# Help with pricing



## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

HI IM NEW TO COMMERCIAL PLOWING AND I HAVE TO BID ON A COUPLE OF OFFICE BUILDINGS THIS YEAR AND I HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW LONG THEY WILL TAKE ME BUT IM NOT SURE WHAT I SHOULD BE GETTING PER HOUR FOR MY TRUCK. I HAVE AN 01 HALF TON DODGE WITH A 7.5 FISHER MINUTE MOUNT. AND IM THINKING ABOUT GETTING A TAILGATE SALTER BUT THATS A WHOLE OTHER THREAD. BUT ANYWAYS I KNOW THE ONE LOT WILL TAKE ME LIKE MAYBE 40 MINUTES WITH A GOOD SNOW STORM AND THE OTHER WOULD TAKE ME PROBABLY CLOSER TO 2 HOURS IF I DO WELL BUT IM NOT SURE WHAT I SHOULD BE GETTING PER HOUR FOR MY TRUCK TO CALULATE MY BIDS. I HAVE INSURANCE AND FUEL AND MAINTENANCE COSTS. I KNOW I COULD GET 35 TO 45 AND HOUR SUBBING OUT FOR OTHER PEOPLE BUT I WANNA TRY IT ON MY OWN IF POSSIBLE. SO ANY IDEAS ON WHAT THE HOURLY RATE IS PER HOUR IN THE ERIE PA AREA? ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED. IM NOT A LOWBALLER OR TRYING TO $#^& ANY OTHER GUYS I AM ONLY TRYING TO BID ON 2 OR 3 OFFICE BUILDINGS THAT I FIGURE WILL KEEP ME MORE THAN BUSY DURING GOOD STORMS SO ANY HELP WOULD BE AWESOME.....THANKS FOR LOOKING


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## Wayne Volz (Mar 1, 2002)

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Add our "Know why you charge what you charge" CD to this package and you will have the ability to know and understand your break-even point for your company based on your overhead and expenses.

Go to www.profitsareus.com or call us at 800-845-0499 to order. Feel free to call us with any questions you might have as well. Being a full-service lawn & landscaping business myself since 1979, I know what a contractor is looking for; something simple, accurate and professional. This package is it. Call and mention this post and receive free priority shipping.


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## badabing1512 (Aug 28, 2008)

My eyes hurt


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

well i sure am sorry if that is because of my long post. my eyes hurt as well from reading all the post on here looking for information on snowplowing.


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

well ive waited all day and no responses. cmon guys chime in.................?


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

Don't type in all caps. Noone likes that. Also, noone is going to tell you how much to charge. You have a small truck and small plow. Try to get at least $80 an hour.


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

Well sorry about that I didnt know that haha. maybe thats why nobody has responded. Im not asking what to charge for the lots either im just trying to get an idea of what the average half ton with a 7.5 foot fisher is worth by the hour. Like i said before i know i can get anywhere from 35 to 45 an hour subbing but I could use the money i could make by myself more. I think 80 sounds a little high dont it? if places are paying thier subs 35 an hour they cant be charging over twice that rate can they? Im not trying to lowball either like i said i have a couple of small places im looking to do and im in ERIE PA just would like to know what i should be expecting per hour for my services. im not out trying to steal peoples work. im a one man crew with one truck just trying to get through winter with three kids but i would prefer not to be out there making a complete a%# out of my self while trying to make some money. any help would be awesome.


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

No one will pay you 80$ pr hour with that, you'll need some years of plowing expirence and a bigger plow before you get that. Before you go asking what we think you should get pr hour, why don't you factor in some stuff (you'll need to know math for this) you'll wanna factor in all your bussiness expenses and a determined percentage for each. Then throw in some overhead and you've got the basis of what you need to charge pr hour. But if you work for someone your first year (I think you should) their goig to determine a price for you and it's probably going to be under 45$. Get a salter and you'll increase your chances of getting more money. Ok i have homework to do so peace out! 

Oh join sima!!! 
And snow care for troops.


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## Rc2505 (Feb 5, 2007)

It doesn't matter what I get for a 1/2 ton truck with a 7 1/2 foot plow. The only thing that matters is if you can make a profit at what your charging for your equipment. You need to know your costs per hour to operate your truck. If you know that, then your 10 steps ahead of anyone that doesn't know. Get a rough idea of how much fuel per hour you use, figure out how long you should expect your truck to last before replacing it, same with your plow. You have to know what your overhead is for billing, phones, shop, and so on. Don't forget to add your labor rates, your commercial insurance, workers comp, taxes, the list goes on and on. All that get added up divided and then you throw a reasonable profit on it and bam your magical number appears and then you can start bidding. Figure out how long it will take for each lot, add in some time for busy lots, and then multiply that by your hourly rate, and place the bid. Every company here has different cost, depending if they already own the truck and equipment, or if they are paying off loans for the same, the number of employees, and so on. So you see it doesn't matter what the guy next door is charging, it only matters what your costs are, and if you can be competive at those rates.


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## DaytonBioLawns (May 20, 2010)

You _could _ make more money doing it by yourself. What is your experience? are you a sub and have you sub'd? How long have you been plowing? Is your rig reliable and efficient? that kinda stuff. Should you really be on your own...is it healthy for the area's business'?


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## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Rc2505;1075485 said:


> It doesn't matter what I get for a 1/2 ton truck with a 7 1/2 foot plow. The only thing that matters is if you can make a profit at what your charging for your equipment. You need to know your costs per hour to operate your truck. If you know that, then your 10 steps ahead of anyone that doesn't know. Get a rough idea of how much fuel per hour you use, figure out how long you should expect your truck to last before replacing it, same with your plow. You have to know what your overhead is for billing, phones, shop, and so on. Don't forget to add your labor rates, your commercial insurance, workers comp, taxes, the list goes on and on. All that get added up divided and then you throw a reasonable profit on it and bam your magical number appears and then you can start bidding. Figure out how long it will take for each lot, add in some time for busy lots, and then multiply that by your hourly rate, and place the bid. Every company here has different cost, depending if they already own the truck and equipment, or if they are paying off loans for the same, the number of employees, and so on. So you see it doesn't matter what the guy next door is charging, it only matters what your costs are, and if you can be competive at those rates.


taxes? What the heck are those things???


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

well i appreciate the input. This will be my second year plowing. last year i had like 10 to 15 residential drives for my self. i have been doing lawn care for three years now on the side i was a full time welder for a big company so i only did it on the side. but i have been laid off since april of this year and I am going to need the income this winter so i bought a 2 million dollar GL policy for landscape and snowplowing. the whole reason i got into plowing last year was i had a guy i went to school with who runs a pretty successful excavating company tell me if i got a plow he would give me 45 an hour to sub. so 2500 dollars later i had a 7.5 foot fisher on my truck and when the snow finally fell i think i plowed a total of 10 drives for him all winter............yet i watched him drive by my house every morning to go plow.......alot. so needless to say thank god i had a few of my own drives to do from my lawn customers. as far as what you guys say about overhead costs and all i dont have very many. I have my GL policy and truck insurance. and im a sole operator so i have no payroll or workers comp needed. and taxes..........well ill deal with that when the time comes.....we all have to but i dont like to think about it. so anyways my overhead costs are minimal i just am trying to skate by this winter and make enough to pay the bills and make a lil extra for my pocket untill summer comes again. maybe ill get bigger into snowplowing one day and have a fleet of trucks and guys but for now im just worried about me and my familys appetites ya know. so what im trying to get figured out here is what i should be charging so i dont way underbid and ^%$# people off and i dont wanna way overbid and look like an idiot. i said before i know sub rates is 35 to 45 an hour so being a owner operator i shout be able to bid jobs at what?..............50 to 65 an hour? the company im bidding for told me that ya know some guys might already have 15 places out here so they can be way cheaper because they are right there already. i on the other hand am bidding on 4 or 5 lots they have but i have to drive 30 miles or so to get there then they are all within a few mile vicinity. and i think between all of them and drive time i might be looking at 5 hours total per trip and 5 hours subbing would put me at like 175 dollars at 35 an hour so im at a toss up as to wether i would be better subbing and getting the hours or doing it myself and getting more money. then i have the whole other issue of salting and i dont even know if anyone could help me with that. i am gonna get a tailgate salter if i get these commercial bids and i can get a pallet of salt for 200 bucks thats 2400 lbs or 30 80lb bags. but i have no idea how much salt you actually use while salting or how guys price it and how far does salt go? sorry to write so long but these short posts dont explain anything and guys always do what everyone has done to me.....ask more questions....lol so i dont know my head is spinning over all this. i want to make some money but i think i have no idea what im doing here as far as pricing. i know how to plow but i dont know how to price...lol i better just go to mickey ds for the winter.lol


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

ajslands;1075483 said:


> No one will pay you 80$ pr hour with that, you'll need some years of plowing expirence and a bigger plow before you get that. Before you go asking what we think you should get pr hour, why don't you factor in some stuff (you'll need to know math for this) you'll wanna factor in all your bussiness expenses and a determined percentage for each. Then throw in some overhead and you've got the basis of what you need to charge pr hour. But if you work for someone your first year (I think you should) their goig to determine a price for you and it's probably going to be under 45$. Get a salter and you'll increase your chances of getting more money. Ok i have homework to do so peace out!
> 
> Oh join sima!!!
> And snow care for troops.


Less than $45 an hour? There is no point in plowing for that. Might as well stay home. You are better off making no money than losing money.



RM&M;1075585 said:


> well i appreciate the input. This will be my second year plowing. last year i had like 10 to 15 residential drives for my self. i have been doing lawn care for three years now on the side i was a full time welder for a big company so i only did it on the side. but i have been laid off since april of this year and I am going to need the income this winter so i bought a 2 million dollar GL policy for landscape and snowplowing. the whole reason i got into plowing last year was i had a guy i went to school with who runs a pretty successful excavating company tell me if i got a plow he would give me 45 an hour to sub. so 2500 dollars later i had a 7.5 foot fisher on my truck and when the snow finally fell i think i plowed a total of 10 drives for him all winter............yet i watched him drive by my house every morning to go plow.......alot. so needless to say thank god i had a few of my own drives to do from my lawn customers. as far as what you guys say about overhead costs and all i dont have very many. I have my GL policy and truck insurance. and im a sole operator so i have no payroll or workers comp needed. and taxes..........well ill deal with that when the time comes.....we all have to but i dont like to think about it. so anyways my overhead costs are minimal i just am trying to skate by this winter and make enough to pay the bills and make a lil extra for my pocket untill summer comes again. maybe ill get bigger into snowplowing one day and have a fleet of trucks and guys but for now im just worried about me and my familys appetites ya know. so what im trying to get figured out here is what i should be charging so i dont way underbid and ^%$# people off and i dont wanna way overbid and look like an idiot. i said before i know sub rates is 35 to 45 an hour so being a owner operator i shout be able to bid jobs at what?..............50 to 65 an hour? the company im bidding for told me that ya know some guys might already have 15 places out here so they can be way cheaper because they are right there already. i on the other hand am bidding on 4 or 5 lots they have but i have to drive 30 miles or so to get there then they are all within a few mile vicinity. and i think between all of them and drive time i might be looking at 5 hours total per trip and 5 hours subbing would put me at like 175 dollars at 35 an hour so im at a toss up as to wether i would be better subbing and getting the hours or doing it myself and getting more money. then i have the whole other issue of salting and i dont even know if anyone could help me with that. i am gonna get a tailgate salter if i get these commercial bids and i can get a pallet of salt for 200 bucks thats 2400 lbs or 30 80lb bags. but i have no idea how much salt you actually use while salting or how guys price it and how far does salt go? sorry to write so long but these short posts dont explain anything and guys always do what everyone has done to me.....ask more questions....lol so i dont know my head is spinning over all this. i want to make some money but i think i have no idea what im doing here as far as pricing. i know how to plow but i dont know how to price...lol i better just go to mickey ds for the winter.lol


$50 to $65 an hour is pretty low. You are going to need to work slow for those prices.


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## DaytonBioLawns (May 20, 2010)

In reality it wouldn't be a bad decision going to a retail job for seasonal. typically you get paid a lil more than those minimum guys...and the nice thing is it steady pay and other work experience...being self employed doesn't do much for you until your business is recognized. I have had 2 or 3 jobs all the time since I was a freshman in high school. I'm not trying to disillusion you from plowing, but there isn't quick money here like everyone thinks. Only get into this business if you are under steady employment/sub work from a big company or plan on making it big in the long run. Competition is up and demand is down. It is killing the snow removal/landscape business. This happens every once in a while...until only the big ones are left. Your experience level is questionable from a contractor/employer's point of view. Now having a retail job and making an arrangement for major events can still make you some money. It never hurts to apply places and see what you can make work. If your family depends on you, depend on someone looking to support families...not on someone in a "screw you" industry like this one.


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

You just have to bid your price. Whether it is cheaper than the competitor or not. If you can do it for X amount and make money, than that's ok. It's not your fault if somebody has twice as much overhead as you. Good luck.


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

wow thats awesome i appreciate all the input. i have been stewing over these properties all night and i think i can up with some numbers. i think im gonaa go with 50 an hour for my truck whitch is about 15 more per hour than i would get subbing and im taking a stab at how long it will take me to plow these couple lots and im taking my price i got for salt at 7bucks per 80lb bag and gonna double it for app and take a good stab at how many i think i will use on each property and add it all together and submit whatever i come up with. if i get them hooray for me and if not its not to late to try and get other ones. 
and if all else fails i already talked to a company that can get me in between 35 and 40 per hour with plenty of hours available (when it snows). so if i have to go that route i will. but like i said before if i can get enough to keep me busy and make 15 to 20 more per hour then hooray for me cause subbing out and then taking out my fuel costs and my GL ins. i might as well go be a door greeter for 10 bucks an hour.....haha. but all in all thanks for your input and if anyone wants to chime in still i have about 10 hours before i submit my bids haha so any more intel on the subject would be great. the way i have broke it down so far is 50 an hour for my truck and the job i think will take me between two and three hours so i averaged it at 2.5 and 8 bags of 80lb salt at 15 per bag ( they are about 7 bucks a piece so i doubled it and added a buck for app) better to be safe and then about a half an hour to shovel walks and salt walks for 35 bucks. so the total i come up with is $285 per time full meal deal. to me that seems it might be a lil high but like i said its a 35 mile drive there and another 35 back so its gotta be worth it. if any one wants to look at the property to see if im outta my mind the google maps is 42.10317,-80.13859 just copy and paste i think this is a fair price but i could be wrong cause maybe the bigger companies can do it for half. so if any one does look at this let me know what you think 2.5 hours to plow sound right? and im not sure the lot dimensions and im not sure how far salt actually goes but im thinking 8 80lb bags so 640lbs of salt total out of a tailgate spreader.........am i somewhere close or am i way high or way low on the salt thing? if you can tell by the over head view on how much salt you guys think you would use on a lot this size chime in.......thanks in advance


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## DaytonBioLawns (May 20, 2010)

RM&M;1075630 said:


> wow thats awesome i appreciate all the input. i have been stewing over these properties all night and i think i can up with some numbers. i think im gonaa go with 50 an hour for my truck whitch is about 15 more per hour than i would get subbing and im taking a stab at how long it will take me to plow these couple lots and im taking my price i got for salt at 7bucks per 80lb bag and gonna double it for app and take a good stab at how many i think i will use on each property and add it all together and submit whatever i come up with. if i get them hooray for me and if not its not to late to try and get other ones.
> and if all else fails i already talked to a company that can get me in between 35 and 40 per hour with plenty of hours available (when it snows). so if i have to go that route i will. but like i said before if i can get enough to keep me busy and make 15 to 20 more per hour then hooray for me cause subbing out and then taking out my fuel costs and my GL ins. i might as well go be a door greeter for 10 bucks an hour.....haha. but all in all thanks for your input and if anyone wants to chime in still i have about 10 hours before i submit my bids haha so any more intel on the subject would be great. the way i have broke it down so far is 50 an hour for my truck and the job i think will take me between two and three hours so i averaged it at 2.5 and 8 bags of 80lb salt at 15 per bag ( they are about 7 bucks a piece so i doubled it and added a buck for app) better to be safe and then about a half an hour to shovel walks and salt walks for 35 bucks. so the total i come up with is $285 per time full meal deal. to me that seems it might be a lil high but like i said its a 35 mile drive there and another 35 back so its gotta be worth it. if any one wants to look at the property to see if im outta my mind the google maps is 42.10317,-80.13859 just copy and paste i think this is a fair price but i could be wrong cause maybe the bigger companies can do it for half. so if any one does look at this let me know what you think 2.5 hours to plow sound right? and im not sure the lot dimensions and im not sure how far salt actually goes but im thinking 8 80lb bags so 640lbs of salt total out of a tailgate spreader.........am i somewhere close or am i way high or way low on the salt thing? if you can tell by the over head view on how much salt you guys think you would use on a lot this size chime in.......thanks in advance


Sounds like your getting it worked out a little bit. and ya I'm up doing bids/research still too...One thing I'd like to point out though. How long does that 35 Mile trip take you? *Now do that in the worst winter conditions under full load* It can be done but it's a stretch.


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

well it takes me about 30 minutes now so with snow and white outs probably close to an hour but me being the eager beaver that i am and was last year hoping for the snow to fall i will probably be sitting in the lot before it even starts when the weather girl says its gonna heck ill already be driving..........LMAO....but anyways the thing is im bidding on 4 total one im bidding about 100 bucks thats fifty for plowing and 50 for salting. then the bigger one im having trouble on is about 30 seconds down the road and after that there is two small apartment building (not much bigger than a res. house....single lane driveway in the city to the back and maybe 5 parking spots out back......15 minutes a piece max.) and those two are on the way back home about 5 miles away from the last big one. and then the whole reason im so gung ho on bidding these is because in a good lake erie snow by the time i get done with the last one i could be heading back to thie first one all over again. and im under the assumption thats where the money is is the ones that say 2 inches PLOW IT. compared to people at res. houses calling you only when thier cars are buried or stuck halfway up the driveway with 12 inches of snow. so i assumed having the bigger ones that want it plowed anything after 2 inches could keep me pretty dang busy....am i right?


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## DaytonBioLawns (May 20, 2010)

RM&M;1075632 said:


> well it takes me about 30 minutes now so with snow and white outs probably close to an hour but me being the eager beaver that i am and was last year hoping for the snow to fall i will probably be sitting in the lot before it even starts when the weather girl says its gonna heck ill already be driving..........LMAO....but anyways the thing is im bidding on 4 total one im bidding about 100 bucks thats fifty for plowing and 50 for salting. then the bigger one im having trouble on is about 30 seconds down the road and after that there is two small apartment building (not much bigger than a res. house....single lane driveway in the city to the back and maybe 5 parking spots out back......15 minutes a piece max.) and those two are on the way back home about 5 miles away from the last big one. and then the whole reason im so gung ho on bidding these is because in a good lake erie snow by the time i get done with the last one i could be heading back to thie first one all over again. and im under the assumption thats where the money is is the ones that say 2 inches PLOW IT. compared to people at res. houses calling you only when thier cars are buried or stuck halfway up the driveway with 12 inches of snow. so i assumed having the bigger ones that want it plowed anything after 2 inches could keep me pretty dang busy....am i right?


Ya you're right about frequency and staying on contract. Once you get commercial contracts you have them if you deliver. Home owners change their mind and waste a lot of time and can be a PITA. Just remember with travel and bad conditions and the amount of snow you experience that it is easy to get behind. The further you are behind the less money you make, and if some idiot in his 2wd car going to the movies or what ever could wreck and mess up your only route (psssshhhh thats never happened to me) (he was an idiot and all duuuurrrr can you pull me and the other 5 cars out before the police get here )


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

haha well ill hope for the best and hope that dont happen to me. but the other problem im having is there is a spot for hauling or stacking of snow per time. and i have no idea on that one. i have a 5 ton dump and i can get a skid steer for about 200 bucks a day so i would have to charge at least 350 to cover my dump and rental and then i would have to find somewhere to take the snow and i have no idea about that or what they charge(if they do) per load and then i need to make some profit so im thinking that i would have to charge like 500 bucks for the little lot and like 750 for the bigger one or else im just out there hauling snow to cover costs and that make sense right?.......but i dont know if these prices are way high compared to the big boys who own thier own skidd steers or if im fairly guesses on that one. plus this bid sheet i have only gives the option of per time to do either and obviously if i just have to stack it heck i can do it for half of the haul away price but they only have one spot for both so im not sure what to put on that one


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## DaytonBioLawns (May 20, 2010)

hmmm sounds like a PITA to me...a property manager who likes to flex his muscles maybe...Charge what you need to make it worth it. If your equipment isn't paying for itself and you aren't taking home at least 20 an hour for your own wage I wouldn't even get out of bed. Let him rent a SS or loader and sub a truck. Don't bend over for him...your price is your price. Sell on the quality factor or the "dry feet" factor. As in none of the ppl there have to screw with it and if they pay up, when they walk that lot their feet and pant legs will be just as dry as during the dry hot summer....I sell a lot with that


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## Wayne Volz (Mar 1, 2002)

*Take the guess work out of your bidding*

Seems everyone is giving you the same advice as I put in a prior post. Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you really want to know what to charge you must first calculate your break-even point based on your individual company's overhead and expenses.

We have a two products that will take the guess work out of your estimating process. The first is a CD titled "Know why you charge what you charge" that makes calculating your break-even point a simple process. It is an excel spreadsheet format and you simply fill in the blanks. The second item is a printed easy to read manual titled Bidding & Contracts your key to success. The total for both products including shipping is 
$129.90. This works for any service that you may be providing. A very small investment for the peace of mind you will have when bidding jobs.

If you have any questions, call me at 800-845-0499 or visit www.profitsareus.com.


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## DaytonBioLawns (May 20, 2010)

That sponsor guy is right. I wouldn't buy anything from him. But he is right. Go to the library and get some books on running a business. Use google, and use this site. You'll have everything you need. The key is remembering all of the factors in the overhead genre. This includes cost to replace your equipment per hour. I wish I could get paid like that guy for my hard work and brain power lost to this business...but I don't like being liable for other peoples failure and selling a fear based product. Find your big landscaping owners in area. Give them a call and ask if you can set up a meeting to talk about this business. It worked great for me.


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## Wayne Volz (Mar 1, 2002)

*If we can help let us know.*



DaytonBioLawns;1075790 said:


> That sponsor guy is right. I wouldn't buy anything from him. But he is right. Go to the library and get some books on running a business. Use google, and use this site. You'll have everything you need. The key is remembering all of the factors in the overhead genre. This includes cost to replace your equipment per hour. I wish I could get paid like that guy for my hard work and brain power lost to this business...but I don't like being liable for other peoples failure and selling a fear based product. Find your big landscaping owners in area. Give them a call and ask if you can set up a meeting to talk about this business. It worked great for me.


I would like to say that we are not selling fear based products. Being a full service lawn and landscaping business myself since 1979, we have simplified the bidding and cost calculation process. Our bidding and cost recovery information does not tell anyone what to charge because every market is different and even markets within markets are priced differently.

Our products offer a person a simple methodology to use to determine their break-even point based on their company's overhead and use-rates of the equipment. The library is a fine source of information as well. However, the library offers mostly cost accounting information and unless you have an accounting background, many are lost in the accounting methodologies used in cost accounting.

We have several of the larger services in the United States that have purchased and implemented some of our principles and techniques. Not to mention several thousand other contractors throughout North America that are utilizing the information we have available. It is not for everyone, but nothing is and we understand that completely.


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## Jerreber (Aug 20, 2010)

RM&M;1075470 said:


> Well sorry about that I didnt know that haha. maybe thats why nobody has responded. Im not asking what to charge for the lots either im just trying to get an idea of what the average half ton with a 7.5 foot fisher is worth by the hour. Like i said before i know i can get anywhere from 35 to 45 an hour subbing but I could use the money i could make by myself more. I think 80 sounds a little high dont it? if places are paying thier subs 35 an hour they cant be charging over twice that rate can they? Im not trying to lowball either like i said i have a couple of small places im looking to do and im in ERIE PA just would like to know what i should be expecting per hour for my services. im not out trying to steal peoples work. im a one man crew with one truck just trying to get through winter with three kids but i would prefer not to be out there making a complete a%# out of my self while trying to make some money. any help would be awesome.


You'll think your making money at 35 - 40 per hour but you'll be in the hole the first time you hit a manhole to hard or burn up a tranny. I don't care where you are in the US, 35 is way too low even for subbing. Out of that 35 per hour you have to pay for gas, typical maintenance on your truck, etc... then there are always things that go wrong on the plow itself even on a newer plow. You would be farther ahead if you left the truck at home for that kind of money. If your subbing, maybe you should think about walks to start out with. Not sure about your area but where I'm at we usually provide walk service 40 -50 x per year and only plow about 10 - 15 x per year. If you do it right, a guy by himself can make some pretty good money doing walks without having alot of equipment with potential to break down and cost alot of money in repairs. Contractors are always in need of walk guys. Believe me I would much rather sit in a warm truck plowing than freezing my butt off shoveling but if the money is right why not!


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

thanks jerreber. well see with my situation. i already bought and own my plow for a job that never panned out last year so i ate it but i was working full time elsewhere so no big loss. but this year i have completely lost my job and i am taking this landscaping and snowplowing thing seriously. it used to be just a side thing for me because i enjoyed the extra cash and i enjoyed the work. but now i have come to realize that there is money in it and what better time to go for the gold as when you need a job...lol

either way, i have already purchased a 2mill liab policy, have comm auto on two vehicles and have maybe not as much as bigger outfits but for me quite a bit of $ invested. so i have the plow and want to use it this year. i have talked to other people now over the last week and have been informed that they believe the sub rate out here is more like $30 an hour. well for that there is no way in hell i would put my truck through the stress and pay for my fuel and my ins. so i have decided that im just gonna get the he&& out there and price what i need to make money and if i get it i do and if not o well theres a million other places that get plowed i just gotta find them. also i take into consideration that my OH costs are well below others who are bigger. i have my insurance, and fuel, and maintenance. so after that its all profit well it pays my bills and then its profit. haha either way i figure if i get some comm work fine and go from there and if not there are 10's of thousands of homeowners in my area and alot of them pay a plow guy. the only thing that really bothers me is that i know what some of the other guys around me charge to do res drives and when people are doing them for 15 or 20 a whack thats whats killing everyone else who has to charge 10-15 just for costs. if all the a$$ holes with no ins. who just threw plow on thier truck and run around charging 10 bucks a drive would dissapear i think we would be fine. but even though i know that theres cheap a$$e$ in my are that charge 10 or 15 per drive im gonna start at 20 for small ones and go up from there and if people question why so much im gonna say "well your buddy who said he would do it for 10 bucks slams into your car or garage door have fun paying for it when he says well ill plow for the rest of the year for free. cause that dont make up for a 3500 auto repair or 2500 garage door." the point is im gonna sell them on im covered and im gonna be there when it needs done and im gonna do a good job cause i want to keep you as a customer. and if they still dont agree well then i dont need them and they are more concerned with price than anything else so they probably wouldnt be a very profitable account anyways right?


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## vt properties (Jan 28, 2010)

since you are a one truck operation , a rough figure woulld be $85-$130hr. With experience you will begin to look at lots properties ect.. and get a rough estimate how long it will take you to plow based on difficulty . also have a minimim for resi driveways...like say 25-35 min for a small drive.


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

well like i said before i have been told numbers anywhere from30 up to like 40 or so for subbing so i figure my truck is worth at least like double somewhere around 55 to 75. also remember vt that im around erie pa and are plowing rates have apparently went down the shi**er compared to everyone elses i see on here posting up around 125 an hour all the way up to 185. i friggen wish lol. but i am thinking that res drives WILL be a minimum of 20 just to plow not including walks or salting. the only way i would go cheaper would be if i fot a group of houses to hire me all in the same area or road but i doubt it. lol. and if i do resi's i figure i could do 5 or 6 an hour in the same area or road and that is like 100 or more per hour. so i think the comm. scene is probably not as profitable for me as doing resi's would be. im gonna see if the bids i got come through on the parking lots and if they dont im gonna just do some foot work in the higher up communities and line up as many as i can handle . or should i say get.....dont wanna sound cocky cause like i said there are alot of a$$e$ around here with 500 dollar plows on 1990s trucks doing this for 10 ^%$&^%$&^%$&^%$&^%$&^%$&^%$&^%$&^%$ dollars. so ill just have to sell them on the fact that i wont hit thier benz and if i do its paid for...lol

thanks for the input also


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## vt properties (Jan 28, 2010)

We have the same problem here , a lot of guys. The way I look at it is residental plowing is a luxury. I went to a house last year that had a huge drive , i told him 40.00 the guy before me did it for 15.00. Couldn t believe it. Today I saw on craigslist the $10.00 driveway add and I'll beat any quote add. Guys are despaerate I guess. But what happens when the tranny is shot or plow pump goes . These guys are not making any money. It takes time but stay the course, we are in this for profit remember .


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

exactly. i seen ads like that last winter when i first got my plow in the papers that said driveways starting at 12 bucks and things like that. and those were friggen landscape companies!! good thing i didnt do a whole lot of plowing last year cause at those prices i would have been paying for half my own gas! hell yea VT im gonna stay the course. this is my price take it or leave it. And if youd rather pay that guy cause hes half the price good for you. but ill tell you now if you call we when its blizzarding out cause his POS truck broke i charge a convienance fee for penny pinchers.lmao

HAHAHA


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

I will tell you what. im gonna make up a contract for all the cheap a$$e$ out there and state it like this.

will plow your drive for 10$ per time
or maybe less lol
and then in the disclaimer ill put :if property of contractor breaks on your property you are liable and responsible to replace contractors truck(valued at up to 15000.00) and plow (valued at up to 3500.00)
and provide payment to contractor for acounts that go unserviced due to time down without equipment.
also customer will defend and not hold liable contractor if he hits any of their cars, or house, or mutilates their lawn or cracks and destroys their pavement. this will be the customers problem if this happens and they will have to pay for it all.

if terms are acceptable sign here______________________
print here @$$hole tightwad


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## vt properties (Jan 28, 2010)

Nice...LOL i get calls during a storm ...I charge 2X my rate. Last year to pull me off the route was $50.00 min. People wanted me to plow 2' or more of wet snow. I have good customers, Im nt the most expensive but I bid competively. Over time you will get referalls and such. I always educated the customer . I also do landscaping so i try to cross sell...Like one monthly price for evererything


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

haha see how many sign up for that service. and when they say hell no ill just have to tell them that well the guy who did it for 10bucks pretty much had that contract with you just not worded out on paper. lol

so i can change that to im comp responsible but thats why i have to charge more.
and then ill ask them why they dont wanna replace my truck? or plow? lmao
ill tell them cmon your driveways only worth 10bucks to plow so all this equipment cant be that expensive right? i mean you pay your lawn guy 30-40 bucks to mow your yard with his couple hundred dollar lawn mower. 
AAAGGHHHHH thats the part that really gets me about all this is i got people who pay me well to go push a cheap lawn mower across their yard but people think that your truck and plow are worth less when your pushing friggen snow. thats irratating. hell if my mower breaks i could probably be back up and running in less than an hour for under a hundred bucks lol. my truck or plow goes down im done for hours if not more(ie:transmission) so wtf?


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

yea i think im gonna do that too charge more ....like double what i would if they were a normal cust for calls during a storm. but i think im gonna also carry around a contract with me and tell them if they sign a contract i will do it for the normal quote i would have gave them in the fall but they have to go into contract with me for the winter


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## Jerreber (Aug 20, 2010)

RM&M;1079213 said:


> I will tell you what. im gonna make up a contract for all the cheap a$$e$ out there and state it like this.
> 
> will plow your drive for 10$ per time
> or maybe less lol
> ...


Oh and don't forget to include in that contract "we do not carry workman's comp or any liability insurance whatsoever"


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## Jerreber (Aug 20, 2010)

RM&M;1079207 said:


> exactly. i seen ads like that last winter when i first got my plow in the papers that said driveways starting at 12 bucks and things like that. and those were friggen landscape companies!! good thing i didnt do a whole lot of plowing last year cause at those prices i would have been paying for half my own gas! hell yea VT im gonna stay the course. this is my price take it or leave it. And if youd rather pay that guy cause hes half the price good for you. but ill tell you now if you call we when its blizzarding out cause his POS truck broke i charge a convienance fee for penny pinchers.lmao
> 
> HAHAHA


i think residentials are always worth more for the time because generally they are pickier. they want it down to bare pavement which isnt going to happen if you back blade it. They should pay a premium. I can see 12 bucks for a typical 40' drive way if you have 6 or 7 of them in one spot but you can't bid that way hoping you'll get all of them in one spot. These guys always go out of business after a couple years cause the cashflow isn't there. Problem is there are always more dumb***** to replace them! Same with mowing. There is a company in my area that has a rich daddy or something. Been in business for 2 years and they have at least 6 brand new fords/dumps etc...all new plows and mowing equipment. They are mowing 20,000 sf residential lawns for $20.00. I lost a 25 acre account to them. They are mowing it for $360!!! with their new equipment. Not sure what they are plowing for but I'm sure it's lowballed. Sorry for the rant!


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## MileHigh (Nov 6, 2007)

no disrespect to the city or the people that plow in that area..but I have read that Erie, PA is the arsehole of plowing rates.


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

yea JERREBER i agree. and it does suck. i see more and more guys every year that show up out of the blue with a nice f350 dump or insert pullin around a setup that has to be worth 10 to 20 grand in some cases. and i wonder to myself where the %$#^ they came from and where they got the money and how the hell they got bigger and more accounts than i do when ive been around for a lot longer than them but thier poppin up and gettin all the comm. accts. they show up bid low and ^%$ the rest of us smaller shows that have to bid what they need and what they can manage within thier time constraints.


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

and yea MILEHIGH no disrespect taken because apparently we are the lowest market for snowplowing that i have come to discover. I am fairly new to commercial but i have found that rates run anywhere from 30-45 an hour for subs here and just a short hour away rates go up to over 50-60 an hour for subs. so yes we do apparently have a very shi**Y market here in erie. I have decided even though im new to commercial plowing that i am gonna go it alone for work because at those sub rates i couldnt afford my own gas or insurance most months. lol

But i have come to realize.....and this is just what makes sense to me and im not talking about dealing with nationals or any of that horror crap all the senior members talk about on here, but the fact is that when working locally through smaller man. companies or direct to the customer that the market anywhere but here still pays better than erie pa
and the only way that could have happened is that legitamate cont. had to compete with uninsured and unresponsible guys who came in and lowballed the shi^ out of everywhere and the only way the contractors could make it was to move down to the side job joe's rates and deal with it. or the rates just never went up from what they were years ago cause the same thing. SJJ coming in and doing it for less.
so unfortunately instead of legitamate contractors standing thier ground they got right into the lowballing auction for properties to stay afloat and thats why our market is so ****** in erie.

at least thats what i think the problem is case cause you cant explain to me how erie is so low but take an hour drive to youngstown oh, or cleveland er colombus and rates are double what i would get subbing my truck.

its a whole lot of BS if you ask me. my plow and truck cost the same amount wether i buy it in erie or michigan and gas is the same price too! so why does the same investmant yield only half the profit???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

RM&M, myself or someone else tried to tell you.....it sucked around here. It's sad that two hours away the price increases by 40-50%. But just a heads up...your not going to go in to any business or residential and get 55-75/hr, you might get lucky and pick up A COUPLE average driveways at 20-25 bucks. I applaud you for wanting to stand your ground but its just not reality in this area because for every guy who thinks his truck is worth 75/hr (which it should be) there's 25 other "companies" that are within the 35-40 range. You can thank previous "big companies" for the crappy per hr rate here. Its a vicious cycle, need some accounts, buy new equipment, need more accounts to pay for the new equipment, I can service this many more if I buy this equipment, buy that equipment, need more accounts, need to keep these accounts to pay for all my new equipment I better lower or "will you beat his price"....and the ball keeps on rolling. No offense but your a fool if you think your going to get any more than 35-45/hr for a truck. I dont know what equipment you have but a 1/2ton with a 7 1/2ft straight blade isn't going to bring top dollar.


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

brian, im not talking about bringing in top dollar. Im just saying that if i do residentials at.........hell say anywhere from 15-25 a whack and can get them in the same area or close knit as some might say your average 2x2 car drive should take you what 5 minutes tops? and at that rate with drive time you can pop out 5-8 of these an hour if they are close enough together. and at that rate youd be running anywhere from at least 75 an hour at 15 a pop up to 150 an hour at 20-25 a pop. as opposed to subbing for 30 or 35 an hour and THEN deducting your own gas, ins, and taxes.

and as far as my equipment, i dont really think wether my truck is a 1/2 or 3/4 is gonna make a diffrence in just the aspect of what i can push as far as snow. the trruck size really just determines what i can use for a plow and what type of spreader i can have in/on the back.
but im planning on running my 01 1/2 ton ram with a fisher 7.5 mm1 and adding some wings or extensions to bring me up to 9ft total. and i am purchasing a buyers swing away salt spreader with lights and a 800lb capacity for small comm. lots and then i have as many shovels and a snowblower if needed.

so the point is i think my truck is worth just as much as a guy with a 2010 f250 with a 8ft meyers straight blade and a shovel in the back. I do understand weight capacities and all that with the diff in a 1/2, 3/4, and 1 ton truck.
All im trying to say is just because some guy might have a newer or shinier truck or a plow thats 6 inches longer than mine or a heavier weight rating doesnt or shouldnt mean that his truck is worth anymore than mine per hour wether subbing or not.
just because a guys truck can carry 500lbs more in the bed dont mean jack when it comes to plowing the snow thats on the ground in front of you.
so the point of this all though was the fact that i said i would probably be better off doing resi's this year and getting a tight route. and i would be better off banging them out at 20 bucks er so a piece and doing 4 or 5 an hour than i would be driving around some fast food joint or store for 30 an hour pushing snow the whole time. unless the guy i was subbing for was paying for my comm liab. ins. and all i had to pay for was gas this really doesnt make much sense in the pocket book does it?


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## RM&M (Sep 21, 2010)

i mean you told me yourself brian that you did the whole subbing thing for the rates you did and said f&#% this and decided youd be better off by yourself. and thats exactly what im agreeing with and saying. but just because im smaller or have less cost than some of these other guys in erie doesnt mean i shouldnt get what they get to have the same peice of equipment pushing snow on thier lot. wether mines a 1/2 ton and gerlachs is a 3/4 dont make a lick of diff to me. they both push snow across a parking lot.


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