# Liability waiver?



## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Cheap client 
Doesn't want to have lot and walkways done as per recommendations. 
Do any of you have a non liability waiver you get such clients to sign?


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## Shade Tree NJ (Dec 26, 2010)

RUN don’t walk from this “customer.” Will be the first to call durning or following a storm wondering where you are. Tell them liability insurance requires it to be done when determined by the contractor based on weather forecast.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Shade Tree NJ said:


> RUN don't walk from this "customer." Will be the first to call durning or following a storm wondering where you are. Tell them liability insurance requires it to be done when determined by the contractor based on weather forecast.


It's on a per call basis 
Pricing given based on storm amount
Anything less than 5cm they will take care of themselves.


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## Shade Tree NJ (Dec 26, 2010)

Personally I wouldn’t touch it....”to much hair” on it for my liking.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

If you ever want to be a professional in your field you have to be able to tell them your process. If it doesnt fit for them and they need to control the where,when,how and how much, your just a teenager with a truck.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Mr.Markus said:


> If you ever want to be a professional in your field you have to be able to tell them your process. If it doesnt fit for them and they need to control the where,when,how and how much, your just a teenager with a truck.


Don't see how your comments are helpful to the question. This is a hotel on an old Highway in rural area. Owner is elderly , trying to help them out but also cover my *** at the same time


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

NBRam1500 said:


> trying to help them out


You wanna help or you wanna make money which is it?
So when he feels he needs you, you supposed to fit him in? What if your busy and cant make it then what? What if you broke and cant come?


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

I drive by it on my way to my route and on my way home. It's not out of my way. I gave them a call window to let me know if they want it done. If I have to make a special trip they know it's extra .

Pricing or profit was not the question.

Again your comments do not seem helpful in anyway.
If I'm broke? Equipment failure? I have a backup setup.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

NBRam1500 said:


> Don't see how your comments are helpful to the question. This is a hotel on an old Highway in rural area. Owner is elderly , trying to help them out but also cover my ass at the same time





NBRam1500 said:


> Again your comments do not seem helpful in anyway.


Then you have a lot to learn. Both comments were exactly on point. Maybe you should lose the chip and listen to these guys. Really listen.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I gave a price to a VFW that shares a lot with another customer. They are unhappy with their service provider. My price was quite a bit higher...manager says "we're a non-profit, is there anything you can do?" 

Weird, I'm not a non-profit. If you want good service you'll have to pay for it. Budgeting and poor service is your problem, not mine.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Don't get me wrong I'm making a good profit when they do call. But since I'm not the only one taking care of the property. I was curious what others do in the situation as far as liability.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

I'm open to advice as much as anyone else. 
Scheduling them in and equipment failure was not a worry.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Well, if you abide by your contract, there is no liability for you. 

Just because someone signs a liability waiver does not mean you are not liable if something happens because you didn't perform/ 

People sue all the time whether there are liability waivers in place or not. If they actually held up in court, there would be a poop ton of lawyers out of work.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

NBRam1500 said:


> Do any of you have a non liability waiver you get such clients to sign?


Yes. You should too.

However, like Mark said it won't stop possible future litigation that you can be pulled into...but it is helpful.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Well, if you abide by your contract, there is no liability for you.
> 
> Just because someone signs a liability waiver does not mean you are not liable if something happens because you didn't perform/
> 
> People sue all the time whether there are liability waivers in place or not. If they actually held up in court, there would be a poop ton of lawyers out of work.


Metric , Imperial and now poop tons ...... who knew ... ?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

NBRam1500 said:


> Cheap client
> Doesn't want to have lot and walkways done as per recommendations.
> Do any of you have a non liability waiver you get such clients to sign?


Since they don't want what's being recommended and if whatt they want for service is outside your comfort level pass on the work.
IMO a non liability waiver doesn't fully protect you like a couple of the other fellas said.
If this customer is as cheap as you say they need a guy that Plows for beer money.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Thanks for the suggestions and advice.


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## abbe (Sep 8, 2009)

We had a large property manager customer of ours pull this stunt last event. They wanted to sit and wait and see what happened because of supposed warm up and rain. 

We handle about 10 commercial sites for this customer and they pass the invoices directly on to the owner with no markup, as they are contracted to handle the whole facility not just exterior grounds. 

I sent over a liability release waiver specifying that no service was to be performed on the properties listed on the dates listed as per conversation with so and so. 

Within a half hour I had a response email saying service as you normally do at your discretion. Yeah that’s what I thought. 


Gotta love when they have you indemnify them and sign a hold harmless as part of the contract and then attempt to tie your hands behind your back. I don’t do this for a hobby and my insurance premiums certainly back that up. 

Next customer that pulls that stunt is getting the boot right out the door.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

So the real question is if a waiver of liability actually is effective why isnt it part of your package for all your customers, just submit it at signing and see if it falls through the cracks..


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## abbe (Sep 8, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> So the real question is if a waiver of liability actually is effective why isnt it part of your package for all your customers, just submit it at signing and see if it falls through the cracks..


Do you mean is it actually effective in the event of litigation? or do you mean effective as a tool to make your customers understand the significance of the service you provide?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Yes


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## abbe (Sep 8, 2009)

Lol. Honestly I usually have zero pushback on service. This was a rather new thing.

I did actually just review a little more in depth a contract I signed for service on a small self storage facility close by. It specifically indemnifies the national company that owns it, and simultaneously says that regardless of the repercussions of decisions made by its management staff.

I noticed this because they are the only customer we have with salting on call. So basically if they say do not salt and then someone takes a header, they are technically not liable.


Going to either be rectifying this with an addendum or they will be searching for a new provider.


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

NBRam1500 said:


> Cheap client
> Doesn't want to have lot and walkways done as per recommendations.
> Do any of you have a non liability waiver you get such clients to sign?


Write specifically in your contract that the client is responsible for all slip and falls that may occur due to this and they are responsible for your lawyer costs.

What I have in my contracts;

To the fullest extent permitted by law, the client shall indemnify, defend and hold harmless the snow contractor and or subcontractors from and against any and all liabilities, costs, damages, and expenses (including without limitation attorneys' fees and other costs of defense) for injuries or damage to persons or property which occur when the snow contractor is not physically on premises while they are not in performance of the scope of their duties outlined in the contract.

Sidenote:

A few years ago a gas station that I plow only with no sanding unless requested had a slip and fall at their pumps -(on a non storm day mind you)
Not only did I have the above in the contract, I stated this in the site description /scope of work

No Salt/Sand product is being applied unless directed by property manager, as such snow contractor will bear no responsibly for any slip and falls due to no sand/salt being applied.

Sidewalks are maintained by the client as such snow contractor will bear no responsibly for any slip and falls on them.

Their lawyer called me up, I emailed him the contract with this highlighted and was covered, they had to take care of it without involving me.

Could you still be sued, of course but something like this in your contracts gives your insurance / lawyers a way out and puts it back on the client.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Here comes the setup...

(BTW not a property i do, just a letter in the local paper this week.

https://www.wellingtonadvertiser.com/letter/good-samaritans/


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## blueridgeLC (Nov 9, 2019)

Drop the client, Wells Fargo and a contractor just got hit this year for 7 million for a slip and fall and pain and suffering for the wife having to witness the “ horror “ this was in New Jersey, I’m pretty sure the article was on this site. 

this question should be asked to your attorney, if you don’t have one go find one and give him a grand retainer to answer your questions all year.....


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

We dropped the client they wanted to control when it was done and not follow our recommendations. 

We did speak with our lawyer to modify our contracts to protect ourselves. Seems the states is a bit more sue happy then we are in Canada.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Updated our insurance policy
Incorporated the company 
Not sure how it works in the states, but after speaking with my lawyer I highly recommend anyone plowing as a business to do so.


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## blueridgeLC (Nov 9, 2019)

NBRam1500 said:


> Updated our insurance policy
> Incorporated the company
> Not sure how it works in the states, but after speaking with my lawyer I highly recommend anyone plowing as a business to do so.


It's a hot mess.... literally 55 degrees in PA and raining


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## Shade Tree NJ (Dec 26, 2010)

blueridgeLC said:


> Drop the client, Wells Fargo and a contractor just got hit this year for 7 million for a slip and fall and pain and suffering for the wife having to witness the " horror " this was in New Jersey, I'm pretty sure the article was on this site.
> 
> this question should be asked to your attorney, if you don't have one go find one and give him a grand retainer to answer your questions all year.....


unfortunately in NJ there is no cap for slip and falls so they sue for millions. Obviously lawyers know this and shoot for the stars. A guy in Freehold NJ slipped and fell at a Starbucks, on a refreeze from melt off a stacked pile. Settled, out of court if I remember correctly for around $2million. NJ sucks for liability when comes to snow.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

That's crazy ... Then people wonder why insurance rates are so high.


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## sota (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm furious at the "cheaper to settle" argument whenever it's made.
No, it's not. You're going to shaft US, the paying public, regardless of if you pay out or fight. So fight the damn fight! Maybe there will be fewer of them in the future.


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## Shade Tree NJ (Dec 26, 2010)

Unfortunately a lot of times it is cheaper to cut a check for a set amount then battle in court for years with lawyer fees and not knowing final outcome
NJ needs a cap these types of lawsuits that other states have. A lot less would occur


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## sota (Jan 31, 2011)

NJ should get back to another kind of "capping"; maybe these types of problems would be solved more amicably.


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## Shade Tree NJ (Dec 26, 2010)

Take a medical malpractice, unless severe, life altering or death there is a set cap on the payout. Makes dr insurance a lot cheaper with insurance knowing the top payout.
They should start with capping Trenton and starting all over


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

there is only a cap on "pain and suffering in MT
(Montana's cap for non-economic damages in medical malpractice cases is set at *$250,000*,)
It's important to point out that Montana's cap on medical malpractice damages does not apply to economic damages, which are losses that include the plaintiff's past medical bills, cost of future medical care, reimbursement of lost earnings, compensation for harm to the plaintiff's ability to work because of the malpractice, and any other provable losses that can be tied to the malpractice and/or to the medical treatment that was made necessary by it.

as for NJ
There is currently no overall cap on compensatory (economic or non-economic) damages in medical malpractice cases in New Jersey. But in any injury case, punitive damages are limited to $350,000 or five times the amount of compensatory damages, whichever is greater. This law is codified at New Jersey Statutes section 2A:15-5.14.

as for a liability waver, you can't sign away a 3rd party's right to sue you for damages.


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