# Snow Plow choosing please help, Dodge Ram1500



## snowleopar82 (Oct 22, 2012)

Hi guys, I have a carpet cleaning business and winter business is getting slow thats why I want to do snow removal plowing too. I am already insured and bonded company. 

I have a 2010 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4. 

I got a price for Meyer about $4400 and also I get price Western Mid-Weight, 7.5’ cost installed $4,485.00 and 3rd one is: Western 7.5’ Pro series plow. Lift kit…$395.00 + the plow $4,695.00 installed. Will be Plus NY tax. I live in CT but very close to NY, like 10 minute. 

Please I need your guys help/suggestions, which one is the best for me can work. 

Thank you, so much..

Henry


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## snowleopar82 (Oct 22, 2012)

Almost 60 views and 0 reply, come on people say some things. Any idea?


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

O.k., if your going to start plowing snow, buy a plow that you will have local support for. I would probably choose the western pro vs the others you have listed if there is a dealer near you. I had a Meyer and wasn't all that impressed. It worked but I had several times with the E60 blowing out a pump base seal and basicly had to rebuild the pump in the middle of a storm. There are lots of good plows and i have had several different brands over the years, and I really like the Snoway plows. I am on my second and both of them have really treated me well. My Blizzard plow was probably my second favorite plow, just because they are very similar to Snoway plows. Boss is also a good plow and I have had very few problems with it. GOOD LUCK to you!!


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## treefarm (Jan 10, 2010)

commercial plowing with a half ton? if i were you i'd save my truck go buy a used three-quarter ton with a plow and beat the s### out of it. Have you ever commercially plow? , i'm not saying it cannot be done but you might find out getting into a business part time is not the way to go you'll just be the part-time quick cash maker that everyone can't stand and your truck will probably break down and then your customers will call you something else. Most manufacturers will put any plow you want on a truck, i had a friend put a small v blade on a f150 so anything is possible of course he beat the heck out of the truck and it cost him more in one season to repair the truck then my F350 cost me in four years. one other thing plowing is not just about horsepower it's also about weight of the vehicle a 1 ton truck will easily push where a half ton will be knocked around just my opinion i wish you luck either direction take care


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

snowleopar82;1510465 said:


> Hi guys, I have a carpet cleaning business and winter business is getting slow thats why I want to do snow removal plowing too. I am already insured and bonded company.
> 
> I have a 2010 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4.
> 
> ...


First, that lift kit is far too expensive. Buy some Bilsteins or just get a spacer off ebay for $50.

Second - installing a plow really isn't that hard and can save you anywhere from $300-$600 if you "cash and carry" install it yourself.

Lastly - Get whatever has local support as mentioned. I'd consider a Boss plow as well since they are a little lighter and faster hydraulics. Western is a nice plow as well, I'd stay away from meyer personally.


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## jbovara (Nov 9, 2011)

If you are going to plow with that truck you should put the smallest boss poly plow on nothing larger than 7' I would bet your entire seasons profits if you plow anything more than small driveways and you get somewhere around 30" of snow you will blow your transmission for sure.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

jbovara;1511395 said:


> If you are going to plow with that truck you should put the smallest boss poly plow on nothing larger than 7' I would bet your entire seasons profits if you plow anything more than small driveways and you get somewhere around 30" of snow you will blow your transmission for sure.


Do you realize that a 7' plow will have a cut width less than the width of the truck?


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

To the OP, just go to the top of the page and click on the icons for any of the manufacturers there. Most all of them have a plow that will fit your application. Most of those aren't rated for "commercial" use though.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Harleyjeff;1511577 said:


> To the OP, just go to the top of the page and click on the icons for any of the manufacturers there. Most all of them have a plow that will fit your application. Most of those aren't rated for "commercial" use though.


Arctic snowplows suggests HD90" (heavy duty = commercial) as an option for Ram1500.


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## m00nraker (Jun 30, 2007)

I have a snowdogg md75 on my 09 1500


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

And to the OP one more time, SnowDogg's site says you can get the same plow as the poster above in an 8' model, but again, it's rated as a medium duty plow, not commercial. But there are plenty of people out there doing lots and lots of driveways and small parking lots with these plows with success.


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## jbovara (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for the correction. The state ment should be revised to reflect the fact that a light duty truck should have a light duty plow. Dog trucks are not known for there trans, and they have a tendency of blowing. I have had one doge that did that and know other people who have doge trucks who have blown stock trans. I'm just stressing the fact that in his case smaller is better.


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## m00nraker (Jun 30, 2007)

jbovara;1512133 said:


> Thanks for the correction. The state ment should be revised to reflect the fact that a light duty truck should have a light duty plow. Dog trucks are not known for there trans, and they have a tendency of blowing. I have had one doge that did that and know other people who have doge trucks who have blown stock trans. I'm just stressing the fact that in his case smaller is better.


The quality of dodge transmission really has improved since about the 03 model year when they switched from the old 46/47RE to the newer 45RFE and 545RFE transmissions.

But I again echo what everyone else has said I understand I have a 1/2 ton truck therefore i chose a plow appropriate to what im driving. Im not gonna go try to hang a 9' V blade off the front and then complain when stuff starts breaking!


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

jbovara;1512133 said:


> Thanks for the correction. The state ment should be revised to reflect the fact that a light duty truck should have a light duty plow. Dog trucks are not known for there trans, and they have a tendency of blowing. I have had one doge that did that and know other people who have doge trucks who have blown stock trans. I'm just stressing the fact that in his case smaller is better.


So let me get this straight, are they "Dog" trucks, or "doge" trucks??? Again, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Dodge transmissions have been fine for nearly ten years now. As a matter of fact, all of the "big three" all have solid transmissions and engines nowadays, whether it be gas or diesel, half-ton or bigger. You should stop giving advice and spreading misinformation and start reading and learning!


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## tommydimples (Mar 20, 2011)

*plow*

i have the same truck with a western HTC + I put strobes in the 4 corners= $5,000. then had to do the lift kit for $250.


snowleopar82;1510465 said:


> Hi guys, I have a carpet cleaning business and winter business is getting slow thats why I want to do snow removal plowing too. I am already insured and bonded company.
> 
> I have a 2010 Dodge Ram 1500 4x4.
> 
> ...


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## tommydimples (Mar 20, 2011)

did u do a lift kit on the frontend ?????


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

My guy plows with a chevy 1500 and uses a western 7 1/2 ft plow. 

Works fine for him and has had no problems with the plow for the last 3 years.

His truck on the other hand, replaced bearings, joints, etc... after two years.

The 7 1/2 is good for tight spots. 

Also good for doing driveways.

But stick with driveways and very small parking lots, you well find in a really heavy snowfall that unless your out there moving that snow quickly your going to get bogged up and unable to move it if it gets too high.

One last thing, while you may be insured for carpet cleaning, that insurance might not cover you for plowing, you better check it out.


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## snowleopar82 (Oct 22, 2012)

tommydimples;1513168 said:


> did u do a lift kit on the frontend ?????


Yes I'm getting that..

BTW thank you all guys.. It was really helpful.


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## snowleopar82 (Oct 22, 2012)

Thank you so much every one, I get Western HT. Look good, but I get busy with my carpet cleaning business. I try to sale it..

Link is here, if any body interested..

http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/cto/3418879576.html


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Western wide out, fisher xls or POWER PLOW® Snow Plow

or even better, but with more work, a straight blade with box extensions.

but here is the trick. most people will straighten their inside wing when windrowing, common mistake even western advertises.

leave your blade in scoop mode while windrowing. what this means is while you have your blade pushing left, you have an extension pushing snow FORWARD. when you do this all of the inertia from that extension pushing forward gathers up in the snow and pushes it forward.

when i windrow with my extensions, jsut before i get to the pile, i see a big gush of snow go up over the pile.

it can save 40 percent of your time compared to a straight blade. in my opinion there is NO other way.

the ones i mention probably arnt as efficient as my custom built extensions, but you can retract them without getting out of the truck, which is nice for going up to curbs and garages. tho ill be building mine to tuck behind the plow.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

i think we just got took on a ride...... noone is going to buy a brand new 4000 plow and put it on craigs list the same day.....


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

By the sound of OP's posts, CHINESE. Probably selling knockoff plows.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

jasonv;1521729 said:


> By the sound of OP's posts, CHINESE. Probably selling knockoff plows.


"Chinese", really? And I'm sure there's just a HUGE market for knockoff plows out there!


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Harleyjeff;1521875 said:


> "Chinese", really? And I'm sure there's just a HUGE market for knockoff plows out there!


Not bashing the chinese, just saying because the spelling and grammar errors are consistent with a translation from chinese.


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## brightlawn368 (Nov 29, 2012)

I have plowed with an 08 dodge ram 1500 for 2 years no issues and then now I have a 2010 dodge ram 1500 with same plow now 5 years old. It is a sport duty 7.5 ft plow I also run a 1 ton salter in bed and have never had issues with plow or truck. The new rams are tough because front bumpers are very low.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

So having a low front bumper makes a truck tough???? I'm hearing more and more stupid **** lately.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

brightlawn368;1524292 said:


> I have plowed with an 08 dodge ram 1500 for 2 years no issues and then now I have a 2010 dodge ram 1500 with same plow now 5 years old. It is a sport duty 7.5 ft plow I also run a 1 ton salter in bed and have never had issues with plow or truck. The new rams are tough because front bumpers are very low.


You Sir, should shut your mouth, and look at what you're saying, because that is some stupid **** that you've mentioned!


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Harleyjeff;1524362 said:


> You Sir, should shut your mouth, and look at what you're saying, because that is some stupid **** that you've mentioned!


Was that really worthy of you posting effectively the same thing twice in the same thread on two separate days?


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

jasonv;1524486 said:


> Was that really worthy of you posting effectively the same thing twice in the same thread on two separate days?


Was that really worth it of YOU posting that? You just joined, but have a whole lot of posts since joining. Do you even have a job, or do you just sit around here posting smart-assed, offensive posts all day long?


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## brightlawn368 (Nov 29, 2012)

brightlawn368;1524292 said:


> I have plowed with an 08 dodge ram 1500 for 2 years no issues and then now I have a 2010 dodge ram 1500 with same plow now 5 years old. It is a sport duty 7.5 ft plow I also run a 1 ton salter in bed and have never had issues with plow or truck. The new rams are tough because front bumpers are very low.


Didn't mean the truck itself is tough. Its tough to find a mount that doesn't sit low to the ground. Appreciate the smart comments though.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

brightlawn368;1524718 said:


> Didn't mean the truck itself is tough. Its tough to find a mount that doesn't sit low to the ground. Appreciate the smart comments though.


The factory made a mount that fits your truck perfectly. there are regulations as to where the bumper and plow mount are positioned. if yours is too low you need to head back to yoru dealer because they did something wrong. if its an ultra mount you shouldnt hardly even see it.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

the new dodge bumpers are kidna dumb tho. they are trying to make trucks look like sports cars. although not as bad as ford having more chromed metal than unchromed metal


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

There is so much fail in this thread I wouldn't even know where to start.

Wideout/XLS on a 1500, 2yd salters on a 1500, bumpers making the truck tough, buying and selling plows like it's a game, and people in general just running their mouth like their experts.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

whats wrong with a wide out on a 1500?


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

birddseedd;1524810 said:


> whats wrong with a wide out on a 1500?


O I'm not sure. Maybe that it's a 950lb snowplow designed for 3/4+ ton trucks.


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## 2006Sierra1500 (Dec 28, 2011)

Mark wins.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

i didnt realize we were getting points, but i could get the front end measured and see if there is enough support for that much weight.

it would sink down pretty far but im sure it woudl be plenty within 3900 lbs


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## 2006Sierra1500 (Dec 28, 2011)

Could rant, should rant, won't rant.

You need to factor in the strength of the transmission, springs, axles, hubs, ball joints, load range of the tires, brakes, AND frame strength. Probably forgetting something but who cares


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

2006Sierra1500;1524893 said:


> Could rant, should rant, won't rant.
> 
> You need to factor in the strength of the transmission, springs, axles, hubs, ball joints, load range of the tires, brakes, AND frame strength. Probably forgetting something but who cares


a dodge 1500 can pull 13000 lbs. pretty sure transmission will do it.

yes you will wear out your ball joins and other suspension parts faster, but a few pushes will pay for that for a long time. in fact i have a wheel bearing that needs to be replaced. thatl be a quick 170 bucks


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

its all a numbers game anyway. its rated to hold 3900 lbs. 3900 lbs - the front weight of the truck - tools and driver, if the number is 940 lbs less mount weight then it is legally and mechanically designed to hold the weight. 940 is quite a bit tho. if it can hold it itl be pretty dang close.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

yes you will wear out your ball joins and other suspension parts faster, but a few pushes will pay for that for a long time. in fact i have a wheel bearing that needs to be replaced. thatl be a quick 170 bucks 
__________________
true,,,so all the money you make in one event,,,,,,will that make up for you buying a new truck b/c you just broke yours in half in one parking lot, or doing your first driveway???


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

you know good and well itl take more than 5 minutes to wear out ball joins. esspicialy when those ball joins are designed to hold that ammount of weight.


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

Your are so stupid it's mentally draining to read your posts.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Mark13;1524925 said:


> Your are so stupid it's mentally draining to read your posts.


Love this post, I lol'd and my kids looked at me wondering what was going on haha


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

you know good and well itl take more than 5 minutes to wear out ball joins. esspicialy when those ball joins are designed to hold that ammount of weight
-----not the point of 5 mins will not wear out your ball joints,,but 5mins over a night of plowing with a wideout or xls will. you know as well as us your truck cant handle it. your already saying you need keys for your bars,,,what are you gunna need for a 900 plow??


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

With 3.92 Axle Ratio Axle Ratio _ You Can Tow 8600 lbs
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)  = 6650 lbs
Payload  = 1393 lbs
Curb Weight  = 5257 lbs
Curb Weight Front/Rear = 3035 lbs/3035 lbs
GAWR Front/Rear  = 3900 lbs/3900 lbs
Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR)  = 14000 lbs

published directly by the manufacturer

gvwr is 6650
curb weight is 5257.

this means the vehicle by itself is designed by Chrysler to hold 1393 lbs

940 lbs,,,, is less than 1393 lbs.... the truck can carry that amount of weight. it is designed to do so by the engineers that built it and is rated by government regulation to do so.

is it ideal. probably not. will it work and work safely. according to the DOT and manufacturer it will._


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Your math is off bud. Each axle is only rated for so much.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1524934 said:


> you know good and well itl take more than 5 minutes to wear out ball joins. esspicialy when those ball joins are designed to hold that ammount of weight
> -----not the point of 5 mins will not wear out your ball joints,,but 5mins over a night of plowing with a wideout or xls will. you know as well as us your truck cant handle it. your already saying you need keys for your bars,,,what are you gunna need for a 900 plow??


I want keys just to level out the truck so my plow will have a little more clearance. scraps the road a little if im comming from a real steep slope from a parking lot.

also keep in mind my plow has had alot added to it. including wings back drag blad and a setup that uses more metal for hte mount than is actualy needed, random pieces and what not i didnt bother to cut off.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

plowguy43;1524942 said:


> Your math is off bud. Each axle is only rated for so much.


rated for 3900 lbs. as iv said earlier you would want to measure the weight before deciding..

which is what i did when i decided not to cary a salt spreadder.

and frankly i could have carried the spreader, just wouldn't be able to carry enough salt to not have to drive back and forth.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

940 lbs,,,, is less than 1393 lbs.... the truck can carry that amount of weight. it is designed to do so by the engineers that built it and is rated by government regulation to do so.
---yea in the bed,,not hanging off the front of the tk. i never saw a pickup bed in the front of the tk.
what does your engine weigh?? theres issues right there,,,radiator,(s),,,,fluid?? that all eats up weight. so your ft axle might have a rating of 3900lbs,,,but what is left over after you factor all the above?
not enough for a wideout


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1524973 said:


> 940 lbs,,,, is less than 1393 lbs.... the truck can carry that amount of weight. it is designed to do so by the engineers that built it and is rated by government regulation to do so.
> ---yea in the bed,,not hanging off the front of the tk. i never saw a pickup bed in the front of the tk.
> what does your engine weigh?? theres issues right there,,,radiator,(s),,,,fluid?? that all eats up weight. so your ft axle might have a rating of 3900lbs,,,but what is left over after you factor all the above?
> not enough for a wideout


possibly not, but itl be close. the back weighs 2280. not sure about the front. will be a bit more.

either way, i do know one thing. ill never be getting a half ton again. itl be 1 ton or 4 cyl from now on.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Keys won't do more then cracking the stock "keys" if your bars are already maxxed out


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

plowguy43;1524981 said:


> Keys won't do more then cracking the stock "keys" if your bars are already maxxed out


not sure what you mean. the stock ones get replaced with ones with a longer throw so the suspension can be stiffened up.

can you clarify?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

either way, i do know one thing. ill never be getting a half ton again. itl be 1 ton or 4 cyl from now on. 
__________________go with a 4 cylinder,,itll be easier


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1525003 said:


> either way, i do know one thing. ill never be getting a half ton again. itl be 1 ton or 4 cyl from now on.
> __________________go with a 4 cylinder,,itll be easier


its easier on gas thats for sure. even if you caint quite get over 60 mph pulling a small trailer.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Aftermarket keys are re-indexed, they don't have a longer "throw". Your torsion bars only have so much adjustment and most Dodges will max out the adjustment by cranking the stock key/tightening the bolt no requiring an Aftermarket key.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

plowguy43;1525014 said:


> Aftermarket keys are re-indexed, they don't have a longer "throw". Your torsion bars only have so much adjustment and most Dodges will max out the adjustment by cranking the stock key/tightening the bolt no requiring an Aftermarket key.


i don't really know alot about it. all i knwo is i can replace what i have with aftermarket allowing me to tighten the torsion bar tighter thus stiffening it and lifting a couple inches.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

You can do it for free. Tighten the bolts a few turns


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

plowguy43;1525024 said:


> You can do it for free. Tighten the bolts a few turns


maxed out. why i need aftermarket ones


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Harleyjeff;1524669 said:


> Was that really worth it of YOU posting that? You just joined, but have a whole lot of posts since joining. Do you even have a job, or do you just sit around here posting smart-assed, offensive posts all day long?


And we have a perfect example of why it is a very bad idea to do drugs.
Get a life.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1524903 said:


> its all a numbers game anyway. its rated to hold 3900 lbs. 3900 lbs - the front weight of the truck - tools and driver, if the number is 940 lbs less mount weight then it is legally and mechanically designed to hold the weight. 940 is quite a bit tho. if it can hold it itl be pretty dang close.


There is actually a bit more to do with it than just the total weight that the front axle is rated to hold. That number only actually applies to loads placed directly over the front axle, like the engine. A plow is cantilevered out a considerable distance from the front axle. If you measure the actual weights on the front and rear axle, you will find that if your plow weighs 500 pounds, it actually loads your front axle by MORE than 500 pounds. Probably closer to 1000. So if your plow weighs close to 1000 pounds, you're going to be looking at adding 1500-2000 pounds load to the front axle.

When you lift your plow, do you notice that the truck REAR lifts up? Because it is cantilevered out from the front, it lifts up on the BACK of the truck. Every pound lifted from the rear axle is added to the front, in addition to the weight of the plow itself.

Now if you want to compensate for this, you need to add weight to the back. Not directly over the axle, mind you, but it will actually have to be cantilevered out from the back the same as the plow is cantilevered out past the front. This would transfer the weight back to the rear axle. The side-effect of THIS, however, is that you will be adding a twisting force over the full length of the frame. Note that the frame is designed to accept forces lengthwise and DOWN, with even distribution. It isn't intended to take cantilevered forces to such extremes. Especially the front part of the frame.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1524938 said:


> this means the vehicle by itself is designed by Chrysler to hold 1393 lbs


1393 pounds, distributed evenly over the rear portion of the frame above the rear axle.



> 940 lbs,,,, is less than 1393 lbs.... the truck can carry that amount of weight. it is designed to do so by the engineers that built it and is rated by government regulation to do so.


Which means that yes, you can put the plow in the truck's BED and drive around with it. In fact, you can start a plow delivery service. Your truck can do it.

So can my Tacoma, which is rated for a higher payload than your Dodge RAM. Now I'll tell you very simply, if I put a 940 pound plow on the front of my Tacoma and tried to lift it, instead of lifting the plow, it would lift the rear wheels off the ground.



> is it ideal. probably not. will it work and work safely. according to the DOT and manufacturer it will.


See my other posts here about why that is not at all correct. At best, you get your vehicle impounded. At worst, you break something catastrophically and somebody dies because of it.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525372 said:


> 1393 pounds, distributed evenly over the rear portion of the frame above the rear axle.
> 
> Which means that yes, you can put the plow in the truck's BED and drive around with it. In fact, you can start a plow delivery service. Your truck can do it.
> 
> ...


do we really have to go back to this crap? you know good and well my truck is not going to snap in half. noone is going to die. you are being obsured.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Thx Jason. That's where I was trying to go with the whole weight ideas,,,,just had a mental block,, don't know why I did tho. Kinda odd ??


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525011 said:


> its easier on gas thats for sure. even if you caint quite get over 60 mph pulling a small trailer.


You'd actually be surprised what you can do with a good 4-cyl. Try holding 70 mph with a BIG trailer (6000+ pounds) UP a moderate grade in 4th gear. Yeah, I could see it being a bit more struggle at higher altitudes in the mountains, but at an elevation of 600 feet and rolling hills, I regularly pull around a flat bed (home made tandem about 2000 pounds) with a 3000 pound tractor and 1000 pounds of implements. A good modern 4-cyl is about on par with an early-mid 80's V8. The 4-cyl engine Toyota uses in Tacoma was designed for a BUS.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525030 said:


> maxed out. why i need aftermarket ones


The reason why there is a limitation on how far you can adjust them, is that if you go farther than that and then bottom out your front suspension, you will actually add a permanent twist to the bars. There is only so far that you can bend/twist the metal and have it spring back.

If you want to tighten up your front suspension more, you are going to need to have custom thicker torsion bars manufactured for you custom. Alternatively, you may be able to get away with air shocks or timbrens bump stops, or something.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525379 said:


> You'd actually be surprised what you can do with a good 4-cyl. Try holding 70 mph with a BIG trailer (6000+ pounds) UP a moderate grade in 4th gear. Yeah, I could see it being a bit more struggle at higher altitudes in the mountains, but at an elevation of 600 feet and rolling hills, I regularly pull around a flat bed (home made tandem about 2000 pounds) with a 3000 pound tractor and 1000 pounds of implements. A good modern 4-cyl is about on par with an early-mid 80's V8. The 4-cyl engine Toyota uses in Tacoma was designed for a BUS.


im not stuipd dude.... my first truck was an 86 c10. iv also owned a 4 cyl sanoma... there is no comparison....... my c10 could pull down a house. empty trailer with the tailgate up i couldnt even hit 70 with the sanoma.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525384 said:


> The reason why there is a limitation on how far you can adjust them, is that if you go farther than that and then bottom out your front suspension, you will actually add a permanent twist to the bars. There is only so far that you can bend/twist the metal and have it spring back.
> 
> If you want to tighten up your front suspension more, you are going to need to have custom thicker torsion bars manufactured for you custom. Alternatively, you may be able to get away with air shocks or timbrens bump stops, or something.


If i was doing more than 2 inches i woudl agree. more like 6 inches (say if someone was trying to use it as a truck lift or somethig) and you could do dammage. all i am doing is stiffining the suspension.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Sanoma,,,,Tacoma. 2 totally different tks. Gm vers Toyota


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

But something is wrong if your already maxed out is what Jason is saying


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1525389 said:


> Sanoma,,,,Tacoma. 2 totally different tks. Gm vers Toyota


still same class with roughly the same horsepower. none of which can even come close to an engine with twice the displacement


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525374 said:


> do we really have to go back to this crap? you know good and well my truck is not going to snap in half. noone is going to die. you are being obsured.


Well unfortunately, you have unreasonable expectations for your vehicle. I do understand the pride involved in it. You made the decision to buy that vehicle because you liked it. There is, however, a limitation with respect to how far you can push it before you exceed its capabilities. It probably won't snap in half the first time you lift the plow, but the frequent loading and unloading will weaken the metal over time. Eventually it will give out, probably when you're crusing on the highway at 60+ and drive through a whoop in the road, or over an expansion joint on a bridge. It's suddenly going to twist up in the middle, you'll find yourself looking at the road with the plow scraping in front of you. Your brake line will break when the frame bends up, and you'll loose all control.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1525390 said:


> But something is wrong if your already maxed out is what Jason is saying


Its not really wrong. newer half ton trucks are designed for a smooth ride. not for working. thats why you need things like leveling kits if you want to haul loads without it sinking.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Same class of tks sure. But that's where it all ends. The Japanese technology can push out so much hp from a 4 cylinder that detroit can outta a 8 cylinder. So until you drive a yota don't assume you know. I have driven both and the yota has more hp then a Sonoma


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525385 said:


> im not stuipd dude.... my first truck was an 86 c10. iv also owned a 4 cyl sanoma... there is no comparison....... my c10 could pull down a house. empty trailer with the tailgate up i couldnt even hit 70 with the sanoma.


Well guess what? My last truck before the Tacoma was an S10 (aka S*o*noma) ZR2 with the 4.3. The Tacoma 2.7 has a little less power on top, but WAY better low end. The GM could barely get out of its own way and I sure wouldn't be trying to pull more than about 2500 pounds with it.

Totally different animals.

My second truck is a C20 with the 350. Rated the SAME horsepower as the Tacoma, and in practice, is only larger.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

They also have weight limits. AMD I'm assuming your exceeding yours


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525387 said:


> If i was doing more than 2 inches i woudl agree. more like 6 inches (say if someone was trying to use it as a truck lift or somethig) and you could do dammage. all i am doing is stiffining the suspension.


It doesn't matter how FAR you're going, the problem is that you are stiffening it by PRELOADING the bar. Even if you don't go up at all, your remaining suspension travel, whatever that is, will twist the bar permanently. There is a limit to how far you can twist it before that twist remains permanently. If you do what you are proposing, it will look fine, you'll take it on a drive, hit a couple of bumps, and when you get back, it will be sitting lower again.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)




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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Lmao.... That's funny, I don't care who u are that's funny right there


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

jasonv;1525372 said:


> So can my Tacoma, which is rated for a higher payload than your Dodge RAM. Now I'll tell you very simply, if I put a 940 pound plow on the front of my Tacoma and tried to lift it, instead of lifting the plow, it would lift the rear wheels off the ground.


Heck the Honda Ridgeline had a higher load capacity rating when it came out that any of the US 1/2 tons but I'd hate to see what happened if you hung a plow on it.**

Birdseed, a leveling kit only raises the front of the truck it does not stiffen or enhance your suspension. You should look into upgrading to heavier T-bars.

**A truck magazine testing showed while the US truck's 0 to 60 times slowed marginally between max load and unload the Hondas slowed significantly.

60 to 0 test had most of the us trucks braking in SHORTER distances while the Ridgeline took 60+% longer.

the conclusion by the author stated simply the US manufacturers took in to account the truck being loaded all the time and needing to perform as well loaded as empty while Honda did not.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525405 said:


> It doesn't matter how FAR you're going, the problem is that you are stiffening it by PRELOADING the bar. Even if you don't go up at all, your remaining suspension travel, whatever that is, will twist the bar permanently. There is a limit to how far you can twist it before that twist remains permanently. If you do what you are proposing, it will look fine, you'll take it on a drive, hit a couple of bumps, and when you get back, it will be sitting lower again.


yes, you are correct. thats why hundreds of thousands of people have done it without the problem you describe.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525391 said:


> still same class with roughly the same horsepower. none of which can even come close to an engine with twice the displacement


Looks like you're in need of a little lesson on engines.
Take a look at the engines that GM was offering in their vehicles in.. the 80's. Specifically, look at the 350 V8. What amounted to effectively the same engine was given different power and torque ratings depending on what vehicle it was installed in. For a pickup application, it would be rated 165 hp. For a sports car, something around 300.

The engines were not identical, of course, some of the parts were different. Most importantly, the CAM SHAFTS. By altering the cam profiles, you could dramatically affect the engine's power and torque characteristics. The problem was, that you would be limited to a single cam profile in that engine. The truck cams were built around the need to engage a clutch at low speeds to pull a heavy load. It would need high torque at the low end in order to get a load rolling. In contrast, a sports car is relatively light weight and is not expected to vary more than a couple of hundred pounds operating. It doesn't need much torque at the low end, it just needs to wind up to make high power and go fast.

All of those engines that you're familiar with, the old GM 4-cyl, the 8-cyl, the 6-cyls even... had SINGLE CAMS designed to operate within the "most important" range that that particular vehicle would experience.

SINCE THEN, and this is a development that has been in progress for some time, but mostly used on light cars, you might be familiar with things like VTEC, or VVT. What these do, is they effectively bring MULTIPLE CAM PROFILES into the same engine. That allows the same engine to produce great low-end torque, great high-end power, and optimize fuel economy throughout.

That old 4-cyl GM that you know about.. you know, I'm looking through the engines that GM has equipped S10/sonoma with, and for 4-cyls, up to MY1993, the best horsepower made was 105 hp. After MY1993 until the last 4-cyl, they peaked at 120 hp. And that's with a torque curve that looked like mount everest.

Tacoma 2.7 is 165 hp (downrated to 159 MY2006 due to different power correction schemes, which also applied to GM at that time, so it is 165 relative to older vehicles), and has a torque curve that looks like Iowa.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525414 said:


> yes, you are correct. thats why hundreds of thousands of people have done it without the problem you describe.


1) I don't think they've even sold that many trucks.
2) Most people wouldn't admit to it.
3) The damn things bend even when you DON'T overload them. The only reason they're adjustable is because they continually settle throughout their lifetime and occasionally need to be bumped up to maintain the same ride level. The more you stress them, the faster they settle, right up to instantaneous when you go too far.

Also, those people who adjust them for lift also do other modifications, like moving down the bump stops to limit how far the front end can compress. They also don't add more weight to the front end to squeeze at them.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525425 said:


> 1) I don't think they've even sold that many trucks.
> 2) Most people wouldn't admit to it.
> 3) The damn things bend even when you DON'T overload them. The only reason they're adjustable is because they continually settle throughout their lifetime and occasionally need to be bumped up to maintain the same ride level. The more you stress them, the faster they settle, right up to instantaneous when you go too far.
> 
> Also, those people who adjust them for lift also do other modifications, like *moving down the bump stops* to limit how far the front end can compress. They also don't add more weight to the front end to squeeze at them.


that is an interesting solution. although i worry about all of that weight being pushed directly into my frame when the plow is up. i basically would not have a suspension at that point. wouldn't that cause avers effects doing it on a continual basis?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

No not on.your tk. Just others. You'll be fine bird


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1525447 said:


> No not on.your tk. Just others. You'll be fine bird


I think ill wait for jasons response. thank you


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Oh mine wasn't good enough. Why not. It's what you want to hear. You have the best equipment, all logic doesn't apply to you or your tk, your 1500 dodge can haul, tow, and plow more then a 3/4 ton. So if you wanna hear that your tk can do it fine your tk can do whatever it wants to do in outter space where there's no gravity. Bahabaha


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

jasonv;1525384 said:


> The reason why there is a limitation on how far you can adjust them, is that if you go farther than that and then bottom out your front suspension, you will actually add a permanent twist to the bars. There is only so far that you can bend/twist the metal and have it spring back.


This! All you are doing when cranking the Torsion bars (by keys or stock bolts) is changing how soon they max out - this gives you the "stiffer" feeling in the ride. Sure you are altering the ride height because the bar is twisting your lower control arm, but the stiffness is because you are maxxing the bar's travel, which eventually will wear out.



birddseedd;1525387 said:


> If i was doing more than 2 inches i woudl agree. more like 6 inches (say if someone was trying to use it as a truck lift or somethig) and you could do dammage. all i am doing is stiffining the suspension.


It doesn't last, see my above post and yes Jason is correct.



dieselss;1525390 said:


> But something is wrong if your already maxed out is what Jason is saying


Bam yet again correct


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525443 said:


> that is an interesting solution. although i worry about all of that weight being pushed directly into my frame when the plow is up. i basically would not have a suspension at that point. wouldn't that cause avers effects doing it on a continual basis?


Wouldn't work for you. That would be something that people using the torsion bar keying for LIFT could do. The most similar option you have available is a set of timbrens, which are basically just much bigger bump stops.

When you crank the torsion bars, the front of the vehicle raises relative to the ground. It doesn't actually tension them more unless you add additional load. You're adding load with the plow. Those using it for lift are NOT adding additional load, but instead it is moving the suspension into a "lighter" stage in its range. The problem is that if they hit a bump too hard, it will force the torsion bars beyond their limits, so moving the bump stop will prevent it from twisting too much.

I am firm in stating that your two options for stiffening the front end of your truck are timbrens (crappy solution) or custom torsion bars with a higher than stock rate.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

dieselss;1525487 said:


> Oh mine wasn't good enough. Why not. It's what you want to hear. You have the best equipment, all logic doesn't apply to you or your tk, your 1500 dodge can haul, tow, and plow more then a 3/4 ton. So if you wanna hear that your tk can do it fine your tk can do whatever it wants to do in outter space where there's no gravity. Bahabaha


--- except actually run, since there is no oxygen. :laughing:


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525505 said:


> Wouldn't work for you. That would be something that people using the torsion bar keying for LIFT could do. The most similar option you have available is a set of timbrens, which are basically just much bigger bump stops.
> 
> When you crank the torsion bars, the front of the vehicle raises relative to the ground. It doesn't actually tension them more unless you add additional load. You're adding load with the plow. Those using it for lift are NOT adding additional load, but instead it is moving the suspension into a "lighter" stage in its range. The problem is that if they hit a bump too hard, it will force the torsion bars beyond their limits, so moving the bump stop will prevent it from twisting too much.
> 
> I am firm in stating that your two options for stiffening the front end of your truck are timbrens (crappy solution) or custom torsion bars with a higher than stock rate.


any place you reccommend to look into the price of torsion bars.

timbrins and 3rd party keys are about the same cost for me.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

Imagine the capable and decent 3/4 ton you could have if you stopped dumping money into this beat 1/2 ton. 

I'd cut the plow off, clean the frame where it was, clean the truck, and go find a mom and pop dealer to do a trade on a plow equipped 3/4 or 1 ton while hoping they don't notice the damage you did to this truck. Even if you went in on a trade for a 15-20 year old 3/4 or 1 ton, it would be worth it to get out of this 1/2 ton. The value lost on your truck from the mods you've done is real. 

This is what 99.9% of us on here would do.......


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

jasonv;1525505 said:


> timbrens (crappy solution)


What leads you to say this??? I love my Timbrens and wouldn't ever plow with out them on a half ton again.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525509 said:


> any place you reccommend to look into the price of torsion bars.
> 
> timbrins and 3rd party keys are about the same cost for me.


Well timbrens are a much better option than the keys.

As far as the torsion bars, I've never purchased any, I don't even know if anybody makes them for your vehicle. Nothing I drive now even HAS torsion bars. Perhaps there is a RAM 2500 or 3500 that has compatible torsion bars?

There's this place sway-a-way that sells torsion bars, but your vehicle isn't listed on their website. Maybe contact them and inquire whether they know where you could get them, or maybe make custom ones for you.

http://www.swayaway.com/TorsionBars.php


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Plowtoy;1525518 said:


> What leads you to say this??? I love my Timbrens and wouldn't ever plow with out them on a half ton again.


They're a hack. Better than nothing, but the proper way to go about this is to actually replace the springs with ones of a higher rate.

There are a total of four possibilities;
- Crank the torsion bars (worst) or "spacer lift" for coil-over type suspension,
- timbrens or similar (crappy, but better than cranking the torsion bars),
- air shocks (IF the shock mounts are strong enough for this, not a bad solution),
- Higher rate springs (correct/best).


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

Banksy;1525512 said:


> Imagine the capable and decent 3/4 ton you could have if you stopped dumping money into this beat 1/2 ton.
> 
> I'd cut the plow off, clean the frame where it was, clean the truck, and go find a mom and pop dealer to do a trade on a plow equipped 3/4 or 1 ton while hoping they don't notice the damage you did to this truck. Even if you went in on a trade for a 15-20 year old 3/4 or 1 ton, it would be worth it to get out of this 1/2 ton. The value lost on your truck from the mods you've done is real.
> 
> This is what 99.9% of us on here would do.......


Agreed, or hope a tree fell on it.



jasonv;1525519 said:


> Well timbrens are a much better option than the keys.
> 
> As far as the torsion bars, I've never purchased any, I don't even know if anybody makes them for your vehicle. Nothing I drive now even HAS torsion bars. *Perhaps there is a RAM 2500 or 3500 that has compatible torsion bars?*There's this place sway-a-way that sells torsion bars, but your vehicle isn't listed on their website. Maybe contact them and inquire whether they know where you could get them, or maybe make custom ones for you.
> 
> http://www.swayaway.com/TorsionBars.php


The 2500/3500's use coils and aren't compatible, too bad though.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

Banksy;1525512 said:


> Imagine the capable and decent 3/4 ton you could have if you stopped dumping money into this beat 1/2 ton.
> 
> I'd cut the plow off, clean the frame where it was, clean the truck, and go find a mom and pop dealer to do a trade on a plow equipped 3/4 or 1 ton while hoping they don't notice the damage you did to this truck. Even if you went in on a trade for a 15-20 year old 3/4 or 1 ton, it would be worth it to get out of this 1/2 ton. The value lost on your truck from the mods you've done is real.
> 
> This is what 99.9% of us on here would do.......


iv' tried. i just dont have the income right now so i have to make due with what i have.

and the only modification iv made to the truck is adding the mount. which infact increases the value of hte truck. but not enough to make up for hte high interest rate im paying.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

birddseedd;1525533 said:


> iv' tried. i just dont have the income right now so i have to make due with what i have.
> 
> and the only modification iv made to the truck is adding the mount. *which infact increases the value of hte truck*. but not enough to make up for hte high interest rate im paying.


Without including the plow (which is actually meant for the truck) it will more then likely decrease the value. If you include the plow, you may get a tad more.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

plowguy43;1525537 said:


> Without including the plow (which is actually meant for the truck) it will more then likely decrease the value. If you include the plow, you may get a tad more.


How woudl a plow mount decrease the value?


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525533 said:


> iv' tried. i just dont have the income right now so i have to make due with what i have.
> 
> and the only modification iv made to the truck is adding the mount. which infact increases the value of hte truck. but not enough to make up for hte high interest rate im paying.


Knowing what I know about plowing, if a vehicle I was thinking of buying showed ANY SIGN of having been used for plowing, I'd avoid it like the plague.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

birddseedd;1525545 said:


> How woudl a plow mount decrease the value?


See below:



jasonv;1525547 said:


> Knowing what I know about plowing, if a vehicle I was thinking of buying showed ANY SIGN of having been used for plowing, I'd avoid it like the plague.


He shares the opinion with the majority of truck purchasers. Same thing applies to trucks with goosenecks and 5th wheels.


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

jasonv;1525526 said:


> They're a hack. Better than nothing, but the proper way to go about this is to actually replace the springs with ones of a higher rate.
> 
> There are a total of four possibilities;
> - Crank the torsion bars (worst) or "spacer lift" for coil-over type suspension,
> ...


I guess we are all welcome to our own opinions.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

The *PROPER* plow may add a little value. Key word...*PROPER*. A dealer won't even take that truck with that thing welded on there. Plow truck values are in the eye of the beholder. Plows turn a lot of people off, but some will pay a little more for the convenience of having it already on.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

Plowtoy;1525549 said:


> I guess we are all welcome to our own opinions.


I'm not saying they're all bad. They are better than other approaches suggested in this thread. There is just a BETTER way.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

plowguy43;1525548 said:


> See below:
> 
> He shares the opinion with the majority of truck purchasers. Same thing applies to trucks with goosenecks and 5th wheels.


i suppose that is logical.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

All that arguing and guess what bird,,,you were wrong. So know where did that get you huh ?? Theres ay least 2 pages that are you arguing it out that could have been avoided if you would just shut up and take the advise pple with the RIGHT knowledge are giving you


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1525574 said:


> All that arguing and guess what bird,,,you were wrong. So know where did that get you huh ?? Theres ay least 2 pages that are you arguing it out that could have been avoided if you would just shut up and take the advise pple with the RIGHT knowledge are giving you


say that after you weigh a stock ram on the front and know EXACTLY how many lbs you have left.

because up to htis point its all your opinion with no actual facts.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525579 said:


> say that after you weigh a stock ram on the front and know EXACTLY how many lbs you have left.
> 
> because up to htis point its all your opinion with no actual facts.


Ok then, THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO DO;

Buy 500 pounds worth of SAND BAGS. Hang them over the top edge of your existing plow and lift it up. Measure the weight on the front wheels. See what it is.

Now remember that it doesn't just have to hold the plow up while sitting in one place, it has to drive down the road with it. That means hitting whoops and bumps, etc., and it has to STILL not break anything. So what you can do to measure the force IN THIS circumstance, is hook a chain hoist to your lift frame and raise the front of the truck so that the wheels are about 1-1.5 feet ABOVE HE GROUND. Use BOLT CUTTERS to cut the chain, allowing the truck to drop down. Measure the FORCE that the truck hits the ground with. If that number is absurd, or your back wheels lift off the ground, or something breaks in your front suspension, or your frame breaks in half, then you can't support 1000 pounds of plow.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

birddseedd;1525579 said:


> say that after you weigh a stock ram on the front and know EXACTLY how many lbs you have left.
> 
> because up to htis point its all your opinion with no actual facts.


All of the plow manufacturers have done this for you already, which is why certain trucks are rated for certain plows (legally). I don't doubt your truck would "hold" an XLS, but you'd be sitting on your bump stop about to break something - my Vplow is as heavy as one and my 3/4 ton squats an inch or so with it. Its a very heavy plow.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525599 said:


> Ok then, THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO DO;
> 
> Buy 500 pounds worth of SAND BAGS. Hang them over the top edge of your existing plow and lift it up. Measure the weight on the front wheels. See what it is.
> 
> Now remember that it doesn't just have to hold the plow up while sitting in one place, it has to drive down the road with it. That means hitting whoops and bumps, etc., and it has to STILL not break anything. So what you can do to measure the force IN THIS circumstance, is hook a chain hoist to your lift frame and raise the front of the truck so that the wheels are about 1-1.5 feet ABOVE HE GROUND. Use BOLT CUTTERS to cut the chain, allowing the truck to drop down. Measure the FORCE that the truck hits the ground with. If that number is absurd, or your back wheels lift off the ground, or something breaks in your front suspension, or your frame breaks in half, then you can't support 1000 pounds of plow.


I dont have a hoist.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525603 said:


> I dont have a hoist.


Much cheaper than how much your insurance will go up by when you crash it.

Edit: and you weren't supposed to actually think about that experiment, just about how silly it would be to try. Just do the sand bag part and measure the weight statically.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Thank you guys. And birdie,, you started this by saying you wanted a wideout, or an xls. Donald Douglas already proved you CAN'T do this on a dodge 1500. So I say again why did you have to keep arguing a mute point ??


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

yall do bring up a good point with wearing my bars out faster. and while i know good and well its not goign to happen in 5 minutes like was stated here. it will go faster. if we get any snow ill probably go with timbrens, only 50 bucks more than keys. although im still not sure if itl work. need to find the length of them. i have a feeling my truck will sag but not actualy contact the timbrins. theres still lots of room left with the plow up


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1525607 said:


> Thank you guys. And birdie,, you started this by saying you wanted a wideout, or an xls. Donald Douglas already proved you CAN'T do this on a dodge 1500. So I say again why did you have to keep arguing a mute point ??


just because i want one doesnt mean i have the abilitity to get it. that is what i woudl go with (or a straight with custom wings most likely) on down the road when iv got several 1 tons out there plowing for me.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525608 said:


> yall do bring up a good point with wearing my bars out faster. and while i know good and well its not goign to happen in 5 minutes like was stated here. it will go faster. if we get any snow ill probably go with timbrens, only 50 bucks more than keys. although im still not sure if itl work. need to find the length of them. i have a feeling my truck will sag but not actualy contact the timbrins. theres still lots of room left with the plow up


The timbrens will extend the life of the overloaded torsion bars SIGNIFICANTLY.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525605 said:


> Much cheaper than how much your insurance will go up by when you crash it.
> 
> Edit: and you weren't supposed to actually think about that experiment, just about how silly it would be to try. Just do the sand bag part and measure the weight statically.


i was aware he was being facetious.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525613 said:


> just because i want one doesnt mean i have the abilitity to get it. that is what i woudl go with (or a straight with custom wings most likely) on down the road when iv got several 1 tons out there plowing for me.


MUCH more rational approach. Thumbs Up


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525615 said:


> The timbrens will extend the life of the overloaded torsion bars SIGNIFICANTLY.


that makes sense, but only if my truck sags enough to actualy use them. can i put a block inbetween the timbrins and bump stop braket?


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525619 said:


> that makes sense, *but only if my truck sags enough to actualy use them*. can i put a block inbetween the timbrins and bump stop braket?


It doesn't have to actually be sitting on them with a static load for this to help. When you drive over bumps that would compress your suspension into the "timbrens zone", they will hold the suspension further extended than it would be without them. It will prevent the torsion bars from bending so far into the "destroy" range as often.

You probably could space the timbrens out a bit if you really wanted to. I'd be inclined to use a RUBBER block if I was going to do this.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes you can. The timbrens might touch already. I would say try it first and see what happens. Might not need to do any exta work when not needed


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1525626 said:


> It doesn't have to actually be sitting on them with a static load for this to help. When you drive over bumps that would compress your suspension into the "timbrens zone", they will hold the suspension further extended than it would be without them. It will prevent the torsion bars from bending so far into the "destroy" range as often.
> 
> You probably could space the timbrens out a bit if you really wanted to. I'd be inclined to use a RUBBER block if I was going to do this.


that woudl definatly make my torsion bars last longer, but my main goal is to lift it 2 inches while under load of the plow. to give more clearance while driving and make hte plow a bit more responsive to lifting


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1525628 said:


> Yes you can. The timbrens might touch already. I would say try it first and see what happens. Might not need to do any exta work when not needed


suppose i need to get the dimensions of them so i can actualy measure what it woudl be. but honestly im probbly going to wait till i start getting paid from plowing work. since its not a neccessity.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

I would install them "normal" first. As dieselss says, it may be sitting on them already. Or, it could be "close enough" that it satisfies you without customization.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Honestly ck there website or I think some of the plow supplies carry them for the dimentions


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

i will once i get closer to buying it. tho i dont know where i woudl get a chunk of strong enough rubber if i do need to adjust them.

i do have a lift kit for a chevy. suppose i coudl use one of those blocks. they are aluminum tho


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1525647 said:


> i will once i get closer to buying it. tho i dont know where i woudl get a chunk of strong enough rubber if i do need to adjust them.
> 
> i do have a lift kit for a chevy. suppose i coudl use one of those blocks. they are aluminum tho


Piece of old conveyor belt, snowmobile track, etc.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

i was thinking about the torsion bars in bed tonight, (4:23, cant sleep); and i think we are looking at it a bit wrong.

If i buy aftermarket keys for my bars, im not actualy going to be twisting my torsion bars anymore than how they are now. If i rotate the back end of the bars, say 10 more degrees, the front end jsut the same is going to turn that exact same 10 degrees.

in either case, it is sitll holding the same weight, therefore there is no force to cause them to twist more.

on full load i still have at least 6 inches of room before i hit the bump stop. so if i turn them enough to raise the truck 2 more inches, i still dont hit the bump stop, and im still carring the same amount of weight..... the bars would not "twist", they would simply "rotate". 

all that the keys do is rotate them, its the amount of weight that causes them to twist.

when i initially turned up my torsion bars my suspension never actually got tighter, the sag i had with the default setting was the same sag that i got after turning them up. the sag just started from a higher position.

of course, i would still run into some of the same problems. my truck would sag 2 inches. only, instead of sagging from 12 to 10 inches, for example, it would sag from 14 to 12 inches.

so im still looking at timbrens if i want to eliminate that 2 inch sag. but to do this, i basically have to have the timbrens meet the swing arm with no load, meaning i wouldn't really have any sag at all with my suspension.

is this proper? seems the only way to eliminate the sag.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

have you ever used a long one piece 3/8 extention?
what happenes when you cant break that bolt loose?? you get a bigger/longer handle ratchet.
you see the extention twist,,,thats the same with your bars,,one end pretty much stays put and the other end is twisting,,,,not rotationg,,,twisting. and if you keep going you have 4 outcomes
1).the twisting action breaks the 3/8s ratchet
2) it breaks the extention, or socket
3) bolt breaks loose
4) nothing.
if 1,2,4, happen what do you do,,,get a 1/2 extention why?? b/c its bigger and it can take the twist
get the point???


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Check out Rancho...

The Rancho torsion bar is designed to enhance the performance your vehicle’s suspension system, adding extra support to the vehicle that has been customized with a lifted suspension that is suitable for tough off-road driving conditions. Custom made for each make and model for which it is produced, this tough suspension component will fit perfectly into the stock torsion bar mounting points for easy installation and secure support. Forged from heavy-duty, high quality American spring steel, and ranging in diameter from 24 to 34 mm in thickness depending upon your specific application, these rugged components are built with the typical attention to detail and quality workmanship for which Rancho has earned its reputation as one of the foremost makers of custom suspension parts and accessories. The Rancho torsion bar is protected by a corrosion resistant Rancho Red powder coat finish, and can be adjusted for differing lift heights. The tough construction of this custom torsion bar ensures its ability to withstand the rough punishment of trail driving more effectively than stock parts without the frequent adjustment standard components can require. The Rancho torsion bar is simple to install, arriving complete with detailed instructions, and is backed by the Rancho lifetime warranty, ensuring your satisfaction with its performance and quality. Auto hobbyists definitely deserve excellent technical assistance when purchasing good quality car parts from us. So of course we built a 24/7/365 assistance desk to answer all your questions. Everyone hates paying for shipping, so your parts come with FREE shipping for all orders $50 or more. If you find a better price, give us a call - we will beat any advertised price for auto parts.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1526178 said:


> have you ever used a long one piece 3/8 extention?
> what happenes when you cant break that bolt loose?? you get a bigger/longer handle ratchet.
> you see the extention twist,,,thats the same with your bars,,*one end pretty much stays put* and the other end is twisting,,,,not rotationg,,,twisting. and if you keep going you have 4 outcomes
> 1).the twisting action breaks the 3/8s ratchet
> ...


retype since my browser crashed...

pelase dont take this as "arguing" that is nto the point that im here for, tho most seem to think so. i learn quite a big during these discussions.

when i turn the torsion bar screw, i do know that the other end does rotate, the truck lifts visibly. i could measure it with a tape measure.

are you saying that it does not rotate "as much" as the adjusting end?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

It's the long ratchet example. And one end is Gunna give eventually


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1526311 said:


> It's the long ratchet example. And one end is Gunna give eventually


but the part that i dont get (not that i need to understand every aspect to know how to do it, thats the technician in me) is that even tho you rotate the bar, there is not any extra weight, force or leverage being placed on the other end. it lifts further into the air, but it still has the exact same doward weight and force as you had before.



asking honestly!


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't ask just go with it. Now I gotta ask,, did you goto auto school?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1526337 said:


> Don't ask just go with it. Now I gotta ask,, did you goto auto school?


na. tho iv done rebuilds and have for the most part always done my own work, i really really dislike it. mostly because i dont have a shop and alot of the tools that would make it less of a pain.

my first profession is a computer technician. that where my desire to know "how" something works, not simply how to do it.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Not trying to be mean but alotta this stuff, or explanation of this stuff takes a lot. So to explain it in a page of a forum ain't the easiest. A lot of the answers can take days and even hands on in the classroom. 
So to help you better understand where a lot of us are coming from,,get an auto text book and go through it..We all understand our answers, or points b/c we or a lot of us have auto backgrounds, its second nature. Your getting it but you want EVERYTHING explained. Well that ain't always Gunna get you the answers you need. So sometimes just take what we are saying and leave it at that,,,the whole torsion bar flex was explained pages ago in 3 paragraphs,,,but you want more explanation? Again ill say its ok for now to crank on your bars,,,but sooner or later there Gunna break, or something in the system is Gunna break....why....b/c it just ain't strong enough to handle the constant weight and the bouncing with that weight on it. The 3/8 extention vers the 1/2 extension that I said earlier


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

birddseedd;1526340 said:


> my first profession is a computer technician. that where my desire to know "how" something works, not simply how to do it.


SO than look at it this way. You CAN make an old Mac G3 run mountain lion but not very well, it will be slow and you will constantly be trying to fix something or having memory issues features not working, etc.. Better to bite the bullet and buy a new machine or stick with the systems and equipment designed to run on that platform.

Make sense?


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

basher;1526350 said:


> SO than look at it this way. You CAN make an old Mac G3 run mountain lion but not very well, it will be slow and you will constantly be trying to fix something or having memory issues features not working, etc.. Better to bite the bullet and buy a new machine or stick with the systems and equipment designed to run on that platform.
> 
> Make sense?


I understand what you are saying. dont overload the truck. my quesiton was just on a technicality on how the torsion bars work.

really i don't actually need to do anything to my truck for functionality. im within the weight limit. getting timbrens is just for comfort. keep the small sag from happening.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

On a side bar tho. You will pretty much always have a sag. It's up to you how stiff you want the suspension to control th. Sag


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1526361 said:


> On a side bar tho. You will pretty much always have a sag. It's up to you how stiff you want the suspension to control th. Sag


if i have a timbrin holding right at the a frame with no load how much sag will a timbren give?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't know. That might be on there website. I know it will give some but the exact number I don't know


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

i do knwo itl be a whole heck of alot less than waht i have now. but im starting to wonder if its worth buying... in teh 60's next week. im taking my plow off today. kinda regret buying a back drag blade. unless im plowing every other day in janurary this year is going to be as bad as last year


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

in fact im taking my plow off today


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1526165 said:


> i was thinking about the torsion bars in bed tonight, (4:23, cant sleep); and i think we are looking at it a bit wrong.
> 
> If i buy aftermarket keys for my bars, im not actualy going to be twisting my torsion bars anymore than how they are now. If i rotate the back end of the bars, say 10 more degrees, the front end jsut the same is going to turn that exact same 10 degrees.
> 
> ...


What happens when you drive over a bump?
You see, you are only seeing HALF of the problem. The whole reason you have a suspension is so that when you're bounding down the road over bumps, the vehicle body will stay at the same level while the wheels bounce up and down. You are looking at the position of the suspension when the vehicle is sitting still in ONE PLACE. When you hit a nice bump on the road, it will compress the suspension FULLY, especially when you're loading the front end extra with a plow.

It WILL FULLY compress your suspension, and you can only bend/twist a piece of spring steel SO MUCH and have it bounce back. "so much" is less than you WILL be bending it.



> all that the keys do is rotate them, its the amount of weight that causes them to twist.


Not only weight... also INERTIA.



> when i initially turned up my torsion bars my suspension never actually got tighter, the sag i had with the default setting was the same sag that i got after turning them up. the sag just started from a higher position.


Right, but when you hit a bump in the road (literally), it WILL compress them more.



> of course, i would still run into some of the same problems. my truck would sag 2 inches. only, instead of sagging from 12 to 10 inches, for example, it would sag from 14 to 12 inches.


There is nothing wrong with "sag". Sag is fine. The problem you are going to be facing is OVERCOMPRESSION.



> so im still looking at timbrens if i want to eliminate that 2 inch sag. but to do this, i basically have to have the timbrens meet the swing arm with no load, meaning i wouldn't really have any sag at all with my suspension.
> 
> is this proper? seems the only way to eliminate the sag.


Again, you want the timbrens to limit your suspension travel, not to limit "sag".


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1527860 said:


> Again, you want the timbrens to limit your suspension travel, not to limit "sag".


arnt the 2 one in the same? the sag is part of the travel?

I talked with a mechanic buddy of mine and he agreed that the bars do tighten some when you twist them. but still he couldn't really explain why. just said it has to do with the geometry of it. so i guess its going to have to be one of those things that i understand what it does, just not why. might learn some day.

tho i do have a guess. it could be the angle of the a frame. if at no load the arm is in a general downward angel, then when you do rotate it up, you will also be rotating it out. if this being the case, there would be more lateral leverage on the bar, which would mean more force.

i haven't confirmed it. just an idea.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Again my example of the extension. Angles don't have alot to do with them.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1528649 said:


> Again my example of the extension. Angles don't have alot to do with them.


I think i need to slow down typing.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Second that


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1528649 said:


> Again my example of the extension. Angles don't have alot to do with them.


ya never know. if some little girl was about to die in an accident because of a broken spring, an angel could hold up the vehicle taking weight off of the spring until they get past the little girl.


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## CashinH&P (Jan 14, 2012)

birddseedd;1528666 said:


> ya never know. if some little girl was about to die in an accident because of a broken spring, an angel could hold up the vehicle taking weight off of the spring until they get past the little girl.


Where do you come up with this stuff? are you just typing for the sake of typing?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Whole nother ball game there capt Ron. Angles in suspension....torsion bars....not holding up a tk saving a life. C'mon man evil kneviel couldn't have made that leap


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

shrugs. its a technical possibilitity.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

shrugs,,,,,dont care not important to torsion bars,,,,get a mechanical text book yet??


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

dieselss;1528802 said:


> shrugs,,,,,dont care not important to torsion bars,,,,get a mechanical text book yet??


you mean to study to be a certified mechanic type book?


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

yea,,,so you can see what and where alotta us are coming from, but it wont make you a certified tech, maybe just a mechanic


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

not a job i want to do. im sick of fixin cars.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Understand. But it would help with the termanogoly were all using round here


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1528346 said:


> arnt the 2 one in the same? the sag is part of the travel?


The suspension 'travel' is the range between fully extended and fully compressed. The 'sag' is the amount that the suspension is compressed in a static state, where it is holding up (suspending) the vehicle. Remember that the suspension works in both directions -- up when you hit a bump, and down when you hit a dip.



> I talked with a mechanic buddy of mine and he agreed that the bars do tighten some when you twist them. but still he couldn't really explain why. just said it has to do with the geometry of it. so i guess its going to have to be one of those things that i understand what it does, just not why. might learn some day.
> 
> tho i do have a guess. it could be the angle of the a frame. if at no load the arm is in a general downward angel, then when you do rotate it up, you will also be rotating it out. if this being the case, there would be more lateral leverage on the bar, which would mean more force.
> 
> i haven't confirmed it. just an idea.


Yes, you are looking at the angle of the lower suspension arm against the frame. When you tighten the adjustment bolt at the back of the torsion bar, the lower suspension bar angles DOWN, while the tension on the bar remains the same.

Lets think of it this way;
If the bar can withstand 25 degrees of twist and the static sag with factory weight and ride height is at 10 degrees of twist, then there is only 15 degrees remaining. If the arm contacts the bump stop at 15 degrees of compression from factory sag, then you've used up the full 25 degrees of twist that are available. Now say you crank those arms by 10 degrees, your static sag is still at 10 degrees of twist, but the suspension arm is hanging down at a steeper angle (by 10 degrees). Your remaining suspension travel is an additional 25 degrees, which means that WHEN you fully compress the front suspension (not if... when), you will be twisting the bar 10 degrees PAST its limit.


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

jasonv;1528965 said:


> The suspension 'travel' is the range between fully extended and fully compressed. The 'sag' is the amount that the suspension is compressed in a static state, where it is holding up (suspending) the vehicle. Remember that the suspension works in both directions -- up when you hit a bump, and down when you hit a dip.
> 
> Yes, you are looking at the angle of the lower suspension arm against the frame. When you tighten the adjustment bolt at the back of the torsion bar, the lower suspension bar angles DOWN, while the tension on the bar remains the same.
> 
> ...


makes sense. good enough answer for me. the closer to 90 degrees (respect to frame) the more leverage. more leverage == more force == more twist.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

birddseedd;1528975 said:


> makes sense. good enough answer for me. the closer to 90 degrees (respect to frame) the more leverage. more leverage == more force == more twist.


Technically, yes, but when the range is small, the effect of leverage with respect to the angle is minimal. You can pretty much ignore that. The force is applied statically by the weight being supported, dynamically by the vehicle's inertia as you drive over bumps.


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