# Type of Ice Melt on concrete



## Skol (Apr 7, 2018)

Hello, everyone. I'm looking for a bit of advice on the type of Ice melt you all use on concrete, that doesn't do, or limits the damage to concrete.

I provide landscaping/lawn services almost strictly, but a large senior citizen complex I'm bidding on also wants me to salt (ice melt) the sidewalks as needed in the winter.

I've read some older threads on pricing for sidewalks on here, but if anybody has some updated advice on pricing for sidewalks, and what brand of ice melt you use, and maybe how far a 50lb bag gets you, I'd really appreciate it. This is a whole new world to me.

Thanks!


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## Boss4557 (Sep 27, 2018)

You should be using calcium chloride or a calcium mix the bags are expensive like 780 a pallet. Do a simple search all these questions have been asked before but I think it’s like 3200 sq/ft per bag I forget.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Boss4557 said:


> You should be using calcium chloride or a calcium mix the bags are expensive like 780 a pallet. Do a simple search all these questions have been asked before but I think it's like 3200 sq/ft per bag I forget.


Calcium is far more damaging to concrete than sodium chloride is. It's also significantly more expensive. If the OP doesn't need it due to temperatures then there's no point spending more to get satisfactory results.

OP, look for a blended product, preferably something without potassium chloride because it's worthless. Even better is to find something treated with foofoo dust...IceBan, Magic, beet juice.


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## Skol (Apr 7, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Calcium is far more damaging to concrete than sodium chloride is. It's also significantly more expensive. If the OP doesn't need it due to temperatures then there's no point spending more to get satisfactory results.
> 
> OP, look for a blended product, preferably something without potassium chloride because it's worthless. Even better is to find something treated with foofoo dust...IceBan, Magic, beet juice.


A sodium chloride blend? Any brands you have in mind? Appreciate it


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Also something with some smaller rock has better sustainability then Calcium... As Mark said unless your using it due to temps it's overkill...

Just went over this with a new property owner at a 28 acre complex... Insists on Calcium as I explained the downsides of it... Has someone in PA who pushes it to him on another property, so I said whatever you want to use...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Skol said:


> A sodium chloride blend? Any brands you have in mind? Appreciate it


Hard to say, seems like every fert supplier has their own blend. What region are you in?


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## Skol (Apr 7, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Hard to say, seems like every fert supplier has their own blend. What region are you in?


Southwest Missouri.... Gets cold, but not below zero very often.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

You definitely don't need calcium. 

Got a SiteOne nearby?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Got a SiteOne nearby?


Yes! Robomelt....


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## Skol (Apr 7, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You definitely don't need calcium.
> 
> Got a SiteOne nearby?


SiteOne Landscape Supply? Google tells me I do.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Skol said:


> SiteOne Landscape Supply? Google tells me I do.


Start there and any other fert suppliers in the area.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

You don’t need nearly as much ice melt as most people put on walks

the excess icemelt is typically the reason for damage to concrete and landscape 

if you use 800 pounds per acre as a guideline 
Then a 4 foot walk , 100 feet long is only going to use 7-8 pounds of product (more if you’re trying to melt if packed snow or ice) 

it’s really hard to apply “exact amounts” by hand 
Which is why I said “guidelines”
Unless you’re really talented with a broad cast spreader, a drop spreader is going to be easier to use for sidewalk applications.

you can also buy liquid application push carts 
Their like tanks on wheels that spray the sidewalks. 
not too shabby for cleared walls that just need a no slip surface to get them clear and wet 
Not too good if there is build up (like lots of foot traffic before the walk was shoveled)


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

tpendagast said:


> You don't need nearly as much ice melt as most people put on walks
> 
> the excess icemelt is typically the reason for damage to concrete and landscape
> 
> ...


How does excess ice melt damage concrete?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)




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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> How does excess ice melt damage concrete?


I thought freeze/ thaw cycles damaged concrete...learning again.


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## Skol (Apr 7, 2018)

Appreciate all the info.... Is there a setting you put your drop spreader on? 
On shoveling sidewalks, do you guys charge by the linear foot? I was thinking something like $0.13/ft...
Is that far off?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> How does excess ice melt damage concrete?


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ac...risks-they-pose-to-pets-property-2/433875/amp

Excessive ice melt makes matter worse 
Like anything, if you use a product wrong or in excess , bad things happen.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

What’s ice melt?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Skol said:


> Appreciate all the info.... Is there a setting you put your drop spreader on?
> On shoveling sidewalks, do you guys charge by the linear foot? I was thinking something like $0.13/ft...
> Is that far off?


depends on how you plan to clear the sidewalks?
By hand 
With a machine and small plow?
Broom?

it's all really by time not necessarily per linear foot 
Are there steps or turns? Etc etc

you got to take a stab at how long it will take your crew to clear the walks and go from there 
After time you'll get the hang of it but there really isn't a science to fall back on to estimate walk clearing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Sexton said. "You might have a bag of salt that has a non-corrosive inhibitor


I would never buy something with a non-corrosive inhibitor. 

I want something that has a corrosion inhibitor.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

tpendagast said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ac...risks-they-pose-to-pets-property-2/433875/amp
> 
> Excessive ice melt makes matter worse
> Like anything, if you use a product wrong or in excess , bad things happen.


So they're referring to hungry salt...got it.

If this is true, why is there asphalt under my canopy where I store my salt and why are the concrete blocks I installed in 2005 still whole?

Both have had large chunks of salt sitting on or in contact with them for almost 15 years.

Or, since accuweather can't even come close to getting a forecast correct, they most certainly shouldn't be giving advice on deicers.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

I like how the article claims that ice melts can cause concrete and some asphalts to crack.

I'd like to see some hard evidence supporting that........


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Salt is hard, not sure if it’s good evidence


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

https://www.reinders.com/products/2...avqHZa4YsZkOhCkzu1nNwg285ycTKhCRoCF74QAvD_BwE

I used to order this stuff. Bought it from Reinders, but I'm sure others carry it. Always had good luck with it, and never damaged anything.


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## plow4beer (Nov 16, 2016)

Just do a search on hungry salt and you’ll learn everyth8ng there is to know


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jomama45 said:


> I like how the article claims that ice melts can cause concrete and some asphalts to crack.
> 
> I'd like to see some hard evidence supporting that........


What would you know?


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Calcium is far more damaging to concrete than sodium chloride is.


This statement is false. What damages concrete is frequent freeze and thaw cycles. The lower freezing point from calcium chloride actually reduces the amount of freeze and thaw cycles. In turn, they are less damaging to pavements than sodium chloride because they have lower freezing points.

Treated salt would be the best option imo.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

rippinryno said:


> This statement is false. What damages concrete is frequent freeze and thaw cycles. The lower freezing point from calcium chloride actually reduces the amount of freeze and thaw cycles. In turn, they are less damaging to pavements than sodium chloride because they have lower freezing points.
> 
> I'm sure you will want to argue this and if you do, i would ask that you provide some factual evidence as I have.


Actually, calcium will chemically attack some of the ingredients in concrete whereas sodium causes problems with rebar. Mich Tech did a study on it. Google is your friend.

PS Properly mixed and installed concrete isn't affected one bit by freeze\thaw cycles.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Air entrainment ,its your friend ! Also a quote from my doctoral thesis - nine of the ten studies summarized in this research indicate that *specimens exposed to sodium chloride experienced only minor, if any, adverse effects*, while *specimens exposed to calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, or CMA experienced significant deterioration,* including scaling, cracking, mass loss, and compressive strength loss. The researchers found that the deterioration suffered by specimens exposed to calcium chloride was caused by the formation of calcium oxychloride and complex salts, while specimens exposed to magnesium chloride and CMA deteriorated because of M-S-H and brucite formation.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

In all the years Ive done this Ive only seen one time where any type of salt ruined concrete and this company would lay about 6 tons of salt where we do it now with about 2. It was so bad the parking bumpers were basically just re-bar by spring. No matter what ice melt you use there's going to be an equal chance of it hurting the concrete due to freeze/thaw and Ive only seen Spaulding twice and that was from a residential with a brand new driveway poured and 2 months later having his plow guy salt it after every plow and that was only bad where the guy would back into the driveway and turn the spreader on so there's a lot more concentration of salt getting put down in that area, the other was a garage floor where the car sat.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Brian Young said:


> In all the years Ive done this Ive only seen one time where any type of salt ruined concrete and this company would lay about 6 tons of salt where we do it now with about 2.


Are you sure the salt ruined the concrete? Is it possible it wasn't air entrained, properly mixed and installed?



Brian Young said:


> It was so bad the parking bumpers were basically just re-bar by spring.


Those things are junk, they disintegrate frequently.



Brian Young said:


> No matter what ice melt you use there's going to be an equal chance of it hurting the concrete due to freeze/thaw


Cow cookies



Brian Young said:


> Ive only seen Spaulding twice and that was from a residential with a brand new driveway poured and 2 months later having his plow guy salt it after every plow and that was only bad where the guy would back into the driveway and turn the spreader on so there's a lot more concentration of salt getting put down in that area,


That is a result of not using the proper mix and being installed improperly.

You prove this by stating you've only seen it twice. If it was actually salt or "ice melt" causing the problem, you would have seen it far more than twice.

Salt does not harm properly mixed, installed, air entrained concrete whether it is 1 week old or 100 years old.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Ugh...We are back on this??...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Ugh...We are back on this??...


Yes


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I thought that salt didn’t melt ice?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> I thought that salt didn't melt ice?


Does ice melt salt?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Does ice melt salt?


Yes, but it needs to be at 1474 degrees Fahrenheit.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

I want concrete evidence


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Salt doesn't ruin concrete, if that was the case we wouldn't have concrete bridges having tons of salt applied to them every winter. Cracks in the concrete may be more acceptable to damage as the ice/snow melts, gets in the cracks and freezes. Now causing more damage and a pothole is starting .


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Everyone is still aware that the concrete mafia does add calcium chloride to concrete mix in cooler temps to keep from freezing before properly curing.

Who knows. Doesn’t mean it’s good or bad to coat the top of finished concrete with it. I never had issues. 

All I know is if they ask for it, I buy it and sell it to them.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

benefit of *calcium* chloride in *concrete* is an accelerated rate of hydration for cement. This significantly reduces setting time to facilitate rapid attainment of early strength and easier protection of freshly placed *concrete* in cold weather.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Hydromaster said:


> I thought that salt didn't melt ice?





cjames808 said:


> Everyone is still aware that the concrete mafia does add calcium chloride to concrete mix in cooler temps to keep from freezing before properly curing.


Just to clarify, CaCl doesn't work as an anti-freeze in any way to plastic/fresh concrete, it just aids in possibly building heat and accelerating the concrete set time.

Also, CaCl is rarely used on regulated jobs with steel reinforcement that has any kind of oversight/inspection/testing on site. It get's used on residential work somewhat frequently yet, but it's rarely acceptable in commercial/industrial/governmental work these days. There's a plethora of non-chloride accelerants that are used with steel now-a-days. Most of the studies and awareness of the corrosion issues with CaCl and concrete goes back to the 1950's and 60's.

Signed,

Local Concrete Mobster.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

I know these guys, who know other guys, and we'll those guys have guys that know alot of other guys, and one of those guys, one mix's salt, and the other guy mix's concrete..... Well, I hope those two guys never meet.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Putting flour On the bread is a good way to ruin it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jomama45 said:


> Just to clarify, CaCl doesn't work as an anti-freeze in any way to plastic/fresh concrete, it just aids in possibly building heat and accelerating the concrete set time.
> 
> Also, CaCl is rarely used on regulated jobs with steel reinforcement that has any kind of oversight/inspection/testing on site. It get's used on residential work somewhat frequently yet, but it's rarely acceptable in commercial/industrial/governmental work these days. There's a plethora of non-chloride accelerants that are used with steel now-a-days. Most of the studies and awareness of the corrosion issues with CaCl and concrete goes back to the 1950's and 60's.
> 
> ...


Oh great...now you're getting all factual and stuff.

That's as bad as @Philbilly2 bringing math into these discussions.


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## Wildwaterman (Mar 30, 2019)

Rats...I was told there would be no math...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Oh great...now you're getting all factual and stuff.
> 
> That's as bad as @Philbilly2 bringing math into these discussions.





Wildwaterman said:


> Rats...I was told there would be no math...


There won't be... it confuses the general public too much


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

My whiskey just melted the ice in my glass .....


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