# Is plowing really that hard?



## ConnerM

To see were im coming from go to thread Partnerships vs doing it alone. So Im hoping to do some subcontracting work this winter. Im imagining all i have to do is have a plow truck and insurance and i should be good to go right? As im typing this feel like there should be more to it then this like i might be missing alot. Im not talking about becoming an LLC or having my own contracts because im just subbing with no other work on the side. Is there something im missing here.
I feel like sub contracting should be a good way to make decent money and get the hang of thing while not dealing with the headache of having 30 seperate contracts for small residential houses. I was hoping to have a mentor who is very actively involved in the plowing buisness to ask many questions to and in person to cover all bases becuase the last thing i want is to invest in equipment and get insurance and have something catostrophic happen that wrecks everything. AM I OVER COMPLICATING THINGS or do i have the right to be so worried?


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## BossPlow2010

If you want to sub, you best get insurance. Some places require 1 mil some 2 I'm sure some require more.


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## Dogplow Dodge

ConnerM;1489284 said:


> . I was hoping to have a mentor who is very actively involved in the plowing buisness............ or *do i have to be so worried?*


You need a mentor ???

Grandview is available. He does nothing all winter long but collect all of his "seasonal" paychecks.....

Fly him out, buy him a few drinks, dinner ??, and maybe you'll get a "little".......

Mentoring......:laughing:


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## grandview

1st your really not a sub if your plowing with someone else truck. Insurance is to protect you, not the contractor you'll be subbing for. I'm assuming you never plowed before? Maybe this season see if you can ride along and be a gopher for someone and maybe they'll let you plow a few times to see if you like it or not. Plowing is not for everyone.


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## 2COR517

You don't strike me as the type to overcomplicate things


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## ConnerM

I Cantrell if your being sarcastic or not but either way I just wanted to see some numbers and another persons set up in person instead of online


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## basher

Join SIMA take some of their classes attend some of the symposiums or trade shows that are held across the country. If you are going to run your own truck; yes it will need commercial insurance, yes you will need to claim it on your taxes, yes you should have liability insurance to protect yourself, yes devoted winter tires are best, yes two batteries are better but you only need one. Yes plowing is hard on the front end, the extra weight on axle bearings and load points consent steering resistance on steering components, yes timbrens help, yes you should carry a counter weight, yes you need contracts, yes wing/Vee blades are more productive, no you don't have to have one, yes a blinky light is important, yes markers are good, no you should not pile snow in front of non-paying driveways, yes you are on call 24/7 10/1though 4/15, yes 3/4 ton or better trucks with plow prep are best but 1/2 ton will work, no there is no law you have to buy Fisher in Maine, Trip edges do not save transmissions, full trip vees will trip but not as well a a trip edge, only Snoway has down pressure, Douglass Dynamics owns fisher, western, blizzard, Yes you plow on Christmas, salt is better then sand unless the temps drop into the teens, yes liquids are best for pre application, not they don't replace solids in all situations, yes back up cameras help, yes a deflector is a good thing, yes you should carry extra parts, including a shovel and tow strap. Yes you can "short chain" a direct lift, direct lift is faster to respond than a chain lift, yes Fishers and Meyer are Yellow, Boss and Western are Red, Snoway Black (or clear,) Blizzard blades are white, Yes a speedwing is bad to the bone, yes Palmer hates the Fisher Hinge pin, B&B (who pretty much jumped ship) is good with Boss and Chevy, Yes some winters suck, Seasonal contracts should be for 3 years or more, yes you should mix seasonal and per storm contracts. I know I missed things however I'm out of time but that's a start on snowplowing in a nutshell


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## BossPlow2010

basher;1489375 said:


> Join SIMA take some of their classes attend some of the symposiums or trade shows that are held across the country. If you are going to run your own truck; yes it will need commercial insurance, yes you will need to claim it on your taxes, yes you should have liability insurance to protect yourself, yes devoted winter tires are best, yes two batteries are better but you only need one. Yes plowing is hard on the front end, the extra weight on axle bearings and load points consent steering resistance on steering components, yes timbrens help, yes you should carry a counter weight, yes you need contracts, yes wing/Vee blades are more productive, no you don't have to have one, yes a blinky light is important, yes markers are good, no you should not pile snow in front of non-paying driveways, yes you are on call 24/7 10/1though 4/15, yes 3/4 ton or better trucks with plow prep are best but 1/2 ton will work, no there is no law you have to buy Fisher in Maine, Trip edges do not save transmissions, full trip vees will trip but not as well a a trip edge, only Snoway has down pressure, Douglass Dynamics owns fisher, western, blizzard, Yes you plow on Christmas, salt is better then sand unless the temps drop into the teens, yes liquids are best for pre application, not they don't replace solids in all situations, yes back up cameras help, yes a deflector is a good thing, yes you should carry extra parts, including a shovel and tow strap. Yes you can "short chain" a direct lift, direct lift is faster to respond than a chain lift, yes Fishers and Meyer are Yellow, Boss and Western are Red, Snoway Black (or clear,) Blizzard blades are white, Yes a speedwing is bad to the bone, yes Palmer hates the Fisher Hinge pin, B&B (who pretty much jumped ship) is good with Boss and Chevy, Yes some winters suck, Seasonal contracts should be for 3 years or more, yes you should mix seasonal and per storm contracts. I know I missed things however I'm out of time but that's a start on snowplowing in a nutshell


That's every question on this site in a nutshell :laughing:


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## B&B

BossPlow2010;1489381 said:


> That's every question on this site in a nutshell :laughing:


Except for the most common one- the great "shoes or not" question.


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## grandview

BossPlow2010;1489381 said:


> That's every question on this site in a nutshell :laughing:


Now what are we going to do?


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## Bossman 92

basher;1489375 said:


> Join SIMA take some of their classes attend some of the symposiums or trade shows that are held across the country. If you are going to run your own truck; yes it will need commercial insurance, yes you will need to claim it on your taxes, yes you should have liability insurance to protect yourself, yes devoted winter tires are best, yes two batteries are better but you only need one. Yes plowing is hard on the front end, the extra weight on axle bearings and load points consent steering resistance on steering components, yes timbrens help, yes you should carry a counter weight, yes you need contracts, yes wing/Vee blades are more productive, no you don't have to have one, yes a blinky light is important, yes markers are good, no you should not pile snow in front of non-paying driveways, yes you are on call 24/7 10/1though 4/15, yes 3/4 ton or better trucks with plow prep are best but 1/2 ton will work, no there is no law you have to buy Fisher in Maine, Trip edges do not save transmissions, full trip vees will trip but not as well a a trip edge, only Snoway has down pressure, Douglass Dynamics owns fisher, western, blizzard, Yes you plow on Christmas, salt is better then sand unless the temps drop into the teens, yes liquids are best for pre application, not they don't replace solids in all situations, yes back up cameras help, yes a deflector is a good thing, yes you should carry extra parts, including a shovel and tow strap. Yes you can "short chain" a direct lift, direct lift is faster to respond than a chain lift, yes Fishers and Meyer are Yellow, Boss and Western are Red, Snoway Black (or clear,) Blizzard blades are white, Yes a speedwing is bad to the bone, yes Palmer hates the Fisher Hinge pin, B&B (who pretty much jumped ship) is good with Boss and Chevy, Yes some winters suck, Seasonal contracts should be for 3 years or more, yes you should mix seasonal and per storm contracts. I know I missed things however I'm out of time but that's a start on snowplowing in a nutshell


Someone needs to make this a sticky! It should be manditory that before you can ask a question you have to read this first. :laughing:


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## cet

B&B;1489382 said:


> Except for the most common one- the great "shoes or not" question.


That was perfect.

And now they want to charge you extra for shoes. Never used them and never will.


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## dfd9

Should one hand file one's scraper edge or is an angle grinder OK?


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## 2COR517

I set the cutting edge angle with a grinder, finish up with hand file for a nice smooth surface


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## basher

Yes you should change your fluid every year, no you should not run ATF in any electric solenoid valve operated pump, a properly adjusted set of skid shoes will save on blade wear but result in lower psi loading across the scrape surface, use a gravel edge for gravel roads, all plows offer some form of drop speed adjustment, Ground and power directly from the battery, key the power supply to the controller, Back dragging a new wear edge about 100 yards will "set" the blade angle and reduce chattering, particularly important for poly, Caffeine is your friend, salt doesn't cause spalling poorly pour concrete does, Your not responsible for any lawn/landscaping that is not staked, yes you charge for stakes, to stack you simply continue to go forward while lifting the blade, the best way to remove the snow from in front of garage doors, dumpster, loading docks, etc is back dragging. yes you can wire extra reverse lights to work off both the reverse switch and a toggle on the dash, raise the blade as high as possible and angle for best cooling while traveling, always come to a complete stop before shifting the transmission, yes you still need insurance even if you are using your truck but plowing for someone else or just doing a couple driveways. Salt eats trucks, pre-coating with Fluid Film helps, Some chevy 2500HD need gussets, watch out for pump rub in others, dodge does pump fluid though the transmission in park so leave it in neutral while sitting still, the close your jobs are to one another the more time you spend with your blade on the ground making money, Fords have a ****** turning radius, under tailgate spreaders are the bomb on any size dump truck, Jeeps, short wheel base trucks, skid steers and tractors with blowers are best in driveways, If you drive for someone else in their vehicle you are and employee not a sub contractor, a good dealer is more important then the name of the plow, Don't work cheap the cost of operating in this business is greater then you think, Yes you should have a lawyer look at your contract, yes you should have a contract in the truck for the new customer, yes you need to keep log sheets, yes neighbor discounts are a good idea, flyers work but referrals are best, yes loud exhausts annoy the customer and their neighbors, beware of last minute calls that seem to good to be true, review national management group's contracts carefully and be aware of what you are signing, carry both a flat and pointed shovel, cary an extra pair of gloves or two, think about where you are gong to store snow, not just this storm but the ones to follow, Plow with the storm, you need a med card to cross state lines at 10,001 lbs combined, you need a CDL at 26,001 lbs combined, yes you can tow a trailer in the snow, Fisher and Meyer wear edges are interchangeable, as are fisher and western controllers. leveling kits raise the ride but don't increase the load capacity, counter weight goes behind the axle ballast goes anywhere, you need less counter weight than you do ballast, Not everything you hear on the internet is true, research the source before heeding someone's advice, Meyer has a particularly good section on how to move snow in the owner's manual available online, If you have a question try the search feature available in the forum menu, all these topics and more have been beaten to death, this is just a short synopsis.


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## Luther

ConnerM;1489284 said:


> AM I OVER COMPLICATING THINGS or do i have the right to be so worried?


First part no.

Second part yes.


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## grandview

Don't worry,be happy!


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## terrapro

Wow, I think Bashers replies should be a sticky!!!


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## Longae29

Best. Two. Posts. Ever.


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## grandview

Basher is just taking all the fun out of plowing


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## albhb3

and dont and i mean DONT forget the blinker fluid


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## Dogplow Dodge

basher;1489431 said:


> dodge does pump fluid though the transmission in park so leave it in neutral while sitting still,.


not in my truck.

I have the "518" in my 92, and it pumps nothing in park, but full flow in neutral.....

Oh, BTW....

Thank you for your above posts. Made my day..... just like Clint Eastwood talking to an empty chair....



Longae29;1489470 said:


> Best. Two. Posts. Ever.


Amen, Brother...... Posts of the "eternity", never mind the year.


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## B&B

basher;1489431 said:


> Yes you should change your fluid every year, no you should not run ATF in any electric solenoid valve operated pump, a properly adjusted set of skid shoes will save on blade wear but result in lower psi loading across the scrape surface, use a gravel edge for gravel roads, all plows offer some form of drop speed adjustment, Ground and power directly from the battery, key the power supply to the controller, Back dragging a new wear edge about 100 yards will "set" the blade angle and reduce chattering, particularly important for poly, Caffeine is your friend, salt doesn't cause spalling poorly pour concrete does, Your not responsible for any lawn/landscaping that is not staked, yes you charge for stakes, to stack you simply continue to go forward while lifting the blade, the best way to remove the snow from in front of garage doors, dumpster, loading docks, etc is back dragging. yes you can wire extra reverse lights to work off both the reverse switch and a toggle on the dash, raise the blade as high as possible and angle for best cooling while traveling, always come to a complete stop before shifting the transmission, yes you still need insurance even if you are using your truck but plowing for someone else or just doing a couple driveways. Salt eats trucks, pre-coating with Fluid Film helps, Some chevy 2500HD need gussets, watch out for pump rub in others, dodge does pump fluid though the transmission in park so leave it in neutral while sitting still, the close your jobs are to one another the more time you spend with your blade on the ground making money, Fords have a ****** turning radius, under tailgate spreaders are the bomb on any size dump truck, Jeeps, short wheel base trucks, skid steers and tractors with blowers are best in driveways, If you drive for someone else in their vehicle you are and employee not a sub contractor, a good dealer is more important then the name of the plow, Don't work cheap the cost of operating in this business is greater then you think, Yes you should have a lawyer look at your contract, yes you should have a contract in the truck for the new customer, yes you need to keep log sheets, yes neighbor discounts are a good idea, flyers work but referrals are best, yes loud exhausts annoy the customer and their neighbors, beware of last minute calls that seem to good to be true, review national management group's contracts carefully and be aware of what you are signing, carry both a flat and pointed shovel, cary an extra pair of gloves or two, think about where you are gong to store snow, not just this storm but the ones to follow, Plow with the storm, you need a med card to cross state lines at 10,001 lbs combined, you need a CDL at 26,001 lbs combined, yes you can tow a trailer in the snow, Fisher and Meyer wear edges are interchangeable, as are fisher and western controllers. leveling kits raise the ride but don't increase the load capacity, counter weight goes behind the axle ballast goes anywhere, you need less counter weight than you do ballast, Not everything you hear on the internet is true, research the source before heeding someone's advice, Meyer has a particularly good section on how to move snow in the owner's manual available online, If you have a question try the search feature available in the forum menu, all these topics and more have been beaten to death, this is just a short synopsis.


Better add a disclaimer just to be safe....

*No further purchase or obligation necessary, void where prohibited by law, any portion of these comments can not be duplicated or resold, quantities are limited while supplies last, limit one complimentary set per family please; Not intended for off-road use. Best if used before expiration date. One size fits all. Packaged by weight, not volume: some settling may occur. Not recommended for children under 12, Some assembly required. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. If condition persists, consult your doctor. **

**disclaimer does not cover misuse, accident, lightning, flood, tornado, tsunami, volcanic eruption, earthquake, hurricanes and other acts of God, neglect, damage from improper use, incorrect line voltage, improper or unauthorized application, missing or altered components, electromagnetic radiation from nuclear blasts, sonic boom vibrations, customer adjustments that are not covered in this list, and incidents owing to an airplane crash, ship sinking or taking on water, motor vehicle crashing, dropping the item, falling rocks, leaky roof, broken glass, mud slides, forest fire, or projectile (which can include, but not be limited to, arrows, bullets, BB's, shrapnel, lasers, napalm, torpedoes, or emissions of X-rays, Alpha, Beta and Gamma rays, knives, stones, etc.); You may also have additional rights which vary from state to state, other restrictions may apply.


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## maverjohn

X3 on the ear muffs!! Sound like Basher covered eveything and B&B filled in the some detail, so is the redbull all gone or is there more ?? LOL


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## BC Handyman

basher;1489375 said:


> Join SIMA take some of their classes attend some of the symposiums or trade shows that are held across the country. If you are going to run your own truck; yes it will need commercial insurance, yes you will need to claim it on your taxes, yes you should have liability insurance to protect yourself, yes devoted winter tires are best, yes two batteries are better but you only need one. Yes plowing is hard on the front end, the extra weight on axle bearings and load points consent steering resistance on steering components, yes timbrens help, yes you should carry a counter weight, yes you need contracts, yes wing/Vee blades are more productive, no you don't have to have one, yes a blinky light is important, yes markers are good, no you should not pile snow in front of non-paying driveways, yes you are on call 24/7 10/1though 4/15, yes 3/4 ton or better trucks with plow prep are best but 1/2 ton will work, no there is no law you have to buy Fisher in Maine, Trip edges do not save transmissions, full trip vees will trip but not as well a a trip edge, only Snoway has down pressure, Douglass Dynamics owns fisher, western, blizzard, Yes you plow on Christmas, salt is better then sand unless the temps drop into the teens, yes liquids are best for pre application, not they don't replace solids in all situations, yes back up cameras help, yes a deflector is a good thing, yes you should carry extra parts, including a shovel and tow strap. Yes you can "short chain" a direct lift, direct lift is faster to respond than a chain lift, yes Fishers and Meyer are Yellow, Boss and Western are Red, Snoway Black (or clear,) Blizzard blades are white, Yes a speedwing is bad to the bone, yes Palmer hates the Fisher Hinge pin, B&B (who pretty much jumped ship) is good with Boss and Chevy, Yes some winters suck, Seasonal contracts should be for 3 years or more, yes you should mix seasonal and per storm contracts. I know I missed things however I'm out of time but that's a start on snowplowing in a nutshell





basher;1489431 said:


> Yes you should change your fluid every year, no you should not run ATF in any electric solenoid valve operated pump, a properly adjusted set of skid shoes will save on blade wear but result in lower psi loading across the scrape surface, use a gravel edge for gravel roads, all plows offer some form of drop speed adjustment, Ground and power directly from the battery, key the power supply to the controller, Back dragging a new wear edge about 100 yards will "set" the blade angle and reduce chattering, particularly important for poly, Caffeine is your friend, salt doesn't cause spalling poorly pour concrete does, Your not responsible for any lawn/landscaping that is not staked, yes you charge for stakes, to stack you simply continue to go forward while lifting the blade, the best way to remove the snow from in front of garage doors, dumpster, loading docks, etc is back dragging. yes you can wire extra reverse lights to work off both the reverse switch and a toggle on the dash, raise the blade as high as possible and angle for best cooling while traveling, always come to a complete stop before shifting the transmission, yes you still need insurance even if you are using your truck but plowing for someone else or just doing a couple driveways. Salt eats trucks, pre-coating with Fluid Film helps, Some chevy 2500HD need gussets, watch out for pump rub in others, dodge does pump fluid though the transmission in park so leave it in neutral while sitting still, the close your jobs are to one another the more time you spend with your blade on the ground making money, Fords have a ****** turning radius, under tailgate spreaders are the bomb on any size dump truck, Jeeps, short wheel base trucks, skid steers and tractors with blowers are best in driveways, If you drive for someone else in their vehicle you are and employee not a sub contractor, a good dealer is more important then the name of the plow, Don't work cheap the cost of operating in this business is greater then you think, Yes you should have a lawyer look at your contract, yes you should have a contract in the truck for the new customer, yes you need to keep log sheets, yes neighbor discounts are a good idea, flyers work but referrals are best, yes loud exhausts annoy the customer and their neighbors, beware of last minute calls that seem to good to be true, review national management group's contracts carefully and be aware of what you are signing, carry both a flat and pointed shovel, cary an extra pair of gloves or two, think about where you are gong to store snow, not just this storm but the ones to follow, Plow with the storm, you need a med card to cross state lines at 10,001 lbs combined, you need a CDL at 26,001 lbs combined, yes you can tow a trailer in the snow, Fisher and Meyer wear edges are interchangeable, as are fisher and western controllers. leveling kits raise the ride but don't increase the load capacity, counter weight goes behind the axle ballast goes anywhere, you need less counter weight than you do ballast, Not everything you hear on the internet is true, research the source before heeding someone's advice, Meyer has a particularly good section on how to move snow in the owner's manual available online, If you have a question try the search feature available in the forum menu, all these topics and more have been beaten to death, this is just a short synopsis.


only 3 things to say to all that is
1 Wow Clap,clap, clap:salute:
2 a person could just sticky this & close the site, you answered all:laughing:
3 why should I not pile snow infront of nonpayers drives?


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## dfd9

terrapro;1489454 said:


> Wow, I think Bashers replies should be a sticky!!!


Stop encouraging him.


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## Plowtoy

basher;1489375 said:


> yes a blinky light is important


*Especially in Michigan*

Public Act 262
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(nh...g.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=2011-HB-4146

The Act amends the Michigan Vehicle Code to prohibit the operation of a commercial snow removal vehicle without a flashing or oscillating light, and designate a violation a misdemeanor.

Specifically, the bill would add Section 682c to prohibit a person from operating a commercial snow removal vehicle to remove snow or ice on a public street or highway or in a parking lot accessible for use by the public unless the vehicle were operated with at least one flashing, rotating, or oscillating yellow or amber light that was clearly visible in a 360-degree arc from a distance of 500 feet when in use. A person who leased a commercial snow removal vehicle could not knowingly allow a person to operate it in violation of these requirements.

A person who violated Section 682c would be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for up to 90 days and/or a maximum fine of $500.


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## Dogplow Dodge

Plowtoy;1489650 said:


> *Especially in Michigan*
> 
> Public Act 262
> http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(nh...g.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=2011-HB-4146
> 
> The Act amends the Michigan Vehicle Code to *prohibit the operation of a commercial snow removal vehicle without a flashing or oscillating light*, and designate a violation a misdemeanor.
> 
> Specifically, the bill would add Section 682c to prohibit a person from operating a commercial snow removal vehicle to remove snow or ice on a public street or highway or in a parking lot accessible for use by the public unless the vehicle were operated with at least one flashing, rotating, or oscillating yellow or amber light that was clearly visible in a 360-degree arc from a distance of 500 feet when in use. A person who leased a commercial snow removal vehicle could not knowingly allow a person to operate it in violation of these requirements.
> 
> A person who violated Section 682c would be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for up to 90 days and/or a maximum fine of $500.


Every state has their own laws..

In NJ we're not allowed to use an amber flashing light unless we get a special permit from each town we're plowing in. It's against the law to utilize a flashing light on your vehicle unless you are a fireman, first aid, or fuzz or township vehicle, or.... you have the special permits required by law.

No police enforce this as far as I've experienced,.... but its the law.


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## dfd9

Plowtoy;1489650 said:


> *Especially in Michigan*
> 
> Public Act 262
> http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(nh...g.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=2011-HB-4146
> 
> The Act amends the Michigan Vehicle Code to prohibit the operation of a commercial snow removal vehicle without a flashing or oscillating light, and designate a violation a misdemeanor.
> 
> Specifically, the bill would add Section 682c to prohibit a person from operating a commercial snow removal vehicle to remove snow or ice on a public street or highway or in a parking lot accessible for use by the public *unless the vehicle were operated with at least one flashing, rotating, or oscillating yellow or amber light that was clearly visible in a 360-degree arc from a distance of 500 feet when in use.* A person who leased a commercial snow removal vehicle could not knowingly allow a person to operate it in violation of these requirements.
> 
> A person who violated Section 682c would be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for up to 90 days and/or a maximum fine of $500.


Who's the ******* that wrote this law?

I really hope the verbage was altered, and is stated as it is for public safety vehicles. "Must be visible from 500 feet under normal conditions".

Because I can guarantee that there are many a time while plowing my blinky light is not visible from 500 feet.


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## Luther

This is a great thread! :salute:

BTW...did anyone get the memo that MJD is looking for 50 participants to join in on a private Boss plow discussion?


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## terrapro

Yeppers! Maybe i will join.


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## basher

dfd9;1489661 said:


> Who's the ******* that wrote this law?
> 
> I really hope the verbage was altered, and is stated as it is for public safety vehicles. "Must be visible from 500 feet under normal conditions".
> 
> Because I can guarantee that there are many a time while plowing my blinky light is not visible from 500 feet..


I had a professor once that said "too harsh a law is worse than no law at all" and "Laws are written to satisfy a committee and therefore deliberately open to interpretation."


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## basher

TCLA;1489665 said:


> This is a great thread! :salute:
> 
> BTW...did anyone get the memo that MJD is looking for 50 participants to join in on a private Boss plow discussion?





grandview;1489673 said:


> Only if you live in New Hampshire ,trying to move into Fisher territory


Market research people would call it a focus group.


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## Luther

MRP's are getting cheap...the focus groups I've been part of at least fed me and gave out dead presidents.


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## Banksy

Plowing is more of a PITA than it is "hard". 

Pedestrians, cars, parking lot islands, grocery carts, hidden obstacles, where to put the snow, what kind of snow is it (wet or powder), etc. It just gets very monotonous...for me anyway.


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## ConnerM

Feel free to visist another question i have posted on a realated topic. Just type Buying an existing buisness . Any imput is appreacaited


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## ken643

basher;1489375 said:


> Join SIMA take some of their classes attend some of the symposiums or trade shows that are held across the country. If you are going to run your own truck; yes it will need commercial insurance, yes you will need to claim it on your taxes, yes you should have liability insurance to protect yourself, yes devoted winter tires are best, yes two batteries are better but you only need one. Yes plowing is hard on the front end, the extra weight on axle bearings and load points consent steering resistance on steering components, yes timbrens help, yes you should carry a counter weight, yes you need contracts, yes wing/Vee blades are more productive, no you don't have to have one, yes a blinky light is important, yes markers are good, no you should not pile snow in front of non-paying driveways, yes you are on call 24/7 10/1though 4/15, yes 3/4 ton or better trucks with plow prep are best but 1/2 ton will work, no there is no law you have to buy Fisher in Maine, Trip edges do not save transmissions, full trip vees will trip but not as well a a trip edge, only Snoway has down pressure, Douglass Dynamics owns fisher, western, blizzard, Yes you plow on Christmas, salt is better then sand unless the temps drop into the teens, yes liquids are best for pre application, not they don't replace solids in all situations, yes back up cameras help, yes a deflector is a good thing, yes you should carry extra parts, including a shovel and tow strap. Yes you can "short chain" a direct lift, direct lift is faster to respond than a chain lift, yes Fishers and Meyer are Yellow, Boss and Western are Red, Snoway Black (or clear,) Blizzard blades are white, Yes a speedwing is bad to the bone, yes Palmer hates the Fisher Hinge pin, B&B (who pretty much jumped ship) is good with Boss and Chevy, Yes some winters suck, Seasonal contracts should be for 3 years or more, yes you should mix seasonal and per storm contracts. I know I missed things however I'm out of time but that's a start on snowplowing in a nutshell


Extremely WELL PUT!!! :salute:


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## tuney443

basher;1489670 said:


> I had a professor once that said "too harsh a law is worse than no law at all" and "Laws are written to satisfy a committee and therefore deliberately open to interpretation."


And I once did a demo job for a federal judge from NYC who very eloquently in his Irish brogue told me ''It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission''.This,after he asked me to do something highly illegal at his home.He didn't like my answer.


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## vintage steel

Thank you.
I now know everything there is to know about the plow biz!
Nothing left to do now except delete my plowsite account.

..Seriously though, excellent thread.


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## NickT

B&B you forgot batteries not included in the disclaimer!!! Great thread


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## Roundhammer

WOW.

Basher seems like one seasoned dude...and thanks to ConnerM for getting him going.

Made searching for all the answers in the actual forums WAYYYY easier 

That needs to go in the "READ THIS FIRST" section. LOL

Thanks again.

RH


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## KDB33

B&B;1489496 said:


> Better add a disclaimer just to be safe....
> 
> *No further purchase or obligation necessary, void where prohibited by law, any portion of these comments can not be duplicated or resold, quantities are limited while supplies last, limit one complimentary set per family please; Not intended for off-road use. Best if used before expiration date. One size fits all. Packaged by weight, not volume: some settling may occur. Not recommended for children under 12, Some assembly required. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. If condition persists, consult your doctor. **
> 
> **disclaimer does not cover misuse, accident, lightning, flood, tornado, tsunami, volcanic eruption, earthquake, hurricanes and other acts of God, neglect, damage from improper use, incorrect line voltage, improper or unauthorized application, missing or altered components, electromagnetic radiation from nuclear blasts, sonic boom vibrations, customer adjustments that are not covered in this list, and incidents owing to an airplane crash, ship sinking or taking on water, motor vehicle crashing, dropping the item, falling rocks, leaky roof, broken glass, mud slides, forest fire, or projectile (which can include, but not be limited to, arrows, bullets, BB's, shrapnel, lasers, napalm, torpedoes, or emissions of X-rays, Alpha, Beta and Gamma rays, knives, stones, etc.); You may also have additional rights which vary from state to state, other restrictions may apply.


B&B I know this is off the topic but I was wondering if I could get a set of gussets from you for my '07 CBCC duramax. I would have sent you a PM but but for some reason the system wont let me. Thanks


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## B&B

KDB33;1500011 said:


> B&B I know this is off the topic but I was wondering if I could get a set of gussets from you for my '07 CBCC duramax. I would have sent you a PM but but for some reason the system wont let me. Thanks


There's a ten post minimum here before you can PM. So you'll have to add some thoughts and opinions around the site first.


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## krashemall

B&B;1489496 said:


> Better add a disclaimer just to be safe....
> 
> *No further purchase or obligation necessary, void where prohibited by law, any portion of these comments can not be duplicated or resold, quantities are limited while supplies last, limit one complimentary set per family please; Not intended for off-road use. Best if used before expiration date. One size fits all. Packaged by weight, not volume: some settling may occur. Not recommended for children under 12, Some assembly required. Use only as directed. No other warranty expressed or implied. If condition persists, consult your doctor. **
> 
> **disclaimer does not cover misuse, accident, lightning, flood, tornado, tsunami, volcanic eruption, earthquake, hurricanes and other acts of God, neglect, damage from improper use, incorrect line voltage, improper or unauthorized application, missing or altered components, electromagnetic radiation from nuclear blasts, sonic boom vibrations, customer adjustments that are not covered in this list, and incidents owing to an airplane crash, ship sinking or taking on water, motor vehicle crashing, dropping the item, falling rocks, leaky roof, broken glass, mud slides, forest fire, or projectile (which can include, but not be limited to, arrows, bullets, BB's, shrapnel, lasers, napalm, torpedoes, or emissions of X-rays, Alpha, Beta and Gamma rays, knives, stones, etc.); You may also have additional rights which vary from state to state, other restrictions may apply.


and then there is the "for external use only and not for children, pregnant women and people sensitive to caffine"

Thanks for that info nicely "cliff notes versioned" from some seasoned members that have added a lot to this site. You guys rock. :yow!:


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## bigthom

ok over the years that i have plowed i have done it on my own, sub contracting, partnerships. the biggest issues with subbing is that one make sure u got damn good insurance. two make sure you have your contract with who ever you are subbing with set. ( make sure everything u want is covered in it) and three make sure it is someone you can trust to pay you. i liked subbing a lot because your not worried bout phone calls from everyone. just one person. its simple and a good way to make money. i however figured if someone can pay me to plow and still make money off it I can deal with some phone calls here and there to make even more.... ( call me greedy but i got a family to take care of and I want the biggest bang for the buck.) thats why i am not subbing this year. i have some people who will call me in a pinch but im on my own this year. hope it works well again for me.


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## RayMich

Plowtoy;1489650 said:


> *Especially in Michigan*
> 
> Public Act 262
> http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(nh...g.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=2011-HB-4146
> 
> The Act amends the Michigan Vehicle Code to prohibit the operation of a commercial snow removal vehicle without a flashing or oscillating light, and designate a violation a misdemeanor.
> 
> Specifically, the bill would add Section 682c to prohibit a person from operating a commercial snow removal vehicle to remove snow or ice on a public street or highway or in a parking lot accessible for use by the public unless the vehicle were operated with *at least one flashing, rotating, or oscillating yellow or amber light that was clearly visible in a 360-degree arc from a distance of 500 feet when in use.* A person who leased a commercial snow removal vehicle could not knowingly allow a person to operate it in violation of these requirements.
> 
> *A person who violated Section 682c would be guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for up to 90 days and/or a maximum fine of $500*.


The thing that really SUCKS is that if for some reason your rotating amber light goes out, you are all of a sudden guilty of a misdemeanor. They have made this a freakin' CRIMINAL OFFENSE punishable by prison time and/or a $500 fine.

How many other obstacles are they going to throw out to force people out of business? This is getting insane!


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## mcwlandscaping

RayMich;1506846 said:


> The thing that really SUCKS is that if for some reason your rotating amber light goes out, you are all of a sudden guilty of a misdemeanor. They have made this a freakin' CRIMINAL OFFENSE punishable by prison time and/or a $500 fine.
> 
> How many other obstacles are they going to throw out to force people out of business? This is getting insane!


if anything pull people over to check their GL insurance....and also if they are lowballing they go straight to jail without passing GO! Thumbs Up


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## leolkfrm

i think you forgot...once it gets cold ...dont plan on sleeping between 1 and 8 am...you will need to watch the weather!


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## RayMich

mcwlandscaping;1506919 said:


> if anything pull people over to check their GL insurance....and also if they are lowballing they go straight to jail without passing GO! Thumbs Up


OK, Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by 'GL insurance' and 'lowballing'?

I do have business insurance and the truck is insured as a plow truck with $1,000,000 liability coverage.

I am faily new at this business, so all constructive advice is very much appreciated...

Thanks.


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## Plowtoy

RayMich;1506976 said:


> OK, Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by 'GL insurance' and 'lowballing'?
> 
> I do have business insurance and the truck is insured as a plow truck with $1,000,000 liability coverage.
> 
> I am faily new at this business, so all constructive advice is very much appreciated...
> 
> Thanks.


General Liability insurance. I don't believe in Michigan that the law can make you have GL insurance, but its definitely a good Idea. You have vehicle Liability so if you hit something or someone while your out plowing your covered. GL is for after you leave the site, and somebody slips and falls, or has a crash because you didn't do your job. 
Low-balling=someone who under bid a job just to get it. However, prices really depend on several factors so low-balling can have lots of meanings.


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## RayMich

Plowtoy;1507015 said:


> General Liability insurance. I don't believe in Michigan that the law can make you have GL insurance, but its definitely a good Idea. You have vehicle Liability so if you hit something or someone while your out plowing your covered. GL is for after you leave the site, and somebody slips and falls, or has a crash because you didn't do your job.
> Low-balling=someone who under bid a job just to get it. However, prices really depend on several factors so low-balling can have lots of meanings.


Thank you! Thumbs Up


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## nathan11507

Well I dont about that insurance ****..... Ive been plowing house for five years now and never needed commercial or contractors insurance.....let alone claim it on my taxes.....anything of 600 in ny then u do have to claim it......and in ny if ur truck is insured anything attached to it is insured as well....


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## grandview

nathan11507;1507057 said:


> Well I dont about that insurance ****..... Ive been plowing house for five years now and never needed commercial or contractors insurance.....let alone claim it on my taxes.....anything of 600 in ny then u do have to claim it......and in ny if ur truck is insured anything attached to it is insured as well....


Only if you have inland marine insurance. Tell your insurance your plowing for money and get in a accident and see what happens.

You by definition are a lowballer.Thumbs Up


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## Banksy

nathan11507;1507057 said:


> Well I dont about that insurance ****..... Ive been plowing house for five years now and never needed commercial or contractors insurance.....let alone claim it on my taxes.....anything of 600 in ny then u do have to claim it......and in ny if ur truck is insured anything attached to it is insured as well....


.........


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## nathan11507

Lowballeir? Sderiously that is all you can come up with and......as for my insurance company....they know all about the fact that i have a plow on the truck and only carry liabilty....in fact there the ones that sugessted not to get commercial or contractors for the mount of accts that i have and the fact that i only do resedential drives.....and having liability or full coverage on ur truck and hitting a car int a driveway with the plow or even on the road for that matter is no different then u driving down the road in the summer time and plowin into the ass end of another vehicle.........but then again im a lowballer lol...thats just hilarious


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## grandview

nathan11507;1507726 said:


> Lowballeir? Sderiously that is all you can come up with and......as for my insurance company....they know all about the fact that i have a plow on the truck and only carry liabilty....in fact there the ones that sugessted not to get commercial or contractors for the mount of accts that i have and the fact that i only do resedential drives.....and having liability or full coverage on ur truck and hitting a car int a driveway with the plow or even on the road for that matter is no different then u driving down the road in the summer time and plowin into the ass end of another vehicle.........but then again im a lowballer lol...thats just hilarious


They told you. Show me in writing that you can plow for money and not have insurance. Yes you can have a plow on your truck for personal use or if your plowing out your own business.Residential snow plowing is a business.


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## nathan11507

Been doing it for five years now....and u show me in writing where plowing residential driveways is a requirement for a business....lol so all these yahoos that sell fire wood all season long that u see traveling down the road there all a business... Lol.....and as long as in the state of new york anything over 600 has to be claimed.....so if its under that or at 600 u dont have to claim it let alone declare it a business....


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## RefinedPS

nathan11507;1507850 said:


> Been doing it for five years now....and u show me in writing where plowing residential driveways is a requirement for a business....lol so all these yahoos that sell fire wood all season long that u see traveling down the road there all a business... Lol.....and as long as in the state of new york anything over 600 has to be claimed.....so if its under that or at 600 u dont have to claim it let alone declare it a business....


This should help.

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Business-or-Hobby%3F-Answer-Has-Implications-for-Deductions


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## RayMich

nathan11507;1507850 said:


> Been doing it for five years now....and u show me in writing where plowing residential driveways is a requirement for a business....lol so all these yahoos that sell fire wood all season long that u see traveling down the road there all a business... Lol.....and as long as in the state of new york anything over 600 has to be claimed.....so if its under that or at 600 u dont have to claim it let alone declare it a business....


They are ALL taking a risk if they have no business insurance. Everything is fine UNTIL there is a claim against them. Then the proverbial feces will be hitting the oscillating ventilator.

What an insurance agent who is trying to retain you business tells you verbally vs what the insurance company underwriters will do if they are presented with a claim for damages you did while plowing for income are TWO totally different animals.

Unless you have it in writing from the insurance company's underwriting department that you are covered, don't count on it. -- Is your agent going to pay a lawsuit claim filed against you by someone whose property was damaged or God forbid injured, while you were plowing their driveway? -- I rather doubt it.

But then, it is your risk and it will be your family's wellbeing that will be affected if you are slapped with a $500,000 claim and the insurance company refuses to pay it because you had no commercial coverage.

I DO wish you the best my friend and I hope your are never involved in any liability litigations where you are the defendant.

Best of luck to you!


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## grandview

So for the plowing season you will make only 600.00?


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## theholycow

grandview;1507791 said:


> They told you. Show me in writing that you can plow for money and not have insurance. Yes you can have a plow on your truck for personal use or if your plowing out your own business.Residential snow plowing is a business.


Tangent: 
I've recently acquired and installed a Snowbear on my truck. I will *not* be doing any commercial plowing, nor will it ever leave my yard (except a few feet of road in front of my yard while plowing my own driveway only, and _maybe_ if a family member is in a jam). I live in RI and have Geico insurance. Do I need to notify them that I have it, that its mounts are bolted to my truck, and that I will not be plowing anybody else's property? If I was involved in a crash (perhaps one where the mount caused some damage that might not have happened without it), would they weasel out of covering it by claiming that I violated my contract by having a plow?


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## basher

nathan11507;1507057 said:


> Well I dont about that insurance ****..... Ive been plowing house for five years now and never needed commercial or contractors insurance.....let alone claim it on my taxes.....anything of 600 in ny then u do have to claim it......and in ny if ur truck is insured anything attached to it is insured as well....





grandview;1507064 said:


> Only if you have inland marine insurance. Tell your insurance your plowing for money and get in a accident and see what happens.
> 
> You by definition are a lowballer.Thumbs Up


Not if he's charging the same rates as a legitimate business



theholycow;1508037 said:


> Tangent:
> I've recently acquired and installed a Snowbear on my truck. I will *not* be doing any commercial plowing, nor will it ever leave my yard (except a few feet of road in front of my yard while plowing my own driveway only, and _maybe_ if a family member is in a jam). I live in RI and have Geico insurance. Do I need to notify them that I have it, that its mounts are bolted to my truck, and that I will not be plowing anybody else's property? If I was involved in a crash (perhaps one where the mount caused some damage that might not have happened without it), would they weasel out of covering it by claiming that I violated my contract by having a plow?


If you want coverage for theft and damage you need to have the plow listed. You need to talk to your agent about if you need to list it on both homeowners and automotive.


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## theholycow

basher;1508041 said:


> If you want coverage for theft and damage you need to have the plow listed. You need to talk to your agent about if you need to list it on both homeowners and automotive.


Sorry, I should have been more clear...I'm not looking to cover the plow, just to preserve the same coverage I've always had for my truck.


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## Plowtoy

grandview;1507928 said:


> So for the plowing season you will make only 600.00?


Am I supposed to make more than that in one season?? I thought at 5 bucks a plow, that was doing pretty good. Guess I will have to raise my rates by a couple bucks next yearpayup


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## basher

theholycow;1508044 said:


> Sorry, I should have been more clear...I'm not looking to cover the plow, just to preserve the same coverage I've always had for my truck.


I'd talk to my insurance agent. I do not believe the mount alone will eliminate your coverage in that situation. No different than installing a front (or rear) trailer hitch but again I'd strongly advise you discuss this with your insurance agent and not carry your plow on public roadways.


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## NickT

"Been doing it for five years now...." What does that have to do with anything? So if you rob banks for five years that makes it ok. Bottom line your a business pay your taxes and get insured, and don't give me the 600 bucks crap it doesn't fly here


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## grandview

We should take up a collection just for him to plow his truck through a garage door and have him submit to the insurance company to see if they will pay the claim.


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## NickT

Let me guess uh. No


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## Mike_PS

ok guys, I think MOST understand what everyone is saying so I am going to close this one down so we can move on

thanks guys :waving:


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