# loader



## me! (Sep 12, 2009)

i will need a loader this season for one property.

what is the best way to get a hold of one?

rental and subbing, im looking at both options


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

Rental is a big risk if you aren't a seasonal contract.....Better to sub if it's per push.


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## me! (Sep 12, 2009)

forestfireguy;1088050 said:


> Rental is a big risk if you aren't a seasonal contract.....Better to sub if it's per push.


sorry, it is seasonal


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## PLOWTRUCK (Sep 25, 2010)

Why is it a big risk? I rented machines quite often with seasonal contracts. Just look at your costs a make sure the numbers work. A loader( a good one anyway) is a big investment if the machine is only going to work in the winter. When you rent you get a pretty new machine. When you look to purchase you try and get a good deal on a used loader that many times turns into headaches if you try and find something cheap. Run your numbers and make sure it works before you do anything.


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## me! (Sep 12, 2009)

what should i expect to pay for rental, there is plenty of room in the budget so its just a matter of if its going to save me enough time on plow trucks


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## Advantage (Nov 7, 2007)

Maybe its just me but didn't you run those numbers when you bid it?


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## me! (Sep 12, 2009)

Advantage;1088109 said:


> Maybe its just me but didn't you run those numbers when you bid it?


its a 10 acer account, they may be adding 5 more. there is room to pile with trucks, but i assume a loader would be better. If they add the 5 more, pricing will change. That is y i am asking the question.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Loaders are definitely a big investment wether you rent or buy but they take the place of at least two trucks. Renting one for a per push is very risky, at least with a seasonal you know where you stand. Call around to get a price, around here a loader goes for at least 3,000/month. Thats a CAT 938 (I think). What about a backhoe? A CAT 430D rents for 1800/month around here. Then you most likely will have to get a push box for it. Push boxes go for anywhere from 2k to 6k. Is this a lot you already do?


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## me! (Sep 12, 2009)

yes, we have been doing it for a couple years


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

ok, my take on this, for the rent you are going to pay, why not buy a good used peice of equipment, there are so many deals to be had right now, at great prices. And doing snow with a loader isn't going to strain it at all, so if you buy a loader with some hours on it, really, it isn't like you are going to over work it. I bought a older 910 cat a couple years ago, with a rebuilt enging and drive train, had it gone through by a mechanic, all in I paid $15 000 dollars, and it i figure it has already paid for about 1/3 of my investment into it in one year, and that is only because we had a really crappy season last year. If we have snowfalls like we had 2 years ago, that machine well pay for itself in one season.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

buckwheat_la;1088294 said:


> ok, my take on this, for the rent you are going to pay, why not buy a good used peice of equipment, there are so many deals to be had right now, at great prices. And doing snow with a loader isn't going to strain it at all, so if you buy a loader with some hours on it, really, it isn't like you are going to over work it. I bought a older 910 cat a couple years ago, with a rebuilt enging and drive train, had it gone through by a mechanic, all in I paid $15 000 dollars, and it i figure it has already paid for about 1/3 of my investment into it in one year, and that is only because we had a really crappy season last year. If we have snowfalls like we had 2 years ago, that machine well pay for itself in one season.


Exactly! We bought our loader for 22k and the rent on a backhoe was 1800/month x 5 months = 9k  Thats almost half the loader. Plus I'm getting a machine that will move more snow than a backhoe and I'm building equity in my business. It didnt make any sense to rent for that money.


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## padude2004 (Mar 6, 2004)

lets hope it works for ya. great find.


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

It depends. Shop around......the prices above for rental are way high. There's a company here renting bigger loaders for $6,500 for the season. I'm talking few year old equpt. 

Some people can't buy stuff. Getting a $25k loan is easy for some, but not for others. Maybe he can justify rent, but not a purchase. Sometimes buying a loader and not being able to make any $$ on top of what it cost's isn't very sensible. In the long run, sure it is. But initially, not really.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

Is it a national company renting for $ 6500........If so get me the info.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

I said the rental is a risk if it's NOT seasonal. Obviously if you have a good seasonal contract the risks are much less, but depending on your numbers it could still be a stretch........


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## me! (Sep 12, 2009)

thanks for the input.

I guess the difference in price is what i was looking for. when i shop around im getting prices like 2500 a month, but i hear you can get them for 5 a season, but cant find any like that


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## KCD Snow Pro (Aug 30, 2009)

Brian Young;1088304 said:


> Exactly! We bought our loader for 22k and the rent on a backhoe was 1800/month x 5 months = 9k  Thats almost half the loader. Plus I'm getting a machine that will move more snow than a backhoe and I'm building equity in my business. It didnt make any sense to rent for that money.


Check with your accountant about a purchase and ask about the bonus depreciation program just re-enacted by the feds. Allows you to buy a new piece of iron and if put into service before Jan 1 you can take your standard 179 deduction AND DEPRECIATE 50% OF REMAINING VALUE THIS TAX YEAR... No joke, look up depreciation bonus.org. Good info to have.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

KCD Snow Pro;1090526 said:


> Check with your accountant about a purchase and ask about the bonus depreciation program just re-enacted by the feds. Allows you to buy a new piece of iron and if put into service before Jan 1 you can take your standard 179 deduction AND DEPRECIATE 50% OF REMAINING VALUE THIS TAX YEAR... No joke, look up depreciation bonus.org. Good info to have.


Is this a question about loaders and snow removal or accounting 101?
Sure you can take a accelerated schedule with depreciation, then if he decides to sell the machine within a year or two after buying it (maybe he finds it's not worth owning) the income from the selling loader will be taxed at that point... 
Buy a quality used machine if you have the use for it, otherwise sub out the loader work.


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## KCD Snow Pro (Aug 30, 2009)

blowerman;1090564 said:


> Is this a question about loaders and snow removal or accounting 101?
> Sure you can take a accelerated schedule with depreciation, then if he decides to sell the machine within a year or two after buying it (maybe he finds it's not worth owning) the income from the selling loader will be taxed at that point...
> Buy a quality used machine if you have the use for it, otherwise sub out the loader work.


You know, bringing up the comment about the tax after a sale if owned less than five years is a good point. However basically what I was trying to do was pass along some good info to have for not only him but to anyone else on here who might benefit from it. A lot of business owners have no idea of what's going on out there right now in regard to the bonus depreciation program.

Also, did I tell him what to do other than check with his accountant about the benefits of a possible purchase? Hopefully his accountant (if he has one) will be well versed enough with the new small business bill that he can help him find some additional opportunities within his numbers.

This lot and bid may not be the only thing that he has going on. Sometimes buying equipment just for a tax break is the smartest thing that you can do to free up cash for next spring. Knowledge IS power. Maybe it'll help open up some additional summertime opportunities. I can't remember off hand what the threshold limits for the new 179 expensing levels are but I do know that they were bumped up with the program. Anyway, new, used, rented or subbed out there's a lot to work with out there right now. Lots of rental houses are getting stomped and are more than willing to work with contractors.

So to answer your question about accounting or deciding on a loader, in my book it all goes hand in hand. The most important part is to have a solid financial plan and make sure that you don't miss out on ANY tax advantages regardless of what you do for a living. Hell you can write off a rental also. It's all about what works for him.
payup


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## BowTieDmax (Nov 25, 2003)

*Cat winter rates*

I just happen to have the price sheet in front of me. Good luck finding any of these listed because they are all taken for this season. These are all discounted prices for the winter.

Loaders
904--- 1,500.00 month
IT14--- 1,800.00
IT28---- 2,700.00 
930---- 3,060.00
938----- 3,180.00

Backhoes

430IT ---- 2,100
430 ---- 1,800
420IT--- 1,800
420---- 1,575
416 --- 1,320


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## kcress31 (Sep 20, 2009)

Don't forget a lot of rental places will allow the rent to go towards purchase later on. This is a really good way to try out a machine to see if you like it and if you have a slow winter you can just return it when not needed. I assume the rental deals will get better the closer you book to December, January.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

KCD Snow Pro;1090716 said:


> You know, bringing up the comment about the tax after a sale if owned less than five years is a good point. However basically what I was trying to do was pass along some good info to have for not only him but to anyone else on here who might benefit from it. A lot of business owners have no idea of what's going on out there right now in regard to the bonus depreciation program.
> 
> Also, did I tell him what to do other than check with his accountant about the benefits of a possible purchase? Hopefully his accountant (if he has one) will be well versed enough with the new small business bill that he can help him find some additional opportunities within his numbers.
> 
> ...


Hey I appreciated the info! Thanks


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## me! (Sep 12, 2009)

Going the sub route. I called just about every rental place i could find and the cheapest i could get was in the 2700 a month range, 4 month min. After crunching the numbers, adding the labor, fuel and added ins, the cost was much higher then what i could sub it out for. 

Thanks for the info guys,


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

me!;1093917 said:


> Going the sub route. I called just about every rental place i could find and the cheapest i could get was in the 2700 a month range, 4 month min. After crunching the numbers, adding the labor, fuel and added ins, the cost was much higher then what i could sub it out for.
> 
> Thanks for the info guys,


Way to go! At least you thought things through. Good luck.


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## G&T LAWN (Nov 7, 2009)

Where are you in the midwest? I am in near omaha ne and could give you ideas here.


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