# Apartment complex: plow and salt: road, parking, sidewalks, dumpster areas



## non applicable

I'm wondering if someone more experienced can give me their annual bid for snow removal and salting the following:

63 inches of average annual snowfall, though this number can vary drastically.

7/8 linear mile of sidewalks (standard 4 ft wide, plow w/atv is not an option so two passes with a snow-thrower)

3/8 linear mile of road (11ft width x 2 or ~44,000 square feet)

1/4 mile of uncovered parking (11 ft length or ~14,500 square feet)

5 dumpster areas that are approx 40ft by 20ft.

It is likely that the complex will be purchasing all of the salt that they want me to disperse for this job.

There aren't a lot of areas for stacking snow, but I have seen how other operators have done things in the past. This is my apartment complex by the way, and they've asked me for a bid because the current company never clears the walks, doesn't salt, and they plow all the cars in.

Attached is an image of the apartment complex.

Thank you for any and all input.

Edit: In case it is of use I will be plowing with a 2008 3/4 ton truck with an 8600 Blizzard Speedwing plow and a 5 cubic foot tailgate salt dispenser. I am purchasing the Toro Power Clear 721 Commercial Single Stage snowblower and I will be salting walkways with a walk-behind salt dispenser. I am doing this work by myself, and my travel time is 0 mins =).


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## grandview

Your over your head on this on one if that's all the equipment you have. Sure hoped you looked at this place after midnight,I'll bet a lot more cars then whats in that pix. Also when your doing places like this,you'll be plowing it twice each storm.


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## RLM

There is probably a reason the walks aren't getting done. They went with the cheapest contractor and once the contractor figured out he couldn't do it for the price he started cutting corners. Over the years, I have found apartment complexes don't like to pay much, want multiple service visits because people move cars at odd hour, require lots of babysitting for little money. Your situation is worse because you live there they can see if your home & call because Mrs Smith decided to go to dinner so now you can clear her spot out 
We were fired from an apartment complex job a few years ago, they didn't like our service. Contract said the manager had to call us to receive service, they barely called, of course your not going to be happy. When they dropped us I ran the numbers using a site we have adjacent to them (same supposed trigger too), we should have billed in the 11k range....their bill was less than 3k due to lack of call outs....no wonder your not happy, IMO I should have been the one not happy I was loosing out on a lot of money by not getting called in, then when they finally would call we had either deep snow or hard pack to deal with because they had driven all over it. Needless to say we still have the adjacent site 3 or 4 seasons later.


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## non applicable

grandview;1639979 said:


> Your over your head on this on one if that's all the equipment you have. Sure hoped you looked at this place after midnight,I'll bet a lot more cars then whats in that pix. Also when your doing places like this,you'll be plowing it twice each storm.


I also have an Ariens dual stage and of course shovels, but I find that the dual stage isn't necessary very often, and I just have it as a backup for the heavier storms that may or may not occur. Generally those storms do not occur in the part of the valley where I will be doing this job. Yeah, it will be slower when / if I need to pull out the dual-stage on this job, but I just plan accordingly and give myself an extra couple of hours.

Since I live here, I am fine clearing the uncovered parking mid-day while the cars are gone. I'm also fine dumping as much salt as necessary on the parking lot, since I'm not paying for the salt. The contract would be written such that I plow in the morning and evenings with a 2" trigger and I clear the uncovered parking mid-day while the cars are gone. If a given car doesn't move, I don't clear there, and it's the responsibility of the property to take care of that spot.

As I figure it, worst case scenario for the walks is being able to clear them at 1mph for each pass, which would give me 2 hours to clear all of the walkways. Salting the walkways is easy, I am a competitive runner and I can run the drop-spreader around the walkways in under 15mins. The sidewalk is all flat and does not have any steps.

Clearing the roadway / parking would take me 2 hours, since it mostly consists of clearing the roadway and waiting until mid-day when the cars are gone to clear out the uncovered parking, which would take another 1 hour tops (assuming it hasn't melted off yet). Here in Utah there are very few days that don't break freezing so clearing the snow mid-day is quite easy because it's either melted off considerably or it's just some slush to push around.

So for each storm there's roughly 5 hours worth of work, but we'll say 6 hours just to make sure my bases are covered. There will be 15 storms throughout the year, which based on a 63" snow total would drop approx 4" of snow each storm.

So by my calculations I will work a total of 75 hours per season on this location. At $100 per hour I figure a bid around $7500 is reasonable.

I didn't provide all of this information in my original posting for a reason, I was hoping for some input. After I write everything out like this it can affect how a person views the job. Based on the threads I have read in the "bidding" forum it seems nearly impossible to get anyone to actually give a bid on a job for comparison, everyone is so focused on equipment and looks at a job with preconceived ideas of how they would do it. Bias is understandable because we see a job as how it would be done in our situation, but there are many ways to skin a cat. I should have left the equipment off of my original post, as well as leaving off that I was doing it myself.

All of that being said, how much would you yourself bid the job at? Whether you use two trucks and a ground crew or figuring it as a one person job, however you feel you would do it. What would your bid be, please?


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## non applicable

RLM;1639981 said:


> There is probably a reason the walks aren't getting done. They went with the cheapest contractor and once the contractor figured out he couldn't do it for the price he started cutting corners. Over the years, I have found apartment complexes don't like to pay much, want multiple service visits because people move cars at odd hour, require lots of babysitting for little money. Your situation is worse because you live there they can see if your home & call because Mrs Smith decided to go to dinner so now you can clear her spot out
> We were fired from an apartment complex job a few years ago, they didn't like our service. Contract said the manager had to call us to receive service, they barely called, of course your not going to be happy. When they dropped us I ran the numbers using a site we have adjacent to them (same supposed trigger too), we should have billed in the 11k range....their bill was less than 3k due to lack of call outs....no wonder your not happy, IMO I should have been the one not happy I was loosing out on a lot of money by not getting called in, then when they finally would call we had either deep snow or hard pack to deal with because they had driven all over it. Needless to say we still have the adjacent site 3 or 4 seasons later.


True, they did go with the cheapest contractor and it backfired on them. Now they are looking for a seasonal contract with someone who will do an adequate job of things. They're not looking for things to be perfect, if I only have time to clear one 28" pass on the sidewalks before I needed to hit another job they'd be fine with that as long as I came back later in the day to clear off the other 20". If the uncovered parking is full of vehicles I will come back mid-day to clear that area (which isn't actually a return visit, it's actually just me going home and having a look around to see what needs to be cleared before I go eat some lunch). If a vehicle has not moved during the time when I am doing clean-up then I have specifically written into the contract that it is the responsibility of the property to deal with the snow in that location. If they do call me 5 or 6 times a year to jump in my truck and push something off after a person moved then honestly I don't think that's too big of a deal, but I really doubt it would ever happen.

In the post above I have written out the specifics of my bid that I am considering submitting, however I'd really prefer if you didn't read that information and you just gave me a ballpark figure of what you'd bid the job at based on however many trucks, people, equipment and time that you feel you would use. I'm wondering how much other companies will bid the job at and and how much of a buffer I can build into my own bid in order to cover my bases in case we have a year where there's 63" of snow falling in one month instead of as the yearly total. It's also a possibility that we get two snow storms for the entire year and I essentially get paid for being on-call, so I don't want to bid too high either. The snowfall here in the valley is very unpredictable, more-so than most places.

Thanks again for your time and input, it is appreciated!


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## peteo1

I agree with Grandview, you're in over your head. To get that place done in a reasonable amount of time you'll need two trucks and a shoveler crew. Personally I'd park my skid steer in that lot and let it work but to your point, one guy in a truck and a snowblower isn't enough. Not to sound like a jerk but you probably should learn the snow business before you go out on your own and put yourself in the poor house. I don't think your pricing is bad but 5-6 hours to plow one apartment complex is way too long.


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## Wilnip

If it only snowed between 11pm and 4am and no more that 2" per storm, no problem.


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## non applicable

peteo1;1640021 said:


> I agree with Grandview, you're in over your head. To get that place done in a reasonable amount of time you'll need two trucks and a shoveler crew. Personally I'd park my skid steer in that lot and let it work but to your point, one guy in a truck and a snowblower isn't enough. Not to sound like a jerk but you probably should learn the snow business before you go out on your own and put yourself in the poor house. I don't think your pricing is bad but 5-6 hours to plow one apartment complex is way too long.


Thanks for the input Peteo, it is good to know that my bid pricing is reasonable.

As for being in over my head, thank you for that input as well - I can understand your point of view. I would hire a laborer if it came to that, but I don't think it will be necessary. I disagree with you based on the following:

Knowing that this complex is not willing to pay the costs associated with first rate service, they will never be the top priority account on any companies list, they will be the last. If two trucks clear the street and two workers clear the walkways and the team is able to finish the complex in 1.5 hours, what difference does it make when it's already 9:00 AM? Sure, the complex would like everything done by 6:00AM in the morning, and they would like it all for the lowest lowball price that anyone in the valley is willing to put out there, but the two conditions cannot be simultaneously satisfied. I have been living here for 6 years and in 6 years snow removal has never once even been started by 6:00 in the morning because the complex doesn't pay the going rate for that sort of service.

My approach here is different from the textbook approach, but it is viable and the conditions of both parties can be satisfied. Yes, it does take me 4 to 6 hours to complete all of the work, however the crucial work can be completed in 2 hours. It will take me 1 hour to clear the roadway, and 1 hour to clear and salt a two foot wide walking path around the walkway. If I start at 4:00 AM, I am finished with the crucial work by 6:00AM. At this point I can make another pass around the sidewalk, clear the dumpster areas, eat my breakfast, and then after everyone has headed out to work I clear the uncovered parking.

If I work 4 hours at $100 per hour on a team of 4 people and we clear 4 accounts in 4 hours, someone on the list is still last, I still made $400, and ever changing conditions still apply. If I work by myself for 4 hours, on one account, and I make $400, I still made $400, the apartment complex is happy because the walkways and roadways have a path clear by 6:00AM, and I am still able to do high quality work.

This account is my top priority, as long as we both work together we both come out ahead. It is a different service than other companies provide, but in this particular instance I feel that it is a superior niche service.


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## non applicable

Wilnip;1640053 said:


> If it only snowed between 11pm and 4am and no more that 2" per storm, no problem.


Thanks for the input Wilnip. What do you feel about my proposed order of operation described in the post up above? With my proposal, as long as I keep up with the "crucial work" during the 2 to 6 larger storms that pass through each year it seems like I should do fine. Once there is a break in the storm (no later than noon generally) I just complete the rest of everything else. The valley is simply not going to see more than 12" of measured snowfall in one storm, it isn't going to happen. The record for the most snowfall in a 24 hour period is 18".

Yeah, the larger storms (6-10 inches) will make for a long day, but it will make for a long day for anyone doing snow removal, and it's only 2 to 6 days a year. The record for snowfall in one season is 117", so even if every storm delivered a record breaking 18" of snowfall, that's still only 6 days per year of hard work. In college I put in hundreds of days of hard work, especially during finals. 2 to 6 days a year is not so bad.


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## born2farm

Is this going to be your only account?


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## grandview

This is were you will get boned,if you sign a contract with this place and it has set times things will be done and you sign it,you'll have to met the terms of the contract. So if it said it will be done by 6-7 am and your done at 9am your in violation of the contract. Another word,you say they don't pay top dollar so they'll get lower service won't fly. When you sign the contract for set price ,it becomes top priority. See what I'm getting at?


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## Luther

Take GV's advice and keep the time frame ambiguous on the contract. Cover your butt and include verbiage stating that you will be first just "opening up" the site, then returning at some point later in the day to complete the work. 

Rethink the sidewalk work. +\-20,000 sq ft of sidewalks will take you mulch longer than you currently believe.

If you don't have too many other commitments, you'll be able to pull this off. However, there will be times when you'll find yourself in a pickle. 

Are you responsible to service the lots and walks on refreeze and drifting situations?


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## non applicable

born2farm;1640058 said:


> Is this going to be your only account?


Possibly, unless I hire a laborer to do the walkways or if I can get a few accounts that don't need to be cleared until later in the day.



grandview;1640059 said:


> This is were you will get boned,if you sign a contract with this place and it has set times things will be done and you sign it,you'll have to met the terms of the contract. So if it said it will be done by 6-7 am and your done at 9am your in violation of the contract. Another word,you say they don't pay top dollar so they'll get lower service won't fly. When you sign the contract for set price ,it becomes top priority. See what I'm getting at?


Exactly, that's what I'm banking on. I offer a niche service that does make the apartment complex a top priority, because they're getting one pass of the walkways with their roadways opened up by 6:00AM. Nobody else is going to offer that service for anywhere near my bid because when another crew rolls in they come with two trucks and 3 guys on the ground and they deserve to be paid appropriately for making this account a priority. If someone does match my bid they're just going plow all the vehicles into their stalls and leave.

Thanks for the additional feedback Grandview, I agree that I need to use caution not to box myself into a corner with this account.



TCLA;1640060 said:


> Take GV's advice and keep the time frame ambiguous on the contract. Cover your butt and include verbiage stating that you will be first just "opening up" the site, then returning at some point later in the day to complete the work.
> 
> Rethink the sidewalk work. +\-20,000 sq ft of sidewalks will take you mulch longer than you currently believe.
> 
> If you don't have too many other commitments, you'll be able to pull this off. However, there will be times when you'll find yourself in a pickle.
> 
> Are you responsible to service the lots and walks on refreeze and drifting situations?


 Any additional services besides what I outlined in the contract would be an additional per-event charge at $100 per hour for the truck and $50 per hour for the walkways. The sidewalks are straightforward here, and 1/2 of them have vehicles pulled up over the walkway so only one pass is actually feasible and I've outlined this in the contract.

In a worst case scenario, as long as I can run a snowblower around .75 to 1 MPH I'm good. Since there aren't steps to clear and I wouldn't be doing any reversing with the snowblower I think that's feasible. I can definitely see what everyone is saying about cutting it close though. I'd really prefer not to hire a laborer because I don't want to cover workman comp, but if I had to I would.

Since $7500 seems to be on track I'm going go ahead and figure in a buffer for in case I have to hire a laborer. 6 larger storms per year with an estimated 2.5 hours of labor and I'll adjust my bid by $750. If someone thinks they can beat that and give the complex top priority let them try.

Thanks for the input everyone, I appreciate it.


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## grandview

Just remember your one pass thru. slip and fall.Make sure you have plenty of insurance,anything happens and this complex with put it all on you.


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## cet

When plowing the roadway are you pushing the snow off to 1 side? I have a feeling that it has to be taken to a piling area. This will take a lot of time, even with a snowing.

I wouldn't be as concerned with the amount of snow as much as the # of snowfalls. One 4" snowfall will take far less time to clear the two 2" snowfalls. I would rather know the average # of events and not how much snow falls in a year if you are giving them a flat rate.

$7500 seems low too.


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## Mick76

non applicable;1640095 said:


> Possibly, unless I hire a laborer to do the walkways
> . I'd really prefer not to hire a laborer because I don't want to cover workman comp, but if I had to I would.


Hire a "Labor Ready" type employee...... Labor Ready covers them under their own expense


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## non applicable

grandview;1640100 said:


> Just remember your one pass thru. slip and fall.Make sure you have plenty of insurance,anything happens and this complex with put it all on you.


 Good point, but If the complex only asks for one pass in the contract and I show up and deliver on what they've asked me to do I should be covered. I'll have a lawyer friend of mine look over the contract to make sure that things are worded appropriately.



cet;1640107 said:


> When plowing the roadway are you pushing the snow off to 1 side? I have a feeling that it has to be taken to a piling area. This will take a lot of time, even with a snowing.
> 
> I wouldn't be as concerned with the amount of snow as much as the # of snowfalls. One 4" snowfall will take far less time to clear the two 2" snowfalls. I would rather know the average # of events and not how much snow falls in a year if you are giving them a flat rate.
> 
> $7500 seems low too.


I've tried searching for decent weather history but I've not had much luck. The state records everything as precipitation, snowfall is something that only the ski resorts keep detailed records on. I'm basing everything off of totals, averages, and my own best recollection. Storms here are generally hyperbolic - it snows, and then it's done. Snowfall after 8:00 in the morning doesn't accumulate.

Snow is stacked in about 10 different locations around the complex, most of them are on a turn and the snow is just pushed up onto the grass island area or back into a corner. Not as easy as just pushing it off to the side, but not as bad as a centralized piling area.

With a $750 buffer the bid would be $8250. Do you feel that $8250 is low even if they are supplying the salt? What would you bid?



Mick76;1640115 said:


> Hire a "Labor Ready" type employee...... Labor Ready covers them under their own expense


 Thanks for the tip! I'll look into that.


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## Luther

Please do yourself a favor na...make sure you complete your in-event documentation for yourself. Write down your exact in and out times performing your work. Also separate out your sidewalk activity from your plowing activity, and the tools you used performing your work.

You'll need to know your production rate at different snow depths for your future biding. And if any liability comes your way it may help in your defense. Measure and document the snow depth, and also separate out the time it takes you to salt vs the amount of time it takes you to clear off the surfaces. Also document the quantities of deicers you use.

You won't be albe to analyze how much per hour you made without this, and you will also realize you can't estimate using mph as your constant. 

Good luck with it.


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## Wilnip

non applicable;1640057 said:


> Thanks for the input Wilnip. What do you feel about my proposed order of operation described in the post up above? With my proposal, as long as I keep up with the "crucial work" during the 2 to 6 larger storms that pass through each year it seems like I should do fine. Once there is a break in the storm (no later than noon generally) I just complete the rest of everything else. The valley is simply not going to see more than 12" of measured snowfall in one storm, it isn't going to happen. The record for the most snowfall in a 24 hour period is 18".
> 
> Yeah, the larger storms (6-10 inches) will make for a long day, but it will make for a long day for anyone doing snow removal, and it's only 2 to 6 days a year. The record for snowfall in one season is 117", so even if every storm delivered a record breaking 18" of snowfall, that's still only 6 days per year of hard work. In college I put in hundreds of days of hard work, especially during finals. 2 to 6 days a year is not so bad.


I think it makes sence. Communication is the key. Make sure you have a meeting with management to discuss tour plan before the contract is signed. Also, I'd find a teenager that lives in the complex that can help with walks when needed I feel that a Temp Service will give you some guy that's still drunk from the night before.


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## Luther

Using an uninsured teen is an option I suppose...but this could cause problems for him.

As long as na doesn't mind hack status it's all good.

His butt will be covered using a legit temp worker.


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## Wilnip

TCLA;1640148 said:


> Using an uninsured teen is an option I suppose...but this could cause problems for him.
> 
> As long as na doesn't mind hack status casual workers whose employment is casual in character AND not in the regular course of the business of the employerasual workers whose employment is casual in character AND not in the regular course of the business of the employert's all good.
> 
> His butt will be covered using a legit temp worker.


Having part time casual workers does not make you a hack. It makes you an informed business man. And who is going to call him a hack? You? Other people on plowsite? Who cares? It all comes down to the bottom line. Profit. Why create extra expense that is not required? 
NA, state laws differ but in PA this casual, part time employee would be exempt from workers compensation laws. Whether it's an adult or a teenager. And in PA, if he earns less than $600 in a calander year, he is exempt from payroll witholding taxes as well. Of course it's NAs decision, but why pay double for labor if you don't have too?


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## Luther

No need to get excited Wilnip. I never said utilizing casual labor makes one a hack.



Wilnip;1640146 said:


> I'd find a teenager that lives in the complex that can help with walks when needed I feel that a Temp Service will give you some guy that's still drunk from the night before.


However, utilizing a minor teen would. I imagine most teens that live in apartment complexes are minors, therefore it would be best to understand the labor laws that govern and restrict minors.

It would be very regretful if he hired a minor teen, paid him cash to save a buck, and the minor fell and hurt himself working. Or worse yet...he placed a pile of snow somewhere, or missed shoveling an area where someone else fell and got hurt.

Temporary staffing employees are screened and are covered under that company's workers compensation, general liability and unemployment insurances. His butt is covered. He may only need a helper once or twice a year on the large accumulations with his sidewalk work. We're not talking about a large sum of money here.

It's not a lot of cost for a big piece of mind.

And for the record, you added quite a bit of verbiage in the body of my quote when you posted it. That is not what I posted.


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## cet

It would be impossible for me to give you a price for your area.
I would be concerned when you say most of the snow after 8am melts. Does it then freeze at night? Even though they are providing the salt, have you counted for any salt only events? In my area there would be 40-50 saltings as well as site checks that I would expect to be paid for. All I will say is $7500 wouldn't be close here, not by me anyways.


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## Wilnip

TCLA;1640174 said:


> No need to get excited Wilnip. I never said utilizing casual labor makes one a hack.
> 
> However, utilizing a minor teen would. I imagine most teens that live in apartment complexes are minors, therefore it would be best to understand the labor laws that govern and restrict minors.
> 
> It would be very regretful if he hired a minor teen, paid him cash to save a buck, and the minor fell and hurt himself working. Or worse yet...he placed a pile of snow somewhere, or missed shoveling an area where someone else fell and got hurt.
> 
> Temporary staffing employees are screened and are covered under that company's workers compensation, general liability and unemployment insurances. His butt is covered. He may only need a helper once or twice a year on the large accumulations with his sidewalk work. We're not talking about a large sum of money here.
> 
> It's not a lot of cost for a big piece of mind.
> 
> And for the record, you added quite a bit of verbiage in the body of my quote when you posted it. That is not what I posted.


TCLS, I apologize if I sounded like I was starting an argument. It wasn't meant like that. I also apologize for messing up your quote. Sometimes these smart phones are not so smart. :salute:
I see your point on using temp workers 1 or 2 times throughout the season. In a pinch I may do that also, but I have not been impressed with any temp workers I came across and would not include them in my plan. For those times, in the situation the OP is describing in this thread, I would rather have an eager young man do the work. But I guess we just disagree on this matter.

One other point, I wasn't suggesting paying the teen cash. You pay him on the books, with a check, but you don't have to withhold any deductions from his check, if he is a casual worker.

But enough of highjacking this thread. prsport


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## Luther

Wilnip;1640200 said:


> but I have not been impressed with any temp workers I came across and would not include them in my plan.
> 
> I'm going to meet with a staffing co next week to see what they can offer to us. I'll keep an open mind about it for now.
> 
> For those times, in the situation the OP is describing in this thread, I would rather have an eager young man do the work. But I guess we just disagree on this matter.


We don't really disagree on this. I would also rather have an eager young man work for us as opposed someone who came to work still drunk from the night before. Thumbs Up

Just trying to do a small part in keeping the op mindful of his liabilities.


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## sectlandscaping

Couple of points here. 

First off your low on price and high on hours. 

Your going to need a back up truck. **** breaks and nothing is open. 

Your going to need more then one guy. Often its the 3rd or 4th person that picks up the phone at 3:30 am. 

2" trigger! No property manager knows what 2" means. They think thats a snow flake and expect you to be there. 

Clearing out cars! The reason noone does this is because there not paid too. Theres more risk, more time, and more waiting for someone to move a car. That equals more money!!!! not less. 

Any contractor on here will tell you. If a place has a problem with every contractor its not the contractor its the place. They will do the same to you. So you can expect to only do it one year. 

workers comp $1500
commercial auto $1000
GL $750
Fuel $1000
Wages $1000

When its all said and done I dont see you making much more then $20 a hour. You can work for someone else for $60-$100 a hour.


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## Prestige WNY

Way too much work for way too little money. Just for plowing I would be at 15k plus salt and walks


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## non applicable

Prestige WNY;1643311 said:


> Way too much work for way too little money. Just for plowing I would be at 15k plus salt and walks


 I do agree, but when one is starting a business they often have to take what they can get.

I will also be subing, but that's not guaranteed money, it's dependent on if it snows or not. This is at least a reasonable insurance plan for bringing in some income.

I'm not afraid of working hard. If I have to put in a little bit of muscle work with the snowblower and a shovel, and not get paid for it, then so be it. Even if I only manage to break even (which isn't going to be the case) I still gain valuable data and experience that will help me to better strategize next year.


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## non applicable

sectlandscaping;1640445 said:


> Couple of points here.
> 
> First off your low on price and high on hours.
> 
> Your going to need a back up truck. **** breaks and nothing is open.
> 
> Your going to need more then one guy. Often its the 3rd or 4th person that picks up the phone at 3:30 am.
> 
> 2" trigger! No property manager knows what 2" means. They think thats a snow flake and expect you to be there.
> 
> Clearing out cars! The reason noone does this is because there not paid too. Theres more risk, more time, and more waiting for someone to move a car. That equals more money!!!! not less.
> 
> Any contractor on here will tell you. If a place has a problem with every contractor its not the contractor its the place. They will do the same to you. So you can expect to only do it one year.
> 
> workers comp $1500
> commercial auto $1000
> GL $750
> Fuel $1000
> Wages $1000
> 
> When its all said and done I dont see you making much more then $20 a hour. You can work for someone else for $60-$100 a hour.


Definitely not paying workers comp, and it's very unlikely that I will be paying wages.


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## MatthewG

My first thought was "wow" when you said one truck and I saw that picture.

Id be at $18,000 for the season, 1 big skid steer with the Kage of course and 1 salt truck with XLS

2 snow blowers with labor
2 guys with 30" shovels

All my guys get paid cash and I have full insurance including workman compensation


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## northernsweeper

Wow! I have to agree with what has already been said. Thats way to cheap. Remember all those people who will be moving their cars, are going to be brushing the snow back onto the sidewalks. You say if you only break even thats ok, but a couple big snowfalls are going to take their toll on your truck transmission and front end. not to mention tires,brakes,etc. Breaking even should not be an option. If they dictate the salting, then let them hold the liability. I wish you the best, but I think no less than 12-15k. Good luck!


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