# Unlimited plowing



## Jaysled

Guys take a look at this site....What do you guys think?? How do you make money with this pricing...volume?? http://nationalplowing.com/become-a-subcontractor


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## Banksy

$60 bucks to plow one driveway an unlimited amount of times per month? Are they ******g serious? 

I'm sure these guys don't have a single plow. They are a middle man who collects $130 for the driveway, they keep $70, and pay you $60 for the month with unlimited plows every 2 inches. I can't even see low ballers biting on that. 

I wonder if this business would interest the IRS about the whole independent contractor thing.


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## Plow man Foster

There is a guy around here going for $125 a season Unlimited pushes, Front walk, In front of the garage and salt by request 6 times a season. My customers ask me if i can beat that price and i say "NO!" I dont say anything about him all i say is just know when your sub is plowed (by me!) and your driveway hasnt been touched ONCE during a 5+ inch storm yet you'll know why. Its because you're going to be number 500 on his list. 

These guys just dont get it! First off you're working for 1/(3) Or 4th the "normal" price. 
You have plenty of volume but you're working you @$$ off for less money! 
After you pay for Labor, maintenance, and other fees you're Left with NOTHING! 
In some cases they are paying the customer for them to plow their driveway!


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## buckwheat_la

we do drives starting at $65/month for unlimited removals including walks, but most of our drives are 40x20 type drives, and we do them by hand. And just to give you guys a heads, we make pretty great money at it.


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## WIPensFan

buckwheat_la;1320346 said:


> we do drives starting at $65/month for unlimited removals including walks, but most of our drives are 40x20 type drives, and we do them by hand. And just to give you guys a heads, we make pretty great money at it.


What? No disrespect Buckwheat, but that's crazy talk. Explanation please.


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## kevlars

buckwheat_la;1320346 said:


> we do drives starting at $65/month for unlimited removals including walks, but most of our drives are 40x20 type drives, and we do them by hand. And just to give you guys a heads, we make pretty great money at it.


$65/month? Is that billed 12 months a year???:laughing: No, seriously, what months do you charge for?

kevlars


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## buckwheat_la

we bill $60-$100 per month (depending on the size of place) from November to March, and charge a half price for October and April if we get snow in those months, we average 5 times/days a month doing snowfalls over 2 inches. I send out 2 man crews, usually with shovels and blowers. My crews can do 6-8 places a hour average. Now the important part about this is that it gives me a secure monthly income. Most of my larger commercial, and condo units are done on the hour or per time, so even if we have a bad month, we have to have more then 10 times done before I start losing money on residential, in the meantime, my commercial and condos are making me great money, so I still make great money. This model may not work for everyone, but either way it is a win for me. If we get little to no snow, we still make good money on residentials, if we have a heavy snow month, we make money on are large stuff. I am going to offer a example of last Novemeber, although I don't normally share numbers. 

Last November we lost money on residentials, about $3000 in wages. Profit (this is after expenses) on all my heavy stuff, $40 000. Now lets take a month where we don't have any snow, we make $11 000 which is more then enough to pay guys and overhead bills for my buisness, even if we don't do one bit of snow.


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## RLM

Everyone has different business models & different ways of looking at things. If you search on residential drives you will find this. Combine this with different market pricing, amount of competion, value of a dollar in different markets, etc.


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## grandview

It's not a bad price for a seasonal contract. 650.00 for the season.


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## Neige

grandview;1320383 said:


> It's not a bad price for a seasonal contract. 650.00 for the season.


Thats what I was thinking, hey GV how would like to do business like this NSP and make $350 for the season. Have no equipment, office labor only, 0 capital investment, 0 fuel, 0 repairs and 0 risk. I think these guys are onto something.
Thats $40 more than I make off my seasonal contracts, and I have the same office costs as them, then I have the capital investment of equipment, the labor, fuel, repairs to equipment and property, the staking, and all the risk.


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## Brian Young

Jaysled;1320294 said:


> Guys take a look at this site....What do you guys think?? How do you make money with this pricing...volume?? http://nationalplowing.com/become-a-subcontractor


Def. volume. We are looking into monthly billing next season instead of the traditional seasonal one time bill. There's going to be months where you eat it big time and months where you make out. But for 60 bucks they better be tiny, single car driveways. Again, pricing is so all over the place it's tough to say if it's a good price or not.


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## Neige

Brian Young;1320435 said:


> Def. volume. We are looking into monthly billing next season instead of the traditional seasonal one time bill. There's going to be months where you eat it big time and months where you make out. But for 60 bucks they better be tiny, single car driveways. Again, pricing is so all over the place it's tough to say if it's a good price or not.


I am curious Brian, why go for monthly billing instead of a one time bill? If we were to go that way we would just increase our office work by 6 times. Once you go to monthly billing will the client have the option not to take November and April, leaving them only 4 months of service to pay for? One of the greatest lessons I learned from SIMA at a snack and chat was to charge my clients up front, like a retainer fee. Today is the last day my clients can receive a 5% discount for paying up front the total amount. Its our Thanksgiving today so it may take up to Thursday before all the mailed checks will be in at the office. The last 3 years we would have around 60% of our clients take advantage of this rebate. As of last Friday we had 1695, so its looking good to hit our target number again this year.


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## Jaysled

Sorry Guys, I thought those were seasonal rates, I jumped the gun to quick. I found a local guy with a similar web site and got the two confused here is the one I wanted to post. http://rochester-snow-plowing.com/ Check out the seasonal rates.

GV and RLM, since you guys are local what are your opions of the $200.00 Unlimited rates?? I have spoke with a few potential new customers and that is what people want?? I personally think that is way to low. RLM I have seen some posts about you purchasing a tractor with an blower is your plan to charge a permium for that type of service?? Sorry forall the questions thanks!

BTY the monthly billing looks pretty attractive the only think is if we have a low snow winter with no snow people may not pay the bill?


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## Neige

Jaysled;1320453 said:


> Sorry Guys, I thought those were seasonal rates, I jumped the gun to quick. I found a local guy with a similar web site and got the two confused here is the one I wanted to post. http://rochester-snow-plowing.com/ Check out the seasonal rates.
> 
> GV and RLM, since you guys are local what are your opions of the $200.00 Unlimited rates?? I have spoke with a few potential new customers and that is what people want?? I personally think that is way to low. RLM I have seen some posts about you purchasing a tractor with an blower is your plan to charge a permium for that type of service?? Sorry forall the questions thanks!
> 
> BTY the monthly billing looks pretty attractive the only think is if we have a low snow winter with no snow people may not pay the bill?


That is the number one reason we have pay up front for the season. No chasing money, changing routes mid season, just way to big a PITA. Really for most areas is asking to pay up front $300 for the season unreasonable? Not much risk if you ask me for the client.


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## WIPensFan

buckwheat_la;1320372 said:


> we bill $60-$100 per month (depending on the size of place) from November to March, and charge a half price for October and April if we get snow in those months, we average 5 times/days a month doing snowfalls over 2 inches. I send out 2 man crews, usually with shovels and blowers. My crews can do 6-8 places a hour average. Now the important part about this is that it gives me a secure monthly income. Most of my larger commercial, and condo units are done on the hour or per time, so even if we have a bad month, we have to have more then 10 times done before I start losing money on residential, in the meantime, my commercial and condos are making me great money, so I still make great money. This model may not work for everyone, but either way it is a win for me. If we get little to no snow, we still make good money on residentials, if we have a heavy snow month, we make money on are large stuff. I am going to offer a example of last Novemeber, although I don't normally share numbers.
> 
> Last November we lost money on residentials, about $3000 in wages. Profit (this is after expenses) on all my heavy stuff, $40 000. Now lets take a month where we don't have any snow, we make $11 000 which is more then enough to pay guys and overhead bills for my buisness, even if we don't do one bit of snow.


Buckwheat, thanks for explaining.

I guess the biggest obsticle around my area are city sidewalks and or walks from the drives to the front door at almost every residence. Most customers want everything done, drives and walks. I know some of the larger landscape firms have tried the "Drive only" approach to snow removal with reguards to residential but it hasn't worked out.

Once you throw walks into the mix, you can forget about volume. I can honestly say I don't have the answers for these low price seasonal tactics.


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## Brian Young

WIPensFan;1320493 said:


> Buckwheat, thanks for explaining.
> 
> I guess the biggest obsticle around my area are city sidewalks and or walks from the drives to the front door at almost every residence. Most customers want everything done, drives and walks. I know some of the larger landscape firms have tried the "Drive only" approach to snow removal with reguards to residential but it hasn't worked out.
> 
> Once you throw walks into the mix, you can forget about volume. I can honestly say I don't have the answers for these low price seasonal tactics.


I agree 100%, once you add in sidewalks forget it! We have several accounts in an area where there are very few sidewalks and we can bang out 15-18 driveways in about 45 minutes but we added a few with sidewalks, not even full sidewalks just walkways from the drive to the front door and those 3 or 4 accounts added about 15-20 more minutes just in shoveling onto the route plus everyone complained they had to get out of their truck. I think you have to have most accounts with walks and hire a sidewalk guy or no walks at all.


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## buckwheat_la

WIPensFan;1320493 said:


> Buckwheat, thanks for explaining.
> 
> I guess the biggest obsticle around my area are city sidewalks and or walks from the drives to the front door at almost every residence. Most customers want everything done, drives and walks. I know some of the larger landscape firms have tried the "Drive only" approach to snow removal with reguards to residential but it hasn't worked out.
> 
> Once you throw walks into the mix, you can forget about volume. I can honestly say I don't have the answers for these low price seasonal tactics.


We actually do front sidewalks with this pricing too. To give a example

Front of house, walkways front and back, no driveway or very small driveway $60

Front of house, walkways front and back, single driveway $75

Front of house, walkways front and back, double driveway $90

Front of house, walkways front and back, large double driveway or corner lot $110+

We have fairly tight routes, and average about 6-8 places in a hour hand shovelling them, that works out to approximately $80/hour on average that a 2 man group is making me, that is $40/employee. The average employee is making $15/hour, and plus insurance etc, my break even with employees is $20/hour, before I start losing money on them, so that is 10 events. But like I said before at that point my per hour/per push stuff is making me so much money, I can afford to lose a little on hand shoveling residential. And as a whole over a entire winter I always make money.


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## WIPensFan

buckwheat_la;1320513 said:


> We actually do front sidewalks with this pricing too. To give a example
> 
> Front of house, walkways front and back, no driveway or very small driveway $60
> 
> Front of house, walkways front and back, single driveway $75
> 
> Front of house, walkways front and back, double driveway $90
> 
> Front of house, walkways front and back, large double driveway or corner lot $110+
> 
> We have fairly tight routes, and average about 6-8 places in a hour hand shovelling them, that works out to approximately $80/hour on average that a 2 man group is making me, that is $40/employee. The average employee is making $15/hour, and plus insurance etc, my break even with employees is $20/hour, before I start losing money on them, so that is 10 events. But like I said before at that point my per hour/per push stuff is making me so much money, I can afford to lose a little on hand shoveling residential. And as a whole over a entire winter I always make money.


You are working really cheap, but as you say, overall you make money. I make about $100.00/Hr on each employee for residential, but I'm sure I have less accounts than you. Also, my number goes up at 4", 7", and 10". My costs go up as well, but not significantly. I pay the same wages/Hr that you do - ($15-17/Hr).

Interesting how things work for different people in different areas. I know one thing, these services should be worth more than they are!


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## Neige

WIPensFan;1320557 said:


> You are working really cheap, but as you say, overall you make money. I make about $100.00/Hr on each employee for residential, but I'm sure I have less accounts than you. Also, my number goes up at 4", 7", and 10". My costs go up as well, but not significantly. I pay the same wages/Hr that you do - ($15-17/Hr).
> 
> Interesting how things work for different people in different areas. I know one thing, these services should be worth more than they are!


When you say $100/hr does that include them using some kind of piece of equipment.


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## WIPensFan

Neige;1320600 said:


> When you say $100/hr does that include them using some kind of piece of equipment.


Yes, truck with front and back plow, snow blower for walks and shovels.


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## buckwheat_la

WIPensFan;1320602 said:


> Yes, truck with front and back plow, snow blower for walks and shovels.


My guys are using plastic shovels


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## WIPensFan

buckwheat_la;1320627 said:


> My guys are using plastic shovels[/QUOT
> 
> Why?
> 
> You said, "I send out 2 man crews, usually with shovels and blowers"


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## grandview

I think Rochester is has real low seasonal prices for the last few years. On the 1 st website I do like how it's set up,no tire kicking ,it's either you buy now or call someone else for a lower price. You don't need to waste your time doing free estimates.


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## RLM

Grandview the commercial rates are horrible more so than the residentials, I have been lucky thus far, but every year seems like someone thinks they know more than those of us who have been there done it. While technology has increased production it comes with increased costs. We have been very fortunate to be doing as well as we are, continuing to grow even, the next couple seasons I really need to slow the growth, & pay down some debt due to the rapid growth. I have a new project we are starting as an experiment this season, if it goes well, in two years I will need all the capital I can get when I rollout out full scale.


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## MikeRi24

Jaysled;1320453 said:


> Sorry Guys, I thought those were seasonal rates, I jumped the gun to quick. I found a local guy with a similar web site and got the two confused here is the one I wanted to post. http://rochester-snow-plowing.com/ Check out the seasonal rates.
> 
> GV and RLM, since you guys are local what are your opions of the $200.00 Unlimited rates?? I have spoke with a few potential new customers and that is what people want?? I personally think that is way to low. RLM I have seen some posts about you purchasing a tractor with an blower is your plan to charge a permium for that type of service?? Sorry forall the questions thanks!
> 
> BTY the monthly billing looks pretty attractive the only think is if we have a low snow winter with no snow people may not pay the bill?


Guess I'm kinda "local" so I'll chime in....

The last couple years I have noticed that anyone will put a plow on anything and charge next to nothing to plow a driveway just because. Its getting worse and worse by the year. I was talking to an old friend of mine, he used to do landscaping/plowing in the neighborhood back in the 90s, and I'd always watch him mow and plow (my running joke is when he's at my shop I say "see all thins?? You're responsible for all of it!!" haha) anyway we were talking and he was telling me what he was getting to plow driveways back in like '94-'95 and my jaw almost hit the floor because its almost double what it is now, and somehow truck have doubled in price, fuel has doubled in price and I would guess labor as well, but somehow the price of the service is going down. Doesnt make any sense to me, but you almost HAVE to keep under-cutting these people just to stay afloat! And you can't blame the customers to some extent, because if snow plower ABC will plow the driveway for $200 for the season, and he has insurance, shows up, and does a good job then why should they pay snow plower XYZ $400 for the same thing? Unfortunately, in this day and age, thats what it's come to.


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## buckwheat_la

WIPensFan;1320655 said:


> buckwheat_la;1320627 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My guys are using plastic shovels[/QUOT
> 
> Why?
> 
> You said, "I send out 2 man crews, usually with shovels and blowers"
> 
> 
> 
> The blower usually only comes out when there is more then 4inches, by the time you unload the blower, usually 2 people can already have the place done with shovels.
Click to expand...


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## Jaysled

Has anyone in the past tried to start a local "plow association"? You could have a local SIMA sponsored organization that would meet on a monthly basis and educated local snow companies how maximize profits. If we work together then we may be able to bring the profession back up to a profitable level for everyone. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this? Just an Idea.


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## Brian Young

Jaysled;1320834 said:


> Has anyone in the past tried to start a local "plow association"? You could have a local SIMA sponsored organization that would meet on a monthly basis and educated local snow companies how maximize profits. If we work together then we may be able to bring the profession back up to a profitable level for everyone. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this? Just an Idea.


It's a great thought. I think until they start cracking down on this and the lawn care industry, nothing is going to change except the prices going lower and lower. Our neighbor has "a guy" (and his significant other) mow her lawn for 15 bucks. It takes them literally 30-40 minutes to mow, edge, string trim and clean up.....for 15 bucks. We're not dealing with the smartest apples out of the bunch!


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## vegaman04

Its only going to get worse imo.


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## CS-LAWNSERVICE

Brian Young;1320886 said:


> It's a great thought. I think until they start cracking down on this and the lawn care industry, nothing is going to change except the prices going lower and lower. Our neighbor has "a guy" (and his significant other) mow her lawn for 15 bucks. It takes them literally 30-40 minutes to mow, edge, string trim and clean up.....for 15 bucks. We're not dealing with the smartest apples out of the bunch!


and I thought I was low on lawn care at 60 an hour

But then I have insurance on the business and commercial insurance on the truck and trailer


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## Remstar

Relax guys, Any industry without barriers to entry has this problem, believe it or not. Just do what you do, search out the cream of the crop customers, and leave the Crap for everyone else. If you focused your efforts on marketing the service, then selling it, you can win this battle. Think to yourself "what is my Unique Selling Proposition. Find the answer asking yourself this=

"Why should the client do business with you over each and every other option?"

If you can't think of a reason here.... Maybe you are too expensive.

In my limited experience, The going rate is the going out of business rate. Don't try to compete based on price, You WILL LOSE. How can you possibly compete with the smiths kid who will come shovel the walk for a cup of coco?

Anyways, long story short here, you need to find the value in your operation, and base the price you present to your clients upon that. Forget what the idiot across the street is doing, If you benchmark yourself against him, suddenly there are just 2 idiots on a street. People won't know the difference if you present the same price, or likewise if you present a high price and dont show them the value in paying more.


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## Neige

Jaysled;1320834 said:


> Has anyone in the past tried to start a local "plow association"? You could have a local SIMA sponsored organization that would meet on a monthly basis and educated local snow companies how maximize profits. If we work together then we may be able to bring the profession back up to a profitable level for everyone. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this? Just an Idea.


I tried here in Quebec, it did not work. Guys do not trust each other, some share lots and are taken advantage of, others just sit there, listen and then leave and use what they learned against those who are trying to help fix the industry. Then you have to be very careful that you are not accused of price fixing. I believe it works on a national scale, but locally its just to sensitive, and dangerous for those trying to help fix it. I have been told I share way to much on this site. There may come a time when I notice more people from my market on this site, who may be direct competitors, and I will have to clam up. Maybe its already to late, time will tell.


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## Jaysled

Remstar...well said. You do need to stand out from the crowd and take a different approach. I have been implementing alot of value added services into my plan and so far it is has worked well. The thing that gets me is that alot of guys could charge more and make more money and don't even realize it. It makes me crazy that they keep banging there head into a wall and bringing down the industry. So how do we get the message across to more snow people that they don't have to compete on price and price alone????


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## Jaysled

Paul,

Some good points, the price fixing thing did come across my mind. However if you could show these guys what the real cost of doing business that may help them raise the pricing. 

What if you formed a club instead of an association. Something like a snowmobile club, I'm wondering if that would change the dynamics. I could see the whole job sharing thing working against others, but maybe that doesn't have to be shared. Maybe we can focus on basic business practices instead?? Theses are just ideas that I have been kicking around in my head.


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## asps4u

There are no two companies that have the exact same costs, so therefore you could never get a "standardized" pricing structure . So the idea of educating others on how to price jobs is good only to the point of teaching them to know their costs and basing their prices from there.

Now for arguments sake only...if my break even point is $35/hour per truck, and your break even point is $75/hour per truck, I can charge much less for a job and still be a lot more profitable than you can. Can you say that I'm driving down market rates? Maybe. Can you say I'm a lowballer? Sure. You can say anything you want, but that doesn't make either statement true. Yet, I'm the one laughing all the way to the bank with a good profit, and many happy customers that will return year after year because they saved money while still receiving good service for me. I knew my costs ahead of time, based my pricing off of that and made a good profit without over inflating my price just because "that's what the others in my market say I should charge". 

I agree that prices are ridiculously low in most, if not all areas. And I'm one who does complain about it because it makes me so angry, but I also know there is nothing I can do to stop it, so if I want to stay in this industry, I have to adjust my business accordingly. Unfortunately, this is a price driven industry from most customer's perspectives. You can't worry about what all the other companies are doing, you can only worry about what is in your control. Keep your costs down as best you can and provide the best service that you can. Communicate with all your clients, and potential clients, and make sure that their needs are always being met, and that they are happy with the service that you are providing.


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## Jaysled

Asps...I like your perspective and your taste in trucks sweet set up. I hear what you are saying and it makes sense but I have to believe that there are alot of guys out there that have no idea what their cost of doing business is and just beat the next guy by 20 bucks just to get the job. Like you this is the stuff that drives me nuts. 

So while I don't think I can change the whole plowing industry I don't want to just throw my hands up in the air and say I cannot do anything about it...and that is the way it is. That is bull, we need to come together as an industry and bring our standard back up to par. How do we do that.......IDK but I have to think we can take small steps to achieve that goal. Thanks


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## asps4u

I agree, however anyone can get into this industry with minimal start up costs, and no business sense. Many would rather just turn dollars to feel like they have a successful business than sit down and figure out what their true profit margins are and actually make money. There are many businesses like this, and a good majority have no idea how to run a successful business, but they all want to be an "entrepreneur". I like to refer to it as a disease called owneritis, they like to sit at the bar with their friends and say "I own my own business", yet they fail to realize that what they own is nothing but a name. 

This is where sites like plowsite, and organizations like SIMA, help to educate people on what running a snow business is all about, and different ways to be more efficient that you may not realize on your own. For example, I've turned my nose up at residential accounts for many years because they just didn't seem worth the hassle, but when I came on here and saw an operation like Neige runs, it gave me a whole different perspective on how to tap into the residential market, and be not only extremely efficient, but very profitable as well. Before seeing the way his operation handles resi's, I never would have thought about using the tractor/blower set ups, but better efficiency, equals more production, equals more profit, and it is something I would want to look into for the future. But back to my original point, you really can't help people that don't want to help themselves.


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## Plow man Foster

asps4u;1321603 said:


> For example, I've turned my nose up at residential accounts for many years because they just didn't seem worth the hassle, but when I came on here and saw an operation like Neige runs, it gave me a whole different perspective on how to tap into the residential market, and be not only extremely efficient, but very profitable as well..


There's a guy over here by us who is doing the same thing...Only difference is hes doing driveways for close to nothing, He cant efficiently do the amount of driveways that he takes on. So while Everyone else is Cleaning up their accounts, hes still pushing his driveways for the first time.

I honestly dont understand why people go with him if he cant efficiently get their driveway done. It must be the killer price. Thankfully i have gotten back my customers who have Attempted to use him. I have lost alot of accounts this year to him though.


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## swtiih

Neige;1320417 said:


> Thats what I was thinking, hey GV how would like to do business like this NSP and make $350 for the season. Have no equipment, office labor only, 0 capital investment, 0 fuel, 0 repairs and 0 risk. I think these guys are onto something.
> Thats $40 more than I make off my seasonal contracts, and I have the same office costs as them, then I have the capital investment of equipment, the labor, fuel, repairs to equipment and property, the staking, and all the risk.


Yea and your office can consist of a cell phone and lawn chiar on the beach


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## swtiih

I think I will call and sign them up for my house.


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## Wayne Volz

buckwheat_la;1320513 said:


> We actually do front sidewalks with this pricing too. To give a example
> 
> The average employee is making $15/hour, and plus insurance etc, my break even with employees is $20/hour.


With all respect intended, with $15 pay rate, plus insurance how can the break-even point be $20. I don't see any consideration for taxes or mandatory expenses. Maybe you are right, I just don't understand.


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## Remstar

I agree,Sorry buck you live by me, I know what your burden is here in alberta. Your burden alone break even sets you at 20/hr on a 15/hr guy. You need to sit down, and add into those numbers the costs assosiated with running your buisness(marketing,fuel,phone,utilitis,rent) and the cost to replace all your equipment every couple years. you operate out of your garage there is a expense there.


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## buckwheat_la

Wayne Volz;1322697 said:


> With all respect intended, with $15 pay rate, plus insurance how can the break-even point be $20. I don't see any consideration for taxes or mandatory expenses. Maybe you are right, I just don't understand.





Remstar;1322794 said:


> I agree,Sorry buck you live by me, I know what your burden is here in alberta. Your burden alone break even sets you at 20/hr on a 15/hr guy. You need to sit down, and add into those numbers the costs assosiated with running your buisness(marketing,fuel,phone,utilitis,rent) and the cost to replace all your equipment every couple years. you operate out of your garage there is a expense there.


I was going to post a whole explanation here on these two posts, but I have changed my mind. I may choose at a later date to address this, but I would ask both of you to read through my previous posts on here, the $20/hour as a break away point is for my employees only. When a piece of equipment is being used it incures a different break even cost because every piece of equipment has different costs associated with it.


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## buckwheat_la

Remstar, where abouts are you from?


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## Wayne Volz

*buckwheat*

I understand what you are saying completely about equipment cost being separate.

I know that any employees that I pay $15 base rate plus any kind of insurance there is no way with our mandatory taxes, work. comp., etc there is no way our break-even is anywhere close to $20.00. I'm good with your numbers if you are. You seem to know what's going on.

Have a great winter.


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## keypunch

buckwheat_la;1320513 said:


> I can afford to lose a little on hand shoveling residential. And as a whole over a entire winter I always make money.


I tried to think of a way to comment on this politely (we are Canadian after all), but I couldn't come up with anything.

Pretty much you are PAYING people to shovel their walks.... Interesting business strategy. Why don't you just dump the resi, and let someone else make some money on it.


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## buckwheat_la

keypunch;1336613 said:


> I tried to think of a way to comment on this politely (we are Canadian after all), but I couldn't come up with anything.
> 
> Pretty much you are PAYING people to shovel their walks.... Interesting business strategy. Why don't you just dump the resi, and let someone else make some money on it.


Umm,you might want to read the entire thread, what i am saying is that for the one month you may lose money, you make great money on the months that you have no snow. I also have the added security of a monthly income. And on the odd month that there was a lot of snow ( over 10 times in a month), i make great money on my per time contracts anyways


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## keypunch

I misread, my bad.


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## buckwheat_la

hey keypunch, where abouts from Canada are you from?


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## keypunch

buckwheat_la;1336647 said:


> hey keypunch, where abouts from Canada are you from?


To the east of you in SK.


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## keypunch

Hey I'm curious, in your system what do the employees get if there is no snow?


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## buckwheat_la

There is pretty much a guarantee of 100hrs work for all full time employees. The nice part is we do a variety of work including construction, so we have lots of work we turn down monthly, so on a slow month we can always find work hours for the guys, and even if they don't make much profit doing that construction, the business maintains its profit margin with the snow contracts


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

What kind of construction jobs? I'm looking for a way to help pay for our salaried employees when it's not snowing. We are looking at the leanest snowfall year I've ever seen in MB and I'm starving! We have pretty substantial fixed monthly contracts, but need to get at least 3-4 2"+ events per month with our hourly's to break even for the month.
Last year's snow was record High levels killing us on the fixed contracts and this year is record low snow is making no money on the hourly customers. My salaries paid out per month are higher than our fixed contracts, but this has never been a problem until a year with literally no snow. Our fixed contracts are full service shovel routes totaling 400+ residential/commercial units and parking lots are mostly hourly with some per push @ around 70 contracts total. Our hourly earning fleet is 6 plow trucks, 2 loaders, 2 wheeled skidsteers, 2 track skidsteers, 1 sandtruck, and 2 dump trucks. Some of the heavy equipment helps the shovellers during the daytime. When all the iron rolls, the dollars are good. 5 shovel crews on the residential side. Our salaried employees are landscape foremen in the summer and office staff and I can't afford to let them go. All the rest are laborers and equipment operators being paid hourly as a variable expense only when it snows.


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## JunkFood331

I know this is an older thread but here's my two cents:
I agree with Jaysled it would be nice to see a club or something. I know when I started a decade ago I didn't have a clue what to charge. I looked and asked locally to try to find out what the average was but no one would say. So my first years were rough I ended up basing the price off of what I charged for mechanical repair. I didn't want to earn the rep as the cheap a$$, cause I know and have seen what it does in the automotive field. I value my work a lot. With that being said I love the idea but the question is how can we do it? Every one would have to put their ego's, cut throat attitudes, aside and come together to make it better for everyone. I understand now why no one would help or give any insite a decade ago but I must have been one of the few that didn't want to low ball everyone and charge an honest price. I'll say this site is awesome and it's great to see other people perspective.


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## jschmitz93

Reading this thread has got me thinking that my small business might not be operating the best. Is there any where that I can go to help me put a plan into place. To help me figure out the whats whys and hows. You guys put out alot of info here and if I were asked I wouldnt know the answer to most of these questions.

Most of my work is sub work, so I dont have alot of control over pricing but I do have some of my own accounts and I tend to bid on the high side because right now it is just me plowing and I work a full time 40 a week job on top of any snow that we might get. So if I am going to do the work I want to get compensated for it.

Any way any ides appreciated.

Thanks


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## grandview

Here's the cheesy way. If your doing driveways have a friend/relative call a couple of places for an estimate and see were they are at in pricing. Then you can see if your pricing is out of line.


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## snow patrol

grandview;1421114 said:


> Here's the cheesy way. If your doing driveways have a friend/relative call a couple of places for an estimate and see were they are at in pricing. Then you can see if your pricing is out of line.


The beauty of simplicity.


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## Remstar

Even better, call yourself so you can ask anything you want. There is no harm in "asking a question". For some reason there seems to be a big taboo on people sharing what they charge.

Why? Whats the big secret. Can you imagine walking into a grocery store and there being no posted prices, what about the lube shop or the Sandwich shop. Everyone knows you can get a burger for 1.39 over at Mc-D's.... does that stop other competitors for selling burgers for $3.00, or better yet does that stop customers from purchasing hamburgers @ $3.00? NO! 


People rarely decide or make decisions based solely on price, unless you give them no other choice.

A recent personal experience for me was getting sold AMSoil. Now I am very price sensitive....but it was presented to me as a better product. Heres something I buy time and time again usually based on price (oil) but i just happened to stumble into a direct sell situation (a rep came a knocking), and was able to sway me out of my usually buyers disposition to choose the cheapest oil on the shelf. Is it really better?. The only thing I know for sure is that its more expensive!

For me this is just another example of how each and every industry really comes down to the importance differentiating yourself from your competitors, even if it means just using a fancy logo to represent yourself as "professional".


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## Jaysled

JunkFood331;1420974 said:


> I know this is an older thread but here's my two cents:
> I agree with Jaysled it would be nice to see a club or something. I know when I started a decade ago I didn't have a clue what to charge. I looked and asked locally to try to find out what the average was but no one would say. So my first years were rough I ended up basing the price off of what I charged for mechanical repair. I didn't want to earn the rep as the cheap a$$, cause I know and have seen what it does in the automotive field. I value my work a lot. With that being said I love the idea but the question is how can we do it? Every one would have to put their ego's, cut throat attitudes, aside and come together to make it better for everyone. I understand now why no one would help or give any insite a decade ago but I must have been one of the few that didn't want to low ball everyone and charge an honest price. I'll say this site is awesome and it's great to see other people perspective.


Junk I was thinking about this club idea just the other day. I was driving down the road and saw this sign uhgggggg!!


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## Remstar

idk but judging from the size of those snow piles that guy is making a killing at 125 for unlimited plowing....


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## grandview

Jaysled;1422963 said:


> Junk I was thinking about this club idea just the other day. I was driving down the road and saw this sign uhgggggg!!


Move a few numbers around to boost up the price in your area!


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## jschmitz93

grandview;1421114 said:


> Here's the cheesy way. If your doing driveways have a friend/relative call a couple of places for an estimate and see were they are at in pricing. Then you can see if your pricing is out of line.


I'm not so much concerned with my pricing. I know what some guys are charging and what I would like to charge.

This issue is I got a call 3 years ago from a friend of mine saying go get a truck and a plow and I have some work for you. So I did. And slowly I have added a couple of accounts and now sub for him and another contractor. My issue is that I would like to be a bit better on the business front. As far as being able to know what I need to make per hour to actually make money. I have invested a lot of money into my truck and havent shown a profit in my first two years. I have no business plan and feel like I'm just kinda spinning my wheels as an owner. I was just wondering where if there was some place to look that would have info on turning that around?


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## Jaysled

grandview;1423250 said:


> Move a few numbers around to boost up the price in your area!


Grand I like that idea!! LOL. Maybe he will give me a commission for increasing his sales.


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## Jaysled

jschmitz93;1423263 said:


> I'm not so much concerned with my pricing. I know what some guys are charging and what I would like to charge.
> 
> This issue is I got a call 3 years ago from a friend of mine saying go get a truck and a plow and I have some work for you. So I did. And slowly I have added a couple of accounts and now sub for him and another contractor. My issue is that I would like to be a bit better on the business front. As far as being able to know what I need to make per hour to actually make money. I have invested a lot of money into my truck and havent shown a profit in my first two years. I have no business plan and feel like I'm just kinda spinning my wheels as an owner. I was just wondering where if there was some place to look that would have info on turning that around?


Are you a member of SIMA? If not that is where I would start. There is a lot of information they can provide you with to get a plan together.


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## rywnygc

Remstar;1423083 said:


> idk but judging from the size of those snow piles that guy is making a killing at 125 for unlimited plowing....


It has been pretty light this year (as everyone knows), so at 125 even that scrub is making money...right now. This is Western & Central NY, the lakes still aren't frozen. We could still plow 20 times before spring.

As to the topic at hand, I only do residentials....for now (going big in 2014). I get an average of 325 for the season. Most of my accounts are 2 car wide x 2 car deep. I don't do front walks, but I do shovel the lead walks to the door. I am a solo op. and with 35 accounts, it take me about 5 1/2-6 hours to complete my route. I think I could get quicker. This is my first year plowing on my own and it's my first time doing residentials. My previous experience was roads in a seminary and commercial lots as a helper.
All of my customers pre pay for the season. I don't have service dates, my contract states plowing at every three inches, first snowfall to last snowfall. About half of my accounts are year round customers for maintenance.

I could see the monthly billing working for most of my customers, but I'm sure I would be chasing money with some of them. To be honest, I think if I was billing monthly, I would have a hard time sending renewal bills to some customers (like those who refuse to use their garage and park two cars tandem in the middle of the driveway, and then complain that their drive was only shoveled around their cars.....duh).
My customers that pay monthly are full service maintenance contracts, so their monthly bill is part of a yearly service cost, not just plowing.

It's an interesting concept, but I don't think it would work for my company...at the moment.


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## grandview

jschmitz93;1423263 said:


> I'm not so much concerned with my pricing. I know what some guys are charging and what I would like to charge.
> 
> This issue is I got a call 3 years ago from a friend of mine saying go get a truck and a plow and I have some work for you. So I did. And slowly I have added a couple of accounts and now sub for him and another contractor. My issue is that I would like to be a bit better on the business front. As far as being able to know what I need to make per hour to actually make money. I have invested a lot of money into my truck and havent shown a profit in my first two years. I have no business plan and feel like I'm just kinda spinning my wheels as an owner. I was just wondering where if there was some place to look that would have info on turning that around?


Sit down with pen and[paper and write down all your reacquiring expenses.I'm sure you have insurance to plow. Also if your getting more on your own it maybe time to dump one company you plow for and start building up your own stuff.


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## 01PStroke

15-17/hr for a shoveler.. someone call my boss for me lol. I'm getting 15/hr (1099'd), taking my own truck (hauling 3 others +his blowers, shovels, pallet of salt), paying my own fuel, repairs/ect, and paying uncle sam. Route runs around 100 miles from shop start to shop finish (crazy I know). Last storm was $240 pre-tax


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## grandview

01PStroke;1430869 said:


> 15-17/hr for a shoveler.. someone call my boss for me lol. I'm getting 15/hr (1099'd), taking my own truck (hauling 3 others +his blowers, shovels, pallet of salt), paying my own fuel, repairs/ect, and paying uncle sam. Route runs around 100 miles from shop start to shop finish (crazy I know). Last storm was $240 pre-tax


A,your nuts.
B.go work at Walmart and make more.


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## Herm Witte

01PStroke;1430869 said:


> 15-17/hr for a shoveler.. someone call my boss for me lol. I'm getting 15/hr (1099'd), taking my own truck (hauling 3 others +his blowers, shovels, pallet of salt), paying my own fuel, repairs/ect, and paying uncle sam. Route runs around 100 miles from shop start to shop finish (crazy I know). Last storm was $240 pre-tax


Not to start a big brouha here, I believe both the IRS and any insurance company would question the legitimacy of you as an independant contractor. Personally, I would be very concerned about whose ying is on the line should one of your helpers get hurt.


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## 01PStroke

grandview;1430880 said:


> A,your nuts.
> B.go work at Walmart and make more.





Herm Witte;1430927 said:


> Not to start a big brouha here, I believe both the IRS and any insurance company would question the legitimacy of you as an independant contractor. Personally, I would be very concerned about whose ying is on the line should one of your helpers get hurt.


That's what I was thinking. I basically did it to get my foot in the door and see how this business is run.. I can say I LOVE being out in the snow, driving in it, ect. and this at least showed me I should look at subbing for someone else next year.. with a plow.

That being said, do sidewalk guys normally have a company truck or are they paid more when they bring their own? Insurance wise I was under the understanding (by the boss) that I needed anything other than my reg. auto?

Also, sorry to hijack the thread


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## Herm Witte

01PStroke;1431198 said:


> That's what I was thinking. I basically did it to get my foot in the door and see how this business is run.. I can say I LOVE being out in the snow, driving in it, ect. and this at least showed me I should look at subbing for someone else next year.. with a plow.
> 
> That being said, do sidewalk guys normally have a company truck or are they paid more when they bring their own? Insurance wise I was under the understanding (by the boss) that I needed anything other than my reg. auto?
> 
> Also, sorry to hijack the thread


Your questions are better off answered by an insurance agent who is looking our for you.


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## 01PStroke

Herm Witte;1431232 said:


> Your questions are better off answered by an insurance agent who is looking our for you.


Truth. He'll be getting a call as soon as I get back from sunny Arizona! Thumbs Up


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