# No room for more snow..



## hedhunter9 (Nov 15, 2008)

This year, we have already gotten over 72 inchs of snow. Our normal average snow for for the whole season is 60 inchs.. We still have 2 months to go and next week we are supposed to get daily snows and a few large storms.
We havnt had any warm ups or any time for snow to melt.

The problem is.. The apartment complex I plow as a sub, has run out of room to put snow.. We have pushed piles up on every spot we put snow the last few years, but those were full the first week of Jan. We got creative and started putting piles on every little unblocked lawn area we could. Then we took some parking spots that were near ends and were open. 

Problem is. we have run out of areas to put any more.
And the apt. complex managers do not want to bring in any equipment to move or stack higher. (they are super cheap) I am subbing for a friend. he has a seasonal contract with them and is losing his butt on this months pay. (about even for last month)
I had told him to be careful about bidding a seasonal after we have had 3-4 years of light snows. cause he could get in trouble if we had a heavy winter.
I saw one guy years ago go bankrupt after doing the same thing. 
I dont want to see my friend in trouble, and dont know what will happen if he doesnt plow them properly during the next weeks storms, but we just dont have anywhere to put more snow...!
I know he is really upset with the apt higher ups. 
The local manager is also upset and knows that we are working our butts off trying to do the job but are hindered by the fact that the apt complex does not have proper places to put snow. 
If we cant plow because of no-where to put snow, whos fault ?
My friend? the apt managers ? God ?
any suggestions ?

Bob


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Have the tenats move out....

Well your guy needs to bite the bullet and rent a skid. 200 isn't going to break the broke bank is it?


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## OSCLandscaping (Nov 18, 2007)

All of those questions you asked should be clearly spelled out in the contract. If the answers are not clearly spelled out in the contract then the question is who wrote the contract that the parties signed. As li have stated in another thread, any gray areas in a contract almost always fall in favor of the party that did not write the contract.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Assuming relocating snow not included the lot gets smaller and smaller. Not your fault or problem. Once you start relocating the snow for free it will be expected in the future.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

I don't see this as a big deal, as for a few hundred bucks and 10 gallons of diesel, your friend could rent a small loader and move the piles, or stack them higher. At least, if I was in that situation, I would do. Worst case scenario, you'd have to rent a truck to cart it away. No clause in the contract for "snow removal" from the property, I guess, huh ?

Yeah, it's a couple hours of work, and a few hundred bucks lost, but Live and Learn....

Besides, it's fun to move snow with a loader. If I lived there, and he paid for the rental, I'd get in the machine for free if I had the time. That's the fun part of the job, IMO.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Not your problem, keep filling in the spots that tents park in. Or just give them a flat rate for so many hours with a loader,this way they kind of have an idea on how much he would charge


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

OSCLandscaping;1736784 said:


> All of those questions you asked should be clearly spelled out in the contract. If the answers are not clearly spelled out in the contract then the question is who wrote the contract that the parties signed. As li have stated in another thread, any gray areas in a contract almost always fall in favor of the party that did not write the contract.


Well said- any snow contract should include provisions regarding snow relocation/removal, charges, minimum fees, etc., if it's not spelled out in the contract you're under obligation to rent a skid to move piles, but I'd see if you can do an addendum to the contract to cover yourself for the rest of the season- talk to the property owners…. and before next year- revise the contract!


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Herm Witte;1736791 said:


> Assuming relocating snow not included the lot gets smaller and smaller. Not your fault or problem. Once you start relocating the snow for free it will be expected in the future.


Its called doing the right thing!

The deal was made, good or bad, a deal is a deal.

Put ur shelf on the other side of the table. If there was no snow and the wallet was fat, would you return the cash?

Rent a machine, do the right thing and learn a lesson!

We know the answer is no on the refund


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## sk187 (Dec 7, 2006)

If stacking of snow is in his scope of the contract, hire a loader for a half day to stack it.

If nothing is mentioned in the contract about stacking then you have to either make them pay or bite the bullet and get a loader on your dime for a few hours.

Cant believe a apartment complex wouldn't pay ~$1000 for snow stacking but then again if its not in the contract its not technically their problem.


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## vlc (Dec 8, 2012)

Commercial contracts include an hourly rate for snow relocation if needed plus dumping fees if removal is necessary. If residential driveways get out of hand, I'll swing by and stack the snow for free. Only a couple scoops with a skidsteer and the customers love it.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

vlc;1736888 said:


> Commercial contracts include an hourly rate for snow relocation if needed plus dumping fees if removal is necessary. If residential driveways get out of hand, I'll swing by and stack the snow for free. Only a couple scoops with a skidsteer and the customers love it.


Once again, doing the right thing here!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

1olddogtwo;1736891 said:


> Once again, doing the right thing here!


Not in this business so much, as stated before, you do it once for free you might as well count it as lost profit, and then they will dictate to you every time when they need more free service. And the next yr you'll be negotiating from the weak side because they know you'll do it free no matter what.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Has the contractor asked the apt manager if they would pay to have the snow moved? Might start there


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Once again, the other side of the table.

If I hire a contractor and he failed, would I hire him back?

Now would I resgin someone who provide the best service even on a bad deal knowing he's going out of pocket to service me?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

dieselss;1736916 said:


> Has the contractor asked the apt manager if they would pay to have the snow moved? Might start there


Sounds asked and answered


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

1olddogtwo;1736920 said:


> Once again, the other side of the table.
> 
> If I hire a contractor and he failed, would I hire him back?
> 
> Now would I resgin someone who provide the best service even on a bad deal knowing he's going out of pocket to service me?


Still comes down to the contract. If your hired to push snow you push snow to the dictated spots, Now they are full you contract management and its in their ballpark to do something. What would happen if you were doing them a favor by moving snow and smash a car ,property damage or run someone over. You better believe their lawyers will be all over you because they didn't approve the work.

Maybe you'll hire them back till someone else comes in with a lower price.


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

What Grandview said. If they don't want it stacked or relocated then keep putting it in parking spots.


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## potskie (Feb 9, 2011)

grandview;1736898 said:


> Not in this business so much, as stated before, you do it once for free you might as well count it as lost profit, and then they will dictate to you every time when they need more free service. And the next yr you'll be negotiating from the weak side because they know you'll do it free no matter what.





grandview;1736941 said:


> Still comes down to the contract. If your hired to push snow you push snow to the dictated spots, Now they are full you contract management and its in their ballpark to do something. What would happen if you were doing them a favor by moving snow and smash a car ,property damage or run someone over. You better believe their lawyers will be all over you because they didn't approve the work.
> 
> Maybe you'll hire them back till someone else comes in with a lower price.


I have seen and experienced both of these on a Large multi residential contract (110 separate properties). Ran out of space to plow to, boss thought we would be the nice guys and stack it up on a few of the really bad properties. Next thing you know we are buying the front clip for a protege and next storm a couple of the building supers complained because we didn't stack it again.

Next year and from that point on we just filled tenants spaces until the property management company would bite the bullet on stacking or removal. Took their tenants receiving a few dozen parking tickets from over flow parking on the streets before the company paid up....


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Triton2286;1736954 said:


> What Grandview said. If they don't want it stacked or relocated then keep putting it in parking spots.


Don't get me wrong, I do agree.

I'm just saying if that we my contact, my client, my problem I would do the right thing. If I had to take it on the chin because I failed to negotiate properly, then so be it.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

1olddogtwo;1736964 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I do agree.
> 
> I'm just saying if that we my contact, my client, my problem I would do the right thing. If I had to take it on the chin because I failed to negotiate properly, then so be it.


More then likely he signed their half ass contract. So he is doing what they wanted and they went cheap.Now, if you were doing the work and was using a skid and a pickup truck then ya, stack it up a little .but don't get carried away.


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## jvm81 (Jan 4, 2005)

Not sure but simply ask boss man or apt people. Rent a loader or skid with snow blower.


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## crazyboy (Feb 3, 2009)

If there is a clause for excessive snow stacking and offsite hauling in the contract and they are refusing just keep filling in their parking lot. If not, your friend might have to bite the bullet.


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## BuffaloJoe (Oct 20, 2009)

No wonder this industry is so messed up. I am dizzy over the responses that tell you to do it for nothing. If they want the piles moved then they need to pay for the propper equipment to come out and do it. Its that simple. If not then keep clearing the lot as you normally would untill the tenants have to park in the street. Dont go out of your way because you will get taken advantage of by people who expect freebies. This stuff should have been in your contract but if not your still not obligated to do it for nothing. Do you think the tenants of this place get a periodic break on their rent? I dont think so. Dont give anything away for free... you wont last long. They are playing games because they think you will cave. Dont give it away.


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## Drakeslayer (Feb 11, 2011)

1olddogtwo;1736769 said:


> Have the tenats move out....
> 
> Well your guy needs to bite the bullet and rent a skid. 200 isn't going to break the broke bank is it?


$200 might fill the diesel tank on the loader and get it delivered but that's about it. ORiginal poster how much snow are we talking? There are a lot of variables that are untold here.


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## wilsonsground (Jun 29, 2012)

If it was over looked and not put in the contract why would you do it for free? I don't get why you guys say do the right thing. The right thing is to do what is in your contract. Snow removal, push backs whatever, is another piece of paper with signatures from contractor and management. Don't do anything for free, do what your paid to do, it's not your fault your running out of room. Nature of the game. That's why this industry is so cheap now! Guys doing extras for free, screw that.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Last year this time I was same way I ran loaders some would pay me push it back stack higher. Some wouldn't but in all it benefit me to run the loaders Out all the hours I might got paid for 2/3 of them.

Do it or deal with it Start filling all the parking spots They will see a problem then


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## vlc (Dec 8, 2012)

I've only needed to stack snow at a couple of my driveways once in the past 6 years. Commercials, I do it every season. But like I said, I would never do it for free at my commercials. Best thing to do would be to call the property owner, explain the situation and how it's only going to get worse, agree on a price and make sure they sign on it.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

grandview;1736827 said:


> Not your problem, keep filling in the spots that tents park in. Or just give them a flat rate for so many hours with a loader,this way they kind of have an idea on how much he would charge


X2, when the tenants start to piss and moan about not having a place to park the property manger will have you come in and push back or haul.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

BuffaloJoe;1737070 said:


> No wonder this industry is so messed up. I am dizzy over the responses that tell you to do it for nothing. If they want the piles moved then they need to pay for the propper equipment to come out and do it. Its that simple. If not then keep clearing the lot as you normally would untill the tenants have to park in the street. Dont go out of your way because you will get taken advantage of by people who expect freebies. This stuff should have been in your contract but if not your still not obligated to do it for nothing. Do you think the tenants of this place get a periodic break on their rent? I dont think so. Dont give anything away for free... you wont last long. They are playing games because they think you will cave. Dont give it away.


I agree 100%. The agreement is that you are being paid to plow you plow.

If the customer wanted snow to be stacked and or hauled off site then he needs to request that service.

Then pay for it in addition.


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## PorcupineL&SC (Jan 26, 2014)

32vld;1737347 said:


> I agree 100%. The agreement is that you are being paid to plow you plow.
> 
> If the customer wanted snow to be stacked and or hauled off site then he needs to request that service.
> 
> Then pay for it in addition.


Perfect Answer.


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## anz27 (Jan 21, 2014)

Edited original post: Reread OP situation again after posting and changed my mind. DO NOT negotiate with cheap people. Give them a price, and that's it. Its always good to go the extra mile for great customers who are good to you. However, don't be short changed by someone who wants something for nothing. If they are a good customer, they would talk to you about the situation and reach a good mutual agreement rather than trying to push it all on your friend.


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## hedhunter9 (Nov 15, 2008)

A little more info and update.

This apt. complex is a 310 unit... So fairly decent sized...
There was no clause in the contract for stacking snow.
We were told where to push snow.. Those filled up fast.

I have plowed this complex 3 years. 2 for my buddy and before that 1 year for my nephew. 

Several places we used to put snow, they put up fences and added more dumpsters. About 6 more dumpsters spread around. Really hampered our ability to get snow in tight places. They do not have even 10 % of the needed space available for snow piling.

We got blasted with 40MPH winds and snow last night and there were lots of drifts this morning.. BUT... We were very lucky that a LOT of tenants moved their cars out and left us some nice wide spots to push snow.. Sorry about taking up a bunch of parking spots, but they belong to the snow pile now !
Some of our snow piles are over 100 feet long, 8 foot high and 15 feet deep.
We do all this with 2 trucks. (this place has been plowed with 2 trucks for the last 10 years) (we had 3 trucks there today)

Weather predictions call for snow 4 out of the next 5 days..
I told my buddy, we would bust our butts to do what we could and help him out. Pushing our trucks to the limit though. 

Bob
PS.
we are 35 inches above normal snowfall too. (for the season) and 1 blizzard


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

It sounds like its too late now but at one place we will ramp up and over curbs and puch snow 20' back on the grass with the pickups or skid. If the owners will allow it, snow removal doesnt just stop at the curb. 

But keep plowing and offer them an hourly option to stack or haul since its not in the contract


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

If Buff were here, he would say that if there weren't any pix of this site, the snow piles you're describing really never happened...


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Dogplow Dodge;1737794 said:


> If Buff were here, he would say that if there weren't any pix of this site, the snow piles you're describing really never happened...


pixs would be no good,All the piles are covered with snow now.


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## BuffaloJoe (Oct 20, 2009)

hedhunter9;1737786 said:


> A little more info and update.
> 
> This apt. complex is a 310 unit... So fairly decent sized...
> There was no clause in the contract for stacking snow.
> ...


Doesn't change anything... dont give it away for free. "Plowing" and "relocating" are two different things. Dont be afraid of these people. This industry gives enough stuff away for free as it is.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Couple of assumptions here. Since this is a bigger place they might have some amenities. So with that, along with rent they may also be charging a monthly maintenance fee. With that fee snowplowing is paid from it. So they figure out how much they want to pay for plowing. For example, say they budget 10k for plowing. They find someone to plow for 5k. The other 5k goes to a surplus fund with in turns goes to annual profit. They are counting on that 5k ,not if you tell them it will cost 2k to move the piles that is lost profit to them. So they hope for a thraw to melt the snow or hope the tents don't complain to much about the snow.


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

Grandview just hit the nail on the head with that one.


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## dycproperties (Nov 19, 2012)

Doesn't sound like you should be using only trucks on this site I would not haul snow for free but around here we would be expected to stack as much as possible. Not really the customers problem you don't have a loader, sounds like with the limited space stacking every few storms would make sense. Good luck hope things work out and they spring for some hauling.


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## CowboysLC_DE (Aug 17, 2013)

No one has pointed it out yet, but does your insurance cover you or your buddy? Having a wheel loader or skid on the property cost more to cover under plowing insurance, most guys have "basic" coverage which is plowing with a truck and salting.

I would advise going there while it's not snowing and pushing the piles back if you can. Otherwise you have to push it wherever there is an open spot. Make sure your buddy talks to the owner of the complex, he's crazy if he won't spend the extra money to have you guys bring in a loader to move the snow further back. If any loaders are even available to rent in your area, they may already be rented out.

Michael


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

dycproperties;1737833 said:


> Doesn't sound like you should be using only trucks on this site I would not haul snow for free but around here we would be expected to stack as much as possible. Not really the customers problem you don't have a loader, sounds like with the limited space stacking every few storms would make sense. Good luck hope things work out and they spring for some hauling.


Still comes down to what they will pay.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

dycproperties;1737833 said:


> Doesn't sound like you should be using only trucks on this site I would not haul snow for free but around here we would be expected to stack as much as possible. Not really the customers problem you don't have a loader, sounds like with the limited space stacking every few storms would make sense. Good luck hope things work out and they spring for some hauling.


I agree with this


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## dieselboy01 (Jan 18, 2011)

Subscribed.


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## hedhunter9 (Nov 15, 2008)

I just got a message from my friend. They have to pay to have it moved/stacked.. There was a clause for snow relocation due to site conditions that are above and beyond normal scope of snow removal operations.
and base on previous history, this falls under that clause.
They have ok'd him 12 hours of use of a bobcat. ( I dont think that is enough myself)

Right now, we are under a snow emergency, so only emergency vehicles are allowed on the road.
Wednesday, he has rented one for the day, so he will be busy moving and stacking.

And to someone who mentioned going over curbs and pushing snow up on the grass. We have been doing that for weeks.. We have snow piles everywhere there was an opening.. I know how to ramp and to stack..!
Will post some pic's here if I can.
Bob


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## hedhunter9 (Nov 15, 2008)

Heres a few pic's of a couple of the places we pushed up on the lawn. 
and we have many more !
Bob


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## CowboysLC_DE (Aug 17, 2013)

plow drivers are essential personnel, unless your referring to the bobcat delivery. Make sure you guys take it slow since im assuming you haven't had a ton of time in a bobcat. Don't want to bust a curb or back into a car because you were rushing it.

Michael


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## B-2 Lawncare (Feb 11, 2012)

We have stacked snow for other people, ask around. Based on you pictures of your piles we could restack them fairly quick.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

hedhunter9;1738054 said:


> I just got a message from my friend. They have to pay to have it moved/stacked.. There was a clause for snow relocation due to site conditions that are above and beyond normal scope of snow removal operations.
> and base on previous history, this falls under that clause.
> They have ok'd him 12 hours of use of a bobcat. ( I dont think that is enough myself)
> 
> ...


Tell him if does it in 8 keep doing something for next 4 hrs If your renting by the day get all you can
You have Google earth pic of this complex I like see that Funny part when seen them its most same style and color as one I do


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## B-2 Lawncare (Feb 11, 2012)

B-2 Lawncare;1738082 said:


> We have stacked snow for other people, ask around. Based on you pictures of your piles we could restack them fairly quick.


Is this 12 hr for these piles or for the year? We could move a lot of snow in 12 hr.


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## hedhunter9 (Nov 15, 2008)

Well, He ran the bobcat about 6 hours today..
Got about 1/4 done... 

One of the apt. maintenance men was taking over at dark and
was gonna put another 3-4 hours himself on it..

Then tomorrow, put another 6 on it...

Bob


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## watatrp (Jan 10, 2001)

I'm in your area and know what you mean about running out of places to put snow. Luckily most of my accounts are still manageable. Some places I just have to push it farther. Our problem is that it never gets above freezing so the piles are not getting any smaller. In a few small areas I've resorted to using a snow blower to throw the snow up and over the pile. Gives me room for another 4" snow.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

hedhunter9;1740512 said:


> Well, He ran the bobcat about 6 hours today..
> Got about 1/4 done...
> 
> One of the apt. maintenance men was taking over at dark and
> ...


What size and what type skid are you using


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## hedhunter9 (Nov 15, 2008)

Antlerart06;1740576 said:


> What size and what type skid are you using


I didn't get the make/model .. Not a very big one.
It had about a 6 foot bucket on it.
It had the rubber treads, not tires.

It works ok..

(Just wish I had bought the Michigan front-end loader 
I looked at back in September!)

Bob


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

I am in Edwardsburg. I assume you are somewhere in Mishawaka since your picture is labeled Edison. My buddy has a 14' box on his Cat loader and also a 10' blower on his JD tractor. He locates snow for is at $100/hr. Within a couple hours he could probably move anything you wanted. Let me know if you need his info


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## hedhunter9 (Nov 15, 2008)

Ray,
The 14 foot box would not be much help as there is no where for him to push it to..

The tractor/blower might be an interesting option.
But not sure if it could attack the frozen rock hard piles.

Here is a pic of him moving some of the pile.

We are dumping it over a fence into a small swale.
In some other spots he dumped into a small drain pond.
Still working it right now.

Bob


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

hedhunter9;1741126 said:


> I didn't get the make/model .. Not a very big one.
> It had about a 6 foot bucket on it.
> It had the rubber treads, not tires.
> 
> ...


From your pics looks like a Bobcat T190 or smaller from sizs of the tracks
What you done used a the skid plus a truck skid break piles up and the truck could push it to the spot Where skid could dump it over the fence.
Skid works good pushing back or stacking but hauling a good distance from the piles its to slow.
Your truck could push more then that skid could carry.

If I have to move a pile from its spot to a spot farther away I used the skid to push it out to the truck. Then the truck pushes to other spot

Wheel loader would even work better


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

You got a unique arrangement with the apartment maintenance guy running it too. Sounds like you really had nowhere to go, with that machine i bet you could run up and over the pile if theres room on the other side or just bring it up higher.


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