# max. amount of customers



## petesplow (Jan 19, 2003)

I may start my own plowing business next season, and am not sure what is the max. amount of customers I can book. I will do both residential and business lots, and will have one truck(probably with a straight plow).

Thanks any suggestions will help.


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## digger242j (Nov 22, 2001)

You can't think in terms of number of customers. You have to think in terms of how much plowing. 

You might find one commercial customer with a 10 acre lot and that would be all you could handle. If all your customers had one lane driveways 30 feet long and they were all right next to each other, a hundred might not be too many.

You'll also find that some customers demand earlier service than others, (a doctor who leaves for work at 6 a.m. will want done before then, but a resturant that only opens in the evening may not need to be done until 2 p.m.), so if you get a good mix you can handle more than if everybody wants done at once.

Don't be overly ambitious and bite off more than you can chew. Get a reputation for reliability, not unreliability. It'll pay off in the long run.


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## Rooster (Dec 13, 1999)

Plowing only, depending on how far apart accounts are and size will be a major factor. 

A question sure to come up is "What about ice control"?

Do you have contacts to apply de-icers?

Over all just guessing I would say 3 commerical accounts or less, and the 3 all being small lots. If you get a major amount of snow fall you want to offer on time professional service. 

Also do you have any contacts to asssit you if you have a breakdown? 

As for residential accounts that amount can vary, I always inform residential customers that the commerical accounts have priority. You might try to find some teenagers to shovel or use snowblowers for residential.

Just a thought.

Good Luck!!!

Rick


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## Rooster (Dec 13, 1999)

Another idea:

Go to: http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com

That site is owned by our own Chuck Smith Senior Moderator on Plowsite.com.

He has written a book for snowplowing, also check into joining SIMA, I believe you can purchase the book thru SIMA also.

You can email Chuck Smith also, it may take a day or two for him to answer as he does have a job outsidie of Plowsite!

Rick


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## chris k (Nov 5, 2002)

I go by the total hours. I don't want any truck taking any more than 4-5 hours for their route. That is for your one pass storm with an experienced driver. Once a truck is over that time then I get another truck. I find that any more tan that the customers start to get a little itchy. The ones at the end of the route start to call wondering where the plow is. Works well.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

As a suggestion for starting out - limit to 3 or 4 driveways that are like 50 feet long with a parking area in front of a garage. If you do that, you'll get an idea of how long it takes to plow different areas, you'll get experience at backdragging, locating areas to pile snow and how to plow different depths/types of snow. Then the second year you'll be ready to go after some commercial lots. Also, your insurance will be less if you're limiting to "residential only". The first year you could fill in by taking some callers or sub work.


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## BRL (Dec 21, 1999)

That is a generic question that is very difficult to answer. Some people here can plow 50 -60 driveways \hour because they are routed close together, they have lots of experience, and are using the right equipment. Might take me 4 hours to do those same 50 -60 houses here for the reasons mentioned. So as mentioned, you have to think in terms of how much time you have available as opposed to how many clients, based on your abilities. Think about how long you want to be out, then think about the worst case scenario for each as far as how long they may take. So in the case Rooster makes, worst case scenario 2 of those small lots could take an hour & the 3rd one 2 hours. Figure 12 driveways at 15 minutes each and now you've got yourself a managable 8 hour plow shift including some time for travel. Always have a back up plan (subcontractor, spare truck + plow, salting services) because something will break eventually and sometimes everything breaks. During one blizzard here ('96 28"-35") I knew of one company with 13 trucks that lost 12 of them to various problems before the snow stopped :-( . For another snow plowing book to check out, you could PM or Email John Allin here about his book. Its against PS rules to post the link to the web site where it's on sale, so I can't post that.


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## petesplow (Jan 19, 2003)

*30 res. 4 comm.*

If I am working by myself with one truck 30 residential driveways and about 3 or 4 small plaza parking lots, is this going to too much. Since I only have one truck any snow that would have to be moved off site I would call a contractor and pass the bill to the client. Also these would be a couple minute drive from each other, and hopefully I will have some that are grouped in a subdivivsion.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Too much? Yes. I really think you're overcommiting yourself. 

Ignoring the fact that you only have one truck and plow, no backup - Let's estimate your time at each residential to be 15 minutes. For 30 residentials, that's 7 1/2 hours. Add in 3 shopping plazas at 30 minutes each ( 1 1/2 hour) - Total time is 9 hours. Plus travel/fuel/food time. Any breakdown and you're in trouble. That's for an average snowfall - if you're planning to wait till the snow is over, it'll take longer at each place. If you're planning to "plow with the storm" each round will still take AT LEAST nine hours - more since it'll be in a snow storm.

Are you going to be doing any ice control (salting). That takes more time. Are you going to customize service according to customer needs? Especially if you're doing commercial. That'll take more time.

But, hey, go for it. Good luck.


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## landman (Dec 2, 2001)

My sugestion would be to pick up a few driveways on your own and look into sub-contracting for a larger company for a season. This way you still make money directly by having your own accounts and get the experience of larger places to get a feel about plowing techniques and ideas of how long it takes to plow certain areas. This way your on the clock for somebody else and if your truck goes down it wouldn't be a big concern if accounts don't get done cause the GC will have another truck finish what you can't. And even if your truck goes down you could do your driveways with a snow blower and get them done.


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## Earthscapes (Feb 2, 2001)

Mick--- 15 min. at each residential ??? man how big are your driveways out there ??

petesplow--- last year i had 60 residentials and my route took about 3 hrs with an average of 5" per snowfall. Most of them were in groups say, 3 or 4 next door to each other. An average time per resi. driveway is 2min. to plow, plus drive time to get to each of them.
If you plan to shovel walks thats what will kill your time.


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## petesplow (Jan 19, 2003)

Earthscapes- thanks for you reply, when you did 60 driveways did you have a single truck, or did you have multiple trucks plowing.


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## Earthscapes (Feb 2, 2001)

oops sorry i forgot to add that. I only had one last yr my 90' Chevy.

I'm running 2 trucks this year with a little over 80 accounts and 6 are commercial lots(nothing large just what pickups can handle). Average run 2hrs.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

80 residentials and 6 commercial lots in 2 hours???

It's all based on local situation. Just came in from a typical one. Drive 5 miles to get to the house. The driveway is about 100' long with a 90 degree turn into a lot in front of the garage. Lot is about 80' x 50' with garage on one side, house on another and push the snow over the edge of the fourth side. All areas are gravel and hard pack. Takes about 10 - 15 minutes with backdragging from the house. Now getting ready to go out to five in the same general area (within six miles of each other).


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## Got Snow (Jan 21, 2003)

i have 35 driveways and this takes around 9 hours an average. with larger snowfalls (like the one we had 3 weeks ago) it's prety much non-stop. i only have 1 truck. just subbed out 12 driveways.


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## Earthscapes (Feb 2, 2001)

LOL Mick,, i'll go take some pictures of our average driveways.

Gravel won't touch the stuff,,too much of a pain in the spring to deal with.

Your right location is the key. I dropped 26 driveways from last yr b/c the drive time was killing me. I can't see driving 10 miles for 1 driveway, unless they pay BIG money.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

You DROPPED 26 driveways? I couldn't even handle 26 driveways up here. 

Yeah, it's funny comparing circumstances. But the point I was trying to make originally was not to get over-committed the first year. I'd still say that a 2-3 hour route is good to learn with the first year (goes along with Digger242j's idea of time vs # of customers). Then, it's hard for someone to judge what's going to take that amount of time for an average without experience. That's why I figured an "average" drive at 15 minutes (I've got one that takes 40 minutes and another that takes 30 - not counting drive time).


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## Got Grass? (Feb 18, 2001)

30 some here & a parking lot in really bad shape I can only go about 2mpg in. Takes about 3.5hrs total to clean them up real nice & shovel a couple walks. 
It's all about location & grouping them together, Most of mine I have at least 2 together, I have a few small blocks that I have 4 on. My route is pretty much a big figure 9 with all my drives 1-2 blocks off that.

It's hard sometimes to say no to summer customers who pay well but are out of your winter route. You have to determine weather it is worth it or not for your buisness...


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## Earthscapes (Feb 2, 2001)

Mick these are for you, not quite as large as yours:


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## Earthscapes (Feb 2, 2001)

One more,,these are average, with 1 1/2" of snow on them from last nite. The driveway on the house to the right is 1/4 mile long and 30' wide,but the pic looked like crap


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Thanks for the pictures, Earthscapes. I have some pictures of one of my drives. I went to see about posting. There are 13 pictures (long shots) and only cover about 1/4 of the drive. I took the pictures before it snowed so I could refer back to them for push off areas, drop offs, curves etc. Too much to put on here, I think. If it's ok, I'll post them.

Something like in your picture wouldn't even get plowed around here.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

didn't work


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## BRL (Dec 21, 1999)

Ahhh... To see real snow..... Sigh.....
Thanks Earthscapes!!

Nice easy plows, so 2-4 minutes in & out & on to the next one. I like that you have it set up to push in & pile near the house. However, I would try to make that pile further down the driveway somewhere. That big pile that close to the house would really hamper the efforts of firefighters if there were ever a fire there. Just a thought that popped into my head looking at it.


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## Earthscapes (Feb 2, 2001)

BRL----thats where the turn around is,,, anyway if that house ever burned they couldn't get into the garage anyway. 2 cars in there and the customer is out of town for the winter. Plus the fire hydrant is in the front yard about 30' from the house.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I think I finally got this figured out.

Earthscapes, this is about 1/3 of one driveway.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Another shot of the same driveway.


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## NNJSnow (Feb 16, 2002)

Mick is that your account, thanks a long drive, and a hell of one of those "picture perfect" driveways to plow.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Yes, it's my account. My wife went with my that time to take pictures. It's 7/10 mile long and all just like you see there. That's the one where they told me to use my discretion of when to plow and sand. He told me last week that it would be mine next year too.


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## MotoMan (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Earthscapes _
> *last year i had 60 residentials and my route took about 3 hrs with an average of 5" per snowfall. Most of them were in groups say, 3 or 4 next door to each other. An average time per resi. driveway is 2min. to plow, plus drive time to get to each of them.
> If you plan to shovel walks thats what will kill your time. *


Thanks Earthscapes!

I too am thinking about getting into the biz and that is what I was trying to figure out. What's the average time per drive? How many can I do in an hour?

I know how much I can charge and how much it's going to cost to get set up, but I didn't know how much I could take on or how much I could gross with one truck. I have plowed parking lots for a friend of mine, but I never did more than a couple of drives, so I was just guessing, but I was thinking 5-6 minutes a drive including travel (not including trips to get gas and donuts though.) Sounds like your averaging closer to 3 minutes a drive with your travel. I would be staying in one or two developments that are much like the pictures you posted.

Because I would be putting a plow on my Tundra, I will not do commercial accounts. I think plowing lots would be too rough on my light truck. I would stick to the newer developments that have those nice little cement drives. I plan to stay away from those gravel drives and I don't plan on doing any salting or shoveling. . The areas I would work are within 2 miles of my home and there are literally 1000's of nice little cement driveways. There are over 1300 homes in the one development alone.

I was thinking of staying in the development that more closely resembles the first picture you posted. The drives would be smaller and the accounts would be closer together. I feel this is important because of the truck I am planning to use…less work per account. I could go for the slightly larger homes, but I am concerned that the longer pushes and bigger snow stacks might be too much for a ½ ton. What do you think?

If I focused on the smaller ones, what do you feel would be a reasonable number to shoot for and how long for one truck to do them?

Don't take me the wrong way…I don't plan on getting rich doing this. I have been self-employed for over 13 years now and I don't work in the winter. I am just looking for a way to make a little extra during the winter.

Thanks in advance.


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## MotoMan (Feb 18, 2003)

Oh yea, I would be putting a Snoway MT90 (7'6" and 24" tall) on the truck without a back blade. 

I was thinking of angling it on the way in and then back-dragging on the way out. I figure a couple passes like this, then pile it up and move on.


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## MotoMan (Feb 18, 2003)

Top.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I didn't want to start a new thread. I am hoping for a little more info. Thanks.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

Just was reading and had to chime in. 60 drives in three hours(180minutes). So I start doing the math because I am the owner of my business and everything is about time and cost. If you spending 2-4 minutes a drive, (not happening) how does 60 drives equal 180 minutes? What about travel time to the first drive and back to where ever after the last drive? Do you shovel any walks?? What about driving conditions, snow packed roads, traffic, waiting for the guy to back out of the drive as you pull up? Or maybe these are thing that only effected my times when I was still doing residentials? (which I do not do anymore and will sell my trucks if I would ever have to resort to doing residentials ever. 

If a guy is looking for advice maybe givng an accurate account of what things are really like might help. Some of the responses have be good advice, start out slow, get a few accounts and work out the different times for different conditions. But to make a blanket statement like a residentail dive in 2-4 mins, 60 accounts in 3 hours. NO WAY. No better than the guy that tells you should be able to cut grass at 4 houses an hour. Gives the crew 30 lanws to cut and does not understand why they take more than 8 hours to cut 30 lawns. Stop and think, even at 4 an hours it is impossible to cut 30 lawns in 8 hours. 

Easy answer, there is not one. Snow plowing, with or without salting is a battle between you, the clock, and good old mother nature. You have got to be kidding 80 accounts with two trucks in two hours....... Am I the only person that thinks this is alittle unreal. No two snow falls are the same. Heavy, light, fluffy, windy, driven on(not driven on) sun shine, sub zero temps, and the factors go on and on. 

BTW I saw the pictures, and those were the drives I was doing when I started out doing residentials, even when I was getting good, backdragging, had a snow pile started, more like 5 - 8 mintues for a 2-6" snowfall. And that as with a 8' plow. Did that for three years, and I am abit anal so yes I keep records on snow fall and times (as we all should be doing for insurance reasons) so lets all work with the standard time measurement and not the EGO standard of time measurement.

Ron Owner, Forever Green Lawns, Inc.


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## Got Grass? (Feb 18, 2001)

I do about 40 in 3hrs. Mine arnt as close as Earthscapes. Of cource we arnt talking about 7ft of snow that takes much longer odviously. But when you live arround here with the over development, it's pretty easy to get 20 houses in a square mile.


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## Snoworks (Jan 22, 2002)

4evergreenlawns - I understand your position regarding per driveway plowing times. Here is what I have learned over the years plowing residential driveways!

Experience - 200 plus residential accounts each year

If you have a plowing route that is say 20 miles or longer, from start to finish, it will be tough to get any better than 6-8 min. depending on the size of driveways.

If you have a plowing route that is say 10 miles or shorter, from start to finish, it is possible to get 3-5 min. per driveway!

The key is to get the most driveways in the smallest area possible. I used to think that the Higher dollar amount driveways were the best route to go, regarding revenue/profit. This was not the case after years of trial and error. It is best to get driveways bunched together, even if the dollar amounts our say 30% cheaper than a typical contract price. 

New way: I can plow 50 driveways in a three block area in less than 2 1/2 hours 50 x 230 = $11,500

Old way: Plow 35 driveways in a 30 mile route in 4 1/2 hours 35 x 310 = $10,800

Less labor expenses, less wear and tear on truck, more time to do other plowing work, etc.

Chuck B.


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## kojak (Mar 27, 2003)

I have a question regarding the commercial lots. I realize time depends on size, accessibility, condition of paving, etc... I'm trying to figure time it will take to clear some commercial lots I'm interested in and would like a bit of a way of understanding what is considered a small, medium or large lot?

I'm running on the assumption that a Wall-mart would be a large lot.

A 50 unit apartment complex a medium lot.

A 7-11 a small lot.

In this this I'm looking at doing about 8 small lots, a couple in need of paving, and three medium lots, all well paved, all within a five mile route, with a small amount of shoveling, and no salting. from what I've read, for a beginner I should be able to handle these in five hours, leaving me time to handle extra work if I can find some.

Kojak


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## Snoworks (Jan 22, 2002)

Kojack - Without going into to much detail, I would consider any lot over an acre as large. You should be able to plow an acre lot in about an hour dependant on the size plow you use. In this case it would be an 8' wide plow. 

As for small lots, like the 7-11's, you suggested, I would figure between 30min. to 45min. to be safe! 

As far as Condo. complexes go, the ranges could vary greatly, due to obsticals, etc. 

Chuck B.


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