# WHAT is a Low Baller?



## QuadPlower

There are several versions running around plowsite. Most of the time it is used to describe a person that did a member of this site wrong.

"I was under bid by this low baller."
"This lowballer plowing for beer money. . . "
"I found out that this low baller does it for half of what I would normally charge."
"I bet the low baller doesn't have insurance or pay taxes."

In my opinion, a low baller is someone that under bids KNOWING how much the current bid is for. OR someone who bids a job low just so the current plower looses it.

Someone who doesn't know how much it really cost to do business or is just breaking into the market and bids low is not a low baller. They are just ignorant.

What is your definition of a Low Baller?


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## procut1

Your definition is the true definition of what a "lowballer" is.

Lowballing is a calculated intentional practice.

What everyone else is describing is losing a job to someone who is doing it cheaper.

I get a laugh at that one too. 100% of the time someone on here complains about losing a job it is ALWAYS PRICE.

No one EVER lost a job for not doing a good job.


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## f250man

I would consider a low baller as a guy or gal that dose not charge market price on his or her bids. New to something should not be a reason to bid it cheap if you are jumping into a business you need to do your home work and find the going rate and bid accordingly. That is my opinion.


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## ahoron

It seems a lot of people on here are HIGHBALLERS they think they can charge more for the same service. If he can do it cheaper he must not have insurance and not be paying taxes he is a low baller. If you can get the same service for less you would. You could do a lot near your house cheaper then a guy that has to drive 10-15 miles then are you a lowballer? What point does it go from good business to lowballing? If you have all your lots near each other you can do them cheaper then if you had to drive. Does that make you a low baller or a good businessman?Being new is a reason to bid lower. Who would you hire assuming the price is the same the guy you have used before or some new guy? You would hire the guy you know. Seems some people here think everyone else has the same over head they do. I would define a lowballer as someone who is doing it so cheap that they are losing money. Seems to me most of the lowballer stories here are from people who got their feeling hurt


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## DJ Contracting

A Baseball pitcher that can't throw a ball between the lower part and upper part on a strike zone.


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## Mick

I agree that it would help if there was a standard definition of "lowballer" other than someone who got a job you wanted. I've posted it before, but see what you think:

LOWBALLER - A person who knowingly and intentionally uses another's bid or estimate as a basis to form a lower, competing bid.


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## Spudgunner

My cynical answer:
"A lowballer is a person who takes business from me that I think I'm somehow entitled to." This definition would seemingly belong in Ambrose Bierce's "The Devil's Dictionary"...but I'm pretty sure it isn't in there.


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## TPC Services

the truth does hurt do'nt it.
most lowballers do not have insurance, or a clue what it takes (I.E. gas, wear tear, commercial insurace, company insurance labor, mis cost) to o the job

your comment about how someone choses you over the other guy sould be experaince. I would not have some smoo come and hack up my property if he does not have prior experiance.


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## IMAGE

QuadPlower;493961 said:


> "This lowballer plowing for beer money. . . "


I plowed out a Subway drive thru for $20 and a 6". I was there and had a plow, they had a snow drift and closed drive thru. One time thing, 3 min of work.

Does that make me a lowballer?


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## ahoron

IMAGE;496515 said:


> I plowed out a Subway drive thru for $20 and a 6". I was there and had a plow, they had a snow drift and closed drive thru. One time thing, 3 min of work.
> 
> Does that make me a lowballer?


Yes, a professional would have a 12" and a bag of chips maybe even double meat


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## QuadPlower

Does Subway have a contract with someone else? I wouldn't think so. Its like an old lady asking you to do her drive because you are doing the neighbors. If you are there, you do it for whatever. Would you sign a contract for $20 and a 6" sub? I hope not.

You would be a low baller if you did it for that knowing the last contracter did it for $20 and a 12" sub.


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## IMAGE

Yeah I just wanted to throw it out there. They were in a strip mall, and the building owner did it, so I wasnt taking someones work, I made sure to ask first I did leave some cards with the manager to give to the plaza owner though.


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## v-plower

To myself and those I plow with as well as other local friends in the industry the term "low baller" describes guys who bids less than the going rate.
For example someone who comes in at $80 per push on an account which is $100/push all day long.
I agree that it is intentional/calculated and that they probably know what the other guy was charging or bid.

We refer to the no insurance, non tax paying, ridiculously low bidding guys as "*****s". 

Image, that one time plow would not make you a low baller in my eyes just right place, right time but as mentioned earlier you should have gotten a 12", chips and a drink!


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## basher

A Lowballer is someone who buys knock-off/aftermarket parts on line then calls the local dealer wanting free help installing them.


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## PLOWIN DOUGH

*My first post*

Im a lowballer. this is my first year plowing and i feel i had to offer an advantage to get work. I got work because of my lower rates. Next year i will work on increasing my rates. I am insured and take offense to guys hating on lowballers. America's economy is formed on competative business. Alot of guys just hate to loose work and see a young gun coming up but thats life.


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## JD Dave

basher;497674 said:


> A Lowballer is someone who buys knock-off/aftermarket parts on line then calls the local dealer wanting free help installing them.


I agree. It's like when I lose a big job and then the first big snowfall they ask if I can send a loader over to help them out!


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## JD Dave

PLOWIN DOUGH;497731 said:


> Im a lowballer. this is my first year plowing and i feel i had to offer an advantage to get work. I got work because of my lower rates. Next year i will work on increasing my rates. I am insured and take offense to guys hating on lowballers. America's economy is formed on competative business. Alot of guys just hate to loose work and see a young gun coming up but thats life.


That's how I got started!


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## Spudgunner

PLOWIN DOUGH;497731 said:


> Im a lowballer. this is my first year plowing and i feel i had to offer an advantage to get work. I got work because of my lower rates. Next year i will work on increasing my rates. I am insured and take offense to guys hating on lowballers. America's economy is formed on competative business. Alot of guys just hate to loose work and see a young gun coming up but thats life.


You're a competitor...and more power to you! This is America and there is NOTHING wrong with engaging in price competition. It does put the onus on established companies to be more innovative...another good thing, IMO.


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## Mark Oomkes

f250man;494056 said:


> I would consider a low baller as a guy or gal that dose not charge market price on his or her bids. New to something should not be a reason to bid it cheap if you are jumping into a business you need to do your home work and find the going rate and bid accordingly. That is my opinion.


Define market price.

Walmart market price? Or a specialty shop market price?

Market price based on my overhead with several employees, trucks, loaders or your market price based on 1 truck, living at home with your parents? (not saying this is you, just making an example.)



v-plower;497545 said:


> To myself and those I plow with as well as other local friends in the industry the term "low baller" describes guys who bids less than the going rate.
> For example someone who comes in at $80 per push on an account which is $100/push all day long.
> I agree that it is intentional/calculated and that they probably know what the other guy was charging or bid.


See above.

Market price is as volatile as gas. If you have lower overhead, your prices can be lower. If you want to set a 'market price' that would be collusion or price fixing and would be considered illegal. There is no such thing as market price, despite how badly we would like to see it. Because we're in America, home of capitalism. If someone can do as good a job or maybe better, then the property owner is an idiot for not spending his money wisely.

It is a fine balance between charging enough to make decent money and still provide a high level of service to those who want that level of service.

So am I truly a lowballer if I know my numbers, willing lower my price and *accept a lower profit margin* because I want a job? How about if I do this to keep my employees and equipment operating?

In addition to Quad and Mick being correct (IMO) a lowballer is one who is not a legitimate business entity. No dba or not incorporated, not paying taxes, no insurance are things I would also lump into the definition of lowballer.


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## Mick

PLOWIN DOUGH;497731 said:


> Im a lowballer. this is my first year plowing and i feel i had to offer an advantage to get work. I got work because of my lower rates. Next year i will work on increasing my rates. I am insured and take offense to guys hating on lowballers. America's economy is formed on competative business. Alot of guys just hate to loose work and see a young gun coming up but thats life.


Nothing wrong with that. I don't hate seeing a young gun starting out, either. In fact, I've helped a couple around here. Just don't get upset next year when you lose your customers to the next young gun starting out by offering rates lower than you. Don't expect to keep the same customers when you try raising your rates, either. That's why they went with you in the first place - price, not service. I always tell people - When you start out, you need to decide then what you're going to base your business on. If people get to know you as "the cheap guy", you're going to have a hard time getting them to see you as "the guy who charges more than others, but does a hell of a good job".


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes;497879 said:


> Market price is as volatile as gas. If you have lower overhead, your prices can be lower..
> It is a fine balance between charging enough to make decent money and still provide a high level of service to those who want that level of service.
> 
> In addition to Quad and Mick being correct (IMO) a lowballer is one who is not a legitimate business entity. No dba or not incorporated, not paying taxes, no insurance are things I would also lump into the definition of lowballer.


If your overhead is lower why lower your prices and lowball?
Why not net more than your competition is while still charging what your competition is?

Doesn't' that make you more of a successful businessman?

If I can get a gallon of gas at a $1 why charge $1.20 for it lowballing your competition when you can get $2.95 a gal and make more of a profit?

I agree with Quad and Mick also..


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer;497902 said:


> If your overhead is lower why lower your prices and lowball?
> Why not net more than your competition is while still charging what your competition is?
> 
> Doesn't' that make you more of a successful businessman?
> 
> If I can get a gallon of gas at a $1 why charge $1.20 for it lowballing your competition when you can get $2.95 a gal and make more of a profit?
> 
> I agree with Quad and Mick also..


Notice, I said CAN be lower, didn't say they have to be. And you are absolutely correct, that does make you a more successful businessperson. (That's me being PC)


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## QuadPlower

New guy starting out. Sits down and does all the math and figures he needs $20 per drive and he needs 20 drives to make a living. Lets even say he has ins and pays taxes.

He goes to the first drive that calls and he tells them the amount he figures he needs. The customer says, "Well last year I paid $15." New plow guy says, "Okay, I can do it for that."

Is the new plow guy a Low Baller?

He goes to the next customers house. He realizes that he has to make up his $5 loss. So he tells the customer $25. Customer doesn't complain. 

Is new plow guy shafting this customer?


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## BREAULT69

Lowballer's in my neck of the woods are usually local farmers, the well off one's that have all purchased skid loaders in the last five years or so. They don't have alot going on in the winter and have this $30K toy sitting around so they all load up and come to town. I highly doubt any of them have insurance for commercial snow plowing or even realize they need it. They have no idea what to charge because they are not professional snow removal contractor's. They are just bored and like an excuse to fire up their cool toy. I really don't think they are intentionally trying to hurt those of us that are paying $2500.00 a year for insurance, they just don't know better and think they're being a "good ol' boy" and helping out a buisness by plowing their lot for what amounts to beer money ( several of them drink it while plowing). A couple weeks ago one of them tagged a parked car a couple blocks from where I was plowing and took off. The wonder cops we have stopped me the next day and grilled my ass trying to get me to say I did it because there was yellow paint on the car. Luckily several other "legitimate" plower's were close by me at the time and gave statements that I was never even close to where the car was. Things will catch up to them someday and somebody will lose a farm, and we won't see the good ol' boy crew anymore. Lowballers are unprofessional and that hurts the profession as much as the low (extremely low) price they charge. When one of these guys runs over somebody when they are drinking, everybody will assume we are all that way. That'll be a nice black eye.


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## BREAULT69

I better add that I am a farmer too. I'm not just ranting, it's just how it is here.


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## v-plower

Mark Oomkes;497879 said:


> Define market price.
> 
> Walmart market price? Or a specialty shop market price?
> 
> Market price based on my overhead with several employees, trucks, loaders or your market price based on 1 truck, living at home with your parents? (not saying this is you, just making an example.)
> 
> See above.
> 
> Market price is as volatile as gas. If you have lower overhead, your prices can be lower. If you want to set a 'market price' that would be collusion or price fixing and would be considered illegal. There is no such thing as market price, despite how badly we would like to see it. Because we're in America, home of capitalism. If someone can do as good a job or maybe better, then the property owner is an idiot for not spending his money wisely.
> 
> It is a fine balance between charging enough to make decent money and still provide a high level of service to those who want that level of service.
> 
> So am I truly a lowballer if I know my numbers, willing lower my price and *accept a lower profit margin* because I want a job? How about if I do this to keep my employees and equipment operating?
> 
> In addition to Quad and Mick being correct (IMO) a lowballer is one who is not a legitimate business entity. No dba or not incorporated, not paying taxes, no insurance are things I would also lump into the definition of lowballer.


I didn't say anything about "market price" I mentioned the "going rate".
For instance, in our area the going rate for say a 20 yard dumpster may be $395. There may be guys slightly higher or lower but not significantly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with collusion unless a bunch of dumpster companies in our area got together and decided to charge no less than $395.

I think we have all "lowballed" at some point. In fact I low balled a quote I gave to a college in R.I. recently for 9 gazebos. I went low because it is Winter and I really wanted my gazebos on the campus (it is where my wife went to college). I have insurance. I pay taxes (boat loads of taxes and insurance!).

We refer to those without taxes/insurance as w h o r e s as I mentioned earlier.

BTW, someone lowballed a little better and ended up getting the sale. Damn lowballer!


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## basher

A Lowballer is someone who complains about free help.


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## mnormington

Mark Oomkes;497879 said:
 

> Market price is as volatile as gas. If you have lower overhead, your prices can be lower. If you want to set a 'market price' that would be collusion or price fixing and would be considered illegal. There is no such thing as market price, despite how badly we would like to see it.


Really? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Market price (prevailing wage) for a union electrician around these parts is around $35 / hr. It's not illegal, either. Same goes for all the other trades.


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## Mark Oomkes

mnormington;501192 said:


> Really? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Market price (prevailing wage) for a union electrician around these parts is around $35 / hr. It's not illegal, either. Same goes for all the other trades.


That isn't market price, that's the price of labor. Market price is what the contractor charges per hour for the work. Big difference. That's not even apples and oranges, that's apples and potatoes.


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## Bowtytek

I have been reading the posts on this site for about six monthes now and when I some one complaining about a lowballer, I feel like it a shot toward me. I have been plowing for about 4 years now and this is the first year I don't have to do it around a full time job. I don't have a dba or incorporated as I don't know the first thing about running a business. I pay for all my expenses out of my pocket during the summer and the big repairs in the winter. The plowing pays for the gas and if something breaks on the truck. I have set a minimum price as what I need just to show up. I charge per storm as that is what people up here are accustom to. All of my customers have called me and I havn't solicisated for a one. I give my price and the customer can take it or leave it. I don't know what others in the area are charging and customers from 4 years ago have had rates go up due to gas. I am fully insured, just not rated for commercial, that's the risk I take. I used to plow just to keep gas in the truck to get to and from work and plow myself and both mom's yard for nothing out of my pocket during the storm and that has worked. This year I can buy groceries the week of the storm which helps out the house financies. I am a one man/truck show (sometimes my younger son goes to help and I take him for supper...gotta pay the help). I am always looking for more customers especially now but don't want so much my current customers have to lose the personal touches they have come to expect. I don't look to steal customers from other guys, but if they want my services i oblige. I don't consider myself a lowballer, but like I said listening to the posts I feel as I fall in your discription which isn't a fair generalition. Like was said before, you call it lowballing, others call it competion. You buy your equipment from the place with the less price, are they lowballers in their industry? And it doesn't bother you that you bought it there because then you are talking up the great deal you. That "lowballers" customer is doing the same thing. I think the ones complaining about the lowballers are pissed they lost a customer and want to blame it on someone. Instead they should look at it as a learning experience so it they don't lose another customer. And as is the case in this area there isn't a lot of money and people are pinching every penny and maybe it wasn't you, just happened to find me that was doing a good job for a friend of theirs at a decent price that we agreed on that fit their budget. Sorry this post is so long, just wanted to vent on this issue. Just because I may charge less, doesn't make me a scumbag lowballer (as I have seen called, or worse). I know what I want to make and I have how I run my business based on philosophies I have and also know that plowing snow isn't the quick way to be rich. It's a lot of work, it's fun, a chance to show my kids what hard work and being fair gets you in life, and if I make a few bucks at the same time so be it.


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## Jbowe

*Low Ballers*

I don't think anyone faults someone that can do a job for a lower price as long as hes playing on the same ball field. I think everyone here has taken a job low so they could get thier foot in the door with some company or even a private client. The problem as I see it is not getting your foot in the door. It's those guys who go out and buy junk trucks with old worn out plows for 500.00 dollars then going out and seeing whos plowing what and where then going in and undercutting a legitimate plow out fit by half or more. Here in the Valley where I live in Alaska it happens all the time. Every fall you can see ads for old trucks with old western plows for 500.00. None of them would pass the im inspection in Anchorage so they end up out here where you don't need one and these guys, mostly unemployed or on welfare will drive around during snows and do 60.00 drives for 20.00. Those are the ones I consider low ballers and they are the ones taking food off my and my guys dinner tables. I will not get one unstuck even if they are in the middle of no where which happens all the time here. The most I will do is call them a wrecker and believe me they are looking at a 200.00 bill to get unstuck. I figure that is all I am responsible for and all I will do.


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## John Mac

A low baller to me is someone who takes on work at a price that makes it hard if not impossible for him to do what he was contracted for. Gives plowing in general a bad reputation and makes it harder to charge what the job is worth because the customer assumes that they are going get bad service anyways just like the guy before that didn't charge enough, so why pay more if the customer assumes he won't get his moneys worth.


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## ahoron

Jbowe;501454 said:


> Every fall you can see ads for old trucks with old western plows for 500.00.
> 
> Do your customers care if you have a $500 truck or a $50,000 truck? Mine don't,they just want the snow moved and don't care how it's done. Also western makes darn good plows


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## Jbowe

*Ahoron*

I have a western V Plow on my 3/4 ton. However its not rusted through nor has it been welded back together half a dozen times. That was not the point that I was making. I know you guys don't get the snow we do so maybe its not as important to you as it is to us here. But when I get a call in the middle of a storm like last week and tell the customer my minimum, drive 20 miles then get told that I am to high they always get someone for 20 bucks that is a bit much. That happens all the time here and I will tell you this. If your driveing a 50k truck with 5k of plow on the front and you are chargeing 20 dollars a drive no matter how small you need to have your head examined. You can't even pay for your gas today at that rate. Mind you, the low ballers or scabs or whatever you choose to call them don't care about that. They are more concerned with beer money tonight at the local pub and playing darts. Thats why the buy crap that has no business even being on the road to begin with, run around with their drinking buddy in the truck with them, and do drives for 20 dollars, Who likes to drink alone.


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## fordzilla1155

Just remember where WE all came from. Shoveling a walk when we were 12 for 2 bucks, and out first plow truck. I am not a weeds and seeds man, but does this occur in grass cutting?


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## mnormington

Mark Oomkes;501233 said:


> That isn't market price, that's the price of labor. Market price is what the contractor charges per hour for the work. Big difference. That's not even apples and oranges, that's apples and potatoes.


You can call it what you want but what it is is market price. Also, I think it would be easier to compare apples to potatoes than apples to oranges.


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## B&B

basher;501179 said:


> A Lowballer is someone who complains about free help.


......


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## Jbowe

*Remeber where we came from*



fordzilla1155;502148 said:


> Just remember where WE all came from. Shoveling a walk when we were 12 for 2 bucks, and out first plow truck. I am not a weeds and seeds man, but does this occur in grass cutting?


Well I am 59 now so that would be 47 years ago. Two dollars them would be what 40 today maybe more since back then two dollars had a lot more buying power then today. So even useing that as a remember when 40 for an average drive would be reasonable. lol


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## NEH

If a guy can do the job that the customer needs at a certain price, then I don't see the problem. If they're not charging enough, they won't be around long. If they don't or can't do a good job, then the customer has the option to hire someone else. If it's just that their overhead is lower and you're losing business to them, maybe you're overcharging?

Equipment purchases - how much, what, when - are business decisions. I see an awful lot of new expensive equipment listed in the sigs here - if someone uses older (paid for!) equipment and has made the decision that they'll pay more for maintenance rather than make big monthly payments, that's also a business decision. It's not their responsibility to charge enough to make sure everyone gets enough business to pay for new equipment. 

They guy who has equipment (or employees) sitting idle may bid a job for cost just to keep them moving. Nothing wrong with that, that's reality - you got to deal with it.

If a customer wants to hire someone who has no insurance, or doesn't bother to ask if they have insurance, that's their decision. Insurance addresses risk - how much insurance you want, i.e. how much risk you want to take, be you customer or businessman, from lots to none, is simply another business decision. 

If they're not meeting legal requirements for inspections/insurance/etc., that's another matter.

Bottom line is that you need to make your customer's feel that they're getting their money's worth, regardless of what you charge.


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## Jbowe

*Low Ballers*

This whole post sounds like you guys are trying to defend low ballers as legitimate competition. I have no problem competeing with companies that are legit but its impossible to compete when someone who is out there trying to make beer money as we call it. We have insurance laws in place for a reason and those of us that abide by those laws and make sure we are properly covered cannot compete with those who could care less about those law. Plowing is no different then manufactureing and we know what has happened to that in this country with most of it being sent to third world countries. Most see no problem complaining about that. I see the low ballers as no different. I do not use new trucks. Mine are all mid to late 90's Dodges but they are well maintained, look new or close to it and will pass any IM they go through. The low ballers here in the Valley are little more then rust on wheels for the most part that I wouldn't pay a dollar for and those are what hurt us all.


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## ahoron

In my area the "lowballers" drive $50,000 trucks not the $500 beaters. The term is often used to describe anyone that gives a better price.I think some believe they can charge whatever they want, show up whenever they want, and do the job how ever they want and when the customer gets upset and hires someone new they just hired a lowballer and the only reason is price not the crappy service you have given them. I have never lost a job because I did a great job. They have an old truck that wouldn't pass inspection? they have a new truck they have to pay for? they don't have insurance?They don't have enough insurance? It's called business someone will always be able to do it cheaper and faster. I am in no way trying to defend lowballers I'm just saying that the term is used often when it's not the case. I know guys that started with a shovel then a blower then an old beater truck. That is how a business grows you make money and invest into the business.


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## big acres

Be it lawn or snow, a lowballer is someone who comes is way below market rate. Whether it is a calculated move, or just plain ignorance doesn't make a difference. It throws the bid curve way out of whack, and makes the rest of us look like were trying to rip people off.

What I hate the most is sitting down with a property manager, as I did today, and being told that my bid of a little over $3k is in a pile of bids from a few other semi-reputable and sizable companies coming in at $2200-2500. The manager cannot get over the number, but goes onto talk about how the current vendor splices hairs on snow depth, opting to charge for a push that is a tenth of an inch below the trigger, hits them for $400 inextra billable severy snowfall, charges $170 per ton for salt AND a truck hour, and if it rains on their mowing day -see ya' next week, hope it doesn't rain then too.

We have refused to play this game in the past, and I would hate to be their sales rep when the invoices get mailed, but it seems to be the way it is going around here. Hoard properties and nickel and dime for anything and everything, then replace 30% of your customers every year. Unfortunately, many managers don't know the game and rarely crunch real numbers. Looking at the other bids, knowing the other companies, and breaking down the math, I can tell you they are not making a profit without playing games -so it is calculated lowballing. Me, I prefer to be upfront and service the crap out of the account to maintain our 95% customer retention rate.


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## QuadPlower

Jbowe;502466 said:


> This whole post sounds like you guys are trying to defend low ballers as legitimate competition. I have no problem competeing with companies that are legit but its impossible to compete when someone who is out there trying to make beer money as we call it.


There's a difference between low ballers and legitimate competition. Someone with low over head (paid for equipment) and plows for "beer money" (less than the going rate) is not a Low Baller.

If you loose a bid to that kind of plower, then the customer was just looking for the lowest price and you probably don't want them anyway.

BUT if the same plower approaches a customer or business and says, "What you paying that guy?" and the customer tells them and they say, "Shoot. I can do it for half that." And the customer goes with him. That's a Low Baller. But again, you probably don't want that customer because they are only looking for a low rate.

On the other hand, if you loose your business to that guy, its your fault, if you are plowing without a contract that states there is a buyout cost for dropping you.

A lot of guys on here use the term generally to describe a person that now has a contract that they used to have. It's just easier to say, "that low baller took my contract." Then to say, "I feel asleep and didn't plow my customers until a day later and lost my contract." (I'm not saying anyone on here has ever feel asleep and not plowed their customers until the next day. Just an example)


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## JD Dave

What i'd like to know, is how you guys know everyone's insurance situation?


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## mnormington

JD Dave;503419 said:


> What i'd like to know, is how you guys know everyone's insurance situation?


They know EVERYTHING. That's why they are better than "lowballers."


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## mnormington

QuadPlower;503403 said:


> BUT if the same plower approaches a customer or business and says, "What you paying that guy?" and the customer tells them and they say, "Shoot. I can do it for half that." And the customer goes with him. That's a Low Baller.


That's not a lowballer - that's a complete IDIOT! I guess that's the bottom line, though, now isn't it? It's easy for me to compete against idiots. I do a better job than they do.


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## Jbowe

*Low ballers*

I know what everyone is saying and I also know my market just as the majority of you know yours. Here in the Vally where I live in Alaska we probably have more low ballers becuase of our situation here then in most places in the lower 48. Whenever it snows here and were out you can tell the difference in the companies visually. Its easy to spot those who are legit and those that are not. A few weeks ago I was called to come bid a job. When I arrived there was two other plow trucks there talking to this owner. I sat on the road until they left then went in to talk to the owner. This was a very large drive, 200' and probably half an acre to be plowed. Large house and two seperate two car carages. Only one place to stack the snow so it was a lot of work. I figured at least an hr each time I sent a truck so I quoted 120.00. My going Hr rate to plow. To make it worse it was about 10 miles out of Wasilla. So even at 120 I was giving him a break. This guy looks at me and laughs. The guy before me had quoted him 35.00. Now I don't know about you but to me thats a low baller and it happens all the time around here. By the way the guy was driving a rust bucket probably 82 dodge pickup with cut wood in back. So that alone tells me he lives in a cabin somewhere around here and has wood burning stove and probaly no running water. You can laugh at this but we still have lots of that here. lol


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## Mick

What's wrong with having a wood burning stove? Mine is actually my backup furnace and is being used a lot the last couple years in my house which just appraised at $210,000. And my '05 Silverado with less than 10,000 miles does have cut wood in the bed.


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## Jbowe

*Mick*

Thats not the point I was makeing and I'll bet you have running hot and cold water. lol


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## Jbowe

*Mick*

That was not the point I was makeing. lol Plus I will bet even money you have hot and cold running water.


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## Mick

No problem, Jbowe. I knew what you meant. I should have put a smiley on my post - like . (contents dependent on age and personal preference).


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## JD Dave

What is a lowballer? It's the guy at the party, that thinks it's funny to whack you in the [email protected]# when your not looking!!


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## mnormington

big acres;503151 said:


> Me, I prefer to be upfront and service the crap out of the account to maintain our 95% customer retention rate.


Bingo!! THAT is the name of the game.


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## gotsnow?

Well I could be a lower baller, I paid cash for my truck, my plow and my snow shovel too.  I can do the job for less then others because my overhead is less than big companies in my area. If a possible customer voluntarily tells me what they're paying their current plower and I know I can do it for 5-10 bucks less, and still make a profit as well as take care of my expences, I'll do it. payup Does that make me a low baller? I just recently found out I'm charging the same per hour as a cousin of mine who is a single-operator plower, therefore I must not be low balling.... I'm the same as one of my competitors.


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## basher

Jbowe;503450 said:


> By the way the guy was driving a rust bucket probably 82 dodge pickup with cut wood in back. So that alone tells me he lives in a cabin somewhere around here and has wood burning stove and probaly no running water. You can laugh at this but we still have lots of that here. lol


I too heat with Wood, and My 05 Ram has wood in the back when there's not a spreader in it, sold the 97 I kept for that purpose until the insurance and tags got ridiculous. Love being able to afford keeping the house warm enough to walk around in my underwear..We do have hot an cold running water, and a indoor John. I call it "my cabin in the woods" I'd post a aerial PIC ( nice shot of your place MIck) put you cann't see the house from above. Been here 20 years, I avoid having it appraised because I don't want the taxes to go up.


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## Indy

I think service is the key also, I think a customer will switch just as fast for poor work as they will high price, if you leave that door open and some body gets in...call'em what you want, I am pretty sure every body here would pick up a spot by doing it better at the same or lower price then the last guy if it fits your route and stile. MHO ussmileyflag


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## ct chap

I understand loosing an account for price or service but here's a practice that's really low. Residential driveway, not a big account; the home owners new leaf guy just showed up before me and did it, even after he was told not to. Maybe he likes to work for free. Who would pay him for work they didn't want him to do? The account is still mine but this guy qualifies as really low.


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## SnoFarmer

JD Dave;504133 said:


> What is a lowballer? It's the guy at the party, that thinks it's funny to whack you in the [email protected]# when your not looking!!


 What Kind of party games are you playing?

:waving:


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## SnoFarmer

gotsnow?;524812 said:


> Well I could be a lower baller, I paid cash for my truck, my plow and my snow shovel too.  I can do the job for less then others because my overhead is less than big companies in my area. If a possible customer voluntarily tells me what they're paying their current plower and I know I can do it for 5-10 bucks less, and still make a profit as well as take care of my expences, I'll do it. payup Does that make me a low baller? I just recently found out I'm charging the same per hour as a cousin of mine who is a single-operator plower, therefore I must not be low balling.... I'm the same as one of my competitors.


Both of you could be lowballers lol...

Just a couple of thoughts......

If you plow a drive for $10 less than the last guy.. now the next guy comes along and does it for $5 bucks less than you..
How can the price to plow the drive Keep going down?

Driving the price of plowing down helps no one.

Why go out and underbid just to get drives when you can charge the same or more and get drives that you can make a living off of?

Why cut your profits your self?
Why not charge the going rate and make more than your competition?

I plow to make money not to just provide a service..


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## JD Dave

SnoFarmer;525891 said:


> What Kind of party games are you playing?
> 
> :waving:


LOL. I have friends that like to do this when drunk, they think their in high school still!


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## SnoFarmer

JD Dave;525904 said:


> LOL. I have friends that like to do this when drunk, they think their in high school still!


I hope they wake up laiying on the floor:crying: after they do it...


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## Mick

You'll find the price cutting going on in every industry - and to the detriment of everybody. One I'm involved with is so bad that the competition is actually doing the equivalent of paying the homeowner to plow his driveway.


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## ahoron

SnoFarmer;525903 said:


> Why go out and underbid just to get drives when you can charge the same or more and get drives that you can make a living off of?
> ..


If you can have all your jobs next door to each other you would make more money than if you drove all over to the jobs. noone I know is losing money plowing.even the guy charging $10 a drive


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## gotsnow?

Ahoron, I actually do charge $10/drive for four of my residential driveways..... How can I possibly make money you ask?? Well, like you said, they're all next door to each other. They are on a private lake lane which I also plow (and the private lane is where I make the big bucks). Each drive takes me, maybe, 2 minutes. So I am deff. making money even at $10 a pop, because I'm literally RIGHT THERE. 

SNOfarmer, I guess I'll have to start calling around to the other local snow plowing companies in my area to see what their going rate is...


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## SnoFarmer

gotsnow?;528167 said:


> Ahoron, I actually do charge $10/drive for four of my residential driveways..... How can I possibly make money you ask?? Well, like you said, they're all next door to each other. They are on a private lake lane which I also plow (and the private lane is where I make the big bucks). Each drive takes me, maybe, 2 minutes. So I am deff. making money even at $10 a pop, because I'm literally RIGHT THERE.
> 
> SNOfarmer, I guess I'll have to start calling around to the other local snow plowing companies in my area to see what their going rate is...


Your clients are getting a very good deal.
You should see the savings not the home owner.

Start to think like a businessman.
Your leaving a lot of money on the tabel
Would the plummer, electrician etc etc give you a deal just because you lived close to there last job?

Have a minim price.
I don't move for less than $30

How much would you charge if they were not right next to each other?


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## gotsnow?

I understand they're getting an amazing savings, but one of my selling points to these customers (who as far as I know did not have snow removal service before I started plowing this lake lane) was I could give them a discounted rate (my minimum is also $30/push) since I would be right there plowing the lake lane. The customers were also made aware at this price their drives would be plowed on my lake lane's trigger or greater. Let me make myself clear also, I solicated business from other houses on this lake lane, not all of them wanted me to plow for them, they either had a snow removal company hired (and must have been happy w/ his or her work/price) or were happy to plow it by hand/snow blower. Also, w/ a low rate this season I can easily increase my rate next season and shouldn't hear much static.


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## creativedesigns

JD Dave;504133 said:


> What is a lowballer? It's the guy at the party, that thinks it's funny to whack you in the [email protected]# when your not looking!!


A lowballer is a person that works for below profit making wages; therefore pretty much working for free & trying to run a small business operation that goes bankrupt in 2 years


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## ducatirider944

Plowing is an uneducated labor service industry. Any uneducated labor service industry is going to have lowballers how ever you want to define them. Note: by uneducated service industry I'm saying you don't have to have a degree or be licensed to provide this service. You didn't even have to graduate from high school.

Wither it's plowing, mowing, roofing, siding, moving dirt, or any other jobs that have no qualifications to practice you will have to deal with this. I am a general contractor and in my state all you have to do is give the state $25 for a 2 year registration. No pre-requests. I know in other states are different. All of these jobs you need just 3 things. A vehicle to get to customers place, a phone so they can get a hold of you (preferably a mobile), and whatever pieces of equipment you need to perform said job. IE: snowplow, lawnmower, roofing tools, siding tools, skid loader. Farmers are exempt because the global market sets their prices and there is to big of an investment price to start out.

Lowballer 1

With this being said, you will have to compete with Tom, Dick, and Sally (I'm being PC) that is working at the local Wal-mart for $7.00 an hour if they work at all and don't collect welfare. So if they can go out and make $20 an hour they think they have made it big time. Live with it, your going to have to unless you want to change jobs. These guys will be here until the gov't jumps on board with some type of standard that you have to meet and you have to have a plowing license, proof of insurance including general liability that any cop can check at anytime you’re out plowing

Lowballer 2

This is the guy that does have insurance, claims income, pays taxes, goes out and try’s to make a go of it. This guy you really don't have to worry about. One of two things will happen. He will go out of business after a year or two because he won't be able to make enough profit or his rates will go up and be closer to your rates.

The real problem here is the economy is going in the tank and bound to get worse before it gets better. Another note before people start attacking what I have posted or jumping to conclusions. I did graduate high school and went to college for a few years but didn't gradate. I don't have a degree hanging on my wall nor do I think you have to have one to be smart. Most of the people on here probably have a successful business and earned it. My daddy didn't give me what I have. I busted my a** to get where I am today. As did a lot of you as well. Finding dedication and your niche in the market, maybe your a little cheaper than the next guy or you provide better service is how you will find success. If you get every job you bid your leaving a lot of profit on the table. Ok, bash away!


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## QuadPlower

Do you like abuse? I can blurt out obscene remarks about you and your mother OR I could tell you that what you said makes sense and was well thought out.

Since you asked for it. uneducated labor service industry is not very PC when you state later that you added Sally to be (I'm being PC) Most service industry related occupations are uneducated labor. I, you and most of the guys on here, are business owners or employees. I will admit that pushing snow from one place to another is not rocket science, but you can't be stupid either.

Just because you push snow for less than everyone else does not make you a low baller. It makes you ignorant. When I first started I had no idea what others were making. (I still don’t know for sure.) So I was ignorant and bid jobs at what I Thought was a bunch of money.

Low Baller: A person or business that offers to do work for less than another person or business with the main intent of taking that work away from said person or business.


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## Mark Oomkes

QuadPlower;529455 said:


> Just because you push snow for less than everyone else does not make you a low baller. It makes you ignorant. When I first started I had no idea what others were making. (I still don't know for sure.) So I was ignorant and bid jobs at what I Thought was a bunch of money.


Oh my goodness, QuadPlower, I can't believe it, you just called someone ignorant. Shame on you. Or are you just trying to get your point across? lolol

No it doesn't make them ignorant, not if they're still making money at it. It makes them a capitalist because they've found a way to perform the same service more efficiently or by lowering their overhead. That's what America was built on.



QuadPlower;529455 said:


> Low Baller: A person or business that offers to do work for less than another person or business with the main intent of taking that work away from said person or business.


Exactly. Sort of. But not necessarily. See above about capitalism, not the name calling.


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes;529458 said:


> No it doesn't make them ignorant, not if they're still making money at it. It makes them a capitalist because they've found a way to perform the same service more efficiently or by lowering their overhead. That's what America was built on.
> .


Turn that around.....

If the guy with the low over head that provides same service more efficiently would charge the going rate in his area he would make more money.
Thus being more successful.
That's the capitalist way.

Passing on the savings to the customer is a nice thing to do but why?
I'm in business to make money not to give it back to my customers when I become more proficient or my overhead has gone down..


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer;529471 said:


> Turn that around.....
> 
> If the guy with the low over head that provides same service more efficiently would charge the going rate in his area he would make more money.
> Thus being more successful.
> That's the capitalist way.


Actually, we're both right.


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes;529474 said:


> Actually, we're both right.


I know,
But these guys seam to loose site of the fact that they are in business to make money.
Well I am anyway...

If I had 0 overhead I would not lower my rates.


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## QuadPlower

From Wikipedia: the free encyclopedia 
Ignorance is the condition of being uninformed or uneducated, lacking knowledge or information.

If you don't know the going rate for snow plowing then you are lacking information. If you don't know how much you have to make in order to keep your business in operation for more than 2 years, then you are ignorant.

I was not using it to be negative to anyone and I called myself ignorant.

A low baller would not be ignorant (to price anyway). A low baller KNOWS what the other person is doing the job for and intentionally under- bids.


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## Mark Oomkes

SnoFarmer;529480 said:


> Well I am anyway...


You mean with all that snow you're getting?


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## SnoFarmer

Mark Oomkes;529483 said:


> You mean with all that snow you're getting?


funny guy......

...


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## tjlands

SnoFarmer;529471 said:


> Turn that around.....
> 
> Passing on the savings to the customer is a nice thing to do but why?
> I'm in business to make money not to give it back to my customers when I become more proficient or my overhead has gone down..


Could not say it better!

Low ballers, who cares. Move on. If they worry you then maybe you should change your business practices or your business. *****ing and moaning will not help..


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## L.I.Mike

My .02, A lowballer is someone who plows a 100 dollar lot for 20 dollars, no insurance and beater equipment. They will be in every industry.
I have invested in my equipment and spend money to make myself more efficient and make more money. I put plow wings on and have picked up 2 more accounts because I have more time. Time = $.
I have lost 1 account to a lowballer and did not plow the account when the guy never showed up.
My firm belief (call me naive) is that if you service the account they will not want to leave. 
If they do, see ya. I have no problem with people starting a business but make sure you have a level playing field when you do.
But, There are many people who think cheap is good.


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## Sno4U

PLOWIN DOUGH;497731 said:


> Im a lowballer. this is my first year plowing and i feel i had to offer an advantage to get work. I got work because of my lower rates. Next year i will work on increasing my rates. I am insured and take offense to guys hating on lowballers. America's economy is formed on competative business. Alot of guys just hate to loose work and see a young gun coming up but thats life.


By your own definition you are NOT what I would consider a lowballer.
Notice how you stated "competitive business".
I'm probably misunderstanding this but, competitive is when the prices/service are of a comparable nature, in other words there is a competition.
But when the price is so far out of market range that the customer decides"hands down" that he wants to try the new guy b/c he is sooo much cheaper then thats NOT competitive.
So do you bid stuff so far under that any responsible property mngr. would question work quality?
I hope not.
I too hate lowballers b/c every year while costs keep going up up & up ya get a bunch of new/lowballers driving the price of services down,down & down!


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