# Walmart



## Tracy89

Local guy around here said that he was getting 70 grand a season the plow our local walmart...I feel like im being taken for a ride and being filled to brim with bull****. This seems pretty outrageous to me...what are your opinions?


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## grandview

Is that the total contract price for a 10 year deal?


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## Mick76

What town is it in?


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## REAPER

Send a letter in that you can do it for $50,000.oo.

If you can. What is the size and requirements and total average snowfall?


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## Matson Snow

Tracy89;1262298 said:


> Local guy around here said that he was getting 70 grand a season the plow our local walmart...I feel like im being taken for a ride and being filled to brim with bull****. This seems pretty outrageous to me...what are your opinions?


Might have gotten that price 20 Years ago......I would say he is getting in the 20 grand range for the Season....Im calling Bulls$%t on him.......


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## Mick76

Depending on the location (70-90 inches of snow) in the state I don't thinks hes BSing at all.... do the calculations..... after I did these he'd make about 20K BEFORE taxes...... this is also based before usm took over, when all the wally worlds were zero tolerance.....


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## fci

Tracy89;1262298 said:


> Local guy around here said that he was getting 70 grand a season the plow our local walmart...I feel like im being taken for a ride and being filled to brim with bull****. This seems pretty outrageous to me...what are your opinions?


Maybe he is the owner of USM. When you see him tell him to pay the guys that plowed the other sites!!! :laughing:


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## Matson Snow

Mick76;1262493 said:


> Depending on the location (70-90 inches of snow) in the state I don't thinks hes BSing at all.... do the calculations..... after I did these he'd make about 20K BEFORE taxes...... this is also based before usm took over, when all the wally worlds were zero tolerance.....


Remember Rich Arlington saying that in Erie, which gets a Butt load of Snow.....That a Lowes would go for around 20 Grand.....National have F^&Ked things up on these Big Box Store Pricing......

The Wal-mart near me....Which is a Super Wal-mart.. This store went for 25 Grand for the season...Thats all inclusive...Plowing ,Salting,Walks and treating the Walks...

In this area we are nearing 70" of snow for the season....So, on my calculator these numbers just don't add up.....


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## PapaSnowPlow

I put a bid in for a couple super wally worlds in the 50k range and they said we were about double what USM found someone to it it for. yikes!


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## Mick76

Matson Snow;1262498 said:


> Remember Rich Arlington saying that in Erie, which gets a Butt load of Snow.....That a Lowes would go for around 20 Grand.....National have F^&Ked things up on these Big Box Store Pricing......
> 
> The Wal-mart near me....Which is a Super Wal-mart.. This store went for 25 Grand for the season...Thats all inclusive...Plowing ,Salting,Walks and treating the Walks...
> 
> In this area we are nearing 70" of snow for the season....So, on my calculator these numbers just don't add up.....


Oh trust me I hear ya....The OP stated the guy WAS getting 70K so this leads me to believe this was before usm.... Hey we havn't heard from Rich lately... must be counting all of his cash....:laughing:.....These "big box" stores are being done by excavating companies up here that havn't done snow before... they're going a ok job but they're just keeping their guys busy at those rates.... just goes to show everyone, that everyones doing anything to stay above water...... stinks but like any business everything is cyclical...things WILL turn around is just WHEN they'll turn around is the question...


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## dayexco

Mick76;1262528 said:


> ..These "big box" stores are being done by excavating companies up here that havn't done snow before..*i've done lots of snow before, and it'd be my guess....most of us have a lot better handle on equipment cost the whole course of the season...than somebody that pushes snow 4 months a year*. they're going a ok job but they're just keeping their guys busy at those rates * i have no idea what his rates are...i'm more plagued by the guy who has a pickup and a blade..."maybe" a skidsteer...that wants to make a few extra bucks*.... just goes to show everyone, that everyones doing anything to stay above water...... stinks but like any business everything is cyclical...things WILL turn around is just WHEN they'll turn around is the question...


i know one thing, when i typically make my living 8-9 months a year moving dirt...snow removal is not real high on my list. i make money at it, or don't do it. and i'd bet nation wide...there are more excavating contractors that know their cost of doing business, hourly cost of operation,etc.that are encumbered by the pickup/plow skidsteer contractor...than the other way around.


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## Tracy89

Its on oxford. Im not sure if this is for a ten year contract or not. didnt really get into the specifics because i felt a little mis lead. I had just heard that he was getting 70 grand to plow it. he has an international plow truck and a backhoe with a box blade parked there. would lead me to belive thats all hes using. If thats the case id do it for 50 grand and do it with my one truck for crying out loud. Im not interested in getting that big at this point in the game. just was looking for opinions on if you guys thought that he was spoofing me so i can steer clear of the fellow.


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## Tracy89

it was said that it was this season...


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## Mick76

Tracy89;1262965 said:


> Its on oxford. Im not sure if this is for a ten year contract or not. didnt really get into the specifics because i felt a little mis lead. I had just heard that he was getting 70 grand to plow it. he has an international plow truck and a backhoe with a box blade parked there. would lead me to belive thats all hes using. If thats the case id do it for 50 grandHow much would you make (put in your pocket) at this price? and do it with my one truckGood luck with using your one truck for crying out loud. Im not interested in getting that big at this point in the game. just was looking for opinions on if you guys thought that he was spoofing me so i can steer clear of the fellow.


Hes BSing you.......I was offered the Auburn Wally World for 30K.....

I know the contractor 2 years back went bankrup because he didn't get paid for that oxford wally world... don't know if it was his fault or you know whos but he did file chaper 11


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## Mick76

dayexco;1262947 said:


> i know one thing, when i typically make my living 8-9 months a year moving dirt...snow removal is not real high on my list. i make money at it, or don't do it. and i'd bet nation wide...there are more excavating contractors that know their cost of doing business, hourly cost of operation,etc.that are encumbered by the pickup/plow skidsteer contractor...than the other way around.


I'm not disagreeing with anything you've wrote.... alot if not most of the excavating cos up here like to take the winter off....times are tough and they are getting into plowing to help with their bottom lines


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## Rc2505

The other thing to remember is even if he contracted the job for 70 grand, is he going to get paid for even 50% of it?


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## taylor6400

Hey all...I have been a lurker here for a while...mainly in the ATV section. But just had to register to comment about Walmart because I hate them. 

Im not in the removal business so I have no idea about $ figures. What I do know is when you do business with these large corporations its dangerous. In my work we do business with some large "Big Box" stores. Not walmart, but Tractor Supply Co and Lowes. Their contracts you have to sign as a vendor are rediculous. They have the right to either with hold payment or give charge backs for anything imaginable. So, what I am hearing about them not paying a snow removal outfit makes perfect sense. This is essentially just another vendor to them. I would imagine if everything isnt perfect and up to agreement standards they will with hold at best partial payment. So, yeah, I would just be careful with these guys. 

Case in point...Just this week our sales team had a meeting at TSC corporate headquarters and they were warned that they would fine the companies they worked for $500 if anyone was caught with a cell phone in the building!


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## Tracy89

That seems a little rediculous. I am always on my phone trying to get more work lining more work up calling about supplies stuff of that nature. I dont wish to be this big. I wish that my bussiness some day will be large enough to handle some of the smaller commercial places. Has anyone had experience in plowing Lamprons or Aarons and places of that nature?


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## Jewell1386

70 grand is close to what they guy I sub for gets but the Walmart is very large, we are talking 3 pickups one 14 foot pusher on a back hoe and an old state highway truck for 4 hours on a 2 inch push. we also got over 100 inches here. That includes all the salt plus cleaning the areas we atack snow in


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## Tracy89

jeese. More power to him. That just seems like alot of headaches. Ive been following posts about working for them. People talking about not getting paid or their pay being held back. Just seems like you have to have ALOT of money up front. I kinda like making the 800 that i do every storm and know that when i make a phone call the check is in the mail....


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## Luther

I had a heart-wrenching conversation last night with a southern contractor who is being absolutely screwed over by USM. They owe her in excess of $100,000 for the 3 Walmarts she has been servicing.

She has all of her ducks in a row. She agreed to per event pricing, every event signed off as completed by the managers, all of her reporting back to USM follows their rules....she's jumped through every USM hoop required. 

She has enjoyed great relationships with the managers at Walmart, has communicated her problems with them and they are disgusted with the way USM has treated her.

One particular Walmart manager made it a mission to get this addressed and get her paid in their Florida meeting a short time ago. He was shut down by Walmart corporate shooters and told to not pursue this....and that USM will make her go away. The talk amongst the Walmart managers is their disappointment in corporate ethics and screwing over their contractors. They all want to keep their jobs, and they will do what corporate tells them to do.

She's a wonderful person who has worked very hard, and this will put her out of business.

The USM dealings with contractors is sickening, and I am growing tired of their continuing involvement with SIMA....not to mention my disappointment in SIMA's neutrality and defense of USM's actions.


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## blowerman

Mick76;1262528 said:


> these "big box" stores are being done by excavating companies up here that havn't done snow before... they're going a ok job but they're just keeping their guys busy at those rates.... just goes to show everyone, that everyones doing anything to stay above water...... stinks but like any business everything is cyclical...things WILL turn around is just WHEN they'll turn around is the question...


I'd agree with "day." Most excavating companies have a better grasp on the cost of running equipment. In snow removal if all you have is a few pick up trucks, a couple of bad accounts shouldn't sink the company. However, in excavating, try running large scale machines and pay out for dump trucks, make a mistake and watch a company go down real fast. 
It doesn't cost as much as one thinks to run a wheel loader and properly clear a big parking lot compared to using a pick up and/or skid loader. Many guys that only do snow try to figure out how they can buy a wheel loader and make the numbers work in winter. 
A generic way is take the hours you'd work in winter and divide that into the cost of the machine. Now, compete with an excavating company that runs a machine perhaps 10 months out of the year, you get why they can clear cheaper than you and still make the same profit.


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## Matson Snow

TCLA;1268211 said:


> I had a heart-wrenching conversation last night with a southern contractor who is being absolutely screwed over by USM. They owe her in excess of $100,000 for the 3 Walmarts she has been servicing.
> 
> She has all of her ducks in a row. She agreed to per event pricing, every event signed off as completed by the managers, all of her reporting back to USM follows their rules....she's jumped through every USM hoop required.
> 
> She has enjoyed great relationships with the managers at Walmart, has communicated her problems with them and they are disgusted with the way USM has treated her.
> 
> One particular Walmart manager made it a mission to get this addressed and get her paid in their Florida meeting a short time ago. He was shut down by Walmart corporate shooters and told to not pursue this....and that USM will make her go away. The talk amongst the Walmart managers is their disappointment in corporate ethics and screwing over their contractors. They all want to keep their jobs, and they will do what corporate tells them to do.
> 
> She's a wonderful person who has worked very hard, and this will put her out of business.
> 
> The USM dealings with contractors is sickening, and I am growing tired of their continuing involvement with SIMA....not to mention my disappointment in SIMA's neutrality and defense of USM's actions.


This a Very Sad Story indeed....But seems to be more common Every Day....This is one of my main Problems with SIMA....They seem to want to do Nothing about this issue other than tell contractors We must work with these Nationals and this is the Wave of the Future......They Hold webnars and Seminars on how to work with Nationals....They seem to openly accept this type of Business activity with open arms.....I thought SIMA was an organization to help the Snow Removal Contractor...Not cater to the NSP model..

Look on SIMAs Board of Directors...There are Several People that are NSPs or wanna be an NSP.....Hell, SIMA was founded by a fellow that that took Snow removal Pricing into the Toilet by Following the NSP model.....

I think its time that SIMA pulls its Head out of its Rear End and Take a Good hard look at USM and itself.....Do whats Best for the Membership as a whole not just one....


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## Mick76

Crappy scenerio for her. As I mentioned earlier the contractor I know had to file chapter 11 because of this wally world not paying. It really sucks but thats why I don't have "all of my eggs in one basket".

Blowerman, I agree with both you and day. Just like pricing, its a regional thing. Alot of the excavating companies UP HERE like to take the winter off...They can't do that now because of the lack of work in excavating. Like I stated earlier. "they're getting into plowing to BETTER THEIR BOTTOM LINE..... by doing just as you mentioned "_A generic way is take the hours you'd work in winter and divide that into the cost of the machine. Now, compete with an excavating company that runs a machine perhaps 10 months out of the year, you get why they can clear cheaper than you and still make the same profit_."

Matson,
I like you more and more when you have a legitimate point to make!

And on a side note, I like it when a thread gets revived and theres truely good points to make......


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## Matson Snow

Mick76;1268231 said:


> Crappy scenerio for her. As I mentioned earlier the contractor I know had to file chapter 11 because of this wally world not paying. It really sucks but thats why I don't have "all of my eggs in one basket".
> 
> Blowerman, I agree with both you and day. Just like pricing, its a regional thing. Alot of the excavating companies UP HERE like to take the winter off...They can't do that now because of the lack of work in excavating. Like I stated earlier. "they're getting into plowing to BETTER THEIR BOTTOM LINE..... by doing just as you mentioned "_A generic way is take the hours you'd work in winter and divide that into the cost of the machine. Now, compete with an excavating company that runs a machine perhaps 10 months out of the year, you get why they can clear cheaper than you and still make the same profit_."
> 
> *Matson,
> I like you more and more when you have a legitimate point to make!*
> And on a side note, I like it when a thread gets revived and theres truely good points to make......


:laughing::laughing:......What, insted of Screwing around all the Time....

I have some pretty strong feelings on the National Model and how SIMA is or Not dealing with this issue....


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## Luther

I'll make myself very clear......my post was not meant to fuel SIMA bashing. I/we have been long time supporters and members of this organization, and will continue to do so.

I am sad for those who have been victims of USM, their approach to snow and ice management, and the way they do business.

Period.


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## WIPensFan

TCLA;1268294 said:


> I'll make myself very clear......my post was not meant to fuel SIMA bashing. I/we have been long time supporters and members of this organization, and will continue to do so.
> 
> I am sad for those who have been victims of USM, their approach to snow and ice management, and the way they do business.
> 
> Period.


If your friend followed all the rules and jumped through all the hoops, why are they not paying her?


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## Luther

WIPensFan;1268297 said:


> If your friend followed all the rules and jumped through all the hoops, why are they not paying her?


This is the $100,000 question.

She is looking for the answer to this.

I do believe her when she tells me they are rude and insulting to her on the phone. She gets a different person on the phone when she calls and they will not let her talk to anyone in real authority. They are dismissing her, and her requests for answers. Their approach seems to be to wear her down until she just gives up.

I recommended she consult a lawyer and the local news media for assistance and help in this matter.


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## WIPensFan

TCLA;1268302 said:


> This is the $100,000 question.
> 
> She is looking for the answer to this.
> 
> I do believe her when she tells me they are rude and insulting to her on the phone. She gets a different person on the phone when she calls and they will not let her talk to anyone in real authority. They are dismissing her, and her requests for answers. Their approach seems to be to wear her down until she just gives up.
> 
> I recommended she consult a lawyer and the local news media for assistance and help in this matter.


Good ideas. They really sound like they have this non-payment scheme down to a science! Hopefully she gets paid.


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## Matson Snow

TCLA;1268294 said:


> I'll make myself very clear......my post was not meant to fuel SIMA bashing. I/we have been long time supporters and members of this organization, and will continue to do so.
> 
> I am sad for those who have been victims of USM, their approach to snow and ice management, and the way they do business.
> 
> Period.


Your Position on SIMA is Clear.......

And this is *MY *position......Why allow a Company such as USM Still be a Member...There are enough Horror Storys involving USM to at the Very least to investigate what the hell is going on and Boot their asses out.....It also goes for the Contractors that are members that screw enough people....Lets Not give them awards or hold webnars on how to deal with them because they are the wave of the future...The Boys club we call SIMA needs to stop and They(SIMA) need to start looking out for the Membership as a Whole....Not just the chosen few....


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## mullis56

I agree with all of this...


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## Dwan

Well here is my story. 
Last season (2009/2010) USM contacted me for plowing our local WW. I asked them what they had to offer. They said they would pay per event or seasonal. I said I did not like dealing with NSP's as they all had a bad reputation and they would have to show me that I would get paid. They assured me I would. Ok so I figured my pricing then timed it by 4 for the per event price. That way if I got paid 25% I would at least make my money. They turned that price down and told me what they were willing to pay. If I rember right it was $250 per event. We have a small ww lot (68,000sq.ft.)I refused and they asked what I would charge for seasonal. I said $75,000 and ofcourse they said no way. Getting late in the season (end of November) they were between a rock and a hard spot as there was no one else they were dealing with in my area as I had been leading them on saying "No problem we will work something out" USM had no ware else to turn so they accepted my offer. Then came time for me to sign there contract. I told them if they could reduce the contract to 2 pages I would at least read it because there was no way I would sign the ridicules one they first sent. I crossed out most of the requirements on the contract that I felt did not have anything to do with me doing the work and getting paid for the work I did. We left in the clause that said they could deduct up to 20% for less then 100% normal snow fall (97"/yr average) I accepted the 5% discount if they paid me within 10 days of billing (what a joke) We finally settled on a contract It is now around the 5th of Dec. so I sent them an invoice for 18% of the total seasonal bill (minus there 5%) to be paid within 10 days. they did not pay in the 10 days Dec 20 and it is snowing. I go to WW lot and call USM and said there is 3" of snow on the ground and we expect 6 more inches before morning and I will not plow until I have proof I am getting paid. of course they threatened me so I hung up on them. Got a call back with in 5 minutes asking what my problem was and why I would not honer there contract. I said they had already breached the contract by not paying me on time and for me to go any further I had to have proof I was getting paid. They sent me an scanned copy of the check by e-mail within 1 hour. ( I get e-mail on my Black berry). I plowed the rest of the month and on through Jan 2010. I sent an invoice for Jan on Jan 1st and was paid by the 15TH. late but ok I was paid. Again invoiced Feb 1st and no check by the 20th. So I again went to lot and called them saying it needed plowing but would not plow until I was paid for Feb. (but this time I lied there was no snow.) same as Dec. got paid. The rest of the year went on about the same. Had to fight for every cent. End of season comes along and we only had 67" of snow for the year. so they deducted the 20% that was in the contract for snow fall below normal. 20% of $75,000 is $15,000 or my last payment. Now I had done some plowing before the contract was signed back in Oct and Nov. which added up to about $16,000 which I was still waiting for. I refused to do final cleanup and inspection untill that was paid. Finally got check in may for early plowing less interest. Cheep bastards. 
Anyway to make a long story short I got what was due but learned to never work for them again. 

The paper work. a bit of advice if any of you want to do business with USM you need to find 1 person there to deal with and no one else. If someone else calls and asks for information tell them to go through your contact there. and stick with it. I got called at least 20 times for proof of insurance which I faxed/scanned/and sent by mail each time until the last time. I then sent 1 copy to my contact and referred all calls to him.
Anyone wish to chat about this PM me for a phone#


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## Camden

Dwan that is an incredible story. Nice to hear that you didn't let them walk all over you like they've done to so many others.


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## Matson Snow

Thanks for the Story.....................

Between the 5% Discounts, and The Contract and all the other BS....It just makes you wanna run out and work for them....This is The Wave of the Future?????......I dont think any Webnar or seminar is gonna help solve these Problems....


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## Tracy89

how can they legally withhold the money that is right fully owed to the contractor? I guess i just cant wrap my head around the fact that its ok for them to break their end of the deal but if the contractor breaks even a fraction of his/her side of the deal? how is this legally possible? Eventually they are going to bit in the ass arent they? Common sense says that you can only burn so many local contractors before no one will work for u...


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## Dwan

Tracy; Laws are mostly writen in state for each state. They do not apply in another state unless they are a federal law. Some do but mostly not cival cases.
For 1 they are probably not licenced to do business in any state except Pennsylvania.
2. There contract says they are only covered by the laws in the state of Pennsylvania.
3. I beleave Pennsylvania law will not try a case ware the crime is cometed out of state.

To add to my above post.
This is just a small outline. it would take 3 pages atleast on this forum to cover what happened and I am not sure I want to go into it all again. 

If any of you are owed money remember you have some leverage as long as the snow season is not over. If you have not been paid trust me you will not get paid unless you use that leverage.
These are people sitting in an office punching numbers on a computer making money off your and my back.
I suspect this thread will go the way most go talking about NSP's "poof"


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## dayexco

Dwan;1268382 said:


> Tracy; Laws are mostly writen in state for each state. They do not apply in another state unless they are a federal law. Some do but mostly not cival cases.
> For 1 they are probably not licenced to do business in any state except Pennsylvania.
> 2. There contract says they are only covered by the laws in the state of Pennsylvania.
> 3. I beleave Pennsylvania law will not try a case ware the crime is cometed out of state.
> 
> To add to my above post.
> This is just a small outline. it would take 3 pages atleast on this forum to cover what happened and I am not sure I want to go into it all again.
> 
> If any of you are owed money remember you have some leverage as long as the snow season is not over. If you have not been paid trust me you will not get paid unless you use that leverage.
> These are people sitting in an office punching numbers on a computer making money off your and my back.
> I suspect this thread will go the way most go talking about NSP's "poof"


what makes you think that?


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## Mick76

Tracy89;1268371 said:


> how can they legally withhold the money that is right fully owed to the contractor? I guess i just cant wrap my head around the fact that its ok for them to break their end of the deal but if the contractor breaks even a fraction of his/her side of the deal? how is this legally possible? Eventually they are going to bit in the ass arent they? Common sense says that you can only burn so many local contractors before no one will work for u...


They're not withholding the $... you have a choice to get paid in a timely manner (I think its 14 days...I'd have to look at that contract again) and deduct the 5% or wait 45+ days to get paid ... so they're not breaking any part of the deal... YOUR agreeing to do this by signing that contract! ..... If you'd like a copy of their contract... pm me your email and I'll send it to you... 
Its good bathroom reading material


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## Dwan

dayexco;1268457 said:


> what makes you think that?


What makes me think what? you meen the poof? because in the last 5 years there has been lots of them and you can't find them because they are not here any more.

Mick there are a lot of them held a lot longer then 45 days.Some of mine were held for over 30 days and they still took the 5% discount. 
And you are right the contract is bathroom material and when you are done reading it it isn't even good enough to wipe your ass! and flushed.


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## John Mac

Whats is the connection of Plow site and USM? Does this site benefit from them and if so how? 
I would think that the independent contractor membership out ways USM, what am I not getting? 

If doing business with USM has hurt so many contractor's (and I don't doubt it has) then wouldn't this site benefit from support of the membership majority to help them avoid those pitfalls?


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## dayexco

John Mac;1268566 said:


> Whats is the connection of Plow site and USM? Does this site benefit from them and if so how?
> I would think that the independent contractor membership out ways USM, what am I not getting?
> 
> If doing business with USM has hurt so many contractor's (and I don't doubt it has) then wouldn't this site benefit from support of the membership majority to help them avoid those pitfalls?


where's the thanks button when you need it?


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## dayexco

Matson Snow;1268219 said:


> I think its time that SIMA pulls its Head out of its Rear End and Take a Good hard look at USM and itself.....Do whats Best for the Membership as a whole not just one....


i have no clue what SIMA does not being a member. but i'd be curious as to the membership demographic vs. size of operation. how many SIMA members are 1-2 man shops, etc. how many are larger excavating companies etc. with 20+ pieces of equipment, employees.


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## csi.northcoast

my 2 cents

i am a past member of sima , if the current members of sime voice their displeasure to sima or did not re-new maybe the message will be heard. also after reading these horror stories i can't beleive people still plow for CERTAIN national companies ( i am not lumping them in all together). maybe it is the eog of plowing a "big box store" well ego won't pay the bills or provide food on the table. Me personally i do a little bit of work for one national (about 2% of my business) and yes they pay slow but it does not bother me because their sites are close to other sites i service. 

to all of you folks waiting to get paid...good luck, i would suggest the advice of a attorney i am not sure if you can put a lein on the property or whatever action you can do 

but good luck we all work long hours for a decreasing paycheck and to work for free is heartbreaking


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## John Mac

How about this conspiracy theory. 
USM uses this site for a research tool for new prospective sub contractors. Plow-site gets some benefit from USM if they protect their image so the well of prospective subs doesn't dry up, or SIMA and USM are connected and they both use this site as a prospect tool and both can't afford any negative press. 
SIMA only benefits when they have paying members and USM only can operate if they have sub contractors. 
USM customers think they are saving them big money as long as the work gets done. When that stops USM will no longer exist. FREE market the american way and all that! IMHO SIMA should be, and could be a valuable tool for independent *self performing * prime contractors only.

I could be completely crazy so feel free to correct me anyone.


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## Matson Snow

John Mac;1269285 said:


> How about this conspiracy theory.
> USM uses this site for a research tool for new prospective sub contractors. Plow-site gets some benefit from USM if they protect their image so the well of prospective subs doesn't dry up, or SIMA and USM are connected and they both use this site as a prospect tool and both can't afford any negative press.
> SIMA only benefits when they have paying members and USM only can operate if they have sub contractors.
> USM customers think they are saving them big money as long as the work gets done. When that stops USM will no longer exist. FREE market the american way and all that! IMHO SIMA should be, and could be a valuable tool for independent *self performing * prime contractors only.
> 
> I could be completely crazy so feel free to correct me anyone.


John....You are correct in saying SIMA is a Valuable tool.....I can say from first hand Knowledge it is....They have some Great things to offer the Contractor.....But..Where in my Opinion SIMA is falling short is on its Policy or Lack there of for Companys Like USM...

What i mean is There are so many Horror storys about USM Screwing and out right Bullsh$# they pull on contractors...Such as There contract...or the 5% clause or the out right putting all the Risk on the contractor...So on and so on...

SIMA takes No position on USM ....They let them be members in good standing without even looking into the crap they pull.......

Its time SIMA takes a stand against Companys such as USM, insted of coddling them and letting them Display the SIMA logo......Its time to boot their asses out and take a stand against Companys such as USM and their Business Practices....

Come- on SIMA stand up for the Contractors that make up the good portion of your Membership......Not a couple of NSPs....


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## RLM

Matson is correct about one thing for sure, SIMA does need to step up its enforcement of the former code of conduct, etc. 
I let them know that there was a guy in town here using their logo on his website, he was a member years ago, but not listed on website as a current member, I emailed them to let them know see what gave ? 3 months later hes still not listed....his website still says hes a member ? Im just getting around to sending my dues in (late) but it sure does make it hard to justify them when I can use the logo for free apparantly. To a certain point I see where kicking a contractor out puts them in a tough spot leagally though, especially since there really is not policy, proceedure, or precident to my knowledge. 
People also need to remember SIMA was set up in part (I believe) to develop a network of quality contactors for a national contractor to utilize. The downside/upside is that list (membership) is more or less public info, we all want to be found on that list when good work is out there, so as contractors we have to decide who we work for.
I looked at USM contract, & stuff I had heard and decided against working for them, I have already been stiffed for 7K by another national, yet we continue to work for 2 others, one (AGMG) is great pay on time, I know they check up because Ive met tere rep onsite multiple times, the other is 45 days out ussally, we are currently owed for 1/2 our money on the seasonal contract from them....we will see how they do.
I also have a feeling that it is not only the national service providers but the clients they serve (national chains). We had a 3 year deal with a national service provider for a big box store, the big box pulled the contract after 1st year on the national service provider to go a cheaper route. What Im getting at is that the chains bean counter & attorney in lala land dont care about the spirit of the agreement, if there is an out & they can make (or save) their share holders an extra penny so be it. They also dont visit the stores very often, so they dont see the crappy job that is done, they DO get what they pay for. So th guys that say we lost xyz to a lowballer, that lowballer set a new budget to work with & delivers what they are willing to pay for. With the way they work they are only concerned about today-next stock report, beyond that they dont know if they (accountant or attorney) have a job...so why care about the slip & fall that they dont get served with untill one year away.


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## dayexco

Matson Snow;1269545 said:


> SIMA takes No position on USM ....They let them be members in good standing without even looking into the crap they pull.......
> 
> Its time SIMA takes a stand against Companys such as USM, insted of coddling them and letting them Display the SIMA logo......Its time to boot their asses out and take a stand against Companys such as USM and their Business Practices....


the silence is deafening.


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## Matson Snow

dayexco;1271222 said:


> the silence is deafening.


I agree.......But, thats what i expected.....


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## dayexco

wayne county, michigan, that anywhere near milford? i have brother and good friend that live near there. we have gone to the dream cruise on woodward several times..what a BLAST that is.

sorry, off topic, should have PM'd that


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## Matson Snow

dayexco;1271232 said:


> wayne county, michigan, that anywhere near milford? i have brother and good friend that live near there. we have gone to the dream cruise on woodward several times..what a BLAST that is.
> 
> sorry, off topic, should have PM'd that


Wayne County is Detroit and South.......Im in Trenton which is about an hour from Milford....I used to live in Royal Oak which is a Main Gathering Place for the Dream Cruise...


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## dayexco

we always sit on intersection of maple and woodward. you may know allor outdoors from here. his uncle is good friend of mine. allor outdoors and his dad came out here gopher hunting one time, i dumped allor mechanical's dad out of the back end of my pickup in a pasture one time by accident. thank God nobody got hurt.


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## Matson Snow

Small World indeed......:salute:


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## dayexco

you know, i've seen websites that encourage memberships in organizations, pay membership fees...give a few educational seminars..this is not unique to any specific industry. what happens is they gather a list of "potentials" from each area, and pass it on to those who really, really need to know. the education process stops, and those who really need to know, have a data base of newbies they can shove around.


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## snobama

I would have charged 1 meeeeellion dollars


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## Cut-n-It

USM no longer does our Wal-mart. Ihad ahard time getting paid from USM but they finally paid.


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