# New equipment break even pt.



## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I'm new to this site and have a couple of questions concerning purchasing new equipment. I'm wondering If anyone has purchased a new truck and plow with a thought as to when a break even point would or should occur. My current truck is on its last legs. I do have a 40HP JD1070 tractor/loader I would like to trailer for odd jobs, I could also stack snow with it. I am a self employed woodworker/cabinetmaker but don't make enough to afford a new vehicle without the equipment paying for a good chunk of the monthly payment. This is where the plowing comes in. Is it reasonable to risk purchasing new equipment that I really can't afford (ie.3/4 ton Ford or Chevy w/ 8' fisher,maybe a trailer read $32k+-), additional insurance, software etc to run a residential plow business this winter in a NH seacoast town full of high income bracket folks. I currently have 0 accounts but am a fast study. I would have to make a least 10k this winter for this plan to work. I know that this is what business plans are for but...hoping to get some input from you business minded folks short of driving up here to NH and slapping me upside the head and asking "what were you thinking!" Thanks


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

OK don't everyone post at once. I see a lot of new trucks plowing snow around here. There must be money to be made but I am in the dark as to how much is a reasonable estimate just doing driveways.It's late in the year and most shop owners must have contracted services already. How many drives is a reasonable number given my inexperience. Currently I only plow myself out with my tractor and 430 loader. I have a long drive with turn around. I also plow around my sawmill as well. Currently, I'm building a timberframe home by myself and therefore the cash is not exactly rolling in. Guys around here usually charge per storm. Seems like a vague way of doing business with no absolutes. I'm waiting for a copy of The Snowplowing Handbook from SIMA. I hope it can clear up a few things. Anyways, great site with lots of useful info.


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## BWinkel (Oct 23, 2003)

It may be a little late in the season to expect to pick up enough business to make $10,000 this year. You would be able to get a good start on next year if you bought it now. You may want to consider the impact of the purchase on your tax situation. You could expense the truck all in one year.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

BWinkle, thanks for your reply. I had not considered tax implications. To busy thinking about payments I guess. I have another question since your from the area. I currently am located in Hampton, NH and am building in S. Berwick, ME. on the York side. If I do obtain a full roster of clients this winter but move to S. Berwick this summer, would I be better off serving the NH seacoast next year even though it is an hour south of where I'd be living. I would think that they charge more down here than over the ME line where businesses and residences are more spread out and those that can afford plowing services many times have their own truck. I don't know this for a fact but I would bet an average driveway down here would be smaller and would get maybe 20% more. Any thoughts you'd care to share?


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

There is no break even point. The truck ages every year , it will need repairs , the transmission will blow 100 miles out of warranty. You will be sick with the flue when the big one hits. Your biggest customer will stick you for the bill. someone will steal your pump while you are in home depot. Yes you will make money , but dont expect to pay for the truck just by plowing . I still enjoy plowing , I make great money after 20 years and building a loyal client base. I have killed some trucks over the years too , mostly from salt damage . 

I would utilize your loader , pick up a blade and have someone fabricate a mount in the bucket , now you can windrow snow and stack it, make some money this wy before you drop a large chunk of change on a new truck with a plow.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ah Matt, finally a voice of reason. Murphy does have a way of mucking things up. But, I still like pushing the white stuff or just about anything with my compact. I would hope to try and alleviate the hassles as much as possible by buying new or recent equipment. Right now I don't have a way to trailer my tractor since I drive an 87' Toyota P/U on it's last legs. I also have to store the tractor on a woodlot 1 hr north. The toyota doesn't owe me a dime though at 250+ miles of hard use. I'm just waiting for it to break in half some day soon as I drive down the road. I need a truck reguardless and had been looking at used tundras. I don't believe they would be enough to safely pull 7000lbs so that's where the new plow truck idea came from. Incentives are pretty good right now on new, 7k to 8k off a new 3/4 ton extra cab. Interest rates are still decent as well. If I buy its going to be in the next two weeks. Yesterday I drove an f250SD extended cab 5.4 gas xlt with a bunch of extras including leather, plow and tow pkgs, heated mirrors, cd changer, carbon panels, (I'd be embarrassed to drive it after having owned the ratyest truck in town for so long). MSRP was $36,700 I left with a price of $32,895 with 8' fisher. thats roughly $29K for the truck and a free 100k mile warranty as long as I change my oil at the dealership every 3k mi. Is this still crazy?


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## Sidebuz (Aug 10, 2003)

My honest, no BS two cents: don't buy it. I started with a '92 Chevy 3/4HD 4X4 with a Meyer 8.5 straight. It was my dad's old pick-up. I have plowed a few years, saved up some money, now I use '01 Chevy w/ 8-2 Boss Poly-V. The only reason I could afford it was the bank interest rate is %4.75 and I only owe 11K on it (including the plow). And no, I didn't save up all the money from pushing snow. Actually, my summer work did it. 

If I was you, look at the used truck lots. You can find 2-4 yr. old Fords or Chevys for are 30-40% off what you just drove (usually they just came off a lease). Use that tractor if you find a way to store it closer. Stay within 15-20 min. of your home base. After that, you are wasting your time driving (no pay). Save your money and then get what you can afford. 

Best advice I got: "Never finance a snowplow/truck based on what YOU think you are going to make pushing snow. Buy what you can afford without pushing a single time." You can never count on Mother Nature.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

I have a toyota I plow with its my third my second did break in half , right in front of the rear spring perches. Sidebuz is right if ou can look for a late model used in good shape. My recent purchaces were a 95 f 350 crew cab diesel140,000 miles for 5100.00 , a 93 international diesel low profile with automatic 
5000.00 with 160,000 ( thats 16000 per year , nothing for a diesel) At a government auction 2 years ago I bought a 1988 f350 gas with 23,000 original miles for 700.00 (sold the sewer attachment on back and made money. I hang plows on every truck I own. There are deals to be had if you look. Here in Maryland when we had a few years of littl or no snow I pick up complete plow assemblies cheap from guys trying to make their truck payments . Look or a truck that can handle a trailer 4 your machine , the loader can make money all year, plowing is seasonal , its Icying on the cake for me , In a good year how sweet it is , in a season with no snow I dont care everything has been paid for when I bought it.


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## BWinkel (Oct 23, 2003)

DeereGuy
The last thing I would want to do is commute an hour in a snowstorm to get to my plow route. The best thing to do is try to build up a clientele near your new house in S.Berwick. The only way to make money on residential is to consolidate and eliminate travel time.
Sidebuz makes a good point in that you shouldn't have to count on your plowing income to make your truck payments. For my situation, the tax write off of a new truck is too good to pass up. We run two trucks and plan to add or replace a truck every two years. If it doesn't snow, I can still afford to make the payments.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I appreciate the logic all of you. I can see that I have more than one predicament. Not the least of which is, if I get a plow truck this year and am successful at building a client base, the move in location to ME next year is going to really screw things up. Almost wasted effort. I hate waste. I think I'll just stay home and sleep on those snowy days... NOT.
I don't mind working on equipment. I even like the idea of having a truck that I can really use, without worrying about depreciation. After all, I had the same truck for 16 years, even when it stopped fitting the bill. ( A funny sight, me driving down the street with my 87' toy, home welded steel flatbed and a 1500lb sawmill, tractor implement or woodworking machine strapped to the back; all with a 90 hp four banger 250k mi. engine that's never been cracked open except for a timing chain once. (Now, I'm rambling)) What I don't like is the thought that this used domestic truck I am going to pay good money for and which doesn't have a warranty or has a fairly short one, is someone else's problem turned over to me. I like the idea of having a 100k drive train warranty on a plow truck. After all, somethings gotta go wrong: remember Murphy. I know, there are no guarantees in life but...
I'm still thinking(I can justify almost any mechanical device purchase, just ask my wife)
-----
Eric

I do believe your good advice that snowfall should not dictate whether truck payments are made or not.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

You still have the toyota , find a plow for it , let it make some money this winter . The one on mine is a 6 ft meyers off a cj 7 it took about 4 hours of welding to make the brackets. Your toy sounds like mine it too is a steel flatbed I welded up , It is a bd little truck , its a bit waek on a heavy snow but it still gets the job done. Its a great sidewalk truck .

A good place to find a low mileage truck is from the federal government. Find a GSA (government service administrtion) auction in your area. I bought a 1990 dodge work van in 1996 it had 15,000 miles for 6000.00 I have bought several others over the years all low mileage and low wear . 

As far as the move I would try for a client base where you are , serve them well this season and then If you move sell them to another contractor.


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## Sidebuz (Aug 10, 2003)

Deereguy- for this year, I would start small. If that Toyota is still running half way good, go buy a Toro snow blower. So you are out $500-1000. Better than 32K. Get a couple of clients in your current area. Your breakeven should be hit this winter yet if you knock on some doors, do the fliers thing, ads in newpaper, etc. Then after that, the money can start piling up. 

Next year, make the move. Use the snowblower again, save money until you can buy what you want. There is homeowners that like the snowblower look and is willing to pay a little extra $$. Use that niche this year. It is more work, but you don't get everything in life when you first start out  Just my two cents though... 

Good luck on whatever your decision may be!! 

PS It is snowing in northern IN (first good snow of the year!)


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Boy, you guys are really scaling me down in a hurry. The next person to post will probably suggest I skip the Snowblower and hand shovel everything and I hate to think what the person after that is going to have me use... I started out with a new 3/4 ton truck, new 8' plow(albeit unaffordable), trailer w/ tractor/loader for stacking if we get snow like last year and a game plan that obviously did not set to well with you guys. But that's ok, I appreciate your comments. You have got me squirming, though. I have been looking through the want ads etc. for used vehicles. My 87' Toyota is nearly dead(accept it, I have). It has had a good but hard life and if I put another dollar into it, I might as well flush the $ down the toilet. The next truck will be my primary vehicle too. It will have to fit my two kids and me in it every morning to go to school. It will transport me to my building lot and back daily 100 miles. It will house hand tools for building my own timberframe and for outside work on home interiors etc. It will be the first thing people see when I meet them in their driveway to bid on a new built-in cabinet, kitchen or library. This has been a lacking part of my marketing in the woodworking end of my business. And unfortunately in my neck of the woods maybe the difference between getting a job and not. In other words, The vehicle has to look descent. Believe me I don't like playing the game but that's the reality. So I really am not looking only for just a plow truck. If that were the case I would be looking for a $4000. beater. I do have one other question, plowing with my 1/2 yd bucket is slow. I could come up with a plow to attach to the front of the bucket like one of you suggested or purchase a quick connect version from Curtis but what about the big PTO powered snowblowers for the back of the tractor. Any insights into how well they work. Who would be a likely customer in the northeast.


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## dmontgomery (Oct 3, 2003)

My father in law has a neighbor with a rear mounted tractor blower.....very slow......and a hassle to use...........at least from what I have seen.....


Derek


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

Hey I am in the seacoast of NH too.
With the snow we get around here it is very reasonable to make 10k in a winter. A Winter like 2002/2003 winter my friend had 27 driveways by the end of the winter and made $12,500. He didn't have a plow on his truck till after the first 2 storms. You could start in Febuary and still end up getting 20 resident. customers by the end of the season. I do a mix of commerical and driveways and so far this winter have made $3000.


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

My humble opinion: If you can't afford the new rig on your own without using plow money to help make the payments, you should hold off. The cost of the rig is only the cost of admission. Take into account the extra insurance, extra "preventive" maintenance (you definitely don't want to skimp here), etc, things breaking (they do) and you could really be hurting. Remember the winter of 2001-2002?

I would suggest finding a good used truck that's never had a plow on it. Make sure it meets all of your other needs first, then get the plow. You could also try to find a used plow truck that's been maintained by a maniac and handled properly.

I agree with the earlier comments that you do not want to travel 35-40 miles to go handle your customer base. I rarely take jobs on the other side of town.

Good luck!


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

HamptonPlow I assume that you live in town so I have a question for you. Do most of the residentials get charged by the storm around here?. Whats an average fee for a small drive? How cut throat is the atmosphere in this neck of the woods. (Hampton has a ton of small driveways and small businesses.) I ask because a lot of the posters with these questions on this site are down south or midwest. This is New England(Metro Boston) and everything's expensive. I don't think some folks can fathom just how much services run here. If I had a way last year to trailer my JD1070/430loader how much were contractor's paying to stack and move snow around. I saw a lot of activity using compacts w/ loaders as the season progressed last year with no melt in sight. Could this boost my potential earnings alot or not enough to invest in a used trailer. And yes, I'm back looking for an F250/350 3-5 years old trying to see how much truck I can get for around $18k.

Thanks for your input and everyone else as well,

Eric

Avalancheplow, these are the numbers I'm talking about; except
last year wasn't exactly a typical year.


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## Rappa (Dec 2, 2003)

Sounds like you need a new truck for your business anyways. Buy your truck and plow and go to town. If you can pay for it without the snowplowing income, than you will be all set. All snowplowing income will be a bonus. That is how I look at it. We have had two storms already this year and I have already made your goal $$. I am just mainly doing driveways.


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

Deereguy,

I don't think that it's been very cut throat around here at all. In the last five years I've only lost one customer to a low baller. When that customer wanted back in, I had already given away their spot on my list. It does seem that there are more folks offerring plowing this year than there has been in a while, but this can fluctuate from season to season. Seems that after a big season there's more folks plowing the following year. After a mild season, the ranks definitely thin.

I usually have a base of around 35 customers. I balance my list to include working folks who need to be out, retirees and folks working out of there homes who don't have to be out right away and then snow birds who leave town for the rest of winter after Christmas. I can plow these last. 

My fees are set up to provide continuity from year to year. Some of my customers pay by the push, some pay a flat rate for the season, and some pay a combination that includes so many pushes for the fee, than a lesser "by the push" fee after that. I always have two or three family's going through a hard time that I take care of for free. Except for the customers paying by the push, I include in my contracts that I won't raise their fee for at least two or three seasons.

I'm sorry, but I don't really know what people with tractors charge on a regular basis. I know one guy with a big front end loader that I've had to hire for one of my big driveways if there's no melting. He usually charges me $50, I always give him $75. 

Last year toward the end of the season when we still had gotten no melting, I rented a bobcat for the day and moved some piles at some of my customers's houses. I did not pass this cost onto them. Some would say that's nuts, but the truth is if your regualr customers see that you're not out to nickel and dime them, and you treat them with respect and every home as if it's your own, you will end up with a very loyal and understanding group of customers.


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## rainair (Nov 11, 2003)

*new or used?*

look on e bay there are nice trucks that would work and not be that expensive... thats where i bought all 4 of mine jm2c


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

HamptonPlow, seems like you have a good business going and I'm sure your customers appreciate you. Since you've been at this for a while, and it sounds like you have this down to a science, I'd like to ask. Any idea what an average year is like around here because I don't have a clue, although I'm sure the data is somewhere. I n other words, how many plowable storms in an avg. year? Better yet, how many pushes in an avg. year. I bet you have this figured out. Care to shorten my learning curve? Lastly, do you offer sanding or salt services or sidewalks or is that mostly the commercial guys who have to because of liability.

Thanks,
deereguy

To anyone who is following this thread, I haven't purchased a truck yet but the dealers are calling me like their next meal is relying on it. Out of six e-mails, 3 Ford, 3 Chevy, I sent attached to an Edmunds.com report I have probably received 30 e-mails and at least that many phone calls. If you try to get e-mail quotes(only received 2) this way, don't give out your home phone if you can help it.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

If you are going to buy new dont limit yourself to local dealers . Use the internet to find a hungry dealer somewhere in the country.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

*BREAK-EVEN POINT*

My break even point is basically my monthly payments. For my situation, I do not have the mechanical know-how or plain and simple "brains" to fix an older automobile. Therefore, it benefits me to go with newer trucks. However, I base it on my monthly payments. I know I can afford "x" amount a month and I know I can get "y" amount for my existing truck. If my payments are the same or less and the truck is greater than 3 years old, I'll go ahead and make the deal.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

FYI, just bought a Chevy here in central jersey a few hundred over invoice the day after thanksgiving with the 0% interset. If you go at the end of the month, especially at the end of the year, these lots want their cars/trucks off of the lot to save on the taxes/insurance they are going to pay. I went to one dealer and had him "find" me one. He had it for me in two business days.


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

I am new to the site but I think I can add some value here.
I am a business owner (not in the landscaping or plowing business) but who has been plowing since I have been big enough to touch the pedals. I used to plow for my dad's excavating company and operate the heavy equipment he owned when it was out on lease for snow removal.

Anyways I still plow to keep my rental properties clear and my company clear. I have been reading the post’s here on what to charge for plowing. And I don’t think anybody it hitting the mark on what to charge for plowing. I feel this is an excellent topic to suggest the proper way to determine billing.

First and foremost some one needs to determine his cost’s to provide this service. Once the costs are determined then you would determine what profit margin you would add in to make this a profitable business venture. I hope I don’t offend anybody but to say
Charge what the market will bear or Someone suggesting an hourly rate. Or can I make 10,000.00 this year $10,000.00 in billing is different From $10,000.00 dollars of profits and that must be understood .First a cost has to be determined then you can figure an hourly rate. Once an hourly rate is determined with the profit margin built in to it then you would guesstimate how long it will take to do the plowing and from there it should be a flat rate for each visit to the property to clear snow. I would think the flat rate pricing should be tiered at different levels as in 2” to 4” of snow would take so many hour to clear and the price would be how many hours to clear the snow time’s the labor rate with the profit built into it. Then from 4” to 8” you know it will take longer to do so you would have more labor costs involved and price accordingly. Each flat rate price should have a port to port travel charge built in to it. 

I also feel the deeper the snow the harder the vehicle has to work the more wear and tear you are putting on the vehicles and a higher cost factor for repairs should be used to calculate the repair cost’s. If I was plowing as a business venture I would insist on having a seasonal contract that I would require the customer to sign and I would have a nominal fee attached to the contract just for offering my services and for getting them into my plowing route. I would require a deposit that would include the nominal fee for me to promise to provide my services and also ½ of the estimated first storms services. I would clearly explain billing terms and any account over 30 days would not be serviced until account is paid in full I suggest this type of an agreement because as a child I remember all the places my dad used to do and be unpaid at the end of the season after working 18 hours days or thru the night to provide his equipment and services. Or arriving at a site during the first storm, that had asked my dad to provide plowing service for only to find some one already working on the site. So now he had to hustle to fill the hole in his route after he has already turned down other potential customers because he thought his route was full.

To determining pricing, it’s a little difficult to determine pricing because this is a seasonal business. Most of the landscapers, paving guys, excavating guys already own the truck and are looking to keep the trucks working all year round instead of letting them sit in the winter thus they are lessening there per hour over head cost’s. This is a hard concept to follow but. If you run a business and its seasonal. And lets say for an example all of the cost of running this company equals $1,200.00 (a ridiculous figure but we will work with this for our example) So the cost of running this company is $1,200.00 for the year but the company only works 6 months out of the year so his monthly over head is actually $200.00 per month. Wear as if they where to offset the year with plowing and only add slightly to there over head cost with the purchase of a plow, the labor to use the plow, Maybe an additional rider on the insurance policy they may increase there over head for the year 50% meaning now the overhead for the company is $1,800.00 for the year but now they are working the full year. So if we do the math $1,800.00 divided by 12 working months in the year = a overhead cost of only $150.00 per month instead of the 200.00 figure. So although you added to your overhead you have increased your billable hours in the year actually lessening your cost per hour to operate your company. That why it’s difficult for me to be able to make a spreadsheet to help you guys determine proper Pricing.

I will see what type of responses there are to this topic and if it’s wanted I will further it with more on what your overhead cost actually are. Some folks may just think they get paid at work $17.00 so if they can make 20.00 per hour plowing they are getting rich.I will not be able to help those guys.But a legitimate beisness man looking to be able to add some more profits to his year I can help. 

Anyways 

Good Luck and if your don’t understand something on this post ask me


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

I appreciate your incite, however, you are saying "I would do this..." and "I would do that..." In others words, I wouldn't give you as much credit as someone else who says "I did this..." and "I did that..."


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DJL _
> *I appreciate your incite, however, you are saying "I would do this..." and "I would do that..." In others words, I wouldn't give you as much credit as someone else who says "I did this..." and "I did that..." *


But as for the "I would do this" and "I would do that".

I can tell you that in any business venture I have started

I have done this and I have done that

And I always had a clear and precise knowledge of what it would cost to operate the company long before I started trying to figure out what the selling price of my product would be, so that I know it's a venture I would be able to generate profits in.

I had figured I might get a lot of heat or resistance on this post because I am told this every time I try and explain to a person who may have been running a business for the last 20 years that they have to know what it cost to operate a business before developing there sales price.

I speak from experience of owning successful service orientated companies and although I do not own a plowing company more or less when you get right down to the bottom of it. A service company is a service company regardless of the type of service you provide


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

*Re: BREAK-EVEN POINT*



> _Originally posted by DJL _
> *My break even point is basically my monthly payments. For my situation, I do not have the mechanical know-how or plain and simple "brains" to fix an older automobile. Therefore, it benefits me to go with newer trucks. However, I base it on my monthly payments. I know I can afford "x" amount a month and I know I can get "y" amount for my existing truck. If my payments are the same or less and the truck is greater than 3 years old, I'll go ahead and make the deal. *


DJL

I just re read your post on this topic and I see you have done your math and it seems that your goal is not to genrate profits but to actually afford you to be able to be driving a new truck with the proceeds from your plowing venture.

And I did not see in calculation how much your paying your self for labor to plow,or what the liability insurance rider is for plowing.You are carring a rider for it? any time your using a vechicle for commerce you had better be insured for it.Your regular policy only covers for whats written in and using for commerce with out a rider means your not covered for a loss if it should occor. Aot of other costs are missing but I do understand you are not doing it for profits you are doing it to have a new truck


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

IH82PLOW,

You are a little off the mark.

First,
Sorry if you got offended by what I wrote, but it is the truth. I'm not saying you are wrong nor that you didn't provide valuable information. You in fact did. I even agree with a lot of what you said. However...you still do not run a snow plow business and I'd take your opinion a little less than the opinion of someone that already has an established snow plow business. Is that such a problem, speaking to someone with the most credibility?

Second, 
Last I checked someone asked how others do a break-even on their pick-ups. I gave one for my PARTICULAR situation and what I do about it. I didn't know you were aware of my situation and could be so "on top if it." Perhaps my business is set-up so that "X" amount allocated to a truck payment is sufficient for me to make a profit. I also don't recall stating "snow plow business." Perhaps I do other things other than snow plowing.

Third,
Last I checked you were not my insurance agent nor do you have any clue what I'm covered for, not covered for, or what my limitations are. Thanks for informing me!! I have a much, much better understanding of my situation after your inputs. 

Lastly,
Do you include in your calculations the cost of having a pickup truck available for personal use and being able to help out friends and relatives? Let's say I have parents that are old and shouldn't be shoveling snow, so I drive over and plow their driveway. According to you I have to look at the business strictly as profit margin. Maybe I should charge my parents and the rest of my family for my services so I can make an even BIGGER profit!!!!!


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

Hey no offence taken on this what so ever. And I sincerely apologies if I have pried into your personal affairs. For sure I do not know you, nor why you have a plow truck, or what you use it for. 
I did however make an assumption that because the question was posted in the 

Elements of Business 
Finance,Managment, Marketing, Taxes, and other material pertaining to the back office operations of snow plowing.

Section of the forum you were speaking from a plowing business owner’s perspective and the fellow asking the question was also asking it as a business owners concern 

Had the question been posted in the 

Personal Use Plowing 
This forum is for the members who don't own or operate a snow plowing business. Post here if you want to discuss non-commercial equipment or ask plowing tips from the pro's to help keep your driveways clean and clear of snow & ice.

Section of the forum I would not of answered as I did .I apologies for making the assumption you were in it for profits 

If you are in it for profits please re read my post I have a lot of information in there to help a person make profits in any type of a service orientated business


AS QUOTED
“I also don't recall stating "snow plow business." Perhaps I do other things other than snow plowing.” 

I am sure you may be doing other things but if your doing the other thing to subsidize a plowing business I think your making a mistake 

AS QUOTED 

Third,
Last I checked you were not my insurance agent nor do you have any clue what I'm covered for, not covered for, or what my limitations are. Thanks for informing me!! I have a much, much better understanding of my situation after your inputs.


I was just giving some information. A lot of folks don’t take the time to read there policies or just cant decipher the language they use in the policy and I find most people and companies are under insured and are not even aware of it.
Any time you are using your property for commerce you must have it clearly stated that you are covered for it. It’s a terrible think to say but as an example if you were doing a twenty dollar drive way clearing (not to say you do twenty dollar drive way clearings) and you ran over somebody, or damaged some property and the property owner decided to sue you or better yet the insurance company of the property owner decided to sue you (as you know with the rising cost of claims lately all the insurance companies subjugate all of there claims they have to pay out Your insurance company can deny coverage and they can go after your personal assets to collect on dept the insurance company paid out).
If it’s done as a courtesy or favor or neighborly gesture you could fight to have the insurance company cover it. But as soon as it’s done for commerce even if it only 20 dollars YOU ARE NOT COVERED. 

AS QUOTED 

Lastly,
Do you include in your calculations the cost of having a pickup truck available for personal use and being able to help out friends and relatives? Let's say I have parents that are old and shouldn't be shoveling snow, so I drive over and plow their driveway. According to you I have to look at the business strictly as profit margin. Maybe I should charge my parents and the rest of my family for my services so I can make an even BIGGER profit!!!!!


No I don’t think you should charge your parents, relatives, But do feel you should charge your friends a discounted fee maybe but they should be charged none the less, I think if your doing plowing as a business you should understand your costs involved, Price accordingly to make profits then share your wealth with your parents, relatives, or friends, If that wealth is to plow them out for free or to send them south for the winter then do it. It’s much easier to share the wealth when you have a profitable business. 


AGAIN A SINCERE APOLOGY IF I OFFENDED YOU

It certainly was not what I set out to do


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Thanks for the input, I do appreciate it and you have valid and valuable points. I do run a business, it is a lawn care business of which I do plowing in the winter...and yes I run it for profit. Granted, I haven't been in business for even a year yet, but I made darn sure I was covered for insurance, because of listening to people like yourself, thank you. One thing I kept hearing is CYA and I made sure to do that.

However, I'm arguing that it can be difficult (although not impossible) to do what you said in your previous post, especially for my situation. Since I run my business part-time---meaning I have a 40hr/wk job AND my business (which I'm attempting to run for profit). I would LOVE to stop my full-time job and completely rely on my business, but this is not going to happen within the next year or two. My objective is too get a base of customers and spread out from there. The best advertisement is word of mouth, which I did pretty good on this year.

One of the reasons why I supplement plowing in the winter is because I'm finding out, especially for commercial accounts, they want a business that can do both lawn/grounds maintenance and snow/ice control. If you can't do both you can't bid for the contract. According to your math...let's say I have only 5 accounts that each take an hour to service in less than 6 inches of snow. How do you figure a hourly rate if you can't control mother nature and don't know whether or not their will be any snow storms. According to your calculations I would add up all of my expenses add a profit margin and divide by my five accounts to get an hourly wage assuming a certain number of snow storms.

That's great, but I'd be way over company #2's mark and I would never have any accounts. But, if I suck it up for a year or two (make an investment) then as I get more and more clients I would increase my profit margin. Seriously, in your opinion, am I going about this all wrong?


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

I am glad you have said you’re in it for profits.
Put that in righting and post it on the dashboard of your new truck and the mirror in your bathroom that you have to look at every morning when you wake up.

Starting with lower profits are OK to put a hurting on your competitors with the idea of increasing your market share and raising your pricing as you prove your worth to your new customer base. But I always think it’s very dangerous starting in the lower price range because you end up with customer that want to pay in the lower price range but expect exceptional service. Word of mouth is the best advertising for any company but if you are working cheap you end up delivering cheap services and when your customer complains to his friends and neighbors about your poor service, He does not say I am getting what I paid for he is saying Joe Blows company stinks he does a poor job. But the person who is paying you proper fees for your service will tell a friend “although Joe Blow is expensive he is a pleasure to use and very reliable” that’s the type of word of mouth you need regardless of the type of service business you own.

I also feel a business plan needs to be written every year for a company to grow and succeed. It needs to be a very strategic business plan stating your goals and plans for the company’s growth. Your plan also helps you determine your costs 

A plan should include last year’s total sales, total owned equipment and the goals of the company. What you want out of the company what direction you want it to go in.ect ect Its hard to explain but there are books available that explain the importance of writing a plan for a company and how to do it. Sorry if I am telling you to go out and spend money but if you want to be a business man you had better know what a business man is supposed to do for his company 

I highly recommend a educational tape set called THE SECRETS OF POWER NEGOTIATING. By Roger Dawson and sold thru Nightingale Conant Its an audio tape set about 10 hour in length I constantly listen to these tapes to remind me what or how I am supposed to sell my company.( NO I DON’T WORK FOR THEM OR HAVE STOCK IN THE COMPANY) I listen to these tapes while I am plowing my properties make the time fly by. A lot of times I still be sitting in my vehicle after I have arrived at a destination because the information is so good.

Anyways I always recommend this tape set to anybody who want to start a company because most people are excellent at what they do but have no formal training in negotiations and incase anybody doesn’t understand this everything in life is a negotiation no matter how large or small and if your going to own a company you had better also get an education in how to profitable sell your company or your services and to sell some thing most times you have to negotiate a deal to sell your services or company but what most people fail to understand that discounting your services or company is not negotiating its actually discounting your services or company.



Now how to determine what your costs are. 
Right down a piece of paper every expense you had last season.
And just keep adding to the list. I mean add every thing in you spent on your company to make it run and deliver your services to your customers. I mean every thing tolls, tickets for parking in a wrong spot, permits, don’t right down the costs yet just try and list every thing. Then go fill in the empty spots with your costs. Don’t even add in your labor yet. I am sure you will be shocked. If your company phone is also your home phone then split the cost of it. If your cell phone is used half for personal use and half for company use split the cost. Keep going thru this list inputting figures but don’t add in your labor then add into your sheet-estimated maintenance on your equipment, estimated new equipment purchases. Then subtract that from the total sales you sold last year. Then figure how many hour you actually worked for your company and most folks are shocked that although they were putting money in the bank they only paid them self’s around five dollars per hour. So as you can see it’s easy to work for free and not realize it.Try getting some figure on paper and get back to me. I will then help you determine how many hours you have available to sell to your customers and then get you in the right direction on what your hourly sales rate should be .

SO NO ONE GET’S CONFUSED I AM NOT SAYING TO BILL OUT HOURLY.I am saying bill out by the job or visit but base it on your hourly rate. I find that anybody who sells his or her services by the hour has a difficult time convincing the customer of the value. But when you sell a visit/service its easy to convince the customer of the value. Perfect example is the guy who’s says I made twenty dollars for a drive way and it only took me 15 minutes that means I am making 80.00 dollars per hour. He is incorrect because he has not accounted for the time to put on the plow (who paid him to do that) the time its going to take to remove the plow, the time it took to fill up the truck, the time it took to clean up the truck. The time it took to arrive at the site, the time its going to take to get to the next job site.Also if you allow the customer to tell you it only worth 20 for the 15 minutes work your also making a mistake.

Question them on what they think the value is to be able to spend the day inside relaxing because the drive way is clear,or not missing a days work because they cant get out to go to work,or the value of not having the aches and pains from shoveling or the doctors visit because they hurt there back,or the value of not freezzeing standing behind a dangerous snow blower,Or the value of not having the concern of some one slipping and falling on his un-shovled drive way If you sell it as an hourley service youll never get past the 20 dollar drive ways 

I can go but I wont .Put your figure's together and you may be shocked.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

ih82plow you have made some great points , I have been at this a while and have most if not all of those provisions in my contract. All of our commercial pay a retainer , we work off their money , not ours. I have had accounts that were plowed by someone else while under contract, they were sent a bill . 
We get paid a minimum amount even If we get no snow at all for the season. 

It sounds like you have had quite a bit of experience in business and customer service.


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

Matt 

A sincere thank you for the comment. Business is my passion. I love being able to help others become more profitable in business and see them pay them self and there family what they actually deserve. It’s easy to work long countless hours in your company because you feel it’s yours. And I find a lot of company owners get excited that if they raise there price the will lose some customers and they will have less work to do. Imagine that concept afraid to do less work and make more profits. 

I just wished some one years ago would have YELLED THIS IN MY face every time they seen me instead of me having to learn this the hard way.

We use a term at work of SHOOT THE MULE or we say WE HAVE TO FIRE THE CUSTOMER. If we have a customer who is constantly disputing charges or deciding on what he should pay us we FIRE HIM and explain why. I will not negotiate a quoted job after the job is complete because the customer feels it was easier then the customer thought it would be or it took less time then they thought it would take.
Its better for me to take the write off and send him to one of my competitors to suck the life and drain his blood and his profits. A lot of the customer say NO I WANT TO PAY YOU BUT ONLY A PORTION OF WHAT YOU QUOTED ME I explain pay me what you feel is fair and honorable we take there disputed payment and write off the balance and never service them again. And it funny when they contact you some 18 months later looking for service and you remind them of what transpired They are so used to stiffing service companies they forget who they stiffed We don’t we document all of our transactions
I understand not all customer want to pay a proper fee to a company they want to just pay the cheapest guy. We are never the cheapest guy but guaranteed we are always the best value. 

Thanks again for the kind words.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

Ih8toplow I would like to hear more of your input , I reread your post and reasiled In my cost calculations that I did leave something out. I have been in business for over 20 years and I am still learning.

Now you hit an interesting point , about 15 years ago another businessman (and a friends father) told me to do a few things , first was to raise my prices , Do only the highest quality work, If you dont want to work for someone dont , either grow the business real big or stay real small . His biggest emphasis was if you decide to go big getting thru mid size is the problem . I took that advice and stayed small and make good money


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

ih82plow,

I have quickbooks, I'm sure your well aware of the software program. I have been tracking everything from a simple toll to get to my service guy to the mileage to get oil and filters for the equipment. Another thing, I'm not lowballing or anything. According to my research I'm not the cheapest nor am I the most expensive. I already decided to "drop" one of my lawn customers b/c every week it was "can you do this and can you do that." I simply (and nicely) told him that time equals money and "to do this and to do that will cost you this." He got upset and I simply told him to find someone else. Funny thing is, leaves are now matted to the ground b/c I guess he couldn't find anyone in his price range. Sorry, I'm rambling.

I also look at it like this. It you go to store A and claim that store B has the identical product and store A decides to match or beat the competitors price aren't you going to go back to that store? Can't you apply this principle to services? However, I can see your point about providing a cheap service. I have quite a number of relatives who have owned or still own service businesses. Well, wouldn't ya know that the one uncle who has a plumbing business told me "Don't start out cheap b/c word gets around that you are cheap and people would expect that." That is exactly what you just said. LOL

Again, I'm not sure the best method to start out (my lawn business that is) Basically, I started with providing 2 clients with discounted prices for giving my company a shot. I now have received three customers from the first and another three (four if you count the dropped one) from the second (at the normal, non-discounted price). Granted, my prices for 1 & 2 are break even but now most of the lawns are right next to each other and the cost of traveling back and forth from the shop to the residence is saved or turned into income. I guess I need to change my thinking a little. thanks for the advice and I agree with the previous guy, keep em comin'


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

AS QUOTED 
I also look at it like this. It you go to store A and claim that store B has the identical product and store A decides to match or beat the competitors price aren't you going to go back to that store? Can't you apply this principle to services? 


NO YOU ARE NOT SELLING A PRODUCT WE ARE SELLING A SERVICE

That what makes a service company so much better Alot of added service you can pprovide to your customers cost you no more to deliver then a regular visit.So it cost you no more money.A product is a product our commodities are our service.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

thanks and happy holidays to you


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

ih82plow,

Lots of useful info here for me. I originated this post to decide whether to purchase a new truck and plow. I was trying to project costs and what I would have to charge just to cover equipment and other related snow removal expenses. The time concept still eludes me but is one of the biggest factors in figuring numbers on any of this. The new truck will be used for seasonal plowing (NH), trailering a compact tractor to pile residential snow if we get a winter something like last winter(again seasonal). Transporting tractor in spring to till small and large gardens(seasonal). For use in cabinet shop type woodworking business(part time-winter. Full time after I get occupancy on summer house project). I need it a truck this summer as I am working on a post and beam home for my self, except if I haven't saved enough money from my seasonal work to pay for the monthly truck payment. Then, I will take on small jobs like interior finish, stairs etc. to make sure the payment for loan and insurance is covered until next plow season.

Because of the broken up projected work. I don't have a clue as to how to come up with a plan except let's see how it goes; one day at a time. This feels risky and it is(yes, some would say foolish). I can write a plan for the winter months. As soon as summer comes I'm cooked. My wife does work to pay most of the bills while I've been working on the home project. The truck issue however is not in the family budget however. The upside is that I will be able to turn all my building related debt into an equity line of credit or a reg. home mortgage as soon as I get occupancy, planned for next fall.

The way I see it is: this winter snow removal business can help to pay for a needed tool for the rest of my year's needs; the truck.
I certainly am not doing it for fun. I should make money(Profit) on the first driveway I push and the last.(sure, I'm apt to do a drive for the truly needy). To do this I need to know my costs as you have stated. My question is aimed at equipment cost: if I take out a 6 yr truck loan for say $24k, is my yearly expense for this equipment $4k or is it divided some other number of years. If the Loan for new equipment is $24k but I put $8k down is my equipment cost $32k divided by a 6 yr loan or it's useful life, say 10 years. For some of us this plow truck wears many hats, it may be our only ride, as in my case and so it doesn't seem very clearcut when only business related parameters are included in the formula. I apologize if you already covered this. I'm not sure a business plan can be written for this crazy scenario that is my life. In other words, because I'm working for myself but not paying myself on this home project there are no fine lines between business use and personal use. You must be cringing by now so I'll take my leave.

Thanks, DeereGuy


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

deereguy 

I have re read all of your post several time.And I am slightly confused.It seems your not getting the plow to start a plowing company your actually need a new truck/vechicle for your projects/moving your machine/building your home and your thinking if I get a new truck (that you definatley need) and add a $3,400.00 plow can I make up this years payments of the truck by putting on a plow and then figuring that the free labor you are suppling for plowing is actually how your earning the new truck.I have nothing against swett equity to earn things but if your doing it as a buiness venture you need a better plan. 

Am I Correct???

Take plowing out of the equation 

Are you still going to get a new truck? would you still buy the same HD truck to move the equiptment?How much are you paying now to have the equiptment moved how much would you save by having a truck that could move your machine,How much more work could you sell for the machine being able to move your machine to a job site on a moments notice?

If you cant set up accounts to plow have you called any large plowing companies and asked the going rate they pay for a man and a truck to plow as a sub contractor?Make sure if you do make a deal with them plowing there contract properties you are covered under there insurance policy of youll have to purchase your own.


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

To make it easyer

With out plowing how much would you pay for a truck to replace the one you have now that needs replacing?


With a plow how much are you going to pay with the added cost of a insurance policy so you can plow with out the liability of losing everything you own.

subtract the two and then the difference between the 2 is the number you have to work with.Then you have to decide how long you plan on keeping the truck.remember the longer you keep the truck the sweeter the numbers look but you have to add in repairs and maintnence.Notice I said the sweeter the numbers LOOK not actually are 

I find a better life cycle for me is a 5 year problem free and exspence free ownership by protecting the vehicle with a manufactorer warrenty in effect the whole time I own the truck 

Good luck


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

Lastley 

I think with the economy on the upswing anybody thinking of replacing vehicles had better make a move.I think the fun of the 0% financing and rebates and incentives and dealers giving away vechicles at there cost and them making there money on there hold back will be a thing of the past as we get into the first 1/4 of the new year.

remember any 03 still out there will officialy become last years models in about 7 days still anew truck but its considered last years model (the dealers get incentives from the manufacturors for getting rid of them.the sales men even getter a better commisition for getting rid of them.)


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

ih82plow,

Sorry for not getting back but have been busy both at the dealerships and with the holiday(read two young children). Anyway, I am really considering purchasing an 04 2500HD gas Chevy Extra cab(read children) short bed. The dealers are making it difficult to look at used with an avg. new truck at $500. below dealer invoice. Chevy also will contribute $900. to upfit a plow until next week. The word is that all incentives will be cut next quarter but I don't know how reliable that info is. I also have about $400. in GM points from a credit card to add to it after I make my best deal. So even though a payment in the range of $480. for 72 mths after I put $3k down will be a tough payment for me, I may make the plunge. I haven't yet checked the cost of added insurance for plowing but had priced a similar rider for doing tractor/loader type work last year and if I recall, it was about $600. extra.

As for your questions;

I need another full size truck no matter what. For personal trans., for my woodworking business, for my homebuilding project. In addition, if the truck I purchase is big enough I could make additional $ doing work with my tractor. I also have a bandsaw mill to cut my timbers after I log them off my woodlot. I currently don't have a way to deliver wood product from my mill that has value but that I don't have a need for. Having purchased a lot of equipment for my home timberframe project It would seem reasonable to also try to make some additional $ with it if possible. A change of pace just to get out of the shop on occasion would probably be nice. (When I finish building, Cabinetmaking is my planned full time occupation.) These are ideals. My absolute basic needs would be a truck like a used tundra which could perform basic work functions but would not be towing my tractor or plowing. I read this as an $18k min invest for good used low miles Tundra. It would not allow for a cash business in the winter or spring season. It would be little more than transportation as is (was)my old Toyota PU. For another $10k I see more potential for earnings. I don't know if this will be profit or simply a paid for truck to further my future woodworking business needs. I don't know the correct way to look at this.

So the difference between $18k (used 01 Tundra) and $32k(new chevy 2500HD w/ fisher v) is $14k over say 10 yrs. I Don't mind an older vehicle if Iv'e had it since new and know it's idiosyncrasies. For this calc let's say 8 yrs. The added today cost is $1750. per yr for the added snow plowing benefit and versatile 3/4 ton size. I guess we also need to add interest @ 5.9% and insurance and added fuel cost. Is this correct so far?

I have no idea how much additional warranties could cost. 
GM is currently warrantied for 3 yrs 30K mi or for me about 2 yrs.


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

your still missing some math here.

How much is the tundra,what repairs will it need,what would the finance rate be for you on a used truck? what will the sales tax be on the truck,then how much is it to insure.that is you cost for this truck

Now onto the new Chevy all the same questions. that is the cost difference between the trucks.

Defiantly don't visit the dealer any more.If you have found the dealer you want to use if you purchase the truck.And the sales man contacts you ask him a question on the truck that he has to go outside to the truck to inspect it then come back in.Ask him what type of tires are on it and what size they are.then tell him to call you back between a certain time maybe two hours from the time he called you with only a 15 minute window.the reason for this is it keeps you on his mind all day making sure he calls you in the proper time or he will miss speaking to you and his chance to sell the truck .Sounds silly but the strategy here is to have the sales man invest allot of time with you in this deal.so after he has worked his but off for the sale there is no way he is going to let you walk out on him.You are his deal and he want your name up on the sold truck board so he can get his commission.Now normally when I am purchasing a product I never look for the lowest price But on a product like a truck you already have decided on the better product so now you get the best price you can.It not like buying a TV where one is 200 and one is 300 and you getting the less expensive one because its a cheaper product.And as for the service the dealership is going to provide .the sales men don't mark you in there computer as a guy to give bad service to because you worked a tight deal on them.Anyways way I have allot to say on how to properly work a deal for a vehicle but we will get into it more when you decide if in fact you NEED to get a new truck with a plow.Did you find out the going rate for a driver and a truck with a plow on it in your area yet?


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

I thought the point of this thread was to try and determine the break even point of a new vehicle and not how to find the best deal on a new truck.

Many facts will be needed in determining a break even point on a new piece of equipment. 1) Is the new vehicle being used exclusively for snow removal or will it be used for personal use in addition to snow removal or will snow removal increase the usefulness of a vehicle that would otherwise not be used during the winter months. These factors will help one estimate an annual depreciation. How long will the vehicle be used before disposal(estimated life of the vehicle) 2) The above will also determine the increase wear and tear on the vehicle above and beyond its normal use, this will also determined the increase in maintenance necessary to keep the vehicle in good condition. 3) The difference in vehicle insurance when a plow is added. 4) The cost of commercial liability insurance. 5)How much snow removal revenue will the vehicle generate on average.

Caution there are IRS limits and rules to some of these factors and tax benefits associated with others, but it is possible to determine a break even point.

I have made all these calculations. This is why I plow with older vehicles. Everyone situation is different. But I bet some people would be surprised at how little money they are actually making if the looked at the real picture. There is more to the story than just making the payments.


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

JMR

I agree with you on your points but getting the best price on the truck is actually the jump off point to determine the cost.

From the fact finding of this topic I pretty much assume this fellow is not purchasing a plow to to open up a full plowing business.But he is asking if he gets a plow on a new truck that HE NEEDS TO PURCHASE can he off set the added cost of the plow(the plow,its maintenance,insurance,ect,ect,ect).

If you read Thu the entire post you'll see we have covered all of these questions and the facts we found are He defiantly need a new vehicle,He defiantly has a ton over other uses for this vehicle,he can actually because of his tractor can increase the usefulness of his tractor by having this heavy duty truck to get his tractor around.And may be able to billable hour out of having a way to move his tractor from place to place.

I think we are down to the understanding that he is not doing it solely for profits ,But he using the plow as a way to generate money to make it possible for him to be able to afford a new truck for his other uses.And when you do the math above that I have noted

*your still missing some math here.*

I think this guy will have all the numbers he needs to substantiate the purchase of this new truck easily.Figuring he is basing his labor on not trying to get rich but actually sweat equity to afford this truck


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

JMR

So you know I believe every venture should be picked apart to make sure it a profitable venture.And I think I have covered that above 

But I also believe in sweat equity to acquire things.And I think thats what this post is all about 

The first plow vehicle I owned on my own was an old gravely tractor that I earned by scrubbing the bottom side and the engine bay a 64 GTO that a fellow was restoring with a brush and gunk for a whole week after school.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

ih82plow,

This post has taken a few turns but I think you are correct that all these things written have something to do with how I should proceed. Unfortunately the pressure has started to mount if I intend to purchase a new GM. I really have only a few days to complete this transaction because of the way the incentives will react after the 1st but more importantly, I haven't found a lot of trucks that I would be willing to purchase. On the lot I'm looking at now all of the extra cab LS models are going quickly. What seems to be happening is that as time goes on only LT's w/ leather are left. I have been to 3 GM dealers this week. This last one isn't as honest (I asked to see the "actual" dealer invoice on my third visit and as soon as I started to look it over. The salesman stated that they had made a mistake and had forgot to give the $500. under price. They also added a $245. storage box under the back seat to boost their profits. This is not a stripped model by any means but for family use will make a very comfortable truck. However, the internet salesman has spent a substantial amount of time with me and has actually tagged the truck not to be sold. It has been on his lot only 2 wks according to the invoice.
Of course he asked for $ down but I refused. I could go looking out of state or get another LS delivered to a better dealership but that would sort of lock me in without even looking at or driving the vehicle. I think This salesman could come down a few more hundred but I don't believe he will. He expected I'm sure to close the deal on Christmas Eve morn. but that's when I flushed out the $500. error. I left it that I would contact him today but had not agreed to anything. I have not been an easy sell. And am not emotionally involved in this purchase. I could walk a way and purchase elsewhere or not at all and it really wouldn't bother me. The amt of the purchase is the scary part. This is why I am trying to work some numbers. To see that, I can do this and create income to pay for a portion of this major purchase.

note: I haven't found one 03 model Ford or Chevy to be sold as new.

One of your questions deals with "the snowplowing business" concept. I would like to engage in this business because it lends itself to my lifestyle. I have control of my workday and night hours except for weekday mornings when I get my kids ready for school and transport them and a couple of hours in the evening when we do homework and I get them to bed. I also like plowing and the almost instant pay off. Compared to building a piece of furniture that may take a month or more, this is instant billable time. 

On to the numbers:

BTW NH does not charge sales tax or income tax so there is added benefit if I buy as least 6 mths before I move to ME where by I would owe them 5%, a savings of $1450. on a $29K purchase
made now.

01 Tundra extra cab 4x4 w/ 40k-60k mi. $18,000.
reg insurance estimated 1,100.
maint (it's a Toyota) 500. per yr
------------
Total $19,600. 

Used auto rates would be around 7.9% I think for 5 yrs.

extra income from purchase of truck would be $0.0


04 Chevy 2500HD LS extra cab $29,000.
Fisher v for drives less $900. upfit 3,400.
reg insur. est. 1,500.
plowing and landscape insur ? estimated 800.
maintain on new vehicle est. 30k warr. 750.
-----------
Total $35,450.

new rate would be 5.9% or better for 6 yrs

20 drives with 10 snow storms with an avg. of 2 pushes per storm with a avg. cost of $30 per push would be: $12,000.

12K less thes yrly cost = $8,950. 

extra gross $ from plowing and loader and tilling ?

12 payments of est. $485.=$5,820 per year in truck&plowpayment

This leaves $3130. in est. gross profit. Less labor = neg. numbers but earns me a good useful new vehicle


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

ih82plow,

I forgot to add the fuel used etc for plowing. This number could be substantial. Also, I would have to keep this up for the life of the loan hopefully paying if off early if business got good. The lines got all jumbled up but I think it's still readable. I am going to make a decision this morn. but not without SWMBO. Thanks


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I just spoke to my Insurance agent and my numbers were about right $825. for a one man snow plow business with 17k or less in receipts. This is for $500k general liability and covers accidents after the fact. It does have a $500 deductable per accident so the they are not replacing any mailboxes. I would have to have commercial truck insurance which is about 30% more than conventional. $1500. is about right. My tractor work would not be covered but would need an additional policy for landscape work?

DeereGuy


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## ih82plow (Dec 23, 2003)

I think your numbers are off a bit.

But even with out your numbers 

Just understanding what swett equity is I think this is an excellent way to get this truck.

Just so you know I now only plow for my own properties .But I grew up plowing since a child.

I have never been thru a snow season yet since I have been able to drive, with out my own plow truck.And I can tell you plowing has afforded me alot of things.

Good luck and I think this truck is a good investment for you betewwen you house,plowing,the tractor,and cabinet making good luck and be safe.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

ih82plow,

Thanks for taking the time to correspond and yes I am always optimistic at the start. Not a bad way to be. Thanks again,

DeereGuy


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

Deereguy,

If you go for the Tundra, check that rear seat. It's one of the most uncomfortable I've ever sat in and almost impossible to safely secure car/booster seats there if you need those. Not sure you'd want to stick a plow on that one.


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## KatWalk (Oct 12, 2002)

*Buy the new Chevy*

Deereguy, you have had the benefit of some great, sound, "free" advice here. Take advantage of it. The first truck I bought "New" was a 98 chevy reg cab and the rate in 98 was 12.9%. You have shown with your toyota that you have an ability to hold onto equipment for its usable life. Jan 2004....the new year and a new pricing structure. He have to add into your current labor rate somehow to recover the "added" overhead of the new truck costs. If you are able to bill out $15 per man hour, make it a goal to bill out every hour at $20 for the year 2004. If you are able to bill out just 1000 hours at the additional $5 per hour, thats $5000. If your truck payment is $500 per month times 12 months...equals $6000. I feel that plowing this year you could make up the $1000 "JUST" for the truck payment. My guess is that you must already have some kind of insurance. Going back to the $5 per hour and 1000 hours statement.....this is actually a low figure. Look at 50 weeks in a year(2 weeks vacation) at 40 hours a week is 2000 hours. If you could bill out all those hours at the additional $5 it would be $10,000 and would easily cover truck payment and related expenses. I'm near salisbury...what Gm dealers are you looking at. Hope some of this helps.


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## Sidebuz (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm a little confused DeereGuy. Now I'm from IN, fairly close to Lake Michigan. So we get a fair amount of lake effect snow. I figure on about 5-10 snow storms that result in a single push per storm. I believe you said 10 snow storms, 2 pushes per storm. Correct? I question the 2 pushes per storm. I haven't had that happen yet in three years of pushing... I guess what I'm getting at, plan on the bare minimum snow and budget from that. I budget on 5 pushes, and I'm starting to think we are going to stuggle to get that much this year!! 

By my calculations, using your numbers, you looking at $8,850.00 per yr. cost . 
$475.00 truck payment (72 mo, %5.75, $3000 down, including the snow plow being financed)
$2300 insurance (everthing- truck, the rider, etc)
$450 plates (guess)
$400 repairs (ave. for the life of the truck if you keep it that long-another guess).
Fuel cost?? Don't know how much you drive. But if you get the 6.0 liter engine, figure about 11MPG (that is what mine runs)

I hope you can afford it and best of luck. In my book, too steep for me...


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Deereguy,

Just a word of caution. I started a lawn service/plowing business this year. I have visited with accountants, attorney's, and insurance agents/agencies and they all told me to make sure I kept my business completely separate from personal affairs. This comes in the form of documentation, basically. They, nor I, are not saying you can't use your truck for both personal and business related work but to make sure to have a "business cap" and "personal cap" and use them at the appropriate time. The reason for this is....

Let's say you are using your tractor for a job and you are insured commercially have all the appropriate permits etc... If a bad accident occurs and let's say Miss Millie was injured she will turn around and file a claim against you, sue you, etc. If the settlement or whatever it is called is for an amount greater than what your insurance can provide. Assuming you had more than adequate coverage but you also had other claims against you...If poor' ole' Aunt Millie can prove that your personal/business affairs were closely related than she may be granted permission (or whatever the appropriate terminology is) to go after your personal assets. This scared the crapola out of me, I don't want anyone taking my house out from underneath my family.

Sorry if this was off of the posted topic or if I'm just chewing your ear off and you already know this, but I thought it was worth mentioning considering your situation.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I'm back, and in my parking spot sits a brand new Chevy LS 2500HD extra cab w/ tow and plow pkges and a few other non essentials . Jan 6th I will be getting the plow frame installed. Today I spent the afternoon at my insurance guy's office. (Now I'm scared.) 

KatWalk, I ended up buying from Portsmouth but would have much rather have bought from Dover. I also looked at Blake in Hampton where I live. They would have been my second choice. Portsmouth had the vehicle I wanted on the lot and that is the only reason I shopped there. Because this is the first yr to be able to write off an entire Commercial vehicle in 1 year trucks were flying out of the lots last week. It was tough to find a truck in the configuration that I wanted. Dover had all longbeds so I couldn't shop them. I caught the ptsmouth sales person in more than one nontruth. I got home at 9 pm on the 26th with my truck only to realize that the power folding mirror only closed half way (an option that I paid for but would have been happier without) so 1st thing the next day I called him to let him know and he basically said that I had checked out the vehicle on the lot the night before and that it must have been working. He wouldn't even respond to whether it would be fixed. Anyways, I went back and talked to service today and they ordered a new mirror and said it wouldn't be a problem. I basically by passed the salesman. Can you imagine? This month they have stated they would sell all trucks at least $500 under invoice. I had to request the actual dealer invoice and not the vague paper they originally gave me only to have the salesman tell me that they made a mistake when I started to look over the actual. He took $500. right off before I caught the mistake. Basically this is how all the negotiations took place. He handed me a survey on the way out to mail in but had taken the liberty of filling it out for me. I think I did alright but can't help but feel ripped off just from dealing with the tactics. Even the finance person was questionable, he wouldn't search for the best interest rate. I got 5.99%for 6 yrs. He didn't even wait for a reply(they were closed) he knew that they would be happy to get me. I would have been happy to wait another day. Maybe they get some kind of kick back or maybe he negotiates a better rate and takes a % of the difference. I have excellent credit and was expecting a little better. Portsmouth is a dealership you really have to watch your back. I did get the $900. upfit rebate on the plow and a Linex spray in was $100. cheaper though them than on my own. I did cash in some GM points but still spent a ton of cash. What I didn't research was the extended warranties so I was unprepared for that decision. "But I like my truck!"

DJL,
Commercial auto Insurance was $1500. A 6 month snowplow business policy was $825. but I opted for an $1800. combo 12 mth $500k policy to cover plowing with my truck and my tractor. Landscape tractor work, and most importantly coverage for my cabinet business to work in peoples houses. Yes, I'm covered after completion on all accts. I'm sure the risk you're talking about is real I just haven't enough information yet to know if I'm truly protected. And,I have no more money.

Sidebuz,
I hope we get more here than your dismal forecast predicts. The Nor'easters we get can really pile the snow in a hurry. Of course, we've had some dry winters. I'm going to look for data for the last few yrs this week so I can figure some calculation on season contract amts. I think that a typical storm here would require 2 pushes 6-12" and even if the amounts are only 6" if it snows slowly for 36 hrs people still need to get out to go to work and then 1 cleanup pass. Having said this, I am guessing, because I've never plowed with a truck before. Only plowing I've done is with a bucket loader and that's possible with almost any amount. This is new ground for me. Lastly, Gas mileage. I looked for info on the 6 liter and found nothing, so now you tell me. I have a computer on the dash(another gadget that I really didn't want to pay for) which tell average miles per gal but also instant real time MPG its pretty cool. On the highway doing 68MPH the thing reads from 15-19MPG but at slow speeds gets awful numbers like 3-9MPG going under 40MPH. 

Thanks all. I will be doing the marketing thing this week but won't actually take accts until I get my plow. If you have any bad thoughts about a Fisher V let me know. Fisher is king here so it's either that or the x-blade.

DeereGuy


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## KatWalk (Oct 12, 2002)

*Congratulations!!*

Deereguy, there is alot involved in a decision like this and the toughest part is actually pulling the trigger. If I were you I would be concerned with the 6.0 litre. The toyota 4 banger did the job but imagine the power at your foot now!!!!! hahaha The truck has more than enough power to push 8"-12" of normal (not slushy) snow if the customers would allow it. Going out twice is probably a good idea. Good luck with your new truck....it will be like a dream plowing with an 04', full power including mirrors!! Lets get some snow now!! Happy new year.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

*Congrats!!!!*

Deereguy,

We have very similar trucks. I was stuck with the auto fold mirrors and an upgraded radio b/c that's all they could find me (so they said). I, fortunately, was able to get 0% for 48 which is pretty nice. However, I have the 8.1L which is a bear of an engine. Ain't no problem pushing snow with that thing, although I only have a 7'-6" plow on the front. So I have to deal with hitting the leftovers during the bigger storms.

As far as insurance, I wasn't trying to scare you or make you think twice. Sorry about that. All I am saying is that I was told to make sure that I keep business and personal separate. Like when I sign letters to customers. It is a simple thing like putting my name AND title, which is the owner, on the letter stating that I'm acting for and in the interest of the company. It's little things like that that were recommended. Consider it a form of CYA. Hopefully, more than likely it will never come up. I live in NJ, the most sue happy state!!

As far a gas mileage goes. The 6.0L GMC with tow/snow plow packages that my business has. He gets between 10-14mpg on the highway running around 60-75 MPH. 10mpg is when he is pulling the dump trailer weighting in about 5-6 ton. You'll love the power of that thing.

Another note, like I said I have the 8.0L. Talk about a gas eater, 8-9 mpg so far. I installed an Extang rollable cover on the 6' bed and highways I'm seeing 10+ mpg. The way I figure, the 300 bucks I spent on that will pay itself off over the life of the loan. In addition, it keeps my salt, calcium, etc... dry for when/if I need it.

Lots of luck with the new truck!!!!!


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## Sidebuz (Aug 10, 2003)

Congrats Deereguy! I wish you the best with your new truck. Plan on about 11 MPG on average. Less if you push snow or pull that tractor around, more if there is a lot highway driving. Now that the "easy" part is done, now comes the real fun: landing accounts...


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Thanks Guys, I was hoping to do better than 11 MPG. I'm wondering if I could pick up a couple of MPG on the highway with a cover? I like the ACCESS covers although they are pricey for a soft tonneau.

300 Horsepower! I'm liking it very much and am having a hard time keeping the break-in regimen, low throttle, low mph etc. for this new engine.( I'm used to about 80HP!)

Landing accts: Here we have a huge gray area that I think will only be solved in the doing. I won't actually advertise until my plow is on in another week. I am trying to decide on a dba name instead of my own name which is what I use in the woodworking end of business but don't have enough info yet to decide what would be more beneficial tax wise and liability wise. I'm planning to have some of those magnetic truck door signs made up just for plowing. Do any of you know if this is bad for the paint or is there another temp. but professional looking way to ad signage to a vehicle. This is actually a good time to get new customers with the warm weather upon us here in the Northeast. I'm going to make up some fliers and maybe put an ad in the local paper as well but I don't dare promise anything til that plow is attached.

I have a question for anyone with a gas auto job like mine. Do you ever plow in 1st or 2nd or alway D. The reason I ask is that the gas pedal is super sensitive. Just going over a uneven gravel road is enough to get the truck feeling jerky because the pedal is so responsive. I 'll get used to it but I let a friend drive it today and he couldn't believe how it behaved if you weren't careful with the throttle and he's owned Chevy trucks in the past. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just quick! Remind me not to let my wife drive it.

Lastly, I don't want to beat a dead horse on this site but does anyone have first hand info relating to the down pressure capability of the fisher V plows. Does it back drag as well as the X-blade? Is this feature a true benefit?

Thanks


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## badranman (Dec 22, 2003)

*RE magnetic signs*

My friend had a few made up for his chev 1500. The ones on the doors would blow off at 60 mph, he lost a couple. Once he put silicone around the edges they didn't blow off but kinda defeated the purpose of them then. The one on the tailgate trapped water and caused it to rust in some spots under the sign.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Sounds like I need to find another option. Perhaps some stick-on material that would be removable in a few months. I'm going to call Charettes in MA, I bet they would know.


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## badranman (Dec 22, 2003)

I use vinyl lettering and heat it with a heat gun to remove it. Haven't tried this to lettering that is a year old yet though, that might be tough. The guy that makes my signs says that's all he uses to remove any lettering he has to. That and some goo gone or wd-40 for the residue if any.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Skip the down pressure question. I misread the literature. Must have been having flashbacks from my loader manual.. dup... 

I did see the plow shop today and the guy convinced me to go with a straight blade instead of the v, must've seen me comin' as he didn't drop his price very much.


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## KatWalk (Oct 12, 2002)

Deereguy, what was the deciding factor that convinced you to go straight blade? I know that the V's are alot tougher to put together!! Langs Corner Garage in Rye??


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

Deereguy,

If you got your plow from Langs, you can rest assured that you paid what everyone else does. Very straight shooter, good to do business with. No one "saw you coming."


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I wanted to do business at Langs, Portsmouth Chevy a had a fight with him last year(according to Paul)and they no longer do business with him so I'm forced to do business with J&B in Lee, NH. Because of the GM upfit credit Portsmouth has to set it up.
J$B's quote for the V was $4300, in line w/ Lang's price, but I had priced out the X-Blade a few weeks ago at both EW Sleeper, Manchester and Langs and got a price of about $3800, Which is $300-$400. more than the standard 8'. J&B's price is $4200. A $400. extra profit for him. Wiping out half of the GM upfit credit. Or enough to purchase a needed tool box for the bed. 

I'm going by Lang's tomorrow if they're open and price the X-Blade again. If it comes in at $3800. for sure I'm going to got to Portmouth and ***** until they set up the appt. and payment to Langs. He's also so much closer. It really just makes sense for me to deal with him.

On a more sour note: I been noticing oil drip in my parking spot and crawled underneath to find a good coating of fresh oil on just about everything. (I thought the the oil smell was just the new engine burning off normal new surface oils) Anyways, I waited only 3 mins. yesterday N Year's Eve at 3PM, even though they were swamped, for them to put it on a lift. They think it's only a gasket connecting the oil cooler line. If it's the line itself, they will keep the truck for three or 4 days and I will miss appt for my plow frame and Linex install. Two steps forward three steps back.

On a lighter note I have a potential commercial acct. as the MGR of the retail operation I visited Yesterday is very unhappy with current contractor.


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## BWinkel (Oct 23, 2003)

Deereguy
Sounds like your getting hosed on the plows. I purchased a F250 from Clair in Saco ME in August. I had an 8'6" Fisher V installed by Weirs in Arundel for $3100 less $1000 for the upfit rebate. Ended up with the plow for $2100 installed. For comparison, I checked on an installed price for the same plow from a local Fisher dealer and was quoted $3880 installed.


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## KatWalk (Oct 12, 2002)

*BWinkel....August versus Dec/Jan*

$3100 cash and carry would have been a good price never mind installed. Did if have to do wiith the fact that it was August? I have priced a few and they are all around $4400-$4500. BWinkel, how do you like the V-Plow? I bought a 8' straight from J+B.....he is a good guy up there as well. Cash and carry and I had done something wrong with the wiring harness and drove up there and he had a guy look at it without even hesitation. The kid fixed it in about 5 seconds and said see ya later.


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## BWinkel (Oct 23, 2003)

KatWalk
It may well be that it was August and not in the middle of the season. I still think I could do better than $4000 for a V right now. I love the V. Don't think I will ever go back to a straight blade. I have had good luck buying trucks in late August. It seems the dealers are trying to move the previous model year off the lots.


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## BWinkel (Oct 23, 2003)

*Plow prices*

By the way, the dealer that sold me the truck negotiated the price with the plow installer. When I shop for a truck, I do everything by phone and fax. I have the dealers include the price of the plow with their proposal. I have found quite a spread in what the dealers will charge to have a plow installed. I consider it all part of the package.


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

Deereguy, 

Please to mis interpret this, as I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but in my opinion and experience, Portsmouth Chevy is one of the worst places to do business. I'm not saying they're all bad people, I'm saying in comparison to other dealerships, they come up very short. The upsides are that it will be close to you when you move if you need warrenty work and that you bought a good truck. Watch and check everything they do. At Lang's, I would take Paul at his word.

You may be able to shop around and pay a little less for a plow, especially if it's in the summer, even Lang's is less money then. If you're going to be in Berwick, he may be the closest dealer. This can work in your favor is something breaks and you need a fix or part quick. I don't think a worrying about a couple hundred here or there for a plow should be the over riding concern in my humble opinion. Remember that these guys are small business owners such as yourself. There are variables that go along with their prices.

As for your possible new account, may I make two suggestions?
1. Ask whether or not he's tried to work out a possible solution with his current contractor. Your getting into a business where the customer is far from always being right.
2. Let him know that you are moving and will not be available next year.

Happy New Year and good luck to you!


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

If you read some of the previous posts I have stated a few times that Portsmouth is not my favorite place but until I get my truck corrected and the 'we owes" taken care of, I am forced to deal with them. Will other dealers work on my truck under warranty work or under the extended warranty I purchased from Portfolio. Does any one know?

I think $400. in addition to the profit amt everyone else makes is robbery. He knows that it's paid for on my truck loan and feels like he can take all of the amount no matter what I buy. Shrewd character!

He also had no problem tearing down Lang's in a severe way. I have heard nothing but good things about lang's from actual customers.

Hampton plow, concerning the commercial contract. I'm not going to lowball or steal an acct. If the proprietor is really that unhappy and is paying an amt appropriate for good service than why would I go in and unsell myself? I will disclose that this a one yr gig. I will try to find out more but thats about it. Is there a hampton code I should know about? I hate politics!


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

KatWalk, I have zero experience with a blade. Up til know I have only used a bucket. I know someone with a V and he loves it. Every dealer (truck or plow) I've spoken with asks the same question. Why the heck would you want one of those? Three weeks of that and I have been second guessing myself. I really don't have any experience to draw on for this decision. So when someone in the know tells me he would always go for the straight I am swayed. I also had to rethink the weight issue. My chevy is not a front leaf spring F350. According to J&B the V on my truck in the swept back V position would just clear the ground when traveling. Again, I only have opinions like this to draw on.


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

Deereguy, No "code" or politics exist that I'm aware of. In my previous post, I was in no way hinting to "low balling." 

My point is that you may want to find out why your potential client was unable to work it out with his guy. It may be that he was unreliable. Or it could be that the client had unreasonable expectations. Or something completely different. 

If someone fires a carpenter from a wood working project, then calls you. I know you're not going to just jump right in there. You're going to get as much info as you can before you commit. If the previous guy was a hack, then you know you'll be able to meet the customer's expectations. If everything the customer says about the previous carpenter is similar to the way things are done, his work is good and it's similar to your quality, you're probably going to think twice about taking the job.

Again, good luck to you and enjoy that truck!


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## BWinkel (Oct 23, 2003)

Deerguy
Are you going with a 8'HD or an x blade?


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Hampton plow, good points. You can bet that if I were to take on a woodworking related project, especially mid project, I would suspect the client to be guilty of being one of those unrealistic, know-it-alls who actually doesn't have a clue until he proved me wrong(the kind of client that you have to estimate double because you know your in for a ride). So yes, point taken. I will feel out the problem and ascertain whether I want to get involved. My sense is that he feels he is paying top dollar for the service and the last good storm his mail box was so blocked with snow that it took him 4 hrs(so he says) to shovel it out. He was also unsatisfied w/ two large inside corners that were never cleared because by the time the fellow showed up, back-dragging 10" was impossible. He was unsatisfied on a few different levels. In my opinion, no matter what the guy was being paid, he shouldn't have blocked the mailbox with a pile. I'm going to stop by there tomorrow and ask a few more questions including how much the guy charges them if he'll tell me.

BWinkle, I was going for the x-blade. If it doesn't work well at least it looks cool. But seriously, I could still have them mount the Fisher V. Originally, it was what I ordered. I spoke with a fellow tonight who has been plowing for 30 yrs. He's running a V on the same truck I have and loves it. I don't know why all the plow installers are putting the V down. Is it more hassle to install? Is there more profit on a straight? Are they just old school as they tell me? I really don't know what to think at this point. The x-blade doesn't use shoes so early season gravel drives may be a problem. does it stack snow the same? I won't be plowing roads as I can't find insurance. I'm only insured for drives and parking lots. I can't even do subdivision roads. 

Anybody out there who would like to pontificate on the virtues of the x-blade?


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## BWinkel (Oct 23, 2003)

Deerguy
I haven't tried the x blade so I can't tell you much abot it. It looks like it will backdrag well. I'm not sure how it will do on unfrozen packed gravel. The agressive angle may have a tendency to dig in. Something you might want to consider since packed gravel driveways out number asphalt driveways in Maine.


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

DeereGuy

I would go with the V plow. When I get my Chevy Dump I will be putting on a Boss V. Everyone I talked to that has a V plow loves it. They say if you need to put snow in one spot the scoop helps and saves their time by 50%. If your thinking about getting into commercial parking lots this might be one thing to consider. Also with the wet heavy snow we sometimes get, it will be cake if you use the V opposed to a straight blade.


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## KatWalk (Oct 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DeereGuy _
> 
> Anybody out there who would like to pontificate on the virtues of the x-blade? [/B]


Pontificate huh......let me think about that one for a minute. No thank you. I would not like to speak about the virtues of the x-blade in a pompous or dogmatic way. hahahahaha  I had to look that one up!!!!!


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

Deereguy
Have you decided which plow you are going with?


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Avalancheplow,

Yes, I went with the 8' X-blade. It was in stock and the V would have taken a few more days to get in so that was my final decision. I'm still not sure if it was the right one. I tried to push 2 inches of soupy snow after I got home last night in a local parking lot and it did tend to just run off. Tough stuff to tame and I'm sure the V would be better in that one application, however, I have enough to do just trying to figure the plow angles and watching the hazards etc.., without running the V. I'm not really comfortable shifting and steering with the right hand and holding the Fishstix in the left but isn't that the only way? I'm used to steering with left hand and shifting a manual with the right. I'll figure it out if we get some snow. (I was having fun!) If in the future, I make some money and change my mind I'm sure the x-blade would sell well. After all, even if it doesn't work, it looks good. Lol

Yesterday the dealer fixed my oil cooler line leak under warranty. Doesn't seem to be leaking but I'll keep an eye on it. They still owe me a power mirror that works. I asked them to change the oil while I was there(1000. mi.) They didn't and I didn't realize it til I got home. Probably an oversight and I'll ask again when they get the mirror in. 

Had Linex spray the bed today. Looks great, I like the glossy, almost sparkley finish. It has great grip too. I got an over the rail job done for $100. less than my wife's Toyota shortbed, which we did this last summer. It must have taken twice the amt of material. Mine was through the dealer but I brought it in. I also put some Ventshades on today. I got a soaking last night while plowing. My 16 yr. old Toyota never had that problem (good ol' raingutters). 

I'm writing up a contract proposal for a small retail parking lot. It's probably 25-30k square feet with a nasty wet gravel mess in the back that also needs to be clean. This is a very undesirable lot (read inside corners everywhere) with not many options as far as stacking goes. If we get hammered, snow will need to be pushed through a 25' opening and piled in the back (should've bought the V). I told them I would try to match the old guy. But am realizing that since it is such an awful lot I should ask for more. How's this sound:

2-6"=$275, every additional 6" $225. Cleanup pass under 2" call and it will cost $150. No sand or salt The problem with this is that if it snows slowly I may have to make 2 passes before 6" is even accumulated because its retail. I won't make my hourly rate if this happens. I will barely make my rate if I only make 1 pass per 6" of snow. Please excuse me, I don't know what the h*@# I'm doing. This is a price I think that they will agree to. And if it snows, it will pay truck payments. The gravel part will hopefully freeze soon. I also bought a Fisher(whelan) mini bar amber light to make up the difference between the V and the X. It makes alot of cabin noise when revolving, another thing to drive me nuts.

Deereguy

But it looks cool...


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Deereguy,

I have some advice on signs that are simple and removable. Utilize the stake pockets in the back of your pickup. Get two stakes and extend them about 6-10" above the sidewalls of the bed. Attach a piece of wood across these stakes. You can "advertise" your name, phone, etc. on the length of your bed. When snow season is over replace that with your woodworking sign. Just a suggestion. I would do this to my truck but I have a cover that covers the stake pockets. My two cents.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Ya know, I really like this site.

DJL,

Good suggestion that I think I'll implement. I'll also mount that noisy light bar on top of it and get it off my roof.

Thanks,
Deereguy


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## BWinkel (Oct 23, 2003)

Deereguy,
Try holding the fishstick in your right hand. It is easy to hold the control and shift at the same time. This way will free up your left hand for steering. With time it will become second nature.


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## KatWalk (Oct 12, 2002)

Deereguy, Portsmouth did the line-x job. How much? I need to have it done. Thankds


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

Deereguy 
what kind of retail is it. That depends on your price. You should ask them if they need it done every 2", 4" or 6". Then base your price. I charge $100 per time for a small condo association thats only 3-4 straight pushes down about 125 yards. I go every 3-4". If they wanted me to do it every 6" the price would go to $150. The reason I would do this is because IF thats 6" of wet snow like the coast of Hampton gets then the time it takes goes way up. If you have to push all of this into 1 area and the snow is heavy it will almost probably double the time it takes to do it. Depending on the situation I would try to get them to plow at max every 4" and charge them as much as you can get from them. 
I say "You pay for what you get", I charge more but I do a better job. I might also offer clearing the entrance to the doors during closed hours. Just my 2cents


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## Sidebuz (Aug 10, 2003)

I'm not a installation expert, but I think the V is a little harder to install. Your comment about not knowing what position to put the V plow in... everybody is that way until the second or third snowfall. Been pushing with a straight for seven years, I played with the V for the whole first snowfall trying to figure out the most effective way to push the snow. Still learning with it too (finally got the 3rd push in)... but it takes me on average 20% less time to push now


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

KatWalk, I'm not sure if it in Portsmouth or N. Hampton. Go North on Rte 1 thru Hampton. Around 2 miles or so yellow Line X sign on right. Turn right after mobile home park. It's easy to miss. There's a small stripmall on the other side of the street with a computer shop, a Karate Dojo and a good take out Chinese place Lu Yuen's. My price was through Ports Chevy so it was cheaper. I paid $489 for over the rail which I believe is $100. less than I paid this last summer. You can download a $25. coupon off the Linex site.

Sidebuz, I knew I shouldn't have listened to those salesmen.

Avalancheplow, the previous guy was doing 2-8" for a set price and showing up once. They would rather pay less and get less I guess. I'm writing up 2-6" for $275. a $25. increase for 2" less with each additional 6 inches to bill out at $250.. A cleanup push or under 2" will be 175. I think this is fair even though it's more than they are paying now. It also will improve their service by changing the intervals this way. If the snow is really heavy I'll tackle it sooner and take a loss on my time as opposed to working my truck to much. My worse case scenario is I push 3 times in 12" and only get paid for 2 pushes. On the other hand, 6 inches of fluffy white stuff is nothing to push.

Big question??? how do I determine how many inches to charge for. I might have 4 inches here near the beach. 1.5 miles west might get 8"or more if your measured it.. I don't trust what the newspaper says as the coast is not consistent. Not even close. I guess I should find out how snowfall is measured. This could be tough depending on the person you're dealing with.

Oh, and I'm looking for a bright backup lamp as I can't see a thing through my tinted rear windows and the auto dimmed mirrors are even worse. I'm going to plug it in temp. to my trailer hookups with just the back up lamp or may be running light. Any good Ideas. I'll probably screw it to a stake in the bed pocket or magnetic mount on bumper(top of bumper covered with plastic. I could make a receiver blank and screw it to that although it would probably get crushed in the first 5 min.(just thinking aloud)


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## Sidebuz (Aug 10, 2003)

My two cents on measuring snowfall: take a tape measure out. Measure in a couple different spots. Average the measurements. Then go from there (push, don't push, how much to charge, etc). It is the "fairest way."


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I did contract with the double retail parking lot today. It took me forever to come up with a contract that seemed complete enough for a commercial application like this one. I ended up just doing it on Wordpad. Purchased a useless software program at staples last night. After spending 2+ hrs getting the wording, format etc correct I tried to print it out only to find that the body of the agreement could only accept 14 lines. It allowed me to enter about 60 lines. Not only wouldn't it print with more that 14 lines, but it wouldn't allow me to save it, cut and paste or anything to create a hard copy of what I'd done. If the creator of that contract software was present I would have......well, enough of that. I did 2-6" for one price and each additional 6" another price and based on one push every 6" which may not seem like good service but I couldn't offer continuous cleanup for what they were willing to pay. 

Sidebuz, I didn't include in the contract how depth of total snow fall would be reached. I am cautiously optimistic that this Store Mgr won't care, since he sends his invoices to a central office. But I will be recording tape measure depths during storms to insure I have at least some documentation. 

OK, how about some SNOW!


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

Deereguy, 
I got the snow business forms CD from SIMA it has a good contract with a pretty good terms and agreement. Cost wise it is well worth it. I recommend checking it out.


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

Deerguy, the only thing you may want in the contract is that you determine the amount of snow that was cleared, then just be as fair as you can.

Also, may I suggest using the search function to get the answer to some of these questions? Alot of this has been hashed and rehashed with good responses. Sometimes, people will not jump into the new exchange because they've added some really good info before. I don't want to see you miss out on their wisdom.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

HamptonPlow
I realize now that I should have put that condition in the contract to avoid headaches. ( I now remember reading that in another post a couple of weeks ago). Yes, I have been reading old posts like crazy but wanted to know this seasons thoughts on things. Seems like the business pricing posts are many times out of date or vague. But, point taken.

Thanks, Deereguy


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

HamptonPlow
I realize now that I should have put that condition in the contract to avoid headaches. ( I now remember reading that in another post a couple of weeks ago). Yes, I have been reading old posts like crazy but wanted to know this seasons thoughts on things. Seems like the business pricing posts are many times out of date or vague. But, point taken.

Thanks, Deereguy


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

AvalanchePlow, for some reason I missed reading your post about the sima contract CD. That sounds good since I still have to figure out residential contracts. I have been on their site but didn't see it offered. I m not a member as yet.


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

Deereguy, 
You don't have to be a member. Click on the store and it is 3/4 the way down on the right hand side. 

"Snow Removal Business 
Forms on CD
$24.95"

Is what it says. The best $25 I have spent.payup 

You will find three or four of the forms useful if you plan to stay small. If you plan to get larger it is the filled with great forms. Great tool.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Deereguy,

This was my first year in business for both lawn servicing and plowing (I've been plowing solo for three winters prior). I did not have any contracts in place. Well, I learned from my mistakes....no problems getting paid just headaches with services that were included/excluded from our "verbal" agreement.

So....

I contacted my attorney and asked him if he could go over a few service contracts/agreements with me to make sure I'm doing everything legit and have them ready for the 2004 season. He said for me to write up how I would like the structure to be. He then said I could hand it over to him and he would recommend changes/exclusions based on the other contracts he has reviewed/wrote in the past.

I went to one of the major office supply stores in my area and went to the isle with all of the forms. I bought a few contract forms for under 30 bucks. Took them home, copied them, returned them the next day to get my money back. Now I have a base to start with and modify. Instead of spending money on forms I'm spending money on an attorney. Yes, it'll cost more but I'd figure it would save me in a dispute and be professionally worded.


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## SteveVB (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DJL _
> *I went to one of the major office supply stores in my area and went to the isle with all of the forms. I bought a few contract forms for under 30 bucks. Took them home, copied them, returned them the next day to get my money back. Now I have a base to start with and modify. Instead of spending money on forms I'm spending money on an attorney. Yes, it'll cost more but I'd figure it would save me in a dispute and be professionally worded. *


A class on ethics may be a good idea.

You better hope your customers treat you better than you treat other business owners.

How hard would it have been to write up your OWN words and use YOUR own time to have something looked over by your attny.

Plenty of free advice on this site, or at your local library.

Purchasing an item, using it and returning it is despicable. I dont know where people get the idea they can do this-Ive seen returned tools at hardware stores that have been used and returned, its really unbelievable to me. Part of the blame goes to liberal return policies- no one should have taken a set of forms back if they were opened.

Good Luck


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

You know what they say about opinions. Opinions are like a-holes. We all have them and they all stink.

SteveVB,

First, it's funny you say that I should take a class in ethics. I already have. As a matter of fact, I've taken two. First one was at Penn State University and the other was at Trenton State College. In case you were wondering I passed both.

Second, I have another job as an engineer and ethics often comes up. Perhaps you can come into my workplace and give a presentation on ethics? You seem very well versed.

Third, who are you to tell me "you better hope your customers treat you better than you treat other business owners?" I'm sorry, do you know me and how I operate? Yes, yes, yes. I forgot that you know how I operate and everything else about me from simply reading my previous post.

Forth, I'm thinking the vendor (or business owner) thought he (or she) was treated well by me. Why you ask? Because I bought over two hundred dollars of office supplies that day alone. Chances are I will go back again when other office supplies are needed. 

Fifth, you did give me a good idea. Perhaps when my vendors send the invoice back with their payment I can repackage those invoices back in the original box. I can than return it as unused paper. That could save me a few bucks a year. Man are you a money saver.

Sixth, it wasn't that hard to write up my OWN words. However, being new to the service business industry it did take some, well okay, I confess, a lot of MY time. Are you familiar with brainstorming? I'm going to make the same mistake you did and assume that you do. Judging from your previous post you seem somewhat intelligent. Anyway, back to my point, I brainstormed everything into a document that I wanted to make sure I got in my contract/service agreement. Now, not being as smart as you I had to leverage the Internet, local stores, and people I know in the service industry that utilize service agreements, contracts, and cost proposals. I "USED" the forms from the store to get an idea of there structure and/or layout. I liked the way they flowed and it seems a combination of all of them will flow really nice.

Seventh, I wouldn't call this "free advice." After all, the Internet, phone line, computer, monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc., etc. are not FREE. Perhaps you can define what free is? But hey, I don't want to be super picky, so ya, I'll agree, it is free. And thank you for your free advice but I don't want it. However, feel FREE to give it. 

Eighth, I did not open the package the forms were in. I purchased them in sealed plastic wrapping. By the way, I returned them in the original sealed plastic wrapping. Therefore, the store had no problems crediting my account.

Ninth, you should look into or speak to people from the larger retail stores and ask why they have "liberal" return policies. You'll find it to be an interesting business strategy. 

Tenth, would you like to first ask about what I did instead of ASSuming and making an a$$ of yourself?


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## SteveVB (Oct 7, 2003)

All that justification is great, but it doesnt change the fact that you basically stole someone elses work- whether it was wrapped or not. Whether its a crappy $10 preprinted document or $10,000 set of plans.
Who cares if you bought hundreds or even thousands of dollars worth of stuff??? 
You're an engineer, if you design something for someone can they copy it and give it to whomever they want? Same idea here. Its pretty simple. You worked hard on the design and they are your ideas- you license them to who ever buys them. period.

When you bought those forms you basically bought a license- BUT in your case you didnt buy the license - you copied it and returned it for your money back, depriving the owner of rightful income. 

Those were observations from your post- nothing more. 
I made an observation that you deprived a business (s) of income, and that I hoped your customers would treat you better- Ill rescind that statement. 


Good Luck


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

First contract plow job this morn. I went outside to find (using my tape measure) exactly 2". 2"- 6" is my contracted first interval. So I was pretty happy about that. I took my time and it took me 1.5 hrs. I then looked around lusting over everyone else's accounts. My contracted acct. had just wetted my appetite and then it was over. (So I went to breakfast, It seemed like the right thing to do...) It seemed as though 2 trucks had cornered the market on the mile of strip my job was on. I could use a couple more good accts, that's for sure!: and some residentials. I will advertise in the paper this next week. I have cards and vinyl truck and plow signage coming. I guess it's really late in the season to expect a full route but I'll keep trying. At least til march.

I must not be subscribed to this post any more because I had no idea via the e-mail alert that this thread was still moving. Anyway, to get back to the contract issue. I too went to the the local office supply and spent way to much cash on supplies including the no-name $29. contractors software package. I have opened it and I do plan on trying to return that piece of s%@#. It is so limited and unflexible that not only can you not include more than afew lines of conditions but you can't edit or delete the other parts that are not even remotely applicable. It is a waste and I'll leave it with them even if they don't give me my $ back. And yes, I'll delete it from my files. I will purchase the SIMA CD for examples. I might as well make up my own layouts for the trouble I've already gone through. I may have them printed as duplicates. I don't think I will spend the money on an attourney as I've never needed one except to pass papers on property. I wouldn't know who to hire. 

Oh, and if the office store doesn't credit me for the opened software, I can purchase the $400. Quickbooks pkg I need for my cabinet business etc, as well as everything else I need somewhere else. If a product is not consumed, obviously there is nothing wrong with a return. If a product just plain [email protected]%s then everyone should return it to get it off the market. Just my 2 cents.


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## rainair (Nov 11, 2003)

*returns*

first of all SteveVB, drop it....
enought said!


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Deereguy,

I have had a plow for three years now. This is my first year on my own. The two years previous I contracted myself out to another company. I'm glad I did. I learned so much about technique, simple fixes, how to be more efficient, etc. In fact, he still has my number and he will call me for the bigger events (>12"). Since I only have a small commercial account to take care of I can run off with him before, after, in the the middle of servicing my other account.

Just a suggestions since it is so late in the season and difficult to get accounts. Actually, another quick way to get money is to stop at a gas station that looks open but still has a lot of snow on the lot. Pull in, drop the plow, and ask to fill up. Next, suggest you could do the lot for a tank of gas plus some or whatever you feel is appropriate. Just a recommendation.

As far as how you find the contractor. Mine was word of mouth. But I did see a bunch in the Sunday paper a few months back looking for help.


SteveVB,

First and foremost, I did not STEAL the item from the store or from the writer of the contract. Get your facts straight and make sense before you post a reply next time. Where do you come off stating these things? 

On another note, often in engineering we do what is called reverse engineering. Yes, it is ethical and yes it is legal. Let us look at a very simple, common example; the automobile. Just how many aftermarket products are there for automobiles? You go from floormats, to engine parts, all the way to window tints.

Think about it...If you manufacturer aftermarket floormats how do they know what dimensions to build them? (I'm assuming the auto manufacturing will not give them the build plans for the auto)One option is to go purchase the vehicle (or whatever product) you are targeting and measure. This is reverse engineering. Is this unethical to you? If so, you better sit down because almost every company in the world is unethical in your definition! I realize this may not be the best example but it is done all the time.

And yes, you can get into trouble when you start using their patented technology or stealing their propriety information or just copying their work and putting your name on it. I would never, ever even think about doing that. THAT is illegal as well as unethical. However, in my case, I didn't open the product nor did I copy it word for word, or use their exact format. 

If you'd look at my situation from the standpoint that I liked the way it (contract/service agreements) flowed as far as the sections of dates, scope of work, descriptions, etc, how is this unethical? I didn't copy anything word for word, scan it into my computer and put my name on it, I didn't open the package, what is wrong here?


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

Deereguy, 
You should find out the names or outfit the two guys, or trucks down by your market. If you describe the trucks I can probably tell you who it is because I know the names of most of them in Hampton. You should keep an eye on the accounts you want next year and find out who does the lot and when you know who does it you can kind of figure out their pricing for that one and others they have. I have done this for this winter and the last winter so next year I know what the company wants and gets, and about what they pay for the service, and I note any problems I see with the current guy doing the job, and offer new Ideas or show advantages with my service. Good scouting this winter will help you set up for next winter. Maybe next storm if you wanted to we could meet and say hi. I normally meet with two or three other guys and get food or drinks with them during the storm. I recommend talking to as many guys as possible. I got 8 driveways on one road from a guy I met at a restaurant because he had to many. NETWORKING IS ONE KEY TO SUCCESS!


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## SteveVB (Oct 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DJL _
> *
> I went to one of the major office supply stores in my area and went to the isle with all of the forms. I bought a few contract forms for under 30 bucks. Took them home, copied them, returned them the next day to get my money back. Now I have a base to start with and modify. Instead of spending money on forms I'm spending money on an attorney. Yes, it'll cost more but I'd figure it would save me in a dispute and be professionally worded. *


DJL- look, I just read your post. In it you said you "...COPIED THEM, returned them the next day to get my money back" I responded to something I thought was wrong. Maybe I didnt have the whole picture- if I didnt then someone else may not have had the whole picture either. No one knows more than is printed on the screen.

This site is visited by tons of people looking for advice and information to start and or run a business, I didnt feel that your example presented an example that should be emulated. So I pointed it out. Thats it.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

DJL,
So how exactly does that work. Does he pay you by the hour, by the job or some other way. I would be working under his(contractor) agreements. This poses some questions not the least of which is, who's liable( I hate the L word). I think a fair amount of guys are uninsured but in the plowing business. Not knowing who your working for is a little unsettling. Perhaps I'm blowing this issue all out of proportion. I am insured but still am not really comfortable with the idea of plowing someone out who hasn't signed a contract. The contract if nothing else informs the client as to what I will and will not take responsibility for. It may not stand up in court but it sets me at ease.

I am not insured to plow on any roads and so I couldn't take those jobs.

Still, I would like to network with some guys to get a handle on the business around here and maybe pickup some work.

AvalanchePlow, Ever eat at the Airfield Cafe, Hampton Airfield? I'm up for a meal almost anytime.


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

Hey DJL :crying: , and SteveVB :crying: 
Maybe you guys could start a new thread and finish it there.


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

deereguy. Yeah I have. I live by the airfield. Depending on the meal most go to O'learys for drinks and dinner, but we could work it out.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I was thinking breakfast I guess, but O'leary's could work. Well let me know or if you see me plowing at Aubuchon's stop and say Hi. (Gee, I hope that wasn't your acct., Doh..) What do you drive? Seems like the duelly dumps with sanders cleanup. Not that I can blame the clients. Good rigs with complete service.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Sorry avalancheplow, you are right. I apologize and I'll stop.

Deereguy,

The guy I plowed for gave me a price according to the size plow I had on my truck. I had/have a 7.5 western pro plow. As far as prices around here in central joisey anywhere from 60-80/hour is fair. This is my opinion and I don't want to start a price debate, they are horrible on these sites!!

As far as insurance was concerned...

I spoke to my insurance agent and I'm insured for any damage that I cause directly from my truck and/or plow. This coverage came from my commercial automobile insurance. The contractor has insurance that covers him for slip/fall and everything else. I met him through a friend of a friend. So it wasn't like I called him out of the phone book. I can see how you are a little worried about that, I would be also. But, aren't you carrying insurance for the parking lot you have now? If you do, I would think that you would be covered in the event that something did happen. Check with your insurance agent to be sure.

I can't say enough about the experience.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

DJL, I am covered, both with commercial insurance on my truck and get this, my plow, and a separate combo plow/landscape and contractor's policy including the completion part. I guess it would be smart to work for the bigger guys who are definitely not plowing for beer money. Asking if they are insured and what type of insurance they carrry shouldn't be too out of line. I imagine some guys would be offended. 

It would seem that I could leave a sub job and another sub could show up for the next push and cause some damage which I could be blamed for. I don't think it's a likely senario but just one of the possibilities. As soon as you put in a claim, I've heard that Insur. companies will drop you and the next company will charge you more because you had a pay out. I pay insurance to guard against the big oops not the small stuff. I have a$500. deductable. The carrier I use does't want to bothered with the small stuff.

It seems we, I, can always come up with how things may go wrong. Of course, there is always risk. I'm not sure $80/hr covers my investment unless it's easy on the truck. Around here guys are getting $30. and more for a double drive, which could easily bring $150 an hr at a simple 5 per hr. Obviously, subbing by the hr takes less effort in the collections area. Which would be a plus.

Networking is probably a better way to go for me, since I've already sprung for the insurance, separate nextel #,business cards, vinyl truck and plow signage ordered today, 8 week newspaper ad taken out today, NH business reg. fee and the list of expenses goes on. I'm going to be on the lookout for next yrs clients in ME and tackle that extra early next year.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Deereguy,

Sorry, should have explained my situation better. When I get a call it's only for the bigger snow storms in which time is critical. So when he calls it's usually for at least 12 hours worth of work. So if you figure $60 per hour that's $720 bucks in twelve hours. Heck, I was with him so long last year he got a hotel room. He let the plowers stay in after we were out their for over 20 hours just to get a few hours of shuteye. The guy is soooo nice. He doesn't have to do things like that. I'd go the extra mile for him anyday. Maybe I just lucked out.

Now, when I plow for him it's mostly big parking lots in which we are doing constant circles just plowing the windrow over and over. Once its to big/heavy for the pickups the loaders get in there and start stacking it in the appropriate location. It is nice b/c I'm not going into and out of gears all the time. So, in my opinion, and yes you'll get arguments on this, it is less wear and tear on my truck.

And yes, it's not the highest of profit margins. But it's fun and I'm bringing in a profit. So I can see how if the contractor is paying you to do residential it is a pain b/c you could get that money per 15/20 minutes worth of work.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

I got my first Residential contract customer today and I seriously underbid it. What was I thinking, I have no idea, but I'm supposed to have him sign the agreement tomorrow. The drive is uphill, about 100 Feet long and triple wide at the end he parks his 4 cars at. I told him I'd do it for $75. 1"-14", and $35. every additional 6". And it needs to be plowed before 7 am. which in my book would have increased the fee had I taken the time to think it over. He kept explaining that it didn't have to be done meticulously and that he would use his snowblower to do around the cars. I bought it, instead of charging what I think it was worth. Should've been $75. 1"-6", $35 each additional 6" and that would have been a fair price with my investment. Ahh experience is the best teacher. I'm hoping for many 2" storms.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

ouch! I usually don't like to respond to any type of pricing comments/questions b/c it just starts to many arguments, but man that is low. But like you said, you live and you learn. 

Suggestion that might/might not help you out, bear with me b/c I'm thinking as I type........

he needs it done before 7am right? Ok, so you show up at 6:15-6:30 or whatever time to get it done by 7am and leave. I would explain to him that you will do it by 7am but if/when you have to come back b/c he can't get back in his driveway after he leaves its another $75. I dunno if I'm making sense but do you kinda see my point. For instance, if the snow started at midnight and lasted for twelve hours you'd at least get two pushes out of it b/c it would need to be cleaned up again after 7am, when it stopped.


wait a minute, if he didn't sign the contract then you still have time to change it, right????


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

The contract is not yet even written but I did give a price and feel that I should honor it. I wish that there was not so much pressure to give a price right away. It was dark(and cold -4) and I lost all sense of what I told myself I needed to get per hr. He is a busy professional and I was on the spot with out even a blank contract as I haven't worked out the Residential one yet.

Boy am I a meathead! 

Anyway, No, I'm not bound contractually yet but you couldn't ask for a better area. Also close to my Comm. lot. I could probably show up With 2 contracts. The first as stated and another with a different breakdown. But not to far from what I already told him. The thing is $75. for 1-6" would be fair as it really amounts to doing the 100 ft of road and not worrying about his parking area as he stated. My gut tells me that I should do the job as I think it should be done and therefore I would need more money. He has a loop drive with a big extension to fit all his cars at the middle point. Read backdrag. He was looking for a low figure and told me he didn't need the second half of the loop (Circular drive) and the quote shouldn't include that. It is a good place for stacking snow however it wouldn't take long to complete the loop except for the second entrance. I could offer to plow the whole thing for say $85. 1-6" and $35. every additional 6". This would increase my potential earnings on larger storms while giving him additional value on the smaller storms. It's not the price I gave him so much as the 14" figure. My Comm lot is set up in 6" intervals. Why I blurted out 14 inches is beyond me. The Icing on the cake is that he is restoring his newly purchased Victorian Farmhouse and says his GC is looking for some Subs. He gave me his name and phone. This is right up my alley for winter work. Boy was he smooth. I ought to take a lesson.


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

Deereguy,
I would tell him you meant 6". If he wants it to 14" you will need to give him a new price. If he wants it done right then he'll pay. My first residential I screwed up but I told him that this was my first residential proposal, and I normally do commercial so forgive me for making a mistake. He took the new price and signed the contract. 

I agree with DJL on the leaving at 7am thing. If you have to come back because it snowed 3" more after 7am plowing charge him again. payup


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

It sounds like you're doing the house on Atlantic Ave that I did last year.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Deereguy, ya you might have been smoothed over. Happened to me with my lawn business last year. I felt like a real jackass. My uncle has his own service business. The one piece of advice he made me aware of was not to start cheap b/c then you get labeled as cheap (referring to rates) and future clients will expect that from you. I found it to be true.

As far as push prices, I have 2" to 6", >6" - 9", >9" - 12" and I calculated two trips into the 6-9 and 9-12 push prices. I also state that anything >12" is considered a blizzard. For blizzards I charge an hourly rate per truck per visit at the 2-6 inch price. I wanted to cover my rear in the event we had a really bad storm (like presidents day in '03).


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Next time a bid on a job like this one, I'm bringing the three of you. HamptonPlow, 215 sound familiar. How'd you know? 

I went over there this morn. to do this face to face but they had their floors redone and the contractor told them to leave for the weekend. Anyways, I called him up at his ski condo and gave him the story almost exactly as AvalanchePlow said. He didn't buy it for a second, even though it was the truth. He said he liked the 1 to 14" figure. I explained that I had decided to keep all my billing in 6" increments to help with billing and gave my apologies for being new to the business etc. He wouldn't budge and since it was over the phone I really couldn't do any talking so I quickly told him that It would be a 1-12" contract but I would be willing to cut my price to $65.. He liked that. I left the contract with the Nanny, tucked my tail between my legs and left.

Now, it's only one contract. I can live with it. Next time I'll shoot high and if they balk then drop it if I have to. The icing on the cake was when the nanny told me that she had found my number posted as Shaw's and had given it to him. In her words he was desperately trying to find someone and had no luck for a week. His wife's a doctor. He a financial guy. They obviously have the $ to pay a fair fee. I just hope we get lots of 2" storms or over 12".

HamptonPlow, any suggestions on plowing this drive? Why didn't you want it this year? Do you know his GC W.S. ? If so, any incites into working as a sub for him. Email me if you've got the time.


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

No, 215's not the one. It sounded familiar as my customer from last year sold her house and it's going through a major rehab. It's just north of the school. 

The new owner called me this year, but I declined. The previous owner was a widow. Her husband died suddenly last year just before Christmas and she was a good friend of one of my customers. I did it for the rest of last season, but it was just too big of a job for my truck. I had to be on it every 4" and I plowed most of the time at no charge.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

HamptonPlow,
Still sounds like the place to me. The older woman lives up in attached loft. Row of cedars out front about 5 houses after the train bridge just before the school. White victorian farmhouse with big wrap around porch on the hill. 

Anyways, recieved my vinyl lettering in the mail last night. I hope I can put it on straight. Red Reflective even. And one for the Plow. If I could have started earlier, I probably wouldn't have had to spring for all this stuff.


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## avalancheplow (Dec 20, 2003)

Deereguy,
If you need help with the stickers I can help. The shop I work at does them a lot. Hope to see you out plowing to night if we get enough snow.  I have a feeling we aren't going to get more than an inch:realmad:


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Thanks AvalanchePlow,

I put them on in a friends garage under, right as the game was getting underway today. 45 degrees seemed warm enough. Good thing I didn't go it alone. Needed all four hands. I think they look good. I had the side decals made for the extra cab tinted windows as I was warned that the reflective vinyl is a pain to take off. It apparently only comes off in small chunks. I can use a razor blade on the glass. There's one on the tailgate and one on the plow. I don't know how long the Plow decal will last because I did put it on the middle of the plow. The X-Blade has so much forward rake that up in a safe zone it was unreadable. Would have worked well on a rubber deflector too, except I don't have one.

I wanted them on for the storm but looks like we got ripped off again. All I ask is for a lousy 2 inches. Lucky guys in Portland are probably out as I'm typing here. Even 1.5 more tonight would do it for me. I don't know if there's a local decal maker but the internet business I used was very accomodating. I didn't like the proof he sent me and changed things around a couple of times until they worked to my eyes. I ordered four decals. Three different size signs with some reflective lettering and 2 different letter border colors(depending on whether they were going on tinted windows or graypaint or stainless). He charged me the same as if I were buying 4 basic decals all the same without any border or reflective film. I'll try to get a picture up if I have time to figure it out. The decals were $26. each; the largest 14"x 24". His name is Eric at decalzz.com and even his shipping was great for $5., I received it in 3 days. How can you beat that.


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## Hamptonplow (Nov 19, 2003)

Deereguy, That is the place, I had trouble recalling the address number. 

I usually started at the side by the tennis court. First I opened the entrance up, then I plowed uphill with left angle and stacked the first push near the corner of the house. It helped to prevent leaving a big windrow between me and the parking lot. Then I continued left and pushed westbound past the front steps and started another stack. Then I turned toward the parking lot and and made one push up the middle toward the loft and made a stack west of the stairs to the loft. Then I turned around and pushed most of the parking lot snow down into stacks in the middle of the semi-circle.

Sometimes, if I got a little behind in my route, I'd have to make small pushes up the hill to the left, then the right, then the left, then the right, etc. It was a tough job for my truck at the time. 

My new one can handle it. I might be interested in picking that job back up after you leave the area. If you're so inclined, you can give him my cell number at the end of the season.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

HamptonPlow,

If everythings works out and I do move North, its all yours. Just remind me at the end of the season so I remember to give him your name and number. I met with the GC who's doing the renovation. He must have underbid because he's not paying. I wouldn't drop my rate so I guess I won't be working on that job. That's OK because I have a custom stairway to do anyway. I was trying to put off this tough job until after storm season but it doesn't look like we're ever going to get snow anyway. If I didn't have this new truck/plow payment I'd be up logging on my own job. Perfect weather for dragging timber. Dang weather! ... Just venting


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

Well, it looks like this thread is out of steam. Thanks to everyone that shared an opinion. It's been helpful to read the ideas expressed on this forum. Have a safe and profitable season.

Now let's get some Snow!

Deereguy


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