# How Much P/Hour?



## Stan (Nov 28, 2003)

Just curious what the rates per hour are in different places. Based on owner operators employed by contractors with "pickup" size trucks.???


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## Eyesell (Nov 7, 2003)

try to get a buck 25 here


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## apkole (Mar 1, 2003)

What Eyesell said, then add some. I like to see our subs a little over $100/hr, and most seasons they are. Good equipment and reliable people are worth every cent.


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## jo2fst4u (Dec 20, 2003)

I get $50 with my own truck for a another company. The drivways i do i get $20 to $50 I have about a dozen drives. I have a few parking lot that are on call


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

I think I'm pretty competitive for my area @ $110 per hour average for commercial work. We have some contracts that are hourly, by the push and by total 24 hr snowfall. Going rate for subs. is $50-60. Hand crews are billed additional on all jobs @ $30.00 per hour. Sand and Salt is by the ton. Residential is always billed by the push. I think we make more hourly doing residential, but a majority of my contracts are commercial.


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

I am right there with JMR. I get $110 - $125 / hour and pay subs $50 - $60 per hour based on equipment and experience.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

I believe this question is too vague. A "pickup Size" truck could mean a small pickup (i.e ranger, S10, etc.) w/ a 6.5' plow all the way up to a F350 with a 9' straight or some type of V-plow. Wouldn't the rates depend on the size of the plow and/or the experience of the operator? I think the better question would be what someone gets paid per hour for "x" size plow on a 1/2, 3/4, 1-ton pickups. Just my opinion.


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

I wouldn't even hire an S-10 or any other 1/4 ton truck. Now, don't get me wrong here... The flame suit is now on:yow!: There is rarely a difference between plow vehicles of 1/2 ton through 1 ton. Yes, I know more blade can safely be mounted on a 1 ton. But for the most part, they all plow the same. 99% of it all is driver experience and knowledge of the lay of the land.

I don't think it is too vague a question.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

I agree, I think we are talking average 1/2-1 ton trucks 7 - 9' blades. I don't believe we are talking about heavy equipment, loaders or light duty trucks.


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## S-10 Plower (Nov 28, 2003)

OK not trying to start a war here but what is wrong with a s-10 I have one and have plowed with it for three years it serves its purpose


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

Don't worry, S-10 plower. I have absolutely nothing wrong with S-10's. They just can't move the same amount of snow a 1/2 ton - 1 ton can within a reasonable time frame.

I plow commercial 70% and industrial 30% of the time. With such large open areas it comes down to the size of the blade and horsepower. Time is money. What may take me 10 swipes may take you 15. That isn't much of a difference; only by 1/3. But, when we are out for 15 hours plowing snow, I would have to pay you for another 5 hours because you will be out there that much longer cleaning up the same amount of snow.

Now, driveways and apartment complexes are entirely different. A smaller truck and blade could be beneficial. Getting between parked cars and zipping up and down driveways is easier with a more maneuverable vehicle.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

Nothing wrong with the S-10. No offense meant. I just believe they are not large enough(both blade capable and size wise) to do commercial snow removal. Might be ok for smaller commercial, but not for the bigger stuff. I'm sure great for residential work or smaller tight commercial. Ever try radius plowing Wal Mart + size lots with an S-10. I'm sure with the right properties you can make plenty per hour with an S-10 size truck.

Again I'm NOT trying to start a war. No flame suit needed.Use the right size tool for the job.


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

*JMR*

Next time you are in Chicago or I am in Omaha, we need to get together and go bowling We will bring S-10 plower too.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

We pay subs 55.00 per hour , old truck or new truck , any truck with a blade 6 ft to 8 ft. I send little trucks to small lots first. Full size to the bigger lots . I dont care if its 2 wd or 4wd as long as the job gets done and done right.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

*Re: JMR*



> _Originally posted by Plow Meister _
> *Next time you are in Chicago or I am in Omaha, we need to get together and go bowling We will bring S-10 plower too. *


I'll take you up on that. Bowling is an excuse for my drinking and drinking is an excuse for my bowling.

mdirrigation: You're absolutely right. I think we are all saying you can make good money with any size equipment as long as you don't bite off more than you can chew. No the limitations of what you are working with. Over working a truck may make you some big $$$ in the short run, but I think over the long haul breakdowns & increase repair costs will eat up the $$$.


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## Stan (Nov 28, 2003)

Personally I'm making $50. p/hour. This year I just put a 7.5 on my K-Blazer and still have the CJ with the 6.5. I sub at condo's, apartments and some parking lots as well with my own accounts. 
At times I sure wish I was driving the CJ! The "smaller" trucks as s-10 are well worth their $ especially in tight places and at times can do it alot faster -vs- a full size pickup in my opinion.


Next question; whats the average pay per hour with a driver in YOUR truck? I currently pay $20. per hour for the driver in the CJ. BIG plus with this driver, mechanic "on board"! Prevents me from stopping what I am doing in the event of the inevitable.


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

$15 - $20 per hour. Depends on experience.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

Experienced driver, my truck $20-25 per hour plus meals.


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## rewoodworking (Dec 19, 2003)

OK i was in the deli the day of storm and a guy saw my plow and he asked me how much he was a local so i said 20.00 boy was he pissed off and said how long can it take you to drive up my drive maybe 15 min with driving i tried to give reason and he just wouldn't here it 

all i could say was so shovel it if you don't like it what else can you say right


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## Boutallnite (Dec 7, 2003)

I have a TJ and I work for $50 an hour. I do 20 - 50 car lots on it and driveways. And it is great! Sometimes I wish I had a big pickup to get done faster and sometimes I don't. 


rewoodworking, I know what you mean. The other day I was driving around and saw these 2 oder ladies shoveling the walkway and they had a small driveway. So offered to do it $20 and they said it was too much. It proabaly took them 2 hours to dig that drive out. People can be so cheap sometimes.


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

> _Originally posted by rewoodworking _
> *OK i was in the deli the day of storm and a guy saw my plow and he asked me how much he was a local so i said 20.00 boy was he pissed off and said how long can it take you to drive up my drive maybe 15 min with driving i tried to give reason and he just wouldn't here it *


I just like to laugh at those people . I try to do it in the inside because you never know when you may need something from them.


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## The Boss (Oct 22, 2003)

The average rate around my area is $75.00 per hour. Also, I wouldn't hire any 1/4 ton trucks to sub.:waving:


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## Headsupracer (Dec 16, 2003)

In Maryland we're getting $70-$80 hour and $100-125 with spreader. That's for basic parking lot work. Contract for the local govt with 3/4 ton - up with spreader it's $125 hour.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

I'm sorry but I need to put my two cents in and continue this constructive debate here. I'm not trying to offend anyone or accuse anyone of anything. First, let me state that every truck and plow has its place. I'm not trying to argue that an S-10 with a 6' plow is useless. In fact, I realize it can be more effective than full-size pick-ups in certain situations. And yes, I agree that drivers experience should account for something. 

With that said....

Assuming larger commercial parking lots and fairly equal driver skills. IMO, a driver with a 6' plow should NOT be making the same amount of money per hour as that of someone with an 8' plow. First, the truck with the 8' plow can push much, much more snow than the truck with the 6' plow. Second, the 8' plow has a much better stacking ability than the 6' plow does. Third, isn't the expenses for a small pick-up much less than that of a full-size pickup? I've never owned a small pick-up so I'm not 100% accurate on this. I'm making an assumption.

The way I look at it is a 4 to 3 ratio (8' versus 6'). Picking an arbitrary number of $50 for a driver with a 6' plow and using the 4 to 3 ratio...than a driver with an 8' plow should be getting ~$65. I also realize a company can pay their subs whatever the heck they want and if they can find subs to work for X dollars than that is good for them. I would not work for someone knowing that I was making the same as that of a driver with a 6' plow. But, then again if someone was paying me $85 an hour to push snow I could care less what they pay everyone else no matter what size plow they have because I know I'd be making good money. Just some of my thoughts.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

THE BOSS & HEADSUPRACER: are you guys pricing the average of whats getting billed to the customers or what sub contractors make. Just looking for clarification.
I feel on commercial we are competitive at $110. I've talked to guys @ $80(lowballers) and others @ $165. I'm talking 1/2-1 ton trucks, 7-9' blades. I could make more do residential, but I prefer commercial. I do have a group (8) of residential all with in 6 blocks of one another. Gross for the 8 = $260. Total time for them 1.5 hours. Better money, but I still like the commercial work.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

I'm having a hard time with the original question..... 

Is this what guys are being HIRED at per hour as a Subcontractor at say a mall or shopping center? 

Or is this what guys are charging as a Owner operator for plowing their OWN contracted lots?

If it's what your being "HIRED out at" or getting paid as a Subcontractor, I would say this ranges from $50 to $65/hr for a pickup.

But why do that when you can get the jobs yourself and TRIPPLE those figures, do less work and be home sooner?

Can you tell I'm an example of the latter?

These last few little storms I was in and out and back home in short time. Grossing over $171 and $223 per hour.

Sure, they were only 4 hr runs, but hey, I make it when I can. Its these little 1-2" snows that MUST BE plowed (too cold to chance it freezing) but only take 1/3 of the time a 4-6" snow takes.

Then add salting (the highest profitable work out there) into the job, and thats how you can easily make these figures.


So, would you rather work your body and truck for 16+ hrs at $55/hr for some other guy, or make the same total amount ($895) in 4 hours working for yourself?


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## Ground Master (Feb 11, 2002)

Do many of you have a hard time finding subs at 50 to 65 per hour? Seems low to me.


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

> _Originally posted by TLS _
> *
> 
> But why do that when you can get the jobs yourself and TRIPPLE those figures, do less work and be home sooner?
> ...


Less overhead. Already have a day job. One truck operation. Posibility of break downs and not being able to service customer in a timely basis. Inadequate insurance. Costs don't always substanciate the means.


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## paponte (Oct 28, 2003)

At least $120. per hr, sub $60. We don't bid per hour, we rather lot size. If your good and you charge per hour, your just robbing yourself.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

I hear ya Plow Meister, I have a "Day" job as well. Matter of fact between Sunday's Storm(s) I worked an 8 hr shift with the two 4 hr plows on either end of it.

So far this year with the three "event's" I havent missed one Hour of "Day" job yet.

payup 

Paponte,

I don't know if your reply is aimed at me or not, but I'm just taking my Gross and dividing by my total hours for the storm. I've NEVER bid by the hour. People would fall over backwards in cardiac arrest if they heard the $223/hr figure.


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## The Boss (Oct 22, 2003)

*JMR*

That's what the average amount per hour that guys around here charge. I wish I could get over $100.00 per hour but no way is that happening around here. If someone does get that much, I haven't heard about it and I'm pretty good friends with all the big boys here.:waving:


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

I subbed for years, now I'm the contract holder. A lot more responsibility. I'm the guy the has to make sure it gets done and gets done right. I'm the guy who gets the phone calls when there is problem, who carries high dollar insurance, who scrambles for drivers or subs when someones breakdown, sick or out of town. Same respect though why only work 4 hours @ 100-175+ when you can work 16 @ 100-175 +. Much better money being the contract holder than being a sub. Everybody's situation is different and that will dictate whether sub contracting or being the contract holder is for them. 

As for billing: I personal have accounts that are billed 3 different ways. 1) By the push with trigger and inch limits, 2) By the inch 1-3,3-6,etc 24hr snow fall, and some by the hour. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

By the push: I have 4" of snow, but 6' drifts. Sometimes no drifts.

By the inch: I have a large lot this method. 1" snow 4 man hours to push. 2.9" of snow 8 man hours to push. Same $. 
3" snow 8 man hours. 5.9" snow 12 man hours. Sometimes has drifts, sometimes not, most times the lots are empty, but sometimes has cars in them. The price must be figured at the upper end of each inch increment.

By the hour: This is the most consistent method. If there are drifts, cars, obstacles, or what ever you known exactly what you are charging for and what your making.

Whatever works for you and allows you to make money is what counts.

payup


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

furthur clarification to what you are paid as a sub or what you pay your subs for a PU

is pay for just the time "working" in a lot or is the clock still running between lots? 

Pay for milage?

Bonuses? (maybe this is were the better driver/truck helps or is rewarded)

Why be a sub? Some people just cant handle or dont what the responsibility. And when I say cant handle I mean because of possible other comitments like job or family not that they deficient in some way.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

I pay my subs start to finish including drive time. My lots are fairly large and close to one another. I do know a guy who doesn't pay his subs drive time, I'm told though most of his subs round their plowing time up to make up for it.


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

I pay my subs from the time I call them to the time we are done. Any good boss knows how long it takes to get ready for work, get to a job site, plow the lot(s) in question and drive between lots. I know when my guys are slacking and bust their chops if they do. Last year was good. 10 subs, no slackers. As for bonuses, meals are their bonus. 

Ratlover, you ask "why be a sub"? look at one of my previous posts in this thread.


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## Remsen1 (Jan 5, 2001)

You're not always robbing yourself if you charge per hour as long as you charge the right amount. If you are extremely efficient you make more per hour for the same amount of work. If you are extremely efficient some customer may get scared if you say you can do it for $180 per hour, so you may want to put it in terms of per push which then they can compare your price to the "last guy".

For example you charge $180/hr and the lot takes you 15 minutes ($45/push).

The "last guy" charged $100/hr and took 30 minutes or $50 per push.

Which price are you going to quote the customer $180/hr or $45 for the job?

You could do two similar driveways and make $90 while the last guy makes his $50.

I avoid telling anybody my hourly price cause it scares them too much when they don't realize that I can do it more efficiently ESPECIALLY when the home owner puts it in terms of how fast he/she can do it themself.


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Remsen1 _
> *
> 
> For example you charge $180/hr and the lot takes you 15 minutes ($45/push).
> ...


Most plowers here who charge on a per-hjour base specify a 1 hour minimum charge. As far as driveways go, I don't know of anyone charging an hourly rate. In my case, I look at the job and, based on experience, I figure how long it will take to plow. Then, add in a bit of drive time. After all is added up, I devide it into what I would normally charge per hour. Voila:redbounce , instant quote per push.


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## Stan (Nov 28, 2003)

WOW, did'nt think I would get 2 pages on this issue that quick. Great topic, keep it up! This is good stuff.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

Only lots we do hourly are commercial. Residential is by the push. Here is were hourly works well. I plow a muffler shop. The lot usually takes 30 mins on a 6" snow. Charge for the lot is $60. Last time I pushed it 6" snow, but the back side of the building had 7' + drifts due to high winds. Took me 1.25 hours. If the contract was bid per push by the inch I would have taken it in the shorts. Instead customer was billed $150. Fortunately for me this contract is by the hour. If I would bid this lot by the push on a 6" snow @ $150 I'm sure I wouldn't have the account. The property owner though can see my effort and time involved to clear his lot and I get compensated for it. O the other hand on a 1" snow I'm in and out of the lot in 15 min @ $30. It works for me. Like I said earlier I use 3 different methods for bidding. They all work and they all make me payup


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Some people keep asking why would anyone ever sub? It's pretty easy. I don't have a loader to stack snow, I don't have a salter, I'm one man, I work another full-time job, need I go on? It is very easy for someone to ask, "why don't you do it on your own?" People have their reasons, as have I. I just hope those asking that question aren't the same as those complaining about every Tom, Dick, and Harry getting into the business. Wouldn't that be hypocritical? Please do not take any offense, none is meant. 

This year is my first year out on my own. I picked up one little commercial lot that is pretty small and keeps me busy enough. I learned a lot from subcontracting myself over the past two years. Now, by taking it slow in my own business I'm learning all about contracts, how/when to salt/sand, etc and most of all how to deal with the customer. If I didn't sub I don't think I'd be as efficient or know as much as I do now. In fact, I still sub myself out after I get my work done. 

As for the price of subcontracting. I don't want to start a price war, they seem to go on forever in this forum, but I'm going to anyway and probably regret it. For me, here in Central Joisey, I would expect a minimum of $65/hour for myself, 7.5' plow, and 3/4-ton truck. The time would start the minute I arrive at your location. If you want me to travel a half hour here and twenty minutes there, then yes you are going to pay me for that. I just wouldn't be able to keep up with the wear&tear, insurance, and all the miscellaneous expenses and make a decent hourly rate below $65/hr. Honestly, I can't believe people do it for anything less. Hey whatever works for ya.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

my "why be a sub?" question was kinda a self answering type deal......


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

Another reason why to sub, the sub gets paid by the contractor,whether or not the contractor gets paid fast , slow or not at all. As a sub you dont have to bill , and collect. 
Being a subcontractor is great for the person who doesnt want to deal with all the BS. I do both , I take care of my contracts with 4 trucks as the trucks finish they are sent to a guy that has large lots if he needs them .


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mdirrigation _
> *Another reason why to sub, the sub gets paid by the contractor,whether or not the contractor gets paid fast , slow or not at all. As a sub you dont have to bill , and collect.
> Being a subcontractor is great for the person who doesnt want to deal with all the BS. I do both , I take care of my contracts with 4 trucks as the trucks finish they are sent to a guy that has large lots if he needs them . *


I do exactly the same. But as the contractor I'm always the last guy to get paid. I do all the billing and put up with all the hassles. When your a sub you can just concentrate on plowing. Some people just are not cut out to be the contractor.


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DJL _
> * For me, here in Central Joisey, I would expect a minimum of $65/hour for myself, 7.5' plow, and 3/4-ton truck. The time would start the minute I arrive at your location. If you want me to travel a half hour here and twenty minutes there, then yes you are going to pay me for that. I just wouldn't be able to keep up with the wear&tear, insurance, and all the miscellaneous expenses and make a decent hourly rate below $65/hr. Honestly, I can't believe people do it for anything less. Hey whatever works for ya. *


FWIW,
I'm in "slightly" northern NJ. I have only 15/20 accounts, which I do myself. Doing them myself, I'm getting about $200/hour for residental work. I can't see being a sub at $65/hour or thereabouts, when you can find your own accounts and make triple the money, which in turn yields 1/3 the wear and tear on the equipment, too.
Pete


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## jsaunders (Jan 28, 2003)

I'm with switchless- I'm 100% res. very little commercial around my area. Yet I average $175 -200 per hour after deducting fuel. It really makes it hard for me to get into comm. when I'm home after 6-8 hrs of plowing then my friend who is usually out for 24hrs. Now maybe he is making the same per hour, I don't know. I have asked him per hour figures and he said he never figured it out Joel


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Switchless _
> *FWIW,
> I'm in "slightly" northern NJ. I have only 15/20 accounts, which I do myself. Doing them myself, I'm getting about $200/hour for residental work. I can't see being a sub at $65/hour or thereabouts, when you can find your own accounts and make triple the money, which in turn yields 1/3 the wear and tear on the equipment, too.
> Pete *


Maybe you should read this entire thread as well as others posted here recently regarding this topic. There are a lot of great reasons to sub. Just not the right reasons for you, personally.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Switchless _
> *FWIW,
> I'm in "slightly" northern NJ. I have only 15/20 accounts, which I do myself. Doing them myself, I'm getting about $200/hour for residential work. I can't see being a sub at $65/hour or thereabouts, when you can find your own accounts and make triple the money, which in turn yields 1/3 the wear and tear on the equipment, too.
> Pete *


As stated in this thread often times a persons situation dictates whether they work as a sub or the contract holding contractor. Many of my subs are only available during certain hours of the day, work commitments, family, etc. Therefore for them to make the commitment to a business or residential customer that they can have their property cleared by XX time isn't feasible for them. Therefore they sub plowing snow as there schedule permits.


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Plow Meister _
> *Maybe you should read this entire thread as well as others posted here recently regarding this topic. There are a lot of great reasons to sub. Just not the right reasons for you, personally. *


Since I cut lawns in the summer, charge the customer $65/hour per man, and pay my helper $20/hour (casual labor clause), therefore making about $30/hour off him, I fully understand what you are saying. My input is just from a solo operator's view, and thought it was worth mentioning. Also, we all know as you increase employee's, the profit margin keeps going down. Futhermore, I'm not very good at handling pressure and headaches, so I'm more comfortable just "bossing myself" around. 
Pete


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## CMerLand (May 2, 2000)

> _Originally posted by jsaunders _
> *I'm with switchless- I'm 100% res. very little commercial around my area. Yet I average $175 -200 per hour after deducting fuel. It really makes it hard for me to get into comm. when I'm home after 6-8 hrs of plowing then my friend who is usually out for 24hrs. Joel *


$ 175 to $ 200 after deducting fuel????? Thats your only expense???? I dont think so. Lets add a little to that list shall we???

1. Cost of the plow divided by hours of expected use, and dont forget the insurance you have to carry on it, maintenance and repair costs?

2. Cost of vehicle wear and tear plus the additonal monies you paid up front to get the 4 X 4 in the first place. After years of plowing will you have earned back enough money to replace that truck that you killed plowing or has your nice new truck become a rust bucket and theres no money in the bank???

3. Do you include the time to prep the truck before the storm and the time to wash the truck off after the storm in the number of hours you divide into the amount you made?

4. Insurance costs of plowing?

5. Cell phone/office phone/billing time? Advertising, contracting, bad debts???

These are just a few of the costs that have to be deducted from the total amount to determine if you actually made money plowing.

Dont get me wrong, if your pulling down 175-200 an hour thats great because you probably actually made enough money on the job to cover all these other expenses. But dont think for a minute that your putting all that money in your pocket.


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mdirrigation _
> * I do both , I take care of my contracts with 4 trucks as the trucks finish they are sent to a guy that has large lots if he needs them . *


OK...........
So why sent your trucks out to someone else, to make $65/hour, when "you" can take on more accounts for double or triple the money??? I'm not trying to argue, but I'm trying to understand. Also, I have no problem collecting my money from anyone. You need to know your accounts. Furthemore, if you need your money "right now", IMO something is wrong with how you budget your income......
Just my two cents.
Pete


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CMerLand _
> *$ 175 to $ 200 after deducting fuel????? Thats your only expense???? I dont think so. Lets add a little to that list shall we???
> 
> 1. Cost of the plow divided by hours of expected use, and dont forget the insurance you have to carry on it, maintenance and repair costs?
> ...


Good points........................And, as a "sub" these are costs you have to pay out of your $65/hour, since they don't change. So, just how far does that $65/hour go now?????

Pete


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JMR _
> *As stated in this thread often times a persons situation dictates whether they work as a sub or the contract holding contractor. Many of my subs are only available during certain hours of the day, work commitments, family, etc. Therefore for them to make the commitment to a business or residential customer that they can have their property cleared by XX time isn't feasible for them. Therefore they sub plowing snow as there schedule permits. *


Situations differ and cost of doing work as a sub is lower. Same vehicle expenses but does a sub really need GL insurance? since he isn't the contract holder.

I will agree there is lots of money to be made doing residential. I started as a sub, but my situation allowed me to become the contractor. I know I made good money as a sub for many years. Not as good as I make now. But none the less GOOD money.


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JMR _
> *Situations differ and cost of doing work as a sub is lower. Same vehicle expenses but does a sub really need GL insurance? since he isn't the contract holder.
> 
> I will agree there is lots of money to be made doing residential. I started as a sub, but my situation allowed me to become the contractor. I know I made good money as a sub for many years. Not as good as I make now. But none the less GOOD money. *


Actually,I guess I'm looking at this thread from more the Sub's perspective, rather than the Contractor. IMO, if you have the time to sub, you should be able to find a "much smaller" amount of time to work for yourself, and make the same amount of money. Also, you end up putting 1/2 to 1/3 the wear and tear on your equipment. 
Pete


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Switchless (a.k.a Pete),

I think you really need to go back to the previous posts and try and absorb a little more. Not intending to be rude, but you seem to be missing everyone else's points. I said AFTER my one commercial account (yes, i'm very, very small just starting out but trying to do it right the first time) is cleared I would go and sub myself out (if they needed me). ALSO, I said that I couldn't work for below $65/hr for my particular situation. I didn't just throw the dart and hit the 6 and the 5. I did some figuring and derived $65 would be the minimum amount that I would plow for so that I would not lose money. Yes, I could be making more, three to four times more, however with making more I think there is also a bigger risk involved.

I'd be a little nervous in your situation. You said you have between 15 & 20 accounts and you are solo. What happens when your truck has a problem or your plow breaks and is out of commission for a few hours? I hope this never happens to anyone out there but have you thought about what you would do? This is what I mean by bigger risk. Ya, you are making more but what happens if something like this happens, doesn't your contract state that you have to arrive within some time period, yada yada yada? I'm just curious. Perhaps I'm not thinking about this the right way...

I have a few other questions for you if you wouldn't mind answering. I have to admit that I'm having a hard time believing that you are making 200/hr for just residentials. Do you salt/sand? Do you charge your clients by the hour at 200/hr? Or are you stating you are making 200/hr b/c you get 50 bucks for a drive that takes 15 minutes to complete and you do four driveways in an hour? Do you have GL insurance and/or commercial auto insurance? Do you figure in truck payments? Do you figure in maintenance costs of plow & truck? Does your hourly rate included such things as performing the maintenance yourself? Does your rate include time putting the plow on/off truck? In other words, does your 200/hr come after ALL of your expenses, not just the cost of fuel?


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JMR _
> *As stated in this thread often times a persons situation dictates whether they work as a sub or the contract holding contractor. Many of my subs are only available during certain hours of the day, work commitments, family, etc. Therefore for them to make the commitment to a business or residential customer that they can have their property cleared by XX time isn't feasible for them. Therefore they sub plowing snow as there schedule permits. *


I know guys who sometimes, due to the above, can't plow at all during a given storm. So if you have a job that you would get you fired if you missed work and it stops snowing @ 6:00am. You have to work your regular job, but the snows got be pushed or you will loose the account. Therefore the reason to sub. Does this help you understand.

EVERYONES SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

There is a place for all of us in this big picture. I as contractor would not be able to exists without subs.

Subs wouldn't exists without contractors.

IMO this is true in almost anything. If everyone could do it, every person would own there own business and be there own boss.


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DJL _
> *Switchless (a.k.a Pete),
> 
> I think you really need to go back to the previous posts and try and absorb a little more. Not intending to be rude, but you seem to be missing everyone else's points. I said AFTER my one commercial account (yes, i'm very, very small just starting out but trying to do it right the first time) is cleared I would go and sub myself out (if they needed me). ALSO, I said that I couldn't work for below $65/hr for my particular situation. I didn't just throw the dart and hit the 6 and the 5. I did some figuring and derived $65 would be the minimum amount that I would plow for so that I would not lose money. Yes, I could be making more, three to four times more, however with making more I think there is also a bigger risk involved.
> ...


I may be wrong, but I thought most of us talk about our hourly rate as gross, and don't figure in all the other stuff, especially since it's different for each of us. If I'm wrong It's my mistake. Frankly, I just start at $5/minute "on the job", don't add driving time and don't worry about the costs/time that you mention, since I can't change them. One thing for sure is, I don't think about the 5 minutes it takes to hook up the plow, it's just part of doing business. All I do is leave the house 5 minutes earlier than usual.
As far as breaking the plow, I thought all solo guy's have to worry about breaking the plow. However though, in my case it doesn't matter that much since I started snowblowing first and have 3 blowers that will get me through my 15 accounts if I break the plow. Also, some of the accounts I already have are done with only a snowblower, since it's actually faster than plowing.
Last, I have a few friends that would help me out if I broke down.

And, if you don't mind my asking, what's the big risk in making more money???? With all the "costs" you talk about, you're worth $5/minute, and you should charge that. Heck, at 7 mph with my new f250 gas, I need to charge that much.
Hmmmmmmmmm, I guess it's only us Jersey boys bothing to have a good discussion


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## MickiRig1 (Dec 5, 2003)

The going rate for a sub is $ 41 an hour around AKRON Ohio, no wings, no salt shaker. I work every storm I can. I am a Paramedic in real life, so I need to be on an Ambulance on some storms. BUT, I have a paid for truck and do all my own wrenching, so my costs are way low. I pick and chose when I work, but I will be there when I can. The route I do most times takes 40-45 minutes a site so I know he makes twice that on it. But, hey I do no billing or worry about if they pay anytime soon, I get paid at the end of the month.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

Mickirig1: Your statement perfectly fits my reasoning why there is room for and the need for both contractors and subs in this business.


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## MickiRig1 (Dec 5, 2003)

AND I can just about plow with the best of them too. Just cause i part time don't discount me. I love to plow and I got the skill and knowledge to do the job well. I would like nothing better then to spend the winter just plowing. Come-on MEGA Millions!!!


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MickiRig1 _
> *AND I can just about plow with the best of them too. Just cause i part time don't discount me. I love to plow and I got the skill and knowledge to do the job well.*


I would never judge a plower by the fact that they are a sub or a contractor. Full time or part time. I've plowed with part time subs that could plow circles around full time contractors. I've said it before and I'll say it again." There is more to plowing than just pushing snow."


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## james731 (Jan 17, 2004)

Eyesell
where are you located that you get 125 /hr


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## ClintSinger (Dec 9, 2003)

Here in Dartmouth NS I charge between 20 and 45 dollars for a normal length driveway and if walkways or steps/decks are needed to be shovelled it depends on the size and snow, to do industrial accounts we charge 65 dollars /hour plus 40 dollars /hour for traveling each way.
our industrial sites are outside the city core so our rates are not what we could get inside the city itself.


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JMR _
> *As stated in this thread often times a persons situation dictates whether they work as a sub or the contract holding contractor. *


If I didn't say, the helper I have with me in the summer cut lawns has been with me for 10 years. He "likes" staying a sub. I'm lucky to have him. I always offer to set him up with a few lawns on his own, but he doesn't want any headaches, commitments, bill collecting or manditory schedules. IOW, I can understand the same goes for snow removal that for some guy's subbing is just more "their ticket" Hope this helps.
Pete


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

There are some VERY good points brought out by many on this thread. There is one common vibe that I get.....

The Subs that are making $50-65/hr arent telling guys like Switchless and Myself...."Hey TLS, stop having your own contracts, and come out and sub with me, you'll make WAY more money!"

It's the other way around, but the common thread is most of you sub guys have other "Real Jobs" that you are UNABLE to CALL OUT SICK on!?

I know a local Father/Son company (Own two trucks, and one beater as a spare) that regularly Average $20K - 30K a season. Two guys, two trucks in SE PA (where snow isn't a guarantee). That alone is a nice chunk of change for off season work. They never told me what they make on the years with a LOT of snow!


And as for the Liability Insurance, and not needing it if your "just a sub".......Thats just wrong. YOUR plowing with YOUR truck, as an INDEPENDENT Company (Subcontractor) for the CONTRACT HOLDER (Contractor). If your truck strikes the Mother holding her newborn Baby walking out of the Supermarket, the following will/may happen....

The Father/Husband will sue the Supermarket, they, being mostly self insured (read as, they spend money that other companies would spend on insurance, on GOOD Lawyers) will sue the Property Owner of the Shopping Center (who usually pays for the Snow/Ice). He will then sue the Main Contractor, and he will then sue YOU!

Or, if the Fathers Lawyer is smart, he will Sue all of you at once.

Bottom line.....General Liability Insurance.....YOU NEED IT! IT's CHEAP! There is no reason NOT to spend $350/year on it.

Sorry to rant!


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## Eyesell (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TLS _
> *There are some VERY good points brought out by many on this thread.
> 
> Bottom line.....General Liability Insurance.....YOU NEED IT! IT's CHEAP! There is no reason NOT to spend $350/year on it.
> ...


You bet your a**, I would'nt pull the truck out of the drive if I didn't have it. If you in an accident just driving along with your plow on, the other person involved will probably hire Sam Berstien and he'll check to see if your working for another company so they can be sued as well.

We live in a "sue" happy world, it's a shame cause that is what is driving our rates so high. Why do you think we are at the peak of "slip and fall" attorneys, everybody is getting sued.

Always keep in mine the old CYA rule and you 'll never go wrong...COVER YOUR ASS !!


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TLS _
> *There are some VERY good points brought out by many on this thread.  *


Hey Tommy, guess we can't mowpayup . Seriously though, it's taken a while, but 90% of my customers understand I have a full time job and I unless it snows enough that I don't have to go to work, I'll only get to their drive ASAP.
I guess what I'm saying is, if you are a "go getter", even though your hours are limited, some of you guys can spend a little effort and "search out" customers that can tolerate having their drive done when "you" have time. Older/retired people are good for this, since they usually never "have to" get out.
Naturally, there'll always be a place for Subs.
Pete


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

> _Originally posted by Switchless _
> * Older/retired people are good for this, since they usually never "have to" get out.
> *


That's because they're in _ MY _ Supermarket the day before buying enough "supplies" to last through the next Iceage!

It hasn't happened that often, but when it snows, and the Supermarket has me scheduled, they know I'll be ......ummm......SICK!!  No hassles so far, and over the years, I've become more and more important there.

Thing is, if its snowing bad enough to plow, the store is basically dead. More employees than shoppers.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

*just spend the $350 on GL, YEAH RIGHT!!*

Switchless

Thanks for clearing things up. So you do have others working/subbing for you and you have three snow blowers. That explains a lot. I was just worried I was doing something entirely wrong with my pricing and could be getting double what I'm getting. But if the 175/200 number doesn't include everything then I'm in the same ballpark. I don't want to be called a lowballer or anything like that. Sounds like you have a nice business going, that's great!

TLS,

I have to disagree with your statement about going out to get GL b/c it's cheap. Maybe it's totally different in other areas but here in jersey automobile insurance is so damn high. After all we have the most people per square mile than any other state! I'm sure this correlates to more motorists and more accidents, hence more lawyer scum (not all lawyers just the ambulance chasers!).

Anyways, $350 for GL insurance, HOLY CRAPOLA is that cheap! With that being said it is very difficult to compare insurances b/c everyone has different deductibles, aggregate amounts, per occurrence amounts and the like. My lawn business is also my plow business. However, the GL insurance for my lawn/landscape services is already around $2.5k/yr. Now my commercial auto is another $2.5k/yr. Guess what??? In order to be covered for slip/fall accidents we have to take out a "rider" on our GL ins. for this I get slammed with around $1k for that. If I didn't have the GL through the lawn business it would've cost me around $3-3.5k just for slip/fall GL ins.!!!! All in all I'm paying around $6k per year in insurance alone!!!

TLS wrote:

"Bottom line.....General Liability Insurance.....YOU NEED IT! IT's CHEAP! There is no reason NOT to spend $350/year on it."

I agree with you need it, but I TOTALLY DISAGREE with it being cheap just spend the $350/yr on it. At that rate do you have 1M coverage per occurrence up to a certain amount? I pay about triple that for a rider on my GL insurance for my lawn care business. Consider yourself lucky. This just goes to prove discussing pricing on this site is horrible b/c everyone has different situations and you can hardly ever compare apples to apples.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Erie Insurance

$1M-$2M Agg. $200 ded. TOTAL YEARLY PREMIUM = $367.00

I didn't think GL insurance varied by location? I know Auto does.

BTW, my Commercial Auto policy is $689/year for each truck.


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## jsaunders (Jan 28, 2003)

As i said earlier I make (gross) $175-200 per hour, after deducting fuel. Cmerland wrote a long post ( slamming me) about all of the other expenses involved. Yes I do have payments, ins,......... but as Pete said ' How many people are posting $#### with everything deducted?' So Cmerland whats your NUMBERS?
The way I see it fuel is easy to deduct from the gross figure. Yes, I'm probably making less than$100 per hour with all deductions but I'm not going to waste my time to do all the math. Any ways the money I make landscaping pays the bills in the winter, ins is payed in full when the bill arrives in the beginning of the season, So plowing is good, easy(at times) extra money.
This thread has people upset about the money contractors vs subs make. Now everyone agrees contractors will make more money, yet there the ones who get all of the headaches, calls, billing, bidding.......... With the subs there ins't a worry about these things. Now i'm NOT BASHING subs at all, I think $65 hour is per good around here working for the town/ is 30-40 per hour. If I had the extra guys and DIDN'T have the work I would be happy to sub them out for $65 hour. Working for 30/40 hr is where people aren't aware of the money that is coming in/being payed out. HOW do you turn a profit after expenses? 
Now subbing works for some as posted and for others (myself) it doesn't. I wouldn't plow snow for $65 hr in my truck unless I had no other work- even then I would think about trying to pick up 2-3 $25 driveways and make the $65 phr in 15 to 25 mins. 
Sorry about rambling- this is a good thread. Joel


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## jsaunders (Jan 28, 2003)

My commercial ins is about $2500 per year tops. This includes plowing,landscaping and full coverage on my 00 f350 and the 02 f450. I've never hit anything while plowing in 10 years but I did slide my truck into a telephone pole a year or 2 ago which caused $10k worth of damage. I wouldn't plow without coverage- there's to much for me to lose. Joel


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## crashz (Jan 12, 2004)

Insurance has me confused a little. I'm looking to possibly sub because I love to plow and could use the extra cash. Now if I decided to plow with my truck which has full coverage (liability and collision) with regular non-commercial plates, am I covered? For $50 - $65 per hour and like 5 -10 storms per season, I couldn't see paying for contractors insurance. Just want to be one of those weekend warriors (even though 5 years ago I was laughing at guys like me) who throw a plow on his 1/2 ton and make a few bucks. 

For me giving up my job as an engineer isn't possible. So subing a little work here a there looks attractive.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

TLS,

Those numbers are really good, 1100 total. Wish I could get insurance that cheap or even near it! Like I said b-4 I'm around 6k for everything: around $20k in equipment coverage (damage, stolen, etc.), comp & collision for truck, riders for comp/liability for two trailers, GL with 1M per occurrence and 3M aggregate, and a rider for slip/fall that adds to my GL. My deductibles are between 250 and 1000 depending on what it is.

I'm making money but could be making much more if I could save on the darn insurance costs. My business needs to generate $6k just to pay the insurance off every year. It's really rough for me being my first year. 

BTW, Philly is a nice place to visit especially by the waterfront. I like to take a trip once a year down, well for me across to their.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

I have just recently check with my Ins agent and this is my understanding. Your standard insurance on your truck covers you as long as your NOT plowing for $$$. You MUST add plowing coverage to you vehicle if you are plowing for $$$. This will give you coverage if you damage your vehicle, someone elses vehicle or property when you are plowing. It does NOT cover you if someone slips and falls on the property you removed the snow on. General Liability insurance is what you need for this and should be a MUST for the contractor. To answer your question does a sub need GL coverage above and beyond their vehicle when plowing coverage? My ins. agent says NO. This may also vary with ins. carriers. Flame suit now on, fire away guys.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

Crashz,

I believe, but don't quote me on this, your insurance policy will NOT cover you. I would verify everything w/ your insurance company. Be careful b/c your insurance may be null/void if they find out you got in an accident with a plow on. Some insurance (non-commercials) will allow you to have a plow as long as you are doing it for personal use (i.e. not making any money on it).

On the other hand, when I subbed I had commercial plates and commercial auto but I didn't have GL insurance. I guess after reading a lot of these posts I was taking a big risk. However, I can honestly say the guy I was subbing for was sued a bunch of times, he told me the stories. I was never, not once, contacted for any reason. My auto policy says I'm covered by them for any & all damage caused directly from my truck and/or plow, which is considered part of the truck. It was a 1/2 ton also. I've since gotten a 3/4 ton.


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## SteveVB (Oct 7, 2003)

Interesting stuff.

Im a one truck sub- I get $70/hr.

Around DC the rates seem to be $65 -70 hr- havent heard of anyone to $75 yet, but soon. More than a few contractors talk about how difficult it is getting to find trucks/reliable people and equip. New parking lots are paved just about every day around here so demand grows and supply is limited, plenty of companies around to service, but snow plowing is subbed by just about everyone and the pool of sub contractors seems to be limited or shrinking. May not be unrealistic to see end of season bonus payments for showing up- no breakdowns things like that.... just some thoughts/ observations. 

My expenses are few, but when I was deciding on whether I was going to get back into subbing I did a few quick calcs.

I based this on 60hrs a year 

Plow cost over 5 years $1/hr $3000/3000hrs
additional insurance $2/hr 
fuel $3/hr This is looking high
repairs $2.50/hr 150 a season - may be high 
hook-up prep time $6/hr 1hr per storm x 6

So I basically get about $55/hr to drive my truck. 

My responsibilities are limited- I show up, I fill out the job sheets, I turn them in - I get paid. Period. 

I dont have to worry about generating business, watching the weather, deciding on what equipment -who to use where, pleasing multiple customers, subs not showing, subs breaking down, slip/fall liability, billing, no worries about payment- making payments. 

These are just the costs I attribute to plowing- My truck and insurance-repairs etc are already accounted for with my primary business. I would pay these costs whether the truck is sitting in the garage, or on the road. 

My numbers are my numbers - anyone considering any type of business/investment needs to look at what they have- what they need- and what they want to do.


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## crashz (Jan 12, 2004)

Thanks guys. 

I've got a lot to discuss with my insurance carier I think. Don't want to get in over my head with "overhead". I started a thread about purchasing a Bobcat in the Heavy Equipment section. I wanted it for my own use and as a sub. Wonder if I'll need general liability with that? My guess now would be yes. I think I'll need commercial insurance coverage on my truck, commercial registration, general liability for the skidsteer and probably insurance on the machine. All that may be too much just for a part time bobcat service. 

There is a lot more issues to think about and take care of before entering the residential and commercial service markets. When working for my father I just took it for granted. We worked and the customer paided. It's just not that simple!


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

First of all, Commercial Auto Insurance isn't that much more than personal. Just watch, as multiple policy discounts don't coincide through Personal and Commercial, at least not through Erie  

Second of all, General Liability does not go by your equipment. Only an Inland Marine/Contractors Equipment policy needs to know what equipment you have and its value.

The GL policy will want a general scope of the work you'll be doing.....IE: Landscaping, Snowplowing, etc. And they will want to know your "exposure" or amount of $$$ you make from these proprietorships. This is where you down play and don't give out any more info than is ABSOLUTELY necessary. I was asked if I would be plowing any 7-11 or McDonalds, etc. I said "NO!" He said, "Oh, Ok then here is your price". I plow factories and a Church. Factories have approx 30-40 cars, and church has maybe 100 parking spots x 3 services, ....etc. So no BIGGIE on the high traffic scale, which is what he wanted to know. How much "exposure" I'd be having.


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## ratlover (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TLS _
> *First of all, Commercial Auto Insurance isn't that much more than personal. *


Just about double :crying:


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

TLS,

Again, that is your situation crossing over from res to com I doubled my insurance, and this was with the same carrier. Also, I'd be careful about only stating what is absolutely necessary, I wouldn't want to be found in a situation where my insurance carrier turns around and says "you aren't covered for that, you should've read your 50 page insurance document that we send you every year for exactly what and what your aren't covered for." Just my $0.02


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

> _Originally posted by DJL _
> * you should've read your 50 page insurance document that we send you every year for exactly what and what your aren't covered for." Just my $0.02 *


I do/did/always will, but mine (sitting in front of me) is only 15 pages long.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Also, General Liability is General Liability, its your "exposure" that generates your premium. Not being "totally" open about your FULL exposure, or if your "exposure" changes mid season is their problem not yours.

Say I take in $20K a year, and you take in $2K a year.

My premium is say $2000/yr

And yours is say $200/yr

Coverage is EXACTLY the same, just that one has more "exposure" than the other.

You back into a light pole at YOUR lot, and I back into a light pole at MY lot, coverage is the SAME.

Make any sense?


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

*Re: just spend the $350 on GL, YEAH RIGHT!!*



> _Originally posted by DJL _
> *Switchless
> 
> Thanks for clearing things up. So you do have others working/subbing for you and you have three snow blowers. That explains a lot. I was just worried I was doing something entirely wrong with my pricing and could be getting double what I'm getting. But if the 175/200 number doesn't include everything then I'm in the same ballpark. I don't want to be called a lowballer or anything like that. Sounds like you have a nice business going, that's great!
> ...


And I'm sure your business is great, too. I've been at this for 20 years, and have be fine tuning it all the time. Actually, we've got a small group of us that tries to stay in touch and offers each other's services when we don't have the right equipment. One friend has a larger backhoe, the other has a small kobota, another has a 13 yard dump, I have mowers also, and we all have plows. 
Pete


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

If I'm not mistaken that would be your commercial vehicle insurance that would take care of that damage. Not your general liability. I have both policies in front of me and I'm trying to read them carefully, since this discussion is now peaking my interest more than ever. Damage done by the vehicle is covered by auto insurance. Slips & falls by GL.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

I also checked my policy states revenue at 27K, 2 mil GL coverage, premium $432,I think pretty reasonable


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

OK, then change lightpole to .....Slip and fall.

What I'm getting at is that the PREMIUM price has nothing to do with amount of coverage, if all else is the same.

PREMIUM price is determined by "exposure" and $ amount earned.


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JMR _
> *Damage done by the vehicle is covered by auto insurance. Slips & falls by GL. *


And possibly "slips and falls" may be "taken care of" by Vinnie and Joey , if the customer is not overly nice about things
 .........if you catch my drift
Pete


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

Furthermore, if you have a properly written contract, and are doing your job correctly, the GL is just a backup to cover your a$$. The property owner will be the one with the exposure, his GL should cover the slips & falls. Your GL is just additional coverage for your butt.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

*wow this is a grea thread*

It started discussing subbing now it is into insurance, sorry to the original post person.

JMR,

Yes, I agree with your statement about the contract covering your butt, that is a very good point also. If it's one thing you learn from this site it's to CYA!

TLS,

I just took out my ins contract and it's in front of me. I counted 52 pages if I count front and backs of the ones with writing. Then I was sent another 9 pages on how they can audit me or something like that I guess to verify what my "exposure" is???? I'm still not sure what exactly you meant by "exposure" though? Sorry, but if you wouldn't mind could you try and explain it a little better? Perhaps I'm paying for something I shouldn't. Heck, if I could lower my rates by a few hundred that's a few bucks back in my pocket. Thanks. It is much appreciated.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

In my GL contract, I believe exposure is determined by the gross dollars of revenue. I have no exclusions as to the type(ie gas stations, shopping malls, residential, etc) properties as to which I can perform snow removal.The only thing my insurance company ever audits is payroll to determine and make adjustments to my work comp ins. I suppose other types of audits are possible. I guess it might depend on your carrier.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

After thinking about it, the amount of exposure is increased the more you gross. Therefore it is a good basis for ins companies to go by. The more you gross, the more lots you plow, the more lots you plow the more exposed you are. I hope that makes sense and clarifies things.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

JMR,

Well, if I wanted strictly residential for a rider to my GL ins policy then it would less than half of the $1k policy that I have now, about $400. Perhaps if I tell them I'm not servicing gas stations or large commercial lots like 'home ripoff' or 'blowes' then I will be able to save a few bucks. I dunno, is that what "exposure" is. The amount I'm going to be exposed to more and more traffic flow during snow conditions? I'm trying to target commercial places like small office complexes, mom & pop stores, and residential drives. I wouldn't be able too, at this point in time, to handle anything larger.


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

Yes,

Tell your agent that you generally make $x a season doing whatever it is you do. A portion of that income will include snowplowing. Tell him what types of places you plow. If you plow 7-11's , McD's, Gas Stations, etc, then TELL them. If you DON'T, then tell him what you DO in fact do. Don't sell it up. Be truthfull, but DON'T Brag or boast about business. I hear guys all the time boasting about this or that, how much they make here or there.......THAT'S the stuff you DON'T want to tell an Insurance Agent.

Exposure is money earned as well as the places you earn it from. Chances are, my Agent was doing me a favor by asking me what types of places I plow. Him, possibly knowing the business, realizes that a LARGE percentage of slip and falls occur at 7-11's, McD's, Gas Stations, etc. And that if I DON'T plow these "HIGH TRAFFIC" or "HIGH EXPOSURE" places, he will not see any great deal of claims through him. So he sets me up with a lower premium. Less exposure, less chance of an accident happening.....In theory anyway.


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## DJL (Oct 28, 2003)

TLS,

Thanks. I'm going to speak with my agent next week. She is really nice and will let me know exactly what the story is. I'll try and explain this "exposure" thing to here and see what she says. I was just alarmed by everyone else's rates.

Hopefully with all the rumors of snow for this coming Sunday in my area I will make so much money that I can say to my agent "would you like to charge me more since the snow falling is better than money growing on trees?"


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## plowman777 (Dec 15, 2002)

Switchless...

i seem to have about the same pricing as you do in NJ.
i get about $50 for 15 minute driveway. the time often varies and i vary the price with that....anyway.....

question is. what would you charge for a driveway that takes 45minutes? the hourly/ minute rate seem to go out the window on the bigger jobs. i cant imagine charging $150.00...usually go about $80.00


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## Switchless (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by plowman777 _
> *Switchless...
> 
> i seem to have about the same pricing as you do in NJ.
> ...


Well for me, like cutting grass or doing leaf work, my price is the same no matter how long I work or what job I do. In other words, if I'm gonna try to make $200/hour on smaller drives, then I still get the same rate for larger drives.
I probably would knock off 5% because I'm not losing drive time, if I was doing 5 smaller accounts. 
I remember with the big storm last year and I was still just snowblowing, all the drives took twice as long to do. I charged by the time it took, and it turned out to be the same as the plow guy's do their drives, which they charged double for because they came twice for each drive. 
Pete


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## jhook (Jan 24, 2004)

Personally I don't work by the hour. I have new equipment and 12 years experience. I can do stuff with my pickup that would make a newbie's jaw drop. I will work by the season or by the push.

When it is all said and done, my average take on a snowfall will be an average of $130 per hour for my truck. I have a driver in another truck ($15 /hr) and a broker ($50 /hr). At the end of the day, I will average an income just over $100 /hr /truck I send out.

One thing that I found makes a BIG difference is I send out a guy in his own car with a shovel to do all my sidewalks - both residential and commercial. One thing I will NOT do is let my pickup sit there empty and do something that I can pay someone $15 /hr to do - shovel. It is not worth the time. Time is money. 

Personally, I make my best money doing driveways. I can easily do 10 an hour. I have enough work around town that I have no travel time between jobs so that makes a big difference.

I pay my sub the whole time he is out - not just the plowing time

Hope that helps.


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## poncho62 (Jan 23, 2004)

I know that you guys need to make money to pay for your equipment etc. Me on the other hand treat my plow as a toy, and my plowing as a hobby. Its just an old Blazer and 6ft Meyer plow.
I used to plow to make money, but in this neck of the woods (Toronto, Canada) there isn't enough snow most years to make good money at it. 

I will do most driveways for $10 to $15. It pays my gas and any breakages.

I make good money at what I do where I work, so don't need the money. It's like having a Tonka toy to play with at 51 years old.

I have had a plow for the last 20 years, off and on. At 1st I tried to make money at it, but I don't like to HAVE to do it if I don't want to.


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## legoconstruct (Nov 17, 2003)

im in nyc i figure $1000 per hour per truck for total gross
if a 200'x200' lot takes 15 minute its 250
i dont count driving time to and from.
subs get 100 for plow truck and 75 for skid steer


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

*legoconstruct*

$1,000 per truck per hour????? Doubt it. Efen if a property owner did pay you $250 to clear a lot that is 200 X 200, you are not going to get that every hour of every storm. Or, is that the only lot you have and it takes you 15 minutes to do the lot with a 10 foot blade going 60 miles an hour?

If you pay subs $100.00 per hour, I will send you my entire fleet. You can pay me the $100.00 an hour and I will turn around and pay them my typical $60.00 an hour.

It's funny, but your $75.00 per hour for a skid steer seems a bit too low.


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

Plow Meister: I'm with you. I know prices are high in NYC, but 1K and hour. At that rate that would make my biggest lot on a 6" snow $12,000 plus walks & sand & salt. Count me in too. I can't imagine making or charging that much in my part of the country.


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## Mdirrigation (Dec 12, 2003)

I have a friend that got into plowing , all he wanted to do was bill by the hour with a 2 hour minimum. He went after small lots. He made good money on small storms , he was in and out. The 2 hour minimum backfired on him when he plowed a lot in 20 minutes , it was still snowing , the customer told him if he had a 2 hour minimum than he wants that truck on his lot for the 2 hours he is paying for. The next season he charged by the push.


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## plowman777 (Dec 15, 2002)

not that i ever believed $1000/ hr but just the sub rate to his supposed billing rate, tells you something is fishy. no market pays the owner 10 times the sub rate....sorry not buying it (he said $100 driveways were the min rate in our area also on another thread) i guess he sells houses for min $1,000,000 also as a side venture.


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## legoconstruct (Nov 17, 2003)

WELL US CITY SLICKERS ARE A BUNCH OF IDIOTS I GUESS, LIKE I SAID BEFORE THAT IS ACTUAL PLOWING TIME, NOT DRIVING TIME SO IF IT TAKES YOU 15 MINUTES TO PLOW A LOT AND 1/2 HOUR TO GET THERE THEN YOU ONLY MADE 250 FOR 45 MINUTES.
WE HAVE 17 ACCOUNTS IT TAKES TWO TRUCK AND SKID STEER AND AVERAGE OF 10 HOURS TO CLEAN UP . PLUS THE JOBS THE SUBS.
WE BILL PER INCH NOT PER HOUR. 2"TO 5" 250 , 5.1" TO 8"450 
ETC. BECAUSE AROUND HERE IT TAKES LONGER TO PLOW MORE SNOW.
AS FOR SENDING YOUR TRUCKS OUT EAST TO WORK ILL GLADLEY HIRE YOU FOR NEXT SEASON JUST LET ME KNOW IN ADVANCE SO I CAN LINE UP MORE CONTRACTS.
PLOW MEISTER FLY ME OUT AND PUT ME UP IN A NICE HOTEL AND 
GIVE ME A LOT ABOUT ONE ACRE, A GOOD TRUCK AND PLOW AND SOME SNOW I WILL PLOW IT IN 15 OR LESS.
TIME IS MONEY.
AND I DO THIS FOR THE MONEY NOT THE FUN.
AS FOR SKID STEER , ITS SLOWER THAN A PLOW AND THAT INCLUDES ALL DRIVE TIME FOR SUBS NOT PLOW TIME.
ON DRIVEWAYS 100 MINUMUM IS A MUST, IT USUALLY NOT A BIG JOB AND YOU WASTE A LOT OF TIME STUCK IN TRAFFIC GOING FROM PLACE TO PLACE.
SO THAT LITTLE DRIVEWAY CAN END UP TAKING YOU AN HOUR OR MORE TO DO. BESIDES THE PEOPLE ARE PAYING FOR A SERVICE WE WRAP UP ALL OUR CONTRACTS IN OCTOBER, YOU SIGN AND WE TAKE CARE OF THE SEASON.
LIKE SOMEBODY ELSE SAID YOU HAVE TO STOP LOW BALLING JOBS.
LIABILITY INSURANCE, FUEL, MAINTAINENCE.
WHAT IF YOU FRY A $3000 TRANNY OR TEAR UP A TIRE OR BLOW A HOSE ON YOUR MACHINE. WHO PAYS FOR THAT? $60 PER HOUR?
THATS ALL FOR NOW. GREG


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

Whatever


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## JMR (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by legoconstruct _
> [B
> GIVE ME A LOT ABOUT ONE ACRE, A GOOD TRUCK AND PLOW AND SOME SNOW I WILL PLOW IT IN 15 OR LESS.
> TIME IS MONEY.
> . GREG [/B]


No need to yell. I've been plowing for 16 years, 1 acre lot in 15 min.. That I have to see

Snowing like crazy now. Got to get to bed soon. I've got a 2am wake up call.payup Their calling for 6-10"


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## TLS (Jan 31, 2000)

legoconstruct,

Your paying your subs just above average at $100, but are you paying them to drive too? Since you don't figure YOUR hourly rate including drive time, do you figure it for your subs?

$75/hr is WAY too low for a skid Steer. Period. I don't care HOW slow they are speed wise, they're a $30K+ machine that can do things that trucks CANNOT. There may be subs standing in line to plow with a truck, but your not gonna find ANYONE willing to sit in a Skid Steer for $75/hr.

While I've never grossed anywhere NEAR $1000/hr, you really can't -NOT- figure in drive time. Most of us here simply take when we leave the house until we return to the house when were done. Take that amout of hours and divide it into our gross Dollar amount.

Lets see _THOSE_ figures now!


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## Plow Meister (Oct 16, 2001)

I wanted to respond with greater verbage earlier but wifey wanted to go get movies for tonight while I am out pushing white stuff 

No way is anyone here grosing $1,000 per truck per hour. I do gross that much but it is with 15 trucks. Then, I have to pay drivers and gas. I don't want to include insurance and advertising an other overheads since that is kind of a given. I consider myself to be an average company. I don't overcharge. I don't underestimate. I think I am like 99% of the rest of you in terms of pricing.

As far as a skid steer goes, I can sometimes plow a lot FASTEr with a skid than with a truck. I had to rent a John Deere skid last year to help service a large contract. I had a 12" box on it. The Deere also had 2 speeds. Kinda fast and WOAH! (I was in woah! most of the time ) I made some serious piles with that machine.

As far as the acre of land debate... With 2-4" of average snow on the ground and no poles or obstructions, it would still take most anyone at least 1/2 hour.

Maybe in "Legoland", you can get that kind of coin and work at the speed of light, but not here.


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## Stan (Nov 28, 2003)

So its been almost 8 years since this thread has started. Overhead has risen, what has changed?


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## bskiball (Sep 5, 2009)

The irony is that prices are less than they were then eight years ago. I may lose a job I've been doing for that same price for the last five years, whithout even one complaint. All about cheep now days.


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## 01PStroke (Sep 9, 2011)

Read through this entire thing.. and I'm still confused. Do you need GL insuance to sub? I know I would need a "snow plow" rider on top of my regular auto insurance.. but what else?


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## Stan (Nov 28, 2003)

01PStroke;1306440 said:


> Read through this entire thing.. and I'm still confused. Do you need GL insuance to sub? I know I would need a "snow plow" rider on top of my regular auto insurance.. but what else?


It all depends if the person or company requires it.


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## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Anywhere from 125$ to $250 depending on the equipment, account, etc for during storm service... Might sound high, but I keep my operation efficient enough (acres per hour that we can handle) that I still come in rather competitive on most bids. My shoveling rate is only 35$ though. During business hours snow stacking is cheaper as well, $75-$130 depending if its a tri axle, skid, or loader.


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## Stan (Nov 28, 2003)

merrimacmill;1308503 said:


> Anywhere from 125$ to $250 depending on the equipment, account, etc for during storm service... Might sound high, but I keep my operation efficient enough (acres per hour that we can handle) that I still come in rather competitive on most bids. My shoveling rate is only 35$ though. During business hours snow stacking is cheaper as well, $75-$130 depending if its a tri axle, skid, or loader.


Just curious...how do you calculate your shoveling to the customer, by the hour or square footage?


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