# SIMA



## Rubber City Landscaping

Hey guys just wondering how many of you are members of SIMA? and how many of you have been certified? Do you think it adds value to your company? Did you learn a lot getting certified? Right now I'm a one man band but Im starting to grow pretty fast and getting ready to take on some employees. if you don't think SIMA is necessary now how big does your company need to be before SIMA becomes beneficial.


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## Mark Oomkes

Yes

No

No


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## Mr.Markus

Are you a member of any landscape associations? If so Some of the good things they do for large and small companies is networking, advertising, and educational material etc. As business owners we like to think we know it all and that we keep up with new trends but when you run your own business it is hard to make the time to do regular ongoing research. Sending employees to shows and educational seminars is a great way to get feedback and ideas of what can be used/ changed in the field to empower employees to do better work and feel more satisfied about the work they do.

I’m not a member...


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## BossPlow2010

Used to be a member, back when it was like 150$ 
I believe it’s like 300 ish now.
Also used to be a member of asca,
I just allowed my asca membership to lapse because I’d like to pursue my csp.
Of all my time plowing, I’ve never had a customer say 
“Wow you’re a member of so and so, you’re hired”
I see it more as a group of classes geared towards our industry. Each has they’re own goal, ASCA and sima are the big ones I’m comparing. So do I feel something can be taken from each, sure do! 
Do I think it’s imperative that you become a member of a group, not at this time.


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## tpendagast

BossPlow2010 said:


> Used to be a member, back when it was like 150$
> I believe it's like 300 ish now.
> Also used to be a member of asca,
> I just allowed my asca membership to lapse because I'd like to pursue my csp.
> Of all my time plowing, I've never had a customer say
> "Wow you're a member of so and so, you're hired"
> I see it more as a group of classes geared towards our industry. Each has they're own goal, ASCA and sima are the big ones I'm comparing. So do I feel something can be taken from each, sure do!
> Do I think it's imperative that you become a member of a group, not at this time.


Thats like ISO 9001 certified... "GET certified and youll get all these jobs!" ive never seen one contract requiring it....


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## BossPlow2010

tpendagast said:


> Thats like ISO 9001 certified... "GET certified and youll get all these jobs!" ive never seen one contract requiring it....


I don't follow what goes on in each state, but I'm almost sure there was legislation passed in Illinois?
@Luther would know for sure, and I believe they're trying to get more states on board


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## tpendagast

BossPlow2010 said:


> I don't follow what goes on in each state, but I'm almost sure there was legislation passed in Illinois?
> @Luther would know for sure, and I believe they're trying to get more states on board


yea I think they are...seems like a lot of literature and pushing, but until theres requirement for it, who's going to put forward the substantial time and training to get certified?


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## BossPlow2010

tpendagast said:


> yea I think they are...seems like a lot of literature and pushing, but until theres requirement for it, who's going to put forward the substantial time and training to get certified?


Those who feel they can and or want to make a difference, I feel a lot of it has to do with the path you choose, you can say "ya there's going to be hacks in every business and I'm just going to keep doing my thing" or you can say "I'd like to see some standardizationto try and help make my industry less viewed as just another service for people to receive.

Im not saying one path is more right than the other, but the OP should actively read from people that are in and those that aren't (I know shooting myself in the foot with that comment)
That's how I see it


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## Luther

tpendagast said:


> Thats like ISO 9001 certified... "GET certified and youll get all these jobs!" ive never seen one contract requiring it....


Where have you seen that? Who has ever advocated achieve ISO 9001 and "youll get all these jobs".

Do you have any idea why companies work towards their ISO cert?


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## Luther

BossPlow2010 said:


> I don't follow what goes on in each state, but I'm almost sure there was legislation passed in Illinois?
> @Luther would know for sure, and I believe they're trying to get more states on board


Yes HB 2138 passed in Illinois, but that has nothing to do with ISO...which is what our resident Alaskan is trying to talk about. HB 2138 is known as the snow removal service liability limitation act.


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## Luther

tpendagast said:


> ...but until theres requirement for it, who's going to put forward the substantial time and training to get certified?


Thousands of people over the years. People who take their snow and ice management business seriously and want to learn. Not surprised you don't find value in this.


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## Hydromaster

When the "trade" is unionized standardization,training and practices will follow.

These organizations that pop-up like sima are the beginning of the union as their organizing the larger players

Jmo

Government interference /regs =
imore government in your business.

Hack or no hack​


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## tpendagast

Luther said:


> Thousands of people over the years. People who take their snow and ice management business seriously and want to learn. Not surprised you don't find value in this.


What benefit do you receive from it?
A sense of elitism?
You already have that.

You could be the areas only certified company 
If it only gives you more cost with no benefit 
How do you sell the idea?


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## tpendagast

Hydromaster said:


> When the "trade" is unionized standardization,training and practices will follow.
> 
> These organizations that pop-up like sima are the beginning of the union as their organizing the larger players
> 
> Jmo
> 
> Government interference /regs =
> imore government in your business.
> 
> Hack or no hack​


These tease organizations have come and gone over the years 
Just look at the green industry and how planet/Alca has struggled 
I don't think there's any huge fear of unionizing entrepreneurial services.

Is there a roadside hotdog vendor Union?


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## Hydromaster

tpendagast said:


> These tease organizations have come and gone over the years
> Just look at the green industry and how planet/Alca has struggled
> I don't think there's any huge fear of unionizing entrepreneurial services.
> 
> Is there a roadside hotdog vendor Union?


you're saying something like the department of health overseeing the snow and ice industry?

Like the hotdog vendor has to abide by the department of health regulations ?

Like standards controlling (salt) dust levels?

I just think an organization is going to have a hard time implementing standards and impose if them upon other businesses.

I'm out..

I'll have a hard time regulating Joe Plow with a six pack.


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## BossPlow2010

,



Hydromaster said:


> you're saying something like the department of health overseeing the snow and ice industry?
> 
> Like the hotdog vendor has to abide by the department of health regulations ?
> 
> Like standards controlling (salt) dust levels?
> 
> I just think an organization is going to have a hard time implementing standards and impose if them upon other businesses.
> 
> I'm out..
> 
> I'll have a hard time regulating Joe Plow with a six pack.


If you don't mind me asking, what was your actual occupation keeping water from freezing in below zero temps?


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## tpendagast

Hydromaster said:


> you're saying something like the department of health overseeing the snow and ice industry?
> 
> Like the hotdog vendor has to abide by the department of health regulations ?
> 
> Like standards controlling (salt) dust levels?
> 
> I just think an organization is going to have a hard time implementing standards and impose if them upon other businesses.
> 
> I'm out..
> 
> I'll have a hard time regulating Joe Plow with a six pack.


No

You seemed concerned about unionizing

I said I dont think that's a worry


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## Hydromaster

tpendagast said:


> No
> 
> You seemed concerned about unionizing
> 
> I said I dont think that's a worry


Understood


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## Hydromaster

BossPlow2010 said:


> ,
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, what was your actual occupation keeping water from freezing in below zero temps?


No you can't ,that would be taking this off topic.
Time and place

sorry for interfering


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## BossPlow2010

Hydromaster said:


> No you can't ,that would be taking this off topic.
> Time and place
> 
> sorry for interfering


Too late, I already did
Did your job have standards?


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## Luther

Hydromaster said:


> These organizations that pop-up like sima are the beginning of the union as their organizing the larger players
> 
> Jmo
> ​


SIMA popped up maybe 18 years ago. This industry was completely fragmented prior to this. Just imagine 50,000 tpendagast's out there doing whatever they want with no training or standards. SIMA saw the need to bring some organization and professionalism to it. They have helped the industry become more professional. Contrary to what you think they don't cater to the larger players...they cater to them all. Small and large. The ASCA has a different foundation and cause to the industry. They actually created the industry standards, created ISO 9001 and advocate for the industry through changing the state and federal laws that are unfair to snow and ice contractors.

Unionizing is not part of what they do, or in the cards.


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## Defcon 5

Biggest down fall for the Green-snow industry...Lack of education


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## Ajlawn1

Defcon 5 said:


> Biggest down fall for the Green-snow industry...Lack of education


Huh?


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## Luther

tpendagast said:


> What benefit do you receive from it?
> A sense of elitism?
> You already have that.
> 
> You could be the areas only certified company
> If it only gives you more cost with no benefit
> How do you sell the idea?


They're not trying to sell the idea to anyone. Owners of companies don't really need to be told or sold on wanting and having quality management systems in place in their organizations. The ones who are real serious about their business welcome third party verification. Again, something you won't understand.


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## Luther

BossPlow2010 said:


> ,
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, what was your actual occupation keeping water from freezing in below zero temps?


He's an irrigator BossPlow. They are much smarter than your typical lawn jockeys and landscapers.


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## tpendagast

Luther said:


> SIMA popped up maybe 18 years ago. This industry was completely fragmented prior to this. Just imagine 50,000 tpendagast's out there doing whatever they want with no training or standards. SIMA saw the need to bring some organization and professionalism to it. They have helped the industry become more professional. Contrary to what you think they don't cater to the larger players...they cater to them all. Small and large. The ASCA has a different foundation and cause to the industry. They actually created the industry standards, created ISO 9001 and advocate for the industry through changing the state and federal laws that are unfair to snow and ice contractors.
> 
> Unionizing is not part of what they do, or in the cards.


I didn't say anything about unions 
Other than I didn't see that being a worry

I was a member of sima at its inception
I know all about it

And there still are 50,000 little unorganized snow jockeys running all over like wild children unsupervised 
That had not changed


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## cwren2472

Luther said:


> He's an irrigator


Yeah, I totally agree. Oh, wait, you said irri*G*ator...


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## Luther

tpendagast said:


> And there still are 50,000 little unorganized snow jockeys running all over like wild children unsupervised
> That had not changed


Nor will it. Doesn't take much to enter this industry.


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## BossPlow2010

Luther said:


> He's an irrigator BossPlow. They are much smarter than your typical lawn jockeys and landscapers.


Must've picked the only industry with out any standardizations or certs...
Pardon me while go ensure the big copper thing on the side of my house has the ball valves at 45°


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## tpendagast

Luther said:


> Nor will it. Doesn't take much to enter this industry.


Well that is my point.

If the joining/certification's/membership is voluntary and no one needs to take it or belong to come on in and bid your work out from under you... what is the value? 
Please educate me


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## Mark Oomkes

The answers have gone a bit off topic.

OP asked about being a member and certification and will it help. 

Being a member is worth it if you put time and energy into it. 

IMO (I know Luther disagrees with me) being certified doesn't mean squat. Everyone has certifications nowadays and nobody knows what they mean with the exception of doctors, lawyers and CPAs. 

I can be just as professional and knowledgeable as a Certified Snow Professional. 

I can follow the exact same standards as ISO 9001 SNwhatever and be just as professional as someone who is ISO certified. 

I can and have provided a prime example of a CSP who was anything but ethical in his dealings with his vendors and customers. And went out of business because he priced everything too low. 

The ISO thing is kind of a joke unless you're huge. The cost to become certified, be audited and maintain that certification far exceeds what I pay in liability insurance per year. And not a single customer has asked me if I am a CSP or ISO certified. My largest winter customer is also the largest employer in the West Michigan area. The one ISO certified company that I am aware of in GR isn't even on the bidder's list. I believe a couple of the contractors have one or more CSP's on staff. Not me. But I know snow. And I do it well. Sure, maybe I could go after that Tanger mall that I posted the video of...except I don't want it. Or the new Amazon fulfillment center...don't want that either. Or Amway. Lots of good sized customers in West Michigan that are not using the 1 ISO certified company. 

Oh yeah, I have witnessed that ISO certified company applying salt to pavement with a minimal amount of black ice--actually a heavy frost--even though the customer didn't open to the public until 1000 by which time the sun had melted the frost off and temp was 40°. Or the time they were salting the same lot at 0430 in moderate to heavy snow with approximately 1.5" of snow on the ground. Again, the account doesn't open to the public until 1000 and we ended up with 4-4.5" that needed to be plowed. How does that make that ISO certified company more professional than me...applying salt under the wrong conditions????


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## Mark Oomkes

Rubber City Landscaping said:


> Right now I'm a one man band but Im starting to grow pretty fast and getting ready to take on some employees. if you don't think SIMA is necessary now how big does your company need to be before SIMA becomes beneficial.


Very beneficial if you take advantage of the resources available.


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## Mark Oomkes

That same ISO certified company is still stating they used "customized granular blend" salt. They use Detroit salt on parking lots. Plain and simple. It's blue just like everyone else's. Nothing custom about it. They don't even prewet it. 

They used to be 100% liquid. Still stating they use liquids, except they don't have any liquid trucks anymore. Or maybe just 1.


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## Ajlawn1

The other great thing about SIMA is partying in all the different cities... This is going to become a hot button issue come Spring as there is going to be a monumental kegger on the West side of Meatchickin for SIMA next Summer...


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## tpendagast

Mark pretty much went on a rant about what I already said.
There's no benefit or professionalism to the certification or membership.

ISO 9001 is a Quality/Customer satisfaction certification by the way, It's NOT Snow Specific (no matter what Snow Fighters Institute or SIMA wants to tell you) so it really wouldn't have anything about it that would ever tell you when (or when not to) put salt on a parking lot.


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> Mark pretty much went on a rant


I don't rant...


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> ISO 9001 is a Quality/Customer satisfaction certification by the way, It's NOT Snow Specific (no matter what Snow Fighters Institute or SIMA wants to tell you) so it really wouldn't have anything about it that would ever tell you when (or when not to) put salt on a parking lot.


This is one of those times you're wrong. You're ranting about something you obviously don't know what you're talking about.


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## Mark Oomkes

Ajlawn1 said:


> The other great thing about SIMA is partying in all the different cities... This is going to become a hot button issue come Spring as there is going to be a monumental kegger on the West side of Meatchickin for SIMA next Summer...


Where???


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## John_DeereGreen

Mark Oomkes said:


> Where???


The compound!


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## tpendagast

Mark Oomkes said:


> This is one of those times you're wrong. You're ranting about something you obviously don't know what you're talking about.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9000

The trouble is, you only look at things as they pertain to you, assuming thats the limit of the scope... It's an international thing. Its NOT snow specific.


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## Luther

tpendagast said:


> Mark pretty much went on a rant about what I already said.
> There's no benefit or professionalism to the certification or membership.
> 
> ISO 9001 is a Quality/Customer satisfaction certification by the way, It's NOT Snow Specific (no matter what Snow Fighters Institute or SIMA wants to tell you) so it really wouldn't have anything about it that would ever tell you when (or when not to) put salt on a parking lot.


This is gold. You really have no clue do you.


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## John_DeereGreen




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## tpendagast

heres a list of ISO certified companies... NONE of which are Snow and Ice management companies; several of which are ISO 9001 certified (theres many different categories of ISO)
http://conceptqalabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CQALC_ClientStatus.pdf


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## Mark Oomkes

tpendagast said:


> heres a list of ISO certified companies... NONE of which are Snow and Ice management companies; several of which are ISO 9001 certified (theres many different categories of ISO)
> http://conceptqalabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CQALC_ClientStatus.pdf


Someone want to burst his bubble or do we let him wallow in ignorance?


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## Mike_PS

this thread is about SIMA and whether or not the OP should join and if it would be worth it to him...so, either post to that point or don't post in the thread please


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## Defcon 5

Michael J. Donovan said:


> this thread is about SIMA and whether or not the OP should join and if it would be worth it to him...so, either post to that point or don't post in the thread please


It's a spirited discussion...I don't think any lines have been crossed..It's a discussion about ISO which SIMA and ASCA both endorse


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## Luther

Not true. SIMA has absolutely nothing to do with ISO


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## Defcon 5

Luther said:


> Not true. SIMA has absolutely nothing to do with ISO


Excuse me....I have been confused more than once...Could have sworn I was reading about it in their magazine while I was on the throne ...I'm off to bed to dream about that new Chevy pickup


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## Luther

Most likely it was the snow magazine that you read it. I don’t think I’ve seen SIMA mention anything about ISO since they had nothing to do with it.


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## JMHConstruction

Education is the best thing you can do for your company. Whether it's snow removal, business management, sales, knowledge is key to a successful business.

I don't do enough on my own to justify SIMA. I will say however that this website we are on now has taught me an incredible amount of information. I use it business practices I see on here in my main business, regularly. If I ever went out and got more my own accounts, I would join SIMA in a heartbeat, at least to see what it brings to the table.

I don't think anyone is trying to unionize the industry, but national structure, I think, is a good thing. Why wouldn't you want to learn from a company much larger and more professional than yours. I will tell you that subcontracting for the company I've work with for the last several years has taught me so much more than those I'd worked with in the past. I'm willing to learn from anyone or anything.

Will SIMA directly gain you business? Probably not. I don't think many customers are searching based on what memberships you're apart of. I also don't think SIMA or similar memberships will just put business in your lap. However, the knowledge and professionalism it MAY bring your company could very well help you land more jobs, and be prepared to service them better, and gain referrals from customers.

This is just my opinion. I don't know a great deal about SIMA, but from what I've heard I would at least try it for a year and see what education it provides.


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## Mark Oomkes

@tpendagast

https://www.ascaonline.org/page/iso9001-sn9001/

Specifically for snow contractors.

Back to SIMA. Good organization, not without faults but no one is.


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## Mr.Markus

In don't know much about sima, I know other associations that list me as a member list location,services, phone and web addresses. For customers looking sometimes they end up at an association site, wallow through and find you. I really don't advertise anymore but I do ask the question, " where did you hear about us?" When someone new calls, most of the time they found me on LO or PLCAO.


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