# 1st year bidding snow



## Bryan B (Oct 9, 2020)

Hey guys,
I'm going into my 1st year doing snow as a business owner. For the 1st 2 years I'm going to be doing it solo. Spring and Summer went very well and I was able to pay my truck off and buy myself a new Salt Dogg and the new Western VPlow with cash so I have no bills. I'm located in Eastern Wisconsin and unsure how to bid commercial lots. I can look at them and figure out how long they would take me but I am unsure how to price it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks fellas


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Bryan B said:


> Hey guys,
> I'm going into my 1st year doing snow as a business owner. For the 1st 2 years I'm going to be doing it solo. Spring and Summer went very well and I was able to pay my truck off and buy myself a new Salt Dogg and the new Western VPlow with cash so I have no bills. I'm located in Eastern Wisconsin and unsure how to bid commercial lots. I can look at them and figure out how long they would take me but I am unsure how to price it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks fellas


If you can figure out how long it will take and how much you need per hour to make it profitable you have nailed it.
Figure your time per hour, depreciation on the truck, plow and spreader and annual maintenance costs all broken down by the hour. 
Maybe to get your feet wet the 1st year, sob for someone. In your area with a v plow, you can probably make about $80, or more / hour subbing.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Btw I thought "sobbing" was a great freudian slip.


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## Bryan B (Oct 9, 2020)

EWSplow said:


> If you can figure out how long it will take and how much you need per hour to make it profitable you have nailed it.
> Figure your time per hour, depreciation on the truck, plow and spreader and annual maintenance costs all broken down by the hour.
> Maybe to get your feet wet the 1st year, sob for someone. In your area with a v plow, you can probably make about $80, or more / hour subbing.


I am unsure how to get that number. Say a lot takes me 1.5 hours and 1000# salt and my salt price I got it to 17 cents per pound. Also how do I break everything thing down as you said.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Bryan B said:


> I am unsure how to get that number. Say a lot takes me 1.5 hours and 1000# salt and my salt price I got it to 17 cents per pound. Also how do I break everything thing down as you said.


Have you ever plowed before? or worked on a walkway crew? It's not a problem if you haven't, everyone starts somewhere, it just might be easier to work as a sub this year because it will give you information you need to successfully bid in the future when you're doing it solo.


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## Bryan B (Oct 9, 2020)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Have you ever plowed before? or worked on a walkway crew? It's not a problem if you haven't, everyone starts somewhere, it just might be easier to work as a sub this year because it will give you information you need to successfully bid in the future when you're doing it solo.


I've done both for years and that's why I decided to start my own company. With landscaping it was easier for me to price out. I've been saving for a few years to go solo. The only thing I'm missing is my commercial snow numbers


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Bryan B said:


> I've done both for years and that's why I decided to start my own company. With landscaping it was easier for me to price out. I've been saving for a few years to go solo. The only thing I'm missing is my commercial snow numbers


Ok, try to break down the cost of your truck/plow/spreader by month. Even though they are paid for there is still a monthly cost associated with them. Maybe best to amortize the cost over 5 years. Take the total cost of the truck and you can run it through a bank mortgage calculator to give you a monthly cost.
You can do the same for your plow and spreader. Keep in mind you don't need a plow or spreader for the landscaping work so a $6000.00 spreader costs you about $240.00 a month over 5 years ($6000.00 ÷ (5 months a year x 5 years))


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## Bryan B (Oct 9, 2020)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Ok, try to break down the cost of your truck/plow/spreader by month. Even though they are paid for there is still a monthly cost associated with them. Maybe best to amortize the cost over 5 years. Take the total cost of the truck and you can run it through a bank mortgage calculator to give you a monthly cost.
> You can do the same for your plow and spreader. Keep in mind you don't need a plow or spreader for the landscaping work so a $6000.00 spreader costs you about $240.00 a month over 5 years ($6000.00 ÷ (5 months a year x 5 years))


Thank you sharing your knowledge. Much appreciated!


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

Bryan B said:


> Hey guys,
> I'm going into my 1st year doing snow as a business owner. For the 1st 2 years I'm going to be doing it solo. Spring and Summer went very well and I was able to pay my truck off and buy myself a new Salt Dogg and the new Western VPlow with cash so I have no bills. I'm located in Eastern Wisconsin and unsure how to bid commercial lots. I can look at them and figure out how long they would take me but I am unsure how to price it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks fellas


There's some good advice here, but still missing one huge step for an owner/operator: Creating a Spreadsheet calculator that uses square feet and linear feet to give you a rough price. This will allow you to roughly estimate properties by satellite, letting your quote 10 properties in the same time it took to quote 1, and allowing you to get back to clients in minutes, rather than days.

Step 1. Take 5 lots you know how long it takes to clear, then figure out what your time per sqft it. (Ideally break it down to plowing and shoveling separately).
Step 2. Figure out what you need to earn per hour. There is some decent advice above how to do that. The number should probably be somewhere near $150/hour for a truck+plow, $75 / hour for a truck with shoveller.
Step 3. Work out what your per sqft cost is to plow, cost to salt, and your per Lnft cost is to shovel.
Step 4. Build a spreadsheet that says FlatRate + SQFTxCOST. Maybe add in a seasonal multiplier if you want to build seasonal pricing.

Send the rough estimate for pricing to clients, for clients that are interested, Meet the client, do a site visit, modify your numbers based on ease/difficulty that wasn't apparent on satellite.


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## Bryan B (Oct 9, 2020)

Unraveller said:


> There's some good advice here, but still missing one huge step for an owner/operator: Creating a Spreadsheet calculator that uses square feet and linear feet to give you a rough price. This will allow you to roughly estimate properties by satellite, letting your quote 10 properties in the same time it took to quote 1, and allowing you to get back to clients in minutes, rather than days.
> 
> Step 1. Take 5 lots you know how long it takes to clear, then figure out what your time per sqft it. (Ideally break it down to plowing and shoveling separately).
> Step 2. Figure out what you need to earn per hour. There is some decent advice above how to do that. The number should probably be somewhere near $150/hour for a truck+plow, $75 / hour for a truck with shoveller.
> ...


I will definitely do this, I understand my 1st year plowing has the possibility of not earning as much as I should but with this information, next year I will be able to get my numbers a lot more accurate. Thank you


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

Bryan B said:


> I will definitely do this, I understand my 1st year plowing has the possibility of not earning as much as I should but with this information, next year I will be able to get my numbers a lot more accurate. Thank you


Honestly, you should do it anyway this year, it's not hard to build a very simple template:

Here, these are the "low" numbers we use, which are based on some pickup truck operators in our area:

Per Visit Pricing

Our LOW pricing
Plow: $30+.003*sqft.
Shovel: $15+0.50*sqft (of shovel area)
Total Per Visit: Plow + Shovel
Salt: $25+.003*sqft

Our High Pricing:
Plow: $35 + .005*sqft
Shovel: $30 + 1*sqft (square feet of shovel area)
Salt: $35 + .004*sqft

These numbers are probably low for smaller places, <10,000. And a touch high for places > Acre

But if you're quoting triplex's, plazas and such, it should give you a start.


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## Bryan B (Oct 9, 2020)

Unraveller said:


> Honestly, you should do it anyway this year, it's not hard to build a very simple template:
> 
> Here, these are the "low" numbers we use, which are based on some pickup truck operators in our area:
> 
> ...


Awesome, I will set one up this weekend. Super cool you're sharing this information with me.


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

Bryan B said:


> Awesome, I will set one up this weekend. Super cool you're sharing this information with me.


I updated them a bit, to simplify and share our high side stuff too. And these are just starting points. Use them to "estimate" for a client, then go there and modify if you are in the ballpark.

Also, if you have a pre-existing relationship with a client, ask for their pr

And no problem, there's plenty of work out there (in my area at least).

It's better to over price, over service, and work less, than under price and under service more clients.


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## Bryan B (Oct 9, 2020)

Unraveller said:


> I updated them a bit, to simplify and share our high side stuff too. And these are just starting points. Use them to "estimate" for a client, then go there and modify if you are in the ballpark.
> 
> Also, if you have a pre-existing relationship with a client, ask for their pr
> 
> ...


This is very helpful info. super cool bro


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Just asking about your salt number to give some advice. Are you paying $340 per ton for bulk or is this a bag price?

You can probably get loaded out at a site one or equivalent for $120 per ton on the high end. Something to look into as it’ll be hard to make money on salt at that price.


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## Unraveller (Jan 28, 2014)

rizzoa13 said:


> Just asking about your salt number to give some advice. Are you paying $340 per ton for bulk or is this a bag price?
> 
> You can probably get loaded out at a site one or equivalent for $120 per ton on the high end. Something to look into as it'll be hard to make money on salt at that price.


Sorry? This is suggested selling prices, not operational costs.

Pricing of $0.003 per sqft is about $130 per acre. At 1000lbs per acre, that's revenue around $260 per ton. Material cost was $150 per tonne, so we are upcharging $100 per ton, roughly speaking.

(These prices also include salting the walking areas, and our Actual calculations involve a charge for salting those too, but i simplified for this example)

Charging $275 / ton against a $145/150 material cost (2019). That seems out of line to you?


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## rizzoa13 (Oct 20, 2018)

Op said his salt price was 17cents per pound.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Just beware that one areas rates are not another's.

You won't get the same rate in Erie, PA as you will in Jersey. Or even Pittsburgh for that matter. Or Cleveland. 

So while a recommendation of around $150/hour might be great in Kannuckia, it might leave you warm in bed in eastern Wisconsin because that number is just too high. Or maybe it's too low. I don't know. You're probably also dealing with the inventor of the QuickCube that will drive your markets numbers down. 

Then throw in your insurance costs are different, overhead is different, desired profit is different, ability to spread out your overhead over fewer pieces of equipment...you can't base you numbers on what someone from Kannuckia is telling you that you should be close to. The only thing the same is snow. Equipment costs are higher in Kannuckia than Murca. So those numbers are likely higher than what you could get. Or not. 

You need to base your hourly rate on what you can make money at and what the market will bear.


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## Bryan B (Oct 9, 2020)

rizzoa13 said:


> Just asking about your salt number to give some advice. Are you paying $340 per ton for bulk or is this a bag price?
> 
> You can probably get loaded out at a site one or equivalent for $120 per ton on the high end. Something to look into as it'll be hard to make money on salt at that price.


I'm paying $225 a ton


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Bryan B said:


> I'm paying $225 a ton


Yikes 

I wish every event was salting only,


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

I've never really gotten into the break costs down to the square foot thing. Maybe I'm stoopid?
Not every lot is the same, so going through all the work to figure out a square foot price on one lot then having to modify it for the next just seems like too much work to me. I just do it by time it should take , add my expenses, etc and roll from there. 
As for salt, again amount used and time spent to spread it. 
Hourly rates in this area are all over the board. 
You can't price according to what others may charge, they may be more efficient than you, or they may have more overhead than you. 
Since you mow, I'll put it this way: one guy is mowing a lawn using a 22" push mower, another is mowing a comparable lawn with a 48" mower. Are they worth the same per hour? The guy with the push mower has less invested, but the other guy can do the same lawn in 1/3 of the time. 
Everyone's productivity rate is different. 
I'm pretty fast with a v plow, but I'm also picky and don't leave trails, etc. Some hack could probably do the same lot in less time, but having to make a return trip isn't worth it.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Way back when I used to spray lawns, i measured with a wheel, and we estimated/charged by the square foot. You have to know too that we are a small town. 
When properties sold we generally picked up the new owners so measurements were in a file cabinet under the property #.
What I learned from that let me know how to do it correctly. I learned the new way as well using findlotsize, and love it but square footage can be off by as much as 20%. It doesnt allow for elevation changes. An example for lawns is a front ditch or berm, on the sat image it measures flat but that ditch or berm travels down and up again adding sq footage.
It is great for a quick guideline but visit the site before submittting your bid. The same goes for plowing, parking lots that appear level sometimes arent. Stacking locations,windrowing drainage can really be affected by not knowing for sure.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mr.Markus said:


> Way back when I used to spray lawns, i measured with a wheel, and we estimated/charged by the square foot. You have to know too that we are a small town.
> When properties sold we generally picked up the new owners so measurements were in a file cabinet under the property #.
> What I learned from that let me know how to do it correctly. I learned the new way as well using findlotsize, and love it but square footage can be off by as much as 20%. It doesnt allow for elevation changes. An example for lawns is a front ditch or berm, on the sat image it measures flat but that ditch or berm travels down and up again adding sq footage.
> It is great for a quick guideline but visit the site before submittting your bid. The same goes for plowing, parking lots that appear level sometimes arent. Stacking locations,windrowing drainage can really be affected by not knowing for sure.


Also, about findlotsize, it doesn't account for new buildings or new parking lots or any of that stuff, so you're on your own getting those measurements


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Also, about findlotsize, it doesn't account for new buildings or new parking lots or any of that stuff, so you're on your own getting those measurements


Its also created by a National that tracks what is being measured and now knows what is in the process of being bid...

Just kidding, just trying to keep the conspiracy guys on edge.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

If ewe pay the extra fee (like 3 US dollars or a few loony roomies) you can get an more updated map


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## Bryan B (Oct 9, 2020)

Bryan B said:


> I'm paying $225 a ton


My bad its $125 a ton. Its .06 per pound which I made my price. 17


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## MP3CALLY (Sep 8, 2020)

Bryan B said:


> I'm paying $225 a ton


I pay around 250 for 1.5 in Canada


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

Is anyone familiar with pricing by a multiplier rather than an overall estimation of time / material?

For example: 200 per ton x 4 = $800 (customer price) / 2000 lbs = $.40 per lb. Which you then multiple that rate x lbs used each lot. 800 lbs per acre = $320 per acre charge. The numbers are specifically for example only. It obviously depends on other factors to get to the multiplier you're looking for.

I would greatly appreciate if someone could share how they breakdown their price multiplier per accumulation ranges for commercial customers (requesting per service). Based off of customers requests and networking I have heard plenty of different methods. For example: 1-3" ; 3.1-5" ; 5.1-7" ; 7.1-11" ; 11+"

I have been trying to nail down a good formula for these ranges but it seems like there is a standard breakdown I'm completely missing. 
1. do you include a salt at same visit discount?​2. Do you keep it as plow only and charge by salt amount used per event like a per lb rate?​​Now, before anyone says: "well, it is your company do what you think is best" I realize that.

I'm just trying to figure out if there is an industry standard I'm missing and could confuse potential commercial clients causing them to shy away from doing business with us.

I would appreciate any feedback. Thank you in advance.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Simple, review your historical data on your sites to find how much more time it took you to plow 6” vs 3”. There’s your multiplier for that increment. Then do the same for plowing 9” vs 6”. How much more time did it take you? There’s your multiplier for that increment. Easy straight forward math.


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

Luther said:


> Simple, review your historical data on your sites to find how much more time it took you to plow 6" vs 3". There's your multiplier for that increment. Then do the same for plowing 9" vs 6". How much more time did it take you? There's your multiplier for that increment. Easy straight forward math.


Right - absolutely what is what I do. However, how do you break it down in an estimate / contract that is familiar to most companies? My area seems to start at 1-3" then so on so forth like I listed originally.. Also, LBS of salt - how in the hell do you keep track of lbs per property? I have big clients that are used to getting charged by the lb each time. Is that only when there is equipment / salt onsite and is measured the bucket load?

lastly. are you or anyone else viewing this familiar with charging clients per hour? Starting the clock and charge per truck, skidder, loader, salter shoveler, etc? Sounds messy and I've always strayed away. I think it is over my head relative to the capacity parameters.

Thanks for your input, Luther!


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