# How much to charge for salting



## MI Green

I have never really don't salting i am curious what you guys charge to salt parking lots that are 1/4-1/2 acres. I think rock salt is like $50 or $60 a ton if I remember right. Also how much do you use?


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## BC Handyman

general rule of thumb is 1 ton/acre


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## MI Green

BC Handyman;1645216 said:


> general rule of thumb is 1 ton/acre


That's more than I imagined... So if I charged $100-$150 just for salting? I am aming on the high side with these properties.


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## Wayne Volz

*charging for salt*

We charge a flat rate for truck, spreader and labor plus material.

We generally bid at approximately 12 pounds per 1,000 square feet for sodium chloride.


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## MI Green

Wayne Volz;1645309 said:


> We charge a flat rate for truck, spreader and labor plus material.
> 
> We generally bid at approximately 12 pounds per 1,000 square feet for sodium chloride.


That's 1/4 ton an acre. That's a big difference


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## JD Dave

MI Green;1645314 said:


> That's 1/4 ton an acre. That's a big difference


Hard to compare Mi to KY.


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## MI Green

JD Dave;1645315 said:


> Hard to compare Mi to KY.


Hahahahahah yaaaaaa just saw that


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## Wayne Volz

*Something to think about*

I don't want to get anything started but before you question the rate of application please take time to check the science of the ice melter and the application rates behind the specific ice melter you may want to utilize. Then add your experience factor to each individual event.

Realizing that there are many variables that change the rate of application a contractor makes during a storm, there are certain givens that can be in place by a contractor to help establish a baseline for the initial rate of application. A few include current ground temperature, expected air temperature, customer expectations and ice melter type.

For years as an industry we have over applied sodium chloride as well as other ice melting products. Recent research by Universities as well as the Morton Salt Company, Akzo Salt, Peters Chemical and many others have tried to help contractors get a better handle on application rates of specific materials.

The common solution for most contractors is to simply apply more product when more was not necessarily the right answer. Based on the ice melter type (sodium chloride, calcium, magnesium, CMA, and so on) the best choice may be to choose a product that will work at a colder temperature based on the science of the product. The colder the surface and air temperature, the slower certain products work. Thus as contractors, they generally apply more of the same verses changing product choices. I realize these alternative product choices do generally cost more money to purchase, the application rate per acre is generally less than sodium chloride so the actual cost to make the application is reduced. Not to mention that the other product will work faster at a colder temperature and give your client a better and faster result. Thus helping to reduce the possibility of a slip-and-fall accident.

With all due respect to you guys, the fact that a contractor is in Kentucky, Michigan, Iowa, Ohio or any where else has no bearing on the starting point for bidding the job as it pertains to application rates. The determining factors are the expected variables during and after the event.

Here's a copy of one study (as there are many of them out there) that clearly address the general over application of material by many contractors because they simply don't know what they don't know. Thus the cycle of over application continues year after year property after property. Yes there are times for heavier application rates just as there are times for lighter application rates. The key to success is knowing the difference and applying them to your individual business.

The next thing to consider after deciding what your application rate per acre will be based on the material choice is to decide what type of spreader you can use to best calibrate and apply the actual rate of the application. Let's talk about that later.

*Here's one study from Michigan *

CONTACT:
Katie Feltz
MSLGROUP
312-861-5256
[email protected]
Morton Salt, Michigan Technological University Study Uncovers
Optimal Rates for Ice Melt Application
New Mobile Tool Leverages Findings to Provide Real-Time Application Recommendations
CHICAGO ± To date, there has been no definitive direction of how best to manage commercial snow and ice removal with the use of ice melters, which has led to potential over-application and misuse of safety-enhancing features of ice melt. Morton Salt, Inc. has set out to change that 
by partnering with Michigan Technological University to study ice melter performance levels in real world conditions. Through this research, Morton Salt has found how the interaction of surface temperature, melter type and application rate can be maximized for efficacy, profitability and safety.
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There are so many differing views in the industry regarding the proper product solution and application rate that snow professionals unknowingly over-apply product, creating unnecessary environmental runoff and reducing their profitability,´VDLG1LOHV+\VHOO0RUWRQ6DOW¶VGLUHFWRURI
ice melt SURGXFWPDQDJHPHQW³,WZDVLPSRUWDQWIRUXVWREULQJVRPHREMHFWLYLW\WRWKHVH
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The study revealed:
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produces measurable melting. A deicer must also be accompanied by mechanical removal (i.e. plowing) to produce bare pavement.
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deicer are needed to produce bare pavement. A salt/calcium chloride blend is the most cost-effective deicer at these application rates.
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becomes equivalent to that of FDOFLXPDQGPDJQHVLXPFKORULGHV,Q³W\SLFDO´
temperatures above 20°F, salt is the most cost-effective deicer.
A blend of rock salt and CaCl2
was found to be the most cost-effective and productive 
deicer in above 5°F temperatures. At $63 per application (based on a 1,000-square-foot 
lot at 18 ± )VXUIDFHWHPSHUDWXUHLW¶VOHVVWKDQKDOIWKHFRVWRIFDOFLXPFKORULGHDQG
magnesium chloride and nearly half the quantity of rock salt needed to produce the same results.
Despite claims to the contrary, some deicers tested worse, or equivalent to URFNVDOW,W¶V
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third parties to ensure product integrity and customer satisfaction.³The average temperature in even the most extreme U.S. climaWHVGRHVQ¶WRIWHQIDOOEHOow 10
degrees Fahrenheit,´+\VHOOVDLG³6RWKHUHVHDUFKVKRZHGXs that a blend of rock salt and calcium chloride will address standard melting needs during the season and keep snow removal 
a profitable business. We found that using only extreme temperature deicers can result in undue damage and unnecessary costs.´
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well in sub-zero temperatures, but provide environmental, pet and people safety in normal winter conditions while clearing snow.
The study was conducted in Houghton, Mich., providing researchers an ideal testing environment. Key testing variables identified were: surface temperature, melter type and application rate. To address each variable, the team selected surface temperature ranges to 
measure melting performance in extreme and average winter temperatures using sodium 
chloride (rock salt), calcium chloride, calcium chloride/rock salt blend and magnesium chloride.
Initial high, medium and low application rates were selected and adjustments were made during 
the course of the study in the case of over or under-melting.
A controlled laboratory test was performed on each material at each temperature range as a 
control and comparison point. The study also consisted of field testing, which validated melting 
performance in real-world settings. 
³7KLVUHVHDUFKSURved to be incredibly valuable in combating some common ice melt application 
myths,´ said Russell Alger, director, Institute of Snow Research at the Keweenaw Research 
Center at Michigan Technological University³:KDWZH¶YHVKRZQLVWKDWWKHUHDUHRSWLPDO
deicing products to use in different climates that provide the best results for the greatest return. 
We look forward to conducting more research and testing to bring additional intelligence to the industry
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The results of the research were announced at the 6QRZDQG,FH0DQDJHPHQW$VVRFLDWLRQ¶V
14th annual Snow & Ice Symposium. At the show, Morton Salt also unveiled a smartphone application that leverages the research findings to identify, in real time, the best snow removal tools and application to maximize efficiency and profits. It is available for iPhone and Droid platforms.
For more information about Morton Salt, Inc., Morton ice melter products and the new 
smartphone application, visit www.mortonmelters.com or call 877-912-6358.
About Morton Salt, Inc., a K+S Group Company
Morton Salt, Inc., a Chicago-based company continuing a Morton Salt business dating back to 
1848, is North America's authority on salt and a leading producer of salt for grocery, water 
softening, ice control, agricultural, and industrial uses. Morton introduced the nation to the 
Morton Umbrella Girl and the now-famous slogan, "When It Rains It Pours" in 1914. Since that time, Morton Salt products have graced the shelves of more homes throughout the country than any other brand of salt.


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## Superior to any

BC Handyman;1645216 said:


> general rule of thumb is 1 ton/acre


Thank you, my hat goes off to you, I am being serious and not sarcastic, finally on here with some sense. I am sick of arguing with hack jobs. And yes the scientific answer is a regular rock salt covers 5 ounces to a square yard. There are 4840 square yards in an acre so 4840x5 divided by 16 for ounces in a pound gives you 1512.5 pounds of salt per acre. But that is normal conditions so I agree with Handyman to be on safe side general rule of thumb is 1 ton an acre, what you charge is based on what equipment you got and etc and what you want to charge.

Thanks for listeningussmileyflag


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## Superior to any

MI Green;1645314 said:


> That's 1/4 ton an acre. That's a big difference


Ya according to his quote that is 522.72 pounds which is a almost a third less what my ap rate is. He also used a mortin salt study, which I did not look into and I also do not use Mortin. I personally know this is not correct for the salt I use. I would like to see Wayne, a full acre lot of all pavement have five inches of snow an inch of it compacted by vehicles before my company gets there and then plow the lot, put down 522.72 pounds and come back the next day to a picture perfect lot and see all pavement, if that is the case I will buy your miracle salt from you!!! And if you have swamp land in Florida.

I agree with Handyman, because what I do is for example I will throw down 500 lbs on an acre of dry pavement as a pre treatment. Lets say in a three inch snow storm, I come back and plow the snow lay down a thousand to 1500 pounds, depends on the conditions, so could be close to a ton. I will agree with Wayne that I have done 522.72 pounds on an acre before when the pavement is completely dry and we are only getting a quarter of inch of snow/rain/ice. But for all decent size snow storms I am at 3/4 ton of salt or more. We charge per storm of a certain inches and above, then for any salting under an inch we alter the formulas. Most contractors do not plow unless an inch or more and I do not see 522.72 pounds melting an inch on an acre sorry Wayne.

What I always do which always worked and which the salt manu. suggest doing, I would price it different in your contract. We do almost all seasonal so its factored in. If doing per trip MI, say half inch or under use Waynes formula so a 1/4 ton, up to an inch factor in 1/2 ton to 3/4 ton all major snow storms use between mine and handymans formula, 3/4 ton to a ton. Think about it, a v box spreader can hold up to a ton and a half to two tons for a pick up truck. I can spread a ton no problem on an acre, I also never heard anyone talk about which we have to set up a lot of contracts as a zero snow tolerance which we use way over a ton. So pick what you want and play around with it.


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## Superior to any

MI Green;1645225 said:


> That's more than I imagined... So if I charged $100-$150 just for salting? I am aiming on the high side with these properties.


Your in the ball park, as his mortin study shown a $63.00 application rate of a thousand square feet you would be on the low side. What most small companies around here do is figure out, how many bags of salt they would use at wholesale price and times four for min. price. Which is typical retail, even if you are buying at bulk tons. So for example for a 50lb bag of halite most companies around here charge a min of $12.00 a bag spread. So you spread 12 bags, 600 pounds, they are charging $120.00. I charge more but sometimes this going rate, you have to factor in, vech. depreciation, salters, labor/workers comp./insurance/ gas, the list goes on. But for ball parking your numbers I would say you hit a blind folded home run. Thanks for listening


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## Wayne Volz

*I hear ya*



Superior to any;1648654 said:


> Ya according to his quote that is 522.72 pounds which is a almost a third less what my ap rate is. He also used a mortin salt study, which I did not look into and I also do not use Mortin. I personally know this is not correct for the salt I use. I would like to see Wayne, a full acre lot of all pavement have five inches of snow an inch of it compacted by vehicles before my company gets there and then plow the lot, put down 522.72 pounds and come back the next day to a picture perfect lot and see all pavement, if that is the case I will buy your miracle salt from you!!! And if you have swamp land in Florida.
> 
> I agree with Handyman, because what I do is for example I will throw down 500 lbs on an acre of dry pavement as a pre treatment. Lets say in a three inch snow storm, I come back and plow the snow lay down a thousand to 1500 pounds, depends on the conditions, so could be close to a ton. I will agree with Wayne that I have done 522.72 pounds on an acre before when the pavement is completely dry and we are only getting a quarter of inch of snow/rain/ice. But for all decent size snow storms I am at 3/4 ton of salt or more. We charge per storm of a certain inches and above, then for any salting under an inch we alter the formulas. Most contractors do not plow unless an inch or more and I do not see 522.72 pounds melting an inch on an acre sorry Wayne.
> 
> *Good feedback.* Think we are similar in the thought process.
> 
> The lower rate will not work for an inch of compacted snow that has been driven on with another four inches on top of that where nothing has been applied prior to the event. However, if the lot is either pre-treated with a granular application or sprayed with a liquid application, when you get there to plow the snow it should not be compacted to the pavement and should plow up more efficiently thus requiring less ice melter after plowing.
> 
> I am not stating that approximately 550 pounds is the answer for the entire snow event, because weather conditions will always dictate application rates. I was simply stating that many times the rate of application is way over done by many contractors because they are either selling by the ton or have equipment that they have no idea really how much is being applied and don't really care. I could care a less what a contractor puts down per acre or lane mile. However, what the industry as a whole needs to consider is that I think we are not too far from a lot more regulation similar to those effecting lawn care that are going to require us as commercial contractors to know how much we are applying and to how many square feet we are making our applications. The days of simply blowing out as much as possible are coming to an end.
> 
> I personally think this will be great for the industry. It sure keeps a lot of prostitution out of the lawn application market.
> 
> Our company's rates of application do change based on actual conditions to each event. However, proactive ice melting is always less expensive than reactive ice melting and generally offers your clients better and less expensive results.
> 
> I hope all you guys have a great year and keep thinking. Knowledge is always the key to long term success for us all.


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## TJSNOW

MI Green;1645225 said:


> That's more than I imagined... So if I charged $100-$150 just for salting? I am aming on the high side with these properties.


Let's say u pay $60 a ton for salt.....Do you have a "V" box or a dump to spread it???..That's a cost...Do you have a Truck to put gas in???.Those are both costs..Do you have insurance, so when Johnny no teeth claims to fall on one of your sites??..That's a cost...You gotta know your costs of doing business before you start throwing out numbers...Not to be a Richard..But, the Southern Michigan market is FULL of guys just throwing out numbers...That's why the Market Sucks...


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## JD Dave

BC Handyman;1645216 said:


> general rule of thumb is 1 ton/acre


6-800lbs is closer to avg. If you put an actual ton on 1 acre of pavement after plowing the property owners will be calling for you sweep it back up. There are so many variables to consider when salting. Also pricing varies greatly from area to area plus the rate for a 1/4 acre lot is going to be greater then an 8 acre lot.


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## Mark Oomkes

BC Handyman;1645216 said:


> general rule of thumb is 1 ton/acre


1 ton\acre\season.

That covers the beginning of November or March when the sun is strong, there is a half inch of snow and temps are 30* or the middle of January at 5* and snowing an inch an hour.

At least in this part of MI.

Will 500# of salt create a black and wet acre of pavement? Absolutely, under perfect conditions. Under laboratory perfect conditions.

Will 500# of salt melt the snow and ice off a parking lot that you just got done plowing at 5 AM and people start rolling in at 6 AM and obviously no sun and pavement temp of 15*? No way.

Studies are great. For benchmarks or rules of thumb. Studies don't do you any good under uncontrolled conditions at the mercy of the weather.


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## MI Green

Mark Oomkes;1649181 said:


> 1 ton\acre\season.
> 
> That covers the beginning of November or March when the sun is strong, there is a half inch of snow and temps are 30* or the middle of January at 5* and snowing an inch an hour.
> 
> At least in this part of MI.
> 
> Will 500# of salt create a black and wet acre of pavement? Absolutely, under perfect conditions. Under laboratory perfect conditions.
> 
> Will 500# of salt melt the snow and ice off a parking lot that you just got done plowing at 5 AM and people start rolling in at 6 AM and obviously no sun and pavement temp of 15*? No way.
> 
> Studies are great. For benchmarks or rules of thumb. Studies don't do you any good under uncontrolled conditions at the mercy of the weather.


I did not get the notification that people have replied. I hate using salt when under 25 daytime high out. That's just me. If its colder than that snow is not slippery but with these accounts they want salt no matter the temp.


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## Superior to any

MI Green;1654843 said:


> I did not get the notification that people have replied. I hate using salt when under 25 daytime high out. That's just me. If its colder than that snow is not slippery but with these accounts they want salt no matter the temp.


I honestly can't believe I just read this, do you mind if I use this quote on my web page and I will block out your name and anything relating to you, do I have your permission?

Get back to me at your earliest convenience thanks.


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## MI Green

Superior to any;1655762 said:


> I honestly can't believe I just read this, do you mind if I use this quote on my web page and I will block out your name and anything relating to you, do I have your permission?
> 
> Get back to me at your earliest convenience thanks.


Lol I don't care. Its true what would you rather have? Dry snow powder, or slushed A parking lot? Maybe guys around me don't put enough on.


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## Mark Oomkes

MI Green;1654843 said:


> I did not get the notification that people have replied. I hate using salt when under 25 daytime high out. That's just me. If its colder than that snow is not slippery but with these accounts they want salt no matter the temp.


How long have you been in the industry?


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## MI Green

Mark Oomkes;1655844 said:


> How long have you been in the industry?


Ive only done plowing for a couple of years and this is the first year any commercial properties want salt. So I am not experienced in salt except for sidewalks.


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## MI Green

am I really that out of line? http://www.usroads.com/journals/p/rmj/9712/rm971202.htm From their data the graph says at 30 salt melts 3 times more snow than at 25, but at 25 you still have a quick melting rate. Now at 15 you go from 5min at 25 degrees to 30min 15 degrees. I am not saying I am right but with a daytime high of 25 means its usually 10-15 out at night when we service. So does 1 ton of salt last for the day as it warms up or do you have to reapply to keep it from freezing in the evening? I guess I normally see is a guy applys salt at night when its cold, the salt is melting, cars role in bringing more snow, it all melting till about midday and by 6ish or so it all starts to freeze when it dips to the teens. So in my mind unless its a nice sunny day at that temp why bother throwing salt on the parking lot??


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## kimber750

MI Green;1655890 said:


> So in my mind unless its a nice sunny day at that temp why bother throwing salt on the parking lot??


Because it is our job to maintain a safe environment for our customers. We can't wait until it is sunny and nice to put salt down. All my seasonal contracts are zero tolerance and two of them operate 24 hours a day. If we have to reapply we do.


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## MI Green

kimber750;1655894 said:


> Because it is our job to maintain a safe environment for our customers. We can't wait until it is sunny and nice to put salt down. All my seasonal contracts are zero tolerance and two of them operate 24 hours a day. If we have to reapply we do.


I am not arguing just is the actual effectiveness of salt. If I had a customer that serious I personally would be looking into chloride from what I heave read about it.


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## kimber750

MI Green;1655899 said:


> I am not arguing just is the actual effectiveness of salt. If I had a customer that serious I personally would be looking into chloride from what I heave read about it.


We use calcium flake on walks and bulk on lots. We use an average of 50 tons of bulk a season. It's not that they are serious, they have people coming and going at all times and don't want anyone to fall. Like I said, we use what we have to keep it safe.


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## terrapro

MI Green;1655899 said:


> I am not arguing just is the actual effectiveness of *salt*. If I had a customer that serious I personally would be looking into *chloride* from what I heave read about it.


So you aren't arguing the "effectiveness" of salt but if it called for serious you would use chloride?.....
Not trying to be a dick but you need to keep reading if you don't know what a "chloride" is.

And to answer your original question anywhere from 400lbs per acre to 2000lbs per acre depending on the situation. So if you want to tighten those numbers shoot for 800lbs to 1200lbs per acre.


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## Mark Oomkes

MI Green;1655879 said:


> Ive only done plowing for a couple of years and this is the first year any commercial properties want salt. So I am not experienced in salt except for sidewalks.


THat's what I was guessing.



MI Green;1655899 said:


> I am not arguing just is the actual effectiveness of salt. If I had a customer that serious I personally would be looking into chloride from what I heave read about it.


As terra stated, you have a lot more learning to do before making some of the statements you have.

Start here: Please google exactly what rock salt is--chemical composition--and get back to us.


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## MI Green

terrapro;1655974 said:


> So you aren't arguing the "effectiveness" of salt but if it called for serious you would use chloride?.....
> Not trying to be a dick but you need to keep reading if you don't know what a "chloride" is.
> 
> And to answer your original question anywhere from 400lbs per acre to 2000lbs per acre depending on the situation. So if you want to tighten those numbers shoot for 800lbs to 1200lbs per acre.


I see where Ya all are going with this. The people say rock salt down here they mean sodium chloride and when they say chloride they mean calcium chloride which works down to -25.


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## MI Green

Most of my experence is with gravel parking lots and we actually try to get a good snow packed layer over the gravel and it helps with traction issues if we leave a 1/4 of snow ontop of the hard pack for traction. When it super cold we can take our shoes off and scrape the hardpack and you have great traction. That's why I said what I did because in what I have done why melt what's not trying to melt?


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