# Cost to Plow Residential Driveways



## Chris Rigsby

Hi everyone I just joined the site today & I’m new to plowing, but I went out plowing with a friend last winter and it seemed like it would be interesting to do, so I’m hoping to start my business next winter & was just curious on what everyone charges to plow residential driveways & neighborhood driveways?
Thanks! lowblue:


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## EWSplow

Chris Rigsby said:


> Hi everyone I just joined the site today & I'm new to plowing, but I went out plowing with a friend last winter and it seemed like it would be interesting to do, so I'm hoping to start my business next winter & was just curious on what everyone charges to plow residential driveways & neighborhood driveways?
> Thanks! lowblue:


Figure out how long it will take you, how much you need to make to pay expenses, insurance, etc and go from there.


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## Chris Rigsby

EWSplow said:


> Figure out how long it will take you, how much you need to make to pay expenses, insurance, etc and go from there.


Ok, Thanks for your opinion!


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## sota

why don't you work with/for your friend for a year or more, and see if you really do like it.


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## Randall Ave

And what a drive way pays here, ain't the same as other parts of the country. Where are you located?


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## EWSplow

Randall Ave said:


> And what a drive way pays here, ain't the same as other parts of the country. Where are you located?


Might add the length, width, difficulty, etc.

I've got 1 little drive, 9" wide and 75' long. 95% of the snow needs to be pushed out to the street, then pushed up in a pile between the street and walk. In the middle of the night, it takes 5 or 6 minutes. During rush hour, it takes sometimes 15 or more minutes. It's at a busy intersection.
Not all drives are alike.


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## JMHConstruction

The old lady next door paid me in cookies last weekend


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## Chris Rigsby

Yeah I probably do that. Couldn’t do that a lot this year because where we are not a lot of snow storms happened this season, but that’s a good idea


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## Chris Rigsby

Randall Ave said:


> And what a drive way pays here, ain't the same as other parts of the country. Where are you located?


That's also very true


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## Chris Rigsby

JMHConstruction said:


> The old lady next door paid me in cookies last weekend


That's a pretty good deal I'd have to say!


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## Chris Rigsby

Randall Ave said:


> And what a drive way pays here, ain't the same as other parts of the country. Where are you located?


Cambridge, Minnesota


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## sota

JMHConstruction said:


> The old lady next door paid me in cookies last weekend


If they're anything like my mom's home made from scratch chocolate chip cookies, you were over-paid.


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## Chris Rigsby

sota said:


> If they're anything like my mom's home made from scratch chocolate chip cookies, you were over-paid.


Probably lol!


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## Chris Rigsby

EWSplow said:


> Might add the length, width, difficulty, etc.
> 
> I've got 1 little drive, 9" wide and 75' long. 95% of the snow needs to be pushed out to the street, then pushed up in a pile between the street and walk. In the middle of the night, it takes 5 or 6 minutes. During rush hour, it takes sometimes 15 or more minutes. It's at a busy intersection.
> Not all drives are alike.


That's not bad at all. What do you charge for that driveway? If you don't mind me asking


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## Randall Ave

Chris Rigsby said:


> That's a pretty good deal I'd have to say!


Don't believe him, he's after the ole ladies social security check.


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## Randall Ave

One thing you have to do is come up with a minimum price. But this is in direct relation to your area.


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## Avalanche 2500

I plow a bakery, as a tip @ 6am got fresh warm Portuguese rolls


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## EWSplow

Chris Rigsby said:


> That's not bad at all. What do you charge for that driveway? If you don't mind me asking


I do a bunch of commercial and residential for that client and my sidewalk crew does the walks, so it's based on that. It gets billed at 10 minutes, which is one 6th of what I estimate my hourly.
If you can come up with a minimum, based on what you need to make, you can go that route.
Hope that helps.
If you have several drives in close proximity, you can do them for less.
Example, you sign contracts for a combination of 10 driveways, lots, etc and the route takes you say 5 hours including drive time. You have to Cover all your expenses, repairs, wear and tear etc and pay yourself what you're worth for a day.
I'll also add that the price increases with snow depth.
Ask your buddy how much he'd pay you as a sub and tack on some more.
For your 1st year, don't take on more than what you think you can do in 4,or 5 hours. Traffic, weather, stopping to wizz etc all add time.

There is no magic number.


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## Chris Rigsby

EWSplow said:


> I do a bunch of commercial and residential for that client and my sidewalk crew does the walks, so it's based on that. It gets billed at 10 minutes, which is one 6th of what I estimate my hourly.
> If you can come up with a minimum, based on what you need to make, you can go that route.
> Hope that helps.
> If you have several drives in close proximity, you can do them for less.
> Example, you sign contracts for a combination of 10 driveways, lots, etc and the route takes you say 5 hours including drive time. You have to Cover all your expenses, repairs, wear and tear etc and pay yourself what you're worth for a day.
> I'll also add that the price increases with snow depth.
> Ask your buddy how much he'd pay you as a sub and tack on some more.
> For your 1st year, don't take on more than what you think you can do in 4,or 5 hours. Traffic, weather, etc all add time.
> 
> There is no magic number.


Ok I'll ask my buddy about that & there shouldn't be a hole lot of driveways & lots to plow around by me & thanks for your info!


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## Richh56

I average 25 for a easy two car wide 4 car deep driveway. Northern ohio


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## Chris Rigsby

Richh56 said:


> I average 25 for a easy two car wide 4 car deep driveway. Northern ohio


That's no to bad at all


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## Chris Rigsby

Would it make sense at all to charge to my customers per snow storm? Instead of doing a bunch a math to figure out a price


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## sota

There are pros and cons to every and any pricing model.
Do you want to be left holding the bag, getting paid $25 for a driveway you had to push 4 times because it was THAT kind of storm?


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## Chris Rigsby

sota said:


> There are pros and cons to every and any pricing model.
> Do you want to be left holding the bag, getting paid $25 for a driveway you had to push 4 times because it was THAT kind of storm?


Oh I guess not then. So how do you get paid per hour then if your the only person?


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## sota

I get per hour because I work for someone else.
When I was thinking about doing it on my own, I was considering pricing as $10/inch, $20 minimum charge, no shoveling. Before I was able to spin that up though, my landscaper offered me per-hour and I decided it worked for me, as it's less headache to deal with (people, in general, suck when it comes time to pay up.)


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## Chris Rigsby

sota said:


> I get per hour because I work for someone else.
> When I was thinking about doing it on my own, I was considering pricing as $10/inch, $20 minimum charge, no shoveling. Before I was able to spin that up though, my landscaper offered me per-hour and I decided it worked for me, as it's less headache to deal with (people, in general, suck when it comes time to pay up.)


If you do charge per inch what would suck then if it doesn't snow at all one winter


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## sota

you mean like the current winter here? 
then I'd make no money. but then I'd also be out no money, as it's just me.
I might be different than a lot of people on this board, as I'm treating this as a hobby that brings me in a bit of cash when it works out.


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## Chris Rigsby

sota said:


> you mean like the current winter here?
> then I'd make no money. but then I'd also be out no money, as it's just me.
> I might be different than a lot of people on this board, as I'm treating this as a hobby that brings me in a bit of cash when it works out.


Lol at least we got snow now!  
What charge per inch on curiosity?


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## JMHConstruction

NJ has the highest rates for insurance that I've seen. In most places, if you charge what he is charging you won't get much if any work.

Here is a very basic way to figure out what YOU need to charge to make money. Hopefully other new guys will see this as well..

Sit down and figure out your costs. Call around to a few insurance companies. Find out what it costs to get general liability insurance for snow removal (I personally have 2 mil coverage, which is pretty standard around here), and to get your truck a commercial auto policy. If you plan on hiring anyone, look into a work comp policy as well. Figure out how much it will cost in fuel to run your truck per storm. How much time you will spend doing paperwork, maintenance, and other "non-plowing" work. What you maintenance costs will be. Everything you will have to do, and every penny you will spend needs to be figured out (best guess since you have no experience or numbers to go by). Then after you have your costs.

Then find out what your average snowfall total is for your area. If available, look even further at how the storms are broken down. Divide that by your plowing trigger. That is a ROUGH number of how many times in a given year you will go out and plow.

Take your total operating costs and divide that by your number of plowable events. Then add in your personal hourly earnings to the specific job. That is what you need to break even. If you salt or use deicing products, add what is needed to the specific job as well, along with any markup on the product. Add a profit, and you have your final price.

Example with very rough, easy numbers, assuming every driveway is the same...
40" per year / 2" trigger = 20 plowable events
Say you need $10,000 to cover your winter overhead (no one knows this number but you).
10,000/20 = 500. You need to make minimum $500 per storm to cover your overhead.
If you can get 25 driveways -- 500/25 = $20 per driveway to cover your overhead.
If each driveway takes your 20 minutes... 60(minutes in an hour)/20 = 4 driveways per hour.
25(driveways per storm)/4 = 6.25 hours in your route.
Say you want to make $50 per hour plowing.
50/4(driveways per hour) = $12.50 per driveway in labor costs
That means your break even cost per driveway is 20+12.50 = $32.50
Next add your profit MARGIN (margin = cost/(1-profit percentage)). Let's say 20% progit
32.50/(1-20) = $40.625 (let's round it up to $41)

That is what you need to make per driveway to make a profit, and that is why no company and use another companies numbers, they will never be the same.


Then after all that, you have to see if your market will ever allow you to charge that. If the market won't bare it, you have to either figure out how to be more efficient or just stay inside where it's warm. Never drop what you need to make per hour to stay "competitive." There is no point in running a business if you're just going to lose money.


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## Chris Rigsby

JMHConstruction said:


> NJ has the highest rates for insurance that I've seen. In most places, if you charge what he is charging you won't get much if any work.
> 
> Here is a very basic way to figure out what YOU need to charge to make money. Hopefully other new guys will see this as well..
> 
> Sit down and figure out your costs. Call around to a few insurance companies. Find out what it costs to get general liability insurance for snow removal (I personally have 2 mil coverage, which is pretty standard around here), and to get your truck a commercial auto policy. If you plan on hiring anyone, look into a work comp policy as well. Figure out how much it will cost in fuel to run your truck per storm. How much time you will spend doing paperwork, maintenance, and other "non-plowing" work. What you maintenance costs will be. Everything you will have to do, and every penny you will spend needs to be figured out (best guess since you have no experience or numbers to go by). Then after you have your costs.
> 
> Then find out what your average snowfall total is for your area. If available, look even further at how the storms are broken down. Divide that by your plowing trigger. That is a ROUGH number of how many times in a given year you will go out and plow.
> 
> Take your total operating costs and divide that by your number of plowable events. Then add in your personal hourly earnings to the specific job. That is what you need to break even. If you salt or use deicing products, add what is needed to the specific job as well, along with any markup on the product. Add a profit, and you have your final price.
> 
> Example with very rough, easy numbers, assuming every driveway is the same...
> 40" per year / 2" trigger = 20 plowable events
> Say you need $10,000 to cover your winter overhead (no one knows this number but you).
> 10,000/20 = 500. You need to make minimum $500 per storm to cover your overhead.
> If you can get 25 driveways -- 500/25 = $20 per driveway to cover your overhead.
> If each driveway takes your 20 minutes... 60(minutes in an hour)/20 = 4 driveways per hour.
> 25(driveways per storm)/4 = 6.25 hours in your route.
> Say you want to make $50 per hour plowing.
> 50/4(driveways per hour) = $12.50 per driveway in labor costs
> That means your break even cost per driveway is 20+12.50 = $32.50
> Next add your profit MARGIN (margin = cost/(1-profit percentage)). Let's say 20% progit
> 32.50/(1-20) = $40.625 (let's round it up to $41)
> 
> That is what you need to make per driveway to make a profit, and that is why no company and use another companies numbers, they will never be the same.
> 
> Then after all that, you have to see if your market will ever allow you to charge that. If the market won't bare it, you have to either figure out how to be more efficient or just stay inside where it's warm. Never drop what you need to make per hour to stay "competitive." There is no point in running a business if you're just going to lose money.


Wow thanks for all that information! I think all that math you did is about right for the the driveway's by me. I will provide deicing chemicals also, along shoveling & snowblowing. Your also right I don't a lot of experience plowing. But thanks again for the information!


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## JMHConstruction

JMHConstruction said:


> 32.50/(1-20) = $40.625


Since it's too late to edit...

That should read "32.50/(1-20%) = $40.625


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## Chris Rigsby

JMHConstruction said:


> Since it's too late to edit...
> 
> That should read "32.50/(1-20%) = $40.625


Ok Thumbs Up


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## sota

Jmc did it perfectly


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## Chris Rigsby

sota said:


> Jmc did it perfectly


He's a pretty smart guy then


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## quigleysiding

Great thread should make it a sticky in the bid and estamate. Forum


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## Chris Rigsby

Anybody know of any good threads like mine on this website?


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## LockedUP

Good grief he wanted to know how much to charge. It ain't that hard. At least where I'm at. $25 minimum just to show up at someones house.
Some are $30 some are $35. One is $50...One is $150 to $300 depending on how much snow...basically I make $150 per hour. All my jobs are close by. I wont drive far. Been doing it for 25 years..


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## Mark Oomkes

LockedUP said:


> Good grief he wanted to know how much to charge. It ain't that hard. At least where I'm at. $25 minimum just to show up at someones house.
> Some are $30 some are $35. One is $50...One is $150 to $300 depending on how much snow...basically I make $150 per hour. All my jobs are close by. I wont drive far. Been doing it for 25 years..


That's awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Problem is, by me those prices will see you staying in bed.

That's why no one is giving him an actual price. Because it varies by region, by competition, by insurance costs, by one's desired profit margin, by what the market can bear. There is NO simple answer.

I would think after 25 years you would know this.


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## LockedUP

I live in a low income area. That being said we are rural and we get snowed on quite a bit. I'm a little low on price compared to my competition. My customers are loyal. January for example most of my customers had to shell out $300 . We had crazy
Snow. Last month was $200 or so. Dec was nada. 
The trick is not to drive too far and be fair. 4 to 5 hours I'm done. 23 customers. I don't care where you live $25 is about the minimum and goes up from there. They can buy a snowblower if they want. Lol


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## tpendagast

I know a guy (not saying this is common) who gets an annual retainer from his driveways.
$250 up front and $150 a month to stay on his “prriority list” wether it snows or not. 
PLUS a $40 minimum. 

If you’re not on the priority list he might plow you if you call, he might not ... maybe if he feels like it.

Apparently in his neck of the woods people with plows are super unreliable and if you have a big need for reliability that’s what it’s going to cost. 

That’s the way it SHOULD be in my opinion... but all it takes is someone who thinks it would be fun to do, lives at home with parents or rich wife/girl friend that carries is Xbox and Cheetos habit and supports the idea of him doing something with his time.
Goes and buys shiny new truck and plow and poof.... business model is trashed and “loyal customers” are jumping at Johnny side jobs $25 prices. 
Johnny thinks he’s doing good business because he “makes $700” every time it snows... sugar momma pays for the truck and the gas ... so it’s “pocket money” for him. 
It snows 30 times that year and he gets 21 grand which is more than he made in any year in his life and he thinks he’s a hard working genius. 
Same thing happens with retired guys.
Went into the military at 20, get out at 44... pension and benefits carry you ... wife has a job...poof “hobby business” 
This is why most areas are “ruined” for driveway pricing.


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## Chris Rigsby

LockedUP said:


> Good grief he wanted to know how much to charge. It ain't that hard. At least where I'm at. $25 minimum just to show up at someones house.
> Some are $30 some are $35. One is $50...One is $150 to $300 depending on how much snow...basically I make $150 per hour. All my jobs are close by. I wont drive far. Been doing it for 25 years..


Thanks for th your reply! :waving:Thumbs Up


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## Mark Oomkes

Chris Rigsby said:


> Thanks for th your reply! :waving:Thumbs Up


What if your costs require you to charge $45 a driveway? And you charge $25?

What if the going rate in your area is $15 a driveway? And you try charging $25?


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## Chris Rigsby

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if your costs require you to charge $45 a driveway? And you charge $25?
> 
> What if the going rate in your area is $15 a driveway? And you try charging $25?


You know what? I never actually looked at that really so I'm not really sure?


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## Chris Rigsby

HomeAdvisor says anywhere from $50-$300 for snow removal on sidewalks, driveways, and roofs


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## tpendagast

Chris Rigsby said:


> HomeAdvisor says anywhere from $50-$300 for snow removal on sidewalks, driveways, and roofs


Home advisor doesn't know what it's even polling for 
Does your truck go on the roof?
No
Different category of work 
A roofing company might clear snow off a roof 
But not do the parking lot /driveway

A plow company might clear the asphalt but not the roof

Residential roofs with a pitch need special safety equipment and typically different insurance (never mind training) 
Not to mention what do you do with all the snow once it's off the roof?

Clearing snow from a roof is never 2-4"
It's typically multi layered feet...
I've never seen anyone do it for $300

This is one of the main reasons I always say go work for someome else for a few years so you understand the work first.

Everything a contractor does involes risk 
You risk not having enough work to cover your costs/over head 
You risk not getting return on your investment 
You risk injury 
You risk damage and liability 
Everything you do from the minute you decide to do work involves risking your money and the ability to make more.

Any smart gambler is going to expect a reasonable chance of a return of 3 to 10 times his money he is risking.

That's what business is... gambling.
And every new guy with no experience that jumps on with no clue ruins the odds even more

Not to mention the growing population of people under 35 think "profit" is a bad word and they're somehow entitled to everything at or below cost.
Throw in all the old people who cry "fixed income" 
Which I never understand WHAT that means... if you get paid a salary isn't that fixed income? 
So don't most people have fixed income their whole lives? 
My pricing is somehow tied to your retirement plan??

When you understand the work and have a modicum of experience; you'll most likely have a better idea of how to price because you'll know something about the time, effort and costs you are risking.
A one night ride a long isn't enough to know any of that


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## JMHConstruction

Throw home advisers numbers out the window. Theirs "costs" are a joke! That is for anything you do.

Mark's response:


Mark Oomkes said:


> What if your costs require you to charge $45 a driveway? And you charge $25?
> 
> What if the going rate in your area is $15 a driveway? And you try charging $25?


Is what you need to pay attention to. Find your numbers and what it costs you per hour to preform work


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## JMHConstruction

tpendagast said:


> Home advisor doesn't know what it's even polling for
> Does your truck go on the roof?
> No
> Different category of work
> A roofing company might clear snow off a roof
> But not do the parking lot /driveway
> 
> A plow company might clear the asphalt but not the roof
> 
> Residential roofs with a pitch need special safety equipment and typically different insurance (never mind training)
> Not to mention what do you do with all the snow once it's off the roof?
> 
> Clearing snow from a roof is never 2-4"
> It's typically multi layered feet...
> I've never seen anyone do it for $300
> 
> This is one of the main reasons I always say go work for someome else for a few years so you understand the work first.
> 
> Everything a contractor does involes risk
> You risk not having enough work to cover your costs/over head
> You risk not getting return on your investment
> You risk injury
> You risk damage and liability
> Everything you do from the minute you decide to do work involves risking your money and the ability to make more.
> 
> Any smart gambler is going to expect a reasonable chance of a return of 3 to 10 times his money he is risking.
> 
> That's what business is... gambling.
> And every new guy with no experience that jumps on with no clue ruins the odds even more
> 
> Not to mention the growing population of people under 35 think "profit" is a bad word and they're somehow entitled to everything at or below cost.
> Throw in all the old people who cry "fixed income"
> Which I never understand WHAT that means... if you get paid a salary isn't that fixed income?
> So don't most people have fixed income their whole lives?
> My pricing is somehow tied to your retirement plan??
> 
> When you understand the work and have a modicum of experience; you'll most likely have a better idea of how to price because you'll know something about the time, effort and costs you are risking.
> A one night ride a long isn't enough to know any of that


Double like


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## Chris Rigsby

JMHConstruction said:


> Throw home advisers numbers out the window. Theirs "costs" are a joke! That is for anything you do.
> 
> Mark's response:
> 
> Is what you need to pay attention to. Find your numbers and what it costs you per hour to preform work


Got it thanks!


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## Chris Rigsby

tpendagast said:


> Home advisor doesn't know what it's even polling for
> Does your truck go on the roof?
> No
> Different category of work
> A roofing company might clear snow off a roof
> But not do the parking lot /driveway
> 
> A plow company might clear the asphalt but not the roof
> 
> Residential roofs with a pitch need special safety equipment and typically different insurance (never mind training)
> Not to mention what do you do with all the snow once it's off the roof?
> 
> Clearing snow from a roof is never 2-4"
> It's typically multi layered feet...
> I've never seen anyone do it for $300
> 
> This is one of the main reasons I always say go work for someome else for a few years so you understand the work first.
> 
> Everything a contractor does involes risk
> You risk not having enough work to cover your costs/over head
> You risk not getting return on your investment
> You risk injury
> You risk damage and liability
> Everything you do from the minute you decide to do work involves risking your money and the ability to make more.
> 
> Any smart gambler is going to expect a reasonable chance of a return of 3 to 10 times his money he is risking.
> 
> That's what business is... gambling.
> And every new guy with no experience that jumps on with no clue ruins the odds even more
> 
> Not to mention the growing population of people under 35 think "profit" is a bad word and they're somehow entitled to everything at or below cost.
> Throw in all the old people who cry "fixed income"
> Which I never understand WHAT that means... if you get paid a salary isn't that fixed income?
> So don't most people have fixed income their whole lives?
> My pricing is somehow tied to your retirement plan??
> 
> When you understand the work and have a modicum of experience; you'll most likely have a better idea of how to price because you'll know something about the time, effort and costs you are risking.
> A one night ride a long isn't enough to know any of that


Ok


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## jonniesmooth

Randall Ave said:


> One thing you have to do is come up with a minimum price. But this is in direct relation to your area.


From MN here, we don't take any new accounts for less then $30. $30 gets you up to 15 min. Allowing for drive time between accounts, we can still get nearly $100/ hr.
Many of them are <10 min so can get 4-5 in an hour.


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## sota

I spend a lot effort logging my times on site, so I can say that, for example, this last storm I was out (door-to-door) 6.5 hours, with an actual on-site time of 4.25 hours. that means I had a slack/wasted time of 2.25 hours; mostly transit time but there was a lunch/break in there as well at 0.5 hours.


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## tpendagast

sota said:


> I spend a lot effort logging my times on site, so I can say that, for example, this last storm I was out (door-to-door) 6.5 hours, with an actual on-site time of 4.25 hours. that means I had a slack/wasted time of 2.25 hours; mostly transit time but there was a lunch/break in there as well at 0.5 hours.


How much do you get for a driveway?
What are you averaging per hour (including door to door)?
Just curious.

Door to door is what matters because that's how you would pay an employee to do it.


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## sota

since I'm doing this for someone else, I get paid $70/hr, D2D.


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## LockedUP

Majority of my customers are within a 1 mile circle. That way I can be quick. It's taken years to get my route like that. The $25 minimum is even for a 20 ft drive One back drag 3 mins max. The min is just to show up. When I'm done I wash the truck outside put away in my heated garage.. dry and clean turn on the dehumidifier . Try washing w/hot water at 0 deg f Fun lol.


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## Mark Oomkes

3 minutes is pretty long to do a driveway.


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## tpendagast

Mark Oomkes said:


> 3 minutes is pretty long to do a driveway.


I've got some on "live roads" 
Just trying to back up a few times to push the pile left/right of the drive way seems to "take forever"... it seems 5-8 minutes is forever... but OMG! I lose my mind if I ever have to do that route.


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## Mr.Markus

Most of my driveways are +10 minutes.
We might need to define driveway..


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## sota

I've got some I'm seriously thinking might be faster to shovel, just because of complexity.


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## sota

that thing... I hate it. seems like the majority of my jobs have complexities.


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## jonniesmooth

sota said:


> I've got some I'm seriously thinking might be faster to shovel, just because of complexity.


Right tool for the job is the key. 4' snow plow shovel and +/-2" most of my residential accounts can be shoveled by hand in <20 minutes many <10. My sub is getting better with the tractor. Now our banks are so high shoveling is out of the question.
We have used a " pre shovel" plan that works very well. It's not a new concept, we didn't invent the wheel here. Just took the idea of smaller equipment moving snow from confined areas to where a loader can get it.
The shoveler goes out about an hour ahead of the tractor, he does the small walks and shovels away from the garage doors. If it's about 2" he will push the entire drive to one side, so when the tractor comes he only makes 1 or 2 passes instead of the whole drive.


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## Mr.Markus

This builder was whacked...


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## LockedUP

One drive I do is 1/8 mile. 800 ft is on a class 4 road that is a snowmobile trail also. When it gets packed by the groomer I have to back up/hill as far as I can get and plow down hill. Real pia. Took over 2 hours the other day. Charged him $300. He lives in Boston I take care of the property . Time before it was like $600. Had to have a tracked ranger to Bust it first. Had to get fuel up there. Sand etc


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## PLOWMAN45

my minimum is at least 50.00 and goes up


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## LockedUP

I'm from ct. Moved to vt in 92. $50 sound right. Enjoy the snow tonight.


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## Jacobmb

With shoveling and salting we average about five to seven houses per hour


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## PLOWMAN45

I try not to shovel or salt are your accounts near each other i


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## Jacobmb

PLOWMAN45 said:


> I try not to shovel or salt are your accounts near each other i


Every other guy around here has a truck with a snow plow on it. You can find seasonal contracts for snow removal around the $300 mark. These are guys who scrape and go and offer no shoveling or salting and will not answer any phone calls during or after the storm. I'm charging nearly double that for the premium of providing salting and shoveling. Yes a lot of my houses are close together in subdivisions.


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## PLOWMAN45

I will salt or shovel way more money


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## Mr.Markus

PLOWMAN45 said:


> I try not to shovel or salt are your accounts near each other i





PLOWMAN45 said:


> I will salt or shovel way more money


Now that you've cleared that up, he should be good to go...


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## PLOWMAN45

Mr.Markus said:


> Now that you've cleared that up, he should be good to go...


I guess you got your post we can all sleep


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## Mark Oomkes

PLOWMAN45 said:


> I guess you got your post we can all laugh


Agreed


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## Jake's Lawn and Snow

JMHConstruction said:


> NJ has the highest rates for insurance that I've seen. In most places, if you charge what he is charging you won't get much if any work.
> 
> Here is a very basic way to figure out what YOU need to charge to make money. Hopefully other new guys will see this as well..
> 
> Sit down and figure out your costs. Call around to a few insurance companies. Find out what it costs to get general liability insurance for snow removal (I personally have 2 mil coverage, which is pretty standard around here), and to get your truck a commercial auto policy. If you plan on hiring anyone, look into a work comp policy as well. Figure out how much it will cost in fuel to run your truck per storm. How much time you will spend doing paperwork, maintenance, and other "non-plowing" work. What you maintenance costs will be. Everything you will have to do, and every penny you will spend needs to be figured out (best guess since you have no experience or numbers to go by). Then after you have your costs.
> 
> Then find out what your average snowfall total is for your area. If available, look even further at how the storms are broken down. Divide that by your plowing trigger. That is a ROUGH number of how many times in a given year you will go out and plow.
> 
> Take your total operating costs and divide that by your number of plowable events. Then add in your personal hourly earnings to the specific job. That is what you need to break even. If you salt or use deicing products, add what is needed to the specific job as well, along with any markup on the product. Add a profit, and you have your final price.
> 
> Example with very rough, easy numbers, assuming every driveway is the same...
> 40" per year / 2" trigger = 20 plowable events
> Say you need $10,000 to cover your winter overhead (no one knows this number but you).
> 10,000/20 = 500. You need to make minimum $500 per storm to cover your overhead.
> If you can get 25 driveways -- 500/25 = $20 per driveway to cover your overhead.
> If each driveway takes your 20 minutes... 60(minutes in an hour)/20 = 4 driveways per hour.
> 25(driveways per storm)/4 = 6.25 hours in your route.
> Say you want to make $50 per hour plowing.
> 50/4(driveways per hour) = $12.50 per driveway in labor costs
> That means your break even cost per driveway is 20+12.50 = $32.50
> Next add your profit MARGIN (margin = cost/(1-profit percentage)). Let's say 20% progit
> 32.50/(1-20) = $40.625 (let's round it up to $41)
> 
> That is what you need to make per driveway to make a profit, and that is why no company and use another companies numbers, they will never be the same.
> 
> Then after all that, you have to see if your market will ever allow you to charge that. If the market won't bare it, you have to either figure out how to be more efficient or just stay inside where it's warm. Never drop what you need to make per hour to stay "competitive." There is no point in running a business if you're just going to lose money.


This was incredibly helpful to me. Thank you.
Does anyone just plow residential and maybe salt the driveway, and not so sidewalks?


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## theplowmeister

I plow, no shoveling, rarely salt or sand.


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## Jake's Lawn and Snow

JMHConstruction said:


> NJ has the highest rates for insurance that I've seen. In most places, if you charge what he is charging you won't get much if any work.
> 
> Here is a very basic way to figure out what YOU need to charge to make money. Hopefully other new guys will see this as well..
> 
> Sit down and figure out your costs. Call around to a few insurance companies. Find out what it costs to get general liability insurance for snow removal (I personally have 2 mil coverage, which is pretty standard around here), and to get your truck a commercial auto policy. If you plan on hiring anyone, look into a work comp policy as well. Figure out how much it will cost in fuel to run your truck per storm. How much time you will spend doing paperwork, maintenance, and other "non-plowing" work. What you maintenance costs will be. Everything you will have to do, and every penny you will spend needs to be figured out (best guess since you have no experience or numbers to go by). Then after you have your costs.
> 
> Then find out what your average snowfall total is for your area. If available, look even further at how the storms are broken down. Divide that by your plowing trigger. That is a ROUGH number of how many times in a given year you will go out and plow.
> 
> Take your total operating costs and divide that by your number of plowable events. Then add in your personal hourly earnings to the specific job. That is what you need to break even. If you salt or use deicing products, add what is needed to the specific job as well, along with any markup on the product. Add a profit, and you have your final price.
> 
> Example with very rough, easy numbers, assuming every driveway is the same...
> 40" per year / 2" trigger = 20 plowable events
> Say you need $10,000 to cover your winter overhead (no one knows this number but you).
> 10,000/20 = 500. You need to make minimum $500 per storm to cover your overhead.
> If you can get 25 driveways -- 500/25 = $20 per driveway to cover your overhead.
> If each driveway takes your 20 minutes... 60(minutes in an hour)/20 = 4 driveways per hour.
> 25(driveways per storm)/4 = 6.25 hours in your route.
> Say you want to make $50 per hour plowing.
> 50/4(driveways per hour) = $12.50 per driveway in labor costs
> That means your break even cost per driveway is 20+12.50 = $32.50
> Next add your profit MARGIN (margin = cost/(1-profit percentage)). Let's say 20% progit
> 32.50/(1-20) = $40.625 (let's round it up to $41)
> 
> That is what you need to make per driveway to make a profit, and that is why no company and use another companies numbers, they will never be the same.
> 
> Then after all that, you have to see if your market will ever allow you to charge that. If the market won't bare it, you have to either figure out how to be more efficient or just stay inside where it's warm. Never drop what you need to make per hour to stay "competitive." There is no point in running a business if you're just going to lose money.


Only question I have is this.
"That means your break even cost per driveway is 20+12.50 = $32.50"
What is the 20?


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## Jake's Lawn and Snow

Is that your per driveway amount?


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## jonniesmooth

this is where the "20" comes from
Say you need $10,000 to cover your winter overhead (no one knows this number but you).
10,000/20 = 500. You need to make minimum $500 per storm to cover your overhead.
If you can get 25 driveways -- 500/25 = $20 per driveway to cover your overhead.
If each driveway takes your 20 minutes... 60(minutes in an hour)/20 = 4 driveways per hour.
25(driveways per storm)/4 = 6.25 hours in your route

but his numbers are off at 20 minutes/drive you can only do 3 an hour, not 4, so that's 8.33 hours to do the route

yes the 20=12.50 or $32.50 is the break even. I also calculated the 1/20 profit to be $39, not $41, but why would you want to go down? It's plowing,we're dealing in round numbers. From this you would want to be at $45 minimum for a 2" push to allow for drive time,coffee breaks etc.


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## Jake's Lawn and Snow

jonniesmooth said:


> this is where the "20" comes from
> Say you need $10,000 to cover your winter overhead (no one knows this number but you).
> 10,000/20 = 500. You need to make minimum $500 per storm to cover your overhead.
> If you can get 25 driveways -- 500/25 = $20 per driveway to cover your overhead.
> If each driveway takes your 20 minutes... 60(minutes in an hour)/20 = 4 driveways per hour.
> 25(driveways per storm)/4 = 6.25 hours in your route
> 
> but his numbers are off at 20 minutes/drive you can only do 3 an hour, not 4, so that's 8.33 hours to do the route
> 
> yes the 20=12.50 or $32.50 is the break even. I also calculated the 1/20 profit to be $39, not $41, but why would you want to go down? It's plowing,we're dealing in round numbers. From this you would want to be at $45 minimum for a 2" push to allow for drive time,coffee breaks etc.


Thanks.
If I advertise for 3 small villages 5 miles apart, I'm in the middle one, 2 is 5 miles west and 3 is 5 miles east.
If I get a nice tight route in 1 of them I should be able to do more than 4 an hour if I'm just plowing.


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## EWSplow

Jake's Lawn and Snow said:


> Thanks.
> If I advertise for 3 small villages 5 miles apart, I'm in the middle one, 2 is 5 miles west and 3 is 5 miles east.
> If I get a nice tight route in 1 of them I should be able to do more than 4 an hour if I'm just plowing.


You don't want your normal 2" route to run more than 6 hours, so you can make a second round before too much snow builds up on longer duration events.


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## Jake's Lawn and Snow

EWSplow said:


> You don't want your normal 2" route to run more than 6 hours, so you can make a second round before too much snow builds up on longer duration events.


When you say 2" rout, you're talking about a 2" trigger right?
In Madison, most of the companies have a 1" trigger but most big companies dont do residential. In Black Earth 30 minutes west of Madison a few small time companies have 1" triggers for residential.
I understand needing to go back, which brings me to another question.
If all I'm gonna do are residential driveways, with a 1" or 2" trigger, and after I've done the math to figure out the pricing based on what the other person said. Do I charge that price per push or per event? If it's only a few inches, I'd wait until the end of the storm and go out unless it's an early morning storm and people need to get out of their driveways.
If it's a bigger storm, I understand cutting it in half and doing it twice. What is that number? 6 inches or more go back? 3 inches?


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## EWSplow

Jake's Lawn and Snow said:


> When you say 2" rout, you're talking about a 2" trigger right?
> In Madison, most of the companies have a 1" trigger but most big companies dont do residential. In Black Earth 30 minutes west of Madison a few small time companies have 1" triggers for residential.
> I understand needing to go back, which brings me to another question.
> If all I'm gonna do are residential driveways, with a 1" or 2" trigger, and after I've done the math to figure out the pricing based on what the other person said. Do I charge that price per push or per event? If it's only a few inches, I'd wait until the end of the storm and go out unless it's an early morning storm and people need to get out of their driveways.
> If it's a bigger storm, I understand cutting it in half and doing it twice. What is that number? 6 inches or more go back? 3 inches?


I meant a normal 2" snowfall. 
If you charge per push, its per push, even if its 3 times in a day. 
On residential you are correct, sometimes, you would only do it once when you would have done a commercial twice. 
On residential we usually do drivers so people can get out to work and do them again, so they can get home if it continues to snow. 
I only have a couple places with 2" triggers, most are 1". The 2" ones are old, haven't signed a new client for 2" trigger for probably 8 years, or more.


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## JMHConstruction

Jake's Lawn and Snow said:


> Only question I have is this.
> "That means your break even cost per driveway is 20+12.50 = $32.50"
> What is the 20?


Looks like @jonniesmooth already answered this, but see below.


JMHConstruction said:


> 40" per year / 2" trigger = 20 plowable events
> Say you need $10,000 to cover your winter overhead (no one knows this number but you).
> 10,000/20 = 500. You need to make minimum $500 per storm to cover your overhead.
> If you can get 25 driveways -- 500/25 = $20 per driveway to cover your overhead.


So, that $20 comes from this


JMHConstruction said:


> $20 per driveway to cover your overhead.


As far as this:


jonniesmooth said:


> also calculated the 1/20 profit to be $39, not $41,


You're getting into markup vs margin
For example, with my decking business, I operate under 40% margins, which comes to 67% markup.

If a deck costs me 10,000 to build, I charge $16,700 (rounded up from $16,666.67)
If I just marked it up 40%, it would only come to $14,000, and only give me 29% margins.

Edit: I'll also add that the 40% margins are gross margins, and also covers my overhead.


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## Mark Oomkes

EWSplow said:


> If you charge per push, its per push, even if its 3 times in a day.


What if it's 12 times in 1 day?


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## JMHConstruction

Jake's Lawn and Snow said:


> This was incredibly helpful to me. Thank you.
> Does anyone just plow residential and maybe salt the driveway, and not so sidewalks?


That was all just pure example numbers, so don't copy the numbers. You'll have to find your own break even costs, and also determine the time it will take for each drive (most aren't all the same like in the example).

Best of luck to you. You found a great source for gathering advice, here on plowsite!


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## JMHConstruction

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if it's 12 times in 1 day?


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## Jake's Lawn and Snow

JMHConstruction said:


> That was all just pure example numbers, so don't copy the numbers. You'll have to find your own break even costs, and also determine the time it will take for each drive (most aren't all the same like in the example).
> 
> Best of luck to you. You found a great source for gathering advice, here on plowsite!


Thank you, I understand.
I copied and pasted it and customized it with my own numbers. I have everything I need from this thread.
Thank you everyone. You've been most helpful.


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## EWSplow

Mark Oomkes said:


> What if it's 12 times in 1 day?


Is it February 2nd..............................again?


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## jato

tpendagast said:


> How much do you get for a driveway?
> What are you averaging per hour (including door to door)?
> Just curious.
> 
> Door to door is what matters because that's how you would pay an employee to do it.


Nah, no d2d if you're on P4P.


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## Mr.Markus

JMHConstruction said:


> The old lady next door paid me in cookies last weekend


If you keep at it and do a god job one day you'll make whole tins of cookies...


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## Mark Oomkes

jato said:


> Nah, no d2d if you're on P4P.


I have no idea what this means.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc.

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have no idea what this means.


I'm going with no door to door if you're on pay for plow (which still doesn't really make sense)


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## Mr.Markus

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have no idea what this means.


Commodore 64 ps3...?


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc.

Mr.Markus said:


> Commodore 64 ps3...?


Load"$" , 8


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## Mr.Markus

SKWPB


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## BossPlow2010

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have no idea what this means.


It means; no d2d if you're on P4P....

Duh.


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## Mark Oomkes

BossPlow2010 said:


> It means; no d2d if you're on P4P....
> 
> Duh.


SKWBE


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## sota

Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the PC on the QT? 'Cause if it leaks to the VC he could end up MIA, and then we'd all be put on KP.


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## jonniesmooth

sota said:


> Seeing as how the VP is such a VIP, shouldn't we keep the PC on the QT? 'Cause if it leaks to the VC he could end up MIA, and then we'd all be put on KP.


My first date we went to Good Morning Viet Nam. 1987


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## Randall Ave

jonniesmooth said:


> My first date we went to Good Morning Viet Nam. 1987


I remember 1987, was out of high school for 11 years. Just starting to date the wife, I think. Had an old Jeep with a 6 ft fisher welded to it, no heat, wipers worked, sometimes. And thats when it actually snowed here.


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## EWSplow

Randall Ave said:


> I remember 1987, was out of high school for 11 years. Just starting to date the wife, I think. Had an old Jeep with a 6 ft fisher welded to it, no heat, wipers worked, sometimes. And thats when it actually snowed here.


33 years later and I'm not too much more advanced...


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## Randall Ave

EWSplow said:


> 33 years later and I'm not too much more advanced...


Hey, my new to me truck when its done will be 21 years old, it will be old enough to drink Heinekins on its own.


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## sota

jonniesmooth said:


> My first date we went to Good Morning Viet Nam. 1987


last movie my father and I ever saw together.


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