# Thinking about going to becoming a sub-contractor this year....



## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

Hey guys-

I've been plowing the last couple seasons, doing driveways for my lawn clients, with a plowing rider on my regular GL vehicle policy. Now, that price has been steadily increasing for the past few years, and this year gas gone sky high (I haven't had any accidents- my agent said it's due to all the lawsuits we see in the snow/ice industry in NJ).... I'm looking at dropping over $4k into insurance alone- JUST FOR PLOWING! 

So, with that figure pretty much cutting out most of my profitable money for the winter, it got me thinking- should I not be just working for someone else as a sub?

I have a few questions....
1) What insurance should a "sub" be required to carry? Will a regular auto policy (non-commercial) do the trick? Wouldn't I be covered under the company's GL policy since I'd be an employee of theirs?

2) What kind of pay should I expect per hour? This is my 5th year plowing with my pickups- extensive experience plowing drives and some private roads. I'm in Northeast, NJ (Bergen County). I'd probably be plowing in my Dmax (see sig).

3) What should I be looking for in a contract with a GC? Things to avoid?

Sorry for the long post- just wanted to get opinions/info on being a sub.

Thanks!

Matt


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## Spucel (Feb 6, 2011)

As a sub I have to have my own commercial vehicle and general liability policy of 1Mil/2Mil. If the rates are high, start shopping around.


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## plowwithdodge (Sep 19, 2011)

*Insurance*

Scott and anyone else who can help,

can someone help with pricing for their General Liability Insurance? I have been subbing and am trying to start an llc. The company that I have been subbing for said I am covered under their general liability, but I don't trust anyone in NJ. Any suggestions or help with companies is greatly appreciated.


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

Spucel;1314855 said:


> As a sub I have to have my own commercial vehicle and general liability policy of 1Mil/2Mil. If the rates are high, start shopping around.


Are you an LLC? Reason I ask- in NJ you need to have a Fed ID # (basically you must be an established business) to get a commercial auto policy. It doesn't make too much sense to me that someone being employed by someone else would have to be an established business..... thoughts?


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

plowwithdodge;1314869 said:


> Scott and anyone else who can help,
> 
> can someone help with pricing for their General Liability Insurance? I have been subbing and am trying to start an llc. The company that I have been subbing for said I am covered under their general liability, but I don't trust anyone in NJ. Any suggestions or help with companies is greatly appreciated.


Did you have a commercial auto policy on your truck when u were a sub? Or just a regular auto policy (passenger plates, etc.)?


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

My personal auto insurance will not cover anything that happens while I am plowing if I am getting paid to plow. I can plow my personal properties or work for free and my insurance will cover any damage I cause but will bot cover slip and falls. I also will be sub'ing this year and I am waiting on my quotes to come in for a commercial auto policy. Once hear back I will post them.

Since I am a sub for this company I am not covered under their insurance.


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## plowwithdodge (Sep 19, 2011)

*@mkwl*

I did have commercial ins during plowing season and regular insurance for rest of the year as I am not a full time contractor.


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## blk90s13 (Sep 1, 2005)

you be fine as long as your regular insurance company does not know about it, I dont see any sense in having to carry your own plowing insurance if you sub for someone else !


I think the pay range in NJ is from $70-$90 per hour for a pickup ?


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## Spucel (Feb 6, 2011)

I just started a corporation but I didn't need the info to start the policy. My general liability is around $650.00 a year and my commercial is maybe $1600.00 a year. I am only on the commercial for plowing months. You have to remember with insurance, it's very particular with the specific person. I cant say that my insurance should be the same as yours if I live in a city of 140,000 and you live in a city of 12. Age, previous tickets & accidents, driving distance, your market you are in, and the number of policies all factor in. I have 5 policies with them so I get a discount for that. Don't feel like you need to stay with 1 insurance guy though. See what's out in your area. 

I would always have my own insurance instead of depending on someone else. Say you are plowing for me and I told you I will carry the insurance in a verbal agreement...times get tough and I have to cancel my insurance but I dont tell you. We are plowing the nursing home and a fossil falls outside and smashes her hip. You plowed it, there's a good chance you will be named in the lawsuit and that verbal agreement is worth nothing in the courts. 

I didn't mean to write a book about insurance but I commonly see guys get mad because a 21 year olds insurance is higher than the 45 year olds. Just wanted to give you some stuff to think about.


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

Really blk90s13???

You will be ok if nobody knows about it.

FOOLISH statement.


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## Spucel (Feb 6, 2011)

This is one area you do not cut corners in! If you need to shop around or throw a little extra cash towards insurance then do it. Trying to save $200.00 now by hiding it is just plain stupid....


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## blk90s13 (Sep 1, 2005)

goel;1314919 said:


> Really blk90s13???
> 
> You will be ok if nobody knows about it.
> 
> FOOLISH statement.


but its true

you will be fine as long as your insurance company does not know you are using the vehicle for commercial work

Does not mean its right


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

plowwithdodge;1314907 said:


> I did have commercial ins during plowing season and regular insurance for rest of the year as I am not a full time contractor.


Ok thanks- who did you have your insurance through? Did you have to run comm plates in the winter?


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

blk90s13;1314913 said:


> you be fine as long as your regular insurance company does not know about it, I dont see any sense in having to carry your own plowing insurance if you sub for someone else !
> 
> I think the pay range in NJ is from $70-$90 per hour for a pickup ?


Sarcasm? Perhaps I worded that wrong- What I meant was "I don't know if I should be required to have my own GL/Comm Auto if I'm a sub (basically an employee of the company).

Yeah I'd be a little worried though if something happened- because then they'd find out in a hurry lol


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

Spucel;1314918 said:


> I just started a corporation but I didn't need the info to start the policy. My general liability is around $650.00 a year and my commercial is maybe $1600.00 a year. I am only on the commercial for plowing months. You have to remember with insurance, it's very particular with the specific person. I cant say that my insurance should be the same as yours if I live in a city of 140,000 and you live in a city of 12. Age, previous tickets & accidents, driving distance, your market you are in, and the number of policies all factor in. I have 5 policies with them so I get a discount for that. Don't feel like you need to stay with 1 insurance guy though. See what's out in your area.
> 
> I would always have my own insurance instead of depending on someone else. Say you are plowing for me and I told you I will carry the insurance in a verbal agreement...times get tough and I have to cancel my insurance but I dont tell you. We are plowing the nursing home and a fossil falls outside and smashes her hip. You plowed it, there's a good chance you will be named in the lawsuit and that verbal agreement is worth nothing in the courts.
> 
> I didn't mean to write a book about insurance but I commonly see guys get mad because a 21 year olds insurance is higher than the 45 year olds. Just wanted to give you some stuff to think about.


Commentary much appreciated sir! :salute:

I would never plow for someone on a "verbal" agreement- I'd have to have everything (especially insurance, liability, etc) spelled out in a contract that I'd have a copy of. I was just wondering if GC's typically "cover" their subs on their own policies, or if the subs themeselves need to carry a COMM/GL policy (to the tune of $4K).

What I'm trying to reduce is my upfront costs- being $4K in the hole with no promise of making that back isn't too appealing to me this year, with student loans, etc to pay off. So my rationale was, if I can plow for someone else with my regular auto policy, I would eliminate the need for that additional $4K or so upfront.... and still make $$$$ plowing as a sub.

Maybe I'm just dreaming..... lol :laughing:


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

Spucel;1314921 said:


> This is one area you do not cut corners in! If you need to shop around or throw a little extra cash towards insurance then do it. Trying to save $200.00 now by hiding it is just plain stupid....


I'm all for covering my arse- my concern is- if everyone around me is going to quote me $4K- I could be $4k in the hole and be workign most of the winter for free.....


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## Spucel (Feb 6, 2011)

I got a quote for 5K and I told him to play in traffic. Have you shopped around? Don't take 1 price and settle!! I'm looking for a salter, called every western dealer within 50 miles, found one 20 mins from work for $90 cheaper than the other guy


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## Spucel (Feb 6, 2011)

Find a guy in your area that can recommend you to someone. Call $20 different companies and I bet you can find one cheaper than 4K....if I'm wrong I owe you a case of beer


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## plowwithdodge (Sep 19, 2011)

*Insurance*



mkwl;1314927 said:


> Ok thanks- who did you have your insurance through? Did you have to run comm plates in the winter?


I run my commercial plates all year, but only had/have comm ins through GEICO affiliate last year during snow season expired April 15th. Went back to personal auto as truck is not used for commercial use except plowing. Did not have chance to shop around and money was dangled in front of me. This year I want to be prepared and cover my a$$...

Have you had any luck with quotes/rates for general liability for commercial plowing? I have no employees, but still feel like I am not covered. Thinking of acquiring a LLC for further protection as well!!!


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## blk90s13 (Sep 1, 2005)

Yes it was sarcasm ! 


you got quoted $4k for plowing ? or that's just a number you came up with ? that is expensive


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

plowwithdodge;1314939 said:


> I run my commercial plates all year, but only had/have comm ins through GEICO affiliate last year during snow season expired April 15th. Went back to personal auto as truck is not used for commercial use except plowing. Did not have chance to shop around and money was dangled in front of me. This year I want to be prepared and cover my a$$...
> 
> Have you had any luck with quotes/rates for general liability for commercial plowing? I have no employees, but still feel like I am not covered. Thinking of acquiring a LLC for further protection as well!!!


Ok- do you have a contact # for the Geico affiliate? Did you have to give a Fed ID # for the winter insurance?

No luck thus far- no one will even give me a quote without a fed ID #......


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## plowwithdodge (Sep 19, 2011)

mkwl;1314942 said:


> Ok- do you have a contact # for the Geico affiliate? Did you have to give a Fed ID # for the winter insurance?
> 
> No luck thus far- no one will even give me a quote without a fed ID #......


Just call the regular geico number. It is a separate company but they will direct you. FYI like I said I am not a business this is just a second income, daycare costs. Not sure if that matters. You will also have to pay for the full season not just monthly, for 4 months, this is after I realized I was not covered, total was just under $500.

ANYONE HELP OUT WITH CHEAP GENERAL LIABILITY INSURANCE?


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

plowwithdodge;1314952 said:


> Just call the regular geico number. It is a separate company but they will direct you. FYI like I said I am not a business this is just a second income, daycare costs. Not sure if that matters. You will also have to pay for the full season not just monthly, for 4 months, this is after I realized I was not covered, total was just under $500.
> 
> ANYONE HELP OUT WITH CHEAP GENERAL LIABILITY INSURANCE?


Ok thanks for the info....

Waiting to hear back on suggestions.....


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

blk90s13;1314940 said:


> Yes it was sarcasm !
> 
> you got quoted $4k for plowing ? or that's just a number you came up with ? that is expensive


Quoted $4K for 1mil GL, Comm on both my trucks (see sig), included plowing for the winter (with primary being landscaping).


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## dm5.9 (Dec 23, 2009)

I just contacted my ins rep about renewing my policys both gen lib and com. auto Ill let you know what I hear back in a few days. Im in northern nj I have a pretty good insurance rep if your interested. last year they got me a policy at 1800 for commerical auto insurance. I was subbing so I was covered under their gl but this year im going out on my own and they told me to expect between 900-1500 for gl


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## plowwithdodge (Sep 19, 2011)

dm5.9;1315056 said:


> I just contacted my ins rep about renewing my policys both gen lib and com. auto Ill let you know what I hear back in a few days. Im in northern nj I have a pretty good insurance rep if your interested. last year they got me a policy at 1800 for commerical auto insurance. I was subbing so I was covered under their gl but this year im going out on my own and they told me to expect between 900-1500 for gl


I would love to find out who your agent is. I know when I checked last year I was getting a quote for 2000+ just for GL. I am in Sussex County too so email me a contact number and I will be in touch. Thanks.


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

plowwithdodge;1315164 said:


> I would love to find out who your agent is. I know when I checked last year I was getting a quote for 2000+ just for GL. I am in Sussex County too so email me a contact number and I will be in touch. Thanks.


I too would like to have this contact, as Geico quoted me $7K for a policy... at those kind of prices I'd be better to sell off my plow gear and sit at home 

From Geico:

Thank you for contacting GEICO® Commercial Auto. We received your online application and worked up a preliminary rate quote for your commercial auto policy.

Your estimated annual policy premium is $7,082.00, although you may be eligible for further discounts and savings.

We can start your policy with a down payment by debit or credit card.

To start enjoying the benefits of a GEICO® Commercial policy, call us at 1-800-841-1622. Our licensed sales agents are available 8AM-9PM EST Monday-Friday.

You can also give us a call to discuss our convenient payment plans, options, and further discounts.


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## dm5.9 (Dec 23, 2009)

The company I use is
Edsall Insurance Services, LLC
40 Route 94
Vernon Colonial Plaza
McAfee, NJ 07428
973-827-8888
http://www.edsallinsurance.com

My contact guy there is Derik Edsall Its a small family owned and run business thats been passed from father to son 3 times. They are very friendly there and very helpful will answer any questions you have.

Tell them Dave Minassian told you to call.

Ps where are you in sussex plowwithdodge? Im in sussex co too and I also plow with a dodge


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## dm5.9 (Dec 23, 2009)

I tried that route too, I was told by them I wont be covered plowing any commercial lots either. My current policy is through travlers



mkwl;1315168 said:


> I too would like to have this contact, as Geico quoted me $7K for a policy... at those kind of prices I'd be better to sell off my plow gear and sit at home
> 
> From Geico:
> 
> ...


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## born2farm (Dec 24, 2007)

look into american family. I was directed towards them by sima after I could not get anyone to cover me because of my age (18). I now have a policy with them. GL $350 and comm on two trucks $2300. Both are year policies.


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## dm5.9 (Dec 23, 2009)

According to their website they do not offer insurance in nj. I see your from Ohio that would explain how shocked I was to see your prices for insurance lol. NJ it one of the most expensive states to get insurance, there's no way your gonna get insurance even close to that in nj



born2farm;1315563 said:


> look into american family. I was directed towards them by sima after I could not get anyone to cover me because of my age (18). I now have a policy with them. GL $350 and comm on two trucks $2300. Both are year policies.


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## born2farm (Dec 24, 2007)

dm5.9;1315577 said:


> According to their website they do not offer insurance in nj. I see your from Ohio that would explain how shocked I was to see your prices for insurance lol. NJ it one of the most expensive states to get insurance, there's no way your gonna get insurance even close to that in nj


Ya, I didnt even look to see if they were in NJ. Sorry. I know I had to do some shopping around. The first company I looked at was cheeper, but they did not want to write me a policy because I was so young. I looked into progressive and they wanted $6000 just for auto.


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## plowwithdodge (Sep 19, 2011)

dm5.9;1315172 said:


> I tried that route too, I was told by them I wont be covered plowing any commercial lots either. My current policy is through travlers


Followed through with GEICO $1,146 for 6 month policy, ($570 3 month policy this year and $458 last year 3 month--Like I said earlier I didn't know I need Commercial Insurance either that's why only 3 months)

Dave I called your guy too in Vernon I will let you know how that works out. Don't worry I dropped your name too. Are you contracted out or work for your self when you plow?


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## dm5.9 (Dec 23, 2009)

That geico quote for 6mo is almost as much as i paid for the whole year last year! I was also told by someone at geico they wont cover me plowing, but they might have had miss information but id double check that. I subcontracted for a company in vernon last year, they basically have 2 diff rates one if you have workers comp, gl, and comerical auto, they pay you a higher rater, or they have a lower rate of pay where they cover you under their gl and workers comp. Either way if you back into someone its on you, and your personal auto is never going to cover you if they find out you were in a comerical lot with your plow down. This year Ive lined up 2 accounts so far already so im going out on my own. I wasn't too happy subcontracting, the pay isnt that great its your gas and wear and tare and they usually let you plow the heavy stuff and then send you home and let the guys who have been there stay out and make more hrs doing clean up didnt like that at all.



plowwithdodge;1315691 said:


> Followed through with GEICO $1,146 for 6 month policy, ($570 3 month policy this year and $458 last year 3 month--Like I said earlier I didn't know I need Commercial Insurance either that's why only 3 months)
> 
> Dave I called your guy too in Vernon I will let you know how that works out. Don't worry I dropped your name too. Are you contracted out or work for your self when you plow?


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## plowwithdodge (Sep 19, 2011)

*Insurance*

Hey Dave just wanted to say thanks for your contact with the Edsall, Derik has saved me a bunch of money. I am meeting him Monday to sign papers. Thanks Again, Ryan


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## dm5.9 (Dec 23, 2009)

plowwithdodge;1326569 said:


> Hey Dave just wanted to say thanks for your contact with the Edsall, Derik has saved me a bunch of money. I am meeting him Monday to sign papers. Thanks Again, Ryan


No problem, glad I could help out. Still waiting on him to get back to me since my auto doesn't expire till end of nov and I want to keep them both close together. He quoted me about 900 for gl though which wasn't too bad.


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## The Natural Landscape (Sep 27, 2011)

*insurance*

We pay for the equipment as leases buy the hour and then pay the owner operator as an employee (usually about minimum wage). This gets around insurance issues for our hired equipment. Around NJ/NY we offer $75.00/hr (67.75 for truck/7.25 labor).


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## plowwithdodge (Sep 19, 2011)

kagenewengland;1328195 said:


> We pay for the equipment as leases buy the hour and then pay the owner operator as an employee (usually about minimum wage). This gets around insurance issues for our hired equipment. Around NJ/NY we offer $75.00/hr (67.75 for truck/7.25 labor).


Justin,
I am signed on with another contractor, but do you offer work for second shift or call in as needed. I am willing to travel when my route is over in NJ. Let me know if that is something of interest. I can call you if it is something of interest.
Ryan


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## The Natural Landscape (Sep 27, 2011)

*back up*



plowwithdodge;1328414 said:


> Justin,
> I am signed on with another contractor, but do you offer work for second shift or call in as needed. I am willing to travel when my route is over in NJ. Let me know if that is something of interest. I can call you if it is something of interest.
> Ryan


I can't guarantee, but it never hurts because most likely we can work out something-lets stay in touch.


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## plowwithdodge (Sep 19, 2011)

kagenewengland;1328625 said:


> I can't guarantee, but it never hurts because most likely we can work out something-lets stay in touch.


Thanks Justin I will give you a call this week, most likely later in the week. What is the best number to reach you at?


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## The Natural Landscape (Sep 27, 2011)

774-244-0106


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## platinumpimps (Oct 18, 2008)

Are you a DBA? you can use you social number but still need 1-2 million coverage.


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