# Building salt storage



## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Building a new salt storage area and curious what ppl prefer for there floors. Concrete or tar? The current one is on a old concrete chicken coop floor and the building is not going to last. What holds up better to the salt and weight of the equiment?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

viper881;1016247 said:


> Building a new salt storage area and curious what ppl prefer for there floors. Concrete or tar? The current one is on a old concrete chicken coop floor and the building is not going to last. What holds up better to the salt and weight of the equiment?


Concrete


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

I have an asphalt floor about 6" thick. Its as good as new after 20 years. But it would depend on the weight of the equipment your going to run on it. Mine has only seen a skidsteer and tractor.


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## ColumbiaLand (Sep 1, 2008)

Concrete is hd and pavement will also work, what the better price and avalablity to u?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Concrete is preferred, but asphalt will work. You just have to be careful with using skids on it--will deteriorate quickly.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Westhardt Corp.;1016433 said:


> Concrete is preferred, but asphalt will work. You just have to be careful with using skids on it--will deteriorate quickly.


Skidsteers on asphalt will deteriorate the asphalt?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

In my experience, yes. Now, in fairness, the operator makes all the difference here. Operators that make a ton of zero-turns will tear the asphalt up, especially 2" skin coats (very common here). The constant shearing/scrubbing really takes a toll on the binder, it seems. I will say that we have not had a pile on "really nice new" asphalt, so I can't say how it would hold up. But even with small piles on decent parking lots, I've seen chunking from where the guys would make their spin to load.

I usually put some material down to ease the load on the surface and/or use the bucket to lift the front axle, but that can also damage the surface if done incorrectly. At which point I slap a sewer/water contractor's name on the machine, put up some cones and just dig the lot up. And then leave.

:laughing:


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I use asphalt as well and it holds up well even under the weight of the 580SM and rear axle of the live bottom delivery trucks.I Don't use anything that sits and spins.:laughing:


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

OK not to yank your chain , but I thought we had found a new Salt vs. Concrete such as Skidsteer vs. Asphalt. We all know how Salt eats concrete? Oh No, skidsteers eat asphalt! 
Now, properly laid and compacted asphalt and a good mix of asphalt, should not be affected by skidsteer use. There are many variables, heat, turning, weight, etc. But after 20 years mine, having never been sealed, remains in like new condition. I would NEVER recommend 2" of anything ! Depending on availability of asphalt or concrete, I wood choose asphalt. If it were a choice of money, I wood choose concrete. Mine ended up asphalt because I had my own roller, truck and the batch plant was 2 miles away. If I had to pay for someone to lay the asphalt, I would have went with the concrete, because I would have poured it myself. IMO 6" asphalt = 4" concrete?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Exactly. It's not the weight that kills it (unless it's a crap skin coat, in which case it can crack). It's the zero-radius turning that does it. It's like spinning on gravel--it'll take the weight fine, but you'll tear it up quick doing donuts.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Kubota 8540;1017054 said:


> OK not to yank your chain , but I thought we had found a new Salt vs. Concrete such as Skidsteer vs. Asphalt. We all know how Salt eats concrete? Oh No, skidsteers eat asphalt!
> Now, properly laid and compacted asphalt and a good mix of asphalt, should not be affected by skidsteer use. There are many variables, heat, turning, weight, etc. But after 20 years mine, having never been sealed, remains in like new condition. I would NEVER recommend 2" of anything ! Depending on availability of asphalt or concrete, I wood choose asphalt. If it were a choice of money, I wood choose concrete. Mine ended up asphalt because I had my own roller, truck and the batch plant was 2 miles away. If I had to pay for someone to lay the asphalt, I would have went with the concrete, because I would have poured it myself. IMO 6" asphalt = 4" concrete?


Dammit....you beat me (didn't see post). That's exactly it. I suspect we were dealing with low-quality asphalt, but felt it was worth mentioning. The average guy tends to notice bad asphalt...after it starts tearing up.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

And salt only eats concrete when it gets _very hungry_.

Have you not been following that thread??


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Three requirements if your going to lay some asphalt.........1) HOTTER than the hubs of hell.....2) A good mix.........3) Compaction

A state spec topping mix is best and what I used.

I do have a concrete berm around the base of the asphalt, that salt has laid on and against for 20 years and has had ZERO affect on. I guess the salt I buy is not hungry salt? And that concrete was less than 3 months old when the salt was put on it? So, from my first hand experience ,I would say asphalt or concrete, it won't make a difference. Its what is more affordable or available.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

4) A properly prepared base 

It is amazing how well the same material can turn out when you actually put it down correctly. We have so many hacks up here (in every profession) it's rather disgusting. Almost as disgusting as the people who knowingly hire them because they're cheap....durrr...


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Westhardt Corp.;1017096 said:


> 4) A properly prepared base
> 
> It is amazing how well the same material can turn out when you actually put it down correctly. We have so many hacks up here (in every profession) it's rather disgusting. Almost as disgusting as the people who knowingly hire them because they're cheap....durrr...


I see it all the time, either no base prep, wrong temp for asphalt, wrong thickness, etc. What a waste.

I guess I didn't mention the 10" of base rock or the 6" of compacted CA-6 under the 6" of asphalt? Just figured I only want to do it once? But should have used galvanized fasteners and brackets to connect the walls to the concrete.....cheapa$$ :laughing:

And I'm a carpenter by trade....... :laughing:


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

I remember you mentioning those...why, off all the silly places to save a buck...

At least they're replaceable. If you drilled the holes deep enough, anyway.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

(you should see my driveway--4" asphalt, with a base that must have not been rolled....at all, It's now hollow, and cracks under a car)


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

I love how the guys around here do the asphalt, it looks to be 4" thick on the edges, but only 1-2" in the middle. They don't take the crown off the gravel before laying the blacktop. If your in one of those subdivisions, they probably just pushed the gravel in with a skidsteer, back dragged, a little plate compacting if your lucky, then laid the asphalt.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Westhardt Corp.;1017113 said:


> I remember you mentioning those...why, off all the silly places to save a buck...
> 
> At least they're replaceable. If you drilled the holes deep enough, anyway.


Honestly can say, I don't have a clue why. But they did last for 20 years. Should be a easy fix. But I'm going to do a little remodel this spring now that the shed is EMPTY. Going to raise the roof 4' so, I'll take care of the other problems while I'm at it.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Hate to hijack the thread but you're hitting on my idea a few years ago of Pre-Snow-Removal. Installing Heated driveways With the size of the lots now. I'm thinking about, thinking about it again:laughing:
Year round snow removal. Plowing in the winter, installing heated drives in the summer! Maybe I can be the next SIMA Snow Warrior.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Mr.Markus;1017136 said:


> Hate to hijack the thread but you're hitting on my idea a few years ago of Pre-Snow-Removal. Installing Heated driveways With the size of the lots now. I'm thinking about, thinking about it again:laughing:
> Year round snow removal. Plowing in the winter, installing heated drives in the summer! Maybe I can be the next SIMA Snow Warrior.


That would take a huge source of heat for a driveway. I know they have them, but wow the cost to install and operate? Before I put heat in my driveway I would move to a sunny sandy beach location and become a sand groomer? :laughing:


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Hydronics are not as expensive as you might think, if done right. (so I'm told)


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Kubota 8540;1017144 said:


> That would take a huge source of heat for a driveway. I know they have them, but wow the cost to install and operate? Before I put heat in my driveway I would move to a sunny sandy beach location and become a sand groomer? :laughing:


Back in the 80's an old boss of mine saw them plowing sand off the roads in Australia. Apparently it blows off the beach and covers rds and parking lots. He was gonna buy AC for all the trucks and move his operation down there.:laughing:


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Westhardt Corp.;1017152 said:


> Hydronics are not as expensive as you might think, if done right. (so I'm told)


I would think it would be the same as the heat tubing in my shop floor, but it still takes a lot of btu's. They also have the electric mats to put in the concrete when pouring, hopefully you have cheap electric? Sand groomer would still be best?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Sand groomer would be best. WTF was I thinking?

:laughing:


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Mr.Markus;1017160 said:


> Back in the 80's an old boss of mine saw them plowing sand off the roads in Australia. Apparently it blows off the beach and covers rds and parking lots. He was gonna buy AC for all the trucks and move his operation down there.:laughing:


Way to cool.........Sunny, Warm, Sandy, and Plowing......all my favorites.


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## 04chevy2500 (Oct 7, 2009)

during this wonderful wind storm this past week our salt shed was destroyed. we have an asphalt base with concrete blocks 4 high. it works great! the problem now is that the roof is gone. it was a completely framed joist roof. it blew about 150 feet in the 70 mph winds. now we are going to raise it up another block or two and trying to decide if we should do the car port for the roof or build another joist roof. any thoughts or pictures?


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

04chevy2500;1017276 said:


> during this wonderful wind storm this past week our salt shed was destroyed. we have an asphalt base with concrete blocks 4 high. it works great! the problem now is that the roof is gone. it was a completely framed joist roof. it blew about 150 feet in the 70 mph winds. now we are going to raise it up another block or two and trying to decide if we should do the car port for the roof or build another joist roof. any thoughts or pictures?


I don't think the roof type makes a great deal of difference. It probably caught the wind like a sail. Doors might have prevented that and would also keep the snow and rain out.

Mine has sliding doors like a pole building has. Slide them shut and the salt stays nice and dry.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Tarp. Roofs are overrated.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

No, No, and No to the tarp theory. Did that the first year with bulk. No fun in the weee hours shoveling the snow off the tarp to get to the pile. Did I mention the NO to the tarp? I don't care how cheap the tarp is........................


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Free gym membership included with every tarp purchase.

(read the fine print)


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I agree close it in with sliding barn doors, track on the inside or bite the bullet on overhead doors. You won't regret it.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Mr.Markus;1017335 said:


> I agree close it in with sliding barn doors, track on the inside or bite the bullet on overhead doors. You won't regret it.


I had overhead doors for the first few years but the springs/tracks kept rusting and breaking. So I changed over to sliding doors. Now if I could get openers and a remote I wouldn't have to get out of the cab at all.


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks for the input everyone


Kubota 8540;1017340 said:


> I had overhead doors for the first few years but the springs/tracks kept rusting and breaking. So I changed over to sliding doors. Now if I could get openers and a remote I wouldn't have to get out of the cab at all.


Good luck with the remote doors!


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

viper881;1017364 said:


> Thanks for the input everyone
> 
> Good luck with the remote doors!


We were of help or gave input? ...:laughing: OOps.


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## 04chevy2500 (Oct 7, 2009)

i have seen some of the garages that you can order the doors longer and then i was thinking of just rigging up a pole along the bottom and a pulley at the top to pull the tarp up on the front. but definitely do the shelter. we have tarps on the pile now for the rest of the season. this summer we will rebuild.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

04chevy2500;1017370 said:


> i have seen some of the garages that you can order the doors longer and then i was thinking of just rigging up a pole along the bottom and a pulley at the top to pull the tarp up on the front. but definitely do the shelter. we have tarps on the pile now for the rest of the season. this summer we will rebuild.


I really like the sliding doors. I built my own and will again this time during my remodel. Raising the roof 4' also means taller doors. Just some 2x lumber and pole barn steel and tracks. Hardest part is lifting and getting them in the track. Material for (1) 12 x 12 door for less than $150 and can't remember the track cost. Maybe $300 I don't think thats too bad. My tracks/rollers are still perfect after about 15 years. So maybe $600 for 24' of door and 48' of track?


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## 04chevy2500 (Oct 7, 2009)

wow thats not bad. do you have any pictures of your shed by any chance? what do you use to load? in the winter i leave a skid at the pile but in the summer i would like to start keeping gravel and loom in their (the shed is divided into two sides). that means that i will have to build the new roof and doors tall enough to fight the backhoe in the sumer months because the skids will all be out on jobs.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Try this thread lots of pics http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=96253&highlight=store+bulk+salt


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

I only load with a skid steer. But now I have the Kubota tractor so it needs to be taller so I can use that to stack the salt higher in the same area. The pics were previously posted in another thread about a salt bin or storage. I think the concrete mafia blocks are a little overkill if you only use a skidsteer in it. But to each there own. Mine has 9' h doors. I have had as much as 90 ton in it but had cables to tie the walls together. The different bays are now divided off with OSB and the wall bottoms are 5/8" CDX plywood or treated planking. Soon to get a shed style/slope roof, 11' h sliding doors and no partitioning. Main salt area will have a 22' wide opening x 10'-6" high. Then the same building will also house a 3,000 gallon plastic tank.


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Off subject but Kubota 8540. How do you like the blizzard on the kubota? Work good having it hooked up on the skid steer att. or no?


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

viper881;1017878 said:


> Off subject but Kubota 8540. How do you like the blizzard on the kubota? Work good having it hooked up on the skid steer att. or no?


Oh no, here it comes, the Blizzard slam. In my first hand opinion, it was a heavy, over priced , over complicated, poorly painted, expensive to maintain, shortest period I ever owned a plow, PLOW. Fortunately, it only cost me $1300 to own it for 3 season, before I sold it to a Blizzard believer.

PROS: It was nice to be able to be 8' down the road and slide out to 10' when in a parking lot. Also being able to carry slightly more snow than a straight blade was nice.

I now am back using my tried and true 9' Western that I have owned for about 12 years. It just got the Kubota Orange paint this past fall.

Besides all of the above? I already know how to plow, I only need a straight blade.

On the Bobcat? Not in my opinion. I prefer things that only require on demand hydraulics, not something that you have to constantly pump fluid to just to occasionally angle or some other function. Thats a waste of HP and Diesel fuel.

NOT RECOMMENDED. I am a true believer in the K.I.S.S. theory.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

So Wide Out > Blizzard, then?


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Western Wide out ? I can't comment about, have never owned or operated one. But looks like the same features. Keep It Simple is best IMO. Whats next for plows? Sensors on the moldboard? Thats what is needed !


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Well, were your issues with the expandable blade or the mounting system?


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Westhardt Corp.;1018080 said:


> Well, were your issues with the expandable blade or the mounting system?


The skidsteer mount mine had was fine , no problems there.

No real particular issues. Just more general in nature. They sure HYPE those plows, as if they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Doesn't plow as clean or roll snow as well as a straight blade. Had rust on the plow in less than 2 years, even tho it was washed each time after using and kept in a heated shop. Cutting edges cost 500-700 for the 3 pieces. Angle and expand cylinders were 250-350 ea. The parts were expensive and harder to get, no local dealers.

I just bought a new edge for the Western 9' w/bolts for $125. Angle cylinders I have for spares new $85 ea. I have heard of people having problems with the wings , but never experienced any myself.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Ouch. Been debating, that's all. While both are owned by DD now, I'm inclined to stick with Western, and I do like the Ultra mount. The fancy do-dad hitch doesn't sit well with me.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Westhardt Corp.;1018200 said:


> Ouch. Been debating, that's all. While both are owned by DD now, I'm inclined to stick with Western, and I do like the Ultra mount. The fancy do-dad hitch doesn't sit well with me.


I did eyeball the wide out pretty good. I would guess by the way the wing cutting edges protrude forward 1 1/2" it would not let the snow flow or roll very well? That was my thought on the wideout. I was truly disappointed with the performance of the Blizzard. Those type plows are just more complicated in all aspects. But it would also depend on what your going to plow, how you like to plow, and how clean you expect to plow. For me, I want it as clean as possible so I only have to apply as little salt as necessary. I get paid per app, not per bag or ton? Also keeps the salt man away.

(EDIT) I think I read from some one else on Plowsite that they were rethinking the complex type plows also, as to whether they were worth the xtra cost to buy, own, and maintain. Takes me back to KISS. All the toys and frills are cool but in the end it always comes down to cost vs necessity.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

I never, ever had a problem with the old Western conventional mounts. I didn't care if my bumper stuck out an xtra 6". When I bought the Western V it was a Unimount. Didn't like that mount for sure. I still have the v plow for a spare for the 'Bota and for deep snow if I need it. I always popped my pump and lights off the conventional for the summer anyway.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

Kubota 8540;1017054 said:


> We all know how Salt eats concrete


NO NO NO!!!! salt eats REBAR not concrete.

That being said. A properly placed and reinforced (not with regular rebar) portland concrete mat is going to beat bituminous every time.

Black top has no real strenght so to speak, its only a waterproof wear surface that depends entirely on the subsurface to support it.

Concrete, has actual strenght, its capable of spanning voids and has superior wear resistence. All things (cost) being equal concrete is the way to go.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

BigLou80;1019709 said:


> NO NO NO!!!! salt eats REBAR not concrete.
> 
> That being said. A properly placed and reinforced (not with regular rebar) portland concrete mat is going to beat bituminous every time.
> 
> ...


This being waaaay off the subject of salt storage. I seen our new Interstate over pass approach built recently and they put down their base rock, topping stone, compacted, 6" asphalt then poured approx, 10" of concrete on top of it all. Made sense to me, but never seen that done before?

Salt absolutely eats nails, anchorments, fasteners, and rod, yep.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

They have been pouring onto an asphalt base here also. Can only think that it's maybe a sort of "leveling binder" for the slab?


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Westhardt Corp.;1019973 said:


> They have been pouring onto an asphalt base here also. Can only think that it's maybe a sort of "leveling binder" for the slab?


2 Reasons maybe? First could be to prevent the moisture from being directly against the under side of the concrete? Second, they used a tracked machine to auger,pour, level and groove the surface of the concrete? So a nice firm surface to work off of? Purely guessing. The roadway is very smooth to drive on.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

Kubota 8540;1019753 said:


> This being waaaay off the subject of salt storage. I seen our new Interstate over pass approach built recently and they put down their base rock, topping stone, compacted, 6" asphalt then poured approx, 10" of concrete on top of it all. Made sense to me, but never seen that done before?
> 
> Salt absolutely eats nails, anchorments, fasteners, and rod, yep.


got me there I could see few inches but 6" seems like a lot. I have a friend who works heavy construction I will ask him if he know anything about that.

My guess would be something for the machine to run on, or a waterproofing for the subsurface or waterproofing to keep the bottom of the slab from drying out to fast providing a better cure and a stronger road. Maybe all or none of the above


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Way over kill for my future salt bin! Ive seen them do that on our highways over here. Dont know why though


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

viper881;1020493 said:


> Way over kill for my future salt bin! Ive seen them do that on our highways over here. Dont know why though


Yeah but its only money and your great grandson would have a real nice salt shed floor.  How big are you thinking of building?


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Im thinking 24.9 ft x 24.9 ft cement slab with mafia blocks on three sides 4 high. I dont want to do a tarp bc they suck, but not sure how im going to do the roof or the cover yet. Any ideas?


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

To me there would be some factors to consider. Does it need to blend with the surroundings, Got Neighbors? But in general..... concrete floor (easiest) Mafia blocks if you need them, sloped roof away from the entry area, and sliding doors and some lights inside and out for loading. I think I will take a pic of a real nice shed tomorrow and post it. The concept of it is nice, but needs doors.


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Nothing but the slab can be permanent. I didnt ask the building inspector if i could build a hang over from a existing building. But he said anchoring any 2x4s to the floor would be perm. so i cant go that route. Thats the problem Im running into. The neighbors could care less, and it doesnt have to blend it but the building inspector said the accessor has nothing better to do so he thought for sure he would up the taxable value to the land if i made any perm. structure to the cement slab. It doesnt matter how cheap I build the salt shed he would consider it built as a 24.9x 24.9 stick build pole barn. So im up for ideas to manuver around this situation.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

Do you have a way to handle the Mafia blocks or have to hire or rent? Can you anchor the wood to the blocks? The shed I am going to post a pic of is built with 10' 6x6 treated post set 4' in the ground, 2x 8's nailed to those on the inside up 6'h. Then it has the tent type roof.( could be replaced with a slope roof) On the outside it has a CA 6 gravel berm that compacts and acts as a backer to support the push of the salt and loader up about 4 foot high, also provides good drainage for water.


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Yea i would handle the mafia blocks myself. When you get a chance send those pictures over sometime!


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

I'll snap some tomorrow. It's not mine, its our townships. If I had to start from the ground up again, I'd do the lower part that way, then put a wood frame, plywood sheeted, and shingled roof over it with sliding doors. The size you stated would be about right for me. Should hold about 100 ton?


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Sounds to me like you are shoe-in for a Cover All type structure. One of the municipalities here has a similar sized slab/block salt bin, and they simply lined it with plywood and dropped a Cover All on it, although they fancied it up with a rollup door and what not. But I imagine it would be just what the doctor ordered, and not a permanent structure.


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

As of right now it will only have to hold 50 tons.


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## Kubota 8540 (Sep 25, 2009)

The base, treated post and plank rather than mofia blocks.


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