# Just won in small claims :-)



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Well, had a client that refused to pay for additional services last winter.

Skid steer work, extra storm costs -(3 foot blizzard in January.) and two requested applications of sand/salt.

They were pissed at me because I suspended service and refused to plow the last storm in march due to non-payment.

They thought they could pay me anytime they wanted and were always late.
Sent them a invoice in Jan 2015 they didn't pay till March 10th 2015 and that was only the seasonal rate and not the additional work which was $1,700.00

So March 1st I gave them a warning if I was not paid within a few days I was suspending service per the contract. By March 4th no payment and I called and suspended service, March 5th came and we got a 6 inch storm. I didn't plow.

March 10th got the seasonal payment from Jan. But no other payment, tried to get payment thru april and may they kept putting me off and finally told me they were not paying me.

Sued them in Small claims, presented my contract, pictures of work done, etc...

It all boiled down to my contract where it states I have the right to suspend service if payments become more than 7 days late.

Judge ruled in my favor, the client ended up paying over $2,000.00 dollars for late fee's and court costs.

The client tried counter suing me for $1,600.00 saying that is what they paid another company to plow the storm I didn't.

Dismissed by the judge.

Funny thing is before you see the judge, he had us talk to each other and show any evidence we would present and try to settle.

I tried to settle for the amount plus court costs, about $500 less than what I won.

Client refused stating, I don't think so, I'm counter suing you and I'm going to win.

I was strong and knew it but still tried to settle it.

I got the last laugh.

Lesson learned from this.

I will from now on, suspend all service if it gets more than 1 week overdue regardless of how long I have been plowing said client.


----------



## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

Good job. Good luck getting them to actually pay up.


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

k1768;2045863 said:


> Good job. Good luck getting them to actually pay up.


Hotel that just switched to a major name.

If they don't pay, i am going to their corporate office over their heads.

They will pay or suffer a news story about them stiffing a hard working man trying to put his kids thru college by plowing.

And the best part, it's true.

My oldest is in college now, my youngest is graduating this year and starting college.

Don't think they want any of that type of news.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Glad to see the good guy win for a change, its just too bad it had to come to that.


----------



## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

It's good that it's a big corporation. Now that you have a judgement in your favor, the judge can issue an order forcing their bank to give you the money. 
When the big chain took them over, they may have a clause that they are not responsible for any debt under previous ownership though. 
My wife won a judgement on a dead beat and it took forever to get just some of the money as it was a judgement against an individual. She closed up her bank accounts, so we couldn't do that. 

Hope it works out in your favor.

The usual I am not a lawyer, laws may vary in your state/county.


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm glad you won but suspending service after being late 1 week is a little much.


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

JD Dave;2045872 said:


> I'm glad you won but suspending service after being late 1 week is a little much.


bill is sent on the 1st, they have a due date by the 8th.

If they have not paid by the 15th, service is suspended.

Do you rent? 
Rent is due on the 1st, if not paid by the 10th, eviction process starts.

Same premises, why should I or you continue plowing if they have not paid.

I tried working with them as I do with everyone, 
but burn me once, shame on you, 
burn me twice shame on me.

I like to learn from experience and no more nice guy.

I am not paying out of my pocket to plow someone else's property.

This is business and if you don't treat like that then you will be out of business.


----------



## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Congrats!

We suspend service once it gets past 30 days.


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

John_DeereGreen;2045892 said:


> Congrats!
> 
> We suspend service once it gets past 30 days.


The problem is you can be plowing that account at least 5-15 times within 30 days and now they owe you even more.

I used to have it in my contracts as 30 days but switched to the 7 day after the due date, which roughly is 15 days.
Sent on the 1st due by the 8th and suspended on the 15th.

Oh and I send everything via email the last week of the month due on the 1st of the month.

Thankfully this is the first time a client has outright refused to pay for additional services.
And hopefully the last time.

And the kicker is, we don't do it unless the client requests it -(yes they did).


----------



## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

I'm happy to hear you won. You must work for some pretty small companies. It would take longer for the invoice to be received, processed, sent to accounting and have a cheque issued in 7 days from the companies I work for. I begin to sweat at 90 days and I've never not been paid.

Good customers are hard to find, I wouldn't blow 1 off that fast.


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

cet;2045926 said:


> I'm happy to hear you won. You must work for some pretty small companies. It would take longer for the invoice to be received, processed, sent to accounting and have a cheque issued in 7 days from the companies I work for. I begin to sweat at 90 days and I've never not been paid.
> 
> Good customers are hard to find, I wouldn't blow 1 off that fast.


If you not being payed in a timely manner then they are not that good of a customer.

Do they not pay their electric, their gas, their water, their rent, etc... bills on time.

Snow Plowing is no different.

I plow local commercial business and try to stay away from the national chains if I can.

And even the few ones I have plowed for have paid within 30 days.

I have one, I give them invoices on the 1st and I get a check within 2 weeks and this is a large tire/brake/muffler shop all over CT and in other states.

My other one just pays the entire season in November -(over 5k)

And your confusing the time, it is just not 7 days and boom your suspended.

Billing is sent the last week of the previous month, billing for the 1st.

Invoice is payable within 7 or 14 days -(a few of them are like this)

If payment has not been received by the 7th day, a second notice is sent.

If payment has not been received by the 14th day, Suspension of Service is sent.

I have only had to do this twice -(the client I sued) and another one that had a check in hand that night for full payment after I sent them notice service was suspended.


----------



## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

As I said I'm happy you won. We all run our business differently.
You brought up gas hydro water rent. My bills of that nature (there is nothing I rent) all have longer then 7 days due and none would cut you off if you missed the due date by 7 more days.
Here you can't start eviction until rent is missed for 90 days.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Whats funny about this is that it was a Hotel right? You dont see any of their customers going past due by 7-15-30 or 60 days, they get paid before you get your room key.


----------



## Ben C (Oct 28, 2015)

It's good to hear that you managed to win, and will hopefully get paid the judgement amount in a reasonable time frame. I'm working out the math and if I'm doing it right you're giving them up to about 21 or 28 days to pay. ~7 from billing date to 1st, due by 7th (another 7 days so 14 so far, second notice after that due by 14th (another 7 days= 21 days total) then notice of suspending service on the 15th? or on the 21st? Either way, 21/28 days to pay doesn't always work in every circumstance. We stay completely away from national maintenance companies, but still have national chain clients. 

We have some commercial clients that if I get them a bill by Wed I have a check on Friday. We also have others that it's 45 days at very best, sometimes 90 to get paid. It's not that they're bad clients at all, matter of fact some of those are my very best clients that I've done 100's of thousands of dollars worth of work with over the years. It's just that some, especially the larger corporations, have systems that just take time. 

Example: One apartment complex we do a lot of work for that has multiple properties nation wide: I submit bill to local manager, who sends it to her manager, who turns it into accounts payable. Then, 2-4 people in 2 different office locations have to approve it depending on the dollar amount. Then it gets kicked back to accounting to cut a check, which they only do 2x a month. While this whole process could be accomplished in a matter of hours if they were so inclined, that's just not the way it works considering I'm one of hundreds of vendors they have to pay. They always pay. it's just a matter of how long it takes to get it. Now, I know this going in and plan for it, which is my choice.

That said, trying to lump vendor payments into the same category of utility/rent payments for these companies isn't always as cut and dried as you'd think. 

Often times payments for utility bills don't require the separate approval process that is usually required for vendors. 



Sorry for the long post


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

cet;2045949 said:


> As I said I'm happy you won. We all run our business differently.
> You brought up gas hydro water rent. My bills of that nature (there is nothing I rent) all have longer then 7 days due and none would cut you off if you missed the due date by 7 more days.
> Here you can't start eviction until rent is missed for 90 days.


90 days wow, we can start eviction on the 11th day if rent has not been paid.
I would be getting a 3 month security deposit if I owed property there


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2046055 said:


> Whats funny about this is that it was a Hotel right? You dont see any of their customers going past due by 7-15-30 or 60 days, they get paid before you get your room key.


Lol yes you are correct and some hotels put a 100 dollar hold in your credit card


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Ben C;2046081 said:


> It's good to hear that you managed to win, and will hopefully get paid the judgement amount in a reasonable time frame. I'm working out the math and if I'm doing it right you're giving them up to about 21 or 28 days to pay. ~7 from billing date to 1st, due by 7th (another 7 days so 14 so far, second notice after that due by 14th (another 7 days= 21 days total) then notice of suspending service on the 15th? or on the 21st? Either way, 21/28 days to pay doesn't always work in every circumstance. We stay completely away from national maintenance companies, but still have national chain clients.
> 
> We have some commercial clients that if I get them a bill by Wed I have a check on Friday. We also have others that it's 45 days at very best, sometimes 90 to get paid. It's not that they're bad clients at all, matter of fact some of those are my very best clients that I've done 100's of thousands of dollars worth of work with over the years. It's just that some, especially the larger corporations, have systems that just take time.
> 
> ...


Np I like reading long posts.
I know I used to plow for Friendlys and it was a about a 35 day delay in payment.
This was not the case, 4th year plowing them, owner cut the checks.
It all depends on who it is for a client.
Some are not worth it no matter how much money you are making.


----------



## Ben C (Oct 28, 2015)

MSsnowplowing;2046103 said:


> It all depends on who it is for a client.
> Some are not worth it no matter how much money you are making.


That hits the nail on the head.

Probably the most important underlying issue here is that your situation highlights the need for a good written contract, backed up with proper documentation.


----------



## Ben C (Oct 28, 2015)

MSsnowplowing;2045862 said:


> Sued them in Small claims, presented my contract, pictures of work done, etc...
> 
> It all boiled down to my contract where it states I have the right to suspend service if payments become more than 7 days late.


Textbook example of how it should be done.

I'm new to posting on this forum, been reading since last year, but I've been in business for myself one way or another for pushing 20 years. I'm a general contractor, who for some unknown reason I still haven't figured out, decided to get back into plowing last year after getting out several years ago.

Two of the biggest things I harp on for new(er) contractors (not trying to imply you are at all) is using a good contract and fair pricing. A good contract protects you and gets you paid. Fair pricing keeps us all working. Undercutting everyone will only loose you money in the long run.


----------



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Hopefully they pay, I sued a customer and heard every excuse as to why they are late etc. I finally took them to small claims court, they never showed, I won but still haven't collected any money and it's been a year. I'm just going to super glue all the key holes so they can't get in lol then bury them in snow


----------



## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

MSsnowplowing;2046102 said:


> Lol �� yes you are correct and some hotels put a 100 dollar hold in your credit card


Not the Hotels I go to..They charge by the hour..Lol


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Brian Young;2046132 said:


> Hopefully they pay, I sued a customer and heard every excuse as to why they are late etc. I finally took them to small claims court, they never showed, I won but still haven't collected any money and it's been a year. I'm just going to super glue all the key holes so they can't get in lol then bury them in snow


If you have the judgement in your favor and still have no payment you can lien the property.


----------



## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Defcon 5;2046167 said:


> Not the Hotels I go to..They charge by the hour..Lol


Does those hotels pro rate the hour for you?

Or do they make you pay for the last 58 minutes of the hour that you do not use?


----------



## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Congrats on a job well done.

(Sorry, short post)


----------



## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I forgot to add, we have some accounts that dictate payment terms. As long as I know what I'm getting into up front, I'll wait 45-90 days for my money. These are LARGE companies here, either nationwide retail, manufacturing, or food service. I know I'll get paid, it's just got to be done on their terms.

And don't think for a minute that there isn't a percentage of the price added to the initial bid for the privilege of them using our money for 1-3 months. Payment terms 31-60 days it's an additional 3%, 61-90 it's 6%, and anything above 90 it's 10%.


----------



## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Brian Young;2046132 said:


> Hopefully they pay, I sued a customer and heard every excuse as to why they are late etc. I finally took them to small claims court, they never showed, I won but still haven't collected any money and it's been a year. I'm just going to super glue all the key holes so they can't get in lol then bury them in snow


Students are the school my mother works at did this to all the locks as a prank one night.


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Brian Young;2046132 said:


> Hopefully they pay, I sued a customer and heard every excuse as to why they are late etc. I finally took them to small claims court, they never showed, I won but still haven't collected any money and it's been a year. I'm just going to super glue all the key holes so they can't get in lol then bury them in snow


Well Judge gave them till November 24th to pay me.
If they do not then I go back to court and request that the clerk issue an execution. 
An execution authorizes you to hire a state marshal to attach a debtor's wages, nonexempt personal property or a financial institution account.

And guess what, the Hotel gave the Court their bank documents to show they paid me.

So I will get my money one way or another.


----------



## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

MSsnowplowing;2046211 said:


> Well Judge gave them till November 24th to pay me.
> If they do not then I go back to court and request that the clerk issue an execution.
> An execution authorizes you to hire a state marshal to attach a debtor's wages, nonexempt personal property or a financial institution account.
> 
> ...


Good for youThumbs UpThumbs Up

I've been there, the best part was hiring the sheriff to go take the money right out of their account.


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

*Update on what has happened so far*

Well he called over the weekend and offered to pay me $150 dollars a month till it was paid off.
Claiming they were broke.

I told him he could pay me a thousand now and the balance Feb 1st.

He refused and said he would go to court to get payments of $150 a month.

I called the court, as it is a business he will be denied and then I file a attachment and use a marshal who well freeze his bank account until I am paid.

So I called him back and informed him of this and that it would cost him another $200-$300 dollars if he went this route, Yeah still being a nice guy.

He said "I will get payment terms from the court" and refused to entertain the notion he wouldn't.

So on the 25th I am going to the court house and doing this as I know he is not going to pay me.

I will update with what happens.

Everyone have a great Thanksgiving.


----------



## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

.........Thumbs Up


----------



## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

Good luck!


----------



## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Wow...this guy just doesn't learn. Hope everything works out for ya. Hopefully the court reminds him that this isn't a budget car payment and $150/mo is a joke.


----------



## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

I wouldn't be suprised if the court accepts his payment terms or bumps it a little bit. I'd bet it's when he misses a payment that the court will come down on him. Like it or not, he's making an effort.


----------



## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

In Michigan, as long as he's making payment he will be good


----------



## By-The-Lake (Nov 23, 2007)

MSsnowplowing;2046102 said:


> Lol �� yes you are correct and some hotels put a 100 dollar hold in your credit card


Good call. I added a similar clause to my contract this year and will suspend service after 30 days after having similar issues with a motel last year. They were so erratic with payment and varried anywhere from 1 month to 1.5 months late with last payment. Stories/payments varied from getting a cheque cut immediately, to having to wait for accountant to send it to them, to having to wait for the accountant to mail it to me directly. I had the payment dates on the contract which they signed. If they had told me that they needed an extra 30 days in the beginning, I would have had different expectations. And in the end I was told that I was unprofessional for politely and humbly asking to be paid and that they wouldn't be using my services next year due to this. They did pay in full with last payment being 1 1/2 months late. Funny thing is that they called me for service again this year but I told them I would be happy to provide service for their property again but this time I would need post-dated cheques. Haven't heard from them again since that and had the good luck to replace their account with one that brings in twice the revenue.  It will be interesting to see how they make out with their new contractor - wishing them Montezuma's revenge!

I sincerely hope you get what is due and have some control of the situation (that is a comfort). We work hard for our clients to get paid, not for the aggravation and drama.


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

Update:

I really need to stop being a nice guy.

The owner cried really and I ended up agreeing to a payment plan.
$1,000 down -(got it today) and in January the remaining balance.

I was torn whether or not I should, but at least I got a $1,000 so I figure the worse case is I end up in Jan. going to the court to get the balance due.

We shall see. 

Really good news, I just landed a 30 to 50 k a year contract.

It's per storm but at 3k a plow on just 3" storm, I prefer seasonal but hey I will take this one. 

We average anywhere from 10 to 15 storms a season so I should be good to go and it is not for a national.

Everyone have a Merry Christmas and I will update this in Jan.


----------



## shep28 (Jan 1, 2010)

I had an issue like this. Sued. Won. They used a million tactics to delay payment. Had a lawyer friend check her bank accounts for funds. Always get them to pay with a check, so you have this info. in case you need to sweep their accounts. 

The little weasel moved her funds.

Lawyer called her into a meeting at court to reveal her assets and ask questions. If she didn't show a bench warrant would be issued.

She showed and the lawyer put her on a payment plan with a down payment.

I lost a little in lawyer fees, but I am getting something.

Moral- Get to know a lawyer if you have a business!


----------



## PlowWowD (Dec 6, 2015)

MSsnowplowing;2045862 said:


> Well, had a client that refused to pay for additional services last winter.
> 
> Skid steer work, extra storm costs -(3 foot blizzard in January.) and two requested applications of sand/salt.
> 
> ...


Oh how i love happy endings of these type of stories... he presented nothing but a laugh to the judge.. defendants like this seriously have it in there heads (just because they are defendants) they honestly believe their viewed as sympathetic innocent victim.. when in reality they have the I'Q's of pubic hairs.. great job my man.. glad you took their ass right to court... only thing is.. screw trying to settle with these types once the court dates are inked.. that $500.00 comes in handy being time & aggravation dealing with stiff's... forget them... yet gj


----------

