# Ferrandino&son Inc.



## greensweep (Sep 22, 2010)

Has anyone worked for this company and what was your experience with them???


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## CGLC (Dec 1, 2004)

Horrible stay away!!!!!! You assume 100% liability for any possible thing that could go wrong and they are horrible at paying out if they pay at all.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Typical National....They're all the same, all liability is on you, very low pay, slow pay, clauses in the one sided contract to screw the contractor any which way they can...... Don't believe me? Try them and be the judge for yourself but don't came back here whinning when things don't go your way.


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## PapaSnowPlow (Mar 7, 2011)

If they are never onsite performing the service, why should they be liable for anything bad that happens?


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

PapaSnowPlow;1264996 said:


> If they are never onsite performing the service, why should they be liable for anything bad that happens?


Because they're the ones who procured the contract.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

PapaSnowPlow;1264996 said:


> If they are never onsite performing the service, why should they be liable for anything bad that happens?


Should the sub contractor who signed with Fer&son be liable when someone slips and falls on wet leaves even before the first snow fell? Going by their contract YOU are 100% liable for ANYTHING that might happen.....


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

PapaSnowPlow;1264996 said:


> If they are never onsite performing the service, why should they be liable for anything bad that happens?


I can totally understand the management company agreeing with you, but you have to look at the big picture. Not only does the contract say you are liable, it also says you have to pay to defend the property owner, the business operating on that property, the managment company, as well as yourself. So if thats waht they want, they should pay for that. Instead they keep 40 to 50% of the premium service they charge and only pay out 50 to 60% to the guy who is supposed to assume 100% of the liability. Then they take 4 to 5 months after all the plows are put away to pay you. Furthermore if you sign that contract, and someone gets into an accident on the property, say two cars run into each other by no fault of any snow or ice at all, you can still be named in the lawsuit, and have to pay to defend all parties involved. Just because you have a contract that states you will. So after my rant, I have to argue the point that even if they are never on site preforming any work at all, they should still be held liable if they hold the contract.


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## CHPL (Oct 26, 2003)

We have done work for them. Typically we are paid after 60 days of submitting the invoice. We fill out the form at each service go in have the manager on duty sign it. With in a day after the event we make our invoice, fax in a copy of the invoice and service forms. Then mail in the originals.


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## AJ Watson (Jan 15, 2006)

We are still owed a ton of money by ferrandino and sons. Dont trust them you will get burned.
They pay really slow and the pay is really low.


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

Do you mean money from snow approaching a year ago?


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

We did our work per the scope at our price and got paid on time and will again for the term of our contract with them. What we do is a large corporate center. Plus, when 4" inches of ice fell last year and every other contractor they had hired, failed in our market and they were all hired at Ferandino's prices they called who? They called us because we hadn't failed and they in turn had a mess so they paid us our price to bail them out at over 40 bank locations and we were paid in full in the terms on contract. Again, we performed and we get our price. 

Also, the contract we have says nothing to the effect of 100% liability for anything as other mention. You are liable to do a best faith effort to provide a safe facility within the scope during inclement weather, this is our job as snow and ice removal companies nothing out of the ordinary unless you do HOA's or driveways. They called us on the bank locations last week, and we indicated that they know our price and we can't do them for less the person in charge of all of them has since called us since we bailed them out, so not all doom and gloom. They just want the job done right, in a timely fashion and they have to make money too. Not the best equation but it is an equation that works, all over this site I hear and read about bad experiences and people talking about how bad the national companies are and how bad they are to work for, etc., bottom line with the exception of "1" un-named company they all are legitimate businesses with a model that works well for companies to have a single point of contact and then it gets subbed down from there. You need to be educated on how to deal with them so you can get the profit you need out of them in order to work as a partner with them. If you perform work for the terms and conditions YOU agreed to with them they are going to compensate you the AGREED upon dollar amounts within the terms YOU again agreed to.

I'm sick of reading about how bad these companies are when contractors who have the bad experience obviously did not properly read the contracts properly or didn't do the work per the scope so they haven't been paid. Who's fault is it really? The CONTRACTOR, or in most of these cases the person who has time to post on here about how bad these companies are and how they haven't been paid, maybe do work right the first time and you would have been paid...with any story I'm sure there is (2) sides and I'm guessing based on our expereiences that the other side would make the CONTRACTOR/COMPLAINERS looking bad not the national. 

In fact, I'm sure the other contrators that were servicing the bank branches as we were called to the rescue 2 days after a 4" inch ice storm, weren't paid. At many locations our salt trucks, hand crews and plow trucks had confrontations from other contrators who were hired to take care of the sights until we were called to the rescue. Our guys were instructed to say they know nothing and were called to fix the work that wasn't performed and roll up window, so maybe some of the complainers are the won's that failed in their market or aren't a true professional knowing how, when and have experience to make good snow and ice management techniques...just my $0.02 worth.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

mullis56;1309414 said:


> We did our work per the scope at our price and got paid on time and will again for the term of our contract with them. What we do is a large corporate center. Plus, when 4" inches of ice fell last year and every other contractor they had hired, failed in our market and they were all hired at Ferandino's prices they called who? They called us because we hadn't failed and they in turn had a mess so they paid us our price to bail them out at over 40 bank locations and we were paid in full in the terms on contract. Again, we performed and we get our price.
> 
> Also, the contract we have says nothing to the effect of 100% liability for anything as other mention. You are liable to do a best faith effort to provide a safe facility within the scope during inclement weather, this is our job as snow and ice removal companies nothing out of the ordinary unless you do HOA's or driveways. They called us on the bank locations last week, and we indicated that they know our price and we can't do them for less the person in charge of all of them has since called us since we bailed them out, so not all doom and gloom. They just want the job done right, in a timely fashion and they have to make money too. Not the best equation but it is an equation that works, all over this site I hear and read about bad experiences and people talking about how bad the national companies are and how bad they are to work for, etc., bottom line with the exception of "1" un-named company they all are legitimate businesses with a model that works well for companies to have a single point of contact and then it gets subbed down from there. You need to be educated on how to deal with them so you can get the profit you need out of them in order to work as a partner with them. If you perform work for the terms and conditions YOU agreed to with them they are going to compensate you the AGREED upon dollar amounts within the terms YOU again agreed to.
> 
> ...


Very Well said....:salute:

I applaud you for Posting a Positve Experience about a Company.....To many times all we read is the Negitive Crap........Thumbs Up


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

Wow 4 inches of ice ? Were in the snowbelt but we get 3/4 inches & there are bigger issues than parking lots being plowed (like no power, as the broken trees took out the lines). How do you deal with 4 inches of ice?


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## snownice (Oct 15, 2010)

Stay away from them......


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

RLM;1309424 said:


> Wow 4 inches of ice ? Were in the snowbelt but we get 3/4 inches & there are bigger issues than parking lots being plowed (like no power, as the broken trees took out the lines). How do you deal with 4 inches of ice?


4" of sleet/ice/freezing rain. Lots of broken power lines where there was less sleet just south of us. It wasn't easy to deal with but we dealt with it. It was like an inch at a time on walks...your in the snowbelt...were in the belt where we get lots of ice/sleet/freezing rain so we are a little more used to it...I can say this it was worse then 17" inches of snow which is the largest we've experienced in 16 years of business.


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## affekonig (Aug 5, 2008)

I'd guess that Mullis is on to something. I doubt that most of the national maintenance companies are out to "screw" anybody, in fact, I'd guess it's the opposite. They would probably like to treat their contractors well, and they probably treat the ones that agree to and follow the contract pretty well. Sure, they're a business and are going to require paperwork, and it's probably not to screw the contractor, but to keep accurate records and protect themselves. Also, isn't the liability and non-payment risk a exactly the same whether going through a national or not? Also, these companies are doing a lot of work and deserve a cut. They employ professionals to gather contracts, hire and coordinate contractors, etc. and that's worth something. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan and supporter of small business (I don't shop at WalMart, do you?), but there are other sides to this constant argument.


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## affekonig (Aug 5, 2008)

So I just read another thread on here immediately after writing the above comment. The thread contains an example of a theory I have on why the nationals do well: Professionalism. I read that thread and think about being the business accepting and reviewing bids. Should I go with the well-written, professional bid from a big company like mine, or should I go with the guy that can't seem to get two coherent sentences together? 

Again, I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but it's food for thought. I'm sure there are plenty of smaller, very professional companies out there. Tear me a new one.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

This is turning into a good thread with some rational thinking. Scary. Unfortunately the national companies aren't going anywhere. A lot of the big box stores, or chains be it restaraunts, department stores, banks, tires, etc. don't even take bids in store anymore, and corporate only wants pricing from someone who will take on the responsibility of XX% of their stores. For us, not a huge company by any means, but we run a pretty good show, the national scene has to play somewhat into what we do. We've been doing landscape maintenance for one since july 1st, and have yet to be payed, they haven't been payed by their customer, will we get paid? Yes, I'm certain we will. All of our eggs aren't in that basket, unfortunately look around, more and more sites are being handled through a national company. If you find the right ones, which we work for two who are awesome payers, on time, and pay more than a lot of other customers, but yes, you need to be professional, and you need to be able to do paperwork.....rant over.


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

The below is very well said. We don't have all of our eggs in one basket and the right companies have to play into what we do to be our size, and as stated these companies are not going anywhere. The ideaology of them being them being the best place to work for or the cure-all are wrong, I think on this site most of the negative experiences and rants about these types of companies are from companies/individuals who agreed to something that they were not clear on or where unsure of and then complain for not getting paid. As I stated before, guys complain are the ones who don't know what they are doing say and they go around saying, "...sure I'll do the Target for all inclusive seasonal for $11,000..," then brags about it to his friends and family not knowing what he has really gotten into and then all of a sudden the worst winter comes. Then one of the 3 trucks he has breaks, salt prices go up and his electric motor goes out on the tailgate salter. It is at this time he realizes he can't do it any longer and that he has been losing money all along, and then he comes onto sites like this and complain about how he hates nationals.

Who's fault is it really? I think it is a combination of things, the management company is making okay money on the property, but in the case of big box retailers they are bid cheaply anyway, so they had to find someone cheap to get the site covered and still have some margin. In order to make up for the cheap bid they had to get the location they hired someone who isn't experienced or knowledgeable to handle a contract or site like this, doesn't have proper equipment and then had isssues at this point he (contractor) figured out he wasn't making money so he bailed on the project and again loses more money for not holding up his contractual obligation so he hates nationals. So who is to blame in your opinoin?

This brings up a funny store about a more regionalized management company, they took an account we had for (2) years and the property owners, property manager told them they should use us on the new flat rate seasonal contracts. We submitted our bid for the 3-year contract, $175,000 per year. They hired someone for $63,700, we had an okay year for the first year lots of issues for them on every snowfall so we heard. During the summer of the 2nd season, we were again contacted about submitted more competitive numbers on the sites and that they maybe extending it to a 5 year contract or adding 2 more years to the 2 years remaining on the contract. Our revised bid, $175,000 annually. During the 2nd year of the contract I strolled through one of the four sites during a salt only event and see that the $63,700 contractor is making hay, they are only salting store fronts, and putting themselves at huge risk. Fast forward to the 4" inch ice/sleet/freezing rain storm, we get a call for the $63,700 contractor asking if we could salt the property at 2am, we didn't do it as we knew we had little to no chance of getting paid plus we realized they hadn't done anything to the sight except salt one time, and we had to plow and chip away to clear things during this storm we had. They were expecting salt to melt this away, comical. So this storm was on a Monday and Tuesday in 2 different waves, then on Saturday we had a 6" snowfall. After the snowfall stopped Saturday afternoon the regional management company calls and asks if we can help. We told them we were called to salt away the 4" inches and they indicated that they still had done nothing on the property. We agree Time/Material for all (4) properties and then go to work for a few days to get them under control, and bill them over $70K for this. I'm talking 6" inches of snow on top of 4" inches of ice on the walks at these places. So we get paid for this work and then again this summer they come to us for revised numbers on the sight with a 1 year contract with a right to extend for 2 more years. Our bid $190,000, our contract now $190,000. We are guessing that they made so much money off of the $63,700 contractor in the first 2 years, who is now out of buiness and last we heard in jail, that they can afford us now at even a higher cost. We increased price because it could only be a 1 year deal now versus 2 or 3, but it can be 3 years if their customer extends the contract with them. Again their terms, our price.



Longae29;1311573 said:


> This is turning into a good thread with some rational thinking. Scary. Unfortunately the national companies aren't going anywhere. A lot of the big box stores, or chains be it restaraunts, department stores, banks, tires, etc. don't even take bids in store anymore, and corporate only wants pricing from someone who will take on the responsibility of XX% of their stores. For us, not a huge company by any means, but we run a pretty good show, the national scene has to play somewhat into what we do. We've been doing landscape maintenance for one since july 1st, and have yet to be payed, they haven't been payed by their customer, will we get paid? Yes, I'm certain we will. All of our eggs aren't in that basket, unfortunately look around, more and more sites are being handled through a national company. If you find the right ones, which we work for two who are awesome payers, on time, and pay more than a lot of other customers, but yes, you need to be professional, and you need to be able to do paperwork.....rant over.


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## algieres (Sep 23, 2011)

New here. Wanted to know what do you consider really "low"? Also, thanks for the heads up on the contract stuff. My business partner are considering getting into the plow business and it's nice to know about the potential pit falls.


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## cvwhr (Nov 11, 2009)

We plowed for Don during this 4" ice storm it was a pain in the as storm but with the right equipment and exp. any storm can be managed. I was sent out clean a lot of the banks mentioned and they were bad spent over an hour at each site just moving piles back to start plowing.


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## wbailey244 (Oct 27, 2007)

still have not paid me 10 grand from last year borders book they said they did not get paid so you dont get paid iam taking them to court STAY AWAY FROM THEM


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## CHCSnowman (Nov 11, 2006)

I think we use to have the contract on the banks and Op center you guys are speaking of. Ferrandino took them over last winter and tried subbing it back to us for about a 1/3 of what we made before. I guess they both got what they paid for 

We use to spoil them Chase people......they had the best service in the state before they went national.


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

Berger Hargis your the owner or work there?

Ferrandino got the contract and offered it to us for 1/2 of what they are actually paying us, it is all about the negotiation. Also the other big difference is that it isn't zero tolerance anymore and is a 1.5" plow. We made good margin on the Ops Ctr working for them and were paid, and oh by the way they were happy so not sure about your comment as to they got what they paid for?

If your talking about the branches what a joke I agree they have them per branch maxed out at $3k for the year that is LOW, LOW!



CHCSnowman;1313216 said:


> I think we use to have the contract on the banks and Op center you guys are speaking of. Ferrandino took them over last winter and tried subbing it back to us for about a 1/3 of what we made before. I guess they both got what they paid for
> 
> We use to spoil them Chase people......they had the best service in the state before they went national.


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## CHCSnowman (Nov 11, 2006)

mullis56;1313517 said:


> Berger Hargis your the owner or work there?
> 
> Ferrandino got the contract and offered it to us for 1/2 of what they are actually paying us, it is all about the negotiation. Also the other big difference is that it isn't zero tolerance anymore and is a 1.5" plow. We made good margin on the Ops Ctr working for them and were paid, and oh by the way they were happy so not sure about your comment as to they got what they paid for?
> 
> If your talking about the branches what a joke I agree they have them per branch maxed out at $3k for the year that is LOW, LOW!


Mullis, I just work for them as a sub.......have for several years. They are a good bunch. My comment was based on what you said........


mullis56;1313517 said:


> We did our work per the scope at our price and got paid on time and will again for the term of our contract with them. What we do is a large corporate center. Plus, when 4" inches of ice fell last year and every other contractor they had hired, failed in our market and they were all hired at Ferandino's prices they called who? They called us because we hadn't failed and they in turn had a mess so they paid us our price to bail them out at over 40 bank locations and we were paid in full in the terms on contract. In fact, I'm sure the other contrators that were servicing the bank branches as we were called to the rescue 2 days after a 4" inch ice storm, weren't paid. At many locations our salt trucks, hand crews and plow trucks had confrontations from other contrators who were hired to take care of the sights until we were called to the rescue. Our guys were instructed to say they know nothing and were called to fix the work that wasn't performed and roll up window, so maybe some of the complainers are the won's that failed in their market or aren't a true professional knowing how, when and have experience to make good snow and ice management techniques...just my $0.02 worth.


Sorry if you thought I was putting you guys down. I know you are a good guy....heard many guys say that. I just simply took from your post that they hired people that sucked and were cheap.......didn't know who that included and didn't really care. Take care. 
__________________


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

I got you, no problem. Heard the same about you and I know Berger-Hargis are good guys too! Thanks for clarifying. The groups they hired to do the branches were completely a joke that is what I was saying and so was the pricing that they agreed to on them!


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## CHCSnowman (Nov 11, 2006)

Mr. Mullis, Maybe you guys will get all the branches this year as well. I use to like doing the branches.....I had about 5 branches I was responsible for and would go to the op center sometimes. I hated when Chase decided to go National.......but glad to hear it is still providing local guys with work. Best to you.


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

They offered 26 of them to us at same low pricing we said no go...


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

I actually have a location here they have been calling me about but I'm having serious concerns about doing it. They seem to not know what our market here can support and may have had guys previously doing it for dirt cheap to the extent that it is not worth it at the price they are willing to pay.

To give you this example: this photo is a grocery store they initially wanted to pay me $251.00 each 2" per event including plowing, sidewalks, salting, etc. The contract is fairly explicit about what they require but I myself think it needs to be amended a little bit as a few items are slightly open ended that could leave the plow contractor liable when he'she may not have been the cause of the problem at all. Since my initial contact with them, they have increased the offer to $510 ($200 for plowing and $310 for salting/sidewalks) with me providing the material.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

Where is that?


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

Here in NC. I may take it on a preliminary basis to get a feel for working with them. It's a multi-year contract which is good. But at the price they want to pay, it's along the lines of some jack-legged country boy with a tractor and a boxblade working for $20/hr that they are offering. I was actually :laughing: at their initial offer and decided to keep prsport until they wake up and pay me what I expect to be paid.

Happens all the time. these nationals get someone to accept their lowball offer and then the quality of work is so low they end up coming back to you and end up paying you want you wanted and sometimes more. I understand what they are doing (national comp) and that they should get a portion of the job. But to be honest, I think whoever is doing the end job should be getting the majority of the pay for that particular job. Should the national get as much or more than we do? Heck no...not in my opinion!! I honestly feel their portion should be in the 10-20% range.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

Laszlo Almasi;1360950 said:


> Here in NC.


Well that narrows it down.


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## Bandit (Jan 5, 2005)

At least after You are done plowing the place You can grab a " Breakfast Biscuit " across the street , or are they OOB Now ? Thumbs Up
Bandit
Ps
That location was a lot easier to find then some of the mining claims in Az. I have researched .


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

I'll be working with a National this year, on the other side of the equation. I'll post how it went in the spring.


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

Bandit;1361030 said:


> At least after You are done plowing the place You can grab a " Breakfast Biscuit " across the street , or are they OOB Now ? Thumbs Up
> Bandit
> Ps
> That location was a lot easier to find then some of the mining claims in Az. I have researched .


No, nothing across the street to get food yet. Like your signature though Bandit.

I've sent them a counter offer so we'll see what they say afterwards. I'll let you guys know.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Laszlo Almasi;1360950 said:


> *I may take it on a preliminary basis to get a feel for working with them. It's a multi-year contract which is good. * But at the price they want to pay, it's along the lines of some jack-legged country boy with a tractor and a boxblade working *for $20/hr *that they are offering. I was actually :laughing: at their initial offer and decided to keep prsport until they wake up and pay me what I expect to be paid.


If anyone has any questions as to how things go so wrong with contracts, heres a good place to start.

This post is very hard to understand,. yuo are going to take the work, but then tell them to pay more, what you expect, then tell them how much profit they should make, while you get a feel for working for them, on a preliminary, multi year basis.


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

Longae29;1361288 said:


> If anyone has any questions as to how things go so wrong with contracts, heres a good place to start.
> 
> This post is very hard to understand,. yuo are going to take the work, but then tell them to pay more, what you expect, then tell them how much profit they should make, while you get a feel for working for them, on a preliminary, multi year basis.


There is no contract to go wrong as of yet. I say I may take it but not for the two years they want. I'm not going to get roped into a site and contract that I can't make a good profit on. It's business and if I'm not going to come out on top there is no reason to mess with it. In addition, they will have to be willing to pay me a reasonable amount for the job. At "their price" it's a losing project for two years.

I'm sure in Wisconsin you can't charge as much as we can down here in the south and maybe you'd love that site at that price but for the rest of us down here....no way.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

So you arent going to take it on a preliminary basis for a multi year to see how things go?


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## Bandit (Jan 5, 2005)

Laszlo Almasi;1361275 said:


> No, nothing across the street to get food yet. Like your signature though Bandit.
> 
> I've sent them a counter offer so we'll see what they say afterwards. I'll let you guys know.


 Sent You a Pm , as I don't want to give away the address .
I hope You also like My New Signature , I just changed it on a Homesteading Forum that I am on , and have all ready got six pm's liking it , with one saying it was the best they have seen yet .ussmileyflagussmileyflag


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

Bandit;1361428 said:


> Sent You a Pm , as I don't want to give away the address .
> I hope You also like My New Signature , I just changed it on a Homesteading Forum that I am on , and have all ready got six pm's liking it , with one saying it was the best they have seen yet .ussmileyflagussmileyflag


LMAO...that is hilarious!!


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## ProEnterprises (Dec 16, 2003)

Fernandino took over a lot of the CT CVS locations that I did through another management company (local). I did them forever, and too spoiled them with service. Whatever crackheads Fernandino hired as subs already screwed the lots up last storm. I can't wait for them to screw them up all year so I can get them back.


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## Surf'n'Turf (Nov 29, 2006)

they contacted me last year about doing several sovereign bank branches and sent along a package with the numbers they wanted to meet and their requirements. i'm 95% commercial, but of the handfull of resi driveways i do, i get more money from one of them than i would for what they offered for one of the banks. 60 bucks for icemelt on the walks and lot, assume all liabilty and hand over indemnity to the property owner...i don't think so lol.


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## bartolini (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm not sick of hearing about contractor complaints. We get the job done right, we have a large fleet, we read contracts correctly, we work for or have worked for almost every large national, and quite frankly we have take hits right to the belly from them all. 

Granted, we still play the game and there is a way to perform and do snow combat. Unfortunately most guys don't have 25 years experience like me or maybe fathers who have taught them like others have.

You keep complaining, learning or praising those who treat you fairly for a job well done. Snow is blood money and only the strong can endure and do it.


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## bartolini (Sep 11, 2009)

I imagine you guys do not get a lot of snow or ice in NC. Therefore, the couple of times there are events you may you need to make a decent sum per visit to offset the fixed costs of providing reliable service regardless of frequency. Sounds like you got them to a good number, now hope for a **** storm, do a good job, and you will have all their work in the area while the rest of the area is a skating rink. Good luck!


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

bartolini;1363852 said:


> I imagine you guys do not get a lot of snow or ice in NC. Therefore, the couple of times there are events you may you need to make a decent sum per visit to offset the fixed costs of providing reliable service regardless of frequency. Sounds like you got them to a good number, now hope for a **** storm, do a good job, and you will have all their work in the area while the rest of the area is a skating rink. Good luck!


We actually get more ice than snow. Granted we don't get snow all that much but we do from time to time get a beating and it's usually pretty ugly. And every 10 years or so we get pounded with a 2 foot event.

This particular location is right in an area that I went to on the last huge event we had. There were actually some areas that the snow was so deep I didn't even want to try and clear it. I did end up in this area and found out that as I mentioned earlier in the thread, every jack legged country boy with a tractor and a boxblade or scraper blade was out clearing snow....for $20/hr. That really hurt the potential because they did not know what they could truly be making. And I'm quite certain 95% of them did not have the insurance they should have had. So, now they want to continue to pay that small amount but require even more.

I passed on it because I anticipate whoever takes it on will not be able to perform the scope of work as outlined for the location and still make a profit that is sufficient to stay in business....if they make a profit at all.

I make more from smaller contracts that take much less time and allow me to include more locations closer to me. Bottom line is sometimes a national company is just not worth the time and effort. Not always, but in this particular instance, it is a waste of time IMO. They "sort of" accepted my offer but they started breaking it all up and they still would come out on top.

Evryone should just be very careful. Read your contracts and if something doen't sound quite right...then modify it or pass on the deal.


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## snowbrothers101 (Jul 27, 2009)

I agree with most of you. Take a look at each opportunity and make the decision that works for your company. If it works for me, it doesn't matter if it doesn't work for anyone else. And vice versa. If I can't be successful, good luck to the other guy if it works for him. Doesn't matter to me. I ahve my market and some management opportunities make sense, some don't. But I for sure am not losing sleep by listening to others opinions. There are 100's of management cmpanies out there, some regional, some national. Some good, some bad. In many cases, each contract they have can be good or bad. I just take it one opportunity at a time and make my decisoons accordingly.

At the end of the day, if I make enough to pay the bills and play some roulette on vacation, I am good to go!


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## AJ Watson (Jan 15, 2006)

If you did work for Ferrandino and Sons for Borders bookstores last season please private message me.


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## AJ Watson (Jan 15, 2006)

looking for contractors that serviced borders bookstores under ferrandino and sons. Please private message me.


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

I got a call from them a month ago. They left a message saying "this is so and so from CVS. We'd like to offer you a job clearing snow at our location." Blah, blah. I called the number back and the answering machine said Fernando & Son. LOL I left a message on their answering machine along the lines of, "I own and operate a business and don't need a middle man to provide work for me" and hung up.


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

You guys know that F&S has been following this thread. Not that I care, but they have been lurking here and don't seem very happy about the thread from the impression I got. Too bad though. I wasn't very impressed with them anyway.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

They have now have the contract for a large local home improvement store in my area. I do know for fact what the contractor was paid last year per month. It was a 4 seasons contract with sweeping. F and S subed the work out to a company that has 2 trucks a full sized p/u and ford ranger. The cost is one 1/4 of what the other guy was payed for the past 5 years and his work was not that great to be nice, but he had heavy equipment to get it done he just fell way short on ice control. skates and sticks were in order every time you went there. He has even left his equipment onsite for the just in case they have a change of heart with no snow this year(oct snow was done by old contractor) they are looking real good in home offices eye's.


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## snowbrothers101 (Jul 27, 2009)

With the winter we have had, my customers think I am awesome as well! No service needed, no issues.

Anyone think this season will turn around or is it really going to be the season that never was?


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

fireside;1416500 said:


> They have now have the contract for a large local home improvement store in my area. I do know for fact what the contractor was paid last year per month. It was a 4 seasons contract with sweeping. F and S subed the work out to a company that has 2 trucks a full sized p/u and ford ranger. The cost is one 1/4 of what the other guy was payed for the past 5 years and his work was not that great to be nice, but he had heavy equipment to get it done he just fell way short on ice control. skates and sticks were in order every time you went there. He has even left his equipment onsite for the just in case they have a change of heart with no snow this year(oct snow was done by old contractor) they are looking real good in home offices eye's.


F&S is paying 1/4 of what the site pays? Or F&S is doing it for 1/4 of the previous guys price?


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

Laszlo Almasi;1425657 said:


> F&S is paying 1/4 of what the site pays? Or F&S is doing it for 1/4 of the previous guys price?


I'd hope they are smart enough to charge the full price and make 3/4 on the job. I doubt they are doing it for a 1/4 of what the price use to be. That would be foolish on their part. It makes no difference to me, I don't do sub work for others.


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## Silverstreak (Oct 25, 2007)

unfortunately no they are crackheads in the estimating department, dont know why they would work for rates like that, they are seriously killing the industry bring rates down across the board. dont know what their idea is, if lowballing to become number 1 on the snow list is how the owners get their rocks off or what, but in any case to put some money where my mouth is, im in tight with a property manager, and she had to bid it out because the 2 year contract was up, the numbers are straight ********, and being they sub/rent equipment, there is no one who will work for rates like that, unless they are finding loopholes to not pay their subs, believe me i use subs and ive tried to get people to work for rates HIGHER than what F&S is charging the customer so how can you be making 20-30% GM on something like that

wheel loader w operator US $200.00 hr
THEM $ 125 hr
(4 cubic yard 544 size JD)

wheel loader w operator US $250
them $125
6 cy 744 size JD 

plow truck 8' US 95 hr
them 80 hr

hoe us 150
them 125

obviously i dont care and if theyre reading... theyll find out what it refers to, and needless to say we have the signed contract for 5 more years....numbers arent everything and shame on them for bidding so low...its a terrible thing to see


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

ALC-GregH;1425717 said:


> I'd hope they are smart enough to charge the full price and make 3/4 on the job. I doubt they are doing it for a 1/4 of what the price use to be. That would be foolish on their part. It makes no difference to me, I don't do sub work for others.


I agree. But at times I will sub for others....but I'm going to charge just about what I normally charge.


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

Silverstreak;1428077 said:


> unfortunately no they are crackheads in the estimating department, dont know why they would work for rates like that, they are seriously killing the industry bring rates down across the board. dont know what their idea is, if lowballing to become number 1 on the snow list is how the owners get their rocks off or what, but in any case to put some money where my mouth is, im in tight with a property manager, and she had to bid it out because the 2 year contract was up, the numbers are straight ********, and being they sub/rent equipment, there is no one who will work for rates like that, unless they are finding loopholes to not pay their subs, believe me i use subs and ive tried to get people to work for rates HIGHER than what F&S is charging the customer so how can you be making 20-30% GM on something like that
> 
> wheel loader w operator US $200.00 hr
> THEM $ 125 hr
> ...


That's about that I thinkthey bid for this Food Lion down here. I told the lady I spoke to I was not even remotely interested in doing that lot for the price they offered.

I'm sure they get bitten quite a bit from subs that will do it for their price but end up doing a very poor job in the end.


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

Laszlo Almasi;1434185 said:


> I agree. But at times I will sub for others....but I'm going to charge just about what I normally charge.


Let me be more clear. I won't work for a national. I'll take on work from local contractors.


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## Laszlo Almasi (Feb 11, 2006)

ALC-GregH;1434685 said:


> Let me be more clear. I won't work for a national. I'll take on work from local contractors.


Gotcha. I'm of the same mindset.


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