# Do you ever ask yourself why bother doing snow removal



## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

I been asking this question for the last month. I do 45 snow accounts with 3 trucks and a skidloader. I love being out plowin when it's snows. But it hasn't snowed yet at all, I havent even salted yet. Sometimes i think about getting a full time job in the winter. Every winter I put a few thousand dollars in getting the trucks ready to go for snow and no snow. I don't know im just really depressed sitting around and not working watching my hard earned savings from the summer dissapear.:crying:


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

i feel your pain, i really do. This is a good reason not to be completely invested in snow removal. If you enjoy doing snow, then great, keep at it, but you may want to take up another trade, or find yourself a part time job that will work around your snow contracts. Good luck, and I hope the snow flies for you soon.


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## KSB (Mar 5, 2007)

*Going Broke*

I hear you loud & clear. Your lucky you have some savings from the summer. I'm still waiting to get paid from our october work. Starting to think about God alot. Good Luck.


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## Advantage (Nov 7, 2007)

I completely understand and have the same thoughts. It's tough; in our case snow work is 30+ percent of our revenue but when I think about getting out I remember all the hard work over the years getting it to where we are now and I'm not ready to throw that away. It will eventually snow and it will eventually turn around for those that have worked hard and care about this insane line of work.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

considering I hate winter ,I just don't know why I don't head to Hawaii for a few months.


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

I've been asking myself that question for 25 years, also why I'm not living someplace warmer...I sometimes just feel like a dog who likes to lick 9 volt batteries...it can be painful at times, but strangely in a demented sort of way feels rewarding. I also like the options that it provides me during the off season. There's also something to be said about driving home against morning/evening rush hour traffic...as I watch the backed up herds of cattle trying to funnel downtown...I always say to myself, at least I don't have to deal with that everyday...no thanks.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

grandview;1394845 said:


> considering I hate winter ,I just don't know why I don't head to Hawaii for a few months.


Might just as well with the winter we are having so far, you can have your seasonal checks forwarded to you there.Thumbs Up Can I come?


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

It's all my fault guys.....went and got a dependable crew and look what happens. Personally, I'm going to start a p/t business in the winter of tying fishing flies and making fishing lures. At least it gives me a reason to be at our shop all day.


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## bhmjwp (Dec 12, 2005)

I guess if I didn't do snow and work 10 to 12 days each winter, I would feel like a bum! This way I don't feel like a bum and still don't do much!


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## BOSSMAN21 (Dec 11, 2008)

I have thought about that, I always spend a bunch of money to get my truck ready in the fall, and every year, it pays off, but, it takes a while and then the winter seems like it goes on forever. LOL. If you like doing it, keep doing it.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

This is funny
After last 3 years of pushing record snows Im glad there no snow Nice having a break from it 
I draw employment during off season so I always have money coming in
Snow part is small part of my business Summer time is the big part
I wouldn't even do the snow but I have year contacts The snow is a part of the contacts
Im kinda use to no snow winters I seen few in my days
I like see ICE easier and faster money


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## ANA Proscapes (Jul 14, 2011)

It helps to have a good mix of seasonal and per push contracts. You get paid when it snows and you get paid when there is no snow. We plowed a couple times so far. Our biggest storm was the blizzard in October. Since then we've only salted a few times. It's rained more than anything. Good luck every one.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

I started when i was 14, i'm 30 now. I love it, i remember winters not going out at all cause i was a sub on a 2" trigger. This winter i have full time guys i'm still paying. We have been doing tree work with our bucket truck and other jobs i have saved for the winter. We have a large interior rehab job we are going to start soon. Do what you have to do, those bills come every week!!!!


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

every day... seems like way more work than it is worth


but for some reason you just keep doing it.


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## allaspects10 (Jan 1, 2011)

had the oppourtunity to go to florida doing food concessions decided at the last min to stay thinkin bout goin next year even though my stuff is 100% seasonal or maybe its cause my new chevy is white lol


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## cwby_ram (Jan 15, 2011)

KSB;1394815 said:


> I hear you loud & clear. Your lucky you have some savings from the summer. I'm still waiting to get paid from our october work. Starting to think about God alot. Good Luck.


I'm with ya. Don't want to be counting on snow to pay the bills. But that's where I'm at right now. I love doing it, and would love it even more if I didn't HAVE to do it. But I've been taught many lessons in faith through the rough times. I do my best run my business for His glory and He always sees us though! Keep your chins up, everyone, there's gotta be some snow coming!


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

It was snowing here (south central pa) a few minutes ago. The roads are damp now. LOL Not enough to even gaze out into the yard and think, man that's beautiful. hahaha


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## R.G.PEEL (Oct 27, 2010)

My father (50/50 partner) asked me the same thing. He felt it was far too much investment and organization. He figured that we spend as much as we make during the winter. What he failed to think of was how few hours we actually work or pay employees for. 

I did an expense vs revenue projection and the margins on snow are still triple what they usually are during the summer months. The difference being that with snow there is aprox 150 hrs of work/pc spread over 5 months (30 hrs/mnth) vs the 1500 hrs of work/pc in the summer. After seeing it that way, I'd like to move somewhere that gets snow all year!!!! Snow makes up about 7-8 percent of our annual revenue so spending 5 mnths doing it seems silly. The alternative though is not working so I'll keep doing snow!


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## nor'easter1 (Jan 28, 2003)

We are all on this site because we make money off of the services we provide for winter. seasonal or no seasonal no one here would stay in this business if we did'nt count on snow. It's tough to have 1 truck or 40 not in use. So much time, money, worry, and sweat is used every year to get our equipment in the best working order we can, find dependable workers and do our best to provide good service and retain customers. Hang in there men something will happen.


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

* I should preface this by saying I mow and landscape in the summer.

I've been thinking this for years. I spend so much on getting ready for winter, I wonder if I'd be better of just not doing it.

Every year it seems like I have to buy or replace another truck, plow, spreader, snow blower or two, ect. I could go into winter with that money in the bank. If I didn't plow, I coud have two wheel drive trucks for use in the summer, way cheaper to buy initially and better milage, plus they would last longer and break down less. If I didn't plow my insurnace premiums would be less. I put out thousands for salt back it September and have barely put a dent in the pile; kind of wish that money was back in my checking accout right now. 

I think you need to know to just take the good with the bad. Last year I had a good year plowing; was able to go out and pay cash for a bunch of equipment in March and April for summer use plus used the money to pay down some other business debt. However, this year has been more of a loosing proposition. We had one 10"+ snowfall that was pure hell on November 30th. After that just a few saltings here and there - partial saltings at that, only was able to do the entire route once. The forecast will say maybe a little snow, but once that day comes it doens't happen. It usually comes as rain, it's been 35-40 degrees here almost everyday this December. The 15 day forecast shows virtually nothing as far as significant snow goes. 

So to all that have posted similar stories, I feel your pain. Keep hoping for snow I suppose.


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks everyone for responding to my thread. I have alot of respect for everyone on this site. Guys that really care about the snow removal buisness are a different breed alone. It's hard to get real dedicated snow contractors out there. To do good in this buisness you have to stay 100% committed to it for sure. I can just share my depressed feelings for the lack of snow and income here in central PA. I make myself fully available for my customers during the winter and invest a few thousand each year just getting ready for the snow, like procut says maybe it would be better just keepin that money in the bank lol, but something just keeps me hangin on. If it isn't a good season in jan and feb i will try aliitle harder in the spring to make up for it.


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## windrowsnow (Aug 31, 2008)

i just bought a Case IH jx100u for snow. wife asks me today so what are we going to do with this loader if it doesnt snow lol i just look at her and go it will snow. i love the business and wouldnt give it up. we just gotta make sure we do our snow dance to get ol man winter to let loose!


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## Tubby's Snow Plowing (Dec 13, 2009)

Personally I hate winter, but make the most of it by making money off the snow we get here.


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

Antlerart06;1394972 said:


> This is funny
> After last 3 years of pushing record snows Im glad there no snow Nice having a break from it
> I draw employment during off season so I always have money coming in
> Snow part is small part of my business Summer time is the big part
> ...


How are you able to collect unemployment benefits and run a business? You have to be working for someone else.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

procut;1396240 said:


> * I should preface this by saying I mow and landscape in the summer.
> I've been thinking this for years. I spend so much on getting ready for winter, I wonder if I'd be better of just not doing it.
> 
> Every year it seems like I have to buy or replace another truck, plow, spreader, snow blower or two, ect. I could go into winter with that money in the bank. If I didn't plow, I coud have two wheel drive trucks for use in the summer, way cheaper to buy initially and better milage, plus they would last longer and break down less. If I didn't plow my insurnace premiums would be less. I put out thousands for salt back it September and have barely put a dent in the pile; kind of wish that money was back in my checking accout right now.


I've preached about what you wrote to other guys in my area. Beyond what you listed, there are several other added expenses in winter. 
Many times I think about how much smaller my shop would be if I didn't need the space for snow equipment prep and storage. The electric and heat bills. 
Plugging in the equipment that you park outside. Etc. Etc. Etc.
But the reality is most business is cyclical... How about having a metal stamping company with millions tied up in machines only to have a manufacturer stop buying from you! A nursery with acres and acres of trees and the housing boom slow down.

Just looking at a truck or two not moving isn't the end of the world.


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## IPLOWSNO (Oct 11, 2008)

this summer i was told that i was gonna be out of a job, not by the owner but someone else, so i asked what was up with the owner, never heard a word out of him to make me think otherwise,

2 days before christmas he lets me know he is ending our contract, this is after working for him for 20 something years.

so in the summer i took on other work for the winter just in case, seeing i didn't want to do carpentry in the cold i went to plowing,

wouldn't it just happen to be the worst year for snow in a decade, so far i have 10 hours lmao 

even though i am cutting my own throat, it looks like i have to stick it out this winter and hope for the best.

i hope you guys have a nice new year,,,,,,,,,


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

I love snow, but plowing is blood money. I enjoy playing with my atv plow, but commercial plowing isn't fun anymore.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

ALC-GregH;1396840 said:


> How are you able to collect unemployment benefits and run a business? You have to be working for someone else.


Even if he is drawing unemplent and working for someone else. How can he claim his snow work to the unemplyment office? I would think if he does that he would lose his unemployment benefits for that week. Then it could bite you hard, cause the state will think you a running a business. years ago when i ran my lawn business part-time and worked my normal full time job, I couldn't draw unemployment when my fulltime job laid me off cause I was also self employed. Im interested to hear his answer to your question.


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

I think i decided that I'm going to just downsize the plowing buisness next year. I want to get a full time job for the winter 2nd shift, and I will downsize from 45 commercial and resedential accounts to 20 resedential jobs and 2 laid back comercial accounts. I can do all those places by myself with a shoveler. And I don't have to worry about keepin all the trucks running and having guys on call all the time. There's just to much stress in this for me to make it worth it. Jan 1st and not even a plowable or saltable event yet. I have a landscape buisiness and i just want to service the resedentials that keep me working all year.


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## John143 (Nov 2, 2011)

94gt331;1399893 said:


> I think i decided that I'm going to just downsize the plowing buisness next year. I want to get a full time job for the winter 2nd shift, and I will downsize from 45 commercial and resedential accounts to 20 resedential jobs and 2 laid back comercial accounts. I can do all those places by myself with a shoveler. And I don't have to worry about keepin all the trucks running and having guys on call all the time. There's just to much stress in this for me to make it worth it. Jan 1st and not even a plowable or saltable event yet. I have a landscape buisiness and i just want to service the resedentials that keep me working all year.


Don't feel bad. I spent alot of money on trucks and fixing plows this year. So far I was out only one time salting!!

They said we might get a dusting to an inch on Monday or perhaps even alittle more around 2 inches!! I spent the day getting all the trucks gassed up and plows on!! lol Sad part is it may just be rain!! But what the hell It at lease made me feel like I was going to be making money them couple hours it took to get the trucks ready today!


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

ALC-GregH;1396840 said:


> How are you able to collect unemployment benefits and run a business? You have to be working for someone else.


Buisness is shut down till it snows or grass turns green again


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

dlcs;1397131 said:


> Even if he is drawing unemplent and working for someone else. How can he claim his snow work to the unemplyment office? I would think if he does that he would lose his unemployment benefits for that week. Then it could bite you hard, cause the state will think you a running a business. years ago when i ran my lawn business part-time and worked my normal full time job, I couldn't draw unemployment when my fulltime job laid me off cause I was also self employed. Im interested to hear his answer to your question.


Im not self employed I work for my business and its a Incorporated business


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## Wayne Volz (Mar 1, 2002)

*We all share the same story.*

Here's my story with 31 years of experience.

Thank God for our retainers, It will snow hopefully for all of us.

Food for thought..... How many of your clients that were crying last year about busting their budget have called to say "hey we have not spent our budgeted money for December, I think we will go ahead and send you half"? NONE!

Make it why you can and pay no attention to the crying. Let's all keep our fingers crossed. Think snow!


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Wayne Volz;1400199 said:


> Here's my story with 31 years of experience.
> 
> Thank God for our retainers, It will snow hopefully for all of us.
> 
> ...


I agree! Couldn't have said it any better.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

Well said. Except for the retainers. You dont see that around here.


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

Antlerart06;1400112 said:


> Im not self employed I work for my business and its a Incorporated business


There are only a couple of states that let business owners collect, and that is only if they pay in to the fund.
several also have a 10% threshold for business ownership, over that you are not eligible. 
Most are like NJ do not,
corporation, partnership, llc doesn't matter you are out of luck.


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

I think that's kinda how the snow game is played. It's just one of those types of jobs.


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## jgoetter1 (Feb 23, 2007)

blowerman;1396960 said:


> I've preached about what you wrote to other guys in my area. Beyond what you listed, there are several other added expenses in winter.
> Many times I think about how much smaller my shop would be if I didn't need the space for snow equipment prep and storage. The electric and heat bills.
> Plugging in the equipment that you park outside. Etc. Etc. Etc.
> But the reality is most business is cyclical... How about having a metal stamping company with millions tied up in machines only to have a manufacturer stop buying from you! A nursery with acres and acres of trees and the housing boom slow down.
> ...


Great point Chris - I agree that we need to understand that this industry is cyclical and prepare each season with that in mind.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

It used to be more profitable which made it easier to deal with the ups and downs.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

I've never asked myself why bother doing snow removal. I have asked myself that with landscaping, which I find to be much more competitive and less profitable.


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## jmac5058 (Sep 28, 2009)

This thread reminds me of that old song thats a kid writing home from summer camp telling how bad things are at the camp.At the end of the song it says something like "the sun came out please disregaurd this letter".You will forget all about this first half of winter if it just starts snowing.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Italiano67;1403181 said:


> It used to be more profitable which made it easier to deal with the ups and downs.


As long as you are not trying to land every big box in town,
why do you think it "used to be more profitable"? 
This question is geared towards the mid sized company with a mix of accounts.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

Most of the retail stores around here, not just the big ones are going seasonal with national companies. A med. size store last year that I did per push and app. for around 30 K with alot of calls for more salt etc. this year went seasonal for 13K. I know if it was a regular year they would lose money but they are lucking out this time. I wont be at the beck and call of those moronic managers who know you are seasonal so everything they want done is now free and justifiable in their peanut sized minds.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Italiano67;1404239 said:


> Most of the retail stores around here, not just the big ones are going seasonal with national companies. A med. size store last year that I did per push and app. for around 30 K with alot of calls for more salt etc. this year went seasonal for 13K. I know if it was a regular year they would lose money but they are lucking out this time. I wont be at the beck and call of those moronic managers who know you are seasonal so everything they want done is now free and justifiable in their peanut sized minds.


Define, review, and perform your scope of work exactly. A lot of the time managers need to be clued in on the scope of work, as I find many managers have never seen or don't even know of the scope of work.

This isn't directed at you, I just want to highlight a common problem I've had. Our most common issue is the famous 2" trigger. Everyone insists on a 2" trigger during bidding season, not realizing how much 2" on a parking lot with carriages being pushed through it really is. At an inch or less they will be on the phone screaming, which is the time I highlight, and e-mail the scope of work to the managers of some properties right from my iPad. If a contractor performs service below the trigger amount (beyond the scope of work), it is my understanding that you have now owned that service level for the duration of the contract, and will be held legally liable for anything less than the expectation you set if there is an incident on the property. I don't care if I have operators sitting in equipment idling with a tape measure stuck in the snow waiting until the trigger amount to being plowing. I 100% refuse to go beyond my scope of work, and am very quick to argue this when it comes up. At the same time, I will perform that scope of work very well, and apparently much better than a lot of my local competition judging by the high contract retention rate I have. Be careful with all this and stick to your guns.

Also, I have noticed that due to our lack of snow this year, seasonal accounts are very quick to call at a dusting to 1/4" demanding plowing service. They will get us there by informing the office that there is 2-3 inches on the lot, we show up and there is literally not even enough to scrap off the pavement with a plow... Maybe it is the fact that we are getting paid and not having to work that much YET and they want they're money worth, or it could be that no one is really used to dealing with a real winter yet, so the customers are still very sensitive. Could also be a combination of both. In the few events we have had this year so far, this has happened more often than in the past.


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## DAFFMOBILEWASH (Dec 9, 2006)

This is the winter of extremes and mixed up weather geographically. Seems winter is not on strike but just hitting the areas which are not normal. There is still 6 weeks left or so, anything can happen


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## Lugnut (Feb 25, 2006)

merrimacmill;1442451 said:


> Define, review, and perform your scope of work exactly. A lot of the time managers need to be clued in on the scope of work, as I find many managers have never seen or don't even know of the scope of work.
> 
> This isn't directed at you, I just want to highlight a common problem I've had. Our most common issue is the famous 2" trigger. Everyone insists on a 2" trigger during bidding season, not realizing how much 2" on a parking lot with carriages being pushed through it really is. At an inch or less they will be on the phone screaming, which is the time I highlight, and e-mail the scope of work to the managers of some properties right from my iPad. If a contractor performs service below the trigger amount (beyond the scope of work), it is my understanding that you have now owned that service level for the duration of the contract, and will be held legally liable for anything less than the expectation you set if there is an incident on the property. I don't care if I have operators sitting in equipment idling with a tape measure stuck in the snow waiting until the trigger amount to being plowing. I 100% refuse to go beyond my scope of work, and am very quick to argue this when it comes up. At the same time, I will perform that scope of work very well, and apparently much better than a lot of my local competition judging by the high contract retention rate I have. Be careful with all this and stick to your guns.
> 
> Also, I have noticed that due to our lack of snow this year, seasonal accounts are very quick to call at a dusting to 1/4" demanding plowing service. They will get us there by informing the office that there is 2-3 inches on the lot, we show up and there is literally not even enough to scrap off the pavement with a plow... Maybe it is the fact that we are getting paid and not having to work that much YET and they want they're money worth, or it could be that no one is really used to dealing with a real winter yet, so the customers are still very sensitive. Could also be a combination of both. In the few events we have had this year so far, this has happened more often than in the past.


Good point, and with this comes the other side of that responsibility, to wait until the appropriate trigger on per push accounts. In our area, we got an inch to an inch and a half 2 storms ago, and i couldn't even count the number of guys out plowing residentials. Just because its been a slow winter doesn't mean guys should stretch the snowfall amount to get a push in. I was the only one of my guys out servicing the 0-2'' trigger accounts, and as much as i would have liked to send the rest of the trucks out, I refrained from doing so and only recieved one phone call asking where we were when a customer saw their neighbor's driveway being done, and when I told them how much snow actually fell, they thanked me for not coming out as their neighbors contractor did. Supposedly their neighbor wants to switch to us for next season now. (we'll see if that actually happens though)


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## Glenn Lawn Care (Sep 28, 2009)

I had to get a full time job this winter to pay my bills since we are not getting any snow here. And I hate the job!!


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Glenn Lawn Care;1443361 said:


> I had to get a full time job this winter to pay my bills since we are not getting any snow here. And I hate the job!!


I did the same thing. I took a full time job as well. It stress me out when it's snows. I have to tell the boss im plowin. But i need a few hundread bucks a week to cover some expenses. Waiten for spring!


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## cwby_ram (Jan 15, 2011)

94gt331;1443484 said:


> I did the same thing. I took a full time job as well. It stress me out when it's snows. I have to tell the boss im plowin. But i need a few hundread bucks a week to cover some expenses. Waiten for spring!


I put an app in at one place. Didn't try to to hard, so far we're scraping by. Just gotta ride out a few more weeks, until spring.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

merrimacmill;1404106 said:


> i've never asked myself why bother doing snow removal. I have asked myself that with landscaping, which i find to be much more competitive and less profitable.


x2!!!!!!!!!!!


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