# Snow removal just doesnt seem to work anymore, but i keep doing it



## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Been plowing for 14 years now.
We have 100 snow removal accounts, they are all per push and per salt.
We havent plowed a single time this year.
I cant take on a full time job in the winter, because i have to be ready for snow as most of you know in this buisiness.
We have 4 plow trucks, 2 skidloaders, and 3 guys running snow blowers, i have the staff ready to go. No snow. 
It seriously gets very dark for me anymore this time of year. The helplessness, the desperation sets in. Why? Im ready to go for my customers to serve them and my crew, and we are just waiting and watching the bank account go down every winter.

Sigh sorry for the depressing post
Anyone have any advice


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## buttaluv (Dec 8, 2000)

I’ve said many times, when I sell this truck & plow.. I’m outta the snow business...


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

94gt331 said:


> Been plowing for 14 years now.
> We have 100 snow removal accounts, they are all per push and per salt.
> We havent plowed a single time this year.
> I cant take on a full time job in the winter, because i have to be ready for snow as most of you know in this buisiness.
> ...


 I been there. Only thing to remember is it balances out.Its like seasonal contracts, got to look at a multi year period. Plus the season may balance out. We've has 1 plow this season.2" ! the 4 salting events I went out alone, took a guy to do sidewalks one storm to have someone to talk to ! I do other work to pay bills ,so at least I have money coming in.Maybe find someone that needs a helper in one of the trades that's flexible .


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Would any of your clients entertain a Seasonal price? 
Figure out your "bills" for the winter, get enough contracts for the season to cover your bills and a little extra. That way you know for sure your costs are covered. The other clients will be gravy if it does Snow


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

buttaluv said:


> I've said many times, when I sell this truck & plow.. I'm outta the snow business...


 That's my exit plan, although I added death to the plan!


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Where we are located could be 20mm of rain, 40 min west of here could be 30 cm of snow. 
If that's the forecast we will advertise in that area during that storm. Get 10-15 calls for that storm, it's worth the 40 min drive if I would have been sitting home sitting on plowsite anyway.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

What's your summer job? 
Do you get laid off for the winter? EI?


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

NBRam1500 said:


> What's your summer job?
> Do you get laid off for the winter? EI?


Landscaping, we are trying to work alittle in the winter here, because its alittle mild, but its hard to convince customers for landscaping right now until spring


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

leigh said:


> I been there. Only thing to remember is it balances out.Its like seasonal contracts, got to look at a multi year period. Plus the season may balance out. We've has 1 plow this season.2" ! the 4 salting events I went out alone, took a guy to do sidewalks one storm to have someone to talk to ! I do other work to pay bills ,so at least I have money coming in.Maybe find someone that needs a helper in one of the trades that's flexible .


I really thought about working for some nationals at this point, as much as everyone hear has said not to, i listened to everyone here on not working for nationals lol. I have a couple buddys that are making easy money in there guarenteed seasonal contracts with them


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

94gt331 said:


> I really thought about working for some nationals at this point, as much as everyone hear has said not to, i listened to everyone here on not working for nationals lol. I have a couple buddys that are making easy money in there guarenteed seasonal contracts with them


FWIW, we're only 19
Days into the official winter season and 69 days into a 182 day contract season for snow. last season we didn't plow until Jan 18, this season we plowed November 10, and it was the most snow we'd ever gotten that early.

Also, seasonal contracts are worth it for us.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

You can't sell seasonals?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You can't sell seasonals?


Or buy snow Insurance


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You can't sell seasonals?


I guess not...It's a death sentence to have 100 accounts and not one seasonal...I could be wrong...But cash flow is an important part of keeping a business operational....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> I guess not...It's a death sentence to have 100 accounts and not one seasonal...I could be wrong...But cash flow is an important part of keeping a business operational....


Thanks JAA...


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

I always sell a few seasonal accounts, every year we get enough to cover most of our bills. Not all but most. 

Like above if you making huge bets maybe the snow insurance is a good idea. We would have all made out on that this year.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Or buy snow Insurance


You've got be HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE to do that...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Defcon 5 said:


> I guess not...It's a death sentence to have 100 accounts and not one seasonal...I could be wrong...But cash flow is an important part of keeping a business operational....


Yes, guys need to diversify... Get into plumbing, asphalt etc...


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

BossPlow2010 said:


> last season we didn't plow until Jan 18, this season we plowed November 10, and it was the most snow we'd ever gotten that early.


Actually it was Saturday 1/19 when had our first plowable event of 4"-6" last year. And it was November 11th & 12th when that storm moved in.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Lasting in any business is more than being able to sell work and complete it.
Budgeting and cash flow is a major component. 
Watch an episode of Shark Tank, nobody can invest in an "if" why should you be any different.. "If it snows you make out like a bandit"... What the other side to that if?
You've been at it for 14 years, is this the first time you've had to learn you have a serious vulnerability? Easy way out is to give it up, best thing to do is learn from it and start making changes for next season.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Yes, guys need to diversify... Get into plumbing, asphalt etc...


That would cut into some people's Internet trolling time


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Thanks JAA...


Don't appreciate your "tone"


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Don't appreciate your "tone"


Your point?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Yes, guys need to diversify... Get into plumbing, asphalt etc...


Fortunately, I make enough money doing other things to pay for my snow plowing habbit.

Seriously though, there are other ways to make money in the winters without snow. Many good ideas have been posted lately.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

It's not snowing, you've got plenty of time to crunch the numbers from the last 5 years.
How much total snow per season?
How many serviceable events?
What were the billable amounts from each service, for each customer?
You should already have all these numbers on a spread sheet.

When I'm talking to a potential new customer, and wanted to steer them toward a seasonal contract vs per service or by minute.
I would tell them " our minimum charge/ service is $30. Last year in February we serviced our contract customers 10 times, so that's $300." Makes that monthly amount really attractive. 

If you could get 50 customers to pay $400 for the season in advance, that's $20k.
How far would that cover you for the winter?
And that's a low number for my area, but we have had 10 services this year on a 2" trigger .


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You can't sell seasonals?


I actually think im going to go this route next year with a few clients or get some nationals. Think it has to be done with treating this as a buisiness


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Don't go national unless your willing to bank roll


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Luther said:


> Actually it was Saturday 1/19 when had our first plowable event of 4"-6" last year. And it was November 11th & 12th when that storm moved in.


We pre plowed both those events silly


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

Find a couple of high profile, well cared for places that look like they insist on top quality and try hard to make some contacts. You must have at least 1/3-1/2 of annual winter income guaranteed. Equip, insurance, salt supply etc... there is no way you can just "gamble" on going broke or not each year when it is 100 % outside your control. I had a great new job lined up this year and everything agreed on, property manager started changing things so there was 0 retainer. No way. When he tried to get that through...i simply said no thanks. Most quality business and landlords understand as long as you arent greedy. They wouldnt do a big build out of rental space for a client that wont sign a long term lease. Only reasonable. Try hiring fireman and telling them they only get to sign in when they are squirting water.  Anyway, figure out how to get a few contracts and get your business bomb proof. Feast or famine will only get worse if you dont fix it.


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Defcon 5 said:


> I guess not...It's a death sentence to have 100 accounts and not one seasonal...I could be wrong...But cash flow is an important part of keeping a business operational....


Yes i think your right on the death sentance, i guess after 14 years now i should have known better. Like others say, good to have a mix of seasonal and per push


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Mr.Markus said:


> Lasting in any business is more than being able to sell work and complete it.
> Budgeting and cash flow is a major component.
> Watch an episode of Shark Tank, nobody can invest in an "if" why should you be any different.. "If it snows you make out like a bandit"... What the other side to that if?
> You've been at it for 14 years, is this the first time you've had to learn you have a serious vulnerability? Easy way out is to give it up, best thing to do is learn from it and start making changes for next season.


Yea i need to make changes, our landscaping company does ok over summer, i can survive over winter if no snow, it just sucks watching the reserve go away. I agree though need to make some changes because with 100 customers, staff, ins, comp, payroll, equiptment, i take this as a buisiness and not just extra money, i figure i need to sell some seasonals to cover expenses. Thank you Mr.Markus


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

jonniesmooth said:


> It's not snowing, you've got plenty of time to crunch the numbers from the last 5 years.
> How much total snow per season?
> How many serviceable events?
> What were the billable amounts from each service, for each customer?
> ...


Solid advice.
We service about 50 driveways, figured a seasonal contract would be nice for them, low risk


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

As Devcon said it's about cash flow however I dont think seasonals are the only right answer.

OP what is your location?

If it's like us and a "low" snow area then you need to learn to budget for that. 
What is your primary source of revenue? Why is there not surplus there to float winter fixed operating cost? Alot of other questions come to mind...maybe go see a local business coach or talk to your accountant???


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

rick W said:


> Find a couple of high profile, well cared for places that look like they insist on top quality and try hard to make some contacts. You must have at least 1/3-1/2 of annual winter income guaranteed. Equip, insurance, salt supply etc... there is no way you can just "gamble" on going broke or not each year when it is 100 % outside your control. I had a great new job lined up this year and everything agreed on, property manager started changing things so there was 0 retainer. No way. When he tried to get that through...i simply said no thanks. Most quality business and landlords understand as long as you arent greedy. They wouldnt do a big build out of rental space for a client that wont sign a long term lease. Only reasonable. Try hiring fireman and telling them they only get to sign in when they are squirting water.  Anyway, figure out how to get a few contracts and get your business bomb proof. Feast or famine will only get worse if you dont fix it.


Solid advice


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

m_ice said:


> As Devcon said it's about cash flow however I dont think seasonals are the only right answer.
> 
> OP what is your location?
> 
> ...


We are in a average snow area in central pa but low snow events the last couple years, last year was awesome but last 5 years have been pretty slow honestly.
We do landscaping so that is good for about 9 months of solid income.
We have money saved for winter and we can survive, just get sick of seeing low income during winter is all. 
And getting thoughts from others that run a snow buisiness as a full time buisiness in winter i figured would be good. Thank you


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

I can think of 2 practical ways to protect yourself during the winter when plow work drys up, both have already been mentioned-
1) Having seasonal contracts (sounds like your already onboard with this idea not much for me to add)
2)diversification. Finding something else to stay busy and stop the cash hemorrhage. 

We do dirtwork 9 months a year, and while we pretty much shut that operation down when the ground freezes, we have one customer that keeps us busy year round (doing sewer line replacements). We did 2 replacements this month and that has kept us busy when we weren’t plowing.

you got anything you could start getting into during the winter months when your not plowing?


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Kinport said:


> I can think of 2 practical ways to protect yourself during the winter when plow work drys up, both have already been mentioned-
> 1) Having seasonal contracts (sounds like your already onboard with this idea not much for me to add)
> 2)diversification. Finding something else to stay busy and stop the cash hemorrhage.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice.
We do some landscape work in winter if available. We have a couple jobs lined up this week. We have a small junk removal buisiness im working on growing for winter months. Hoping to grow that service more for winter. Im working on Seo work right now for that, so hopefully it will keep getting busier thanks


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Yes, guys need to diversify... Get into plumbing, asphalt etc...


You forgot concrete and garage doors.......


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

jomama45 said:


> You forgot concrete and garage doors.......


And gigalo?


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

We buy a house to flip every winter. No Snow = My guys are still busy. I keep them busy so I know they don't go out and find another job. They are guaranteed hours . Couple of them get laid off by choice and just work storms .


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

EWSplow said:


> And gigalo?


That was in a former life, that's definitely a young man's job......


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

jomama45 said:


> That was in a former life, that's definitely a young man's job......


Nevermind...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

jomama45 said:


> That was in a former life, that's definitely a young man's job......


I think that business is more supply and demand driven. 
I'm guessing there's not much demand for what you're supplying.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

94gt331 said:


> Been plowing for 14 years now.
> We have 100 snow removal accounts, they are all per push and per salt.
> We havent plowed a single time this year.
> I cant take on a full time job in the winter, because i have to be ready for snow as most of you know in this buisiness.
> ...


Get some seasonal accounts to balance things out. When it doesn't snow, you get coin, if it does, you get coin. What do you do in the summer? With all those truck and equipment, maybe start a side business to help tide things over.


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Looks like a snow storm this weekend. Hopefully we get it!


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You can't sell seasonals?





Defcon 5 said:


> I guess not...It's a death sentence to have 100 accounts and not one seasonal...I could be wrong...But cash flow is an important part of keeping a business operational....


I've had them,and then I didn't ! For those who can't,won't try or have failed getting seasonals just make your accounts "seasonal " in your mind . With just per push accounts you're just 180 deg out of sink with those who have seasonals .If you're self-disciplined you can mitigate the seasonal swings yourself. The law of averages equal out. But considering 50% of the populace doesn't have 400$ for an emergency and many businesses don't have 6 months minimum operating capital this may be a tough road for many. We just muddle on and do the best we can !Thumbs Up


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Yes, guys need to diversify... Get into plumbing, asphalt etc...


 Plumbing would be okay. asphalt this time of year you would be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I was going back through this and some of the guys did mention budgeting in your busy season to get through the winter.
So I'll recommend my financial expert, Dave Ramsey. You can find him on the radio, you can find him on Instagram,or Youtube.
Some people think it's extreme, but personal finance is more about behavior than money


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

94gt331 said:


> Yea i need to make changes, our landscaping company does ok over summer, i can survive over winter if no snow, it just sucks watching the reserve go away. I agree though need to make some changes because with 100 customers, staff, ins, comp, payroll, equiptment, i take this as a buisiness and not just extra money, i figure i need to sell some seasonals to cover expenses. Thank you Mr.Markus


Should sell your lawn mowers and rakes and buy some saws and hammers and become carpenter/framer. It's year around work with zero competition because the working youth is too busy starting up landscaping businesses to give any other trades a second look


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Masssnowfighter said:


> Should sell your lawn mowers and rakes and buy some saws and hammers and become carpenter/framer. It's year around work with zero competition because the working youth is too busy starting up landscaping businesses to give any other trades a second look


There's a lot of truth in that. But, at least 50-75% of them don't even do any real work. They are too busy with podcasts,webcams,gopro, tubeyou ( look at me, I'm talking like the big guys here.)This whole social media thing is ridiculous. All these lawn care, snow too, vlogs. These guys really think they're something. They spend their days checking their pages and answering comments, getting sponsors and companies to give them stuff to demo.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

jonniesmooth said:


> There's a lot of truth in that. But, at least 50-75% of them don't even do any real work. They are too busy with podcasts,webcams,gopro, tubeyou ( look at me, I'm talking like the big guys here.)This whole social media thing is ridiculous. All these lawn care, snow too, vlogs. These guys really think they're something. They spend their days checking their pages and answering comments, getting sponsors and companies to give them stuff to demo.


Are you referring to Stanley the dirty monkey? I actually get a good laugh when I watch his videos as he is a self proclaimed "snow plowing guru" that thinks his snowplowing knowledge is worth selling. For Christ's sake the guy just discovered Arctic and metal Pless pushers exist


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Masssnowfighter said:


> Are you referring to Stanley the dirty monkey? I actually get a good laugh when I watch his videos as he is a self proclaimed "snow plowing guru" that thinks his snowplowing knowledge is worth selling. For Christ's sake the guy just discovered Arctic and metal Pless pushers exist


I think he was talking about AJ and Mark...


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> I think he was talking about AJ and Mark...


LMAO


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Masssnowfighter said:


> Are you referring to Stanley the dirty monkey? I actually get a good laugh when I watch his videos as he is a self proclaimed "snow plowing guru" that thinks his snowplowing knowledge is worth selling. For Christ's sake the guy just discovered Arctic and metal Pless pushers exist


No,these guys want to be Stan. I saw the other day Stan was at the consumer electronics show. Now, I don't have a problem with Stan, I've even watched and commented on some of his stuff. But these new guys don't want to cut grass, they want to be "social media influencers". As far as the guys here, Mark,AJ, Buff etc. they do stuff, have done stuff, and are still doing it. One of my Youtube guys I did like was/is George Packerd, Family Lawn and Landscape.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

About 5 years ago I too almost went under for the count. I decided to go with annual contracts, pay up front for the season. I figured if I get no takers for seasonal charge, Ill find other work. But Ill know to find work BEFORE I go bankrupt. I was surprised I only lost about 20% of my customers. Over the next 2 years I got back 90% of them.

I am very happy I went to seasonal pricing. Many of my customers prefer it too.



94gt331 said:


> Been plowing for 14 years now.
> We have 100 snow removal accounts, they are all per push and per salt.
> We havent plowed a single time this year.
> I cant take on a full time job in the winter, because i have to be ready for snow as most of you know in this buisiness.
> ...


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

theplowmeister said:


> About 5 years ago I too almost went under for the count. I decided to go with annual contracts, pay up front for the season. I figured if I get no takers for seasonal charge, Ill find other work. But Ill know to find work BEFORE I go bankrupt. I was surprised I only lost about 20% of my customers. Over the next 2 years I got back 90% of them.
> 
> I am very happy I went to seasonal pricing. Many of my customers prefer it too.


Thats awesome man. If i remember some of your posts, you do a pile of driveways right. 100 or so right. Good job


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> I think he was talking about AJ and Mark...


Who?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Who?


Exactly...!


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> Exactly...!


@BossPlow2010 and who?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

jonniesmooth said:


> I was going back through this and some of the guys did mention budgeting in your busy season to get through the winter.
> So I'll recommend my financial expert, Dave Ramsey. You can find him on the radio, you can find him on Instagram,or Youtube.
> Some people think it's extreme, but personal finance is more about behavior than money


I had an hour to kill last night while waiting for a hospital wing to drain down so I figured I would finally watch this as you have posted his stuff multiple times and I have never cared enough to click on the links.

What I find interesting is that #1: there are that many people interested in this guy to fill that large of a venue... #2: that adults actually have to be physically told what he said in this 45 minute ordeal... ?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Philbilly2 said:


> I had an hour to kill last night while waiting for a hospital wing to drain down so I figured I would finally watch this as you have posted his stuff multiple times and I have never cared enough to click on the links.
> 
> What I find interesting is that #1: there are that many people interested in this guy to fill that large of a venue... #2: that adults actually have to be physically told what he said in this 45 minute ordeal... ?


That's the whole point. You can't believe adults need to be told this. But the reality is you are in a very small minority. To make it worse,those people get to vote too. And we know who for too.
And i'll leave it at that.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

jonniesmooth said:


> That's the whole point. You can't believe adults need to be told this. But the reality is you are in a very small minority. To make it worse,those people get to vote too. And we know who for too.
> And i'll leave it at that


Adults absolutely need to be told this, especially my wife. She still acts like 15 year old girl that stole her parents credit card. The worse part is she has a nice corporate job with a 6 figure plus salary but has been in major credit card debt for all 20 years we have been together. I have tried everything to get her straightened out financially but it has been such a lost cause. Rant over


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

It was a good weekend. We got our first snow storm. We were busy for 3 days. Im happy, looks promising in the next week for some more activity.


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