# Opinions on leasing a skidsteer...Worth it?



## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

Hey guys, thanks in advance for any opinions you can give me on this.

I own a property management company, relatively small in size, and i am going to be bringing our snow removal needs in house for next year. I have not been pleased with the service this year. I spend half a day just checking properties and getting the dude to do a good job. I figure i might as well just spend a whole day and do them all myself and make some money doing so. I might do a little work for other people to make some extra cash..but not a lot. I am not looking to make this into a full fledge snow company at this point. Serve my existing clients and make some decent money doing it.

Initially my plan was to buy a skidsteer, maybe a model 3 or so years back. Price range around 25-30k range for price.

Now i sat down with the local dealer here for bobcats, and the leasing terms sound pretty good to me. Thats what i want thoughts on.

They offer leases for the snow season, Starting October i believe through march. Cost is one time $3,600 up front payment. You get 160 hours with that. Then every hour over that is $25 an hour. They cover all maintenance, tires, will give you a loaner machine while yours is getting fixed etc etc. This is a large reputable dealer and the primary in the area, and have a large service department. You need to have a trailer, and any attachments you want to use such as snow bucket or blower. It comes with a regular dirt style bucket.

Heres my logic why this is a good deal. So from what i have been researching, if i buy a new comparable machine to what they will lease me, it will cost me about 30k (not counting attachments). I figure their $25/hour charge is at least minimum what i should be budgeting for maintenance myself anyways if i bought a machine. So for those 160 hours im getting it at $22 per hour about. If you need to budget this as a business operator anyways on an owned machine, why is this a bad deal if i at least use the 160 hours? Especially with the convenience of no down time because they can supply me a loaner machine at no cost. About the lowest i have seen here for people billing skidsteer work in the winter is like $110/hour. Do i lose money on this if i bill my clients say $80/hour? at 80 i feel like im really being paid like 40-50 an hour once accounting for gas. That is OK with me.

So i could lease this for 8 years before i paid the cost of owning a machine? But also from what i have read here on these forms, after using a machine 10 years or more you probably are going to replace it anyways. But really, the cost of owning a machine would be much more than the $25/hour cost...right? Because the machine loses value by quite a bit.

It seems like to me i am getting the use of a very new machine for cost of maintenance. I think they do this here in order to have more used machines to sell? I don't see how they can make a ton of money off this if they aren't charging much more than costs to run it not counting gas.

Am i missing anything here? Someone tell me why this is a bad deal for me just so i can see the other side of it.

Thank you.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

You're missing fuel costs, labor costs, insurance costs, cost of a pusher, and other operating costs....

How are you going to salt?

Kick your half ass guy to the curb and hire a true professional. Quite trying to sell on price and actually offer good service (everyone sells for $110 an hour and you want to sell at $80...really???). Not a great business model


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

JMHConstruction said:


> You're missing fuel costs, labor costs, insurance costs, cost of a pusher, and other operating costs....
> 
> How are you going to salt?
> 
> Kick your half ass guy to the curb and hire a true professional. Quite trying to sell on price and actually offer good service (everyone sells for $110 an hour and you want to sell at $80...really???). Not a great business model


I did figure fuel sales guy told me they use around 2-2.5 gallons an hour?, i would be labor. Insurance will be a big one i need to look at yet yes. I believe i would have enough work to cover these things. I would invest in the attachments i need and trailer.

None of the small lots i do here need salt. I would salt by hand/bucket any sidewalks.

I am not trying to offer the $80 to undercut and steal business from anyone, primarily for my current property management clients i want to provide a good value for them, as an add on service to my property management business. I am looking to get paid fairly is all. I wouldn't offer the same price if i decide to go out and do work for other parties.

Thank you very much for your thoughts!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

What is it your not happy with of your current Contractor?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

If the cheapest guy is at $110 an hour for a machine, makes you wonder if there is something to that... 

I’m with Matt on this one.

Here is the better question... if lowest guy is $110... why would you go $80 and leave $30 on the table?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I agree, need more details on what the current guy isn't doing to your satisfaction. 
You are also not figuring in having to get up at all hours of the night to check on the weather ( because the forecast is often wrong for any given area, often by several hours) or getting up at all hours and actually having to go to work and do something. And that most of the time when it does snow it's going to be on a weekend when you did have plans.
And your going to do all this because we have to assume your current guy doesn't and you think you can do a better job then him.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Yes, it's a easy job.

Everyone should do it, I especially enjoyex after hour 6 or 16 while crawling out of the icey machine.


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## shawn_ (Jan 19, 2014)

My comment might not matter but if my competition does it for 110 I price it at 150$ I let work, dependability & perfectness speak for its self with the price . Never go lower


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

People lease the machines to earn money not to save money. They have those prices figured to a science like a casino. They ain’t giving these thing away like Kias. 

What if heavy events next year and you use it for 300hrs- oh well it’s double the price?

Look at guys around you or nice looking lots. Call them for a quote.


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## bliz&hinikerDLR (Dec 30, 2011)

The OP’s question is in regards to leasing, not service price or value. The big decider here should be risk vs. return on investment.
This is your first year doing this. You might hate it and want to be done after one year. Do you think if you have to sell your new machine after one year you won’t have to take some loss of value? Do you like selling used equipment? You are a one man show and have no backup. This machine must work, if it goes down and you own it, how will you fill that gap?
You’ve done the math and see that you can make money at the lease rate. Owning the machine will not drastically increase your profit but does significantly increase your risk. I see no reason not to lease for the first season and then re-evaluate after the season.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Will you be trailering during a storm? How far away are your lots?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

The lease, on the numbers, and the loaner machine, sounds good.
The hours seem low to me, you could easy put 50 a week on it. And I doubt it's going to snow in Oct. But there's a very good chance it will in April ( here anyway) and that's not in the lease.

During our last 3 day event, on day 3, at 4:30 am . I pull up to the intersection on the way to an account. Across the intersection is a low boy semi with a loader on it.
It's a major highway, not reallya noticable thing.
I turn into my account, it's one we do the walks and dumpster area of a restaurant and someone else does the lot. So it's always super when we are there before them, and I was surprised I was.
Then I see their loader around the corner of the building next door with 2 service trucks working on it.
I look in my rearview mirror and the lowboy truck is dropping his trailer in the lot.
This was a Case loader. Now that's a lease! Got a service technician out in the middle of the night and s replacement delivered and the broken one hauled off, in the middle of the night!.
I could mention that this contractor had his Deere loaders repo'ed already this year. And wherever this Case dealer is, it isn't in town, he's burned most of his bridges here. So they came from at least 30 miles away.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

FredG said:


> What is it your not happy with of your current Contractor?


He is very slow, sometimes our buildings do not get done for 48 hours +. Even the couple commercial properties we have he assured it would be done before business open and it just hasn't been the case. I am pretty sure he is prioritizing other clients over us.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

jonniesmooth said:


> I agree, need more details on what the current guy isn't doing to your satisfaction.
> You are also not figuring in having to get up at all hours of the night to check on the weather ( because the forecast is often wrong for any given area, often by several hours) or getting up at all hours and actually having to go to work and do something. And that most of the time when it does snow it's going to be on a weekend when you did have plans.
> And your going to do all this because we have to assume your current guy doesn't and you think you can do a better job then him.


You bring up very good points about having to get up very early. That is the major consideration i have to decide if i want to deal with. I have done my property management for about 10 years now, so i am not a stranger to having to wake up for emergencies.

Though waking up and going to deal with a 2am emergency for a couple hours is definitely different than waking up at 2am then working for 10 hours.

Thank you for the input!


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

1olddogtwo said:


> Yes, it's a easy job.
> 
> Everyone should do it, I especially enjoyex after hour 6 or 16 while crawling out of the icey machine.


Sorry if i implied the job is easy, i know it is not easy. I have many people say property management is easy as well until they actually do it!

So i didn't mean to imply that.

Thanks for the input.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

cjames808 said:


> People lease the machines to earn money not to save money. They have those prices figured to a science like a casino. They ain't giving these thing away like Kias.
> 
> What if heavy events next year and you use it for 300hrs- oh well it's double the price?
> 
> Look at guys around you or nice looking lots. Call them for a quote.


If i end up using more hours, they charge $25/hour. That still doesn't seem like a bad rate is it? There is no limit on how many hours you can put on at that rate during the time i have.

I would be billing my clients in a way that i am covered if i go over on my expected number of hours to do my buildings.

Thanks for your input.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

jonniesmooth said:


> The lease, on the numbers, and the loaner machine, sounds good.
> The hours seem low to me, you could easy put 50 a week on it. And I doubt it's going to snow in Oct. But there's a very good chance it will in April ( here anyway) and that's not in the lease.
> 
> During our last 3 day event, on day 3, at 4:30 am . I pull up to the intersection on the way to an account. Across the intersection is a low boy semi with a loader on it.
> ...


Hey thanks for replying. Yes it does snow here in April and that is something i have not figured out the solution to yet. Thank you for bringing that up again it reminded me i need to find a way to get around this, or the cost to rent it for that additional period if needed.

Going over on the hours doesn't seem like an issue to me, because its a fixed cost of $25/hour however many hours i need to on it. So if i bill accordingly, i feel i should be OK.

My logic says, if owning a machine i would have to put away that much anyways per hour for maintenance costs...why not lease and get rid of the risk and cost of ownership. I prefer owning things dont get me wrong. This just seems much lower risk to me i guess.


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## 512high (Jan 18, 2010)

To the OP, I don't think anyone is trying to move you away from doing it yourself. Everyone that posted brought up legit questions, If your married have children(little ones?) being out for a longggg time during large events, locations of all properties? Are you better off getting a small wheel loader you can drive to them? I'm sorry but I didn't see, salting/walkways?

Off season any use for skid? or wheel loader? I do think everyone here gave great advice, maybe even find a nice used piece after this season/re-group, maybe guys closer to you have equipment coming up for sale soon. Anyways, I also want to thank the OP for trying to thank everyone that posted a question, doesn't happen all the time, sometimes the OP never returns after members give their two cents.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

512high said:


> To the OP, I don't think anyone is trying to move you away from doing it yourself. Everyone that posted brought up legit questions, If your married have children(little ones?) being out for a longggg time during large events, locations of all properties? Are you better off getting a small wheel loader you can drive to them? I'm sorry but I didn't see, salting/walkways?
> 
> Off season any use for skid? or wheel loader? I don't everyone here gave great advice, maybe even find a nice used piece after this season/re-group, maybe guys closer to you have equipment coming up for sale soon. Anyways, I also want to thank the OP for trying to thank everyone that posted a question, doesn't happen all the time, sometimes the OP never returns after members give their two cents.


Hey thanks you for the input. I agree, and i am OK with the replies that seem to tell me not to do it. I wanted all views.

I have a walk behind Snow blower and a flat bed on my pick up now. i have been doing the sidewalks on a handful of buildings last winter and this winter. I just salt by hand the sidewalks, no lots that i manage require any gravel or salting of the actually lots.

How reliable have you found used equipment to be? That is the one major concern i have and maybe its what is pushing me to lease. If my machine goes down, i am screwed unless there is a backup. I would be a one man show, and a one machine show.

And i really do appreciate all the replies positive or negative. Nobody here owes me anything or needs to take their time to give their opinion. So i really do appreciate the conversation on it.


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## 512high (Jan 18, 2010)

I have had good luck on "used", if you're not familiar with certain types of equipment, maybe bring a friend or someone that does when looking. Some times you can get a deal or a demo, and once you figure what you need, be a skid/wheel loader/ maybe an enclosed tractor/blower combo. I would say ask HERE, maybe CASE guys, DEERE, CAT, BOBCAT etc.Kubota tractors, everyone is going to have an opinion, , if Skid steer, track or wheel? bucket or pusher?

And all I can say, if you decide on something and purchase, like others say, dealer support!!! nearby by?


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

$3600 seems plenty fair to me for an entire winters rental. Since we don't know your budget, you'll have to look at what you've been paying your current provider and decide if you can still make a profit that's worth your while after making that $3600 payment. If you won't use the machine outside of pushing snow then I would certainly lease at that $3600 price.
PS your not wrong to think $80 is what you should charge-$75 to $95/hour is the going rate for a skidsteer around here for dirtwork jobs, HOWEVER that price is only good if a job has a guaranteed 8-10 hours that take place during regular business hours. Snow removal is an emergency service that requires specialized equipment working in extreme weather during unusual hours with lots of mobilization and trailering. You should be getting compensated for that.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

512high said:


> I have had good luck on "used", if you're not familiar with certain types of equipment, maybe bring a friend or someone that does when looking. Some times you can get a deal or a demo, and once you figure what you need, be a skid/wheel loader/ maybe an enclosed tractor/blower combo. I would say ask HERE, maybe CASE guys, DEERE, CAT, BOBCAT etc.Kubota tractors, everyone is going to have an opinion, , if Skid steer, track or wheel? bucket or pusher?
> 
> And all I can say, if you decide on something and purchase, like others say, dealer support!!! nearby by?


Thats one good thing about my location, the bobcat Sales HQ is here, and they build the Bobcats in the state. So the main dealer here is very responsive and their service department seems very equipped from what i can tell.

Thanks man!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

We have a "winter" lease on our Bobcat. We make 5 higher payments during winter months and about $50/month for 7 months. We are allowed 1,250 hours per year. We do perform normal maintenance, but we do get a loaner if it goes down.

It works well for us because with all the emissions crap and electronics on a Bobcat, I have no desire to own one for longer than 3 years, low hours or not. This also works well because if something changes customer wise, I just turn it in after 3 years and I can reconfigure equipment requirements. 

I am also doing this with a Deere 244K and a New Holland tractor. Same reasoning, different hour allowances. 

Not sure if your $3600 is the only payment you make? Unless you go over the hours allowed?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Kinport said:


> PS your not wrong to think $80 is what you should charge-$75 to $95/hour is the going rate for a skidsteer around here for dirtwork jobs, HOWEVER that price is only good if a job has a guaranteed 8-10 hours that take place during regular business hours. Snow removal is an emergency service that requires specialized equipment working in extreme weather during unusual hours with lots of mobilization and trailering. You should be getting compensated for that.


I hate to say it, but you contradict yourself. First $80 is good because dirt work goes for that under certain circumstances then you say he should get compensated for being an emergency service. $5 over the lowest rate is not living large in snow. Factor in insurance, labor to haul it around, load and unload unless he can drive from account to account and his actual dollars per hour wouldn't be close to $80 or $75. If the others are in the $110 range, there's likely a good reason for that. And it would be foolish to cut his rate by $30\hour just because he thinks he can make money at that rate, despite not having any experience in snow and ice management.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Sorry, i probably didn't word that very well, but when I said he should be compensated for the extra effort I meant he should be at (at least) $110 an hour, and the lower rates are only good If he's getting consistent, reliable hours with no unusual circumstances. (which is not the case for snow removal) My apologies for the confusion


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Baumbach19 said:


> Though waking up and going to deal with a 2am emergency for a couple hours is definitely different than waking up at 2am then working for 10 hours.


10 hours? Who handles your normal workload while you're plowing? Who handles it if you go home and go to bed at noon?

What about when it snows day after day after day. This year has been light, don't base it on the weather this season.

Snow and ice management is similar to farming, specifically dairy farming. You are married to your job (even more than your wife) for basically 6 months out of the year. You wake up in the morning and check the forecast and radar...right after checking your weather rock. Multiple times throughout the day, you check the weather. You wake up multiple times during the night when the guessers can't even look out the window and give a correct report. Your life revolves around this business...holidays, birthdays, whatever days. Heck, I worked for 19 hours on my birthday this year. Got up at midnight and started all over again. And the next night.

Who is going to handle that 2 AM emergency if you're in the middle of a blizzard? That's going to cost you money to have someone else handle it..is that accounted for in the $80/hour? Have you looked into insurance? How much are the attachments and what are their costs per hour? Cutting edges wear out on plows and blowers. What if fuel goes back up to $4/gallon?

I'm not saying property management is easy, but snow and ice management is not buying\leasing a piece of equipment, putting a plow on it and going out and doing the work. There is far more to it than I think you are taking into account.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

You got to be ready to commit to the way of life. If you got to commit to a 20 hour day what about your management duties? What about drifting the following day, stacking. No salt? Why is this? 

In a case of a slip and fall being a property management person you should know this is risky especially with you admitting to salting the sidewalk where salt will be present and not the parking area.

What would be your defense? I was smart enough to salt sidewalks but ignored the parking area to be safe. Not to discourage you but the odds of management self performing with snow and ice are very slim with success.

Good Luck.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

FredG said:


> You got to be ready to commit to the way of life. If you got to commit to a 20 hour day what about your management duties? What about drifting the following day, stacking. No salt? Why is this?
> 
> In a case of a slip and fall being a property management person you should know this is risky especially with you admitting to salting the sidewalk where salt will be present and not the parking area.
> 
> ...


Thats interesting i never thought about salting the lots.

I have actually never heard of, at least around here, of people salting the parking lots. Its usually just the walks. There is a very large lot i rent spots in that a larger company does the snow for a restaurant, they do not salt or do anything other than clear the lot.

Maybe its a regional thing? I am fairly confident nobody here does gravel or salt in almost any lots.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Baumbach19 said:


> Thats interesting i never thought about salting the lots.
> 
> I have actually never heard of, at least around here, of people salting the parking lots. Its usually just the walks. There is a very large lot i rent spots in that a larger company does the snow for a restaurant, they do not salt or do anything other than clear the lot.
> 
> Maybe its a regional thing? I am fairly confident nobody here does gravel or salt in almost any lots.


 Salting sidewalks and ignoring the parking area is a admission of guilt. There is no more or less danger of a slip and fall in the parking area versus sidewalk. I myself have meant the blacktop more than once before my lots were spread. lol You don't want gravel unless you intend on cleaning it up in the spring.

We all think are assets are protected but now a days they go after future earnings if you leave the door open. Ambulance chasers are real and a very good success rate. Old Grandma Jones falls and busts a hip I'm certain a jury will think you were negligent.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Baumbach19 said:


> Thats interesting i never thought about salting the lots.
> 
> I have actually never heard of, at least around here, of people salting the parking lots. Its usually just the walks. There is a very large lot i rent spots in that a larger company does the snow for a restaurant, they do not salt or do anything other than clear the lot.
> 
> Maybe its a regional thing? I am fairly confident nobody here does gravel or salt in almost any lots.


As cold as it can be North Dakota, I'm guessing that's why people don't salt.SSalt does not need to be applied at every account, every walk, every lot. That's just silly talk.

I wouldn't get worried about it. You don't live in the east where nobody takes responsibility for their own actions.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not sure if your $3600 is the only payment you make? Unless you go over the hours allowed?


Ya its a one time payment of $3,600 up front. Then after the 160 hour mark, its just $25/hour charge after that. So if you return it after the season and have 260 hours on it, you would owe another 2,500 for the additional 100 hours.

It just seems to me that the cost of operating these maintenance wise in the long run will cost about $25/hour anyways wont it?

Thanks a lot for your input, and your words on the salting as well i was worried for a moment i missed something. But different climates call for different methods i guess. Not even large companies like walmart or anywhere i see they put salt in the lots. Only on the walk ways really.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

It don't get cold in the east. Tug hill, lake Placid it's just below zero almost each and everyday. All the plow trucks are empty just driving around. 

I will let the comment about no one takes responsibility in the east go considering where it came from.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

They definitely salt in Fargo.

__
http://instagr.am/p/B7pKtoPJFFU/


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jonniesmooth said:


> They definitely salt in Fargo.
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B7pKtoPJFFU/


 If they don't want to salt they should be spreading stone dust or similar and make a attempt to be safe. And buy a sweeper to clean it up in the spring, Instead of closing one eye to safety.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

They salt in Vancouver...


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

jonniesmooth said:


> They definitely salt in Fargo.
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/B7pKtoPJFFU/


 Interesting. I am trying to think where this would even be. Maybe some very large companies with very large lots. Im thinking maybe the mall or like walmart type large companies? I know the city does on the main roads. Maybe hotels do it?

I mean i am small compared to some management companies, only manage 150 units or so. But i have never heard of having to lay salt with trucks like that in parking areas.

Learn something new every day!


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Baumbach19 said:


> Interesting. I am trying to think where this would even be. Maybe some very large companies with very large lots. Im thinking maybe the mall or like walmart type large companies? I know the city does on the main roads. Maybe hotels do it?
> 
> I mean i am small compared to some management companies, only manage 150 units or so. But i have never heard of having to lay salt with trucks like that in parking areas.
> 
> Learn something new every day!


These guys seem to have come out of nowhere. But they have some serious skin in the game.

I have 3 apt. buildings that I do, one has commercial office space on the main level ( Dr's offices) this one we salt the walks and lots regularly. The other 2 buildings we only salt the lots if slippery conditions develop or if the temps are going to be near 30, then we will salt to help loosen the hard pack and then scrape them clear.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I have family in Fargo that owns a strip mall, and (i believe) they've told me their contractor salts. Other than that....I have no ideas on costs, how often, or any other details.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Who is going to handle that 2 AM emergency if you're in the middle of a blizzard?


Thank you for this thought.

That is a really good point. Sometimes an emergency at an apartment can't be ignored (pipe breaking etc need to meet plumber). So if i am in middle of plowing, and something needs to be handled, what then. Hmmm. Something to think about for sure.

I appreciate the feedback.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

JMHConstruction said:


> I have family in Fargo that owns a stip mall, and (i believe) they've told me their contractor salts. Other than that....I have no ideas on costs, how often, or any other details.


Thats really good to know. I had no idea all these buildings salt their lots. None of the contractor i have ever used, or apartments i have managed ever salt the lots unless its like crazy icy or something out of the ordinary.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I've been plowing for 35 years and after reading some of these comments I'm ready to head south lol.


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## bliz&hinikerDLR (Dec 30, 2011)

Don’t get me started on personal responsibility!:yow!:


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

OP, why are you focusing on a skid steer? Since you mentioned getting a trailer to transport it from site to site, I assume you have multiple small sites? Why not consider getting a plow for the truck you already have?


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Luther said:


> OP, why are you focusing on a skid steer? Since you mentioned getting a trailer to transport it from site to site, I assume you have multiple small sites? Why not consider getting a plow for the truck you already have?


 Well there you go, how did this take so long to be brought up ?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

leigh said:


> Well there you go, how did this take so long to be brought up ?


Some members actually answered his question?


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Some members actually answered his question?


Guess that caught me off guard ! I'm used to meandering aimlessly through threads that lose all direction and meaning.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

leigh said:


> Guess that caught me off guard ! I'm used to meandering aimlessly through threads that lose all direction and meaning.


#metoo


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

Luther said:


> OP, why are you focusing on a skid steer? Since you mentioned getting a trailer to transport it from site to site, I assume you have multiple small sites? Why not consider getting a plow for the truck you already have?


 Hey Thanks for bringing this up. I agree it would be much cheaper if i could use a plow. Issue being there are a handful of the properties that require i think something like skidsteer. I have also looked at getting a utility tractor setup.

Thats another question i had, is whats the benefit of a tractor setup verse a skid?

The driveways and turns on some of the properties and areas that need to be cleaned are too tight of a turn or small area that plow trucks cant maneuver very well in them. At least that is what im told my current and past snow people when they tell me X property needs a skidsteer.

Also i like the idea of having a loader for purposes of stacking it higher into piles.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Baumbach19 said:


> Thats another question i had, is whats the benefit of a tractor setup verse a skid?
> .


generally, a skidsteer will be quicker and more nimble to operate than a tractor.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Baumbach19 said:


> Issue being there are a handful of the properties that require i think something like skidsteer.


If you have "a handful" of properties to service loading and unloading and transporting a skid that many times in a snow storm would be a waist of time IMO and couldn't possibly require a skid steer.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

Luther said:


> If you have "a handful" of properties to service loading and unloading and transporting a skid that many times in a snow storm would be a waist of time IMO and couldn't possibly require a skid steer.


The reason it requires something like a skid steer is because of the tight quarters. The driveway and area we have to store the snow at some of the property would be difficult or impossible for a plow truck to get into the area and maneuver. Also piling the snow as high as we can is a benefit

At least thats what i am told and why they currently use a skid at these locations. Does that make sense to anyone? Is there properties where a truck with a plow just doesn't work?

One i know has a pretty narrow alley way that needs cleared, and his truck plow just did not fit, but i saw him clear it with a skid.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

seville009 said:


> generally, a skidsteer will be quicker and more nimble to operate than a tractor.


Thank you for this insight!


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Skid loader = 8000lbs ish?

Compact tractor... does not compare


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I was up in Rochester Minnesota and Sioux falls SD this winter, I was surprised how the lots looked and the lack of deicing. 

Definitely not the same quality.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

One cup of salt can treat 2 parking spots.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Baumbach19 said:


> The reason it requires something like a skid steer is because of the tight quarters.
> At least thats what i am told and why they currently use a skid at these.


And you're recalling this info from your service provider that fails you right?

Good luck with your new venture


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

Luther said:


> And you're recalling this info from your service provider that fails you right?
> 
> Good luck with your new venture


Yes thats right. probably not the best source, point taken.

Are there not situations where a plow truck wont work? What about stacking into a pile? Many of those same tight spaces, have limited space to put snow as well. Without being able to pile it, would be spending much more on removal.


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## bliz&hinikerDLR (Dec 30, 2011)

I’m picturing small apartment buildings with single lane drives, tightly parked cars, many corners to pull snow out of and few places to stack when I confirm that “Yes, there are situations where a plow truck doesn’t work well”


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

A skidsteers shorter length relative to a pickup, combined with its ability to turn 180degrees within (nearly) its own footprint, will make it easier to operate in tight quarters. Skidsteers generally weigh more and have higher horsepower than a utility tractor with a comparable footprint/dimensions, which usually translates to better plowing. And yes, there can be areas that are too tight for a pickup, especially crewcab/Longbed rigs. Unless the only alternative is a shovel. Then I usually find a way to make the truck work.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

bliz&hinikerDLR said:


> I'm picturing small apartment buildings with single lane drives, tightly parked cars, many corners to pull snow out of and few places to stack when I confirm that "Yes, there are situations where a plow truck doesn't work well"


You describe much of what i will have to plow.


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## Baumbach19 (Jan 30, 2020)

Kinport said:


> A skidsteers shorter length relative to a pickup, combined with its ability to turn 180degrees within (nearly) its own footprint, will make it easier to operate in tight quarters. Skidsteers generally weigh more and have higher horsepower than a utility tractor with a comparable footprint/dimensions, which usually translates to better plowing. And yes, there can be areas that are too tight for a pickup, especially crewcab/Longbed rigs. Unless the only alternative is a shovel. Then I usually find a way to make the truck work.


Thank you for this info. I have been having a hard time deciding if a tractor or skid would be better. If i can keep cost reasonable i think the skid will serve more purposes.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Things to look for....

2 speed, don't even consider a single.

Suspension seat with heat

Enclosed with heat is a given

A power Bob is nice, if not make sure the pins freely and lube them frequently.

Controls.... Some like feet and hand, others like hand. I'm old school and like my pedels, but for snow it's all about the joystick. Then you have a choice of patterns of control.

Tracks VS tires... endless debate, I like my tracks but prefer tires for snow Even though I will use one from time to time 

As far a a pusher or blade, your case I definitely look at a pusher. Top of the line ones are segmented plows VS cheap non-segmented plows...... More decisions.

Best advice to stay the hell away from a rubber edge, Of course those will be your cheapest ones

Radios, AM/FM is a given, I prefer 8-track, but cassette is also nice. Too much skipping for CD's with the bouncing around.

Back up alarms recommended regardless of waking up neighbors, possibly a backup camera. Those seem to be the new hot things, God knows people cannot back out of a parking stall anymore without staring at the dashboard.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Man you are old, 8 track. Lol


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> One cup of salt can treat 2 parking spots.


"Hungry salt" may not be available in the OP's area.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Only a handful of apartment complexes here salt


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## 512high (Jan 18, 2010)

And OP.....there you go, 64 replies or so with a lot of information to digest, keep us posted


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

m_ice said:


> Only a handful of apartment complexes here salt


What aboot the walks???

Awful lot of liability...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

m_ice said:


> Only a handful of apartment complexes here salt


 You service any of them that don't?


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

FredG said:


> You service any of them that don't?


No


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What aboot the walks???
> 
> Awful lot of liability...


Idk but you're right


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

FredG said:


> Man you are old, 8 track. Lol


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Baumbach19 said:


> Hey guys, thanks in advance for any opinions you can give me on this.
> 
> I own a property management company, relatively small in size, and i am going to be bringing our snow removal needs in house for next year. I have not been pleased with the service this year. I spend half a day just checking properties and getting the dude to do a good job. I figure i might as well just spend a whole day and do them all myself and make some money doing so. I might do a little work for other people to make some extra cash..but not a lot. I am not looking to make this into a full fledge snow company at this point. Serve my existing clients and make some decent money doing it.
> 
> ...


I've plowed with a skidsteer exclusively for the last 10 years or so, and I know I I broke down the costs here years ago in a thread, but have no idea where. Here's a few thoughts:

- You're probably right in assuming the skid will work out far better than a pickup truck on some/most apartment lots. In my experience on my own rentals, there's very limited space to pile snow, and they're very tight. A skid can maneuver snow much better around corners, stack much higher, load snow if you need to relocate off site, and turn within it's own footprint. All things a truck can't do.

- A skid steer offers far better vision to the front (you can literally see all of the blade and what you're about to run into) than a truck. You can generally do a far better job of back dragging and plowing in general due to the vision. I spent 10+ years in trucks/dump trucks/wheel loaders before plowing everything with a skid, and still struggle getting back into a truck on occasion.

- Skids are designed to perform much heavier work than snow removal, and will last for decades if maintained even minimally. When the snow gets deep or heavy, a truck might struggle, a skid won't notice.

- I broke down costs years ago here when it come to tracks vs. tires. I can tell you that tracks cost far more to operate. Here's what comes to mind to operate a skid with tires:

Fuel consumption, at wide open, was always at 2 gallons per hour. Pulling back to 3/4 throttle still got the job done just as fast most times, with a significant fuel saving.

Tires: I literally spent $1 per machine hour on Severe Duty tires. I replaced the original set on my plow skid at 1500 hours and spent $1500 on the next set. I ended up running dedicated snow tires near the end, and think the wear was probably similar per hour.

Repair: Not sure, In 10 years with the skid I plowed with, I doubt I spent more than $1k in repairs, other than the set of tires listed above.

Maintenance: I always did the eservice myself, maybe $200 a year in fluids and filters?

Insurance: I already had the machine listed for construction use, it didn't cost me any more to plow with it.

Implement cost: Depends on what you decide to hang off of it for a plow/pusher/bucket. Cutting edges, angle cylinders/repair couldn't have cost more than a thousand or two in 10 years.

Depreciation: This is probably the biggest cost, I'd figure on probably $8-10 per hour machine depreciation over 10 years. Much higher in the early years, but lower as the machine ages.

ALl that said, I'd say the overage rate of $25 per machine hour is probably pretty close. If you have no use for the machine in the summer months, leasing probably makes good sense.

PS, please realize that machine costs aren't the only costs in snow removal.......


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