# Very Late in the season



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

So I get a call today from a place looking for another plow company for the rest of the season.

This is a commercial site with 3 acres of plowable blacktop.

I get asked if I have commercial insurance and I ask him if he is referring to General Liability insurance and the reply was insurance to plow a commercial site and they go on to say the company that had been plowing only had insurance to do residential driveways.

Whoops someone lied to their insurance company for lower rates and got caught. 

I informed him as I do 99.9 percent all commercial that yes I have commercial insurance.

Funny thing is, this is the first year I didn't bid on this place as I had been placing bids on this place for the last 7 years with no luck -(now I know the company doing it was paying very low insurance rates and could bid a lot lower and beat my prices) 

Meeting the gentleman in a few days to go over the site specs so maybe I will be picking this up after 7 years, which goes to show never give up and always put a bid in every year because you never know when opportunity will knock.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Do you have room for it on your route?

Was there a recent s&f claim on the site?


I would scrutinize everything regarding that potential customer, as calls I've received mid season, I'm usually skeptical of the intent or reason for their immediate need.

Some folks want to be "first" on my route, and that honor goes to my long standing customers, and not any new additions. Some take offense when you tell them they're gonna be last on the already existing route, and find someone else


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

MSsnowplowing said:


> I get asked if I have commercial insurance and I ask him if he is referring to General Liability insurance and the reply was insurance to plow a commercial site and they go on to say the company that had been plowing only had insurance to do residential driveways.
> 
> Whoops someone lied to their insurance company for lower rates and got caught.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm just ignorant, but what benefit is there to lying to the insurance agent? In the event you had to use the insurance, wouldn't you be completely and utterly screwed? Why even bother with insurance at that point?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> I'm just ignorant


Think I just found a new signature line...

I'm still tired, but isn't residential plowing "commercial" work by definition? Not like DOT differentiates between residential vs commercial plowing.

Maybe it's different in each state. Liability insurance is liability insurance.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Think I just found a new signature line...


Could have at least included the "Maybe"


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Could have at least included the "Maybe"


Why???


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Some folks want to be "first" on my route, and that honor goes to my long standing customers, and not any new additions. Some take offense when you tell them they're gonna be last on the already existing route, and find someone else


I hear a lot of people say this. Depends where your new addition is located right? It's all about logistics. If a new addition happens to be next your "first" on your route, would you do them first or second when it makes sense, or double back around to your first location just to make them last on your list?


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Luther said:


> I hear a lot of people say this. Depends where your new addition is located right? It's all about logistics. If a new addition happens to be next your "first" on your route, would you do them first or second when it makes sense, or double back around to your first location just to make them last on your list?


Yes, if logistics work out, I guess it could be managed, but, storm timing plays a big role, as well as existing customers requirements for their lots. It also depends on how many of "you" there are. One man or two man bands may not be able to fulfill the new customers needs in a timely manner.

let's put it this way..

You have a customer, several customers who've been utilizing you for years.

A new customer wants you at a specific time, specific to their business needs, and their place cleaned up and ready by opening time after a storm. lets say they want you there, and done by 7:00am for each storm.

You already have several customers who have the exact same requirements. You can't be everywhere at the same time, so someone needs to take precedence, right ? Especially during a storm that starts early am, and goes through their intended opening time, or ends relatively close to it.

I've told these "prospective" customers this:

"I already have customers who need me by 7:00am, cleared and ready to roll. I understand you need it as well, but you might wind up being the last one cleared, as my customers I have already come first."

I ask them this :

"Would you be okay with me taking on new customer and having your clearing time bumped to last, or afterwords, simply because the new customer demanded it ? You'd be upset, right? if the roles were reversed?"

Most commercial property owners I've come across who've searched me out, mid or late season, don't want to hear they're going to be last on my run. Heck, I have resi owners that complain when I can't make their homes first. They usually find another contractor, who either has the opening at the time, or placates them, hoping when they arrive late to their "new " customer's site, they'll get used to it.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Once you reach capacity just say no. Not sure I would ever tell a potential client you’ll be late to service them because my existing customers always come first. That doesn’t work so good as part of your sales process.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Think I just found a new signature line...
> 
> I'm still tired, but isn't residential plowing "commercial" work by definition? Not like DOT differentiates between residential vs commercial plowing.
> 
> Maybe it's different in each state. Liability insurance is liability insurance.


I'm pretty sure if your plowing for money its commercial.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

cwren2472 said:


> Maybe I'm just ignorant, but what benefit is there to lying to the insurance agent? In the event you had to use the insurance, wouldn't you be completely and utterly screwed? Why even bother with insurance at that point?


Ask the guy that does roofs but got mad at me for suggesting he makes sure he's covered to do them from his insurance company.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Think I just found a new signature line...
> 
> I'm still tired, but isn't residential plowing "commercial" work by definition? Not like DOT differentiates between residential vs commercial plowing.
> 
> Maybe it's different in each state. Liability insurance is liability insurance.


You can get lower rates for insurance cost if your just doing residential because the risk is lower than commercial.

But if you service a commercial site and something happens then your insurance doesn't cover you.

I figure there was a slip and fall due to ice conditions, the 19th I used 10 tons of product due the icing when I normally use 4 tons.

Then on the 30th, pouring rain ending at 3am and by 4am sheets of ice and anyone not putting product down was in trouble by 7-8am when most places of business open.

I've sanded more this season than I have plowed.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Do you have room for it on your route?
> 
> Was there a recent s&f claim on the site?
> 
> ...


Oh I can get them in the route because I have 5 smaller properties that only take about 2 hours on the same road and only 2 minutes from it.

That's what I figuring happened and that's how found out the company didn't have commercial insurance coverage and only residential.

And I intend to scrutinize everything.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Luther said:


> Once you reach capacity just say no. Not sure I would ever tell a potential client you'll be late to service them because my existing customers always come first. That doesn't work so good as part of your sales process.


If that works for you, that's cool.

For,me, telling them that they're late to the game ( or my game, if you wish ) is being upfront and truthful from the onset of the proposed relationship developing.

In the past, I've gone the other route, and withheld this info, took on the job, and because they wound up last on my route, as I had anticipated, they got mad.

Personally, being upfront and honest regarding my anticipations, is my only sales process I follow through completely with. Some like it, and some do not.

Such is life.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> So in the event of having to file a claim, does he just hope he gets an adjuster with an IQ somewhere between an artichoke and a cucumber?


LOL, I have no idea.

I mean if you can't afford GL insurance for commercial places you should not be in the plowing business.

If it was a slip and fall the guys screwed if his insurance is not covering it because he didn't tell them he was doing a commercial site.

Most places ask for a Cert of Liability from the plow company, I'm wondering if they did not in this case.

I will find out when I meet them because I'm asking.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> If that works for you, that's cool.
> 
> For,me, telling them that they're late to the game ( or my game, if you wish ) is being upfront and truthful from the onset of the proposed relationship developing.
> 
> ...


That's the way it should be.

I had to turn down 2 clients this year who contacted me late in the season -(end of december) because I didn't have enough trucks and I couldn't get to them in a timely manner because their locations were further away. 
I told them I didn't like losing business but I don't take on clients unless I can do it right and they understood and respected that. 
By doing so I showed them a professional attitude to do things right and this left the door open for next year if I get more trucks and decide to expand further out.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> . Maybe it's different in each state. Liability insurance is liability insurance.


I fee like every time I see my insurance agent I get interrogated to find out what type of work I am up too. Always end up walking out of there with a few more hundred dollars tacked onto my policy. Would think a GL policy for construction work would cover just about everything but apparently it doesn't


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Masssnowfighter said:


> I fee like every time I see my insurance agent I get interrogated to find out what type of work I am up too. Always end up walking out of there with a few more hundred dollars tacked onto my policy. Would think a GL policy for construction work would cover just about everything but apparently it doesn't


I feel you, I just got audited by my insurance, had to download taxes from last year and of course last year was a good year so I made a bit more.

Waiting for the axe to fall to find out how much more they are tacking on.

And yes this is yearly thing with my insurance, I think what you pay for insurance should be based on claims made, not what you make yearly.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

MSsnowplowing said:


> I feel you, I just got audited by my insurance, had to download taxes from last year and of course last year was a good year so I made a bit more.
> 
> Waiting for the axe to fall to find out how much more they are tacking on.
> 
> And yes this is yearly thing with my insurance, I think what you pay for insurance should be based on claims made, not what you make yearly.


Yeah that annoys the hell out of me too, I feel like I'm getting squeezed by the mafia after every insurance audit


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

MSsnowplowing said:


> And yes this is yearly thing with my insurance, I think what you pay for insurance should be based on claims made, not what you make yearly.


More income more exposure = higher rates


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

A true old story. Blizzard of 78. Got a call from a neighbor to a commercial client of ours desiring our service because their plower quuit, had a mental breakdown. I accepted, worked hard to clear the lot and kept new client happy the rest of the season. The following season we were unable to resign the "new" client. Why? We were too expensive. So I asked who they hired. 
Yup, the contractor that quit on them during the Blizzard of 78. OP, there's a lesson here. Don't get played.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Masssnowfighter said:


> Yeah that annoys the hell out of me too, I feel like I'm getting squeezed by the mafia after every insurance audit


 Nothing to brag about but I'm getting 1400$ back after audit! All that means is I screwed around snowboarding, kitesurfing and blowing off work for trips etc instead of working ! Sticking to my post cancer goal,work less, enjoy life lol. If my income drops any more I'll just buy a 6 pack and go fishing!:dancing:


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Herm Witte said:


> A true old story. Blizzard of 78. Got a call from a neighbor to a commercial client of ours desiring our service because their plower quuit, had a mental breakdown. I accepted, worked hard to clear the lot and kept new client happy the rest of the season. The following season we were unable to resign the "new" client. Why? We were too expensive. So I asked who they hired.
> Yup, the contractor that quit on them during the Blizzard of 78. OP, there's a lesson here. Don't get played.


The converse of this example is

5 or 6 years back, I stopped at a local retail building material supply I buy from. The snow contractor who was doing their lot hasn't showed up. It was halfway through the workday, and There was 4 to 5" of snow on the lot. I proceeded to clear the front of the building where all the customers park, and clean up the place for the guys.

The manager comes out and asks "what am I doing? "

I asked him, " where is your plow guy? Your customers have to trudge through all this ?"

He said " I don't know. We've been waiting for hours for him. He's really unreliable."

I said. " well, I need some stuff, and I'll be in in a few moments after I clear your frontage of the building. No charge to you. I just want your customers to be safe."

He goes in and I finish the front. I think I spent 5 minutes tops.

I walk in, and grab the materials I need. Manager cones up to me and asks. " how much do we owe you?"

I said,, " you owe nothing. I'm done with my route, and heading home. I just couldn't see leaving your place like that. "

Manager says, " are you able to service our lot from now on? If so, send the bill for today, and we want you here servicing our store for snow plowing."

5.5 years later

Been there since. They're my highest paying customer. Its a big Corp. And,I don't see my money for 40 days or so, but its what it is.

So, I guess it all depends on the people you're working with, whether or not it's worthwhile in the long run, taking on jobs late,in the season


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Weren’t you the one to tell them they’re too late to the game and they would be last on your list? Timing and all that other stuff. Yet this example you seem very accommodating.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Luther said:


> Weren't you the one to tell them they're too late to the game and they would be last on your list? Timing and all that other stuff. Yet this example you seem very accommodating.


Oh yeah ...

Life is static, there's nothing that changes from season to season, and attrition and replacement never transpires

You figured me out.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

BUFF said:


> More income more exposure = higher rates


I wouldn't mind that if my insurance didn't restrict me to not being able to plow certain places.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

MSsnowplowing said:


> I wouldn't mind that if my insurance didn't restrict me to not being able to plow certain places.


That has to be due to some state regulation, oot here when it comes to lawn and snow monkey work premiums are all based oof gross income.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

BUFF said:


> That has to be due to some state regulation, oot here when it comes to lawn and snow monkey work premiums are all based oof gross income.


 Same for me here in Ct.My policy only excludes plowing public roads. My agent,who always tells me to contact him and to never talk to ins company directly said,"unless you see a printed exclusion in your policy its covered ".All I do is send a copy of Sch c profit and loss to the audit dept and that's it.I think each ins company has their own protocols that they follow.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

leigh said:


> Same for me here in Ct.My policy only excludes plowing public roads. My agent,who always tells me to contact him and to never talk to ins company directly said,"unless you see a printed exclusion in your policy its covered ".All I do is send a copy of Sch c profit and loss to the audit dept and that's it.I think each ins company has their own protocols that they follow.


So MS is on the east side of Ct and would think his ins would be the same but based on his post his is different. Could be the carrier driving it.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

No public roads
No gas stations
No medical facilities Inc hospitals
No conveince stores

All commercial facilities must be listed with the policy rep.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> No public roads
> No gas stations
> No medical facilities Inc hospitals
> No conveince stores
> ...


 It's crazy how it has gotten. My insurance agent has told me flat out do not take on any new snow accounts with out getting his permission first or risk losing my policy.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

The only exemption I have, is no tree removal, which means I can't cut them down.
I can trim branches and do storm clean up, just not felling them, that's on the lawn side obviously.
Just went through my policy a couple weeks ago. We do about 50- 50 mix of commercial and residential, that's all he asked.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Masssnowfighter said:


> It's crazy how it has gotten. My insurance agent has told me flat out do not take on any new snow accounts with out getting his permission first or risk losing my policy.


Same words spoken here.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

BUFF said:


> So MS is on the east side of Ct and would think his ins would be the same but based on his post his is different. Could be the carrier driving it.


I would say yes on the carrier, my insurance does not cover me if I take on big box stores like walmart, home depot, and hospitals along with public roads.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Update:

So basically the previous company is primarily a landscaping company that decided to go into plowing and they got a rider for plowing snow on their landscaping policy, but their insurance thought it was just residential they were plowing and not commercial. 

Once they found it was commercial the guys payment shot way up -(was paying less than $500 a year for plowing insurance) and he wouldn't make any money plowing it so he dropped it. 

Needless to say their insurance requirements are a bit high so I just sent it to my agent and said how much more will it cost me.

Then with that in hand, I will bid it.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I do have a city contract for unmaintained public walks.
The city code enforcement sends a letter to the property owner giving notice of the violation. They have 3 days to comply, if not, they e mail me the address and I have 48 hours to achieve bare pavement full width.
I invoice the city, who tacks it on their utility bill, after they add $100 administration fee.
My insurance company doesn't like the 3rd party aspect of the relationship.
But, I have their approval until a slip/fall occurs. Then they may pull the plug, this is my second year of the contract.


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## NewEnglandSteelersFan (Nov 26, 2017)

Just curious, what was it like (insurance costs/restrictions/etc) for the senior guys here on plowsite that were plowing, lets say, back in the 1970’s?


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

In West Michigan insurance has really not been a significant operational issue as I recall. Just a cost of doing business. We have some localities that require snowplow licences, with varying costs for the company and for each vehicle. A frustrating cost due to the amount of non licensed firms/individuals and lack of enforcement. Over the years the volatility of fuel and salt pricing has been more of a thorn in whatever. That's about what my dementia will allow me to remember. Nah actually a lot more, we'll save it for another day.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

I often wondered why they don't base our liability costs off the customers we maintain, salt or not etc.... It seems they look at revenue only and I'm not even sure they look at where the revenue comes from other than wages for comp. Maybe cause it snows here - the Jersey BS isn't in play here.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Update:

This is their insurance requirements.

Contractors shall secure, pay for and maintain the following insurance policies in full force and effect during the term of the agreement:

1) Workers’ Compensation affording coverage under the Workers’ Compensation laws of the State of Connecticut and Employer’s Liability coverage subject to a limit of no less than $500,000 each employee, $500,000 each accident and disease and $500,000 policy limit.

2) Commercial General Liability Insurance for limits of $1,000,000 per occurrence Bodily Injury and Property Damage combined, $1,000,000 per occurrence Personal and Advertising Injury, $2,000,000 Aggregate Products and Completed Operations Liability and $2,000,000 General Aggregate limit per location.

3)Business Automobile Liability Insurance for Bodily Injury and Property Damage in the amount of $1,000,000 combined and covering all owned, non-owned and hired vehicles.

The liability policies referenced above shall be written on an occurrence basis with no deductible, and shall be endorsed to name -(Clients Name) “Additional Insured.” The definition of “Additional Insured” shall include Partners, Affiliates, Officers, Directors, Employees, Agents and Representatives of the named entity including any managing agent. Further, coverage for the “Additional Insured” shall apply on a primary and non-contributory basis, regardless of any other insurance, whether collectible or not.

4) Umbrella Liability Insurance at not less than $1,000,000 limit providing excess coverage over all limits and coverages above. This policy shall be written on an occurrence basis.

It gets better

The Contractor shall, to the fullest extent permitted by law and at its own cost and expense (which may include insurance proceeds), defend, indemnify and hold -(Client), its trustees, partners, affiliates, directors, officers, employees, servants, representatives and agents harmless from and against any and all claims, loss (including but not limited to attorneys’ fees, witnesses’ fees and all court costs), damages, expense and liability (including statutory liability), resulting from injury, disease or death of any person or damage to or loss of any property arising out of any negligent or wrongful act, error, omission or breach of contract, in connection with the performance of the Contractor and/or its subcontractors, agents or employees.

The foregoing indemnity shall include injury, disease or death of any employee of the Contractor and shall not be limited in any way by any amount or type of damages, compensation or benefits payable under any applicable Workers’ Compensation, Disability Benefits or other similar employee benefits act.

The Contractor agrees to waive its rights of subrogation against The - (Client), its partners, affiliates, directors, officers, employees, servants, representatives and agents applicable to any claims brought against them by the Contractor’s employees.
----------------------------------------------

So in effect, we want you to have a ton of insurance that will cost an additional $1,200 to $1,500 dollars a year and be fully responsible for anything that happens on the property. 

Oh and we want this to be a per storm contract in a light year of snow and the possibly of maybe one or two more storms we might get and that would not even break even the cost of the additional insurance. 

Needless to say my prices reflected this and haven't heard back since I sent the bid in. 

Would have been nice to pick it up but I'm not losing money.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Nothing out of line or outrageous about the insurance limits.

Indemnity clause is a no-go.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

My idemnity clause is ridiculous. I wouldn't even sign my own contracts, but in a sue happy world and careless people its a must. Its snowing outside people, not my fault. At the very least in my neck of the woods slip and falls are considered personal responsibility. Very rearly will insurance or judge side with the "victim" unless you can prove total negligence or contract breach of contractor.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Nothing out of line or outrageous about the insurance limits.
> 
> Indemnity clause is a no-go.


If the contract was seasonal and the additional requirements of insurance could be put in then yes. 
But as it is a per storm and the way it's looking we might only get one or two more storms this year, I would lose money.

It's funny I gave that to my insurance figuring they would not go for it, they had no problem with it.


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