# State of Ohio Inspector Generals office report of rock salt pricing



## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

I thought that all of you should see this legal 
document and read it.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

I doubt anyone here will read 53 pages of a PDF doc.  

Hows about a rundown of what it says and using page numbers to reference back to pertinent items stated. Thumbs Up


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

Unless there is something in there about using jet engines in lieu of rock salt............................... I ain't reading it


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*salt*



REAPER;1239498 said:


> I doubt anyone here will read 53 pages of a PDF doc.
> 
> Hows about a rundown of what it says and using page numbers to reference back to pertinent items stated. Thumbs Up


Its really a fast read and funny with all the lies, and internal
e-mails that were subject to the subpheona.

Every page is pertinent including the price 
gouging and blocking other suppliers of 
Halite from offering bids
because of the BUY OHIO RULE.

The material is not technical or boring I can assure you of that.

It really gets interesting because of substituted salt from
Louisiana and Canadian Halite claiming to be Halite 
mined under the State of Ohio portion of Lake Erie.

Central Salt was blocked out because of the salt it buys from 
North American Salt at the Cote Blanche Mine near Franklin,
Louisiana, American Rock Salt was blocked from bidding as 
its salt is mined under New York State and not Ohio.

Some of you may be contracting with the haulage firms 
mentioned as well.

Maybe this is enough of a teaser now.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*Halite*

OK>>>>>>>>>>>>>.............................

Page 4 Cargills profit margins were 4,000% higher in the winter of 2007-08 than in a neighboring state- guess who?

page 5 Cargills Tony Dipietro a former ODOT employee provided $4,700.00 USD in Gratuities to an ODOT official and several northeastern Ohio public employees and officials.

page 5 Grainger truckings vice president Frank Bianchi spent several thousand dollars in gratuities in the name of promoting Cargill.

Page 9 Ohio governor ted strickland asked the OIG office to investigate the mess when salt bids jumoed from 19 percent to 236 percent in price in the fall of 2008.

There is a lot more and its better than a soap opera!!!!


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## pvtben121 (Aug 22, 2010)

SO I READ MOST OF THIS and odot is mad cause cargill and morton supposedly cost taxpayers a extra 30 million due to non competing bids 
like on the OH PA border ohio counties were on avg $10 more a ton than PA counties even though the salt was coming from cleveland/
also more than likely the 2 salt companies would not bid angainest each other in ohios 88 counties but if they did one would raise there price 30 dollars higher per ton so they knew which one would win 

but in the end it is ODOT'S fault cause cargill execs were giving browns tickets to odot personell for accepting there bids


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## clark lawn (Oct 7, 2005)

some of it is also that it costs a lot more to do business and transport it in Ohio than it does to take it across state lines. when i used to drive truck i aske the boss about the way we hauled some things and he explained it that it is cheaper to cross state lines than to run a intrastate. ( we were hauling salt in coal buckets at the time)


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

Again it all boils down to a corrupt government. Wether it was ODOT letting these two compaines get away with it, or accepting bribes in the way of Browns tickets. (I personally think that ODOT should have held out for a better bribe than Browns tickets. I mean Disney on ice had to come to North East Ohio at some point, LOL) The problem is the state of Ohio just spent another million dollars to find out that someone screwed them out of 40 or 50 million more, and probably won't do a damn thing about it. They might fire a couple people, or ask to recoup some portion of that amount off of next years salt bill, but Ohio is a good old boys state. Everything will just go away if you don't stare at it too long.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*ohio salt etc.*



Rc2505;1239761 said:


> Again it all boils down to a corrupt government. Wether it was ODOT letting these two compaines get away with it, or accepting bribes in the way of Browns tickets. (I personally think that ODOT should have held out for a better bribe than Browns tickets. I mean Disney on ice had to come to North East Ohio at some point, LOL) The problem is the state of Ohio just spent another million dollars to find out that someone screwed them out of 40 or 50 million more, and probably won't do a damn thing about it. They might fire a couple people, or ask to recoup some portion of that amount off of next years salt bill, but Ohio is a good old boys state. Everything will just go away if you don't stare at it too long.


I have often wondered about their collective method of doing things for sure as I wanted to apply for an open State of Ohio Mine Inspectors position, and I had at the time 22 years of underground and surface mine experience and they told me that since I have no Ohio Mine experience that they would not accept my application or consider it.......................................


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Nice find, Leon! I was wondering if anything would come of Ohio's shenanigans from a few years back. In general, OH is pretty forthcoming with information, so it wasn't hard to find out what happened. Interestingly, IL's Inspector General did a similar investigation into FY '09 ('08/'09 season), and found basically "no unusual practices"--which is a complete load of crap. BUT, OH "buy Ohio" plicy is the dumbest thing I've ever heard--it essentially allows ONLY Morton & Cargill into the bid. Yeah, because their people _never_ got together to make the bids nice & juicy....

:laughing:


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

That's only one chapter of the story. If folks only knew the trickle down effect caused by a few, they would have a better understanding as to why an entire market is so out of sink, and beyond repair. I'm in my 24th year and the corruption existed long before I started.


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## SF Supply (Nov 24, 2010)

coldcoffee;1239871 said:


> That's only one chapter of the story. If folks only knew the trickle down effect caused by a few, they would have a better understanding as to why an entire market is so out of sink, and beyond repair. I'm in my 24th year and the corruption existed long before I started.


First I want to commend Leon on finding this. I read it about a month ago because I was informed some "friends" of mine were mentioned in this document. In a former life I dealt with Morton, Cargill, NASC and their truckers too.

I also agree with Coldcoffee that this had been going on before I was around some 31yrs ago. I think my dad was one of the few to bring Domtar salt into Northeast Ohio back in the early 1970's and compete against the big boys. However he only brought it in one season.

Those in and around the salt/transportation industry know how things are run here in Ohio. It's an undercurrent of business activity rarely spoke of.

Will be interesting to see if anything comes of this investigation or it's just filed and forgotten.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Sounds a lot like IL. Except that our boys would never allow such a damaging report to even see the light of day.

Where else does a state send governors pensions to a penitentiary? 

:laughing:


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## pvtben121 (Aug 22, 2010)

sounds like we are all in the wrong line of buisness we need to go work for cargill and morton


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

SF Supply;1239945 said:


> First I want to commend Leon on finding this. I read it about a month ago because I was informed some "friends" of mine were mentioned in this document. In a former life I dealt with Morton, Cargill, NASC and their truckers too.
> 
> I also agree with Coldcoffee that this had been going on before I was around some 31yrs ago. I think my dad was one of the few to bring Domtar salt into Northeast Ohio back in the early 1970's and compete against the big boys. However he only brought it in one season.
> 
> ...


I also commend Leon, I didn't at all mean to devaluate he or his post. I've learned a great deal from some of his posts, and am always looking forward to his next. A very intelligent man with a vast amount of knowledge. After I reread my post, I realized it may not have been received that way. Please accept my apology.

It's the trucking/ transportation side that I'm referring to, as I don't know what happens under ground, or behind closed doors.

Hopefully, this will be a start to putting some things back into perspective.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

And hopefully the other states who got ram-rodded in the last few years will take notice, and re-think their blind ass purchasing procedures.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

toby4492;1239510 said:


> Unless there is something in there about using jet engines in lieu of rock salt............................... I ain't reading it


:laughing::laughing:......Bring on " The Jet Engines"


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

toby4492;1239510 said:


> Unless there is something in there about using jet engines in lieu of rock salt............................... I ain't reading it


If they threw a few links to pictures of naked women it would garner more reads. :laughing:


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1240021 said:


> Where else does a state send governors pensions to a penitentiary?
> 
> :laughing:


Politicians should be limited to two terms. One in office and one in prison. They already do this in IL.

:laughing:


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*Ohio Halite follies*



coldcoffee;1240103 said:


> I also commend Leon, I didn't at all mean to devaluate he or his post. I've learned a great deal from some of his posts, and am always looking forward to his next. A very intelligent man with a vast amount of knowledge. After I reread my post, I realized it may not have been received that way. Please accept my apology.
> 
> It's the trucking/ transportation side that I'm referring to, as I don't know what happens under ground, or behind closed doors.
> 
> Hopefully, this will be a start to putting some things back into perspective.


No offense taken,

If you only knew what goes on to this day...................................................................

Halite mineral rights are purchased on a per acre basis under the landmass mineral rights 
purchased by the family owned company which started the mine in the year 1913
from the various landowners which surrounded the individual mines central location.

Its ironic as the original plan was to establish a chlorine refinery at this location and at the same time a chlorine plant was being established in either Delaware or Maryland-I dont remember which state but this changed the familys plan of operation and the deep mine was established as good clean rock free Halite salt was needed for explosives manufacture, food and fish canneries, tanneries, dyeing of fabrics, and many other uses which require salt.

Halite for road use was a non existant secondary market for the mines as the clean halite was used for many other things.

Our government induced and blessed interstate highway mess is what created the need for deicing salts and this market and the need for halite for consumer use was a secondary market which is what you folks are to the salt suppliers.

The "Management Companies" that will remain "nameles" are also a secondary customers.

As I mentioned salt shortages are a farce as the dreaded words SALT ALLOCATION for priority customers MEANING every municipality that buys Halite for deicing UUUGGGGHHHH!!!, and you all lose and pay more for a product.

I dont miss having salt hit my home when the county was doing the job and wasting my tax dollars. The roads are better managed and dry for the most part and the temperatures are colder limiting the need for Halite.

Dont forget the Dreaded Words "BARE ROAD POLICY" which is non existant on paper is the rule that is followed and miss managed by all concerned when sand can do the job for less money.

We as a driving public created this mess with the emergence of the automobile and the loss of interurban trolley service and street cars and our dependence upon the automobile which is a monster of our own making.

People fail to understand that if it were not for John D, Rockefellor and the Standard Oil trust and and the others like Magnolia Oil company which was the parent of Texaco-I think, convinced Henry Ford to use gasoline instead of kerosene as gasoline was a waste byproduct in the refining of kerosene which was the primary fossil fuel used by everyone at the time. Things would be very different now as we would have reliable battery operated vehicles as they were also forced out of existance by the privately held major bus companies at the time that owned many of the bus services in major cities.

If you really want to understand this mess you need to read the book "Internal Combustion"
to see how we have been poisoned by this issue which also relates to the Halite Business and the Bare Roads Policy.

Governmental Mineral Leases which involve Individual state governments and or Canadian provinces also involve the payment of royalties per ton mined of the ores taken under or on state lands.

In Cargills case; they pay the State of New York twenty five cents per ton mined of Halite that is hoisted out of the mine at Lansing, New York They have been paying the State of New York for this priviledge since 1983 when the mining area under the east south east was abandoned due to the bad ground conditions which involves a very heavy layer of rock overburden. The sedimentary rock layer is 3,300 feet deep at that location of the No. 6 salt seam where the mining was halted in 1983 and mining was commenced under Cayuga Lake at that time where the rock covering the No. 6 Salt seam is only 1,900 feet deep on average where the lake bottom depth is 400 feet deep.

The Cargill and Morton Halite Mines are mining under Lake Erie in north, east, and west directions from Painsville, Ohio and Cleveland, Ohio to take full advantage of the very low convergence rates of the sedimentary rock above the salt seam as mining under water offers the lowest ground pressure per square foot above the very thick salt seam being mined . The other added added advantage is that Lake Erie has an average lake bottom depth of forty feet (from what I remember) which reduces the stress of convergence on the mined areas and the actual mining faces.

Its really a shame and ironic in the scheme of things as hammermilled limestone 
(of which billions of tons of limestone in sedimentary deposits exist above and below the Sillurian salt beds in the northeast and central United States and Canada) can be used for the same purpose and the rust and corrosion issues would be almost non existant much to a typical body shops dismay.

:waving::yow!:


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Wait, limestone in lieu of halite?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1240917 said:


> Wait, limestone in lieu of halite?


Maybe it is laced with Kerosene.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

cretebaby;1241070 said:


> Maybe it is laced with Kerosene.


:laughing::laughing:...I hear The State of Ohio is starting to use Kerosene as a Pre-Wet for their Salt....

They are trying to offset the cost of being ripped off By Morton and Cargill


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Then after they lay down the Kerosene laced Salt...They come along with the Kerosene Fired jet Engine and ignite the Salt....That is a sight to see........:waving:


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*Halite*



Westhardt Corp.;1240917 said:


> Wait, limestone in lieu of halite?


Yes hammer milled limestone,

Our county airport used it for years until 1987 when the quarry 
owner raised the price of the milled limestone to a point greater
than the cost of Halite.

The hailte was $21.00 U.S.D. per ton at the time and the quarry owner 
foolishly raised the price of the milled limestone as our county and 
another one nearby were his only customer at the time.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*salt etc.*

I will see your kerosene coated 
Halite with:my new space heater: LOL

It has a 125,000 B.T.U., burner.

It also has a thermostat and a fuel guage.

The tank has a ten gallon capacity.

I can burn JP8, K1 Kerosene, No.1 & 2 Diesel fuel,

and No.1 and 2 Diesel fuel.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

_Burn _JP8?

:laughing:


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

It just keeps getting Better and Better........


Leon...Any Thoughts on Napalm?????......


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*Halite*



Westhardt Corp.;1241837 said:


> _Burn _JP8?
> 
> :laughing:


Yes,

the fuel use type sticker it says I can 
burn JP8 which is the military equivalent 
of Jet A-1 which is also NATO code F-34


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*Halite*



leon;1241519 said:


> I will see your kerosene coated
> Halite with:my new space heater: LOL
> 
> It has a 125,000 B.T.U., burner.
> ...


whoopsie


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

I wonder how many BTUs you'd get out of enriched uranium??

:laughing:


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

hell, at this point might as well throw down some magnesium shavings then light it up. you'll get a light show along with your ice melting abilities!


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