# 24 acres of land to plow and salt



## SnowGeekJason

Hello all! As the 2016-2017 winter season is approaching I have been blessed with a opportunity to bid a UPS shipping and receiving distribution center. The area is 24 acres of plow-able land all of it needs to be salted as well. Correct me if i am wrong but i figure a CAT 924 along with a 16 foot box plow, two pickup trucks with 8'2 v blades can plow and salt this within 5 hours. The area is nothing but asphalt for most of it. Maybe a light pole every 500 feet. site manager already understands that there will be a retainer fee just to keep the CAT 924 on the property at all times. He was the one that actually told me to show that serperate. I am able to get my salt for $49/ton delivered on site and stored in the SILO that they provide just for us. My questions is what do you think is a fair price? My math is this. 

Machine $26,000 for five months 
Insurance up charge $4,000 (to cover machine and owner wants 2 million dollar blanket policy) 
Fuel $2,000
Salt $8,250 
New blades for plow $500.

Estimated 30 salting trips and 17 plowing trips. 


Based off of the 1,022,400 square feet of land to be plowed i thought $143,000 is a good number for me to give to the customer for a plan that has a no snow cap nor a salt cap unless the price of salt raises over 50% of what it is currently. the $143,000 would be good NOV 15- April 15. 

If customer wants per push price this is what i think. 

$2,400 for any amount up to four inches of snow, after that it is $800 per four inches. 

salting is $750/ application. 

A upfront retainer fee of $20,000 and than four $5,000 payments for each month thereafter. 

FYI there is only 100 feet of sidewalk to deal with. 

Anyone wanna chime in? 
good or bad pricing?


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## Defcon 5

SnowGeekJason said:


> Hello all! As the 2016-2017 winter season is approaching I have been blessed with a opportunity to bid a UPS shipping and receiving distribution center. The area is 24 acres of plow-able land all of it needs to be salted as well. Correct me if i am wrong but i figure a CAT 924 along with a 16 foot box plow, two pickup trucks with 8'2 v blades can plow and salt this within 5 hours. The area is nothing but asphalt for most of it. Maybe a light pole every 500 feet. site manager already understands that there will be a retainer fee just to keep the CAT 924 on the property at all times. He was the one that actually told me to show that serperate. I am able to get my salt for $49/ton delivered on site and stored in the SILO that they provide just for us. My questions is what do you think is a fair price? My math is this.
> 
> Machine $26,000 for five months
> Insurance up charge $4,000 (to cover machine and owner wants 2 million dollar blanket policy)
> Fuel $2,000
> Salt $8,250
> New blades for plow $500.
> 
> Estimated 30 salting trips and 17 plowing trips.
> 
> Based off of the 1,022,400 square feet of land to be plowed i thought $143,000 is a good number for me to give to the customer for a plan that has a no snow cap nor a salt cap unless the price of salt raises over 50% of what it is currently. the $143,000 would be good NOV 15- April 15.
> 
> If customer wants per push price this is what i think.
> 
> $2,400 for any amount up to four inches of snow, after that it is $800 per four inches.
> 
> salting is $750/ application.
> 
> A upfront retainer fee of $20,000 and than four $5,000 payments for each month thereafter.
> 
> FYI there is only 100 feet of sidewalk to deal with.
> 
> Anyone wanna chime in?
> good or bad pricing?


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## Defcon 5

Couple of questions to start...

How much salt per app are you basing your estamate...??

Is there an hour limit on the rental machine...??

$500 for "New" Blades??

What has been the largest account to date you have maintained.???

What part of the country are you located..??


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## SnowGeekJason

Defcon 5 said:


> Couple of questions to start...
> 
> How much salt per app are you basing your estimate...??
> 
> Is there an hour limit on the rental machine...??
> 
> $500 for "New" Blades??
> 
> What has been the largest account to date you have maintained.???
> 
> What part of the country are you located..??


Located right out of Detroit Michigan. I figure 5 tons of salt needed for 24 acres. Blades for the plow. I figure i''ll go through a set or close to a set with this much plowing. kinda just through that in there for sh*ts and giggles. 
Largest account has been for a church that had 11 acres of plowing to be done. We were able to get by with one truck and a skid steer with that and about two tons of salt per application.


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## FredG

Wow, I sure hope that salt price don't change, That's a very low price for salt.


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## Defcon 5

Gonna take a wee bit more than 5 tons for 24 acres to get the desired results I bet they are looking for...


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## Defcon 5

Since it's in the Detoilet Market...I bet that account goes for under a $100k all inclusive


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## John_DeereGreen

What are you planning on salting it with?

In my opinion, 24 acres of wide open asphalt with nothing but light poles calls for a bigger machine than a 924, and a larger box than 16 feet. And I don't think trucks have any need at all to be around this.


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## Defcon 5

John_DeereGreen said:


> What are you planning on salting it with?
> 
> In my opinion, 24 acres of wide open asphalt with nothing but light poles calls for a bigger machine than a 924, and a larger box than 16 feet. And I don't think trucks have any need at
> 
> all to be around this.


Correct me if I'm wrong Mr.DeereGreen...On a Snow lease on a machine..There is a pretty big price jump from a 924 to a 936...Then an even larger increase to a 950..I bet that's what he is looking at....

I think all you need in this Lot is Oomkes with his Cummings Ebling and Blizzard-Ex plow


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## kimber750

I know the guys that do our local UPS terminal here. Don't know the size but they use 2 loaders, a backhoe and 3 trucks. In our one big storm last season they billed over $100k.


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## John_DeereGreen

Defcon 5 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong Mr.DeereGreen...On a Snow lease on a machine..There is a pretty big price jump from a 924 to a 936...Then an even larger increase to a 950..I bet that's what he is looking at....
> 
> I think all you need in this Lot is Oomkes with his Cummings Ebling and Blizzard-Ex plow


No idea, we own all our snow equipment. If that's the case for real, then maybe 2 would be a better solution. I just don't see that one machine keeping up well.

Maybe he should just buy a couple 4' The Snow Plow shovels and get Jose and Guadalupe to run them. That'd be better than the Cummings powered plowin' machine!


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## Defcon 5

Lol...How dare you down grade The King of Snow Oomkes Skills....If he plows half as well as he trolls....He should be King Plow....


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## Defcon 5

To the OP...I would subcontract the loader...Pay him a $2000 a month retainer..He works off that...That way the fuel and operator are his responsibility....Even if we have an "Epic" winter your loader costs will come nowhere near the $26 grand your gonna pay Michigan Cat...Also you might wanna take a look at you salt usage for that site


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## Mark Oomkes

How did you come up with 5 tons? 

How did you come up with 15 hours of plowing time? 

How many loading docks? 

Maybe a light pole every 500'? Does that mean that maybe there aren't?


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## Mark Oomkes

_Hello, I work in South East Michigan Metro Detroit area and i have an amazing opportunity to Clear 2 huge apartment towers parking lots and sidewalks. Only problem it I do not have the capitol to go a month or so without being paid and for the estimated 8 tons of salt needed per clearing. plus needing another truck to handle the other 5 commercial and 30 residential contracts i have. (Billing at end of month) If the price per clearing is about $8,000 and the trigger is 1in for salt and 2in for plowing is it a bad idea to ask for a down payment of $40,000 or so? Average events range from 10-15 throughout the year ._

Things that make you say "hmmmmmmm".


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## Defcon 5

Someone has some explaining to do...:hammerhead:


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## Defcon 5

Did you get the two huge apartment towers from last year???...I'm probably gonna get in trouble from mr.MJD for saying this...You have no business bidding on this account.Your clearly still not ready to play in the big boy sandbox...Stick to Dollar General and Fast Food chains...The pricing has been so beating up in the Detroit Metro market by clueless Contractors


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> _Hello, I work in South East Michigan Metro Detroit area and i have an amazing opportunity to Clear 2 huge apartment towers parking lots and sidewalks. Only problem it I do not have the capitol to go a month or so without being paid and for the estimated 8 tons of salt needed per clearing. plus needing another truck to handle the other 5 commercial and 30 residential contracts i have. (Billing at end of month) If the price per clearing is about $8,000 and the trigger is 1in for salt and 2in for plowing is it a bad idea to ask for a down payment of $40,000 or so? Average events range from 10-15 throughout the year ._
> 
> Things that make you say "hmmmmmmm".


I remember that post, I wonder what ever happened with that job.


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## Masssnowfighter

24 acres with only 1 loader on site and you will be in huge trouble if you ever get a big storm or if that loader was to have any sort of breakdown. Pick up trucks are pretty useless at distribution centers. So I would eliminate them and add at least 1 more loader with a 16' pusher. We run 3 loaders at our 25 acre site.


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## John_DeereGreen

Well this just got interesting.


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## Randall Ave

How any door terminal is it? Your gonna be there for a while as they move trucks/trailer to finish cleaning up. And I think your low on your salt usage.


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## Masssnowfighter

definitely low on salt usage, better plan on buying a metal pless or arctic pusher because a rubber edge pusher will just give you 24 acres of hard pack. And I can speak from experience 5 tons wont cut the mustard if that happens to you


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## SnowGeekJason

Alright to everyone out there.. Here is the low down.

From the time i posted last year of the apartments stuff has changed. That was my first year out of high school
We have gained about 60 more weekly lawn accounts (more income) 
Lots of landscape contracts and now we even have schools and city contracts. 
We have hired 13 more employees than prior year 
Have invested $60,000 in new equipment this year 
Contracted with another landscape company in the area..


Also Last year we ended up with a 11 acre church which went smoothly along with 12 other commercial accounts. Shopping plazas, schools, churches, industrial center. 

The reason i was in a panic last year was because I did not have much capital, along with fleet or man power. This year is different. 

I have spent endless hours on the phone with many different buddies and dealers. They all said about the same thing. Either two CAT 420 with a 14' box plow or one CAT 924 or 938 with a 16'. There is a $7,000 price point difference between the two. If i run two machines the higher the insurance and general operating cost. 

Most places said that a CAT 924 should be fine up to a foot of soft snow or 6in of heavy snow. But of course i would not dare Waite for it to get that high before i send guys out. But every different place i talked to said I should not go bigger than 16' box on any of the equipment. One guy said ya lets throw a 24' box on there and a VOLVO L120 for $10,500 a month. 


I re crunched the numbers for salt and maybe 7 tons? 

I see the one posters point if this one machine breaks down what do i do? CAT has assured me that I would have a new machine to either match it or beat it within hours of reporting the issue on the 24/7 hotline. Worse case send the two dump trucks we got and 4 pickups. 


No loading bays for this surprisingly. It is all flat with the loading docks raised with the building. It is mainly used for the box trucks not semis. And yes there are probably 20 light post in the whole parking lot. Most lights are either on the building or 13 foot tall fence. 

To defcon 5: I respectfully denied the bid request and explained to the customer why. He appreciates that i was up front. If i thought this place was to big for us I would stay clear. But i now have the capital to take it on but not lose money ere ago the retainer fees which even the customer asked for those prices separately with out me mentioning it. 


Again right now looking at pricing to see if im in the ball park. 

Thanks, 
Jason


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## John_DeereGreen

You're in over your head. Walk away.


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## SnowGeekJason

John_DeereGreen said:


> You're in over your head. Walk away.


Okay, than how did you get your foot in the door? At what point did you say to yourself I need to take a leap of faith and bid large projects.


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## Defcon 5

So...Your 20??...I will give you credit for wanting to grow your business...

On that note...Your not ready for this..Why you ask??...You don't even know how to price it let alone know what equipment it takes to tackle an account this size...BTW..Your getting closer on the salt usage...Keep "Crunching" those numbers...

Another indicator that tells me your not ready...You really quick to wanna hand over $25k to Michigan cat when there is a ton of loader subcontractors out there that you would probably pay half that amount to in a winter..


Third indicator is....Your living in fantasy land if you think that account is gonna get anywhere near the $150k your bidding in this market...I bet you could make more per truck hour plowing residential driveways than what that account is gonna bid out for...


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## Defcon 5

Jason...I'm not trying to be a jerk to you...Let's call it tough love


I have a couple more questions....How do retainer fees equal not losing money??...


The other thing is...Don't believe everything a Cat salesman tells you...CAT opens at 7am...By the time they get the message your loader is broken assuming you the only one...Which you won't be...You won't see a replacement for 6-12 hours minumum


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## John_DeereGreen

SnowGeekJason said:


> Okay, than how did you get your foot in the door? At what point did you say to yourself I need to take a leap of faith and bid large projects.


Most people start with smaller lots, 2-3 acres and build experience for a couple seasons, then go to 5-7 for a year or two, then 10, and so on. I never took a leap of faith anywhere near this size. Any more than 20% increase in property size from your norm and you're asking for trouble.

Going from 11 acres on a church that you say you had last winter (which was pitiful overall) to a 24 acre distribution facility that runs 24 hours is a whole different ball game. In fact, about the only thing that'll be similar is that there's snow that needs plowed and salted.

Your salt estimate is still 25% low, and you're still in fantasy land trying to plow it with one loader that size and 2 trucks. The only thing trucks may be good for here is to windrow, and even that is debatable.

If that lot were in my market, it would under, as deacon said, 100k. Rough estimate, probably around 75-80k. You guys get a bit more snow than us, but not much.


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## Masssnowfighter

No guts no glory, I had everyone telling me I was in way over my head as well when I made the transition from residential/ small commercials to big industrial accounts. The most important thing you should be doing now if you do get the account is go to the bank and secure a very large line of credit for your business so you can go out and buy your own equipment and not waste it on rentals. Plus money gets exhausted very quickly on these large accounts so its nice to have that money available if you need it till your payments come in


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## Defcon 5

That's true...No guts no Glory....But I bet when you went out to find glory you had somewhat of a clue...

I also find it interesting...In less than one years time..He has gone from one truck and no money...To 5-6 trucks...13 employees an and already nice portfolio of Churches..School districts..Shopping plazas and 60 residential accounts... But yet he is on here looking for confirmation on bidding this account....


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## BUFF

Defcon 5 said:


> That's true...No guts no Glory....But I bet when you went out to find glory you had somewhat of a clue...
> 
> I also find it interesting...In less than one years time..He has gone from one truck and no money...To 5-6 trucks...13 employees an and already nice portfolio of Churches..School districts..Shopping plazas and 60 residential accounts... But yet he is on here looking for confirmation on bidding this account....


You forgot adding $60k in equipment....


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## John_DeereGreen

Defcon 5 said:


> I also find it interesting...In less than one years time..He has gone from one truck and no money...To 5-6 trucks...13 employees an and already nice portfolio of Churches..School districts..Shopping plazas and 60 residential accounts... But yet he is on here looking for confirmation on bidding this account....


Things that make ya go "hmmm"


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## Defcon 5

BUFF said:


> You forgot adding $60k in equipment....


Your up early.....Going out to shoot something??


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## FredG

LapeerLandscape said:


> I remember that post, I wonder what ever happened with that job.


It went to one of the clueless Detroit metro area guys,


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## SnowGeekJason

Yes I am 20, yes I did receive about 60 more accounts not all are residential about 5 or commercial accounts. But yes I don't know if you guys know my area at all but it is about a house every 60 feet. Picking up accounts is easy as heck around here, because everyone is old, lazy, or just has to much freaking money. Or the few that actually have an acre or two sized lawn. 

The truck park is how i get to $60,000. We personally got a used 2008 F-250 extended cab with a boss DXT plow $34,000. And if you read between the lines in my essay up there we have contracted with another company to help with primary landscaping and snow this year. That's where i get 4 trucks. 


The rest of the money has been invested into other stuff such as trailer, mowers Lexmark lazer x series and vantage mower, blowers, whips, edgers and new shop equipment. Ta da $60,000, (mixed with my credit and good o'll college savings and grandpas personal investment.


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## BUFF

Defcon 5 said:


> Your up early.....Going out to shoot something??


Always up by 5:30a providing went to bed by 10p.
Actually putting together a couple new bids that would also include summer grounds maintenance too.


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## FredG

Defcon 5 said:


> Did you get the two huge apartment towers from last year???...I'm probably gonna get in trouble from mr.MJD for saying this...You have no business bidding on this account.Your clearly still not ready to play in the big boy sandbox...Stick to Dollar General and Fast Food chains...The pricing has been so beating up in the Detroit Metro market by clueless Contractors


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Looks like your OK.  :hammerhead:


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## SnowGeekJason

Also Defcon I appreciate you being straight with me and a description. I give it that way to straight forward. And yes 13 employees. We work about 60 hours a week per crew. So i have divided it up between the 13 people. Granted there are some part time high school students in that number for weeding, mulching, and stuff like such. 

I never said school districts they are private schools. Three of them, four churches, 5 office buildings, and three condos, and a small medical "village". I can thank Home advisor for most of this. 

The city contract is only for landscaping, mowing and plowing is in house.


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## FredG

Masssnowfighter said:


> 24 acres with only 1 loader on site and you will be in huge trouble if you ever get a big storm or if that loader was to have any sort of breakdown. Pick up trucks are pretty useless at distribution centers. So I would eliminate them and add at least 1 more loader with a 16' pusher. We run 3 loaders at our 25 acre site.


Ya and if you don't have 100K+ in them this is easy to do. I recondition in the summer months, I can bring 3 easily, I can bring a couple of sidewalk machines if needed and a big bad @ss blower for back up. You got to have the clubs to play the game.


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## LapeerLandscape

I am a little confused or maybe you are. You just said you had 5 commercial accounts a couple minutes ago and now you have 3 private schools, 4 churches, 5 office buildings, 3 condos and a medical village.


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## SnowGeekJason

But we are getting off track. I will bid on this property If i win and do well, which i know we can. Than I know what to do in the future. 

And I have talked to John deere, cat, and VOLO, and kawasaki about loaders. Not just CAT. Deere seemed to come in second place which options and pricing, Kawasaki and spotty backup if something goes south but not rental options for box plow. It did cross my mind about looking at some of the local construction groups or landscaping that does not do snow or about their stuff but i need to look at liability, backup stuff, plus some don't have what i need. 

So maybe i was off with my math $0.14/ square foot. It worked well last year with my commercial accounts. I didn't bid a job last year that i didn't get. I figure I will spend $50,000 in just materials such and insurance, salt, and equipment on this job. Not including labor or fuel. So hell, $93,000 i say? I doubt it will come to $43,000 in labor and fuel. We get on average about 10 snow storms and 28 salting.


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## SnowGeekJason

Five commercial for snow. We picked up more in the spring. 


LapeerLandscape said:


> I am a little confused or maybe you are. You just said you had 5 commercial accounts a couple minutes ago and now you have 3 private schools, 4 churches, 5 office buildings, 3 condos and a medical village.


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## Defcon 5

Jason....Dont wanna beat you up anymore over this...You seem like a good kid with ambition....I would stick with plowing smaller commercial and resi untill you gain more knowledge in this field....It seems like your heading in the right direction...These bigger places are a whole different animal


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## Defcon 5

Jason...I guess I will be the bearer of bad news...Trust me on this...You will NOT get this account with the numbers you have presented..


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## LapeerLandscape

Defcon 5 said:


> Jason...I guess I will be the bearer of bad news...Trust me on this...You will NOT get this account with the numbers you have presented..


I will say one thing about it, at least he's not trying to say he can do it for $50,000 or $60,000 like some of the people out there.


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## FredG

Well this is good you made your first $60k investment and everything is going your way, New mowers etc. I have one ? If you truly wanted to play in the snow with some acreage. Why did you not invest on any snow equipment, You don't have nothing with a bucket skid whatever, If that lakes drops you something sweet you can't possibly get your resi's out. JMO I think you should of got some advise before you dropped that kind of investment. Thumbs Up


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## FredG

Ok, Lots of guys use snow lease, This will not cut it in the long pic. Maybe you could be happy with the earnings. The loaders we invested in payed for them self's the first season, Maybe with a 50K investment with 8 to 10k with reconditioning. I know your smart and young but be very cautious with debt with the exception of cash flow. You can acquire a owner operator instead of a snow lease. We used to take 90 to 120 day notes.


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## John_DeereGreen

So we went from 140k to 93k in a half dozen posts. 

I'll say it since saying it nicely isn't getting through. 

You're an idiot that needs to stick with residential and small commercial. You're just going to waste your own time trying to sell work for the prices you're suggesting, and you clearly are proving you don't know what you're doing. 

Move on.


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## Maclawnco

Here's a rule of thumb for you or anyone wanting to get into big acres: "If you have to rent the box, you're in over your head".


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## Defcon 5

Maclawnco said:


> Here's a rule of thumb for you or anyone wanting to get into big acres: "If you have to rent the box, you're in over your head".


Don't you have any gently used Arctics you could sell him???...


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## Defcon 5

John_DeereGreen said:


> So we went from 140k to 93k in a half dozen posts.
> 
> I'll say it since saying it nicely isn't getting through.
> 
> You're an idiot that needs to stick with residential and small commercial. You're just going to waste your own time trying to sell work for the prices you're suggesting, and you clearly are proving you don't know what you're doing.
> 
> Move on.


Don't sugar coat it...Tell us how you really feel...


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## Maclawnco

Jason, it's not that we dont want you to succeed. In fact it's quite the opposite. But the info you're sharing with us says you're not ready.


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## Maclawnco

Defcon 5 said:


> Don't you have any gently used Arctics you could sell him???...


Actually, yes, I was going to post (3) 16s and (1) 14 HD for sale before too long. Or we have (3) 16 ft metal Pless boxes we can sell as one season used - wasn't planning on selling those but anything is for sale for the right price.


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## FredG

Maclawnco said:


> Here's a rule of thumb for you or anyone wanting to get into big acres: "If you have to rent the box, you're in over your head".


 X2 Verygood!


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## John_DeereGreen

Defcon 5 said:


> Don't sugar coat it...Tell us how you really feel...


He's had how many people tell him it's not a good idea, and he's not ready? And if I remember right, this is about how last years thread went.

Give it a few years and yes, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. But still not with the machine/truck setup he's suggesting and certainly not for the prices he's suggesting.


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## Masssnowfighter

Jason, this is the amount of equipment I keep on site for my 25 acres . I don't always use every piece, but when it is snowing 2" an hour or if something breaks down I am glad it is all there. Pick up trucks and new rental equipment is not the best plan of attack on large sites


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## Mark Oomkes

If you won every bid you sent oot, you're too low with your prices.


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> If you won every bid you sent oot, you're too low with your prices.


Atleast he's trying to drive the price up.


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## LapeerLandscape

Masssnowfighter said:


> Jason, this is the amount of equipment I keep on site for my 25 acres . I don't always use every piece, but when it is snowing 2" an hour or if something breaks down I am glad it is all there. Pick up trucks and new rental equipment is not the best plan of attack on large sites
> 
> View attachment 166228


Do you have a preference of the Boss or the Arctic.


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## Masssnowfighter

The metal pless scrapes the best hands down, but the BOSS is way more heavy duty and half the price. I am phasing out the Arctics because I am sick of buying blocks for them


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## Masssnowfighter

Here is a good side by side comparison


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## Defcon 5

I think we upset the lad....Let us know how your bid turns out Jason...


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## FredG

Defcon 5 said:


> I think we upset the lad....Let us know how your bid turns out Jason...


Jason will be alright, He got beat up a little last season, He got his hand on a little $ and a kick from G pop and a little earnings, No body really hit him between the eyes, Just facts and years of experience.

This board is a ruff bunch, With the exception of me.   Takes a little while to mix in. Thumbs Up


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## Philbilly2

FredG said:


> This board is a ruff bunch, With the exception of me.   Takes a little while to mix in. Thumbs Up


I think I remember you hitting me between the eyes once last season!!! :clapping_O


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## Defcon 5

Philbilly2 said:


> I think I remember you hitting me between the eyes once last season!!! :clapping_O


Fred has calmed down alot....I think the Xanex is working....


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## Philbilly2

Defcon 5 said:


> Fred has calmed down alot....I think the Xanex is working....


^ CLASSIC!

In Fred's defense, he did later apologize... LOL!

As I told him, no need to apologize to me as I was trying to get a rise out of somone!


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## Defcon 5

Fred and I found the common ground also...I like the old coots sense of Humor...:waving:


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## Randall Ave

Fred's not that old. You know your old when you've been married longer than some guys on here been alive.


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## FredG

Defcon 5 said:


> Fred has calmed down alot....I think the Xanex is working....


The new stuff is Clonazepam, Works very well, Them Tic tac xanex and other things weren't cutting it. Thumbs Up


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## FredG

Philbilly2 said:


> ^ CLASSIC!
> 
> In Fred's defense, he did later apologize... LOL!
> 
> As I told him, no need to apologize to me as I was trying to get a rise out of somone!


My worldly travels have had a affect on me. Never the less if a apology is in place I'm there.


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## FredG

Randall Ave said:


> Fred's not that old. You know your old when you've been married longer than some guys on here been alive.


Who's Defcon calling old. My Family still is waiting for me to grow up, My nose and eyes still work very well. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


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## Randall Ave

My birth day's tomorrow, wife said if she bakes me a cake and puts all the candles on it it'll burn the house down.


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## FredG

Randall Ave said:


> My birth day's tomorrow, wife said if she bakes me a cake and puts all the candles on it it'll burn the house down.


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: Age is just a number, Work hard and play hard is my intended route. Happy Birthday


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## LapeerLandscape

Randall Ave said:


> My birth day's tomorrow, wife said if she bakes me a cake and puts all the candles on it it'll burn the house down.


Well Happy Birthday Randall, call the fire dept.


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## Mike_PS

Well, looks like this one's run its course so I'm closing it out for now :waving:


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