of the people that gave me this quote. they mentioned putting in writing that i CAN be covered for plowing. ill also be calling the guy that posted above and see what he can do for me.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

birddseedd;1601474 said:


> wife said she read it and it did not mention snow plowing at all. but yea. next policy ill be reading over several times before signing.
> 
> wife also remembers me telling them not to renew.


There's a 8x11 paper form you NEED to file in order to have your insurance not renew. Verbally telling them doesn't work with insurance companies, as this form called an "Accord" must be signed and submitted to the carrier a specific timeframe prior to the cancellation date. No accord.....means no cancellation, and the policy is automatically renewed, and that's why your insurance was restarted without your permission, as the broker failed to file the accord.

You have a legitimate reason to file a complaint, but you're also supposed to have another carrier for insurance "in place" from 12:01 am the day following your expiration date of your policy, as if you create a "gap" in insurance coverage, which can prevent you from obtaining other carriers, as they don't tolerate this from what I understand.... especially with contractors... landscapers, carpenters or whatever.. Generally, the new carrier will not back date the policy to the day your old policy expired, so you might have to pay a fee or fine for the gap.

Yeah, I stayed in a holiday inn last night....


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Dogplow Dodge;1601556 said:


> There's a 8x11 paper form you NEED to file in order to have your insurance not renew. Verbally telling them doesn't work with insurance companies, as this form called an "Accord" must be signed and submitted to the carrier a specific timeframe prior to the cancellation date. No accord.....means no cancellation, and the policy is automatically renewed, and that's why your insurance was restarted without your permission, as the broker failed to file the accord.
> 
> You have a legitimate reason to file a complaint, but you're also supposed to have another carrier for insurance "in place" from 12:01 am the day following your expiration date of your policy, as if you create a "gap" in insurance coverage, which can prevent you from obtaining other carriers, as they don't tolerate this from what I understand.... especially with contractors... landscapers, carpenters or whatever.. Generally, the new carrier will not back date the policy to the day your old policy expired, so you might have to pay a fee or fine for the gap.
> 
> Yeah, I stayed in a holiday inn last night....


Sounds like you stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night! :salute:


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

on the phone with the insurance company. hastings is saying that 40 dollar charge is not for a new policy, but its for liability requested from a company i lease i piece of equipment from. on a policy that has been expired.... apparently they contacted my broker and told them to add their company as an insured party.

i do not see how they can have the authority to do this. they have no contract with the insurance company. they do not have ownership in my company, so how can they have authority to tell my insurance what coverage i need to have?


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

Naming someone as "additional insured" on your policy is common practice, and I let my agent handle that stuff, I sell snow service, not insurance.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

You haven't answered my question.... Do you have GCL as well? You should. I doubt you will find an auto policy to cover snow removal.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

JTVLandscaping;1601724 said:


> Naming someone as "additional insured" on your policy is common practice, and I let my agent handle that stuff, I sell snow service, not insurance.


that person does not have the authority to add their selves to MY policy. My wife does not even have the authority to change my policy. I am the one and only soul person in the world with the authority to make changes to my insurance policy.

frankly at this point im considering taking this agency to court. they have lied to me from the very beginning about what this policy covers and i went the year without being covered for plowing.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

This is for a general company liability.


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

birddseedd;1601739 said:


> frankly at this point im considering taking this agency to court. they have lied to me from the very beginning about what this policy covers and i went the year without being covered for plowing.


Somehow I don't see myself believing their 100% at fault. Seeing as how you seem to run a "business" makes me think you possibly told them the incorrect info about what you were doing or were not clear to them what you needed.

Or maybe they saw your equipment and figured you were just doing your own driveway?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Mark13;1601748 said:


> Somehow I don't see myself believing their 100% at fault. Seeing as how you seem to run a "business" makes me think you possibly told them the incorrect info about what you were doing or were not clear to them what you needed.
> 
> Or maybe they saw your equipment and figured you were just doing your own driveway?


oh ha ha.

honest i was not clear to them what i needed, not considering what i have learned, mainly from you guys.

i needed a general liability. what i did not fully understand what general liability covered. my questions revolved around me damaging property with my plow, that kind of thing. when you are selling a service, it is your job to tell the customer what they need after you tell them what you want. think of landscaping. they give you and idea of what they want, and you design and tell them what they need. they may say i want xxx plants of this kind so it will look full. what you have to do is tell them you only need this many of this plant, because in 1 year they will grow to maturity and will look full. im actually pulling someones landscape out this spring because a company made this mistake and the landscape fills have the guys yard. looks horrible and has to have half of it cut off each year. anyway.

what this company should have done was explain to me, this is a liability policy, which will cover you from being sued, it does not cover actual damages caused by the plow. what he did was quite the opposite. he told me the property WOULD be covered, when in fact it would not.

however that is kind of relevant. i asked for a policy that covered me for plowing. regardless what coverage i got or asked for or should have asked for.... i asked to be covered FOR PLOWING. he sold me a policy that excluded plowing.


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## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Never a dull moment


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Bossman 92;1601767 said:


> Never a dull moment


Meh. now that i know what im doing i know exactly what to ask for. im just irked this company sold me a snow plowing liability policy that did not cover me for snow plowing. and are letting other people add things to my coverage that i did not authorize.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

Damages caused with the plow, the way I understand is covered under a commercial auto policy and the GL policy covers injuries or other damage not caused by your truck and plow. A basic auto policy won't cover anything.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

JTVLandscaping;1601776 said:


> Damages caused with the plow, the way I understand is covered under a commercial auto policy and the GL policy covers injuries or other damage not caused by your truck and plow. A basic auto policy won't cover anything.


which i know now. found out at the same time i found out my liability did not cover me for plowing in any which way, injuries or otherwise.:realmad:


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

JTVLandscaping;1601776 said:


> Damages caused with the plow, the way I understand is covered under a commercial auto policy and the GL policy covers injuries or other damage not caused by your truck and plow. A basic auto policy won't cover anything.


The way I understand it, commercial auto only covers damages you might do if driving down the road, say if you wrecked into someones yard. Damages done while working on a property by your plow or otherwise would fall under GL


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

JimMarshall;1601788 said:


> The way I understand it, commercial auto only covers damages you might do if driving down the road, say if you wrecked into someones yard. Damages done while working on a property by your plow or otherwise would fall under GL


the agency told me nothing i do in the truck is covered under liability. of course, they also said i had at least some coverage for plowing aswell. so.. who knows.

march or april i will be getting a new policy. ill be sitting down with them and having a long talk about what is and isent covered and how.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

And given everything else that you've found out is BS, are you inclined to believe them?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

no. that is why the next agent i speak with i will asking some very specific questions and doing lots of reading.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

If you hit something or someone with your plow truck it should be covered by your auto,You plowing sod is poor plowing on your part. GL is usually if someone sues your business for some reason.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

When I plow sod I just tell the customer I'm making their driveway wider to prevent me from digging it up again, and then charge them extra for the excavating.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

grandview;1601933 said:


> If you hit something or someone with your plow truck it should be covered up your auto,You plowing sod is poor plowing on your part. GL is usually if someone sues your business for some reason.


thats how i figured it was. commercial auto if im in the truck. as far as sod goes if i damage anyone's lawn i just put down some seed in the spring. its cheap.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Keep this in mind when you do your new policy.


The policy should state your vehicle and that a "snow plow" is attached. This covers you for damages from when you plow, such as to personal property, driveways, autos and such. If the parent company isn't actually aware of the plow on the truck, and you have a loss, they can deny payment because they weren't aware of the plow. This is why documentation is so critical when it comes to insurance companies, and being able to trust your broker is so important.

My commercial auto policy specifically states .x xx xxx "with plow" so I know my broker notified the parent co. that I was plowing snow. Since I have an umbrella policy that is not held with my auto insurance broker, they require also a copy of the umbrella declarations page as proof of another policy covering my operations.

In the end, if you're not insured properly.... you are the one who will lose if something goes wrong, and not some broker that made $$ on your policy, yet gave no concern over your properly protected A$$


Good luck with your new broker. Bring them coffee and donuts the first time you go there, and maybe they might just do you right.....


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Dogplow Dodge;1602040 said:


> Keep this in mind when you do your new policy.
> 
> The policy should state your vehicle and that a "snow plow" is attached. This covers you for damages from when you plow, such as to personal property, driveways, autos and such. If the parent company isn't actually aware of the plow on the truck, and you have a loss, they can deny payment because they weren't aware of the plow. This is why documentation is so critical when it comes to insurance companies, and being able to trust your broker is so important.
> 
> ...


thanks for the advice. ill keep it in mind when i talk to them and read over what they offer.


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