# Available Salt



## rblake (Nov 17, 2007)

Just recieved a fax from last years supplier saying that they have all the salt I need. Minimum order of 400 tons. Lets see, 2 weeks left in feb and maybe 2 weeks in march - maybe they should have not cut of all of the private contractors and not rely on all of the municipalities. It would be interesting to see what there price is.


----------



## augerandblade (Jan 17, 2009)

400 tons well thats about 8 to 10 tractor trailer loads, sounds like they are desperate to move the crap


----------



## grasmancolumbus (Mar 4, 2008)

hope they get stuck with it and they think twice about pulling this **** in the seasons to come.


----------



## Showmestaterida (Dec 28, 2006)

ditto, Prices are starting to drop around stl too. Maybe they will learn their lesson.


----------



## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

augerandblade;755984 said:


> 400 tons well thats about 8 to 10 tractor trailer loads, sounds like they are desperate to move the crap


about 15 loads here in MO


----------



## leon (Nov 18, 2008)

*salt etc.*



rblake;755978 said:


> Just recieved a fax from last years supplier saying that they have all the salt I need. Minimum order of 400 tons. Lets see, 2 weeks left in feb and maybe 2 weeks in march - maybe they should have not cut of all of the private contractors and not rely on all of the municipalities. It would be interesting to see what there price is.


I would like to comment on this as a former employee of a salt mining company with a big green teardrop.

It is a basic economics homework problem:

The law of supply and demand always governs any mined product or anything else for that matter.

In rock salt or solar salts use for deicing the sales window is from September 1st to May 1st of the fiscal year.

The reason they are trying to sell is simply one of supply at a larger price(cost to the reseller and they want to reduce thier respective inventories to zero to maximise thier sales and eliminate inventory carry over to the following salt season simply because it is a problem of dealing with a large accounts payable liability to the bulk salt seller.

The mine operators have no worries unless they have a massive amount of salt and no where to move it due to poor sales years from warmer weather over a two year period.

In economics you are either a supply sider-being the mine operators or bulk resellers; a demand sider being the municipalities, or a pragmatist being the smaller user.

As I have repeatedly said here on plow site the salt shortages are man made simply due to overuse of salt period and the fact that the municipalities will not store an entire seasons worth of salt on their properties due to pollution concerns and having to do with annual budgets and spreading operating expenses throughout the year and dealing with smaller and smaller revenue streams from taxes or federal aid.

Every time the salt is gone the municipalities, states, townships etc. are given priority due to thier contracts and how the contracts are written to provide X plus amounts rock salt typically being 20-25 percent more salt than is contracted for with the supplier and this will never change due to the bare roads policy in most states in the snow belt areas.

The only way you will over come this is to form a co-op and it will end the problem as I have stated before on the forums.


----------



## HinikerPrototyp (Jan 22, 2008)

*Thank this contractor for wasteing salt (not me)*

Ya think they used enough salt in this parking lot? I took pictures of 8 other lots where the salt was put on like water.Now you know .


----------



## HinikerPrototyp (Jan 22, 2008)

Couple more over salted lots


----------



## jt5019 (Aug 28, 2003)

Ive seen much worse than those pictures wish i had a camera with me. Could it be they were just salting a thin layer of black ice in those pictures?


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

That's not that bad. It's easy to criticize after the fact......what were the circumstances (weather) prior to the application?

I'll bet if you were to sweep that parking lot, you wouldn't be able to fill a 5 gal bucket. The other lots you'ed be hard pressed to fill a coffee can full from the looks of your pic.You call that over salting?

Sounds like something a property manager would say. No matter the conditions they expect the lots salted, and once melted want ZERO salt residue remaining.


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

HinikerPrototyp;759135 said:


> Ya think they used enough salt in this parking lot? I took pictures of 8 other lots where the salt was put on like water.Now you know .


Why are you taking pictures of 9(or more) parking lots that you don't do?!?

Just curious......


----------



## Tscape (Jan 19, 2004)

Over-salt this. Quit fretting about the job someone else is doing and worry about what it is that you do.


----------



## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

Judging by the lack of snow in the lawn across the street i'd imagine that was probably a real light snow, or icing and the salt didnt have that much work to do, but the lot was probably still slippery, so theres some left for the next little event.


----------



## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

that is overkill! i would get a butt chewing around here for dumping that much salt.......they also should have used a fine grade salt that would disolve with the storm and not leave such a mess.....


----------



## HinikerPrototyp (Jan 22, 2008)

Its funny to read all the posts, sounds to me that must be how the negative posters salt. The snow fall was a dusting less then 1/4 inch then the wind blew 15 mph .The lots weren't even covered in snow.We take care of many commercial lots and lmao we didn't spread a crumb.Pure over kill, sweep the lot and get a coffee can, yeah right.Its called bend over and charge the company for the use of something that wasn't needed,mean while we have to pay though the nose for salt.As for taking pictures of lots i don't do, is there a law against that?


----------



## HinikerPrototyp (Jan 22, 2008)

Turfscape LLC;759518 said:


> Over-salt this. Quit fretting about the job someone else is doing and worry about what it is that you do.


 I do worry about what i do and whats better for the environment.You being in the landscape business should know how to care for planet earth,if you don't care about it you shouldn't be in the land care business .


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

HinikerPrototyp;759881 said:


> Pure over kill, sweep the lot and get a coffee can, yeah right.As for taking pictures of lots i don't do, is there a law against that?


Yeah right.....seriously.

Sweep the lots and tell us how much you are able to collect. You won't be able to fill half a coffee can with the looks of the bottom 2 pics. You seem to have the time.

Of course there is no law against increasing your carbon footprint by needlessly driving around taking pictures of other peoples work and criticizing.

Better yet, post pic's of you work so we can all see what perfection is.


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

HinikerPrototyp;759885 said:


> I do worry about what i do and whats better for the environment.You being in the landscape business should know how to care for planet earth,if you don't care about it you shouldn't be in the land care business .


Many of us happen to know Turfscape is very conscientious and knowledgeable when it comes to the environment. Same on your lose accusation of him not caring.

So the salt you throw doesn't go back into the ground (where it came from) and the salt the rest of us throw is ruining the planet?

Please tell us more Mr. Gore.


----------



## Tscape (Jan 19, 2004)

NEWSFLASH: When you salt a lot, there is going to be residue. Period. End of story.

We are safety stewards. We ensure safe travel during inclement weather. I am sure the potential clients that you address with this notion of "over-salting" are less than impressed with your potential ability to provide safe passage on their site. Keep working it though, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

TCLA;759429 said:


> That's not that bad. It's easy to criticize after the fact......what were the circumstances (weather) prior to the application?
> 
> I'll bet if you were to sweep that parking lot, you wouldn't be able to fill a 5 gal bucket. The other lots you'ed be hard pressed to fill a coffee can full from the looks of your pic.You call that over salting?
> 
> Sounds like something a property manager would say. No matter the conditions they expect the lots salted, and once melted want ZERO salt residue remaining.


I agree I also like residue left so there is some for the next storm.


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Looks like that would have been a perfect storm to use liquids on.


----------



## Tscape (Jan 19, 2004)

HinikerPrototyp;759137 said:


> Couple more over salted lots


Here's a picture for you:


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

OK, for the above mentioned storm, it is very, very difficult to only apply enough salt to melt what has accumulated. This is why I stated liquids are a great solution.

Now, having said that, and I know you guys from the east side don't like it, but 99% of the times I have been over there and the lots\roads I have seen, you overapply salt. 

When there is enough salt to melt the next half inch of snow, that is overapplication, because you really can not guarantee there will be another storm. 

When there are granules of salt that have not become brine or left a white coating of salt dust on the pavement, you have overapplied. 

I will readily admit that I\we have done the same thing, it is easy to do. And I too, would get a butt chewing from several customers if I left my lots looking like these pics. 

And the OP has a point in regards to being stewards of the environment as well, it is our responsibility as true professionals to provide the safe environment that we are contracted for while doing the least harm to the environment.

For example, the landscape managers have all heard of IPM, right? This is a practice in which pesticides are applied only when necessary, instead of the blanket apps that used to be performed. Why? Because pests were building up resistance to pesticides; it was determined that the application of pesticides for pests present or not was not healthy for the environment; etc. 

I believe it is our responsibility to educate our customers and ourselves why there is a balance between safety and overuse of any chemical, natural or not. 

I have seen the above conditions in Chicago as well, so it isn't just a localized thing.

Putting on flame suit now.


----------



## shott8283 (Feb 17, 2008)

HinikerPrototyp;759135 said:


> Ya think they used enough salt in this parking lot? I took pictures of 8 other lots where the salt was put on like water.Now you know .


whats worse.. letting it sit on the pavement or being orderd to sweep and scrape it all up and dump the wet leftovers into a dumpster or snowbank

we used a bobcat to load our salters (spreader on the back of a kubota, and a snowex tailgate) so obviously there was overflow that would drop off the sides.. this ended up being about half a bobcat bucket (for every loading, and we would load 4 or 5 times a morning).. we were always told not to put it back into the bin b/c it had gotten wet from landing on the ground and would clog and block up in the bin and jam our salters.. so, being the fiscally minded employee i am,, i scraped up the leftovers with the bobcat and spread it around the parking lot as best as i could... it ended up being quite thick in some spots as i was just dumpin the piles and then backdraggin them with the bucket to spread them out... primarily in hightraffic areas

i was yelled at.. and told to go use the bobcat, broom and shovel to scrape EVERY bit of it up b/c they were worried people might trip over it... :realmad::realmad::realmad:

so i did such act.. and then asked where should i put the unusable salt.. i was told.. VERBATIM dump it into the dumpster like everyone else is doing(meaning other employees), or dumb it into a snowbank...

kid you not..i think i should have stayed where i was b/c im sadly learning they must have had a bottomless pit of an expense acount to be wasting salt as such

this is one of the very many reasons why i left!!!!!

P.S. mind you this was all an inhouse operation


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;760165 said:


> OK, for the above mentioned storm, it is very, very difficult to only apply enough salt to melt what has accumulated. This is why I stated liquids are a great solution.
> 
> Hard to tell when liquid is over-applied isn't it.
> 
> ...


No suit required, you mean well. :waving:

HP needs the suit.......


----------



## HinikerPrototyp (Jan 22, 2008)

I see you changed your picture tcla, was that a picture of your salt mine you had on here the other day? So i have to explain myself again so you can leave another comment.There wasn't residual in the parking lots i took pictures of, it was solid rock salt that was ran over making it look like left over residual.Like i said a dusting of snow which really wasn't a dusting since most of it blew to the south east corner of every lot.I understand that customers want zero ice or snow on a lot after a storm or within a certain time period but when theres no storm, its wasted salt. I simply posted a picture of over used and applied salt for the circumstances and you had to jump on board with your attitude about what i shouldn't be doing.Ive noticed this site has alot of nice people then there are some who wanna be negative to others on here. I have been plowing for 15 years 17 plus accounts, 8 large commercial accounts and 9 Subdivisions also on stand by for 4 townships when their behind.I didnt start plowing last night.I know its hard for you to understand but cant we all just get along.ussmileyflag


----------



## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

HinikerPrototyp;760567 said:


> I see you changed your picture tcla, was that a picture of your salt mine you had on here the other day? So i have to explain myself again so you can leave another comment.There wasn't residual in the parking lots i took pictures of, it was solid rock salt that was ran over making it look like left over residual.Like i said a dusting of snow which really wasn't a dusting since most of it blew to the south east corner of every lot.I understand that customers want zero ice or snow on a lot after a storm or within a certain time period but when theres no storm, its wasted salt. I simply posted a picture of over used and applied salt for the circumstances and you had to jump on board with your attitude about what i shouldn't be doing.Ive noticed this site has alot of nice people then there are some who wanna be negative to others on here. I have been plowing for 15 years 17 plus accounts, 8 large commercial accounts and 9 Subdivisions also on stand by for 4 townships when their behind.I didnt start plowing last night.I know its hard for you to understand but cant we all just get along.ussmileyflag


i stand by you and also say again that we would get a real butt chewing for that and the customer probably wouldn't pay if they were on a per salt basis......usually a dusting that blows is better left without salt....


----------



## rblake (Nov 17, 2007)

Anways, does anyone need the phone number for salt ?


----------



## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

When it comes to the point where competitors follow us around, taking pictures & scrutinizing haw many extra pellets of salt we should, or shouldn't have used, I quit.


----------



## dumb yankee (Dec 10, 2008)

If you look at it from the property owners view, a little extra salt is far better than a law suit.


----------



## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

I'm sort of confused here, because that is like an average amount around here. I'd love to show you some of the places around here that DO get salted to heavy. we have one contractor here (local guys know him) that it has been an ongoing joke of how much he puts down. he doesn't care. Just throw it, and bill 'em. At just under 2 mil. so far this snow season, I'm not going to question his methods...


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

When your customer based is loaded with clients that have been through the ringer with slip and falls, they want a contractor who will have the ability to repeat, three-peat and four-peat during business hours.

When they say "I would rather trip on salt than slip on ice" they mean it. They're not looking for mamby pamby/just get by type of service. They also don't want to hear about salt shortages....they want it done. *No excuses.*

I cringe when I look at some of the sites we do. An automotive plant we do is so belligerently over-salted that it's ridiculous. *THEY LOVE IT!*

We all make mistakes based on judgment calls. It can snow for hours after you apply so the driver (or walk guy) must throw what he thinks will do to make the site safe for travel without waste. It can stop snowing and leave too much product down for all to see. It's not an easy job, and it's difficult to be dead on all the time.

Anyone who bothers to criticize other peoples work can never really know what the real facts or preference's are, and quite often makes you look like a fool. But opinions are like noses......everyone has one and they are all different. It makes for interesting reading though.


----------



## Tscape (Jan 19, 2004)

C'mon! I throw a Lebowski on you and not so much as a chuckle?


----------



## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

Less salt is more? I charge by the ton so whats wrong with giving the customer what they want, salt them till they say stop. What contractors put down compared to the muni's is nothing when it comes to the environment. Over salting is to be determined by the customer not the contractor or the contractors competition. The contractor can make suggestions but why suggest less, the customer will find some one to give them what they want, less or more.


----------



## Ipushsnow (Oct 29, 2007)

The thing is you almost never know how much is enough. I have a retirement/assisted living place I have been plowing for 5 yrs, could basically do it with my eyes closed by now. I know exactly how much salt to use on this lot. Last week I plowed and salted it at 5:00 am and by 6:30 the sun was out shining and the temp rose to just above freezing. 

I drove by about noon and holy ****e there was salt EVERYWHERE. I was thinking wow, if that was someone else's lot I would say they use WAYYYYYY too much salt. The thing is I used the same 500 pounds I always use every time, but with the sun coming out and the temp rising a little the salt melted the little snow/ice that was there but did not disintegrate.

I would rather have that condition than drive by and see the salt I applied didnt do the trick and there was snow and ice on the lot.


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Turfscape LLC;761764 said:


> C'mon! I throw a Lebowski on you and not so much as a chuckle?


Sorry Mike.....I thought it was *GREAT*!!!!:salute::waving:


----------



## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

TCLA;761651 said:


> When your customer based is loaded with clients that have been through the ringer with slip and falls, they want a contractor who will have the ability to repeat, three-peat and four-peat during business hours.
> 
> When they say "I would rather trip on salt than slip on ice" they mean it. They're not looking for mamby pamby/just get by type of service. They also don't want to hear about salt shortages....they want it done. *No excuses.*
> 
> ...


Amen.....:salute:


----------



## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

TCLA;761651 said:


> When your customer based is loaded with clients that have been through the ringer with slip and falls, they want a contractor who will have the ability to repeat, three-peat and four-peat during business hours.
> 
> When they say "I would rather trip on salt than slip on ice" they mean it. They're not looking for mamby pamby/just get by type of service. They also don't want to hear about salt shortages....they want it done. *No excuses.*
> 
> ...


No wonder they are begging for bailout money and bleeding cash from all orifaces.


----------



## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I hope no one takes pictures of our lots today.....rain froze, got a minor dusting of snow.....


----------



## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Longae29;762252 said:


> I hope no one takes pictures of our lots today.....rain froze, got a minor dusting of snow.....


I was thinking the same thing all morning


----------



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

TCLA;761651 said:


> When your customer based is loaded with clients that have been through the ringer with slip and falls, they want a contractor who will have the ability to repeat, three-peat and four-peat during business hours.
> 
> Understood on the liability.
> 
> ...


Yup, I agree on this as well. But we are all here to learn and if a newbie goes out and lays salt down like this when he has a customer that does not want it like this, then some of us would be remiss in pointing out the other side of the coin.

Like Jay Brown and others have stated, if I left my lots looking like that on anything close to a regular basis, I wouldn't have those customers anymore. I get calls if I do it once. Maybe the conservative side of MI is actually more environmentally sensitive than the east side. And just like the IPM example I used, methods change when people realize they aren't as necessary as one used to think.

And if anyone missed it, I am as far from being an enviro-Nazi as you can get, but I do believe it is our duty to use our resources wisely.


----------



## Puddlejumper (Sep 16, 2008)

HinikerPrototyp;759881 said:


> Its funny to read all the posts, sounds to me that must be how the negative posters salt. The snow fall was a dusting less then 1/4 inch then the wind blew 15 mph .The lots weren't even covered in snow.We take care of many commercial lots and lmao we didn't spread a crumb.Pure over kill, sweep the lot and get a coffee can, yeah right.Its called bend over and charge the company for the use of something that wasn't needed,mean while we have to pay though the nose for salt.As for taking pictures of lots i don't do, is there a law against that?


Huh? Just curious but what dusting would that have been? After the thaw? Just trying to get an idea so I can build my knowledge of salting.


----------



## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

Showmestaterida;756386 said:


> ditto, Prices are starting to drop around stl too. Maybe they will learn their lesson.


really? at least for bagged in NJ they keep going up!

I paid in the mid $3 range to start... then it was $4.15 in jan, then 4.35 for few weeks, then $4.50 a week after that but i didnt order then... got some more skids @ $4.90 just last week :/

Biggest kicker is that my normal supplier, when i was using another vendor at $4.35, they were $5.04, and couldnt negotiate much. When my 2nd vendor went ot $4.50, i called the $5.04 guys back to see if they could drop it at least to $4.85 since they are a bit closer. They said their new price was $5.49 lol. When i got my last batch for $4.90 bag, my normal vendor was $5.79, for a BAG of salt! We buy a bare minimum of 2 skids per time we visit the vendor in say a pickup bed. If im ordering more we get the trailer loaded up. crazy.


----------

