# Snowblower thread for the rookies !



## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Hey guys!

I'm new to the snow game as I have been a lawn / garden guy for the past 8 years.

On topics of snowblowers I have been reading on this site and getting some great suggestions.

I'm thinking of getting ramps, and maybe 2 single stage Toro Power Clear's, what are your thoughts on this?

In terms of ramps, would metal ramps freeze in the winter and get icy?

I live in Toronto Canada, the winters are all over the place.

I also have to get snow tires this year for the truck, Buff was saying Duratracs, any suggestions?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Try doing some searches. Thumbs Up

Most of those topics have been beat to death on this site. :hammerhead:


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Get a plow for the truck.
As for tires get the round ones, without a continuous center rib.
Tell & skinney is the way to go.

All ramps can get slickery.
Just use a strap to hold them in place they like to move and fall when your half way down.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Toro single stage blowers do not drive by the wheels , most guys just pick them up and set in back of truck .


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm buying a set of duratracs this year to try. Tires are a very personal choice and have been beaten to death in other threads. Like sno says get ones without a continuous center rib and have plenty siping to them. I would also suggest buying a plow as I'm not sure how you can make any money only doing residential with blowers. You will need to get some commercial walks mixed in if you want to make money instead of doing it for free which is what will happen because it takes sooooooo long.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> I'm buying a set of duratracs this year to try. Tires are a very personal choice and have been beaten to death in other threads. Like sno says get ones without a continuous center rib and have plenty siping to them. I would also suggest buying a plow as I'm not sure how you can make any money only doing residential with blowers. You will need to get some commercial walks mixed in if you want to make money instead of doing it for free which is what will happen because it takes sooooooo long.


In your other thread I made a comment about having a few guys and making it work. I need to correct this. I got out of residential because it wasn't worth the hassle, with what I was making. Commercial walks (at least around here) is where the money is. Subcontract for a big local company, they're always looking for good RELIABLE sidewalk guys. Each area and company are different, but depending on equipment and workere you can make good money with sidewalks. Just make sure your insurance matches what you're doing, make sure slip and falls are covered, if you have employees you need work comp (I assume, not familiar with laws up there), make sure you're insurance knows you're doing commercial walks, but that you aren't using a plow.

We probably don't get the amount of snow you get, but I've never had an issue with my all terrain tires if they have good tread. If I slip, I throw it in 4wd.

Don't even bother with ramps unless you're using a 2 stage. The Toros are light enough to just lift in. Believe me, ramps are a pain. Avoid them if you can. When I do have to use ramps I use 2x8 lumber with those ramp attachment things (if you don't know I'll find a link). I have nailed 1x3 blocks up every 8" or so for traction. I build decks, so this was basically free for me. I've never used the metal ones, so I can't tell you about them. I also never walked up the ramps myself. I stayed on the ground while I let the blower roll up the ramps.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> In your other thread I made a comment about having a few guys and making it work. I need to correct this. I got out of residential because it wasn't worth the hassle, with what I was making. Commercial walks (at least around here) is where the money is. Subcontract for a big local company, they're always looking for good RELIABLE sidewalk guys. Each area and company are different, but depending on equipment and workere you can make good money with sidewalks. Just make sure your insurance matches what you're doing, make sure slip and falls are covered, if you have employees you need work comp (I assume, not familiar with laws up there), make sure you're insurance knows you're doing commercial walks, but that you aren't using a plow.
> 
> We probably don't get the amount of snow you get, but I've never had an issue with my all terrain tires if they have good tread. If I slip, I throw it in 4wd.
> 
> Don't even bother with ramps unless you're using a 2 stage. The Toros are light enough to just lift in. Believe me, ramps are a pain. Avoid them if you can. When I do have to use ramps I use 2x8 lumber with those ramp attachment things (if you don't know I'll find a link). I have nailed 1x3 blocks up every 8" or so for traction. I build decks, so this was basically free for me. I've never used the metal ones, so I can't tell you about them. I also never walked up the ramps myself. I stayed on the ground while I let the blower roll up the ramps.


I was thinking of you when I suggested he do the commercial walks. Figured you would be able to answer better than me so I made it short and sweet hoping you could set em straight.Thumbs Up


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Okay, so your saying it would be a waste of time to do snow removal without a plow in a nutshell?

Would two guys with 2 blowers do some damage on small residential driveways?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Okay, so your saying it would be a waste of time to do snow removal without a plow in a nutshell?
> 
> Would two guys with 2 blowers do some damage on small residential driveways?


Check your other thread...

You can make money doing what you do... it is how you chose to scale it that makes it or breaks it. As I said in the other thread, overhead is a huge factor that you will not have much of.

I think you need to sit down and crunch some numbers to see what makes money for YOU and change things from there.

There is a company in my area that does nothing but the public walks with 463 bobcats... they have been doing it for years... I am guessing that if that company has been doing nothing but those walks for this many years, they must be making money doing their "niche" market work. You need to do what works for you and not try to change the world overnight by yourself. You will end up out of business...


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

I'm thinking 2 guys with 2 snowblowers as a start, maybe 15 - 20 minutes per driveway? 20 minutes travel time between homes.

Maybe take on only 5 - 8 clients this season perhaps. 

In terms of charging people I know that's a whole other issue, what are some basics I can start with?

A Flat monthly rate ?
Per cleaning service?
Hourly rate ? ( 80 $ per hour )


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> I'm thinking 2 guys with 2 snowblowers as a start, maybe 15 - 20 minutes per driveway? 20 minutes travel time between homes.
> 
> Maybe take on only 5 - 8 clients this season perhaps.
> 
> ...


With hourly you want to charge a minimum anyway so look at staying away from telling them the hourly price and do a per trip price instead. Plus what Philbilly said. I think if you have two blowers and two guys you can do more drives than 8. Maybe start with 8 per guy depending on size too


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> I'm thinking 2 guys with 2 snowblowers as a start, maybe 15 - 20 minutes per driveway? 20 minutes travel time between homes.
> 
> Maybe take on only 5 - 8 clients this season perhaps.
> 
> ...


I would take on more than that. I would not try to do 100 drives, but if you have good equipment and good help, as long as your bottom line adds up to profit, I would think you can get more accounts than 8.

Honestly, your bottom line would have be be close to nothing for 8 drives to cover 2 blowers as you would have an employee you have to pay in addition to yourself...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

ktfbgb said:


> With hourly you want to charge a minimum anyway so look at staying away from telling them the hourly price and do a per trip price instead. Plus what Philbilly said. I think if you have two blowers and two guys you can do more drives than 8. Maybe start with 8 per guy depending on size too


Ha!!! Looks like we are on the same page here...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Oh, and go flat rate clearing rate on residential. Hourly is not a money maker on a driveway.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

JMHConstruction said:


> In your other thread I made a comment about having a few guys and making it work. I need to correct this. I got out of residential because it wasn't worth the hassle, with what I was making. Commercial walks (at least around here) is where the money is.


From the other side of the fence...

You have to let the young bucks start somewhere... He will find his niche as you did... heck as we all have! You have some good advice here for him, but you also have to remember how you got to where you are now.

I know that at 20, I was not able to afford the equipment and insurance to even do commercial work... hell, I had enough trouble keeping my house...


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

I'm 28 now, so not that young anymore, lol ! 

Wow you had a home at 20? Times have changed indeed.

So for example,

Would a 50 - 80$ flat rate be a pretty accurate price for a 15 x 30 ft driveway? In terms of "Per service" 

Or perhaps, 200$ per month unlimited? ( I can see how this could be good or BAD though living in Toronto )

The driveway's I will be doing are not large, 2 car garages, 2000 - 2400 square foot homes.

When cutting grass I charge 80$ per hour, 20 - 30 mins is the average time for an average home if I take my time. ( I don't tell them the rate )


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

I have a cluster of resi's in a subdivision, driveways are 16x30 they have aboot 40' of walk. Each takes aboot 5-7minutes each and I get $35 for 1-6", $45 for 6-12" using a plow and shovel.
There a group of Mexicans (4) the shovel the same size driveways in the same amount of time as me.
At the end of the day we sell time and time is money.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

What would you think in terms of snow blower time for those driveway sizes Buff?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> What would you think in terms of snow blower time for those driveway sizes Buff?


 I have found you can shovel up to aboot 7-8" faster than it takes to unload a blower blow and load the blower. In my situation I use a SS Honda for walks for snows over 8".
If I had to put a time on the driveways ewe've talking aboot using a SS blower 2 guys should be able to do them in aboot 6-7 minutes and I'd be less if they shoveled with lower accumulations. I also use a BP blower for fluffy /dry snows up to aboot 3"


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

You'll have to come up with numbers on your own. We are all in a different area, so we can't help you there. Most people think we're just being an a$$, but what I get here will not be accurate where you live. You'll have to crunch you own numbers and find what you have to charge to make money.

I'll throw out the insurance card. If you have an employee you'll need added insurance. That will make your overhead and job costs go up. Make sure you charge (or can charge) enough to do this.

As Phil suggested, everyone starts somewhere. Some stay with it, others change. It's what works for you personally. The first time I did think I had only myself and did 10 drives. It took me anywhere from 10-30 minutes a driveway. I did it while working full time, so I didn't want to overwhelm myself (I was working as a carpenter and didn't work when it snowed, so it wasn't a big deal working around that.). It took me about 5 hours, but only because the drive times killed me. Because of what I did and most people around here shovel their own drive I might have a 20 minute drive between places. It just didn't work for me personally. It doesn't mean it won't work for you.

Like I said above I do commercial walks for other companies. It's mainly drive time. I can make 3 times as much in one location before driving to the next. I have 2-3 crews now, and add something every year. This year is a plow, so I can stay warmThumbs Up. It is MUCH cheaper adding blowers and shovels. For the numbers I've added, with the added insurance, repair costs, and plow costs, in my area a small 2-3 man crew will make more on walks than a plow will bring in (subcontracting both). I have brought in $14k usd a year per crew on some years. We only average about 20ish inches per year here. And since overhead is pretty nonexistent (adds less than $1k usd for insurance for my company, with only sidewalks) most is profit, and without beating expensive equipment up. As far as dollar amounts snow is not a make it or break it part of my business, but it allows me to shut down shop and not deal with "winter deal shoppers" for the winter months and still pay bills and give guys hours to work. Again though, these are all MY location and yours will be different.

Start where you need to, be it just yourself and a blower, or a few guys knocking it out quicker. Remember snow is FAST money, not big money. The faster and more efficient the more you make. If you can get each job done a little faster you can add more accounts, and that is how to make money in snow. Most guys think it's just $$$ falling from the sky, but you have to bust your ass doing it.

Let me know if I can answer your questions, because good or bad, if it has to do with removing snow without using big equipment I'm sure my dumbass has done it :hammerhead:. Best of luck to ya.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Amazing, thank you JMH, really appreciate that response !


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

To do your 10 driveways, what time would you recommend beginning at, if snow let's say, is falling all night.
Would it be best to try and clear snow closer to 4 am 5 am?

Or maybe head out and start at 3 am? I know it all depends on how many houses you have and such.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I will also add this.
http://www.jmenterprises.com
BEST thing you can add for the price. I added one for each guy last year and production more than doubled. The more I used it, I really like the wheeled one, but for the added costs just get the regular pushers. I have all 36" (I also have 22" pushers and some scoop shovels if the snow is too deep for the 36" ones). I have all the different brands of these, but the snow plow seems to be built the best, then snowcaster. DON'T BUY YO-HO! Then as Buff mentioned, if snow is too much switch to blower.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Most resi's want to be cleared by 7a oot my way


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> To do your 10 driveways, what time would you recommend beginning at, if snow let's say, is falling all night.
> Would it be best to try and clear snow closer to 4 am 5 am?
> 
> Or maybe head out and start at 3 am? I know it all depends on how many houses you have and such.


It all depends on your route and time it takes to complete it. With residential they want it done before they leave for work. Talk with them and see what time the earliest person leaves and comes back. Plan according to that. Same when they get home. If it's snowing in the day make sure it's clear when they come home. If it's snowing a lot, do the route more than once if you need so it doesn't get too deep for both them and yourself.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

If I were to clear lets say twice for one client, they would get charged twice for that day? If I'm doing a per service agreeement?

ie. 50$ per service x 2 services.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I had a 1-3" 3-6" 6-9" and so on. Each had an additional cost. Say first tier was $45 second was $70 etc. If you need to make more tips or one trip (depending on timing) you'd make what the storm accumulated as a whole and charge accordingly. To me, it worked and people weren't questioning me coming out too many times and charging 2-3x per time. That way it was in the contract what the storm would cost. Just take pictures and lots of notes if someone wants to argue.

Edit: There are many different ways to charge for snow. Do a little reading on here to figure out each on. You can also provide a season rate.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> If I were to clear lets say twice for one client, they would get charged twice for that day? If I'm doing a per service agreeement?
> 
> ie. 50$ per service x 2 services.


Yes. You set a trigger with the client in the contract.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I just picked up a 2 stage ariens 32" 16.5hp commercial pro. I also have my smaller 2 stage 5hp 20" ariens as a back up, the thing is ancient but throws snow like crazy! I have 2 sets of ramps but will only use the aluminum bi-fold ramp with straps I just picked up. I've used the metal ramps in the past and they work fine and don't freeze up...they have grip on them also.

Plenty of guys on here will tell you to get a plow for your truck. If you can justify the need for one, then get one. Otherwise stick to blowers. Plows cost a lot and put a lot of wear on small half ton trucks. If you buy a new plow up here for a half ton, your looking at around $7k...that's a lot of snow to plow in residential in order to get that money back and turn a profit. You might as well sit in your basement by the fire and drink rum!

But a new ariens blower can cost around $1500 roughly depending on model, and get the job done for what you and I are doing. I thought about doing commercial this year, but it's not going to happen. Start small, with blowers...pretty much just like everybody else on here and then next season look into getting a plow and a bigger truck for commercial or big estate laneways. I'm just starting this year as well.

I charge a flat rate for the season. Starting at $400 per single car driveway. Unlimited visits for the season. 2" trigger. I usually go up another $100 per parking spot. This is around the average price for my area. Not sure what Toronto is like, but your only 1.5hrs away so I would imagine roughly the same in pricing. Everybody prices different, and eventually you'll find out what works for you, what your costs are, and what the going rate for your area is etc.

Stay small for now and keep your overhead as low as possible. The deals are out there so keep an eye out for them daily! Kijiji will be your best bet.

Good luck


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

OH and for tires, I've had my Firestone transforce A/T tires for 4 years now and there's still over 60% tread left. I rotate them once a year. They wear very nice, and have always worked well in the snow. Drive accordingly and you'll be fine...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

HadiCoop said:


> Plenty of guys on here will tell you to get a plow for your truck. If you can justify the need for one, then get one. Otherwise stick to blowers. Plows cost a lot and put a lot of wear on small half ton trucks. If you buy a new plow up here for a half ton, your looking at around $7k...that's a lot of snow to plow in residential in order to get that money back and turn a profit. You might as well sit in your basement by the fire and drink rum!


Just for argument sake, so getting a plow in the future doesn't scare either of you. With your prices if you get 18 drives you've paid for your plow. Get 25 and your probably covering your overhead. Then the plow is paid for the first year. If they're close together 25 drives is nothing with a plow.

It's more about start up cash, and the truck. Around here there's a lot of half tons pushing snow. Probably as many half tons as 3/4 and 1 tons. We get much less snow, so it's not as much work. It will be the hell out of any truck, and the heavier duty trucks can take it much better. Just for less headaches for you I'd get at least a 3/4 ton before putting a heavy piece of metal on the front.

If you can justify the business and costs don't be afraid to get a plow set up. I'll sit all day and argue you don't need one to make money, but it makes making money easier on you.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I agree 100%, start up money & clientele is hard to come by first starting out. That's why I'm using a blower this year and we'll see where it goes for next year. There's a couple guys in my area that do nothing but residential with blowers and make a very good living.There's also a lot of guys in my area with plows on 1500s and they burn them out quick. We tend to get a lot of snow up here. Lol I do look forward to one day sitting in the truck with heat though!


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

HadiCoop said:


> OH and for tires, I've had my Firestone transforce A/T tires for 4 years now and there's still over 60% tread left. I rotate them once a year. They wear very nice, and have always worked well in the snow. Drive accordingly and you'll be fine...


OP do not get the firestone trans force tires. They came on my truck from the dealer and I got 10,000 miles out of them before they were too bald for snow. Granted I pull a work trailer every day but still they are pretty crappy and are not very aggressive. More of a highway and very light off road tire. If there is any mud they just sit and spin. Maybe HadiCoop got a good set or maybe I got a bad set but beware of those tires.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

My brother works at a diesel shop and he sells Firestone transforce ats all the time. They're a great tire! I think you may have got a bad set. Mine work great. Haven't tried mud and don't plan too...but snow, ice, rain etc, I haven't had a problem


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Thanks HadiCoop much appreciated,

I have a general question for you guys as well, speaking of keeping low overhead, lol.

I was quoted for commercial business insurance at 4500$ for the year, which is roughly 370 $ per month or so.
With my truck, insurance, business expenses, new tires and rims, new blowers and shovels I simply can fork out another 400$ per month.

Is business insurance absolutely crucial if I'm doing a handful of residential homes this winter?

What If I simply have a verbal agreement with the client on a cash basis, no contracts.

I've had my lawn company running legitimately for 2 years now, revenue isn't bad, but I'm not sure I'm large enough to require business insurance just yet.

Any thoughts on what I can do? 

Have a feeling I just created a **** storm bubs..


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

And a plow is out of the question currently as I am running an F - 150 XLT 4x4, 6 cyclinder.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Is business insurance absolutely crucial if I'm doing a handful of residential homes this winter?
> 
> What If I simply have a verbal agreement with the client on a cash basis, no contracts.
> 
> ...


WHOA!!!!!! Time oot.........
You don't have any General Liability coverage?

$4500 seems very expensive but you're on the eastside of Canada.

FWIW the excuse "doing a handful" is just an attempt to make yourself feel better aboot no doing the right thing.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Not at the moment, what do you pay monthly Buff ?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Not at the moment, what do you pay monthly Buff ?


Pay it annually, I'm solo unless I have my son help oot and it's less than $1k for $2m coverage.
I do use subs and they're required to have coverage, if not no work.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

That's way too much! Call Dan attridge at brokerlink. I pay $115/month for general liability 2million in coverage. That covers Lawncare & snow removal with the use of blowers and shovels for residential & commercial...if there was a small commercial lot. Lol actually the Lawncare was around $700 per year and the difference is for snow removal. Pretty cheap if you ask me
Here's his number
Direct:905-751-2154
Cell:647-465-6956

$4500 is way too much, run from them!


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Oh man that's amazing ! Lol,

I will definitely call him.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Can I reference your name HadiCoop? lol


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I think you'll be fine without the reference. But not to bad eh?! That's more than justifiable! I got quotes earlier in the year and most companies wanted around $2-$3k per year just for snow! And I thought that was high...but $4500? Really? Con artists....

Now I'm not saying you'll get that rate, but I'm willing to bet it'll be close.

Do you have a clean record?
Any claims in the past?
How much experience in the lawn & snow industry do you have?
They'll ask a lot of questions, so obviously your answers will be different than mine. Ive been doing both since 2008. But I went into business legally about 2 months ago.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Yeah man that was a quote from a broker who does my commercial auto insurance, he said the best quote was from Royal Sun Alliance.

Hadi, do you think charging flat seasonal rates are more beneficial then charging per push estimates?

Currently I'm looking like this:

Per push:
* Trigger :
3 cm
3 - 10 cm = 40$
10 - 20 cm = 50$
20 - 30 cm = 60$
30 cm + = 70$

Seasonal:
150$ per month unlimited visits, salting / de-icing extra ?

I need to learn more about deicing and salting, during freezing rain nights for example, how would you price that, perhaps hourly?

My seasonal lawn care clients range from 100$ to 160$ per month typically. 2 - 4 cuts per month.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

If terms of 2015, how many visits would you guys say you made to your Resi clients on average monthly?

I know it varies by location, just looking for a feel.

I've been researching Toronto accumulations, roughly 120 cm per season,


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I've never priced per push so I can't say. I've always gone with a flat rate for the season and that works well for me. You should be able to buy bags of salt for around $5-$10 per bag. Then charge them per app. How long will It take you to salt a single car driveway? Less than a minute right? Then figure out how much you want to make off it. Charge them $20-$30....


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> If terms of 2015, how many visits would you guys say you made to your Resi clients on average monthly?
> 
> I know it varies by location, just looking for a feel.
> 
> I've been researching Toronto accumulations, roughly 120 cm per season,


You guys didn't get much last year I don't think. BUT, they are calling for a LOT of snow this year for southern Ontario


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Yeah I've heard! 

In terms of salting, will you do this only when there is freezing rain or after you clear a driveway you'll drop some just in case? 

Especially walkways I would imagine and when the temperature hovers around 0 and -2 degrees.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I only apply it when clients request it...but yes you would want to do it if there's freezing rain. It all depends on what you and the client have written in the contract..


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Get insurance. Even if you end up not doing snow, you have to have insurance.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Whoa I can't believe that you are running a landscaping company without general liability. If you were smart you wouldn't cut another blade of grass until you have this taken care of. And Canada from what I have heard is more strict about it than in the U.S. The first time there is some type of accident there goes all your equipment, your truck, your house, your wages for the rest of your life will go to the person who sues you. Don't even think about doing snow until you have it.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

I will get on it ASAP.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I did Lawncare for 8 years without insurance, never had a problem. And there's a ton of guys out there that don't either.

But yes your right, if something does happen and you get sued...you can lose everything. I just got mine about 2 months ago.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Here in Canada we don't generally sue like you guys 

Same here, this would be my 8th year, 2nd season an an official registered business.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Here in Canada we don't generally sue like you guys
> 
> Same here, this would be my 8th year, 2nd season an an official registered business.


Ya, I'm sure it can happen. But I've never heard of it happening to anybody up here...


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Those are just excuses to make your self feel better about running without insurance. But hey 8 years running an illegal business you never got caught so it must be ok right. Honestly I'm a licensed contractor and I turn in guys that are running illegal businesses to the contractors board all the time. Guys running illegally under the radar without insurance or a contractors license is the reason contractors are so Un trusted and our insurance premiums are so high. You also artificially drive down the cost for everyone by undercutting everyone because you aren't paying the overhead that we are. I wouldn't be so ticked off if HadiCoop wast acting so casual about it like no big deal. It's a huge deal. No more advice from me until you go legit. Rant over.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Sue happy or not, worst advise ever. To me your not legitimate without it. I can't even be licensed without it. It's your business, but don't say we didn't warn you.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> Those are just excuses to make your self feel better about running without insurance. But hey 8 years running an illegal business you never got caught so it must be ok right. Honestly I'm a licensed contractor and I turn in guys that are running illegal businesses to the contractors board all the time. Guys running illegally under the radar without insurance or a contractors license is the reason contractors are so Un trusted and our insurance premiums are so high. You also artificially drive down the cost for everyone by undercutting everyone because you aren't paying the overhead that we are. I wouldn't be so ticked off if HadiCoop wast acting so casual about it like no big deal. It's a huge deal. No more advice from me until you go legit. Rant over.


You'll get over it...So do you do everything by the book?


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> Sue happy or not, worst advise ever. To me your not legitimate without it. I can't even be licensed without it. It's your business, but don't say we didn't warn you.


What's the worst advice ever?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Yes I'm a licensed contractor. I can't afford to do anything not by the book. I take the minimum code and go above and beyond on every project. If a client askes me to something against the book I politely inform them that I will be unable to help them with their project because I refuse to compromise my standards and my reputation for being one of the best in my area. It's that simple.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

HadiCoop said:


> So do you do everything by the book?


 Really , that is what you're going to hang your hat on?

Some may speed, be a few lbs over weight, pocket the cash on an ocasion , mostely petty stuff.
Not having the proper INS, LIC, paying taxes , makes you well a ............
Just Say'en

your messing with your present and fruture and for thoes you may injure all for a quick buck.
You can loose your home , have wage & tax garnishments etc etc for the rest of your life,Maybe you get luckey
But time isn't on your side.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

HadiCoop said:


> What's the worst advice ever?


Yours. And yes, as a company I do it legally. When I worked full time and did side jobs for a little cash, I wasn't. When I went on my own and started a company it went legal. I had to get a licence and get proof of insurance. I also pay taxes and get permits for my work when I need it. It's these things that make you a legitimate company, not just registering a name.

Everyone has an opinion, this is mine. Take it or not, it's your business. I don't want to kill this thread.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

right on, that's good to hear! But the guy is trying to do the right thing, so cut him a bit of slack eh...


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> Yours. And yes, as a company I do it legally. When I worked full time and did side jobs for a little cash, I wasn't. When I went on my own and started a company it went legal. I had to get a licence and get proof of insurance. I also pay taxes and get permits for my work when I need it. It's these things that make you a legitimate company, not just registering a name.
> 
> Everyone has an opinion, this is mine. Take it or not, it's your business. I don't want to kill this thread.


Oh i guess by saying that I've never heard of anybody getting sued is giving advice?...wrong. Learn to read bud


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> Yours. And yes, as a company I do it legally. When I worked full time and did side jobs for a little cash, I wasn't. When I went on my own and started a company it went legal. I had to get a licence and get proof of insurance. I also pay taxes and get permits for my work when I need it. It's these things that make you a legitimate company, not just registering a name.
> 
> Everyone has an opinion, this is mine. Take it or not, it's your business. I don't want to kill this thread.


 When I was full time, I did the same thing as you. Like I said earlier in the thread...I went legit about 2 months ago. I pay taxes, commercial insurance, I'm licensed etc....


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

SnoFarmer said:


> Really , that is what you're going to hang your hat on?
> 
> Some may speed, be a few lbs over weight, pocket the cash on an ocasion , mostely petty stuff.
> Not having the proper INS, LIC, paying taxes , makes you well a ............
> ...


Ya, just sayin..


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

This thread is going to get shut down. Let's let the OP get to keep this open so he can get more questions answered if he has them.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

Well let's keep the grilling to a minimum. As far as I'm concerned, there's been no bad advice given here. I never once said it was ok to run illegally. Just simply stated lots of guys do it and I've never heard of anybody getting nailed for it....he knows what he's gotta do.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Boys Boys let's just calm it down !

I like the passion though.

I am not operating illegally, I am registered, pay taxes, and do all things accordingly by the book. When I said 8 years I was reffering to weekend lawn cuts for friends and family cash. I was a personal training full time for Goodlife health clubs.

I will get insurance before winter begins.

I use quickbooks for all of my accounting.

Granted I'm a small one man operation, I feel I am within my guidelines as per a professional landscaping maintenance company.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Is it illegal to operate a business without insurance?

Service Canada nor the CRA nor my account have brought this issue up with me,


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

You can check me out on instagram : @warriorlandscaping
or warriorlandscaping.ca

Thank you all for your input in tonight's conversation.

You guys are really helping me scale a business plan for the upcoming winter season,

Goodnight !


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Is it illegal to operate a business without insurance?
> 
> Service Canada nor the CRA nor my account have brought this issue up with me,


Yes you need it.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Is it illegal to operate a business without insurance?
> 
> Service Canada nor the CRA nor my account have brought this issue up with me,


 Illegal, no, you could have enough $$$ to be self insured.

a competent businessman would have the proper level of insurance to off set their liability exposure.

but then I'm in the states.

I just dont see this model working on drives or lots.
the only niche. i see it working is for city sidewalks, and then your going to need something bigger than a walk-behind, and a variety of attachments for the varying snow conditions..

trailer'ing equipment around in a snow storm is time consuming.

good luck.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

You have to factor you business expenses in your prices. It costs you $x to operate for the season, no matter how big or small your overhead is. Everywhere will be different, but here is what I do.

It costs me x per winter. To operate I have to pay (rolling overhead and job costs into one) my salary, insurance, payroll and other relating expenses, repair costs, new equipment, etc. That is my x. Here with my sidewalks I go out an average of 11-15 times a season. X÷how many times I go out = y. Y÷how many hours I can do a route before it's too long (maybe 6-8, some will say more)= z. Z is what I have to bring in an hour for the winter to break even. Then add your markup, and finally your profit. Our winters here are all over the place, so that is where experience helps with figuring out numbers. It's hard to really get exactly what you need to charge when relying on mother nature, but that's a start.

Snow removal is a premium service for residential and not really a choice for commercial, so make sure you profit from it. Like I said earlier, efficiency is how you make more money doing snow removal. If you can't make money with how you're doing it because of your market you'll have to figure out ways to be more efficient. Don't cut costs like insurance to save money. Don't forget too, you're insurance will be for all year. Don't see $4k (hopefully you can get something cheaper) and assume you have to make all that up with snow.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Thanks for the reply JHM, you're always helpful !


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Rate my rates:

Hey guys, would you be able to give me some feedback, I am in my initial stages of sending out preliminary estimates to my lawn - care clients.

Most of them typically have 1 - 2 and 3 - 4 car driveways.

Okay so this is my " estimate clause" as I am not designing a contract just yet. All my customers are very good, never had an issue with payment.

Estimate clause : Winter

By accepting this estimate you are agreeing to the following terms with Warrior Landscaping,

1. The work and services listed and described above are the only work and services that will be carried out. Any additional work requested by you the homeowner will be charged to you the home owner accordingly by Warrior Landscaping. No exceptions.

2. If paying monthly for snow removal services payment is to be made on the first of every month via e-transfer, cash or cheque for the full amount agreed upon. 

3. If paying per snow removal, an invoice will be sent for the total amount due, payment is to be made no later than 7 days after invoice date or late charges will apply.

4. "Per-push" service is charged via the accumulation of snow-fall, measurement is to be taken with tape measure on each visit. If several visits are made in one day, accumulation totals will be added and charged accordingly. All prices are subjected to HST.


Rates:

Per push:

* Trigger :
3 cm
3 - 10 cm = 40$
10 - 20 cm = 50$
20 - 30 cm = 60$
30 cm + = 70$

Seasonal:

2 car driveway - 100$ per month, unlimited visit + deicing.
3 - 4 car driveway - 150$ per month, unlimited visits + deicing.

10% off is season paid for upfront.

I know it looks a bit pricey on the seasonal side but I feel like I'm worth it, I've build a solid lawn / garden care clientele.

What are your thoughts?

Sorry for the long post !


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Have you gotten any feedback yet on what a desired trigger in your area is? 3cm is just over an inch of snow. I would love to have a 1" trigger. Most my residential are a 4 inch trigger so that's 10cm trigger. You may get pushback on that but that may be normal for your area. If you do have a 1 inch trigger then the seasonal pricing seems way too low. It makes more sense if it's a 4 inch trigger. My area has been hit hard by low ballers the last couple years so pricing in my area is down this year. For me a single car drive is $40 a two car $75 and a 4 car is $125. But keep in mind it's a 4" trigger so having a 1" trigger at your lower price may work out for you because you will be there a lot more.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

if those numbers work for you then thats good. i personally think your a little low. i start at $500 per season for a 1 car driveway. dont give a discount for upfront payment for the season. theyll pay upfront if you state in your contract that is whats required. i was at a clients house house yesterday giving her a price on fall leaf cleanup and then she asked about snow removal. i gave her my price and she wrote me a cheque on the spot. if only they were all that easy...dont lower your prices just to get the work.

hey did you ever find out how much insurance for the year will be?


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

I've not sure what the trigger is here, maybe I should change it to 5 cm?


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Awesome Hadi, I'll keep that in mind. 

What trigger do you use?

Yes I actually got something better, 72$ per month !


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Is November considered the first month on call for the snow season? 

We are looking at +10 degrees next week !


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> I've not sure what the trigger is here, maybe I should change it to 5 cm?


Do market research first. Don't just change it because we said. You need to find out what is normal where you are.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Yes our contracts start nov 1st.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

if you break even, then theres no point in working. make sure your making money, otherwise you might as well sit in your basement and drink rum by the fire!


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Hadi do you tend to do all seasonal rates or do you have per push accounts as well,

Which trigger do you use?


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I do all seasonal, I'm sure I'll get the odd guy or gal here and there requesting it. But none as of yet. In my area most guys do a seasonal contract for residentials. It keeps things simple. My trigger is 2". (5cm)

Did you talk to Dan at broker link or find somebody else?
Does that include the Lawncare as well?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Your seasonal seems low to me. I would assume you'd get more than 2 storms a month? If you get a third you're loosing money compared to your per push. Just my two cents. I'm not sure about your snowfalls though.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

Everybody's area is different. Your cost of living is also different than mine. It works for me. Especially when a single car drive only takes 5mins to clear...


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

I'm using a blower and shovel mind you.

Just sent first estimate for 750$ whole season.

2 Car driveway, hope she lands !


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Do you guys always include walkways, sidewalks and steps on a resi estimate, or is that extra?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Do you guys always include walkways, sidewalks and steps on a resi estimate, or is that extra?


I do because they always want that anyway so my price reflects that. Hence $75 for a two car because the sidewalk, walk to the house, steps etc are included in that.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

ktfbgb, is that your hourly rate or flat rate for minimum trigger ?

75$


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Do you guys always include walkways, sidewalks and steps on a resi estimate, or is that extra?


It's all extra buddy, just incorporate into the price.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Got it,

Are blowers okay to go over stamped concrete driveways and such?

Everything but gravel I'm assuming ?


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

You can, but don't scratch it. Take off the tire chains if you have any on the tires...they can make a real mess of any driveway. I clear my dads rental building lot with a blower and its gravel. Just make sure your Shute is pointing away from any windows or cars. You'll pick up a few rocks here and there Forsure.

I got a call from a guy yesterday saying he wants me to use a shovel on a 4 car driveway because its concrete and the last guy scratched the crap out of it with his old blower. I told him it's not going to be cheap! And the metal shoes on your blower can also scratch the driveway...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

The single stage blowers will not scratch anything. The paddles are rubber and will not hurt anything. All the other parts that touch the concrete are plastic (and hard rubber wheels). With stamped concrete or stone paver I only use the single stage.

The 2 stage are beefier with more metal. Both mine have plastic shoes, one came with and the other I found on amazon. I set mine for about an 1/8", so the metal scraper edge doesn't scratch. If you're constantly "catching" on the concrete your shoes are too low (you'll understand that once it happens). If it's gravel just set them to leave about 1/2-1" above the grave.

I've never had a problem with either ever scratching a drive or walk, but play it safe as possible. Also use only plastic shovels on the expensive drives, they don't scratch like the metal can.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

HadiCoop said:


> You can, but don't scratch it. Take off the tire chains if you have any on the tires...they can make a real mess of any driveway. I clear my dads rental building lot with a blower and its gravel. Just make sure your Shute is pointing away from any windows or cars. You'll pick up a few rocks here and there Forsure.
> 
> I got a call from a guy yesterday saying he wants me to use a shovel on a 4 car driveway because its concrete and the last guy scratched the crap out of it with his old blower. I told him it's not going to be cheap! And the metal shoes on your blower can also scratch the driveway...


Unless you can get BIG $$$$ for that drive I'd avoid it like hell.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> Unless you can get BIG $$$$ for that drive I'd avoid it like hell.


He's not Gona like the price I'll tell ya that lol.


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## kawasaki guy (Nov 22, 2012)

I have had my 18" $300 TORO for 2 almost 3 years now without any issues. except a new axle. (somewhat my fault)


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

The homeowners are a friend of a friend, I took a look today, its a moderately sized driveway, 3 car, sidewalk, small side walkway, steps.

I took a look at my blower today and yes the paddles are rubber however the scraping blade at the bottom is super sharp and almost flush with the ground, would I need to adjust the height to avoid scratching their driveway?

Do you think my first year it would be wise to stick to ashphault driveways only?

I mean I'd like to get this contract, I think I will charge them 150$ per month + hst for everything including salting, supposedly they are well off. The lady I guess just likes me because she see's me at the gym !

What do you think guys ?


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I think you need to charge $150 for the driveway, steps, walkway etc. or whatever you want to charge and then charge extra for salt per application...
Maybe lower the shoes a bit just get the scraping edge off the ground, check periodically incase it drops again throughout the season!


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Hadi what kind of bags do you like to use for salt?

In your seasonal contracts are all of your clients billed extra for salt? 

Typically what would you charge a customer for salt application?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

What kind of blower do you have?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Don't get in the mindset of charging based on how much your client makes. You were talking about them being well off. The price is the price no matter what they make. If you start doing that you will run into trouble in my opinion. My rich clients drives cost more because they will have a 6 car garage, with a turn around by the front door and a 1000' long drive that winds through the trees. That's why it costs more not just because they have more money. Word travels as fast as wild fire be it good or bad. Rich people are connected. Take care of them charge them like anyone else and you will get referrals from them.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Hadi what kind of bags do you like to use for salt?
> 
> In your seasonal contracts are all of your clients billed extra for salt?
> 
> Typically what would you charge a customer for salt application?


There's a lot of different types of salt by the bag, it can get expensive by the bag though. I picked up an 80lb capacity bin for the back of the truck that I will fill with salt from my buddies landscape yard. And for the small commercials I buy 150 capacity bins and fill them up when needed and leave on site. Way cheaper! Even if you buy an 80lb capacity bin for the back of your truck and buy in bulk you'll save a lot more.

Yes, for the clients who want salt I give them a price per application and it is billed as an extra cost.

I just picked up a client today for $65 per app and $1500 for the season for a 4 car driveway, 2 small walkways and a set of stairs...5-6 steps for the snow.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-outdoor-tool...rs/1207001357?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

See if that link works, good guy to deal with. Great prices and not far from you. He's in acton area..


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

HadiCoop said:


> There's a lot of different types of salt by the bag, it can get expensive by the bag though. I picked up an 80lb capacity bin for the back of the truck that I will fill with salt from my buddies landscape yard. And for the small commercials I buy 150 capacity bins and fill them up when needed and leave on site. Way cheaper! Even if you buy an 80lb capacity bin for the back of your truck and buy in bulk you'll save a lot more.
> 
> Yes, for the clients who want salt I give them a price per application and it is billed as an extra cost.
> 
> I just picked up a client today for $65 per app and $1500 for the season for a 4 car driveway, 2 small walkways and a set of stairs...5-6 steps for the snow.


Maybe I am reading this wrong? 80lb bin is barely over a bag and a half? Do you have a bunch of them, or constantly fill it? That's gotta get old real fast! Each of my walk crews go through 15+ bags a storm.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

On second thought, I guess when I did drives with just me I only used I think 6 bags. I did an all or nothing type service, didn't want to mess with hassling them over if I should or shouldn't use ice melt. Everyone paid for everything, including ice melt.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

Sorry, I was thinking dollars. Small bins are 400lb capacity and large are 600lb...


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

ktf- Good advice, I will aim to remember that !
JHM - I have a new toro 721 powerclear commercial blower.
Hadi - I don't know If I'll go over the 10 driveway mark this season as it is my first, I was thinking just having the bags from Home Depot in the back of my truck and hand spreading when necessary?
I've read ammonium nitrate is better then rock-solt,
Do most people put a salting attachment on their truck ?

Thanks guys !


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Would a seed spreader theoretically work to spread ? Or will it eat that away lol.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Would a seed spreader theoretically work to spread ? Or will it eat that away lol.


A hand held seed spreader will work fine for small driveways. So does the grab a handful and toss out method. The seed spreader will last about a season but who cares they only cost $20.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Your sharp edge on the Toro is plastic, unless they've changed since mine. Won't hurt anything.
As long as your bags stay dry, any spreader will work, even the cheap ones. Depending on the sizes of drives I would either have a bucket and "chicken feed" it out with the back of your hand (thanks to Buff on that one, worked good), use a hand held spreader, or walk behind. No need to get one on your truck since you'll be out blowing the snow anyway.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

Chapin makes a good walkbehind..


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

HadiCoop said:


> Chapin makes a good walkbehind..


I got a steal of a deal on their blue one from a store that went out of business, but hadn't heard of the brand at the time. I wish I would have picked up the other 2 they had also. Only paid $40 or something.

I had to take my grate out to get it to work good. Have you every had a problem with that? It sits too low and jams up, but works flawlessly without it. They also have an all metal one that the grate is on top. Looks like a much better design.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Ice melt tip, don't get it in the grass. I don't care what the bag says, it will burn the grass. On walks or anything more narrow than your spreaders throwing distance, bungee cord a cheap tarp (ice melt will eat the tarp) around the spreader to prevent it from throwing in the grass. Basically turns your broadcast spreader into a drop spreader. Or buy one with deflectors, they're very handy.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

To tell you truth, I haven't even bought mine yet...but I know a good product when I see one. 

$40!? Ya you should've bought the other 2. I'm not sure yet if I'll spend the $400 on a commercial WB or $150 on the homeowner model...which one do you have?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/c...m97z5pmxm4mqaWGDI7pb5cqMFUDPjRg7shhoCdpHw_wcB

This one. I've seen them cheaper, but that was the first one on Google. The place I got mine didn't have many "professional" things, so I assumed it was junk. Went back 2 days later after looking it up and they were gone.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

Geeze! You got the commercial unit...good score. They are around the $400 mark up here...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I really like the deflectors. they're quick and easy. I have 3 other spreaders, 2 earthways, and some off brand that won't die. Earthway is good, but they're pretty rusty. The cheap $20 Scott's brand even work pretty good, but my guys destroy them after a storm slamming them around.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

Can you control the deflectors with a lever? Or is it by hand?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/c...-stainless-steel-hopper-spreader-p-15627.html

When you said commercial I thought you meant this one. They seem to have corrected every problem I've had with mine, but they're pricey. heavy too


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I


HadiCoop said:


> Can you control the deflectors with a lever? Or is it by hand?


It's by hand and all 3 are independent. You can have one down and 2 up, or whatever you need. It has a permanent one in the back so you don't get covered.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

Ya then there's the stainless steel..yours is still a professional unit though...and the one I've been looking at. I don't even want to know the cost in CAD dollars on the stainless...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I have had to replace hardware on it after some bolts fell out. You may want to have some extra on hand of you get one.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

JMHConstruction said:


> I have had to replace hardware on it after some bolts fell out. You may want to have some extra on hand of you get one.


I ended up going through and putting lock nuts on the whole thing.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

Good idea, I hate when you pay good money for something and then have to go out and spend more to make it right...but sometimes it's required.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

My Scotts spreader has edge-guard, That would come in Handy for sure.

I checked the bottom blade on the toro, it's actually very sharp metal.

Any tips?


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Thanks for the advice gents!


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

And I made a mistake the bottom of the toro is just sharp plastic, lol


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> And I made a mistake the bottom of the toro is just sharp plastic, lol


I was surprised they had gone to metal, but it sounds like they're the same. I replace mine pretty much the same time you replace paddles. I ordered as a set somewhere.


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## boutch (Aug 3, 2015)

Hi WarriorLandscapingCan! 

I'm surprise no one realy try to convince that it was a bad idea to do driveway with a 21 inches single stage blower. you need a good 28 or 30 inches 2 stages if you are stuck on snow blower. anything over 6 inches or heavy wet snow will take you for ever with that little blower. 

why not a good used 7.5 sport duty plow for your F150 or fisher ht, you can pick those up for about 3000$ in good shape and recoup most of your money when you are ready to upgrade to a 3/4 ton truck. It would be much easier since you are just starting and your more lilely you will be driving around over a wide area.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

Thing is, with a plow setup insurance companies want a ridiculous amount of money. I agree those single stage blowers aren't the best for heavy or deep snow. A 2 stage would be better forsure.


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## boutch (Aug 3, 2015)

HadiCoop said:


> Thing is, with a plow setup insurance companies want a ridiculous amount of money. I agree those single stage blowers aren't the best for heavy or deep snow. A 2 stage would be better forsure.


Im With Aviva and it was under 1000$ for plowing with my truck with 2 millions liability it about the same with the tractor.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I'd buy a policy at $1k too. But most in Ontario want $3-$4k...


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

HadiCoop said:


> I'd buy a policy at $1k too. But most in Ontario want $3-$4k...


That's Insane. To add commercial residential plowing and a slip and fall to my general liability only costs me like $700 a year.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I would suggest getting both blowers, but if he stays with the storm the single will be fine. You can literally run behind that single stage and it will keep up. We stay with the storm, and haven't used the 2 stages in 3 years. I built a set of wings last year for my 2 stage, but I didn't snow again so I didn't get to use it. I built it cheap and easy for my backup and if it works good (wings are up to 48" width) I'll build a metal or poly set for my good one. They just sit, so u figures maybe I can put them to use. As far as 1 vs 2 stage I can do a walk, drive, or whatever faster with a single stage than having to wait for the self propelled 2 stage, even with the couple extra inches.

If it's light snow, NOTHING will beat those wide shovels though. I did a neighbors last year (first time I've actually used it on a driveway) and what takes me 15-20 minutes with a 2 stage (deep snow though) took 6 minutes with the the snow plow shovel (only 3"). she's an older woman who asked if I'd clear her drive after hip surgery, her pumpkin bread was a fair trade lol.


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## HadiCoop (Aug 1, 2016)

I need to get one of those shovels...


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

is that what u kids are calling it theses days.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I will also suggest getting one of the shovels with wheels. I picked one up last year, for myself (the guys will break it, so they get the regular onesThumbs Up) and it worked great. in reality it does the same thing, but for some reason i really liked just walking behind and it already being angled. I was much faster than my guys, but they're also hourly and I'm not. Might have had something to do with it.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> I will also suggest getting one of the shovels with wheels. I picked one up last year, for myself (the guys will break it, so they get the regular onesThumbs Up) and it worked great. in reality it does the same thing, but for some reason i really liked just walking behind and it already being angled. I was much faster than my guys, but they're also hourly and I'm not. Might have had something to do with it.


Or jealousy.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ktfbgb said:


> Or jealousy.


Or incompetence. (I didn't say that)


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

SnoFarmer said:


> is that what u kids are calling it theses days.


Hey Sno, don't take the excitement out of our shovel talk:laughing:


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> Or incompetence. (I didn't say that)


I hear that.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

On the plus side most are not coming back this year, so I get the see what my new batch will be like. And I have a plow this year, so my now supervisor gets to run the show and I only have to deal with phone calls and *****ing at people when I show up unannounced. :dancing:

Sorry guys, getting of topic. I'll do better to stay focused.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Hey boys!

Just read all these messages.

I picked the single stage so I didn't have to get ramps, its super light and I can literally toss it in and out of my truck. I also read a lot of good reviews on it.
I'm in great shape as well so I don't fear a good shoveling, I take care of my body and 13 years of landscaping has given me that old man strength at a young age ! haha

Only experience will tell how I fare with a single stage, I can always go and buy 2, I have a friend who will start working with me.

I ordered the snowplow shovels JHM ! They should arrive shortly.

My insurance is 2,000,000 liability at 70$ a month, thanks to Hadi for smacking some sense into me as the original quote was 4500$ for the year from my first company ! what a rip.

As of now I have 3 driveways for the whole season paid up front, have 3 estimates this week and I'm still working on my large landscaping project ( It's an 8,000$ job, I'll post pics maybe )

Enjoy the day boys!


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Not to be a buzz kill........ @ $2k for G/l and 3 driveways with hopes for more aren't you going to be underwater?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

BUFF said:


> Not to be a buzz kill........ @ $2k for G/l and 3 driveways with hopes for more aren't you going to be underwater?


He's got $2m. he's paying $800 something a year. But you're still right.

Does your GL cover your landscaping also? Need to start hustling to get more jobs, or become a sub or Buff is right, you won't make it long. Gotta start somewhere though.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

JMHConstruction said:


> He's got $2m. he's paying $800 something a year. But you're still right.
> 
> Does your GL cover your landscaping also? Need to start hustling to get more jobs, or become a sub or Buff is right, you won't make it long. Gotta start somewhere though.


D'oh....... hosed up that one.......


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Hey boys!
> 
> I picked the single stage so I didn't have to get ramps, its super light and I can literally toss it in and out of my truck. I also read a lot of good reviews on it.
> I'm in great shape as well so I don't fear a good shoveling, I take care of my body and 13 years of landscaping has given me that old man strength at a young age ! haha
> ...


A single stage is fine. It sounds like you bought a Toro 721, I've done 18" snowfalls with that, its a little slower but it will work fine.

Here's some information from a guy who is 100km from you, and started his snow removal 4 years ago.

- A single stage Toro will clear a driveway in 3-5 minutes max. If you want to do the shoveling around cars and the porch/steps you are looking at 8-10 minutes max.

- Get a flat blade metal shovel for the windrows from the city plow: If you get a bad windrow just shave off 6" at a time with the shovel, then point the chute FORWARD (rather than 90') and throw the stuff you chopped up. It should still only take 5-10 minutes to do a HUGE snowplow curtain from the city.

- Those Toro Paddles will last about 200 driveway clears, then replace them. Replace the scrapper bar at the same time. When you start noticing snow being thrown back at you from underneath, or escaping out the sides, its time for new paddles.

- Take the entire axel off to change the paddles.

- KIJIJI is a godsend for helpers. You can have a shovellers in minutes and cut your clearing time in half on those heavy nights.

- Don't worry about a truck plow. Until you are over 50 clients, and even then it's debatable.

- Beware of small commercial places, like triplexs or student rental companies, these tiny "corps" love to take advantage of small companies and forget to pay their last invoice or two. If it's not the home-owner, Always get pre-paid, especially for per-visit pricing.

That's all I can think of:

Our progression:
Year one: 8 clients (leftover lawn clients)
Year two: 35 clients (One truck, 2 blowers, 1 helper, about 6-7 hour clear time)
Year three: 65 clients (two trucks, 4 blowers, 4 staff)
Year four: (80ish) clients (1 plow truck, 1 reg. truck, 4x single stage, 1 2-stage, 3-4staff)

This year? WHO KNOWS!

P.S. BE CAREFUL WITH MONTHLY PRICING! You can do SEASONAL pricing, Paid monthly, otherwise people will call you on January 1st and sign up for two months. Or worse yet, they call you on January 12th, before the first heavy snowfall, and pay for 1.5 months... they pay for a month and a half, when you actually clear it 12-14 times.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Amazing responses guys.

Currently have 4 estimates for the weekend, Kijiji has been great to me, people email right away asking for estimates for the season.

Buzz / JHM : My insurances covers my landscaping as well. 72$ per month, great price.
I had a great lawn-care season, I cleared my debt and managed to land some high end clientele, this will help carry me over for the winter.

Seeing how it is my first year with snow removal the goal is too not jump to far ahead of myself and book out 15 - 20 driveway's off the bat - I rather start small and work my way up.

I think 10 - 15 driveways is a good start, my goal is to be at 15 around January.
My overhead isn't very high considering I am still at home, I move out next Spring. Being out of debt has been a big lift off my shoulders.
I have a friend who will help me this season, I am paying him well because I want him to understand and trust me and I want him to be reliable as he has been a reliable friend - but you never know !

I am in great shape and have completed large landscaping projects on my own, as I have been doing for the past 8 years. I did a home with 7 yards of 1 - 3 " riverock in 4 days last month, just me and my barrow, lol.

Unraveller : Thank you so much for that advice, that is great content. I would imagine my typical shift during a large storm ( 25 + cm ) would be beginning at 12 am, I'm fairly confident that even on my own I'd be able to knock of 10 - 15 driveway's close range in 8 hours. With a helper, maybe 4 hours.

Good point on the monthly pricing, I should specify; I offer the client a seasonal package, they either pay it for monthly, or all up - front, I won't sign anyone on monthly unless they pay on the first of each month. This ensures I am always paid for the month. I also am offering a Per - Push service which would seem to me to be the most likely to cause issues with a stubborn or dumb home-owner.

I have my 2 snowplow shovels that just came in, I'm ready to give her !

My Goal is to gross 10 - 15 k this winter, I made 35 k From April to November, 2nd year fully employed for myself, not bad for 28 years young !


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

Keep up the good work. To estimate your average Full clear time, figure the route length (in Google maps) and estimate 50 km/h. Then estimate 10 minutes per driveway, maybe 15 for heavy snowfalls. That should give you route time estimate. You're 8 hour estimate is very realistic, probably conservative. 

The rule of thumb I heard for lawn care, and I think it's great advice is this:. Once you have 30 hours of work a week, hire a helper. Never work more than 20-25 per week on sites, you should be spending at least 20 hrs per week growing the business. Calling, door knocking, handing out flyers, etc etc.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Awesome will keep that in mind,

In reference to the snow apron issue,

I'd imagine city plows typically hit the streets early morning to clear for work the next day, would it be wise to assume, if I hit a driveway at 6 am, they could potentially be snowed in with an apron after that?


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Awesome will keep that in mind,
> 
> In reference to the snow apron issue,
> 
> I'd imagine city plows typically hit the streets early morning to clear for work the next day, would it be wise to assume, if I hit a driveway at 6 am, they could potentially be snowed in with an apron after that?


You can't win with the city plow. Just ask customers to call and tell you, then tell them it will be the following evening.

Clear at 5am Tuesday, they call at noon saying city plow, you'll be there that even between 7pm and midnight.

We explicitly state we are NOT on the road from 7am -7pm, traffic is too slow during the day in a snow event.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I totally understand having a friend help you out. It's the easiest way get a helper, and you already trust that person. I will give you a warning now, hire an employee and get rid of your friend (in a nice way) as soon as you can. I've had more friends let me down when I first started it's not even funny. Because they're your friend, it's too hard to be their boss.

Your overhead should be things like your truck, blowers, maintenance, repairs, insurance, tool depreciation, your salary, etc. Then you will have job costs like fuel, any hourly payroll, ice melt, etc. Make sure you get enough work to cover that, plus try and make a little profit to reinvest in your business. Whether you live at home, in a box, or in a mansion, your personal bills are payed with your salary, not your business. It doesn't matter where you live.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Thanks JMH.

I got the snowplow shovels delivered yesterday by the way, they look awesome !

I got the 30" and the dominator.

What are some other tools I should always have with me in my truck?

I'm thinking push broom, square shovel for ice breaking, backpack blower, 3 snow shovels, etc..


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

If you have a metal grain scoop shovel, throw that in for the rock hard crap at the end of the drive from the plows. If you don't have one you can make what you have work. If you flip the plow shovel over it works great for scraping ice, and don't worry they're pretty indestructible. Bring a change of clothes, including boots and socks. Nothing worse than being out for hours in wet clothes. I would also get either a reflective jacket, or a few vests. Make sure people can see you. Bring tools and parts with you. A socket set, screw drivers, wrenches, that type of stuff. Plenty of gas and some extra oil for your blower. Bring lots of water and something to eat.

I'm sure I'll think of more, but that's a start.


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

JMHConstruction said:


> If you have a metal grain scoop shovel, throw that in for the rock hard crap at the end of the drive from the plows. If you don't have one you can make what you have work. If you flip the plow shovel over it works great for scraping ice, and don't worry they're pretty indestructible. Bring a change of clothes, including boots and socks. Nothing worse than being out for hours in wet clothes. I would also get either a reflective jacket, or a few vests. Make sure people can see you. Bring tools and parts with you. A socket set, screw drivers, wrenches, that type of stuff. Plenty of gas and some extra oil for your blower. Bring lots of water and something to eat.
> 
> I'm sure I'll think of more, but that's a start.


Great advice.

Specifically, practice how to take the Auger on/off of on the Toro. You'll find a dog leash or string of x-mas lights. The Drive belt might also job or shred, so buy a spare and keep it with you. Replace that is also very easy.

I'm not "handy" at all by most standards, but these are quick and easy jobs.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Which tools would I need to take Auger on / off?

How often do you think I will need to top up oil on my blower?

I run my mower all season and get 2 tune-ups per 8 months, seems to do fine. Never top up oil personally. 8 years running great.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Which tools would I need to take Auger on / off?
> 
> How often do you think I will need to top up oil on my blower?
> 
> I run my mower all season and get 2 tune-ups per 8 months, seems to do fine. Never top up oil personally. 8 years running great.


You shouldn't ever need to add any during a storm. You just want to be prepared for anything. With mowing, if you miss a day you can usually catch up through the week. With snow you don't have that. You have a short time span to complete the job and keep everyone happy. Granted residential seems to have a wider time window, you will still lose current customers and potential ones if things go wrong that you're not prepared for.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Got cha man


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Hey guys !

I am growing at a solid rate, I am forecasting ( pun intended ) I will be at around 12 driveway's by the end of this week. Currently at 7. 

Realistically speaking from your own experience,

1. How many driveway's could 2 strong young guys handle with 2 blowers and shovels in a night ? 

( I want to take on more clients but I've never done this before so I'm not sure if I should stay at 10 for example and get used to that for now )

2. Does getting clients get harder as the season goes on ?


3. Do you guys try to switch your body clocks over and sleep at a later time and wake up at later time considering snow removal is typically a night shift job ?
Right now I sleep at 11:30 pm and wake up a 7:30 am, but I feel like this will soon be my work schedule !

Thanks guys


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> Hey guys !
> 
> 1. How many driveway's could 2 strong young guys handle with 2 blowers and shovels in a night ?
> 
> ...


1. Average two man team can clear a driveway in 5 minutes or less (if they have blowers). So it's all about your drive time. My crews have about a 50km route, and can do about 8 driveways per hours driving that route. Use "speedy route" or something to figure out your km, assume 30km/h then add 5 minutes per driveway.

2. It gets easier up until mid January I'd say. Especially after the first snowfall. Always answer your phone. ALWAYS.

3. No. Sleep when you can. You'll be fine. Go to walmart and get caffiene pills and Ephedrine at GNC if you have an issue, Take 200mg caffiene, 24 mg ephedrine (3 caps), that'll give you 5-6 of high alert, no trouble working or driving.

Some people might give me **** about the drug advice, but it's 10x safer then falling asleep driving. Which is VERY easy to do in a nice warm truck.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

5min 

Or these are really smal drives.

Now you have 2 guys to pay, a truck, snowblowers, gas, insurance, workman's comp,
And you charge less than a guy and a plow.

Where is the profit?


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

I'm good without the ephedrine, I'm wired as is..lol

Okay thanks man, I'm just a bit anxious as my roster is growing and I haven't done this before !

I think I will cap it at 13 resi's to start. ( Currently at 9 )

2 guys with 2 blowers, I would estimate 10 - 15 mins, as I am not seasoned at this just yet. All my houses are within 15 km of each other. Most are 8 - 10 km, some are right next to each other ! 

I have told my clients if its a larger storm ( 20 + cm ) I will clear before AM work schedule, ( before 8 am or whatever time requested )

If it's something smaller, I will clear after AM rush so I can clear whole driveway without any cars on it after plow has done its job on the streets.

My trigger is 5 cm. ( I know this contradicts above statement )

Does a trigger usually mean, as soon as 5 cm falls you automatically begin, or does it mean, if minimum 5 cm falls you will service.

Does this make sense?

I am still iffy about running snowblowers at 3 or 4 am, but If its a mega storm You have to do what you have to do !


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## areoseek (Mar 13, 2013)

you'll get over the snowblower at 3am thing. If someone complains, I just tell them to come shovel it for me.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Usually a trigger is what you remove the snow at.

Say my triggers is 2" (roughly 5cm). Once 2" is on the ground you're plowing, then plowing every 2" after that. Now you can't always do it at exactly 2" every time, but you get the idea. You also have to consider what they're predicting. If they've predicted 3" you might as well wait until all 3" have fallen or you'll have some unhappy customers.


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

SnoFarmer said:


> 5min
> 
> Or these are really smal drives.
> 
> ...


No they're pretty standard 4-6 car driveways. Those Toro 721's are REALLY fast, it just doesn't take long at all with two guys.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

WarriorLandscapingCan said:


> I'm good without the ephedrine, I'm wired as is..lol
> 
> Okay thanks man, I'm just a bit anxious as my roster is growing and I haven't done this before !
> 
> ...


The trigger thing depends on what you told the client and how the contract is worded. On commercial removal it is standard practice that if you have a 2" inch trigger then you plow every 2". That is why I limit my route to 5-6 hours. That way in a storm by the time you finish the last client on the route then usually there is enough snow accumulated to start over at the beginning again. This continues until the storm is done.

That being said residential is a different animal. The commercial needs the snow removed all the time to keep customers safe and avoid liability. This is not the case with residential plowing. All my residential customers understand that once the trigger is reached it will cause an automatic plowing at their residence once the storm is over. The exception being in a big storm say over a foot of snow we will attempt to do it a couple times to make it easier on equipment and personnel. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't depending on how busy it is and where they are in relation to the commercial customers. It works for me and they understand the terms ahead of time. So the answer to the question is what did you tell them your level of service would be. Whatever you told them in the contract is what you need to do.


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## WarriorLandscapingCan (Sep 22, 2016)

Got it bro's thank you !

I'm excited for my first snow-fall, just want to get my first run over with !

Buying second Toro 721 this week, have someone working for me, so we should be able to some damage with 2 guys and 2 toro's.

I'm getting cabin fever need to get to work already been off for 2 weeks ! The gym is getting boring.

The way I referred to it in our agreements is that 5 cm "trigger" means I provide a service if the minimum snowfall is 5 cm, that's my "dispatch" accumulation, we then discuss a general time for services to be done at and yadda yadda yadda


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

That's how I did it. I'm sure not too many people want to pay for you to be out every 5cm like the commercial places do. Just make sure to keep everyone happy and you'll be fine. It will be easier than you think. When you get everything in order and plan your route drive through it and time your self. Double your drive time, because with the snow everything moves slower. Add 20 minutes per house and that will give you an idea on time. You'll probably be half that, but it will give you a safe number to assume. You'll learn a ton once you finally get the first real storm. Make sure you have a back up vehicle you can use (maybe even just get the number from a rental place) if something goes wrong. Also it wouldn't hurt to have a guy that you can call to help out if your helper gets sick. Remember to put money back into your business, you always want money saved if something happens. Good luck.


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

30 houses in 6-8 hours for two guys with power clears. 2-6 car driveways all within an 8km radius.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Kildonan, how did things work out for you last year?


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

JMHConstruction said:


> Kildonan, how did things work out for you last year?


Things went great. Doubled in size this year. Bought a second truck, running two crews and growing at a steady rate.


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

KildonanSnowRem said:


> Things went great. Doubled in size this year. Bought a second truck, running two crews and growing at a steady rate.


Also changed the company name.


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

KildonanSnowRem said:


> Also changed the company name.


If you double again, time to look at a tractor... That's a dense route!


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

Unraveller said:


> If you double again, time to look at a tractor... That's a dense route!


Been thinking about it a lot actually. I haven't seen a single other person here doing resi's with a tractor. Maybe I'll be the first. Honestly, I think about a tractor multiple times a week now.


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

KildonanSnowRem said:


> Been thinking about it a lot actually. I haven't seen a single other person here doing resi's with a tractor. Maybe I'll be the first. Honestly, I think about a tractor multiple times a week now.


Well, when you've got two days to kill, read the thread in Heavy Equipment, lol.


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

Unraveller said:


> Well, when you've got two days to kill, read the thread in Heavy Equipment, lol.


Which thread? I've probably read it already but I'll check it out again.


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

KildonanSnowRem said:


> Which thread? I've probably read it already but I'll check it out again.


http://www.plowsite.com/threads/switching-to-blowing-service.110685/


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

KildonanSnowRem said:


> Been thinking about it a lot actually. I haven't seen a single other person here doing resi's with a tractor. Maybe I'll be the first. Honestly, I think about a tractor multiple times a week now.


Tons of PS members with tractor blowers, Front mount, rear mount, Inverted.


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

FredG said:


> Tons of PS members with tractor blowers, Front mount, rear mount, Inverted.


'Here' as in my local city. I'm 16 pages into the thread the other person mentioned and there is a ton of valuable info on PS regarding tractors.


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