# should employees pay for damage?



## turbo5560 (Apr 6, 2007)

As the title states, should employees pay for damage? I'm not talking turf damage but vehicle damage? I had a employee plowing in my truck one night and backed into a car. No damage to the truck, but did do $1,600 worth of damage to the car. Would you take the money out of the subs pay or would you eat it? My deductible is $1,000 and in my opinion isn't worth turning the claim in. What would you do?


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## Indy (Sep 23, 2007)

I am not sure legally but I don't think you can with hold his pay. You could ask him to pay the $1800 or pay the $1000 that would be you deduct able or if you like him split it and tell him not to do it again..........

JMHO


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## show-n-go (Feb 5, 2009)

how long has the employee been with you? 
is he an otherwise good employee?
did he tell you right away or did you have to find out some other way?

these are questions i ask myself when i've been put into this situation.
if he is a decent employee and has been with you for a while it would be very fair of you to split the cost. thats a tough call


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

You better have a signed form allowing that deduction. If you don't, you could be in a world of hurt. 

Stuff happens when you're plowing, it's only a matter of time before something is damaged. That's why you have insurance.

If it starts to become a frequent occurrence, then you need to train better or fire him\her.


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## onemanshow (Sep 19, 2008)

As he being one of your employees I don't think legally you can make him pay.


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## augerandblade (Jan 17, 2009)

If hes a money maker for you, dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.


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## snowplowchick (Feb 22, 2008)

I don't think you can legally.

We have had four incidents that could have been put through insurance this year already but we have/are planning to pay for the damages ourselves to keep insurance from skyrocketing more than it already has.

All caused by workers, the most expensive was a hydro pole and all new cable(main line) estimated at 25K plus loss of hydro for the business, and the guy was seen getting out and hiding the damage by covering it with snow! 


Swallow the cost yourself and get rid of him if you have other problems with him.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

snowplowchick;749027 said:


> I don't think you can legally.
> 
> We have had four incidents that could have been put through insurance this year already but we have/are planning to pay for the damages ourselves to keep insurance from skyrocketing more than it already has.
> 
> ...


Dang, and I thought my $8K transformer was bad. I was fortunate enough that he decided plowing wasn't for him.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

If you think a $1000 dollar insurance claim is un justified, you may want to compare that to a lawsuit and penalties from your state. You can not under any circumstance ask or force an _employee_ to pay for anything. If the guy has half a brain he would be seeing dollar signs as you dripple out all the reasons why he should pay. Frustrating I know, but it's just not worth the risk.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

turbo5560;748984 said:


> As the title states, should employees pay for damage? I'm not talking turf damage but vehicle damage? I had a employee plowing in my truck one night and backed into a car. No damage to the truck, but did do $1,600 worth of damage to the car. Would you take the money out of the subs pay or would you eat it? My deductible is $1,000 and in my opinion isn't worth turning the claim in. What would you do?


If he is an employee you can NOT make him pay for the damages. If he is a Sub then the damages is on him and he has to pay for it. Here is an eassy way to figure it out. Was he driving your truck under your insurance? If the answer is yes then he is an employee and you can not make him pay for it. You can fire him, but not pay for the damage. If he is a sub and driving his own truck with his own insurance then he is responsible and it falls under his insurance and he would either have to pay out of pocket or file a claim with his insurance. Now if you left him drive his truck under your insurance then you have to pay and you can not make him pay. pretty simple. Just by reading the above statement you called him an employee and a sub. he cant be both.


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## turbo5560 (Apr 6, 2007)

Well i think i take the side of most of you. I thought that i would just have to eat it, but so many people have told me that he should pay for it. I know that I have broken things in the past and my employer has paid for it. It wasn't $1,600.... but still.


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## augerandblade (Jan 17, 2009)

Re Read the thread, LOL most of us say its not legally advisable.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

I was about to say........That damn statement just doesn't make any sense!


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## Plowfast9957 (Feb 14, 2005)

turbo5560;749156 said:


> Well i think i take the side of most of you. I thought that i would just have to eat it, but so many people have told me that he should pay for it. I know that I have broken things in the past and my employer has paid for it. It wasn't $1,600.... but still.


I think what everyone is saying is that you do have to eat it.


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## ahoron (Jan 22, 2007)

You could try to get him to pay but he could also say he hurt his back in the crash. Then, get a workmans comp case. It's the cost of doing business make sure next time he causes more damage so it's easier to make a claim on your insurance


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## TurfSolutionsMN (Dec 12, 2007)

I would have to go with "BurkartsPlow" on this one


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## ahoron (Jan 22, 2007)

Michigan law 

Any deduction required by law (i.e. taxes, friend of the court payments) and union dues. All other deductions require the employer to get your signed authorization before the deduction is made. The employer is required to itemize deductions on your pay stub.


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## Dustball (Dec 5, 2008)

turbo5560;748984 said:


> As the title states, should employees pay for damage? I'm not talking turf damage but vehicle damage? I had a employee plowing in my truck one night and backed into a car. No damage to the truck, but did do $1,600 worth of damage to the car. Would you take the money out of the subs pay or would you eat it? My deductible is $1,000 and in my opinion isn't worth turning the claim in. What would you do?


From your state's Dept of Labor-

http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-27673_32352-184088--,00.html



> Can an employer withhold wages for disciplinary action?
> 
> Agency: Energy, Labor & Economic Growth
> 
> No, an employer can not withhold wages for disciplinary action. All earned wages are required to be paid on the scheduled pay date. Note: employers are required to deduct certain deductions as required by law or permitted through a collective bargaining agreement. Deductions, other than those required by law or collective bargaining agreement, require the employees signed written consent for the deduction.


http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-27673_32352-41936--,00.html



> Can my employer withhold my paycheck from me?
> 
> Agency: Energy, Labor & Economic Growth
> 
> No, with the exception of written authorization provided by the employee.


Basically from the way I read it- unless you have a written authorization prior to any damages occurring stating that the employee is responsible for reimbursing you , you can't go after your employee.


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## fordboy (Nov 24, 2005)

I say if he was driving your truck youare responsible. If he was a sub in his truck he is required to carry his own commercial auto insurance. It sucks you pay because of his mistake but that is part of doing business and why we pay insurance.


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## turbo5560 (Apr 6, 2007)

no i totally agree with everyone... the only reason i ask is that i have had about 5 people locally say "well why not take it out of his pay..." just wanted to make sure i was thinking straight


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## Dub's Shrubs (Oct 28, 2006)

That is why we all pay out our u no whats. because we all know that we can never find the best or the smartest employees. lol


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## ADLAWNCUTTERS (May 24, 2001)

Suck it up and just pay the damages.Its just the cost of doing business.I know a guy who had to pay approx 20,000 in damages out of his pocket this year.Just be THANKFULL he didn,t hit a person.


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## nicksplowing (Oct 5, 2005)

*all i can say is its part of business *


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

turbo5560;749495 said:


> no i totally agree with everyone... the only reason i ask is that i have had about 5 people locally say "well why not take it out of his pay..." just wanted to make sure i was thinking straight


Coming from Holland, I'm not surprised. Bunch of tightwad Hollanders over there. 

Did you bother to ask them of the legality of it? Or did they just say "screw the law, make 'em pay"?


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;749731 said:


> Coming from Holland, I'm not surprised. Bunch of tightwad Hollanders over there.
> 
> Did you bother to ask them of the legality of it? Or did they just say "screw the law, make 'em pay"?


Isn't "Going Dutch" having him pay his share and you pay your share?

As stated by everyone, you can't.


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## Swampy (Feb 3, 2009)

Did your Employee have all the bell and whistles going? I got into a accident when I was plowing for my employer in his SuperDuty. I was backing up and this guy in a Grand Am pulled directly behind me not seeing him I almost ran him over monster truck style in reverse. I had a cop come to write up the accident report as the only seen damage to the truck was the passenger side mirror pulled apart (old west coast mirror) but the guy tried to race into a parking stall. 

Anyways with report in hand the cop basically told me since I had all the alarms and lights warning drivers of my presence I wasn't legally at fault for anything and that most insurance companies will read the report and deny a payout for the guy's car cause he acted like a idiot. 

Also you can't with hold a paycheck. But you can write off on your taxes as a loss.


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## ServiceOnSite (Nov 23, 2006)

so far im in it for a fender and about 4 mirriors. But that has only cost me about 2 grand. I have made way more than that off of them so i just pay it. that person has not however gotten the company paid for jackets or gym membership. and he also feels that he owes me time so i guess it will all work out


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

*What about paying with his/her time?*

What about making the employee that does some damage, "work it off" instead of taking money out of their pay?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

redman6565;750655 said:


> What about making the employee that does some damage, "work it off" instead of taking money out of their pay?


Once again, that might be OK, as long as it's agreed upon and doesn't run afoul of and DOL regs.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

ya but has anyone done it? do you make them sign a contract prior to the year starting for obligation purposes?


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## ogdenflooring (Jan 5, 2009)

fordboy;749482 said:


> I say if he was driving your truck youare responsible. If he was a sub in his truck he is required to carry his own commercial auto insurance. It sucks you pay because of his mistake but that is part of doing business and why we pay insurance.


I agree, employee= your responsibility
sub= his responsibility


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

redman6565;750664 said:


> ya but has anyone done it? do you make them sign a contract prior to the year starting for obligation purposes?


I know of a local lowballer who was requiring equipment operators to pay for any damage they caused while operating HIS equipment.

So there are ways around it, but how stupid, we're all human, we make mistakes it's part of doing business.

But then again, at what this asshat charges, he has to cut\eliminate his costs somehow.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

true true, i'm not a stickler, just asking is all


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## 03Hemi (Feb 12, 2009)

*I need advise*

WOW am I glad I found this thread. Here's my story, I'll keep it short and to the point. My boss is charging me $350.03 for a hydraulic cylinder on a rear plow blade that I bent from backing over the rear blade this winter. He has been deducting $50 from each of my checks since the incident. When the incident occurred he mentioned something about how it was going to cost me, but I didn't know he meant that it would literally come out of my paycheck. I didn't think this was fair because the truck had issues where the blade would randomly not lift without warning, but that's not the point of this thread. After reading this thread it sounds pretty obvious to me that what he is doing to me is illegal. What should I do?


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## CityGuy (Dec 19, 2008)

03Hemi;750906 said:


> WOW am I glad I found this thread. Here's my story, I'll keep it short and to the point. My boss is charging me $350.03 for a hydraulic cylinder on a rear plow blade that I bent from backing over the rear blade this winter. He has been deducting $50 from each of my checks since the incident. When the incident occurred he mentioned something about how it was going to cost me, but I didn't know he meant that it would literally come out of my paycheck. I didn't think this was fair because the truck had issues where the blade would randomly not lift without warning, but that's not the point of this thread. After reading this thread it sounds pretty obvious to me that what he is doing to me is illegal. What should I do?


Just show him this:

http://www.michigan.gov/dleg/0,1607,7-154-27673_32352-184088--,00.html


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Everyone is correct.

I had my lawyer check into doing this for my business.

What I wanted to do was to OVERPAY my employees but hold them financially accountable for equipment and property damages.

That is not legal. You cannot hold an employees payroll for much unless its court required.

Ill bet most people dont realize, you cannot hold an employees last paycheck waiting to have your property returned.

When I fired an employee or he quit I would always hold the last check and when the cellphone, uniforms, and keys were returned, then I would give it to him.

Well one guy was a real jerk and told me he "lost the phone". So I went to verizon, bought the exact same phone as a replacement, deducted that amount from his last paycheck and gave him the rest.

Well a week later I get a certified letter from the department of labor to appear on a date and time at a local office for a "payroll dispute hearing"

Figuring I was totally justified, I went to it. 

I brought the paper that he signed when I issued the phone which stated by him accepting the phone he is responsible for it and is liable to pay for replacement if it is lost or damaged via cash or payroll deduction.

I brought the original receipt for the phone I gave him, which was only 3 weeks old when I fired him. I brought the receipt for the replacement phone.

I also brought the "contracts" that were signed by all of the employees for their phones to show that I was consistent.

I walked in pretty darn confident that it was just going to show this guy is a scumbag.

Well........Not so much

My argument to the DOL was that he signed and agreed to the deal when I gave him the phone.

I showed them all my paperwork, and their reply......"You cannot have someone sign something that gives you permission to violate the law"

So I had to give him the rest of the money. And I ate the cost of the phone.
They were nice enough to "waive" the fine and penalties and put my company on 1 year department of labor probation during which time if there was another complaint, it would be taken much more seriously.

So the scumbag won....and i paid.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

If you want to hold your employees accountable for damage and such, here is how to do it legally.

You do it in the form of a bonus. And make sure you have a written policy that each employee signs stipulating exactly how the bonus works.

What I do is pay a little less per hour than I would normally as their regular pay.

I have a "point system" set up. Careful to keep it a point system and not a "dollar system"

They start off with 500 points..

If they cause property damage it works like this.

1-300 dollars is 200 points
301-600 400 points.

Not exactly my system but you get the point. I do it in a range and not dollar for dollar point value because then you;re walking the "payroll" line again.


Now I also offer the other side.

If they come in under their budgeted times on a job, they get points for that. If they save the company money, points for that. If they have perfect attendance, points for that.

So each quarter that point number is fluid. It goes up and down based on their performance.

If they show up everyday, do their job, and dont damage anything. They get 500 points automatically.

Do bad stuff, lose points.
Good stuff, get more points.

Then at the end of the quarter they can take those points and trade them for paid days off, or trade them for dollars.

They get the opportunity to make more money than they would if I only paid them hourly, and I get the benefit of having less breakdowns and more dependable employees.

Its a very simple system, i hope i didnt complicate it too much.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

03Hemi;750906 said:


> WOW am I glad I found this thread. Here's my story, I'll keep it short and to the point. My boss is charging me $350.03 for a hydraulic cylinder on a rear plow blade that I bent from backing over the rear blade this winter. He has been deducting $50 from each of my checks since the incident. When the incident occurred he mentioned something about how it was going to cost me, but I didn't know he meant that it would literally come out of my paycheck. I didn't think this was fair because the truck had issues where the blade would randomly not lift without warning, but that's not the point of this thread. After reading this thread it sounds pretty obvious to me that what he is doing to me is illegal. What should I do?


Show him the link or tell him you're going to contact DOL regarding the legality of doing this.

Then ask for what he owes you.


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## rebelplow (Jan 30, 2008)

I can't believe that you even considered docking his wages for the screw up. YOU are the BOSS. YOU eat the LOSS. It is all part of running a business. Everyone wants to own a successful plowing business for the REWARDS.... money, nice truck, etc..... but it also involves RISK. If you can't afford to eat the loss, or pay the deductible, perhaps you should consider being an EMPLOYEE for someone who can run a business AND take the risk.


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## rebelplow (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh yeah, even if it was turf / curb damage. IF he is your employee... You should PAY him in the spring to fix the damaged things if you do the work in-house.


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

procut1;750968 said:


> If you want to hold your employees accountable for damage and such, here is how to do it legally.
> 
> You do it in the form of a bonus. And make sure you have a written policy that each employee signs stipulating exactly how the bonus works.
> 
> ...


No matter how you word it your deducting money via points from the employee if they damage anything. Points equal money based on your post. I would bet if you were called to the labor board you would also lose.


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## Wesley's Lawn (Sep 18, 2002)

I think what he means is, if you don't screw up you get a bonus if you you screw up you don't. Your not deducting anything that way.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Joe D;751049 said:


> No matter how you word it your deducting money via points from the employee if they damage anything. Points equal money based on your post. I would bet if you were called to the labor board you would also lose.


Nope. This way is perfectly legal. When i wrote the policy I sent it to the DOL and requested a letter stating the legality of it. I was not going to get in trouble again.

Wages cannot be messed with.

A bonus, be it dollars or points can be.

You just need a written policy as to how your bonus system works.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

procut1;750968 said:


> If you want to hold your employees accountable for damage and such, here is how to do it legally.
> 
> You do it in the form of a bonus. And make sure you have a written policy that each employee signs stipulating exactly how the bonus works.
> 
> ...


I do applaud you on having some kind of bonus system in place. But why would you bonus someone who shows up for work everyday and does his job right? Isn't this a basic requirement to keep one's job? You're very generous to give someone "extra credit" for something that should be expected.

You could raise the bar a little and reward actions and behavior that goes above and beyond what they should be doing already.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

rebelplow;750993 said:


> I can't believe that you even considered docking his wages for the screw up. YOU are the BOSS. YOU eat the LOSS. It is all part of running a business. Everyone wants to own a successful plowing business for the REWARDS.... money, nice truck, etc..... but it also involves RISK. If you can't afford to eat the loss, or pay the deductible, perhaps you should consider being an EMPLOYEE for someone who can run a business AND take the risk.


obviously you are an employee or an owner that doesn't know jack about operating a successful business. you know nothing about profit margins and what it takes to keep a business afloat in these hard economis times.


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## rebelplow (Jan 30, 2008)

redman6565;752032 said:


> obviously you are an employee or an owner that doesn't know jack about operating a successful business. you know nothing about profit margins and what it takes to keep a business afloat in these hard economis times.


Obviously you must be right 

You are also a quick study.... if you aren't an employee, you must be an owner or vice versa. You've got it figured out that I'm not just a homeowner cruising the site. In my case it's keeping a low overhead, 2 mil insurance, well maintained equipment, tight control on quality, and a healthy bottom line.

If you think you have a big enough company to warrant having employees, then you need to figure in some loss/damage into your equation when computing your profit margins. Accidents happen, it's a cost of doing business.

I suppose you also make your employees pay for teeth that break off your excavator bucket when you are ripping frost, or for a cutting edge that wears down. How bout that brake job on the company truck your employees drive. I can hear it already... 'You've never driven this truck before, but today you were driving the 10 year truck and the brakes went out. This is coming out of your paycheck employee, I can't afford to put brakes in the company truck that I own, because it will cut into my bottom line!' 

Also, the money is out there, you just need to go find it in these hard economic times.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

redman6565;752032 said:


> obviously you are an employee or an owner that doesn't know jack about operating a successful business. you know nothing about profit margins and what it takes to keep a business afloat in these hard economis times.


it don't sound like you do either....

simple fact of the matter is. if you put them behind the wheel of truck with your business name on it. you should trust that person enough represent your business well. and when something happens that same business should stand behind him/her.

I have guys that work for me, and i will not let them drive my business trucks to pick up parts on dry roads, so there is no way there plowing snow for me...... I have one guy that has company truck, he lets me know when it need oil changed, tires, brakes, inspected, tags. I pay for parts once he is off the clock he puts what is needed on the truck. (i'd pay him but says it "his part of having a company truck" he keeps it clean and pays for fuel in it. His truck is best taken care of truck we have.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

TCLA;751313 said:


> I do applaud you on having some kind of bonus system in place. But why would you bonus someone who shows up for work everyday and does his job right? Isn't this a basic requirement to keep one's job? You're very generous to give someone "extra credit" for something that should be expected.
> 
> You could raise the bar a little and reward actions and behavior that goes above and beyond what they should be doing already.


The reason for that is the automatic "points" would be comparable to what I would normally pay if they just worked hourly without a bonus system in place.

Just using numbers as an example.

Instead of paying 11 an hour. I pay 10 an hour and 1 per hour in points redeemable.

So if they are a good employee, do their job, dont break things, but dont necessarily put any extra effort into thier job, they still get reasonably compensated for that.

The guys that really put in effort and push for the company, theyre the ones that make the nice sized bonus.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Your points system and not paying them their full hourly wage doesn't seem right.

The first thought that came to mind was at the end of the year or when every you pay out the "bonus", that will increase the amount of taxes taken out. It might put them into a higher tax bracket and cause even more to be taken out.

A bounus is a bounus. It's not "here is a check for the rest of your hourly wage that I didn't pay you during the year and kept for my self until now."

A bounus is for something extra. It is not a check at the end of the year for showing up for work and doing your job.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

RODHALL;752669 said:


> it don't sound like you do either....
> 
> simple fact of the matter is. if you put them behind the wheel of truck with your business name on it. you should trust that person enough represent your business well. and when something happens that same business should stand behind him/her.
> 
> I have guys that work for me, and i will not let them drive my business trucks to pick up parts on dry roads, so there is no way there plowing snow for me...... I have one guy that has company truck, he lets me know when it need oil changed, tires, brakes, inspected, tags. I pay for parts once he is off the clock he puts what is needed on the truck. (i'd pay him but says it "his part of having a company truck" he keeps it clean and pays for fuel in it. His truck is best taken care of truck we have.


yep...you're absolutely right, i know nothing about running a business


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

rebelplow;752230 said:


> Obviously you must be right
> 
> You are also a quick study.... if you aren't an employee, you must be an owner or vice versa. You've got it figured out that I'm not just a homeowner cruising the site. In my case it's keeping a low overhead, 2 mil insurance, well maintained equipment, tight control on quality, and a healthy bottom line.
> 
> ...


yep and i make them pay for broken grease lines too


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