# F250 PSD or 2500 CUMMINGS DIESEL



## alpine692003 (Dec 31, 2003)

Hey guys, 

I'm in a bind and I'm not sure what to get for my truck.. Both shall be 4x4 and automatic transmission.. I'll use it as my snow plow and landscaper truck.

Either the FORD F-250 POWERSTROKE DIESEL or the 2500 CUMMINGS DIESEL!

What you guys think is the better option?


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## ProSeasons (Nov 30, 2000)

You cant go wrong with either rig, so youll probably be making a choice in transmissions. IF that is the case, the Dodge auto tranny SUCKS, and I mean huge. I'd go with the Ford.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

I have a 2000 Dodge automatic with 110,000 miles. Trailers atleast 3 days a week and plows 200 hours every year. Same tranny, I have replaced 2 sensors in the tranny, the exact same 2 I did in my 98. I do drive real easy but this truck has been very good to me. I am 6'4" and the seats in the Dodge are long and very comfortable.


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## SCBrown (Jan 25, 2005)

Both are fine trucks.
Its true the old Dodge tranys are crap, I have first hand knowledge.
If your buying new then I believe the new trans. is allot better.
Motor wise, NOTHING can compare with the Cummins.
The Ford is a nice truck, I prefer the Cummins over the Powerstroke, but I'm sure you will hear different from others.


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## 04superduty (Jan 9, 2004)

what year ford?
with the dodges automatics they have worked all the bugs out of the new ones.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

ProSeasons, what rock have you been living under?? As a proud Dodge owner (knock on wood) my last too trucks have held up great. They were used hard but not abused.  If I recall the new Super Duty's might be placed in the "SUCKS" catagory for trannys. Do a lil research and you might be in for a big suprise about Fords new tranny's. Im sure any of the manufacturers stock trannys wont hold up to a tricked out diesal, specially a smoke spewing Cummins! But I guess that is what an APS tranny is for, to keep the beast movin forward.
Todd


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## SCBrown (Jan 25, 2005)

T-MAN said:


> ProSeasons, what rock have you been living under?? As a proud Dodge owner (knock on wood) my last too trucks have held up great. They were used hard but not abused.  If I recall the new Super Duty's might be placed in the "SUCKS" catagory for trannys. Do a lil research and you might be in for a big suprise about Fords new tranny's. Im sure any of the manufacturers stock trannys wont hold up to a tricked out diesal, specially a smoke spewing Cummins! But I guess that is what an APS tranny is for, to keep the beast movin forward.
> Todd


Thats ATS tranny.  
Can't go wrong with DTT trans. either.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

Actually I did mean APS Precision Mfg, out of Cali. Ats and Dtt are fine products too!  
Todd


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## meathead1134 (Nov 12, 2004)

Ok how are the manual trannies on the dodge??


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## Gusco (Jan 24, 2005)

If you get a Ford my reccomandation would be year 2000 or older as the engine is better than the newer ones.


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## SCBrown (Jan 25, 2005)

T-MAN said:


> Actually I did mean APS Precision Mfg, out of Cali. Ats and Dtt are fine products too!
> Todd


My mistake.
Didn't know about APS.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I would strongly discourage a purchase of a Ford 5 speed at this time. I am on owner of 2 of them, bith f which have been replaced already. 1 with a whole 500 miles, the other made it to about 15K. I have absolutely no faith in these rebuilds at this point in time and will not until we go a couple years without any problems. These are supposedly the 'new and improved' 5 speeds.

I am also in need of another truck and am seriously considering a Dodge after the crap I am getting out of Ford. I own 6 Fords, 2 350's, 2 550's, 1 F800, and 1 F750. The 7.3's with 4 speeds are fine, the new ones suck way more than the Dodges.


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## oldmankent (Mar 2, 2001)

I've heard about Ford's tranny's having problems. Supposed to be something working its way loose when tranny is in reverse. Also heard they were fixing the problem. Try "www.thedieselstop" and the 6.0 forums to find out if they actually are addressing the problem. I guess at this point, you should just go with the truck that you have a better gut feeling about. Also, which one you are more comfortable in. I'm a Ford guy for the moment though. Also, you should just get the 350 or 3500 if you can afford it. Having extra capacity always seems to pay off.


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## saleen49 (Jan 31, 2005)

The problem is with a snap ring that pops loose and affects 04 and very early 05 Ford Super Duty trucks, they already have a fix for this and if you have one of these trucks i would have your dealer fix it as a small number of them have been going bad, as for Dodge the brother in law just had a trans go bad in his Ram and he doesn't own a plow,


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## pro (Dec 19, 2002)

Ok, here is my .02. I have had an 01,and 02 Ford w/powerstroke, and an 03 and 04 Dodge w/cummins. BOTH are great trucks. My likes w/Ford is the cab size, and the ability to warm up quickly. My likes w/Dodge are the looks, happy medium with size and function on the Crew Cab. Both Fords were the 7.3 motor and 6 speed tranny's. The 03 Dodge was a std. output w/auto tranny. (had no problems) and the 04 was a High Output w/6speed tranny.(no problems)
It all boils down to personal preference, and for me is dealership support. Hope this helps!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

saleen49 said:


> The problem is with a snap ring that pops loose and affects 04 and very early 05 Ford Super Duty trucks, they already have a fix for this and if you have one of these trucks i would have your dealer fix it as a small number of them have been going bad, as for Dodge the brother in law just had a trans go bad in his Ram and he doesn't own a plow,


The problem is that this same thing happened on our '04 with a build date of 9/03. Ford blamed it on abuse, not coming to a complete stop between shifting. The problem with this BS is that the service tech informed me that there is an electronic delay built into these tranny's, so whenever there is motion sensed on the output shaft, the transmission cannot shift. So I asked him how we could be shifting too fast, he said he can't answer that. The reason they told us this is because this truck did not fall into Ford's build dates. I believe it is a weak point in the transmission in general. There is also the problem of the retaining pins that hold the reverse planetary gear in place walking their way out and grenading the transmission. 2 major problems IMO. BTW, the '04 that doesn't fall into these build dates had this problem with the retaining pins. This is what I am basing my judgement that the 5 speed is a piece of junk on.

We have had both 5 speeds rebuilt with the supposedly new parts, I still have no faith in them. The '05 started displaying the same problem the '04 had that we had in to the dealer 3X's for before it fell apart.

As for the small number going bad, you might want to drop by a Ford dealer and ask them or look in the lot after a snowfall. I don't think there is a 5 speed out there that is used for plowing that hasn't gone out yet. I can list off a dozen just here in GR from 1 dealer. A dozen nationwide would be a small number. You might also want to check the Ford Forum and see how many are on there, just from PS.


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## justme- (Dec 28, 2004)

The Dodge manuals are awesome. Dodge autos are so so. Ford has auto trouble with 04-05 beyond the snapring- one of the sprag pins has a tendancy of working loose as well as some of them having serious delays in d to reverse shifting (Dodge has this sometimes also)

PSD (which is IH Navstar) is crap for 04/05- I would hold off until at least 06- lots of problems with the incorrect front main seals being installed creating major oil leaks, turbo chargers blowing up, PCM's failing, etc. Ford is contemplating severing relations with Navstar and falling back on their own 6.0/7.2 design (that's the industry buzz confirmed by a Ford Zone CSR) Many people here have had no problems with their 04/05 PSD- but over 1/3rd of the E350's sold in my zone have had major (ie all or most) of the above problems.

Want the best overall go Dodge Cummins with a 6 speed manual- problem solved.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

I have a chevy with a duramax/allison  and I may be slightly bias in that respect  

I will say my Dad bought a 05 550 with the new 6.0 and the new 5 speed. I truley hope I dont have to tell him a big fat "I told you so". He had deccent luck with his 2000 550(still has it) I dont like the way the trans operates compared to the allison and I still dont think its as good. I do LOVE the new 05's turning radius. The darn thing is a 4x4 and it still turns like a geo metro! Alright power, dont like how the turbo spools but thats just me I suppose and how the programing is set up.

Dodge has "supposedly" fixed thier famous trans problems. If you get a bit older Dodge there are enough crazy cummins guys that have been tearing stuff up that there is a large aftermarket following that make deecent stuff and has actually proved the phrase "you cant polish a turd" wrong. Even the older ford trans wernt the best they were just better than the older dodge tranys. 

My personal vote would be a 01-04.5 Chevy D/A(a new one would be good too), or a dodge or a 7.3 powerstroke. JMO


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ratlover said:


> I I do LOVE the new 05's turning radius. The darn thing is a 4x4 and it still turns like a geo metro! Alright power, dont like how the turbo spools but thats just me I suppose and how the programing is set up.
> 
> My personal vote would be a 01-04.5 Chevy D/A(a new one would be good too), or a dodge or a 7.3 powerstroke. JMO


I'm with you on the turbo spool. Seems like it takes forever. And yes the turning is awesome, just can't wait to find out what Ford didn't engineer strong enough up there as well. Seeing they can't build a transmission or a 4WD shifter.


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## alpine692003 (Dec 31, 2003)

WHy is the tranny on the DODGE so horrible?!?!?


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

Why is a BBC better than a Hemi? its like why is the sky blue, although there are many scientific reasons why but I dont care bout that, I just know a BBC is better  J/K and trying to get you mopar guys going

Alot of it comes down to how they have the trans set up to shift. They can be gone through fairly easy and made to be pretty deccent for cheap. If you start getting stupid with power then the innards show themselvs to be a bit weak but they make all kinds of billet goodies. The dodge tranys are kinda like the 200's in the chevys. Kinda a junk trans and weak from the starts but a small group of nutcases(GN guys) started doing stupid stuff with em and an aftermarket grew and it can be built into a pretty deecent trans. I wouldnt be that afraid of a dodge becasue of its trans just buy one expecting for it to blow(probably get lucky and it wont) and if it does dont replace it with stock. 

Edit: Or do you not believe the guys saying that dodge trans arnt the best in the world and looking for a debate?


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## ProSeasons (Nov 30, 2000)

OK, ok!

Thanks for the beating, guys! I learned my lesson! 

I was under the impression Dodge autos (stock) not the ATS or DTT versions, were junk. 

I'm with ratlover, give me a DTT prepared Allison any day!

The Dodge manuel I have, the New Venture Gear NV-5600 Six Speed is out of a 33,000 pound CDL weight straight truck, weighs close to 500 pounds BY ITSELF and is a friggin monster!


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## justme- (Dec 28, 2004)

Actually RE Dodge trannys- The 518 tranny used behind the Diesels and V10 (called the 47RE) is a decendent of the 727Torque-flite which is one of the most durable and abuseable transmissions ever made for medim duty. They could be modified to easily handle 1000+ Hp and 1000+Ft-Lbs of torque.
The 518 is a gasolene engineered transmission not a diesel engineered transmission that is the sole problem with it- on it's own- like behind a 360 (5.9L gas) it awesome. 
Quick Diesel/Gasolene theory lesson:
Diesel engines are long stroke low RPM engines creating high torque. Gasolene engines are normally (and almost always in comparison to diesels) short stroke high RPM engines. The long stroke of the diesel results in the lower rpms and creates the higher torque. (yes gas engines can have high torque- but it is resultant from HP at higher RPM)

Now back the the Dodge application. Take a Medium/Heavy duty engine (Cummins B5.9 and ISB) that is capable of producing 600HP and over 1000Lb-Ft of torque and try putting it into a pickup truck. No transmission available for the medium duty market is both weight effecient AND capable of handling that kind of power (it's almost impossible to drive normally on the street also incidently) so the only way for Chrysler to install the engine was to decrease it's power output and beef up it's strongest production transmission to handle it- arriving at a balance point. (the balance point has moved higher in each generation- 94-96 were 180Hp, 97-98 215Hp 98ISB-2000 230/250Hp)

Decreasing the power of the engine is another topic all together, as was stregnthening the 518- but in order to mate the two comprimises had to be made- the 518 (gasolene tranny remember- see above) has different shift points and optimum specs than a diesel tranny so they work but not effeciantly. The shift points HAVE to be different from the peak positions of the Cummins because the early 518 couldn't handle them stock (another decrease of power method). Enhansing the 518 to better perform as a diesel transmission has become big business aftermarket and includes everything for better designed valve bodies to custom converters. Just as the 727 could be upgraded to a 727A (4 sprags instead of 3, more clutch plates, line pressure changes) the 518 can be upgraded and improved- as Chrysler has been doing over the years.

I have had extra clutch plates added, the extra sprag added, line pressure boosted, the valve body modified, shift kit installed, and a couple other tweeks by my neighbor who is a tranny specialist. They assure me it will handle the up to 650ftLbs from the stock 480ft-lbs. That will bring my 96 up on par with 01 Chevy Duramax output.

Interesting to note The Cummins is the only engine available by the big 3 that is actually a Medium/Heavy duty engine- the Ford Is the next in line (Medium) with the Duramax as the lowest duty at only a Medium/Light. The Duramax is at it's basic maximum power output from the factory, as is the Ford, but the Cummins is seriously detuned for Chrysler. The Cummins is also the ONLY one of the 3 that is intended to be a 300K engine just as the 8 and 10 wheelers that is normally is installed in are. Chevy benifits from GM owning Allison who has been making nothing but transmissions for decades, Ford has been making larger trucks for decades, but Chrysler had to close their large truck and heavy equipment division in the Government bailout back in the late 70's/early 80's. Merging with Daimler-Benz allows them alot of the experianced company stuff that the others have had all along.

It's also interesting to look at the Daimler-Chrysler companies and see who else they own (like Freightliner for example)


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## alpine692003 (Dec 31, 2003)

Hmmmph..


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## Nuttymopar (Apr 22, 2003)

I agree with Justme. But since my 92 cummins puts out about 390 hp (at the crank compared to 160 hp stock), I wonder where that puts me? I do have a DTT tranny and it is a totally different feeling then the stock auto. Shifts much firmer and it can take the power and torque this cummins has to deal out. Chrysler did turn the power back on these cummins to make it work in the trucks. Even the newer ones (2004 - 2005) still can be modified to make much more power then stock. 

I also know that Ford is able to turn the power up with modifications. I have never been in a Power Stroke and have nothing against them. But I guess I would rather be cummin then strokin any day. :redbounce  

I'll keep my older dodge for now and deal with the bumpy ride it gives.. passing those power chokes.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm MOPAR to the end..  
Having said that..
The old 727 in my 68 charger is the stock tranny with a shift Kit installed and all I do is abuse it every time i drive it. I cam't help it I hear that 440 come alive and I just have to give it to her she really likes it when i drive her like i stole it  !! never a problem..
the 74 has a 318 and a 727 also lost reverse in it after 22yr of plowing, got a used one from a junk yard and that one has been good for 8yr now with only small leaks, she is old and can't contain her self any more......
Now both of my newer Doges 01 & 98 2500 with plow prep, trailer, camper, options have both blown at 65k and 66k , both serviced every year, 
So after hearing that allot of other people were having similar problems, I think it's safe to say that the tranny is a good anchor and nothing else :realmad: 
Will I buy another Dodge?? you know that answer  
As for engins Dodge is not renewing it's contract with Cumins, there opting for there own diesels the BENZ I have operated equipment with a Daimler Benz diesel at almost full throttle for years SKI SEASONS)with no major problems, you can't kill'em.
Hope fully they will start putting some of there auto tyranny's in the dodges soon.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

no flames intended justme but soooo many points are either a streach of the truth, oppinion, an apples to oranges comparision or just plain wrong that I dont know were to start......but no sense trying, a waste to get into a debate with a brand blinded person

I still say if I were to buy a dodge I would put the cash aside assuming the trany will puke. If it did I wouldnt replace it with stock, if it didnt I would feel lucky.


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## alpine692003 (Dec 31, 2003)

Just got the mechanic to change my brakes, change the transmission fluid cause its dirty..


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## fordplowdude (Feb 1, 2005)

Personally I would get the 2005 Ford 6.0L PSD. They are great trucks.


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## rainair (Nov 11, 2003)

*humming or c........*

well OK here is my take and what I have been told by the FORD people!
they bought the cumming.... told intertrashional aka psd good bye.... the dodge people have in the last few years used the super tranny of Mercedes Benz..... so they need to step that up just one more.... go with the engine too....... and yea GM still has the duratrash......jm2c

some mispelled words for reason


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## fordplowdude (Feb 1, 2005)

I've heard that the 2003 Model of the 6.0L had the problems and fixed most of them now. In 2003 was the 6.0L first production year so of course Ford had some problems to work out. For 2004 and up they all have the newer parts in them.


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## GLS (Nov 22, 2001)

justme- said:


> The Duramax is at it's basic maximum power output from the factory, as is the Ford, but the Cummins is seriously detuned for Chrysler.


???

Programmers alone can easily put the dmax at 450-500 RWHP.

The duramax is anything but at it's maximum power output from the factory.


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## SCBrown (Jan 25, 2005)

0ryan0 said:


> ???
> 
> Programmers alone can easily put the dmax at 450-500 RWHP.
> 
> The duramax is anything but at it's maximum power output from the factory.


Sorry I have to disagree.
There is no programmer that will give you 450-500 at the rear wheels.
I don't care what the ad in the magazine says, its not going to happen.
Buy the programmer and get on a dyno and see what it says.
My Edge Comp. says 120 HP gain.
DDIII another 120HP gain
AFE 20HP gain.
You can't just add these up and get your HP, won't happen in the real world.
I can post HUGE torque numbers (which is all that matters anyway) but RWHP will not add up.


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## GLS (Nov 22, 2001)

Go to the dieselplace.com and search for dyno numbers--there are plenty of posts for proof. Stacking programmers will give significant gains.

The point I was trying to make, though, was that the duramax is not at it's maximum power output at the factory. There are MANY programmers available for the dmax.

I just remembered why I stopped posting here at plowsite. Goodbye :waving:


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## Robber80 (Sep 8, 2004)

i have an 04 f350 PSD and 6speed. i love it, 0 problems. it deffenetly is a good motor. the other thing you have to rememeber about what you hear online is this... if someone is going to post something about a vehicle or motor or anything 90 percent of the time is because they are asking why something happened or becasue of the problem. most of the time people do not post saying good things about something because there is no need. you aren't gaining anything by posting "hey i love my 6.0" but if you had a problem, you are gaining something by asking questions like "why does my motor make a noise?". so just because everyone seems to say the 6.0 has problems doesn't mean they really are that bad. its just because all the happy owners aren't online every night posting to a 100 different forums "i love my 6.0". 

that being said. you can't go wrong either way. the percentage of getting a bad one is the same between all of the makes. go for the most comfortable seats for you.


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## ultimate plow (Jul 2, 2002)

0ryan0 said:


> Go to the dieselplace.com and search for dyno numbers--there are plenty of posts for proof. Stacking programmers will give significant gains.
> 
> The point I was trying to make, though, was that the duramax is not at it's maximum power output at the factory. There are MANY programmers available for the dmax.
> 
> I just remembered why I stopped posting here at plowsite. Goodbye :waving:


I liked you here. Havent seen you post much here. Where ya been? Why did you stop posting here at plowsite?


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## PLOWMAN45 (Jul 2, 2003)

i would take the new 600 diesel from dodge straight 6


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## SCBrown (Jan 25, 2005)

0ryan0 said:


> Go to the dieselplace.com and search for dyno numbers--there are plenty of posts for proof. Stacking programmers will give significant gains.
> 
> The point I was trying to make, though, was that the duramax is not at it's maximum power output at the factory. There are MANY programmers available for the dmax.
> 
> I just remembered why I stopped posting here at plowsite. Goodbye :waving:


Yes I know there are MANY programmers.
You didn't say STACKING programmers.
I did not say anything bad about Duramax or your truck for you to get upset with my post.
I'm a big diesel fan know matter what truck you have. I have said in other posts that Ford and GM are fine trucks. I just prefer CTD.
And yes I agree, you can get allot more out of ALL of the diesels the big three use.
I know a bit about programmers but I may be wrong. I don't see why you would not post here anymore.
I am new around here, maybe there is more to it than I know.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

fordplowdude said:


> Personally I would get the 2005 Ford 6.0L PSD. They are great trucks.
> 
> I've heard that the 2003 Model of the 6.0L had the problems and fixed most of them now. In 2003 was the 6.0L first production year so of course Ford had some problems to work out. For 2004 and up they all have the newer parts in them.


Have you read anything about the transmissions on this thread or the others? They are not great trucks, the tranny's suck, are worthless junk. The engine has had its problems worked out, now they have to get their crap together on the tranny's. Then they can get the 4WD shifter to stay engaged and in another year or 2 they'll probably have to start rebuilding the new style front ends, the way everything else is built. If they can't even build a tranny or 4WD shifter, what are the chances they built the front end strong enough?

Rainair, your info is about 3-4 years old, this is not going to happen anymore. That's why there is a 6.0 liter instead of a Cummins in Fords right now. Big mistake IMO.


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## Robber80 (Sep 8, 2004)

the front end is a dana 60 with 35 spline inners and outers. plus thicker tubes. you can garantee thats strong enough, its stronger than any other front axle in a 3/4 ton- 1ton. i know 3 or 4 people with 05s, ranging from 5000miles to 20000s miles. 0 problems with the tranny. all 6.0 deisels too.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Robber80 said:


> the front end is a dana 60 with 35 spline inners and outers. plus thicker tubes. you can garantee thats strong enough, its stronger than any other front axle in a 3/4 ton- 1ton. i know 3 or 4 people with 05s, ranging from 5000miles to 20000s miles. 0 problems with the tranny. all 6.0 deisels too.


I'm not talking about the axle, just everything else. You know 3-4 people, I can find 30-40 trucks in about an hour that have had tranny problems, just here in Grand Rapids, especially since we've had 2 of our own go out.

Are they plowing with them? None of the transmission problems were showing up until the snow started falling.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

0ryan0 said:


> ???
> 
> Programmers alone can easily put the dmax at 450-500 RWHP.
> 
> The duramax is anything but at it's maximum power output from the factory.


    

BTW and for the record, I ran back to back times with an AFE as a stock bock and it ran the exact same times. I would say no power there. Exhust dont add power either. All I'm running is one program(a TTS) to make power, a liftpump to keep from running outa fuel, and a stage 5 suncoast to get the power to the ground, oh yeah.......sleved tie rods to keep from bending em durring 4x4 launches with boost.


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## justme- (Dec 28, 2004)

Ratlover- Uh, Not sure what you mean. Everything I said in the last post was either gleaned from industry info (I work related to the auto industry), from my neighbor/mechanic (transmission specialist who's shop does most of the warranty work for the local Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler dealers as well as most of the area's Police fleet), Cummins Northeast, many sources relating to the Dodge Cummins Rams on the net (TDR/Dodgeram.org/Dirt/Dodgeram.com/etc.), Ford Zone Office, Local service techs at the above mentioned and other local dealerships, and a few other places like personal experiance, my father who owned 3 service stations in the 70's and drag raced Chrysler's among others.

I am not brand blinded- I grew up a Ford boy, until I owned one. Almost bought another instead of my Dodge 5 years ago but the wait for a PSD truck was 6 months- (wanted an F350 PSD- cheaper than the Dodge and more robust than the Chevy for work) and my wife (back when she was still my girlfriend) used to work for a Lincoln-Mercury dealer.
My family owned 2 K5 blazer's (1983 and a 1985) for many years (1 is still sitting by the side of the house waiting for spring to be put up for sale (8 MPG is a killer!), My Dump is a Chevy, I Drove an S10 blazer for several years. 
My first vehicle was an 82 Toyota that I drove into the ground. I have personally worked on and repaired every vehicle my family has owned since I was about 8- from oil changes to tranny overhauls and engine swaps- as well as most of my friends vehicles, from Escorts to a Unimog and everything in between.

Dodge and Ford have better ideals about what working trucks should be over Chevy- Ford has some better features/ideas than Dodge (solid front axles with locking hubs instead of that damn CAD for instance).



As to Duramax output- Cummins makes Semi truck engines as well as construction equipment engines and marine engines, and B5.9 was/is one. Ford makes Semis and semi engines (L Series, C8000) which used 6.6L and 7.8L Ford diesel engines (service manual on my desk infront of me for them) Chevy hasn't made Semi's in years and owns Detroit Diesel for such applications. The Duramax, I have been told by the Chevy dealer, is an Isuzu engine which comes factory at the output it was designed for- it can be increased with chips but it will reduce the life of the engine because it was not designed to handle the increases.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

Chevy does use an issuzu motor(they own issuzu) Issuzu has been building diesels for a couple of years now  Look at the kodiac line http://www.chevrolet.com/mediumduty/kodiak/ Look at what you can get an allison 1000 in and what you can get a 6.6 l duramax in(same as what comes in a 2500HD or a 3500HD) you can get a 8.1 gasser in a 8500. does that mean that its somehow better? Ever hear of a TD 427? It was used in large trucks so does that mean a short stroke big bore gasser is a good idea? You basic theory of a gas vrs diesel is also way skewed. it has nothing to do with the stroke of the motor. The reason a diesel produces the power the way it does is becasue the fuel it burns. the reason diesel operates at a lower rpm is becasue the fuel it burns. pure and simple. Diesel burns much slower. Tranys could care less what kind of stroke they are behind. Ford uses IHI. Of course chevy's motor is operating at its designed output. As is Fords. as is dodges. For 03 its designed output was 300hp, now its 310. You start uping the power and no crap it will be detrimental to life, a 500hp cummins isnt going to live as long as a babied stocker. There are guys that have proven you can beat the dog piss outa a duramax pulling and running low 12's/11's for 90k, hasnt been enough duramaxes out there long enough to put the miles on em to have any "milion mile" clubs though. First off the numbers do not match and you will not get a cummins that makes 1000hp and 1000ft of torque but I garantee 1000 of anything is not its designed output. What was the 5.9 originaly designed for? How is a custom built motor from haisley have any bearing on what is a better motor for the average Joe? Look at an L88 at it hight of glory, do you think GM tried to leave much HP on the table with thier flag ship motor/car? No but I can now build a BBC that out performs one and is over its designed specs........never freaking mind this is turning into a rant.

The next few years will be an interesting time in the diesel world.


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## ProSeasons (Nov 30, 2000)

ratlover

Good rant. It's wrong, but good rant anyway!

An I-6 with it's longer stroke AND the advantage of slower burning diesel fuel is where the Cummins 5.9 gets it's legendary power.

But you are right about one thing. The three 1000 horsepower plus Dodges DO NOT get 1000 pound feet of torque.

They put out around 1800 pound feet. 

A V-8 will get up there in HP, but it just cant produce the torque to go along with it.


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## justme- (Dec 28, 2004)

Bear in mind that the old GM (DD) engines ( you know- the 6-71 series for example) were 2 stroke, not 4, and were short stroke engines that needed the supercharger to make power. 2 strokes always run higher rpms. As to the Diesel/Gass stroke/power- try Gale Banks website among others on Diesel engine theory, I believe there was an article in their newsletter about that some time ago- I have several Diesel mechanics theory and instruction manuals I can refer you to if you would like.

Longer stroke necessitates lower RPM because it simply takes longer for the pistons to complete their stroke and therefore the crank to complete a revolution- longer stroke also means a longer lever for the combustion arm hence more torque.

Also check out Gale Banks top line kit for the Cummins B5.9- it will gurantee 1000Ft Lbs of tourque (Fourwheeler I think did a test on it- I have a copy of the article which Banks will be happy to send anyone who asks for it) by changing the intake manifold, exhaust, fuel cam and boost valve. restoring many of the Chrysler deleted parts.

Isuzu is not owned by GM- they are partnered just like Mitsubishi and Dodge. GM is the American partner for them, Suzuki, Fiat and Fuji/Subaru but they don't own any of them.
From Isuzu's FAQ
1. How long has Isuzu been in business?
Isuzu Motors Limited, Japan's oldest vehicle manufacturer began car production in 1916 and soon followed with trucks in 1918. Isuzu Motors America, Inc. has been distributing and marketing Isuzu vehicles in the United States since 1981. 

Cummins B5.98 was designed to put out 500Hp in medium heavy duty applications- 6/10 wheel trucks, Marine power etc. The design issues are more involved than upping the power- a Cummins block weight alot more than either a PSD or a Duramax block because there is alot more cast iron in it and in places it is needed for the power it was designed to output. Navstar (IH) made a light weight engine for the class with certain power requirements in mind- the designed output is less than the B5.9.
Incidently- I never said 1K HP and 1Kft Lbs- I said 600 HP and 1K Ft Lbs- thank you, Proseasons for the added correction.

Ok, I wasn't aware Chevy used the same Duramax in the smaller Kodiaks- makes sense tho- the output power hasn't changed they simply add more gears behind it in the tranny (check out the Allison models)- that's how they did the old Macks, FWD, Federals, etc with the venerable Cummins 292- why else to semi trucks have 10+ gears- tons of torque you simply add another gear and keep going. Kind of reminds me of the 305/350 in the pickups of the 80's- the 305 would move a 3/4 ton pickup but if you wanted to actually carry anything in the truck and wanted it to handle better than a wet spinge you needed the 350. The 6500 Kodiak offers the Caterpillar C7.

Trannys don't care what stroke they're behind, correct- I didn't say they did. They do care how much torque they are getting and (more importantly- what I said) what RPM's they're getting it at.

The next few years will indeed be interesting to the diesel world- the era of poor quality no sulpher fuel is upon us as is emissions testing is several states for diesels (which means absolutly nothing as anyone who knows diesels knows). Chrysler also may be offering Caterpillar engines- they had talks going in 2000 and I believe own a portion of the company's stock just as Ford did in the 80's with Cummins.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

Would you mind telling me what part of my rant was wrong? I am here to learn and if I am missguided in my info plese tell me.

What do the old GM engins have to do with anything??? Show me a NA diesel that makes any power? What does anything in that first paragraph have to do with anything actaully?

The allison 1000 series in the 4500's and 5500's is a 5 speed OD auto trans. the allison 1000 availible for the 2500hd's and 3500's is still a 5 speed OD. Would you mind telling me what gear ratios are available in an allison 1000 for a 4500-5500 and a pu truck? I'm curious to see these wide differences. The 8500's dont use a 6.6l, they use a 7.8 duramax, a gasser 8.1(yuk  ), or a CAT

Ok, isuzu is a "joint partnership" or what ever  

Gale banks also offers a kit for a 1000hp twin turboed 350 IIRC. What does that have to do with the price of tea in china? You can buy a crate motor from Banks for god knows how much $$$ or you can buy one program for a duramax and get 1000lbft or you could throw some injectors, pump work and turbos on a cummins and easily get that. What does that have to do with anything?

I dont need any info on diesel theory but am alwasy up for some good reading.

Longer stroke means more leverage yes. It also means(as you alluded to) that the longer your stroke the faster your piston is moving. Diesel dosnt make itself better suited for long stroke low rpm, the long stroke makes for the lower rpm. Diesel fuel burns at a certian "speed" and its most efficent when it is harnessed in a specific "speed range" You stoke and rpm determins your piston speed witch.....awww never mind..........I can talk with proS. but you


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## ProSeasons (Nov 30, 2000)

Your rant was wrong in two areas,

You basic theory of a gas vrs diesel is also way skewed. it has nothing to do with the stroke of the motor. The reason a diesel produces the power the way it does is becasue the fuel it burns. the reason diesel operates at a lower rpm is becasue the fuel it burns. pure and simple. 

It's the fuel AND the longer stroke. Increased leverage, like you said. Take a 350 hp Powerstroke, Duramax and Cummins, all rated at 350 hp.

The Cummins will make more torque. More torque, more power.

You start uping the power and no crap it will be detrimental to life, a 500hp cummins isnt going to live as long as a babied stocker. 

Actually, this isn't necessarily true either. Lower your compression and ****** your timing while increasing manifold pressure WILL get you up around 550- 600 hp while INCREASING the usable life of the (diesel) motor. Not as much cylinder pressure at lower boost levels and NO timing. Timing advance will KILL engine life.

Your thinking SEEMS to me to be along the lines of gasoline powered performance. Diesel performance is a different animal. Your theories on gasser high performance is dead on, though. Not alot of crossover to diesel, unfortunately.


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## alpine692003 (Dec 31, 2003)

Would you guys recommend using a DIESEL to snowplow or just stay with a gas vehicle?


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## ProSeasons (Nov 30, 2000)

alpine692003

Let's see...

Twice the Torque,
Twice the fuel mileage,
Less maintenance,
Twice the longevity,

Any of Detroit's Big Three, you cant go wrong.

Today's turbodiesels are amazing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

alpine692003 said:


> Would you guys recommend using a DIESEL to snowplow or just stay with a gas vehicle?


Absolutely!


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## apkole (Mar 1, 2003)

"use a diesel to plow snow" . . . 

What Mark O. said. If you work the truck, the initial cost difference for the diesel option is a no brainer. Shoot, it's worth the difference for the grin factor alone.

JustMe,

Good post!

"The 5.9 series was DESIGNED to put out 500+ hp . . . ."

I think that's the point the Chevy and Ford people are missing. In the horsepower and torque wars  , the Cummins in the Dodge application is rated well below what the engine is capable of in STOCK form. In Marine applications, that 5.9 design routinely runs 600 hp. In the Marine application, thats 600 hp at near max throttle for hours non-stop. . . . not just a 1/4 mile run or a 300' pulling track. 

Sooo, whenever the C or F guys nudge their hp up a notch, they are chasing a Cummins design which has a LOT of reserve left.

However, the stickler is getting the trans behind the engine to hold up as the power is increased. And I believe that a little research will prove that the stock auto trans in any one of the big three is not very tolerant of non-stock engines. 

Just my 2 cents.

Andy


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## alpine692003 (Dec 31, 2003)

That's cool.. you guys have been helpful!



Now, if I could just get 1 more snow fall and use up this ice melter pallet :salute:


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## sammy198 (Feb 6, 2005)

here are the specs on the marine 5.9 isb


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## rtm038 (Jan 23, 2002)

I think both trucks are good and both have pros and cons, like anything else in life. However, for plowing I've always gone with the Dodge/Cummins combo and, knock on wood, I've never been let down. IMHO, the Cummins is a great engine because it produces lots of power down low, there's no "dead-pedal" issues- instant throttle response, has a bulletproof design and a proven track record of reliability. 

As for transmissions, I have a 2004 3500 Cummins HO/Auto with 25,000+ miles and 2 plow seasons under it's belt and haven't had a single problem yet. Just my .02 cents.


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## apkole (Mar 1, 2003)

sammy198,

Thanks for that post! Looks like I was just a little optimistic on the power rating of the ISB in marine applications. I had heard that 600 hp number a few times and took it as gospel.  Shucks, just when I was gettin' to think I knew it all, too.

It is interesting how the engine gets derated as the duty cycle is increased though. I spoke to a friend this morning who is a Cummins tech and installs these engines in yachts. He says they assume a yacht would usually be operated at WOT only for about an hour or so. Tug boat applications would have the lower rated engine for long hours of hard work. Probably the same is true for the 5.9s used in agricultural applications (Case/IH Magnum series tractors). 

The last V8 diesels I saw in farm tractors were a John Deere with a Cat and I believe that Massey Ferguson used a Perkins V8 for a few years. Interesting that the ag guys have gone back to the I6 for longevity and torque. 

It would be interesting to know what NON truck and bus applications the Isuzu and IH pickup diesels are used in though.


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## jeffwoehrle (Dec 23, 2003)

"...The last V8 diesels I saw in farm tractors were a John Deere with a Cat and I believe that Massey Ferguson used a Perkins V8 for a few years. Interesting that the ag guys have gone back to the I6 for longevity and torque. ..."

And the railroad continues to use massive V engines for what, s**** and giggles? 

http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=37533&x=7#loco

You wanna talk longevity and torque...


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## Chevytruck85 (Nov 22, 2004)

there both junk go with the chevy duramax/allison you cant go wrong with that!!


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## apkole (Mar 1, 2003)

jeffw,

Now THAT'S interesting. I wonder what the requirements are that would move the RR to use a V8 configuration over an inline? Any thoughts?


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## ProSeasons (Nov 30, 2000)

Because the diesel in a locomotive DON'T move the train. Not an inch.

The V-8 diesels in locomotives ONLY turn the massive generator and air compressor. You can't beat a V-8 for for quick ramps up the powerband or RPMs.

There are mighty electric traction motors on each axle of a loco for motive power. The only motor in the world that can achieve full torque rating at ANY rpm.


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## alpine692003 (Dec 31, 2003)

:salute:

GM sucks!


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## snowmaster (Jan 15, 2005)

I Have A 02 Dodge 3500 4x4 With 9ft Plow Its Auto And Pulls A Bobcat All Summer .never Had A Problem With It The Cummins Is Atough Reliable Engine Trannys Holding Up Good. I Confess I Beat The Hell Out Of It And Dont Maintain It At All. So Far So Good


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## alpine692003 (Dec 31, 2003)

I see, I hope the sames goes for me and my 1500 RAM 97.


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## jeffwoehrle (Dec 23, 2003)

apkole said:


> jeffw,
> 
> Now THAT'S interesting. I wonder what the requirements are that would move the RR to use a V8 configuration over an inline? Any thoughts?


Not sure exactly, but there is a obvious preference. Seems most electric generators are V configs as well.

Now, if the Ford and Chebby guys used the same convoluted logic that the Dodge boys use, all pickups should have V-8s because all locomotives do. (A previous post...perhaps not in this thread...extolled the virtues of inline engines by saying most linehaul trucks used them. What this has to do with PICKUPS is a great question.  )

===ProSeasons wrote: "...You can't beat a V-8 for for quick ramps up the powerband or RPMs..."

Gee, maybe that's why the Powerstroke is a V-8? Remember, these are PICKUPS, not linehaul rigs.

The bottom line here is that this forum discusses plowing mostly with pickups. What engine is in a linehaul truck, or a locomotive, for that matter, is irrelevant.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

A slower burning fuel drives the need for a slower piston speed, the longer the stroke the faster the piston needs to move for each revolution. Piston speed is whats important although piston speed is related to rpm and stroke. Were on the same page just looking at things a bit different I believe. Piston speed is very important in a gasser but its ussually that you limit piston speed becasue piston speed is what determins were the motor will fly apart at(assuming you dont float your valves), generally in a gasser ou dont have to worry about exeding the burn rate for it, you have to have a looooong stroke and be turning some wicked R's. 

I still say the higher the HP the less life your going to have regardless what kinda cylinder pressures you are running normaly. If I have 500hp I'm going to use it by god as often as possible  

Also not seeing how reducing compression will increase the life at a lower load will do anything in a pu application. A vehical requires a certian HP level to maintain a specific cruise speed. The rpms are also not going to change. Hows dropping compression going to alter the life expecatncy of a truck just driving at 65mph say? Just curios. Also think its a slightly non issue since a deccent maintained cummins or even a 350 gasser will outlive what ever truck its in anywho.....but for the sake of argument

You guys are also forgeting one benifit of a I motor compared to a V design. Ever seen how wide a V motor is compared to a simmilar displacment I motor? I makes for easier packaging.


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## ProSeasons (Nov 30, 2000)

ratlover,

Dude! A diesel IS a COMPRESSION ENGINE!!!! The wear and tear in a compression engine literally begins AT IGNITION in a diesel! THINK TIMING!!!

LOWER the CR and ****** the timing! Think about it for a second. The engine stops working as hard under normal driving conditions, and when you put the boots to it, you achieve the rated cylinder pressure WITH TEN TIMES MORE OXYGEN in the air charge! Spray the fuel in at TDC. You can enjoy high horsepower and NONE of the wear associated with advanced timing. Having high RPMs in a diesel application is counter-productive as most diesels peak in torque around 1800 RPMs.

Timing will kill a diesel. Lift the friggin' head right off the block.


Jeff

The guy who started the thread wanted to know what engine is better suited for working. Plowing snow, towing a trailer, etc, is working. The pick ups in this industry are worked just as hard proportionally, to a class 8 tractor. Having an engine one can count on gives the business owner one less thing to worry about. There ain't a snowplow in the world worth a dang without some internal combustion behind it.


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## ProSeasons (Nov 30, 2000)

Once again, 

The V-8 in a locomotive IS a generator. The diesel is not responsible for moving (directly) the train.

V-8s are best suited for turning generators because of thier ability to achieve high RPMs.

Let me also say an I-6 could not move a train either. The size requirement alone would mandate half the train be allocated to transporting the necessary diesel fuel for the trip. The mileage of an such an engine would be, well.....stupid.

Locomtives (Modern freight application) generally put down around 6000 base horsepower.


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## jeffwoehrle (Dec 23, 2003)

ProSeasons:

Although the diesel engine does not actually move the train, the engine is still the prime mover, much like in a backhoe the engine drives a hydraulic pump, which in turn pushes the cylinders and turns the hydraulic motor to move the unit. Same concept, but I do get your meaning.

A Caterpillar 3516 has about 2200 brake horsepower (BHP). This is CAT's largest locomotive engine and is also used in generator applications (standby and prime) in a 1.8 megawatt capacity. One million, eight hundred thousand watts! That's a lot of light bulbs.

Methinks CAT has a larger engine that uses natural gas, but I'm not sure. The 3516 is the largest in the diesel column, at least in the US.

So in answer to the guy's original question, get the diesel. :bluebounc 


Good discussion...


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

Thats one nice thing about the HPCR injection. Gets lotsa fuel in there in a small amount of time. 

There is a program out for the duramax that is pretty timing heavy, the damn think makes it sound like an old powerstroke. Guys been running it hard and pulling and drag racing and tearing the hell outa it on the street. There are alot of guys for more personal reasons dont like this program and like to bash it for its excessive noise and timing and how its killing the motor......hasnt yet. 6.5 guys gotta drop the compression if they are doing much if any work to em and they still dont hold a candle to a new duramax or PS or cummins. My truck still sounds like stock rolling down the road, no timing rattle. Even at WOT no nasty timing rattle. I fail to see how I'm hurting my motor by cruising down the road playing nice? So now the duramax isnt as good of a design becasue it uses higher comprssion??? Splitting hairs here IMO


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## ProSeasons (Nov 30, 2000)

No, that's not what I said.

I said if you chose to lower the compression on your D-max, it would not "age" like the stock version. I know you have seen rod and main bearings flattened on one side from big timing? Jim Fulmer, the Oklahoma Dyno King, tears his apart every 100,000 miles or so. It needs rods and mains all the time!

What is the CR on your Duramax by the way? Does your TTS Extreme Program advance your timing? Do you know how much?

Your right, you sure can hear the death rattle when someone has their timing pushed up. You say yours is sounding pretty smooth though. It's probably a pretty happy diesel, then. 

They cruise effortlessly with no timing, don't they?


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## Stark_Enterprises (Mar 6, 2004)

The New Ram Trannys are Not Horrible at all!!! I think you may have meant Ford! The 04-05 Superduty's are a wreck! My friend just Bought 2 New ones a 04 f350 pickup- Tranny Went at 1500k and they put the repair kit in and it went again at 2700k. He also bought a f350 Dually dump and That Tranny Went at 3000k Right in the middle of a Storm Too. Man he was pissed! YOU absoutly CAN NOT Go Wrong if you Go With a New Dodge Ram CTD 2500 or 3500 auto or 5 or 6 spd. I See more and more on the Road every Day! I belive if Ford Continues to Have PowerStorke and/or Transmission problems You WILL see dodge Take over Heavy Duty Pick up sales especailly with The new Models like the RAm 4500 , Ram 5500 and a Ram Crew Cab option ( bigger doors than the quad cab ones) Coming out late this year and early next year. 
GO WITH DODGE!!!


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## diesel62 (Feb 4, 2005)

unless the medium duty truck industry has changed in the last year,ford and freightliner,which both use the 5.9 cummins as the base diesel,do not offer a 500hp 5.9.i have never seen a 5.9 with 500 hp in a medium truck. one more thought to consider,regardless of the hp rateing the 5.9 and the 7.3,6.0 engines used in medium duty trucks have very similar trq rateings.example the 6.0 215hp,540trq ,the 7.3 210hp,520trq ,the 5.9 210hp,520trq.. other hp rateings have the same basic result. wether they be higher or lower.i will also add this,medium dutys in a side by side comparrison,same hp,rear ratio and trannys. a 7.3 equipped truck or bus is a little better performer,than a 5.9 equipped truck. i cannot speak for the 6.0 because i have not owned one in a medium.i have spoken with many bus drivers and bus mechanics,along with a few city municipal drivers,all spoke highly of the 6.0 ...


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## diesel62 (Feb 4, 2005)

justme- said:


> Ratlover- Uh, Not sure what you mean. Everything I said in the last post was either gleaned from industry info (I work related to the auto industry), from my neighbor/mechanic (transmission specialist who's shop does most of the warranty work for the local Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler dealers as well as most of the area's Police fleet), Cummins Northeast, many sources relating to the Dodge Cummins Rams on the net (TDR/Dodgeram.org/Dirt/Dodgeram.com/etc.), Ford Zone Office, Local service techs at the above mentioned and other local dealerships, and a few other places like personal experiance, my father who owned 3 service stations in the 70's and drag raced Chrysler's among others.
> 
> I am not brand blinded- I grew up a Ford boy, until I owned one. Almost bought another instead of my Dodge 5 years ago but the wait for a PSD truck was 6 months- (wanted an F350 PSD- cheaper than the Dodge and more robust than the Chevy for work) and my wife (back when she was still my girlfriend) used to work for a Lincoln-Mercury dealer.
> My family owned 2 K5 blazer's (1983 and a 1985) for many years (1 is still sitting by the side of the house waiting for spring to be put up for sale (8 MPG is a killer!), My Dump is a Chevy, I Drove an S10 blazer for several years.
> ...


 not to be rude,but gm has not owned detroit since the early 90,s ,penszke bought them out,and now detroit is owned by diamler,as of about a year or two ago...


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## GDH (Dec 24, 2002)

*Gdh*

I own an 03 2500 w/HO diesel and 48RE auto w/29.7k miles, every service done religiously, tows but not plowed with...go to the Dodge truck forum and look under Transmission losing OD and you'll see my tales of woe. It was at the dealer for a whole week recently. 3 days being diagnosed (this was the second trip in for this problem) and then 2 days for the parts to arrive and to be installed (throttle position sensor assembly, accelerator control). Last night (first time I drove it since bringing it home last Friday) the OD disappears again. On the return trip last night it worked fine and it did so again today but this is obviously NOT fixed 100% yet. I am taking it back to the dealer I purchased it from on Friday (one hour away) as he sells a LOT more of these trucks then my local dealer. I am hoping he has a tech that knows what is up. I am actually on this Ford forum because I am now thinking about trading the Dodge in.....Other then this transmission issue this truck has been fine but I am not to excited about having it tied up for days at a time while service techs try to figure out what is happening.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Dodge_PlowKing said:


> The New Ram Trannys are Not Horrible at all!!! I think you may have meant Ford! The 04-05 Superduty's are a wreck! My friend just Bought 2 New ones a 04 f350 pickup- Tranny Went at 1500k and they put the repair kit in and it went again at 2700k. He also bought a f350 Dually dump and That Tranny Went at 3000k Right in the middle of a Storm Too. Man he was pissed! YOU absoutly CAN NOT Go Wrong if you Go With a New Dodge Ram CTD 2500 or 3500 auto or 5 or 6 spd. I See more and more on the Road every Day! I belive if Ford Continues to Have PowerStorke and/or Transmission problems You WILL see dodge Take over Heavy Duty Pick up sales especailly with The new Models like the RAm 4500 , Ram 5500 and a Ram Crew Cab option ( bigger doors than the quad cab ones) Coming out late this year and early next year.
> GO WITH DODGE!!!


Regarding the 4500\5500's, is this fact or rumor? This rumor has been around for a long time.

I won't argue the Ford 5 speed tranny issue, we've had 2 go out. A local tranny shop highly recommended we stay away from the Dodge tranny, though. I am going to look at a Dodge because of the crap I am getting out of Ford on these 2 trucks, though. Even if the stock Dodge tranny isn't very good, at least it's been out long enough that there are aftermarket kits to make them bulletproof. This is what I would more than likely do, despite the warranty.


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## apkole (Mar 1, 2003)

Ahhh, GrassHopper Mark,

You ARE considering coming back the Dark Side!

Check out www.turbodieselregister.com under the forums section. Go to the General Diesel Topics forum and look for the Pix of Megacab thread. Of course the problem is that no one seems to know for sure a go date for production.

Or go to www.pickuptrucks.com and check out under the Dodge Truck forum for the MegaCab press release kit.

You might want to talk to Kelvin as he said that 24 of the 25 signatures were on board to make the 4500/5500 chassis a go.

Andy

Oh and hey, how about that 1"-3" prediction for today.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Yes I am. About the only thing that would keep me from buying a Dodge right now is if Ford\Duthler will put some extended warranties on our '04 and '05. I'm not going to hold my breath on that.

Haven't spoke with Gene, yet, but I will be soon. I need to check out a few things on the Dodges, too, it's been a while.

I'm more interested in the 4500/5500 rumor than the MegaCab, though. This has been floating around forever. If it is true that the bailout in the 80's is what prevented them from making these size trucks, I can't imagine that limitation would be forever.

I loved it. Went through a bunch of salt.  payup And for once it came early enough. 

PS One of our salt trucks went by a certain company's building on Oak Industrial at 6 AM, not a car, salter, shoveler to be seen. Somebody slept good. Bet there were some happy customers there.


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## apkole (Mar 1, 2003)

Ummm, yeah.

Kelvin's comment was specific to the production of the heavier chassis.

10-4 on that Oak Industrial location. One of my accounts called me at 6 am wondering where the salt truck was. I called later this morning and they said they started at 7:30. Just a little slow on the trigger there, Sparky.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I know of some companies that started at 2 AM. They could have helped out and got quite a few of those finished for 'that company'. lol


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## Bossplower (Feb 21, 2003)

*transmissions*

Before I bought my Dodge I went to a couple trans. shops and they said go with the 48re. They said Dodge has fixed any major problems and they are holding up the best. My last truck (that I still have ) 97 6.5 td GMC has a solid tranny in it . I did the same thing in 97, went to trans shops . Thay said go with the GM tranny so I bought a GM. In 97 Ford had electronic overdrive problems In the PSD and Dodge couldn't hold up to all the power. GM trannies seem to hold up well . Now the Dodge is ok. I've heard a lot of people say with under 25k on there Duramax that the tranny went up. Allison's aren't bullet proof . None of them are! 
I don't know which ones are the best so I ask the guys who work on them everyday. So far so good! I think the Ford is getting worked out now and wouldn't be afraid to buy one.
Fact : Dodge Cummins has 40% less moving parts than the other two . 
Steve


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