# Central Hydraulics



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

Anyone run cenrtal hydraulic plows?

Also for salt spreaders?

Pro's / Con's?


I can see for salt spreaders and dump bodies. If I am going to splurge for the extra few grand for it over seprate systems.

Plow pump, body pump, salt spreader engine.


----------



## ProSno (Nov 24, 2001)

I have a 94 ford f-350 diesel flatbed dump with central hydraulics. Personaly its a pain in the a$$ plow is slow, sander okay, dump body fair. Electric over hydraulic plow would be much nicer.


----------



## fordman (Oct 31, 2001)

There's alot more switches to use when running central hydro for plowing. Everythings not in the palm of your hand. Talk to Pelican, I'm pretty sure he's running central hydro in his new snowfighter.


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

I've used both systems and I prefer the central hydraulics. My truck is set up so that it's every bit as fast as any electric plow out there, in fact, flow restrictors had to be installed to slow the plow down for safe use. I've got levers instead of a toggle switch, but I've learned since my purchase that you can get solenoid activated valves to run the plow if you wish.

On my sander, I'd never go back to the pony motor that I had on my V-box. I haven't had any problems what so ever with this sander, while the Town's gas powered units that I work beside have been in for service almost every storm. I just flip a switch to activate the pump and pull a lever to run the spreader. See this thread for photos of my system.

I didn't like the idea of redundant pumps on my truck, so everything runs off the same one. It doesn't put much draw on the truck's electrical system either, which is comforting on long jobs. The lights dim on my Blizzard equipped truck when I run the pump, this makes me a bit nervous when I have a lot of driveways close to each other.


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

I've seen the pics of your truck, it is a beautifull truck, but you added a truck load of unnessary weight to it. Isn't the GVW on that truck 18k?

I am looking in at the just under CDL trucks. 25,590 gvw.

Older Chevy Kodiak, GMC Topkick, IHC 4600,4700 all Lo-Pro, all diesel.

I am looking for this kind of system because I still have to buy hydraulics for a dump body, so might as well get the central instead of pto so I can use for a v box spreader. It's rather close in price.

The plow doesn't have to be on the system. I like the cabcommander from western.


----------



## phillyplowking1 (Dec 19, 2001)

If the price isnt that much more i would go with the central hydro system.


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

It's $1900 for PTO tsuff (not including hoist)

It's $2000 for central (not including hoist)

http://www.centralparts.com/misc-centhydsystems.asp

They have what looks like a complete system.


----------



## phillyplowking1 (Dec 19, 2001)

go with the central hydro


----------



## Alan (Mar 2, 2000)

> _Originally posted by ProSno _
> *I have a 94 ford f-350 diesel flatbed dump with central hydraulics. Personaly its a pain in the a$$ plow is slow, sander okay, dump body fair. Electric over hydraulic plow would be much nicer. *


If your plow is slow it's because there is a flow restrictor or divider in there somewhere that is too small or set too low. The central pump probably makes at least 15 GPM at idle, most electric pumps make a couple gallons. Every system I've seen has had some sort of flow divider to limit flow to the plow side of the system, and they have all used an adjustable flow divider so you could get what you wanted for plow speed.

There's a couple ways to do it, the most common puts the divider ahead of the plow controls. Controlled flow goes to the plow and the rest goes to run the dump and spreader. It can also be set up to give you controlled flow to the spreader and the rest goes to dump and plow, then you can use flow limiters in the plow lines. That keeps spreader speed constant, which may or may not be desireable.

I've seen systems with manual controls or with solenoid valves. The solenoids are convenient, you can put all the controls on one small switch bank right on the shifter of a manual transmission. They are also pricey compared to manual valves.

My preference would be centrals on any truck with a dump body. Also I would have either a front discharge spreader or an undertailgate unit. With either of those you have use of the truck any time you need it with no vee box to load and unload.


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

With those spreaders, I would need a much more expensive bed that can still rust out. Plus still need to buy the $2500 or so spreader part.

10' Stainless V box I can get for $5k hydro or gas.

I have a lift and storage is no problem.

Just trying to cover angles I haven't though of yet.

I am starting to like the central and a completely seprate plow system.

What about the Blizzard 810SS model hooked to central hydraulics? It has the solenoid switches and such?


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

SGF, you're correct, there was about 1000 lbs weight penalty for mt set up, but I bought it for the convenience that Alan has described, I can have the truck converted from hauling to sanding in ten minutes with just a 9/16 wrench. You can check this thread to see a unit the size you're speaking of. The truck weighs less than one with the dump body plus v-box installed, but I carry this weight year round.

For a truck that size, you'd want the Blizzard 8611, and from what I understand, they can be set up to run off central hydraulics. Check with Jerre Heyer on this.


----------



## ProSno (Nov 24, 2001)

Alan, your right there is a valve under the hood (total pain to get to) but if I switch it one way the plow gets very quick but I loose sander flow. I'm thinking of mabey routing the valve inside the cab were I can switch it at will. I totally forgot it was there. Looks like I have a mission for the week.


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

Yeah but that bed can't be converted to a flat bed. I hate pushing pallets in and then having to chain pull them to reach with the forks.

So I guess you gotta find out what your give and take is.

I am not worried about overloading with salt as not many DOT officials out durring the snow, but the rest of the year that extra 1000 or so plays a dramatic difference.

I add up the wieight of truck, skid steer, trailer, driver etc... I come in around 25,000#, so that extra 1000 could put me in a ticket.


----------



## dillyolboy (Dec 24, 2002)

*central hydraulics are the only way to go*

On my truck I have a hydraulic clutch pump running off the crankshaft via an accessory belt. At an idle my front blade angles a tad slower than a brand new Boss straight blade with the electric system. Rev the engine up to 3000 rpm and it flat out flies. They are also far more reliable with no solenoids burning out etc. Much less electical load i.e. the heater doesn't shut off when you lift the blade and they last for years and years.

The person you should talk to is Jon Geer. He has a Honda motor running a hydraulic pump which goes to his valves and a hydraulic reservoir. All this is inside a nice looking little steel box in the front of the box of his truck. Then he has his hydraulic hoses running out of that to his blades. All the controls are in the cab; on/off for the engine, throttle control and the switches to control the blades. IMO, this is an extremely sweet setup. The only problem I could think of is that the Honda engine must be kind of annoying after a while? The definite advantage of this system over the kind I have is that you always have constant hydraulic pressure.


----------



## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

I think that it is a great way to go ,but what i think stops most of us is the cost factor. say you have a dump ,sander and plow set up how much more is it to run with seperate motors and pumps verses going central?


----------



## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

If you went to set up a small dump truck say 1 ton to 2 ton ( f 350 to F 550). I really don't think there is a cost savings for a truck with a plow, body, and sander. I think upfront it may cost you a few bucks more to buy the central hydro system, however down the road the cost savings will appear. No body pumps failing, no sander motor problems, and no plow pump motors. 

However for a central system to work correctly, you need to decided at the start thats the way you want to go. If you try to do it piece by piece it isn't going to ever save you any money. If you want a cental system, find a good upfitter, bring them a truck with 2 frame rails from cab back. Don't get a truck with a body on it from a pooling company, if you do that you have allready gone backwards. Why you ask? Well you are now stuck with a pump from the pooling co. Tell the upfitter you want the body, plow, and sander all off the same system. This will allow him to credit the cost of the electric body and plow pump. 

It will probably cost a few bucks more up front then having a truck with an electric hoist, electric plow pump, and a gas powered sander. However you have 1 pump on this system, and down the road it will be more reliable. However it cost more because its not the mainstream way to do things.

Oh one more thing, spec the right pump. If you decided down the road you may want a sander, or a wing, or whatever. Tell the upfitter to calculate a bigger pump.


Geoff


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

And that one pump will be a lot more productive than the other pumps. 
Offhand, I think my pump is 11 gpm, I can raise a full load of item 4 at idle. I can give it a little throttle while the first section of the hoist is raising, but after that i let it idle, the body goes up too fast otherwise.

Geoff, a question:

My two plow control valves freeze up in sub 25 degree weather, but the other two valves right beside them don't. They are all attached as a common bank, any ideas why? I've found if I let the truck fast idle with the pump on for ten minutes, the oil warms them so they work.


----------



## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

Do you store you truck outside? If this problem is only occuring when you first start you run it is just the cold. My advice start her up, go inside for a cup of coffee then start the run. All our big trucks are stored inside so we don't have this problem, however the next town over leaves them all outside. They come in, start them up and let them warm up for 20 mins, to get the oil warmed.

Geoff


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Unfortunately I don't have a garage, so yes, it's outside. As you said, once it's warmed up it's not a problem, it sounds as if this is a normal condition. I'll keep that in mind, thanks!


----------



## Arc Burn (Oct 21, 2002)

Pelican,you leave that beautifull truck OUTSIDE!!!why i oughta ..........just kiddin,they see worse conditions out plowin so she's alright,i like to pull mine in and let it dry off after the storm so i can go over it,check her out,i also like to leave it in before a big snow to keep the snow off....i could go on and on but i'll stop cause i'm probably depressing you


----------



## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

Pelican - the plow controls are probably like when cold because the run much smaller hoses.Cold thick oil doesn't flow to well,especially threw the smaller hoses and valves.

Any idea what weight hydraulic oil you have in that system ? Maybe going with something a little lighter may help.If the oil is too thick for the temperatures you are using it in you may actually damage stuff like the pump due to cavitation,or blow a hose,as the thick oil can't get threw the relief valve fast enough.Just a thought.


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Thanks wyldman. I've learned to let the oil warm up first, otherwise you can hear the pump starve for oil. I don't know what weight was installed new, but I've been topping off with 15w. I don't go above idle until the pump sounds ok at that speed, but it takes a bit longer for the valves to warm. I'll probably switch to synthetic when a change is due.

Arc burn, my buddy let's me use his shop for maintenance, but no indoor parking available.


----------



## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

You can also run a tank heater,to pre-heat the oil.They have both magnetic and stick on types.Plug it in,just like your block heater.Will help that pump live longer


----------



## Lawn Lad (Feb 4, 2002)

I'm looking at a new dump for next winter (later this summer). I was thinking the 550 with central hydraulics and under tailgate spreader. 

Someone made a good point that if the central craps out on you in a storm your whole truck is down. Why not run the plow separate from the salter so you you're not completely useless should something break down. 

Also - can you get a V plow to run off of central? I'd like a V plow on my salter, even it's not dedicated at plowing. Like to have it to clean up ailes, drifting, aprons, etc. on the salt run if necessary. 

Thought about the stainless bed but decided not to since I don't see keeping the truck for more than 5 years. So if I go with a steel bed and I use it for bulk material, any suggestions on how to preserve the bed or will it not be eaten up after 5 seasons? I thought about the spray in bed liners, but then I'd have to remove that for the landscape season since I can't see mud and muck easily dumping. Mulch and dry topsoil fine, but how often do we dump ideal loads during the landscape season? I also don't see it being economical to spray in a bed liner every season and then remove it. Does anyone use a plastic insert bed liner or anything of this nature? Or am I being to worried?


----------



## OBRYANMAINT (May 20, 2001)

I have a one ton chevy thats about two weeks out and it will have central hydro ,undertailgate and a 9 foot western ultra mount.

curious as to what the solenoid valve to control everything is...I was told it will be a lever in the cab(or group of) and would love to have just the plow control on the left and smaller just like my electric setups... but deninetaly want it to run off of the central system


----------



## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

OBRYANMAINT - You can get electricly operated solenoid valves,which are operated by little switches,or even a little joystick,instead of the bulky levers,but they are more expensive.Your also adding more components which could fail.I'd prefer the good old levers if it was me.


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

How is controling the spreader with central hydro's?

I have seen the dual (Chain/Spinner) valves.

This is the similar hydro kit I am looking at. I don't want off the front of the crankshaft cause it protrudes beond the front bumper.

I am looking at all this for a 24k-26k gvw truck. Chevy Kodiak, GMC Topkick, IHC 4700 all lo pro models.

This kit comes with everything I need to start with for a spreader. Just add extra hoses and valves for other hook ups.


----------



## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

I got 1 word, Parker. Go to your local parker dealer, they will set you up with everything you need. They know this stuff inside and out. 

I would also urge you to look at a crankshaft pump. On a bigger truck like you are looking at it is a better way to go.

Geoff


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

> _Originally posted by GeoffD _
> *I got 1 word, Parker. Go to your local parker dealer, they will set you up with everything you need. They know this stuff inside and out.
> 
> I would also urge you to look at a crankshaft pump. On a bigger truck like you are looking at it is a better way to go.
> ...


Don't have a parker dealer, never heard of them.

This is the truck here. It's sitting at a place that is going to shorten the frame so the wheels are in the right position for the 12' bed I got for it. Just have to figure what the hoists power unit will be.


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

Oops here's the pic.

Either way as you can see, once the plow is on, you can't get under the hood. It tilts fwd.


----------



## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

Yeah,go with a crankshaft pump,no belts,no clutches,much better off with a full flow system.

As far as the power unit for the hoist,run it off the same system,just add another valve to the stack.

Controlling the spreader is way better as well,as you have independant control over the spinner and auger,so you can spread thin and wide,or windrow for laneways.


----------



## Alan (Mar 2, 2000)

You could put a Sno-Way on that. They make a 9 and 10 footer that would be rugged enough for that chassis. The Sno-Way lift is down low and the light frame will pivot down by pulling one pin. That would let you open the hood with not a lot of hassle. 

I assume you have already bought the chassis, so this is no help, but IH offered gull wing doors in the side of their hoods on the medium line, so you could check fluids and belts without having to tilt the nose. I wonder if GM might offer such an option.


----------



## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

Check out this website.They have a 1-800 number and will set you up with any info you need to know.They are in Canada,so it's unlikely you'll actually buy from them,but they are top notch for system design and info.

http://www.driveproducts.com/locations/loc_toronto.htm

1-800 number is on that page


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

The crankshaft one will be out past the front bumper. I don't want that.

I got the truck, body and hoist, just debating on the fluid power.

I am not to worried on the plow. I would perferr a Blizzard or Western MVP plow on it. Don't want to buy another straight blade.

Truck was $4000 3116 cat w/280k miles, allison 4 speed, A/C, and no bed.

12' used flat bed was $500 in premo shape.

Hoist, $1300 plus labor. Off brand (yellow) scissor hoist. Guy installing the hoist will be installing the hitch too.

So I have $5,800 in it already.

Plow about $4,000

10' V-Box hydro or Gas, stainless. $5000

So I only have a few dollars left to play with. Just don't want to put a $4k system in it.


----------



## ChicagoSnow (Oct 29, 2001)

Pelican........

How do you like the "mid body" salt spinner setup you have on your F-550?

If you wouldn'nt mind, how much were the top screens above your dump body? Not to mention the whole truck/snow fighter package?

I am seriously thinking about the same set up, but may do a larger dump body to carry greater amounts of salt ( I realize it would be over recommended GVW - it may be a calculated risk I would assume for my snow/salt operations).

Thanks for your help!

ChicagoSnow


----------



## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Lawn Lad, I was the one who said IMO that it is better to use a seperate power system for the plow. The main reasons being:

If you blow a hydraulic hose (or belt) for the pump, you can still use your electric plow, so the truck is not down completely.

You can still raise your plow and drive back to the shop.

You can mount a plow on the truck that will interchange with other plows you already own, and have to stock less parts.

You can use the plow on other trucks you own, instead of limiting the plow to only the truck with the central hydraulics.

I think central hydraulics are great, but IMO it just makes sense to keep the plow power seperate.

~Chuck


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Chicago, I'll answer your questions on the snowfighter thread , I don't want to tie up this one.

Also, on the first page of this thread I posted a link to a thread with an International chassis with the same style body installed, called "Snowfighter, plus sized".


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

That truck had major brake issues right before he went to mount up bed and hoist. He found a guy who wanted to mess with it so I sold it to him.

Instead I bought a '91 IHC 4700 Lo Pro 25,550 gvw, with 11' of frame behind it.


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

.


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Looks like it ought to make a nice rig. What engine and tranny combo is in it?


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

DT466, 7 speed tranny. Wanted an auto, but not really needed.


----------



## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

7 Speed if it is just a straight 7 speed.

Pro Easy to shift

Con, alot of gears crammed close

Geoff


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

Says 6+1

Yeah you hit the clutch and it almost shifts on it's own.

Still I like the extra over the 5 speed as having 3 with them.

This little guy will be pulling a skid steer.


----------



## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

My favorite tranny is the Eaton Fuller Road Ranger 8LL. This tranny is almost bullet proof, however the learning curve is very hard. You wouldn't want to learn how to drive truck on that tranny. However once you lean how to shift with out the clutch, it is easy. What I like about it, is the gears aren't clusterd close together, you have 1-4 on your low ranger, and 5-8 on the high side. The tranny also has the ablility to drop to deep low range reduction, which gives you 1-4 on the deep low side. This will allow someone to walk a truck out of many places.

Geoff


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

I am used to not using a clutch to drive. It was recommended to me after replacing a spicer 5 speed to use the clutch on the "pin type" trannies.

I believe it's a Fuller 6+1 in this truck.

I can drive almost any truck out there. Or it may take a few minutes to get the jist of it down to drive it.

Notice the CAT 95's and grader in the back ground.


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Geoff, I've found the Roadrangers to be one of the easier trannies to drive, at least the straight ones. Put in an over or under drive it gets a bit trickier.

I used to drive a truck that had some kind of 6 + 1 Spicer in it where you had to go through first to get to low. That one was tough on a hill, it would often get bound up between low and first.

The 4 x 4s are the toughest I've driven, miss a gear and it's all over. You've got to stop and start over, I've never been able to get one back.

SGF, is that a Challenger in the background too?


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

Yeah there are about 7 of them between 3 spots.

Been moving lots of dirt.


----------



## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

Pelican,

The road rangers are easy after you learn them. However I always felt it was easier to teach someone on a 5,6 or 7 speed sycro trans. 

You want to use a clutch on the sycro type trans, however road rangers are with out the clutch, so for most people they are easier with out using the clutch.

Geoff


----------



## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

Take a look at this MA state truck refurbished only 39,000 miles only draw back it's a gasser. good unit otherwise.


----------



## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

No link, Cat


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

Here is that truck with a bed and sides right now.


----------



## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

Sorry forgot to post the link:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2427207596&category=6729


----------



## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

Somebody better buy that thing before the spreader takes a fall  .


----------



## CT18fireman (Nov 30, 2000)

LOL

That is scary.


----------



## SnowGodFather (Aug 1, 2001)

Plastic drums.....enough said


----------



## phillyplowking1 (Dec 19, 2001)

That truck sure would look good with a Blizzard 8611 and a vbox


----------



## mylawn03 (Nov 5, 2003)

Love central hydraulics! Levers are a bit weird at first, but once you get used to them, its totally sweet. You could probably throw an apple 20 feet with just angling the blade!


----------



## 84deisel (Dec 2, 2003)

We have been running central hydraulics on about half of our fleet. They are in use in f350's up to our new peterbuilt. We have had less problems with these trucks than our other trucks with electric powered pumps. Personally I prefer my v-box over the undergate spreaders . With under-gate spreaders you have to keep raising bed for material . We use the under-gate spreaders on our 450's & 550's . The v-box I use is in a Ln9000 single axle that will hold 9 yards of salt and still be legal although requires a cdl lic. I have the lever controls with the dial controls for the spreader.


----------

