# state of snowplowing



## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

well with winter fast approaching the craziness has started. I'm seeing just crazy prices being thrown out be nationals and property managers. Lowes Walmarts ,targets, shopping centers and so on last year going low 20's for the season offering 14 to 17k the year. Back 18 years ago I did a Sams club season was 59K before it closed 15K. Are guys really taking the work for that money, everything cost wise is out of control and getting worst by the hour. insurance, fuel and salt have gone up 65%. that not even taking into account labor cost if you can find anyone to work. now the cost of maintenance and equipment damn! are guy in your areas taking the work?

After last year the canceled contracts in mid February to this year January ,February and march seasonal contract hey what about December and November! 5 day contract termination clause. here another new one not equal payments light than heavier late season why hmmm! so they can cancel in February. just sucks so bad to be the unwanted plow guy


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Race to the bottom.....


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

BUFF said:


> Race to the bottom.....


I see it all the time and just shake my head.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> Race to the bottom.....


I'll take the loss.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

fireside said:


> well with winter fast approaching the craziness has started. I'm seeing just crazy prices being thrown out be nationals and property managers. Lowes Walmarts ,targets, shopping centers and so on last year going low 20's for the season offering 14 to 17k the year. Back 18 years ago I did a Sams club season was 59K before it closed 15K. Are guys really taking the work for that money, everything cost wise is out of control and getting worst by the hour. insurance, fuel and salt have gone up 65%. that not even taking into account labor cost if you can find anyone to work. now the cost of maintenance and equipment damn! are guy in your areas taking the work?
> 
> After last year the canceled contracts in mid February to this year January ,February and march seasonal contract hey what about December and November! 5 day contract termination clause. here another new one not equal payments light than heavier late season why hmmm! so they can cancel in February. just sucks so bad to be the unwanted plow guy


I don't get involved with crap like that. It's not worth the stress, headaches or time.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I don't get involved with crap like that. It's not worth the stress, headaches or time.


Thanks for your input


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

m_ice said:


> Thanks for your input


SKW


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

I don’t do national thing but to think that other locals are seeing it is stupid.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

fireside said:


> I don't do national thing but to think that other locals are seeing it is stupid.


The problem is it drives pricing down across the board.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

I do some per push nationals. Been slowly getting away from them. I’m using them to get a good foothold in the communities I want direct contracts from. It’s working. Gone from strictly residential to 20+ commercial on top of the residential I’m keeping for a couple more years. Of the commercial almost half are mine, rest are through management companies.

I do skip out on seasonal NSP contracts. Too light on pricing. Example is local Lowe’s for about half what it should be and parameters are not matching store needs. I passed on that one. Not worth the headache.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

We've gained work yet again. Not for nationals. We will work for friendly "competitors" who find it difficult to service our area, or is out of their reach. But we also reciprocate, so it works out - accountability on both sides. You take care of my customer and I will take care of yours.

There are many challenges to this industry, and the OP touched on most of them. But the ones that are out of your control are the most frustrating. I get annoyed when apples and apples are not compared. 

Case in point - a large (at one time the largest) steel manufacturing company opened its doors recently after a 25 year hiatus. Turns out smelting aluminum is worthwhile again. And as they ramped up over the past year, they realized they couldn't handle snow in house anymore, so they sent an RFQ out, and limited it to 3 pre-qualified. We had an in (worked for the OP manager at a previous facility where we are still contracted), so I met with their guy and went through it all. 24/7 operation, 6 days. Hi demand. All in pricing please. Lets's just say it was into 6 figures for the winter (shy of 56 acres though).

I don't hear anything for 2 weeks after closing. Email doesn't get a response. Sent an email Oct 15 - if no answer by the end of the day, withdrawing my bid. Picked up the phone Monday ff, and get their "guy" - Oh ya, we went with another contractor that offered per event pricing. "Didn't see that in the RFQ". Well, ya we didn't ask for it, but once we saw it we thought it was the better option. "Should have re-issued RFQ with an amendment to request per event pricing. Proper way to do things/professionalism/etc." Ya, we we were running out of time. "Again - 2 weeks, no answer. RFQ initially had a 5 day deadline. Could have been done." I guess. Sorry about that. "Loose my number."

Guy probably has a buddy.

IMHE: If a potential client can't function in a professional manner, than they can't afford a professional service.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The other problem is they issue RFQ's with tight specs and then hire someone who does not and has no intention of abiding by the specs. Another reason I lose out on bids for large accounts. I'm not bidding it on the cheap and cutting corners, then getting called out and perform the work, because that is what will happen to me.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

GMC Driver said:


> We've gained work yet again. Not for nationals. We will work for friendly "competitors" who find it difficult to service our area, or is out of their reach. But we also reciprocate, so it works out - accountability on both sides. You take care of my customer and I will take care of yours.
> 
> There are many challenges to this industry, and the OP touched on most of them. But the ones that are out of your control are the most frustrating. I get annoyed when apples and apples are not compared.
> 
> ...


The no call back might be the most unprofessional thing to do. Get the bids, make your choice, and thank the others for their time and that they will be kept in mind for the future. Why piss off the only two other qualified bidders because you can't send out a simple email / phone call? Cowardly.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

GMC Driver said:


> We've gained work yet again. Not for nationals. We will work for friendly "competitors" who find it difficult to service our area, or is out of their reach. But we also reciprocate, so it works out - accountability on both sides. You take care of my customer and I will take care of yours.
> 
> There are many challenges to this industry, and the OP touched on most of them. But the ones that are out of your control are the most frustrating. I get annoyed when apples and apples are not compared.
> 
> ...


They would pull the same crap when it came time to pay too.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

jonniesmooth said:


> They would pull the same crap when it came time to pay too.


Trust your gut.


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

After almost a decade of doing this I got out this year. Sold the trucks, sold the equipment... Kept one snowblower for myself. Just not worth it anymore, no one wants to pay. And with equipment prices the way they are, I sold a 20-year-old F250 with an old MM1 and a leaky trans for $9,500. Think I bought it for like $3500 three years ago. I'll pay someone to do my driveway if I need it.

I'd rather spend time pelting my boys with snowballs anyway. It was a cool job when I was younger and single, but with a family... Meh... I'm over getting beat up physically and financially.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mitragorz said:


> After almost a decade of doing this I got out this year. Sold the trucks, sold the equipment... Kept one snowblower for myself. Just not worth it anymore, no one wants to pay. And with equipment prices the way they are, I sold a 20-year-old F250 with an old MM1 and a leaky trans for $9,500. Think I bought it for like $3500 three years ago. I'll pay someone to do my driveway if I need it.
> 
> I'd rather spend time pelting my boys with snowballs anyway. It was a cool job when I was younger and single, but with a family... Meh... I'm over getting beat up physically and financially.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mitragorz said:


> After almost a decade of doing this I got out this year. Sold the trucks, sold the equipment... Kept one snowblower for myself. Just not worth it anymore, no one wants to pay. And with equipment prices the way they are, I sold a 20-year-old F250 with an old MM1 and a leaky trans for $9,500. Think I bought it for like $3500 three years ago. I'll pay someone to do my driveway if I need it.
> 
> I'd rather spend time pelting my boys with snowballs anyway. It was a cool job when I was younger and single, but with a family... Meh... I'm over getting beat up physically and financially.


I dont have kids but I feel the same way, good on you. 
I do decent numbers, but every year I feel like its still not worth the stress and I know for a fact that no one could pay me enough to do it as an employee.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> I dont have kids but I feel the same way, good on you.
> I do decent numbers, but every year I feel like its still not worth the stress and I know for a fact that no one could pay me enough to do it as an employee.


Agreed. Its difficult to put a value on the stress that clients don't see.
Even as an employee, there's sleepless nights. I think the worst part is forecasts for snow, so you get up to look outside and look at radar, etc 3 times a night and nothing happening.
Even employees have to deal with this. They're on call, so they get up. It pretty much ruins everyone's day.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

I still wake up at 3 am all year long . Cannot seem to break that habit . I will try harder this Winter because I gave up snow plowing . Going to be different staying home while snow is falling .....


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

SHAWZER said:


> I still wake up at 3 am all year long . Cannot seem to break that habit . I will try harder this Winter because I gave up snow plowing . Going to be different staying home while snow is falling .....


The maple syrup will taste better than ever...


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

EWSplow said:


> The maple syrup will taste better than ever...












One of my new favourites. I call it pancake mix.

Although the Red Cask is pretty awesome too.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

SHAWZER said:


> I still wake up at 3 am all year long . Cannot seem to break that habit . I will try harder this Winter because I gave up snow plowing . Going to be different staying home while snow is falling .....


It's not easy. Don't know if I'll ever break it, even now it's tough to get past 4am.

Last year may have taken a break up north - snowed the whole time we were there. It's tough to not keep looking at the radar and cameras to see what it was doing at home. Nervous the whole time. I couldn't imagine trying to go south between Nov 15 and April 15.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

SHAWZER said:


> I still wake up at 3 am all year long . Cannot seem to break that habit . I will try harder this Winter because I gave up snow plowing . Going to be different staying home while snow is falling .....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

SHAWZER said:


> I still wake up at 3 am all year long . Cannot seem to break that habit . I will try harder this Winter because I gave up snow plowing . Going to be different staying home while snow is falling .....


You get use to it pretty quick..... still get up to look oot the window but able to get back to sleep quickly now.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Have been trying to sleep until 5am every day all summer for quite a few years . Not working . Maybe a few shots of Fireball just before I lay down at night ....


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## Mitragorz (Oct 11, 2013)

Mr.Markus said:


> I dont have kids but I feel the same way, good on you.
> I do decent numbers, but every year I feel like its still not worth the stress and I know for a fact that no one could pay me enough to do it as an employee.


I know I'll still be looking outside during a snowfall wishing I was out there. Especially at night when it's quiet. I'll miss that, the quiet. Finishing a parking lot in the middle of the woods at 1am and hearing nothing but the snow falling and sipping coffee. The stuff of romance!!

The last truck I held onto was my personal truck. Spent a lot of time and a lot of money trying to make it the perfect plow rig for me. Finally decided that it had to go, bc as long as it was sitting in the yard I'd be making excuses to run out "to make a few bucks".


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

It's the weather guesses..... not knowing what's going to happen.
I have a severe anxiety disorder. 
It will be my health and DR orders that end my career. Just like everything else I've enjoyed that I was ordered to stop doing in my life.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

And to add to the uncertainty of the weather, unreasonable expectations and demands of customers no matter the weather. 

A service being priced by many as a commodity. 

Unreliable or unavailable labor.

Covid nonsense. 

The list goes on.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

My brother is an unvaccinated FD with a local city. I’d take my problems over his. He’s facing a unpaid suspension or firing. For that matter so are thousands of first responders.

These times are challenging. They will either pass or get worse. Until then I’m standing my ground and working for my family.


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

Mitragorz said:


> After almost a decade of doing this I got out this year. Sold the trucks, sold the equipment... Kept one snowblower for myself. Just not worth it anymore, no one wants to pay. And with equipment prices the way they are, I sold a 20-year-old F250 with an old MM1 and a leaky trans for $9,500. Think I bought it for like $3500 three years ago. I'll pay someone to do my driveway if I need it.
> 
> I'd rather spend time pelting my boys with snowballs anyway. It was a cool job when I was younger and single, but with a family... Meh... I'm over getting beat up physically and financially.


Thats the way i felt last winter , i asked my wife to look at teaching jobs in virginia , and she got one , sold our house in pa , sold most of the equipment , now in virginia


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Kvston said:


> My brother is an unvaccinated FD with a local city. I'd take my problems over his. He's facing a unpaid suspension or firing. For that matter so are thousands of first responders.
> 
> These times are challenging. They will either pass or get worse. Until then I'm standing my ground and working for my family.


In Milwaukee, police and firefighters are exempt from covid vax restrictions. The department of public works aren't. This means garbage truck and snow plow drivers are required to be vaxed.
I was talking to my buddy who's an electrician for the city. He said that the city is accepting, as far as he knows all religious exemptions. A friend of his told them he's Catholic and got exempt. We had a bit of a chuckle, because I believe the pope was vaccinated. Apparently, his friend is closer to God than the pope.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> And to add to the uncertainty of the weather, unreasonable expectations and demands of customers no matter the weather.
> 
> A service being priced by many as a commodity.
> 
> ...


So in my weeks around the house I found the tv again...watched "International House Hunters" 
While I dont see retiring as an option mentally, if I sold everything I have here Id be in a good position to pound sand in a different more enjoyable way...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mitragorz said:


> After almost a decade of doing this I got out this year. Sold the trucks, sold the equipment... Kept one snowblower for myself. Just not worth it anymore, no one wants to pay. And with equipment prices the way they are, I sold a 20-year-old F250 with an old MM1 and a leaky trans for $9,500. Think I bought it for like $3500 three years ago. I'll pay someone to do my driveway if I need it.
> 
> I'd rather spend time pelting my boys with snowballs anyway. It was a cool job when I was younger and single, but with a family... Meh... I'm over getting beat up physically and financially.


Now you just need to properly invest that money...










I have been out of the game for close to 10 years now. It never truly leaves your system.

You will still always pull into a lot and say "who is the moron who does this lot"

You will still see the plow jockeys out and miss it for a minute.

But I will say when I jump on the sled and take off on fresh powder... something about it makes it all better. Even better when the boy goes with.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

EWSplow said:


> Agreed. Its difficult to put a value on the stress that clients don't see.
> Even as an employee, there's sleepless nights. I think the worst part is forecasts for snow, so you get up to look outside and look at radar, etc 3 times a night and nothing happening.
> Even employees have to deal with this. They're on call, so they get up. It pretty much ruins everyone's day.


If you think this is bad, don't ever start a lawn or landscape business. It's worse there. It's harder to find skilled workers if you want to do anything more than mowing, and margins are thin for most services. If snow even goes mildly well this year, we will be doing a lot less lawn work in 2022. Possibly none.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

I’ve taken over some sites where the person has retired from the biz and referred me. The last customers they keep they are usually doing big favours for. It’s painful.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Here's the state lol.
1acre sites. I predict service failures


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

GMC Driver said:


> It's not easy. Don't know if I'll ever break it, even now it's tough to get past 4am.
> 
> Last year may have taken a break up north - snowed the whole time we were there. It's tough to not keep looking at the radar and cameras to see what it was doing at home. Nervous the whole time. I couldn't imagine trying to go south between Nov 15 and April 15.


I used to think it would be hard to do also, it's not..…"sleeping in" on the other hand, now that's a Different story


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> So in my weeks around the house I found the tv again...watched "International House Hunters"
> While I dont see retiring as an option mentally, if I sold everything I have here Id be in a good position to pound sand in a different more enjoyable way...


Ugh, finally a video!! 
Nobody better lay a foot in that sand til I'm completely done. And… I'm not there to see the first one!

I do like ready through all these posts. It is sad that the pricing has gone downhill. Might have to consider a "White Out" where all the snow fighters just don't come out. Like the supposed Black Friday no one show up to work movement in retail. Then people would understand the value of these services, because in all honesty, that has been lost. I know, I know, contracts, liabilities, people's lives being at stake would prevent this, but it would be a good lesson.


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

cjames808 said:


> Here's the state lol.
> 1acre sites. I predict service failures
> View attachment 223241


The way that's written, I'd be billing
$125. 0.1-2. Salt run.
$371. 2-4
$407. 4-8
$462. 8+


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Burning off 2" of snow with salt?

Seriously?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Burning off 2" of snow with salt?
> 
> Seriously?


I've heard they burn off a lot more then 2" with salt in meatchicken.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Burning off 2" of snow with salt?
> 
> Seriously?


Guys try it around here...not sure why???


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EWSplow said:


> I've heard they burn off a lot more then 2" with salt in meatchicken.


Not here/hear.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

m_ice said:


> Guys try it around here...not sure why???


Pfft... 2" is for beginners...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Pfft... 2" is for beginners...


Nevermind...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Is it just me or would you get loaded by a company that uses this picture for their ad...









Get any in the truck...hope the scale is on thee way out and not on the loader...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Jeff?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> Jeff?


Just?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Always had a little extra salt on hand.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Looks like less than a 5 gallon bucket if you ask me...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Looks like less than a 50 gallon bucket if you ask me...


Slightly


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

From the Mafia BookFace...


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> From the Mafia BookFace...
> 
> View attachment 223445


$13,000 for the season?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I would store a loader there for $13k...does it have to run?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Low snow load area...


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

13,000.00 a month ??


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Low snow load area...


So $13k per push...?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

A those questions were axed.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Does it have a recharging station?!?


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## Mountain Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

WIPensFan said:


> Does it have a recharging station?!?


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Mark Oomkes said:


> From the Mafia BookFace...
> 
> View attachment 223445


That is a typo right? 130,000.00 up front. That price doesn't include salt/sand/liquid correct?


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