# advice on preventing rust



## paul soccodato (Nov 9, 2002)

about 2 years ago, i bought a new torwell sander (1.7 yard). i wanted to get the stainless one, but the dealer was out, and couldnt get me one for about 2 months. i was tired of throwing salt off the back of the truck, and just picked up a big commercial lot. anyways i got the steel one. problem is its starting to slightly rust. (expected). any advice on how to slow this process down a bit. i always wash the unit out when im finished with it, only have salt in it when using it, after i wash it out (scrubed clean) i oil the whole machine up. just sucks to pay $3600 for something and watch it deteriorate.


----------



## wyldman (Jan 18, 2001)

Oil,rustproofing or Fluid Film.

The oil is probably the most readily available,can be just sprayed or wiped on.We use cheap rustproofing from our oil recyclers.Made of recycled oil,looks just like motor oil,but a little thicker and it has some sort of "clinging" agent in it so it sticks and doesn't run as much.It's also really cheap.5 gal pail is less than $20.00 CDN.We use an old paint gun to spray it on after the equipment has been washed.Fluid Film is something we used to use,but it is fairly expensive,and leaves a waxy residue that makes the equipment look funny.


----------



## Taconic (May 18, 2001)

Instead of using straight salt use magic salt as it will stop the rusting process which you are seeing on your sander
Joh Parker


----------



## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Along those lines, I had already thought about spraying Magic-0 on the sander next Spring.


----------



## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

I am not trying to be a wise guy, but that is exactly why I sold my 2 steel units this year, and now run 2 stainless units.
1- the enviroment is just to much for the painted steel to deal with
2- even with magic salt, when the magic washed off the salt, you still get direct salt to stell contact, it does slow it down, but it wont stop it
3- factory paint is lousy, whether it be a spreader or a plow, once the corrosion starts, good luck
4- short of a complete disassemble, sand blast and repaint with good paint, you will never be able to stop it

If it was me, touch up as much as you can, and sell it while it still looks good, and buy a stainless.Again not being a wise guy, just feeling your pain.
Dino


----------



## sno-mover (Jan 12, 2002)

Rust never sleeps.:realmad:


----------



## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Try Lubra-Seal, from Rhomar. It isn't cheap, but it does seem to work well. I suggest you brush it on, because using their sprayer, you waste a lot of it. I duct taped a 4" paint brush on a broken rake handle to apply it, and it works well. The stuff is messy, but cleans up with Naptha.

On the spreader motor and auger drive chains, I use Stihl bar & chain oil. Again, I apply it with a small 1/2" disposable brush.

~Chuck


----------



## SatZ28 (Nov 2, 2002)

Maybe this spring, take it apart and then have someone sand blast and powder coat the unit.

This past summer, I finished restoring my 69 Camaro and had about 35 pcs, including the innner fenders and control arms done this way for about $600. I did this as the process is tough as nails, and resists gas, oils and brake fluids. And on top of it, powder coated parts look great. 

Look for a company that does automotive, not industrial. Most automotive places have blasting cabinets and ovens big enough for car frames.

This may be the way to go.


----------



## frogman (Jan 3, 2001)

I have been using a couple of products (available commercially at any auto supply) that have been working well. 

1)Brush the rust with with a wire wheel or wire brush. Do not sand blast, as some rust must be present for the next step. 

2)Brush on a rust converter (Ex-tend or any comprable product. Comes in liquid and spray form. Brushed on liquid leaves a heavier finish and is the better option IMO). The converter changes the character of the rust to "non-threatening" and stops the oxidation process. I do at least 2 preferably 3 coats. No big deal, as the dry time until the next coat is in minutes. 

4)Let the stuff cure overnight. 

5)Coat with undercoating (comes in a spray can for auto use). I've done this to the rear end of my trucks, hitches, plow frames, salt spreader frames (mini type, not a V), wheel barrows, Trailers. It's inexpensive and has been working well for me. 
Bob


----------



## JML (Dec 27, 1999)

My mechanic told me to spray diesel fuel in the spreader, have been doing it for a few years, with pretty good luck...


----------



## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

Here is the biggest problem. Getting to the channel under the spreader where the conveyor chain runs. the only way to really get in there is to remove the chain and proceed from there. I just didnt want the hassel anymore of painted steel and went to stainless. I have so much more free time now.
Dino


----------



## KLMlawn (Apr 18, 2001)

> _Originally posted by plowking35 _
> *Here is the biggest problem. Getting to the channel under the spreader where the conveyor chain runs. the only way to really get in there is to remove the chain and proceed from there. I just didnt want the hassel anymore of painted steel and went to stainless. I have so much more free time now.
> Dino *


But even thought the box itself wont rust and deteriorate, the chains, gears, etc. ... all the stuff that normally deteriorates first with heavy use will still corrode and break ... eventually ... and need to be replaced ... those parts aren't SS.
If a Steel unit will last say 5-6 years with good (not fanatical) maintenance and costs about $2500-$3000 installed, then you either sell it or junk it, and buy another one ... why spend another $1000-$1500 more for SS, when you are still going to have to rip the thing down and replace the chain/belt, gears, bearings, drive chains, motor, and most everything else except the box and chute?


----------



## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

You would have to see the smith to understand. The chain is the only item that would have to replced after about 15 yrs of use. The bearings are very easy to chainge if need be. 
As for cost I payed 3600.00 for my smith unit 2 weeks ago, that is with in a few hundred of a mild steel gas unit, and I dont have the anuual maint hassels. I have owned the steel units and like you said you have to turn them over every 5 yrs. My smith will go 10 yrs with out any major overhaul. And the hopper will still be 100%.
Ok you buy a new steel unit for 3000.00, sell it for 1500.00 in 5 years, and buy another for 3000.00, so you now have 4500.00 into a spreader, do the same in another 5 years and at the ten year mark you have 6000.00 into a spreader. That doesnt include maint. issues along the way during those 5 yrs of use. I still have my original 3600.00 plus lets say another 1000.00 in replacement and repair(that might be a high number but we will go with that)
I am still way ahead of the your numbers and I still have a good looking SS unit. Trust I have run the numbers and the SS units are the way to go.
Dino


----------



## DYNA PLOW (Oct 14, 2000)

precisly why i purchased a S S v box when i decided to start deicing, little more up front...lot less down the line.
dan


----------



## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

I agree with Dino.I run a SS Bradford,it is 6 yrs old now,its still like new.Last yr i replaced all the bearings,as a preventative,since they were rusting bad,and a few wouldnt take grease.It cost me about 150 bucks for every bearing on it. 7 of them in all.I also put a new spinner shaft on,since it was rusted,and i bent it backing in a snow pile.that was 16 bucks.I bought a new new conveyer chain for 280 buck,its sitting under my bench,since mine is in good shape yet,its there if i break mine. All told i have less than 500 in 6 yrs of maintenance,and this spreader is like new yet.all the fasteners are SS also,I plan on running this unit for at least 10 more yrs,or it gets damaged beyond repair.Paul, I use Magic salt,and it really does help,but it wont cure your rusting problems,it will slow them dramatically,but as long as you spreader gets wet,it washes off the magic,and it rusts instantly.


----------



## KLMlawn (Apr 18, 2001)

OK, I guess there are certain merits to the SS, but I would like to ask how well the electric models do with sand/salt mix ... not just straight salt ... we usually run the mix here on the Island, I really haven't heard of or seen that many other contractors either pre-treating or using straight salt. Maybe I am blind and just not seeing it, but I really do not think straight salt is common practice or pre-treating around here.


----------



## Alan (Mar 2, 2000)

KLM,

Maybe you should be the one to initiate a new standard. The economics of using mix just aren't there. You can do a better job for less money by going with straight salt. The only time mix can be justified is on gravel areas. Ask Geoff about his opinion on that, he made the switch a couple years ago.


----------



## SLC1 (Jul 27, 2000)

KLM, We are in the same boat in my area, no one and I mean no one uses straight salt around here everyone uses sand/salt mix, well from this forum and from going to John Parkers and talking to others we decided two years ago to switch over to all salt, for all my customers, and you would not believe the results and the benifits, I now can do my entire route with two spreader trucks, we havent even put the 8yd spreader in our big truck yet this year because we dont need to, we use half the amount of material, it works faster and is alot more economical, My competion I know for a fact thinks that I am crazy and must be spending a fortune on material but I am way ahead of the game and I still charge for the sanding, customers are happy some dont get the idea of no sand but I have had no problems with it and I am very happy with the switch. Just my two cents


----------



## KLMlawn (Apr 18, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Alan _
> *KLM,
> 
> Maybe you should be the one to initiate a new standard. The economics of using mix just aren't there. You can do a better job for less money by going with straight salt. The only time mix can be justified is on gravel areas. Ask Geoff about his opinion on that, he made the switch a couple years ago. *


I was not implying that it isn't a good idea ... but here are a couple of issues -
1) Most customers are used to SEEING the sand on the lots and thus KNOWING you applied it and assume there is salt in it. I would think it would take a concienious effort on all contractors in this area to educate the customer on the benefits of using straight salt - better, faster results and no clean-up in the spring, to name a few.
2) Finding salt, let alone pretreated salt, in bulk ... and then not paying an arm and first born child for it. I was picking up some mix the other evening and the place I was at had straight salt ... for $105 a ton ... sorry but I think that it a bit steep.
3) Finding a distributor of Magic, or other similar treatment, to apply to the salt to increase the overall benefit, effectiveness and reduce the corrosiveness to equipment ... { does Magic counteract the white dust/drip trails on carpet you get with straight salt??}

These are just a few things that would have to be considered but as for now, the mix is readily available and can be had for about $30-$35 a yard.


----------



## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Kryn, don't feel alone. I also use a sand/salt mix. Yes, I know all the benefits etc. But, economics and every surface I treat being hardpack and gravel wins out. Sand is readily available from the pit five miles from my house. He also sells me the mix. Salt is trucked from the coast so I would have to pay trucking.

I've started passing out samples of Magic Salt this year. Going over well except for the potential cost. Next year I'll be treating and selling bulk. So, I'm experimenting with Magic coated sand. Let's see, salt cost $50/ton plus trucking - sand costs $8.50/ton and very minimal trucking cost (my gas for ten miles round trip). Hold on, I'll figure it out as soon as I find my calculator.


----------



## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

You once again bring up an old argument that has been put to bed a long time ago. Once a person sees the bennies its an open and shut case. You should be able to have a bulk load of salt delivered for no more than 70-80 a ton, and load it yourself. 
Now your mix is 35 a ton, and no more than 1/4 of that is salt. So you need at least 4 tons of mix to get a ton of salt. That means you are paying 140 a ton for the salt you buy, so the 105 a ton is a bargain. even if they have a 3-1 mix which I doubt, you would be at the break even point on material. When you figure the time to apply, the salt wins hands down.
The customers see sand so they feel good, but what they really want is a black and wet lot, not a beach.
Lastly, the electric spreader will move any material you put through it. Just look back to the new motor thread, my spreader moved 1/2 stone, trust me sand is no problem.
Dino


----------



## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Kryn, at $30 - $35 a yard, what is the salt ratio? I would guess 80% sand, to 20% salt? That works out to about 300# of salt per yard of sand. Think about it. You are applying only 300# of salt for every yard you put down. Even at $105 a yard, how much salt would you need to achieve the same melting results as putting down sand/salt mix? Not much IMO. Research shows as little as 300# per acre can achieve the melting results you'd need.

This issue has been gone over before, and even those that were very set in their ways have been changing over to plain salt. At this point, forget treated salt. Try plain salt first, you can always try treated later.

You might also want to check for other sources for salt, as that price is higher than any other posted anywhere I can recall on here for plain salt. There is a thread on salt prices in the de-icing forum. Look it over, and you will see that price is VERY high.

I get it delivered here in NJ for about $50 a ton, for a 25 ton load. If i picked it up, I could get it for about $40 a ton.

If you have a place to store a pile, and a way to load it, I know you can get a 25 ton delivery for A LOT less than $100 a yard.

As far as storage, keep in mind that a 5 gallon pail holds 50# of salt. You could probably buy a pallet of 80# bags for a lot less than $100/yard too, if you have a place to store it.

Just trying to give you some options here.

~Chuck


----------



## gordyo (Feb 12, 2002)

> Once a person sees the bennies its an open and shut case


I've seen the benifits and am ready to use straight salt but:

How do you sell the Conservation Commision?? They regulate what I can use because the campus is surrounded by water and they don't like Salt. I can only use an 80/20 mix right now and that was a fight cause they made me go to a 90/10 mix a few years ago and allowed me to switch back after I complained (but that's a different story). I can't change to straight salt or Magic until I get their permission which I have heard is going to be very difficult. They won't let the Town DPW use straight salt on the roads and they are both Town Depts. Anyone had to deal with these enviromental issues??


----------



## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

Send me a PM, and I can give you the details you need to change to salt. I did a post about pre wetting that had some of those details.

Geoff


----------



## plowking35 (Dec 21, 1999)

In your case gordyo, they wont let you de-ice, but instead you are just applying a traction aid and the salt is there just to keep the sand from freezing. As a side note if you are to run straight salt you will really need a SS spreader.
Dino


----------



## gordyo (Feb 12, 2002)

Dino,

I bought a S.S. Sander about a month ago. There is a few pictures of it in this thread.

http://www.plowsite.com//showthread.php?threadid=7389


----------



## John DiMartino (Jan 22, 2000)

One big advantage to running straight or treated salt is weight.I only have a 3/4 ton pickup,the truck would really squat with a full load of salt/sand mix,with salt it isnt nearly as bad,I can heap it and it sits level,no more bulged tires,and squishy feeling.I can also do 3-4x as many accounts with magic salt as opposed to mix.There are a few situations where a mix is better ,steep hills,gravel,but I no longer us it.


----------



## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

One of the valid points Geoff brought up in the other thread was the size of the sand granules. Some of them are so fine they are considered a pollutant themselves.

Some States even have "no granular" laws, which prohibit everything but liquids....

~Chuck


----------



## gordyo (Feb 12, 2002)

> One of the valid points Geoff brought up in the other thread was the size of the sand granules. Some of them are so fine they are considered a pollutant themselves.


Chuck,

This is just the type of info I need. Do you remember what thread this was discussed in??


----------



## JD PLOWER (May 18, 2001)

I think this might be what chuck means http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7424


----------



## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

It was originally posted in the Pre Wetting thread by GeoffD

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7424

This is the part I was making reference to:

_Originally Posted By GeoffD_

Just for a side note. For you sand lovers out there, you will be switching to salt, maybe not now, maybe 10 or even 20 years from now, but it will happen. The Federal EPA has approved a regulation called PB 10, well sand particles are smaller than 10 microns. There for sand is considered a toxin by PB 10. Ok so you say will PB 10 get enforced? Well it is, Industry has allready passed these standards. Many state DOTs are going to all salt, with some exceptions. However there primary response is salt, sand only when temperatures demand. State DPWs are being forced to start to work toward these changes. After the public sector has achieved these results, they will go after the private sector. Just so you all know, there is one town in Maine that by Federal EPA laws to meet the clean air standard PB 10, is not allowed to use sand in there snow plan. If sand is used it must be swept as soon as possible, and this has been enforced.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

And Jeff, I suggest you send GeoffD an e mail, or a PM. As he said above, he definitely has some info that can help you.

~Chuck


----------



## gordyo (Feb 12, 2002)

I sent him a PM last night.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## KLMlawn (Apr 18, 2001)

BTW Chuck, I did call around and found a guy locally that has straight salt for $60 a yard (not ton). So I am gussing that would be about $55 a ton then if I am not mistaken. And no need to stckpile, that is his price for 1 yard or 20 yards. Not that bad I would say. Now I just have to find some more info on where I can obtain the materials needed to make my own pretreatment.


----------

