# Looking for Partner in NJ for 3 Walmart Lots



## UniqueTouch

If interested pm me thanks


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## Flcnj

UniqueTouch said:


> If interested pm me thanks


Where are they located. I was invited to bid on two and walked away due to them putting a 35,000 cap on snow services.


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## ponyboy

Good luck same here was offered $38,000 told them it's needs to be $60,000 
Did u sign them yet 
What equipment u running to Handel them or u trying to get them


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## xgiovannix12

35,000? what are they smoking


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## Flcnj

ponyboy said:


> Good luck same here was offered $38,000 told them it's needs to be $60,000
> Did u sign them yet
> What equipment u running to Handel them or u trying to get them


I told them the same thing. I did not take on the job but they always seem to find someone to work that cheap.


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## Defcon 5

Are these lots direct with Walmart or through a NSP?


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## Mark Oomkes

The interweb is a great place to find a partner...so I'm told.


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## UniqueTouch

I told them 40k for for each one for the season , total of 18 acres between the three. I don't know if that's a good price or not lol I just threw it out there. They are ready to sign on the dotted line. Unfortunately I just got bad news from insurance company and now how to find another carrier and the price is through the roof. so hopefully I can find a real company that wants them and can let me work. I just really just wanna work a lot of hours when it snows and maybe throw me a little something. Plus I can get whoever some other big chain stores if interested.


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## John_DeereGreen

"I don't know if that's a good price or not lol I just threw it out there"


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## UniqueTouch

lol you like that? lol


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## John_DeereGreen

No. Actually I don't.

That's half the problem with this industry.


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## Broncslefty7

walmart here went for 23k last season


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## Mark Oomkes




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## John_DeereGreen

I see my post was edited. Oops.


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## Mark Oomkes

Mark Oomkes said:


>


Forgot to add:


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## Randall Ave

Mark Oomkes said:


>


You want a beer with that?


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## Randall Ave

What were you quoted for insurance, what equipment do you have, do you have a place to store bulk salt, how many employees do you have?


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## Mark Oomkes

Randall Ave said:


> You want a beer with that?


I need 1 or 24. I'm going to be 100% grey by the time I'm 50.


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## Mark Oomkes

Randall Ave said:


> What were you quoted for insurance, what equipment do you have, do you have a place to store bulk salt, how many employees do you have?


Are any of those questions relevant or important?


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## Randall Ave

Mark Oomkes said:


> Are any of those questions relevant or important?


Well if I was figuring out what to charge.


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## Randall Ave

Mark Oomkes said:


> I need 1 or 24. I'm going to be 100% grey by the time I'm 50.


50, I remember 50. I think it's Grandma night at the strip club around the corner. Since there all my age, I'll stop in. Now let's keep the train on the tracks here.


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## Freshwater

Couple questions...
If you quoted them 40k, and you find a REAL company that wants you to pay them 50k to handle it, now what?
See you can't do it, and the real company doesn't need your help to get it done, now what?
So really all you've accomplished is losing your snow ins, for the right to throw a big number at Wal-Mart. 
Do you believe your moving your company forward or backward?


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## Mark Oomkes

Randall Ave said:


> Well if I was figuring out what to charge.


Watt??????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## Flcnj

Freshwater said:


> Couple questions...
> If you quoted them 40k, and you find a REAL company that wants you to pay them 50k to handle it, now what?
> See you can't do it, and the real company doesn't need your help to get it done, now what?
> So really all you've accomplished is losing your snow ins, for the right to throw a big number at Wal-Mart.
> Do you believe your moving your company forward or backward?


A real company will run from this not walk away. Obviously he has no idea how to bid a project like this nor does he have the equipment to do it. I feel bad for the guy but it is people like him who have ruined the snow industry.


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## Flcnj

Defcon 5 said:


> Are these lots direct with Walmart or through a NSP?


I was dealing with corporate


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## ponyboy

OP
Few years back u asked for a mentor I offered advise u never took me up
This post really shows u r not even close to being ready for commercial work
U want a lot of work sub for me or some one closer to u
But trying to do a huge lot like this isn't close to start
U can lose everything at one of these sites
Even if u do it no guarantee u get paid in full
Who has it by you


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## MajorDave

UniqueTouch...you obviously have realized that you have stumbled into the "Plowsite ***-on-you zone." Its where no one helps you, make one sentence statements, post emojis, pad their post count, and generally just make you feel like crap.

You were taken by a National Service Provider. They gain large contracts throughout the country and act as a clearing house or like a broker. They find people who will accept it for about half of what they paid. They have no equipment (usually), and just sell these contracts for unreasonably low prices and make you accept the liability. We, as an industry, are trying to push back and not accept these.

Pony boy offers you some good advice. Very pointed, but good. Work, work, and learn the industry.

If he is going to mentor you, take him up on it.

You obviously are learning- no worries - just learn in the right arena. Work for a local and reputable company. Then build your own years down the road. You have no business or experience to accept this size job. You "got suckered" into it...and they make you take on the insurance liability as you experienced.

Learn from the organizations like SIMA and ASCA and apply it - I'm learning daily. Step back for now and good luck.


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## 1olddogtwo

MajorDave said:


> UniqueTouch...you obviously have realized that you have stumbled into the "Plowsite sh*t-on-you zone." Its where no one helps you, make one sentence statements, post emojis, pad they post count, and generally just make you feel like crap.


Did you really just say that....no one tried to help, come on man. Every post about Walmart pretty much describes what he has just done..... And now you're asking for pity for him..... He just gave the industry a black eye.

How did they even consider your bid without even looking at your insurance?


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## MajorDave

I did just say that - actually very clearly. If we help him so he knows what is happening, maybe he will not give the industry a black eye again, and possibly even stop his buddy from doing it down the road if he is educated. And then - maybe he will jump in with PonyBoy and learn with his generous offer. No pity - just some offered help.


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## ponyboy

I've said it my insurance company won't add any national as an additional insured too much liability


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## Mike_PS

we can offer assistance, opinions, facts, etc. but no need to condemn the guy or make a joke of the discussion 

thanks


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## ponyboy

I don't know it all been doing this for only 27 years been almost bankrupt I do jus over 2 mill a year between landscape and snow
I've learned a lot over time 
Also I say we don't get a lot of snow in our area like you real guys do but our area has higest amount of law suits in the nation 
So like my agent said to me a big account can cost u big also so protect your self with a good contract & better work and if you aren't making good money don't do it 
I've seen my friends snow insurance go from $2000 year to over $40,000 a year now 
That's a lot of money 
Lawns and landscape honestly not much to worry about snow can literally cost your your business everything if you are not covered properly 
If something sounds to good it usually is 
What made a huge company call u? Kinda like those annoying sales call we all get and hang up on 
That's what u should do to 99% of national companies


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## LapeerLandscape

I have one very good piece of advice. Do you know what the worst kind of ship is? A partnership.


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## 1olddogtwo

LapeerLandscape said:


> I have one very good piece of advice. Do you know what the worst kind of ship is? A partnership.


Exactly.

OP, my intend wasn't to harm you, disrespect you, or anything of the nature. Now you are bent over a snowpile trying to dig your way out..... let us help.....did you sign a contract with them?


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## Randall Ave

What the OP should do, in my opinion. At this point get work he can do with the equipment he has. Grow according, then go for the bigger jobs, but not thru the Nationals.


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## Randall Ave

1olddogtwo said:


> Exactly.
> 
> OP, my intend wasn't to harm you, disrespect you, or anything of the nature. Now you are bent over a snowpile trying to dig your way out..... let us help.....did you sign a contract with them?


Per his post, he didn't have his insurance secured yet. I don't think they would have finalized anything yet.


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## JMHConstruction

UniqueTouch said:


> They are ready to sign on the dotted line.


So you have not signed anything correct?? As others have blatantly repeated, it's a bit much for you, and you probably won't find someone to take it. You should just tell the company that you cannot get coverage, and will be declining the opportunity. Easy as that, and you don't have to tell them you made a huge mistake...


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## 1olddogtwo

Randall Ave said:


> Per his post, he didn't have his insurance secured yet. I don't think they would have finalized anything yet.


My bad, I glazed over the part about the dotted line.... Perhaps I was in awe of the rest of the post.


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## Dogplow Dodge

1olddogtwo said:


> My bad, I glazed over the part about the dotted line.... Perhaps I was in awe of the rest of the post.


Only thing I can add here is how glad I am seeing you posting again on plowsite.

Old dog welcome
Welcome..

(said it twice for the " two " in your name)


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## Freshwater

Op you said your looking for lots of hours, and make a little something while doing it. Ponyboy's offer is your answer. You'll get a lot of hours and make a lot of money doing it. Bottom line is this industry needs more guys/gals who want to work a lot of hours and make a good money,.theres just a right way to go about things.


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## Broncslefty7

im sure he can pull it off, if we leases a loader and already has a truck. walmarts arnt that big.... if he can lease a loader, buy a pusher and find someone with some EXP to run the job and loader he will be fine. find someone that knows a thing or two and pay them good money, youll either make it or not. but always be ready to lose money doing snow because you never know...

i got lucky a few years back and got a decent sized account. that year i struggled doing it with two trucks. i signed everything around that property for really good money, now i run 4 trucks, 2 skids, and am now shopping for a loader. lessons in snow are hard and expensive but he will figure it out. slow growth is the key though i think. i was looking at 2-3 more larger ones this year but A. i dont have the people and b. the equipment to do them. maybe next year.

just stay away from NSP's, i know plenty of people that wont work for NSP's, they make plenty of money and it allows you to grow at your own pace. you start working for NSP's who generally have larger accounts, then your stuck with a large property, slim margins, and high demand. be careful with that. Perfect your operation first.


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## Mark Oomkes

MajorDave said:


> UniqueTouch...you obviously have realized that you have stumbled into the "Plowsite ***-on-you zone." Its where no one helps you, make one sentence statements, post emojis, pad their post count, and generally just make you feel like crap.


Yes, I'm guilty as charged. Not sure what else one can expect after years and years and years of guys coming on here and saying the same thing. It gets mildly frustrating, to say the least.

You started a thread about how NSP's are ruining the industry and campaigning to use local. But the OP is no better than a NSP when it comes right down to it. He throws a number oot that he has no idea if it's high or low. Being in Jersey, it's probably low. Being around me, it's probably too high.

You make valid points, but for many of us who are "regulars", and especially those that don't work with NSP's by choice, the OP is our worst problem. After 2 years of hard winters, prices started returning to where they were 15 years ago. Almost. We had one light winter, everyone started lowering prices again. 2 light winters and prices suck. Why?

Isn't the real solution to NSP's to educate the contractor on how to run a business profitably and not sell one's soul just to get the next big contract? We are all guilty of it, but I am remaining firm in my pricing this year especially. I can't find enough help, so if I don't get the work at the price I need, I don't want it. If contractor's are educated that it takes $XXX.XX to clear a lot no matter who is contracting it, that by adding a middleman (NSP) someone is going to come out on the short end...and ultimately it will be the contractor. The customer knows what service they can receive by paying $XXX.XX and the educated contractor knows that's what he has to charge. Add a third person in there and how do they make money? Not by charging the customer more.

I know, there will always be some ignorant contractor that will work for the NSP's at the lowest price they can get, but there are others who have negotiated with them and get the pricing they need. Those are educated contractors and they are not the ones pitching a fit about NSP's. Which brings us back to the lowest common denominator...the uneducated contractor. Which, whether you like it or not, is what the OP is. And he didn't ask for help determining if his prices were realistic, just for contractors to help him perform the work even though he doesn't know if the numbers are good.

The uneducated contractor is the problem...not the NSP. Not SIMA doing nothing about NSPs.

Say what you will, but I have shown time and again I am willing to help someone who is willing to listen. I am also willing to post emojis and one liners and pad my post count to those who aren't willing to listen and learn.


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## Mark Oomkes

Broncslefty7 said:


> im sure he can pull it off, if we leases a loader and already has a truck.


Leasing a loader around here starts at $3500ish a month. I'm guessing it's much higher in Jersey. For 4 months, that's $14k. Then he needs a pusher. And someone to run it. And insurance on it. And fuel. And salt. And a shoveler. And a sidewalk salt. And a truck with plows. And another operator. And profit. And overhead recovery.

But he can't even get liability insurance AFTER he found out he might be able to get the work. So how is he going to lease a loader if he can't even afford liability insurance?


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## Broncslefty7

I must have missed that part. I keep reading all this insurance stuff. Rite in my policy it says as long as snow revenue isn’t 20% of your annual revenue it’s covered. There is no snow in exclusions and the insurance company has written a letter stating Snow is covered. We do about 1.8 in revenue and 250k in snow so it’s still covered. I’m assuming landscapers may be more leveled out with the seasonal revenues? What is snow insurance costing you guys?


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## Broncslefty7

I’ll throw some gas on this fire.

Seasonal contracts are the problem.... get paid for the work you do, simple as that. I got my first seasonal contract this year. Capped it at 60” and salt is extra.


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## 1olddogtwo

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes, I'm guilty as charged. Not sure what else one can expect after years and years and years of guys coming on here and saying the same thing. It gets mildly frustrating, to say the least.
> 
> You started a thread about how NSP's are ruining the industry and campaigning to use local. But the OP is no better than a NSP when it comes right down to it. He throws a number oot that he has no idea if it's high or low. Being in Jersey, it's probably low. Being around me, it's probably too high.
> 
> You make valid points, but for many of us who are "regulars", and especially those that don't work with NSP's by choice, the OP is our worst problem. After 2 years of hard winters, prices started returning to where they were 15 years ago. Almost. We had one light winter, everyone started lowering prices again. 2 light winters and prices suck. Why?
> 
> Isn't the real solution to NSP's to educate the contractor on how to run a business profitably and not sell one's soul just to get the next big contract? We are all guilty of it, but I am remaining firm in my pricing this year especially. I can't find enough help, so if I don't get the work at the price I need, I don't want it. If contractor's are educated that it takes $XXX.XX to clear a lot no matter who is contracting it, that by adding a middleman (NSP) someone is going to come out on the short end...and ultimately it will be the contractor. The customer knows what service they can receive by paying $XXX.XX and the educated contractor knows that's what he has to charge. Add a third person in there and how do they make money? Not by charging the customer more.
> 
> I know, there will always be some ignorant contractor that will work for the NSP's at the lowest price they can get, but there are others who have negotiated with them and get the pricing they need. Those are educated contractors and they are not the ones pitching a fit about NSP's. Which brings us back to the lowest common denominator...the uneducated contractor. Which, whether you like it or not, is what the OP is. And he didn't ask for help determining if his prices were realistic, just for contractors to help him perform the work even though he doesn't know if the numbers are good.
> 
> The uneducated contractor is the problem...not the NSP. Not SIMA doing nothing about NSPs.
> 
> Say what you will, but I have shown time and again I am willing to help someone who is willing to listen. I am also willing to post emojis and one liners and pad my post count to those who aren't willing to listen and learn.


Very well said Mark.

Unfortunately it's a repetitive cycle.


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## 1olddogtwo

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Only thing I can add here is how glad I am seeing you posting again on plowsite.
> 
> Old dog welcome
> Welcome..
> 
> (said it twice for the " two " in your name)


Thank you, been busy dealing with life here in the south..... Looks like I may have another tropical storm to deal with over the weekend in FL.


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## John_DeereGreen

Leasing a loader is all fine and great, if your prices are on par with where they should be to begin with.



Broncslefty7 said:


> I'll throw some gas on this fire.
> 
> Seasonal contracts are the problem.... get paid for the work you do, simple as that. I got my first seasonal contract this year. Capped it at 60" and salt is extra.


I wouldn't plow snow if I didn't have some seasonal contracts.

Not interested in playing the snow lottery.


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## ponyboy

I have both 
If a machine stays in site there is a charge 
For machine plus a discounted hourly rate


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## Freshwater

I


Broncslefty7 said:


> I'll throw some gas on this fire.
> 
> Seasonal contracts are the problem.... get paid for the work you do, simple as that. I got my first seasonal contract this year. Capped it at 60" and salt is extra.





Broncslefty7 said:


> I'll throw some gas on this fire.
> 
> Seasonal contracts are the problem.... get paid for the work you do, simple as that. I got my first seasonal contract this year. Capped it at 60" and salt is extra.


I disagree completely... I know the numbers and averages of my area, they've been pretty accurate here for decades, even with the oddball winters we've been having. The contracts balance out every 3-5 years, and I get paid for the work I do simple as that. Both the customer and I get to budget off of them. Having said that I'd never have only one or the other, because in good winters my per push really can be a homerun.


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## Mark Oomkes

Freshwater said:


> I
> 
> I disagree completely... I know the numbers and averages of my area, they've been pretty accurate here for decades, even with the oddball winters we've been having. The contracts balance out every 3-5 years, and I get paid for the work I do simple as that. Both the customer and I get to budget off of them. Having said that I'd never have only one or the other, because in good winters my per push really can be a homerun.


I was always of the opinion that caps were unnecessary until '13-'14. Not only was there a massively abnormal amount of snow, it was cold. So cold that in the past we would burn 3/4" with salt, but that year it was so cold we had to plow it. This was coupled with the salt shortage and the massive increase in salt pricing which had only happened in late winter of '08.

'14-'15 was average but again extremely cold. Then 2 light years. I need to cover myself and I will. I am not trying to get rich off my charges after we hit our cap.

BTW, IMO, placing a cap on inches makes no sense. We are selling time, not inches. Early season we can have snowfalls of a couple inches that melt on contact with pavement that we don't have to address, why would I penalize my customers for snow we didn't have to plow or salt?


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## Defcon 5

Don't you remember that seminar we went to that your hero was speaking??....What was it called....Cap-Floor or something like that


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Don't you remember that seminar we went to that your hero was speaking??....What was it called....Cap-Floor or something like that


I dew and it wuz...and if you will recall, I said the same thing then...using inches makes no sense.


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> I dew and it wuz...and if you will recall, I said the same thing then...using inches makes no sense.


I don't recall that...


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> I don't recall that...


Understood


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## Freshwater

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was always of the opinion that caps were unnecessary until '13-'14. Not only was there a massively abnormal amount of snow, it was cold. So cold that in the past we would burn 3/4" with salt, but that year it was so cold we had to plow it. This was coupled with the salt shortage and the massive increase in salt pricing which had only happened in late winter of '08.
> 
> '14-'15 was average but again extremely cold. Then 2 light years. I need to cover myself and I will. I am not trying to get rich off my charges after we hit our cap.
> 
> BTW, IMO, placing a cap on inches makes no sense. We are selling time, not inches. Early season we can have snowfalls of a couple inches that melt on contact with pavement that we don't have to address, why would I penalize my customers for snow we didn't have to plow or salt?


I agree Mark, I go by times per service not inches. For me my numbers are balanced over the last 8yrs. These last 2 years balanced the huge winter in 14?. I'm not saying this would work in grand rapids, or even ct where broncslefty is. For me in my area this has been working great, I've been very happy.


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## Luther

Mark Oomkes said:


> BTW, IMO, placing a cap on inches makes no sense. We are selling time, not inches. Early season we can have snowfalls of a couple inches that melt on contact with pavement that we don't have to address, why would I penalize my customers for snow we didn't have to plow or salt?


A small site may only take 15 minutes to plow, and 2-3 minutes to blow down 300-400lbs of salt.

We are not selling time...we are selling value.


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## Mark Oomkes

Luther said:


> A small site may only take 15 minutes to plow, and 2-3 minutes to blow down 300-400lbs of salt.
> 
> We are not selling time...we are selling value.


That's 15 minutes of your life you won't get back. 15 minutes that could be spent on a larger project.

Our time has value. So does the customer's and that's why he hires us...because his time is more valuable doing what he does best, which isn't plowing.


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## Defcon 5

Don't we do Both???....Time and Value??


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## Freshwater

Defcon 5 said:


> Don't we do Both???....Time and Value??


I think yes we do. That 15 min lot with 400# of salt would be below my min charge for both plowing and salting. So essentially I'm making 3-4 times my normal rates. I love those lots.


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Don't we do Both???....Time and Value??


Yes, because our time is valuable.


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## Luther

Freshwater said:


> I think yes we do. That 15 min lot with 400# of salt would be below my min charge for both plowing and salting. So essentially I'm making 3-4 times my normal rates. I love those lots.


Here we go...he get's it.

Our margins are through the roof on the small sites. Even though the profit dollars are much greater on the larger sites, they're not the same margins as the smaller sites.


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## Broncslefty7

agreed. i have 4 of those rite next to each other, its legit


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## Mark Oomkes

Luther said:


> Here we go...he get's it.
> 
> Our margins are through the roof on the small sites. Even though the profit dollars are much greater on the larger sites, they're not the same margins as the smaller sites.


Never said they weren't.

We have a limited amount of time to perform our services before the customer gets ticked and cancels our service.

That means we have time left but no value. The value is arbitrary, time is 15 minutes no matter what the value is.


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## Luther

Time has different value from site to site, and job to job. If all time were equal we would be making far less money for doing the same work.


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## Luther

There would also be jobs I would never get if I put the same high value of time that we realize on the smaller sites.


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## Mark Oomkes

You know Rick Kier, don't you Plow Lord?


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## JMHConstruction

So Mark, with your way of thinking, do you charge every job you have by the hour? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Or are you talking about cutting your seasonal off after X number of pushes, and not inches? Please explain this to me a little better


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## Arrowbrook99

John_DeereGreen said:


> "I don't know if that's a good price or not lol I just threw it out there"


This guy is funny.


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## Mark Oomkes

Everyone has an hourly rate. The only thing by the hour is stacking or removal.

My price is based on X number of trips to that property over a normal season. Or, the amount of time that customer has bought from me. Once that time has been used, they pay for more time.

Value to a customer can change, time can't.


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## Mark Oomkes

We can have 10" of snow that melts without me or anyone else plowing or salting it, why should someone pay for time that wasn't used?

I know, this falls apart with seasonal, except we have to cover our minimum costs in running a business to provide services. That's why Grandview loved it when it didn't snow.


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## MajorDave

Mark Oomkes said:


> Yes, I'm guilty as charged. Not sure what else one can expect after years and years and years of guys coming on here and saying the same thing. It gets mildly frustrating, to say the least.
> 
> You started a thread about how NSP's are ruining the industry and campaigning to use local. But the OP is no better than a NSP when it comes right down to it. He throws a number oot that he has no idea if it's high or low. Being in Jersey, it's probably low. Being around me, it's probably too high.
> 
> You make valid points, but for many of us who are "regulars", and especially those that don't work with NSP's by choice, the OP is our worst problem. After 2 years of hard winters, prices started returning to where they were 15 years ago. Almost. We had one light winter, everyone started lowering prices again. 2 light winters and prices suck. Why?
> 
> Isn't the real solution to NSP's to educate the contractor on how to run a business profitably and not sell one's soul just to get the next big contract? We are all guilty of it, but I am remaining firm in my pricing this year especially. I can't find enough help, so if I don't get the work at the price I need, I don't want it. If contractor's are educated that it takes $XXX.XX to clear a lot no matter who is contracting it, that by adding a middleman (NSP) someone is going to come out on the short end...and ultimately it will be the contractor. The customer knows what service they can receive by paying $XXX.XX and the educated contractor knows that's what he has to charge. Add a third person in there and how do they make money? Not by charging the customer more.
> 
> I know, there will always be some ignorant contractor that will work for the NSP's at the lowest price they can get, but there are others who have negotiated with them and get the pricing they need. Those are educated contractors and they are not the ones pitching a fit about NSP's. Which brings us back to the lowest common denominator...the uneducated contractor. Which, whether you like it or not, is what the OP is. And he didn't ask for help determining if his prices were realistic, just for contractors to help him perform the work even though he doesn't know if the numbers are good.
> 
> The uneducated contractor is the problem...not the NSP. Not SIMA doing nothing about NSPs.
> 
> Say what you will, but I have shown time and again I am willing to help someone who is willing to listen. I am also willing to post emojis and one liners and pad my post count to those who aren't willing to listen and learn.


Totally agree - this is good stuff and generally what we've all been saying. It's good to hear you giving some solid advice! ...and honestly, yes brother - understand the frustration!!


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## JMHConstruction

Mark Oomkes said:


> Everyone has an hourly rate. The only thing by the hour is stacking or removal.
> 
> My price is based on X number of trips to that property over a normal season. Or, the amount of time that customer has bought from me. Once that time has been used, they pay for more time.
> 
> Value to a customer can change, time can't.





Mark Oomkes said:


> We can have 10" of snow that melts without me or anyone else plowing or salting it, why should someone pay for time that wasn't used?
> 
> I know, this falls apart with seasonal, except we have to cover our minimum costs in running a business to provide services. That's why Grandview loved it when it didn't snow.


Okay, I get what you're saying now. I thought you were arguing that we should charge by the hour. Too much thinking today and my brain is tired..


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## Luther

Mark Oomkes said:


> We can have 10" of snow that melts without me or anyone else plowing or salting it, why should someone pay for time that wasn't used?


You know I have a lot of respect for you, but this sounds like something a first or second year property manger says to me when he or she wants to beat me up. The professional weasel insists he shouldn't have to pay for December because there was no accumulating snow. The fact remains there are still real costs involved being prepared, performing pre-season site inspections, installing stakes and caution signs on properties, purchasing and handling product in advance so we have it on hand for the client, training the crews, purchasing equipment and supplies, having the equipment delivered ready and dedicated, having insurance, paying for office help, supplies and office tools to set up clients internally, etc. etc. The client has received a lot of value even though it hasn't snowed, or didn't stick the first or second time it snowed, or the last couple times it snowed.

We can also receive another 10" of snow spread out a bit that requires us to plow 5 times and salt 9 times. We know snow differs greatly based on its moisture content, and that ground temps can also vary greatly throughout the winter season. Another 10" accumulation may require just one hard azz push with one salt. These are extremes. It all has to be averaged out over a season. Stick your left foot in a bucket of hot water, and your right foot in a bucket of ice water. That's what adverage feels like. Averages are painful. Seasonal snowfall totals are measurable.


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## Freshwater

Broncslefty7 said:


> agreed. i have 4 of those rite next to each other, its legit


That's a great get there, protect those.


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## 1olddogtwo

What's wrong with hourly and then a flat rate?

Example 7am to 9pm charging hourly to maintain the lots, drives, lanes, handicap and so forth. Then a flat rate for a full plow?

It's all about time, the value of it.


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## Luther

Season pricing is based on seasonal snowfall total. We take the good with the bad.


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## Luther

Mark Oomkes said:


> You know Rick Kier, don't you Plow Lord?


I know who he is. I don't know him well. I know myself well, and I know I'm not plow lord. I am only Luther trying to carve out a living in a crazy business.


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## Mark Oomkes

Luther said:


> You know I have a lot of respect for you, but this sounds like something a first or second year property manger says to me when he or she wants to beat me up. The professional weasel insists he shouldn't have to pay for December because there was no accumulating snow. The fact remains there are still real costs involved being prepared, performing pre-season site inspections, installing stakes and caution signs on properties, purchasing and handling product in advance so we have it on hand for the client, training the crews, purchasing equipment and supplies, having the equipment delivered ready and dedicated, having insurance, paying for office help, supplies and office tools to set up clients internally, etc. etc. The client has received a lot of value even though it hasn't snowed, or didn't stick the first or second time it snowed, or the last couple times it snowed.
> 
> We can also receive another 10" of snow spread out a bit that requires us to plow 5 times and salt 9 times. We know snow differs greatly based on its moisture content, and that ground temps can also vary greatly throughout the winter season. Another 10" accumulation may require just one hard azz push with one salt. These are extremes. It all has to be averaged out over a season. Stick your left foot in a bucket of hot water, and your right foot in a bucket of ice water. That's what adverage feels like. Averages are painful. Seasonal snowfall totals are measurable.


Don't get your mandletoes in a knot. Either I didn't explain myself well enough or you misunderstood me.

I was in a tree and hate writing books from my phone. Once I'm in front if a computer again I'll try to explain myself better. But I agree with what you said above.


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## 1olddogtwo

Ok, need to ask:

Tree house?

Saving/rescuing a pussycat?

Lynching?

Picking apples?

Trim?

Is it dark and cold out?

Laying in a hammock?

Am I warm?


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## Mark Oomkes

1olddogtwo said:


> Ok, need to ask:
> 
> Tree house?
> 
> Saving/rescuing a pussycat?
> 
> Lynching?
> 
> Picking apples?
> 
> Trim?
> 
> Is it dark and cold out?
> 
> Laying in a hammock?
> 
> Am I warm?


Warm because you're in the deep South.


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## Defcon 5

Someone is back peddling........That someone is Oobaby


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## Defcon 5

Btw.....You are the Plow Lord....We took a vote


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## Ramairfreak98ss

ponyboy said:


> Good luck same here was offered $38,000 told them it's needs to be $60,000
> Did u sign them yet
> What equipment u running to Handel them or u trying to get them


did one in 2010-2011 season, per storm basis.. they disputed nearly every deice application through an nsp, rejected signing off literally every form, helped customers who hardly slipped, file formal complaint forms for slip and falls, "eight of them from one site", invoiced 70k or so, they paid 36k before we filed complaint for the remainder, after legal costs, got another 20% of it back :/


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## Ramairfreak98ss

Broncslefty7 said:


> walmart here went for 23k last season


WTH? thats the insurance cost for ONE in NJ alone...


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## galaxysvcs

I passed on Walmart in my area for 37500. Central jersey here and would sub have backhoe, skid steer and 4 trucks ready to go


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## John_DeereGreen

galaxysvcs said:


> I passed on Walmart in my area for 37500. Central jersey here and would sub have backhoe, skid steer and 4 trucks ready to go


All that for 1 Walmart? What do you do with it all after the lot is plowed in 45 minutes?


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## Ramairfreak98ss

John_DeereGreen said:


> All that for 1 Walmart? What do you do with it all after the lot is plowed in 45 minutes?


yeah where is that walmart at? lol We did a 400k walmart in 2010, which is now expanded and about 500k sq ft... but did the 400k with one 332D skid steer JD & 10' trip edge protech push box pretty easily. Machine ran full storm, truck would help clean up in end, could have used a backhoe there, could have done longer pushes on a 12' box but then it would slow it down with all the crazy amount of traffic on the site during storms. they want to pay extra, ill put any # of machines there. but for walmart they should be lucky for a 1999 S10 Chevy 4x4 with a tailgate spreader and 7' home owner plow..

the year after we did it, manager always complaining not enough salt etc.. another local company "Extra yard landscapes" which i think did it before we did, was out there with an f150 sized truck, ton of bags on back and a 7cu ft. western looking brand tailgate spreader... i LOL'd for 400k sq.


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