# It's already starting - stolen salt



## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

On the NBC 5 news in Chicago they reported 16 semi's of salt stolen from a large depot in Aurora. They say now police are being stationed at large depots covering state and city depots.

The season hasn't even started, salt supplies are way down this late in the game - going to be an interesting winter. On the plus side they said salt is costing 3 to 4x from last season so, maybe some of the clients will not complain as much.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

thats terrible


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

i think its in elite's shed LOL


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## albhb3 (Dec 18, 2007)

uhhhhhhhh how does someone not notice 16 trucks worth of salt missing???????????????


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

they did notice........thats how they know it was stolen


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## stroker79 (Dec 2, 2006)

I wish I had my camera handy but we are not short on salt. I was driving down 355 last week and I went over this river where they unload the salt barges. There was a MOUNTIAN of salt that was huge and they also had a giant steel building full. There were a few full barges floating still too. I think its the salt companies playing games like the oil companies do. Wouldnt surprise me if salt supplies are suddenly over filled and they have to nearly give it away, lol.


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## Vaughn Schultz (Nov 18, 2004)

cretebaby;614918 said:


> they did notice........thats how they know it was stolen


thats funny ha ha


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

you know whats funny..... ppl here have asked if there would be an investigation about the price of salt , and price gaudging... but they claim its perfectly leagal


lateral price fixing is not legal , it makes me wonder -


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## hydro_37 (Sep 10, 2006)

The police are probabily being stationed at a coffee shop near the salt depots.....eating donuts and drinking coffee. Bet they are watching the salt container on the table they are sitting at.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

lol, hahaaha

well know i feel so much safer


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

sounds like someone is ripping the insurance company so they can afford salt. how does one still 16 semi loads. I konw guys will pull up and get salt at depots during storms but 16 semis


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

elite1msmith;614948 said:


> you know whats funny..... ppl here have asked if there would be an investigation about the price of salt , and price gaudging... but they claim its perfectly leagal
> 
> lateral price fixing is not legal , it makes me wonder -


Actually. Here in good OL sue 'em all Illinois the AT is investigating salt price fixing. She has set up a task force and spending good money and lot's of staff.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

scottL;615373 said:


> Actually. Here in good OL sue 'em all Illinois the AT is investigating salt price fixing. She has set up a task force and spending good money and lot's of staff.


Another waste of taxpayer money. Dead end road attempting to show collusion between those who actually produce the salt.

Slow moving municipalities are really crying the blues right now.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6469893


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

1olddogtwo;615424 said:


> http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6469893


Yea.........that does suck. Lets hope some info come forward and they get the SOB. We also had a pile thieved, but that was last year........this year will be worse.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

TCLA;615400 said:


> Another waste of taxpayer money. Dead end road attempting to show collusion between those who actually produce the salt.
> 
> Slow moving municipalities are really crying the blues right now.


if they figured out what caused the increase, with out any justification , and proved that the three major suppliers in the area all raised there prices at once without any type of reason for it .... it could be proved. Lateral price fixing, is when you and your compeditors agree ( or wink at each other) that all at once your going to rase your prices , so that ppl have no choice. It would be the same if you called every landscaper in town , and you all winked or agree to charge 75 dollars to mow a 8000 sq foot lot. some ppl would hav eno choice but to pay it -

I truely cant see how , supply and demand make the cost go up 3x ....i cant see how fuel would make it go up 3x .... so i would reallly like to hear more on this subject

even if they dont prove anything, i bet it might but a scare into a few of the suppliers to rethink there price. the thought of Jail , may change a few minds in the following months/years


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Supply and demand most certainly drives the market pricing, and can change it significantly. Salt pricing has been stagnant for many, many years. It's not too surprising that last years genuine shortage and huge price spike along with earlier and increased demands this year that we find ourselves in the position we are in. Whats troubling is the fact that most municipalities still pay far less than any of us.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

TCLA;615549 said:


> ....... Whats troubling is the fact that most municipalities still pay far less than any of us.


not really, there is nothing wrong with giving a discount to volume users.
I also believe they sign multi-year contracts locking in prices.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Grn Mtn;615567 said:


> not really,
> Yes really
> 
> there is nothing wrong with giving a discount to volume users.
> ...


Many do. The county next to us buys the same amount we do.........close to half the price that we pay.......new two year contract for them.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

stroker79;614928 said:


> I wish I had my camera handy but we are not short on salt. I was driving down 355 last week and I went over this river where they unload the salt barges. There was a MOUNTIAN of salt that was huge and they also had a giant steel building full. There were a few full barges floating still too. I think its the salt companies playing games like the oil companies do. Wouldnt surprise me if salt supplies are suddenly over filled and they have to nearly give it away, lol.


Amen to that.
Heading down threw the Chicago Skyway this friday and sunday the piles were allmost as big as last years pre-season piles. There are additional piles tarped with vents on both sides of the road (seperate yards) that are the size of football fields 100' tall.
I suppose they are saving those piles for when it hits $200 a ton cash and carry


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## 91AK250 (Nov 28, 2007)

makes me glad we dont use salt! goodluck with the season guys!


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## accentlawn (Nov 17, 2007)

1olddogtwo;615424 said:


> http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6469893


$32,000 for 120 tons?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

accentlawn;616855 said:


> $32,000 for 120 tons?


$266.67/ton

at least thats what hes telling the ins company


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## GreenAcresFert (Sep 28, 2007)

That sounds a little on the crooked side, matter fact I had 100 tons stolen out of my backyard that I paid $500 a ton for. Give me a break, no wonder my ins. is so expensive


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## PDQ Pete (Dec 22, 2002)

I got a picture of the cops watching the salt pile.


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

Hey, I found a guy who knows a guy who's cousin can get salt cheap, they said they have about 16 semis worth, I am taking 2, anyone else interested?


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## accentlawn (Nov 17, 2007)

I was just wondering if I was the only one that noticed that it seemed a little expensive. I know the price of salt has gone up substantially, but almost $270 a ton? Sounds like the thief in this story is the one filing the insurance claim.


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## snowandgo (Oct 26, 2008)

I agree on the high price, but I bet that is the applied rate, a.k.a. "street value" If you have to pay a deductible and a 150% price increase, you have to be creative.

If I remember right, the salt was stolen from multiple locations, and it was probably taken two months ago. The guys hadn't checked their sheds since May.


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## RepoMan207 (Oct 7, 2008)

More like the Dispatcher was selling loads on the sly. 16 loads....Now they loads these on carriers, not there own trailers right?


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

and how do you prove you had the salt? hmmmmm i had 3000 ton stolen just the other day i might make a claim.


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## ALLABOUTSNOW (Sep 26, 2008)

I heard today that Central Salt has already sold over 75,000 tons of salt in the past 2 months... Those pile are huge at the canal.


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## JOEC (Oct 12, 2004)

Does anyone here find it strange that it cost them 32000.00 for 120 tons of salt? Whats amazing to me is that I had a account tell me that the company that claims they had the salt stolen was buying salt for last years prices. So they were able to still charge 120 ton for salt applied. I'm really confused. 
A. stolen 120tons = $ 32,000.00 
B applied 120 ton = $14,400.00
C. claims they were still paying 50 ton = $6000.00 
D. there full of crap and looking for prime time spot to ripe on paving and small landscapers.

My choice would be D 
The brain that did the interview should have said we just don't know how someone could have loaded six semi's. 
Service your accounts and hopefully your account won't accept a bid from these crooks


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

JOEC;618669 said:


> Does anyone here find it strange that it cost them 32000.00 for 120 tons of salt? Whats amazing to me is that I had a account tell me that the company that claims they had the salt stolen was buying salt for last years prices. So they were able to still charge 120 ton for salt applied. I'm really confused.
> A. stolen 120tons = $ 32,000.00
> B applied 120 ton = $14,400.00
> C. claims they were still paying 50 ton = $6000.00
> ...


I know some people like running their mouths online, makes them feel tuff. These guys are not crooks. They have a large snow company. A friend of mine knows a guy there. They are a great group of guys. Why would they have to ripe on smaller companies? they probably wouldn't even want most of the accounts that we get..

And we really don't know the whole story, Maybe it was salt from last year during the shortage that they paid a pretty penny for. Maybe they trucked the salt from a storage lot, which means moving equipment and using trucks and payroll. I dont personally know this company. So i dont know either, but ask yourself this. If you had stuff stolen, dont you try to get as much as you can for it from your insurance company.


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## GLSS22 (Dec 31, 2007)

The company is based out of the town i live in. They are a Huge snow removal company, and have all kinds of equipment. although there totals werent listed in snow magazine im sure they would be close to the top. as far as the salt goes, i heard one report say that only a certain number of people had access to the pile, and they were looking into it. my guess is,a guy got paid X # of dollars to leave the lock off one night or something. but it being this close to winter, itll prbly cost a pretty penny to replenish there supply.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

TCLA;615604 said:


> Many do. The county next to us buys the same amount we do.........close to half the price that we pay.......new two year contract for them.


I read a post, form my opinion, scroll down and theres what i was going to say.....There are several cities around us that use less than we do, and we'd be willing to sign a multi year contract without a problem.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Jeff Tovar is a good guy, and runs a class operation. He's not a crook. Maybe some misinformation out there. Lots of speculation going on. It does sound a little on the high side, but who here know all the facts?


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

sounds fishy any way you put it. either it wasnt stolen or it was and they are ripping off the insurance. so that doesnt make him a good guy.


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## newlooklandscp (Sep 27, 2005)

BNC SERVICES;618682 said:


> I know some people like running their mouths online, makes them feel tuff. These guys are not crooks. They have a large snow company. A friend of mine knows a guy there. They are a great group of guys. Why would they have to ripe on smaller companies? they probably wouldn't even want most of the accounts that we get..
> 
> And we really don't know the whole story, Maybe it was salt from last year during the shortage that they paid a pretty penny for. Maybe they trucked the salt from a storage lot, which means moving equipment and using trucks and payroll. I dont personally know this company. So i dont know either, but ask yourself this. If you had stuff stolen, dont you try to get as much as you can for it from your insurance company.


A friend of yours knows a guy there? Wow thats a great connection. Tovar not crooks? lol makes me laugh. They under bid everyone and if they don't there contracts are twisted to stick it in the properties ***. All they do is quantity over quality period.


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

newlooklandscp;619617 said:


> A friend of yours knows a guy there? Wow thats a great connection. Tovar not crooks? lol makes me laugh. They under bid everyone and if they don't there contracts are twisted to stick it in the properties ***. All they do is quantity over quality period.


Wow, they underbid everyone and are crooks. yet they pay all there subs, operators and drivers really well. Are one of the largest snow contractors in chicago area. I dont see how that could work, they would be gone if they were a shady company.. And yes a good friend of mine knows one of the head guys over there. I cant remember his name. so piss off there is nothing wrong with that connection.


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## Bird21 (Sep 4, 2008)

Easy guys they are a good group of people that I have worked for years, they are not shady at all!!! I have always been paid within 2 weeks of a storm. I am sure they are not doing any insurance scam.. I know all the guys there and there is nothing shady going on there. They have done alot of snow in this area and never have I heard anything bad about them. If you put the time in they pay no matter what the circumstance. Period. I can say that I wish that all my accounts paid as well as these guys I have never even had to argue a bill with them they pay what is due and them some. So don't jump to quick to judge.

Bird


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

I don't believe the report stated it was Tovar or not. I have heard from two different property managers that Tovar has under cut bids just to win the deal. Really not to uncommon in business at any level or industry segment. Doesn't make them bad but, no one likes costs being driven down as it affects everyone sort of like someone on your block selling their house for below market value - then when it comes time to sell or refinance your house is worth less for no good reason.

How about this thought on the salt .... Maybe it was crappy salt and simply the rains caused it to dissolve???

In either case we should not be beating up any specific snow plow company. Really not cool.


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## DODGE-BOY (Oct 28, 2008)

Let me head a different direction on this, back to the prices. Cargill just started cancelling loads of bagged products yesterday. Had 10 loads ordered, got 7 and thats it till after DEC is what they said but that story changes every week. Of course by then snow will be everywhere and there might be a true shortage then.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

DODGE-BOY;619880 said:


> Let me head a different direction on this, back to the prices. Cargill just started cancelling loads of bagged products yesterday. Had 10 loads ordered, got 7 and thats it till after DEC is what they said but that story changes every week. Of course by then snow will be everywhere and there might be a true shortage then.


What does that mean when you say Cargill canceled bagged product? Are you thinking there is not the demand or that they are redirecting product to fill the bulk requests????


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## DODGE-BOY (Oct 28, 2008)

scottL;619914 said:


> What does that mean when you say Cargill canceled bagged product? Are you thinking there is not the demand or that they are redirecting product to fill the bulk requests????


Originally they said when the bagged product was all gone there would be no more, so get what you need now. Now they are already out of 80# bags and are depleting the 50# bag supply. I suppose when those are gone then all that is left is bulk, if all the bulk supply contracts are filled and weather hasn't depleted whats left. Last week they said they were waiting on a barge to start bagging 80's again but that was a lie. Cargill is notorious for cancelling orders that have already been given guaranteed status. They are scum of the earth!!!


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

*Low bid & branding*

Anyone that is going to bash Tovar based solely on low bid is missing out on how a TURE BIDDING process is conducted. My company has been awarded several contracts based on low bid and I would hardly consider myself a poor business operator nor would my balance sheet reflect that either.

Now I guess if you have a start up company and all your work is based on people you know and you have ever been given the rates of another company from a "inside connection" so you can lower your rates and have to work awarded to your company, then you are engaging in what could be consider BID FIXING and that is a criminal act. Hardly something that anyone would compare to the low bid process.

As for my personal experience with Tovar, I will agree with others here who have stated the truth, Tovar has a huge number of subs and would not exist without them and all subs get PAID!!!!!!!! They have NEVER denied the payment for any work reguardless of the situation and pay on time. It was not too long ago that a well know person in the snow industry, John Allen, was behind one of the biggest non-payment of sub-contractor scams ever. There are many subs in the area that can tell countless stories of getting the shaft on payment for things as little as not checking a box on a form or locking into a contract them left the sub taking a loss. I dare anyone to find a sub-contractor that will say that about Tovar.

I only bring some of this up based on the importance of branding your company name. How anyone can just run off at the mouth about a previous President of the ONLY Snow and Ice Assoc. with a proven track record of record profits clearly does not understand nor has ever expereienced the hard work it takes to create a brand for your company.

I am talking about the guy that goes out there an actually starts a company without knowing anyone or getting any work just given to them. That is how I did it and it burns my arse to hear people always talking about how they landed a huge account because: "my uncle in on the bowling team with the prop. mgr", or "that guy worked with my dad so he told me what the budget was", and so on.

Ron G.


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## 4evergreenlawns (Oct 22, 2002)

*Salt supply*

Wow, do you all really think that just by driving by a huge pile of salt means there is no issue with supply???

So I guess if all the tanks are full of gas that means there is no supply issue. Or, I see milk getting delivered at Jewel so why is it so expensive. Oh, better yet, I drove by a chicken farm and there must of been over 1000 of them little suckers, I bet I can get eggs for free now.

Really, you are all better business operators than that and if you have questions about the supply do some homework.

Read the paper and learn how many of your county salt bins are EMPTY. We are talking about 100's of 1000's of tons. If not possibly 1M tons.

Just for a second think about WHY we are starting to hear about a shortage of bagged material?

Ask why are suppliers demanding pre-payment for salt? Many business took deleriver of salt late in the season 07/08 at much higher rates and NEVER paid of it. Leaving supply to chase down money. I am sure none of you know anyone tell you that story over a few beers but they did it.

All of these things are the result of poor planing, bad business pratices, and a balancing of the market.

If you do not want to accept the conditions in the market then I guess you can find a why to justify to yourself what is happening is just price fixing or a way to drive up the price of material. Truth is there is a cause and affect for everything.

Cause - Bulk users of salt have decided to get their supply VIA bagged product because they were told it is available and less per ton than bulk is now or going to be.

Affect- orders for bagged product salt increase at a rate that production can not keep up with the demand resulting in a shortage of supply.

For the first time in 6 years I have taken a order of 18 pallet of bagged salt when I have only ever used bulk. This is nothing more than a short term insurance policy for me but just think if every operator that would normally by pallets as needed over a 5 month period now orders a season supply in October? Can you not see the impact on supply and manfacture ability?

And the examples go on. To just look at a pile of salt sitting somewhere and say "what shortage I can see it right there" is at best no different then Sara Palin saying she has national security experience based on being able to see Russia from her front porch. Lets see how that works out for them. I am sure it could have the same impact on your business if you want to accept the aforementioned theory of if I can see it I can get it.

I have taken the measures needed to ensure I can operate my business with a reasonable response to what I consider the foreseeable winter of 08/09. I am not happy about the price of salt per ton yeilding a 150% increase nor am I happy about with pricing the market will bare based on price point being driven down.

It is my choice to own/operate a business and I am thankful that I am lucky enough to enjoy the bennifit of that on the back of the few who have given all so the many can pursue their dreams. :salute:

Our freedom was not free at all!!!!!!!! ussmileyflag

Ron G.


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