# Salary for wages?



## drivewaydoctor

I'm going to be needing a guy next year to run a truck on commercial lots. I'm considering staying away from hourly and going with salary. I was thinking $1500 per month salary to operate my truck and he has to be available for every storm with a pay penalty for any storms missed.

What do you think of the salary option and what do you think of $1500 per month? Fair? Too low?


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## augerandblade

You would do well to know his work history, I tried that and when the going got to tough he bailed out on me He was just a fair weather friend


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## Kunker

Salary to me is for a fixed hour job where I work set days and set hours. For such a flexible and unpredictable job as plowing, I personally would much rather have an hourly wage, especially for a seasonal job with a pay penalty for missing work. That's my take on it.


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## QuadPlower

Salary is tough to do in our line of work. I have some friends that are those whats ya call its. Engineers. They get salary and then have to work 60 -70 hr a week for no additional money.

I'm thinking about salary for one of my guys for next year. I'm going to take his hourly rate for mowing and an hourly rate for snow plowing. Total it and divide by 12. That will give me the monthly salary.

To answer your question. Can your guy survive on $1,500 a month? Is it enough to keep him around all year? That is up to him.

The problem we face is that during the summer we are working them all the time and they only get $1500. During the winter we are only working them when it snows and they get $1500. It would be tough for me to pay someone in say November & April when they work very little.

$10 per hour x 40 hr/wk = $400 x 52 weeks a year = $20,800 per year.

2080 hours per year X hourly rate = Salary per year.

Acutal hours will vary. Like during November (after mowing, before snow) or April (after snow,before mowing) Then during the winter they will be less.

You can figure it out and that will make the actual $/hr rate higher.


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## cretebaby

You still have to pay overtime to a salaried employee unless they are a manager


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## JDiepstra

I know of a local company who pays his guys salary and it seems to work out fine. As stated above, check with labor laws on working overtime. If you do the pay cut with missed hours, I would strongly consider an end of year bonus for perfect attendance. Have you figured out how many hours, on average, you think he will be working per month?


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## clark lawn

Kunker;724580 said:


> Salary to me is for a fixed hour job where I work set days and set hours. For such a flexible and unpredictable job as plowing, I personally would much rather have an hourly wage, especially for a seasonal job with a pay penalty for missing work. That's my take on it.


the bad part of that is when there is no snow for a week or 2 they dont make any money now they are out looking for a new job, then the next snow nes not there.


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## JD Dave

All our guys get standby for 20 weeks, (250-$300/week) and then they get an hourly wage when they work. Most of my guys all have other fulltime jobs but have made arrangements that when it snows they are working for me. You miss the call you lose 2 weeks standby, miss the second call your looking for another snow plow job. I want operators not drivers and I think the extra expense is worth not having all the manpower headaches.


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## augerandblade

a former employee of mine moved on to highway work. His employer pays him 15 hours of reg pay per week, so if he is called in and work below the fifteen hour threshold he keeps his 15 hour pay. If he works over the 15 hours his pay reflects actual hours. That is something Im thinking of doing, however the snow has been steadily coming down at regular intervals, so far everybodys happy. Some of my guys are handy with a wrench, so sometimes shop work, get em in touch and givesw a regular check. Best is to get guys with seasonal work and your provided pay check is a nice supplement to their pogie pay.


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## Longae29

I'm a salaried employee. I make my salary every week, I make commission for snow plowing, landscape maintenance, and landscape installs that I sell. In the winter time during snowplowing I also make an hourly wage in addition to my salary for every hour worked over 10 in a week. In the summer I normally work about 50-60 hours a week, and in the winter the more i work to earn sales the more i'll make in commissions, so its in my favor to work a fair amount of hours. I've been with the same company for 9 years, first 6 as an hourly landscaper/snowplower, and the last 3 in my current position, the owner of the company i work for and myself are both satisfied with the way its worked out, seems fair to both of us, (maybe slightly more in my favor, but we'll keep that quiet)


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## Superior L & L

JD Dave;724816 said:


> All our guys get standby for 20 weeks, (250-$300/week) and then they get an hourly wage when they work. Most of my guys all have other fulltime jobs but have made arrangements that when it snows they are working for me. You miss the call you lose 2 weeks standby, miss the second call your looking for another snow plow job. I want operators not drivers and I think the extra expense is worth not having all the manpower headaches.


"there stand by" i know they get that every week if they work or not but say the guy makes $20 per hour and his stand by is $300 does he have to work 15 hour that week before he starts to drawn a pay check?


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## JD Dave

Superior L & L;725454 said:


> "there stand by" i know they get that every week if they work or not but say the guy makes $20 per hour and his stand by is $300 does he have to work 15 hour that week before he starts to drawn a pay check?


No hours are on top of the standby.


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## drivewaydoctor

Thanks for the feedback guys. This standby pay with hourly on top sounds risky doesnt it? I mean what if the guy turns 40 hours in the week at $20 per hour then your paying out $1100 for the week alone.

I kind of like the idea someone mentioned about having an hourly guarantee base and then those hours for the week come are worked if it storms. At least I think thats how I read it.


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## JohnnyRoyale

My main guys (year round) are on salary (40 hours a week) rain or shine through the winter-from mid December to mid April. We've tried everything in the past and found this is the fairest for everyone.


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## JD Dave

drivewaydoctor;725500 said:


> Thanks for the feedback guys. This standby pay with hourly on top sounds risky doesnt it? I mean what if the guy turns 40 hours in the week at $20 per hour then your paying out $1100 for the week alone.
> 
> I kind of like the idea someone mentioned about having an hourly guarantee base and then those hours for the week come are worked if it storms. At least I think thats how I read it.


It works for me. I've been doing it for 15 + years this way and I have the jobs to support it. Some of our guys have been with us for over 10 years.


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## augerandblade

JD Dave;725518 said:


> It works for me. I've been doing it for 15 + years this way and I have the jobs to support it. Some of our guys have been with us for over 10 years.


Thats what I thought ....once you get the lots and the people in place with a good pay package resulting in A 1 service it just keeps on rolling.


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## RODHALL

i don't see $1500 a month keeping employees long.
You need to find someone who will work both your driveway sealing and plowing. and then set down and come up with $$$$ see if company truck would sweetin the deal? see if health insurance? 


i know the guy i had working for me for while he was happy to have a company truck to drive, and took less $$$, he was always making sure it was clean and taken care of.

Good employees are hard to find, when you find one make sure you do your best to hold onto them.


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## Superior L & L

JD Dave;725468 said:


> No hours are on top of the standby.


Thats a tough sell for me at first but after thing about it it does guarantee they will show up. Also if you have enough monthly accounts there pay is guaranteed by the accounts they work on and the account gets great service
because the people that work there accounts are ready at a moments notice


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## Italiano67

It all boils down to making good money on accounts and not doing things on the cheap. If you are making good money you can pay well and also have the right equipment. It always amazes me how the low end pricing guys put themselves in a corner and have to cut corners on wages and run old or suspect equipment. I am not directing this at anyone here it is just an observation in general.


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## jgoetter1

Salary works best if you're able to keep your employee busy year round. If not, it doesn't make much sense.


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## BMWSTUD25

I know the situation. Hoping this spring to go from using all part time workers as needed to bringing one of them (my cousin) who I work with extremely well in full time. I know your looking for winter alone but still similiar to me looking to add a full time salaried person year round. My plan is to use a salary of around 600 week take home (not sure of the actual amount but it gives you an idea.) In the summer he may well work over 40 hours but in the winter he will be lucky to average 10 a week over the season including doing up keep on the equipment and such but then I know what I will pay for the year and it becomes another "fixed" cost just like insurance that you factor in. I would then just try to cover it with additional seasonal contracts and then I dont have to worry about loosing money or loosing a great worker! Not sure if this makes sense but I like it and its something to think about. Hopefully some of you guys will let me know what you think of my idea as well.


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## BMWSTUD25

jgoetter1;735060 said:


> Salary works best if you're able to keep your employee busy year round. If not, it doesn't make much sense.


to me it makes perfect sense regardless of workload if you have the right type of accounts. I think you will find better employees if you can guarantee them an actual income vs. the feast or famine that many of these type of jobs entail. If you do per push types of accounts I can see where you might get in trouble but if you do seasonal its probably the best thing going in my mind to use some type of salaried employees.


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## QuadPlower

BMWSTUD25: What you are talking about is what salary is. You have to figure out if your winter income can support a salary employee. How many $600 seasonal contracts do you have? You would have to have roughly 25 just to cover his salary. Then of course you need to get paid so you would need more.


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## BMWSTUD25

QuadPlower;737307 said:


> BMWSTUD25: What you are talking about is what salary is. You have to figure out if your winter income can support a salary employee. How many $600 seasonal contracts do you have? You would have to have roughly 25 just to cover his salary. Then of course you need to get paid so you would need more.


yeah I understand what the meaning behind salary is. $600 x 25 is only 15,000 and the way I see it Im already making money and can handle more by myself but with him dedicated to helping me all winter would allow me to really concentrate on using all the equipment I own. 15,000 isnt too much more to come up with, I'd really only have to add a few more decent properties. Most of my winter contracts that pay monthly pay from Nov-april(6 months) but in reality I also spend most of those two months(nov apr) doing cleanups and in spring getting some new work started so you could almost eliminate 8 weeks off that as his pay would be covered by that work. That would only leave about 17 weeks @ 600 or 10,200 and thats easier to cover yet. We also can get pretty busy with cleanups IF we have an ice storm that brings down any trees and limbs but I try to consider this bonus money when it happens because you just cant rely on it. does this make anymore sense now?


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## QuadPlower

Only you can determine if you can afford to pay this guy. I have a guy that I would love to keep on and make sure he comes back in the summer. But for me, it doesn't make sense yet to pay him salary. He goes to school in the winter and works for me in the summer, so I'm pretty sure he will be back.

On the other hand everyone but you is replaceable and you have to take care of your financial business first. You have to look at him as a piece of equipment. Should you buy that equipment and make more money with it all year or should your just rent it when you need it and make money off of it?

Its just an analogy, I don't mean your worker is a tool. lol


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## redman6565

drivewaydoctor;724345 said:


> I'm going to be needing a guy next year to run a truck on commercial lots. I'm considering staying away from hourly and going with salary. I was thinking $1500 per month salary to operate my truck and he has to be available for every storm with a pay penalty for any storms missed.
> 
> What do you think of the salary option and what do you think of $1500 per month? Fair? Too low?


just remember, people are money movitated, so the more hours he has the chance to put in, the more motivated he'll be. if you set up an salary wage, then he's not as motivated to stay that extra hour to clean up.


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## JD Dave

redman6565;747894 said:


> just remember, people are money movitated, so the more hours he has the chance to put in, the more motivated he'll be. if you set up an salary wage, then he's not as motivated to stay that extra hour to clean up.


That's why we pay a weekly standby plus an hourly wage to try and keep people motivated.


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## redman6565

thats a good idea


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## augerandblade

I dont get paid for doing nothing, so If I guareentee a employee with a certain amount of money that would be made in the winter months being on my crew, theyll get it but in order to get the hours to make that sum when winter work is low, theyll get the hours either performing mechanical work or odd jobs such as heading in to the bushlot cuttin and haulin wood out.


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## blowerman

JD Dave;747911 said:


> That's why we pay a weekly standby plus an hourly wage to try and keep people motivated.


This seems like a good idea. I typically pay out a bonus at the end. This has worked good for me.
I paid one of my employees salary, but because of the laws, everything over 40 had to be paid overtime. In the end it wasn't worth it, just pay them for when they work and offer some type of incentive to be there in winter like JD does.


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## Luther

redman6565;747894 said:


> just remember, people are money movitated, so the more hours he has the chance to put in, the more motivated he'll be. if you set up an salary wage, then he's not as motivated to stay that extra hour to clean up.


Don't be so sure about that. I've found that the kind of people who are motivated by money first don't last very long, and second become problems later.

People like that ask for (or demand) raises yearly or by certain time frames. Just because a period of time goes by does not mean you should get a raise. Why would it? What did that person do, or accomplish above and beyond his job description or responsibilities that entitles him/her for a raise? If he/she is doing the same old, same old.......why would you give them a raise? Just because a period of time passes?!? That's union mentality right there.

Do your customers pay you more each year for doing the same thing? And even more the following?? I don't think so. If anything you're doing it for less.

Great long term employees are motivated by things like a sense of belonging and accomplishment, recognition and the opportunity to grow within an organization. If a person does not posses the willingness to learn or to take on more responsibility, change for the better, get certified, or a number of other positive things to offer more professionalism or efficiencies within your organization........you just have a regular Joe Shmoe there.

More time off to be with family, maybe a monthly free lunch or dinner on the boss, employee appreciation parties, fill up their personal vehicle once a month, employee of the month prize's or perks, company vehicle.........I bet if you thought about it you can come up with many many more.

In turn if you're not willing to commit to a "franchise" player, don't be surprised if the employee doesn't commit to you. Yes money is part of it....but it doesn't depend on it. Things other than money motivates the right kind of people. Those are the players you want on your team, not Mr Crybaby who will threatens to leave because he didn't get a raise this year. Just my 02.


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## JD Dave

blowerman;747968 said:


> This seems like a good idea. I typically pay out a bonus at the end. This has worked good for me.
> I paid one of my employees salary, but because of the laws, everything over 40 had to be paid overtime. In the end it wasn't worth it, just pay them for when they work and offer some type of incentive to be there in winter like JD does.


We actually with hold $50/week for 20 weeks out of there standby pay. If they don't miss any storms they get a $1000 at the end of the season.


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## Mark Oomkes

cretebaby;724647 said:


> You still have to pay overtime to a salaried employee unless they are a manager


crete's right.



JDiepstra;724655 said:


> I know of a local company who pays his guys salary and it seems to work out fine. As stated above, check with labor laws on working overtime. If you do the pay cut with missed hours, I would strongly consider an end of year bonus for perfect attendance. Have you figured out how many hours, on average, you think he will be working per month?


It works fine until someone turns them in to Wage and Hour.

Pay cuts\deductions can get real dicey too.

I know it's different in Canada, but if you're in the US, check with a good labor attorney before implementing some\any of these strategies.


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## redman6565

TCLA;747998 said:


> Don't be so sure about that. I've found that the kind of people who are motivated by money first don't last very long, and second become problems later.
> 
> People like that ask for (or demand) raises yearly or by certain time frames. Just because a period of time goes by does not mean you should get a raise. Why would it? What did that person do, or accomplish above and beyond his job description or responsibilities that entitles him/her for a raise? If he/she is doing the same old, same old.......why would you give them a raise? Just because a period of time passes?!? That's union mentality right there.
> 
> Do your customers pay you more each year for doing the same thing? And even more the following?? I don't think so. If anything you're doing it for less.
> 
> Great long term employees are motivated by things like a sense of belonging and accomplishment, recognition and the opportunity to grow within an organization. If a person does not posses the willingness to learn or to take on more responsibility, change for the better, get certified, or a number of other positive things to offer more professionalism or efficiencies within your organization........you just have a regular Joe Shmoe there.
> 
> More time off to be with family, maybe a monthly free lunch or dinner on the boss, employee appreciation parties, fill up their personal vehicle once a month, employee of the month prize's or perks, company vehicle.........I bet if you thought about it you can come up with many many more.
> 
> In turn if you're not willing to commit to a "franchise" player, don't be surprised if the employee doesn't commit to you. Yes money is part of it....but it doesn't depend on it. Things other than money motivates the right kind of people. Those are the players you want on your team, not Mr Crybaby who will threatens to leave because he didn't get a raise this year. Just my 02.


ya but there's a reason why i am where i am and why they work for me. if an employee, (now i know all don't apply, but the exceptions to this are few and far between) was self-motivated, cared more about the company than himself, gave an extra hour or two a week or a trip to make sure the lot was extra clean, then they wouldn't be an employee. that's why i've always found it easier to pay per the hour, that way they work that extra half hour to clean up. though i do like the idea of a bonus for perfect attendance and maybe a bonus for holidays too.


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## Dan85

RODHALL;725563 said:


> i don't see $1500 a month keeping employees long.
> You need to find someone who will work both your driveway sealing and plowing. and then set down and come up with $$$$ see if company truck would sweetin the deal? see if health insurance?
> 
> i know the guy i had working for me for while he was happy to have a company truck to drive, and took less $$$, he was always making sure it was clean and taken care of.
> 
> Good employees are hard to find, when you find one make sure you do your best to hold onto them.


I agree, for some people a company truck would be a nice incentive. I know that if I ever made it into the upper echelon of a landscaping company, I would definitely ask about having a truck. I like the idea of having your office right there. Also, not having to drive to the shop first to go check a lot or plow saves time too.

- Dan


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## redman6565

Dan85;748221 said:


> I agree, for some people a company truck would be a nice incentive. I know that if I ever made it into the upper echelon of a landscaping company, I would definitely ask about having a truck. I like the idea of having your office right there. Also, not having to drive to the shop first to go check a lot or plow saves time too.
> 
> - Dan


do you know what the insurance liability would be like though? say a storm hits, tree falls on company truck, the company insurance might not cover it because the truck wasn't on a jobsite (lots count as jobsites) or the shop, therefore it falls on the employee. my insurance agent is pretty cool, straight forward, known him for years and that's one of the biggest things he doesn't want me to do, is lend a company vehicle. most companies i know have the employee purchase the vehicle and the company pays for the lettering, fuel and portions of the repairs but not the vehicle itself.


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## Dan85

redman6565;748766 said:


> do you know what the insurance liability would be like though? say a storm hits, tree falls on company truck, the company insurance might not cover it because the truck wasn't on a jobsite (lots count as jobsites) or the shop, therefore it falls on the employee. my insurance agent is pretty cool, straight forward, known him for years and that's one of the biggest things he doesn't want me to do, is lend a company vehicle. most companies i know have the employee purchase the vehicle and the company pays for the lettering, fuel and portions of the repairs but not the vehicle itself.


 I did not realize commercial insurance was so technical. Seems like leaving the truck at any non-job site would be a liability - even stopping at the hardware store. If the truck is strictly being used for work related activities - commuting, checking up on lots, etc. I have to imagine that somewhere, there is some provision that allows it to be covered. Perhaps add the employee's residence as another shop? We allowed one of our older employees to commute in a company truck and I always thought it was a nice extra.

- Dan


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## BMWSTUD25

redman, do you really think it would be that much? I like the idea of using trucks as incentives and at the same time your employees look professional and its great advertising(if they represent you well of course) I was talking with my agent about naming one of my guys as the main driver on one of the trucks this spring when his work will be in it most of the time and it looked to only be a few grand? maybe she was way off or maybe the price idea is all relative. So whats the deal with this liability stuff, im no expert at it so, im wondering how if you name them as the main driver if the truck is at their house and something happens how they can refuse the claim?


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## redman6565

i guess how it was explained to me was, you pay business liability insurance for accidents that occur on your jobsites, shop or en-route. this is how i came to ask the same question you asked me. two years ago my dump truck was in a machine shop for spring repair the shop burnt down totalling my tri-axle. There insurance company had an on-going investigation (which is b.s. talk for we think somebody else started the fire so we're not obligated to cover any losses). Pissed me off. So i go to my insurance. Reluctantly they paid after i pleaded and threatened lawyers because the truck was supposed to be out hauling not having the cab re-built, etc from fire damage. i'm pissed that the machine shop's insurance didnt cover it, but i think i was more pissed that mine gave me such a hassle. so i asked my agent, what if i took a truck home to my house and a tree fell. it's not a jobsite, it was not parked on company property or a company site, so therefore my personal insurance would have to cover it. that's what i was told. i dropped that carrier a year later because of this and since have some provisions added but it's also what you want to pay as a premium for your insurance. obviously letting employees take home company vehicles would cause your rates to be higher, so i don't do that.


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## QuadPlower

Your truck should be 100% business use. Even if you are taking it to the store, there are signs on the side that qualify as advertising.

BMWSTUD, if its going to be a couple grand, wouldn't your worker like that in his pocket as a bonus instead? Mine would. And that would reduce (keep the same) your liabilty of them driving a company truck after hours.

redman, that sucks about your truck in that shop.


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## redman6565

QuadPlower;749767 said:


> Your truck should be 100% business use. Even if you are taking it to the store, there are signs on the side that qualify as advertising.
> 
> BMWSTUD, if its going to be a couple grand, wouldn't your worker like that in his pocket as a bonus instead? Mine would. And that would reduce (keep the same) your liabilty of them driving a company truck after hours.
> 
> redman, that sucks about your truck in that shop.


it is if you're the owner but i'm not sure if an employee borrowing a truck counts


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## QuadPlower

redman6565;749788 said:


> it is if you're the owner but i'm not sure if an employee borrowing a truck counts


Do you mean the 100% business even if for advertising? Sure, who cares how the truck got to the parking lot, everyone walking by can see the logo on the side.

I wanna keep my worker, but giving him a truck is not an option. All I would need is to have it be seen at the local strip club or wrapped around a tree. Yes, I trust him, but Sh!t happens.


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## QuadPlower

redman6565;749788 said:


> it is if you're the owner but i'm not sure if an employee borrowing a truck counts


Who drove your truck to the shop that caught fire? It shouldn't matter and they should have paid. Because they didn't, your insurance should not have given you any trouble about paying for it.


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## redman6565

oh i agree 100%, but after that, I'm leary about having someone take a truck home


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## JD Dave

QuadPlower;749835 said:


> Do you mean the 100% business even if for advertising? Sure, who cares how the truck got to the parking lot, everyone walking by can see the logo on the side.
> 
> I wanna keep my worker, but giving him a truck is not an option. All I would need is to have it be seen at the local strip club or wrapped around a tree. Yes, I trust him, but Sh!t happens.


If i can trust a guy to drive my machinery all day and night, I think I can trust him to drive a truck home. JMO


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## BMWSTUD25

QuadPlower;749767 said:


> Your truck should be 100% business use. Even if you are taking it to the store, there are signs on the side that qualify as advertising.
> 
> BMWSTUD, if its going to be a couple grand, wouldn't your worker like that in his pocket as a bonus instead? Mine would. And that would reduce (keep the same) your liabilty of them driving a company truck after hours.
> 
> redman, that sucks about your truck in that shop.


well I already pay a couple grand to insure them because I have to be listed as a driver and as my agent pointed out I have a few speeding violations that really drive up my rate. I just like the truck being seen out and about and it means less complaining from guys when they have to meet me someplace. But yeah the last thing anybody wants is your truck to be seen wrapped around a tree or at the strip club......wait am I suppose to walk to the strip clud?


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## redman6565

my fear isn't my guys, it's things they can't control i.e. weather, other idiots, burglary, etc.


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## Bajak

I know here in Ontario if an employee has a company truck that they take home it is classed as an income($6 000/year, $500/month average) that they have to claim on their income tax.
I worked for a company that gave all their forman a company vehicle and they were audited and as you can imagine the foremen were all P.Oed when they found out they had to pay the taxes on the extra income. I'm not sure when this came into effect (mid 90s I believe) but it might be something for driveway doctor to look into.

I worked for an excavation company where the owner also had his used car dealership license and what we did to get around it was he leased us a company truck and then gave us a check for use of our truck. One canceled out the other for income tax purposes. That I know is a unique situation though.


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## redman6565

Bajak;749902 said:


> I know here in Ontario if an employee has a company truck that they take home it is classed as an income($6 000/year, $500/month average) that they have to claim on their income tax.
> I worked for a company that gave all their forman a company vehicle and they were audited and as you can imagine the foremen were all P.Oed when they found out they had to pay the taxes on the extra income. I'm not sure when this came into effect (mid 90s I believe) but it might be something for driveway doctor to look into.
> 
> I worked for an excavation company where the owner also had his used car dealership license and what we did to get around it was he leased us a company truck and then gave us a check for use of our truck. One canceled out the other for income tax purposes. That I know is a unique situation though.


ya that's an odd combo...construction and car sales


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## QuadPlower

I didn't mean I don't trust them to drive it and wrap it around a tree. I ment someone or some thing caused them to crash.

Being seen at the strip club is not an issue either as he can park next to my truck. 

I think a lot of good ideas were offered here on how to keep an employee. Sit down and talk to him and see what he wants. Maybe a gym membership or a tank of gas a month is enough. Or maybe you can't offer him enough and he wants to move on.

Good Luck


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