# Best Wheel loader for Snow Removal and accessory use



## miniwarehousing

I know this is a loaded question and people will post their allegiance, but I'd like to know why you chose the loader and size of loader that you went with.
We have a 40 + acre facility that we are looking at purchasing a machine for.
We are in Mass where we get about 60" of snow per year.
I'd like the ability to run an angle broom and/or snowblower.
I've used Volvo's which are my prefferred machine so far.
I've also used a John Deere and was not impressed.
Ranked in my order of preference would be:
Volvo
Caterpiller
Komatsu, 
Case
Kawasaki
Doosan

Can anyone help me out with some of their experience? 

TIA


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## Neige

miniwarehousing;1217392 said:


> I know this is a loaded question and people will post their allegiance, but I'd like to know why you chose the loader and size of loader that you went with.
> We have a 40 + acre facility that we are looking at purchasing a machine for.
> We are in Mass where we get about 60" of snow per year.
> I'd like the ability to run an angle broom and/or snowblower.
> I've used Volvo's which are my prefferred machine so far.
> I've also used a John Deere and was not impressed.
> Ranked in my order of preference would be:
> Volvo
> Caterpiller
> Komatsu,
> Case
> Kawasaki
> Doosan
> 
> Can anyone help me out with some of their experience?
> 
> TIA


That is a loaded question. I run with Volvo s more because I keep getting great pricing on them and the dealer is 5 miles away. I do a 20 acre facility, and 1 loader would be truely at its limit for keeping up. I hope you will be looking for more than 1 loader for a 40+ acre account. I like the Cats, Deeres, New Hollands, and Komatsu, JCB makes a really nice loader also.


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## snowbelt5

john deere 544 with a 20' box pusherThumbs Up


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## SNOWLORD

Cats are probably the best loader. That being said I dont think they are the best value. Volvo and Komatsu are both good machines but if you are buying new the arent far off from the cat price. Case are a little lighter built but for snow work they are pretty good and quite a bit cheaper than the cats. We tried a Hyndai (cant remember how to spell it now) and it wasnt bad but it felt light to me but it worked. If I were in your shoes I would stay with a 46,000# machine or larger 4 yard machine or larger, The key to a wheel loader is the tranny especially pushing alot of snow. Also I would buy a used machine with a dealer close that seems good to deal with. And a 20ft minnimum box for that site. Remember weight is what pushes snow.


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## SD-Dave

Questions.....40 acres but how much paved? How much roads vs parking lots? How wide and open or narrow and closed in? How many obstacles? Docks? Etc?

Depending on those answers then some sort of machine plan can be suggested....definitely would be thinking about multiples in machines one isn't enough unless it's just one large parking lot or a runway.


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## buckwheat_la

CATs definetly hold their value the best, although new they are expensive. I see a lot of Case loaders used around here, 621's (i believe delldoug uses them too). One thing to keep in mind is that pushing snow isn't that hard of work for a loader IMO


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## miniwarehousing

SD-Dave;1218039 said:


> Questions.....40 acres but how much paved? How much roads vs parking lots? How wide and open or narrow and closed in? How many obstacles? Docks? Etc?
> 
> Depending on those answers then some sort of machine plan can be suggested....definitely would be thinking about multiples in machines one isn't enough unless it's just one large parking lot or a runway.












So we have trailers to plow around, Main Access roads to plow and also parking lots, and loading docks. We're not just talking a rectangle lot that I can disperse snow everywhere.

You're relectuance for one machine is troubling. We're thinking that an L70 with angle plow/pusher (Kage Industries or Snow Wolf) and 1 dump truck with a plow and a pick up with a plow is suffecient equipment.

Again,
Thank you guys for honest opinions.


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## leon

*loader for snow work etc.,etc.*



miniwarehousing;1217392 said:


> I know this is a loaded question and people will
> post their allegiance, but I'd like to know why you
> chose the loader and size of loader that you went with.
> 
> We have a 40 + acre facility that we are looking at
> purchasing a machine for.
> 
> We are in Mass., where we get about 60" of snow per year.
> I'd like the ability to run an angle broom and/or snowblower.
> I've used Volvo's which are my preferred machine so far.
> I've also used a John Deere and was not impressed.
> Ranked in my order of preference would be:
> Volvo
> Caterpiller
> Komatsu,
> Case
> Kawasaki
> Doosan
> 
> Can anyone help me out with some of their experience?
> 
> TIA


========================================================================================================================================================================================================================

It is not the loader or Branding you have to worry about its the attachment and its size.

Thats much more important in the scheme of things and what you have to look at.

You have a forty acre area that you are maintaining with current equipment;

How much open area do you really have access to and ability to clean at all times?,

This is more important the need to shop for brands of equipment.

If you were a municipality you would be forced to accept the low bidders quote.

You need to narrow down the basics:

1. What is the widest area I can clean at one time?
2. How much time to clean an area of the entire 40 acre area?
3. what is the smallest area I have to clean and where am I able to remove the snow?

NOW:

An acre is 43,560 square feet; 
40 acres is 1,742,400 square feet,
1/16 of a sqaure mile in area.

The smallest motorised road grader from Caterpillar, Volvo, John Deere, among others with 6 loaded tires, chains, 2 wings and a single operator will cover a 20 foot width of cut with one wing blade and the belly plow at 1 mile per hour (88 feet per minute) or faster.

If you have a 5,000 foot pass 20 foot wide thats one hundred thousand square feet,
at one mile per hour it will require 56 minutes and of course will take less time at faster 
speeds using a curved dual directional plow in the nose of the grader.

You could simply purchase the smallest late model road grader for plowing with a curved nose plow and buy an airport sized broom for any loader that has a hydraulic attachment option.

You could simply mount a detachable self contained snogo brand motorised snow blower on the grader front end or a trackless backhoe with 5+ tons of bucket capacity for the $80,000 dollar price tag of the snogo and have more versatility and less issues with snow build ups and the inherent ability to cast snow away for great distances if available or load trucks with the extended chute option.

The snow blower as a hydraulic powered attachment is limited to the available hydraulic fluid flow and pressure that the accessory spool can offer the attachment where the snogo self contained snow blower has none of these issues.


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## leon

*snow etc.*



miniwarehousing;1218145 said:


> So we have trailers to plow around, Main Access roads to plow and also parking lots, and loading docks. We're not just talking a rectangle lot that I can disperse snow everywhere.
> 
> You're relectuance for one machine is troubling. We're thinking that an L70 with angle plow/pusher (Kage Industries or Snow Wolf) and 1 dump truck with a plow and a pick up with a plow is suffecient equipment.
> 
> Again,
> Thank you guys for honest opinions.


================================================================================================================================================

Now that I see what you have to maintain; The 5 ton plus capacity backhoe or the smallest road grader to carry the box blade and snow blower and or any box blade will help you for a lot less money.

There are a lot of rental returns and job completion auctions that come around with good used equipment.

The road grader will give you the greatest amount of visibility and lighting as well.


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## blowerman

any solid wheel loader with a 14 ft. pusher for what you are showing...


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## miniwarehousing

Thanks guys.
I like the snogo blower, thanks for pointing out that model. We have considered snowblowing attachments, so that is a nice one. Just need to figure out size and price on one of those.
I really like the Kage Industries, plow/snowpusher combo as well and think both would work great. The angle broom was another attachment that we can use to clean the facility as well, adding to the value.
However, the Grader that you guys have suggested is a new suggestion I've never considered.
My first questions would be is it as versatile as a loader regarding other functionality?
I would think less maneuverable (sp?) as well. Would it be able to sweep and do other cleanups during the non snow months?
So please correct me if I'm wrong on my assumptions.

The volvo dealer recommended the L70 size machine and was pretty firm about not needing a larger capacity machine.
Given that recommendation and my possible intention of snowblowing and angle plowing with a removable pusher (kage/snow wolf), would you say bigger loader or smaller loader than the L70?


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## leon

*plow etc*

Since I am not reaching into your wallet pocket and trying to increase your debt load.

The snowgo folks have 1 model and its $80,000.00 Canadian Loonies from 2010

They have used ones come in on trade sometimes and a lot of municipal units come out and go to auction too.

The BIg Zauggs are really to big for this site.

You may want to invest in a pair of the smaller Zauggs-

-being the Snow Beast and it smaller brother "the Bulldog" and have an operators platform added to save on walking for both of them They may be small but they will get into the tight placed to free up the trailers quickly if that is what is requied on a moments notice and the Duetz and Kubota engines sip fuel.

The smallest Volvo road grader with a belly blade and the front attachment kit can handle a box blade as long as the front hitch is set up for it.

An articulating loader is potentially deadly with a wide box blade unless you light the corners at all times.

The box blade does not have to be any wider than the tires of the grader, and if you have the tires loaded with windishield washer fluid or rim guard, the traction will be tremendous with chains on all six wheels and the chains will not make a mess of the pavement because of the graders low stable speeds

The grader has a narrow swing arc and the box blade only as wide as the tires foot print will be much less likely to cause clearance issues

You could use the grader to push and pile shallow and simply use the 2 smaller Zauggs to get rid of it at the open areas.

About the sweepers:

Brushes are costly and time consuming to change; A BCS 2 wheel tractor with the brush kit uses gauge wheels to reduce excess wear.

A large 2 wheel BCS tractor and the wide sweeper would run about $5,500+- and you could also add a mower.

The BCS can have a sulky attached to allow the operator to ride behind it and not get tired from walking. The sulky can be detached to do smaller areas and keep them clean

The smaller sweeper makes less dust too.

The Zaugss and the BCS are nimble enough that they can be trailered and used elseware.

You could use the grader to trailer them to the next job as well with a small beaver tail with a full width ramp.

Adding a High Intensity Dicharge light kit to the Volvo grader will permit you to work at night with no shadows and blindspots. (but the lights cannot be used on the road)

The ownership cost for a volvo grader and a small box blade for the front will be much less.

The 2 smaller Zaugg snow throwers and the BCS sweeper will cost you less to own and operate. The 2 stage snow thrower for the BCS tractors are gear driven and are built for snow in the swiss alps and you can use it where the Zauggs cannot go-
narrow sidewalks with shrubbery, between trailers, between cars, next to doors to remove heavy drifted snows in tight areas, switch gear yard entrances, fire escape doors and escape ladder way zones, that must be kept free of snow build up(if the Zauggs are busy with snow stock piles etc.).

The snow beast has a chute extesion to load trucks I think.

The tracked Fujii snow blowers are bit smaller but I dont believe that they have a dealer in the states where the Zaugg dealer is in Colorado and the beast and bulldog are a stock item for them.

I am not trying tospend your money I just think the grader and the smallest pusher would be perfect for this and have no issues with clearances.and constantly having to raise the pusher to dump a full box and have to go back to clean up.

You would be able to use the belly blade for the road access too assuming you are clearing the dirt road there also.

The graders are much simpler to work on also.

Adding a larger sweeper would simply amount to the mounting brackets for the attachment to the grader and the hosing if you want a wider sweeper but the brushes wil wear sooner unless they can be set up with gauge wheels.


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## getoffroad

Try a kawasaki loader, you will not be dissapointed!!


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## miniwarehousing

leon;1219726 said:


> The snowgo folks have 1 model and its $80,000.00 Canadian Loonies from 2010


That is too pricey for a snowblower for our needs.


leon;1219726 said:


> The BIg Zauggs are really to big for this site.


The zf110 and monoblock might just be the ticket. Do you know what those go for?



leon;1219726 said:


> You may want to invest in a pair of the smaller Zauggs-
> -being the Snow Beast and it smaller brother "the Bulldog" and have an operators platform added to save on walking for both of them They may be small but they will get into the tight placed to free up the trailers quickly if that is what is requied on a moments notice and the Duetz and Kubota engines sip fuel.


I think these are much too small for our needs. We don't have many small areas like sidewalks or fire escapes to clear.



leon;1219726 said:


> The smallest Volvo road grader with a belly blade and the front attachment kit can handle a box blade as long as the front hitch is set up for it.


I can't pile the snow with the grader, which is something we'll have to be able to do.



leon;1219726 said:


> An articulating loader is potentially deadly with a wide box blade unless you light the corners at all times.


Do you mean lighting with cab mounted lights or do you mean marker type lights on the edges of the box pusher?


leon;1219726 said:


> the traction will be tremendous with chains on all six wheels and the chains will not make a mess of the pavement because of the graders low stable speeds.


 The first couple videos that came up for grader snow plowing is of a couple graders getting stuck.
More and more, I don't feel a grader would be a good fit with its extra long wheel base and lack of lifting ability.



leon;1219726 said:


> About the sweepers:
> Brushes are costly and time consuming to change; A BCS 2 wheel tractor with the brush kit uses gauge wheels to reduce excess wear.
> A large 2 wheel BCS tractor and the wide sweeper would run about $5,500+- and you could also add a mower.
> The BCS can have a sulky attached to allow the operator to ride behind it and not get tired from walking. The sulky can be detached to do smaller areas and keep them clean
> The smaller sweeper makes less dust too.


Have you ever swept large areas with these? Being in a sealed cab is a necessity when you're sweeping for 8 hours at a time. Nevermind standing.



leon;1219726 said:


> The Zaugss and the BCS are nimble enough that they can be trailered and used elseware. You could use the grader to trailer them to the next job as well with a small beaver tail with a full width ramp.


 We only have one site, so no added value here.



leon;1219726 said:


> Adding a High Intensity Dicharge light kit to the Volvo grader will permit you to work at night with no shadows and blindspots. (but the lights cannot be used on the road)


I think this would be a valueable accessory on any machine we use.



leon;1219726 said:


> The ownership cost for a volvo grader and a small box blade for the front will be much less.


Much less? How much vs a wheel loader?



leon;1219726 said:


> Adding a larger sweeper would simply amount to the mounting brackets for the attachment to the grader and the hosing if you want a wider sweeper but the brushes wil wear sooner unless they can be set up with gauge wheels.


Gauge wheels will be added to any of the sweepers we choose. But we want to get an angle style broom for spring cleanup.


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## leon

*snow etc.*



miniwarehousing;1221270 said:


> That is too pricey for a snowblower for our needs.
> 
> The zf110 and monoblock might just be the ticket. Do you know what those go for?
> 
> The loader mounted zauggs are as much or more than the snogo
> 
> I think these are much too small for our needs. We don't have many small areas like sidewalks or fire escapes to clear.
> 
> These blowers get rid of hundreds of tons per hour so thats not an issue believe me
> 
> The snow beast and and bull dog were developed for deep snows in ski resorts in europe and the western USA
> 
> I can't pile the snow with the grader, which is something we'll have to be able to do.
> 
> You can pile snow with grader using a front blade and wing blade pushing it back if you feel you need to but with the snow beast its a non issue.
> 
> Why pile it when you can get rid of it with the Zaugg snow beast or bulldog snow blower the first time?????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> Do you mean lighting with cab mounted lights or do you mean marker type lights on the edges of the box pusher?
> 
> NO the HID lights mount on the frame of the grader along with the standard lights.
> 
> The first couple videos that came up for grader snow plowing is of a couple graders getting stuck.
> 
> I will post the links for you to see them work and prove it to you.
> 
> More and more, I don't feel a grader would be a good fit with its extra long wheel base and lack of lifting ability.
> 
> Graders are used to push snow back with wing blades as a standard practie so thats normal for them.
> 
> The front lift allows you to push and stack with the front hoist kit so thats not an issue anyway and the
> 
> Zauggs would eliminate stacking anywayif you simply used the grader and a front mounted box blade on it.
> 
> You can plow with belly blade and push it back with the wing blade by simply raising the wing and driving forward.
> 
> Have you ever swept large areas with these? Being in a sealed cab is a necessity when you're sweeping for 8 hours at a time. Never mind standing.
> 
> So you never wet down an area before you sweep it?????????????????????????? ,is this what your telling me? the brushes dont care if its wet or dry.
> 
> We only have one site, so no added value here.
> 
> you would be able to find more custormers especially with the 2 smaller tracked Zaugg sno0w throwers.
> 
> I think this would be a valueable accessory on any machine we use.
> 
> Much less? How much vs a wheel loader?
> 10-15 percent from what i remember compared to a 5-7 yard machine
> 
> You want to pay over $2,500 a month for a leased L70 2 yard machine when you can buy the smallest Volvo grader over 7 years and have a forever machine that is all wheel drive??????????????
> 
> Assuming you intend to depreciate this machine over the 7 year IRS life span for mobile machinery physical plant-thats 84 payments and deductable interest and repair expense and 7 years of depreciation expense against your gross income.
> 
> What prevents you from finding work for the grader the other months 7 of the year somewhere else cutting shoulders back for a county highway department ??
> 
> Gauge wheels will be added to any of the sweepers we choose. But we want to get an angle style broom for spring cleanup.


The towed motorised brooms have gauge wheels as standard equipment and or screw adjustments using an air cooled engine and the Volvo brushes dont last very long from my past experience with the L70 I used.

You can buy motorised towed sweepers for pick ups for this too, and they will work with wet pavement.

As far as sweepers go there are a herd of small sweepers including pick up truck mounted sweeper units that would cost much less than a sweeper atachment.

I will post the links for you here a bit later, just remember that I am not the one working for a commision from a sale or lease to you .............................................................


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## leon

*snow etc.*

links:

www.Zauggamerica.com

video samples for the snow beast and Bulldog.

On youtube look for the Volvo G900 road grader 
plowing snow in the Volvo sponsored video
if you still dont believe a road grader cannot plow or stack snow.

There is another nicely done video on plowsite here that one of the members added 
and I commented on how well it plows as well and it shows you how it can 
do a thorough job of plowing too in a very crowded neighborhood in either 
Sweden or Norway.

www.mobileHID.com

You have lots of room to blow the snow into the tree line with either of the zauggs judging form the picture you have provided.


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## miniwarehousing

Leon,
Thanks for your information here. You have a lot of knowledge on this and it is VERY helpful. Thank you again.
I'm still skeptical of the grader and the mini snowblowers. Finding operators to stand out in freezing temperatures to snowblow huge piles of snow doesn't seem realistic. When it's snowing for a day and you're operator is outside getting windblown snow all over, I don't see how anyone would be able to work that way for extended periods of time. 
I see the graders all pushing snow off the side of the machines and dispersing on the sides or leaving huge windrows for a loader or blower to pick up and remove. I need to push the snow 100% from one side to the otherside and I don't have dump trucks to blow into to move the snow the distances needed.
Please don't take this as an argument but as a student asking a teacher. I just don't see graders clearing parking lots and malls online. I see them clearing streets and that is where I can see they make a lot of sense.

In any case, we would purchase the machine and not lease. So the argument of depreciation over leasing is not valid. Either one will be a "good" purchase as the depreciation will be higher than the actual value of the machine. 
We're not looking to do snow removal as a business for other people. We would have enough on our plate here to keep the operation running. 
To get other customers, you have to have equipment at other sites running simultaneously. People around here, don't wait till you're all cleared out of one site to start the other.

If a mini Zauggs goes down, you're S.O.L. until you get it up and running.
With a loader and snow thrower attachment, you can at least hook up the bucket and move the snow still.
The pull behind sweeps would be OK, but then what do you do with the large piles that you have created? A loader switches out to bucket and now you can get rid of the debris piles as well.

Again Leon...I thank you for the advice.


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## leon

*road grader et al.*



miniwarehousing;1222016 said:


> Leon,
> Thanks for your information here. You have a lot of knowledge on this and it is VERY helpful. Thank you again.
> I'm still skeptical of the grader and the mini snowblowers. Finding operators to stand out in freezing temperatures to snowblow huge piles of snow doesn't seem realistic. When it's snowing for a day and you're operator is outside getting windblown snow all over, I don't see how anyone would be able to work that way for extended periods of time.
> I see the graders all pushing snow off the side of the machines and dispersing on the sides or leaving huge windrows for a loader or blower to pick up and remove. I need to push the snow 100% from one side to the otherside and I don't have dump trucks to blow into to move the snow the distances needed.
> Please don't take this as an argument but as a student asking a teacher. I just don't see graders clearing parking lots and malls online. I see them clearing streets and that is where I can see they make a lot of sense.
> 
> In any case, we would purchase the machine and not lease. So the argument of depreciation over leasing is not valid. Either one will be a "good" purchase as the depreciation will be higher than the actual value of the machine.
> We're not looking to do snow removal as a business for other people. We would have enough on our plate here to keep the operation running.
> To get other customers, you have to have equipment at other sites running simultaneously. People around here, don't wait till you're all cleared out of one site to start the other.
> 
> If a mini Zauggs goes down, you're S.O.L. until you get it up and running.
> With a loader and snow thrower attachment, you can at least hook up the bucket and move the snow still.
> The pull behind sweeps would be OK, but then what do you do with the large piles that you have created? A loader switches out to bucket and now you can get rid of the debris piles as well.
> 
> Again Leon...I thank you for the advice.


About the "Zaugg Bulldog" and "Zaugg Snow Beast"

People use these things in all kinds of weather at the ski resorts to keep the walking paths open and the roads and parking lots, your job is NO DIFFERENT.

The narrow chutes and spouts control the discharge completely and you have a solid stream of
snow being discharged and GONE.

The repairs for thses things are simple and the components are not SPECIAL. 
Most of the units on the market have open center hydraulic systems and have:
one pump with one or more gear sections or a piston pump for a closed center system

2 drive motors for the tracks

chute control cylinder
spout control cylinder 
auger lift and lower/tilt cylinder 
Mechanical reduction gear drive for the impeller
safety presence control system to stop forward 
or rearward movement if the operator looses his or her grip.

You have realise thar you never blow snow unless you can see 
or unless its daylight and there is NO wind.

These machines were designed to move deep heavy snows with the open augers andhigh torque impellers for long distances in areas with heavy snow pack. The Duetz and Kubota engines are top notch as well as the track drive sytems.

You have to understand that these things will throw everything in front of it GONE!!!!

If you have ever seem snow blowers work on rail service or roads you will see them thow it ahead of the blowerr for thosands of feet and it continually removes it all until its 
at apoint where it can discharge the snow to the side of the rod and its gone ,GONE, the first time.

There is still no reason you cannot use a small box blade on a grader with enough tractive wieght to move massive amounts of snow.

I can sell you a near4 zero dust pick up sweeper that you can tow around with a lawn tractor and have no dust and simply dump it out using a boat winch then shovel it in a dumpster with zero issues if that would make easier.


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## IMAGE

There are a couple companies in my town using road graders to clean parking lots. One of which is cleaning a very large mall parking lot with the help of loaders. They are used with wheel loaders that stack the snow, or that are loading trucks to haul it away. The graders provide a VERY clean surface, scraping through all the hardpack snow and ice caused by vehicle traffic and daytime snows. They seem to work really fast for windrowing the few times I've watched them.


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## miniwarehousing

Image...Thanks for the input. Our issue is moving the windrows from one end to the other. That is where we feel we have our issue.
Can you let me know what the average cost of the Normand blowers go for?


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## blowerman

While I believe a wheel loader such as the Volvo L60 or L70 with a 14' pusher is one of the best for snow removal based on your site picture, perhaps a large framed ag tractor would be better for your application.
WIth a larger farm tractor you could use it with a loader and pusher on the front and bigger industrial blower on the back.
This type of set up by the time you purchase everything will put you in the $100K range.
Perhaps a 7000 series Deere with 14 ft. pusher on the loader and a 8 1/2 ft. blower on the 3 point hitch.


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## leon

*snow etc.*

If you want a price for a Normand, S. Houle, or a Pronovost PXPL-86, you should 
send Paul Vanderzon an inquiry on a copy of your letter head.

The Schmidt P-500 is a single stage high tonnage snow thrower and 
can be mounted a farm tractor just as well as a Unimog.

The Schmidt eastern USA dealer is in Vermont.


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## miniwarehousing

blowerman;1223104 said:


> While I believe a wheel loader such as the Volvo L60 or L70 with a 14' pusher is one of the best for snow removal based on your site picture, perhaps a large framed ag tractor would be better for your application.
> WIth a larger farm tractor you could use it with a loader and pusher on the front and bigger industrial blower on the back.
> This type of set up by the time you purchase everything will put you in the $100K range.
> Perhaps a 7000 series Deere with 14 ft. pusher on the loader and a 8 1/2 ft. blower on the 3 point hitch.


On the AG tractor, can you turn the operator station around like a backhoe?

Doing alot of blowing looking over your shoulder would be a chiropractic nightmare.

I believe we'll be in the 170K area for the equipment we're looking for either way.
But the AG tractor may suit our needs just as well. I'd just like to see some video of that 8.5' snow blower on the back.


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## IMAGE

miniwarehousing;1223020 said:


> Image...Thanks for the input. Our issue is moving the windrows from one end to the other. That is where we feel we have our issue.
> Can you let me know what the average cost of the Normand blowers go for?


It varies greatly on which model you choose. If your looking for one to run off the PTO on a 7000 series Deere like blowerman referenced, then a N104-342TR is rated up to 150hp. It's between 13-15k depending on the discharge shoot and other options you would want.

Here's a link to that blowers spec sheet. Page 4 shows specs. It's the one in the very right hand column.
http://www.cienormand.com/depliant/english/Souffleuse_Normand_eng.pdf

When you get your post count over 10(or is it 15 now?), you will be able to send and receive Private Messages on this forum. When you can, send me a PM and we can narrow down a price.:salute:


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## IMAGE

miniwarehousing;1223174 said:


> On the AG tractor, can you turn the operator station around like a backhoe?
> 
> Doing alot of blowing looking over your shoulder would be a chiropractic nightmare.
> 
> I believe we'll be in the 170K area for the equipment we're looking for either way.
> But the AG tractor may suit our needs just as well. I'd just like to see some video of that 8.5' snow blower on the back.


Blowerman can help you with tractor selection if your looking for one that you can rotate the operator station on. Thumbs Up

If you wanted an inverted blower that blows snow while you drive forward, then a N102-310 INV would run between $9,500-11,500 again depending on options. That blower is rated for 120hp. :salute:

More info on it at: http://www.cienormand.com/anglais/snowblower_inverted_normand.htm


----------



## leon

*snow etc.*



miniwarehousing;1223174 said:


> On the AG tractor, can you turn the operator station around like a backhoe?
> 
> Doing alot of blowing looking over your shoulder would be a chiropractic nightmare.
> 
> "no its not as long as you an open station tractor. as the hydro transmission allows easy control of the tractor with the left foot on the directional pedal"
> 
> I believe we'll be in the 170K area for the equipment we're looking for either way.
> But the AG tractor may suit our needs just as well. I'd just like to see some video of that 8.5' snow blower on the back.


Go to the pronovost.qb.ca. web site if you want to see a video of their PXPL's and other models.

Many purchasers of the PXPL units mount them on conventional row crop tractors with forward facing seats as many of the seats are capable of being turned to the right and locked if desired. You will spend much less money on Kubota 8540 Narrow and a PXPL-86 with all the bells and whistles.

If you simply want to remove windrows and built up snow packs, Pronovost has a 54 inch rear mounted sidewalk snow thrower for 50+ horse power tractors-lots less money with the 8540 narrow Kubota.


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## miniwarehousing

leon;1223139 said:


> If you want a price for a Normand, S. Houle, or a Pronovost PXPL-86, you should
> send Paul Vanderzon an inquiry on a copy of your letter head.


And where do I send Paul a letter to? 
I'd be interested in the Normands.


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## leon

*snow*

His business address is in his public infomation on the web site here.


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## miniwarehousing

leon;1223268 said:


> Go to the pronovost.qb.ca. web site if you want to see a video of their PXPL's and other models.
> 
> Many purchasers of the PXPL units mount them on conventional row crop tractors with forward facing seats as many of the seats are capable of being turned to the right and locked if desired. You will spend much less money on Kubota 8540 Narrow and a PXPL-86 with all the bells and whistles.
> 
> If you simply want to remove windrows and built up snow packs, Pronovost has a 54 inch rear mounted sidewalk snow thrower for 50+ horse power tractors-lots less money with the 8540 narrow Kubota.


Leon,
The provost Industrial blowers look up to our task, but I'd like to find out about dealers and parts supply when something breaks.
At least with the Normand, it seems that there are a couple US dealers.

The 8540 seems a bit small for our needs. I feel you're not comprehending out site and size of what we have to clear. Everything you suggest is very small scale and would take us days to complete clearing of snow. I see you're in the north east. Where abouts? 
You have a lot of knowledge and I'd love for you to come to the site with the snow we have to show you the magnitude of what needs to be accomplished. 
After seeing what other sites use and what is currently used, it appears we need larger equipment than you've been recommending.
Come to our site and Id be happy to hear your opinions.


----------



## leon

*snow etc.*



miniwarehousing;1223370 said:


> Leon,
> The provost Industrial blowers look up to our task, but I'd like to find out about dealers and parts supply when something breaks.
> At least with the Normand, it seems that there are a couple US dealers.
> 
> The 8540 seems a bit small for our needs. I feel you're not comprehending out site and size of what we have to clear. Everything you suggest is very small scale and would take us days to complete clearing of snow. I see you're in the north east. Where abouts?
> You have a lot of knowledge and I'd love for you to come to the site with the snow we have to show you the magnitude of what needs to be accomplished.
> After seeing what other sites use and what is currently used, it appears we need larger equipment than you've been recommending.
> Come to our site and Id be happy to hear your opinions.


The picture you provided is very good in quality and is very clear.

Architects come in 2 flavors, function before form, or form before function in layout design, issues with storage, parking using facing parking spaces rather than single slanted parking spaces, sunken loading docks UGGGHHH!

I am hoping to come to Beantown in the near future.

The roller chains, shearpins, sprockets, and hydraulic cylinders for the PXPL-86 and others are off the shelf items available at farm equipment dealers.

The hydraulic hoses are off the shelf items and can be ordered from pronovost if desired or purchased locally from a hydraulic repair shop.

The cylinders, including the sraper pair can be rebuilt or spares can be purchased at tractor supply or Pronovost, the chute rotation motor is either rebuildable or an over the shoulder scrap item as the geroller motors have only the neck mounting flange and motor base that is salvagable.

I am unsure who makes the gearbox but thats a judgement call with your inventory or an overnight item from Tudor and Jones in Weedsport, New York USA as they are the Northeast
USA stocking distributor for Pronovost Machineries Canada.

The wear surface material between the chute and the auger housing can be replaced and purchased from Pronovost as a repair part or the same material can be purchased from McmasterCarr and others, The cutting edges and the scraper blade edges can be purchased from Pronovost.

The metric bolts, nuts and washers are available from a good hardware store that has a good inventory of nuts and bolts.

The roller bearings like all roller bearings are metric and available at Kaman Bearing and other bearing retailers.

The PTO shaft is a Eurocardan and is very long lived. The spiders/U joints are also very heavy duty in strength of materials.

Everything comes on two skids and takes very little work to put together; The blower comes without the hydraulic couplers and I am unsure if that has changed.

You need a tractor with a type 2 three point hitch to mount it.

IF you have to buy hydraulic couplers you need to buy the best aeroquip couplers for the hose which is an 8 or 10 hose size 1/2 or 5/8 inch-sorry its been a while.

About the Kubota M8540 narrow it is a utility tractor designed for narrow vineyard and orchard rows and has an all weather cabin with positive cabin ventilation.

It has a low center of gravity and a very large amount of window glass.

With winter weather it comes down to time and space priorities with plowing and snow removal.


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## leon

*snow continued*

Are you folks the Bluebird or Thomas school bus folks?

First; the access roads have to be
plowed back, and salt laid down 
if needed after plowing

Second; the parking lots and office
parking must be plowed and or salted

snow removed and disposed of if needed.

Third; warehouse recieving and shipping 
docks must be cleared.

snow removed and disposed of if needed

Fourth; the acccess roads and spaces for 
trailers must be opened for trailer shuffling 
and dancing with the yard tractor polka to 
move out loaded trailers and move in the right 
trailers to be loaded.

a. access spaces opened for inventory transfer 
from lots to plant.

Road snow shoulders should be removed to
avoid build up if excess winds are a problem.

a. after hours removal with a double auger 
snow blower blowing it into the tree line
if possible.

======================================================================

With your physical plant layout it may be be better to
examine leasing a small snow melter for a season 
and decide if it is big enough to handle your needs.

As long as you have access to a storm drain its manna from 
heaven and you only use the melter when you want to remove 
a lot of snow.

Using Hokkaido. Japan as an example they have very heavy snows 
and no place to put it. they have ice melting stations where the municipal 
trucks back into the dump bay and in it goes into a huge water pool of 
heated water which melts the snow being dumped into it.

I am unsure if they are using the natural steam springs in the area or electricity 
from nuclear power and resistance heaters but the melt water is hot.

A small snow melter will use less fuel per hour but will cost less to operate 
per hour for fuel, you can always buy diesel to fire it when you need it and 
not have a tank to deal with and if you have multiple storm drains you can 
move it from place to place with the trailer hitch.

The snow could be piled and then later in the season melted and its gone.

If you have a drainage ditch and do not use salt It will work too. if you can add hose 
to the drain lines if so equiped.

More to think about candidly, but a snow melter would be of benefit with 
the plants layout the way it is.

What you want to accomplish is eliminating rehandling and stacking so a 
melter would do that but fuel cost is the issue per hour and leasing a snow
melter from september to may each year would be cost effective.

Not to name drop but Pronovost has a small herd of agricultrual trailers that are end or side dump trailers and could be used to transport snow when with lined slick liner nmaterial.
The trailer sides are low and have high flotatation tires alowing the use of an ag tractor and loader to fill it or filling it with a tractor mounted snow blower if it is towed with a second tractor.

You can add wooden sides to add capacity if desired. All it takes is patience and driving slowly in reverse with the snow blower to fill them

This would allow you to shove and dump and melt, shove and dump and melt, 
and have cetain areas where you can plan on melting when required when 
you have heavy fresh snow or when you have times when the snow 
accumulation is not an issue and you have piles to melt.

As long as the piled snow does not block the drains you will have natural 
melting with sunlight too.

Using a neighboring example:

The City of Oswego, New York has a snow dump to beat all snow dumps-
(except in Northern Japans case of course where they have snow mountains 
in places to get rid of snows)

The folks in Oswego, New York have so much snow some years they have
to measure thesnow depth at the snow dump EVERY day after snow 
season to determine if they need to bring out the snow caster to throw
the snow piles further back in anticipation of the next years snow load-
some years by june or july or later the snow is gone but the mass is so 
large that it is its own freezer and the ground is still frozen as well..


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## newhere

wow this is crazy, you guys must have money to burn. Snow melters, blowers, road graders geez

how about 2 1960-1970 cat 966's one with a box one with a blade 

and a one ton dump with a v blade and a tailgate salter.

All for under 40 grand easy and it will handle that site no problem.


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## leon

*snow*

No, its not crazy, the term is Logistics and is simply planning and more planning to overcome the exisiting natural orman made obstacle course that this facility is in total, and as every inch is used for transit or storage of finished goods inventory with limited narrow access lanes in the entire plant site, as well as limited egress for snow removal and disposal. as the containers are not stacked and as a result land area is wasted due to the containers left occupying the space and limiting the stockpiling of raw materials in a smaller area and cosuming more square feet of surface area in the property in question.

One cannot reponsibly assume a one size fits all machine and attachment will or may accomplish the task at all hours and low visibility conditions with natural light and artificial lighting if any which distorts clearances for passing equipment box plows without marker lights to delineate the attachment position in low light conditions.

Damaged raw materials are unusable raw materials, damaged storage is unusable storage, and as storage of materials occurs over the entire plant site, the existing routing lanes and narrow lane isles must be considered in the PLANNING for snow removal, if all weather all hours operation is a necessity for the facility in question to create the finished goods required.

one mile per hour is 88 feet per minute 
two miles per hour is 176 feet per minute
three miles per hour is 264 feet per minute 
four miles per hour is 352 feet per minute 
five miles pe rhour is 440 feet per minute

At three miles per hour a grader covering 12- feet of cut passes over 3,168 feet per minute plowing with the belly blade
At three miles per hour a grader covering 8- foot of cut passes over 2,112 feet per minute plowing with the belly blade pulled in to the left or right.

A rear mounted snow thrower is discharging snow continually in one direction from A to Z where it can dispose of all snows it is castng rearward with the chute directing the snow towards the rear as it advances.

let us say the snow is foot deep and snow blower is the PXPL-86 
and for convenience sake it is seven feet wide

The distance is 1,000 feet in one direction to where the tractor and snow blower can dispose of the snow fall with zero issues.

The snow is one foot deep and packed form snow melt so it may weigh 40 pounds per cubic foot the 1000 by 7 foot block has 28.000 pounds of snow in it 14 tons; as long as the tractor can advance because it is removing this snow at all times and blowing it ahead of its self it can remove it at one, two, or three miles per hour or faster where the PXPL can be used as a plow in either direction.

At one mile per hour it covers this distance in slightly over eleven minutes removing 14 tons of snow- 70 tons per hour.
At two miles per hour it covers this distance in slightly les than six minutes removing 14 tons of snow-140 tons per hour. 
At three miles per hour it covers this distance in almost four minutes removing 14 tons of snow 210 tons per hour.

The impeller will remove snow fraster than the cross augers can deliver it to the impeller and it will always be ahead in tonnage.
because the impeller os rotating at 540 revolutions per minute-nine times per second times the impeller drum s volume to discharge snow.

The snow thrower is only removing the the snow directly in front of the cross auger and simply throwing it ahead breaking
it up making it smaller so the snow load might reach fifty pounds per cubic foot across the entire cross auger width and 
wiegh no more than 350 pounds per foot of travel AT ANY TIME.

A plow is pushing this snow load and the wieght of the snow becomes a natural barrier totally dependent upon time temperature snow melt ansd snow melting chemicals if any.

Before any one says it the snow blower is ontinually advancing with the snow accumulation and not rehandling it and once its at the end all the snow is 
GONE.


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## unimogr

> The Schmidt P-500 is a single stage high tonnage snow thrower and
> can be mounted a farm tractor just as well as a Unimog.
> 
> The Schmidt eastern USA dealer is in Vermont.


Do you have contact info on that Vermont dealer? May be cheaper to get my parts there over Germany. The Wisconsin Schmidt dealer I last contacted must have had gold plated parts based on his pricing.


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## bubba11

newhere;1223552 said:


> wow this is crazy, you guys must have money to burn. Snow melters, blowers, road graders geez
> 
> how about 2 1960-1970 cat 966's one with a box one with a blade
> 
> and a one ton dump with a v blade and a tailgate salter.
> 
> All for under 40 grand easy and it will handle that site no problem.


i have to agree with newhere on this one a couple of wheel loaders or tractors with pushers and a dump with a plow would probably do the trick and cost the least. some of the suggestions are a little out there, maybe leon is a used grader salesman. what do they use now to clear it?


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## bubba11

bubba11;1225062 said:


> i have to agree with newhere on this one a couple of wheel loaders or tractors with pushers and a dump with a plow would probably do the trick and cost the least. some of the suggestions are a little out there, maybe leon is a used grader salesman. what do they use now to clear it?


to answer your original question i have a volvo l70d loader and i am very happy with it. i think that any late model wheel loader of any brand will work fine though and as it has been said a thousand times the most important thing about choosing a brand is finding good dealer support


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## miniwarehousing

bubba11;1225062 said:


> i have to agree with newhere on this one a couple of wheel loaders or tractors with pushers and a dump with a plow would probably do the trick and cost the least. some of the suggestions are a little out there, maybe leon is a used grader salesman. what do they use now to clear it?


Right now they use a LARGE loader with a custom pusher, and 2 smaller loaders. They don't have any plows which is one of our pet peeves because they end up compacting the snow into a thin layer of NHL ice instead of scraping with a trip edge down to pavement.
I don't feel the company does it effeciently as they could/should, but I think it's because they want to get in, clear and be done. Where as us buying the machine, we can spend the next couple days moving snow and making more room.
A loader with a KAGE Industries or Snow Wolf box pusher/plow with a dump truck with v-plow would be the best. 
The point of my OP was to see what guys felt were the best loaders and why but it morphed into other options for us to look at.
Seeing some of the snow throws that exist out there are certainly an option that we may consider.



bubba11;1225149 said:


> to answer your original question i have a volvo l70d loader and i am very happy with it. i think that any late model wheel loader of any brand will work fine though and as it has been said a thousand times the most important thing about choosing a brand is finding good dealer support


I really like the L70. The Cat 924 or 930 are also looking like good options. Both are good local dealers and when asked what if it goes down, but say 24 hours or another machine is at your facility.


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## IMAGE

miniwarehousing;1225446 said:


> Right now they use a LARGE loader with a custom pusher, and 2 smaller loaders. They don't have any plows which is one of our pet peeves because they end up compacting the snow into a thin layer of NHL ice instead of scraping with a trip edge down to pavement.
> I don't feel the company does it effeciently as they could/should, but I think it's because they want to get in, clear and be done. Where as us buying the machine, we can spend the next couple days moving snow and making more room.
> A loader with a KAGE Industries or Snow Wolf box pusher/plow with a dump truck with v-plow would be the best.
> The point of my OP was to see what guys felt were the best loaders and why but it morphed into other options for us to look at.
> Seeing some of the snow throws that exist out there are certainly an option that we may consider.
> 
> I really like the L70. The Cat 924 or 930 are also looking like good options. Both are good local dealers and when asked what if it goes down, but say 24 hours or another machine is at your facility.


Any Loader with any pusher box or plow can leave that thin layer that turns to ice. A truck and a plow can leave that thin layer also. The choice is usually plow every inch with the storm to get to it before before anyone drives on it, or to double/triple scrape the lot after the storm - but those just help, don't cure the thin layer of ice. An ice melter like salt or brine is whats needed to stop the snow/ice from bonding to the pavement, or to melt it off after the fact.

Either apply the brine before the storm, and it will help keep the snow from sticking to the pavement, so when you plow it plows up easy and doesn't ice up as bad. Or salt it off after plowing. Probally a combination of both. Your current contractor can probally do this for you if you talk to them about the ice. Have you talked to them about it?


----------



## leon

*snow*



bubba11;1225062 said:


> i have to agree with newhere on this one a couple of wheel loaders or tractors with pushers and a dump with a plow would probably do the trick and cost the least. some of the suggestions are a little out there, maybe leon is a used grader salesman. what do they use now to clear it?


Excuse me,

but if your not happy with my being thorough with a person I do not know,
nor have any need to sell an implement, wherein your inferrring "I am a little out there" inferring I have mental problem is both callous, sad and dissapointing.

Snow removal in congested industrial spaces with narrow travelways requires PLANNING and when massive areas containing obstacles like semi trailers, shipping containers,
inventory exposed to the elements that must be maintained and left open for access and movement of these materials and require movement of snowloads, and very small lanes for movement of both machinery used in a factory settting requiring massive amounts of material movement.

This gentleman is unfortunately saddled with dealing with an architects "form before function" design which was approved, implemented and constructed, and the resulting bottle necks are obvious simply from the aerial view he was kind enough to provide asking for advice.

Snow removal with mobile equipment requires labor, time and productive implements to dispose of the snow load quickly which is why the "grader and wing blade were items I mentioned as well as a Pronovost PXPL-86 snow blower and the Kubota M8540 Narrow Untility Tractor which allows quick movement, snow removal and scrapping of the lanes in the same operations.

Thats why the City of New York, New York has snowplows on its garbage trucks as they travel everywhere and they no longer have a heavy plow fleet when the garbage packers travel everywhere.

AND before you say it "The City of New York consisting of the five bourroughs being,
Brooklyn, Bronx, Manhattan, Staten Island and, Queens, comprising New York County., 
they can never prepare for massive storms because they have no room nor the infrastructure to deal with heavy wet snows and also deal with the congestion created by automobiles stuck and abandoned by thier owners because they have no snow tires and no where to dispose of heavy snowfalls due to the abandoned automobiles.

Why would I bother to explain in great detail what a small snow blower mounted on a utility tractor can do for him by explaining in great detail how quickly and how efficiently it can remove heavy snows or the net benefits of a "small" snow melter to this gentleman?

I will tell you why; simply to make his work easier by by removing the snow from the areas and eliminating any build ups, snow stacking, ice, line of sight vision problems because of snow drifts and piles with machinery used to transfer and disperse semi trailers and inventorys of unfinished and finished good in this congested environment?.

Why do you think they use snow melters in parking garages? the roof is as a parking lot and you have snow on the roof and it has to be removed to make room for automobiles to PARK THERE.

Municipalities have to clean parking areas for county buildings with loaders and dump trucks to keep facilities open to the public and use 10 wheeler trucks to dispose of it and this costs me money ands it can be done a better way with snow melter or less money per season where one employee is needed to do the job versus three to five employees when a foreman, flagger, loader operator, and two or more truck drivers are needed to remove the snow fall in this area when the smallest snow melter is all that is needed simply because the storm drain exists in the parking lot and at the curb cut.

.
"You know you have to question your county government when"

Your told Quote- you have to much experience to be an overnight shift greaser and equipment refueler-Unquote.

"Your brilliant county highway superintendent who has a doctorate in civil engineering to be a licenced civil engineer to practice civil engineering" makes the idiotic published public statement Quote- sand costs more than salt Unquote which in so doing violating basic accounting standards of conduct for governmental accounting and BASIC MATH.

It makes me really wonder where we get these people, when sand is 4 dollars a ton in the off season, and these fools are spending 40 dollars a ton for Halite for a bare roads policy that does not exist on paper.

Snow removal requires more than a blade or the machine behind it to push it, it requires geometry, basic math, machinery that will allow one to cover the area in the shortest time possible wherein I suggested a late model used grader or the Volvo 690 six wheel drive
road grader, wing plow, and snow chains for the six wheel drive to effficiently plow acccess roads and entrance lanes where possible plowing 8 to 20-feet wide where possible in the example covering the same ground in less time with less work.

"The difference between civilization and barbarism
may be measured by the degree of safety to life, property,
and the pursuit of various calling that men are engaged in".

James J. Hill


----------



## CityGuy

Just throwing out an idea here. I remember seeing a tractor type unit that the seat could be turned completly around and did not really have a "front" to it. I thought it had a loader on the front and had hydros to the rear for blowers and such. I think it was made by new holland or ford?

Found link:

http://agriculture.newholland.com/u...tor/Pages/Products_overview.aspx?nhpid=TV6070 BidirectionalTM


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## miniwarehousing

That tractor aint cheap. Wholly COW!!
It's $140K without any options like a bucket!


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## bubba11

miniwarehousing;1226932 said:


> That tractor aint cheap. Wholly COW!!
> It's $140K without any options like a bucket!


here is a link to some pics of the one i get to run. for running a blower it doesn't get much better that one of these with there hydrostatic trans. for pushing snow i would rather use a wheel loader, they burn alot more fuel than a wheel loader or tractor. it is kind of odd you can't order one without a loader but it doesn't come with a bucket
http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=99513


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## leon

*snow etc.*

As I have no way to forward this information and the links for miniwarehousing-

please find the items offered below:
Caterpillar 140G road grader-used

www.clevelandbrothersused_detailphp?typeG&id=uc12025

Asking price $78,750.00 plus tax for the first grader listed, and its serial numbered sister is directly below it 
with the same asking price with 362 less hours

Full contact details are shown with the road grader pictured


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## bubba11

as Image suggested it might not be a bad idea to talk to the company that is currently plowing it now about the ice problem before you start buying equipment. if your still looking to buy you should check out Horst blades either the snowwing or a blade with ends you can flip up so you can have a normal angle blade or a box. here is the link http://hlasnow.com/snowwing.php


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## miniwarehousing

bubba11;1227333 said:


> as Image suggested it might not be a bad idea to talk to the company that is currently plowing it now about the ice problem before you start buying equipment. if your still looking to buy you should check out Horst blades either the snowwing or a blade with ends you can flip up so you can have a normal angle blade or a box. here is the link http://hlasnow.com/snowwing.php


I'll take a look, thanks.
The current contractor is retiring and is selling his equipment, but it's all very old and "always breaking" as I've heard him say so many times. We also can't use salt because of the concrete we have.

Buying a machine will help keep some of those costs internal rather than external. We also can use the machine for many other tasks throughout the year, sweeping, mulching, brush clearing and also as back up fork lift.


----------



## leon

*snow removal*



miniwarehousing;1227625 said:


> I'll take a look, thanks.
> The current contractor is retiring and is selling his equipment, but it's all very old and "always breaking" as I've heard him say so many times. We also can't use salt because of the concrete we have.
> 
> Buying a machine will help keep some of those costs internal rather than external. We also can use the machine for many other tasks throughout the year, sweeping, mulching, brush clearing and also as back up fork lift.


========================================================================================================================================================================================================================

Please keep in mind that strictly depending upon the machine you examine that a four wheel drive machine will either

be equiped with no spin differentials or planetary axles which allow wheel spin; and either one WILL lose traction

without chains and loaded tires- been there done that for 22 years as they are useless on ice without chains and

loaded tires.

As far as deicing goes you can use hammermilled limestone to deice your property and access roads with much less cost.

Hammermilled limestone as been used for years as a deicer for airport runways we used at our local airport for many years

until the cost became greater than rock salt in 1987, They may have gone back to using ground limestone by now with

salt being 40 dollars a ton some years.

The current base price for a Kubota 4 wheel drive M8540 with a 12 speed hydroshuttle shift with the delux cabin pressurised cabin is $43.769

The front end loader, fork lift kit with with 2 lever quick attachment kit and self leveling front loader bring the cost up to $50,032.00 USD+tax

with the rest of the attachments including a pendulum spreader for limestone for deicing, sweeping, flail mower for all mowing and a bucket may add $20 -25,000.00

to the total cost depending upon the size of pendulum spreader you purchase as you will be able to deice with the spreader and it will outlast a spinner spreader

with nothing more rinsing it out with warm water to keep it clean .

Please contact me at [email protected] if you so desire to do so.


----------

