# Dump Truck....



## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

Looking into adding a dump to my setup and trying to figure out what manufacturer I should go with. I'm a Ford guy already, so the F650 or F750 would be the sizes I'd want to go with.
I have experience with the F650.... I've used one with a Cat engine, and one with the Cummins engine, and by far the Cummins was much better performing. So this leads me to my next question..... Are all Cat engines worthless?
By no means am I tied to the Ford. I've also been eyeballing Freightliner FL70 size and International 4200......
But I have no experience with either. The majority of Freightliner's I see are equipped with Cat engines. Freightliner's with a Cummins is hard to come by.. (I'm thinking there's a reason for that...)
The only experience I have with Navistar is what they put under Ford hoods..... (and I can't say I'm thrilled with everything they do....)


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## ad8 PRODIGY (Feb 7, 2012)

I often have wondered the same thing. However I do know that CAT has been getting out of the engine business. They are done with trying to make good engines with all this emisions crap from the gooberment. They are done.


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## StuveCorp (Dec 20, 2005)

I think the problem was the Cat's you used were turned down too much. I have the 3116 but it is the high torque and it has all the power in the world. If you do buy a truck with a Cat in it do not buy it with around 300,000 miles unless it has been rebuilt as it is spendy. I also think it's good on fuel compared to the 550 size.

Look at Internationals with the Dt466, cheap to fix but not super powerful.


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

We have a ford 650 with juice brakes 26k gvw. I would not suggest a dt 466 in an international very hit or miss it seems a couple of our subs have had them and they were very dissapointed. Alot of 650-750s running around here. Also look into the mitsu fuso 26k trucks theyre good running motors.


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## tailboardtech (Feb 28, 2010)

ad8 PRODIGY;1452913 said:


> I often have wondered the same thing. However I do know that CAT has been getting out of the engine business. They are done with trying to make good engines with all this emisions crap from the gooberment. They are done.


the new navistar maxxforce engines are a joint venture between cat and navistar (international) i was even told a couple months ago the maxxforce 13 engines have the cat logo on the block


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## ad8 PRODIGY (Feb 7, 2012)

tailboardtech;1453390 said:


> the new navistar maxxforce engines are a joint venture between cat and navistar (international) i was even told a couple months ago the maxxforce 13 engines have the cat logo on the block


Huh, go figure. Thanks!


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

tailboardtech;1453390 said:


> the new navistar maxxforce engines are a joint venture between cat and navistar (international) i was even told a couple months ago the maxxforce 13 engines have the cat logo on the block


Yeah, I think Navistar and Cat put Cat's new on-highway truck together...... Funny how Cat gets out of over-the-road engines then releases a on-highway truck.


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

What about Hino trucks? Are they even worth looking at?


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

The smaller cat motors are garbage. If I go with another cat motor, it won't be any smaller than a C15. But the f650 and 750 trucks are way under powered and really don't hold their value well. I would really lean towards a cummins motor. 

Cat is getting out of the motor race because they are only making motors for their own trucks. The new Cat truck line will have their motors and transmissions in them.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

The problem with the small Cat engines is only that they sometimes aren't spec'd right to the chassis and/or the type of body used.If you put any low HP motor in too heavy a truck, you're asking for trouble with longevity.Clean oil is also paramount in a kitty cat because of the HEIU system.I have friends with the 3126 and the newer C7 engines with 300K miles and are still going strong.My 250 HP 3126 runs like a raped ape.


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

Both of my 3126 motors are dogs and have lots of problems


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## mustangman02232 (Mar 21, 2011)

kwhopper T300 or 330 petermobile, with a CAT motor and an allison

maxxforce 13/15 motors are CAT c13/15 short blocks with international top ends


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

Yes. Both the c13 and c15 are sleeved blocks. My 3126's are not. So now they need rebuilding and I can't so it. So I have to buy a new motor. That's onea of many reasons why they suck


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Is it really cheaper to buy a new motor vs rebuilding the one you have? I'm asking because I don't know. I would think a rebuild would be cheaper but from the sounds of it you've been down this road already. BTW, thanks for that bit of info. There sure seems to be a lot of those 3126 motors out there. I swear every single axle dump I look at has a cat 3126 or a 3116(?) in it. Or is it a 3112?? I can't remember offhand....too many numbers.


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

The 3126, 3116 and C7 motors are a sleeve less block liner. I would have to have the block machined out which is stupid expensive. So in other words, it can't be rebuilt. So I need to buy a new one. Also, the HEIU valve system sucks. Oil that is the least bit dirty makes the motor run like crap. I have to religiously change mine every 3000-4000 miles. If not, mine barely runs. Just an FYI
for ya.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Good deal. That's handy to know. What's a good mileage to figure on when one of those is due for a rebuild? We are currently looking for a dump truck and like I said before, I'm finding a lot of them with the cat motors. I really don't want to buy a truck and then turn around and buy a motor. Anything else I should be looking for feel free to let me know if you don't mind. Thanks again


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

What type of trans? I have manual Eaton Fuller 8LL in mine. I've had trucks with the standard six speeds and they suck. No power. My one motor that I have to replace just went over 200,000 miles. The Cat dealer here in Chicago said they don't see them go over 10,000 hours to often with out a major problem.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Yeah I'd much rather have the 8LL over anything else, especially a Rockwell. Those things don't even go into gear half of the time when you're stopped let alone going down the road. The 8LL has to be the easiest to drive out of all of them in my opinion. 200,000 miles huh? That's not really much for a heavy truck all things considered. I would've thought you'd get more out of a cat motor than that.


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

Not the 3126. I do have decent hours on them, but still not being able to rebuild them is frustrating.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Ok I guess ill be shopping for the 3126 by the sounds of it. I appreciate the info. Thanks again!


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

You will? I'm hoping you just wrote that wrong? I've been saying to stay away from the smaller cat motors like the 3126. Buy a commins.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

I should have clarified that last post. I meant if I buy a truck with a cat motor the 3126 would be the one I would go with based on the info you gave me. I do really like the Cummins motors though. Lots of power and they seems to last a long time with little upkeep costs.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

I do believe all the 200-300 HP diesels in the medium duty class are dry sleeved engines which make them basically no different than a gas motor meaning they all can be bored for a true round cylinder and rebuilt as needed.If the 3126 and the C7 were such bad motors, my local Cat dealer, HO Penn wouldn't have them in ALL their Ford F-650 service trucks.


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## srl28 (Jan 2, 2006)

Whats your opinion on the 5.9 cummins that they had in the recent years of the f650 adn f750? Looked/looking at a 2007 f750 12ft dump with the 5.9 in it. Wondering if its underpowered and too light of an engine.


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## turn54 (Jan 7, 2010)

SullivanSeptic;1457832 said:


> Not the 3126. I do have decent hours on them, but still not being able to rebuild them is frustrating.


What part of the motor are they saying is "wearing out"? Or what problem are you having? Most CAT diesel motors I have helped rebuild including the 3126 did not need re-sleeved just cylinders honed, new rings, heads redone, and new bearings/wear parts replaced.


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## mustangman02232 (Mar 21, 2011)

peteo1;1457755 said:


> Yeah I'd much rather have the 8LL over anything else, especially a Rockwell. Those things don't even go into gear half of the time when you're stopped let alone going down the road. The 8LL has to be the easiest to drive out of all of them in my opinion. 200,000 miles huh? That's not really much for a heavy truck all things considered. I would've thought you'd get more out of a cat motor than that.


18 speed or bust, 200k out of a cat? The truck in my sig must of missed the memo as she is close to 800k without anything other then a pm. I know of several others with over 500k that have had zero issues. I would take a Detroit over a cummins, I'm really just not impressed with any of their motors (to bad ford couldn't of teamed up with them for a lite duty pickup motor)

Op Wat do u really want out of a truck? My friend just got a 99 t800 ten wheeler 435 cat 15 speed 46 rears etc for 16k and baught a body for 5k, and spent probably another 5k on misc stuff and we did the build ourselves except for welding. the most over worked truck is a single axle so how about giving some back ground to decide wats best


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

mustangman02232;1458311 said:


> 18 speed or bust, 200k out of a cat? The truck in my sig must of missed the memo as she is close to 800k without anything other then a pm. I know of several others with over 500k that have had zero issues. I would take a Detroit over a cummins, I'm really just not impressed with any of their motors (to bad ford couldn't of teamed up with them for a lite duty pickup motor)
> 
> Op Wat do u really want out of a truck? My friend just got a 99 t800 ten wheeler 435 cat 15 speed 46 rears etc for 16k and baught a body for 5k, and spent probably another 5k on misc stuff and we did the build ourselves except for welding. the most over worked truck is a single axle so how about giving some back ground to decide wats best


This thread is about the low HP Cat motors--3116,3126, and the C7,not engines like you have in a class 8 truck/trailer.


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

tuney443;1458888 said:


> This thread is about the low HP Cat motors--3116,3126, and the C7,not engines like you have in a class 8 truck/trailer.


Not just CAT engines, but the best configuration for a 33K dump..... Ford, International, Freightliner, CAT, Cummins, Mercedes, ext.......

How we got to class 8 engines is beyond me.....


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Great thread by the way Mid-Ohio. Didn't mean to hijack your thread either, just have a lot of questions as well and figured this would be the right place to ask. Sorry if I offended.


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

peteo1;1459408 said:


> Great thread by the way Mid-Ohio. Didn't mean to hijack your thread either, just have a lot of questions as well and figured this would be the right place to ask. Sorry if I offended.


No worries man, no offense taken. Just saying class 8 truck info isn't helping my cause.


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## Rat_Power_78 (Sep 16, 2008)

We run an older (1998) F800 with the 5.9 Cummins and a 5 speed and have worked the crap out of it for years. With a GVW of 24,500 and a 16 foot box it is very often overloaded. The Cummins handles it, but it would be nice to have a few more gears. As stated before, what you are planning to do with it dictates what the best setup is for you. You said you are looking for 33k GVW so dont forget that puts you in CDL territory. Will you be hiring drivers or are you the only one that will be driving it? How big of a box do you plan to run? What are you hauling? What sort of work do you do? For a landscape company like us who do a lot of hardscape work, a truck this size is constantly overloaded. In my experience, the more you overload a truck the more parts that break and the more often it is down for repairs. A little more background from you will greatly help get the right answers.


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

Rat_Power_78;1459631 said:


> We run an older (1998) F800 with the 5.9 Cummins and a 5 speed and have worked the crap out of it for years. With a GVW of 24,500 and a 16 foot box it is very often overloaded. The Cummins handles it, but it would be nice to have a few more gears. As stated before, what you are planning to do with it dictates what the best setup is for you. You said you are looking for 33k GVW so dont forget that puts you in CDL territory. Will you be hiring drivers or are you the only one that will be driving it? How big of a box do you plan to run? What are you hauling? What sort of work do you do? For a landscape company like us who do a lot of hardscape work, a truck this size is constantly overloaded. In my experience, the more you overload a truck the more parts that break and the more often it is down for repairs. A little more background from you will greatly help get the right answers.


Like you we do mostly if not all hardscape during the scaping season, so lots of gravel and soil..... With that said, I want to be able to use this during the winter also for a little plowing but mostly salting. I understand about the CDL, that's not a problem. We overload what we have once in a while also, no stranger to that! Which is why I'm looking for a stout truck in the 33K range that can handle some weight and be somewhat small enough to maneuver for tight spaces we often find ourselves in scaping residential and salting in the winter.


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## Rat_Power_78 (Sep 16, 2008)

Do you ever need to haul pallets of block, etc? The length is a plus for that if you do. With a 198" wheelbase, its not the most maneuverable but I have spent enough time in it and am used to it enough that I can squeeze it in some tight places. 

Having spent time in both our F800 and an FL70, I sure liked the inside of the Freightshaker more. Much more room for my long legs and more headroom as well. Of course if you are vertically challenged, disregard the previous statement.

Have you considered something like an L8000 Ford? You can find them fairly cheap, sometimes with a salter already. Most of them I see as a single axle are pretty short as well, helping you in the maneuverability area. 

I think you are definitely going the right direction by looking at 33k trucks instead of staying under CDL. One thought though, are you sure you want to stay with single axle? Any reason not to step up to a tandem? I know you said you would like to keep in maneuverable, but that is a pretty broad term... If you are looking to be able to haul some materials, tandem will haul a lot more while using the same about the same amount of fuel. If you are doing very many bigger jobs, it is way worth it unless you really need to fit it in some tight spots in the winter. IMO, the perfect truck for general landscape/hardscape (I dont count mowing/maintenance as landscaping) work would be a tandem axle truck with a 16' contractor body. Add some taller boards (I'm used to 2x6s) and you have the ultimate in versatility.


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## HEStufrthnnails (Nov 20, 2009)

I really like my International 4900. I picked up an ODOT truck with DT466(210hp),Allison auto(5spd),4:56 single rear,and 31,000GVW. I'm really happy with this truck. I plow some apartment units even with this truck. It's short and has a good turn radius. If I can keep it off the highway it gets better fuel eco. than my gasser pick-up . Nice thing is you can find them just about everywhere, and pretty reasonable as well.


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

Rat_Power_78;1460167 said:


> Do you ever need to haul pallets of block, etc? The length is a plus for that if you do. With a 198" wheelbase, its not the most maneuverable but I have spent enough time in it and am used to it enough that I can squeeze it in some tight places.
> 
> Having spent time in both our F800 and an FL70, I sure liked the inside of the Freightshaker more. Much more room for my long legs and more headroom as well. Of course if you are vertically challenged, disregard the previous statement.
> 
> ...


I really like what you've got to say here. But I definitely want to keep it in the single axle 33K. For the amount of volume as I like to do, I like to get most all material (block & pavers) delivered by my supplier. This truck would be for gravel, soil, and salt. 
The only thing I'm hung up on is what the right truck/engine combo is the best.......


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

A cumins or detroit diesel with an 8LL is ideal. If not, then a DT466 because parts are cheap and available anywhere


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## Rat_Power_78 (Sep 16, 2008)

SullivanSeptic;1460677 said:


> A cumins or detroit diesel with an 8LL is ideal. If not, then a DT466 because parts are cheap and available anywhere


Yup what he said. So just to recap, you want 33k GVW, relatively short and maneuverable, a good, reliable combination, and the ability to plow and maybe salt in the winter. To me, all of this points to an ex-municipal truck. Im not sure how available they are in your area, but here they can be had for relatively cheap and are already set up for you. Not having the added expense of adding a plow and spreader will save considerable money, not to mention hassles. If you arent in a big hurry to get one you can take your time and find just exactly what you want. Around here the common ones are Ford L8000s. They seem to commonly have 3208 Cats which arent great but you can find them with a Cummins. Auto or manual is up to you but I personally dislike autos in every situation. Craigslist or truckpaper seem to be the easiest place to find these trucks or you could look for government auctions in your area.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

We just added a '94 L8000 with an 8.3 Cummins and 6 speed trans. 33K GVW.

This is a nice little unit for the money - key is to find one that hasn't been out in the salt too much, as the steel cabs don't last. It turns well, rides decent, and will fill a void in our fleet. Biggest advantage I can see with this older truck - everything is so simple on it, and should be easy to fix.

I'd post pics, but they're already up over here:

http://www.plowsite.com/showpost.php?p=1453056&postcount=32089


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

SullivanSeptic;1460677 said:


> A cumins or detroit diesel with an 8LL is ideal. If not, then a DT466 because parts are cheap and available anywhere


I've never seen a 8LL in a smaller single axle.. While I love em for big trucks, an auto or 7 speed would be better suited in a small truck.

Price wise, around the midwest it's hard to beat old muni trucks. Since they are almost always set up with central, plow and salter; you can't build out something for the money.
Most are autos, cummins 8.3 or Cats. Usually so low on miles, they rust before the motor is shot.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

That's a nice s/a. How many miles are on it?


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## mustangman02232 (Mar 21, 2011)

tuney443;1458888 said:


> This thread is about the low HP Cat motors--3116,3126, and the C7,not engines like you have in a class 8 truck/trailer.


those are more less the same motors, just differance pumps/emissions stuff. Im familiar with a few different motors. My old work had a fleet of C7s and other then a few egr issues there were no issues, a buddy of mine has a flat bed pete with an 8 speed and a 3126 in it, with around 500k, no real issues with it. and yes the 3406/CXX motors are different, i cant sit here and name every motor ive ever touched, but the CAT line has been good from what ive seen.



Rat_Power_78;1460167 said:


> I think you are definitely going the right direction by looking at 33k trucks instead of staying under CDL. One thought though, are you sure you want to stay with single axle? Any reason not to step up to a tandem? I know you said you would like to keep in maneuverable, but that is a pretty broad term... If you are looking to be able to haul some materials, tandem will haul a lot more while using the same about the same amount of fuel. If you are doing very many bigger jobs, it is way worth it unless you really need to fit it in some tight spots in the winter. IMO, the perfect truck for general landscape/hardscape (I dont count mowing/maintenance as landscaping) work would be a tandem axle truck with a 16' contractor body. Add some taller boards (I'm used to 2x6s) and you have the ultimate in versatility.


this is where I was more where I was going, if your allready knowing your going with a CDL truck, depending on what your doing I would go straight to the ten wheelers, in which case the paccars are your answer, we have put my buddies T800 with a 14 foot body in places some would hesitate with an f550. and an under worked bigger truck is going to out last an over worked smaller truck. you can find used class 8s for less then 20k, up here and im talking heavy spec'd 46 rear 16/fronts with a big motor and a 13/18 speed.


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## NFDDJS (Sep 22, 2009)

Look for a good used truck that is before 2008. 2007 was the last year of no emisions. Have you looked into the Chevy or GMC 4500 or 5500? I have one 2006 4500 and one 2007 5500 and they are great. Never had any problems.


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## Mid-Ohio Scaper (Aug 17, 2008)

NFDDJS;1463861 said:


> Look for a good used truck that is before 2008. 2007 was the last year of no emisions. Have you looked into the Chevy or GMC 4500 or 5500? I have one 2006 4500 and one 2007 5500 and they are great. Never had any problems.


I have looked at the Chevy and GMC but I'm not a big fan of the inside layout of the cab. Same goes for Ford also really. They're set up like their pick-ups. Where as the Freightliner and International I think have better visibility.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

blowerman;1460771 said:


> I've never seen a 8LL in a smaller single axle.. While I love em for big trucks, an auto or 7 speed would be better suited in a small truck.
> 
> Price wise, around the midwest it's hard to beat old muni trucks. Since they are almost always set up with central, plow and salter; you can't build out something for the money.
> Most are autos, cummins 8.3 or Cats. Usually so low on miles, they rust before the motor is shot.


As I've said many times here,there's a 8 speed RR behind my 250HP 3126E. Perfect tranny for the correct application.I have friends with similiar setups,just different truck makes.It is the upgraded manual tranny of choice for owner operators in a single or tandem dump who need serious gearing(in lieu of a 2 speed axle usually),serious beef,dependability, and who know how to shift them correctly.


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## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

tuney443;1464031 said:


> As I've said many times here,there's a 8 speed RR behind my 250HP 3126E. Perfect tranny for the correct application.I have friends with similiar setups,just different truck makes.It is the upgraded manual tranny of choice for owner operators in a single or tandem dump who need serious gearing(in lieu of a 2 speed axle usually),serious beef,dependability, and who know how to shift them correctly.


Oh this is so true!

The 8LL is way better then a split rear end.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

SullivanSeptic;1464039 said:


> Oh this is so true!
> 
> The 8LL is way better then a split rear end.


I don't know if it's because of cost or perhaps weight, but the 8LL is a great transmission. 
They should put it in more medium duty trucks.
Most have no clue how to shift a split 5 & 2 rear end.


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## mustangman02232 (Mar 21, 2011)

blowerman;1464045 said:


> I don't know if it's because of cost or perhaps weight, but the 8LL is a great transmission.
> They should put it in more medium duty trucks.
> Most have no clue how to shift a split 5 & 2 rear end.


ill admit i cant split shift a 2 speed rear end, I can do 18s, 13s, even 5+4s. but ive never driven something small enough for a 2 speed rear, i have a friend with a 3126 in a 98 330 pete with a regular 8 speed (no deep reduction) and its fine for a small truck, the truck in my sig however has an 8LL with a backwards shift pattern0 (it could really use the full 18)


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## HEStufrthnnails (Nov 20, 2009)

If I may offer an opinion? If your planning on any snowplowing ? I'd stay with a single axle and an auto regardless of make of truck. Now if I were planning on plowing roadways or using this truck primarily for hauling aggregate I'd go with a tandem axle and still would prefer the auto just for the ease of plowing while cornering. And the Allison transmission is a good one to go with. Either way you decide to go. Plan on lots of weight,and carry a set of chains. These trucks shine bright in the right situation,but 32,000lbs stuck on flat surface is so aggravating.Lol


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