# Anyone else seeing "FLAT RATE" bidding ?



## millsaps118

I put in 5 new bids about 2 months ago and just last week I found out I went 0-5!!!! These were comm'l lots ranging 1.75ac-5ac.

I submit my bids with 2 options. 

1) Per Event Rates (1.5"-3", 3.1"-6.0", etc....) Everything else is additional/ala carte 

2) All Inclusive Flat Monthly Rate (Curb to Curb, Open up, Next day Clean up, salt) with a 1.5" trigger and a 55" seasonal cap.

I lost all 5 jobs to 5 different contractors who all submitted "Flat Rate" prices. Meaning, if it snowed 3" the price was $300 or if we got 12" the price was still $300.

My Per Event price on one job that was a little over 2 acres was $355 for 3", and it went up from there. The guy I lost it to, bid it Flat Rate @ $300!

Is it just my luck that I was up against 5 different contractors who all bid these jobs the same or is this the new trend in bidding snow????????


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## cretebaby

I have alway bid flat rate. I can't stand incramental pricing.


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## 2COR517

cretebaby;833661 said:


> I have alway bid flat rate. I can't stand incramental pricing.


Same here. Who decides if it's 5.9 or 6 inches? My per push customers are pretty good. If we get walloped, like a foot or more, or a long drawn out daytime storm, I might charge extra. Two visits charge 1.5. Three visits, charge 2.

I like seasonals the best. Just keep it clean.


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## cubicinches

2COR517;833671 said:


> Who decides if it's 5.9 or 6 inches?


That is exactly why we bid all of our stuff flat rate as well. We've never done it any other way, and have never had a customer ask for incremental pricing.


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## 2COR517

At the end of the year, you'll have a couple of 2 inch storms offsetting a couple of 10 inch storms. It all evens out by April. Or May if you're Alaska Boss.


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## millsaps118

2COR517;833671 said:


> Same here. * Who decides if it's 5.9 or 6 inches*? If we get walloped, like a foot or more, or a long drawn out daytime storm, I might charge extra. Two visits charge 1.5. Three visits, charge 2.
> 
> I like seasonals the best. Just keep it clean.


Your suppose to decide if it's 5.9 or 6. I carry a tape right inside the driver side door pocket and measure from 3 random areas then take the avg. and that's how I determine if it's 5.9" or 6" and charge accordingly.

So now I see where you flat rate guys make up ur $$ _*.... "If we get walloped, like a foot or more, or a long drawn out daytime storm, I might charge extra. Two visits charge 1.5. Three visits, charge 2." *_

I agree with your last reply, seasonal is, IMHO, the fairest way to bid.


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## Camden

millsaps - Flat rate pricing is par for the course up here. People seem to want simple pricing that's easy for them to understand.


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## big acres

I guess if you really know your weather history... seems like a gamble to me. I've bid against a couple here, but don't see it too often.

If we get 15 events per year and 48" of snow average, what's to say it doesn't come in a few bigger snowfalls?

You could have 8 x 6" at $300 = $2400

OR

12 x 4" at $300 = $3600

Same amount of seasonal snow, but numbers are quite a bit different.

I'm sure the idea sells well, so good luck, but the incremental mirrors actual hours on site better and IMO is fairer to both you and the customer -still giving them some solid numbers, but paying you more for bigger jobs.

Not saying it doesn't usually come out in the wash... just a preference I guess.


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## 2COR517

I think it's somewhat localized too. Around here people are just used to doing it that way.


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## cubicinches

Camden;833693 said:


> millsaps - Flat rate pricing is par for the course up here. People seem to want simple pricing that's easy for them to understand.


It's the norm around here too. I want pricing that's easy for ME to understand as well. We're too busy plowing to be measuring. I can't imagine the amount of customer disputes that could arise from all of that.


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## millsaps118

I have always been an incremental bidder or seasonal rate. I have always felt that I would be loosing my shirt if I started bidding flat rate. I just can't see how profitable it can be to bid a lot that would take 1 hr @ 3" and charge X and then plow the same lot @ 9" and still charge X but takes me 2.5-3x as long.


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## cubicinches

millsaps118;833707 said:


> I have always been an incremental bidder or seasonal rate. I have always felt that I would be loosing my shirt if I started bidding flat rate. I just can't see how profitable it can be to bid a lot that would take 1 hr @ 3" and charge X and then plow the same lot @ 9" and still charge X but takes me 2.5-3x as long.


It's easy... charge the 9" rate all of the time. Now look at the money you make when it's 3"
payup


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## doo-man

Yeah lost couple today to flat rate bids and another to hourly rate! Funny part was the customer said it should only take 20 min so if he was charging 60per hour that would only cost them 20 dollars!!!! I measured the lot at just over 30,000sqft Some people like to work for free or beer money but not me !!!!


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## cretebaby

big acres;833701 said:


> I guess if you really know your weather history... seems like a gamble to me. I've bid against a couple here, but don't see it too often.
> 
> If we get 15 events per year and 48" of snow average, what's to say it doesn't come in a few bigger snowfalls?
> 
> You could have 8 x 6" at $300 = $2400
> 
> OR
> 
> 12 x 4" at $300 = $3600
> 
> Same amount of seasonal snow, but numbers are quite a bit different.
> 
> 
> 
> cubicinches;833706 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's the norm around here too. I want pricing that's easy for ME to understand as well. We're too busy plowing to be measuring. I can't imagine the amount of customer disputes that could arise from all of that.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly
> 
> I'm sure the idea sells well, so good luck, but the incremental mirrors actual hours on site better and IMO is fairer to both you and the customer -still giving them some solid numbers, but paying you more for bigger jobs.
> 
> Not saying it doesn't usually come out in the wash... just a preference I guess.
Click to expand...

6'' snows are 2 pushes no matter what.


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## millsaps118

Camden;833693 said:


> millsaps - Flat rate pricing is par for the course up here. People seem to want simple pricing that's easy for them to understand.


I'll agree with that but, how hard is it to understand,

2"-3"= $100
4"-5"= $150
6"-7"= $200

etc.etc..... 90% of my snow contracts are like that and I have yet to hear a dispute about charging a customer on how much snow I plowed during a snow event.


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## cretebaby

doo-man;833714 said:


> Yeah lost couple today to flat rate bids and another to hourly rate! Funny part was the customer said it should only take 20 min so if he was charging 60per hour that would only cost them 20 dollars!!!! I measured the lot at just over 30,000sqft Some people like to work for free or beer money but not me !!!!


Don't you think he is going to charge a one hour min?


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## millsaps118

cretebaby;833720 said:


> 6'' snows are 2 pushes no matter what.


So...correct me if I'm wrong, I might not be reading you right. Your saying that you would charge 2 times for a 6" snow event? If so, that wouldn't be flat rate pricing. That would be slipping one under the table on 'em.

I can see way more of a dispute from a customer with this then if there was 5.9" and they got charged for 6".


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## 2COR517

millsaps118;833707 said:


> I have always been an incremental bidder or seasonal rate. I have always felt that I would be loosing my shirt if I started bidding flat rate. I just can't see how profitable it can be to bid a lot that would take 1 hr @ 3" and charge X and then plow the same lot @ 9" and still charge X but takes me 2.5-3x as long.


It would take me longer to move 9" vs 3", but it wouldn't be three times as long. I don't think it would even be twice as long. Depends on the account to. Bigger snows have more impact on parking area than a road/drive.


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## wizardsr

Keith, I haven't seen it on commercial yet this year... Dunno... We do flat rate on residential, but that's so it's easier for the little old ladies to understand... On commercial, we go with 1.5-5 and 5-8, makes it easier than the 1.5-4, 4-6, 6-8 that we used to do. Seems like 90% of the events we get here are under 5", so the only challenge has been getting the customer to understand why my 1.5-5 is a little higher than the next guy's 1.5-4... I may be forced to go back to smaller increments next year to stay competitive though, way too many customers only look at that first number... Sorry to hear about your strike out, seems to be the norm this year. I don't know who the heck is getting all the work, but it hasn't been me or anyone I know around here...


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## doo-man

You would think but the customer told me today that info! I was asked to bid it per push by the inch's incriments and this guy goes in and bids by the hour! WTF I am sick of this crap 


cretebaby;833730 said:


> Don't you think he is going to charge a one hour min?


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## Peterbilt

I also go with a flat rate, with either a discounted follow-up fee, or follow by the hour fee.

I go into the season with the understanding that if there is un-plowed snow in your parking lot, I am going to plow it for X amount. If it continues to snow, I will return to plow it again for a discounted price per follow up. It doesn't matter if there is 1 inch or 20. We will plow till the lot is clear.

I will also charge a follow up if I have to make a return trip to clean where parked cars were, or for drifting. 

I added the Hourly follow up rate Just for the stupid little follow ups and or false alarms that we might get called out for. Or where a full follow up isn't needed.

J.


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## cretebaby

millsaps118;833749 said:


> So...correct me if I'm wrong, I might not be reading you right. Your saying that you would charge 2 times for a 6" snow event? If so, that wouldn't be flat rate pricing. That would be slipping one under the table on 'em.
> 
> I can see way more of a dispute from a customer with this then if there was 5.9" and they got charged for 6".


No it isn't slipping anything under the table.

I don't plow anything that would allow 6" to build up. Like I said a 6'' storm is 2 pushes, that means it gets pushed twice.


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## millsaps118

wizardsr;833751 said:


> I don't know who the heck is getting all the work, but it hasn't been me or anyone I know around here...


That's for [email protected] sure.....


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## Metro Lawn

We bid per push at 2-4, 4-8, 8-12, over 12. Thing is we offer a 1 or 2" trigger. If they take a 2" trigger and we get 6 inches, they are getting 3 pushes at the 2-4" rate. Generally we will only push it twice to save them some money, but that has worked well for 24 years now.


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## millsaps118

cretebaby;833762 said:


> No it isn't slipping anything under the table.
> 
> I don't plow anything that would allow 6" to build up. Like I said a 6'' storm is 2 pushes, that means it gets pushed twice.


Here's my experience with this a few years back. I did it (the same way you do) like this one season. I plowed with a good storm so it wouldn't accumulate past 6" and get all drifted and deep. This snow event lasted over 8 hrs and at times was pounding down. I ended up billing for 3 pushes for this one storm. When the customers received their bills they all called *****ing about "Ohhh you charged me for 3 plows and we only had 1 storm, I should have only been charged one time".

I explain to them exactly what you just mentioned and they all tell me, BS. They say I should have waited until the storm ended and did 1 complete clearing and charged for 1 plow.

After that year I never, ever, wanted to do flat rate bidding.


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## millsaps118

Metro Lawn;833787 said:


> We bid per push at 2-4, 4-8, 8-12, over 12. Thing is we offer a 1 or 2" trigger. If they take a 2" trigger and we get 6 inches, they are getting 3 pushes at the 2-4" rate. Generally we will only push it twice to save them some money, but that has worked well for 24 years now.


I did it like that in the past too and only my Residential customers figured out what I was doing, or should I say questioned what I was doing. That was the last year I dropped 95% of my rezey's and focused on comm'l.


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## lawnkale

i bid per push when i make the decision on when to start plowing, I will never let more than 4" of snow sit on a parking lot. I start plowing at 1.5" if it is still snowing they get plowed again, and again till it stops snowing. so i dont have to worry about how many inches are there. I do have one customer that calls me out before i can start. If its more that 5" they get charged time and half. Doesnt matter to me. My payloader goes right thru 5" like nothing.


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## Metro Lawn

lawnkale;833814 said:


> If its more that 5" they get charged time and half. Doesnt matter to me. My payloader goes right thru 5" like nothing.


My little truck pushes that stuff good as well.


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## millsaps118

2COR517;833750 said:


> It would take me longer to move 9" vs 3", but it wouldn't be three times as long. I don't think it would even be twice as long. Depends on the account to. Bigger snows have more impact on parking area than a road/drive.


That's all fine and dandy if your plowing 50' driveways. But if your in a parking lot with 300' runs, I guarantee you, your times could easily double, may-be even triple, going from 3" to 9".

Not to mention the wear and tear on your truck/plow increase two fold as well as fuel usage.


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## badabing1512

All seasonal here.


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## big acres

millsaps118;833749 said:


> So...correct me if I'm wrong, I might not be reading you right. Your saying that you would charge 2 times for a 6" snow event? If so, that wouldn't be flat rate pricing. That would be slipping one under the table on 'em.
> 
> I can see way more of a dispute from a customer with this then if there was 5.9" and they got charged for 6".


Good conversation... I think it comes down to location. To some, trigger means you go out when it hits 1.5, to most here in the Twin Cities, it means you plow any storm over that one time before agreed deadline.

Anything in between is an agreed open-up price or t&m, where other might bill for 1.5 or 2 plows.

PS. Millsaps... we do the same 3 measurement average and have never had only a couple disputes on depth... with a little homework, we were able to back up our measurements. Mostly folks who don't realize it can vary by several inches over just a couple miles sometimes.


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## Grampa Plow

I go flat rate with a extra fee if over 5 inches. We also tell them if over 9" is predicted, we'll be doing it twice. I have only hasomeone complain once or twice in 2 decades!


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## big acres

Grampa Plow;833879 said:


> I go flat rate with a extra fee if over 5 inches. We also tell them if over 9" is predicted, we'll be doing it twice. I have only hasomeone complain once or twice in 2 decades!


Sells like flat rate... but really incremental pricing... I like it.


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## RepoMan207

I give my customers 3 options. 

1. Storm total pricing broke down into 2" increments...irregardless of how many times I push it.

2. Seasonal with a 10" cap per event ,with a fee for every 2" over & above.

3. seasonal with NO restrictions.

The majority of my contracts are on option 2.


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## Brian Young

cretebaby;833661 said:


> I have alway bid flat rate. I can't stand incramental pricing.


Dido here! Honestly who wants to see all those number's. If I was a property manager, I wouldn't want to sit down and go over 5 bids and tons of number's. I would just want to see what the heck its going to cost me to have my lot plowed. Doesn't matter if its 2" or 6", if the trigger is 2 inches and you wait til' there's 6 inches of snow to plow it shame on you. If its a 2 inch trigger and its snowing 2 inches an hour and you plow it 3 times during that storm then it is what it is and bill for 3 pushes. K.I.S.S. If your plowing price is based of a 2-3" trigger and it snows 10"....A) who is really going to let the lot accum. to 10" before plowing it? B) I find it hard to believe any customer in their right mind would question a bill with additional plows on there if the above stated happen. Just my 2 cents. The thing I hate is when its snowing like hell and we plowed the lot by 530 am and they get there to open the store at 7am and they call to say we were never there.


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## LoneCowboy

cretebaby;833762 said:


> No it isn't slipping anything under the table.
> 
> I don't plow anything that would allow 6" to build up. Like I said a 6'' storm is 2 pushes, that means it gets pushed twice.


Well, I don't know how it snows where you are, but here it can snow 4-6 inches in an hour.

You simply can't keep up. Sometimes it snows so hard, so fast that you're done with the lot and you have to start over, there's already two inches on the other side.

6 to 8 hour route, there is simply going to be more than 6 inches sitting on the lot and there's not a dang thing you can do about it.


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## terrapro

That "evens out" motto is bull in my opinion, same with seasonals. Someone is always getting it in the end. To bad that is what sells sometimes. 

I prefer to paid and bill for the work I do and only the work I do. Incremental is the only way no one gets screwed in the end. ex. 0-6" $100 and every 3" afterward is 50% extra so that makes it 6-9" $150 and 9-12" $200. If it doubles my work load and wear and tear then I double my price.

I rarely charge the extra for drives unless its like 12"+ or those 8" wet snows that are actually 14"... :crying:


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## NoFearDeere

I do incremental pricing for commercial up to 8 inches, anything over that is per hour, per piece of equipment, residential is per push. Works ok but I have alot of competition in a smaller town of 30,000 so prices are getting drove down not up.


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## big acres

Brian Young;833967 said:


> Dido here! Honestly who wants to see all those number's. If I was a property manager, I wouldn't want to sit down and go over 5 bids and tons of number's. I would just want to see what the heck its going to cost me to have my lot plowed. Doesn't matter if its 2" or 6", if the trigger is 2 inches and you wait til' there's 6 inches of snow to plow it shame on you. If its a 2 inch trigger and its snowing 2 inches an hour and you plow it 3 times during that storm then it is what it is and bill for 3 pushes. K.I.S.S. If your plowing price is based of a 2-3" trigger and it snows 10"....A) who is really going to let the lot accum. to 10" before plowing it? B) I find it hard to believe any customer in their right mind would question a bill with additional plows on there if the above stated happen. Just my 2 cents. The thing I hate is when its snowing like hell and we plowed the lot by 530 am and they get there to open the store at 7am and they call to say we were never there.


Managers here would cr*p a brick if we billed 2 or 3 full pushes on a six or even eight inch snowfall. It seems like the "open-up" concept isn't used in many areas. We don't let it build to eight inches, but try to be there every three or four... moving bulk and opening drivelanes and charging a reduced rate or t&m. Nothing fancy, we come back for the final curb to curb when the storm is done or by deadline.

So on a six inch snowfall, we'd likely bill for an open-up (1/3 - 1/2 a full push) and a full push.


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## forestfireguy

Guys I think we are discussing two very different things here. Flat rate is not the same as per push. Per push you get the same money each time you show up to push, whether it's 1" or 5". This flate rate thing is new to me but as I understand it, it's kinda stupid. Why would you ever push 9" at the same price you'd do 3" I can see per push, since thats 3 visits, each with a seperate charge. Personally I do seasonal and Incremental brackets. And as to who decides whether it was .9 or 1.1 inches get a weather service, not THAT expensive and WILL most often settle diputes before they start. After the storm you get a map that says this area got X amount of snow. It sets a standard, and to your client it's not you just saying so or feeling like you wanted an extra coupe hundred that storm. We bill everything off of the weather service maps, which we crosscheck with a couple other sources for actual totals, and most often they are either dead on or very very close, thus it's fair and independent, you can't ask for more.


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## wizardsr

forestfireguy;834151 said:


> Guys I think we are discussing two very different things here. Flat rate is not the same as per push. Per push you get the same money each time you show up to push, whether it's 1" or 5". This flate rate thing is new to me but as I understand it, it's kinda stupid. Why would you ever push 9" at the same price you'd do 3" I can see per push, since thats 3 visits, each with a seperate charge. Personally I do seasonal and Incremental brackets. And as to who decides whether it was .9 or 1.1 inches get a weather service, not THAT expensive and WILL most often settle diputes before they start. After the storm you get a map that says this area got X amount of snow. It sets a standard, and to your client it's not you just saying so or feeling like you wanted an extra coupe hundred that storm. We bill everything off of the weather service maps, which we crosscheck with a couple other sources for actual totals, and most often they are either dead on or very very close, thus it's fair and independent, you can't ask for more.


Maybe your area is different, but here, there can be a difference of several inches from one end of town to the other. Some storms can have a very sharp cut off, and the difference of 5 miles can mean 5" or 1". I would never ever rely on the media for my measurements. Each crew/driver carries a yardstick and sticks it at every site. If the customer can't trust your ability to measure snow, you've got bigger problems to work on.

Big Acres, we've been doing the "open" concept for over 10 years, and the customers really seem to like it, it works out well. Wouldn't make sense to do a full push at 3" on a 5" storm, I can see why guys that do this have complaints, the customer feels like they're getting taken.


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## cretebaby

I got a couple questions.

What kind of lots are you guys doing that an accumulation of 4+ inches is acceptable?

How often do you actually see 6"+ in one storm? (Based on real weather records not just perceived)

We only average one 6"+ event a year.


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## Camden

cretebaby;834940 said:


> What kind of lots are you guys doing that an accumulation of 4+ inches is acceptable?


Church, funeral home, plastic molding company, apartment complex...

Obviously banks and medical clinics don't allow it but there are plenty that do.


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## cubicinches

cretebaby;834940 said:


> I got a couple questions.
> 
> What kind of lots are you guys doing that an accumulation of 4+ inches is acceptable?
> 
> How often do you actually see 6"+ in one storm? (Based on real weather records not just perceived)
> 
> We only average one 6"+ event a year.


We have only a couple that will allow 4+ inches... but we'd better be on our way soon, or we'll be hearing about it. But I agree, most of them won't tolerate it. And, geez, we have more storms that are 6 inches plus, than we do ones that aren't.


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## dfdsuperduty

NoFearDeere;834036 said:


> I do incremental pricing for commercial up to 8 inches, anything over that is per hour, per piece of equipment, residential is per push. Works ok but I have alot of competition in a smaller town of 30,000 so prices are getting drove down not up.


I either bid the same or a flat rate for the month I have also offered the option this year to pay once a month for 12 months it does cost a little more but i have found that several larger prop. mgmt companies like this. I was told by one manager that it is much easier for him to budget everything and know what his end of the month cost are going to be and by spreading it out helps him out as well. This option does carry a little higher price but it is all about convenience for the customer and before anyone says "good luck collecting in june" this is why we have a either a voided company check or credit card on file for them so we do the billing the 1st of every month works out nice


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## palmtree907

My contracts are all per push. Below is an excerpt from my contract for this season. I do modify it sometimes if clients want something different, but I don't deviate too far from it. It has worked well for me for 5 seasons. let me know what you think.



The Price for the above listed properties is per trip for a total of $XX .

This bid is for snow removal of parking areas only. It does not include shoveling sidewalks, sanding, ice chipping/removal, hand shoveling around any obstacles, removal of snow from structures or sweeping. Nor does this bid cover removal of snow from the premises should the areas provided for storage of the snow become full.
Services will be provided automatically when 3” of snowfall is received, and all properties will be completed no later than 6 hours after snowfall ends. If a continuous snowfall (with 6” or more) is received, properties will be plowed twice per 24 hour period (calendar day) with each trip being a separate billing event. Billing is done on a (calendar) monthly basis and all invoices are due upon receipt unless other arrangements are made in writing.
Property managers will be notified when the lot will be plowed so that tenants can move vehicles, however, should a vehicle remain in the way, it will be plowed around. If required, arrangements can be made to come back, but additional charges will apply.
This proposal, if it is accepted, shall be effective as of the date it is signed, through March 31, 2010. It may be cancelled at any time by either party with no penalty.


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## big acres

palmtree907;835016 said:


> It may be cancelled at any time by either party with no penalty.


Looked good until the above... shouldn't you at least request a 30 day notice to get out of your agreement without cause? Seems like this might allow someone to switch on a whim, or say "go ahead" to anyone asks if they can plow for beer money.


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## RepoMan207

Here is what I use in respect to cancellation:



> Provision for Default and Cancellation: Either party may terminate this agreement at any
> time with a 10 day advance written notice. Cancellation date will be the day such notice is
> received. In the event of cancellation, the customer will be responsible for all costs of services
> rendered up to the cancellation date. A final invoice will be sent to the customer within
> 30 days after notification for balance due. There will be No Refunds issued for unused time
> or services set forth by this agreement, without limitations to "seasonal Quotes".


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## palmtree907

I am a Realtor by day, and 99% of my plow business is from other Realtors who need their listings, rentals, etc. taken care of. 5 years and I haven't had anyone cancel and this year I am thinking about taking a commercial contract just to delve into it and see if I should push it. Having said that, I do like the way Repoman worded his provision.


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## RepoMan207

Thanks Todd, I can't take complete credit on that one. Last year sometime there was a push on contract threads, I went around an pieced together about 50 contracts into one, then revised it into something of my own.

Speaking of which, if anyone needs a copy again this year, PM me for custom entries.

View attachment Example.pdf


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## Rc2505

Around here everything is priced incremental. I just got my first call today in 17 years of plowing to bid a lot seasonal. I gave them a seasonal price with maximums built in for both number of pushes as well as totals for salt with additional pricing for anything that goes over the max number, and the customer loved the idea. So needless to say I just got my first modified seasonal contract ever.


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## big acres

Rc2505;835966 said:


> Around here everything is priced incremental. I just got my first call today in 17 years of plowing to bid a lot seasonal. I gave them a seasonal price with maximums built in for both number of pushes as well as totals for salt with additional pricing for anything that goes over the max number, and the customer loved the idea. So needless to say I just got my first modified seasonal contract ever.


well done with the maximums. could be on to a new trend in your area.


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## timberseal

I guess I'm the rare cat here  We bid everything hourly with a minimum per visit. This has always worked out well, my customers seem to like it and it keeps us paid well for the visit regardless of how little time we may be there. We bill all of our salt by the lb too


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## moosehead

Im in boston i dont have as much snow as you maniacs but when im giving new commercvial customers bids ill tell them im going to include both a seasonal rate and by the inch rate

deciding 5.9" and 6.0 will never happen and ive never heard of anyone getting out the truck to measure the snow just pick one of the news stations and stick to it. All my bids are like this for residential homes

3-5 $50
6-8 75
9-11 100
12-14 125
15-17 150
18+ 175+

If im bidding commercial properties i always gear towards seasonal. Its the best way to go in my opinion. One question though. I picked up 2 parking lots this year that do car rentals that are open everyday till 8pm. So i included this in the contract

"All parking areas will be plowed. For every snow accumulation of 2" or more. The location will be plowed and clear for the traffic befoore 7am each day . Each location will likely require a visit to open up the property and clear any obstructed areas after parked cars/equipment has been moved"

Obviously if its a 3 or 4 or 5 inch storm i can do it in one whack but should i charge double considering its pretty much double the work?? what do you guys think. Contract is about 35k. That includes one application of salt/sand mix per each storm. NO SHOVELING, NO WALKWAYS

Thanks


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## lawnproslawncar

I went flat rate with one condo association last year per there wishes...It worked, but too much of a measuring hassle and then there is one guy who has to second guess claiming he was measuring too.

TOOO much of a hassle


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## 2COR517

lawnproslawncar;851694 said:


> I went flat rate with one condo association last year per there wishes...It worked, but too much of a measuring hassle and then there is one guy who has to second guess claiming he was measuring too.
> 
> TOOO much of a hassle


"flat" rate is supposed to eliminate the measuring stick nonsense.


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## RepoMan207

2COR517;851852 said:


> "flat" rate is supposed to eliminate the measuring stick nonsense.


I was just reading that and thinking the same thing.

I typically can get a number in my head just by viewing the property, then I dissect it with math an reasoning. Granted I have been stumped a few times and had to take a different approach, but for the most part my gut and experience take over. Unfortunetly I am just getting into ice managment, so it takes a bit longer on that end of things.


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## 2COR517

What did you end up with for a spreader? XLS ready to go?


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## RepoMan207

XLS is ready to go....all paid for and waiting for me to pick it up. I even got the wiring all done on the truck last weekend. I'm heading up to Ft. Fairfield this weekend, so it will have to wait for another week...unless mother nature makes me take a midnight stroll to NH to pick it up. 

I am flying by the seat of my pants on the spreader. It all depends on what comes back for contracts in the next couple weeks, or before the snow fly's. I have a new Poly Caster and Speed Caster on hold for me. People are really putting the screws to me this year as far getting there contracts signed. Problem is the majority of my contracts are seasonal, and the way I have my contracts written "Payment due at time of signing"......I wasn't thinking when I wrote it. I'll put due dates on them next year as I write them, especially were I am getting into the salting. I have a sneaking suspicion I will be going with a tailgate spreader though.


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## big acres

wizardsr;834161Big Acres said:


> Wizard -seems like open up plus incremental is the norm here. I did come up against some concrete company bidding flat rate this year. For the guys that are billing 1.5 plows for a longer event... it is the same as incremental. I get it, but at the same time I don't. We used to do this many years ago for resi, and had to constantly explain it.
> 
> I bid for a national who wanted "per-push" at 1.5". I tried to get them to put in writing that we would plow at EACH 1.5 inches and bill the flat rate... they wouldn't. I got the feeling they were trying to trick people into bidding the 1.5-3" rate for a whole event, no matter how deep.


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## plowguy43

moosehead;851665 said:


> Im in boston i dont have as much snow as you maniacs but when im giving new commercvial customers bids ill tell them im going to include both a seasonal rate and by the inch rate
> 
> deciding 5.9" and 6.0 will never happen and ive never heard of anyone getting out the truck to measure the snow just pick one of the news stations and stick to it. All my bids are like this for residential homes
> 
> 3-5 $50
> 6-8 75
> 9-11 100
> 12-14 125
> 15-17 150
> 18+ 175+
> 
> If im bidding commercial properties i always gear towards seasonal. Its the best way to go in my opinion. One question though. I picked up 2 parking lots this year that do car rentals that are open everyday till 8pm. So i included this in the contract
> 
> "All parking areas will be plowed. For every snow accumulation of 2" or more. The location will be plowed and clear for the traffic befoore 7am each day . Each location will likely require a visit to open up the property and clear any obstructed areas after parked cars/equipment has been moved"
> 
> Obviously if its a 3 or 4 or 5 inch storm i can do it in one whack but should i charge double considering its pretty much double the work?? what do you guys think. Contract is about 35k. That includes one application of salt/sand mix per each storm. NO SHOVELING, NO WALKWAYS
> 
> Thanks


Just wanted to give you a heads up about a Rental Car Company- it will be a headache for you ( I worked for one last winter). About 9.5 times out of 10 the lot was full of rental cars because the customers returned them the moment they heard about snow. Second- the plow guy would plow what he could at night then return during the day after we moved the cars. Problem is we rarely had the time or space to move all of the cars- the plow guy would spend about an hour waiting for us to move the cars as he plowed. If he didn't wait, then we'd move the cars but then the clean off snow would be all over the spots he had plowed. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you can make a ton of money off of these lots since you have to come back so much, but figured I'd give you a quick idea of what is involved. This was a local branch I worked at, not an airport location.


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## Neige

We have always charged seasonal. 1 inch trigger, the clients can budget for his season and so can we. We average 90 inches a year, it can go 20 inches either way, but 90 is pretty dead on. Our average is around 18 events and the inches are all over the place.
Most clients are happy with a small winter, less mess with more people shopping. They really look at it as an insurance, if it snows it will be taken care of. They treat it like a cost to do business. I rarely hear a commercial client ***** that we did not get enough snow, except for the ski shops. We bill them every month, with no hassels its a real KISS.

As for the resi, lots of *****ing if we get a small winter, but offer them a per push & wham they want to sign up seasonal. It all works out in the end, people prefer to know what its going to cost and not gamble.


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## moosehead

plow guy

trust me i know it sucks. They clean all the windows off and all the stuff goes over theplace and its so annoying. I yell at the guys "clean the windows off before i come"

So now i call the locatins when im an hour away and make them start moving cars around and cleaning them off. Then when i get there i clean up what i can and if i gotta come back i gotta come back its still wellll worth the dough.


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## overtime

Past 2 years I have done some hourly but this year i am going all flate rate. There where couple from other years that i did this with. But now all then are. My flate rate is good for up to 6 inchs anything after that i charge $25 More.


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## Bajak

Aside from seasonal flat rate per push is better for most customers IMO. I can't be bothered keeping track of how much snow there is/was and the customer can just count how many times I was there and know what to expect when the invoice comes in with no surprises. On the same event one lot may only have an average of 2" and directly across the street the lot has 3 foot drifts. Some times it takes 30 seconds to clear it out, sometimes it takes a minute and a half. Average it out.


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## Plowtoy

I do everything on a per visit rate and just keep my trigger low, so what if i plow in circles all day. The only time that i may bid hourly is if its a new large account, and thats only the first season, than its per visit


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