# Merit snow removal contractors???



## cnsickles (Mar 28, 2018)

How many of you were as unlucky as I was to take on a Lowes site for snow removal that Merit was managing?
I'm considering puting something together if I can get a few other contractors involved.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Sent you a pm


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What eggzactly was the issue?

And for one respondent, after all that has been said about them, why would you contract with them???


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Gotta say, I've been pretty fortunate to never sub for some dirtbags yet. Yes, I've had slow pay, but so far I've always gotten what I've earned (knock on wood).


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What eggzactly was the issue?
> 
> And for one respondent, after all that has been said about them, why would you contract with them???


Location, and problem you had?


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## TColemanP (Mar 28, 2018)

I have not done any work with them, but I did take over 3 of their accounts because they were terminated. Sounds like they never paid etc etc. Glad we never had to deal with them. They asked us once to do their accounts, but before I even researched their company their pricing was FAR too low to even consider.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

TColemanP said:


> I have not done any work with them, but I did take over 3 of their accounts because they were terminated. Sounds like they never paid etc etc. Glad we never had to deal with them. They asked us once to do their accounts, but before I even researched their company their pricing was FAR too low to even consider.


What company are you working for that took over the sites they lost? I'm guessing the same one we are doing them for.

Their original numbers were way way lowballed but they came up significantly in pricing.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I will say, they have paid some of our invoices. Far from all though.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

I love hearing stories about Merit screwing things up. Share more please


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Seemed like a quiet "national" season. Haven't seen the usually endless threads crying about them.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

leigh said:


> Seemed like a quiet "national" season. Haven't seen the usually endless threads crying about them.


I was thinking the same thing. Maybe they finally reached the bottom of the barrel and only sub to bums with out internet access??


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

maybe a lot of new names for old faces and people are waiting to see if they paid?


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

leigh said:


> Seemed like a quiet "national" season. Haven't seen the usually endless threads crying about them.


Its when the last couple checks have to go out they always seem to get lost in their "system"


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Masssnowfighter said:


> I was thinking the same thing. Maybe they finally reached the bottom of the barrel and only sub to bums with out internet access??


Apparently not...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Masssnowfighter said:


> Maybe they finally reached the bottom of the barrel and only sub to bums with out internet access??


No matter how far you reach into the barrel, you'll learn that the bottom is always even farther away than you thought it could be.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

cnsickles said:


> How many of you were as unlucky as I was to take on a Lowes site for snow removal that Merit was managing?
> I'm considering puting something together if I can get a few other contractors involved.


email me [email protected] thanks.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> email me [email protected] thanks.
> I knew that was you that randomly emailed me. What do you have a mole inside Merit that hooked you up with all there vendors email addresses?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Breech of contract and demand for cure letter my lawyer sent certified mail got them motivated to pay a good chunk. Progress anyway.


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## giggity (Oct 25, 2013)

I've never worked for them, but who ever they hired to do the lowes by me does horrible horrible work, I could not believe the piss poor work, even harder to believe lowes would hire these clowns in the first place


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

giggity said:


> I've never worked for them, but who ever they hired to do the lowes by me does horrible horrible work, I could not believe the piss poor work, even harder to believe lowes would hire these clowns in the first place


Probably because after the first storm they realize they are screwed


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

I had to submit a RFP for one of the major box stores this week. Attached to the RFP was a 100 question mandatory questionnaire. A good majority of the questions where geared towards the NSP’s. It had a lot of questions like how can you increase the level of service and how can you keep the revolving door of sub contractors from happening. Seeing that I’m not a NSP I used the questionnaire as my platform to sound off that NSP’s are the ones responsible for the quality of work going in the toilet. I didn’t hold much back and I named names of the dirtiest players in the industry. Who ever gets to read my answers should be thoroughly entertained because it will be very different from all the NSP’s answers of bragging about how big they are


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Masssnowfighter said:


> Probably because after the first storm they realize they are screwed


Just because the first offer is peanuts, doesn't mean the final number is peanuts.

However, if one is stupid enough to just roll over and play possum and take their numbers without doing their own figuring...well you deserve what you get.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Just because the first offer is peanuts, doesn't mean the final number is peanuts.
> 
> However, if one is stupid enough to just roll over and play possum and take their numbers without doing their own figuring...well you deserve what you get.


Weve gotten them to increase about 50% of their original offers on certain sites and then still turned them down.. was fun to see how high they would go up


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Just because the first offer is peanuts, doesn't mean the final number is peanuts.
> 
> However, if one is stupid enough to just roll over and play possum and take their numbers without doing their own figuring...well you deserve what you get.


Just because you negotiated a better number than was first offered...Does not mean it's a good number...I know what Lowe's..Home Depots go for in this area...About half of what they should be for someone doing all the work and taking all the risk...As long as the carousel of contractors willing to take these acounts continues...Pricing will not climb to what they should be...With all the site visits..Salting,Plowing,Walks,Puddle patrols...Your typical HD-Lowe's should be $50k minimum for anyone could claim to make a true healthy profit...I'm sure I will be called an idiot and a moron by others than Oomkes for saying this....But if people sat down and ran their true numbers on what it takes to service these accounts I think I would be proven right

Walmart In this area has cut out the NSP and is dealing with local contractors to take large chunks of stores....I also know what the pricing is on this...Almost double what the NSP was offering the year before...These sites are better managed with local control...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Why would you want to work for someone that doesn't want to work with you...they want to bleed every penny out of you that they can?

Why would you want to work for someone who tries telling you what your price should be?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I know what numbers I need to make the margins I want. If I get them, great. We can do business. If not, no hard feelings. You guys have your opinions, and I have mine. What you do works for you, and what I do clearly works for me. As long as I make the margins I want to make, am paid on time, and requests are reasonable, I could not care less who's name is on the check. Whether it's Merit or Brightview or SMS or Divisions or Walmart or Lowes direct if the margins are what I want, I'm happy.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Is be happy too if my per service/hour accounts subsidized my seasonal accounts.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

They don't.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

K


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

My margins will be getting better.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Is that a pin stripe down the side??...I think it’s time to switch the fleet to Oomkes Orange...Nice Truck...It will be a pleasure to drive it next winter...I will bring a “few” extra spinners in my suitcase


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

I got a question. What do you think the NSP’s mark up percentage is for being a big box store pimp?? I know what they offer them for and I know what I would actually do them for just curious what there percentage could actually be. For example, back when I worked for Merit I did 3 days of snow hauling for $30k. They where late paying the bill and blamed it on the customer not paying them. So I marched into there customers office to see if this was true. The customer quickly pulled up the invoice that was paid in full 90 days ago. But to my shock I was actually able to see what that they billed out my $30k job for. They tacked on a nice 100% mark up for doing absolutely nothing. So if they are offering stores for under $25k a season and are marking them up a 100% Defcons number of $50k is right on the mark of what they are actually going for??


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Masssnowfighter said:


> I got a question. What do you think the NSP's mark up percentage is for being a big box store pimp?? I know what they offer them for and I know what I would actually do them for just curious what there percentage could actually be. For example, back when I worked for Merit I did 3 days of snow hauling for $30k. They where late paying the bill and blamed it on the customer not paying them. So I marched into there customers office to see if this was true. The customer quickly pulled up the invoice that was paid in full 90 days ago. But to my shock I was actually able to see what that they billed out my $30k job for. They tacked on a nice 100% mark up for doing absolutely nothing. So if they are offering stores for under $25k a season and are marking them up a 100% Defcons number of $50k is right on the mark of what they are actually going for??


If they weren't making close to 100 percent, they wouldn't be doing it.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> K


Just because you've taken it upon yourself to assume what I posted meant that, does not mean it's true. Feel free to pm me or something else if youd like to discuss it further.

And I've seen some of the numbers for one of the NSP's I work for and they're nowhere near 100%. 10-30 depending on site. Can't speak to others.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the initial offerings sometimes are 50-75% from some of these companies though.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Defcon 5 said:


> Is that a pin stripe down the side??...I think it's time to switch the fleet to Oomkes Orange...Nice Truck...It will be a pleasure to drive it next winter...I will bring a "few" extra spinners in my suitcase


That's got a Cummings in it, I say we sneak in and de rate her down a 100 hp.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Masssnowfighter said:


> I got a question. What do you think the NSP's mark up percentage is for being a big box store pimp?? I know what they offer them for and I know what I would actually do them for just curious what there percentage could actually be. For example, back when I worked for Merit I did 3 days of snow hauling for $30k. They where late paying the bill and blamed it on the customer not paying them. So I marched into there customers office to see if this was true. The customer quickly pulled up the invoice that was paid in full 90 days ago. But to my shock I was actually able to see what that they billed out my $30k job for. They tacked on a nice 100% mark up for doing absolutely nothing. So if they are offering stores for under $25k a season and are marking them up a 100% Defcons number of $50k is right on the mark of what they are actually going for??


Yes sir....The Walmart's That we're through the NSP were in the $25k range...Now that it's direct and no middle man they are in the $50k range...These stores for the most part are better serviced and all the money is kept local


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> I know what numbers I need to make the margins I want. If I get them, great. We can do business. If not, no hard feelings. You guys have your opinions, and I have mine. What you do works for you, and what I do clearly works for me. As long as I make the margins I want to make, am paid on time, and requests are reasonable, I could not care less who's name is on the check. Whether it's Merit or Brightview or SMS or Divisions or Walmart or Lowes direct if the margins are what I want, I'm happy.





John_DeereGreen said:


> Breech of contract and demand for cure letter my lawyer sent certified mail got them motivated to pay a good chunk. Progress anyway.





John_DeereGreen said:


> I will say, they have paid some of our invoices. Far from all though.


If getting paid on some of your invoices but far from all. 
Having to send certified letters from your lawyer to get them motivated. 
If that works for you good. It doesnt work for me.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Yes sir....The Walmart's That we're through the NSP were in the $25k range...Now that it's direct and no middle man they are in the $50k range...These stores for the most part are better serviced and all the money is kept local


So what your saying is
Wal mart pays $50k range for snow removal.
The old way they paid $50k to NSP, NSP paid contractor $25k range and kept balance for crappy service.
The new way Wally pays contractor $50k and gets better service.
Sounds like Wally might be on to something.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> If getting paid on some of your invoices but far from all.
> Having to send certified letters from your lawyer to get them motivated.
> If that works for you good. It doesnt work for me.


Weird how stuff you say comes back to bite you...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

LapeerLandscape said:


> If getting paid on some of your invoices but far from all.
> Having to send certified letters from your lawyer to get them motivated.
> If that works for you good. It doesnt work for me.


I never once said that this situation works for me. Read the 5th sentence in the first quote of the three you quoted.

"Paid on time" is clearly in there...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Weird how stuff you say comes back to bite you...


Weird how not reading the entire post comes back to bite you...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Defcon 5 said:


> I'm sure I will be called an idiot and a moron by others than Oomkes for saying this...


Saved us all the typing...


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

I'm guessing the NSP's use to bid them in the $55k-$65k range but I'm thinking now they are probably bidding them in the low $40's, hence why they are offering them up for under $20k now. Plus on top of it, the RFP I just filled out had a mandatory 5% discount for every 100 stores rewarded, and it jumped up all the way to 25% discount if rewarded all the stores. I figure that 25% discount to be around 5-7 million in loss profits for any NSP that would be rewarded all the stores. I guess its easy to make up those lost profits when you don't pay your vendors though, lol


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Walmart In this area has cut out the NSP and is dealing with local contractors to take large chunks of stores....I also know what the pricing is on this...Almost double what the NSP was offering the year before...These sites are better managed with local control...


Funny they're doing the exact opposite here, taking control from managers and putting Arkansas in charge.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

jrs.landscaping said:


> Funny they're doing the exact opposite here, taking control from managers and putting Arkansas in charge.


Same here. Other than calling for service once a contractor has the work, the stores have almost no say in it now.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

If the stores have no say in the contract or service provider they should have no say in the service provided. I would tell them I don't work for you.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

That's one of the things I like about having multiple sites through one NSP. One field manager handles all of the stores calls, and requests that are within scope said manager contacts the contractor. Ones that aren't, I don't even hear about. Or for work that needs done out of scope, the field manager requests a price, gets it approved, and issues a PO. 

Again. It works for some. Doesn't work for others. That's the beauty of having your own business in the USA.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> That's one of the things I like about having multiple sites through one NSP. One field manager handles all of the stores calls, and requests that are within scope said manager contacts the contractor. Ones that aren't, I don't even hear about. Or for work that needs done out of scope, the field manager requests a price, gets it approved, and issues a PO.
> 
> Again. It works for some. Doesn't work for others. That's the beauty of having your own business in the USA.


Your so full of crap your eyes are brown....You like working for half of what the job should actually pay you ....Because you "like" dealing with one field manager...I owned my own business in the USA and quickly sold it when people like you were willing to do the work for half of what it should be...I sure hope you can keep up with all those new Ford payments when reality sets in


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Your so full of crap your eyes are brown....You like working for half of what the job should actually pay you ....Because you "like" dealing with one field manager...I owned my own business in the USA and quickly sold it when people like you were willing to do the work for half of what it should be...I sure hope you can keep up with all those new Ford payments when reality sets in


I think he said he paid cash for it because the interest rate wasnt right.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Defcon 5 said:


> Your so full of crap your eyes are brown....You like working for half of what the job should actually pay you ....Because you "like" dealing with one field manager...I owned my own business in the USA and quickly sold it when people like you were willing to do the work for half of what it should be...I sure hope you can keep up with all those new Ford payments when reality sets in


Actually, they're blue.

Do you have any clue what any of my accounts pay? Do you have any idea what my overhead is? Do you have any idea what margins I'm comfortable making? Do you have any idea what pricing the market in my area will bear? Do you have any idea what I own that's financed and what I own that's paid for?

Let me help you. The answers are: "no, no, no, no, and no" So until you do, mind your own business.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I think he said he paid cash for it because the interest rate wasnt right.


Yes, my new one is paid for. Only truck financed right now is my old personal truck. At 0%.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

enough with the personal attacks or the language


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

What did I post that was wrong? I don't recall anything.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

The contract for our local Wally World was $7,500 for 2016-2017. New service provider took over and offered $4,500 for 2017-2018. Contractor they had quit so they asked us to take it on. The correct answer was NO so that's what we told them. Another guy took it on though and he should have read the contract. April was included for snow as well as parking lot sweeping and garbage clean up all at no cost to the National. We had 3 snow events in April and the guy got no pay. So it is not only price or late payments that come into play but contract fine print will do you in with no recourse.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

wishfull said:


> The contract for our local Wally World was $7,500 for 2016-2017. New service provider took over and offered $4,500 for 2017-2018. Contractor they had quit so they asked us to take it on. The correct answer was NO so that's what we told them. Another guy took it on though and he should have read the contract. April was included for snow as well as parking lot sweeping and garbage clean up all at no cost to the National. We had 3 snow events in April and the guy got no pay. So it is not only price or late payments that come into play but contract fine print will do you in with no recourse.


God I hope you forgot some zeroes or are mistaken...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

wishfull said:


> The contract for our local Wally World was $7,500 for 2016-2017. New service provider took over and offered $4,500 for 2017-2018. Contractor they had quit so they asked us to take it on. The correct answer was NO so that's what we told them. Another guy took it on though and he should have read the contract. April was included for snow as well as parking lot sweeping and garbage clean up all at no cost to the National. We had 3 snow events in April and the guy got no pay. So it is not only price or late payments that come into play but contract fine print will do you in with no recourse.


Where is it, and how large is the lot?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

wishfull said:


> The contract for our local Wally World was $7,500 for 2016-2017. New service provider took over and offered $4,500 for 2017-2018. Contractor they had quit so they asked us to take it on. The correct answer was NO so that's what we told them. Another guy took it on though and he should have read the contract. April was included for snow as well as parking lot sweeping and garbage clean up all at no cost to the National. We had 3 snow events in April and the guy got no pay. So it is not only price or late payments that come into play but contract fine print will do you in with no recourse.


Wow.

Although reading the contract wouldn't make a lot of difference at those numbers. You're paying thousands and thousands to work already.

Who's the NSP?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Is that a pin stripe down the side??.


Yes...all of our trucks have that.



Defcon 5 said:


> I think it's time to switch the fleet to Oomkes Orange


It's already Oomkes green...can't you see?



Defcon 5 said:


> Nice Truck


Thanks...it should make some great margins for me and at least another million in sales.



Defcon 5 said:


> It will be a pleasure to drive it next winter


I thought you retired???



Defcon 5 said:


> I will bring a "few" extra spinners in my suitcase


Good...thought I would have to take them oot of your pay.



Randall Ave said:


> That's got a Cummings in it, I say we sneak in and de rate her down a 100 hp.


Good luck...I'm locked and loaded.

PS It's a Kitty Cat.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

No, I didn't forget any zeros and also no I'm not mistaken. This lot is in Alberta, Canada and covers about 3/4 of a sq. city block. I can't recall the name of the national right now but I believe they are out of Ontario. We worked for them years ago and they were never this cheap before so I don't know what is going on. But as you can see they did find someone to work for them. Funny thing though, the current contractor always called us scabs when we out bid him.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I used to do banks in my town with 9 parking spots that paid $6k lol.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

Yes, and these guys figured to do a Wally store for $4500. Well, they did. We just laughed as the contractor had 1 loader and 2 skids tied up for over 3 hours every time it snowed and they had to salt afterwards as well. They were required to be on call 24/7 in Dec. for Xmas shopping hours and to have equipment on site all day during a snow event with only 1" allowed to accumulate. Sanding was required if below this trigger for plowing. Wouldn't have taken this job on anyway at any price as we were booked solid and besides there were just too many little rules and stipulations that caused red flags flying every where.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Not buying that story at all


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> I used to do banks in my town with 9 parking spots that paid $6k lol.


Lol... I have walks that have made more with no lots... Someone is confused, lost or totally full of bovine excrement...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

$4500 a month???


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> $4500 a month???


Even that would be light.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I'd like to see the actual service agreement. Because either someone is fulla ****, or someone is getting boned. You'd have to be a complete blithering idiot to even think you're making money at that price. 

Unless it's like Mark said and a month and not a season. Even then, it's low.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

It's $4500 a season and call it whatever you want. I don't appreciate being called a liar by someone who don't know dick all about what I am talking about. I wrote that post to let people know of some of the BS that NSP's are trying to pull in my area. As I explained there was no way in h_ll I would even think of taking something like that on. And yes, someone is getting boned as you call it. It's a greedy contractor that likes to have all the work in town so he can tell everybody how important he is. Oh, and by the way he is also a blithering idiot.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

wishfull said:


> It's $4500 a season and call it whatever you want. I don't appreciate being called a liar by someone who don't know dick all about what I am talking about. I wrote that post to let people know of some of the BS that NSP's are trying to pull in my area. As I explained there was no way in h_ll I would even think of taking something like that on. And yes, someone is getting boned as you call it. It's a greedy contractor that likes to have all the work in town so he can tell everybody how important he is. Oh, and by the way he is also a blithering idiot.


I don't have a dog in this fight. I have never worked for an NSP (and never will) But how do you know how much the other contractor signed the contract for? Would he actually tell you that he took it for such a ridiculously low number?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

How's he still in business?


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

Every contractor in town was offered the job at that set price. I know one of his operators and he likes to talk so I listen. This contractor had worked for the NSP at this location 2 years prior to this and had been fired for poor performance. We were called in on hourly to complete the job. He was the last resort so they hired him back. The season was only 4 months long. His intentions were the same as he always does and that is to do a third or fourth rate job and collect for doing nothing. The old Wally World manager let him get away with it but the new one that showed up in the new year lived by the contract. How does he survive? By doubling, tripling or more even his billings over what they should be. He was caught on video by the school division having on 1 skid steer and one dump truck on site but billing them for 3 skids and 2 trucks. We have taken away most of his work because of this and he is grabbing at anything. He also does oilfield work where people are not so watchful as to what they get billed sometimes.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

I think most of what your saying is just hear say spread by one of the contractors operators and your getting this info second or third hand.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JustJeff said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight. I have never worked for an NSP (and never will) But how do you know how much the other contractor signed the contract for? Would he actually tell you that he took it for such a ridiculously low number?


I wouldn't tell nobody if I got it for $4500.00 or $50K, and if I did I would lie lol.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

*BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT. I KNOW WHAT I KNOW. *I am very meticulous how I get my information in order to run my business. I did not get my pricing information from no dead beat contractor but from a contract provided by the NSP. I am not stupid, as you people have suggested. I watch, listen and keep my mouth shut while I gather bits and pieces of information that can be cross verified which is what any SMART individual in business should do. I keep very close tabs on my competitors. The whole purpose of my post was to inform members of what I have run into dealing with NSP's and stupid contractors NOT get ridiculed or called a liar by a group of people who seem to have been members longer (number of postings) than I have. It appears that anything newer members here have to say is crap. Just for the record I have been around a lot longer than most of you so have a nice day.
P.S. FredG - You are right. A smart business person does not tell people his prices, good or bad but I did not say this guy was smart. Anyway I didn't get prices from him as I have already said.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

FredG said:


> I wouldn't tell nobody if I got it for $4500.00 or $50K, and if I did I would lie lol.


I for sure wouldnt tell anyone I got it for $4500. I would get laughed out of the county and laughed off of plowsite.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

Just for the record we are currently working for this NSP doing summer maintenance. We have worked for them on various locations before doing lawn maintenance and their area rep is a pretty easy guy to work with. His hands are tied by numbers handed him by head office and because of some cheap charlies in our area snow removal comes in cheap, cheap, cheap. Everyone here wants to have bragging rights as to how many big lots they are doing. They all go cheap. Lots almost as big as Wally World are going for $400 to $500 per push. I like it 'cause it keeps these yahoos out of my hair. Grounds maintenance seems to fall into a different category and prices have remained good. And because we are currently working for and plan on to continue working for this NSP names are being withheld for obvious reasons. Never kiss and tell or burn your bridges. Whatever.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

wishfull said:


> *BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT. I KNOW WHAT I KNOW. *I am very meticulous how I get my information in order to run my business. I did not get my pricing information from no dead beat contractor but from a contract provided by the NSP. I am not stupid, as you people have suggested. I watch, listen and keep my mouth shut while I gather bits and pieces of information that can be cross verified which is what any SMART individual in business should do. I keep very close tabs on my competitors. The whole purpose of my post was to inform members of what I have run into dealing with NSP's and stupid contractors NOT get ridiculed or called a liar by a group of people who seem to have been members longer (number of postings) than I have. It appears that anything newer members here have to say is crap. Just for the record I have been around a lot longer than most of you so have a nice day.
> P.S. FredG - You are right. A smart business person does not tell people his prices, good or bad but I did not say this guy was smart. Anyway I didn't get prices from him as I have already said.


Just because some may tell you that they don't believe your story doesn't mean you're stupid or a liar. Nobody called you stupid or a liar.

I will suggest you're somewhat immature to aggressively pull the age card claiming you've been around "a lot longer than most" of us. For that to be true you must be in your 70's or 80's. Not buying that either.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

wishfull said:


> It appears that anything newer members here have to say is crap.


Please...put the microaggression card away.



wishfull said:


> Just for the record I have been around a lot longer than most of you so have a nice day.


Not that it matters because I could be a 15 YO girl from South Beach, but why don't you say how long you've been around?

I haven't been around very long. Registered at lawnsite in '99. Been in the industry since I was 8 (slave labor for my dad) and full time since I've been out of high school. 31 years full time. Company has been around since 1932. My dad bought in '62, I bought it from him in '00. You can find it on our website.

You won't even post your location.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

wishfull said:


> *BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT. I KNOW WHAT I KNOW. *I am very meticulous how I get my information in order to run my business. I did not get my pricing information from no dead beat contractor but from a contract provided by the NSP. I am not stupid, as you people have suggested. I watch, listen and keep my mouth shut while I gather bits and pieces of information that can be cross verified which is what any SMART individual in business should do. I keep very close tabs on my competitors. The whole purpose of my post was to inform members of what I have run into dealing with NSP's and stupid contractors NOT get ridiculed or called a liar by a group of people who seem to have been members longer (number of postings) than I have. It appears that anything newer members here have to say is crap. Just for the record I have been around a lot longer than most of you so have a nice day.
> P.S. FredG - You are right. A smart business person does not tell people his prices, good or bad but I did not say this guy was smart. Anyway I didn't get prices from him as I have already said.


Well how long you been around? I'm 60 And believe I'm one of the elder members, Whats your location sometimes it is easier to figure out where your coming from in a discussion. I certainly don't think anyone called you a liar, maybe misinformed.

You have to admit $4500.00 is just not possible even if you weren't not to bright. A good snow year I would think you would figure out the first couple weeks it's time to get fired. You would be paying them to perform snow and ice.

Around here there is a different Contractor every year out of the 5 interested in the job every season.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Again, I could really care less about this topic. But just for the hell of it....Based on what I've heard everybody else say about subbing for a NSP, it sounds like once they offer you a number (regardless of how low it is), that counter offers are often made, and people sign contracts for more than what the initial offer was. So, if you and three other contractors were offered 4,500 to do it, it doesn't mean that that's what the final numbers on the contract were. Correct?


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

$4,500 doesn't even cover the cost to purchase salt........


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## Freshwater (Feb 28, 2014)

wishfull said:


> Every contractor in town was offered the job at that set price. I know one of his operators and he likes to talk so I listen. This contractor had worked for the NSP at this location 2 years prior to this and had been fired for poor performance. We were called in on hourly to complete the job. He was the last resort so they hired him back. The season was only 4 months long. His intentions were the same as he always does and that is to do a third or fourth rate job and collect for doing nothing. The old Wally World manager let him get away with it but the new one that showed up in the new year lived by the contract. How does he survive? By doubling, tripling or more even his billings over what they should be. He was caught on video by the school division having on 1 skid steer and one dump truck on site but billing them for 3 skids and 2 trucks. We have taken away most of his work because of this and he is grabbing at anything. He also does oilfield work where people are not so watchful as to what they get billed sometimes.


Forgive me but I'm a bit confused. Is this account 4500 seasonal or is he billing hourly per machine on site allowing him to lie about how many machines he's using to make more money?


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

LapeerLandscape said:


> I for sure wouldnt tell anyone I got it for $4500. I would get laughed out of the county and laughed off of plowsite.


Some people like to spread rumours about cheap prices so no one else bothers bidding on it. Same as farmers telling people very high cash rents so other farmers don't even bother trying to rent it for another year.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Freshwater said:


> Forgive me but I'm a bit confused. Is this account 4500 seasonal or is he billing hourly per machine on site allowing him to lie about how many machines he's using to make more money?


The answer is yes, what was the question?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Please...put the microaggression card away.
> 
> Not that it matters because I could be a 15 YO girl from South Beach, but why don't you say how long you've been around?
> 
> ...


He said the lot was in Alberta Ca.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

JustJeff said:


> Again, I could really care less about this topic. But just for the hell of it....Based on what I've heard everybody else say about subbing for a NSP, it sounds like once they offer you a number (regardless of how low it is), that counter offers are often made, and people sign contracts for more than what the initial offer was. So, if you and three other contractors were offered 4,500 to do it, it doesn't mean that that's what the final numbers on the contract were. Correct?


Your EX I guess I would call them contacted me about a property they picked up that I had actually done for the past 10 years here in town. They asked what I did it for and said that's what we bid but we normally offer 50% of that... I said ok good luck... Called back said what we would you do it for? I did come down a bit as it still made money... Not sure if I consider them a NSP yet but 50% offer... I said you realize we average 66" on the other side of the lake here...


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

JD Dave said:


> Some people like to spread rumours about cheap prices so no one else bothers bidding on it. Same as farmers telling people very high cash rents so other farmers don't even bother trying to rent it for another year.


Speaking of farmers, 2 locals (I know them both) got into a fist fight today over a some rented land. One guy ended up with a dislocated shoulder and the other guys wife took him to the hospital. Talk about messed up.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Your EX I guess I would call them contacted me about a property they picked up that I had actually done for the past 10 years here in town. They asked what I did it for and said that's what we bid but we normally offer 50% of that... I said ok good luck... Called back said what we would you do it for? I did come down a bit as it still made money... Not sure if I consider them a NSP yet but 50% offer... I said you realize we average 66" on the other side of the lake here...


50%? Damn. See, I was just an hourly guy for them. Never had a single contract for a single piece of property with them seasonal or per push. They'd just send me all over the place for an hourly rate. No, I still don't consider them an NSP, as they're relatively local, but the practice that you just mentioned sure puts them in the same category. When was this? Prior to last Winter? Not now I'm assuming.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

JustJeff said:


> 50%? Damn. See, I was just an hourly guy for them. Never had a single contract for a single piece of property with them seasonal or per push. They'd just send me all over the place for an hourly rate. No, I still don't consider them an NSP, as they're relatively local, but the practice that you just mentioned sure puts them in the same category. When was this? Prior to last Winter? Not now I'm assuming.


Yeah this past Winter so back in Nov I think it was when we talked... Money was good so no complaints at all with them for that.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Did you end up taking the contract from them?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

JustJeff said:


> Did you end up taking the contract from them?


Yes we did it through them this past year...


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Well, as long as you were able to still profit off it. But still, offering 50%. That sounds like what I have been dealing with for the past two years. I've ended up with some pretty good prices, and some "fair" prices. But they tried to get me cheap both years, and I had to negotiate HARD to get to the final numbers that I found acceptable.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> Well, as long as you were able to still profit off it. But still, offering 50%. That sounds like what I have been dealing with for the past two years. I've ended up with some pretty good prices, and some "fair" prices. But they tried to get me cheap both years, and I had to negotiate HARD to get to the final numbers that I found acceptable.


Which leads to the question...what is the difference between a regional company like SS and an NSP? If the game is the same, what is the benifit?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

LapeerLandscape said:


> He said the lot was in Alberta Ca.


This means it's $4500cdn?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> This means it's $4500cdn?


It sounds like loonies and toonies to me.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Which leads to the question...what is the difference between a regional company like SS and an NSP? If the game is the same, what is the benifit?


Less distance to drive your truck through their office...


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Which leads to the question...what is the difference between a regional company like SS and an NSP? If the game is the same, what is the benifit?


Maybe none. Other than one is an NSP, and one is a RSP (Regional Service Provider). Except that, I've been fortunate to always be paid from both RSP's without having to jump through "too many" hoops. I've never had to jump through the hoops that many people do to get paid. Although I have had to argue a little bit once to get paid. I don't know, maybe the difference is minimal. Also, I don't know if NSPs do "per push" accounts, and only do seasonals?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

JustJeff said:


> Maybe none. Other than one is an NSP, and one is a RSP (Regional Service Provider). Except that, I've been fortunate to always be paid from both RSP's without having to jump through "too many" hoops. I've never had to jump through the hoops that many people do to get paid. Although I have had to argue a little bit once to get paid. I don't know, maybe the difference is minimal. Also, I don't know if NSPs do "per push" accounts, and only do seasonals?


At least the locals actually have, trucks, blades, loaders etc... I believe certain NSP just have an office, maybe...


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Well that didn't take long to hit the cutting room floor. 

Jeff...Most of the work I've done is seasonal, however I've seen plenty of per service work also. That's how most of the lowes sites were priced.


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## wishfull (Nov 22, 2017)

My apologies to all but I have just had a bad week. A recent death in the immediate family has put me on edge. No excuse really but it's all I got. Again sorry. As to my age I am going on 69. My location, Saying I am in Alberta is more information than I usually give on the net. $4500 covering a salt bill. Not likely but in my area sand/salt brine is what is used. Cheap and goes a long way. He tried to get away with using 3/4 crush gravel. He has approached our customers and offered to work for free just to get work away from us and other contractors as well. So taking on a loosing proposition like Walmart means nothing to him. When money gets tight his Daddy bails him out. I know that what I have said may seem like BS but it isn't. I don't like BS from anyone. I wasn't raised that way. And Mark Oomkes I know a little bit about you and your family and I have great respect for what you and your family have accomplished. 
As to whether or not he took the price of $4500 or not no I don't suppose I could swear on a stack of bibles that it was so. But considering said contractor had been fired by this NSP before and everyone else turned down the offer of $4500 it would seem strange that they would offer it back to him at a higher rate. 
Take what I have said anyway you want cause I am all done in. I have family things to do.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Speaking of farmers, 2 locals (I know them both) got into a fist fight today over a some rented land. One guy ended up with a dislocated shoulder and the other guys wife took him to the hospital. Talk about messed up.


I'm thinking I would try to walk away, If he badgered me I might club him.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

wishfull said:


> My apologies to all but I have just had a bad week. A recent death in the immediate family has put me on edge. No excuse really but it's all I got. Again sorry. As to my age I am going on 69. My location, Saying I am in Alberta is more information than I usually give on the net. $4500 covering a salt bill. Not likely but in my area sand/salt brine is what is used. Cheap and goes a long way. He tried to get away with using 3/4 crush gravel. He has approached our customers and offered to work for free just to get work away from us and other contractors as well. So taking on a loosing proposition like Walmart means nothing to him. When money gets tight his Daddy bails him out. I know that what I have said may seem like BS but it isn't. I don't like BS from anyone. I wasn't raised that way. And Mark Oomkes I know a little bit about you and your family and I have great respect for what you and your family have accomplished.
> As to whether or not he took the price of $4500 or not no I don't suppose I could swear on a stack of bibles that it was so. But considering said contractor had been fired by this NSP before and everyone else turned down the offer of $4500 it would seem strange that they would offer it back to him at a higher rate.
> Take what I have said anyway you want cause I am all done in. I have family things to do.


You don't have to go away, It's not a big thing, JD Dave is spot on, just the way it is. I had a small Ramada it was like $10K for the season, I told everybody I had it for 20K if someone asked.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

FredG said:


> You don't have to go away, It's not a big thing, JD Dave is spot on, just the way it is. I had a small Ramada it was like $10K for the season, I told everybody I had it for 20K if someone asked.


I do the same thing, spread disinformation like crazy to keep the parking lot poachers at bay. Depending on who is fishing for information from me I tell the legit operations that I do it for peanuts and I tell the guys with a pick up and a skid steer that I do it for 5x what I actually get. I also keep every extra piece of equipment I own on site for extra intimidation factor. When people ask I tell them the JD850 dozer and the Oshkosh blower truck is a part of the scope of work


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Masssnowfighter said:


> I do the same thing, spread disinformation like crazy to keep the parking lot poachers at bay. Depending on who is fishing for information from me I tell the legit operations that I do it for peanuts and I tell the guys with a pick up and a skid steer that I do it for 5x what I actually get. I also keep every extra piece of equipment I own on site for extra intimidation factor. When people ask I tell them the JD850 dozer and the Oshkosh blower truck is a part of the scope of work


Some people really dont have a clue do they.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Masssnowfighter said:


> I do the same thing, spread disinformation like crazy to keep the parking lot poachers at bay. Depending on who is fishing for information from me I tell the legit operations that I do it for peanuts and I tell the guys with a pick up and a skid steer that I do it for 5x what I actually get. I also keep every extra piece of equipment I own on site for extra intimidation factor. When people ask I tell them the JD850 dozer and the Oshkosh blower truck is a part of the scope of work


It's possible I may help a new Guy on his own work, If your trying to get info on something I'm doing, I'm lying, Most with a little brains would not ask anyways being they know there not going to get the truth.


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## Masssnowfighter (Sep 22, 2012)

The competitors with little brains usually ask me questions like, how many years you have left in your contact? Or how long does that take to plow? Or how much money do you spend on salt a year? Always gotta be on guard against poachers


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What eggzactly was the issue?
> 
> And for one respondent, after all that has been said about them, why would you contract with them???


Those be warned, merit claims they're two seperate companies, the "old" merit that owes everyone money from literally forever until end of 2016, and then the "new" merit , which its literally the same company except someone bought them, but didn't want to inherit their previous debts? So you may be now working for the "new" merit that owes everyone too... nothing has changed. in NJ alone there are dozens of lawsuits and judgments against them.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

PA NSP offered us $50k on a tiered "seasonal" billing basis for a large site. So as soon as it snows the first time "the first storm that produces .1" or more, we bill $50k for 0.1-9.99", we'd bill similar for the next 10.01-19.99", however we received 8.4" and multiple cold days resulting in excessive deicing for Dec 2017, and they lost the contract with the site by Xmas. Was purely their fault, once i spoke with site management company, they explained their requirements, such as xx amount of equipment on site PRIOR to nov 15th, we were hired the first week of december. NSP claimed they won't get paid and so can't pay us. Then i find out from the contractor who took "back" over, from doing the site for almost 10 years prior, that this NSP received a $100k up front retainer for December 2017 already. They were going to make $100k a month for 4 months and our max at like 60" of snow was under $200k. Its nearly August, have not received a dime from them.

To make matters worse, while we serviced the large site in Dec 2017, the NSP owner was calling/texting me directly to salt/calcium OTHER job sites locally for his other subs who 

1. Ran out of salt.
2. can't get in touch with them
3. havn't shown up and customer is irate.

So we invoiced at their request an additional $10k, which they said they accepted the invoices and were going to pay within 30 days, nothing.

So $60k for that one NSP and zilch. 

We did work for 3 seperate NSPs, 2 in NJ and that one in PA last year, thinking local, local guys, local companies, ease of dealing with any issues that pop up, nope. The NJ NSP "not merit" owes by far the most. Serviced 4 MAJOR sites for them and a handful of smaller sites, during the 17" blizzard 1/4/2018, they offered us peanuts on the invoices after all was said and done then negated and said they never signed "their" end of their own contract to execute. They offered to pay us 15% of what was invoiced.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

jrs.landscaping said:


> $4,500 doesn't even cover the cost to purchase salt........


$4,500 doesn't even come close to the insurance cost in NJ. If you plowed ONE walmart, finding the right insurance company that will bind the policy and write the cert will be damned difficult, and at that, they'll probably wallop you with a MAJOR cost for this. I would assume $12-25k range depending on losses and your company size and equipment for a 250k-425k walmart in NJ. Now you can buy salt, deicer for sidewalks, labor, equipment etc... AND you know you're rate is going to go up because you'll get at least 2-3 slip and fall claims per walmart per season even if you had zero snow.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Ramair....please give it up...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> $4,500 doesn't even come close to the insurance cost in NJ. If you plowed ONE walmart, finding the right insurance company that will bind the policy and write the cert will be damned difficult, and at that, they'll probably wallop you with a MAJOR cost for this. I would assume $12-25k range depending on losses and your company size and equipment for a 250k-425k walmart in NJ. Now you can buy salt, deicer for sidewalks, labor, equipment etc... AND you know you're rate is going to go up because you'll get at least 2-3 slip and fall claims per walmart per season even if you had zero snow.


Talk about a broken record...judas priest on a pony, every time you post that you're getting screwed by another NSP it proves how stupid you are.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

I agree...think we've all heard it enough and no reason to keep bumping it up


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