# 2 ton truck advice wanted



## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

evening guys,
looking at possibly buying a big dump truck but don't know much about them. i guess i would like 4 wheel disc brakes and auto trans, diesel engine other than that i don't know what to consider or why the things listed might be a bad idea...can any of you who own big dumps help out? i'd be looking at used ones and don't know the cut off years when auto's or 4 whl disc brakes may have started so they may wind up being out of my price range anyway,
tia,
steve


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

Whats your budget?


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

why an auto?


and what do you mean by 2 ton?
like a F450/F550 style truck?

and yeah, what's your budget?

and what are you doing with it?


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

an auto for possibly plowing but mostly hauling skid loaders and track hoe, and material, keep from guys burning up clutches..i guess what i'm calling a 2 ton truck would be something like a ford f-700...budget would be up to about 18000.00


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

you can change alot of clutches for the price of an auto. on bigger trucks they run drum brakes all the way around ( at least if you have air)


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

here is one i looked at 98 c7500 , cat motor, 6 speed manual, 4 whl disc, hydraulic brakes, 83,000 mi, motor never been apart starting at 15,000.00 obo haven't heard back about air, pw, ect


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

Ok a 7500 is 25950 to 37,000 GVW
Typically what they call a class 7. (although you could spec it as a class 6, just under 26k)

THIS IS A BIG HEAVY TRUCK.

air brakes kick butt, hydraulic brakes are terrible on trucks this size.
Even spec'd at 25,950, to tow just about anything you'll need a CDL (in some states, you need it even then, check your own state).

Since you need a CDL anyway, you get the air brakes endorsement and don't mess around. Almost all 90+% big trucks have drum air brakes and they work alarmingly well. (my fully loaded semi can outstop your F350 with 14k trailer on the back). Also, because these are the most common parts are much cheaper and easier to get.

Of course, in most states (again, check FMCSA website) you'll need USDOT # and all that entails (medical cards, drug testing random and pre-employment, paperwork, annual inspections, etc, etc, etc)

Most auto's on this class are pretty good now, but 10 years ago were ok at best and they don't last all that long. And remember, anything on a big truck is VERY expensive. Just overbuilt like crazy. And auto's aren't the big thing so you're looking at more money than a standard. Plus auto's get worse fuel mileage, esp on these big guys and older transmissions.

You aren't going to be backing up much in a truck this size, you'll run right over little Johnny. You go forward and plow roads or great big lots where you go around and around.

I forgot the best thing. Registering the truck. OUTRAGEOUS. Here in Colorado (which is expensive a pickup truck is about $400), figure about $2000, PER YEAR.


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

thanks...that's the kind of info i'm looking for ..... so would you say even hydraulic 4 wheel disc brakes wouldn't be that good? if you can't tell already i'm really concerned about stopping power in whatever truck i get,
steve


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

air brakes kick a$$
I"m not kidding on the stopping distance on a big semi, it's pretty amazing for so much weight. 

once you go air, you won't ever go back.

You do, of course, need the CDL with air, but that's no big deal. heck, they let me have one. 

My tree guy has a 18k GVW LCF (isuzu something) but it's got air brakes, it's pretty nice.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

LoneCowboy;749214 said:


> You do, of course, need the CDL with air
> 
> .


.....


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## Cat Man 77 (Jan 31, 2009)

As long as you buy a truck with a GVWR of 26,000 or under there is no need for a CDL, all that is needed is a medical card. And you can tow a 10,000 LBS trailer with no issue. basically the truck and trailer can weigh a total of 36,000 lbs. And this is possible because of a loop-hole. No CDL is needed for a vechicle with a GVWR of 26,000, but if it GVWR is 26,001 a CDL is needed. The same applies with the trailer, as long as it's GVWR is 10,000 or under you are fine, but if it's GVWR is 10,001 a CDL is required. All that would be required is a Class C license with a Air Brake endorsement. BTW i would recommend a 26,000 GVWR vehicle with air brakes because you can buy a tag along trailer and tow your backhoe, dozer, or whatever. But i would keep a copy of the law of in the truck to show any ball-buster cop.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Cat Man 77;749368 said:


> As long as you buy a truck with a GVWR of 26,000 or under there is no need for a CDL, all that is needed is a medical card.And you can tow a 10,000 LBS trailer with no issue. basically the truck and trailer can weigh a total of 36,000 lbs. And this is possible because of a loop-hole. No CDL is needed for a vechicle with a GVWR of 26,000, but if it GVWR is 26,001 a CDL is needed. The same applies with the trailer, as long as it's GVWR is 10,000 or under you are fine, but if it's GVWR is 10,001 a CDL is required. All that would be required is a Class C license with a Air Brake endorsement. BTW i would recommend a 26,000 GVWR vehicle with air brakes because you can buy a tag along trailer and tow your backhoe, dozer, or whatever. But i would keep a copy of the law of in the truck to show any ball-buster cop.


You dont need a CDL for a 10K plus trailer:salute:


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## Cat Man 77 (Jan 31, 2009)

cretebaby;749384 said:


> You dont need a CDL for a 10K plus trailer:salute:


in my state a CDL is required for a 10,001 GVWR trailer.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Cat Man 77;749436 said:


> in my state a CDL is required for a 10,001 GVWR trailer.


But CDL requirements are the same for all the states


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Sorry for the hijack

Air would be preferred but we use a old muni truck with hydraulic brakes and it gets the job done just fine also


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

This came right out of my CDL book for CDL A

" gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of more than 26,000 lbs provided that the gross vehicle weight rating ( GVWR) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of any vehicle being towed is more than 10,000lbs"

NY you need a CDL A for any trailer over 10k and CDL B for any truck over 26k. No mention of air but any truck over 26k should have air and you need a air endorsement if it does have air. A truck under 26k with air 


So again any truck and trailer over 26k or any trailer over 10k CDL A

If you tow your 6 ton trailer with your F350 you need a CDL A


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

i don't own anything with air brakes so what's the "trick" with air that you need the special license

EDIT...also what about split rear ends? are they old school?..i haven't seen many newer trucks list them, pros/cons?


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

There are some differences, but the main one is that air brakes fail on.

regular hydraulic brakes fail off. If you get a cut in a line, you have no brakes, there's no pressure left in the line.

air brakes fail on. If you get a cut in the line, lose air pressure, etc, the brakes are fully applied and locked on. (spring brakes, systems older than the mid 1970's on trailers may not work this way)

You don't pump air brakes (because you'll lose air pressure each time you do it)

You don't just drive off, you have to let air pressure build (couple minutes typically)

the braking power is tremendous though.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Johm Mac and Cat Man77

Classes of License:

The Federal standard requires States to issue a CDL to drivers according to the following license classifications:

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds *provided* the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.

Class B -- Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.

Class C -- Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.

This is from the federal website

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/cdl/cdl.htm


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

Crete, you wrote:


> You dont need a CDL for a 10K plus trailer


The law as you wrote it is:


> the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.


Explain?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

John

That is where the confusion is

I used to read it the same way you just did until it was pointed out to me

Read the whole line with the red highlight

Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

I still don't get it. 10,000 is the magic number just like 26k is. I know that if was to get pulled over with out it I would get a ticket, never can talk my way out of them.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

John

It is saying that you need a CDL if the combo is over 26k provided the trailer is over 10k

It is NOT saying you need a CDL for a 10k trailer

Think about it this way if the trailer is under 10k you dont have to factor it into the CDL requirements

Thats why you can pull a 10K trailer with a 27K truck and not need a class B


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

motor wise i'd try to find an 855, l10, or m11 cummins or a dt466 IHC, stay away from 7.3idi, 8.3 cummins and 3116/3126 cat


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

cretebaby;749793 said:


> John
> 
> It is saying that you need a CDL if the combo is over 26k provided the trailer is over 10k
> 
> ...


Not true in all states.
I've seen this on other forums a lot of people in the NE get burned on this.
Trailer over 10k, requires all kinds of stuff.

But, you're right, Fed law is that way.
But why buy an 18k GVW truck to haul 10k trailer?
I can do that with a F150.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

LoneCowboy;749810 said:


> Not true in all states.
> I've seen this on other forums a lot of people in the NE get burned on this.
> Trailer over 10k, requires all kinds of stuff.
> 
> ...


My point is it is the same for ALL states

Ever think that the DOT officer could be reading it wrong also

Anyone getting a ticket for no CDL for a 10k+ trailer should be going to court with it

So what do you need to pull a 10k trailer with a 18k truck CDL A, CDL B or no CDL?

It would be a load for a F150


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

cretebaby;749793 said:


> John
> 
> It is saying that you need a CDL if the combo is over 26k provided the trailer is over 10k
> 
> ...


if you are in a 27K truck then you need at least a class B


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

clark lawn;749864 said:


> if you are in a 27K truck then you need at least a class B


Your right I meant to say Class A:realmad:


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

do you guys know if this is accurate state to state..in MO i could get 12K 18K or 24K plates for my 3500 ram i just pay more for the larger plate...say i bought a 7500 or 8500 series truck can i reduce the plate to be under 26000 so i wouldn't need a CDL? i'm thinking about being able to have others drive it occasionally....i guess if it had airbrakes it would be a whole '"nuther" story?
steve


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

xtreem3d;750087 said:


> do you guys know if this is accurate state to state..in MO i could get 12K 18K or 24K plates for my 3500 ram i just pay more for the larger plate...say i bought a 7500 or 8500 series truck can i reduce the plate to be under 26000 so i wouldn't need a CDL? i'm thinking about being able to have others drive it occasionally....i guess if it had airbrakes it would be a whole '"nuther" story?
> steve


it goes by gvwr so you cant "downrate" it with the plates

there are trucks with downrated gvwr from the factory to be under CDL


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

cretebaby;749825 said:


> Ever think that the DOT officer could be reading it wrong also


DOT officers do not make mistakes. Just ask one, they'll tell you that they don't make mistakes



> So what do you need to pull a 10k trailer with a 18k truck CDL A, CDL B or no CDL?


:waving: I know :waving: I know :waving: A class C.



> It would be a load for a F150


A 10k rated trailer is 2 5000lb axles, a common car carrier. Lots pulled by F150/1500 class trucks. I don't see the point in pulling such a small trailer with such a big truck. I mean, unless that's all you have, but the OP wants to buy a big truck.


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## Doakster (Aug 15, 2008)

To add to the CDL requirements. Here is a link to the Maine CDL hand book. Go to page 8, there is a very easy to use flow chart that will tell you when you need a CDL and what level, very easy to figure out based on this flow chart, this is also the Federal Standard. Hopefully this clears things up for everyone.

http://www.maine.gov/sos/bmv/licenses/MaineCommercialManual.pdf


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

couldn't get the link to work....maybe my laptop was acting up?


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## Doakster (Aug 15, 2008)

xtreem3d;750276 said:


> couldn't get the link to work....maybe my laptop was acting up?


It's an Adobe PDF link

Here's is the chart in picture form. This should take out all the confusion for everyone. The important thing to remember is to look at the COMBINED GVRW or registered weight of the vehicles (truck and or trailer combo) when answering these questions. Again the is the Federal/national standard.


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## Doakster (Aug 15, 2008)

To add to my chart I posted here of some examples of my tow combination and what they require for a CDL or not.

My F-350 hooked to my Gooseneck. 
- Truck GVWR(7500, maybe a little more I can't remember of the top of my head) + Trailer GVWR(14,000) = 21,500 Combined = No CDL required

My International Dump hooked to my Gooseneck
- Truck GVWR(21,400) + Trailer GVWR(14,000) = 35,400 Combined = CDL A required due to the fact the trailer is over 10,000 GVWR and the combined GVWR is over 26,000

- If the trailer was under 10,000 GVWR while hooked to my Dump, no CDL would be required, this comes from question 3 in the chart and is do to the fact my dump at 21,400 GVWR is under the 26,000 GVWR requirement for a class B CDL with a truck and trailer combo

- If the trailer was under 10,000 GVWR while hooked to a truck that was over 26,000 GVWR than a class B CDL would be required.


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

GCWR is 23500lb not 12500 that is trailer weight my bad


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## Doakster (Aug 15, 2008)

John Mac;750468 said:


> lets do the math. My F350 weighs 6964 lbs and a trailer any trailer but lets say a 5 ton to a 7 ton trailer weighs about 2000 lbs, my 5 ton weighs 1950lbs. Add the truck and trailer together and you have about 9000 lbs. My GVWR is 12500 so I can put 3500 lbs on my trailer and be legal, I was doing the math as I typed that and come to find out that any one pulling a skid steer with a F350 is over weight!


You're not looking at things the right way, for you're situation we're not talking about CDLs, you're just looking at what the factory recommends you to tow and you're forgeting about an other rating of truck, GROSS COMBINED VEHICLE WEIGHT RATIO, GCVWR.

Larger trucks usually do not even have this rating because when you get up to larger dumps or tractors it doesn't really matter.

But for one ton trucks the manufactures use a GCVWR, this takes into the consideration all the weight of the truck and trailer loaded. The GVWR of the vehicle takes just the vehicle into consideration when fully loaded.

I think the GCVWR for an F-350 is around 20,000lbs, don't quote me on that i just can't remember right now, so the people towing the skid steers are legal as far as not going over the manufactures recommendations, going over the CDL limitation is a whole different ball game.


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## Doakster (Aug 15, 2008)

John Mac;750468 said:


> GCWR is 23500lb not 12500 that is trailer weight my bad


Looks like you corrected yourself.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Doakster;750437 said:


> It's an Adobe PDF link
> 
> Here's is the chart in picture form. This should take out all the confusion for everyone. The important thing to remember is to look at the COMBINED GVRW or registered weight of the vehicles (truck and or trailer combo) when answering these questions. Again the is the Federal/national standard.


Nice chart Doakster

It doenst says anywhere that you need a CDL for a 10K trailer

Yet Maine guys are the ones saying you need a CDL for 10k + trailers


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## Doakster (Aug 15, 2008)

cretebaby;750797 said:


> Nice chart Doakster
> 
> It doenst says anywhere that you need a CDL for a 10K trailer
> 
> *Yet Maine guys are the ones saying you need a CDL for 10k + trailers:confused*:


You had it right in you're post #23, with the need for a CDL if a the Combo of weight is over 26k and the trailer is 10k plus. Question two describes this, by asking "is the vehicle a combination vehicle towing a unit (aka trailer) over 10,000lbs. That's where the CDL for a 10,000 plus trailer comes into play.

When the say "combination vehicle" they mean Truck and Trailer.

Any one can tow a 10k trailer or a 10k plus trailer as long as the combo GVRW or actual weight of truck and trailer is not over 26,000, then you are in CDL territory.


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

BTW it is not a bad thing to own a truck that is over 26k rated...you'll need a cdl but who cares? it's not any harderer than getting a class f lic..just my opinion..also if your biz goes to ****tt because of the economy you can always go hop in a truck for a year and save you family and pay your bills....


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## Doakster (Aug 15, 2008)

Jay brown;750944 said:


> BTW it is not a bad thing to own a truck that is over 26k rated...you'll need a cdl but who cares? it's not any harderer than getting a class f lic..just my opinion..also if your biz goes to ****tt because of the economy you can always go hop in a truck for a year and save you family and pay your bills....


I just wish I had to the time to go get mine, I'd love to have it, not just to use as another income if I need to but to actually be legal when my Dump is hooked to my gooseneck


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## BOSS550 (Jan 19, 2007)

EXTREEME

I have a 88 Chevy C70 dump. 28K GVW. Hydraulic disk brakes all around. Gas 366Big Block, 5 spd trans with 2 speed rear. I have it regestered in combo with my trailer for 40K. I tow a 4x4 JD 310 hoe on it sometimes with a partial load in the truck. It does the job but it is certainly not a diesel dump with air brakes. Lone Cowboy is not kidding about the difference between hyd and air brakes. If you can get them I'd go air. I have a lot of seat time in 10 wheelers and tri-axles moving hoes and excavators and I'm speaking from experience. I also would not even consider an older truck with a auto for the same reasons others stated. Look for an Eaton 8LL trans. 2 speed rear is no big deal. I don't mind it. I think the learning curve is much shorter for a 2 spd rear versus a stand non-sync truck trans IMO. The important part is to make sure it's not missing any teeth back there before you own it. They can be expensive to fix. And an uneducated driver will grind you a pound in a 2spd truck just as fast as a non sync trans truck and the auto well, they won't miss gears but will try to drive it like a race car and put it on it's side so you can't win on any angle here!

Something important to note. Not all states go by actual weight but by regesterd weight. You could be empty but if the paperwork ain't right it will cost ya.


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## 04red2500 (Dec 21, 2007)

I have a 98 F700 for sale its set up for a tailgate spreader,auto,gas 460 runs good http://detroit.craigslist.org/cto/1029569545.html


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

I think that many people get stuck on the 10k# trailer situation. CDLs aside you need to follow DOT regulations if you have a GCVWR of over 10k#- if you are doing so in commerce. If you are using a F350 (9,900 GVWR for a SRW model) you are OK. If you attach a trailer with a GVWR of 1,101# or more you must follow DOT rules. Rules like drug testing your drivers, emblems containing your DOT numbers and company name, fire extinguishers and triangles. Many people attach the CDL issue to the DOT rules. I like the diagram from DOAKSTER (cretebaby has posted on another site as well) as it makes it all easy to understand. Good find.


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## Doakster (Aug 15, 2008)

DGODGR;760577 said:


> I think that many people get stuck on the 10k# trailer situation. CDLs aside you need to follow DOT regulations if you have a GCVWR of over 10k#- if you are doing so in commerce. If you are using a F350 (9,900 GVWR for a SRW model) you are OK. If you attach a trailer with a GVWR of 1,101# or more you must follow DOT rules. Rules like drug testing your drivers, emblems containing your DOT numbers and company name, fire extinguishers and triangles. Many people attach the CDL issue to the DOT rules. I like the diagram from *DOAKSTER (cretebaby has posted on another site as well) as it makes it all easy to understand. Good find.*


Where else did it get posted? Thank the Maine DOT for that one.


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## kah68 (Jan 16, 2006)

Sounds like you have more that one driver planned for this truck? If your state law requires an A or CDL for your combination then that will be a CDL x the number of people you plan to drive the truck, keep that in mind. Also unless its a late model allison I would stay away from an auto, a well spec'd manual with a nice low 1st and proper gear spacing or 'steps' will out last any other tranny going if you give your guys a clinic on how to use the tranny properly and ride them about starting off in first everytime. I have never changed a clutch in a 'new' truck yet when the guys are told what to do and listen. I would also stay away from disk brakes as they are new to H.D. trucks and usually much more expensive to replace and repair. Air would be a good way to go if you are willing to have all your people certified with a Z or air endorsement, also air requires daily adjustment inspection and they are one of the leading causes of an out of service violation or a commercial truck, so you need a good maintainance program for the air brakes. There are some areas with a heavier truck that are more costly, registration, insurance for example but if you are needing a heavy truck a lot of the time and you are carrying boarderline loads on a 5500 series then do yourself a favor and jump in with both feet, get to know the laws, find a good mechanic or garage if you can't do the work yourself, train your people properly and you'll be better off.


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