# Ice Management Responsibility



## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

41 degrees currently in West Michigan. It is raining with rain soon to end. Not to get below freezing for quite some time. Nationally known snow and ice management seen spreading salt. Are we begging for regulation by our practices? Bring on the comments.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

I worry about the properties I manage, not the ones others manage


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## TPCLandscaping (Jan 19, 2012)

I would salt or sand a property that may have a layer of snow on it, that snow will become very slippery if it doesn't melt fast.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I worry about the properties I manage, not the ones others manage


Thanks for your comment. My concern is indiscriminate application may or will cost us all. Do not mistake this for an accusation. I am not concerned about their properties. Do you think our practices will lead to regulation?


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## TPCLandscaping (Jan 19, 2012)

pre-treating is a proper practice done by even state agencies


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

TPCLandscaping said:


> pre-treating is a proper practice done by even state agencies


Fair enough. No measurable snow accumulation in the forecast. Rain forecast for tomorrow. We pre treat ourselves from time to time when waranted.


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## TPCLandscaping (Jan 19, 2012)

I've been required multiple times by TD Banks to go out and salt even if there is a dusting forecasted.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

The industry as a whole has been litigated into over salting. With that being said...

No, they should not be salting given the information given in this post. Nor would I/we be salting. Our lots still have signifigant moisture, but we won't be at the freezing mark for several more hours. And it's extremely windy. 

It's only a matter of time until salt applications are regulated similarly to pesticide applications. Except that's just going to hurt us, because salting isn't like pesticides, where it can easily be established the volume of salt that needs to be applied to accomplish the goal and have it work across the board. Unfortunately, the only people we have to blame are our peers who constantly over apply, or apply when conditions aren't warranted.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

Personally I think yes salt usage should be regulated. Is it possible? not really....
round here, the big guys use so much salt that they will just burn off an inch of snow instead of plowing. lots are just caked with salt after an event. I can't stand how much salt is wasted. 

I will say, the towns are the worst of them. They just salt and salt and salt. An editor even did an article on the over usage of salt by the towns. he found that one of our major waterways had an increased amount of salt in them from all the usage. This was a test over the years... last year the levels went down and they discredited all of it. the levels went down because we had half the snowfall of a normal year...


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## nor'easter1 (Jan 28, 2003)

This is a great thread as it has been on my mind this season. In my area I am seeing so much product put down you ask yourself sometimes what is going on. It used to be pretreat was a rare maybe once or twice a season service and now it is like standard practice. I find it impossible to believe that all these pre treaters are being compensated for the service. The way the roads, walks, pavers, steel, vehicles, are turing to dust seems to be happening so fast now. When property managers and owners start seeing the amount of erosion of there properties come spring I see those last invoices being held off and we will all have to become masons. Question is what is the answer?


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

they will need to regulate the lawyers first!


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I do know of one property that has been warned about salt usage, It all started because of the property manager did not know what she was doing and would not let the contractor do his job. They were moving the snow with trucks and dumping in retention pond to try to get away with removal.

These piles were not bothering anybody where they were, Some tenants were complaining about piles blocking the view of there store it was a outlet mall. When the snow melted it killed all the grass around where the retention pond dumped out. The lakes around here have high level of pesticides and salt levels from the farmers and state, towns dumping salt. The wine trail on the Finger lakes is loaded with grape farms.

The old Morton salt mine is on the lake too. They want to store natural gas in the old salt mine. Protesters are going crazy and the people that live on the shores. I been fired over situations on seasonal for not salting when not slippery and 40* temps expected in situations like the freezing rain that a lot of us got last night. 

Whats funny to me when the same mall decides to try a per trip year there is never a problem when they are paying for it. I know they are paying on seasonal too but they have a different tune on per trip. I for one will not spread salt if it is not slippery. I'm not a tree huger but still want to be green as I can.


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## Mike NY (Feb 2, 2009)

What were/ are the ground temps? I am currently at 39 deg and the rain has froze upon hitting the cold ground. I agree that we must not over apply or apply when not necessary but when my butt is on the line...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes and as long as your making that decision is fine to cover your butt, When you already been monitoring and you pass on salt because it was not slippery and you get a call from some :terribletowel: that he wants salt this is not right. The towns they know when there allotment of salt is coming in, If they got a full salt barn they will start dumping like crazy so they don't miss the loads.

This is why seasonal suks because of maintenance people think it's there call. Put them on trip and they cry about salt trips when it is slippery. I know I would rather just do per trip. In my excavation etc. I don't get paid for not working and is no seasonal you get paid when you finish a job. Seasonal around here gets bid every season, Different contractor every year. Per trip you stay with your jobs years on end.

I like per trip don't have to worry about any snow wizards and I get paid when I work and if it's light snow amount season so be it. I survived last season with 5'' of snow. I maybe in a little different situation then some I'm collecting a full pension. If I did not have that I may think differently.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mike NY said:


> What were/ are the ground temps? I am currently at 39 deg and the rain has froze upon hitting the cold ground. I agree that we must not over apply or apply when not necessary but when my butt is on the line...


I agree with this, we are above freezing with some major ice build up this morning, a warm rain pulls the frost out of the ground and freezes. We all make the calls we make, a few years back there were write ups in our papers from armchair quarterbacks criticizing the application on our municipal roads overnight. Others see it for a different viewpoint, you don't simply cover 200km of road in an hour. Someone makes the mobilization call early to avoid catastrophe, sometimes it's a hit sometimes it's a miss.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

TPCLandscaping said:


> pre-treating is a proper practice done by even state agencies


Did you miss the part aboot RAINING?

No one in their right mind applies salt whilst it's raining and 41° and little to no snow or freezing rain is predicted.

Dilution, it's a term anyone who applies salt should comprehend.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Did you miss the part aboot RAINING?
> 
> No one in their right mind applies salt whilst it's raining and 41° and little to no snow or freezing rain is predicted.
> 
> Dilution, it's a term anyone who applies salt should comprehend.


It's poor mans pre wet...


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

The ct dot puts down liquid on all bridges non stop,sometimes days in advance of even a hint of an event.Seems like they treat our coastal area the same as colder inland areas.Last week there was a state truck sitting under an overpass with a full load of salt in the pouring rain,temps in 40's.I think they need better management /weather forecasters. There seems to be a quest to keep traffic flowing with minimal accidents,our highways are running at least 2 times there design limits.People want instant clear roads,everyone is in a crazy rush to go everywhere.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

leigh said:


> The ct dot puts down liquid on all bridges non stop,sometimes days in advance of even a hint of an event.Seems like they treat our coastal area the same as colder inland areas.Last week there was a state truck sitting under an overpass with a full load of salt in the pouring rain,temps in 40's.I think they need better management /weather forecasters. There seems to be a quest to keep traffic flowing with minimal accidents,our highways are running at least 2 times there design limits.People want instant clear roads,everyone is in a crazy rush to go everywhere.


That right there is our problem! They're making expectations for all people to have clear roads always. Whenever we get an event during the morning rush all hell breaks loose because the dot has gotten so many people used to having almost perfect roads that they are losing the skills to drive in the snow. That and people no longer need to equip their vehicles as well because of this


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mike NY said:


> What were/ are the ground temps? I am currently at 39 deg and the rain has froze upon hitting the cold ground. I agree that we must not over apply or apply when not necessary but when my butt is on the line...


I'm not sure, I need to get a RoadWatch on my truck again.

But I can tell you the pavement temps were well above freezing as nothing froze on pavement. Shoot, most of the moisture dried up before it froze this morning. I was expecting ice rinks of everything and all we had to do was spot salting.

Given the conditions we had, it was irresponsible and a waste of time, money and material.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Our city seems to do the opposite. Maybe it's because we get less snow, so they have a smaller budget. They always seem to miss the mark. I'm always called out before I see a single city plow or salt truck. If we get any ice the roads are a nightmare, and snow is pretty hard packed once they get to it. Granted they seem to do a good job of managing what plows have been where, and what streets they still need to hit, I don't think they put down enough salt. I don't expect roads to be 100%, but it seems like they could do a better job of determining when to start salting and plowing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Proper anti-icing has been proven to reduce salt usage, I will not argue that. 

But the key word is "proper".


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

Great discussion. Keep it going. The question begging to be asked is; how do we as professionals, educate and encourage proper and environmentally sensitive use of all de-icing materials?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

In mn you can take a state run course given by MDot,


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

SnoFarmer said:


> In mn you can take a state run course given by MDot,


I actually took that course. And passed . I also collaborated with Connie Fortin and a number of others on a training manual for use in Michigan. This came about as a result of salt spray damage to blueberry farms in West Michigan. I will find the link and post it. Good reading for all.


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

The training manual referenced above can be found at the following link:

http://miwintermaintenance.weebly.com/manual-and-presentation.html


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Unfortunately


Mark Oomkes said:


> Proper anti-icing has been proven to reduce salt usage, I will not argue that.
> 
> But the key word is "proper".


You mean the request I got from a customer last night for salt while it was 45 degrees and raining isn't appropriate?


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Herm Witte said:


> Great discussion. Keep it going. The question begging to be asked is; how do we as professionals, educate and encourage proper and environmentally sensitive use of all de-icing materials?


The Red Army should have sent trucks out later in the evening or early morning and inspected lots and treated them on a case by case basis...Sending guys out just to blanket salt is just wrong...It take no more time to inspect and treat on a as needed basis...Most of the time it quicker...Granted on a per app account your not gonna be able to gouge them for a full app...

On the flipside...I was at a very large Automotive plant for many years...This place was a 50 ton+ per app account...They told us they would rather trip over salt than have a slip and fall...It all boils down to education and common sense...


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