# Equipment needed for this 5 acre condo



## loafer4christ

We were given the opportunity to subcontract the snow removal at this high-rise condo association. Contractor seems to think that this property requires two dedicated plow trucks, a skid steer with 8ft pusher, and backhoe with 12 ft pusher. From my experience this site should only need 1 plow truck and the skid with pusher/bucket, but I agreed to dedicate a second truck as needed depending on the storm and a second skid for storms over 1 ft. Is this an acceptable approach to this site in your eyes?

Site background

5 acres of asphalt parking lots between both sections, roadway is township responsibility
Rectangular basin in left-hand section has 4 ft fence on all sides, but snow can be tossed over fence if need be
Smaller section has 2ft tall railing along northern edge of lot, but snow can be tossed over by skid
Parking in main section is about half full and small section is less than 25% occupied


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## ScubaSteve728

The skid and truck will service the client well, the truck can plow the roads and the longer larger areas and the skid can do the rest in a timely manner. 
It would be cool if the residents could all park in the same side of the lot near their building to make it easier for you to plow instead of having to dodge cars. I would not dedicate 2 trucks and a skid to the site unless it is a big storm.


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## John_DeereGreen

Skid with a hydraulic wing plow and a competent operator could handle that alone.


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## leigh

I think it would depend on the level of service they expect.They may want it hit hard and often rather than spending a couple hours clearing. Is that really 5 acres?


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## Philbilly2

looks to be on five acres, not 5 acres of plowable lot to me


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## ktfbgb

Philbilly2 said:


> looks to be on five acres, not 5 acres of plowable lot to me


X2 I was wondering if I was loosing my mind.


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## Philbilly2

And a hoe with a 12 ft box on it... not sure where you are even going to use that in there. Skid will be more than ample


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## Mark Oomkes

Is the contractor from Missouri? 

Goes by the moniker of Antlerart?


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## loafer4christ

Philbilly2 said:


> looks to be on five acres, not 5 acres of plowable lot to me


The total asphalt area, including parking spaces, is 5 acres. 3.5 for the larger section, and about 1.5 on the smaller section. Total sidewalk is 1.5 linear miles, 5 ft wide.


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## loafer4christ

Mark Oomkes said:


> Is the contractor from Missouri?
> 
> Goes by the moniker of Antlerart?


Not that I know of, contractor is local and seems like a good company to work under, but the equipment requirements are unnecessary and what is keeping us from landing this job.


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## loafer4christ

leigh said:


> I think it would depend on the level of service they expect.They may want it hit hard and often rather than spending a couple hours clearing. Is that really 5 acres?


Yes, 5 acres of asphalt, not including township roadway


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## 1olddogtwo

Agreed one skid steer and one truck.

Of the 5, lots of that square footage will be lost with vehicles


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## loafer4christ

ScubaSteve728 said:


> The skid and truck will service the client well, the truck can plow the roads and the longer larger areas and the skid can do the rest in a timely manner.
> It would be cool if the residents could all park in the same side of the lot near their building to make it easier for you to plow instead of having to dodge cars. I would not dedicate 2 trucks and a skid to the site unless it is a big storm.


This is my thoughts exactly, but was told that the site is too large for one skid and one plow. I never count on residents moving cars to desireable locations, usually they park in the corners where you would like to stack.


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## Mark Oomkes

The contractor is an idiot.


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## loafer4christ

John_DeereGreen said:


> Skid with a hydraulic wing plow and a competent operator could handle that alone.


When I first saw the site I thought the same thing, but I would not want my one machine on site to go down and have to play catchup. I have never used one, but the HLA snow blade looks like it would be very productive on a site like this. Do you have experience with them? How durable are the wings when they hit curbs?


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## loafer4christ

Mark Oomkes said:


> The contractor is an idiot.


I would say he is being overly cautious because they got in trouble on this site last year when we had our 28" blizzard. This was with a different subcontractor who couldn't handle the job.


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## Broncslefty7

1 truck with a plow, 1 skid with a pusher or a plow should bang this out in 2 hours....


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## Mark Oomkes

loafer4christ said:


> I would say he is being overly cautious because they got in trouble on this site last year when we had our 28" blizzard. This was with a different subcontractor who couldn't handle the job.


Then he's being an overly cautious idiot.

Planning equipment around a once every 10 year 28" blizzard is ridiculous. I'd need at least 5x as much equipment as I have, probably more. Not to mention personnel.

And they got behind? Yeah, so what? Everyone gets behind in a 28" blizzard. Unless you live someplace that regularly receives that mulch snow, no one is going to be able to keep up with it.

And so what if the lot isn't cleared in the normal amount of time, it isn't like the residents are going anyplace, because the muni's are going to be behind as well, so residents would get out on the roads and get stuck.

Plan for bigger dumps? Sure, but that doesn't mean dedicating 2-3x as mulch equipment as necessary for every single snowfall.


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## ktfbgb

Mark Oomkes said:


> Then he's being an overly cautious idiot.
> 
> Planning equipment around a once every 10 year 28" blizzard is ridiculous. I'd need at least 5x as much equipment as I have, probably more. Not to mention personnel.
> 
> And they got behind? Yeah, so what? Everyone gets behind in a 28" blizzard. Unless you live someplace that regularly receives that mulch snow, no one is going to be able to keep up with it.
> 
> And so what if the lot isn't cleared in the normal amount of time, it isn't like the residents are going anyplace, because the muni's are going to be behind as well, so residents would get out on the roads and get stuck.
> 
> Plan for bigger dumps? Sure, but that doesn't mean dedicating 2-3x as mulch equipment as necessary for every single snowfall.


Exactly. We get a couple storms per year that will put out 20-30 inches. Sometimes more from a single storm. Even for a place that regularly receives snow accumulations like this when it happens everyone is behind. Even the city plows don't hit the tertiary streets for 48-72 hours during these events. The contractor needs to be more realistic.


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## Broncslefty7

Mulch equipment for snow?:hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead::hammerhead:


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## Philbilly2

Mark Oomkes said:


> Then he's being an overly cautious idiot.
> 
> Planning equipment around a once every 10 year 28" blizzard is ridiculous. I'd need at least 5x as much equipment as I have, probably more. Not to mention personnel.
> 
> And they got behind? Yeah, so what? Everyone gets behind in a 28" blizzard. Unless you live someplace that regularly receives that mulch snow, no one is going to be able to keep up with it.
> 
> And so what if the lot isn't cleared in the normal amount of time, it isn't like the residents are going anyplace, because the muni's are going to be behind as well, so residents would get out on the roads and get stuck.
> 
> Plan for bigger dumps? Sure, but that doesn't mean dedicating 2-3x as mulch equipment as necessary for every single snowfall.


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## John_DeereGreen

loafer4christ said:


> When I first saw the site I thought the same thing, but I would not want my one machine on site to go down and have to play catchup. I have never used one, but the HLA snow blade looks like it would be very productive on a site like this. Do you have experience with them? How durable are the wings when they hit curbs?


Yes. I have 3 of them. They'll out work a push box by 50% and a Kage style plow by at least 20%.

This is the perfect account for one. That's why I say one and one machine will easily do this account. If it took more than 3 hours with a 2-4 inch snow I'd be shocked.

We've got 1 HLA and 2 Metal Pless wing plows and they're all I'll run.

Listen to Oomkes. He knows what he's talking about and he's dead on right, the contractor trying to sub you is a complete idiot with his expectations.


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## loafer4christ

It seems everyone is on the same page as I am regarding the necessary equipment. Any recommendations on how to get this account despite the contractor insisting on the extra machine. His property manager called me the afternoon after I told the owner we wouldn't put the unnecessary backhoe there. I am hoping they will talk it over and give us a call back, but I know the owner is going to seek another contractor. Should I wait another day and reach out to the manager again or leave them to make their decisions? It is getting late in the season for finding a contractor with equipment sitting around so I hope that works to our advantage.


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## loafer4christ

John_DeereGreen said:


> Yes. I have 3 of them. They'll out work a push box by 50% and a Kage style plow by at least 20%.
> 
> This is the perfect account for one. That's why I say one and one machine will easily do this account. If it took more than 3 hours with a 2-4 inch snow I'd be shocked.
> 
> We've got 1 HLA and 2 Metal Pless wing plows and they're all I'll run.
> 
> Listen to Oomkes. He knows what he's talking about and he's dead on right, the contractor trying to sub you is a complete idiot with his expectations.


What size machine and plows do you run?

I don't intend on backing down, but I would very much like to gain the trust of this contractor and get this job. It's not work we need, but would be a great addition to our accounts.


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## rick W

Two suggestions. 
1. bid your price with the equipment you need, and tell the guy you are the pro and know how to do your job with some references to back it up
2. give him a second quote, including the necessary equip. You can call one of the large rental firms and book a 580 hoe for $1500/month, and a used 12' box for 1500. Add that cost plus some labour, profit and bs fees to the cost and throw that in. 
Learned a long time ago that if they tell you what they want...dont argue. You gave him good price...and you gave him higher price to do what he wanted. They can pick one. If they go with higher price with hoe, park you truck and use the rental hoe and put the hours on that and save your wear and tear. Just an idea.


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## John_DeereGreen

loafer4christ said:


> What size machine and plows do you run?
> 
> I don't intend on backing down, but I would very much like to gain the trust of this contractor and get this job. It's not work we need, but would be a great addition to our accounts.


L175 New Holland with an 8-13, Toolcat 5600 with a 6-11, and a Bobcat s750 with 8-13 Liveedge.


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## highlander316

I think I know exactly where that place is as I drive by it everyday. Backhoe is almost worthless there.

Does the contractor have you also do the walks? I would do like everyone else said and you stated; 1 truck and 1 skid for normal ops, with a back-up on call. I can see the contractor's concern about the blizzard as it seems most plow contractors were way over their heads and got annihilated from being way overbooked and under prepared. Some places weren't even touched for at least 24hrs after the snow was over, which although we had 30" of snow, was ridiculous. A lot of the brickman subbed places were terrible. 
What I would do, give references from clients that you serviced during the blizzard. It'll help show that you can handle it.


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## leigh

Another thought.On one of our larger jobs we just hit it with all our trucks to knock out the bulk of snow.Then we all go our separate ways and leave a cleanup truck or skid.


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## Mark Oomkes

leigh said:


> Another thought.On one of our larger jobs we just hit it with all our trucks to knock out the bulk of snow.Then we all go our separate ways and leave a cleanup truck or skid.


I understand what you're saying, but it's 5 acres, and the contract holder wants 4 pieces of equipment. And a good portion of that 5 acres is going to have cars on it.

That mulch equipment on that small of an account has more potential for hitting another plow truck than clearing it faster.


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## loafer4christ

Just an update...

Contractor gave us the job agreeing that we would have two trucks and one skid steer working on the property. I plan on breaking the second truck off to work on other properties as soon as possible. I agreed to bring in a second skid for storms over 1 ft, which we don't get too often, probably average once per yr. This will work well for us as we have extra machines available for rent on an as needed basis and we won't be required to have another operator every storm.

For any new businesses out there, never be afraid to turn down work if you think the contractors demands seem unreasonable. Plowsite members are very helpful to check your thoughts with.


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