# 10 Acre Push, Strategy?



## Patrick34 (Feb 8, 2004)

Currently bidding on a 10 acre property. Property is pretty straight forward with one big exception: all snow must be relocated to a specific side of the property. Property manager indicated they use every parking space available on certain days, therefor no snow piles in the parking lot or perimeter. All snow to be re-located to side of property (see picture with red X). I am not entirely sure how to handle this. Property manager thought the prior service was using 1 loader with a snow pusher and just pushing all snow to the designated pile area. I cannot see how 1 loader could get his done in a reasonable amount of time. I am thinking at least 2 loaders, plus a large dump truck to haul snow from one area of the property to the designated snow pile area.

Anyone have any suggestions or comments?? Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

We have a similiar site to that but it's 7 acres and we push it all with a 12ft pusher. If he wants it all done in one night you'll need to have to have something in there to help you. The loader could concentrate on pushing while a pickup or skid feeds it. I think 2 loaders would be better but I doubt they'll pay for 2 loaders. I would also ask if you can pile snow for 24 hrs for early morning snow falls and then push it the next night. IMO pushing it will be the cheapest way if you own the loader. Hauling it gets expensive even if you own the trucks.


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## capitalsnow (Mar 14, 2010)

I have done a similar lot out up this way , one option, if its okay with the property manager, is to pile in the back corner of the lot, get a snow bucket on your loader, and move the snow to dumb bucket by bucket the night after the storm, if you dont have access to dump truck, its time consuming, but you would be surprised how quick you can move a pile of snow with the right sized loader. Time wise IMO that lot is only 3.5hr on a average snow fall, DEPENDING wether or not your pushing all the way to snow dump.


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Why cant you utilize the Green belts on the outer perimeter of the lot for snow piling???...If you have to put all the snow from that lot in the spot with the X...Thats gonna be costly......From that back lot to the snow piling area is a LONG push...Are they willing to pay for all this...You are talking alot of machine hours....


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

capitalsnow;1083542 said:


> I have done a similar lot out up this way , one option, if its okay with the property manager, is to pile in the back corner of the lot, get a snow bucket on your loader, and move the snow to dumb bucket by bucket the night after the storm, if you dont have access to dump truck, its time consuming, but you would be surprised how quick you can move a pile of snow with the right sized loader. Time wise IMO that lot *is only 3.5hr on a average snow fall*, DEPENDING wether or not your pushing all the way to snow dump.


3.5 hours with what size and type of equipment....


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## capitalsnow (Mar 14, 2010)

7430 john deere with blade, and 996h with 14ft pusher..... that estimate is for piling in the lot, not pushing to the snow dump.


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## Patrick34 (Feb 8, 2004)

For the guys who have commented, I appeciate the feedback. The property manager has very specific instructions, no snow piled in any of the turf areas around the perimeter. All snow must go in the designated area. This would either call for a very long push from certain areas, or transporting snow piles with dump trucks... 

Appreciate any other feedback, thank you.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Patrick34;1083605 said:


> For the guys who have commented, I appeciate the feedback. The property manager has very specific instructions, no snow piled in any of the turf areas around the perimeter. All snow must go in the designated area. This would either call for a very long push from certain areas, or transporting snow piles with dump trucks...
> 
> Appreciate any other feedback, thank you.


Seriously! At least you didn't ask how much,lol
This will be my first season doing big,big lots and our biggest lot is half the size of that monster, but Ive been doing this since 2003. My thoughts....I'm thinking 2 pieces of heavy equipment and maybe 1 truck to cut out areas. Maybe have 1 loader push to a waiting loader to move it back to the designated dumping area and then tag team the smaller lot with both loaders.


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## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

Wow, What a project ! That just doesn't seam possible to push all that way. At least the far lot would need to be trucked over to the dump site. Not an expert on this stuff but that's a lot of material to haul even if it's just 4/5 of the acres. Id probably have two trucks hauling to save on cycle time


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## 04chevy2500 (Oct 7, 2009)

if you are set on hauling the snow then think about looking at a hook lift truck. you can have two bodies so that the loader is filling one body on the ground while the truck dumps the other. drive back drop the empty and pick up the full one and repeat.


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

04chevy2500;1083715 said:


> if you are set on hauling the snow then think about looking at a hook lift truck. you can have two bodies so that the loader is filling one body on the ground while the truck dumps the other. drive back drop the empty and pick up the full one and repeat.


If the truck is close to the pile , I've seen the loader load the truck faster than the truck driver can unhook and hook the new box. I don't do this scale of work, but judging the space to be cleared vs. the dumping area, I'd be concerned that the dump site might not be large enough for a seasons worth of storage. If thats the case do you have a stipulation for storage or removal offsite?


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

plowatnight;1083787 said:


> If the truck is close to the pile , I've seen the loader load the truck faster than the truck driver can unhook and hook the new box. I don't do this scale of work, but judging the space to be cleared vs. the dumping area, I'd be concerned that the dump site might not be large enough for a seasons worth of storage. If thats the case do you have a stipulation for storage or removal offsite?


x2, really not sure there is enough storage, even if there is, im thinking one loader, the loader starts in the far lot, piles things up, then the dump truck and skid come in, start hauling, while the loader starts to do the closer lots, and the loader can push directly into the the snow storrage area


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

SInce you have to have it all moved at once, one loader with a pusher and one loader loading out the piles. you never want to have just one truck when loading out snow. Lots of wasted time waiting for the truck turn around time. Also, you'll need to push back piles with one of the loaders at the dump site.
Wouldn't hurt to have a skid loader to help square thing up and detail stuff.
A good job is never cheap. Why are they seeking bids? Problem with price? Cold call bid?


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## 04chevy2500 (Oct 7, 2009)

would you be able to have a blower on the skid so that after you haul the snow to the dump site you could blow it further back into the field? seems like no matter what you do your going to be handling the material multiple times.


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## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

Those islands are going to be your obstacle


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

I think you would need a loader and two dump trucks on each half of that lot as well as a pickup or two for clean-up. I'm just thinking if it quits snowing at 2:00am - 4:00am you have to be well on your way to being done by 5:30am - 6:00am. Those kinds of large businesses usually have people showing up for work from 6:00am - 9:00am. When cars start to show up and park in your way...Nightmare!

It's funny the property manager doesn't know how it was done in the past.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

04chevy2500;1083859 said:


> would you be able to have a blower on the skid so that after you haul the snow to the dump site you could blow it further back into the field? seems like no matter what you do your going to be handling the material multiple times.


There is no way a SS can handle blowing back 10 acres of piled snow each time.

I have looked at that site for a while now, and its a real PITA. You have some very long pushes, and not even straight. A loader will drop down to 1st gear and take up to 5 minutes to push to that designated area, and be back in place for another push. Most of your snow will have to be pushed along that one road that runs right in front of the main doors. Keeping that place open during the day becomes a real nightmare. 
For 2 inch snow falls it can be done just pushing to the designated site. On larger storms the most efficient way IMO is to push snow to the ends and then fill trucks and transport to the designated site. I would fill the trucks with a snow blower allowing you to transport more snow per load. You will need that blower after to blow back the dumped snow. Its major storms a place like that becomes very time consuming.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

thoughts..... with both building entrances having the covered drop off areas the loader definitely won't fit so a pickup is necessary, also lots of nooks to clean out so maybe even two to keep things moving. make sure you don't get too wide of a push box on the loader, looks to be some tight areas.

1 loader, 1 backhoe, 2 pickups. the pickups get the nooks and tight spots, the backhoe cleans the open spaces and the loader puts it all in the back.

is this a wedding/reception place?


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

I have seen this property being done with a couple machines setup like this except bigger.

http://www.avalancheplow.com/products_agri_tractor.php

All the snow is taken into the area marked with an x and piled with a big a$$ loader.


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

2 Loaders, 2-3 dumps, depending on size, and a plow truck to help cleanup and feed the loaders. Pushing all the way with a wet heavy snow will take forever............Better to follow Neiges advice and push to the ends and load out, obviously the goal is to have a truck pulling into the load zome as the other is pulling out, you might have to play with the number of trucks a bit to get it down to the most efficient number. Bad to have the loader wating to load, or trucks to get loaded.......the challenge I see is making sure nobody sits idling..........


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## 04chevy2500 (Oct 7, 2009)

no matter what happens its going to be one hell of an expense for the building owner. i wish you luck.


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

i'd have at least 4 loaders w/14-16' pushers on em, 1 pickup/blade, at least 1 skiddy cleaning out corners, sidewalks.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

(new style) Loader 4 yard (40 000lbs+) with QA. 14 ft pusher and 8 yard snow bucket. Ag tractor or Backhoe support with 12 ft pusher or snow wing. Bail into piles (about 2-3 hours work then use loader and large snow bucket to dolly snow like a wheel barrow into the storage area. Total time about 2-3 hours to plow and 2- 3 hours more to bail to storage on a 4-5 inch storm. USE green belt for storage as much as possible to save time (if available). JMHO


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

dayexco;1083916 said:


> i'd have at least 4 loaders w/14-16' pushers on em, 1 pickup/blade, at least 1 skiddy cleaning out corners, sidewalks.


A high quality loader/operator pusher combo with plow more then 3 acres an hour in an open area. Closer to 5 if the right attatchments are utilized. Your math doesn't add up very well.


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## 04chevy2500 (Oct 7, 2009)

DellDoug;1083955 said:


> (new style) Loader 4 yard (40 000lbs+) with QA. 14 ft pusher and 8 yard snow bucket. Ag tractor or Backhoe support with 12 ft pusher or snow wing. Bail into piles (about 2-3 hours work then use loader and large snow bucket to dolly snow like a wheel barrow into the storage area. Total time about 2-3 hours to plow and 2- 3 hours more to bail to storage on a 4-5 inch storm. USE green belt for storage as much as possible to save time (if available). JMHO


what is green belt?

you think it would be faster to use the bucket than to just have a large grain dump body?


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

04chevy2500;1083963 said:


> what is green belt?
> 
> you think it would be faster to use the bucket than to just have a large grain dump body?


Any grass area you can find and save time by making some not too huge piiles on it. Bucket isn't faster...its cheaper and makes more money. Still charge for the trucks but keep the cash? lower cost means lower price = win project and make money also gives you the contractor full control. no waiting for trucks or anybody. just do the job and go home. .


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## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Heres the Million Dollar Question.....Are they willing to pay for all this.....That alot of $$$ to do any of the suggestion that have been put forward...Keep us posted...


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

DellDoug;1083958 said:


> A high quality loader/operator pusher combo with plow more then 3 acres an hour in an open area. Closer to 5 if the right attatchments are utilized. Your math doesn't add up very well.


my math is just fine, if i have 6-7 properties like this to do in an evening, it quits snowing at 1 a.m....they want the lots by 6 a.m....my math works VERY well.


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## Patrick34 (Feb 8, 2004)

*Loaders*

Thanks for the replies guys. I am putting the proposal together today. I am going to price this out utilizing 3 mid-size loaders (2 for plowing, 1 for continous loading dump truck), as well as 1 skid loader for all the detail work. Also add in of course dump truck hauling, salt, labor, etc.


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## DellDoug (Aug 18, 2009)

dayexco;1083998 said:


> my math is just fine, if i have 6-7 properties like this to do in an evening, it quits snowing at 1 a.m....they want the lots by 6 a.m....my math works VERY well.


Cool! Glad you have it all figured out.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

DellDoug;1083955 said:


> (new style) Loader 4 yard (40 000lbs+) with QA. 14 ft pusher and 8 yard snow bucket. Ag tractor or Backhoe support with 12 ft pusher or snow wing. Bail into piles (about 2-3 hours work then use loader and large snow bucket to dolly snow like a wheel barrow into the storage area. Total time about 2-3 hours to plow and 2- 3 hours more to bail to storage on a 4-5 inch storm. USE green belt for storage as much as possible to save time (if available). JMHO


I like Dougs idea the best.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Patrick34;1083999 said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. I am putting the proposal together today. I am going to price this out utilizing 3 mid-size loaders (2 for plowing, 1 for continous loading dump truck), as well as 1 skid loader for all the detail work. Also add in of course dump truck hauling, salt, labor, etc.


Now that we have all told you how to clear a 10 acre lot, any other questions?


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Are you contiunely plowing this lot? If so, and if u have 6 hours or more...1 loader 2 skids. 

If she gives you less than 4 hours..add a large dump and a blower for the loader


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Add one plow truck to what you stated and you'll be in good shape there, no matter what.

Hard to believe they will only give you that one spot...that's quite unnecessary. They are increasing their costs considerably.

Good luck to you Pat, I hope you get it. :salute:

If you don't....keep an eye out on it this winter. Had the same thing told to me once and come to find out the successful contractor was doing nothing of the sort. Piles everywhere, all year long.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Really, for anyone that mentions a blower (large loader type) why? other than Neige (paul) who else own's a blower big enough to blow back piles? While I do own one, a big wheel loader will still push back piles faster than a blower.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

blowerman;1084291 said:


> Really, for anyone that mentions a blower (large loader type) why? other than Neige (paul) who else own's a blower big enough to blow back piles? While I do own one, a big wheel loader will still push back piles faster than a blower.


ANSWER --

if the lady truely is correct and they need every spot in the lot...how in the heck are you going to have room to manover a large loader and large dump truck with cars in the lot? blowers a pita too, but i couldnt see loading every sq inch of parking lot into the back of a dump truck to haul it over to that dump site with just using 1 loader, 1 dump, and a heck of alot of cars to hit.

we all know what happens, you go to scoop up a pile and after 1-2 attemps (unless your not filling the bucket) the pile seems to spread out, then it gets closer to cars...then it has to be repiled...and how and where do you get the dump truck in the same drive lane?and have the room to swing over it to dump? yeah i know it can be done....but is it safe, is it productive? i dont have enough time on a big (5 yard plus) loader to answer that....those are just my feelings on it

in fact depending on if you own the loader, it might be better to have two dumps ready so the loader isnt sitting still between dump runs...i know its just th eother side of the lot, but that 90 seconds round trip , when its really coming down feels like forever.

loader with a pusher would be fine, if it started up with the first flake and ran till its done snowing. in that case provided he wasnt pushing more than .5 -1 inch max of snow a 16-18 foot box on a loader would carry a good distance before filling up. have skidders push it into the drive lanes


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

Iwas thinking 3 loaders (2 16' pushers, one bucket) 4 or 5 dump trucks. And kick in the Nuts for the idiot that laid out the lot.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

plowatnight;1084315 said:


> Iwas thinking 3 loaders (2 16' pushers, one bucket) 4 or 5 dump trucks. *And kick in the Nuts for the idiot that laid out the lot.*


ill throw mine up there too

who designs these things


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

plowatnight;1084315 said:


> Iwas thinking 3 loaders (2 16' pushers, one bucket) 4 or 5 dump trucks. And kick in the Nuts for the idiot that laid out the lot.


The lot is fine, it's the stipulation that no snow can be piled in the green spaces that makes it a cluster F.


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## john1066 (Jan 1, 2009)

Use a 4 or 5 yard loader 1 skid steer 2 pickups and get your hands on an articulated dump truck then you can pretty much back into the dump area and get the snow back as far as possible. if you own a small dozer put it in there to push the snow up or use and excavator but you need to have guys who all work well together to make it work


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## plowatnight (Mar 10, 2010)

WIPensFan;1084341 said:


> The lot is fine, it's the stipulation that no snow can be piled in the green spaces that makes it a cluster F.


True, But, are all o those little stub islands with trees necessary???? That stuff is great in TX or FL or AZ etc. but up here, All I can say is if you put it in fine, but shut the F#@% UP about the bill and say "Thank You very Much ...Sir."


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

plowatnight;1084455 said:


> True, But, are all o those little stub islands with trees necessary???? That stuff is great in TX or FL or AZ etc. but up here, All I can say is if you put it in fine, but shut the F#@% UP about the bill and say "Thank You very Much ...Sir."


Around here the plants are required based on how many parking stalls you install. Usually works out to way to many plants in the way for snow removal! I guess it makes them plant some things, otherwise they would never do it.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

I did a large landscape job for a property on a highway

The rules were. Xx%. (I think 24%??) of the total property had to be " green space". Then for ever xyz parking spots (2.5????) there had to be a 3 inch tree. So here's what happens, they design the building, then figure out how many spots they think they need a lot with a sic parking lot layout, with enterances..... Then they figure the green space last....if they don't meet the sq footage...rather than redesigning the parking lot, they add islands. There isn't a lot you van do to change parking sq footage...a basic spot is LxW. And a drive lane is WxL. You typically can't just srink them down for the heck of it. Besides. "drawing the island is cheaper than redesigning the lot, and sewer for the lot".. Then they have to figure out places to put the trees. Honestly it got tuff with over 200 parking spots, I almost ran out of room for all the trees. Now this was for road frontage, so there were more regulations for this property than others


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## Patrick34 (Feb 8, 2004)

*Update*

Thanks again for all the feedback. I met with the property manager today, and submitted my proposal. Bids are due next week, management will have a decision by the end of October.

FYI, this property is a very nice church / day care / school center. The interior of the property is extremely nice (church, stores, day care, classes, gym, offices, etc.). During the week, the parking lot is approximately 1/2 full. From Friday to Sunday, the parking lot is 100% full, they also bus people in during weekend service as the lot gets 100% full. The perimeter turf areas around the lot, many places slope down towards the parking lot, thus causing melt / refreeze onto the parking lot: thus the reason for all snow to be relocated.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

Patrick34;1084509 said:


> Thanks again for all the feedback. I met with the property manager today, and submitted my proposal. Bids are due next week, management will have a decision by the end of October.
> 
> FYI, this property is a very nice church / day care / school center. The interior of the property is extremely nice (church, stores, day care, classes, gym, offices, etc.). During the week, the parking lot is approximately 1/2 full. From Friday to Sunday, the parking lot is 100% full, they also bus people in during weekend service as the lot gets 100% full. The perimeter turf areas around the lot, many places slope down towards the parking lot, thus causing melt / refreeze onto the parking lot: thus the reason for all snow to be relocated.


thank you for the info, AFTER you hear back yay or nay would you mind letting us know how you bid it (no $ #'s of course.)


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