# One good thing about this winter



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Seasonal pricing will be going up payup


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## xgiovannix12 (Dec 8, 2012)

grandview;1976119 said:


> Seasonal pricing will be going up payup


lost to much money this year?  I think I made more pushing back piles lol


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

I'm hoping finally more people will want to go seasonal. I've noticed quite a few lots that in December were getting salted for 1/2" but weren't even touched the last 2 storms, and they're seasonal accounts. I guess some of these guys figured out "easy money" is hard work on years like this one. I'll be paying these accounts a visit this off season.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

xgiovannix12;1976149 said:


> lost to much money this year?  I think I made more pushing back piles lol


No money lost here. Just all this snow will make people want snowplowing service next year so,now all new customers will pay a higher rate and this season customers with see a bump in their price too,


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## lawnboy2121 (Jan 25, 2007)

New truck time


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

grandview;1976246 said:


> No money lost here. Just all this snow will make people want snowplowing service next year so,now all new customers will pay a higher rate and this season customers with see a bump in their price too,


Man, I love your way of thinking  Thumbs Up


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Shoot some of my seasonal customers have caps, win win


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

How do you lose money 
You need to change business all seasonals have to have limits 
Amount of plows 
Amount of salt 
If you keep crashing cars won't your insurance drop you 
If you never use your insurance doesn't it still go up 
See win win 
How can you own a business work your ass off and loose money 
I hate to say it but you would be better off as a sub then 
I do 95% all over their contracts limits a month ago there is no chance in hell of me working and loosing money 
Even better I do 13 driveways I charge $1000 for walk and drive sub it out to a guy for $350 a house for season his price he chose they went over and I keep the overages 
Sorry charging more next year doesn't mean you made money this year 
I have a lot of respect for you guys who really plow as my area we get crazy over 6 inches but some prices it may not be worth plowing after repairs and the shorten life of equipment and time away from family this is a business you need to make money I can lose money sitting home watching tv


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## xgiovannix12 (Dec 8, 2012)

ponyboy;1976292 said:


> How do you lose money
> You need to change business all seasonals have to have limits
> Amount of plows
> Amount of salt
> ...


easy the way bird does ... Makes it and puts it right back into the equipment. :laughing:


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

ponyboy;1976292 said:


> How do you lose money
> You need to change business all seasonals have to have limits
> Amount of plows
> Amount of salt
> ...


$350 vs. $1000....if he weren't subbing and just outbid you, wouldn't we be calling him a low baller?

$350 in ALBANY is a small driveway, so this guy doesn't seem like he knows how to bid.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Would I call him a low baller idk
I know that if u add up all the time putting in before a storm during a storm and then after his much money are you making 
We plow around 10 storms and most 2 plows a storm so 20 plows what are u making at $350
I just call myself a better salesman 
We do commerical work and sell quality not price 
But point is learn your trait and don't worry about other people's price make what you want and if you do take the responsibility of a job never should you lose money working and make sure you are making enough so that it's worth the time and risk involved


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

you talking about me?


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

In general just saying 
Not at anyone 
I don't know much about u or your biz


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

I am not saying I know anything...just enough to get in trouble.

And if I had your money I would not need mine.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Most of your expenses are fixed. 
truck payment
insurance 
phone
and all that other back office stuff.

Only real big unknown is gas.For us it was a bonus winter because gas was half of what is was in the beginning of the season.With the early and big snow totals they filled the lots up faster and now we done plowing the routes in half the time. I hate when they want the piles pushed back,that means more time spent plowing. I can take all my seasonal money add it up and subtract all my winter expenses before the first flake falls,again other then fuel. I know how much will be left.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Only if you are solo 
Time isn't plenty of prep work 
Plenty of post plow work 
Again this was a great year 
All true business men made money 
Ones who lost money need to find a new line of business


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

"All seasonals need to have a cap"

What the hell is the point of a seasonal contract if it has a cap on it? That's a lose lose for the customer. No matter what the weather does they're going to lose. Less snow than usual, they're still paying full price. More snow than usual, they pay full price plus extra charges.

I don't get it. Even with the winter we had last winter, being over double our average we didn't lose money on a single seasonal. Snow plowing is a fairly high margin industry compared to mowing and other maintenance. You'd have to go WAY WAY over on service amounts to lose money if you know your averages and all your costs.


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

John_DeereGreen;1976463 said:


> "All seasonals need to have a cap"
> 
> What the hell is the point of a seasonal contract if it has a cap on it? That's a lose lose for the customer. No matter what the weather does they're going to lose. Less snow than usual, they're still paying full price. More snow than usual, they pay full price plus extra charges.
> 
> I don't get it. Even with the winter we had last winter, being over double our average we didn't lose money on a single seasonal. Snow plowing is a fairly high margin industry compared to mowing and other maintenance. You'd have to go WAY WAY over on service amounts to lose money if you know your averages and all your costs.


Kind of what I was thinking! I do all my lots per push. I feel that is the fairest way to fly for both client and my business. I, like you, did notgetthe seasonal cap thing. One sided if you ask me!


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Yes in favor of the business man


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

just hope the "businessman" you are selling a capped seasonal to doesn't realize that he is getting screwed. seasonal with caps make no sense to me. do you give your customer money back at the end of the season if it snows only a little bit? 

If I was a customer and was offered a seasonal with a cap i'd immediately think the plow outfit doesn't know how to run their business. they want to have their cake and eat it too.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

25 in business I think I might have a clue how to run my business 
I know enough not to lose money working and hope to raise my price next year to cover this year


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

how are capped seasonals communicated upon signing the contract?  is the cap provision buried in the fine print, or is it mentioned forthright during the intial discussions? I can only imagine how a customer would react:

salesman - "your price for the season is $X, but if seasonal snowfall exceeds Y inches, then each storm thereafter is billed at a rate of $Z per inch."

customer - "i thought a seasonal price would be just that - one price for the entire season. but you are telling me your price is only good up til Y inches of snow, at which point you charge me above and beyond the seasonal amount? So clearly you are well protected in the event of a large seasonal snowfall, but what protects me in the event of a light seasonal snowfall?"

i've never sold a seasonal, let alone a capped seasonal, but i am sure that those selling capped seasonals have run across the above scenario (or some version of it) at some point. What would be/is your response to the above customer question? 

i just don't understand how a customer presented with all the facts would think a capped seasonal is a good choice.


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

ponyboy;1976552 said:


> 25 in business I think I might have a clue how to run my business
> I know enough not to lose money working and hope to raise my price next year to cover this year


What is it that you have to "cover" for this year?..


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I offers ten 10 storms below 8 inches over 8 inches $50 more per storm 
Over 10 storms most storms get 2 plows is $50 extra per time 
No small fine print have had same customer for 25 years


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## pdreibels (Dec 24, 2013)

ponyboy;1976603 said:


> No small fine print have had same customer for 245 years


Are you a vampire or something?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

pdreibels;1976608 said:


> Are you a vampire or something?


LOL That's one old lady...


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

Seasonal is seasonal. A year like this, you make extra on relocation of piles and things like that. I like to win just like everyone, but I don't want my customer to lose. I play the long game though...for every year we get whacked, we typically get an easy year and it corrects itself over time. I sell my customers on seasonal contracts for the idea of fixed pricing so they can budget all their other operating expenses, the same way I do before giving them my price.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I'm lost! Are all you straight seasonal guys lawn guys?Small one or two truck operators? Caps are very common and actually save customer money, I'll leave the answer for you to figure out,it's quite basic.Maybe I'll send out a prize gift certificate to the winner!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

leigh;1977196 said:


> I'm lost! Are all you straight seasonal guys lawn guys?Small one or two truck operators? Caps are very common and actually save customer money, I'll leave the answer for you to figure out,it's quite basic.Maybe I'll send out a prize gift certificate to the winner!


I am. But I only handle one lawn customer for plowing, My seasons don't mix with each other.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Caps aren't common here. I am a small operator but I don't know what that has to do with it...
The first thing that will happen if I try and institute a cap is the customer will call me on a low snow year and ask for money back. That is how their minds see it.


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

Call me...well, not so bright...I can't figure how a cap can save a customer $$$$. A seasonal contract, yes. A seasonal with cap? Guess I won't get the prize!


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

ratherbfishin;1977288 said:


> Call me...well, not so bright...I can't figure how a cap can save a customer $$$$. A seasonal contract, yes. A seasonal with cap? Guess I won't get the prize!


My guess is that the seasonal price is cheaper....it still seems silly to me. It defeats the purpose of being able to budget for the winter.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

I'd consider giving away a cap on a seasonal with my company logo on it to a bigger account


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

Ya, I get that part but the seasonal cap thing still seems contradictory!


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

What wrong with limits 
Why should you lose money if you have a bad winter


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## RonWin (Nov 17, 2011)

I would like to juat transition all my residentials into per plow instead of aeasonal. Honeatly, if i dont plow at all and have nothing to bill thats fine with me. I work lawns full time and a full time state job so in the winter i enjoy down time. What i dont enjoy is set rates and having to plow them repeatedly after going over that set rate. Luckily i am 50 50 with per time and seasonal, but all per time is really the only way to go. If it snows a lot your fkd, if it doesnt at all the client feels cheated; not the case with per plows.

Is there security in seasonals? Yes, but if you show up and promise to do what your suppose to do and build up a great reputation then no one is really going to leave you for someone else.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Again if you never use your car insurance do you feel cheated


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

ponyboy;1977308 said:


> What wrong with limits
> Why should you lose money if you have a bad winter


nothing wrong at all with limits. but it seems it's a one way street. why should the customer overpay (lose money) if it's a light winter?

i get it - a cap is in the best interest of the plow operator. but how does a cap benefit the customer? i'm not looking for trivia or prizes here - just the answer.

and can anyone answer my earlier question? how do you respond to a customer who calls out the obvious one-sided-ness of a seasonal with a cap? how do you sell the customer on it?


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## Remydog (Sep 6, 2014)

ponyboy;1977310 said:


> Again if you never use your car insurance do you feel cheated


Yes if the law didn't make me have insurance I wouldn't


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I sell it as insurance 
That they can get to work everyday 
Come home everyday 
That we have a proven history of quality timely service 
Sorry fact is in in business to make money 
Granted I don't do many houses like I said 
But I'm triple the price of most in my area and I still turn peple away 
We haven't had a light winter in over 5 years we are due soon


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Then I guess you carry Bare minimum insurance where as I carry max 
I like being over protected


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## Remydog (Sep 6, 2014)

ponyboy;1977346 said:


> Then I guess you carry Bare minimum insurance where as I carry max
> I like being over protected


Nope I carry more then enough coverage. I'm not stupid I just hate paying it, therefore I have deductibles to lessen the blow


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

i still can't get an answer to my very simple question. i've stated it as clearly as possible and even tee'd it up with a hypothetical conversation. one last time and then i give up walking away with the exact same thought i've always had - that seasonal contracts with caps are complete BS and any customer knowingly signing up for them is a sucker.

ok, so last time - how does a seasonal with a cap benefit/make sense FOR THE CUSTOMER?


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

They realize if I loose money then they lose me 
They get a discount on services when they go over their limits
Guess you have to learn to be a better salesman


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

your true colors are really showing now. a question is posed (by many people on this thread) and instead of answering it, you dance around it and then finally cave with a personal attack because you can't articulate a response. i'm familiar with this approach - my 4 year old does the same thing.... 

as for my sales ability (since you brought it into question for some reason) - i'm all set. while plowing i average an hourly rate higher then the most high priced lawyer you can find. 

you still haven't sold me (or anyone else on this thread) on why a seasonal with a cap makes sense for the customer. so it looks like you are the one who needs to brush up on sales. the only benefit to the customer i can see after your last response is that they stand a chance to lose you if they question your structure. loosing you would without doubt be in their best interest.


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

ponyboy;1977310 said:


> Again if you never use your car insurance do you feel cheated


But the ins.co doesn't set a cap on your car ins. Totaled is totaled....poor comparison !


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

No you either drop you or raise your insurance if you keep totaling cars


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Also I pay over $3000 a month just for car insurance have not had a claim in over seven years I don't get money back and I still feel it's fair


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

yes an ins does set a cap, you just dont know about it. make too many claims and theyll drop you real quick. had the same insurance on our house for like 10 years and made one claim because a tree fell on our house and they said make one more claim and theyll drop us. heard it from so many others too


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

Linckeil...I believe we're beating a dead horse here. He makes no sense and as stated, is obviously having extreme difficulty articulating his thoughts!
I guess we have to resign ourselves to the fact that we are poor salesmen/ businessmen and try a different route; maybe auto insurance with a per loss cap!


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

ponyboy;1977385 said:


> Also I pay over $3000 a month just for car insurance have not had a claim in over seven years I don't get money back and I still feel it's fair


Over $3000.00/month... Over $36,000/ yr...And how many vehicles is that coverage for?


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

i hear ya ratherbfishin. i was hoping to learn something here - that's why i asked. i have no intentions of ever going seasonal (and certainly never a seasonal with a cap). it was really more of a curiosity then anything else, but i guess it'll just remain a complete f'in mystery.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

It's just one truck but my agent is a good salesman 
I done


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

ratherbfishin;1977392 said:


> Over $3000.00/month... Over $36,000/ yr...And how many vehicles is that coverage for?


either it's all the bentlys that he owns making money on seasonals with caps, or it goes to show he's as big of a sucker as his customers are! one of the two....


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

OMG....I am pissing my pants at this point..."i" out too!


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

ponyboy;1977385 said:


> Also I pay over $3000 a month just for car insurance have not had a claim in over seven years I don't get money back and I still feel it's fair





ponyboy;1977396 said:


> It's just one truck but my agent is a good salesman
> I done


snowplowing & saving money on car insurance.......


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

3K??
I Only pay 1K for 8 Vehicles, 2mil Liability, Aerial tree service, Snow, Etc. Etc.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I skipped through the last few posts but you have got to be kidding me! lolThink harder about why a seasonal with a cap is a win win for the client and the contractor,it's very simple and makes perfect sense! You guys are letting your emotions cloud your logic and math skills ,this is basic logical reasoning.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

flawless, thats a crazy good insurance if your doing tree too. whos your provider? my dad got outta the tree biz when insurance for it just got too much. ours is a little higher than yours but no tree but our prices here are higher for some reason


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I've plowed all inclusive, salting, plowing and about 75% of my work even includes loader work for 24 years. I've never lost money. It all seems to work out every year. Yes some years can be lean but I know every year I have a set amount of income coming in and the low snow years seem to make up for the big ones. If your a solo operator spreading very little salt it would be pretty much impossible to loose money as your only real expense is fuel and a little more wear and tear. When you get bigger that's when things gets tricky. On edit only the contractor wins with a cap.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

ponyboy;1977396 said:


> It's just one truck but my agent is a good salesman
> I done


Holy **** you need to shop around


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

JD Dave;1977421 said:


> I've plowed all inclusive, salting, plowing and about 75% of my work even includes loader work for 24 years. I've never lost money. It all seems to work out every year. Yes some years can be lean but I know every year I have a set amount of income coming in and the low snow years seem to make up for the big ones. If your a solo operator spreading very little salt it would be pretty much impossible to loose money as your only real expense is fuel and a little more wear and tear. When you get bigger that's when things gets tricky. On edit only the contractor wins with a cap.


don't you dare try and bring "basic logical reasoning" into this discussion


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

snocrete;1977429 said:


> don't you dare try and bring "basic logical reasoning" into this discussion


My bad,I'll dummy it up just to fit in


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

snowplower1;1977419 said:


> flawless, thats a crazy good insurance if your doing tree too. whos your provider? my dad got outta the tree biz when insurance for it just got too much. ours is a little higher than yours but no tree but our prices here are higher for some reason


State Farm.. Great to deal with as well.. They send us nice Christmas presents every year as well..
Cost of living is way low here in C-Bus, i know that plays a huge part in insurance rates..

I would never get out of tree service. 2nd best profit margin behind snow removal.
Two more seasons and i have my big dog chipper paid off. Bucket was paid off last season.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

ponyboy;1977396 said:


> It's just one truck but my agent is a good salesman
> I done


3k a month So how many DWI do you have I know guy tried to get Ins And he couldnt afford it. With 2 DWI on his record. They wanted 2k per month So he is riding a bike.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

Flawless440;1977441 said:


> State Farm.. Great to deal with as well.. They send us nice Christmas presents every year as well..
> Cost of living is way low here in C-Bus, i know that plays a huge part in insurance rates..
> 
> I would never get out of tree service. 2nd best profit margin behind snow removal.
> Two more seasons and i have my big dog chipper paid off. Bucket was paid off last season.


yeah it must just be because of the difference in regions. when i own the business i want to try to see if i can profit enough with the tree biz and get back into it. i would love doing it and like you said its a great profit margin. I might have to look into state farms insurance around here. thanks!


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

ponyboy;1977385 said:


> Also I pay over $3000 a month just for car insurance have not had a claim in over seven years I don't get money back and I still feel it's fair


I'm not buying half of what you've posted in this thread and it'd be nice if you would actually answer the question of how a cap benefits the customer


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Insurance just left State Farm to switch to a different company that is cheaper farm family 
I have 15 trucks 2 cars and an umbrella policy no Bentley but wife car is an AMG
All driver clean no dwi 
No accidents payouts in 7 years 
Also have full coverage on 7 enclosed trailer 
All have 1 mil coverage and other crap it's just my area insurance is expensive 
How does it benefit the customer like I said I'm in business to make money not save the customer money 
I'm more of a commerucal guy that's why I only do 13 houses but they make as much money as 40 houses 
Am I saying I'm correct no but it works for me all I can say is that business started in 1984 by my dad and I took over 1992 when I bought him out 
Back then I would do 65 houses my self for $250 for the season and it was crazy so I slowly raised my prices to where I made good money in less time and less wear on truck and after loosing money one year tranny went lots of snow I set limits on contracts 
I explained I can't lose money plowing so limits apply 
Again this is a business 
If any one wants to see my numbers they can come in down /up/over and see my books 
Am I the smartest no 
The best no 
I do what has been working for me 
And I haven't lost money in the winter in a long time


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

ponyboy;1977491 said:


> Insurance just left State Farm to switch to a different company that is cheaper farm family
> I have 15 trucks 2 cars and an umbrella policy no Bentley but wife car is an AMG


Before you said 3k on one truck per month

Now you say 15 trucks and 2 cars

Which is it


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Antlerart06;1977494 said:


> Before you said 3k on one truck per month
> 
> Now you say 15 trucks and 2 cars
> 
> Which is it


1truck was a joke


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## turn54 (Jan 7, 2010)

Seasonal with a cap, I could understand with a one year deal you might be able to sell it. How it would benefit the customer?? No such thing. Complete win win for the contractor. I often give the speech of seasonal with a cap just as an explanation to get into a multi-year deal. Or I just have my cavemen do it per push.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Maybe I missed it. But your cap is it number of pushes or inches? What's your contract cap like?


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

Wow...great story teller!


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## Fannin76 (Jan 1, 2014)

Flawless440;1977441 said:


> State Farm.. Great to deal with as well.. They send us nice Christmas presents every year as well..
> Cost of living is way low here in C-Bus, i know that plays a huge part in insurance rates..
> 
> I would never get out of tree service. 2nd best profit margin behind snow removal.
> Two more seasons and i have my big dog chipper paid off. Bucket was paid off last season.


State Farm here too. 200/month 3 vehicles 2 mil general liability.


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## oarwhat (Nov 29, 2005)

This is how a seasonal with a cap works in my opinion. 

Let's say your area plows 20 times a year on average and the lot is worth $10,000. 

You agree to plow the lot 15 times for $7,500 and $500 per push after that. (or by the hour, inch or whatever)

So in a light year you're guaranteed $7,500 and the customer saves $2500. If it's per push who knows what you get. 

In a normal or heavy year you get paid what you're supposed to get and the customer pays the normal price. 

This is a win win for both sides. Okay let the bashing begin.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

oarwhat;1977556 said:


> This is how a seasonal with a cap works in my opinion.
> 
> Let's say your area plows 20 times a year on average and the lot is worth $10,000.
> 
> ...


What bashing,finally someone with a brain!You're close to my thinking.I really didn't want to answer this.Look at it this way, the basic one price seasonal is priced to take in account a bad year,the proof of this is everyone saying they still make money when it snows more than average.So the price of a seasonal with cap is lower than standard seasonal,why? because he knows if snowfall is over cap he will still get paid for work,client isn't getting "ripped off",he's paying for services rendered.In a low snowfall year the basic seasonal client is getting"ripped off" by contractor who's making more money because he's plowing less.The cap seasonal has lower base price because the cap is his ins. so client pays less that year. And think hard about this,2 accounts bid both ways will actually come out very close in price over a couple year time frame! And one last point,If one price seasonals are fair for all,why would a year with more snow equate with higher seasonal prices? That actually works out against the seasonal argument,unless you're looking to ripoff you're clients! Oarwhat,send me a pm and I'll send out a special prize to you!


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## oarwhat (Nov 29, 2005)

Here's another way a seasonal with a cap works. 

Again a normal year is 20 pushes and lot is worth $10,000. 

Seasonal is priced at 20 pushes for $10,000 with a cap at like 30 to 40 pushes.

This one works exactly like a normal seasonal except you get paid for an extreme year. 

I prefer my first example. Easier to sell some savings to a customer. And as Leigh says over the years you usually make the same amount


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

peteo1;1977471 said:


> I'm not buying half of what you've posted in this thread and it'd be nice if you would actually answer the question of how a cap benefits the customer


Snow removal has always been sold as the deeper the snow the more work involved so the price has to be higher.

Seasonal price customer pays $2,000 a year, three year contract.

1st year non seasonal price would of been $1,000, customer overpaid $1,000.

2nd year NSP $2,000, customer broke even.

3rd year NSP $3,000, customer underpaid $1,000, after three years customer and contractor paid/made $6,000. Fair to all.

Now with a cap the 3rd year the NSP was $3,000, customer would of paid $3,000. Now the cap caused the customer to pay $7,000 for that three year contact. Not fair to the customer.

For the whole purpose for selling a seasonal price is the customer accepts that some years he would pay more for snow removal then the actual price and he would pay less then the actual price other years because for the convenience of one consistent price so he can set a budget to pay for snow.

A fair system for some years the customer would come out ahead, then other years the contractor would come out ahead. In the end things average out so pricing is fair.

Now to place a cap and charge more the contractor is making the math where there will be more years the customer pays more and less years where the customer would pay less. So caps makes the customers average snow removal budget cost more.

The only way to make caps fair to both the customer and the contractor is for the contractor to lower his seasonal price so that customer gets increased savings. This increased savings by the customer is needed to offset the years when the cap charge is imposed.

So the long term year cost average is the same as whether there was seasonal pricing without a cap and seasonal pricing with a cap.

Now what I want to see is how many people that are now using caps have lowered the seasonal pricing along with charging more once the cap is exceeded to keep the average fair to both themselves and the customer?


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

oarwhat;1977556 said:


> This is how a seasonal with a cap works in my opinion.
> 
> Let's say your area plows 20 times a year on average and the lot is worth $10,000.
> 
> ...


finally - something that makes sense. however, i would not consider this to be a "seasonal" - this is a contract where both parties agree to pay for 15 pushes (whether or not that number is actually reached, and then a set amount per push thereafter. now if that is what people consider a "seasonal with a cap" to be, then i see the benefit to both sides if annual average is 20 pushes. but i really think using the term "seasonal" here is a misnomer. regardless, as a customer i would still be looking for a true seasonal, or a per push arrangement.

anyway, thank you for clarifying. it took four full pages for someone to actually answer the question. and i bet there are others out there with yet another definition of "seasonal with a cap".


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Only problem with that deal is,there still an unknown as to what the extras might cost them. Say they agree to that. So now they know how much to budget for the first part.But now they need to plug in another figure in their budget to cover the rest. So they ask you,about how much more should we budget for the rest of the season? Unfortunately,their are shady plow guys out that will plow an inch instead of the contracted amount so they can burn throught the agreed upon plows,Then they start banging you for all these extra plows.


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## usmcdroach (Dec 29, 2014)

I have customers with caps. Very simple. 
Customer A- driveway and side walks seasonal price $750. That's $50 per plow and contract is based on 15 plows. If snowfall is between 10-20 plows nothing changes. Under 10 plows I refund money owed at $50 plow. For those undereducated if i plow 8 times I send him back $100. 21 or more plows is billed at $50 per push. 
Couple kickers in the contract. 
1. Customer can not dictate when I plow. Our customers with 15 plow contracts are at 3" trigger. Different triggers have different contract amounts. 
2. Customers can change the contract to put push or seasonal or the other way only until 2nd plow has been done. 
3. Customer can dictate when I plow if max contract is met and still snowy season.


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## usmcdroach (Dec 29, 2014)

I give people the option of having straight contract or one with a cap. And even some of the straight contract customers i have plows for years when we get 7,8,9 plow events and they are way under their contract. I do something for them as well. Maybe first mowing free or first fertilizer free. People love money back its not a lot out of my pocket an if it snowed that little amount I made a bunch so it's a win win. I got the idea from State farm insurance safe driver bonus where they send you a check if you don't make a claim. It's not the whole amount but enough to make anyone smile. Hell when any money shows up in my mailbox I smile. And those customers all call back every year and don't even look elsewhere. Everyone is happy happy happy!


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## oarwhat (Nov 29, 2005)

grandview;1977710 said:


> Only problem with that deal is,there still an unknown as to what the extras might cost them. Say they agree to that. So now they know how much to budget for the first part.But now they need to plug in another figure in their budget to cover the rest. So they ask you,about how much more should we budget for the rest of the season? Unfortunately,their are shady plow guys out that will plow an inch instead of the contracted amount so they can burn throught the agreed upon plows,Then they start banging you for all these extra plows.


That's true but I tell my guys what a normal winter is. Say 20 plows so they budget for that.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Guess I'll stick to my flat rate seasonal price, Billed 5 times and if you want salt or loader that's the only extra cost. This year pushing 200 inches for the season and only had 1 phone call about service. And that was during the 7 feet of snow get in 3 days. They wanted to know if they would be open by Monday,told they can come in at anytime,all plowed ,maybe a couple of inches in the lot between plows,but open for business.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

grandview;1977749 said:


> Guess I'll stick to my flat rate seasonal price, Billed 5 times and if you want salt or loader that's the only extra cost. This year pushing 200 inches for the season and only had 1 phone call about service. And that was during the 7 feet of snow get in 3 days. They wanted to know if they would be open by Monday,told they can come in at anytime,all plowed ,maybe a couple of inches in the lot between plows,but open for business.


Stick to what works for you,it's simple and you must be good at bidding accurately from your success.. I think most missed the point that a capped seasonal should be lower than a straight seasonal.That's the key,and it probably will work out the same.The only thing required with straight seasonal is that you bank some of your income or you'll be up the proverbial creek in a bad year.I love this site,lots of fun!


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Oh and one advantage to either a capped or straight seasonal is billing.I'm sitting here watching nascar,drinking sangria and trying to bill out feb invoices-24 per push jobs


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

grandview;1977710 said:


> Only problem with that deal is,there still an unknown as to what the extras might cost them. Say they agree to that. So now they know how much to budget for the first part.But now they need to plug in another figure in their budget to cover the rest. So they ask you,about how much more should we budget for the rest of the season? Unfortunately,their are shady plow guys out that will plow an inch instead of the contracted amount so they can burn throught the agreed upon plows,Then they start banging you for all these extra plows.





grandview;1977749 said:


> Guess I'll stick to my flat rate seasonal price, Billed 5 times and if you want salt or loader that's the only extra cost..


, You say flat rate seasonal but Salt and loader is extra $$
How can you call your contracts seasonal or even flat rate seasonal since you have salt and loader as a extra cost

If the customer wants salt and needs a loader shouldn't that be figure in the seasonal price Your customer wont know either how to budget for $$

This was my 2nd year doing a seasonal snow contracts and mine was set up. One price for season means walks,plow,salting,loader to stack on site.
They called it a Flat rate Seasonal with 5 payments.
I done flat rate seasonal contracts during summer time and there is no I mean no hidden cost.

Still learning about all the different Seasonal snow contracts


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Antlerart06;1977783 said:


> , You say flat rate seasonal but Salt and loader is extra $$
> How can you call your contracts seasonal or even flat rate seasonal since you have salt and loader as a extra cost
> 
> If the customer wants salt and needs a loader shouldn't that be figure in the seasonal price Your customer wont know either how to budget for $$
> ...


Jumping to the other side of discussion,the more you include the harder it is to be fair to either side.We're talking snow,we've had 50"s.Normal is around 25" If you figure in all variables,it ends up totally in the favor of contractor,who has to cover his $&&%.Billing for something that may never happen.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Antlerart06;1977783 said:


> , You say flat rate seasonal but Salt and loader is extra $$
> How can you call your contracts seasonal or even flat rate seasonal since you have salt and loader as a extra cost
> 
> If the customer wants salt and needs a loader shouldn't that be figure in the seasonal price Your customer wont know either how to budget for $$
> ...


Cheap customers had them so long I know they don't want that service so its not put into the price.Even with all this snow only had 2 call outs for a loader and no salt,expect 1 place ,they wanted salt in the price so I bid it that way. I offer snowplowing,not all inclusive snowplowing,


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

grandview;1977787 said:


> Cheap customers had them so long I know they don't want that service so its not put into the price.Even with all this snow only had 2 call outs for a loader and no salt,expect 1 place ,they wanted salt in the price so I bid it that way. I offer snowplowing,not all inclusive snowplowing,


So you don't salt much then you are saying.

So you doing mostly driveways ?

So 1 place you have wants salt is that a lot or a driveway?


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Antlerart06;1977863 said:


> So you don't salt much then you are saying.
> 
> So you doing mostly driveways ?
> 
> So 1 place you have wants salt is that a lot or a driveway?


I only do 5 driveways,no salt. The others are all commercial,no salt except the one senior living apartments.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

leigh;1977786 said:


> Jumping to the other side of discussion,the more you include the harder it is to be fair to either side.We're talking snow,we've had 50"s.Normal is around 25" If you figure in all variables,it ends up totally in the favor of contractor,who has to cover his $&&%.Billing for something that may never happen.


Snow contract wasn't my own I was falling orders

My self I like per visit for snow, I only get paid for what I do.
But last 2 years had this seasonal contract I can say its nice but giving one to a customer I know , I don't think I can and face them if didn't snow.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Antlerart06;1977886 said:


> Snow contract wasn't my own I was falling orders
> 
> My self I like per visit for snow, I only get paid for what I do.
> But last 2 years had this seasonal contract I can say its nice but giving one to a customer I know , I don't think I can and face them if didn't snow.


Your satisfying their need and they are willing to pay for that.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

grandview;1977875 said:


> I only do 5 driveways,no salt. The others are all commercial,no salt except the one senior living apartments.


O wow Commercial lot not wanting salt 
Your area is sure different then my area.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

grandview;1977787 said:


> Cheap customers had them so long I know they don't want that service so its not put into the price.Even with all this snow only had 2 call outs for a loader and no salt,expect 1 place ,they wanted salt in the price so I bid it that way. I offer snowplowing,not all inclusive snowplowing,


That's how it's done by most guys here as well. We bid seasonals for X number of pushes and if we're under that amount we win, if not then the customer wins. It's all about knowing your areas numbers and how close you are willing to cut it. We don't include salt or loader work either


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

grandview;1977892 said:


> Your satisfying their need and they are willing to pay for that.


Is this in reference to snow removal or that other business you run?xysport


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

This **** makes my head hurt.

Capped seasonals are for those who don't know how to bid and figure averages. So what if you have a heavier year this year and a lighter year next year? At the end of the day, the customer is seeing the same dollar amount going out each season and that's all they're worried about. At least in our market.

Our seasonals are all inclusive with one exception: blizzards. We define a blizzard as when there is a Blizzard warning issued by NOAA for the zip code the service is performed in. We've only been in the industry for 10 years so we haven't had to deal with it yet, but I'm sure it's coming eventually.

The last 3 seasons we've covered 50-60 acres per event being all inclusive on seasonal pricing. About half our work before that was seasonal. They pay 5 equal payments for clearing, salt, and removal. Walkways are included as well. Not once have we lost money, or even come close. The worst year so far, our snow and ice division still did over 25% net margins. This was last winter, when we had almost 4 times our average. We average about 45% overall on snow and ice.

We've approached a couple clients with the idea of a capped seasonal to help save them money, as has been stated in this thread. This was done after a VERY light winter, 2011-2012 where the blades hit pavement one time. Neither were interested and preferred to stay flat rate for budgetary purposes. They understand just like I do that it all evens out in the end.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

turn54;1977502 said:


> Seasonal with a cap, I could understand with a one year deal you might be able to sell it. How it would benefit the customer?? No such thing. Complete win win for the contractor. I often give the speech of seasonal with a cap just as an explanation to get into a multi-year deal. Or I just have my cavemen do it per push.


lol

.......


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