# Didn't win small lot bid, what is a fair price?



## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

I didn't win a bid for a small commercial lot located near the cities of Minnesota. I am really curious to see what others feel would be a fair, high quality monthly price from Nov. 15 to Apr. 15 (5 months, 5 billing cycles on the 15th of each month). The winning bid got it for $350.00/month, or $1,750 for the season.

Details include:

Plowing every 2-3 inches
Lot cleared by 6AM
Salting/sanding (entire lot)
Shoveling front entrance, in front of loading docks, and steps/landing on right side of building
Plowing of windrows at lot entrances after city plow trucks, if needed
Average snowfall of 55 inches
Obstacles include guard rail between loading docks, and fully curbed lot
Do not have dimensions right now

I had multiple conversations with the owner and he wanted a quality, reliable, on time job performed - basically "you take care of it, I don't want to worry about it, and I'll write the checks." After submitting my bid and more follow up conversations he liked my bid, liked my agreement, and then decided to get another bid at the last second (the winning bid).

My bid came in at $625.00 per month, or $3,125 for 5 months. Based on what type of quality work he insisted on, the quality of work I perform, and the amount of times I would have to visit the site to plow the lot and plow the entrances, salt/sand/other expenses, I felt like this was a fair price. Ultimately I thanked him for his time, to call me if something happens, and to keep me in mind for the future.

I am not new to plowing (have worked for and subbed for others for several years) but relatively new to commercial bidding. What are your thoughts on this lot and my price? Am I way too high? I refuse to lowball and/or work for peanuts, and don't want to devalue plowing services. Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

If someone.else has close jobs you're going.to lose everytime.


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## blowerman (Dec 24, 2007)

Longae29;1351944 said:


> If someone.else has close jobs you're going.to lose everytime.


No Deer, so you're up at night answering questions on plowsite?

But as to what Longae said, sometimes a tight route means the competitor is able to have a much lower price.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Is that with salt included wow I would be getting $400 or more per storm be glad u did not get it. How do people give unlimited salt in a contract? That would cost you $50 in salt at least per application so if you salt 4 times a month or 1 time a week that guy is going to lose money even at your price you would not make any money


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I can't sleep at night worrying everyone on plowsite is ok.......and I shot a real nice buck bowhunting and 3/5 guys got bucks yesterday morning so the rest of the season is all about drinking


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## CGM Inc. (Dec 15, 2008)

I say your price was good not knowing your area. I stay in bed for the price that got it.

Even if someone has multiple properties close by that doesn't reduce liability!
There is a cost for performing the work, be ready to go 24/7 over a 5 month term and be liable for accidents caused by weather or nonperformance of us.


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## cmo18 (Mar 10, 2008)

ponyboy;1352069 said:


> Is that with salt included wow I would be getting $400 or more per storm be glad u did not get it. How do people give unlimited salt in a contract? That would cost you $50 in salt at least per application so if you salt 4 times a month or 1 time a week that guy is going to lose money even at your price you would not make any money


400$ a storm??!! that lot would not take more than an hour


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## gwhalen3 (Jan 15, 2010)

You're around $170 per push average with sanding and shoveling. Seems on target to me. Providing you get the 55 inches you avg.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Yes plus salt plus some shoveling plus calcium on walk or steps plus you will be there probally 2 or 3 times a storm yes 
Ishow up with a $60000 truck a $5000 salter a guy who gets $15 hour to shovel a bag og calcium $13 ton of salt $90. These are my costs I bill 
Truck with salter $150 hr
Labor to shovel $45 a man hour 
Calcium per bag $40 
Salt $225 a ton
That is what I charge so yes I would be at $400 a storm
Btw I charge $100 a inch once the snow goes over 10 inches 
I'm in this business to make money not work for free


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

What I have found is that people looking for plowing on commercial lots say they want upmost quality and service so they do not have to worry about anything at all... And thennnn they get a low low price and they are too tempted by the low price and see all the "money" they are going to save, and cant resist giving it a try. Happens to me quite often.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

If I'm missing something ,that less then 20 minutes to plow 5 minutes to shovel.Salt ,your not going to salt every time.My arera your lucky to make 2k on the season for it.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

My area they want to see black top most if not all of the storm and might be more than 20 to plow depends what cars are there I would say 30-45 I guess I'm lucky then 
I agree they go with the cheapest that is why they own the proprietary where we do the work at


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## cmo18 (Mar 10, 2008)

ponyboy;1352137 said:


> Yes plus salt plus some shoveling plus calcium on walk or steps plus you will be there probally 2 or 3 times a storm yes
> Ishow up with a $60000 truck a $5000 salter a guy who gets $15 hour to shovel a bag og calcium $13 ton of salt $90. These are my costs I bill
> Truck with salter $150 hr
> Labor to shovel $45 a man hour
> ...


Its crazy how big of a price differences from me to you.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

ponyboy;1352137 said:


> Yes plus salt plus some shoveling plus calcium on walk or steps plus you will be there probally 2 or 3 times a storm yes
> Ishow up with a $60000 truck a $5000 salter a guy who gets $15 hour to shovel a bag og calcium $13 ton of salt $90. These are my costs I bill
> Truck with salter $150 hr
> Labor to shovel $45 a man hour
> ...


How much is your truck without a salter on it? Your not putting a ton on that lot.Are you charging a 1 hr minimum to shovel?


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Sorry mason dump with a salter $150
pick up $90

No my contract say per application and I base it upon each lot 

Yes everything has a minimum my shovled gets paid weather he sirs in the truck or he is outside working


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Like I asked before how do people give an unlimited amount of salt in a contract? Are you hopping not to lose money there has to be limits on everything in your contract you can't chance loosing money. I have broke even but I will not lose money so over the years I have learned what to charge and what my prices need to be


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Kayem, you were competitively priced. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. You would lose more sleep if a slip and fall occured on an account where you grossed  $3125. Don't let the loss of a bid change your way of bidding too much.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Kayem;1351936 said:


> I had multiple conversations with the owner and he wanted a quality, reliable, on time job performed - basically "you take care of it, I don't want to worry about it, and I'll write the checks." After submitting my bid and more follow up conversations he liked my bid, liked my agreement, and then decided to get another bid at the last second (the winning bid).
> 
> My bid came in at $625.00 per month, or $3,125 for 5 months. Based on what type of quality work he insisted on, the quality of work I perform, and the amount of times I would have to visit the site to plow the lot and plow the entrances, salt/sand/other expenses, I felt like this was a fair price. Ultimately I thanked him for his time, to call me if something happens, and to keep me in mind for the future.
> .





Jguck25;1352155 said:


> What I have found is that people looking for plowing on commercial lots say they want upmost quality and service so they do not have to worry about anything at all... And thennnn they get a low low price and they are too tempted by the low price and see all the "money" they are going to save, and cant resist giving it a try. Happens to me quite often.


What they want and what they want to pay for it are 2 different things.And that's why you didn't get this one.


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

I would say your numbers are not to high.


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

grandview;1352174 said:


> If I'm missing something ,that less then 20 minutes to plow 5 minutes to shovel.Salt ,your not going to salt every time.QUOTE]
> 
> I agree, it won't be salted every time. The lot will be done after the snow ends and the entrance/stairs will be done during the snow fall, if needed. I figured less than 30 minutes for plowing/shoveling/salting walks. Extra for salting lot.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's input on this lot. I didn't think i was too far off on the pricing, and didn't even adjust my prices to counter offer the other bid's price. There was no way I could even come close to it. I'm curious to see how well it's serviced once we get some decent snow.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

How many times a season would that place have to be plowed?


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

grandview;1353314 said:


> How many times a season would that place have to be plowed?


Based on the average snowfall of 55 inches (got 67 or something last year), full plowing every 2-3 inches, 20-25 visits. Then drifting clean-ups and entrance clean-ups as needed. Figure around 12 short visits for drifting/entrance clean-ups.


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

P.S. Lot size is approximately .2 acres for anyone interested.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Realistically you'd be there about less then 20 times a season,I doubt you get there every 2 inches.So it would work out about 100 a plow for it.


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

Yeah, I agree with how I may not have been there every 2 inches. Even at 4-6 inches, which will take longer to do than 2, it should still average out pretty well when it comes to overall amount of time spent on the lot during the season. 

Bottom line, I'm not going to lose sleep over it (literally!) and maybe I can get it in the future, at a realistic price to make money on it.


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## SSS Inc. (Oct 18, 2010)

I'm not sure what part of minnesota you are in but in the Minneapolis area we had around 90" last season. With that being said two storms added up to about 35" of that. I would guess, as I don't have our statistics in front of me, that we plowed no site more than 20 times. A typical winter with 55" and a 2" trigger is only going to give you around 12 plowings. We get maybe one storm over 12". Most are clippers that yield 2-4". Atleast 10" of the season total are never plowed (early and late season as well as all those pesky 1"ers). While I don't like the idea of unlimited salting the price on that little lot is pretty realistic in the city. I'm guessing cars are not an issue as this would be plowed mostly during off hours. 
Do you currently have any commercial lots that you can rely on for production rates?


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

Are you saying the winning price of $1750 is realistic for a lot that size? Or my price? As far as cars in the lot...I'd be lucky to even get my truck in the lot to even make one pass with how many cars they pack in there during business hours.

You've given me some more things to consider when pricing out future work. No, I do not have any other commercial lots that have been serviced under my own quotes in past years. I have one other for this year along with a few residentials, on top of subbing, and every detail will be documented for future purposes. I got a really slow start on advertising/looking for work this year because I was working long days, 7 days a week this summer and could not find the time...unfortunately.

I'm used to getting a call and being on site within 20 minutes working/subbing for others, and have plenty of confidence in the quality of work I do. However, finding work and quoting it with an appropriate price is a whole different story, when there are 100 different approaches on quoting that can be taken. I think I need to just take another look on how I quote and apply that to future bids. (FYI, taking 20-25 visits times X amount and coming up with a total price was not how I originally quoted this lot).


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Business hours most of the time a sweep before they go to lunch and one when they go home,clean up when empty .Season pricing is about right, how much per push times about how many plowing plus a few extra.


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## SSS Inc. (Oct 18, 2010)

Again, I'm not sure on the unlimited salting part of the equation but the price that got the job doesn't seem that off to me. As mentioned earlier its all about who is plowing right next door or doing a whole bunch in the area. It may seem cheap to you but the guy with 5 properties in the area is probably doing pretty good at that price. I think you will find that even 1 or 2 commercial sites will help you greatly for bidding next year. Snowplowing commercial properties in MN can be quite different than other regions. Most properties are not expected to be black within a day. Most small commercial and industrial sites will be plowed only after hours. There are exceptions but this is the general rule of thumb. My guess on this property is that you would plow it once a night or storm meaning 12-14 plowings is a pretty typical winter. If I were you I would try to snag as many per push contracts as possible until you figure out your costs more. Seasonal is hard to estimate if you don't have a long history behind you.. My guess is that you will find a majority of our storms you would have this particular lot cleared in 20 minutes + shovel and salt. I am actually surprised this lot will be salted every time. We have dozens of jobs that don't salt at all, they don't want it. Pretty common the closer you get to the city. Its Mn, we expect it to be icy and snowy. I live in minneapolis and am always surprised when they don't even plow our streets. Did this site get plowed in the last storm?


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Kayem;1353361 said:


> P.S. Lot size is approximately .2 acres for anyone interested.


Lot size isn't important it matters how much pavement is there. The lot isn't very big, your better off to measure things so you have exact sq/ft and then you have something to go by for future reference. Best of luck, you'll figure it all out soon enough.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Sq feet is bs 
It depends on how many obstacles are in the way 
Sometimes smaller ones are harder


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

ponyboy;1354765 said:


> Sq feet is bs
> It depends on how many obstacles are in the way
> Sometimes smaller ones are harder


Yes and that's why you use sq/ft and then rate the lots on a scale of 1-4. 1 being very easy and 4 being extremely difficult.


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## SSS Inc. (Oct 18, 2010)

JD Dave;1354799 said:


> Yes and that's why you use sq/ft and then rate the lots on a scale of 1-4. 1 being very easy and 4 being extremely difficult.


JD you're right on this one. Sq. feet and some sort of difficulty rating is key on any property. Most veterans can take a look on a property this small and be withing a handful of minutes .


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Your price is dirt cheap I think. Around here (the stinky arm pit capital of plowing) I would have bid that around 5k without sidewalks. That is based on our snowfall average totals which is anywhere from 90-130". Maybe your price was too cheap and didn't instill much confidence in him.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

That is what I said Too cheap


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

SSS Inc.;1354546 said:


> Did this site get plowed in the last storm?


I'm not sure, I doubt it seeing as I think less than 2 inches fell in Plymouth (where the lot is) combined with it melting off within 2 days. I was going to check this afternoon as I was driving through but figured it would be too hard to tell by this point, I was also in kind of in a hurry.



> Lot size isn't important it matters how much pavement is there.


.2 acres is the pavement. (8712 sq. ft.) This is approximate size plus shoveling. But yes, physically measuring the lot would yield a more reliable number.



> Your price is dirt cheap I think. Around here (the stinky arm pit capital of plowing) I would have bid that around 5k without sidewalks. That is based on our snowfall average totals which is anywhere from 90-130". Maybe your price was too cheap and didn't instill much confidence in him.


At 130" yes it'd be cheap. If he thought my price was too cheap when I quoted him, then I cant imagine why he'd go with the $1750 quote (when it comes to instilling confidence).

I know this is just a piddly small lot not worth crap to many people but I appreciate everyone even taking the time to help me out. When people state that if you have several lots in the same "business neighborhood" you can keep prices down, I completely understand this concept and agree with it. My question is this: A person/company has to start at one and move up to several lots in the area (hopefully). Seeing as each manager, business owner, etc. can choose whoever they want as their plow guy, how can you land several lots in the area to keep price down without first landing the first lot? If this guy chose me, and it was my only lot in the area, and paid $3125 that makes it worthwhile. Then next year I land two more on the same street because they see I do a good job, then I understand I can start lowering my prices on all 3. If I initially lowered my price to $1750 just to get the lot, then I would be screwed until and IF I land more work close by. That could take several years to keep plugging away at a small density area. Seems like getting your foot in the door is the biggest obstacle. I hope I explained this scenario well.


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## sectlandscaping (Sep 7, 2009)

You wouldnt have to beat the other price. You just have to justify your rate and service. I wouldve went with I have a truck dedicated to this site. In other words you will be the first and last lot I service. You couldve said the best I can do is meet you in the middle at $2450. That price is still fair and you wouldve made out unless a 100" fell.


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

sectlandscaping;1354961 said:


> You wouldnt have to beat the other price. You just have to justify your rate and service. I wouldve went with I have a truck dedicated to this site. In other words you will be the first and last lot I service. You couldve said the best I can do is meet you in the middle at $2450. That price is still fair and you wouldve made out unless a 100" fell.


I'll definitely keep that in mind for future quotes.


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## Stuffdeer (Dec 26, 2005)

ponyboy;1352137 said:


> Yes plus salt plus some shoveling plus calcium on walk or steps plus you will be there probally 2 or 3 times a storm yes
> Ishow up with a $60000 truck a $5000 salter a guy who gets $15 hour to shovel a bag og calcium $13 ton of salt $90. These are my costs I bill
> Truck with salter $150 hr
> Labor to shovel $45 a man hour
> ...


I can make money on that lot at 500 a month...

If you think it'd take one truck with two guys to shovel, plow, and sidewalk salt over an hour, you are crazy and probably should reconsider your entrance to this business.

With my truck, plow, salter, and ME doing the sidewalks, I'd be in and out in less then 15 minutes. Guaranteed.

Maybe you should reconsider your 60,000 truck? Try and cut your costs, so you can be a little more competitive.

You said 400 per storm? The OP said they plow on average 20 to 25 times...We'll pick 22...So your monthly price would be in the area of 1760? More then what he is paying for the whole season...

I give you credit if you are making over 500 an hour, and will buy you a ticket and home in my area to be my salesman. But I highly doubt you are getting paid that much!


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Wow in business for over 25 years the fact that I can afford 5 $60,000 trucks I think m fine 
I said one guy shoveling 
We don't rush we take our time for safety 
Every year I buy a new skid or truck because the work keeps coming in
People need to learn what it really cost to plow not just time it takes
I add up all my expenses truck insurance wear and tear on truck etc.. 
Will you really make money at $500 no will you have some cash in your pocket for the winter sure but that is not profit 
But thanks for your suggestion may I suggest you try raising your prices so you can get a new truck or two or just so you can make a profit


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Stuffdeer;1355067 said:


> I can make money on that lot at 500 a month...
> 
> If you think it'd take one truck with two guys to shovel, plow, and sidewalk salt over an hour, you are crazy and probably should reconsider your entrance to this business.
> 
> ...


This is why asking for pricing on here is kind of a waste of time. Just use the info and experience you get this year for next season. I agree with Stuffdeer, with one guy, maybe 10-15 minutes for plowing and another 10-15 minutes for shoveling and a few minutes to apply salt BUT even given your average of 55 inches (as someone else said) your still over 3k at plowing etc. 20 times, 1700 bucks seems not worth it at all unless the plan is to plow it 10 times a season.


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## Stuffdeer (Dec 26, 2005)

ponyboy;1355079 said:


> Wow in business for over 25 years the fact that I can afford 5 $60,000 trucks I think m fine
> I said one guy shoveling
> We don't rush we take our time for safety
> Every year I buy a new skid or truck because the work keeps coming in
> ...


And how do YOU know I won't be making a profit off of 500 a month?

As YOU said, know your expenses.

I DO, and that is why I said, I could make a profit off 500 a month off that lot.


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## Stuffdeer (Dec 26, 2005)

Brian Young;1355081 said:


> This is why asking for pricing on here is kind of a waste of time. Just use the info and experience you get this year for next season. I agree with Stuffdeer, with one guy, maybe 10-15 minutes for plowing and another 10-15 minutes for shoveling and a few minutes to apply salt BUT even given your average of 55 inches (as someone else said) your still over 3k at plowing etc. 20 times, 1700 bucks seems not worth it at all unless the plan is to plow it 10 times a season.


Exactly...and even at 500 a month, you are still at 2500 for the season.

1700 is definitely cheap, but what the OP bid it at, I would say was a tad high. Somewhere right in the middle of the two prices would be ideal, for both the contractor, and the business owner.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Well if you are making profit then I'm glad for you 
Be glad for me that i make more of a profit


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Yeah, somewhere right around 2500-3000 would have been a fair price.


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## Stuffdeer (Dec 26, 2005)

ponyboy;1355091 said:


> Well if you are making profit then I'm glad for you
> Be glad for me that i make more of a profit


I could really careless about what you make. As long as I am making money, I am happy.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

I wad trying to be nice you sound jealous and bitter that you can't sell your self better than I can


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## Stuffdeer (Dec 26, 2005)

ponyboy;1355122 said:


> I wad trying to be nice you sound jealous and bitter that you can't sell your self better than I can


Let me rephrase then...

If I am making money, I am happy.

If I sound jealous and bitter, I apologize. I am far from that...


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

Let's just all agree that experience, overhead, area prices, area snowfall, area density, company size, individual clientel, and what you're looking to ultimately gross and/or net per hour can make each one of our prices vary greatly. It comes down to knowing your own prices to make a profit and hopefully a decent living.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

When I bid I also consider how long the place is open. So if they are gone by 6pm closed on weekends and holidays,i'll give a better price the if they are open 24hrs or till 9 at night.


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

grandview;1355454 said:


> When I bid I also consider how long the place is open. So if they are gone by 6pm closed on weekends and holidays,i'll give a better price the if they are open 24hrs or till 9 at night.


I assume because of multiple visits/cleanups as cars come and go and requires you to work around them. Must be an annoyance!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

You were over thinking this lot. It's a quick in and out. Couple of passes if there is a lot of snow during the day.


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

grandview;1355471 said:


> You were over thinking this lot. It's a quick in and out. Couple of passes if there is a lot of snow during the day.


I think so too, and at too high of a price. I will provide him a new quote before the end of winter before he reisigns with an adjusted price and work to get some more lots in his area. I think I was too worried about making a profit where I overbid it so that I wouldn't have to service it all winter while cutting my own throat. For all I know this other company agreed to do it only at night and during non business hours, and maybe 2-3 times during snowstorms with a lot of accumulation. I think my overall quote was attempting to suite me and not so much the customer and the price reflected that. I'll try again come end of winter.


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

Funny I saw this. I am almos positive I know the site and we bid it at 1725. We won it for a day then was called to be told it went to someone else cheaper. As for the 1725 the vs your bid specs. They are completly differnt.
The seasonal price covers plowing and shoveling all salting is billed per time. 
At this time we do not do the lot. I can tell you the guy who did it last year did it for 175 a month or less again no salt included. we struggled to raise the price to 345.That was a negotiation down from $425 I believe. As per our spec and convos the lot get salt a few times a year same with walks and so on.
As for price and proximity the sub that would do this lot does one across the street and was happy to do it cheap. Anyways lots to the situation and it is a good example of why plow pricing is rarley apples to apples.


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

ryde307;1355570 said:


> Funny I saw this. I am almos positive I know the site and we bid it at 1725. We won it for a day then was called to be told it went to someone else cheaper. As for the 1725 the vs your bid specs. They are completly differnt.
> The seasonal price covers plowing and shoveling all salting is billed per time.
> At this time we do not do the lot. I can tell you the guy who did it last year did it for 175 a month or less again no salt included. we struggled to raise the price to 345.That was a negotiation down from $425 I believe. As per our spec and convos the lot get salt a few times a year same with walks and so on.
> As for price and proximity the sub that would do this lot does one across the street and was happy to do it cheap. Anyways lots to the situation and it is a good example of why plow pricing is rarley apples to apples.


Wow, that is crazy, if it is the same lot. I wonder if he told you my quote was 425 when it was actually 625 just to get you that much cheaper (or let's not leave out the idea that someone else did in fact quote it for 425). After sending him the quote and contract he sounded very pleased and said everything looked good, making it seem like it was a done deal. Little did I know... It makes me feel like I was on the right path at least, but when working for the "crazies" there's nothing you can do unless you want to work for beer money. Even if you did land this site (assuming all this is true) you'll only have it for the one year.


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## ryde307 (Dec 3, 2009)

It was originally bid at $425 by us we negotiated to $345. That was done. Someone else bid it less and is now doing it I do not know anymore about that.

As for pricing $345 per month plus $70 per salt application using your specs would give about 2.5 applications per month or $175. 175 plus the 345 gives you $520 would be a more comparable price yours to mine. Again we are not doing this site and am not concerned about getting it in the future or not. For us it is somewhat out of the way and one of our subs would do the lot as he does one accross the street. So again minimal money in it for us more trying to help the sub with a bit more work.

Anyways my point in responding and giving this info is just showing more proof on why selling snow service is difficult. Prices vary for many differnt reasons be it overhead, proximity to a lot, profit margins, sheer desire to plow a certain site, or differnt understandings of expectations. You were told the lot went for $345 which is true but that does not compare to your price because one includes salt one does not. In a perfect world all businesses would have sec sheets you fill out and return to make it more apples to apples but its not. So time spent meeting in person if possible to explain the details of prices and what to expect from those prices is best. in the case of this lot it was all done through email.


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## Kayem (May 13, 2011)

Gotchya, thanks for clearing that up. Welp, out of sight out of mind now!


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