# Packed snow turned ice on steep driveway, help!



## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

I have a customer that I recently took over plowing from whoever he had before. It's a U shaped drive with the legs of the U very steep uphill from the street. They must have not plowed very often and driven on it a lot because there is a THICK mat of well groomed ice under the snow. I have to get a run at each leg of the U from the street and backblade the snow off in a 4-wheel locked slide down the drive, exposing the ice so slick you can hardly walk up. I feel bad because removing the snow makes it slicker.

I think I'm going to have to put some product down. I was thinking about mixing some sand and salt together and spreading it by hand after plowing but I'm afraid its just going to slide down as they pull in/slide out.
Any suggestions?


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## mc1 (Mar 2, 2007)

is this a joke. get a couple of bags of sidewalksalt spread by hand and done . or if you really want to look like a pro buy a salter and salt after every trip charge accordingly and you will have a customer for life. drives like that demand salt on every trip just charge them the fact that they wont have to buy new tires this spring will be savings enough.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Yes you could do that, I'd say if its thick ice you will want to apply a few times in 24-36 hrs First application use a 50/50 sand salt mix.If you put mostly sand it will slide off the ice and act like ball bearings. The salt in the mix will melt/burn holes into the ice giving the sand a chance to settle. 
second application just throw a few shovels worth of salt into your sand making a 10/90 mostly sand mix. By then the salt will be working allowing the sand to aid traction.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Use Peladow!


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

I would get an excess amount of Magic salt, then plow off some hardpack--- apply again, repeat as needed until you're down to bare blacktop.Then, after each plowing, apply whatever ice control method you choose.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Get a five gallon bucket and a couple/four bags of blended ice melt. Spread an even coat of ice melt over the drive. In the bucket mix 2 gallons of water and stir in as much ice melt as the water will absorb. Wait until you see holes appearing in the ice coat then pour the liquid mix over the drive. The solids will burn holes for the liquid to run though. The liquids will run under the ice releasing it's bond and allowing you to scrape it up. You may need more material I don't know the size of the drive.

Doing it on a sunny day will help.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

There is a reason that the snow was packed down causing the ice condition. If the pack down is as bad as you stated it's because they didn't PLOW the driveway they just drove over it. If they are not paying you to remove the pack down i would not do it. I'm always very concerned about mid season accounts change over what was the reason? 
If you want to get rid of it. i would hot mix some sand and salt 30/70 just so you can back in over it. than let it sit. than reapply a load of salt.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

fireside;1459573 said:


> If they are not paying you to remove the pack down i would not do it. .


Thumbs Up


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

mc1;1459340 said:


> is this a joke. get a couple of bags of sidewalksalt spread by hand and done . or if you really want to look like a pro buy a salter and salt after every trip charge accordingly and you will have a customer for life. drives like that demand salt on every trip just charge them the fact that they wont have to buy new tires this spring will be savings enough.


Take a gander at his location. I haven't been there in awhile, but I am pretty sure salt\sand are not used extensively in an area that can easily receive 200+ inches of snow.

So just accusing this guy of not being a pro or telling him that drives like that demand salt is rather ignorant. Sure it's a college town, but it's also the UP, where the economy has sucked for about 15 years.

Some folks can live with snow, as it is a fact of life. Others think 1 flake is going to speed up the Mayan calendar and must be salted as it's falling from the sky.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

larboc;1459324 said:


> I have a customer that I recently took over plowing from whoever he had before.


This says something right here......


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## V_Scapes (Jan 1, 2011)

I always use calcium magnesium acetate to melt hard packed ice and snow. its expensive material but works very fast. spread a liberal amount on the driveway just before the sun hits it. Lava Melt or Mr. Magic.


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## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

V_Scapes;1459659 said:


> I always use calcium magnesium acetate to melt hard packed ice and snow. its expensive material but works very fast. spread a liberal amount on the driveway just before the sun hits it. Lava Melt or Mr. Magic.


We maybe get 10hrs of sunlight between november and april, but I'll look for some of that.

dfd9 knows what I'm talking about. even though we are way behind on snowfall this year, we've had 152" of snow so far this year with 3 feet on the ground. Also, houghton/hancock are both built on hills (think san fransisco, but with a lake effect snow machine) so naturally a great deal of my customers have slopped drives. Everyone that I've been taking care off all winter have nice driveways with no ice, except the one in question (which I started plowing mid january) that is giving me heartaches.

I plow for college students on an on-call setup for $15 per call, or I just keep the driveway clean and send them a bill for $15 per trip at the end of the month. What happens all too often is I'll get a call from someone that has been shoveling/driving over the snow all year and they want me to come plow it bare.

I like the idea of "it's not my problem", but I can hardly get up it to plow, even with a 55 gallon drum of ice in the bed. I'd charge them if I had to spread salt/sand but before I'm out there sliding around with a hand spreader and some bags I wanted to know what others do. I'll charge him extra for the sanding/salting.

I appreciate the help! I'm not a pro by any means but I've been doing this for a few years for supplemental income (broke ass grad student), but I've never had this bad of a driveway.

The driveway in question is crushed mine rock btw.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Don't bother with the CMA, larboc, it's way too expensive for anyone in the UP to pay for and is basically crap. 

If you want to smoke the ice off, try plain old calcium chloride. Relatively cheap and fast working. And you won't need a ton of it as you will CMA. 

Good luck and no judgments here, I completely understand what you're dealing with. 

Just another example of how things work in the UP. There are roads that are seasonal. That means when the snow falls, they aren't plowed by the counties or state. If you live off one, you better have a snowmobile, because you won't see pavement (gravel) until April. Or May. I just don't think most people understand what you are dealing with. Physically and the mental aspect of what people think about snow up by you.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

fireside;1459573 said:


> If they are not paying you to remove the pack down i would not do it.


Exactly, I'm with him.



larboc;1459677 said:


> We maybe get 10hrs of sunlight between november and april, but I'll look for some of that.
> 
> dfd9 knows what I'm talking about. even though we are way behind on snowfall this year, we've had 152" of snow so far this year with 3 feet on the ground. Also, houghton/hancock are both built on hills (think san fransisco, but with a lake effect snow machine) so naturally a great deal of my customers have slopped drives. Everyone that I've been taking care off all winter have nice driveways with no ice, except the one in question (which I started plowing mid january) that is giving me heartaches.
> 
> ...


I had a very similar driveway last season. It went straight downhill and the house was the first thing you came up to which had barely a flat spot before you got there. It had a very small turnoff to both the left and right (maybe enough for a small car each way). After I'd plow the sun would melt it a bit but it was very shaded and would re-freeze. Literally a sheet of smooth ice the next snowstorm.

The owner didn't want to pay for sand or salt and would never apply enough of their own to do anything. So my last resort was *tire chain's*. I bought 2 pairs and put them on all 4 tires, the truck never slid an inch afterwards. It was like I was driving on dry pavement, of course I took it easy so I wouldn't spin and possibly damage the driveway or my truck but it made a world of difference.


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## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

So you put on and took off chains every time you plowed?

I've got chains on the rear of my scout that I use to plow my yard at home and yea, they work great but I don't know if I'd want to screw around with them every time I went to plow the guys place. Not for $15-$20 anyway


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Pretty common occurance in the UP, when "Panking a trail" goes bad..............

listen to dfd9, he's giving you good info...........


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

larboc;1459740 said:


> So you put on and took off chains every time you plowed?
> 
> I've got chains on the rear of my scout that I use to plow my yard at home and yea, they work great but I don't know if I'd want to screw around with them every time I went to plow the guys place. Not for $15-$20 anyway


Yup, lay them down, drive forward. Wrap them around and connect/clamp down. Done. Took all of 10 minutes to do all 4 and I'd never plow a drive for $15-$20 especially one that is up or down hill.


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## BOSS LAWN (Nov 6, 2011)

Well make sure your charging them for the wear and tear on your truck.


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

I like dfd9's posts also. Sounds like he has a good grasp on whats going on up there. The only other thing I could think of is that I have some clients (and a road) on the lake Michigan shoreline that live in the hills who don't want the use of salts/chemicals unless it is requested by the homeowners. Its not because they don't want to pay for the product, they are more concerned of the environmental effects. They would rather live with a little snow/ice than put salt/chemicals down.


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

Your current temp is right now around 32*F, your lowest temp over the next 48 hours doesn't show below 25*F. Your most effective choice based on cost, temp, time frame, and effectiveness for your own traction to complete the job is going to be rock salt.

You didn't give very specific details about the slope and the amounts of snow and ice pack or the overall length of the drive, but this method will work regardless, unless the snow is higher than your axles. I'll assume each leg of the drive doesn't exceed 100' & I'll also assume that maybe you can't see past your hood when driving upward.

Based on that...one ton of salt (bulk) approximately $75-85, would be more than enough to get it to bare pavement pending the amount of time that you have. Again assuming, that you can't climb the drive in forward or reverse, you can start by manually applying salt in two heavy tire width paths where you would be driving. Don't do the center yet. The material should be at it's heaviest at the highest points of the drive and to the higher edges. This will do two things...1. giving you traction, something your tires will have to bite into, 2. by driving over a few times, the salt will be ground deeper into the ice developing a slurry. As the slurry becomes more liquid, you should notice the width of those tracks begin to widen. You should also see where the salt water begins to start running downhill, with the heavier concentration near the top it will increase the melting down below. Water always takes the path of least resistance & will at some point find its way under the ice pack & eventually break the bond. Once you feel comfortable with driving on it (after the salt has had adequate time to work), you can begin scraping it down. The salt at this point in time should be below the higher snow, which would pose no problems as far it it being plowed off. Once you get the drive down to a manageable or reasonable thickness, you can apply a general coating to the entire surface area. If done right, you should have enough residual salt left on the drive, that will make your next plowing event more manageable. The more you can drive on it, the more you will accelerate the process. Obviously, the amount of material that is used will also be relevant as to how fast or how long it takes to complete.

If bulk salt is not an option for you, bag salt will work fine but only double or even triple the cost. If bags are to be used, best to just cut a small corner off the bag and spill it out in the same method. Too thin & too wide will take too long and possibly a lot more material.

Charge accordingly & good luck!


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Seeing that it's gravel, I'd just let it be. It should melt off on it's own by early July, maybe even a week or two earlier....................Thumbs Up


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

coldcoffee;1460040 said:


> Your current temp is right now around 32*F, your lowest temp over the next 48 hours doesn't show below 25*F. Your most effective choice based on cost, temp, time frame, and effectiveness for your own traction to complete the job is going to be rock salt.
> 
> You didn't give very specific details about the slope and the amounts of snow and ice pack or the overall length of the drive, but this method will work regardless, unless the snow is higher than your axles. I'll assume each leg of the drive doesn't exceed 100' & I'll also assume that maybe you can't see past your hood when driving upward.
> 
> ...


A ton?

Why don't we take a page from Daytona. Drop a couple gallons of kerosene down both legs of the drive and light her up! Thumbs Up

Way cheaper than a ton of salt.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

dfd9;1460650 said:


> A ton?
> 
> Why don't we take a page from Daytona. Drop a couple gallons of kerosene down both legs of the drive and light her up! Thumbs Up
> 
> Way cheaper than a ton of salt.


I heard a suggestion the other day that might apply; tactical nukeThumbs Up


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## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

We're supposed to get dumped on again today after the 10-15 inches we got a couple days ago so I'll try putting down some rock salt after I get the snow off and see what happens.

It's a good 4-5 inches of ice pack. Glazed over from spinning tires. I HATE this driveway. Everyone else is cake. This guy's is just a pita.

Thanks again for the help!


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

larboc;1460700 said:


> We're supposed to get dumped on again today after the 10-15 inches we got a couple days ago so I'll try putting down some rock salt after I get the snow off and see what happens.
> 
> It's a good 4-5 inches of ice pack. Glazed over from spinning tires. I HATE this driveway. Everyone else is cake. This guy's is just a pita.
> 
> Thanks again for the help!


Does your truck slide all over the place while you try to plow this driveway? Any tree's lining it or walls?


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## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

plowguy43;1460713 said:


> Does your truck slide all over the place while you try to plow this driveway? Any tree's lining it or walls?


The drive is lined with trees, but I'm getting the small ones knocked down one by one. 
The worst part is trying to make the turn to the middle of the U and yes I'm sliding all the time in all directions. I can put it in park, get out and push the truck down the hill with all fours locked up. The problem is that it's been so warm this winter that traction is even worse.
My truck is so smashed up from hitting snow banks and trees while plowing it doesn't matter. Anyone else ever break the glass in their driver side mirror on a snow bank you made opening up a driveway?

Other obsticals at this place is the house, a boat on a trailer (not moveable now), phone connection box, and underground power junction box. And a busy side street at the bottom.

I'll try and get a picture today.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Just wondering because to me, 15-20 minutes of putting those chain's on to avoid damaging their property or your truck to the point it can't be driven would be worth it. 

Sounds like a real PITA Driveway!


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## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

We got 12" of the wet heavy stuff between 11am and 8pm today with 35mph winds.
I didn't get a pic of the lot in question, but this should give you an idea of the snow we get/got.









I plowed the street in front of my house in Painesdale with my yard plow scout/toy (that's right, no doors).

















Video of another customers driveway that isn't nearly as bad as the one this post is about but gets drifts off the lake. 
DD/plow truck on the 2nd push after hammering through a 4 foot heavy wet snow drift. The driveway was clear this morning. (yes I know I forgot to turn on my important light)















I salt tommorow


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

That's awesome!!. The first pic is a cloths line pole and I assume it sticks out of the ground 5-6 feet, that means there is 3-4 feet of snow on the ground. I don't know if I have ever seen that much snow on the ground at one time. Hopefully its gone by the time we get up to porcupine mtn state park this Julyussmileyflag


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Plowtoy;1461608 said:


> That's awesome!!. The first pic is a cloths line pole and I assume it sticks out of the ground 5-6 feet, that means there is 3-4 feet of snow on the ground. I don't know if I have ever seen that much snow on the ground at one time. Hopefully its gone by the time we get up to porcupine mtn state park this Julyussmileyflag


Should make for enough moisture for skeeters and black flies. Thumbs Up :laughing:


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

dfd9;1461650 said:


> Should make for enough moisture for skeeters and black flies. Thumbs Up :laughing:


Which in Turn The Trout will Love.......:salute:


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## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

Plowed the "U PITA" driveway yesterday and was able to get up high enough to plow both legs but I can't make the turn to head down the middle. I talked to the customer and he was actually really happy with the job I've been doing. Said I'm better and cheaper than the last guy.
We are supposed to be getting a warm up (40 degrees) after another foot or so of snow tonight through sunday night so I'm going to take y'alls advice and take some tire chains and a 40 lb bag of salt and see if I can get the the pack more manageable. I'll for sure get a pic of the driveway when I do that.


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## BOSS LAWN (Nov 6, 2011)

larboc;1462381 said:


> Plowed the "U PITA" driveway yesterday and was able to get up high enough to plow both legs but I can't make the turn to head down the middle. I talked to the customer and he was actually really happy with the job I've been doing. Said I'm better and cheaper than the last guy.
> We are supposed to be getting a warm up (40 degrees) after another foot or so of snow tonight through sunday night so I'm going to take y'alls advice and take some tire chains and a 40 lb bag of salt and see if I can get the the pack more manageable. I'll for sure get a pic of the driveway when I do that.


I'd be happy too if I was that customer. Hope your charging him enough!


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## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

I charge $15 per push for almost everyone. I'll be adding on time and materials for salting/chaining.


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## BOSS LAWN (Nov 6, 2011)

larboc;1462429 said:


> I charge $15 per push for almost everyone. I'll be adding on time and materials for salting/chaining.


You gotta start charging more! That way you cover your costs, wear and tear, etc.. I charge a minimum of $30 per push for resi's. and if we have a storm over 4 inches, its double.

Customers wont mind being charged more during a storm! payup


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm with Boss Lawn. Gotta adjust pricing per driveway, no sense in charging an easy in and out driveway the same as a driveway that will nearly total your truck everytime you show up (technically speaking)


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

BOSS LAWN;1462440 said:


> You gotta start charging more! That way you cover your costs, wear and tear, etc.. I charge a minimum of $30 per push for resi's. and if we have a storm over 4 inches, its double.
> 
> Customers wont mind being charged more during a storm! payup


Its such a fine line. Who know's if his area would support $30 per push. I am getting $20 per push for an average to small drive, but I know my prices are high in my area. Most are charging $10. I'm fortunate my clients appreciate quality service and are willing to pay for it.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

BOSS LAWN;1462440 said:


> You gotta start charging more! That way you cover your costs, wear and tear, etc.. I charge a minimum of $30 per push for resi's. and if we have a storm over 4 inches, its double.
> 
> Customers wont mind being charged more during a storm! payup





dfd9;1459596 said:


> Take a gander at his location. I haven't been there in awhile, but I am pretty sure salt\sand are not used extensively in an area that can easily receive 200+ inches of snow.
> 
> So just accusing this guy of not being a pro or telling him that drives like that demand salt is rather ignorant. Sure it's a college town, but it's also the UP, where the economy has sucked for about 15 years.
> 
> Some folks can live with snow, as it is a fact of life. Others think 1 flake is going to speed up the Mayan calendar and must be salted as it's falling from the sky.


Read my post.

Reread my post.

You get 1/4 or 25% of the snow on average that larboc gets. 2" of snow in the UP\Kewenaaw is nothing to them. 4" would be like your dusting of snow.

Maybe he could get more. Never know until you try. But you have no idea being in an area that is totally opposite of yours. Would you tell Alaska Boss that he needs to charge more? What about the guys in Colorado or Tahoe? There are so many things to consider here, that your post is almost laughable. Amount of snow for one, and the economy for another.

Not sure why you guys can't grasp the concept that pricing is regional, just as plowing is. What is acceptable to your customers might be a minor nuisance to others. Like I said, Yoopers do not freak out and attempt to melt snow as it falls. It's a way of life and they accept it.
*
ON EDIT:* Never mind, I just checked your profile, you're 19 and know everything. My apologies.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

dfd9;1462567 said:


> Like I said, Yoopers do not freak out and attempt to melt snow as it falls. It's a way of life and they accept it.


That's kind of an understatement. I actually think they drive faster through a foot of snow than in the middle of summer, because the snow dampens all the potholes.........Thumbs Up


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## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

jomama45;1462621 said:


> That's kind of an understatement. I actually think they drive faster through a foot of snow than in the middle of summer, because the snow dampens all the potholes.........Thumbs Up


That would be funny if it weren't true.
Also, the giant snow banks along the highways are about the safest guard rails you could ask for.

In this area, about 1/3 the passenger vehicles you see are pickups, and 75% of them have plows. Plus lot's of people like snow blowers, I couldn't tell you why, I hate those things.
Everybody and their brother "plows for money"
If i can plow a driveway in less than 15 mins I'll charge $15 and that's about as much as you will get up here. I lost one customer that had a giant parking area and a long driveway to a main highway and I wanted $20 for it. I think she went to someone who would do it for less (or free). It wasn't worth it to me.

Supposed to get another 6-8 this weekend.


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## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

Are you saying that " U PITA " takes you about 15 mins to do ?


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## Winter Land Man (Aug 9, 2005)

larboc;1459740 said:


> So you put on and took off chains every time you plowed?
> 
> I've got chains on the rear of my scout that I use to plow my yard at home and yea, they work great but I don't know if I'd want to screw around with them every time I went to plow the guys place. Not for $15-$20 anyway


$15-$20??? Woah, Wilbahhh!


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## larboc (Dec 8, 2009)

BlackIrish;1463012 said:


> Are you saying that " U PITA " takes you about 15 mins to do ?


That's about as long as I work at it. It won't do any good to spend longer time there.

And up here nobody will hire you at anything much more than what I charge.


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## mwalsh9152 (Dec 30, 2008)

that driveway sounds like something I personally wouldnt want to do again next year. The potential to slide into something and damage/put your truck out of service is too high IMO. 

Just before opening this thread I was cursing to myself about the damage I did to a tendon in my palm which causes occasional annoyances with my middle finger last winter breaking up pack ice in my own driveway. I got home about 30-45 mins too late after it turned to rain, then the temp plummeted shortly after. After I cleared it as best as I could it rained the next day so I had a 4" thick skating rink I had to contend with.


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