# Ridiculous residential rates



## Wplc

Hey Guys. A normal double drive plowed for the season goes for around $200 around here. We have about 25 snow events. That is less than $10 per plow. What would you guys do if you were in my position? Join the crowd, and try to become as efficient as possible, or do something different? I have been snowplowing on my own for the last few years, and have about 120 drives signed up at the going rate.


----------



## snoworks1

I would try and get 300 total driveways at the $200.00. Make sure they are close together. Switch from the plow truck to the AG tractor with an inverted blower and don't look back.


----------



## Wplc

snoworks1;1718499 said:


> I would try and get 300 total driveways at the $200.00. Make sure they are close together. Switch from the plow truck to the AG tractor with an inverted blower and don't look back.


Thanks for the reply. My 120 drives are pretty close together. One truck can do them all in 6 hours, as I have a 16 foot ebling swing wing on the back of it, so I think that would be just as fast as a blower. It is just so cut-throat around here, and its almost like its a race to the bottom.


----------



## PLOWTRUCK

Unless they are right next to each other your probably spinning your wheels. I do a condo development with 48 driveways which are 12 x 22 on average. It takes me about 45 minutes to an hour to do them all. On another note 25 events for an average of 70 or so inches doesn't seem right. We get about 5 inches less per year and we average 15 events. still pretty cheap though.


----------



## Wplc

PLOWTRUCK;1718556 said:


> Unless they are right next to each other your probably spinning your wheels. I do a condo development with 48 driveways which are 12 x 22 on average. It takes me about 45 minutes to an hour to do them all. On another note 25 events for an average of 70 or so inches doesn't seem right. We get about 5 inches less per year and we average 15 events. still pretty cheap though.


Grand Rapids gets lake effect snow from Lake Michigan. Our trigger depth, along with every other company around here is 1.5 inches. So there are many times where we are going out because 2 inches of lake effect dumped on us.
I am not sure what you mean by "spinning your wheels" But normal double drives here are 16x70.


----------



## PLOWTRUCK

Meant at those prices you may be working for nothing, not getting ahead. Seems pretty cheap to me unless they are very close together. I would do drives that cheap if I had about 20 them in one development. Otherwise it's cheap. Look at it this way

120 drives at 10 per = 1200 per storm 
You say it 6 hours to do the route so,
That's 200 per hour for you and your truck. can you make money with that? And you have your answer


----------



## BUFF

Does you're seasonal include any shoveling or is it strictly plowing? 
At $10 a push I think you're way low, also I think your 20drives an hour is off as it ends up being 3min per driveway with no transit time. I see you have a 16ft Ebling but you still have to push the snow after you drag it.

I have several resi's that are 16X24 and have about 30ft of side walk. For 1-6" its $35.00, 6-12 its $45.00, from start to finish they take 8min ea 1-6" and 10min 6-10". BTW we average 20 pushes a season.


----------



## Herm Witte

I have been very frustrated with residential pricing in the Grand Rapids area. There are way too many residential snowplow operators in this area plowing at rates that were out there 10 or more years ago. Often these operators do not service their clients in a timely manner when the event is a bit more significant in nature. In addition proper plowing procedures are often ignored. FYI, it's January 11 and we have in excess of 20 visits under our belt. At $200.00 I hope the op does not run out of money.


----------



## daddy daniels'

Wplc;1718437 said:


> Hey Guys. A normal double drive plowed for the season goes for around $200 around here. We have about 25 snow events. That is less than $10 per plow. What would you guys do if you were in my position? Join the crowd, and try to become as efficient as possible, or do something different? I have been snowplowing on my own for the last few years, and have about 120 drives signed up at the going rate.





Wplc;1718534 said:


> Thanks for the reply. My 120 drives are pretty close together. One truck can do them all in 6 hours, as I have a 16 foot ebling swing wing on the back of it, so I think that would be just as fast as a blower. It is just so cut-throat around here, and its almost like its a race to the bottom.


I don't think $160 per hour is a bad rate at all! There are sub's who do the same work for $75 per hour. It seems the benchmark for successful companies in your area try to stay around $125 per billable truck hour, so that would allow you to make a maximum of 32 visits if you use that criteria.


----------



## Wplc

PLOWTRUCK;1718601 said:


> Meant at those prices you may be working for nothing, not getting ahead. Seems pretty cheap to me unless they are very close together. I would do drives that cheap if I had about 20 them in one development. Otherwise it's cheap. Look at it this way
> 
> 120 drives at 10 per = 1200 per storm
> You say it 6 hours to do the route so,
> That's 200 per hour for you and your truck. can you make money with that? And you have your answer


If I was making 200 per hour I would not be complaining about the snowplow rates. The going rate for subs is $60 an hour around here. I do have 35+ in one development and many surrounding it, but I would be happy to make 80 an hour at this point.


----------



## Wplc

BUFF;1718621 said:


> Does you're seasonal include any shoveling or is it strictly plowing?
> At $10 a push I think you're way low, also I think your 20drives an hour is off as it ends up being 3min per driveway with no transit time. I see you have a 16ft Ebling but you still have to push the snow after you drag it.
> 
> I have several resi's that are 16X24 and have about 30ft of side walk. For 1-6" its $35.00, 6-12 its $45.00, from start to finish they take 8min ea 1-6" and 10min 6-10". BTW we average 20 pushes a season.


I can do a driveway in 1 min with my ebling. It takes me 30 sec to back up and make one pass. Then all I have to do is stack with a v-blade which takes 2 passes. Many companies around here just spread in the road, but that is illegal, so I don't do that too much unless I am really behind.
I wish I could charge higher prices, but there aren't many selling points where you can be different then the other snowplowing company, so I am pretty much stuck at the going rate.


----------



## Wplc

Herm Witte;1718639 said:


> I have been very frustrated with residential pricing in the Grand Rapids area. There are way too many residential snowplow operators in this area plowing at rates that were out there 10 or more years ago. Often these operators do not service their clients in a timely manner when the event is a bit more significant in nature. In addition proper plowing procedures are often ignored. FYI, it's January 11 and we have in excess of 20 visits under our belt. At $200.00 I hope the op does not run out of money.


Only thing that will save me this winter is the fact that my truck is a diesel, and it only takes me $50 to go through my route. I also have two other trucks subbed out, that make me about $150 profit each per night, so I think I will be fine this winter.


----------



## Wplc

daddy daniels';1718727 said:


> I don't think $160 per hour is a bad rate at all! There are sub's who do the same work for $75 per hour. It seems the benchmark for successful companies in your area try to stay around $125 per billable truck hour, so that would allow you to make a maximum of 32 visits if you use that criteria.


Subs work for $60 here..lol. Everything is cheaper in Grand Rapids.


----------



## nepatsfan

I would stay in bed


----------



## MajorDave

nepatsfan;1718741 said:


> I would stay in bed


x2 LOL haha


----------



## Bossman 92

Wplc;1718738 said:


> Only thing that will save me this winter is the fact that my truck is a diesel, and it only takes me $50 to go through my route. I also have two other trucks subbed out, that make me about $150 profit each per night, so I think I will be fine this winter.


You sub 2 trucks out for the night and only make $150 profit? I would stay in bed also.


----------



## Wplc

Bossman 92;1718859 said:


> You sub 2 trucks out for the night and only make $150 profit? I would stay in bed also.


$150 each, 300 total after paying employees, gas, repairs, insurance, etc. I didn't choose the rates around here.


----------



## Glenn Lawn Care

This is why I don't do seasonals, it seems like they get cheaper every year. The best way is to charge by the amount of snow.


----------



## SnoFarmer

I wouldn't get out of bed for a $200 seasonal.
$2k with a heavy snow clause and I want to have more drive in the immediate area to cut travel time.

so,,, you can do a drive in one minute>

Does that mean you only charge $10?
You need a minimum rate.
It costs money to equip a truck/tractor and to have a competent operator.
Your Ins costs didn't go down because production went up did it?

or should you slow down and charge more?


I think you might be plowing for beer money at best?

The incremental billing model leads to future arguments with the home owner that results in nonpayment.
Go seasonal with a storm clause or
per push with a storm clause.
jmo.

I try to obtain $120hr,min


----------



## Bossman 92

Let me ask this. Do most guys price a drive for the season, per event, per increment, or per push? We only do 1 drive so I don't know.


----------



## SnoFarmer

90% per push
10% seasonal

Both on a yearly contract bases with a heavy snow/storm clause.

Incremental,
Are you going to drive to your clients drive and measure the snow?
because they are and they are taking the lowest reading they can.
While your looking for the deepest place to measure.

While some go off of what the local airport gets but as we know snow depths vary greatly.

some still go incremental and do well, it never worked for us, it was a argument and you had to chase your money.
jmo


----------



## Jguck25

at 10 dollars per driveway my plow and all my equipment would be on craigslist. i would stick to summer work and save for the winter months. that is ridiculous. and thats if you have a normal year, just a few more storms and youre down to like 6 dollars a drive.

i did the math, and 200 a season and 25 pushes is 8 dollars a drive not 10..


----------



## Herm Witte

Wplc;1718738 said:


> Only thing that will save me this winter is the fact that my truck is a diesel, and it only takes me $50 to go through my route. I also have two other trucks subbed out, that make me about $150 profit each per night, so I think I will be fine this winter.


One transmission, $3,000.00 or some where in that neigborhood. There goes your profit on one truck. Where do you place the snow? Ebling or not you can not plow a drive, place the snow on the clients property which is a legal requirement, and make sure the street is tidy in one minute. You work in a demanding, stressful environment and you give your work away.


----------



## Wplc

I get that the pricing is crazy cheap, but I already knew that before I posted. There are 10 plus companies within 4 miles of me that offer seasonal prices of $200 for the average drive. If I raised my prices even $50, I wouldn't get any jobs. I am thinking about quitting next year, but was wondering what you guys think I should do different, if anything to make a profit in this ****** market. No need to tell me my prices are low because I have known that for a while. Only way I would stay in business right now is to get 400 drives very very close to each other and do them with 2 trucks. That is 80k and after expenses I would probably be at a 50k profit which is pretty good money.


----------



## Wplc

Herm Witte;1718966 said:


> One transmission, $3,000.00 or some where in that neigborhood. There goes your profit on one truck. Where do you place the snow? Ebling or not you can not plow a drive, place the snow on the clients property which is a legal requirement, and make sure the street is tidy in one minute. You work in a demanding, stressful environment and you give your work away.


Like I said above, many companies distribute it in the street. If I have a lot of drives in an area, I pull everything out and pile it later.


----------



## Wplc

Jguck25;1718944 said:


> at 10 dollars per driveway my plow and all my equipment would be on craigslist. i would stick to summer work and save for the winter months. that is ridiculous. and thats if you have a normal year, just a few more storms and youre down to like 6 dollars a drive.
> 
> i did the math, and 200 a season and 25 pushes is 8 dollars a drive not 10..


I said it was less than $10.


----------



## Herm Witte

Advce is as follows; elist the aid of an accountant to help you set your rates. You already mentioned you are thinking of quiting because of the crazy pricing. Provide a service that is better than the rest, not like the rest. Feel free to pm me sometime, I am open to chatting.


----------



## Wplc

Herm Witte;1719050 said:


> Advce is as follows; elist the aid of an accountant to help you set your rates. You already mentioned you are thinking of quiting because of the crazy pricing. Provide a service that is better than the rest, not like the rest. Feel free to pm me sometime, I am open to chatting.


I know my costs, and am actually going to college for finance. I can be more prompt or clean their driveway better, but no one is going to pay me $100 higher then the going market rate, just because of the small details.


----------



## 32vld

There people that will pay for a better job done. It takes time to find them.

Problem is you and your competition wants work so bad that you all have low balled the price down to nothing.

Because a customer does not want to pay does not mean that you have work cheap.


----------



## MattR

Wplc;1719057 said:


> I know my costs, and am actually going to college for finance. I can be more prompt or clean their driveway better, but no one is going to pay me $100 higher then the going market rate, just because of the small details.


I can tell you something that you will not learn in college. Some people do value the extra details and appreciate old fashioned customer service.

I live in a farming community where everybody and their neighbor either owns a tractor or a plow truck, yet I still get plowing jobs. I make sure I clean all those small windrows up nice and tidy, make sure the mailbox is nice and easy for the mail man/lady to access, and even do a follow up apron cleaning if needed. I send out xmas cards too, no money in them, just a friendly holiday greeting. Because I do all of this, I have customers referring their friends to me, even the mail lady has brought me a few referrals because of the quality work I do. My prices are not the lowest in my area either.

So you can either keep trying to compete with those that are low priced and dump the snow in the street, or you can better your own business by changing the small things. The best thing is that the customers that appreciate all the small details, are the customers that most people want.


----------



## areoseek

Look at it this way, at least you don't have erie pricing. ..


----------



## Neige

Wplc;1718437 said:


> Hey Guys. A normal double drive plowed for the season goes for around $200 around here. We have about 25 snow events. That is less than $10 per plow. What would you guys do if you were in my position? Join the crowd, and try to become as efficient as possible, or do something different? I have been snowplowing on my own for the last few years, and have about 120 drives signed up at the going rate.


That equals $8.00 a plow or $160.00 an hr. for a pickup I think thats still very well paid. Even if you were to go out for another 15 events that would make it $5.00 a plow or $100.00 an hour understanding what you pay your subs thats still 83% more then what your subs make.



Wplc;1718534 said:


> Thanks for the reply. My 120 drives are pretty close together. One truck can do them all in 6 hours, as I have a 16 foot ebling swing wing on the back of it, so I think that would be just as fast as a blower. It is just so cut-throat around here, and its almost like its a race to the bottom.


Clearing a drive in 1 minuet is a very quick time. If ever you have a chance I would love to see a video of you clearing a drive. I am always looking for ways to do drives more efficiently. You mention you have a tight route, but you are spending over 60% of your time going from site to site.



Wplc;1719025 said:


> I get that the pricing is crazy cheap, but I already knew that before I posted. There are 10 plus companies within 4 miles of me that offer seasonal prices of $200 for the average drive. If I raised my prices even $50, I wouldn't get any jobs. I am thinking about quitting next year, but was wondering what you guys think I should do different, if anything to make a profit in this ****** market. No need to tell me my prices are low because I have known that for a while. Only way I would stay in business right now is to get 400 drives very very close to each other and do them with 2 trucks. That is 80k and after expenses I would probably be at a 50k profit which is pretty good money.


I agree charging $50.00 more then the competition when you are a newish company, will get you no where. Your costs must be extremely low, if you can end up with 50 K profit on 80 K of work. I do very well in my market and I would be very happy with 30K.




Wplc;1719030 said:


> Like I said above, many companies distribute it in the street. If I have a lot of drives in an area, I pull everything out and pile it later.


I am sorry but I do not understand this statement. Are you saying you leave it in the street, and then go back later to pile it on the properties? Is this included in your 6 hr time frame?
Personally I find $200 for a season a very low price. Then again you proved with your above statement having 400 drives and making 50 K profit that $200 a drive can be very profitable. When pricing seasonal you cannot base it one season alone. Last year how many plowable events did you have? What is the 5 year average? I do not have the time now, but know your costs, decide how much profit you want to make, and then base your price on that. If $200 is less then what you came up with, then maybe residential snow is not for you. Please do not take anything I said as criticism, and look forward to seeing a video of your truck in action.


----------



## grandview

What you could do is take 1/3 of your contracts next year and give them a good bump up and see what happens and any new customers get the new going rate. This is the problem when you keep people a long time,it harder to keep pushing the price up on them because they are your guaranteed money.


----------



## Neige

There was some good stuff posted while I was writing my post, keep an open mind. Herm is a great and Honorable guy, take him up on his offer he has a wealth of experience


----------



## Wplc

Neige;1719115 said:


> That equals $8.00 a plow or $160.00 an hr. for a pickup I think thats still very well paid. Even if you were to go out for another 15 events that would make it $5.00 a plow or $100.00 an hour understanding what you pay your subs thats still 83% more then what your subs make.
> 
> Clearing a drive in 1 minuet is a very quick time. If ever you have a chance I would love to see a video of you clearing a drive. I am always looking for ways to do drives more efficiently. You mention you have a tight route, but you are spending over 60% of your time going from site to site.
> 
> I agree charging $50.00 more then the competition when you are a newish company, will get you no where. Your costs must be extremely low, if you can end up with 50 K profit on 80 K of work. I do very well in my market and I would


----------



## Mr.Markus

grandview;1719120 said:


> What you could do is take 1/3 of your contracts next year and give them a good bump up and see what happens and any new customers get the new going rate. This is the problem when you keep people a long time,it harder to keep pushing the price up on them because they are your guaranteed money.


Being a 1 man operation I completely agree with this. In a good year when I don't lose any critical accounts I "bump" the bottom 10% of my customers, If they leave I sign new at the higher rate. 
There are a few neige trained operators infiltrating my market, pre paid $400 for the season. Good guys, good businesses and Dutch.  It is not a city though and getting 2000-3000 drives is unheard of. 1 I know quite well is up to 200 after 5 yrs. My lowest paid in town drive grosses $226/mth 6 mths $1200 for the season plus tax. If I hired Neige I would make triple what he does to sit at home while he services the client. Need a salesman Paul...?


----------



## Wplc

Not sure what happened to my post above.

What I meant is if I have like 10 on a street, I do one pass and pull everything out. Than I go to the next drive. When this is done, I pile all at the same time. This is faster than piling snow right after you pull it out. I will take a video the next snowfall if I have time.

-	Last year we had 15 snow events. This year it will be closer to 35.

-	Insurance on two trucks/workers comp: $4000
Licensing: $300
Gas: $50 per night each ($100 total)x25=2500
Labor: 6 hrs @ 18 an hour=108x25=$2700x2=5400. Lets just say its 8k.
Repairs: 5k
=17000
400 drives x 200 = 80,000
Subtract 17000
=63k

-	Obviously there are a few expenses I am missing, some of the expenses would be higher and if we had a bad winter the profit would be lower, but that is my thinking. If we have a winter where it barely snows, which has happened, I could make 70k for 50 hours of work, or 1400 per hour.


----------



## grandview

And if you get 400 per dive you make the same and have more profit in half the time.


----------



## Wplc

That wouldn't work here.


----------



## grandview

Wplc;1719185 said:


> That wouldn't work here.


Someone needs to step up!


----------



## Eggie329

Yup, $200 is about the top around here too. Lots of people with snow blowers in the trunks of their cars charging $5 for a drive. Instead of sinking to the level of the competition, I've been advertising the going rate online and in flyers for just the drive an never getting out of the truck. I then make my profit by upselling for sidewalks and salting with some salsemanship! It's the best way to work around low ballers...


----------



## B-2 Lawncare

Holy crap that is cheap, we get $120 a month for up to seven pushes, then its a per push charge.


----------



## forkicks

Yea 200 per season is rough. but if every driveway is within a mile or 2 of each other and you do not get slammed with about 20 events or more than you can be profitable. It is all about keeping down your travel time. This will save you money and make the jobs that you are doing worth more. If you charge more but have to travel 5 to 10 miles to get there than you are making the same by driving up the cost to get there each time. It really is tough these days to get people to spend more but I do believe that for some if you can prove that your service is more reliable and professional than the guy just dropping the plow pushing and going than you will eventually be able to charge a little more. Most important is showing up. The next is doing a professional job by placing the snow that you push in the proper location and not just jammed up against the house or into the lawn digging it up. Take the time to if you have to to make the job look like a professional did it and not someone still hung over from the nite before from the beer money he makes. ( Don't be afraid to get out and shovel there is extra money in it and also if it is just to clean up what you pushed onto the walk way from the driveway when you plowed. this all makes a difference and sets you apart. ) Oh did I mention showing up.... cheap rates mean nothing to people if they never get plowed out until the next day. Or worse yet, get forgotten about. That should be a very important selling point, your reliability. It is tough these days and you do have to sell yourself well. Keep your appearance neat when you go to speak to them and also keep your equipment clean and neat. It does not have to be new or have the latest in plow equipment bolted up to it to make a good impression.


----------



## 94gt331

Wow $200 per month with up to 25pushes per season that's crazy, i thought I was cheap. Is the commercial plowing buisiness any better in your area, maybe you could just do commercial and get out or resedential. 
In my area we are lucky to get 6-10 plows per season and that would be a good season. I charge usually $25 to $35 per plow and I just charge per push, I would consider doing a seasonal contract per driveway at $250 per season because we usually dont get any more than 10 events tops per season but I stick to doing per plow prices. Good luck to you man!


----------



## excav8ter

I am curious of what you guys make per hour doing your "regular" job? I see a lot of complaining about low ballers and too cheap rates, but a lot of the prices we see are market driven to a degree too. What seems cheap in one area is expensive in another. I think the botom line is, YOU need to determine what YOU need/want to make per hour and go on that. This has been discussed here many times. 
With that said, I am disappointed in the going rates around the west Michigan area too, but with the right equipment and good planning, there is money to be made. Do I work too cheap? Am I a low baller? Many would probably think so, if I told you what I am doing some things for. But our accountant says, "whatever you're doing, keep doing it."


----------



## forkicks

excav8ter;1720012 said:


> I am curious of what you guys make per hour doing your "regular" job? I see a lot of complaining about low ballers and too cheap rates, but a lot of the prices we see are market driven to a degree too. What seems cheap in one area is expensive in another. I think the botom line is, YOU need to determine what YOU need/want to make per hour and go on that. This has been discussed here many times.
> With that said, I am disappointed in the going rates around the west Michigan area too, but with the right equipment and good planning, there is money to be made. Do I work too cheap? Am I a low baller? Many would probably think so, if I told you what I am doing some things for. But our accountant says, "whatever you're doing, keep doing it."


I would have to agree with you. People here seem to complain and jump on the low ball truck real fast. You can not really compare rates in a higher end state or county to a state that has a lower economy. Where I use to live in Jersey what I charge now would be low balling but than if I lived there I would be able to charge at a higher rate. You just need to adapt to your surroundings and do what you can to make money. my rates now are kind of in the middle and I definitely do base some of what I charge on the individual customer. Someone retired living on a fixed income can not possibly be compared to someone that has multiple homes and is making a very comfortable living. But I still do not over charge them just because of that. After all they are not stupid and a lot of customers that I have picked up lately are those who realized they were being taken advantage of. You still have to charge a fair price for where you are located. Remember it's not their fault that you felt you need to have a $60,000 truck and a $7,000 plus plow to do the same job that someone is doing with equipment that is half that cost. I would rather charge that retired person less and still get the job provided it was along a route that I was already doing. It all adds up at the end of the day. payup You just have to learn how to work smarter and not harder these days. Always did but even more so lately in order to survive.


----------



## peteo1

areoseek;1719113 said:


> Look at it this way, at least you don't have erie pricing. ..


Exactly what I was going to post:realmad:


----------



## JimMarshall

peteo1;1720551 said:


> Exactly what I was going to post:realmad:


Erie rates are ridiculous. I have a sub that does some work up there for me, and I have no clue how he is making any money at all, other than I think that he is billing for double the time that it actually takes sometimes.


----------



## peteo1

JimMarshall;1720703 said:


> Erie rates are ridiculous. I have a sub that does some work up there for me, and I have no clue how he is making any money at all, other than I think that he is billing for double the time that it actually takes sometimes.


Yeah it sucks for sure. We can all thank the likes of John Allin and Rich Arlington:realmad::realmad:


----------



## JimMarshall

peteo1;1721883 said:


> Yeah it sucks for sure. We can all thank the likes of John Allin and Rich Arlington:realmad::realmad:


I did not have any idea who either of those was until I googled. I guess they are the problem? Our rates down here in venango county aren't great, but they are better than that.


----------



## MajorDave

So what's the story with these guys?


----------



## Flawless440

Stop doing driveways.. Go out and bid some real contracts


----------



## excav8ter

There's money to be made doing driveways. You just have to be smart and have the right equipment.


----------



## 32vld

MajorDave;1722431 said:


> So what's the story with these guys?


Yes what's up with them. Google did not help.


----------



## grandview

32vld;1722588 said:


> Yes what's up with them. Google did not help.


It will just get deleted,just little a thong shot!


----------



## Plowtoy

32vld;1719072 said:


> There people that will pay for a better job done. It takes time to find them.


We have a winner!!!! This is what I have done and it works well. I am now a 1 man show (with backups). I have 12 residentials, a very short road and a small dentist office, all in high end neighborhoods, and all billed per push. Most of my residentials are 3/4 to 1.5 million $ homes. Yep, November and December were very profitable months for me and January is looking good too... 
Sure, my prices are higher than what can be found on CL in my area, but my clients know that they will be taken care of. 
It doesn't hurt my feelings when I tell somebody my price and they tell me they will find someone else to do it. I'm not working for free, period.


----------



## Herm Witte

Agreed, be better than the rest not like the rest.


----------



## Antlerart06

Wplc;1718437 said:


> Hey Guys. A normal double drive plowed for the season goes for around $200 around here. We have about 25 snow events. That is less than $10 per plow. What would you guys do if you were in my position? Join the crowd, and try to become as efficient as possible, or do something different? I have been snowplowing on my own for the last few years, and have about 120 drives signed up at the going rate.


That's same thing going on around here Seasonal rates on driveways 
That reason I don't look for drives anymore I have 6 and I make about 535 on them each storm
Only keep them since they are on the route and they pay well and they are owners of some the lots I do. Dr. and Teachers and one Millionaire

I know one guy does seasonal and one year made good money since didn't snow but the next year We set records of snow fall and once he figure he wasn't making anything He walk away and my old customer started to call me. I told them to bad I cant help
Back in 80s and 90s I had over 300 drives 
I go where the money is and these days there no money on drives in my area.
I have one Seasonal account rest per visit. I don't like to gamble and that's what you do with seasonal accounts.


----------



## Wplc

JimMarshall;1720703 said:


> Erie rates are ridiculous. I have a sub that does some work up there for me, and I have no clue how he is making any money at all, other than I think that he is billing for double the time that it actually takes sometimes.


What are you paying your sub hourly?


----------



## JimMarshall

Wplc;1722952 said:


> What are you paying your sub hourly?


$33.50 an hour


----------



## Wplc

forkicks;1720061 said:


> I would have to agree with you. People here seem to complain and jump on the low ball truck real fast. You can not really compare rates in a higher end state or county to a state that has a lower economy. Where I use to live in Jersey what I charge now would be low balling but than if I lived there I would be able to charge at a higher rate. You just need to adapt to your surroundings and do what you can to make money. my rates now are kind of in the middle and I definitely do base some of what I charge on the individual customer. Someone retired living on a fixed income can not possibly be compared to someone that has multiple homes and is making a very comfortable living. But I still do not over charge them just because of that. After all they are not stupid and a lot of customers that I have picked up lately are those who realized they were being taken advantage of. You still have to charge a fair price for where you are located. Remember it's not their fault that you felt you need to have a $60,000 truck and a $7,000 plus plow to do the same job that someone is doing with equipment that is half that cost. I would rather charge that retired person less and still get the job provided it was along a route that I was already doing. It all adds up at the end of the day. payup You just have to learn how to work smarter and not harder these days. Always did but even more so lately in order to survive.


Exactly. I would be a multi-millionaire right now if I could get the rates that some claim to get on this site. I would buy 40 trucks and make $200 an hour on each of them, or whatever crazy number they say they are getting.


----------



## yardguy28

Bossman 92;1718908 said:


> Let me ask this. Do most guys price a drive for the season, per event, per increment, or per push? We only do 1 drive so I don't know.


personally I price drives per push, per say.

2-4 inches is one push at x amount.

6-8 inches is 2 pushes at x amount per push.

10-12 inches is 3 pushes at x amount per push.

you get the idea.

I don't share the idea for any service I offer to charge a flat seasonal amount. I do the work and at the end of the month invoice for what work was performed. this avoids loosing money if services are required past the amount agreed upon.

take the OPs example of $200 a season being 25 pushes. what if 30 pushes are needed? you've set the price at $200 and loose money.


----------



## Wplc

JimMarshall;1722963 said:


> $33.50 an hour


That. is. crazy.


----------



## Wplc

yardguy28;1722968 said:


> personally I price drives per push, per say.
> 
> 2-4 inches is one push at x amount.
> 
> 6-8 inches is 2 pushes at x amount per push.
> 
> 10-12 inches is 3 pushes at x amount per push.
> 
> you get the idea.
> 
> I don't share the idea for any service I offer to charge a flat seasonal amount. I do the work and at the end of the month invoice for what work was performed. this avoids loosing money if services are required past the amount agreed upon.
> 
> take the OPs example of $200 a season being 25 pushes. what if 30 pushes are needed? you've set the price at $200 and loose money.


You win some you lose some. It is risky, but last year we had 12-15 snow events, which meant that I made a lot of money. But yes, the rates around here are way low.


----------



## Wplc

yardguy28;1722968 said:


> personally I price drives per push, per say.
> 
> 2-4 inches is one push at x amount.
> 
> 6-8 inches is 2 pushes at x amount per push.
> 
> 10-12 inches is 3 pushes at x amount per push.
> 
> you get the idea.
> 
> I don't share the idea for any service I offer to charge a flat seasonal amount. I do the work and at the end of the month invoice for what work was performed. this avoids loosing money if services are required past the amount agreed upon.
> 
> take the OPs example of $200 a season being 25 pushes. what if 30 pushes are needed? you've set the price at $200 and loose money.


Also, what happens if it doesn't snow at all? You pay your fixed insurance and licensing costs, and don't have any money coming in. You are still in the red.


----------



## JimMarshall

Wplc;1722972 said:


> That. is. crazy.


And before anyone crucifies me, that is the price HE quoted me, not the price I offered him. He is a well known local trucking/excavation company too, not some lowball fly-by-night


----------



## grandview

yardguy28;1722968 said:


> personally I price drives per push, per say.
> 
> 2-4 inches is one push at x amount.
> 
> 6-8 inches is 2 pushes at x amount per push.
> 
> 10-12 inches is 3 pushes at x amount per push.
> 
> you get the idea.
> 
> I don't share the idea for any service I offer to charge a flat seasonal amount. I do the work and at the end of the month invoice for what work was performed. this avoids loosing money if services are required past the amount agreed upon.
> 
> take the OPs example of $200 a season being 25 pushes. what if 30 pushes are needed? you've set the price at $200 and loose money.


If your in for the long term,you will make out.


----------



## JimMarshall

grandview;1722981 said:


> It your in for the long term,you will make out.


+1 it all averages out.....seasonal is not the kind of thing you want to do on a property that has a different snow management contractor every season


----------



## grandview

JimMarshall;1722983 said:


> +1 it all averages out.....seasonal is not the kind of thing you want to do on a property that has a different snow management contractor every season


Should be if,!


----------



## 94gt331

In michigan you must get alot of snow if you have 20 events+ a year and also the couple guys in Erie as well since your rates are going cheaper in those areas, is it because you get more events and have more guys doing that work? In my area we get 6-10 plowing events a year or less so I personally try to make money on driveways at least around $30 a shot because we got the investment into our equiptment and also we make ourselves available to service our customers keeping us from other work at times. So I want to make it worth it for us when it's snows.


----------



## Wplc

94gt331;1722991 said:


> In michigan you must get alot of snow if you have 20 events+ a year and also the couple guys in Erie as well since your rates are going cheaper in those areas, is it because you get more events and have more guys doing that work? In my area we get 6-10 plowing events a year or less so I personally try to make money on driveways at least around $30 a shot because we got the investment into our equiptment and also we make ourselves available to service our customers keeping us from other work at times. So I want to make it worth it for us when it's snows.


We get a bunch of lake effect from Lake Michigan. Detroit barely gets anything. I read somewhere that Erie gets 200+ inches a year. That's a lot of snow!


----------



## Neige

Antlerart06;1722923 said:


> That's same thing going on around here Seasonal rates on driveways
> That reason I don't look for drives anymore I have 6 and I make about 535 on them each storm
> Only keep them since they are on the route and they pay well and they are owners of some the lots I do. Dr. and Teachers and one Millionaire
> 
> I know one guy does seasonal and one year made good money since didn't snow but the next year We set records of snow fall and once he figure he wasn't making anything He walk away and my old customer started to call me. I told them to bad I cant help
> Back in 80s and 90s I had over 300 drives
> I go where the money is and these days there no money on drives in my area.
> I have one Seasonal account rest per visit. I don't like to gamble and that's what you do with seasonal accounts.


I am going to disagree with your statement. Our company has been around 52 years and all we have ever done is seasonal accounts. Year after year we can count on similar profits. Sure on the big winters we make less, but even 6 years ago when we almost got double our average snowfall we made money. Then the next year we increased our price 20% and we have had nothing but average snow falls since. That 20% we get every year for the last 5 years has more then made up for the small profit from the big year.
With seasonal accounts I can take money to the bank, per push accounts are feast or famine. I prefer a steady income year to year, and no I am not ripping off my clients on a low snow year. It would cost me 500 grand for the season even if my equipment never left the shop once. Lastly please do not say there is no money in residential, it is probably the best kept money making secret around. Oh and did I mention we average around $5.00 a pass.


----------



## Antlerart06

Neige;1723065 said:


> I am going to disagree with your statement. Our company has been around 52 years and all we have ever done is seasonal accounts. Year after year we can count on similar profits. Sure on the big winters we make less, but even 6 years ago when we almost got double our average snowfall we made money. Then the next year we increased our price 20% and we have had nothing but average snow falls since. That 20% we get every year for the last 5 years has more then made up for the small profit from the big year.
> With seasonal accounts I can take money to the bank, per push accounts are feast or famine. I prefer a steady income year to year, and no I am not ripping off my clients on a low snow year. It would cost me 500 grand for the season even if my equipment never left the shop once. Lastly please do not say there is no money in residential, it is probably the best kept money making secret around. Oh and did I mention we average around $5.00 a pass.


There you go work for pennies But if you can,good for you I 'll stick to my $30 + a pass drives
and there no money in driveways here everybody in there dogs jump on driveways since here you don't need Insurance to plow drives


----------



## 94gt331

Neige;1723065 said:


> I am going to disagree with your statement. Our company has been around 52 years and all we have ever done is seasonal accounts. Year after year we can count on similar profits. Sure on the big winters we make less, but even 6 years ago when we almost got double our average snowfall we made money. Then the next year we increased our price 20% and we have had nothing but average snow falls since. That 20% we get every year for the last 5 years has more then made up for the small profit from the big year.
> With seasonal accounts I can take money to the bank, per push accounts are feast or famine. I prefer a steady income year to year, and no I am not ripping off my clients on a low snow year. It would cost me 500 grand for the season even if my equipment never left the shop once. Lastly please do not say there is no money in residential, it is probably the best kept money making secret around. Oh and did I mention we average around $5.00 a pass.


Could you show us a formula or something on averaging $5 a pass? I'm just curious on how you do it for that. But I am a fan of yours lol, and like watching your videos etc. So I can learn from you being a expert in the buisiness. I agree also I think resedential is a very underated service in the snow game. If you have the right equiptment such as you do, it's a very high profit buisiness, and I think resedntial customers have some more loyalty than commercial clients do most of the time.


----------



## Neige

90,000,000.01 penny's this year in residential. It was not my intention to attack you, I just take it personally at times when people say you cannot make money in residential, and that seasonal pricing is a gamble. Thumbs Up


----------



## Neige

94gt331;1723090 said:


> Could you show us a formula or something on averaging $5 a pass? I'm just curious on how you do it for that. But I am a fan of yours lol, and like watching your videos etc. So I can learn from you being a expert in the buisiness.


Simply put, high density runs where we can do 50 drives an hour. $5.00 x 50 = $250.00 an hour per ag tractor. I know I have gone into great detail before somewhere on this site. I will try and find out where and repost it.


----------



## grandview

Neige;1723097 said:


> Simply put, high density runs where we can do 50 drives an hour. $5.00 x 50 = $250.00 an hour per ag tractor. I know I have gone into great detail before somewhere on this site. I will try and find out where and repost it.


And this is the difference between a guy and his truck and a high volume contractor.


----------



## BUFF

grandview;1723103 said:


> And this is the difference between a guy and his truck and a high volume contractor.


With 52yrs of history to work from/with.


----------



## Antlerart06

Neige;1723092 said:


> 90,000,000.01 penny's this year in residential. It was not my intention to attack you, I just take it personally at times when people say you cannot make money in residential, and that seasonal pricing is a gamble. Thumbs Up


Sorry if I got under your skin didn't mean to
You say $5 x 50 $250 per hr sure that $250 sounds like good money in your eyes 
But what you was charging $30 x 50 $1500 per hr Now that is good money To be driving a what 100k snow rig

even at $20 x 50 is $1000

You do 1/3 at 20 and make same amount as you do on your full route

But if your system works for you that's cool.


----------



## Jguck25

I think what neige done is great, but that is just not feasible for the normal company. You would need thousands of driveways to be able to charge that cheaply. And you have to have the perfect right area to do that in. In 5 miles of roadway around me there might be 10 driveways and half of the people do it themselves. Should i Also charge 5 dollars per push?


----------



## snoworks1

I am with Neige on this one. 

I have been plowing for 20 years and I dived in from the beginning. I have always had more than one truck and up to 8 trucks. I used to have per plow and seasonal accounts, I used to mix it up and thought I found a good ratio, about 75% seasonal - 25% per plow. But the common factor for per plow customers, is all wanted to haggle about pricing and service at one time or another or especially during lean years. I got rid of all my per plow customers shortly after, either they signed with me on seasonal basis or I did not plow them the next year. 

I am 100% seasonal, have been for the last 2 1/2 years and don't plan on changing my business model any time soon. Antlerart, you have it wrong, you are taking the gamble by choosing to go the per plow route. Would you rather get paid a good profit margin on a low snow year or no profit margin on a low snow year, it's pretty simple. I carry all the overhead and expenses to operate a snowplowing operation. My bills carry over into the non-snow months, so to me it's priority #1 to make sure I cover myself all the time and seasonal accounts afford me that. I actually sell seasonal contracts based on what I just said. Most people get it, others won't and those are the people that I don't want or need. But I can tell you this I have been contacted by many a per plow customer that has called me to ask if I can plow them the next year, cause there new guy went out of business. 

Seasonal contracts can be structured all different ways, mine have a cap after 20 plows, our seasonal average is 10 plows. Yes, I still make money at 20 plows but that's when we implement a per plow fee of $22.50 per plow. To date I have yet to plow over 17 times in my area with 20 years of plowing. I might just hit 20 this year since we have been out 14 times already. But I can tell you that the tighter routes you have, the cheaper everything costs you, so every year our production, gas, expenses go down, per driveway. 

I sell time slots for my trucks/tractors. I tell potential snowplow customers all about my service, the historical weather data for the area, my operation/philosopy, my track record to date(the good and the bad), etc. The I tell them that my contract is like an insurance policy for snow. Yes you might have a couple of years where you gamble and win with lean years while under a per plow contract, but the laws of averages will catch up and you will get hit hard one year for triple the amount of one seasonal contracted year. This is exactly what I say at the end to a customer and it's the truth. "If your looking to save a few dollars and or your moving next year or in the future, there is no reason not to sign a per plow contract. But if your a homeowner that is planning on contracting snowplowing for several years, there is no looser in a seasonal contract, period. The laws of averages will prevail. If your the latter Snoworks wants you as a customer!"


----------



## snoworks1

Antlerart06;1723127 said:


> Sorry if I got under your skin didn't mean to
> You say $5 x 50 $250 per hr sure that $250 sounds like good money in your eyes
> But what you was charging $30 x 50 $1500 per hr Now that is good money To be driving a what 100k snow rig
> 
> even at $20 x 50 is $1000
> 
> You do 1/3 at 20 and make same amount as you do on your full route
> 
> But if your system works for you that's cool.


Hey I am not saying that $5.00 is right or wrong and at this point in the game I would never foresee our company charging $5.00 bucks a drive. With that said, you are not looking at all the factors that go into plowing and the decision making process to warrant change.

I have had many a plow trucks over the years(over 20) and 5 in my fleet as I type. Your theory on the 100K tractor has not been thought out to well, IMO. How do I know, I have one, well $80k if you include the blower. This was my first year using it and the very first day I knew it was a game changer, hands down. Why you ask. Even with the slow travel speed, I am twice as fast as my best "residential rig"(I have two driveway trucks; a 2011/2012 Jeep wrangler with front and rear blades.). The tractor can generate twice the business right off the bat. But here is why the tractor makes more sense, It will last twice as long, then once 15 years has come and gone I can sell the whole set-up for almost half what I paid for it. My tractor has 60 hours on it after 14 events. So 15 events a year/15 years x 60 hours = 900 hours after 15 years! That's nothing for a machine and the tractor will still be relatively new, because all it does is blow snow, not hard farming work. Heck, the 4 Jeeps will be destroyed in that time frame. I say 4 because that's how many jeeps you need to equal the tractors performance over the 15 year span.

Do the math on the plow trucks vs the tractor. My 2012 Jeep cost me $32K new. Plus front and rear plow set-up equal a grand total of $40k add back-up lights, front end mod's, etc. and you end up around $41 to 42k. $42 x 4 = $168,000.00 big ones. I have not taken into account maintenance but I am going to assume they should even themselves out based on what I spend every year to maintain the jeeps. This is just one aspect of a benefit, the money you spend to plow, looks to me that the tractor in my senerio is way better than a plow truck. Some people might not be able to go this route do to logistics, but most people could if they tried.


----------



## Antlerart06

snoworks1;1723135 said:


> I am with Neige on this one.
> 
> I am 100% seasonal, have been for the last 2 1/2 years and don't plan on changing my business model any time soon. Antlerart, you have it wrong, you are taking the gamble by choosing to go the per plow route. Would you rather get paid a good profit margin on a low snow year or no profit margin on a low snow year, it's pretty simple. QUOTE]
> 
> In my eyes Seasonal is more of a gamble
> What I do in the summer I don't need a profit in winter time to keep my doors open
> But Having full service year contacts I have to do the snow
> 
> O yes a good profit I like and every time it snows I have profit
> With seasonal there no profit till the end of the season if you don't go over your rate then you have profit but if you go over then your broke.
> I have one seasonal sure if it stops snowing I'm making money on that job.
> But come March 31 I will be able tell if I made a profit. and willing take it on for another season. I got my seasonal at my price but last guy had this for DEC went broke and walk off on a National Seasonal price.
> 
> And maybe a Snow contactor Seasonal rate isn't a gamble but a
> National Seasonal rate can be a gamble since its below market value 80% of the time.
> 
> I think a lot of it is how I was raised. You do the work and you get paid for it.
> 
> I have question for you If you have these seasonal contacts and doesn't snow
> Do you give some to your employees as a bonus ?
> Do you pay your employees ahead of time before they do the work?
> Does your employees have to wait till you get paid then you pay them?
> no snow to plow do you give refunds?
> 
> But guys out there that needs snow $$$ to live on Per visit would be a gamble to them


----------



## Antlerart06

snoworks1;1723151 said:


> Hey I am not saying that $5.00 is right or wrong and at this point in the game I would never foresee our company charging $5.00 bucks a drive. With that said, you are not looking at all the factors that go into plowing and the decision making process to warrant change.
> 
> I have had many a plow trucks over the years(over 20) and 5 in my fleet as I type. Your theory on the 100K tractor has not been thought out to well, IMO. How do I know, I have one, well $80k if you include the blower. This was my first year using it and the very first day I knew it was a game changer, hands down. Why you ask. Even with the slow travel speed, I am twice as fast as my best "residential rig"(I have two driveway trucks; a 2011/2012 Jeep wrangler with front and rear blades.). The tractor can generate twice the business right off the bat. But here is why the tractor makes more sense, It will last twice as long, then once 15 years has come and gone I can sell the whole set-up for almost half what I paid for it. My tractor has 60 hours on it after 14 events. So 15 events a year/15 years x 60 hours = 900 hours after 15 years! That's nothing for a machine and the tractor will still be relatively new, because all it does is blow snow, not hard farming work. Heck, the 4 Jeeps will be destroyed in that time frame. I say 4 because that's how many jeeps you need to equal the tractors performance over the 15 year span.
> 
> Do the math on the plow trucks vs the tractor. My 2012 Jeep cost me $32K new. Plus front and rear plow set-up equal a grand total of $40k add back-up lights, front end mod's, etc. and you end up around $41 to 42k. $42 x 4 = $168,000.00 big ones. I have not taken into account maintenance but I am going to assume they should even themselves out based on what I spend every year to maintain the jeeps. This is just one aspect of a benefit, the money you spend to plow, looks to me that the tractor in my senerio is way better than a plow truck. Some people might not be able to go this route do to logistics, but most people could if they tried.


LOL I know the tractor thing I have one as a full time snow rig 



 I have 3 more with loaders for back up So you don't have tell me what they cost.
I rather be in my truck vs my tractor. But this year I added a skid to my fleet. I ran it this year for about 10 hrs and that was most fun I had its faster then anything I ever ran. In right lot it will out plow all my rigs.
Then again I'm the Boss Im stuck to a truck. If I had my choice I would be in the skid

my tractor was bought new is my full time snow rig Its 1993 model was in 60k back in 93.

So at the family farm we run cattle 354 head this year. use to row crop but now in cattle only


----------



## snoworks1

I think a lot of it is how I was raised. You do the work and you get paid for it.

I have question for you; If you have these seasonal contacts and doesn't snow?
1.) Do you give some to your employees as a bonus. I am not that big of an operation, but I did just hire a full time employee. He is a salaried employee. All others get paid by the hour, with way better than average wages. My plan is to hire all seasonal salaried workers next year. 
2.) Do you pay your employees ahead of time before they do the work? I have had drivers work for me salaried, $4,500.00 for the season. Several times they got paid well before they did any work. The benefit of knowing they would show up, because I am paying them regardless, was priceless.
3.) Does your employees have to wait till you get paid then you pay them?
no snow to plow do you give refunds? Most employees get paid within a week. My new full time employee get's paid once a month, just like me!

You do have one big advantage from us snow only guys. I have often thought how much easier it would be to supplement equipment with summer time work. But the real benefit is utilizing your existing work force!


----------



## snoworks1

Antlerart06;1723235 said:


> LOL I know the tractor thing I have one as a full time snow rig
> 
> 
> 
> I have 3 more with loaders for back up So you don't have tell me what they cost.
> I rather be in my truck vs my tractor. But this year I added a skid to my fleet. I ran it this year for about 10 hrs and that was most fun I had its faster then anything I ever ran. In right lot it will out plow all my rigs.
> Then again I'm the Boss Im stuck to a truck. If I had my choice I would be in the skid
> 
> my tractor was bought new is my full time snow rig Its 1993 model was in 60k back in 93.
> 
> So at the family farm we run cattle 354 head this year. use to row crop but now in cattle only


Well it sounds like you proved my point yourself, you have a 20 year old tractor still working. Not many 20 year old plow trucks working - cost effiecently and productively. So you and I are on the same page that a AG tractor is a much better fit for some types of applications. Now I just got to sell you on $5.00 a plow driveways, Just kidding.


----------



## Antlerart06

snoworks1;1723245 said:


> Well it sounds like you proved my point yourself, you have a 20 year old tractor still working. Not many 20 year old plow trucks working - cost effiecently and productively. So you and I are on the same page that a AG tractor is a much better fit for some types of applications. Now I just got to sell you on $5.00 a plow driveways, Just kidding.


o yes but that tractor boken down One time was clutch that was 11 grand There 3 clutchs in that tractor. Out all the trucks I have owned I never had fix something cost me 11 grand 
Yes a tractor will out live a truck but takes $$$ to get it to out live a truck 
Tires for a tractor will cost some $$$ I think I had 7k when I replace the ones on my 93
I sent 4k on cab fenders and fixing the cab Old fenders was metal new ones are plastic each side cost 1500 I rebuilt the cab welded all new metal in.
But for what new one cost I just build this one be only one. Summer time I use in big seed jobs and pull hay rake or mow hay with it.
Now the loaders we get so many hours on them. Trade them in they break they will cost more $$$ then the 93 model did.

I use plow drives for $5.00 with a tractor but that was in the 70s on a Golden jubilee Made good money Then But you wont see me charge that now even if I had 1,000 drives 15 would be lowest I would charge if I figure a seasonal price


----------



## Antlerart06

snoworks1;1723240 said:


> I think a lot of it is how I was raised. You do the work and you get paid for it.
> 
> I have question for you; If you have these seasonal contacts and doesn't snow?
> 1.) Do you give some to your employees as a bonus. I am not that big of an operation, but I did just hire a full time employee. He is a salaried employee. All others get paid by the hour, with way better than average wages. My plan is to hire all seasonal salaried workers next year.
> 2.) Do you pay your employees ahead of time before they do the work? I have had drivers work for me salaried, $4,500.00 for the season. Several times they got paid well before they did any work. The benefit of knowing they would show up, because I am paying them regardless, was priceless.
> 3.) Does your employees have to wait till you get paid then you pay them?
> no snow to plow do you give refunds? Most employees get paid within a week. My new full time employee get's paid once a month, just like me!
> 
> You do have one big advantage from us snow only guys. I have often thought how much easier it would be to supplement equipment with summer time work. But the real benefit is utilizing your existing work force!


You wait once a month that sucks lol I pay my self each week it snows
My employees get paid each snow day. When isn't snowing they get unemployment even I draw one to I know some say I cant but my company is set up where I can draw a weekly check Im incorporated


----------



## snoworks1

Antlerart06;1723278 said:


> o yes but that tractor boken down One time was clutch that was 11 grand There 3 clutchs in that tractor. Out all the trucks I have owned I never had fix something cost me 11 grand
> Yes a tractor will out live a truck but takes $$$ to get it to out live a truck
> Tires for a tractor will cost some $$$ I think I had 7k when I replace the ones on my 93
> I sent 4k on cab fenders and fixing the cab Old fenders was metal new ones are plastic each side cost 1500 I rebuilt the cab welded all new metal in.
> But for what new one cost I just build this one be only one. Summer time I use in big seed jobs and pull hay rake or mow hay with it.
> Now the loaders we get so many hours on them. Trade them in they break they will cost more $$$ then the 93 model did.
> 
> I use plow drives for $5.00 with a tractor but that was in the 70s on a Golden jubilee Made good money Then But you wont see me charge that now even if I had 1,000 drives 15 would be lowest I would charge if I figure a seasonal price


With regards to maintenance/repairs, it all comes down to how much revenue you are generating with the tractor vs. a truck! Some might not want to try to do it, do to the initial start up cost but the math does not lie.

One season of work(Keep in mind I have 4-6 hour plow route times). 1 $325.00 avr., just for the driveway. Average plow 10 times/seasonally.

-Tractor: 2.5 minutes a driveway. 6 hours(360 minutes) /2.5 = 144 driveways @ $325.00 = $46,800.00 x 15= $702,000.00 in collected revenue.

-Truck: 4.5 minutes a driveway. 6 hours(360 minutes) /4.5 = 80 driveways @ $325.00 = $26,000.00 x 15= $390,000.00 in collected revenue.

Problem with the truck figure is that it will handle the route with 1.5-4" tops, but after that you can't plow 80 driveways with 6"+ inches of snow in 6 hours. Maybe on my best day, but the customers come first so I limit the driveway trucks to 60 at the most.

-Revised Truck: 6 minutes a driveway. 6 hours(360 minutes) /6 = 60 driveways @ $325.00 = $19,500.00 x 15= $292,500.00 in collected revenue.

Never thought to check what the hourly rate would be on the tractor?

Just say the tractor works an average of 80 hours a season and $46,500.00 was generated. Take 28% off the top for overhead, burden, etc. That's $418.00 an hour.


----------



## Antlerart06

snoworks1;1723291 said:


> With regards to maintenance/repairs, it all comes down to how much revenue you are generating with the tractor vs. a truck! Some might not want to try to do it, do to the initial start up cost but the math does not lie.
> 
> One season of work(Keep in mind I have 4-6 hour plow route times). 1 $325.00 avr., just for the driveway. Average plow 10 times/seasonally.
> 
> .


Your seasonal price is 325.00 for 10 visits Right


----------



## potskie

Neige;1723092 said:


> 90,000,000.01 penny's this year in residential. It was not my intention to attack you, I just take it personally at times when people say you cannot make money in residential, and that seasonal pricing is a gamble. Thumbs Up


What's a penny? Can you relay that in nickels instead?


----------



## Antlerart06

snoworks1;1723291 said:


> With regards to maintenance/repairs, it all comes down to how much revenue you are generating with the tractor vs. a truck! Some might not want to try to do it, do to the initial start up cost but the math does not lie.
> 
> One season of work(Keep in mind I have 4-6 hour plow route times). 1 $325.00 avr., just for the driveway. Average plow 10 times/seasonally.
> 
> -Tractor: 2.5 minutes a driveway. 6 hours(360 minutes) /2.5 = 144 driveways @ $325.00 = $46,800.00 x 15= $702,000.00 in collected revenue.
> 
> -Truck: 4.5 minutes a driveway. 6 hours(360 minutes) /4.5 = 80 driveways @ $325.00 = $26,000.00 x 15= $390,000.00 in collected revenue.
> 
> Problem with the truck figure is that it will handle the route with 1.5-4" tops, but after that you can't plow 80 driveways with 6"+ inches of snow in 6 hours. Maybe on my best day, but the customers come first so I limit the driveway trucks to 60 at the most.
> 
> -Revised Truck: 6 minutes a driveway. 6 hours(360 minutes) /6 = 60 driveways @ $325.00 = $19,500.00 x 15= $292,500.00 in collected revenue.
> 
> Never thought to check what the hourly rate would be on the tractor?
> 
> Just say the tractor works an average of 80 hours a season and $46,500.00 was generated. Take 28% off the top for overhead, burden, etc. That's $418.00 an hour.


Your price sounds better then $5.00 per drive
You making 32.5 per visit if you don't go over 10 visits even you did 20 visits you making 16 and thats better then 5

4-6 hr route I wouldn't know what to do rest of the day My route was 8hrs but now its 12 hrs x 5 rigs Due to a 5 acre lot I took on late in the season


----------



## grandview

Antlerart06;1723285 said:


> You wait once a month that sucks lol I pay my self each week it snows
> My employees get paid each snow day. When isn't snowing they get unemployment even I draw one to I know some say I cant but my company is set up where I can draw a weekly check Im incorporated


Once a week twice a month ,once a month ,doesn't matter. I take a draw,not so much a pay check I take what i need or want.


----------



## Mr.Markus

grandview;1723331 said:


> Once a week twice a month ,once a month ,doesn't matter. I take a draw,not so much a pay check I take what i need or want.


I'm the same way....or rather "she" takes what she needs or wants.


----------



## yardguy28

Wplc;1722978 said:


> Also, what happens if it doesn't snow at all? You pay your fixed insurance and licensing costs, and don't have any money coming in. You are still in the red.


where I'm from there isn't any special insurance or licensing for snow removal. I pay the same insurance whether I do snow or not. so I'm not in the red.

snow removal for me is just icing on the cake. my lawn maintenance business is what supports me 100%. I do snow removal as one more way to take care of my clients. I could just as easily go to FL for the winter months and be just fine.

it's also a moral thing with me. I would never feel right about taking money for work not completed. that's why I don't use contracts or seasonal prices for any service I offer. the idea of getting paid for 34 mows when maybe I only did 28 that year doesn't sit in my stomach. and I certainly couldn't accept $200 for a winter season if it didn't snow once.

to each there own though. I prefer to complete the work and then invoice for that completed work, in any service I offer. that way I don't have to do a balancing act of being ahead one season and behind another. it's worked quite well for me for 8 years so far.


----------



## 32vld

Antlerart06;1722923 said:


> I have one Seasonal account rest per visit. I don't like to gamble and that's what you do with seasonal accounts.


I do not do seasonal prices for that reason as well.

I can handle only having one event in a winter.

No way I could keep working on a seasonal rate if we had 10 events and the average year was 5. Then in that year where you are taking a beating and you had people working the sidewalks with a blower and shovel. After paying them you could wind up with a loss. And, of course that is the year something breaks that costs big bucks and it will be something that you can not do yourself.

I am not in business to lose money.


----------



## Herm Witte

Do you only pay maintenance on your equipment if if snows? Do you only pay insurance on your equipment if and when you or someone wrecks it? How are you reimbursed for your investment if it does not snow? I encourage you not to feel guilty about charging seasonally. Not slamming per trip operators at all. We have a mix of both however my per trip clients guarantee us a minimum.


----------



## 32vld

Wplc;1722965 said:


> Exactly. I would be a multi-millionaire right now if I could get the rates that some claim to get on this site. I would buy 40 trucks and make $200 an hour on each of them, or whatever crazy number they say they are getting.


Even region has different prices. Some of those prices seem to high to high to me too.

Though when I started doing residential drives, this is my 6th season. I would go knock on doors. People were having a heart attack when I would ask for $40. I was nervous to ask for more because back in my youth(I'm 59 till the spring) people would react the same way if they heard $10.

Next year I started asking $60. I got the same grumbling but I got the $60.
I also started hearing what jobs were going for. At a party. My BIL's friend was there, he had a big house big driveway, big job. He had a plow guys that were undependable. One year a guy showed up quoted him double, $300. The friend said go do it. The guy has been 100% dependable for years now.

Then I found out a sprinkler guy was getting $75 to $95 a driveway.

That gave me the confidence to start asking more. The BIL's friend's drive way was big but not that big. My one commercial account was close to the size of this guys driveway. Someone else recommended them to me. I did the best job they ever had done. Second year I sent them a letter at the start of the second season that a base snow under 2" was $189 Double last years price. Then so much per inch. They did not bat an eye. It was a good thing we had a 27" snow storm that year. Made $469 for their drive and small parking lot.

In my 6th season I get $100 for driveways that I would of gotten $60 for 4 seasons ago.

There are people in the area that I work that will not pay my prices. That's ok. They will not get my quality and dependability.

I think the problem is people spend money they can't afford to get a truck and a plow. Even if they already had the truck a plow is not cheap. They put themselves in debt and then they wind up low balling to pay the money that they laid out to start their plowing business. All because they could not afford the equipment.

People confuse with having money means they can afford to spend it. I have some money on the side now. I can't spend it because come the end of May my property taxes are due.

It is easy when you have no money in your pocket to do a $100 job for $50. Short term that $50 feels good when you get it. Though it gets used up faster then a $100 and long term doing a job to low ruins the local price structure making it hard to make money long term.


----------



## 32vld

Wplc;1722978 said:


> Also, what happens if it doesn't snow at all? You pay your fixed insurance and licensing costs, and don't have any money coming in. You are still in the red.


I landscape. My costs are there whether there is snow or not.

Though if you insurance is that high you can have a sign up for the season price to cover the insurance. Then you could lower your rates because they do not have to cover the insurance costs any more.


----------



## jrs.landscaping

Landscaping doesn't cover snow removal, at least with the w/c g/l companies we've had over the years. I'd talk with your agent to double check.


----------



## Neige

Antlerart06;1723127 said:


> Sorry if I got under your skin didn't mean to
> You say $5 x 50 $250 per hr sure that $250 sounds like good money in your eyes
> But what you was charging $30 x 50 $1500 per hr Now that is good money To be driving a what 100k snow rig
> 
> even at $20 x 50 is $1000
> 
> You do 1/3 at 20 and make same amount as you do on your full route
> 
> But if your system works for you that's cool.


Wait a minuet, are you suggesting that $250/hr is not good money? 
I used the $5.00 a plow as an example that on some big years that is what I am going to make. Point being still $250.00 / hr. If I only plow 30 times I will be making $10.00 a plow. Every market has a treshold on pricing, and a good business owner will price his work where he can get the most clients at the best price.



Jguck25;1723132 said:


> I think what neige done is great, but that is just not feasible for the normal company. You would need thousands of driveways to be able to charge that cheaply. And you have to have the perfect right area to do that in. In 5 miles of roadway around me there might be 10 driveways and half of the people do it themselves. Should i Also charge 5 dollars per push?


No you should not be charging $5.00. You have to know your costs, then decide how much profit you want to make. You then price out what you should be charging those 5 drives to achieve your numbers. That being said 10 potentcial drives on 5 miles is not a good market to be servicing.



yardguy28;1723370 said:


> where I'm from there isn't any special insurance or licensing for snow removal. I pay the same insurance whether I do snow or not. so I'm not in the red.
> 
> snow removal for me is just icing on the cake. my lawn maintenance business is what supports me 100%. I do snow removal as one more way to take care of my clients. I could just as easily go to FL for the winter months and be just fine.
> 
> it's also a moral thing with me. I would never feel right about taking money for work not completed. that's why I don't use contracts or seasonal prices for any service I offer. the idea of getting paid for 34 mows when maybe I only did 28 that year doesn't sit in my stomach. and I certainly couldn't accept $200 for a winter season if it didn't snow once.
> 
> to each there own though. I prefer to complete the work and then invoice for that completed work, in any service I offer. that way I don't have to do a balancing act of being ahead one season and behind another. it's worked quite well for me for 8 years so far.


I believe I am a moral upstanding person. I sign a contract with my clients guaranteeing that every time we get 2 inches of snow or more I will clear their driveway. I am now legally responsible to fulfill this contract. I have 3200 signed clients so I need to own 24 tractors with blowers, I need to have 24 employees ready to come to work on short notice 24/7. I have staked all the drives, and got all the routes organized so we are ready to go. Factor in all my costs before I even clear for the first time and you are looking at around 300 grand. (I mentioned 500 grand the last time but that included my commercial work.) I do not understand how charging my clients a seasonal price makes me immoral. whether I service them 15 times or 50 times, I fulfilled my service contract with them.


----------



## 32vld

Neige;1723065 said:


> 6 years ago when we almost got double our average snowfall we made money. Then the next year we increased our price 20% and we have had nothing but average snow falls since. That 20% we get every year for the last 5 years has more then made up for the small profit from the big year.
> With seasonal accounts I can take money to the bank, per push accounts are feast or famine. I prefer a steady income year to year, and no I am not ripping off my clients on a low snow year. It would cost me 500 grand for the season even if my equipment never left the shop once. Lastly please do not say there is no money in residential, it is probably the best kept money making secret around. Oh and did I mention we average around $5.00 a pass.


If you were working 5 years before that big snow storm you earned the surplus to make up for that year you had double the snowfall.

So there was no reason to increase your prices 20% for the next 5 years to make up for that poor year. You already had a surplus from the 5 years prior to that storm.

You know back in the day when sneakers became $100 items the companies started having them made over seas to save money.

Those companies cut their costs in half. Sneaker prices in the USA just kept going up.

If I had a large set up and could knock out $30 drives and make good money only charging $5. I would still charge $25 to get the business. Does not make sense to leave money on the table.

Even if you got half the volume you still would be making way more money and your equipment would not wear out as fast.


----------



## 32vld

snoworks1;1723135 said:


> I am with Neige on this one.
> 
> I have been plowing for 20 years and I dived in from the beginning. I have always had more than one truck and up to 8 trucks. I used to have per plow and seasonal accounts, I used to mix it up and thought I found a good ratio, about 75% seasonal - 25% per plow. But the common factor for per plow customers, is all wanted to haggle about pricing and service at one time or another or especially during lean years. I got rid of all my per plow customers shortly after, either they signed with me on seasonal basis or I did not plow them the next year.


Problem avoided with per event is that you do not haggle. They will not pay the price you walk away. None of the I will call you when I need you. They agree to a trigger and you will be there and they have to pay. You can have a contract with a per event spelling out the simple agreement that I laid out.


----------



## Dogplow Dodge

Neige;1723413 said:


> Wait a minuet,
> 
> *I do not understand how charging my clients a seasonal price makes me immoral.* whether I service them 15 times or 50 times, I fulfilled my service contract with them.


It doesn't.

You're providing them an "insurance policy" of sorts, basically guaranteeing them that their property will be cleared for them to come and go as they please, and morality has nothing to do with it. I have insurance on my car, my house, and my business. I pay thousands of dollars to have protection on my personal assets, and property. I NEVER file any claims, therefore I'm not actually utilizing the service provided, which is to give me money to pay off any losses that occur. Should the need arise, I'll be damn glad I paid for that insurance policy, and it will be well worth the expense for the service of covering those losses. That's the peace of mind I'm paying for, so in reality I'm getting a service even though it's not currently a physical one being provided.

I think the problem here is confusing the issue between morality and fairness to all. I get that. If no work is provided, then no one gets billed. If physical work is completed, then that provider gets paid for the time spent doing so. That's a fair relationship, and all benefit from it. For me, I benefit from being provided insurance on my assets, and although that service isn't tangible, something I can physically hold in my hands, or see out my front door, it's still (mentally) a valuable service in the sense that when that loss occurs, I won't lose my life's work because of it.


----------



## Neige

Antlerart06;1723278 said:


> o yes but that tractor boken down One time was clutch that was 11 grand There 3 clutchs in that tractor. Out all the trucks I have owned I never had fix something cost me 11 grand
> Yes a tractor will out live a truck but takes $$$ to get it to out live a truck
> Tires for a tractor will cost some $$$ I think I had 7k when I replace the ones on my 93
> I sent 4k on cab fenders and fixing the cab Old fenders was metal new ones are plastic each side cost 1500 I rebuilt the cab welded all new metal in.
> But for what new one cost I just build this one be only one. Summer time I use in big seed jobs and pull hay rake or mow hay with it.
> Now the loaders we get so many hours on them. Trade them in they break they will cost more $$$ then the 93 model did.
> 
> I use plow drives for $5.00 with a tractor but that was in the 70s on a Golden jubilee Made good money Then But you wont see me charge that now even if I had 1,000 drives 15 would be lowest I would charge if I figure a seasonal price


Wait a minuet lets be fair here, you used the tractor for farm work also. What is the percentage of hours you put on that tractor for snow work. Just because the clutch let go during the winter months does not mean that 100% of the cost should go to snow.
I will believe you on the cost of the clutch replacement, but our experience over the years we have used tractors, A Landini which had a double clutch cost $2,600.00 to fix at the dealer. The most expensive repair we ever did on an ag tractor is $3,200.00. If you are going to use the tractor year round, which only makes it more profitable count the hours of use for summer and winter. Get your percentage of time used, and then use that for all the maintenance and repair bills. We only use our tractors for winter work, and have found we put very liottle money into them over the 15 years of service. Even the tires will last that long.


----------



## 32vld

snoworks1;1723135 said:


> Seasonal contracts can be structured all different ways, mine have a cap after 20 plows, our seasonal average is 10 plows. Yes, I still make money at 20 plows but that's when we implement a per plow fee of $22.50 per plow.


To me having a cap is not being seasonal. People market seasonal to the consumer as a protection against them having to pay a lot in a year of heavy snowfall if they were paying per event.

That is trying to have both ways. As if making money hand over fist is not enough so they try to make money hand under fist at the same time.


----------



## Whiffyspark

32vld;1723424 said:


> Problem avoided with per event is that you do not haggle. They will not pay the price you walk away. None of the I will call you when I need you. They agree to a trigger and you will be there and they have to pay. You can have a contract with a per event spelling out the simple agreement that I laid out.


It's not that simple with residential customers. Would you really want to invoice over 3000 people every single storm?

If you have 10-15 driveways, sure that's fine. But once you start getting to 50-100-150+ then seasonal is where it wins out.


----------



## Whiffyspark

32vld;1723433 said:


> To me having a cap is not being seasonal. People market seasonal to the consumer as a protection against them having to pay a lot in a year of heavy snowfall if they were paying per event.
> 
> That is trying to have both ways. As if making money hand over fist is not enough so they try to make money hand under fist at the same time.


What's the difference between having a cap for a season and having different prices per push for the amount of snow. If you tell Mrs. Jones it's $35 a push for 2 inches, but $80 for 12 inches. She's not going to hear the $80. She'll expect $35

It's a cost of doing business. We have blizzard clauses, extreme winter clauses, and many other things to protect us. There is no reason you should have to eat what is thrown at you because mother nature is acting up. Margins go down on large storm, things are more likely to break, more labor, etc. Large storms are VERY expensive.

Having a seasonal contract is the same as having a retainer for commercial work. You're being paid to be ready for a normal winter. The difference is in commercial work we get paid October - April for seasonal. Those 4 months when it doesn't snow, helps when it does.


----------



## 32vld

Herm Witte;1723387 said:


> Do you only pay maintenance on your equipment if if snows? Do you only pay insurance on your equipment if and when you or someone wrecks it? How are you reimbursed for your investment if it does not snow? I encourage you not to feel guilty about charging seasonally. Not slamming per trip operators at all. We have a mix of both however my per trip clients guarantee us a minimum.


I landscape so snow is something I do to keep business, keep other contractors off my customers property.


----------



## 32vld

Whiffyspark;1723434 said:


> It's not that simple with residential customers. Would you really want to invoice over 3000 people every single storm?
> 
> If you have 10-15 driveways, sure that's fine. But once you start getting to 50-100-150+ then seasonal is where it wins out.


Vey good point. Though with using a PC doing a spread sheet and printing out invoices seems that it would make billing easier then before computer days.

Though I still do my invoices long hand and I am a few customers short of to many customers. 

Edit to add even though as a group we have different view points. Whiffyspark as others present things that I did not think of or know.


----------



## 32vld

Whiffyspark;1723439 said:


> What's the difference between having a cap for a season and having different prices per push for the amount of snow. If you tell Mrs. Jones it's $35 a push for 2 inches, but $80 for 12 inches. She's not going to hear the $80. She'll expect $35


I have had Mrs Jones hear $35 for 2" and smile. Then I make sure she hears $80 for 12" Because I see their smile go away. I hammer the point so there is no misunderstanding.


----------



## Neige

32vld;1723415 said:


> If you were working 5 years before that big snow storm you earned the surplus to make up for that year you had double the snowfall.
> 
> So there was no reason to increase your prices 20% for the next 5 years to make up for that poor year. You already had a surplus from the 5 years prior to that storm.
> 
> You know back in the day when sneakers became $100 items the companies started having them made over seas to save money.
> 
> Those companies cut their costs in half. Sneaker prices in the USA just kept going up.
> 
> If I had a large set up and could knock out $30 drives and make good money only charging $5. I would still charge $25 to get the business. Does not make sense to leave money on the table.
> 
> Even if you got half the volume you still would be making way more money and your equipment would not wear out as fast.
> 
> .


I am confused, on the one hand you are telling me it was wrong to increase my price 20% after the big year, and then further on you are saying I should increase my price 500%. 
Yes I made a profit on the previous years, and had an opportunity to finally increase my price 20% which everyone on here thinks is still way to low. 
We are a snow only company, I make a decent salary year round, we must be doing something right



Dogplow Dodge;1723429 said:


> It doesn't.
> 
> You're providing them an "insurance policy" of sorts, basically guaranteeing them that their property will be cleared for them to come and go as they please, and morality has nothing to do with it. I have insurance on my car, my house, and my business. I pay thousands of dollars to have protection on my personal assets, and property. I NEVER file any claims, therefore I'm not actually utilizing the service provided, which is to give me money to pay off any losses that occur. Should the need arise, I'll be damn glad I paid for that insurance policy, and it will be well worth the expense for the service of covering those losses. That's the peace of mind I'm paying for, so in reality I'm getting a service even though it's not currently a physical one being provided.
> 
> I think the problem here is confusing the issue between morality and fairness to all. I get that. If no work is provided, then no one gets billed. If physical work is completed, then that provider gets paid for the time spent doing so. That's a fair relationship, and all benefit from it. I benefit from being provided insurance on my assets, and although that service isn't tangible, something I can physically hold in my hands, or see out my front door, it's still (mentally) a provided service in the sense that when that loss occurs, I won't lose my life's work because of it.


Very well put, thank you.



Whiffyspark;1723434 said:


> It's not that simple with residential customers. Would you really want to invoice over 3000 people every single storm?
> 
> If you have 10-15 driveways, sure that's fine. But once you start getting to 50-100-150+ then seasonal is where it wins out.


Another good point, just imagine 3200 invoices sent out every month, 3200 checks to cash every month, say 10% of the clients call to argue about the times you serviced that is 320 clients a month wanting explanations. 
I have one person in the office that takes care of all our invoicing. All our residential are prepay. No more chasing money into the summer months.


----------



## Wplc

yardguy28;1723370 said:


> where I'm from there isn't any special insurance or licensing for snow removal. I pay the same insurance whether I do snow or not. so I'm not in the red.
> 
> snow removal for me is just icing on the cake. my lawn maintenance business is what supports me 100%. I do snow removal as one more way to take care of my clients. I could just as easily go to FL for the winter months and be just fine.
> 
> it's also a moral thing with me. I would never feel right about taking money for work not completed. that's why I don't use contracts or seasonal prices for any service I offer. the idea of getting paid for 34 mows when maybe I only did 28 that year doesn't sit in my stomach. and I certainly couldn't accept $200 for a winter season if it didn't snow once.
> 
> to each there own though. I prefer to complete the work and then invoice for that completed work, in any service I offer. that way I don't have to do a balancing act of being ahead one season and behind another. it's worked quite well for me for 8 years so far.


Are you seriously going to bring up morals when talking about seasonal rates?:laughing: All businesses have fixed costs they need to pay and don't tell me you don't have any. It doesn't matter if you don't have special insurance for snowplowing because you are still paying insurance on your trucks even when you aren't using them in the winter. If you weren't snowplowing you could put all your trucks you use for lawn care and put storage insurance on them instead of plpd, full coverage, or whatever you have on them. You still had to stake the drives, and go through the hassle of signing everyone up, making routes etc.
A big reason why I like seasonal, is because I never have to invoice. They send me a check before the season starts and sometimes I never even talk to the person. Even invoicing my measly 120 customers would be time consuming and expensive. I can't imagine doing that if I had 1000+.


----------



## 32vld

Neige;1723454 said:


> I am confused, on the one hand you are telling me it was wrong to increase my price 20% after the big year, and then further on you are saying I should increase my price 500%.
> Yes I made a profit on the previous years, and had an opportunity to finally increase my price 20% which everyone on here thinks is still way to low.
> We are a snow only company, I make a decent salary year round, we must be doing something right


Main point is not your actual prices. It is how seasonal pricing is to protect the contractor when snowfall is low so he still makes a good surplus.

That seasonal pricing protects the customer for blowing his budget when the snow fall is high.

So if you made a surplus profit the 5 years before that big snowfall year why did you need to cover the lost profit from that heavy snow fall year by raising your prices 20% for the next 5 years.

You have a big operation and make big money. I truly wish I had your problems.

Though what I can not understand is why you lower your prices so much just because you are that efficiently set up?

That is why I gave the sneaker example. Many other businesses in the USA farm out work over seas to cut costs. They never cut their prices. They increase their profits though.

They just cut jobs here.


----------



## 32vld

Wplc;1723459 said:


> Are you seriously going to bring up morals when talking about seasonal rates?:laughing: All businesses have fixed costs they need to pay and don't tell me you don't have any. It doesn't matter if you don't have special insurance for snowplowing because you are still paying insurance on your trucks even when you aren't using them in the winter. If you weren't snowplowing you could put all your trucks you use for lawn care and put storage insurance on them instead of plpd, full coverage, or whatever you have on them. You still had to stake the drives, and go through the hassle of signing everyone up, making routes etc.
> A big reason why I like seasonal, is because I never have to invoice. They send me a check before the season starts and sometimes I never even talk to the person. Even invoicing my measly 120 customers would be time consuming and expensive. I can't imagine doing that if I had 1000+.


I try to do right by my customers. That is not a joke. If everyone business operated long term profit then short term stock prices economically this nation as a whole would be better off.

To take off insurance in my state I doubt I would save money. There then is the need to surrender the plates, re register, re insure, state inspection. All taking time. My last clean up was the Saturday before Christmas. Then there has been three landscaping jobs I have done this January. Who knows what February holds. So trucks just can not be taken off the road and put back on without added expense, time, and hassles.

Snow is unplanned for money. I am set up to get by without making snow money. It is found money.

As to doing 1,000's of invoices. I do not send out invoices after each event. There can be more then one event in a month. So they get invoiced by the month not the event. That keeps invoicing down.

Though if I had to send out 1,000 invoices chances are my business would have that much volume I would have a book keeper/office person to handle that work load. Or I would be out of the truck running the office myself.


----------



## Herm Witte

_Originally Posted by yardguy28 
where I'm from there isn't any special insurance or licensing for snow removal. I pay the same insurance whether I do snow or not. so I'm not in the red._

Yard guy, you are very mistaken about insurance rates and licensing as it relates to snow removal . I believe you are from the Grand Rapids, MI area, I am fully aware that Grand Rapids, East Grand Rapids, Kentwood, Wyoming, Grandville, Walker, and Hudsonville require you to have a specific snow plow license(s). Those licenses also require you to maintain certain levels of insurance. As far as insurance goes, my WC rates (also an insurance) for our snow plowing operation are considerably higher than our landscape maintenance and landscaping operation and are payroll based. Our trucks are insured with plows added also an additional insurance expense. General liability is based on sales. I am assuming you add snow plowing sales to your yearly totals. Not trying to slam you but I would encourage you to become knowledgeable about the legal requirements of snowplowing in your area and also I encourage you to sit down with your insurance agent and have a thorough insurance review to make sure you are properly insured.


----------



## Neige

32vld;1723467 said:


> Main point is not your actual prices. It is how seasonal pricing is to protect the contractor when snowfall is low so he still makes a good surplus.
> 
> That seasonal pricing protects the customer for blowing his budget when the snow fall is high.
> 
> So if you made a surplus profit the 5 years before that big snowfall year why did you need to cover the lost profit from that heavy snow fall year by raising your prices 20% for the next 5 years.
> 
> You have a big operation and make big money. I truly wish I had your problems.
> 
> Though what I can not understand is why you lower your prices so much just because you are that efficiently set up?
> 
> That is why I gave the sneaker example. Many other businesses in the USA farm out work over seas to cut costs. They never cut their prices. They increase their profits though.
> 
> They just cut jobs here.


I would love to charge more, unfortunately I am not alone and every year I have companies coming after my clients with lower prices. I hold onto my clients because of the excellent service we offer. It really helps that we have been around for over 50 years, and we have a good established name. When someone moves into my market my name means nothing more then that of my competitors. I used to have 3400 clients, and my refusal to match my competitors pricing has cost me those clients. Thats $60 grand less a year that in the end would not have cost me maybe 5 grand more to do. Believe me I am in business to make as much money as possible, without gouging my clients.
This has been a great discussion everyone, good feedback from everyone.


----------



## peteo1

32vld;1723467 said:


> Main point is not your actual prices. It is how seasonal pricing is to protect the contractor when snowfall is low so he still makes a good surplus.
> 
> That seasonal pricing protects the customer for blowing his budget when the snow fall is high.
> 
> So if you made a surplus profit the 5 years before that big snowfall year why did you need to cover the lost profit from that heavy snow fall year by raising your prices 20% for the next 5 years.
> 
> You have a big operation and make big money. I truly wish I had your problems.
> 
> Though what I can not understand is why you lower your prices so much just because you are that efficiently set up?
> 
> That is why I gave the sneaker example. Many other businesses in the USA farm out work over seas to cut costs. They never cut their prices. They increase their profits though.
> 
> They just cut jobs here.


This sounds like obumblenomics. Why not increase your price? Fuel, insurance, repair, maintenance, payroll, taxes,etc go up every year. You say 20% is too much. That's a 4% increase every year which most think is reasonable. You seem to take more of an issue with Neige making a solid profit than you do him charging seasonal rates.


----------



## Antlerart06

Neige;1723432 said:


> Wait a minuet lets be fair here, you used the tractor for farm work also. What is the percentage of hours you put on that tractor for snow work. Just because the clutch let go during the winter months does not mean that 100% of the cost should go to snow.
> I will believe you on the cost of the clutch replacement, but our experience over the years we have used tractors, A Landini which had a double clutch cost $2,600.00 to fix at the dealer. The most expensive repair we ever did on an ag tractor is $3,200.00. If you are going to use the tractor year round, which only makes it more profitable count the hours of use for summer and winter. Get your percentage of time used, and then use that for all the maintenance and repair bills. We only use our tractors for winter work, and have found we put very liottle money into them over the 15 years of service. Even the tires will last that long.


In the 95 the tractor paid for its self at one Seed job was 150 acres at a new factory 
My tractor work all year The last 8 yrs not much in summer time
it has total of 3500 hours Last summer never took the plow off never did a thing 
Clutch cost was at 5k but there was other things wrong bearings that was with clutch and + the labor to split it and was done in 5 days from dealer
I would have done it and saved on labor but it broke during My best Feb I ever had I plowed 22 different storms I didn't have time to fix the tractor + I needed that tractor 
Sorry If I made you :realmad: I was bored with nothing bs over I enjoy it


----------



## yardguy28

Neige;1723413 said:


> I believe I am a moral upstanding person. I sign a contract with my clients guaranteeing that every time we get 2 inches of snow or more I will clear their driveway. I am now legally responsible to fulfill this contract. I have 3200 signed clients so I need to own 24 tractors with blowers, I need to have 24 employees ready to come to work on short notice 24/7. I have staked all the drives, and got all the routes organized so we are ready to go. Factor in all my costs before I even clear for the first time and you are looking at around 300 grand. (I mentioned 500 grand the last time but that included my commercial work.) I do not understand how charging my clients a seasonal price makes me immoral. whether I service them 15 times or 50 times, I fulfilled my service contract with them.


well for starters the biggest point i would make is that my statement was my own personal moral beliefs. i was not trying to suggest that people who do otherwise are immoral.

secondly in your example you've either serviced them 15 times or 50 times. i was referring to charging them the money and servicing them 0 times. it doesn't matter how much money you spend prepping for the season if you don't set foot on the property to push snow you don't charge them.

again all this is my personal, moral opinions. not trying to say anyone with any other view is immoral.


----------



## SnoFarmer

My residential are on a seasonal plan.
They pay up front.

You could look at it as an insurance policy where you pay and pay and get nothing unless you need service.
Kind of the same thing, snow insurance...ie seasonal rate

morally,,,,,I get the same $$$ if i don't plow or if we service them 50 times they pay the same seasonal rate.

Does your insurance agent refund your $$ if you don't use it?
How "moral" is that?



 yardguy28;1723509 said:


> well for starters the biggest point i would make is that my statement was my own personal moral beliefs. i was not trying to suggest that people who do otherwise are immoral.
> 
> secondly in your example you've either serviced them 15 times or 50 times. i was referring to charging them the money and servicing them 0 times. it doesn't matter how much money you spend prepping for the season if you don't set foot on the property to push snow you don't charge them.
> 
> again all this is my personal, moral opinions. not trying to say anyone with any other view is immoral.


----------



## Antlerart06

yardguy28;1723509 said:


> well for starters the biggest point i would make is that my statement was my own personal moral beliefs. i was not trying to suggest that people who do otherwise are immoral.
> 
> secondly in your example you've either serviced them 15 times or 50 times. i was referring to charging them the money and servicing them 0 times. it doesn't matter how much money you spend prepping for the season if you don't set foot on the property to push snow you don't charge them.
> 
> again all this is my personal, moral opinions. not trying to say anyone with any other view is immoral.


I agree to this in red 
If you don't have no snow do you refund a % back
or do you keep it all
I know some the seasonal contacts that has came my way has it in them You have to give back a %
Then again these are from Nationals contacts


----------



## Wplc

Antlerart06;1723529 said:


> I agree to this in red
> If you don't have no snow do you refund a % back
> or do you keep it all
> I know some the seasonal contacts that has came my way has it in them You have to give back a %
> Then again these are from Nationals contacts


Why would you give them all their money back if you staked and prepped everything? Maybe give them back a percentage so they sign up next year, but even though you didn't show up once there are still expenses..


----------



## jrs.landscaping

When was the last time any of us had zero plowable events in a season.......... ?


----------



## Neige

Antlerart06;1723497 said:


> In the 95 the tractor paid for its self at one Seed job was 150 acres at a new factory
> My tractor work all year The last 8 yrs not much in summer time
> it has total of 3500 hours Last summer never took the plow off never did a thing
> Clutch cost was at 5k but there was other things wrong bearings that was with clutch and + the labor to split it and was done in 5 days from dealer
> I would have done it and saved on labor but it broke during My best Feb I ever had I plowed 22 different storms I didn't have time to fix the tractor + I needed that tractor
> Sorry If I made you :realmad: I was bored with nothing bs over I enjoy it


Well its going to take alot more to make me mad, I have developed a pretty thick skin over the years. Those Feb invoices must have been pretty shocking for your clients.



jrs.landscaping;1723533 said:


> When was the last time any of us had zero plowable events in a season.......... ?


Never happened in my market, 10 plowable was our smallest.


----------



## BUFF

jrs.landscaping;1723533 said:


> When was the last time any of us had zero plowable events in a season.......... ?


With the term insurance policy being referenced, when was the last time you got a rebate for zero claims in designated time period. If people sign up for a seasonal they should understand the ins and outs of what they're getting.


----------



## SnoFarmer

Exactly, We refund ZERO.
It's in the contract.....signed and dated by both parties

It costs $$ to have plows, trucks, operators & INSURANCE, all ready to go at a drop of a snowflake.

In my area we have yet to have a year we didn't service a property multiple times, but if we were in a area that it could happen we wouldn't be refunding $$$
surely, you wouldn't be in business long refunding $$ every year.



Wplc;1723531 said:


> but even though you didn't show up once there are still expenses..


----------



## Antlerart06

Neige;1723541 said:


> Well its going to take alot more to make me mad, I have developed a pretty thick skin over the years. Those Feb invoices must have been pretty shocking for your clients.
> 
> Never happened in my market, 10 plowable was our smallest.


Never got a call on a bill
But they know I work for that money
My winter is maybe 4 months long. The other 8 months I working the other side of the business .
Most of the snow fees are a lot less then the Summer fees. So to the Clients its really a break, So its less shocking.
example I plow one drive for 30 but I mow the guys lawn for 75 
My summer invoices and bigger then my winter time invoices


----------



## Antlerart06

BUFF;1723542 said:


> With the term insurance policy being referenced, when was the last time you got a rebate for zero claims in designated time period. If people sign up for a seasonal they should understand the ins and outs of what they're getting.


 I get refunds on insurance every year From W/C I got back 2500 last summer for year before we had the bad drought and we had less payroll

So you cant tell me Insurance companies don't give refunds

And less claims I have I get a % back for a clean record

If you don't get refunds back you need look at your own Insurance


----------



## grandview

I'm with the other guys,seasonal all the way. As stated,just like insurance You pay your insurance company every year and don't get into an accident you don't get money back. You get into an accident and it cost them more then you paid them,they don't bill you for more that yr,they eat it and raise your rate the next year,maybe. Most people/companies want to know what the cost is every month so they can budget it with no shock. 

Have to go ,will finish thought later!


----------



## CAT 245ME

Neige;1723454 said:


> All our residential are prepay. No more chasing money into the summer months.


I agree 1000% on this.

It's not fair to the contractor to complete the job by a certain time as requested by a homeowner and have to wait until June or July to be paid. That's not acceptable.

I have gone threw it in the past and will never again. If a customer isn't interested in my seasonal contract, that's fine, I move on.


----------



## SnoFarmer

IF you wish to give your money back to the customer you sure can.

as soon as I used the INS example I though of the safe driver rebates etc etc.
anyway.
Or
It's like a gym membership.
You pay up front and sign a contract.
You can use it everyday , all-day or not at all and they don't "pro-rate" it if you don't use it.

I've never heard of any sort of a rebate on commercial vehicle INS or for plowing liability INS 
have you?

Does the guy you bought your plow or truck from give you your money back if you don't use it?

Again, it takes money to be around next year to offer a service even if it is not utilized.

I'm in this to make money, I don't know about you.
I guess your into it to be a nice, but broke businessman.
It's your business model.



Antlerart06;1723568 said:


> I get refunds on insurance every year From W/C I got back 2500 last summer for year before we had the bad drought and we had less payroll
> 
> So you cant tell me Insurance companies don't give refunds
> 
> And less claims I have I get a % back for a clean record
> 
> If you don't get refunds back you need look at your own Insurance


----------



## grandview

Maybe some guys on here are 501(c)?


----------



## SnoFarmer

Could be....

All of the non-profits I know of make a lot of money.
They don't give it back, if they make a profit, they spend it or they give their employes a raise/bounces or they buy new equipment etc etc.

or some guys on here don't like to make a profit?



grandview;1723668 said:


> Maybe some guys on here are 501(c)?


----------



## Dogplow Dodge

SnoFarmer;1723659 said:


> I've never heard of any sort of a rebate on commercial vehicle INS or for plowing liability INS
> have you?
> 
> .


Yes.

New Jersey Manufactures Commercial insurance does it. It's not actually a rebate, but a redistribution of dividends back to the customers policies. It has nothing to do with being claim free over the year, other than it's relationship to how much profit the insurance corp. made that year. We get "credits" towards our policies each year, averaging $300 or so. Is it really a rebate ? I don't know. It could be we're being overcharged, and then it's given back as some sort of PR thing.

The reality is, that I've had no claims. I pay about $1200 per truck (3 trucks) each year. With no claims, I don't get my $3600 back, but roughly 10%. If you do a seasonal, and want to be generous by giving some back... so be it. That's a great way of making your customers feel you're really appreciating them. Makes me feel better when I see that credit on the bill each year.

Unfortunately, in the year you get killed with 4000 storms in a season, and you've doubled, tripled or quadrupled the normal number of visits / time on their property, I don't believe they would be very understanding with you telling them they owed you XXX.XX more because of the smacking Mother Nature gave you. Seasonals are supposed to be averaged out over a period of years, and no one cares that this year you took a beating.


----------



## SnoFarmer

^ I know the INS was a bad example.
My commercial liability ins does not give me a kick back/discount.
I'm sol,

We do get a safe driver discount on out non-work vehicles

hey. grandview?
which out would he fall under.
501.

According to the IRS Publication 557†, in the Organization Reference Chart section, the following is an exact list of 501(c) organization types and their corresponding descriptions.[1]

501(c)(1) - Corporations Organized Under Act of Congress (including Federal Credit Unions)
501(c)(2) - Title Holding Corporation for Exempt Organization[2]
501(c)(3) - Religious, Educational, Charitable, Scientific, Literary, Testing for Public Safety, to Foster National or International Amateur Sports Competition, or Prevention of Cruelty to Children or Animals Organizations
501(c)(4) - Civic Leagues, Social Welfare Organizations, and Local Associations of Employees
501(c)(5) - Labor, Agricultural and Horticultural Organizations
501(c)(6) - Business Leagues, Chambers of Commerce, Real Estate Boards, etc.
501(c)(7) - Social and Recreational Clubs
501(c)(8) - Fraternal Beneficiary Societies and Associations
501(c)(9) - Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Associations
501(c)(10) - Domestic Fraternal Societies and Associations
501(c)(11) - Teachers' Retirement Fund Associations
501(c)(12) - Benevolent Life Insurance Associations, Mutual Ditch or Irrigation Companies, Mutual or Cooperative Telephone Companies, etc.
501(c)(13) - Cemetery Companies
501(c)(14) - State-Chartered Credit Unions, Mutual Reserve Funds
501(c)(15) - Mutual Insurance Companies or Associations
501(c)(16) - Cooperative Organizations to Finance Crop Operations
501(c)(17) - Supplemental Unemployment Benefit Trusts
501(c)(18) - Employee Funded Pension Trust (created before June 25, 1959)
501(c)(19) - Post or Organization of Past or Present Members of the Armed Forces
501(c)(20) - Group Legal Services Plan Organizations
501(c)(21) - Black lung Benefit Trusts
501(c)(22) - Withdrawal Liability Payment Fund
501(c)(23) - Veterans Organization (created before 1880)
501(c)(24) - Section 4049 ERISA Trusts
501(c)(25) - Title Holding Corporations or Trusts with Multiple Parents
501(c)(26) - State-Sponsored Organization Providing Health Coverage for High-Risk Individuals
501(c)(27) - State-Sponsored Workers' Compensation Reinsurance Organization
501(c)(28) - National Railroad Retirement Investment Trust
501(c)(29) - Qualified Nonprofit Health Insurance Issuers (Created in section 1322(h)(1) of the Affordable Care Act)[3]

,Dogplow Dodge, 
If you have a seasonal contract and you have an exceptional snow year you would not ask for more $$$,.:
That's part of the seasonal gig.
It costs the home owner the same, even if you have a big snow year.
That is a selling point of a seasonal.

and on a low snow year you don't give a refund.
That is how you make up for the low $$ season where you plowed often.
that is how it hopefully balances out.
again, my rates are recessional and I'm into to maximize my profit.

to make them feel better. I won't charge them for that late spring snow plowing that happens after the contract runs out.
I have yet to loose a Resi customer.


----------



## yardguy28

SnoFarmer;1723522 said:


> My residential are on a seasonal plan.
> They pay up front.
> 
> You could look at it as an insurance policy where you pay and pay and get nothing unless you need service.
> Kind of the same thing, snow insurance...ie seasonal rate
> 
> morally,,,,,I get the same $$$ if i don't plow or if we service them 50 times they pay the same seasonal rate.
> 
> Does your insurance agent refund your $$ if you don't use it?
> How "moral" is that?


I see the angle your taking but personally don't see offering snow removal as an insurance policy.

I'm hired by the client to remove the snow when it snows and I get paid when I do it. no snow, no work which means no pay. just like cutting there grass. when the grass doesn't need cut that's no work for me which mean no pay.

again though I'm not calling anyone immoral or trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just saying for me personally this is the way I do it and the reason I do it this way is because for me personally I couldn't sleep at night taking people's money for work not completed.



Wplc;1723531 said:


> Why would you give them all their money back if you staked and prepped everything? Maybe give them back a percentage so they sign up next year, but even though you didn't show up once there are still expenses..


you might consider staking and prepping equipment something to be paid for by the client but I don't share that idea. those are things you do to be able to offer a service and you take a risk that the service won't be needed. those are things covered from clients paying you for actually pushing snow on there property. not things you get paid for regardless.

everyone is free and encouraged to do things how they see fit. but your not convincing me that seasonal pricing is the way to go. I have and always will invoice for only work completed. no work done at a clients property no invoice.


----------



## SnoFarmer

Your on the per push model.
I do my commercial lots this way, no snow, no pay.

We are discussion a seasonal contract,
If you know your AVG seasonal snowfall and the avg rates of snow fall per event in your area you can guestamate how many times you will need to service a client.
(a few years of experience and you will know the AVG times you plow a year.)

so, you base for fee on (example) on servicing them 10-15 times.
You sell,them a contract for $x 
They PAY up front or in 2 payments.
This way if it doesn't snow your still around next year.

How much did it cost you to have trucks, plows, snow~blower, shovels,salt INS, and operators at the ready on that year it didn't snow?
It cost you $$$ to just sit at the ready.
and it will cost you more $$ to be at the ready next year if your still around.
It's the clients money that allows you to be or remain in business.
It's a contract, they didn't have to go with it.

But you did work.even if you didn't plow, being on call 24-7 and having equipment and personal at the ready costs money.
This operating capital comes from the client.

no money=no business.
it's time to close the doors



yardguy28;1723701 said:


> I see the angle your taking but personally don't see offering snow removal as an insurance policy.
> 
> I'm hired by the client to remove the snow when it snows and I get paid when I do it. no snow, no work which means no pay. just like cutting there grass. when the grass doesn't need cut that's no work for me which mean no pay.
> 
> again though I'm not calling anyone immoral or trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just saying for me personally this is the way I do it and the reason I do it this way is because for me personally I couldn't sleep at night taking people's money for work not completed.
> 
> you might consider staking and prepping equipment something to be paid for by the client but I don't share that idea. those are things you do to be able to offer a service and you take a risk that the service won't be needed. those are things covered from clients paying you for actually pushing snow on there property. not things you get paid for regardless.
> 
> everyone is free and encouraged to do things how they see fit. but your not convincing me that seasonal pricing is the way to go. I have and always will invoice for only work completed. no work done at a clients property no invoice.


----------



## grandview

Around here,people pay willing for a seasonal snow plow and don't care if it snows or not. But on the other hand very hard to try and sell a seasonal lawn cutting,they think they are getting ripped off if you don't cut the lawn every week .

snow 501(c) (17)


----------



## yardguy28

around my neck of the woods people think they are getting ripped off ANY time you charge them for a service you didn't do.

i'm starting to guess that location has a part in whether you can sell or even should sell seasonal prices. so far since the winter season started which is generally the end of nov beginning of dec we have had 2 plowable snows. granted this season those 2 snows were large amounts where we were able to visit each client at least twice but still, 2 plowable snows.

try and sell seasonal prices in my neck of the woods and people will tell you to take a hike. if they are paying ANY amount of money, they want something done. people don't see it as paying you to be on call and at the ready 24/7. and quite frankly i don't blame them and can't expect them to because i don't agree with that either.

i would NEVER and i mean NEVER pay someone for a seasonal anything. the only exception i've made to this is insurance and thats only because you have to have it by law. i'm the type of person that if i'm shelling out money of any amount, i want something in return, a tangible item or a service performed. i wouldn't pay a cent until some snow fell and a truck was in my driveway plowing it.


----------



## grandview

What about warranties on anything you buy new? Do you ask for money back if you didn't use it?


----------



## yardguy28

well no, but i'm hoping you and others get my point.

in my neck of the woods seasonal snow contracts can't be done, not by residentials anyway. i think some commercial lots might pay that way.

most commericals are given an hourly rate and just invoiced the price after the storms or at the end of the month.

ALL residentials pay per push and invoiced after the storm, end of week or end of the month.

i don't expect my clients to do anything i wouldn't be willing to do myself. and i would be very unwilling to pay for seasonal snow removal.


----------



## Whiffyspark

yardguy28;1723758 said:


> well no, but i'm hoping you and others get my point.
> 
> in my neck of the woods seasonal snow contracts can't be done, not by residentials anyway. i think some commercial lots might pay that way.
> 
> most commericals are given an hourly rate and just invoiced the price after the storms or at the end of the month.
> 
> ALL residentials pay per push and invoiced after the storm, end of week or end of the month.
> 
> i don't expect my clients to do anything i wouldn't be willing to do myself. and i would be very unwilling to pay for seasonal snow removal.


It only takes one person to change the market


----------



## Neige

yardguy28;1723748 said:


> around my neck of the woods people think they are getting ripped off ANY time you charge them for a service you didn't do.
> 
> i'm starting to guess that location has a part in whether you can sell or even should sell seasonal prices. so far since the winter season started which is generally the end of nov beginning of dec we have had 2 plowable snows. granted this season those 2 snows were large amounts where we were able to visit each client at least twice but still, 2 plowable snows.
> 
> try and sell seasonal prices in my neck of the woods and people will tell you to take a hike. if they are paying ANY amount of money, they want something done. people don't see it as paying you to be on call and at the ready 24/7. and quite frankly i don't blame them and can't expect them to because i don't agree with that either.
> 
> i would NEVER and i mean NEVER pay someone for a seasonal anything. the only exception i've made to this is insurance and thats only because you have to have it by law. i'm the type of person that if i'm shelling out money of any amount, i want something in return, a tangible item or a service performed. i wouldn't pay a cent until some snow fell and a truck was in my driveway plowing it.


Thats fine we have people in my market that will only pay if and when it snows. We will charge them $45.00 for each plow, and we will get to them once we have serviced our own clients first. (We do not have a service contract with these people.) Its very interesting to see thier reactions in a big snow storm when they call us 3 times to plow them out. Most decide right then and there to sign up for the balance of the season. We will use 100% of their 3 plow payment towards the seasonal price. We tell them they have 7 days to decide to use that payment towards the seasonal price. If you are doing per push driveways without contract stipulations then fine it makes sense to only pay if you get serviced.
Maybe you can look at it this way. The Quebec city airport has a fire station, trucks and equipment. They have fire fighters on staff 24/7 and they have never been out on a single call in over 15 years. Do you find it unfair as a passanger that part of your airfair is going to pay for this service that you did not have to use?


----------



## grandview

yardguy28;1723758 said:


> well no, but i'm hoping you and others get my point.
> 
> in my neck of the woods seasonal snow contracts can't be done, not by residentials anyway. i think some commercial lots might pay that way.
> 
> most commericals are given an hourly rate and just invoiced the price after the storms or at the end of the month.
> 
> ALL residentials pay per push and invoiced after the storm, end of week or end of the month.
> 
> i don't expect my clients to do anything i wouldn't be willing to do myself. and i would be very unwilling to pay for seasonal snow removal.


Well have you tried it? Send out renewls early in the season and see what happens.


Whiffyspark;1723761 said:


> It only takes one person to change the market


Yes,just like trying to push the market price up.


----------



## Neige

yardguy28;1723758 said:


> well no, but i'm hoping you and others get my point.
> 
> in my neck of the woods seasonal snow contracts can't be done, not by residentials anyway. i think some commercial lots might pay that way.
> 
> most commericals are given an hourly rate and just invoiced the price after the storms or at the end of the month.
> 
> ALL residentials pay per push and invoiced after the storm, end of week or end of the month.
> 
> i don't expect my clients to do anything i wouldn't be willing to do myself. and i would be very unwilling to pay for seasonal snow removal.


Yardguy28 I get your point, in my market per push accounts would never sell. Everyone wants seasonal so that they can budget it, so there are no surprises at the end of the year. But when you say seasonal contracts are unfair to the client on low snow years, thats the point we are tring to explain to you.


----------



## Dogplow Dodge

SnoFarmer;1723684 said:


> ^
> ,Dogplow Dodge,
> *If you have a seasonal contract and you have an exceptional snow year you would not ask for more $$$,.:*
> That's part of the seasonal gig. It costs the home owner the same, even if you have a big snow year.That is a selling point of a seasonal.
> 
> and on a low snow year you don't give a refund.
> That is how you make up for the low $$ season where you plowed often.
> that is how it hopefully balances out.


Really ????  I had no idea !

I do, however, truly appreciate the advice. Thumbs Up

:laughing:


----------



## dycproperties

Wow I just read through this whole thread and it really confirms what I see locally is the way it is everywhere in that a lot of people in this industry have no buisness owning a buisness. Anyone who has been in the snow industry for any amount of time knows that a large portion of our overhead is fixed and therefore does not change. The arguments against seasonal seem very nieve from a buisness standpoint. How is it good buisness to gamble on snow fall to pay those bills. I understand some low snow areas the market won't allow it but in any area that its possible seasonal pricing as much as possible is a very smart way to stabalize a buisness. Our residential customers are all seasonal and I decided five years ago that is the only way we will be in the residential market. We get paid in full by oct31 for the season and this is the one part of our operation that is not cash flowed by other work,while we wait to get paid. In this day and age work completed is not money in the bank and unfortunately we often wait 90 days to be paid for work completed. I feel like seasonal rates are key to any successful residential operation.


----------



## Whiffyspark

yardguy28;1723758 said:


> well no, but i'm hoping you and others get my point.
> 
> in my neck of the woods seasonal snow contracts can't be done, not by residentials anyway. i think some commercial lots might pay that way.
> 
> most commericals are given an hourly rate and just invoiced the price after the storms or at the end of the month.
> 
> ALL residentials pay per push and invoiced after the storm, end of week or end of the month.
> 
> i don't expect my clients to do anything i wouldn't be willing to do myself. and i would be very unwilling to pay for seasonal snow removal.


Do you have employees? Or another source of income in the winter?


----------



## 32vld

peteo1;1723492 said:


> This sounds like obumblenomics. Why not increase your price? Fuel, insurance, repair, maintenance, payroll, taxes,etc go up every year. You say 20% is too much. That's a 4% increase every year which most think is reasonable. You seem to take more of an issue with Neige making a solid profit than you do him charging seasonal rates.


I did not say raising the price 20% was to much.

The premise for seasonal pricing is that in the light years the contractor makes a surplus to cover the years where it snows heavy.

Well he had 5 years before that bad year to build up a surplus because he is on seasonal pricing. So if he had a surplus then there was no need to raise his prices after the storm 20%.

He made the claim that 20% increase for the next 5 years made up for that one bad year.

His pricing was giving him a surplus before that bad year. It should of built up another surplus for him again.

Neither him or you can answer that.


----------



## peteo1

32vld;1724069 said:


> I did not say raising the price 20% was to much.
> 
> The premise for seasonal pricing is that in the light years the contractor makes a surplus to cover the years where it snows heavy.
> 
> Well he had 5 years before that bad year to build up a surplus because he is on seasonal pricing. So if he had a surplus then there was no need to raise his prices after the storm 20%.
> 
> He made the claim that 20% increase for the next 5 years made up for that one bad year.
> 
> His pricing was giving him a surplus before that bad year. It should of built up another surplus for him again.
> 
> Neither him or you can answer that.


I disagree on the simple fact that your argument only works if every cost taken into consideration stays status quo. In reality that doesn't happen. Every thing gets more expensive every single year and regardless of any surplus built up in previous years, raising ones rates to keep up with costs is just smart business.


----------



## grandview

First off ,profit is not a bad word. Like every other business ,that's what you want.


----------



## 32vld

peteo1;1724080 said:


> I disagree on the simple fact that your argument only works if every cost taken into consideration stays status quo. In reality that doesn't happen. Every thing gets more expensive every single year and regardless of any surplus built up in previous years, raising ones rates to keep up with costs is just smart business.


His costs went up 20%? He did not state that. All he said was he raised his price as a result of not making much money that year.

He was on seasonal before that bad year so he should of had a surplus to cover that year.


----------



## Whiffyspark

32vld;1724091 said:


> His costs went up 20%? He did not state that. All he said was he raised his price as a result of not making much money that year.
> 
> He was on seasonal before that bad year so he should of had a surplus to cover that year.


Seasonal or not you still need to show a profit every year to survive. Climates changes. Times changes. Labor changes.

Nothing wrong with raising prices for whatever reason you need to.

We should go complain to the gas companies about how much they raise fuel prices


----------



## grandview

32vld;1724091 said:


> His costs went up 20%? He did not state that. All he said was he raised his price as a result of not making much money that year.
> 
> He was on seasonal before that bad year so he should of had a surplus to cover that year.


Just like car makers,Profits are down.:crying:


----------



## yardguy28

Whiffyspark;1723761 said:


> It only takes one person to change the market


but since i'm not interested in changing the market your point is what?

i believe my last post said i don't expect my clients to do anything i wouldn't be willing to do myself. i would NEVER since a season contract for anything so i will never expect my clients to do that either.



Whiffyspark;1723837 said:


> Do you have employees? Or another source of income in the winter?


i have neither.


----------



## 32vld

grandview;1724101 said:


> Just like car makers,Profits are down.:crying:


We are all to big to fail. Obama better bail us all out. ussmileyflag


----------



## mnlefty

32vld;1724091 said:


> His costs went up 20%? He did not state that. All he said was he raised his price *as a result of not making much money that year.
> *
> He was on seasonal before that bad year so he should of had a surplus to cover that year.


Neige doesn't need me to defend him, but he never said that either. He simply stated he raised prices...

Much easier for a seasonal contractor to raise prices after a snowy year where he took home less, vs. a per push guy raising prices after a light year where he made less.

I also don't think there's a fair comparison going on here by guys who have said that summer work is their main business and pays the bills and that they plow to keep customers or stay busy. Big difference between that and guys who run a snow removal business.


----------



## Antlerart06

SnoFarmer;1723659 said:


> IF you wish to give your money back to the customer you sure can.
> 
> as soon as I used the INS example I though of the safe driver rebates etc etc.
> anyway.
> Or
> It's like a gym membership.
> You pay up front and sign a contract.
> You can use it everyday , all-day or not at all and they don't "pro-rate" it if you don't use it.
> 
> I've never heard of any sort of a rebate on commercial vehicle INS or for plowing liability INS
> have you?
> 
> Does the guy you bought your plow or truck from give you your money back if you don't use it?
> 
> Again, it takes money to be around next year to offer a service even if it is not utilized.
> 
> I'm in this to make money, I don't know about you.
> I guess your into it to be a nice, but broke businessman.
> It's your business model.


 Im never broke I been around since 1981 So I think know how to run a business 
Im not in debt either everything is paid for

So I must be a good businessman

I wont go any farther on this subject


----------



## JimMarshall

mnlefty;1724126 said:


> Neige doesn't need me to defend him, but he never said that either. He simply stated he raised prices...
> 
> Much easier for a seasonal contractor to raise prices after a snowy year where he took home less, vs. a per push guy raising prices after a light year where he made less.
> 
> I also don't think there's a fair comparison going on here by guys who have said that summer work is their main business and pays the bills and that they plow to keep customers or stay busy. Big difference between that and guys who run a snow removal business.


It is possible to run a landscaping business as your primary source of income AND run a snow and ice management company as well


----------



## Antlerart06

grandview;1723754 said:


> What about warranties on anything you buy new? Do you ask for money back if you didn't use it?


Well I bought my Toro Blower on a deal If I don't get a % of snow fall in first winter Toro will buy it back
Dealer added if I don't like it He would buy it back or upgrade to a bigger size 
But I 'll be keeping it since I like it to much to take it back


----------



## 32vld

Neige;1723065 said:


> I am going to disagree with your statement. Our company has been around 52 years and all we have ever done is seasonal accounts. Year after year we can count on similar profits. Sure on the big winters we make less, but even 6 years ago when we almost got double our average snowfall we made money. Then the next year we increased our price 20% and we have had nothing but average snow falls since. That 20% we get every year for the last 5 years has more then made up for the small profit from the big year.


MNLEFTY,

52 years of seasonal building up reserves.

Admitting that big years they make less. Justifying for him to do seasonal billing.

He then has a year with double the snow fall though still makes a small profit.

So if seasonal pricing is working and his pricing is where it should be why the need to increase prices the next year 20%?

His remark that the 20% price increase over 5 years made up for the small profit that bad year.

If seasonal pricing is working and providing surplus why is it necessary to raise prices after one bad year by 20%?

They way he wrote his price increase implies that he pays lip service to seasonal pricing when in reality he wants a big profit in low snow fall and high snow falls as well.

Between my landscaping and snow I can not see my costs going up 20% in one year.

I can see a greenhorn not knowing how to price starting out he can of priced jobs so low that he needs to raise his prices more then 20% for the next year. This guy has been in business for 52 years.

His numbers and reasons do not line up to me.


----------



## snoworks1

yardguy28;1723748 said:


> around my neck of the woods people think they are getting ripped off ANY time you charge them for a service you didn't do.
> 
> i'm starting to guess that location has a part in whether you can sell or even should sell seasonal prices. so far since the winter season started which is generally the end of nov beginning of dec we have had 2 plowable snows. granted this season those 2 snows were large amounts where we were able to visit each client at least twice but still, 2 plowable snows.
> 
> try and sell seasonal prices in my neck of the woods and people will tell you to take a hike. if they are paying ANY amount of money, they want something done. people don't see it as paying you to be on call and at the ready 24/7. and quite frankly i don't blame them and can't expect them to because i don't agree with that either.
> 
> i would NEVER and i mean NEVER pay someone for a seasonal anything. the only exception i've made to this is insurance and thats only because you have to have it by law. i'm the type of person that if i'm shelling out money of any amount, i want something in return, a tangible item or a service performed. i wouldn't pay a cent until some snow fell and a truck was in my driveway plowing it.


No sense beating a dead horse on all the other things being discussed, but I did want to bring up one point that may change your viewpoint, dare I say a little.

At the end of the day a seasonal package is better for both parties(Over several seasons), with regards to cost paid by the customer vs. revenue collected by the snowplow contractor. I had several per plow customers, these were long term customers that always signed my per plow contract vs. my seasonal contract. 3 out of 5 years they paid three and a half times more than what there seasonal rate was. Finally after 10 years they went to the seasonal contract.

A seasonal contract is beneficial for both parties involved. What's the reason why? Here is what we provide to our seasonal customers at no additional charge, if they sign with us.

-20% discount on plowing. We still base our plowing on per plow rates. First we look at the driveway, plug in our pp figure and the computer program factors in a 20% cost savings.
-We do not charge extra for snowfalls over 6".
-We do not charge extra for snowfalls over 12".
-We provide end of service apron windrow cleaning at no additional charge.

The customer does get good benefits for singing a seasonal contract, its really a win/win IMHO.

To look at it another way. I have gone out 14 times already this year. 4 times we plowed over 6". On a typical per plow contract we would charge double after 6". So take my $32.50 average seasonal, per plow rate and factor in and additional 20%; equals $39.00 per plow. $39 pp x 14 = $546.00 + $39 pp x 4 = $156.00 for a total of $702.00. My seasonal contract total would be $325.00.

I am sitting here right now telling you that half of my per plow customers would be out searching for new snowplowing contractors if I billed them $702.00 this year. Not that it would be wrong for me to bill them or for them to look for another contractor, it's there right to do so. Can we call you a gouger for asking for this money, no we can't.

I use the above example all the time when speaking with a potential new client. The seasonal contract is not "one sided"!


----------



## snoworks1

32vld;1724301 said:


> MNLEFTY,
> 
> 52 years of seasonal building up reserves.
> 
> Admitting that big years they make less. Justifying for him to do seasonal billing.
> 
> He then has a year with double the snow fall though still makes a small profit.
> 
> So if seasonal pricing is working and his pricing is where it should be why the need to increase prices the next year 20%?
> 
> His remark that the 20% price increase over 5 years made up for the small profit that bad year.
> 
> If seasonal pricing is working and providing surplus why is it necessary to raise prices after one bad year by 20%?
> 
> They way he wrote his price increase implies that he pays lip service to seasonal pricing when in reality he wants a big profit in low snow fall and high snow falls as well.
> 
> Between my landscaping and snow I can not see my costs going up 20% in one year.
> 
> I can see a greenhorn not knowing how to price starting out he can of priced jobs so low that he needs to raise his prices more then 20% for the next year. This guy has been in business for 52 years.
> 
> His numbers and reasons do not line up to me.


I see your point here! Maybe just maybe, he meant something different than what he typed. Perhaps he has not raised his prices in 10 years and the low snow year was the icing on the cake to make him look at his numbers again and decide to finally raise his rates. I mean gas has gone up $2.00 a gallon in the last 10 years alone. Add in labor, insurance and equipment increases and you get my drift.


----------



## snoworks1

Antlerart06;1724227 said:


> Well I bought my Toro Blower on a deal If I don't get a % of snow fall in first winter Toro will buy it back
> Dealer added if I don't like it He would buy it back or upgrade to a bigger size
> But I 'll be keeping it since I like it to much to take it back


That's a great deal!


----------



## SnoFarmer

Why not go farther?
I'm a good businessman too.
We offer excellent service at a reasonable price.
I got a year on ya.Thumbs Up.started (legit) in 1980
Then some were trying to throw morals around?



Antlerart06;1724129 said:


> Im never broke I been around since 1981 So I think know how to run a business
> Im not in debt either everything is paid for
> So I must be a good businessman
> I wont go any farther on this subject


Thumbs Up


grandview;1724081 said:


> First off ,profit is not a bad word. Like every other business ,that's what you want.


Have you tried to sell a seasonal contract?
Because I too once thought the same way.
Then I tried it.
They liked it.

I hate to admit it but it was years of listening to Grandview that made me try it.



yardguy28;1723758 said:


> well no, but i'm hoping you and others get my point.
> 
> in my neck of the woods seasonal snow contracts can't be done, not by residentials anyway. i think some commercial lots might pay that way.


How does that work, plowing by the hr?
Do you plow slowly and inefficiently?
Their is no incentive to get it done.
It doesn't sound moral?

I'd never hire a plow-jockey by the hr to plow my lot.
by the job (per push) or by a seasonal contract.

What happens when you buy bigger and more efferent equipment?
or you become proficient?
Essentially taking a pay cut while increasing your overhead.



yardguy28;1723758 said:


> most commericals are given an hourly rate and just invoiced the price after the storms or at the end of the month.
> 
> ALL residentials pay per push and invoiced after the storm, end of week or end of the month.


They like it, no surprises, no waiting to see if it snows a lot or if it doesn't.
No monthly (or more often) bill to pay.
This allows them to have a budget that is not blown apart by a high snow removal bill on those heavy months.


yardguy28;1723758 said:


> i don't expect my clients to do anything i wouldn't be willing to do myself. and i would be very unwilling to pay for seasonal snow removal.


----------



## 32vld

snoworks1;1724307 said:


> I see your point here! Maybe just maybe, he meant something different than what he typed. Perhaps he has not raised his prices in 10 years and the low snow year was the icing on the cake to make him look at his numbers again and decide to finally raise his rates. I mean gas has gone up $2.00 a gallon in the last 10 years alone. Add in labor, insurance and equipment increases and you get my drift.


I will say that sometimes I will read a post of mine and say how did I write that it was not clear.


----------



## Antlerart06

SnoFarmer;1724345 said:


> Why not go farther?
> I'm a good businessman too.
> We offer excellent service at a reasonable price.
> I got a year on ya.Thumbs Up.started (legit) in 1980
> Then some were trying to throw morals around?
> 
> Thumbs Up
> 
> Have you tried to sell a seasonal contract?
> Because I too once thought the same way.
> Then I tried it.
> They liked it.
> 
> .


Nope and wont
To many tried it and got burned around here 
In your area might be the thing but here snow fall is off the chart one year you might get 10'' and next year we get 50'' or more or we get no snow at all I seen that a lot over the years with no snow fall.
I wont gamble my business either on snow Lawn Service I'll sell a seasonal I know how many weeks grass grows.
Snow is a gamble period

I have one snow seasonal I didn't sell it. I tried get them go with per visit But they said nope. So they are paying me to watch the place which is dumb. But if people wants to waste there money I guess I'll take it.
To make sure Im covered I price it high. I didn't get it the first time around but after the guy walk off during the 2nd snowfall They had no choice they had to go with me. 
But it can still come back bite me in my bass.
So come March 31 I'll be able tell you if there was a profit
With my per visit contacts I can tell you each month what my profit is


----------



## mnlefty

JimMarshall;1724212 said:


> It is possible to run a landscaping business as your primary source of income AND run a snow and ice management company as well


Agree completely... but in the context of seasonal contracts ensuring overhead costs are covered in the case of little to no snow... somebody who "doesn't need to do snow" because of summer profits obviously views their operating costs quite differently.



Antlerart06;1723195 said:


> In my eyes Seasonal is more of a gamble
> What I do in the summer I don't need a profit in winter time to keep my doors open
> But Having full service year contacts I have to do the snow





yardguy28;1723370 said:


> snow removal for me is just icing on the cake. my lawn maintenance business is what supports me 100%. I do snow removal as one more way to take care of my clients. I could just as easily go to FL for the winter months and be just fine.


----------



## mnlefty

32vld;1724301 said:


> MNLEFTY,
> 
> So if seasonal pricing is working and his pricing is where it should be *why the need* to increase prices the next year 20%?
> 
> His remark that the *20% price increase over 5* years made up for the small profit that bad year.
> 
> If seasonal pricing is working and providing surplus why is it *necessary to raise prices after one bad year by 20%*?
> 
> They way he wrote his price increase implies that he pays lip service to seasonal pricing when in reality he wants a big profit in low snow fall and high snow falls as well.
> 
> Between my landscaping and snow I can not see my costs going up 20% in one year.
> 
> I can see a greenhorn not knowing how to price starting out he can of priced jobs so low that he needs to raise his prices more then 20% for the next year. This guy has been in business for 52 years.
> 
> His numbers and reasons do not line up to me.


Well I'd still say you're reading in to it what you want to see... nowhere did he say it was _necessary_ to raise prices because of the big year, however it is the perfect time to make an increase that might have been necessary just due to inflation factors, while the big snow is fresh in their minds. And a price increase once in the last 5+ years... are you charging the same prices you were 5 years ago? Were your increases _necessary_, or are you just trying to make as much profit as you can?

Well planned seasonals can work out for everybody, and I'd say that after 52 years and 3000+ accounts he's found a model and pricing structure that works for him and his customers.


----------



## grandview

50 inches of snow is a mild winter! In my opinion ,guys with per plows tend to have so many accounts because they don't know how much snow they will get in a season and they figure if they are only charging when it snow who cares when it gets done. Seasonal guys tend not to take on as many because they know how much money will come in.


----------



## grandview

SnoFarmer;1724345 said:


> Why not go farther?
> I'm a good businessman too.
> We offer excellent service at a reasonable price.
> I got a year on ya.Thumbs Up.started (legit) in 1980
> Then some were trying to throw morals around?
> 
> Thumbs Up
> 
> Have you tried to sell a seasonal contract?
> Because I too once thought the same way.
> Then I tried it.
> They liked it.
> *
> I hate to admit it but it was years of listening to Grandview that made me try it.
> *
> 
> How does that work, plowing by the hr?
> Do you plow slowly and inefficiently?
> Their is no incentive to get it done.
> It doesn't sound moral?
> 
> I'd never hire a plow-jockey by the hr to plow my lot.
> by the job (per push) or by a seasonal contract.
> 
> What happens when you buy bigger and more efferent equipment?
> or you become proficient?
> Essentially taking a pay cut while increasing your overhead.
> 
> They like it, no surprises, no waiting to see if it snows a lot or if it doesn't.
> No monthly (or more often bill to pay.
> This allows them to have a budget that is not blown apart by a high snow removal bill on those heavy months.


 .................


----------



## JimMarshall

mnlefty;1724571 said:


> Agree completely... but in the context of seasonal contracts ensuring overhead costs are covered in the case of little to no snow... somebody who "doesn't need to do snow" because of summer profits obviously views their operating costs quite differently.


True, but I still have overhead in the winter..... 2 mechanics, office staff, etc.....I don't want to eat into summer profits to pay for that


----------



## yardguy28

snoworks1;1724302 said:


> No sense beating a dead horse on all the other things being discussed, but I did want to bring up one point that may change your viewpoint, dare I say a little.
> 
> At the end of the day a seasonal package is better for both parties(Over several seasons), with regards to cost paid by the customer vs. revenue collected by the snowplow contractor. I had several per plow customers, these were long term customers that always signed my per plow contract vs. my seasonal contract. 3 out of 5 years they *paid three and a half times* more than what there seasonal rate was. Finally after 10 years they went to the seasonal contract.


after this post that makes me wanna keep it per push prices. I make more money that way. why would I wanna go to seasonal contracts when I make more when it snows more. 6" is a double visit charge because I make 2 visits. 12" is a triple visit charge because I make 3 visits.

I'm all for helping out my clients but with the way I do my invoicing it's pretty cut and dry. when I work I make money, if I don't work no money. the client ONLY pays when work is done.



SnoFarmer;1724345 said:


> Why not go farther?
> I'm a good businessman too.
> We offer excellent service at a reasonable price.
> I got a year on ya.Thumbs Up.started (legit) in 1980
> Then some were trying to throw morals around?
> 
> Thumbs Up
> 
> Have you tried to sell a seasonal contract?
> Because I too once thought the same way.
> Then I tried it.
> They liked it.
> 
> They like it, no surprises, no waiting to see if it snows a lot or if it doesn't.
> No monthly (or more often) bill to pay.
> This allows them to have a budget that is not blown apart by a high snow removal bill on those heavy months.


no trying it because I know my market and what guys do. I'd be hard pressed to find someone who does seasonal contracts. and I'm not interested in trying it anyway cause as I said I don't expect my clients to do anything I wouldn't do. and if you tried to sell me a seasonal contract I'd tell you to take a hike I'm not interested.

my clients seem to like the way I do my invoicing. they don't "wait" to see if snows a lot. they go about there lives. it's my job to take care of the snow when it comes.

I'm done discussing this. I wasn't trying to knock anyone's way of doing things just putting out there how I do things and why. I don't agree with seasonal prices and you don't agree with per push prices. no big deal, end of argument.


----------



## jrs.landscaping

32, if you further read his posts you'll read he charges $5 per push. So really how much is that increase to customers......... I don't think paying an extra dollar per push is going to break his clients budget.

We must be the most immoral company out there we have 80% seasonal for both seasons......... we also have an hourly commercial account


----------



## road2damascus

I dont do seasonals either. I just get paid for the work I do and understand that snow is a gamble.

I love the idea of seasonal contracts. It would make my life a lot easier! But it doesn't seem to work with the customer. Always getting paid for the exact work you do, with agreed upon prices doesn't create bad relationships or feelings toward contractor and client. Some give me money upfront but that doesn't change my price per push. 

I have one client who owns a house both in Illinois and Colorado. We had a conversation about overhead and how to make a living in two different areas in the snow business. One area gets 20+ residential plows, Colorado, and one gets 10, Chicago. His driveway is very very similar at both homes. He pays 35 per push in Colorado for what he pays me 65 in illinois. I explained to him our overhead is probably similar and have to charge accordingly to stay in the business and make a profit. He understood.


----------



## Neige

32vld;1724301 said:


> MNLEFTY,
> 
> 52 years of seasonal building up reserves.
> 
> What do you mean by reserves? Do you mean profit? Is that not the idea?
> 
> Admitting that big years they make less. Justifying for him to do seasonal billing.
> 
> Big years has nothing to do with seasonal billing. Seasonal contracts are a mutually benificial to both parties.
> 
> He then has a year with double the snow fall though still makes a small profit.
> 
> Is that not a good thing?
> 
> So if seasonal pricing is working and his pricing is where it should be why the need to increase prices the next year 20%?
> 
> There is a big difference in where prices should be and what the market is willing to pay. There is no one on plowsite including you who thinks I am charging enough. This became an oppertunity to increase our prices without any push back from clients. We ended up signing everyone up and adding 8% more clients the year of the price increase.
> 
> His remark that the 20% price increase over 5 years made up for the small profit that bad year.
> 
> Solid business plan I would think.
> 
> If seasonal pricing is working and providing surplus why is it necessary to raise prices after one bad year by 20%?
> 
> Here again with the surplus. Are you saying profit above profit? I do not understand.
> 
> 
> They way he wrote his price increase implies that he pays lip service to seasonal pricing when in reality he wants a big profit in low snow fall and high snow falls as well.
> 
> Once again I am not sure what you are implying. A solid business plan would have me in a position that I never lose money. Seasonal contracts is how we have made that work. I should be making profits every single year.
> 
> Between my landscaping and snow I can not see my costs going up 20% in one year.
> 
> You seem to have a problem with my 20% increase. But you have mentioned that this is your 6th year and you have gone from $40.00 to charging $100.00 now. You were making a profit at $40, just decided you wanted to make more. I am very happy for you that you are able to get $100. Oh by the way how many clients are paying you $100.00?
> 
> I can see a greenhorn not knowing how to price starting out he can of priced jobs so low that he needs to raise his prices more then 20% for the next year. This guy has been in business for 52 years.
> 
> His numbers and reasons do not line up to me.


If you do not want to answer the questions thats fine. I really would like to know what you mean with reserves. I would like to understand.


----------



## Whiffyspark

Think neigies operation is larger than anyone on here can grasp. 

No one on here or lawn site understands volume work. Everyone says stay small charge high. Sorry but volume works 

Roughly 3000 driveways is roughly 600,000.
Thats more than most people on here are going to make pushing snow their whole life


----------



## SnoFarmer

We must be the most amoral company because we do not refund money if services are not utilized.

Hasn't happened yet.
(services not being utilized.)
It's snows every year in my neck of the woods.



No, a lot of us are well aware of neigies operation.
He has me wanting to try a tractor with a blower.
,


.


----------



## Whiffyspark

SnoFarmer;1724893 said:


> We must be the most amoral company because we do not refund money if services are not utilized.
> 
> Hasn't happened yet.
> (services not being utilized.)
> It's snows every year in my neck of the woods.
> 
> No, a lot of us are well aware of neigies operation.
> He has me wanting to try a tractor with a blower.
> ,
> 
> .


But everyone here arguing with him? And refunding money? Thats comical.

Having seasonal contracts is the best thing you'll ever so for your cash flow


----------



## SnoFarmer

:waving:



Whiffyspark;1724902 said:


> But everyone here arguing with him? And refunding money? Thats comical.
> 
> Having seasonal contracts is the best thing you'll ever so for your cash flow


----------



## forkicks

Wow just read this again since I posted last. I just got a headache. It reminds me of some of the meetings that we use to have where the subject went all over the place and was kind of like a LA road map. I think that the bottom line is what ever works for you at the end of the day and you bring home money in your pocket than you are a winner. Because you really can not compare what someone should or should not charge to be profitable. The guy with the $80,000 tractor definitely needs to make more to get a return on his investment vs the guy that has a $5,000 set up. ok maybe he is a little slower but his profit margin is greater. Hey if you have big commercial accounts that can justify a couple of hundred thousand in equipment than more power to you. But at the end of the day subtract the cost of that equipment , maintenance, payroll, Insurance than how much ahead are you really than the guy just doing some local driveways? Yes I do know that there is big profits in very large accounts but the equipment and man power needed to maintain those accounts is big also. In today's economy trying to get big numbers to justify all that new equipment just seems extremely hard. But if at the end of the day you make money than in the words of the great one you are a WINNER:bluebounc


----------



## Neige

Whiffyspark;1724885 said:


> Think neigies operation is larger than anyone on here can grasp.
> 
> No one on here or lawn site understands volume work. Everyone says stay small charge high. Sorry but volume works
> 
> Roughly 3000 driveways is roughly 600,000.
> Thats more than most people on here are going to make pushing snow their whole life


No our pricing is not that low, we are around 300 seasonal. I am no where near original for my market. There is a SIMA member who's market is less then 10 miles away from me who currently has over 8000 resi accounts. If time permits over the next weeks I will take pictures of other contractors that are doing what I am doing.


----------



## Whiffyspark

Neige;1724985 said:


> No our pricing is not that low, we are around 300 seasonal. I am no where near original for my market. There is a SIMA member who's market is less then 10 miles away from me who currently has over 8000 resi accounts. If time permits over the next weeks I will take pictures of other contractors that are doing what I am doing.


I know, was just pointing it out. Are you able to drive tractors to all your driveways?

I assume you have your tractors staged in large developments. We don't have that kind of population or get enough snow here to warrant it.

We've been out once this year. And that was for a lousy two inch snow


----------



## Neige

Whiffyspark;1724993 said:


> I know, was just pointing it out. Are you able to drive tractors to all your driveways?
> 
> Yes all our work including commercial is all within 4 sq. miles.
> 
> I assume you have your tractors staged in large developments. We don't have that kind of population or get enough snow here to warrant it.
> 
> Most leave from our shop, as can be seen in this video.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We've been out once this year. And that was for a lousy two inch snow


We have been out twice in November and 9 times in December, for40 inches of snow.


----------



## 32vld

Neige;1724876 said:


> If you do not want to answer the questions thats fine. I really would like to know what you mean with reserves. I would like to understand.


 52 years of seasonal building up reserves.

What do you mean by reserves? Do you mean profit? Is that not the idea?

*Profit.*

Admitting that big years they make less. Justifying for him to do seasonal billing.

Big years has nothing to do with seasonal billing. Seasonal contracts are a mutually benificial to both parties.

*If big years has nothing to do with seasonal prices then there is no reason for seasonal prices. Because if the big snowfall does not effect billing as you stated.*

He then has a year with double the snow fall though still makes a small profit.

Is that not a good thing?

*Profit is why we are all here.*

So if seasonal pricing is working and his pricing is where it should be why the need to increase prices the next year 20%?

There is a big difference in where prices should be and what the market is willing to pay. There is no one on plowsite including you who thinks I am charging enough. This became an oppertunity to increase our prices without any push back from clients. We ended up signing everyone up and adding 8% more clients the year of the price increase.

His remark that the 20% price increase over 5 years made up for the small profit that bad year.

Solid business plan I would think.

If seasonal pricing is working and providing surplus why is it necessary to raise prices after one bad year by 20%?

Here again with the surplus. Are you saying profit above profit? I do not understand.

*Average snowfall season your cost is $50 you Gross $100, net $50. Below average your costs drop to $30 you Gross $100, net $70. Above average year your costs $70, Gross $100, net $30.

Average net for 3 years is $75. $5 more then you want to make for an average year.

You are in business many years. You have made extra profit in the below average years. That is your reserve to get through the years of above average snow when your profit goes down.

This is half the reason that people on plowsite cite for doing seasonal prices. The other half is that the customer can budget his payments.

So if your pricing has been working out then you should of had the money/profit/reserve from past years and not need to raise your prices 20% after an above average year. Then you state how after 5 years with the new price that made up for the money you did not make that bad year.

The reason to have seasonal pricing is to make the enough profit during the low and average snow fall years so a business can get through the heavy snow fall years. So there should not be a need to increase prices 20% after a heavy snow fall years because the desired profit was not there for that one year. Though that extra profit was already made in past years.

What could cause the need for prices to go up that much? Could the cost of fuel going from $2 to $4 a gallon make it necessary for a 20% increase in prices?

You tied in your 20% price increase because your profit dropped during a heavy snow fall year. When seasonal pricing is suppose to protect you.

If you can not cite why your costs went up that high. Then seasonal pricing is not protecting the contractor.

False assumptions can be to easily made, Though by the numbers that you used I can only conclude that seasonal pricing does not work. *

They way he wrote his price increase implies that he pays lip service to seasonal pricing when in reality he wants a big profit in low snow fall and high snow falls as well.

Once again I am not sure what you are implying. A solid business plan would have me in a position that I never lose money. Seasonal contracts is how we have made that work. I should be making profits every single year.

*Never said you should not make profits every year.*

Between my landscaping and snow I can not see my costs going up 20% in one year.

You seem to have a problem with my 20% increase. But you have mentioned that this is your 6th year and you have gone from $40.00 to charging $100.00 now. You were making a profit at $40, just decided you wanted to make more. I am very happy for you that you are able to get $100. Oh by the way how many clients are paying you $100.00?

*You take a post totally out of context. Some contractors in upstate New York are happy to get seasonal residential rates of $300 a year. Where I live people pay $300 a push for a residential driveway 375' long.

I was making money. Though not knowing the local pricing as I pointed that out. I was leaving money on the table. I shared with that person possible ways to learn how to get a feel for the market and how to get higher rates. Because he could not see how high some people on her are charging.

It is one thing to low ball from inexperience. Another thing to do it deliberately.*

I can see a greenhorn not knowing how to price starting out he can of priced jobs so low that he needs to raise his prices more then 20% for the next year. This guy has been in business for 52 years.

His numbers and reasons do not line up to me.

*Your number and reasons still do not line up to me. I understand the how seasonal works. What you have written only shows me that you want seasonal when it works in your favor.*

*Also when you add your lines within my text when you quote me I makes it hard to see your lines from the third persons text which could of been deleted to make the length of this post more manageable.*


----------



## Mike_PS

ok, before this gets way off course from the OP's intention, etc. I think this was discussed in great depth and believe the OP, and others, can take what they need/is necessary from the entire discussion and I can close this down for now

thanks all :waving:


----------



## Mike_PS

ok, on second thought, I will leave this open, for now, as long as the discussion remains on point and decent

thanks again


----------



## jrs.landscaping

His increase comes out to 4% per year. No one else increases rates at 4% per year?


----------



## Wplc

What I got from reading this whole thread is to go 70% seasonal, and 30% per push or hourly. That way I am safe no matter what happens.


----------



## grandview

I raise my seasonal prices at least 5% a yr no matter what.Hope I get this right, You need to raise your prices every year for the backend of this. If you want to pay yourself every year and get a pay raise ,that money needs to come form somewhere. If you left your rates alone and kept your pay the same,you'll be losing money.


----------



## BUFF

Michael J. Donovan;1725048 said:


> ok, on second thought, I will leave this open, for now, as long as the discussion remains on point and decent
> 
> thanks again


Thanks MJD, even though we all have our own business models and work in different markets there's a wealth on knowledge to be tapped into to better our own business's.


----------



## Dogplow Dodge

Neige;1724985 said:


> No our pricing is not that low, we are around 300 seasonal. I am no where near original for my market. There is a SIMA member who's market is less then 10 miles away from me who currently has over 8000 resi accounts. If time permits over the next weeks I will take pictures of other contractors that are doing what I am doing.


8000 residentials, 3200 residentials.... 

OMG ! For a small potato like me, the thought of this is mind boggling. but COOL !

Awesome read Thumbs Up.. and please continue, as I feel honored to be in your presence..... (being completely serious)


----------



## Neige

Thanks MJ, I feel its been decent conversations.
32VLD I appreciate your response, and explaining your thoughts.
You are absolutely right there was no need for a 20% increase. I only did it because the timing was right, and everyone expected it to happen.
Our company has been doing 100% seasonal for over 50 years, that's all we have ever done. You are right again that we do seasonal because it works in our favour. To be fair it works for both parties. We really do seasonal for the low snow years.
Lastly I purposely color my responses in green so its easier to see what I am saying. I do my best for it not to be confusing. Thumbs Up


----------



## Whiffyspark

Having that many driveways, I assume you always profit every year. I did the math at roughly $5 per drive for 50 events. 

I'm just trying to figure out how I can apply this to my area. We do it for landscaping


----------



## grandview

Whiffyspark;1725182 said:


> Having that many driveways, I assume you always profit every year. I did the math at roughly $5 per drive for 50 events.
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out how I can apply this to my area. We do it for landscaping


Offer it? :salute:


----------



## Whiffyspark

grandview;1725209 said:


> Offer it? :salute:


We do. Just want to get into reactors. We have a few large neighborhoods


----------



## grandview

To me,here is the comparison to seasonal and per push. Seasonal you have a full pot of money and every time it snows you take a little out. per push starts with an empty pot and ever time it snows money goes into it. For both,at the end of the season you both hope there is money left in the pot.


----------



## goodnewsmaint

For the OP and guys using ag tractors with blowers, regarding improving efficiency.. 

Anyone consider a bobcat 3650 UTV with a blower. I believe the blower is about 60". Heated 2 seater cab and a 30mph top speed would be nice for transport. hydrostat drive with treadle pedal for back and forth. Throw a shovel and a single stage into the bed for sidewalks. Would eliminate the cost of another sidewalk crew vehicle. Heck you could probably make it street legal. Pro's and Con's VS. ag tractor?

Around here (dearborn area) avg lot size is 7k (un-improved) with aprox 16 homes on each side of the street per block. They are built practically on top of each other. Drives are 10'x100' give or take, city walks 4'x50' and walks to front entrance maybe 3x25. Homeowners are required to shovel city walks and they expect us to also shovel their entrances. I have been asking around lately. Prices per push for drive and the walks/entrances ranging from $10-40. With the majority around the $20-25 mark. Easy to tell the beer money makers apart from the tax paying professional businessmen.


----------



## RonWin

$10-$20 a driveway? That's absurd. I would ramp up lawn accounts and vaca. All winter.


----------



## goodnewsmaint

Our market is saturated with new "business's" every year. Pricing for any services around here are rock bottom because of it. I give out quotes and most tell me to take a hike cause they have someone else that quoted half or less. Ive had callbacks after their guy was a no show usually after heavy storms, and/or poor quality. 

I think the high volume seasonal contract business model would work well in my location though.


----------



## mnlefty

goodnewsmaint;1725239 said:


> For the OP and guys using ag tractors with blowers, regarding improving efficiency..
> 
> Anyone consider a bobcat 3650 UTV with a blower. I believe the blower is about 60". Heated 2 seater cab and a 30mph top speed would be nice for transport. hydrostat drive with treadle pedal for back and forth. Throw a shovel and a single stage into the bed for sidewalks. Would eliminate the cost of another sidewalk crew vehicle. Heck you could probably make it street legal. Pro's and Con's VS. ag tractor?
> .


Been there done that with a Toolcat and blower... Doesn't have the 30mph road speed but bigger heftier blower compensates vs. road speed. IMO it can rival tractor revenue and profit where tractor service doesn't exist and your competition is a plow truck, but in a market where tractor services like Neige are established it can't keep up. That size blower slows down too much in heavier/deeper snow vs tractor/pto blower. Also having a shoveler in the vehicle with you will ultimately slow you down. In most/all areas you'll never be able to charge enough to realize $100,150,200 an hour shoveling the way you can with the blower, so every minute the blower sits waiting on shoveling you're losing money.


----------



## The Lawnman

Wplc;1719185 said:


> That wouldn't work here.


I have learned over the years that if you don't place a "high" value on your services, then don't be surprised when your customers don't either. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing. I charge a rate for our services that makes sense for my operation in order to be profitable.

Sure you are going to have a lot of folks turning you down because they say "...others will do if cheaper", but this is always going to be the case. I have no problem walking away from potential customers that are looking for the 'cheapest' bid.

My "potential" customer's are looking for value, consistency, reliability, honesty, someone who is easy to do business with, a person that answers the phone when they call, etc. etc. These customers aren't as concerned about pricing, and will generally stick with you for years. Granted, they are far and few between, but they are out there.

This strategy will make you more money with less ware and tare on you and your equipment. Develop the attitude that you are growing a business, not going into business. It takes time to develop and implement this strategy, but it can be done and it does work regardless of geography. Cheers!


----------



## SLM

Wplc;1719169 said:


> Not sure what happened to my post above.
> 
> What I meant is if I have like 10 on a street, I do one pass and pull everything out. Than I go to the next drive. When this is done, I pile all at the same time. This is faster than piling snow right after you pull it out. I will take a video the next snowfall if I have time.
> 
> -	Last year we had 15 snow events. This year it will be closer to 35.
> 
> -	Insurance on two trucks/workers comp: $4000
> Licensing: $300
> Gas: $50 per night each ($100 total)x25=2500
> Labor: 6 hrs @ 18 an hour=108x25=$2700x2=5400. Lets just say its 8k.
> Repairs: 5k
> =17000
> 400 drives x 200 = 80,000
> Subtract 17000
> =63k
> 
> -	Obviously there are a few expenses I am missing, some of the expenses would be higher and if we had a bad winter the profit would be lower, but that is my thinking. If we have a winter where it barely snows, which has happened, I could make 70k for 50 hours of work, or 1400 per hour.


You get a chance to make a video if the one minute per drive
Plow time?


----------



## Tom c.

*plow rates*



The Lawnman;1731294 said:


> I have learned over the years that if you don't place a "high" value on your services, then don't be surprised when your customers don't either. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing. I charge a rate for our services that makes sense for my operation in order to be profitable.
> 
> Sure you are going to have a lot of folks turning you down because they say "...others will do if cheaper", but this is always going to be the case. I have no problem walking away from potential customers that are looking for the 'cheapest' bid.
> 
> My "potential" customer's are looking for value, consistency, reliability, honesty, someone who is easy to do business with, a person that answers the phone when they call, etc. etc. These customers aren't as concerned about pricing, and will generally stick with you for years. Granted, they are far and few between, but they are out there.
> 
> This strategy will make you more money with less ware and tare on you and your equipment. Develop the attitude that you are growing a business, not going into business. It takes time to develop and implement this strategy, but it can be done and it does work regardless of geography. Cheers!


This is 100% right. In my area we have 4 illegals in a car with shovels. Yesterday had a person ask how much on a estate driveway, {$700,000}home. I had just done 4 drives @ 100 each, and they thank you. So I tell the guy 100.00 he counters At 50.00 I say goodby. Just as I start to walk away a Lexus with 4 guys with shovels get out and start bartering with the guy. He asks for my business card and I tell him no I'm not interested. I've had people like this before and just don't want to deal with them. If you give quality service and are dependable you will get the right clientele. If you the local guy driving a crappy beat up truck working for beer money.....Well you know how it goes!!! Just my .02!!


----------



## Neige

The Lawnman;1731294 said:


> I have learned over the years that if you don't place a "high" value on your services, then don't be surprised when your customers don't either. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing. I charge a rate for our services that makes sense for my operation in order to be profitable.
> 
> Sure you are going to have a lot of folks turning you down because they say "...others will do if cheaper", but this is always going to be the case. I have no problem walking away from potential customers that are looking for the 'cheapest' bid.
> 
> My "potential" customer's are looking for value, consistency, reliability, honesty, someone who is easy to do business with, a person that answers the phone when they call, etc. etc. These customers aren't as concerned about pricing, and will generally stick with you for years. Granted, they are far and few between, but they are out there.
> 
> This strategy will make you more money with less ware and tare on you and your equipment. Develop the attitude that you are growing a business, not going into business. It takes time to develop and implement this strategy, but it can be done and it does work regardless of geography. Cheers!


Our company is very proud of the service we offer. We offer all of the above, value, consistency, reliability and honesty. We offer the same quality of service to our residential as we do to our commercial clients. They are all on a 2 inch trigger, and we guarantee service before 7 am if the trigger is met by 4 am. We will continue to service the clients throughout the event, and generally remove the muni windrows within 20 minuets of them being pushed into the drives. We stake all our clients, and repair all damage caused in a timely manner. We know many of our clients by name, and have had them for many years. Like I said before we are expensive for our market, there is no way I could hold unto them all by raising my price. What we have done is taken our 4 hour window of opportunity and filled it with the most customers we can. There is barely any lost time driving from site to site. Since we have done this we can make $250/hr with our tractors.
Would I like to make $300 absolutely, but my market will not bear it.


----------



## grandview

Neige;1748549 said:


> Our company is very proud of the service we offer. We offer all of the above, value, consistency, reliability and honesty. We offer the same quality of service to our residential as we do to our commercial clients. They are all on a 2 inch trigger, and we guarantee service before 7 am if the trigger is met by 4 am. We will continue to service the clients throughout the event, and generally remove the muni windrows within 20 minuets of them being pushed into the drives. We stake all our clients, and repair all damage caused in a timely manner. We know many of our clients by name, and have had them for many years. Like I said before we are expensive for our market, there is no way I could hold unto them all by raising my price. What we have done is taken our 4 hour window of opportunity and filled it with the most customers we can. There is barely any lost time driving from site to site. Since we have done this we can make $250/hr with our tractors.
> Would I like to make $300 absolutely, but my market will not bear it.


No matter what happens you need to follow through with the deal,once someone starts bad mouthing you its downhill from there.


----------



## Doin_It

Wow, just read through this all.....long. Here's what I got, that applies to me. *We're all in different markets*. I'm out west, a friend came for 2 weeks visit in Dec. from Grand Rapids of all place's, same place as OP.

He ran a plow truck for 1 biug event for me and kicked that driver to sidewalk crew. I had to get after him cause here we're fussy, no ridges, long pushes to end of lots so that lot doesn't have a bunch of plies etc., clean clean clean. He couldn't believe our neatness or price's compared to GR. We get more, but sidewalk guys start at $16/ and operators at $18/, so we pay more in wages...all relative isn't it. My truck subs are at $85.oo/

Our commercials are a set price for 2 pushes, then so much a push after. Our condos are all fixed price, all inclusive, walks, drives, streets, salt, everything. Love it, nothing but cash in the pocket. Every month I get to send out the bills and see the money come in.

Since I've been doing this 10 years and hope to keep doing it for a few more it all averages out, and that's the key you have to work with. 2 or 3 years ago I billed 1 lot at $8000 a month and plowed 4 times, salted 12 times, man was I a HAPPY CAMPER, this year I if it keeps up I MIGHT loose 2 to 3 G on that lot, we'll see. Do you think if I loose money this year I'm going run out and dump them...no way. Averages, cause I'm here for the long haul.

I don't have huge history data, but I have Internet...it's amazing the data that's available to me, you don't even need to keep your own snowfall history if you don't want to figure historical averages.

I don't think doing drives with tractor blowers would work in any of my condo's, but from my GR buddy, and this discussion, we'll be getting our first Ebling to try on drives next winter, cause my goal is always more production and more work, so probably lower prices to get more work and make more of that dirty word. PROFIT

When I start doing the math, like someone said 48 drives in 1 hour, shoot I'm bidding more condos at lower pricing for sure now.

Keep the faith...............


----------



## yardguy28

you hit the nail on the head. we ARE all in different markets. our business goals ARE all different. what we use to service properties ARE different. 

that's why I've never paid attention to the market from day one. I ignore my competitors. my focus is on ME. I charge what I need to make the kind of living I wanna have.


----------



## Brian Young

In a nut shell, the plowing industry is becoming the Wal-Mart way. In (most) cases any more the only way to make any "real" money is in volume. We're our own worst enemy most of the time. Our area averages 88" of snow, this year we're pushing 120" and I remember seeing a cheap photo copied paper saying seasonal rates as low as 150.00  I hope he realizes he's been plowing for free since about December :laughing: Honestly, I'm going to give it one more season, I should just put a turn style door at my shop with the amount of dead beats we've had and the prices that seem to be getting lower and lower but we're spending more and more I'm just about done with all this fun. My goal for 2016 season is to be fertilizing so much during the summer that I can just keep the accounts I want for plowing (like 4,lol)


----------



## yardguy28

huge reason i don't do season rates. you loose your butt in winters like these.


----------



## grandview

yardguy28;1772571 said:


> huge reason i don't do season rates. you loose your butt in winters like these.


You do?


----------



## yardguy28

well in my opinion you do. 

when there's lots of snow you end up coming more than the seasonal rate pays you and when there isn't a lot of snow you make out like a bandit. 

that's why I stick with per push for residentials and hourly for commercials. all clients pay for only work performed. a win/win for both of us.


----------



## GARRETTWOOD

The Lawnman;1731294 said:


> I have learned over the years that if you don't place a "high" value on your services, then don't be surprised when your customers don't either. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing. I charge a rate for our services that makes sense for my operation in order to be profitable.
> 
> Sure you are going to have a lot of folks turning you down because they say "...others will do if cheaper", but this is always going to be the case. I have no problem walking away from potential customers that are looking for the 'cheapest' bid.
> 
> My "potential" customer's are looking for value, consistency, reliability, honesty, someone who is easy to do business with, a person that answers the phone when they call, etc. etc. These customers aren't as concerned about pricing, and will generally stick with you for years. Granted, they are far and few between, but they are out there.
> 
> This strategy will make you more money with less ware and tare on you and your equipment. Develop the attitude that you are growing a business, not going into business. It takes time to develop and implement this strategy, but it can be done and it does work regardless of geography. Cheers!


Well said I totally agree, its not worth beating up your equipment or running your crew around the clock if you can't put a bottom line on your work.


----------



## yardatwork

My base rate is $35...1"-6", 1.5X for snow that's over 6"-12", and 2X for snow over 12". Not worth my time to drive to your driveway, do the work, pay an employee, etc. for less. I can do less work and still make the same as those people with a boat load of $10 driveways! Every year I have to replace brake lines, power steering lines, etc. due to the corrosive salt. I've already blown a hydraulic line on my plow and have had to weld two light mount pins that broke off. Plowing is so hard on equipment and $10 just doesn't cut it for me and it shouldn't for you either.


----------



## yardguy28

yardatwork;1773300 said:


> My base rate is $35...1"-6", 1.5X for snow that's over 6"-12", and 2X for snow over 12". Not worth my time to drive to your driveway, do the work, pay an employee, etc. for less. I can do less work and still make the same as those people with a boat load of $10 driveways! Every year I have to replace brake lines, power steering lines, etc. due to the corrosive salt. I've already blown a hydraulic line on my plow and have had to weld two light mount pins that broke off. Plowing is so hard on equipment and $10 just doesn't cut it for me and it shouldn't for you either.


no $10 a driveway doesn't cut it. but i'm not replacing much of anything from year to year. and i have yet for a anything to break on my plow.

now granted i've only been actually plowing with a truck and plow for 3 years but in those 3 years the salt hasn't caused me to replace brake lines, power steering lines, etc. every year seems extremely excessive.

i charge per push and that price doesn't change. only the number of visits i make. i make more visits the more snow we have 2-5 inches is one visit, 6-10 is two visits and anything larger depends on how much we are getting. basically in larger amounts i'm coming every 3-4 inches until its done.


----------



## Neige

yardguy28;1773026 said:


> well in my opinion you do.
> 
> when there's lots of snow you end up coming more than the seasonal rate pays you and when there isn't a lot of snow you make out like a bandit.
> 
> that's why I stick with per push for residentials and hourly for commercials. all clients pay for only work performed. a win/win for both of us.


How is it you win in a low or no snow year? It costs me money to set up and be ready for the first snow.



yardatwork;1773300 said:


> My base rate is $35...1"-6", 1.5X for snow that's over 6"-12", and 2X for snow over 12". Not worth my time to drive to your driveway, do the work, pay an employee, etc. for less. I can do less work and still make the same as those people with a boat load of $10 driveways! Every year I have to replace brake lines, power steering lines, etc. due to the corrosive salt. I've already blown a hydraulic line on my plow and have had to weld two light mount pins that broke off. Plowing is so hard on equipment and $10 just doesn't cut it for me and it shouldn't for you either.


Snow blowing is not so hard on equipment, heck its lots of fun when you get those 12 + storms. I know I have said it lots of times now, but the way I am set up I would be a millionaire if I was getting $10.00 a push, and imagine $20 on a 12 inch storm or more wow bring it on. Oops got carried away, my market wont bare more then $300 for the season. So I guess I have to settle being halve a millionaire.


----------



## yardguy28

Neige;1775477 said:


> How is it you win in a low or no snow year? It costs me money to set up and be ready for the first snow.


first off it cost me ALMOST nothing to set up for the 1st snow. my snow plow is paid for and takes 2 min to hook to the truck and minor expenses if the snow blowers need new belts, paddles and or scrapper bars.

secondly if your seasonal rate is based off say 20 visits a season and you only visit 5 or not at all you win by all that extra money the client paid you.

on the flip side if you visit more than the 20 visits you clearly lost.

that's why I stick with per push.


----------



## hansenslawncare

Great thread here gentleman...merely subscribing.

thank you.


----------



## excav8ter

SLM;1748244 said:


> You get a chance to make a video if the one minute per drive
> Plow time?


I would like to see that too! After using a 14' Ebling with my Boss V-XT on my F350 for 2 years, I now have a tractor/blower. The tractor is faster when your drives are grouped tightly.


----------



## grandview

yardguy, you really can't compair your business to Paul's you need to compare yourself to another guy with equal amount of properties as you


----------



## snoworks1

yardguy28;1775546 said:


> first off it cost me ALMOST nothing to set up for the 1st snow. my snow plow is paid for and takes 2 min to hook to the truck and minor expenses if the snow blowers need new belts, paddles and or scrapper bars.
> 
> Yardguy,
> 
> So you don't have any of the following: commercial auto insurance, business insurance, workmens comp(for yourself), truck up-keep, business phone, cell phone, advertising expenses, etc!
> 
> Even when I had one truck working I had all the of the above expenses, every year.
> 
> CGB


----------



## yardguy28

grandview;1776394 said:


> yardguy, you really can't compair your business to Paul's you need to compare yourself to another guy with equal amount of properties as you


you make a great point but I was just replying to a post in general.



snoworks1;1776539 said:


> Yardguy,
> 
> So you don't have any of the following: commercial auto insurance, business insurance, workmens comp(for yourself), truck up-keep, business phone, cell phone, advertising expenses, etc!
> 
> Even when I had one truck working I had all the of the above expenses, every year.
> 
> CGB


except for workers comp, business phone and advertising I have all that stuff. but I would have all that stuff whether I did snow removal or not.

I'm a lawn maintenance business an except for owning snow blowers and a plow have nothing special or extra for snow removal. it's all covered with my lawn maintenance business.


----------



## grandview

yardguy28;1776873 said:


> you make a great point but I was just replying to a post in general.
> 
> except for workers comp, business phone and advertising I have all that stuff. but I would have all that stuff whether I did snow removal or not.
> 
> I'm a lawn maintenance business an except for owning snow blowers and a plow have nothing special or extra for snow removal. it's all covered with my lawn maintenance business.


Yes and no. If your a 2 season business,then each season needs to carry themselves,they should not support each other.


----------



## 32vld

grandview;1777005 said:


> Yes and no. If your a 2 season business,then each season needs to carry themselves,they should not support each other.


More no then yes. It does not take much to get two snow blowers and a plow ready for the season. Both in time and money.

A Landscaper is not going to buy a second truck just to plow with. His snow removal is not going to have to support that truck.

The only extra thing he has is the insurance rider for doing snow removal.

The mowing and the plowing will always support each other. The income from mowing is not going to sit in the bank all winter. The money that was made last winter doing snow will not sit in the bank all summer to start up the snow business next winter.

Profits are always taken and dispersed. Every operation supports the business together.


----------



## grandview

32vld;1777141 said:


> More no then yes. It does not take much to get two snow blowers and a plow ready for the season. Both in time and money.
> 
> A Landscaper is not going to buy a second truck just to plow with. His snow removal is not going to have to support that truck.
> 
> The only extra thing he has is the insurance rider for doing snow removal.
> 
> The mowing and the plowing will always support each other. The income from mowing is not going to sit in the bank all winter. The money that was made last winter doing snow will not sit in the bank all summer to start up the snow business next winter.
> 
> Profits are always taken and dispersed. Every operation supports the business together.


I mean,if you have insurance and summer and winter are 6 months each you need to have each season pay for it,not pay a full yr from landscaping then say you have no other expenses,as with your phone and and any other bills you pay yr round.Same for your pay to yourself you need to be supported by each season.if they can't then maybe look at your business plan to see if you should get out of one of them.


----------



## jrs.landscaping

32vld;1777141 said:


> More no then yes. It does not take much to get two snow blowers and a plow ready for the season. Both in time and money.
> 
> A Landscaper is not going to buy a second truck just to plow with. His snow removal is not going to have to support that truck.
> 
> The only extra thing he has is the insurance rider for doing snow removal.
> 
> The mowing and the plowing will always support each other. The income from mowing is not going to sit in the bank all winter. The money that was made last winter doing snow will not sit in the bank all summer to start up the snow business next winter.
> 
> Profits are always taken and dispersed. Every operation supports the business together.


This is great for solo.......

When you start purchasing snow only equipment ie spreaders, pushers, loaders etc the game changes a little


----------



## yardguy28

grandview;1777005 said:


> Yes and no. If your a 2 season business,then each season needs to carry themselves,they should not support each other.


not in my case.

my lawn business supports me all 12 months of the year. I could take the 3-4 months of winter off and go to FL.

I don't do snow removal because I NEED the money. I do it because I like snow removal and to help retain clients that want one person to do it all. but financially I don't need to do it at all.

so my expenses are exactly the same whether I do snow removal or not. I have nothing extra invested in snow removal except a few snow blowers and a plow.


----------



## jrs.landscaping

yardguy28;1777184 said:


> so my expenses are exactly the same whether I do snow removal or not. I have nothing extra invested in snow removal except a few snow blowers and a plow.


So are your expenses the same or do you have added investments?

Last I checked plows/blowers etc have a life expectancy and will need to be replaced.


----------



## Antlerart06

yardguy28;1777184 said:


> not in my case.
> 
> my lawn business supports me all 12 months of the year. I could take the 3-4 months of winter off and go to FL.
> 
> I don't do snow removal because I NEED the money. I do it because I like snow removal and to help retain clients that want one person to do it all. but financially I don't need to do it at all.
> 
> so my expenses are exactly the same whether I do snow removal or not. I have nothing extra invested in snow removal except a few snow blowers and a plow.


Im in the same boat. I have yearly contacts, So I have to do the snow to get the big money in the summer time. 
I do things different. My winter time profit pays for winter time equipment and supplies and summer time pays for summer time stuff
My summer time profit does pay the whole year WC and other insurances/taxes


----------



## yardguy28

jrs.landscaping;1777195 said:


> So are your expenses the same or do you have added investments?
> 
> Last I checked plows/blowers etc have a life expectancy and will need to be replaced.


i mean the same as in i don't have a huge amount if any (on some years) in added costs to offer snow removal to my clients.

my insurance rates are the same whether i do snow removal or not. yes i have the cost of the blowers and plows when they need replaced but it's not some huge amount of money to set things up year to year like the post i was replying to that started this discussion.

currently my snow blowers and plow is paid for. so each year i have the cost of fuel for the blowers, any parts needed to be replaced on the blowers and some hydro fuel for the plow. plus truck fuel. those are all minimal costs.


----------



## 94gt331

Antlerart06;1777196 said:


> Im in the same boat. I have yearly contacts, So I have to do the snow to get the big money in the summer time.
> I do things different. My winter time profit pays for winter time equipment and supplies and summer time pays for summer time stuff
> My summer time profit does pay the whole year WC and other insurances/taxes


My winter profits takes care of my previous summer loss'es, my summer profits take care of my winter loss's, lol


----------



## Antlerart06

94gt331;1777608 said:


> My winter profits takes care of my previous summer loss'es, my summer profits take care of my winter loss's, lol


Then you have a problem you need to look at Sorry


----------



## 32vld

yardguy28;1777228 said:


> i mean the same as in i don't have a huge amount if any (on some years) in added costs to offer snow removal to my clients.
> 
> my insurance rates are the same whether i do snow removal or not. yes i have the cost of the blowers and plows when they need replaced but it's not some huge amount of money to set things up year to year like the post i was replying to that started this discussion.
> 
> currently my snow blowers and plow is paid for. so each year i have the cost of fuel for the blowers, any parts needed to be replaced on the blowers and some hydro fuel for the plow. plus truck fuel. those are all minimal costs.


You ignore the cost to set money aside for when the time comes to replace the old equipment with new. Also to add to truck replacement and or get a new truck then you have a backup plow rig and or expand your service.


----------



## yardguy28

I'm not sure you understand. 

I own and operate a solo lawn maintenance business. the gross profit from that alone covers ALL my costs for the entire 12 months in a year. I could very easily take the entire winter off and spend it in FL or the like. 

I do snow removal for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only. because I enjoy it and because I have mowing clients who prefer 1 person for all there property maintenance needs. 

the money for snow blowers comes from the lawn business as does the insurance payments, repairs for truck, plow, snow blowers, etc. 

in all honesty snow removal is just another service I offer under my lawn maintenance business. it's not ran, owned or operated as a seperate business.

not to mention this all started from a post from a user saying it costs him a lot of money to set up for the winter. and my comment was I have minimal costs to set up for the winter.


----------



## 32vld

yardguy28;1778267 said:


> I'm not sure you understand.
> 
> I own and operate a solo lawn maintenance business. the gross profit from that alone covers ALL my costs for the entire 12 months in a year. I could very easily take the entire winter off and spend it in FL or the like.
> 
> I do snow removal for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only. because I enjoy it and because I have mowing clients who prefer 1 person for all there property maintenance needs.
> 
> the money for snow blowers comes from the lawn business as does the insurance payments, repairs for truck, plow, snow blowers, etc.
> 
> in all honesty snow removal is just another service I offer under my lawn maintenance business. it's not ran, owned or operated as a seperate business.
> 
> not to mention this all started from a post from a user saying it costs him a lot of money to set up for the winter. and my comment was I have minimal costs to set up for the winter.


Nothing wrong to use lawn money to start up snow removal.

Wrong to use lawn money to keep snow removal going from year to year. Snow removal has to produce enough profit to run itself. In that it has to make enough money to not just pay the owner well but to buy new plows and what not as needed. Also to contribute to truck costs and subsidize buying a new truck sooner because of the extra wear and tear from running the truck more.

I agree that depending on the size of the business snow start up costs can be very low.


----------



## buildinon

32vld;1780015 said:


> Nothing wrong to use lawn money to start up snow removal.
> 
> Wrong to use lawn money to keep snow removal going from year to year. Snow removal has to produce enough profit to run itself. In that it has to make enough money to not just pay the owner well but to buy new plows and what not as needed. Also to contribute to truck costs and subsidize buying a new truck sooner because of the extra wear and tear from running the truck more.
> 
> I agree that depending on the size of the business snow start up costs can be very low.


Great thread here by everyone who has posted. I would say one of the better one's I have read on here in a long time :salute:
I can agree with what is said here, and what others have said about dividing up the money / costs. I own and operate a construction / remodeling company year round as well as plow snow during the winter. Yes the same trucks are used for both, but they are written off seperatley at tax time. All expenses for construction and snow are kept 100% seperate from each other. The only real expenses that run together with them are insurance, phone and day to day costs (but the accountants break it down and seperate it all out at the end of the year). I keep a spread sheet of every single cost for both sides (for repairs / tools / ect...) and the receipts, and give that to them...as well as keep that on file. You should never make one side of your operation pay for the other. The goal is to make it at least pay for itself, then reap the profits as your reward payup. If that is not the goal then someone enlighten me


----------

