# why sand



## mxer71 (Feb 24, 2010)

I was wondering why guys use sand instead of salt etc does it melt ice and snow or just anti skid. Also does anyone use fly ash for anti skid?


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

It is used for traction, usually in areas that don't have much salt deposits.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Sometimes it's used in conjunction with liquid de-icers where a traction concern is present as well....The county where I live mixes sand,salt and grit(stonedust) for most of the roads, I think it's a ridiculous waste, but I guess it saves tax dollars in the long run, I mean it doesn't work nearly as well as atraight salt, they have to sweep it up, it makes a mess and people slide on the crap all the time.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

ajslands;1055860 said:


> It is used for traction, usually in areas that don't have much salt deposits.


Used to be in our area that temps were too low for salt, the sand added traction and caught sunlight in the day to heat surface temps & melt the ice. Dosn't get nearly that cold nowadays.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*sand etc.*

Here in new york they started using salt in the university towns because it was cheap and the Model T and Model A could not climb our east hill for example, due to the snow and ice, in the high plains they use volcanic ash as salt does not work that well and they need the traction.

They used salt religiously here instead of a salt sand mix and to much anyway and it kills a lot of vegetation. Every year they do a water quality survey around the Finger Lakes and most if not all the streams and ditches have water that is equivalent to sea water in salinity every year.

Since the state has relieved the counties of plowing and salting the roads are better and less salt is used and sand is used more as it should be. especially on our hills as they are steep and these people do not buy snow tires!

And sand costs less to buy anyway-

In his ultimate wisdom our supreme commander in the local highway department stated that sand costs more than salt this winter in a story in the local rag and I fell out of my chair!!!. :laughing:

The man is not an accountant apparently by any means stating salt cause damage to the infrastructure and salt is simply a convenience and leaves little residue and other than the increased salinity in surface waters ands water wells which is only diluted by rain and snow loads.

They stopped using ground limestone for deicing at out jet rated airport because it went up in price in 1987 as salt was about 18 dollars a ton then.

Twas a foolish move due to the corrosion and rust damage to machinery and wiring shorts in runway lights.

OH and BTW the 200 plus lbs per lane mile of salt spreading is not written in stone as a requirement for our state roads it is only a recommendation.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

They don't use sand here because we have a Large salt deposit and it cloggs the drains!


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

ajslands;1055900 said:


> They don't use sand here because we have a Large salt deposit and it cloggs the drains!


true but it helps when they are cleaned on a regular basis.

yup it is part of the upper Salina Salt Formation


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

They never clean the drains here! And their filled with like 4 ft of muck


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## mxer71 (Feb 24, 2010)

Do they use just any old sand, can you use any spreader say a undertail gate and wont ruin the machine?


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

mxer71;1055922 said:


> Do they use just any old sand, can you use any spreader say a undertail gate and wont ruin the machine?


no! i think you have to have an auger, and a vibrator. snow ex makes a sand pro. im pretty sure most v boxxes can take sand


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

We go through quite a few yards of "treated" sand every winter. It's use is reserved to non-paved areas, IE: gravel. If you ever try salting a gravel lot, odd's are you will never do it again.

The sand used has many names. Here, we typicall call it "Torpedo sand", but it's often reffered to as "sharp" sand, "concrete" sand, and many other names.


And Leon, I've heard from are municipalities and HWY. Dept. that they consider the use of sand more expensive as well. I don't believe they're reffering to the actual material cost, but the service cost to clean the streets & storm sewer, etc...... I'm not saying I concur with that opinion either though............


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

i wonder what would happen if you used polymeric sand


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*sand etc.*




jomama45;1055931 said:


> We go through quite a few yards of "treated" sand every winter. It's use is reserved to non-paved areas, IE: gravel. If you ever try salting a gravel lot, odd's are you will never do it again.
> 
> The sand used has many names. Here, we typicall call it "Torpedo sand", but it's often reffered to as "sharp" sand, "concrete" sand, and many other names.
> 
> And Leon, I've heard from are municipalities and HWY. Dept. that they consider the use of sand more expensive as well. I don't believe they're reffering to the actual material cost, but the service cost to clean the streets & storm sewer, etc...... I'm not saying I concur with that opinion either though............


Sure they do, a lot of them get paid by the lane mile for plowing and salting state roads too.

They are using labor cost to shovel storm drains versus using a catch basin vacuum;

I really dont have any sympathy for them as the salt is what is destroyng the roads, 
sewers, rusting bridges and all the environmental damage.

Their use of salt and its results are what is biting them in the backside and they

became complacent because of the ease of use and the demands of an

interstate highway system and the jet airplane for travel, which we did not need IMO,

and which destroyed the passenger railroads service.

They turned on the gas burner under the frying pan with cooking oil in it and the oil is finally

starting to smoke and we are the ones stuck with the bill because they have a poor attention

span when it comes to sensiblity with regard to roads and infrastructure,

which includes the so called not written in stone bare roads at all times policy.

.:yow!::waving:


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

ajslands;1055943 said:


> i wonder what would happen if you used polymeric sand


I bet that wouldn't clog at all.

If you use an under tailgate spreader with sand you want to make sure you have the dual auger. And a tailgate replacement 1 works even better.


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*sand*

you could also use windshield washer fluid with sand too with no issues.


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## mxer71 (Feb 24, 2010)

So besides sand and salt what other options do we have, I noticed penn dot to use fly ash or something similar has anyone used any of these methods?


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*sand etc.*

the other options are

sanity

thrift

education of the public and customers

elimination of the chicken little sky is falling syndrome by over salting


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Anti-Freeze works well! so does kittly litter,


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

leon;1055955 said:


> Sure they do, a lot of them get paid by the lane mile for plowing and salting state roads too.
> 
> They are using labor cost to shovel storm drains versus using a catch basin vacuum;
> 
> ...


Really, I can't say I disagree with any of this Leon............ 



mxer71;1055979 said:


> So besides sand and salt what other options do we have, I noticed penn dot to use fly ash or something similar has anyone used any of these methods?


I think "fly ash" is the wrong term here. Fly ash is generally used in concrete to replace cementicious material. It is ground extremely fine, so I don't see any mechanical traction aid, much less any chemical benefit.

I think what you're looking for is "pot ash" or "cinders". Try doing a search for either here, and I'm sure you're bound to find more info than you'll ever want ot know.......


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

profile editor

alcholol works too!


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*sand etc.*



jomama45;1056012 said:


> Really, I can't say I disagree with any of this Leon............
> 
> I think "fly ash" is the wrong term here. Fly ash is generally used in concrete to replace cementicious material. It is ground extremely fine, so I don't see any mechanical traction aid, much less any chemical benefit.
> 
> I think what you're looking for is "pot ash" or "cinders". Try doing a search for either here, and I'm sure you're bound to find more info than you'll ever want ot know.......


Nope its "Bottom ash" the heavier fly ash that is pumped out ot the boiler sumps with pulverised coal boilers-awful things to work around especially when they have holes in the bolier walls and more coal is blown in to the boiler when more steam is needed and your walking by it with an 8 foot dust broom cleaning the floor.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

60-40 or 70-30 sand to salt mix is still very necessary at times.Like someone else said,for a gravel driveway or parking lot and sometimes on hilly areas,you have to go in reverse to get traction from the sand in order to do your job---which is ice control.By me,it is known as highway or road sand--sharp,big grain,very gritty.


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## mxer71 (Feb 24, 2010)

I live in western PA near homer city and keystone power plants, Is there any place to get cinders anymore?


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## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*cinders*



mxer71;1056070 said:


> I live in western PA near homer city and keystone power plants, Is there any place to get cinders anymore?


========================================================================

You would have to call PPL and the universities with steam plants to see if they have cinders as the EPA has stiffened the regulations on coal ash disposal.

leon


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

leon;1055897 said:


> OH and BTW the 200 plus lbs per lane mile of salt spreading is not written in stone as a requirement for our state roads it is only a recommendation.


No it is not written in stone. In fact it is very high for many applications. The charts below illustrate how little salt is need if it is applied properly.


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