# Shoveling In Front of Garage Doors



## FatherandSon (Sep 24, 2002)

Been plowing since 1976 and notice a change in customers. Been getting calls recently complaining that I did not shovel in front of the garage doors. I back drag from the doors as close as possible but do not shovel them.

Average charge is $30-$40 per driveway. Most driveways are about 150' long.

One customer asked why I don't get out of the truck and shovel the doors clear. Responded for that price it won't happen.

Does anyone on her shovel out the garage doors? Also are you noticing more complaints, minor *****ing about tire marks off the side of the drive etc?

Happy New Year to All


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## paul soccodato (Nov 9, 2002)

it all depends on, what the customer wants, and is willing to pay for. when i get a call for a residential driveway, i let the customer tell me what they want done. then i tell them how i will do it and how much it will cost them. when you give your estimate's, make sure your figuring in all the extras they want. also when you talk to them, tell them what your doing for your price, driveway only, steps & walks, salt, no salt, etc...


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## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

Myself I do like you do ,get as close to the door as I can then back drag or push across if i can but not that many to do that.Never had any one complain as of yet but who knows what goes thru there mindes.


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## Mike Fronczak (Nov 28, 2001)

I thought long & hard about how to deal with this as well as low pricing, guys that don't stake/repair damage in spring. Till now we have only done one type of residential work, stake all properties repair in spring, we will shovel walks/garage door for additional fee. We do both seasonal & per trip.
Starting next season our contract will have pricing structure as follows:
Basic Snowplowing: Customer is responsible for staking & repairs in spring(we assume no liability, written right in contract).

Standard package: We will stake out drive & repairs in spring(will be about $ 20/season more than basic).

Deluxe package: Standard + walks & in front of garage door shoveled(wiil be around $70/season more than standard).

Hope this helps.


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## fordman (Oct 31, 2001)

I'm also noticing that lately in my area people act like they deserve top quality service for next to nothing. 
In your case FatherandSon, I get out of the truck to clean up depending on the customer. I have a few customers that have been downright rude to me and they always seem to be my cheaper accounts. Get out of the truck for them, yah sure when hell freezes over.


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## greenworldh20 (Dec 28, 2002)

alot of customers ask for cleaning infront of garages, walks and steps. 

we charge extra for this service.


salting drive: $30/application
clean walk and infront of garage: $25/per snow event


we also have season rates for these services also.

if any one has a contract to share, i would like to see it. we will share ours if you want to see it. just email me.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

This came up the other day. Basically, if it can't be done from the cab of a truck, I don't do it.


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## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

Not a garage, but simmillar physically....

I have this one part of my hospital lot that is retaining walls on three sides and need to back drack away from them.. 

Had an argument with the maintainence guy today. Wanted me to get closer. Drive up to the wall and the curve of the blade only allows me to get within 12" or so, "#$%#$" he tells me. Then the side wall I have to back up with the edge of the plow along the wall, I don't want to get closer than 4-6" beacause of the plow gets caught on the concrete wall.. "#@[email protected]#" he tells me.


This guy polishes his shovel all day if you get my drift... The Hospital Admin. completely sees my point. Usually I like to be there and done before 6am (The time he gets to work) just for this reason.

I don't like shoveling, and don't keep one in the truck. I might be a wuss, but getting in and out of the truck gets me a little damp and really cold.

Howard


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## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

No it just leaves you with a good back ,like mick said if it can't be done from the cab of the truck i don't do it


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## Ohiosnow (Sep 20, 2001)

*I never get out of the Truck to shovel*

The only time I get out of the truck at a account is to collect $$$$$$$ otherwise they better call someone else:waving: to shovel.


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## sirsweatsalot (Nov 25, 2002)

> This came up the other day. Basically, if it can't be done from the cab of a truck, I don't do it.


you guys are (EDITED) lazy!


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## Ohiosnow (Sep 20, 2001)

*sirsweatsalot watch your mouth*

Lazy I don't think so I have payed my dues doing little drives many yrs ago & I now have all large lots! 2-3+ acre --2- 4+ acre & a 7 acre lots that I do all by my self 1 truck & salter.  I do some drives but most are for free for friends, family,neighbors  so get off your high horse as I'm far from lazy as I run a Waterwell biz at the same time the snow is flying.


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## lawnkid (Feb 5, 2002)

I think you should shovel the walks on residentials if they are not too long. If they are longer, you tack on an additional fee right. I kinda agree with sirsweatalot too, comeon guys, especially if it is an elderly person. It all depends on what you feel like doing but in my case I would shovel. :waving:


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## Rob (May 15, 2001)

I will shovel in front of the garage doors. I build that into the price. My thinking is that, the person is paying for a service which in my opinion is basically to be able to get out of their house to the street. So, if (unlike my garage) you can get your car / truck in the garage, you can walk into the garage, hop in and go. Since most accounts have door openers, there is no reason for the person to get out of their vehicle to close the door. With the closer, if there is snow under the door it will go back up, so I try to make it so they can just pull out and go. Walks are NOT included, and I will give an additional price on them if they are required but I try to exclude them whenever possible.

I don't really think that there is a right or wrong answer here, probably more of a "what the market will bear" type of thing. If no one shoveled, then no one would have to....know what I mean ?


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## Earthscapes (Feb 2, 2001)

I wasn't going to say anything but,, lawnkid made me "I think you should shovel the walks on residentials if they are not too long"

How do you justify getting out of your truck and shoveling for free??. 
Lets say you have 25 accounts with say 10 foot walks 3 feet wide. 3-5" snow 5-8 min.s,,6-12" 8-15 mins...just approximates here. 

25 accounts with 4" snow = 125min a touch more than 2hrs.
25 accounts with 8" snow = 250min now thats a little over 4hrs

In that time i could have plowed anywhere from 30-60 more driveways depending on the snowfall.


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## firemedic680 (Oct 22, 2002)

Like most , it depends on the account. If they want it , they pay for it . I have one "pet" account , they pay fast , i make a ton of money on them , and have passed my name on to others and have got me more work. I do there walks and in front of their doors , takes maybe 5 min tops. It would be diff if i had 25 of these accounts , but its only the one.


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## a palustris (Jul 28, 2002)

Shovel in front of garage doors, and walkways. That is how I was taught to do it... the right way.


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## Yzal (Jan 6, 2003)

hello everyone.
i have to side with lawn kid and sirsweatsalot here. ohio snow you are LAZY your only 45. im sure if you had a 80 year old mother or a pregent wife and you didn't have time to shovel the walks so they could get the paper and mail you'd want the snow service to, while they are doing the drive way. and if you are to lazy to get out of the truck like Mick why don't you have someone else ride with you too shovel, salt steps, ect. in my opinion we're in the snow removel biz, not just to sit in a truck, but to work. i could sit in my living room and tell people i work hard and payed my dues.


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## OffRoadPlow (Dec 30, 2002)

*Hold on...*

I don't think either is wrong, or anyone is wrong for what they do, or don't. I don't like shoveling, but will for the right price. I don't offer it, but if they ask, I offer a high price for it. I would love to sit in the truck on every job, but is someone is willing to pay "a lot" more for me to get out than so be it. But I don't thinks its wrong for those who don't, and I don't for many. I have some that don't even want Salt... Those are the nice ones, and the ones that I like because I can do what I like to do and what got me started in the first place.... PLOW.

Don't think less of others becuase they don't do what you do. In the end the customer will decide on what is needed. And no matter what, DONT put others down for how they PLOW. It's not your business, it's theirs!

Just my 2 cents....


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

WOW, I think this is the first time I've ever been insulted on PlowSite. You might really want to know the person better before you call him/her lazy or make other personal judgements.


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## paul soccodato (Nov 9, 2002)

mick, i was thinking the same thing.

yzal, you should refer to the thread labled "where is this site going"

you've been here one day, with a whopping 2 posts, you're first post you say hi, and by the second post you're insulting people who have been here a lot longer than you! (and me for that matter)

WHATS YOU'RE PROBLEM!

did you ever think that maybe some guys only want to plow driveways or lots? that maybe they dont offer shoveling services? 

why would you insult someone for not shoveling?

not a good way for you to make friends or gain any respect!


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## Yzal (Jan 6, 2003)

mick i think you stated it your self buddy 


> if it can't be done from the cab of a truck, I don't do it.


i think ohiosnow did to 


> The only time I get out of the truck at a account is to collect $$$$$$$ otherwise they better call someone else to shovel.


if you people want to tell me about making asomptions of others i didn't need to you guys spelled it out for me. right here in this post.


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## paul soccodato (Nov 9, 2002)

and by you're 4th post you're arguing with people.

unbelievable!


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## drobson (Oct 22, 2002)

I have a few accounts that I shovel for, but it's built in the price as others have stated. Of course I make exeptions for the elderly, I even clean off a couple of cars for them. 

Of course I'm not saying that anyone else should do what I do, I'm relatively new to this business (well second time around anyway) so I have to work on getting a reputation for myself and get that free word of mouth advertising going. I'm sure that in the near future I will be looking to dump as many accounts that have shoveling and replace with plow only contacts as I can.

Far be it from me to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing, but if there is one thing I'm pretty sure about, it's that we shouldn't be arguing with each other about trivial issues like who does or doesn't like to shovel. I know that in a few years many people who still have healthy backs will be glad they didn't shovel snow for a living their entire careers.

Ok, that's all.....well, for now anyway.....


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## Yzal (Jan 6, 2003)

point well taken drobson. ok so even if you don't like shoveling walks and what not. but i don't think its putting anyone out just to shovel a little bit away from the garge doors, if the plow will not get right up to it. being that is still part of the drive way and that is what you are contracted to do.


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## chtucker (Sep 6, 2002)

I know Mick has chosen a level of service to provide and is charging accordingly. He probably outlines his level of service when he talks to a customer. He has made a choice not to shovel as do I. If a customer wants that level of service, then I tell them that I can not.

Mick is not hiding the fact that he doesn't shovel, If his customers want that service, they will find another contractor to provide it.

Howard


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## Rob (May 15, 2001)

Yzal,
I think what you're missing is : THAT"S YOUR OPINION !! 

Everyone one here has one and no ones is right or wrong. Shoveling would be a service YOU chose to provide but just because someone else doesn't do this doesn't mean they are lazy. Let me put it in a different context. Let's say you provide this service and someone else does not but does the plowing cheaper... does that make them a low-baller or does it make you a gouger (sp?) All depends on how you look at it.

Secondly, to come on here and attack people that are only giving their opinion (as you did), is uncalled for.

So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you got off on a bad note... Welcome to Plowsite.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Yes, I'd like to welcome you to PlowSite, too. I don't think I was arguing when I posted what I did. I simply stated how I run my business. How you run yours is up to you. That's the great thing about being The Boss (right up there with being responsible for repairs). Heck, I even get to tell myself what to do.


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## SDlawndawg (Oct 9, 2002)

I hate it when there is a bunch a snow stuck to the blade and I don't know it. I pull up to a garage and drop the blade and then big shunks of snow fall off right next to the door. Usually the chunks are too close to the door to backblade. That's usually the only time I shovel by garage doors. Some of my customers open the door so I can reach further in to pull the snow back. I shovel walks but only if it is priced with the job.


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## HerkFE (May 13, 2002)

Wow...and I thought I had started something with my posting regarding opinions.  

Anyway...as far as this topic goes I have to say that as long as the customer knows what they are getting for their money, all is well. Why stop at just shoveling the garage? Why not all the walks, the deck, etc.? And while we're at it why not salt for free? Where do you draw the line for the same hypothetical $35 driveway?

There are all kinds of customers, no matter what your line of work. They percieve a value for the service you provide and as long as they feel they like they are getting their money's worth, all is well. That is called competition, you decide what YOUR time is worth and what margin you want to make and set your pricing accordingly. Just make sure they know what they are getting, that's why everyone stresses the importance of a well written contract. As other threads have mentioned, just the difference between "Plowing" and "Removal" can add up to a real headache when 24" of snow falls.

As for not wanting to get out of the truck..... If I could put in my pocket the same $$$ as I do in my truck without leaving my house/office I would certainly entertain that. I don't think it would make me lazy....but it might make me someone who others call an efficient and organized businessman. 


Just my opinion...


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## Yzal (Jan 6, 2003)

well thank you rob. i guess i finally got everyones point of view now. sorry if i steped on any toes but i guess you all know my name now 
?did that sirsweatsalot fella get banned for what he said in this post? that would suck!


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## Acorn (Dec 3, 2002)

I shovel 1 walkway. It's a leftover job I still have from when I just started out. The lady is in her 80's and once she passes on, I won't be doing any walkways I can't do with a truck or my tractor. I just finished plowing for 28 hours straight for this last storm and I'm not done yet. I am physically drained and don't feel like doing a bunch of walkways. I don't feel lazy. Shovelling is just not what my business offers however there is a huge market for it if your social assistance and think 8$ and hour is a gold mine


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## CARDOCTOR (Nov 29, 2002)

this is almost better than springer 

if you dont want to shovel thats fine but when you lose a few accounts over it dont be offended i use to not get out of the truck but after losing a couple of accounts i bought a blower and a shovel now i make more than before. if its deep snow i have a guy that will shovel for me .

i think some of you guys need to show alittle respect for the other members or this forum will be ruined


cardoctor


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## RJC (Jun 16, 2001)

These are the kind of people I would rather not do business with. If you are like most people you are pushed for time, and it doesn't snow all year long. So figure out whether it is worth it. If not I would ask them to find someone else after your contract is fulfilled.


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## dfor (Dec 23, 1999)

I shovel in front of garage doors, but its added into the price.


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## Acorn (Dec 3, 2002)

I'll do almost anything legal if the price is right. Usually my price is too high. I would shovel a parking lot with a spoon if someone gave me $150 an hour. haven't found any takers yet


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## chris k (Nov 5, 2002)

I'm with Acorn here. I have 2 walks out of about 90 or so driveways. They are both customers from when I started out. Now I don't even offer the shoveling service to residential accounts. Commercial is a different story. There are plently of people out there that don't mind shoveling so I let them do it. I would rather be in the truck plowing a few more dirveways than shoveling a walk.


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## flakesmeangreen (Nov 19, 2001)

40% of my customers have garages and I only shovel one of them; they pay extra for it. Usually it's because they don't want to pay for a higher level of service. My contract states that shoveling is not included. I'll shovel for a fee, but only if they ask. I've yet to get a complaint either. 

If I shoveled all of those garages it would take me 1 1/2-2 hours longer to complete my route. I'll gladly shovel them for a fee, but not for free or in the price they're currently getting charged. It seems to work in my market. I also don't push snow in front of doors like I've heard and seen (I'll post that winner picture some day). Some people understand that a plow cannot get too close to a door and shovel the snow out from the door for me to push it. 

As long as the customer understands what service is or isn't being completed for the price given there is no right or wrong.

-Tim


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## Ohiosnow (Sep 20, 2001)

*Yzal*

You are a real piece of work  you know it all , but I guess you didn't bother to read my other post as it stated that I do all Comm.Lots & FREE drives & not 1 account needs shoveling by me.

And for getting close to the doors it's not hard to do with the plow & as for street sidewalks they are few & far between in this area. 

I think my 28 yrs of owning & running a plowing biz I made the smart choice of accounts that pay BIG $$$$ & not get out of the TRUCK! :waving:

PS: My first job of my snow Biz was as a sub to do sidewalks, (at a large Mall with my CJ-5)


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## Dave1250 (Mar 5, 2001)

*Just my 2cents*

Hi all I feel that if you get out of your truck your chance of falling is going up 100 % God forbib I hope not . But if you fall and cann`t finish your plowing because your hurt, what about your other accounts will they unstand ? I donn`t think so . If shoveling is needed hire a kid or someone and charge what you must . The price of gas is going up will some of you rase your plowing price ? thanks


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## DYNA PLOW (Oct 14, 2000)

Dave 1250 how do you get in your truck or out to take a leak?
i think thats taking it a bit to far saying ya might slip then can't finish your route.............anywho i have a few accounts that require shoveling and you can bet it's priced accordingly,i would'nt have got my last contract if i had said i don't shovel.
picked up a sidewalk that is 40' long told the old lady i'd shovel it for a seasonal price of 150.00 she said cool and wrote me a check,at the rata this winter is going that will more than cover my fuel costs.
dan


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## BWhite (Sep 30, 2002)

*shoveling*

I used to shovel some elderly accounts and cleaned off there cars too but it can be a hassle and it is cold too ! I try to get close to the garage doors but I'm no yahoo and try to get within inches .....I dont want to pay for those repairs .Big storms some customers will complain how much snow was there for them to shovel but I dont think they would want to pay another 25 -30 per storm for me to shovel a double or triple door . They dont ask and I dont tell a shoveling price .I am a snowplower not a snow remover !! Am I lazy who cares cause I am warm and dry in the cab of my truck ...... AND REMEMBER NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Dave1250, you make some very good points that I was thinking earlier today. I got out of my truck last weekend to talk to a customer and wound up falling on the ice covered driveway (not my responsibility to melt the ice there). Knocked the breath out of me, but not hurt. Easily could have, though. Being a one man show, I can't be laid up. I plowed that whole storm sick with pnuemonia (still have it). But what do you do, I'm not about to call in somebody else. Everybody was too busy with their own, anyway. 

Re: price of gas. I had built in planning for a 10% increase in costs. Unfortunately, it's gone higher than even that. I will just eat the cost in lower profit. I figure I made a deal (price), I'll stick with it - just like I expect the customer to do even though we're on track to getting higher than average snowfall for the season.

Yes, I outline service I give from the very first time I meet with a person. The last couple I talked to said they couldn't afford 14" snowfalls like they had just gotten. They didn't want me to plow 3-4" snowfalls, also to wait until they called me. I declined these conditions, sent them a standard proposal and let them know that if they did just call me when they wanted me, it would cost at least $60 (it was a $25 job for 3-6"). 

On the other hand, I do things that others might not. For instance, I make sure drives are well pushed back. After the last storm, I went to a couple of places that could get closed in and pushed banks over the edge of the dropoffs. Plowed a place yesterday that is half a mile long. Had about an inch on it, so scraped it and didn't charge for it (that was where I blew the angle hose). Went by another customer's house this morning on the way to my regular job and scraped up the inch of overnight accumulation to his business he has out of his house. Let him know I wasn't recording it for a charge.

Yes, I charge high. But I give service. I'm not interested in the account that can barely afford it and you have to chase for your money. I dropped one of those last year after the first missed payment. I have great customer retention and get several "Thank you"s in addition to timely payments. One lady told me last weekend "we really appreciate your taking care of our road".

One other thing - the town I live in has no sidewalks. None. Anywhere. And no one is likely to pay me the equivalent of what I get plowing to shovel their deck. Which I wouldn't do, anyway. However, I have given out samples of Magic Salt and showed them how to keep snow and ice from bonding to their decks, steps etc. 

But please keep the ideas coming of how I can run my business better. That's why I'm here, to learn and then apply what seems like it would apply to my situation.


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## Sndun (Nov 2, 2001)

It was said already that there is no wrong or right. For Mick and others who don't shovel, I kinda admire their situation. 

I shovel walks, steps, in front of doors, etc. at all of my residential accounts and most of the commercial. Of course it is taken into consideration when I quote a price but in my area, I would have a small fraction of my business if I didn't provide shoveling. That is also why I have a minimum of two guys with me for each and every storm, so I don't have to get out of my warm seat.


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## BWhite (Sep 30, 2002)

*rate*

what rate do you charge for shoveling ? figuring wages ,taxes workers comp for the shovelers ,the most important profit, etc ??


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## timm9 (Dec 19, 2001)

I have a policy of not getting out of my Truck or my Loader. I'm not lazy but I learned a valuable lesson last winter. Late January got out of my Truck for that "extra service" and fell so hard that I remained on the ground for over 30 minutes until I was able to crawl to the house for help. At the Hospital they had to give me Morophine just to be able to take the X-rays. I thought I was going to end up in a Wheelchair before it was over. You know that really sickening feeling that life as you know it is over? 

I'm not lazy. I have been self employed for 25 years and today was my first day off in the last 20 days. 11 1/2 of those days were 10 to 14 hours runs in my Loader with the heavy series of storms we got including Christmas. The burms go so high from the Motor Graders the Plow Trucks could not break through. I have told my drivers every time you get of of your rig needlessly you run the risk of getting hurt like I did.


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## windmill (Dec 3, 2002)

Hmmmm. . . I have an adult complex that advertises itself as no mowing, no weeding, no snow shoveling, so I get to shovel their drive ways (well not me I hire some young people for a good wage) for five, yes $5 dollars per drive way. I do them starting at a 1" snowfall. As a rule we do 12 -14 drives per hour. We don't usually get vast accumulations of snow at 1 time and when we had a 5-6" dump last year we still could do 6-8 hour. I'm happy, the old folks are happy, my wife is happy (I'm out of the house) my employees are happy. Hey life is not bad. It's a service I'm happy to provide and I'm doing all right with it. I'm usually cleaning the complex roads while the others shovel and when I'm done I shovel a few myself to keep in shape. I'm 48 and can outwork my employees by the time I start, so I look good to my customers as well. 
Oh there are 58 units at this site. So 290.00, 2 people, 2.5 hrs - 3 hrs average.
By the time these youngsters have done 4 driveways they're down to their t shirts and short (almost)


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## Kent Lawns (Jan 18, 2000)

How can you guys be in the snow "business" if you're so thin skinned?


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## speedracer241 (Oct 13, 2001)

*AMEN Kent Lawns*

Not to disrespect anybody but all this bickering is getting rediculous.

And its just not this forum. Its everywhere on the net.

Cant we all just get along 
Mark K


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

Well, 
I sat here and quietly read all the posts....

I do some shoveling but I charge.

It doesnt bother me a bit to shovel, In fact I kinda enjoy it.

What bothers me though, is the truck and plow I paid big money for sitting idle when it could be making money on the few snow days we get and the 7 or 8 people waiting to be plowed while I spend 15 or 20 minutes shoveling some ones side walk that a kid could do.

I have been raising my prices accordingly to any new customers who wish me to wait a week or two with no income, then let my truck sit idle in the drive while I shovel.

No longer will they hire just me to do the walks, but they will hire the whole truck... thats the operator, the truck, the plow, the salter, the snowblower, it's all there when I show up.

That truck will do what ever the customer wants, but the truck gets paid by the hour. If it is sitting in the driveway, they are paying the full cost.

If they would like the garage door shoveled, fine, deck shoveled, fine, windows washed ok. Most do not when they hear the price it really isnt that important to them... But it is to me.

I've been known to shovel for free if my routes all done.

I say shovel the garage if you think its your duty, but if you put the price to it and offer it to your customer dont be suprised if your customer doesnt take the discount and say leave it go.

If you detect an attitude, I had a deal today that was sorta up this ally, I will post another thread on that one.
Maybe this will make more sense to you then.

I hope sirsweats alot and Yzal will have a look.

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=64482#post64482


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## Hawkz (Nov 6, 2002)

Settle down guys, this site is here for all of us. Nobody is better nor less than each other. A discussion is meant to be a reasonable converse between two or more. Not for someone to come on and attack or riducule- but it may be your opinion or such, keep the negativity somewhere else!! Some of the guys on here have been doing this for a lot longer, we should try to learn from them not attack them. 
If you act in an unprofessional way then you need to be dealt w/ like that. I have respect for all and try not to bash others ideas or thoughts. If you need to bash someone then bite your tongue, or else take it like a man, or keep quiet!! Once this sort of s#$t starts then it will be hard to stop, and then we will no longer here. Keep that in mind!- Treat others w/ respect and you will be treated the same. It is easy to sit in the privacy of your home and talk, in this case type trash. Talk is cheap, especially on a computer. Bring on the snow, Hawkz


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## Ohiosnow (Sep 20, 2001)

*Kent Lawns --thin skinned*

"How can you guys be in the snow "business" if you're so thin skinned?"

Not thin skinned but I don't like someone (sirsweatsalot) & Yzal saying I'm F****** lazy.  Actually Yzal only agreed 

Sorry if you think that is being "thin skinned"  I'm done with this thread.:waving:


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

> _Originally posted by Yzal _
> * i guess you all know my name now
> ?did that sirsweatsalot fella get banned for what he said in this post? that would suck! *


Yes, your name is sirsweats.... um, Yzal.

YOU DID get Banned for using that language, and you will be BANNED again, if you use that language again. I should BAN you right now, on principal, but you are getting one more chance.

Remember, when you post, your IP address is logged. I found 2 IP addresses that match exactly.... want to guess which 2?

Please express yourself without using that type of language.

~Chuck


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## firemedic680 (Oct 22, 2002)

And yet we owe another thanks to Chuck for his hard work to keep this site as great as it is. Thanks for keeping it clean chuck and keeping the riff raff at bay .


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## Mike 97 SS (Aug 11, 2002)

Way to go Chuck. Believe it or not, when I read this whole thread, I had a strong gut feeling, that those 2 user names were the same person. No lie, thats the truth. Now getting back to the topic, I dont knock anyone for doing what they want and dont want to do. Its your truck and your plow and your back, you do what you want and thats that. I wouldnt let anyone tell me what to do and I wouldnt tell anyone else what to do either. That way everyones happy.  Take it easy guys, and dont let these newbies piss ya off. Mike :waving:


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## FatherandSon (Sep 24, 2002)

*So Sorry To Start A Riot*

This was my originl post and I never thought it would get into all this. Just wanted opions of others in the business. I am a retired Chief of Police that has been plowing since 1976. I was just trying to say that the customer has changed since then. It seems they want a servant rather than a service.

When I quote a price, average of $35. per drive, I do not plan on getting out and shoveling the garage doors and walks. I do not have written contracts just verbal. $35.00 per plowing, 2" or more. I do not charge extra for deep snow, but I don't think I should be out there shoveling their drive.

These homes are $700,000 and up. It seems they want to save on the plow/grass mowing guy and always want more.

Again I am sorry if I caused all this fracas, just looking to see if anyone else is having a problem with the new "upper crust"..


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## Mike 97 SS (Aug 11, 2002)

No need to apologize. It was a perfectly normal question you asked and everyone here gave good answers, except for the couple troublemaking newbies. By the way, welcome to PlowSite, great site you found here with a great group of guys! Mike :waving:


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## FatherandSon (Sep 24, 2002)

*Thanks Mike*

Thank you so much for your response. Was a little worried that I started a real brawl. Was just trying to see if anyone else was having the problems that I never had before.

I love this site and only wish I had this 36 years ago when I plowed my first drive.

The majority of the guy on here are GREAT and so helpful.

I read it daily and still continue to learn.

Thanks to all of you, but I will continue to bash Meyer.........


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## Mike 97 SS (Aug 11, 2002)

That last line you wrote tells me were gonna get along just fine! LOL Nah seriously though, I agreed to someone on here I wouldnt make fun of Meyers anymore. Ill try to keep my word the best I can, but I can still sit here and laugh when someone else does it, right? Mike


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## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

people swearing, insults flying, bickering, and members possibly being banned
and I wasnt involved,what is this place coming to
FWIW, I picked up 3 driveways this year for the elderly, quoted prices, and plowed the drives.
Got calls when I was done, why didnt you do this and that and the other thing. I said well I wasnt told to do so, and will have to re bill accordingly. They all freaked. 
Now I asked before I gave the price, and no walks ECT were included. One even wanted the car swept off. I said sure that will be 5.00
Anyway, if you are getting paid and making what you want, then by all means shovel the garage doors. if that is an extra and you dont want to provide that service, then no harm. As long as both parties know what is expected then all is good.
That isnt to say we dont do walks. We have 4 places out of the 15 commercial properties we service that get walks done. In fact one place we were the only contractor that agreed to do the walks. In total we have about 2 miles of walks.
Dino


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## SnowMatt13 (Jan 8, 2003)

Shoveling in front of garage doors might be a pain, but it could be looked at as a nice little incentive you give your customers. A way to do something the "other guy" doesn't. But, as always time is money, and everyone's situation is different. But, from experience, I once worked with someone plowing who thought he could get the job done backdraging away from the door. Unfortunately, the dirve went somewhat down hill to the garage, so as he was driving up to get nice and close he slid oh the 3" of snow on the driveway and "bumped" the garage door. Like I said everyone has different situations, but in that case a shovel and 5 minutes would have saved him the account and $750.


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## plowman777 (Dec 15, 2002)

i hand shovel all my drives that need it, i charge 45-60 for all my driveways so i cant see leaving piles around, if anything, people try to stop me from doing too much when they see me shoveling and say dont worry about it, but for an extra 3 minutes i dont mind and i like the exercise....this year i swear to plow sloppier and faster, its time consuming and tiring if the snow is over 9 inches..... yes it is dangerouse to get out of the truck sometimes and i have almost fallen a few times on one really steep driveway, but im thinking better shoes, not stay in where its safe.....stay tuned for my homemade backdrag blade, almost complete cuz i have more driveways that need it and always trying to get more efficient....i did have one old lady that i shoveled her 20 foot walk cuz she said she could find no one else. she has since died and i will never do another sidewalk again.


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## plowman777 (Dec 15, 2002)

i hand shovel all my drives that need it, i charge 45-60 for all my driveways so i cant see leaving piles around, if anything, people try to stop me from doing too much when they see me shoveling and say dont worry about it, but for an extra 3 minutes i dont mind and i like the exercise....this year i swear to plow sloppier and faster, its time consuming and tiring if the snow is over 9 inches..... yes it is dangerouse to get out of the truck sometimes and i have almost fallen a few times on one really steep driveway, but im thinking better shoes, not stay in where its safe.....stay tuned for my homemade backdrag blade, almost complete cuz i have more driveways that need it and always trying to get more efficient....i did have one old lady that i shoveled her 20 foot walk cuz she said she could find no one else. she has since died and i will never do another sidewalk again.


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## Bob V (Nov 29, 2002)

FatherandSon,

Welcome to Plowsite! This is a great site with great info and feed back from all over.

I do shovel some (2) of my customers doorways and in front of thier garage doors.

One guy had a stroke and he has always paid me an extra $5 tip. This year I increased his drive by $5 to cover my shoveling and thought for sure he would stop $5 tip. Nope, I still get it.

One elderly widow I have never uses her door, always goes in through garage door opener. Last year I had to shovel my way to her door just to get paid. ( I think she knew what she was doing ) So this year I increased her also by $5. She has never said anything about the increase, but if she does then I will tell her why.

As far as no contract, I am currently sending them out to all my residentials. I too, have had none, just verbal, but I have never had so many complaints about little things like "do you really have to push up so many stones?" or "can't you dig deeper down to the stones?" and several vacant houses that I have done for a sales person for large real estate firm while the owner are trying to sell, that so far I have not seen any payments and have only a verbal "Just send the bill to the corperate office". And a few that said "We didn't call you, did we" when I showed up to plow 8". In my per push it states more than 8" I will have to charge more, just in case we get socked with a big one, it allows me to go in and plow at 6" and again at 4"

I would rethink about having a per push contract any ways.

I hope I was of some help, and as soon as everyone is busy with snow, they will all calm down, *I Hope!* :waving: 
Sorry so long........Bob V


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## ceaman (Sep 19, 2001)

I tripled my income this year by shoveling sidewalks. I hire 3 people to shovel for me. 

since Christmas Eve I made an income of just over $4,000 from a couple of shovels. Not bad for 1.5 weeks of work...


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

I used to have my driveway plowed back when I lived in a subdivision - the guys (two of them) did many of the driveways there.

I leave for work about 4:00 am, usually before they got there, and would always shovel away about two fee of snow from the front of the garage.

Otherwise, it was never expected that the driver would shovel away the excess snow.


I notice that alot of you seem to include shoveling sidewalks for your residential contracts. That's always seemed odd to me as the practive around here (CNY) is just plow. I have never in my life seen anyone who's had their driveway plowed also have their sidewalks shoveled. I think you guys are being too generous!


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## LB Landscaping (Sep 4, 2002)

Like said by a few others, it depends on the accounts and what the market allows. I have a few elderly people that simply can't shovel (they are year round customers) and I'll take a couple of minutes to shovel infront of the garage or a walk way but yes I'll charge for it too. I would love to stay in my truck but a few of my customers need the service and to keep them I think it's worth it.


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## Mike 97 SS (Aug 11, 2002)

I posted a couple pages back and gave my oppinion which was nothing bad or anything but after giving it more thought I wanna post again. Ok im done, My number of posts went up by 1! LOL. No just kidding. I think if you can get away without doing it, fine, but I also feel that if someone is paying you to "plow the driveway", you plow the "driveway". The part in front of the garage is part of the driveway, isnt it? My way of thinking is, the driveway should be fully cleared, from left to right, and from in front of the garage, right up to it, all the way right out to the street. Im not talking about steps here, you do what you feel is right according to the house design or customer. Just the driveway Im talking here. Think of it this way, not that this has really anything to do with it really. Picture you hire a paver to pave your driveway and he gives you a price and you say do it. Then when he did it, he didnt do the spot, for whatever reason, right in front of the garage. Would you ask why, and make him do it, or let it slide? Id want it done completely. Left to right, top to bottom. My brother has this stupid saying: A to Z. He says when you do something, do it from A to Z. In other words, completely. Just my oppinions after giving it more thought and in no way am I telling you guys what to do and in no way am I trying to start any arguements, just throwing some thoughts out there that werent mentioned yet, and I think they were some pretty damn good thoughts. Hehe. Mike :waving:


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## drobson (Oct 22, 2002)

Mike, I like the comparison to paving the driveway. I personally shovel in front of the garage doors as part of the driveway; however, I also understand that if your contract reads "plow driveway" that it's implied that you will be doing it with the "plow" and not a shovel. 

So I guess what really matters is what is in the contract with the customer. I have had several calls recenty from people that are not satisfied with their current contractor because they have to go out and shovel after they are gone. Most of them are elderly and shouldn't be out there anyway, and have seen some of my advertising that includes snowthrowing and shoveling services. I always keep a shoveler in the truck to handle this aspect of the jobs, this way I still don't have to leave the truck and I get more customers because of the "full service". Of course a little more excercise will probably do me some good.....


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## KenP (Oct 4, 2002)

My simple response is "if I have to get out of the truck, it's going to be EXPENSIVE"


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

Just wondering, when you pave a driveway, does that include pouring cement in the cracks first?

Cause my idea of an A to Z job would be a firm foundation.

Anyway, I'm sitting here wondering why such discusion over this.

First off. Most garages have an over hang so the snow is not as deep in front of the garage.

second. I have yet to see but a couple times it actually needed shoveled in front of the garage doors. get there early, plow it out, let the sun do its job. All gone by noon, including the door strip.

Most people call because they cant get there car out, they just want the bulk of the snow removed. They could give a hoot about weather you get out and clean the gutters while your there.

I cant honestly remember a drive that actualy needed shoveled in front of the garage when I was done.

There might be a 2" wide x 6" tall strip.... and I have been known to jump out on that.

With an over hang on the garage, most times I can get the plow on cement before backdraging.

Maybe this is all just a matter of how efficient you use your plow to begin with? 

I imagine, If I left a 3 foot wide path of 6" snow and plowed in the afternoon... I may need to shovel. ?


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## Mike 97 SS (Aug 11, 2002)

No Sno, what I meant by A to Z means you are getting paid to clear the driveway, so...clear it. In my oppinion, and Im a plower too, the driveway should be perfectly clear of snow when you leave. It shouldnt be hit or miss is what Im trying to say. Im not saying there shouldnt be a speck of snow on it, but it should be clean enough that it looks "completed". No argueing, just stating my oppinion as did everyone else. Mike


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

Ok, I can buy that....  

My goal is 99% clear by end of a full day. 

Baring Temperature extremes and drifting.

(The sun and I work together with just a tiny help by salt.)


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## Yzal (Jan 6, 2003)

ok here it only took me like two days but i figured it out. im sorry for swearing at you and calling some of you "lazy". there is a trend i am noticing with all of your posts. most of you that do not get out of your trucks are from the east coast? im i right. not saying that your lazy over there but its kind of like a ...when in Rome... type thing i think. there is a big difference in the types of houses and properties we all do and what is expected of us. for instence im not sure if this is true for you but is it not brakeing the law not to have all of your walks cleared for mail, paper, emergancy, ect? i think this could be a whole nother topic but i would like to hear everyones ideas.
sirsweatsalot.


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## Mike 97 SS (Aug 11, 2002)

No one cares what you have to say anymore I dont think, and learn how to type and spell before you post next time. I used to go out with an english teacher, I sent her a letter in the mail, she corrected it! LOL. Mike


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

I'll second that...


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## ceaman (Sep 19, 2001)

I just did some math

Yzal = Lazy (Spelled Backwards)

Guess it takes one to know one!


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

Chuck,
Maybe you could share the IP address?
I for one, could use the information.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Maybe I am in the minority here, but when I did residentials, we always cleared the walks. We also cleared in front of the garage door. Part of the reason was that all my residentials were elderly. In my neighborhoods, the younger families shoveled their own driveways, or did them with a blower.

The may sound cruel, but when we shoveled walks I ALWAYS made sure there was enough room for a stretcher to be turned after coming down the steps. I had A LOT of customers that already had a heart attack or two. That's why they hired me to plow AND shovel.

Some of the bigger drives I had in a ritzy part of town also expected me to shovel in front of their garage doors, and we did. I can't say I ever plowed solo. I always had a shoveler with me, so it was really no big deal if he did in front of the garage door(s). The guy was getting paid, so he may as well do something to make the customer happy while we were there.

We also would shovel a little nook in front of the mailbox at the curb. I had one customer that requested it, because he often did not get mail with his old contractor putting a pile of snow in front of it.

Also, in the begining, 90% of my residentials had to be back dragged, and the snow piled on the lawn by the curb. By the time I got out of residentials, the only ones I had left was a half dozen in the ritzy part of town. They always had their cars in the garage, and there was little if any backdragging. We still did in front of the garage doors.

I drew the line at 2 particular things with residentials.

1. I will not clean off your car, and I will not come back and plow when you do finally move it.

2. I am not a valet service, and I will not move your car out, plow, then put your car back!

My pre-requisite for residentials was no cars in the driveway period. It's just too hard to plow at 3am with a car taking up half of the driveway.

I had a sub working for me that got too close to a garage door, and whacked it with the plow. THe customer heard it, and saw it. I had to go fix it. The guy was a real pain, and insisted that the door was shifted since it was hit, and wanted me to fix it. He called me 3 days after it happened. I called the sub, and he admitted he hit it. I went and looked at it. The whole garage was leaning to the right. For some dumb reason, there was no trim on the right side of the door, to hide the edge of the door. The left side had it, but not the right. I told the guy I would put the trim on. He was happy.

Looking at the door on the inside, it was split in 2 places. I ignored that for one two reasons.

1. The guy was a real crabby old man, and insisted on the trim only.

2. The day after it happened, he had a garage door company come and "repair" the door. I got stuck with a $80 bill, to adjust the track, and replace 2 rollers. They whacked him $80, and didn't mention the door was split.

It only snowed a couple of more times that year, and I told the sub to stay 6' away from the door, and hand shovel the rest. We did NOT renew the contract with this customer the next year.

The same guy called me in the spring to paint his garage doors and deck. I did the job, and again, I was sorry. I told him the doors needed to be scraped and sanded first, and he said to just paint them. I chipped what was loose, and gave the doors 2 coats of paint, which made the chipped areas start to lift. He wanted me to give the doors a third coat. I explained my price only included one coat, he got two, and I was done. He was not too happy, (his wife was) but he paid me. Whenever he called after that, I did not return his calls.

~Chuck


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

Well,
reminds me of a story also that might be worth reading.

I had a new apartment lot, all senior citizens.

Unaware of all the insights and quirks of this lot, we recived a heavy snow. 

I pushed all the snow along the walks on one end. that made the walks clear but not a whole lot of access along that side of the lot.

My thinking was that the walks where 100% clear and deiced, I would rather see them walk on the walks and not across the stone lot that cant be cleared 100%. Also, hardly anyplace to put the snow to begin with.

Anyway, Next day I seen wierd tracks and what looked like a lot of activity thorugh these "snow banks" and signs of some mechanical thing drug through the 24" of snow.

Come to find out it was a stretcher from a heart attack call.

After that, I didnt need told, and no mention made... But there is now always clear access to all the doors off the lot. I even backdrag the grass. I also shovel all the walks and garage door openings 100% clear and salt.


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## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

We always do in front of the doors,residential or commercial.Keeps the tennants happy,and makes us look good.Our sidewalk guys are instructed to do this while they are there doing the walks.They just run the blower through once and it's done.Makes it alot eaiser for the guy who plows the lot.We also do it around patios,walkways,or anyplace where snow might spill off the plow and make it look messy.

If it is a quick place then we will get out of our trucks and do it by hand.It's good exercise,and gives you a break from just sitting in the truck.


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## HandyHaver (Oct 14, 2000)

I also have one and sometimes two guys along with me to clear in front of the garage and to do walks & entrances. We also de-ice just about all of my accounts. All of mine are in the ritzy part of town and they don't want anything to do with it. Most are doctors, lawyers or just business people who travel alot and don't want to be bothered. They also pay big time for the service. 

Last Sunday night we got about 1" of slush in my area and I still ended up doing half my route. I am still writing new customers and will be subbing some of my smaller accounts out to a buddy of mine who wants to do them with a blower. This will free me up some to add some larger accounts. I get referal calls all the time and don't think I will have a problem filling myself up again. Must be doing something right

Mark


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## Sno (Jan 12, 2002)

Charging more than 25.00 each Handy?

Just wondering what you charge to carry a crew of three?


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## HandyHaver (Oct 14, 2000)

Hey Sno,

I don't drop the blade for less than 50. I have about 5 in that price range and they go up to 135.00. Nows thats for 0-5".
Main line properties get main line service at main line prices because; hell it's the MAIN LINE

Mark


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## JCurtis (May 14, 2001)

Ok, so there are quite a few one man operations out there. If those operations choose NOT to do walks thats their choice.

However, they maybe limiting themslves to additional profits. I don't do walks as a rule. However I do have a couple of accounts that I will do the front steps/walk and at the garage doors, but those customers are the ones with the larger homes, long drives etc.

I charge extra for those services. If you have someone riding shotgun put them to work, either hand them a shovel or give them a small snow blower and let them do these areas while you are plowing the drive.

One point some people are missing here though... All we can do as service providers is offer service ( no matter what it is ... Plow only or plow and shovel) Whatever services our customers desire is what many of us will provide. Some people only want the driveway done, some want walks, some want walks and garage doors.

No one is wrong for NOT providing a service if they choose not too. Its the individual's decision.


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## FatherandSon (Sep 24, 2002)

*Thanks Jeff*

I starte this post and what you said has made a lot of sense. I thought I was wrong by not doing the doors. I am a one man operation, 56 years old. I don't mind the exercise at all but if I were to shovel the 3 car garages at all my 27 accounts I would going forever and the phone would be ringing, "Where are you?"

This is a very rich area but they are also very cheap. Seems they want to trim lawn mowing and plowing cost to the minimum. I will accept some blame as to not making it clear to them that for $35. for a long wide driveway I do not shovel doors or walks.

Maybe it is just New Jersey but I don't see any plowers doing the doors here. I will make that clear on next seasons prices. Of course if they want to pay a lot extra I will shovel.

Thank you all so much for all the constructive input it is much appreciated.


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## Snow Biz Inc. (Dec 10, 2002)

My experience has been that especially with senior citizens it is a security issue. If the front of their garage area is not cleared, they are worried that the tire tracks show that they have left and not returned, thus leaving them vulnerable to theft. Just concerns I have received from some customers.


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## Snow Biz Inc. (Dec 10, 2002)

Regarding our Commercial accounts, we always shovel all access doors as the SUITS never like to get their feet wet.

Tom Beyer
Snow Biz Inc.
www.snowbizinc.com


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## Mike 97 SS (Aug 11, 2002)

Snow Biz Inc., that was a VERY good point you brought up about the tire tracks. Mike


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## plowman777 (Dec 15, 2002)

looks like you are undercharging....most new custmers in nj should pay 50


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## Snoworks (Jan 22, 2002)

This has evolved into a very informative thread. I service over 200 residential driveways, each year. And this is one of the delema's we face each year, to clear in front of the garage doors or not. The first couple of years starting out in the business, I always shoveled in front of the garage doors. Then as my business grew, I figured out, there was too much time being spent shoveling, and not enough time plowing. 

I have tried everything from having the driver shovel to having side saddles shovel. I even tried having a seaperate crew shovel after the driveway was plowed. Any way you slice it, its tough to recop the dollars wasted on shoveling, IMO. 

This year, I changed my contract to read as follows. Customers who elect to have their sidewalks cleared, will also get the area's in front of their garage's cleared as well. This type of customer is most likely not willing, or capable, to get out of the house and shovel. Therefore, we will clear area's that will complete the job 100%.

For customers that do not pay for additional walkway services, we will not shovel any portion of there property. However, they agree to this by signing our contract, so I don't belive it is a problem. It all comes down to profit margin's. I can make more money plowing than I can shoveling! But sometimes shoveling is un-avoidable, so we provide the service. 

As far as pricing goes we charge no less than $75.00 for a seasonal walkway service. That would be on top of driveway service pricing. $75.00 min. from a single stoop to about 10 feet of walkway. We get about 10 plowings a year. 

I will be raising this to $100.00 min. next year.  

Chuck B.


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