# What do large companies do for long storm payroll?



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

If you generally have smaller storms "were in NJ", we only need one driver per truck or machine.

What do you do when you have literally 48-80hrs worth of work straight before you can "take a break" or consider your storm work finished?

The last monster storm we had, we had guys out 24+hrs and i had to tell most overnight that they needed to go home to sleep for at least 6hrs yet we needed drivers constantly for the entire storm even a day and a half after the storm stopped. 

Do you have "backup" crews? If you do, what do those employees get paid/compensated for since they rarely would ever be expected to work?

How many hours do you let your main plow/crew work during a storm before pulling them off and having your other guys take over?

I see it as being a negative for two reasons, although the guys currently working a lot of hours to start the storm are getting tired, theyre familiar with those sites they're handing. Bringing in backup drivers now fall out of the swing of things and possibly may not produce as good of results as your first string guys.

I know this is only something that probably comes up in medium to large companies, but we're to the point that we have several trucks, employees and machines operating in a big storm.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Ramairfreak98ss;962663 said:


> If you generally have smaller storms "were in NJ", we only need one driver per truck or machine.
> 
> What do you do when you have literally 48-80hrs worth of work straight before you can "take a break" or consider your storm work finished? *2" or 20" we still clear our routes in under 6 hrs. Who is waiting 48 hrs. for you to come back and clean up?*
> 
> ...


Any one else going to chime in?


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

What we have done on the longer storms is cycle drivers. Because typically on commercials on these longer storms the parking areas do not need to be kept open as they are usually closed. So we will have one or more driver covering the travel areas and fire lanes of several properties rather than having all the equipment running on each site through the entire storm. Then as soon as the storm breaks throw everything you have at it. We are in the same situation where we do not get these extended storms very often and having backup crews is not worth it.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

cda817;963151 said:


> What we have done on the longer storms is cycle drivers. Because typically on commercials on these longer storms the parking areas do not need to be kept open as they are usually closed. So we will have one or more driver covering the travel areas and fire lanes of several properties rather than having all the equipment running on each site through the entire storm. Then as soon as the storm breaks throw everything you have at it. We are in the same situation where we do not get these extended storms very often and having backup crews is not worth it.


We do this but we also have a few backup operators that are use to running our machinery but do not want to plow every storm. Some of our places are 24 hrs and we can't leave. We also never generally work longer then 12 hr shifts also. The odd time we will run18-20 hrs but never more then that.


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## plowking15 (Jan 16, 2010)

We have a camper trailer set up near our salt shed,that way we can catch some sleep if needed . Usually, we go home for 3-6 hours then back out. I work for a municipality ,so they have to keep up with the storm and we ,may respond to any emergency service calls to make sure driveway is clear. I'm one of the part timers,work winter only,the full timers work year round.I have heard of some companies setting up office trailers for their help to stay to sleep or wait for storm to start. We rarely have to call for backup,but do have some names.plowking


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## Lux Lawn (Jan 5, 2004)

*If it's a multi day snow, we try to get in one clearing before 7:00 a.m.(depends on when it starts snowing) Then a short break before we might do a mid day touch up or clean rows. Take a break and re-clear it again during the night. I try to have back up guys so the shifts never exceed 12 hrs. straight for those times the snow just won't stop.*

I try to do the same thing, for years we would plow 20+ straight hours, now its just not worth it. My customers will still get at least *Two* plows in a 24 hour period.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

i well point this out, some areas/situations are different then others, i have had this problem and it is hard ,when you only get one 20-30cm snowfall a year, to make sure you are covered. We have enough workers to easily do an average snow fall (5-10cm) here in a timely manner, and we keep 2-5 guys as back up, for sick/no shows/abnormal snowfall amount etc. circumstances. But sometimes you get a horrible/abnormal snowfall and it just puts you behind. It is easy for some of the guys equiped for heavy snowfalls to judge us guys that don't usually get the major snowfalls, BUT, what if some of you contractors that are used to a 30cm + snowfall a day, received a 200cm + snowfall over a couple days? could you honestly say you would be completely on top of it? I for one can tell you, i am equiped to handle average snowfalls for my area, better then most around my area, but sometimes we do get that snowfall that knocks everyone on their @ss, and then i judge my abilities of dealing with it, by how well i stack up against my competition, if all my lots are done before theirs then i must be doing alright. and for the skeptics that are going to critisize my post, if i kept the personnel and equipment to hand that 1 in a season horrible snowfall, i wouldn't have any customers willing to pay the prices i would have to charge. JMO


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

We plan like this- 0-1- most likely just a salt run or 2, maybe spot plowing 5 hrs, 1 truck per route. 1-4 inches-2-6 trucks depending on the route and actual snow, each truck 6-7 hrs each. 4-8 inches,5-7trucks 12-14 hours each, 8-12 inches 5-7 trucks 18-20 hours each. We won't let drivers go more than 18 hrs EVER. we've found over the years letting guys go home is touchy, they'll over sleep, not answer the phone ETC, we set up our conference room as a bunk room with a bunch pf aerobeds and fleece sleeping bags and rotate guys through for 4-6 hours of sleep.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

forestfireguy;963356 said:


> We plan like this- 0-1- most likely just a salt run or 2, maybe spot plowing 5 hrs, 1 truck per route. 1-4 inches-2-6 trucks depending on the route and actual snow, each truck 6-7 hrs each. 4-8 inches,5-7trucks 12-14 hours each, 8-12 inches 5-7 trucks 18-20 hours each. We won't let drivers go more than 18 hrs EVER. we've found over the years letting guys go home is touchy, they'll over sleep, not answer the phone ETC, we set up our conference room as a bunk room with a bunch pf aerobeds and fleece sleeping bags and rotate guys through for 4-6 hours of sleep.


Well thought out. We either go back to the garage "not heated and no office on site" or my house south of the garage. I wouldnt be opposed to our normal guys staying here to sleep even in my own house for 4-6hrs or whatever, at least now i realize its not looked at oddly to request they stay there.

Do you pay them anything while sleeping/on break?
Of course In the middle of a storm, them driving home/back in is risky in their cars and like you say, most times theyll over sleep or figure they already made descent $$$ for the 10-20hrs they worked, why go back in for another 10+.


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## digit (Sep 15, 2005)

I have backups people that are just glad for a chance to push snow and have regular jobs I pay them the same as my regular guys and send them a gift card for Christmas.
I have gotten motel rooms for my guys when I wanted them to help again in four hours or so .


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

buckwheat_la;963336 said:


> what if some of you contractors that are used to a 30cm + snowfall a day, received a 200cm + snowfall over a couple days? could you honestly say you would be completely on top of it?


Nobody would be able to keep up to a storm that size without any major hickups/hurdles. 
Anyone (public) attempting to go on with life in their usual way (going to the mall, movies etc) should be buried in a snow bank. Thats JMO.

No client could expect perfect site conditons in 2-3 hours after a storm either. It would definitely be a challenge. Cities would be shut down for a long time I think.

I could tell you it would be a very long and tiring 3 days of pushing with the storm, and month or so afterwards with removals and relocations...but very very profitable. Bring it on-all of my guys (including me) are well relaxed and itching to attack somethign like that. 
Could you imagine some of the drifts???


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

JohnnyRoyale;975571 said:


> Nobody would be able to keep up to a storm that size without any major hickups/hurdles.
> Anyone (public) attempting to go on with life in their usual way (going to the mall, movies etc) should be buried in a snow bank. Thats JMO.
> 
> No client could expect perfect site conditons in 2-3 hours after a storm either. It would definitely be a challenge. Cities would be shut down for a long time I think.
> ...


200 cm would be a dream storm considering our 10 year avg is 115cm in Toronto. I would have to buy all the guys snowmobiles to get to work.


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## cda817 (Nov 20, 2009)

If we had a 6.5' snow storm the state would be closed for days as would almost every business. Equipment would run out of fuel eventually unless you are fortunate to have your own storage tank. Depending on the rate of snow fall you may not even be able to keep up with trucks and have to clear even the smallest residential with a loader. It would make for a long work week!


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

what we do is take a look at our customers and talk to them to see if and when they are open when a large event happens. then we can adjust our routes to focus on properties that are open, and the ones that are closed get a break open to keep the main entrance open just to the building. that way if you can get open business' in good shape you can cut loose a few guys to get some sleep, and use your part timers or evening only guys to open up the business' that were no open. then once your normal guys get some rest they can come back to do your clean up, while your part timers go back to work.

this way the part timers feel like they are getting something done (they can brag about pushing 10") and your normal crew can provide the service you expect, with out beating them down.

if we can have our business' opened up and ready for business before the main roads are clean we feel like we did good. 

also think about on large lots moving the snow away from the buildings parking, but not clearing the whole lot at once. sometimes if the business has a 6 acre lot, but only has 10 employees, and limited customers we will clear 1/2 of it at once, then move our guys to other lots. then come back with pushers to clear the rest of the lot after the storm is done. but this is in extreme storms and only after being ok'ed buy the customer.


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## augerandblade (Jan 17, 2009)

Around heretymusic the bigger the snowfall the more understanding our clients are in realizing that it will be difficult to provide the same level of service as a 4 inch or 10cm snowfall. We experienced that during a 63 centimeter blizzard. And the ones that do expect to get out and are downright nasty we drop like a dirty shirt. As far as hours go its up to the employee. Some guys right now on the crew are lusting after snow and they will be good for hours if the mother of all storms comes. Being the bossdizzy:Glorified Field Manager for the Finance/&Banks) I plow with the length of the storm and if that means sleeping over the steering wheel of the tractor , for a quick nod and gettin back at er, so be it. 
Around here anyone thats been in the business since the Big Storm of 99 has either equipped themselves for the worst case scenario or took on enuf work that they can handle (I did both) should the storehouses of snow be released from the heavens.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

buckwheat_la;963336 said:


> i well point this out, some areas/situations are different then others, i have had this problem and it is hard ,when you only get one 20-30cm snowfall a year, to make sure you are covered. We have enough workers to easily do an average snow fall (5-10cm) here in a timely manner, and we keep 2-5 guys as back up, for sick/no shows/abnormal snowfall amount etc. circumstances. But sometimes you get a horrible/abnormal snowfall and it just puts you behind. It is easy for some of the guys equiped for heavy snowfalls to judge us guys that don't usually get the major snowfalls, BUT, what if some of you contractors that are used to a 30cm + snowfall a day, received a 200cm + snowfall over a couple days? could you honestly say you would be completely on top of it? I for one can tell you, i am equiped to handle average snowfalls for my area, better then most around my area, but sometimes we do get that snowfall that knocks everyone on their @ss, and then i judge my abilities of dealing with it, by how well i stack up against my competition, if all my lots are done before theirs then i must be doing alright. and for the skeptics that are going to critisize my post, if i kept the personnel and equipment to hand that 1 in a season horrible snowfall, i wouldn't have any customers willing to pay the prices i would have to charge. JMO


Thats just plan crazy talk. Small or big, it should make no difference. You either have the equipment to handle the snow or you dont. If every year you get a 30 cm storm then you should be ready to handle a 40cm storm. It is what separates the men from the boys.
To go from being able to handle 5-10 cm storms and difficulty to handle 30 +cm. Then say guys who could handle 30cm+ go to 200 is insane. No offense guys in Toronto, but not even the army could save you from that one. Even here in Quebec we would be toast.
It all has to do with your overall capacity to handle snow. We are equipped to handle a 30+ storm and still be at 80% capacity. In other words if 20% of my equipment fails, I will still get the job done in time. Now make it a 60cm storm, and my time parameters will be strained. Most of our equipment is set up to cycle through the routes in 4 hrs. So plowing with the storm in theory you could make 6 passes in a day. Now if your routes are set up in 8 hr cycles, that gives you 3 passes. So we each have a client across the street from each other and they are both the same size. We get a 30cm storm falling at 3cm an hr. Our first pass is at 3cm at roughly the same time. 4 hrs later I get to my client and there is another 12cm of snow. 4 hrs later we both come by again and I have another 12 cm of snow, but you have 24cm to do. Your second cycle is already going to take longer than 8 hrs. After 12 hrs we will have made 3 passes, my guys could take a 4 hr break, and then come back and finish up, just when you will be fininishing you second pass. So you see its not the the size of the company, its the capacity of snow you can handle in a specific time frame. The guy with the 8 hr cycle in theory should be making twice as much money. JMO


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Neige;979948 said:


> Thats just plan crazy talk. Small or big, it should make no difference. You either have the equipment to handle the snow or you dont. If every year you get a 30 cm storm then you should be ready to handle a 40cm storm. It is what separates the men from the boys.
> To go from being able to handle 5-10 cm storms and difficulty to handle 30 +cm. Then say guys who could handle 30cm+ go to 200 is insane. No offense guys in Toronto, but not even the army could save you from that one. Even here in Quebec we would be toast.
> It all has to do with your overall capacity to handle snow. We are equipped to handle a 30+ storm and still be at 80% capacity. In other words if 20% of my equipment fails, I will still get the job done in time. Now make it a 60cm storm, and my time parameters will be strained. Most of our equipment is set up to cycle through the routes in 4 hrs. So plowing with the storm in theory you could make 6 passes in a day. Now if your routes are set up in 8 hr cycles, that gives you 3 passes. So we each have a client across the street from each other and they are both the same size. We get a 30cm storm falling at 3cm an hr. Our first pass is at 3cm at roughly the same time. 4 hrs later I get to my client and there is another 12cm of snow. 4 hrs later we both come by again and I have another 12 cm of snow, but you have 24cm to do. Your second cycle is already going to take longer than 8 hrs. After 12 hrs we will have made 3 passes, my guys could take a 4 hr break, and then come back and finish up, just when you will be fininishing you second pass. So you see its not the the size of the company, its the capacity of snow you can handle in a specific time frame. The guy with the 8 hr cycle in theory should be making twice as much money. JMO


i respectfully disagree, to a point, i agree that you you should have a buffer of capacity for your snow removal. However, keep this in mind Neige, you have how many machines, and what budget to work with? using myself as a example, i have my loader, and two skidsteers, to handle snowfalls, now, we can do all of our work with just 2 of those 3 pieces of machinery, easily, however, if i get 4 times the snow over the same period, and i have all the machines going, assuming everything else is ok, guess what, i am not going to run as fast. Also keep this in mind, around here, with the amount of events we are used to, there is not way that a 4 hour circuit would pay for the equipment, we run on a 12 hour circuit, and a lot of guys here run on a 24 hour circuit. This may seem rediculous, BUT keep in mind that we expect 2-6 (2-4inches) plowable events as a average per month, and some times we get nothing. given what contracts i have, the money i would make off of them wouldn't pay for the machinery i have. then also keep in mind that we well get 1 DUMP (maybe) where we well see 12-24 inches, in a day or less, so a +36 inch event is incredibly hard for us as a community to deal with, all loaders and graders get rented by the city, you see many farmers in with their larger tractors, and every excavation company is out helping the city. I guess what i am saying Neige is every area has a average, and extreme amount they can handle, for us we can handle a average of 2-12 inches, no problem per day, double that, 12+ we are pushed to a limit (but usually handle it fine), 24+ (or a 80-110km wind) and i guarantee we well not be getting around to everyone in that day, mainly because at that amount our city is strained trying to keep the main roads open, and everyone is staying home unless they have heavy iron. to put this in a better perspective, i was in victoria a couple years ago when they received a snowfall that where i am from would have been a cake walk, the entire place shut down, EVERYTHING, that totally amazed me until someone pointed out, they don't have the equipment mobilized to even consider moving that much snow and it would be unrealistic to expect them to keep the equipment to do so.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Neige;979948 said:


> Thats just plan crazy talk. Small or big, it should make no difference. You either have the equipment to handle the snow or you dont. If every year you get a 30 cm storm then you should be ready to handle a 40cm storm. It is what separates the men from the boys.
> To go from being able to handle 5-10 cm storms and difficulty to handle 30 +cm. Then say guys who could handle 30cm+ go to 200 is insane. No offense guys in Toronto, but not even the army could save you from that one. Even here in Quebec we would be toast.
> It all has to do with your overall capacity to handle snow. We are equipped to handle a 30+ storm and still be at 80% capacity. In other words if 20% of my equipment fails, I will still get the job done in time. Now make it a 60cm storm, and my time parameters will be strained. Most of our equipment is set up to cycle through the routes in 4 hrs. So plowing with the storm in theory you could make 6 passes in a day. Now if your routes are set up in 8 hr cycles, that gives you 3 passes. So we each have a client across the street from each other and they are both the same size. We get a 30cm storm falling at 3cm an hr. Our first pass is at 3cm at roughly the same time. 4 hrs later I get to my client and there is another 12cm of snow. 4 hrs later we both come by again and I have another 12 cm of snow, but you have 24cm to do. Your second cycle is already going to take longer than 8 hrs. After 12 hrs we will have made 3 passes, my guys could take a 4 hr break, and then come back and finish up, just when you will be fininishing you second pass. So you see its not the the size of the company, its the capacity of snow you can handle in a specific time frame. The guy with the 8 hr cycle in theory should be making twice as much money. JMO


Very nice Paul.

Is it just me or has the snow plowing industry become another "I want it now" commodity? Kind of like pizza delivery.

A 12 or 24 hour cycle would be totally unnaceptable in our market. In fact you would be out of business before you even began.

You just had to throw the army comment in eh?? Kinda like a Ford vs GM thing. tymusic


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

JohnnyRoyale;980028 said:


> Very nice Paul.
> 
> Is it just me or has the snow plowing industry become another "I want it now" commodity? Kind of like pizza delivery.
> 
> ...


and how many events do you get to charge for in a season? what kind of money are we talking/event? because if you showed up twice in one day on a 5-10cm event here, and wanted to charge for it you wouldn't work in this town for long either, but that is just the different dynamics of our different regions.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

personally i would love to spend some time in other regions and see how it is done by different companies,


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## JoeCool (Oct 29, 2009)

buckwheat_la;980063 said:


> personally i would love to spend some time in other regions and see how it is done by different companies,


That is why I find this forum so addicting. I've been stuck in Manitoba for all of my 45 years. The only variables I was aware of was a windy storm vs a heavy snowfall. It affects the rural completely different than the city. Now following the Great Lakes region's tactics as well as the Midwest I find strategies and methods very different. Adapting to regions or borrowing strategies from other regions can make (or break) huge benefits when looking at it from a fresh perspective. Great thread Buckwheat.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

buckwheat_la;980011 said:


> i respectfully disagree, to a point, i agree that you you should have a buffer of capacity for your snow removal. However, keep this in mind Neige, you have how many machines, and what budget to work with?
> The amout of machines and the budget are proportional
> using myself as a example, i have my loader, and two skidsteers, to handle snowfalls, now, we can do all of our work with just 2 of those 3 pieces of machinery, easily, however, if i get 4 times the snow over the same period, and i have all the machines going, assuming everything else is ok, guess what, i am not going to run as fast. Also keep this in mind, around here, with the amount of events we are used to, there is not way that a 4 hour circuit would pay for the equipment, we run on a 12 hour circuit, and a lot of guys here run on a 24 hour circuit. This may seem rediculous,
> I cannot understand how anyone will wait more than 8hrs to get plowed. How many events do you get and how much snow in a season? BUT keep in mind that we expect 2-6 (2-4inches) plowable events as a average per month, and some times we get nothing. given what contracts i have, the money i would make off of them wouldn't pay for the machinery i have. then also keep in mind that we well get 1 DUMP (maybe) where we well see 12-24 inches, in a day or less, so a +36 inch event is incredibly hard for us as a community to deal with, all loaders and graders get rented by the city, you see many farmers in with their larger tractors, and every excavation company is out helping the city. I guess what i am saying Neige is every area has a average, and extreme amount they can handle, for us we can handle a average of 2-12 inches, no problem per day, double that, 12+ we are pushed to a limit (but usually handle it fine), 24+ (or a 80-110km wind) and i guarantee we well not be getting around to everyone in that day,
> ...


That last part is totally understandable, they really dont get much snow, and thats why its so expensive to get it done. I dont believe that is the case where you are, you do have winter with potential snow amounts.


buckwheat_la;980060 said:


> and how many events do you get to charge for in a season? what kind of money are we talking/event? because if you showed up twice in one day on a 5-10cm event here, and wanted to charge for it you wouldn't work in this town for long either, but that is just the different dynamics of our different regions.


There in lie our differences. I charge seasonal, and my clients expect me to come plow anytime the trigger is met. They also dont want to wait 12 hrs before I show up.
We have on average 18 snow events a year. Our contracts are Nov. 01 to April 15
8 events of 5cm.....5 events of 10cm.....2 events of 15 cm..... 1 event of 20cm....& 2events of 30+cm


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

buckwheat_la;980060 said:


> and how many events do you get to charge for in a season? what kind of money are we talking/event? because if you showed up twice in one day on a 5-10cm event here, and wanted to charge for it you wouldn't work in this town for long either, but that is just the different dynamics of our different regions.


Historically 15-20 pushes throughout the winter with 40-50 salt applications.

In our situation-for commercial, and corporate offices, we have a monthly set price for plowing and salting is extra, very few are all in (plwo and salt included). Many clients in our market expect an all in price-removal is usually extra..

Plow trigger is set at 2 inches (5cms).

We get alot of 1-3 cms-which get salt only.

Those accumulations closer to 5cms get scraped and salted-generally at the end of the event-depending on the temps, they get pre-salted.

Most heavier accumulations (in the 5-10 cm range) get pre salted, scraped and salted (depending on temps) during the day and salted again after cleanup in the evening.

The frequency goes up with the accumulations.

Not may commercial, industrials will pay per push in our market.

The school board we work for pays per push, salting is automatic after plowing, and when called otherwise... Trigger is 3 inches and you plow at the end of the storm. The money is excellant-but it has to snow for you to make any money.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

and all those differences in different regions make for a very different picture. around here we get 15-20 plowable events, and we usually plow anything over 3cm, no straight salt used here. we expect 1-2 events to be over 20 cm in a day/over the season, beyond that everything is 1-3cm. most people around here, take the attitude that "let it finish, then do it", we always push sanding, as much as possible, however, with chinooks it often isn't needed.

neige, the difference you see with the vancouver thing applies to anyone, sure we expect to have one event a year that has/ is over 20-30cm, even that doesn't happen many years, but budgets don't always allow for planning for the worst. a good example, last year my city blew its snow budget in one month, previous years snow budget was right on track (give or take a couple $10 000) all i am saying, is that the weather in different regions, affects what you expect/what is expected from a snow contractor


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

buckwheat_la;980629 said:


> and all those differences in different regions make for a very different picture. around here we get 15-20 plowable events, and we usually plow anything over 3cm, no straight salt used here. we expect 1-2 events to be over 20 cm in a day/over the season, beyond that everything is 1-3cm. most people around here, take the attitude that "let it finish, then do it", we always push sanding, as much as possible, however, with chinooks it often isn't needed.
> 
> neige, the difference you see with the vancouver thing applies to anyone, sure we expect to have one event a year that has/ is over 20-30cm, even that doesn't happen many years, but budgets don't always allow for planning for the worst. a good example, last year my city blew its snow budget in one month, previous years snow budget was right on track (give or take a couple $10 000) all i am saying, is that the weather in different regions, affects what you expect/what is expected from a snow contractor


Buckwheat I hear you, I am saying that Vancouver is not a fair comparison for you or me. They dont really get snow, I think you are more comparable to Toronto snow totals. With 15-20 plowable events selling snow contracts is viable. I also agree that different markets with simular snow totals are done differently. I am thinking with 12 -24 hr cycles to get plowed your market must not have enough plowers. In my market go over 6 hrs,and you will not have that client next year. It is the biggest mistake a new contractor makes, now go to a 3 hr cycle and you just became my biggest pain. I can t compete and it will show very quickly. Luckly most guys make the mistake of going 6 + hr cycles and their service suffers compared to mine. I am sure sure service looks so much better than the guy at 24 hrs. Easier for you to get his clients the following year I would guess.


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

It is funny how we all judge ourselves by the next guy. I do it every day, and it even affects how I do my routing. I will often do things that don't make sense on paper and might mean 10-20 mins of wasted driving because I have places right across the street from me that are serviced by good companies, and I want to look better. I love getting their first, and maybe no one notices, but maybe they do and next year or the following year we get a call.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Pristine PM ltd;980844 said:


> It is funny how we all judge ourselves by the next guy. I do it every day, and it even affects how I do my routing. I will often do things that don't make sense on paper and might mean 10-20 mins of wasted driving because I have places right across the street from me that are serviced by good companies, and I want to look better. I love getting their first, and maybe no one notices, but maybe they do and next year or the following year we get a call.


I am always amazed how so many look at it like a race, the call I hate the most is your competitor has been by already. WTF difference does it make if I come by at 4am or 5am when you dont have to leave before 7am My runs are super compact, but still arranged to handle where I have competion first.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Neige;980827 said:


> Buckwheat I hear you, I am saying that Vancouver is not a fair comparison for you or me. They dont really get snow, I think you are more comparable to Toronto snow totals. With 15-20 plowable events selling snow contracts is viable. I also agree that different markets with simular snow totals are done differently. I am thinking with 12 -24 hr cycles to get plowed your market must not have enough plowers. In my market go over 6 hrs,and you will not have that client next year. It is the biggest mistake a new contractor makes, now go to a 3 hr cycle and you just became my biggest pain. I can t compete and it will show very quickly. Luckly most guys make the mistake of going 6 + hr cycles and their service suffers compared to mine. I am sure sure service looks so much better than the guy at 24 hrs. Easier for you to get his clients the following year I would guess.


neige, what i am suggesting is that here, noone wants service every 6 hrs, it is very rarely asked for, and most companies won't pay for service twice a day. so because of that you take on more clients to cover a day of work. neige i have the upmost respect for how you guys deal with your snowfalls, unfortunately it just doesn't fly around here


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Neige;980876 said:


> I am always amazed how so many look at it like a race, the call I hate the most is your competitor has been by already. WTF difference does it make if I come by at 4am or 5am when you dont have to leave before 7am My runs are super compact, but still arranged to handle where I have competion first.


haha, yeah, it doesn't matter, but like you said, you still move things around. I think in the long run it makes sense to do because it is the best way to grow.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

buckwheat_la;980902 said:


> neige, what i am suggesting is that here, noone wants service every 6 hrs, it is very rarely asked for, and most companies won't pay for service twice a day. so because of that you take on more clients to cover a day of work. neige i have the upmost respect for how you guys deal with your snowfalls, unfortunately it just doesn't fly around here


Well thats just better for you, more coin to be made. I can just imagine how much more I could make increasing it to 6 hrs.


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## augerandblade (Jan 17, 2009)

Hey I too take pride in being the first out of the blocks and onto the lots. Sometimes that attitude helps ya not being caught with your plow down.


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## rooferdave (Jan 23, 2010)

cool thread, it is great to learn from all the experience out here! Being new (2 years) to this business I had 2 commercial acct's my first year about 1 km apart which took me about 30 minutes tops, I then went hourly for some one for all the spare time I had, also I have a bobcat as back up for my truck. as one of my accounts was where my office is located I did a pass or two every time I went to the shop for roofing needs sheet metal work etc. The interesting thing was the properties surrounding my work had very poor service (next day service or at best 10-15 hrs after an event.) It turned out that due to minimal snow in toronto for a number of years the people near my work had dropped prices and had to take on way to much work to meet overheads, and apparentley many were caught with their pants down last year. Four of the neighbouring properties hired me for this season for more money based on what they had seen, started this year with 1 truck, one bobcat and 6 commercial properties,I now have a three hour route and now with the addition of a 2nd truck I can do my route in 1.5 hours and then go back to my hourly work, I keep a very compact route and explain to my clients that I am about service not price, word has gotten out about my service and the level of dissatisfaciton/ frustration I have heard from people abut the snowplowing disservice they recieve is astounding, I declined over 30 requests for plowing this season as I told the prospective client that they were out of my target area as my plan is for very small localised service so as not to be more than 10 mins from any property at one time and perhaps next year I may be able to accomadate them.It is amazing how many have appreciated my declining, than to bs them and leaving them in the mess they have been accustomed to. I also find there is always some one can use an extra truck or two in an event when I have finished my route and have time on my hands. Next year I plan on going to 3 trucks and two full time drivers and one part time and want to go to 12 properties. Does this seem like a good model to those out there with more experience? Or do you think I am nuts?


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

It all depends what part of Toronto you're working in.


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## kcress31 (Sep 20, 2009)

It usually takes us about 6-8 hours from start to finish for us to complete all of our clients with 7 operators on 9 different machines. If it is a 20 - 30 cm event we can get it done in about 10 - 12 hrs. We usuallly start about midnight and get our 24 hour locations like the Hospital and ew 24 hr malls and gas stations. If it continues to snow we just go back to the first few lots and do them again. We then head out with our 2 plow trucks and service 8 roads that are located 90 km east of us and 50 km west of us. We try to balance out all of our clients that have staggered opening times.


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## LHK2 (Jan 22, 2007)

Here in Cleveland, we have accounts that require a max of a 4 hour turn around time during a storm. Not a big deal if we can control the storm by burning it with salt, but with lake effect you can get into trouble with a longer turn around time.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

rooferdave;981731 said:


> cool thread, it is great to learn from all the experience out here! Being new (2 years) to this business I had 2 commercial acct's my first year about 1 km apart which took me about 30 minutes tops, I then went hourly for some one for all the spare time I had, also I have a bobcat as back up for my truck. as one of my accounts was where my office is located I did a pass or two every time I went to the shop for roofing needs sheet metal work etc. The interesting thing was the properties surrounding my work had very poor service (next day service or at best 10-15 hrs after an event.) It turned out that due to minimal snow in toronto for a number of years the people near my work had dropped prices and had to take on way to much work to meet overheads, and apparentley many were caught with their pants down last year. Four of the neighbouring properties hired me for this season for more money based on what they had seen, started this year with 1 truck, one bobcat and 6 commercial properties,I now have a three hour route and now with the addition of a 2nd truck I can do my route in 1.5 hours and then go back to my hourly work, I keep a very compact route and explain to my clients that I am about service not price, word has gotten out about my service and the level of dissatisfaciton/ frustration I have heard from people abut the snowplowing disservice they recieve is astounding, I declined over 30 requests for plowing this season as I told the prospective client that they were out of my target area as my plan is for very small localised service so as not to be more than 10 mins from any property at one time and perhaps next year I may be able to accomadate them.It is amazing how many have appreciated my declining, than to bs them and leaving them in the mess they have been accustomed to. I also find there is always some one can use an extra truck or two in an event when I have finished my route and have time on my hands. Next year I plan on going to 3 trucks and two full time drivers and one part time and want to go to 12 properties. Does this seem like a good model to those out there with more experience? Or do you think I am nuts?


I think you already know the answer to that one. Your business plan seems to be working very well, keep your service area tight. Growing by adding one more truck is reasonable. I like it.


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