# Advice on bidding 3mile mountain road



## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

I have a chance to bid on a private road that goes up a mountain. And haven't really bid on a mountain road before and looking for some insight. The road is 3miles long, 16 feet wide, needs to be kept clear 24/7/365, never more than 1.5 inches on the road, it has a decent incline but nothing sevre. I had thought about purchasing an old state truck, but learned that the current service provider has just been using a 3/4 ton pickup, so I feel pretty confident my 1 ton can do, and I can always use chains if need be. I know salt is going to be my best friend. This is also a per year contract. So I'm looking to get any advice or tips that you all can give me. Thanks


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

Seems like a cool job. I take it since you have a one ton you have a decent size plow (over 8'). If it were me, I would look at that job not as a 3 mile road, but a 6 lane mile road due to the fact that your gonna need to make at least 2 passes to clear the road with plow slanted. Most likely it's gonna take 4 passes to do a quality job unless you have a 10 footer. Anyways for plowing I've seen roadway plowing go between $100-$200 per lane mile.....for this I would suggest charging $150-$175 per lane mile since it is a mountain road. As far as salt, you can use anywhere between 400-700 pounds per lane mile and since it isn't flat, your prolly gonna wanna lay it down heavier. So again $150-$175 per lane mile on the salt......obviously only 6 lane miles with regards to salt. So if you get a 2 inch snow.....looking at a range between $1800-$2100 for plowing and salting.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

About right,at least 12 miles of plowing each time. And don't think your going to be plowing at 50mph either,so your going to have to spend some time there.And if it's a dirt/stone road that's not frozen ,its going to be messy,


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## oneoldsap (Dec 26, 2011)

Do you guys salt dirt roads ? Just asking , as that's unheard of around here !


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

The road is paved. As far as estimating the plowing goes, I guess I have three options, 1) bid it by lane miles, which I think might put me out of being competitive, unless the per lane is a per event price 2) bid by square footage 3) approximate time, 4 passes on a 3 mile rd = 12mi @ 5mph is approximately 2.5+ hours, at an hourly rate of $200-250/hr = $500-$625/per push up to 2in. The kicker is nobody has any information on the number of events per year or the average snowfall because it's on the top of the tallest mountain in the county and gets weather that we dont get in the valley.

As for salt, it could be classified as a single lane because its fairly narrow for being 2 lanes.

Good tips, keep 'em coming - Thanks


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

250.00 an hr?


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

grandview;1454091 said:


> 250.00 an hr?


Think its too much? Too little? Its kind of a dangerous road and 20-25min from my house. So I'm not doing it unless its worth my time.

Also, they provide two salt bins so that I can store salt, sand and gravel, and a parking lot to leave basically anything I want there camper, trucks, loaders, etc. There's more plowing at the top of mountain I'm just unsure of the road


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

fairwaymowing;1454052 said:


> Seems like a cool job. I take it since you have a one ton you have a decent size plow (over 8'). If it were me, I would look at that job not as a 3 mile road, but a 6 lane mile road due to the fact that your gonna need to make at least 2 passes to clear the road with plow slanted. Most likely it's gonna take 4 passes to do a quality job unless you have a 10 footer. Anyways for plowing I've seen roadway plowing go between $100-$200 per lane mile.....for this I would suggest charging $150-$175 per lane mile since it is a mountain road. As far as salt, you can use anywhere between 400-700 pounds per lane mile and since it isn't flat, your prolly gonna wanna lay it down heavier. So again $150-$175 per lane mile on the salt......obviously only 6 lane miles with regards to salt. So if you get a 2 inch snow.....looking at a range between $1800-$2100 for plowing and salting.


Great info fairway! Thanks, You taught me something today.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

I would estimate in some plow markers for the edge of the road also. Sounds like there isn't any curbs, and Mountain road sounds like there is some steep drop offs.

Also make sure you have a skid handy or at least a good tow truck company just in case.

.....


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## Bandit (Jan 5, 2005)

Is the current/old provider still doing it and they are just looking for cheaper bids ?
Or do they start there contract's on March 1st ?


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

J.R. Services;1454088 said:


> The road is paved. As far as estimating the plowing goes, I guess I have three options, 1) bid it by lane miles, which I think might put me out of being competitive, unless the per lane is a per event price 2) bid by square footage 3) approximate time, 4 passes on a 3 mile rd = 12mi @ 5mph is approximately 2.5+ hours, at an hourly rate of $200-250/hr = $500-$625/per push up to 2in. The kicker is nobody has any information on the number of events per year or the average snowfall because it's on the top of the tallest mountain in the county and gets weather that we dont get in the valley.
> 
> As for salt, it could be classified as a single lane because its fairly narrow for being 2 lanes.
> 
> Good tips, keep 'em coming - Thanks


I agree with your idea that the salt can just be one application covering both lanes. But here's where the problem arrises. It's deff gonna take some time to make one pass along the 3 miles......30 mins prolly, then turn around and go back.....so that road is gonna be left untreated. That's not gonna be very good service in my opinion. Or your gonna salt on your first pass, then come back and plow the salt off the one side and not resalt? So Looking at 6 lane miles with salt when plowing....or if it's just icy and salt is all that is needed, than sure one pass, but you better believe your gonna be dumping considerable more to cover all 16 feet of roadway. As far as plowing goes.....around here in Upstate NY we don't do this 0-2, 2-4 inch BS that goes around and since this is a roadway your gonna have to be ready 24/7/365 and plow it every event so it's not gonna have more than and inch or two each time. So for that reason I'd be firm with the price. Your gonna wear your plow blade pretty quick plowing 12 miles an event. Your right though about being competitive with your prices for your area. Every area is different, and if you want the job you can't be absurd, but if your the best of the best, very reliable and honest, that comes with a price.....don't cheat yourself. Good luck lets keep this discussion going and please follow up with what happens since we are helping ya out!


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

White Gardens - Definitely a good idea, yes there will be at least one bobcat on site and possibly a 4wd tractor.

Bandit - The customer is happy with the current service but is required to bid it out

Fairwaymowing - For salt I was thinking of doing this, pass 1 (up and down) plow and turn salt on low just to cover exposed pavement, and then on pass number 2 just plow to widen the road, then make one last pass down the middle with salt, covering the entire road with a light coating.

This is also my first experience with bulk, I'm thinking a salt sand mix (which is what the current contractor is using) and then they also require anti-skid. But Im not clear on how/when you apply the anti skid. Do you mix it somehow with the salt/sand or apply it later?

I had figured on between 3500-5100lbs of salt/sand for a healthy application

For per lane mile pricing, your $100-$200/lane mile is per storm, without salt, for a pickup? or a dump truck with 10' blade?

And how do you determine a yearly price for a road?
Keep the tips coming, I will let everybody what the outcome is.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

It's about 2.5 acres to spread, so I would think 6000lbs on a heavy applications. Down to 3000 lbs on a light application.

.....


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

Here's my math.

3miles x 5,280 (ft per mi) = 15,840 linear feet x 16'w = 253,440 sq ft round to 255k sqft
rate of 15-20lbs per 1k sq ft = 3,825lbs - 5100lbs
as for lane miles I've seen anywhere from 250-700/mi on here = 1,500lbs - 4,200lbs

btw there's 110k sqft of lot at the top, so that'll make it a little more worth it.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

J.R. Services;1453864 said:


> I have a chance to bid on a private road that goes up a mountain. And haven't really bid on a mountain road before and looking for some insight. The road is 3miles long, 16 feet wide, needs to be kept clear 24/7/365, never more than 1.5 inches on the road, it has a decent incline but nothing sevre. I had thought about purchasing an old state truck, but learned that the current service provider has just been using a 3/4 ton pickup, so I feel pretty confident my 1 ton can do, and I can always use chains if need be. I know salt is going to be my best friend. This is also a per year contract. So I'm looking to get any advice or tips that you all can give me. Thanks





fairwaymowing;1454052 said:


> Seems like a cool job. I take it since you have a one ton you have a decent size plow (over 8'). If it were me, I would look at that job not as a 3 mile road, but a 6 lane mile road due to the fact that your gonna need to make at least 2 passes to clear the road with plow slanted. Most likely it's gonna take 4 passes to do a quality job unless you have a 10 footer. Anyways for plowing I've seen roadway plowing go between $100-$200 per lane mile.....for this I would suggest charging $150-$175 per lane mile since it is a mountain road. As far as salt, you can use anywhere between 400-700 pounds per lane mile and since it isn't flat, your prolly gonna wanna lay it down heavier. So again $150-$175 per lane mile on the salt......obviously only 6 lane miles with regards to salt. So if you get a 2 inch snow.....looking at a range between $1800-$2100 for plowing and salting.


J.R. Is that Sugarloaf Mountain in Frederick, MD? If it is, Fairway has your answer. I am familiar with that property and the management can be fussy. You will spend a lot of time there. $1800 - $2100 is where you need to be.


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

lettuceman, its not sugarloaf mountain, although I will remember that, this is located in clearspring, close to whitetail but a littler higher in elevation, nice to have someone from around here chime in, the thing that is really kind of stumping me is how much to estimate on, I know most guys go 125% of avg snowfall, but since this is on the mountain they get weather that hagerstown doesn't, hagerstown comes in at an average of 25inches/year approximately 6 plows/year (2 over 2") and 8-9 salts. So I'm thinking 1.5x-2x hagerstowns average. Does this sound reasonable?


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

So I take it they, and you want a seasonal contract rather than per trip. 95% of mine are seasonal and I prefer that. I would suggest coming up with a seasonal price (17k?) and dividing it into 5 monthly payments, Nov-March? Not sure if that works for MD......but you get the idea. BTW are the residents of this mountain road paying for your service? The town doesn't take care of the roads?


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

$1800-2100 PER TIME????? WOW I'll say it again, I NEED TO MOVE


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

Fairway - they are requesting a seasonal, which is kind of why I want this job, up until now everything I have is per visit, push, increamental etc... and its snowed twice this year. As for the owners, its not residential and its not public, that's all I can say.
As for the yearly price, I'm interested in how you came up with that number (10/year, ?salts ?plows)

Nicols Landsca - Yes we're higher but it hardly snows around here. Our yearly average is 25" most years its less than 10", but then every 5-10 years we get some monsters.

Some more info if it helps anybody help me estimate.
Elevation of the town: >600ft
Elevation of the top of the road and parking lot: 2,000ft
Average snowfall of the town: 25"
Average snowfal of mountain: Unknown
Average snows of town: 6
Average pushes of town: 8
Average salts of town: 8.5

So my question is how much do you think the elevation will change precipitation?
Again, thanks for all the tips and info, they are greatly apprieciated


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks for the elevation figures......I actually tired to find some topographical maps of this area.....I have a geology degree, so I was gonna give you some insight to how I would look at the increase in events due to the higher elevation. I am assuming your season starts a littler later than ours and will end earlier than ours...with that and for example if it's a cold november or early december day (35 degrees) in town, up at the top (1500 ft higher for easy math) will be below 30 degrees. How I found that is called Lapse Rate. This is the decrease in temperature with increase in elevation. So you are gonna get freezing conditions and some sort of accumulation that your gonna need to take care of. Basically for every 1,000 ft of increased elevation it will be 3.5 degrees cooler......so an average difference of 5.25 degrees from the town to the top. Just note that this an approximate, and will vary a little with different atmospheric conditions. So to figure how many more events you will have will depend on how many days are in the low to mid 30s for your location. I mean, as you can see, your not gonna need a weather watcher up there telling you the conditions, but you are gonna have to stay on the ball with temp and precipitation constantly. Sorry for the long winded response, just trying to give you an idea of the difference. At my location right on Lake Ontario we are flat, and as you go south we get into the finger lake hills, and they get the first snow fall, the last, and the tiny amounts in between, that's it. During an area wide snowfall, they don't get any more accumulation do to being higher......hope this helps!!!


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

Fairway - Thanks for the awesome info. So basically, the 1-2 snowfalls that we get that dont lay, will lay up there, and maybe a couple rains will be snow/ice. The difference is probably only going to be a couple extra salts maybe 1-2 more plows. Again, awesome info, thanks.


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

Yea.....IMO that should be right from my experience and knowledge of geology, the weather, and of course plowing. Hope you get this gig, I'm really pulling for you and hope this discussion helps you to make your own decision on the pricing and the amount of events. Good Luck!


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

and of course, your welcome for the info, this is why this site is so great! What goes around comes around and it never hurts to help out or sit back and listen.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

Very informative, Great posts fairway!Thumbs Up


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

J.R. Services;1454967 said:


> lettuceman, its not sugarloaf mountain, although I will remember that, this is located in clearspring, close to whitetail but a littler higher in elevation, nice to have someone from around here chime in, the thing that is really kind of stumping me is how much to estimate on, I know most guys go 125% of avg snowfall, but since this is on the mountain they get weather that hagerstown doesn't, hagerstown comes in at an average of 25inches/year approximately 6 plows/year (2 over 2") and 8-9 salts. So I'm thinking 1.5x-2x hagerstowns average. Does this sound reasonable?


J.R. I am learning from FairWay and the others just like you !!!!


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

Guys like fairway are what make this site.

I hate to keep rambling on and asking questions, but keep in mind this is my first seasonal. Which do you guys prefer, 1) using lane miles and estimating storms/year 2)figure a per push & per salt price and then estimate pushes & salts/year?


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## oneoldsap (Dec 26, 2011)

What is anti-skid , and why would you put it over sand ?


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## Bandit (Jan 5, 2005)

JR 
Do You have to plow inside the secure compound ? or just the outside parking lot ?
Ps
Don't forget all the turn-outs on the road 
Pps
I would of offered to do it once for free just to see it ( I mean as a trial ) . LOL


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

Seasonals are great. I prefer them....and some years you do really well and some not as great. For example last season I plowed my residentials 27 times, this year I'm at 5 with no sign of snow coming....they predicted 2-4 last night, didn't get a flake and after last season everyone wanted seasonals, even those who used to be per trip. Now do you think they wish they had paid per trip, of course, but people know that going in. Basically my point is it's a gamble for both you and the customer when paying a set price per month. I mean without a seasonal account, I'm sure your wishing you had one with steady money coming in each month. I think what you should do now, considering all the info we have is simply come up with a price you are comfortable with and that you believe is fair and competitive with others. They don't need to know how you came to your figure. Hopefully they aren't looking for the lowest price after this light year....if they are they will most likely be looking again. Anyways, come up with your cost for the amount of salt you plan on using, cost of having an employee (s) do the work, and the amount of man hours spent up there. So we figured 2.5 man hours.....ok great, but how much other work could you get done somewhere else.....if the money is similar, then that's fair for the both of you.....so if you could do it for $1500 a trip, great, if you are closer to $2000, that's fine to....everyone isn't gonna be priced exactly the same for the same job. This is a business and you need to make the correct decisions. I have walked away from jobs that I have thought were cool, but the money wasn't there......granted I end up turning people away each year for fear of being over booked....if that's not your case, and you want it, and would rather have this job then advertise to fill this void, then go for it. Lastly, I have seen seasonals that have caps......around here it would be something like 18 trips for X dollars, and every trip thereafter is X dollars billed at the end of the season. It insures yours profit margins, but some customers like the idea of cutting one check for the whole season, just an option.


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

and yes.....you have to estimate the amount of trips and saltings per year. Last year even though I went out 27 times, I still made money because I priced based on going out on the higher end of the spectrum (22 trips)....it's a crap shoot with seasonals. Sure last year per push would be better, but this year has obviously been way better. Either way, I think you will be happy with getting one big check or one each month.


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

oneoldsap - anti skid is small gravel, and the only reason its being applied is because is requried by the customer.

Bandit - I don't recall mentioning a secure compound. but yes there's other paved areas, although that's not the part that I'm wondering about.

Fairway - good advice as always, quick question, trips = storms or pushes (plowing up to 2")
as far as who wins, low bid always wins but I'm not gonna chance losing my a$$ just so I can have the "privilege" to plow a dangersous curvy mountain road. As far as caps go, the current contractor doesn't have one, so I dont think they are going to even consider a cap. Thanks again


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

Yes. Trips are one plowing and salting...helps give you an idea where you want to be for one, therefore helping you with coming up with seasonal price. From my experience about half of residentials customers look for the lowest price...the other half know they get for what the pay for with service. With commercials I've always assumed and heard that the highest and lowest bids are dismissed and the one that gets picked is somewhere in the middle. These people know what was the ballpark going rate is, and if you say the right things, like what the current provider isn't doing, your providing the increased service at your rate....which could be lower or higher. I've had customers say at the time of the contract 'that man, this looks great and I'm saving money', and some that look at me like I have 3 heads with the price I proposed. It's just the way it is, quite frankly it's laughable.


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

J.R. One thing to keep in mind .... Do not let one customer control the bulk of your income. If they drop you ..... you will be in rebuild the business mode. I am a one man operation so I would not even bid on that because that would be my only customer. Good luck withe whatever you decide.


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

Excellent point lettuceman, I believe this will be better than the situation I'm in now, because our biggest snow client is a hoa/retirement village with 115 double driveways, miles of sidewalks that requires at least 4 people and a minimum of 4hrs + 1/2 dozen commercial lots. So if I get this job, I would drop the housing community and then have one employee plow the lots and I have one guy that would probably plow the parking lot at the mountain. I hate to drop the community because they'd be a lot more loyal than this contract but last year they paid out 12k+ and this year I think its barely over 2500.


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

Seems like if you have a bobcat or 4x4 tractor on the parking lot like you said and one additional truck, seems like you could expand, rather than make a sideways step. Bobcat could load salter and plow......but obviously if you have issues with employees already at the HOA and were just waiting for something to come up to get rid of the HOA then cool. But just a thought at keep both. It could be risky......you never know, these mountain road people could be real PIAs


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

Fairway - Thats true, I probably could pull off doing everything, but I think I'd die of a heart attack before age 22, everytime it snows I feel like I'm in a time crunch and every second I'm not doing something I get more anxious. My total route for a < 3" storm is about 7hrs but 4 of that is spent in one place. I also only have one full time so I have to depend on 2 other helpers to show up every snow storm, I have about 6 total but I'm always lucky to get 2. So with this I wouldn't have to depend on any helpers, make more money, get done quicker, rarely have to get out of the truck instead of running a snowblower for 4hrs+, and deal with one customer instead of 115 retirees. But I'll just have to see how this plays out, I'll probably get lowballed by some jackwagon with a four wheeler


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

LOL....don't we all when the white stuff is flying. But 7 hours is a pretty damn long route my friend and that wouldn't work up in my neck of the woods because we can get a foot of snow in that time span....anyways I can understand wanting to work less, have less headaches and make more money.....but sometimes you just need that killer instinct.....make moves! Put the bobcat on the HOA...they save some much time when plowing driveway after driveway.


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

Waaaaay too long. Then if its over 4" the phone rings off the hook from people wanting their driveways done, and they think they're all priority #1. During the snow storms of dec 09 before I had the hoa, I plowed for 3 days straight, no sleep, did multiple commercial places and I think 75 driveways spread all over the place. had one helper but the whole time, I ended my three day sleep strike by falling asleep at 2am while hauling the skid loader back to the house and driving into a 6ft ditch. After a 600 bill for a wrecker to pull me out, I never want to do that again. I've been lucky past two years, the bigger snows have stopped at night, id love to run a bobcat push pull box in the hoa but they won't allow me, some of the residents throw a fit if they see a "big machine" in their driveway most probably don't care but it only takes a couple to spoil the fun. With a bobcat it'd only be a two man job


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

Damn man.....that's crazy....def seems like your not afraid of hard work. And about the HOA, I hate old people like that. I have a couple that during lawn mowing season ***** about how big my Z is.....just a 60" G3 29 horse Toro zero...they seem to think because it leaves awesome lines that it just lays the grass down and doesn't cut it. Sooooo I use my 52" exmark turf tracer and they are happy as can be......not difference, just a smaller machine. Whatever, I told them I have raise my prices and they could care less. I would rather see a bobcat....smaller, less chance to hit something......next year you should propose no price increase if your allowed to run the bobcat.....that way management has to deal with it.


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

The people that do the mowing are the builders/hoa president, they said they have a few that won't stop b******* unless they use a push mower, so they doubled their hoa fees, and everybodys happy, lol. The tricky part of this is that the HOA president or whatever, is the builder and I don't know if there's any wiggle room, but if I get this I will just tell them that they can either let me use it or find someone else, but I will be sure to leave on good terms just in case.


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

Yea....no reason to be nasty. So when are you gonna have any updates on this road? Any chance we can see some pics of the road itself or the view from town, or view of the town from the top.


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## J.R. Services (Aug 15, 2009)

Submitting bid early this week, should know within two weeks I would think, I'm not banking on it though. Sent you a pm don't want to post picture publicly.


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

One thing I did not see mentioned you may want to think about is how with you monitor this road? Sounds like the snow is alot deiifernt there then where you are located at almost 1 hr round trip to go check the road how will you know if it needs service or not?

Another is dont forget roads build a ton of heat in cutting edges and you burn them up twice as fast as a parking lot. With some edges being $400 plus might want to take account for that. Also in the same regard check when the last time the road was seal coated an how. Being accoss the county I dont know your practices out there but one place we do with 5miles of raod was recently chip sealed and its like sand paper. Wore out the edges twice as fast again. So normally you would burn say 1 set in a season x 2 for it being roads x2 again for the new chip seal and it added up quickly.

Also with seasonal go for a 3 or more year deal if you can it helps cover you and the client with seasons averaging out.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Are you bidding for one season only? Have you looked at an insurance policy in case it snows 15 times?


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## fairwaymowing (Oct 17, 2011)

Update!!!!!!


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