# Is DOT Number Required for Snow Plowing in Michigan



## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

I am new to this business and I would greatly appreciate it if someone could point me to where I can get answers to my questions.

We plan on running ONE, perhaps TWO trucks in a family business for commercial and residential snow plowing in Michigan this season. The trucks are Chevy and GMC 3/4 Ton 4WD with a maximum GVWR of 9,200 lbs. Both trucks will be equipped with BOSS 8.2" Power-V Poly Blade plows. -- We will NOT be pulling any trailers.


Are we required to obtain DOT Numbers for these trucks?
Does the driver(s) need a Commercial Driver's License (Chauffeur License) for plowing, as long as we don't pull any trailers and stay below 10,000 GVWR?
If we do need DOT numbers, where do we apply to get them.
Thank you for your help.

- Ray -


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

You don't need them with the information you gave. If you do decide to pull a trailer you will need them.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/Intrastate_USDOT_FAQs_189910_7.pdf


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

You dont need any.


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

Thank you guys. I really appreciate your help.

I have a couple more questions.

Is there any downside to getting a US-DOT number, just in case I decide to pull a trailer later? Are there any reporting or tax requirements from having a US-DOT number?
If we decide to pull a trailer, then obviously the Combined GVWR will exceed 10,000 lbs and we will need a US-DOT Number. Let's say the trailer would be for hauling snowblowers, extra salt, etc. Does the driver then need a Chauffeur's license or CDL of any kind?
Thanks again. :salute:


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

No tax requirements, that I know of.

You won't need a CDL with those trucks, unless you decide to tow a trailer that is heavy enough to get you to a combined weight of 26,001 lbs. I highly doubt you will.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

No, no and no.

Michigan law recently changed so DOT requirements don't start until 26,001. 

I do believe you will need the Chauffer's license regardless.


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

So, if I understand this correctly, no Chauffeur License or CDL is required as long as we stay UNDER 10,000 lbs GVWR. But if the combined GVWR of both truck and trailer together exceed 10,000 lbs, then a Chauffeur's License would be required. -- A CDL is not required unless the trailer GVWR exceeds 10,000 lbs or the Combined GVWR of truck and trailer exceed 26,000 lbs.

Since there is no charge for obtain a US-DOT Number and no tax or reporting requirements, would there be any disadvantage to getting a US-DOT number anyway if there is a possibility of having to tow a trailer in the future?

Thanks.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

RayMich;1522057 said:


> So, if I understand this correctly, no Chauffeur License or CDL is required as long as we stay UNDER 10,000 lbs GVWR. But if the combined GVWR of both truck and trailer together exceed 10,000 lbs, then a Chauffeur's License would be required. -- A CDL is not required unless the trailer GVWR exceeds 10,000 lbs or the Combined GVWR of truck and trailer exceed 26,000 lbs.
> 
> Since there is no charge for obtain a US-DOT Number and no tax or reporting requirements, would there be any disadvantage to getting a US-DOT number anyway if there is a possibility of having to tow a trailer in the future?
> 
> Thanks.


youll get stopped and weighed by state cops if you get a dot


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I don't think you need a chauffeur license. It says if your principal job is to operate a motor vehicle over 10,000 lbs. I think you guys are misinterpreting that, I could be wrong though.


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

If you put DOT numbers on your truck you are subject to be checked as if all of those regulations apply to you...


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

Also as long as you dont drive a Bus or a 4500 For a Living you DO NOT NEED a chauffeur license


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

BigBoyPlowin;1522117 said:


> If you put DOT numbers on your truck you are subject to be checked as if all of those regulations apply to you...


he said it better than i did.


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## wondo (Nov 15, 2011)

RayMich;1522057 said:


> So, if I understand this correctly, no Chauffeur License or CDL is required as long as we stay UNDER 10,000 lbs GVWR. But if the combined GVWR of both truck and trailer together exceed 10,000 lbs, then a Chauffeur's License would be required. -- A CDL is not required unless the trailer GVWR exceeds 10,000 lbs or the Combined GVWR of truck and trailer exceed 26,000 lbs.
> 
> Since there is no charge for obtain a US-DOT Number and no tax or reporting requirements, would there be any disadvantage to getting a US-DOT number anyway if there is a possibility of having to tow a trailer in the future?
> 
> Thanks.


I believe you are correct with the chauffeur license, I have always had one it's just a simple test and $40 if I recall.

No disadvantage to the USDOT number. Have the number put on a magnet so you don't have to worry about stopping at weight stations when you're not towing.


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## M & D LAWN (Oct 8, 2008)

A chauffeurs license is required for any profession that you use your vehicle for hire.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

the cop that impounded my trailer and equipment didnt say that.


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

birddseedd;1522072 said:


> youll get stopped and weighed by state cops if you get a dot





BigBoyPlowin;1522117 said:


> If you put DOT numbers on your truck you are subject to be checked as if all of those regulations apply to you...


Good point. I don't want to have to go through that hassle if I don't have to.

My fear of putting the company name and DOT on a magnetic sign is that some A'hole might decide to steal it.

Is it legal to put that information taped to the inside of the non-movable rear windows, as long as the lettering meets the legal size requirements?



M & D LAWN;1522138 said:


> A chauffeurs license is required for any profession that you use your vehicle for hire.


I guess I better call the Secretary of State office and find out for sure about the requirements for a Chauffeur's license. I definitely do not want any legal hassles.

Thank you guys. I really appreciate your help.
_______________________



birddseedd;1522149 said:


> the cop that impounded my trailer and equipment didnt say that.


WOW! - Sorry to hear that!

Why did he impound your trailer and equipment?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

rented a mower with a trailer. company refused to put a plate on it. small town cop impounded it. only got half my route done, didnt pay for the rental.


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

birddseedd;1522188 said:


> rented a mower with a trailer. company refused to put a plate on it. small town cop impounded it. only got half my route done, didnt pay for the rental.


Man, that really SUCK ! ! !


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Why get a magnetic sign made? Getting letters applied to the vehicle is not expensive...they print them out of a machine that laser-cuts some self-stick vinyl and then stick it to your truck. 

I wouldn't tape it to the inside of the window, looks amateurish and asks for trouble even if it manages to meet legal requirements.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Here you go:


Applying for a Standard Chauffeur License 
Applying for an Enhanced Chauffeur License 

Chauffeur License 
Unless exempt, a chauffeur license is required if you:
Are employed for the principal purpose of operating a motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 10,000 pounds or more.
Operate a motor vehicle as a carrier of passengers or as a common or contract carrier of property.
Operate a bus or a school bus.
Operate a taxi or limousine.








Regarding having DOT #'s on your truck whether you need them or not will/should not make you a DOT magnet.DOT cops usually can just look at a truck from a distance and can determine if it meets their scrutiny.Then,if it does,you had better be DOT compliant.


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

they'll catch you w/o a fuel tax sticker every time . watch the dot chicken coups


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## Moonlighter (Mar 31, 2008)

Yes to the Chauffeurs license and don't forget the heath card, and the rotating amber light.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Moonlighter;1522370 said:


> Yes to the Chauffeurs license and don't forget the heath card, and the rotating amber light.


health card?


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## K&L Salting (Dec 2, 2005)

*Medical Card*

Anything time you drive a truck that has a GVWR of 10,001 lbs or more you are required to have a DOT physical. That includes a one ton truck. This is a quote from the Indiana DOT. When the truck and trailer get GCWR over 26,001 lbs you need a CDL.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

K&L Salting;1522415 said:


> Anything time you drive a truck that has a GVWR of 10,001 lbs or more you are required to have a DOT physical. That includes a one ton truck. This is a quote from the Indiana DOT. When the truck and trailer get GCWR over 26,001 lbs you need a CDL.


I was not aware. wonder if its the same for michigan.

kinda crazy i think. thell let 90 year old men that fall alseep jsut driving to the store down the road. but a man in his prim has to pay for a dr visit just to push snow around.

shrugs.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

M & D LAWN;1522138 said:


> A chauffeurs license is required for any profession that you use your vehicle for hire.





Moonlighter;1522370 said:


> Yes to the Chauffeurs license and don't forget the heath card, and the rotating amber light.


Are you guys 100% sure on needing this? Have you spoke to someone in a position that knows for sure? I'm curious about this, the definitions they put out are vague to say the least.

"A person who is employed for the principal purpose of operating a motor vehicle with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or more."

I've plowed and worked as a landscaper for many many years, driving trucks with GVWR of 10,000 lbs or more all the time. I would not consider myself or any of my employees to have the "principle purpose" of driving these vehicles for their job. We don't have this in WI. Just seems like this would engulf so many people that aren't "just drivers". But it would bring in lots of $$$ for the state of MI. Anywho...hope someone finds out the real deal.

Someone send out the CRETEBABY bat signal so the caped crusader can finger this out!


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

Long story short, it's for interstate commerce. Meaning if youre doing out of state commercial transpo, you need one. State laws vary so its best to chrck with your own DOT. .......


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

WIPensFan;1522544 said:


> Are you guys 100% sure on needing this? Have you spoke to someone in a position that knows for sure? I'm curious about this, the definitions they put out are vague to say the least.
> 
> "A person who is employed for the principal purpose of operating a motor vehicle with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or more."
> 
> ...


Wipenfan, these guys are full of ****. Once again, someone stating fact because it is what it is in their own home state or county. This board is full of a clowns who speak bible because their own town rules, and blah blah blah,.. A Chauffeurs license? Are you fu-ing kidding me? The DOT card is standard, not running your truck over weight is standard COMMON SENSE (contrary to SEVERAL MULTIPLE THOUSAND POST GODS ON HERE ADVICE) give me a break.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

ducaticorse;1522550 said:


> Wipenfan, these guys are full of ****. Once again, someone stating fact because it is what it is in their own home state or county. This board is full of a clowns who speak bible because their own town rules, and blah blah blah,.. A Chauffeurs license? Are you fu-ing kidding me? The DOT card is standard, not running your truck over weight is standard COMMON SENSE (contrary to SEVERAL MULTIPLE THOUSAND POST GODS ON HERE ADVICE) give me a break.


I know, it seems like a real stretch to need a chauffeurs license, but the laws and rules are so different in each state. Settle down man, I'm in search of the truth... if that's possible!


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

Lol truth on here......


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

I bet if you strung there quarters of these guys out on a blizzard three quarters of them would hatch three quarters if the way through.


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## wondo (Nov 15, 2011)

6 years ago I was pulled over driving a cube van for the construction company I was working for because there were no DOT numbers on the sides. I had my chauffeur's license (required by the company) but was given a warning for not having the medical card. The cube van was over 10,001 GVWR so the company was ticketed for no DOT numbers or inspection sticker. The officer told me any single vehicle with a GVWR or GCVWR over 10,001# required the above. As soon as I hitch up my landscape trailer I'm over 10,001 GCVWR. BS laws or not the free DOT number, chaufeur's license, medical card, and anual inspection our a hell of a lot less than the tickets.
*this is for Michigan, which the OP asked about*


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

wondo;1522584 said:


> 6 years ago I was pulled over driving a cube van for the construction company I was working for because there were no DOT numbers on the sides. I had my chauffeur's license (required by the company) but was given a warning for not having the medical card. The cube van was over 10,001 GVWR so the company was ticketed for no DOT numbers or inspection sticker. The officer told me any single vehicle with a GVWR or GCVWR over 10,001# required the above. As soon as I hitch up my landscape trailer I'm over 10,001 GCVWR. BS laws or not the free DOT number, chaufeur's license, medical card, and anual inspection our a hell of a lot less than the tickets.
> *this is for Michigan, which the OP asked about*


Were you hired by the construction company strictly to drive that van, such as a runner? Or did you do all sorts of construction work for them?


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## wondo (Nov 15, 2011)

WIPensFan;1522586 said:


> Were you hired by the construction company strictly to drive that van, such as a runner? Or did you do all sorts of construction work for them?


I was hired by the company to work in the field doing demo and build outs. The cube van was used to bring tools and materials to and from the job site but that was not strictly anyones job. My understanding and experience is anyone working for a company driving a vehicle over the 10k G(C)VWR needs to have it.

To get the best answer call the FMCSA office of Michigan.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

birddseedd;1522072 said:


> youll get stopped and weighed by state cops if you get a dot


Wrong and false.

If your vehicle doesn't fall under the requirements, you can't be violating or be held to those requirements.



WIPensFan;1522077 said:


> I don't think you need a chauffeur license. It says if your principal job is to operate a motor vehicle over 10,000 lbs. I think you guys are misinterpreting that, I could be wrong though.


I believe you are correct. I was basing my comment on how the law was previously, before the 26,001 limit came into effect.



BigBoyPlowin;1522117 said:


> If you put DOT numbers on your truck you are subject to be checked as if all of those regulations apply to you...


Again, this is wrong. If he needs DOT numbers because he does connect a trailer, this does not make him fall under those regulations when out plowing with the truck alone.



BigBoyPlowin;1522118 said:


> Also as long as you dont drive a Bus or a 4500 For a Living you DO NOT NEED a chauffeur license


Not true at all. Ever checked the GVWR of a 350\3500?



M & D LAWN;1522138 said:


> A chauffeurs license is required for any profession that you use your vehicle for hire.


If it's over 10,001#.



tuney443;1522256 said:


> Here you go:
> 
> Applying for a Standard Chauffeur License
> Applying for an Enhanced Chauffeur License
> ...


Thanks for adding a level of sanity to this discussion.



Spool it up;1522265 said:


> they'll catch you w/o a fuel tax sticker every time . watch the dot chicken coups


Another chunk of faulty info. Fuel tax stickers have nothing to do with intrastate commerce. Or DOT numbers.



Moonlighter;1522370 said:


> Yes to the Chauffeurs license and don't forget the heath card, and the rotating amber light.


Again, only if he is over 10,001#.



K&L Salting;1522415 said:


> Anything time you drive a truck that has a GVWR of 10,001 lbs or more you are required to have a DOT physical. That includes a one ton truck. This is a quote from the Indiana DOT. When the truck and trailer get GCWR over 26,001 lbs you need a CDL.


Not necessarily, and the OP is from MI not IN.



WIPensFan;1522544 said:


> Are you guys 100% sure on needing this? Have you spoke to someone in a position that knows for sure? I'm curious about this, the definitions they put out are vague to say the least.
> 
> "A person who is employed for the principal purpose of operating a motor vehicle with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or more."
> 
> ...


At one point in time, it was being interpreted that if you drove a car for work, you needed a chauffer's license. As I stated, I believe your interpretation is correct and my initial post was wrong, based on tuney's and your quotes from MI SOS website.

If you're plowing, you're driving. This isn't a stretched interpretation of the law. You can't plow without driving. Very simple.



WIPensFan;1522586 said:


> Were you hired by the construction company strictly to drive that van, such as a runner? Or did you do all sorts of construction work for them?


The law should probably be ruled unconstitutional because of it being vague. Too much room for roadside interpretation based on how good or bad a cop's day is going.



wondo;1522588 said:


> I was hired by the company to work in the field doing demo and build outs. The cube van was used to bring tools and materials to and from the job site but that was not strictly anyones job. My understanding and experience is anyone working for a company driving a vehicle over the 10k G(C)VWR needs to have it.
> 
> To get the best answer call the FMCSA office of Michigan.


There is no FMCSA office in MI. It is a federal office, not state. One needs to contact the SOS, but good look getting them to answer a question. This info is all on the SOS website. Tuney and WiPens have already posted parts of it.

Anyways, back to the OP.

No for the DOT numbers.

No for the CDL.

No for the chauffer until you hook up a trailer, possibly. lol

No for the tax implications. Or fuel. Or being treated like you actually fall under the guidelines.

This is not to say that Barney Fife might try to tell you that you fall under them. Then you might need to make a visit to the judge and have him\her explain it to the MC officer how his interpretation was wrong.


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## M & D LAWN (Oct 8, 2008)

Weight has nothing to do with a chauffeur license. I worked as a courier carrying legal documents. Because I drove my Ford Escape for work hire I had to have a CL.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

M & D LAWN;1522645 said:


> Weight has nothing to do with a chauffeur license. I worked as a courier carrying legal documents. Because I drove my Ford Escape for work hire I had to have a CL.


Not in my state of NY and many other states but in Michigan it certainly does.Go back a few posts where I posted it from Michigan's site.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Weight does have to do with CL, GVWR over 10k and commercial vehicle requires CL.

There's way more to a DOT number than just the number to be truely compliant.

We recived three tickets four years ago in Wyoming, MI - cost me $750.00 due to mainly my denial of wanting to do the right thing, reading all this BS on here and listening to hearsay from others.

The cut and paste post above here is about the only post with the correct info for the state of MI although I forget when the medical card is really needed, does it come with the CL or the DOT #'s, we have both so we have them, and no mention of drug testing.

Reality though, don't take advice from people on some forum as to what the laws are in your area. If you want the real answers in MI at least, call the State Police, Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Unit in your area, there's one in Grand Rapids. Contrary to popular belief, these guys WILL work with you when you ask for help or guidance. The Grand Rapids office Lt came to our office and went thru every truck and trailer combination that we have, looked at all our lighting, basically everything and spelled out clearly what we needed or was required.

Their answers may not be the ones you want to hear, but you are getting your answer first hand not second hand hearsay over the internet. 

Oh yea, the judge in Wyoming, didn't want to hear one bit of how we "proactively" worked with the state police to ensure we were in 100% compliance, just wanted to know how I was paying my tickets.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

M & D LAWN;1522645 said:


> Weight has nothing to do with a chauffeur license. I worked as a courier carrying legal documents. Because I drove my Ford Escape for work hire I had to have a CL.


Like tuney said, reread the quote DIRECTLY from MI SOS. It most certainly does have to do with weight.



framer1901;1522660 said:


> Weight does have to do with CL, GVWR over 10k and commercial vehicle requires CL.
> 
> There's way more to a DOT number than just the number to be truely compliant.
> 
> ...


Framer, you definitely have valid points. However, the Wyoming cop was\is a complete idiot and should have his badge revoked. He was giving tickets for no plow license to guys driving through the city that never dropped a blade. He took more time looking up the laws once he pulled someone to find something wrong than he did patrolling.

Any of my advice here is either based on the relevant state's website, or if it's my opinion, I state that. As I did in my first post.

And yes, the MCE division is a good place to start. However, they don't know the laws 100% either. I argued with one about the requirement of a commercial vehicle involved in an accident (under $1000 damage) to remain on scene to be inspected. There is no mention in any state statute, yet he insisted there was. I argued with the regular trooper before that because she was an even bigger idiot.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dfd9;1522640 said:


> Wrong and false.
> 
> If your vehicle doesn't fall under the requirements, you can't be violating or be held to those requirements.


any vehicle, commerical or not is subject to being weighed. i know one of the guy's here in michigan that does it.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

matter of fact i might give him a call to see what all is required


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dfd9;1522688 said:


> Like tuney said, reread the quote DIRECTLY from MI SOS. It most certainly does have to do with weight.
> 
> Framer, you definitely have valid points. However, the Wyoming cop was\is a complete idiot and should have his badge revoked. He was giving tickets for no plow license to guys driving through the city that never dropped a blade. He took more time looking up the laws once he pulled someone to find something wrong than he did patrolling.
> 
> ...


they require a license to plow.... wow. they really are walking all over the constitution arnt they.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Thanks to all who have given information on the Chauffeur's License. I guess if you're over 10,000 lbs in MI and working commercially you have to have it. That is one strange law. 

Ducaticorse is not going to be happy!


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

WIPensFan;1522704 said:


> Thanks to all who have given information on the Chauffeur's License. I guess if you're over 10,000 lbs in MI and working commercially you have to have it. That is one strange law.
> 
> Ducaticorse is not going to be happy!


Generally I don't post when I have been drinking. Last night was an exception, and for that I do humbly apologize, and acknowledge that I don't know everything.. Soak it up, this doesn't happen often :salute:


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Ok, just got off the phone.

question. when is DOT required.
Answer. Above 1000 lbs, class B cdl required above 26000 lbs

question. when is a chauffeur license required?
answer. When your primary job is driving the truck. If you cut wood and are hauling the wood inbetween cutting down trees then dont need one. delivering pizza would require one, since you are getting paid simply to drive.



so for landscaping you dont need a chauffeur, but he did recommend getting one anyway because then there is no question. adn i can see a cop giving a ticket for not having one, sure you can get out of it in front of a judge by reading the law and stating you do not drive the vehicle for a living you are just getting from point a to point b so you can do your job. but how much will you lose when that jerk of a small town cop impounded your trailer and 5000 mower because the frickin rental company refused to put a plate on the trailer even tho its moronicly obvious what would happen... wait?,,, sorry.



these 2 questions were answered directly from the horses mouth, my uncles brother (err... my uncles best looking brother.... his words)


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

ducaticorse;1522571 said:


> I bet if you strung there quarters of these guys out on a blizzard three quarters of them would hatch three quarters if the way through.


:laughing: I thought something was up after this one!!



ducaticorse;1522722 said:


> Generally I don't post when I have been drinking. Last night was an exception, and for that I do humbly apologize, and acknowledge that I don't know everything.. Soak it up, this doesn't happen often :salute:


Don't feel to bad, I'm wrong a lot, and I don't drink!



birddseedd;1522728 said:


> Ok, just got off the phone.
> 
> question. when is DOT required.
> Answer. Above 1000 lbs, class B cdl required above 26000 lbs
> ...


Thanks Birdman, good info. Sounds like the cops can go either way on some of these things. Shouldn't be that open ended.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

WIPensFan;1522748 said:


> :laughing: I thought something was up after this one!!
> 
> Don't feel to bad, I'm wrong a lot, and I don't drink!
> 
> Thanks Birdman, good info. Sounds like the cops can go either way on some of these things. Shouldn't be that open ended.


I dont think the issue is with the law being open ended, i think it is with the fact that, at least in my area, the cops dont know the law to begin with.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1522728 said:


> Ok, just got off the phone.
> 
> question. when is DOT required.
> Answer. Above 1000 lbs, class B cdl required above 26000 lbs
> ...


That's some important info and makes a lot more sense than some of the theories listed in this thread. I think you mean 10,000 pound under DOT rather than 1000 though, don't you?

Now an interesting argument regarding the chauffeur license as applicable to plowing might be the location where the plow is operated. If the plow is "UP", then you aren't plowing, so don't need the chauffeur license to drive on the road between clients. Nor (I believe) should it be necessary for the operation of that plow for the client on the client's private property, since DOT shouldn't have any jurisdiction on private property. The exception might be that point right at the edge of the road. Look both ways and make sure that there aren't any cops or DOT watching you?

Now more to address some of the other posts in this thread;
What is this about the 10000/26000 GVWR/GCWR? It was always my understanding that this type of requirements don't come into effect until the ACTUAL weight exceeds the limits. I.e., not the GVWR, but the GVW. Just because a vehicle has a GVWR of 15000 pounds doesn't mean that it actually weighs that much, so it should be fine to operate as having a GVW of 5000 pounds (for example). Hence being WEIGHED on the side of the road. For what purpose (besides making sure you aren't over the safe limit of the vehicle) would they want to weight the vehicle except to determine whether the licensing requirements actually apply to you?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

.........................


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

birddseedd;1522764 said:


> I dont think the issue is with the law being open ended, i think it is with the fact that, at least in my area, the cops dont know the law to begin with.


Yes, that's a problem as well.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

plowing is an interesting question. might call him back.

ya. meant 10k lbs

and he did say the actual weight, not the weight rating.

my half ton only has a payload of 1300 lbs. but it has a towing capasity of 13000 lbs. if i full load up a trailer and am pulling that full 13k lbs, i would need dot. but as long as i stay under the 10000 lbs i dont need dot.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Staying on point ---Michigan DOT rules ONLY: Clearly states as I posted 10K lb. GVW and greater is one factor in needing a chauffer's license period.Does NOT matter about plowing,hauling firewood, or if you have 20 dead hoes in body bags--weight is ONLY based on your REGISTERED GVW as the determination of what you need.It is what it is--period.Try explaining to a DOT officer that you only deliver flowers in a 3500 Chevy and therefore you should be exempt.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

tuney443;1522943 said:


> Staying on point ---Michigan DOT rules ONLY: Clearly states as I posted 10K lb. GVW and greater is one factor in needing a chauffer's license period.Does NOT matter about plowing,hauling firewood, or if you have 20 dead hoes in body bags--weight is ONLY based on your REGISTERED GVW as the determination of what you need.It is what it is--period.Try explaining to a DOT officer that you only deliver flowers in a 3500 Chevy and therefore you should be exempt.


weight has nothign to do with a chauffer's license. if you get paid to drive, you are required to have a chauffer's license.

if you drive your car for pizza delivery (the example the officer gave me who specializes in this law) a chauffer's is required.

under 26001 lbs all you need is dot, as long as dirivng is not your primary position. meaning you have to do work after you transport the material.

not that i dont agree that this law is gay...


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

tuney443;1522943 said:


> Staying on point ---Michigan DOT rules ONLY: Clearly states as I posted 10K lb. GVW and greater is one factor in needing a chauffer's license period.Does NOT matter about plowing,hauling firewood, or if you have 20 dead hoes in body bags--weight is ONLY based on your REGISTERED GVW as the determination of what you need.It is what it is--period.Try explaining to a DOT officer that you only deliver flowers in a 3500 Chevy and therefore you should be exempt.


GVW is never registered. It is a variable that can only be determined by measuring at that specific point in time. In fact, it even changes as you drive, as fuel is consumed, your GVW decreases.


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

I want to thank everyone who has tried to help me here.

I have a call in to the Michigan Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Unit in my are to try to get better clarification of the Michigan requirements.

In the mean time, I found this link which explains the requirements for a chauffeur's license.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/TS-025_Chauffeur_40680_7.pdf

In essence the requirements are as follows:


> *257.7a "Commercial motor vehicle" defined.*
> Sec. 7a. "Commercial motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; a motor vehicle, having a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 or more pounds; a motor vehicle with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more including a towed unit with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of more than 10,000 pounds; or a motor vehicle carrying hazardous material and on which is required to be posted a placard as defined and required under 49 C.F.R. parts 100 to 199. A commercial motor vehicle does not include a vehicle used exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members for nonbusiness purposes.





> *Chauffeur License Requirements*
> Unless exempt (as explained later in this pamphlet) a chauffeur license is required if you:
> 
> Are employed for the principal purpose of operating a motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight (GVWR) of 10,000 pounds or more. (See note below)
> ...


Additionally, if you are driving a commercial vehicle and are towing a trailer and the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating is 26,001 lbs or more (i.e. Truck GVWR + Trailer GVWR is 26,001 lbs or more), you need a CDL even if the towing vehicle and trailer are empty and the actual weight is less than 26,001 lbs.

There have been many commercial RV transport drivers who have been ticketed and pulled off service while driving a 1-Ton towing vehicle and towing an empty RV trailer because the truck GVWR + trailer GVWR add up to 26,001 lbs or more. So be careful and check your weight numbers if you are driving a commercial vehicle and towing a trailer.
*COMMENT:* I just received a call from MSP Sergeant McLaughlin at the Michigan Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Unit, and he told me that as long as the truck's GVWR or combined GVWR of the truck and trailer are UNDER 10,000 a DOT number is not required and a chauffeur's license is not required, as long as one is not transporting merchandise for hire.

He also informed me about and additional requirement in *MCL 257.723* that requires *

(1) All commercial vehicles* with a single or combination gross weight rating or total gross weight of *more than 5,000 pounds* and all towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles in operation upon the public highways of this state *shall have the name, city, and state* or the registered logo or emblem of the registered owner of the vehicle, and lessee of the vehicle if the vehicle is being operated under lease, *painted or permanently attached on each side of the vehicle* in letters of not less than 3 inches in height, not lower than the bottom edge of the door. This information shall be in sharp color contrast to the background.

(2) Except for towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles, the identification requirements of subsection (1) may be met through the use of removable devices which meet the requirements of subsection (1). These devices shall be of durable construction and securely attached to each side of the motor truck or truck tractor. The removable devices shall be attached so that the identification is in a horizontal position.

(3) A vehicle in compliance with the identification requirements of the federal motor carrier safety regulations, 49 CFR parts 390-399, is considered to be in compliance with this section.

(4) This section does not apply to a truck eligible for and registered under a farm or manufacturer license plate, that has a gross vehicle weight of less than 10,000 pounds.

(5) A person who violates this section is responsible for a civil infraction.​
NOTE: I am not a lawyer. -- This information was obtained from the Michigan State Police and Secretary of State websites and from conversation with personnel at the Michigan Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Unit and is NOT intended to be legal advice. Readers are encouraged to seek legal counsel if they need further clarification or live and operate commercial vehicle outside the State of Michigan.

Thank you all. Thumbs Up


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

birddseedd;1522689 said:


> any vehicle, commerical or not is subject to being weighed. i know one of the guy's here in michigan that does it.


I was referring specifically DOT number requirements, not weight requirements.

A vehicle with a GVWR of 5,000# does not have to abide by the same regulations that a vehicle with a GVWR of 50,000# does.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dfd9;1523060 said:


> I was referring specifically DOT number requirements, not weight requirements.
> 
> A vehicle with a GVWR of 5,000# does not have to abide by the same regulations that a vehicle with a GVWR of 50,000# does.


yes. as i said above its not required till above 10k.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Reason the laws are vague is this way they can write tixs and if you try and fight it they will use the one rule over another to beat you.


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

dfd9;1523059 said:


> Arrrrrrgh, do these morons not pay attention to the laws that our legislators pass?
> 
> Ray, call this ying-yang back, and ask him how he can tell you the above in light of HB 5228 being passed and going into effect back in June? Seriously, he is wrong on the 10,000# thing. Very wrong. Dead wrong. Stupidly wrong.


OK, I am looking at HB 5228 on line right now. 
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/publicact/pdf/2012-PA-0231.pdf

I don't see anywhere in this Bill any reference to GVW or GVWR,

But this link DOES spell out the Chauffeur License requirements.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/TS-025_Chauffeur_40680_7.pdf

What am I missing here?

Are you saying that the minimum weight requirements now for a Chauffeur's license is HIGHER than 10,000 lbs? - If so, could privide a link to the actual law?

Could you please clarify what you mean here?

Thanks for your help.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

Ahhh..the joys of BLUE states. Massachusetts requires a med card to drive an F350 or the like.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

RayMich;1523076 said:


> OK, I am looking at HB 5228 on line right now.
> http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2011-2012/publicact/pdf/2012-PA-0231.pdf
> 
> I don't see anywhere in this Bill any reference to GVW or GVWR,
> ...


http://www.gophouse.com/readarticle.asp?id=8605&District=105

I can't figure all that legalese crap out either. Read that link. Trucks\combos under 26,001 do not need DOT numbers. As of June 29 or 30, 2012.

Regarding the Chauffeur, I have no idea and am not even going to try to understand that one.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

"Service or repair personnel who operate
motor vehicles to carry their tools and 
transport parts or appliances only 
incidentally in connection with their 
employment."

schoffers licenses are not required for plows, we carry our tools (plow is a tool, as well as wrenches and what not to fix it), thus plow drivers are exempt, according to that pamphlit

(dont ask me to spell that word...)


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

dfd9;1523090 said:


> http://www.gophouse.com/readarticle.asp?id=8605&District=105
> 
> I can't figure all that legalese crap out either. Read that link. Trucks\combos under 26,001 do not need DOT numbers. As of June 29 or 30, 2012.
> 
> Regarding the Chauffeur, I have no idea and am not even going to try to understand that one.


Thanks for the link.

The link says,
_"The Michigan House today approved House Bill 5228, a measure that exempts commercial motor vehicles with gross weights of less than 26,001 pounds from the act."_​
But I too am having a hard time interpreting the legalese in HB 5228 to be able to correlate what the Bill says with the above statement from that link.

I can see why there is so damned much confusion. Legislators are literally incapable of writing clear and concise laws. Everything they write is an amendment to a law that also is an amendment to some other law and you have to look up a zillion different laws and try to determine how each change affect each law. This is ridiculous!

Right now it appears that as long as my trucks are below 10,000 lbs and I don't pull any trailers I will be OK, regardless of which interpretation I look at. (Both trucks also have been recently inspected and both pass all DOT requirements)

DAMN! - This makes my head spin ! ! !

-- No wonder our legal system is in shambles. - This is why cops can't even tell what the laws they are required to enforce actually mean and we are stuck paying exorbitant legal fees when accused of violating these convoluted laws.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

I posted this information on this site earlier this year. The compliance tool that is mentioned at the end of the article is available to members of the Michigan Nursery and Landscape Association. MNLA along with The Michigan Farm Bureau worked hard at having Michigans trucking laws changed. Once again, you may wish to check with your local enforcement officer to see how the law applies to your firm. FYI, Wyoming MI will send out an officer to see if you comply. All you need to do is ask. Some proactivity may be helpful.

_"On June 29, 2012, Michigan's trucking regulations were revolutionized as HB 5228 was signed by Governor Snyder and filed with the Secretary of State. Now known as Public Act 231 of 2012, this new law was filed with immediate effect.

HB 5228, as introduced by Rep. Greg MacMaster (R-Kewadin), redefined an intrastate commercial motor vehicle as being greater than 26,001 GVWR or GCWR. This is a huge win for the Green Industry!

What does this mean to you? If you have vehicles under 26,001 GVWR and drive only in the State of Michigan, you are no longer considered to be driving a commercial motor vehicle and only need to comply with parts 391, 392, and 393 of the Federal Regulations. In addition, through the process the following issues were addressed and continue to apply to vehicles between 10,001 and 26,000 GVWR or GCWR:
* Exempts the above class of vehicles from all adopted portions of the Federal Regulations, except for Parts 391 through 393
* Retains Age of Driver provisions that allow minimum driver age at 18 vs. 21
* Retains grandfathering provisions for medical cards
* Retains farm vehicle driver exemption language
* Exempts Hours of Service provisions for seasonal construction related activities"
_
MNLA is working with the Michigan Farm Bureau and the Michigan Center for Truck Safety to develop an easy-to-use compliance tool."


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

The MI CL thing - the interpratation of carrying merchandise blah blah blah by the LT that came to our shop was that we are carrying equipment used in a line of work that we provided a service..... He said yes we need CL here in MI - the judge in Wyoming must of agreed because he sure wanted my 250. I see and know how that's worded, the test takes 5 minutes to take, you or your guys will actually learn something from taking the test and it's 15 bucks. One of my guys rear ends someone, the last thing I need is people interperating 15 words on some document that can go either way...

The great state of MI passing the law omiting us "truckers" (that's how the LT said we should look at ourselves - this was before that law was passed) from DOT guidelines is a huge deal. 

DOT numbers are more than stickers on your door. 

Because my DOT numbers are inter not intra state, I can't tow a trailer to my dads house in Ohio. 

I would of had to have yearly safety inspections. I would of had to been at least a part of a group that provides random drug testing - and that's where I stopped reading into all the BS. There's some serious costs to small operators to strictly adhere to Fed DOT regs and thank you Mr Snyder.


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## wondo (Nov 15, 2011)

Herm Witte;1523205 said:


> I posted this information on this site earlier this year. The compliance tool that is mentioned at the end of the article is available to members of the Michigan Nursery and Landscape Association. MNLA along with The Michigan Farm Bureau worked hard at having Michigans trucking laws changed. Once again, you may wish to check with your local enforcement officer to see how the law applies to your firm. FYI, Wyoming MI will send out an officer to see if you comply. All you need to do is ask. Some proactivity may be helpful.
> 
> _"On June 29, 2012, Michigan's trucking regulations were revolutionized as HB 5228 was signed by Governor Snyder and filed with the Secretary of State. Now known as Public Act 231 of 2012, this new law was filed with immediate effect.
> 
> ...


This is news to me! I'm already compliant with the USDOT and have had my CL (as well as most of the landscapers I see in the area) so this is not as big of a deal to me. Less regulation in the industry is great though.

Another piece of legislation relevant to plowers. I always thought this was law but saw it was from July 2012


> Public Act 262 of 2012
> 
> This Act amends the Michigan Vehicle Code to prohibit the operation of a commercial snow removal vehicle without a flashing or oscillating light, and designate a violation a misdemeanor.
> 
> ...


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

500 feet seems like alot. i dont think your average bulb light would get that far. esspicialy during heavy snowfall


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

birddseedd;1522978 said:


> weight has nothign to do with a chauffer's license. if you get paid to drive, you are required to have a chauffer's license.
> 
> if you drive your car for pizza delivery (the example the officer gave me who specializes in this law) a chauffer's is required.
> 
> ...


''Are employed for the principal purpose of operating a motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 10,000 pounds or more.''

As I said,it is 1 factor--this was quoted again right from Michigan's DOT regs.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

jasonv;1522989 said:


> GVW is never registered. It is a variable that can only be determined by measuring at that specific point in time. In fact, it even changes as you drive, as fuel is consumed, your GVW decreases.


I see you're from Canada,so I'm thinking just maybe you don't know how registering trucks/tractors here in the U.S. works.It is based solely as I said on the placarded GVWR on the driver's side door.The actual weight unladen,laden,1/2 tank of fuel,10 kilos of pot,whatever,is completely irrelevant as far as what your registration says.A DOT officer at a scale checkpoint uses that info for determination to see if you're overweight on the truck first,then will check axle and tire ratings.As an excavator for 38 years with my trucks regularly going through DOT scrutiny,I think I just might know what I'm talking about here.


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## IC-Smoke (Feb 15, 2008)

Dont stress about your local enforcement its the Blue Tahoe that says "Commercial Vehicle Enforcement" on the side or your township Weigh Master.

When the first law came in stating 10,001lb I called the sec of state and was then put in touch with a MSP weigh master who sumed it up to "Potential to make gain" so when I hook up to my camper and head down the road at total gvw of 18000lbs I am legal but when I hook up to a gooseneck with my drag truck @ total gvw 20,000lbs I would need DOT numbers as I would have "potential to make gain" and win a purse. 

Same goes for cutting grass. a homeowner would be fine with a F350 and his mowers but once you put "joh blow mow" on the side or you get caught the next county over you would fall under the DOT rules. should be the same for plowing if you look at it that way. your average homeowner wont have a 3 yard salter, truck full of strobes and his name on the side.

BUT that was back with the 10,000lb rule. 

I run under my DOT number just to be safe! All required safety equipment in the trucks and they get DOT inspected yearly! Thumbs Up


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

wondo;1523377 said:


> Another piece of legislation relevant to plowers. I always thought this was law but saw it was from July 2012
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea and the thing that really pisses me of is that this applies to private parking lots and driveways, since they are accessible from public streets. To make it even worse, they have made it a CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

If you happen to be plowing your local Target parking lot and your flashing amber light dies, you are screwed. You cannot continue plowing or risk not only the $500 fine, but also a criminal offense on your record that will never go away.

Obviously, these freakin' politicians haven't had to really work for a living. They are insulated in their ivory tower and create all these laws without much thought as to how badly they will impact the working man.

==================

Here is another federal Law that affects only commercial motor vehicle drivers.

*Rule That Bans Hand-Held Cell Phone Use by Drivers of Buses and Commercial Trucks* 
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/news...od-Announces-Step-towards-Safer-Highways.aspx

You can't even reach for a cell phone to answer it and put it on speaker mode.

Drivers will face fines up to $2,750 and their company will face fines up to $11,000 for each offense.

The final hand-held cell phone ban rule can be accessed *here*.

Obviously, four-wheelers are not affected by this law and they are the ones that cause the majority of accidents by talking on a hand-held cell phones or texting.

*EDIT:* I suspect that it won't be long before they decide to include the use of CB radios in this ban.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

welcome to america....


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Amber flashing lights are required in most communities where snow plow operations are licensed, so the state statue referred to above is a non issue for many. In addition, MNLA and The Farm Bureau were able to covince the legislature to keep a back up alarm out of the statue. Personally, I would not want to plow anywhere or anytime without an operating flasher for safety reasons alone.. Not only is having an operating flasher a cost of doing business it is a responsibility of doing business.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

RayMich;1523052 said:


> 257.7a "Commercial motor vehicle" defined.
> Sec. 7a. "Commercial motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; a motor vehicle, having a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 or more pounds; a motor vehicle with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more including a towed unit with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of more than 10,000 pounds; or a motor vehicle carrying hazardous material and on which is required to be posted a placard as defined and required under 49 C.F.R. parts 100 to 199. A commercial motor vehicle does not include a vehicle *used* exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members for nonbusiness purposes.


Wow, that is clear as mud...
The last sentence appears to EXCLUDE personal use vehicles. Does that mean EVEN IF they are 26,001+ pounds, such as carrying around all 50 of your family on a bus, or carrying everything you own in one truck load?

One thing that it DOES clarify, is that the 10,000 pound GVWR applies to the *trailer itself* and not the truck, which need only be under GVWR and GCWR 26,001.

Now somebody mentioned a 1-ton pickup and a camper....
Since "1-ton pickup" is meaningless, I looked up Ford's LARGEST pickup, and found it to have a front+rear axle rating (= GVWR???) of 15,590 pounds. Even with a trailer GVWR of 10,000 pounds (the non-commercial limit), that only comes to 25,590, which is 410 pounds into the "safe zone". If somebody gets CHARGED driving any PICKUP with a camper related to the weight RATINGS (as opposed to actual weight), that means that the camper ITSELF must have a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds... OR the cop is ignorant of the law.

Basically, if you don't have a commercial license, do not haul a trailer ON PUBLIC ROADS with a GVWR > 10,000 pounds with ANY vehicle. The pickup itself doesn't matter. Now IF you DO have a commercial license, you're free up to the truck's hauling capacity (Ford's biggest is 24,700 pounds with GCWR 33,000 > 26,000).

Chauffeurs license appears to be a kind of "light commercial" license, where for operating the vehicle on public roads is the person's PRINCIPLE employment, i.e., bus driver, or someone employed for the purpose of plowing public roads. I'm not clear if someone employed for that purpose, i.e., part time, or not as their MAIN employment would be subject to this requirement. The difference here is that IF the person is employed for operating that vehicle on public roads, the chauffeurs license kicks in before the limits of a personal use vehicle. It overlaps with the UPPER RANGE of personal use. It seems to also overlap with certain aspects of a commercial license, which doesn't include transporting large numbers of people. I.e., a truck driver with a commercial license can't drive a bus, with or without a GVWR/GCWR >= 26,001 pounds. For commercially operating a vehicle with GVWR/GCWR >= 26,001 pounds AND 16+ people, would need both commercial + chauffeurs?

I blame it on the lawyers.
Do not believe anything I say.
If in doubt, seek competent legal advise from an actual lawyer.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

tuney443;1523419 said:


> I see you're from Canada,so I'm thinking just maybe you don't know how registering trucks/tractors here in the U.S. works.It is based solely as I said on the placarded GVWR on the driver's side door.The actual weight unladen,laden,1/2 tank of fuel,10 kilos of pot,whatever,is completely irrelevant as far as what your registration says.A DOT officer at a scale checkpoint uses that info for determination to see if you're overweight on the truck first,then will check axle and tire ratings.As an excavator for 38 years with my trucks regularly going through DOT scrutiny,I think I just might know what I'm talking about here.


Yes, and I'm trying very hard to understand the rules in the US as well. It also would seem that there are a lot of people from the US struggling with the same things.

Hence why I'm not stating as fact, but rather asking as questions.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

camping trailers are irrelivent. below 26001 lbs NON COMMERCIAL you dont need a CL. its when you start getting paid that they care.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1523622 said:


> camping trailers are irrelivent. below 26001 lbs NON COMMERCIAL you dont need a CL. its when you start getting paid that they care.


The trailer itself must be GVWR under 10,000. Camping or not. Its the TRUCK GVWR or GCWR that must be under 26001.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

RayMich;1523126 said:


> But I too am having a hard time interpreting the legalese in HB 5228 to be able to correlate what the Bill says with the above statement from that link.
> 
> I can see why there is so damned much confusion. Legislators are literally incapable of writing clear and concise laws. Everything they write is an amendment to a law that also is an amendment to some other law and you have to look up a zillion different laws and try to determine how each change affect each law. This is ridiculous!
> 
> -- No wonder our legal system is in shambles. - This is why cops can't even tell what the laws they are required to enforce actually mean and we are stuck paying exorbitant legal fees when accused of violating these convoluted laws.


Bingo. Any and every law should have stated first where it's basis in the Constitution is; second it should be no longer than 1 page in plain English; third, at least 1 other law should be taken off the books upon the new one going into law.

Anyways, enough of my idea of utopia.

Agreed, clear as mud. But, as long as you are under 26,001, you don't need DOT numbers. You need a med card if over 10,001 as well as an annual inspection; but no DOT numbers.



Herm Witte;1523205 said:


> I posted this information on this site earlier this year. The compliance tool that is mentioned at the end of the article is available to members of the Michigan Nursery and Landscape Association. MNLA along with The Michigan Farm Bureau worked hard at having Michigans trucking laws changed. Once again, you may wish to check with your local enforcement officer to see how the law applies to your firm. FYI, Wyoming MI will send out an officer to see if you comply. All you need to do is ask. Some proactivity may be helpful.
> 
> _"On June 29, 2012, Michigan's trucking regulations were revolutionized as HB 5228 was signed by Governor Snyder and filed with the Secretary of State. Now known as Public Act 231 of 2012, this new law was filed with immediate effect.
> 
> ...


Thanks Herm, clear as mud. 



framer1901;1523357 said:


> Because my DOT numbers are inter not intra state, I can't tow a trailer to my dads house in Ohio.
> 
> I would of had to have yearly safety inspections. I would of had to been at least a part of a group that provides random drug testing - and that's where I stopped reading into all the BS. There's some serious costs to small operators to strictly adhere to Fed DOT regs and thank you Mr Snyder.


You've got that backwards. Inter is between states, intra is only in MI. If you were inter, you would need all the garbage you listed.



IC-Smoke;1523456 said:


> When the first law came in stating 10,001lb I called the sec of state and was then put in touch with a MSP weigh master who sumed it up to "Potential to make gain" so when I hook up to my camper and head down the road at total gvw of 18000lbs I am legal but when I hook up to a gooseneck with my drag truck @ total gvw 20,000lbs I would need DOT numbers as I would have "potential to make gain" and win a purse.


This ^^^^^^^ explains a commercial vehicle best. Potential to make gain. Whether the crap on the truck\trailer is yours or not. IMHO, I think it makes sense. And is clear.



birddseedd;1523622 said:


> camping trailers are irrelivent. below 26001 lbs NON COMMERCIAL you dont need a CL. its when you start getting paid that they care.


No, they're not. The hotshot guys that deliver the campers MAY be subject to DOT rules and regs. Because they have the potential to make gain, as stated above.

They drop it in the parking lot, I hook it up and drive off the parking lot after signing the papers, I am not subject to the same laws and regs they are, because it is for personal use. It is no longer commercial.



jasonv;1523679 said:


> The trailer itself must be GVWR under 10,000. Camping or not. Its the TRUCK GVWR or GCWR that must be under 26001.


I have no idea what you are trying to say. As soon as you hook a trailer to a truck, your GVWR becomes GCVWR.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

I should have been more clear. i was talking about guys hauling their personal use trailers. not the guys that deliver them


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

dfd9;1523734 said:


> I have no idea what you are trying to say. As soon as you hook a trailer to a truck, your GVWR becomes GCVWR.


You need to comply, both singularly, as well as individually.
The trailer itself must be no more than 10,000 rated, the TRUCK must be no more than 26,000, and the COMBINED must be no more than 26,000.

So you can drive a TRUCK 26000 by itself, you can drive a TRUCK + TRAILER that are 26000 together, but you CANNOT drive a 4999 TRUCK + 10001 TRAILER, even though the combined is only 15,000, because the trailer BY ITSELF exceeds the regulation.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

If you really want a monkey wrench thrown into the mix, anybody can go out, rent a semi for a day or weekend, move their belongings and not need a CDL, air break endorsement, DOT numbers, med card, etc.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dfd9;1523754 said:


> If you really want a monkey wrench thrown into the mix, anybody can go out, rent a semi for a day or weekend, move their belongings and not need a CDL, air break endorsement, DOT numbers, med card, etc.


 really? i knew you could rent, but figured you needed a cdl.. what kind of training goes into using air brakes?


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

dfd9;1523754 said:


> If you really want a monkey wrench thrown into the mix, anybody can go out, rent a semi for a day or weekend, move their belongings and not need a CDL, air break endorsement, DOT numbers, med card, etc.


Yeah, that's the way I read it too. Some kind of idiotic bureaucrats came up with the rule book obviously. I wonder how that would hold up if somebody got into an accident and killed a bunch of people though. A judge might interpret it a little differently. There is a certain flexibility that the law has as far as "safe operation and skillful operator" goes, which might give discretion to a judge over just how legal it is to operate without a CDL or at least successful and competent completion of training for CDL, because it is hard to claim that you are competent without something to back you up, and doing drivers training and test in a corolla is a long way from operating a semi with air brakes. I would suspect that you could get nailed for unsafe operation of a motor vehicle, even without causing an accident or operating the vehicle incorrectly.

There is also the question of insurance, which I'm sure would be an extra barrier for operating rigs that are extremely heavy. I would guess that most policies for high GVWR/GCWR vehicles would have a clause requiring the operator to have CDL. Without that, the insurance would be invalid and the vehicle therefore illegal to operate, even if it is otherwise in full compliance with the letter of the law.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1523761 said:


> really? i knew you could rent, but figured you needed a cdl.. what kind of training goes into using air brakes?


I think he is speaking "in theory". Not that any truck rental company would be stupid enough to actually rent trucks out under those circumstances.


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

Herm Witte;1523564 said:


> Amber flashing lights are required in most communities where snow plow operations are licensed, so the state statue referred to above is a non issue for many. In addition, MNLA and The Farm Bureau were able to covince the legislature to keep a back up alarm out of the statue. Personally, I would not want to plow anywhere or anytime without an operating flasher for safety reasons alone.. Not only is having an operating flasher a cost of doing business it is a responsibility of doing business.


I agree that for safety reasons one should use amber flashing lights when plowing and I have them in both of my trucks, but to make not having them a CRIMINAL OFFENSE (misdemeanor) is going way too far. If for some reason your light goes out while plowing, you could end up spending 90 days in jail, paying a $500 fine, AND get a permanent criminal record. That is totally ridiculous ! ! ! - The punishment is way way more than the seriousness of the offense.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1523771 said:


> I think he is speaking "in theory". Not that any truck rental company would be stupid enough to actually rent trucks out under those circumstances.


shrugs. iv seen it advertised but never looked into it obviously. i just assumed you needed a cdl. when would renting a semi ever even be cost effective?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

RayMich;1523773 said:


> I agree that for safety reasons one should use amber flashing lights when plowing and I have them in both of my trucks, but to make not having them a CRIMINAL OFFENSE (misdemeanor) is going way too far. If for some reason your light goes out while plowing, you could end up spending 90 days in jail, paying a $500 fine, AND get a permanent criminal record. That is totally ridiculous ! ! ! - The punishment is way way more than the seriousness of the offense.


they get more money if its criminal.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

birddseedd;1523761 said:


> really? i knew you could rent, but figured you needed a cdl.. what kind of training goes into using air brakes?


Don't even bother, you have to have dry air for air brakes. You and your humidifier would never get along with an air system. :laughing::laughing::laughing:



jasonv;1523771 said:


> I think he is speaking "in theory". Not that any truck rental company would be stupid enough to actually rent trucks out under those circumstances.


Exactly.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1523774 said:


> shrugs. iv seen it advertised but never looked into it obviously. i just assumed you needed a cdl. *when would renting a semi ever even be cost effective?*


I suppose that depends on the equipment you have, the cost of renting the semi, and what you need to move. For example, something 50 feet long and 50,000 pounds could NOT be moved with ANY pickup, so if you're a mad scientist with a home made time machine with a massive EM coil..... Generally, a lot of smaller things over a short distance, could be handled reasonably with a pickup and/or trailer.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dfd9;1523776 said:


> Don't even bother, you have to have dry air for air brakes. You and your humidifier would never get along with an air system. :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Exactly.


clever  apparently my message was too short


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1523778 said:


> I suppose that depends on the equipment you have, the cost of renting the semi, and what you need to move. For example, something 50 feet long and 50,000 pounds could NOT be moved with ANY pickup, so if you're a mad scientist with a home made time machine with a massive EM coil..... Generally, a lot of smaller things over a short distance, could be handled reasonably with a pickup and/or trailer.


I mean within landscaping. sure you could get a big enough sod job. but i can imagine the cost of rental woudl be more than the farm delivery fee


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

RayMich;1523773 said:


> I agree that for safety reasons one should use amber flashing lights when plowing and I have them in both of my trucks, but to make not having them a CRIMINAL OFFENSE (misdemeanor) is going way too far. If for some reason your light goes out while plowing, you could end up spending 90 days in jail, paying a $500 fine, AND get a permanent criminal record. That is totally ridiculous ! ! ! - The punishment is way way more than the seriousness of the offense.


As far as commercial plowing goes, it certainly does make sense to require the light, but definitely not criminally. It just makes sense to alert people of your presence when you're pushing snow and they're creeping around the other side of a snow bank. At worst though, I would make it equivalent to having a headlight out or forgetting to turn the headlights on.

For non-commercial, there are lots of situations where it simply isn't relevant. A private 1-lane road in the middle of the forest, for example. If they can't see your headlights, your amber blinker isn't going to make a difference.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1523785 said:


> I mean within landscaping. sure you could get a big enough sod job. but i can imagine the cost of rental woudl be more than the farm delivery fee


You're starting to touch into a grey area regarding commercial use, since the load of sod or interlocking stone aren't the tools, they're the product. Might be OK if you're doing the sod at your home with that semi-load... might be a difficult sell to the cop/judge that you need that much for your house though.

Here's a more concrete example that is related to landscaping. You need to float your backhoe and bulldozer between two properties that you personally own that are 100 miles apart.


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

dfd9;1523754 said:


> If you really want a monkey wrench thrown into the mix, anybody can go out, rent a semi for a day or weekend, move their belongings and not need a CDL, air break endorsement, DOT numbers, med card, etc.


Actually, you don't have to go so far as to renting a semi, since some rental companies could possibly refuse to rent it without a valid CDL.

A 75 year old man could legally buy a 1-ton dually with a GVWR of 13,000 lbs and then go and buy a large 5th wheel travel trailer with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs (Combined GVWR = 27,000 lbs) and as long as the rig is for personal recreational use, he will be perfectly legal to drive it cross-country without needing a valid CDL or a medical card.

Or the same person could go out and buy a Class A Motor Home with a GVWR of 20,000 lbs and pull a travel trailer with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs and as long as the rig is for personal recreational use he is perfectly legal to drive it without a valid CDL. But the poor guy who drives a 16 passenger van part-time for his church will need a CDL and a current medical card.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

RayMich;1523803 said:


> Actually, you don't have to go so far as to renting a semi, since some rental companies could possiblt reuse to rent it without a valid CDL.
> 
> A 75 year old man could legally buy a 1-ton dually with a GVWR of 13,000 lbs and then go and buy a large 5th wheel travel trailer with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs (Combined GVWR = 27,000 lbs) and as long as the rig is for personal recreational use, he will be perfectly legal to drive it cross-country without needing a valid CDL or a medical card.
> 
> Or the same person could go out and buy a Class A Motor Home with a GVWR of 17,000 lbs and pull a travel trailer with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs and as long as the rig is for personal recreational use he is perfectly legal to drive it without a valid CDL. But the poor guy who drives a 16 passenger van part-time for his church will need a CDL and a current medical card.


Please don't get me started. :realmad:


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

RayMich;1523803 said:


> Actually, you don't have to go so far as to renting a semi, since some rental companies could possiblt reuse to rent it without a valid CDL.
> 
> A 75 year old man could legally buy a 1-ton dually with a GVWR of 13,000 lbs and then go and buy a large 5th wheel travel trailer with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs (Combined GVWR = 27,000 lbs) and as long as the rig is for personal recreational use, he will be perfectly legal to drive it cross-country without needing a valid CDL or a medical card.
> 
> Or the same person could go out and buy a Class A Motor Home with a GVWR of 20,000 lbs and pull a travel trailer with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs and as long as the rig is for personal recreational use he is perfectly legal to drive it without a valid CDL. But the poor guy who drives a 16 passenger van part-time for his church will need a CDL and a current medical card.


the guy doing it for church is not doign it for pay or compensation. isnt that what defines it as commerical?


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## IC-Smoke (Feb 15, 2008)

ahhhh ****! I was just giving the example on the camper that you are fine hauling your camper but once you hook to your equipment trailer loaded with mowers you're fair game.


I dont think they enforce the amber light law real hard. I guess if the cop wanted to really put the screws to someone they could but you would for sure get away with a warning on the first incident


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1523811 said:


> the guy doing it for church is not doign it for pay or compensation. isnt that what defines it as commerical?


Its not his family. 16+ passengers except family members. Doesn't have to be paid for it, its still commercial.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

IC-Smoke;1523812 said:


> ahhhh ****! I was just giving the example on the camper that you are fine hauling your camper but once you hook to your equipment trailer loaded with mowers you're fair game.


I think that only applies if you are in the tools delivery business. If your business is to USE the tools, you ARE free to move them, because moving them is only incidental to using them, not the objective.

How heavy is your truck + equipment trailer anyway? Can't be 26001+ pounds, can it? What kind of equipment you have on that trailer? A bulldozer?


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

birddseedd;1523775 said:


> they get more money if its criminal.


Exactly!

They couldn't care less about safety. It is ALL about *control* and how much money they can scam from the public.
:realmad: :yow!:


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

birddseedd;1523811 said:


> the guy doing it for church is not doign it for pay or compensation. isnt that what defines it as commerical?


I'm not sure how it applies if he is donating his time and driving the church van for free if he gets no benefit at all. But if he is getting ANY compensation whatsoever, he is considered a commercial driver and all DOT regulations apply.

If he gets a reduction in his children's tuition at the church private school for his time driving the church bus, he is getting compensation and will be considered a commercial driver.


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## RayMich (Nov 22, 2011)

IC-Smoke;1523812 said:


> I dont think they enforce the amber light law real hard. I guess if the cop wanted to really put the screws to someone they could but you would for sure get away with a warning on the first incident


Considering that this new law went into effect on July 2, 2012 - you can bet that they WILL be enforcing it. - They really don't care much about safety, but they really want your money. And if they put you out of business by sending you to jail for 90 days, well, that's too bad for you. :angry: :realmad:

It might not be a bad idea to carry a spare set of flashing amber lights in case your main unit fails while you are plowing.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

RayMich;1524258 said:


> Considering that this new law went into effect on July 2, 2012 - you can bet that they WILL be enforcing it. - They really don't care much about safety, but they really want your money. And if they put you out of business by sending you to jail for 90 days, well, that's too bad for you. :angry: :realmad:
> 
> It might not be a bad idea to carry a spare set of flashing amber lights in case your main unit fails while you are plowing.


I dont see how this law can be enforced when you are on private property.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1524263 said:


> I dont see how this law can be enforced when you are on private property.


It can't apply when you're FULLY on private property. Probably not even if you're fully OFF of the public road. The problem is that there is usually some point where at least some part of the truck has to go onto the public road in order to clear the interface.

There may also be some weird DOT compliance requirements when dealing with commercial properties that are "used like" public roads. I.e. DOT probably has at least some jurisdiction over mall parking lots.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

birddseedd;1524263 said:


> I dont see how this law can be enforced when you are on private property.


I guess you missed the last couple years.

With the passage of the Patriot Act, NDAA and such like laws; in addition, the TSA and DHS; the Constitution is just a ________ piece of paper, as Dubya called it. Oh, don't forget that wonderful ruling by SCOTUS regarding eminent domain. Or, that one that eliminates free speech when someone protected by the Secret Service is present.

There is no private property anymore. There are precious few rights at all anymore. So, regulating light usage on a truck on private property is small potatoes nowadays.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dfd9;1524460 said:


> I guess you missed the last couple years.
> 
> With the passage of the Patriot Act, NDAA and such like laws; in addition, the TSA and DHS; the Constitution is just a ________ piece of paper, as Dubya called it. Oh, don't forget that wonderful ruling by SCOTUS regarding eminent domain. Or, that one that eliminates free speech when someone protected by the Secret Service is present.
> 
> There is no private property anymore. There are precious few rights at all anymore. So, regulating light usage on a truck on private property is small potatoes nowadays.


is all true unfortunatly.

havnt herd of the no free speach with secrete service thing


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

i just read the law. it doesnt say exactly that, going against free speach and what not. but like most any law we have created. its so vague its open to the personal opinion of a judge.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

I thought this thread was a Plowsite, plowing related thread. Must be mistaken.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Herm Witte;1524565 said:


> I thought this thread was a Plowsite, plowing related thread. Must be mistaken.


Law effects plowing.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

How did I miss all this fun?

I don't have a chauffeur license. I have driven taxis, double stretched Lincolns, 220 inch stretch Yukons & Escalades (you definitely want QuadraSteer), 21 passenger E series, and school busses. 

I don't have an air break endorsement. I don't have a Class A, but I'm not restricted to 10k trailers......


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

2COR517;1525029 said:


> How did I miss all this fun?
> 
> I don't have a chauffeur license. I have driven taxis, double stretched Lincolns, 220 inch stretch Yukons & Escalades (you definitely want QuadraSteer), 21 passenger E series, and school busses.
> 
> I don't have an air break endorsement. I don't have a Class A, but I'm not restricted to 10k trailers......


cause it was changed to 2600 lbs. or so was in posted link.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

The school busses were 33k GVWR


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

2COR517;1525041 said:


> The school busses were 33k GVWR


26000 is for michigan. changes from state to state.


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## canoebuildah (Oct 20, 2007)

2COR517;1525029 said:


> How did I miss all this fun?
> 
> I don't have a chauffeur license. I have driven taxis, double stretched Lincolns, 220 inch stretch Yukons & Escalades (you definitely want QuadraSteer), 21 passenger E series, and school busses.
> 
> I don't have an air break endorsement. I don't have a Class A, but I'm not restricted to 10k trailers......


Because you live here in Maine where we often steal our neighbors motto. Just because no one has stopped you, doesn't mean that it is legal.

I have been wrangling with Maine and Federal laws as it pertains to driving 15 passenger vans, 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. If your GVWR or GVCWR is over 10,001 lb, all sorts of Federal regs come into play. Also, if you are driving a vehicle with over 8 passengers.

I still cannot figure out what laws actually pertain to those situations as the Federal and State laws are contradictory and confusing.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

RayMich;1523052 said:


> Additionally, if you are driving a commercial vehicle and are towing a trailer and the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating is 26,001 lbs or more (i.e. Truck GVWR + Trailer GVWR is 26,001 lbs or more), you need a CDL even if the towing vehicle and trailer are empty and the actual weight is less than 26,001 lbs.


How do you figure? 



jasonv;1523606 said:


> Wow, that is clear as mud...
> The last sentence appears to EXCLUDE personal use vehicles. Does that mean EVEN IF they are 26,001+ pounds, such as carrying around all 50 of your family on a bus, or carrying everything you own in one truck load?
> 
> One thing that it DOES clarify, is that the 10,000 pound GVWR applies to the *trailer itself* and not the truck, which need only be under GVWR and GCWR 26,001.
> ...


You are confusing the 2 different GCWR here. The "GCWR" listed in the frod pickup brochure is basically meaningless. When GCWR is referenced in this conversation it means CGVWR(Truck GVWR + Trailer GVWR)



jasonv;1523750 said:


> You need to comply, both singularly, as well as individually.
> The trailer itself must be no more than 10,000 rated, the TRUCK must be no more than 26,000, and the COMBINED must be no more than 26,000.
> 
> So you can drive a TRUCK 26000 by itself, you can drive a TRUCK + TRAILER that are 26000 together, but you CANNOT drive a 4999 TRUCK + 10001 TRAILER, even though the combined is only 15,000, because the trailer BY ITSELF exceeds the regulation.


Not true. Over 26k combined doesn't come into play until the trailer is over 10k GVWR.

Example:

Truck 12k + trailer 14k = No CDL.
Truck 13k + trailer 14k = Class A CDL
Truck 26k + trailer 10k = No CDL
Truck 33k + trailer 10k = Class B CDL



dfd9;1523754 said:


> If you really want a monkey wrench thrown into the mix, anybody can go out, rent a semi for a day or weekend, move their belongings and not need a CDL, air break endorsement, DOT numbers, med card, etc.


Here that would need a CDL.

It wouldn't need an air break endorsement either way though.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

I was reading some paperwork from a Rhode Island limo company. Apparently RI has some ridiculous limo laws. They made sure every trip went into either MA or CT so they were inter-state. All the local RI laws went out the window by doing that.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

canoebuildah;1525098 said:


> Because you live here in Maine where we often steal our neighbors motto. Just because no one has stopped you, doesn't mean that it is legal.
> 
> I have been wrangling with Maine and Federal laws as it pertains to driving 15 passenger vans, 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. If your GVWR or GVCWR is over 10,001 lb, all sorts of Federal regs come into play. Also, if you are driving a vehicle with over 8 passengers.
> 
> I still cannot figure out what laws actually pertain to those situations as the Federal and State laws are contradictory and confusing.


each level officer enforces their jursidictiosn laws. like weed med cards in michigan. a michigan state cop wont other you, but get caught by a federal police officer and your going to jail


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

2COR517;1525104 said:


> RI has craploads of ridiculous laws.


Fixed that for you.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Herm Witte;1524565 said:


> I thought this thread was a Plowsite, plowing related thread. Must be mistaken.


Politicians made the laws that are reducing our freedom to operate a business in a free market, without regulations.

No DOT numbers and stupid laws, and this thread wouldn't have happened.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

My question is... why have DOT numbers at all? You would think that that info could just be associated with the license plate number.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525576 said:


> My question is... why have DOT numbers at all? You would think that that info could just be associated with the license plate number.


because out government is horibly ran. the most inefficient thing that exists


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525582 said:


> because out government is horibly ran. the most inefficient thing that exists


And yet you voted in the same guy for a second term???


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525655 said:


> And yet you voted in the same guy for a second term???


I voted for a guy named Nick Boyd

we've been going downhill since regan anyway


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

jasonv;1525576 said:


> My question is... why have DOT numbers at all? You would think that that info could just be associated with the license plate number.


You would, if you have a brain.

99% of politicians and bureaucrats don't.



jasonv;1525655 said:


> And yet you voted in the same guy for a second term???


Ah, no, I didn't vote for him.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

my pizza driver does not have a cl!


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

Do you have any idea how much it costs to connect systems and databases? Governments don't use standardized software that interconnects easily as far as I know. If they connected your US DOT info to your state license plate, we'd all be *****ing about how ridiculously much money was spent when we could just slap some cheap vinyl letters on our trucks instead...plus they'd have to use more automated license plate scanners and look up your state record every time they check for your US DOT registration.

Or do you think the government is competent enough to connect all those systems without costing a lot of money and without running into a million privacy issues?


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

theholycow;1525712 said:


> Do you have any idea how much it costs to connect systems and databases? Governments don't use standardized software that interconnects easily as far as I know. If they connected your US DOT info to your state license plate, we'd all be *****ing about how ridiculously much money was spent when we could just slap some cheap vinyl letters on our trucks instead...plus they'd have to use more automated license plate scanners and look up your state record every time they check for your US DOT registration.
> 
> Or do you think the government is competent enough to connect all those systems without costing a lot of money and without running into a million privacy issues?


You said gov't and competent in the same sentence. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

theholycow;1525712 said:


> Do you have any idea how much it costs to connect systems and databases? Governments don't use standardized software that interconnects easily as far as I know. If they connected your US DOT info to your state license plate, we'd all be *****ing about how ridiculously much money was spent when we could just slap some cheap vinyl letters on our trucks instead...plus they'd have to use more automated license plate scanners and look up your state record every time they check for your US DOT registration.
> 
> Or do you think the government is competent enough to connect all those systems without costing a lot of money and without running into a million privacy issues?


if they woudl have programmed it that way from the beginning it wouldnt have cost anything more. but departments do not work together, so applications are not developed together. and if a new department is created, their systems woudl not be compatable

of course. a good programmer will develop a data export and import system for their software so that it could especially and cheaply become compatable. but i dotn see the government hiring the most competent programmers.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

dfd9;1525747 said:


> You said gov't and competent in the same sentence. :laughing::laughing::laughing:


Huh huh, huh.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

:laughing:


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

ok guys, time to put this one to rest

thanks


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