# New State Account



## snowguy1550 (Sep 21, 2005)

I went today on an account for a property that is fairly large. I very much would like to get this account. I have an idea of what I am going to bid on it but would like to hear from the pros! I will do a flat rate (per push) and when we have 6" of snow or more charge a surcharge. Not sure what the flat rate will be exactly, Also we will need to clear snow off of all walkways and sand and salt all of property. Would like to know 
1. What would you guys bid?
2. How much and what type of equip. would be best. 
FYI project manager said he has no special are for piling and no cars will be in lot during time of removal. 
Property includes all of area inside hospital (nothing on commonwealth)

Thanks a bunch guys


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

what if it is snowing during normal business hrs? is there a clause to keep just drive lanes open or a % of all parking area's? also I would think about possibly lowering the surcharge to 4" again at 6" and then anything over 8 is hourly (that is how my contracts are set and seem to work for me) hope this helps a little and good luck also will you be able to store equip and salt on site? i'll be honest very few guys are going to to give any numbers on here we are from all across the map and different markets will support different pricing. I would say a loader and a couple of skids and a couple of trucks remember hospitals are usually 0 tolerance for accumulations and build up


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

With this being a hospital, I would expect there to be an RFP (Request for Proposal). I'd need to see that before venturing a bid. Also, since this is a hospital, I would expect it to be a "zero tolerance" for snow or ice. That's going to change my bidding, considerably. It will also require an insurance policy to specify "hospitals"- a general commercial policy usually does not allow hospitals. The extra premium will also need to be passed along.

Charging for over 6" of snowfall will be irrelevant with this bid.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Guys are gonna love this one. 100k for the year...plow ,salt,sidewalks, bringing staff their coffee and running errands for the Dr.'s Seriously, we could get 600.00 a push and where you live it may bring 1200.00 a push. Just figure how much your trucks are worth per hr. and do the math.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Dont bother with square footage, sidewalk area, snow removal requirements, service level requirements, any of that. We can just guess. It's more fun that way anyhow.

Presuming it's a zero tolerance hospital, and you have to keep it under 2-3 inches, it doesn't matter how big the storm is. A 2 inch push is a 2 inch push. Wether you push once for a storm or five times for a storm. 

I'm going with the Mark O recomendation

Per push $5 - $5000

For equipment, basher style

9.2 VXT w/wings on a Jeep Cherokee, & an 8611 on an F150. V8 of course.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

2COR517;822610 said:


> Dont bother with square footage, sidewalk area, snow removal requirements, service level requirements, any of that. We can just guess. It's more fun that way anyhow.
> 
> Presuming it's a zero tolerance hospital, and you have to keep it under 2-3 inches, it doesn't matter how big the storm is. A 2 inch push is a 2 inch push. Wether you push once for a storm or five times for a storm.
> 
> ...


Well, looks like I don't have to post anymore.  Would you like my password so you can just post as me?

Be that way about it. :laughing: :laughing:


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

I'm just trying to give you more free time to figure out where to put more lights on your trucks.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

2COR517;822610 said:


> ...9.2 VXT w/wings on a Jeep Cherokee, & an 8611 on an F150. V8 of course.


Wouldn't a 4 cylinder use less gas? V8's cost more and use more gas.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Mick;822646 said:


> Wouldn't a 4 cylinder use less gas? V8's cost more and use more gas.


I suppose that's true. But retrofitting an I-4 into the F150 would be cost prohibitive. I'll meet you in the middle and change my recommendation to a six.


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## BMWSTUD25 (Aug 21, 2008)

no reason he couldnt do it with a couple of snoblowers and 2 ford rangers with 7 poly pro blades. oh and a snow ex 575 mini like mine.

cost as follows

12.25 x 2 for the snowblowers =24.50
7.15 x 7 for the snowblowers labor = 50.05
2(50lb bags of salt) x 11.00 bag = 22.00
6 x 3.00 for the snowblower gas = 18.00
35hr x 2hr x 2trucks =140.00
Total cost $254.55 so call it $250 and since your only there like 5 hours yourself its like your making $50 an hour and thats damn good money!!!!
Hope this helps


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Does anyone have production rates for snowblowers in a parking lot? Acres/hr? I wondering about the 28"-32" range machines 7HP-11HP. I'm sure one of those Toro 44" jobs would be faster, but use more fuel.


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## BMWSTUD25 (Aug 21, 2008)

i didnt think about that.........hmmmm bigger snowblowers would be a huge help...maybe take two of those 44" ones and strap them together. then you could attach a sulky behind it and really be productive. might even decrease the need for one of the trucks. now you could charge less and have a better chance at getting the contract!


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## bluerage94 (Dec 24, 2004)

Psych Hospital in NY...good luck finding an insurance carrier willing to write the policy never mind finding one that has a premium under $30,000.


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks guys, I had a pretty crappy day today, coming home and reading this makes just brings tears to my eyes... from :laughing: that is...


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Pennings Garden;823004 said:


> Thanks guys, I had a pretty crappy day today, coming home and reading this makes just brings tears to my eyes... from :laughing: that is...


Glad you found this thread helpful.....


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

This is an awful intensive contract for you to be biting off considering the questions you are asking.

I dont mean that as an insult. 

You are going to be bidding against guys who have done this for years, this size property. And they are going to know down to a science how to handle it and what it entails.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Walk away ,you'll feel better in the morning


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

To the Original Poster: Please don't take my or other's comments as slams to you. Starting with 2COR517's post, it was really jabbing fun at each other. But I agree with procut1 - from the questions you asked, it is apparent that you're probably not ready to take on something like this. That's not an insult, these type of accounts get very intense and liability-heavy. The first thing to do before even considering a bid is to check with your insurance agent. You might find that they wont even write you a policy for it.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Mick - always the voice of reason. 

Seriously, insurance agent first.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

2COR517;823011 said:


> Glad you found this thread helpful.....


This thread is wurthless without pics.............


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## mcfly89 (Nov 2, 2005)

how is a guy supposed to learn if none of you senior members ever share your formula? I've been a quiet member of this forum for quite a while now and have watched the questions come and go with little more than jeering and hostility toward the original poster. The insurance suggestion is a great one. thats a start. I'm quite certain the original poster knows that his rate may be different than yours, especially given the difference in weather, geography, etc. I've been plowing for 6 years now and I still learn new tricks everytime i go out, it seems. I too struggle with pricing. I don't wanna be the cheapest guy out there. I wanna get paid for what I'm worth, but I don't wanna gouge my customers....because they are friends as well as customers. I have tried to talk to local competitors about pricing without getting too exact, and they look at you like you have 3 heads. kinda like the response people get here. So how is a guy supposed to learn? by NOT doing the work as previously suggested? that seems a little ridiculous to me. jus sayin.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

snowguy1550;822451 said:


> I went today on an account for a property that is fairly large. I very much would like to get this account. I have an idea of what I am going to bid on it but would like to hear from the pros! I will do a flat rate (per push) and when we have 6" of snow or more charge a surcharge. Not sure what the flat rate will be exactly, Also we will need to clear snow off of all walkways and sand and salt all of property. Would like to know
> 1. What would you guys bid?
> 2. How much and what type of equip. would be best.
> FYI project manager said he has no special are for piling and no cars will be in lot during time of removal.
> ...


Ok well lets start with the basic info.

What equipment do you currently own or might have access to? 
What is your current insurance like? 500K? one million? etc
Not from your area but what kinda size is this property? looks to be 10-20 acres 
What do you average for snowfall per year? total inches or storms per year

One thing that stuck out at me is the promise that no cars will be in this lot during any removal of snow banks, but at our local hospital there are always cars in the lots since its a 24 hour operation

A large loader with a pusher should be able to do about 1-2 acers per hour on an average snowfall on a large site like this your more than likely going to be useing 3-4 loaders of a decent size like a 950 Cat

For sanding/salting a tandem salt truck would be ideal say one with a 8-10 yard spreader plow on the front would be a bonus,a few smaller spreaders on the back of pick ups would be an added advantage

A couple skid steers would be handy for around light standards and islands and general clean ups that the larger machines can't get to

If skid steers are not an option go with pick up trucks your own or subs

Others on here closer to you can be more help these were just ideas on what to think about

If you can try to pick up the bid specs and look over do so they are great education material,the requirements in them are often complex (thats why many on here gave you the run away now advise) since this is a large hospital you might be looking at bid bonds,2-5 million in insurance and will also list what equipment they require you to own or prove you have access to,and list similar sized commercial contracts you have completed in the past to insure you can handle a job like this one

As stated this might not be the best site to start your commercial plowing wet dreams on....slip and falls,high traffic lots and walk ways,b*tchy staff and visitors,making sure the emergency ward enterances are bare asphalt and zero ice etc etc you get the idea.

No one here was poking fun at you,just at this size of an account if you make one screw up and get sued your finished as a contractor

If you decide to bid this I wish you well and hope you might not bite off more than you can chew and above all else welcome to the wonderfull world of low ball commercial bidding


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## BMWSTUD25 (Aug 21, 2008)

mcfly89;823612 said:


> how is a guy supposed to learn if none of you senior members ever share your formula? I've been a quiet member of this forum for quite a while now and have watched the questions come and go with little more than jeering and hostility toward the original poster. The insurance suggestion is a great one. thats a start. I'm quite certain the original poster knows that his rate may be different than yours, especially given the difference in weather, geography, etc. I've been plowing for 6 years now and I still learn new tricks everytime i go out, it seems. I too struggle with pricing. I don't wanna be the cheapest guy out there. I wanna get paid for what I'm worth, but I don't wanna gouge my customers....because they are friends as well as customers. I have tried to talk to local competitors about pricing without getting too exact, and they look at you like you have 3 heads. kinda like the response people get here. So how is a guy supposed to learn? by NOT doing the work as previously suggested? that seems a little ridiculous to me. jus sayin.


you learn by trial and error......you bid a lot for 50 and they tell you sorry we went with a lower bid. Then you bid the next lot for 20 and get the bid. now you go out and bid 40 on the next lot and lose that bid as well. well now your starting to get an idea of your market pricing....it really isnt that hard to just roll with the punches. This is not something youre going to learn and master over night.


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

murray83;823649 said:


> Ok well lets start with the basic info.
> 
> What equipment do you currently own or might have access to?
> What is your current insurance like? 500K? one million? etc
> ...


I agree with most of what is being said here but, am I right when I thing the parking area is about 60k sq/f? And then the roads and side walks.
Unless I'm very wrong (believe it or not, it has happen once or twice before) 1 (or maybe 2) skid with a 8" pusher, 2 dually dumps with salters and 9' plows and some form of equipment for walks should do the job, right?

But before that make sure you have the people to run your stuff and make sure your insurance covers you...

By the way; I thing that any newcomer should not be asking "how much for this lot" but should rather ask: "what kind of equipment would YOU use on this lot, with these requirements and this snow fall"

Please tell me if I am wrong...


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

mcfly89;823612 said:


> how is a guy supposed to learn if none of you senior members ever share your formula? I've been a quiet member of this forum for quite a while now and have watched the questions come and go with little more than jeering and hostility toward the original poster. The insurance suggestion is a great one. thats a start. I'm quite certain the original poster knows that his rate may be different than yours, especially given the difference in weather, geography, etc. I've been plowing for 6 years now and I still learn new tricks everytime i go out, it seems. I too struggle with pricing. I don't wanna be the cheapest guy out there. I wanna get paid for what I'm worth, but I don't wanna gouge my customers....because they are friends as well as customers. I have tried to talk to local competitors about pricing without getting too exact, and they look at you like you have 3 heads. kinda like the response people get here. So how is a guy supposed to learn? by NOT doing the work as previously suggested? that seems a little ridiculous to me. jus sayin.


WTF! So all the hard work we do bidding, getting some and loosing some, we're just supposed to hand out all our info to any swinging d!ck right. I would look at you like you had 3 heads too if you asked me how much I get for this or that lot, its an insane question to ask! BTW, you actually get snow in Missouri? All kidding aside, when I first got into this business I thought I could handle anything....yeah right. Over the years I have come to learn patience and know when I can and can not handle certain jobs. Now doing this since 2003 I know I'm comfortable bidding certain things and asking questions like "how much for this" is not a question he should be asking bidding a job like that, its lazy, its not professional and its ignorance.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

mcfly89;823612 said:


> how is a guy supposed to learn if none of you senior members ever share your formula? I've been a quiet member of this forum for quite a while now and have watched the questions come and go with little more than jeering and hostility toward the original poster. The insurance suggestion is a great one. thats a start. I'm quite certain the original poster knows that his rate may be different than yours, especially given the difference in weather, geography, etc. I've been plowing for 6 years now and I still learn new tricks everytime i go out, it seems. I too struggle with pricing. I don't wanna be the cheapest guy out there. I wanna get paid for what I'm worth, but I don't wanna gouge my customers....because they are friends as well as customers. I have tried to talk to local competitors about pricing without getting too exact, and they look at you like you have 3 heads. kinda like the response people get here. So how is a guy supposed to learn? by NOT doing the work as previously suggested? that seems a little ridiculous to me. jus sayin.


Well, mcfly, I don't see you sharing your formulas. You must have some insight on bidding after six years.

The OP put this up 48 hours ago. No word since. Is he really serious about the bid? If I had a chance to do this, and had the resources, I wouldn't sleep till I had it figured out. This guy actually received some useful info starting in post 2. Post 3 has useful info. While I was being a wise guy in post 5, I actually provided some help to the guy. You might have to read between the lines a little (very little), but it's there. After a little playful banter, it's back to business in post 13. Help has been given, he needs to run with it, and give us more info if he is serious about the job.

Frankly, it's unreasonable for someone to put up a post like this and ask for a number. No specs, parking area, sidewalk area. No equipment list. Why bother to bid if he only has a pickup and a shovel? And it doesn't matter how many posts a guy has. If I had put this thread up, I would have taken a far worse beating.


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## bluerage94 (Dec 24, 2004)

You have to understand that this site has members from all different levels of business... Some are new and have tons of questions others have been doing it for awhile and have tons of experience, Senior guys are always getting the same questions and often can tell who's looking to bite off more than they can handle. We would all love to have come into any business and be given all the answers, like what to bid, what equipment to use, production rates, contracts... I could go on and on. But the ones that have made it have had to work hard all the way up...Don't expect to gain their experience quickly...its constant hard work and take it slow. Absorb a little advice at a time... What works for one person doesn't work for another... YOU have to decide what a job costs you per hour and what you need to make per hour and your production rates may be different than someone Else's... My costs are not the same as your costs. you need to compete with yourself not against another company. One important note is to make lots of friends in the business, if there was a problem who could you turn to in a jam? You also need to be equally capable of getting the job done and running a successful business... Just my 2 cents...


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Man, i love this place.......way better than Desperate House wives !


I noticed another post that asked production rates for different equipement and he got some GOOD quality answers. Those are the questions to ask. Not how much for a 25 acre, 24/7 site.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

bluerage94;824837 said:


> You have to understand that this site has members from all different levels of business... Some are new and have tons of questions others have been doing it for awhile and have tons of experience, Senior guys are always getting the same questions and often can tell who's looking to bite off more than they can handle. We would all love to have come into any business and be given all the answers, like what to bid, what equipment to use, production rates, contracts... I could go on and on. But the ones that have made it have had to work hard all the way up...Don't expect to gain their experience quickly...its constant hard work and take it slow. Absorb a little advice at a time... What works for one person doesn't work for another... YOU have to decide what a job costs you per hour and what you need to make per hour and your production rates may be different than someone Else's... My costs are not the same as your costs. you need to compete with yourself not against another company. One important note is to make lots of friends in the business, if there was a problem who could you turn to in a jam? You also need to be equally capable of getting the job done and running a successful business... Just my 2 cents...


I kinda like you.

You were much more diplomatic than I would have been.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;825270 said:


> I kinda like you.


Awwww... Another BFF for Mark.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

Superior L & L;824983 said:


> Man, i love this place.......way better than Desperate House wives !
> 
> I noticed another post that asked production rates for different equipement and he got some GOOD quality answers. Those are the questions to ask. Not how much for a 25 acre, 24/7 site.


I agree with this.

I am one who here and other sites tend to answer sarcastically these types of posts.

How can one contractor possibly bid something for another contractor?

Another company who Im friends with pays less than half what I do for salt. He buys it 20 trailer loads at a time. I buy it one at a time.

That right there can put him at a few hundred or thousand dollar advantage PER SALTING on this property.

So by him telling me what HE would charge to salt the property, how does that help me?

He can profit by salting at a price thats less than what I pay for the salt.

How about overhead?

My overhead is ten times what a lot of guys have.

Its also one tenth what others have.

So how does my price help you?

I may have to do that job for a much higher price because of non-direct costs such as rent, utilities, office staff etc.

So that would give you a price much higher than you need to get to make a profit and get awarded the job.

But the guy with a small overhead, who can do the job and profit cheaper is no help to me.

Maybe he can do the job at a 30% profit for him and it may be a 30% loss for me.

So unless youre prepared to post your tax returns, balance sheet, p&l statement, your debt, your current income, and all of your costs........There is no way anyone can help you here.


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## mcfly89 (Nov 2, 2005)

2COR517;824176 said:


> Well, mcfly, I don't see you sharing your formulas. You must have some insight on bidding after six years.
> 
> The OP put this up 48 hours ago. No word since. Is he really serious about the bid? If I had a chance to do this, and had the resources, I wouldn't sleep till I had it figured out. This guy actually received some useful info starting in post 2. Post 3 has useful info. While I was being a wise guy in post 5, I actually provided some help to the guy. You might have to read between the lines a little (very little), but it's there. After a little playful banter, it's back to business in post 13. Help has been given, he needs to run with it, and give us more info if he is serious about the job.
> 
> Frankly, it's unreasonable for someone to put up a post like this and ask for a number. No specs, parking area, sidewalk area. No equipment list. Why bother to bid if he only has a pickup and a shovel? And it doesn't matter how many posts a guy has. If I had put this thread up, I would have taken a far worse beating.


Sure I have some insight...I'd run!! lol

I'm a member of many forums, and why did I join? to learn...just like everyone else here. I know you old cranky farts get tired of answering the same questions sometimes, and sometimes you're absolutely right. Unfortunately sometimes that attitude thwarts efforts by someone who does give a crap...and does want to learn how to operate, what questions to ask, which terms to search for, etc etc. Sure I've been plowing for around 6 years, but that makes me the new guy around here. Several of my competitors here have been doing it for 35 years or more. I plow because I enjoy it. Its peaceful to drive past the idiots in the ditch, pile snow on the hoods of unsuspecting long term parkers, and salt the neighbors yard (hehehe) and the money aint terrible either yanno 



bluerage94;824837 said:


> You have to understand that this site has members from all different levels of business... Some are new and have tons of questions others have been doing it for awhile and have tons of experience, Senior guys are always getting the same questions and often can tell who's looking to bite off more than they can handle. We would all love to have come into any business and be given all the answers, like what to bid, what equipment to use, production rates, contracts... I could go on and on. But the ones that have made it have had to work hard all the way up...Don't expect to gain their experience quickly...its constant hard work and take it slow. Absorb a little advice at a time... What works for one person doesn't work for another... YOU have to decide what a job costs you per hour and what you need to make per hour and your production rates may be different than someone Else's... My costs are not the same as your costs. you need to compete with yourself not against another company. One important note is to make lots of friends in the business, if there was a problem who could you turn to in a jam? You also need to be equally capable of getting the job done and running a successful business... Just my 2 cents...


Excellent post!!



Superior L & L;824983 said:


> Man, i love this place.......way better than Desperate House wives !
> 
> I noticed another post that asked production rates for different equipement and he got some GOOD quality answers. Those are the questions to ask. Not how much for a 25 acre, 24/7 site.


You're absolutely right, I read that one too  I guess my discontent was misplaced in this thread...It doesnt bother me when people with the answers dont share....it bothers me when people with the answers call people asking for help, stupid....because they asked for help. That generally shows who the stupid person really is.



procut1;825459 said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I am one who here and other sites tend to answer sarcastically these types of posts.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone who asks these questions expects to charge the exact amount anyone else posts here. but if a poster has a price in mind, some reassurance by other posters with a high and low range could certainly be helpful regardless of who has what overhead. SURELY we could all agree on that?

Ok I'll shaddup and resume my standard practice of lurking now :salute:


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

I would assume you would need background checks for all employees that would be on site at anytime. It would take a little more than a company that just plows snow I think. There is crazy children running around that place.

Make sure it is worth your while and defiantly CYA. I wonder who was arrested or charged to have it open for public tender? Now I'm going to check in to or up on the Homewood.


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