# ballast questions



## Calamari (Oct 9, 2005)

I have an f-250 w/PSD and 8' Fisher. I've seen many comments regarding ballast throughout the site, but haven't been able to find an explaination about it.

Is it needed to counter the weight the plow adds? If so, shouldn't it be placed as far back in the bed as possible? Is it needed to assist truck through deep snow? How is the amount of ballast determined? Around here sand is mixed with salt, so I don't want to use it in the bed of the truck. Any other suggestions? 

Got down to 35 degress just north of Boston last night. First frost will be this week! pumpkin:


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Calamari said:


> Is it needed to counter the weight the plow adds? If so, shouldn't it be placed as far back in the bed as possible? Is it needed to assist truck through deep snow? How is the amount of ballast determined? Around here sand is mixed with salt, so I don't want to use it in the bed of the truck. Any other suggestions?


Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
By the manufacturer.
Concrete blocks.


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## The Boss (Oct 22, 2003)

Welcome to plowsite!
Ballast is used to counter the weight of a snowplow. Typically, it's supposed to be put above and between the rear wheels and tailgate. I persaonally set mine directly above the rear wheels due to having to put my 2-stage in the bed as well. I usually just use salt for my ballast.


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## Killswitch (Aug 9, 2005)

Recommended weight is 3/4 the weight of the plow or thereabouts.

I uses 4 to 500 lbs of bagged play sand for a 750 pound rig.

I like the sand because its cheap, available if stuck, and for emergency ice management situations.


I did have occassion to pick up some 2x2 flat patio blocks this year and for as heavy as they are a short stack 2 wide, and maybe 3 tall would provide some good weight cheap, and keep the bed relatively organized for other uses. I swear they weighed well over fifty pounds each....Id say closer to 75/80

But Im sticking with the sand.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

I agree with the 3/4 of plow weight. I personally only use about 50%, around 350lbs. I have read a lot of posts on here where people say they are using what I consider an outrageous amount of weight. At some point you are just overworking the truck, wasting fuel and using up the life of your springs, shocks, wheel bearings, not to mention brakes. And increasing your stopping distance, which is a big concern when you are driving in poor road conditions, poor visibility with 8 feet of sharp-edged steel hanging off the front of your truck. So when Mrs. Nitwit slides out in front of you , you will hit her that much harder. A reasonable amount of ballast will actually improve your stopping ability as it transfers some weight back to the rear brakes, but too much weight will definitely increase your stopping distance locked up or not. I'm sure 1000 lbs will make it feel like its got better traction and pushing ability, but it is really overdoing it. And what people refuse to understand is the counterweight theory goes out the window when you drop the plow and take 700 lbs off the front axle. If you place your weight directly over the rear wheels you will help with traction, behind the wheels helps traction and very slightly helps unload the front axle, but it is not a cantilever like people think, The front axle still has to carry that plow no matter how hard you push down on the rear wheels. In front of the rear wheels (which I have seen) is a waste of time altogether. Another thing to consider is to use ballast that is secure in the event of an accident, or even just hitting snowbanks. A cinderblock through your back window is a headache, or even worse coming out and hitting someone else. 
So now all the guys who believe you need 1000 lbs or more will post and say I'm an idiot because I don't think you need a half a ton in a truck, even though I presented my reasoning. So, go ahead.


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## Calamari (Oct 9, 2005)

*thanks*

Super info for this NFG. Thanks for all your help thus far.


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## 85F150 (Mar 13, 2003)

the cheapest would be to just get some burlap bags and fill them with sand if you have property to take the dirt from. A friend that runs a tree company fills his bed with wood but has issues with people stealing it form him when the truck is parked at various stores. I run weight in front of the rear axle on one of my DD trucks but it is just to help it ride smoother as a shortbed 3/4 ton empty truck sucks. But mainly my weight ahead of the rear wheels is my toolbox. In the winter i run a couple rows of sand in front of the tailgate.


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## tessdad (Jan 25, 2005)

What I like to use is sand/salt mix, in 5 gallon buckets with covers. The covers keep the salt away from the truck, and keep it usable, not frozen or melted togeather. The handle allows you to adjust the amount of weight your using, and the ease of removing them from the truck between storms.
I cut some PT planks that fit into the notches in my bed linner, to corral the buckets, and keep them from shifting.


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## danno (Sep 16, 2004)

Sand bags are the best! Will give you traction in the bed, and if needed, around the tires !


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## douglasl330 (Oct 4, 2005)

*Ballast*

I used about 700# over the rear wheels(in a 4'x4' configuation) I have used many things frome old engine blocks to scuba tanks- but the buckets of sand which you can get sand most of the time from your DPW and two or three large logs are what I ran last couple of winters with no problems.


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## Scott R (Oct 18, 2005)

Just another comment on how we all differ and this is what makes us all individauls.
I run about 950 lbs of railroad rail as close to "over" the rear wheels. I have welded brackets up under the frame that holds the rail in a "nesting" pattern.
I find under most conditions it adds some traction to the rear, however, it makes it money when I get the front end into a ditch or over an edge, the plow is now in full lift position, therefore transfering most of the tractive effort onto the front axle, this helps get a bite from the rear locker.

Fore whats it's worth, the 950 lbe pulls down on my springs 5/16 ths of an inch, and my springs are 53 years old  Not an issue. My plow adds about 1,000 lbs to my front axle. (all home made, no store bought stuff for me, I weld on westerns, myers, etc. all the time, fixing them. No slam on any brand, I just wanted a heavy duty unit, I somewhat copied a Fisher design with my own additions and used heavier gage steel in most places.)

Again, just my opinion


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## Calamari (Oct 9, 2005)

Scott R, 

I do have access to rails. Your springs are 53 yeares old?! What were they out of? Also sounds like a killer plow rig capable of plowing trees, rip rap and large mammals.


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## RamesesSnow23 (Jan 4, 2004)

Its all about balance, your goal is a 50/50 weight distribution, which is very hard to get in a pickup truck. I personally dont like the rear end to be so light so 700-800 does the job very nicely and I see noticeable differences in pushing power. The stress on the brakes is little if any at all, you still make sure to stay within your axle ratings and balance the truck out. I find it difficult to plow when the rear end wants to hop around at will. Look at the towns dump trucks, even if they are not equipped with sanders they load them with sand. Any good plower will run alot of Ballest, 1000 LBS is just about right for a 3/4 or 1 ton equipped with a 900-1000 plow. Most guys with spreaders are well over that. Thats what trucks are made for. You can run a heavier spring in the back like I have seen some guys do. When these threads come up I wish a certain old member (wyldman) was still posting on this site.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

My 3/4 ton with 3-400 lbs in the bed the rearend will not hop around at will. I'd have to really try to get the rear tires to spin, and thats with a strong smallblock. I'm pretty sure that an empty truck with a blade on (and up) would have the least stopping ability. A lightly loaded truck -up to 5-600 lbs- would stop better. 1000 lbs is going to be a little harder to stop. I know people think that they way they do it is right, even if they dont know anything about trucks, and if it works for you, great. I just wanted to share what I know, having many years in the heavy equipment towing and trucking business. I move big stuff every day, I went to school for it, and I'd like to add I think we were talking about little 4 wheel pickups, not commercial trucks like dump trucks that have 6 wheels and completely different load capacities and weight requirements. 6 wheelers have to have a lot of weight, because the weight they do have is divided up over 4 rear wheels.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Detroitdan said:


> I move big stuff every day, I went to school for it, and I'd like to add I think we were talking about little 4 wheel pickups,


what was the name of the school & what deg or cert did you get?
Go out to your local truck scale and see just how this works.

1. put plow on weigh front Axel. 
2. add counter weight weigh (behind the rear Axel) weigh front Axel again
see the difference.
It works on Little ity bitty 4+4s too just like the big trucks, adjust the load to distribute the load on the front steering Axel.. you can only have so much weight on the front Axel, the trucker can change how much weight is on it by moving his load and rear axles.

Or you can do this at home put on the plow, (nothing in the back)
raise the plow, measure, distance from ground bumper to the ground.
now add your counterweight (behind rear wheels) and remeasure is the front bumper to the ground, did it go up? or down?


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## Big Dog D (Oct 1, 2005)

Save your self a whole bunch of hassel aggravation and visit the Fisher web site and enter the Plow selection tab then select E-MAtch then input all of your info Trk; MFG,YR, MODEL etc.... and at the end the headlight question doesn't matter how you answer. The last thing it does is calculate the amount of ballast you should use. This is figured out by engineers that build plows, not opinionated web-site wanna-bees. This would be a good place to start and you can go up or down from there depending upon your personal prefrences and findings as you go. 

As far as what to use for ballast, I use bags of pelletized lime because it is cheap 3-4 $ per bag, comes in plastic bags and is easy to handle. I usually add about 15 bags of the lime and 3 bags of icemelt to use as I need.


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## Scott R (Oct 18, 2005)

*Hey Big Dog D*

Your statement about opioniated want a be's is a real contradiction, that's what sites like this are all about. To simply follow the advice of a engineer on somthing as elementry as the above subject is very sad at best. I work with (as many do) engineers from many different fields every day. 90% of them are Guy's and or Gals just like us, that have had a bit of schooling so they can know better how to look up information in books, etc. Not rocket science by any means. The collective experience of all of those on this site will far out engineer the guy from Fisher that was tasked with coming up with a simple spread sheet and a few formulas.
:salute:


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## Scott R (Oct 18, 2005)

Calamari said:


> Scott R,
> 
> I do have access to rails. Your springs are 53 yeares old?! What were they out of? Also sounds like a killer plow rig capable of plowing trees, rip rap and large mammals.


I have been plowing for the last 14 years with a 1952 Dodge Power Wagon, still has the OEM rear springs, I can't fit enough steel in the back to overload the old thing (if I were to try) just the way they built them back then.
I use both 90 lb rail and 125 lb rail, I nest a 90 lb upside down between two 125 lb rails, back and forth like that. I just cut slots in the web of the rail and offset the slots so the rail hangs like stated above. It all slides in on two peices on 3/8" angle iron.


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## Big Dog D (Oct 1, 2005)

Quote by ScottR

"Not rocket science by any means. The collective experience of all of those on this site will far out engineer the guy from Fisher that was tasked with coming up with a simple spread sheet and a few formulas."




Scott,

My money is with the guys from Fisher, not the guy recommending 1000lbs in the back of a 3/4 ton pickup with a 717lb. plow!!!!


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Big Dog D said:


> not the guy recommending 1000lbs in the back of a 3/4 ton pickup with a 717lb. plow!!!!


Not sure what you were looking at, but Chris recommended 1000# of ballast for a 3/4 ton or one ton with a 900 - 1000# plow. I'd say he was close. I use a Vbox loaded with sand/salt for ballast against a 9' Fisher.

But, if you want to get a definitive answer, go here and "fill in the blanks": http://www.fisherplows.com/ematch.asp


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The subject of ballast sure gets interesting. LMAO.

My $.02. DetroitDan, it doesn't matter what size truck you are driving, how many tires it has or anything else. It is a simple matter of physics, which are laws of nature that cannot be changed on this planet. The placement of load in front, over, behind the wheels does matter on any size truck, the only difference is in the amount of weight we are talking about. 

You might want to get the front and rear axle of your truck weighed without a plow or mount and see what the weight distribution is, I bet somewhere in the 60\40-70\30 range depending on configuration, but probably closer to the 60\40. Now add a 500# weight about 2-3 feet in front of the fulcrumm (axle). I'm not an engineer but I do know that your 500# plow is probably closer to 700 or 800#'s now. Where is that going to put the ratio? 80/20? This will work the same way in the back if you put the ballast behind the wheels, you will need less weight because it is behind the fulcrum (axle). 

I personally would go with the 1000#'s on anything with a decent size plow, better to be a little heavier in the rear which is lighter than the front end out of the factory. If you are worried about an extra 500#'s wearing out your rear brakes, springs, and using more fuel, you might want to find a new profession. 

That's just me, though. I am not an engineer in real life, but I play one on TV.


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## Scott R (Oct 18, 2005)

Well put Mark.
Another method I have used for ballest is the old "lead Bumper"
My buddy had a Toyota Tundra with a Sno-Way, he wanted ballest without using bed space. I fabed up a rear bumper our of 2X6" rec. tube, added another slopped section to the bottom of it, capped the ends, drilled 1" holes in the back side. Picked up 4, five gallon buckets of old wheel weights, melted them down and filled the bumper with lead. End result was just under 400 lbs.
This was made to slid into his reciever hitch, with two stablizer tabs that fastened to the underside of the stock bumper so it was very rock solid when mounted, the sides and top had 1/8" plate that covered the stock bumper. looks great, works better. (he uses his fork lift to take it on and off at the beginning and end of season)
If I could figure out why the picture posting thing won't work for me, I could post some pics. of it, just for the fun of it. I think it's helpful to see photos of the different ideas everyone has, gives me head scratchen material)


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> The subject of ballast sure gets interesting. LMAO.
> 
> My $.02. DetroitDan, it doesn't matter what size truck you are driving, how many tires it has or anything else. It is a simple matter of physics, which are laws of nature that cannot be changed on this planet. The placement of load in front, over, behind the wheels does matter on any size truck, the only difference is in the amount of weight we are talking about.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter how many tires it has? Or what size truck it is? Which planet are we talking about? I never said load placement is not important. In fact I said the opposite. Mostly all I said is that it should be behind the rear wheels and that I think some people use a lot more than necessary. 350# works for me. As I define a fulcrum, you would only have one axle and it would be in the middle of the truck, but never mind that. If I were to go to the scales and weigh my truck, I would do it with the plow down BECAUSE THAT'S HOW I PLOW. So where is the calculation for ballast now? Fisher doesnt give a ballast number for my truck on that website, but I did notice that they say NEVER to exceed 1000#. So if 1000# is their max, that must be for the biggest pickup in class, and do you really want to be maxed? If so, go right ahead.
Sorry if I've angered some of you. I seem to have a knack for doing that. I just wanted to give Calamari my opinion. But since I've been roundly slapped down by the people who know way more about everything than I do, I am going to back out of this thread now. Good luck Calamari.


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## Calamari (Oct 9, 2005)

*excellent info*

Great points and food for thought from all. Thanks.

I've found over the years that some people cannot stand when other's opinions are not the same as their own. That *is *the greatness of this site; the fact that all of this experience and knowledge of plowing, metal fabrication, etc is going to be helpful for someone like me who got lucky and can finally do what I want with a couple of extra bucks. All this stuff is going to help me get going *and *save me more than a few dollars.

Anyone have any cable TV or communications questions I'll be glad to help.  Other than, "How do I hook up my DVD player?"

One more question: DetroitDan, how come your not NashuaDan or Concorddan or even NorthConwayDan?


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## RamesesSnow23 (Jan 4, 2004)

Mick said:


> Not sure what you were looking at, but Chris recommended 1000# of ballast for a 3/4 ton or one ton with a 900 - 1000# plow. I'd say he was close. I use a Vbox loaded with sand/salt for ballast against a 9' Fisher.
> 
> But, if you want to get a definitive answer, go here and "fill in the blanks": http://www.fisherplows.com/ematch.asp


Thank You For the Clairification Mick:waving:

As said above you want an objective answer Ematch is the way considering you have a fisher.

We could debate it all day here as to what amount is optimal. I have plowed with a few different trucks and I find that all are best when running the full weight of the plow in the bed. Better for driving between accounts with the plow up and also makes the truck push better. These aspects have repeated themsealves everytime I have plowed with a truck set up this way thus I feel confident recommending that amount of ballest. At least this is somewhat worthwhile talking about as opposed to some of the topics I get going on sometimes

Detroitdan, 
I dont doubt that you know trucks, if 350 works ok for you, great.

However I get the sense that you think some of us are crazy with the amount of weight we add and or recommend. Take a look at the pictures of the truck in this thread http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=9114&highlight=John+DiMartin John says that he has 2700# in the back of a 3/4 ton with a we'll say around an 825# plow maybe. That truck does not look to be sagging or overstressed front or back. It looks balanced. Iam talking about the dodge by the way not the chevy but thats probley loaded to the same degree. If you want his email address, you can tell him you think hes doing something wrong. Better have your facts straight, he knows his stuff, I will trust him. So iam certaintly not crazy for saying 1000 in the bed of a 3/4 ton. It is not out of the relm of possibliliy to put a few tons in the beds of some 3/4 and 1 tons, just look at your axle ratings and GVWR. Fisher says dont use over 1000# for their plows that does not mean that that is the max a 3/4 or 1 ton can carry and still be within weight limits.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Detroitdan said:


> I'd like to add I think we were talking about little 4 wheel pickups, not commercial trucks like dump trucks that have 6 wheels and completely different load capacities and weight requirements. 6 wheelers have to have a lot of weight, because the weight they do have is divided up over 4 rear wheels.


This is the part I was referring to Dan. You are correct, once you get into a tandem axle (or more) truck, this all changes. But there is no difference between a 1 ton 4 wheel pickup and a 1 ton duallie pickup, other than _the amount_ of weight they spread out over 4 wheels instead of 2 wheels. The 'levers' or axles are all in the same place.

I was not referring to your statements about where to place the weight, just when you tried to differentiate between 4 wheel trucks and 6 wheel trucks.


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## The Boss (Oct 22, 2003)

There's times when I have a full pallet of salt sitting in my bed. 2500lbs. of ballast.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The Boss said:


> There's times when I have a full pallet of salt sitting in my bed. 2500lbs. of ballast.


Are you nuts? What are you thinking?   lolol


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## Dwan (Mar 24, 2004)

"This"

or some times a sander full, about 6000#

Rely I have a #1000 block of led fassened to the fraim rail under the bed , My wife leaves the bed at the shop so I had to atch the weight directly to the truck.


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## bigjoe871 (Feb 2, 2005)

What kind of bed is that...looks like the most versatile thing to have!


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## The Boss (Oct 22, 2003)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Are you nuts? What are you thinking?   lolol


It goes quick, lol.


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## Donny O. (Feb 11, 2005)

Calamari said:



> I have an f-250 w/PSD and 8' Fisher. I've seen many comments regarding ballast throughout the site, but haven't been able to find an explaination about it.
> 
> Is it needed to counter the weight the plow adds? If so, shouldn't it be placed as far back in the bed as possible?


i'm no ballast expert but I will make a comment on this. usualy the load is wanted back as far as possible to put the weight on the rear axle, but you really don't want to go behind it. the reason being is say while your driving on the street and go to make a corner and it's slippery....if the weight is behind the rear axle it will add to the gyro effect and make the ass end want to go sideways more than if it were right over the axle.

this not only goes for trucks but for anything even sports cars. the porsche 911 for example with it's rear engine....the car liked to swap ends when pushed around a corner.....so they put on bigger tires for more traction instead of jsut moving the engine forward!!


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Donny O. said:


> i'm no ballast expert but I will make a comment on this. usualy the load is wanted back as far as possible to put the weight on the rear axle, but you really don't want to go behind it. the reason being is say while your driving on the street and go to make a corner and it's slippery....if the weight is behind the rear axle it will add to the gyro effect and make the ass end want to go sideways more than if it were right over the axle.
> 
> this not only goes for trucks but for anything even sports cars. the porsche 911 for example with it's rear engine....the car liked to swap ends when pushed around a corner.....so they put on bigger tires for more traction instead of jsut moving the engine forward!!


I've driven my friends Porsche 911E, and yes they are a$$ heavy and if you put 100# to 150#lb in the front bonnet the car is more balanced..
But dont' forget the plow on front of your truck off sets the "gyro effect" ?????
If you have a plow on the front and the right amount of counterweight your truck will be ballanced and it will not be prone to swaping ends.


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## dirt digger (Feb 27, 2005)

bigjoe871 said:


> What kind of bed is that...looks like the most versatile thing to have!


It looks like that bed is a hook-lift. They're pretty neat because you can really hook anything to them. Dumpbodies, dumpsters, flatbeds, anything that is specially designed for a hooklift truck.

http://www.cascon.us/Stellar%20Light%20Duty%20New.htm


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## golden arches (Oct 30, 2003)

This is a very good thread. 

Ballast in the bed is critical to proper control of the vehicle when front loaded with the plow, frame and pump. (Depending on your personal diet, you may be a contributing fractor to weight distribution or changes year to year! I know it does for me.)

We also use 5 gal pails filled with sand. Weigh about 70# each, lids keep the sand dry for the eventual use to get unstuck, and stack nicely when no plow is on the truck. 

Be sure that whatever you use is over the rear wheels and locked in. 

If you want to get a good idea of how your rig is set up, take it to a scales and find out true axle weights with and without the plow. Even a seasoned operator will be surprised to see the effects the weight and weight distribution has on the truck.


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## Donny O. (Feb 11, 2005)

SnoFarmer said:


> I've driven my friends Porsche 911E, and yes they are a$$ heavy and if you put 100# to 150#lb in the front bonnet the car is more balanced..
> But dont' forget the plow on front of your truck off sets the "gyro effect" ?????
> If you have a plow on the front and the right amount of counterweight your truck will be ballanced and it will not be prone to swaping ends.


I disagree....the farther the weight is from the center the worse the gyro effect will be....balanced front to back or not. there is a reason auto makers have been pushing the wheels closer to the corner of vehicles....handling. I realise your not going to be hitting the twisties in a plow truck but the same principles apply......but i'm no physisist either.....i'm an electronics geek!!


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## Killswitch (Aug 9, 2005)

SnoFarmer said:


> I've driven my friends Porsche 911E, and yes they are a$$ heavy and if you put 100# to 150#lb in the front bonnet the car is more balanced..
> But dont' forget the plow on front of your truck off sets the "gyro effect" ?????
> If you have a plow on the front and the right amount of counterweight your truck will be ballanced and it will not be prone to swaping ends.


Lmao....Funny cuz I was talking to a customer today with a mint 92 Toyota MR2 he's having to use as a daily driver now and its midengined. He says it handles like ass in the snow and I told him to toss in some sandbags in the front trunk.


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## Donny O. (Feb 11, 2005)

Killswitch said:


> Lmao....Funny cuz I was talking to a customer today with a mint 92 Toyota MR2 he's having to use as a daily driver now and its midengined. He says it handles like ass in the snow and I told him to toss in some sandbags in the front trunk.


the mid engine isn't as bad on corners as rear engine is though. i will quote what motor trend says in it's article about the new porche cayman S....comparing it to a 911.

with the birth of the 911, porche crafted both icon and conundrum.
although forces have tried to kill it numerous times throughout it's 40-plus-year history, stuttgarts definitive sports car thrives and prospers. yet all the while it's been fighting physics. it's equally iconic powerplant is parked mostly out back, creating a famous and infamous rearward weight bias. early 911 drivers combated the *pendulum effect* with a much-revised driving style("if she starts to come around, don't lift off the gas...."). ongoing suspention upgrades, generational redesignes, ever-wider tires and the addition of electronic stability systems have all but eradicated the 911's innate urge to swap ends. but the fact remains: porsche created it's own problem and has spent the last four decades fixing it.

the cayman S shows up with no such baggage. the powerplant is placed low and just over the drivers's right shoulder for the same amidships weight balance enjoyed by the worlds most sophisticated race cars. the engine-as-pendulum issue never needs fixing-because it doens't exist.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Donny O. said:


> I disagree....the farther the weight is from the center the worse the gyro effect will be....balanced front to back or not. there is a reason auto makers have been pushing the wheels closer to the corner of vehicles....handling. I realise your not going to be hitting the twisties in a plow truck but the same principles apply......but i'm no physisist either.....i'm an electronics geek!!


First, what are you watching on T.V. (back to the future)?
Are you driving a Deloren time machine? (LMC)
What Gyro?I looked all over for it and could not find it. Are we plowing with motorcycles now?
The reason the auto makers moved the wheels out to the corners on small cars is to improve the ride quantity & handling, Unlike your truck that already has a large wheel base.
you should invent a thread gyro to keep this thread on track.. Any way... unless you plow with a Porsche your point is moot.
There are different ways to add weight to the back of you truck, call it ballast, counter weight, whatever you like, the bottom line is you need it..
We are not pulling your leg!! read the posts from the people who have been plowing for awhile, it doesn't take a scientist to figure it out just some common sense.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer, handling is a direct result of center of gravity, both up and down and side to side, so moving the wheels out to the corners will help overcome a higher center of gravity or off balance from front to back. 

The gyro effect is referring to the spinning that will occur if the rear end of the vehicle decides to replace the front end. It isn't going to happen just once, but several times until you lose momentum by slowing down or hitting something.

Where you locate the ballast is quite simple. As I stated, I am not an engineer or math major so the following numbers will be used as examples--NOT mathematical facts. Let's use the 50% of plow weight for ballast as an example:

If you only have 150# of ballast, but your plow weighs 500#, you will be better off placing that ballast behind the rear axle because of the leverage it will provide, i.e., it will create a greater ballast effect than placing it over the axle. Just like your front plow puts more weight on the front axle than what the plow actually weighs because of how far it hangs in front of the axle. If you have 250# of ballast, then put it right over the axle if you want to follow the recommendations. 

Personally, because a truck is not 50/50 balanced before you even add a plow to it, I am going to either put more than the recommended ballast or put it behind the rear axle to counteract the front plow hanging 3-4' in front of the front axle.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark, 
your info is right on the mark, lol
keep up the good work


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Donny O. said:


> i'm no ballast expert but the gyro effect and make the ass end want to go sideways more than if it were right over the axle.
> this only goes sports cars. the porsche 911 for example with it's rear engine....the car liked to swap ends when pushed around a corner!!


 I saw this and thought of you lol

My bad


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## Killswitch (Aug 9, 2005)

Ha.....awsome pic.

And all this talk about gyros is makin me hungry!


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## Donny O. (Feb 11, 2005)

Killswitch said:


> Ha.....awsome pic.
> 
> And all this talk about gyros is makin me hungry!


I jsut got back from a place called 'Luke's' great gyros..no tomato and extra sauce baby!!!


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## makplow (Nov 2, 2005)

*just an idea*

In regards to your ballaste question. I own a small fence co. So I have a weather guard tool box mounted to a trac rac. I`m going to slide the tool box over the wheels and give it a try.


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## TRUE TURF LAWN (Sep 12, 2005)

I Have A 4x4 Truck So I Dont Use One. I Have Plowed For Many Years And Have Yet To Get Stuck. Its The Operater Not The Truck.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

You must be awesome. Does that mean that the rest of us who get stuck occasionally, and use varying amounts of ballast, are inferior operators?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Detroitdan said:


> You must be awesome. Does that mean that the rest of us who get stuck occasionally, and use varying amounts of ballast, are inferior operators?


When I grow up I want to be just like him.

Just out of curiosity, since when is 6 years many? Assuming you started plowing at 16.


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## Acmemechanic (Aug 27, 2005)

*Re Ballast*

I got a 1999 f-800 and with out 3/4 load of 3/4 stone or the big sander loaded it wont climb out of the yard she parks in.Only the business owner or me can drive it with the fisher m/c 10 footer.I think of it as Job Security!!!!!!:yow!:


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Mark, I agree. You and I must not be very good operators or know what we're doing. I've got a 1/2 ton and a one ton and plow with both. Both are 4x4 and I've had both stuck (but not at the same time). 

If you've never been stuck, you've never really plowed snow.


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## Donny O. (Feb 11, 2005)

Mick said:


> Mark, I agree. You and I must not be very good operators or know what we're doing. I've got a 1/2 ton and a one ton and plow with both. Both are 4x4 and I've had both stuck (but not at the same time).
> 
> If you've never been stuck, you've never really plowed snow.


i got stuck once last year but it WAS driver error. part mine part the guy that plowed the snow before me. he didn't push the snow back far enough and it half melted then froze again. so i pushed snow up to it then raised the plow to push the top back a bit....well went to far and the front tires sank into the pile and I got hung up on the plow frame and coudn't back out. so the guy plowing the lot next to me pulled me out about 3 feet and I took it from there. i didn't have enough ballast in the back to give me traction to the tires that were actually on the ground!!!

jsut to add to the story cuz i like to do that!! about 10 min later his nice Ford truck broke down and he asked me to plow this other lot for him and he rode with me. he was amazed at how much snow my beater chevy truck pushed and stacked....specialy after he had to pull me out of being stuck!!


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## mcfly89 (Nov 2, 2005)

cja1987 said:


> Thank You For the Clairification Mick:waving:
> 
> As said above you want an objective answer Ematch is the way considering you have a fisher.
> 
> ...


even the most argumentative of folks wouldnt dispute the fact that a truck might push snow better with more weight in the bed (regardless of where its placed)...but the added weight isnt all positive. as the points were clearly and logically laid out by a previous poster...on an icy road for instance...a truck with 2700# in the bed WILL NOT stop quicker than the same truck with the same setup with only 350# in the bed of the truck. that fact is not one that can be argued successfully by any of you...again, its simple physics folks. another law you may be familiar with (if you have any plowing experience at all) is the one that states...the slicker the roads are...the more idiots are tempted to pull out mere seconds in front of you. personally i will use approx 3-400 lbs BEHIND the rear axle in my 88 f250. this provides me enough ballast for the amount of snow i am pushing (HUGE factor noone has mentioned yet) yet still allow me to stop in a reasonable distance when the (yet unnamed) idiot pulls out right in front of me.


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## RamesesSnow23 (Jan 4, 2004)

mcfly89 said:


> even the most argumentative of folks wouldnt dispute the fact that a truck might push snow better with more weight in the bed (regardless of where its placed)...but the added weight isnt all positive. as the points were clearly and logically laid out by a previous poster...on an icy road for instance...a truck with 2700# in the bed WILL NOT stop quicker than the same truck with the same setup with only 350# in the bed of the truck. that fact is not one that can be argued successfully by any of you...again, its simple physics folks. another law you may be familiar with (if you have any plowing experience at all) is the one that states...the slicker the roads are...the more idiots are tempted to pull out mere seconds in front of you. personally i will use approx 3-400 lbs BEHIND the rear axle in my 88 f250. this provides me enough ballast for the amount of snow i am pushing (HUGE factor noone has mentioned yet) yet still allow me to stop in a reasonable distance when the (yet unnamed) idiot pulls out right in front of me.


Good points about stopping distance, I do agree.

Personally, I weigh my risks and benefits (thats not to say you or anyone else does not) I find that it is helpful to have the amount of ballest I use. Mainly because I find that neither I nor the truck can really "feel" 300 LBS. I see more benefits with higher amounts of ballest. Stopping distance is a risk but its more of a relative thing. If something is beyond my control, its beyond my control (ie some one pulling or sliding in front of me when iam 2 seconds away). You understand what type of vehicle your operating and under what conditions and adjust driving style accordingly. I drive completely different with the plow on, ballest and in snowy conditons because the vehicle is completely different. I slow down to a crawl when there is potential for someone to jump out infront of me, increase following distance and be more aware overall. Of course there is still plenty that is far beyond my control.

The point of the above is not to disprove or argue with the previous post, I agree 100%. Iam just saying that overall, you need to compensate for the fact that you are carrying more weight, as long as its legal, this is doable as you are operating within the specs that the manufacturer of the truck has layed out. Its about balance in every sense of the word, that includes everything, braking, traction, handling, plowing, turning, etc. Thats why it is a topic that people are going to have various opionions and perferences on which is fine, in fact its good.

As far as the stuck thing, I dont use ballest to prevent me from getting stuck nor do I use it because i have been a poor enough operator to end up stuck in the past. I use it to help push the snow, take stress of the truck and improve the handling of the truck in the snow. The whole "you guys suck at plowing so you need tons of ballest" argument is invalid and only someone who does not truely understand plowing would use this argument; and if you have never been stuck, you probley do not understand plowing.


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## The Boss (Oct 22, 2003)

I think it's about time this thread died.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The Boss said:


> I think it's about time this thread died.


Amen, brother.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

The Boss said:


> I think it's about time this thread died.


LOL!! it was dying , no one was posting for a couple of Days, then I posted that pic and it took off again!!! 
Once the horse is dead, it does no good to keep on kicking it!!
just add some weight it will be O.K. trust me


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

mcfly89 said:


> even the most argumentative of folks wouldnt dispute the fact that a truck might push snow better with more weight in the bed (regardless of where its placed)...but the added weight isnt all positive. as the points were clearly and logically laid out by a previous poster...on an icy road for instance...a truck with 2700# in the bed WILL NOT stop quicker than the same truck with the same setup with only 350# in the bed of the truck. that fact is not one that can be argued successfully by any of you...


A properly loaded truck will stop faster than an empty truck on slippery roads.
Why does it push snow better? because of the weight!! It has more traction right? soooo? if it has more traction, it should also stop better...
yes, it does take longer to stop a heaver truck on DRY roads.
but on slippery roads no. just like it says on those #70 sand tubes "improves traction", how? By adding weight to your vehicle. I don't see the heavy state plows sliding down the streets either. It just takes some common sense, slow down it's slippery out there..

I couldn't stop posting!! my logic is to light He doesn't know me very well does he??


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

cja1987, I agree 100%. More weight does increase stopping distance. When I'm driving a dump with 6 tons of salt in the back in a snow storm I dont drive the same or use the same stopping distances as when I'm driving my PU truck on a dry road I put weight on for plowing though. My truck plows better with a crap load of weight back there. Actually fisher recomends 1000K's IIRC and I think I run about that. I run that or maybe a bit over that behind the rear wheels. My trucks ass end dosnt squat much and it handles fine. I ussualy run my ballast close to all winter.

I will say *knock on wood* I have never been officialy stuck were I needed someone to yank me out. I have had a few times were I had to work quite some time to free myself and once were I kept having to turn on the spreader in a dump and back a bit more and then slide back down......that incline probably had enough salt on it by the time I made it out that the _salt_ had to be plowed off LOL

Maybe its just that I have a Chevy Duramax but with a truck and plow that weighs a bit over 8k or so without ballast.....I dont think it will notice a few more hundered pounds difference in ballast either way But stability and weight on the front end 500#'s makes a BIG difference


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## firstclasslawn (Sep 5, 2005)

*Ballast*

ITS ALL PERSONAL PREFERANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There I took care of it guys. I will tell you how much I have though. Well lets see, on the front of my truck i have a 797lb Boss 8ft Superduty straight blade. and on the back I have a home build backblade (rear plow) that has to weight somewhere in the range of 600lbs (all 3/16" steel!!!!!!) Then I have a salter and usually close to 1400lbs of salt......HERES SOME MATH FOR YOU!!!! THATS 2000lbs of BALAST. Sure my truck takes longer to stop than yours, but mine will push heck of a lot more snow than your too! Ecpesially doing those private neighborhoods that i do with HUGE hills. So detriot dan.............DONT SLIDE OUT IN FRONT OF ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

A salter isn't ballast, and neither is a rear plow. Sure they are heavy and that may work to your advantage, but I believe ballast is dead weight used specifically to put more weight on the rear wheels, and slightly unload the front axle. I highly doubt that your truck could push more snow than mine. That's all I have to say on the matter, this is getting childish.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

update: I have decided to put a Blizzard 810 on my K3500 dually. With the weight of the plow and the diesel up front, a longbed and extended cab with DRW, I have no chance of keeping the rearend planted. So I have calculated that I need 1200 lbs of sharp cheddar cheese. I wanted to go with Swiss cheese, but I had a lot of trouble factoring in the holes. I still need to get a price on Provolone, thats my favorite, but I'm sure it will be cost prohibitive. So it looks like I'll be going with the sharp white. You guys that use upwards of 1000 lbs of Velveeta are out of your freakin' minds. No way is that much processed fake cheese necessary. I say real cheese all the way.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Detroitdan said:


> update: I have decided to put a Blizzard 810 on my K3500 dually. With the weight of the plow and the diesel up front, a longbed and extended cab with DRW, I have no chance of keeping the rearend planted. So I have calculated that I need 1200 lbs of sharp cheddar cheese. I wanted to go with Swiss cheese, but I had a lot of trouble factoring in the holes. I still need to get a price on Provolone, thats my favorite, but I'm sure it will be cost prohibitive. So it looks like I'll be going with the sharp white. You guys that use upwards of 1000 lbs of Velveeta are out of your freakin' minds. No way is that much processed fake cheese necessary. I say real cheese all the way.


 ROFLMAO... 
How many gallons of wine would that be?

I just can't stop I have to much traction from all of the ballast-counter -weight -sand -salt- snowblower, cheese,who cares it's all (sprung weight or dead Weight) any way! any way it's my inner child that loves plowing so much so there...


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

I wouldnt say a salter is really ballast, the way its weight is carried it dosnt pull weight off the front end. JMO but one of the requirements to be considered ballast.

A pull plow on the otherhand will work as ballast, it is weight and its behind the rear axel. Its ballast that can make you $$$ too  

JMO

I am not arguing with you. I just want proper info out there for guys to look at so they can make a decision for themselves.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

From the dictionary:

ballast
ballast[1,noun]ballast[2,transitive verb]

Main Entry: 1bal·last 
Pronunciation: 'ba-l&st
Function: noun
*********: probably from Low German, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Danish & Swedish barlast ballast; perhaps akin to Old English bær bare & to Old English hlæst load, hladan to load -- more at LADE
1 : a heavy substance used to improve the stability and control the draft of a ship or the ascent of a balloon
2 : *something that gives stability *(as in character or conduct)
3 : gravel or broken stone laid in a railroad bed or used in making concrete
4 : a device used to provide the starting voltage or to stabilize the current in a circuit (as of a fluorescent lamp)
- in ballast of a ship : having only ballast for a load

The 2 yard sander and sand in it on a one ton provide for a lot of stability against the force of 9' Fisher plow. Without the sander, the rear wheels hardly stay on the ground.


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## firstclasslawn (Sep 5, 2005)

*Tailgate*

By the way its a tailgate spreader and i carry about 1200lbs in bags in the bed. Therefore i would call it ballast.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

what I meant was ballast as we were referring to it is weight added only for the purpose of balancing out the truck. A sander or spreader is equipment used for a specific purpose that just happens to assist with weight distribution. It's like a bonus. I dont think I would call it ballast unless you dont use it for sanding, just for weight. Anyway, who cares. I'm tired. I'm so very tired. I ate too much cheese.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

I mounted my plow to the back of the truck and I plow using my mirrors. Dont need any ballast. I need heated mirrors though.


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## genrock (Nov 7, 2005)

Salt or sand but what I use is around 500-700 lbs of cement parking space forms they are cheap fit right inside the bed behind the wheels not on top of the wheels as some have said and you can find them in most abandoned parking lots if you dont want to buy them.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

Detroitdan said:


> I mounted my plow to the back of the truck and I plow using my mirrors. Dont need any ballast. I need heated mirrors though.


LOL, now theres an idea....


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## golden arches (Oct 30, 2003)

> Genrock posted: "and you can find them in most abandoned parking lots if you dont want to buy them."


Genrock, that sounds like a good idea until the owner comes looking for them. 

Be careful - even if an "abandoned" parking lot, they belong to someone. What may be abandoned to you may be an asset to someone else.


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## genrock (Nov 7, 2005)

Did I say that shshshshs dont tell btw I live in india and plow dirt for the local natives.


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## Kramer (Nov 13, 2004)

I believe there is some influence on your anti-lock braking system with regard to having some level of weight balance in your truck (front end doesn't drop too much...rear end isn't too light).



This is usually referenced in the plow owners manual.


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