# This guy is nuts



## FeelLikeANumber (Oct 15, 2005)

Upon surfing Craigslist I stumbled across this guy. I dont know what everybody else charges per driveway but I know my prices start at about 1/3 what this guys charging for a driveway..... Maybe I'm the idiot.

http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/sks/557809505.html


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## DFLS (Dec 24, 2007)

FeelLikeANumber;512336 said:


> Upon surfing Craigslist I stumbled across this guy. I dont know what everybody else charges per driveway but I know my prices start at about 1/3 what this guys charging for a driveway..... Maybe I'm the idiot.
> 
> http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/sks/557809505.html


Does he mean $45 ussmileyflag or $45 tymusic?

Maybe he starts high cause he knows customers will bargain with him.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

FeelLikeANumber;512336 said:


> Upon surfing Craigslist I stumbled across this guy. I dont know what everybody else charges per driveway but I know my prices start at about 1/3 what this guys charging for a driveway..... Maybe I'm the idiot.
> 
> http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/sks/557809505.html


"traditional driveway" is a very local/regional thing. But here my min was $40 at the beginning of the season and I'm hard pressed to take on anything less than $50 now


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

i would say that he is in line, with the cost of equiptment repairs you gotta make some $$$$$.... we shelled out a pump on our loader last week while stacking snow and the pump alone is $2500(probably $3500 with labor).....last year we shelled out 1 drive motor on our skid loader while plowing and the total bill with a oil change was $4000... IMO it's never too much for plowing, it's never enough $$$$


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

2 - trucks and a rough winter I am looking at about $3500.oo in repairs this year. 

Everything hit at once and one is only a back up truck.

Add a crushed salter in the mix for another grand and you can see that repairs at times can put you in the hole if you are not charging properly.


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

um, $45.00 is my minimum..

if the kid down the street does it for 20-25 with a shovel and goes door to door and I have to drive there and use my equipment, pay for gas, insurance, maint. of equipment and manage there account. It is going to be double of what he charges.


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## WI OLY (Oct 7, 2007)

With the cost of overhead in this business I won't even start my truck for under $50.00. I don't even mess with residential.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

WI OLY;512594 said:


> With the cost of overhead in this business I won't even start my truck for under $50.00. I don't even mess with residential.


I'm with ya there only my start up price is a bit more.

Only resi I do is my own.


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## MileHigh (Nov 6, 2007)

FeelLikeANumber;512336 said:


> Upon surfing Craigslist I stumbled across this guy. I dont know what everybody else charges per driveway but I know my prices start at about 1/3 what this guys charging for a driveway..... Maybe I'm the idiot.
> 
> http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/sks/557809505.html


I think your just way to low!!!


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## SteveJ (Jan 30, 2008)

FeelLikeANumber;512336 said:


> I know my prices start at about 1/3 what this guys charging for a driveway..... Maybe I'm the idiot.


Ahhhhh, well you said it, I didn't.


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## FeelLikeANumber (Oct 15, 2005)

I'd still be suprised to see somebody pay 45 for a "typical driveway." I do 15 driveways and two commercial lots and in my mind a "typical driveway" is approx the width of 2 cars and about 20 ft. in length. Total time it takes me with a 6.5 ft plow, no rear window defroster, frozen windshield wipers is about 10 minutes and then its on to the next one. Not all of my driveways are that way and the price does go up on bigger driveways and commercial lots or when the snowfall is more than 6in. When I first started I was told to aim for approx. $60 an hour and at my prices I hit prob. $45+ per hour while plowing for myself and thats on a relaxed time schedule. Maybe for some of you its different because of location or avg. snowfall but around here I dont think $20 a "typical" driveway is a bad price to pay.


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## veggin psd (Feb 8, 2007)

Jay brown;512401 said:


> i would say that he is in line, with the cost of equiptment repairs you gotta make some $$$$$.... we shelled out a pump on our loader last week while stacking snow and the pump alone is $2500(probably $3500 with labor).....last year we shelled out 1 drive motor on our skid loader while plowing and the total bill with a oil change was $4000... IMO it's never too much for plowing, it's never enough $$$$


I agree. I can tell you from first hand experience that a Superduty transmission on my Powerstroke costs $2898! Should have heard the noise when it let go plowing the other night! Sounded like a deer rifle touched off in my back seat!


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

FeelLikeANumber;512676 said:


> I'd still be suprised to see somebody pay 45 for a "typical driveway." I do 15 driveways and two commercial lots and in my mind a "typical driveway" is approx the width of 2 cars and about 20 ft. in length. Total time it takes me with a 6.5 ft plow, no rear window defroster, frozen windshield wipers is about 10 minutes and then its on to the next one. Not all of my driveways are that way and the price does go up on bigger driveways and commercial lots or when the snowfall is more than 6in. When I first started I was told to aim for approx. $60 an hour and at my prices I hit prob. $45+ per hour while plowing for myself and thats on a relaxed time schedule. Maybe for some of you its different because of location or avg. snowfall but around here I dont think $20 a "typical" driveway is a bad price to pay.


10 minutes for a 20x20 driveway? You could shovel faster than that. You're LOW on the prices there bud. If you think $45/hr is a decent return on your investment please just leave the truck parked and let the professionals take over. We have subs here who get $60/hr at a minimum. They at least don't have to deal with customers, invoices, collections, late payers, etc.

My smallest driveway is about 15 wide and 30 feet long, 3 pushes, $40 and 90 seconds later I'm GONE! on to the next one. I have some driveways that take 10 minutes, but they're $120+


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## abbert55 (Jan 13, 2006)

Stateline,
I agree with you on the $45.00 per hour. If you are getting 9 MPG when you plow snow, you won't have much left after expenses. However, if you look at where you are geographically and where we are, there is a big differance. You boys out East always charge more for your services. I don't live too far from K-Zoo and we charge the going rate of $25.00 for an average driveway (up from $20.00 last year). I also charge $70.00 per hour straight time. This is a little more than most here of $65.00 but I have an 860 SpeedWing. I can move 1/3 more snow than most others. We live in an area of fierce competition (heavy building) and that more than anything else determines the price for your area you can charge. Also K-Zoo Mi. is seeing a real hard time econ wise and the prices for services reflect that.
Thanx for your time,


Al


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## NBI Lawn (Oct 15, 2007)

I think he is in line. People pay for fast service. Ya cant be fast if your 85' Chev is broke down. Like many guys on here I drive a $45,000 truck which cant be paid for by doing driveways at $15 each .


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## YardMedic (Nov 29, 2006)

I wouldn't generally see $45 for a driveway here in NH for anything under 9" in accumulation, but that's only because I have an established clientelle where I'm pretty maxxed out on most storms. Now, if I had extra room in my route each storm, I'd be happy to put in an add for 50% more than a "standard" push for out this way, knowing that (1) they could be single timers, (2) I don't NEED the work because I have a route already, and (3) it keeps the call volume down some because not everyone will pay a $45 push


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## diesel dust (Feb 26, 2004)

$45 per drive is on the low side for my drives per hour average $ 200.payup


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## NJ Plowman (Dec 10, 2003)

Yes, I would have to agre that you are the idiot for plowing a driveway for 1/3 of $45.00!  :realmad:


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## 04superduty (Jan 9, 2004)

BSDeality;512699 said:


> 10 minutes for a 20x20 driveway? You could shovel faster than that. You're LOW on the prices there bud. If you think $45/hr is a decent return on your investment please just leave the truck parked and let the professionals take over. We have subs here who get $60/hr at a minimum. They at least don't have to deal with customers, invoices, collections, late payers, etc.
> 
> My smallest driveway is about 15 wide and 30 feet long, 3 pushes, $40 and 90 seconds later I'm GONE! on to the next one. I have some driveways that take 10 minutes, but they're $120+


unfortunately plowing like many things is regional. $45 per hour is pretty good around here for a sub, and you wont make much more on your own. their are just to many people plowing for beer money driving trucks that belong in the junk yard.


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## mnormington (Dec 18, 2007)

FeelLikeANumber;512336 said:


> Upon surfing Craigslist I stumbled across this guy. I dont know what everybody else charges per driveway but I know my prices start at about 1/3 what this guys charging for a driveway..... Maybe I'm the idiot.
> 
> http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/sks/557809505.html


you're joking, right? good one.


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## FeelLikeANumber (Oct 15, 2005)

Wow, common sense is obviously not a critical factor in reply's. As some had pointed out this is Michigan....and comparing snowfall in MI to CT snowfall or pricing is about the same as comparing produce in Michigan to produce in Florida.....Apples to Oranges. If I price a driveway at 20 per push its because thats the going rate around here and its only suprising that some cocky "professional" decides that he can price his that much higher because he thinks his time is more valuable, which is all based on personality. If a driveway only takes you three swipes and thirty seconds then obviously you arent in it for the customer as much as you're just in it for the quick buck and arent really that concerned about public relations. Maybe once in a while you hop out of the vehicle and say "hi" they might just recommend you to a neighbor or friend. Lesson learned in lawn/snow biz. do right by the customer once in a while = repeat business, Do a quick in and out and lose contracts next year. Long and short..........$45 a driveway doesnt fly in MI it may be the norm. in other states, all I was pointing out is that fellow Michiganders would agree, this guy is out of his ballpark. Take what you can get in your area but around here you're not gonna get ripped off like that.


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## Blazin (Mar 18, 2007)

I am in New Hampshire as well. I do all residential, including three apt. buildings biggest one is four units.
My smallest driveway three to four passes with a 9 foot plow, all angled to the left, at a 45 degree angle, off a state maintained road is $25 and takes me about two or three minutes.
My largest driveway is about 400' long is a constant grade from a right of way road. Has a turn in it part about half way up and the grade lessens after that, to a small parking / turn around area at the top. I get $100 per storm for it. I also charge for two storms anything over 10". I also charge the same for sand as I do for plow.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

FeelLikeANumber;513280 said:


> Wow, common sense is obviously not a critical factor in reply's. As some had pointed out this is Michigan....and comparing snowfall in MI to CT snowfall or pricing is about the same as comparing produce in Michigan to produce in Florida.....Apples to Oranges. If I price a driveway at 20 per push its because thats the going rate around here and its only suprising that some cocky "professional" decides that he can price his that much higher because he thinks his time is more valuable, which is all based on personality. If a driveway only takes you three swipes and thirty seconds then obviously you arent in it for the customer as much as you're just in it for the quick buck and arent really that concerned about public relations. Maybe once in a while you hop out of the vehicle and say "hi" they might just recommend you to a neighbor or friend. Lesson learned in lawn/snow biz. do right by the customer once in a while = repeat business, Do a quick in and out and lose contracts next year. Long and short..........$45 a driveway doesnt fly in MI it may be the norm. in other states, all I was pointing out is that fellow Michiganders would agree, this guy is out of his ballpark. Take what you can get in your area but around here you're not gonna get ripped off like that.


I have a hard time believing $20/drives are the norm. How can anyone still make any money at those rates driving all over town? I know my fuel, insurance and equipment costs have been going no where but UP, UP & UP every year for... wait, forever. The problem is the 'old companys' are not raising prices every year because they're too chickenshiz to lose a customer. Instead they dig their own graves and the market is killed. It happened here with the lawn care industry too. We have guys going around mowing 1acre lawns for $25 and "good job". That was the price in 1985 to mow a 1acre lawn! You're telling me all the costs are the same as they were 20+ years ago?!

People pay for quality service around here. I provide it, they pay for it. I'm not holding the gun to anyones head here, THEY CHOOSE ME, they like the way I operate my business. They like the fact that I'm efficient. They like the fact that I provide a professional service in a timely manner. If not they would go with one of the beer money guys who will "get around to it" whenever he gets done with his other side-jobs. Trust me there are plenty of them. I know what my competition charges and I charge more because I provide quality services in a prompt manner without having to be prompted from my customer. This year alone I've added more than a dozen customers from referrals. If I didn't provide customer service I would not keep my customers from year to year. Just FYI, I do get out of my truck once in a while 

Here's an excerpt from an email I got from one of my customers.

" Have I told you lately how much I like my new plow company!!!! they won my mother over yesterday when they rang the bell and told her to be careful at the bottom of the driveway in case she was going out. They did address the black ice issue. Top notch."

hmm, heres a different customer..

"John said they came around 4 or some to plow -- I think this is the first time in the history of living here that a) the driveway was done before John had to leave b) my back walkway was done (and quite well I might add!!)...thanks"

Customer service is my middle name and my prices reflect that! Both of those customers were referrals came from other guys who were charging much less than I am. Neither one balked at my prices because they were won over by my services. One of those accounts is over $125 a visit. The other is over $75.

Being nice gets you work and happy customers
Being nice and not charging for your time makes happy customers, leaves you with nothing left over. 
Being Nice and charging for your time = happy customers and a happy bank account.

The bottom line is CHARGE AS MUCH AS THE MARKET WILL BEAR!


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## lawntec (Aug 20, 2006)

> Does he mean $45 ussmileyflag or $45 tymusic ?


They are the same. A while a go we were 10% higher.tymusictymusic


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## rjfetz1 (Dec 2, 2006)

Jay brown;512401 said:


> i would say that he is in line, with the cost of equiptment repairs you gotta make some $$$$$.... we shelled out a pump on our loader last week while stacking snow and the pump alone is $2500(probably $3500 with labor).....last year we shelled out 1 drive motor on our skid loader while plowing and the total bill with a oil change was $4000... IMO it's never too much for plowing, it's never enough $$$$


Do you use this equipment in the spring/summer/fall?? If so then I guess the repair costs should be covered from work other than snow too - right?


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## rjfetz1 (Dec 2, 2006)

Jay brown;512401 said:


> i would say that he is in line, with the cost of equiptment repairs you gotta make some $$$$$.... we shelled out a pump on our loader last week while stacking snow and the pump alone is $2500(probably $3500 with labor).....last year we shelled out 1 drive motor on our skid loader while plowing and the total bill with a oil change was $4000... IMO it's never too much for plowing, it's never enough $$$$





FeelLikeANumber;512676 said:


> I'd still be suprised to see somebody pay 45 for a "typical driveway." I do 15 driveways and two commercial lots and in my mind a "typical driveway" is approx the width of 2 cars and about 20 ft. in length. Total time it takes me with a 6.5 ft plow, no rear window defroster, frozen windshield wipers is about 10 minutes and then its on to the next one. Not all of my driveways are that way and the price does go up on bigger driveways and commercial lots or when the snowfall is more than 6in. When I first started I was told to aim for approx. $60 an hour and at my prices I hit prob. $45+ per hour while plowing for myself and thats on a relaxed time schedule. Maybe for some of you its different because of location or avg. snowfall but around here I dont think $20 a "typical" driveway is a bad price to pay.


Hey - I agree with you 100% - Sometimes it seems people just like to make up numbers to make them selves look like they should be wearing a suit & tie....LOL


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## Michael M (Nov 24, 2006)

*Work for free????*

I don't have one driveway for $20.00. I wouldn't even start my truck for that. This is the whole problem, lowballers that haven't got a clue as to what the f---k they should be charging. You have to do your homework on what your overhead costs are and charge accordingly. I have a guy near me that charges $15.00 per driveway.
He drives a sh-tbox truck with a plow that is as old as I am, some weekend warrior that calls himself a plow guy.
I have an account that is approx. 450ft long straight up the whole way with a couple of bends and a two car garage and 3 car parking area at the top. The customer can't get up the driveway if there is more than an inch and half of snow on it. I plow it several times per storm depending on when they are coming and going. I charge them $80.00 per push.
They are so happy bcuz their last plow guy got stuck every storm, ripped up the yard, never timed things right so the customer had to get towed out of their own driveway twice. He charged them $45.00 per push, you get what you pay for.
Do you think they mind paying my prices? Not at all!!payup


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## rjfetz1 (Dec 2, 2006)

Michael M;513890 said:


> I don't have one driveway for $20.00. I wouldn't even start my truck for that. This is the whole problem, lowballers that haven't got a clue as to what the f---k they should be charging. You have to do your homework on what your overhead costs are and charge accordingly. I have a guy near me that charges $15.00 per driveway.
> He drives a sh-tbox truck with a plow that is as old as I am, some weekend warrior that calls himself a plow guy.
> I have an account that is approx. 450ft long straight up the whole way with a couple of bends and a two car garage and 3 car parking area at the top. The customer can't get up the driveway if there is more than an inch and half of snow on it. I plow it several times per storm depending on when they are coming and going. I charge them $80.00 per push.
> They are so happy bcuz their last plow guy got stuck every storm, ripped up the yard, never timed things right so the customer had to get towed out of their own driveway twice. He charged them $45.00 per push, you get what you pay for.
> Do you think they mind paying my prices? Not at all!!payup


I don't have a $20.00 driveway either ........... I just like to hear about the guys who don't claim they make $80.00 for a typical driveway, or your nuts, or you don't have a clue. Well I do have a clue - I have been plowing for 19 years and do consider myself a plowguy. Thats great you have a driveway for $80.00 what about the rest? Most all of my driveways are summer accounts also so they take care of me and I take care of them. Sure if someone called me right now for a price I might say $45 - 65.. but if I have a chance of a seasonal deal it would be $35.00 - 50.00 Right or wrong, plowguy or weekend warrior, clue or no clue I like my client list and don't want to change it. All I have is paid for.........


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

rjfetz1;513876 said:


> Do you use this equipment in the spring/summer/fall?? If so then I guess the repair costs should be covered from work other than snow too - right?


yes the equiptment does get used in the other months too, but it's the same way with roofing, a $25 roof repair will not pay for these kind of expenses either.....i still think $45 is in line......it sounds like a lot but if you figure one catagory of my expense, ie insurance. health, work comp, gen liability, vehical,fire policy on shop, life,AFLAC.....that's $40k per year....how could $45 for a "service call" be out of line???? at $25 per "service call" that's 1600 "service calls" just to pay for insurance.......and there still is equiptment cost/replacement, wages (big one), shop/yard cost, and profit to live on....... i would have to do almost 8 or 9 thousand "service calls" per year at $25 just to break even.


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## Avitare (Sep 22, 2007)

Did 25 drives today in 9hrs because of some unusual travel that totalled 100miles.
Used 15 gal of fuel for $45. 
So, my cost per mile is way over the $.45 allowance because that just covers fuel.
Keep track of all expenses and you can deduct above the allowance.

At the end of the year, I have a pretty good idea what my repairs/service costs,
operating costs, subs/helpers, fuel and replacement equipment -- all part of doing
business. Then I can look at how much service we did and --there is how to figure
what it is worth to you.

If you only look at the moment, you forget the wear and tear. Its easy to think your are
making a killing when you havent added in all the costs and depreciation.

Grandpa said my time is worth nothing if I am not doing anything. So, sometimes
a little $$ is better than nothing.

There is always someone out there will to work for less. But do they get out of the truck?
Do they do all the special things you do ? (Sunday, we brought the newspaper from the 
mailbox to 4 elderly people that really didnt want to go out in 4deg temps. Today, I handed mail to 2 ladies that were very grateful to not have to go out.
Something sets you apart from the guy that is 'cheaper'. Is it your phone call asking 
when they need to get out -- or do they mind if you are a little later than normal today ??

The value of your service is what you make it.
You are only worth what you can be replaced for. Do average work and an average guy
can fill your shoes.

tc, KC and Jetta


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## rjfetz1 (Dec 2, 2006)

Avitare;514326 said:


> Did 25 drives today in 9hrs because of some unusual travel that totalled 100miles.
> Used 15 gal of fuel for $45.
> So, my cost per mile is way over the $.45 allowance because that just covers fuel.
> Keep track of all expenses and you can deduct above the allowance.
> ...


Well put.......


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

Who cares what the guy charges. Dang atleast hes no low baller. Man you gripe if they plow for foood or if they plow for gold. Sounds like your business skills stink if he can get his price and you get a turd of it. I live in a low income area and i get aroun the same if not more in some cases compared to higher income areas. Us poor people tend to pay for good job done even though wes not been to school.


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## mayhem (Aug 25, 2006)

[puts on aesbestos suit]

May I present you with the $30 driveway. Its about 350' or so in overall length, gentle uphil grade all the way to the 3 car parking area at the top...2 car parking/turnaround just in front of the house. For a sense of scale, the house is 28x40 and the driveway is dirt/gravel top to bottom...some trees overshadow it, but its a consistent width of about 10-11 feet all the way up to the top. If I understand some of you guys this is upwards of a $75-100 per pass driveway, which is a typical New England season of about 100-120 inches is going to run the owner somewhere around $4000-5000.

This is my house in western MA, my plow guy was getting $25 per pass and upped his prices to $30 per pass ($5 more per sanding) the same year I got a free plow truck (this is my third season DIY...the free truck got me hooked so I bought a nicer one when it died). He runs a fully insured, professional business. His guys did a good job...but I just couldn't swing the cost...a typical season was running me upwards of $1000 at $25 per pass. We get at least one week a year when we get a couple of 10"+ storms back to back...each one is a 3 pass minuimum, more likely 4, so we're looking at $150 minimum...or according to some of you guys out there an $800 maximum. For comparisn sake my brother in law was chanrging me $25 per pass to do my old house's driveway two towns west of here...that driveway was about 20x60 and would be a typical driveway in a residential neightborhood.

I agree with others here...know your costs before you give people a price. Conversely though you can only charge what the market will bear (and if a typicla driveway is 20x20 then the market probably won't bear very much). Maybe his costs are genuinely lower than yours because he very likely is NOT driving around in a leather lined, turbo deisel, 4 door, $45,000 pickup truck with multizone climate control, heated autodimming outside mirrors a few DVD players in it for the kids...he probably doesn't get a new truck, plow and sander every 2 years and his customers are not bearing those costs. Now to be fair, maybe he's a lowballer trying to scrape by and make some beer money without carrying insurance...I honestly don't know.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but an issue I have with alot of you guys is you are in areas where the economy may be much stronger and your market will bear the higher prices than it will in Kalamazoo. There have been several people here from MI who all said basically the same thing as FeelLikeANumber, yet you still insist that he's wrong. I say put your plow where your keyboard is and go try to make a living in Kalamazoo...see how long you refuse to start your trucks for $20. You're providing a service to the market...the market will dictate what you can earn.



> in my mind a "typical driveway" is approx the width of 2 cars and about 20 ft. in length.


Are you sure about that? I don't think I've ever seen a driveway that small. You literally mean a driveway that is one carlength, right? Like so short its a square not a rectangle? Seems like a waste for the homeowner to have it plowed...just park your cars there before the storm and its already cleared off.


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## martyman (Nov 11, 2000)

Depends on the driveway...I can charge from $20 up to $80 depending on how long it will take me.


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## MassSteelerfan (Aug 9, 2007)

I can understand the customers not understanding the costs to run a business but to have people that are actually doing this for a living not knowing the cost baffles me!! It's not about getting an hourly rate, it's about taking into cosideration the whole picture. Gas, insurance, payroll etc. and when I say payroll I also mean yourself, even if you are a one man show. After you add all of the expenses up you are basically plowing to stay busy, you are not making money. This will all come to a fast reality once one of the guys has a fat lawsuit on there hands. For the guys out there doing this correctly, don't ever feel threatened by these lowballers, they will all one day or another, come to the realization that they are the fool.:crying:


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

MassSteelerfan;515096 said:


> I can understand the customers not understanding the costs to run a business but to have people that are actually doing this for a living not knowing the cost baffles me!! It's not about getting an hourly rate, it's about taking into cosideration the whole picture. Gas, insurance, payroll etc. and when I say payroll I also mean yourself, even if you are a one man show. After you add all of the expenses up you are basically plowing to stay busy, you are not making money. This will all come to a fast reality once one of the guys has a fat lawsuit on there hands. For the guys out there doing this correctly, don't ever feel threatened by these lowballers, they will all one day or another, come to the realization that they are the fool.:crying:


AMEN, glad someone else is with me on this one.....still can't believe that the original poster is doing drives for $15 (1/3 of $45)....


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## daveintoledo (Oct 5, 2005)

*detroit mich area and toledo area*

the most economicly depressed area in the country.... GM let 34 thousand go today, last week it was chrysler, the week before it was someone else.....next week it will be someone else...

unless your phisically disabled, residential snow plowing and lawn care are luxuries... and many people who have always been able to afford these luxuries now can not.....we dont get that much snow here anyways, so we go into this as a service provided to our lawn and landscape customers, and pick up a few more as we go along.. we make way more in the warmer seasons.....

i get 25 to 40 depending on the depth of snow and size, and i am on the high end of the pricing in this area....i have flyers from other people all over town advertising 10 for a drive way, they are not insured ( i am ) and no one cares.....

i swear to god i counted 37 plow trucks out today.... in a small rural section of the toledo suburbs.....

im very glad your area is doing well but it just isnt like that in this part of the country .... thank god there will be some changes soon in washington


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

If that is the going rate for the area...


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## riverwalkland (Dec 26, 2007)

One think I think a lot of people are forgetting about is the market each of us is operating in. I don't know CT so I can't say, but there are very wealthy areas there. Someone in NH, VT, MI etc might be operating out of an area with 100k houses, not 1 million dollar houses. This changes the average/fair/whatever you want to call it price. I live on a 1300 ft driveway, 10 feet wide, which leads up to a loop where 4-5 cars can park and the guy who plowed us till I started 3 years ago charged 35$. Where I live the typical 2 car wide, 40ish foot long subdivision driveway is 15-30$. 99% of people would NEVER pay 45-50$ to get that drive plowed. I know people who own or work at companies from 1 person to the two biggest companies in the state. This is the typical price, no matter what truck, a jeep with a plow or an 50K truck with tv's in the headrests. Now, the farther south you go, the less plow companies exist (simply because there is less snow). Also population increases, so wealth does. This creates a different market. There is simply no way someone could say there is a standard price everywhere. Someone who upon testing his plows effect on gas mileage decides to drive to florida, and happens to go when a freak snow storm leaves a foot of snow, could charge 200$ adriveway because he'd be the only guy in the state with a snow plow. As long as we are happy doing what we do, we see margins, and the customer is happy with our service, no one is an 'idiot'. Idiot's are the people forcast the weather... (just kidding... sort of)


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## nick858 (Jul 17, 2006)

I wish I could join in with everyone else, but I have to side with the original poster here. We get 15-25 for residential drives. If we charge any more than 20 on most of them, one of the other 10 plow guys in town will do it for less. Charge what the market will bear, and every market is different. In our town of 3000 people, the average HOUSEHOLD income is 43k. Those people are not going to pay 80 bucks to have their drive cleared. I can go out and make about 80/hr, and thats a little higher than the hourly guys around here charge. Most are around 65/ hr. I wouldnt even get started on lawncare, people just have to remember the difference in locations. A very high priced house in our town would sell for 175-200k, thats average or below in much of the country. Just a point of comparison. I would have no trouble getting our route done if I charged 80 bucks a drive, mine would be the only place I plowed.


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## Capital Land (Feb 10, 2008)

price all depends on your investment. if you drive an 85 blazer you picked up for 1200 bucks with a plow , you are more apt to be able to afford to plow for 15 a drive way. when you are paying for a fleet of 40,000 dollar trucks with workers comp and liability. you might as well bend over if you are only charging 15 or 20 per drive. I will never plow resi again, when this year is over. i am only comm.. i do 10% res and 90 % comm. from a 50 50 schedual last year .and i tell you i wait for my money , but i am alot more happy when i get a 6,000 dollar check rather than a 45 dollar check PS. i have never had a commercial contract call me 15 times a night. But crazy home owners who have no life do.


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## Michael M (Nov 24, 2006)

rjfetz1;513931 said:


> I don't have a $20.00 driveway either ........... I just like to hear about the guys who don't claim they make $80.00 for a typical driveway, or your nuts, or you don't have a clue. Well I do have a clue - I have been plowing for 19 years and do consider myself a plowguy. Thats great you have a driveway for $80.00 what about the rest? Most all of my driveways are summer accounts also so they take care of me and I take care of them. Sure if someone called me right now for a price I might say $45 - 65.. but if I have a chance of a seasonal deal it would be $35.00 - 50.00 Right or wrong, plowguy or weekend warrior, clue or no clue I like my client list and don't want to change it. All I have is paid for.........


To respond to your question, most of my other driveways are between $30-$50.
They are the "typical" 50-100ft, 8-10ft wide, two car parking at the top. Some are larger so they are at the higher end of that price bracket. Also, I take into account what time these people want me there. if they leave for work extremely early, the price is higher. If you read the snowplowing manual that I bought off this sight it explains priority one customers and that you must charge for that. The $80.00 driveway that has caused such an outrage to some on this site, the homeowner goes to work extremely early. This driveway must be done by 4am, no questions asked. You better believe the market will bear this price. I had two other plow guys tell me the other day that they wouldn't even take on the account for less than $120 per push because it was too steep and too much work to stay up on the ice management. My ice management prices are separate, they will pay either way. If they don't pay me, then they will pay a wrecker to come pull them out and even risk serious injury in the process. Customer service is number one. They are happy and thats all that matters to me.. I got two refferals from them yesterday.

I feel that all of us here understand that the market is different per region. I am by no means am telling anybody what they should charge. What the hell do I know about the plow rates in Iowa? I know what my costs to do business are and what my time is worth. All I'm saying is that guys that are doing this job as a hobby, make it difficult for guys that do this job as part of their living.


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

Interesting post and maybe kinda late to add. I am NW Iowa. I am running 4 plow trucks, 2 utilitity tractors with front mount blowers and 2 skids. Now rate wise - I am the highest. I demand it and I am not going out in the cold, running equipment, guys working for nothing. But there are alot of farmers in my area with a JD tractor and loader who can also push snow. There charging $40 - $60 / hour. I, along with two other crews are running around $100 hour. All res. driveways are done with our NH Boomers - city ordiance has sidealks done in 24 hours so therefore the blower/tractor comdo works well for me. Min. charge / drive - $25. One thing we do is get out at every job site no matter what and shovel doors, entrances, walks. I even do just sidewalks where the others don't want to get out a loader. Now there are two idiots in my town that use a walk behind blower and most often than not - there 2 helpers are hand schoveling. They are charging $10.00 an hour. Yep - $10/ hour! And yes I have lost accounts to these jokers cuz it looks like home owner is getting a better deal - which they really aren't but. Now he go about 60 miles from me and the rates jump 20 - 40%. So your area has alot to do with what the going rate is. But like I told one customer who was complaining about my rates - I am in and out and your always done on time. He told me gee - 10 minutes and $30 and said yes. I ask him if he would hire a roofer by the hire? He said yup - how about when that roofer shows up with a hammer and coffee can of nails??


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## Lubold8431 (Sep 11, 2006)

In my area, if I charged $45 minimum, my truck would be parked and I would have no work. If you guys can get away with charging that much for a residential driveway (double wide, two car lengths long), good for you. My minimum is $25 for a straight push, no shoveling, and at even that price I have people balking. In this area, there is alot of competition. Lots of guys driving around with plows on their trucks who would be more than happy to plow ten or twenty driveways for $15-20 a pop. My truck is not brand new, and neither is my plow, but they both are in good shape and still operational and making me money.


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## DFLS (Dec 24, 2007)

My biggest drive for $120: (the smaller one in the photo, I did the big one once for $210)









Smallest (in yellow, about 25' long 18' wide) for $30:


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

Capital Land;517096 said:


> price all depends on your investment. if you drive an 85 blazer you picked up for 1200 bucks with a plow , you are more apt to be able to afford to plow for 15 a drive way. when you are paying for a fleet of 40,000 dollar trucks with workers comp and liability. you might as well bend over if you are only charging 15 or 20 per drive.


Price has nothing to do with your investment, other than it dictates your minimum. Its not the customer's fault you bought a fleet of $40000 trucks instead of $4000 trucks that do the same job. As long as the truck and contractor has all the right insurance/comp and does the same quality job, he can charge the same amount as you if he wants to.


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## AbsoluteH&L (Jan 5, 2006)

derekbroerse;519128 said:


> Price has nothing to do with your investment, other than it dictates your minimum. Its not the customer's fault you bought a fleet of $40000 trucks instead of $4000 trucks that do the same job. As long as the truck and contractor has all the right insurance/comp and does the same quality job, he can charge the same amount as you if he wants to.


Well said! I run stuff that is new enough to look good and be reliable, but not break the bank.
And yes pricing is definitely regional. I wish I could get that for a drive. Most 2x2 drives are $18 around here.


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## LHK2 (Jan 22, 2007)

It's not the customers fault that one has to go out and buy a 45,000 plow truck that will last maybe 4 years. That's 15,00 grand a year for a truck, that's alot of money that has to be made to cover the expense, but hey, it a cool truck though, right. I can guarantee that 75% of everyone on this site goes off the rate of someone else because they don't know what to charge as an hourly rate, they DON'T KNOW THEIR BUSINESS. They will be the ones that fail. I have been in business 20 years, I have seen it to many times.


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## abbert55 (Jan 13, 2006)

LHK2;519211 said:


> It's not the customers fault that one has to go out and buy a 45,000 plow truck that will last maybe 4 years. That's 15,00 grand a year for a truck, that's alot of money that has to be made to cover the expense, but hey, it a cool truck though, right. I can guarantee that 75% of everyone on this site goes off the rate of someone else because they don't know what to charge as an hourly rate, they DON'T KNOW THEIR BUSINESS. They will be the ones that fail. I have been in business 20 years, I have seen it to many times.


I have yet to pay $45,000 for a plow truck that only lasts 4 years? My last plow was a 1975 Meyer ST 7.5 that came off of a 1975 Dodge Snofighter. I had to retire the truck 3 years ago because there wasn't enough body and frame left to fix. I bought a used 1996 GMC 2500HD and installed the plow on it. I paid $6250.00 for the 96 with a Meyer mini spreader on it. This truck will last me for at least another 3+ years1 month ago I bought a new 860 Speed Wing. I do several commercial lots and several residentials. My equipment isn't new but looks good in public and my customers know they aren't paying for someones EXPENSIVE toys. I've been plowing for 33 years now and I still only charge what my local market will bear... NOT what everyone else on PS is getting.


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## Capital Land (Feb 10, 2008)

*nice equipment*



derekbroerse;519128 said:


> Price has nothing to do with your investment, other than it dictates your minimum. Its not the customer's fault you bought a fleet of $40000 trucks instead of $4000 trucks that do the same job. As long as the truck and contractor has all the right insurance/comp and does the same quality job, he can charge the same amount as you if he wants to.[/QUOTI
> 
> I supose you could be right. but my customers are not back roads country bumpkins. if i pulled up to their house or place of buiz running a ragged truck they would laugh at me and tell me no thanks and prob charge for the oil your 78 prob leaks on their lot.thanks for the tip but i am prob half your age doing 3 times the quantity .


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## powerjoke (Nov 13, 2004)

Jay brown;512401 said:


> i would say that he is in line,


me and jay are somewhat in the same geographical area and $45 sounds fine to me


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## AbsoluteH&L (Jan 5, 2006)

Capital Land
I supose you could be right. but my customers are not back roads country bumpkins. if i pulled up to their house or place of buiz running a ragged truck they would laugh at me and tell me no thanks and prob charge for the oil your 78 prob leaks on their lot.thanks for the tip but i am prob half your age doing 3 times the quantity .[/QUOTE said:


> Wow!, your out to make friends. Most of the guys on here that BRAG about there top dollar truck only have one,not a fleet. Sorry looking PRETTY isn't important to most of us, making money is.


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

Capital Land;519595 said:


> derekbroerse;519128 said:
> 
> 
> > Price has nothing to do with your investment, other than it dictates your minimum. Its not the customer's fault you bought a fleet of $40000 trucks instead of $4000 trucks that do the same job. As long as the truck and contractor has all the right insurance/comp and does the same quality job, he can charge the same amount as you if he wants to.[/QUOTI
> ...


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

AbsoluteH&L;520059 said:


> Wow!, your out to make friends. Most of the guys on here that BRAG about there top dollar truck only have one,not a fleet. Sorry looking PRETTY isn't important to most of us, making money is.


That assumes you actually believe him, funny, he talks like a teenager and he probably doesn't have anything. If he does, its probably because daddy bought it for him. But anybody can SAY they have stuff like that, usually the people who brag the most have the least. And I'm sure his '90 Ford is worth $40k.... theres not a truck in his list thats worth $40k. I seriously doubt he owns the loader, too.

Anybody who hires based on appearance rather than performance and reputation is a fool. This ain't Hooters!


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## ducatirider944 (Feb 25, 2008)

LHK2;519211 said:


> It's not the customers fault that one has to go out and buy a 45,000 plow truck that will last maybe 4 years. That's 15,00 grand a year for a truck, that's alot of money that has to be made to cover the expense, but hey, it a cool truck though, right. I can guarantee that 75% of everyone on this site goes off the rate of someone else because they don't know what to charge as an hourly rate, they DON'T KNOW THEIR BUSINESS. They will be the ones that fail. I have been in business 20 years, I have seen it to many times.





derekbroerse said:


> Price has nothing to do with your investment, other than it dictates your minimum. Its not the customer's fault you bought a fleet of $40000 trucks instead of $4000 trucks that do the same job. As long as the truck and contractor has all the right insurance/comp and does the same quality job, he can charge the same amount as you if he wants to.


I'm new here but reading this thread it sounds like I'm an egotistical ***** for owning a $50k truck and I must think I'm better than all the guys that drive older trucks. I don't think this is the case and will state reasons why. First I agree with charging what the fair market price is. If you are in an area that the going rate for a standard drive goes for $25 than that is about what you should be charging. Maybe you provide better service or quality let's say you charge $30, seams fair. You charge $50 because you find the people that don't know the going rate, I say you found your niche as long as you can sleep at night, so be it, eventually this will probably come back to bite you in the a** someday.

As far as all the bickering going on about guys with new trucks I shall through in my $.02. My last truck stickered for right at $50K, I bought it for about $44K. I have ran it for 4 years and put 125K miles on it. I have had no out of pocket expenses other than fluid changes, filters, tires, and an EGR valve that set me back $350. I will get a new truck this summer and it will set me back about $20K to replace the one I have now. So that is a cost of about $5K a year to have a new truck with heated leather seats, those defrosting mirrors and window, that cd/ dvd changer and all that crap that nobody needs. Now, I run a legitimate business so it is tax deductible, which by the time you figure state, federal, and self-employment taxes cuts that in half down to $2500 per year. You are claiming this money that you make from plowing on your income tax return, right? The guys that are plowing for "beer money" none of this matters because they probably are not paying insurance or taxes on the income, and $5K buys a-lot-o-beer! So for the legitimate guys, how much are you spending to keep that older truck running? I owned older trucks back when I started my business and they nickel and dimed me. It was a pair of lock outs here, transfer case there, brake calipers next. I actually lowered my yearly bills by buying a new truck. I know you can write off those repairs as well but $2000 is still costing you $1000 profit. How about down time? What about that big snow storm where you were screwing with your truck and I was out plowing? $500, $750 in lost profit? How about how much longer you can plow because you're comfortable, warm, don't have to listen to crap squeaking driving you nuts? Even if it costs me $1000 per year to have a new truck, to me it is worth it. If you can make an older truck work, go for it. Don't bash on the guys that choose to have new equipment. Oh and I have been in business for 14 years so I should be having a going out of business sale soon becuase of that fancy truck!


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

how exactly did this get from pricing driveways to a bashfest about what kind of truck you drive? Sure, a newer truck equals more expenses, but at the same time if you got a plow truck for $100 from a little old lady's whose husband died you wouldn't base your rates on the fact that you got a $100 plow truck! You need to know your minimums to break even and absolutely never,ever ever go below that. Knowing your minimum you charge as much as the market will bear. Raise your prices and people will stay with you if you're upfront and honest about it. It's the guys who are too chicken to raise their prices because they think they're going to loose half their business that are killing this (and other) industries. 

Lets say you do 20 driveways @ $25/piece now. You're billing $500. That takes you ~5hrs to do. You're "making" $100/hr. Now. if you bump it up to $30/piece and 10% of your clients drop you (that'd be 2 people). You're billing $540 for the storm, but its only taking you 4.5hrs now. Look at that... you're up to "making" $120/hr now and you're home shagging the wife a half hour earlier. Everyone wins.

I'm all for using older equipment but new equipment definitely has its place too. My production vehicle is a 1994 Toyota Pickup, just rolled 153K miles in the last storm. My backup is a 2005 F350 PSD. I could be a lot more comfortable driving the ford and look better too, but I drive the clunker because its a faster vehicle to get in and out of the driveways with and 3x more agile than the ford. All that boils down to more $/hr and happier customers. I would run a brand new compact truck too, but so far the ole' yota hasn't let me down yet.


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## AbsoluteH&L (Jan 5, 2006)

BSDeality;527167 said:


> ...
> Lets say you do 20 driveways @ $25/piece now. You're billing $500. That takes you ~5hrs to do. You're "making" $100/hr. Now. if you bump it up to $30/piece and 10% of your clients drop you (that'd be 2 people). You're billing $540 for the storm, but its only taking you 4.5hrs now. Look at that... you're up to "making" $120/hr now and you're home shagging the wife a half hour earlier. *Everyone wins*.
> 
> I'm all for using older equipment but new equipment definitely has its place too. My production vehicle is a 1994 Toyota Pickup, just rolled 153K miles in the last storm. My backup is a 2005 F350 PSD. I could be a lot more comfortable driving the ford and look better too, but I drive the clunker because its a faster vehicle to get in and out of the driveways with and 3x more agile than the ford. All that boils down to more $/hr and happier customers. I would run a brand new compact truck too, but so far the ole' yota hasn't let me down yet.


Except for your wifes boyfriend that just lost half an hour of "quality time"  LOL


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

ducatirider944;527026 said:


> I'm new here but reading this thread it sounds like I'm an egotistical ***** for owning a $50k truck and I must think I'm better than all the guys that drive older trucks. I don't think this is the case and will state reasons why. First I agree with charging what the fair market price is. If you are in an area that the going rate for a standard drive goes for $25 than that is about what you should be charging. Maybe you provide better service or quality let's say you charge $30, seams fair. You charge $50 because you find the people that don't know the going rate, I say you found your niche as long as you can sleep at night, so be it, eventually this will probably come back to bite you in the a** someday.
> 
> As far as all the bickering going on about guys with new trucks I shall through in my $.02. My last truck stickered for right at $50K, I bought it for about $44K. I have ran it for 4 years and put 125K miles on it. I have had no out of pocket expenses other than fluid changes, filters, tires, and an EGR valve that set me back $350. I will get a new truck this summer and it will set me back about $20K to replace the one I have now. So that is a cost of about $5K a year to have a new truck with heated leather seats, those defrosting mirrors and window, that cd/ dvd changer and all that crap that nobody needs. Now, I run a legitimate business so it is tax deductible, which by the time you figure state, federal, and self-employment taxes cuts that in half down to $2500 per year. You are claiming this money that you make from plowing on your income tax return, right? The guys that are plowing for "beer money" none of this matters because they probably are not paying insurance or taxes on the income, and $5K buys a-lot-o-beer! So for the legitimate guys, how much are you spending to keep that older truck running? I owned older trucks back when I started my business and they nickel and dimed me. It was a pair of lock outs here, transfer case there, brake calipers next. I actually lowered my yearly bills by buying a new truck. I know you can write off those repairs as well but $2000 is still costing you $1000 profit. How about down time? What about that big snow storm where you were screwing with your truck and I was out plowing? $500, $750 in lost profit? How about how much longer you can plow because you're comfortable, warm, don't have to listen to crap squeaking driving you nuts? Even if it costs me $1000 per year to have a new truck, to me it is worth it. If you can make an older truck work, go for it. Don't bash on the guys that choose to have new equipment. Oh and I have been in business for 14 years so I should be having a going out of business sale soon becuase of that fancy truck!


If you READ my posting, it was disagreeing with him that you base your price on how expensive your equipment is, which is a load of crap. I can and do charge just as much as the guys with the brand new trucks. THEN if you continue reading I take a hit from him about having a rusty oil leaker, and it all snowballs from there.

Yes, I declare my income. So this is plenty valid for me. But thanks for suggesting otherwise.

Also sounds like you got off pretty lucky with the new truck--how many people on here are posting about blown $2500 trannies not under warrenty, ball joints and u joints worn out at 30000 miles? All classified as abuse from the driver snowplowing and warrenty denied. Those are problems we never had on the older trucks because plain and simple they are built a lot heavier than todays, and thats a fact. Everything is cast iron and steel, not aluminum and plastic.

So that is why I run older trucks. Beef. Solid axles and leaf springs. This is what works for me, if it doesn't work for you, hey, whatever, I don't really care how you run your business. This is how I run mine.

As for my repairs this year... I put two new batteries in the '78, not because the others were soooo bad but they weren't new anymore and weren't matched, so to prevent problems I bought two new ones. I also upgraded to a higher output alternator at a cost of $120. Oh I also broke a Milemarker PREMIUM hub somehow... bought a pair of Warn's for a quick replacement around $250. No repairs on the '82 this year, other than painting it at the beginning of the season... which I did at home for the cost of materials. I try not to contribute to the modern "throw away" society, I get my money's worth out of what I buy, and then some.

Downtime? Whats that? I have had ZERO downtime this season, everything keeps right on kickin' and even with the failure of the hub I finished out in 2wd by shifting my ballast rearwards a few feet... 8" of snow. Haven't even needed a backup yet.

So hack away, if you want, but my repairs don't even total one month of payment on a new truck. And I can write my parts off just as easily.

I drive my nice cars (and bike) in the summer. I can do without the goodies for the winter. Give me something strong, reliable, safe, and warm for the winter, I don't need anything more than that.

Have a nice day.

And to think this all started with someone innocently asking if this price was fair in his area...


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

ducatirider944;527026 said:


> I'm new here but reading this thread it sounds like I'm an egotistical ***** for owning a $50k truck and I must think I'm better than all the guys that drive older trucks.


No one said you, but if you read his posting above its very directly saying he's got a better business than I do. And he doesn't, no matter what he drives. Even if he makes more money than me, I'd be willing to be my percentage of profit is considerably higher than his.

Maybe he should take his 'chipped' (chiped? LOL) trucks to the bodyshop and paint'em before they rust away..? 

Anyways, back to your regularly scheduled broadcast...


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## ducatirider944 (Feb 25, 2008)

ducatirider944;527026 said:


> You are claiming this money that you make from plowing on your income tax return, right? The guys that are plowing for "beer money" none of this matters because they probably are not paying insurance or taxes on the income, and $5K buys a-lot-o-beer! So for the legitimate guys, how much are you spending to keep that older truck running? I owned older trucks back when I started my business and they nickel and dimed me. It was a pair of lock outs here, transfer case there, brake calipers next. I actually lowered my yearly bills by buying a new truck. I know you can write off those repairs as well but $2000 is still costing you $1000 profit. How about down time? What about that big snow storm where you were screwing with your truck and I was out plowing? $500, $750 in lost profit? How about how much longer you can plow because you're comfortable, warm, don't have to listen to crap squeaking driving you nuts? Even if it costs me $1000 per year to have a new truck, to me it is worth it. *If you can make an older truck work, go for it.*


Note: I said if you are running a legitimate business that repairs still have the tax benifit. 
I never said you were not running one but trying to point out how I can justify running new equipment. Also, I never bashed anyone for having older equipment. I have an older El camino that has been totally restored that I would put up against anything rolling off a show room floor 1/4 mile or closed curcuit racetrack that cost under $75K. I also know how much time I have to put into maintaining this vehicle.


derekbroerse;527408 said:


> .
> 
> Yes, I declare my income. So this is plenty valid for me. But thanks for suggesting otherwise.
> 
> ...


Your transfer case and transmission are not made out of aluminum? As far as axles I have a DANA 60 front and a DANA 80 rear with leaf springs in my F-350. Most GM trucks rolling out of the factory in late 70's early 80' had a DANA 44 front and a GM 12 bolt rear. I'm pretty sure the DANA's are beefier! I also pull 20K on a regular basis and I would even want to try that with a 454 or 460 and we won't even go into the diesel motors offered before 93'.

I never tried to tell anyone how to run their business but was giving reason why I ran mine the way I did. There isn't a right or wrong way as long as you go home with what you feel comfortable making. I don't even fall into the you have to have a new truck to look professional an old restored truck looks just as nice as a new one in my book.

Sorry for hijacking this thread. I will get off my :soapbox now


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

ducatirider944;528677 said:


> Your transfer case and transmission are not made out of aluminum? As far as axles I have a DANA 60 front and a DANA 80 rear with leaf springs in my F-350. Most GM trucks rolling out of the factory in late 70's early 80' had a DANA 44 front and a GM 12 bolt rear. I'm pretty sure the DANA's are beefier! I also pull 20K on a regular basis and I would even want to try that with a 454 or 460 and we won't even go into the diesel motors offered before 93'.


Nope, tranny and transfer case are both cast iron. Your description here is comparing a one-ton Ford to a Chevy half-ton. Not even close to a fair comparison, now is it? Mine is also a one-ton. ie: Dana 60 front (I've heard the newer Ford/Dodge ones are watered down some, not as strong, but have no experience with them... also there are Dana 50's out there in those Ford SD trucks as well). My rear ends are GM Corporate 14 Bolts, ie: 10.5" ring gear, Full Floater. The Dana 70/80's are ever so slightly bigger, never heard of any of those three axles being a problem for breaking. Front leafs on a Ford, you are correct, they are still the old technology and probably one of the smartest moves Ford has made in years--keeping a work truck and not pretending its a Lincoln.

As for the towing, I've pulled over 24k with my 383 stroker motor, ie: a stroked 350. While it was no freight train it certainly had no problem getting the job done. I can only think a 454 or 460 would have even less trouble... so will my 383 now that I got around to adding the Vortec heads I always wanted to and reprogramming the ECM. There's always room for improvement, no matter what it is. As for the old non-turbo diesels, they were gutless but they give great fuel mileage that even the new stuff can't touch and just run and run forever(or just blow, but those ones are already recycled now).

Now seriously, this is stupid, why can I not have a diffent point of view about something without someone taking pot-shots at my truck?

Here we have this kid who thinks price should be based on what YOU paid for your gear, which is BS and I told him I disagreed because I perform the same service with much lower investment and charge the same amount. He responds with comments about rust and oil leaks on customer property and suggests I only work for hillbillies. I shouldn't respond to that?

On the other board, which I KNOW you were reading too, it was a discussion as to how long you should keep your gear, and I disagreed with the guys who feel they 'need' new stuff every three years and I stated why. Hence, a discussion, but it always goes to hell when someone has to open their mouth and say something stupid, like Brendan saying he obviously does a much higher level of service than I do, simply because he has a newer truck? Thats ridiculous, and you don't think I should respond to that?

It never was a bashing session until these guys start it. I haven't got a problem with them having new trucks, I have a problem with them telling me they are better than me BECAUSE they have new trucks. If you read the threads, and didn't just skip over it, then you know this to be true.

Personally, I think a nicely restored and nicely kept older truck makes you *STAND OUT *from the competition, and in itself is great advertising and a great conversation starter. You don't have to share that opinion, but I think since you've got that El Camino then you know exactly what I'm talking about.


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## ducatirider944 (Feb 25, 2008)

derekbroerse;528971 said:


> Now seriously, this is stupid, why can I not have a diffent point of view about something without someone taking pot-shots at my truck?
> 
> Here we have this kid who thinks price should be based on what YOU paid for your gear, which is BS and I told him I disagreed because I perform the same service with much lower investment and charge the same amount. He responds with comments about rust and oil leaks on customer property and suggests I only work for hillbillies. I shouldn't respond to that?
> 
> ...


Feel free to have your opinion just like I should be free to have mine. This is America and you probably have the same rights in Canada. I will ask the wife tomorrow she is from Toronto. Give it a few years and that right might be taken away from both of us by politicians.

I never took pot shots at your truck. I was going with what I know and a guy that plows with me has a late 70's 3/4 ton that has a Dana 44 front and a 12 bolt rear but those trucks 1/2, 3/4, 1 ton were all pretty exchangeable from any of the three so it might not be what came out of the factory. The 3/4 and 1 ton Chevy's I don't know that much about, any thing else GM rolled out the door I am vey familiar with. Like the 383 is a stroked 350 with a turned down 400 crank to fit the smaller journals from the 350 block. The GM small block is probably the best motor that has ever been built, very interchangeable. Other than the 307 which was a P.O.S. I would take a small block over a big block any day in a classic car. My El Camino has a full roller 355 that puts out 425 hp and 410 ft lbs of torque. You have to be spinning it over 4300 rpm to get the torque and over 5700 rpm for the horsepower. Could you throw it in a heavy truck and pull 20K? Probably if it was geared right and wanted to get 2 mpg. I have close to that at idle and over 570 ft lbs at 2000 rpm. I've owned a 460 and a V-10 and they pull nothing like a diesel! Just my $.02 and the experiences I have had. If your happy with your truck, great. You will like the Vortex heads.

I agree with you on your rates shouldn't be figured on what your equipment cost you. They should be figured on what the going rate in your area is and the quality of service you provide. Respond away on the hillbilly comment. I didn't say that. I like how people, and this isn't directed towards anyone, can type away on a keyboard but wouldn't say the same thing to someone's face. I damn well guarantee if I type something I would be willing to say the same thing if I was sitting right across from you.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FeellikeaNumber, I haven't read through all the posts, but don't let what these guys are saying bother you. They are not in our market, so they have no clue what the market will bare. If this guy can get it, great, but he won't have much business at that rate. It just isn't going to happen around here.

While it would great to get that kind of money and what the guys out east are getting for a driveway, you and I both know that if you tried it, you're going to going hungry and another house will be foreclosed on. Last year there was a lengthy discussion on just this issue and one of the companies highlighted in one of the trade rags and how they had to be lowballers. Despite showing some of these mental midgets how it could work using this company's numbers, they insisted it couldn't be done.

Just look at Paul Vanderzon, he's doing 2700 driveways for not about the same amount of money we do around here per push--he gets more snow so the overall charge is higher--and he's making it work, just look at his fleet of tractors. These guys will tell him he can't do it, yet he is. If I've said it once here at PS, I've said it million times, don't let anyone who is not in your market tell you what you should be charging per hour, per push, per season. You can ask how long something will take because we are selling our time, not square footage, not acreage, not parking spaces, we are selling time because we only have a limited amount of time to perform our service.

Here's the link to that thread:

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=41959

Same basic principle as this thread, just some of these guys just don't get it.

PS And if quadplower has replied in this thread he should be very proud of the fact that I have gotten far enough in my therapy that I haven't used any large fonts or red type or even called anybody and idiot or ignorant (yet). Although I did slip up and say mental midget.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Mark Oomkes "You can ask how long something will take because we are selling our time, not square footage, not acreage, not parking spaces, we are selling time because we only have a limited amount of time to perform our service."

Well said Mark. I am fairly new to these forums, I joined because there is still much I can learn. I know that when we compare how we charge for our time, there are lots of variables. It is unheard of in my area to charge per push, all the accounts are seasonal.
We average 18 events/year. the average driveway is 20'x30' The average rate is $240.00, thats what the market here will pay. At the next town over the max price is $200.00 go figure. All my work is within 5 sq. miles. Most of my tractors are used just for the winter. On average we put 150 hrs a year on them. I keep them for 15 years. etc. So its up to each one of use to price what our area will bear. This forum does not help much for pricing, but its great for getting different perspectives, ideas, and equipment usage. I'm proud of my business, and enjoy posting pictures. I enjoy seeing others being proud of their business, and equipment. Its a great place to vent over PITAs. Its great talking with people who know this crazy business. Looking forward to many more posts.
Paul


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## derekbroerse (Mar 6, 2004)

ducatirider944;529347 said:


> I never took pot shots at your truck. I was going with what I know and a guy that plows with me has a late 70's 3/4 ton that has a Dana 44 front and a 12 bolt rear but those trucks 1/2, 3/4, 1 ton were all pretty exchangeable from any of the three so it might not be what came out of the factory. The 3/4 and 1 ton Chevy's I don't know that much about, any thing else GM rolled out the door I am vey familiar with. Like the 383 is a stroked 350 with a turned down 400 crank to fit the smaller journals from the 350 block. The GM small block is probably the best motor that has ever been built, very interchangeable. Other than the 307 which was a P.O.S. I would take a small block over a big block any day in a classic car. My El Camino has a full roller 355 that puts out 425 hp and 410 ft lbs of torque. You have to be spinning it over 4300 rpm to get the torque and over 5700 rpm for the horsepower. Could you throw it in a heavy truck and pull 20K? Probably if it was geared right and wanted to get 2 mpg. I have close to that at idle and over 570 ft lbs at 2000 rpm. I've owned a 460 and a V-10 and they pull nothing like a diesel! Just my $.02 and the experiences I have had. If your happy with your truck, great. You will like the Vortex heads.
> 
> I agree with you on your rates shouldn't be figured on what your equipment cost you. They should be figured on what the going rate in your area is and the quality of service you provide. Respond away on the hillbilly comment. I didn't say that. I like how people, and this isn't directed towards anyone, can type away on a keyboard but wouldn't say the same thing to someone's face. I damn well guarantee if I type something I would be willing to say the same thing if I was sitting right across from you.


The pot shots and hillbilly comments were posted by CapitalLand, starting at post 50. Thats where this thread really got off topic. You can read my post, #46, for yourself and see that I did not initiate any attacks on him... only disagreed with him.

12 and 10 bolt rear ends are 1/2 ton only. 3/4 and up got the 14 bolt, older ones got the FF and some of the newer ones got the smaller 9.5" SF axle. 3/4's could have either the Dana 44 or 10 Bolt front axle, but they have significantly larger brakes and such on them specific to the 3/4 ton. A real one-ton will always have the old school Dana 60... which is still not unbreakable, btw.

The 383 was something I custom built following the recipe from GM's HT383 in the catalog. Roller cam, SCAT crank, vortec heads, Keith Black hypereutectic pistons with skirt coat, gapless rings, and TBI (vs carb the GM one used). In fact, along with the Vortec head upgrade, I added the matching Vortec TBI intake, a bored over rebuilt throttle body, stainless headers... still need to add the stainless dual exhaust to her.

GM rated it at 340hp/435ft.lbs... mine should be a little more with the higher compression. Also makes over 400 ft.lbs. from 2500-4000rpm. With the manual fourspeed and 4.56 gears, she moves with some authority. Maybe not a turbodiesel, but I can tell you from....ummmm... experience  that this 7400lb dump truck can get a holeshot and pull a ricer civic thru the first three gears! LOL Don't ask how I know this. I'm a good boy.

But its by no means a racer. Idles nice and smooth, gets mid-teens for MPG on the highway... which should only improve with the O/D gearbox (if I ever get enough time to install the fool thing, had it for three years!)

Anyways, back to work for me.Gotta go do the 'on call' driveway now. Oh well, another $87.50...


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## AUB1 (Dec 9, 2008)

I agree with you Guys who say we should get at LEAST $45 PER driveway, even if it's a small one. I have a huge problem with some Guys around here trying to undercut us. Last winter 2 Guys advertized in our local paper saying they do driveways for $10-$15 each. They said they were a couple of retired Guys who were bored and didn't like seeing people being over charged. Plowing is my job in the winter, period. When I read that ad I was thinking about the 2 foot piece of Iron I have under my seat for checking my tires, and maby finding another use for it!


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

My minimum is about $30-35 for just plowing. In order to get $40-45 for a resi drive, we would have to give them full service. That's the market around here. I am going to start playing around with pricing though, and see how much I can get. I already have a full schedule.


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## Schuley (Jul 22, 2009)

We have a pretty large landscape company in my town passing fliers out to almost every home for $14.50 per plow. Hard to get $35 a drive with guys like that around. We still got 100% of our customers back from last year (about 45) but our resi's ended up being $25/plow with shoveling the walk up to the house. 90% of them are single car drives though... (only about 35 customersare resi, the other 10 are commercial and MUCH higher profit)


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## jbis1782 (Oct 13, 2009)

I have to get at least $45-50 for a standard drive (20x30) to cover my overhead and drive time. One of my employee's does plowing on his own and can charge $25-$30 per drive because he has no overhead and adverticng costs. He passes out fliers in October and offers discounts if the neighbors also use him. Last year he had 20 drives is one subdivision. They were all about two to three blocks from each other and he charged $20 per drive. Each drive took about 10-15 min with shoveling.Figure on the slow side. If he takes 15 min per drive and no travel time, he was making $80 an hour. He has a 2007 Chevy with a snow-way back drag plow and does a very good job. He retained all 20 customers in that subdivision and is getting more every day. He has 3 subdivisions where does this deal to eliminate the drive time. No overhead and no drive time makes a big difference in any business. 
Just my .02


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## Eric78Fordzilla (Oct 21, 2009)

everybodt jealous of us LOWBALLING farm boy with a old truck that runs like a rapped ape and a plow keep your nice trucks high rate i will lowball allday and do an awsome job shoveling and all


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

Eric78Fordzilla;841460 said:


> everybodt jealous of us LOWBALLING farm boy with a old truck that runs like a rapped ape and a plow keep your nice trucks high rate i will lowball allday and do an awsome job shoveling and all


This is the same person that was asking for price help, sure hope this above post was a joke.



> what do you guys use as a rule of thumb for charging people. my first year a couple of driveways what do i use as a guage on money i live in southwest michigan snows coming and i need to bid on a couple other places any ideas. i have no clue.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

*Plowing Driveways Unprofessional?*

$45 is about our average


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Eric78Fordzilla;841460 said:


> everybodt jealous of us LOWBALLING farm boy with a old truck that runs like a rapped ape and a plow keep your nice trucks high rate i will lowball allday and do an awsome job shoveling and all





Scott's;842058 said:


> This is the same person that was asking for price help, sure hope this above post was a joke.


I know I'm jealous of Eric's spelling prowess.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;845403 said:


> I know I'm jealous of Eric's spelling prowess.


:laughing:

20 drives for $20...okay thats $400, pretty good money right? Well when you have to replace an alternator or battery or trans wouldn't you have rather charged $30 and made $600 and been able to actually pay for the repairs your plowing caused.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

Eric78Fordzilla;841460 said:


> everybodt jealous of us LOWBALLING farm boy with a old truck that runs like a rapped ape and a plow keep your nice trucks high rate i will lowball allday and do an awsome job shoveling and all


There is no easy, or polite way of telling you this...Your an idiot! The pigs you tend to have a higher IQ.

I just got done reading your other posts...It is a matter of time before you either give up or get banned. I hope it is the later.

My apologizes to the OP for going off topic here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RepoMan207;845578 said:


> There is no easy, or polite way of telling you this...Your an idiot! The pigs you tend to have a higher IQ.
> 
> I just got done reading your other posts...It is a matter of time before you either give up or get banned. I hope it is the later.
> 
> My apologizes to the OP for going off topic here.


Have I ever told you that you're awesome? :laughing::laughing:


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Scott's;842058 said:


> This is the same person that was asking for price help, sure hope this above post was a joke.


Don't worry about it he's full of these so called "jokes" the last couple days. He's a real comedian.


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