# Season cant end soon enough



## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

After 15 years doing this, thankfully this is my last year.
Have been downsizing for the past 4 years and now only have 2 condo complexes on seasonal contract and I cant wait to be rid of them.
Its going to be interesting for the first time in my life to experience snow out the window and not have to do anything. Im excited about that.

Where I finally made my decision.

One of the two complexes I have had for 10 years minus a couple months when they went with someone else and the second storm asked me to please come back.
Have kept the price the same for 10 YEARS, no increase.
I get along great with the board, and have that place down so well that it would take years for someone to do the job we do.
The board is always happy and loves the work.

This is the last year on the contract. Keep in mind its the toughest year I have plowed and have lost my butt bigtime on this contract. We have been there every 3-4 days for a storm and its been a living hell.
So the board president approaches me the other day and we;re talking.
He says....

"Youre definately taking the contract again right?"
I said. Most likely yes
"Good because we definitely want to continue with using you guys."
At this point I was almost reconsidering leaving the business.
"Send us a new contract ASAP and we'll sign it at the upcoming board meeting. But obviously with a SUBSTANTIAL REDUCTION TO BRING YOUR PRICE IN LINE WITH CURRENT MARKET PRICES"

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!

I said......"You mean, obviously with a reasonable increase to bring my price in line with the more severe weather patterns over the last few years, double fuel price, and all other costs through the roof"
He laughed.

They took other bids and he informed me I need to TRIM THE COST BY 30%. And on top of that add machine work as an INCLUDED SERVICE"
I went to the office with him and he handed me a folder with bids they took.
Sure as hell. The bids are 20-30-50% less than mine and include more.

Now. With a couple exceptions these arent your typical scrub lowballers. They are established companies.
After 10 years there, I know the costs dam near to the penny. On a bad year like this year, costs are exceeding revenue. But I do multi year contracts and that is supposed to level out. Unfortunately we have had about 5 above average, very costly years in a row. So I know its time to raise the price.

What these "well established" companies are doing is they are jumping on the National Management bandwagon.
They are using their names to bid the work cheap and then sub it out to independent guys with one truck and a couple shovelers for even cheaper.
Now....I will say......Its a good idea....
It makes a lot more sense doing it that way than trying to run trucks employees and equipment in house.

Im not posting this to whine or complain. I knew the business was heading this direction, its been obvious for years which is why this being my last year, has been in the plans for a long time.
Im actually moving halfway across the country, so it doesnt matter.

I just thought it was funny as hell how far off we were.
Happy customer
Overworked contractor who didnt raise price in 10 years
Contractor that absorbed doubling fuel cost, doubling salt cost, and winters much more severe than the norm 10 years ago.

Surely time for a "cost of living increase"
And they want me to cut the contract by a third.

Im getting out at the right time.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Procut, best of luck to an industry veteran..........

To comment on your timing and some parallel issues I've been seeing the last couple seasons, which are troubling.

Timing, couldn't hit it much better. Nationals are pressing markets to the point where things and smaller contractors who got in bed with them will pop. Thus it will create a whole new breed of low balling bottom feeder to fend off. SO MANY of my prospects this year were specing "all inlcusive" contracts, no limit seasonals, not a 3-5 year deal to at least let averages play out, but 1-2 year contracts including ALL plowing, salt, shoveling, calcium and machine work to stack or relocate included. People are actually fighting over these contracts, those who took too many are folding right now, others will likely drop their growing season prices to creat volume to (in their eyes) recoup some of the beating they're taking now.

We've seen the trend coming, we've NEVER had a no cap seasonal contract before this season. We took one on, 3 year deal, with a really sweet landscape maintenance portion. (otherwise there is 0 upside to these no cap, all inclusive turds). I look forward to having less local competition, but dread the guys who stick out the winter and lowball their way through the growing season, to then draw down the market further next year having the same issues they've had this season with snow, and looking for a way to generate quick income.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Its going to keep heading that direction.

One of the first warning signs I saw was back a few years ago when I was still interested in growing the business. ONE YEAR SEASONAL contracts.

Guys were fighting over those and to me, It made no sense. How in the world can you do a seasonal contract that is one year without dam near doubling your price.
The whole point behind seasonal contracts is the multi-year part. You need AT LEAST 3 years. 5 is better
This year for example....Im losing butt on my couple seasonals

So you had a bunch of guys, all going after these one year seasonals, and all charging less than the next guy.
I saw that as a recipe for disaster and in fact it has been.

Very rarely do you see the same guy doing the same contract 2 years in a row. 
There is not a single contract that I know of that is not AT LEAST 30% LESS than it was 10 years ago.

This isnt computers or pharmaceuticals where the cost to make is nothing. But customers look at it this way. "Years ago a laptop was $2000. Now I can get one for $200" 
They think snow should be the same.

10 years ago diesel was 1.25
Insurance was $2000 for the year
Trucks were 20,000 brand new
A cadillac of a snowplow was $3000
Salt was $35 a ton
We averaged 10 events a year with 2 being around 12" (aka a big ass storm) and a couple salting only events
And "zero tolerance" for commercial accounts was the norm

Now diesel is $3.75
Insurance is $10,000
Trucks are $30,000
My last new plow was almost $7,000
Salt is over $100 a ton
We get some snow event at least once a week...About every 4 days this year
The snow events we are getting are ALL 8+ inches with some 20 inches and hours of sleet and ice
Customers are expecting the same level of service in the condo market.......Or in the commercial market (big box) are more than happy to sacrifice some service for the huge cost reduction.

And the idea of a price increase is out of the question.
Year after year, when I went to renew contracts, they all involved LOWERING the price to resign. If you included an increase they would laugh at you.

And Ill toot my own horn here and sound a little arrogant.......But my snow work was far better than my competitors. I lived and breathed the snow business. In June I was already 100% into snow planning. 

Years ago that meant something and mattered.

Now. It doesnt. Yes, you can point out exceptions but Im not talking exceptions.

The business model is moving toward more service....less money.....And its a trend that only accelerates as the unemployment rate goes up, and established contractors struggle to keep a client base and stay afloat.

Its just burned me out.

To spend 3/4 of a year like an Army general planning, buying, and catering to customers.......So when it snows I kick ass......Only to see in the end.....The time and effort that I put into it has not one penny of value over a guy that shows up with a pickup and his 2 kids in November and offers a low price.

When I see contracts that I used to have that to me appear to be disasters. They are in a condition that would never have been tolerated. Contracts that were so picky they were still calling me for a snowball falling off a roof 3 days later. To see properties like this that barely look like anyone serviced at all.........Only to find out that the customer is "perfectly happy" with the service and doesn't see a problem.

There is only so much cost cutting and volume work that you can do.

There are ways to make money in this business. And I have thought about them. But it would involve essentially starting over.
I got out of residential when the pricing was going below $200 a MONTH. Guys up north like Niege are charging that for an entire season and using $80,000 tractors.

Now dont take that for a second as a knock. I envy his business and think its awesome and he really knows his stuff. 

The residential system would work around here. But mentally, I just dont have the drive to start that all over. I imagine as soon as I started doing that for $300 a season, a year later there would be 20 guys with tractors at $200. 

Ok...Now Im just ranting.

Spending all day on the phone in the office trying to get customers to pay you on one line, and the other line ringing all day with people looking for me to pay them will do that to ya.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Sorry to here about your troubles and you leaving the business, I dream of that day. The problems you list are everyones problems these days. Seasonal contracts IMO are a gamble, I've always said that. I have never, nor will I ever choose to take those contracts on. Of course I still fight the price issues every year, as does everyone.
I hope you're happy doing whatever it is you choose to do next. :salute:


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## Pinky Demon (Jan 6, 2010)

I can't help but to agree with you ProCut. Things are going downward, fast. There are a few triumphs here and there, but the rewards are so short lived. I wish you sucess in whatever you chose to do next.


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## 18lmslcsr (Jan 20, 2007)

I too can sympathize with the OP.

I normally do not post all that much but felt compelled to add a thought or two.

This is the 11 yr.I been fortunate (aka blessed) to do this and it is getting more and more aggrevating. Cutting corners,,,, 
Cheaping services....
Impractical wants....
High cost of business....
Cold, long hours....
Equipment cost on runway to Pluto....

To even get enough capital to purchase a new blade, trailer, walk behind is getting (gotten) really tough.

Alas, I keep doing the service because the rest of the economy is as bad or worse.

I'm just filled with gratitude I'm able to even put food on the table.


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## 18lmslcsr (Jan 20, 2007)

That in the end is all that really counts. Being able to eat and have a place to rest my head.

C.


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## Jacobsmovinsnow (Jan 12, 2011)

10 years without a rate increase is about 8 years too much.


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## jrodgers (Feb 14, 2001)

Just imagine sitting in your house when there is snow forcast. Hunkering down to hang out and watch the snow fall. Watch a couple movies, take a nap, drink a beer, all while everybody is stressing out about plows now working this broke that broke, guys not showing up, blah blah blah. I would love to just enjoy snow fall for once. FOR ONCE!!! Good luck. Might be my last year too. 22 yrs and I'm tired.....


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## Jacobsmovinsnow (Jan 12, 2011)

jrodgers;1238365 said:


> Just imagine sitting in your house when there is snow forcast. Hunkering down to hang out and watch the snow fall. Watch a couple movies, take a nap, drink a beer, all while everybody is stressing out about plows now working this broke that broke, guys not showing up, blah blah blah. I would love to just enjoy snow fall for once. FOR ONCE!!! Good luck. Might be my last year too. 22 yrs and I'm tired.....


tymusicln all those years if ya liked it more than hated it , you will miss it when you quit.I quit after 22 years for one season, back in it again however only took back customers and driveways, lots that suited my way of doing business. Much more enjoy able. Also hired drivers to fit the job, not vice versa.


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## albhb3 (Dec 18, 2007)

heck you should see the truckin industry it makes the green industry look like kings


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## Jacobsmovinsnow (Jan 12, 2011)

albhb3;1238383 said:


> heck you should see the truckin industry it makes the green industry look like kings


 Yes when your trying to make money heading out from home and someone takes the load on a backhaul just to get back to base.


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## V_Scapes (Jan 1, 2011)

jrodgers;1238365 said:


> Just imagine sitting in your house when there is snow forcast. Hunkering down to hang out and watch the snow fall. Watch a couple movies, take a nap, drink a beer, all while everybody is stressing out about plows now working this broke that broke, guys not showing up, blah blah blah. I would love to just enjoy snow fall for once. FOR ONCE!!! Good luck. Might be my last year too. 22 yrs and I'm tired.....


Hahaha! I agree. Im sure theres a few guys that would like to punch me in the face for what im about to say but im only 22, ive been doing snow for only about 4 years. me and a few of my friends who plow talk about this, for once itd be fun to just have fun in the snow, like rip the quads on the roads instead of stressing and waiting around all day and night to go out to plow. cant complain though december and january made me alot of cash.


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## ICE CREAM MAN (Dec 15, 2001)

I here all you guys. Plowing for 18 years has taken a toll, but I still love it. I do miss playing with my kids though, they want to go sledding I want to go to bed. I have been lucky with what I am doing, I have a few private accounts that are small and plow roads for a Town. The money is decent $75 per hour plus a few other small perks. I know I could have always made more chassing down accounts, but as I have seen and heard from peers chassing the money has been ridiculous this past year. So I am thankfull for staying whith what I got.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Plowing I enjoy. Its the business of plowing I can't stand. When I move, I'm done with the snow business. If all I had to worry about is actual plowing, I could do that all day.


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## Jacobsmovinsnow (Jan 12, 2011)

procut1;1238546 said:


> Plowing I enjoy. Its the business of plowing I can't stand. When I move, I'm done with the snow business. If all I had to worry about is actual plowing, I could do that all day.


Sounds like you will make a good employee, immigrating to Canada??????????????tymusic


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

I agree with the OP, though the prices that have been mentioned have been the norm around here since before I started taking this over from my dad. though we dont shovel at all, strictly plow at 2", unless they pay extra for it and we have maybe 10 customers out of 200 that do.

ive lost a couple clients to $150 seasonal prices. That I just dont understand. To make money at those kinds of rates you need ultra efficient equipment to turn out volumes of clients, but these are just joe schmoes with older trucks. 

Since taking over the snow side a few years ago i have heavily invested in more efficient equipment that allows us to do more in less time. Thats the only way to stay afloat in this market of stagnant or declining prices. 

I have been seeking out the customers that are willing to pay for above and beyond service. I won a 62 unit HOA contract being the 2nd highest bidder b/c of what I was bringing to the table; excellent references, top notch service and a unique approach to their particular situation.

my next move will be introducing the tractor setups like Neige and others use, most efficient driveway setup out there.

Honestly, I often dread snow forecasts, i like sleep. warm comforters, a soft bed, whats not to like?


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

Jacobsmovinsnow;1238560 said:


> Sounds like you will make a good employee, immigrating to Canada??????????????tymusic


If you do not want to go to that much snow, you could come our way instead!!!!


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## AA+ Landscaping (Nov 12, 2008)

I just can't get how they get paid for such poor quality of work???????


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

procut1;1238546 said:


> Plowing I enjoy. Its the business of plowing I can't stand. When I move, I'm done with the snow business. If all I had to worry about is actual plowing, I could do that all day.


Yup!.....Maybe not ALL day.


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

albhb3;1238383 said:


> heck you should see the truckin industry it makes the green industry look like kings


lol if they only had a clue about truckin.

But i do agree wit the OP. Seems like every line of work is going down hill fast and trucking is leading the way.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

AA+ Landscaping;1238660 said:


> I just can't get how they get paid for such poor quality of work???????


Look at it this way. If you buy a brand new truck off the lot you wont tolerate any problems with it and if something is wrong with it in the first few thousand miles you're going to be pissed and want it taken care of.

If instead of paying 30 grand for a new truck. You pay 5000 and for the most part that truck does the job. You will tolerate things with the 5000 truck that you wouldn't with the 30000 truck.


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## cj7plowing (Feb 7, 2009)

been plowing for 16 years and almost burned out from the lowballers to rising cost to broken stuff, to getting blizzards with 30" of snow in 8 hours. The first storm of the season shaved years off my life. I laugh about it now because a foot of snow is a joke now. Collecting is now the problem as people are conviently forgetting to pay their bills. Aside from having to worry everytime it snows and being married to NJ for the winter, I would be nice for once to being laughing when we have a blizzard, noreaster, snowmageddon, snow a cane , snowapacolips and what ever else mother nature throws at us. Still after 16 years I am close to being burned out.


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

Procut, As you know, I'm from your neck of the woods. I ended up moving down to VA late this summer and this is for me the first year not plowing (i got out just in time, before this hell of a winter).

The following might be long winded but trust me it will do the same to you;

If you move anywhere where there is still some snow (like VA), It is the strangest feeling the first time it snows, you see it falling before you go to bed, you automatically wake up every half hour because your body is telling you something is wrong, you should n'tbe sleeping, you'll find yourself standing in the middle of your new driveway in the middle of the night because you really can't sleep, you'll be looking at your new pick-up truck and wondering if you should put a plow on that truck because you can't believe you haven't seen a plow truck go by in a half hour. The next day you drive around and you can't believe that the roads are this this crappy and you stop at a local shopping center, boy that looks like crap, I must be able to make a fortune here with my NY experience, I can do a much better job then this!! So you start doing research as to what the local pricing is..... After you find that out, you will remember why you got out of the business to begin with and you will sleep much better during the next snow event...

I do still miss plowing a little, I actually got to help out my brother inlaw for a few hours not to long ago during a visit to NY, it was just enough to scratch my itch, and then I went back home to VA!

Best of luck to you in your future endeavors!Thumbs Up


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Hey Jordy

I actually missed the first storm in 15 years last week when I was in tennessee. I still kept in contact by phone and they pulled it off pretty good.

Everyone is telling me the same thing about TN. They get an inch of snow and the state is paralyzed and nobody knows what to do. Theyre all telling me I could make a fortune, especially since Im moving there with a half dozen plow trucks.

Im hoping I dont start having those ideas. Ill tell you what I would do. I would sub the trucks out hourly if I got a GOOD price. But as far as being a snow contractor again. No way

Ill be going back and forth to TN over the next couple months. How far are you off the I-81 corridor?


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

I'm about 40 min east of 81, between Culpeper, VA and Fredricksburg, VA. Let me know if you need a place to sleep on your way up or down someday...

I'm not saying I will never go back into the snow business but I'm not going to put my self in the position that I need it anymore for sure!!

What gives the price pressure away most around here is that most contractor are spreading straight sand, I couldn't get away with using ANY sand in NY, it had to be straight salt or the tenant store would have a fit... but an hour after the snow my lots would be clean black top, around here 2 days after the storm the lots are covered with snow with ice underneath... (not trying to knock on any of our VA members on this site)

But I have to say, I got out of the landscape industry all together, it's not just snow that is under tremendous price pressure, landscape maintenance and landscape construction is no better in my eyes...


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

18lmslcsr;1238330 said:


> That in the end is all that really counts. Being able to eat and have a place to rest my head.
> 
> C.


As basic needs go this couldn't be more true. And I can't comment on the local economy or job market. I've been through some times in life where I might have made a similar comment.

BUT-

I do not believe for a minute that the snow portion of business is worth this kind of beleif. If I'm going to put my guys and myself and my family through everything that winter serfvices requires I won't do it for only food on the table or a place to rest my head. Loss of sleep, family time, constant headaches of varied degress while performing services, break downs which get more and more expensive, the beating the fleet takes, did I mention the lost family time thing?? No matter the money we make over the winter theres two sides to this one, the wifes side and the personal side.

I won't do this for peanuts.............


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

forestfireguy;1240070 said:


> As basic needs go this couldn't be more true. And I can't comment on the local economy or job market. I've been through some times in life where I might have made a similar comment.
> 
> BUT-
> 
> ...


Youre 100%.

YOU wont do it for peanuts.

But the problem is every year, you are bidding against more and more guys who WILL do it for peanuts.

As long as you can hang on to your jobs, youre ok. But the industry is moving the other direction rapidly.

Property managers are under pressure to cut costs. No amount of reputation and good service will matter when their boss tells them "Cut the snow cost by 25%"


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

I don't want to state the obvious. 

High Unemployment
High Taxes
High Inflation


All these are true today and do not help all private sector jobs or business including service business like snow plowing! ussmileyflag Only going to get worse before it gets better.


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## Harold Finch (Jan 1, 2011)

Pro cut.. good luck with your new ventures.
Ed.. I wouldnt do it for peanuts, correctly. Procut makes excellent point, plenty of guys will do a half ass, next day cause i am sleeping, dont call at night we wont be there,who cares if ice just formed in your lot i am sleeping job. Now that kills guys like us. And financially its rough out there because of those guys. 

I see it going two ways.. one, people spend less and require less service and you better adapt.. highly unlikely in the long run.
two, those clients take on a few slip and falls, calls from their members who can not get out of their driveways, calls from managers that have customers who cant make it through the parking lot with a cart full of goods and will come back and understand the value you bring to them.

Educate your clients! I believe it is the best way to secure your service. Most people, average propoerty managers, do not understand what is involved and what the difference is. But they do understand dollars and a lower number always looks better. These same people buy water for a $1 bottle but ***** about fuel being $3/gallon. It takes a lot to show them the value of their dollar is better with you. I can buy a cheeseburger at mcdonalds for $8 now and risk getting sick or a healthy home-cooked meal that wont kill my stomach for $15... where is the value? Teach your clients what can happen with the "low guy" and his service..they will come back to you if you stay steady/focussed.


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## gman2310 (Sep 25, 2004)

The scary part is too is the fact that they want to cut corners, they dont want salt when they do need it. The association wants more control of what happens and when you can plow or when you cant plow. The problem is the insurance and lawyers. You know someone is gonna go outside and slip and fall and that lawyer is gonna be waiting outside the emergency room during blizzards. Just like you hear the commercials on tv. So you feel obligated to just throw done that extra salt as your own personal insurance. Rates go down, business expenses go up. When does it balance out


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

procut1, I know several veterans that feel the same way, I have a mentor that spends his winters in Cuba, plowed since he was 15. He's 66 and quit 2 years ago. When he comes back in mid March he always uses my spare truck to plow 1 or 2 storms from his yard and says everytime "Couldn't friggin wait to be done!!!." We all do what we have too to make ends meet... I'm still in a position where snow is a money maker, I couldn't imagine being on call at a moments notice if it weren't and I certainly wouldn't be.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

I'm excited to see what its like not to care if it snows. Well, I'm moving where I wont see much anyway. But I look forward to next year watching my northeast friends whining on Facebook about the snow. Of course ill bet next year will be 50 degrees in new York all winter just to stick it up my ass


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## NorthwestPlower1 (Feb 4, 2001)

Procut,

How can you not have a cap on your contract? My seasonal contracts have a cap then it goes to T&M. I would never do that. Anyways best of luck to you. You will miss it.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Update: still don't miss the snow business. But would like to run a plow again when I visit up north. 

Tennessee is clueless how to deal with any frozen precipitation. A half inch paralyzes us for days. I stay home.

And after getting my ass kicked with seasonals my last few years in NY. I dont think it snowed once the year I moved.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Update...my mentor died in 2016. Get out as soon as you can if you don’t enjoy it...


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