# Using employees truck?



## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Okay, most of you know I run a relatively small sidewalk crew or two. Well this year I'm thinking about expanding the snow/winter side of the business.

I drive a half ton 3rd Gen dodge, and I'm looking to put a plow on it. Please save the "you need a heavier truck" comments, because I feel with our light amounts of snow here my truck can handle it. The truck is in great condition with just under 100k miles, and the the price of trucks I have no interest in getting rid of her. If I do just plowing however, I feel like I'm leaving money on the table without salting. I feel my truck can handle a 700 lb plow up front, but there's no way it can handle a spreader on the back. Maybe a small tailgate spreader, but I feel like those not only look unprofessional, but also are a huge expense (bagged salt) and a time waster.

What are your guys' thoughts on using an employees truck (good friend and has help on sidewalks in the past) for just salting. I would buy the spreader, pay his expenses, and also pay hourly. I would have to make sure I could add his truck to my commercial auto insurance of course, but what are some pros and cons of that idea?

I have a place to store the spreader so he doesn't have to keep it on his truck all winter. I more than likely would be subbing, so he could even do other places that we aren't plowing, and bring in more work that way (around here it seems that only 1 out of 10 guys have spreaders).

Now if I find a good "package deal" I may get a winter truck that's only used for plowing and salting, but as of right now I don't have a budget to spend 20k+ on a new truck, plow, and spreader.


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## plowboy87 (Mar 6, 2014)

JMHConstruction;2145286 said:


> Okay, most of you know I run a relatively small sidewalk crew or two. Well this year I'm thinking about expanding the snow/winter side of the business.
> 
> I drive a half ton 3rd Gen dodge, and I'm looking to put a plow on it. Please save the "you need a heavier truck" comments, because I feel with our light amounts of snow here my truck can handle it. The truck is in great condition with just under 100k miles, and the the price of trucks I have no interest in getting rid of her. If I do just plowing however, I feel like I'm leaving money on the table without salting. I feel my truck can handle a 700 lb plow up front, but there's no way it can handle a spreader on the back. Maybe a small tailgate spreader, but I feel like those not only look unprofessional, but also are a huge expense (bagged salt) and a time waster.
> 
> ...


I think you should start off with a tailgate spreader this first year, and then maybe ( if it snows ) upgrade next year. What if your friend gets sick? Can't drive both trucks.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Keep the 1/2 ton as a back up and get a 3/4 or a one ton. ( its what a PRO would do)

Its time to grow, why are you fighting it?

Using an employs truck is just a band-aid.
what happens if your employee quits, gets fired, sick , dies, doesn't maintain his truck and you can't service the lot(s) that is unprofessional.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

A PRO'r would use a one ton.....lol

U need to replace the word "friend" with "subcontractor'


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

1olddogtwo;2145312 said:


> A PRO'r would use a one ton.....lol
> 
> U need to replace the word "friend" with "subcontractor'


I don't like having friends work for me.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

1olddogtwo;2145312 said:


> U need to replace the word "friend" with "subcontractor'


good'en point, now, put your hat back on.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

1olddogtwo;2145312 said:


> U need to replace the word "friend" with "subcontractor'


uh..... Yep better as a sub.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

My buddy or "friend" Ron (push to please) has asked me to check the entrances and exits (after citys last pass) of his commercial jobs by where I live and plow. Sure, no problem cause we are friends. Now if he asked me to perform regular maintenance on them (IE: plow or salt) I would be his paid subcontractor and paid as such (lots of wings). He'll also check on my dad's since he plows the lot one driveway over from him.

My point is friends are friends.

I get what ur saying and understand where ur coming from but as others have pointed out, it's not a good idea.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Some friends trucks carry the proper insurance just say'en 

He will have to put his friends truck on his ins or lease the truck from him
And fire him as the operator or the friend needs a business of his own ans subs.

The rub is when you fire them or they quit . The truck is gone and so is the friend.

Can it work out, sure.
But....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

1olddogtwo;2145323 said:


> He'll also check on my dad's since he plows the lot one driveway over from him.


Does it really matter if your dad's driveway is plowed?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;2145329 said:


> Does it really matter if your dad's driveway is plowed?


No, nor does he care if the traffic light is red.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Stop sign, stop light.

Meh.....


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Good points guys. Thanks. I figured not the best idea, but thought I'd ask others on their thoughts. Maybe it's just time to bite the bullet on a bigger truck


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

One more question. What do you think of the 1 cubic foot v box vs a tailgate for a half ton? Am I living in a dream world that I can use my truck, or what? I just hate to invest in all this snow equipment (especially a new truck, since mine does fine for me any other time of year) with the way our last two years have been.

There's a lot of companies selling their equipment off, and I don't want that to be me. I just have to keep reminding myself I've had good years in the past.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Mmmmmm, let's roll play this.

How are you going to fill the V?

Let's assume ur local landscape.... end of run, where do you empty it out at? How do you refill it? 

Just a thought.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

You can use your truck for both. Although it's not an ideal set-up. You could put a 1 yard or a 1.5 yard spreader in your truck with air bags in the rear. Couple of hundred bucks for air bags and you should handle the weight just fine. I'd still buy a 1.5 yard spreader, even if you don't fill it all the way up (for now). If/when you get bigger you could transfer the spreader over to a larger truck. As stated above, do you have a means to fill a v box?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

1olddogtwo;2145351 said:


> Mmmmmm, let's roll play this.
> 
> How are you going to fill the V?
> 
> ...


Filling/emptying won't be an issue. I will, for at least a few years, be subcontracting. I run a deck business for residential customers, so for now I wouldn't even know how to approach commercial accounts. The company I'd sub for has a few salt depots setup throughout the city, and they have a guy there on a skid steer during the storm. They're also there for a few hours after. Once/if I get my own accounts I have access to some land where I could store bulk. I just wasn't sure if the 1 cu ft would be worth it. Even if I used thextensively tailgate I'd probably build something in the bed (covered) to hold bulk and just shovel it in the spreader.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Well if you do primary sidewalks how much bagged salt do you go through? Maybe you can buy a larger order before winter kicks off and get a cost reduction?

I know of several multi million dollar companies that only use bagged salt. I wouldn't do it, but it works for them


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Whiffyspark;2145361 said:


> Well if you do primary sidewalks how much bagged salt do you go through? Maybe you can buy a larger order before winter kicks off and get a cost reduction?


8-10 pallets, sometimes more, sometimes less. I don't buy the ice melt though, the company I subcontract for does.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I have never put down salt on a parking lot though. Maybe a tailgate spreader would be best, just to get my feet wet. Even my plow experience is minimum. How many bags of salt would say an averge gas station (not that I'd be doing it, but they're all about the same size) use?

My biggest worry is wasting time with refilling the tailgate spreader all the time. There is a guy here selling a boss 600 (something like that) for $450. All controls and wiring included. Maybe I'll check that out.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

And how would you be compensated, hourly, by the lot/job?


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## plowboy87 (Mar 6, 2014)

JMHConstruction;2145386 said:


> I have never put down salt on a parking lot though. Maybe a tailgate spreader would be best, just to get my feet wet. Even my plow experience is minimum. How many bags of salt would say an averge gas station (not that I'd be doing it, but they're all about the same size) use?
> 
> My biggest worry is wasting time with refilling the tailgate spreader all the time. There is a guy here selling a boss 600 (something like that) for $450. All controls and wiring included. Maybe I'll check that out.


it all depends on how well you can get the lot scrapped, sometimes you will use 1-2 bags more on a snow packed lot vs a lot that scraps up down to bare pavement.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

1olddogtwo;2145415 said:


> And how would you be compensated, hourly, by the lot/job?


All by the job. I'm not a fan of hourly pay, it rewards the slow, and screws those who bust ass.

Looks like I've got some stuff to think about. Thanks everyone for your thoughts.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

Welcome to the "big leagues." When I started in snow 11 years ago, I did so with a F-250 equipped with an 8' straight blade and a tailgate spreader. Nothing wrong with a TGS, other than having to get out to fill every job. One thing I would advise you on is to make sure you buy one that has a means for closing off flow to the spinner, besides just turning off the spinner. Otherwise, you can't load more than what you plan to use right then. The one I had (Meyer Mate) continued to flow slowly even after turning off the spinner which meant even if I had 2 or 3 accounts real close, I had to load each time instead of just filling once real full and going from 1 to the next because it would continue to drop salt while plowing or driving between accounts which meant a lot of wasted salt. Also, I wouldn't even think about using your friends truck for all the reasons already listed by others above. And I wouldn't think about a plow without also doing salt spreading. Think about ALL the little storms we get here that don't warrant plowing, but could/would be salted. And all the freezing rain events. You are leaving A LOT of money for someone else if you don't offer that service. As for we don't get enough here to warrant the investment or our past couple years have been nonexistent, that only means we're do for a good winter. Also, can your half ton do it? Probably, but even if it handles the weight suspension wise, keep in mind it still has to be able to handle that load brake wise. Also, whatever size equipment/truck you think you want now, increase that by a third or one half to allow for eventual growth. I am in the process of specking out a new roll off truck now to the tune of $200k because the F550 I have now that is only 4 years old is WAYYYYY to small and is constantly overloaded. It has a 19,500 GVW and I went across the scale at the dump a couple weeks ago with a dumpster and a gross weight of 30k lbs. So the moral of the story is buy bigger than you think you need because you WILL GROW INTO IT. Then you're only buying once instead of twice like I now am. Good luck.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

derekslawncare;2145428 said:


> Welcome to the "big leagues." When I started in snow 11 years ago, I did so with a F-250 equipped with an 8' straight blade and a tailgate spreader. Nothing wrong with a TGS, other than having to get out to fill every job. One thing I would advise you on is to make sure you buy one that has a means for closing off flow to the spinner, besides just turning off the spinner. Otherwise, you can't load more than what you plan to use right then. The one I had (Meyer Mate) continued to flow slowly even after turning off the spinner which meant even if I had 2 or 3 accounts real close, I had to load each time instead of just filling once real full and going from 1 to the next because it would continue to drop salt while plowing or driving between accounts which meant a lot of wasted salt. Also, I wouldn't even think about using your friends truck for all the reasons already listed by others above. And I wouldn't think about a plow without also doing salt spreading. Think about ALL the little storms we get here that don't warrant plowing, but could/would be salted. And all the freezing rain events. You are leaving A LOT of money for someone else if you don't offer that service. As for we don't get enough here to warrant the investment or our past couple years have been nonexistent, that only means we're do for a good winter. Also, can your half ton do it? Probably, but even if it handles the weight suspension wise, keep in mind it still has to be able to handle that load brake wise. Also, whatever size equipment/truck you think you want now, increase that by a third or one half to allow for eventual growth. I am in the process of specking out a new roll off truck now to the tune of $200k because the F550 I have now that is only 4 years old is WAYYYYY to small and is constantly overloaded. It has a 19,500 GVW and I went across the scale at the dump a couple weeks ago with a dumpster and a gross weight of 30k lbs. So the moral of the story is buy bigger than you think you need because you WILL GROW INTO IT. Then you're only buying once instead of twice like I now am. Good luck.


Don't welcome me to the big leagues just yet, I'm more like AAA right now:laughing:. I'm thinking at least for this year using the truck I have and getting a tailgate spreader. Then next year hopefully getting something bigger and using my truck now as a back up. I'm just bouncing ideas right now. Because it's been so hot out lately I've only been doing a few bids a week (people are staying inside and not using their decks as much), so I've had some time to think about things, both summer and winter.

I've also thought about getting a beater 3/4-1 ton to plow and salt in (guy on CL is selling truck, plow, and spreader for 10k), and let the guys use my truck to haul the sidewalk stuff in. But I don't want them beating the hell out of my truck. Lots to think about, and I've got some time to do it. Hopefully I will start picking up again and money won't be a worry.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

JMHConstruction;2145360 said:


> Filling/emptying won't be an issue. I will, for at least a few years, be subcontracting. I run a deck business for residential customers, so for now I wouldn't even know how to approach commercial accounts. The company I'd sub for has a few salt depots setup throughout the city, and they have a guy there on a skid steer during the storm. They're also there for a few hours after. Once/if I get my own accounts I have access to some land where I could store bulk. I just wasn't sure if the 1 cu ft would be worth it. Even if I used thextensively tailgate I'd probably build something in the bed (covered) to hold bulk and just shovel it in the spreader.


The cheaper tail gate spreaders won't spread bulk 
Make sure the spreader you buy will spread bulk


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

ponyboy;2145450 said:


> The cheaper tail gate spreaders won't spread bulk
> Make sure the spreader you buy will spread bulk


I had this issue with my snow ex tailgate, threw a vibrator and it did a great job


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

To those who have used tailgate spreaders either in the past or currently, do they all do what Derek was describing and loose salt while they're not running? I'm not sure how tight my route will be now, and I don't want to loose a bag or more of melt every time I turn it off or am plowing.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

Do not waste your time with a tailgate. I ran bulk with a tailgate for a couple years saltdogg tgs06. I made it work, but I was often stuck hand throwing because the schute was clogged. It had a door to keep the salt in when driving, but sometimes you couldn't close the door. I once lost a whole hopper of salt down a dirt road. I now have a snowex 3000, I love it and will never go back to a tailgate. The tailgate weight is way behind the rear axle, the v box is over the axle. Put a small plow and a small v box on your half ton, load accordingly. Next year get a bigger truck and the half ton becomes backup. Sounds like your ready to move into a truck and let employees do your snowblowing. While I run superdutys, I love the visibility the smaller spreader allows. I fill up multiple times a night, but I'm OK with that.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Freshwater;2146468 said:


> Do not waste your time with a tailgate. I ran bulk with a tailgate for a couple years saltdogg tgs06. I made it work, but I was often stuck hand throwing because the schute was clogged. It had a door to keep the salt in when driving, but sometimes you couldn't close the door. I once lost a whole hopper of salt down a dirt road. I now have a snowex 3000, I love it and will never go back to a tailgate. The tailgate weight is way behind the rear axle, the v box is over the axle. Put a small plow and a small v box on your half ton, load accordingly. Next year get a bigger truck and the half ton becomes backup. Sounds like your ready to move into a truck and let employees do your snowblowing. While I run superdutys, I love the visibility the smaller spreader allows. I fill up multiple times a night, but I'm OK with that.


My 2-3 year plan (depending on the snowfall and how much money having a truck adds to the business) is to do just that. I'll look for a 1 ton. Probably flat bed or dump bed to use in the summer also. I'll get a newer plow and use that as my main truck for winter. I have a snowex dealer about 5 minutes or less from me. I'll check out their smaller v boxes. There's also a few newer ones on CL due to lack of 2 winters now. I might check some of those out and just not fill them so I can use them on the bigger truck.

I'm still working a few things out. I've realized lately how little I know about this business other than doing walks. I know what we can handle there, but not with the bigger equipment. Its hard for me to invest thousands without knowing what the payout might be...


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

https://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/cto/5677196635.html


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

JMHConstruction;2145491 said:


> To those who have used tailgate spreaders either in the past or currently, do they all do what Derek was describing and loose salt while they're not running? I'm not sure how tight my route will be now, and I don't want to loose a bag or more of melt every time I turn it off or am plowing.


I've only had/run a Meyer 350s TGS and it does just fine for lots up to 2acres<>. It'll run bulk (Ice Slicer), 50/50 Sand Mix and pelletized bag Ice Melt. 
You only load the hopper what and when you going to spread. Driving around with it load compacts the material causing bridging , material can also freeze depending on moisture content/temps, fine material can fall oot, and you have a lot of weight hanging/bouncing oot there which can lead to fatigue/damage to the spreader.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

You don't want to use bulk with a TLG spreader, I would buy a pallet and load as needed. Keep a full pallet on the truck and get another one as needed. I don't recall losing salt while traveling. This one did not have a gate tho just a auger.

I don't own any 1/2 ton trucks, I do know I see a lot of them out there these days plowing.


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