# SALT BRINE/LCC What are the effective temperature ranges?



## Gr8WhiteNorth

For those who mix SALT BRINE and LIQUID CALCIUM CHLORIDE:

what are the effective temperature ranges for the following mix ratios:

90/10
70/30
50/50



thx


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## Kubota 8540

Gr8WhiteNorth;1849526 said:


> For those who mix SALT BRINE and LIQUID CALCIUM CHLORIDE:
> 
> what are the effective temperature ranges for the following mix ratios:
> 
> 90/10
> 70/30
> 50/50
> 
> thx


90/10 stops working at about 5F

70/30 starts falling out of suspension after about 4-5 hours and needs to be recirculated?

50/50 will work down to lower temps but not sure exactly and better be sprayed as soon as you put it in the sprayer.

Calcium chloride melts real well at -7F, suppose to melt at lower temps but have not had the opportunity to try it.


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## Metro Lawn

We use mineral well brine which is about 31% total chlorides and it worked for us last year at 20 below (40 below wind chill).


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

does changing the mix of the solution to a heavier proportion of calcium lower the effective temperature range of the solution? Eg- salt brine/LCC from 90/10 to 50/50? If so, what working ranges would you use?


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## Kubota 8540

Gr8WhiteNorth;1850790 said:


> does changing the mix of the solution to a heavier proportion of calcium lower the effective temperature range of the solution? Eg- salt brine/LCC from 90/10 to 50/50? If so, what working ranges would you use?


Rock salt from +30-+?? (surface temp)

90/10 from +8F to +30F? (surface temp)

up to a 50/50 blend = -5F to +8F ( lower the temp = more LCC)

Below -5F = LCC ( never shot surface temp, T-T-TOO c-c-cold to get out of cab) :laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes

Metro Lawn;1849963 said:


> We use mineral well brine which is about 31% total chlorides and it worked for us last year at 20 below (40 below wind chill).


Wind chill has nothing to do with melting snow or ice on pavement or any place else for that matter.


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## framer1901

Wind chill matters if you have to get outa the truck and guess how much you just applied.


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## NuverPlawd

Mark Oomkes;1852847 said:


> Wind chill has nothing to do with melting snow or ice on pavement or any place else for that matter.


This may not be true. While it is true that it does not have as immediate effect on snow and ice as the sun for example... massive and persistent sub-freezing wind bursts have been noted to lower surface ice temps, leading to slowed melt times and even rapid refreeze.

Supporting that notion myself, I have a property that has a narrow drive between two larger buildings. It is also on a steep hillside, which faces the north and west. This drive gets pounded by wind and when we have persistent -30F to -40F arctic winds that drive is harder than hell to melt even though the actual temperature is only -7 F to -22 F. It being on a hill makes it especially dangerous. All other areas are good by that time usually. I usually toss a little Calcium in those conditions to ease my mind.


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## gc3

I saw that statement also and wasn't sure if it was correct or not. I always thought it played into the ground temp and freezing process somehow, just didn't know to what extent. It'd be nice to know if it mattered or not for sure.


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## beanz27

gc3;1886266 said:


> I saw that statement also and wasn't sure if it was correct or not. I always thought it played into the ground temp and freezing process somehow, just didn't know to what extent. It'd be nice to know if it mattered or not for sure.


My understanding of wind chill, and I may be wrong is this:

It does not affect objects, or surfaces in the way it affects humans. If the wind chill is -40, but the actual temp is -20, the ground temp will not be below -20.

Wind will allow surfaces to cool faster to the actual air temp, but it won't go below it. That being said, wind does dry things quickly, so if your spraying something, it could "dry" it off before it can actually do its job fully. Or make it dry off a little where it wouldn't be as effective.

That's my understanding, hopefully that makes sense.


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## SnoFarmer

beanz27;1886433 said:


> My understanding of wind chill, and I may be wrong is this:
> 
> It does not affect objects, or surfaces in the way it affects humans. If the wind chill is -40, but the actual temp is -20, the ground temp will not be below -20.
> 
> Wind will allow surfaces to cool faster to the actual air temp, but it won't go below it. That being said, wind does dry things quickly, so if your spraying something, it could "dry" it off before it can actually do its job fully. Or make it dry off a little where it wouldn't be as effective.
> 
> That's my understanding, hopefully that makes sense.


 Your correct.
1. What is wind chill temperature?

A. The wind chill temperature is how cold people and animals feel when outside. Windchill is based on the rate of heat loss from exposed skin caused by wind and cold. As the wind increases, it draws heat from the body, driving down skin temperature and eventually the internal body temperature. Therefore, the wind makes it FEEL much colder. If the temperature is 0 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind is blowing at 15 mph, the wind chill is -19 degrees Fahrenheit. At this wind chill temperature, exposed skin can freeze in 30 minutes.

2. Can wind chill impact my car's radiator or exposed water pipe?

A. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind chill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees Fahrenheit.12.

Does wind chill only apply to people and animals?

Yes. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to more quickly cool the object to cool to the current air temperature. Object will NOT cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind chill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees F.

Not to be confused with evaporation.
For molecules of a liquid to evaporate, they must be located near the surface, be moving in the proper direction, and have sufficient kinetic energy to overcome liquid-phase intermolecular forces. When only a small proportion of the molecules meet these criteria, the rate of evaporation is low. Since the kinetic energy of a molecule is proportional to its temperature, evaporation proceeds more quickly at higher temperatures. As the faster-moving molecules escape, the remaining molecules have lower average kinetic energy, and the temperature of the liquid decreases. This phenomenon is also called evaporative cooling. This is why evaporating sweat cools the human body. Evaporation also tends to proceed more quickly with higher flow rates between the gaseous and liquid phase and in liquids with higher vapor pressure. For example, laundry on a clothes line will dry (by evaporation) more rapidly on a windy day than on a still day. Three key parts to evaporation are heat, atmospheric pressure (determines the percent humidity) and air movement.
Evaporation is an endothermic process, in that heat is absorbed during evaporation.


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## Mark Oomkes

beanz27;1886433 said:


> My understanding of wind chill, and I may be wrong is this:
> 
> It does not affect objects, or surfaces in the way it affects humans. If the wind chill is -40, but the actual temp is -20, the ground temp will not be below -20.
> 
> Wind will allow surfaces to cool faster to the actual air temp, but it won't go below it. That being said, wind does dry things quickly, so if your spraying something, it could "dry" it off before it can actually do its job fully. Or make it dry off a little where it wouldn't be as effective.
> 
> That's my understanding, hopefully that makes sense.


Your understanding is correct.

Wind chill has absolutely ZERO effect on inanimate objects. Anybody who states differently doesn't know what they are talking aboot.


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## NuverPlawd

Perhaps our terminology is creating a miscommunication. The Arctic blasts that I am speaking of that are creating a windchill effect actually do possess colder air.


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## NuverPlawd

That colder air combined with its high velocity does cause decreased surface temperatures.

I can definitely also understand why the drying effect of high velocity wind bursts even though it only "feels" colder to us further inhibits road salt effectiveness. Salt needs to become a brine to work.. which means no liquid no more melty. 

I'm definitely no meterologist, but I'd have to say that these occurrences in my area at least, from Lake effect to Artic blasts to El Nino.. bring barometric humidifYing atmospheric solar flare similarities that further either nor neither inhibit or expedite the ice exfoliating process.


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## Mark Oomkes

NuverPlawd;1886817 said:


> That colder air combined with its high velocity does cause decreased surface temperatures.
> 
> I can definitely also understand why the drying effect of high velocity wind bursts even though it only "feels" colder to us further inhibits road salt effectiveness. Salt needs to become a brine to work.. which means no liquid no more melty.
> 
> I'm definitely no meterologist, but I'd have to say that these occurrences in my area at least, from Lake effect to Artic blasts to El Nino.. bring barometric humidifYing atmospheric solar flare similarities that further either nor neither inhibit or expedite the ice exfoliating process.


What in God's green earth are you babbling anout?


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## SnoFarmer

NuverPlawd;1886788 said:


> Perhaps our terminology is creating a miscommunication. The Arctic blasts that I am speaking of that are creating a windchill effect actually do possess colder air.


You can only have a windchill factor at temps below 50*F.
no mater hoe fast the wind blows, why because we made it up, windchill it is not real but a perceived temp based on a formula to tell us what it will feel like to exposed skin of a living thing.



NuverPlawd;1886817 said:


> That colder air combined with its high velocity does cause decreased surface temperatures.
> 
> I can definitely also understand why the drying effect of high velocity wind bursts even though it only "feels" colder to us further inhibits road salt effectiveness. Salt needs to become a brine to work.. which means no liquid no more melty.
> 
> I'm definitely no meterologist, but I'd have to say that these occurrences in my area at least, from Lake effect to Artic blasts to El Nino.. bring barometric humidifYing atmospheric solar flare similarities that further either nor neither inhibit or expedite the ice exfoliating process.


You did read what the scientists at the nws said about windchill, right?

If the temp is -32 and the wind from a polar vortex or from El Nino blows across your lot at 100mph the temp is still -32. as far as the lot or any inanimate object even your truck.
or
Are you trying to tie in the evaporative effect into windchill?

because it is already factored in. That is one of the reasons it feels cooler when the wind blows to us.

so the wind is evaporating the moisture, so your salt becomes infective.
because it lacks moisture.

I guess i can buy into that but that has to be some dry air for it to have any real effect in my opinion.


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## NuverPlawd

SnoFarmer;1886987 said:


> You can only have a windchill factor at temps below 50*F.
> no mater hoe fast the wind blows, why because we made it up, windchill it is not real but a perceived temp based on a formula to tell us what it will feel like to exposed skin of a living thing.
> 
> You did read what the scientists at the nws said about windchill, right?
> 
> If the temp is -32 and the wind from a polar vortex or from El Nino blows across your lot at 100mph the temp is still -32. as far as the lot or any inanimate object even your truck.
> or
> Are you trying to tie in the evaporative effect into windchill?
> 
> because it is already factored in. That is one of the reasons it feels cooler when the wind blows to us.
> 
> so the wind is evaporating the moisture, so your salt becomes infective.
> because it lacks moisture.
> 
> I guess i can buy into that but that has to be some dry air for it to have any real effect in my opinion.


Right. But the Polar Vortex winds are actually colder than the air around it. During these events the pockets of polar air collide with the warmer local air. The bursts are not only cold as hell, but fast... And the systems are low pressure sucking the water vapor out of the area.

Again, I should have better specified my support of "windchill" effects to these type of events. There are certainly more things at play during an event than air temperature, when combined weird things happen.


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## SnoFarmer

NuverPlawd;1887084 said:


> Right. But the Polar Vortex winds are actually colder than the air around it. During these events the pockets of polar air collide with the warmer local air. The bursts are not only cold as hell, but fast... And the systems are low pressure sucking the water vapor out of the area.
> 
> Again, I should have better specified my support of "windchill" effects to these type of events. There are certainly more things at play during an event than air temperature, when combined weird things happen.


Right as the air in a polar vortex is cold and you have to be in it to experience it.
And when your in one this "air" makes up where we get the ambient temperature reading from
Or for the layman it's the temp you see on the thermometer .
It doesn't make any difference if it is a polar vortex, which we see every winter.
-23 is -23. Vortex or not.
Cold air is always hitting warm we call it a front it could be a warm front or a cold front.

Cold air can only hold so much moisture ie humidity .
It also has a very low dew point.

For an inanimate object, windchill has an effect if the object is warm. For example, say that you fill two glasses with the same amount of 100-degree water. You put one glass in your refrigerator, which is at 35 degrees, and one outside, where it is 35 degrees and the wind is blowing at 25 mph (so the windchill makes it feel like 8 degrees). The glass outside will get cold quicker than the glass in the refrigerator because of the wind. However, the glass outside will not get colder than 35 degrees -- the air is 35 degrees whether it is moving or not. That is why the thermometer reads 35 degrees even though it feels like 8 degrees.


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## concreteguy

So an air cooled engine doesn't get cooled by the air 
I think you're on track with people's misconception of the effect of wind chill.


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## SnoFarmer

concreteguy;1887192 said:


> So an air cooled engine doesn't get cooled by the air
> I think you're on track with people's misconception of the effect of wind chill.


Is that directed at me and mark?
Because that is not what we said at all.

A air cooled engine makes heat.
As the wind/air passes over the fins it caries away the hot air from the heat sink, (the fins are a heat sink).
The air no matter how cold will never cool the engine to a point below the ambient temp , even when it is not running.

but we already covered this back in post #11

Can wind chill impact my car's radiator or exposed water pipe?

A. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators,( _air cooled engine_) and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind chill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees Fahrenheit.12.


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## Mark Oomkes

NuverPlawd;1887084 said:


> Right. But the Polar Vortex winds are actually colder than the air around it. During these events the pockets of polar air collide with the warmer local air. The bursts are not only cold as hell, but fast... And the systems are low pressure sucking the water vapor out of the area.
> 
> Again, I should have better specified my support of "windchill" effects to these type of events. There are certainly more things at play during an event than air temperature, when combined weird things happen.


The ambient air temperature is the ambient air temperature.

The wind chill and heat index are measures of what the ambient temperatures, humidity and wind velocity make the temperature feel like to animate objects.

As stated, even wind chills do not lower the ambient air temperature. It is strictly a formula of variables that are made up. The whole thing was just changed a few years ago.

Yes, wind helps cool inanimate objects faster. But wind will never cool anything to less than the ambient air temperature. NEVER, EVER. Not tropical winds, not polar vortex winds. It is impossible. Because when it comes down to it, the wind chill is a fictitious value.



concreteguy;1887192 said:


> So an air cooled engine doesn't get cooled by the air
> I think you're on track with people's misconception of the effect of wind chill.


Sure it does, but it will never be cooled to a temperature below ambient air temperature. Tropical wind or polar vortex wind. It is impossible.

Try this sometime. Get a thermometer and while standing still, take a reading. Then jump in your vehicle and head down to the local racetrack and spin your vehicle up to 100 MPH while holding your thermometer out the window. It's going to read the same temperature. All the time, every time.

This whole conversation is ridiculous.


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## concreteguy

Mark, I agree, that's why I put a smile at the end. Just trying to be funny


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## leigh

Time for some to bone up on thermodynamics 101.


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## 1olddogtwo

Good reading......, one of the best post of the month.


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## gc3

1olddogtwo;1887969 said:


> Good reading......, one of the best post of the month.


What...But what about downpressure to western headdress threads or Ferguson rant threads.


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## Mark Oomkes

concreteguy;1887939 said:


> Mark, I agree, that's why I put a smile at the end. Just trying to be funny


I thought you were, but wasn't positive.

Needed to head off more ridiculous comments before they popped up. Lol


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## Kemosabe

Wind chill only affects objects that generate heat, like animals, running cars etc.


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## Mark Oomkes

Kemosabe said:


> Wind chill only affects objects that generate heat, like animals, running cars etc.


Proof?


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## Kemosabe

windchill will lower the temperature of an object (animate or inanimate) faster than if there is no wind,but once the object hits the ambient temperature, the wind has no further affect.


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## Hydromaster

There doesn’t need to be a windchill factor for “wind” air to remove the heat that is given off by a object. 

He builds up around an object thus insulating the object when air moves across the object it removes this barrier of air this facilitates a more rapid cool down. 

Wind doesn’t start to have this evaporative cooling affect called “wind chill “ until 50° Or lower. 

Why believe what somebody says on the Internet...
Prof
“the temperature of human skin will not drop below that of the surrounding air, regardless of wind. Likewise, inanimate objects (like automobiles) will not drop below the temperature of surrounding air. So while a wind will reduce the time it takes for a warm object to cool down to air temperature, it can't result in a final temperature below that of the air itself. If air temperature is -10 degrees and the wind-chill temperature is -25 degrees, for example, automobiles and tractors only need antifreeze protection down to -10 degrees.”
Answered by: Paul Walorski, B.A. Physics, Part-time Physics Instructor


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## Mark Oomkes

Kemosabe said:


> windchill will lower the temperature of an object (animate or inanimate) faster than if there is no wind,but once the object hits the ambient temperature, the wind has no further affect.


You should probably look up the definition of wind chill.

Wind chill has zero effect on anything. It's a measurement, in all reality, a made up number. Wind chill doesn't lower the temperature of anything...animate or inanimate.


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## Kemosabe

What i`d like to know is: what affect the salt/brine has on the road surface temperature? If you add salt to ice making homemade ice cream, it lowers the temperature of the surrounding surfaces by 9degrees celcious.


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## Mark Oomkes

Kemosabe said:


> What i`d like to know is: what affect the salt/brine has on the road surface temperature? If you add salt to ice making homemade ice cream, it lowers the temperature of the surrounding surfaces by 9degrees celcious.


Still waiting for a rebuttal as to why you are wrong regarding wind chill...


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## Kemosabe

Mark Oomkes said:


> Still waiting for a rebuttal as to why you are wrong regarding wind chill...


99% of the comments regarding windchill agree with eachother.


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## Mark Oomkes

Kemosabe said:


> 99% of the comments regarding windchill agree with eachother.


I disagree...


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## Hydromaster

Kemosabe said:


> What i`d like to know is: what affect the salt/brine has on the road surface temperature? If you add salt to ice making homemade ice cream, it lowers the temperature of the surrounding surfaces by 9degrees celcious.


The same as when you make ice cream and the maker gets colder. I'll 
By adding salt to the mix, you effectively lower the melting temperature. This way, instead of the ice/water mix staying at 32 degrees F while it melts, it stays at something closer to 0 degrees F as it melts. Also, if the ice was already at 32 degrees F when you add the salt, energy has to go into melting the ice. Since this energy has to come from somewhere, the temperature of the whole system has to get colder until it reaches the new, lower melting point.

It's OK for the road surface to get colder as it will have to get even colder than that for the water salt solution to refreeze.

Where did you get your 9°C number from?

The new freezing point depends on the salt concentration the lowest you can go is -21.1 C or -5.9 8F this occurs at saturation will know more salt will dissolve .


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## Kemosabe

Hydromaster said:


> The same as when you make ice cream and the maker gets colder. I'll
> By adding salt to the mix, you effectively lower the melting temperature. This way, instead of the ice/water mix staying at 32 degrees F while it melts, it stays at something closer to 0 degrees F as it melts. Also, if the ice was already at 32 degrees F when you add the salt, energy has to go into melting the ice. Since this energy has to come from somewhere, the temperature of the whole system has to get colder until it reaches the new, lower melting point.
> 
> It's OK for the road surface to get colder as it will have to get even colder than that for the water salt solution to refreeze.
> 
> Where did you get your 9°C number from?
> 
> The new freezing point depends on the salt concentration the lowest you can go is -21.1 C or -5.9 8F this occurs at saturation will know more salt will dissolve .


https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/y...iew&id=6&vid=b3d28b8e4fd0fcedb40ad3daeaef4aa5


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## Hydromaster

we’re not making ice cream.

I Didn’t go look at how To make ice cream on YouTube.


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## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> we're not making ice cream.
> 
> I Didn't go look at how To make ice cream on YouTube.


I like ice cream...


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## leigh

Hydromaster said:


> we're not making ice cream.
> 
> I Didn't go look at how To make ice cream on YouTube.


 you should,the bikini clad Russian ice cream club "how to make icecream " videos are enthralling.


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## Hydromaster

leigh said:


> you should,the bikini clad Russian ice cream club "how to make icecream " videos are enthralling.


Maybe I should, 
It's getting heated around here.


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## Kemosabe

"the temperature of the whole system has to get colder until it reaches the new, lower melting point.
It’s OK for the road surface to get colder as it will have to get even colder than that for the water salt solution to refreeze."

My question is: as it`s melting the ice on the surface, does it make the asphalt underneath and/or the air above,colder by taking heat out of these surrounding areas?


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## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> It's getting heated around here.


Use some salt...it will reduce the temperature.


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## Kemosabe

Mark Oomkes said:


> Use some salt...it will reduce the temperature.


apparently the whole process stops at -6C with 23% solution. My question is: as it`s melting the ice on the surface, does it make the asphalt underneath and/or the air above,colder by taking heat out of these surrounding areas?


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## Hydromaster

Kemosabe said:


> My question is: as it`s melting the ice on the surface, does it make the asphalt underneath and/or the air above,colder by taking heat out of these surrounding areas?


Yes, it will Cool the road just like it cooled the cream in the ice cream maker or your beer in the cooler



Mark Oomkes said:


> Use some salt...it will reduce the temperature.


May not be a bad idea


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## leigh

dang,another old thread! just liked a comment from 2014 by Mark lol,:hammerhead:


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## Kemosabe

Hydromaster said:


> Yes, it will Cool the road just like it cooled the cream in the ice cream maker or your beer in the cooler
> 
> May not be a bad idea


so, if it`s ambient temp. 0C and the brine is applied to ice on the road, it could conceiveably lower the temperature of the asphalt and the temperature of the air to excellerate more freezing?


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## Hydromaster

It is possible.
The mass of the road and the ambient air temperature all play a roll.

salt has as an effective range along with other ice control chemicals

Is there enough energy available or isn’t there


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## Mark Oomkes

Kemosabe said:


> so, if it`s ambient temp. 0C and the brine is applied to ice on the road, it could conceiveably lower the temperature of the asphalt and the temperature of the air to excellerate more freezing?


DO you perchance play with ancient, run down trucks?


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## leigh

Kemosabe said:


> so, if it`s ambient temp. 0C and the brine is applied to ice on the road, it could conceiveably lower the temperature of the asphalt and the temperature of the air to excellerate more freezing?


 could also raise the temp of the roadway.


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## Mark Oomkes

Kemosabe said:


> so, if it`s ambient temp. 0C and the brine is applied to ice on the road, it could conceiveably lower the temperature of the asphalt and the temperature of the air to excellerate more freezing?





leigh said:


> could also raise the temp of the roadway.


Or it could do neither, because salt will not reduce the pavement temperature below whatever it is. And pavement temp follows air temp, so I won't say ambient because air and ground temps can be very different.


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## Hydromaster

Salt,or table salt /ice will lower The temperature of the road surface , (use your ir temp gun)just like it will cool the beer when you poured salt on the ice in the cooler.


I guess, we need to qualify what we are calling salt. 

Depending on what you use as “salt” you could have an endothermic reaction or an exothermic reaction.


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## Mark Oomkes

No it won't.

It has no affect on pavement.


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## Kemosabe

Hydromaster said:


> Salt,or table salt /ice will lower The temperature of the road surface , (use your ir temp gun)just like it will cool the beer when you poured salt on the ice in the cooler.
> 
> I guess, we need to qualify what we are calling salt.
> 
> Depending on what you use as "salt" you could have an endothermic reaction or an exothermic reaction.


I'm calling salt as whatever is in the brine or cast on the ice as rock salt. I'm of the understanding that the black ice that plagues us these days is more prevalent at the 0C range. Hence the question as to whether the brine exacerbates the problem at those borderline temperatures.


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## Hydromaster

It will
Or your beer/ or cream and the ice cream maker wouldn’t get cold.

I’m not saying it’s gonna be a huge effect but the affect of rock salt on ice is it gets colder as it absorbs any heat from the ice or roadway that’s in contact with ,thus cooling it


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## Hydromaster

Mark Oomkes said:


> No it won't.
> 
> It has no affect on pavement.


Proff


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## Hydromaster

Let’s do an experiment I’ll take a picture of my pavement tamps
I’ll use my ir temp gun .
then I’ll take a picture of an area of ice I applied salt two and then ice that I have not applied salt too we’ll wait a little while I’ll scrape off the ice salt mixture and take a Nother reading


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## Hydromaster

Pavement temperature


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## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> Proff


So if I throw salt on dry pavement it's going to lower the temp of that pavement compared to unsalted pavement right next to it?


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## Mark Oomkes

You're not understanding what salt does.


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## Hydromaster

Temp of ice on the pavement


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## Hydromaster

Where salt was applied


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## Hydromaster

Mark Oomkes said:


> So if I throw salt on dry pavement it's going to lower the temp of that pavement compared to unsalted pavement right next to it?


Is that your proof ?
I guess you don't understand what salt does

And I thought we are talking about applying salt to ice covered roads way not just throwing it on the ground


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## Hydromaster

My numbers are flawed and I cannot conduct the experiment . my temp gun is malfunctioning I just went back outside took a pavement tempteading and I gained over 10° I cannot trust my IR temp gun


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## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> Is that your proof ?
> I guess you don't understand what salt does
> 
> And I thought we are talking about applying salt to ice covered roads way not just throwing it on the ground


Assuming what you say is true, how is the ice turned into water? If the pavement is getting colder, wouldn't there be more ice?


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## Hydromaster

OK so I cleaned up my temp gun and put a new battery in it went back outside and took some pictures

I took a reading of the pavement.
Then I removed/ wiped off as much brine as I could and took a reading of the


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## Mark Oomkes

I already know the answer.


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## Hydromaster

Mark Oomkes said:


> Assuming what you say is true, how is the ice turned into water? If the pavement is getting colder, wouldn't there be more ice?


When you pour salt into the ice cream maker the salt started to melt yet it got colder.

Were still waiting for your proof so far I've just seen more questions and no proof


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## Mark Oomkes

Your IR gun needs to adjust to the ambient temperature, you will get false readings going from hot to cold or vice versa.


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## Hydromaster

Mark Oomkes said:


> I already know the answer.


Then educate me , because Fred tells me I don't know anything or maybe Fred should be answering this question


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> When you pour salt into the ice cream maker the salt started to melt yet it got colder.
> 
> Were still waiting for your proof so far I've just seen more questions and no proof


I'm waiting for an answer at how salt turns ice into water.


----------



## Hydromaster

Mark Oomkes said:


> Your IR gun needs to adjust to the ambient temperature, you will get false readings going from hot to cold or vice versa.


Never had the issue before it could be sitting On the defosters of the dash then when I open the window and take a reading it has always worked 
Acclamation isn'twasnt the issue.

So what do you do drive around with your temp gun out the window and then take readings or I bet, like the rest of us it's nice and cozy in your truck and your roll down the window and take a reading ,right


----------



## Hydromaster

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm waiting for an answer at how salt turns ice into water.


 Im waiting on your proof .


----------



## Kemosabe

Mark Oomkes said:


> So if I throw salt on dry pavement it's going to lower the temp of that pavement compared to unsalted pavement right next to it?


I assume we need a layer of ice to mix with the salt to get the chemical reactions that may or may not raise or lower the temperature of the surrounding surfaces.


----------



## Hydromaster

Kemosabe said:


> I assume we need a layer of ice to mix with the salt to get the chemical reactions that may or may not raise or lower the temperature of the surrounding surfaces.


Ice made from H20 be it in snowflake crystals or in a cube it has a microscopic layer of water on top of it ,

I'll be qualifying this is ,I don't have all of the affective temperatures in front of me but as it gets colder this layer of water gets smaller

This is why there is a temperature range for ice control chemicals to be effective


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> Im waiting on your proof .


Am I wrong?


----------



## Hydromaster

Waiting... for your proof

Or you canattempted to turn things around or avoid it but is just gonna sit there.

I have no problems learning something new.
But I do have at least half a clue on How salt works.

if you would educate us with your proof then we all would know.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> Waiting... for your proof


#metoo


----------



## leigh

you guys are both right and wrong, I was serious about this post,can you figure it out?


leigh said:


> could also raise the temp of the roadway.


----------



## leigh

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm waiting for an answer at how salt turns ice into water.


there is no proof,it's impossible for salt to melt ice,your 100 % correct.


----------



## leigh

but salt "brine" will.


----------



## Hydromaster

Salt melts ice because adding salt lowers the freezing point.

How does salt melt ice , it doesn't, unless there is a little water available with the ice.

Without the available water, brine wouldnt be made from just the application of salt.


----------



## leigh

Hydromaster said:


> Salt melts ice because adding salt lowers the freezing point.
> 
> How does salt melt ice , it doesn't, unless there is a little water available with the ice.
> 
> Without the available water, brine wouldnt be made from just the application of salt.


 which is why many states spread a salt/combo in a slurry state or spray liquid to the salt to "kick start" the molecular action that interferes with the ability of water to freeze,to much rubbing shoulders with the ions!


----------



## BossPlow2010

Curious what the effective range for rock salt is...


----------



## Luther

Hydromaster said:


> Salt melts ice because adding salt lowers the freezing point.
> 
> How does salt melt ice , it doesn't, unless there is a little water available with the ice.
> 
> Without the available water, brine wouldnt be made from just the application of salt.


You need to stop stating that salt melts ice. Salt has never melted anything.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Hydromaster said:


> Salt melts ice because adding salt lowers the freezing point.


There we go.

It doesn't change the temp of the pavement. It changes the molecular structure of ice\water to depress the freezing point.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Luther said:


> You need to stop stating that salt melts ice. Salt has never melted anything.


I made that mistake also.


----------



## leigh

BossPlow2010 said:


> Curious what the effective range for rock salt is...


theres theoretical and practical. many say between 15 -18 Fahrenheit. the lower temps will need a much greater amount of salt,that's why calcium and other more expensive chlorides are used,the melting temp is much lower below 0 deg in many cases.,


----------



## Hydromaster

Mark Oomkes said:


> There we go.
> 
> It doesn't change the temp of the pavement. It changes the molecular structure of ice\water to depress the freezing point.


Salt alone and by itself will not as long as it is the same temp. Ie heat transfer .

Salt add to ice , Like we were discussing ,will lower the temperature of the pavement as I proved. the same way it cools the ice cream bucket & the same when used with ice to cool your beer,
I but you know that, you just like a good debate, well, I hope you knew that...

We been discussing this all along is it endothermic or exothermic ?


----------



## Luther

Hydromaster said:


> We been discussing this all along is it endothermic or exothermic ?


Did you just learn those two words?


----------



## Kemosabe

Mark Oomkes said:


> There we go.
> 
> I can see the case where the pavement wonders whether to **** or go blind deciding to give up heat or take it on. The point being that ,given a certain set of variables, the possibility of the brine encouraging the asphalt to make more ice exists.
> 
> 
> Hydromaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Salt alone and by itself will not as long as it is the same temp. Ie heat transfer .
> 
> Salt add to ice , Like we were discussing ,will lower the temperature of the pavement as I proved. the same way it cools the ice cream bucket & the same when used with ice to cool your beer,
> I but you know that, you just like a good debate, well, I hope you knew that...
> 
> We been discussing this all along is it endothermic or exothermic ?
Click to expand...


----------



## 1olddogtwo

What about concrete....... Everybody keeps talking about pavement.


We all know concrete's it's completely different game..... Some may call it a game-changer.


----------



## Hydromaster

Luther said:


> Did you just learn those two words?


Thanks, for taking the time to ask.
The answer is no.
I just happen to like saying those two words.

Endothermic and exothermic exothermic endothermic....


----------



## Luther

Hydromaster said:


> Salt add to ice , Like we were discussing ,will lower the temperature of the pavement as I proved.....


Salt lowers the freezing point of water....it doesn't lower the temperature of pavement LOL. Your funny. Promise you'll stick around.


----------



## leigh

1olddogtwo said:


> What about concrete....... Everybody keeps talking about pavement.
> 
> We all know concrete's it's completely different game..... Some may call it a game-changer.


 here's a pic I just took ,10 years of sometimes wet salt on the concrete floor,zero effects, hungry salt is a different story! properly finished concrete is not affected by salt,it's the freeze thaw cycles that affect poor concrete jobs. a good example is stamped concrete,it's usually super wet,easier to stamp,falls apart in less than 5 yrs when salt is used.


----------



## Ajlawn1

Luther said:


> Your funny. Promise you'll stick around.


Please tell me that's not what you told a certain someone else and now he's always around too...


----------



## Hydromaster

Luther said:


> Salt lowers the freezing point of water....it doesn't lower the temperature of pavement LOL. Your funny. Promise you'll stick around.


So when adding salt in the ice cream bucket it doesn't lower the temperature of the cream inside ?

Or when I add salt to the ice in my cooler my beer doesn't get colder than just being in the ice ?

The same affect ( what is it ? 
endothermic or exothermic ) happens on the road surface when salt is applied to ice.

I proved it with my experiment or did you miss that?


----------



## Luther

The only thing you proved is you have diarrhea of the keypad.


----------



## Kemosabe

Hydromaster said:


> So when adding salt in the ice cream bucket it doesn't lower the temperature of the cream inside ?
> 
> Or when I add salt to the ice in my cooler my beer doesn't get colder than just being in the ice ?
> 
> The same affect ( what is it ?
> endothermic or exothermic ) happens on the road surface when salt is applied to ice.
> 
> I proved it with my experiment or did you miss that?


Thanking you all for participating in this question.


----------



## Kemosabe

So


Luther said:


> The only thing you proved is you have diarrhea of the keypad.


So Luther,
Can the brine cool the road surface down enough to encourage the formation of more ice? And could this be the reason the black ice forms more readily when the temps hover around zero?


----------



## Luther

Ajlawn1 said:


> Please tell me that's not what you told a certain someone else and now he's always around too...


I think he just found us, not sure I encouraged him to stick around.


----------



## Mike_PS

alright, let's keep to the discussion


----------



## Luther

Kemosabe said:


> So
> 
> So Luther,
> Can the brine cool the road surface down enough to encourage the formation of more ice? And could this be the reason the black ice forms more readily when the temps hover around zero?


Brine will encourage the formation of ice once it's diluted enough.


----------



## 1olddogtwo

Why does ice form in saltwater?

Enquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Luther

If we point an infrared thermometer digital temperature gun with laser at an iceberg I'm sure we'll find the ice is mulch colder than the surrounding water due to the salt content in the water.


----------



## Hydromaster

1olddogtwo said:


> Why does ice form in saltwater?
> 
> Enquiring minds want to know.


I believe sea water ( not sure what concentrations your saltwater has)freezes at around 26°-27°F

Black ice,
Is ice that is not visually distinguishable from wet roads and is Very hard to distinguish at night.

Some blamed it on car exhaust which is just water vapor dripping out of the tailpipe


----------



## Aerospace Eng

People need to go to their corners and do some math....Don't make me break out the slide rule.

With respect to the heat of solution of sodium chloride, it is slightly positive (around 1 kcal/mol), which indicates it requires that amount of energy for the salt to dissolve. Sodium hydroxide is the opposite, and it liberates about 10 kcal/mol when dissolving.

However, this pales in comparison to the heat of fusion of water, which is 334J/g, or 6020 J/g which winds up being about 1440kcal/mol. 1kcal/mol is not even 1/10th of 1% of that, and thus the heat of solution is completely irrelevant to the question at hand.

Melting is a thermodynamic, rather than a chemical reaction, and therefore exothermic/endothermic reactions are irrelevant. It always takes heat to melt a substance. 

If the system was adiabatic, then the melting of the ice through the depression of the freezing point would cause the resulting liquid to drop slightly in temperature.

For an exercise, the combatants should calculate how much the remaining ice would cool down if 1 g of a 1 kg block were converted to water. Don't forget that the specific heat capacity of ice is different than the specific heat capacity of liquid water....Once that is done correctly, resume the argument.

However, the system is not adiabatic, which renders any such calculation moot. Convection, Conduction, and Radiation are all present. 

Lastly, an IR thermometer is notoriously inaccurate when looking at surfaces with different emissivities. Typically, IR thermometers assume an emissivity around 0.8, which is not accurate for a white or shiny surface. As a lab exercise, take a piece of black electrical tape and put it on a polished metal surface or mirror. The temperature of the tape and the temperature of the surface are the same (assuming no solar radiation) but will typically not read the same on an IR thermometer.


----------



## leigh

you guys are now entering bizzaro world,I would venture to say that most of these latest posts are mostly wrong! but carry on, taking my mind off being under the weather


----------



## Aerospace Eng

Kemosabe said:


> So
> 
> So Luther,
> Can the brine cool the road surface down enough to encourage the formation of more ice? And could this be the reason the black ice forms more readily when the temps hover around zero?


Short answer - No.


----------



## Hydromaster

For ice to turn into a higher energy state like water it has to absorb energy, hence it is endothermic as energy is gained.

My statement does not include salt


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Aerospace Eng said:


> Don't make me break out the slide rule.


I was hoping for the abacus...I'll read the rest of your post now.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Kemosabe said:


> So
> 
> So Luther,
> Can the brine cool the road surface down enough to encourage the formation of more ice? And could this be the reason the black ice forms more readily when the temps hover around zero?


I see Aero answered already...but NO.

Black ice is forming because either there isn't any salt\chloride down or it has diluted to the point that it will no longer depress the freezing point of water.


----------



## Hydromaster

Just for fun get yourself a few chunks of dry ice a lb or 2 then pour in a pint of 99% rubbing alcohol or higher % and see what happens 

That will cool your pavement lol


----------



## 1olddogtwo

I thought the wind chill cause black ice.


----------



## Defcon 5

Ajlawn1 said:


> Please tell me that's not what you told a certain someone else and now he's always around too...


Oomkes???


----------



## Defcon 5

All I know is...After watching ice road truckers...Salt water does freeze...


----------



## Defcon 5

Hydromaster said:


> Just for fun get yourself a few chunks of dry ice a lb or 2 then pour in a pint of 99% rubbing alcohol or higher % and see what happens
> 
> That will cool your pavement lol


I could literally think of 10,000 other things to do for fun before I do that....Literally


----------



## Ajlawn1

Defcon 5 said:


> All I know is...After watching ice road truckers...Salt water does freeze...


Those are interior lakes and rivers... You should of said Bering Sea Gold...


----------



## Defcon 5

Ajlawn1 said:


> Those are interior lakes and rivers... You should of said Bering Sea Gold...


Wrong my Woodtick friend...The first season or two they were moving oil rigs across ocean water...


----------



## Ajlawn1

Defcon 5 said:


> Wrong my Woodtick friend...The first season or two they were moving oil rigs across ocean water...


Its called "Ice Road Truckers" not "Iced Ocean Seaman"...


----------



## leigh

I dropped my phone in a pile of salt while working, it froze right up. Did I miss anything? I'm home now and in for the long haul


----------



## Hydromaster

Defcon 5 said:


> I could literally think of 10,000 other things to do for fun before I do that....Literally


You should try it, it's kind of fun.
it's kind of like super heating some water in your microwave then going outside and throwing up into the air when it's -30°f 
( that's without the windchill)


----------



## Hydromaster

leigh said:


> I dropped my phone in a pile of salt while working, it froze right up. Did I miss anything? I'm home now and in for the long haul
> View attachment 187102


Looks good
I was eating some hot wings and washing it down with some PBR


----------



## BossPlow2010

1olddogtwo said:


> I thought the wind chill cause black ice.


Not if the heat index melts it :hammerhead:


----------



## Kemosabe

Hydromaster said:


> I believe sea water ( not sure what concentrations your saltwater has)freezes at around 26°-27°F
> 
> Black ice,
> Is ice that is not visually distinguishable from wet roads and is Very hard to distinguish at night.
> 
> Some blamed it on car exhaust which is just water vapor dripping out of the tailpipe


It's not visually distinguishable from "dry" roads either.


----------



## Kemosabe

Aerospace Eng said:


> People need to go to their corners and do some math....Don't make me break out the slide rule.
> 
> With respect to the heat of solution of sodium chloride, it is slightly positive (around 1 kcal/mol), which indicates it requires that amount of energy for the salt to dissolve. Sodium hydroxide is the opposite, and it liberates about 10 kcal/mol when dissolving.
> 
> However, this pales in comparison to the heat of fusion of water, which is 334J/g, or 6020 J/g which winds up being about 1440kcal/mol. 1kcal/mol is not even 1/10th of 1% of that, and thus the heat of solution is completely irrelevant to the question at hand.
> 
> Melting is a thermodynamic, rather than a chemical reaction, and therefore exothermic/endothermic reactions are irrelevant. It always takes heat to melt a substance.
> 
> If the system was adiabatic, then the melting of the ice through the depression of the freezing point would cause the resulting liquid to drop slightly in temperature.
> 
> For an exercise, the combatants should calculate how much the remaining ice would cool down if 1 g of a 1 kg block were converted to water. Don't forget that the specific heat capacity of ice is different than the specific heat capacity of liquid water....Once that is done correctly, resume the argument.
> 
> However, the system is not adiabatic, which renders any such calculation moot. Convection, Conduction, and Radiation are all present.
> 
> Lastly, an IR thermometer is notoriously inaccurate when looking at surfaces with different emissivities. Typically, IR thermometers assume an emissivity around 0.8, which is not accurate for a white or shiny surface. As a lab exercise, take a piece of black electrical tape and put it on a polished metal surface or mirror. The temperature of the tape and the temperature of the surface are the same (assuming no solar radiation) but will typically not read the same on an IR thermometer.


Do you think it worthwhile exploring the consequences of brining an iced roadway within say 4 degrees either side of 0C relative to the propensity of the thermodynamics to exacerbate the icy conditions? Talk to me, big guy.


----------



## BossPlow2010

Kemosabe said:


> Do you think it worthwhile exploring the consequences of brining an iced roadway within say 4 degrees either side of 0C relative to the propensity of the thermodynamics to exacerbate the icy conditions?


Huh?
Brine/ salt/fairy dust will work well below 0°C and 0° F anyone that tells you it won't is either stupid or lying.


----------



## Aerospace Eng

Kemosabe said:


> Do you think it worthwhile exploring the consequences of brining an iced roadway within say 4 degrees either side of 0C relative to the propensity of the thermodynamics to exacerbate the icy conditions? Talk to me, big guy.


Your question makes no sense. Do the math, brining will not increase the icyness of the road.

Also, if the road is above 0C, it can't be iced. It could be wet, but not iced.

Lastly, you have no idea as to my size, big or small, and I'm not sure why it would be relevant to thermodynamics of a salted road.


----------



## BossPlow2010

Aerospace Eng said:


> Your question makes no sense. Do the math, brining will not increase the icyness of the road.
> 
> Also, if the road is above 0C, it can't be iced. It could be wet, but not iced.
> 
> Lastly, you have no idea as to my size, big or small, and I'm not sure why it would be relevant to thermodynamics of a salted road.


There's icing on this road


----------



## Kemosabe

Aerospace Eng said:


> People need to go to their corners and do some math....Don't make me break out the slide rule.
> 
> With respect to the heat of solution of sodium chloride, it is slightly positive (around 1 kcal/mol), which indicates it requires that amount of energy for the salt to dissolve. Sodium hydroxide is the opposite, and it liberates about 10 kcal/mol when dissolving.
> 
> However, this pales in comparison to the heat of fusion of water, which is 334J/g, or 6020 J/g which winds up being about 1440kcal/mol. 1kcal/mol is not even 1/10th of 1% of that, and thus the heat of solution is completely irrelevant to the question at hand.
> 
> Melting is a thermodynamic, rather than a chemical reaction, and therefore exothermic/endothermic reactions are irrelevant. It always takes heat to melt a substance.
> 
> If the system was adiabatic, then the melting of the ice through the depression of the freezing point would cause the resulting liquid to drop slightly in temperature.
> 
> For an exercise, the combatants should calculate how much the remaining ice would cool down if 1 g of a 1 kg block were converted to water. Don't forget that the specific heat capacity of ice is different than the specific heat capacity of liquid water....Once that is done correctly, resume the argument.
> 
> However, the system is not adiabatic, which renders any such calculation moot. Convection, Conduction, and Radiation are all present.
> 
> Lastly, an IR thermometer is notoriously inaccurate when looking at surfaces with different emissivities. Typically, IR thermometers assume an emissivity around 0.8, which is not accurate for a white or shiny surface. As a lab exercise, take a piece of black electrical tape and put it on a polished metal surface or mirror. The temperature of the tape and the temperature of the surface are the same (assuming no solar radiation) but will typically not read the same on an IR thermometer.





Aerospace Eng said:


> Your question makes no sense. Do the math, brining will not increase the icyness of the road.
> 
> Also, if the road is above 0C, it can't be iced. It could be wet, but not iced.
> 
> Lastly, you have no idea as to my size, big or small, and I'm not sure why it would be relevant to thermodynamics of a salted road.


if I could do the math, I wouldn`t be soliciting your help. I take it that ,in your opinion, our conclusions today are bogus. "BIG GUY" is a utterence of respect for your position as an engineer and a plea for you to condecend to educating me/us.


----------



## Kemosabe

BossPlow2010 said:


> There's icing on this road
> View attachment 187111


The road could be iced and the ambient air temperature could be 0 or above.


----------



## Aerospace Eng

Kemosabe said:


> if I could do the math, I wouldn`t be soliciting your help. I take it that ,in your opinion, our conclusions today are bogus. "BIG GUY" is a utterence of respect for your position as an engineer and a plea for you to condecend to educating me/us.


I'll break out the slide rule.

I could not tell if your post was meant to be snarky.

I'm not sure what you mean by "our conclusions" as I haven't seen agreement among the posters.


----------



## Kemosabe

Aerospace Eng said:


> I'll break out the slide rule.
> 
> I could not tell if your post was meant to be snarky.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by "our conclusions" as I haven't seen agreement among the posters.


The conclusion(?) was that brine on ice will freeze the road under the ice thereby dropping the road surface temp to -6C and freezing the brine,even thought the air is 0C


----------



## Aerospace Eng

Kemosabe said:


> The conclusion(?) was that brine on ice will freeze the road under the ice thereby dropping the road surface temp to -6C and freezing the brine,even thought the air is 0C


That is incorrect.

Math will be provided, but it will probably be a day or so.


----------



## BossPlow2010

Aerospace Eng said:


> That is incorrect.
> 
> Math will be provided, but it will probably be a day or so.


I expect to see you using kelvin's...


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Kemosabe said:


> The conclusion(?) was that brine on ice will freeze the road under the ice thereby dropping the road surface temp to -6C and freezing the brine,even thought the air is 0C


That wasn't my conclusion.


----------



## Aerospace Eng

BossPlow2010 said:


> I expect to see you using kelvin's...


I was leaning toward Rankine, but OK


----------



## tpendagast

this is and old thread...


----------



## Aerospace Eng

First, to actually address the thread question.....

Here's a publication from 1996

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/95202/005.cfm


----------



## Aerospace Eng

Now for a little math.....

First, a few constants. Note that in real life these numbers change slightly with temperature, but those changes are small and complicate the illustration.

0.523 J/g Heat of solution of sodium chloride in water 
334.16 J/g Heat of fusion of water (energy required to melt ice)
2.05 J/gK Heat capacity of ice
4.2174 J/gK heat capacity of water
-0.056 K/psu Temperature change of freezing point per primary salinity unit (psu). 1 psu is a gram of salt per 1000 grams of water. Typical seawater is about 35 psu, although it varies.
https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/brine_salinity.html

The assumption of linearity for temperature change per psu is only valid for fairly low concentrations. From the 1996 road de-ice publication referenced in the prior post, it's probably OK up to about -10C (263.15K)

I am going to ignore the heat capacity of the salt, as well as the density change.

First, what happens if we dump 35 grams of salt in 1000 grams of water (basically making seawater) held at 0C? It takes 18.3 Joules to dissolve the salt, which will lower the temperature of the water by 0.004C. However, this will also lower the freezing point by 1.96C. We have increased the margin between the water temperature and the freezing point from zero to 1.95 degrees. Thus, brining or salting a road is never going to cause the road to ice.

Second, the exercise I suggested above. If we have a 1 kg block of ice at 0C and melt 1g of water, what happens to the temperature of the ice? This is basically the heat of fusion divided by (999 times the heat capacity of ice + 1 times the heat capacity of water). The result is that the temperature of the ice would have to drop by 0.16C. Note that this would violate the second law of thermodynamics, as the ice would be getting colder to melt part of itself. A slightly different way to look at it would be if I had 999 grams of ice at -0.16 C, and I added 1 gram of water supercooled at -0.16C, I would wind up with a solid block of ice at 0C.

Next, what would happen if we dumped 35 grams of salt onto a 1 kg block of ice at 0C, assuming a purely adiabatic (no heat transfer) environment? Once we have melted 100 grams of ice, we would have 350 psu in the solution. The temperature of the remaining ice would have dropped by 14.7C, but the freezing temperature of the liquid would be -19.6C. So more ice will melt, and the temperature will drop further. The equilibrium will be at -16.8C, when 116g of ice will have melted. This is basically what you are doing when making ice cream.

Note that our assumption of linearity is violated, as the temperature is below -10C (and we have other simplifying assumptions), so I don't want to hear any complaints if someone does the above the experiment and comes out with a slightly different temperature.

With respect to snow and ice removal, the adiabatic state never exists. If you have 1 kg of ice sitting at 0C on a parking lot and you dump 35 grams of salt on it, the road itself will keep the temperature of the ice from dropping. In the above example, the road and/or air will not let the ice get to -16.8C. Instead, it will keep the ice warmer because the ground and/or air is warmer than -16.8C. Thus, heat will flow from the ground or air to the ice/water mixture, more ice will melt, and as long as the road or air temperature stays above -2C, eventually you would wind up with 1kg of essentially sea water.

Putting salt or brine down is never going to create more ice.


----------



## Mark Oomkes

Aerospace Eng said:


> Now for a little math.....
> 
> First, a few constants. Note that in real life these numbers change slightly with temperature, but those changes are small and complicate the illustration.
> 
> 0.523 J/g Heat of solution of sodium chloride in water
> 334.16 J/g Heat of fusion of water (energy required to melt ice)
> 2.05 J/gK Heat capacity of ice
> 4.2174 J/gK heat capacity of water
> -0.056 K/psu Temperature change of freezing point per primary salinity unit (psu). 1 psu is a gram of salt per 1000 grams of water. Typical seawater is about 35 psu, although it varies.
> https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/brine_salinity.html
> 
> The assumption of linearity for temperature change per psu is only valid for fairly low concentrations. From the 1996 road de-ice publication referenced in the prior post, it's probably OK up to about -10C (263.15K)
> 
> I am going to ignore the heat capacity of the salt, as well as the density change.
> 
> First, what happens if we dump 35 grams of salt in 1000 grams of water (basically making seawater) held at 0C? It takes 18.3 Joules to dissolve the salt, which will lower the temperature of the water by 0.004C. However, this will also lower the freezing point by 1.96C. We have increased the margin between the water temperature and the freezing point from zero to 1.95 degrees. Thus, brining or salting a road is never going to cause the road to ice.
> 
> Second, the exercise I suggested above. If we have a 1 kg block of ice at 0C and melt 1g of water, what happens to the temperature of the ice? This is basically the heat of fusion divided by (999 times the heat capacity of ice + 1 times the heat capacity of water). The result is that the temperature of the ice would have to drop by 0.16C. Note that this would violate the second law of thermodynamics, as the ice would be getting colder to melt part of itself. A slightly different way to look at it would be if I had 999 grams of ice at -0.16 C, and I added 1 gram of water supercooled at -0.16C, I would wind up with a solid block of ice at 0C.
> 
> Next, what would happen if we dumped 35 grams of salt onto a 1 kg block of ice at 0C, assuming a purely adiabatic (no heat transfer) environment? Once we have melted 100 grams of ice, we would have 350 psu in the solution. The temperature of the remaining ice would have dropped by 14.7C, but the freezing temperature of the liquid would be -19.6C. So more ice will melt, and the temperature will drop further. The equilibrium will be at -16.8C, when 116g of ice will have melted. This is basically what you are doing when making ice cream.
> 
> Note that our assumption of linearity is violated, as the temperature is below -10C (and we have other simplifying assumptions), so I don't want to hear any complaints if someone does the above the experiment and comes out with a slightly different temperature.
> 
> With respect to snow and ice removal, the adiabatic state never exists. If you have 1 kg of ice sitting at 0C on a parking lot and you dump 35 grams of salt on it, the road itself will keep the temperature of the ice from dropping. In the above example, the road and/or air will not let the ice get to -16.8C. Instead, it will keep the ice warmer because the ground and/or air is warmer than -16.8C. Thus, heat will flow from the ground or air to the ice/water mixture, more ice will melt, and as long as the road or air temperature stays above -2C, eventually you would wind up with 1kg of essentially sea water.
> 
> Putting salt or brine down is never going to create more ice.


I was going to say the same thing but didn't want to show off.


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## Aerospace Eng

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was going to say the same thing but didn't want to show off.


As long as you checked it and my math was OK.


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## Mark Oomkes

Aerospace Eng said:


> As long as you checked it and my math was OK.


I'm a snow\lawn monkey...I have a hard time adding or subtracting while wearing shoes and socks.


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## Hydromaster

thank you, aro-eng but inst that formula used to gauge steam power?

In Layman's terms, 
@Bossplow2010(who seems to be having fun with this)
Yes, the pavement does get colder, it has to as the reaction absorbs energy (heat) from its surroundings.
As the solutions temp is colder than the pavement. This will cool the pavement even tho its no longer covered in ice.
Even tho the hydration process gives off heat, this is more than compensated for by the heat absorbed during the initial decomposition of the salt into ions. In other words, the total process of dissolution--decomposition into ions plus hydration--absorbs heat. This can easily be demonstrated: pour some water into a glass and test its temperature with your finger. Add some salt, stir, and test it again. The temperature will have decreased.
Note that the above point can be confusing if you're new to thinking about phase transitions. An ice cube melting will take up energy, while an ice cube freezing will give off energy. 

I like to think of it in terms of Le Chatelier's principle: if you need to lower the temperature to freeze an ice cube, this means that the water gives off heat as it freezes.)

Also, I have to disagree as brine can freeze.
Pure water freezes at 0°C (32°F), water that has salt dissolved in it has to be colder before it freezes. If the water has as much salt dissolved in it as it can hold so that any further salt would just come out as crystals, the freezing temperature is around -21 °C, or about -6 °F.

Does any of this have to do with Black ice, no.
But if the temperature drops enough the brine that you applied will freeze or the brine that formed from adding salt to the road ice will freeze.


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## Aerospace Eng

Hydromaster said:


> thank you, aro-eng but inst that formula used to gauge steam power?


No. It would be similar, as it is just thermodynamics, but you would have the heat of vaporization rather than the heat of fusion, and the specific heats would be different.

I don't disagree with your post factually, but it seems that once again, people are talking apples and oranges.

Yes, adding salt to water will make it colder, but by an insignificant amount compared to the amount of freezing point depression (the first calculation I did).

Yes, the melting of the ice will make the road underneath it temporarily colder (the second and third calculations I did). However, the amount by which it makes it colder depends on the convective heat transfer, primarily from the ground, the conductive heat transfer, primarily from the atmosphere above, and the radiative heat transfer, which depends on time of day, how sunny/clear it is at night, etc..

However, the disagreement, as I understood it, was whether adding brine to the road could cause ice to form, and the answer to that is no.

Obviously, as time goes on, if the temperature drops to the point where it is too cold for salt to melt anything, or the salt gets diluted to where the freezing temperature increases to the road/ambient temperature, then you will have ice forming. But at no time will adding salt or brine cause existing water on the road to freeze, or the road to ice where without salt it wouldn't have.


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## BossPlow2010

Ewe sure pure water freezes at 32°, I thought it melted at 32°


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## Hydromaster

“However, the disagreement, as I understood it, was whether adding brine to the road could cause ice to form, and the answer to that is no. ”

I think,...., this is where there are some questions as brine will freeze at-6°f.

Add salt to water Until it cannot hold any more dissolved salt, that brine water will freeze it minus -6F,

i would think if you applied your brine at or below -6°F it would freeze on the roadway.


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## Hydromaster

BossPlow2010 said:


> Ewe sure pure water freezes at 32°, I thought it melted at 32°


If water is very pure and it is condensed out of the atmosphere and there is nothing for the water to freeze on , it can remane a liquid below the normal freezing point,as low as -40°F

There's an interesting experiment you can do if you take a high end pure bottled water and put it in the freezer for a while you can take it out and it won't be frozen but if you tap the bottle on the water will freeze out once


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## Aerospace Eng

I'm not a brine guy, but different brines will have different freezing temperatures, depending on the salts used. (which was the question originally posed 4 years ago, and which is addressed in the fhwa paper I posted a few posts ago).

I would think that if it is below the freezing temperature of the brine you are using then any question of whether it will freeze on the road is moot, as it will be freezing in your nozzles or as it comes out and it won't get to the road as liquid.


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## Hydromaster

So what you’re saying now is the brine could freeze on the road if it was applied to the road then the temperatures fell?



My understanding was you said earlier that the brine would not freeze.
Any and all bine regardless of the chemical make up has a freezing point.

Yes there are different Additives people add to their brine but I believe we were just talking about salt added to water or at least I was


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## Aerospace Eng

I never said you couldn't freeze brine.

Your understanding is incorrect. Read posts carefully. I said brine (or salt) wouldn't cause freezing.

The calculations I did used just sodium chloride (and used linearized freezing point depression and constant specific heats to make life easier), but the thread is about what ratios of sodium chloride and calcium chloride are effective to what temperatures.


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## Hydromaster

“ putting salt or brine down is never going to create more ice “


Temps below -7°F 
The salt would just stay there in rock-salt form because the temperature is too low.
If you spray salt brine onto the ice and the temperature was low enough the brine would freeze thus creating more ice.


As the large tank in the back of the truck has mass and Will take a much longer time to freeze than a film of liquid applied to the road .
The brine in the hoses is pushed along at pressure it will not freeze as it’s flowing, 
The water being agitated by the movement of the truck / pump creates a small amount of friction slightly raising its temperature.


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## Luther

Hydromaster said:


> thank you, aro-eng but inst that formula used to gauge steam power?
> 
> In Layman's terms,
> @Bossplow2010(who seems to be having fun with this)
> Yes, the pavement does get colder, it has to as the reaction absorbs energy (heat) from its surroundings.
> As the solutions temp is colder than the pavement. This will cool the pavement even tho its no longer covered in ice.
> Even tho the hydration process gives off heat, this is more than compensated for by the heat absorbed during the initial decomposition of the salt into ions. In other words, the total process of dissolution--decomposition into ions plus hydration--absorbs heat. This can easily be demonstrated: pour some water into a glass and test its temperature with your finger. Add some salt, stir, and test it again. The temperature will have decreased.
> Note that the above point can be confusing if you're new to thinking about phase transitions. An ice cube melting will take up energy, while an ice cube freezing will give off energy.
> 
> I like to think of it in terms of Le Chatelier's principle: if you need to lower the temperature to freeze an ice cube, this means that the water gives off heat as it freezes.)
> 
> Also, I have to disagree as brine can freeze.
> Pure water freezes at 0°C (32°F), water that has salt dissolved in it has to be colder before it freezes. If the water has as much salt dissolved in it as it can hold so that any further salt would just come out as crystals, the freezing temperature is around -21 °C, or about -6 °F.
> 
> Does any of this have to do with Black ice, no.
> But if the temperature drops enough the brine that you applied will freeze or the brine that formed from adding salt to the road ice will freeze.


Ridiculous preoccupation of theoretical physics.


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## Aerospace Eng

Hydromaster said:


> " putting salt or brine down is never going to create more ice "
> 
> Temps below -7°F
> The salt would just stay there in rock-salt form because the temperature is too low.
> If you spray salt brine onto the ice and the temperature was low enough the brine would freeze thus creating more ice.
> 
> As the large tank in the back of the truck has mass and Will take a much longer time to freeze than a film of liquid applied to the road .
> The brine in the hoses is pushed along at pressure it will not freeze as it's flowing,
> The water being agitated by the movement of the truck / pump creates a small amount of friction slightly raising its temperature.


I stand by what I said. Read the whole post. If you have liquid water on the road, then spraying brine or dropping salt won't cause it to freeze.

I never said it would freeze in the tank. I said it would freeze in the nozzles, which do not have a large thermal mass, and have small passages.

As far as agitation by movement of the truck, do the math and get back to me. I think you will find that the increased heat transfer due to the convection outweighs any frictional effect.

The pump, and pipe friction will add energy to the system. Whether it increases the temperature depends on the heat transfer of the pipes. Again, do the math and get back to me.

I'm done on this topic until I see some math.


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## BossPlow2010

Last time I checked when I was spreading salt, it wasn’t in a lab, so all of this stuff about pure water and being able to get water down to -40° And bla bla bla. Goes by the wayside when I’m servicing my parking lots.
I adjust my application rate based upon the customers needs, time of day, outside temperature, wether the sun is beaming on it.


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## Hydromaster

As discovered in about 1849 by James Thomson

I'm on a smart phone so I guess I'm just too lazy to type out all of my back of the napkin calculations.
Anyways, it wasn't me that called for all the math .

And I'll need the math stating that it freezes in the nozzles ...
moving liquid will not freeze in the nozzles it will only freeze in the nozzle if it's Stagnant.

Back of the napkin homework ....

I used the Darcy-weisbach formula 
Hf=f(l/d) x (v^2/2g)
the moody chart.

In moving water, Like in an agitated tank 
with friction you have a heat gain.

Sloshing/ circulation pump ,exposed the water to friction in the tank
The pump, water lines and a little nozzles 
Also produce more friction.


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## Hydromaster

BossPlow2010 said:


> Last time I checked when I was spreading salt, it wasn't in a lab, so all of this stuff about pure water and being able to get water down to -40° And bla bla bla. Goes by the wayside when I'm servicing my parking lots.
> I adjust my application rate based upon the customers needs, time of day, outside temperature, wether the sun is beaming on it.


We're not talking about spreading salt we're talking about applying a liquid.

I'm sure you just dump on the salt until the parking lot is white.
All I hear from you is blah blah blah.

You remind me of a little kid that keeps saying ;
Can we have a pool dad
Canwe have a pool dad
Can we have a pool dad
Can we have a pool dad
can we have a pool dad.

Do you have anything to add or are you just here for comic relief as I read some of your comments you have made lately on the board about pavement getting colder ...

Yes we may have migrated a little bit off the Originalquestion at hand but we're is still in the relm of using liquids in the winter to melt ice


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## BossPlow2010

Hydromaster said:


> We're not talking about spreading salt we're talking about applying a liquid.
> 
> I'm sure you just dump on the salt until the parking lot is white.
> All I hear from you is blah blah blah.
> 
> You remind me of a little kid that keeps saying ;
> Can we have a pool dad
> Canwe have a pool dad
> Can we have a pool dad
> Can we have a pool dad
> can we have a pool dad.
> 
> Do you have anything to add or are you just here for comic relief as I read some of your comments you have made lately on the board about pavement getting colder ...
> 
> Yes we may have migrated a little bit off the Originalquestion at hand but we're is still in the relm of using liquids in the winter to melt ice


Pretty sure I added a few things to this thread, here's another thing, reading comprehension isn't one of your strong areas. You remind me of one guy that sucks grease and how he needs to way over analylize everything. 
Here's a question for you, what's your expiernece in snow and ice management, other than at the college level or in a lab


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## Luther

Hydromaster said:


> Yes we may have migrated a little bit off the Originalquestion at hand but we're is still in the relm of using liquids in the winter to melt ice


The original question was asked and answered 4 years ago.


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## Hydromaster

@bossplowActually you’ve added very little to this topic.

To your question, just like you I have a plow truck and I throw salt on the ground.
that makes me an expert on everything.

Question for you, is your job your identity ?

Me I worked with water all my life , and at a wide range of temperatures .
I can keep it a liquid in a pipe that is exposed to subzero temperatures liquid for a long long time. Without external heaters .

why does it angry you so much,
if I’m asking someone questions or debating with someone who is obviously very intelligent.


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## Hydromaster

Luther said:


> The original question was asked and answered 4 years ago.


And your point?

Does this bar any further discussion ?


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## BossPlow2010

Hydromaster said:


> @bossplowActually you've added very little to this topic.
> 
> To your question, just like you I have a plow truck and I throw salt on the ground.
> that makes me an expert on everything.
> 
> Question for you, is your job your identity ?
> 
> Me I worked with water all my life , and at a wide range of temperatures .
> I can keep it a liquid in a pipe that is exposed to subzero temperatures liquid for a long long time. Without external heaters .
> 
> why does it angry you so much,
> if I'm asking someone questions or debating with someone who is obviously very intelligent.


Wow
You sure put me in my place


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## Mike_PS

alright, NO need to try to get personal or degrade someone. so, either back on point and continue the discussion or I can close out this thread


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## Luther

Hydromaster said:


> And your point?
> 
> Does this bar any further discussion ?


The point is dead thread resurrection is stale and boring. Start a new thread with Areo. He is a very smart individual. In the future answer his questions instead of fuzzing out.


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## Philbilly2

Hydromaster said:


> Yes, it will Cool... ...your beer in the cooler


9 pages of reading and this was the only post that I found useful... :laugh:


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## Hydromaster

Luther said:


> The point is dead thread resurrection is stale and boring. Start a new thread with Areo. He is a very smart individual. In the future answer his questions instead of fuzzing out.


My iPhone ain't that smart I'D have to down load a Scientific keyboard .
To show my work at this time.
At best I can reference the equations and the guy credited for them.
I can only remember the equations long enough to score in the low 80s on my tests in
School so I'd have to go look them up and punch in numbers in again 
so I don't know what to tell you.

Along with my practical real life observations experiences working with water at a wide range of temps.
( littel to none in steam)

And you're right, Ive always had an unnatural fascination with the cooler side of thermodynamics


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## Luther

You're only one thread away from bliss...the liquid anti-icing/deicing thread is calling your name


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## Kemosabe

Aerospace Eng said:


> I stand by what I said. Read the whole post. If you have liquid water on the road, then spraying brine or dropping salt won't cause it to freeze.
> 
> I never said it would freeze in the tank. I said it would freeze in the nozzles, which do not have a large thermal mass, and have small passages.
> 
> As far as agitation by movement of the truck, do the math and get back to me. I think you will find that the increased heat transfer due to the convection outweighs any frictional effect.
> 
> The pump, and pipe friction will add energy to the system. Whether it increases the temperature depends on the heat transfer of the pipes. Again, do the math and get back to me.
> 
> I'm done on this topic until I see some math.


 Thanks for your input on my querie. Evidently it was also asked 4 years ago. Brine put on water will only dilute the brine and that brine will freeze at a higher temperature ie closer to 0C. If the brine is put on ice will the process make the road surface under the ice get colder?

See`n as how you are from pennsylvania, I gotta ask if you ever heard of Martin Gardner and/or Bill Gosper.


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## leigh

Hydromaster said:


> "However, the disagreement, as I understood it, was whether adding brine to the road could cause ice to form, and the answer to that is no. "
> 
> I think,...., this is where there are some questions as brine will freeze at-6°f.
> 
> Add salt to water Until it cannot hold any more dissolved salt, that brine water will freeze it minus -6F,
> 
> i would think if you applied your brine at or below -6°F it would freeze on the roadway.





Hydromaster said:


> " putting salt or brine down is never going to create more ice "
> 
> Temps below -7°F
> The salt would just stay there in rock-salt form because the temperature is too low.
> If you spray salt brine onto the ice and the temperature was low enough the brine would freeze thus creating more ice.
> 
> As the large tank in the back of the truck has mass and Will take a much longer time to freeze than a film of liquid applied to the road .
> The brine in the hoses is pushed along at pressure it will not freeze as it's flowing,
> The water being agitated by the movement of the truck / pump creates a small amount of friction slightly raising its temperature.


 Of course salt brine could lead to more ice on road. It doesn't "cause" it, its just happened to sprayed at a temperature below its freezing point, or temps dropped before it evaporated.


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## Aerospace Eng

Kemosabe said:


> Thanks for your input on my querie. Evidently it was also asked 4 years ago. Brine put on water will only dilute the brine and that brine will freeze at a higher temperature ie closer to 0C. If the brine is put on ice will the process make the road surface under the ice get colder?
> 
> See`n as how you are from pennsylvania, I gotta ask if you ever heard of Martin Gardner and/or Bill Gosper.


Two questions....

Second first. I only came to PA in 2008, so I have no idea who those gentleman are.

The first one. It will make it colder, but by how much is a complicated thermodynamic question. Ground is an insulator, but also has substantial heat capacity. Typically, once you get to 5 or 6 feet underground, the temperature is the same as the average annual ambient air temperature. As you get closer to the surface, it gets closer to the current air temperature. However, it is not necessarily a constant. For example, if you have had a cold spell, then the air is warmer, the temperature will decrease from 5-6 feet under up toward the surface (the cold temperature penetrates), but then reverse due to the warmer air above.

When you put brine on ice, assuming it will work at the temperatures that exist, the melting ice needs to suck heat from somewhere. The rate at which it needs to suck heat depends on the rate of melting (surface area, etc.). I'm going to throw some numbers around for illustration, but there is no math behind them. For example, if you have ice at -2 C, with an ambient at -5C, and you throw brine down, it will start to melt the ice. The temperature of the remaining ice will drop. As soon as it starts to drop, heat will start to flow from the ground underneath to the colder ice on top. Whether the temperature of the ice gets to -5C, or -15C depends on how quickly heat transfers for a given drop in temperature, which depends on the road characteristics, soil characteristics, etc. The quasi steady-state ice temperature will be one in which the heat transfer from the ground (and air, if it is below -5C, and solar radiation, if during the day) matches the heat transfer required based on the melting rate, which depends on surface area, etc. As the ice finishes melting, this rate decreases, and the surface temperature will return to whatever temperature it would have initially had. That's why I say that brine won't cause ice. It will not cause the temperature of the surface of the ground to decrease and stay colder than it otherwise would have been.


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## Kemosabe

Hydromaster said:


> And your point?
> 
> Does this bar any further discussion ?


as appreciated as your experiment on the ice with your infrared heat gaget is,the results are inconclusive due to the lack of examples. My thought was that the ground may have already been colder than the ice. One example does not a conclusive argument make.Continued and consistant results does. Aerospace eng. doubts the accutate/consistancy of the laser gun. His parting conclusion was that: if you put brine on water, it will never create ice. I believe that`s true but if the brine is put on ice,will the evaporation draw heat from the road surface UNDER the ice. Your experiment indicated that it might/did, in spite of the math. Or am I flooging a dead horse?


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## Kemosabe

Aerospace Eng said:


> Two questions....
> 
> AWESOME!
> 
> It will not cause the temperature of the surface of the ground to decrease and stay colder than it otherwise would have been."
> The first one: "It will make it colder,......"


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## Hydromaster

Kemosabe said:


> Thanks for your input on my querie. Evidently it was also asked 4 years ago. Brine put on water will only dilute the brine and that brine will freeze at a higher temperature ie closer to 0C. If the brine is put on ice will the process make the road surface under the ice get colder?


Yes, brine can freeze.
salt brine used for deicing is 77% water/23% salt. It freezes when road temperatures reach -6°F/-21°C


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## leigh

Hydromaster said:


> Yes, brine can freeze.
> salt brine used for deicing is 77% water/23% salt. It freezes when road temperatures reach -6°F/-21°C


That's only if it is sprayed on bare pavement.


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## Hydromaster

Method of application doesn’t matter.
Yes, that is for just salt brine.

If it’s sprayed on pavement that has ice or snow or is applied befor any snow is present the brine will be diluted by it and this will freeze at even a higher temperature.


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## Kemosabe

Thanks Gents Hope y`all are Happy and Merry


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