# The great debate on salt and concrete



## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Tell me why or why not to put rocksalt on concrete.


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## EGLC (Nov 8, 2007)

when every paver company says not to use it on their pavers I think that is reason enough


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Aren't clay pavers supposed to be able to handle salt? Or am I thinking of something else?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

EGLC;941609 said:


> when every paver company says not to use it on their pavers I think that is reason enough


So......why not on a concrete driveway?


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

They key thing to rememeber here is proper application rates.

Anything used for de-icing (altering the freezing temperature of water, or in this case the snow/ice on the pavement) can and will destroy pavement and concrete due to increasing the freeze/thaw cycles. As I said, it all comes down to applying said de-icer *properly*.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

JohnnyU;941665 said:


> Anything used for de-icing can and will destroy pavement and concrete due to increasing the freeze/thaw cycles.


Not necessarily.

Using a deicer can very easily reduce or eliminate refreeze.


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

cretebaby;941673 said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Using a deicer can very easily reduce or eliminate refreeze.


The melting temperature can be reduced based on the concentration of the salt in solution. A weaker concentration will have less affect on the melting temperature than a stronger concentration. Hence the reason that more salt is required as the temperature decreases.

The problem arises when enough salt is used to melt off the snow, but creates a melting temperature that is close to that of the pavement temperature. If day/night thermal cycles pass that temperature, you end up with a daily freeze/thaw cycle which will inevitably result in damage to the pavement. Increasing the solution concentration would help lower the melting point and prevent refreezing.

Salt (NaCl), MagCloride (MgCl), and Calcium Chloride (CaCl) all have different melting points when in solution. The concentrations required to reach a certain MP will be different for each compound.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

WIPensFan;941594 said:


> Tell me why or why not to put rocksalt on concrete.


Put it on the concrete because if you put it on the grass it will kill it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

EGLC;941609 said:


> when every paver company says not to use it on their pavers I think that is reason enough


No, it isn't.

"All" the scientists and politicians are telling us that manmade global warming is true, do you believe it?



JohnnyU;941665 said:


> They key thing to rememeber here is proper application rates.
> 
> Anything used for de-icing (altering the freezing temperature of water, or in this case the snow/ice on the pavement) *can and will destroy pavement and concrete due to increasing the freeze/thaw cycles. * As I said, it all comes down to applying said de-icer *properly*.


Patently false.

Sorry Johnny, you are wrong.



JohnnyU;941707 said:


> The melting temperature can be reduced based on the concentration of the salt in solution. A weaker concentration will have less affect on the melting temperature than a stronger concentration. Hence the reason that more salt is required as the temperature decreases.
> 
> The problem arises when enough salt is used to melt off the snow, but creates a melting temperature that is close to that of the pavement temperature. *If day/night thermal cycles pass that temperature, you end up with a daily freeze/thaw cycle which will inevitably result in damage to the pavement.* Increasing the solution concentration would help lower the melting point and prevent refreezing.
> 
> Salt (NaCl), MagCloride (MgCl), and Calcium Chloride (CaCl) all have different melting points when in solution. The concentrations required to reach a certain MP will be different for each compound.


Wrong again.

And I can prove it by looking out my window. The county I live in has idiots in the Road Commission. They apply the same amount of salt per lane mile at 30* when the sun is coming out as the middle of Jan when the temp is 10* and it is snowing at an inch per hour. So by your statement, our concrete highways would be reduced to gravel by now.

Salt WILL NOT harm properly installed and cured concrete. Even the link you posted from the Salt Institute says that.

Or maybe I'm just dang lucky because I have yet to have a customer fault me with destroying their concrete by using salt or any other de-icer in the past 20 years, have to ask my father if he had any before that, we started salting in '79 so we should have some history of problems if your statements are accurate.



Bajak;941748 said:


> Put it on the concrete because if you put it on the grass it will kill it.


:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Not if he used Beat juice.


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

Mark Oomkes;942016 said:


> So by your statement, our concrete highways would be reduced to gravel by now.


You've obviosuly never driven on our Illinois roads. In many cases, gravel would be an improvement. 

That being said, I don't buy into the 'salt use will ruin concrete' when both are properly installed and applied. It's when you have people that literally 'gravel' a parking lot with salt or it is poorly finished that _I beleive_ causes the problems.


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## EGLC (Nov 8, 2007)

I guess I'll have to take some pictures for you guys to see what rock salt does to natural stone and pavers.

And yah I do believe the companies Mark. Just because science is now political, especailly with global warming doesn't mean I give up on everything that is said :laughing: I mean seriously buddy _not_ everything in the world is a conspiracy lmao....the paver companies and calcuim chloride companys are not having secret meetings and coming up with accusations to put out the rock salt industry.

I don't see what the big deal is anyway. I buy my calcuim chloride for like $11/50LB bag, I know I make a hell of a lot more then then $11 on my concrete drives, pavers and natural stone for applying de-icing materials and can upsell the calcuim because its safer.


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## DJ Contracting (Dec 16, 2003)

Gee I better stop putting salt on my driveway then, these last 12 years of putting salt on might damage my twenty year old driveway, oh by the way the driveway still look good no pitting or chipping...ummm maybe I'll stop dropping my heavy plow on it also and use a shovel? Come on guys use common sense when you apply.


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## toby4492 (Dec 28, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;942016 said:


> No, it isn't.
> 
> "All" the scientists and politicians are telling us that manmade global warming is true, do you believe it?
> 
> ...


15 yr old Florida girls, you are all so opinionated


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

These Threads are like Beating you head against a wall....TORTURE!!!!!...


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

EGLC;941609 said:


> when every paver company says not to use it on their pavers I think that is reason enough


Salt does not hurt pavers....



EGLC;942036 said:


> I guess I'll have to take some pictures for you guys to see what rock salt does to natural stone and pavers.


Please do........even then I might not believe it.

You see, we have a large pad of pavers directly in front of two of our salt bins. They have been in place for many years. We used left over remnants from paver jobs so this pad consists of just about every flavor of paver and paver manufacture. Piles of salt live on top of this pad......short doubles grind in the salt as this is the pivot point for their axles before they dump in the bins. Large loaders continually scrapes salt off them to load trucks. Piles of salt here and there partying all winter long on these pavers. You couldn't find a more adverse environment for pavers than this pad. Oh, and it was also never sealed.

During the Spring, Summer & Fall you can inspect these all you want and will find ZERO adverse affect from the salt.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

JohnnyU;942024 said:


> You've obviosuly never driven on our Illinois roads. In many cases, gravel would be an improvement.
> 
> That being said, I don't buy into the 'salt use will ruin concrete' when both are properly installed and applied. It's when you have people that literally 'gravel' a parking lot with salt or it is poorly finished that _I beleive_ causes the problems.


Roads are crap because.....Highway and road construction are a BILLION dollar business and employ Alot of people ..They are made to fail...Can we say STIMULUS...payup


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

TCLA, how about a picture of that?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

WIPensFan;942083 said:


> TCLA, how about a picture of that?


Let me see what I can do.........I'm swamped with paperwork right now.....but I will post it.

:::even though you are a Penguins fan::::


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

TCLA;942091 said:


> Let me see what I can do.........I'm swamped with paperwork right now.....but I will post it.
> 
> :::even though you are a Penguins fan::::


Me Too...Im swamped...:laughing:


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

TCLA;942091 said:


> Let me see what I can do.........I'm swamped with paperwork right now.....but I will post it.
> 
> :::even though you are a Penguins fan::::


I have a lot of unused pavers sitting out back of my shop and have always thought about doing something like what you said you have. Just wondering what it would look like. Also interested to see it under a salt pile!

Paperwork?...WTF is that!

Pens have lost 5 straight :crying: You should be :laughing:


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

You can't see the pavers from this pic, but trust me.......they are 3-5' below this salt ramp if front of these two bins. Later I will post a pic of the pad itself.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

EGLC;941609 said:


> when every paver company says not to use it on their pavers I think that is reason enough


That's enough for you to concede to them? Don't you care to know why that's their stand?

In all reality, a concrete drive, sidewalk, road, etc.. is far different than a paver. Pavers are obviously molded, not finished like cast in place crete.

The concrete for pavers is generally extremely low slump & strong, which leads to many pavers exceeding 8000 psi in strength, where a concrete driveway is 4-5000 psi for a target. The problem with pavers is that the surface is far more open & pourous than a driveway, allowing the brine to enter easier. From my experience, they still tend to stand up well to de-icers regardless.

And I don't see where calcium would be any safer to a paver anyways.

Glad to see TCLA has done an accidental study of sorts to show that they can handle the salt.



WIPensFan;941616 said:


> Aren't clay pavers supposed to be able to handle salt? Or am I thinking of something else?


Clay pavers are far denser (almost always) than the crete pavers. The only downside of this system with salt would be a wet-laid application. Some installers use too much lime in their joints, which can degrade fairly fast. You'd be hard pressed to find a concrete paver that could compare to a good clay when it comes to longevity. Heck, theres pavers of sorts in Europe that have seen the elements for hundreds of years w/o failure.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Thanks for the pics TCLA, thats a lot of salt! Looking forward to the next one of the pad.

Jomama45, when you say, "lime in their joints" your talking pavers mortered in? I'm thinking of the dry laid type - sand joint.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

JohnnyU;941707 said:


> The melting temperature can be reduced based on the concentration of the salt in solution. A weaker concentration will have less affect on the melting temperature than a stronger concentration. Hence the reason that more salt is required as the temperature decreases.
> 
> The problem arises when enough salt is used to melt off the snow, but creates a melting temperature that is close to that of the pavement temperature. * If day/night thermal cycles pass that temperature, you end up with a daily freeze/thaw cycle which will inevitably result in damage to the pavement.* Increasing the solution concentration would help lower the melting point and prevent refreezing.
> 
> Salt (NaCl), MagCloride (MgCl), and Calcium Chloride (CaCl) all have different melting points when in solution. The concentrations required to reach a certain MP will be different for each compound.


Johnny, this has always been my understanding as well. It's really a long term thing though. In general, freeze/thaw cycles wear on concrete, whether it be naturally occuring or accelerated by de-icers. So, IMO, de-icers can shorten the lifespan of good concrete (not drastically by any means) as well. I can also agree with crete that the same concept could actually increase the lifespan theoretically. I think it depends alot on actual temps in your region.

Some simple reading:

http://www.cement.org/tech/cct_dur_freeze-thaw.asp


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

jomama45;942125 said:


> That's enough for you to concede to them? Don't you care to know why that's their stand?
> 
> In all reality, a concrete drive, sidewalk, road, etc.. is far different than a paver. Pavers are obviously molded, not finished like cast in place crete.
> 
> ...


Great Answer Jomama...one more thing is generally concrete pavers do not have air entrained in the mix....


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

WIPensFan;942136 said:


> Thanks for the pics TCLA, thats a lot of salt! Looking forward to the next one of the pad.
> 
> Jomama45, when you say, "lime in their joints" *your talking pavers mortered in*? I'm thinking of the dry laid type - sand joint.


Yes, I mean a wet-laid or mortared application. Dry laid wouldn't have the issue with lime.

And WOW TCLA, you're really not a poser, are you!!!!!!


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

jomama45;942149 said:


> Yes, I mean a wet-laid or mortared application. Dry laid wouldn't have the issue with lime.
> 
> And WOW TCLA, you're really not a poser, are you!!!!!!


I can tell you first hand...TCLA is not a Poser...Big operation


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JohnnyU;942024 said:


> You've obviosuly never driven on our Illinois roads. In many cases, gravel would be an improvement.


I have been on many, many roads and highways in Illinois. And they are fantastic compared with Michigan roads.

In the past year or so, there have been approx 1/3 of counties that have returned roads to gravel because of lack of money for repairs and maintenance.



Matson Snow;942079 said:


> Roads are crap because.....Highway and road construction are a BILLION dollar business and employ Alot of people ..They are made to fail...Can we say STIMULUS...payup


Oh yeah.

Great example just within the past few years. Over here on the west side we had a new connector highway built, M6. The first stretch to open was built with asphalt. The bids were received and it was going to be concrete. Asphalt lobbyists got involved and got MDOT to rebid it, and what a surprise, the asphalt bid came in $600,000 less than concrete. The second time around.  Within a few years (while under warranty) the contractor had to do a bunch of repairs and for 90% of that time frame there was little to no traffic because the entire connector was not open.

Of course, it continued to get worse. So last year MDOT has to mill it and repave it at a cost of around $1.8 MILLION.

That initial savings of $600K sure was worth it. :realmad:



JohnnyU;942024 said:


> That being said, I don't buy into the 'salt use will ruin concrete' when both are properly installed and applied. It's when you have people that literally 'gravel' a parking lot with salt or it is poorly finished that I beleive causes the problems.


You contradict yourself.

If someone 'gravels' a lot or drive, they are going to greatly REDUCE the amount of thaw\refreeze cycles.


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

from my experiance, rock salt on concrete two years old and older has been ok. if it is applied too heavy it will leave "stains" that will take a couple good rainfalls in the spring to wash away. it has not ever caused any damage to the concrete. it is very well understood by anyone in the concrete industry not to use "rock salt" for certian, but also any de-icer treatments on "new" concrete that is less than one year of age. every concrete supplier will have that statement clearly spelled out on a concrete delivery ticket that you would sign to accept delivery. that puts the burden on you and not the concrete supplier for damage done by de-icers.

needless to say that when a dumb PM goes out with a propane burner to clear a new homewalk and pops the hell out of the top of the concrete, it also is not covered by the concrete warranty, just because he saw not to use de-icers....

stick around a while and you'll see it all


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

jomama45;942149 said:


> And WOW TCLA, you're really not a poser, are you!!!!!!


Nor am I a piker......


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

smokin4by;942158 said:


> it is very well understood by anyone in the concrete industry not to use "rock salt" for certian, but also any de-icer treatments on "new" concrete that is less than one year of age. every concrete supplier will have that statement clearly spelled out on a concrete delivery ticket that you would sign to accept delivery. that puts the burden on you and not the concrete supplier for damage done by de-icers.


Then maybe you can splain to me how muni's prevent salt from touching new concrete on roads, curbs, bridges, etc.

Never see them waiting a year to de-ice for the concrete to cure.

And I have applied de-icers many, many, many, many, many times to concrete less than a year old without deleterious results. (my new, big word for the day. :laughing: )


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Matson Snow;942153 said:


> I can tell you first hand...TCLA is not a Poser...Big operation


I've picked up on that, but I think someone earlier in the year was questioning his knowledge w/o realizing the size of the operation he runs.



TCLA;942160 said:


> Nor am I a piker......


LOL, I had to look that word up in Wiki.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

jomama45;942165 said:


> I've picked up on that, but I think someone earlier in the year was questioning his knowledge w/o realizing the size of the operation he runs.


I've been pretending that I know what I'm doing for a long time now.


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## TightSqueeze (Dec 23, 2009)

JohnnyU;941707 said:


> If day/night thermal cycles pass that temperature, you end up with a daily freeze/thaw cycle which will inevitably result in damage to the pavement.QUOTE]
> 
> A little something from our friends at the Salt Institute...
> 
> ...


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;942016 said:


> *Or maybe I'm just dang lucky* because I have yet to have a customer fault me with destroying their concrete by using salt or any other de-icer in the past 20 years, have to ask my father if he had any before that, we started salting in '79 so we should have some history of problems if your statements are accurate.


*That would be my guess, you know what they say, "the sun shines on every dogs a$$ every once in a while!" * :laughing:



Mark Oomkes;942164 said:


> Then maybe you can splain to me how muni's prevent salt from touching new concrete on roads, curbs, bridges, etc.
> 
> Never see them waiting a year to de-ice for the concrete to cure.
> 
> And I have applied de-icers many, many, many, many, many times to concrete less than a year old without *deleterious* results. (my new, big word for the day. :laughing: )


DANM, had to look up that word too. 

See post above, you might be living on luck. Or the fact that the cement comes from your region & is already acclimated to your regions conditions. Same proven theory of the salt origin debate. 

I still wouldn't condone using de-icers the first year as it exposes yourself to more liability, but I'm sure you have something in place to CYA in this situation. Either way, it's hard to argue with the track record you've had with first year concrete. I explain to customers the potential downsides of deicers the first year, but add that I don't expect them to leave the driveway (or lot, whatever) in a dangerous condition either. It's basically what the lesser of the 2 eveils?


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;942164 said:


> And I have applied de-icers many, many, many, many, many times to concrete less than a year old without deleterious results. (my new, big word for the day. :laughing: )


hey nice big word for the day...new one for me 

i don't think that municipal worry so much about their concrete for a couple reasons. 1st they normally have it placed and finished by contractor that have a good understanding of what they are doing when building new roads and bridges. plus all their concrete is placed with a sealer that is far superior than anything a normal residential driveway would ever see. that is saying that whoever laid done the driveway or sidewalks even used cure and seal on them in the first place. most residential sealers are clear and hard to tell if that step was taken or not. 2nd municials have your tax dollars to replace what gets damaged so they don't really care. its job security for them, and they are not money out of their pockets. plus a most midwestern roads are on a 11-13 year service life before resurface.

most of the staining from salt does occur on concrete that was not ever sealed.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

if TCLA is a poser, i want to be a poser too


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

TCLA;942177 said:


> I've been pretending that I know what I'm doing for a long time now.


You should try pretending to be a 15 YO girl from Miami on a snowplowing forum, that's tough!



smokin4by;942196 said:


> hey nice big word for the day...new one for me
> 
> i don't think that municipal worry so much about their concrete for a couple reasons. .


Not saying they don't worry about it, I'm saying that there isn't damage to it. Maybe for the reasons you state, but I can't believe that every lowball contractor out there does their work 100% every time and that no corners are cut on sealant.


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

Mark Oomkes;942156 said:


> You contradict yourself.
> 
> If someone 'gravels' a lot or drive, they are going to greatly REDUCE the amount of thaw\refreeze cycles.


I just posted the information about salts in solution. Doesn't mean I agree/disagree with the effects on concrete.

The second part of your statement only holds true if the salt dissolves into solution. Otherwise it's just sitting on top of the pavement.

At any rate Mark, I use salt on concrete and have never noticed _deleterious_ issues over the last 10 years of doing so. There's my final non-contradictary statement.... :laughing:


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

smokin4by;942196 said:


> hey nice big word for the day...new one for me
> 
> i don't think that municipal worry so much about their concrete for a couple reasons. 1st they normally have it placed and finished by contractor that have a good understanding of what they are doing when building new roads and bridges. *plus all their concrete is placed with a sealer that is far superior than anything a normal residential driveway would ever see.* that is saying that whoever laid done the driveway or sidewalks even used cure and seal on them in the first place. most residential sealers are clear and hard to tell if that step was taken or not. 2nd municials have your tax dollars to replace what gets damaged so they don't really care. its job security for them, and they are not money out of their pockets. plus a most midwestern roads are on a 11-13 year service life before resurface.
> 
> most of the staining from salt does occur on concrete that was not ever sealed.


I agree with everything you posted except whats in bold. As far as I know, they simply use a waterbased, parrafin wax, white pigmented CURING COMPOUND, not to be confused with a sealer. It simply allows for an adequate cure & wears out relatively quickly. A good petro based concrete sealed driveway should be much better protected, but thats only if it's actually sealed. I think with the amount of traffic most roads see, an actual sealer would have to be applied fairly often to work.

As for highways & damage from salts, I think spalling would be unnoticeable with the deep texture of highways. Would probably be an improvement even over some of the tining.


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;942164 said:


> Then maybe you can splain to me how muni's prevent salt from touching new concrete on roads, curbs, bridges, etc.
> 
> Never see them waiting a year to de-ice for the concrete to cure.
> 
> And I have applied de-icers many, many, many, many, many times to concrete less than a year old without deleterious results. (my new, big word for the day. :laughing: )


I was waiting for someone to bring that up. LOL The whole salt thing on concrete is just a tatic to cover their ass.

The comment about Illinois roads is mute, cause the majority of the crap roads in Illinois are asphalt. Ever wonder why all the express ways in and around Chicago are concrete? Cause their life expextancy is longer than asphalt. IDOT salts the concrete roads just as much or if not more than the asphalt roads.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

buckwheat_la;942209 said:


> if TCLA is a poser, i want to be a poser too


TCLA...I think there are some GUYS on here that now have a man crush on you after seeing the size of your Salt Pile.....:laughing::laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Matson Snow;942252 said:


> TCLA...I think there are some GUYS on here that now have a man crush on you after seeing the size of your Salt Pile.....:laughing::laughing:


Excellent!!!!!!!!

LMAO

:laughing::laughing:


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Matson Snow;942252 said:


> TCLA...I think there are some GUYS on here that now have a man crush on you after seeing the size of your Salt Pile.....:laughing::laughing:


I know that I do!


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Matson Snow;942252 said:


> TCLA...I think there are some GUYS on here that now have a man crush on you after seeing the size of your Salt Pile.....:laughing::laughing:


more of salt pile envy, , really though it is more the idea of "if he needs that much salt......he must be running some pretty cool equipment, and be a stud when it comes to big contracts", lol, makes my loader and skidsteers seem insignificant:crying:


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

That's a picture of the DOT pile!! I wanna see a pic of TCLA holding a piece of mail with his name on it wearing a shirt with the letters TCLA embroidered across the front while standing on a loader with the letters TCLA painted across the side!! Then I'll believe it's his pile, and only then. :laughing:


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

true, true you are right about the curing compound. i guess my point is that it is step skipped alot in residential concrete. and you do have a good point with the texture of road concrete and driveway concrete and the visible effects. plus traffic will actually polish the surface of conrete too with wear.


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

smokin4by;942315 said:


> true, true you are right about the curing compound. i guess my point is that it is step skipped alot in residential concrete. and you do have a good point with the texture of road concrete and driveway concrete and the visible effects. plus traffic will actually polish the surface of conrete too with wear.


We use "right cure" or "white cure" to slow down curing time in higher temperatures. You don't want the concrete to cure too fast.

Another difference also is many municipalities / government agencies here will require testing while we pour the concrete for slump, air and cylinder test samples, to ensure the concrete mix is good quality. Anything wrong that can't be fixed on site the truck is sent away and the concrete wasted... (sometimes delivered to another job that doesn't require an engineers report.)


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

right, plus DOT concrete has a slightly air content too. if you've never had a problem with rock salt on concrete i would consider yourself very lucky too. that is alot of liability on you, especially not knowing for sure that it was exterior concrete in the first place. at least around here alot of concrete finishers will use left over slab mixes with little to no air in them to pour porches and walks on other lots. if there is not enough air inthe mix, then the ice you melt that turns into water may not permiate threw the concrete fast enough before it re-freezes and pops the finishes surface off.

it is worth the extra money in my opinon to not use rock salt on concrete, and if the customer wants it then take the time to explain the potential side effects to the concrete. it may not always work but i'm sure most would pay a few bucks more to use something that won't hurt it, as to bring in the cost of equipment to tear out a drive and walks and pay to have new concrete poured again. i don't want to take the chance on those costs, and i dont think they would eather. even if you had them sign a waiver


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

smokin4by;942655 said:


> right, plus DOT concrete has a slightly air content too. if you've never had a problem with rock salt on concrete i would consider yourself very lucky too. that is alot of liability on you, especially not knowing for sure that it was exterior concrete in the first place. at least around here alot of concrete finishers will use left over slab mixes with little to no air in them to pour porches and walks on other lots. if there is not enough air inthe mix, then the ice you melt that turns into water may not permiate threw the concrete fast enough before it re-freezes and pops the finishes surface off.
> 
> it is worth the extra money in my opinon to not use rock salt on concrete, and if the customer wants it then take the time to explain the potential side effects to the concrete. it may not always work but i'm sure most would pay a few bucks more to *use something that won't hurt it*, as to bring in the cost of equipment to tear out a drive and walks and pay to have new concrete poured again. i don't want to take the chance on those costs, and i dont think they would eather. even if you had them sign a waiver


Which would be?


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

smokin4by;942655 said:


> right, plus DOT concrete has a slightly air content too. if you've never had a problem with rock salt on concrete i would consider yourself very lucky too. that is alot of liability on you, especially not knowing for sure that it was exterior concrete in the first place. at least around here alot of concrete finishers will use left over slab mixes with little to no air in them to pour porches and walks on other lots. if there is not enough air inthe mix, then the ice you melt that turns into water may not permiate threw the concrete fast enough before it re-freezes and pops the finishes surface off.
> 
> it is worth the extra money in my opinon to not use rock salt on concrete, and if the customer wants it then take the time to explain the potential side effects to the concrete. it may not always work but i'm sure most would pay a few bucks more to use something that won't hurt it, as to bring in the cost of equipment to tear out a drive and walks and pay to have new concrete poured again. i don't want to take the chance on those costs, and i dont think they would eather. even if you had them sign a waiver


 I think we are going to need more popcorn.:redbounce:laughing:


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

smokin4by;942655 said:


> it is worth the extra money in my opinon to not use rock salt on concrete, and if the customer wants it then take the time to explain the potential side effects to the concrete. it may not always work but i'm sure most would pay a few bucks more to use something that won't hurt it, as to bring in the cost of equipment to tear out a drive and walks and pay to have new concrete poured again. i don't want to take the chance on those costs, and i dont think they would eather. even if you had them sign a waiver


So, exactly HOW do the reactions of mag chloride or calcium chloride with snow or ice differ?

While you're at it, could you splain to this simpleton why I would want to use either of these de-icers that have been proven to actually chemically attack concrete?


----------



## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;942684 said:


> So, exactly HOW do the reactions of mag chloride or calcium chloride with snow or ice differ?
> 
> While you're at it, could you splain to this simpleton why I would want to use either of these de-icers that have been proven to actually chemically attack concrete?


I bet he is thinking propane torch. Yeh thats it.


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

smokin4by;942655 said:


> right, plus DOT concrete has a slightly air content too. if you've never had a problem with rock salt on concrete i would consider yourself very lucky too. that is alot of liability on you, especially not knowing for sure that it was exterior concrete in the first place. at least around here alot of concrete finishers will use left over slab mixes with little to no air in them to pour porches and walks on other lots. if there is not enough air inthe mix, then the ice you melt that turns into water may not permiate threw the concrete fast enough before it re-freezes and pops the finishes surface off.
> 
> it is worth the extra money in my opinon to not use rock salt on concrete, and if the customer wants it then take the time to explain the potential side effects to the concrete. it may not always work but i'm sure most would pay a few bucks more to use something that won't hurt it, as to bring in the cost of equipment to tear out a drive and walks and pay to have new concrete poured again. i don't want to take the chance on those costs, and i dont think they would eather. even if you had them sign a waiver


WOW!!!!....First of all, once the air is in concrete it does not just disappear...Air is a chemical that you add to the mix....Second like so many others have said...A curing compoud goes a long way in helping the concrete cure...I want someone to explain to me HOW the DOTs get away with salting the roads...That is salt coming out the back of those trucks....It boils down to, use a GOOD Redi-Mix supplier and a GOOD contractor. ..Yes it might cost you a few more bucks..But its worth it...Just my 2.5 cents


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

The Portland Cement Association has a study that states Mag chloride is MORE AGGRESSIVE towards paved surfaces than salt....


----------



## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Where is IPlowYou when you need him?


----------



## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

i have good things to say about "quad release". the cost isn't out of line and its easy to find. there is another i like and it costs more and if you can sell it i like "Deicer Pellets from Midwest: Enviro-Mlt DD" you can google them to find out more info, but it does cost more. i only like to use it on drives that are colored/ stamped. plus those customers are the only ones willing to pay more for it. if they have a $50k drive they generally don't complain about paying a little bit more to protect it.

i will add i don't know how well it works in truck spreaders because i've only used it in hand spreaders. that way i don't have too much left and have to dump rock salt on top of it at the next job. plus i don't have to worry about rock salt left over in the speader when i spead one of those drives eather. i am also not sure about how easy it is to find. our local supplier had some to try and i guess i really havent used too much to need to order any more.


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

cretebaby;942716 said:


> Where is IPlowYou when you need him?


We NEED him more than ever..Plus i think Mark misses him..


----------



## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

One thing I always try to achieve with outside concrete is have enough air entrapment for water to permeate through so it wont have time to freeze.


----------



## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

smokin4by;942722 said:


> i have good things to say about "quad release". the cost isn't out of line and its easy to find. there is another i like and it costs more and if you can sell it i like "Deicer Pellets from Midwest: Enviro-Mlt DD" you can google them to find out more info, but it does cost more. .


Do you work for them?


----------



## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

smokin4by;942722 said:


> i have good things to say about "*quad release*". the cost isn't out of line and its easy to find. there is another i like and it costs more and if you can sell it i like "*Deicer Pellets from Midwest: Enviro-Mlt DD*" you can google them to find out more info, but it does cost more. i only like to use it on drives that are colored/ stamped. plus those customers are the only ones willing to pay more for it. if they have a $50k drive they generally don't complain about paying a little bit more to protect it.
> 
> i will add i don't know how well it works in truck spreaders because i've only used it in hand spreaders. that way i don't have too much left and have to dump rock salt on top of it at the next job. plus i don't have to worry about rock salt left over in the speader when i spead one of those drives eather. i am also not sure about how easy it is to find. our local supplier had some to try and i guess i really havent used too much to need to order any more.


I'm too lazy to wade thru the BS "magical" ingredients that come with reading all these deicers' sites. Do you mind just listing the ingredients in the 2 listed above here?



Matson Snow;942724 said:


> We NEED him more than ever..Plus i think Mark misses him..


Don't let Mark fool you, they're still FB friends. 



Bajak;942726 said:


> One thing I always try to achieve with outside concrete is have enough air entrapment for water to permeate through so it wont have time to freeze.


Cool, you must be jumping on the pervious concrete trend early up in Canada!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

smokin4by;942722 said:


> i have good things to say about "*quad release*". the cost isn't out of line and its easy to find. there is another i like and it costs more and if you can sell it i like "Deicer Pellets from Midwest: Enviro-Mlt DD" you can google them to find out more info, but it does cost more. i only like to use it on drives that are colored/ stamped. plus those customers are the only ones willing to pay more for it. if they have a $50k drive they generally don't complain about paying a little bit more to protect it.
> 
> i will add i don't know how well it works in truck spreaders because i've only used it in hand spreaders. that way i don't have too much left and have to dump rock salt on top of it at the next job. plus i don't have to worry about rock salt left over in the speader when i spead one of those drives eather. i am also not sure about how easy it is to find. our local supplier had some to try and i guess i really havent used too much to need to order any more.


You are crapping me right?

Quad release and you say you don't use sodium chloride? Have you looked at the MSDS?

Here, I'll post it for you:

_Ingredient Name Content CAS Number Exposure Limits
Sodium Chloride 5-95% 7647-40-7 5 mg/m3 as dust
Potassium Chloride 5-95% 7447-40-7 5 mg/m3 as dust
Magnesium Chloride 1-25% 7791-18-6 5 mg/m3 as dust
Calcium Chloride 0.1-10% 10043-52-4 5 mg/m3 as dust
Conditioning Agent <0.05% Mixture 5 mg/m3 as dust
_

Let me help you interpret what this means. See that 5-95% for sodium and potassium? That means that the majority is potassium--which is used as a filler product because it's de-icing properties suck to put it mildly--and the rest is sodium, with a couple percent of mag and chloride to make it look good.

Sodium and potassium are the cheap products, so that is what makes up the bulk of this product with just enough of the hot stuff to make it work fast and think you're getting your money's worth.

As for sodium acetate, IIRC, doesn't that turn snow\ice into a slushy mess that needs to be mechanically removed?


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

Bajak;942726 said:


> One thing I always try to achieve with outside concrete is have enough air entrapment for water to permeate through so it wont have time to freeze.


right...that is the biggest problem with concrete. but not all contractor care about that. they just think once its hard no one cares. but the down side is that we expose those problems after we provide a "safety" service and then get stuck with the damage.

concrete is getting to be more the normal around the midwest for paving. so this issue will only get bigger. its not going to be driveways, ramps and walks anymore. and the higher oil prices get, the better concrete price look. especially when 20 ton of asphalt is running sometimes upwards of $8-9k in indiana right now. we are also paving concrete right now out of dump trucks into paving machines and putting rollers on them behind the paver just like asphalt. once that catches on more. we may be buying alot less salt and needto take this issue more seriously

i'm also hoping some old timers will chime in with some knoledge too. i'm sure there are guys that have been de-icing concrete on here longer than i've been alive.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

jomama45;942740 said:


> I'm too lazy to wade thru the BS "magical" ingredients that come with reading all these deicers' sites. Do you mind just listing the ingredients in the 2 listed above here?
> 
> Don't let Mark fool you, they're still FB friends.
> 
> Cool, you must be jumping on the pervious concrete trend early up in Canada!


I'll take a stab at it....Sodium and Mag Chloride are 2 ingredients in there..Just a guess..


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

smokin4by;942751 said:


> i'm also hoping some old timers will chime in with some knoledge too. i'm sure there are guys that have been de-icing concrete on here longer than i've been alive.


And how old is that?

Maybe they already have and you're not listening?


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

smokin4by;942751 said:


> right...that is the biggest problem with concrete. but not all contractor care about that. they just think once its hard no one cares. but the down side is that we expose those problems after we provide a "safety" service and then get stuck with the damage.
> 
> concrete is getting to be more the normal around the midwest for paving. so this issue will only get bigger. its not going to be driveways, ramps and walks anymore. and the higher oil prices get, the better concrete price look. especially when 20 ton of asphalt is running sometimes upwards of $8-9k in indiana right now. we are also paving concrete right now out of dump trucks into paving machines and putting rollers on them behind the paver just like asphalt. once that catches on more. we may be buying alot less salt and needto take this issue more seriously
> 
> i'm also hoping some old timers will chime in with some knoledge too. i'm sure there are guys that have been de-icing concrete on here longer than i've been alive.


Hey smokin..Let me give you a tip...There are a couple of guys on this thread right now that you should pay attention to what they are saying....You could learn alot...:waving:


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;942761 said:


> And how old is that?
> 
> Maybe they already have and you're not listening?


So.....are you calling yourself an "old timer"?


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

cretebaby;942770 said:


> So.....are you calling yourself an "old timer"?


Is 15 the new 50?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cretebaby;942770 said:


> So.....are you calling yourself an "old timer"?


Heck no, I was referring to Matson and jomama. :laughing:


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

this thread is to advise others what works for you, and what doesn't. i've listed what i use for comparison. may not be the best but its what i use. it works for me where i live. the original question was why not to use rock salt on concrete. we have alot of freeze / thaw weather cycles in indiana so what works here might not work well in other places. we might get some rain that washs away the residue thats left making problems less likely. if it got below freezing and stayed that way all winter we might have to use something different.

and as far as "old timer" well i tell my dad thats anyone older than i am so take it for what its worth  i guess i would be an old timer to my 5 yr old.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;942773 said:


> Heck no, I was referring to Matson and jomama. :laughing:


Not me...I DON'T know Jack SH$%.....I just make Stupid comments and drink ALOT of beer.....


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

smokin4by;942778 said:


> this thread is to advise others what works for you, and what doesn't. i've listed what i use for comparison. may not be the best but its what i use. it works for me where i live. *the original question was why not to use rock salt on concrete*. we have alot of freeze / thaw weather cycles in indiana so what works here might not work well in other places. we might get some rain that washs away the residue thats left making problems less likely. if it got below freezing and stayed that way all winter we might have to use something different.
> 
> and as far as "old timer" well i tell my dad thats anyone older than i am so take it for what its worth  i guess i would be an old timer to my 5 yr old.


Was it?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

smokin4by;942778 said:


> this thread is to advise others what works for you, and what doesn't. i've listed what i use for comparison. may not be the best but its what i use. it works for me where i live. the original question was why not to use rock salt on concrete. we have alot of freeze / thaw weather cycles in indiana so what works here might not work well in other places. we might get some rain that washs away the residue thats left making problems less likely. if it got below freezing and stayed that way all winter we might have to use something different.
> 
> and as far as "old timer" well i tell my dad thats anyone older than i am so take it for what its worth  i guess i would be an old timer to my 5 yr old.


OK, and then you reply that the product you are using is more than likely rock salt, so you are saying to use sodium chloride on concrete?


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;942841 said:


> OK, and then you reply that the product you are using is more than likely rock salt, so you are saying to use sodium chloride on concrete?


WHAT!!!!!....Sodium Chloride is SALT??....


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Hey Mark...Are you a 1 or a 2 or a 3 or a 4 on this Thread..Gotta Know


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

Bajak;942726 said:


> One thing I always try to achieve with outside concrete is have enough air entrapment for water to permeate through so it wont have time to freeze.


Why people insist on posting this drivel is beyond me.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Bajak;942880 said:


> Why people insist on posting this drivel is beyond me.


:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;942750 said:


> Quad release and you say you don't use sodium chloride?
> 
> As for sodium acetate, IIRC, doesn't that turn snow\ice into a slushy mess that needs to be mechanically removed?


i have not had a problem with either one of them in my area. i understand what you are saying about quad, but i still stand by not having issues with it. if you think something else would work better please feel free to teach. i'm up for anything that works smarter and not harder. it pays better.payup

an earlier posting by someone mentioned putting so much rock salt on it to eliminate the freeze / thaw all together?? seems like it would eliminate the need to be re-applied to me, which eliminates the job too. not a good idea to me.


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## dchr (May 9, 2009)

I have been following this thread with much interest-mainly for the entertainment value. I am definetely no expert-and I'm just a little guy compared to some on this site who have much larger companies,more clients,etc which = much more to lose than I do if they screw up and ruin someones sidewalk,drive what have you. I have been in the snow business since 1986 and have been involved since 1976 riding along with my dad. The only damage to ANY surface that was treated with salt was caused by a bad surface to start with (installation/material etc). I can remember riding in the back of the old mans scout DUMPING straight salt out of a 5 gallon bucket onto driveways as he was plowing them (days before he had a sander/spreader obviously). The sidwalks that got plowed or shoveled got the same treatment (part of which was I was pissed that I had to do it and figured the faster we ran out of salt the sooner I could stop salting and drive the truck). 
Anyway-call me stupid,ignorant,feeble minded-whatever you like it's pretty d**n simple-salt does not hurt concrete. Thanks for letting me spew--rant over. Continue on-this is really entertaining.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Matson Snow;942860 said:


> Hey Mark...Are you a 1 or a 2 or a 3 or a 4 on this Thread..Gotta Know


69 :laughing:


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;943522 said:


> 69 :laughing:


More fuzzy math?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

dchr;943018 said:


> I have been following this thread with much interest-mainly for the entertainment value. I am definetely no expert-and I'm just a little guy compared to some on this site who have much larger companies,more clients,etc which = much more to lose than I do if they screw up and ruin someones sidewalk,drive what have you. I have been in the snow business since 1986 and have been involved since 1976 riding along with my dad. The only damage to ANY surface that was treated with salt was caused by a bad surface to start with (installation/material etc). I can remember riding in the back of the old mans scout DUMPING straight salt out of a 5 gallon bucket onto driveways as he was plowing them (days before he had a sander/spreader obviously). The sidwalks that got plowed or shoveled got the same treatment (part of which was I was pissed that I had to do it and figured the faster we ran out of salt the sooner I could stop salting and drive the truck).
> Anyway-call me stupid,ignorant,feeble minded-whatever you like it's pretty d**n simple-salt does not hurt concrete. Thanks for letting me spew--rant over. Continue on-this is really entertaining.


Nice rant, I like it.

And agree, since the whole salt harms concrete is flat out BS that as soon as you point out facts the naysayers disappear.


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

I'm not going to argue that with you Mark, but what the studies show is actually _less_ damage with straight salt. They don't _technically_ say no damage, but I digress.

As I said, I always use straight salt unless the customer specified that they wanted something different. I did find this article an interesting read nevertheless and will pass it on to others whenever I can. 
http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/9000/9500/9557/Lee.pdf


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JohnnyU;944044 said:


> I'm not going to argue that with you Mark, but what the studies show is actually _less_ damage with straight salt. They don't _technically_ say no damage, but I digress.
> 
> As I said, I always use straight salt unless the customer specified that they wanted something different. I did find this article an interesting read nevertheless and will pass it on to others whenever I can.
> http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/9000/9500/9557/Lee.pdf


You know, I was thinking about it as I typed it, but I was really hoping there wouldn't be any #2's in this thread. :laughing:

But you are correct, sodium is the LEAST damaging of the 3 chlorides.

See, I'm a big girl, I admit it when I'm wrong.

PS I haven't read the link yet, but wasn't the problem with sodium that it actually got to the rebar and caused problems with that while mag and calcium actually chemically damage concrete?


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

Mark Oomkes;944077 said:


> PS I haven't read the link yet, but wasn't the problem with sodium that it actually got to the rebar and caused problems with that while mag and calcium actually chemically damage concrete?


I think that's the general concensus, however the article disclaimed that there was really no long-term analysis done. That would almost fall more into your agument about the concrete being properly installed and finished, wouldn't it? If the rebar/mesh were slushed into the slab the concrete would 'seal' around it, wouldn't it?

At any rate, I will admit that I learned something from this debate, however I still think the general public believes that "de-icer" is safter for use on concrete than "salt" is. 

Oh, #2? Ouch, I'm hurt. I try to be more of a #3, but somtimes I just have to stir the pot a little bit....:laughing:


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;944077 said:


> But you are correct, sodium is the LEAST damaging of the 3 chlorides.


so then mark would it be safe to say then, my use of "quad", why it may not be the best product available, likely uses the least damaging ingredients and that could be why i have not had any issues with it? i'm not tying to be smart about it, but my comment of not having issues with it are true, and not having used much of anything but rock salt to compare it to i still have to stand by it for my usage.

as a side note i missed it earlier in the post about the air in concrete disappearing? they were right it is added to the mix when loaded, but my point is that interior slab mixes are 0-2% air, garages are generally 3%, and all exterior should be 6%, and DOTs use 6.5%. the problems with staining we have found have been mainly in housing additions were the contractor has used left over slab mix with little to no air to pour house or city walk. That has been the problem we have found with rock salt and concrete. but i will also admit we have run into similar problems with "quad" but not as much and the damage (staining) has been considerably less. just thought i might clear up what i was getting at before.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

JohnnyU;944044 said:


> I'm not going to argue that with you Mark, but what the studies show is actually _less_ damage with straight salt. They don't _technically_ say no damage, but I digress.
> 
> As I said, I always use straight salt unless the customer specified that they wanted something different. I did find this article an interesting read nevertheless and will pass it on to others whenever I can.
> http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/9000/9500/9557/Lee.pdf


*Johnny, I've posted it before, but here's the "cliff notes" version of the studies in the link you posted. If you really find that link interesting, you may also be the kind of guy that enjoys reading the back of a shampoo bottle*! 

http://www.cement.org/tech/faq_deicers.asp



Mark Oomkes;944077 said:


> You know, I was thinking about it as I typed it, but I was really hoping there wouldn't be any #2's in this thread.
> 
> But you are correct, sodium is the LEAST damaging of the 3 chlorides.
> 
> ...





JohnnyU;944120 said:


> I think that's the general concensus, however the article disclaimed that there was really no long-term analysis done. That would almost fall more into your agument about the concrete being properly installed and finished, wouldn't it? If the rebar/mesh were slushed into the slab the concrete would 'seal' around it, wouldn't it?
> 
> *Your right Johnny, at least in the typical real world application. There has to be enough Oxygen present, along with a few other elements, to realistically corrode the steel away. Don't get me wrong, it does happen, especially at control joints & in the public sector, but it's not a big concern on the private prpoerty end IMO. As a matter of fact, most steel we see in old 30-50 YO concrete we tear out is less corroded than the steel we're re-installing with. That's a whole 'nother topic though.*
> 
> ...


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

smokin4by;944178 said:


> so then mark would it be safe to say then, my use of "quad", why it may not be the best product available, likely uses the least damaging ingredients and that could be why i have not had any issues with it? i'm not tying to be smart about it, but my comment of not having issues with it are true, and not having used much of anything but rock salt to compare it to i still have to stand by it for my usage.
> 
> *Maybe Mark has a different idea or opinion, but you may be better off using either a bagged product that's mostly Rock with some Cal Chl mixed in, or simply mixing it yourself. If you read alot hear, you'll see alot of "bigger" contractors talk about doing this by pre-wetting at the spinner on there large spreaders. What that means is they're usually using a Cal Chl liquid brine (some make there own, some buy it) or other liquid to enhance the Rock salts effectiveness. You can do the same thing on a smaller level with liquid or flake Cal, as well as other products. The reason I list Cal is because it's been proven to both work well & creates little to no ill effects on GOOD concrete.
> 
> ...


I'm suprised guys still pour interior residential floors w/o full air. Very rare around here as far as I know. The air can cut hours out of the finishing end of a basement floor, easily re-couping the little money it costs. The only time we pour a floor w/o air is when it's commercial/industrial & clearly called for in the plans.

Regardless, those sidewalks you mentioned with 0-3% air were bound to fail anyways, you just simply sped up the inevitable.


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

you right about those walks with 0-3% air born to fail, but the problem is the concrete supplier and contractor only have to warranty it for 1 year. then we come along and provide a service and we end up getting stuck with damage bills years later.


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## JohnnyU (Nov 21, 2002)

jomama45;944252 said:


> *Johnny, I've posted it before, but here's the "cliff notes" version of the studies in the link you posted. If you really find that link interesting, you may also be the kind of guy that enjoys reading the back of a shampoo bottle*!
> 
> http://www.cement.org/tech/faq_deicers.asp


I'm not usually one to read the back of a shampoo bottle, but I do try to read through the phone book once or twice a month just to make sure I know everyone. :laughing:

It was an interesting study that is somewhat pertinent to this industry. It was a short read at that, only 5 pages. You should see some of the documents that come across my desk at work....


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## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

Mark Oomkes;942750 said:


> You are crapping me right?
> 
> Quad release and you say you don't use sodium chloride? Have you looked at the MSDS?
> 
> ...


And what is amazing is the amount of this stuff people buy - at two to three times the amount per bad as sodium, thinking that it is some sort of super duper ice cutting formulation.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

jomama45;944266 said:


> I'm suprised guys still pour interior residential floors w/o full air. Very rare around here as far as I know. The air can cut hours out of the finishing end of a basement floor, easily re-couping the little money it costs. The only time we pour a floor w/o air is when it's commercial/industrial & clearly called for in the plans.
> 
> Regardless, those sidewalks you mentioned with 0-3% air were bound to fail anyways, you just simply sped up the inevitable.


No to get to0 far off subject here, but to answer your question about full air on interior resi floors......the finishing qualities are much better w/o full air (lessens the peeling effect while finishing), unless you are pouring on some kind of moisture barrier (which IMO most should have) then full air is used to reduce the "bleeding". This is ecspecially true when finishing to a real hard state or "burning" a floor in.

Anyway, this subject gets brought up so much but the reading never gets old or boring:laughing: Fun stuff.

FWIW, I salt my own driveway (didnt pour it, guessing its 10 yrs old) & sidewalk (i did pour this & its stamped) and havent had any problems.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

snocrete;944497 said:


> FWIW, I salt my own driveway (didnt pour it, guessing its 10 yrs old) & sidewalk (i did pour this & its stamped) and havent had any problems.


Yeah, but do you use salt, sodium chloride or deicers? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Mark Oomkes;944528 said:


> Yeah, but do you use salt, sodium chloride or deicers? :laughing::laughing::laughing:


Mostly salt, but when its real cold i use a blow torch:yow!:


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

JohnnyU;944331 said:


> I'm not usually one to read the back of a shampoo bottle, but I do try to read through the phone book once or twice a month just to make sure I know everyone.
> 
> It was an interesting study that is somewhat pertinent to this industry. It was a short read at that, *only 5 pages*. You should see some of the documents that come across my desk at work....


Your much better than me than Johnny, I can't seem to be able to read more than a page or 2 w/o some kind of images. 



snocrete;944497 said:


> No to get to0 far off subject here, but to answer your question about full air on interior resi floors......the finishing qualities are much better w/o full air (lessens the peeling effect while finishing), unless you are pouring on some kind of moisture barrier (which IMO most should have) then full air is used to reduce the "bleeding". This is ecspecially true when finishing to a real hard state or "burning" a floor in.
> 
> *We're always using VB on basement floors (code) & often times in garage floors & sheds, etc.. Even when not using VB in a garage, we still run air, but we machine finish most of them, as well as theres tons of variables between the concrete mixes we're both using. We actually used to be able to get a "double air" mix from one of our RM suppliers. That just plained sucked! *
> 
> ...


Sno, I have 2 trains of thought on stamped concrete & de-icers:

One tells me that they should be far more resistant to damage because of the superb sealers required (if kept up with) as well as the surface should be far denser due to the hardeners/release/stamp pressure applied.

The other thought is that it's risky due to the additional value of the flatwork.

Thoughts/experiences anyone?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

jomama45;944671 said:


> (if kept up with)


Bingo!!!!!!!!!!


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

jomama45;944671 said:


> One tells me that they should be far more resistant to damage because of the superb sealers required (if kept up with) as well as the surface should be far denser due to the hardeners/release/stamp pressure applied.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I agree with all of this. Properly sealing & resealing is an easy/inexpensive way to protect concrete and keep it looking good for a long time.
> ...


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

snocrete;944883 said:


> I don't think I would necessarily call his BIG DELETE BUTTONnew :laughing:


You must have missed the one I posted in a thread that got DELETED. :yow!:


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## deere615 (Jun 1, 2007)

Ok figured I would through my thoughts around I have always understood that pavers are less likely to recieve damage from salt thats why pavers are more popular up north. Also I would think an 800-1000 pound plow will be more likely to cause damage to concrete/asphault then salt


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

WIPensFan;942313 said:


> That's a picture of the DOT pile!! I wanna see a pic of TCLA holding a piece of mail with his name on it wearing a shirt with the letters TCLA embroidered across the front while standing on a loader with the letters TCLA painted across the side!! Then I'll believe it's his pile, and only then. :laughing:


WOW, your asking him to go though a bunch of hassel just to prove its his salt pile !


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Superior L & L;945251 said:


> WOW, your asking him to go though a bunch of hassel just to prove its his salt pile !


He's ok Paul......he's just continuing the smack-down since we lost the cup to golden boy. :realmad:


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Superior L & L;945251 said:


> WOW, your asking him to go though a bunch of hassel just to prove its his salt pile !


Just trying to lighten up a rather serious and borderline violent salt debate over the last few days.

TCLA, where are my pics of that paver pad!! :angry: BTW, nothing like having the Atlanta Thrashers come to town to solve a losing streak. :laughing:


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

WIPensFan;945908 said:


> Just trying to lighten up a rather serious and borderline violent salt debate over the last few days.
> 
> TCLA, where are my pics of that paver pad!! :angry:
> 
> ...


Ohhh the pain.........nothing like having the last place Mighty Ducks continue our sadness. :realmad:


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

cretebaby;944682 said:


> Bingo!!!!!!!!!!


I'm actually a terrible salesperson, but for some reason "selling" customers on re-sealing deco crete work is easy. Probably because of the additional original investment, generally a "pickier" customer, the HUGE enhancement the right sealer can make on a worn stamped surface, etc... I've actually slowly been thinking of offering some form of sealing program to past customers now that our biz has slowed slightly.

[QUOTE

Did I say that I salt my stamped concrete?[/QUOTE]

I don't think you're crazy to do this. I'm just curious as to the results, or is this the first year. Actually, performing both concrete & snow contracting, it seems like your own stamped walk is the PERFECT candidate to experiment on. After reading yesterday here, I decided to throw some de-icer mix on some unsealed (OOPS) stamped concrete at my shop. We'll see what happens!


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## smokin4by (Dec 21, 2009)

jomama45;946129 said:


> I don't think you're crazy to do this. I'm just curious as to the results, or is this the first year. Actually, performing both concrete & snow contracting, it seems like your own stamped walk is the PERFECT candidate to experiment on. After reading yesterday here, I decided to throw some de-icer mix on some unsealed (OOPS) stamped concrete at my shop. We'll see what happens!


sounded like a plan to me too. so i took half my personal drive and coated with rock salt, and the other half with "concrete safe" ice meter. its been 24 hr and we got a dusting last night. both sides look the same as of now, but its also been less than 15* since. niether kept the dusting from sticking, but there is no ice on eather half.

i guess i will see how it works out with 5" or so tonight


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## Bajak (Nov 12, 2008)

jomama45;946129 said:


> [QUOTE
> 
> Did I say that I salt my stamped concrete?


[/QUOTE]

I don't think you're crazy to do this. I'm just curious as to the results, or is this the first year. Actually, performing both concrete & snow contracting, it seems like your own stamped walk is the PERFECT candidate to experiment on. After reading yesterday here, I decided to throw some de-icer mix on some unsealed (OOPS) stamped concrete at my shop. We'll see what happens![/QUOTE]

The jury is still out as far as I'm concerned with respect to having concrete sealed. I think it is more of a personal preference. I have done decorative concrete both sealed and unsealed. I do like the sheen of sealed concrete. It just looks "higher end" quality and it is easier to clean off those oil drips.:crying:

At one company I worked for, we did a job for Canada Trust (Canadian Bank) back in '93. Coloured, stamped and some other fancy finishes. The specifications stated No Sealers. The area was mostly pedestrian traffic with a single lane one way street, all concrete. The inspector said they didn't want it sealed because the side walks had to be a non slip finish (building code) and the engineer was not convinced that the salt would not cause "aesthetically unappealing" damage. Last time I was in that area was around '01 and it still looked excellent. Just a little rub off from the snow plows. Likely another reason why no sealers.

I've worked with many different concrete companies and no two of them do things the same way or use the same products unless the forman/owner of the crew came from and was taught by one of the other companies.

I think the effects of de-icers on different sealers used on concrete could be another topic for debate. For now I'll just play it safe.


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