# Snow plowing driver fatigue



## RogerMcCoy (Feb 17, 2004)

Greetings:
Roger McCoy here from WBNS-TV in Columbus. I'm researching a report about driver fatigue for snow plow drivers in this area. Many of the state and local snow plow drivers will work 12-16 hour shifts for days/nights at a time when we get a big storm.
We just had several city plow operators who were working 10 straight days averaging 10 hours a day or more. 
What impact does this have, if any, on driver fatigue? What are the trade-offs? What's safe and reasonable in your minds? Would appreciate your feedback.
Thanks,
Roger


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## The Boss (Oct 22, 2003)

Even though I'm not from your area, I'll respond anyhow. The longest I ever plowed without any sleep was 42 hours straight. It takes alot to stay awake for that long. Plus getting cramped up from sitting in the truck is a big factor also. Even with all the times of getting out to stretch, eat dinner, bathroom breaks, etc., it still takes it's toll. But that's part of plowing snow. You take the good with the bad. The outcome in the end is well worth the lack of sleep and fatigue.:waving:


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## GripTruk (Dec 1, 2003)

I haven't really had any marathons like the boss, but I do have a few accounts that are a 1/2 hour or so apart, and that drive can be rough. When I'm plowing I'm fine, but that travel time is very boring and monotonous, and sometimes I catch myself dozing and have to pull over.
I think sometimes when you get tired you become more likely to make mistakes or get sloppy and careless or lazy, and that's when accidents happen.
Sometimes it's tough to admit that your spent, and take a break, but it is much better than getting in an accident.

-Jer


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## Bolts Indus. (Dec 22, 2003)

Dicussing this topic can bring no good results for plow drivers. I have learned that what I say today comes back to haunt me tomorrow. FOOD FOR THOUGHT. Perhaps the moderator will see it my way.


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## RogerMcCoy (Feb 17, 2004)

Thanks for the feedback... Since you're the ones plowing the snow I wanted to get your professional opinions. Keep it coming!
Regards,
Roger


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## dfor (Dec 23, 1999)

> _Originally posted by Bolts Indus. _
> *Dicussing this topic can bring no good results for plow drivers. I have learned that what I say today comes back to haunt me tomorrow. FOOD FOR THOUGHT. Perhaps the moderator will see it my way. *


I totally agree. Next thing you know the gov't will have us keeping a log in our pick-ups when we are plowing. I don't think so.


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## 04superduty (Jan 9, 2004)

If any of you plowers out there have seen the way the news media will turn a story around you should not reply. By replying you will give him ammo for a upcoming story. The story wont be, "The people that plow in a storm and how hard they work." It will be more like "At times plow operators will stay up for 36 hrs straight and be a danger to society so we need more stringent laws to govern them." These laws will not allow them to work as much, so less $$, and will cost them $$ for the laws to be enacted. Just because he is acting like a friend doesn't mean a thing. So be warned, like Bolts said, be careful on what you say.


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## Gadget (Nov 22, 2003)

No good ever comes from these types of inquiries - and no investigative reporter ever tells you the real reason for the report - just surprises you when it is shown

BEWARE !!!


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

I never plow for more than 8 hours in a day. I take a quick 15 minute break every few hours and my 1/2 hour lunch so that helps a bit fiting any fatigue. Also getting a good solid 8 hours sleep the night before helps a bunch.  

The bottom line though is like anything there are responsible contractors that know when to say when and take naps or quick walks around the truck and those that give the rest of us a bad name by cutting corners any way possible. When I start to get fatigued I will start with the coffee and then move on to getting out of the truck for a few minutes to move around or get a bite to eat and then when I still cant maintain my alertness I will catch a quick nap or crash out in bed. Plowing when heavily fatigued is not a smart move for me since I have already high insurance that's required to plow and I don't want to do anything to give them a reason to raise it, I don't want to hurt myself or others, it compromises the high level of service that I strive to give to my customers. It annoys me to see any knee-jerk reaction to a situation that will only effect the people that are law abiding and doing the right thing to begin with. JMO


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## RamesesSnow23 (Jan 4, 2004)

> > GADGET No good ever comes from these types of inquiries - and no investigative reporter ever tells you the real reason for the report - just surprises you when it is shown


VERY true but the problem is he could search the site and find out what people don't tell him


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

If you want the real story of what it is like to be a snow plow operator, find one to ride along with. I don't mean for a couple of hours but a full shift. Snow for us comes only on average 7 times a year, so you got to get when it comes. 40 hour plow sessions for me are not uncommon. Yes, it's difficult. I usually don't have a problem staying awake, but I am totally drained mentally and physically after 40+ hours of plowing. It will usually take me 3-4 days to recover. If I had the luxury of only working 10 hours shifts and then resting it would probably be a piece of cake. Plowing streets for the city or state is probably much different than plowing commercial or residential properties. I'm sure a local snow removal contractor from this site would be glad to take you for a 40+ hour ride. Get the real story from the inside.


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## thundercat99 (Dec 15, 2003)

plowing is a srevice industry when the snow falls contractors must be able to complete the tasks that they are suppose to do, regardless of the time it takes them do do it. A good contractor will try to keep safe working conditions for his crews but in a heavy snowfall long ours maybe recquired. Alot of us might have a backup list of people to relive the current employee in a long storm.. We appreciate your intrest in are field, we just are concerened about the implications of your reporting.


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## jmassi (Nov 11, 2003)

Call me crazy but I thought this site was for professional snowplowers, not news reporters....


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## RogerMcCoy (Feb 17, 2004)

Guys:
I understand the mistrust some of you have expressed. I value your professional comments and I figured this would be the place to get honest feedback. 
If you want to see some of my reporting try this web site: http://www.wbns10tv.com/news/10investigates/

Regards,
Roger


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## CamLand (Mar 12, 2003)

hey Roger,i remeber you when you were a reporter in Detroit,i think your best bet would to ride along with a county rig,they drive 8-16 hour shifts.depending of course on the size of the storm...


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## crashz (Jan 12, 2004)

Mr. McCoy,

There are a few things that you need to know here. This is coming from a former plow driver, so I have a good knowledge of what the business entails and also what the average person perceives. The professionals plowing our roads and parking lots have a lot at stake each time their plows hit the pavement. They pay huge insurance premiums, and invest large amounts of time and money into their equipment. Storms are few and sometimes far between, which means that each driver must be prepared to work at a moments notice, sometimes ruling out a 40hr/week job. These people depend on the weather and their equipment and cannot afford mistakes. 

Regardless of how many hours worked, the risk is always high for plow drivers, or for any driver that spends a lot of time on the road. Plow drivers though, have a skill that the average person does not. The vehicle is his tool, much like a computer to a programmer, or a paint brush to an artist. He is in much better control and knows the limits of his equipment better that the average person. 

Also look at their personalities. Most guys here are small business owners who demand nothing less than perfection. Their equipment is in top shape, they take pride in their services, and have a customer base that returns each year. 

As was suggested, sit with a driver or two for a few hours. You'll soon realize that the safest drivers on the road have a plow on the front of their trucks!


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## 04superduty (Jan 9, 2004)

I read some of the stories for your site roger and still don't trust you. You are a member of the elite misinformation news media. As some of the members have pointed out, this is a site for people that plow. Unless they fit a plow on your news van, you shouldn't be poking around for a story that will just make us look bad. Call the local DOT office and arrange a ride along with them. See what it is like to plow for 12 hrs dealing with all the morons on the road. Mount some cameras in the truck so you can show your viewers what it is like. My resentment comes for watch the news when they blow up a little story into something huge because there is nothing else to report about. In the process they can ruin peoples lives and don't give a damn if they do. If your intentions are good, i hope you get a good story but i guess we wont know until you are finished.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

Mr. McCoy, what about news reporter fatigue? When work a 8 hour day at the station , and breaking news comes in . 


. Many of the state and local NEWS REPORTERS will work 12-16 hour shifts for days/nights at a time when we get a big storm.
We just had several city REPORTERS who were working 10 straight days averaging 10 hours a day or more. 
What impact does this have, if any, on REPORTER fatigue? What are the trade-offs? What's safe and reasonable in your minds.

Have you ever worked 10 to 16 hours a day to meet deadline? How many hours a day did you work during 9/11 ? 
Do you think that this has any impact on your objectivity and the public safety when you leave the station and drive home? 

Or should plow drivers call it quits after 8 hours , when the roads to the hospital are still closed , the firemen and ambulance drivers cant get to work, the police are stuck home . Plow trucks , big and small are essential in clearing the roads , and parking lots 
so that essential services can be provided to the residents of the area. Fireman ,police man , doctors ,nurses etc and plow drivers 
do whats necessary so that every one elses lives can return to normal as soon as possible. 

Like someone else posted , go ride in a plow truck , or better yet drive one yourself . Nothing beats first hand experience. I am sure somebody in Columbus would gladly let you ride along with them from start to finish so you can realy see what goes on .


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## Gadget (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cja1987 _


*

VERY true but the problem is he could search the site and find out what people don't tell him *[/QUOTE]

You are quite correct, however, in that way you won't feel like such an a$$ if you are quoted, misquoted, or even much worse and normal news reporting tactic - Taken out of Context !!


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

> _Originally posted by CamLand _
> *hey Roger,i remeber you when you were a reporter in Detroit,i think your best bet would to ride along with a county rig,they drive 8-16 hour shifts.depending of course on the size of the storm... *


County rigs are bound by DOT regulations as far as drivers are concerned. Plus, County rigs have only one gear... Forward. They are not constantly backing up, changing the blade position, getting out to shovel, dealing with angry customers, etc. It would be much better to ride with a truck that does commercial and residential accounts.


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## CatDieselPower (Feb 5, 2004)

Doctors in the emergency room don't just call it quits after 8 hours. I will work as long as I need to so I can get through the storm, but I won't hesitate to take an hour nap when I get drained. People complain that you don't get their lot done first, and now in the same breath they are going to start complaining about how dangerous plow drivers are to the rest of soceity. I think the real danger to soceity is the people who are out driving around in the middle of a snowstorm going way too fast. They need to stay home and let us do our jobs. Just my two cents.


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## 04superduty (Jan 9, 2004)

I like how the DOT truck don't have to abide by weight laws. One friend who plows for the DOT said that with a belly blade, front mount for a plow, and sander box they can only carry about 1 yard of salt or sand to be under weight. Mind you this is on a single axle truck.


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## QMVA (Oct 9, 2003)

I never trust news people. Sure Roger i bet your a great guy and have good intentions but you have a boss, and your boss knows that the best way to get viewers is to tell people that their in danger for example. Are you safe around plow trucks see tonight at 10. What does the common person think "am i safe? maybe i should watch" Our local news did a similar story and made it seem like plow drivers are the most dangerous thing on the road. If you want to know if were dangerous on the road try to remember how many plow truck accidents you heard of last year from reckless driving.:angry:


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## 04superduty (Jan 9, 2004)

A local news station had a quick news segment about plow drivers. They basically said what you need in regards to plow lights, then went on to talk about the bad weather they drive in. Then they ended the segment by saying how few accidents plow trucks really get into. I was surprising that they didn't make plow drivers out to some crazy person.


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## SkykingHD (Jan 31, 2002)

*working long hours*

When a large storm hits we work up to 12 hrs. After 12 hrs we have found men get tired. When anyone is tired he makes mistakes. Mistakes cost money. If a large storm comes and you are over booked... it shows.

Plan your work and work your plan. Remember.. the brinks truck stops at the grave. You work till you die.. your wifes next boyfriend thanks you... they will spend all the money you made.

Dave


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## LI landscaping (Dec 4, 2002)

Sorry no help here but if you wanted to write an article about what the common person can do to help the "plower" be safer I am sure you would get many responses.


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## parrothead (Nov 19, 2003)

*fatigue?*

im confused, we go to work at 8 am and work till about 4 or 5 and then go home. its just like anyone elses job.


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## Great Lakes Snow Removal (Jan 19, 2002)

I'm getting the impression that roger is'nt getting a story based on this info.


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## OffRoadPlow (Dec 30, 2002)

Strange, seems when 1000+ solders lives were at stake the goverment had no problem with having me in a snipers post sitting on top of 10 story building in the middle east with a loaded weapon looking through scopes for anyone that could attack the base as our first like of defence for 3 days straight, then let me sleep for a few hours on the 4th day, then train on the 5th day, then back to it for another 3 days, and did this for over a year on that same rotation... 

And you think the few hours that I stay up for plowing is a story? Good luck there, heck I am at my day job for 2 or 3 days straight when there are networking or server issues, then I drive home too. Wow, I am just a problem waiting to happen. 

Truth be known, any good honest plower, knows what he or she is able to handle and will do what it takes to get the rest we need to be safe, end of story.


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## JElmWin (Jan 10, 2004)

I have to say I'm disappointed in many replies here. Why show such paranoia and defensiveness? Sure Roger is running an attention getting piece for ratings. But is that any reason to lose your composure and come out swinging? We're all professionals here, aren't we? I would hope that any visitor would get the impression that we're here to improve ourselves. Not pull up the drawbridge and train our cannons against attack. Give Roger something he can quote back to the public that will enhance our reputation please! Let's not fall back upon the "push the snow up against the deadbeat's garage door" mentality. 
Firesuit is on.:yow!: Let's go.:angry: 
John


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## QMVA (Oct 9, 2003)

OK plowing snow is fun and the people who do it know how their equipment reacts and are smart enough to know to pull of the road and take a break when they start to daze off. We are no more of a danger on the road then anyone else on the road. When you have a 600-1000lb. piece of equipment on the front of your vehicle you pay much more attention to what your doing. Plus we are usually on the road when no one else is on the road. Even if we did get in an accident like head on the plow will prevent the other vehicle from going underneath us and it will take some of the impact. Do the hours add up yea but its not hard to train your body to handle it. If you started staying up late and getting up early the first week would be hard to handle but the second would be much easier and soon it wont bother you. The same thing happens when you stay awake longer.

Thank You and GOOD BYE:angry: :salute:


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

well a good reporter wouldnt quote anything off this site . He cant verify the source of information.


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## RogerMcCoy (Feb 17, 2004)

Thanks Guys for your feedback: Slings and arrows and all. 
I'm looking specifically at municipal, county and state snow plow operators. Two researchers who I've interviewed say drivers are at greater risk for accident if:

1. They work 60 or more hours in any 5 day period.
2. Have a turnaround with 8 or less hours between shifts.
3. Work more than 18 hours in a stretch.

The Federal Government won't let over the CMV road haulers work more than:
1. 11 hours following 10 hours off duty.
2. Beyond the 14th hour after coming on duty, following 10 hours off duty.
3. After 60/70 hours on duty in 7/8 consecutive days. 

Is that resonable? 
Fire away------
Roger


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## OffRoadPlow (Dec 30, 2002)

Municipal, county and state snow plow operators (I am sure there are some here) are probably the better ones to ask, as they would know. There is a difference with plowing driveways and parking lots when compared to the work of clearing streets,, IMO

Different ride, different rules, different dangers and other types of things to keep aware of if you ask me. Most of those trucks are far louder, has a far rougher ride, and different controls, and other items, than a standard plow truck that most would use here. Yes there are some with larger rigs, but most I would think are nowhere near the municipal rigs. I did go for a ride along in one back a few years ago,,, Night and day difference... JMO

Good luck with your story, just remember, even though we are defensive (I speak only for my self) , it's only because this is one of those jobs that is always under the scope, we just try to protect that which we love, and there are some media types that like to make us out to be the bad guy... Please don't be one of them, again, good luck.


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## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

> _Originally posted by RogerMcCoy _
> *Thanks Guys for your feedback: Slings and arrows and all.
> I'm looking specifically at municipal, county and state snow plow operators. Two researchers who I've interviewed say drivers are at greater risk for accident if:
> 
> ...


Sounds like you quotes a bunch of Goverment documents.

What you need to do is talk to muni and state officials. However I will warn you, your story has the ability to drastically effect budgets of states and towns. Here is the bottom line, munis and states hire X amount of people to work 40 hours a week, mostly M-F 7:00 to 3:30. Storms do not follow these employees working schedules, and there is no way they ever will. The end result is you would need 3 drivers per truck to allow employees to work a "safe" work day. Tell me where the money is going to come from to triple the work force, it is not possible to triple the work force with seasonal employees. It is also not possible to shut down operations for 8 or 16 hours.

Just look at the can of worm you may open up.

Geoff


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

Rojer you ask Is that reasonable? Fatigue levels will vary with the person. Factor in age , health, and weight. Their food intake during that peroid, is it day or night. Is the truck they are driving automatic or manual. Is the person under stress at home . The experience of the driver. The roads being travled. The outside temp. There is no correct answer.

As you well know a CDL driver can only work so many hours. But a nurse can pull a double shift , a intern at a hospital can put in 80 plus hours a week, And you or I can hop in our cars and drive 24 hours straight. I think snowplow drivers can handle them selves


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## apkole (Mar 1, 2003)

I think that what you will find is that local municipalities probably don't have to comply with DOT regs. Hey if load limits aren't enforced for municipal trucks, why would they have to comply with any other agency rules?

Andy


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## ebaron (Dec 27, 2002)

Roger,
Two things.
The problem with statistics, is that the people interpreting them, are not necessarily trained to do so. Let me explain a scenario with your data. Each case shows that the plow driver is working many hours. He would only be doing that for one reason: there is a lot of snow! If there is lot of snow for 5 days, you probably have a blizzard and therefore, difficult driving conditions. So, does the data show that more hours create unsafe conditions OR are the bad driving conditions (weather) the major cause of the accidents? 
example:
Every time it snows hard in Rochester, the news is full of accidents in the AM. If it was Friday, then you can conclude that the commuters had a long week, and therefore are not safe drivers. Or was it the weather? Does the data you acquired identify the other causes of the accidents or whatever result was used to arrive at the conclusion? Do you have all the data from the study or is it just one part of a study?

Second thought: 
You should consider a complete story, if it's intent is safety. With snow plowing, come bad conditions. Plow trucks (most) are equipped for these conditions, both mechanically and with skilled drivers. Commuters (not all, but a relatively high percentage) on the other hand are not as prepared (poor tires, speeding SUV's and general disregard for plow trucks, which are properly marked with hazard lighting). If the story is about making roads safer, 'regulating' these types of drivers would likely yield safer roads during storms. 

Don't get me wrong, driving when drowsy is not safe. I am not arguing that. But if someone spins their BMW SUV and then causes a pile up, the injuries casued will probably be worse than a snowplow accident. Now... which one happens more often? Data is good, if properly and fully interpreted.

Impress us, tell the whole story.


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## elite1 (Dec 30, 2003)

You can't put a limit on time spent plowing. Every truck, every route will be different and take it's toll differently. The best that can be done is to make it know to the driver that it is ok to take a break, and is encuraged to do so.

a city truck going forward has to pay close attention because of higher speeds and more breaking distance.

a small pick up does parking lots. 10-20 mph max, but hits a pile hard and backs up a lot

There has been so little snow the past 3 years here that I am forced to over book my routes to stay in buisness. A new plow is over $4,000 plus a $4,000 salt spreader, plus a $40,000 truck. That is just for a pick up truck. Insurance is high, fuel prices keep rising, plow parts are almost a ripe off(no choice in that mattter). All these things cost $$ for both me and a city/state


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## Tommy10plows (Jan 1, 2001)

Plowmen, nothing good can come of this.

The best comment to the media is "No Comment"


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## QMVA (Oct 9, 2003)

Hey Roger I want a copy of your news article!!!


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## RogerMcCoy (Feb 17, 2004)

Driver fatigue research? Since some of you asked here are a few of the researchers or studies I have referred with.

http://www.hsrc.unc.edu/pressrelease/index.htm

Driver Fatigue and Alertness Study (DFAS) . The DFAS, performed by the Essex Corporation, was the most comprehensive over-the-road study of commercial driver alertness ever conducted. It was a collaborative effort involving FHWA OMC, Transport Canada, the Trucking Research Institute (TRI) of the American Trucking Associations (ATA) Foundation, three motor carriers, and other research and industry organizations.

The study involved real revenue runs, 4 different driving schedules, 80 drivers, and more than 200,000 miles of highway driving. Numerous measures were taken of the drivers' alertness and performance during driving and of their physiology during off-duty sleep periods. The DFAS results are major scientific inputs to the current re-examination of FHWA's 60-year-old driver HOS regulations. Major findings included:

Driver alertness and performance were more consistently related to time-of-day than to time-on-task. Drowsiness episodes were 8 times more likely between midnight and 6am than during other times. 
During their daily main sleep period, drivers slept for only about 5 hours, which was 2 hours less sleep than their "ideal" requirement of slightly over 7 hours. 
Drivers' stated self-assessments of their levels of alertness do not correlate well with objective measures of performance. Drivers were not very good at assessing their own levels of alertness. 
There were significant individual differences among drivers in levels of alertness and performance. 
The DFAS Executive Summary is available through the FMCSA home page: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safetyprogs/research/researchpubs.htm . The Technical Summary (PB 97-129688) and the project final report (PB 98-102346) are available from the National Technical Information Service (NTIS), 5285 Port Royal Road, Springfield, VA, 22161, 703-487-4828. (FMCSA Project Manager: Deborah Freund, 202-366-5541).

What Is Fatigue?
Deborah Freund found that a definition for fatigue is elusive, she offered a list of outcomes that characterize fatigue:

Decreased alertness, 
Decreased vigilance/watchfulness, 
Increased information-processing and decision-making time, 
Increased reaction time, 
More variable and less effective control responses, 
Decreased motivation, and 
Decreased psychophysiological arousal (measured by changes in body temperature, brain waves, heart action and nervous system activity). 
Many factors contribute to fatigue, and drivers are often not aware of how fatigued they have become. According to Freund, stresses that add to fatigue include:

Many hours of driving, requiring a high alertness level, 
Many hours on-duty (non-driving tasks), 
Driving at low point in circadian cycle (24-hour body rhythm), 
Irregular work schedules (circadian "jet-lag" effects), 
Inadequate or poor quality sleep (timing, location, sleep disorders), 
Boredom or monotony (external environment), 
Pressure to meet delivery deadlines, 
Restricted movement or seating discomfort, 
Heat, noise, vibration, and poor air quality/air contaminants, 
Mountain, desert, or adverse-weather driving, and 
Heavy physical work.

Local/Short Haul Driver Fatigue Crash Data Analysis . This small analytical study, performed by UMTRI, developed several definitions of local/short haul (LSH) versus over-the-road trucks and examined the prevalence of driver fatigue as a principal factor in truck crashes. Data sources included the 1992 Truck Inventory and Use Survey and 1991-93 Trucks Involved in Fatal Accidents files. LSH trucks in these crash data files were defined based on vehicle size (i.e., Class 3-6 single-unit straight trucks) and/or by operational nature (i.e., trip length). Not surprisingly, trip distance was found to have the most pronounced effect on the percentage of fatal crashes that were fatigue-related; shorter trips are associated with a much lower incidence. The risk of LSH truck involvement in fatigue-related fatal crashes is a fraction of that of over-the-road trucks. The project final report, Short-Haul Trucks and Driver Fatigue , (FHWA-MC-98-016, NTIS PB98-127129) is available from FHWA or NTIS. The FMCSA PM for a current, larger human factors study of LSH driver fatigue (which has included both focus groups and instrumented vehicle studies) is Bob Carroll, 202-385-2388.

Managing fatigue

It is clear that the best way to manage fatigue is simply to get enough sleep. Medical researchers suggest that 8 hours a night is about the right amount for most people, although some, particularly those with sleep disorders might find this difficult to achieve.

Other fatigue management techniques might help. For example, recent research at Flinders University 
(Australia) has shown that subjects waking from a 10-minute nap demonstrate an immediate significant increase in alertness and mental performance that lasts for at least an hour afterwards. In contrast, a 30-minute nap fails to produce a similar immediate increase (although it does induce an increase about 30 minutes after the end of the nap). One useful practice for fatigued drivers, then, is to pull over and take a short 'power' nap.

Various road-safety publications outline other fatigue-management techniques.

Have an action plan to manage fatigue (eg, plan regular rest-stops and set realistic travel goals); understand the signs of fatigue (eg, constant yawning, blurred vision, slowed reactions, heavy or sore eyes, poor concentration, impatience, not remembering the last few miles of the trip, etc).; 
avoid driving during 'normal' sleep times (between midnight and 6 am for most people); 
stop if feeling sleepy and take a nap; 
obtain sufficient high-quality sleep between periods of driving; and 
avoid alcohol. 
Maintaining a sensible sleep regime is the key. Driving and drowsiness are not good bedfellows; in the dead of night, it's better to wrap yourself around a pillow than around a highway bridge abuttment.


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## Gadget (Nov 22, 2003)

The best comment to the media is "No Comment" [/B][/QUOTE]

I tried to tell them that - but it won't sink in until it happens to you personally.Everyone wants to be heard - It's that 15 minutes on fame scenario - Being in the Fire service for 22 years I have seen it happen many times - someone thinking they are helping makes a comment that is taken out of context and sensationalized for TV ratings.


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## Tommy10plows (Jan 1, 2001)

Roger, you want to do an article about dangerous drivers? Do one on grandpa or grandma driving their white lincolns, caddys or grand marquis down to florida. 45 mph in the left lane with their right blinker on....

Well seriously, if you want to do a real article, do one on kids and grandkids who abandon their elderly parents or grandpartents until they sniff the size of mom's estate, then have her baker acted in a substandard facility and loot the estate while she rots in a lockdown. I see that one alot. For example, did you realize that a ward ( the person in lockdown) has no constitutional rights, cannot name their own attorney, or even talk to a prior attorney if the guardian (the looter) objects to that prior attorney, cannot get mail, choose their own course of medical care, choose who can or cannot come to visit them in the facility, or even choose where they want to live, ie, in their home with 24 hour nursing, or in a lockdown hell hole. The kids do anything to preserve the estate, and then reap the rewards of their behavior. Keep the expenses down, more money for the kids, too bad is Grammy is in a hell hole with slop on the front of her dress...

Tell your readers about the importance of medical surrogates, to plan ahead, and have clear documents in place for extended care so the wretched children or grandchildren can't line their pockets at Grammy's expense while she is still alive....


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