# How do you make any money with all the cost?



## Hondaplowguy (Dec 25, 2008)

Ok, you need a decent truck(probably already have), plow ($3,000-5,000), insurance on commercial vehicle and GL, and the fact that sometimes it only snows 4 times in one year. I just picked up a nice used Western plow really cheap and was wanting to step out of the sidewalks and driveways into commercial but damn I don't see how a guy could make it if you paid for everything to be legit. Is there something I'm not seeing here. For the last 2 years lawn and landscaping has been sucking worse and worse as well because of all the cost. I really don't see where I'm getting anywhere working for myself anymore. I typically make about the exact same as my last jobs wages except it didn't cost me anything to be there.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Simple, move to Canada tymusic


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## Hondaplowguy (Dec 25, 2008)

Don't tempt me. Canada has been looking like a better choice for awhile now.


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## FordFisherman (Dec 5, 2007)

The reality is you have to bust your a$$ for at least a season or two to get even on your initial investment, depending on snowfall of course. Then you can start to turn a profit with any luck by year three or four; hopefully your equipment holds up and your able to make some bank for general maintenance and the unexpected repair. A lot of people think its a get rich quick biz- it's not that easy.


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

You need to know your operating costs and bid accordingly.
Hard to make much money the first or second year unless you get plenty of snow.


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## Turf Commando (Dec 16, 2007)

This is my second season I've been saving money to buy another plow for my latest 92 F-150 purchase...
It's very hard to get set in this business the expenses will always be more then your profit. After the second year be established and have enough to keep going..


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

Well, first, you have to have a lot of work. Figure out what it costs you per hour, per route, or per storm and charge that amount plus what your desired profit is. Trucks are expensive to keep up. But just keep going out there picking up work, and you will be suprised how many people will want you to do work for them. Around here there is a big demand for residential work, but commercial is cut-throat.


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

Time is the factor like some stated. I drive newer stuff anyhow, so a truck payment is the norm. After a few years the plows pay for themselves. The more trucks/plows, the more $$$. Being in business for other things helps, then snow is like a bonus. The work sucks but the money is good once you get rolling. Its nothing to make a couple grand during one event if you play your cards right.


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## Hondaplowguy (Dec 25, 2008)

I would probably only be doing 1 gas station, 1 or 2 bars, and maybe something else small. I guess I should rethink even doing this. The insurance would eat up everything made on thise places. I'd be working for free or maybe even costing me to work.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Hondaplowguy;813351 said:


> I would probably only be doing 1 gas station, 1 or 2 bars, and maybe something else small. I guess I should rethink even doing this. The insurance would eat up everything made on thise places. I'd be working for free or maybe even costing me to work.


I dont know this from personal experience, but have heard plowing bars is a high liability?.....why dont you pick up more work? That dosent seem like enough work for 1 route? You also could subcontract to another company on top of the few jobs you have, making it worth while?


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## Hondaplowguy (Dec 25, 2008)

snocrete;813367 said:


> I dont know this from personal experience, but have heard plowing bars is a high liability?.....why dont you pick up more work? That dosent seem like enough work for 1 route? You also could subcontract to another company on top of the few jobs you have, making it worth while?


Well I guess the gas station maybe out of the question too then because its got a Casino with a full liquir bar as well.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Your not going to make a ton a money the first year. It's more experience that you'll get from that 1 st year. Then you will start to make money.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Did you tell your insurance what kinds of places you are plowing? If so, then I know why you are wondering how to turn a profit?


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## Hondaplowguy (Dec 25, 2008)

snocrete;813381 said:


> Did you tell your insurance what kinds of places you are plowing? If so, then I know why you are wondering how to turn a profit?


I worry about not making any profit because the insurance would be likely $1,500. Lets say it snow 5 times and I have 5 accounts. 2 are $150 ea. and the other 3 are $100 ea. That comes out to $3,000 total. $3k-$1.5K ins=1.5K. That 1.5k-other expenses would leave me sitting bad. I fear to take on more than about 5 jobs because everyone wants them dome by opening(8:00 or earlier). Lets sat it doesn't even start snowing real heavy until 4:00 a.m. That leaves me not much time to go all over plowing.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Hondaplowguy;813398 said:


> I worry about not making any profit because the insurance would be likely $1,500. Lets say it snow 5 times and I have 5 accounts. 2 are $150 ea. and the other 3 are $100 ea. That comes out to $3,000 total. $3k-$1.5K ins=1.5K. That 1.5k-other expenses would leave me sitting bad. I fear to take on more than about 5 jobs because everyone wants them dome by opening(8:00 or earlier). Lets sat it doesn't even start snowing real heavy until 4:00 a.m. That leaves me not much time to go all over plowing.


Welcome to the snowing business! You could make that much money working the Christmas season in a store and without the headaches

Guess you have more thinking to do.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

What if it starts snowing at 7 am? I cant make a good estimate of time without pics or layouts, but its seems to me you could take on more work?.........and they cant ALL ALWAYS expect to be done by 8am....otherwise your just setting yourself up for disaster. Do you have a backup truck? What happens if you break down?


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## Hondaplowguy (Dec 25, 2008)

snocrete;813407 said:


> What if it starts snowing at 7 am? I cant make a good estimate of time without pics or layouts, but its seems to me you could take on more work?.........and they cant ALL ALWAYS expect to be done by 8am....otherwise your just setting yourself up for disaster. Do you have a backup truck? What happens if you break down?


I've got 2 other vehicles but only the one plow. Its a cable ran older Western so its not like it would even help to have mounts on one of the other trucks because the cables are ran thru the dash. If I had a lot of business lined up I'd get another plow for one of the other trucks.


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

You plow with the storm. If it doesn't start snowing till 5...then you go out at 5. Snow won't pile up that fast usually so customers understand.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

This business isn't for alot of people. Who the heck wants to wake up at 2am to go work in the 10deg weather in wet crappy conditions. On top of that if it doesn't snow you don't make any money. 

Oh yeah, I do...bring it on!


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## CP Paul (Sep 18, 2009)

Triple L;812828 said:


> Simple, move to Canada tymusic


Triple is right, Canada is _the _ place!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Wow, a newbie with intelligent questions. 

Congrats!


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## AiRhed (Dec 27, 2007)

> Triple is right, Canada is the place!


Haha, see you there! Canada care sounds a hell of a lot better than Obama care!


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Many guys have said "know your rates per hour" etc. thats all well and good and you should know it. But every year there is more and more and more guys plowing (at least in my neck of the woods) for 30-50% LESS than what is was the year before. This and lawn care will never change until there is more stricter guidelines. All in all if I could go back I think I would just do sidewalks. All I can say is it gets real old chasing after accounts, property manager's, trying to get them to give you a straight answer and I could go on and on. IMO there is less money in commercial than residential (in most cases). One of the only reasons I got into plowing more is a lot of our commercial accounts wanted to deal with 1 company. Thats where you start running into more and more expenses. Here's my break down...and i'll compare new to new.
A shinny new big quad-7-8k
A plow for the quad-600-800 bucks
Fuel for quad (for a night) maybe 20-30 bucks
Minimal if any ins. needed

A shinny new 3/4 p/u truck-25-35k
A plow for the truck-4-5k (if not more)
Fuel for a night 75-125 bucks
Ins for truck and GL (average) 150-200/month

Pay for a quad around here....30-35/hr
Pay for a 3/4 truck w/8ft blade35-45/hr

To me is a no brainer! Plus sidewalk guys are out more often the plow guys.


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## Hondaplowguy (Dec 25, 2008)

Brian Young;814841 said:


> Many guys have said "know your rates per hour" etc. thats all well and good and you should know it. But every year there is more and more and more guys plowing (at least in my neck of the woods) for 30-50% LESS than what is was the year before. This and lawn care will never change until there is more stricter guidelines. All in all if I could go back I think I would just do sidewalks. All I can say is it gets real old chasing after accounts, property manager's, trying to get them to give you a straight answer and I could go on and on. IMO there is less money in commercial than residential (in most cases). One of the only reasons I got into plowing more is a lot of our commercial accounts wanted to deal with 1 company. Thats where you start running into more and more expenses. Here's my break down...and i'll compare new to new.
> A shinny new big quad-7-8k
> A plow for the quad-600-800 bucks
> Fuel for quad (for a night) maybe 20-30 bucks
> ...


Yes I can agree with that. Last year I did almost all residental and 2 small parking lots. I used 1 Honda single stage snowblower, 1 Honda 2 stage, 1 Honda ATV with 48" plow and homemade wing extensions that made it 60+ for when the snow was light enough. My best invesatment over all that was my 36" and 48" poly hand shovels. There was days I never even loaded to ATV or the blowers. I operated out of 2WD S-10 4banger and shoveled the 2-3" snowfalls that way. It was fast as using anything else. I never really was looking to go commercial but I mow for a lady who owns a big apartment complex and the big gas station with the casino attached and she asked me if I would get into it to service her locations. I did locate and buy a nice Western plow for virtually nothing but like you said there isn't alot of benifit to running it out of a truck. Around here almost nobody has a driveway longer than 50 feet so blowers and/or ATV works great there. I guess maybe I'll hold onto the plow just in case but skip the whole commercial thing and just do drifted in private roads so I can avoid the GL.


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

FordFisherman;812834 said:


> The reality is you have to bust your a$$ for at least a season or two to get even on your initial investment, depending on snowfall of course. Then you can start to turn a profit with any luck by year three or four; hopefully your equipment holds up and your able to make some bank for general maintenance and the unexpected repair. A lot of people think its a get rich quick biz- it's not that easy.


Well said! For me, its all seasonal contracts with a cap limit, so it can make things easier sometimes. One thing to be careful about is, growing your business moderately instead of getting big to fast.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Triple L;812828 said:


> Simple, move to Canada tymusic


Move to Canada? Beer is double the cost in Canada


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## plowtime1 (Nov 1, 2007)

purplebouCreative...your absolutely correct IMO
I've seen this numerous times...and I never wish ill on anyone, but can't fault'em for trying.
But I must say...I don't mind picking up their former accounts as long as they pay well. purplebou


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Superior L & L;814899 said:


> Move to Canada? Beer is double the cost in Canada


Only because its 2X stronger.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

There is good & bad to all segments of the business. From my standing after 15 years in this business. Both residential & commercial can be profitable. This has been my experience. Pluses & minus.

Commercial: More liability, larger more expensive equipment needed, material storage. Fewer clients to deal with expectations per dollar.
Residential: Less liability, More customer relations per dollar. 

In my market if residential is done properly it can be far more profitable than commercial. That said I'm still mainly commercial. If I were a one person show trying to make a living, or part time income (10-15,000) I would concentrate on residentials. My gut feeling is at some point we will begin pushing residential again....very competively, probably a couple years down the road only because I want to do it right.


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

Superior L & L;814899 said:


> Move to Canada? Beer is double the cost in Canada


Except in Quebec! lol, its considerably cheaper there 

A 24 of Keiths or Corona is $28


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## LarryK (Sep 27, 2009)

CP Paul;813604 said:


> Triple is right, Canada is _the _ place!


Ok if you want real snow, come to Oswego county in upstate NY. We don't bother with inchs, we just measure it in FEET!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

LarryK;815863 said:


> Ok if you want real snow, come to Oswego county in upstate NY. We don't bother with inchs, we just measure it in FEET!


And that's why the women flock there!


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## CP Paul (Sep 18, 2009)

Oswego, NY looks to be right off lake Ontario, North of Syracuse. If this is where you are, you are either getting Toronto amounts of snow which isn't much up here or your getting majorly dumped on. All those freezing southerly winds off that enormous lake, ya could be.


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## bowtie_guy (Jan 1, 2004)

Come out to ontario, 

Just checked my invoices and last year my first outting was Nov 20th, last outting was Feb 27th. Thought we were out in March but no record of it. Anyways total of 24 events during that time.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

i would like to say in regardes to insurance, i am surprised at $1500 for a year of insurance for how small you are considering on going, i would shop around for a better insurance rate


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## Peterbilt (Apr 28, 2007)

I need to be able to make my yearly investment back in the first snow fall. If that goes well, its all gravy after that.

Problem is, my investments have gotten alot bigger, so I need to plow more accounts.

J.


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## ottguy (Mar 17, 2004)

CP Paul;815923 said:


> Oswego, NY looks to be right off lake Ontario, North of Syracuse. If this is where you are, you are either getting Toronto amounts of snow which isn't much up here or your getting majorly dumped on. All those freezing southerly winds off that enormous lake, ya could be.


Yep, Oswego is on the lake.

Like going to Oswego Speedway during the summer months and the lake often effects the rain fall during the summer . (lol)


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## niederhauser la (Feb 10, 2005)

Snow removal is a crappy business to be in. Horrible hours, work is uncertain, lots of expense. If I could get out of the snow business and still pay my bills I would, I just have too much invested.


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## CP Paul (Sep 18, 2009)

bowtie_guy;824122 said:


> Come out to ontario,
> 
> Just checked my invoices and last year my first outting was Nov 20th, last outting was Feb 27th. Thought we were out in March but no record of it. Anyways total of 24 events during that time.


Well, not a surprise that Sudbury would be the Ottawa area. I think we were in the late teens for dumps here.


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## CP Paul (Sep 18, 2009)

....(oops) "would_ beat_ the Ottawa area"


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## asps4u (Sep 16, 2009)

Hondaplowguy;813398 said:


> I worry about not making any profit because the insurance would be likely $1,500. Lets say it snow 5 times and I have 5 accounts. 2 are $150 ea. and the other 3 are $100 ea. That comes out to $3,000 total. $3k-$1.5K ins=1.5K. That 1.5k-other expenses would leave me sitting bad. I fear to take on more than about 5 jobs because everyone wants them dome by opening(8:00 or earlier). Lets sat it doesn't even start snowing real heavy until 4:00 a.m. That leaves me not much time to go all over plowing.


I don't understand why you would limit yourself to 5 accounts? Why wouldn't you pick up some residentials to do after the other 5 are open? Seems like you are holding back something? Do you have another job to get to? If not than you'd have plenty of time after those 5 lots to make profit from some resi's, especially if you can get them really close together JMO.


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