# Terrible Engineering At Its Finest



## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I know you guys have some equipment and trucks that you have worked on that you have wanted to grab the engineer by the back of the shirt and rub his nose in it as say "Look what you did! Looked good on the computer didn't it."

Let's hear the worst of them.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

My rant for the day stems from another Duramax water pump.

I just don't think that an item like that should require removal of the harmonic balancer, fan clutch mount, a/c condenser, power steering pump, etc...

GM's book time is 8.5 hours... for a f-ing water pump.

Why would you do that?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

The pass through wires and the auxiliary wires on the super duty aren't connected.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

This is the aux hydrlic valve body from. DMC 3700 AC.

Every fitting has a hose,


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Dam pump and motor on my blizzard are on the a frame.. Never even thought to look that it would be a problem


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

To replace the oil pan gasket on my old 84 F150 you had to take out the radiator and unhook and lift the engine. That project of just replacing a gasket pissed me off more than any other project I've done. Tried every angle and everything I could before lifting the engine.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Ford 6.0 diesel is the obvious winner here. You remove the cab to remove the heads and change the head gaskets and head bolts. It wouldn't be so bad if they were like most other vehicles that they need to be changed in maybe 1 out of 100,000 but the 6.0 is probably more then 50%.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

LapeerLandscape;2076274 said:


> Ford 6.0 diesel is the obvious winner here. You remove the cab to remove the heads and change the head gaskets and head bolts. It wouldn't be so bad if they were like most other vehicles that they need to be changed in maybe 1 out of 100,000 but the 6.0 is probably more then 50%.


OK, you have the winner. I have a 6.0 F550 - most of the motor work goes to a mechanic as I am not screwing with that train wreck


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## cbservicesllc (Aug 5, 2011)

BossPlow2010;2076250 said:


> The pass through wires and the auxiliary wires on the super duty aren't connected.


Amen... is there anyone that actually hooks something up in the cab that would take advantage of the fact they aren't hooked up??


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## cbservicesllc (Aug 5, 2011)

SnoFarmer;2076262 said:


> This is the aux hydrlic valve body from. DMC 3700 AC.
> 
> Every fitting has a hose,


Yuck... what is that?


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

I'll go a bit older. The first design GM 2.8 with serpentine belts......that required removal of an engine mount to replace!

Oh, and ANY job on an LT-1 in a Camaro or Firebird......go ahead....replace the #7 and #8 spark plugs. I dare ya.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

cbservicesllc;2076290 said:


> Yuck... what is that?


It's located in the oval you see below the side window,
Back in the Stone Age befor elicteric over hydrlic 
We had linkage for the blade control and the rear functions.

It's recessed just enough you can't turn the fitting enough with a wrench.
To get a 2nd bite. You to worlked inside the panel with a crowfoot and you may have to remove a hose just to get to the one you want to remove.
And that linkage


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

SnoFarmer;2076262 said:


> This is the aux hydrlic valve body from. DMC 3700 AC.
> 
> Every fitting has a hose,


Yeah... f*uck that! That is about as smart as wiping before you poop.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

GM......recall leader


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Got another one, been a while since I have done a set, but LB7 injectors on a Duramax. Looked threw all my archived pictures of the sets that I have done, but I can't find a singe one.

You have to pull the valve covers and everything to get to them to change a single stick.

Thank god they updated that train wreck in 04.5 LLY motors.

GM shop time went form 8 hours a side to 6 hours for the whole rack.

Someone must have whipped the snot out of the engineer that designed that and he actually learned.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

1olddogtwo;2076309 said:


> GM......recall leader


At least GM recalls them... Ford just lets them blow up


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

I thought that some things on cars and trucks were really bad until I started to work on planes. Beechcraft A36 Engine Change / With a new baffle kit. PITA 92


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## Dieselplow82 (Dec 18, 2013)

Not all that true..I've done dozens of gaskets and studs on 6.0s in my home garage without ever lifting the cab off


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Dieselplow82;2076324 said:


> Not all that true..I've done dozens of gaskets and studs on 6.0s in my home garage without ever lifting the cab off


What do you tilt the motor?


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

LapeerLandscape;2076274 said:


> Ford 6.0 diesel is the obvious winner here. You remove the cab to remove the heads and change the head gaskets and head bolts. It wouldn't be so bad if they were like most other vehicles that they need to be changed in maybe 1 out of 100,000 but the 6.0 is probably more then 50%.


Yes, this is a winner.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Sawboy;2076296 said:


> I'll go a bit older. The first design GM 2.8 with serpentine belts......that required removal of an engine mount to replace!
> 
> Oh, and ANY job on an LT-1 in a Camaro or Firebird......go ahead....replace the #7 and #8 spark plugs. I dare ya.


Ya, I remember this. It started with the '93 Camaro/Firebirds. That's when they first introduced the spark plugs that "were designed to last 100K". I believe you had to remove two motor mounts and tilt the engine if I remember correctly. Guess they figured you'd scrap the car at 100K.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

This thread as made me never want to buy a diesel. Or at least made me smart enough to have someone else do the work if I get one.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

JMHConstruction;2076335 said:


> This thread as made me never want to buy a diesel. Or at least made me smart enough to have someone else do the work if I get one.


They are not for the "faint of heart"... or the "not handy with a wrench"

Where are the Cummins boys with their damn ball joints???


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Philbilly2;2076338 said:


> They are not for the "faint of heart"... or the "not handy with a wrench"
> 
> Where are the Cummins boys with their damn ball joints???


Haven't had to change mine yet.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Harleyjeff;2076344 said:


> Haven't had to change mine yet.


5.9 guys... you don't count


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction;2076268 said:


> To replace the oil pan gasket on my old 84 F150 you had to take out the radiator and unhook and lift the engine. That project of just replacing a gasket pissed me off more than any other project I've done. Tried every angle and everything I could before lifting the engine.


I have a 92 power wagon. Sat all summer and oil pan rotted out, I did not have the heart to pull that motor up and patched it. So far so good.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2076262 said:


> This is the aux hydrlic valve body from. DMC 3700 AC.
> 
> Every fitting has a hose,


Wow never seen one like that. Some brilliant engineer.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

FredG;2076349 said:


> I have a 92 power wagon. Sat all summer and oil pan rotted out, I did not have the heart to pull that motor up and patched it. So far so good.


I tried to use the tubed sealant on the outside like it was caulk and tried a few other things. Nothing worked. Ended up doing it on during a slow starting winter like this and waited to long and had to finish it at the start of a snow storm. Got it fixed and sold that POS the next day. I had redone everything but the trans and motor (did minor motor work). It was an awesome truck other than replacing old warn out parts here and there. Then one year it was like it had realized it's age and EVERYTHING went wrong! I wonder if she still has the dent I punched in the door...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Philbilly2;2076228 said:


> My rant for the day stems from another Duramax water pump.
> 
> I just don't think that an item like that should require removal of the harmonic balancer, fan clutch mount, a/c condenser, power steering pump, etc...
> 
> ...


Over engineered, I'm a fan of the duramax and own one. The only legitimate gripe I had so far was the transfer case. Now I see what I'm in for.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Philbilly2;2076346 said:


> 5.9 guys... you don't count


Can I just say the words... "Early dodge truck" ?

Steering gear plate breaks in every single 4x4 truck built from 1978 through 1993... And it's discontinued

A 518 transmission flexplate
Wiper linkage bushing failure
Rear brake system doesn't like being bled.
Insufficient rust protection on the entire truck


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

FredG;2076363 said:


> Over engineered, I'm a fan of the duramax and own one. The only legitimate gripe I had so far was the transfer case. Now I see what I'm in for.


We have 2 duramax's replaced the transfer case the 04 and in the 03 2500 gasser. The transfer case might be a bit of a poor design but an experienced mechanic can swap one out in about 30 min...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

LapeerLandscape;2076374 said:


> We have 2 duramax's replaced the transfer case the 04 and in the 03 2500 gasser. The transfer case might be a bit of a poor design but an experienced mechanic can swap one out in about 30 min...


Well said. They failed on the design of the product, but at least those are easy to change. I don't mind that as much as the por design and a disaster to replace. Those blow my head gaskets!


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Anybody experience the infamous Dodge death wobble that no one can seem to correct.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Philbilly2;2076325 said:


> What do you tilt the motor?


Don't need to. Just split the ac box in half


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## newhere (Oct 13, 2009)

I initially thought doing 7.3 injectors was a bad project but I can now go from a running engine to all injectors out and replaced in under 1 hour. 

Ask me how I can do it so fast or better yet just don't buy injectors from Pensacola diesel. Let me repeat that do NOT buy Pensacola injectors.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

Philbilly2;2076312 said:


> At least GM recalls them... Ford just lets them blow up


I wouldn't say chevy is perfect. the key ignition sandal that took them years to release and was connected to quite a few deaths.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/gm-ignition-switch-review-complete-124-fatalities-274-injuries/

Not a truck but a chevy equinox around the 2008's has quite a few design flaws. To replace a headlight you have to take the whole front end off and i didnt believe it when my mechanic said it so i called our dealer and he said that was correct. then to replace an air compressor for A/C it cost like 900 to replace because it takes like 10 hours to do...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape;2076274 said:


> Ford 6.0 diesel is the obvious winner here. You remove the cab to remove the heads and change the head gaskets and head bolts. It wouldn't be so bad if they were like most other vehicles that they need to be changed in maybe 1 out of 100,000 but the 6.0 is probably more then 50%.


There is nothing good aboot the 6.0.

How aboot that awesome snap ring failure in the TorqShift? Or the planetary pins walking out? Or the mystery downshift from 45+ mph down to 2nd gear? The HPOP system? The STC fitting? I can go on.

And Pat, GM has nothing on Ford when it comes to recalls and reflashes on the 6.0.

How aboot the oil pans on the 7.3? Not only was it junk steel, but the engine has to be removed to replace it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Dogplow Dodge;2076364 said:


> Can I just say the words... "Early dodge truck" ?
> 
> Steering gear plate breaks in every single 4x4 truck built from 1978 through 1993... And it's discontinued
> 
> ...


Never had the steering gear plate break.

If you think Dodges rust bad, don't buy a Furd.


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## cbservicesllc (Aug 5, 2011)

SnoFarmer;2076302 said:


> It's located in the oval you see below the side window,
> Back in the Stone Age befor elicteric over hydrlic
> We had linkage for the blade control and the rear functions.
> 
> ...


Wow no thanks!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape;2076407 said:


> Anybody experience the infamous Dodge death wobble that no one can seem to correct.


Had it on my 94 3500, a new steering stabilizer fixed it.

Brakes sucked on that truck too. Fronts did most of the work. Burned through 3 sets of pads in 21k miles. Never did get them working right.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

(46RE/46RH )

the engineer who add the overdrive to the 727, needs to be keel hauled, a few times.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2076458 said:


> There is nothing good aboot the 6.0.
> 
> How aboot that awesome snap ring failure in the TorqShift? Or the planetary pins walking out? Or the mystery downshift from 45+ mph down to 2nd gear? The HPOP system? The STC fitting? I can go on.
> 
> ...


How about the the dip stick where it goes into the oil pan on the 7.3.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2076464 said:


> Had it on my 94 3500, a new steering stabilizer fixed it.
> 
> Brakes sucked on that truck too. Fronts did most of the work. Burned through 3 sets of pads in 21k miles. Never did get them working right.


A friend of mine had a new cummins in 2008, he got the death wobble going across the bridge on the 405 in St Catharines, Ontario on his way to NY.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;2076464 said:


> Had it on my 94 3500, a new steering stabilizer fixed it.
> 
> Brakes sucked on that truck too. Fronts did most of the work. Burned through 3 sets of pads in 21k miles. Never did get them working right.


Three sets of pads in 21K is ridiculous, but the fronts usually do the majority of the work on any vehicle. On a side note, remember doing brake work on older vehicles with drum brakes? You had to back up in reverse real fast and slam on the brakes, which would move the brake shoes and pick up the adjuster finger which would manually thread the adjuster out?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

No access panel to get at fuel tank sending units and in tank pumps.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Good thread. Engineers should have to work on the products they design, under typical repair conditions (which may include on your back, in the mud, trying to get a nut off a bolt that hasn't moved in 10 years.)



SnoFarmer;2076302 said:


> It's located in the oval you see below the side window,
> Back in the Stone Age befor elicteric over hydrlic
> We had linkage for the blade control and the rear functions.
> 
> ...


That sucks. For similar problems on airplanes, I had a set of Snap-On racheting B-nut wrenches, similar to this...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proto-3816-...ng-Flare-Nut-Wrench-Made-in-USA-/131628103570

It made life easier, although we still would frequently say "Goddamned Engineers!" When those failed it was a set of craftsman and snap on box ends, since the offsets were slightly different, and by flipping each one over you could get a 24th of a turn at a time.

With the caveat that airplanes are too easy as targets (Turbocharged piston twins typically average 1.5 maintenance man hours per flight hour, and old military helicopters average 150+ mmh per flight hour).....

One of my least favorite tasks is the landing gear transmissions on Twin Cessnas. First, you undo 60 screws on the floor panel flange to get the floor up. However the screws are so close to the flange that you can't get a screwdriver straight on and have to use right angle drives or wobble bits or you cam out the heads and have to drill them out (Goddamned engineers). Then you have to remove safety wire that safeties three bolts together and take a bolt out for grease relief.

Now you can FINALLY do what you wanted to do in the first place - put three squirts of grease into a zerk fitting (Make sure you grab the right tube of grease out of the 4 different types you need on one aircraft).

Put the bolt back in, and then safety wire the three bolts blind since your hand and safety wire tools are where you need to see. (Double Goddamned engineers). Inspect with a mirror, and redo until you get it right (Triple or Quadruple damned engineers depending on how many times it takes to get it right). Then put the floor back in. Couple hours of work for what should be a 10 second job which has to be repeated every 100 hours of flight time. (What the hell was the $*@(#$*!!!! engineer smoking when he designed this?)


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## OneBadDodge06 (Sep 22, 2004)

The jack wagons who came up with the Dodge version of a fuse box known as a totally integrated power module. What a PITA and they aren't cheap either.


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## AllSeasonsOmaha (Nov 16, 2012)

I am always on PS but I never post and this topic forced me to add to this thread.

I see your Ford 6.0 and raise you a Ford 6.4 diesel. Let me preface this by saying that before I started my company I worked as a professional auto tech so I am pretty mechanically savvy. I also have a decent collection of tools at my disposal. None of my trucks or equipment is worked on by anyone but me and I usually don't mind wrenching on any of it. Usually....

Earlier this year my 2008 F-450 started acting up and eventually threw a code relating to the high pressure fuel pump. Well I replaced the pump (cab on I don't have a lift at my shop) which required removing everything on top of the motor including the turbos because the pump lives in the valley of the engine. The hardest part was getting to the bolts on the egr up pipes. There are six 10mm bolts that all need to be heated with the torch or you risk breaking them off and then the cab MUST come off. There is very little space to accomplish this and my hands were more torn up from this job than any other. You also have to drain the coolant and remove the fuel cooler and of course the high pressure fuel lines which are one time use only. Then once back together you have to bleed the coolant and the fuel systems. All this for a hp fuel pump. Oh yeah and if the pump grenades and sends metal into the fuel system, be ready to replace all the hp lines and all 8 injectors. Pretty much the whole fuel delivery system.

The 6.4 doesn't have the head gasket problems as often as the 6.0s but it gets my vote. And don't get me started on the DPF......


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

I have the wrench for those turbo bolts. 6.0 had the same issue


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

And Pat, GM has nothing on Ford when it comes to recalls and reflashes on the 6.0.


I was hoping that would have been sweep under the rug.

Western kills me with that damn filler plug. Got to take the plow off the truck unless you have a long funnel after you break a hose


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## AllSeasonsOmaha (Nov 16, 2012)

I am aware of the wrench for those. They are prone to breaking. But yes the 6.0 has many of the same faults.


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## ppkgmsy (Jan 18, 2008)

I think it's a general problem throughout our country that people no longer expect to work on their own equipment. The engineers design doesn't give a crap about what it will mean to the guy doing the maintenance and repair.


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## Sawboy (Dec 18, 2005)

AllSeasonsOmaha;2076612 said:


> And don't get me started on the DPF......


This has to be the winner. All brands, all suck. Throw em right in the dumper with Chryslers "Lean burn" engines of the 70's.

Oh! And the "odd or even" firing 231 Buick V6 with the camshaft that would actually wear through the front of the timing cover!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ppkgmsy;2076754 said:


> I think it's a general problem throughout our country that people no longer expect to work on their own equipment. The engineers design doesn't give a crap about what it will mean to the guy doing the maintenance and repair.


More like a general problem with engineers who don't have a freaking clue what the real world is like.

Everything is done by computer and apparently a good number of these idiots don't or can't understand that life is not a design on a computer. And by designing stuff stupidly, it increases costs for everybody.

Add in the government regulations for emissions and all that BS and this is what we end up with.

How about the cars with the batteries under the rear seat? Or you have to remove the front clip to replace a stupid headlight? Hello?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

How about the smog pump back in the 70-80's. It would pump air into the exhaust manifold so that the exhaust (carbon) coming out the tail pipe would have less parts per million. Genius!!! I think the guy that invented that went to work for VW.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2076759 said:


> Or you have to remove the front clip to replace a stupid headlight? Hello?


my toyota pickup has that.

You would think that the japs would have done a better job of not messing with ya, eh ?


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

OneBadDodge06;2076583 said:


> The jack wagons who came up with the Dodge version of a fuse box known as a totally integrated power module. What a PITA and they aren't cheap either.


Well, my fuse box hangs just above my feet in my dodge.

Better yet,..

They ran EVERYTHING through the ignition switch. Heater, headlamps, wiper, etc.

BURNS up the ignition switch, and melts the fuse panel above your feet.

I think Dodge should be awarded for pure stupidity on a lot of those fronts.

Are we talking corvair asphyxiating people yet ?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Dogplow Dodge;2076804 said:


> Are we talking corvair asphyxiating people yet ?


Still have to get through exploding Pinto's.......


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;2076759 said:


> How about the cars with the batteries under the rear seat?


Man o man, that one...

My wife's Acaida has the battery in the backseat down in the floor right behind the front passenger seat. Talk about looking like and idiot trying to find that SOB. There is a ground lug and a positive lug under the hood, but I must have looked for a hour under very single piece of plastic under that hood until I got out the manual in the glove box. While I was sitting there in the passenger seat reading the dang thing could have stabbed me in the back!


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

BUFF;2076829 said:


> Still have to get through exploding Pinto's.......


Haha, I bought a pinto at a farm auction when I was 16 to use as a field car for $50. The bomb was at the transmitter...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus;2076907 said:


> Haha, I bought a pinto at a farm auction when I was 16 to use as a field car for $50. The bomb was at the transmitter...


WKRP is an all time classic.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

WkrpThumbs Up

We haven't even mentioned chain lift plows....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Might just be time for a KRP marathon.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

"As God as my witness I thought turkeys could fly..."


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus;2076924 said:


> "As God as my witness I thought turkeys could fly..."


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

http://www.hulu.com/watch/290

Fish story............another all time classic


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

We should probably move this over to the remember this thread....cause this could go on for awhile..:laughing:


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## Ramitt (Mar 12, 2013)

I think the 6.0 powerstokes were a hit a miss item.. Most were a hit but there are some that made it pretty far before problems came along.. My uncle don had an 03 crew cab dually.. Had 138k on it and only thing he had on it was a set of gauges and coolant filter kit.. I drove it when he brought it up here from GA and it ran good.. After he passed away my uncle allan bought it and drives it to work everyday.. He has had it for 2 years and hasnt done a thing to it other than put tires on it... I honestly thought about buying it since my aunt didnt want to see it leave the family..


Anyway back on topic.... Ford 5.4 spark plugs(major pita to do.. Have to be gumby) and manifold gaskets... Might as well trade it in if you need to put gaskets on it.. 

5.9 cummins oil pan gaskets arent to fun either.. IC boots come off,Rad hoses,loosen fan shroud,Remove Intake,turbo down pipe has to come off, loosen motor mounts, jack truck up so axle extends all the way down then lift the motor.. You are now ready to change the gasket lol


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Ramitt;2080881 said:


> I think the 6.0 powerstokes were a hit a miss item.. Most were a hit but there are some that made it pretty far before problems came along.. My uncle don had an 03 crew cab dually.. Had 138k on it and only thing he had on it was a set of gauges and coolant filter kit.. I drove it when he brought it up here from GA and it ran good.. After he passed away my uncle allan bought it and drives it to work everyday.. He has had it for 2 years and hasnt done a thing to it other than put tires on it... I honestly thought about buying it since my aunt didnt want to see it leave the family..


Must have been an early 03....


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

New one... my wife's GMC Acadia...

Daytime running lights, markers, turn signals... you have to remove the wheel skirts and access from the wheel well... WHY????


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

My wife's got a '13 Acadia too. I installed a trans cooler so we could use it to pull my boat when my truck wasn't available. Had to remove the entire front fascia to get to the radiator to install it.


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## CARDOCTOR (Nov 29, 2002)

mazda cx9. water pump is driven by the timing chain and when it leaks the crank case fills with antifreeze. $4500 have to pull the motor for a fricken water pump


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

DODGE Charger 2.7 water pump is driven by the timing chain. Leaks into the oil. 70,000 miles and mine went out.


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## OneBadDodge06 (Sep 22, 2004)

Philbilly2 said:


> They are not for the "faint of heart"... or the "not handy with a wrench"
> 
> Where are the Cummins boys with their damn ball joints???


Did mine last April and replaced with Carli. Ended up using a cut off wheel to cut through the bj studs and destroyed the hubs separating the hub from the knuckle. 25 ton press wouldn't even budge it.


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