# Major job - help bidding - 2 million sq ft



## sk187 (Dec 7, 2006)

I am working on a bid now for a large shopping complex, but need some guidance on how to bid it.

The specs are as follows 

1,267,726 sq ft road and parking lot plowing
51,809 sq ft side walk plowing
411,138 sq ft total salt

Bid is per push/pull, over 1.5 inches is mandatory, under 1.5 inches is there choice, and over 3 I have to set a price either per inch or per hour.

The lot is mainly empty at night except for 1 bar that is open until 2 , so most of the plow area will need to be plowed.

Most snow stock pile areas are easy to get to each pass (no overly long pushes).

I have a 

2007 John Deere 544 that I will get a 16' box plow for

X-county truck with 12' hyd angle blade / belly blade / and ez-8 salt spreader/ auger / 6 yd box for salt.

2006 John Deere skid steer that I can outfit anyway I need for side walks or plowing.

I think I will sub out the pickup truck plowing and clean up work to plowsite members in the area.

The person in charge of snow plow contracts said it took the previous company 6+ hrs to plow under 3 inches across the site. The previous company had a loader with normal 5yrd bucket, backhoe with normal bucket, and several pickups.


If anyone has any tips on bidding please let me know with a reply in this post.

My plan was just to calculate salt cost and then figure a hourly rate for each piece of equipment and multiply that by 8hrs.

Again any help or tips is greatly appreciated.

thanks.


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## lawnMaster5000 (Jul 28, 2000)

I dont bid on big lots like that but one question that comes to mind for me on big stuff like that is how fast do they need it clean.

I work as a sub on several shopping centers here and they want a truck there at all times during an event. (salt runs ok) Lot needs to be watering up within a few hours of end of event. Main isles and sidewalks kept clear during events, if they are open.

8 hours would not be acceptable for these clients. Check to see what your potential clients expect. Is this why they are firing the old guy?


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## sk187 (Dec 7, 2006)

lawnMaster5000;396614 said:


> I dont bid on big lots like that but one question that comes to mind for me on big stuff like that is how fast do they need it clean.
> 
> I work as a sub on several shopping centers here and they want a truck there at all times during an event. (salt runs ok) Lot needs to be watering up within a few hours of end of event. Main isles and sidewalks kept clear during events, if they are open.
> 
> 8 hours would not be acceptable for these clients. Check to see what your potential clients expect. Is this why they are firing the old guy?


This is a mall and they are not very demanding , they actually only require 1 plow of the side walks per event and there staff keeps them clean after that.

They also only salt the entry ways not the sidewalks.

The previous guy was fired because he always wanted to argue there was not enough snow to plow when the mall called him.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

That's almost 29 acres of plowing. If you assume an acre per hour per truck, that makes it almost 29 man hours with trucks. I think that average is a little low, and throw in the loader with ProTech and you're still going to be looking at more time than you have equipment. Add to that the lake effect that you receive and continual plowing, you're never going to get the job done with the equipment you have. 

What happens if the loader goes down? Or the muni truck?

Do you know what the requirements are for malls before Christmas?

If it were me, I'd have 2 loaders with ProTechs, 2 'set-up' vehicles--either pickups or SS's for getting the snow away from the edges, and the tight areas and daytime plowing. I would also have at least 2 salt trucks in case one breaks and also for late snows as well as just plain old being able to get the work done in a timely manner. Then start working on the sidewalks. 

The parking lot will probably not be quite as open as you think, either. Employees stocking, inventory, getting ready for sales both after closing as well as before opening are going to make for more cars than you think. The bar area won't empty out until at least 3 AM.


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## sk187 (Dec 7, 2006)

The method I have decided is 

1 loader with 16' hyd angle plow (converts to box)
1 muni truck with 12' plow and belly blade
1 skid steer with 80+ inch blower

and as many regular pickups as it takes.

The skid steer cleans the curb so the loader(s) and muni truck have nothing but strait shots.
The skid steer then cleans and salts the side walks.

I have several loaders I can use if the storm is bad, just many are on job sites for excavation.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Maybe I'm off on the size,but i helped out here a few times plowing.They had 15 loaders with push boxes.When it snowed at Christmas time they had every parking spot cleared out and all the snow hauled off the property.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'd go with more loaders if I had them available. 1 loader with a good operator will replace 3 trucks with blades.


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## WMHLC (Jul 31, 2005)

I would run 2 loaders with 16ft pushers and two skids for the walks/set-up and one pickup doing clean-up. Just think about a late, or day time storm, its going to be a nightmare. With only one loader its should take about 10 hours to clear that, wide open with no cars. Add cars I bet it would take 15plus, I would hate to see you get fired for taking all day and night to clear the lots.


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## RBRONKEMA GHTFD (Dec 17, 2006)

I would bid this account you are talking about, but I subbed there last year 1 time (i now the guy that had the account last year) and I will never plow there again. It is to much on the pick ups. I would plow it all with skid steers and loaders. Just like lowes and wal-mart A skid steer would work better than a pick up truck. JMO!


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## sk187 (Dec 7, 2006)

They want the bid as a hourly rate and as cheap as possible as they just came out of bankruptcy.

My bid has figured in 7 hrs with 2" or less of snow. 

This includes 

-1 loader with a 16' power blade that has sides to make it a box plow.
-1 Muni truck with 12' power angle blade/belly blade/salt spreader.
-1 Skid Steer with 8' blower.
-1-2 Pickups with plows.

The loader and muni push the snow to the curbs where snow is to be stacked and the blower shoots the snow 30' into a ditch. This method eliminates snow removal which will save the mall alot of money.


I have more loaders readily available but will not have the 16' pushers on them.


I think I should be able to handle this and after a trial first run I can add equipment accordingly as it is a hourly rate.


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## RBRONKEMA GHTFD (Dec 17, 2006)

Yeah but you can't rely on that blower because the chains on those things love to break and fall off. Plus the highway is right there too. What if you shot a rock or something at a car, and also a loader with a push box is going to bring alot of snow to the end of one of those runs. I know they don't seem very long but trust me they bring alot of snow. Think of when we get dumped on with a foot + of snow and that blower that could, isn't going to anymore. I don't know but if it was up to me I would have atleast 1 loader on each side and a skid on each side each stacking snow too.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

7 hours per piece of equipment? I hope?


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

This is just my .02 because I have never plowed such a large area. But am bidding one this year.

RBRONKEMA GHTFD's blower comment about the chains breaking is right on. They move alot of snow, but it is slow going. If you got 3" of snow and it was all pushed over to the ditch you would be looking at 11,000 cubic yards of un-packed snow so maybe 3,000 cuyd packed. (that is a guess based on it redusing volume by 1/3) If your ditch is 30' wide x 30' deep x 100' long, it will hold 3,333 cuyd of snow. If it is longer, deeper, narrower, etc, than that volume would change. If it was 1000 feet long it would hold 33,333 cuyd. or 10 3" snow falls. Obviously melting will occur at some point and types of snow would make a difference.

I would keep the skid with the blower doing sidewalks and maybe helping out with the stacking when time allowed, but would us a loader to push it into the hole.

RBRONKEMA GHTFD: How long did it take to plow it last year? What kind of equipment was used?

MARK's equipment figures are what I would use if I could get them.

Again, my specialty is sidewalks. So take it for what its worth.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I don't think that snowblower mounted blower is going to be quite as productive as you think, even if your SS is a high flow model. If it isn't, it won't work.


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## sk187 (Dec 7, 2006)

The job is now asking for a seasonal quote.

I have it figured as 
2 loaders with 16' power angle blades that can turn into push boxes.
1 muni truck with 12' power angle blade / belly blade / salter
1 skid steer with 8' blower

no pickups at this point as I think the 4 items above can handle it.


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## RBRONKEMA GHTFD (Dec 17, 2006)

I was there doing clean up work with my truck for 4 hours and then I called it quits because I had alot of other stuff to do. (my own stuff). The contractor had 2 loaders and 2 john deere tractors 3520s I thinks or something like that. Plus a big salt truck and a few clean up trucks. I was there because one of the clean up trucks was out of service.


You are still going to need to get another skid in there to do clean up work. In my opinion I would leave it for someone else this year, get everything figured out and then bid it next year. Also then you will get a chance to see what the other guy is using to do it too. JMO!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Back in my #6 the contractor was paid 500,000.00 as a retainer just to be there and the mall was charged and hourly rate foe each piece of equipment.

I would back off this also,but when it snows try and get there and take notes of what's happing.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

sk187;396915 said:


> The job is now asking for a seasonal quote.
> 
> I have it figured as
> 2 loaders with 16' power angle blades that can turn into push boxes.
> ...


Thats a big site for a seasonal bid. 
Make sure you have plenty of CYA in the bid with a total snow fall cap. Have an agreement in place (before the season) to who will be measuring for your total. Thats alot of pavement for no cleanup rigs. A couple trucks with Blizzards PP or V-blades would be included in my bid. What about salt truck backup ? I would have a back up salt truck of some sort. I see Mark allready mentioned that. If you store salt on site you could get away with a 2 yard v box for BACKUP only. 
On the subject of salt is that included in your seasonal price ? If it is I would make sure you have plenty of CYA in that as well.
Good luck


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

May I ask how much experience you have with actual plowing? This is related to the other thread you started about finding seasonal snowfall amounts.


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## ultimate plow (Jul 2, 2002)

This size of a job requires at least a cupple large loaders with boxs and big CDL trucks with salt spreaders. At least 7 good size dump trucks all set up and pickups to do the small stuff. And whats up with them wanting you to only shovel walks one time? That big of a place I dont think the employees could handle all the shoveling? That would bother me if a customer said that


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

sk187;396915 said:


> The job is now asking for a seasonal quote.
> 
> I have it figured as
> 2 loaders with 16' power angle blades that can turn into push boxes.
> ...


So what happens when it starts snowing at 5 AM? Or the lake effect kicks in?

What about the walks? The SS will be tied up blowing the entire time and not have time for walks.

FWIW, the SS isn't going to cut it. You need a tractor with a minimum of 150 HP PTO. Blowing snow that has been plowed isn't at all like blowing fresh snow.


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## Quality SR (Oct 25, 2006)

I agree with these guys. I have never plowed anything this big either. Like someone said i would bid on it next year, and take notes this year. I would also say if you do anything this big or any size i would have a back up or a back up plan. God forbid something breaks down what are you going to do? Also like i said i never plowed anything this big. Can the pickups push in to piles around the lot and just use the loaders to take the piles to where that ditch is? Lets say every pickup has 50,000sf, and the keep pushing to the end of there spot and the loader will haul it off.


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## RBRONKEMA GHTFD (Dec 17, 2006)

Quality sr you could use the pick ups to plow the lot itself but you would need about 20 trucks to do 50000 sqf each to make it the total 2 mill. It would work tho but I would have like 3 or 4 trucks per side and a loader on each side with a skid on each side.


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## Quality SR (Oct 25, 2006)

RBRONKEMA GHTFD;397043 said:


> Quality sr you could use the pick ups to plow the lot itself but you would need about 20 trucks to do 50000 sqf each to make it the total 2 mill. It would work tho but I would have like 3 or 4 trucks per side and a loader on each side with a skid on each side.


I just used the 50,000sf as a number. That would be alot of trucks. lol. I was just wonding if that would work. There are 2 lots by me that have to be 200,000 each. I know it isnt as big as 2 million. They are 2 strip malls. 1 contractor does them both. I only saw 1 loader with a regular bucket. There was a box plow, it had to be 18-20' that was off to the side. 2 bob cat SS with boxes, 2 ford rack trucks with v boxes ( no plow just salt trucks) and a couple of pickups. Me and my brother pulled in there one night to stop at Dunkin Donuts, it is in the same lot. The pick ups would make piles, and SS would take the snow near 1 location and the loader was stacking it. I know that the push box was for that loader but all he was doing was stacking the snow near the back of the building. It is just a thought.


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## sk187 (Dec 7, 2006)

The actual plowing area is more along the lines of 1.1 million sq feet after you remove the ares designated as pile areas.

The side walks I found out today are not all going to be plowed as they are sidewalks that lead to vacant stores.

The bid has changed to seasonal and they want to try and keep it under 120,000.

With that 120,000 I will include a cap on snowfall.

I have plowed alot before but nothing of this size ( stip malls, apartments, and so on).

We have the equipment on demand if the jobs calls for more at certain times.

I am still weighing all the different options out and plan to have a sub list of 4 pickups.


We are the company doing all the excavation and remodeling work on the mall right now.

Also the mall supervisor has told me what price area the bids were in previous years and its all been under 120,000.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So the sidewalks, salting and plowing all for $120K? 

No wonder the previous contractor didn't want to plow, he was losing his ass.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

It is hard to tell by the picture but we have a mall that looks smaller then that. We average 20 pushes per year and at most 50 saltings. Our mall goes for $375,000. There are a few pickups in there but the main clearing is done with 3 loaders with 16' boxes on them. Your price sounds very low for what I see.


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## RBRONKEMA GHTFD (Dec 17, 2006)

The pic that is up is of something Grandview had I beleive? I know I would be plowing it for more than 120,000. I would be charging, well nevermind what I would be charging.payup I wouldn't do it bcause I don't want you to lose your A$$ on the deal. I mean it would be a great account to have but that is to cheap to plow that lot for. JMO!


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

sk187;397053 said:


> The actual plowing area is more along the lines of 1.1 million sq feet after you remove the ares designated as pile areas.
> 
> The side walks I found out today are not all going to be plowed as they are sidewalks that lead to vacant stores.
> 
> ...


So they just let the snow pile up in front of store fronts on the walks ? What about showing the stores to potential clients ? The big one is fire lanes, most insurance companys require access 360 around the buildings for fire dept access. You can bet you will be the one clearing the walks when there is 3' of snow on them and they get called out by the Insurance Company or Fire Dept. They dont need to be spot less and salted but there has to be access.

What is your average number of pushes per season ? What about salt, how many runs do you average per season ? What is your total snow fall average ?

You take average number of pushes, average number of salt runs, factor in some CYA and then your profit. 
That number seems awefully low, unless perhaps your salt is not included. Did you ask the mangager if that was an all inclusive price ?

Did you actually figure a price out yet for seasonal ? Or did the site manager just telll you that ? Seams in my experience the number tossed out to me is allways low, and we end up negotiating up from there.
The only way to do this right is like I stated above. Even with a cap you may be way off. Plus they might not sign a caped seasonal. The boys in some snow belt areas (like some areas in NY) cant get caps.


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## jcesar (Sep 14, 2006)

well, i am gonna add my .02 worth. i plow mostly commercial, but I also live in a small town. nothing this size even exists here. I gotta say though, after my 12 years of plowing, i think you are off base on this lot. With the equipment you have listed, and the size lot you have, for under 120k? I think you will be sorry you ever bid it. 

Not to mention the fact that you are gonna have down time on your equipment that will be onsite.
That is a certainty.
I wish you luck, and hope you think this through before you bid


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## snoking (Jul 4, 2002)

lol i think we bid the same job....that looks the grandville???....let me know they said last i heard they didnt make up their mind yet but its been a couple weeks.....



sorry just finished reading all the posts....if thats the #'s you bid youll have it......we were 380,000 for plowing 100,000 down on salt, and 80/ton applied and that applied price takes into account there down payment. i had to get pre-approved at michigan-cat for the equipment before i even bid on it, its so big. i planed on 5 new 938 cat loaders 3 14' Daniels box's and 2 20' Daniels Wing Plows, two 277b track skidsteers, and like 5 trucks....not to mention 2-3 salt trucks every trip just to get the salt down......


if you need help though i can have loaders there in 45 mins on the lowboy to help


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## Gicon (Oct 1, 2005)

SK, your story just keeps getting better and better. First off, you need to take RBRONKEMA GHTFD to lunch or dinner, because that guy has valuable knowledge that can help you tremendously. I am sure he would be willing to talk to you, as he seems pretty passionate that that place would be a bad idea. Obviously $20,000 per month for 6 months is so far under priced for a lot of that size its not even funny. And the best part about your story is when you said they just came out of bankruptcy and they want to keep the bid low...........Do you like chasing your money???? Your not seriously going to put all that equipment on the ground for 20k a month that your probably not even going to get if this mall cant even stay in business are you????


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## sk187 (Dec 7, 2006)

snoking;400914 said:


> lol i think we bid the same job....that looks the grandville???....let me know they said last i heard they didnt make up their mind yet but its been a couple weeks.....
> 
> sorry just finished reading all the posts....if thats the #'s you bid youll have it......we were 380,000 for plowing 100,000 down on salt, and 80/ton applied and that applied price takes into account there down payment. i had to get pre-approved at michigan-cat for the equipment before i even bid on it, its so big. i planed on 5 new 938 cat loaders 3 14' Daniels box's and 2 20' Daniels Wing Plows, two 277b track skidsteers, and like 5 trucks....not to mention 2-3 salt trucks every trip just to get the salt down......
> 
> if you need help though i can have loaders there in 45 mins on the lowboy to help


Its not the Grandville / Rivertown mall it is the Westshore mall in Holland.

I got the job for more then I had said on here in previous posts. I am using 1 JD 544 loader with a power angle 16' blade, 1 JD 544 with a 16' box blade, 1 muni truck with 14' power blade, belly blade and spreader, 2 JD skid steers 1 with blower and 1 with box.

I have a rental agreement worked out with a local company to get loaders as needed per event (not per month) for a very good price.

I work out all the hourly rates and if we have a mild winter should come out pretty far ahead, a heavy winter and it will be close.

I will use this year to get a feel for the job and price next year accordingly.


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## RBRONKEMA GHTFD (Dec 17, 2006)

SK187, I just want to say good luck to you and your crew that are going to be plowing there. I am not trying to step on your toes by saying that. I am just giving you credit for trying it out this year. Hope it all works outs for you. Are you going to have any pick up trucks there? If it was up to me I would have 4 pick ups there atleast an hour to two hours before hand to clean up around everything and then have the guys come in with the loaders. Or you can do it vise versa from that. I am not sure how manuveralbe those loaders are but think of it as a ztr in a tight area and the pick ups are the string trimmers. Make sence? just a different way of looking at it.

Ryan


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## snoking (Jul 4, 2002)

ok cool, sorry for getting on you didnt mean to.....but you are still cheap i used to plow that a couple years ago, got subed from a guy in grand haven, low 200's you would still get it. 

have they decided yet? dont worry im committed at grandville till they award it to someone so i wont be bidding against you. but if you like i would have some great equipment to help you handle it so you dont have to buy it, if you care to talk....231-206-9353

i bailed a guy out last year in holland at sams club and couple other places and he hasnt paid....so im looking to add to what i take from him....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So Rivertown is dumping the current contractor, who is about a mile away, for someone who is 45 miles away? And has been doing it every year except the first. 

Not to mention, having about twice as much equipment on site as they currently do, and who in their right mind would sell salt for $80\ton applied?


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Someone change the name of this thread to Lesson #1 for beginners. This should be posted as a teaching tool for others.

If you have no idea how many times you plow per season, you better start small to cover your loses. Someone in this area last year bid Red Robin at $xxx seasonally, In february, they went back to the customer and said they were done for the year, it had snowed too much - someone else had to come in and cover their butt. Was last year an average year or above average?? What about the years previous???? You will get your pockets cleaned in this area if you don't know this info. And do you think other vendors, your competitors, are gonna tell you the truth about how many events we average?? Heck no, you aren't even honest about what your contract was worth..

On potential large projects, it is well worth your while to watch a property being plowed, cause when your off 10% on time, it's outa your pocket.

You cannot test the waters at a price this year and come back next year and expect to get the job for what it's worth - even if the service is junk, all the customer will remember is that they had a contract for 100k and hell will freeze over before they pay substanionally more.

How much is your money worth?? On large projects you WILL have a large amount of money out there for labor, materials and fuel - you yourself won't get paid till March.

All that new equipment, did you work to buy it?? No, your father did. I don't think you have any idea on what it takes to purchase/replace that stuff.

Dude, you got that job for 100K - if we have a year like last year - the only thing saving your butt will be that papa owns the tractors you drive. You had numerous people on here, people with more experience that you've been breathing warning you off this account - and you still went ahead and wrecked it..... I hope like heck we have an above average year and the man reels you back in before you cause too much damage.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

I don't do stuff this big, nor do I want to.

However, this is my .02. 

When the owner / manager told you they paid $120k last year, your bid should have immediately went to $175 - $200k.

I'm so sick and tired of guys "being told" what the last contractor was doing it for, or what the customer is willing to pay. 

Do you walk into McD's and say I'm paying you .75 for this hamburger??

Do you go to the gas station and say I'm giving you $1.60 / gallon for diesel??

No. Just like I'm not told what I'm going to be paid.

If you don't like my price, then I don't care. I move on. Some properties, competition thinks I'm cheap. I don't care, it's the price I charge. Some customers think I'm too expensive. I don't care, there's more customers.

You CANNOT be told what you're going to get paid. The mall is in business to make money, not make contractors rich. They will tell you a lowball number, I don't care how buddy-buddy you are with the guy.

Even if he was telling you the truth, there's a reason they fired the guy. They should be expecting you to charge more.

After all, this is a service industry. The bank that demands to be plowed at 6 am is being charged more than the industrial building that only cares if they're plowed within 24 hours from the end of the snowstorm.

I don't see how you can plow 1.2M sq ft for $120,000, not to mention all the other work.


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## Ozone (Dec 5, 2003)

I definitely learned a few things in this thread.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

sk187;396609 said:


> I am working on a bid now for a large shopping complex, but need some guidance on how to bid it.
> 
> The specs are as follows
> 
> ...


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## Duracutter (Oct 25, 2006)

sk187;396609 said:


> I am working on a bid now for a large shopping complex, but need some guidance on how to bid it.
> 
> The specs are as follows
> 
> ...


Seriously, if you have to ask for help, you're in trouble right there!!

You don't have enough experience and probably don't have the equipment and the financial resources. Why are so many people offering you advice?? 

Once you're big enough and have deeper pockets with all the machines, you wouldn't even think to ask on here, you'd instinctively know what to do.

If you have a family, "don't" do it, you'll hurt them and yourself as well.

If you're single and a sort of gambler type...hehe... what have you got to lose but your shirt and your life savings if they sue you for non-performance of contract...

:waving:


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

"I have several loaders I can use if the storm is bad, just many are on job sites for excavation."

i think its more risky having equipment that is sitting there not making any money. come winter the excavation will be slowing down. he seems to be at the level to "step up"and has already stated a basic approach to the job.
if your trying to avoid risk i think snow removal is the wrong business. being self employed is probably the wrong business. everyone second guesses themself from time to time and i think this is the appropriate place to do that. it is unfortunate that he hasnt had input from more qualified members in his local area. he isnt building the mall he's removing snow and ice from it.  
if he can do excavation he can move snow.


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## YardMedic (Nov 29, 2006)

I can't even begin to comprehend this property as it's far beyond any commercial I've ever done. It does seem, however, that there were some great pointers from the very beginning of this thread (read: BEFORE this guy bid this property seasonal) and he ignored every one of them. While each contractor's numbers ARE individual, it sounds like some basic calculations would show even $250k for everything is still leaving his bare butt out in the cold. 

On a happier note.... store this thread away til next summer & every member near Holland can bid the account because they might be looking!


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I tried reading through this today and got really lost. I couldn't keep up with all the twists and changes. Seems to have started with a "per push" bid with hourly over 3". They aren't very picky, but the last contractor was fired because they called him before enough snow had fallen to plow.(?)  . The sidewalks only needed to be shoveled once per ev event and the staff would shovel after that, but most of the stores were empty so the sidewalks there didn't need to be shoveled at all. Then they wanted a seasonal bid (I have to wonder if this guy has any experience with seasonal bidding at all; let alone something like this). The management is telling him what they won't pay more than (then why ask for a bid?).

As far as equipment - it was obvious from the start he had no idea of what it took to maintain something this size. Then he's going to "test the waters" this year and come back next year with a real bid. That just tells me he has NO CLUE how these places work - getting the lowball/new company every year; running them into the ground and find another one the next year. 

One question - Did you get a Request For Proposal outlining expectations - especially insurance requirements? My advise would be a five million dollar policy (at least). You're going to need it. But my first piece of advise would be to check with your agent - I suspect no underwriter is going to issue you a policy for that place at any price.


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## REAPER (Nov 23, 2004)

I wonder if this guy has a green Dodge Ram for sale?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

That's too funny REAPER. LMAO

AFAIK, most of these posts the last couple days have been pointless, as the contract has been awarded, and from what I heard from the grapevine, it wasn't $120K, either. Other than framer bringing it back up.

Like has been said, advice was given, and ignored, so I'm not sure why he even asked as it appeared the OP didn't want any if it was contrary to his thoughts. Heck, if the guy was halfway serious and had actually answered some of the questions thrown out to him, I would have tried to help him more, but he just wouldn't listen. He could've bought me lunch and I would have driven out there to go over it with him, if I thought my advice would have been accepted. Assuming I'm qualified.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

sk187;401058 said:


> Its not the Grandville / Rivertown mall it is the Westshore mall in Holland.
> 
> I got the job for more then I had said on here in previous posts. I am using 1 JD 544 loader with a power angle 16' blade, 1 JD 544 with a 16' box blade, 1 muni truck with 14' power blade, belly blade and spreader, 2 JD skid steers 1 with blower and 1 with box.
> 
> ...


CONGRADULATIONS! i hope it works out for you!


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

My point may have got lost in my rant....

He said his contract was for more than the 120, it's not, it's 100 in fact.

It just really burns me up to see another local account wrecked like that.

That guy is like 24 years old, sitting on what 200K in new equipment, just the skid steer and loader alone and bids that dirtball cheap. The thing is, a normal year in this area and he will end up with a small amount of money left over at the end of the year, but that's not considering anything for equipment.

It costs money to run trucks/tractors, and fuel is the least of that cost - people like him that have the keys handed to them make it difficult for the rest of us.

And yea, I did bid on this property, for what I was willing to do it at - I could care less that we didn't get the property, I'm more upset that such a small number has been put on a property that is worth 50% more.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Personally,
I THINK ITS GREAT. He had a list of people on here giving him a hard time. I hope he runs that contract out for the next ten years!
24 years old? so? Chances are the family didnt just hand it to him. It probably came with HUGE expectations and that can be scarier than oweing money for it. Your talking about ruining the job by bidding low. what about the mall who just came out of bk and doesnt have all the stores leased? Hopefully this is a good business deal for both sides.
If you grow your company and have a child like him trying to do what he is doing i think you would be VERY proud.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

bribrius;412524 said:


> Personally,
> I THINK ITS GREAT. He had a list of people on here giving him a hard time. I hope he runs that contract out for the next ten years!
> 24 years old? so? Chances are the family didnt just hand it to him. It probably came with HUGE expectations and that can be scarier than oweing money for it. Your talking about ruining the job by bidding low. what about the mall who just came out of bk and doesnt have all the stores leased? Hopefully this is a good business deal for both sides.
> If you grow your company and have a child like him trying to do what he is doing i think you would be VERY proud.


Just remember..... there's been many many family members that end up running a perfectly good built up business right into the ground.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

bribrius;412524 said:


> Personally,
> I THINK ITS GREAT. He had a list of people on here giving him a hard time. I hope he runs that contract out for the next ten years! What's great about someone screwing up on pricing a huge job? He won't run it out for 10 years, because at that rate he will be bankrupt in less than 5, unless he covers his losses with his excavating business.
> 
> 24 years old? so? You're right, it doesn't matter except that wisdom comes with experience and age, unless you're Solomon.
> ...


Follow SnoFarmer's advice, go back on the porch.


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## troy28282 (Sep 26, 2002)

100 grand, so thats the contract for half the season, right? How did you come up with that number, did you go to the store and buy a 100 grand candy bar and decide that was a good number for that site. This guy doesn't know how to bid. There are sites alittle bit smaller that went for more money then this site. There is no way to turn a profit at that price let alone cover the expences. Last time I checked they werent giving away free fuel and John Deere loaders. 

He must be the same one the quoted a trucking warehouse for 10 grand when it was previously a 40 grand contract.

My trucks past the mall about 4 times during a storm so I am going to keep an eye on it.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

enough already Mark. its done. get over it. congradulate the kid. wish him well.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

bribrius;412596 said:


> enough already Mark. its done. get over it. congradulate the kid. wish him well.


Be glad to, as soon as you stop giving bad advice and\or incorrect information. You stop, I stop. Simple for most people.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

bribrius;412596 said:


> enough already Mark. its done. get over it. congradulate the kid. wish him well.


I have no bone to pick with you bribrius..... I don't want to get in an arguement, but here's the deal.

Mark NEEDS to run this into the ground.

This is the EXACT reason there are so many areas of either this industry or the green industry that the prices are the same they were 20 years ago.

You have many people that have no idea how to bid, they look at a number on paper, and think, WOW look at that check I'll get.

I just saw in the local paper that the town hired a company to do all their properties where the owner doesn't mow. They're charging $55 / hour. I was charging the city $55 / hour 10 years ago. I didn't keep doing it because they thought I was too expensive.

Here's the kicker.... the city doesn't even pay the freaking bill, they charge it to the homeowner, and put a lien on the property. It shouldn't MATTER what I was charging.

Just like here. A property that should be paying 50%+ more is going to keep looking for the cheap cheap bid, keeping the rest of the industry down.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Bribrius,

hear boy!! hear!
I have a nice comfortable chair right next to me on the porch 
and the beer is cold.
Some times you need to let the big guys hash it out.

I thought we agreed you could learn more reading this thread than posting in it.
Why do you think a dozed posts disappeared earlier.

You are out of your league.


I would be glad to congratulate him if he is still in business in the spring.

jmo


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

LwnmwrMan22;412612 said:


> I have no bone to pick with you bribrius..... I don't want to get in an arguement, but here's the deal.
> 
> Mark NEEDS to run this into the ground.
> 
> ...


i completley understand. i deal with it myself. however it goes beyond what your asking for the lot. factories, mills, office workers etc. etc. etc. dont get me going. the mall has employees. the mall is competing wiith big box stores. the mall already filed bk once. big box stores pay crap to their employees. the mall has to pay crap to its employees. the property taxes go up. the mall pays more. the employees make less. the homeowners pay more. everyone complains. and they want how much for mowing? its all the same. im not sure if you see the correlation but its there. everyone is trying to survive. i understand Marks concern. your concern. how people run their business is their perogative. i think there is a line that cant be crossed though. when your knocking someone or discouraging the bid you crossed the line. if mark had that contract would the mall be out of business and the employees be gone? probably not. but if it was id rather see mark out of business and the mall still trying to compete with walmart. why does the city care its passed along to the homeowner? the city is homeowners. many of which make crap money themselves. if the kids happy with it and pulls a profit. the malls happy with it. they lease the stores and hire more people. great. it all worked out. i know it sucks. remember when the mom a pop stores went out of business? well your seeing the same effects trickle down. sad but true. so i say let them run their business however they like. if i cant compete and im not profitable ill find a new one. thats why i stated in about ten posts now that if i dont make x for plowing i wont leave myhouse and my truck wont leave my driveway. in the mean time i congradulate the kid on the contract. nothing wrong with that when you look at the whole picture.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

bribrius;412632 said:


> i completley understand..(((((Not by a long shot))))))) factories, mills, office workers etc. etc. etc. dont get me going. the mall has employees. the mall is competing wiith big box stores. the mall already filed bk once. big box stores pay crap to their employees. the mall has to pay crap to its employees. the property taxes go up. the mall pays more. the employees make less. the homeowners pay more. everyone complains. and they want how much for mowing? .


It's the trickle up effect. 
It's the little guys fault everything costs to much because the plowing and lawn mowing is so high priced...
Maybe If we did it for free we would be still paying 1940's prices for things.......

lol

Ps I to agree with Mark.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

SnoFarmer;412644 said:


> It's the trickle up effect.
> It's the little guys fault everything costs to much because the plowing and lawn mowing is so high priced...
> Maybe If we did it for free we would be still paying 1940's prices for things.......
> 
> ...


trickle down effect. i think if everyone continued to ask fair pay for services but refused to shop at a discount store and attempted to buy only american products it might balance out. cant have it both ways. your either going to make more money and pay more money for other people to have good jobs or make less and pay less while making other people make less while getting your goods from china.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

bribrius;412647 said:


> trickle down effect. .


Down is when the govt gives money/tax breaks/loans to big business to create jobs.
Up is giving the little guy the money to spend hopping it will fuel the economy.

If The little guy charges less by your own admission big money saves or has the money to pay employees, ie create jobs.

so it $ trickles up...


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Bri - no offense but you collect a paycheck from someone else evry week or so don't you?

You plow here and there to make a few extra bucks right??

Well, some of use do this for a living - we only collect a paycheck when our business is PROFITABLE. We kick our feet up on the desk for a few extra hours per week and it effects our paycheck - if you do it, your check is the same.

Until you run your own business, successfully, I don't think you'll ever understand.

Locally, construction is slowing down dramatically. Some people have started working for what we call wages - keeps food on the table money. The problem is, when a nail gun breaks or saw blades get dull, how do you pay for it?? A business must work for wages, overhead and of course we all hope a profit - otherwise you will slowly fade away. That place for 100k a year will barely cover wages and either profit or overhead, with a year like last year, he'll be lucky to cover wages. The problem with this is that A) you can't pay your overhead bills or B) you work till you die..... Nice business plan.....


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

SnoFarmer;412644 said:


> Ps I to agree with Mark.


I do too.. 
Bri Bri It wouldnt hurt to sit back and JUST read once in a while.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I don't want to get involved but we just lost a contract that we've been doing for 8 years that was worth around 200K. The guy that got the bid came in at 100k. I don't know the guy that got it but I wish him luck. These lowballers must love plowing snow for fun. I like plowing snow but the only thing that gets me out of bed at 1 am is money. (sad but true). They gave me the oppurtunity to match his price and I declined. Then as I was leaving they said that if they ran into problems with this new guy was it all right to call me to bail them out. To make a long story short I said no. You just get a place to where it is profitable and somebody comes in and #[email protected]%$ it all up. Sorry my rant is over.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Would you congratulate the kid if he was awarded the contract at $50K???

25K???

10K?? 

Are you saying congratulations just because he got the contract, no matter what the pay???


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

LwnmwrMan22;412665 said:


> Would you congratulate the kid if he was awarded the contract at $50K???
> 
> 25K???
> 
> ...


Yes. but get to those numbers i wouldnt wish it upon him. at least where he is now (im not sure if anyone really knows without a doubt what he bid) he believes its feasible, or at least possible that he could pull a profit. i definatley wouldnt want to see him "lose his ass" anymore than id want to see the mall pay out more than they can afford and go back in bk without hiring and filling the stores.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

SK 187 hasn't even been on this site since his last post Sept 3. I guess he got enough advice. LOL


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## Tommy10plows (Jan 1, 2001)

*Pricing a mall*

You know, a very old friend of mine was just convicted under RICO along with several others for the same type of discussion regarding pricing in the trash business. It seems that there was an agreement to set up protected stops and the rates were agreed to in advance, with one company agreeing not to bid, or to offer a higher bid, in the event that someone else's customer called another company for a bid.

I would be very cautious when these discussions about pricing are held in a public forum and the specifics of a particular property are discussed in such great detail. Nothing good can come from it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Tommy10plows;412755 said:


> You know, a very old friend of mine was just convicted under RICO along with several others for the same type of discussion regarding pricing in the trash business. It seems that there was an agreement to set up protected stops and the rates were agreed to in advance, with one company agreeing not to bid, or to offer a higher bid, in the event that someone else's customer called another company for a bid.
> 
> I would be very cautious when these discussions about pricing are held in a public forum and the specifics of a particular property are discussed in such great detail. Nothing good can come from it.


The only thing that has been discussed is that this kid is crazy to think he can stay in business by allowing the customer to set his prices. And some about what this lot is worth. Nothing to do with who is bidding\not bidding and actual rates. I think we're just fine.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LwnmwrMan22;412665 said:


> Would you congratulate the kid if he was awarded the contract at $50K???
> 
> 25K???
> 
> ...


Excellent point.



bribrius;412669 said:


> Yes. but get to those numbers i wouldnt wish it upon him. at least where he is now (im not sure if anyone really knows without a doubt what he bid) he believes its feasible, or at least possible that he could pull a profit. i definatley wouldnt want to see him "lose his ass" anymore than id want to see the mall pay out more than they can afford and go back in bk without hiring and filling the stores.


OK, let's try to have this hit home for you brib. Excavation\construction guy has loans on his loaders. Loan officer--YOU--approved the loan for this equipment. Excavator defaults on his loan because he just screwed up a bid so bad he can't afford to pay you back, possibly not his employees, his insurance, his utilities, his mortgage that you also approved. Where does that leave you? Out of a job, because the bank lost too much money by a default on the loan. And before you try to blow anymore BS up our butt's, you will be lucky to get $.65 on the dollar for iron here in MI because the economy sucks. You will have to sell it out of state in order to get anything worthwhile for your collateral.

So for the trickle down effect to continue, let's see, the bank owns his house and right now it's a buyer's market, so the bank will lose money on the foreclosure and the banks in MI don't want real estate either right now. His employees are out of a job and on unemployment and\or welfare because MI also has the highest unemployment rate in the country. A whole bunch of other vendors are out money because he can't pay his bills, and that trickles down to their vendors and employees. It just keeps going.

And the mall is out a service provider. Tell me who wins in this scenario? Please, because you appear to be the only person who sees it? Which tells us something.

You are so short-sighted with regards to economics it's scary. You have no clue how to run a service business. Services are not commodities, despite a bunch of property management companies trying to do that.

And now we know this discussion can come to an end. You know the saying, "Never argue with an idiot, they only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."


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