# Your opinion on my pricing.



## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Ok , i know this topic has been talked about ALOT, but im in a tight spot and i would like to know what everyones opinon is of my pricing and what they think i should do in this situation cause im scratching my head in confusion and its driving me crazy.. I have a commercial lot that takes me approx. 3 hours to plow in a 2-3 inch storm , approx. 1-2 hrs to clear all the sidewalks and around the building. My contract also states that i wont be plowing or shoveling till 2" of snow is down. The owner looked over the contract and the prices and signed the contract .Now i don't salt,sand anything ,i just plow the lot and shovel the walks like i said. I thought since he was a new customer i was cutting him a good deal. I charge $145 per hour, per truck and i was including shoveling in that price. I thought that was an awesome deal! (stupid on my part). We had 2" the other day i gave the guy the bill and he had a check to me the next day . Now yesterday he calls me hollering that the bill was way to high, it was about $500 with tax and time . He said a guy he had (probably 10 years ago) charged $275 1"-6" , $350 6"-12" , over 12 it was $100 per hour and if a machine had to be brought that would be extra. sorry this is so long let me know if im missing any info and let me know what u think.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

grassman222;1446367 said:


> Ok , i know this topic has been talked about ALOT, but im in a tight spot. i would like to know what everyones opinon is of my pricing and what they think i should do in this situation cause im scratching my head in confusion and its driving me crazy..
> 
> I have a commercial lot that takes me approx. 3 hours to plow in a 2-3 inch storm , approx. 1-2 hrs to clear all the sidewalks and around the building. My contract also states that i wont be plowing or shoveling till 2" of snow is down.
> 
> ...


It would be really nice *if you would use the enter key on your keyboard*, as my 40+ year old eyes have a difficult time deciphering your block of letters, and I know I'm not alone with this..

Thanks !

$500 doesn't seem excessive to me at all to plow a commercial lot. Although, what takes you 3 hours might take another guy here, with more experience ,2 hours to do because of either his skill level or his equipment

How many trucks are you using to plow the lot ?
How big is the lot ? IOW, square footage ? 
Access to the lot ?
Place to put the snow ?
Lineal foot for the shoveling? and width ?
Barriers or other protrusions in the way, or is it a big rectangle ?

Distance to the job, as I charge a little more if I have to travel > 1/2 hour.

i'm sure there are more details that need to be exposed in your quest to see if you're charging right or not.

*EDIT:

You got 2" of snow yesterday ????? Really ???? The roads here didn't even get a coating*


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Tell him ten years ago you could buy gas for $1.50/gallon and minimum wage was less than $6. It's called inflation. It happens. How about walking onto his store and throw a fit over whatever it is he is charging and tell him ten years ago you could buy for half as much. I honestly don't know what people expect these days. For an entire crew of guys on site clearing snow I think that it depends on how many shovelers you have. You said you only have one truck on site, unless I read it wrong. Is there any equipment on the job like a backhoe or a loader?


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

He signed your contract. Stick to it. If you really wanted to be nice, you could go the route of peteo1 stated. If he trys to get out of the contract, sue his a$$ for breach. Thats what contracts are for ( for both partys to understand what the other party is expected to do)

Good luck!


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Cash the check 

In the state of NJ it's ILLEGAL to stop payment on a check for services rendered. It's called check fraud.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Ok , i know this topic has been talked about ALOT, but im in a tight spot and i would like to know what everyones opinon is of my pricing and what they think i should do in this situation cause im scratching my head in confusion and its driving me crazy..

I have a commercial lot that takes me approx. 3 hours to plow in a 2-3 inch storm , approx. 1-2 hrs to clear all the sidewalks and around the building. My contract also states that i wont be plowing or shoveling till 2" of snow is down. 

The owner looked over the contract and the prices and signed the contract .Now i don't salt,sand anything ,i just plow the lot and shovel the walks like i said. I thought since he was a new customer i was cutting him a good deal. I charge $145 per hour, per truck and i was including shoveling in that price. I thought that was an awesome deal! (stupid on my part). 

We had 2" on Sat.Jan. 21st , i gave the guy the bill and he had a check to me the next Monday Jan.23rd . Now yesterday (Feburary 11th) he calls me hollering that the bill was way to high, it was about $500 with tax and time . He said a guy he had (probably 10 years ago) charged $275 1"-6" , $350 6"-12" , over 12 it was $100 per hour and if a machine had to be brought that would be extra. 

The total sidewalk length is approx. - 100ft.

The width of the sidewalk varies from 4' to 6'

The job is 10 mins. from the shop

The snow can be piled at each end of the lot.

There are 2 entrances to the lot from the back and the front.

I'm only using 1 truck with an 8.5' blade and a 8' back plow.

There are 7 islands ,approx. 20ft long by 5ft wide.

The lot has approx. 200 parking spaces. I didnt measure it so i have no idea how many sq.ft.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

some more info i hope this helps alittle more


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogplow Dodge;1446387 said:


> It would be really nice *if you would use the enter key on your keyboard*, as my 40+ year old eyes have a difficult time deciphering your block of letters, and I know I'm not alone with this..
> 
> Thanks !
> 
> ...


Sorry I had to vent . I had to type it out fast before i forgot .


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

Why would you charge one hourly rate for plowing and shoveling? Does that mean you are getting 145.00 per hour when you are not plowing only shoveling. Why not charge one plowing rate and one hourly shoveling rate?


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

peteo1;1446390 said:


> Tell him ten years ago you could buy gas for $1.50/gallon and minimum wage was less than $6. It's called inflation. It happens. How about walking onto his store and throw a fit over whatever it is he is charging and tell him ten years ago you could buy for half as much. I honestly don't know what people expect these days. For an entire crew of guys on site clearing snow I think that it depends on how many shovelers you have. You said you only have one truck on site, unless I read it wrong. Is there any equipment on the job like a backhoe or a loader?


Just one truck which i drive and one shoveler is what i usually have.A machine is only brought in on a heavy snowfall.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Italiano67;1446429 said:


> Why would you charge one hourly rate for plowing and shoveling? Does that mean you are getting 145.00 per hour when you are not plowing only shoveling. Why not charge one plowing rate and one hourly shoveling rate?


Good point . I dont shovel unless i plow. The owner said that he wants to take care of any lite accumulation and the salting.Thats something to think about for new jobs or next year though . Thanks


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

$145per hr seems fair to me for a laborer and truck. I charge about 10% more for a 24/7 zero tolerance commercial lot. Like Peto1 said 10 years ago I was getting $65 an hr for a backhoe and I was on the high side in my area. Maybe the last guy went under because he didn't know the true value of his services. I know in NJ as well in MA overhead is higher than in other regions just from reading all the different posts from everyone. Never apologize for you're pricing. Although be prepared for a one and done season with this guy.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

siteworkplus;1446443 said:


> $145per hr seems fair to me for a laborer and truck. I charge about 10% more for a 24/7 zero tolerance commercial lot. Like Peto1 said 10 years ago I was getting $65 an hr for a backhoe and I was on the high side in my area. Maybe the last guy went under because he didn't know the true value of his services. I know in NJ as well in MA overhead is higher than in other regions just from reading all the different posts from everyone. Never apologize for you're pricing. Although be prepared for a one and done season with this guy.


 Yes i think he will go away after this season .

I understand his point that he doesnt want to have a $2000 bill if we get a heavy snow but i dont know what he wants me to do .

My insurances alone are high.


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

grassman222;1446449 said:


> Yes i think he will go away after this season .
> 
> I understand his point that he doesnt want to have a $2000 bill if we get a heavy snow but i dont know what he wants me to do .
> 
> My insurances alone are high.


AMEN to that brother

We're not doing this type of thankless work because we need the practice.


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## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

I feel that hes getting a GREAT deal. 100ft walks, a 200 parking spot lot is sorta big, I do a lot that has MAYBE 30 spots for $80 per push (every 2-3", depeneds what they want that storm, they call for anything less than 3 but greater than 2) and sidewalks at it for free (It gives my little brother something to do, and he offered to do it free)

So that storm would have been at least $533, at my current pricing (i just multiplied the rate for this one to that many spots, I wouldnt do it that way for real) But thats doing the walks for free.

He got a fair deal.


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## Bison (Dec 20, 2010)

Anytime a customer starts quoting "past prices" you need to ask him Why did you call me? and Where is he these days? 
If the customer complains about his quality/ workmanship/tardyness/cornercutting or any other reason he got rid of him you then explain the old contractor was priced to low and had to cut corners on quality/ maintainance of equiptment/ whatever .
If the customer says the contractor is no longer plowing or dropped him , explain it's probably because he was priced way to low and couldn't make any money to pay his bills.
Your price is your price , don't second guess yourself.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

How does it take you 1-2 hrs to do 100ft of sidewalk?


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

grassman222;1446424 said:


> The total sidewalk length is approx. - 100ft.
> 
> The width of the sidewalk varies from 4' to 6'
> 
> ...


I just did a little strip mall lot, similar in design, but smaller than yours and with tax was just under $400 Total time I was there was 1 hour of plow time, while 1 laborer shoveled. Again, I was gone in 55 minutes or so, but I still got $365 plus tax. No huff, no puff and no complaints.

I did have to go back the following day to salt, as the owner of the building couldn't get a hold of his "handyman" who was supposed to take care of it, which he never did, so I made a few extra $$ tossing calcium chloride down for them.

I still say that your price was fair, and not excessive. You have to remember, and your dopey customer should realize that $500 to make a commercial lot safe for customers is actually a great deal, considering one slip and fall by some old lady going into the building, including one broken hip, and a couple dozen weeks of rehab, is much more expensive in front of a judge..


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

WIPensFan;1446712 said:


> How does it take you 1-2 hrs to do 100ft of sidewalk?


That's what I was going to say.That's like 15 minutes.

You have a Google Earth of this place?


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

Are you taxing plowing ??


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

MatthewG;1446852 said:


> Are you taxing plowing ??


Each State is different on this.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Think you should broke it down So much for Lot on hr rate and flat rate on the walks 
I'm not from your area so dont know ur hourly rates but WOW
To me doesnt sound like a deal you gave When you was on the shovel you was making 145 per hr thats just wrong


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## agurdo17 (Sep 15, 2011)

if it took me 3 hours i would have charged 570 thats with a 9.5 commercial plow and f350


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## bswalks (Dec 9, 2010)

WIPensFan;1446712 said:


> How does it take you 1-2 hrs to do 100ft of sidewalk?


I'm curious too. It doesn't sound like a difficult lot to plow with tons of obstructions either.
He did say shovel around the building too. 
Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like an hour job, plowed & shoveled.
If it took me an hour, Ide charge $250, but hey good for you! Charge as much as you can, 
for as long as you can


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

WIPensFan;1446712 said:


> How does it take you 1-2 hrs to do 100ft of sidewalk?


That's what I was wondering. I though maybe I read it wrong the first time but I guess I didn't. It shouldn't take very long to do 100' of sidewalk.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

grassman222;1446424 said:


> I have a commercial lot that takes me approx. 3 hours to plow in a 2-3 inch storm ,
> 
> The snow can be piled at each end of the lot.
> 
> ...





WIPensFan;1446712 said:


> How does it take you 1-2 hrs to do 100ft of sidewalk?


Thats got me scratching my head also....but what about the above post WiPensFan?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

snocrete;1447200 said:


> Thats got me scratching my head also....but what about the above post WiPensFan?


Snocrete, are you wondering if it should take 3 hrs to plow this lot? If so, I'm not sure. I would like to see the place, before judging anymore.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

WIPensFan;1447202 said:


> Snocrete, are you wondering if it should take 3 hrs to plow this lot? If so, I'm not sure. I would like to see the place, before judging anymore.


I think the OP is over his head or this only Commercial account he has to waste time at before starting on his driveways
If all I had was 1 truck there no way I bid on anything that size 
What happens he got 12'' + he be there all day

Funny part he knows the size of the islands and how many parking spots but dont know sq ft of the lot


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

MatthewG;1446852 said:


> Are you taxing plowing ??


i live in NJ everything is taxed.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Antlerart06;1447250 said:


> I think the OP is over his head or this only Commercial account he has to waste time at before starting on his driveways
> If all I had was 1 truck there no way I bid on anything that size
> What happens he got 12'' + he be there all day
> 
> Funny part he knows the size of the islands and how many parking spots but dont know sq ft of the lot


approximate parking spaces . I didnt sit there and count them. And approximate sizes of the islands.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

http://www.plowsite.com/picture.php?pictureid=6920&albumid=1198&dl=1329138850&thumb=1 cancel that let me get you a better picture.


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## bswalks (Dec 9, 2010)

grassman222;1447315 said:


> http://www.plowsite.com/picture.php?pictureid=6920&albumid=1198&dl=1329138850&thumb=1 cancel that let me get you a better picture.


From the picture, it's not as big as I thought, but it is broken up into several areas. Not just one big lot.
With that said, I still don't see 3-4 hours plowing & more time on walks. Maybe around 2 hours though, tops.
Every new property takes a little time to learn the fastest way to service it.

So back to your original post. Your price seems somewhat high, but not too bad. With the lack of snow we've had in
the north east, you've got to make as much possible to salvage the season. If it were a long time client *****ing, Ide be 
concerned, but this guy nope, he's gone


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

try this picture


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

IMO, If that's the lot, you didn't charge enough.

Nuff said....


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

MatthewG;1446852 said:


> Are you taxing plowing ??


You guys are lucky......

https://revenue-pa.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/459/~/is-snow-removal-subject-to-sales-tax?

We're not..

http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/su_1.shtml


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## B-2 Lawncare (Feb 11, 2012)

H


Dogplow Dodge;1447394 said:


> IMO, If that's the lot, you didn't charge enough.
> 
> Nuff said....


I agree, I can only see one spot where you have marked to put the snow. Is there more or are you trying to all the snow in one spot?


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

Dogplow Dodge;1447411 said:


> You guys are lucky......
> 
> https://revenue-pa.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/459/~/is-snow-removal-subject-to-sales-tax?
> 
> ...


Good lIttle link, thank you


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

B-2 Lawncare;1447429 said:


> H
> 
> I agree, I can only see one spot where you have marked to put the snow. Is there more or are you trying to all the snow in one spot?


the owner would like it in the area i marked . He said if i absolutly had to i could put some over in the side lot to the left..


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Dogplow Dodge;1447394 said:


> IMO, If that's the lot, you didn't charge enough.
> 
> Nuff said....


Yup thats the lot .


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

If that was the only spot he wants you to put the snow ,I won't even plow the place,Your just wasting time there. As for the sidewalk still don't see more then 15 minutes.


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

What are you going to do if you get a real storm, 10"+? Without a pusher or bucket you're screwed. I hope at least they're letting you windrow to the edges. Tough lot without a "V" or a box of some kind IMO.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

grassman222;1447551 said:


> Yup thats the lot .


No way would I do that lot @ the price you gave him.... No way.....

Too much time for what you charged him. I realize that you're needing the job, but working for free isn't the way to go. I'd rather not plow at all then to do that lot for under $500


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## B-2 Lawncare (Feb 11, 2012)

N


grassman222;1447544 said:


> the owner would like it in the area i marked . He said if i absolutly had to i could put some over in the side lot to the left..


I can see why it takes three hours. I see a lot of grass where you could put snow, which would help speed things up. What time does he want this done by? Just some food for thought have you ever looked at a tractor for lots like this? Big lots like this one that's what we do.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

grassman222;1447372 said:


> try this picture


I know why you're taking so long on the lot now, a lot of F'in around trying to get all the snow to one corner. The sidewalks shouldn't take you that long, get a single stage blower and quit shoveling. You need to talk with the owner and figure out some other snow stacking areas, just tell them it won't take you so long and it will be cheaper. You only really need 2 more spots.

Ideally you do that lot with a skidsteer.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

B-2 Lawncare;1447592 said:


> N
> 
> I can see why it takes three hours. I see a lot of grass where you could put snow, which would help speed things up. What time does he want this done by? Just some food for thought have you ever looked at a tractor for lots like this? Big lots like this one that's what we do.


How big of a tractor you think would be good ? Or would a skid steer be better?


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

WIPensFan;1447668 said:


> I know why you're taking so long on the lot now, a lot of F'in around trying to get all the snow to one corner. The sidewalks shouldn't take you that long, get a single stage blower and quit shoveling. You need to talk with the owner and figure out some other snow stacking areas, just tell them it won't take you so long and it will be cheaper. You only really need 2 more spots.
> 
> Ideally you do that lot with a skidsteer.


I just bought a single stage . going to have that on the truck from now on. I am going to ask about the stack of the snow . That is i guess why it takes so long because i have to push everything out into rows so i can push it to the end . ThanksThumbs Up


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

I thought about some type of broom for the lite snows . I dont know though.


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## B-2 Lawncare (Feb 11, 2012)

grassman222;1447713 said:


> How big of a tractor you think would be good ? Or would a skid steer be better?


The first thing is - can you work a tractor or skid steer all year? They both would be a rather big investment, we went with a tractor because we can brush hog, spray, spread sand, clean corrals, and do dirt work. 
If a guy is good at running equipment you could get by with a 40 HP, the big issue is not having enough weight. We have wheel weights and use the weight of the sand in the spreader to over come the weight issue. 
I am sure there are guys who are going to jump all over this post, saying you need a bigger tractor, but can you use a bigger tractor all year - most guys running the bigger stuff have other work for it.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

B-2 Lawncare;1447841 said:


> The first thing is - can you work a tractor or skid steer all year? They both would be a rather big investment, we went with a tractor because we can brush hog, spray, spread sand, clean corrals, and do dirt work.
> If a guy is good at running equipment you could get by with a 40 HP, the big issue is not having enough weight. We have wheel weights and use the weight of the sand in the spreader to over come the weight issue.
> I am sure there are guys who are going to jump all over this post, saying you need a bigger tractor, but can you use a bigger tractor all year - most guys running the bigger stuff have other work for it.


Ive been fighting myself on this subject for years . i think they both have there advantages and dis advanteges, but i might end up with a skid steer. im not sure alot of money either way


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## cold_and_tired (Dec 18, 2008)

I have a lot that is very similar in size to that one. My snow has to go in one spot (no multiple piles) and my approximate charge for a 2-3" snow would be about $600. I did the lot the other day that had 8-10" on it and charged $900.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

I invest in a different plow on front of the truck and maybe a tractor Skidsteer is nice but you will have haul it around and thats a pain
I see why it takes you that long broke up lot and a small plow 

Sorry if I made you mad on something I said 
Good luck on your season


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Antlerart06;1448211 said:


> I invest in a different plow on front of the truck and maybe a tractor Skidsteer is nice but you will have haul it around and thats a pain
> I see why it takes you that long broke up lot and a small plow
> 
> Sorry if I made you mad on something I said
> Good luck on your season


not mad here. I appreciate everyones opinions .

I have an 8.5' plow on the front of the truck.

I am going today to talk to the owner of the property so we shall see what he says. i may or may not have the job by the end of the day ..


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

cold_and_tired;1448160 said:


> I have a lot that is very similar in size to that one. My snow has to go in one spot (no multiple piles) and my approximate charge for a 2-3" snow would be about $600. I did the lot the other day that had 8-10" on it and charged $900.


how do you actually charge ? is by the inch , by the hour , or other?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

That lot is very easy to plow if you can just push the snow to the boundaries. Maybe explain to him it would cheaper to do that then push it all to one location. It is NJ,it will melt in a few days anyway.


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## cold_and_tired (Dec 18, 2008)

grassman222;1448390 said:


> how do you actually charge ? is by the inch , by the hour , or other?


I charge by the hour on this one. It's one of the last few holdouts that has yet to switch to per push or seasonal.

Putting the snow in one spot can really add up the time but this customer likes the cleaner looks of the finished product.


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

cold_and_tired;1448638 said:


> I charge by the hour on this one. It's one of the last few holdouts that has yet to switch to per push or seasonal.
> 
> Putting the snow in one spot can really add up the time but this customer likes the cleaner looks of the finished product.


Do you not like by the hour jobs? if so, why?


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## Eronningen (Dec 20, 2008)

siteworkplus;1448836 said:


> Do you not like by the hour jobs? if so, why?


No, avoid them at all costs. I think hourly is only good for the super stores with multiple pieces of equipment, constant service throughout storm, snow pile relocation the next night. On small and medium commercial charges by the hour is selling yourself and equipment short I think


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

Eronningen;1448843 said:


> No, avoid them at all costs. I think hourly is only good for the super stores with multiple pieces of equipment, constant service throughout storm, snow pile relocation the next night. On small and medium commercial charges by the hour is selling yourself and equipment short I think


OK, I agree with that. A site that requires around the clock attention is extremely hard to estimate costs accurately IMO, given the complexity and variations of each event. A large zero tolerance site that I handle by the hour with a minimum of 4 pieces of equipment and 6 to 12 laborers per event would have lost me over 70k last year had I seasonally bid it by a 5yr avg. I'm not really willing to put that kind of bank away just to protect against a heavy year. I realize a year like this year i would be smiling fat,law of avgs and all, but back to back years like last year would have killed me. A good mix of seasonals,by the inch/per push, and by the hour, is the best way to hedge your bets.


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## cold_and_tired (Dec 18, 2008)

siteworkplus;1448836 said:


> Do you not like by the hour jobs? if so, why?


It's a combination of things. First off, if you and I are bidding a commercial lot of say 300,000 sf and we both bid by the hour and you turn in a price for a truck at $70/hr and I turn in a price for my loader and pusher at $200/hr, which price do you think the customer will pick? They will pick you and your truck for $70 an hour because they think it's lower when in fact it may be substantially higher when the storm is over.

I have had to do a lot of hard selling on my larger equipment because people see a higher per hour price and get scared.

Secondly, I like seasonals and per push because I give them one price and use whatever equipment I want and also because my profit margins are much higher and my overhead is much lower.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

cold_and_tired;1449073 said:


> It's a combination of things. First off, if you and I are bidding a commercial lot of say 300,000 sf and we both bid by the hour and you turn in a price for a truck at $70/hr and I turn in a price for my loader and pusher at $200/hr, which price do you think the customer will pick? They will pick you and your truck for $70 an hour because they think it's lower when in fact it may be substantially higher when the storm is over.
> 
> I have had to do a lot of hard selling on my larger equipment because people see a higher per hour price and get scared.
> 
> Secondly, I like seasonals and per push because I give them one price and use whatever equipment I want and also because my profit margins are much higher and my overhead is much lower.


And that's why I like seasonal,no matter what you quote per hr people think your going to milk it even though your using bigger equipment and getting done faster.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

grandview;1449194 said:


> And that's why I like seasonal,no matter what you quote per hr people think your going to milk it even though your using bigger equipment and getting done faster.


You may have said earlier in the thread but , What would you charge seasonally for the lot i showed? . I guess thats hard to figure really. How would you figure it out ? Would you calculate by the last season or by the last 3 seasons? Im asking all these questions so i know for the future , and i know exactly what im doing . (learning) . Thanks


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## creekwoodlawn (Dec 9, 2011)

First thing I would do is get rid of the straight plow or get box ends or wings on it. Have never ran a truck with just a straight plow, all you do is chase snow. Secondly get some more areas to push it too, the owners idea of putting it in one area is just stupid and shows he is a control freak, cause if you had a heavy snow it would be impossible without some sort of wheel loader to pile it 20' high. Thirdly get a dual stage snow blower, a good single stage can only move about 6" of powder snow effectively but not as fast as a dual stage, ya, your going to spend about 1200 for a decent one, but in this industry in order to be competitive on the big lots you have to spend money to make money. Snow removal is about getting in and out quickly and done correctly, and getting to the next account. As far as what you charged you are in the ballpark for a truck and sidewalk labor, bad thing is a better outfitted company could come in and do the lot in less time and charge less. The ideal truck is a diesel f-350 with extra springs on the front equipped with a 9'6" boss power-v w/ wings, you can move a lot of snow with that equipment. You have to bid the jobs you have the equipment for, and know when your not capable of doing some jobs. Have never done seasonal bids, always per push broken down in 2" increments.


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

Pretty good for your first post.

Where you been?


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## creekwoodlawn (Dec 9, 2011)

Ohh, believe it or not this is my first year on this site, have basically self taught myself throughout the years and learned the best way to make money in the shortest time. Spend a lot of time researching different equipment to see what would work best in our area. I have always enjoyed snow removal and always enjoy the feeling of driving through town after a storm to see my lots are clear and ice free.


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

I hear ya

I keep checking my lots even though it hasn't snowed here in a month

.Petty much just checking to see if my equipment is still there and not in some container being shipped overseas


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

I am noticing in my area that medium size payloaders are becoming the the weapon of choice for alot of contractors. For that lot you are doing a payloader with a pusher could have that wrapped up in a hour or an hour and a half. Its hard to compete with pickups on bigger jobs because the machines are so much quicker. I see loaders even doing smaller jobs around here now. I cant argue with using them as long as they are charging the right machine rate. That is the part that always gets screwed up. Once the machine gets bought then the rate keeps coming down to get more work.


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

grassman222;1449250 said:


> You may have said earlier in the thread but , What would you charge seasonally for the lot i showed? . I guess thats hard to figure really. How would you figure it out ? Would you calculate by the last season or by the last 3 seasons? Im asking all these questions so i know for the future , and i know exactly what im doing . (learning) . Thanks


Thats the hardest part of Quoting on seasonals IMO, because you have so many variables.

Especially if it's a new lot and you're fairly new to the game.

You need to research avg snow totals
avg inches per storm
type equipment being used and its productivity
backup plans in the event of breakdowns
worst case scenarios(see last year in N east)
specific job/lot requirements/restrictions
etc
You get my point
Per push initially might be the safest bet until you get a good feel for the amount of effort involved

H*ll, we have'nt been tested yet this year


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

If I could push the snow anywhere ,maybe around 9k + tax for the season,salt extra. Very easy lot.


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## JCSolutions (Nov 24, 2011)

Rough math figuring 9' stalls and a conservative 20' drivelanes I'm figuring the lot to be aprox. 8000 square yards. I have a lot thats 13,000sys and can have it cleared with 1 truck with a 8' boss with wings in about 4-5hrs. It also has about 400' of walk but most of the walks are covered so only the outer 4' usually need cleared. The walks take about 1 to 1.5 hrs. I charge $95 per hour for the truck and $45 hr to shovel. My bill would be $545. Of course this doesnt include salt or walk materials.
In my opinion I think your rate is fine, it's just seams to be taking you way to long to complete. 
I think there is a fine line on hourly accounts about getting it done to fast and not making and money or being slower, making more money but not having a happy customer when they get the bill. 

On the particular job I noted above I usually don;t plow it with just my truck. I start by getting the walk and windrowing the snow away from walks and then leave to another job and let one of my guys finish with a skid steer and box. I'll return to tidy up and apply salt. The time usually nets the same but I am now completing two or three jobs instead of just one. 
My 2 cents, which is all I have at this point this winter, havent even hooked up the plow yet.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Update: So i talked to the owner yesterday and as soon as he saw me had an addittude.

I said listen i feel that i am in the ballpark with a few others around the neighborhood. I had 5 different quotes in my hand from 5 different companies from the area and i started reading them off to him . He cut me off and said " I don't want to argue with you i just think the price is to high". I said no i don't want to argue either i just wanted to show you. 

His story was this: He said that he is a president of a condo association . He said that it had 4 times the square footage of the lot im doing. The company that is doing this condo association only charged him $800 for the 2-3 inch snow back in January. 

Now that being said my opinion is he is not comparing apples to apples. the guy that was doing the condos probably had 20 guys working and got it done in a short amount of time , probably had machines everywhere.


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## siteworkplus (Nov 7, 2011)

4x the area and they pushed all the snow to one corner for $800?

See if he will sell any of that stuff he's smoking

you're not going to win with this guy

move on and don't burn the bridge, he may come down off his buzz at some point


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

siteworkplus;1450308 said:


> you're not going to win with this guy
> 
> move on and don't burn the bridge,


AMEN, Brother !

At that point when he started lecturing you, I would have said....

_*Well, then I guess you don't need my services, as I'm sure your other contractor can fulfill your needs. 
Call me if you change your mind, as I'm more than happy to complete the work at the price I quoted you.... have a nice day ! *_

Turned and walked away.

I don't need headaches like that, and neither do you. Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## cold_and_tired (Dec 18, 2008)

Like others have said, don't waste your time with this guy. Even if he agrees to the price, he will never be happy.

One of my recent customers that found me after a 16" storm just before Christmas had nobody to plow his lot and asked if I could do it. Since it was next door to one of my larger accounts, I said sure.

I cleared the lot the first time for $500 and he was happy. This last storm was officially 22" but we had some major drifts. We ended up clearing the lot three times and his total bill was $614. He sent me a letter with the check stating that my price is too high and he would find someone else.

I just told him good luck and that my services would always be available for my quoted price.

You can't win them all.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

JCSolutions;1450122 said:


> Rough math figuring 9' stalls and a conservative 20' drivelanes I'm figuring the lot to be aprox. 8000 square yards. I have a lot thats 13,000sys and can have it cleared with 1 truck with a 8' boss with wings in about 4-5hrs. It also has about 400' of walk but most of the walks are covered so only the outer 4' usually need cleared. The walks take about 1 to 1.5 hrs. I charge $95 per hour for the truck and $45 hr to shovel. My bill would be $545. Of course this doesnt include salt or walk materials.
> In my opinion I think your rate is fine, it's just seams to be taking you way to long to complete.
> I think there is a fine line on hourly accounts about getting it done to fast and not making and money or being slower, making more money but not having a happy customer when they get the bill.
> 
> ...


Are we looking at the same lot? I see less then 1.5 hours with a truck to plow it.


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## creekwoodlawn (Dec 9, 2011)

I think what is throwing everybody off on the charge is the fact that this guy wants it all piled up in the one spot. That is very time consuming, not to mention the additional shoveling on the back side of the building due to the sewer cleanouts and water shutoffs which (imo) should be flush with the pavement anyway and shouldn't present a problem. So,by the time you move all the snow, shovel the extra space in the back and all the walks, i could easily see this lot being a $500 lot. 
His cost comparison to the HOA isn't legit, completely different variables. Is he asking you to reduce your bill or just being a difficult know it all? If he is not asking, deal with him for the rest of the season and wash your hands of him. If he is asking, politely decline and let him know the majority of the reason for the cost is having to pile it up in one area. Educate him on basic math that it will take a shorter time to not to have to do that with the end result being a lesser charge..


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## 496 BB (Feb 11, 2010)

Id tell him you respectfully decline to work for him due to the hostile environment/relationship. People like this turn out to be a royal pain in the ass and you will be the one screwed in the long run either by him not paying, slander, or some false accusations about something. These people are clueless as to how things operate. They care only about money and not quality. Leave a business card and tell him you look forward to speaking to him again after the next storm. AND the price will increase since you will be adding him this late in the season. 

People never cease to amaze me with their tightness anymore. The desirability of quality is a thing of the past these days.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

496 BB;1450766 said:


> Id tell him you respectfully decline to work for him due to the hostile environment/relationship. People like this turn out to be a royal pain in the ass and you will be the one screwed in the long run either by him not paying, slander, or some false accusations about something. These people are clueless as to how things operate. They care only about money and not quality. Leave a business card and tell him you look forward to speaking to him again after the next storm. AND the price will increase since you will be adding him this late in the season.
> 
> People never cease to amaze me with their tightness anymore. The desirability of quality is a thing of the past these days.


I agree! Some people i just cant figure out.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

I cant wait to see what he says on the next snow . If we get any more. Or even when i go to start with the mowing season . :realmad:


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## Gr8WhiteNorth (Sep 27, 2007)

I had a similar issue with a new customer. We cleared his lot all winter with no issues, but then ran out of room to stockpile in February. He authorized us to haul away at our normal rates so we did. He called outraged when he got his $600 bill for hauling. 

After a long debate I offered to cut his bill by $200 to help him afford it since that year was such an unusually high snow volume and I didn't want to lose a customer or worse, not get paid anything. 

Well wouldn't you know it, we didn't get the job this year after bending over backwards. 

The icing on the cake was hearing from the soccer league I play for that he bad mouthed us out of a job. Another board member told me he talked the league out of hiring us to plow out the roads around the fields because of the above said story. He said if we could afford to cut our bill by that much we must be ripping everyone off to begin with. "his" guy was much more reasonable.

I guess I will discontinue the $3000 per year worth of free services I donate to the league every year.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Gr8WhiteNorth;1452230 said:


> I had a similar issue with a new customer. We cleared his lot all winter with no issues, but then ran out of room to stockpile in February. He authorized us to haul away at our normal rates so we did. He called outraged when he got his $600 bill for hauling.
> 
> After a long debate I offered to cut his bill by $200 to help him afford it since that year was such an unusually high snow volume and I didn't want to lose a customer or worse, not get paid anything.
> 
> ...


I hear ya ! I hope the owner of the property im doing isnt going to be like this all year.(probably will)

I have already decided that since hes keeping me for now i will continue to work for him .

When the contract is up I will not be giving him another one.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

Write the contract different. Leaving hourly out, push price, or seasonal. There is always going to be a guy who is cheaper, just remind the customer why you are a little more.


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## grassman222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Flawless440;1452357 said:


> Write the contract different. Leaving hourly out, push price, or seasonal. There is always going to be a guy who is cheaper, just remind the customer why you are a little more.


if that was your lot what would you charge per push?

I think i would have an even harder time trying to figure out a seasonal price .

Im horrible at pricing if you havent noticed


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