# I could use more help from you nice gentleman



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

I am meeting a contractor at a truck stop. Need help on things to look for and ask while giving him a bid. I really don’t know where to start. I do Know him pretty well and my whole family knows him. Good guy and has lots of work. I told him I have a FT job and he had me send him my schedule.

I also called a realtor, and he gave me an address to go check on. 2 driveways. And said when I call him back he might have more for me to do.
I get it I need to know “my costs”. Insurance, Fuel, equipment, wear and tear. What else am I missing in costs? Don’t think I’m salting at this lot, but don’t want to rule that out for future calls. Could you all be so kind to help with other essentials in bidding. Like questions to ask. Probably need to look at where to put snow. Measure the area and calculate the time it will take maybe?

I have a 7.5’ western ultra mount on a 2017 gmc Sierra 1500.

I have my eyes on a ram 2500 with a v-plow. I would actually be able to lower my current truck payment. I Would only End up keeping one truck.

I know this post is kind of all over, just looking for some input and advice from guys that have been doing this and making money from plowing snow.
Thank you!!


----------



## gcbailey (Jan 26, 2014)

Are you bidding a truck stop or meeting him at one? I couldn't really imagine trying to do a truck stop with a 7.5' plow or at least being profitable. 

If possible I wouldn't get rid of your GMC, I'd keep it as a backup. One is none type of mantra....


----------



## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

I was just a driver, never did the business side of things. But a few additional things off the top of my head before the real pros show up include: what is the trigger, seasonal or per push, any shoveling needed, you already mentioned salt and where you will push the snow to, what type of traffic will be there (that will impact the amount of time it will take as well as the risk), avg snow fall per event and per year. Edit to add: type of snow too, nice fluffy powder, wet cement or everything, that has big impact on time it will take. 

And as mentioned above, a truck stop may be a bit much to tackle with that truck and plow. Also, you should always have a contingency plan for breakdowns, they happen. So does someone hitting your truck and taking it out of service.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

7,5 plow
1/2 ton truck
A full time job
A truck stop
Don’t know numbers
Any word on insurance?
Experience 
= not ready to plow commercially.

jmo


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

I told the contractor my hours and what equipment I had. And this is the job he wants to meet me at and to discuss.
I have experience plowing. For a municipality in high dollar neighborhoods, so caution of damaging property is critical.



Hydromaster said:


> 7,5 plow
> 1/2 ton truck
> A full time job
> A truck stop
> ...



I am new at this I understand your skepticism. But I have to start somewhere.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Yes,
With experience plowing,
I don’t understand the 7.5 blade.
yes, everyone has to start someplace but it is best to start when you have your ducks in a row

Get a business license
get insurance
get equipment that’s capable of clearing the lot in a timely manner in the heavy snow.
And what happens when your( one) truck breaks down?

My other concern is it’s the beginning of December and he’s just looking for a contractor now ?

ps
Only you know your numbers.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

I’m assuming there will be more trucks than just mine at this site.

I 100% agree. I’m in over my head. Not ready. Starting this process way to late in the year.
Just trying to make things happen. I’m in a financial state to where if I don’t make a killing this year. I will at least get some experience in the commercial aspects and have a better go next year.


----------



## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

trod81 said:


> I’m assuming there will be more trucks than just mine at this site.


so you’re subbing for a contractor that has the lot?
If that’s the case, with the setup you have, you’d be worth about 60 bucks an hour with that setup.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

BossPlow2010 said:


> so you’re subbing for a contractor that has the lot?
> If that’s the case, with the setup you have, you’d be worth about 60 bucks an hour with that setup.


Ok. Thanks. what about a 2500 with boss vplow 8’ 2” per hour?


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

You will get More, 

but if you don’t know your numbers first you don’t know it how much your making or losing
you will still need a LLC and insurance.
Imhao.


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

trod81 said:


> I’m assuming there will be more trucks than just mine at this site.


That sounds like an assumption the size of the grand canyon


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Where is this 


BossPlow2010 said:


> so you’re subbing for a contractor that has the lot?
> If that’s the case, with the setup you have, you’d be worth about 60 bucks an hour with that setup.





trod81 said:


> Ok. Thanks. what about a 2500 with boss vplow 8’ 2” per hour?


$60 seems a bit low even with a 7'-6" plow.
Your current truck might be good for driveways. 
I'm assuming they're using a loader with pusher at the truck stop. Maybe he wants something smaller on site to get between trucks, clean up when they leave, etc?


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

cwren2472 said:


> That sounds like an assumption the size of the grand canyon


Hopefully it snows where you’re at so you can go do what you’re good at. Constructive criticism is not it lol


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

trod81 said:


> Hopefully it snows where you’re at so you can go do what you’re good at. Constructive criticism is not it lol


Ha! Shows what you know. I'm not good at anything.


----------



## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Is this a reputable company your subbing for?

Are you in fact subbing?


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

I'd be at $100 an hour. I don't care if it's a 8'2" with wings or a 7'6" without wings. 

The truck and plow are worth the same price as the other trucks and plows and you may only be there a couple hours if you've got several trucks running the site. 

Sounds like you can definitely handle it as you're basically being hired for the time and truck and the account specifics are not on you as they are the company owner who has the contract. You will be responsible for damage and certainly want to be insured on your own.

If you are salting, set your amount per bag or per ton, then make sure your employer agrees.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

dieselss said:


> Is this a reputable company your subbing for?
> 
> Are you in fact subbing?


Yes he is a reputable contractor. I used to shovel for him years ago. My brother still does work for him on a different site.


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

Get in there, start at $100 see what he tells you he pays the other guys and if you want to wiggle, wiggle. I personally would not.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

rippinryno said:


> I'd be at $100 an hour. I don't care if it's a 8'2" with wings or a 7'6" without wings.
> 
> The truck and plow are worth the same price as the other trucks and plows and you may only be there a couple hours if you've got several trucks running the site.
> 
> ...


if he’s a subcontractor he doesn’t have a employer.
The problem with the 7.5 plow is the lack of productivity as it can’t even plow a path wide enough for the truck.

A 8.2 plow with wings will be about 10.1 wide
It will move a lot more snow than straight 7.5.
Pay is usually based off of productivity.


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

Hydromaster said:


> if he’s a subcontractor he doesn’t have a employer.


A sub contractor is hired by a contractor. What if he just works for the one client? What if he is employed by an agency (maybe that's what his client is). In both of these cases they can be employees. For all we know he could become a part time employee or may be paid out that way. 

You call it whatever you want to.



Hydromaster said:


> The problem with the 7.5 plow is the lack of productivity as it can’t even power path white enough for the truck.


You realize they do have their place and can actually be MORE productive on any given lot. That's plow 101.



Hydromaster said:


> A 8.2 plow with wings will be about 10.1 wide
> It will move a lot more snow than straight 7.5.
> Pay is usually based off of productivity.


My 8.2" with wings is only more productive in wide open lots. Without the wings it's more productive in areas with vehicles, like truck stops, etc.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> if he’s a subcontractor he doesn’t have a employer.
> The problem with the 7.5 plow is the lack of productivity as it can’t even power path white enough for the truck.
> 
> A 8.2 plow with wings will be about 10.1 wide
> ...


And if its a v plow, wideout, etc he can contain more snow. 
No way is a 7'-6" straight blade anywhere near as productive.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

EWSplow said:


> And if its a v plow, wideout, etc he can contain more snow.
> No way is a 7'-6" straight blade anywhere near as productive.


Correct…..
Yes


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

EWSplow said:


> And if its a v plow, wideout, etc he can contain more snow.
> No way is a 7'-6" straight blade anywhere near as productive.


Crowded lots.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

rippinryno said:


> A sub contractor is hired by a contractor. What if he just works for the one client? What if he is employed by an agency (maybe that's what his client is). In both of these cases they can be employees. For all we know he could become a part time employee or may be paid out that way.
> 
> You call it whatever you want to.
> 
> ...


the IRS It’s very particular about what it is called.
the relationship between a contractor ,a client and the subcontractor or employees
He can’t be a contractor and a employee at the same time.





Topic No. 762 Independent Contractor vs. Employee | Internal Revenue Service


Topic No. 762 Independent Contractor vs. Employee




www.irs.gov




.

my (10.2) plow with wings is always more productive with them. Especially for removing snow between trucks or in “crowded lots”
As it’s more efficient.
Plowing 101


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

rippinryno said:


> Crowded lots.


Where is the snow going while pushing it in a crowded lot?

My jeep with a 6-6" v plow way more productive in many driveways and tight lots. It wouldn't come close to an 8-2 v plow with wings on lots with of more than 6 or so parking spots with normal driveways. It does shine on lots with narrow driveways and tight corners though.
Plowing 102.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

I’ll update you after my meeting with the contractor. Thanks for the help. I know I’m gonna get some realism to put me in my place, and that’s why I post here. 

I have also became sober as of late, so I am just looking for way to better my life and future for my family and children. If snowplowing ain’t it, then that’s that. 
That being said, buying the 2500 would help me tow larger machinery and do side jobs in the summer time. Right now I’m 17 mi for work each way so that would hurt the wallet a little bit. The truck stop is closer to my home then my FT job location.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

That’s great but if you’re doing this for yourself and your family then it’s best to know if you are employee or a subcontractor that will make a big difference in insurance and who is on the hook for a slip and fall.

Knowing your numbers will also make a big difference because there’s no sense wasting your time if you can make more money as a cashier at the truckstop.

You say you have a job? how or why your employer let you go so you can be available 24 seven to clear snow?


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

Hydromaster said:


> He can’t be a contractor and a employee at the same time.


Well that's wrong.

You can be a contractor and an employee at the same time. You can work for a single company that both hires the individual as an employee and hires as a sub. Are you not aware of this or just arguing to argue?



Hydromaster said:


> my (10.2) plow with wings is always more productive with them. Especially for removing snow between trucks or in “crowded lots”
> As it’s more efficient.
> Plowing 101


For you, awesome. I'm not getting 10'2" through many places in my lots. That's why I love wings, they're removable and the boss wings are quickly removable, so I am not stuck leaving some of the tighter lanes/areas snow covered. Believe it or not a couple feet of plow makes a difference when in tight parking lots. I'll take as much width as possible on the wide open areas but I take the wings off for the detail work and it saves me time.

I am guessing his job is flexible. That's how my FT job was when I first got into the game. They allowed me the time during storms.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

rippinryno said:


> Well that's wrong.
> 
> 
> You can be a contractor and an employee at the same time. You can work for a single company that both hires the individual as an employee and hires as a sub. Are you not aware of this or just arguing to argue?
> ...


and you would be wrong.
Take your time and read the IRS’s page on the subject and educate yourself.
as a contractor , I hire BillyBob’s plowing I did not hire an employee, I hired A contractor.
I didn’t hire Billybob he is not a employee, I will not put him on my Workmen’s Comp, I will not put him on my insurance, I will not give him tools or instruct him on how to do his job. I will not cook ham green eggs and ham…

just like if you were to hire AJ’s heating and cooling to come in and fix your furnace he is not your employee.

ps
And after I added wings, I was so efficient at cleaning out in tight corners and cleaning out snow in tight places with them, I welded them on.. got rid of a couple brackets, shed some weight and now they don’t wiggle.

I put them on an 8.2 boss Vee plow in scoop it’s was narrow enough To easily go through drive-through’s or through parking spots. I could contain the snow and remove all of it from in between the cars and not leave a berm on either side


----------



## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

trod81 said:


> Yes he is a reputable contractor. I used to shovel for him years ago. My brother still does work for him on a different site.


So HES got the contract for the lot?
I guess I'm not understanding this situation


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

dieselss said:


> So HES got the contract for the lot?
> I guess I'm not understanding this situation


Yes. He has the contract. He has several in the area.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

dieselss said:


> So HES got the contract for the lot?
> I guess I'm not understanding this situation


I think the contractor is looking for more plow jockeys with equipment so we can hire them as subs, 1099 them instead Taking on the costs of adding them as an employee.

And with a family friend there’s a good chance you’ll get work but I hope you guys discussed who’s insurance you’re gonna be covered by?
His, you could be a employee,,But without the proper paperwork, you giving him your license, info to his insurance co to be added To the policy you’re not covered.

on your own or you’ll be a writer on his insurance


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

That is why I made the post. To find points to talk to him about and questions to ask. 

thank you everyone.


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

Hydromaster said:


> and you would be wrong.
> Take your time and read the IRS’s page on the subject and educate yourself.


It happens all the time. I will give you an example and hopefully it will get through some of the denseness.

I did maintenance for 10 years for a company. The last 2 years I was there I got hired to do the snow removal as well. 

Not only was I a W-2 employee. But I was also a 1099 contractor. 

Take your time and read what I wrote on the subject and educate yourself. 

My example is just one of MANY that can occur. 
.



Hydromaster said:


> ps
> And after I added wings, I was so efficient at cleaning out in tight corners and cleaning out snow in tight places with them, I welded them on.. got rid of a couple brackets, shed some weight and now they don’t wiggle.
> 
> I put them on an 8.2 boss Vee plow in scoop it’s was narrow enough To easily go through drive-through’s or through parking spots. I could contain the snow and remove all of it from in between the cars and not leave a berm on either side



That is so good for you and your accounts. The fact is that tight spaces mean tight spaces. For me, a tight space is anything I can't get my plow with wings in. Maybe for you it's just a 10'2" + wide area that you consider "tight space". 

Unfortunately with a fair amount of my work, there is a difference in the 2ft plow width and wider is not always better.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> AJ’s heating and cooling to come in and fix your furnace


Wait a minute...


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

rippinryno said:


> It happens all the time. I will give you an example and hopefully it will get through some of the denseness.
> 
> I did maintenance for 10 years for a company. The last 2 years I was there I got hired to do the snow removal as well.
> 
> ...


again you would be wrong,
You should hire a accountant.

do yourself a favor and read what the
Authority on the subject has to say , the IRS
I gave the link, because you’re looking kind of foolish.

Ps
I don’t know if there’s that much time in all of those years to do all of those things…

pss

As the plow goes from straight to full scoop the width diminishes, sounds crazy but it does.
In that predicament if the plow doesn’t fit the truck isn’t going to either.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Could you guys have your pissing match elsewhere. Not helping my post.


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

Hydromaster said:


> again you would be wrong,
> You should hire a accountant.
> 
> do yourself a favor and read what the
> ...


Are you saying it is not possible to have a W-2 employee who also performs work as a 1099 independent contractor?


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

trod81 said:


> Could you guys have your pissing match elsewhere. Not helping my post.


Its like a holiday dinner or wedding in a large family...


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

trod81 said:


> Could you guys have your pissing match elsewhere. Not helping my post.


It’s something you also should take the time to read as you’re sticking your toe into the pool.

If you find yourself on the wrong side of the line or because of assumptions, to deal with it, it could cost you a lot of money, it could cost to your house, your truck and future earnings, so before you dismiss it you should take the time and read it.
Know the difference and when and what
Changes the relationship.

A lot of people quit one thing and try to replace it with something else and people think hey I’ve got a plow on the truck that’s easy money, I’ll just go plow snow.

Sorry I’m not blowing sunshine up your way but reality has to be Acknowledged at some point


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Hydromaster said:


> It’s something you also should take the time to read as you’re sticking your toe into the pool.
> 
> If you find yourself on the wrong side of the line or because of assumptions, to deal with it, it could cost you a lot of money, it could cost to your house, your truck and future earnings, so before you dismiss it you should take the time and read it.
> Know the difference and when and what
> ...


I again 100% agree with you. And I plan on reading said documents. And discussing all insurance liabilities with the contractor.
I was just referring to you and ryno. I would like to use this thread for reference and not have it too cluttered.
I learned the hard way that just having a plow doesn’t mean here’s a bunch of free money. Just like anything, takes hard work and effort to make money. While still a chance of losing money


----------



## Hill town (Aug 25, 2017)

I can't believe no one here that says they have been doing this for 20+ years will tell you what you need to make to cover your costs. I know insurance varies and you can't nail that down until you decide what jobs you are going to do. Do not allow some dickhead to tell you your equipment is worth $60 am hour. Where I'm at labor is worth $30+ and you don't necessarily get skill or reliability for that. Any truck tractor skidsteer excavator no matter how old is worth $100 an hour period, if you can't make nearly $100 an hour plowing snow after expenses don't do it.


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hill town said:


> I can't believe no one here that says they have been doing this for 20+ years will tell you what you need to make to cover your costs.


So, how much does he need to make to cover his costs?


----------



## Hill town (Aug 25, 2017)

Oh and call around for insurance, alot!! They all suck and will either refuse or want to take every dime you can spare and don't dare make a claim. I have nothing to add about sand/ salt as I don't do it.


----------



## Hill town (Aug 25, 2017)

Well a truck and plow costs $100,000 and last 10 years if you are lucky so start at 10g a year. Aim for $200 an hour


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Hill town said:


> I can't believe no one here that says they have been doing this for 20+ years will tell you what you need to make to cover your costs. I know insurance varies and you can't nail that down until you decide what jobs you are going to do. Do not allow some dickhead to tell you your equipment is worth $60 am hour. Where I'm at labor is worth $30+ and you don't necessarily get skill or reliability for that. Any truck tractor skidsteer excavator no matter how old is worth $100 an hour period, if you can't make nearly $100 an hour plowing snow after expenses don't do it.


nope I can’t tell him after doing this for well over 20 years what his number he needs to be, not a clue what he needs to make to have a comfortable living.

I also think if you’re going to be a businessman this task is something you should be able to figure out on your own or you will never be able to figure out your expansion.
Or if you really are making a living.

sorry,
Different areas have different standards and rates and even in one area prices can vary greatly from one company to another I wonder why that is?

as your business grows you buy things you hire people your overhead changes you better know what you need to charge.
And only you know that number.

Then you gotta figure out how depreciation works and what happens when it comes time to sell the equipment with taxes yada yada yada again I don’t know the values

ps
If Running a profitable business was easy everyone would be doing it


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Hill town said:


> Well a truck and plow costs $100,000 and last 10 years if you are lucky so start at 10g a year. Aim for $200 an hour


So, the guys getting paid $100/hr from their local municipality are losing 50 cents on every dollar they collect?


----------



## Hill town (Aug 25, 2017)

Alot of those guys are just plowing snow to keep people employed over the winter. Employee retention, only need to cover costs. Much different than buying equipment for a sole purpose


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

I see


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Hill town said:


> Alot of those guys are just plowing snow to keep people employed over the winter. Employee retention, only need to cover costs.


You're obviously not a landscaper...


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

More facts for the Hydro so he might stop telling people to get an accountant and that they're wrong, this is something i directly know about it, it's not just irs website links and "you're wrong" comments.

Just because hydro don't know, doesn't mean we don't know remember that kids. 

"There are two situations in which an independent contractor can receive both Forms 1099 and W2 from the same employer. The first is if the worker performed duties as an employee and independent contractor concurrently for the same employer. Basically this means the worker had a job as an employee and another job as a contractor for the same company.
The other situation is where the worker held these two jobs at separate times during the same tax year for the same employer. Sometimes, an employer will issue a bonus through Form 1099 in addition to a W-2 for wages. If this happens, seek to get the 1099 cancelled and instead have the bonus added to a corrected W2. Employee fringe benefits should also not be reported on a 1099."

hydro, do everybody a favor and be nice. You literally have a run in with every single thread.


----------



## Hill town (Aug 25, 2017)

I am a landscaper, but I don't and would not plow for my township for $100 an hour.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Hill town said:


> I am a landscaper, but I don't and would not plow for my township for $100 an hour.


As the once great Weird AL once sung "I'd rather jam an ice pick under a toe nail or two" then to work in the Winter to break even and retain employees...


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

rippinryno said:


> More facts for the Hydro so he might stop telling people to get an accountant and that they're wrong, this is something i directly know about it, it's not just irs website links and "you're wrong" comments.
> 
> Just because hydro don't know, doesn't mean we don't know remember that kids.
> 
> ...


I think the point was he can't be a sub contractor and an employee for the same job. If he is plowing snow then he's either a sub or an employee.... if he's the maintenance guy then he's either a sub or an employee. But yes, he can be an employee as the maintenance guy and a sub as the plow guy, because they are different jobs.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I think the point was he can't be a sub contractor and an employee for the same job. If he is plowing snow then he's either a sub or an employee.... if he's the maintenance guy then he's either a sub or an employee. But yes, he can be an employee as the maintenance guy and a sub as the plow guy, because they are different jobs.


So what if he is plowing as an employee for a company, and owns a plow biz that is also plowing on the same job, but is a subcontractor to said company...🤔


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

rippinryno said:


> For you, awesome. I'm not getting 10'2" through many places in my lots. That's why I love wings, they're removable and the boss wings are quickly removable, so I am not stuck leaving some of the tighter lanes/areas snow covered. Believe it or not a couple feet of plow makes a difference when in tight parking lots. I'll take as much width as possible on the wide open areas but I take the wings off for the detail work and it saves me time.


You realize you can put your V plow into Scoop position to push through tight areas and V position to back drag rather than removing the wings.
Also I clearly noted, All obstructions (parked vehicles, building and light poles) will be plowed 2' from the obstruction. This takes away any risk of damage or falsely blamed for damage.
If the customer wants things cleared closer then it's quoted as shoveling.


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So what if he is plowing as an employee for a company, and owns a plow biz that is also plowing on the same job, but is a subcontractor to said company...🤔


He's doubling down and making bank if he's on the employers time clock.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So what if he is plowing as an employee for a company, and owns a plow biz that is also plowing on the same job, but is a subcontractor to said company...🤔


That might fly, but if the both cheques come from the same company it would appear someone's trying to avoid paying overtime.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

BUFF said:


> He's doubling down and making bank if he's on the employers time clock.












I may or may not know someone who works for an excavator, but owns a lawn business. He may sometimes sub his lawn biz to said excavator... Probably why he has a nice JD with MP and Nokian tires you know who was checking out...


----------



## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So what if he is plowing as an employee for a company, and owns a plow biz that is also plowing on the same job, but is a subcontractor to said company...🤔


Haha, I guess it would be specific to that site that he's a sub... would have to pretty good at record keeping....


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Go market yourself to doing driveways to start out. Have a minimum price like $35 in town, $65 rural. Efficiency will have you doing 6-10+drives an hour and you will quickly see what your time can be worth. Do all the calculations you want to break even but working in bad weather, all night, giving up family and holidays should make you some bank not just pay back your debt.
Subbing parking lots will help you learn some tricks but at $100/hr you aren't making money...JMO


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

I quoted a duplex for realtor today at:
$35 per. 2 driveways. 
120’ of city sidewalk. 
2 front porches. with 3 steps each. Sidewalk to the driveway from porches. Probably 10’ on one side 15’ on the other. One unit had a back “porch” that led to driveway. 200 sf. For that area.

I told him $50 for all the walk.
Salt $10/bag.

2” trigger. That rate covers 2”-6”
6 1/4”-12” would be 1.5x the above rates.
Realtor: Thank you so much! I’ll be in touch.
Is that a nice way of saying, NO?


----------



## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

is the realtor just the middle man? Sounds like it.
I think you’re too cheap in your price of salt per bag, a decent spreader is going to be at least 250 bucks.
Also, not saying you need to go this route, but all of our commercial (or accounts that take salt) have a 1” triggers. Anything more than that, is a significant amount of snow to melt with salt.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

trod81 said:


> I quoted a duplex for realtor today at:
> $35 per. 2 driveways.
> 120’ of city sidewalk.
> 2 front porches. with 3 steps each. Sidewalk to the driveway from porches. Probably 10’ on one side 15’ on the other. One unit had a back “porch” that led to driveway. 200 sf. For that area.
> ...


Sounds like he's getting other prices. 
You may or may not get them. 
Sometimes they'll go with some fly by night outfit and when the don't show, they end up calling you. 
Keep trying.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

BossPlow2010 said:


> is the realtor just the middle man? Sounds like it.
> I think you’re too cheap in your price of salt per bag, a decent spreader is going to be at least 250 bucks.
> Also, not saying you need to go this route, but all of our commercial (or accounts that take salt) have a 1” triggers. Anything more than that, is a significant amount of snow to melt with salt.


The realtor could be the property manager. 
The salt price is a little low, but he doesn't have to have a spreader starting out. There's always chicken feeding, which is better than some sidewalk spreaders slinging salt all over the lawns.
Try to shoot for 1" triggers. If it snows a few times at an inch or less and people walk and drive on it, its difficult to clean up decently.


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Ajlawn1 said:


> So what if he is plowing as an employee for a company, and owns a plow biz that is also plowing on the same job, but is a subcontractor to said company...🤔


Then he gets 10% ,for the big guy.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

EWSplow said:


> The realtor could be the property manager.
> The salt price is a little low, but he doesn't have to have a spreader starting out. There's always chicken feeding, which is better than some sidewalk spreaders slinging salt all over the lawns.
> Try to shoot for 1" triggers. If it snows a few times at an inch or less and people walk and drive on it, its difficult to clean up decently.


So you guys are saying to go out and remove snow at 1”? Or just throwing salt at 1”?


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

I have a salt spreader on my sxs I could take off and put on the truck. But it only holds 3 bags. 
Btw, I am getting the Ram 2500 with v-plow. Meeting the seller Next week.


----------



## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

trod81 said:


> So you guys are saying to go out and remove snow at 1”? Or just throwing salt at 1”?


Plow 1” or over depending on forecasted temps/ humidity/ snow / cloud cover
Salt anything less depending on conditions.
If you get freezing rain, salt, then plow then salt again and salt a third time

you’ll begin to gain confidence in what works for different conditions and what could be done differently


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

BUFF said:


> He's doubling down and making bank if he's on the employers time clock.


You said it. Glad we are all catching on.

Even in V mode, my plow with wings is much wider than the truck and it doesnt magically go into spots that my non wing plow does.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

rippinryno said:


> You said it. Glad we are all catching on.
> 
> Even in V mode, my plow with wings is much wider than the truck and it doesnt magically go into spots that my non wing plow does.


it as wide as the mirrors, the mirrors are part of the truck, it fits between park cars in a lot.
And I have yet to not make it through a drive-through.
happy plowing

keep trying
When HR gets wind of this double dip they’ll put a quick stop to it,

I hired a subcontractor to plow an average residential drive with turnaround.
Seasonal contract @$250a month, 2 inch trigger, done before 6am, unlimited plowing.
Paid monthly.


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

Did the master of hydro seriously make a claim that a 8'2" v plow with wings is as wide as the mirrors on my truck? Boy is that wrong. Would it blow your mind to know that my 8'2" V plow in v mode is as wide as my mirrors and when i put the wings on it's almost 2 ft wider than the mirrors. Those are the actual facts not just random claims. 

Double dipping was a joke, but you can certainly see and understand how an individual can be both a contractor and a employee right? Because I was one, and because it happens quite often in certain industries. I sure hope you are grasping this.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

theres not enough hrs in a year..


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

I just went and checked one of the trucks. The plow, in v mode, with the wings on is exactly 2ft 4 inches wider than is my truck from mirror to mirror. Not only does this mean you are wrong, but it solidifies the fact that my setup without wings gets into tighter spaces without worry of smashing something with a wing. I knew there was a reason I run the plow without wings at some of my lots...hmm.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Do you drive a Dodge?
Do you have toe mirrors?
I know you get fli…. nevermind, do you flip them out?
Do you use a rt2?

i never said in the Vee, I said in scoop.
Then there is trick that also works, move one wing forward in one wing back usually gives you a lot more wiggle room because of the slop in your frame in the plow as you go through a drive-through. if a drive-through was any Narrower I couldn’t even fit through with my truck.

maybe if you had as many hours in a plow truck as you claim, you’d be more proficient.

I don’t know how many hours I have put in plowing but I usually( use ta) wear out a edge(s) every year


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

What you said is wrong. My plow with wings isnt as narrow as the mirrors in v or in scoop. 

It is much easier for me to get in and clear tighter areas without the wings.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Good for you or not.
But my plow on my truck with one wing all the way back and the other one 2/3 of the way back
(Just because that’s how it’s setting), is just under 9 feet.
From toe mirror to toe mirror my truck is 10 feet wide, in scoop the plow will be closer to 8ft.
When the plow is straight it measures at 10’1”


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

An 8-2 with wings in scoop (as hydro said all along) should be less than 103” because as you scoop the wing tips will come closer to center a little. A drive thru should be a minimum of 10’ or 120” that should leave 17 plus inches. If that ain’t enough you have a problem. Now let’s be done with this.


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

LapeerLandscape said:


> An 8-2 with wings in scoop (as hydro said all along) should be less than 103” because as you scoop the wing tips will come closer to center a little.


Yeah, welcome to the conversation. We all know in scoop mode the plow width will narrow as it's angled forward.

Hydro said 8'2" with wings is as wide as the mirrors. This is incorrect. That's why i like to get smaller lots and more difficult areas without the wings, it allows me to be able to get into places better than I would be able too with the added width from the wings. Even if it was as narrow as the mirrors, which it's not even close, AT the narrowest, in scoop mode, you don't have the advantage of using the plow the way you need too in order to clean the snow. Scoop mode isn't as good for detailed work as is the other plow functions and having the wings off makes the plow that much narrower and closer to where my mirrors width would be.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

LapeerLandscape said:


> An 8-2 with wings in scoop (as hydro said all along) should be less than 103” because as you scoop the wing tips will come closer to center a little. A drive thru should be a minimum of 10’ or 120” that should leave 17 plus inches. If that ain’t enough you have a problem. Now let’s be done with this.
> View attachment 259478
> View attachment 259479
> View attachment 259480


Interesting...the donut shop has a narrower drive through...


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)




----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Do you drive a Dodge?
> Do you have toe mirrors?


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 259481


I can write my name in the snow too..


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> I can write my name in the snow too..


Hence, the username...


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

EWSplow said:


> Hence, the username...


It all makes sense now!!


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

So, who's going to win the Super Bowl? 

If my crap doesn't fit in, I want nothing to do with it. 

Damn damaging a piece of equipment because it won't fit in or just barely fits isn't worth cost of a fender, door(s) bedside. 

Simply put, it's just not worth it. Pissing about a couple of inches, Well this isn't sex.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

1olddogtwo said:


> So, who's going to win the Super Bowl?
> 
> If my crap doesn't fit in, I want nothing to do with it.
> 
> ...


Sage advice coming from a guy who ripped a plow off of a truck and under a couple hours

inches matter.

if it didn’t fit, ho yea, you wouldn’t understand.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Got a quote back for insurance. 250/500000 for around 2000 a year. I read some of your guys insurance is 7k a year, im sure your coverages are higher. As you do more work.
Right now I am just going to be doing some work at the truck stop Maybe 2 of them. And 2 driveways with sidewalks and salting.
In your professional opinions, is that “close to enough” coverage? I know only I know my own numbers. But it’s hard to sign up for commercial insurance, all while trying to build my clientele. Lol how am I supposed to advertise I’m licensed and bonded and insured, while not knowing if I’ll have enough work to cover it!!!!

I guess I answered my own question…..like said above- “if it was easy, everyone would do it”

I will just have the one v-plow and single stage snowblower running right now. Might snag a 85 lb spreader of CL for $40.

thanks guys.
Let me have it…..


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

trod81 said:


> Got a quote back for insurance. 250/500000 for around 2000 a year. I read some of your guys insurance is 7k a year, im sure your coverages are higher. As you do more work.
> Right now I am just going to be doing some work at the truck stop Maybe 2 of them. And 2 driveways with sidewalks and salting.
> In your professional opinions, is that “close to enough” coverage? I know only I know my own numbers. But it’s hard to sign up for commercial insurance, all while trying to build my clientele. Lol how am I supposed to advertise I’m licensed and bonded and insured, while not knowing if I’ll have enough work to cover it!!!!
> 
> ...


Cost of policy is generally reflective of your annual revenue and type of work you do/risk.
A lot of business require all contractor to have at least a $1m liability policy and common for $2m coverage.
If the business don't have a min coverage amount for liability it's still in your best interest to have at $1m coverage and you may find to increase it to $2m isn't that much more.
Being underinsured for snow removal work is foolish IMO.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

BUFF said:


> Cost of policy is generally reflective of your annual revenue and type of work you do/risk.
> A lot of business require all contractor to have at least a $1m liability policy and common for $2m coverage.
> If the business don't have a min coverage amount for liability it's still in your best interest to have at $1m coverage and you may find to increase it to $2m isn't that much more.
> Being underinsured for snow removal work is foolish IMO.


Ok. Thank you for that information. Much appreciated!


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

trod81 said:


> Got a quote back for insurance. 250/500000 for around 2000 a year. I read some of your guys insurance is 7k a year, im sure your coverages are higher. As you do more work.
> Right now I am just going to be doing some work at the truck stop Maybe 2 of them. And 2 driveways with sidewalks and salting.
> In your professional opinions, is that “close to enough” coverage? I know only I know my own numbers. But it’s hard to sign up for commercial insurance, all while trying to build my clientele. Lol how am I supposed to advertise I’m licensed and bonded and insured, while not knowing if I’ll have enough work to cover it!!!!
> 
> ...


Ask about an umbrella policy to boost your coverage. They are usually cheaper.
I think you would be considered under insured for the truck stop(s).
Just the volume of traffic increases the exposure to slip/ fall claims.
For residential I think you would be ok, to start with.
Did you tell your agent you would be plowing truck stop?
Gas stations are their own league.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

jonniesmooth said:


> Ask about an umbrella policy to boost your coverage. They are usually cheaper.
> I think you would be considered under insured for the truck stop(s).
> Just the volume of traffic increases the exposure to slip/ fall claims.
> For residential I think you would be ok, to start with.
> ...


Thank you!


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Insurance is a scam but unfortunately it's a necessary evil. I second higher coverage with an umbrella.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Phile whine...


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Phile whine...


Post cop… 

op
I second third fifth or 20th probably not a bad number insurance wise if you weren’t doing truck-stop gas stations or dr offices 
To be safe I’d bump that up to 1 million.


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Phile whine...


Nobody axed you


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

m_ice said:


> Nobody axed you


I did... Don't you have a phone call you should still be waiting on...


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I did... Don't you have a phone call you should still be waiting on...


No


----------



## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Gas stations absolutely suck, I would imagine a truck stop would be even worse. 

I would think you're exposure would be much higher due to the volume of foot traffic.


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

IT's not all peaches and cream.  Gas stations need plowed too.

I'd keep your GL at 1 million minimum. As mentioned previously that's typically the min. requirement, 2 million can be had for not much more.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

rippinryno said:


> IT's not all peaches and cream. Gas stations need plowed too.
> 
> I'd keep your GL at 1 million minimum. As mentioned previously that's typically the min. requirement, 2 million can be had for not much more.


ok. Thank you all. Got quotes from 3-4 different places so far. Adds about $100-$150 a month to my current policy. Waiting to hear back from a few of them on Monday about just doing a few months of coverage at a time. Maybe 6 months.
Thanks for all your help!


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Wait you can buy snow insurance for only 6 mths???? I've been doing this wrong for years, I think I'm due a rebate.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Mr.Markus said:


> Wait you can buy snow insurance for only 6 mths???? I've been doing this wrong for years, I think I'm due a rebate.


that’s what she told me today. She’s getting back with me on Monday. 

If she’s right. Then yes you’re doing it wrong. Lol, but she could be wrong!


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

trod81 said:


> that’s what she told me today. She’s getting back with me on Monday.
> 
> If she’s right. Then yes you’re doing it wrong. Lol, but she could be wrong!


Probably pay 2 payments (6months billing cycle) for one year coverage.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

BUFF said:


> Probably pay 2 payments (6months billing cycle) for one year coverage.


No


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

BUFF said:


> Probably pay 2 payments (6months billing cycle) for one year coverage.


So one year you're paying for 2 months, maybe 3( October snow does happen here)of coverage, and the next year you are paying for 4?
I pay my insurance monthly, but usually pay it off by about Sept. So I can use that money elsewhere in the fall,as work slows up till( if) it snows.


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

jonniesmooth said:


> So one year you're paying for 2 months, maybe 3( October snow does happen here)of coverage, and the next year you are paying for 4?
> I pay my insurance monthly, but usually pay it off by about Sept. So I can use that money elsewhere in the fall,as work slows up till( if) it snows.


My GL policy covered summer work too.
The only months it doesn't snow where I'm at is July and August.
I'd rather pay twice a year than monthly which is how I pay all my other insurance policy's.
Best way to have funds on hand for unforeseen expenses is resist temptation, only buy what's needed and don't buy junk that's going to cost you in repairs.
I was told by my dad when I was young, you need one years of your annual expenses in reserve and at least 6 months food storage incase on emergency.


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

_s_


BUFF said:


> My GL policy covered summer work too.
> The only months it doesn't snow where I'm at is July and August.
> I'd rather pay twice a year than monthly which is how I pay all my other insurance policy's.
> Best way to have funds on hand for unforeseen expenses is resist temptation, only buy what's needed and don't buy junk that's going to cost you in repairs.
> I was told by my dad when I was young, you need one years of your annual expenses in reserve and at least 6 months food storage incase on emergency.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> View attachment 259629
> _s_


Zactly why I gave up plowing.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Alright fellas. 

I got another (stupid) question. 

I have applied for an LLC. Paid the state fees. Waiting on my letter ID to register my business. 

The 2 jobs I have lined up I am not salting at all. Just plowing. As a sub. 

Will I be ok with just upping my coverages on my auto policy, and also making it a “business” policy instead of a “pleasure” policy?
The insurance agents aren’t very helpful. When I get quotes from them the most they’re offering is 250000/500000.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

trod81 said:


> Alright fellas.
> 
> I got another (stupid) question.
> 
> ...


I have a $2 million liability policy, but snow was a minimal part of my business. 
If you're subbing and there's a claim, the plaintiff is going after everyone. Most likely the deepest pockets will pay the most. Its unlikely (but not impossible) that they'll go after more than your policy covers. If you back over a pedestrian, it might be a different story. 
Usually the main contractor requires a minimum of whatever from their subs. What does the company you're subbing for require?


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Comershail libelity insurance,
You’re not insuring your vehicle, you’re insuring your business,
Did you tell them you have a snow plowing business and you need insurance protect you against slip and fall claims.

and I have yet to meet and insurance agent who isn’t willing to sell you more insurance than you could possibly need.


either he’s not understanding what you’re doing or you’re not explaining it to him right or you need a new guy.



Commercial general liability (CGL) is a type of insurance policy that provides coverage to a business for bodily injury, personal injury, and property damage caused by the business’s operations, products, or injuries that occur on the business’s premises.

in this day and age , I think the minimum you would want to go with would be 1 million


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

EWSplow said:


> I have a $2 million liability policy, but snow was a minimal part of my business.
> If you're subbing and there's a claim, the plaintiff is going after everyone. Most likely the deepest pockets will pay the most. Its unlikely (but not impossible) that they'll go after more than your policy covers. If you back over a pedestrian, it might be a different story.
> Usually the main contractor requires a minimum of whatever from their subs. What does the company you're subbing for require?


He just told me I need my own insurance as I would be 1099 my business.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Hydromaster said:


> Comershail libelity insurance,
> You’re not ensuring your vehicle, you’re ensuring your business,
> Did you tell them you have a snow plowing business and you need insurance protect you against slip and fall claims.
> 
> ...


Ok. So without my LLC fully set up, how do I go about insuring my “rink a dink” business. Lol. 

I believe that’s where my wires are getting crossed with the agents, they’re trying to sell as much insurance as possible to me. While I’m trying to pay the least, but have the most coverage.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Comershail libelity insurance,
> You’re not ensuring your vehicle, you’re ensuring your business,
> Did you tell them you have a snow plowing business and you need insurance protect you against slip and fall claims.
> 
> ...


The commercial auto policy also covers some of those. 
In the OP"s case, with what I'm assuming won't have a huge amount of total sales, his general liability shouldn't be too high. 
There seems to be a misunderstanding somewhere.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

trod81 said:


> He just told me I need my own insurance as I would be 1099 my business.


Most reputable companies have a minimum requirement for liability insurance for their subs.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Ok. I will check on that. Thanks.


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

trod81 said:


> Ok. So without my LLC fully set up, how do I go about insuring my “rink a dink” business. Lol.


You'd have to ask your agent - it's possible the answer is: "you don't"


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

trod81 said:


> While I’m trying to pay the least, but have the most coverage.


Unfortunately insurance doesn't really work that way


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

trod81 said:


> Ok. So without my LLC fully set up, how do I go about insuring my “rink a dink” business. Lol.
> 
> I believe that’s where my wires are getting crossed with the agents, they’re trying to sell as much insurance as possible to me. While I’m trying to pay the least, but have the most coverage.


As mentioned previously, the general liability insurance is based on gross sales.
Go online and search general liability. You'll probably find something that has you fill out some type of questionnaire. Several independent agents will contact you.

I'm too lazy to look back. What state are you in?


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

EWSplow said:


> As mentioned previously, the general liability insurance is based on gross sales.
> Go online and search general liability. You'll probably find something that has you fill out some type of questionnaire. Several independent agents will contact you.
> 
> I'm too lazy to look back. What state are you in?


Illinois. Home of extortion and commies


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Business insurance quote-$12000. 
Lol


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

That was after I told them I only plan on making 7500. 

I’ll keep calling. 

One of the subs did tell me I needed a certificate of liability, But no requirement on exact coverage amounts.


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

trod81 said:


> That was after I told them I only plan on making 7500.
> 
> I’ll keep calling.
> 
> One of the subs did tell me I needed a certificate of liability, But no requirement on exact coverage amounts.


Who did you get that quote from?


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Try an independent agent that carries lots of different companies...
Pekin and Grinnell are good options for upstarts


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

m_ice said:


> Try an independent agent that carries lots of different companies...
> Pekin and Grinnell are good options for upstarts


That was progressive “business insurance team”. 

Thanks for that! 

I just left a message with a couple Pekin agents and a couple grinnell agents.


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

trod81 said:


> That was progressive “business insurance team”.
> 
> Thanks for that!
> 
> I just left a message with a couple Pekin agents and a couple grinnell agents.


Years ago when we started out Grinnell out of Iowa was the only insurance company that would give us a chemical applicator endorsement. I've heard Pekin is getting more difficult for snow but is also close to your home and based out of Illinois.


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

trod81 said:


> That was after I told them I only plan on making 7500.
> 
> I’ll keep calling.
> 
> One of the subs did tell me I needed a certificate of liability, But no requirement on exact coverage amounts.


Well, I'm not defending the insurance companies but keep in mind that even if you say you are doing 1 driveway for $50, should they opt to be on the hook for a million in potential slip-and-fall liability for $10 because that's what a "fair" percentage of your gross revenue might be?

Your $12k premium covers approx. 25% of one $50k claim - so it takes 4 policies like yours to breakeven on 1 single ambulance chasing lawyer. And that's for a relatively small claim. Go ahead and Google "average slip and fall settlement" (edit: fixed bad math)

Wait, I guess I am defending the insurance companies. Oh well.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Ha! Shows what you know. I'm not good at anything.


Not even sarcasm?


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Not even sarcasm?


Beats me. All this "sarcasm?" stuff lately has me questioning everything now even when I post it.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Me too...


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> View attachment 259421
> 
> 
> I may or may not know someone who works for an excavator, but owns a lawn business. He may sometimes sub his lawn biz to said excavator... Probably why he has a nice JD with MP and Nokian tires you know who was checking out...


Who?


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hill town said:


> I am a landscaper, but I don't and would not plow for my township for $100 an hour.


THat's because your 100 loonies is only about $57.34 Murcan.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> An 8-2 with wings in scoop (as hydro said all along) should be less than 103” because as you scoop the wing tips will come closer to center a little. A drive thru should be a minimum of 10’ or 120” that should leave 17 plus inches. If that ain’t enough you have a problem. Now let’s be done with this.
> View attachment 259478
> View attachment 259479
> View attachment 259480


Hate to say it...but should and are in real life are not the same thing. 

I've not measured all but there are plenty that are less than 10' around here.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jonniesmooth said:


> Ask about an umbrella policy to boost your coverage. They are usually cheaper.
> I think you would be considered under insured for the truck stop(s).
> Just the volume of traffic increases the exposure to slip/ fall claims.
> For residential I think you would be ok, to start with.
> ...


He doesn't have to insure against slip and falls, he doesn't hold the contract. 

It's basically just liability if he hits something.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hate to say it...but should and are in real life are not the same thing.
> 
> I've not measured all but there are plenty that are less than 10' around here.


Hey, quit, one of them already lost the pissing match. Lol.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Mark Oomkes said:


> He doesn't have to insure against slip and falls, he doesn't hold the contract.
> 
> It's basically just liability if he hits something.


From the 2 sub jobs I’ve got lined up this year. I can’t see it being worth While to try and insure my business, and make money. Just getting the commercial policy is what I’m leaning towards for this year.


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

trod81 said:


> Hey, quit, one of them already lost the pissing match. Lol.


No one on here _ever_ concedes to losing a pissing match.


----------



## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Another plowing tip stay away from places with drive ups they’re worse than doing gas stations.
Not only do they require a lot of maintenance if you have to lower your efficiency down to a 7.5plow they certainly aren’t worth it


----------



## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

trod81 said:


> I just left a message with a couple Pekin agents and a couple grinnell agents.


If you have any questions about Pekin let me know, I have been using them for several years now.


----------



## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Who?


Once again late to the party, that was over a week ago I don't remember now...


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

What party?


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> What party?


Take it to the political thread...


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Had a contractor tell me he would give me $80/hr. No salting. I have to provide a certificate of liability insurance. No required amount. 

I know you don’t know my numbers. I don’t have any numbers lol. I got one truck with a v-plow. 

Im in quad cities Illinois. 

Earlier someone said $60. Another said no less than $100. 

Fair? Or should I ask for $90. He told me he gives his trucks with Salters $100/hr


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

trod81 said:


> Had a contractor tell me he would give me $80/hr. No salting. I have to provide a certificate of liability insurance. No required amount.
> 
> I know you don’t know my numbers. I don’t have any numbers lol. I got one truck with a v-plow.
> 
> ...


Stupid question - have you checked with your local municipality(ies) to see what they are paying?


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

trod81 said:


> Had a contractor tell me he would give me $80/hr. No salting. I have to provide a certificate of liability insurance. No required amount.
> 
> I know you don’t know my numbers. I don’t have any numbers lol. I got one truck with a v-plow.
> 
> ...


$80 isn't bad. If you're new atit, you aren't going to be as productive as someone with more experience. 
Hopefully, it covers your costs, overhead, wear and tear, etc.
Everyone has to start somewhere. 
I'm guessing you're in a little snow area, so you probably won't have many events. There's probably more need for salting there.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

I have. I emailed a couple cities around me. No luck. But I will try to contact more. Thank you for that info.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

EWSplow said:


> $80 isn't bad. If you're new atit, you aren't going to be as productive as someone with more experience.
> Hopefully, it covers your costs, overhead, wear and tear, etc.
> Everyone has to start somewhere.
> I'm guessing you're in a little snow area, so you probably won't have many events. There's probably more need for salting there.


Yeah I was thinking bitting the bullet, taking the $80/hr and just asking for more next season.


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

trod81 said:


> Yeah I was thinking bitting the bullet, taking the $80/hr and just asking for more next season.


Maybe talk to the contractor...negotiate a higher rate for when you get some experience.


----------



## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

EWSplow said:


> $80 isn't bad. If you're new atit, you aren't going to be as productive as someone with more experience.
> Hopefully, it covers your costs, overhead, wear and tear, etc.
> Everyone has to start somewhere.
> I'm guessing you're in a little snow area, so you probably won't have many events. There's probably more need for salting there.


Yes he is in a low snow area, probably averages 5 pushes and 12-15 saltings per year


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

I do plow for the city I’m at now in the culdesacs. So I am always around cars. Not blocking in driveways. Not hitting mailboxes. Also lifting the blade and net tearing up sod.


----------



## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

trod81 said:


> I have. I emailed a couple cities around me. No luck. But I will try to contact more. Thank you for that info.


Weird. Around here every single town has signs all over the place soliciting plow contractors. I saw one just today flashing "NEW RATES!!"


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

I think your expectations of $7500 might be a little high. I'm guessing its closer to $5K per season.
That said, if you really want to do this, go for it. I just wouldn't plan too much extra income after your expenses.
I drove to dubuque late last winter. It had snowed in southern Wisconsin and by the time I got within 40 miles of dubuque, there was nothing.

I guess missed that you are a Municipal plow driver in your other job. 
I friend of mine buys old city plow trucks and used to sub for them using their old trucks. He'd get them for $3K-$4K. He's a driver's trainer for the city and a mechanic, so it was kind of a no brainer for him. Just another route to consider.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

EWSplow said:


> I think your expectations of $7500 might be a little high. I'm guessing its closer to $5K per season.
> That said, if you really want to do this, go for it. I just wouldn't plan too much extra income after your expenses.
> I drove to dubuque late last winter. It had snowed in southern Wisconsin and by the time I got within 40 miles of dubuque, there was nothing.
> 
> ...


That was probably a bit high in estimation. But I wanted to tell the agent higher than anticipated to ensure proper coverage. Then the Karen still said $12k a year. I know I know she was just inputting numbers and reading back what the companies offered. 

That seems like a nice gig!


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

It's possible that there's a minimum on liability insurance, but that still seems high. 
In your location, I'm guessing there are independent agents in a) 4 states that are licensed in all 4. 
Keep shopping.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

EWSplow said:


> It's possible that there's a minimum on liability insurance, but that still seems high.
> In your location, I'm guessing there are independent agents in a) 4 states that are licensed in all 4.
> Keep shopping.


Insurance Shopping like my life depends on it….


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

$5400 for general liability. 

I am waiting for the “I told you so’s….”

Or rather, and preferably, different routes to take. 

I am willing to lose sleep, go out in the cold. And plow snow. But, I feel without having 4 trucks running. And/or having a landscaping/alternate company in the summer, is the only way to make the numbers work.


----------



## Mountain Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

Yep, hard to "go small". Have him put his liability on your rig.


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

trod81 said:


> $5400 for general liability.
> 
> I am waiting for the “I told you so’s….”
> 
> ...


Doing snow only is tough due to insurance cost. If I recall correctly my policy allows for 30% of annual snow work income. If I went over that rates really climb.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

I had one agent quote me as a lawn care business. Adding snow as incidental. 

Thoughts?


----------



## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

trod81 said:


> I had one agent quote me as a lawn care business. Adding snow as incidental.
> 
> Thoughts?


That's how mine was set up and why the limit on income.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

trod81 said:


> I had one agent quote me as a lawn care business. Adding snow as incidental.
> 
> Thoughts?


That might be the way American family does it. 
I had them for a short time, about 14 years ago. 
They won't insure building contractors so I had to go elsewhere when construction picked up. 
My current company doesn't insure plow contractors as a primary business, but does cover it as a secondary service. My commercial auto was more due to snow than the general liability was due to snow. 
That might be your best route. 
Keep in mind, there may be an audit and you will have to show your gross sales, sometimes a copy of your schedule C is enough.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Thank you. I will look into limits on income. 

I got some good info from a few agents….at 4pm. Lol so they all gave up on me! Gonna be busy Monday morning! Supposed to have our first storm Thursday!


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Went and subbed Monday. only 4.5 hours. Paid by the hr, but I have to shovel/snowblow. Not to thrilled but hey I gotta start somewhere. 

I also have(had) 8 residential jobs set up. First storm wasn’t enough snow. Second storm I only had to do 5 of them. One wouldn’t answer me back (I’m pretty sure they got another quote) and the other 2 said they can drive on it (1.5-2”) so didn’t need me to come out.
I make significantly more doing the residential, but have significantly more reliability working for the contractor.
Thanks for all your help gentleman.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

trod81 said:


> Went and subbed Monday. only 4.5 hours. Paid by the hr, but I have to shovel/snowblow. Not to thrilled but hey I gotta start somewhere.
> 
> I also have(had) 8 residential jobs set up. First storm wasn’t enough snow. Second storm I only had to do 5 of them. One wouldn’t answer me back (I’m pretty sure they got another quote) and the other 2 said they can drive on it (1.5-2”) so didn’t need me to come out.
> I make significantly more doing the residential, but have significantly more reliability working for the contractor.
> Thanks for all your help gentleman.


Thanks for the update. 
At least you're getting your feet wet. 
Hopefully, you're covering your costs and making a little money. 
What truck did you end up plowing with?


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

EWSplow said:


> Thanks for the update.
> At least you're getting your feet wet.
> Hopefully, you're covering your costs and making a little money.
> What truck did you end up plowing with?


Ram 2500 with a boss vplow. If I count In the amount of time I spent looking for insurance probably in the hole. But, with fuel, depreciation, taxes I’d say I did alright.


----------



## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

trod81 said:


> Ram 2500 with a boss vplow. If I count In the amount of time I spent looking for insurance probably in the hole. But, with fuel, depreciation, taxes I’d say I did alright.


You never get back the cost of your education. It’s the cost of doing business but right on getting your feet wet. End of the season step back and ponder how you can do better/more/higher profit/lower risk work.
We started with the crap sub work too and are in the process of getting out of subbing entirely on snow. Each year we get closer to that goal. Thankfully most of the crap is behind us now. Learn from failures, build on success.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

Well, I got asked to do a quote on a town home community.

13 buildings. 
1600’ of 4’ sidewalk. 
30 covered stoops. 
62000 sf of plowing including parking spots, thoroughfares. Other parking areas. Lots of easy pushing but small bullnoses in between each garage, I would need to clear out to the front of bullnoses so I can catch the snow with my blade on my truck. Little time consuming there.
I’m a one man show. My first instinct is to just say “that’s too big for just me, I’ll pass this on to a bigger contractor” But hey why not try and throw a number out there and see what they say. I spent some time measuring everything up. Calcing out how long everything would take me. I figured $700 per push (1” trigger). That’s for 1-4.99” of snow. 5”-12” $1050.

contract would be $1750. Since it’s so late in January, I would do date of quote to April xx.

I know you guys don’t know my numbers. But here’s the jist- I’m a 1 man show. 1 truck -1 sxs with a plow and spreader-snowblower-couple shovels. 

Thoughts?
Tips?
Advice?
Am I in over my head?

note: when I showed up to scope the area out, there are markers out and piles of snow. So curious as to what happened with previous contractor or if they’re just shopping around.

thanks


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

They aren't happy with their current service?



Their current guy has to quit for some reason?



They don't pay their bills?







I'd say this is a bit much for a one man band with another job.


----------



## Shady (11 mo ago)

trod81 said:


> Well, I got asked to do a quote on a town home community.
> 
> 13 buildings.
> 1600’ of 4’ sidewalk.
> ...


“Am I in over my head?” I’m not sure how you would even consider you could handle this by yourself. But if you have ever wondered how plowing businesses fail imho this is a perfect example. I appreciate the fact you are hungry for the work but as a one man operation you need to take smaller steps and find what will work for you. I would never even consider anything that involves shoveling if I was solo as it takes time away from the bread and butter. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.


----------



## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Let me try again from my laptop. There's a problem with my phone and PS.
This is too much for one guy. As stated, you don't want all those sidewalks.
That said, if you are planning to grow your business and hire or sub others, you may consider telling them you will quote it next year.
There's too much plowing for one truck. The reason they might be looking for someone new is their current contractor may not have been able to complete it in a timely manor. also, without a back up truck, if they had a break down, they may not have been able to complete it on time.
Associations can be difficult because instead of one person to answer to, you may have dozens.
I did a similar condo community a little smaller quite a few years ago with one truck. I did however have a sidewalk crew of 3. They did all of the walks and cleared the garage doors.
Is there any way you can team up with the guy you sub for now to take this on? Just something to think about.


----------



## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Taking this and under performing will do more harm to your fledgling business and will take years to recover from the bad PR ( if you can) dozens of tenants with nothing better to do than beauch about things can do.


----------



## Plowing to the 80's (1 mo ago)

I have a similar lot with same square footage, maybe a bit less walkways, sand every time and up to 10 full cleans per season. Full clean is all cars out via notice and the entire thing gets scraped.

i have a loader with an 8/13 hla blade, a 3 man handcrew with ventrac, a sander and I patrol it multiple times per storm. I have several backups for all of these things. My seasonal price is over 40k.

Not sure i could handle all that as a 1 man operation. If the lot was setup in a way that you dont have to do 200ft pushes for all the snow and you could find a shoveler you pay per event, you still shouldnt do it!!

Having said that, I would still quote it and just literally shoot for the stars in hopes you will at least learn something.

P.S. if you have no plow experience, dont think you're just gonna pull up to a lot, drop your blade and whip through it quickly. You will suck and be chasing windrows all day.


----------



## trod81 (Dec 16, 2013)

That’s a good point of harming my business name before I actually get started, if I fail to complete the job.

Makes my stomach hurt to just say “here, take this job.” Hurt more to have a bunch of Karen’s blasting me on Fakebook.

thanks for bringing that to my attention.


----------



## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

trod81 said:


> That’s a good point of harming my business name before I actually get started, if I fail to complete the job.
> 
> Makes my stomach hurt to just say “here, take this job.” Hurt more to have a bunch of Karen’s blasting me on Fakebook.
> 
> thanks for bringing that to my attention.


Plowing to the 80's is right. It would be one thing if you got asked in September. Now you have no time to line up backups/subs/equipment.


----------



## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Kvston said:


> Plowing to the 80's is right. It would be one thing if you got asked in September. Now you have no time to line up backups/subs/equipment.


Go this route: tell your contact you'd rather take over next year. Explain why. It's not smart for you to take it over mid season with your manpower/equipment already committed. Tell them you'd rather lose the job than do it wrong and make them mad. If they want you-they will wait.


----------



## Plowing to the 80's (1 mo ago)

I'll just add to this by saying I keep a close eye on the bigger lots I missed out on. Like I check them as much as my own stuff.


----------



## Shady (11 mo ago)

I will also add in addition to my original post if you are either solo or very small taking on this type of property is basically putting all your eggs in one basket unless you are going to subcontract the entire sight. Otherwise if you are going to do this with your own equipment you won’t be doing anything else and when you lose the account you just lost your entire plowing client list and will be starting from scratch.


----------

