# BVR China Loader VS Cat 906H



## Triple L

Had the chance to demo a china loader today against my loader over at our yard...

Overall it was an ok snow machine, a few more improvements over the years and they'll be somewhat competitive... Air brakes on a loader was different and being a torque converter machine over hydrostatic like my cat

Overall the same size machine the Cat could lift another 1000 lbs more but it also weights more and has about 6hp more if that counts LOL


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## MIDTOWNPC

so did you guys talk about parts at all
Is there a spec sheet for that loader and maybe yours you can post

Tires look small. I thought you guys would race em down the street. Lol


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## JD Dave

Whats the cost of each?


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## MIDTOWNPC

I think the china is $26 on kijiji and the cat $75 ?


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## Triple L

China loader does 22 km/h
Cat does 35km/h

China loader is $31,000
Cat is about $80,000

China loader is china motor, hydraulics but izuzu axles...


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## Pristine PM ltd

It wasn't fast, and was slower in getting to top speed. All in all, for half the price, hard to complain, and once parts are in place, it might be worth the risk.


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## greywynd

Had to chuckle a little while watching the video, I was in to the local Cat dealer today, and was looking at a 988H they had in for some repair work. I was thinking how nice it would be as a snow machine, though it's actually a bit on the large size.

I actually really liked using a 644 JD loader (20 ton) for snow, it would handle a 16' box with ease, and load trucks in 3-4 buckets for removals. 

I think the ideal, all around size would be a 930 Cat, or a 544 JD, or their equivalent. That would handle a 14-16' box, load trucks quick and easy, and still be small enough to do any commercial site that requires any tight corners etc.


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## ScnicExcellence

Triple L;1380124 said:


> China loader does 22 km/h
> Cat does 35km/h
> 
> China loader is $31,000
> Cat is about $80,000
> 
> China loader is china motor, hydraulics but izuzu axles...


Your cat has high speed option right or is that standard? think it is option.


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## ScnicExcellence

Next week i will probably bring down the smaller unit to play around with see what you think about that one.


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## Triple L

I dont know, my cat has every option there is less high flow


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## newhere

looks like a ok loader, maybe one size larger would be good. That looks like a 904 size. 

and for anyone that is looking some one has a NICE 904h for sale on craigs list for 30 grand. low hours


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## greywynd

Chad, you have an optional high gear for transport.

http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=308866&x=7

There's the 906H page


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## ScnicExcellence

Triple L;1380145 said:


> I dont know, my cat has every option there is less high flow


Yea just looked it up, the cat 906 spec says 35km/h is optional high speed and regular is 20km/h


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## greywynd

Triple L;1380124 said:


> China loader does 22 km/h
> Cat does 35km/h
> 
> China loader is $31,000
> Cat is about $80,000
> 
> China loader is china motor, hydraulics but izuzu axles...


So those would be also known as 'Duramax' axles? :laughing::laughing:


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## Triple L

newhere;1380147 said:


> looks like a ok loader, maybe one size larger would be good. That looks like a 904 size.
> 
> and for anyone that is looking some one has a NICE 904h for sale on craigs list for 30 grand. low hours


size wise they're almost the same legnth and heigth and the cat was a bit wider...


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## JD Dave

31k is cheaper then I thought. As a country we all have to start buying things made here. When I went xmas shopping it made me sick seeing where all the crap we buy is made.


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## newhere

i think a 908 is a really nice sized machine. 

I know of a guy that has 244j's with BX-12 boss boxes and he says they push them perfectly


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## pieperlc

JD Dave;1380182 said:


> 31k is cheaper then I thought. As a country we all have to start buying things made here. When I went xmas shopping it made me sick seeing where all the crap we buy is made.


It is sickening when you look at labels. I always buy "North" American when possible, and "when possible" is getting harder and harder.

To the original post, that loader looks decent when you look at price. Though, when I first saw it I though the steel from the pivot point forward looked weak and small. Looks like the guy driving it had his knees above the steering wheel too. My experience with China "stuff" , you get what you pay for. It's probably cheap for a reason. It would be cool for someone to run a cat and this thing side by side for a year or more and weigh the results.


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## Peterbilt

Is it me or is that bucket WAY out in front of that machine? Might they consider that "High lift"? If lift arms were shorter it would lift more.

Also got some pretty small looking tires on it, are they standard skid loader size? 

J


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## ScnicExcellence

Peterbilt;1380210 said:


> Is it me or is that bucket WAY out in front of that machine? Might they consider that "High lift"? If lift arms were shorter it would lift more.
> 
> Also got some pretty small looking tires on it, are they standard skid loader size?
> 
> J


It is a high lift on there.

tires are 20.5 16 they are way bigger then the standard 12 16.5 skidsteer tires


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## ScnicExcellence

JD Dave;1380182 said:


> 31k is cheaper then I thought. As a country we all have to start buying things made here. When I went xmas shopping it made me sick seeing where all the crap we buy is made.


The days of things being made here is going away now, although we are looking into manufacturing or cab and rear engine hood in Canada, as well our compactors and skidsteers will at one point either be assembled here with some parts still made in china, or made here and assembled here. only so far you can go befor the prices are not competitive enough to go for a new company.


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## JohnnyRoyale

Definitely a Chinese machine...the left signal was on through the entire video.


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## Mr.Markus

The Cat looked way smoother. If I had to choose as an operator I would look at that and comfort.


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## Triple L

The cat is most defentially a smoother machine, you can road it everywhere with the ride control and ossicilation in the pivot point... Both of which the chinese loader dosent have... I fursure wouldn't be roading the chinese loader everywhere, its something that gets left onsite...


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## Triple L

JohnnyRoyale;1380365 said:


> Definitely a Chinese machine...the left signal was on through the entire video.


All the guages and everything is in chinese LOL


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## blowerman

JD Dave;1380182 said:


> 31k is cheaper then I thought. As a country we all have to start buying things made here. When I went xmas shopping it made me sick seeing where all the crap we buy is made.


But the Canadians make the best snowblowers, (Normand-Pronovost) so I can't get those is the US. 
Seriously though, I try supporting local as much as I can. The relationship with local dealers, vendors and suppliers is priceless.


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## JD Dave

blowerman;1380400 said:


> But the Canadians make the best snowblowers, (Normand-Pronovost) so I can't get those is the US.
> Seriously though, I try supporting local as much as I can. The relationship with local dealers, vendors and suppliers is priceless.


Our tractors and combine are all made in the good ole USA. Actually most of my stuff is made in the USA. Maybe I have to find a Canadian made farm equipment line.  The USA has the same standard of living as ours so I should have said we need to start buying North American.


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## Triple L

I couldn't imagine what north america would be like if all their engines ran as dirty as this thing... Buddy said china will be the leader in emission standards in the next 5 years... This thing was staight from the manifold to a muffler that didn't work out and man she smoked good...


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## G.Landscape

I laughed when someone said "She sure is smoking" ...oh ya that's the Chinese gas, haha. 

How was the cab, video seemed really tight, or maybe just really tall driver. 
You always run that low pressure in your cat loader?


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## Triple L

Jon pristine was driving it there, he has to be 6'6" or taller...

That tire pressure is perfect 98% of the time on the cat... Drives down the road super good like almost as nice as a pickup and we don't usually put that much weight on it...


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## vegaman04

Why not look into a Komatsu loader?


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## ScnicExcellence

JohnnyRoyale;1380365 said:


> Definitely a Chinese machine...the left signal was on through the entire video.


Thats because it wasnt turned off!


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## StuveCorp

Peterbilt;1380210 said:


> Is it me or is that bucket WAY out in front of that machine? Might they consider that "High lift"? If lift arms were shorter it would lift more.
> 
> Also got some pretty small looking tires on it, are they standard skid loader size?
> 
> J


I wondered that too. Even at that low price there is no way I'd go for it, needs massive R&D time to get it viable. Give them five years it may be better but I don't want to be a guinea pig...


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## ScnicExcellence

What do you guys want to see from a chinese loader to make it a viable purchase? Warranty? Parts? What options? I understand somethings but clarification could be used for others.

As a landscaper and snowplow company i dont see as many issues as others do, i use the loader as a machine for my company. It gets the job done for less then half the price.


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## rob_cook2001

What we need from the Chinese loader is for it to be sold in CHINA.... ill stop before the rant starts.


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## dfd9

Triple L;1380391 said:


> The cat is most defentially a smoother machine, you can road it everywhere with the ride control and ossicilation in the pivot point... Both of which the chinese loader dosent have... I fursure wouldn't be roading the chinese loader everywhere, its something that gets left onsite...


You PWD again Chad? More red lines from typos than I've seen in a whole thread.



ScnicExcellence;1380661 said:


> What do you guys want to see from a chinese loader to make it a viable purchase? Warranty? Parts? What options? I understand somethings but clarification could be used for others.
> 
> As a landscaper and snowplow company i dont see as many issues as others do, i use the loader as a machine for my company. It gets the job done for less then half the price.





rob_cook2001;1380773 said:


> What we need from the Chinese loader is for it to be sold in CHINA.... ill stop before the rant starts.


Dangit, beat me to it.

What do I want to see from a Chinese loader? How about a sticker that says "Made in North America." (that's for you Dave lol) By North Americans. Supporting other North Americans.

Anyways, for the same price I can buy a JD tractor that weighs aboot 1K more than a similar Kubota. And the JD is just more tractor, it's a feeling.

Personally, I would never depend on something unproven and without a good parts network for snowplowing, no matter the price.


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## Triple L

Scenic - do these have glow plugs or grid heaters?


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## ScnicExcellence

Triple L;1380825 said:


> Scenic - do these have glow plugs or grid heaters?


They have block heaters and air intake heaters.


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## ScnicExcellence

dfd9;1380811 said:


> You PWD again Chad? More red lines from typos than I've seen in a whole thread.
> 
> Dangit, beat me to it.
> 
> What do I want to see from a Chinese loader? How about a sticker that says "Made in North America." (that's for you Dave lol) By North Americans. Supporting other North Americans.
> 
> Anyways, for the same price I can buy a JD tractor that weighs aboot 1K more than a similar Kubota. And the JD is just more tractor, it's a feeling.
> 
> Personally, I would never depend on something unproven and without a good parts network for snowplowing, no matter the price.


Hey that feeling that you have for john deere, is that a good feeling that you have for India, as that is where their tractors up to 75 hp are made, good old INDIA the last time i checked India was not north America. (this is something you have to do some digging for the info but it is out there.)

Besides, i asked i guess i got the answer from some people, now what if the cab and engine hood as well as the tilt arms and bucket mounts were all made here? with a cummins engine for the bigger one and a kubota engine for the smaller one with italian made hydraulics. possibly have the hydraulic hoses made here in ontario as well. Then what would you want to see from it? the cab is going to be remade to be bigger then what it is now, to make it more comfortable.

I think that more people need to operate the machine. In a couple weeks i will hold another test for people to try them out again, (if parts are an issue we will order all the parts you need to have in stock for when you need them)


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## dfd9

ScnicExcellence;1380835 said:


> Hey that feeling that you have for john deere, is that a good feeling that you have for India, as that is where their tractors up to 75 hp are made, good old INDIA the last time i checked India was not north America. (this is something you have to do some digging for the info but it is out there.)
> 
> Besides, i asked i guess i got the answer from some people, now what if the cab and engine hood as well as the tilt arms and bucket mounts were all made here? with a cummins engine for the bigger one and a kubota engine for the smaller one with italian made hydraulics. possibly have the hydraulic hoses made here in ontario as well. Then what would you want to see from it? the cab is going to be remade to be bigger then what it is now, to make it more comfortable.
> 
> I think that more people need to operate the machine. In a couple weeks i will hold another test for people to try them out again, (if parts are an issue we will order all the parts you need to have in stock for when you need them)


Good to know, the JD and India thing.

Too bad mine is over 75HP. So much for that.

BTW, I like the cab setup of my 'Bota better than the JD as well as the transmission. But I got a pretty good deal on the Kubota. Unless I come across another one, my next tractor will be green as well. Because when I grow up I want to be just like JD Dave. Except the bald part.


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## rob_cook2001

I will have to look again but if I remember only the very small (-25hp) machines are made in India.
Then up to 100hp is made in Europe. But even on the Indian made ones the MONEY stays in the states (North America.


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## ScnicExcellence

dfd9;1380853 said:


> Good to know, the JD and India thing.
> 
> Too bad mine is over 75HP. So much for that.
> 
> BTW, I like the cab setup of my 'Bota better than the JD as well as the transmission. But I got a pretty good deal on the Kubota. Unless I come across another one, my next tractor will be green as well. Because when I grow up I want to be just like JD Dave. Except the bald part.


Everyone has their opinions, there are alot of people that want certain things but get others. Give it one year and you will be interested in our loaders as well. Obviously when the quality gets to a north american point and the design is there as well, the price will be going up. but thats with everything. By next winter our 1500kg loader will be really good value and a great machine. as of now, they are good for the money you pay for them, cannot be beat for the price and workability combined of the machine. Everyone will see with time. The machines are great as they are even with their little issues ( that we are fixing ) they are still good value.

I love Kubota machines and have always been around them. My dad has a bunch of them for his machines. Next spring he is buying our equipment to work along side his Kubota equipment.

This winter i will put the loader out to work, see what it can do for snow. I can say that i think there will be no disappointment there, especially for a snow machine. I truly believe that the loaders are great for landscapers and Snow plowing companies. When you are looking to save money and get something that can do the work for you, this is the way to go. If you can handle having a machine without all the fancy bells and whistles, then this machine is great. i admit i would love to offer the fancy option Cat does, but with a price tag i can offer any option you want at any quality you want.


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## ScnicExcellence

rob_cook2001;1380920 said:


> I will have to look again but if I remember only the very small (-25hp) machines are made in India.
> Then up to 100hp is made in Europe. But even on the Indian made ones the MONEY stays in the states (North America.


So where is the profit from these loaders going? Tell me where the profit goes and how it is not staying in our country? There are no loaders made in Canada, and the 906 Cat is made in Germany. the argument of American made, is irrelevant. The argument of American Quality is definitely relevant for this situation. We can sit here and argue back and forth over where this and that is made. doesn't matter, what matters is when you buy the product that you get what you want for the price that you paid. I am sorry but the days of buying North american products are going south. The days of buying north american company products being made in China is the future and the now! BVR is not a chinese owned company. BVR is a CANADIAN owned company. The designs are partially influenced by the company and the quality is worked on with every issue found. Every issue brought up from a customer is dealt with and have a plan for future changes to fix the problem from happening again on any machines also any machines that have been sold already.

Its the company behind it not only the country it comes from.


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## SNOWLORD

Loaders are made to Load. Sure we use them for all sorts of other things, if you have the two loaders side by side again or for that matter any loader, here is a simple quick test that will tell you alot quickly, I do this myself on every one. Load the bucket full of dirt or sand, if the machine has auto lift use it if not raise the bucket at least 8ft or more, now back up quickly away from the pile, turn sharp as if you were going to square off with a truck you would be loading. You will be amazed at how some machines almost tip over doing the very thing they were built to do. You will know what I mean once you try this. In the two loaders you have in the video I garuntee the cat will feel 3times as stable in performing this task. Im not saying the other machine is junk but just something to think about. I also agree about buying things built here!


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## ScnicExcellence

SNOWLORD;1380979 said:


> Loaders are made to Load. Sure we use them for all sorts of other things, if you have the two loaders side by side again or for that matter any loader, here is a simple quick test that will tell you alot quickly, I do this myself on every one. Load the bucket full of dirt or sand, if the machine has auto lift use it if not raise the bucket at least 8ft or more, now back up quickly away from the pile, turn sharp as if you were going to square off with a truck you would be loading. You will be amazed at how some machines almost tip over doing the very thing they were built to do. You will know what I mean once you try this. In the two loaders you have in the video I garuntee the cat will feel 3times as stable in performing this task. Im not saying the other machine is junk but just something to think about. I also agree about buying things built here!


This is just bad operating procedure, i am sorry, but anybody that digs into a pile then lifts the arms up 8 ft in the air before backing up and turning sharply should not be operating.


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## SNOWLORD

Maybe I exaggerated a little but I think you know what I mean. It is done in a quarry thousands of times a day, the quarry operators dont back up stop and then wait for bucket to raise, then drive forward.


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## rob_cook2001

ScnicExcellence;1380994 said:


> This is just bad operating procedure, i am sorry, but anybody that digs into a pile then lifts the arms up 8 ft in the air before backing up and turning sharply should not be operating.


That is not realistic, it's easy to say certain methods are unsafe but you need to live in the real world where time is money. I have over 2500 hours of experience running loaders in a production setting (928-980 size machines). The only people you see_ not_ doing this are inexperienced operators. If your going to be productive and keep your job you need to keep moving _all_ of the time. Each stop is wasted money. If your machine is moving your boom should be moving with it. Do you have to be careful doing this? YES but its something that is done day in and day out, you need to be careful doing anything with equipment. I'm not attempting to lurk on this thread and bust you every chance but saying the aforementioned test is bad operating procedure is just saying, "Yeah these things can't do that, but you wouldn't want to anyways," as a justification for the poor stability of the machine.


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## SNOWLORD

rob_cook2001;1381043 said:


> That is not realistic, it's easy to say certain methods are unsafe but you need to live in the real world where time is money. I have over 2500 hours of experience running loaders in a production setting (928-980 size machines). The only people you see_ not_ doing this are inexperienced operators. If your going to be productive and keep your job you need to keep moving _all_ of the time. Each stop is wasted money. If your machine is moving your boom should be moving with it. Do you have to be careful doing this? YES but its something that is done day in and day out, you need to be careful doing anything with equipment. I'm not attempting to lurk on this thread and bust you every chance but saying the aforementioned test is bad operating procedure is just saying, "Yeah these things can't do that, but you wouldn't want to anyways," as a justification for the poor stability of the machine.


Thanks thats basically what I was trying to say. You are apparently better at explaining it than I am.


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## StuveCorp

ScnicExcellence;1380661 said:


> What do you guys want to see from a chinese loader to make it a viable purchase? Warranty? Parts? What options? I understand somethings but clarification could be used for others.
> 
> As a landscaper and snowplow company i dont see as many issues as others do, i use the loader as a machine for my company. It gets the job done for less then half the price.


That is a fair question and I will offer some of my opinions. One thing that I think the 'Chinese' loaders miss on is trying to be so cheap or throwing in 'name' brand components rather than making a machine that is productive and durable and has no fit and finish issues. Look at the loaders from Case, Volvo or Cat to name a few(they are the ones I am most familiar with). I think if you go over the specs of say the Cat 906 or Case 221 or 321 and then build the machine that truly matches up to them, then start worrying about the warranty, financing and parts issues.


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## R.G.PEEL

My $.02. 

I like the vid they took and was surprised at how objective Chad (who I consider a friend, but is certainly Cat biased in every way shape and form) remained. Good for you for simply showing what they could do Chad. 

As for the operators knees being above the wheel, Jon was recently in my lifted Crew cab dually and made it look small! I've never sat in this loader and so can't say big or small, but you can't use PPM as a size reference for anything!

Those who say buy local or buy "made in Canada"..... "BUY GOOD PRODUCTS AT GOOD PRICES" I could honestly care less who gets the money I spend as long as it makes me the highest profits. Bobcat for instance, has lots of "made in america" stickers on the booms of their excavators. They certainly are build and sold out of north dakota. The parts are stamped in Japan, with Kubota engines and Doosan designing many of the new (very nice) hoes. The only issue I've ever had with the 'offshore' parts manufacturing is when some of the japanese manufacturing facilities were wiped out in the spring's floods and couldn't get me some parts I had ordered. I try to spend as much as I can with people/companies I personally know. Beyond that, if I don't know you, you can live in missisauga or outback australia for all I care. If your jobs leave overseas, adapt to something that is profitable here. Dummy work like metal stamping can happen anywhere. Let it go to low bidder. Just hold them to high quaity tollerances and materials. 

The loader looks a lot better than I expected, but still looks as if it employs a lot of older tech. I won't be buying one without seeing the 5+yr old machines and how they hold together. Some will bite at the low prices and be the test subjects. At that point if they hold together well, they will make a fantastic machine for those who rent snow loaders or buy strictly for plowing. Assuming low maintainance costs, they would be very good for putting a paid operator in for 150 hrs/season. The 30 000 price difference per unit is pretty attractive in that scenario. As an owner/operator machine, or a machine that will work all day everyday, the comfort and any additional performance need to be there. If you can load 1 more truck/hr with the industry leading machine, you make up the price difference very very quickly. Daily driven machines are always worth buying the best, regardless of price.

With respect to the backing up full turn with the bucket up. This is NOT common practice and if it is, the operators should be canned. To push the machine to the point of failure when comparing models, this would be a great test. To suggest that it would be a good common practice, or defend that stance, is silly. A good operator isn't just someone who knows the control pattern like the back of their hands. They should be setting up in a way that doesn't require full crank turns. The machine should be making a very mild turn from the pile to the truck, more of a lateral shift than a change of direction. The bucket should be raised as the machine backs almost straight up, and then almost straight back forward. If it's doing full crank turns with the bucket all the way up, not only is the operator posing a safety hazzard, he's putting undue stress and wear on the machine. 

Scnic. What I want to see in the next test is not tipping load. Tipping load is essential in choosing a loader but if it isn't enough there is always a bigger model. I would like to see a weight within the R.O.C of the machine doing full cycles from ground to max height and back down. Repeat this over a set period of time, say 1 minute. compare. Fill the buckets, put it in free float, with the cutting edge angled slightly up. Now drag race. Lift the bucket and drag race in reverse. Set up an obstacle course requiring delicate procedures and run the machines through it to test how accurately the machine can be controlled. These are how to compare productivity objectively.


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## ScnicExcellence

rob_cook2001;1381043 said:


> That is not realistic, it's easy to say certain methods are unsafe but you need to live in the real world where time is money. I have over 2500 hours of experience running loaders in a production setting (928-980 size machines). The only people you see_ not_ doing this are inexperienced operators. If your going to be productive and keep your job you need to keep moving _all_ of the time. Each stop is wasted money. If your machine is moving your boom should be moving with it. Do you have to be careful doing this? YES but its something that is done day in and day out, you need to be careful doing anything with equipment. I'm not attempting to lurk on this thread and bust you every chance but saying the aforementioned test is bad operating procedure is just saying, "Yeah these things can't do that, but you wouldn't want to anyways," as a justification for the poor stability of the machine.


That is where you are wrong, if you ask the guys tat were there the day of doing this, they will tell you i was honest and don't hide things, would rather have it out there and get a response on things to do to either fix or make better. There is not a comparison of a large pit loader to a small compact loader. What i was trying to say was it was exaggerated and needed to be reworded pretty much, because have the arms up 8 ft in the air on a machine that is only 6 ft wide with a full bucket is a bad idea no mater what machine you are using to make sharp turns abruptly. please tell me i am wrong here and i will gladly leave it alone with some proof from you.


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## ScnicExcellence

R.G.PEEL;1381238 said:


> My $.02.
> 
> I like the vid they took and was surprised at how objective Chad (who I consider a friend, but is certainly Cat biased in every way shape and form) remained. Good for you for simply showing what they could do Chad.
> 
> As for the operators knees being above the wheel, Jon was recently in my lifted Crew cab dually and made it look small! I've never sat in this loader and so can't say big or small, but you can't use PPM as a size reference for anything!
> 
> Those who say buy local or buy "made in Canada"..... "BUY GOOD PRODUCTS AT GOOD PRICES" I could honestly care less who gets the money I spend as long as it makes me the highest profits. Bobcat for instance, has lots of "made in america" stickers on the booms of their excavators. They certainly are build and sold out of north dakota. The parts are stamped in Japan, with Kubota engines and Doosan designing many of the new (very nice) hoes. The only issue I've ever had with the 'offshore' parts manufacturing is when some of the japanese manufacturing facilities were wiped out in the spring's floods and couldn't get me some parts I had ordered. I try to spend as much as I can with people/companies I personally know. Beyond that, if I don't know you, you can live in missisauga or outback australia for all I care. If your jobs leave overseas, adapt to something that is profitable here. Dummy work like metal stamping can happen anywhere. Let it go to low bidder. Just hold them to high quaity tollerances and materials.
> 
> The loader looks a lot better than I expected, but still looks as if it employs a lot of older tech. I won't be buying one without seeing the 5+yr old machines and how they hold together. Some will bite at the low prices and be the test subjects. At that point if they hold together well, they will make a fantastic machine for those who rent snow loaders or buy strictly for plowing. Assuming low maintainance costs, they would be very good for putting a paid operator in for 150 hrs/season. The 30 000 price difference per unit is pretty attractive in that scenario. As an owner/operator machine, or a machine that will work all day everyday, the comfort and any additional performance need to be there. If you can load 1 more truck/hr with the industry leading machine, you make up the price difference very very quickly. Daily driven machines are always worth buying the best, regardless of price.
> 
> With respect to the backing up full turn with the bucket up. This is NOT common practice and if it is, the operators should be canned. To push the machine to the point of failure when comparing models, this would be a great test. To suggest that it would be a good common practice, or defend that stance, is silly. A good operator isn't just someone who knows the control pattern like the back of their hands. They should be setting up in a way that doesn't require full crank turns. The machine should be making a very mild turn from the pile to the truck, more of a lateral shift than a change of direction. The bucket should be raised as the machine backs almost straight up, and then almost straight back forward. If it's doing full crank turns with the bucket all the way up, not only is the operator posing a safety hazzard, he's putting undue stress and wear on the machine.
> 
> Scnic. What I want to see in the next test is not tipping load. Tipping load is essential in choosing a loader but if it isn't enough there is always a bigger model. I would like to see a weight within the R.O.C of the machine doing full cycles from ground to max height and back down. Repeat this over a set period of time, say 1 minute. compare. Fill the buckets, put it in free float, with the cutting edge angled slightly up. Now drag race. Lift the bucket and drag race in reverse. Set up an obstacle course requiring delicate procedures and run the machines through it to test how accurately the machine can be controlled. These are how to compare productivity objectively.


Thank you very much.

This is very good for me to read off of, and the critique given here is something that i can work with.

As far as the lift cycle times and loading trucks, the machine is rated within 0.2 seconds of the 906 cycle time. our smaller model is actually faster by 2 seconds/cycle. Which as you said every truck counts.

As far as comfort in the operator cabin we are working on new design of cabin for bigger and more comfortable, for people that are bigger then the average. Controls will be easier to use and easier to read. As far as the gauges being in Chinese. There is some writing on the gauges in chinese but not all(mainly just the company name that made the gauge), and they all have english on them. like i said before the more feedback that is viable from people the better they can get to an extent, have to keep the price to an attractive price, Because no matter what if it is not attractive the machine can be the best one on the market and people will never buy it.
As for the test, lets set up another test and do exactly as stated here. or any other ideas you may have. i would like to see a 904 machine instead of a 906 but gotta work with what is there. if someone has a 904 and wants to do this comparison let me know, i will gladly do it. This loaders are not for everyone, but the idea of this was to prove that they are not the crap a-lot of people thought they were. We have already put into the works to upgrade the R.O.C on the machine for that size up about 200kgs and taking the high lift arms off, at first we thought the high lift would be attractive but now understand it has its place, not in regular everyday use though. so that will increase the operating capacity. Also the stability. We are currently looking into doing a ride control system as well. There are a few things we have plans for on our next models and will dramatically increase the overall feel of operation. it will also increase cost as well.


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## JD Dave

ScnicExcellence;1381250 said:


> That is where you are wrong, if you ask the guys tat were there the day of doing this, they will tell you i was honest and don't hide things, would rather have it out there and get a response on things to do to either fix or make better. There is not a comparison of a large pit loader to a small compact loader. What i was trying to say was it was exaggerated and needed to be reworded pretty much, because have the arms up 8 ft in the air on a machine that is only 6 ft wide with a full bucket is a bad idea no mater what machine you are using to make sharp turns abruptly. please tell me i am wrong here and i will gladly leave it alone with some proof from you.


Chad did you say you were probably to honest so that is a good thing. Hard to believe you can get a loader like that for less money then a skid. All our JD tractors and implements are made in the good ole USA. That's the whole reason we only own 7000 series and bigger tractors. Go take a tour of the Waterloo JD plant and you'll understand. Bringing manufacturing home is the way of the future, at least for my kids sake I hope so. I wish you the best of luck with your new business, I think if the reliability is there you won't have a problem selling them.


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## SNOWLORD

I respect everyones opinion. RG Peel makes several good points, lets remember I never said this was a bad machine. The point I was trying to make is that my loaders spend more time doing one thing than any other and that is driving into a pile of material (dirt snow sand etc) then backing out turning and loading thats what they are designed to do, so that is what I test when I try them out. I have several decades of owning and operating them. If I have several trucks hired and they are waiting on one end or the other I get angry. So I tell my guys to move quickly, and yes in a perfect world you may not do exactly what I described but it will happen and if you have a 2hour window to try a loader I guess I will try what I know happens. Right or wrong I am the one paying for the equipment and I can tell you certain loaders feel much more unstable than others. No matter how careful you are. I do agree with the cycle times comment from RG Peel as well.


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## R.G.PEEL

For stability try a wider axle or an offset rim kit. 

JD- With you as a father/mentor and the farming business set up you have, I doubt your kids will ever work in the factories. I back your choice of JD for their quality and have seen pics of their facilities. They are unreal. Now think if they built that same factory in korea, built the parts there, shipped them here for assembly (tractors don't ship easily) and had the same great product for 10k cheaper. Think how much better off your children (future tractor buyers) will be then! 

Scnic. I think you are absolutely, certifiably, staightjacket worthy, rubber padded walls type of nuts. The industry you are trying to enter is saturated with big money companies employing excellent R and D teams. I hope one day you call and say "Hey grant, remember when you said I was nuts? I'm a millionaire now." I honestly wish you the best, and Chad mentioned that you were as honest as it gets. That being said, you're asking for constructive input and that's what you should get on here. I commend you for your clear dedication to improving what you have and I hope you can make some money at it. I like this video a lot but the next comparisons should be well within the ROC of both machines as opposed to close to peak. Use 5000 lb weight to test a 7000lb lift capacity for example and show how well it can do it. Its important to have that little bit of extra power when needed, but you aren't on tipping loads all day at work. If you are, buy something bigger!


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## Triple L

I thought tipping load was the rated operational capacity


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## R.G.PEEL

LOL, you would! If I ever need to immediately find out what the max any machine is capable of you will be my first call. To clarify, from what I've seen Chad actually runs the machines smooth and properly, but will instantly find something to test the extremes of its capabilities.

Example: I rented the 906 from him in the spring to carry gravel. It is far faster than my skidsteers and I had to move 27 loads of gravel about 250 ft one bucket at a time. About halfway through, the hill we had to climb was so rutted (it was a very wet spring and the ground was sloppy as hell) that the loader was fighting for traction the whole time and it became quicker to use the slower skidsteer because of its wide tracks and low ground pressure. Chad was nice enough to let me keep using his larger bucket and came to have lunch with us onsite. Agreeing that the hill was super sloppy, he immediately tried running the cat up it! It made it, but bottomed out the entire way. I wouldn't describe him as abusive (rentals not included) but rather someone who has to know the EXACT limit of any machine.


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## Triple L

Thanks Grant, what you said is pretty much exactly the way it is... I dont consider what I do abusive, and I know I'm a very good machine operator... In my oponion, a very good operator should always know the capabilities of his machine...


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## Triple L

To clarify, I was the one running the cat and taking the movies, Pristine PM was the big guy driving the china loader and the china loader guy (scenic excellence) was the one doing the tipping load test of his loader


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## Pristine PM ltd

skinny big guy.... I went for a jog tonight... man.... out of shape.


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## greywynd

Pristine PM ltd;1381435 said:


> skinny big guy.... I went for a jog tonight... man.... out of shape.


That's something I can admit to, without needing to try jogging first!! You really need to get out of the office more if you have to go jogging for exercise! :laughing:


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## ScnicExcellence

Triple L;1381413 said:


> To clarify, I was the one running the cat and taking the movies, Pristine PM was the big guy driving the china loader and the china loader guy (scenic excellence) was the one doing the tipping load test of his loader


I may have pushed the loader to the limits, but i knew when to stop to not break anything. The only way to know the limit of something is by putting it to that limit, but a good operator will stop before the limit is exceeded and breaks something. To operate a machine you need to be patient, and understand the machine. I don't care how many people say they can operate anything or have for years. put them in my machine against me in my machine and they will loose. You operate the particular machine not the particular type of machine.

When the cold is gone i will take one of our next set of loaders out to the farm and put it through a full day of testing any kind of testing i can imagine that will show the capabilities of the loader. Without trying to ruin it.

Pristine is a good guy, he took it easy on the machine. If i was driving the whole time it would've been going a lot faster doing the same work because it is my machine and i will work it to what it can do. just goes to show that he is a respect full guy of others items. thank you.

I am very respect full of others until i have a reason not to be, that is why i am honest. If i there is a problem that i know of i will explain it and explain what we are doing to fix it. The issues i pointed out are almost done with the design and testing part so will be finished very soon. i actually just sent it to the factory to have the engineering rechecked and tested.


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## ScnicExcellence

greywynd;1381462 said:


> That's something I can admit to, without needing to try jogging first!! You really need to get out of the office more if you have to go jogging for exercise! :laughing:


Same here, i am not in any kind of shape for sports or almost anything. i have to start doing more landscaping again and stop having laborers do it for me.


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## dfd9

ScnicExcellence;1380928 said:


> Everyone has their opinions, there are alot of people that want certain things but get others. *Give it one year and you will be interested in our loaders as well.* Obviously when the quality gets to a north american point and the design is there as well, the price will be going up. but thats with everything. By next winter our 1500kg loader will be really good value and a great machine. as of now, they are good for the money you pay for them, cannot be beat for the price and workability combined of the machine. Everyone will see with time. The machines are great as they are even with their little issues ( that we are fixing ) they are still good value.
> 
> I love Kubota machines and have always been around them. My dad has a bunch of them for his machines. Next spring he is buying our equipment to work along side his Kubota equipment.
> 
> This winter i will put the loader out to work, see what it can do for snow. I can say that i think there will be no disappointment there, especially for a snow machine. I truly believe that the loaders are great for landscapers and Snow plowing companies. When you are looking to save money and get something that can do the work for you, this is the way to go. If you can handle having a machine without all the fancy bells and whistles, then this machine is great. i admit i would love to offer the fancy option Cat does, but with a price tag i can offer any option you want at any quality you want.


Maybe, and maybe not. Don't hold your breath, though. Price is not the most important deciding factor to me. Reliability is first. I would rather pay 100% more for something that is going to seldom break down vs half for something will break often and parts may or may not be available.

There is a huge difference between price and cost, and what you are selling right now is price, not cost.



ScnicExcellence;1380941 said:


> So where is the profit from these loaders going? Tell me where the profit goes and how it is not staying in our country? There are no loaders made in Canada, and the 906 Cat is made in Germany. the argument of American made, is irrelevant. The argument of American Quality is definitely relevant for this situation. We can sit here and argue back and forth over where this and that is made. doesn't matter, what matters is when you buy the product that you get what you want for the price that you paid. I am sorry but the days of buying North american products are going south. *The days of buying north american company products being made in China is the future and the now! *BVR is not a chinese owned company. BVR is a CANADIAN owned company. The designs are partially influenced by the company and the quality is worked on with every issue found. Every issue brought up from a customer is dealt with and have a plan for future changes to fix the problem from happening again on any machines also any machines that have been sold already.
> 
> Its the company behind it not only the country it comes from.


Has been for quite some time, that's why your southern neighbor's economy is in the crapper and has been. The "service" industry crap that economists spew is just that, crap. Wages are not the same for a service person compared to a factory worker, even if the factory job's wages were too high. It just isn't there.

And the only reason that any manufacturing jobs are coming back to North America (Canada and USA) is because the lack of quality in Mexico, China, etc, etc, etc. Companies are finding out the cost is less than the price to have stuff manufactured here.



R.G.PEEL;1381394 said:


> LOL, you would! If I ever need to immediately find out what the max any machine is capable of you will be my first call. To clarify, from what I've seen Chad actually runs the machines smooth and properly, but will instantly find something to test the extremes of its capabilities.
> 
> Example: I rented the 906 from him in the spring to carry gravel. It is far faster than my skidsteers and I had to move 27 loads of gravel about 250 ft one bucket at a time. About halfway through, the hill we had to climb was so rutted (it was a very wet spring and the ground was sloppy as hell) that the loader was fighting for traction the whole time and it became quicker to use the slower skidsteer because of its wide tracks and low ground pressure. Chad was nice enough to let me keep using his larger bucket and came to have lunch with us onsite. Agreeing that the hill was super sloppy, he immediately tried running the cat up it! It made it, but bottomed out the entire way. I wouldn't describe him as abusive (rentals not included) but rather someone who has to know the EXACT limit of any machine.


I do the same thing, because at some point in time, that machine will be used to its limits. And if it is going to be a regular occurrence, I need to look at a different machine, because doing that day in and day out will cause the machine to wear out faster consequently making my COST higher.


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## DeVries

I guess in all of this scenic if you haven't made a sale you at least got a lot of exposure ot of this little loader roadeo you guys had.


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## ScnicExcellence

No sale yet but there is still alot of uncertainty from alot of people because they didnt see in person. Alot of nit pickers look at our machines and when cant find an actual problem they make little things into big things. I am not saying everyone does this but if someone is offended by that comment then they are the ones who do it. We know there are some issues and we are fixing them. I would love for more people to. Come next time and have more views from different people. I can say that the look on pristines and triple l faces when we pulled up was good because they were surprised right off the hop. This is getting exposure maybe not a sale yet but definately interested individuals to buy for next year at some point. I appreciate the oppourtunity to show the loader and thank you. Chad for not just saying no way it will stand up so no point. Next year at some point we will have a more. Comparable machine with the 906 

Without high lift and with a bigger roc. When that machine gets here i hope chad will be willing to do another day maybe a bit better planned not just spur of the moment.


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## Bigfoot Brent

Just watched the loader video, haven't been on here for a week, been busy. In the video the BVR machine sounds like it has air brakes, am I right?. Air brakes seem to work in trucks and trains, but in my experience they can be a PITA in a machine when you only need to move an inch or two. I also wonder about the fuel consumption considering how much it smoked.


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## Triple L

So today I was going to pick up a part for my truck when I realized I just drove past the BVR shop... Made a quick U turn and stopped in to check out the mini skids... Got to try one out and to be honest, I was actually very impressed! Just about every part I could buy from princess auto if anything ever broke, the price is right at $11,000 and its engineered well and dosent even have any chinese writing on the guages and has a good fit and finish... 31" wide, 21HP Briggs

Overall I was glad I stopped by, For 10K in savings over a mt52 they defentially have my interest...


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## Mr.Markus

Triple L;1385394 said:


> So today I was going to pick up a part for my truck when I realized I just drove past the BVR shop... Made a quick U turn and stopped in to check out the mini skids... Got to try one out and to be honest, I was actually very impressed! Just about every part I could buy from princess auto if anything ever broke, the price is right at $11,000 and its engineered well and dosent even have any chinese writing on the guages and has a good fit and finish... 31" wide, 21HP Briggs
> 
> Overall I was glad I stopped by, For 10K in savings over a mt52 they defentially have my interest...


Needs a platform to stand on and give you 130lbs more ballast....or me 245lbs


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## CGM Inc.

Do these machines need any approvals like CSA to comply with locat safety standards?
Or do they have that already?


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## Triple L

Mr.Markus;1385399 said:


> Needs a platform to stand on and give you 130lbs more ballast....or me 245lbs


They have that, this one was still on the crate when they took it off and didnt have it put on yet... haha it'd give me another 200lbs of ballast... And it dosent have the stupid tail wheel like an mt52 which does nothing but screw things up...


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## DeVries

By looking at it the MT is a far superior machine. That thing the rad, engine and just about everything else is exposed. The MT is built like a tank and looks like it would lift more as well.


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## R.G.PEEL

How much is it new? An MT is only 18-20 to begin with. I think I'd still take the MT for two reasons. 1)diesel over gas. 2)protected components

Also, scenic, I don't want to slam without understanding because im only going off the pic but with that style of track vs A frame with a smaller drive sprocket doesn't it have less torque to the ground? Looks like it would be a consideration, especially at 8 grand, but only from looking, I have to say the bobcat would be tough to beat....

Tom, take your mt down and do a comp vid for us.


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## ScnicExcellence

The machine has enough torque at the tracks to push through anything it is going to be put into. The mt52 is a bigger machine. 5 inches wider. About 600 lbs more weight. dump height is within 1/2 inch. our reach at highest point is 21 inches mt52 is 18 inches. Height of machine is about the same within one inch. 49 to 50 inches. mt52 is 93 inches long ours is 86 inches long. our speed is 3.4 mph and mt52 is 3.5 mph. 

They are comparable a bit, the bobcat is a bigger machine. when you go up to our next model the 38t it is 44 inches wide and alot more comparable

When you are looking at a 31.5 " machines though for the price it cannot be beat. It can fit through doorways and gates without problems, i would say the mt52 would have more problems fitting where this machine will. 

When going to a small machine you can sacrifice a bit to get into a tighter spot. if that machine goes pretty much only the places a 44inch machine will go for the mt52 then you are better off with the 44.5" machine from us. when you go to one job though and cannot get in and have to pay so much more for the workers to do the digging and wheel barrow work, you will kick yourself for it in the end.

As far as the mt52 being built like a tank, What are you doing with these machines that you need to worry about the rad showing a bit on the side of the machine that is %50 covered by the arms when they are down. If you don't like the parts being exposed like that, those things are an easy fix. Putting a crate like object made for the machine over that area would solve the problem of the parts being exposed. 

Still haven't decided which one to take to congress with us. the bigger one or this one.


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## R.G.PEEL

Forget that, we're asking. Every question I ask and you answer drives up traffic. Traffic makes plowsite attractive to advertisers. You're nor saying "buy my product" you're answering questions we ask.


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## DeVries

What booth will you be in at congress?


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## ScnicExcellence

Dont think it is a good idea to say that on the thread. May get in trouble.

Im sure you can look it up on l/o site.


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## Superior L & L

I admit i dont know anything about these types of machines but if you shortened the loader arm bringing the load closer to the machine and put a couple of sizes bigger tire on it that would be a decent entry level machine, if there was some form of parts network available


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## CAT 245ME

ScnicExcellence;1380835 said:


> Hey that feeling that you have for john deere, is that a good feeling that you have for India, as that is where their tractors up to 75 hp are made, good old INDIA the last time i checked India was not north America. (this is something you have to do some digging for the info but it is out there.)


Back in late July the company I work for got me a new Cat 972H and right below the serial number it read "Made In Japan". I thought I was gonna be sick. Loader has about the same road speed as TripleL's 906H but that's the only thing the two loaders have in common.

But when it comes to service it's tough to beat Caterpillar.


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## ScnicExcellence

Superior L & L;1386636 said:


> I admit i dont know anything about these types of machines but if you shortened the loader arm bringing the load closer to the machine and put a couple of sizes bigger tire on it that would be a decent entry level machine, if there was some form of parts network available


You are right about the arms, that machine has high lift on it. Thus lowering the lift capacity. Next year sometime we will have a regular lift arm model in stock to bring down and test again.


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## alsam116

is this just a sample or is this in actual prodution already.pretty nice size machine for $30g cant even get a backhoe for that. i hope this did not sound that stupid...


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## ScnicExcellence

Not stupid. These are in production, but as production goes we change the things that we can to make it better, for example the torque converters are being removed an replaced by hydrostatic instead.


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## ScnicExcellence

Hey everyone i have 6 free passes left to Landscape Ontario Congress show. Come to my shop and pick them up, 2 per person. Pm me if interested.


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## ScnicExcellence

Anyone have a mini excavatir they care to demo against mine? I wanna see how she stands up. I got one with a breaker and quick hitch with three different sized buckets to test aginst anybody that has a similar machine. 

Similar machines are like the kubota u17 and yanmar vio 17 or any other machine you think is close for it to compare to. 

Let me know if anybody is interested. I dont think this will happen untilthe spring but still would lile to set it up.


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## cutshortlandscaping

How's the Chinese loader holding up 4 years later


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## NickSnow&Mow

cutshortlandscaping said:


> How's the Chinese loader holding up 4 years later


He doesn't own the china loader.


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## Defcon 5

NickSnow&Mow said:


> He doesn't own the china loader.


Ethiopia Loader?????


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Ethiopia Loader?????


Too skinny to work.


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