# CLEARLY define the difference between plowing and relocation



## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

i had this come up twice so fare, and i know as these blizzard invoices go out, there will be even more questions

SOOOOO many people think i can put the snow anyplace with any peace of equiptment as part of a normal "plowing" application. They think with pick up trucks, we can move snow 500 feet, then make a left turn, then make a right turn, then go another 300 feet, then turn around and push it in a ditch. - sure...right

in my contracts i give a defintion of each, but to be honest its not that great, and i cant really provide a good argument against this type of questions.... With the large bills going out, im sure im going to get the "why didnt you guys just put it over there in the first place as part of your plowing?"

so please give me some good argument points, and some good contract wording. Im hoping those along the east coast and to the north receive more snow than us, so im hoping they have better ways to argue this point


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

elite1msmith;1240308 said:


> i had this come up twice so fare, and i know as these blizzard invoices go out, there will be even more questions
> 
> SOOOOO many people think i can put the snow anyplace with any peace of equiptment as part of a normal "plowing" application. They think with pick up trucks, we can move snow 500 feet, then make a left turn, then make a right turn, then go another 300 feet, then turn around and push it in a ditch. - sure...right
> 
> ...


A picture is worth a thousand words. Just draw a diagram and circle the areas where snow will be placed.Simple,nothing else really to add.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

I hate this one. It never fails that after there is 60 inches of snow on the ground, you tell them they need to pay for machine work and they respond...."You should have pushed it back more in the beginning"


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

Plowing defined: The act of clearing snow from parking, driving, and walking surfaces such as parking lots, driving lanes, sidewalks and approaches during or immediately following snowfall events resulting in 1" of snowfall (enter trigger amt) or more by way of pickup truck or machine equipped with snow blade. 

Snow relocating: The relocation of snow from areas used as stacking locations during plowable snow events to an area more conducive to permanent storage of large amounts of snow for an extended period of time. Snow relocating will be done at contractor's discretion periodically throughout the season by means of skid steer, loader, or other form of heavy equipment to properly maintain a clear and safe lot as seasonal snowfalls begin to accumulate in the stacking locations outlined in the commercial site plan. (i.e. suggested locations for stacking snow...) These services will be billed at a rate of ___/hr with a minimum charge of $___.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Raymond - My contract has berry similar wording to your above statement, But if I can play devils advocate, and be the customer....

Judging by your statement, why can't you use your pick or machine with a blade to move the snow to the back of my lot? Why can't you just plow it there to begin with?


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

tuney443;1240449 said:


> A picture is worth a thousand words. Just draw a diagram and circle the areas where snow will be placed.Simple,nothing else really to add.


I do that on a lot of sites. Problem, when those ares fill up, The next words out of these owners is "push it over there".


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## paponte (Oct 28, 2003)

Think you need o educate your customers more, and you should also be going over pile locations before even signing the contract so that there is no confusion.


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## cold_and_tired (Dec 18, 2008)

I go over everything with my customer before they even sign the contract.

I tell them where the snow will be pushed and stacked by trucks and that we will have to bring in heavy equipment throughout the year to stack snow. 

I make sure to ask if they have any questions and if they do, I answer them the best I can.

I've never had a complaint from anyone.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Yes, we do all that, I normally print a google earth map and draw in the locations and make it known thats where we are going to pile it. But when you are talking to the hot short property manager prior to the blizzard to get pre approval for snow relocation after the event....and his responses is, "well when your plowing just push it all over there". How do you professionally give him an answer that would hold up in court, how do you word that into your contract, in a manor that isn't "well we can't do that with a plow". I honestly can't think of a good argument, fact is we good plow it to those locations..just it would take way way longer. Snow plowing- defined as removal using a plow....that doesn't really tell anyone anything, or give a reason that we can't do it


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## qualitycut (Jan 13, 2008)

elite1msmith;1241153 said:


> Yes, we do all that, I normally print a google earth map and draw in the locations and make it known thats where we are going to pile it. But when you are talking to the hot short property manager prior to the blizzard to get pre approval for snow relocation after the event....and his responses is, "well when your plowing just push it all over there". How do you professionally give him an answer that would hold up in court, how do you word that into your contract, in a manor that isn't "well we can't do that with a plow". I honestly can't think of a good argument, fact is we good plow it to those locations..just it would take way way longer. Snow plowing- defined as removal using a plow....that doesn't really tell anyone anything, or give a reason that we can't do it


Why not have them sign something when he gives you the approval to do it?


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

elite1msmith;1240694 said:


> I do that on a lot of sites. Problem, when those ares fill up, The next words out of these owners is "push it over there".


I hear you.Dealing with it just slightly now myself.If 1 lot owner doesn't hire me soon to back up/relocate piles with my loader before the next good sized snow fall,I will have to push snow where it was not agreed to be and I will charge him more.


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

we just place the snow where it needs to be at the time of plowing. no hassles with property owners that way.


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## qualitycut (Jan 13, 2008)

dayexco;1241395 said:


> we just place the snow where it needs to be at the time of plowing. no hassles with property owners that way.


On smaller lots with trucks thats not always possible you can only push back so far.


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

qualitycut;1241428 said:


> On smaller lots with trucks thats not always possible you can only push back so far.


it most certainly is if you show up at the site with the equipment necessary to do the job


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

dayexco;1241472 said:


> it most certainly is if you show up at the site with the equipment necessary to do the job


I'm on your side dayexco... I make sure that we have the right equipment for the job, that way this question is never an issue with my customers.
Oh, and I don't want to be out looking for a wheel loader 3 days after it snowed to push and move piles.


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## qualitycut (Jan 13, 2008)

blowerman;1241488 said:


> I'm on your side dayexco... I make sure that we have the right equipment for the job, that way this question is never an issue with my customers.
> Oh, and I don't want to be out looking for a wheel loader 3 days after it snowed to push and move piles.


I agree with you also to a certain extent in a normal winter it isnt and issue this year we have had 60 inches of snow one was a 20 inch snow fall and this is the first week all year we have had any snow melt. If your talking big lots yes only a truck isnt going to cut it. My dads dealership had to hire someone to haul their snow this year that is the first time in the 20 years he has had to do that. Some of the lots we do are downtown and it doesnt matter if you plow with a skid eventually you are going to have to do something with the snow no matter what you do when you plow that much snow.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

The reality is that I don't clear snow for big box stores or mega sized sites. My primary type of property (other than condos) is the mid sized parking lots that have limited room and the customer doesn't want snow stacked in twenty different piles that take up ten parking spaces. I just happen to use wheel loaders to plow lots that I don't want to lose to the guy plowing next door that uses a bobcat with bucket, then if the piles get to big, comes in with a blower on it and makes them smaller. Point is: competitor close by does a good job. What neither one of us is afraid of is losing an account to the guy with a pick up truck and plow who always has a excuse that there is too much snow and he can't push anymore.
Come on guys, you are in the snow business.... Remember, your customer doesn't want to tell you how to clear snow. Mine never have! They also don't want monster invoices when you need to rent machines or truck snow using a 1 ton dump. Somehow when guys are involved in snow removal, the last concern should be "to much snow"... Really?


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

an example. we've had just about record snowfall here this year. there has been a HUGE influx of guys just starting out, pickups/blades...more power to them. except when they clip your pricing by 30% to get a client base...then get in trouble because they're not equipped properly to service the account. one benefit though, we haven't had snow for a week now, and our loader has been swamped stacking for pickup/blade only contractors...NICE $$$$ for us, but i'm sure their customers will not be pleased thinking they hired the guy because of a "supposed" cost savings....only to be invoiced additional money to do it the way it should have been initially. 

dozerman said a mouthful. i hear the word "professional" used on here frequently. i really don't know how to sell groceries or gas, but i DO know how to push snow. and our customers expect that of us.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Speak of the devil...I already got my first...."can we have a meeting on Thursday to discuss this". 3.5 hours loader time, 3 hours truck time for onsite relocation and stacking 

Most of these I'm expecting issues wih are small commercial lots, most were expecting relocation bills of 500 bucks, not 1200. I know it's going to happen "why didn't you just plow it over there". So whats going to be a good argument other than "well we can't"


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

dayexco;1241472 said:


> it most certainly is if you show up at the site with the equipment necessary to do the job


Here's the situation, On this account, Seasonal contract, no limit no blizzard clause, But it does say stacking and relocation are extra. This site is normally plowed with a pick up as it is small. Why would I run a loader over there to plow snow as part of their normal service. The snow was pushed where we could. We ran out of room in some areas. There is a ditch around the other side of the property which is where the loader put the snow. But it can not be plowed there with a truck unless you have a v blade and want to spend 6 hours on a 3/4 acre lot.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

She gave approval for relocation, She asked for an estimate....I told her all depends on the amount but possibly around 500....I told her this expecting 3 hour skid steer time, with predicted snow fall of 16 inches..... Well they had 22 plus drifts 6-7 feet heigh..... Lot was plowed with a truck, it was accessible, But piles were in parking spots, and certain areas truck couldnt punch into. A loader had to be brought in which they approved, and were bugging me for 8 hours after the storm...heck they wanted to be open for business wesday at 6 pm. Which we did for them.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Not to bust your chops, but what is the truck doing for 3 hours? I've moves entire piles at a large grocery store in less than that with 2 quads and a wheel loader. 
Price: 4 truck hours @ $80 per hr. 
2 Wheel loader hours @ $125 per hr.
Total: $410 Based on hourly, but it was a bid job to another company, so it was more than the hourly figure.

I know business is about making money, but the post is because your customer is mad and you need a solution. Comp the work and keep them as a customer for next year, just don't promise them the world and up charge the account.
If it's a seasonal, once again I'd be ticked if you told me you needed more money for a loader.


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

elite1msmith;1240690 said:


> Raymond - My contract has berry similar wording to your above statement, But if I can play devils advocate, and be the customer....
> 
> Judging by your statement, why can't you use your pick or machine with a blade to move the snow to the back of my lot? Why can't you just plow it there to begin with?


To be honest that's not really worded that way in my contract, I just made that up for you. When we get snowfalls of mass quantity, like this year, I do have a clause in my contract that states I will move snow to a more desirable location as I feel necessary if the snowfall requires that to maintain safety, parking, etc. etc. All my customers know when they look out their windows and see the piles getting enormous and creeping into parking spaces that I will likely be around w/ a skid to stack or relocate, it's that simple. I've never had a complaint about time spent or money. If I do get a complaint from them it's likely they were unhappy w/ the service already and just looking for a reason to nit pick. I was a little concerned sending out my invoices from January but as of today I am paid up on all but 4 of them and not a single complaint. I think people are just happy to have good service and willing to pay for it as opposed to saving a buck and running the risk of a sloppy lot.

As far as using the "right equipment." You can't justify using a loader on a 10k sq. ft. lot or even a 20k sq. ft. lot for that matter if I can get in and out in 15min w/ a pickup and have the snow placed in an acceptable location 9 out of 10 winters. I think the loader has it's place but there are many many locations where it's simply not economical to use it. This winter some of the lots that have NEVER needed snow stacked or relocated are needing it. We are over 90" of snow this year and some lots may only have 2 locations at the end of a parking space say 20'x12x to stack the snow. You can bring a loader from day one if you want but I'll bet you can do it cheaper w/ a pickup each storm and charge accordingly for the loader as needed to stack snow. I'm not saying this is the case w/ ALL lots or even MOST lots, but as a rule I just don't see the need for a loader on these smaller say less than 1/2 acre lots.


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

Raymond S.;1241743 said:


> As far as using the "right equipment." You can't justify using a loader on a 10k sq. ft. lot or even a 20k sq. ft. lot for that matter if I can get in and out in 15min w/ a pickup and have the snow placed in an acceptable location 9 out of 10 winters. I think the loader has it's place but there are many many locations where it's simply not economical to use it.


we run a loader/pusher, pickup/blade per crew...we can justify it easily...loader/pusher makes all the hog passes, stacks..pickup/blade cleans up the finger drifts left by the loader. everybody has their own method to their madness, i guess....i just feel ours works extremely well. and when we leave the lot, we're done


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## Raymond S. (Jan 8, 2008)

I guess the location of your accounts would make a large impact on the efficiency also. I can get between lots easier and likely w/ a lot less fuel w/ a pickup than a loader day in and day out. If your lots are close and you're already driving by w/ the loader then yes I could see where it works and eliminates the need for going back w/ the loader later as needed.


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## dayexco (Oct 30, 2003)

Raymond S.;1241757 said:


> I guess the location of your accounts would make a large impact on the efficiency also.


that is a HUGE factor. i live in a town of 20k people...all of our accts are in a 4 mile radius, and we do them all on a systematic route. were i beating a loader 15 miles down the road through heavy traffic to service 1 acct...i would probably drop that account, or rethink my madness


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

dayexco;1241762 said:


> that is a HUGE factor. i live in a town of 20k people...all of our accts are in a 4 mile radius, and we do them all on a systematic route. were i beating a loader 15 miles down the road through heavy traffic to service 1 acct...i would probably drop that account, or rethink my madness


This is similar to why I get away with loaders and pushers. Village of 30k and all accounts are within 6 miles at the most. 
It's not that I don't think trucks have there place, but the reality is that I can't stand $40-50K trucks that depreciate faster than heavy equipment and get beat to death with a plow on the front. Loaders are not that expensive! You just can't chase all over the country side to supposedly make (or not) a buck.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

blowerman;1241658 said:


> Not to bust your chops, but what is the truck doing for 3 hours? I've moves entire piles at a large grocery store in less than that with 2 quads and a wheel loader.
> Price: 4 truck hours @ $80 per hr.
> 2 Wheel loader hours @ $125 per hr.
> Total: $410 Based on hourly, but it was a bid job to another company, so it was more than the hourly figure.
> ...


We used the truck to clean up the area after each pile was moved, and I addition we used it at a 90 degree angle to the loader so as the loader pick up a bite and turned to dump it, the truck was pushing the pile back together thus making it faster for the loader. There was only 30 mins the truck sat idle. Both peaces were used fully and quickly. We estimate the volume of snow moved at over 500 cubic yards


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## Dissociative (Feb 28, 2007)

dayexco;1241762 said:


> that is a HUGE factor. i live in a town of 20k people...all of our accts are in a 4 mile radius, and we do them all on a systematic route. were i beating a loader 15 miles down the road through heavy traffic to service 1 acct...i would probably drop that account, or rethink my madness


And then there is the guy on here who runs nothing but LARGE tractors with blowers because he as well can get away with driving them site to site.

I would LOVE to see you guys plow in a more urban setting. See how you fair plowing lots in suburban hell Chicago. It's really not fair to come down all over the truck/blade guys just because your market is different and allows you to run HUGE machines to every site.

Here in the city world we can only really use trucks and drag around a bobcat to help when needed.

Here in the city world they don't give you enough room to push back or relocate the snow the first time, there is not enough parking when it's summer and there is almost always landscaping ran right up to the curbs that you CAN'T just pile on top of and destroy so you need to pile and relocate later. It's the only way.

You guys are out of line to be telling people "do it right the first time" when you are in a completely different plowing situation. The OP has a valid question that happens all the time in a more urban setting, i just think you big toy boys haven't ever had to deal with that kind of stuff. Come on down to the Sh1tty City and see how well you do trying to run your loader from site to site....unless its a all out blizzard your not gonna get away with that. Hell even most smaller suburbs of Chicago ain't gonna tolerate full size loaders (mabey even with push boxes???) bumbling down the roads from site to site....not happening here..

so unless your gonna low boy that stuff to every site you would be using trucks just like the rest of us....


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

This issue in the Chicago land areas, most snow fall is less than 2 inches. We see 3-4 storms at 4 inches, and maybe an 8 inch storm once per year. That's it. We don't get these big storms, gist a bunch of smaller ones. I'm not dumb enough to put a 40,000 skid loader on a site that is less than 2 acres, the numbers and math just don't work. Out here you see loaders on 10 acre plus parking lots, skid steers helping out the loaders, Other than that, 99% is done with trucks. Hence the bid number is given with using a truck in mind. It took almost a full week for for the entire clean up and snow stacking and relocation to be completed. And thugs not just my company. I tried calling around for additional skid steers, and EVERY rental store was sold out until Monday. Heck the cities still don't have roads cleared curb to curb like they normally do. 

Stacking and relocation on these smaller sites is very rare. Most of the time the snow piles start melting before the next big snow event. I called ahead and got the ok for the extra work. I gave them an estimate based on 16 inches of snow that were perdicted. We had way more, The drifting at this site was no less than 5-6 feet along the back side. We pushed it with trucks, I got a loader with a pusher to come with and finish opening up the lot. The relocation took place the next day. They saw us do it, they saw that we worked quickly, They just don't like the bill. The additional hourly rates for equiptment were posted in the contract that they signed. They were billed those rates.

But again I ask, on paper or even in a verbal conversation, how do you explain to your customer that a truck with a blade can not possibly push all the snow on the property into a single area, around 2 corners. 

We had piles on the enteeance ways from the pick up trucks plowing over 6 feet tall, that's not my first choice to put snow. I had a friend with a company that had received phone calls from the local police department that the piles caused a visibility issue and they HAD to be moved. Around here we can't push across the street, iv been warned too many times by the city guys. The other day a medium size loader was driving down a road pulled over


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

You are in a tough situation. All your ducks were in a row, it's tough for a customer to argue about the bill based on the service you provided. 
Is this something that will cause them to hire someone different next year? Do you need to or is it worth making some kind of financial concession with the customer. Can you make one?

While I get the argument about loaders in the city, I'm not in the country. I do run a 14 ft. pusher down the road at night, but when daylight hits you better be off the road if it's not a huge storm. Otherwise I run a 12 ft. pusher that stays within the lanes (most of the time).
They do make folding pushers and retractable plows and with speeds in the mid 20's, it's not as if I'm holding up traffic in a urban or city/suburb center. 
Pick up trucks can be a cost effective way to clear snow in lighter conditions, but if you do own a loader, it becomes easier to absorb cost in the event of customer disputes or complaints even if it's not your fault.


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

OK, heres my opinion (take it for what its worth)...... we have many big events over the span of the winter season (and by big events, I mean 12+ inches of snow). These are common in Maine.... I don't have a "blizzard" clause in my contracts (for the reasons your running into now)... my seasonals, I just suck it up and do them... per push is really just as easy.. its so much 1-3, 3-6, 6-9, 9-12, and 12+.... Now this is were My contract will be very clear.. for every inch above 12" it will be "X" amount per inch in addition to the 12" figure... whatever NOAA states fell in inches is what I bill out... easy......Before the season starts we go over snow placement ( I don't care what type of snow we're getting, its going where I told them I would put it in the contract). Should that area become full, additional costs per hour per machine will occur for me to remove the snow...I get their approval to remove before I start and get the job done....... Havn't had a complaint in 15 years

This probably won't help you this year but maybe you can change your contracts to reflect something like this in the future ..... It makes life soooo much easier.... for you and the customer..

Good luck!


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