# Product Recomendations for Concrete Sidewalks?



## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

I'm new here, but have been reading the threads for a few weeks. Finally broke down and signed up so I could just ask what I'm looking for.

We own and operate several properties on our own, multifamily, commercial, etc. We don't hire anything out, from painting to mowing to snow removal, and we don't hire out our services to others. 100% self-perform.

Recently, we've been having more and more problems with concrete sidewalks scaling and flaking after hand-salting. We're not doing anything different than we have for decades, but 2 seasons ago we damaged about 500 LF of walk. We'd been using a variety of products labeled as sidewalk salt and paying $4-6 bag for pallet prices.

Last season we went to straight Peladow in an effort to stop any new damage. We had less new damage, but still probably lost another 150 LF of walk.

Obviously just about anything is cheaper than replacing walks, so price isn't the primary concern. We've also got to get walks 100% clean though, as we have some elderly and can't afford a trip and fall.

*If you were to pick a product solely based on its effects on concrete what would you use?*


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Salt did not cause your problems.........................Whats causeing your problems is the Freeze/Thaw cycle......Now, Poorly Mixed, and Finished concrete will speed up the process of the concrete Failing......How Old are these sections of walk that are failing???...Do you have a section that is failing proceeded by a section thats in good shape???........


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

I should have specified- this was on concrete from 3-15 years old. Seemed to be worst in areas that got the most sun. I trust the mix and the finishing.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

JohnRoscoe;1078558 said:


> I'm new here, but have been reading the threads for a few weeks. Finally broke down and signed up so I could just ask what I'm looking for.
> 
> We own and operate several properties on our own, multifamily, commercial, etc. We don't hire anything out, from painting to mowing to snow removal, and we don't hire out our services to others. 100% self-perform.
> 
> ...


Interesting.....Any of you Experts Explain this....Before you do..The Portland cement ass. published an article about Salt vs. Peladow...Which one was MORE aggressive towards concrete??????


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

JohnRoscoe;1078571 said:


> I should have specified- this was on concrete from 3-15 years old. Seemed to be worst in areas that got the most sun. I trust the mix and the finishing.


If you trust the mix and finishing.....Why do you trust the mix and Finish...Did you do it...Im sticking to the freeze/Thaw...


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## bighornjd (Oct 23, 2009)

Remember boys and girls, salt doesn't eat concrete. Unless of course it's REALLY hungry.:laughing:


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

So all that aside... any recommendations on the most concrete-friendly ice-melter?


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## kpmsnow (Sep 18, 2009)

Ice Ban. It works great.


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## firelwn82 (Feb 14, 2006)

Sorry to say but any kind of salt you put on concrete is going to eat it up. Especially concrete that is new and has not cured properly before winter hit. I'm not a concrete expert in anyway but there are 3 guarantees to it.... It will never blow away, it will never be stolen and it's going to crack..... The thing with concrete the older it is the harder it gets. Concrete is always curing from the second it's made just keeps getting harder and harder until it crumbles. The salt is adding to your cracking and crumbling but not totally to blame. It's just time to face the facts and start budgeting to replace your walkways.. 15 years is a long time to get out of any concrete that is weather in the elements 365 a year....


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## kpmsnow (Sep 18, 2009)

We have customers that buy Ice Ban from us that they use exclusively on "fresh" concrete, and they haven't ever had a problem. I agree concrete is probably going to crack eventually but doing what we can to prolong the enivediable is the name of the game. The question was what do we recommend and I recommend ICE BAN


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## firelwn82 (Feb 14, 2006)

Here in Michigan I have personally never heard of ice ban but yes I agree were trying to prolong the inevitable to the customer.


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## kpmsnow (Sep 18, 2009)

firelwn82;1079300 said:


> Here in Michigan I have personally never heard of ice ban but yes I agree were trying to prolong the inevitable to the customer.


I know AJP has a distributor in michigan now. Where in michigan are you located?


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## firelwn82 (Feb 14, 2006)

kpmsnow;1079309 said:


> I know AJP has a distributor in michigan now. Where in michigan are you located?


48348. Pine Knob or also known as DTE Energy now


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

firelwn82;1079267 said:


> Sorry to say but any kind of salt you put on concrete is going to eat it up. Especially concrete that is new and has not cured properly before winter hit. I'm not a concrete expert in anyway but there are 3 guarantees to it.... It will never blow away, it will never be stolen and it's going to crack..... The thing with concrete the older it is the harder it gets. Concrete is always curing from the second it's made just keeps getting harder and harder until it crumbles. The salt is adding to your cracking and crumbling but not totally to blame. It's just time to face the facts and start budgeting to replace your walkways.. 15 years is a long time to get out of any concrete that is weather in the elements 365 a year....


Some of your points are ok......A normal mix...Lets say a 4000psi...Will hit its strength within 90 days.....If the concrete is Properly Mixed and Finished it will last a Long time....There are a couple of reasons you see the top of Concrete Spall or peel off...If the Mix is Low on air..it will spall...If the Slab is over Finished..What i mean by this...When you see a guy finishing and he is spraying water all over the top to make it trowl easyer..That will speed along the Top Poping...

Salt is Not the main culprit of Concrete failing...Man and Mother nature are...Poor Mix and or Finish and Freeze/Thaw....

If you want to protect a Fresh Slab..You should use some sort of Cure and seal sealer when the walk and or Driveway are done...Alot of contractors skip this.....When they are paving a road you will see them spray a white looking stuff at the end of the paving....Thats cure and seal....

To many crummy redi-mix companys taking short cuts and too many Hacks out there doing concrete giving the good ones a Bad Name...Kinda Like the Snow Plowing Business.....


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## firelwn82 (Feb 14, 2006)

Thanks for the wise answers Matson. Good game...... :laughing: Seriously though thanks for the concrete education.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Although I agree with most of Matson's points, I think it may be a little late to fix the concrete walks. If older, cured concrete walks can't handle moderate doses of CC or rock salt, I'd suggest protecting them to control the losses.

John, I wouldn't suggest this recommendation to most, but it seems that your crew has total control of the maintenance of the grounds, so here's my suggestion. Simply seal the walks with a solvent-based siloxane sealer in the next few weeks to create a surface that isn't nearly as porous and absorbant. The surface just needs to be fairly clean. The siloxane is very thin in nature, so as to penetrate deep, and can be sprayed very easily. The cost is high for a concrete sealer, but it's service life, as well as the level it protects at, is well worth every penny. For the cost of replacing maybe 20-30' of walk, you could easily protect a few thousand feet.

The other "bonus" to this is that snow clears off of the surface far easier, as it doesn't freeze down like over tyical, un-sealed concrete. This should equate to faster, cleaner snow removal as well as far less de-icer's needed.

When you get your raise or bonus for suggesting such a great remedy to the situation, let me know. I'll PM you my address so you can send the gifts............. :laughing:


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

jomama- We're on the same page. In fact, we applied about $1500 of a high-quality Euclid sealer this summer as a test. Unfortunately, we only covered about 1/4 of the site. If it helps significantly, we might bite the bullet and do the other 3/4 of the site next year. My understanding though is that the real benefit comes from re-applying annually, so it's an expensive proposition.

(I'm along way from raise/bonus, more concerned about the other side- what happens if I can't figure out how to keep from destroying the concrete walks...)


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

JohnRoscoe;1081000 said:


> jomama- We're on the same page. In fact, we applied about $1500 of a high-quality Euclid sealer this summer as a test. Unfortunately, we only covered about 1/4 of the site. If it helps significantly, we might bite the bullet and do the other 3/4 of the site next year. My understanding though is that the real benefit comes from re-applying annually, so it's an expensive proposition.
> 
> (I'm along way from raise/bonus, more concerned about the other side- what happens if I can't figure out how to keep from destroying the concrete walks...)


Euclid is a fine brand, but I'd be curious what the name of the actual product was. If was indeed solvent-based siloxane, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. If it's an older style solvent or water-based topical sealer, I don't think you'll see ideal results.


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## JohnRoscoe (Sep 27, 2010)

Not sure about the siloxane, but it was their Super Diamond Clear AC, which I understand to be one of their best products.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

JohnRoscoe;1081087 said:


> Not sure about the siloxane, but it was their Super Diamond Clear AC, which I understand to be one of their best products.


Super Diamond Clear is a Fine Brand....But you are paying for a Name...Take Jomama's advice..He *SEEMS* to know what hes talking about...:laughing: and i agree with *Most* of his points.....All kidding aside take his advice......


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Matson Snow;1081235 said:


> Super Diamond Clear is a Fine Brand....But you are paying for a Name...Take Jomama's advice..He *SEEMS* to know what hes talking about...:laughing: and i agree with *Most* of his points.....All kidding aside take his advice......


Oh, I see how it is, anything for post count.......... 

Don't drink too much this w/e pal. :waving:


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

JohnRoscoe;1081087 said:


> Not sure about the siloxane, but it was their Super Diamond Clear AC, which I understand to be one of their best products.


Sorry John, but that's not the right stuff ideally IMO. The Diamond is fine, but no where near the resistence and longevity of teh siloxane. I checked, and Euco does make a solvent based siloxane. I've never used it, bt Euco certainly is a solid company. The siloxane will likely be a little more expensive than the Diamond, but the application is far easier. The end result would also be far superior IMO.


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## KCD Snow Pro (Aug 30, 2009)

*Another Concrete Culprit*

Hello, all. Been watching this for a bit and unfortunately have to be brief. Magnesium chloride has been scientifically proven in more than one study to cause molecular reformulation of dolomitic limestone (Midwest) concrete ions because of its hexhydrate chemistry.

This typically forms one of two new undesirable compounds within concrete. One of the compounds formed is called brucite and I can't remember off hand what the other one is called. Anyway, brucite shows up in brittle outer rims on the aggregate and it weakens the bond in the 'crete

Not a chemistry nut, just managed to come across some good info a while back and thought I'd share it. So here's another way to eventually screw up concrete along with all of the other reasons listed below. Oh yeah, almost forgot, calcium chloride does it also just not as badly and in the study it actually determined that the least damaging of the three in this regard was good ole salt.

Just food for thought I guess.  So much for brief...


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