# US Maintenance Problems?



## SpankyVonShponk

Is anyone else having problems receiving payments from last seasons snow services from US Maintenance?


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## SNOWLORD

Here we go again.


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## buckwheat_la

i would tell you to check out the search button, but,,,,,,,,,all USM threads have been deleted, to say there have been NUMEROUS problems by many people with USM is a understatement


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## SpankyVonShponk

Thanks for the responses, I posted this cause I couldn't find anything on this site, if anyone has the old thread archived please let me know. Does anyone know why all the other threads are deleted?


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## northernsweeper

I think they are going to start losing some big contracts, only a matter of time.


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## lilweeds

I thought my post yesterday was more then fair. Why can't we give our opinions of good and bad providers? The one I mentioned yesterday lost the biggest contract in SE PA in the middle of the snow season last year. That is proof positive if they can't plow their own contracts they can't pay their subs.


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## Mike_PS

by all means, give an opinion, but there is NO NEED to get nasty when doing so

we remove posts, threads, etc. and there is no reason to keep rehashing that fact...if you can discuss something like this in a decent manner then have at it


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## clark lawn

northernsweeper;1049823 said:


> I think they are going to start losing some big contracts, only a matter of time.


why? they bid them low and dont pay the subs,i bet they have a very good profit margin. most of the places that use them just want the cheapest price and that what they get. as long as they keep getting contractors to work for them and not get paid they will keep doing it.


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## northernsweeper

why? they bid them low and dont pay the subs,i bet they have a very good profit margin. most of the places that use them just want the cheapest price and that what they get. as long as they keep getting contractors to work for them and not get paid they will keep doing it. 

I agree, but when they don't pay their contractors it reflects bad on the businesses they service. That is what will have them in the end. That and greed.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Michael J. Donovan;1049936 said:


> by all means, give an opinion, but there is NO NEED to get nasty when doing so
> 
> we remove posts, threads, etc. and there is no reason to keep rehashing that fact...if you can discuss something like this in a decent manner then have at it


So what are the guidelines for "nasty messages" ? Since ive also posted several long discussions about them in the past, and all were deleted.. I then re-posted the same post with much less content only to be deleted as well.... why?

Is saying theyre a bad company, dont pay, dont treat subs well, threatened canceled contacts to get more work out of the subs viable for having threads deleted?

So many guys on here ask about them because they cant search and find any past junk in their trunk about them...

And yeah, we do work for them, have since 2007... If you deal with their CA location, chances are you'll have no problem, Norristown, PA, whoa, theyre a whole totally different breed over there.. Its almost like you have "good usm" and "faulty usm"... I almost think of them mentally as two totally different companies,but with the same name :/

They still owe us a boatload for snow removal, now theyre trying to fight us on everything about the final payment... 6+ months later,

They also havnt paid almost 6k for another site contract which we just canceled two weeks ago for numerous problems. After we complied and still maintained the property for another two weeks so theyd have 14 days to get another contractor to handle it... they finally send us the cancellation letter and now threaten for like a 4th time in 2 months to pay less than our invoice/contract amount because of sub-par performance, cancellation and inadequate time to acquire another sub on this site...

That work is ALL through norristown PA.. good luck dealing with anyone from out there!

We handle over 125 locations for their CA location though in the east coast, very very few problems if any. And any that do arise, are easily taken care of, quickly and everyone is satisfied with the business relationship we've grown over the last couple years. Please save this text though, because it will probably get deleted when michael donovan sees it wesport


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## Duncan IN

They have paid me with no problem. So far they have been great to work for.


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## northernsweeper

Have worked for them for the last five years, doing snow at a local chainstore. They are with holding 22,000 they owe me from last winter. My profit for the entire year. There was a slip and fall at my store in 08. That person got an attorney. My insurance talked to the person that fell. They couldn't remember if they fell inside or out, so my insurance company sent a letter to USM denying my liability. By them denying my liability they voided my contract with USM, which states I will hold them free of all liability etc. Then to make matters worse, my insurance company refused to renew, because of a loss that occured in 08, though there has been no suit filed and no loss. Now I am in a risk pool for insurance so its doubled in cost, and I'm broke because I can't get paid. What a crazy world we live in xysport


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## buckwheat_la

northernsweeper;1051104 said:


> Have worked for them for the last five years, doing snow at a local chainstore. They are with holding 22,000 they owe me from last winter. My profit for the entire year. There was a slip and fall at my store in 08. That person got an attorney. My insurance talked to the person that fell. They couldn't remember if they fell inside or out, so my insurance company sent a letter to USM denying my liability. By them denying my liability they voided my contract with USM, which states I will hold them free of all liability etc. Then to make matters worse, my insurance company refused to renew, because of a loss that occured in 08, though there has been no suit filed and no loss. Now I am in a risk pool for insurance so its doubled in cost, and I'm broke because I can't get paid. What a crazy world we live in xysport


this is why if USM EVER shows up in my neck of the woods, I am going to hold a meeting with every provider in my area to make sure that USM never works here.


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## Burkartsplow

SpankyVonShponk;1049646 said:


> Is anyone else having problems receiving payments from last seasons snow services from US Maintenance?


What sites were you doing for USM? Im in cleveland and I would like to know what they subbed out last year. Dont worry I dont want anything to do with them.


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## lawn king

If everyone would simply refuse to work for these national service providers, it would divert the lions share of the profits back to the small contractors. Unfortunately, thats not likely to happen!


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## snowman5313

Lawn king hate to burst the thought that if we stick it to USM we the plower will be in power. That just would leave a gap for another company to take up the slack. 

Even local guys are doing the same crap that USM does. They bid out 100's of jobs just to watch the price go down. Then they hire idiots and newbees to do the work. 

In general the US economy needs to grow and thus the number on plowers would be limited. Supply and demand. till then the markets are going to stay in the crapper.


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## dayexco

we've done the target store here long before USM showed up. i got the $4500 screwing last winter. today was sent a "survey"...asking for equipment lists...that's okay, i gave them that...then they want to see pictures, and verifications of registrations of said equipment...fug it, i'm not playing their reindeer games anymore. there's only 4 of us in town big enough to handle the property, and we're all friends, whoever is going to make a LOT of money.


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## fdei10

*USM payt problems*

I spoke with one of my salesman. He told me of another contractor that is owed $40,000+ from US Maintenance in Central ILfrom last seasons' services.


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## mullis56

We don't work nor would we but just a thought, the ones getting screwed left and right unite and a class action law suit brewing?!


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## Mick76

mullis56;1053642 said:


> We don't work nor would we but just a thought, the ones getting screwed left and right unite and a class action law suit brewing?!


They all signed the same crazy contract...... they took a risk and lost......


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## ajslands

Here is a dumb stupid dumb question; 


What does usm manage?
Who are they? 
and in "pg" terms, what's wrong with them

because I always see a bunch of threads about them but never realy jump in and read them so if someone could please explain or send me a pm just so you don't have to worry about getting in trouble.


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## mullis56

I've seen the contract, hence why I said class action lawsuit with a bunch of them that are already trapped by the one way (USM's way) contract... 

Just a thought.


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## mullis56

ajsland - they are a national company that gets contracts for companies that have 'national' presences to save money for them. As an example we are a 25" to 30" average snowfall area, with 25 average salt only events for no doubt or zero tolerance type of properties and they (USM) contacted us to do say an 8 to 11 acre high traffic, 24 hour operation and highly litigious property (Walmart) last season for $12K for the year...about the cost of the salt only as we did some direct so we know. That's a PG version of who they are, plus they have a contract that allows them to make money, save money for the customer, contractors to lose money and deValue our industry. That may have made it PG-13 so I'm stopping here...


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## Ramairfreak98ss

SNOWLORD;1049680 said:


> Here we go again.


What because people ALL ask the same damn questions? Its just proof in point that theyre going down hill.

We work for them, we do what most would consider a LOT of work, both in snow and landscape maintenance.

This past season, they didnt pay, for a long time, finally they started to pay, and still shorted us over 25k+ then same with landscaping.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

northernsweeper;1051104 said:


> Have worked for them for the last five years, doing snow at a local chainstore. They are with holding 22,000 they owe me from last winter. My profit for the entire year. There was a slip and fall at my store in 08. That person got an attorney. My insurance talked to the person that fell. They couldn't remember if they fell inside or out, so my insurance company sent a letter to USM denying my liability. By them denying my liability they voided my contract with USM, which states I will hold them free of all liability etc. Then to make matters worse, my insurance company refused to renew, because of a loss that occured in 08, though there has been no suit filed and no loss. Now I am in a risk pool for insurance so its doubled in cost, and I'm broke because I can't get paid. What a crazy world we live in xysport


I always worry about stuff like this, thats a really poor seat to be sitting in right now:/ I feel for ya. We were notified from MY insurance agent that there was apparently a slip and fall this past winter, yet the woman made no claim, i figured id be one more reason for them not to pay. Ive waited far too long and the attorney will be drafting letters next week. We just completed a ton of work for them too out of the CA office and almost all of it is paid to this date... sucks to lose that if this goes downhill from here.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

dayexco;1053291 said:


> we've done the target store here long before USM showed up. i got the $4500 screwing last winter. today was sent a "survey"...asking for equipment lists...that's okay, i gave them that...then they want to see pictures, and verifications of registrations of said equipment...fug it, i'm not playing their reindeer games anymore. there's only 4 of us in town big enough to handle the property, and we're all friends, whoever is going to make a LOT of money.


Yeah, the stuff i've voluntarily given companies like them in the past, now they require... i mean they have photos of our whole fleet of everything related to snow removal and then registrations.. seriously, thats only information that i see and the police officers see if were pulled over ! Next thing you know, theyre going to hold payment because a trucks registration is out of date! hah


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## shooterm

I still dont see any need for a national maintence company that only takes the contract when every larger town has decent sized service companies. What company cant mow and plow a walmart? There adding a middle man when there wasnt a need for one.


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## Camden

PDMcgowan;1054034 said:


> I still dont see any need for a national maintence company that only takes the contract when every larger town has decent sized service companies. What company cant mow and plow a walmart? There adding a middle man when there wasnt a need for one.


It makes perfect sense for a large corporation to use a national maintenance company. For instance, instead of Walmart looking for thousands of contractors to service their stores they just let USM do the leg work. It saves them HUGE amounts of time and money. We as contractors may not like it but that's the reality.


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## ajslands

ajslands;1053658 said:


> Here is a dumb stupid dumb question;
> 
> What does usm manage?
> Who are they?
> and in "pg" terms, what's wrong with them
> 
> because I always see a bunch of threads about them but never realy jump in and read them so if someone could please explain or send me a pm just so you don't have to worry about getting in trouble.


Nobody knows?!?!?! :crying:


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## In2toys

Here's a thought... check out the original posters name, he's only made 2 posts about a topic that is sure to rile people up. My guess is somebody made up a user name & account to stir the pot. just a thought


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## ajslands

Who the hell is US maintainence? What do they do and why does everyone hate them?


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## Camden

ajslands;1054086 said:


> Who the hell is US maintainence? What do they do and why does everyone hate them?


Are you serious? Ever heard of Google? 

Here's USM's website and it should tell you all you need to know ---> http://www.usmservices.com/


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## ajman21

i know we have had issues with US maintainence they seem to be slow to pay and try to pick at anything that would get them out of paying for the services we provide. I am not sure why we still work with them. but im just a low man on the totem i am interested to see how this winter goes.


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## ajslands

Camden;1054099 said:


> Are you serious? Ever heard of Google?


no I'm just kidding! And I wanted someone to laugh at my joke so I posted it twice!
as for your second question; as a matter of fact I have heard of Google! I think they droped 22% at close yesterday.


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## Camden

ajslands;1054103 said:


> as for your second question; as a matter of fact I have heard of Google! I think they droped 22% at close yesterday.


Google didn't lose 22% of their value yesterday. That would've made worldwide headlines. They lost *.*22%...big difference when you throw that little point in there.


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## Westhardt Corp.

Word of advice to guys considering national work. READ YOUR CONTRACT. If you don't understand it, have your attorney look it over. If you're not comfortable with it---don't sign it. If they are unwavering--walk away _professionally._ Revenue forfeited is a _potential_ loss. Receivables not received is an _actual_ loss, and hurts much worse.

If you want to survive and be successful, you must have the testicular fortitude to stand by your principles and do _good_ business or _no_ business. You'll find there are others out there who prefer that type of relationship, although it may exempt yourself from certain markets, even industries. But to bend and give in to pressure from these "big" middleman providers will do nothing but accelerate the problem.


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## northernsweeper

I am hoping that one of these days USM will pay me. I more so blame my insurance company for sending them a letter denying my liability. All action at this store is video taped. The catch is that no one can see the video until/unless its subpoenaed, so no one knows who's fault it was that this person fell and won't know until/if it goes to court.
I would suggest to any and all, that copies of all questionable contracts be forwarded to your insurance company, so they know full well what you are contracted into, and mabey save you some problems in the future...GO ARIZONA!!


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## JohnnyRoyale

Westhardt Corp.;1054149 said:


> Word of advice to guys considering national work. READ YOUR CONTRACT. If you don't understand it, have your attorney look it over. If you're not comfortable with it---don't sign it. If they are unwavering--walk away _professionally._ Revenue forfeited is a _potential_ loss. Receivables not received is an _actual_ loss, and hurts much worse.
> 
> If you want to survive and be successful, you must have the testicular fortitude to stand by your principles and do _good_ business or _no_ business. You'll find there are others out there who prefer that type of relationship, although it may exempt yourself from certain markets, even industries. But to bend and give in to pressure from these "big" middleman providers will do nothing but accelerate the problem.


Very well said.


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## Longae29

Westhardt Corp.;1054149 said:


> Word of advice to guys considering national work. READ YOUR CONTRACT. If you don't understand it, have your attorney look it over. If you're not comfortable with it---don't sign it. If they are unwavering--walk away _professionally._ Revenue forfeited is a _potential_ loss. Receivables not received is an _actual_ loss, and hurts much worse.
> 
> If you want to survive and be successful, you must have the testicular fortitude to stand by your principles and do _good_ business or _no_ business. You'll find there are others out there who prefer that type of relationship, although it may exempt yourself from certain markets, even industries. But to bend and give in to pressure from these "big" middleman providers will do nothing but accelerate the problem.


x2

It says right in their contract that they are able to withhold a % of business you do with them, in plain black and white, if you don't like it, don't work for them, its really that simple.


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## northernsweeper

Ramairfreak98ss;1054017 said:


> I always worry about stuff like this, thats a really poor seat to be sitting in right now:/ I feel for ya. We were notified from MY insurance agent that there was apparently a slip and fall this past winter, yet the woman made no claim, i figured id be one more reason for them not to pay. Ive waited far too long and the attorney will be drafting letters next week. We just completed a ton of work for them too out of the CA office and almost all of it is paid to this date... sucks to lose that if this goes downhill from here.


 I hear ya. All we can do sometimes,is be thankfull for what we have,(able to pay bills) and keep pluggin away. Some years seem like one step ahead and two back.


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## ColumbiaLand

USM had a rep at the SIMA symposium this year for a class called "working with national service providers" They other two national companies that had reps there were talking during the class were really great and after hearing them I would work for them in a heartbeat. When the usm rep started to talk after a contractor questioned their payment terms, snow rebate program and their new not paying reputation most of the contractors in the room left and would not talk or listen to the rep from USM. Dont work for them its that simple


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## Westhardt Corp.

I wasn't able to attend the expo, but I heard similar stories from colleagues that did. I seem to recall the phrase "blood on the floor" from one of them--not pretty. Frankly, I was a little surprised that the USM rep didn't "fall ill" and bow out of it altogether.

I think that (hypothetically speaking) the "contractors" that USM seeks are not necessarily the type who frequent things like trade show, expos, symposiums and training conferences. Just my opinion, though...


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## lawn king

The usm contract is posted here at plowsite. I dont see myself, how anyone could sign that contract and not expect to encounter serious issues with them?


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## SIMASTAFF

Hi all,
This is Brian with SIMA, I'd like to weigh in and give you our perspective. First, I am seeing some information in the posts in this thread that are inaccurate related to our session at the show, and I just want all of you to be cautious about what you post here (especially if you weren't there), as it is a very public forum and false statements aren't good for plowsite.com. Second, I'll be honest, I really don't appreciate one of our panelists being singled-out and bashed, no matter how you feel about the company he works for---he stood up in the front of a tough room and I think he deserves credit and recognition, no more or less than the other panelists who stood up there with me in the panel. All of the panelists during this session showed courage, imagine the anger that is shared on this site all the time, they walked into that session knowing they were going to be under some fire...these guys faced it, and we all spent about 5 hours preparing together for weeks prior to the event. I helped moderate the session and I knew how challenging it would be; but we knew we had to do it anyway, because as an industry we have to do more than just vent in order to move forward. I know there are folks out there who agree with this statement!

We had some great information for the panel, including some shared by Sean that laid out the perspective of the global view of the facilities/property management industry...we also had some really great tips and discussion points about contracts/bidding/working with national management companies; however, there were several people in the room who more wanted to try to prove a point about how they felt about national companies-at times it felt like more of a political environment with folks trying to show how strongly they felt about the issue and how they could get their lumps in, instead of a back and forth dialogue about how we can resolve the issues out there. I understand this and I think we gave these folks a public venue to let out some of their frustrations, but it was unfortunate because we had a lot of good information to share that we didn't get to because of some of the anger.

SIMA is making a concerted, long-term effort to help snow professionals approach this huge change that is occurring in our industry related to national work. We'll be building some help into our Beyond the Bid program taking place in August in Hartford, CT, and our publication Snow Business is just finishing the second portion of a series of articles on the issue of nationals (the first article was in our May/June issue), and we'll be announcing more resources soon. There are ways that snow contractors are working in the national management environment, it's not as black and white as it is sometimes portrayed here, I believe. If you'd like to chat more about the positive steps SIMA is taking, email me at [email protected] and I'd be happy to tell you more...thanks


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## ajslands

Well I'm glad I'm not the only mature one here


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## Camden

SIMASTAFF;1054449 said:


> Second, I'll be honest, I really don't appreciate one of our panelists being singled-out and bashed, no matter how you feel about the company he works for---he stood up in the front of a tough room and I think he deserves credit and recognition, no more or less than the other panelists who stood up there with me in the panel.


So let me get this straight, you claim that you're an advocate for our industry but yet you're defending one of the companies who's trying to destroy it? Interesting...


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## Mick76

Brian,
I was at that session and Columbia hit the nail right on the head. I know you tried to keep order but think about it. Why is there soooo much anger toward usm? You know why and I'm sure you wouldn't want your reply posted on this forum. I am happy that plowsite will put such posts on this site. Without them (even though they get deleted most of the time and I realize why) I wouldn't have realized what type of company usm is. MY OPINION, NOT THAT OF PLOWSITE is that I will never work for that company. Theres why too much risk involved with them (both on the liability side and on the account recievable side). I have the utmost respect for AGMG and I just met the other company at the session. I feel bad for other companies that HAVE to work for these guys. In my opinion, its companies like this that are having the most negitive effect on the business. Now i understand why these bigger retail chains are using them but in the long run these type of nationals are what hurting the industry the most.

If I can suggest anything to SIMA, This should be your biggest focus in the years to come..... 

Mike


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## Westhardt Corp.

Brian, thanks for chiming in on this. Good to know that SIMA is taking an active role in making this "transition" as trouble free as possible for everyone. But I think a great start to eliminating the animosity that you saw at the session would be to insist that the national providers stop issuing contracts that are so blatantly (and unrealistically) biased. We all write our contracts with our own protection and best interests in mind, of course. But the handful of national provider agreements I have read are nothing short of disgraceful.

I think everyone wants to fix this problem, but the ball is in their court first. Contracts are the foundation, here.


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## JohnnyRoyale

Come on Brian...sign in with another identity and tell us how you REALLY feel.


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## Luther

Ohhhh, very hot topic! 

Many of us tout SIMA and their efforts, and are long term members of the organization. It's good to see that Brian has chimed in on this. I would like to see more of his comments regarding this matter. I hope this thread doesn't get heated to the point where the mods will be compelled to do their thing. 

Brian is in a tough position here. I think in order for him to do his job he almost needs to please everyone, all the time. This is hardly possible.

We know SIMA does a great job recognizing individuals and companies for their contributions and accomplishments in our industry. There is a lot of concern with the business practices of some. Is it possible that SIMA can find a way to shed light on those who have shone to be unprincipled and deceitful in their course of business to members and/or others in the industry? I'm not sure how they can go about doing this without being accused of slander to some degree. 

It would benefit the members....and is it really a bad thing to dis-associate yourself with unscrupulous players? Time will tell if they can figure out a way to do this.

In the mean time I'm glad this forum does exist and people are able to share their experiences with others whether it be good or bad. 


BTW.....where's SpankyVonShponk?


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## lilweeds

Brian,

I have great respect for SIMA and some of it's members, but I don't understand how so many people can have problems with the same company. 

To the others, I assume AGMG was one of the others, who was the third?

I work with a few nationals/regionals, and am considering trying something new. If others are interested in trying something new send me a PM.


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## RLM

I was not at the Symposium this year, nor have I dealt with USM. However I have read there contract, looked there app, they wanted way to much info, employee names etc, just ignored them from that point. I have dealt with two other "nationals", one still owes me 7K from 3 years ago (snow & lawn work), there were no issues with the work we did or paperwork. The other we deal with now (just lawn work) are great at paying, get on my case about getting them bills quicker so they can pay me, they can be demanding at times but I think that is the site we do for them, they just pass along the message. Unfortunataly I think the nationals are just like any other contactors, you get some great, some good & some horrible, how many nightmares about builders, snowplowrs are out there ? No different


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## Matson Snow

SIMA is in a tough position....But, they need to look at the best interest of it Membership..

I am a Member and i just dont understand why SIMA would go to bat for a company like USM....

I have one of USMs contracts sitting on my deck right now. I was thinking about doing some work for them this year...BUT, after reading it...Not a chance..That contract alone raises so many red flags...Have you read one of their contracts Brian????

All i can say to SIMA is, just do whats in the best interest of the masses ( Your Membership) and not the select few.....


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## shooterm

Camden;1054035 said:


> It makes perfect sense for a large corporation to use a national maintenance company. For instance, instead of Walmart looking for thousands of contractors to service their stores they just let USM do the leg work. It saves them HUGE amounts of time and money. We as contractors may not like it but that's the reality.


Thats my point any town a walmart is in has a service company. Did walmart all the sudden decide it doesnt want to lowest price service/product? Its anti-walmart to just add a middle man to make it convenient. No money is saved and time is added because they just added another step.


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## shooterm

I'm sorry I was wrong not all city service companies change light bulbs and repaint white walls.


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## ajslands

So does usm personaly do snow removal and lawn care or do they jus hire subs?


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## snowman5313

Well after my latest email I do think that most of you don't accept the simple point that things change. Usm is here and they have the work. You don't have to work for them. Right now most of my work is subcontracted. I do an east side location of a national company. I was just asked to lower my price or face losing the work. I thought about it and emailed it right back to my contractor. I took a pay cut for three simple reasons. 1. The economy is crap. Look at all the guys going after work. 2. My guys need to eat too. 3. The company pays. That is very important. They have never taken me out over 30 days in the last 8 years. 

Some of you look at snow plowing as business is business. Thats fine. But you do leave yourself wide open for national companys to come in and put a foot in the door. They look at it the same way you do. The difference is they have more resources and they use them. 

I was also informed that the subcontractor on the west side of town won't cut his price. I said I'd do the work for the price offered. You can think what ever you want but I like working and getting paid.


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## buckwheat_la

I work for 2 different nationals and they pay within 2 weeks, and are easy to deal with, fair about conflict resolution and pay a fair price, in general they respect their subcontractors, and in return they get great service and their clients are happy. I have not seen anything about USM that makes me think that they care about their subs. All the big providers in my area have agreed to share info on experiences with nationals, i think that for all of us providers/snow contractors to survive, we need to band together. Places like USM are thinking that they are doing good buisness, but what they are really doing is forcing the subcontractors to start price fixing.


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## Italiano67

snowman5313;1054569 said:


> Well after my latest email I do think that most of you don't accept the simple point that things change. Usm is here and they have the work. You don't have to work for them. Right now most of my work is subcontracted. I do an east side location of a national company. I was just asked to lower my price or face losing the work. I thought about it and emailed it right back to my contractor. I took a pay cut for three simple reasons. 1. The economy is crap. Look at all the guys going after work. 2. My guys need to eat too. 3. The company pays. That is very important. They have never taken me out over 30 days in the last 8 years.
> 
> Some of you look at snow plowing as business is business. Thats fine. But you do leave yourself wide open for national companys to come in and put a foot in the door. They look at it the same way you do. The difference is they have more resources and they use them.
> 
> I was also informed that the subcontractor on the west side of town won't cut his price. I said I'd do the work for the price offered. You can think what ever you want but I like working and getting paid.


The lower you decide you can do work for the lower the price will be in the future.
it is a downward spiral and when it comes time to upgrade equipment etc. there wont be any cash to do it. I say hold the line and work profitably or dont do it at all. There are alot of angles to our business that we dont get paid for already( being on call, weather conditions, holidays, etc). We are just hurting ourselves by feeding on the crumbs the nationals offer. I am talking about the bigger locations such as Walmart. The cost of replacing equipment is very high and the nationals are basically renting yours very cheaply and leaving you with all of the problems.


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## Mick76

snowman5313;1054569 said:


> Well after my latest email I do think that most of you don't accept the simple point that things change. Usm is here and they have the work. You don't have to work for them. Right now most of my work is subcontracted. I do an east side location of a national company. I was just asked to lower my price or face losing the work. I thought about it and emailed it right back to my contractor. I took a pay cut for three simple reasons. 1. The economy is crap. Look at all the guys going after work. 2. My guys need to eat too. 3. The company pays. That is very important. They have never taken me out over 30 days in the last 8 years.
> 
> Some of you look at snow plowing as business is business. Thats fine. But you do leave yourself wide open for national companys to come in and put a foot in the door. They look at it the same way you do. The difference is they have more resources and they use them.
> 
> I was also informed that the subcontractor on the west side of town won't cut his price. I said I'd do the work for the price offered. You can think what ever you want but I like working and getting paid.


Why are you getting greedy? "Your guys have to eat" you state but took a pay cut on your first location that you've had for 8 years. Now your "expanding" and took a pay cut when the other co didn't. Seems you had enough work with the first location and your one of those fools thats bringing down prices......


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

*Thank you, Fran Taylor...*

...for getting involved here on Plowsite, to help resolve the issues that many contractors have _attempted_ to discuss here.

I think your involvement will prove to be beneficial, although it should be noted that threads regarding USM tend to be short-lived (as was the prior thread that you introduced yourself in). Hopefully, your presence here may change that.

I also think it is in the best interests of the Plowsite.com members that an open discussion be allowed on the topic, so that many questions can be answered in a convenient manner. However, this will require contractors to maintain control of their emotions--take note, guys.



(wow, that was fast) LOL


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

***zzzooomm*** 

Sweet, I got teleported!


----------



## Mick76

Were did Fran go?......


----------



## Westhardt Corp.




----------



## Camden

Thanks to the mods for opening this back up. So far this thread has been very civilized with a lot of good people making great posts. I hope it keeps up.


----------



## Luther

Camden;1054721 said:


> Thanks to the mods for opening this back up. So far this thread has been very civilized with a lot of good people making great posts. I hope it keeps up.


I agree.

But...


Mick76;1054717 said:


> Were did Fran go?......


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

I do think it was an interesting strategy to close the thread since Fran posted her contact info...but to then re-open the thread and _delete _ the post containing said contact info.


----------



## Mick76

I've got it if anyone wants it......


----------



## Mike_PS

ok guys, I didn't just remove it...I was asked to so don't shoot the messenger ok


----------



## Luther

Well, that answers that question.


----------



## Mick76

Mike, can we ask why? I feel we're finally getting somewhere with this stuff and now back to the same stuff as usual...Why isn't usm willing to talk about this stuff either on the forum or in private .... the same anger will still be present


----------



## Luther

RUT ROW! 

3....2.....1.....POOF!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

Public discussion will save a lot of time & confusion. Also eliminates "he said/she said"....


----------



## Longae29

.....and also gets a bunch of people throwing in their $.02 that don't have a clue what they're talking about except for what their buddies buddy told them who is pissed off because they "lost" "their" walmart last year, or there was an insurance issue, where the poster is possibly telling the whole story, so only a part of 1/2 the whole story is being told. This is a lose/lose situation for plowsite.com and usm. Contractors need to read the contract that they are offering, if they don't like it, don't work for them, its plain and simple. and if they legitimately owe you money, call your attorney, don't whine on an internet discussion board, do something about it.


----------



## USM

*USM Correspondent*

Everyone please be patient I had to remove the post for now. I will be checking in and if anyone would like to contact me please feel free. Oh a BTW it is MR. Fran Taylor.

Fran Taylor
USM


----------



## snowman5313

Both of you missed the point. I know my bottom line. The point I tried to make was that since the other guy won't look at lowering his price with this good contractor a company like usm can move in the area. Besides signs of the time are you will lower your price or lose your work. My equipment is paid for my guys are efficent and affective. 

Stuff I'm bidding this year is going for 40% what it did 5 years ago. I don't care what you guys say when it comes to my bottom line. I know some of you don't budge and get away with it. I just lost my last contract that I haven't budged on (I have been doing for 10 years now for the same price.) They went with a large landscaping company in the area for half the price of mine.

So when it comes to working for USM I will do the work, I will give them great service, and I will READ THE CONTRACT EVERY MONTH. But they will not be my only customer. They will not have me by my balls. I will spend the money on a lawyer if it goes south.


----------



## Kramer

Italiano67;1054635 said:


> The lower you decide you can do work for the lower the price will be in the future.
> it is a downward spiral and when it comes time to upgrade equipment etc. there wont be any cash to do it. I say hold the line and work profitably or dont do it at all. There are alot of angles to our business that we dont get paid for already( being on call, weather conditions, holidays, etc). We are just hurting ourselves by feeding on the crumbs the nationals offer. I am talking about the bigger locations such as Walmart. The cost of replacing equipment is very high and the nationals are basically renting yours very cheaply and leaving you with all of the problems.


This is the only forward thinking response I've read in this thread.

Instead of everyone hitting USM or Sima, maybe people should look at the price erosion they are creating everytime they sign up.

Being in your own business is about independence. It's not about begging some national company to let you do walmart at whatever pricve they deem acceptable.

I know people have to work but I assure you that in 10 years time the nationals will be completely controlling their environment even more and if you don't think so either you know nothing of business or you're so busy just trying to make ends meet that you haven't noticed that you're the frog in the ever increasing temp of a pot of water.

example (ficticious dates)

1990--national co opens business with a college kid who knows nothing of lawncare or plowing
1992--the kid hires a staff to make cold calls getting info on pricing, and segregates it by zones
1994--the kid sends out bid packages to area plowers as he has the environment down and has made slight progress in low balling
1996 --the kid now shows more balls and starts controlling contracts with subs

1996-2002-- the kid adds more contractual control a little at a time. He has no trouble paying his staff as the hit the plow guys take easily hand him a profit

2002-2008-- the kid makes a lot of headway with commercials as he gets outside funding to cover any holes, thus keeping the customers who get a good plow job for cheap

2008-2010-- the kid and his investors start making a killig becuase they now have th work volume to support any holes, so they ratchet up the control and REMOVE their own liability

2010--2015--every commercial around signs with a national due to theiir all in one pitch and low prices. This is amplified as facility managers attend seminars and are told of otheres "controlling their costs" better thru a national. At this point, they have zero liability, they pay when and if they want, and people subbing to them either completely kiss their azz or have no business.

2015------>>> There are a few large snow contractors signing up and the rest of the sheep sub to them for even less money. Then they get on plowsite and complain about SIMA and USM.

WAKE UP


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss

SIMASTAFF;1054449 said:


> Hi all,
> This is Brian with SIMA, I'd like to weigh in and give you our perspective. First, I am seeing some information in the posts in this thread that are inaccurate related to our session at the show, and I just want all of you to be cautious about what you post here (especially if you weren't there), as it is a very public forum and false statements aren't good for plowsite.com. Second, I'll be honest, I really don't appreciate one of our panelists being singled-out and bashed, no matter how you feel about the company he works for---he stood up in the front of a tough room and I think he deserves credit and recognition, no more or less than the other panelists who stood up there with me in the panel. All of the panelists during this session showed courage, imagine the anger that is shared on this site all the time, they walked into that session knowing they were going to be under some fire...these guys faced it, and we all spent about 5 hours preparing together for weeks prior to the event. I helped moderate the session and I knew how challenging it would be; but we knew we had to do it anyway, because as an industry we have to do more than just vent in order to move forward. I know there are folks out there who agree with this statement!
> 
> We had some great information for the panel, including some shared by Sean that laid out the perspective of the global view of the facilities/property management industry...we also had some really great tips and discussion points about contracts/bidding/working with national management companies; however, there were several people in the room who more wanted to try to prove a point about how they felt about national companies-at times it felt like more of a political environment with folks trying to show how strongly they felt about the issue and how they could get their lumps in, instead of a back and forth dialogue about how we can resolve the issues out there. I understand this and I think we gave these folks a public venue to let out some of their frustrations, but it was unfortunate because we had a lot of good information to share that we didn't get to because of some of the anger.
> 
> SIMA is making a concerted, long-term effort to help snow professionals approach this huge change that is occurring in our industry related to national work. We'll be building some help into our Beyond the Bid program taking place in August in Hartford, CT, and our publication Snow Business is just finishing the second portion of a series of articles on the issue of nationals (the first article was in our May/June issue), and we'll be announcing more resources soon. There are ways that snow contractors are working in the national management environment, it's not as black and white as it is sometimes portrayed here, I believe. If you'd like to chat more about the positive steps SIMA is taking, email me at [email protected] and I'd be happy to tell you more...thanks


Brian, its good to hear SIMA is at very least aware of the issues at hand :/ Ive considered joining your group for the last 2 or 3 years and have not mainly A. Because there is a cost, sure i can afford it, but its the fact that it costs anything and i dont see it as anything more than a marketing credential at best. Why does it seem like your on the defense for companies that had reps up there talking? And if so, did they at least address these issues or just try to pull the snow over the contractors heads as if its jsut a bunch of rowdy contractors pissing and moaning around? Contracts are in place to protect everyone involved, the contractor, company, client etc. When a company has these type of contracts in place that cant have amendments added or clauses removed and are many pages longer than needed, its bad business, plain and simple.

If you can say that you know more about the situation with this company than i do dealing with them for years now, feel free to shoot me an email. Im a fair and honest guy, i always give everyone the benefit of the doubt and feel i go out of my way to make things right and put the extra effort into any job even if i know a problem that arose wasnt our fault yet blame is placed on us. I have good and bad things to say about a lot of larger companies and 90% of the problems are with the snow removal industry.

I'd gladly join sima if i felt it was a serious/professional group that had heavy ties into creating a "family business" type atmosphere relationship between, clients, subcontractors and national management companies. Maybe i just dont know nearly enough about Sima to give them a fair recommendation? [email protected]


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss

Westhardt Corp.;1054456 said:


> Brian, thanks for chiming in on this. Good to know that SIMA is taking an active role in making this "transition" as trouble free as possible for everyone. But I think a great start to eliminating the animosity that you saw at the session would be to insist that the national providers stop issuing contracts that are so blatantly (and unrealistically) biased. We all write our contracts with our own protection and best interests in mind, of course. But the handful of national provider agreements I have read are nothing short of disgraceful.
> 
> I think everyone wants to fix this problem, but the ball is in their court first. Contracts are the foundation, here.


 well said :salute:


----------



## SIMASTAFF

*Sima*

Hello all,
Interesting exchange, its never dull on this site! My goal in the original post I put up was to make sure that I shared with all of you the effort and preparation that went into the national management panel. I feel like all of the panelists took the time to meet extensively and prepare a solid presentation, and I do wish we could have achieved a bit more at the session. However, overall I received great feedback from many people at the session, including the ones who were most upset...quite a few of them had an opportunity to personally talk to the panelists afterwards, so I am confident that SIMA is and will be providing a number of avenues for folks to air and hopefully resolve their grievances. We are not going to take sides in any of these issues, and I do not think we are in a tough position at all, I think we are continually more clear and proactive now that we have ever been as an association on this issue. If we can have a positive influence on all parties involved over time, we'll have done our job well.

My job at SIMA is to build and create better and more educational opportunities for snow professionals. That is the core strength of what SIMA is and does, we help connect people across the country to learn from each other and grow professionally. I appreciate the role this site plays in the national dialogue in our industry--I think that our industry is going through a great deal of change, and I really believe that SIMA can positively influence the long term results, but this is a huge system with thousands of companies and individuals, and things won't change overnight. This will be my last post to this thread, I feel like I've contributed what I wanted to and heard many thoughts from all of you...thanks!
Brian


----------



## ajslands

SIMASTAFF;1054804 said:


> Hello all,
> Interesting exchange, its never dull on this site! My goal in the original post I put up was to make sure that I shared with all of you the effort and preparation that went into the national management panel. I feel like all of the panelists took the time to meet extensively and prepare a solid presentation, and I do wish we could have achieved a bit more at the session. However, overall I received great feedback from many people at the session, including the ones who were most upset...quite a few of them had an opportunity to personally talk to the panelists afterwards, so I am confident that SIMA is and will be providing a number of avenues for folks to air and hopefully resolve their grievances. We are not going to take sides in any of these issues, and I do not think we are in a tough position at all, I think we are continually more clear and proactive now that we have ever been as an association on this issue. If we can have a positive influence on all parties involved over time, we'll have done our job well.
> 
> My job at SIMA is to build and create better and more educational opportunities for snow professionals. That is the core strength of what SIMA is and does, we help connect people across the country to learn from each other and grow professionally. I appreciate the role this site plays in the national dialogue in our industry--I think that our industry is going through a great deal of change, and I really believe that SIMA can positively influence the long term results, but this is a huge system with thousands of companies and individuals, and things won't change overnight. This will be my last post to this thread, I feel like I've contributed what I wanted to and heard many thoughts from all of you...thanks!
> Brian


so will usm be at that build a bid in columbus?


----------



## dumbyankee

I fail to understand why any one would even consider working for a management company. Stop and think about it. You have all the expences & liabilty, the breakdowns at 2:00 am in the middle of a storm, the time away from your family, so that some **** head in a suit can pull 30% from the top. To hell with them. If you put in the time, you better get paid. And by the way, I have found that most people who fall or slip, didnt wear the foot wear needed for the weather. Not getting paid because someone fell, sorry not a reason. Trust me the management company got paid.


----------



## buckwheat_la

dumbyankee;1054842 said:


> I fail to understand why any one would even consider working for a management company. Stop and think about it. You have all the expences & liabilty, the breakdowns at 2:00 am in the middle of a storm, the time away from your family, so that some **** head in a suit can pull 30% from the top. To hell with them. If you put in the time, you better get paid. And by the way, I have found that most people who fall or slip, didnt wear the foot wear needed for the weather. Not getting paid because someone fell, sorry not a reason. Trust me the management company got paid.


not all management companies are wrong or bad, they do the leg work to arrange mulitple contracts and are paid by the companies they represent to do that leg work.

Good Management Company
-pays contractors in a timely manner
-knows the area it services
-is keenly aware and anticipates problems/circumstances both the contractor and their clients may need

Bad Management Company
-more worried about stuffing as many contracts into one as possible
-getting those contracts done the cheapest way possible
-knows (or cares) little about the clients they service or their needs
-treats the contractors poorly, (a contract should be in place to make BOTH parties feel secure)
-more worried about bottom line then doing things right

I am very interested to see a USM rep subscribing to this thread, I hope to hear some interesting points from the other side of the fence (but i have a feeling it is going to become a "don't slander us or we well sue" type conversation)


----------



## JohnnyRoyale

buckwheat_la;1054898 said:


> not all management companies are wrong or bad, they do the leg work to arrange mulitple contracts and are paid by the companies they represent to do that leg work.
> 
> Good Management Company
> -pays contractors in a timely manner
> -knows the area it services
> -is keenly aware and anticipates problems/circumstances both the contractor and their clients may need
> 
> Bad Management Company
> -more worried about stuffing as many contracts into one as possible
> -getting those contracts done the cheapest way possible
> -knows (or cares) little about the clients they service or their needs
> -treats the contractors poorly, (a contract should be in place to make BOTH parties feel secure)
> -more worried about bottom line then doing things right
> 
> I am very interested to see a USM rep subscribing to this thread, I hope to hear some interesting points from the other side of the fence (but i have a feeling it is going to become a "don't slander us or we well sue" type conversation)


Just wanted to add that....

Good management companies will put the job out for bids, possibly prequalify contractors, evaluate contractors abilities and capacities then evaluate bids recieved and make a decision in the best interest of their client.


----------



## Luther

Kramer;1054785 said:


> 2010--2015--every commercial around signs with a national due to theiir all in one pitch and low prices.


:laughing: 
Their are plenty of commercial properties that will not go with the low bidder. Many also do not want their dollars going anywhere other than the local economy. There's a lot to be gained having strong relationships with your clients.



buckwheat_la;1054898 said:


> I am very interested to see a USM rep subscribing to this thread, I hope to hear some interesting points from the other side of the fence (but i have a feeling it is going to become a "don't slander us or we well sue" type conversation)


I am too. I wouldn't conclude anything at this point.....it remains to be seen how they deal with answering the concerns and frustrations of those they have chosen to conduct business with now that Fran has admittedly committed himself to this.

USM is not the biggest threat or concern out there.


----------



## Mick76

snowman5313;1054782 said:


> They will not have me by my balls. I will spend the money on a lawyer if it goes south.


If you sign that contract, they'll have more then just your balls. You can spend all the $ on a lawyer you want... YOU signed the contract that YOU"VE agree too....... your SOL at that point......

Good luck too you and I hope you make a "killing" this year.....


----------



## Mick76

TCLA;1054917
USM is not the biggest threat or concern out there.[/QUOTE said:


> TCLA,
> 
> I think their in the top 3.


----------



## Luther

Mick76;1054919 said:


> TCLA,
> 
> I think their in the top 3.


That could be Mick. I don't know their ranking, nor does it really matter to me.

USM is not on my list of real concerns or threats. We (TCLA) will have no problem co-existing with them out there.


----------



## Kramer

TCLA;1054917 said:


> :laughing:
> Their are plenty of commercial properties that will not go with the low bidder. Many also do not want their dollars going anywhere other than the local economy. There's a lot to be gained having strong relationships with your clients.
> 
> I am too. I wouldn't conclude anything at this point.....it remains to be seen how they deal with answering the concerns and frustrations of those they have chosen to conduct business with now that Fran has admittedly committed himself to this.
> 
> USM is not the biggest threat or concern out there.


TCLA---who are you kidding??

The large nationals will go after the big fish first. Thats why Walmart and so on are at the top of the list.

There's no doubt that customer relations is imperative, but money talks. Moreover, big companies like working with big companies. I'm not saying that your local dentist doesn't have a choice or is not loyal. I'm saying that over time, the national companies will work their way as far as they can and any large contracts will be under their control. At that point you will either be a very large operation kissing their butt for low wages and subbing out to others cause you cant afford to keep your own equip, or you'll be subbing to a larger operation making peanuts.

Ten years ago if someone told you that you'd have to kiss USM's butt to get into a Walmart you would have laughed at them. Not so funny any more. So 3 yrs ago you do Walmart for $25K a yr...now you do it for $10 K with the same equip., sign a contract allowing them all kind of excuses not to pay, then you come here and think you have a good deal??

I'd venture to say that within 3 years they will be sending you a magnetic sign with USM on it to hang on your door while plowing. Think thats far fetched? Think again. After they make enough off your efforts how long do you think it will be before they start investing in their own equipment? They already have the contracts---what do you have??? Stop dreaming in yesteryear.

So the ultimate choice is to either not work for them at all at which point you choke them out, or, you work for them and watch your business become a parasite to them. Your choice, but please look ahead more than " I think my customers are loyal to mne". Guess what... when those customers can't afford you because Obama has cranked up the IRS, then you will see how loyal they are.


----------



## Luther

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## Westhardt Corp.

USM;1054747 said:


> Everyone please be patient I had to remove the post for now. I will be checking in and if anyone would like to contact me please feel free. Oh a BTW it is MR. Fran Taylor.
> 
> Fran Taylor
> USM


My apologies, Fran!!

Looking forward to the dialogue...


----------



## Matson Snow

Kramer;1054931 said:


> TCLA---who are you kidding??
> 
> The large nationals will go after the big fish first. Thats why Walmart and so on are at the top of the list.
> 
> There's no doubt that customer relations is imperative, but money talks. Moreover, big companies like working with big companies. I'm not saying that your local dentist doesn't have a choice or is not loyal. I'm saying that over time, the national companies will work their way as far as they can and any large contracts will be under their control. At that point you will either be a very large operation kissing their butt for low wages and subbing out to others cause you cant afford to keep your own equip, or you'll be subbing to a larger operation making peanuts.
> 
> Ten years ago if someone told you that you'd have to kiss USM's butt to get into a Walmart you would have laughed at them. Not so funny any more. So 3 yrs ago you do Walmart for $25K a yr...now you do it for $10 K with the same equip., sign a contract allowing them all kind of excuses not to pay, then you come here and think you have a good deal??
> 
> *I'd venture to say that within 3 years they will be sending you a magnetic sign with USM on it to hang on your door while plowing*. Think thats far fetched? Think again. After they make enough off your efforts how long do you think it will be before they start investing in their own equipment? They already have the contracts---what do you have??? Stop dreaming in yesteryear.
> 
> So the ultimate choice is to either not work for them at all at which point you choke them out, or, you work for them and watch your business become a parasite to them. Your choice, but please look ahead more than " I think my customers are loyal to mne". Guess what... when those customers can't afford you because Obama has cranked up the IRS, then you will see how loyal they are.


Hey Jim...Can i be one of the first ones..Beside you and Troy to get those magnetic signs from you to hang on my Truck this Winter...:laughing:


----------



## lilweeds

I don't understand the whole USM and Walmart thing. Our local Walmarts are still being taking care of locally. And they are on yearly contracts.... Now it could because the people servicing them are doing it at a reasonable rate IDK.


----------



## snowbrothers101

Fellow members, we all know that certain companies like USM are hear to stay. However, not is all bad. In just the last year, USM lost Borders, Cumberland Farms, Lowes, and many others. While they continue to grow with Walmart (they were just awarded 3,000 sites for land and lot and another 1,000 sites for snow this upcoming season) and are claiming they now do $100 million with Walmart, other retailers like Target, Best Buy, Bank of America and others are seeing that not only is USM's focus not on them anymore but that what they were getting was not meeting their needs.

While USM might be here to stay (although not their CEO who was fired reportedly over signing the Walmart contract), their presence on most of the major retailers and banks is not a guarantee. Continue to make your own decisions and I believe fate will ultimately decide USM's future in this business. 

And maybe the rumors of their parent company selling the USM piece of their $3 billion global company to Aramark will bring about real change.


----------



## Kramer

Matson Snow;1054977 said:


> Hey Jim...Can i be one of the first ones..Beside you and Troy to get those magnetic signs from you to hang on my Truck this Winter...:laughing:


Yes my friends, laugh it up now. I see you're not one of the people that USM owes thousands to for their work. I'm not sure those guys are laughing it up.

Heres a question:

How much money does USM or the other nationals make per year?

Just what do you think their overhead is?

So how much cash flow do you think they have that they can continue putting into more marketing/sales?

Now, what States or region do you personally have locked in?

I hope nyou find it funny when you get that call about doing some of your existing customers for half price. I'm sure it will be a hoot when you do thousands of dollars worth of work and dont get paid because you violated a term in the contract.

I really hope you get a good belly laugh when you see someone else doing one of those customers that you thought you had locked in.

And I hope if you have a son who wants to be in the snow business that you have a great laugh with him when he can't enter into an area because its locked up by a national.

I hope you're right-- I hope theres enough work out there to support everyone when everyone in the food chain starts moving down because they couldn't do what they did last year.

From the posts on plowsite and obvious anger I'd say there aren't too many people laughing about the situation right now. Gooid thing thats their problem not yours huh?? :laughing:


----------



## dayexco

buckwheat_la;1054898 said:


> "don't slander us or we well sue" type conversation)


i actually have an email from USM that says JUST that. and with USM threads disappearing here several months ago....there had to be some outside influence.


----------



## mullis56

http://www.transfieldservices.com/p...es_awarded_major_contract_by_global_retailer/

Looks like they just maintained what they had last season as on July 26, 2010!


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## dumbyankee

The bottom line: Management compines will not buy their own equipment, it costs too much. They will keep putting the bids out hoping another contractor will pick up the account. There will allways be the new guy out there that will bid on the job and get it. The new guy will not understand what he just signed for the agreement and will be out of business in a year or two because he cant afford to fix or up grade his equipment. Once he goes under, the next new guy will start the cycle all over. If the job cant cover your expences, and turn a good profit, why do it. Most of all why let a management company pull from the top and let you have all the risk. Its simple, If you want to be an employee, then find a job, if you want to run your own business, then do it. If you sub to a management company, your an employee with all the risk and no benifit. DAAAAAA


----------



## buckwheat_la

dumbyankee;1055077 said:


> The bottom line: Management compines will not buy their own equipment, it costs too much. They will keep putting the bids out hoping another contractor will pick up the account. There will allways be the new guy out there that will bid on the job and get it. The new guy will not understand what he just signed for the agreement and will be out of business in a year or two because he cant afford to fix or up grade his equipment. Once he goes under, the next new guy will start the cycle all over. If the job cant cover your expences, and turn a good profit, why do it. Most of all why let a management company pull from the top and let you have all the risk. Its simple, If you want to be an employee, then find a job, if you want to run your own business, then do it. If you sub to a management company, your an employee with all the risk and no benifit. DAAAAAA


you have obviously never worked with a decent management company, have you?


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## dumbyankee

OK, describe what a good management is. Why should I work for one when I can manage my own properties.
I also realize ( I ) can not manage 3,000 Walmarts, but why should I give a percentage of my labor to a paper jockie when I can do it my self. Why should I be delayed payment because the company I am dealing with is in another time zone. Why am I burning up my equipment for less than what the account is worth. Management company or Leech. Sorry dont have a need to have the life sucked out of my company. By the way, I do manage property, I do not sub out the services, I keep them in house where I can keep an eye on them. Who pays on time, who dosent, and keep a very close eye on the quality of workmenship. Nice quote, I may use it in the future. But it didnt apply.


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## buckwheat_la

dumbyankee;1055106 said:


> OK, describe what a good management is. Why should I work for one when I can manage my own properties.
> I also realize ( I ) can not manage 3,000 Walmarts, but why should I give a percentage of my labor to a paper jockie when I can do it my self. Why should I be delayed payment because the company I am dealing with is in another time zone. Why am I burning up my equipment for less than what the account is worth. Management company or Leech. Sorry dont have a need to have the life sucked out of my company. By the way, I do manage property, I do not sub out the services, I keep them in house where I can keep an eye on them. Who pays on time, who dosent, and keep a very close eye on the quality of workmenship. Nice quote, I may use it in the future. But it didnt apply.


I made a description on a good managment property already, but I well tell you about the experience I have with the three management companies i deal with.

First off, my price rates are not significantly alterd, and my prices depend on how much work I get from them. I get paid within 30 days, sometimes even 7 days if I ask. I got all the RBC banks, then subsequently the TD and Scotia banks by doing a great job with the first contracts I had with this management company, I did no leg work for it. When other snow removal companies approached the management company I am dealing with, they were told that they were happy with the contractor (ME) that they had already. I have never had a serious problem. The biggest thing for me dealing with a management company is networking, the management company I deal with bases its reputation on my work, and likewise for me, and we both recogonize that as long as we both work our aspecs, we both benefit from what the other has to offer.


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## buckwheat_la

check the springwise thread on here, they seem like a great management company


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## Pristine PM ltd

Buckwheat... I am a bit confused. I deal with alot of management companies, but what USM is, is very different from these types of companies. 

These companies manage the property. USM is being hired to maintain the property. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but they are basically a contractor that is huge. Comparing doing banks to what they do are very much apples to oranges.


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## buckwheat_la

manage vs maintain I am not sure i understand the difference, in the case of Bee-Clean, they clean the inside of the building, and sub out the exterior work, and take care of most the other maintenance issues. Are you saying that USM only takes care of the SNOW?!?!


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## Pristine PM ltd

What I am saying is that they are basically a maintenance company at their core. My understanding is that they do the landscaping, snow, power washing, and maybe other things with cleaning. 

They get the contract for x, get someone to do that work for x-%. Go from there.

A management company is hired by Company X to take care of everything to do with their building, the budgets, the brick work, the roof... anything you can think of. Legal issues even. They are paid a yearly fee to do the work, and the customer still signs the cheques to the workers. When you work for USM the pay you, not Wal-Mart.

I don't think we deal with the type of company that USM is in Canada. I may be wrong, but I don't see it in my industry. I have taken care of properties that could easily justify it, and even quoted on a Rona (Canadian Home Depot) directly to Rona. 

You work for Property Management companies... that's all I am trying to make sure we are on the same page. I understand why anyone would have issues with USM, but I think it should be apples to apples as far as your comments about USM vs. companies you have dealt with.


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## RLM

I'll claify it for you. The "national management company" call the contractors & collects quotes for various services (snow, landscape, lot sweeping, powerwashing, cleaning etc) then marks up the quotes, sticks that numberprice) on their letterhead (contract, agreement, etc) & submits it to the client (Walmart, Target, Lowes, XYZ bank, etc). If the client agrees to the pricing, terms etc. Then the national hires the contractors whose contract is with them not the property owner, bills the national for services performed, who then bills the client (property owner). Think of the "national managment companies" as general contractors in construction.


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## northernsweeper

I hope Fran does come back to this forum. It is the best thing his company could possibly do, to begin cleaning up their image with the contractors. I called his # from his post before it was deleted, got his answering machine, and am waiting for a call back.
Like I said before, I have worked at a local chain for USM for the last 5 years. It has allowed me to pay my bills and upgrade trucks and plows. I have always been very thankfull for the work. I repaint curbs in the spring at no charge.(paint provided by chain). In the winter I give the delivery drivers my cell # and tell them if they ever have problems at the store,any time day or night to call me,whether its traction problems,need a jump or pull etc. Its all good for business,both mine and USM.
My problem with it all,is that no matter what,if I am found negligent for a slip and fall,my insurance will pay it. Thats what I have insurance for. If I am not negligent, then they won't.
So why hold my money? Come on USM send me a check


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## dumbyankee

Buckwheat sounds like you have a few management companies that are on the up and up. Its rare. Good for you. We have too many scum bag management companies in the States. By the time you get a background check done on them the job is complete. Then set back and fight to get paid. It realy sucks. At least for me, I will not deal with them. It could be a good deal. The work I have done for M.C. in the past has for the most part been smaller projects. I average getting paid once out of three. Its not the work was incorect, in most cases I did just a bit more to finish a job and make it complete, and no I did not bill out for an extra. My past experience with an M.C. has been poor. I simply will not deal with them.


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## Matson Snow

Kramer;1055011 said:


> Yes my friends, laugh it up now. I see you're not one of the people that USM owes thousands to for their work. I'm not sure those guys are laughing it up.
> 
> Heres a question:
> 
> How much money does USM or the other nationals make per year?
> 
> Just what do you think their overhead is?
> 
> So how much cash flow do you think they have that they can continue putting into more marketing/sales?
> 
> Now, what States or region do you personally have locked in?
> 
> I hope nyou find it funny when you get that call about doing some of your existing customers for half price. I'm sure it will be a hoot when you do thousands of dollars worth of work and dont get paid because you violated a term in the contract.
> 
> I really hope you get a good belly laugh when you see someone else doing one of those customers that you thought you had locked in.
> 
> And I hope if you have a son who wants to be in the snow business that you have a great laugh with him when he can't enter into an area because its locked up by a national.
> 
> I hope you're right-- I hope theres enough work out there to support everyone when everyone in the food chain starts moving down because they couldn't do what they did last year.
> 
> From the posts on plowsite and obvious anger I'd say there aren't too many people laughing about the situation right now. Gooid thing thats their problem not yours huh?? :laughing:


The Sky is falling...This is a picture of you Kramer...The Big bad USM is gonna take all our Work...Keep your comments on me to one forum so i dont have to troll around to find them.....:laughing:


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## Kramer

Matson Snow;1055268 said:


> The Sky is falling...This is a picture of you Kramer...The Big bad USM is gonna take all our Work...Keep your comments on me to one forum so i dont have to troll around to find them.....:laughing:


I think you're missing the point.

I am echoing what dumbyankee said.

Except, without knowing what their business model is, I am extrapolating that given enough cash in the bank, they *could* start buying their own equipment. It might, or might not be in their business plan. The magnetic sign reference was no joke. Did you ever hear of private labeling? If 3 years from now you rely on a contract with walmart or staples or whoever and part of the agreement is that you stick a sign on your truck with USM on it...do you really think that some people wont allow that to happen? Remember, your backs against the wall cause you need to contract.

Overall, if you don't mind working for a national, go ahead. Just be aware that you're losing some degree of control over your business and when you do, then don't come crying back a year later saying they screwed you over. They have had their contracts posted but a lot of people are taking their chances. There wouldn't be so many negative threads if it was a rosy deal.

I'm sorry that you cannot see that they and others are slowly taking over the biggest accounts. Maybe having your head in the sand is a good thing. After not getting paid, several people on here find themselves in the position of begging for money that they EARNED. If you think that's an adequate position to be in, go ahead and sign up. That's the difference in outr thinking-- not a positive or negative attitude.

And the reference to you in the other post was a joke. I was only kidding--sorry if you take it another way. I was just pointing out that the man apparently was now in a bad position and that according to your approach, everything should be OK for him. In short, his predicament is exactly what we are pointing out and I really hope it works out for him. If not, he seems willing to go another way and for that, my hats off to him. Others are not in such a controllable position.

There is no chicken little here and the sky is not falling. There is always work for those willing to chase it. The analogy is just like a union that people get sucked into thinking they will benefit and then finding out they cant get rid of it and there's no real benefit. That's all I'm pointing out.

Lose your independence and lose control of your own business. You started a business to be your own boss------now you're saying you need someone to manage you...because that's what it is. On the surface, they have the work and you're subbing. But now turn in your timecard and if they decide not to pay for whatever reason they are just walking away. They aren't managing the contracts---they are managing YOU.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

JohnnyRoyale;1054904 said:


> Just wanted to add that....
> 
> Good management companies will put the job out for bids, possibly prequalify contractors, evaluate contractors abilities and capacities then evaluate bids recieved and make a decision in the best interest of their client.


Good notation... so i've always found it amazing that a large national company could allow a company to bid on work or entertain dozens of locations or massive 1+ mil sq ft locations when the company only has one truck or NO trucks or no equipment besides a snow blower and an 8ft plow :/

On the reverse side.. we've supplied some of these same companies, with equipment lists "just excel data lists of equipment name/make/model/hrs etc", and then photos, maintenance records, age of machine, years we've owned them, lease/rental form copies for any machines we dont own, titlework, truck registrations ... i mean it gets a bit ridiculous because most of this could be forged somehow into making the national company think your bigger than you really are.

Heck i have photos from years back when i saw a Ford dealership with like 10 new boss plows sitting all lined up, you dont think someone handy with photoshop could add your company name onto the side for you and walla... you have a dozen photos of your 10 plow truck fleet worth 300k?


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## Ramairfreak98ss

mullis56;1055037 said:


> http://www.transfieldservices.com/p...es_awarded_major_contract_by_global_retailer/
> 
> Looks like they just maintained what they had last season as on July 26, 2010!


if their data is true.. 100 million "their maximum" from walmart to service 4,000 stores, comes to only $25k per store per season? Are these all not sites with snow? And is that amount for landscape maint, parking lot maint AND snow ? :laughing:


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## dumbyankee

Stop and think: A national company takes the contracts on 3000 retail lots. They plan to use their own equipment on a 1/4 of the lots, (750) lets say they would provide $75,000 in equipment, right now we are at 56 and 1/4 million not to mention the 1500 employees they would have to hire. Then include comp., benifits over time etc. Then add in regional directors (more employees) and so on. Now on a lease op. for the equipment depending on the lease your still looking at millions, but to find train and (instill) the desire to get up at 2:00 am to remove snow for 1500 employees at $12.00 hr which will be about top pay. NOT. The point I am getting at, as a company you are only as good as the people who work for you. Let them eat up all the big contracts, so what, if they cant find the people and equipment to do it them selfs, then they are nothing. OOOOOOO scared of the big bad wolf. we killed off all the wolfs here once just to bring them back. Dont work for them, and most of all dont rely on them as your bread and butter. Adjust your business plan with out them. Lets see whos back is against the wall. They come and they go, we are the ones who are still here.


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## ColumbiaLand

dumbyankee;1055358 said:


> Stop and think: A national company takes the contracts on 3000 retail lots. They plan to use their own equipment on a 1/4 of the lots, (750) lets say they would provide $75,000 in equipment, right now we are at 56 and 1/4 million not to mention the 1500 employees they would have to hire. Then include comp., benifits over time etc. Then add in regional directors (more employees) and so on. Now on a lease op. for the equipment depending on the lease your still looking at millions, but to find train and (instill) the desire to get up at 2:00 am to remove snow for 1500 employees at $12.00 hr which will be about top pay. NOT. The point I am getting at, as a company you are only as good as the people who work for you. Let them eat up all the big contracts, so what, if they cant find the people and equipment to do it them selfs, then they are nothing. OOOOOOO scared of the big bad wolf. we killed off all the wolfs here once just to bring them back. Dont work for them, and most of all dont rely on them as your bread and butter. Adjust your business plan with out them. Lets see whos back is against the wall. They come and they go, we are the ones who are still here.


Agree with you on that one. They do all come and go and were still here.:waving:


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## Matson Snow

dumbyankee;1055358 said:


> Stop and think: A national company takes the contracts on 3000 retail lots. They plan to use their own equipment on a 1/4 of the lots, (750) lets say they would provide $75,000 in equipment, right now we are at 56 and 1/4 million not to mention the 1500 employees they would have to hire. Then include comp., benifits over time etc. Then add in regional directors (more employees) and so on. Now on a lease op. for the equipment depending on the lease your still looking at millions, but to find train and (instill) the desire to get up at 2:00 am to remove snow for 1500 employees at $12.00 hr which will be about top pay. NOT. The point I am getting at, as a company you are only as good as the people who work for you. Let them eat up all the big contracts, so what, if they cant find the people and equipment to do it them selfs, then they are nothing. OOOOOOO scared of the big bad wolf. we killed off all the wolfs here once just to bring them back. Dont work for them, and most of all dont rely on them as your bread and butter. Adjust your business plan with out them. Lets see whos back is against the wall. They come and they go, we are the ones who are still here.


National Management Companys Do Not Own a single piece of equipment...They Sub it all out to folks on this site...They are not in the Business of Snow Removal....They are in the Business of Managing these Propertys...They have No desire to push Snow...They have a desire to make money off of you and me pushing the snow for them....


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## Kramer

Ramairfreak98ss;1055285 said:


> if their data is true.. 100 million "their maximum" from walmart to service 4,000 stores, comes to only $25k per store per season? Are these all not sites with snow? And is that amount for landscape maint, parking lot maint AND snow ? :laughing:


Actually they break it down a little saying 35% of the contract (35% of between 85 and 100 million total) is snow removal. They do not say snow removal from how many of the locations, so its impossible to calculate what the per store snow amount is. Their contract is for snow, lawncare sweeping etc. There are probably a lot of stores with no snow at all. Theres likely a wide range of costs per store depending on region.

If you look at some of the posts on plowsite, you can probably get a better idea from what they owe people. If people on here are getting $20k per store per season for example, I doubt USM is billing wallyworld $25K.

I'm pretty sure its regional too. They probably did some homework to determine regional markets. They can't be charging more that a local would have before so if you know what people got privately then theres a chance your close to what they're billing. Plowsite is probably a better data set then an aggregated press release report.


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## Kramer

dumbyankee;1055358 said:


> Stop and think: A national company takes the contracts on 3000 retail lots. They plan to use their own equipment on a 1/4 of the lots, (750) lets say they would provide $75,000 in equipment, right now we are at 56 and 1/4 million not to mention the 1500 employees they would have to hire. Then include comp., benifits over time etc. Then add in regional directors (more employees) and so on. Now on a lease op. for the equipment depending on the lease your still looking at millions, but to find train and (instill) the desire to get up at 2:00 am to remove snow for 1500 employees at $12.00 hr which will be about top pay. NOT. The point I am getting at, as a company you are only as good as the people who work for you. Let them eat up all the big contracts, so what, if they cant find the people and equipment to do it them selfs, then they are nothing. OOOOOOO scared of the big bad wolf. we killed off all the wolfs here once just to bring them back. *Dont work for them, and most of all dont rely on them as your bread and butter. Adjust your business plan with out them. Lets see whos back is against the wall.* They come and they go, we are the ones who are still here.


This is exactly the point summarized right there. You have control now of whether to work for them or not.

There are 2 distinct ways they fail:

1/ not enough subs sign up with them and they can't service the contracts

2/ enough people sign up but they screw enough out of their pay and they ultimately get a bad enough name that they start to lose contracts.

This goes for lawncare as well, except nobody will stop shopping at walmart if the grass is an inch too long.

If they can secure the contracts and then cannot get enough people to service them, then their backs are against the wall. If they are serious then they would try to subsidize the business by using their own equipment. I think this would be a last bid effort to maintain the business though.

I agree with the financial layout you have too---it doesn't make a lot of sense to invest in equipment if you already have subs showing up and tasking a cut rate. The tipping point is whether or not they can find enough people and how bad the investors want to keep going. Don't forget that on top of it all, the nationals are competing with each other. They probably look at the local guy as a secondary competitor.

In the end, its all about money. They have a board of directors and probably some investors who expect a certain return. They have goals and if they fall short they will do whatever necessary to try and make those goals. Investors hate to subsidize operations...they want a fat profit. If they don't get it they try and merge with others to build a bigger portfolio or they try and dump it.

A guy I used to work for once said "when a company gets to about a $50 million revenue area, its hard to kill it". He was right. They don't usually just walk away from that. So from a local plow guys perspective, buying their own equipment makes no sense. When a guy pitches the board about merging with Komatsu or whoever on equipment to make a projected $250 million next year, trust me they will consider it. When companies get large it doesn't always make sense. Investors are nothing more than gamblers. Show them a good presentation and they get the cash somewhere. Its a different game than strapping the western on the front of your truck and making $500 in a storm.

Think about it... if USM is one of several nationals, and then there are more regional players, how much total money is out there in the lawncare/snow game? If you think that the board on any one of the nationals isn't looking at that then think again.


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## dumbyankee

Another good point I forgot about: INVESTORS they are only in it for $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. They dont care if a lot is plowed, grass cut or the trash is removed. Investors will not stay if they are loosing money. I cant see how a National Company with a bad rep. will stay afloat. More so in this market. You can bid these jobs but change the contract so its more in your favor, plus hike your rates when bidding a Management job. You all think they have one over on you. They dont. File a class action suit and start tying them up in court. Im sure there is a lawer out there that will pick up all your cases. Management companies need you more than you need them.


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## lilweeds

This tread seems like a waste now. Guys try it, if you have luck great! Me I will not work for USM.


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## ajslands

if they dont pay, then knock on their door and get your money! you sure as hell aren't going to get it by complaing about it on a online forum!


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## ff610

ajslands;1055445 said:


> if they dont pay, then knock on their door and get your money! you sure as hell aren't going to get it by complaing about it on a online forum!


Well said!


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## dumbyankee

True we have beat this one right to death. The point I was trying and belive I did get across was the big nationals are not so big, and for the most part are not worth working for. For those who decide to work for them then good luck, For the rest of us with a little more business experience we will not work for them. I can say I have not seen one person plead a case for this national company. More than likley they are too busy spending the money they should have paid out to the contractors who earned it. Leaving you sitting here P-A-M about non payment. Sooooo who can we crap on now?


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## dayexco

i have one unanswered question. and maybe fran from USM could answer it for me please...when we as subs carry insurance, a claim is turned in, our insurance carrier PAYS the claim....how can you and liberty mutual justify backcharging your subs....$4500 to "handle" the claim? would you agree, or disagree this is a little exorbitant?


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## dumbyankee

I can answer this one: A little back ground on me. I was a medi working a truck here in the norteast. Now for all of you who do snow removal for major shoping centers. If i was to slip and fall where do you think I would want to do it? At a small bread and milk store or at wallyworld? I want to slip and fall at the place with deep pockets. Wallyworld. Most of the slips and falls were one of three things, a person who slip and fell, rare but it dose happen. A person who is doing a insurance scam, or the person who is looking for a pain med fix. As far as the cost by the time you add up the lawers time, med records fees, and adminstration costs that number is about right. As a snow removal professional, you must have a clause in your contract to cover you as the snow falls to an agreeable time period after the storm ends. You should not be held liable for an action that another person makes unless you are truly at default.


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## dayexco

no, you didn't answer it, because apparently you didn't read my post. it makes no difference where the person fell....they fell, had a claim, my insurance company PAID for the loss...that's a done deal...i'll repeat this one more time so you maybe can get the gist of it...USM, deducted $4500 out of my seasonal contract for THIS fall....AFTER my insurance company paid for the loss....to cover "expenses" handling the claim. understand that?


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## dumbyankee

Read your contract with USM. I am sure they covered their a**. There is somthing you are missing. FINE PRINT. If its not there send them to collections, or better yet bill the store for the money plus.


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## dayexco

i foolishly signed a contract with USM without my atty's review...know this, any of you that sign "their" contract....per their contract....any disputes you have with them, plan on a vacation to pennsylvania to meet with a board of arbitration....hand selected by USM i'm sure....soooooooooo...you get the travel expense to pennsylvania...the expense of hiring a pennsylvania attorney...and the screwing you've only experienced with a 25 cent crack ho....


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## jomama45

dumbyankee;1055623 said:


> I can answer this one: A little back ground on me. I was a medi working a truck here in the norteast. Now for all of you who do snow removal for major shoping centers. If i was to slip and fall where do you think I would want to do it? At a small bread and milk store or at wallyworld? I want to slip and fall at the place with deep pockets. Wallyworld. Most of the slips and falls were one of three things, a person who slip and fell, rare but it dose happen. A person who is doing a insurance scam, or the person who is looking for a pain med fix. As far as the cost by the time you add up the lawers time, med records fees, and adminstration costs that number is about right. As a snow removal professional, you must have a clause in your contract to cover you as the snow falls to an agreeable time period after the storm ends. You should not be held liable for an action that another person makes unless you are truly at default.





dumbyankee;1055683 said:


> Read your contract with USM. I am sure they covered their a**. There is somthing you are missing. FINE PRINT. If its not there send them to collections, or better yet bill the store for the money plus.


Honestly, you don't seem to have the any answer to the question posed IMO either. These two posts are completly contradictory of each other................


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## dumbyankee

Sorry I guess I cant answer your question. The only people who can will be USM. If they cant answer they are in violation of their own contract.


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## Westhardt Corp.

I keep seeing this "contract" word being mentioned....


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## buckwheat_la

What i don't understand is why more of the contractors that are having troubles aren't forming groups, and banding together?


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## buckwheat_la

I also don't understand why i keep seeing the USM dude online, yet no responses


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## Westhardt Corp.

Observation, of course. You've got to learn your audience.


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## tls22

What i dont understand is why people continue to do work for these people and continue to make the same thread how they are not paid or w/e. I did not read the whole thread but prob can guess what the point of it is...(every year one pops up) Plus why work this way? A bunch of people getting a piece of the pie and no way it getting in touch with holy grail when things go wrong.....Just dress nice and bid on lots....same way it was done when gv was 25, 50 years ago.


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## Kramer

tls22;1055924 said:


> What i dont understand is why people continue to do work for these people and continue to make the same thread how they are not paid or w/e. I did not read the whole thread but prob can guess what the point of it is...(every year one pops up) Plus why work this way? A bunch of people getting a piece of the pie and no way it getting in touch with holy grail when things go wrong.....Just dress nice and bid on lots....same way it was done when gv was 25, 50 years ago.


cmon tls22---you know thats not true--- gv never dressed nice....his only striped suit has a number on the back.


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## Westhardt Corp.

tls22;1055924 said:


> What i dont understand is why people continue to do work for these people and continue to make the same thread how they are not paid or w/e. I did not read the whole thread but prob can guess what the point of it is...(every year one pops up) Plus why work this way? A bunch of people getting a piece of the pie and no way it getting in touch with holy grail when things go wrong.....Just dress nice and bid on lots....same way it was done when gv was 25, 50 years ago.


It's most likely the allure of, well...._*work*_. Lots of contractors are mesmerized by the thought of doing large properties, and the numbers tend to "wow" them the first year or so--until they see first hand what it actually _costs_ them to do said large properties.

Keep in mind, most nationals seek out bids from as many contractors as they can get in touch with, and I'd bet that a lot of them are not "smart" contractors. Not an insult, rather they simply just don't know any better _yet._

It's akin to many retail hiring theories, take McDonald's for example. For many years, they knew they'd have to train new employees continuously--because last year's (or month's, LOL) new employees would have moved on by then. They would have a steady stream of new hires to train...much like national management companies have with snow removal vendors, except in this case the word "train" would be used in a _much_ different context.

:laughing:


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## tls22

Kramer;1055932 said:


> cmon tls22---you know thats not true--- gv never dressed nice....his only striped suit has a number on the back.


lol....He use to do 70's porn....now he just cuts grass and plows snow ussmileyflag



Westhardt Corp.;1055985 said:


> It's most likely the allure of, well...._*work*_. Lots of contractors are mesmerized by the thought of doing large properties, and the numbers tend to "wow" them the first year or so--until they see first hand what it actually _costs_ them to do said large properties.
> 
> Keep in mind, most nationals seek out bids from as many contractors as they can get in touch with, and I'd bet that a lot of them are not "smart" contractors. Not an insult, rather they simply just don't know any better _yet._
> 
> It's akin to many retail hiring theories, take McDonald's for example. For many years, they knew they'd have to train new employees continuously--because last year's (or month's, LOL) new employees would have moved on by then. They would have a steady stream of new hires to train...much like national management companies have with snow removal vendors, except in this case the word "train" would be used in a _much_ different context.
> 
> :laughing:


lol...That does make sense....but i was always taught by my father its how much money you put in ur wallet, then how many big accounts you have. Im sure some guys on the site are makin more plowing there 3 good accounts...then another guys 4 huge walmarts.
Like you said each and every year a new set will want to tackle old man winter. We had close to 80 inches of snow here last winter, i cant wait to see how many guys throw a piece of iron on he front of there trucks. Have a safe and profitable winter


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## ff610

Probably a ton! then we can buy it all cheap when their business flops! happens every few years around here!,.


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## dayexco

i wish the mods would make this a sticky.....when dealing with USM...don't be an idiot like me, and sign THEIR contract without an attorney's reviewal....do not sucker into giving them the 5% seasonal contract "rebate"...they keep it, it's not going back to the end user....make them sign a waiver and they accept full responsibility for slip and falls and give you a contract that holds you harmless in case it happens. insist THEY dictate to you, per occurance....how much salt/deicer to apply, and when to apply it...and make sure you're paid by the pound. after you apply the amount requested by them, have the facility manager sign off EACH time the service was performed...i know that if you have a "hold harmless"...you should be safe...but with them, i'm not quite so sure. you see the USM guy was wanting to talk until the legal dept got ahold of him? i'm wondering if he still has a job?


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## buckwheat_la

i doubt he has lost his job, he has been online here quite a bit, but he has yet to say anything more on this thread?!?!


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## dumbyankee

Just a question, How many of you keep a plow report that is filled out as soon as you complete snow removal services on your commercial accounts? The reason I am asking, All of my town roads I service, I do a quick form (check boxes) of what I did how much snow was on the road, how much material I put out etc. What I did find out, by doing some simple quick paper work in the truck can get you out of hot water from time to time. If you can prove that you have provided the service requested, in a timely fashion, you can prove fault on a person who is making a claim that they fell, got into an mva or any other claim. Having smooth soled shoes in a snow storm is the same as driving with bald tires. If you provided the service, and can prove it, done every thing that you can to prevent the occurance then tough crap for the management company, walmart or what ever account you are doing. Im quite sure most every one on this thread provides a top level snow removal service, the thing I see some of you are not quite so good at the business part of the job.


----------



## jomama45

dumbyankee;1056805 said:


> Just a question, How many of you keep a plow report that is filled out as soon as you complete snow removal services on your commercial accounts? The reason I am asking, All of my town roads I service, I do a quick form (check boxes) of what I did how much snow was on the road, how much material I put out etc. What I did find out, by doing some simple quick paper work in the truck can get you out of hot water from time to time. If you can prove that you have provided the service requested, in a timely fashion, you can prove fault on a person who is making a claim that they fell, got into an mva or any other claim. Having smooth soled shoes in a snow storm is the same as driving with bald tires. If you provided the service, and can prove it, done every thing that you can to prevent the occurance then tough crap for the management company, walmart or what ever account you are doing. Im quite sure most every one on this thread provides a top level snow removal service, *the thing I see some of you are not quite so good at the business part of the job*.


I'd say you're taking a big "leap" here and making some rather naive assumptions.

From reading about this mngmnt. co. here, as well as many others, your "quick forms" wouldn't get you paid from USM, much less released of any liability. If you read deeper into this subject, you'd realize most contractors that have worked for them complain about "endless paperwork and too much time on the phon ewith USM during the storm".

BTW, carrying a digital camera with a date stamp isn't a bad idea either............


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## dayexco

buckwheat_la;1055805 said:


> What i don't understand is why more of the contractors that are having troubles aren't forming groups, and banding together?


that's my thoughts exactly. please PM me if any of you think we need to pursue this further as a group. especially those of you who had money deducted from your seasonal contracts.


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## SpankyVonShponk

Thank you for all the replies


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## Matson Snow

dumbyankee;1056805 said:


> Just a question, How many of you keep a plow report that is filled out as soon as you complete snow removal services on your commercial accounts? The reason I am asking, All of my town roads I service, I do a quick form (check boxes) of what I did how much snow was on the road, how much material I put out etc. What I did find out, by doing some simple quick paper work in the truck can get you out of hot water from time to time. If you can prove that you have provided the service requested, in a timely fashion, you can prove fault on a person who is making a claim that they fell, got into an mva or any other claim. Having smooth soled shoes in a snow storm is the same as driving with bald tires. If you provided the service, and can prove it, done every thing that you can to prevent the occurance then tough crap for the management company, walmart or what ever account you are doing. provides a Im quite sure most every one on this thropead t level snow removal service the thing I see some of you are not quite so good at the business part of the job.
> 
> Please dont come on here with 17 posts and start calling people out....Earn some respect on here before you do that....Their are some Top Notch people on this Thread and in this forum...Take the time to find out about them before you start expounding your wisdom on us....


----------



## tman3007

First of all...I mean no disrespect at all towards anybody or their company regarding receivables through USM (or lack there of). I would be absolutely bitter and ready to fight if they witheld money from me too. But I read through the USM contract for snow a year ago and I couldn't even count on both hands how many ways they could withold money from the contractor. For example (discrepancies of snowfall amount per event, not calling in to USM using their automated system on time, slip and falls, smaller than average seasonal snowfall) blah blah blah. 

I understand the reasons people still decided to work for them ie...the economy, the allure of big box accounts, gotta feed the family, this is the way all big accounts are heading, and so on and so on. 

However, the contract is crafted in a way which in my humble opinion undermines the relationship between a contractor and the account they are providing service for. I guess what I'm getting at is this...we all know that the contract was heavily slighted towards USM and definitely not in favor AT ALL towards us, the contractors. Why would someone roll the dice and sign on the dotted line with so much at stake. I just found out this past week that our location was switching over to USM after 3 years of "incident free" service. I told my manager respectfully that I wasn't going to work for USM because of everything I've read on here. He definitely understood why. He was a great manager over the years and never complained once! We are still finishing out other services such as the lawn and sweeping but it is all coming to an end this year or beginning of next quarter.

Joining together sounds good in theory but I just don't see where your efforts will get you. I am certainly not a lawyer but pursuing a class action suit will be expensive and time consuming. Anyways, the contracts you signed will work against you in your pursuits I believe. I truly hope that you all can receive your money that is owed to you!!! 

We all know how much we sacrifice being snow removal providers. Holidays, family time, horrible hours, being unable to schedule vacation time and the list goes on. The one that ticked me off the most was missing the Superbowl this past year! Nobody loves football more than me and having to leave friends and family to go push snow almost killed me!!! 

Best of luck to you all in receiving what is rightfully yours.

Cheers, Todd


----------



## Matson Snow

tman3007;1056886 said:


> First of all...I mean no disrespect at all towards anybody or their company regarding receivables through USM (or lack there of). I would be absolutely bitter and ready to fight if they witheld money from me too. But I read through the USM contract for snow a year ago and I couldn't even count on both hands how many ways they could withold money from the contractor. For example (discrepancies of snowfall amount per event, not calling in to USM using their automated system on time, slip and falls, smaller than average seasonal snowfall) blah blah blah.
> 
> I understand the reasons people still decided to work for them ie...the economy, the allure of big box accounts, gotta feed the family, this is the way all big accounts are heading, and so on and so on.
> 
> However, the contract is crafted in a way which in my humble opinion undermines the relationship between a contractor and the account they are providing service for. I guess what I'm getting at is this...we all know that the contract was heavily slighted towards USM and definitely not in favor AT ALL towards us, the contractors. Why would someone roll the dice and sign on the dotted line with so much at stake. I just found out this past week that our location was switching over to USM after 3 years of "incident free" service. I told my manager respectfully that I wasn't going to work for USM because of everything I've read on here. He definitely understood why. He was a great manager over the years and never complained once! We are still finishing out other services such as the lawn and sweeping but it is all coming to an end this year or beginning of next quarter.
> 
> Joining together sounds good in theory but I just don't see where your efforts will get you. I am certainly not a lawyer but pursuing a class action suit will be expensive and time consuming. Anyways, the contracts you signed will work against you in your pursuits I believe. I truly hope that you all can receive your money that is owed to you!!!
> 
> We all know how much we sacrifice being snow removal providers. Holidays, family time, horrible hours, being unable to schedule vacation time and the list goes on. The one that ticked me off the most was missing the Superbowl this past year! Nobody loves football more than me and having to leave friends and family to go push snow almost killed me!!!
> 
> Best of luck to you all in receiving what is rightfully yours.
> 
> Cheers, Todd


Todd...I think the best one i found in the USM contract was the 10% charge to expedite payment to the contractor....They were gonna charge 10% to pay you the Money they owe you...


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## Kodiakguy

Can someone please PM me a copy of the USM Contract?
Thanks.


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## Matson Snow

Kodiakguy;1056913 said:


> Can someone please PM me a copy of the USM Contract?
> Thanks.


Its about 20 pages or so....Go to the USM website and inquire about becoming a contractor and they will email you an info packet......


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## Kodiakguy

Thanks for the info


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## Mick76

pm me ur email and i'll forward you the rediclous contract sunday. Personally I think ur crazy if u sign it but too each his own.


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## Kodiakguy

Im not going to work with them. I just want to read the contract. Oh, and my partners brother in law is a corporate attorney, I want to get his take on it. Ill pm you my address.


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## lawn king

Kodiakguy;1056913 said:


> Can someone please PM me a copy of the USM Contract?
> Thanks.


If you sign on with usm, let me know. I have a bridge for sale in new york i would like to sell you!:laughing:


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## Matson Snow

Kodiakguy;1056949 said:


> Im not going to work with them. I just want to read the contract. Oh, and my partners brother in law is a corporate attorney, I want to get his take on it. Ill pm you my address.


I will sum it up for you...The Corporate attorney will say DONT sign it.....


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## ff610

lawn king;1056951 said:


> If you sign on with usm, let me know. I have a bridge for sale in new york i would like to sell you!:laughing:


How much for the bridge? I just sold one and looking to get another one. Hopefully its a big one.....


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## dumbyankee

Hey, sorry about calling people out. But it worked, I had to light a fire under peoples a** to get some fresh meat in here. Matson sumed it up the best. Its your business practices. Thank you. As far as a digital camera, they work great. All it proves is you took a picture. With out backing it up with some type of simple plow report you are leaving your self open to litigation. As business people we manage lots of different things, Most of all liability. You are a business person first. An operator second. Which means paper work. Most not all of the box stores have security cameras as well. They know when you are there and when you are not, consider them as Santa Clause, you know good and bad little boys and girls. The difference is santa will not bring you to court or hold money. If a management company holds money, and you can not prove your case they will not pay you. Put yourself into a position of power by having a slam dunk paper trail, which its not a bad idea of taking pictures and adding them to the file. The edge of a piece of paper is the most dangerous wepon in the United States and what you put on it. Paper has started and ended world wars, has bought every thing you own including a bridge in New York, By the way I got out of the bridge market a few years ago its too narrow. Any one want to buy some prime real estate in Florida or New Mexico? Make a reasonable offer.


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## Mick76

Kodiak,
Contract sent.......Make sure you print it all up, Its good bathroom reading material.......


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## dayexco

dumbyankee;1057040 said:


> Hey, sorry about calling people out. But it worked, I had to light a fire under peoples a** to get some fresh meat in here. Matson sumed it up the best. Its your business practices. Thank you. As far as a digital camera, they work great. *All it proves is you took a picture. *With out backing it up with some type of simple plow report you are leaving your self open to litigation. As business people we manage lots of different things, Most of all liability. You are a business person first. An operator second. Which means paper work. Most not all of the box stores have security cameras as well. They know when you are there and when you are not, consider them as Santa Clause, you know good and bad little boys and girls. The difference is santa will not bring you to court or hold money. If a management company holds money, and you can not prove your case they will not pay you. Put yourself into a position of power by having a slam dunk paper trail, which its not a bad idea of taking pictures and adding them to the file. The edge of a piece of paper is the most dangerous wepon in the United States and what you put on it. Paper has started and ended world wars, has bought every thing you own including a bridge in New York, By the way I got out of the bridge market a few years ago its too narrow. Any one want to buy some prime real estate in Florida or New Mexico? Make a reasonable offer.


i take it you've never been in a court room? a time stamped photograph carries a lot of weight. your push log alone would be bunched up and used for butt wipe by that philadelphia attorney, unless accompanied by some notarial documentation such as a dated newspaper clipping describing the weather, or...a sworn, notarized statement by a meteorologist, or having him as an expert witness in the court room for that matter. but we know, we know....YOU'RE the businessman, and now a realtor.


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## Matson Snow

Mick76;1057044 said:


> Kodiak,
> Contract sent.......Make sure you print it all up,* Its good bathroom reading material.......*




In case you run out of Toilet Paper.......


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## Kodiakguy

Thanks for the copy.

As I stated before: I dont want to work for them, just wanted to read the contract.

I just finished reading the contract, holy*&*&$^%$^%#%#$&^ ((&*&%&^$!!!! :laughing:
I would NEVER sign that thing!!! I find it hard to believe they are even in business, 5% rapid payment!?!?!? 4% discounted payment if they pay you over 10 grand!?!? Assume all liability and defend them and their customer at your expense! wow.

Thankfully I didn't wast the printers time or ink printing it.

Fact of the matter is I wanted to see and read the contract so I have a better understanding as to why so many people are upset with USM. Now I understand better. They just dont seem to have a grasp on how to treat people. 

We NEVER treat our subs like that. We ALWAYS pay them and on time. They have families and mouths to feed, if things were that tight, we would give them whatever we could, we pay them first, then ourselves.


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## ajslands

Mick76;1057044 said:


> Kodiak,
> Contract sent.......Make sure you print it all up, Its good bathroom reading material.......


I want one too!


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## Matson Snow

Kodiakguy;1057091 said:


> Thanks for the copy.
> 
> As I stated before: I dont want to work for them, just wanted to read the contract.
> 
> I just finished reading the contract, holy*&*&$^%$^%#%#$&^ ((&*&%&^$!!!! :laughing:
> I would NEVER sign that thing!!! I find i*t hard to believe they are even in business, 5% rapid payment!?!?!? 4% discounted payment if they pay you over 10 grand!?!? *Assume all liability and defend them and their customer at your expense! wow.
> 
> Thankfully I didn't wast the printers time or ink printing it.
> 
> Fact of the matter is I wanted to see and read the contract so I have a better understanding as to why so many people are upset with USM. Now I understand better. They just dont seem to have a grasp on how to treat people.
> 
> We NEVER treat our subs like that. We ALWAYS pay them and on time. They have families and mouths to feed, if things were that tight, we would give them whatever we could, we pay them first, then ourselves.


I think they have Lowerd that.....It used to be 10% and 6%........Glad you enjoyed the reading.....


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## Kodiakguy

A thought on documentation. Detailed logs and photos are good, but dated and printed weather warnings and reports from the NWS are better. Fortunatly we have courts in my area with common sence.


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## kingc

*USM and Walmart*

I Became a member of Plowsite to be able to communicate with fellow contractors. As we had a couple of Walmarts in our area we found the info on your site very valuable to our decision making process last season and managed to get free and clear of any dealings with USM. The contractor who replaced us has still not gotten paid by USM. I don't see why you are deleteing posts about USM because the free exchange of information is what your site is all about or is it? Please do not delete any more posts about USM as they are very valuable to your members. In Response to this post We Got OUT when USM got involved, and that was a very profitable contract for us in the past. Good luck and watch your behind if you deal with USM.


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## buckwheat_la

kingc;1057127 said:


> I Became a member of Plowsite to be able to communicate with fellow contractors. As we had a couple of Walmarts in our area we found the info on your site very valuable to our decision making process last season and managed to get free and clear of any dealings with USM. The contractor who replaced us has still not gotten paid by USM. I don't see why you are deleteing posts about USM because the free exchange of information is what your site is all about or is it? Please do not delete any more posts about USM as they are very valuable to your members. In Response to this post We Got OUT when USM got involved, and that was a very profitable contract for us in the past. Good luck and watch your behind if you deal with USM.


of course we respect the moderators on what they do and don't allow, the best you can do is to be polite, and carefull of your language, keep posts on topic, and they USUALLY!!! don't erase too many posts


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## buckwheat_la

and you people wonder why USM threads get deleted, if you wish to squable, why not start a thread in the other topics under "why dayexco and dumbyankee don't like each other"


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## dayexco

you all are right, and i apologize for my performance here. dumbyankee and i should have taken our bantering to PM. again, i apologize.


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## dayexco

anyway....by signing the USM contract....you waive all your rights locally to sue them in local small claims, or if over $10k....in your local jurisdiction. you will go to pennsylvania, and meet with a USM arbitration board. good luck with this one!! should you have a slip and fall, even if your insurance company has paid the claim...in my experience anyway...they will deduct from your seasonal contract whatever THEY deem proper to handle the paperwork for the claim....in my particular case, it was $4500. did i ever get an itemized listing of their actual costs to justify this deduction? no. have you ever been bent over a table naked, handcuffed, have somebody wire brush your ass, then pour turpentine on it? can you guess why i'm irritated?


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## jomama45

dayexco;1057629 said:


> anyway....by signing the USM contract....you waive all your rights locally to sue them in local small claims, or if over $10k....in your local jurisdiction. you will go to pennsylvania, and meet with a USM arbitration board. good luck with this one!! should you have a slip and fall, even if your insurance company has paid the claim...in my experience anyway...they will deduct from your seasonal contract whatever THEY deem proper to handle the paperwork for the claim....in my particular case, it was $4500. did i ever get an itemized listing of their actual costs to justify this deduction? no. *have you ever been bent over a table naked, handcuffed, have somebody wire brush your ass, then pour turpentine on it? can you guess why i'm irritated*?


OH MY LORD!!! 

Maye that could be USM's new mission statement or something..... :laughing:

Seriously Day, from reading your posts here, as well as the other const. forum, I have no reason to doubt your experience, professionalism, background, and especially, honesty.

I'd personally like to thank you for posting your ACTUAL experience with this company, rather than the typical second/third hand experiences found here. I realize you have very little to gain from doing so, as the personal damage is done to you, but to warn future businesses, that are willing to do a little homework, of what to watch out for. It would be far easier for you to give up after the first couple of your posts got deleted.


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## Westhardt Corp.

Food for thought--if you want to see what a contract is _really _made of--read it backwards, end to beginning. It is very telling, because many times the document is drafted in anticipation of a normal attention span, which will have elapsed by the time you get to the _really_ neat little details.

Try it sometime...


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## northernsweeper

First let me say, Yes I signed a contract with USM for the past five years doing a local chain. No, I didn't really understand half of what the contract said. I figured as long as they paid, and I did what was required, all would be good. And basically it was. They were late ( a lot) on payments, and yes the never ending phone calls were annoying, calling me to provide service even when no one at the store requested it, and it was bare blacktop. But the pay was decent and my costs were kept low. I salted with a tailgate spreader, (60 bags) per salting, and had a local contractor with loader do my stacking when required.
You can all tell me how stupid I was. Thats fine, but things are different for everyone and I'll do what I can to keep my house and try to get a head. I just wanted to say that I have filed a wage complaint with the pennsylvania attorney generals office. Those of you who are owed monies from this company may want to do the same. I don't know if it will do any good...but its something. You can find the attorney generals site on the web. Good luck to all of you who are owed money. Thanks to all who offer support. Hope you all have a great upcoming season!!


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## buckwheat_la

pointing out AGAIN!!! (mainly because i am bored) it has been many weeks, still no comments back from the USM rep. I see other reps for other companies on here, but I think this comes down to additude and accountability. USM wishes to not be accountable for any of its actions (hence the nasty one sided contract).


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## ajslands

northernsweeper;1057911 said:


> First let me say, Yes I signed a contract with USM for the past five years doing a local chain. No, I didn't really understand half of what the contract said. I figured as long as they paid, and I did what was required, all would be good. And basically it was. They were late ( a lot) on payments, and yes the never ending phone calls were annoying, calling me to provide service even when no one at the store requested it, and it was bare blacktop. But the pay was decent and my costs were kept low. I salted with a tailgate spreader, (60 bags) per salting, and had a local contractor with loader do my stacking when required.
> You can all tell me how stupid I was. Thats fine, but things are different for everyone and I'll do what I can to keep my house and try to get a head. I just wanted to say that I have filed a wage complaint with the pennsylvania attorney generals office. Those of you who are owed monies from this company may want to do the same. I don't know if it will do any good...but its something. You can find the attorney generals site on the web. Good luck to all of you who are owed money. Thanks to all who offer support. Hope you all have a great upcoming season!!


SIMA has a workshop called beyond the bid which will yeah you all the legal snow and ice terms


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## dumbyankee

Out of 9 pages of going back and forth with various comments and solutions to the problem, The one thing I carry away from this, USM is not a company to work for. I hope we all have a safe and profitable up comming season.


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## ServiceOnSite

I cant belive i just read the whole thing UGH................................. i have nothing to add to this thread lol good night and good luck to all this season.


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## jlouki01

I got their contract last year and went through it pretty well. 

The bottom line is we all know it is well drafted to protect them only. Not us in any way. If nobody signs it and works for them they can go out of business and we don't have to worry about it. 

I was offered to take on a few places for them but I refused to sign their contract. 

I won't give up my right to sue the crap out of you if you don't pay me. They have a little blurb in there about you not being able to sue them if they don't pay AND you cannot sue their customer for not paying. 

I will not take responsibility for someone falling and getting hurt because the customer decided to be cheap and skimp on services. 

Paying late.. I honestly don't really have any commercial customers that pay on time so I'm pretty used to that part 

By the looks of it this seems to be a company accepting no risk shoving it off on us then collecting all the reward at the end of the day. If you are lucky they might share some of it with you.. a very small percentage.. of which will be late! and you will have to send 1000 pictures and documents and survive 2000 phone calls. 

When is it going to start snowing again?


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## FCS Services

USM;1054747 said:


> Everyone please be patient I had to remove the post for now. I will be checking in and if anyone would like to contact me please feel free. Oh a BTW it is MR. Fran Taylor.
> 
> Fran Taylor
> USM


I would like to talk with you........ about to start working with USM...... maybe!!!


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## Westhardt Corp.

Holy resurrected thread!


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## buckwheat_la

FCS Services;1231352 said:


> I would like to talk with you........ about to start working with USM...... maybe!!!


Did u read the thread through?!?! He hasn't been back here since he promised to be back with some answers/comments about USM 's legal take on some contractors concerns "in a couple of weeks"


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## FCS Services

Just read it.................... crazy...................!!!!


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## milkie62

I think I will remain a small time operator with my 70 or so residentials and keep ALL the monies and manage it myself..Maybe I can backcharge myself so my wife does not get all the checks mailed in.I will even use some of USM's clauses that way I can make a little kitty for myself.If nobody will sub for USM they will start losing. Nuf said......


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## Mdirrigation

If you get a request for service from them , its rather simple , get the paperwork , hop in your truck and take it to your competition in the area and give it to them , tell them you are too busy to take on any more . When the competition gets stiffed , and cant cover their bills , more work for you .


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## Greeneverywhere

Great idea! They called me many years back wanting a price to do a Best Buy. If you read through the contract they expected the place to look like Disney World, but were offering something like 5k for the whole year- grounds AND snow. They have had several different contractor over the past 10 years and it always looks horrible. This years contractor left a pile of mulch in the parking lot for the entire season. Wonder if the contractor bailed?


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## greyst1

SIMASTAFF;1054449 said:


> Hi all,
> This is Brian with SIMA, I'd like to weigh in and give you our perspective. First, I am seeing some information in the posts in this thread that are inaccurate related to our session at the show, and I just want all of you to be cautious about what you post here (especially if you weren't there), as it is a very public forum and false statements aren't good for plowsite.com. Second, I'll be honest, I really don't appreciate one of our panelists being singled-out and bashed, no matter how you feel about the company he works for---he stood up in the front of a tough room and I think he deserves credit and recognition, no more or less than the other panelists who stood up there with me in the panel. All of the panelists during this session showed courage, imagine the anger that is shared on this site all the time, they walked into that session knowing they were going to be under some fire...these guys faced it, and we all spent about 5 hours preparing together for weeks prior to the event. I helped moderate the session and I knew how challenging it would be; but we knew we had to do it anyway, because as an industry we have to do more than just vent in order to move forward. I know there are folks out there who agree with this statement!
> 
> We had some great information for the panel, including some shared by Sean that laid out the perspective of the global view of the facilities/property management industry...we also had some really great tips and discussion points about contracts/bidding/working with national management companies; however, there were several people in the room who more wanted to try to prove a point about how they felt about national companies-at times it felt like more of a political environment with folks trying to show how strongly they felt about the issue and how they could get their lumps in, instead of a back and forth dialogue about how we can resolve the issues out there. I understand this and I think we gave these folks a public venue to let out some of their frustrations, but it was unfortunate because we had a lot of good information to share that we didn't get to because of some of the anger.
> 
> SIMA is making a concerted, long-term effort to help snow professionals approach this huge change that is occurring in our industry related to national work. We'll be building some help into our Beyond the Bid program taking place in August in Hartford, CT, and our publication Snow Business is just finishing the second portion of a series of articles on the issue of nationals (the first article was in our May/June issue), and we'll be announcing more resources soon. There are ways that snow contractors are working in the national management environment, it's not as black and white as it is sometimes portrayed here, I believe. If you'd like to chat more about the positive steps SIMA is taking, email me at [email protected] and I'd be happy to tell you more...thanks


Brian,

To me, i'm sorry your comments come off as appalling and inconsiderate. You want other company's and organizations who attended your show to recognize that a USM rep had to stand up and face some heat for their business reputation? Am i understanding you right? If so i'm so disgusted!!!! When most people on this site post about not getting paid not only do i believe it but i take it as gold. USM's reputation is their problem because of their unethical business behavior and i'm appalled you can defend this type of action.

Then you go as far as saying "we have to do more than just vent in order to move forward" How does "one" move forward when USM is tying up thousands of $$$$ in revenue when they "USM" refuses to pay their subs? That's doesn't make me want to work for them or move on, in fact they have been added to my "do not do business with list".

Instead of politicking for USM, how about move on to find away to get the subs paid? I think everyone on plowsite would support this. My question to you Brian & Michael J. Donavon is do you support this?


----------



## SIMASTAFF

Grey,
I happened to check the site this morning and saw your post. My goal in that post was to share that an individual, who no longer even works with USM, should get a little credit for standing up in front of over 100 people, a portion of which were not friendly by any means. It was not easy to convince that rep to do so, and he did it because we asked him to. Since he took a risk personally and professionally for us, I felt it was right and fair to make sure folks understand that. I would have done the same for any of our panelists or anyone else who stood up and spoke at a SIMA event. Since this is over 6 months past, I don't see much more need to rehash it further.

I don't want to get into an extended debate on this topic as we've engaged in that many times over the past few years here, so I'll say my peace and if anyone wants to discuss in depth with me please email me.

SIMA is working to help small contractors to work with national companies if they choose to do so--we can't and won't make that choice for anyone. We have a lot of members who do work for these companies, some have good experiences, some do not. Our goal starting with some of the initiatives last year and moving forward in 2011 is to shed some light on why the trend is occurring, and provide some training and information that can help the local contractor make the best decision for their business--we have 4-5 different events in 2011 that will provide this kind of training and info for those interested. We will not get involved directly in payment issues on a national scale, that is not what our association is set up to do. We are not a union negotiating terms for a group of people, and our role is to provide education and networking. I realize that some folks don't agree with this, but its the reality of who we are as an association. I do see the importance of this issue and we are definitely putting a great deal of time and energy at the association toward it, but maybe not in the form that 100% of the industry thinks we should.

Grey, I respect your right to disagree, although I don't think Michael Donovan has much to do with this particular post. If you'd like to chat more shoot me an email, thanks

Sincerely
Brian Birch
SIMA


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## slongfellowii

SIMASTAFF;1236312 said:


> Grey,
> I happened to check the site this morning and saw your post. My goal in that post was to share that an individual, who no longer even works with USM, should get a little credit for standing up in front of over 100 people, a portion of which were not friendly by any means. It was not easy to convince that rep to do so, and he did it because we asked him to. Since he took a risk personally and professionally for us, I felt it was right and fair to make sure folks understand that. I would have done the same for any of our panelists or anyone else who stood up and spoke at a SIMA event. Since this is over 6 months past, I don't see much more need to rehash it further.
> 
> I don't want to get into an extended debate on this topic as we've engaged in that many times over the past few years here, so I'll say my peace and if anyone wants to discuss in depth with me please email me.
> 
> SIMA is working to help small contractors to work with national companies if they choose to do so--we can't and won't make that choice for anyone. We have a lot of members who do work for these companies, some have good experiences, some do not. Our goal starting with some of the initiatives last year and moving forward in 2011 is to shed some light on why the trend is occurring, and provide some training and information that can help the local contractor make the best decision for their business--we have 4-5 different events in 2011 that will provide this kind of training and info for those interested. We will not get involved directly in payment issues on a national scale, that is not what our association is set up to do. We are not a union negotiating terms for a group of people, and our role is to provide education and networking. I realize that some folks don't agree with this, but its the reality of who we are as an association. I do see the importance of this issue and we are definitely putting a great deal of time and energy at the association toward it, but maybe not in the form that 100% of the industry thinks we should.
> 
> Grey, I respect your right to disagree, although I don't think Michael Donovan has much to do with this particular post. If you'd like to chat more shoot me an email, thanks
> 
> Sincerely
> Brian Birch
> SIMA


The problem is when a potential national customer (Home Depot, Walmat, etc.) go to your site to solicit a national maintenance company, all they see is praise and don't see that we the small subcontractor are getting screwed. You are the BBB for us, but seam to only protect the nationals. Why would I give give SIMA money to join if they give preference to the national companys as long as they pay your salary. We ,the contractor, trust you to police or rate the performance of the people you are allowing to use your name to sway customers to use them as a service provider. If the government started promoting the mob as a contractor, and the customer would use the judgment of government to choose them, would it be ok if the mob broke a few legs (no payment of workers) to get the job done. Until SIMA start to police the contrctor that it takes money from, they will get none of mine. The worst part is the customer IS taking your recomendation and never gets to see us get screwed.


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## sle

I totally agree with the majority here. As far as SIMA goes, Thank you, but I am not interested in joining your group until this gets resolved. Oh and please, take me off your mailing list.


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## SIMASTAFF

Thanks for the thoughts both...again, I respect anyone's right to not join SIMA, it is a free country and you make the call for your businesses. But I feel that I need to be clear that we are not the BBB, that entity already exists. SIMA was not built nor is it in our governance policies to 'rate' companies or serve as an organization that stands in any kind of legal judgement for or against members or companies in the industry. We are going through a long-term process related to an ethics and complaint policy for members of our association, but we work through a volunteer board and these big issues take some time to come to consensus...we hope to provide more information later this year on that topic.

We are not the police of the snow industry, we promote education, training, certification and networking. Companies join and receive specific services from us, which do not include any type of rating or policing. This is not our focus, so I want to make sure that you all know that. There is a legal justice system in our country and other entities like the BBB that handle these issues, what they don't handle is good training, networking, and information for the snow and ice industry, that's where we come in--and we are fairly typical in our approach compared with other trade associations. We are definitely pulling together training and resources for small/local contractors who are thinking or already working for national service management companies, and will be announcing more info on these educational initiatives over the next several months.

I won't be checking this set of postings again but I am always available by email to anyone who wants to learn more about SIMA.

Thanks
Brian Birch
SIMA


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## shooterm

I've been on some of the other sima sponsored sites and like the quality information. I mean it very quality stuff. What I dont understand though is how they jumped on the bandwagon assuming national companies like USM (not someone like brickmans) is the wave of the future when they've really just been around as long as this downturn. If there business is the pen **** contract how the hell to you think there going to effect there bottom lines(SNL style REALLY)?


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## buckhigh

sle;1236614 said:


> I totally agree with the majority here. As far as SIMA goes, Thank you, but I am not interested in joining your group until this gets resolved. Oh and please, take me off your mailing list.


Ditto that! Until TRUE North and USM address all outstanding payables to their sub-contractors, SIMA will never see a penny from me. Just my opinion...

BTW-IPLOW4FUN, did True North ever pay you?


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## Westhardt Corp.

I've watched this thread from day 1, and I am impressed it still exists. While a little heated at times, it seems to be a healthy "discussion" about USM's practices. I would also like to credit Brian from SIMA with responding to a comment quoting him, several months after the post was made. Email notification is a beautiful thing (and if you don't have it enabled,_enable it_--trust me).

Speaking for myself and my companies, I have read USM's contractor "agreement". I would not ever sign it, nor operate under its jurisdiction. That having been said, I give the USM rep huge credit for knowingly putting himself into the crosshairs. Not defending USM or their rep in any way, but common sense says that the rep _probably_ has little or nothing to do with the "problems" that contractors experience with USM. He is a sales rep, and my guess is he deals primarily with national companies, offering USM's services to them. For him to do what he did, IMHO--very respectable move. The execution of his appearance is something I cannot comment on, because I wasn't there to witness it. But this stands as an excellent example of how contractors should--and should _not_ act when dealing with vendor issues. Getting pissed off and hot under the collar is not at all productive, nor will it typically effect any type of resolution. Not to mention it appears, well...._unprofessional._

The lesson to be learned here is to _*read the contract*_ and if you don't understand it *entirely*, then talk to an attorney or someone who is familiar with contract language. From there, know when to walk away, and prevent putting yourself into the situation (where the vendor is playing games or not paying) in the first place. That is how you avoid being that guy at the SIMA show who really, _truly_ wants to string the USM rep up by his heels and stone him--even though he really had little to do with the problem, and is just a convenient outlet for one's "frustrations."


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## procut1

I no longer feel sorry for anyone working for USM or getting screwed.

These "contractors" read a contract that said......

"You are going to work for us at 25% market rates. You will be 100% liable for your assigned properties. If we get sued, you and your insurance companies will pay for your attorney, our attorney, and our customers attorney. If the plaintiff wins, you will pay for all 3 of us. And in return for your work, we will pay you if we feel like it. If we dont pay you, you are out of luck. You cant sue us, you cant sue our customer, heck, you cant even talk to our customer. And you better not stop work if we dont pay, then we will sue YOU"

Its right there in the contract. Thats a cut and paste from an email my attorney sent me when I sent him the contract and asked him to look it over.

If you sign their contract, you deserve what you get


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## Matson Snow

Westhardt Corp.;1237070 said:


> I've watched this thread from day 1, and I am impressed it still exists. While a little heated at times, it seems to be a healthy "discussion" about USM's practices. I would also like to credit Brian from SIMA with responding to a comment quoting him, several months after the post was made. Email notification is a beautiful thing (and if you don't have it enabled,_enable it_--trust me).
> 
> Speaking for myself and my companies, I have read USM's contractor "agreement". I would not ever sign it, nor operate under its jurisdiction. That having been said, I give the USM rep huge credit for knowingly putting himself into the crosshairs. Not defending USM or their rep in any way, but common sense says that the rep _probably_ has little or nothing to do with the "problems" that contractors experience with USM. He is a sales rep, and my guess is he deals primarily with national companies, offering USM's services to them. For him to do what he did, IMHO--very respectable move. The execution of his appearance is something I cannot comment on, because I wasn't there to witness it. But this stands as an excellent example of how contractors should--and should _not_ act when dealing with vendor issues. Getting pissed off and hot under the collar is not at all productive, nor will it typically effect any type of resolution. Not to mention it appears, well...._unprofessional._
> 
> The lesson to be learned here is to _*read the contract*_ and if you don't understand it *entirely*, then talk to an attorney or someone who is familiar with contract language. From there, know when to walk away, and prevent putting yourself into the situation (where the vendor is playing games or not paying) in the first place. That is how you avoid being that guy at the SIMA show who really, _truly_ wants to string the USM rep up by his heels and stone him--even though he really had little to do with the problem, and is just a convenient outlet for one's "frustrations."





procut1;1237080 said:


> I no longer feel sorry for anyone working for USM or getting screwed.
> 
> These "contractors" read a contract that said......
> 
> "You are going to work for us at 25% market rates. You will be 100% liable for your assigned properties. If we get sued, you and your insurance companies will pay for your attorney, our attorney, and our customers attorney. If the plaintiff wins, you will pay for all 3 of us. And in return for your work, we will pay you if we feel like it. If we dont pay you, you are out of luck. You cant sue us, you cant sue our customer, heck, you cant even talk to our customer. And you better not stop work if we dont pay, then we will sue YOU"
> 
> Its right there in the contract. Thats a cut and paste from an email my attorney sent me when I sent him the contract and asked him to look it over.
> 
> If you sign their contract, you deserve what you get


I agree with what Both of you guys are saying........But, My issue here is SIMA is Almost Endorsing the NSP model ....Well, I think SIMA as an Organization should take a stand against a Model that is in place to in all intent and purpose Screw the Contractor performing the Work...Lets not embrace this system.....Im just finding it harder to plunk down $130+ dollars a year for somthing im really starting Not to need.....Its Not just USM..Its Brickman, SMS assist, Its all the Nationals that are Killing this industry in the Form of Low pricing and Lousy contracts....


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## Westhardt Corp.

I see your point, and it's definitely worthy of discussion. As an industry group with a paid membership, they should first strive to inform the members of new & different technologies/methods/tools/equipment/etc available to the industry to improve it. I don't think SIMA should have an opinion on it one way or the other, really. Their role is one of information--what everyone does with it is up to them.

That having been said, I don't think the NSP model is the problem, exactly. On paper, it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense to these big companies--single point of contact/billing/etc. BUT, the problem lies (IMHO) in the way the NSPs try to do business. In this case, USM--they offer the jobs to contractors for a reduced rate, and offer a contract that IMHO no sane businessman would ever sign. BUT, people go through with it anyway...and thus they perpetuate the cycle. It seems the NSPs assume they hold all the cards in this game, and that they will always find contractors who will play by the rules they have laid forth in said contract. JUST SAY NO.

If that message spreads, than they will have no alternative but to engage is "fairer" business practices.


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## procut1

I have my thoughts on this topic. unfortunately everytime I spend a long time and write out a well versed lengthy narrative the whole thread disappears for no reason.

In a nutshell. The National model is the way of the future and everyone is jumping on that bandwagon. Even many of the local contractors are adopting the ways.

They are all trying to be middlemen. 

The fact is with the economy, there is no shortage of guys out there willing to work cheap.

As a contractor, I wonder myself why I continue to bust my rear with doing snow in house when I know for fact I could sub out my contracts for 50% and not have to own a truck.

Now, 50% is far less than what it would cost me to do the job in house, but the fact is there are guys that will do it.

Youre only going to see more and more of it.

Yet another reason its my last year in the snow business.


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## Westhardt Corp.

My "hunch" is that we will see the departure of a lot of good contractors for that very reason. The "contractor" base that remains will continue to provide the same stellar service that NSPs pay top dollar for. The economy will rebound, and the clients will tire of the same shoddy service. The "retired" contractors will re-enter the field, and provide the services that the clients require, for a fair price that benefits all.

The question is--how long with the cycle take?


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## procut1

If it happens it will take a real long time.

The point that I argue i that we as contractors have a skewed view.

We see a problematic relationship that results in what we perceive as poor service to the end customer, lets say Walmart.

Walmart on the other hand could not be happier. They are saving millions in cost. They are also saving millions in liability payouts because they pass that on to USM who passes that on to us.

They play 100% by the numbers. Their idea of acceptable service and our idea is different.

If they lose store sales due to lousy plowing or mowing that cost them more than they are saving by going with USM, THEN there will be a problem. 

But thats not the case. So if you went to the Walmart executives and said "Hows that nightmare with USM working for ya?" They would come back and say "What nightmare? This was the best thing we ever did"

Its a no-lose situation for them. 

The days of these big box stores being willing to pay a premium for a premium service are over.


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## Westhardt Corp.

Ah, touché, sir. Nicely done!

I only hope that the BBC (big box companies) consider the opinions/complaints if their employees in the decision, because I know of many store managers (actual, not the "face of the day") who are steamed over the shoddy service that has now become _their _problem that _they_ now have to explain to the customers and subordinates.

Time will tell. Until then, take the Nancy Reagan way.....JUST SAY NO.


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## procut1

Westhardt Corp.;1237809 said:


> Ah, touché, sir. Nicely done!
> 
> I only hope that the BBC (big box companies) consider the opinions/complaints if their employees in the decision, because I know of many store managers (actual, not the "face of the day") who are steamed over the shoddy service that has now become _their _problem that _they_ now have to explain to the customers and subordinates.
> 
> Time will tell. Until then, take the Nancy Reagan way.....JUST SAY NO.


When it starts affecting profits they will.

They deal with whining from subordinates all the time.

It all goes by the numbers. A store manager of a busy store may want 30 employees. Well corporate authorizes 20. He complains, they tell him,,,,,"The numbers allow for X amount of payroll and that gives you 20 employees, figure it out"

Snow service is paid for out of a stores PROFIT not just sales

There is a supercenter by me thats getting done for 20k Before USM it was 60

Thats a 40k difference saved from PROFIT.

Figuring a really high profit like 5% which is HUGE for retail.

That store would have to lose almost $800,000 in sales as a result of snow plowing for it to make management notice.

So it could cost them half a million in sales and they are still ahead of the game


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## Westhardt Corp.

While it does ultimately affect the bottom line, any type of property maintenance is simply additional overhead. It's factored in along with every other overhead cost. Where they cut costs (ie: NSP), the should see it reflected in the net profits. And I think the highly guarded secret of NSP is that they aren't doing it for nearly as much less as the contractors think. It's what the NSP _pays out to the contractor_ that is dramatically less. I may or may not have heard a reliable rumor that a certain BBC paid their NSP a _significant_ six figures per month for a certain group of (over a dozen) stores. Said NSP may or may not have paid out less than half of any six figure amount to a contractor to service those same locations (yes, _all_ of them). There's definitely a lot of money that the contractors no longer see working for BBCs....but I don't think it went the same place everyone else seems to think.

For this WM, is that a seasonal or monthly figure?


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## procut1

WM is a seasonal. For the first or second biggest grossing store in the country.

The hard part is not knowing the real inner workings of the deal the NSPs have with the chains.

We dont know how much they are getting paid and only assume that they are charging a LOT less because they only hire lowball contractors willing to work for 25-50% of what the contract should be.

So you either have.

1. They charge much less and take a small percentage and rely on their contract to make up the difference by finding ways not to pay the contractors.

2. They charge a little less, then try to maximize their profits by hiring lowball contractors and then use their contract to hold the contractor up against a wall for performance that he cant meet.

3. The contractors are not following the protocol and legitimately not keeping up their end of the bargain regardless of what they are charging.

Personally I dont think its the standard business practice for these guys to screw contractors. And on here you only get part of the story.

What I think happens a lot is that some dreamy eyed contractor gets so excited at the chance to plow the local walmart and be a "big boy" that he takes the contract at whatever they are offering and has no clue that its peanuts.

A guy plowing driveways at $20 a shot can get real excited over the prospect of GUARANTEED TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Then once he gets into it, he realizes that money doesnt even cover his salt and fuel and it puts a real squeeze on him to keep up the performance. He is underfunded and working check to check.

Each storm he is losing his butt on and he flat out runs out of money to carry the contract.

Then in turn, his performance doesn't meet the contract terms. So that gives USM a legitimate reason to withhold or delay payment.

Now, he is out of money, cant perform the contract that he busted his but day and night to try and pull off.

And ON TOP OF THAT after all his hard work and lost sleep, it still doesn't meet the specifications so he doesn't get paid.

Then he comes on here complaining that he busted his ass for USM and they are screwing him out of money.

That to me is a realistic outcome.

With this winter being as bad as it is....Im on set contract.....When I am between checks for the condos, life is rough......And Im getting good pricing for them and most years make out pretty well.

But I dont have enough cash in reserve and wasnt prepared for a record year not in my favor.

You bid places on a multi year contract with the risk that some years you make out really well in your favor, and other years they may cost you more to service then you make. But in the end you should profit well.

Personally with the economy crashing and credit cut off, I wasnt prepared for this to be the year that Im in the negative.

So while in the past, if a check is a few days late it was no big deal. Now I find myself calling to get it early, and getting real stressed if its not here by the due date.

Ive gotten lucky all year that a check arrives just in time for the next snowstorm so I have fuel and salt, but I have gone to bed at night worrying about things as simple as fuel that used to be no big deal.

So even at market prices (above market according to my customers). With it being such a tough year, Im barely holding on. 

I find myself thinking of my customers as the enemy when it snows. I feel like Im getting screwed. Even though thats not technically the case.

When I get a check for $7000 for the month, and I have $10,000 in labor, fuel and salt waiting to be paid for that month, it makes for a real miserable existence, especially knowing there are 2 more storms on the way with no end in sight.

I can only imagine what it feels like to be in that position and on top of it all charging FAR LESS than what you need to be charging.

A customer calling me in the past for a service call, like a narrow sidewalk or buried hydrant used to be no big deal.

Now I find myself wanting to tell them off on the phone. 3 days straight of plowing, going bankrupt to service their property, and THEY COMPLAIN AND WANT TO HOLD A CHECK FOR THIS?!?!?!

I want to tell everyone how I'm getting screwed and how the customers are scumbags.

But the truth is.....Its my own fault.
It feels unfair but its not.

Hell.......I even wrote the contract.

So even though, theyre not at fault....You wont find me having anything nice to say about my customers at this point in time.


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## ghost

Matson Snow;1054503 said:


> SIMA is in a tough position....But, they need to look at the best interest of it Membership..
> 
> I am a Member and i just dont understand why SIMA would go to bat for a company like USM....
> 
> I have one of USMs contracts sitting on my deck right now. I was thinking about doing some work for them this year...BUT, after reading it...Not a chance..That contract alone raises so many red flags...Have you read one of their contracts Brian????
> 
> All i can say to SIMA is, just do whats in the best interest of the masses ( Your Membership) and not the select few.....


Is is the very reason we and many others won't join SIMA


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## jerrydean

Way to go Lawn King!!! Finally someone said the TRUTH!!! NEVER NEVER NEVER work for national management companies. I have tried them all Brickman, USM, Lipinski ..... No profit, no trust, no pay... If nobody was stupid enough to work for them, these chains would put the burden back on their local managers and us local boys could put the price where it should be!


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## mullis56

Ummm....Walmart has local management control now!


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## Ramairfreak98ss

mullis56;1320692 said:


> Ummm....Walmart has local management control now!


thats right... contractor in our area is doing construction for two of them and we might get all maintenance through them, usm has a&p/pathmark contract so won't have those accounts anymore this year for snow


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## Ramairfreak98ss

ghost;1238448 said:


> Is is the very reason we and many others won't join SIMA


we considered it a couple times, each time a sima/usm argument arises and i decide that the $ is best used somewhere else.. nobody cares if your sima approved or what not. We've never had a contract request for it nor does anyone really care, personal driveway plowing or big store/mall contracts.


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## Ramairfreak98ss

SpankyVonShponk;1049646 said:


> Is anyone else having problems receiving payments from last seasons snow services from US Maintenance?


spanky... email me with your city/state and amount owed and ill forward you some helpful information  [email protected]


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## inferno13xx

i am still receiving payment but probably got 98% of mine.


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