# Residential Snow Removal



## MIPLOWER (Sep 15, 2010)

I was wondering, how many of us only do Residential Snow Removal, 
Truck, Snow blower shovel


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

I started out with 12 drives. Now I had over 40 accounts last year. This year I signed on a few more so far. That's where I started.


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## MIPLOWER (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks for the reply


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I do only resies about 100.


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## mansf123 (Nov 10, 2009)

i take on a about 15 residentials but most of my work is doing commercial work.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

whats wrong with the residentail, is it worth it thread?


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## mercer_me (Sep 13, 2008)

That's all I do is residential driveways.


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## DareDog (Oct 22, 2007)

Residential only 10 drives plow only


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## mrsnowman (Sep 18, 2010)

I am down to 1 residential. They aren't worth it. If you want to make a living plowing, you need to have customers with money. Take a two hundred dollar drive for the season. The one night in early December you peal back the sod and bam your profits for the season are gone to repair it. One employee with a truck, gas, dirt, and seed. Easily 50 dollars. Gas, wear and tear insurance, comp, etc etc. throughout the season cost more then $150.00 for that drive. Now your drivers hit their garage door or mailbox, tear out their new pavors etc. 
Oh ya, they are also the ones who call you on Christmas and New Years because they need to be scraped down nice for their visitors. Big fat old NO THANKS! Boom


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

mrsnowman;1076054 said:


> I am down to 1 residential. They aren't worth it. If you want to make a living plowing, you need to have customers with money. Take a two hundred dollar drive for the season. *The one night in early December you peal back the sod* and bam your profits for the season are gone to repair it. One employee with a truck, gas, dirt, and seed. Easily 50 dollars. Gas, wear and tear insurance, comp, etc etc. throughout the season cost more then $150.00 for that drive. *Now your drivers hit their garage door or mailbox*, tear out their new pavors etc.
> Oh ya, they are also the ones who call you on Christmas and New Years because they need to be scraped down nice for their visitors. Big fat old NO THANKS! Boom


So why you plowing the lawn? could it be that your truck is the same size as the driveway and you have no clue where the plow is?

I dont care what you plow if you run into stuff you cant make money.


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## mansf123 (Nov 10, 2009)

The problem with residentials is people just cant grasp the fact that the driveway cant always be down to pavement at exactly 7am. If its still snowing in the morning there could be a few inches back on the drive even if you came at 6am. If your taking on over 50 driveways its tough to satisfy everyone. Im not saying theres not headaches in commercial work ( trust me there are plenty of issues) but its alot easier to satisfy those custermers because you are focused on one property instead of 50


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

I stick with commerical only.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

mansf123;1076093 said:


> The problem with residentials is people just cant grasp the fact that the driveway cant always be down to pavement at exactly 7am. If its still snowing in the morning there could be a few inches back on the drive even if you came at 6am. If your taking on over 50 driveways its tough to satisfy everyone. Im not saying theres not headaches in commercial work ( trust me there are plenty of issues) but its alot easier to satisfy those custermers because you are focused on one property instead of 50


Why do they think that, clearly you are not explaining your scope of work. We rarely get those kinds of calls, we explain that we clear your driveway through out a storm so they can get in and out of their drives. Only once the snow has stopped do we make a final pass, and clear the whole driveway to the pavement. We just bought out another competitor, adding 750 more drives to our list of customers. The phones will still be handled, by one person. Have a clear snow response plan, and scope of work that should limit the calls. You are right that you cannot satisfy everyone, and those that just don't get it and keep calling. Well we will gladly refund them their money.


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

I do alot of residential. I don't mind it. I make more doing commercial work but I have a good mix of customers and equipment. I run two utility tractors and a sub with a utility tractor. Mine have front mount blowers and we do all walks, driveways etc. His has a rear mount blower and a loader. If it is wet sloppy snow and can't blow, we'll pull in a skid or plow truck.

People realize you can't have them open by 6-7 am. I have a list of priority customers - people like doctors, lawyers, people who travel to work no matter the weather and bunch of handicap assisble homes where a bus picks these people up by 7am. From there we go down the list.

NEIGE - wow an extra 750 clients - what is your total list comprise of.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

jvm81;1076374 said:


> I do alot of residential. I don't mind it. I make more doing commercial work but I have a good mix of customers and equipment. I run two utility tractors and a sub with a utility tractor. Mine have front mount blowers and we do all walks, driveways etc. His has a rear mount blower and a loader. If it is wet sloppy snow and can't blow, we'll pull in a skid or plow truck.
> 
> People realize you can't have them open by 6-7 am. I have a list of priority customers - people like doctors, lawyers, people who travel to work no matter the weather and bunch of handicap assisble homes where a bus picks these people up by 7am. From there we go down the list.
> 
> NEIGE - wow an extra 750 clients - what is your total list comprise of.


Hoping to sign all 3400 of them this year.


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

NEIGE: Smoken! That is alot of snow, equipment, and hours. I see in your sig. equipment - is that all yours, leased? What do you run for equipment? Pushers? etc.

I am looking at the kage, sectional, and degelman speed blade. Any recommendations?


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## mansf123 (Nov 10, 2009)

3400 accounts......Thats impressive. I always thought 100 was alot.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

jvm81;1076589 said:


> NEIGE: Smoken! That is alot of snow, equipment, and hours. I see in your sig. equipment - is that all yours, leased? What do you run for equipment? Pushers? etc.
> 
> I am looking at the kage, sectional, and degelman speed blade. Any recommendations?


What are you looking at putting it on?



mansf123;1076643 said:


> 3400 accounts......Thats impressive. I always thought 100 was alot.


100 is alot, then once you have 100 you go for 200, and so on, and so on, and so on. Years ago we only had 100.


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

Neige;1076710 said:


> What are you looking at putting it on?
> 
> 100 is alot, then once you have 100 you go for 200, and so on, and so on, and so on. Years ago we only had 100.


Wow, I've only got a little over 40 right now... Someday....


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## KMBertog (Sep 9, 2010)

when it snows here i am responsible for only one drive. it's a very VERY large drive for an extremely wealthy client who lives in one of the wealthiest parts of the area. between the drive, garage area, and then the shoveling/snow blowing in appropriate areas then applying chemical... i am on the property for nearly 3 hours. then i stop by a couple multi family accounts to check our progress and head back to jump in a salt truck.


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## vmj (Nov 17, 2008)

theplowmeister;1075134 said:


> I do only resies about 100.


I gotta ask.... i knew a guy that use to do 60 by him self... Are u by your self? How can u by ur self get all drives done after the snow stops with out running into the next doy or pissing people off.... Just asking because i do 6 com and 15 res and feel like im running cracy espesially on big storms.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I can do 60 by my self. 
I have a helper, we use jeeps. and there all in a 3 mile circle. I dont shovel and we have backdrag edge on the Fisher and DP on my Boss plow 

When I gave up my full sized PU I just about doubled the number of driveways I can do.


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## Pinky Demon (Jan 6, 2010)

Never did resis before. What's about the going rate for them?


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

Depends...
where
how big 
city or Hollywood


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## Pinky Demon (Jan 6, 2010)

theplowmeister;1085246 said:


> Depends...
> where
> how big
> city or Hollywood


Average size, suburbs, Ohio.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

No idea I'm suburbs of Boston


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## vmj (Nov 17, 2008)

theplowmeister;1085113 said:


> I can do 60 by my self.
> I have a helper, we use jeeps. and there all in a 3 mile circle. I dont shovel and we have backdrag edge on the Fisher and DP on my Boss plow
> 
> When I gave up my full sized PU I just about doubled the number of driveways I can do.


Thanks for the answer,been away for the week end.... anyways 60 seems alot to me to do after a storm.... not that i wouldnt want to try.......lol


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

60 is a too many driveways if you plow with a FS pickup. (I know I used to)


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## vmj (Nov 17, 2008)

ya, i belave that. i'm plowing with a mason dump with a sander..... and the diveways that i do do suck after awhile with that.......


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## Pinky Demon (Jan 6, 2010)

theplowmeister;1086007 said:


> 60 is a too many driveways if you plow with a FS pickup. (I know I used to)


How does your Jeep hold that 7' 6" V blade? Seems like it would be a good setup to run for the size of the vehicle. How wide is a Wrangler? BTW, did you have to custom fab that undercarriage up? I'm not even seeing Jeeps listed on the Boss plow selector.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

Just fine 

~ 5 1/2 feet
Yes I made a custom mount 
and added air shocks front and rear with 450 Lb rear bumper and upgraded the brakes


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## lumps (Sep 3, 2005)

theplowmeister;1085113 said:


> I can do 60 by my self. I have a helper, we use jeeps


I think we need to clear up what "by myself" means. :laughing:


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

lumps;1086366 said:


> I think we need to clear up what "by myself" means. :laughing:


I can plow 60 driveways by my self when we have a snow storm, I did it for years.
I had rout with 65 customers and only me to plow.

Then I got a helper and more customers.

I now have a helper and 100 driveways.

So...
I can plow 60 driveways by my self
I now have a helper and 100 driveways.

I would draw you a picture but thats to much work.


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

I can do 78 TH units over 3 Assoc. and about 20 Resi, including most of the shoveling and about 6 running blocks of Public sidewalk w/ a truck/plow, 34hp loader tractor and a pup blower and a plastic shovel in anywhere from 12 - 20 hrs depending on amount and wind conditions. Oh yeah, by myself. meaning nobody helping. Why? you ask, because I'm an IDIOT.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

Thats why I got a helper. I can do 60 but I'm balls to the wall. after 24 years of plowing I decided taking it a Little easier is nice


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

theplowmeister;1086808 said:


> Thats why I got a helper. I can do 60 but I'm balls to the wall. after 24 years of plowing I decided taking it a Little easier is nice


Yup, I plan to outfit my children with brand new shiny shovels this year. (Lord knows I had to work the family business when I was a kid! ! )


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## Jerreber (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm taking on a few residentials for the first time. Don't think I would trust an employee to do it so I'll never do alot of them. To much **** to happen. Only big drives too nothing small. Like someone said, you hit a door, tear out some pavers, etc... have to fix it. And I tell people i only use the plow to back blade so it won't get down to bare pavement unless they pay for de-icer. I wouldn't be scared to charge a premium either. I think if you can't make a $100 per hr doing combined drives then it's not worth it to me but that's just me!


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## stackmaster (Nov 6, 2008)

We keep about 30 Resi's and another 30 or so commercial. Around here though, the resi's are smaller and usually done by shovel or snow thrower. Years ago we decided to make the resi route smaller and advertise to get more customers in smaller area. Drive time is a killer.


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## BMAN1 (Nov 11, 2009)

Last winter I did 55 Driveways and two parking lots. I was fine if it we got less than 6" anymore than that I had to have help. I have an uncle with a blade who just does his own driveway but If I am late he will catch the bigger lot for me. This year I sold about twenty driveways to a friend because I just wasn't happy with the service I was able to give.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

MIPLOWER;1075038 said:


> I was wondering, how many of us only do Residential Snow Removal,
> Truck, Snow blower shovel


MIPLOWER: I have over 60 Residential accounts and if you want to be the king of residential accounts you will follow my advice. 3 years ago we had 5 Residential accounts.

1) NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER plow a residential driveway, UNLESS it is a rounded driveway and you can keep plowing forward. Most guys plow there residential accounts on these forums and don't even offer clearing there sideways and porches. AKA: They are lazy.

2) Homeowners want FULL SERVICE. They don't want to pick up a shovel. They want there driveway cleared, sidewalks, walkways, porches, steps everything. Many of them also expect you to salt as needed, so be sure you put in a salting option in the contract and have the choose the level of salting service they would like. Ours has 3 options (do not salt, we don't need it or will salt on our own, salt as needed, salt as needed in these specific areas ______________)

Each year we add dozens of residential accounts. Most of them have had a snow removal service in previous years. Most of them complain about how the other service destroyed this, or ripped up there lawn or something. 100% of the time our bids are HIGHER then what the 'plow guys' offer to do it for. But the homeowners KNOW we will not destroy anything and clear it much better then guys with a plow can. Every year we hear customers say, "It was so hard to find a company around here that will actually shovel in front of the garage door, do our sidewalks and walkways, most guys just plow as best they can and then drive away"

If you want to make money doing snow removal at homes, you must offer FULL SERVICE. Otherwise your just another idiot in a truck. Never plow a driveway.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

mrsnowman;1076054 said:


> I am down to 1 residential. They aren't worth it. If you want to make a living plowing, you need to have customers with money. Take a two hundred dollar drive for the season. The one night in early December you peal back the sod and bam your profits for the season are gone to repair it. One employee with a truck, gas, dirt, and seed. Easily 50 dollars. Gas, wear and tear insurance, comp, etc etc. throughout the season cost more then $150.00 for that drive. Now your drivers hit their garage door or mailbox, tear out their new pavors etc.
> Oh ya, they are also the ones who call you on Christmas and New Years because they need to be scraped down nice for their visitors. Big fat old NO THANKS! Boom


If you have this kind of attitude your better not even to offer snow removal at homes. Almost every point he makes is wrong or does not make sense.

1) Homes are not about 'plowing', they are about snow removal

2) $200 per season? Never bid Residential snow removal by the season. Bid them PER VISIT, also be very clear about 2 visit storms. Every storm over 8" will be a 2 visit storm as long as we can get everywhere fast enough.

3) Customers with money??? I don't know where this guy lives, but there are TONS of wealthy elderly people everywhere.

4) Peal back sod... this is why you DON'T PLOW DRIVEWAYS - stop being lazy.

5) Hit garage door or mailbox.... this is why you DON'T PLOW DRIVEWAYS.

6) Scraped down for Christmas? If you would have snow blown it, it would have been down to the pavement the first time.

Clearly this is the perfect example of customer service not to have. For homes you need to be a very personable nice friendly person that truly cares about the customers best interest. If you come into snow removal with that look, you will be able to bill 2-3x what these plow guys are billing and you will have very happy customers and will make plenty of cash.

Thanks for allowing me to use you as a perfect example of what NOT to do mrsnowman.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1090968 said:


> If you have this kind of attitude your better not even to offer snow removal at homes. Almost every point he makes is wrong or does not make sense.
> 
> 1) Homes are not about 'plowing', they are about snow removal
> 
> ...


I want to expand and clarify a bit for mrsnowman a bit

i agree with most of lawnlandscape's points, but you can do residential seasonally, just know your numbers, a good mix of seasonal and per times protects you on both fronts. My question for mrsnowman is this, if you hit someones grass, or garage door, isn't it the same as taking out a curb on a parking lot? or destroying the collar on a manhole? there are risks no mater which way you go, commercial or residential, "stupid is as stupid does" as Forrest, Forrest Gump would say


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

buckwheat_la;1090973 said:


> i agree with most your points, but you can do residential seasonally, just know your numbers, a good mix of seasonal and per times protects you on both fronts. My question is this, if you hit someones grass, or garage door, isn't it the same as taking out a curb on a parking lot? or destroying the collar on a manhole? there are risks no mater which way you go, commercial or residential, "stupid is as stupid does" as Forrest, Forrest Gump would say


We do both seasonal contracts and per visit contracts for the exact reason you list. Protection on both fronts. However, we have never offered seasonal pricing on residential accounts. We only offer seasonal contracts on larger properties and all of them include the lawn mowing and lawn fertilization/weed control in that same seasonal rate. They are 1 year contracts (at least).

And its not about knowing your numbers. Lawn mowing and lawn fertilization you know exactly how many times you will be at the property in a year. For snow removal you don't know. Yes you know an average, but that can really kill you. If you do to many seasonal contacts and you base them on 14 visits (for example) and you get 22 visits 2 years in a row you are in a really bad situation. If you are going to give a seasonal price you should at least cap it at X amount of visits and specify what each visit after X amount of visits will cost.

Also, no... hitting grass or garage doors is not same as the other examples you listed for 2 reasons.

1) This is damage to someones actual home, which is far more valued then anything else in a persons life
2) This is damage that could have been easily preventable by not trying to plow something that should not have been plowed.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Keep in mind though, I have employees. If your a one man show your risk and costs are less. (this is refering to the seasonal contract - you still should NOT be plowing driveways)


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1090978 said:


> We do both seasonal contracts and per visit contracts for the exact reason you list. Protection on both fronts. However, we have never offered seasonal pricing on residential accounts. We only offer seasonal contracts on larger properties and all of them include the lawn mowing and lawn fertilization/weed control in that same seasonal rate. They are 1 year contracts (at least).
> 
> And its not about knowing your numbers. Lawn mowing and lawn fertilization you know exactly how many times you will be at the property in a year. For snow removal you don't know. Yes you know an average, but that can really kill you. If you do to many seasonal contacts and you base them on 14 visits (for example) and you get 22 visits 2 years in a row you are in a really bad situation. If you are going to give a seasonal price you should at least cap it at X amount of visits and specify what each visit after X amount of visits will cost.
> 
> ...


Well U and I differ in how we run things, all my residential is seasonal, monthly contract actually, but all my commercial is per time or hourly, that way if we are loosing money on the residential side due to lots of snow, it doesn't bother me because i am making a killing with my skidsteers, tractors, and loader anyways, but if we get a really slow month, those seasonals keep all the bills paid. We also have retaineer amounts on our large commercials and condos, so that if we end up with no snow at all, we have something coming in from the commercial side of things, but that retaineer get applied to the next month. And i respectfully disagree about the "knowing your numbers when it comes to snow" an example

Residential (seasonal contract)
we average 3-5 snowfalls a month
about 10 snowfalls has me breaking even
over 10 snow falls i am loosing money on residential

Commercial(hourly/pertime)
we average 2-3 events per month
we need 1 event per month for the Commercial to pay for its over head costs, insurance, shop rental, equipment payments. After that 1st event the only costs incured by equipment is: gas, employees, up keep on equipment

So a worst case scenario for me is

10 light snowfalls in a month where we have no equipment hours in, now the chances of that are very, VERY little.

My point with the other stuff was strictly from a cost stand point, accidents are going to happen, and they are going to cost money, you can have a accident on a commercial property that costs you a lot more then on a residence, i saw a fire hydrant hit a couple years ago by a loader, it shattered the housing all the way down, cost.......$8000 and change. I would rather replace one garage door or sod repair and a couple hundred dollars, then a curb or something else at many thousands of dollars, and i think residentials are usually more tollerant of these types of mistakes then commercial, but that is JMO


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1090980 said:


> Keep in mind though, I have employees. If your a one man show your risk and costs are less. (this is refering to the seasonal contract - you still should NOT be plowing driveways)


Agreed on the plowing driveways, although some people do it just fine, i prefer snowblowers and shovels, and our small tractors, but I am far from a one man show, i think we are taking the same approach from different angles


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

buckwheat_la;1090989 said:


> Well U and I differ in how we run things, all my residential is seasonal, monthly contract actually, but all my commercial is per time or hourly, that way if we are loosing money on the residential side due to lots of snow, it doesn't bother me because i am making a killing with my skidsteers, tractors, and loader anyways, but if we get a really slow month, those seasonals keep all the bills paid. We also have retaineer amounts on our large commercials and condos, so that if we end up with no snow at all, we have something coming in from the commercial side of things, but that retaineer get applied to the next month. And i respectfully disagree about the "knowing your numbers when it comes to snow" an example
> 
> Residential (seasonal contract)
> we average 3-5 snowfalls a month
> ...


I'm flying out the door so will respond to this later... but what is your trigger for your homes? This is another reason why I choose to do per visit. Everyones trigger is different. Some are a dusting, 1", 2", some are even 3" (which I hate).

Also we keep most of our homes from year to year, and I have my employees write down when they got there and when they left, so I am able to bill EXACTLY what is costs to hit my target $.

However in your case the customer has something they dont have with me. They know exactly what they are paying. This is great for the older people on the fixed incomes. If you know what your doing, I don't see a problem with seasonal contracts, but it can be risky.


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## Pinky Demon (Jan 6, 2010)

Do any of you guys throw a clause in for higher prices if you have to remove deep amounts of snow with resis, like many do on commercial properties? 

What is usually the inch trigger for high snow rates?


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## msu1510 (Jan 25, 2010)

we only do 3 residentials (widows) we have all 3/4 ton trks with salters and some with swing back blades. It seems to big and bulky, so to speak. some of my commercial accounts are much easier than a tight drive. I think you need to have the proper equip set up for the accounts you target. i know of some guys that only do resi's and they turn profit. I think its partly how you set up your equip, and partly what clients you are more comfortable with. you can make money either way or, if you hit stuff, you can loose money either way


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

anyone that thinks you can't make money doing residential needs to talk to Neige


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

lawnlandscape;1090956 said:


> MIPLOWER: I have over 60 Residential accounts and if you want to be the king of residential accounts you will follow my advice. 3 years ago we had 5 Residential accounts.
> 
> 60 accounts, I am all ears Mr KING
> 
> ...


Mr KING those are harsh words, clearly with your experiance and quanity of accounts you must be a snow only company.



lawnlandscape;1090968 said:


> If you have this kind of attitude your better not even to offer snow removal at homes. Almost every point he makes is wrong or does not make sense.
> 
> 1) Homes are not about 'plowing', they are about snow removal
> 
> ...


Well said


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

buckwheat_la;1091509 said:


> anyone that thinks you can't make money doing residential needs to talk to Neige


Thanks Buckwheat tymusic


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Neige,

A couple of things.

1) Snow removal is not our only business, in 2009 it was actually 15% of our revenue for the year

2) You seem to mock my quanity of accounts when I have only said how many homes I have.

3) More then half of those 60 accounts are in fact average income homes. My comment about wealthy people was simply in response to that other persons post.

4) I personally would never bid home properties seasonally. That was my advise to him, if you do it fine. For us there it to much risk in that for to small of a property.

5) I will never plow a driveway and maintain that no one should ever plow a driveway UNLESS it is a circular driveway that you can go in and out while moving forward the whole time.

6) "Homeowners want an inexpensive solution, so they can drive off to work without having to work up a sweat, and come home to a cleared driveway. Most find the added price for clearning the sidewalks and in front of the garage door to much so they take care of it themselves. As for salting, I only get around 3 calls a season out of 3400 accounts for salting."
This comment shows the major difference between our companys. You target the people who want it done cheap, I target the people who want it done right. Open up the phone book... how many contractors do you have in your area? If everyone of them is competing on price, no one is going to be making any money.

7) You don't have 3,400 accounts, you have 2,700 accounts. Why inflate it?
http://goplow.com/business/rethink-residential-with-paul-vanderzon.html
Are you actually Paul, or just related to him? I can see your reason for not offering sidewalks, but for us its extremely profitable.

Thats all i got.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1091706 said:


> Neige,
> 
> A couple of things.
> 
> ...


i am going to respond to a couple of things about this, Neige is indeed Paul, and (correct me if i am wrong Paul) you bought out one of your competitors recently so he likely has 3400 accounts, AND if Paul is doing many thousands of clients, has all the equipment paid for, and is writting stuff for groups like SIMA, i would say he must be doing something right.

Im going to grab a  and watch this unfold


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

btw, your located real close to that 'John H. Chapman Space Center' right? cool place...


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

lawnlandscape;1091706 said:


> Neige,
> 
> A couple of things.
> 
> ...





buckwheat_la;1091713 said:


> i am going to respond to a couple of things about this, Neige is indeed Paul, and (correct me if i am wrong Paul) you bought out one of your competitors recently so he likely has 3400 accounts, AND if Paul is doing many thousands of clients, has all the equipment paid for, and is writting stuff for groups like SIMA, i would say he must be doing something right.
> 
> Im going to grab a  and watch this unfold


Thanks again Buckwheat, I think this will unfold very quickly, my time is to important.



 lawnlandscape;1091715 said:


> btw, your located real close to that 'John H. Chapman Space Center' right? cool place...


I can see it from my house, less than a mile away. Its a very cool place.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I'll jump in here

Lawnlandscape

I think most people take exception you adamant stand

"2) $200 per season? Never bid Residential snow removal by the season. Bid them PER VISIT, also be very clear about 2 visit storms. Every storm over 8" will be a 2 visit storm as long as we can get everywhere fast enough.

There is more than just your way to charge.

I have some on season contract and like it and they are Happy with it.

Again Just because YOU cant figure out how to do it, doesn't mean I cant.

"1) NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER plow a residential driveway, UNLESS it is a rounded driveway and you can keep plowing forward. Most guys plow there residential accounts on these forums and don't even offer clearing there sideways and porches. AKA: They are lazy."
Just because YOU cant figure out how to do something does not mean I cant figure it out.

Not All customers are willing to pay to shovel the side walk. My truck (jeep actually) sits idle if I am shoveling so I have to charge for the truck time, that makes shoveling expensive.

"AKA: They are lazy" in my case after back surgery I no longer shovel.

"4) Peal back sod... this is why you DON'T PLOW DRIVEWAYS - stop being lazy.

5) Hit garage door or mailbox.... this is why you DON'T PLOW DRIVEWAYS.
"

Maybe the problem is your using the wrong equipment. If your using a FS pickup you probably cant see the blade so you run into things with it. Or you need better drivers.

I have 100 houses/storm to plow and we dont run into garage doors. I did 20 years ago when I plowed with a F150 I hit 1 door and put a small hole in it. The home owner let me patch the hole.

I have pealed up some sod, not often. You get out right away and replaced it and it will grow back, in the spring it wont show.

I even plow in front of the mailbox. In 20+ years the only problem I had was when the plow flag (the flexible marker on the top of the plow) knocked a mailbox off (horizontal post was rotted)

I make plowing resis work and others do too. so forgive me if I think you are the odd one out and cant figure how to make it work for I and others have.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

*Gives crown to Neige, and walks away* prsport

I just have no ambition of respond anymore. :waving:


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

theplowmeister;1091798 said:


> I'll jump in here
> 
> Lawnlandscape
> 
> ...


ugh... here we go again. I will throw out some more numbered points in response to you. I seem to like the numbered points. 
1) Once again (since you failed to read my response above) my advice to not bid homes seasonally was my advise to him. If you want to do it, great. Since you seem so smart, why don't you tell me how many snow falls we will have this next season. I don't want an average, I want an exact amount. Also, its not about 'not being able to figure it out', again, if you have read I have said I do seasonal contracts on much larger jobs like condo associations.

2) My residential customers rates are based on a target hourly rate that is the same weather I'm snow blowing, shoveling, or salting (obviously the cost of salt gets added on). Also, we never shovel sidewalks, we snowblow them.

3) Sorry to hear about your back surgery, but if you can't shovel, maybe your in the wrong business or need to hire someone who can. Harsh, yes.. but honest.

4) You seem to be educating me on how to plow a driveway better... when I have never plowed a driveway in the past, and will never plow a driveway in the future. Let me put it this way.... I don't plow driveways for the same reason I don't sky dive. There are certain things that were just not meant to happen. A mans body falling from thousands of feet is one of them and a large plow in a small driveway is another one of them. Every single winter I hear dozens of story's locally about damage caused to homes and lawns of homes due to plowing in driveways. Once winter rolls around you will also start to see numerous posts with pictures on this forum of damage.

5) I know most people on these boards plow driveways, and know I'm the 'odd one out' in this area. I also know that I have not had a SINGLE issue like anything you have listed since I've been in business and never will. It does not sound like you have employees, and that is completely different if your doing it yourself. A smart business owner takes educated risks, not stupid ones. To me, a plow in a home driveway is a stupid risk.

Also know that nothing I say is meant as an insult. Its just simply fact. I' am a blunt person and will say things how I see them, and not make them look rosey. :bluebounc


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

lawnlandscape;1091800 said:


> *Gives crown to Neige, and walks away* prsport
> 
> I just have no ambition of respond anymore. :waving:


Well I will take a pass on the crown, just not my thing, and will also drop it. :waving:


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## bsuds (Sep 11, 2008)

Neige.

What ways of advertising have you found most affective. How did you get the word out about your service in order to aquire so many accounts. 

Right now I plow commercial, but was thinking about diversifying in to residential. Do you have any good tips?


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

bsuds;1091851 said:


> Neige.
> 
> What ways of advertising have you found most affective. How did you get the word out about your service in order to aquire so many accounts.
> 
> Right now I plow commercial, but was thinking about diversifying in to residential. Do you have any good tips?


I sure do, just not much time right now to go into it. You can check out this site where I talk about residential snow. If you have any more questions please send them to me at [email protected] I will gladly help any way I can.
http://goplow.com/discussion-groups/residential-talk.html


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## Lawn Enforcer (Mar 20, 2006)

Very good info here, last year was my 2nd year doing residential, 1st year with a F250/7.5ft plow. I found using the snowblower took the same amount of time as the plow to actually clear the driveway properly, but the time savings was in the fact that I didn't have to load the blower up after every driveway. Most people around me use 753 or S185 Bobcats with just buckets, and they seem to clear most drives in well under half the time as I did with my long box F250, it's all about picking the right equipment for the driveways in your area. 
I also realized as stated before, every customer must have a copy of your policy, so there are no questions about it, if anyone calls and complains about something, I can refer them to the bullet point on the policy sheet so they can read it for themselves, or they just notice something, look through the sheet, and get the answer to the question without having to call me.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

Lawn Enforcer;1091978 said:


> Very good info here, last year was my 2nd year doing residential, 1st year with a F250/7.5ft plow. I found using the snowblower took the same amount of time as the plow to actually clear the driveway properly, but the time savings was in the fact that I didn't have to load the blower up after every driveway. Most people around me use 753 or S185 Bobcats with just buckets, and they seem to clear most drives in well under half the time as I did with my long box F250, it's all about picking the right equipment for the driveways in your area.
> I also realized as stated before, every customer must have a copy of your policy, so there are no questions about it, if anyone calls and complains about something, I can refer them to the bullet point on the policy sheet so they can read it for themselves, or they just notice something, look through the sheet, and get the answer to the question without having to call me.


That is why I use Jeeps. I can do 2X the driveways as a Pickup in the same time.


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## mrsnowman (Sep 18, 2010)

theplowmeister;1076068 said:


> So why you plowing the lawn? could it be that your truck is the same size as the driveway and you have no clue where the plow is?
> 
> I dont care what you plow if you run into stuff you cant make money.


I think you missed my point all together. If you are a one man show with a jeep tooling around doing driveways that is great for you. Personally, as a professional business, we calculated all of the numbers and WE have found it much more profitable for us to stick to commercial. I'm glad you feel strongly about your driveways, just I feel strongly about staying away from them. It is obvious that a Wrangler could not handle what our loaders and commercial equipment do so I understand your confusion. My point was not to say that my trucks are too big for the driveways or I don't have a clue how to handle them, it was simply to say that it is much more profitable for us to stay away from them. There are many people in the snow industry that make a good living doing driveways, but for us, it is much more profitable and results in less headaches to stay far far away.


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## mrsnowman (Sep 18, 2010)

Theplowmeister,
I'm reading over your quote to my original post and I'm trying to decide if you just like to pick fights or you really believe everything you wrote. I will attempt to answer your personal attacks one at a time.



theplowmeister;1076068 said:


> So why you plowing the lawn? could it be that your truck is the same size as the driveway and you have no clue where the plow is? We have multiple trucks and many pieces of equipment. Accidents will and do happen. As we fix everything we damage, we have found that the time spent fixing lawns at residential accounts help to decrease the profits enough to stay away from them.
> 
> I dont care what you plow if you run into stuff you cant make money.


 What do you mean by stuff? Is this from experience or just a nice little generalization?



lawnlandscape;1090968 said:


> If you have this kind of attitude your better not even to offer snow removal at homes. Almost every point he makes is wrong or does not make sense. Thanks for the lesson on attitude! You sound like a heck of a guy with a really positive attitude!
> 
> 1) Homes are not about 'plowing', they are about snow removal
> OK, sorry your have been offended by that statement. Plowing is a pretty general term. I use the term snow removal to refer to hauling snow away. Semantics my friend. WOW
> ...


  You are very welcome theplowmeister! Thanks for the laugh, I think that drink sounds good now!


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## Pinky Demon (Jan 6, 2010)

theplowmeister;1091992 said:


> That is why I use Jeeps. I can do 2X the driveways as a Pickup in the same time.


I have to agree. I <3 my 250, but I can see a well equipped Wrangler getting in so much easier with a coil sprung front end and what not. Any pictures of the little beastie, Plowmeister?


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## BillA (Nov 15, 2011)

Wow, stumbled upon this thread while searching for some info on driveway markers and ended up with much more! NEIGE you are my hero  I gotta say you are where you are in this industry for obvious reasons!! Your level of knowledge is remarkable, and even when you don't have to, or someone doesn't even deserve it you pass it on with such remarkable professionalism and charisma. Cheers to you sir, I hope someday to have even a 1/10th of the impact on this industry as you have and continue to have!!


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

Started with a few residentials, now have more with all my original resigning. Getting more commercials. Res are great as they pay monthly and most pay upfront. 

Not sure if I would want 2000 clients. Sure the money would be great but the personal touch is lost. How can ONE personal (owner) be on every property on every snowfall to make sure its done properly? How do employees not quit, start their own business and steal clients?


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## BillA (Nov 15, 2011)

Weenuk;1358275 said:


> Started with a few residentials, now have more with all my original resigning. Getting more commercials. Res are great as they pay monthly and most pay upfront.
> 
> Not sure if I would want 2000 clients. Sure the money would be great but the personal touch is lost. How can ONE personal (owner) be on every property on every snowfall to make sure its done properly? How do employees not quit, start their own business and steal clients?


We do stricly resi accounts, I have done my share of commercial plowing but love the residential side of things. Plus our summer work supplies us with some great contacts for snow removal customers. I am hoping to continue to grow and become more efficient every year.

And I wouldn't mind 2000 clients at all payup ( they have like 3500 now I think )...It all about proper preparation and planning and sticking to a system. As for how they stay on a personal level with customers, that would be a question for Neige I suppose. I am sure they do a great job of it and from what I have seen and heard they have quite the system and it obviously works. They are more than just one owner, its a family affair and that makes ALL the difference...I can tell you that from personal experience of coming up in a family owned business...a tight knit family can take you SO far in life AND business!

Employees will come and go, that is just business. No-Compete contracts and good lawyers will keep them at bay. JMO thought, I am sure someone with more years in the game can give you more input into that.

Good luck this season!!


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## peterng (Apr 13, 2006)

I've retired my residential cause I like to neiges 100 clients in one acre guideline. 

Last year (my first year) I had 27 drives and a 13k hourly 7 building medium size commercial account. This year I picked up another commercial account (twice the size of my first), dropped all my resi and I'll ride on that til I get the right gear to go back into resi.

We moved our residence today, so that added to a lot of time this fal. That all contributed to some downsizing. 

All in all plows do not belong in town residential snow clearing as far as I can see. I want a big tractor.

My Toyota is a treat to run resi. With the back drag blade in can make some time. The Ford take a little more effort.
Pete


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Weenuk;1358275 said:


> Started with a few residentials, now have more with all my original resigning. Getting more commercials. Res are great as they pay monthly and most pay upfront.
> 
> Not sure if I would want 2000 clients. Sure the money would be great but the personal touch is lost. How can ONE personal (owner) be on every property on every snowfall to make sure its done properly? How do employees not quit, start their own business and steal clients?


It's called management, you need to let go or you never will grow. Also if you want your company to survive after your gone you can't micro manage everything.also.If they quite all they need to do is spend 50k and start doing their own driveways.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

peterng;1358378 said:


> I've retired my residential cause I like to neiges 100 clients in one acre guideline.
> 
> Last year (my first year) I had 27 drives and a 13k hourly 7 building medium size commercial account. This year I picked up another commercial account (twice the size of my first), dropped all my resi and I'll ride on that til I get the right gear to go back into resi.
> 
> ...


Checked out your website and looks good. Great to see another Canadian running a Yota


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

grandview;1358401 said:


> It's called management, you need to let go or you never will grow. Also if you want your company to survive after your gone you can't micro manage everything.also.If they quite all they need to do is spend 50k and start doing their own driveways.


50k not required to start clearing driveways. We cleared today after a small dumping of snow today. Saw a group of guys clearing with shovels only, another group was pulling a toro out of a minivan. Saw not one but two fools driving around with same type of "Sno Dogg" clear see thru plow. Both had cracks and one had a hole in it. None of these groups had 50k invested....


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Paul only uses tractors with inverted blowers,that's why they can pond out 3000 drives.


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

Lawnandlandscape,

What kind of blower is that in your avatar? Looks like it might be a Walker? 

How many snow events do you have per winter? What sizes are you drives? 

------------------

I frankly have to admit I would rather NOT return to doing residential snow removal the following winter if I can get by without the income from it. I’m taking this year off so I will hopefully NOT have to have back surgery. 

For snow blowing and shoveling front steps flat rate residential on smaller drives and walks in roughly $285 - $300 per season flat rate and that is typically one event per day. 2 events per day $385 - $400. Light winters can be as few as 4-5 events on 2” triggers less than 20” total snow fall. Heavy winters can approach 60” to 100” but that is typically not normal can be as many as 20+ events per winter. 

Personally I ‘d rather risk putting extra labor SOLO into a heavy winter than be standing around waiting for snow to fall running solo and only go out 4 times the entire winter. In this area $35 per event is tough to get, $25 is more common and even $15 per drive is advertised from licensed contractors. 

What I’m getting at is this normal….? Better yet is this worth it? 

I'm comparing notes here..Input appreciated. 
:waving:


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## peterng (Apr 13, 2006)

grandview;1358401 said:


> It's called management, you need to let go or you never will grow. Also if you want your company to survive after your gone you can't micro manage everything.also.If they quite all they need to do is spend 50k and start doing their own driveways.


Holy sufferin Grandview I try not to talk inappropriate round here but 8:30 sunday morning and I've got to take in those sweater puppies you're sportin there. Healthy.
Pete


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

Exact Services;1358520 said:


> Lawnandlandscape,
> 
> What kind of blower is that in your avatar? Looks like it might be a Walker?
> 
> ...


Damn am I ever lucky to be up here in Canada. I NEVER do residential unless its a monthly contract, minimal 4 months (Dec 1-Apr 1). Most of my clients pay Nov 1- Apr1. My rates start at $120/month for driveway, front steps and walkway. Rear walkway, decks, etc are extra, either on a per call or included in monthly price an an increased rate. Roof clearing and other extras are on a per call at an hourly flat rate. I only accept payment in post dated cheques or payment in full which gives the client a discount and primary service. My rates are slightly higher then most in my area, 10-20% higher. Clients are willing to pay for earlier clearing, better clearing, and personal service. This shows in fact that I have 100% client return from last winter.

Is it worth it? In my eyes yes because most if not all these clients shall be newly signed lawncare business for my newly expanded lawncare care business (just dealing with a non-solicitation agreement from old employer). I would be bored if not working during the winter. Hell, if I am EVER working for an employer again (each client is my boss). No way shall anyone make money off the sweat of my balls. Plus I get to purchase expense toys and upgrades for truck that can be mostly written off.....


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

ussmileyflag


BillA;1358239 said:


> Wow, stumbled upon this thread while searching for some info on driveway markers and ended up with much more! NEIGE you are my hero  I gotta say you are where you are in this industry for obvious reasons!! Your level of knowledge is remarkable, and even when you don't have to, or someone doesn't even deserve it you pass it on with such remarkable professionalism and charisma. Cheers to you sir, I hope someday to have even a 1/10th of the impact on this industry as you have and continue to have!!


Thank you, those are very kind words.



Weenuk;1358275 said:


> Started with a few residentials, now have more with all my original resigning. Getting more commercials. Res are great as they pay monthly and most pay upfront.
> 
> Not sure if I would want 2000 clients. Sure the money would be great but the personal touch is lost. How can ONE personal (owner) be on every property on every snowfall to make sure its done properly? How do employees not quit, start their own business and steal clients?


As of right now we stand at 2989 clients, and you are right there is no way I can get to know each and everyone of them. As for the personal touch, I get to meet lots of my clients at the local Tims, we are involved in many community projects, each contract I send out has my signature on them, and every complaint that comes in I personally go see the client and work things out. 
I have the best secretary in the world, she handles all the paperwork and calls on her own.
check out why I nominated her as an All Star of the year. http://goplow.com/business/all-stars-office.html 
As for employees quiting, in all my years of doing snow, only 3 have not returned and started on their own. Not one of them in my market, and I helped each one out. There is one that I am in contact with on a weekly basis.
Then I have these great guys like Real who has been with us 36 years, Yves 32, both Bob & Mini I hired at 16 and its been 28 years, Jimmy 18, Mike & Vince & Frank 16 years, Fred, Michel, Steph, Roger, Robert, Joe, Phil 5 years, and the rest of the team who are just as important to me. Being a boss means lots of things, sometimes you have to be like a father, shrink, banker, friend, but always still the boss.
Treat them well, pay them well, and you will get many great years of loyalty from them.
This past year I did not rehire 4 guys, that had worked for me the last two years. They were not team players, and did not care about anything but the pay check. It has been the best move on my part, I got 4 new dedicated, passionate snow guys and one gal. I truly have the best team ever this year.



peterng;1358627 said:


> Holy sufferin Grandview I try not to talk inappropriate round here but 8:30 sunday morning and I've got to take in those sweater puppies you're sportin there. Healthy.
> Pete


LOL you almost made me spew coffee with that one, wait till you meet GV in person.
ussmileyflagtymusic


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Weenuk;1358714 said:


> Damn am I ever lucky to be up here in Canada. I NEVER do residential unless its a monthly contract, minimal 4 months (Dec 1-Apr 1). Most of my clients pay Nov 1- Apr1. My rates start at $120/month for driveway, front steps and walkway. Rear walkway, decks, etc are extra, either on a per call or included in monthly price an an increased rate. Roof clearing and other extras are on a per call at an hourly flat rate. I only accept payment in post dated cheques or payment in full which gives the client a discount and primary service. My rates are slightly higher then most in my area, 10-20% higher. Clients are willing to pay for earlier clearing, better clearing, and personal service. This shows in fact that I have 100% client return from last winter.
> 
> Is it worth it? In my eyes yes because most if not all these clients shall be newly signed lawncare business for my newly expanded lawncare care business (just dealing with a non-solicitation agreement from old employer). I would be bored if not working during the winter. Hell, if I am EVER working for an employer again (each client is my boss). No way shall anyone make money off the sweat of my balls. Plus I get to purchase expense toys and upgrades for truck that can be mostly written off.....


Interesting you have a good thing going, but if ever you want to get bigger there is no way you can be everywhere yourself. When you say 100% retention how many clients are we talking about? Lastly be careful what you say about working for others, hopefully you can find others who are willing to have you make money off their sweaty balls.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

lawnlandscape;1090968 said:


> If you have this kind of attitude your better not even to offer snow removal at homes. Almost every point he makes is wrong or does not make sense.
> 
> 1) Homes are not about 'plowing', they are about snow removal
> 
> ...


Wow, your a pot calling a kettle black.

1) Homes are not about removal. Why would you remove snow from a residential? Why would a client pay for this unless client has no yard to pile the snow. Residential is ALL about clearing and not removal.

2) Price per visit is great if its a heavy snowfall season and client is willing to pay. Not sure of a budget using this method. I ONLY accept payment in full or monthly. Make far more money if its a light to average snowfall. Easier to budget and know your cash flow.

3) You PREY on the elderly?? I give Senior discounts and have helped clear drives of many more Seniors...

4) I plow driveways and have never hit a garage door or tore up sod. Learn how to drive, hire BETTER employees that can drive and stop rushing that can cause mistakes. Only proper business insurance covers accidents like this.

6) Snow blowing works well if you have the extra time to waste and all residential properties are near so the loading/unloading of the snow thrower is less. I much prefer to plow and then touch up

Keep up the good work, I dont steal clients from people like you. Clients come begging for my better proper service....


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

Neige;1358731 said:


> ussmileyflag
> 
> Thank you, those are very kind words.
> 
> ...


I am green with envy! You truly know how to run your operation and seem successful. Congrats to you and your wonderful team. Your truly a great business to model a business after.

Thanks for the insight on your business...


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

Neige;1358739 said:


> Interesting you have a good thing going, but if ever you want to get bigger there is no way you can be everywhere yourself. When you say 100% retention how many clients are we talking about? Lastly be careful what you say about working for others, hopefully you can find others who are willing to have you make money off their sweaty balls.


Your correct about not being everywhere once a company grows larger. Question is how large is to large? Depends on whom your asking I suppose. Depends how much profit the owner wants, with this comes more stress, headache, etc. Do I want to eventually live in the RICH areas I service now?? Make less of a commute...


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Neige;1358731 said:


> ussmileyflag
> 
> Thank you, those are very kind words.
> 
> ...


Your making me blush,I'm buying the free beer sponsored by Pro tech at SIMA next year!


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

Each to his own. We don't do any residential - if you check our album or website (www.landcareinc.ca) equipment pictures, you'll see why. All our customers are seasonal contracts - way too much paperwork to keep track of on "per-event" or "per-push" pricing and seasonal is the way our market operates. You guys are getting way too personal and picky. Relax - winter's only starting.

Have a good one.


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## BillA (Nov 15, 2011)

Weenuk;1358764 said:


> I am green with envy! You truly know how to run your operation and seem successful. Congrats to you and your wonderful team. Your truly a great business to model a business after.
> 
> Thanks for the insight on your business...


x2 Thumbs Up


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## SiLlY (Nov 28, 2011)

This was a good read! Good example of perspective and differing dynamics in every party's world. Thanks!


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## badgerfan (Jun 7, 2009)

*plow accounts*

Yeah, this is my landscape company's third year in business. We are going into our second year of snow removal. Our accounts are 95% high end residential and a few smaller commercial accounts. We presently have contracts for about 155 accounts. The average dollar amount is 38 and with four trucks averaging 5 per hour we should get them done in about 8 hours or less. We all know that things don't always run as smoothly as you would think so like others I will be prepared for the worst(stuck, breakdowns, ect.)


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

badgerfan;1365537 said:


> Yeah, this is my landscape company's third year in business. We are going into our second year of snow removal. Our accounts are 95% high end residential and a few smaller commercial accounts. We presently have contracts for about 155 accounts. The average dollar amount is 38 and with four trucks averaging 5 per hour we should get them done in about 8 hours or less. We all know that things don't always run as smoothly as you would think so like others I will be prepared for the worst(stuck, breakdowns, ect.)


Average dollar amount is 38??? is that $38/hr, per clearing or per month???


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## badgerfan (Jun 7, 2009)

Weenuk;1365558 said:


> Average dollar amount is 38??? is that $38/hr, per clearing or per month???


Thats $38.00 per visit. The average visit is about 6-7 minutes. I realize this is not a huge amount but we our stacking them dense in our metro area and I feel that we can get to 500 in the next 36 months. I am using the same business concept as our fert/weed control program. low individual dollar amounts but high volume and dense!!


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

badgerfan;1365573 said:


> Thats $38.00 per visit. The average visit is about 6-7 minutes. I realize this is not a huge amount but we our stacking them dense in our metro area and I feel that we can get to 500 in the next 36 months. I am using the same business concept as our fert/weed control program. low individual dollar amounts but high volume and dense!!


Is the per visit payment the method most commonly used where you are located? Not a method I use and your company leaves itself open to losing clients to companies offering monthly rates. How does your company make money if visits are fewer then three or two?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Weenuk;1365585 said:


> Is the per visit payment the method most commonly used where you are located? Not a method I use and your company leaves itself open to losing clients to companies offering monthly rates. How does your company make money if visits are fewer then three or two?


What word am I trying to think of? I know,seasonal contract!Thumbs Up


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## Pioneer277 (Dec 1, 2011)

Why do you lose customers to people with monthly contracts? I don't get that at all. As a business you always cover yourself so you make more on the light years then heavy snowfall years, thats the hook of the monthly deal right? So when you get 4-5 lean years where they are overpaying, 1 or 2 years by alot, and one heavy year where you break even or go slightly behind, don't they always shop you against others to get the better deal? My customers would not pay if it isn't snowing, consider yourself lucky.


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## badgerfan (Jun 7, 2009)

Weenuk;1365585 said:


> Is the per visit payment the method most commonly used where you are located? Not a method I use and your company leaves itself open to losing clients to companies offering monthly rates. How does your company make money if visits are fewer then three or two?


I bellieve that most companies around here are charging per visit. Realistically there is not too much downside because your overhead and payroll drop dramatically in the winter months except for the office/shop lease, debt service, ect. So I only pay labor if were plowing. I suppose in a lean winter it may be tough but proper planning means putting enough cushion in your cash reserves to be safe.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

badgerfan;1365740 said:


> I bellieve that most companies around here are charging per visit. Realistically there is not too much downside because your overhead and payroll drop dramatically in the winter months except for the office/shop lease, debt service, ect. So I only pay labor if were plowing. I suppose in a lean winter it may be tough but proper planning means putting enough cushion in your cash reserves to be safe.


Difficult to keep employees when you charge clients per call. All my residentials are on a five, limitted few on four month contracts. This sure makes it easier for a budget. Quick question for all you ownerswho charge per visit. If no snow falls in November. How much money do you deposit? I deposit all my contracts monthly fees, which means I could be earning well over $3000/hr..


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Weenuk;1365585 said:


> Is the per visit payment the method most commonly used where you are located? Not a method I use and your company leaves itself open to losing clients to companies offering monthly rates. How does your company make money if visits are fewer then three or two?


ALL of our residential customers are charged on a per visit basis. With seasonal contracts, you have one light year and the people feel like they were just ripped off, so they look to switch next year.

People like the idea of paying for work when the work is needed (at least in my area). One thing we do for our customers is give them how many times we serviced our other customers on a 1 or 2" trigger for the past 3 years with every proposal. That gives them a very good estimate of what they can expect to pay for the entire season.

How do company's like mine back money this way? Well.. In my area there will never be a winter where there is 2 or 3 visits. Our 2" triggers average 13 visits per season. Also, our highest expense is labor... which we only have when it snows over the winter season, which is what we are billing for.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Weenuk;1365982 said:


> Difficult to keep employees when you charge clients per call. All my residentials are on a five, limitted few on four month contracts. This sure makes it easier for a budget. Quick question for all you ownerswho charge per visit. If no snow falls in November. How much money do you deposit? I deposit all my contracts monthly fees, which means I could be earning well over $3000/hr..


This post makes very little sense to me... How does how you bill make any difference on retaining employees throughout the winter season?

Also.. your example of making so much money during a light month is just plan silly, because then during a heavy month your are making penny's compared to what us per visit guys are charging.

We average 13 visits a year.. Does it really make any difference for my budget if I bill per visits or take 13x my per visit rate and charge them seasonally instead? I guess it would only make a difference if my company is living week to week and can barely pay its bills.

$3,000 a month for all your accounts? Maybe this is why we can not relate... With the 4 seasonal contracts we do have we do over that a month with 'no snow'. Give me my average of 4 storms a month and take your $3,000 and times it by about 12... that will get your relatively close. Put a 1 before your 3, and you will be close to our monthly snow removal revenue.

& I consider my company to be extremely small.

Only on the Internet would people like you be so disrespectful.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

badgerfan;1365740 said:


> I bellieve that most companies around here are charging per visit. Realistically there is not too much downside because your overhead and payroll drop dramatically in the winter months except for the office/shop lease, debt service, ect. So I only pay labor if were plowing. I suppose in a lean winter it may be tough but proper planning means putting enough cushion in your cash reserves to be safe.


You see I am the opposite, I need 38 employees, and all the equipment that they use to get the work done. These are real expenses that I need to cover for the season. How is it fair that I have all this expense, and no income to support it unless it snows. A fair seasonal price, almost always comes out cheaper than a per push price in my market. So even in those light snow years, its still pretty inexpensive for the client to take a seasonal contract.



Weenuk;1365982 said:


> Difficult to keep employees when you charge clients per call. All my residentials are on a five, limitted few on four month contracts. This sure makes it easier for a budget. Quick question for all you ownerswho charge per visit. If no snow falls in November. How much money do you deposit? I deposit all my contracts monthly fees, which means I could be earning well over $3000/hr..


I don't understand how you get to that $3000/hr if you did no work? Am I to understand that your monthly prices add up to $3000 a month, and therefore since you did not clear snow you made $3000?



lawnlandscape;1366403 said:


> ALL of our residential customers are charged on a per visit basis. With seasonal contracts, you have one light year and the people feel like they were just ripped off, so they look to switch next year.
> 
> I have a hard time understanding how people feel ripped off, if it snows. Lets say you only service them 9 times in a light year, they still got serviced. At least this way they can budget for the year, no surprises.
> 
> ...


My highest expense is my equipment, then labor. I need equipment for all these guys to run. I am not saying your wrong, we all have our own markets, and they generally dictate how and what we can charge. I just like keeping an open mind, sometimes we can set a new standard in our markets.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

lawnlandscape;1366412 said:


> This post makes very little sense to me... How does how you bill make any difference on retaining employees throughout the winter season?
> 
> Also.. your example of making so much money during a light month is just plan silly, because then during a heavy month your are making penny's compared to what us per visit guys are charging.
> 
> ...


How am I being disrespectful for attempting to figure out how companies make money in snow removal on per visit residential contracts. I fully disagree with your business views on this. $3000 was an example and not what I actually make. My company has has commercials that DO pay on a per visit clear and a per visit removal fee. In a light snowfall month I shall EASILY make more money with I can budget because I know how much I am bring in? Do you know how much on residential clearing you are bring in on any month???? I sure do, know every month unless there is extra that can be billed to clients. Like roof clearing, etc. If it is a heavier snowfall month, you MIGHT make more. By the end of the snow season, I believe the monthly or seasonal contract makes more then a per visit method for residential.....


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

Neige;1366446 said:


> You see I am the opposite, I need 38 employees, and all the equipment that they use to get the work done. These are real expenses that I need to cover for the season. How is it fair that I have all this expense, and no income to support it unless it snows. A fair seasonal price, almost always comes out cheaper than a per push price in my market. So even in those light snow years, its still pretty inexpensive for the client to take a seasonal contract.
> 
> I don't understand how you get to that $3000/hr if you did no work? Am I to understand that your monthly prices add up to $3000 a month, and therefore since you did not clear snow you made $3000?
> 
> My highest expense is my equipment, then labor. I need equipment for all these guys to run. I am not saying your wrong, we all have our own markets, and they generally dictate how and what we can charge. I just like keeping an open mind, sometimes we can set a new standard in our markets.


I believe the seasonal contract is a Canadien way more so then an american. Residentials were billed out seasonally in Toronto also when I worked there. You brought up numerous good points....


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Weenuk;1366478 said:


> I believe the seasonal contract is a Canadien way more so then an american. Residentials were billed out seasonally in Toronto also when I worked there. You brought up numerous good points....


We've charged seasonally for over 50 years in West Michigan.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Herm Witte;1366516 said:


> We've charged seasonally for over 50 years in West Michigan.


Thanks Herm always love when you chime in. Thumbs Up


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## mnlefty (Sep 17, 2009)

Seasonal vs. per push is very much driven by the norm of any given service area. I am only on year 2 of doing snow on my own with a measily 53 residential drives to claim. All but about 3 of my customers had another snow removal service before signing up with me. All were presented only a seasonal contract, and of the 53 only 1 even asked about paying per time.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

mnlefty;1366650 said:


> Seasonal vs. per push is very much driven by the norm of any given service area. I am only on year 2 of doing snow on my own with a measily 53 residential drives to claim. All but about 3 of my customers had another snow removal service before signing up with me. All were presented only a seasonal contract, and of the 53 only 1 even asked about paying per time.


The per push seems like it might not be an option if not presented to clients by other snow companies. I WOULD never do a res on a per push.

How many of your res paid for entire season in full? Gave you post dated cheques? That is if you dont mind me asking. Private message me if you like....


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

All my resis are per push, my lots are seasonal. 2 seasonal lots, 1 per push commercial and 30 driveways. I'm a one man show, reinvesting every penny. If it doesn't snow in November, I'm making money doing leaf cleanups. The seasonal accounts make me enough to pay the bills and guarentee cash flow through out the season. And I shovel sidewalks because its good service and helps my back from stiffening up.


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## mnlefty (Sep 17, 2009)

Weenuk;1366665 said:


> The per push seems like it might not be an option if not presented to clients by other snow companies. I WOULD never do a res on a per push.
> 
> *How many of your res paid for entire season in full?* Gave you post dated cheques? That is if you dont mind me asking. Private message me if you like....


When I put out my contracts I offer payment half by Nov 15, 2nd half Jan 15, or offer 5% discount for paid in full by Oct. 20th... I usually let the date slide though and anybody that asks about the 5% for payment in full gets the discount as long as service hasn't started yet.

Somewhere right around half, maybe just shy pay entire amount up front. One of my competitors who I have picked up a lot of business from does not even start service until entire contract is paid in full.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

mnlefty;1366700 said:


> When I put out my contracts I offer payment half by Nov 15, 2nd half Jan 15, or offer 5% discount for paid in full by Oct. 20th... I usually let the date slide though and anybody that asks about the 5% for payment in full gets the discount as long as service hasn't started yet.
> 
> Somewhere right around half, maybe just shy pay entire amount up front. One of my competitors who I have picked up a lot of business from does not even start service until entire contract is paid in full.


Your business sounds similar to mine. Our snow season runs Nov1-Apr1. I offer 10% payment in full by Oct 25 (also let date slide), 5% for 5 post dated cheques. Clients that pay in full gets 2cm clearing, 3cm for post dated cheque clients.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

JTVLandscaping;1366693 said:


> All my resis are per push, my lots are seasonal. 2 seasonal lots, 1 per push commercial and 30 driveways. I'm a one man show, reinvesting every penny. If it doesn't snow in November, I'm making money doing leaf cleanups. The seasonal accounts make me enough to pay the bills and guarentee cash flow through out the season. And I shovel sidewalks because its good service and helps my back from stiffening up.


Same as I here in Winnipeg, was able to continue doing fall clean up into November. Even picked up a few clean ups after the 1st snowfall. Blowing snow with the leafs into large piles to be removed. Nothing like being paid to clear snow that is not there and bill clients for fall clean. Nov and Apr are my money months.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Weenuk;1366478 said:


> I believe the seasonal contract is a Canadien way more so then an american. Residentials were billed out seasonally in Toronto also when I worked there. You brought up numerous good points....


If that's so,this whole area is part of Canadatymusic.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

grandview;1366751 said:


> If that's so,this whole area is part of Canadatymusic.


You wish you were Canadien. Free medical care, lower drinking age, better beer and easier women


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

Stupid crazy taxes yup we're proud to be canadian! Guess beer is better cause its twice the price? have sell our fuel to the states to only buy it all back... Great idea


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Weenuk;1366778 said:


> You wish you were Canadien. Free medical care, lower drinking age, better beer and easier women


Well i have paid health,over 21 and they import the Labbatts here and just buy women a Timmy's and they'll do anything for you.And I don't even have to leave the states!Thumbs Up


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

Triple L;1366797 said:


> Stupid crazy taxes yup we're proud to be canadian! Guess beer is better cause its twice the price? have sell our fuel to the states to only buy it all back... Great idea


Canadian beer has a higher alcohol % over most american.

I use to bike race in Kitchener every summer. Won a race there once...


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Weenuk;1366729 said:


> Your business sounds similar to mine. Our snow season runs Nov1-Apr1. I offer 10% payment in full by Oct 25 (also let date slide), 5% for 5 post dated cheques. Clients that pay in full gets 2cm clearing, 3cm for post dated cheque clients.


We work on one payment only, all up front, or a post dated check for Jan. 3, 2012. Other wise its just to much paperwork to deal with.
I don't get your 2cm cleanup idea, that's not even worth cleaning up. Our trigger is 5cm


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Herm Witte;1366516 said:


> We've charged seasonally for over 50 years in West Michigan.


We charge seasonally in East Michigan Too......

Been in and around this business since 1979 and we have Always Offerd the Customer a Menu of Service and Pricing options...Seasonal with out salt, Seasonal All Inclusive, Per Push, Etc........:salute:


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Haven't done residential for years but here goes my view.

Average plowing events are 18. Average house goes for $400. That's $22/visit. Lets say you get 23 plowing events that year. That''s about $17/visit. So you have a 50 house route and it take's you 7 hours to do. Your truck uses $10/hour in fuel. Your extra cost is $350 for fuel plus your time and maybe so extra maintenance or repairs do to the extra work. Now you only have 13 plows that year. So you saved $350 in fuel, more time to stay home with the bride and maybe less repairs on your Ford. So on a normal year your income is $20,000, five more plows and your at $19,650 and five fewer plows $20,350.

Now lets say you are on per push. $22/push. 50 houses is $1100/push. Average year you get 23 pushes, that's $19,800/year. You get 23 pushes that's $25,300, you get 13 pushes that's $14,300. If you are a sole owner operator it is much easier to budget and pay your bills on seasonal contracts. If you have money in the bank, know to save for the rainy day then per push is the same in the end. so why not take seasonal contracts.

For all those people that feel people don't like to pay for a service they don't receive what is your opinion on house and car insurance.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

cet;1366867 said:


> Haven't done residential for years but here goes my view.
> 
> Average plowing events are 18. Average house goes for $400. That's $22/visit. Lets say you get 23 plowing events that year. That''s about $17/visit. So you have a 50 house route and it take's you 7 hours to do. Your truck uses $10/hour in fuel. Your extra cost is $350 for fuel plus your time and maybe so extra maintenance or repairs do to the extra work. Now you only have 13 plows that year. So you saved $350 in fuel, more time to stay home with the bride and maybe less repairs on your *GMC*. So on a normal year your income is $20,000, five more plows and your at $19,650 and five fewer plows $20,350.
> 
> ...


That's right,and fixed it.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

cet;1366867 said:


> Haven't done residential for years but here goes my view.
> 
> Average plowing events are 18. Average house goes for $400. That's $22/visit. Lets say you get 23 plowing events that year. That''s about $17/visit. So you have a 50 house route and it take's you 7 hours to do. Your truck uses $10/hour in fuel. Your extra cost is $350 for fuel plus your time and maybe so extra maintenance or repairs do to the extra work. Now you only have 13 plows that year. So you saved $350 in fuel, more time to stay home with the bride and maybe less repairs on your Ford. So on a normal year your income is $20,000, five more plows and your at $19,650 and five fewer plows $20,350.
> 
> ...


You wrote this perfectly. Reason why I ONLY offer seasonal contracts.

I use to live around from Huron Heights. Went to highschool at Dr GW Williams which I know is in Aurora, close to the "Cougar Pit". Lived in Richman Hill before moving here. Have you ever ran into Reynolds Landscape?

BTW, you have the ability to earn extra dough from salt runs. We do not have that here in Winnipeg as sand is mostly used due to colder temps...


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Weenuk;1366900 said:


> You wrote this perfectly. Reason why I ONLY offer seasonal contracts.
> 
> I use to live around from Huron Heights. Went to highschool at Dr GW Williams which I know is in Aurora, close to the "Cougar Pit". Lived in Richman Hill before moving here. Have you ever ran into Reynolds Landscape?
> 
> BTW, you have the ability to earn extra dough from salt runs. We do not have that here in Winnipeg as sand is mostly used due to colder temps...


Most of my salt is all in and I like that for the same reason. You know how many your season average is and you already need the equipment. For the places that are per app it is a flat rate set before the season starts.

GV I put that in just for you.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

cet;1366981 said:


> Most of my salt is all in and I like that for the same reason. You know how many your season average is and you already need the equipment. For the places that are per app it is a flat rate set before the season starts.
> 
> GV I put that in just for you.


Old boss told me only idiots included salt in the price. He made so much extra dough off salt only runs. I remember going out on more salt runs then plow runs in 2009....


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Weenuk;1366996 said:


> Old boss told me only idiots included salt in the price. He made so much extra dough off salt only runs. I remember going out on more salt runs then plow runs in 2009....


There is always more salt runs then plows, that's a given. You salt everytime you plow. Your Boss might be one of the guys that killed the salt extra. some guys can only see the small picture.


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## Weenuk (Nov 13, 2011)

cet;1367013 said:


> There is always more salt runs then plows, that's a given. You salt everytime you plow. Your Boss might be one of the guys that killed the salt extra. some guys can only see the small picture.


You could absolutely correct on this. He made so much extra on salt...


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

cet;1366867 said:


> Haven't done residential for years but here goes my view.
> 
> Average plowing events are 18. Average house goes for $400. That's $22/visit. Lets say you get 23 plowing events that year. That''s about $17/visit. So you have a 50 house route and it take's you 7 hours to do. Your truck uses $10/hour in fuel. Your extra cost is $350 for fuel plus your time and maybe so extra maintenance or repairs do to the extra work. Now you only have 13 plows that year. So you saved $350 in fuel, more time to stay home with the bride and maybe less repairs on your Ford. So on a normal year your income is $20,000, five more plows and your at $19,650 and five fewer plows $20,350.
> 
> ...


You have a VERY weird way of looking at numbers. Only a sole proprietor one man show would think those few things are all the extra costs to going out extra times.

I do agree that you do get to a similar end number in the end though. (on average)

I don't see how you can compair seasonal contracts to insurance?!? Have you honestly never had an insurance claim for anything? Unfortunately we seem to have some kind of claim every 2-3 years.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Seasonal contracts are just like insurance, it's there in case something happens. I do a few doctors offices as you know they book up patients everyday.So if it don't snow they don't have to reschedule anyone do to snow and they make cash. Now if it does snow,they have the satisfaction of knowing someone will be there to plow them out and hopefully don't need to cancel appointments because they paid their premium to have snow plowed out. If i was doing per push I would overbook work because you never know when the next snow is coming and show up when ever. With my seasonal contracts I'm know how much money I'm getting for the season ,so i don't need to chase it.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

I like to use the term "assurance". With a seasonal contract both parties benefit from assurance. The client is assured he/she is on a regular route and as a result they can budget their expense and the operator is assured of a steady income.

FYI, our per push clients guarantee us a minimum amount of pushes per season.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Well let me see,I've been plowing these same offices for 10 years and they never question the amount of the contract because they know if it snows I will be there to service them. 

Since this is a snow plowing forum I guess where talking about snowplowing.

It does make sense. If your doing a seasonal contract.I don't need to chase per plows or try and maybe squeak an extra plow in to meet my goal of income per storm.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

grandview;1367672 said:


> Well let me see,I've been plowing these same offices for 10 years and they never question the amount of the contract because they know if it snows I will be there to service them.
> 
> Since this is a snow plowing forum I guess where talking about snowplowing.
> 
> It does make sense. If your doing a seasonal contract.I don't need to chase per plows or try and maybe squeak an extra plow in to meet my goal of income per storm.


Customers are not stupid. Add an extra plowing in there and you will not have customers very long.

Seasonals do have there place... don't get me wrong. We do seasonal for
-Condo Associations
-Alleys
-Multi-Company office buildings.

Because these are all areas where the costs are shared and/or they are working on a fixed budget. These are places that NEED to know what they are paying.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

lawnlandscape;1367683 said:


> Customers are not stupid. Add an extra plowing in there and you will not have customers very long.
> 
> Seasonals do have there place... don't get me wrong. We do seasonal for
> -Condo Associations
> ...


Seasonals have there Place in ANY Situation.....If done correctly....I don't see what you have against a Steady stream of income coming in....


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Matson Snow;1367746 said:


> Seasonals have there Place in ANY Situation.....If done correctly....I don't see what you have against a Steady stream of income coming in....


 Can you please show me where I said that I have a problem with that?


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

So if I were to take anything away from this thread its that there is only one way to charge customers and only one guy is doing it correctly.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Think maybe it's time to lighten up.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Herm Witte;1367958 said:


> Think maybe it's time to lighten up.


OK.. yes I agree


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

I think it's time that we move on from this one

thanks


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