# What equipment would you use



## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

Property management company usually does the plowing for these 3 apartment complexes but is looking to sub them out. RED FLAG they told me they contacted a few big companies in the area last year I.E Brightview ect. but never heard back from them.
The Property management company will be supplying the salt for parking lots and side walk. They have a yard 3 minutes from these 3 apartment complexes. I would be in charge of clearing the snow and labor to salt. How would you handle charging a customer who wants to supply salt? I never dealt with that before.

I would like to know what you would use to complete the job and how long it would take.

Apartment complex 1 (Biggest)
Blue is lots I am responsible for 91000 Square Feet
Red is walkways 7,200 linear feet (I am not responsible for walks leading up to the buildings only the main walks.)

Second Apartment complex
77500 Square feet lots
1080 linear feet of walkway

3rd Complex
77200 square feet parking lots
no sidewalks

Apartments are within a 2 minute drive from each other


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Oakplow said:


> Property management company usually does the plowing for these 3 apartment complexes but is looking to sub them out. RED FLAG they told me they contacted a few big companies in the area last year I.E Brightview ect. but never heard back from them.
> The Property management company will be supplying the salt for parking lots and side walk. They have a yard 3 minutes from these 3 apartment complexes. I would be in charge of clearing the snow and labor to salt. How would you handle charging a customer who wants to supply salt? I never dealt with that before.
> 
> I would like to know what you would use to complete the job and how long it would take.
> ...


What are you currently using for the complex you have?


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## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

Currently I am totally not prepared to take this on. I only have one truck set up as a sub but I have the means to buy whatever equipment I would need to service these properties. If the price makes sense. But buying equipment is the easy part. I will be planning on at least 2 guys working the walks with blowers and shovels. 

I service another apartment complex next door as a sub for another company and I know what he is charging. Just curious how much 1 truck can take on (Not planning on just having 1 truck) and what to expect time wise to clear walks and lots. As well as how to handle the situation of the Property manager supplying the salt.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Lets try this again.....
What do you have for a pickup, spreader and plow now.
What does the current complex take you now, this is a good base line to determine how productive you and your current set up is.
How is the salt being loaded for you to spread?


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## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

I have a dodge 2500 with a 7 1/2 western plow. Could you restate what you mean by what do they take me on now? The property manager currently maintains all the complexes so they have the equipment but they are lacking people to run it to cover these properties. They will be doing the main roads.
Salt would be loaded in their yard with a skid. I do not have a salt spreader. I would be planning on getting a 2 yard salt spreader.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Oakplow said:


> I have a dodge 2500 with a 7 1/2 western plow. Could you restate what you mean by what do they take me on now? The property manager currently maintains all the complexes so they have the equipment but they are lacking people to run it to cover these properties. They will be doing the main roads.
> Salt would be loaded in their yard with a skid. I do not have a salt spreader. I would be planning on getting a 2 yard salt spreader.


So, you would be using their sidewalk equipment?
You'll be loading your spreader with there loader?
As buff said, you know how productive you will be based on the one you're doing now. Figure the size of that one compared to this one. Add time for loading and spreading salt. Presumably, you'll want to make more per hour than you do as a sub? 
Are you thinking about leaving equipment on site, or at their yard?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

My bad..... Based on this:
_Apartment complex 1 (Biggest)
*Blue is lots I am responsible for 91000 Square Feet*
Red is walkways 7,200 linear feet (I am not responsible for walks leading up to the buildings only the main walks.)_
I was under the impression you were already servicing the 1st place.
For starters I would put a set of "wings" on your plow, you'll gain aboot 2ft in width and with the wings being angled forward you'll reduce the amount of trailoff which will increase your productivity by aboot 25%<>.
With a set of "wings" on your current plow with a good operator your setup should be able to clear an acre in aboot 30min up to aboot 4-5" of accumulation. Since the lot will have vehicles parked in it at all times the actual square feet to be plow is reduced. So the first lot shouldn't take more than an hour to plow providing you don't have to move the snow to a specific location meaning if you can push/stack at the end of the lot 1hr works.
As far as the walks go, I'd suggest only using blowers when there's more than 8" <> of accumulation due to them being slower, I would look into a "Sno-Rator" type of machine. I personally never ran one so I'm no help with productivity.
In theory one pickup should be able to service all three lots in aboot 3.5-4hrs, this includes spreader salt too. But you also need a back up rig/plan in the event your rig / plow goes down. If you were to buy another rig I highly suggest it has a V plow with a set of wings. This is a very efficient tool to do property's like this if you're using a pickup. Since you won't be able to windrow to the side due to vehicles being parked you need to pull snow away from the vehicles and push it all to the end of the lot, this is where a V with wings really shines.


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## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

I am in charge of my own equipment besides them loading the salt. I can do the other apartment complex that I sub for which is roughly 40k square feet of parking lot in 45 minutes or so. For a 2 inch storm i know the guy who does that lot gets $950 with the walkways. I dont do the walkways. He had his own guys for that.

The complexes I am bidding on are bigger and the first complex has about double the sidewalks and lots that my buddy does for that $950.
I cant keep anything in there yard or at the complexes. But my shop is only 10 minute drive so it's not bad.


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## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

Buff that is a relief what you are saying. I plan on either buying another setup or having a couple of subs on hand should something go wrong. The wings are a good idea. The lots are difficult and in some areas I will have to take the snow out of the lot and stack in common areas. Assuming 800 pounds of salt per acre should cover it. Normally I would charge per the ton but how would you charge if they are supplying it. I was thinking $350 per application and since each complex is a different contract that would be $1050 per app.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Oakplow said:


> Buff that is a relief what you are saying. I plan on either buying another setup or having a couple of subs on hand should something go wrong. The wings are a good idea. The lots are difficult and in some areas I will have to take the snow out of the lot and stack in common areas. Assuming 800 pounds of salt per acre should cover it. Normally I would charge per the ton but how would you charge if they are supplying it. I was thinking $350 per application and since each complex is a different contract that would be $1050 per app.


You'll need to come up with the rate to spread based on your operating cost. With a 2yd spreader and the 800# an acre you'll probably end up going to the yard once per lot. I'd figure on 45min per lot which includes travel time providing you can be loaded fairly quick, this also gives you some cushion time wise too. Your $350 per app seems to be a lot considering they're providing the salt but your market area has mulch higher rates than mine. I use 3x the cost of salt for each appp, for easy math if salt was $120/ton and I spread a ton it'd be $360 per app. 
Also I've learn on here NJ GL insurance rates are very expensive, I assume you've looked into the cost of it.


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## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

Plow insurance rates that I was quoted last year I believe started at $4500 per truck.. I am going to put some numbers together


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## rick W (Dec 17, 2015)

Just another suggestion. Take the walks seriously and get the right machine to make it fast and simple. Walks seem to be what people ***** about the most, and is the hardest. It always makes me mad when i am doing walks with a pail of salt and a shovel or blower and my 80k truck with 9' plow is idling and i am cold and grumpy. A machine like a ventrac ssv or small tractor with blade and quality drop salter will make the crappiest part of this job a non issue. Throw money at the crappy stuff to make it easy and profitable. That way walks are done well and quickly and your truck can spend more time keeping lots good. I was always too cheap to get the right machine for walks and every year shake my head. I always had no issue having good heavy equip and plows but thought spending on the walks was silly as the guys can knock them off with shovels and blower and pails of salt. Think that is the dumbest thing i have done with snow. Fixing that now between last year and this year...sidewalks are now fast, easy and it just costs what it costs. My opinion as you asked.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Oakplow said:


> I am in charge of my own equipment besides them loading the salt. I can do the other apartment complex that I sub for which is roughly 40k square feet of parking lot in 45 minutes or so. For a 2 inch storm i know the guy who does that lot gets $950 with the walkways. I dont do the walkways. He had his own guys for that.
> 
> The complexes I am bidding on are bigger and the first complex has about double the sidewalks and lots that my buddy does for that $950.
> I cant keep anything in there yard or at the complexes. But my shop is only 10 minute drive so it's not bad.


Maybe you can sub the walks to someone? Just a thought.
And, as Buff said, a V plow would help.
You might also consider something smaller, like a Jeep for the parking spaces. Or, maybe a back blade to pull the snow out.
With having your shop so close, you can easily clear it out and switch equipment for clean up.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> Maybe you can sub the walks to someone? Just a thought.
> And, as Buff said, a V plow would help.
> You might also consider something smaller, like a Jeep for the parking spaces. Or, maybe a back blade to pull the snow out.
> With having your shop so close, you can easily clear it out and switch equipment for clean up.


I'd steer clear of clearing spaces between cars, its' opening up the door for some AC to say your clipped there car with the plow. In my contracts it says, "snow to be removed within 2ft of parked vehicles".


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BUFF said:


> I'd steer clear of clearing spaces between cars, its' opening up the door for some AC to say your clipped there car with the plow. In my contracts it says, "snow to be removed within 2ft of parked vehicles".


After the cars leave.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

EWSplow said:


> After the cars leave.


I won't go between 2 vehicles if there's one open space between them, there's just not enough room. Parking spaces are typically 7.5-9 feet wide and the trend seems to be they favor the 7.5-8 feet range.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BUFF said:


> I won't go between 2 vehicles if there's one open space between them, there's just not enough room. Parking spaces are typically 7.5-9 feet wide and the trend seems to be they favor the 7.5-8 feet range.


Did I miss the part that it is a retirement community?
At some point in the day, the majority of the cars will be gone.


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## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

Not a retirement community but yes a some point the cars will be gone and I will have to make a return visit to cleanup the lot. Majority of the plowing during the storm will be just keeping the lanes open. Which in theory makes the actually size of the lots smaller. I will have a clause stating that i will make 1 return visit the next day but am not responsible for teanants cleaning off cars ect after that visit. If they want me to come back it will be additional.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Looks like a nightmare account. You can't handle it. You're simply not prepared for what this is. Read what you posted originally...Property mngmt wants to sub it out, and big co's declined it. RED FLAGS. you'll end up spending a lot of money on equipment and staff to lose it next year. If you do decide to dive in, get a 3 yr contract so you can make the equipment purchases worthwhile. The money you won't make on suppling salt yourself will be significant. They will want this done on the cheap too, no doubt.


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## agurdo17 (Sep 15, 2011)

Rent a 75hp tractor and pusher with back drag edge. Run ur truck as a backup. They are going to want you to be there 24/7 cleaning spots where those cars are parked. Dont expect to plow and leave and come back next snow. never happen. Run it for a year. Take small profit If they will sign long term I'd buy a tractor and hla..... just me.... if u have not been in the game long be aware that commercial accounts love to price check with less experienced contractors so they have cheap quotes to drive the price down on the ones with solid experience.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Oakplow said:


> Not a retirement community but yes a some point the cars will be gone and I will have to make a return visit to cleanup the lot. Majority of the plowing during the storm will be just keeping the lanes open. Which in theory makes the actually size of the lots smaller. I will have a clause stating that i will make 1 return visit the next day but am not responsible for teanants cleaning off cars ect after that visit. If they want me to come back it will be additional.


OP, did you end up getting the account, and if so, what equipment are you going with?


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

Skid steer not less than 75hp. 88" snow bucket to clean between cars, you want to be there get it done and get out.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

We do a number of apartment buildings and use 75 or 85 h.p. Ag tractors with either a 96" or a 108" bucket. Our contracts state that all vehicles are to be removed from the sites by a certain time when we are plowing. Any left behind will either be towed at owners expense or we surcharge the apartment building owners and they bill it back to the tenant.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Man 
I wouldn’t go buy equipment for a few acres with a company I’m not familiar with 

If you can do it by just buying a spreader (which you want to have anyway) and renting a tractor or skidsteer for a reasonable rate then maybe 

They have their own equipment and can go back in house at any time Leaving you holding a multi year investment 

I wouldn’t worry about brightview not calling them back that’s not necessarily a red flag 
That’s probably brightview personel dropping the ball/poor customer service 
Surprisingly common at larger companies like that 
I’ve been there and watched the chaos 
There’s probably six area managers/sales guys thinking someone else called those people back


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

wishfull said:


> We do a number of apartment buildings and use 75 or 85 h.p. Ag tractors with either a 96" or a 108" bucket. Our contracts state that all vehicles are to be removed from the sites by a certain time when we are plowing. Any left behind will either be towed at owners expense or we surcharge the apartment building owners and they bill it back to the tenant.


Every where different here often vehicle is dead for winter and that would not be bad if it was put in a corner out of the way but no it like someone missing every other tooth.
Do they often have a tow truck show up, that would be funny.


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## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

I sent the contract out to them, after many emails and calls asking for it. Never heard back from them. With the winter storm we just had in Jersey. I drove by the properties as I was doing the other condo I sub for and not 1 of the lots were plowed or sidewalks done.. guess they aren't doing it in house or contracting it out.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Oakplow said:


> I sent the contract out to them, after many emails and calls asking for it. Never heard back from them. With the winter storm we just had in Jersey. I drove by the properties as I was doing the other condo I sub for and not 1 of the lots were plowed or sidewalks done.. guess they aren't doing it in house or contracting it out.


Thanks for following up.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

Tow trucks used to show up quite often but word spread so it's a morning scramble now for them to get out as they all wait to the last minute. It's mostly just a surcharge every once in a while now. Hotels and motels are now are biggest problem. We do them during the day when they aren't so full of course. Oakplow don't say it's over just yet. They could still be price hunting or waiting to see if you get nervous and drop your price.


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## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

I talked to my buddy who they called last spring. They wanted a price for the entire complex. About 8 or 9 separate apartment complexes. Roughly 15 miles of walkways. And hundreds of thousands square feet of parking lots. He gave them a price. Very aggressive price. And they also never got back to him. After further research talking to others, The reviews I heard is that they dont care what the place looks like. They usually scrape it once and whatever gets moved gets moved. I heard they do the bare minimum. And if they don't get back to me they wont get back to anyone as a close family friend is the main mechanic there, which is how I got the RFP. I am not worried about not getting the contract. I have a 12 hour route for a 3 inch storm that I do for another contractor. Money is good and keeps me busy. This is the first year that Property managers have been contacting me on their own. Just waiting to get some good accounts on my own. No sense on taking on accounts that are head aches when I have steady work that pays well.


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## Oakplow (Oct 8, 2016)

Update. Recieved a call from them this morning. Seems to be going in the right direction. They are confused if they are responsible for some of the walkways that are marked in the bigger complex. After they told me they were when we did a walk through. Apparently their maintenance staff just started doing it years ago when they weren't supposed to and just kept doing it?? They will get back to me on that one. Contracts are being revised. Simple mistakes on my end. We'll see where it goes.


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