# Type of Melter and Appliication



## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

I’ve gotten a lot of mixed opinions on what ice melters are least destructive to use. I’d like to get some feedback on what to use on asphalt vs concrete/pavers. I will be applying rock/granular products rather than liquid so that info in non applicable. Currently only servicing residential properties. I’m also offering an eco/pet friendly product formulated with beet extract for customers requesting it. However, not everyone is interested. So what are the pros/cons of the ice melters out there in the market? What are you guys using and on what surfaces, add brand names if possible? 

Also, I’m charging 3x cost applied by the pound at the moment. If we’re getting freezing rain and I’m only driving to the property I charge a $20 application fee plus the number of pounds applied. Does this seem like a practical/efficient pricing structure. If you use an alternative method please give me some input.

Thanks,

rich


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

A propane tourch is a ice melter.

Beet juice is a wetting agent that I wouldn’t 
Want my pet to track in the house
And it still requires a salt to be added.

And when we get down to it none of them are pet friendly as they are endothermic this reaction freezes their paws.


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Hydromaster said:


> A propane tourch is a ice melter.
> 
> Beet juice is a wetting agent that I wouldn't
> Want my pet to track in the house
> ...


I could fit a flamethrower onto my plow

Ok, great information. I guess pet friendly melter claims are in the same boat as organic fertilizers? I'm using a product ice beeter responsible. It's a blend of sodium chloride, magnesium chloride, calcium magnesium chloride (CMA), and Potassium Chloride. It claims to be more environmentally friendly, I assume because of the use of CMA and KCl? Not sure if I can post the label here. In your opinion do you think this is adequate.

My main objective here is to not destroy anyone's property or kill off vegetation. I'm sure that's achieved through responsible application. Trying to take every precaution.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

When you’re plowing ,why are you leaving so much snow and ice behind that you need to use salt all the time?
Are you running shoes or have you removed your shoes to allow your plow to remove the snow down to the paved surface ?

For your customers with pets that run in their driveways maybe you could sprinkle some grit instead ?

Everything you listed has an endothermic reaction and will freeze the dogs paws.
Also, Do you want your dog and Ingesting all these chemicals when they lick their paws clean. Some of them can cause gastrointestinal issues and can damage their feet.

Ps
FYI nothing that you have listed melts ice.


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Hydromaster said:


> When you're plowing ,why are you leaving so much snow and ice behind that you need to use salt all the time?
> Are you running shoes or have you removed your shoes to allow your plow to remove the snow down to the paved surface ?
> 
> For your customers with pets that run in their driveways maybe you could sprinkle some grit instead ?
> ...


I don't run shoes on my plow. I don't have any gravel/dirt driveways. For the most part I get down to pavement. There's always a few small areas that retain a light residue. Some of my customers have pretty steep downhill driveways and the concern is runoff from snow melting refreezing.

We're also expecting freezing rain tomorrow night so I've reached out to some customers to offer a pre salting service. What are your thoughts on this?

Ok that's good to know, some of this advertising is misleading. I don't think I'll offer pet friendly as selling point anymore, rather just tell my customers exactly what you told me. As far as grit, what do you apply? Is it sand, some sort of gravel?

Please elaborate on what you mean by non of them melt ice.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I found a “pet safe”product that uses carbonyl diamine (urea) and a glycol admixture (antifreeze)
It’s Probably slow to work with a low endothermic reaction.
I don’t think there is the perfect product other than melting and evaporating the ice/ water away with the propane torch. they make propane torch set ups for clearing sidewalks and the like. 

Ask your customers want they want. if they still want salt on the driveway then spread 
the salt as long as they understand that it could have an adverse effect on their pets paws.

None of them melt ice they change or lower the freezing point of water.
When the film of water on the snow disappears/ freezes these chlorides/salts become ineffective. that’s why I salt doesn’t work well at 17F or below.

Grit is grit, You can buy it by the bag at most of your lumber or farm supply stores.
It’s like a small sharp piece of P-gravel that offers great traction. But it’s usually more expensive than salt .


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Presalting is the most environmentally friendly application.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Pre salting won’t do anything for freezing rain, it’s just going to wash out, we usually salt a Minimum of 3 times for freezing rain and then will run the plow over it. 
Freezing rain sucks royally, it’s great to make profit from it, but it’s a real pain in the Richard


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Mudly said:


> Presalting is the most environmentally friendly application.


Sarcasm?


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Pre salting won't do anything for freezing rain, it's just going to wash out, we usually salt a Minimum of 3 times for freezing rain and then will run the plow over it.
> Freezing rain sucks royally, it's great to make profit from it, but it's a real pain in the Richard


So basically going out and putting salt on the ground isn't going to do anything, or it's not as effective as some would think?


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Hydromaster said:


> I found a "pet safe"product that uses carbonyl diamine (urea) and a glycol admixture (antifreeze)
> It's Probably slow to work with a low endothermic reaction.
> I don't think there is the perfect product other than melting and evaporating the ice/ water away with the propane torch. they make propane torch set ups for clearing sidewalks and the like.
> 
> ...


Can you share the product or is that against site rules? 
Thanks for that break down, I understand a lot better what your talking about. I'm going to look into grit as some customers may be interested. What do you do with the remaining product one the ice/snow is gone? Does it have to be blown/swept away?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

I’ve pre salted myself to show the customer we’re being proactive, but no it doesn’t do anything, it’ll
Wash out and icing will still occur. 
So salt once pre salt, allow icing to happen, salt again, allow ice to bridge over salt, plow, salt again.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Njevergreen said:


> Sarcasm?


No, boss is giving you one example. Freezing rain is tricky. Depending on temps of course. Ime however preaps are the most environmentally friendly


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Njevergreen said:


> So basically going out and putting salt on the ground isn't going to do anything, or it's not as effective as some would think?


As long as it's wet and a storm is eminent it will reduce the adherence of snow to tarmac keeping the lot safe or a length of time. But never use salt to burn inches imo.


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Mudly said:


> No, boss is giving you one example. Freezing rain is tricky. Depending on temps of course. Ime however preaps are the most environmentally friendly


Lol sorry I thought you were implying it might excessive and wasteful. I was just reading a thread on ice melter application. I think guys over in Canada were saying they apply salt/melters at certain temperatures regardless of moisture or precipitation and some people were shocked.

Looking at the forecast now it seems their calling for just rain now. Temps are going to be mid 30s so I'm honestly hoping I don't even have to go out.


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Mudly said:


> As long as it's wet and a storm is eminent it will reduce the adherence of snow to tarmac keeping the lot safe or a length of time. But never use salt to burn inches imo.


Logical. I can agree with that, I would imagine the amount you'd have to apply to burn through inches of snow and ice would be ridiculous.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Njevergreen said:


> Lol sorry I thought you were implying it might excessive and wasteful. I was just reading a thread on ice melter application. I think guys over in Canada were saying they apply salt/melters at certain temperatures regardless of moisture or precipitation and some people were shocked.
> 
> Looking at the forecast now it seems their calling for just rain now. Temps are going to be mid 30s so I'm honestly hoping I don't even have to go out.


Yeah that thread is ridiculous. It's ok to pre app. But not for the hell of it


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I've pre salted myself to show the customer we're being proactive, but no it doesn't do anything, it'll
> Wash out and icing will still occur.
> So salt once pre salt, allow icing to happen, salt again, allow ice to bridge over salt, plow, salt again.


As you can probably tell by my questions I'm new to the ice management and snow removal game. That's basically what I was trying to do, be proactive for the customer and make some extra money. Now I feel like I have my foot in my mouth lol .


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Mudly said:


> Yeah that thread is ridiculous. It's ok to pre app. But not for the hell of it


Money is king.


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

So are you guys doing majority of commercial or residential work?


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Njevergreen said:


> Logical. I can agree with that, I would imagine the amount you'd have to apply to burn through inches of snow and ice would be ridiculous.


Sometimes I ask myself how many inches of salt does it take to burn 1/8 inch of ice at 15 degrees. The trick is to keep things wet during a storm, you need water to activate the salt. There are industry standards to follow. A lot of good guys might chime in but this question has so many threads.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Njevergreen said:


> Money is king.


Then why do you care about dogs.


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Mudly said:


> Sometimes I ask myself how many inches of salt does it take to burn 1/8 inch of ice at 15 degrees. The trick is to keep this wet during a storm, you need water to activate the salt. There are industry standards to follow. A lot of good guys might chime in but this question has so many threads.


Yea it's pretty redundant and I know guys are tired of seeing the same thread. I was trying to stay away from creating one but using the keywords I'd need in the search engine to find these threads is like finding a needle in a haystack. A million threads come up lol. Plus a lot of them derail. Hopefully we can get some people in here to weigh in on this.


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Mudly said:


> Then why do you care about dogs.


No I was saying that's most peoples ideology. Probably why their applying unnecessary amounts of salt. I want to make money but i want to do it responsibly. I have pets of my own and many of customers all have the same concern. Definitely not trying to harm our furry friends.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

We do a mix of resis and commercial, generally when we get freezing rain, (6 events last year) someone will ***** about ice, we had a slip and fall last year during a freezing rain event and I wanted to go nuclear on the client for even allowing a physicians office to be open during an event, mind you, an local international airport shut down because of this freezing rain event.


Cool story, I know but like i said freezing rain sucks, and I’d rather plow 12” of snow than deal with it.


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> We do a mix of resis and commercial, generally when we get freezing rain, (6 events last year) someone will ***** about ice, we had a slip and fall last year during a freezing rain event and I wanted to go nuclear on the client for even allowing a physicians office to be open during an event, mind you, an local international airport shut down because of this freezing rain event.
> 
> Cool story, I know but like i said freezing rain sucks, and I'd rather plow 12" of snow than deal with it.


Yea that's pretty irresponsible. Didn't you guys get temps of like -30 or something like in michigan either this year or last?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

At the present time all of our customers are residential Drives.

I have a couple of customers that have dogs and I apply salt And I’m very minimalistic it is mostly to break the adhesion between hardpack and or ice, Before plowing the drive.

For some of them salt is a non-issue as their dogs will never be playing in the salted drive, most of them have fenced in backyard.

Or some of these hipsters are taking their dog for a walk down the city street exposing their dogs to salts and chloride’s not giving any concern to the level of pain there Dog may be feeling.
these hipsters/millennials 
feel better thinking that they were ecologically friendly at home....

Get every penny you can out of them ....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Pre salting won't do anything for freezing rain, it's just going to wash out, we usually salt a Minimum of 3 times for freezing rain and then will run the plow over it.
> Freezing rain sucks royally, it's great to make profit from it, but it's a real pain in the Richard


As a blanket statement this is wrong. Sometimes salting before freezing rain hits is beneficial.

And then last year we had an event when I just stopped salting because it was raining so hard the salt was getting washes away.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Njevergreen said:


> Lol sorry I thought you were implying it might excessive and wasteful. I was just reading a thread on ice melter application. I think guys over in Canada were saying they apply salt/melters at certain temperatures regardless of moisture or precipitation and some people were shocked.
> 
> Looking at the forecast now it seems their calling for just rain now. Temps are going to be mid 30s so I'm honestly hoping I don't even have to go out.


Just because air temps are above freezing does not mean you won't have freezing rain.


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Just because air temps are above freezing does not mean you won't have freezing rain.


Could you go into a little more detail about this? Are you talking about residual moisture as temps drop off later in the day?

One other questions, do you think charging .045 -.050 cents per pound of rock salt is considered high? I know this is dependent on individual purchase price, just looking for a general idea


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

The last few years we have had our fair share of f rain. Alot if it with temps above freezing. The warm rain will actually pull yhe frost out of the ground and freeze pavement and gravel lots. The difference seems to be that we don't get the tree damage as the trees dont hold any ice during this type of event.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> As a blanket statement this is wrong. Sometimes salting before freezing rain hits is beneficial.
> 
> And then last year we had an event when I just stopped salting because it was raining so hard the salt was getting washes away.


Oh


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Njevergreen said:


> Could you go into a little more detail about this? Are you talking about residual moisture as temps drop off later in the day?


Freezing rain occurs when the air aloft is warm enough for rain but the surfaces are below freezing. I've seen it pouring rain at 9° and freezing on contact as well as temps in the mid 30's but the ground has been cold for long enough to have frost that it also freezes on contact. You really need to know your pavement temps, not air temps.

But also, residual moisture can freeze as well. There's a lot of different scenarios.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Oh


So if you're going to have a 1/10" of freezing rain, you believe it's going to wash away? Even if it's a mist?

All I'm saying to the new guy is your statement is not correct 100% of the time. Sometimes it is correct, sometimes it isn't. If moderate to heavy rain is forecast, yes, the salt will dilute and\or wash off. If it's only a light rain, there could be quite a bit of benefit to presalting.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Freezing rain occurs when the air aloft is warm enough for rain but the surfaces are below freezing. I've seen it pouring rain at 9° and freezing on contact as well as temps in the mid 30's but the ground has been cold for long enough to have frost that it also freezes on contact. You really need to know your pavement temps, not air temps.
> 
> But also, residual moisture can freeze as well. There's a lot of different scenarios.


So in a nutshell something like this...?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So in a nutshell something like this...?
> 
> View attachment 198852


Yes...especially on Fantasy Island.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So if you're going to have a 1/10" of freezing rain, you believe it's going to wash away? Even if it's a mist?
> 
> All I'm saying to the new guy is your statement is not correct 100% of the time. Sometimes it is correct, sometimes it isn't. If moderate to heavy rain is forecast, yes, the salt will dilute and\or wash off. If it's only a light rain, there could be quite a bit of benefit to presalting.


Not what I said nor was implying at all, I was simply saying "oh" 
Next time I'll say "I was wrong" to more clear.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Not what I said nor was implying at all, I was simply saying "oh"
> Next time I'll say "I was wrong" to more clear.


K


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> K


Whatever


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## Njevergreen (Oct 21, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Freezing rain occurs when the air aloft is warm enough for rain but the surfaces are below freezing. I've seen it pouring rain at 9° and freezing on contact as well as temps in the mid 30's but the ground has been cold for long enough to have frost that it also freezes on contact. You really need to know your pavement temps, not air temps.
> 
> But also, residual moisture can freeze as well. There's a lot of different scenarios.


These are current soil temps in my area. Can I go ahead and assume impervious surfaces are the same? Leads me to another question, also probably
area dependent, but what weather apps are you guys using to gather your information for upcoming storm events?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Njevergreen said:


> Can I go ahead and assume impervious surfaces are the same?


You can assume, but just be aware of what happens when you do.

Watch for ice forming on trees and shrubs, or vehicles, power lines. Even if the air temp is above freezing, this will give you some idea of what will happen on the pavement.

For weather, I check some of the locals and the NWS. Most of the time they're all wrong. Radarscope for radar. And another I pay monthly for.

Mostly I use my weather window and drive around.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

You really need do be paying attention to tarmac temps. If you don’t have your own devices check out your states odot they may have publicly assessable temperatures you can monitor


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