# level kit, timbrens or both?



## jerseydrew (Mar 6, 2010)

just got my plow mounted today and i need just a little more clearance. it sags down just a hair too much to clear the angle at the bottom of the driveway. i know i didn't have any ballast in the bed but not sure how that helps. what would you guys suggest?


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## buddymanzpop (Nov 14, 2009)

Crank the torsion bars up a little to raise your front end, if that isn't enough go for the timbrens, I have a GMC 3500 DRW and a Chevy 2500, I crank the torsion bars and put the timbrens in both around November , December and crank them down and pull the timbrens out and put the stock rubber bumpers back in the spring, very easy to do, I only do this because I like the ride and feel of the stock settings.


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## wkahler (Mar 15, 2008)

Install Firestone airbags, you won't regret it!! I had them on my 2001 F-250 and putting them on my new 2010 GMC.


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## jerseydrew (Mar 6, 2010)

i have gmt900 so no torsion bars for me i have independent suspension up front. i think i am going to do both. lift for clearance and timbrens for support.


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## Mr. Horsepower (Feb 21, 2010)

jerseydrew;1060290 said:


> i have gmt900 so no torsion bars for me i have independent suspension up front. i think i am going to do both. lift for clearance and timbrens for support.


What plow did you put on? I just installed the Western HTS on My Tahoe and it seems OK, now snow yet so I cant really tell. I am going to put some ballast in the back for traction


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## Tahoeplower (Nov 20, 2010)

I realize this is an older thread, but thought I'd stick in a little advice for anyone happening across this with the same problem: Try 500 lbs of ballast in the rear BEHIND the axle, closest to the cargo doors as you can. Think of your axles as a sea-saw. Add weight to the front (Plow), it drops it down. Add weight to the rear, and it cantilevers the weight distribution more evenly, bringing your front end back up a bit. Might get you by for the time being if you're crunched for budget, time, what-have-you. Don't know if it will work enough to clear you or not, but it's worth a shot. Not to mention, the added weight of the plow lightens the weight to the rear tires (remember the sea-saw) reducing your traction significantly. I have a '96 Tahoe. Without weight in the rear, she even FELT light in the rear going down the road! So you then lose that much more weight to grip the rear tires, putting most of the strain on the front axle, which have the weakest parts to break. I ended up putting 1200 lbs of concrete pavers in the rear of mine, and it leveled it about PERFECT (granted, tire clearance wasn't an issue, since I have a 6" lift in it). I'll be taking about 1/2 of that out, though, she loses alot of power in hi gear going down the road! But, I'll tell you what- I burried myself in a ditch while plowing a bank from a driveway too far over. Couldn't open the door even, snow was about a foot below my window (keep in mind, that's with a 6" lift, 33" tires). Had to crawl out the window to get out! Choked the chain on the plow to lift it off the snow, back and forth a few times, and it crawled right out! I couldn't believe it! Had to be that extra weight in the back. However, I'm thinking 23 paver blocks, at 50 lbs ea. is a little excessive! Anyways, it's worth a shot, if you are on a tight budget, or like me, the wife keeps nagging that I'm spending too much!


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## Maleko (Sep 20, 2004)

wkahler;1060228 said:


> Install Firestone airbags, you won't regret it!! I had them on my 2001 F-250 and putting them on my new 2010 GMC.


Here, Here, I second that....
have them on my truck for the first time this year. dont know what i ever did without them


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## Mr. Horsepower (Feb 21, 2010)

I've got 350lbs of ballast behind the axle in my 07 GMT900 Tahoe with a Western HTS plow. I am having an issue where a steep downhill driveway meets the road. The bottom of the receiver brackets are scraping pretty hard. I'm going to need to put in the front end leveling kit.


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## jerseydrew (Mar 6, 2010)

i did a level kit and fixed everything. no issues.....


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

How do you secure the pavers? I'd be a little worried about heavy objects inside that could become projectiles, damaging things like seatbacks, windows, my skull.... Actually I'd worry about them in a pickup bed too.


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## Lux Lawn (Jan 5, 2004)

jerseydrew;1174810 said:


> i did a level kit and fixed everything. no issues.....


Sounds good, thats what I did and about 500 pounds of sand bags in the back.


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## Mr. Horsepower (Feb 21, 2010)

What brand and height leveling kits did you guys use?


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## jerseydrew (Mar 6, 2010)

i used a rough country 2 inch on my 1500...


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## Tahoeplower (Nov 20, 2010)

Detroitdan;1174952 said:


> How do you secure the pavers? I'd be a little worried about heavy objects inside that could become projectiles, damaging things like seatbacks, windows, my skull.... Actually I'd worry about them in a pickup bed too.


Actually, I haven't secured them down. Slammed into a few banks, and the top paver on each stack slid forward a little bit, but never projectiled. Each stack is just about level or below the back seat and back window, but it is a real possibility if I were in a front end collision, for one to skip the back seat and nail someone in the head. I'll be taking them out tonight to put the 3rd row seat back in, then only putting 1/2 of them back in. I'll double strap them down behind the seat, with the tie-down rings in the back. Excellent point, thanks for bringing it up. Didn't even think about the possiblilty of one of them flying forward in an accident.


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## Lux Lawn (Jan 5, 2004)

Mr. Horsepower;1175121 said:


> What brand and height leveling kits did you guys use?


Summit Racing Kit.

I think I paid between $200-$300 for it, 2 inch was perfect.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

I sometimes wish I could get more height out my frontend. I have my torsion bars turned up about 1.5 inches and airbags in the back. I have been reading about and considering new keys for about ten years now, but I've talked myself out of it every time. I just dont see how re-indexed keys can get any more out of it than cranking the stock ones. I get that its starting from a different place, and maybe it would be a little better for it at the same height, but where my keys are set now it rides good and isnt too stiff. New keys usually advertise about two inches, well I'm pretty sure 1.5 of those inches is the same 1.5 inch I've already got. Right?
I'd do an actual suspension lift kit, but they are (still) prohibitively expensive for my era IFS trucks, and most all I've seen say they are for 6 lug trucks only. Oh well, be working on the 82 soon, putting in my inexpensive and simple 4 inch suspension lift.


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## Joe D (Oct 2, 2005)

Detroitdan;1178146 said:


> I sometimes wish I could get more height out my frontend. I have my torsion bars turned up about 1.5 inches and airbags in the back. I have been reading about and considering new keys for about ten years now, but I've talked myself out of it every time. I just dont see how re-indexed keys can get any more out of it than cranking the stock ones. I get that its starting from a different place, and maybe it would be a little better for it at the same height, but where my keys are set now it rides good and isnt too stiff. New keys usually advertise about two inches, well I'm pretty sure 1.5 of those inches is the same 1.5 inch I've already got. Right?
> I'd do an actual suspension lift kit, but they are (still) prohibitively expensive for my era IFS trucks, and most all I've seen say they are for 6 lug trucks only. Oh well, be working on the 82 soon, putting in my inexpensive and simple 4 inch suspension lift.


Dan, On out era trucks the new keys do nothing. You can already crank the bars enough so that you can't get the truck to align up on a rack, camber adjustment.
I think GM redesigned the keys on the newer trucks so you couldn't over crank the front causing warranty work for them..


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

thats what I thought, every time I read where it will give me two inches, then I go back and find that it really won't. I'd really like a 3-4 inch lift in the front, but I've had good luck with all my frontend components so far (well except for wheelbearings) so I really don't want to twist it up and wreck the balljoints. If I didn't love my IFS so much I'd probably think about doing the SAS. Maybe if my so-called "weak" IFS ever fails, I'll start looking for a Ford D60. So far I've got 180k on my front axle with a lot of hard use and only thing I've done is replaced CVs once. Really the only reason I would consider changing to SFA would be for lift.


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## NBI Lawn (Oct 15, 2007)

buddymanzpop;1060171 said:


> Crank the torsion bars up a little to raise your front end, if that isn't enough go for the timbrens, I have a GMC 3500 DRW and a Chevy 2500, I crank the torsion bars and put the timbrens in both around November , December and crank them down and pull the timbrens out and put the stock rubber bumpers back in the spring, very easy to do, I only do this because I like the ride and feel of the stock settings.


That is horrible advice! If you "crank" your torsion bars or use a leveling kit the Timbrens will not do a thing. Timbrens dont give you any lift at all, they prevent sag...essentially a big bump stop that sits on the lower control arm. If you raise the truck by leveling or "cranking" the T-bars you dont have the contact with the lower control arm rendering them useless.
Thats my experience anyways. The Timbrens dont do anything on my 99 after I gave the t-bars a couple turns.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Joe D;1178155 said:


> I think GM redesigned the keys on the newer trucks so you couldn't over crank the front causing warranty work for them..


Actually no they didn't on the 01-07 classics. Haven't had one yet that needed keys to level or closely it out depending on the owners wishes. They run out of comfortable travel before they run out of adjustment so buying aftermarket keys for those trucks is a waste of time and money. However by the new body some do not have enough adjustment to get it close but that depends on which keys it's factory equipped with.



NBI Lawn;1178209 said:


> That is horrible advice! If you "crank" your torsion bars or use a leveling kit the Timbrens will not do a thing. Timbrens dont give you any lift at all, they prevent sag...essentially a big bump stop that sits on the lower control arm. If you raise the truck by leveling or "cranking" the T-bars you dont have the contact with the lower control arm rendering them useless.
> Thats my experience anyways. The Timbrens dont do anything on my 99 after I gave the t-bars a couple turns.


This is why you shim the Timbrens down so they become effective sooner when starting at a higher ride height, therefore it's working just as if it was still near stock ride height. Been shimming them on 'adjusted' trucks for years and it works well.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

B&B;1179053 said:


> Actually no they didn't on the 01-07 classics. Haven't had one yet that needed keys to level or closely it out depending on the owners wishes. They run out of comfortable travel before they run out of adjustment so buying aftermarket keys for those trucks is a waste of time and money. However by the new body some do not have enough adjustment to get it close but that depends on which keys it's factory equipped with.
> 
> This is why you shim the Timbrens down so they become effective sooner when starting at a higher ride height, therefore it's working just as if it was still near stock ride height. Been shimming them on 'adjusted' trucks for years and it works well.


What are you using to "shim" them?

I'd love to see pictures.


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## NBI Lawn (Oct 15, 2007)

B&B;1179053 said:


> This is why you shim the Timbrens down so they become effective sooner when starting at a higher ride height, therefore it's working just as if it was still near stock ride height. Been shimming them on 'adjusted' trucks for years and it works well.


When I turned my T-bars up it gained about 1.5-2" in front. There is no way to safely shim the Timbrens to sit in the intended position. I am sure I could get them closer but they still wont be effective. Not saying it isnt possible to do just that it probably isnt worth while...for me anyways.


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## Mr. Horsepower (Feb 21, 2010)

Mr. Horsepower;1174493 said:


> I've got 350lbs of ballast behind the axle in my 07 GMT900 Tahoe with a Western HTS plow. I am having an issue where a steep downhill driveway meets the road. The bottom of the receiver brackets are scraping pretty hard. I'm going to need to put in the front end leveling kit.


Here are some pics of my problem. A 2" lift will be too much for the situation. I'm thinking about using the Readylift RL66-3090 which is adjustable from 1.0 to 1.5, somewhere in the range should work for me. Anyone use this product on a 07 and up Tahoe or Silverado 1500?


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

If its hitting without the blade on, its really going to hit with it on. Your going to need more then 1" lift, 2" maybe more.


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## Mr. Horsepower (Feb 21, 2010)

Epic Lawn Care;1179350 said:


> If its hitting without the blade on, its really going to hit with it on. Your going to need more then 1" lift, 2" maybe more.


When I took these pictures I did not have the ballast in the back which brings the nose up.


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

NBI Lawn;1179263 said:


> When I turned my T-bars up it gained about 1.5-2" in front. There is no way to safely shim the Timbrens to sit in the intended position. I am sure I could get them closer but they still wont be effective. Not saying it isnt possible to do just that it probably isnt worth while...for me anyways.


Just because it isn't "worthwhile" or possible to you, do not claim there's no way to do it and safely because that is incorrect. It's not a difficult task by any means.


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## NBI Lawn (Oct 15, 2007)

B&B;1180006 said:


> Just because it isn't "worthwhile" or possible to you, do not claim there's no way to do it and safely because that is incorrect. It's not a difficult task by any means.


There is a way to do just about anything. It IS whether or not its worth while if they will not perform as intended or at all for that matter. I never said it was a difficult task...


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

B&B;1180006 said:


> Just because it isn't "worthwhile" or possible to you, do not claim there's no way to do it and safely because that is incorrect. It's not a difficult task by any means.


B&B do you have pictures of how its done?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

NBI Lawn;1180080 said:


> There is a way to do just about anything. It IS whether or not its worth while if they will not perform as intended or at all for that matter.


It's well worth it because it DOES make them function as intended, that's thats whole point to doing it in the first place. But since you're basing the finished outcome on perception rather than experience I can expect that.



Epic Lawn Care;1180096 said:


> B&B do you have pictures of how its done?


Doesn't really require a pic but I'll have a customers unit at the shop for some plow upgrades tomorrow so I can get a pic if you'd like. It has 8 turns in the T-bars and shimmed Timbrens on it. He added the 8 turns the day he bought it new to rid it of the stink bug stance and I added the shimmed Tim's when I installed the 9.5 MVP+ several years ago, as I always do on any truck that's had a sizable T-bar adjustment. The owner says it was very worthwhile.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

B&B;1180163 said:


> It's well worth it because it DOES make them function as intended, that's thats whole point to doing it in the first place. But since you're basing the finished outcome on perception rather than experience I can expect that.
> 
> Doesn't really require a pic but I'll have a customers unit at the shop for some plow upgrades tomorrow so I can get a pic if you'd like. It has 8 turns in the T-bars and shimmed Timbrens on it. He added the 8 turns the day he bought it new to rid it of the stink bug stance and I added the shimmed Tim's when I installed the 9.5 MVP+ several years ago, as I always do on any truck that's had a sizable T-bar adjustment. The owner says it was very worthwhile.


I have the t bars cranked on all three trucks, and all three have timbrens. Id like to know how to shim them, what did you use and how did you install the shim? Thanks.


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## NBI Lawn (Oct 15, 2007)

B&B;1180163 said:


> It's well worth it because it DOES make them function as intended, that's thats whole point to doing it in the first place. But since you're basing the finished outcome on perception rather than experience I can expect that.
> 
> Doesn't really require a pic but I'll have a customers unit at the shop for some plow upgrades tomorrow so I can get a pic if you'd like. It has 8 turns in the T-bars and shimmed Timbrens on it. He added the 8 turns the day he bought it new to rid it of the stink bug stance and I added the shimmed Tim's when I installed the 9.5 MVP+ several years ago, as I always do on any truck that's had a sizable T-bar adjustment. The owner says it was very worthwhile.


Huh, I am intereseted in seeing pictures as well.


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## dieseld (Dec 30, 2005)

Subscribing. We are not talking about the wedge that comes with Timbrens are we? It looks like it copuld be called a shim?


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

So you ever get those pictures?


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## Raconteur (Oct 3, 2010)

Buy an '11 2500HD . and use correct ballast . No need for Timbrens , air bags . lift kits , level kits . Dont need to touch the torsion bars . Just hook and go .


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Epic Lawn Care;1184100 said:


> So you ever get those pictures?












It's clear to see how much T-bar adjustment this truck has based on the severity of the lower control arm angle, a stock truck is much more parallel to the ground. And taking a hub center to fender well measurement of 26" clearly indicates it's nowhere near OEM ride height spec yet you can also clearly see the Timbren is right there ready to support the weight as soon as it's applied.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

B&B;1184276 said:


> It's clear to see how much T-bar adjustment this truck has based on the severity of the lower control arm angle, a stock truck is much more parallel to the ground. And taking a hub center to fender well measurement of 26" clearly indicates it's nowhere near OEM ride height spec yet you can also clearly see the Timbren is right there ready to support the weight as soon as it's applied.


What did you use to shim it, and do you have a close up shot of the shimmed timbren?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

If you look closely there's two additional washers between the wedge and the washer that's Timbren includes. Since they're mounted so close to the pivot point of the control arm it doesn't require much 'adjustment' to move them down to where they're just as effective as if the truck was still at stock ride height. In most cases a single washer is enough to cover a truck with just an inch of extra height and two washers will cover up to about two full inches depending on the original specifics of the truck's configuration.


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## SnowGuy73 (Apr 7, 2003)

B&B;1184866 said:


> If you look closely there's two additional washers between the wedge and the washer that's Timbren includes. Since they're mounted so close to the pivot point of the control arm it doesn't require much 'adjustment' to move them down to where they're just as effective as if the truck was still at stock ride height. In most cases a single washer is enough to cover a truck with just an inch of extra height and two washers will cover up to about two full inches depending on the original specifics of the truck's configuration.


O ok thanks.


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## Mr. Jon (Feb 24, 2010)

B&B;1184866 said:


> If you look closely there's two additional washers between the wedge and the washer that's Timbren includes. Since they're mounted so close to the pivot point of the control arm it doesn't require much 'adjustment' to move them down to where they're just as effective as if the truck was still at stock ride height. In most cases a single washer is enough to cover a truck with just an inch of extra height and two washers will cover up to about two full inches depending on the original specifics of the truck's configuration.


where did you get the additional washers?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Fastenal. Same place I purchase 90% of my fasteners. Used to make them from scratch but once I discovered them there it was a no brainer at .30 a piece.


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## kevink1973 (Dec 28, 2009)

I put timbrens on my 09 dodge 2500 when i bought it. 4 mos later put 2 in leveling spacer on top of coils. The timbrens looked like a waste then UNTIL i installed 8.5 xtreme v and it came down ALMOST to the point of touching the tims. So now when driving down the road i know they are getting some use when going over bumps and such. But i bellieve the coil spacers did a great deal w/handling the plow weight because coil springs a progressive( the more they sqaush the more they will stiffen). Anyway i think both are great products but how in the world can they have the nerve to ask $200+ for rubber spacers.


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## timebomb9900 (Jan 9, 2011)

I put those Timbrens on my dodge 1500, WOW, what a huge difference... best $130 i spent...


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## Mr. Jon (Feb 24, 2010)

B&B;1192734 said:


> Fastenal. Same place I purchase 90% of my fasteners. Used to make them from scratch but once I discovered them there it was a no brainer at .30 a piece.


B&B, thanks for your help and great advice. One more question, with two (2) 1/8" thick washers for each timbren, do you need longer bolts?


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## herbert02 (Jan 18, 2011)

You need to do the torsion keys. Make sure they are forged. You will also need exteneded length shocks if you have a chevy. Dont get shock extenders. After all this you will need an alignment. I had and still have timbrens on my silverado. Alone they helped a little but not what I was looking for. It still sagged in the front.


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## sd_truck_tech (Jan 17, 2011)

*Leveling Kit*

Unless you are unhappy with the ride stance when the vehicle is unloaded (no plow), then you should NOT need to change your torsion keys and "level" the vehicle out. Unless you are dealing with an extraordinarily heavy plow, the timbren kit should suffice.


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## Pharoah72 (Feb 21, 2010)

*Kudos to Timbren Shims*

I agree with B&B.
Shims work well to x-fer the load to the Timbren sooner w/ a "cranked" T-bar front. It makes perfect sense; and I've done it too...the Fastenal way.


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## Pharoah72 (Feb 21, 2010)

Yes - you need longer bolts!!
Whatever distance you bush out w/ spacer (say 1/4" add that to length of a new Grade 5 Bolt - 
So check the Timbren Shematic online for bolt existing bolt length that came with kit add the increase and buy two new bolts when you order the shims


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## Mr. Jon (Feb 24, 2010)

Finally got around to installing the washers to shim my timbrens. In the process the threaded piece came out of the rubber. So I had to put vice grips on the threaded piece to remove the bolt and install the washers. When putting it all back together I just pushed the rubber back on the threaded piece. Is this normal? Or is the rubber piece going to fall off down the road?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

That's isn't good, it/they won't stay on with the insert loose therefore you'll loose them on the road. But Timbren is generally good about warranty claims so all is not lost. No pun intended.


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## Mr. Jon (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks so much B&B. I will be on the horn with Timbren tomorrow and I'll let you know the results. With the Timbrens still there for now they are much better with the additional washers!


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## Mr. Jon (Feb 24, 2010)

Just got off the phone with Timbren, and a new kit is on the way!


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## Mr. Jon (Feb 24, 2010)

What a great company. New Timbrens arrived in less than a week and are now installed.


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## Zigracer (Mar 12, 2010)

Hey Jeseydrew. Give us an update/ report on how the 2" lift kit has been working for you - good points as well as bad. Thanks.

Zig


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## allie11 (Jan 30, 2011)

I ordered a set of sumo's for front. f-250 super duty 7.3l psd. I'll post my findings as soon as i install and use for a nit. I use a western 8ft pro plus. Just want that extra support for traveling,bumps,etc. we'll see! I was gonna go with timbrens but I hear that they give a rough ride. I can't confirm that cause i never tried them- just what I heard.


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