# blowing condo driveways



## nor'easter1 (Jan 28, 2003)

Looking into a 40 unit condo complex. Driveways are about 12/15 foot long with asphalt walks going up to door. Was wondering if any one snow blows them either with blower or say a garden tractor with front blower. Seems silly to bring in a skid steer for such a small association and one guy could blow drives and walks all in one swing. open to any other machinery suggestions to. Thanks


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*condominiums*



99 % of it will be related to how much room you have to get rid of the snow.

If the entire area is flat thats a bonus and the only limitation is storage of snow.

If the sidewalks are flat with no steps all the better as you can use the entire width of thr blower to open the path beyond the sidewalks if there is no shrubbery or open the path to the right of the sidewalk width easily.

If the driveways are next to each other you will have some planning to do as far as removal sequence and wind direction when using a blower.

Using askid steer with a blower will be more troublesome with lower speeds as you are totally dependent on the hydraulic system.

You would be better off using a Kubota BX2660 with
dual rear remotes 
loaded tires "and" chains when needed to remove snow banks 
hard cab with the kubota three speed defroster/heater front and rear wipers 
high output alternator for cab work lights 
front end loader 
Pronovost Puma 62 model snow blower mounted on the rear to remove everything and be able to throw the snow much further away.
with hydraulic chute and spout control

The RAD snowblowers built for the kubotas are not built heavy enough for packed ice and snow.

The Puma has a wear scraper edge which will allow you clean the pavement if the snow is powder or fresh wet snow

The BX2660 with the Puma snow blower wil be well worth it if you are cleaning the road for the complex as it will do that nicely too and no snowbanks or blind spots either

leon


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Leon,let boost up that font there!

A company near was using a bob cat with a blower on it and the condo drives were only 12 feet long.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Do people park in driveways that are only 12' long? A tractor with a blower should make quick work of 40 drives.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*snow blower*



Whoopsie

Sorry about that Grandview I did that one last night or this morning and was not paying attention as I was using the CTRL+ function rather than increasing the font size

Has American Rock Salt filled up the 400000 ton stockpile at the mine yet?

My former employer was found to be totally negligent by MSHA and fully responsible for the Silo collapse and death of the contract truck driver in March of this year; should be interesting to see if any fallout occurs from this-they have paved over the area where the silo was and there is nothing evident to prove that mess was there.

Any death per occurance is a $10,000.00 fine.

leonz


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Kid with a snow blower, no problem. Won't take more then 2 hours.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*condos and snow blowers oh boy*





Um , are you really serious in saying
its will take two hours with all the
unknown variables, especially if
the snow pack is 3 feet deep?
The frying pan and fire come to mind.

leon


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Good Lord leon!!

What is going on with your posts??? :laughing:


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*condo*



Hopefully this works anyway

I will leave the print alone as it has been 
a distraction to say the least.

leon


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

leon;1054930 said:


> Um , are you really serious in saying
> its will take two hours with all the
> unknown variables, especially if
> the snow pack is 3 feet deep?
> ...


Let me be more clear. An average snowfall, with a nice two stage 36inch self propelled snowblower would make quick work on 40 condo driveways. I would have no trouble getting them cleared in two hours. That isn't enough to justify any other equipment, so spend the money on the blower.

Yes, you are correct that 3 feet of snow would not be the same as 6 inches... I would hope that would be obvious to someone bidding this type of property.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

The last time we had 3' of snow they had to call the army in.

We are hard pressed to get 6" of snow and when we do we usually plow it once before we get 6" so the ladies can still wear their fancy shoes.

Jon was being kind, he would most likely send 2 kids with 36" shovels.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

haha, we have done it. Bobcat's break down, get the shovels boys!


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*condos attacked by renegade snowblowers*



A couple of things come to mind with this puzzle:

if the driveway is 12 feet wide and 12 feet long-

Does each condo have an attached garage?

Is the garage one if those one and half car beauties?

If the condo has two cars- ouch-filled driveway no possible way to clean it

if the cars block the sidewalk nothing short of blowing a path on the lawn

to open up the sidewalk entry- condo associaton complaints about the grass damage- yuck;

fortunes of war and only owning what is within the four walls of your condo.

other issues are the automobiles- can thay be parked on the road or street

without the condo association getting a pimple or hangnail and breaking any

association rules about parking?

what about the "snow emergency" and the inevitable huge snowfall? will the car owmers be able to remove the cars, park them on the street and keep them off the driveways to clean them?-providing the association does not get its pantyhouse in a knot?

If the snow emergency affects the condos and they are on public street emergency snow removal takes precidence and driveways get buried with out hesitation- and it melts and gets heavy and nasty.

another worry is your garden variety light post where are they located if any?

if it were me;

The rear pronovost 48 or 62 inch puma with the extended chute( with chute cover for the extension with or without the hydraulic controls would allow quick work of the mess and use the rear 3 point hitch with no added equipment like the under frame mount.

The 48 would need three passes and the 62 inch will still need to make three passes;

The idea is to totally eliminate any snow banks to avoid ice and packed snow

The 48 inch unit would give you more useable horsepower per foot of cut versus the 62 inch blower.

The Pronovost Puma has a higher throat opening 28 inches and can remove that thickness of snow in one pass if needed.

Assuming the driveway is empty of vehicles when clearing

You would have much flexibility in cleaning with the rear blower 
due to the higher capacity and the throat opening of the Puma 48
or 62 inch blowers.

The Puma can have a stainless steel wear scraper edge option on the bottom of the
throat opening to clean the driveway while clearing.

assuming this example:

1 foot of snow depth

no cars in the 12 foot width of driveway

144 times 21 pounds of snow per cubic foot gives you

1800 pounds of snow (rounded higher) 
so if their is 2000 pounds as an example wieght over the 144 square feet not counting the sidewalk
HA HA we all know theres a lot more !

using 1 mile per hour for the rear travel speed which is 88 feet per minute :

it would require the total time of one minute roughly to clear the 12 foot width of the driveway with

the 48 inch Puma with the extended chute.

The same time would be required to use the 62 inch Puma but it would have less horse power per foot of cut.

The 48 inch Puma would be a better fit for cleaning the sidewalks also as it will be easier to overlap and cut away

any banks of snow and it would be of benefit for narrower areas near a vehicle.

The Puma 48 inch rear blower would be faster and more economical than a self propelled walk behind blower as

it will take much less time to clear snow and will be able to remove snow banks at the same speed and move many more

tons of snow.

The chute extension for the Puma will alow you to throw snow further and higher at the 540 rpm speed at high throttle and

get rid of it the first time. you will be able to remove the chute extension with out issues and use the standard chute also.

adding clarences snow blower impeller kit will allow you to throw snow even furthe for the little it costs and it sweeps the impeller drum clean 
and it will work for the Puma easily.

leon


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Leon... first of all... I don't know what to say...

Second of all, unless you are giving him this equipment... there is no way in hell that a 40 unit condo would come close to paying enough to support anything that you are talking about...

Do you currently take care of anything close to this type of work?


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## OrganicsL&L (Jan 30, 2009)

I used to snowblow 20 2 car drives that were approx. 25' long and maybe 20' wide(all in 1 complex). I used a grasshopper mower w/a 60" snowblower on it and all 20 took approx. 90 minutes in an average (6-10") storm.

Worked great until we got dumped on with 24" and 6' drifts at the doors!


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Exactly along the same lines that I was talking about. These driveways are way smaller then the ones you are talking about, so 90 mins is fair. I wouldn't be surprised if a snowblower was faster then your grasshopper setup.


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

*Condo's*

What if the 36" snowblower craps the bed? Better get two and two operators just in case, A snow remover without a backup is surely a candidate for early retirement ....like it or not. If your thinking tractor or skid, go for it Most of us have more machinery than work for it, in anticipation of getting more work.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*snow and the condos continued*

I see nothing wrong with charging $400 for a season per condo in the association and with that kind of pricing you could do a lot of $400 for a season mowing with a 48 inch Caroni flail mower with the F rotor and 88 knives with hydraulic sideshift mounted on the rear of the Bx2660 and cover a lot of ground and have a beautiful lawn everywhere. there will be very lettle trimming to do too as the mower can get very close to everything and not make missles out of anything it may hit thats hidden in the grass.

The 48 inch flail mower will mow quickly even when its wet and damage the turf less and create nice ribbon patterns with no scalping.
The flail mower will leave little if any clippings and the minor clipping that are left will compost quickly.

The advantages outwiegh any negatives as the rear blower will also handle the road to with no issues as it will eliminate any banks by disposing of the snow the first time. It might take a little longer but no mail boxes will be damaged or curbs broken and you could spread sand and sweep it later if needed. Adding the chute extension to the blower will allow you to throw the snow further with no issues.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

You really like your equipment discussions don't you Leon? I am going to have to look into this stuff before I have a comeback for you.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Ok, explain your $400 per season pricing? Is that $800 a year? You will get nowhere close to that with condo's, and you can't use a flail mower on nice lawn can you? Won't the tractor be to heavy?


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*condos etc.*



About pricing:

40 condos for the winter months being October 31 to April 1 or later,
plus call out charge when required with excess snow and storms on 
a per hour basis on call out per hour from each owner billed to each
owner individually above and beyond the $400 dollar per winter charge.

October 
November 
December
January
February
March 
April

7 months of winter season versus the standard of 10 months from september to may during the fiscal year.

400 dollars divide by 7 months equals 57.15 per month not including salt and sand.
sweeping and vacuuming can be done as part of the spring summer maintenance and 
rounded off its $2.00 a day per condo for seven months to garantee a clean driveway and possibly the road business to prove how efficient he is meaning:

$80 dollars a day $2400.00 dollars per month 
for 7 months of winter plus call ups at an hourly rate to be billed to the association with no *****ing as they are getting a lot for a little and they have nothing to ***** about as the contract can be for five years and locked.

Summer months:

may 
june 
july 
august 
september 
october

$400.00 a season per condo owner

mowing and trimming only with lanscaping extra

6 months 180 days

mowing once per week

26 weeks of mowing for each condo owner

$400.00 divided by 26 weeks is 15 dollars per weeks per condo owner plus landscaping if desired on an hourly basis billed to the condo owner.

Depending on how the condos and grass are laid out with clear lanes of movement-
and hoping the architect follows function instead of form to design them-

The Caroni flail mower with the hydraulic side shift and the grass knives will make quick work of it because a flail mower will mow wet ground and grass and the the tractor has high floatation turf tires- not the narrow turf tires.

The turf will not be damaged either from scalping as the full width roller prevents that from happening and the flail mower knife slices the grass blade where the rotary mower tears it and strresses the grass blade more than a flail knife.
the rear roller gives a nice ribbon pattern when mowing.

The flail mower is a much quieter mower and does not depend on creating suction to pull the grass blade up to cut it and any high grass can be recut after it is cut the first time and recut with no worries about leaving unsightly clippings.

The flail mower will chop up leaves and leave nothing but bits where a rotary mower just blows them around=equals not raking

So they have no reason or room to complain about pricing as it gets done.

So $28,400 for 12 months of maintenance for 40 condos plus call out charges above and beyond the agreed minimum- I am sure they pay more than this for cable TV, phone or satellite service for forty condos

40 hours of labor for mowing and 40 for trimming is eighty hours per month
480 hours for the summer season.

the winter could possibly double the labor expense with shoveling or snow pup use if needed 
but the work would be faster if you only spend 3 minutes per driveway for example and possibly two minutes shoveling or using a snow pup walking between drives with the snow pup.
30 hours per month 7 months plus call outs

480 plus 210 is 690 hours of labor

So; 40 units times 800 dollars per year is $32,000.00 gross income 
for 700 hours of labor -rounded equals 46 dollars an hour charge

plus callout charges, salt, sand, road plowing if possible with the Kubota and the PUMA

more than enough for a Pronovost Puma 48 inch snow blower with all hydraulics and spuot extensions and a 48 inch Caroni flail mower with a finish rotor and grass knives and 88 knives and hydraulic side shift to speed mowing and leaf mulching.

its not my fault that condo associations are cheap; if they can afford cable and the other junk they can afford good snow removal and quick mowing with much less noise and effort and the flail mower is safer anyway as it will not throw objects.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Leon... good luck. Your numbers are wrong. I was trying to give the original poster helpful advice because I actually service condo's...


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Pristine PM ltd;1055504 said:


> Leon... good luck. Your numbers are wrong. I was trying to give the original poster helpful advice because I actually service condo's...


Cutting condo grass with a flail mower has to be by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard..... Good luck getting a 4720 with a mower like that anywhere... A Z turn or grandstand with a mulch kit will make that thing look stupid


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

no no, Leon will have an essay for you showing you why a flail mower is so great!


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*condos*



Triple L;1055510 said:


> Cutting condo grass with a flail mower has to be by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard..... Good luck getting a 4720 with a mower like that anywhere... A Z turn or grandstand with a mulch kit will make that thing look stupid


Tthey have and use more more flail mowers in western europe than rotary mowers for mowing as they are safer and much quieter in operation.

The machinery noise restrictions are much much higher than on this side of the pond.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*condos*



Pristine PM ltd;1055504 said:


> Leon... good luck. Your numbers are wrong. I was trying to give the original poster helpful advice because I actually service condo's...


I double checked all my math so I know thats not an issue- this all started simply because of an inquiry about snow blowers and the utility of a front mounted snow blower on a scut.

We no nothing about the 40 unit condo complex other than the driveways and the side walks.

My 48 inch flail mower which is 31 years or more old must be making me hallucinate
when I see how well the turf looks every time I mow the 5 plus acres I mow with it leaving no wheel marks and it only uses 2 gallons of gas as well.

I dont miss having a belly mower suck itself into the sod for all its worth due to wet conditions.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

good luck Nor-easter... take the advice that works for your situation.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

leon;1055550 said:


> I dont miss having a belly mower suck itself into the sod for all its worth due to wet conditions.


Do you have a full time mechanic... It must take a whole day to take off those blades and sharpen them....


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*flail mower*

No it does not take that long to change them as ours has
spring tension shackles which let you change the knives 
with no tools.

The flail mower grass knive has two sharpened edges 
and it allows you to flip the knive over if it is dull or damaged;
that way you can get two seasons mowing easily with no issues.

The entire width of the flail mower is cutting at all times.

The total cutting edge length of the knives used on the grass blade 
rotor (ours has 96+) is greater in cutting edge surface length than
any number of rotary mower blades for the same width rotary mower 
of any brand.

The Individual grass knife is followed by another identical knife blade direcly 
behind it and slices the narrow amount of grass next to the blade ahead of it.
at a rotation speed of one hundred miles per hour or greater using what is 
referred to as the "Verticut" method where the knife is slicing and lifting the 
tiny portion of the grass blade over the rotor and back down to the ground safely.

the design makes it a safer mower as anything it may impact is contained within 
the flail mower hood and not made a projectile from any impact.

The flailmower can have forward rotation in some models and brands like the 
boom mower units used for highway mowing as the material contacted is thrown forward and 
under the rotor as the mowing tractor advances forward.

If you want to see a flail mower on a walk behind tractor the Great Dane folks
make them and export them-they dont sell them here.

You can buy a BCS 2 wheel tractor or others with a several flail mower models 
to mow grass and brush with diesel engines as well. they also have a two wheel sulky 
so you can ride behind the tractor as you mow as well.


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

*Condos*

Just a note, I'm a small operator, but about 65% of my $ are assoc. Where I live a flail mower is for the ditch, rotary for finish work. I build my own (I have my reasons) When I develop a cost projection, I figure out how long it will most likely take, decide what I'm worth,( or at least what i think i'm worth) and charge accordingly. In my case I just keep track of my time and charge by the hour. (For plowing that is) not mowing, that I do the previously listed way.


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

*Condo's*

Is Leon a dealer?


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*condos*

No,

I am not an authorised dealer for flail mowers.

I have owned and or used them for 35 years, and 
always recommend them, for several reasons including;
the flail mower makes less noise, doews ot throw objects 
like a bush hog or rotary finish mower, leaves little to no clippings
to worry about even with longer grass, and the turf always 
looks better with the ribbon from the rear roller and 
how much better the turf recovers after mowing.

The individual blade of grass is also much less damaged 
and also heals faster with no mowing stress as thr tiny slice of grass 
taken by the flail knife is less damaging than the use of a rotary blade.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

plowatnight;1055764 said:


> Is Leon a dealer?


nope, he is a user!

haha, just kidding there Leon...


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

*hmmmmmmm*

I guess it's a matter of personal preference


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

*flail mower*

Leon,
I know this totally off the subject now, but how many hrs do you figure you can mow w/ the flail before you have to sharpen and how many knives on say a 60" cut ? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


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## ChicagoPlower (Dec 16, 2005)

How far is the condo complex from your other accounts? Why not swing through there with one of your trucks? I've found the best set-up for condos/town homes is a pickup with a back plow. What an absolute time saver. Blowers can be a bit noisy to people if they're running six hours strait in a 10" storm. Hope you get the contract.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*flail mower knives*



plowatnight;1056059 said:


> Leon,
> I know this totally off the subject now, but how many hrs do you figure you can mow w/ the flail before you have to sharpen and how many knives on say a 60" cut ? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


========================================================================
If you stay on turf with the flail and dont do a lot of brush you will get many years of use from 
a sixty inch cut flail mower with 88 grass knives using one manufacturers lacing pattern.

The rotor on ours has a staggered hangers which are really the best for turf as it overlaps.

Saying that I changed out all the knives on our flail mower for the first time in 18 years having replaced 20-30 knives out of 96 as the bases of those specific knives were worn off and would not cut the full length of the knife.

leon


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

*Condo's*

Thanks for the info Leon, I've been mowing Townhome Assoc. since about '94, nobody around here uses a flail for finish mowing (S E Minnesota) however as a shadetree inventor, and a consumate innovator, the notion absolutely intrigues me for several reasons, I appreciate your knowledge. Nobody beats Kubota, I have an 18 hp front mount 4x4 w/ over 5000 hrs and never been torn down.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*flail mowers*



plowatnight;1056270 said:


> Thanks for the info Leon, I've been mowing Townhome Assoc. since about '94, nobody around here uses a flail for finish mowing (S E Minnesota) however as a shadetree inventor, and a consumate innovator, the notion absolutely intrigues me for several reasons, I appreciate your knowledge. Nobody beats Kubota, I have an 18 hp front mount 4x4 w/ over 5000 hrs and never been torn down.


Does yours have the gear box and propeller shaft? if it does you can put an american made flail attacment on it.

PM me with your e mail and I will forward the information to you if your model is the right one.

time to go nite nite and put the blanket on the wifes rat terrier.

leon


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

*Snow to flail*

Hey leon, Yes, GF1800 4x4. It has the goofy metric 10 spline PTO shaft. I have just finished a 4 blade 68" flexing mower deck with rear discharge, which was a challenge because it took me 8 months to find a PTO on ebay as I wasn't gonna pay $495. to the dealer. It works pretty well, but I still have a few little bugs/mods. to work on. After thinking about what you said, it occured to me that a flail would give you faster mowing speed as well as eliminating the gobs out the dicharge. Just a thought. I'm also in the process of developing a hydro drive snowblower setup for the rear of my plow pickup. (THAT should be interesting) I'm at [email protected]


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## bcomstock15 (Aug 29, 2010)

plowatnight;1056577 said:


> Hey leon, Yes, GF1800 4x4. It has the goofy metric 10 spline PTO shaft. I have just finished a 4 blade 68" flexing mower deck with rear discharge, which was a challenge because it took me 8 months to find a PTO on ebay as I wasn't gonna pay $495. to the dealer. It works pretty well, but I still have a few little bugs/mods. to work on. After thinking about what you said, it occured to me that a flail would give you faster mowing speed as well as eliminating the gobs out the dicharge. Just a thought. I'm also in the process of developing a hydro drive snowblower setup for the rear of my plow pickup. (THAT should be interesting) I'm at [email protected]


Wow! im really interested in the mower deck you designed. We have 3 of these GF1800s (4x4) i'm looking for a snowblower too if anyone has one for sale.. any other mods you've made to the machine? run a cab on it? (we use tektites)


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