# Sidewalk Salt



## snowconcepts (Dec 29, 2004)

Does anyone know of other suppliers in nw Ohio or Michigan for sidewalk salt. I was using John Deere Landscape & now they are telling me they dont have much salt left and they don't want to order anymore.


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## mrplowdude (Apr 16, 2005)

You should have a lesco in your area. They should be better priced to. I use Lesco's Ice melt 2 and love it. Its landscape safe and concrete safe to.


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## Ultimate inc (Jan 22, 2007)

no **** a lesco just opened in my area and i didn't know what it was do you reccomend getting salt and seed from them it looks like that's all they sell they haven't even opened the doors for business yet i think it should be this week.


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## magnatrac (Dec 22, 2006)

Nice to hear that I am not the only one going to lessco, When all of the suppliers around me are out of salt you can usually count on them to have what you need. The guys there actually like seeing people in the winter, I think that they are usually dead this time of year. I go to the flint,mi store. They said that salt in not something that they push hard so many people don't realize thay have it.


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## IndySnowPlow (Dec 30, 2004)

magnatrac;360387 said:


> Nice to hear that I am not the only one going to lessco, When all of the suppliers around me are out of salt you can usually count on them to have what you need. The guys there actually like seeing people in the winter, I think that they are usually dead this time of year. I go to the flint,mi store. They said that salt in not something that they push hard so many people don't realize thay have it.


Wow !!!!! what kinda price do you pay??? I checked the local Lesco here in Indy and they wanted almost $7 a bag ( pallett quantity ) In a desperate need I can stop by Menards and get 80# bags of rock salt for $4.00 a bag no minimum.


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## magnatrac (Dec 22, 2006)

I haven't had to go to lessco yet this year. They are a bit more expensive but I never thought I was getting taken for a ride. It was always cheaper than going to the home depo or lowes. The biggest cost differance was the fact that they only had 50's. I know they are not the cheapest but when they have what you need and nobody else does, it's well worth it! I should have made a better point that I don't but all of my ice melters there. It is just a nice place to have in your back pocket when needed! At 7.00 a bag I wouldn't even think about going there either. If you can get $4.00 a bag at menards, thats a great price, I think I am paying around $4.30 a bag pallet price for 80's( not from lesco ). I know guys that are paying over $5.00 so I guess I am happy. Again leasco is just a good place to know about in a pinch!!!


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## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

I'm giving $2.50 a bag for 50# bags.


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## mrplowdude (Apr 16, 2005)

You guys kill me. Rock salt is not ment to be put on walkways. Normally walkway salt is small pellets. Plus most walks are concrete or brick. Rock salt will destroy that. Lesco's material is Landscape safe it won't kill any grass or flowers abutting walkways. It is also concrete safe. When you compare 2 items then compare apples to apples not apples and oranges.


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## magnatrac (Dec 22, 2006)

My condos get nothing other than landscapers choice, or dragon melt if I cannot get a hold of LSC. For two years we used peladow, but they decided that it was too hard on their plants. We give the customer a choice as to what they want to pay for. I like using stuff other than salt becasue it keeps me alot cleaner. The calcium was the worst, I hated that stuff. I ended up puting the rest on my gravel driveway over the summer. I use LSC on the entire parking lot at the local vet clinic we service. We got the job becsue the guy before would come in with his v box and just make a mess. I use half a pallet of " ice melter" every time I go out!!! So I argee salt does not belong on side walks.


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## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

Anyplace that we have turf to sidewalk conditions, Landscapers choice is used. We use other things such as tigermelt and another off brand (orange stuff) otherwise. the thing about the landscapers choice, that I think alot of people don't realize if they've never used it, is that it may indeed cost more, but you get a longer residual from it. many times, after you've put it down and it works, it can snow again, and it still works. When you DO re-shovel, that stuf comes off like the sidewalks have a teflon coating. By the feel of the shovel, you would think the sidewalks are lubricated like with silicone, or something....but to walk on them, it is full traction. The only downfall is that the stuff is about $500 a pallet.


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## magnatrac (Dec 22, 2006)

Runner are you getting your landscapers choice from osmuns? I had to go to chemco for salt the other afternoon and saw that they are now selling LSC. I agree I love the residual too. This year I haven't really had to plow the driveways much becasue the small snows were half melted. Just reapply the lsc. and scrape the streets( we only treat drives and walks) My customers love the fact that their houses don't get trashed with salt!!!


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## dmontgomery (Oct 3, 2003)

mrplowdude;360881 said:


> You guys kill me. Rock salt is not ment to be put on walkways. Normally walkway salt is small pellets. Plus most walks are concrete or brick. Rock salt will destroy that. Lesco's material is Landscape safe it won't kill any grass or flowers abutting walkways. It is also concrete safe. When you compare 2 items then compare apples to apples not apples and oranges.


Isn't the damage to concrete related the the freezing and thawing process not the chemical you use??? The water accesses the porious concrete surface, refreezes and causes spalling......

D


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## customers_snow (Sep 15, 2002)

I am not intending to hurt anyone's feelings or sound arrogant in any way, but it amazes me that a good number of the people on this website have such limited knowledge about ice melters. If you are going to call yourself a professional in the snow removal business, you should know this stuff. Get educated please. I would encourage all of you to join the Snow and Ice Management Association or any other association that provides educational opportunities.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Runner;363213 said:


> Anyplace that we have turf to sidewalk conditions, Landscapers choice is used. We use other things such as tigermelt and another off brand (orange stuff) otherwise. the thing about the landscapers choice, that I think alot of people don't realize if they've never used it, is that it may indeed cost more, but you get a longer residual from it. many times, after you've put it down and it works, it can snow again, and it still works. When you DO re-shovel, that stuf comes off like the sidewalks have a teflon coating. By the feel of the shovel, you would think the sidewalks are lubricated like with silicone, or something....but to walk on them, it is full traction. The only downfall is that the stuff is about $500 a pallet.


Also with Landscapers Choice you can put down a lot less product than say Tiger melt. One of the problems is you have to educate the applicator because it can get real expesive if they put it down real heavy!


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## customers_snow (Sep 15, 2002)

What is in the Landscaper's Choice that makes it work so well?


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## sunriseturf (Nov 2, 2005)

I think landscapers choice is CMA (calcium manganese acetate)...It's a non chloride ice melt.


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## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

dmontgomery;363739 said:


> Isn't the damage to concrete related the the freezing and thawing process not the chemical you use??? The water accesses the porious concrete surface, refreezes and causes spalling....D


This is exactly right. Actually, it is not the fact that it is the salt that affects the concrete chemically, but it is the constant expansion and thawing within the porous concrete that causes the damage. Now,...here is a little added info to this, as to why straight salt (sodium chloride) is not advised for use on walks.

As a general rule of thumb, the more material that is put down, the more brine is going to be formed. Subsequent to that, the more brine is formed and spread, the more soaking in to the porous concrete will take place. Now, on a chemical basis, it takes more sodium chloride (or atleast more is generally used) to melt x amount of ice, because sodium has a higher freeze point temperature than other elements that are used. In other words, salt doesn't work at as low of temps than other ice melt products. Therefore, people tend to use more. Now, if you can get the same results with less of a product to seep into the concrete, then it is less effective brine to seep, as well. Now, here is ANOTHER aspect of this, and probably the most important, is this; Some people that think that because some products are "hotter" than others, that _they_ do the most damage, because of the amount of thawing they do...think backwards, that the thawing does the expansion. This is not the case. As a matter of fact, the exact opposite - not so much the faster thawing, but from THIS point of view; It is not the temperature difference that causes the damage to the concrete, as much as it is the _frequency_ of the thawing and refreezing. Now, back to the sodium (salt). Remember how it was explained earlier that salt has a freeze point at higher temps than the other chemicals and elements? Well, with this in mind, brine from salt is going to freeze and refreeze more often (even as the surface temps reach even higher points) than the brine that is soaked into concrete that is composed of chemical that has a lower freezing point. Again,..it's all in the frequency of this cycle that takes it's toll. 
Now, there IS one element that is known to have actual chemical corrosive properties on concrete, and that is concentrations of calcium chloride. This is what is found in products such as PelaDow and/or Dowflake. This stuff eats anything it touches, basically. 
Also, essentially everything that is made up of a chloride tends to be more corrosive and/or caustic to the environment than acetates.. Which brings us to the last question...One of the largest advantages of the Landscapers Choice (calcium manganese acetate) is that it is so much safer to the turf and plants. Yes, too much can still do some damage, but it is not _nearly_ as likely as those products made with chlorides.The same goes for steel doors, as well.


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## customers_snow (Sep 15, 2002)

You better check your facts. Yes, Landscapers Choice has CMA in it. However, the amount of CMA is quite minimal. I believe that Landscapers Choice is comprised mostly of sodium. As I indicated in an earlier post, most blends are a minimum of 90% sodium. The reason for this is to keep the cost down. (Have you ever priced a bag of 100% CMA?, it is approximately $80 per bag) The problem that you have with any of the blends is that the exact percentages of chemicals that make up the products are not given because they are propietary secrets. Thus, most contractors have no idea what percentage of chemicals make up their chosen product. Sadly, they are sold on the benefits of the chemical that makes up the smallest percentage of the product!!!!

Some products may perform better than others and if you have found one that works for you at a price you are willing to pay - great. However, let's be sure we are passing along truthful information on this website.


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## MnM (Sep 23, 2005)

is the lesco ice melter pellets or flake. I hope pellets I just called them and was told it is a mag/something mix. I was just wondering if the stuff is worth it??


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## mrplowdude (Apr 16, 2005)

MnM;367281 said:


> is the lesco ice melter pellets or flake. I hope pellets I just called them and was told it is a mag/something mix. I was just wondering if the stuff is worth it??


its pellets not flakes. Its a mix of mag & potassium chloride


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

customers_snow;367116 said:


> You better check your facts. Yes, Landscapers Choice has CMA in it. However, the amount of CMA is quite minimal. I believe that Landscapers Choice is comprised mostly of sodium. As I indicated in an earlier post, most blends are a minimum of 90% sodium.
> However, let's be sure we are passing along truthful information on this website.


I dont believe that RUNNER said anything about Landscapers Choice being 100% CMA. he was just stating facts about the affects of the product (i think)


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## customers_snow (Sep 15, 2002)

In his last post, RUNNER stated that the chlorides tend to be more corrosive and/or caustic than acetates. This part is true. He then goes on to say that one of the largest advantages of Landscapers Choice (Calcium Magnesium Acetate) is that it is safer to turf & plants as is not nearly as likely to cause damage as products made with chlorides.

I will say it again. Landscapers Choice is not CMA !!!. It has a small amount of CMA in it. It is still comprised mostly of sodium. Landscapers Choice might be the slightest bit less corrosive than many of the other blends available. If you want to believe that it is less corrosive please do so. However, it is NOT what you think it is.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Im not here to argue and im sure your not, I do know most bagged products only have small amount of anything in them cos if not they would price themselves out of the market. I do know from past experience that the bagged products that are not 100 % salt seam to do a lot better on grass and landscape beds, why ....i dont know. I talked to a lady who i bought a semi of Ice Devil from and she said that it is probably 97% salt but its the company's little secret!
I do know Ice Devil is only half the product Landscapers choice is but its also only half the price.
Oh and I know that a CSP definitely know s more than me and congrates on moving the industry into a more professional place


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## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

Yep. There is no doubt that the products like Landscapers choice and others are a blend of product. the difference is, the amount of different chem they have in these blends. Like with Landscapers Choice, because it contains a certain amount of CMA, it works at lower temps..therefor takes much less at higher temps than those mixtures with more sodium. There is a product out there that is similar, called Lava Melt. this stuff is like FIE on sidewalks. It is rated for -30 temps, as opposed to LSC that is rated for 0. I don't know the percentages, but I'd love to see a report on these products. Another key reason why some of this stuff works better is its composition. The finer granules like that of LSC and Lava Melt have better coverage and absorption. you can melt ice much faster and more effectively with one ounce sprinkled finely over an area than you can with one 1 oz. granule. Absolutely NONE of this stuff is completely safe for turf or landscape stock (even though I think LSC actually words it that way on their package), but some are just _safer_ than others.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

That lava melt is top notch. I believe its the best in our market. But its $$$$$$


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## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

Runner;369987 said:


> . There is a product out there that is similar, called Lava Melt. this stuff is like FIE on sidewalks. It is rated for -30 temps, as opposed to LSC that is rated for 0. .


lol What I meant to say, is this stuff is like FIRE on sidewalks. That way, people aren't doing searches and wondering what "FIE" is. My bad! xysport


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