# SIMA vs ASCA?



## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

So guys that have joined either or both, is there any benefits, pitfalls, etc to joining SIMA or ASCA? I've joined SIMA, there was quite a bit of information, especially paperwork with SIMA.

Considering ASCA, so guys that have joined it, what are your thoughts?

For those not sure what I'm talking about:

SIMA: Snow and Ice Management Association
http://www.sima.org/

ASCA: Accredited Snow Contractors Association
https://www.ascaonline.org/about.aspx


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

I get a free magazine from SIMA. Never heard of ASCA.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Subscribed....


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

You should join both, that way u can put their logos on all your bids and letter head. no one in the real work will know what it's about, but at least the organizations got your $500


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Superior L & L;2074718 said:


> You should join both, that way u can put their logos on all your bids and letter head. no one in the real work will know what it's about, but at least the organizations got your $500


Tried that with SIMA lol, didn't affect a single bid at all.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

beanz27;2074748 said:


> Tried that with SIMA lol, didn't affect a single bid at all.


Weird, I thought by being a member you became a "snow professional".


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

beanz27;2074748 said:


> Tried that with SIMA lol, didn't affect a single bid at all.


You should have paid the big bucks to become a CSP, then you would be guaranteed to win every bid.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes;2074778 said:


> You should have paid the big bucks to become a CSP, then you would be guaranteed to win every bid.


At least CSP's are credible professionals who pay their contractors


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010;2074784 said:


> At least CSP's are credible professionals who pay their contractors


You might want to retract that statement.

The very first CSP, the creator of the original CSP test, is no other than John Allin.

I know you're young and don't have the history that some of us do, but beware of broad comments such as the one you made.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;2074788 said:


> The very first CSP, the creator of the original CSP test, is no other than John Allin.


Lol I thought he was the snow king


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes;2074788 said:


> You might want to retract that statement.
> 
> The very first CSP, the creator of the original CSP test, is no other than John Allin.
> 
> I know you're young and don't have the history that some of us do, but beware of broad comments such as the one you made.


I was being sarcastic.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010;2074866 said:


> I was being sarcastic.


Dang, guess I need my sarcasm meter checked.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

So for us young pups, save us a bunch of time googling him and educate us. I've heard of him and seen some videos, but what is bad about him?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Wrong question: what's good aboot him.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

This isn't the first time that I have seen his name come up on here and the responses afterwards were always bad, so I just wondered why he was so disliked on here. The few videos that I have seen of him, I thought he was pretty knowledgeable, but maybe he just fooled me easier than he has you. Just was curious why he was hated so much.


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## beanz27 (Dec 22, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2074778 said:


> You should have paid the big bucks to become a CSP, then you would be guaranteed to win every bid.


The way they make it sound.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

derekslawncare;2074937 said:


> This isn't the first time that I have seen his name come up on here and the responses afterwards were always bad, so I just wondered why he was so disliked on here. The few videos that I have seen of him, I thought he was pretty knowledgeable, but maybe he just fooled me easier than he has you. Just was curious why he was hated so much.


He is one of the guys who are to blame for $100 accounts going for $35 nowadays. He and a few others who are nationally known absolutely ruined the market here in Erie. Perfected the art of the lowball and hack job nationals


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

derekslawncare;2074937 said:


> This isn't the first time that I have seen his name come up on here and the responses afterwards were always bad, so I just wondered why he was so disliked on here. The few videos that I have seen of him, I thought he was pretty knowledgeable, but maybe he just fooled me easier than he has you. Just was curious why he was hated so much.


Long story.

Suffice it to say, as Peteo1 said, JAA is the one who turned plowing into a commodity.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

As much as theses guys dislike JAA for some of his past actions he is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the snow removal industry. His business mistakes in no way discredit that. His "Snow Fighters Institute' is teaching people to get better at snow removal in all aspects. It provides beginners the chance to learn lessons many of us had to learn the hard way and can provide a basis for newcomers to learn the business without costly mistakes. 

Some of these guy have no forgiveness and are still picking at 20 year old wounds, don't discount him, just don't sign any contracts. Hahaha

SIMA offers excellent educational and networking opportunities while ASCA is working towards revised slip and fall legislation, and has testified before congress and meet with many lawmakers to try and bring some reasonable standards to what is perhaps the largest issue facing snow removal contractors.


Release the Trolls


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

peteo1;2075080 said:


> He is one of the guys who are to blame for $100 accounts going for $35 nowadays. He and a few others who are nationally known absolutely ruined the market here in Erie. Perfected the art of the lowball and hack job nationals


Ok, well that makes since. I've only been plowing for 10yrs, so all that happened before I got into the industry. Thanks for explaining.


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## Derek'sDumpstersInc (Jul 13, 2014)

basher;2075957 said:


> As much as theses guys dislike JAA for some of his past actions he is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the snow removal industry. His business mistakes in no way discredit that. His "Snow Fighters Institute' is teaching people to get better at snow removal in all aspects. It provides beginners the chance to learn lessons many of us had to learn the hard way and can provide a basis for newcomers to learn the business without costly mistakes.
> 
> Some of these guy have no forgiveness and are still picking at 20 year old wounds, don't discount him, just don't sign any contracts. Hahaha
> 
> ...


Ok, good to know. Thanks.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

basher;2075957 said:


> As much as theses guys dislike JAA for some of his past actions he is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the snow removal industry. His business mistakes in no way discredit that. His "Snow Fighters Institute' is teaching people to get better at snow removal in all aspects. It provides beginners the chance to learn lessons many of us had to learn the hard way and can provide a basis for newcomers to learn the business without costly mistakes.
> 
> Some of these guy have no forgiveness and are still picking at 20 year old wounds, don't discount him, just don't sign any contracts. Hahaha
> 
> ...


Never said he wasn't\isn't knowledgeable regarding the snow and ice industry. However, he is lacking in business management skills.

Screwing your subs and vendors is not great business management. Stringing them out of several years, while bragging about constructing a million+ dollar state of the art snow command center, selling to Symbiot, Symbiot moving SMG to Utah where bankruptcy and creditor recovery laws are different, then finally settling with creditors for 75% over an 18 month period is nothing to brag aboot.

I don't give a flying fig how much one knows aboot the actual industry itself if that same person can't operate that business profitably.

If he knows so much, where is SMG now? Where is Symbiot now? No, it wasn't something that kept on getting sold to other people because the person in charge was there to build it up, make it profitable and sell it. Because that's happened with Brickman and plenty of other companies, that have kept their names.

That's the short story. But hey, if you can't take the word of someone who lives in the city where it all happened, you can always accept basher's word from 500+ miles away.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Well, what do I know. I only watched it happen. I dont have a problem with him being knowledgeable because he is. He knows a lot more about snow removal than a lot of people who are in this business but that being said he also is shady as hell when it comes to business practices. I have heard from reputable on more than one occasion that they and others had to basically strong arm John and his wife for money they were owed. You can call it picking 20 year old scabs all you want but I know for a fact there are tons of accounts here going for 50-60% less than what they were 20 years ago. I honestly don't know how these guys are doing it and making any profit


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

So then we all agree, he knows a snow pot load about ice and snow management but we wouldn't buy a used car from him.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If you consider knowing how to screw over subs and vendors a snow pot load, sure, we agree.

If you consider lowballing to increase volume a snow pot load, sure.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

Mark Oomkes;2076375 said:


> If you consider knowing how to screw over subs and vendors a snow pot load, sure, we agree.
> 
> If you consider lowballing to increase volume a snow pot load, sure.


When I first looked into joining sima,the asca or the snow fighters institute I found it very strange that the same man either started or was involved with all three. My first thought was that guy has to be some sorta of snake oil salesmen trying to collect fairly expensive membership fees. I never heard of John Allin before so after doing a little research on him, it sounds like he is a total scumbag and is basically the founding father of the NSP's and super low commercial plowing prices. Mr. Mark Oomkes wrote a very informative posts over a year ago on here that gives a very good history lesson about sima and John Allin and the birth of scumbag national service providers


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