# Shovler App



## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

Hello!

We recently signed up as a sponsor and wanted to introduce ourselves.

We recently released the Shovler App on the Google Play Store and the App Store. It is a very simple app that connects people in need of snow removal with people willing to shovel snow for them. This is our first live season, and earlier this week we completed our first jobs.

We wanted to invite PlowSite members to download the app as there are still many places we need shovelers - especially in suburban areas. We missed out on many orders earlier this week because we didn't have shovelers nearby.

Please let us know if you have any questions about the app!

Daniel


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Welcome back.....round two

How does the Insurance portion work?

Can you explain the hiring process?

Do you offer health insurance?

Workman's comp?

Vision insurance?

Dental?

Details.....it's all in the details


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Hey
Welcome back,
So, let me get this straight.
Your here soliciting contractors.

Then in your add you paint contractors as unreliable .


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

One more Q

What constutes $55 or $85 of work.
In other words what is the scope of work that this price reflects?


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

1olddogtwo said:


> How does the Insurance portion work?
> 
> Can you explain the hiring process?


We are basically an app that offers leads to snow removal jobs. We don't handle the insurance portion. We also are primarily for snow shovelers. If you are operating a plow, you can knock on the home's door and ask them to sign the required paper work.

Anyone can sign up to shovel snow. They just require a stripe account to receive payment.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

SnoFarmer said:


> Hey
> Welcome back,
> So, let me get this straight.
> Your here soliciting contractors.
> ...


This is more a knock on long term contracts with contractors. From our customer research one of the main demand drivers for an app like this is that some people have had bad experiences with contractors that promised to arrive within 4 hours of snow fall and did not arrive until the next day. Shovler is on-demand.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

SnoFarmer said:


> One more Q
> 
> What constutes $55 or $85 of work.
> In other words what is the scope of work that this price reflects?
> View attachment 168614


This is based on the amount of snowfall accumulation in an area. That screenshot is actually from before we decreased the radius limits. Now a shoveler can only see jobs within 10 miles, so all home jobs will generally be the same price and cover homes that have up to a 2 car width x 3 cars in length, an average walkway, and average sidewalk.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

I see this going swimmingly


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

The app is definitely meant more for a more neighborhood community feel - where nearby neighbors shovel a neighbors driveway. We are working on getting more coverage throughout the country, but figure that people on this site could find the app useful to pick up other jobs in the area.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Shovler said:


> This is more a knock on long term contracts with contractors. From our customer research one of the main demand drivers for an app like this is that some people have had bad experiences with contractors that promised to arrive within 4 hours of snow fall and did not arrive until the next day. Shovler is on-demand.


Ok I'm a shoveler
I say I'll take the job,
I don't show for 4hrs becuse I was "shoveling" another drive first.
What is the diffrence?
That there wasn't a contract?
What does it matter if the work is not completed?

You see all of my work is done on a seasional contract basises.
Would my customers ever have to waite.
Maybe, but they also would never have more than 3" in their drive.



Shovler said:


> This is based on the amount of snowfall accumulation in an area. That screenshot is actually from before we decreased the radius limits. Now a shoveler can only see jobs within 10 miles, so all home jobs will generally be the same price and cover homes that have up to a 2 car width x 3 cars in length, an average walkway, and average sidewalk.


Are you saying you are paying a solver $85 to shovel a 2 car x 3 car drive?
At what depth of snow?

And if your paying $85 to shovel it what are you charging the home owner?

Most contractors in a 10 mile radius can do it for less than $85 with the sidewalk
Salt if needed and they will also have insurance.

An insureed service provider is essential as even a soveler can Have a injury or cause dammage.
Will the home owner have to file a claim on their homeowners insurance if this should happen?

Or the car that is scratched, while brushing off the snow That BMW with a floor broom, who is going to pay.
Or for the bent wipper?
Some guy from a app or you?

Or do you cover them?

When they hire a contractor this question is easely answered.


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## Dirtebiker (Nov 10, 2016)

I hate it when my wipper gets bent!


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Ok
I had a beer.
Maybe we got off n the wrong foot?

Are you trying to mobilize every 14-15yr old who thinks they can shovel
Enough drives to buy a new x-box and a new T.V.?

Or the unemployed?

Becuse the rest of us have jobs or are gong to school.
What I'm getting at thay will have to waite for littel jhoney to get out of school
Or Jo-blo to get out of work this could mean a 4-8 hr waite time.

I guess, I could use the app and send out my shovelers as subs
Then contact the homeowner directely.
Offering our service from a insured provider at a lower rate.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

Snofarmer - Thanks for the questions! 

Your first question was about waiting. Snow shovelers are only allowed to accept one job at a time from the app, and are expected to arrive within an hour of accepting a job. If the requester messages us that the shoveler isn't there, we cancel the job and ban the snow shoveler from the app. In the future we plan to either have a messaging system so that they can communicate or a way to penalize snow shovelers that don't arrive on time.

You are right, that there is a market for insured snow removers. Ours is more for the "gig economy". Similar to the way that everything now is moving to a "tasker" market. There are thousands of people that make money on TaskRabbit, Postmates, etc... We are doing it for snow shoveling. We are essentially a craigslist to find snow shovelers. 

As we discussed in another thread, most homes in America don't have snow removal contracts, but occasionally even they want to take a break from shoveling snow. In the past, they hired their neighbor to do it for them. These teenagers aren't insured. We are just connecting them to each other. The app is for the users that just want to hire anybody to shovel snow.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

Snofarmer- I realized I missed your question: 

"Are you saying you are paying a solver $85 to shovel a 2 car x 3 car drive?
At what depth of snow?

And if your paying $85 to shovel it what are you charging the home owner?

Most contractors in a 10 mile radius can do it for less than $85 with the sidewalk
Salt if needed and they will also have insurance."

Yes - in some situations we pay a shoveler $85. Keep in mind, that also includes shoveling the walkway and sidewalk. 

The premium that is being charged on the app vs. a local contractor, is for the convenience factor. If you look at our competitors that use plows, some of them charge $150+ for an on-demand plow service. That is why I think people on plowsite could benefit from the app. We offer good job availability for good prices.

We take 15% of the job fee and the shoveler gets the rest. Shovelers are also penalized $5 for every star below 4 that they get and 1 star rating needs to be reviewed by us. 

The app may not be for everybody, but for the contractors that want to get more jobs, it can be an easy way to find new ones.


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## SPSully (Dec 7, 2016)

While I understand what you are trying to do... like Uber had issues, uber of shoveling will have issues. Like the experienced snow clearing guys are pointing out, there are a slew of issues that can (and will) pop up. Your customers will be paying for a service, and as such there is a liability. Paying the neighbor kid 20 bucks is like buying lemonade from their stand. Nobody expect the lemonade to meet FDA standards until they go the store or online retailer and pay for it.


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## SPSully (Dec 7, 2016)

additionally like I wouldn't do Uber without carrying the insurance on my own to cover my assets, I wouldn't work for your app unless I was insured for that kind of work. If I am going through the trouble of insuring everything on my own, why wouldn't I use the app once and get contracts with each customer??


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

SPSully - You are definitely correct. We are trying to market ourselves a little bit differently than Uber does though. Uber has created a business where you are "ordering an Uber". The drivers are essentially employees of Uber and users consider themselves interacting with Uber. We are more like Craiglist. They understand that they are using Craigslist as a way to find an independent person to do their job. 

You definitely could use the app to get contracts with the customers from the app. Most of these customers are clearly using the app because they prefer to use an on-demand service rather than a long term contract.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

You didn't answer the fine points

At what depth is the snow for the drive and footage of sidewalk you quoted at $85.

Who will be doing your "gigg's?
In other words who are you targeting?
It's not the employed or the student.
And how could the employed or the student provide quick service and be someone who has a clue?


And really, guys are getting $150 to plow or snowblow this drive?
Again at what depth of snow?

Becuse that is a $40 -$50 dollar drive at best around here depending on the depth of the snow.


You do see why I ask this?.

Becuse you are a middle man.
You have no liability

So why shouldn't the homeowner go to crags list?
Becuse thay could find a licensed and insured contractor looking for a "gigg"
So what if he doesn't show in a hr, call the next guy.

Arn't we all looking for a "gigg"

You see you are the compition that has no stake in the game while we do.
How do you think you would be greated by us ( ligament contractors)?

Who can and do offer timely service at a lower rate?


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## SPSully (Dec 7, 2016)

SnoFarmer said:


> How do you think you would be greated by us ( ligament contractors)?
> 
> Who can and do offer timely service at a lower rate?


timely, professional, insured.......


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I think Sno pulled a ligament...

Legitametly....


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

SnoFarmer said:


> You didn't answer the fine points
> 
> At what depth is the snow for the drive and footage of sidewalk you quoted at $85.


We create prices based on numerous factors that drive the supply and demand. Things that go into these calculations are things like depth of snow, amount of snow shovelers in an area, how cold it is outside, etc... We try to find the sweet spot where we have interest from both snow shovelers and people that need their snow removed. We are continually working to refine this.



SnoFarmer said:


> Who will be doing your "gigg's?
> In other words who are you targeting?
> It's not the employed or the student.
> And how could the employed or the student provide quick service and be someone who has a clue?
> ...


We are targeting the types of people that are part of the gig economy. The same people that do tasks on TaskRabbit and Postmates. We do believe college students will be some of our best shovelers so we are focusing there too.

You have to check with TaskEasy about how many people are paying the $150 - but you can check their website and try to order a plow on demand and that is generally the price you are going to get quoted. I can't speak to how many people are using it.

People love convenience today. I hope you can appreciate how much easier it is for customers to be able to log onto the Shovler App and select check out and easily order a snow shoveler.

We may not be perfect yet in terms of covering every part of the country yet, but the vision of having a snow shoveling app that has enough snow shovelers available to accept all jobs is something I hope you can appreciate as being extremely useful for the community.



SnoFarmer said:


> You do see why I ask this?.
> 
> Becuse you are a middle man.
> You have no liability
> ...


I hope you don't view Shovler as a competition but as a potentially useful tool. We are offering you free job leads. If our backend programming would allow me I would not take a fee at all this season from contractors as I understand the extra benefits of having you all as part of the platform and I will look into next season bringing down the fee for professional contractors from 15% to 5% or something like that.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I'm not going to pay you to find work for me.

At the rate you charge I could buy a radio add,that wouldn't limit me to a 10 mile radius.
Or utilize cragslist or facebook.
Or bang on doors.

Just say'en.

My price is the same reguardless of the temp outside.

Still, you sidestep what is the scope of work that is involved in this $85 drive.
This included the most important part, the depth of the snow.


Ps
I get it your looking for a gigg yourself.

Like I saide I paid you to have the snow brushed off of my 75k truck.Now it's all scratched.And the guy who did it is gone,
Are you going to pay for the damages? Nope.
You see you got paid, yet your going to shrug off all responsibelity .

A contractor or a person who does this for a living and not to earn enough for there next bottle, I mean a gigg.
Will take diffrent level of care, will know not to use a floor broom , take responsibility in such instances.



It's a nice ideA.

Good luck


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Pss,

If we know the depth then we can estimate how long it will take somone who 
Doesn't do this for a living could posibely complete the work in.
Or how long will they have to Waite untill the work is completed as physical abilities vary.
1-2-3hrs? Or more?
A contractor can Do it in a more timely fashion.


Again good luck,
I'll sit back and read now
I think...

Ha


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

Ha. I appreciate your thoughts and concerns. I hope as the app gains more momentum you'll understand it a bit more. 

The benefits of individuals is that although it may take longer for them to complete the job, they will generally be able to arrive at a job sooner because they don't have other jobs in front of the one they accepted. Most professionals have other jobs they have to complete first. Also, the travel distance may be longer than a neighbor down the block.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

So how are you handling the fact that in most cities, townships, whatever, to legally work you have to have a business license to collect money for services performed. Technically the kid next door that shovels the driveway for $40 is performing an illegal act without said business license. And to take it a step further what about paying appropriate sales tax to each jurisdiction. In my state we had to collect transaction privilege tax for any labor provided to the city and state. Luckily the law changed here and we don't have to do that anymore for just furnishing labor or maintenance type work. But there are a lot of places that still have this requirement. How are you handling that? And I'm sorry but the guys on here are going to view you just like the National property management companies because they are middlemen just like you are. Unless you changed the structure to providing all insurance, self employment taxes, sales taxes, work comp, etc. for the jobs they do using your service. I can see that being a benefit. Then I can bring on a guy and pay him $15 per hour without worrying about paying any of the above for them and then I can pocket the remaining $70. I would probably use a service like that.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

Thanks. Most states allow individuals to shovel snow.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Shovler said:


> Thanks. Most states allow individuals to shovel snow.


Yes with the appropriate licensing and tax licenses.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> Yes with the appropriate licensing and tax licenses.


Thanks. Not going to get into legal discussion on this - but we have spoken with legal counsel before starting the venture.

Hopefully some people on the site will find our app useful for them.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Sorry bud we have your number. Your just like the nationals trying to come in and take a chunk of money that's out there in snow removal without doing any of the actual work. It will be interesting to see if your app takes off. If it does then there are some really smart guys on here that will figure out a way to use it to their advantage. For example there is a thread on here concerning residential removal with tractor blowers in Canada. Some big budget company came in and gobbled up a ton of accounts. Apparently they one of the largest providers in the area from what I can gather. Well the more established guys are currently in the process of taking their business model, improving on the delivery time, and taking all their customers and running them out of town. Good luck, I'll be watching to see if you start providing service in my area. If you do I'll start turning in the people who providing the service without the appropriate local licensing.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

First off, props for sticking around through the thread.

What I am gathering is the customer pays you, then you pay the person shoveling snow. Is this correct? What if in a year I make enough from you that would require a 1099? You guys by law have to send that our correct? Technically I would be a subcontractor, wouldn't I?

Could I also use this app to find a some people to help shovel sidewalks (commercial) for a few hours if my guys need a break, or don't show. Like a temp agency for shoveling. I'm not sure how insurance would work in that situation, but I think if you could work that out it would do good for you.

I understand you're targeting the person who just wants some extra cash, but how will you guys choose who you'll use as laborers? I wouldn't want a felon who just got released from prison and can't find a job to be shoveling my driveway while my wife is home alone while I'm at work. In my mind and app like this, home adviser, or something similar seems safer than Craigslist, but in reality it sounds like with your app anyone can take a job.

How much info will you guys need from me? What happens if I clear the snow, and 5 hours later grandma falls and breaks her hip. Am I in the wind never to be seen again, or will I randomly get a call that someone is suing me. If so, I would be covered, but not the 16 year old kid you get also signing up. With something like this they usually sue you first, then your insurance would come after mine. Just curious how that would work.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> Sorry bud we have your number. Your just like the nationals trying to come in and take a chunk of money that's out there in snow removal without doing any of the actual work. It will be interesting to see if your app takes off. If it does then there are some really smart guys on here that will figure out a way to use it to their advantage. For example there is a thread on here concerning residential removal with tractor blowers in Canada. Some big budget company came in and gobbled up a ton of accounts. Apparently they one of the largest providers in the area from what I can gather. Well the more established guys are currently in the process of taking their business model, improving on the delivery time, and taking all their customers and running them out of town. Good luck, I'll be watching to see if you start providing service in my area. If you do I'll start turning in the people who providing the service without the appropriate local licensing.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I think I must be failing at explaining the benefits for you better, and why we are not competition but a lead generating service that you should hopefully find useful.

Most contractors focus on signing up service contracts and don't focus on on-demand orders. That makes a lot of sense. On the other end though, most homes don't want service contracts. They are capable of shoveling snow or simply prefer to use local snow shovelers. These people have been marketed by plow services for decades but still refuse to sign up for service. These people are willing to pay a small premium for the convenience of on-demand, remote ordering.

We are going to be offering contractors the ability to pick off jobs that are near their routes. We didn't anticipate such a poor reaction from people on this site, but considering the reaction, as mentioned before, we will definitely work on creating a professional account where our fees will be lower for professionals.

We are not stealing jobs from contractors - we are expanding the snow removal market by organizing the underground economy of snow shovelers. We are creating a nationally known marketplace whereby people in need of snow removal can easily post their jobs to find someone to come rather than try and locate a snow removal business in their area.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

sounds like a national provider for shovelers....take 30% and get nothing for it


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Shovler said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way. I think I must be failing at explaining the benefits for you better, and why we are not competition but a lead generating service that you should hopefully find useful.
> 
> Most contractors focus on signing up service contracts and don't focus on on-demand orders. That makes a lot of sense. On the other end though, most homes don't want service contracts. They are capable of shoveling snow or simply prefer to use local snow shovelers. These people have been marketed by plow services for decades but still refuse to sign up for service. These people are willing to pay a small premium for the convenience of on-demand, remote ordering.
> 
> ...


Some of us have worked really hard to squash the underground service markets in our areas. I personally don't want it around. They drive down prices and train the public to expect pricing that only an illegal service provider can provide. You originally said that you were catering to the neighbor hood kid, not the professional contractor. The reason these people haven't signed contracts is because they know they can get some kid or someone running an illegal business to do it for 1/4 the price. But it's always going to be a problem, and there will always be professional licensed contractors working with the local and state levels to squash this problem. Had a similar situation with Home Advisor. They pissed me off so I dropped their service. Then found the other guys who were providing services for them. Most of them were unlicensed contractors. Myself and a couple other local contractors turned them into the Contractors registry in my state. They fined the unlicensed guys out of existence and now home Advisor keeps calling me stating that they have absolutely no providers now for my area and want me to sign back on. Yea right.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> First off, props for sticking around through the thread.
> 
> What I am gathering is the customer pays you, then you pay the person shoveling snow. Is this correct? What if in a year I make enough from you that would require a 1099? You guys by law have to send that our correct? Technically I would be a subcontractor, wouldn't I?


JMH - Thanks. Yes, this crowd is definitely hostile, but I think we will get stronger by going through the fire  Really i'm surprised by the negative reactions, as the app will only be a benefit to the people on this board. I may be failing at explaining it and i'm sure some people are also prone to fight change. Look at the thousands of taxi drivers in NYC that still own medallions and are fighting the move to Uber, Lyft and Via.

No. The money flows directly from the user to shoveler. They are being hired directly.



JMHConstruction said:


> Could I also use this app to find a some people to help shovel sidewalks (commercial) for a few hours if my guys need a break, or don't show. Like a temp agency for shoveling. I'm not sure how insurance would work in that situation, but I think if you could work that out it would do good for you.


That's an interesting concept. We will definitely consider offering something like this for next season.



JMHConstruction said:


> I understand you're targeting the person who just wants some extra cash, but how will you guys choose who you'll use as laborers? I wouldn't want a felon who just got released from prison and can't find a job to be shoveling my driveway while my wife is home alone while I'm at work. In my mind and app like this, home adviser, or something similar seems safer than Craigslist, but in reality it sounds like with your app anyone can take a job.


Yes - we allow anyone a first time shot at shoveling. We view it discriminatory to not allow reentering adults the ability to shovel snow.



JMHConstruction said:


> How much info will you guys need from me? What happens if I clear the snow, and 5 hours later grandma falls and breaks her hip. Am I in the wind never to be seen again, or will I randomly get a call that someone is suing me. If so, I would be covered, but not the 16 year old kid you get also signing up. With something like this they usually sue you first, then your insurance would come after mine. Just curious how that would work.


People hiring snow removal off the app are basically hiring non-experts in the field. They have a different expectation hiring non-experts vs professionals.


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## Dirtebiker (Nov 10, 2016)

If the client pays the labor directly, how do you get paid?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

They are going to charge per lead like home advisor I'm assuming. That seems to be the standard.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Shovler said:


> Yes - we allow anyone a first time shot at shoveling. We view it discriminatory to not allow reentering adults the ability to shovel snow.


At least with home advisor the customer knows that the person showing up has been background checked. They know they won't be hiring a felon to service their property. They do this for a reason. There are a lot of predators out there and not if but when someone commits a crime through your service you won't have much of a defense if you didn't at least do due diligence in screening the provider with a background check.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

We are not going to get into a legal discussion on here. But generally it is illegal to discriminate against hiring people with convictions in their background.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

Dirtebiker said:


> If the client pays the labor directly, how do you get paid?


We take a percentage of the lead. But the price a shoveler sees on the app is what he will get paid. We are going to look into offering a lower fee price for professionals next season.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Shovler said:


> We are not going to get into a legal discussion on here. But generally it is illegal to discriminate against hiring people with convictions in their background.


In my state you can't get a contractors license if you are convicted of a felony.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

"Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex and national origin," said Amy Ridenour, president of the National Center for Public Policy Research. "It does not ban discrimination based on character.

Like a sex offender shoveling you drive while your wife and kids are at home.....

*Individuals who have been convicted of a felony often experience difficulty in securing employment because many employers choose not to hire them. Just as employers may have policies in place that may result in termination upon the conviction of a felony, they may also have policies that weigh against hiring convicted felons. However, a series of laws may prevent an employer from having a blanket policy against discriminating against employees who have been convicted of a felOny.*


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

now that we got that ^^ out of the way, let's get back to discussing his App...benefits, if you'd use it, etc. and give him some more helpful feedback

thanks all :waving:


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## SPSully (Dec 7, 2016)

I'm still trying to figure out how one could think than app letting people make "extra" cash doing what puts food in their table is a good idea.

I'm going to have a guy make an app for me for a couple extra bucks. That app will be "like a craigslist" for people to write apps "per gigg". Then I'm going into a forum for guys who write apps professionally, I'm going to pay to be a sponsor on there so they know I'm "legit". Then I'll tell all those guys who write apps to feed their family and the families of those who work for them that my app is going to help help them by letting know nothing hacks that haven't been vetted in any way do their job.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

OK so back on track then. As you have seen you are going to get pushback from the professional snow and ice management folks. Because you are catering to the general public instead of limiting access to professionals. If you would have rolled this out in a similar platform like Home Advisor or Angies List where only screened, background checked, insurance carrying, professionals are allowed to be service providers, then i think you would have a better if not good response from the community. 

You have to understand that we battle unqualified, non professional, uninsured providers of snow removal on a daily basis. They undercut the pro and drive pricing down to unrealistic levels. Hence the reason that now people are having to pay $150 plus for an emergency/flag down clearing of their property. A lot of us on here will fight tooth and nail to prevent any new unqualified lowballing providers from popping up in our area. Not everyone, but some like myself will take the extra time to research the local laws and regulations, and report the people who are ultimately taking food off our tables because we have made the decision to operate a legit business. Since the government makes so many rules and regulations which cost vast amounts of money to comply with you can see why we go after those "underground community" of operators who have zero overhead because they are operating under the radar and hoping to not get caught. I am all for competition, but trying to compare a legit business with someone who is trying to extra beer money and hoping not to get caught is not competition. Competition can only exist if each competitor plays by the same exact rules. 

So no, I will not be using you app. Unless you changed it to cater to the professional. If only screened pros were the ones receiving the leads, I would almost certainly at least try your service for a season. I have shovel monkeys that always would appreciate more work and this would be another hands off way for me to procure that extra work for them.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I have to agree with the negative feedback. I am nothing compared to come of these guys. Even with my lower overhead, i still have to be legal. I understand you see a market in getting the average Joe with a shovel some extra pocket money, but to a professional, it's taking money out of our pockets. That's where the hostility comes from. I personally won't be using the app, at least not for now. Seems like a lot of liability, and I don't want to be the guinea pig to deal with it. I do like that I'd only have to pay if I get the job, as opposed to paying per leads that never pan out. Maybe in the future I'll look into it more.

Good luck to you.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

It's a shame h


Michael J. Donovan said:


> now that we got that ^^ out of the way, let's get back to discussing his App...benefits, if you'd use it, etc. and give him some more helpful feedback
> 
> thanks all :waving:


Michael This Thread is a waste

I would hope plowsite would screen their sponsors /vendors better. PS should have known better after the first round with this guy couple weeks ago.

To the new sponsor..... a fool and his money have departed, I gotta give you a little credit to hang around this far, pretty obvious that everyone is against this app here in the principles you stand by.

Your entire gimmick is a slap in the face to the professionals.

I've said my piece


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

1olddogtwo said:


> It's a shame h
> 
> Michael This Thread is a waste
> 
> ...


then why post in it if it's a waste...as I said, back on topic. he is a site sponsor, is posting here for feedback and/or advice on his App and has withstood some of the uncalled for comments. so, again, please offer your feedback or move along.

thanks


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

No worries and thanks for the feedback. I think some users here still might find the app useful - even if they are silent.

I imagine Uber had the same reactions from taxi drivers when they announced their app. 

It is good to get your feedback and we'll take it into account next season as we make updates and how we can be more friendly to professionals. 

I do think there is a gut reaction that many of you are having - and not realizing that the app is aimed at opening up the market and making it easier for YOU to find new jobs. And if you convert them to service contracts - we welcome that you to do so. 

As I discussed in the other thread, it is likely that less than 15% of homes have a service contract with a professional. What if the other 85% use the app for on-demand services? Those are extra jobs that professionals now have access to that didn't exist before. And when you perform well, you can convince them to become service contracts. 

These are real jobs that are being requested and for good rates. As many of you said, higher than what you would charge. People are willing to pay a premium for on-demand and convenience. We are both increasing your pay and offering real, immediate job leads - with the potential to upsell them yourself to service contracts.

Once again, maybe this season there is a lot of skepticism from this community. But I assure you, we will take these issues that you raised seriously. Hopefully by next season the tone of this conversation will be better.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Shovler said:


> The premium that is being charged on the app vs. a local contractor, is for the convenience factor. If you look at our competitors that use plows, some of them charge $150+ for an on-demand plow service.


I'm not going to get into all the specifics, but I do have a question regarding this one.

Where did you get this info?

Because where I live--average of 75" of snow per year--a seasonal contract will go for as low as $190 unlimited up to $350. Actually, I'm not sure anyone gets $350 for the size drive you are referring to. I don't. I can't.

They aren't even going to pay the $85 for a 1 time plow for that size, and we actually get snow. 20 trips for a residential is pretty average, if not low. I'm willing to bet in most areas that receive regular snow and aren't in Jersey, CT, and Mass you aren't even going to get close to that. Shoot, there's a guy from the UP that couldn't even get $50 for blowing a 1,000 long driveway.

Good luck, but I'm pretty sure your market research does not relate to reality.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Shovler said:


> Those are extra jobs that professionals now have access to that didn't exist before. And when you perform well, you can convince them to become service contracts.


But only if you limit the access to verified professionals running a legit business. If you leave it open to the general public this is a service that will help us.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Shovler said:


> opening up the market and making it easier for YOU to find new jobs.


We don't shovel driveways.

Unless you consider a 100HP tractor with an inverted blower a shovel.

In that case I have 3. And their routes are full. And I'm not taking on extra work that will cause my employees to lose more sleep, and create the likelihood of damaging my equipment or the customers property because nothing is staked. In which case I can't service my contracted customers.

But it all depends on your definition of a shovel.


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## Shovler (Jul 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm not going to get into all the specifics, but I do have a question regarding this one.
> 
> Where did you get this info?
> 
> ...


Mark - we are not the first on-demand snow removal app. The $150 rate is a rate that a major competitor quotes and I don't know whether people use it or not.

But yes, the on-demand market pays a premium for not having to sign a service contract.

This winter, considering the extreme cold conditions, will likely lead to more on-demand jobs.

We would be thrilled to have you guys give it a try and download the app. Maybe you'll make some extra money and be surprised by how helpful it is.

FYI - I am going to be spending less time responding to every post on this thread as I still have to get other work done! But I will definitely be visiting the thread at least every other day to discuss questions/issues/feedback and potentially post some jobs that we are having a hard time filling in remote areas.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Shovler said:


> The $150 rate is a rate that a major competitor quotes and I don't know whether people use it or not.


For snow removal?



Shovler said:


> But yes, the on-demand market pays a premium for not having to sign a service contract.


I understand. But you missed the point. Entirely.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

As JMH mentioned, the only reason I might think aboot using it is trying to find shovelers, but there's precious few of those aroond.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Hey Mark just FYI at least for my zip code that's what Home Advisor lists as an average cost of a one time removal


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

ktfbgb said:


> Hey Mark just FYI at least for my zip code that's what Home Advisor lists as an average cost of a one time removal


How do you get a quote without putting in all your info?

I don't want phone calls, emails and all kinds of crap.


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

ktfbgb said:


> Sorry bud we have your number. Your just like the nationals trying to come in and take a chunk of money that's out there in snow removal without doing any of the actual work. It will be interesting to see if your app takes off. If it does then there are some really smart guys on here that will figure out a way to use it to their advantage. For example there is a thread on here concerning residential removal with tractor blowers in Canada. Some big budget company came in and gobbled up a ton of accounts. Apparently they one of the largest providers in the area from what I can gather. Well the more established guys are currently in the process of taking their business model, improving on the delivery time, and taking all their customers and running them out of town. Good luck, I'll be watching to see if you start providing service in my area. If you do I'll start turning in the people who providing the service without the appropriate local licensing.


They're pretty small still. Trying to expand into more cities than focusing on density in each city prior to expansion. Not to popular in their home city as of yet.


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## KildonanSnowRem (Oct 17, 2015)

Shovler said:


> ...
> 
> I imagine Uber had the same reactions from taxi drivers when they announced their app.
> 
> ...


Yes. And taxi drivers hate Uber (at least in my city). To us, you are Uber and we are taxi drivers. Uber doesn't pander to taxi drivers anymore, it markets to average people to be drivers. You should be doing the same.

To be fair, I totally support what you are doing even though I'll get flamed by everyone on this board. If this disrupts the industry, (I don't think it will to be honest), that would be pretty impressive.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

KildonanSnowRem said:


> Yes. And taxi drivers hate Uber (at least in my city). To us, you are Uber and we are taxi drivers. Uber doesn't pander to taxi drivers anymore, it markets to average people to be drivers. You should be doing the same.
> 
> To be fair, I totally support what you are doing even though I'll get flamed by everyone on this board. If this disrupts the industry, (I don't think it will to be honest), that would be pretty impressive.


It's free enterprise, the market at work. Some people get rich, some fail.

Does it bother me that I have hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment and a competitor starts up with a $20 shovel? Somewhat, but those aren't the customers I want. And I don't really see much demand in high snow areas for a $150 one time clearing on a normal driveway.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> How do you get a quote without putting in all your info?
> 
> I don't want phone calls, emails and all kinds of crap.


If you go to home Advisor. Then select the snow removal service. Once you do that you can click on a button that shows average cost for service without putting any of your info in


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> If you go to home Advisor. Then select the snow removal service. Once you do that you can click on a button that shows average cost for service without putting any of your info in


I think I'm the menus there is a true cost guide tab. That's what you want to see their average for your zip


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Shows $160 for my area. 

Never happening for a 1 time clearing on the driveway size the OP is using. There's morons that will charge that for the season.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I see 2 contractors in my county, never heard of either. Not that I know all of them, but still........


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Shows $160 for my area.
> 
> Never happening for a 1 time clearing on the driveway size the OP is using. There's morons that will charge that for the season.


I hear ya. I do use it to my advantage. I charge what they can find on there for a one time plow. Every once in a while they will bite. When they don't I don't care as I have enough work as it is and would rather go home and sleep


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## Dirtebiker (Nov 10, 2016)

Shovler said:


> We take a percentage of the lead. But the price a shoveler sees on the app is what he will get paid. We are going to look into offering a lower fee price for professionals next season.


So, the client pays the loborer AND you separately?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Dirtebiker said:


> So, the client pays the loborer AND you separately?


No, customer pays contractor, then the contractor pays the app.


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