# Wheel Loader, what works best?



## Husker Mike (Nov 5, 2006)

Would sure appreciate some advice, the 20 years I have been in the snow business, I have only used trucks with plows, I have been looking at adding a loader with a box or a blade to my fleet and would like to have some input from those who have used them. I have some big accounts that I think a loader would make a big difference on in combination with one or more trucks. I am looking in the 25-40k range. Here are some questions I have:
How important is the differential lock? 
box plow or wing plow ?
brand and size of loader?
Anything else that would be important?
I have found a 644c JD that is in the price range but does not have the diff lock. Was thinking of a daniels box plow because I would be using it in combination with trucks anyhow. In a big parking lot like a super walmart, would a loader with a 12' box move twice the snow as a 9-2 boss vplow in the same amount of time? Opinions please.


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## RJ lindblom (Sep 21, 2006)

Not sure about diff lock, I would think it would not be a problem. Snow Farmer would know. The 644 seem to be a pretty good machine. Scottsbluff is small enough that drive time with the loader should not that bad.

Off topic, how did you fare in the last couple of storms?


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## Mark Witcher (Feb 21, 2004)

I do a Wal mart super center and another big parking lot. We have a 10 ft box plow that we have used on various types of machines. Backhoe, large farm tractor, Cat loader. A diff lock is not really needed. I wouldnt want to plow these big lots again without our loader and box plow. It more than pays for itself in time saved versus just pickup plows. We use the PUs to windrow and the loader pushes the piles to the ends and stacks. The Cat 920articulated loader we have works the best of the machines we have used. A 12 ft box plow will move 5 times as much as a 9 ft V plow.


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## SD-Dave (Dec 13, 2005)

Mike

I used to lease a Deere 644J nice machine and pretty big and powerful...that said I wouldn't worry about the diff lock but make sure you have good tires...that will make a bigger difference. I would go with a 12 or even 14' snow pusher...machine will definitely handle it...if transport is an issue pro-tech makes a folding one for easy transport.

In a parking lot a loader that size with a 12' pusher will crush a plow truck with a 9' v-plow whatever.

Goodluck...once you use a loader you will never go back to a pick/plow combo for large parking lots.


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## Husker Mike (Nov 5, 2006)

RJ lindblom;346845 said:


> Off topic, how did you fare in the last couple of storms?


We didn't have the snow that Denver had, in the first storm we had 7-8" with wind and the 2nd we had around 6". Only 2 times the ground has been white this year. As for our snow operations, 1st storm I had staff issues, 3 drivers out of 14 didn't show up as planned, had already been through my backup driver list, ended up running 3 trucks short. 2nd storm, had staff, but was plagued with mechanical issues but not severe. Just glad to have the snow. Thanks so much for your advice.


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## salopez (Apr 11, 2004)

Um ....I would put an 18 or maybe a 20 foot protech pusher on a JD 644. thats a big machine. Most people are running 16s on a 544.

At that point, your truck (no need for more then one) would clear your drive lanes and your loading dock. 

Good luck to you.


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## spiviter (Oct 31, 2004)

Just be careful of the weight of the machine you get, There can be to much weight for the pavement to handle.. I have a large lot that will not handle a machine over 20K. The last guy who ran a big machine destroyed parts of it and had to replace it....


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*Are you going to try and run....*

Hi,
Are you going to try and run your loader while customers are in the lot?Traffic?
If you are you'll have to consider lane width, if your loader and a car/truck could pass each other safely???
If you are in a retail lot you know how good some of the other drivers can be.....
A pusher will move more snow cleaner than any plow.A loader and pusher is like having two machines in one, one to move the snow and one to stack the snow.Make that three,four... one to load trucks,salt,sand,snow......Scrape up pac...The list goes on....
I've seen guys running 988's(to big) 966's(still to big) If you are around traffic I would think a 544 would be a good size or something like a IT28 quick and easy to maneuver etc...I ran a Cat 950 and that is really a quarry machine just to big to be whipping in and out of cars with ,even though I did.
As mentioned before good tires,most lots are pretty flat so Diff lock or chains shouldn't be an issue.
Just my thoughts...
I forgot dealer support....Who can get you parts the quickest if needed???You notice I didn't mention Case, that is because we had some real issues with our local Case dealers. Cat for the most part has gone above and beyond the norm to keep contractors happy in my old neck of the woods.It paid off for them too.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

spiviter, somebody did a really bad prep job if a loader ruined the pavement. 

As for what to use, it depends on what you will be plowing and if you will be traveling with it. 12' or 14' is real small. We run 16's & an 18 on a JD 524, Cat 938 and a Cat 950. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure those are all smaller than a 644.

As for production, the above will replace approximately 3 trucks. Plan on a truck to setup for the loader-along edges, pull out loading docks, make a pass along cars into the middle so the loader can push it to the end. A 12' would probably replace 2 trucks, however you would be wasting the production possibilities of this machine.

What types of lots are you servicing? Does all the snow have to go to one end? Or can you windrow like you would with a truck? A Daniel's Wing plow can be fitted with a mechanism that will help carry snow and still have the versatility of a plow that you can windrow with. A pusher box is awesome for areas that have all the snow carried to one or a few spots. If you have to transport, ProTech does have a folding unit and the Daniel's folds for transport. On the other hand, for the price of 1 Daniel's or 1 folding ProTech, you can purchase approximately 2 16' ProTechs. 

I will guarantee that no matter which one you buy, you won't view snow plowing the same again once you see what they can do.

OshKosh, I disagree on the size somewhat, a 950 is an excellent size machine. And around here, you get a lot more respect in a loader with a 16' pusher than you ever will a truck, even a larger truck. That's why we mostly use 16's, an great size for daytime getting in and around cars, while still being very productive when the lots are empty.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*I guess we agree to disagree...*



Mark Oomkes;347084 said:


> spiviter, somebody did a really bad prep job if a loader ruined the pavement.
> 
> As for what to use, it depends on what you will be plowing and if you will be traveling with it. 12' or 14' is real small. We run 16's & an 18 on a JD 524, Cat 938 and a Cat 950. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure those are all smaller than a 644.
> 
> ...


 Maybe your 950's are different than the one I ran (model year 2000,I thought it was a bone!) The It 28 could run circles around it in traffic and tight areas.But maybe thats just me.
All depends on how is is going to utilize it.
I agree on the rest,I have even seen/heard of guys putting pushers on trucks and they love them for bigger areas like town commons and the such.
Depending on the lot you may consider a trip edge setup,there are pros and cons to rubber versus steel versus trip but if your lot has rough spots, manholes etc a trip would take allot of stress of the loader arm pins of your machine. Again just some thoughts.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

I agree with Oshkosh,a 950 and above is overkill.I've ran loaders for snow removal in parking lots of all sizes anything from a IT28G to a Komatsu WA 600 in a Wal-Mart parking lot.The smaller loaders were more ideal as I could manouver around objests like cart corrals,light posts and parked cars.The 950G and 966C,E and G just ate up way too much room and were just too much machine for the lots we did no matter how large or small.

Production means nothing with bigger equipment,my machines of choice were the backhoes or IT28 size and I did double the work of the larger machine.Mind you we used buckets since snow pushers are just popping up in these parts but I can out produce a larger loader with a backhoe anyday in a lot big or small.

As far as I know the 544 Deere loaders compare to a Cat 936-950 and the Deere 624-644's were built to compete with the 966 series.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm curious murray and OshKosh, do you run these machines daily or during snow season only? Or something in between?


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## charlefoxtrtot (Oct 26, 2003)

*RE:Loader*

My company uses a Komatsu WA120 w/12' push box. No diff lock. You can't beat it for pushing, driving, etc...


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

I work off and on for a local civil contractor so our loaders are used in the pit or quarry mostly in summer loading trucks or we bring them on certain jobs such as sanitary sewer or watermain work where they shine best.Winter work is just to keep us busy as best as possible.Equipment time varies since I'm placed job to job and on any machine in need.


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## 2004F550 (Nov 13, 2003)

I agree with Mark....A CAT 950 is the perfect size for snow...a 950 isn't seen in a quarry, unless the quarry is a joke, rock would kill a 950. We use a 936 and a 950 for snow with angle plows for shopping centers and its no problem, you do need good operators though.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*Daily*



Mark Oomkes;347150 said:


> I'm curious murray and OshKosh, do you run these machines daily or during snow season only? Or something in between?


 As stated before it all depends on how he is going to use the machine(Stockpile machine,on the road,seasonal ,job site,quarry the options are endless) How he plans on transporting the machine from site to site etc....
I Cannot say one is better for him Only he knows how it is going to be used.
The machines I ran where year round machines....I ran a 950,It938 and It928 all late model, the last two ran circles around the 950 on the road.The 950 didnt come with street lighting(Headlights,blinkers, four ways) as it was over sized for the road(our roads anyways).
I don't know much about the details on loaders other then my seat time and that is all I am commenting on,my experience with the above machines.
As far as older 950's I've been told to stay away from them as the engines leave something to be desired.The guys who run that equipment in my circle prefer the older 966's instead.


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## plowinginma (Oct 22, 2005)

murray83;347148 said:


> Mind you we used buckets since snow pushers are just popping up in these parts but I can out produce a larger loader with a backhoe anyday in a lot big or small.


Ummmm My kamatsu W-A 500 and I will not only out plow your Little backhoe ....but load it in the trailer dump and have coffee while you figured out what just happened ....

I own equipment from a bobcat to large front end loaders ... A backhoe is a great piece of equipment .. it may even out plow my little GMC 1500 Z71 short bed pickup .. and ,I might note ,I love my back hoe for backhoe jobs ... but not for competition ..Especially snowplowing

I prefer a 966 with a 14FT pusher on it for plowing .. (I can plow a 5 acre site in about 70 min.. regardless of how much snow is in it .. ... and the biggest possible machine for loading snow and pushing up piles .. Just my take


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*How many years experience?*



2004F550;347206 said:


> I agree with Mark....A CAT 950 is the perfect size for snow...a 950 isn't seen in a quarry, unless the quarry is a joke, rock would kill a 950. We use a 936 and a 950 for snow with angle plows for shopping centers and its no problem, you do need good operators though.


How many years have you been running equipment?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Thanks. I was wondering because I have found that it makes way more sense to have someone who operates heavy equipment year round to plow for us. 

THe largest loader I own is a JCB 212. My subs have the larger loaders. THey have had everything from a backhoe to a 966 plowing for me. The 950 is a G model with a Balderson (sp?) hitch. The pusher mounts directly to the loader and it is an amazing machine. The others have the pushers attached to the buckets. The operators that are provided are only limited to what they can do by the width of the bucket and the sideplates on the pushers. Otherwise they can plow about 95% of the lots without any setup truck\equipment. 

We have been using loaders and ProTechs since '99 and have had no problems with these size loaders. 

I have never seen a loader as small as a 950 in a quarry. Maybe in other parts, but not around here. 

As for a backhoe outproducing a loader in any size lot? Drive on down, I'll put you up against any one of my subs.


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## 2004F550 (Nov 13, 2003)

I have been running loaders in quarrying for about 6 years on and off between other duties...in these operations i used 936's, 950's, 966's, and now a new 980H.....you are right about the 950 leaving much to be desired in the motor department. The 966 is a much better choice on the high side or the 936 for smaller work. In quarring however the 936 and 950 and even the 966 can not stand up to charging crushing plants. Hence a 980 now. A 950 can fill in to load stock piles etc, but it is not meant for a quarrying, fine for sewer/water pipe, other site duties but no quarry machine. The 936 and the 950 do, however, work very well for snowplowing in our shopping centers. I have visited Conway a number of times, do you plow anyof those outlet centers?


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## oarwhat (Nov 29, 2005)

I'm sure everyone will think we're crazy but we run 2 988's and one 980. We've been using the 988's since 1980 and the 980 for about 6 years. We run 18' blades and can clear any lane or row in the mall during business hours. Overkill not here in Buffalo I don't think .We been through 2 blizzards and more 12" to 30" snowfalls than I can count. We're going to downsize to the 980's They are quicker and push almost as much snow. I watch the guys with the smaller loaders because we're already on our way home and they are only have way done. In the big storms they have to remove their blades to push. Just the way we've done it for years.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*Gave it up for Christmas...*



2004F550;347224 said:


> I have been running loaders in quarrying for about 6 years on and off between other duties...in these operations i used 936's, 950's, 966's, and now a new 980H.....you are right about the 950 leaving much to be desired in the motor department. The 966 is a much better choice on the high side or the 936 for smaller work. In quarring however the 936 and 950 and even the 966 can not stand up to charging crushing plants. Hence a 980 now. A 950 can fill in to load stock piles etc, but it is not meant for a quarrying, fine for sewer/water pipe, other site duties but no quarry machine. The 936 and the 950 do, however, work very well for snowplowing in our shopping centers. I have visited Conway a number of times, do you plow anyof those outlet centers?


 No snow anymore....
I just don't feel the money "I" made moving snow was worth the hours or overhead invested .When I added up being on the hook 24/7 for snow and ice and divided that into everything else there wasn't allot left.
Allot of the big guys just move snow to keep their employees close at hand..Woods Trucking up our way pretty much gave it up,Larusso down in Plainville,Ma who I hauled for for several years gave up their contracts...That was before the past couple of lean seasons. 
Personally I'd rather ski,snowmobile or just sleep now.
BTW; When I said quarry machine for the 950 I was thinking stock pile machine as most of our quarries up here are sand pits.Most of the quarries that I used to deal with in MA where running either older 988's or the 980 series machines.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

You use a 950 for municipal utility work? Look into a IT model loader and get the forks and look into a side dump bucket.With the quick attach set up you will get more production out of the smaller loader.Thats my main work is doing water/sewer and the smaller the loader the better.

plowinginma: you bring that 500 Komatsu into a Wal-Mart parking lot with a backhoe and see who will win,remember bigger is never always better.In a larger lot you may have the advantage in straight runs but what if the lot is chopped up? around loading bays? exits/entrances?


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*On our 950*



murray83;347236 said:


> You use a 950 for municipal utility work? Look into a IT model loader and get the forks and look into a side dump bucket.With the quick attach set up you will get more production out of the smaller loader.Thats my main work is doing water/sewer and the smaller the loader the better.
> 
> plowinginma: you bring that 500 Komatsu into a Wal-Mart parking lot with a backhoe and see who will win,remember bigger is never always better.In a larger lot you may have the advantage in straight runs but what if the lot is chopped up? around loading bays? exits/entrances?


LOL, On Our 950 We had a sidedump and boy was that thing nose heavy(No Ride Control).....We also had a set of forks to unload the ductile pipe....You should have seen me doing that in the middle of town....It all comes down to the room he has to move the beast around in...
I had a friend that thought bigger and shinier was always better....His trailer dumps might not have brakes but they looked great...Well I wander, He had a 988 on an acre lot processing loam...The crank fell out the bottom of the thing so he borrowed a JD544 they ended up producing three times the loam with the smaller machine in the same amount of time...Oh ya $30,000 for the 988 rebuild....But it looked cool.....


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

The side dump idea was toward 2004F550 but yeah we did about 20 city contracts per season and you can't believe how well the IT28 performs.When I first started with this certain company 4 years ago we were doing municipal work with 950's and 966's and it was too big for city streets now the smaller machines just shine.


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## oarwhat (Nov 29, 2005)

Oshkosh;347245 said:


> LOL, On Our 950 We had a sidedump and boy was that thing nose heavy(No Ride Control).....We also had a set of forks to unload the ductile pipe....You should have seen me doing that in the middle of town....It all comes down to the room he has to move the beast around in...
> I had a friend that thought bigger and shinier was always better....His trailer dumps might not have brakes but they looked great...Well I wander, He had a 988 on an acre lot processing loam...The crank fell out the bottom of the thing so he borrowed a JD544 they ended up producing three times the loam with the smaller machine in the same amount of time...Oh ya $30,000 for the 988 rebuild....But it looked cool.....


 I agree the 988's definitely need a lot of room to maneuver and they are heavy. They're no good for any but very large parking lots,but during a huge snowfall you can't beat'm. We rarely used them in the summer TOO BIG!!!!


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*You guys like bigger stuff...*

LOL This happened on a Friday afternoon.Take a look at the right side under carriage....
We managed to get the chain back on but man was that heavy....


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Few years back I worked for another guy in town when i was laid off plowing the biggest mall in the city.We used 2 Dresser 560 from the late 70's a 1984 Dresser 550 a Komatsu WA 600 from 85 I think? and plowing that lot was the worst thing ever.Lucky me I was asked to run the 550 and on a good night she took 2 bottles of ether to get her to turn over unheated cab with broken glass,articulated in the rear all 4 were complete pieces of crap.


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## corey1977 (Sep 16, 2006)

*wheel loader what works best*

hay mike the guy that plows our local supper walmart has 2 644 with box plows


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## 2004F550 (Nov 13, 2003)

the 950 has a side dump and works with a 345B, it works for us because it allows the 950 to fill the 345 twice usually before it has to get another bucket full, the 936 sidedump doesn't carry as much and requires more trips. We just never found a place for the IT's, or anything less then an 936. Standard loader linkage with balderson couplers seems to work the best for us.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Nice machine do you do drain tile repair with her too?  actually I shouldn't joke since I was once sent to dig a foundation with a 550 Hitachi took about 2 hours start to finish lol.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*That section was a bugger*



murray83;347265 said:


> Nice machine do you do drain tile repair with her too?  actually I shouldn't joke since I was once sent to dig a foundation with a 550 Hitachi took about 2 hours start to finish lol.


 We where 23' down in that section....Actually needed a large machine there...Spent more time pumping out the hole some days...


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## HighwayDept. (Feb 7, 2005)

In my opinion it is all personal preference when it comes to what size machine is used in parking lots, but what does my opinion matter as I have no experience running equipment in a parking lot situation. I have seen the local Wal-mart here plowed entirely with pickups by one company here, and another company brought in a John Deere 670 grader and a Cat 938 loader

Speaking from and with experience though, I believe a Cat IT 28, Volvo L 70 or John Deere 544 is a perfect size machine for plowing town roads. We usually plow in the two Cat IT 28 we have and leave the Volvo in the garage so their is a loader at the yard to load the sanders.
Attached is a pic of our '87 Cat IT 28B with a Everst RM series reversible plow


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Been there before trying to keep up with pumping water out of the hole.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Our local quarry uses (3) 980's now they are big machines!


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## Toolman Taylor (Mar 11, 2006)

The ideal loader size depends on too many variables to be argueing over the net about it. 

However one point that should be made that some lots might not like chains on a loader, which is where winter radial tires come in. We run them on our 936's and they move upwards of 6 loaded rail cars at a time, so I speak quite highly of them. 

We would run them on our 950's and 966's but we have not been able to find the equivalent in a 23.5/25 tire. So if your thinking of using winter tires on a loader maybe consider one using 20.5/25 or smaller tires. 

The tires we use are Michelin SnoPlus 20.5/25

Good luck with whatever you buy!


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## SD-Dave (Dec 13, 2005)

I used to plow with large loaders...which were great for moving big piles of snow etc. They however stunk for maneuvering around buildings cars etc...extra weight and power really was unnecessary.

I used a Volvo L180E great machine but only good for moving piles and a Deere 644 slightly smaller but again too large for getting around yard with cars buildings etc.

Now I use a new but small Deere 244J with 9' Sno-Way Plow and a 10' Pro-Tech pusher...all quick attach. It plows great turns in half the distance of any truck...it pushes great...doesn't damage pavement and can also run a variety of skid-steer attachments including powered ones, with its 4th remote.

No it won't push a 14-20' pusher which is good for airports or empty huge shopping malls, but this is great for all other commercial property applications.

You should check out the option list on this...ride control return to dig etc...just like the big boys...nice

Check it out...

If I was doing big areas that were wide open...like a Walmart...I would get around a 30K-lbs machine and put a folding 16' pro-tech on it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Nice rig SD.

My dream machine is a Volvo L40 with a 16' Daniel's Wing Plow. Small enough to get in medium size lots, big enough to do some of the larger ones and still have enough weight and power to push a lot of snow. Assuming that ever happens again.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

We have a Case 721 with a 20' box. Since its new and we have had NO snow i dont know how it plows. The lots are wide open with no islands. The operators are guys that run the machines year round but with no snow non of this is important!


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## Edgewater (Mar 14, 2003)

http://www.fabshoule.com/en/product_snow.asp?id=9

Check out the link above. Look at the snow removal equipment gallery.

The company i work for has 2 of the extendable plows that open from 12 to 19 feet. One is on a CAT 966 and the other on a New Holland TV 140. The 140 is in the gallery near the end with the red blower (twin auger) on the back.

Those 2 machines get work done FAST. In heavy snow 12 feet is nice, for light falls and clean up, they open up and move.


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## Husker Mike (Nov 5, 2006)

Thanks guys for all your input. Opinions vary as I expected, but everyone seemed to agree that a loader and pusher is the way to go for big jobs. I was all set to buy the 644c, but after looking at it closely, I don't think its the right machine for me, I am going to keep looking. I do not have a crisis, I have been using trucks for lots of years they get me by. I am definitely going to purchase one, as soon as I find the one that fits. Thanks for all your help.


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