# Property Line Ettiquette



## forthebirds (Sep 24, 2018)

I own a parcel of land in Montana, 20 acres in size. Neighbor also owns 20 acres. Mine is vacant, he built a house on his. He hasn't tried Montana winters before, wants to try them this time. Some years Montana gets lots of snow, others years not so much. Maybe anywhere from 0x driveway plows to 10x driveway plows during a typical winter.

The neighbor decided to build his driveway close to our shared property line. In one location, it comes to within 18" of the property line. I placed some wooden posts along the property line last summer to mark the boundary, and one is approximately 18" from the driveway.

Next summer I would like to plant a windbreak of ponderosa pine trees along the property line.

My parents (who are not the neighbor but are Montanans) are less than pleased. They are saying that my posts will make it difficult for him to plow. And they think that my trees will be make life difficult for him, and they don't think I'm being nice to plant them.

My question for the group is: What is the snow plowing etiquette regarding property lines? Can/should the neighbor plow in a manner than avoids the posts/trees that I have installed or plan to install? Was I wrong to put up a post, fully located on my side of the property line, that might be. (The property line runs straight vertical in this picture and is 6" to the left of the post that I installed.)

The driveway is about 12 feet wide at that location, for what that is worth.

Picture of post and driveway is below.
View attachment 184204


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

I put up some posts less than a foot from my property line because my neighbor kept straying from his driveway (situated right on the property line) onto my grass. Besides ruining the grass, he would also bump the retaining wall around my koi pond.

So are your trees bad etiquette? Hell if I know, but I personally approve.

Edit: I should probably add, you didn't say how close to the property line the trees would be planted. Planting them so close that they encroach and overhang his driveway when full grown would be bad form of course, but so long as their full size stays on your property, I say go for it.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

How do posts 18" off what he should be plowing make it hard to plow?

Proper snow plowing keeps your own snow on your own property...


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## forthebirds (Sep 24, 2018)

Philbilly2 said:


> How do posts 18" off what he should be plowing make it hard to plow?
> 
> Proper snow plowing keeps your own snow on your own property...


That's a big part of my question and hoping you guys can help me out. I do not live in snow country and have never plowed a driveway before.

I would expect that a reasonably skilled snowplower would be able to handle their equipment in such a way that won't interfere with the post. I don't know if my assumption is accurate or not though.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Should not be an issue.

When I used to plow cul-de-sacs, people put those orange markers all down their property lines to keep us from piling snow on in their yard. We just punched it between the markers.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

put a high tensile fence 6 inches from the line, maybe 2 or 3 rows, run at least a couple of hundred feet, if he asks, tell him you are fencing in your property, and this is the start


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Things are different oot west...more neighborly so it might be verboten.

Is the wind break\tree line on the down wind side of the driveway? Based on prevailing winds. Meaning, if he pushes snow the other way will it cause his to drift in more? Do you really have to plant your trees that close to the property line? 

He might be somewhat of a :terribletowel:for putting his driveway that close to the property line but you might be compounding it by putting trees so close to yours.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What kind of trees?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> View attachment 184210
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What can I say...I'm blind in one eye and can't see out of the other. And I may or may not have been mobile at the time I was reading it. 

PS Why are you changing my posts?


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## forthebirds (Sep 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Is the wind break\tree line on the down wind side of the driveway? Based on prevailing winds. Meaning, if he pushes snow the other way will it cause his to drift in more? Do you really have to plant your trees that close to the property line?


No, I don't "have to" to plant trees that close to the property line, just like the neighbor didn't "need" to route the driveway that close to the property line. We each have 20 acres so we each have a lot of space to ourselves. It was handy for the neighbor to put the road where he did, just like it might be handy for me to put trees in parallel and inside just a bit to the property line.

No, I do not think that the direction in which he pushes snow will result in drifting. If there is any drifting, the ponderosa pines will help prevent drifting by disrupting the flow of wind.

But help me figure something out. If the location of planting trees (a little bit to the right of the property line) isn't neighborly / correct, what is the correct location to plant them?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

forthebirds said:


> No, I do not think that the direction in which he pushes snow will result in drifting. If there is any drifting, the ponderosa pines will help prevent drifting by disrupting the flow of wind.


Which direction is it? Pretty easy to figure out if you tell us.



forthebirds said:


> But help me figure something out. If the location of planting trees (a little bit to the right of the property line) isn't neighborly / correct, what is the correct location to plant them?


I'm not saying it is or it isn't, just that things out west are different (in a good way IMO) than most other places. A ponderosa gets 25-30' wide, so a spread of 12-15' in each direction. Planting them on the property line means they're going to intrude on his property a good 12'. Not sure about Montana, but in Michigan anything hanging over a property line is fair game to be cut. So theoretically once they start spreading over, he could just chop them.

I guess my question is: is this going to start a pissing match and if so, is it really worth it?

One more question...when it does snow, how much snow, as in seasonal average? A general location or region would be helpful, as snowfall varies immensely in that great state.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What can I say...I'm blind in one eye and can't see out of the other. And I may or may not have been mobile at the time I was reading it.
> 
> PS Why are you changing my posts?











LOL... so sneaky you are.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

As for the drifting, we use pines and firs as a "shelterbelt" here. Depending on if his drive is to the west of your property, you might be helping him by stopping the drifting across his drive?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm blind in one eye and can't see out of the other


And this is my line... as it is actually quite true for me... :laugh:


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## forthebirds (Sep 24, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Which direction is it? Pretty easy to figure out if you tell us.


Not sure. I haven't spent enough time there.



> I'm not saying it is or it isn't, just that things out west are different (in a good way IMO) than most other places. A ponderosa gets 25-30' wide, so a spread of 12-15' in each direction. Planting them on the property line means they're going to intrude on his property a good 12'. Not sure about Montana, but in Michigan anything hanging over a property line is fair game to be cut. So theoretically once they start spreading over, he could just chop them.


I'll have to put some thought into it. I want to do the right thing.



> I guess my question is: is this going to start a pissing match and if so, is it really worth it?


The property is a tree farm and I'm reforesting the portions of the property that are barren, so yes, it's important to me to do. I don't have to put them exactly where I thought I was going to though. I will put some though into it.


> One more question...when it does snow, how much snow, as in seasonal average? A general location or region would be helpful, as snowfall varies immensely in that great state.


I don't wish to publically say where it is but last winter there was about 2 1/2 feet on the level, I believe. Last winter was fairly typical.


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## forthebirds (Sep 24, 2018)

Philbilly2 said:


> As for the drifting, we use pines and firs as a "shelterbelt" here. Depending on if his drive is to the west of your property, you might be helping him by stopping the drifting across his drive?


Good point. Yes, his drive is to the west.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

forthebirds said:


> Not sure. I haven't spent enough time there.


K....look it up on the county tax parcel map thing??? FWIW, prevailing winds in the US are basically from the west. Might be northwest, southwest or west, but generally speaking from the west. Geographic conditions can alter this somewhat.



forthebirds said:


> I'll have to put some thought into it. I want to do the right thing.


I would too. Maybe he would have had to cut a truckload of timber to put his drive in a different spot. Or haul in a bunch of fill due to low spots or cross a creek or whatever. Just trying to look at both sides.



forthebirds said:


> The property is a tree farm and I'm reforesting the portions of the property that are barren, so yes, it's important to me to do. I don't have to put them exactly where I thought I was going to though. I will put some though into it.


That would have been helpful to know. Then you do want to use as much acreage as you have.



forthebirds said:


> I don't wish to publically say where it is but last winter there was about 2 1/2 feet on the level, I believe. Last winter was fairly typical.


West central? South central? Central central? Northwest corner? That's why I said general.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

forthebirds said:


> Good point. Yes, his drive is to the west.


That's what I was asking...so he will likely windrow to the east, onto or near your trees. But it will not create a snow fence that will fill in his drive.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

Why not just talk directly to the neighbor about this? Sounds like you already know him at least a bit.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

OP,
Ponderosa Pines at not a good choice for a shelter belt or wind break. They're prone to beetle kill and in high wind or heavy snow they lose limbs.
Blue Spruce and Western Red Cedars are great choices for shelter belts and wind breaks.
As Mark said make sure you space your tress far enough way from your property line and from each other. I planted Blue Spruce and Western Red Cedars spaced 12 feet apart from each other and with 3 rows 6ft from each other that are staggered.
Depending on wind and amount of snow expect snow to drift in 10-30' on the down wind side of the trees.

Also having open areas in a forest is a positive for wildlife and the health of the forest along with fire mitigation. Before you plant trees you should contact the soil conservation district in the area, they can provide you with tree plot layouts, info about living snow fences, type of species to use and in most case you should be able to apply for grant money to cover cost for trees, drip irrigation and weed barrier.
Talk to the local fire department and USFS about fire mitigation guidelines. I know when there's a fire property's that have a defensible zone around the building, have trees trimmed up and dead fall/ slash piles removed will be protected before a property that is over grown.

The last thing you want to do is piss off your neighbor, he could be the guy that bails you out if something was to come up.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Something else I should have mentioned is, Montana is a fence out state. This means if you don’t want other people’s livestock on your ground you need to put up a suitable fence to keep them out.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

To add on to what Buff has.

These are your standard windbreak trees that I know of.

Any that I am missing, please add.

You have your Arborvitae's, your Doug, Canaan, and Concolor Firs, your Blue and Black Hills Spruce, The red cedar, your Norwary spruce, and your scotch and white pines.

The pines will grow super fast and will grow on the side of a rock. Blue spruces are super pretty when shaped and grown, but they do grow very slow. Concolors smell like oranges when you cut branches.

The other thing that we do when planting our shelter belts is plant different breeds of trees. One row of a pine, a row of spruce, and a row of firs. The reason behind this if say you get you get pine wilt in your pines, or if you get aphids in your spruces, your other breeds will still protect you till you can get the situation under control.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Is it that big of a deal he came within 18” of your property? I mean cmon man.


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## forthebirds (Sep 24, 2018)

iceyman said:


> Is it that big of a deal he came within 18" of your property? I mean cmon man.


He can build his driveway anywhere he likes as long as it doesn't prevent me from planting trees or otherwise using my parcel for the activities that I'd like to do. I don't wish to stop doing work on a portion due to the driveway however.

Hence was my orginal question as it relates to plowing. Do I need to avoid certain activities (posts, tree planting, etc) where his driveway gets close to the property line? Or can skilled operators work around it.

It's only that close for about 40 feet or so. Not the whole driveway length.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

forthebirds said:


> .
> 
> Hence was my orginal question as it relates to plowing. Do I need to avoid certain activities (posts, tree planting, etc) where his driveway gets close to the property line? Or can skilled operators work around it.


No


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

forthebirds said:


> He can build his driveway anywhere he likes as long as it doesn't prevent me from planting trees or otherwise using my parcel for the activities that I'd like to do. I don't wish to stop doing work on a portion due to the driveway however.
> 
> Hence was my orginal question as it relates to plowing. Do I need to avoid certain activities (posts, tree planting, etc) where his driveway gets close to the property line? Or can skilled operators work around it.
> 
> It's only that close for about 40 feet or so. Not the whole driveway length.


The neighbor has every right to do what he wants on his ground that's legal just like you do.
It seems the driveway is a sore spot with you and it's be advisable you get over it before things escalate into a boarder war.

As long as what is on your property stays on your property meaning tree branches and the same goes for the neighbor.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

BUFF said:


> Something else I should have mentioned is, Montana is a fence out state. This means if you don't want other people's livestock on your ground you need to put up a suitable fence to keep them out.


I believe on plowsite you are going to have to define "livestock"...


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> I believe on plowsite you are going to have to define "livestock"...


They all can run the .com and look it up if needed.Thumbs Up


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## Brettny (Jul 12, 2017)

You got 20 acres are your worried about 18in of someone elses property? Are you from Brooklyn?

Worry about things that matter, be a good neighbor. You may need a favor some day.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

I think he is more worried the damage to his property from the snowplowing which is possible.


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## forthebirds (Sep 24, 2018)

Brettny said:


> You got 20 acres are your worried about 18in of someone elses property? Are you from Brooklyn?
> 
> Worry about things that matter, be a good neighbor. You may need a favor some day.


I'm not "worried" about where he put his road, other than I am trying to figure out if his road placement will/should have any effect on what I do with my property and my plans. He's welcome to put his road anywhere he wants to, I have no issue with that.

I think I've generally come to the conclusion that as long as what I do is squarely on my property, I'm generally free to do what I like. I am not going to doing anything obnoxious, simply plant trees, and he'll have to live with those decisions. It's not my different than I don't have a say in what color my neighbor paints there house. It's their decision, not mine.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Brettny said:


> You got 20 acres are your worried about 18in of someone elses property? Are you from Brooklyn?
> 
> Worry about things that matter, be a good neighbor. You may need a favor some day.


My guess is Oregon, Washington or California


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> I believe on plowsite you are going to have to define "livestock"...


I better not.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

ConnorExum said:


> I think he is more worried the damage to his property from the snowplowing which is possible.


Not everyone has a monster truck to plow the zero to twenty inches of seasonal snow that they may or may not get.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

forthebirds said:


> I'm not "worried" about where he put his road, other than I am trying to figure out if his road placement will/should have any effect on what I do with my property and my plans. He's welcome to put his road anywhere he wants to, I have no issue with that.
> 
> I think I've generally come to the conclusion that as long as what I do is squarely on my property, I'm generally free to do what I like. I am not going to doing anything obnoxious, simply plant trees, and he'll have to live with those decisions. It's not my different than I don't have a say in what color my neighbor paints there house. It's their decision, not mine.


Disregard,


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Not everyone has a monster truck to plow the zero to twenty inches of seasonal snow that they may or may not get.


We got 90 inches last year.... used to get about 110 reliably. And by damage I was really talking about the salt issue.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

ConnorExum said:


> We got 90 inches last year.... used to get about 110 reliably. And by damage I was really talking about the salt issue.


Were not talking about you, this has to do with a gravel driveway in Montana. I dont think salt damage will be an issue.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Were not talking about you, this has to do with a gravel driveway in Montana. I dont think salt damage will be an issue.


18 inches from the property line I figured he was worried about his trees he planned to plant. I've seen the damage that excessive salt can do to plants. I have a big client that spent $80k in new trees because they over salted the place and they were about 18 inches from the road.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

:hammerhead::terribletowel:


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> :hammerhead::terribletowel:


Are you trying to get a point across?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Were not talking about you, this has to do with a gravel driveway in Montana. I dont think salt damage will be an issue.


Salt on a dirt drive or road is a .
Also salt / deicer is used very lightly ootwest compared to what is used in the Midwest/ North East.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Randall Ave said:


> Are you trying to get a point across?


Nothing that hasn't been said before.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

forthebirds said:


> Hence was my orginal question as it relates to plowing. Do I need to avoid certain activities (posts, tree planting, etc) where his driveway gets close to the property line? Or can skilled operators work around it.


Would seem I was correct the original poster is only worried about potential damage to his property namely the trees... since that probably won't happen under normal coniditions the original poster shouldn't worry. And I am not crazy because I understood his original question and at no time did I ever make it about me.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

ConnorExum said:


> 18 inches from the property line I figured he was worried about his trees he planned to plant. I've seen the damage that excessive salt can do to plants. I have a big client that spent $80k in new trees because they over salted the place and they were about 18 inches from the road.


Putting trees 18" from the roads edge is just asking for problems, sounds like this "customer" of yours has more money than common sense.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

BUFF said:


> Putting trees 18" from the roads edge is just asking for problems, sounds like this "customer" of yours has more money than common sense.


 They've wasted millions on projects... it is a private university. Gotta keep the president happy. They spent almost $40k in watering until they realized the contractor was watering the road mostly in that 
6 month period.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

ConnorExum said:


> I am not crazy, have you been tested.


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## ConnorExum (Jan 5, 2010)

Only for MENSA...


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)




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