# Liability Insurance for non-commercial plowing



## bobingardner (Jul 18, 2004)

Several elderly neighbors have asked if I'd be available to plow their driveways and I'd like to do it at no charge but am concerned about liability. Does anyone have an opinion on how much and what type of insurance I should get. Does it make a difference that they won't be paying for the service or am I still putting myself at risk?

Thanks,
bob


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## qualitylawncare (Jan 16, 2004)

Please don't ask us for help when your going to be plowing for free. Free and cheap plowing takes food off my table.  

Anyway, liability and commercial auto insurance will run you anywhere from $4,000-$10,000 per year depending on how many drivers will be in your truck.


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## bobshm (Oct 11, 2004)

you are nuts ! It doesn't matter how sweet they are now. Wait until one of them slips, falls, and breaks a hip. Or worse, comes out to "help you" and walks behind the truck at night while you are backing up. If you want to help them and save yourself, give them the money to hire a plow contractor. :waving:


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## bobingardner (Jul 18, 2004)

I didn't think anyone would be offended by this. I'm not looking to lowball or take food off your table. I'm just looking to help a few neighbors on fixed incomes. Even if I was plowing commercially I wouldn't charge these people. Thanks for the feedback.


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## crashz (Jan 12, 2004)

Bob -

I don't beleive you need any. Because you are not responsible for clearing the driveways, as you are not paid by them. Make them understand this and also make sure they don't give you any "gifts" as a reward. Gifts could be easily construed as payment for services.

I could be wrong about this though. People are sueing each other for even more ridiculous things each day. Check with your auto insurance company.



Guys- 

I realize your livelyhood relies on plowing in the winter as I had a few years ago. However, Bob lives in Gardner, MA which is a little hole in the wall town, with very few people who can afford to a have a decent contactor for snow and ice removal. I lived there for a year back in college (commuted to UMass Lowell from there!) and there isn't much activity there. I'm sure that these elderly people would be forced to try and clear the driveway themselves if it wasn't for Bob.


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## Trails End Lawn (Oct 5, 2004)

*i agree*

I must say i agree with crash on both accounts. Atleast in Iowa if you are not responsible for clearing the drive or walks the liability does not rest on you. Its the same principle as shoveling some of your neighbors sidewalk you are not liable if someone falls on it he is. First and formost its the homeowners responsibility to make sure the grounds are safe.

Second i praise him for wanting to do something for free. Like crash said these people cant afford to pay us to do it. Lets face it at around here $60.00 hour is a large chunk out of someones budget who is on a tight or fixed income. I understand were everyone gets upset with lowballers but if you cant do something nice for people when they are in a tough situation than you need to take a look at yourself as a person.

Carry on Bob.


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## The Boss (Oct 22, 2003)

Bob, I agree witht the fact that you do not need insurance. If you are not under a contract and doing them just to be a good neighbor, you are not responsible. I too do a couple of old people's walks for free. They've been neighbors of my grandparents for years. You've got a good heart.  :waving:


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Check our "Good Samaritan" laws for your state. You should be OK, but just be aware that "anyone can be sued at any time for any thing". I heard of something (I think it was in Canada) where the lawyer sued everybody he could think of, even if they had nothing whatever to do with the action at issue. The purpose was to have the judge rule each person named as potentially liable or not. But each person had to hire a lawyer, even if they clearly had nothing to do with it.


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## rclay11541 (Oct 26, 2004)

*Advice from a newenglander*

You do need insurance or have them sign somthing which says,,,quote from my contract,,,,"By signing below i herby certify that i agree with the statements above and understand that all personal injury liablility is that of the homeowner. The company/contractor engaging in said work is herby released of any and all liability in concerns with personal injury derived from any winter acumulation either before after or during work."

This isn't an exact quote doing it from memory.

If money exchanges hands your are reasponsible for: Personal injury liablility, auto accident liability, structural liability.

If money dosen't exchange hands your are reasponsiblie forersonal injury liablility, auto accident liability, structural liability.

This is the law in the State of NJ

Ryan

ANR Landscaping LLP
Somerset County NJ


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## crazymike (Oct 22, 2004)

Although I'm new at plowing, I've ran my own business before and know what it takes to put food on the table.

However, plowing old peoples driveways is far from lowballing. They don't have the money to plow their driveway, he's taking time out of his day and wear on his equipment to do something nice.

It's not taking money out of your pocket if it wouldn't be there in the first place. And he's not doing it to make money.

I guess we should jump all over Goodwill too. Taking money away from the Gap, etc... by providing cheap clothing to less fortunate.

(sorry if I missed the sarcasm)


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## Young Pup (Aug 13, 2004)

bobingardner said:


> I didn't think anyone would be offended by this. I'm not looking to lowball or take food off your table. I'm just looking to help a few neighbors on fixed incomes. Even if I was plowing commercially I wouldn't charge these people. Thanks for the feedback.


IMO it is hard to find good neighbors to watch out for each other. I commend you and think you are doing the right thing. Here a neighbor of mine does the whole city block sidewalk with a snowblower while the other does the walks up to the homes with a shovel. Last year I dropped the plow in the alley. It is called taken care of each other and watching other peoples backs. What comes around goes around.


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## Hawkc01 (Oct 23, 2004)

Can't keep quiet on this one. 

When I moved to my current residence, a 1920s cabin resort in southern Minnesota, it wasn't difficult to fit in with the natives. I spent the first three hours of my first weekend plowing over 20 driveways with my ATV. Well, 3 years later the Phantom 4-Wheeler is still going at it everytime it snows...for free. Young and old, I do them all. Nobody can say they know all of the people in my neighborhood...except for me. What happened later was a and unexpected blessing...

next door...75 year old WII vet sold me his home and land for 50K under value because he said I've been the most helpful person he has lived next to in 45 years. I also cut his and 5 others lawns for free!

2 houses down purchased a 10K HVAC system and a 4K roofing system from both my HVAC and roofing companies. I have outsourced thousands of dollars in home renovation to friends as well for this property.

4 houses down purchased over 5k for fireplace/water heater from my HVAC company.

6 houses down lost a 2-year old daughter to CO poisoning just 3 months after moving in. They had already lost a daughter to SIDS less than 2 years ago. They couldn't live in the house due to the emotional stress, so they demolished it and built new. I donated the 20K HVAC system and have received over 20 referrals from it.

7 houses down puchased 3k A/C system from my HVAC company and sold me a mint Sno-Way for $300 to get me started in a 4th business...you guessed it...snow removal.

22k in sales = 20k donation...all because I'm taking food off your table. Give me a break!

I give because I am able....and without the notion of receiving. Giving gives...and when it doesn't...keep giving.

Yesterday I called an elementary school teacher of mine who I have not spoken to in over 22 years (when I was her student) and told her that I wanted to plow her driveway for free because of the impact she had on my life. She cried and then declared she was paying someone to do it, but felt she couldn't say no to me. I told her that I will not do something for free that someone else is depending on and if things dont work out I'll be waiting for her call. 

You say I'm taking $/food off your table...I say if you didn't share and convince that prospect of the benefits of choosing your company over mine, then the business was never yours to have!

You say I'm taking $/food off your table...I say if you provide unsatisfactory service to someone...you just lost another account...to me!

Don't say you do it for free because they don't have the money. That is the last worthy reason for doing it and they probably do have the money. 

Sorry for being long winded...NEVER stop being a Great American.


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## bterry (Oct 30, 2003)

> Please don't ask *us* for help when your going to be plowing for free.


Steve - at quality lawn care, I guess your getting the idea by now, but I'd like to add just one thing. Speak for yourself. It doesn't look like your values are the same as many of *us* here.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Does the same principals aple to other areas? Can you honestly say that you never stopped to help someone change a tire on the side of the road. I never felt like I was taking food away from the tow truck driver. I just don't get it.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

Guys , I dont think Steve is lookin to bash the boyscout helping the little ol'lady across the street here. I beleive his point is the guy who buys a new 4 wheel drive, gets a plow to do his own driveway and ends up plowing out everyone who will let him for free. This includes people under contract per push for residential. " I'll save ya some money cause this is fun". Then he starts to lick his chops and says I bet my bud with the small buisness would let me do his lot for free too!!!! Boy pushin a commercial lot would be more fun then those driveways. Get my drift ? I know were Steve is coming from, I have had the neighbor with the new blower helpin his neighbor out, show up to push and "Bob's gonna snow blow for free, save me some money Todd." But please come buy if it snows during the week cause "Bob" wont have time to do my drive then. Total BS if ya ask me. People are ignorant to this " Takin food of my table" as Steve puts it, I think I tend too look at it the same way.
Oh and my neighbors husband of 56 years just passed away, I told her not to worry about her drive or sidewalks as long as she lives there. I wish I had the time to take care of her yard for free too. Oh and on the insurance issue you have "none" for snow plowing. So if you damage something other then your own truck while doing charity work it will not be covered. Your Auto insurance will only repair your truck, not the garage or fire hydrant that was damaged. Just my 2 cents Todd


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

T-MAN

It is not entirely true about your insurance not covering you if you hit a fire hydrant, telephone pole, etc. Well, at least for my case, and perhaps the original poster.

I have commercial auto insurance on my truck and I have checked the box that says my vehicle has a plow. I'm covered for any damage caused DIRECTLY from my vehicle OR my plow. Therefore, if I drive through the neighbors garage I pay my deductible and I'm on my way (along with increased rates, a headache, etc.). However, if aunt millie slips and falls because of the snow melting and then refreezing my AUTO insurance will not cover a darn thing because it was not a direct cause from my plow OR my vehicle.


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## T-MAN (Jan 9, 2001)

DJL, good point on the auto insurance, as you stated you have commercial auto policy. I too have commercial and you are covered, as you stated. What I was refering too is non commercial auto insurance. They will cover your vehicle, the damage and no liability. Then they will drop you, and could sue you for damages. No BS, believe it guys. Just cause you insure 2 cars and your house really means nothing as far as loyality goes. If I recall they do ask if you use your vehicle for work right?  
Todd


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

T-MAN, yes they ask if you use it for work. I had residential insurance and checked the box for having a plow on the vehicle. Immediate response was do you use it for business. They said it wouldn't be covered. However, what was covered under residential was if I did my personal home. Therefore, damage to MY property or strictly while in transit (i.e. to service shop, gas station, etc.) would be covered. The minute the plow went down on another driveway, lot, etc. no coverage!


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## bobingardner (Jul 18, 2004)

I spoke to my insurance agent and was told that a private auto policy will not cover me for anything that happens while plowing someone else's driveway if they suspect I was doing on a regular basis, even if I'm doing for free. In retrospect this makes sense since I'm adding to the risk of an accident. I guess I should have checked with them before starting this thread. Sorry about the needless aggravation.

So, some time next week I'll re-register as a commercial vehicle and update my policy. The agent said it will add about 10% to the cost. I also asked about general liability and was quoted $1500 a year and told it would not cover any truck related accident. 

I never intended to plow for money and it still isn't something I'm interested in doing. Owning a plow is just something I've wanted to do since I was a kid and I felt this was the best time in my life to do it. But I can't plow my driveway and not do my neighbors. I also can't charge them so my current plan is to sell the plow and truck in the spring.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

bobingardner said:


> I never intended to plow for money and it still isn't something I'm interested in doing. Owning a plow is just something I've wanted to do since I was a kid and I felt this was the best time in my life to do it.


I suspect that's how a majority of people here started plowing, I know I did.

1. Bought the plow to do my own driveway
2. Since I've got it, might as well do a few neighbors to help pay for it
3. Getting paid, I need insurance
4. Take a few more to pay the insurance
5. Some are calling for sanding/salting, so need bigger truck
6. Take on some more to pay for the "bigger truck"
8. and it goes from there....


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## RamesesSnow23 (Jan 4, 2004)

qualitylawncare said:


> Please don't ask us for help when your going to be plowing for free. Free and cheap plowing takes food off my table.
> 
> Anyway, liability and commercial auto insurance will run you anywhere from $4,000-$10,000 per year depending on how many drivers will be in your truck.


Yea, yea, yea..... I know
Lowballers are one thing, doing a few elderly neighbors for free is quite different. Its called free enterprise, i can plow whoever i want for free, ie people i know, neighbors that take literally one pass for 25'. Lowballers eventually burn themsealves out, we all know that, their service is no where near up to par. I hit a few drives for free from storm to storm, these people have no intention of hiring a plow, they would be shoveling themsealves or having their son do it, but the son lives 20 miles away and is usually in some bar room or someting, whatever he is doing he never shows up.


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## usabestsnoplowr (Nov 6, 2004)

*Neighbors helping neighbors, neighbors sueing neighbors watch out!! Dont trust anyone*

I got started a little different than mick, almost the same, I accidently got into plowing snow, picture this, I have a landscaping and property maintenance company, brand new 2 years ago, I go to staples and buy preprinted forms Contracts for property maintenance, I signed up all my customers on a seasonal maintenance price for LAWN CUTTING, the first snowfall came and 50 people called me up to ask where I was, I failed to read the entire contract and in there it said that I would be responsible for Snow Plowing opps. Called a lawyer and he told me you better go plow them before someone falls and sues you. Luckly it also stated that snow removal was an extra charge!!!!!!


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

usabestsnoplowr said:


> I got started a little different than mick, almost the same, I accidently got into plowing snow, picture this, I have a landscaping and property maintenance company, brand new 2 years ago, I go to staples and buy preprinted forms Contracts for property maintenance, I signed up all my customers on a seasonal maintenance price for LAWN CUTTING, the first snowfall came and 50 people called me up to ask where I was, I failed to read the entire contract and in there it said that I would be responsible for Snow Plowing opps. Called a lawyer and he told me you better go plow them before someone falls and sues you. Luckly it also stated that snow removal was an extra charge!!!!!!


Ooops. Hope you don't mind, but I got a good laugh out of that one. Still just roaring. Glad that "extra charge" clause was in there. Talk about "learn under fire". :waving:

Did you have any experience plowing or did you have to go buy a plow?


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## johntwist (Feb 10, 2004)

I'm with Mick, you dodged a bullet on that one for sure!


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## Young Pup (Aug 13, 2004)

USABESTS,

One question did your heart stop? Sorry but I too am still laughing on this one. Sounds like everything worked out for you. :redbounce :waving:


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## usabestsnoplowr (Nov 6, 2004)

*Lucky sometimes*

I actually borrowed a pick up that had a plow on it th first day, got lucky again and bought a 86 pick up with a really old fisher plow so old tha I had to get out and reverse the blade by pulling a pin and swinging it lock the pin back in and then I was good to go. Did that one year, hey two years latter and I am now running 2 boss Vs and a westrn MVP. still got the old plow up at my dads farm. Yes I had plowed for a year with a guy in a town called clifton park. I used his truck had no heat?????


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## B_Cool (Dec 24, 2005)

*save it.*



> Please don't ask us for help when your going to be plowing for free. Free and cheap plowing takes food off my table.
> 
> .


are you super plower? ready to plow ALL snow that falls? qualitylawncaresuperplowpeople should be your name. your snott-pickin' remarks are not necessary.

food off your table?... how much do you eat?


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## johntwist (Feb 10, 2004)

B_Cool said:


> are you super plower? ready to plow ALL snow that falls? qualitylawncaresuperplowpeople should be your name. your snott-pickin' remarks are not necessary.
> 
> food off your table?... how much do you eat?


I can understand you not agreeing with quality's post, but since he made it over a year ago, I don't think you responding now is going to have much of an effect. Also, confronting another member with your very first post isn't the best way to say "hello" to the boys, you won't get very far here if you talk to everyone you don't agree with like that.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

If a moderator is looking at this thinking about removing it, would you just remove the remarks of B Cool and since? I think there's some information and opinions worth saving.


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## ramblinman522 (Dec 9, 2008)

qualitylawncare;157869 said:


> Please don't ask us for help when your going to be plowing for free. Free and cheap plowing takes food off my table.
> 
> Anyway, liability and commercial auto insurance will run you anywhere from $4,000-$10,000 per year depending on how many drivers will be in your truck.


My new york insurance agent charges me just $850 for $1,000,000 worth of coverage on my commercial auto policy that includes plowing. My liability insurance for $1,000,000 only costs $1400. My agents name is WJ Farmer Insurance 1-800-409-9390


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## festerw (Sep 25, 2003)

^ you are about 3 years too late to be any help to this person.


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## plownoob (Aug 14, 2008)

zombie thread


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

plownoob;669253 said:


> zombie thread


i love zombies


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