# snow removal this winter



## lawn kid (Dec 2, 2015)

Hey guys, I am planning on shoveling snow this winter, do you think it makes sense for me to buy a snow blower now or should I wait until I have more customers? I already have two customers and I was planning on going into upper middle class neighborhoods where a lot of older people live and marketing to them do you think this is a good idea?


Thanks,
Robert Jacobs


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

yes how are you going to transport the snow blower?


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## lawn kid (Dec 2, 2015)

I was planning on buying a small trailer or pouring it in the back of my friend's truck


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## kolwnmstr (Jul 1, 2014)

And your friend can drive you around whenever you need him?

This may sound rough but the best way for all of us to give you the most accurate answers and advice for the long run and not get this thread to go multiple pages with countless basic questions is if you tell us your entire business plan which will show us how much you do and do not know about providing snow work.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

You need a truck, snowblower, shovels and insurance.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

How old are you? Do you have the money saved up for a blower?


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## lawn kid (Dec 2, 2015)

I plan to shovel snow with my friend who has a truck and can drive me around. I am going to market to upper middle class neighborhoods and I was going to call realtors and ask them about shoveling snow at the houses that they are listing. My original plan was to wait until I had enough clients and money to buy a snow blower so I could hold out for a decent one.


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## lawn kid (Dec 2, 2015)

I'm almost 15 and I have a few hundred dollars saved up for a blower.


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## maxwellp (Feb 16, 2013)

Location? 
What is your average snow ❄ fall?


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## lawn kid (Dec 2, 2015)

I live on the eastern shore of Maryland


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

What's gunna happen if your buddy can't drive you around?
You have insurance?


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## lawn kid (Dec 2, 2015)

I don't have insurance, how do I go about getting it?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

At 15 you can't.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I'd just shovel and do a great job and see where it goes. Then make decision on a blower.


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## lawn kid (Dec 2, 2015)

Okay, thanks


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

JD Dave;2067026 said:


> I'd just shovel and do a great job and see where it goes. Then make decision on a blower.


I agree with DAve


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

This is what I'm going to start telling all kids who come on here. If you don't have a business, don't try to be a business.

At 15 you legally can't sign a contract or get insurance. You may want to talk to your parents about "them" starting a business. With that though you have to claim taxes, get insurance, and do everything by the book.

Your other option is to only do family friends and family members. They probably won't sue you.

Do a search on here, you can learn a lot. There are a lot of young guys that post a thread just like yours, but we never hear from them again. I would also stay away from the realtors, they won't want to pay much, and this late in the game you're probably too late (although it never hurts to ask). 
Good luck kid, we know that you're just trying to make a little money. I'd stick with a shovel until you can get your blowers.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

To the op,
Fallow this business model.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

SnoFarmer;2067457 said:


> To the op,
> Fallow this business model.


:salute:Thumbs Up


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## Ramitt (Mar 12, 2013)

Give you props to trying to get a start on snow removal... I know because I started about the same age as you.. I would stay in your general area and help out your neighbors.. Do a good job and get a good relationship with them.. Tell them you are willing to help out other people also if they need it.. If they like you and the job you do the word of mouth will spread... For right now id skip on the blower... I used to do a lot of shoveling by hand and with 2 people its not bad work... Just sucks when you get a massive dumping overnight which by the look of our season so far we wont have anything like that for awhile

The whole insurance thing here is a very touchy subject.... For me personally I plow family,friends and a the surrounding neighborhood... These people i've known since I started doing this for the past 8 years... I dont personally have insurance covering myself... Now im not saying you shouldnt(even tho you are too young) I just feel for what I do I dont need it this is up to you and you should read into the fine print of not having it.. If I was getting into business and commercial lots I would but until I get to that point I wont... Im sure ill get bashed but more power to them Thumbs Up


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## Ditta&Sons (Oct 21, 2015)

i think youll find the shovel too slow to keep up, a small entry level toro blower would be a wise investment to start off


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

theplowmeister;2067394 said:


> I agree with DAve


X2 I agree with Dave to.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2067457 said:


> To the op,
> Fallow this business model.


LoL Thumbs Up


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

when i was your age i bought a used ariens for a couple of hundred(a lot back then) stayed within the neighborhood.(walked it)..made some good pocket money and the following year bought a new bigger machine.....nothing wrong with shoveling but if you want to do 10-15 its tough on a 6 in snow....having a helper with prorches and around tight spots is a good idea


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Click the link to the you tube video in my signature. Then watch it, the whole 33 min. You have ambition, and youth on your side. Learning to spend less then you make and staying out of debt early will change your life. Everything in there applies to business as well as personal finance.


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## skorum03 (Mar 8, 2013)

You could get a decent little blower for $300 easily. I would buy one. Just stay in the neighborhood, don't worry about insurance or working too much. Just be a kid.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Matt Molinari and Eric Schnepf, 18 year olds from New Jersey, were handing out fliers promoting their snow shoveling service when they were told by police to stop. The young entreprenuers were told that anyone selling a service door-to-door needed to apply for a license at $450,

Source: http://www.glennbeck.com/2015/01/28..._source=glennbeck&utm_medium=contentcopy_link

also, in most city's soliciting without a permit is illegal.

next,
not to pee in your cheerios but your parents will need to have a insurance policy. 
and what happens when your friend sticks is hand in the chute and looses his fingers?

How liability works in these types of situations is like this in most every state, the person who creates a hazardous condition, even on someone else's property _can_ be held liable. The homeowner (their insurance company) would most certainly bring the person who removed the snow into the situation. That is, the injured person would _claim_ that the person who moved the snow created a hazard by [insert claim of negligent action here]. In a lawsuit they would name the homeowner and the person who removed the snow, if they knew who that was (as mentioned above, if they did not know who removed the snow, the owner owners carrier would bring the that person in as a 3rd party defendant). It's _that_ person who created the hazard that caused the injury. The home owner did not ask or contract with this person to do what they did. Part of the home owners defense is actually... why is the home owner responsible when actually the "friend" created the entire situation! That is a pretty good defense as it's spot on!


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## ThatGuySnowPlow (Dec 6, 2015)

Insurance? What privately owned plow guy has insurance? Know of a few around here who only carry liability on the plow truck and have most of the casinos here as customers.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

ThatGuySnowPlow;2070765 said:


> Insurance? What privately owned plow guy has insurance? Know of a few around here who only carry liability on the plow truck and have most of the casinos here as customers.


What's a " privately owned plow guy"?


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## ThatGuySnowPlow (Dec 6, 2015)

SnoFarmer;2070770 said:


> What's a " privately owned plow guy"?


Someone who don't go out under a company name and plows for his own recruited clients.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ThatGuySnowPlow;2070776 said:


> Someone who don't go out under a company name and plows for his own recruited clients.


So....an illegal business owner?


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## ThatGuySnowPlow (Dec 6, 2015)

JMHConstruction;2070780 said:


> So....an illegal business owner?


If that's how you want to word it. Out of most the trucks around town plowing I'm almost positive that the only ones with insurance are those who plow for big corporate companies.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ThatGuySnowPlow;2070776 said:


> Someone who don't go out under a company name and plows for his own recruited clients.


Well if you can get a casino and no one to help you and does not need a GL and completed snow operations and WC and in some County's disability, Proof of dedicated equipment and at the very least a DBA or LLC you guys got it made.

The casinos around here are huge and busy day and night. What about sidewalks and salt spreading? How about a slip and fall? Something sounds a little scabby.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

So if they all jump off a bridge, are you following?

Just b/c THEY ALL DO IT don't mean it's right, legal, and safe.

Have you ever asked those plow guys if they have proper insurance btw?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ThatGuySnowPlow;2070798 said:


> If that's how you want to word it. Out of most the trucks around town plowing I'm almost positive that the only ones with insurance are those who plow for big corporate companies.


Are the casinos mom and pop and not corporations or LLC.


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## ThatGuySnowPlow (Dec 6, 2015)

FredG;2070803 said:


> Are the casinos mom and pop and not corporations or LLC.


Nope for one the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino! And we know the crew personally and they carry only insurance on there vehicle.


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## ThatGuySnowPlow (Dec 6, 2015)

FredG;2070801 said:


> Well if you can get a casino and no one to help you and does not need a GL and completed snow operations and WC and in some County's disability, Proof of dedicated equipment and at the very least a DBA or LLC you guys got it made.
> 
> The casinos around here are huge and busy day and night. What about sidewalks and salt spreading? How about a slip and fall? Something sounds a little scabby.


They run there own spreaders! It's not that uncommon around here for private drivers to get clients because of the low price offers they give. For example. a 100 car parking lot for an apartment complex and sidewalks are going for 100$ lawn service wont touch it for less than 600$ So that's how these guys get the jobs.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ThatGuySnowPlow;2070811 said:


> Nope for one the Hard Rock Hotel and Casino! And we know the crew personally and they carry only insurance on there vehicle.


Hard rock, This is a massive corporation, How did the guy not in business get past there legal department?


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## ThatGuySnowPlow (Dec 6, 2015)

FredG;2070825 said:


> Hard rock, This is a massive corporation, How did the guy not in business get past there legal department?


Low prices! Not to mention he has worked for the state for 13 years and plows state highways as well for a living.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

During the summer, to get my start building decks, I subbed for a company that told me I couldn't have lettering on my truck. I still use them rarely if times get slow. Because of this I have those magnates that I can take on and off when I'm working with them. With snow, I sub for a company doing sidewalks. I take my magnates off because I got too many calls to plow, and I don't own a plow. I only use blowers and shovels. Anyway, just because I don't have my business name and logo all over my truck doesn't mean I don't have proper insurance. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that these guys don't have insurance. I can't imagine big casinos and corporations hiring contractors without insurance.


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## Ramitt (Mar 12, 2013)

JMHConstruction;2070839 said:


> During the summer, to get my start building decks, I subbed for a company that told me I couldn't have lettering on my truck. I still use them rarely if times get slow. Because of this I have those magnates that I can take on and off when I'm working with them. With snow, I sub for a company doing sidewalks. I take my magnates off because I got too many calls to plow, and I don't own a plow. I only use blowers and shovels. Anyway, just because I don't have my business name and logo all over my truck doesn't mean I don't have proper insurance. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that these guys don't have insurance. I can't imagine big casinos and corporations hiring contractors without insurance.


Yes just because there are no names doesnt mean they dont... We dont have anything on our trucks and we do lawn maintenance for the local school district(23 locations) You better believe we have insurance on everything... A few years ago one of the guys took out an 8,000.00 window with the mower(rock shot out of the front of the mower) Then another guy took a chunk of the scalp wheel off the front on the deck didnt know it and hit it and it hit the side of a new jaguar lol So it has paid for itself many times


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## ThatGuySnowPlow (Dec 6, 2015)

JMHConstruction;2070839 said:


> During the summer, to get my start building decks, I subbed for a company that told me I couldn't have lettering on my truck. I still use them rarely if times get slow. Because of this I have those magnates that I can take on and off when I'm working with them. With snow, I sub for a company doing sidewalks. I take my magnates off because I got too many calls to plow, and I don't own a plow. I only use blowers and shovels. Anyway, just because I don't have my business name and logo all over my truck doesn't mean I don't have proper insurance. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that these guys don't have insurance. I can't imagine big casinos and corporations hiring contractors without insurance.


In some cases yes. But when you are family friends with the two guys doing the work we know the whole low down. You would be surprised at how many apartment complexes I have contacted that use a broker to hire the snow removal and not one company has asked for insurance when going in. Most jobs accepted and w9 filled out without one word on insurance coverage. Not to mention that they do there own salting..


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ThatGuySnowPlow;2070851 said:


> In some cases yes. But when you are family friends with the two guys doing the work we know the whole low down. You would be surprised at how many apartment complexes I have contacted that use a broker to hire the snow removal and not one company has asked for insurance when going in. Most jobs accepted and w9 filled out without one word on insurance coverage. Not to mention that they do there own salting..


Do you have insurance or are you using this as your excuse not to get it? Just wait until you get your first scare....


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ramitt;2070846 said:


> Yes just because there are no names doesnt mean they dont... We dont have anything on our trucks and we do lawn maintenance for the local school district(23 locations) You better believe we have insurance on everything... A few years ago one of the guys took out an 8,000.00 window with the mower(rock shot out of the front of the mower) Then another guy took a chunk of the scalp wheel off the front on the deck didnt know it and hit it and it hit the side of a new jaguar lol So it has paid for itself many times


You don't need your name on the truck if you don't have DOT numbers. Are you saying you only have insurance for incidents or cause the school district requires it.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

*DOT numbers*



FredG;2070888 said:


> You don't need your name on the truck if you don't have DOT numbers. Are you saying you only have insurance for incidents or cause the school district requires it.


In MN, if you DO have graphics on your truck, then it (regardless of weight) is a commercial vehicle (you use it to make money) and must display DOT numbers regardless if you are intra or inter state. These trucks also need a yearly inspection sticker.

If you do not have graphics and are intra state then you do not have to display DOT numbers, but are still subject to inspection,if your truck/trailer combination is >10,000#, not if under it. These trucks do not need a yearly inspection sticker.

Inter state trucks must display numbers

Another hiccup, if you operate a truck like the first example, you must have a health card as the owner/operator, and so must any employee that drives it.

As a one man operation, I don't advertise on my trucks. I try to keep my stuff in good repair, so that if/when I get inspected I may have to fix some things, but won't get an out of service flag. 25 years, never been checked. Knock on wood.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

FredG;2070888 said:


> You don't need your name on the truck if you don't have DOT numbers. Are you saying you only have insurance for incidents or cause the school district requires it.


Isn't that why we all carry it?? For incidents. Besides the requirements from the county for my contractors license and state for work comp, it's there incase something happens. Maybe I misunderstood what you asked him.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

jonniesmooth;2070931 said:


> In MN, if you DO have graphics on your truck, then it (regardless of weight) is a commercial vehicle (you use it to make money) and must display DOT numbers regardless if you are intra or inter state. These trucks also need a yearly inspection sticker.
> 
> If you do not have graphics and are intra state then you do not have to display DOT numbers, but are still subject to inspection,if your truck/trailer combination is >10,000#, not if under it. These trucks do not need a yearly inspection sticker.
> 
> ...


graphics dont have anything to do with it.
not a requirement for me to display my business name on my pickup.

Carriers are required to have their company name on each side of their truck, if the truck has a registered gross weight of more than 8,164 kg. They don't need to display their CVOR number.

A Minnesota DOT Number: You are not required to register for a MN DOT Number (MN DOT, State of MN DOT Numbers, DOT Minnesota) for a vehicle with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 10,000-lbs and under.
this is a FED Regulation...

so if i'm plowing with a 3/4 ton i dont need a dot# or a health card.

health card requirement.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=221.031

this "ThatGuySnowPlow'it just trying to stir the pot.

ok so you don't have ins, sooner or later something is going to happen, enjoy living in a slum...

and most legitimate business men with just one plow truck know it is their best interests to have the proper INS.
roll the dice, and yell craps....


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## Ramitt (Mar 12, 2013)

FredG;2070888 said:


> You don't need your name on the truck if you don't have DOT numbers. Are you saying you only have insurance for incidents or cause the school district requires it.


Well we need it for both.. Not to mention we all undergo a yearly background check and fbi child abuse check just to be on school property... We also need insurance because of being around kids and teachers/parents for most of the day... Like I said it really depends what you do... No need to start a battle over it tell the guys the dangers of not having it and leave it at that... At the end of the day it doesnt effect you.. Granted you never want to see anyone get into the sort of trouble but that was their call.. Like I said helping out close friends and family for me it doesnt pay to have it.. I would basically plowing snow just to pay insurance and with my job I work sometimes 60hours a week so I cant plow snow all day long anyway...


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Ramitt;2071028 said:


> Well we need it for both.. Not to mention we all undergo a yearly background check and fbi child abuse check just to be on school property... We also need insurance because of being around kids and teachers/parents for most of the day... Like I said it really depends what you do... No need to start a battle over it tell the guys the dangers of not having it and leave it at that... At the end of the day it doesnt effect you.. Granted you never want to see anyone get into the sort of trouble but that was their call.
> I would basically plowing snow just to pay insurance and with my job I work sometimes 60hours a week so I cant plow snow all day long anyway...


well what is it?
one sentience you say

"We also need insurance because of being around kids and teachers/parents for most of the day..."

". Like I said helping out close friends and family for me it doesnt pay to have it.. "

but then it also sounds like your an employee.

" Like I said it really depends what you do"
if you plow for compensation you need coverage.


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## ThatGuySnowPlow (Dec 6, 2015)

JMHConstruction;2070876 said:


> Do you have insurance or are you using this as your excuse not to get it? Just wait until you get your first scare....


I have state-farm for my insurance but haven't heard of GL till now on this site.


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## Ramitt (Mar 12, 2013)

SnoFarmer;2071046 said:


> well what is it?
> one sentience you say
> 
> "We also need insurance because of being around kids and teachers/parents for most of the day..."
> ...


For my job as a foreman for my company we have insurance.. We only do lawn maintenance/general landscaping duties, We arent contracted to plow for the school, their maintenance men do that.. Winter time for us 5 guys(the other 10 get laid off) We do have our plate full with taking care of our 2 cemeteries maintenance and funeral duties.... for me personally plowing its just me and my truck helping family and friends. I dont have it

Me plowing is done on my own personal time..


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Well that explains it .


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

A buddy and I shoveled and used his snowblower since we were like 10. We walked around our neighborhood with shovels and his Yamaha blower. When I got my license at 16 and first truck (see avatar), I plowed the same driveways and expanded around town. My buddy lost interest by then. The truck and comm vehicle insurance was in my dads name. At 18, I put the truck and insurance in my name. I'll admit I did not have general liability then. I doubt I would have if I had even know about GL then.

Don't offer ice control. Just move the snow well and you're done.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jonniesmooth;2070931 said:


> In MN, if you DO have graphics on your truck, then it (regardless of weight) is a commercial vehicle (you use it to make money) and must display DOT numbers regardless if you are intra or inter state. These trucks also need a yearly inspection sticker.
> 
> If you do not have graphics and are intra state then you do not have to display DOT numbers, but are still subject to inspection,if your truck/trailer combination is >10,000#, not if under it. These trucks do not need a yearly inspection sticker.
> 
> ...


This been discussed may times and am aware of dot regulations and the heath card. This discussion is off topic. I thought we were discussing liability's.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction;2070974 said:


> Isn't that why we all carry it?? For incidents. Besides the requirements from the county for my contractors license and state for work comp, it's there incase something happens. Maybe I misunderstood what you asked him.


There is more to liability's than incident related. City, state, county, corporations or LLC this is a requirement to perform your service. If you don't have it I highly doubt you are working on any hard rock property's. I don't care who you know or if you been plowing highways for only 13 years.

When you get off topic with company logo's on your truck and dot#'s that we are all aware of and been discussed many times this is what happens.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

FredG;2071211 said:


> This been discussed may times and am aware of dot regulations and the heath card. This discussion is off topic. I thought we were discussing liability's.


No we were actually discussing some kids shoveling a driveway. I'd let my own kids go out and shovel for cash and worry about the liability another day. Kids need to get a taste of hard work and reward when they're young and that will drive them to succeed in life. I wish some kids would stop in at my house, I'd gladly pay them to shovel my walks and driveway.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ThatGuySnowPlow;2071051 said:


> I have state-farm for my insurance but haven't heard of GL till now on this site.


This is what your buddy that is plowing these hard rocks failed to explain to you. Cause I'm 99% sure he is not plowing snow without GL, Completed snow and workman's comp.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JD Dave;2071218 said:


> No we were actually discussing some kids shoveling a driveway. I'd let my own kids go out and shovel for cash and worry about the liability another day. Kids need to get a taste of hard work and reward when they're young and that will drive them to succeed in life. I wish some kids would stop in at my house, I'd gladly pay them to shovel my walks and driveway.


Really, Thanks for proving my point!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JD Dave;2071218 said:


> No we were actually discussing some kids shoveling a driveway. I'd let my own kids go out and shovel for cash and worry about the liability another day. Kids need to get a taste of hard work and reward when they're young and that will drive them to succeed in life. I wish some kids would stop in at my house, I'd gladly pay them to shovel my walks and driveway.


JD Dave, My apologies I guess the threads went in different directions. You are right I am wrong.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Fred you're right. We're all off topic. I shouldn't have responded to whoever started off topic. Just trying to explain that not everyone who drives a truck that looks like "some guy" doesn't have insurance.

OP, get a blower when you can afford it. Don't get in over your head too quick. Stick with a shovel until you get enough jobs that a blower will be worth while.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction;2071250 said:


> Fred you're right. We're all off topic. I shouldn't have responded to whoever started off topic. Just trying to explain that not everyone who drives a truck that looks like "some guy" doesn't have insurance.
> 
> OP, get a blower when you can afford it. Don't get in over your head too quick. Stick with a shovel until you get enough jobs that a blower will be worth while.


I'm cool, We got off topic. Who really cares I don't. You know when a young guy comes up with a post liability's will come up. There is 50k Sw jobs out there and will need proper liability's or your out of it.

As far as a young guy wanting to shovel sidewalks drives I'm all for it as long is its by hand. Where are they anyways? My wife wants to hire a young man. By the time I get to it I'm sick of plowing or to lazy. Of course I handle it but would welcome a young man. A kid and a dependable buddy can make a few bucks. You can do more of them with a dedicated buddy and come out better at the end of the day.

OP go for it, Stay small for cash, Not trying to turn you into a tax crook and move slowly you got time. Shovel guys with heart are hard to find and make good money.


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## OneBadDodge06 (Sep 22, 2004)

I personally don't see a reason needing insurance to scoop or blow driveways and sidewalks. Pay attention to where the shoot is blowing to; away from windows, and go make some cash. Most 15 year olds have zero desire to try and make money and there's nothing wrong with busting your backside to make money. My two cents.


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