# Still haven't been paid from Dec 19th Storm!!!



## sailscall01 (Oct 19, 2005)

Anyone else still waiting on getting paid from the December North East Storms?? I've been subbing for a guy for the past 3 years. He never seems to have our full checks.. Always has an excuse of some sort that the place that pays him is holding his money. We usually wait 30 days to get paid.. Which I can understand. We were told 45 days from the beginning of the snow season that we would be paid.. Ok, show me the money payup.. Now I am hearing that "we hope to be writing some checks by the end of this week".. Its been 60+ days so far and counting.. Not to mention that we had 2 back to back blizzards within a week and no $$ yet for those storms.. :realmad: 

How do you get paid as subs?? At the end of each storm?? 30 day terms/45 day terms??


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Looks he maybe paying himself first Time to rebill them.


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## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

I setup as I will pay all of my guys within 40 days. 90% of the time though it is within a week or two of the event. 

P.S. I don't have many guys


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## sailscall01 (Oct 19, 2005)

There is possibly a Thursday storm heading our way.. Might be rain, but would you still plow/salt for this guy if it does snow?? He is holding 3 storm checks.. Do I feel a cold/fever coming on??


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## digit (Sep 15, 2005)

I pay my guys every two weeks. If it snows alot I will pay them every week they are on payroll for snow only not subs. I have always felt it is the contractors responsibilty to pay the help regardless if he got paid or not.


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

One of my biggest accounts I have been servicing for 18 years, has only paid me for November. Still waiting for December, January and soon will be billing for Feb. I'm taking a gamble at this point, relying on the fact they have always come through in the past, but they know my patients is wearing thin. 

It's a reflection of just how bad things are across the board. I think you have to really weigh things out now, more than ever, before you pull the trigger. This should get interesting...


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## Wieckster (Jan 9, 2008)

I would plow it right up to his front door of his house then maybe he will get the picture and pay you,or at least he wouldnt beable to get out LOL


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

We pay close to 100 people (sometimes over 100 guys) after plowing events and they are paid in 10 business days! Yes they are paid in full within 10 business days! Some are employees most are subs, but all get paid!


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## CMerLand (May 2, 2000)

Its all about cash flow and sometimes its tight. I'm working from the other side of the equation, in that I have subs that are expecting to get paid. I'm always straight with them and tell them I will pay you what I have, when I have it. We were slow to bill out our Dec storms due to the holidays and a death in the family, but as that money has come in, I've paid off all my guys from that storm.

Now the back to back storms in February, are hugely taxing on cash flow, because the money to cover the materials/repairs/fuel/expenses of those storms is coming from the cash flow of the December storm. And now those storms are just billed out (no office staff here) I wont get paid from most for 20+ days.

It comes down to integrity and my guys know I'm good for the money. A few guys say, give it to me when you can, which helps me tremendously, and got a couple new guys that I'll get paid first, just cause they dont know me well enough to know I would never default on em. My guys know I'm very generous when I have the cash, and dont bullsh%t em when I dont. Cash flow is going to be tight for the next couple of weeks, but we'll get it done. If your feel your guy is holding out on you or not good for the money, then make the decision to stop working for him. But understand, the businesses we plow for aren't exactly rushing to cut their checks to us because they are playing the same cash flow game we are.


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

I been paid for that storm. I get paid on or aound the 12th of every month. So once every 30 days. Never had one problem. Getting ready for my big FAT check coimg up for the back to back storms.


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## creativedesigns (Sep 24, 2007)

mullis56;1009907 said:


> We pay close to 100 people (sometimes over 100 guys) after plowing events and they are paid in 10 business days! Yes they are paid in full within 10 business days! Some are employees most are subs, but all get paid!


Holly jebus! Thats alot of guys for payroll. Are your employees paid only when it snows or on a bi-weekly minimum salary?


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## KBTConst (Oct 25, 2009)

Maybe he feels if he pays you in full you will go somewheres else. So this is his way of keeping you from leaveing.


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## blaryslawn (Jan 8, 2010)

CMerLand;1009951 said:


> Its all about cash flow and sometimes its tight. I'm working from the other side of the equation, in that I have subs that are expecting to get paid. I'm always straight with them and tell them I will pay you what I have, when I have it. We were slow to bill out our Dec storms due to the holidays and a death in the family, but as that money has come in, I've paid off all my guys from that storm.
> 
> Now the back to back storms in February, are hugely taxing on cash flow, because the money to cover the materials/repairs/fuel/expenses of those storms is coming from the cash flow of the December storm. And now those storms are just billed out (no office staff here) I wont get paid from most for 20+ days.
> 
> It comes down to integrity and my guys know I'm good for the money. A few guys say, give it to me when you can, which helps me tremendously, and got a couple new guys that I'll get paid first, just cause they dont know me well enough to know I would never default on em. My guys know I'm very generous when I have the cash, and dont bullsh%t em when I dont. Cash flow is going to be tight for the next couple of weeks, but we'll get it done. If your feel your guy is holding out on you or not good for the money, then make the decision to stop working for him. But understand, the businesses we plow for aren't exactly rushing to cut their checks to us because they are playing the same cash flow game we are.


I'd have to agree.... It really depends on how well you know and how much you trust the guy you are subbing for. Its rediculous the amount of money I had to shell out to cover the mere costs of salt, ice melt, equipment repairs, temporary labor, fuel, etc... money runs tight for a while when you have gone through four storms and you have not received all the money from the first one. I know I dont have a business, or checkbook for that matter, large enough to finance all of the costs of that many storms in a row along with paying all help and subs before I start getting paid by my customers.... Now if there are people begging you to come push for them, and have faster payment terms, go for it... but If the guy is good for the money and its just going to take him some time, I wouldnt slap the hand that feeds you. with the way things are these days, there are probably plenty of people out there that would be willing to take your place. JMO


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

creativedesigns;1009978 said:


> Holly jebus! Thats alot of guys for payroll. Are your employees paid only when it snows or on a bi-weekly minimum salary?


Weekly for employees, 7-10 business days from event end date for subs. Most of payments are to subs, but most all of ur subs love us!

When it doesn't snow employees wash trucks, take deliveries of bulk salt, clean up shop, move ice melt to various staging areas in the cities, many other things t prepare for next event, etc, then if we run out of work, they out of work. ALL SNOW WORK is paid at 1.5 normal payroll rates however so they keep smiles on their faces.

Yeah anyone wanting to talk about cash flow, well try being in my shoes....


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## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

The company I sub for treats me pretty dang good (just made me a site supervisor ...) They usually pay with in 2 weeks but sometimes it's 30 days. That's not bad, I am still waiting on some of my hay customers to pay me from 1st cutting last year!!!
Robert


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## snow man 0311 (Nov 15, 2009)

I m waiting on this ***** of a new customer said the checks in the mail didn't like the way we plow so screw him ..If he doesn't pay I can deliver snow just as fast as I move it .Ill plow him in ...


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

I'm still waiting to be paid from this same exact storm when we got it here. See my avatar.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

I have one account from that storm that is due. If the contractor is a big snow outfit out of philly, then don't hold your breath. Who is it? PM me if you don't want to post it.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

CMerLand;1009951 said:


> Its all about cash flow and sometimes its tight. I'm working from the other side of the equation, in that I have subs that are expecting to get paid. I'm always straight with them and tell them I will pay you what I have, when I have it. We were slow to bill out our Dec storms due to the holidays and a death in the family, but as that money has come in, I've paid off all my guys from that storm.
> 
> Now the back to back storms in February, are hugely taxing on cash flow, because the money to cover the materials/repairs/fuel/expenses of those storms is coming from the cash flow of the December storm. And now those storms are just billed out (no office staff here) I wont get paid from most for 20+ days.
> 
> It comes down to integrity and my guys know I'm good for the money. A few guys say, give it to me when you can, which helps me tremendously, and got a couple new guys that I'll get paid first, just cause they dont know me well enough to know I would never default on em. My guys know I'm very generous when I have the cash, and dont bullsh%t em when I dont. Cash flow is going to be tight for the next couple of weeks, but we'll get it done. If your feel your guy is holding out on you or not good for the money, then make the decision to stop working for him. But understand, the businesses we plow for aren't exactly rushing to cut their checks to us because they are playing the same cash flow game we are.


Same here. It's all about cash flow. I've tried to keep everyone paid up this year, but I've also tried to stop using credit this year as well, so everything is getting paid, including salt, repairs, fuel, before I get paid from clients.

Yesterday I got my last check from the seasonals for December, so 2009 is off of the books now.

I DO have quite a few that owe me for January, which my seasonals are billed on the first of that month, meaning they've had the invoices some 50 days now.


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## SnowGuy (Jan 7, 2006)

In my opinion, drop him. If you are not paid within 2 weeks after an event, the guy does not have the proper funds to be in the snow removal business. Takes money to make money. You should not have to finance his operations.


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## Derrick in NJ (Dec 21, 2004)

I JUST got my check from the December snow event. The outfit I plowed for got invoiced 3 days after the storm from me too. He used to be quick pay (been plowing for him for 7 years), but the last 2 years he's been reeeeaaaaalllll slow to pay. Needless to say, I didn't plow for him for out back to back blizzards, instead, I went to work for another outfit who I've worked with in the past, and the owner hand delivered my check to my door a week after I invoiced him, AND thanked me for the good work! He's also paying me a nice amount more to make sure he keeps me around


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

You have to just keep on them. Tell them you do a good job and need to get paid. One of my clients just finally paid for Dec and Jan. I had to call him a few times. That's how it's been the last few years with that client. But they always pay eventually.


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## CMerLand (May 2, 2000)

I think this thread has gotten two very different conversations mixed in to it. The original thread was a guy who plowed as a sub for another company, not someone plowing his own accounts. Its not that hes waiting on the properties that he plowed to pay him, he's waiting on the guy he plowed for to pay him.

As in my original post on the topic its all a matter of cash flow. If you dont think the guy is good for the money then dont plow for him. If hes in a money pinch as a number of back to back storms can do to an operation, then maybe consider that may be the issue, not that hes not trying to pay you.

As for snowguy, perhaps you havent read a paper in the past year or so, but credit has tightened up out there more then a catholic virgin at the prom. Our business line of credit was cut in half, several of my personal cards had their credit limits dropped as well. Vendors also lowered credit limits and some outright stopped financing and went to COD on purchases. Had nothing to do with our payment history, but the liabilty to the banks and vendors for potential credit to spend. If you have the capacity to finance all your companies expenses out of existing funds, congratulations your doing well. But if the best you have to offer is "Takes money to make money" just shut up until your on this side of meeting a $ 10,000 payroll, when you have over $ 60,000 in outstanding invoices waiting for your customers to pay, and another storm in the forecast which is going to eat into the cash you had in the bank to make that payroll.


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## fordboy (Nov 24, 2005)

to the original op, you stated yo agreed to 45 days at the begining of the season and he usually pays you in 30. So in the past he has fulfilled your agreement. Now this time he is late by 15 days(you stated you are 60 days out) I would say you need to talk to him and find out why and if he is a stand up guy he will evel with you and atleast give you a good reason or pay you what he can right now. I am also as sub have very similar terms as you, but next year I will be renegotiating the terms or finding someone else to plow for. I wil say my current contractor is currently squared up with me which is a rarity usually this time of year he is into me for about 3-4g. I hope all works out for ya and i would simply tell him yo atleast need the cash that covers your expenses, such as fuel insurance etc.


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

CMerLand;1010590 said:


> As for snowguy, perhaps you havent read a paper in the past year or so, but credit has tightened up out there more then a catholic virgin at the prom. Our business line of credit was cut in half, several of my personal cards had their credit limits dropped as well. Vendors also lowered credit limits and some outright stopped financing and went to COD on purchases. Had nothing to do with our payment history, but the liabilty to the banks and vendors for potential credit to spend. If you have the capacity to finance all your companies expenses out of existing funds, congratulations your doing well. But if the best you have to offer is "Takes money to make money" just shut up until your on this side of meeting a $ 10,000 payroll, when you have over $ 60,000 in outstanding invoices waiting for your customers to pay, and another storm in the forecast which is going to eat into the cash you had in the bank to make that payroll.


All that is the Companys problem not the Subs. I am a Sub and always get paid with in the terms we agreed too. It does take money to make money.

With me being a Sub i don't care how broke you are or about your credit limits. I just want my money when you said you were going to give it to me. If you cant handle being a big time snow removal contractor then maybe you need to be subbing your self then.

Being the main contractor you make the most money but also have the most risk. I understand all that. But to make money you have to take risks. Just pay your subs in the time frame you agreed to. I don't care how you get the money re-fiance your house if you have too. Just give me my money.:redbounce


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## CMerLand (May 2, 2000)

Mackman;1010617 said:


> I don't care how you get the money re-fiance your house if you have too. Just give me my money.:redbounce


Exactly my point, unlike 5 years ago when anyone with a pulse could re-finance a house, there are far fewer or no additional options for obtaining additional credit. The volume and frequency of snow we've received far exceeds a typical NJ winter, as do the expenses of handling those storms. You can jump up and down:yow!:, scream and moan that you want your money and you want it now, quit and go work for someone else. By all means leave because your just as easily replaced by someone else.

But by the time your done *****ing and moaning, whining and crying, and threating to sue, I'll have your money, pay you off, and tell you good riddance and good luck. Just how sure are you that the next guy you plow for is in any better situation to pay you any faster?

My post was not to make this about my company specifically. All my guys will be paid off on time for sure. My point was to explain the otherside of the coin, and maybe keep the original guy from burning a bridge needlessly.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Mackman;1010617 said:


> All that is the Companys problem not the Subs. I am a Sub and always get paid with in the terms we agreed too. It does take money to make money.
> 
> With me being a Sub i don't care how broke you are or about your credit limits. I just want my money when you said you were going to give it to me. If you cant handle being a big time snow removal contractor then maybe you need to be subbing your self then.
> 
> Being the main contractor you make the most money but also have the most risk. I understand all that. But to make money you have to take risks. Just pay your subs in the time frame you agreed to. I don't care how you get the money re-fiance your house if you have too. Just give me my money.:redbounce


Listen, as a guy that has subs working for me, if I don't get paid, you're not going to get paid, it's that simple.

All of my guys know that I pay out as the money comes in. I'm not going to refinance my house and pay out $2000-4000 in closing costs so I can come up with $1500 to pay subs for a storm.

Hopefully you're exaggerating a bit, because if you were one of my subs and talked to me like that, you wouldn't be one.


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

LwnmwrMan22;1011405 said:


> Listen, as a guy that has subs working for me, if I don't get paid, you're not going to get paid, it's that simple.
> 
> All of my guys know that I pay out as the money comes in. I'm not going to refinance my house and pay out $2000-4000 in closing costs so I can come up with $1500 to pay subs for a storm.
> 
> Hopefully you're exaggerating a bit, because if you were one of my subs and talked to me like that, you wouldn't be one.


That is why i would never be a sub for you.... So there will never be any problems.

I will wait 30days for my money. That is about the MAX. If i wanted to wait forever for it i should just go bid the job myself. I feel that if a company cant pay all of their help before they get paid they shouldnt be the main contractor on the job.

I work for a good size excavating company. We do alot of paving and dirt work. Every 30days the bills roll in from the blacktop plant and quarry. Up to 100,000. They want their money. They don't want to hear BS about you not getting paid. Samething with Subs. If you anit got the bankroll then don't take on the job.


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## CMerLand (May 2, 2000)

Mackman;1011412 said:


> That is why i would never be a sub for you.... So there will never be any problems.
> 
> Agreed. Won't ever be a problem.
> 
> ...


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Mackman;1011412 said:


> That is why i would never be a sub for you.... So there will never be any problems.
> 
> I will wait 30days for my money. That is about the MAX. If i wanted to wait forever for it i should just go bid the job myself. I feel that if a company cant pay all of their help before they get paid they shouldnt be the main contractor on the job.
> 
> I work for a good size excavating company. We do alot of paving and dirt work. Every 30days the bills roll in from the blacktop plant and quarry. Up to 100,000. They want their money. They don't want to hear BS about you not getting paid. Samething with Subs. If you anit got the bankroll then don't take on the job.


This is where you don't get it. Of course the blacktop plant gets their money. If you don't pay the blacktop plant, you don't get blacktop. If you don't get blacktop, you can't do your work. If you can't do the work, how are you going to pay people?

I have more to say, but this thread will get locked, so I'm backing out.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Keep your books up to date, charge interest after 30 days/60 days/90 days etc. I always say if you can't afford to have them stiff you you shouldn't be working for them. You'd be surprised how quickly they call you when they realise that not paying on time cost more. I agree with Mackman, I wouldn't sub for a business who cries that they haven't been paid and stiffs me for the work (that i did on their behalf).That would mean I'm assuming all their risk. Assume the risk you took on. A lot of companies sub because they don't want the headache of huge equipment payroll and workers comp. That sub should be invoicing as a business with payment terms,interest/penalties,stand by time and the like. If your not... step it up.


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## MrBillsLawn (Nov 15, 2005)

It goes both ways depending on the size of the company that you sub for. Back in the day when I first started plowing I work for different companies that did it both ways. The company that had been plowing snow for 20 years and had all the big "cushy" accounts paid right away. The smaller company that stepped out on a limb and landed some bigger accounts payed within 40 days....after they got paid. 

The way things are right now it is very risky to let that balance continue to grow. If a company gets out a little too far, they are not able to get a small loan to float any unexpected costs like you used to be able to. If you run out of cash....you are done. 

Two years ago I subbed for a guy that gave me a great speech of how great things were. I went all winter without getting paid. The snow kept coming and I kept adding up the hours and salt. Needless to say, he still owes me $11,000, has lied in court, and hides everything that you can think of. If you have been dealing with the guy for a while and you both trust each other, have him personally guarantee the amount. That way if you have to you can go after his personal bank account.....his wife's car.....his house...... something before things start disappearing. Also, I would give him an end date. "I really need to get paid by March 10th, or I will have to take you to court." That may tighten the screws a little bit. It is very easy to just not pay someone, and open a new business to avoid the payment. It is starting to be a sad world that we live in now....but you would rather be safe then sorry.

Whatever you do, don't blow your top. You are both professionals. Although things are tight now, you both maybe able to establish a very strong and well paying relationship, if you work together and communicate.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

MrBillsLawn;1011744 said:


> It goes both ways depending on the size of the company that you sub for. Back in the day when I first started plowing I work for different companies that did it both ways. The company that had been plowing snow for 20 years and had all the big "cushy" accounts paid right away. The smaller company that stepped out on a limb and landed some bigger accounts payed within 40 days....after they got paid.
> 
> The way things are right now it is very risky to let that balance continue to grow. If a company gets out a little too far, they are not able to get a small loan to float any unexpected costs like you used to be able to. If you run out of cash....you are done.
> 
> ...


i once knew a homebuilder that would hire small companies and run up huge bills with them, then not pay them and wait for them to go out of buisness!!! some people/buisnesses don't realize that they are messing with peoples lives when they do [email protected] like this. Someday he is going to do it to the wrong/mentally unstable person and find himself/family/friends/etc in big trouble when someone snaps


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

I'm not trying to get people all worked up I'm just saying how i feel. If your Subs agree to them type of terms then there is no problem. But if you say you will pay them in 30-45 days etc. Then you better be a man of your word and pay them.

The world doesn't work on -* You get paid when i get paid type of terms*. You tell your bank that when they want their money for your house. You call up Ford or Chevy and say you cant get your payment intill i get paid. No you don't. So why do it to your subs.

You talk about of course the black-top plant gets paid cuz you need black-top. I guess you don't need your subs when it snows???

The comment about me not knowing how to run a business cracks me up. I had my fare share of running a business and doing all the paper work and book keeping. My dad has been in the trucking business for over 35 years. I have to do all his book keeping and deal with the DOT, IFTA and pay all the bills. He is very old school and doesn't know how to turn on a PC that's why i get stuck with the job. BTW when his bills come in i never heard him say. Don't pay that bill cuz i didn't get paid yet???


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

CMerLand;1011544 said:


> seem to have all the answers for those of us who've been in business for 20 plus years.


So you been in business for 20+ years. If you don't have enough money to pay your subs or payroll then there is a problem. Its not like you just started a year or 2 ago.

Just like when diesel hit 5.00/gal. A year or 2 ago. Guys were losing their trucks and going out of the trucking business left and right. But the ones that were in business for a long time had the money to weather the storm.

Like i said I'm just talking I'm not sending this out as personal attacks so don't take it as such. I like a good debate.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

I too like a good debate.

I'm on the blackberry so I apologize for any and all spelling and gramar errors in advance.

Here's my situation this year.

The first snowstorm of the year, one of the drivers rolls a truck. No biggie, I have insurance, right?

Well, it's $500 out of my pocket, plus 3 more storms of paying $60 per hour for a sub instead of $30 per hour for my own truck and driver.

I've gone through 9 pallets of ice melt this year. I use 1-2 pallets at the very most for the last 15 years. I'm doing my best to work my way out of debt, so instead of putting this all on credit and digging a bigger hole, I was assuming I would get paid for services rendered.

I was wrong.

I've had 2 businesses close this winter, and 4 others that are usually net 10-15, have apparently gone to net 60 with no phone calls returned to find out for sure.

My point is, talk with the guy. If he seems sincere, there's a good chance he is.

If he acts like he's going to screw you, he probably is.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

Anybody else having problems with Brickman paying? It's getting close to 3 months since I plowed this storm and I'm told that it's because Brickman is holding things up....


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

We havnt been paid by a few companies... the rest have been pretty good. The problematic ones from the start with that storm are the ones that had/have and will always have the issues with late payments.


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## jimspro (Oct 9, 2009)

I've been subbing for one company for over 25 years, and always get paid within 30 days, just hooked up with another company as a sub and got paid within 2 weeks of the storm, but as others said, cash flow is everything, if you have always got paid from them, but slowly, it is still better than nothing, i would call them and ask for some pay so you can make your insurance payment, maybe that will help


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## Evan1968 (Jan 23, 2009)

IMO if your a sub, and the GC is waiting to pay you until he gets paid....that makes you a partner with him with no benefits of sharing in the profits. You have become the bank for him. I have my own commercial tile installation business in the summer and run into this situation alot. I have to pay my suppliers,help,ins...blah,blah,blah. That bill on some jobs runs into 15k-30k range. If someone wants to be a GC and reap the benefits of being one, then they need to also understand the responsibilities that come with it. Just my 2 cents.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Evan1968;1020802 said:


> IMO if your a sub, and the GC is waiting to pay you until he gets paid....that makes you a partner with him with no benefits of sharing in the profits. You have become the bank for him. I have my own commercial tile installation business in the summer and run into this situation alot. I have to pay my suppliers,help,ins...blah,blah,blah. That bill on some jobs runs into 15k-30k range. If someone wants to be a GC and reap the benefits of being one, then they need to also understand the responsibilities that come with it. Just my 2 cents.


just wondering, what your aggreement is with the GC prior to the work being completed?

I know aot of times with construction, (i have worked as a GC) payment is no held for cash flow pruposes, its held becasue there are inspections that the property owner has to do, to sign off that he is ha[ppy with your work. they just dont come down to the site every day and do these inspections. Its normally done when they have 10-15 items or more completed at once, Or after the occupancy permit is given, and the "substational completetion" inspection is completed by the owner.

snows a little different animal, but from a gc stand point i wouldnt pay until the work was excepted by the owner.


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## Evan1968 (Jan 23, 2009)

On avg my contract states i get a 1/3 payment minus 10% for retention from the GC when work has started. At the completion of the job i get the other 2/3's minus retention. The 10% retention is paid at the time of sign off by the client. The 1/3 down might pay for some material and maybe a week or 2 of labor.

The "waiting for the money" comes into play when the store has been open for a month doing business and im still waiting for my 2/3's and retention to be paid ! Thats when the GC should step up and pay his subs and wait to get paid by the client. The point im trying to make is that if the job has been completed by the sub with no issues, why shouldnt he be paid for his work? The "I'm waiting to be paid by the client" rhetoric from the GC does not fly in my book.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Evan1968;1020802 said:


> IMO if your a sub, and the GC is waiting to pay you until he gets paid....that makes you a partner with him with no benefits of sharing in the profits. You have become the bank for him. I have my own commercial tile installation business in the summer and run into this situation alot. I have to pay my suppliers,help,ins...blah,blah,blah. That bill on some jobs runs into 15k-30k range. If someone wants to be a GC and reap the benefits of being one, then they need to also understand the responsibilities that come with it. Just my 2 cents.


Now we have $.04.If I ever sub for anyone which is extremely rare these days whether for plowing or excavating,I will tell them right up front that I will not wait for payment just because they haven't got paid from the client.I probably have lost a few gigs over the years because of my stance but my stomach gets all in knots when I have to worry when or if I'm going to get paid and I hate that feeling.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

elite1msmith;1020886 said:


> snows a little different animal, but from a gc stand point i wouldnt pay until the work was excepted by the owner.


Snow is definitely a different animal if you're waiting 15-30-60 days for an inspection, because mother nature will slap another... who knows.... how many sheets of drywall over your work....


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

snow man 0311;1010110 said:


> I m waiting on this ***** of a new customer said the checks in the mail didn't like the way we plow so screw him ..If he doesn't pay I can deliver snow just as fast as I move it .Ill plow him in ...


We are all supposed professionals and if you go mess with private property you will wind up in court for sure!! I install concrete drives and we put a big one in. we were supposed to be paid upon completion. Homeowner was mysteriously not around when we finished. to make a long story short they didnt pay and me!! I thought hell its my concrete i am going to take it out.. wound up in court and had to pay them to replace itand still never got paid from them!!


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## Snow Picasso (Dec 15, 2004)

sailscall01;1009879 said:


> Anyone else still waiting on getting paid from the December North East Storms?? I've been subbing for a guy for the past 3 years. He never seems to have our full checks.. Always has an excuse of some sort that the place that pays him is holding his money. We usually wait 30 days to get paid.. Which I can understand. We were told 45 days from the beginning of the snow season that we would be paid.. Ok, show me the money payup.. Now I am hearing that "we hope to be writing some checks by the end of this week".. Its been 60+ days so far and counting.. Not to mention that we had 2 back to back blizzards within a week and no $$ yet for those storms.. :realmad:
> 
> How do you get paid as subs?? At the end of each storm?? 30 day terms/45 day terms??


This seems to be the story for a lot of contractores this year! It's March 5th and I'm still waiting on December money! All of my guys get paid within 2 weeks ( usually 10 days ) all of my bills get paid when I receive them! It's not fun being the last one to see money, but your only as good as your word! If my guys don't get paid they won't work with me again. If my salt guy doesn't get paid I won't get my material when I need it! If you start charging interest on your accounts that are past due and get pissy with them you won't get your money and you will lose the account next year! If it's a new account with no history...file a lien and get out! If it's a existing account with some history I say cut them some slack! As long as there is communication I believe we'll get paid! Plus, it will show them what kind of people we are! You would hope this goes a long way when it's time to renew our contracts!


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

maxximus98;1020972 said:


> We are all supposed professionals and if you go mess with private property you will wind up in court for sure!! I install concrete drives and we put a big one in. we were supposed to be paid upon completion. Homeowner was mysteriously not around when we finished. to make a long story short they didnt pay and me!! I thought hell its my concrete i am going to take it out.. wound up in court and had to pay them to replace itand still never got paid from them!!


There has to be some more to this story--something doesn't quite sound right.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

tuney443;1020984 said:


> There has to be some more to this story--something doesn't quite sound right.


nope this is true, no mater what if you "install" something on the property , tree, plant, grass, concrete, windows, wires pipes, roofs, doesnt matter, it becomes part of that property and even if they dotn pay you to install it, at that point it is considered their property, and removing it is theift.

what you can due how ever is file a property lein against the property, sue them in court, get a judgment, garnish wadges, even if they dont pay, the court will give you actually a good amount of interest once the judgement has been given.

you can also file for leift of service with the police dept. and in some cases thats an arrest.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

elite1msmith;1020994 said:


> nope this is true, no mater what if you "install" something on the property , tree, plant, grass, concrete, windows, wires pipes, roofs, doesnt matter, it becomes part of that property and even if they dotn pay you to install it, at that point it is considered their property, and removing it is theift.
> 
> what you can due how ever is file a property lein against the property, sue them in court, get a judgment, garnish wadges, even if they dont pay, the court will give you actually a good amount of interest once the judgement has been given.
> 
> you can also file for leift of service with the police dept. and in some cases thats an arrest.


Yes elite,I know all that,have had my share of Small Claims Court and Mechanic Liens in the last 36 years in the excavating biz,but he said he never got paid at all,so there just has to be more story out there.Every area is different of course but just a month ago a friend of mine wasn't getting paid for snaking a sewer pipe until he called up our Sherriff's Dep't to threaten his client for theft of services.The client was told point blank--either pay up or give me your hands to try out these cuffs.My friend said he never saw anyone write out a check that fast.


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

tuney443;1020984 said:


> There has to be some more to this story--something doesn't quite sound right.


The story is as stated I was dumb founded when it happened!! I was able to lien the property but that has no effect until they sell. which they have no intention of doing! I actually laughed at the judge when he gave his judgment!! He said do you want to go to jail for contempt?? I quietly left with my tail between my legs!! The lady actually had the balls to tell my wife / secretary she was a b**ch I almost ripped her head off in the court house!! If some one does something that hinders a company from operation you can also be held responsible for their lost revenue for the time the business is not able to operate!!


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

maxximus98;1021014 said:


> The story is as stated I was dumb founded when it happened!! I was able to lien the property but that has no effect until they sell. which they have no intention of doing! I actually laughed at the judge when he gave his judgment!! He said do you want to go to jail for contempt?? I quietly left with my tail between my legs!! The lady actually had the balls to tell my wife / secretary she was a b**ch I almost ripped her head off in the court house!! If some one does something that hinders a company from operation you can also be held responsible for their lost revenue for the time the business is not able to operate!!


there is a bright side to this, you lein the property, every year you adjust the lein with the amount of interest that is owed, 10-15-20 years from now that can really add up, also they well have problems getting second mortgages etc. i know a window installer that did a place and had to lien it, and did this, (cost him $50 a year for the adjustment) 12 years latter the old couple died, and the lien was paid out, 3 times the original amount!!!


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

Snow Picasso;1020973 said:


> This seems to be the story for a lot of contractores this year! It's March 5th and I'm still waiting on December money! All of my guys get paid within 2 weeks ( usually 10 days ) all of my bills get paid when I receive them! It's not fun being the last one to see money, but your only as good as your word! If my guys don't get paid they won't work with me again. If my salt guy doesn't get paid I won't get my material when I need it! If you start charging interest on your accounts that are past due and get pissy with them you won't get your money and you will lose the account next year! If it's a new account with no history...file a lien and get out! If it's a existing account with some history I say cut them some slack! As long as there is communication I believe we'll get paid! Plus, it will show them what kind of people we are! You would hope this goes a long way when it's time to renew our contracts!


I don't know what cops are like in new york but in Chicago these are all personal claims!! Any cop around here would say it is a civil matter and you need to call a lawyer!! I don't believe your story to be true!! Simply because any thing you agree to a contract to is not handled by the police. I wouldn't pay to have a business lawyer on salary If this was the case, your clients would be able to have you arrested if you did a crappy job on a lot. It is a civil matter and I would love to have a cop threaten to arrest me for a civil matter it would be a lawsuit against the city!!


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

tuney443;1021007 said:


> Yes elite,I know all that,have had my share of Small Claims Court and Mechanic Liens in the last 36 years in the excavating biz,but he said he never got paid at all,so there just has to be more story out there.Every area is different of course but just a month ago a friend of mine wasn't getting paid for snaking a sewer pipe until he called up our Sherriff's Dep't to threaten his client for theft of services.The client was told point blank--either pay up or give me your hands to try out these cuffs.My friend said he never saw anyone write out a check that fast.


I don't know what cops are like in new york but in Chicago these are all personal claims!! Any cop around here would say it is a civil matter and you need to call a lawyer!! I don't believe your story to be true!! Simply because any thing you agree to a contract to is not handled by the police. I wouldn't pay to have a business lawyer on salary If this was the case, your clients would be able to have you arrested if you did a crappy job on a lot. It is a civil matter and I would love to have a cop threaten to arrest me for a civil matter it would be a lawsuit against the city!!


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

Sorry snow picasso I quoted wrong quote!!


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

maxximus98;1021171 said:


> I don't know what cops are like in new york but in Chicago these are all personal claims!! Any cop around here would say it is a civil matter and you need to call a lawyer!! I don't believe your story to be true!! Simply because any thing you agree to a contract to is not handled by the police. I wouldn't pay to have a business lawyer on salary If this was the case, your clients would be able to have you arrested if you did a crappy job on a lot. It is a civil matter and I would love to have a cop threaten to arrest me for a civil matter it would be a lawsuit against the city!!


It is called theft of services,plain and simple.I'm not talking about a dispute of if the job was done correctly or not depending on who you ask.If the cop asks the client why he/she didn't pay and gets an answer like ''I don't have the money'',well guess what--that's no different than going to a restaurant and refusing to pay your bill.If the cop is doing his job,you will be arrested.If you don't believe me that's your perogative,but here in NY,contractors are finally getting some needed recourse without having to possibly hire lawyers and end up in court over these simple matters.


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

tuney443;1021535 said:


> It is called theft of services,plain and simple.I'm not talking about a dispute of if the job was done correctly or not depending on who you ask.If the cop asks the client why he/she didn't pay and gets an answer like ''I don't have the money'',well guess what--that's no different than going to a restaurant and refusing to pay your bill.If the cop is doing his job,you will be arrested.If you don't believe me that's your perogative,but here in NY,contractors are finally getting some needed recourse without having to possibly hire lawyers and end up in court over these simple matters.


This is completely incorrect, unless you can provide a NY state statute that allows law enforcement to arrest you for not paying a plow bill.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

tuney443;1021535 said:


> It is called theft of services,plain and simple.I'm not talking about a dispute of if the job was done correctly or not depending on who you ask.If the cop asks the client why he/she didn't pay and gets an answer like ''I don't have the money'',well guess what--that's no different than going to a restaurant and refusing to pay your bill.If the cop is doing his job,you will be arrested.If you don't believe me that's your perogative,but here in NY,contractors are finally getting some needed recourse without having to possibly hire lawyers and end up in court over these simple matters.


That works for a restaurant, because eventually you need to leave the premise, it then becomes theft.

For those of you who landscape someones house, we now have a clause in our contracts, that all materials belong to us untill full payment is made. If they do not pay we have the right to get our products back. It still sucks, and the lien is the way to go, but there are a few occassions where this has come in handy.


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

who r u working for I had bad problems last year but this year was better still chasing money from last yr.
blessings RJ


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Neige;1021604 said:


> That works for a restaurant, because eventually you need to leave the premise, it then becomes theft.
> 
> For those of you who landscape someones house, we now have a clause in our contracts, that all materials belong to us untill full payment is made. If they do not pay we have the right to get our products back. It still sucks, and the lien is the way to go, but there are a few occassions where this has come in handy.


that is a great clause, i like it.


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

tuney443;1021535 said:


> It is called theft of services,plain and simple.I'm not talking about a dispute of if the job was done correctly or not depending on who you ask.If the cop asks the client why he/she didn't pay and gets an answer like ''I don't have the money'',well guess what--that's no different than going to a restaurant and refusing to pay your bill.If the cop is doing his job,you will be arrested.If you don't believe me that's your perogative,but here in NY,contractors are finally getting some needed recourse without having to possibly hire lawyers and end up in court over these simple matters.


So your saying the property owner cant say he didnt do what contract states and the cop is going to automatically take your side NO!!!!! The officer will tell you it needs to be settled in court!! Look I am not saying its not a great idea but how are you going to get say someone from USM arrested for not paying? Second do you have any actual experience with this law? Not "one of my friends said"? I am sure you can file a complaint and have a police report filed but no arrests will be made!!! The new york code is available to the public so you should be able to post this as stated in the law with no problem IF IT EXISTS!!!


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

*Here is the law as posted in new york law*
§ 165.15 Theft of services.
A person is guilty of theft of services when:
1. He obtains or attempts to obtain a service, or induces or attempts
to induce the supplier of a rendered service to agree to payment
therefor on a credit basis, by the use of a credit card or debit card
which he knows to be stolen.
2. With intent to avoid payment for restaurant services rendered, or
for services rendered to him as a transient guest at a hotel, motel,
inn, tourist cabin, rooming house or comparable establishment, he avoids
or attempts to avoid such payment by unjustifiable failure or refusal to
pay, by stealth, or by any misrepresentation of fact which he knows to
be false. A person who fails or refuses to pay for such services is
presumed to have intended to avoid payment therefor; or
3. With intent to obtain railroad, subway, bus, air, taxi or any other
public transportation service without payment of the lawful charge
therefor, or to avoid payment of the lawful charge for such
transportation service which has been rendered to him, he obtains or
attempts to obtain such service or avoids or attempts to avoid payment
therefor by force, intimidation, stealth, deception or mechanical
tampering, or by unjustifiable failure or refusal to pay; or
4. With intent to avoid payment by himself or another person of the
lawful charge for any telecommunications service, including, without
limitation, cable television service, or any gas, steam, sewer, water,
electrical, telegraph or telephone service which is provided for a
charge or compensation, he obtains or attempts to obtain such service
for himself or another person or avoids or attempts to avoid payment
therefor by himself or another person by means of (a) tampering or
making connection with the equipment of the supplier, whether by
mechanical, electrical, acoustical or other means, or (b) offering for
sale or otherwise making available, to anyone other than the provider of
a telecommunications service for such service provider's own use in the
provision of its service, any telecommunications decoder or descrambler,
a principal function of which defeats a mechanism of electronic signal
encryption, jamming or individually addressed switching imposed by the
provider of any such telecommunications service to restrict the delivery
of such service, or (c) any misrepresentation of fact which he knows to
be false, or (d) any other artifice, trick, deception, code or device.
For the purposes of this subdivision the telecommunications decoder or
descrambler described in paragraph (b) above or the device described in
paragraph (d) above shall not include any non-decoding and
non-descrambling channel frequency converter or any television receiver
type-accepted by the federal communications commission. In any
prosecution under this subdivision, proof that telecommunications
equipment, including, without limitation, any cable television
converter, descrambler, or related equipment, has been tampered with or
otherwise intentionally prevented from performing its functions of
control of service delivery without the consent of the supplier of the
service, or that telecommunications equipment, including, without
limitation, any cable television converter, descrambler, receiver, or
related equipment, has been connected to the equipment of the supplier
of the service without the consent of the supplier of the service, shall
be presumptive evidence that the resident to whom the service which is
at the time being furnished by or through such equipment has, with
intent to avoid payment by himself or another person for a prospective
or already rendered service, created or caused to be created with
reference to such equipment, the condition so existing. A person who
tampers with such a device or equipment without the consent of the
supplier of the service is presumed to do so with intent to avoid, or to
enable another to avoid, payment for the service involved. In any
prosecution under this subdivision, proof that any telecommunications
decoder or descrambler, a principal function of which defeats a
mechanism of electronic signal encryption, jamming or individually
addressed switching imposed by the provider of any such
telecommunications service to restrict the delivery of such service, has
been offered for sale or otherwise made available by anyone other than
the supplier of such service shall be presumptive evidence that the
person offering such equipment for sale or otherwise making it available
has, with intent to avoid payment by himself or another person of the
lawful charge for such service, obtained or attempted to obtain such
service for himself or another person or avoided or attempted to avoid
payment therefor by himself or another person; or
5. With intent to avoid payment by himself or another person of the
lawful charge for any telephone service which is provided for a charge
or compensation he (a) sells, offers for sale or otherwise makes
available, without consent, an existing, canceled or revoked access
device; or (b) uses, without consent, an existing, canceled or revoked
access device; or (c) knowingly obtains any telecommunications service
with fraudulent intent by use of an unauthorized, false, or fictitious
name, identification, telephone number, or access device. For purposes
of this subdivision access device means any telephone calling card
number, credit card number, account number, mobile identification
number, electronic serial number or personal identification number that
can be used to obtain telephone service.
6. With intent to avoid payment by himself or another person for a
prospective or already rendered service the charge or compensation for
which is measured by a meter or other mechanical device, he tampers with
such device or with other equipment related thereto, or in any manner
attempts to prevent the meter or device from performing its measuring
function, without the consent of the supplier of the service. In any
prosecution under this subdivision, proof that a meter or related
equipment has been tampered with or otherwise intentionally prevented
from performing its measuring function without the consent of the
supplier of the service shall be presumptive evidence that the person to
whom the service which is at the time being furnished by or through such
meter or related equipment has, with intent to avoid payment by himself
or another person for a prospective or already rendered service, created
or caused to be created with reference to such meter or related
equipment, the condition so existing. A person who tampers with such a
device or equipment without the consent of the supplier of the service
is presumed to do so with intent to avoid, or to enable another to
avoid, payment for the service involved; or
7. He knowingly accepts or receives the use and benefit of service,
including gas, steam or electricity service, which should pass through a
meter but has been diverted therefrom, or which has been prevented from
being correctly registered by a meter provided therefor, or which has
been diverted from the pipes, wires or conductors of the supplier
thereof. In any prosecution under this subdivision proof that service
has been intentionally diverted from passing through a meter, or has
been intentionally prevented from being correctly registered by a meter
provided therefor, or has been intentionally diverted from the pipes,
wires or conductors of the supplier thereof, shall be presumptive
evidence that the person who accepts or receives the use and benefit of
such service has done so with knowledge of the condition so existing; or
8. With intent to obtain, without the consent of the supplier thereof,
gas, electricity, water, steam or telephone service, he tampers with any
equipment designed to supply or to prevent the supply of such service
either to the community in general or to particular premises; or
9. With intent to avoid payment of the lawful charge for admission to
any theatre or concert hall, or with intent to avoid payment of the
lawful charge for admission to or use of a chair lift, gondola, rope-tow
or similar mechanical device utilized in assisting skiers in
transportation to a point of ski arrival or departure, he obtains or
attempts to obtain such admission without payment of the lawful charge
therefor.
10. Obtaining or having control over labor in the employ of another
person, or of business, commercial or industrial equipment or facilities
of another person, knowing that he is not entitled to the use thereof,
and with intent to derive a commercial or other substantial benefit for
himself or a third person, he uses or diverts to the use of himself or a
third person such labor, equipment or facilities.
11. With intent to avoid payment by himself or another person of the
lawful charge for use of any computer or computer service which is
provided for a charge or compensation he uses, causes to be used or
attempts to use a computer or computer service and avoids or attempts to
avoid payment therefor. In any prosecution under this subdivision proof
that a person overcame or attempted to overcome any device or coding
system a function of which is to prevent the unauthorized use of said
computer or computer service shall be presumptive evidence of an intent
to avoid payment for the computer or computer service.
Theft of services is a class A misdemeanor, provided, however, that
theft of cable television service as defined by the provisions of
paragraphs (a), (c) and (d) of subdivision four of this section, and
having a value not in excess of one hundred dollars by a person who has
not been previously convicted of theft of services under subdivision
four of this section is a violation, that theft of services under
subdivision nine of this section by a person who has not been previously
convicted of theft of services under subdivision nine of this section is
a violation and provided further, however, that theft of services of any
telephone service under paragraph (a) or (b) of subdivision five of this
section having a value in excess of one thousand dollars or by a person
who has been previously convicted within five years of theft of services
under paragraph (a) of subdivision five of this section is a class E
felony.


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## blk90s13 (Sep 1, 2005)

Dec 19 is the only storm I got paid for so far


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

You're probably not going to find this in any NY code as it's really a police matter---and we all know every cop has different interpretations of what theft of services means to him or her.I did call up my friend to verify I got his story correct and he confirmed it went down just like I said here.Here's an excerpt from an actual plowing customer who had a cop show up at his house for theft of services:
I had a guy snowplow my driveway this past Winter. I have not been able to pay him completely and their were disputes over the bills. He had an officer approach me and threaten to arrest me for 'theft of services' if I didn't pay. I told the snowplow guy I would pay him as much as I could, when I could back in January. He had already told me he would let me pay it when I could. I tried paying him $20 every week, sent him some payments and couldn't pay for a couple of weeks. Isn't theft defined as the 'willful' or intention of deceipt?
Submitted: 263 days and 2 hours ago.
Category: Criminal Law Value: $15 Status: CLOSED +Read More
Accepted Answer
These are rotten times, and I'm sorry to hear of your difficulty. A lot of people took big economic hits this year. A lot of banks and businesses failed, a record number of people have lost their homes and/or their jobs and I don't know anyone with investments or pensions funds who didn't lose around 40% of their holdings, including myself. You've got no more reason to be embarrassed by this than any of the rest of us.

My point is that sometimes you have to swallow your pride. If the contractor already knows you're filing for bankruptcy and you can demonstrate that you're making whatever efforts you possibly can to pay off as many of your creditors as you possibly can, then this information should put a new spin on things for the police. Normally, I don't advise talking to the police, but yours is a story that's not going to change whether you open your mouth or not. And it might be better to tell the officer one-on-one what's going on than to have it announced in open court in a criminal proceeding. The officer may very well feel after hearing what you have to say that this is a civil matter and not a criminal matter at all. If he's unconvinced of that, you're in no worse shape than if you'd said nothing. Except for your pride, which all things considered, is a relatively small concern.

If I've helped, please click the green Accept button so I can get credit for my work.

This thread will not close and you can always use it to get clarification.This is informational only and is NOT legal advice.

Expert: FranL
Pos. Feedback: 99.8 %
Accepts: 1364
Answered: 6/16/2009
Criminal Defense Lawyer
17+ years of NYC public defense. Extensive arraignment, hearing, trial experience.
+Read More
Related Criminal Law Questions
whar criminal charge is 273.5(A)/21?

Read more: http://www.justanswer.com/questions...way-this-past-winter-i-have-not#ixzz0hQ2ohIcO


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

There is no way to verify actual services rendered!! The home owner can say he never did anything. I had to shovel yadda yadda yadda how can a cop make a judgment it is impossible!! I really dont care but all I am saying is I would sue any cop for false imprisonment for something this bogus!! If that is the case why if you rent out a property and the renter doesnt pay. Shouldnt I be able to have that person arrested? No I would have to let that person live in my house until I get them evicted!! or all the banks would have people arrested for not paying their mortgages! It is a simple breach of contract and only settled in a court!!


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

maxximus98;1021839 said:


> There is no way to verify actual services rendered!! The home owner can say he never did anything. I had to shovel yadda yadda yadda how can a cop make a judgment it is impossible!! I really dont care but all I am saying is I would sue any cop for false imprisonment for something this bogus!! If that is the case why if you rent out a property and the renter doesnt pay. Shouldnt I be able to have that person arrested? No I would have to let that person live in my house until I get them evicted!! or all the banks would have people arrested for not paying their mortgages! It is a simple breach of contract and only settled in a court!!


Usually there is a verification method--it's called common sense.For instance,a cop is smart enough to tell the difference between a plowed driveway and a shoveled one. Also,unless a homeowner is the lowest of scumbags,he will admit to the cop having done the work,whether in his mind it was done correctly or not.Just the presence of a cop at your door is intimidating enough,this is a tool we as plowers can try and use.If you don't want to if you ever get stiffed because of your sense of rightiousness,then simply don't.If this happens to me,I'll have no qualms at all trying this plan--nothing to lose.Your examples of other things where there are specific laws regarding tenant-landlord and mortgagor-mortgagee have no relevance here.Yes,those have to be done in court.


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

tuney443;1021871 said:


> Usually there is a verification method--it's called common sense.For instance,a cop is smart enough to tell the difference between a plowed driveway and a shoveled one. Also,unless a homeowner is the lowest of scumbags,he will admit to the cop having done the work,whether in his mind it was done correctly or not.Just the presence of a cop at your door is intimidating enough,this is a tool we as plowers can try and use.If you don't want to if you ever get stiffed because of your sense of rightiousness,then simply don't.If this happens to me,I'll have no qualms at all trying this plan--nothing to lose.Your examples of other things where there are specific laws regarding tenant-landlord and mortgagor-mortgagee have no relevance here.Yes,those have to be done in court.


Oh I assumed a homeowner that is stiffing you on payment was a lowlife!! I didnt know that the people who were stiffing you were fine upstanding citizens!! I actually speak from personal experience not on hear say from some guy one time! I posted the new york law and you still cant show me how this is a law??? This all started by some one saying they were going to push snow into the doors of a business. I simply made a comment about what ACTUALLY happened to me I have the court papers to prove and was basically told I wasnt telling the truth! So if your going to make comments please have FACTS to back it up!!


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

maxximus98;1021880 said:


> Oh I assumed a homeowner that is stiffing you on payment was a lowlife!! I didnt know that the people who were stiffing you were fine upstanding citizens!! I actually speak from personal experience not on hear say from some guy one time! I posted the new york law and you still cant show me how this is a law??? This all started by some one saying they were going to push snow into the doors of a business. I simply made a comment about what ACTUALLY happened to me I have the court papers to prove and was basically told I wasnt telling the truth! So if your going to make comments please have FACTS to back it up!!


Slow down there maxximus,take a couple of qualudes or something.You're not understanding what I just said.All I was saying is that unless he is the lowest of scumbags---that already makes him a scumbag,I never said anything different.Just because my friend got paid and you didn't,don't be so damn bitter here.I'm on your side remember,we are both plowing contractors just talking here,hopefully to gain knowledge and to learn from our mistakes.The piece you posted is not relevant at all as it doesn't say squat about what the police can or can't do----or--what they can get away with.I did show you a clip though of what I was talking about just to prove my point and as you can see,there indeed was a cop who went to that customer's home.And for the record I never said you were'nt telling the truth,just that there had to be more to the story.


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## maxximus98 (Nov 30, 2009)

OK what ever I dont have time to argue with you about it. I hope your new york cops can help you but it would be hard pressed to get a Chicago cop to respond to this! I just simply wonder what the jail term is maybe life?? I don't really need justification who sits on here just to argue with someone who as i have seen has a history of arguing with people just to feel like more of a plow know it all!!


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

maxximus98;1021926 said:


> OK what ever I dont have time to argue with you about it. I hope your new york cops can help you but it would be hard pressed to get a Chicago cop to respond to this! I just simply wonder what the jail term is maybe life?? I don't really need justification who sits on here just to argue with someone who as i have seen has a history of arguing with people just to feel like more of a plow know it all!!


I take exception to your last statement,that was really not called for at all and completely not true.A plow know it all ? Don't quite know exactly what that means but no,I certainly am not above asking for help when needed.B+B would attest to that.Plenty of PM's.


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## Indy (Sep 23, 2007)

sailscall01;1009879 said:


> Anyone else still waiting on getting paid from the December North East Storms?? I've been subbing for a guy for the past 3 years. He never seems to have our full checks.. Always has an excuse of some sort that the place that pays him is holding his money. We usually wait 30 days to get paid.. Which I can understand. We were told 45 days from the beginning of the snow season that we would be paid.. Ok, show me the money payup.. Now I am hearing that "we hope to be writing some checks by the end of this week".. Its been 60+ days so far and counting.. Not to mention that we had 2 back to back blizzards within a week and no $$ yet for those storms.. :realmad:
> 
> How do you get paid as subs?? At the end of each storm?? 30 day terms/45 day terms??


.....................................................


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

10-days here checks are sent if not sooner to our subs!


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## BGompers (Mar 3, 2010)

I have been paid in full for all of Dec,Jan. I dont sub for anybody. Local subs for me, I pay weekly. Guys who send me invoices, I try to pay within 45 days


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## Wayne Volz (Mar 1, 2002)

*He's jacking you around.*

No reason you are not paid well before 30 days. We pay our subs within a few days of the storm. That seems to be the norm from what I am reading here.

Phone call is in order to him Monday morning. Good luck.


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## BGompers (Mar 3, 2010)

Any money Sailscall?I know you prob made some phone calls today.


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## Lux Lawn (Jan 5, 2004)

The guy I sub for pays me no later then 30 days from the date on the invoice.


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

I just got paid from lest yr but my lawyer took 30 percent


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## Banksy (Aug 31, 2005)

I got my check today. From what I'm told, Brickman is paying very very slow and still owes big money. Ok, sign of the times, whatever. If management companies can't afford snow plow service, then let it melt.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

Banksy;1026682 said:


> I got my check today. From what I'm told, Brickman is paying very very slow and still owes big money. Ok, sign of the times, whatever. If management companies can't afford snow plow service, then let it melt.


I thought Brickman did 70 million last year in snow ?
But no money left over to pay the subs, right ? BS IMO


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## FisherVMan (Jan 5, 2010)

Yep this is alot of BS all right . I dont really know how this all got started with hand to mouthers trying to float anyone for 30 days but its bad bussiness in my opinion. If you have a sub pay him and if you are billing every 30 days so be it. But to try to hold the "One Truck Sub" up for 30 days is BS . When we need help; we pay em Cash on the Barrel Head as soon as the storm is over; the boys get their money; PERIOD. As far as some moron oweing money from back in December he IS NOT going to pay you he stiffed you ....................... its that simple. I dont know why people get into these mess's; if you wanted me to plow for you; I would do it, and do it right; then stick my paw right out; and expect you to pay me RIGHT NOW.If you had some phony story about you only pay once a month I would tell you to get someone else to plow as you are too shaky to work for. Why have Americans got this trying to play with money scam going every where; why dont people pay their bills? Because they are like Wall St Executives ...................CROOKED


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## snowplowchick (Feb 22, 2008)

alldayrj;1023929 said:


> I just got paid from lest yr but my lawyer took 30 percent


You got a deal if that was your lawyer's contingency fee. Mine takes 40%. Glad to hear you won though.


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## sailscall01 (Oct 19, 2005)

Well I finally got paid from the Dec. 19th storm.. 85 days after the storm!!! I kept calling and text messaging the guy I sub for asking him when I was going to get paid. I went to his yard and left a letter in his door asking where my money was and why he wasn't returning my calls. I eventually got a call from him saying checks were ready from the December storm. I go to meet him and WTF do I see but 2 new quads with plows and a Used Ford F-250 with a Western on it. My face is red and my heart is pounding now.. I am ready to blow up... I ask him what happened?? He replies that he was waiting for his payments from his contracts.. I asked him"did I do a good job for you?" "Did I not answer my cell when you called at 4:00 am to go out?" "Did you get complaints about my sites?" He replies NO.. I then ask" So why didn't I get paid?" He doesn't answer me and shakes his head.. Like oh well..I'm not kidding, I'm lucky I have self control.. This freakin guy held my money along with 3 other subs money , by the looks of it, to finance his new equipment.. 85 days to get paid and he still owes me for the two blizzards in February.. 

As I was reading from everyone who posted replies, I do thank you for all your in-site.. Some guy out there really know how to take care of their employees.. Some posted they pay 10 days after a storm.. 30 days is manageable to get paid. I understand that but not 85 days.. Hell if you and I don't pay a truck payment after 30-60 days the repo man is taking it. .. I do agree with a post that if you have a business then you need the capital to pay your workers or you shouldn't be in business..


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

> .. I do agree with a post that if you have a business then you need the capital to pay your workers or you shouldn't be in business..


You also have to remember in many cases the contractor has burned through his backup capital if his payments have been delayed. We have one account that owes us 10K, that we won't see till we drag them into court to get it, the first 2 payments (almost 10K) we only got by withholding service in the begining of Feb (contact start date was Oct 1). Unfortuatly we don't know how clients will pay (you hope everyone pays on time). Personally, I pay my subs & bills as the checks come in, I get payed last. Any business book will tell you I do it backwards & you should pay yourself first. My feeling is I signed the cleints it my problem to make sure I get paid. For what it's worth I have a waiting list of subs & potential employees wanting to work for me because of my philosphies. The guys always know to call if their in a pinch I WILL FIND THE MONEY TO PAY THEM. I would think all are good with how I do things, they come back year after year & seem happy.


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

Wow that thank god for what you got it horrible to have to wait like that,I always pray that the subs would treat them the way they treat the subs.Left high and dry and see how it feels when they're getting 2000 calls from their sites!


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## sailscall01 (Oct 19, 2005)

RLM;1029849 said:


> For what it's worth I have a waiting list of subs & potential employees wanting to work for me because of my philosophies. The guys always know to call if their in a pinch I WILL FIND THE MONEY TO PAY THEM. I would think all are good with how I do things, they come back year after year & seem happy.


You would be a person I would like to work for.. You will be/are successful in your plowing business because of your work ethic.. You said you will find the money to pay them.. You take care of those who have taken care of you during the storms.. Your a good boss.:salute:


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## sailscall01 (Oct 19, 2005)

So it's April 25th and our last blizzard was mid February with another 7-10" storm at the end of February.. I call the guy who I sub for on 4/18. I first text him a message wondering if he had a ball park of when he was issuing checks again for the Mid Feb. blizzard.. He calls me back ,not 3 seconds after he gets the text message.. He basically starts getting defensive saying he'll let me know when he gets paid from the "big" contractor he subs for in our area.. "I should know he is good paying out!!" As you read in my post.. I got paid 85 days from the first storm. From the beginning of the snow season,our deal was 45 days.. That is unacceptable.. He finally said he was going to take money out of his bank account and income tax check to pay me!! HAHA I said "OK!!" I said to him, "did you pay the bank that you bought the new quads from and the new Ford or was that paid with my money you are holding".. He hung up on me and text me 10 min later and said he will have my check ready by this Monday..


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

sailscall01;1039044 said:


> So it's April 25th and our last blizzard was mid February with another 7-10" storm at the end of February.. I call the guy who I sub for on 4/18. I first text him a message wondering if he had a ball park of when he was issuing checks again for the Mid Feb. blizzard.. He calls me back ,not 3 seconds after he gets the text message.. He basically starts getting defensive saying he'll let me know when he gets paid from the "big" contractor he subs for in our area.. "I should know he is good paying out!!" As you read in my post.. I got paid 85 days from the first storm. From the beginning of the snow season,our deal was 45 days.. That is unacceptable.. He finally said he was going to take money out of his bank account and income tax check to pay me!! HAHA I said "OK!!" I said to him, "did you pay the bank that you bought the new quads from and the new Ford or was that paid with my money you are holding".. He hung up on me and text me 10 min later and said he will have my check ready by this Monday..


Good for you. Stand your ground


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## dodge15004x45.9 (Jan 2, 2009)

Must agree with the big block ford!

I also most want to know this persons bussiness so I don't wind up in your shoes. 

Might be time to sub for someone else?


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

Walk silent and carry a big stick, be blessed. RJ


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

tough situation you are in, not saying the guy is right by any means, but take a few lessons:

subbing from a sub....red flag.

text messaging is not a way to communicate in a professional setting when you are looking for money, pick up the phone and make a call.


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## PennPusher (Apr 26, 2010)

maxximus98;1021839 said:


> There is no way to verify actual services rendered!! The home owner can say he never did anything. I had to shovel yadda yadda yadda how can a cop make a judgment it is impossible!! I really dont care but all I am saying is I would sue any cop for false imprisonment for something this bogus!! If that is the case why if you rent out a property and the renter doesnt pay. Shouldnt I be able to have that person arrested? No I would have to let that person live in my house until I get them evicted!! or all the banks would have people arrested for not paying their mortgages! It is a simple breach of contract and only settled in a court!!


 Your comparing apples and oranges here. trying to sue a police officer for "false imprisonment" wouldn't get past the front door. No lawyer in his right mind would represent you based on what you have said here. And renters/landlords isn't "services rendered" neither is a mortgage default or a breach of contract. "Theft of services" means just that. You employed someones services,not made a purchase of a tangable item. Services, like a haircut, taxi ride,lawn mowed or in this case snow plowed. If you couldnt afford to pay the man for his work then DONT hire him in the first place! If you do you are KNOWINGLY committing a theft. With all the unscrupulous people out there you have to cover your ass. I do by photographing the site BEFORE I plow and then again after. It also protects me from false claims of damage.( Had that attempted this past season but the campus security cameras backed me up )


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

i concure, as far as i am concerned when we hire a sub, the arrangement is between my company and them, my clients have nothing to do with the contract. So weither i get paid or not, i owe that money to my sub. Even national companies think that the risk should be assumed by the sub/contractor. All these national companies, USM, Level 1 (i recently had a experience with these guys) etc, are a crock of sh!t, they expect that if their clients can't pay the bill, then they shouldn't either, two wrongs don't make a right!!!


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