# why even have insurance ?



## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

i have been plowing snow for about 5 years and i have just had my first claim. 
to make a long story short. i cliped a plastic sign attached to one of those automatic bank teller thing's. there was just about 0 damage don't to the thing just the plastic tube up top poped out.

anyway the claim was for $5000 and about 20 minutes after i filed the claim it was denied and i was droped from my insurance. they basicaly said that because i was useing a plow truck plow snow that i was not covered on my $1millon liability policy.  

any one ever have problems like this with their insurance ?


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

Was snowplowing listed on your insurance. not all policies include it, and if you didnt ask/tell them about it . yes they will drop you.


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## lodogg89 (Jul 8, 2006)

i told my insurance agent that i needed it for plowing and he said okay, i was covered. Did you ever talk to them about it, or just assume you were covered.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

BNC SERVICES;354464 said:


> Was snowplowing listed on your insurance. not all policies include it, and if you didnt ask/tell them about it . yes they will drop you.


oh ya it was listed, this was the exact policy the company i work for < Snow Systems> requires you to have.

my auto insurance does not cover plowing snow. basicaly i was told when the plow is on the ground im not coverd by my auto insurance that's when the comerical liability kick's in. it even say's in the comercial liabilty policy that property damage caused by plowing snow is covered !

< .edit. >
i don't think i explained that right the first time.


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## lodogg89 (Jul 8, 2006)

so why dont you tell them that, i dont understand, you say you have the coverage, yet they dropped you???


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

here is an example. you can see where it says business description. If its not in writing some where your not covered for it..I should probably have them change mine to plowing..


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

lodogg89;354481 said:


> so why dont you tell them that, i dont understand, you say you have the coverage, yet they dropped you???


lol i don't understand it either !!! 
i have a $1million liability policy for plowing snow. it say's in the policy that property damage is covered !

when talking to the insurance adjuster she said ...
i should file this under my auto insurance because my truck did the damage while i was plowing snow !

im waiteing for my lawyer to call me back, im at a total loss for word's. 
this makes 0 sense to me.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

BNC SERVICES;354488 said:


> here is an example. you can see where it says business description. If its not in writing some where your not covered for it..I should probably have them change mine to plowing..


not only do i have the same policy as you i have it with the same company.
im pretty sure we would have the same weasel of an agent as well... Kevin W. Kulma ring a bell ?

<.EDIT .> 
didn't see your insurance adjusters name at the bottom when i first looked .


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

Wow , let me know what happens? Ive never had a claim with them in my 5 years of business so i have no more insight. They should pay for the claim if everything is how you say it is.

I worked for snowsystems too.lol. I ran a loader over at the Motorola site.


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

Actually my agent is in peru ill. He is a friend of mine, so i went through him..


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

BNC SERVICES;354496 said:


> Wow , let me know what happens? Ive never had a claim with them in my 5 years of business so i have no more insight. They should pay for the claim if everything is how you say it is.
> 
> I worked for snowsystems too.lol. I ran a loader over at the Motorola site.


the one in Deerfield ? i get sen't over there to help out all the time. i use to work the BG route with Greg.


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

The one in shaumburg ...its the huge Motorola(small city) bye 90.


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

ahh ok , i know what one your talking about . thankfully i havent been sent way out there yet.


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## dforbes (Jan 14, 2005)

I backed into a car last year and at first my insurance company said the same thing. you probably need to call thier main office and talk to a superviser. If you are unable to resolve this with them most states have an insurance department that investigates claims that companies refuse to pay. after much arguing I convinced them to pay on my general liability. when the car got fixed it ended up being a couple of hundred dollars more than the estimate, so when they paid this part of the claim they changed it back to my auto policy. Then I had to start arguing all over again. Finally got it straight after about 8 months


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## Rcgm (Dec 17, 2000)

I have State Auto.My agent said that the snow plowing is covered under the auto.Which i have a commericial auto policy.Which covers if I hit something with the plow.My Liability covers my landscaping and other stuff.I have a equipment floater on my Liability policy which covers my tools for theft along with the plow.The number 1 flag I think of you not being covered for snow plowing under your policy is if they say you are covered under general liability policy ******** your Auto has to cover snow removal because you are removing it with a automobile.If they try to give you a liability policy under snow removal and parking lot sweeping RUN.I am telling you you will not be covered.


RCGM
brad


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

hold on! so snow removal must be covered under your vehicle insurance and not your general liability. general liability wont do anything for you if youre plowing?


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

terrapro;354762 said:


> hold on! so snow removal must be covered under your vehicle insurance and not your general liability. general liability wont do anything for you if youre plowing?


Snowplowing ( or whatever you are using your vehicle for) needs to be on the Commercial Vehicle policy. Then, of course, listed as an activity on the General Liability. So, snowplowing needs to be shown on both.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

BNC SERVICES;354496 said:


> Wow , let me know what happens? Ive never had a claim with them in my 5 years of business so i have no more insight. .


WOW never had a claim in five years! We have claims EVERY year, back into cars, slip and falls etc etc etc it never ends


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

Mick;354810 said:


> Snowplowing ( or whatever you are using your vehicle for) needs to be on the Commercial Vehicle policy. Then, of course, listed as an activity on the General Liability. So, snowplowing needs to be shown on both.


on top of that, all my plows and other equipment that are mounted on the trucks, are also listed in my auto policy along with serial and model numbers... .


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

paphillips;354826 said:


> WOW never had a claim in five years! We have claims EVERY year, back into cars, slip and falls etc etc etc it never ends


havnt had a single claim, that includes snowplowing and all my remodeling/construction work too.


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## Midwest BuildIt Inc (Nov 14, 2004)

BNC SERVICES;354829 said:


> havnt had a single claim, that includes snowplowing and all my remodeling/construction work too.


well let me add to that, for the most part its generally just me, I only pay drivers that i know to do any plowing or driving. And during the summer when its more than just me, the other guys working for me are also self employed and usually work alone. so there are not any problems cause everybody is usually good at what there doing, which is why i only use them and dont hire blindly.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Mick;354810 said:


> Snowplowing ( or whatever you are using your vehicle for) needs to be on the Commercial Vehicle policy. Then, of course, listed as an activity on the General Liability. So, snowplowing needs to be shown on both.


if the general liability wont pay for anything why pay them for plowing if it will end up being claimed on your auto anyway. thats what i am wondering


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## jcesar (Sep 14, 2006)

If I am wrong, Someone correct me. 

The damage caused by your truck, or plow is covered by the commercial auto policy.

The General Liability lists snowplowing as an activity, so you are covered, if someone slips and sues, or for lawsuit on a contract, etc.

I believe that is how it works.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

jcesar;355072 said:



> If I am wrong, Someone correct me.
> 
> The damage caused by your truck, or plow is covered by the commercial auto policy.
> 
> ...


I agree, plus most GL insurance is based on gross, so, no snow, no pay.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Basher, where did that come from about not paying if there is no snow? You buy insurance based on what MIGHT happen. I don't know of any insurance company that's going to reimburse your premium if there is no snow. If you know of one, please let me know.

Anyway, JCESAR has it basically right about the two types of insurance. Commercial Vehicle is for damage done by the truck in the act of plowing or any other activity involving the truck. General Liability essentially involves coverage for any damage or loss occuring from an event not involving the truck. Not only if someone slipped and fell on a lot you had plowed, but other business-related losses. Read your policy - you might be surprised at what is covered (and not covered).


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Mick;355097 said:


> Basher, where did that come from about not paying if there is no snow? You buy insurance based on what MIGHT happen. I don't know of any insurance company that's going to reimburse your premium if there is no snow. If you know of one, please let me know.QUOTE]
> 
> Snow removal is a minor part of what I do. The cost of my GL insurance is based on gross. Obviously property, garage keepers, inland marine, commercial vehicle are all straight premiums. So is GL but because it's gross based I pay "estimated" premiums. I'm audited every year as I am with my WC insurance. I don't pay any GL insurance on snowplowing unless there is an income from plowing.
> 
> And yes I've received "refunds" (they call them credits) if the guesstimated payroll, and/or gross premium payments where to high. Just goes to pay next years ever rising insurance rates.:waving:


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Ok. I just buy a year's premium for snowplowing/landscaping. If I have no snow, no income or anything else, I'm just out the money. I have no Workman's Comp to pay. If I did, WC would work the way you're saying, but that's the only thing.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

You probably pay a lower % of gross then I do. I found i could buy straight Snow Removal @ a marginally lower % not enough to cover the bookkeeping easier to just toss it under the GL umbrella.


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## NorthernILPlwr (Oct 20, 2006)

I have American Family as well. I told them I have a snowplow on my truck and was using the truck for plowing. I plow for a company and they needed a copy of my insurance. I gave that to them and they said it was enough. I do not have business insurance. I have regular auto insurance. I am suprised that Snow Systems doesnt cover you as a subcontractor.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Mick;355114 said:


> Ok. I just buy a year's premium for snowplowing/landscaping. If I have no snow, no income or anything else, I'm just out the money.


 You pay the same amount of $ for GL insurance regardless if you gross $200 or $200,000?


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

jcesar;355072 said:


> If I am wrong, Someone correct me.
> 
> The damage caused by your truck, or plow is covered by the commercial auto policy.
> 
> ...


yeah i dont know what i was thinking, i already knew that! must of had one of those brain fart things people talk so much about


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

basher;355293 said:


> You pay the same amount of $ for GL insurance regardless if you gross $200 or $200,000?


I just checked over my policy since I couldn't remember seeing anything about this. No, there's no provision about gross income, just for payroll.

Another thing to consider is that, like Basher noted, for him snowplowing is a minor part of his business. For me, snowplowing is the major part.


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## Rcgm (Dec 17, 2000)

Mick;354810 said:


> Snowplowing ( or whatever you are using your vehicle for) needs to be on the Commercial Vehicle policy. Then, of course, listed as an activity on the General Liability. So, snowplowing needs to be shown on both.


Glad to see I finally have done something right.LOL Thats how I got it listed.

RCGM
Brad


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Mick;355384 said:


> I just checked over my policy since I couldn't remember seeing anything about this. No, there's no provision about gross income, just for payroll.
> .


Wow, most insurance wants the premium to reflect the exposure. How do they base it? on number of pieces of equipment, does it cover subs?


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

basher;355516 said:


> Wow, most insurance wants the premium to reflect the exposure. How do they base it? on number of pieces of equipment, does it cover subs?


Looking at my policy, it seems like it's based on:

Type of ownership (Indiviual vs Corporation, Partnership or Joint Venture)
Liability Coverage ($1,000,000/1,000,000)
Type of Business (Snow Removal is primary/Landscaping is secondary)
Classification of Business: Residential Only

It also seems that the premium is based on my experience plowing, as the rate actually decreases most years. I have had Commercial Vehicle and General Liability insurance since the very first place I ever plowed for pay which was the first year I ever plowed.

It doesn't cover subs that I can see. I'd have to ask for clarification.

This is a very rural area which plays into it and the agent had to actually show the Underwriter just how rural at times, like when I wanted to plow a library. People from the city would not believe how isolated this library is. It sits in the middle of a lot with no other buildings on that side of the highway within 1/4 mile. One house directly accross the highway is the only one within 1/2 mile. When I started, I was limited to a 25 mile radius from my base of operations, which prevented me from plowing any population area of any size.

So, yes, it's still based on risk or "exposure". Just not a whole lot of risk around here. Maine is one of those states not known for lawsuits. Mostly, when you fall down, you get up and go on. I even saw where the basis for snow-related laws is: "This is Maine, it snows in Maine, snow is slick".


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

just an update on what is going on ...
basically i was sold the wrong policy by American Family insurance.

my General liability insurance only cover's slips and fall's... something i do NOT need as a sub contractor of snow systems.

i am basically screwed because i know as little about the insurance being sold to me as my agent. Kevin W. Kulma < a complete moron > 
the insurance i needed was commercial auto. it was explained to my agent many times that i needed to be covered for property damage. i was told that the policy he was selling me would cover any damage i could do while plowing snow. i also have been called on a monthly biases by MR Kulma trying to get me to switch my truck's insurance to American Family. NOT commercial auto insurance !!!

in a conference call with Mr. Kulma and his manager , Mr. Kulma flat out lied. he tried to explain to me and his manager that he sen't me quotes for commercial auto insurance but i refused them. he was asked by me if he ever said the policy he sold me would cover property damage. he said no right before his phone mysteriously cut out. when we got him back on the line he just started reading straight from the 50 page book of exceptions this policy has, trying to explain to me why i was not covered. it must have been embarrassing when he was asked by his manager exactly what this policy cover's. needless to say he couldn't .

while i am at fault in all of this, i put my trust in Mr Kulma to get me insured properly. i am completely disgusted with American family insurance. to add insult to injury before the conference call was over. Mr. Kulma had the ball's to attempt to sell me commercial auto insurance. in case this happens again HE wan'ts me to be covered correctly. :angry:

if you have insurance with American Family i suggest you get a hold of MR. Sam Ralph. he will make sure you have the correct policy. he works almost exclusively with landscaper's and snow removal company's to get them insured correctly.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Mick;355525 said:


> Looking at my policy, it seems like it's based on:
> 
> Type of ownership (Indiviual vs Corporation, Partnership or Joint Venture)
> Liability Coverage ($1,000,000/1,000,000)
> ...


This is Litigation central. We quit doing the center that the unemployment office was located in due the the number of "slip and falls" one a broken wrist that the med records showed happened 2 weeks before the first snowfall. They where kind enough to drop the suit.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

basher;356992 said:


> They where kind enough to drop the suit.


Thanks for the laugh. I needed it:waving: . Amazing what some people try.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

nekos, as much as this stinks, you aren't the first person to be sold the wrong policy. I've advised many on here to make their agent "put it in writing" only to have them come back and say something like "that company doesn't sell that type insurance, so they wanted to sell me that other type". Usually they're trying to say you'll be covered for plowing on a "personal use" policy - "we'll just kind of sneak it through". 

They're always your friend and looking out for you - until it comes time to file a claim.


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## Rcgm (Dec 17, 2000)

nekos;356958 said:


> just an update on what is going on ...
> basically i was sold the wrong policy by American Family insurance.
> 
> my General liability insurance only cover's slips and fall's... something i do NOT need as a sub contractor of snow systems.
> ...


LOL no beacuse anything you said.But same thing happened to me I called my agent at American Family he said sure we got that kind of policy looks like ow here it is snow removal and sweeping insurance.Thats why I said in a earlier post if they try to sell you that run.I am with state auto now the dot there I's and cross there T's.In there questionaire they wanted to know if I ever carry dynomite. Who they think I am Jimmy Walker?

RCGM
Brad


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*A Good agent is hard to find...*

When I was doing business in Massachusetts it was almost impossible to find more than three companies that wrote Commercial...It seemed to be getting harder and harder every year...
Looks like a lesson here is find a agent who is also intelligent and maybe specializes in commercial...The fact that I was running dump trucks and plowing, wow short of hauling explosives there wasn't much more expensive....
Another lesson, don't ASSUME like I did because you've been with a company for a few years that you are getting the best price..After three years with no claims and a good relationship with my agent I decided to shop around...I ended up saving $1,500 for the identical coverage going ten minutes away...


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## nekos (Oct 16, 2003)

for every one saying i was dumb and it's my fault ... your right . lol 
i didn't understand my policy and got burned. what really pisses me of is that i have been with out insurance for basically 5 years ... what if i did $50 or $100K worth of damage or worse killed some one. i don't know what i would do. that could have almost destroyed my life and all i have worked for. 

anyway it's done and over, live and learn i guess


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## robertpeiffer (Jan 23, 2007)

*Insurance Questions*

As an Underwriter and agent for over 25 years I wanted to address a few points of interest on Snow Removal exposures.
1) Up until a few years ago, a snow plow ( not a truck with a plow on the front but a plow) would be covered under the equipment policy for physical damage and the General Liability would pick up the exposure while the plow was driven.
2) Then the Insurance Servicve Office (ISO) changed the form that all insurance companies use. It changed the definitions of vehicle. They were and still are excluded on a General Liability policy. This change in wording stated that a vehicle would include any auto or motor driven vehicle that is licensed for travel on the roads. Since most plows are licensed for the road-so that they can be transported/driven to job sites vs on a flatbed they now are excluded on the Gl policy. Coverage is now found on the Auto policy for Plows
3) Trucks that have a plow mounted on the front would be covered on the commercial auto policy. Note the key word here is commercial auto policy -- some personal auto policies exclude work related claims. ( this exclusion is not approved in all states but more allow this exclusion than not.)
4) Items that would be covered on the auto policy would be any claim that occur while the auto was in motion--Plow threw snow stone onto an auto and damage a cracked a window.--damaged a building while pushing snow on a parking lot--hitting the side of a building --damage to a drive through because of height issues.
5) The General Liability policy would offered coverage after you let the property for slip and fall issues-failure to clear a parking lot or sidewalk after or during a snow storm.

6) IF YOU HAVE A CLAIM--IT IS THE RESPONABILITY OF YOUR AGENT TO ASSIST IN FILING THE CLAIMS AND MAKE SURE INS COMPANY HONOR THEIR POLICY. IF THE AGENT DID NOT WRITE THE EXPOSURE ON THE CORRECT FORM--YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO COLLECT UNDER HIS ERRORS AND OMISSIONS POLICY WHICH ALL AGENCIES ARE REQUIRED TO CARRY.

7) ALL SUB CONTRACTORS SHOULD ALSO CARRY WORKERS COMPENSATION. iN SOME STATES, (PA FOR ONE) EX CLUED COVERAGE FOR A SOLE PROPERITOR BUT THIS DOES NOT STOP THE GENERAL CONTRACTORS OR PROPERTY OWNER INSURANCE COMPANY FROM MAKING A CHARGE FOR THE AMOUNT AHT THEY 1099 OR PAID YOU UNDER A SUB CONTRACTORS AGREEMENT.

8) if YOUR AGENT IS WORTH IS COMMISSIONS, HE/SHE WILL OBTAIN A POLICY FOR YOUR BUSINESS WHICH WILL ALLOW YOU TO FORWARD A COI TO THE GC OR PROPERTY OWNER. THIS ALLOWS THEM TO NOT BE BILLED FOR THIS EXPOSURE, YOUR COST IS JUST UNDER $372 FOR THE YEAR AND YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET A HIGHER PER HOUR FEE BECAUSE YOU NOW HAVE SAVED THE GC PREMIUM DOLLARS.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Great stuff 3 :bluebounc :bluebounc :bluebounc for robertpeiffer
he didn't even try to sell just provide valuable info to all of us.

*THANKS!:salute: *


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## NorthernILPlwr (Oct 20, 2006)

I talked to my American Family agent and he told me I am only covered if I am pushing my own driveway. I told him, Vic, you know I live in an apartment........so how could I possibly have my own driveway? 

So long story short I have to get friggin commercial insurance. I think I will look into this when I get a nicer truck. Until then I'll just be careful.


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