# looking for opinions on backhoes



## cmo18 (Mar 10, 2008)

We currently do 2 large lots with a international dresser 520 and 12ft pusher. It works great and can do both lots in about 6 hours on a 8" storm.

However with the machine getting older, harder to get parts for and for we can only use it in the winter were considering selling it for something year round.

A backhoe would be ideal because we can landscape with it and plow snow but I would like to get some opinions on what backhoe I should be looking for that will compete with the loader.

I like John deere and Cat for service and support.


----------



## RJ lindblom (Sep 21, 2006)

Years ago I spend several hours running a Cat 416B. They still have the machine, I think it has about 6000 hours on it and the pins are still pretty tight.

It seems a cat 420 would be the machine to have, IMO. You really can't go wrong with either, IMO.


----------



## alpine779 (Feb 16, 2010)

We run a cat 420 d it with 10' horst push on it. Its a really great combo and moves a lot of snow but won't ever really "replace' a loader as far as capability with pushing snow. Anytime you have long runs and higher accumulations the backhoe is gonna have a harder time pushing compared to the loader. We also loaded the front tires with calcium for added weight. The other suggestion I would make is if you get a push for your possible future hoe purchase add the back drag option. We did and we love it.


----------



## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

cmo18;1611130 said:


> We currently do 2 large lots with a international dresser 520 and 12ft pusher. It works great and can do both lots in about 6 hours on a 8" storm.
> 
> However with the machine getting older, harder to get parts for and for we can only use it in the winter were considering selling it for something year round.
> 
> ...


Well,being a Deere man for the last 30 years,if you can find a clean,well maintained, and low hour 710 D,E,G,J,or K model,that will most likely slightly surpass your old 520 for plowing which always was a good solid machine,just a little slow. A 710 is a LOT of machine though for someone's back yard but only you would know what's best for you when you say ''landscaping.'' To me and most excavators,the words landscaping and a 710 just don't go hand in hand.It's smaller brother,a 410,is also a lot of machine,but don't go below a E model here as the earlier 410's were a lot smaller.I have a 410G,which is 1 fantastic all around rig with gobs of power.Maybe your local Deere dealer can let you try a few if you dangle the carrot just right if you catch my drift.Thumbs Up


----------



## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Being a Cat guy I like the 420E for digging, especially the excavator controls. As far as pushing and moving material I think its a bit under powered or maybe the gearing is just too tall. If you're going to push a lot of snow go buy a Case 580. I hate digging with them but those things run forever and maintenance is pretty cheap. We have both at work and our Case has almost 9000 hours and while its pretty loose it runs strong as heck and doesn't smoke.


----------



## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

Not to hijack, but I'm In for more info on this. We will be bidding a large freight terminal for next season and am trying to decide between backhoes or other equipment.

How many hours is too many for large equip? I know its a different class than compact. i.e. skids start getting tired and worn out at 3k hours but that shouldn't be much for payloaders and such.

Here is one I found locally:
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bfs/3610190091.html


----------



## johnhenry1933 (Feb 11, 2013)

Not to be obtuse, but that depends on how it was used, how (by who) it was operated, the degree of maintenace and care, and the specific piece of equipment. I think generally as far as large loaders, 10k hours is nothing (or has another 10k+ left), whereas in medium duty loader/backhoes, 5k-8k it may be needing some serious servicing soon. But again, it all depends on the user, how used, maintenance and specific piece of equipment.


----------



## RJ lindblom (Sep 21, 2006)

Maintenance on a backhoe and front end loaders can run 10,000 plus. The thing to look for is how the does the transmission shift? Also the pins and bushings, how tight is the loader and backhoe? Look for leaks, mainly hydraulic and transmission.

The John Deere 310 is an excellent machine, it has been around in various incarnations for the last 40 years.


----------



## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

ProTouchGrounds;1611529 said:


> Not to hijack, but I'm In for more info on this. We will be bidding a large freight terminal for next season and am trying to decide between backhoes or other equipment.
> 
> How many hours is too many for large equip? I know its a different class than compact. i.e. skids start getting tired and worn out at 3k hours but that shouldn't be much for payloaders and such.
> 
> ...


The 310J would be an excellent choice.They are a highly sought after machine so expect to pay accordingly.


----------



## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

The 310sj's are a VERY nice machine!


----------



## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

Picked up a good used New Holland this year. 

If we would have had it last year it might have got 10 hours work. This year it is already close to 200 and its out double shifting all weekend doing relocation.

It had more hours than I was looking for, but the price was right. It was well maintained, very tight and has been excellent so far.

After having one, will not go without again. Considered renting again, but for the 5 month cost of rental, 2 years winter rental would have paid the machine off in full.

Put a 12 ft pusher on it because it roads between many locations. It could take a 14 ft for the small snows easily, but it also weighs 19,000 lbs.

I purchased a backhoe because a wheel loader or ag tractor would only get 3 months use from me. Both a wheel loader and ag tractor can push snow better, but a backhoe I can use 12 months a year.


----------



## RJ lindblom (Sep 21, 2006)

goel;1612360 said:


> I purchased a backhoe because a wheel loader or *ag tractor would only get 3 months use from me*. Both a wheel loader and ag tractor can push snow better, but a backhoe I can use 12 months a year.


I was thinking about that the other day. I was wondering of those who operate ag tractors, how many are used seasonally? How many are leased? How many get used doing ag work when not moving snow?

A backhoe can see work year around easily.


----------



## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

tuney443;1611270 said:


> Well,being a Deere man for the last 30 years,if you can find a clean,well maintained, and low hour 710 D,E,G,J,or K model,that will most likely slightly surpass your old 520 for plowing which always was a good solid machine,just a little slow. A 710 is a LOT of machine though for someone's back yard but only you would know what's best for you when you say ''landscaping.'' To me and most excavators,the words landscaping and a 710 just don't go hand in hand.It's smaller brother,a 410,is also a lot of machine,but don't go below a E model here as the earlier 410's were a lot smaller.I have a 410G,which is 1 fantastic all around rig with gobs of power.Maybe your local Deere dealer can let you try a few if you dangle the carrot just right if you catch my drift.Thumbs Up


I'm renting a 710D this winter from a friend it's a big machine for sure. Its too bad it hasn't been maintained over the years. Leaks engine oil allot and hydro oil. Front end is fairly loose too it seams. Main hydro line off the pump burst this week. While that was beeing fixed noticed the blow by or breather tube was off and there was a nice amount of dirt in the engine there.



RJ lindblom;1612410 said:


> I was thinking about that the other day. I was wondering of those who operate ag tractors, how many are used seasonally? How many are leased? How many get used doing ag work when not moving snow?
> 
> A backhoe can see work year around easily.


I lease to own a agg tractor and don't use it at all in the summer. It's 3 season old and has maybe 300 hours on it. Another 2 seasons and no more payments. No use for a backhoe currently in summer or not one big enough to push large amount of snow.

I do not understand the companies that lease for winter only at close to $20'000. I'd at least buy a few and maybe sell them after a few years if maintenance is a issue.


----------



## cmo18 (Mar 10, 2008)

I have tried almost all 310 model, very nice machines

I know a backhoe wont do what my loader can do, and we average out at 140" a year. Just in February we had 3 ft of snow. Lets just say ive been busy!

Im really going to try and keep the loader for big pushes as Ive found a 1998 310SE at a fairly good price in good shape with low hours. I havent called or tried it yet, have any of you? This old of a machine have ride control?

Really the main reason im looking at a backhoe is because of operator comfort. I have a bad back and can only run my loader for 2-3 hours max on a good day.


----------



## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

If you have a bad back forget the backhoe. Bumpty bump bump goes the backhoe.


----------



## cmo18 (Mar 10, 2008)

Grassman09;1612721 said:


> If you have a bad back forget the backhoe. Bumpty bump bump goes the backhoe.


anything with ride control is better then no ride control!


----------



## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

If you need comfort an ag tractor with a frame mount would be much smoother. 

Even with ride control, a backhoe Plowing bounces around a lot. With the hoe dangling off the back, and bucket and pusher off the front (worse when backing up). Even if you were to mount something like a Horst pusher direct to the arms eliminating the bucket you would plow faster, but still bounce a lot. 

After 6 or 8 hours pushing snow you definitely know it. With a bad back I would not be doing it,


----------



## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

cmo18;1612740 said:


> anything with ride control is better then no ride control!


I have ride control air seat and some sort of ride control or dampening system for the loader arms on my skid steer. Still bounce around. My friend who drives my tractor said to me he feels the skid steer bounces around less then my tractor. His coffee does not spill as much in the skid then the tractor.


----------



## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Most of your Cat and Deere machines over the last 10-15 years have air seats in them. If you can find one with ride control your back should be ok. Kinda like riding in a boat but there's no hard bounces.


----------



## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

cmo18;1612696 said:


> I have tried almost all 310 model, very nice machines
> 
> I know a backhoe wont do what my loader can do, and we average out at 140" a year. Just in February we had 3 ft of snow. Lets just say ive been busy!
> 
> ...


Yes,the E model was offered with ride control but that won't offer much comfort to your bad back when you're pushing,stacking,and/or loading snow.Ride control's only job is to hydraulically dampen bouncy bounce while moving from point A to B for the comfort of the operator and to help avoid spillage for whatever's in the bucket.


----------



## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

tuney443;1612809 said:


> Yes,the E model was offered with ride control but that won't offer much comfort to your bad back when you're pushing,stacking,and/or loading snow.Ride control's only job is to hydraulically dampen bouncy bounce while moving from point A to B for the comfort of the operator and to help avoid spillage for whatever's in the bucket.


I agree. I have a Cat420E and it has ride control. Its only good for traveling down the road. It keeps the machine from bouncing all over. When we are on the lot pushing, we switch the ride control off. The ride control moves the loader arms too much and the pusher ends up getting positioned wrong half way thru my push. I think if you are looking for ultimate comfort, you need to not be in a machine.


----------



## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

we bought a tractor (90hp) for snow blowing last season, and dont use it at all over the summer. I'm trying to push field mowing with it this year, but if it only gets used for winter I'm ok with that as the efficiency factor over a truck is that much better, not to mention lower fuel consumption etc...

I have about about 900lbs of counter weight in front and the 2500lb shoule blower on back and she still bounces, the air seat helps but still a pain roading it.


----------



## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

I agree we turn the ride control on everything off when plowing, but the second it hits the street the ride control is back on... You'll know it right away within the first 500' if you forget to turn it on... Night and day difference! I will never own anything without ride control


----------



## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

I can't see how you will go wrong with any of the big (3) TLBs (Cat, Deere, Case). As with any used machine, the specific condition of the individual machine is a huge factor. Support is a big factor to consider also. The Op stated that he preferred the support of the Deere and Cat brands and I would agree with that and add that Case often has good support too. IME the best support will be found at Cat, Deere, and Case, in that order. Others may have a different experience but that is mine and it includes direct experience in (3) different states. 
That 310J will be a fine machine, dependent upon condition, and may, or may not, have ride control (was an option). I currently own, and use, a Cat 416C and it has over 12,000 hours on it. Excavation is my primary business so this machine was never "babied" in any of it's 12,000+ hours. As far as major repairs I have had to perform the following:
Brake replacement. This happened at 750 hours (under warranty) and at each 5,000 hours there after
Replacement of the boom. This happened at 4,990 hours and was also warranted due to a very small crack that I was going to fix myself.
Front wheel drive failure (6,000 hrs). A broken $2 snap ring on the all wheel shaft caused me $6k repair (tranny had to be R & R'd to repair).
Replaced lower portion of 4-n-1 loader bucket. Abrasion wear through the bottom skin. Replacement was cheaper than repair.
Replaced hydraulic pump (11,500 hrs). Began to notice reduced loader lifting performance.Total cost for major repairs was about $15,700, or about $.1.31 per hour. Not too bad if you ask me. The major factor in the condition of this machine is that I am the one who put almost all the hours on it. I am also the one who pays for, or self performs, the repairs. This all goes back to the condition of the individual machine. High hour machines can be good bargains but one must perform thorough inspection/homework (this applies to low hour machines too). I would recommend purchasing from an "owner/operator" if possible. I have seen, and heard of (as in this thread) other brands with what could be considered high hours so , as I said before, any of the big (3) should be fine if the unit is in good condition.

I do not have ride control on my 416C. I do have it on my 544J and I think it makes a huge difference in how it "roads". It also has a feature that allows the operator to set the speed at which it will engage. Once it's set the valve automatically opens when the desired speed is reached, and closes when the speed drops below the setting. There are other factors in ride quality. One is set up. The 416 that I currently own is the best balanced TLB I have ever ran (I have run a lot of TLBs). This has a lot to do with the set up. The unit is equipped with a suspension seat (pre-air ride so spring and gas shock) backhoe extension, 4x4, (3) chin weights, and a 4-n-1 bucket. Obviously there are other items but I have listed these because I think that they are the ones that contribute to the ride quality. If you are considering a similar unit seriously I will be happy to provide more detail. Otherwise I will leave it at that do to post length considerations (it's already a long post). I have never found a Deere, Case, or larger Cat for that matter, that has been as well balanced. The Cases, with the "over center" booms, are the most bouncy IMO. Note that this opinion was formed having never used a backhoe equipped with ride control (save for a prototype 420D) but you will most likely be pushing snow with the R/C turned off if you have it. Most TLBs are weight biased to the rear. Mine is equipped to place enough weight up front to allow better roading and grading capabilities. If properly set up the ride quality can be managed with good operating technique. As far as roading it between locations, R/C and travel speed will most likely be the bigger factors. Having good set-up helps too, but buying used makes it harder to find a unit with the right set-up.
I would not recommend a large frame TLB for this application, especially if you are considering using it for landscaping. A 14 foot class TLB (416/420; 310; 580) will be best suited for the intended applications. In particular, I do not like the 710 series TLB for anything other than digging with the hoe. There is just not enough weight up front and the creeper clutch is a farm tractor hold over that I bet even the farmers do not appreciate. Very nice out back though but, if that's all your using on it, you would be better of buying an excavator.
My understanding of R/C is that, when activated, it opens a valve that allows the hydraulic oil, in the loader circuit, to push against a piston in a nitrogen charged vessel. This dampens the action of the loader bucket bouncing. This effect, if undamped, compresses the tires, which spring back, thus enhancing the negative effects. If I were to buy another loader, or TLB, I would definetly purchase this option.


----------



## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

I forgot to mention a possible downside to the Cat TLBs (at least B through current series units-not sure about As or series IIs). If you want to run chains on the rear wheels you will have to install wheel spacers to push the wheels out far enough to allow cahins to fit between the tires and the fenders. On Cats this will cost about $1,000 so not very cheap. This may also apply to other brands but I have no experience running chains on the other brands.


----------



## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

Great post Dgodgr. You bring up some good points. I've noticed on the 710D im using when roading any lil bump upsets her. Guess its the big stick out back. Even with the crummy tires with close to no tread left it still pushes very well cant see it needing chains. have not had the tires break loose. I guess if one was plowing gravel hard pack there would be a need for chains. 

What gear are you pushing in? I was told you could push in 3rd but its real slow and doesn't like to push and stack in that gear I have to drop down to 2nd. The clock reads over 8000 hrs. 

I've always been fond of the case hoes, see lots of them around and they have a cummins engine in them. But I'd probably buy a Cat to match my skid.


----------



## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

I don't use my 416C for snow removal much anymore. I usually use 2nd gear when pushing snow. Even that gear risks sending you through the windshield if you hit a manhole or valve box lid. I have not run chains on the back of the 416, only on the front, and I have had the ass end swing around if the slope is steep enough. I have a hard tim,e dropping the money for spacers on a machine with that many hours and one that we don't use very much any more (I am the only one in my company that can run that control pattern). I have put a lot of hours on Case TLBs. It's been a long time though. I believe that the K model is the most recent unit that I have run (yeah that was a while ago as it was when they were first introduced). Case no longer employs the Cummins engine. They are running Ivecos now.


----------



## CAT 245ME (Sep 10, 2006)

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the big three backhoes. But for service in New Brunswick you have Atlantic Cat and Wallace Equipment (JD), can't go wrong with either one.

I find when looking at used equipment, finding a machine that has had mainly one operator is very important instead of one that has had many test pilots. Almost always, machines that have had multiple operators are not maintained as they should be. When I first started operating front end loader full time in 2011, I had a Cat 972G Series 2 loader that was a one operator machine that had over 15,000 hrs, well looked after by the previous operator and had very minor issues. Ran that loader for 3 weeks til I got a brand new Cat 972H, the old 972G was just as strong at over 15,000 hrs compared to the new 972H. 

Maintenance is the key when looking at used equipment, I would not be afraid of a machine with a few hours on it as long as it has been treated right.


----------



## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

DGODGR;1622220 said:


> I don't use my 416C for snow removal much anymore. I usually use 2nd gear when pushing snow. Even that gear risks sending you through the windshield if you hit a manhole or valve box lid. I have not run chains on the back of the 416, only on the front, and I have had the ass end swing around if the slope is steep enough. I have a hard tim,e dropping the money for spacers on a machine with that many hours and one that we don't use very much any more (I am the only one in my company that can run that control pattern). I have put a lot of hours on Case TLBs. It's been a long time though. I believe that the K model is the most recent unit that I have run (yeah that was a while ago as it was when they were first introduced). Case no longer employs the Cummins engine. They are running Ivecos now.


I was thinking from a used perspective not new as far as engines go. I keep the HOE in 2nd when plowing too 1st is too low and slow and 3 has no power. What is cat using in there hoes? My skid has a Mitsubishi engine in it. Seams like she may be burning engine oil or I didn't top it up all the way last oil change or its not broken in yet only have 350 hours on it.



CAT 245ME;1622418 said:


> Maintenance is the key when looking at used equipment, I would not be afraid of a machine with a few hours on it as long as it has been treated right.


I think forest gump said it best. You never know what you are gonna get.

I could sell you a machine and say oh yea I took care of it, I always greased it changed the oil on time cleaned the air filters etc etc. But after all I'm trying to sell it and will sell it to whoever has the cash.

I personally do maintain my equipment as best as I can. I think the rental houses also do a good job. Talked to a buddy at the cat dealership he said stay away from the aerial lifts, but there other equipment is good.


----------



## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

It's a Perkins (often refered to as "Perkapillar" because Cat owns Perkins) 4cyl. It's the same basic engine in all of Cat's TLBs with the exception of the 446/450 size. My "B" series 416 had the Perkins badge on the engine but since the "C" models they are branded with the Cat logo. They still are a Perkins but they are built to Cat's spec. My 315CL also has a Mitsubishi power plant (6cyl) and it consumes oil too. It's just getting low around 250 hours. Fortunately that's the amount of hours that I change the oil and filters at.
As far as the Case using the Cummins engines, I think they were in the North American Cases until the new "K" series. I guess they switched because Iveco is part of the family now but I thought the Cummins engine was one of the Case strong suits. I think that they were using that same basic engine since the "C" series.


----------



## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm selling my Cat 420E if anyone is interested. 2006 4x4 with heat, a/c and extenda how. 3500 hours


----------



## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

SullivanSeptic;1622532 said:


> I'm selling my Cat 420E if anyone is interested. 2006 4x4 with heat, a/c and extenda how. 3500 hours


I guess I should start my reply with Happy St Patty's Day! Now on to the ribbing.You better reconsider that...... one peice of yellow iron helps offset all the white ones.:laughing:


----------



## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

Just poured a black and tan and hanging with the whole Irish family.* Corned beef and cabbage is almost ready. Its like Christmas here.


----------



## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

The corned beef and potatoes are in the crock pot here too. Nobody here is Irish (at my house anyway) but the wife likes CB & C so she gets to make it one day of the year. With a name like Sulivan I would have never guessed that you were Irish but the logo and location gave you away.


----------



## CAT 245ME (Sep 10, 2006)

Grassman09;1622497 said:


> I could sell you a machine and say oh yea I took care of it, I always greased it changed the oil on time cleaned the air filters etc etc. But after all I'm trying to sell it and will sell it to whoever has the cash.
> 
> I personally do maintain my equipment as best as I can. I think the rental houses also do a good job. Talked to a buddy at the cat dealership he said stay away from the aerial lifts, but there other equipment is good.


To me when first looking at a machine, start in the cab. If it's clean as the day it was new is a good sign, often it's a good indicator on how the rest of the machine was treated. At work, new equipment only goes to a select few, as where the older equipment (wore out) is given to the clowns.

But also important, knowing a heavy equipment mechanic that you trust to give the machine a good going over to help with the decision. Unfortunately with cost of these machines new, it's not easy for everyone to go the new route.


----------



## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

Don't get much more Irish here. Actually my last name is Murphy. Sullivan is another old family name.


----------

