# What to use on new concrete?



## Popozuda (Aug 4, 2009)

Hi all,

Brand new to this site but have been moving snow for many years. I will be responsible for a brand new office building with massive parking garage top deck to deal with.

Any tips for what ice melting products are okay for concrete less than a year old? I currently use Magic Salt which I really like but not sure if it is safe for these new sidewalks and parking deck.

Somewhat unrelated to ice but rather than making a ton of new threads, how about equipment suggestions or tips for the top deck of a 4 story parking garage?

Thanks for your help.

KB


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## sumner_services (Aug 1, 2009)

I have seen pitting on new concrete from to much rock salt used. In our area in the winter months they add Calcium chloride to the mix to help from freezing and set up properly. So if they add calcium chloride to the concrete, It only stands to reason it would be "ok" to use it. Can you get away with just using sand? . but that is a gamble, If you already have a sander then mix flake or pellet in sand But if you don't have a sander consider using a liquid. The sprayer is less money than a box sander plus you don't need to take time to premix with a skid loader. Check out www.liquidicemelt.net for more information


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

sumner_services;791530 said:


> I have seen pitting on new concrete from to much rock salt used.


You sure about that?


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## SnowMelt2006 (Nov 27, 2006)

You want a absolute guarantee..............CMA.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

There was a presentaion covering this topic as the SIMA show. The handouts are avaiable online at sima.org


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## Fordcatrand (Jan 4, 2013)

Not sure about magic on brand new concrete but based on what I've heard it comes down to was it poured properly. For the top of the parking garage I would recommend a mini loader. Wacker has a few products that meet the weight requirements. They are pricey though


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

Whatever you do, don't use hungry salt.

I think I'll sit back and watch for awhile.


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## TJSNOW (Jul 26, 2009)

cretebaby;791548 said:


> You sure about that?


Someone with Crete in their first name might know a thing or two aboot this subject.....:waving:



dfd9;1558226 said:


> Whatever you do, don't use hungry salt.
> 
> I think I'll sit back and watch for awhile.


Me too..........



SnowMelt2006;791554 said:


> You want a absolute guarantee..............CMA.


There are NO absolute guarantees...................Thumbs Up


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

cretebaby;791548 said:


> You sure about that?





dfd9;1558226 said:


> Whatever you do, don't use hungry salt.
> 
> I think I'll sit back and watch for awhile.





TJSNOW;1558303 said:


> Someone with Crete in their first name might know a thing or two aboot this subject.....:waving:
> 
> Me too..........
> 
> There are NO absolute guarantees...................


One has his bait out, one has his halo on, & one.....well, I'll just 

OP, how about using sand?


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## the_snoman (Jan 6, 2013)

It is my understanding that rock salt does not chemically attack concrete nor does calcium chloride however they melt off the snow and ice which can then be absorbed by the concrete and refreeze which can cause the upper layers to peel away or scale. It appears that calcium is preferred because it has a lower freeze point and therefor can reduce the number of freeze/thaw cycles. I think given this information one could come to the conclusion that mother nature could cause the same problem simply by melting down the snow/ice during the day then refreezing it on her own at night when the temp drops.

There are some deicers that do attack concrete such as ammonium nitrate & ammonium sulfate. Supposedly the the best defense against this problem is quality 8000 psi concrete that has been air entrained and finished properly but obviously we don't have any control over that.

I know there are some places that restrict the use of rock salt (possibly others) on new concrete for 2 years. I don't know how beneficial this is but there might be some good science behind it. Obviously sand would not have any effect on concrete since it doesn't actually melt snow so this might be an alternative though it can create quite the mess.

This information comes from the following link: http://www.stixnstones.com/blog/bid/72062/Does-Rock-Salt-Harm-Concrete


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## TJSNOW (Jul 26, 2009)

8000psi.....Wow...Thats some strong stuff.......



When deicer companys such as Peladow, Morton, Etc put out info about their deicers its gonna be slanted towards their product and how safe and green it is.


The best source of info is the Portland Cement Association...pca.org


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## the_snoman (Jan 6, 2013)

Yeah it's always difficult to know what to believe. I think the fact of the matter is that it's always going to be a problem in the snow belt and if you're not willing to take chances deicing you'd better be willing to pay for a heated surface or live with the lawsuits. There is always a trade off with every deicer you use.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

> It appears that calcium is preferred because it has a lower freeze point and therefor can reduce the number of freeze/thaw cycles.


So, let's play the what-if game.

What if the temps never drop below 25*?

What if calcium is applied at the proper rate for the conditions at that time, but it snows another inch?

How many freeze\thaw cycles might occur then?

What if salt is applied after the snowfall, temps are 25* again, the remaining snow\ice melts, and then the temps drop to 0*?

How many freeze\thaw cycles then?


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## the_snoman (Jan 6, 2013)

Well honestly that's pretty hard to predict. I suppose a major factor would be the amount of calcium applied at the time and at what point it becomes diluted to the point where it can no longer prevent freeze up. The type of snow is going to play a part in this as well as dry powder snow isn't going to provide as much moisture as wet snow.

I suppose that it's possible to over apply and actually end up with the same problem. Salt brine for example can actually be mixed too strong and freeze faster than if it was at the recommended 23.3% concentration. I believe the same is true for calcium as I was just told a couple of days ago that the 38% calcium used for dust control will freeze fairly easily in the winter compared to the 32% used for deicing. So really it's a guessing game and I suppose that's why it's important to have good quality concrete from the start.


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## Young Pup (Aug 13, 2004)

I think the op has found his answer already. This thread is over 3 years old.


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## NICHOLS LANDSCA (Sep 15, 2007)

I'd check to see if you are even allowed to put down salt. A buddy does some ramps and he can only put down straight sand


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

the_snoman;1559012 said:


> Well honestly that's pretty hard to predict. I suppose a major factor would be the amount of calcium applied at the time and at *what point it becomes diluted to the point where it can no longer prevent freeze up.* The type of snow is going to play a part in this as well as dry powder snow isn't going to provide as much moisture as wet snow.
> 
> I suppose that it's possible to over apply and actually end up with the same problem. Salt brine for example can actually be mixed too strong and freeze faster than if it was at the recommended 23.3% concentration. I believe the same is true for calcium as I was just told a couple of days ago that the 38% calcium used for dust control will freeze fairly easily in the winter compared to the 32% used for deicing. So really it's a guessing game and I suppose that's *why it's important to have good quality concrete from the start.*


Now you're getting there. The effective temp of calcium doesn't matter if the user never hits that temp. What matters is dilution, not effective temp of a product. For the greater majority of us, salt is just fine.

And yes, the most important part is quality concrete. I have applied tons and tons of salt to concrete that is only a few months old and never had a problem. I have also seen concrete that hasn't had any deicer applied that has spalled.



Young Pup;1559013 said:


> I think the op has found his answer already. This thread is over 3 years old.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Good catch.


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## the_snoman (Jan 6, 2013)

Correct this is an old thread however this sort of information never gets old so no harm in adding to it. 

I know we've applied salt to a lot of concrete over the years and in some places it doesn't cause a problem and others it does. It's difficult to say why this happens as obviously there are a lot of factors involved. All I know is that if I'm a business owner I'll take my chances with deicing rather than worrying about how pretty my concrete is. There's no guarantee the concrete will have a problem however in this day and age with liability as it is there's almost certainly a guarantee of a lawsuit if you make little to no effort and someone gets hurt.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

dfd9;1558226 said:


> Whatever you do, don't use hungry salt.
> 
> I think I'll sit back and watch for awhile.


Hungry salt is the devil.

What aboot sea salt? :laughing:


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## Foster (Jan 17, 2000)

old topic, had to go back 5 pages to find it. yes, i'm bored. ahem. anywho, we had a bunch of new concrete installed this past summer. the contractor said 'absolutely no de-icer on it, or they will not warranty their work'. we put down a sealer on the concrete in the fall, and that seems to have done the trick. no issues with de-icers spalling the new concrete so far...


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