# Has anyone ever had dealings with USM?



## Xforce 1 (Dec 29, 2008)

I see all of this on here about them and they are calling me wanting bids and from what I have read on the contract and on here, I'm looking the other way. 

Does anyone currently work under them or have worked under them to give any feedback on how they do business. I checked them out on the BBB and they have an A+ reading.


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## stroker79 (Dec 2, 2006)

you read all the posts and yet your still considering working for them? LOL

I dunno, but from I gather, it seems like a total headache to work with them. I wouldnt if I were you


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

yeah do a search. I did work for them in the past lawn care and landscaping no snow. But I imagine the headache is the same. For me they took forever to pay made it as hard as possible to get them to pay and take off money everywhere. They had not paid me for over 9 months and called about me taking on the client again and there would be 5% less pay for everything because customers are dropping services but we r doing all the same services for less money. Oh yeah and can you pay me for last years work and bite then bite me. It took forever to get paid but they need all forms signed and faxed immediately or the wont pay you.


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

I dont know about elsewhere but in missouri I get a call from them constantly and I have a few times they have called about the same property with different numbers. They call all the time for bids but I laugh at that. They are not going to take your bid just see what numbers are out there and then drop it. They are a force to be reckoned with but they must be getting contractors so hey.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

...................


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## tman3007 (Jul 15, 2007)

Run Forrest, Run! 

Signing on with USM would be very similar to dropping the soap in a prison shower!  Only one party will come out of that situation with a smile on their face...and it won't be you!!!


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

mmmmmmm soap


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

the only person i could recommend that says they have had a good experience with USM is a guy that goes by Scott's


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

tman3007;866531 said:


> Run Forrest, Run!
> 
> Signing on with USM would be very similar to dropping the soap in a prison shower!  Only one party will come out of that situation with a smile on their face...and it won't be you!!!


You know this first hand ?? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## tman3007 (Jul 15, 2007)

No experience first hand...but I think I would take my chances in there before I'd sign with USM


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## ACA L&L (Jan 5, 2007)

Heres a story for ya guys. Have a fellow contractor that plowed more than few locations. He was paid for lets say 3 outta of the five contracts almost a year later, at a discounted rate to (20%) from original price that was contracted, then after they paid him for the 3 contracts, they asked him to pay back 40% of what he was already paid on the 3 contracts because the other 2 contracts did not pay USM.???? Thats what i said, he has a lawyer involved now. Its like 8 grand they want back. It was targets, lowes, kohls, walgreens.....all in all like 50 locations. At the time i was a sub for him we were running 24/7 for 6 days, mountains of ice melt. No one, and i mean no one will work for usm here, they have a guy from outta state that is trying to get the contracts and has called everyone looking for subs to do the work, no one will bite because we all know the contracts are thru Usm at the same locations/contracts, this winter will be interesting. They have called me at least 5 times in the last month.................We have a strong lawn and landscape association here in town( 40 or so companys) and when someone has a story like this you listen. I think the box stores will learn sooner or later,slip and falls are expensive. Sad thing is targets are/were good payers, now that Usm has their grubby paws on them, no one will sign up.


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

There will always be a sucker or two that will sign that is desperate. Esp. this year.


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## Xforce 1 (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm not saying that I am signing, just that I was wondering if anyone had ever worked for them before. Bunch of horror stories on here for sure about this contract!

Has anyone pushed for them before? I see natuealgreen has mowed before but I was wondering about snow. The manager here is trying to get Wal-mart to take his store back which I hope happens.


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## wmik55 (Oct 27, 2009)

we have done snow removal in the past for USM. if you sign with them for walmart no matter what happens you cannot do work for walmart unless its through USM. they have you sign thier contract which includes a non-compete. be careful and read the contract!!!!!!!!


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

buckwheat_la;866695 said:


> the only person i could recommend that says they have had a good experience with USM is a guy that goes by Scott's


Ahh I dont remember that one


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

buckwheat_la;866695 said:


> the only person i could recommend that says they have had a good experience with USM is a guy that goes by Scott's


You mean cretebaby. His name is Scott.

As for the OP, you're joking, right? Seriously, this post is a joke, isn't it?


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

nope i am pretty sure i mean Scott's, we had a thread a while ago, where someone had asked if anyone had experience with USM, and crete, gave me sh!t, because i don't plow for USM, but then someone (it may have been you Mark) asked Scott what experience he had with USM, and Scott's said did a parking lot for them that wasn't a Walmart. I can't confirm any of this, because the thread was erased, but i am pretty sure that is how it went down


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

in one of the other posts, a member by the name of DBS also does work with USM


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

buckwheat_la;867361 said:


> nope i am pretty sure i mean Scott's, we had a thread a while ago, where someone had asked if anyone had experience with USM, and crete, gave me sh!t, because i don't plow for USM, but then someone (it may have been you Mark) asked Scott what experience he had with USM, and Scott's said did a parking lot for them that wasn't a Walmart. I can't confirm any of this, because the thread was erased, but i am pretty sure that is how it went down


Well if there is no proof anymore then it wasnt me


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## BK Hammer (Aug 10, 2008)

Was going to start a new thread and find out your opinions on USM, but then saw this one. Just got off the phone with them and they want a bid for a wal mart here in town. Told me the "other" guy was way to expensive. They even told me his bid! Seems shady to me. We have had two good plowable events this season already, but USM said they were not signing any contracts till Dec. 1. Who removed your snow then I ask. The "other" guy. WTF! Removing snow on a 470,000 sq ft parking lot with no contract. Yikes! My feeling, based on all of your input, is that he will not get paid.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Scott's;867416 said:


> Well if there is no proof anymore then it wasnt me


lmao, sure make me the liar, :laughing:


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

BK Hammer;867423 said:


> Was going to start a new thread and find out your opinions on USM, but then saw this one. Just got off the phone with them and they want a bid for a wal mart here in town. Told me the "other" guy was way to expensive. They even told me his bid! Seems shady to me. We have had two good plowable events this season already, but USM said they were not signing any contracts till Dec. 1. Who removed your snow then I ask. The "other" guy. WTF! Removing snow on a 470,000 sq ft parking lot with no contract. Yikes! My feeling, based on all of your input, is that he will not get paid.


could you imagine if that was you, the other company was probably mislead into believing they had the contract, asked to do the snow service and now is going to be shafted, hey if you take the contract next year it could be you plowing for free!!!:laughing:


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## BK Hammer (Aug 10, 2008)

Just got a copy of their contracted emailed to me. Wow, they have a lot of hoops to jump through. Never had anyone make me send in a weather report to confirm the amount of accumulation. Plus, if you have to plow more than once for an event, it seems like they only want to pay you for one plow. Voice recognition invoicing?! Completed work order by wal-mart employee. And if your invoice accumulation does not match NOAA, it is rejected. Don't think I want to deal with all that crap.


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## wdcs1 (Nov 12, 2009)

Have been reading threads,but cannot find where the full name is, what is the full name of the company USM.


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## fourthcoastcont (Sep 17, 2009)

Well We found out today that USM didn't like are price played with us and then hired the old plow guy that Walmart store manager replaced last year. The store manager is horrified and mad............... USM couldn't even email us and tell us we didn't get the store. Hope the pay like you all say this will break him


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## tutianoburgante (Feb 4, 2009)

US Maintenance d.b.a Transfield Service Group a.k.a Tower Cleaning


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## 4700dan (Nov 20, 2008)

We all know there will be idiots that will sign on with  USM or whom ever eles manages with  USM all I have to say is there will be alot of equipment for sale next year cheap payup because these idiots will loose their [email protected]@ :laughing:


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

hopefully if enough of USM's choices fall flat on their a$$, then wal-mart will smarten up and can USM


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

and i love how if USM pays you before 30 days from invoice date, they feel that they earned a 2% discount...gotta love it


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## 4700dan (Nov 20, 2008)

And they also want the contractor to discount another 4% if over 10K for 12 months


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

ya...read that in their proposed contract as well. i can't believe people actually agree to that. the only way, the only way i would ever, ever agree to anything that they have is if i had that figured in my pricing already, so that i still walked away with the money i had figured, but that would never happen


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## usedplowman (Nov 11, 2003)

Having the same problem here in central Illinois. I send them 50 pages of paper work just to bid a contract that I worked my tail off to get and keep for the last 9 years then this company gets involved and says I need to work for half as much money. I am just holding my guns and prices and waiting to see what happens, but if it snows before the contract is signed I will not do there lot and if I do it it will be threw walmart direct.


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## cseutah (Nov 24, 2009)

*out of contract*

the same thing i'm worried about, they painted a good picture that it would go through them but you would be taken care of. took care of the snow event and then after was given what they would pay us for our contracts 47 cents on the dollar compared to last year. we refused to take such a hit and they turned the contract over to some guy with not enough equipment and too many accounts. I hope i get paid for our services.


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## usedplowman (Nov 11, 2003)

Thanks for the insight. Sounds like this company is back stabbin and unethical. I hate to loose the account, but if I dont get paid its not worth it. Can somebody contact me that has had goog luck with USM or if its bad I still want to here an opinion.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

usedplowman;874025 said:


> Thanks for the insight. Sounds like this company is back stabbin and unethical. I hate to loose the account, but if I dont get paid its not worth it. Can somebody contact me that has had goog luck with USM or if its bad I still want to here an opinion.


how many people have to give u a horror story for you to turn away..... if one person had luck getting paid and 50 have bad luck are you gonna listen to the 1 that got paid


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

Actually it is a lot more than one who have no issue with them. Most of us just stay out of the conversation because we know what will happen :yow!:

Most of us just understand that they have certain ways they do things. do it their way and you get paid. Do it your way and they don't 

As to them losing walmart. You understand that of the locations if even 20% complain that means 80% are happy. If a control falls on his face on one account and is replace it is seen as a good thing. 

Funny we hear how much they are going to lose because of the crappy job they do, I see them growing. 

I hear they are never going to get contractor, but funny their lots always get done. 

We constantly hear they are destroying the industry, but many of our customers would rather deal with them then us. Why is that?

I run subs My subs make money and I make money. I keep hearing it is not possible but I got 3 years of proof otherwise.


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## northeastrealty (Nov 9, 2009)

I just got an email from them, I don't even know how they got my name. The email stated that someone from the walmart division "I have forwarded your information to our Wal-Mart team as they are actively pursuing snow contractors for this season… if interested you may also call our hotline at"
what the he'll is this about? I never even spoke to these guys before


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## JKMATHIEU (Oct 19, 2009)

Silentroo;874817 said:


> Actually it is a lot more than one who have no issue with them. Most of us just stay out of the conversation because we know what will happen :yow!:
> 
> Most of us just understand that they have certain ways they do things. do it their way and you get paid. Do it your way and they don't
> 
> ...


Good for you....First positive I have ever heard about USM! Funny thing is that 50 threads advise against them, 0 threads advise for them...Why is that? Not saying your circumstance doesnt work but the overwhelming concensus is RUN dont WALK!


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

tman3007;866531 said:


> Run Forrest, Run!
> 
> Signing on with USM would be very similar to dropping the soap in a prison shower!  Only one party will come out of that situation with a smile on their face...and it won't be you!!!


that's a good one :laughing:


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## northeastrealty (Nov 9, 2009)

Anyone have a copy of usm contract just s!!t and giggles? Curious to see there rules and what not


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Silentroo;874817 said:


> Actually it is a lot more than one who have no issue with them. Most of us just stay out of the conversation because we know what will happen :yow!:
> 
> Great
> 
> ...


Who says you can't make money using subs? Find me one post, from someone who has more than one truck, has been in business for more than 5 years and has a clue.


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## ABDIRT (Sep 2, 2008)

Hey BK, I talked with the company that subs to me, they confirmed that USM is fishing for bids at the same rates you were telling me about. All I can say is OUCH! It will be interesting to see how this will work out in the future. I wonder if it would be worth getting in touch with local contractors, to band together and try to figure out a way to head this off. You know as well as me there are many people who are willing to work for peanuts (just what USM is looking for) just to make a paycheck but it is our responibilities to keep rates fair for snow removal by holding firm in our pricing with USM. Give me a call if you hear anything else.


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## BK Hammer (Aug 10, 2008)

ABDIRT;875531 said:


> Hey BK, I talked with the company that subs to me, they confirmed that USM is fishing for bids at the same rates you were telling me about. All I can say is OUCH! It will be interesting to see how this will work out in the future. I wonder if it would be worth getting in touch with local contractors, to band together and try to figure out a way to head this off. You know as well as me there are many people who are willing to work for peanuts (just what USM is looking for) just to make a paycheck but it is our responibilities to keep rates fair for snow removal by holding firm in our pricing with USM. Give me a call if you hear anything else.


AB-They (USM) told me two days ago that they had Timnath and Sam's Club on Harmony and MBros had the contract for the service on those two. True or False? They also said that they were getting bids on the lot you do I think. I put my prices in for Greeley and they wanted me to cut 10-20% off. Right I said! Sent them my full price list and told them here is what I get paid and take it or leave it. Don't know the outcome yet, but say they sent five bids to Wal-mart and mine wasn't the lowest. My attorney says there will be some things to go over with them if I get the job and if they don't want to agree to some of my terms then they can stuff it, period!


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## cseutah (Nov 24, 2009)

I wouldn't guess there is much anyones attorney can do to pursued these guys to change to other terms. look up Transfield Services Group they are a Multi Billion dollar Australian Company. They own USM, do a little research. We have a awesome corporate attorney and he said it would be pointless. they will run the way they want, and all you can do is see what happens. I just wish they would have been more straight forward, and let this out early enough to locate work for the equipment that would normally take care of them. To let everyone know right as the season is getting ready to start is the wrong way to show appreciation to anyone who has worked or done work for you. But i guess on the other hand if you know your going to try to cut expenses by a large amount, why not wait til the last minute when people (contractors) feel they cant turn away, pretty smart for a couple of multi billion dollar companies.


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## fourthcoastcont (Sep 17, 2009)

i have a copy of the contract email me if anyone wants it forwarded. it's great for them bad for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Silentroo (Jun 19, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;875530 said:


> Who says you can't make money using subs? Find me one post, from someone who has more than one truck, has been in business for more than 5 years and has a clue.


No Mark,

I run Subs on my USM stuff and still make money......

I am talking on topic not in general. Anyone who can't make money with subs does not have a clue, EVEN on USM stuff. You all seem to be saying they get some lowballer who is going the be selling off his equipment because it is priced soooooooooooo FAR below market. It is not my normal margin but I did am also not paying a sales guys cut so I can make 10 points less and still get about the same.

My experience seems not to be the norm on the site, but I know several guys who have plowed for them for 4-5 years with none of the issues mentioned.


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## northeastrealty (Nov 9, 2009)

fourthcoastcont;877726 said:


> i have a copy of the contract email me if anyone wants it forwarded. it's great for them bad for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hey fourthcoastcont, what's your email address I would like a copy of usm contract, my email is [email protected]


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

fourthcoastcont;877726 said:


> i have a copy of the contract email me if anyone wants it forwarded. it's great for them bad for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Why not just post it?


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

the full contract is posted on here already on a previous post


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

it's quite long...who the hell would waste the time to transfer it to this site by hand?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

buckwheat_la;878317 said:


> the full contract is posted on here already on a previous post


Where? ..........


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

the copy of the USM contract is on the thread Walmart usm and snowplowing!?!? everyone have a good chuckle


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## ABDIRT (Sep 2, 2008)

Just picked up my equipment from Wall Mart Lost the contract to USM. At least we got 4 plows done before we left. Oh well just lick my wounds and press on.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

6................................


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## 4700dan (Nov 20, 2008)

Same here we just lost our WalMart after 14 years to  USM can not cry over spilled milk, thats fine the company doing it I will just sit back and watch them loose because these guys are coming from an hour away to plow a 6 acre lot for $350.00 :laughing:


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## kickin'a (Jan 12, 2009)

here ya go something for you to laugh about over the weekend

Dear Contractor:
Enclosed you will find material related to your service as a USM, Inc. ("USM") contractor. Please read all of
the enclosed instructions and return to us all of the required documentation. Your timely submission of this
documentation is necessary for you to remain a USM contractor.
1. The USM, Inc. Contractor Agreement
The contractor agreement defines the legal relationship between you and USM. Please complete the top of
the first page, initial all pages, and add your complete business name and sign on the final page.
Job specifications and work orders may be enclosed with the Agreement. If the specifications are not
attached, then they will be provided prior to the start of the job.
2. Compliance Certification
We require written certification of your business's compliance with federal, state, and local laws. Please
review the certification and sign in the space provided.
3. Employee list and I-9 Forms
Our customers need assurance that your employees are authorized to work in the United States. On the
enclosed list, please specify the names and social security numbers for all individuals that you have assigned
or may assign to locations serviced for USM. Provide a completed I-9 form, which verifies employment
eligibility regarding immigration, for all listed individuals.
4. Request for Taxpayer Identification Number (Form W-9)
We must have your taxpayer identification number ("TIN") on file to issue payment to you. Please enter your
TIN on the enclosed W-9 form. Your TIN is either your employer identification number if one has been
issued to your business, or it is your social security number. Please enter the correct number in the space
provided on your W-9 form.
If you operate under a fictitious name, then you must specify the full legal name of your business on your W-
9. For example, if your name is John Smith and you are operating under the name A+ Cleaners, then your W-
9 should specify your business name as John Smith d/b/a A+ Cleaners.
5. USM Insurance and Worker's Compensation Requirements
You need insurance to protect yourself, USM and our customers. Enclosed are insurance requirements that
you must satisfy as a USM contractor. Please provide us with certificates showing the required insurance.
Remember to name USM, Inc. and its customers as an additional insured.
6. Minority Certification
USM values diversity. Please complete the business ownership survey and submit any certification
referenced on that survey.
7. ICE Compliance
You are required to fill out this form acknowledging you have completed I-9 Forms and work authorizations
for all of your employees.
1880 Markley Street
Norristown, PA 19401
P: 610.278.9000
800.355.4000
www.usmservices.com
Partners for Change | We lead the way | We do what's right | We care for each other | We take responsibility
DOCUMENT RETURN CHECKLIST*
Please check the box next to the document that you are returning and return this checklist, along with all
documents, per the return instructions at the bottom of this checklist.
□ Signed Contractor Agreement
□ Signed Compliance Certification
□ Completed Employee List
□ I9 form for all individuals listed on the Employee List
□ W9 Taxpayer Identification Form
□ ICE Compliance
□ Insurance certificates (General Liability with USM, Inc. and its customers named additional insured
& Workers Compensation)
□ Small Business Enterprise Survey with any Certification
□ Service Partner Registration Form
□ Reference Sheet
All documents should be returned by one of the following methods.
1. If a return envelope is provided, then please use that envelope to mail all documents.
2. Otherwise, you may mail all documents to:
USM, Inc.
P.O. Box 2468
Southeastern, PA 19399-2468
Attn: Compliance Department
The mail should be sent to the attention to the USM Compliance Department.
3. You may also fax your documents to (484) 322-1620. Your fax should be sent with a cover page
directed to the attention of the USM Compliance Department. The cover page should specify the number of
pages that you are faxing.
*The list does not contain all of the documents you will need to submit to USM during the course of our
relationship. Primarily, you will need to complete documentation provided by our operations department
specific to each site you service for USM. Additionally, some of the documentation listed above (Workers'
Compensation, General Liability Insurance, etc.) requires a yearly submission in order to remain in good
standing with USM.
2008 exterior maintenance subcontractor agreement _______________
Initial
- 1 -
SUBCONTRACTOR AGREEMENT
This Agreement ("Agreement"), dated this ___ day of _______________ 200__, is entered into between USM, Inc.
("we" or "us") whose address is 1880 Markley Street, Norristown, Pennsylvania 19401 and
_________________________________________ ("you"), whose address is __________________________________________________.
1. Whereas we desire you to provide exterior maintenance services according to the provided specifications (the "Services") to our
customer(s) at one or more locations that we designate; and
2. Whereas you are an experienced exterior maintenance company that desires to perform the Services to our customers' satisfaction.
NOW THEREFORE, in consideration of the mutual covenants contained herein, and for other good and valuable consideration the
receipt and sufficiency of which is hereby acknowledged, the parties hereto, intending to be legally bound, do hereby agree as follows:
1. Services: We will set forth the specifications and pricing on one or more schedules to this Agreement, which you must sign and
return prior to commencing any Services. Additionally, if applicable, we will provide you with a work order that must be signed by our
customer following completion of Service (a "Work Order"). You must perform all the Services per the specifications and to our customer's
satisfaction. You will perform the Services on the days and during the hours specified by our customer(s). You will provide the day to day
management and supervision of the Services performed by your personnel. You specifically understand and agree that neither we nor our
customers will supervise any of your employees or any aspects of the Services you provide. In addition, you are required to furnish at your
own expense all supervision, labor, equipment, materials, and supplies to provide the Services. You agree to use materials, products, and
equipment approved by our customer(s) for the Services, and you agree to keep such equipment in satisfactory condition and in safe-working
order. You will immediately correct, without additional charge any Service that does not meet the specifications, and we may deduct up to
the full amount due to you for any Service that you do not correct. You further will replace any crew or individual employee upon the
request of our customer and that you will do so within 24 hours of receiving notice from us of the customer's request. You will comply with
all procedures specified by us and our customers in performing the Services.
2. Billing and Payment Procedures: Your billing procedures will vary by location depending on whether you are paid by event or by
season for that location. Pricing for either event or seasonal locations will be provided on separate schedule(s) to this Agreement.
(i) Event Pricing Procedures:
(a) Work Orders. You are required to submit a signed work order (if applicable) and an invoice in order to receive
payment. Immediate submission of signed work orders and invoices should follow every completed Service. Invoices
and work orders must be received within 10 days from the date of Service.
(b) Integrated Voice Recognition (IVR). If applicable, you must follow the IVR procedures after you have
completed each Service to receive payment.
(ii) Seasonal Pricing Procedures: You are required to submit an invoice to receive payment. You must invoice us for the
agreed upon amount that corresponds to each payment period.
Invoices received after the designated time frame may result in a substantial delay in payment. Any untimely submission of an invoice that
prevents us from billing or collecting from our customer will result in no payment for the Services provided. We will send payment to
you 30 days after the date that we receive and process your invoice ("Payment Period") so long as: (i) we receive your invoice; (ii) we
receive a signed work order within the designated time frame (if applicable); (iii) you have properly used the IVR procedures after each
Service (if applicable); (iv) we have received your insurance certificate demonstrating the required coverage and additional insured language;
and (v) we have verified that you have provided Service to our customers satisfaction.
We are not required to take legal action to enforce customer payments. We are not obligated to pay you until we receive payment from
our customer for the Services that you provide. You assume the risk of non-payment by our customer for any reason including, without
limitation, our customer's bankruptcy, insolvency, reorganization, financial distress, nonperformance, dissatisfaction with services, or any
other reason in or out of our control. In no instance may you, your officers, shareholders, employees, contractors, or agents seek to collect
payment from our customers.
3. Rapid Payment Program: At your request we may, but are not obligated to pay you all or a portion of the amount invoiced prior to
the expiration of the Payment Period ("Rapid Payment"). In consideration of the Rapid Payment, we may discount the amount advanced to
you by up to 5%.
4. Automatic Rebate Program: If your business with us grows to the level that we have paid you at least $10,000 in any twelve month
period, then we may automatically discount payments to you by 4% of the total amount of your invoice ("Automatic Rebate Program"). You
shall not be placed in the Automatic Rebate Program for at least six months from the date that you first begin Services. Example of
Automatic Rebate Program, provided for illustration purpose only: Double A+ Services, Inc. signs a contract and begins Services at one USM
customer location in January. Double A+ grows its business with USM and by August has been paid $25,000. In
2008 exterior maintenance subcontractor agreement _______________
Initial
- 2 -
September, Double A+ submits an invoice for $1,000. Because Double A+ has been paid at least $10,000 in a twelve month period, and
because six months have passed since Double A+ commenced Services, USM may discount payments to Double A+ by 4%.
Therefore, the payment to Double A+ on September's $1,000 invoice will be $960
5. Compliance with the Law: In accordance with applicable law, you agree to:
(i) complete an Employment Eligibility Verification Form, also known as a Form I-9, for each person who performs work
for you. The form requires each person who applies to work for you to provide proof of identity and employment eligibility. The
form must be retained for three years after the date of hire, or one year from the date of termination, whichever is later. A person's
employment eligibility must be re-verified if an employee's work authorization is about to expire.
(ii) comply with all federal, state, and local employment and payroll tax, withholding and reporting requirements for all
individuals who provide services in connection with this Agreement.
(iii) comply with all applicable provisions of federal, state, and local laws, regulations, and orders affecting safety and
health including, without limitation, the Occupational Safety and Health Act.
(iv) comply with all federal, state, and local wage and hour laws, including but not limited to, requirements relating to
minimum wage and overtime, meal breaks and rest periods, as well as applicable laws relating to child labor, workers compensation,
unemployment insurance, statutory disability, and discrimination.
(v) obtain any licenses or permits required by governmental entities to legally perform your obligations under this Agreement.
During the term of this Agreement, you agree to cooperate fully with us with respect to any request made by us to ensure compliance
with all applicable laws. Without limiting the scope of the foregoing sentence, you agree to permit us, at our request and upon reasonable
advance notice, to visit your offices to interview employees and review records for the purpose of verifying compliance with your obligations
under this Section. Attached to this Agreement is a compliance certification survey that you must sign and return to us with the executed
Agreement. From time to time, you may be requested to reconfirm your compliance with applicable laws by executing and returning other
certification surveys. You may also be requested to provide documentation to us to demonstrate your compliance with applicable laws which
may include, but not be limited to, a list of your employees who perform Services under this Agreement, as well as Forms I-9, Forms W-2,
and payroll stubs or payroll information regarding those employees. Your failure to cooperate with any of our requests would be grounds for
us to terminate this Agreement immediately.
6. Insurance: During the term of this Agreement, you must purchase and maintain the insurance coverage specified below.
Concurrently with execution of this Agreement, you shall provide us with certificates of insurance evidencing the insurance required
pursuant to this section, together with complete copies of all insurance policies - including all endorsements - required to be carried by you.
All insurance shall be placed with insurance companies acceptable to us licensed to do business in the State where the Services are
performed, and include all of the requirements set forth in this section. All approved subcontractors that you retain under this Agreement
shall also be required to obtain and maintain the type of insurance coverage required by this section, with limits approved by us.
Prior to the commencement of the Services, you shall obtain and maintain or cause to be obtained and maintained the following
insurance, in amounts not less than those specified below:
(1) Workers' Compensation insurance in accordance with the laws of the State in which your employees engage in Services under
this Agreement. The policy shall contain a Waiver of Subrogation endorsement in favor of us.
(2) Employer's Liability insurance in an amount not less than $100,000 each accident, $100,000 each disease, $200,000 in the
aggregate for each state in which your employees engage in Services under this Agreement.
(3) Comprehensive General Liability (CGL) on ISO Form CG 00 01 12 04 with limits of liability of not less than:
i. Each Occurrence: $1,000,000
ii. Each Offense $1,000,000
iii. General Aggregate $2,000,000
iv. Product-Completed Operations Aggregate $2,000,000
v. Fire Damage (any one person) $50,000
vi. Medical Expense (any one person) $5,000
2008 exterior maintenance subcontractor agreement _______________
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These amounts are subject to increase as required by our customers
The CGL policy shall contain either by inclusion in the form or by separate endorsement the following coverages:
· Product-Completed Operations Hazard (to be maintained 2 years beyond completion of the Services);
· Blanket Contractual Coverage (including coverage for the indemnity clauses provided under this Agreement);
· Broad Form Property Damage Liability;
· Personal Injury Liability with Employee and contractual exclusion deleted;
· Independent Contractors Liability;
· Waiver of Subrogation in favor of us - ISO Form CG 24 04 11 85 or equivalent;
· The policy shall be endorsed to add as an Additional Insured without restriction and to include coverage for
premises, operations, and products-completed operations (to be maintained 2 years beyond completion of the
Services) and must include the following language:
Section II - Who is An Insured is amended to include as additional insureds
USM, Inc. and its customers and all respective directors,
officers, employees, agents, subsidiaries, divisions, affiliates and successors
with respect to liability for "bodily injury", "property damage" or
"personal and advertising injury" caused in whole or in part by the acts or
omissions of either you or the additional insureds:
· Other Insurance clause modified so that your policy is primary and non-contributory to any of our valid and
collectable policies. It is further understood and agreed that any policies maintained by or in our name on our own
behalf, or by our customers on their own behalf shall be excess only over any valid and collectible insurance
maintained by you on your own behalf and on behalf of us and our customers.
(4) Comprehensive Automobile Liability:
i. Comprehensive form liability covering any auto, including all owned, hired and non-owned autos;
ii. Combined single limit of liability in the amount of $1,000,000;
iii. Shall include contractual liability coverage for indemnity provisions of this Agreement, including injury to your employees;
iv. Policy shall be subject to the same requirements as CGL policy regarding the entities required to be named as Additional
Insured, Waiver of Subrogation and Primary and Non-Contributory provision.
All insurance required to be maintained by this provision shall be subject to the following notice provision:
This insurance shall not be cancelled, materially changed or allowed to expire without at least thirty (30) days advance written notice
to Us/Additional Insured at the following address:
USM, Inc.
Attn: Compliance Department
1880 Markley Street
Norristown, PA 19401
All insurance policies shall be written on "an occurrence basis." If, however, any policies are written on a "claims made" basis, the
retroactive date shall coincide with or precede the date on which you first commenced the Services. You shall ensure that such policies are
maintained in full force and effect by you and any authorized subcontractors for at least two (2) consecutive years following completion of
the Scope of Work. In the event any such policies of "claims made" insurance are terminated, you shall purchase extended reporting
provisions to report claims arising hereunder for a period of at least two (2) years thereafter.
No policies may be canceled or materially revised without our prior written approval. Coverage specified in this section is for
minimum amounts only and is not a warranty of the adequacy of such coverage. You must secure and pay all premiums on all insurance
coverage required by federal, state, and local law. You must immediately notify us of any injury or claim against you and/or us arising out of
your performance of the Services, and provide us with copies of all relevant documents, including but not limited to all summons and
complaints asserting such claims. Should your aggregate limits of liability be reduced due to loss from claims, you must reinstate or cause
the aggregate limits to be reinstated to the minimum amounts specified in this section.
At our sole discretion, we may require you to obtain additional types of insurance as required by specific accounts. Any additional
insurance shall comply with the requirements of this Agreement.
2008 exterior maintenance subcontractor agreement _______________
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In the event that you fail or neglect to obtain, maintain or renew the required insurance as specified in this section and fail or neglect
to furnish evidence thereof to us and provide us with the Certificates of insurance and copies of policies as required hereunder, we shall have:
(a) the right, but not the obligation, to procure the above-described insurance and reduce your charges for Services by the cost thereof; or (b)
deem your failure or neglect as a material breach of this Contract.
The required coverage, provisions, and limitations of this provision shall not limit your liability, and we, at our discretion, may
increase the minimum limits of liability for those insurance policies that you are required to maintain during the term of this Agreement.
7. Independent Contractor; Indemnification:
A. Independent Contractor. In the performance of the Services hereunder, you shall be and act as an independent contractor. Nothing in
this Agreement, or in the relationship between you and us, shall be deemed to constitute a partnership, joint venture or other similar
relationship, and you agree not to make any contrary assertion, claim or counterclaim in any action, suit or other legal proceeding involving
you and us. You are responsible for all losses, damages, judgments, liabilities, claims, injuries, costs, and expenses arising directly or indirectly
from the ownership and operation of your business, your motor vehicles, your property, and your performance of the Services. You are not
authorized to make any promise, agreement, or contract on our behalf, to bind us in any manner, or to hold yourself out as anything but an
independent businessperson. You have full responsibility for all debts and obligations of your business including without limitation all bills,
invoices, debts, taxes, payroll, and insurance costs. It is specifically understood that you will maintain all payroll records for your employees and
that we will not do so. You agree to do business only under your own corporate name as our subcontractor and that you have not been licensed:
(i) to use the "USM" trade mark, (ii) to do business as or under the "USM" trade mark, (iii) or otherwise offered, sold or
provided a franchise or business opportunity.
B. Defense and Indemnification. You shall, at your own cost and expense, defend us and our customer and both our and our customer's
respective officers, directors, employees, agents, shareholders, partners, joint venturers, affiliates, successors and assigns ("Indemnified Parties")
from and against all allegations (even if such allegations may be later proven false, fraudulent or groundless) asserted in any and all claims
reasonably related to Services you provided or failed to provide under this Agreement, regardless of whether your indemnity obligations, specified
below, ultimately apply and regardless of whether the allegations are directed solely against one or more of the Indemnified Parties.
To the fullest extent permitted by applicable law, you shall indemnify and hold harmless the Indemnified Parties from and against any and all
liabilities, obligations, claims, demands, causes of action, losses, expenses, damages, fines, assessments, awards, deficiencies, judgments,
settlements, and penalties, including, without limitation, costs, and expenses whatsoever (including without limitation attorneys' consultants' and
other professional fees and disbursements) incident thereto (collectively "Losses"), arising out of, based upon, occasioned by or in connection
with:
(1) Your performance of (or failure to perform) your duties under this Agreement;
(2) A violation of any law or any negligence, gross negligence or willful misconduct by you or your affiliates, subcontractors, agents or
employees during either your performance of your duties under this Agreement or otherwise while you are on the property of one of our
customers;
(3) Damage to property and injuries, including without limitation death, to all persons, arising from any occurrence caused by any act or
omission of you or your personnel related to the performance of this Agreement.
(4) Your breach of any of the representations, warranties covenants or obligations contained in this Agreement.
(5) You or your personnel being declared to have "common law" or "employee" status with respect to the Services performed under this
Agreement.
(6) Your failure (i) to provide any legally required employee-related benefits applicable to your personnel performing Services under this
Agreement, or (ii) to withhold and/or remit all amounts required by applicable law, rule, regulation, or policy, including but not limited to
withholdings for Federal Insurance Contributions Act ("FICA"), Federal Unemployment Tax Act ("FUTA"), unemployment insurance,
workers compensations insurance, disability, pension, income tax and health insurance purposes.
The indemnification obligation specified in this paragraph 7. B. shall be construed so as to extend to all legal, defense and investigation costs,
as well as other costs, expenses, and liabilities incurred by the Indemnified Parties, including but not limited to interest, penalties, and fees of
attorneys, consultants, accountants and other professionals (including expenses), from and after the time when any Indemnified Party receives
notification (whether verbal or written) that a claim or demand has been made or is to be or may be made.
Pursuant to the indemnification obligation specified in this paragraph 7. B., you agree to indemnify and hold harmless the Indemnified Parties
regardless of whether the Losses were caused in whole or in part by the Indemnified Parties' violation of any law or negligence (excluding gross
negligence or willful misconduct), including but not limited to business invitee premises liability. For the avoidance of doubt, you are obligated to
indemnify us under this paragraph 7.B. even if we are negligent in causing the Losses.
C. Damage Limitation. In no event shall we be liable for consequential, incidental, or special damages, including without limitation and delay
damages, lost opportunity damages or lost profits, incurred by you or your affiliates, subcontractors, agents, or employees in connection with this
Agreement.
8. Personnel:
A. Employees. All persons who perform the Services under this Agreement must be your employees, and not your independent contractors.
You will employ only trained, qualified, and responsible personnel, and will enforce strict discipline and good order among your employees. You
2008 exterior maintenance subcontractor agreement _______________
Initial
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will selectively hire only those individuals that can competently and responsibly perform the Services. You agree that all employees will have
received appropriate training with respect to the Services and that the employees are certified or licensed, if necessary, under applicable law. If
required by our customer, then you, at your expense, will perform background checks on any personnel that you intend to employ at any of that
customer's locations.
You are responsible for all employee-related benefits applicable to your employees who perform the Services. You are responsible for
withholding the personnel portion of FICA taxes, and for withholding income taxes for federal and state income tax purposes in the manner
required by law. You will, in a timely manner, pay over all amounts withheld to the Internal Revenue Service or to the appropriate state authorities
as the case may be, an will timely pay its share or all FICA and FUTA taxes for all your employees who perform the Services. We shall not have
any responsibility for these employee-related tax items and shall be indemnified and held harmless by you from any liability, cost, or expense,
including any interest, penalties, and legal fee, that may be assessed against or incurred by us in connection with your failure to make any such
payment.
B. Non-solicitation. You will neither solicit for employment nor hire any of our employees during the terms of this Agreement and for six (6)
months following its termination.
9. Customer Confidential Information. When performing services, you may come into contact with personal information about clients of
our customers. You agree not to remove, divulge, disclose, or communicate any of this personal information.
10. Confidential Information and Non-Competition Covenant:
A. Confidential Information. You acknowledge that confidential and proprietary business information and trade secrets including
without limitation our customer lists, the Services provided and the prices charged for them, our Billing and Payment Procedures, our Work
Orders, schedules, contracts, and other forms (hereinafter the "Confidential Information") will become known by you. Since the
unauthorized use or disclosure of the Confidential Information will cause irreparable harm to us, you covenant neither to reveal to others nor
to use yourself, except as authorized by us in writing, the Confidential Information. You undertake for yourself and all those acting on your
behalf to keep and maintain the Confidential Information in strict confidence both during the term of the contract and after its expiration or
termination.
B. Non-Competition. During the term of this Agreement and for a period of twenty-four (24) months thereafter, you and your officers,
shareholders, and directors agree not to contract, solicit, or do business with any of our customers (or their contractors, assigns or designees)
for whom you performed Services under this Agreement, regardless of the location where you performed the Services. IF YOU VIOLATE
THIS SECTION, THEN IN ADDITION TO ANY INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AND ADDITIONAL DAMAGES TO WHICH WE ARE ENTITLED, YOU
EXPRESSLY AGREE IMMEDIATELY TO PAY US A MINIMUM AMOUNT OF DAMAGES EQUAL TO SIX (6) TIMES OUR EXPECTED
MONTHLY REVENUE FOR EACH LOCATION THAT YOU SERVICE IN VIOLATION OF THIS NON-COMPETITION COVENANT, PLUS ANY
LEGAL FEES, COSTS AND EXPENSES INCURRED BY US TO ENFORCE OUR RIGHTS HEREUNDER. You agree that we are entitled to these
minimum damages without the necessity of proving actual damages, and that the amount of minimum damages contemplated herein is not a
penalty and instead is a reasonable estimate of the damages that we will have sustained due to your violation of this non-competition
covenant.
C. Relief. You agree that the provisions set forth in this Section are reasonable and necessary to protect our legitimate interests, and
that we never would have entered into this Agreement in the absence of such restrictions. You agree that any violation of this Section shall
cause irreparable injury to us and can not be reasonably or adequately compensated in damages. You agree that we are entitled to preliminary
and permanent injunctive relief, without the necessity of proving actual damages, as well as an equitable accounting of all earnings and
profits in excess of the minimum damages specified above, in addition to any other relief to which we are entitled. These rights are
cumulative. You agree to reimburse us for all reasonable costs and attorneys' fees incurred by us for action taken by us under this Section in
a timely manner each month as such fees are incurred by us and billed to you.
11. Termination or Cancellation: This Agreement or any schedule to this Agreement may be terminated by either party for any reason
upon seven (7) days prior written notice by the terminating party delivered to the non-terminating party. This Agreement or any schedule to
this Agreement may be terminated by us, upon one (1) day's notice, if: (i) we or our customer notifies you that your Services are
unsatisfactory; (ii) you violate any provision of this Agreement; (iii) you fail to maintain the required insurance, reduce your coverage, or
cancel the required insurance without our written consent; (iv) you are unable to perform the Services; (v) you assign this Agreement,
become insolvent, or declare bankruptcy; (vi) you subcontract the Services without written authorization from us; (vii) you fail to fully
cooperate with us or our customer in any security investigation; or (viii) our customer receiving your Services cancels their contract with us.
12. Arbitration; Waiver of Jury Trial and Punitive Damages; Governing Law and Jurisdiction:
A. Arbitration. All disputes, controversies and claims of any kind arising out of or relating to this Agreement or the rights and obligations of
the parties shall be settled through arbitration by the American Arbitration Association at its Philadelphia, Pennsylvania office, in accordance with
the Federal Arbitration Act and the Commercial Arbitration Rules. This provision shall survive the termination or expiration of this Agreement.
Nothing contained herein shall prevent us from applying to and obtaining from any court having jurisdiction, a temporary or preliminary
injunction, and/or other emergency relief to enforce our rights and your obligations under this Agreement prior to the filing of any arbitration
proceeding or pending the trial, or rendering of a decision or award pursuant to any arbitration proceeding conducted hereunder.
B. Governing Law and Jurisdiction. THE LAWS OF THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA SHALL GOVERN THE VALIDITY,
PERFORMANCE, INTERPRETATION, AND EFFECT OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF AN ARBITRATOR DOES NOT HAVE JURISDICTION, A CLAIM
CAN NOT BE ARBITRATED AS A MATTER OF LAW, OR IF THERE IS AN APPEAL FROM OR RELATING TO AN ARBITRATION, THEN THE
PARTIES AGREE TO THE JURISDICTION AND VENUE OF THE COURTS IN MONTGOMERY COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA OR THE UNITED
STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA IN PHILADELPHIA.
2008 exterior maintenance subcontractor agreement _______________
Initial
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C. Waivers. Both you and we irrevocably waive our respective rights to trial by jury on any action, proceeding, or counterclaim, whether at
law or in equity, brought by either you or us. Furthermore, both you and we irrevocably waive, to the fullest extent permitted by law, any right or
claim for any punitive, exemplary, consequential, or speculative damages against one another. Both you and we agree that in the event of a
dispute, except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, each is limited to the actual damages sustained. No arbitration or action under this
Agreement shall include, by consolidation, joinder, or any other manner, any claims by any person or entity in privity with or claiming through or
on behalf either you or us. Neither you nor we shall arbitrate or litigate as a representative of or on behalf of any other person or entity, any
dispute, controversy, or claim of any kind arising out of or relating to this Agreement, your or our respective rights and obligations, or any other
claims or causes of action relating to your or our performance under this Agreement.
13. Assignment. We may assign this Agreement without prior notice to you. You may not assign this Agreement.
14. Right to Offset. We may withhold from payment owed to you any amount due to us from you under the indemnification provision,
any other provision of this Agreement, or due to a breach of this Agreement.
15. Miscellaneous. If any sentence, paragraph or provision in this Agreement for any reason is deemed illegal or otherwise
unenforceable, then the validity of the remaining sentences, paragraphs or provisions shall not be affected; the unenforceable portion, term or
provision shall be deemed not to be a part of this Agreement, and this Agreement shall be construed as if such provision had never been a part of it.
Any provisions of this Agreement that may be reasonably interpreted to impose any obligation after termination or expiration upon you or us
shall survive such termination or expiration and be binding upon you and us. This Agreement contains the entire agreement between you and
us. No promises, inducements or representations not contained in this Agreement shall be of any force or effect or binding upon you or us.
Any pre-printed terms or conditions appear on an invoice from you shall be of no force and effect, and shall be expressly superseded by the
terms of this Agreement. Any modifications, changes, or variances to this Agreement made by you shall be void and of no effect unless made
in writing and signed by us.
Intending to be legally bound, the parties hereto have caused this Agreement to be executed by their authorized representatives on the
date first above written.
You: ___________________________________ Us: USM, Inc.
Print complete business name. Indicate a
fictitious name with "d/b/a"
___________________________________ _________________________________
Signature Signature
___________________________________ _________________________________
Print Name Print Name
___________________________________ _________________________________
Title Title
1880 Markley Street
Norristown, PA 19401
P: 610.278.9000
800.355.4000
www.usmservices.com
Partners for Change | We lead the way | We do what's right | We care for each other | We take responsibility
CONTRACTOR COMPLIANCE CERTIFICATION
Dear Contractor:
Your USM, Inc. ("USM") Contractor Agreement requires you to comply with not only the express terms of
the Contractor Agreement, but also with all federal, state and local laws. In accordance with the terms of the
Contractor Agreement, all persons who provide services under the agreement must be employees of your
company, and not independent contractors. There are a number of laws which impose specific obligations on
you when you hire employees. Without limitation, these obligations include the following:
1. As required by law, you must complete an Employment Eligibility Verification Form, also
known as a Form I-9, for each person who performs work for your company. The form requires each person
who applies to work for you to provide proof of identity and employment eligibility. The form must be
retained for three years after the date of hire, or one year from the date of termination, whichever is later. A
person's employment eligibility must be re-verified if an employee's work authorization is about to expire.
2. You must comply with all federal, state, and local employment and payroll tax, withholding
and reporting requirements for all individuals who provide services in connection with the Contractor
Agreement.
3. You must comply with all applicable provisions of federal, state, and local laws, regulations,
and orders affecting safety and health including, without limitation, the Occupational Safety and Health Act.
4. You must comply with all federal, state, and local wage and hour laws, including but not
limited to, requirements relating to minimum wage and overtime, meal breaks and rest periods, as well as
applicable laws relating to child labor, workers compensation, unemployment insurance, statutory disability
and discrimination.
Your compliance with the Contractor Agreement, completion of this certificate, and operation of your
business in conformity with all applicable laws are required for your continued service as a USM contractor.
Please certify that your business complies with all of the above-listed contractual and legal requirements by
signing in the space below and returning this letter to:
USM, P.O. Box 2468, Southeastern, PA 19399, attention: Compliance Department or, you may fax this
certification to (484) 322-1620, attention: Compliance Department.
Thank you in advance for your timely attention to this serious matter.
USM, Inc.
THE UNDERSIGNED CERTIFIES THAT IT IS IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE LEGAL
REQUIREMENTS SPECIFIED IN THIS LETTER.
______________________________ _________________________
Company Name (please indicate d/b/a, if applicable) Date
______________________________ _________________________
Authorized Signature and Title Printed name of person signing


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

I didnt like reading that when they sent it to me
just seeing it made me pee a little


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## Showmestaterida (Dec 28, 2006)

Wonder how many lawyers it took to write that?


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

1 really big dik head lawyer and 400 underlingings


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

i thought some of you guys were exaggerating BUT that is some crazy sh*t


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

xtreem3d;889389 said:


> i thought some of you guys were exaggerating BUT that is some crazy sh*t


That's why i keep saying that there will be a lot of hardly used snow removal removal equipment being sold very cheap this spring.

That contract is ridiculous !


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## fourthcoastcont (Sep 17, 2009)

so far they have had nothing but problems here at the only 2 Walmarts with USM. SALT ONLY ........... both stores got sand. Potsdam NY got serviced 5 HOURS after they called. Both aren't in the contract......... One hour service and SALT ONLY

Frank R at his best, got to be the lowest price and have all the work (but NO SERVICE)


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

the guy here is going to try and plow a 400,000+ SF parking lot with one loader and one pick-up truck...no wonder why he was cheap...hell i could stick just one truck on the lot if they want to give me 10 hours lol


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## Bandit (Jan 5, 2005)

I drove by the WW that I plowed for 4 yrs in My bosses F 650 ( I retired and spent last winter in Az. ) @ 1:00 am to pick up My Daughter at work , and there were two older loaders w/14 ft. pushers parked in the lot. 
I can't wait to go by during a big storm when the store is open and watch the carnage .
Bob


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## 4700dan (Nov 20, 2008)

I went passed a Lowes the otherday and saw a bobcat track loader with an 8 foot pusher on it to plow 4-5 acer lot :laughing: :laughing:


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## johndeereguy (Oct 19, 2006)

I plowed a 8.5 acre lot today with Deere 328 with a 10 ft. Arctic, took 5 hours including stacking the snow and salting the lot. Not sure where everyone think you need 5 rigs to do these lots


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## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

5 hours would be unacceptable. Depending on what time the trigger hits, you could get your self in trouble. A lot should take no more than 2 to 2.5 hours to clear and salt. This gives plenty of time to finish the job before business opens. If you need 2 or 3 pieces of equipment, so be it. Plus if you have only 1 piece of equipment on site and it goes down, you could be in some deep doo doo. Time is of the essence.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Tiflawn;893454 said:


> 5 hours would be unacceptable. Depending on what time the trigger hits, you could get your self in trouble. A lot should take no more than 2 to 2.5 hours to clear and salt. This gives plenty of time to finish the job before business opens. If you need 2 or 3 pieces of equipment, so be it. Plus if you have only 1 piece of equipment on site and it goes down, you could be in some deep doo doo. Time is of the essence.


Really? 2 hours.



johndeereguy;893419 said:


> I plowed a 8.5 acre lot today with Deere 328 with a 10 ft. Arctic, took 5 hours including stacking the snow and salting the lot. Not sure where everyone think you need 5 rigs to do these lots


Good work, but your going to have your work cut out for you for the next couple of days.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

johndeereguy;893419 said:


> I plowed a 8.5 acre lot today with Deere 328 with a 10 ft. Arctic, took 5 hours including stacking the snow and salting the lot. Not sure where everyone think you need 5 rigs to do these lots


How many inches did you end up with?


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Crete, 
you cannot be talking in this thread!!! Its a Wally word thread and all you do is rip on the people who post on Walmart threads 

. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## bike5200 (Sep 4, 2007)

johndeereguy;893419 said:


> I plowed a 8.5 acre lot today with Deere 328 with a 10 ft. Arctic, took 5 hours including stacking the snow and salting the lot. Not sure where everyone think you need 5 rigs to do these lots


This is acceptable if you are charging by the hour


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Tiflawn;893454 said:


> 5 hours would be unacceptable. Depending on what time the trigger hits, you could get your self in trouble. A lot should take no more than 2 to 2.5 hours to clear and salt. This gives plenty of time to finish the job before business opens. If you need 2 or 3 pieces of equipment, so be it. Plus if you have only 1 piece of equipment on site and it goes down, you could be in some deep doo doo. Time is of the essence.


I'm in deep doo doo then, I should just throw in the towel now.


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## smoore45 (Oct 27, 2007)

SnoCRETE? CRETEbaby? You guys brothers or somethin'?


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## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

naturalgreen;888700 said:


> I didnt like reading that when they sent it to me
> just seeing it made me pee a little


And I threw up in my mouth a little while reading it. WOW


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Tiflawn;893454 said:


> 5 hours would be unacceptable. Depending on what time the trigger hits, you could get your self in trouble. A lot should take no more than 2 to 2.5 hours to clear and salt. This gives plenty of time to finish the job before business opens. If you need 2 or 3 pieces of equipment, so be it. Plus if you have only 1 piece of equipment on site and it goes down, you could be in some deep doo doo. Time is of the essence.


Good to see you have all the answers for someone 500 miles away from you, have no idea of the specs, service requirements, timing, etc, etc, etc.

What if he started at 10 PM?

What if it was a Saturday and not open til Monday?



bike5200;894016 said:


> This is acceptable if you are charging by the hour


See above, glad you guys have all the answers for something you have no clue about regarding details.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

bike5200;894016 said:


> This is acceptable if you are charging by the hour


Eh? .....................


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

bike5200;894016 said:


> This is acceptable if you are charging by the hour





Superior L & L;893712 said:


> Crete,
> you cannot be talking in this thread!!! Its a Wally word thread and all you do is rip on the people who post on Walmart threads
> 
> . :laughing::laughing::laughing:


Hey I got no problem with the discussion, just don't see why we need 400 threads about Walmart.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

johndeereguy;893419 said:


> I plowed a 8.5 acre lot today with Deere 328 with a 10 ft. Arctic, took 5 hours including stacking the snow and salting the lot. Not sure where everyone think you need 5 rigs to do these lots


true true but it's a little different in our region, when you're looking at 110"+ per season and snow here is always at 3-6 a.m., so what happens when you get a 6" storm at 6 a.m. and you need 5 hours to plow the store out? doesnt look good and is a pain. the lot here should have had two loaders, a skid and a p/u just for that purpose.


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## Lightningllc (Nov 23, 2009)

Just remember 1 thing when your dealing with a discount store you will have to do a discount deal, we have meijers in michigan and they do online procument, this is a joke, you put your bid in and then wait for the bidding day were every other company from east coast to west coast can bid on it. I mean bid cheaper and cheaper, If you get bidded lower then you have to go lower to get the win. I was bidding on a new meijers 3 acre plow, sidewalks went for $275 fixed price. salt was around $95 ton.

For those prices I could plow 10 resi's and make $350.

The industry is all about bidding lower AND LOWER, It has to stop we have to feed our famlies and grow our business's. Come on stick to your guns and don't go cheap.

Just so everyone know's you should be plowing for about $100 hr, salting profit should be around $75-90 ton. If you stick to these rules you will make money.


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## Lightningllc (Nov 23, 2009)

Skidsteers should produce around $ 100 - 125 hour with a 8-10' box , Loaders should get $125 min hr.

Just remember 1 thing I learned a long time ago, Going cheap is not good, because repairs are expensive.If you loweball and your trans goes out (um) where's your profit to fix it???? Or if you need a new truck cash is king , loans suck.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Lightningllc;894625 said:


> Skidsteers should produce around $ 100 - 125 hour with a 8-10' box , Loaders should get $125 min hr.
> 
> Just remember 1 thing I learned a long time ago, Going cheap is not good, because repairs are expensive.If you loweball and your trans goes out (um) where's your profit to fix it???? Or if you need a new truck cash is king , loans suck.


What in the world are you talking about? Expenses?

I thought everything was profit?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

redman6565;894590 said:


> true true but it's a little different in our region, when you're looking at 110"+ per season and *snow here is always at 3-6 a.m*., so what happens when you get a 6" storm at 6 a.m. and you need 5 hours to plow the store out? doesnt look good and is a pain. the lot here should have had two loaders, a skid and a p/u just for that purpose.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Wow.....I think I just got dumber, thanks.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

cretebaby;894697 said:


>


hahaha sorry it was early still. what i meant was what if snows between those times...


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## jdalton (Dec 9, 2009)

*Usm work*

I've worked for USM in differnet parts of the country and never had a problem with work or getting paid, I don't know what ya'll are talking about.


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

There is a percentage who have luck with them we just give our experiences. However it seems a small %.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

jdalton;897119 said:


> I've worked for USM in differnet parts of the country and never had a problem with work or getting paid, I don't know what ya'll are talking about.


J Dalton oh you must be that USM rep that called me yesterday :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

I run often... I also listen. Company A hires Company B which hires Company C. Company C does bad job which puts Company B in the middle. Company A still has the most to lose.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

Superior L & L;897453 said:


> J Dalton oh you must be that USM rep that called me yesterday :laughing::laughing::laughing:


:laughing:


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

Ha thats great math. because company A will just get a new C through B and B will say it was because C is a bad company when C is probably doing the job equal to the pay after B took their share and convinced A that they could get the same work from a new C for less money.
My last name is dalton also and I hated the 6 months I worked for USM it has been years so maybe I should let it go. Maybe I need to go to texas seems they are loved down there and dont take a year to pay like they do here. Wonder if word is out again how they treat (most) contractors and so they r looking for better PR. As said in 100 other threads there is a small number of people who were paid regularly and not screwed by usm while many r angry about the way it turned out working for them. Then there r alot of guys just pissed they lost their walmarts to them and company C is doing shtty work.


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## AGMI (Nov 26, 2009)

I know I am not an "addict" on here yet (with all the time I spend reading not posting, I could be), but JDalton has one post!!!! He claims he has worked for USM in different parts of the country. What a riot!!! Which parts? What did you do? Did your company service different parts of the country? Did you own the company? Did you read that contract?

Gotta be a USM rep...


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

naturalgreen;897539 said:


> Ha thats great math. because company A will just get a new C through B and B will say it was because C is a bad company when C is probably doing the job equal to the pay after B took their share and convinced A that they could get the same work from a new C for less money.
> My last name is dalton also and I hated the 6 months I worked for USM it has been years so maybe I should let it go. Maybe I need to go to texas seems they are loved down there and dont take a year to pay like they do here. Wonder if word is out again how they treat (most) contractors and so they r looking for better PR. As said in 100 other threads there is a small number of people who were paid regularly and not screwed by usm while many r angry about the way it turned out working for them. Then there r alot of guys just pissed they lost their walmarts to them and company C is doing shtty work.


haha sh*tty work is an under statement...i drove by our wal mart this morning, at 9 a.m. mind you after we had finished all of our routes and the ****** that trying to plow a 400,000 SF lot with just one (1) loader, had just cleaned one quarter of the lot, with random piles scattered all over. i have pics, i'll have to post them tomorrow or friday


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## AGMI (Nov 26, 2009)

ohhh....by the way...I heard from another guy who heard from another guy that USM works on 70% margins! Don't know if its true, but it seems accurate based on what they pay. Now, I am the first guy not to fault someone for turning a profit, but that is what I turn. I also have 6 trucks, 2 sanders, snowblowers out of the a**, and 5 skids and a compact loader. I also have an office, a yard, and all the bills that go with it. Maybe I am off on my numbers and I should be turning 95% margins. What does USM have?


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

AGMI;897562 said:


> I know I am not an "addict" on here yet (with all the time I spend reading not posting, I could be), but JDalton has one post!!!! He claims he has worked for USM in different parts of the country. What a riot!!! Which parts? What did you do? Did your company service different parts of the country? Did you own the company? Did you read that contract?
> 
> Gotta be a USM rep...


no whats funny is a guy from texas is commenting on USM in regards to snowplowing :laughing: :laughing:


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## AGMI (Nov 26, 2009)

redman6565;897578 said:


> no whats funny is a guy from texas is commenting on USM in regards to snowplowing :laughing: :laughing:


Funny. I didn't see that. All 3" per year...lol


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

AGMI;897582 said:


> Funny. I didn't see that. All 3" per year...lol


expert...:salute:


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

yeah im saying pr
they need some plowers they called the sht out of me and everyone else I know here


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

naturalgreen;897539 said:


> Ha thats great math. because company A will just get a new C through B and B will say it was because C is a bad company when C is probably doing the job equal to the pay after B took their share and convinced A that they could get the same work from a new C for less money.
> My last name is dalton also and I hated the 6 months I worked for USM it has been years so maybe I should let it go. Maybe I need to go to texas seems they are loved down there and dont take a year to pay like they do here. Wonder if word is out again how they treat (most) contractors and so they r looking for better PR. As said in 100 other threads there is a small number of people who were paid regularly and not screwed by usm while many r angry about the way it turned out working for them. Then there r alot of guys just pissed they lost their walmarts to them and company C is doing shtty work.


Actually, I contract with Company A the most and have for years. Recently Company B contacted me. I am just listening but honestly, I have a good reputation so what company B says' is no worry to me.

If the PR is so bad why not contact Company A directly?

As I said before, I am listening... You assumed to who I was listening too and you know what they say when you Assume?


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

duekster;897646 said:


> Actually, I contract with Company A the most and have for years. Recently Company B contacted me. I am just listening but honestly, I have a good reputation so what company B says' is no worry to me.
> 
> If the PR is so bad why not contact Company A directly?
> 
> As I said before, I am listening... You assumed to who I was listening too and you know what they say when you Assume?


no assumption and most of what is said here is passng, no hard feelings but he's right about a lot of people being upset about the whole situation and this site is probably the last place for someone to show up and toot USM's horn about how great of a company they are


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

redman6565;897578 said:


> no whats funny is a guy from Texas is commenting on USM in regards to snowplowing :laughing: :laughing:


Which is why I said no thanks unless they wanted to give me a seasonal contract to pay for my contingencies cause we get so few events. Nonetheless, Houston did get some snow and in Dallas we do get a few from time to time.

Global warming and all you know.

Thanks for being so social you guys.

You guys need to be very clear, aggrigators are everywhere, so are low ballers. It is a fact of life. The trick is to realize that you have to bid to make a fair profit or else you will not stay in business long. I have to assume these aggrigators will charge extra for their services cause I am not going to reduce my wages / prices for them. I am already priced fair.

I know my expenses, I know my burden and so on an so forth. I don't know snow plowing and if the likes of you are an example, thank god I live in the south away from all you Yankees.

Have a nice day.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

duekster;897690 said:


> Which is why I said no thanks unless they wanted to give me a seasonal contract to pay for my contingencies cause we get so few events. Nonetheless, Houston did get some snow and in Dallas we do get a few from time to time.
> 
> Global warming and all you know.
> 
> ...


now now now, the civil war ended and the north won, you can't change that. did you read the post above about how i was kidding? if you can't take a joke or jab you're in the wrong place. i get my a$$ ripped on from time to time and probably more often then i realize, so don't take it so personally


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

I dunno that I ever defended Company B. 


However, What many people don't understand is many "property management companies" are 3rd party contractors. Rarely will you ever do business with the actual owner of a property. Often the actual owner is not a single entity. Real Property is often a very small part of a portfolio mangers assets. 

In this case, the owners core business is not the property nor do they understand properly management. Company B has perhaps sold them a bill of goods, perhaps not. Given the level of professionalism posted here, I find it hard to judge either way. My bad for coming here to find out.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

redman6565;897714 said:


> now now now, the civil war ended and the north won, you can't change that. did you read the post above about how i was kidding? if you can't take a joke or jab you're in the wrong place. i get my a$$ ripped on from time to time and probably more often then i realize, so don't take it so personally


From the sounds of it, you are getting your ass kicked by an Arkansas company.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

duekster;897722 said:


> I dunno that I ever defended Company B.
> 
> However, What many people don't understand is many "property management companies" are 3rd party contractors. Rarely will you ever do business with the actual owner of a property. Often the actual owner is not a single entity. Real Property is often a very small part of a portfolio mangers assets.
> 
> In this case, the owners core business is not the property nor do they understand properly management. Company B has perhaps sold them a bill of goods, perhaps not. Given the level of professionalism posted here, I find it hard to judge either way. My bad for coming here to find out.


i would argue that depends...i do a chain of gas stations in which i work directly for the owner. i also plow Tops supermarkets, which i work directly for the owner and the plaza in the background of my pic that has i lowe's/target, etc., i work directly for the owner of the whole lot as well...unless i'm in the minority i think most people still have contacts with property owners


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

duekster;897734 said:


> From the sounds of it, you are getting your ass kicked by an Arkansas company.


it won't be the first time that i get ripped on here and it wont be the last but thats why i love this site because the guys are honest and they'll tell you exactly how it is, no sugar coating of bullsh*tting


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

redman6565;897738 said:


> i would argue that depends...i do a chain of gas stations in which i work directly for the owner. i also plow Tops supermarkets, which i work directly for the owner and the plaza in the background of my pic that has i Lowe's/target, etc., i work directly for the owner of the whole lot as well...unless I'm in the minority i think most people still have contacts with property owners


You may very well. I would likely bet you most of the real property at the gas station ( if a large brand ) is actually a holding company that owns the land separately from the actual oil company. If you need to know more about environmental laws and liability just ask.

I am not sure how Lowes has their real estate set up. Most company's keep real property separate from operations at some level. Some even do a development, sell and lease back to free up capital.

You as the vendor would not know the difference.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

Lowe's rents out there, that's how i know but Lowe's is like that in a few places, where they're renting the store property rather than buying so they could be subject to whoever the land owner chooses to plow


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

duekster;897760 said:


> You may very well. I would likely bet you most of the real property at the gas station ( if a large brand ) is actually a holding company that owns the land separately from the actual oil company. If you need to know more about environmental laws and liability just ask.
> 
> I am not sure how Lowes has their real estate set up. Most company's keep real property separate from operations at some level. Some even do a development, sell and lease back to free up capital.
> 
> You as the vendor would not know the difference.


Are you a USM rep? Affiliated with them or some other prop management co.? What brings someone from Texas to a snowplow forum, and make their first appearance in a USM bashing thread?...just curious


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

snocrete;897779 said:


> Are you a USM rep? Affiliated with them or some other prop management co.? What brings someone from Texas to a snowplow forum, and make their first appearance in a USM bashing thread?...just curious


I thought I responded to that. No I am not a USM rep. I am a landscaper with a contract with one of their clients. They approached me about a plow bid ( I know crazy ) as a contengency. I came here to learn and met a friendly crowd.

I don't know how any thing I posted was defending them as all. I am saying that 3rd parties are a fact of life and you have to hold to your guns and bid correctly based on your own cost and overhead. Lowballers are a fact of life regardless of the fact of middle men or not.


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

Except for large chains there a million churches and independently owned plazas. I deal with almost all owners here in missouri where we were not even sure if we are yanks because why take a side. If you are gonna get upset on a snow site because we tell you our experiences then why read it. Lawn care is way diff than snow removal and I did the landscaping for usm and it was a headache that I do not need to repeat. Snow is unpredictable and can be extremely hard on equip and manpower. a push mower can do a lot and you have all week. If it breaks get another one for 200
a plow truck is hard to replace and if the profits are low we r getting killed that is why everyone has their hair up. I have no snow so i should be pissed but I have hash to keep me sane. If they work for u do usm forever and make money but if you cant take our opinions get out your push mower and get to work and read lawnsite. I will see you there on the usm bashing forums.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes the Catholic Church is the largest single property owner in the world.


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

up here out of texas we have other religions too
I do work for symbiot doing bank plowing a company B and I love them.
They are what a management company should be IMO.
sure they r less money than I was getting but did not give me the headaches of USM
they contacted me when they took over the banks and worked with me on a price because the bank liked my previous service.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

naturalgreen;897798 said:


> Except for large chains there a million churches and independently owned plazas. I deal with almost all owners here in missouri where we were not even sure if we are yanks because why take a side. If you are gonna get upset on a snow site because we tell you our experiences then why read it. Lawn care is way diff than snow removal and I did the landscaping for usm and it was a headache that I do not need to repeat. Snow is unpredictable and can be extremely hard on equip and manpower. a push mower can do a lot and you have all week. If it breaks get another one for 200
> a plow truck is hard to replace and if the profits are low we r getting killed that is why everyone has their hair up. I have no snow so i should be pissed but I have hash to keep me sane. If they work for u do usm forever and make money but if you cant take our opinions get out your push mower and get to work and read lawnsite. I will see you there on the usm bashing forums.


I have been on Lawnsite before and have not posted in a while. I have not pushed a mower in a long time. I have employees to do that for me.

I don't pretend to know snow, I don't run $200 mowers either, and to assume I do is wrong and ignorant.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

naturalgreen;897809 said:


> up here out of texas we have other religions too
> I do work for symbiot doing bank plowing a company B and I love them.
> They are what a management company should be IMO.
> sure they r less money than I was getting but did not give me the headaches of USM
> they contacted me when they took over the banks and worked with me on a price because the bank liked my previous service.


I did not say the Catholic Church was the largest private property owner in Texas.

I did not say company B was good or bad, I said it was a fact of life.


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

I am generally wrong and for sure ignorant but my point was the difference is I can cut a lawn with a 60 rider and be done in 10 min or I can push in two hours but I have all week to get it done.
If it snows 30 inches in 36 hours and truck breaks on hour 1 people will not be annoyed like when they have a long lawn they will be pissed because they cant get out or into walmart to buy baby food


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

no I assumed u were implying that the churches were catholic thus a large corporation with no property owner to contact.


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

We know that it is a fact of life
we have a zen forum im sure we just wanna gripe about experiences we have had good and bad.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

naturalgreen;897826 said:


> I am generally wrong and for sure ignorant but my point was the difference is I can cut a lawn with a 60 rider and be done in 10 min or I can push in two hours but I have all week to get it done.
> If it snows 30 inches in 36 hours and truck breaks on hour 1 people will not be annoyed like when they have a long lawn they will be pissed because they cant get out or into walmart to buy baby food


Down here we go out and buy baby food before it snows. 

I know there is a difference, it just seems I did not come to the right place to learn about it. Nonetheless it did not take long for me to shoot down an incidence contract given the capital involved. Company B did not want a season contract in Texas for some reason. :laughing:


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

up here I dont have a baby thank god.
so i dont need food for it and I can live on coffee and work.
i dont know what you wanted to learn us geniouses couldnt help you with
snow can make you money or break your bank
but it will break your back and in texas u get less snow than here so maybe take some peoples words as wisdom.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

idk if its as much that as it is, just dont get on a company bashing thread and be the minority group trying to stick up for Company A, B, C, Z, BB, NF or whatever. there is nothing anyone is going to tell me that changes my opinion about how USM conducts business


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

naturalgreen;897840 said:


> up here I dont have a baby thank god.
> so i dont need food for it and I can live on coffee and work.
> i dont know what you wanted to learn us geniouses couldnt help you with
> snow can make you money or break your bank
> but it will break your back and in texas u get less snow than here so maybe take some peoples words as wisdom.


I was aproached about a de-ice / snow contract so I investigated.

purplebou

It seems company C is concerned about Global warming and the recent snow in Texas. We seem to slip and fall alot in the stuff.


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## naturalgreen (Dec 6, 2008)

yeah im bored


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

naturalgreen;897864 said:


> yeah im bored


I don't recall defending anyone.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

duekster;897795 said:


> I thought I responded to that. No I am not a USM rep. I am a landscaper with a contract with one of their clients. They approached me about a plow bid ( I know crazy ) as a contengency. I came here to learn and met a friendly crowd.
> 
> I don't know how any thing I posted was defending them as all. I am saying that 3rd parties are a fact of life and you have to hold to your guns and bid correctly based on your own cost and overhead. Lowballers are a fact of life regardless of the fact of middle men or not.


hey duekster, welcome to plowsite, I think you jumped into the wrong thread, lol, most of the guys on here are great guys, and a wealth of experience, however, right now many contractors are feeling royally screwed by USM, because USM is asking them to bid at margins that are 1/3 of what they were paid last year, these companies are professionals that know what the deal is with doing Walmarts, and so know how rediculus USM's prices are, also USM's contract, which is the single scarriest, one sided, self serving, POS i have ever seen. USM is asking to get someone killed by putting the snow contracts so low that they cannot be done to a safe standard. Would you want to be in a plane flown by a guy paid $6 per hour, (and that $6 dollars had to pay for the fuel and maintenance of the plane), I WOULDN'T!!!


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

buckwheat_la;897875 said:


> hey duekster, welcome to plowsite, I think you jumped into the wrong thread, lol, most of the guys on here are great guys, and a wealth of experience, however, right now many contractors are feeling royally screwed by USM, because USM is asking them to bid at margins that are 1/3 of what they were paid last year, these companies are professionals that know what the deal is with doing Walmarts, and so know how rediculus USM's prices are, also USM's contract, which is the single scarriest, one sided, self serving, POS i have ever seen. USM is asking to get someone killed by putting the snow contracts so low that they cannot be done to a safe standard. Would you want to be in a plane flown by a guy paid $6 per hour, (and that $6 dollars had to pay for the fuel and maintenance of the plane), I WOULDN'T!!!


I agree, If you look at my very first post. I implied if what you say is true then the company that has the most to lose is the ones that hired USM.

I know what it is like to have to bright lights shown in my eyes.

I have never done business with USM or any other 3rd party service manager. I have done work for 3rd party property management companies. Most Real Property is managed by 3rd parties and not the asset company. Many times the parking garage is managed by a different company than the office building.

You are right this is my first thread. Perhaps not the best one to start on, but the one that most closely matches the reason I came to the site if you get my drift.

Haha get it, drift...


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

with a sense of humor like that you are going to fit right in, Mark where are you???, and to be fair there are many 3rd party property managers that are great to deal with, pay well, and keep you on your toes by insisting on good service. Also they are a great buffer to clients that are unreasonable or difficult to deal with.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

redman6565;897851 said:


> idk if its as much that as it is, just dont get on a company bashing thread and be the minority group trying to stick up for Company A, B, C, Z, BB, NF or whatever. there is nothing anyone is going to tell me that changes my opinion about how USM conducts business


Again, I don't recall sticking up for anyone except myself.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

duekster;897906 said:


> Again, I don't recall sticking up for anyone except myself.


eh not so much you, just in general


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

buckwheat_la;897901 said:


> with a sense of humor like that you are going to fit right in, Mark where are you???, and to be fair there are many 3rd party property managers that are great to deal with, pay well, and keep you on your toes by insisting on good service. Also they are a great buffer to clients that are unreasonable or difficult to deal with.


First thanks for the warm welcome.

Most property management companies know they depend on their vendors to get the jobs done. They also know that low cost often equals poor service which also equals low client satisfaction. However, many retail sites are destination sites as opposed to commercial office space which has tenants that have white collar workers.

I know which I prefer. I still alway want to keep my options open, listen and learn.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

duekster;897923 said:


> First thanks for the warm welcome.QUOTE]
> 
> we're always friendly around here...wink wink :laughing:


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

redman6565;897914 said:


> eh not so much you, just in general


No, I don't think I did. I don't advocate lowering prices for anyone except maybe a buddy who needs your help on a subcontracting job knowing he can help you down the road later.

I think if you go back, you will see I said bid fairly regardless of the fact there is a middle man or not because more often than not there is a middle man involved.

If this USM company does not pay then they will die on the vine soon and the company that hired them has the most to loose.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

redman6565;897930 said:


> duekster;897923 said:
> 
> 
> > First thanks for the warm welcome.QUOTE]
> ...


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

buckwheat_la;897901 said:


> with a sense of humor like that you are going to fit right in, Mark where are you???, and to be fair there are many 3rd party property managers that are great to deal with, pay well, and keep you on your toes by insisting on good service. Also they are a great buffer to clients that are unreasonable or difficult to deal with.


shouldnt you be out plowing and hogging up all the snow? lol


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

redman6565;897953 said:


> shouldnt you be out plowing and hogging up all the snow? lol


nope, all my plowing is done, we are hauling snow out of the banks tonight, employee work, although i have some great pics i am going to post tonight, also looking forward to another 4-6 inches on saturday (way better then 1-2 feet)


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## Cover Guy (Sep 30, 2009)

USM called the guy I sub for to day about one of the walmarts he has done for years but of course lost to USM this year and asked him if he was interested still in plowing it he told them full price and they said thats fine garented payment in 42 days they must have not been able to find any one to do it cheap


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

buckwheat_la;897959 said:


> nope, all my plowing is done, we are hauling snow out of the banks tonight, employee work, although i have some great pics i am going to post tonight, also looking forward to another 4-6 inches on saturday (way better then 1-2 feet)


rake in the money while you can...payup

they're talking about 20"+ here in a 24-hour span starting in a couple hours...we;ll see how accurate they are


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

Cover Guy;897963 said:


> USM called the guy I sub for to day about one of the walmarts he has done for years but of course lost to USM this year and asked him if he was interested still in plowing it he told them full price and they said thats fine garented payment in 42 days they must have not been able to find any one to do it cheap


depends on your market, how saturated it is with competition and how much accumulation you see in a season


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## Cover Guy (Sep 30, 2009)

depends on your market, how saturated it is with competition and how much accumulation you see in a season

Avarege Snow Fall 30" The guy I Plow For Is One Of The Largest In The Area We Did Have Two Other Walmarts Havent Heard Any Thang About Them No Big Deal He Picked Up Some Other Stuff And He Is Also One Of The highest Priced In The Area So Were Not Low ballers


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

redman6565;897967 said:


> depends on your market, how saturated it is with competition and how much accumulation you see in a season


Yes but you still have to stick to your guns on price. It is hard to do cause as you said, to mow grass all you need is a $200.00 mower and a pick up truck. The equipement cost can be low in my industry and I live on a southern border state. 

I am sure competition only exisit up north since everyone likes snow so much


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

duekster;897985 said:


> Yes but you still have to stick to your guns on price. It is hard to do cause as you said, to mow grass all you need is a $200.00 mower and a pick up truck. The equipement cost can be low in my industry and I live on a southern border state.
> 
> I am sure competition only exisit up north since everyone likes snow so much


true. its not the pricing so much that bothers me, its the whole middle man attitude. there are always going to be guys plowing for less than me, that is inevitable. i have different costs and different profit needs and im very comfortable with being under bid. what i hate is this whole middle-man culture thats coming about. it'd be one thing is USM got a bunch of contracts, services some and subbed some out, but they don't do sh*t other than beat the hell out of local contractors and basically turn them against each other. i dont see a legitimate use for these companies and i just see it as basically, Wal-Mart is getting lazy. it doesnt take much for a store manager to pick a snowplow guy, its not like we take up hours upon hours of these store managers time.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

redman6565;897992 said:


> true. its not the pricing so much that bothers me, its the whole middle man attitude. there are always going to be guys plowing for less than me, that is inevitable. i have different costs and different profit needs and I'm very comfortable with being under bid. what i hate is this whole middle-man culture thats coming about. it'd be one thing is USM got a bunch of contracts, services some and subbed some out, but they don't do sh*t other than beat the hell out of local contractors and basically turn them against each other. i don't see a legitimate use for these companies and i just see it as basically, Wal-Mart is getting lazy. it doesnt take much for a store manager to pick a snowplow guy, its not like we take up hours upon hours of these store managers time.


I can not speak about USM cause don't know much about them but they approached me. I can agree that the complaint I heard about them here, is the same one I hear about many other similar companies. None of which I have done business with directly.

The move toward 3rd parties is growing. It achieves several objectives.

One is it lets the company focus on their business not managing real estate services.

Many Fortune 500 companies own corporate real estate but does not manage it.

Two, is liability - by hiring a "professional" management company they can show best practices and hopefully lower limits of liability.

Three, and not sure if this applies to Wal-mart but when CAM (common area maintenance) charges are reviewed, they are less likely to be audits by tenants when provided by a 3rd party.

Think of in-house snow plowing vs contracted snow plowing when tenants audit cost.

There are many audit firms that will contract with tenants for a slice of what they recover.

I really don't know much about the particulars of this relationship or these companies but I do know commerical real estate concepts fairly well.

I don't know if this helps. Perhaps we can talk some time on the phone.


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## cseutah (Nov 24, 2009)

redman6565;897992 said:


> true. its not the pricing so much that bothers me, its the whole middle man attitude. there are always going to be guys plowing for less than me, that is inevitable. i have different costs and different profit needs and im very comfortable with being under bid. what i hate is this whole middle-man culture thats coming about. it'd be one thing is USM got a bunch of contracts, services some and subbed some out, but they don't do sh*t other than beat the hell out of local contractors and basically turn them against each other. i dont see a legitimate use for these companies and i just see it as basically, Wal-Mart is getting lazy. it doesnt take much for a store manager to pick a snowplow guy, its not like we take up hours upon hours of these store managers time.


redman i agree. i had the contracts on my supercenters for the last 10 years they didn't have to work too hard to have things covered. and if they are looking at costs i plowed snow for them 10 years ago for the same as i did last year, never had to raise my prices they where by the hour and always wanted extra, extra, extra. so their cost where associated with their demands, plain and simple. i didn't have to raise my prices i just had to free up the equipment to be at their beckon call. and if i could figure out how to upload photos on this i could show you that they either lowered their standards or someone is getting screwed, day after the storm still covered in ice with ricks or snow on about every row of parking.


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## cseutah (Nov 24, 2009)

duekster;897985 said:


> Yes but you still have to stick to your guns on price. It is hard to do cause as you said, to mow grass all you need is a $200.00 mower and a pick up truck. The equipement cost can be low in my industry and I live on a southern border state.
> 
> I am sure competition only exisit up north since everyone likes snow so much


duekster competition is everywhere, alot of companies work in the same range of rates, you do have those that own one truck plow for themselves don't have alot of overhead that try to work cheaper than the rest. thats really no big deal on a property like the corner gas station, but when you have national companies that are hiring those same "low ballers" and putting them on accounts they shouldn't be qualified to do. you have larger companies with more overhead because they have the equipment. for example we had 1 supercenter that was large enough and busy enough that we had 3 loaders with 14' pushers, a skiddie for docks etc, a plow truck, a 3 man sidewalk crew, and its own 3 ton spreader. now it is being plowed with a 2 wd cabover plow truck and a skiddie 17 hours after there was enough snow to start plowing they are still working on it. is this qualified in your book?? so therefore now you have a bunch of disgruntled contractors who have invested a fortune into equipment to service a contract or contracts that at the last minute they don't have any longer unless they are willing to break themselves to try.
and i would expect you can respect this if you bought a $15,000 walker mower to service the local grocer and someone took it from you that had a yard sale special mower and couldn't give them the service that you had for years, now even better have that person call you and offer you half price for you to mow it for them.


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## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

well duekster's right, liability purposes I can see why they switch other than if you have a single contractor that has been plowing for multiple years and has not had an incident...then i would think that the store should have the say. USM's role should be an advisement role, Wal-Mart should dictate that USM makes 5% (or whatever the price may be but make it a set price so that they can't beat the living piss out of each contrator) of what the contractor's price is...i.e. you bid $30,000 seasonal, you get 30k USM gets $1,500.00 to be an adivsor and the store manager should have the final decision.


now theres a system that works for everyone. wal-mart has a "professional" advice, yet the store managers still get to keep "their guy" and we don't have to resort to cannibalism in our industry


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

bump for a friend


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## 4700dan (Nov 20, 2008)

Has anyone posted pictures yet of any WalMarts being plowed by the lowballers, oh by the way we have a large contractor here that signed with USM hum, Enviro______.


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## northeastrealty (Nov 9, 2009)

*Brilliantly Put!!!*

:salute:


cseutah;898827 said:


> duekster competition is everywhere, alot of companies work in the same range of rates, you do have those that own one truck plow for themselves don't have alot of overhead that try to work cheaper than the rest. thats really no big deal on a property like the corner gas station, but when you have national companies that are hiring those same "low ballers" and putting them on accounts they shouldn't be qualified to do. you have larger companies with more overhead because they have the equipment. for example we had 1 supercenter that was large enough and busy enough that we had 3 loaders with 14' pushers, a skiddie for docks etc, a plow truck, a 3 man sidewalk crew, and its own 3 ton spreader. now it is being plowed with a 2 wd cabover plow truck and a skiddie 17 hours after there was enough snow to start plowing they are still working on it. is this qualified in your book?? so therefore now you have a bunch of disgruntled contractors who have invested a fortune into equipment to service a contract or contracts that at the last minute they don't have any longer unless they are willing to break themselves to try.
> and i would expect you can respect this if you bought a $15,000 walker mower to service the local grocer and someone took it from you that had a yard sale special mower and couldn't give them the service that you had for years, now even better have that person call you and offer you half price for you to mow it for them.


Well Said!


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

4700dan;900491 said:


> Has anyone posted pictures yet of any WalMarts being plowed by the lowballers, oh by the way we have a large contractor here that signed with USM hum, Enviro______.


But there the god around here LOL


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## cseutah (Nov 24, 2009)

northeastrealty;900932 said:


> :salute:
> 
> Well Said!


thanx northeastrealty we lost 6 supercenters to guys that dont have the equipment to service these places, and i have over $1,000,000.00 worth of equipment that was purchased for servicing these accounts and cant do it for the pennies i was offered.


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## ACA L&L (Jan 5, 2007)

So....maybe wally world big wigs have already taken into consideration that the new guy may not be as qualified, have the right equipment for each location, will not do the best job, or a job at all, but still decided that hey f it, snow melts eventually. I worked for wal mart loss prevention as i grew my lawn care company many years ago, they would make stupid but informed decisions. Meaning they know what they were doing at all times. In this case they are choosing to not pay what it costs to clear the lot in a safe and timely manner and to prevent any possible accidents from occurring during business hours. Alot of places just dont care, walgreens, lowes, home depot..............now wal mart has joined the "we just increased our end of year bonus by 38%" And each store bonuses separately. Meaning whatever the store saves on spending will directly effect the employees bonus. ....wal mart has officially become a bottom feeder....


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## mcdon230185 (Jan 16, 2010)

*Usm*



Xforce 1;866357 said:


> I see all of this on here about them and they are calling me wanting bids and from what I have read on the contract and on here, I'm looking the other way.
> 
> Does anyone currently work under them or have worked under them to give any feedback on how they do business. I checked them out on the BBB and they have an A+ reading.


They do have work for snow contractors but their contracts do not have language regarding pay dates. I have been waiting 60+ days for payment.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

mcdon230185;963950 said:


> They do have work for snow contractors but their contracts do not have language regarding pay dates. I have been waiting 60+ days for payment.


So you invoiced for snow work before Nov 15th?


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## mcdon230185 (Jan 16, 2010)

*Usm*



fourthcoastcont;890964 said:


> so far they have had nothing but problems here at the only 2 Walmarts with USM. SALT ONLY ........... both stores got sand. Potsdam NY got serviced 5 HOURS after they called. Both aren't in the contract......... One hour service and SALT ONLY
> 
> Frank R at his best, got to be the lowest price and have all the work (but NO SERVICE)


I was servicing the sidewalks for Best Buy next to Great Northern Mall, located in Clay, NY. I had to cancel the contract with USM because they are terrible about paying. However, they still want me to service the Rite-Aids and Walmarts for the upcoming mowing season. Itold them got to ______.


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## mcdon230185 (Jan 16, 2010)

Fellow snow removers, stay away from USM!!!!! I was just screwed by them. If I ever do work for them again, there must be language in the contract that payment will be received in 30 days or less; and if litigation is needed USM will be responsible for all attorney fees.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

mcdon230185;963996 said:


> Fellow snow removers, stay away from USM!!!!! I was just screwed by them. If I ever do work for them again, there must be language in the contract that payment will be received in 30 days or less; and if litigation is needed USM will be responsible for all attorney fees.


i am sorry to hear that, USM's contract is downright SCARY


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## 4700dan (Nov 20, 2008)

USM, I can't tell you guys how many posts were listed warning everyone about them but alot of you guys thought either you were going to get richpayup or you thought all of us other contractors where full of crap, but if you signed on and did not heed the warning don't come crying now :laughing:


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## JKMATHIEU (Oct 19, 2009)

4700dan;964199 said:


> USM, I can't tell you guys how many posts were listed warning everyone about them but alot of you guys thought either you were going to get richpayup or you thought all of us other contractors where full of crap, but if you signed on and did not heed the warning don't come crying now :laughing:


AMEN to that!!!!!!!


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## robjets (Dec 12, 2009)

What is USM?


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

aca l&l;901335 said:


> so....maybe wally world big wigs have already taken into consideration that the new guy may not be as qualified, have the right equipment for each location, will not do the best job, or a job at all, but still decided that hey f it, snow melts eventually. I worked for wal mart loss prevention as i grew my lawn care company many years ago, they would make stupid but informed decisions. Meaning they know what they were doing at all times. In this case they are choosing to not pay what it costs to clear the lot in a safe and timely manner and to prevent any possible accidents from occurring during business hours. Alot of places just dont care, walgreens, lowes, home depot..............now wal mart has joined the "we just increased our end of year bonus by 38%" and each store bonuses separately. Meaning whatever the store saves on spending will directly effect the employees bonus. ....wal mart has officially become a bottom feeder....


ding ding ding ding ding

Finally someone posts the real situation. Walmart is not stupid. They dont make dumb off-the-cuff decisions. No salesman is going to be able to "sell" walmart.
USM as much as many hate them, is not a stupid company either and you better believe they are qualified to do what they do if they were accepted by Walmart and on such a large scale.

We see a "lousy job"

They see.....No loss in sales. And save millions across the board.
They see complete transfer of risk from Walmart themselves to USM which USM then transfers to contractor.

Its not about the "stores looking nice"

Its about saving money on store overhead. Plain and simple.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

robjets;965617 said:


> What is USM?


U.S. Maintenance


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## robjets (Dec 12, 2009)

thanks you


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

well we havnt seen a dime yet from them this year... go figure.. i know theyre a ptia some times but this year is worse.

Theyve sent us denial letters suddenly for ..

suddenly about 3 weeks ago, it was we need your packet resigned.. we moved from ventura CA to norristown PA and dont have your paperwork... THEY lost it so theyre now not obligated to pay us? wtf

Then theyre jerking around over insurances, we have all of them. They have all of them.

Then theyre rejecting our i 9 forms for employees and employee list because we didnt have everyones SS# listed.

So then i get i-9 forms resigned by employees and resend in. They reject a bunch again, because theyre putting DL# in column A not B and SS card # in column C. :/

I mean then i get a phone call, lady sounds like her dog just died, she just crapped her pants, just lost her job and the worlds about to end. i mean she sounded so freking DOWN i almost lost it by then lol. Just totally ignorant and not caring about her stupid job.

I still have not re-sent in our employee list and resigned i-9s because i coudlnt get hold of one employee and my brother is away and need his still. So i just took my brother off the employee list and will get my last guy to sign off and resend them all in.

We invoiced them for work from December 6th, 20th, 22nd, 24th, 29th and 30th.... they have 45 day net terms, no check yet :/ Theyre "holding our money they say", of course they are and theyre not going to let us become "compliant" with them until next year probably. I know theyre a jerkey company sometimes but this is becoming too much of a pita especially with having to call in services in 24hrs to get a phone confirm #, invoice them still and hope to be paid :/


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## augerandblade (Jan 17, 2009)

They must have "in house" conferences/seminars as how to delay payment to their subs therefore enabling them to invest or collect interest on "borrowed money"/ I used to work for a outfit up heretymusic that manages large building projects etc and they were "professional " at using what ever legal tactics/requests they could use to delay payment, even if it was only for a month.


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## bike5200 (Sep 4, 2007)

Ramairfreak98ss;966615 said:


> well we havnt seen a dime yet from them this year... go figure.. i know theyre a ptia some times but this year is worse.
> 
> Theyve sent us denial letters suddenly for ..
> 
> ...


I have been reading these threads and it is hard to believe a large company would do business the way USM does. This is something a two two year old kid would do.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

When you provide them with what they require in the proper format that they require. Then start the clock. If in 45 days you haven't been paid. Then they are jerking you around.

Right now it sounds like they are posting on "nationalmgrsite" about a contractor who is jerkin them around with paperwork.

You signed their contract that states very clear the requirements to get paid. You have not met those requirements. Its not like they sprung this on you after the fact.

You claim they are jerking you around when youre whole post talks about how you did not submit them the required documents.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

procut1;966940 said:


> Right now it sounds like they are posting on "nationalmgrsite" about a contractor who is jerkin them around with paperwork.


LMAO, Yes, I wonder if they are talking about Ramair?


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## hlntoiz (Jan 13, 2009)

4700dan;964199 said:


> USM, I can't tell you guys how many posts were listed warning everyone about them but alot of you guys thought either you were going to get richpayup or you thought all of us other contractors where full of crap, but if you signed on and did not heed the warning don't come crying now :laughing:


So many warnings and businesses still get sucked in with promises of big $. With big $ comes big expenses. All I can say is you better have enough cash flow to float those expenses while you wait for payments.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Ramairfreak98ss;966615 said:


> Then theyre rejecting our i 9 forms for employees and employee list because we didnt have everyones SS# listed.
> 
> So then i get i-9 forms resigned by employees and resend in. They reject a bunch again, because theyre putting DL# in column A not B and SS card # in column C. :/
> 
> I still have not re-sent in our employee list and resigned i-9s because i coudlnt get hold of one employee and my brother is away and need his still. So i just took my brother off the employee list and will get my last guy to sign off and resend them all in.


Youve got employees out driving equipment and vehicles around, on the payroll, and you dont have SS#'s and DL#'s?????

I wouldn't pay you either, if you sent me half-azzed paperwork, like you said you did.

Think about what happens if you get caught employing an illegal...
Think about what happens if they sub a company employing an illegal...

Get your schitt together, get legal, and get paid.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Dont get me wrong. Read my previous posts. I am by no means a fan of USM.

I will not sign their contract for snow work and I will not work for their prices.

However.

I dont for one second believe they operate by "screwing contractors out of payment" Meaning by not paying for legitimate work.

They have payment terms and rules. They have hoops to jump through. And yes, they all in my opinion suck. They have holdback clauses, they have rebates. All again that suck.

But its ALL SPELLED OUT IN THE CONTRACT.

Those terms ARE AGREED TO.

I believe they follow the contract to the T.

If you dont have your paperwork in on time....Or you dont provide a document. Or you dont call in a service.....And the contract says those are reasons you wont be paid....>Then you wont be paid.

These corporations are not stupid. If USM had a history of screwing vendors, walmart would not have anything to do with them. Plain and simple.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Here is an example in simple terms of a USM contract.

Im USM

Job description: Mow my lawn once a week and drop off a 20 ounce pepsi on my doorstep.
Ill pay you every 60 days.

Contract clause:

In order to be paid you must fulfill ALL the contract terms exactly as stated. Failure to fulfill those contract terms regardless of reason will result in non-payment of that months invoice.

4 weeks in a row you mow my lawn. 3 weeks you leave the pepsi for me. 1 week you forget the pepsi.

I am entitled to NOT PAY YOU ANYTHING for that entire month.

You can post that "Im screwing you out of money"
Then I post "You signed the contract agreeing IN ADVANCE to those terms"

There ya go.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

procut1;967229 said:


> Here is an example in simple terms of a USM contract.
> 
> Im USM
> 
> ...


And then you can go to arbitration,,, over a Pepsi. Good times.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

hoskm01;967129 said:


> Youve got employees out driving equipment and vehicles around, on the payroll, and you dont have SS#'s and DL#'s?????
> 
> I wouldn't pay you either, if you sent me half-azzed paperwork, like you said you did.
> 
> ...


Where does Ram say that he doesn't have their SS and DL #'s?

Bit of a leap to say is help is illegal.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

procut1;967229 said:


> Here is an example in simple terms of a USM contract.
> 
> Im USM
> 
> ...


yeah, it does suck, but lets be honest, if they push all these rules onto contractors until it is impossible to achieve but people need to depend on these contracts to survive, what are they supose to do. Personally i want USM to be SUED into the stone age.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

cretebaby;967284 said:


> Where does Ram say that he doesn't have their SS and DL #'s?


If payment is "waiting" on his I-9's to be filled out and sent in, he shouldn't be waiting around for people to find their SS cards, fill out the form, and bring it back signed. Give them the form, filled out, have them sign it, and mail it off. Otherwise, theres no room to complain if these things were required by USM and they weren't checked for accuracy and completeness before being sent in.



cretebaby;967284 said:


> Bit of a leap to say is help is illegal.


I never said his help was illegal. The point is that some companies DO employ illegals (more so in the west and south) and will falsify documents to try and slip it by places like USM, hoping they wont look too closely at them. USM is simply covering their butts by doing what every company is required, by law, to do with subs.

Dont put poorly written words in my mouth.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

hoskm01;967317 said:


> Dont put poorly written words in my mouth.


These words ame out of your own mouth. 



hoskm01;967129 said:


> *Youve got employees out driving equipment and vehicles around, on the payroll, and you dont have SS#'s and DL#'s*?????
> 
> Think about what happens *if you get caught employing an illegal*..
> 
> Get your schitt together*, get legal*, and get paid.


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## diggerman (May 19, 2001)

I work for USM and have for years. It can be a little tricky to jump throught their hoops and most of the agent there can't seem to ever answer thier phones, but I have always have gotten paid. They have also been pretty loyal to me, all this does not mean they don't piss us off sometimes. We aim to be the best snow contractor in town so there is never any major problems with performance, only the store managers understanding of the contract, so USM seem to eventually come through.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

hoskm01;967254 said:


> And then you can go to arbitration,,, over a Pepsi. Good times.


Wouldnt go to arbitration.

You have to have a claim to file.

You cant file breach of contract because thats not the case.

What do you file?

The rules I signed that i agreed to actually suck in reality?

Sorry. Wont fly. You would be "screwed out of your money"


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

and yet another example of why USM and other large maintenance subcontractors are ruining the lawn and snow industry


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=302730&page=3

thought you guys might find this interesting


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## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Ah... net 45 means... net 45... you might be able to argue that they owe you for the 6th... but I doubt you sent in a bill the next day, and most companies don't do cheque runs more then once a month. 

We send in our bills at the end of the month, and expect to be paid by the 1st of the month, in a month... if you know what I mean. It doesn't happen often, but that is what is supposed to happen, with reputable companies we deal with. 

Let us know when you get the cheques, but I would guess you will get Dec 6th around the beginning of feb, and the rest at the beginning of march. You knew getting into this that they were going to suck with payment, so that would be my guess.


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## dannyslawn (Oct 29, 2007)

Ram, why did you sign with USM? Our company bids snow very high in central NJ. We only sign 1 or 2 out of every 10 bids, but those that do sign with us get top notch service and we make top dollar. What I 'm trying to get at is from what I hear on this site and my dealings with USM (no contracts signed, they are very cheap) you must be charging them on the low end of the payment scale. Why don't you go out and bid your same pricing to managment companies or owners of properties that your willing to charge USM. If you did I bet you would get alot of work. We are a small company, only a few trucks, salters, and machines, but We price high and little by little we are building up a portfolio of custumers willing to pay for outstanding service. What I trying to say is "F these large nation wide companies!" We don't need them. They and low ballers are hurting the industry.


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## frostypaws1221 (Jan 11, 2010)

tman3007;866531 said:


> Run Forrest, Run!
> 
> Signing on with USM would be very similar to dropping the soap in a prison shower!  Only one party will come out of that situation with a smile on their face...and it won't be you!!!


Truer words were never spoken! Has anyone heard of any class actions suits filed against them. We would love to join in if there is. They owe us in excess of 30,000 from last snow plowing season. They said our final payment was sent. We got a check for $1.00 after they deducted all but $26.00 off our invoice, and then deducted $25.00 to overnight the check to us! This year they sent us a case of soap on a rope hoping to get us in the shower again. We hastily declined.


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## tutianoburgante (Feb 4, 2009)

frosty! Private message me I can Help...


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## frostypaws1221 (Jan 11, 2010)

not sure how to send private message.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

frostypaws1221;1142813 said:


> not sure how to send private message.


You cant until you have 10 posts.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

I dont see why you would send usm your employees ss# or drivers license numbers , that is information that is required for government for taxes and retirement. If I worked for you and found out you gave that information to a 3rd party there would be a problem . The USM company has no use for that information , and no right to ask or demand it. All they need is your federal tax ID number , and insurance certificate. I 9's I am not sure of , but they arent the immigration police , they are just another business


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

frostypaws1221;1142748 said:


> . We got a check for $1.00 after they deducted all but $26.00 off our invoice, and then deducted $25.00 to overnight the check to us! .


i got me one of them $1 checks also.

but then again...one wouldn't bad mouth a SIMA member, now would they?


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Mdirrigation;1143096 said:


> I dont see why you would send usm your employees ss# or drivers license numbers , that is information that is required for government for taxes and retirement. If I worked for you and found out you gave that information to a 3rd party there would be a problem . The USM company has no use for that information , and no right to ask or demand it. All they need is your federal tax ID number , and insurance certificate. I 9's I am not sure of , but they arent the immigration police , they are just another business


Because when your subcontractor hires illegals and someone catches on to that, guess who looks bad when they get busted in your parking lot??? For this reason, they're covering their azz and making sure that you've hired legal workers, as US law requires.

The driver's license... thats just taking it too far.


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

dannyslawn;980228 said:


> Ram, why did you sign with USM? Our company bids snow very high in central NJ. We only sign 1 or 2 out of every 10 bids, but those that do sign with us get top notch service and we make top dollar. What I 'm trying to get at is from what I hear on this site and my dealings with USM (no contracts signed, they are very cheap) you must be charging them on the low end of the payment scale. Why don't you go out and bid your same pricing to managment companies or owners of properties that your willing to charge USM. If you did I bet you would get alot of work. We are a small company, only a few trucks, salters, and machines, but We price high and little by little we are building up a portfolio of custumers willing to pay for outstanding service. What I trying to say is "F these large nation wide companies!" We don't need them. They and low ballers are hurting the industry.


Thumbs Up Well said my friend


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## LitchfieldCo (Dec 8, 2010)

*Usm*

And the rest of the nationals are just plain BAD for this industry, and for scaping. I am new posting here, but I have been around for sometime now. We have done work for them and you know what I cant stand them. The big box stores think they are wonderful, but the people that get hurt are US. The SELF PROVIDER, in this industry. The problem that have been brought up about USM ARE ALL REAL and TRUE!... TRY talking to one of their higher ups, and you get treated like you are crap. Her name is Marylynn. The Account Coordinator dont know sht about the jobs and they dont have to, you know WHY? They are managers and t hey USE our companies as their tools. Out company will not work for them, any longer.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

LitchfieldCo;1143629 said:


> And the rest of the nationals are just plain BAD for this industry, and for scaping. I am new posting here, but I have been around for sometime now. We have done work for them and you know what I cant stand them. The big box stores think they are wonderful, but the people that get hurt are US. The SELF PROVIDER, in this industry. The problem that have been brought up about USM ARE ALL REAL and TRUE!... TRY talking to one of their higher ups, and you get treated like you are crap. Her name is Marylynn. The Account Coordinator dont know sht about the jobs and they dont have to, you know WHY? They are managers and t hey USE our companies as their tools. Out company will not work for them, any longer.


And all of this is reinforced by the fact that at one point one of their employees was on here talking about dealing with peoples problems. Then entered the "legal department" and he said he would be back when he ran some stuff by his superiors. Has anyone seem the misterious USM rep? Nope, what is even worse is that he was coming back and checking out the forums for a while, then someone commented on why he is online, but not addressing anything, and now we don't see him at all, is this the additude of a reputable company? Cudos to Cudos to the big company reps that show their faces on here and back up what they say.


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## frostypaws1221 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm sure we're not the only ones!


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## frostypaws1221 (Jan 11, 2010)

Thank you, we appreciate the info. We're new on here.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

dannyslawn;980228 said:


> Ram, why did you sign with USM? Our company bids snow very high in central NJ. We only sign 1 or 2 out of every 10 bids, but those that do sign with us get top notch service and we make top dollar. What I 'm trying to get at is from what I hear on this site and my dealings with USM (no contracts signed, they are very cheap) you must be charging them on the low end of the payment scale. Why don't you go out and bid your same pricing to managment companies or owners of properties that your willing to charge USM. If you did I bet you would get alot of work. We are a small company, only a few trucks, salters, and machines, but We price high and little by little we are building up a portfolio of custumers willing to pay for outstanding service. What I trying to say is "F these large nation wide companies!" We don't need them. They and low ballers are hurting the industry.


I like this idea to an extent. 
I don't plow, I mow but following this thread closely to see what is being said and done. I hear WM has given all the contracts to USM but there are problems.

I hope WM reconsiders, I have enjoyed working with them. It is frustrating from time to time. I know part of the reason they are doing this.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

Ramairfreak98ss;966615 said:


> well we havnt seen a dime yet from them this year... go figure.. i know theyre a ptia some times but this year is worse.
> 
> Then theyre rejecting our i 9 forms for employees and employee list because we didnt have everyones SS# listed.


I have refused to work with them but if I can keep my current contract plus a little more (doubtful) I would like to try and save it.

I also wonder if giving out your employees info is legal? I have refused this so far and would pay to have the info reviewed by a 3rd party to certify my pay roll but no way I am just giving out that info to anyone including WM and USM. 

It is not illegal for them to ask, or to have it but I wonder if I would be violating my employees rights. I know why USM / Walmart want it.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

duekster;1193745 said:


> I have refused to work with them but if I can keep my current contract plus a little more (doubtful) I would like to try and save it.
> 
> I also wonder if giving out your employees info is legal? I have refused this so far and would pay to have the info reviewed by a 3rd party to certify my pay roll but no way I am just giving out that info to anyone including WM and USM.
> 
> It is not illegal for them to ask, or to have it but I wonder if I would be violating my employees rights. I know why USM / Walmart want it.


Because they don't want illegals working on their sites. Only way to prove you or your employees are legal is to do an I-9 and e-verify. Only way to do either of those is with a SSN. Seems simple. Don't want to supply such info? Dont work for USM or Wal-Mart. These are identifying numbers, not top-secret medical records protected under HIPAA.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

hoskm01;1194329 said:


> Because they don't want illegals working on their sites. Only way to prove you or your employees are legal is to do an I-9 and e-verify. Only way to do either of those is with a SSN. Seems simple. Don't want to supply such info? Dont work for USM or Wal-Mart. These are identifying numbers, not top-secret medical records protected under HIPAA.


I am aware of why they want it and it is a large part of why WM is making the move. 
I have been part of the Homeland Security program since it was a pilot. There are provisions to have a 3rd party review that is acceptable to USM and WM.

If ICE or someone else discovered illegals working on a WM site, the national news would not be Dueksters was using Illegals, it would be WM is using illegals. WM would counter that is was a contractor but the damage is done. Hence headline aversion and the required insurance provision for advertisement injury of 1 million dollars.

I am not comfortable giving out SSN's to company like USM


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## TSherman (Dec 4, 2009)

kickin'a;888086 said:


> here ya go something for you to laugh about over the weekend
> 
> Dear Contractor:
> Enclosed you will find material related to your service as a USM, Inc. ("USM") contractor. Please read all of
> ...


I can't see whats wrong with it. Its all about CYA, and if they sub a company that doesn't follow the rules, then they are also liable. As for the pay, and parameters...why not? If you can do it for the money....great. If you can't, great too that you have been paying jobs. I was a sub my whole first year. I paid off that tuck with the money and felt good about it. I tried my hand and bidding some of my own work and moved up.

Parameters are set because subs get paid for a job and cut corners. If your not, your not in business long. The pay plan is set for speed, and like my card says: you get cheap, fast and good.....pick two! USM and Brickman are great for a lot of people. Its hard to look down on anyone for going with them. Handle your quality, and your employees and these jobs can be easy.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

Most of it is fairly standard stuff used by large property management companies and large corporations. 

There are some items that seem a little one sides to me and most of these type contracts are 1 sides. 

I would never agree to a contract written in another state than the one that do business. That is first and foremost, I know the laws of my state where I do business.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

Thats a rather well written contract , whom ever signs it has signed their life, business , future earnings , and their first born male son away . You would have no recourse whatsoever .


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

Mdirrigation;1195758 said:


> Thats a rather well written contract , whom ever signs it has signed their life, business , future earnings , and their first born male son away . You would have no recourse whatsoever .


I am not a lawyer but I did sleep at a holiday inn last night.

Two general rules about contracts, if it is flawed, the person drafting the contract is often held accountable. The other, you don't have to sign it.

Again, I have seen many similar contracts but there are a few items here that concern me. I am not sure about the provision to maintain coverage for two years after your contractual relationship ends. Most insurance policies will cover you for a period of about 3 years under sun set laws. I have seen some odd ball coverage request and verbiages on policy riders before in the past. They were not from Wal-Mart or USM but a large property management company. I played havoc finding someone to handle that language.

Keep in mind, often people sue like a tossing a plate of spaghetti on the wall hoping something sticks. Since USM and WalMart, as well as most companies I do business with have hundreds if not hundreds of thousands of more dollars than I do, they will be sued first. The subrogation part mostly means, your insurance has to be exhausted, be for their policies kick in, regardless of what the contract says, if you kill someone while working for a large company, your policy limits will run out quickly and they are next in line on the hook for your action. They can not contract that liability away, the owner of a property is ultimately responsible for what happens.

Having said that, I don't like many things about the contract but it is not a whole lot worse than many standard contracts.

I find it interesting the part about health care. I read that if Obama Care makes you buy insurance and if you lose money as a result, that is your fault.

The other part of the contract is basically saying, you have to be aware of the laws and those are your responsibility, Be it employment laws, employment taxes, or contractor licenses. It says you are a contractor, those are your employees, you will not make the claim they are employees and your employees will not claim to be employees.

You are being warned, to price your labor and services correctly to cover those cost! If you don't it's not their fault!

It has happened to someone some where I am sure. A 1099 contract employee got laid off or got in tax problems. I had this discussion on linked in before regarding day porters in office buildings. The day porter works for a janitorial firm but works at the mega building day in and day out. They take instruction from the property manager which violates the contractor / employee relationship.

So bottom line, most of this crap is in there because laws being what they are and companies have learned the hard way. The solution, as hard as it is, is to stick to your guns and charge correctly to make sure you can cover all the provision of the contract.


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## duekster (Dec 9, 2009)

Mdirrigation;1143096 said:


> I don't see why you would send USM your employees ss# or drivers license numbers , that is information that is required for government for taxes and retirement. If I worked for you and found out you gave that information to a 3rd party there would be a problem . The USM company has no use for that information , and no right to ask or demand it. All they need is your federal tax ID number , and insurance certificate. I 9's I am not sure of , but they aren't the immigration police , they are just another business


This is a huge sticking point. My understanding is there is not a specific federal law against it, how ever there are many other laws and general duty provisions that scare me. In addition some states do have specific provisions. While USM can ask, I am not sure I can comply or even would if I could. Seems morally wrong to provided, and I am not going to ask the employees to let me, because they might think they have to let me in order to stay employed.

The language of the 3rd party contract thing is bothersome as well, it scared away my CPA that verbally said she would certify, but the language scared her.

I did this for another company, I sent the same letter generated by my attorney to USM and they took it. Then I looked at the USM insurance on Auto's and decided it would cost me more than what USM was offering me. USM offered more but I still declined.

To this date I don't work for them but I am considering it if I can work out a few kinks with them.


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## kingriver (Oct 25, 2005)

*Usm ????*

OK been there, done that , NEVER again,


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

duekster;1194572 said:


> I am not comfortable giving out SSN's to company like USM


The sky is falling, The sky is falling!!!


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## Harold Finch (Jan 1, 2011)

Yes, Stay away from them and Brickman.


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