# shocking prices



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

I would guess that the title would get every-ones attention. I was awarded 4 elementary schools and one school office building in my market area. These were all sites where I already had work across the street. It is a 3 year contract, seasonal, with salting included. There is very minimal hand shoveling work to do. We average 100 inches a year in 20 events. I will post my winning price bid in a couple of days just so everyone can come up with their own ideas on pricing without being influenced by mine. Next week I will post the other bids for comparison.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

By the way I am not asking anyone to post what they would bid, you can keep that to yourselves. I am hoping this will be an informative exercise.


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## SnowMatt13 (Jan 8, 2003)

Subscribing....
This should be a good thread. I know here, like most areas, pricing has been cut-throat the last 3-4 years.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

I am also subscribing........I am not sure what the point is though if we aren't posting up what we thing are our pricing for the contract.

What exactly do you want us to debate/talk about in this thread?


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Given Neige's tone, I suspect the shocking price will be in the high direction, not the low.


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

hoskm01;1298733 said:


> Given Neige's tone, I suspect the shocking price will be in the high direction, not the low.


x2

I bet that the prices from the non-winning bidders are going to be unbelievably high.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

buckwheat_la;1298718 said:


> I am also subscribing........I am not sure what the point is though if we aren't posting up what we thing are our pricing for the contract.
> 
> You can post what ever you want, I just did not want people to feel that they have to submit their pricing, I would prefer real answers not just stupid pricing, you will get an idea of those later in the week. You can also post what equipment you would use, and estimate how much time you would spend at each site.
> What exactly do you want us to debate/talk about in this tread?





hoskm01;1298733 said:


> Given Neige's tone, I suspect the shocking price will be in the high direction, not the low.


You got that right, my head is still spinning. Just to say the price I gave was in line, if not just above the median pricing in my market.


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

how about $55,000 per year plus taxes?


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Well I am curious now. The big thing for me is the liability factor, doing schools has to be nerve racking. Kind of like doing a hospital. I also think though that some of these places are more about service and less about price. The local Walmart doesn't really care how well it gets done, where as a school absolutely should have a zero tollerance for BS from its contractor.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

one loader/tractor (not too large) and a skidsteer with both a blade and a broom attachement. takes about 2-3 hours to do all of them providing they are all close together. The loader would start on all the parking lots, the skid would start on the sidewalks etc. I would probably use the broom on the walks more then the blade but the blade would push stuff back along the walks and help with clearing lots (because I think the skid would be done before the loader)


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

buckwheat_la;1298740 said:


> Well I am curious now. The big thing for me is the liability factor, doing schools has to be nerve racking. Kind of like doing a hospital. I also think though that some of these places are more about service and less about price. The local Walmart doesn't really care how well it gets done, where as a school absolutely should have a zero tollerance for BS from its contractor.


We all know what 'should' happen with the institutions that guard our children, however, around here, they're still government funded and go for the lowest price tendered. Generally, you have to have $2 million liability and you really try to stay off the property when the kids are around. A lot of the places also try to keep the salt/abrasive to a minimum because the janitorial staff complains about having to clean up what gets tracked inside. 'Contractor's discretion' can be a scary thing.


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

buckwheat_la;1298742 said:


> one loader/tractor (not too large) and a skidsteer with both a blade and a broom attachement. takes about 2-3 hours to do all of them providing they are all close together. The loader would start on all the parking lots, the skid would start on the sidewalks etc. I would probably use the broom on the walks more then the blade but the blade would push stuff back along the walks and help with clearing lots (because I think the skid would be done before the loader)


The schools we do are done with (usually) a Massey-Ferguson 6270 with a 8-13 Houle plough on the front and a Houle 8-13 blade on the back accompanied by a Case 621 front-end loader with a 4-cu.yd. bucket with an extender on it. Anything these don't fit into or onto is done by hand with snowblowers or shovels.

Sorry, can't find a picture of our Case but you can see the bucket extenders on the others.


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## Cam.at.Heritage (Feb 1, 2011)

I am also subscribing to see how the pricing turn out. 

Definitely agree that around here it always seems to go to the lowest... and if the contractor doesn't work out they just seem to try the next lowest hoping it will be better..... I would figure a school /government would know better


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Landcare - Mont;1298745 said:


> We all know what 'should' happen with the institutions that guard our children, however, around here, they're still government funded and go for the lowest price tendered. Generally, you have to have $2 million liability and you really try to stay off the property when the kids are around. A lot of the places also try to keep the salt/abrasive to a minimum because the janitorial staff complains about having to clean up what gets tracked inside. 'Contractor's discretion' can be a scary thing.


Schools are not difficult clients in my market. They are closed weekends, 2 weeks at Christmas and 1 week at March Break. As far as the janitorial staff, you have to leave them bags of ice melt and they will take care of the walkways. Almost all the walkways are accesable with a pick-up so salting is real easy. Oh and as Landcare mentioned no equipment on site during school hours.



Landcare - Mont;1298748 said:


> The schools we do are done with (usually) a Massey-Ferguson 6270 with a 8-13 Houle plough on the front and a Houle 8-13 blade on the back accompanied by a Case 621 front-end loader with a 4-cu.yd. bucket with an extender on it. Anything these don't fit into or onto is done by hand with snowblowers or shovels.
> 
> Sorry, can't find a picture of our Case but you can see the bucket extenders on the others.


I will let you know what equipment I use and how long each site takes a little later. Lastly all the sites are within 1 mile of each other.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

I'll do them all, $100 per storm...I got a truck with a plow, a snowblower and a shovel. By the way, I'm sure they would want proof of insurance, does anyone know how to get around that? $100 is good money.


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## Cam.at.Heritage (Feb 1, 2011)

JTVLandscaping;1298766 said:


> I'll do them all, $100 per storm...I got a truck with a plow, a snowblower and a shovel. By the way, I'm sure they would want proof of insurance, does anyone know how to get around that? $100 is good money.


Ya....GET INSURANCE!!!!!


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

School - Seasonal Price. 

Subscribing to see, the boards we work for are all per push / per salt / per pickled sand application (Don't ask me why they us it)


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

goel;1298780 said:


> School - Seasonal Price.
> 
> Subscribing to see, the boards we work for are all per push / per salt / per pickled sand application (Don't ask me why they us it)


Pickled? Like soaked in vinegar?


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## dodge2500 (Aug 20, 2009)

This should be interesting. I just placed a bid on 12 schools along with the transportation garage and office. Sizes ranged from 1 acre to 8 acres. I was told that all contractors were too high and that they were going to go back to trying to do it themselves..


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## Moonlighter (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm subscribed you got me hooked on this one lol.


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## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

dodge2500;1298791 said:


> This should be interesting. I just placed a bid on 12 schools along with the transportation garage and office. Sizes ranged from 1 acre to 8 acres. I was told that all contractors were too high and that they were going to go back to trying to do it themselves..


F as in FAIL for the district.


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## chevyman83 (Nov 25, 2010)

All the schools around here take care of it themselves.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

4 elementary schools within 1 mile of each other?!? How aboot privatizing and getting into the bussing business? There must be a big need up there. pumpkin:

Geez, I know times have changed, but we never had tennis courts and real baseball diamonds at our elementary schools when I was growing up.

School pricing around these parts are won with *very low numbers*. The range of pricing submitted also has a huge variance.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

TCLA;1298808 said:


> 4 elementary schools within 1 mile of each other?!? How aboot privatizing and getting into the bussing business? There must be a big need up there. pumpkin:
> 
> Geez, I know times have changed, but we never had tennis courts and real baseball diamonds at our elementary schools when I was growing up.
> 
> School pricing around these parts are won with *very low numbers*. The range of pricing submitted also has a huge variance.


Just so you know, the tennis courts, baseball fields, and soccor fields are all suppied by the muni. They take care of all the maintenance also, the schools own the land.


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

hoskm01;1298781 said:


> Pickled? Like soaked in vinegar?


Pickled Sand = 1 part salt, 10 parts sand (standard mixture).

It is useless especially in a school setting, we mix our own and usually it is 40 to 50% salt just for the piece of mind.


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

Neige;1298762 said:


> Schools are not difficult clients in my market. They are closed weekends, 2 weeks at Christmas and 1 week at March Break. As far as the janitorial staff, you have to leave them bags of ice melt and they will take care of the walkways. Almost all the walkways are accesable with a pick-up so salting is real easy. Oh and as Landcare mentioned no equipment on site during school hours.
> 
> Neige - do you not have after school activities/daycare's / other uses of the facilities to outside groups that you also have to work around.
> 
> ie ice rinks in the playgrounds etc... We have to make sure weekends and holidays everything is covered for the liability of the extra curricular activities. The schools might be closed, but it always seems like something is going on from 6 am to 9 pm thru the week and 8 am to dark on weekends.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

goel;1298836 said:


> Neige;1298762 said:
> 
> 
> > Schools are not difficult clients in my market. They are closed weekends, 2 weeks at Christmas and 1 week at March Break. As far as the janitorial staff, you have to leave them bags of ice melt and they will take care of the walkways. Almost all the walkways are accesable with a pick-up so salting is real easy. Oh and as Landcare mentioned no equipment on site during school hours.
> ...


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## vegaman04 (Dec 12, 2007)

Sub'ed for pricing info


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## ABecker615 (Feb 8, 2010)

Subscribed. This could get interesting.


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## EIB (Oct 30, 2002)

I'm listening.


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## Rich Graz (Jul 9, 2011)

subscribed


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## getsum (Jan 7, 2011)

the town handles all the schools fire stations etc etc around here. im definitely subscribed!


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Ok here is the High School in my market, it is open 7 days a week, with an indoor pool, open to the public. Also the arena on the left uses lots of parking on the weekend. Its a seasonal price, salting included, very little hand work but there are 4 sets of stairs with 10 steps each 10 feet wide. The guy who got it priced it at $18,500 / year next was me at $28,900, then next price was $48,200, then $52,500 and last was at $75,000. This is for a 3 year term. More to come on my schools.


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## ford6.9 (Aug 17, 2006)

Maybe they gave what it would cost for 3 years and not each year?


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## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

Neige;1298898 said:


> The guy who got it priced it at $18,500 / year next was me at $28,900, then next price was $48,200, then $52,500 and last was at $75,000. This is for a 3 year term. More to come on my schools.


Dang! The guy who won left $10k on the table :crying:


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## viper881 (Jan 14, 2009)

Thats a big difference 10000 dollars!


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

subscribed


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Camden;1298905 said:


> Dang! The guy who won left $10k on the table :crying:


Never mine that. He's going to wish he never bid on it.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

Camden;1298905 said:


> Dang! The guy who won left $10k on the table :crying:


I bet Paul is crying at the amount he left on the table with the elementry schools. I bet it adds up to $75k per year between the 5 sites he won, compared to the next higher bidder.

I'm looking foward to seeing the prices though. :salute:

An Paul, congrats on winning the schools. I know if you put your bid in, and won, then it's a fair price that you're happy with. :waving:


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

grandview;1298928 said:



> Never mine that. He's going to wish he never bid on it.


No this guy has been bidding these kind of prices for years, Once the 3 years are up he will probably bid it at a lower price for the next 3 years. He has our whole industrial park, and has been doing them for the last 12 years.



IMAGE;1298937 said:


> I bet Paul is crying at the amount he left on the table with the elementry schools. I bet it adds up to $75k per year between the 5 sites he won, compared to the next higher bidder.
> 
> I'm looking foward to seeing the prices though. :salute:
> 
> An Paul, congrats on winning the schools. I know if you put your bid in, and won, then it's a fair price that you're happy with. :waving:


Thats spot on, I was trilled to get them back. I wont need any extra equipment, the guys working around these schools will be able to add them to thier routes without any concerns of it affecting the work they are already doing.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

So school #1 will be done with an Ag tractor that already has all the homes and apartments there. It will take him 30 mins and there is no hand work to do.

School # 2 will be done with a loader, it will be the same loader that works across the street doing the shopping center. It will take him 45 mins, and the street if front of the school gets salted by the muni. There is 10 mins of hand work to do at this site, that will be taken care of by our shovel crew.

School #3 + the office building. They will be done by Ag tractor with a inverted blower. It will take 1 hr to complete. The resi driver in that area will take care of it. There is 15 mins of hand work for the shovel crew.

School #4 this one is not in an area where I service homes. The school will take 20 mins + 5 mins to get there and 5 mins more to get back to their regular route. Ag tractor with inverted blower. Hand crew 20 mins.

Well there you have it, I do all that for 32 grand a year for 3 years. More to come!!!!


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

Nice workpayup


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## jgoetter1 (Feb 23, 2007)

Good thread - I'm glad you're as efficient as you are. I'm always amazed at the difference between the high and low bidders.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Well as promised, here are the other prices. There were 4 other compaines who bid on this contract. Remember I came in at 32 grand, company 1 came more than double my price at 77,810.00, company 2 came in at 80,126.00, company 3 came in at 142,913.00, and the last guy came in at a whopping 156,050.00 per year for a total of 468,150.00 for a 3 year contract. There you have it clearly I am an extreme lowballer, based on this contract. I am still very happy to have it, 30 grand more a year and I would have been estatic. Hope everyone enjoyed this thread,.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

No hand work at any of our schools but they are 24/7 right through the year. The only day you get off is Christmas. These Boards are so broke they rent them out for everything and anything.

As for insurance, never had a claim since 1994. Kids fall but they usually don't break anything. Teacher's fall because they like to wear high heels.

Having them close Paul is a big plus. I would have thought you got more snow then that in your area.

Congrats


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Congrats Paul!!!

We love our schools. We currently service 42 school sites in a 8 km radius. They are all closed on weekends, Christmas, March Break, and Snow Days, We dont do any walkways, and are not expected to show up during the day, Snow piles are not to exceed 3 feet in height...which means lots of removal and push backs. A bonus is 90 percent of my commercial and industrial sites are all closeby so they all get integrated. A super bonus is that the money is good too and direct deposited monthly.


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## Grassman09 (Mar 18, 2009)

sacré bleu


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

JohnnyRoyale;1299236 said:


> They are all closed on weekends, Christmas, March Break, and Snow Days, We dont do any walkways, and are not expected to show up during the day, Snow piles are not to exceed 3 feet in height...which means lots of removal and push backs. :


x2 on that !!!

we were called "extreme lowballers" last year, for a group of 10 properties. Well after tallying everything at the end of the year, we came out at a great hourly rate. Its called efficiency. Get in, get out, get payup


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

I've been called the same.....All I know is we know our costs, and provide excellent service. We run a overhead heavy company here so my gross margins don't have a direct correlation to the bottom line, well they do, but it's convoluted, my gross margins on the stuff I've been accused of lowballing is in the 73-78% range after taking out direct costs. I'll lowball all day long for margins like that. People submit bids like this to municipalities all the time..... locally, it's been suggested to me that on more than one local oppurtunity there was an unofficial meeting of those who picked up bid packets setting a "minimum" for the bids......We would never attend something which is such a blatant violation of fair bidding laws. Funny though at the bid opening, we came in about 5% higher than the low bidder but 3 other companies came in at more than triple our pricing.

How's that work??


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

forestfireguy;1299503 said:


> I've been called the same.....All I know is we know our costs, and provide excellent service. We run a overhead heavy company here so my gross margins don't have a direct correlation to the bottom line, well they do, but it's convoluted, my gross margins on the stuff I've been accused of lowballing is in the 73-78% range after taking out direct costs. I'll lowball all day long for margins like that. People submit bids like this to municipalities all the time..... locally, it's been suggested to me that on more than one local oppurtunity there was an unofficial meeting of those who picked up bid packets setting a "minimum" for the bids......We would never attend something which is such a blatant violation of fair bidding laws. Funny though at the bid opening, we came in about 5% higher than the low bidder but 3 other companies came in at more than triple our pricing.
> 
> How's that work??


I have seen similar instances, where 2 companies who are friends. If there was no one who bid between them the guy with the lower price would drop out forfeiting his 10% bid guarantee. His friend was double the price with 3 year deal and got it. Not a bad scam now is it.


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## R.G.PEEL (Oct 27, 2010)

I've never understood 'lowballer' accusations. We live in a fair market and if someone wants to do the work at a really low price then they either have the efficiency to make that price profitable (like you having the properties surrounding), or they will go out of business and no longer be an issue. There are guys in Toronto offering skids with operators for construction work at $45/hr. which is barely higher than what my costs are! It doesn't bother me, because the cheap customers that will be a pain in the azz are drawn to these companies and they suit each other, leaving the good part of the market less tainted.

What interests me though, is how the low bidder reacts when they see the money "left on the table". Neige, knowing that you have $45k between you and the next competitor, and assuming that everything goes as planned and these are just some gravy on top for the crews you already have in the area, will you bid higher next time? Or keep pricing based on what you require to be profitable and not pay attention to what the 'going rates' are? 

I run into this with medium-large concrete jobs quite often. Several times I have found out that my prices are $40k or $50k cheaper than other bidders on the job, but my profits turn out exactly as I'd planned. I often wonder whether to increase my pricing matrix by half of that difference, or leave them the same?


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## Precedence (Oct 3, 2008)

So if you have 20 events and with the site times you provided and assuming 2 people on the shovel crew it will take about 62 man hours of labour/year (3.1 hours/event) to do these sites so your making about $516/manhour? Is that correct? Do those 20 events count salting only events?


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

tymusic interesting post.


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## csi.northcoast (Aug 7, 2010)

just for my curiosity , what kind of snowfall do you get up there is a season, event + inches....interesting post


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## StuveCorp (Dec 20, 2005)

That is wild but what I got out of this is how these properties are in your existing routes and really don't take that much time(or maybe effort?) to service them properly. Thanks for sharing this.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Neige;1299197 said:


> Well as promised, here are the other prices. There were 4 other compaines who bid on this contract. Remember I came in at 32 grand, company 1 came more than double my price at 77,810.00, company 2 came in at 80,126.00, company 3 came in at 142,913.00, and the last guy came in at a whopping 156,050.00 per year for a total of 468,150.00 for a 3 year contract. There you have it clearly I am an extreme lowballer, based on this contract. I am still very happy to have it, 30 grand more a year and I would have been estatic. Hope everyone enjoyed this thread,.


So your doing all the schools for $32k total per season? and is that canadian currency ? I wouldn't have bid them anything under 100k+ especially since you said you get 100" a year avg? damn!


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Paul, I've been following this thread for awhile and i'm not trying to stir the pot or anything but why were the other bids so high for the amount of work you state they need? Is there something in the bid specs you might have missed and thats the reason all the others are so high? Even if the other companies arn't as efficient as your operation, thats still alot of $ between bids... the previous guy (who's done this before) was going to do this at 156K? and your at 32K?......something just doesn't seem like everyones bidding in a apples to apples scenerio......again not trying to stir the pot, just being curious.......


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

Based on what was described I guessed 4 hours of plowing, 20 events to plow, bit of salt....50K $ would be plenty to do it as my thought.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Mick76;1300385 said:


> Paul, I've been following this thread for awhile and i'm not trying to stir the pot or anything but why were the other bids so high for the amount of work you state they need? Is there something in the bid specs you might have missed and thats the reason all the others are so high? Even if the other companies arn't as efficient as your operation, thats still alot of $ between bids... the previous guy (who's done this before) was going to do this at 156K? and your at 32K?......something just doesn't seem like everyones bidding in a apples to apples scenerio......again not trying to stir the pot, just being curious.......


I think its a combination of that and underestimation on the hours taken.. even with all said, thats very few hours for those sites especially for 100" of snow.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Ramairfreak98ss;1300376 said:


> So your doing all the schools for $32k total per season? and is that canadian currency ? I wouldn't have bid them anything under 100k+ especially since you said you get 100" a year avg? damn!


I guess if you are figuring for 105 plowings, 125 saltings, and 125 walk clearings $100k is probably justified.

.............my bid would have been $32,608.00


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Longae29;1300431 said:


> I guess if you are figuring for 105 plowings, 125 saltings, and 125 walk clearings $100k is probably justified.
> 
> .............my bid would have been $32,608.00


Well you can bid whatever you want to bid for the job. We've had smaller places and 40-60" of snow in NJ and have billed well more than that. Is 32k impossible, no, but considering the next closest price was what $70,000+, what got him to 32k for his bid anyway?

If i know we're profitable at 20k for a job, but its a 100k job, im not bidding 20k just to get it. Ill bid 80k+ if i know all the bids will come in around there. I've been called all kinds of names with clients saying we're raping them in snow prices, and the next guy down the road says he's unhappy and our prices were so low, he should have known and just kept with his old company. We made good money on the one the client felt was a low ball price and "risky", and hardly made anything on the one the client was complaining we charged way too much.

The spread of 32k and 150k bids for that job, the 32k bid has just as much legitimacy as the 150k bid, but they got it b/c it was cheapest.

A local school district in NJ went for $92k last year, i know, we bid 112k for it. Its 5 schools and only one was bigger than what the original poster had in those photos, 175k sq ft lot.

92k was lowest, another was in between our bid and lowest bid and 4 came in over 120k, thats all i remember. Some of the companies who bid it wen't close by at all. The one who won the contract was pretty far south, if they were local, maybe they can handle it for 92k and still make money. I could have "probably" made money at 92k but i won't price anything that close and turn a profitable job into a winter long risk.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

The question I pose is this, for all those people who complain about low ballers, could it be that you just aren't as good as your competition doing snow removal?


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## R.G.PEEL (Oct 27, 2010)

With the equipment he has abd states is already in the area, it isn't much of a risk for HIM to do it this way. Someone else with nothing else nearby would lose their shirt. I would have bid significantly higher, I was thinking at the beginning of this thread between 50-70 going only off sat photos. I think its low for what it is but let's say he profits 10k all together, that's still 10k more than not doing it. He certainly doesn't strike me as a stupid guy. He clearly has a plan.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Neige;1299197 said:


> Well as promised, here are the other prices. There were 4 other compaines who bid on this contract. Remember I came in at 32 grand, company 1 came more than double my price at 77,810.00, company 2 came in at 80,126.00, company 3 came in at 142,913.00, and the last guy came in at a whopping 156,050.00 per year for a total of 468,150.00 for a 3 year contract. There you have it clearly I am an extreme lowballer, based on this contract. I am still very happy to have it, 30 grand more a year and I would have been estatic. Hope everyone enjoyed this thread,.


congrats on winning the bid, but just a question . You dont at all seem cencerned with the amount of money "left on the table" While i try to keep a price as low as possible for a client, wouldnt it seem just logical that you could have made a decent amount more. Im sure you know your numbers well, and your production well, but i would think a win at say 50k would have been alot better for you.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

R.G.PEEL;1300459 said:


> With the equipment he has abd states is already in the area, it isn't much of a risk for HIM to do it this way. Someone else with nothing else nearby would lose their shirt. I would have bid significantly higher, I was thinking at the beginning of this thread between 50-70 going only off sat photos. I think its low for what it is but let's say he profits 10k all together, *that's still 10k more than not doing it.* He certainly doesn't strike me as a stupid guy. He clearly has a plan.


I total Agree with your entire statement except the bolded area..... " thats 10 k more" i dont know what he will plan on making thats really his business. but the attitude "thats 10 k more" is great right up to the point where all your equiptment is tied up doing jobs that are "just another XX" Im sure being as large as he is he has lots of equipment ready to do the job on this one, but for smaller companies with fewer peices, and even some larger ones, id rather keep my stuff on high profit sites.


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## StuveCorp (Dec 20, 2005)

Ramairfreak98ss;1300376 said:


> So your doing all the schools for $32k total per season? and is that canadian currency ? I wouldn't have bid them anything under 100k+ especially since you said you get 100" a year avg? damn!


By my math he has 3 hours of tractor or loader time and 45 minutes of hand labor? For _all_ the sites... I didn't total out the salting time so that needs to be added in. I can't see how guys want 100 large to service these sites? It does help these can be added on to existing routes but Paul is making good money at his price, why get greedy?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

There seems to be people here who can't add.

He's talking less than 3 acres of plowing here...and happens to be across the street from these already.

Good job Paul.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

People may think schools require more service, but the last few years schools get about 30% less service than most commercial sites


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Great thread Paul.


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## getsum (Jan 7, 2011)

some peope want to make a million today and others want to make it in a lifetime. its all about personal comfort, overhead etc etc. Everyone runs there business different and with what he has, I think he is doing something right Thumbs Up great thread btw


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## R.G.PEEL (Oct 27, 2010)

elite1msmith;1300463 said:


> I total Agree with your entire statement except the bolded area..... " thats 10 k more" i dont know what he will plan on making thats really his business. but the attitude "thats 10 k more" is great right up to the point where all your equiptment is tied up doing jobs that are "just another XX" Im sure being as large as he is he has lots of equipment ready to do the job on this one, but for smaller companies with fewer peices, and even some larger ones, id rather keep my stuff on high profit sites.


I liken this to when I'm grading a parking lot and someone asks me to lift a skid off a truck for $20 I'm still makin my full money just now I have an extra 20$ for very little effort. This is the same, on a larger scale. I would never price it this way as the principle work for all the crews, but certainly in addition to other work. Hotels, airlines, and cruises operate on this business model as well.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

R.G.PEEL;1299871 said:


> I've never understood 'lowballer' accusations. We live in a fair market and if someone wants to do the work at a really low price then they either have the efficiency to make that price profitable (like you having the properties surrounding), or they will go out of business and no longer be an issue. There are guys in Toronto offering skids with operators for construction work at $45/hr. which is barely higher than what my costs are! It doesn't bother me, because the cheap customers that will be a pain in the azz are drawn to these companies and they suit each other, leaving the good part of the market less tainted.
> 
> What interests me though, is how the low bidder reacts when they see the money "left on the table". Neige, knowing that you have $45k between you and the next competitor, and assuming that everything goes as planned and these are just some gravy on top for the crews you already have in the area, will you bid higher next time? Or keep pricing based on what you require to be profitable and not pay attention to what the 'going rates' are?
> 
> ...





Precedence;1299966 said:


> So if you have 20 events and with the site times you provided and assuming 2 people on the shovel crew it will take about 62 man hours of labour/year (3.1 hours/event) to do these sites so your making about $516/manhour? Is that correct? Do those 20 events count salting only events?


We are looking at 3 hrs of equipment time per event + 1 hr hand work for 1 man.
We get 20 events on average, but lets say we have to go back a second time 50% of the time so 30 plows so 90 hrs equipment and 30 man hrs for hand work. There is salting to be done so add 30 applications that will take 1 hr and 1 ton per application for all of them. ( trust me it will be more like 1/2 of a ton but lets say 30 tons for the season. Salt costs me $85/ton so $2550 salt + 90 hrs equipment + 30 man hrs shovel crew + 30 hrs salt truck. I will let you do the math.



sbg4024;1299986 said:


> just for my curiosity , what kind of snowfall do you get up there is a season, event + inches....interesting post


We average 100 inches over 20 events.



Ramairfreak98ss;1300376 said:


> So your doing all the schools for $32k total per season? and is that canadian currency ? I wouldn't have bid them anything under 100k+ especially since you said you get 100" a year avg? damn!


Ramair I guess you have not been following the Canadian currency for a while. It has been above the US greenback for several years. Just 2 weeks ago a Canada-in buck would have cost you $1.10 US.
I will debate your 100 grand a little further on



Mick76;1300385 said:


> Paul, I've been following this thread for awhile and i'm not trying to stir the pot or anything but why were the other bids so high for the amount of work you state they need? Is there something in the bid specs you might have missed and thats the reason all the others are so high? Even if the other companies arn't as efficient as your operation, thats still alot of $ between bids... the previous guy (who's done this before) was going to do this at 156K? and your at 32K?......something just doesn't seem like everyones bidding in a apples to apples scenerio......again not trying to stir the pot, just being curious.......


Thanks Mick you bring up a good point. I really believe this was a fishing exhibition. I missed nothing in the bid packets, and the prices were just out in space. I bid them like I was bidding against my competitors, and none of them bid the small schools. As you can see I bid the high school and I was 10 grand more than a major competitor in my market. The other guys I guess we just hoping no one was going to bid them, I just don't know.



Ramairfreak98ss;1300426 said:


> I think its a combination of that and underestimation on the hours taken.. even with all said, thats very few hours for those sites especially for 100" of snow.


Ramair I am confused, are you saying I was estimating 2hrs and 45 mins for the season?
or are you saying 2hrs and 45 mins is not enough time for a 100 inch snowfall?



TCLA;1300547 said:


> There seems to be people here who can't add.
> 
> He's talking less than 3 acres of plowing here...and happens to be across the street from these already.
> 
> Good job Paul.


Sorry everyone for taking this long to reply, I was in Boston for the SIMA Snow Stratagies Forum. Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I appreciate everyone who commented. I want to ask everyone 3 questions. The first is what would your reaction have been if I got this contract at 32 grand the next price was at 32.5, and the others as stated before.

Question 2 would be I got it at 32, the next at 32.5 another at 34, 38, and 42 grand. Question number 3 I bid 32, but lost because some else bid 30.5, 31, 38, and 42 grand. Would this have influenced your comments. I know I would have been very disappointed, and wished I had come in at 30. Ramair to get back to you, you mentioned 100 grand for your market in NJ. I think its safe to say all these sites could be done by skid steer and driven from site to site in 6 hrs. with the operator shoveling the sites himself. Even if you salt the -#@!?%$# out of these lots so say 1 ton per site 40 times for the season so 160 tons @$150/ton that's 24 grand. Ok maybe your operator refuses to shovel so he is back to 5 hrs and you have a crew of 2 that take 1 hr x 30 times so 60 man hrs to shovel it for the season. To keep it easy lets say $50.00 each so 6 grand for the shoveler, and remember I have half that time down for my guy. That leaves you 70 grand for the season for your SS for 150 hrs of work. $466/hr :salute: you the man.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Different areas different prices
When I bid I also add in maintenance of machines, washing trucks and salters repairs,fuel wear and tear, insurance cost. There is a lot more than labor and materials involved here


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

ponyboy;1300805 said:


> Different areas different prices
> When I bid I also add in maintenance of machines, washing trucks and salters repairs,fuel wear and tear, insurance cost. There is a lot more than labor and materials involved here


I totally agree, market prices differ all over the place. You are absolutely correct about knowing all your costs before you make up a price per hour, acre, or push. You need to consider office expenses, building costs (whether you rent or own) accounting .........
With all of that considered, $466/hr (70grand) for a skid steer is not realistic pricing for most markets. If you can get more power to you.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Congrats on getting the work Paul, you knew when you posted it you would be analyzed. The guy wanting 100k subcontracts through an NSF most of the time so you know full well he's not getting those kind of prices.


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## totalplowing (Aug 26, 2011)

*So...*

How much did you charge? I would like to know per property, that way I can try to learn how to properly estimate on lots. This will be my first year and we will probably be starting with a couple of pick up trucks and a bobcat. Any formula or guidelines to go by would be awesome!


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## totalplowing (Aug 26, 2011)

*He is Right*



elite1msmith;1300460 said:


> congrats on winning the bid, but just a question . You dont at all seem cencerned with the amount of money "left on the table" While i try to keep a price as low as possible for a client, wouldnt it seem just logical that you could have made a decent amount more. Im sure you know your numbers well, and your production well, but i would think a win at say 50k would have been alot better for you.


I second that motion. You are a good estimator if you get the bid, however, you are an excellent estimator if you can get the job along with the max dollar amount. This way you do not drive your local market down to the point where not even you are getting the jobs with the low ball prices you are giving currently.:crying:


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## totalplowing (Aug 26, 2011)

He is right across the street, but he should have thought he could go higher since it was most likely not everyone else was that close.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

Neige has so many contracts EVERYTHING is across the street.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

totalplowing;1301825 said:


> I second that motion. You are a good estimator if you get the bid, however, you are a PSYCHIC if you can get the job along with the max dollar amount.


There, much better now.


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

.....you put in your bid at a comfortable price to make money! Why would you question how much has been left on the table? Doing what Paul did is the right thing IMO, he won't get challenged for a long time at this price. Why expose yourself to the competition if you can make good money at a low price?


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

What if fait should have it you happen to loose the places across the street and around these area's? Now what? Would You would loose your shirt?


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

MIDTOWNPC;1302128 said:


> Neige has so many contracts EVERYTHING is across the street.


LOL you made me spill my coffee with that one.



Triple L;1302266 said:


> What if fait should have it you happen to loose the places across the street and around these area's? Now what? Would You would loose your shirt?


Chad, only once have I priced something at a loss. I will share that story with you, over a beer some time. When I bid, I do so to get the max, without losing it. None of the local guys had bid this one, and I finally found out why. The school board went a different route for their call to tenders. Instead of using the local paper like they have for the past 30 years they went with a site that handles all municipal and provincial bids. So the big boys got to bid them. The only reason I got the forms is that I was at the school board paying my schools taxes and asked when they were asking for new bids. Lucky for the board I did, or the parents at these schools would be paying even more in school fees.


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

*new rules*

The school board went a different route for their call to tenders. Instead of using the local paper like they have for the past 30 years they went with a site that handles all municipal and provincial bids.

New rules from the provincial government trying to combat collusion, etc. - everything government goes through SEAO. It is kind of neat, though. You can just search 'déneigement' or what ever you're looking for and everything in the province pops up. Also, you can view the documents on-line, order them and pay for them on-line, download them and away you go without even leaving the office. Then, they send you all the addenda by e-mail or fax; you don't even have to keep checking.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Neige;1302286 said:


> LOL you made me spill my coffee with that one.
> 
> Chad, only once have I priced something at a loss. I will share that story with you, over a beer some time. When I bid, I do so to get the max, without losing it. None of the local guys had bid this one, and I finally found out why. The school board went a different route for their call to tenders. Instead of using the local paper like they have for the past 30 years they went with a site that handles all municipal and provincial bids. So the big boys got to bid them. The only reason I got the forms is that I was at the school board paying my schools taxes and asked when they were asking for new bids. *Lucky for the board I did, or the parents at these schools would be paying even more in school fees*.


I think that's a point that many here would have never picked-up on. If I resided in this same district, I'd certainly offer you my thanks for being efficient & honest. Seeing I don't, I'll merely say congratulations on the winning bid............. Thumbs Up


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## ANA Proscapes (Jul 14, 2011)

Did some of you miss the part where he said that these schools went for $18K a few years ago? I don't understand how some of you can question him. It seems like he has everything planed out very will and knows his costs. Congrats on the win.


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## dfd9 (Aug 18, 2010)

buckwheat_la;1300443 said:


> The question I pose is this, for all those people who complain about low ballers, could it be that you just aren't as good as your competition doing snow removal?


Because capitalism is only bad when it applies to snowplowing.



StuveCorp;1300503 said:


> By my math he has 3 hours of tractor or loader time and 45 minutes of hand labor? For _all_ the sites... I didn't total out the salting time so that needs to be added in. I can't see how guys want 100 large to service these sites? It does help these can be added on to existing routes but Paul is making good money at his price, why get greedy?


Why let facts get in the way of emotion?



JohnnyRoyale;1302146 said:


> There, much better now.


Nicely done.


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## forbidden (Dec 22, 2010)

And lets hope that your margins get extended with fewer snow events this year. Not that I would take that to the bank especially after seeing fresh snow here two days ago.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

forbidden;1303645 said:


> And lets hope that your margins get extended with fewer snow events this year. Not that I would take that to the bank especially after seeing fresh snow here two days ago.


I want it to snow, even with seasonal pricing, no snow means less clients next year. I am very happy with 100 inches of snow a year. Cut back on the events and have larger accumulations, now were talking. I don't know whats happening in Alberta but it seems the weather Gods want you to have 8 months of snow each year, you can have it.


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## m_falafel (Jul 27, 2010)

Landcare - Mont;1302294 said:


> The school board went a different route for their call to tenders. Instead of using the local paper like they have for the past 30 years they went with a site that handles all municipal and provincial bids.
> 
> New rules from the provincial government trying to combat collusion, etc. - everything government goes through SEAO. It is kind of neat, though. * You can just search 'déneigement' or what ever you're looking for and everything in the province pops up*. Also, you can view the documents on-line, order them and pay for them on-line, download them and away you go without even leaving the office. Then, they send you all the addenda by e-mail or fax; you don't even have to keep checking.


What's the web site?

Edit: Nevermind lol. This will be useful.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

Neige;1303663 said:


> I want it to snow, even with seasonal pricing, no snow means less clients next year. I am very happy with 100 inches of snow a year. Cut back on the events and have larger accumulations, now were talking. I don't know whats happening in Alberta but it seems the weather Gods want you to have 8 months of snow each year, you can have it.


Your in a good place when people think you are a lowballer and you are happy with the money you are making.


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## R.G.PEEL (Oct 27, 2010)

Well put cet


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## 496 BB (Feb 11, 2010)

I admire Neige for his business skills. Sure seems to be alot of haters out here in internet tuff guy world though. Im sure hes not lowballing or he would be like most driving some beat up POS truck charging just enough to get his crack rock for the weekend. Im pretty sure years of experience have led to efficiency beyond what any little company can acquire. This also leads to more work by bidding lower. This is what most business owners dont understand. Less is more sometimes meaning if you have to charge a little less to get more properties than you are essentially making more in the long run. Especially in this economy you have to think that way. Everyone has their numbers they need to make. Im sure being close to all these places was a major price point also. Im sure most here would drop a price to do something when its just across the street from where you already are. You can delete the "trip" charge. 

And unless he is a damn physic I dont know how the hell he would know there would be money on the table. It sucks not knowing but the only thing you can do is price it as best as you can and hope you get it. You win some you loose some. Thats the way it is. Its not like you can go back and say since you were so low you need to raise your price. Thats ******** to even say that. Im starting to wonder how many people have actually graduated on this place.

If your making money Neige which Im sure you are then more power to ya. Its funny how people b!tch about big companies charging too much and now charging too little. People just wanna b!tch. Anyhow I for one understand the efficiency aspect of business and am thankful you shared your thoughts. Everyone can afford to learn more so hands off the keyboard kiddies and just read.


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## NickT (Feb 1, 2011)

Now that was intelligent,love the internet tough guy cracks, there's always someone trying to be a big shot from there moms basement!!!


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## StuveCorp (Dec 20, 2005)

You have to look at the three year term. They always say one year is heavy, one average and one below average so it should balance there. 

I would jump for something like this, it would be fun to just go and do one client for the next three years and pocket 100 large. I would even wear the T-shirt: 'I lowball like Paul'. Thumbs Up


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## Landcare - Mont (Feb 28, 2011)

m_falafel;1303834 said:


> What's the web site?
> 
> Edit: Nevermind lol. This will be useful.


https://www.seao.ca/index_toutes.aspx


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

JohnnyRoyale;1302146 said:


> There, much better now.


i like your modifcation, and its certainly harder with snow than lawn care bids, but there is no reason why you cant have a reasonable idea. For the most part, i know who my property managers use for bidding, sometimes its an open bid.... in fact almost all government stuff is open bid. Even if its a job that you are not interested in, thrown in a bid, go to the opening, and start writing down who bid what. each time you do that, you get a little bit closer to figuring out the others math.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

R.G.PEEL;1300597 said:


> I liken this to when I'm grading a parking lot and someone asks me to lift a skid off a truck for $20 I'm still makin my full money just now I have an extra 20$ for very little effort. This is the same, on a larger scale. I would never price it this way as the principle work for all the crews, but certainly in addition to other work. Hotels, airlines, and cruises operate on this business model as well.


what i was tring to point out - the "well its an extraXX more " yes your bottom line goes up that much

But to use yoru pallet example, If osmeone asks you to move a pallet, and you have the time...sure take the extra $20.00

If you have someone paying you $5000 to move 100 pallets, and then someone offers you an extra $20.00 to move one or two more....that works until the 3rd guys comes into view and he wants 100 more pallets moved and is willign to pay $10000... and you cant do it because your equiptment is tied up moving them for 20 bucks.


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## R.G.PEEL (Oct 27, 2010)

I see your point, and that's a whole different debate on the philosophy of business.. And that's a point I've discussed many times with ppm from this site. I don't believe there is a right or a wrong because the argument is that when the new job comes up and your equip is in use earning profit, you have a good problem. Rent or buy more equip and keep earning. The counter arguments arr cyclical and continue on and on. Its really a philosopy question where everyone has their own stance. Def a good point you raise


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

A wise man once said "everyone has a different motivation for their pricing, some reasons are beyond anyone elses comprehension... So dont bother trying to figure it out, it just wont make any sense to you...just move on".


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

elite1msmith;1304425 said:


> i like your modifcation, and its certainly harder with snow than lawn care bids, but there is no reason why you cant have a reasonable idea. For the most part, i know who my property managers use for bidding, sometimes its an open bid.... in fact almost all government stuff is open bid. Even if its a job that you are not interested in, thrown in a bid, go to the opening, and start writing down who bid what. each time you do that, you get a little bit closer to figuring out the others math.


:salute: Now there is a great piece of advice, even if you don't submit a price ( because lots of times you have to put up 10% as a guarantee) go to the openings. You can learn so much from others, more importantly sometimes there are niches that not many people think of bidding, these are the ones that generally go for lots more. Example I am bidding a train station parking lot, there are going to be very few people in on this one, I have been following it now for 6 years. I know what they are used to bidding which is way higher than what I ever bid, so I will try this one at 80% of their pricing. I may just get lucky and pick up a very, very profitable client. Will fill you in next Friday when its due.


JohnnyRoyale;1304557 said:


> A wise man once said "everyone has a different motivation for their pricing, some reasons are beyond anyone elses comprehension... So dont bother trying to figure it out, it just wont make any sense to you...just move on".


Well said John, not everything makes sense to me either. I am sure it makes perfect sense to the other guy though.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

I'd go 79 percent of their pricing unless that came to a dead even number then I would take $51 dollars off that
but I'm still new to this I love hard to do places and ones with alot of shift changes where you might as well camp there
Those are the ones that if you do it good one year will sign multi year deals


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

MIDTOWNPC;1305238 said:


> I'd go 79 percent of their pricing unless that came to a dead even number then I would take $51 dollars off that
> but I'm still new to this I love hard to do places and ones with alot of shift changes where you might as well camp there
> Those are the ones that if you do it good one year will sign multi year deals


LOL you reminded me of my younger days when I used to never have round, even numbers. Only once in our life time has the difference been under $100.00 Must admit it was really sweet, it was on a $36 grand a year for 5 years contract. Ah how I miss those days.


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## MIDTOWNPC (Feb 17, 2007)

I had a computer quote one time for about 50k worth of stuff
I knew a competitor was going to be aggressive so I bragged to a guy he played golf with
That I thought I would get it with a nice 30percent markup
The guy found out as I knew his friend would tell him and put his price around 27 percent markup and I walked away with it making 
A clean 25 percent. it worked like a charm. I laughed all the way to the bank


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

JohnnyRoyale;1304557 said:


> A wise man once said "everyone has a different motivation for their pricing, some reasons are beyond anyone elses comprehension... So dont bother trying to figure it out, it just wont make any sense to you...just move on".


Is that why use seniors stay alone


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## totalplowing (Aug 26, 2011)

Any body have any ideas of what I should charge for this job? It is:

-15 min from my yard
-50,000sf of pavement
-1,500sf of sidewalk
-A busy restaurant










Thanks!

Also, how the heck do I insert a pic from my desktop?


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## Premier (Nov 20, 2007)

totalplowing;1307541 said:


> Any body have any ideas of what I should charge for this job? It is:
> 
> -15 min from my yard
> -50,000sf of pavement
> ...


I can tell you what I would charge but it wont do you any good as your cost are different than mine, figure out your costs, then you will be able to figure out your hourly rate then BOOM you know what you should charge based on your hourly rate. if you need more info on production times join SIMA


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## Premier (Nov 20, 2007)

Neige, this was a great thread.


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## OrganicsL&L (Jan 30, 2009)

Neige;1305223 said:


> :salute: Now there is a great piece of advice, even if you don't submit a price ( because lots of times you have to put up 10% as a guarantee) go to the openings. You can learn so much from others, more importantly sometimes there are niches that not many people think of bidding, these are the ones that generally go for lots more. Example I am bidding a train station parking lot, there are going to be very few people in on this one, I have been following it now for 6 years. I know what they are used to bidding which is way higher than what I ever bid, so I will try this one at 80% of their pricing. I may just get lucky and pick up a very, very profitable client. Will fill you in next Friday when its due.
> 
> Well said John, not everything makes sense to me either. I am sure it makes perfect sense to the other guy though.


How'd the train station go Neige?


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

OrganicsL&L;1312215 said:


> How'd the train station go Neige?


I actually managed to get one, I was really surprised.
I have attached the St-Bruno Station, its brand new they just finished last week with the paving. So I cannot give you a google view of it. Like last time I will give you a chance on pricing. Its a seasonal deal, with salting included. Every morning at 6am you have to call in and leave a message that you did a visual inspection, and explain what you did if anything. This must be preformed 7 days a week even though its only open during the week. The contract runs from November 1st till April 15th.
The St-Hubert one is very old with no curbs anywhere, this one I did attach a google map to get a better feel of it. Later this week I will show all the bids.


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## IMAGE (Oct 21, 2007)

I'm going to guess the one if the top picture went for $75-85k (with bids up to $175k) 

I guess the one in the bottom picture went for $15k (with bids up to $40k)


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

IMAGE;1313060 said:


> I'm going to guess the one if the top picture went for $75-85k (with bids up to $175k)
> 
> I guess the one in the bottom picture went for $15k (with bids up to $40k)


I got something around 70-80k on the top and 10-12k on the bottom.

Does that make me a lowballer since I knew Images numbers and came in under his?


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## DGODGR (Nov 30, 2008)

Paul,
I wanted to commend you on coming up with such an interesting thread. I thought so from the beginning but I had a sinking feeling with many of the posts. I'm not sure if you had intended to do this, or not, but you have exposed some very basic ethical issues and how many of us would act when the temptation may arrise. Part of my sinking feeling was the critical comments made about your business practices. Especially when everything I have seen or heard about your business (only info I have is from this forum) practices is that they have proven to be successful for the long haul. You did find a way to bring me back from the funk though. It was, in my opinion, something that has contributed to your successes. You had the opportunity to chop some knees yet you kept the whole thread on track by staying the high road. Good job. I look forward to you sharing more of the knowledge that has taken you years to aquire. I'm sure that all of us will be better for it.
Maybe now I should go and rub all the brown off of my nose!


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## NLS1 (Jun 25, 2007)

MIDTOWNPC;1302128 said:


> Neige has so many contracts EVERYTHING is across the street.


Thats awesome! Exactly it I bet!



jomama45;1302298 said:


> I think that's a point that many here would have never picked-up on. If I resided in this same district, I'd certainly offer you my thanks for being efficient & honest. Seeing I don't, I'll merely say congratulations on the winning bid............. Thumbs Up


Yep, you will go farther being honest and fair and trustworthy, than by being greedy just because you feel like it!



StuveCorp;1304174 said:


> You have to look at the three year term. They always say one year is heavy, one average and one below average so it should balance there.
> 
> I would jump for something like this, it would be fun to just go and do one client for the next three years and pocket 100 large. I would even wear the T-shirt: 'I lowball like Paul'. Thumbs Up


We gotta make shirts like that, I would wear one too!



DGODGR;1313689 said:


> Paul,
> I wanted to commend you on coming up with such an interesting thread. I thought so from the beginning but I had a sinking feeling with many of the posts. I'm not sure if you had intended to do this, or not, but you have exposed some very basic ethical issues and how many of us would act when the temptation may arrise. Part of my sinking feeling was the critical comments made about your business practices. Especially when everything I have seen or heard about your business (only info I have is from this forum) practices is that they have proven to be successful for the long haul. You did find a way to bring me back from the funk though. It was, in my opinion, something that has contributed to your successes. You had the opportunity to chop some knees yet you kept the whole thread on track by staying the high road. Good job. I look forward to you sharing more of the knowledge that has taken you years to aquire. I'm sure that all of us will be better for it.
> Maybe now I should go and rub all the brown off of my nose!


Well said, Paul you are a wealth of information and patience, on the phone and here, thanks for the great thread and all the good info.

To be honest, I would rather have a business like yours over anyone else on this site. Hard working, honest, and profitable. Thats what I want! Dan


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Wow guys, thank you so much for all those heart felt words. I actually called over my children and had them read those last two comments from Dan and Jason. I think I actually impressed them today. Thanks again, and I plan to continue to share and help others in this great industry of ours.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

So here we go: Site number 1 that is newly paved with no google image went for $32 grand, I was next at $58 grand, and a third company came in at $138 grand. Then site number 2, I managed to get for $14 grand, first year, then 2.5% increase next year, and another 2.5% increase for the third year option. The next price was $15 grand for each year. and the last one came in at $45 grand. This will be the first time in 15 years that we have a contract that is 3 miles outside our target area. I am very pleased with this one.


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

Neige;1316327 said:


> This will be the first time in 15 years that we have a contract that is 3 miles outside our target area. I am very pleased with this one.


What size is your target area if I may ask?
No doubt a close proximity to sites is where the money is!


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

CGM Inc.;1316339 said:


> What size is your target area if I may ask?
> No doubt a close proximity to sites is where the money is!


Our area is around 4 sq.miles.


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

we cover an area of approx. 25 km radius from our shop........
Majority is within 7-8km so....


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## shooterm (Feb 23, 2010)

I had the importunity to see first hand a transition from a old company that always had the snowbid to new company on the same contract. The old company was large loaders with pushers to a new company with a cluster of state of the art equipment. I'll only say that its a huge transition for them and they can not fathom how it was done in a hour instead of eight. With the right equipment and right placement snow really is one of the easier things you can do. Good to see neige making his niche.


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## supercuts (Dec 8, 2009)

R.G.PEEL;1300459 said:


> With the equipment he has and states is already in the area, it isn't much of a risk for HIM to do it this way. Someone else with nothing else nearby would lose their shirt. I would have bid significantly higher, I was thinking at the beginning of this thread between 50-70 going only off sat photos. I think its low for what it is but let's say he profits 10k all together, that's still 10k more than not doing it. He certainly doesn't strike me as a stupid guy. He clearly has a plan.


I read things like this and think....what about the opportunity costs. equipment repairs/replacement costs. $10K is alot of money, but its nothing if you have to replace one or two pieces of equipment for a harsh winter.

by the sound of it, Niege knows his costs, and location/efficiency is the key to the game for him. We only do driveways and our prices are competitive, but we're making more than others because our route so tight with little to no drive time. we can blow out 8-10 driveways an hour x$50 isn't too bad for a few pick ups

love the post


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## hummer81 (Feb 1, 2010)

buckwheat_la;1300443 said:


> The question I pose is this, for all those people who complain about low ballers, could it be that you just aren't as good as your competition doing snow removal?


Good point or is it a combination of that and a 750k house and toys vs. the guy that is happy with a moderate truck, house and life? High volume with high overhead doesn't always justify higher prices............ With all due credit to the honest fair paying and charging big boys.ussmileyflag


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