# What de icer works for new concrete??



## kbros

New fancy place put in new sidewalks this summer and they do not want any salt on the new concrete. What can I put on the new concrete that will not damage the new concrete?


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## jomama45

kbros;909958 said:


> New fancy place put in new sidewalks this summer and they do not want any salt on the new concrete. What can I put on the new concrete that will not damage the new concrete?


Torpedo sand is guaranteed not to cause any conflicts.


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## terrapro

We already went over this this year, you must use a propane torch.
http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=91288&highlight=propane+torch


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## cretebaby

*SALT*


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## Superior L & L

i here if you take a high pressured garden hose it will wash the ice off the walks 

:laughing::laughing:


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## beverlylawncare

I never recommend salt for ANY concrete surface, regardless of age. Most melters (including blends and calcium based) recommend cured concrete of at least 1 year. 

I didn't check the link, but thats just my $.02


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## Mattsautobody

what about beet juice??


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## cretebaby

beverlylawncare;910797 said:


> I never recommend salt for ANY concrete surface, regardless of age. Most melters (including blends and calcium based) recommend cured concrete of at least 1 year.
> 
> I didn't check the link, but thats just my $.02


Is everyone from Kentucky against salt and concrete?


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## Luther

cretebaby;910891 said:


> Is everyone from Kentucky against salt and concrete?


I think so....I don't understand their thought process.


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## Matson Snow

beverlylawncare;910797 said:


> I never recommend salt for ANY concrete surface, regardless of age. Most melters (including blends and calcium based) recommend cured concrete of at least 1 year.
> 
> I didn't check the link, but thats just my $.02


I just had a LONG talk with a expert on concrete yesterday..I getting TIRED of reading posts from people that dont have a clue...SALT does NOT hurt concrete...There are many reason concrete cracks, spalls, pops,etc...Poor mix design, Poor installation,Etc are a few reasons concrete fails...NOT SALT or any other ice melter...Proper mixing and installation go a long way to a nice concrete job. Also a soon as you can walk on the slab you should put a cure and seal on it..It will help protect the concrete for a long life..just my 4 cents....:waving:


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## Matson Snow

Where is Mark O....We need his wit here....:waving:


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## Luther

Matson Snow;910955 said:


> I just had a LONG talk with a expert on concrete yesterday..I getting TIRED of reading posts from people that dont have a clue...SALT does NOT hurt concrete...There are many reason concrete cracks, spalls, pops,etc...Poor mix design, Poor installation,Etc are a few reasons concrete fails...NOT SALT or any other ice melter...Proper mixing and installation go a long way to a nice concrete job. Also a soon as you can walk on the slab you should put a cure and seal on it..It will help protect the concrete for a long life..just my 4 cents....:waving:


Just because you're an expert in concrete and have certifications and stuff does not mean you get .04 cents and we only get .02 cents.


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## Dissociative

Matson Snow;910955 said:


> SALT does NOT hurt concrete...g:


Dude, this goes against everything i have ever been told. And every drive way i see pitted to hell from salt use. Or the driveway that looks fine everywhere but where the car drips salty water and it's pitted to hell all around the car.

i'm not saying i know for sure....but i have seen some jacked up driveways from using rock salt all over them.

not to mention my father i law ripping his depends open when he saw me salt his cement.


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## jomama45

Matson Snow;910955 said:


> *I just had a LONG talk with a expert on concrete yesterday*..I getting TIRED of reading posts from people that dont have a clue...SALT does NOT hurt concrete...There are many reason concrete cracks, spalls, pops,etc...Poor mix design, Poor installation,Etc are a few reasons concrete fails...NOT SALT or any other ice melter...Proper mixing and installation go a long way to a nice concrete job. Also a soon as you can walk on the slab you should put a cure and seal on it..It will help protect the concrete for a long life..just my 4 cents....:waving:


Winter + concrete expert + long talk = You must have been in the bar!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## terrapro

Why does this happen every couple of weeks...

Salt/ice melt increases the freeze thaw cycle which is the only reason why people see an effect from using these products. It just hastens the inevitable.


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## snocrete

jomama45;910991 said:


> Winter + concrete expert + long talk = You must have been in the bar!!!!!!!!!!!!


Good one!


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## Luther

Dissociative;910990 said:


> not to mention my father i law ripping his depends open when he saw me salt his cement.


I'm sure they make a jumbo size.............


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## Matson Snow

Dissociative;910990 said:


> Dude, this goes against everything i have ever been told. And every drive way i see pitted to hell from salt use. Or the driveway that looks fine everywhere but where the car drips salty water and it's pitted to hell all around the car.
> 
> i'm not saying i know for sure....but i have seen some jacked up driveways from using rock salt all over them.
> 
> not to mention my father i law ripping his depends open when he saw me salt his cement.


Explain to me how salt hurts concrete Please...You have seen some jack-up drive ways from Poor concrete or a Poor install.....If the concrete is low on air the concrete will pop..If the concrete is Over finished it will spall...Explain how the DOTs get away with salting highways and roads....The road in front of my house is 23 years old. Its concrete and has been salted for 23 years..Looks Great....So if salt is sooo bad for concrete WHY is this road still around....Properly Cured and Finished concrete will not be hurt by salt...


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## snocrete

Matson Snow;911047 said:


> Explain to me how salt hurts concrete Please...You have seen some jack-up drive ways from Poor concrete or a Poor install.....If the concrete is low on air the concrete will pop..If the concrete is Over finished it will spall...Explain how the DOTs get away with salting highways and roads....The road in front of my house is 23 years old. Its concrete and has been salted for 23 years..Looks Great....So if salt is sooo bad for concrete WHY is this road still around....Properly *Batched,* Cured, and Finished concrete will not be hurt by salt...


fixed it for ya


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## Matson Snow

snocrete;911058 said:


> fixed it for ya


Thank you sir....


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## Matson Snow

What about Liquid Brine..I dont know much about it , but it does have salt in it ...Right...Cant spray that on concrete eather...So all you guys spraying brine...Sell your equipment....Because the people from Kentucky and a few others say SALT is the DEVIL!!!! ...And it will ruin your concrete.....:waving:


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## show-n-go

I have always been told not to use salt on concrete. All of the company's that i have worked for in this area have said the same thing, they all use calcium. lol 

I'm not an expert in anything so i'll take you guy's word for it.


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## beverlylawncare

cretebaby;910891 said:


> Is everyone from Kentucky against salt and concrete?


Crete - Not everyone. Just those of us who have taken over contracts where Parking Blocks in asphalt lots have nearly completely deteriorated from years of heavy salting. YET the asphalt remains virtually unscathed.

Where sidewalks have large pitting areas ONLY at the bottom of formed handicapped ramps (ie where salt may get slung) yet the remainder of said walks, even aggregate is unharmed using blends or calcium.

Want pics? I got plenty of examples I could share....


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## beverlylawncare

And isn't it the Mortons Saf-T-Salt bags that say "remove excess from concrete immediately to prevent damage" (or something to that effect - I could go grab a bag and give verbatim if its that important)


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## terrapro

beverlylawncare;911191 said:


> Crete - Not everyone. Just those of us who have taken over contracts where Parking Blocks in asphalt lots have nearly completely deteriorated from years of heavy salting. YET the asphalt remains virtually unscathed.
> 
> Where sidewalks have large pitting areas ONLY at the bottom of formed handicapped ramps (ie where salt may get slung) yet the remainder of said walks, even aggregate is unharmed using blends or calcium.
> 
> *Want pics? I got plenty of examples I could share*....


Yes please so we can explain the exact science AGAIN of it even though I already gave the "for dummies version" a couple posts up and there are sooo many threads already out there on this topic.

Here is a repeat...
"Salt/ice melt increases the freeze thaw cycle which is the only reason why people see an effect from using these products. It just hastens the inevitable."

The reason why other products seem to not do as much damage is they have a lower freeze point which means there are less freeze thaw cycles that the concrete goes through..


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## Matson Snow

show-n-go;911142 said:


> I have always been told not to use salt on concrete. All of the company's that i have worked for in this area have said the same thing, they all use calcium. lol
> 
> I'm not an expert in anything so i'll take you guy's word for it.


Just finished reading a research paper from the Portland Cement Association..cement.org....They say that Magnesium and Calcium Chloride are MORE aggressive towards paved surfaces than Sodium Chloride which is almost benign...Take it for what its worth..Just my 6 cents worth...:salute:


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## jomama45

kbros;909958 said:


> New fancy place put in new sidewalks this summer and they do not want any salt on the new concrete. What can I put on the new concrete that will not damage the new concrete?


IMHPO, I would NOT use salt on these walks for a number of reasons:

#1 The customer has requested NO salt. The contractor could have very well had a disclaimer in his contract against the use of de-icer's. Who do you think will be the first person everyone is pointing their fingers at IF the concrete would see winter damage?

#2 Most ready-mix associations DO NOT back the use of any deicers for the first winter, simply because the concrete may not have reached it's full strength potential yet. It is kind of a blanket I admit, but I would err on the side of caution.

#3 Whatever profit that could possibly be made selling de-icers could quickly & easily be burned up 10 fold in litigation. I learned long ago, "choose your battles wisely."

I couldn't find any info specific to Iowa, but here's a very simple opinion from my state's assoc.:

http://wrmca.com/cmt_technical_pwcc.htm


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## jomama45

Mattsautobody;910800 said:


> what about beet juice??


From what I understand, beet juice is best suited mixed with sodium or calcium as a supplement. I don't know that it is effective all on it's own.


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## Luther

beverlylawncare;911191 said:


> Where sidewalks have large pitting areas ONLY at the bottom of formed handicapped ramps (ie where salt may get slung) yet the remainder of said walks, even aggregate is unharmed using blends or calcium.
> 
> Want pics? I got plenty of examples I could share....


You do realize that the makeup of the "blends" whether it be homogeneous or man made is most likely 90% or more salt.......don't you?


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## Matson Snow

I think it boils down to..Whatever De-icer you intend to use..Use it wisely....More is not better..Use correct amounts for the situations...


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## Dissociative

i salt that cement until it looks all white and ashey like this guy...if it ain't piled up and bone white i did it wrong. 
this thread NEEDS some humor...





i say it's bad.....and if you don;t liek it i'm gonna send Ashey Larry here to enforce it.....


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## kpmsnow

I have a very large landscaping company, (that is owned by an even larger construction company), that has been buying Ice Ban from me for a few years that, they use exclusively on new concrete. Please take this for what it is worth, but they seem to be very happy with the results. I concur with the statement that salt does not chemically attack concrete. As said earlier, salt simply speeds up the inevitable. Bad concrete is bad concrete.


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## tuney443

kpmsnow;912401 said:


> I have a very large landscaping company, (that is owned by an even larger construction company), that has been buying Ice Ban from me for a few years that, they use exclusively on new concrete. Please take this for what it is worth, but they seem to be very happy with the results. I concur with the statement that salt does not chemically attack concrete. As said earlier, salt simply speeds up the inevitable. Bad concrete is bad concrete.


Exactly correct--bad concrete is bad concrete.Unfortunately,just about all masons add water to get more cream faster and to make the slump easier to handle.Usually, this seems to happen on residential or better explained--where there is no inspector watching for someone to give the quick signal to the concrete truck driver to add some water.My Dad was the easiest going guy around and knew every possible detail about all the intricacies of concrete,but even in 95* heat and for an electrical duct bank protector,if one of his men gave that cutesie signal to add water,he'd rip him a new one.More water ruins concrete,plain and simple.This is why everyone thinks salt damages concrete,because it does,but only on poorly mixed/handled concrete.


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## Burkartsplow

All of them work on cement!


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## big schmitty

Combotherm it is a dow product.


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## TommyMac

Were we wash our sanders which is on a concrete pad all the salt has eaten away the concrete & even inside the shop when the trucks come in & sit all night & melt the concrete is coming apart....Make your own conclusions


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## TommyMac

Matson Snow;911238 said:


> Just finished reading a research paper from the Portland Cement Association..cement.org....They say that Magnesium and Calcium Chloride are MORE aggressive towards paved surfaces than Sodium Chloride which is almost benign...Take it for what its worth..Just my 6 cents worth...:salute:


Quick question you said paved....That to me is hot mix asphalt....Also I pave roads & driveways in the summer & you no those little small 1"-1.5"pot holes you know whats thats from, the guys dumping to much diesel on there shovels/rakes, the diesel eats up the "TACK" or emulsion what eva other parts of the country calls it.....it's not from MAG or CAL or SALT


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## cretebaby

TommyMac;915530 said:


> Quick question you said paved....That to me is hot mix asphalt....Also I pave roads & driveways in the summer & you no those little small 1"-1.5"pot holes you know whats thats from, the guys dumping to much diesel on there shovels/rakes, the diesel eats up the "TACK" or emulsion what eva other parts of the country calls it.....it's not from MAG or CAL or SALT


Pavement is any hard surface.

If the Portland Cement Assoc. is talking about pavemant it's pretty safe to assume they are talking about porland cement concrete pavement.



TommyMac;915519 said:


> Were we wash our sanders which is on a concrete pad all the salt has eaten away the concrete & even inside the shop when the trucks come in & sit all night & melt the concrete is coming apart....Make your own conclusions


The milk house floor in our dairy barn is all eaten up and has never seen a bit of salt.

Make your own conclusion.


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## deicepro

This is a good thread, good info, bad info. Who was it or how was it said, something like " I can't compete with stupidity"


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## terrapro

Well a map is flat so the Earth must be flat...

I don't know make your own conclusion.


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## snocrete

cretebaby;915559 said:


> The milk house floor in our dairy barn is all eaten up and has never seen a bit of salt.
> 
> Make your own conclusion.


The cow sh*t is whats doin it :laughing:


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## cretebaby

snocrete;915795 said:


> The cow sh*t is whats doin it :laughing:


Poop is hard on concrete.

Even worse than salt. :laughing:


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## dfdsuperduty

I have never finished concrete but have delivered god knows how many tons in a little green mack granite with a big gray drum on the back that says prairie material on it and spins... it is amazing how many companies give the sign for water because they are to cheap to use plasticizer (i know its spelled wrong). Mainly at residential pours or whenever there is no inspector to check air, slump or psi. Pouring in the winter and sometimes in the summer guys ADD (hold your pants on) calcium chloride to the mix usually around 25lbs per 8yds to make it the concrete harden quicker. I am not a genius if I was I would have gotten out this business a long time ago but isn't that the same stuff we put on top to make the ice go bye bye? Just my peso.


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## Schuley

You are right, they DO add calcium chloride to concrete A LOT. I pour a lot of concrete. My company pours 1000's of yards of concrete every year. I've talked to tons of people about the topic.... 
If you notice some of the poping spots on a driveway or sidewalk....have you noticed what is exposed directly in the center of it? A STONE. Right near the surface of the concrete will be a type of stone that absorbs more water than the rest of the aggregates. When it freezes, being so close to the surface it can cause it to pop the surface cream out. Now the topic gets really complicated, because there isn't a good way to eliminate those stones from the mix. But they have found that the more water in the mix when you pour, the weaker the mix is, making the cement surrounding the aggregate weaker than the aggregate, and it seems to allow more water to penetrate the concrete surface getting to the aggregates. The sidewalk driveway apron at my house was poured by the lowest bidder hired by my town when the road and sidewalks were improved. The curbs were poured with a machine at a 1 or 2 slump, the sidewalks and the driveway were poured by hand at what seemed like a 5 slump. (which has a lot more water) The road gets salted, and the salt ends up in the gutters and the end of my driveway. The sidewalk has minor poping from the salt I put on it, I dont salt the driveway, the car does a good job of that...... The driveway apron is poping like crazy from the road salt. Touching my driveway apron is the curb & gutter, which has ZERO issues from salt or freezing. If you have a driveway unaffected by salt or popping, hire that contractor again! THey did it right! 
Bottom line? It has to do with water/cement ratio, and method of pouring. I've salted the curb and gutter trying to get it to pop, no luck....


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## Luther

Hallelujah ~ another smart and experienced man.

Isn't it a shame soooooooooooooooo many people are convinced salt is the real culprit.

Salt actually exposes the crappy cement or installation job.


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## jomama45

Schuley;916355 said:


> You are right, they DO add calcium chloride to concrete A LOT. I pour a lot of concrete. My company pours 1000's of yards of concrete every year. I've talked to tons of people about the topic....
> If you notice some of the poping spots on a driveway or sidewalk....have you noticed what is exposed directly in the center of it? A STONE. Right near the surface of the concrete will be a type of stone that absorbs more water than the rest of the aggregates. When it freezes, being so close to the surface it can cause it to pop the surface cream out. Now the topic gets really complicated, because there isn't a good way to eliminate those stones from the mix. But they have found that the more water in the mix when you pour, the weaker the mix is, making the cement surrounding the aggregate weaker than the aggregate, and it seems to allow more water to penetrate the concrete surface getting to the aggregates. The sidewalk driveway apron at my house was poured by the lowest bidder hired by my town when the road and sidewalks were improved. The curbs were poured with a machine at a 1 or 2 slump, the sidewalks and the driveway were poured by hand at what seemed like a 5 slump. (which has a lot more water) The road gets salted, and the salt ends up in the gutters and the end of my driveway. The sidewalk has minor poping from the salt I put on it, I dont salt the driveway, the car does a good job of that...... The driveway apron is poping like crazy from the road salt. Touching my driveway apron is the curb & gutter, which has ZERO issues from salt or freezing. If you have a driveway unaffected by salt or popping, hire that contractor again! THey did it right!
> Bottom line? It has to do with water/cement ratio, and method of pouring. I've salted the curb and gutter trying to get it to pop, no luck....


Schuley, with all do respect, chert popping & spalling are two completely different failures. Chert pooping is far more spread out & random, where peeling is more localized & substantial. Maybe it's not an option where you're at, but low-chert stone has been available in my area at least 15+ years & is very effective in controlong the pops. Obviously, it costs more & subsequently isn't used all the time. All concrete also has the design strength measured @ a 4" slump also, so a true 5" shouldn't have serious adverse effects alone if the mix design is honest. BTW, I've found that everyone's "opinion" on concrete slump is all over the map: what one guy thinks is a 3" could technically measure as a 4.5" & vice-versa. You're right though that it has a lot to do with the way it's placed & finished as well as the mix design. 

I'll still say to this actual thread & OP, I wouldn't salt these sidewalks.


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## snocrete

dfdsuperduty;915952 said:


> I have never finished concrete but have delivered god knows how many tons in a little green mack granite with a big gray drum on the back that says prairie material on it and spins... it is amazing how many companies give the sign for water because they are to cheap to use plasticizer (i know its spelled wrong). Mainly at residential pours or whenever there is no inspector to check air, slump or psi. Pouring in the winter and sometimes in the summer guys ADD (hold your pants on) calcium chloride to the mix usually around 25lbs per 8yds to make it the concrete harden quicker. I am not a genius if I was I would have gotten out this business a long time ago but isn't that the same stuff we put on top to make the ice go bye bye? Just my peso.


I would guess that its more of the fact of the finishing qualities of plastesizer , as oppose to the cost difference....for me the cost difference isnt THAT great on smaller pours.



jomama45;916586 said:


> Schuley, with all do respect, chert popping & spalling are two completely different failures. Chert pooping is far more spread out & random, where peeling is more localized & substantial. Maybe it's not an option where you're at, but low-chert stone has been available in my area at least 15+ years & is very effective in controlong the pops. Obviously, it costs more & subsequently isn't used all the time. All concrete also has the design strength measured @ a 4" slump also, so a true 5" shouldn't have serious adverse effects alone if the mix design is honest. BTW, I've found that everyone's "opinion" on concrete slump is all over the map: what one guy thinks is a 3" could technically measure as a 4.5" & vice-versa. You're right though that it has a lot to do with the way it's placed & finished as well as the mix design.
> 
> I'll still say to this actual thread & OP, I wouldn't salt these sidewalks.


Good Post! I agree.


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## tuney443

So after all these opinions and facts to steer this off track as usual{I'll be the first to admit I'm guilty also],to answer kbros's question,I would say for one liquid Magic,simply because nobody knows how well those concrete sidewalks are constructed.


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## mullis56

Where did the Kentuckians go? LOL


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## cretebaby

mullis56;917197 said:


> Where did the Kentuckians go? LOL


They are to busy right now, they had another one of those ice storms where salt don't work.

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## bushinspector

*Solutions*

It would have been nice if everyone would stay on topic but if the customer says they don't want salt that is what you do. After the storm is over what about putting down some sand and / or chert chips.


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## cretebaby

bushinspector;917453 said:


> It would have been nice if everyone would stay on topic but if the customer says they don't want salt that is what you do. After the storm is over what about putting down some sand and / or chert chips.




You are right though. If the customer doesn't want salt don't use it. Then when someone slips and gets hurt they still sue you because you didn't salt it.


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## terrapro

bushinspector;917453 said:


> It would have been nice if everyone would stay on topic but if the customer says they don't want salt that is what you do. After the storm is over what about putting down some sand and / or chert chips.


We stayed perfectly on target. The discussion was about what is safe to use on concrete and then it went to why is it safe or not.

Thats is the other point, if they don't want a de-icer than you need a traction increaser.


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## lawnprolawns

Once I got a bag of magnesium shavings from a machine shop and lit them on fire on my driveway.. that darn near made a moon crater.


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## Matson Snow

lawnprolawns;923946 said:


> Once I got a bag of magnesium shavings from a machine shop and lit them on fire on my driveway.. that darn near made a moon crater.


You Better Patent that...You have the NEW latest, greatest ice melter....Just put it in a pretty package...Put the words Safe for the enviroment on it and you have a license to print money......payup


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## lawnprolawns

Yup, just sprinkle and light, and dont forget to wear a gas mask and face shield.


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## Thesandman23

*Mag. Chloride*

MAGNESIUM Chloride


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## Thesandman23

*Freezgard*

Freezgard Mag. Chloride

I don't know who used mag shavings but those are two different chemical make ups between Mag.Chloride Ice Melt and Mag. Shavings from a Fab Shop.

www.freezgard.com


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## jomama45

Thesandman23;927957 said:


> Freezgard Mag. Chloride
> 
> I don't know who used mag shavings but those are two different chemical make ups between Mag.Chloride Ice Melt and Mag. Shavings from a Fab Shop.
> 
> www.freezgard.com


Interesting advertising on the Freezegard website.

They happen to state that the Iowa State study showed that it was less damaging to turf, but fail to mention that the SAME EXACT STUDY showed that it caused far more damage to concrete thru lab freeze/thaw cycles tests than either sodium or calcium. 

I can't imagine a company adverising in that kind of fashion!!!! :laughing:


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## ARBGIM

*CMA - calcium magnesium acetate is safe on new concrete*

CMA (calcium magnesium acetate) is safe to use on concrete. Only 100% CMA should be used. NOT as a blend that's mixed with salt, or any chlorides.

BENEFITS
• Low corrosion: less corrosive than tap water
• Safe for concrete: safest deicer for concrete, even new concrete 28 days
• Excellent inhibitor: reduces chloride corrosion
• Safe for the environment: readily biodegradable, low toxicity

Here's a chart from a study done on effects on concrete.

http://www.greenicemelt.com/CMAchart-concrete.gif

Also a fact sheet.

http://www.greenicemelt.com/products-cma.htm


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## Bajak

ARBGIM;948273 said:


> CMA (calcium magnesium acetate) is safe to use on concrete. Only 100% CMA should be used. NOT as a blend that's mixed with salt, or any chlorides.
> 
> BENEFITS
> • Low corrosion: less corrosive than tap water
> • Safe for concrete: safest deicer for concrete, even new concrete 28 days
> • Excellent inhibitor: reduces chloride corrosion
> • Safe for the environment: readily biodegradable, low toxicity
> 
> Here's a chart from a study done on effects on concrete.
> 
> http://www.greenicemelt.com/CMAchart-concrete.gif
> 
> Also a fact sheet.
> 
> http://www.greenicemelt.com/products-cma.htm


Did anyone else notice the part that says "Non-air entrained concrete"? 
I'll remember that when I have ice on my basement floor.


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