# Just Double Checking My Thought Process On This One....



## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

I send my plowing/leaf cleanup letters out with my Lawn Maint. bills Sept 1st. I do it so early because by the time everything trickles in for plowing, its around November and we're all set to go for winter. One of my customers, who owns the home here in NY but lives in GA (no one lives there, not sure why he owns it), sends me the signed plow contract and a check for it like RIGHT AWAY. That was the week of Sept 20th, which was 12 weeks ago. Today, he sends me payment for the last bill of the year for lawn maint, with a note that says "I made a mistake sending you the money for plowing, I had already contracted with someone else. Please send me a refund or use the money towards other services I'd like done on the grounds as listed below" and that list was basically hack down an enormous hedge row, weed all the beds, trim the shrubs and do it like now. I call the guy and explain that A) we have pretty much wrapped up all landscaping operations like a month ago besides doing leaves, and B) the contract that he signed clearly says (in big bold betters) that there are absolutely NO refunds on any plowing services after the contract start date which is Nov. 1st. Had he said something to me sooner, or really any time up until Nov 1st, I would have been a little more lenient, and MAYBE given him a refund or at least tried to get some of that work done. But this is 12 weeks after he originally signed the contract and sent me a check. He thinks I am being unreasonable, I think I'm playing by the rules. I mean, at this point, realistically, we COULD have plowed already (we didnt, but it would be possible). Oh, I've had my stakes at the place for over 3 weeks now too. But he's never there, so he wouldnt have seen that. 

Anyone else feel I'm being unreasonable here? He signed the contract, therefore theoretically agreeing to its contents, and my contract is NOT that complicated. I don't really see this going to legal action, probably will end up as nothing more than a "well I already have someone else lined up to plow, and I'm gonna get someone else to do the lawn next year so screw you" kind of thing. Opinions?


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## thelettuceman (Nov 23, 2010)

I would use the money toward the list he gave you. Nothing like customer "goodwill" You may hav wrapped up your landscaping a month ago but how hard is it to get your tools out?
Not bustin' on you but you did ask for thoughts on this.


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## jklawn&Plow (Jan 8, 2011)

I wouldn't take any tools out, weekend is here and snow on the way next week. He didn't contract with anyone else yet. Tell him you don't have the time to go "Marketing" for new customer this late in the season. Get proof he has already signed with someone else and if so do some work in the spring , but I wouldn't sent any money back at this point.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Just send it back,Not like we plowed or anything.


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## 7_below (Dec 9, 2009)

Bummer you lost the account and there is a little inconvenience. Come the first snowfall you'll pick up a few more. I dont know what you charged him for the season, but he's basically giving you money to do more work. Lets say its $375. Grab a chainsaw and head over to grab your plow stakes and do $375 worth of work on that hedge row. Whats the problem here? Its going to be in the 50's here this weekend and has to almost the same in Amherst. I save alot of tree work and shrub removals for this time of year. Then in the spring they hire me back for more plantings. Its a win win situation! Now, with that said, you could be a real pr!ck (so to speak) and not refund the money. But this can always leed to more problems. I would go do some of the work he had asked for and then be done with it. Good luck. Hope it works out.


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## deicepro (Mar 24, 2009)

That sucks, but I would do some work and wash your hands of him.


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

Its not that I don't want to do the work, the point is that they paid 12 weeks ago and I've been turning down new customers for almost 3 weeks now because I am at capacity where I'm able to service everyone in a timely fashion and reliably. Had I known they were going want to cancel, I could have taken on more customers at an earlier date. The driveway isn't even that big, so really I turned down a bigger driveway that I could have done if I lost this one but knew about it earlier.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

It is only one driveway.I'm still getting calls for them and I turn them down.


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

And I understand ***** happens too. Like I had a customer pay me for plowing back in september, and 2 weeks later she died and by mid-october the house was sold so they wanted their money back, and I gave it to them no problems cuz of the unforeseen circumstances. But this other guy, I'm not sure what his deal is. I guess I'm just hung up on the principal of it...


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Did I miss something? The guy said you could do the same amount of work for the same price and you want to say no?! Work is work! Money is money do it cash the check find another driveway and be done.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

The customer request is very reasonable. You're being outrageous with lame and whiney excuses. 

Get off your butt and perform other work for him, or give the man the refund he deserves.


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

I get up this morning, go into my office and have a voicemail from the guy that says just plow the driveway but now he wants to add sidewalk service...fine by me, I'm going to send out a new contract that includes the terms and conditions of my sidewalk service, a bill for the difference, AND a written estimate for the landscape work he wants done. Hopefully he doesnt change his mind again!


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## Stuffdeer (Dec 26, 2005)

You'll be lucky to get the landscaping work after he saw how he was treated as a customer when problems arose.


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

Stuffdeer;1368717 said:


> You'll be lucky to get the landscaping work after he saw how he was treated as a customer when problems arose.


I honestly don't really expect to. If you saw the property, that small amount of landscaping really isnt going to do much for it. My contract clearly explains the refund policy (which as I said, is basically no refunds or applied credits after the contract start date), so it is what it is.


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## jklawn&Plow (Jan 8, 2011)

How do you handle/ charge for sidewalk service?


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

jklawn&Plow;1369655 said:


> How do you handle/ charge for sidewalk service?


Usually its just a flat seasonal rate thats added on top of plowing.


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## mike thunder (Oct 19, 2011)

No refunds means no refunds, period. It doesn't mean credit for later use either. Why should you be the one who loses? Even if you did give him a credit as he requested, you would still lose money by having to replace his lost income on the snow end. From his perspective he's not losing money either. He could simply use the other guy for the landscape work and leave you to the contract he agreed too. And I wouldn't worry about making him happy either, he's already made it clear he isn't loyal to you and shops for other service providers.


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## PenfieldProp (Dec 15, 2011)

Imo I don't get refunds for cell phones or trucks or material but we are always supposed to just jump to a customer let someone else pay for once just my opinion.


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## icudoucme (Dec 3, 2008)

What will make you sleep well at night?


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## DuraBird02 (Oct 26, 2011)

I may have missed it when I was reading through the posts but did he pay a flat fee for the whole season? Maybe he felt like he was getting screwed since there hasn't been any snow to plow and he was looking for a way to get it back by saying "he had a contract for snow removal from someone else". Sounds to me like he was just trying to get some money back since there hasn't been any snow. Just speculation and my $0.02.


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

icudoucme;1381689 said:


> What will make you sleep well at night?


a good mattress and a couple shots of Crown 



PenfieldProp;1381638 said:


> Imo I don't get refunds for cell phones or trucks or material but we are always supposed to just jump to a customer let someone else pay for once just my opinion.


Thats pretty much what I told him I was like look plowing is a time-sensitive service meaning its not a "I'll get to it when I get to it" kind of thing, therefore I have to allocate my resources (trucks, employees, phone, insurance, whatever else makes the business tick) for the season, and I can't do that unless I plan everything out, and the reason theres that cut-off date of when the contract starts because thats when everything gets set in stone and I have my budget and my resources figured out and to change that would screw me up. Yeah I could probably refund one driveway and it wouldnt really change anything, but its one of those things that if you do it for one, where do you draw the line for the rest? Theats the policy, I hold to it the same for a $300 driveway as I got a $4,000 parking lot.



DuraBird02;1381862 said:


> I may have missed it when I was reading through the posts but did he pay a flat fee for the whole season? Maybe he felt like he was getting screwed since there hasn't been any snow to plow and he was looking for a way to get it back by saying "he had a contract for snow removal from someone else". Sounds to me like he was just trying to get some money back since there hasn't been any snow. Just speculation and my $0.02.


Yes he did. That actually came up in one of the conversations I had with him, to which I said "do you pay car insurance?" "yes" "have you ever gotten in an accident where someone sued you for millions of dollars?" "no" "but you paid all that insurance money just in case something happened, even though it never did, but IF it did, its there when you need it" Plowing on a seasonal contract is kinda the same way. One year it might be like it is now and we go almost 2 months into the contract and not have a single snowfall, and by the end of the contract we've only plowed a few times and I as the contractor make out like a bandit. But next year, we might get absolutely pounded with snow and I as the contractor will lose my ass but the customer makes out good. It all balances out in the end. If you're a contractor that does seasonal contracts, you can't look at plowing on a year-to-year "right now" basis...you have to look at it over the course of 4, 5,6 years or even longer and it all even out in the end for both contractor and customer. Thats the way I look at it anyway.


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## nms0219 (Jan 20, 2007)

Good for you stick to it. No refunds.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

MikeRi24;1381955 said:


> Thats pretty much what I told him I was like look plowing is a time-sensitive service meaning its not a "I'll get to it when I get to it" kind of thing, therefore I have to allocate my resources (trucks, employees, phone, insurance, whatever else makes the business tick) for the season, and I can't do that unless I plan everything out, and the reason theres that cut-off date of when the contract starts because thats when everything gets set in stone and I have my budget and my resources figured out and to change that would screw me up. Yeah I could probably refund one driveway and it wouldnt really change anything, but its one of those things that if you do it for one, where do you draw the line for the rest? Theats the policy.... Thats the way I look at it anyway.


How does one little driveway throw your world into such a tizzy? You're blowing this way out of proportion.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

I think you should call all your competitors and blacklist the guy. 

I can't believe how unreasonable he is. 

(that's sarcasm for those who didn't catch it)


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

Like I said, you do it for one, do it for all. Why bother having contracts and policies if you're just gonna bend your own rules and not stick to them?


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

I am still lost on this...you are not willing to make an afternoon of no work profitable by working then turn around and fill your now open spot on your plow route to be even more profitable?! Whatever floats your boat I guess.


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

terrapro;1383221 said:


> I am still lost on this...you are not willing to make an afternoon of no work profitable by working then turn around and fill your now open spot on your plow route to be even more profitable?! Whatever floats your boat I guess.


well, considering the guy doesnt understand that the landscaping work he wanted done is going to FAR exceed what the credit from the driveway would be, I could see it just turning into an even bigger argument. And its been raining here a LOT the last 3-4 weeks, and the grounds are all a huge mess, so I'd prob end up making the whole thing worse by traipsing around his yard for a day in the mud. Also, the house is right on my route and in VERY close proximity to a few other I do. And by this point, I had discontinued my advertising because my routes were full, so the phone calls had really stopped coming in, and if at this point, I got ANY more calls, where are those driveways going to be? Somewhere on the 2nd truck's route (which is full)? Where am I going to have to drive to get this other driveway to "make up" for this one? I may end up going out of my way for a driveway thats half the size and less profitable. Just the chance to take I guess.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I'm still getting calls for plowing. Did a small parking lot est.Fri. Asked them why they waited so long. He said an employee was plowing it and his truck is broken and he's just going to sell it and not plow.


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## KBTConst (Oct 25, 2009)

All I hear from everyone on here is (I don't do anything with out a contract) what good is a signed contract if you if you don't stick to it?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Circumstances change situations. Nothing wrong with exercising the ability and the option to deal with whatever on a case by case basis.

Black and white robots wear blinders.


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## KBTConst (Oct 25, 2009)

TCLA;1384856 said:


> Circumstances change situations. Nothing wrong with exercising the ability and the option to deal with whatever on a case by case basis.
> 
> Black and white robots wear blinders.


Normally I would agree but, this guy signed a contract that stated no refunds 12 weeks ago and he forgot that he hired another company. To me it sounds like he just got another price and it was lower than the first and now he is trying to save a few bucks.

What would happen if he had all ready plowed a few time, adjust and send the balance? If it was 1 or 2 weeks after signing I would just give it back now I don't think I would.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

KBTConst;1384887 said:


> Normally I would agree but, this guy signed a contract that stated no refunds 12 weeks ago and he forgot that he hired another company. To me it sounds like he just got another price and it was lower than the first and now he is trying to save a few bucks.
> 
> The truth here is you're making an assumption. The client sounds to me like a very busy man. Piddly driveway plowing on a home he doesn't even live in could be very low on his priority list.
> 
> ...


Now you're changing the circumstances with speculation that never happened. Focus should be on the facts as they present themselves.


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## DuraBird02 (Oct 26, 2011)

MikeRi24;1381955 said:


> Yes he did. That actually came up in one of the conversations I had with him, to which I said "do you pay car insurance?" "yes" "have you ever gotten in an accident where someone sued you for millions of dollars?" "no" "but you paid all that insurance money just in case something happened, even though it never did, but IF it did, its there when you need it" Plowing on a seasonal contract is kinda the same way. One year it might be like it is now and we go almost 2 months into the contract and not have a single snowfall, and by the end of the contract we've only plowed a few times and I as the contractor make out like a bandit. But next year, we might get absolutely pounded with snow and I as the contractor will lose my ass but the customer makes out good. It all balances out in the end. If you're a contractor that does seasonal contracts, you can't look at plowing on a year-to-year "right now" basis...you have to look at it over the course of 4, 5,6 years or even longer and it all even out in the end for both contractor and customer. Thats the way I look at it anyway.


I didn't mean to sound like i was supporting his effort to retrieve some of his money. I was just speculating that that's probably what he was trying to do. 
I don't see how one driveway will make or break you, unless you are charging a lot more for driveways than most do.


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## BPS#1 (Oct 16, 2011)

WOW, just WOW.






It must be an east coast mentality thing or some thing.

Here I have none of my residentials on contracts. They tell me what they want done, I given them a written price and away we go. They pay and the cycle continues. 
Its so much more informal and I like it that way. Even my commercials with contracts we keep an open informal relationship with the guys in charge.

I cannot imagine being so up tight as to have a mowing contract or residential snow contact.
So much stuff is done in these parts on a handshake. I wouldn't want it any other way.


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## mjstef (Dec 31, 2009)

BPS#1;1384969 said:


> WOW, just WOW.
> 
> It must be an east coast mentality thing or some thing.
> 
> ...


I agree. Most everything here in Western Montana is piece rate. I have no contracts either. In the end i make a whole lot more money "BY THE EVENT" than i would if i had to guess how much it was going to snow and have a contract. If it doesn't snow like this year, i have no expense but usually will make it up later in the year when it dumps. 95% of my business is word of mouth and handshake deals.

I'll leave all of you with some customer service help:

- Why customers quit:

1% die
3% move away
68% quit because of an attitude of indifference towards the customer by the staff.
14 % are dissatisfied with the product.
9% leave because of competitive reasons.

Source: How to win customers and keep them for life (2000) - Michael Leboeuf

- For every customer who bothers to complain, 26 other customers remain silent. Source: Lee Resource Inc

- It takes 12 positive service incidents to make up for 1 negative incident. Source: Lee Resource Inc

- The average "wronged customer" will tell 8-l6 people about it. Over 20% will tell more than 20. Source: Lee Resource Inc

- 91% of unhappy customers will not willingly do business with you again. Source: Lee Resource Inc

- 70% of complaining customers will do business with you again if you resolve the complaint in their favour. Source: Lee Resource Inc

- 95% of complaining customers will do business with you again if you resolve the complaint instantly. Source: Lee Resource Inc

- Reducing customer defections can boost profits by 25-85%. In 73% of cases, the organization made no attempt to persuade dissatisfied customers to stay; even though 35% said that a simple apology would have prevented them from moving to the competition. Source: NOP

- 80% of complaints received by an organisation are likely to have poor communication as their root cause, either with the customer or within the organisation itself. Source: Unknown

- 56%-70% of the customers who complain to you will do business with you again if you resolve their problem. If they feel you acted quickly and to their satisfaction, up to 96% will do business with you again, and they will probably refer other people to you. Source: the White House Office of Consumer Affairs, Washington, DC.

- A dissatisfied customer will tell 9-15 people about it. And approximately 13% of your dissatisfied customers will tell more than 20 people about their problem. Source: the White House Office of Consumer Affairs, Washington, DC.

- Happy customers who have their problems resolved will tell 4-6 people about their positive experience. Source: the White House Office of Consumer Affairs, Washington, DC.

- It costs five to six times as much to get a new (first time) customer as it does to keep a current one. Source: the White House Office of Consumer Affairs, Washington, DC.

- Customer loyalty can be worth up to 10 times as much as a single purchase. Source: the White House Office of Consumer Affairs, Washington, DC.

- It costs 6 times more to attract a new customer than it does to keep an old one. Source: "Understanding Customers" by Ruby Newell-Legner


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## jklawn&Plow (Jan 8, 2011)

I save time mailing out my agreements and then showing up to do a great job. The contracts are just something to cover the points. It is really just a reminder to send payment for the great service that they , the customer know they are going to get. Handshake, my customers work if I had to set up appointments for each of them would cost me a lot more in gas, time , phone rescheduling. etc

Lets say you shake hands with the customer and then a few weeks later they tell you they went with someone else (or after you plowed the first event and did not receive payment).
Paper contract-handshake- same thing- an agreement- one saves time- really not more formal- just leaves a paper trail.


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## mjstef (Dec 31, 2009)

jklawn&Plow;1385780 said:


> I save time mailing out my agreements and then showing up to do a great job. The contracts are just something to cover the points. It is really just a reminder to send payment for the great service that they , the customer know they are going to get. Handshake, my customers work if I had to set up appointments for each of them would cost me a lot more in gas, time , phone rescheduling. etc
> 
> Lets say you shake hands with the customer and then a few weeks later they tell you they went with someone else (or after you plowed the first event and did not receive payment).
> Paper contract-handshake- same thing- an agreement- one saves time- really not more formal- just leaves a paper trail.


Like BPS said, Must be an east coast thing. People here live and die by there word. I have plowed people out that i have never met other than a phone call and always got paid. Just a different class of people here in the rockies i suppose. If i do need to meet people that is what evenings and weekends are for. A mailed contract is just to informal for my tastes and does nothing to build a relationship.........


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

mjstef;1385007 said:


> - Why customers quit:
> 
> 1% die
> 3% move away
> ...


And the other 5%?


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## KBTConst (Oct 25, 2009)

TCLA;1384898 said:


> Now you're changing the circumstances with speculation that never happened. Focus should be on the facts as they present themselves.


You,re right it is all speculation on my part I just don't see how a person can forget about hiring a plow company and later remember he hired another one. I'm just glad it's not me that has to make the decision.


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## jklawn&Plow (Jan 8, 2011)

mjstef;1385802 said:


> Like BPS said, Must be an east coast thing. People here live and die by there word. I have plowed people out that i have never met other than a phone call and always got paid. Just a different class of people here in the rockies i suppose. If i do need to meet people that is what evenings and weekends are for. A mailed contract is just to informal for my tastes and does nothing to build a relationship.........


I work based on word all the time and always get paid , no short of class here. We all just have busy lives and once the formalities of meeting a prospective client are done just try to get things done efficiently without having to jump through any hoops. Weekends for me are family time which I value more than facetime for clients. My work shows the customer they know its getting taken care off and don't need extra care to feel reasured.


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