# Fleet pic



## Gr8WhiteNorth

Here are some shots of our stuff. I thought I had already started one, but cant find.


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## grandview

Can't beat it,Fords with Boss plows!


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## cat10

nice looking fleet love those loader tires


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## scott3430

That's an impressive fleet! I have seen your thread I think on Lawnsite - very nice business you have going!


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## NBI Lawn

Nice fleet


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## VIPLandscaping

Nice looking fleet!


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## Morrissey snow removal

real nice fleet


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## Glenn Lawn Care

Very nice set up!


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## mulcahy mowing

Nice looking... Got anymore of those skids? They look brand new!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*more pics*

Ask and you shall receive. More skid pics


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Anyone else's job board look like this after a storm? I don't remember ever having this much hauling and random call outs. Its been a good season!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Bx12*

This thing is awesome. Its our first big pusher and I think I get it now. This thing will out plow 3 trucks any day. The downside is getting from site to site @ 12ft wide


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

PS- the WO's on the job board that are coming in are not our own contract customers. Our contract clients were done and hauled within 48 hrs after the storm. Approximately 10". People are worried about flooding and want their snow gone.


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## tyslawnservice

You have snow???


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

We have more snow than normal here. Seasonal average is around 120 cm and we are well over that this year. I'm sure you'll find out about it when our flood waters hit North Dakota again like spring of 2011!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Check out our video on youtube*

This is my first attempt at a youtube video






Let me know what you guys think!!


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## born2farm

Nice video


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

I think the guys at Boss plows owe me some props for it


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## scott3430

Nice vid! Boss says the check's in the mail.


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## sparksrides

awesome video, very professional efficient looking company.


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## THEGOLDPRO

Awesome operation man.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Cat with blower*

This machine is a CAT MTL with a modification we did on a factory CAT snowblower in order to capitalize on driveways. We only use this machine on tight condo routes of 20 or more driveways per condo group. It does over 250 driveways per night in as little as four hours.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

http://www.plowsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=133325&stc=1&d=1391553150


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## cat10

that backdrag looks sweet you should get a vid of that in use


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## wislxer

Less than a minute per drive for 250 drives? Impressive to say the least! Let's see some vid of that ingenious blower mod. Love it! Is it faster than the Kubota with the inverted on the tight drives? How do you like the MTLs? Always wanted one.

BTW, I don't think most of your flood waters would flow to N. Dakota. The Red river, for example, flows north from the states into MB and on to lake Winnipeg.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Lol, I think you are right regarding water flow. MTL is great in winter. Night and day difference to CTL. CTL can't push an empty bucket up a 2% incline when it's slippery. In summer, the guys love it, but the tracks wear quickly. I'm wearing a set every 700-900 hours doing mostly dirt work and snow in off-season. Guys with CTL are getting triple that lifespan. Biggest benefit is operator comfort. I have a bad back and can't bounce around in a wheeled machine for more than a couple hours. With MTL, all day is no problem. 

The skidsteer is better than our kubota M105 tractor/blower in tight area only. I have tested both machines on specific condo groups and found a 25%-50% difference. The properties on the route for the CAT machines are condo groups with small double or single driveways. All short 20 ft long drives, narrow street, high density units. On larger driveways, spread a little further part, the tractor more than doubles the skidsteer.

I will have to make a decent video next time we have a big dump. I have one video now, but it's embarrassing how slow the operator is. It's his first time with the blower on his first driveway and he hasn't caught on to it yet. I'll admit, there is a learning curve. The way we had to make the extra hydraulics work was to have multiple functions on one button. It takes forever to memorize and become fluent. Especially when an operator has it in his mind he would rather just use a bucket and take forever.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

The tractor/blower we have set up on the kubota was really easy to catch on to. I had it down after the first hour. Each hydraulic function has its own button or lever. The 3pt hitch up and down position can be set once, then quickly press down for it to lower to that pre-set position, and the same for raising it. It's a dream to operate. Awesome visibility, warm cab, stereo, and shooting the s#it with the guys over our cb's all night while clearing more driveways per night than I ever thought possible.


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## all ferris

Impressive to say to least


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## TKLAWN

Nice set ups! Perfect for condos.


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## wislxer

Yeah I can see in the pics how close together the drives are in the condo unit. I can see why the MTL would be faster than the big tractor in those narrow quarters and of course I figured when any road speed is needed or for a driveway of any length the Kubota would shine.

Anyhow I love the fleet man! I hope to someday have a tractor/blower combo and an MTL in my arsenal as well. Congrats to you now bring on the vids!

BTW is that blower mod something you guys created in house without outside inspiration/influence? If so get that thing patented! It's great!


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## hardwoodcd

GREAT THREAD!!!!! I love it!!!!! Awesome equipment, pics, video. We def need a vid of that ss blower mod!!!


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## skorum03

Nice stuff. Keep the pics coming.


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## dieselboy01

Very nice fleet and video! What do you use the mini trucks for?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

The cat blower mod I designed and had a shop fab it up. They did a great job making it look factory. There was some trial and error and we ended up having to upgrade all of the hydraulic fittings in the end for big $. 

The mini trucks are for shovel routes. Pretty handy trucks, but the novelty wore off after 5 years of service. Cheap to own and cheap to fuel, just a pain in the butt to fix due to parts availability


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## PSI Services

Very nice! Love the blower mod, keep it up.


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## unhcp

very nice fleet


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## Fwilamosky

great pictures and video, how about some more shots of the shop…looks sweet. Also, how do the tracks do in the snow, I've heard different opinions on speed and gripping ability


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## scott3430

What size is your shop, is it big enough for working on your fleet?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Shop Size*

Here are some more shots of our shop and office. The building is 50x100. 25 x 50ft is offices on two floors. The shop is the 75 x 50. Two 14ft doors and two 8x10ft doors. One of the smaller doors opens to a loading dock where we have permanently placed a semi trailer. The trailer holds 5 skidsteers and keeps them warm when they are plugged in.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*shop size contd*

And more pics. As for the track machines, its important to note the difference between MTL and CTL. We have MTL's and they are much better than CTL's for traction in the snow. I've only compared to a New Holland CTL and it was terrible. It wouldn't push a bucket of snow on a level grade. Everyone hated it.

I would maybe even venture to say, they are equal to or slightly better than wheel machines for traction. Most definitely better operator comfort. The MTL's have a suspension system that takes out bumps and save an operators back.

We had to rent a CAT CTL to replace out of our CAT MTL's that down for tonight's snow event. I will let you know how that works out. I was choked when I saw them drop it in the yard.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*shop size cont'd again*

We changed the layout of a few things in the shop this season, but I don't have any pics of what was done. Its on our list of "to do's" to paint the shop area. I was originally thinking white to help reflect around light, but that would be dirty so fast... Any suggestions?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Loader work*

Here is a shot our loader working


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Load pic*

Another shot of loader work


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Shovelers*

Our shovelers can't seem to get a break. They have worked 27 days in the last 30. Didn't make money on fixed contracts in January.


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## scott3430

I like all the pics of your business. So fixed contract job $ basically went to employees and expenses because you were working so much?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Yeah, thats right. The numbers of hours worked was over the number of hours estimated in the price. It happens a lot as winter is so volatile from one year to the next or even month by month. We have data recorded for the last 7 years that I use to price from.


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## scott3430

Never know what winter will be like till the middle to end of winter. And by then were getting ready for spring season, lol. 
How many employees do you have on your winter payroll?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

In winter we are somewhere around 35 guys. Summer 55+.


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## LuckyPlower

nice set-up


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## stang2244

Gr8WhiteNorth;1759652 said:


> In winter we are somewhere around 35 guys. Summer 55+.


With those 35 guys during the winter, do keep them all on full time? Some full time/some part time? Some salaried/some hourly?

Just curious as to how larger companies structure things during the winter months and the inconsistent work. Thanks!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

About 15 of our staff is full time during winter, the others are on call. We pay a wage premium for those on call in hopes they stick around. Things can be hit and miss and we lose good talent from year to year if we can't get enough hours for them.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Newest video*

Check out our newest winter video!


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## scott3430

Great vid!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

It's a lot of fun to shoot the vids. The guys are pumped when they see themselves on youtube!


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## RiverCityLC

very nice set up!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

There are some shots of the skidsteer blower for those who asked for it


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

2015 snow video for residential


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Ad pics for our local marketing efforts


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

More ad pics for local marketing


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## jhall22guitar

Cool video!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Thanks, I just set it up on youtube and facebook.






Facebook page = https://www.facebook.com/Livingstone-Landscaping-Ltd-347657941922216/?fref=ts


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## Superior L & L

Cool video, but Wow. managing that many options for residential would give me a headache. We offer 1.5 Plowing and shovel of walk. Take it or leave it.


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## newhere

Superior L & L;2048427 said:


> Cool video, but Wow. managing that many options for residential would give me a headache. We offer 1.5 Plowing and shovel of walk. Take it or leave it.


That's exactly what I thought also. Way to complicated over a driveway.


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## jhall22guitar

I think its easier than we are all thinking, From what I see the services are either Everything All the time, 1" trigger, some parts, or just driveway.

Setup the route like you normally would, when it starts falling and you start the "everything all the time" if there isn't an inch you skip the sites with it until there is an inch, then restart the route once finished and do them all. Something like that. Sheet tells you if your guy has to shovel or not.


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## newhere

jhall22guitar;2048448 said:


> I think its easier than we are all thinking, From what I see the services are either Everything All the time, 1" trigger, some parts, or just driveway.
> 
> Setup the route like you normally would, when it starts falling and you start the "everything all the time" if there isn't an inch you skip the sites with it until there is an inch, then restart the route once finished and do them all. Something like that. Sheet tells you if your guy has to shovel or not.


So your employees must have a doctorate right? Mine don't. I have drives we don't have to shovel at and I just let them do it anyways because they will skip the wrong house.


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## Superior L & L

jhall22guitar;2048448 said:


> I think its easier than we are all thinking, From what I see the services are either Everything All the time, 1" trigger, some parts, or just driveway.
> 
> Setup the route like you normally would, when it starts falling and you start the "everything all the time" if there isn't an inch you skip the sites with it until there is an inch, then restart the route once finished and do them all. Something like that. Sheet tells you if your guy has to shovel or not.


Just reading the process irritates me. All or nothing for us. The amount of effort to ensure everyone gets what they signed up for is not worth the return in my opinion


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

I'm just being greedy. I want all the customers; the ones that can afford $200/mo X6 to do everything from the lightest skiff and the ones who can only afford the minimum for $400 for the season. That works out to about 50 full service outings I get paid for vs 20 on the 1" customers.

If you really want to have your mind blown, I'll even tell you the secret to each shovel crew route sheet- the rows across the top read ADDRESS, DESCRIPTION (what to clear), TIME IN, TIME OUT, AND SALT USED. The customers signed up for 1" service are highlighted in a different color and are skipped if there isn't an inch. We go out once per 24 hour period during an event. 
In Canada, we wouldn't need a doctorate to figure that out. We learn how to read in grade 1!

The reality is that we started out doing full service for every snow event, but the cost has climbed to a point where people are having a tough time justifying it. The 1" option makes the service affordable for more people. Having both options gets us the high end and the thrifty customers and maximizes our revenue potential in a set radius.


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## Chineau

That's not greedy, just good business our product is service the more ways you can deliver the better for you.


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## scott3430

You guys get any snow yet up there?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Nothing yet. Some coming early next week according to the weatherman. I don't think it will stick around with how warm it is still


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

2 new track machines to replace our CAT's. It was a tough call changing brands with the improvements CAT made this year, but we have 4 other Bobcat wheel machines with piles of hours on them and rarely have breakdowns.


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## jhall22guitar

Nice machines, trying to get my boss to get us one at work.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

I'm curious how the snow tracks will fair. It was a pain in the a$$ putting them on by the sounds of it.


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## jhall22guitar

Ill have to stay tuned for your feedback on them. If we get a skid for work we will have to be careful and decide what we want, our lots and properties are a mix of dirt, stone driveways, and paved areas to plow.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

CAT made a lot of improvements with this year's machine compared to the 257B3's we traded in, but I just wanted to keep our whole fleet one color. We've had better luck with the Bobcat machines.

That said, CAT dramatically widened the hydraulic hose locations where the lines pass through the frame, making hose replacement much easier on the new models. The 2011 machines continually rubbed the hoses at these points until they split. Only when you take the lines off could you shroud it. It was a huge battle getting them off and even worse getting them back on so we only did it as the hoses failed.

We burned out 2 hydraulic motors for running the tracks and only 1 was warrantied. The tracks on the MTL's were a $4,000 touch per machine every year because the lugs that held them onto the wheels would break. The CAT and BOBCAT CTL's have steel contact points on the wheels and should last much longer.

After doing the math, the dollars saved in repairs will cover the payments for the next 4 years anyway. Our season in Manitoba is too short to have our equipment sitting in the shop waiting for parts. The 4 other Bobcat skidsteers we own don't need near that much attention and they have 2x the hours!

The new options on these machines is pretty incredible. A/C, stereo, backup camera, maintenance reminders, startup procedure for dummies that doesn't let them drive until the engine systems are up to operational temps, etc

Our oldest bobcat is a 2003 with 8800 hours on it. Options were door, windows, heat, and a 2-speed!!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Also, check out the ducting on the CAT when the cab is up. I never had an operator complain about cold feet in the CATs, but I see Bobcat hasn't done anything to correct the issue. We'll see what kind of complaints roll in the next time its -50'c (-58'F)


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

The cabs are stupid loud in these things, but noticeably louder in the Bobcat


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## Superior L & L

That bobcat is a tank !! We have a t-590 and it is great


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## Hysert

Gr8WhiteNorth;2048802 said:


> I'm curious how the snow tracks will fair. It was a pain in the a$$ putting them on by the sounds of it.


The SD tracks work well.. we have them on a re SVL90 and going on season 2. I've never ran polar treads but the SDs are a great tracks for year round work..


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

We planned to only run these tracks in winter, then put the stock ones back on every spring. My mechanic is already grumbling!


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## jhall22guitar

Gr8WhiteNorth;2050170 said:


> We planned to only run these tracks in winter, then put the stock ones back on every spring. My mechanic is already grumbling!


Tell him its what you pay him for! :drink: and maybe give him a beer when he's done.


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## scott3430

Nice Bobcat ctl. Last year I had a T650 and it is a great skid.


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## born2farm

looks like some paint is about to be sprayed?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*New goodies arrived*

The reconditioned Trackless MT5 finally arrived. We got a snow blower, brush, rotary mower, and plow for it as well.

The new CAT Loader will replace our 1985 Volvo 4300B. The new loader may be smaller in stature and about 8,000 lbs lighter, but its got about the same power, lifting capacity, and higher speed than the old Vo. Its amazing how much more maneuverable this compact wheel loaders are.

The larger of the two excavators is getting a skidsteer bucket to load salt into our sander unit. The adapter pins in to be able to run typical bobcat skidsteer attachments. Its was built by professional amateurs in-house so its only moderately sketchy!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Can't forget the most important part of the arsenal


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Yep, we hope to paint tomorrow. These two items were bought in Ontario last year.....the salt capital of the world I'm guessing?!?


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## ScubaSteve728

You will love the mini loader I have many hours on our 908H2 so maneuverable, and has great visibility, being able to tow it with a one ton is great as well. We run one all season for our snow and landscaping and everyone loves it, just about anyone could get in it and be comfortable with it within a few hours. Myself being a bigger guy would much rather run the mini loader than a skid any day/. We run 9 foot Kage plows on ours and the ones we rent for the winter, we also have a mulch bucket for moving and stacking snow. Great machines even though they are small and light if you keep up with the storm you will be fine. 
Very nice equipment as well.. I am looking forward to pictures or videos of the mini ex loading salt lol


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## Aura Lawns

Awesome setup! Could you post some close up pics of those work order forms and the board you use? Really impressive operation you've got! Keep it up!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Shop Work*

I've attached a few pics of where I left off last post. Finally getting some paint sprayed on the blower this AM and hopefully the bobcat later today.

The last outdoor kitchen is awaiting the concrete counter top. The pics show the tedious process of polishing.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Any Star Wars fans?


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## born2farm

Dont you worry about overspray on the tractor while painting the blower?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Tractor was moved in after. Everything is so dirty right now, no paint drift will stick anyway. 

We did fab up a temporary paint booth to use for the final white coats tomorrow. We have concrete counter sealing and wood staining to be done at the same time.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

This is the make-shift paint booth. It actually works well.

The other pics are a finished shot of the counter tops.....and some quality whiskey. Crown Royal Northern Harvest- it won Best Whiskey of the World year 2016. The crop is harvested right here in the Province of Manitoba!!


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## Hysert

Gr8WhiteNorth;2078493 said:


> This is the make-shift paint booth. It actually works well.
> 
> The other pics are a finished shot of the counter tops.....and some quality whiskey. Crown Royal Northern Harvest- it won Best Whiskey of the World year 2016. The crop is harvested right here in the Province of Manitoba!!


Ummmm my mouth is watering... northern harvest eh??? Looks like I'm going back to the liquor store tmr... just opened a bottle of cognac for the holidays...


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## ponyboy

Would like to see pic of excavator with skid bucket sounds like a way for me to free up another skid fir pushing instead of loading


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

*Skidsteer #2 all painted up*

Just got the logo's installed today. Two machines painted, two more to go. These things take forever to go through.

Check out the video of Minions shining up the logo


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## ponyboy

Very nice 
Good to see people take pride in their machines 

Any chance of pics of excavator with bucket for loading


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

I'm waiting for the guys to hook it up. We haven't got snow here in over a month, so they have just been loading with the loader. I will see about taking a shot of it not connected for you before i leave today


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## scott3430

It's amazing what fresh paint will do for a machine, looks brand new!


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## DellDoug

like the look of your operation


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Newest video on youtube. 




I made another one about a minute longer that I will put on our website, but this is the one for social media ads.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Home show time!!!
Hey check out this video I made with Quik: https://quik.gopro.com/v/qXUvXPl9oq/


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## shawn_

Great stuff, cool videos & amazing fleet.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

It's been a while since I've posted anything. Been super busy with work, life, and all that fun stuff.

I will have to get a full fleet pic sometime soon.

A lot of our machines have been traded on new.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

We just did a deal on 2 new tractors. One has arrived and it's pretty stellar. They are kubota M5-111 and M6-141. I'm currently researching the best option for front plow or expandable pusher box. The bigger tractor has a loader, but I'll have to do an undermount frame on the other.

Updates from our 2005's have been fairly significant. Travel speed, controls, power, emissions, cab comfort are a few of the most notable improvements.

I ordered a 92" Pronovost cyclone to try out. I Should have ordered two since I've listed both 92" inverted snowblowers we have for sale this AM!!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Our current snow fleet is:
-8 shovel crew trucks
-8 plow trucks
-2 sand trucks
-1 liquid app truck
-MT5 Trackless for city sidewalks
-Holder C-480 with inverted blower
-2 Ag tractors
-3 dump trucks
-7 Skidsteers

We need a bigger shop and yard


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## tpendagast

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> *Bx12*
> 
> This thing is awesome. Its our first big pusher and I think I get it now. This thing will out plow 3 trucks any day. The downside is getting from site to site @ 12ft wide
> 
> View attachment 125685
> 
> 
> View attachment 125686
> 
> 
> View attachment 125687


We can get away with 12
The 14s get trailer to a site and stay there 
Not entirely sure loss of portability is worth the 2 extra feet


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

We don’t even want to risk driving it around. We leave the 12ft on one of our biggest lots. After selling our big loader and replacing with two smaller Cat loaders, the 12ft it about as big as needed for it. 

The other Cat has a 3200 series HLA Snow Wing. It’s a pretty slick unit, but almost a machine in itself with all the hydraulics and electronics. 

An expandable box pusher would be a little more straight forward I’m guessing, but I’ve never used one to compare


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## tpendagast

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> We don't even want to risk driving it around. We leave the 12ft on one of our biggest lots. After selling our big loader and replacing with two smaller Cat loaders, the 12ft it about as big as needed for it.
> 
> The other Cat has a 3200 series HLA Snow Wing. It's a pretty slick unit, but almost a machine in itself with all the hydraulics and electronics.
> 
> An expandable box pusher would be a little more straight forward I'm guessing, but I've never used one to compare


We have a L120 with a permit for width 
Don't have a problem transporting it 
The whole machine is pretty wide in general 
Most of our loaders are L90s

We have a 16 foot pusher somewhere but I think it's loaned out 
I've seen it maybe twice in 5 years... only time I see it, it's in the shop getting a weld


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Check out the link to see the new tractor in action out for its first shift. Newbie operator doing pretty good I'd say.


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## cjames808

I guess we don’t have many of these inverted blowers because in America land neighbors would be like “keep urfuking snow off my property” and could be armed to the teeth. 

Amazing gear!


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

cjames808 said:


> I guess we don't have many of these inverted blowers because in America land neighbors would be like "keep urfuking snow off my property" and could be armed to the teeth.
> 
> Amazing gear!


The biggest complaint I get is the residual snow left in the street. I've ordered a new Pronovost Cyclone to hopefully prevent this

Check out this video I made yesterday: 




I finally got my first full shift in this beast


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

New sidewalk machine arrived.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

In the crate video


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Out of the Box


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Test Drive in some snow


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## Avalanche 2500

Nice, you even let the boss drive it ? turns nice !


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## shawn_

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> Test Drive in some snow


How much does it cost? Their website says coming soon.... now links are working no information available


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

shawn_ said:


> How much does it cost? Their website says coming soon.... now links are working no information available


Yes, their website got hacked and they are working to get it back up. The Maverick is around $8k US. Worth every penny. 
We just used one in a storm yesterday and it did the job of 3 shovelers with one man. Probably more, I couldn't believe it.


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## Green mentorship

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> Yes, their website got hacked and they are working to get it back up. The Maverick is around $8k US. Worth every penny.
> We just used one in a storm yesterday and it did the job of 3 shovelers with one man. Probably more, I couldn't believe it.


Pro tip: don't run metal edge on concrete walks. The edge will rust the walks.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

This might be old news by now, but the folks at Toro and Boss slapped a patent infringement lawsuit on the Rogue guys. They stopped production and it looks like they went bust. I wonder how long that patent has left? And how ventrac and all the other guys copying weren’t affected.

too bad, the rogue is an awesome machine and 30% cheaper than the Snowrator. I’d have one for every crew if we could still get them


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Bit of an update. I'm gonna have to get the whole fleet together for a pic one day soon.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

We took a big leap of faith going into 2020. we had outgrown our existing building and were renting 2 acres across the street. Our employees had to park down side streets and walk up to 5 blocks to get to our shop.

Looking back at the photos, this place was a steaming pile of horse dung. You can imagine how much work this will be to turn around.


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## Hydromaster

When will we see the “rebbel” in the line up?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

There were 3 main buildings and a pole shed. The pole shed is 6000 sqft and would become our repair shop. The big arched building is 16,000 sqft, the store front is 4800sqft, and the building that connects the two is 2000 sqft.

We had our work cut out for us.

And 4 months to do the Reno.


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## shawn_

That’s awesome! Best of luck with the purchase . Where are you out of?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Hydromaster said:


> When will we see the "rebbel" in the line up?


No such luck. At best, it will hold my shovel.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

shawn_ said:


> That's awesome! Best of luck with the purchase . Where are you out of?


Brandon, MB Canada


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## Hydromaster

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> No such luck. At best, it will hold my shovel.


Lol I wuz talking aboot the truck....


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

No time to waste, we got to it. And plowed snow in between.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

We worked 7 days a week. Last winter was a blur.


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## Ajlawn1

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> too bad, the rogue is an awesome machine and 30% cheaper than the Snowrator. I'd have one for every crew if we could still get them


All that nice equipment, I cannot believe how you're still hung up on that rogue...

Love the arched building, all looks great!Thumbs Up


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

The arch building floor was crumbing and would be dangerous for the forklift to lift heavy pallets of brick as high as we wanted. We hired out a local outfit to get that done for us this fall

the store was stocked and starting to look like something by the middle of summer.

The COVID thing showed Up and made life a bit tougher.

t


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

On July 5, this little bridge in the background became a problem. 
the Province decided it was time to replace it.

At that point, we owned all the way to the bridge. we had 3.5 acres between the end of the building vs the bridge. It was ours.

They came into our office and told me they were taking our site and bulldozing it in August. Their offer will follow. But it didn't come.

One month notice. 78 employees without a place to work out of.

The fight started.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

We knew some bridge work was going to happen when we got our permits.

Nobody knew they wanted to add a bike path and make it curve a few thousand feet towards our building.

But, it turns out......there was a process that should have been followed by the Province. They were supposed to keep me informed as a stakeholder. They ignored my emails and meeting requests since we bought the place in Nov 2019.

The project got a little slap on the peepee. The date of expropriation got bumped back to Nov 1 2020.

They agreed to build a retaining wall to let us keep our building. We needed that 3.5 acres to develop our store and add a garden centre with a parking lot. Staff parking, etc.

f'ing bike path.


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## Western1

Heard similar before


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

so, I redesigned our plan to make the new site work. Downsized the greenhouse from 14,000 sqft to 8000 and moved it from the bridge side to the side our landscape crew trucks/trailers were supposed to park. The nursery will be 14,000 sqft instead of 20,000.

The change left us no room for landscape crew trcks parking, dump truck parking, or staff parking.

Then, the City refused our greenhouse permit because we had no staff parking. I needed land fast, but there was nowhere within 5 blocks away for sale. I thought we were screwed.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Then the phone rang.

An old voice on the other end introduced himself as the guy who owns the run down old buildings next door.

He wanted to sell.

We signed a deal to buy it. Then doing our Due Dilligence discovered some bad things. Very bad things.

There was environmental contamination, which could lead to an expensive cleanup.

2 of the 3 Buildings were ok, but needed work. The two story is very rough. This building has Been flooded for the past few years and left to freeze. Its a beautiful brick Building, but the main floor is collapsing since the posts and beams have collapsed in the basement.

we revised our Offer.
it took a month of heated debate, but we got it for a price that allowed to do the cleanup.....if it's not widespread.

The structural issue is my big concern now. Can we save it?

demo is .....stupid money. Insane money. But saving it isn't cheap either.

we hired a Structural Engineer to review it.

His initial findings were positive, but He wasn't able to evaluate the foundation until we stood up the post and beams again.


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## Aerospace Eng

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> Then the phone rang.
> 
> An old voice on the other end introduced himself as the guy who owns the run down old buildings next door.
> 
> He wanted to sell.
> 
> We signed a deal to buy it. Then doing our Due Dilligence discovered some bad things. Very bad things.
> 
> There was environmental contamination, which could lead to an expensive cleanup.
> 
> 2 of the 3 Buildings were ok, but needed work. The two story is very rough. This building has Been flooded for the past few years and left to freeze. Its a beautiful brick Building, but the main floor is collapsing since the posts and beams have collapsed in the basement.
> 
> we revised our Offer.
> it took a month of heated debate, but we got it for a price that allowed to do the cleanup.....if it's not widespread.
> 
> The structural issue is my big concern now. Can we save it?
> 
> demo is .....stupid money. Insane money. But saving it isn't cheap either.
> 
> we hired a Structural Engineer to review it.
> 
> His initial findings were positive, but He wasn't able to evaluate the foundation until we stood up the post and beams again.
> 
> View attachment 210999
> View attachment 211000
> View attachment 211001
> View attachment 211002
> View attachment 211003
> View attachment 211004
> View attachment 211005


The old owner isn't responsible for environmental remediation?


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## Ajlawn1

Aerospace Eng said:


> The old owner isn't responsible for environmental remediation?


Thought the same, maybe different in Canada... I thought once you do your due diligence and have a phase I you're "covered."


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

The main steel posts and beams are still in place, but the wood beams in between them all have fallen over.

The Engineer wants us to fix this so he can evaluate the foundation.

we were surprised to find out the Douglas Fir timber's were still in perfect condition despite laying in water for the last few years and being 110 years old.

We sized some 45,000 lbs steel teleposts so we can stand the beams back up.

im hoping for a good outcome with the basement walls and concrete piles so we don't have to spend anymore money.

As you can guess, we are tapped out and the bank won't lend on contaminated land.

nothing like going "all in", then hitting these obstacles. plus COVID BS.


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## Aerospace Eng

What’s the contamination?

Hydrocarbons?

Pesticides?

Industrial waste?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Ajlawn1 said:


> Thought the same, maybe different in Canada... I thought once you do your due diligence and have a phase I your "covered."


The old owners would have been responsible, but we signed terms into the deal excusing them for responsibility, in exchange for the reduction in price we estimated for remediation.

This was solely for expediting the closing date so we could keep our business going. It's risky, but the City has the authority to revoke our occupancy in our newly renovated building, so we really had no choice.


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## Mark Oomkes

Beautiful building and reno.

PS Toro bought Ventrac.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Aerospace Eng said:


> What's the contamination?
> 
> Hydrocarbons?
> 
> Pesticides?
> 
> Industrial waste?


Benzine(a) pyrene . I may be off on the spelling on that.

i should add, the entire acre lot is capped with 6" of concrete Pad, so there is no human contact possible.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Mark Oomkes said:


> Beautiful building and reno.
> 
> PS Toro bought Ventrac.


That explains it.


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## Aerospace Eng

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> Benzine(a) pyrene . I may be off on the spelling on that.
> 
> i should add, the entire acre lot is capped with 6" of concrete Pad, so there is no human contact possible.


So what do they want you to do for remediation?

I'm not an expert, but from talking with our environmental group over the years, technology and creativity have advanced rapidly over the last two decades.

For example creosote contamination at an abandoned plant was threatening groundwater. Rather than digging everything up, the site planted some special pines, which were very thirsty. They then injected clean water around the site.

Rather than going down to the groundwater, the contamination was drawn up and absorbed by the trees. It was a years long project, but way cheaper than the traditional approach.

Obviously, your situation is different, but there may be creative solutions that haven't been considered.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

We got our letter from the Province telling us they have subdivided our land and changed the title of our land AND building to their name. And there would be an Offer to come.

Well that's a nice deal for them, kinda like an IOU.

i looked a little closer when they said "AND building". Turns out the drawing guy put the new property line through the middle of our store front. The purple line shows what our new property line is supposed to be. Black dotted line was what they gave Land titles office. They assured me it will be "abandoned back" to me after the project is completed in 2 years.

well, the bank didn't like that answer, so they stopped our next dispersal until we get it figured. So that's been fun.

I had the greenhouse kit ordered from the manufacturer months ago, it's to be delivered Jan 15, the foundation is done and ready to go when it arrives.

I'll post a photo of the proposed layout once I'm back at the office. 
what a ride 2020 has been for us all.

wishing everyone the best for 2021


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## Aerospace Eng

Gr8WhiteNorth said:


> Benzine(a) pyrene . I may be off on the spelling on that.
> 
> i should add, the entire acre lot is capped with 6" of concrete Pad, so there is no human contact possible.


Benzo(a)Pyrene?


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Aerospace Eng said:


> So what do they want you to do for remediation?
> 
> I'm not an expert, but from talking with our environmental group over the years, technology and creativity have advanced rapidly over the last two decades.
> 
> For example creosote contamination at an abandoned plant was threatening groundwater. Rather than digging everything up, the site planted some special pines, which were very thirsty. They then injected clean water around the site.
> 
> Rather than going down to the groundwater, the contamination was drawn up and absorbed by the trees. It was a years long project, but way cheaper than the traditional approach.
> 
> Obviously, your situation is different, but there may be creative solutions that haven't been considered.


we need all of the space for parking, so it will likely just be digging it out. We can pile is somewhere at an approved site and it just breaks down in sunlight.

MB Conservation is ok with the 6" concrete cap as an acceptable management solution, but the bank wants it gone if we are ever to borrow funds or resell.

we can perform all of the work, just not while we are so busy at the moment.

you are right, benzo(a)Pyrene Is the stuff. There was an old heating oil tank buried in a spot that likely leaked. This was revealed in the Phase 1, then confirmed in the Phase 2. the extent of the leak appears to not exceed 25ft radius. but, that's a guess, based on test holes.

Interestingly, the same corporation owned the place for 108 years. It was a family, who had a deadbeat management company looking after the place the past while. When the family member looking after things passed away, the other cousin was the guy who contacted me. They didn't know they owned it and had never been there.

it was originally a brewery, then a lumber depot. It backs onto a railway main line.


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## FordFisherman

Best of luck to you in 2021. Thats a hell of an undertaking-you guys do great work!


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## thelettuceman

FordFisherman said:


> Best of luck to you in 2021. Thats a hell of an undertaking-you guys do great work!


Times Two


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## Aerospace Eng

If you don’t need the fill, and probably if you do, hauling it off is probably your best bet. 

If you need the fill, one older remediation technique for hydrocarbon contaminated soil is to bring a kiln on site. I’m familiar with this one, since I have looked at these machines that careless operators destroyed. while remediating an island in AK.

Typically, the system is on two semi trailers and a towed conveyor. The dirt is dumped onto a conveyor, which dumps it into a kiln on one trsiler that looks like a cement truck body and has conveyor flights inside. The dirt gradually makes it from one end to another. There is a pre-defined residence time to burn off the volatiles, so when the dirt makes it out the other end, it is reusable. 

The second semi trailer has a baghouse to filter fines from the exhaust.


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## LapeerLandscape

What a great transformation. I really like to see progress like this it's just too bad we all have so many hoops to jump through to get us there.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc.

Good luck in 2021 @Gr8WhiteNorth. Man, provincial government as neighbors to the west and federal government to the south.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Aerospace Eng said:


> If you don't need the fill, and probably if you do, hauling it off is probably your best bet.
> 
> If you need the fill, one older remediation technique for hydrocarbon contaminated soil is to bring a kiln on site. I'm familiar with this one, since I have looked at these machines that careless operators destroyed. while remediating an island in AK.
> 
> Typically, the system is on two semi trailers and a towed conveyor. The dirt is dumped onto a conveyor, which dumps it into a kiln on one trsiler that looks like a cement truck body and has conveyor flights inside. The dirt gradually makes it from one end to another. There is a pre-defined residence time to burn off the volatiles, so when the dirt makes it out the other end, it is reusable.
> 
> The second semi trailer has a baghouse to filter fines from the exhaust.


Interesting. Depending on our contamination level, we may be able to dump in the local landfill. If it's higher than they allow, I have to haul two hours away. Your kiln would be a good alternative if that's the case


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## Mark Oomkes

I'll never understand the stupidity of hauling contaminated soil from one site to another and contaminating that site. 

I know, they have barriers and what not, but still, the concept just makes no sense.


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'll never understand the stupidity of hauling contaminated soil from one site to another and contaminating that site.
> 
> I know, they have barriers and what not, but still, the concept just makes no sense.


Reminds me of the days when cars had a smog pump that just pumped air int the exhaust. Isn't the exhaust just going out into the air anyway.

Sorry to go off topic.


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## Gr8WhiteNorth

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'll never understand the stupidity of hauling contaminated soil from one site to another and contaminating that site.
> 
> I know, they have barriers and what not, but still, the concept just makes no sense.


Especially since the remedy is just leaving it out in the sunshine


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## Gr8WhiteNorth




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