# Insurance rates for 17-18 NJ....



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Well it appears some of us may not be plowing much of anything this year. As some may know, I no longer will take any management company contracts "NSPs" but have had plenty of hardships trying to make up the difference in smaller/direct accounts.

We have signed a handful of promising larger accounts this summer, as a few still hopefully filter in, we've also been told, that even with the small amount of sites we have for this season, the insurance rate would START at $100k as a minimum plus fees and taxes for the insurance to even consider it.

It baffles me, how some guys with one or two trucks are still out plowing snow year after year, knowing their limitations on income strictly based on the amount of trucks they have to plow accounts. Insurance broker tells me NO one is writing snow riders in NJ, yet i know two who still have these... paying pennies per year on a landscaper GL policy. 

Our policy for the 14/15 season was almost this much, because we still had multiple large accounts and handfuls of smaller sites for multiple truck routes, and a bunch of equipment on various sites... we were denied a policy for a mall... no loss as the terms were not beneficial at all either way for payment, and then now 100k for an account with 10 sites that would barely bill out the insurance premium on a GREAT year...

I've written all of our contracts for the last two seasons favorable to us, where the site actually holds the liability of slip and falls...yet numerous contracts direct are Worse than the NSP type contracts from a couple years ago... some want 5m $ coverage now, not 1/2m$ . I don't know anyone who has that much coverage on a Snow GL. 

If you're in NJ and somehow have already re-newed for the 17/18 winter season and have some stupid low rate, please PM me the companies name/agent name, and what you're insured for such as gross sales/liability limits/deductibles/# trucks etc... can PM as much or as little info as you feel comfortable with. thanks!


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Can't help myself, gotta subscribe. :terribletowel:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JustJeff said:


> Can't help myself, gotta subscribe. :terribletowel:


Ditto...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Ditto...


I haven't gotten any renewal in the mail yet. Just can't wait.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Who's bringing the popcorn to the party this time?? In before the lock...

Can't help you on who to talk to, but we carry 5mil GL on our snow and landscape policies.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

John_DeereGreen said:


> Who's bringing the popcorn to the party this time?? In before the lock...
> 
> Can't help you on who to talk to, but we carry 5mil GL on our snow and landscape policies.


I have to carry 3 mil for a major trucking company I do work for. And it's only minor repairs.


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Well it appears some of us may not be plowing much of anything this year. As some may know, I no longer will take any management company contracts "NSPs" but have had plenty of hardships trying to make up the difference in smaller/direct accounts.
> 
> We have signed a handful of promising larger accounts this summer, as a few still hopefully filter in, we've also been told, that even with the small amount of sites we have for this season, the insurance rate would START at $100k as a minimum plus fees and taxes for the insurance to even consider it.
> 
> ...


Hi Ramair. I can help you. We now have 7 GL programs for snow removal contractors and now service 13 states. Feel free to reach out to me. 516-233-3515 or 631-844-5242 or [email protected]
Ben/Insurance


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

You don't by chance serve IL, do you?


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

I haven't before but we are licensed there and I'm willing to try.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Ben/Insurance said:


> I haven't before but we are licensed there and I'm willing to try.


I'm open for a quote. Do you only handle GL, are you able to do commercial auto and workman's comp as well? My number is 847-909-8695 if you'd like to talk.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I don't live in NJ, but 100k? What the hell does that cover?? Is that only GL? Why would anyone plow there...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

JMHConstruction said:


> I don't live in NJ, but 100k? What the hell does that cover?? Is that only GL? Why would anyone plow there...


Costs me about 20,000 to my place. And I'm small.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Randall Ave said:


> Costs me about 20,000 to my place. And I'm small.


For just snow??

That's ridiculous...


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

JMHConstruction said:


> For just snow??
> 
> That's ridiculous...


No, to run the shop, no health insurance. When I had the four trucks out doing roads for the town, it was $13,000.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> No, to run the shop, no health insurance. When I had the four trucks out doing roads for the town, it was $13,000.


So Ramair doesn't know what he's talking about with the 100K quote? I figured that. There's no way anybody could afford to do business unless they were earning 500.00+ per hour pushing snow. I know the cost of doing business in your State is ridiculously expensive though. And from what I've seen, your property taxes are freaking crazy. That's Chris Christy's State, correct?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Maybe it's because he does so much more sales? 100k is pretty insane though


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Yes, I have a two bedroom ranch on one acre, taxes are 8000.00 a year. Everyone here I know that does snow, would never start from scratch now and do it. Just not cost effective. I have scaled back. All my stuff is paid for. And we just haven't had the snow in the last few years. For his insurance costs to be that high, He has to be a very large operation.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I'd be tempted to set up shop in PA and get my quotes through that. Is that fraud?


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> Yes, I have a two bedroom ranch on one acre, taxes are 8000.00 a year. Everyone here I know that does snow, would never start from scratch now and do it. Just not cost effective. I have scaled back. All my stuff is paid for. And we just haven't had the snow in the last few years. For his insurance costs to be that high, He has to be a very large operation.


That's not as bas as I had heard. My house in IL is almost exactly 1 acre. Nothing special, 3 bedroom ranch, and my taxes are about 6,500. I was under the impression that it was common to pay 15K for an average house there. Guess I was wrong on that one. My house in WI is nothing special either, but it's on the water and 8 acres. Taxes are less than 1K there.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> That's not as bas as I had heard. My house in IL is almost exactly 1 acre. Nothing special, 3 bedroom ranch, and my taxes are about 6,500. I was under the impression that it was common to pay 15K for an average house there. Guess I was wrong on that one. My house in WI is nothing special either, but it's on the water and 8 acres. Taxes are less than 1K there.


Dayum...1400 square foot 3 bedroom 2 bath on 1/3 acre is 2300 a year for me. Less land, but it's right in town too and in the nicer part of town.

My shop is on 2 acres in city limits, steel frame building with brick and mortar office, total of 8500 square feet and the taxes are like 6k.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

My place is small. Got homes in this town that are at 13000 a year. Where the wife works, there are homes the taxes are 60,000 a year.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Randall Ave said:


> Yes, I have a two bedroom ranch on one acre, taxes are 8000.00 a year. Everyone here I know that does snow, would never start from scratch now and do it. Just not cost effective. I have scaled back. All my stuff is paid for. And we just haven't had the snow in the last few years. For his insurance costs to be that high, He has to be a very large operation.


Unless his loss run is huuuuuge.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Unless his loss run is huuuuuge.


I was on my phone and have fat fingers.

If you'll recall, freak not only complained aboot NSP's, he was also complaining aboot slip and falls on a fairly regular basis.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was on my phone and have fat fingers.
> 
> If you'll recall, freak not only complained aboot NSP's, he was also complaining aboot slip and falls on a fairly regular basis.


Along with overpriced equipment, customers that have unreasonable machine requirements, and several other things that I am failing to remember at this point in time.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was on my phone and have fat fingers.
> 
> If you'll recall, freak not only complained about NSP's, he was also complaining about slip and falls on a fairly regular basis.


Yeah i shut down the lawn/landscape company and last year did snow under our other company instead... the insurance companies won't write snow policies for companies of any size unless they see the losses from the prior company, as no company usually just opens up shop suddenly in the snow business with multiple trucks and equipment. in 2017, our insurance from the lawn company settled 3 slip and falls from January-February 2014. One was 25k, the other $18k and another about $100k... i attended three depositions where they tried to put all the blame on our work, except there's nothing to show we did anything wrong. Insurance attornies then default to how much the personal injury would be worth to a jury and try to settle before then. Because the NSPs you've indemnified THEM, in two cases we were able to prove that it was actually their fault for the issue that may have caused the conditions that led up to the slip and fall, and our insurance still pays out.. we know the drill by now.

So we're technically in worse position 3 years after working with NSPs and a different company name than for the years while we worked for them.

And for anyone thinking $20k is a huge amount, its only huge because you might only bill out $40k or something like that. Generally in NJ at least, you'll pay a minimum of 16-20% of your gross sales.. thats zero slip and falls in 5 years past, asca insurance etc.... anything other and goes up from there, maybe 40%

So 20% of 
$100k gross sales is $20k
$200k is $40k
$300k is 60k
$400k is 80k
$500k is 100k

It used to be this way however now it seems to be double or triple of those amounts. The $100k rates we were quoted wern't even on every account, it was ONLY for two new accounts we are picking up directly, or attempting to, where i estimate gross sales would be between $140-200k. So thats 50% of your gross sales and higher for just the snow plow insurance.

We still have workers comp at about 8% in NJ for "snow services" which ironically is lower than landscaping, sales taxes of 6.85% now, General Liability which is minimal but still $3-5k per year and commercial auto which rates somewhere between $2000-2300 per F150 truck and less for a diesel F350 usually and just a bit more for a more expensive F550 dump truck.. F150s i assume are more liability as it was explained because theyr'e crashed and stolen more often.. go figure.

Our auto policy is about $25k per year or $2100~ a month avg.

Then you still pay employees, nj Dept of labor taxes, federal taxes all that crap, overhead, profit and income taxes. So yeah i generally laugh when i hear guys bidding at $110/hr for a pickup and $120/hr for a skid steer and $35/hr for a laborer rates because thats $1100 for TEN hours of truck plowing where i'd better bill out $2-3k or more for the same work here.

We've signed both these new snow contracts for skid steer rates with 4hr minimums for loading, stacking with or without a 8' pushbox on site for $205 and $210 an hour...yet i've seen some competitor bids at $85/$115 and $130/hr without a single fee to transport to/from site or hourly minimums.

For those who remember my 3m sq ft mall post a few months back, i did inquire for insurance for it and none really wanted to write the policy and $200,000 premium 100% deposit up front would have gotten us coverage for that work with a LOL $25,000 deducible per claim. Yikes! I assume that mall last year with the 10" of snow we got in a abnormally warm winter, paid out roughly $75,000.... even without the excessive equipment demands they had "all hourly only" and them running 100% of the operations, we'd have to bill about $400-600k before it became profitable due to the insurance cost alone.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

JustJeff said:


> So Ramair doesn't know what he's talking about with the 100K quote? I figured that. There's no way anybody could afford to do business unless they were earning 500.00+ per hour pushing snow. I know the cost of doing business in your State is ridiculously expensive though. And from what I've seen, your property taxes are freaking crazy. That's Chris Christy's State, correct?


We paid nearly that much for the 14/15 season... which at that time for the amount of accounts we had was still barely feasible.. If we had the same account lineup this year, it would likely be $200-250k, which sorry, is not, and it was the worst feeling writing a check for nearly 6 figures that you get back maybe 20 sheets of paper in your hand eventually for and "liability coverage" because you know people are going to slip and fall and sue.

Those who have been in the industry a long time, said not to take high risk accounts, unless the property owner assumed 100% liability. They were right, because we've had accounts for almost 10 years now what have never had a single slip and fall claim and others we're under contract for not even 30 days and 1+ in that short span of time just because of the type of store.

Walmarts, Best Buys, 24/7 convenience stores, specific banks, Gas stations, strip malls "where there are excessive amounts of sidewalk sq footage", BJs, Costcos, Targets, Kohls, Home Depots, Wawas, etc.... all should be big red flags.

In 2010, we had one walmart, 6 slip and falls from january-march 2011, didn't snow at all before then. USM had us listed mistakenly as the provider for another site in NJ too, another walmart where they forwarded us 9 slip and fall claims from that site too... They finally rectified their mess up and passed them along to the contractor at that site but this happens every year at some properties.

in NJ, estimate how many hours its going to take your truck/machine to plow a given site per set amount of inches... 1-2hrs @$300-400/hr, anything more than drop to $200-300/hr, if estimating 10hr storm, maybe $150-200hr, but wouldn't go any lower than that, especially for sites you may have a truck or machine on full time.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I love it when freak comes back in the fall....:hammerhead:

Nothing is ever his fault or his employees, but he can't work for any NSP's, can't afford insurance, can't get work, everyone else is an idiot for the lack of equipment they have on site, slip and falls aren't his fault, non-payment isn't his fault, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I love it when freak comes back in the fall....:hammerhead:
> 
> Nothing is ever his fault or his employees, but he can't work for any NSP's, can't afford insurance, can't get work, everyone else is an idiot for the lack of equipment they have on site, slip and falls aren't his fault, non-payment isn't his fault, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....


It's like clockwork. September/October it never fails.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I love it when freak comes back in the fall....:hammerhead:
> 
> Nothing is ever his fault or his employees, but he can't work for any NSP's, can't afford insurance, can't get work, everyone else is an idiot for the lack of equipment they have on site, slip and falls aren't his fault, non-payment isn't his fault, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....


Never gonna claim i have 100% employees.. every company struggles with that for sure. NSPs suck.. they all do, period. I have afforded the insurance for years that was probably well surpassing what 99% of the members on this plow club pay per season to plow snow. There are a TON of idiots in NJ at least with not just improper equipment but a lack of literally everything. Account managers in our state routinely take low bids so far lower than others, they know they'll fail. $20k per season for a $100k ~ account is too low and they know it. When our bid is $90k and the first storm hits using competitor B, they show up with ONE f150 truck or, the more professional "established" guys, a rack body f550 with a 9' plow and NO weight/salt spreader in back, they're not going to start after 10" have fallen on a site and think they're gonna get through the 2ft packed entrance off the main road... I hate these guys, they ruin the industry, and yet we pickup some of their slack sometimes and make a profit eventually. It tarnishes the mindset of property managers, because once one company bids $20k on a $100k job, they will seek out that next $20k company because someone else MUST be able to handle the work for maybe a fraction more.

No slip and falls were ever our direct fault. Could something have been done to possibly prevent it? sure. Would we have been paid to plow/salt additional or for any said such additional service? no, so its not done. I don't work for the slip and fall folks out there, so i could care less what they're doing, and we will work to perform the services rendered in the contract. How would non payment by nsp ever be our fault? We're contracted to do xyz, we do xyz, invoice for it, usually 90% of the time, its months later, NOW there is a problem after they're late paying, besides working with NSP, i have no control over that.

I don't come on plowsite excited to tell everyone how GREAT my one account is, how awesome they are paying 4 days after invoiced, how easy it is working for them, how happy they are with the work, how much profit margin im killing it with the account... we do have those accounts, but they are few in between what we used to do for nsps, and much smaller in size, so the $1k per storm account no matter how good, isn't even thought about when issues in the 6 figures arise where some company in bumbleville state 600 miles away refuses to pay, terminates you from job sites because they found someone else cheaper they can contract.

If only i could divulge the good info i've gotten through some of these lawsuits against companies who havn't paid... its not just us, i've seen the WAY shady stuff they've done where we've gained copies of emails under discovery and depositions that they told abc employee to find a replacement for us before even hiring us because we were 26% more expensive than they know they can find another replacement vendor for... meanwhile we've sunken $20k into the site for equipment/salt/time investments for them to claim we "failed" to perform a service and terminated within the hour.....i've gotten info about several other companies locally who the same thing happened to and unfortunately, i can't even tell them about it. NJ/NY/eastern PA/DE states are just unethical and have no morals. There have been local smaller companies we've stopped to help out if broken down, or just to introduce myself as friendly competition, only to find out that company thinks we're their MAIN competition ! It is funny watching all these guys turn over season after season now with our old accounts done through NSPs, i understand why it was probably funny listening to all my complaints realated to NSPs over all the years


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

You need to just give up. The horse has been beaten beyond the point of recognition, and the record has fallen apart on the record player it is so broken.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

JustJeff said:


> That's not as bas as I had heard. My house in IL is almost exactly 1 acre. Nothing special, 3 bedroom ranch, and my taxes are about 6,500. I was under the impression that it was common to pay 15K for an average house there. Guess I was wrong on that one. My house in WI is nothing special either, but it's on the water and 8 acres. Taxes are less than 1K there.


I have a 90 x 90 lot, 1300 square ft home, no pool, small shed, and I'm just over $8000 a year in prop taxes. No services are included for this.
3 blocks away,, a piece of property was developed, building mcmansions on each of the 9 properties. They're paying $16000 to $20,000 in taxes, as they are assessed differently, based upon sale price of the home, not the assessed value such as my home.

$100,000 snow gl policies are common here, and guys are still profitable.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ramairfreak98ss said:


> Never gonna claim i have 100% employees.. every company struggles with that for sure. NSPs suck.. they all do, period. I have afforded the insurance for years that was probably well surpassing what 99% of the members on this plow club pay per season to plow snow. There are a TON of idiots in NJ at least with not just improper equipment but a lack of literally everything. Account managers in our state routinely take low bids so far lower than others, they know they'll fail. $20k per season for a $100k ~ account is too low and they know it. When our bid is $90k and the first storm hits using competitor B, they show up with ONE f150 truck or, the more professional "established" guys, a rack body f550 with a 9' plow and NO weight/salt spreader in back, they're not going to start after 10" have fallen on a site and think they're gonna get through the 2ft packed entrance off the main road... I hate these guys, they ruin the industry, and yet we pickup some of their slack sometimes and make a profit eventually. It tarnishes the mindset of property managers, because once one company bids $20k on a $100k job, they will seek out that next $20k company because someone else MUST be able to handle the work for maybe a fraction more.
> 
> No slip and falls were ever our direct fault. Could something have been done to possibly prevent it? sure. Would we have been paid to plow/salt additional or for any said such additional service? no, so its not done. I don't work for the slip and fall folks out there, so i could care less what they're doing, and we will work to perform the services rendered in the contract. How would non payment by nsp ever be our fault? We're contracted to do xyz, we do xyz, invoice for it, usually 90% of the time, its months later, NOW there is a problem after they're late paying, besides working with NSP, i have no control over that.
> 
> ...


Sure...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> I have a 90 x 90 lot, 1300 square ft home, no pool, small shed, and I'm just over $8000 a year in prop taxes. No services are included for this.
> 3 blocks away,, a piece of property was developed, building mcmansions on each of the 9 properties. They're paying $16000 to $20,000 in taxes, as they are assessed differently, based upon sale price of the home, not the assessed value such as my home.
> 
> $100,000 snow gl policies are common here, and guys are still profitable.


All of those numbers are insane and rediculous... glad I'm not in NJ


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

It costs a lot of money to live here. But you can make a decent living if your a hustler.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> It costs a lot of money to live here. But you can make a decent living if your a hustler.


Or a gangster....
Or a politician

duh.... same thing.....


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