# Asking customers for more pay



## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

I was told that I paid my recurring customers seasonal rate. Let's say 375 a winter rate and we are getting more snow (in March) so should I ask them for more and how much?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

No, unless the contract allows it. And if there’s nothing in the contract stating it, chalk it up
As a learning lesson and put a cap or end date on your contracts. 
Increasing prices mid season will piss people off and show them that you failed to do you part in the off season


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> No, unless the contract allows it. And if there's nothing in the contract stating it, chalk it up
> As a learning lesson and put a cap or end date on your contracts.
> Increasing prices mid season will piss people off and show them that you failed to do you part in the off season


Great advice! I'll try to live with the budget till the winter is over and do that next winter . Thanks


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Joys of seasonal contracts. You win some you lose some. When your pricing your Seasonal contracts
Look up average snowfall for your area for the last 5 years. We use an average of 20 events a year . With a 5cm trigger . 
If people want service under that trigger they pay a fee each time. We send out data report each month with the invoice.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

NBRam1500 said:


> Joys of seasonal contracts. You win some you lose some. When your pricing your Seasonal contracts
> Look up average snowfall for your area for the last 5 years. We use an average of 20 events a year . With a 5cm trigger .
> If people want service under that trigger they pay a fee each time. We send out data report each month with the invoice.


That's true and this is my first winter under my business but I have lost the track counting but I'll find it using my google timeline. However I'll assume it's average 20 runs. I'll know better on the next season push .


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

If your worried about the amount of storms. Put a cap on your contract. After x amount of storms they pay a fee per storm . But keep in mind usually with a cap it works both ways . There also a minimum so if we get less than x amount of storms . They get a pro-rated refund.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

How do refund works as I haven't heard of that?


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Been doing this for 6 years and still learning.
Keep a log book , keep track of how long each site takes you. Keep notes of sites that get bad drifts. 
Will help you next year when pricing 
We go around before snow flies and take pictures of each property. That way we know where water shut offs are. Condition of pavement etc


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

What shut off is what I learned in YouTube as I'm curious about it this spring. I was told to do the logbook as I need to do it as I guess I'll fill it all out using my google timeline. The problem is I want to fill out timeline of push timing but driving from places to places is driving me nut as it's like 10 to 20 minutes each... As well as the timing frame for those who expect me to come on timing


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

NBRam1500 said:


> Been doing this for 6 years and still learning.
> Keep a log book , keep track of how long each site takes you. Keep notes of sites that get bad drifts.
> Will help you next year when pricing
> We go around before snow flies and take pictures of each property. That way we know where water shut offs are. Condition of pavement etc


Everyone learns but being 6 years is way ahead of me lol. I been with my boss 8 years but as a shoveler under table. Right now I'm a plow driver of my own


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

You go out and run your route and don't keep track of anything? 
So, at what point did you figure out that you were losing money?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

jonniesmooth said:


> So, at what point did you figure out that you were losing money?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

jonniesmooth said:


> You go out and run your route and don't keep track of anything?
> So, at what point did you figure out that you were losing money?


The only thing he is keeping track of is the travel from job to job.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

BossPlow2010 said:


> No, unless the contract allows it. And if there's nothing in the contract stating it, chalk it up
> As a learning lesson and put a cap or end date on your contracts.
> Increasing prices mid season will piss people off and show them that you failed to do you part in the off season


I agree, you sold them a seasonal contract
At a set price.

Most had a low snow year, anyone with seasonals should be doing just fine.
We're did you go wrong?

One more thing ,
Even with a cap. No Refunds for any reason.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Hydromaster said:


> I agree, you sold them a seasonal contract
> At a set price.
> 
> Most had a dismal year, anyone with seasonals should be doing just fine.
> ...


First mistake without claiming my insurance and also I'm a smoker without a mortgage set in. As well as I have children. So need to settle a better budget for the 2nd year . At least I'm learning from everyone on this site to do better next year. Spring may be around the corner so I should be okay. Toward this im just worried if my budget would last me till landscaping starts.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> I was told that I paid my recurring customers seasonal rate.


Huh???????????



Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> First mistake without claiming my insurance and also I'm a smoker without a mortgage set in.


Huh???????????????????????????

I was confused before I read these statements. Now I'm befuddled.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Have a sammage .... everything will be clearererer .


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SHAWZER said:


> Have a sammage .... everything will be clearererer .


After reading the 2 sentences I quoted, I feel like I had a whole keg of sammiches.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So anyways...I'm still befuddled, so this might be a stupid question. 

But since when is March not part of winter and you think you deserve more money because it's snowing in March? 

Maybe if you were in Florida or the Bahamas I could understand that, but you're in Kannada. 

What are you going to do if it snows in April like it has the last 2 years?


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So anyways...I'm still befuddled, so this might be a stupid question.
> 
> But since when is March not part of winter and you think you deserve more money because it's snowing in March?
> 
> ...


Good question!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> Good question!


Glad you agree.

What is your answer?


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## andersman02 (May 5, 2012)

For us, seasonal is 1 price for entire season or monthly installments w/ set dates, before of after that is subject to per time pricing (you gotta have set dates unless you they pay over 12 months for summer work also) I havent actually charged people before or after those date as when we have had to plow, its been a light year.

We don't do caps, I could see maybe a high dollar commercial but can't really see that for residential.

I would be pissed if someone tried to get more money after we'd agreed upon a price and i paid. Thats how you lose customers


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Glad you agree.
> 
> What is your answer?


Since my contracts didn't have any cap on adding cost after my bidding price. I wouldn't want to upset my customers so I may just have my support to cover my bills for a month. Whish isn't great.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> How do refund works as I haven't heard of that?


A refund is where you give money back to the customer. In the context of a seasonal contract(which I THINK is what your doing) a customer might ask for a refund if it was a low snow year and you didn't service them very many times. I would avoid giving refunds. Make sure the customer knows when you sign them up that even in low snow months/years they will still be expected to pay the full amount, and then write that into your contracts. Do you do contracts currently with your customers?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Find a few of us when we started out doing seasonals ended up with a hobby instead of a job that pays. 

While I don’t like putting caps on the number of times I plow
. that isn’t seasonal that selling a block of plowing( pushes) at a set price. 

I do put in a storm clause,if we should get hit with a big storm I’ve got something where I can get a little more cash to make up for my time. 

Our Contracts run till the end of March any events in April are per push or I will give them a freebie if they sign up for next year and pay the first installment for next season.

Sell sell sell, 
Premium service at a premium price. 
At least half of them should be telling you you’re overpriced.

Jmo and good luck,


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Kinport said:


> A refund is where you give money back to the customer. In the context of a seasonal contract(which I THINK is what your doing) a customer might ask for a refund if it was a low snow year and you didn't service them very many times. I would avoid giving refunds. Make sure the customer knows when you sign them up that even in low snow months/years they will still be expected to pay the full amount, and then write that into your contracts. Do you do contracts currently with your customers?


No I haven't done any refunds as I'm sure that my prices was fair for this year since we didn't get over average. However there was much snow this month. I'm just being prepared for the next winter. As I'm getting a lot of advice here. However I still want to figure how I can complete like 30 contract for 1 driver per snowfall which runs 12 hrs or what else.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Let say one contract was $375 and I give 20 snow pushes that leaves like $18 each run?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> Let say one contract was $375 and I give 20 snow pushes that leaves like $18 each run?


There's idiots around here charging $200-220 for an entire season. Unlimited.

Average number of pushes is around 20. This year has been less...so far. 25 is not unreasonable. '13-'14 we were around 35 if I recall correctly. Many of those same idiots were out back then.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> There's idiots around here charging $200-220 for an entire season. Unlimited.


Do those guys run out of bill money in January instead of March? Or can they not make it past Christmas?


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> Let say one contract was $375 and I give 20 snow pushes that leaves like $18 each run?


Yup that's how that works. Most of the guys on here (including myself) would say that's too low. Sounds like you also feel it's too low. This information will help you prepare for next season. Sounds like you need to raise prices.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Do those guys run out of bill money in January instead of March? Or can they not make it past Christmas?


Depends on if they smoke and have a mortgage.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Depends on if they smoke and have a mortgage.


So our struggle around is that those looks for idiots or snowblower who want to charge less? One snowblower company went bankruptcy in Ottawa... Metro as it left many stuck in the snow.


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## SilverPine (Dec 7, 2018)

I see a few business mistakes here. Everyone has them when they first start. They slow down with time but never go away. All you could do is learn from them and try to limit the damage!


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

SilverPine said:


> I see a few business mistakes here. Everyone has them when they first start. They slow down with time but never go away. All you could do is learn from them and try to limit the damage!


That is obviously true! No one learns overnight but with time.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> So our struggle around is that those looks for idiots or snowblower who want to charge less?


I have no idea what this means.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have no idea what this means.


English is my second language so let me try and reply it again. So our (snow plow drivers) struggles with those customers who are looking for lower prices. Either way they look for snowblower services that charges less. Additional I would assume cause snowblower drivers come from cooperative companies which is larger then sole proprietor small businesses? How this helps?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> English is my second language so let me try and reply it again.


Don't feel too bad - I could name 3 or 4 members on here whose first language is English and their posts are no more comprehensible...


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

There's always someone cheaper.
It takes years to build a good relationship with your customers.
First step, service your contract as you wrote it.
The neighbors will notice when your account is done before their's, better then their's. And they will call you.
You were talking about 10-20 minutes drive between accounts. In a truck, or a slower machine?
You need to tighten that up, target some houses in between, so at least your making money along the way.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> English is my second language so let me try and reply it again. So our (snow plow drivers) struggles with those customers who are looking for lower prices. Either way they look for snowblower services that charges less. Additional I would assume cause snowblower drivers come from cooperative companies which is larger then sole proprietor small businesses? How this helps?


If you are asking if it's an issue to be undercut by cheaper people offering lesser services, then yes. That is in issue for every industry, not just snow removal. You need to sell yourself to the customer on why you are worth more money.

Edit: or what @jonniesmooth said 5 seconds sooner.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

One of the funniest things i see occur in business negotiations is both sides crying poor. One of the best ones i had recently was one of my well to do clients was commenting on the amount of snow we had this year, to which i responded "Yes, we are over our average.."
Him-" Are we on budget?"
Me-"It'll even out in another year.." and i smiled. " I do accept tips..."

Him- Smiling"You should charge more..."
And he closed the door... I still laugh when i think about it.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Mr.Markus said:


> One of the funniest things i see occur in business negotiations is both sides crying poor. One of the best ones i had recently was one of my well to do clients was commenting on the amount of snow we had this year, to which i responded "Yes, we are over our average.."
> Him-" Are we on budget?"
> Me-"It'll even out in another year.." and i smiled. " I do accept tips..."
> 
> ...


Oh yeah? I'm glad you shared this so I can pedict on what the next customer would ask. So did you ask your customers for some more pay to meet budget without having that on your contract?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> How do refund works as I haven't heard of that?


Like kinport suggested, shy away from refunds. A deal is a deal, especially with seasonal agreements. There will be light years with below average plowing, there will be heavy years with above average plowings. After a 3-4 year period it balances out.

How refreshing it is to see a noob actually listening and trying to learn from the advice of others with mulch more experience then they have, as opposed to fighting and rejecting those who don't have the same opinion and thinking as them. Don't ever think you have nothing to learn. Only narrow minded losers think that way.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Eventually about adding salt to the contract ... How much additional cost should that be for residential?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> Oh yeah? I'm glad you shared this so I can pedict on what the next customer would ask. So did you ask your customers for some more pay to meet budget without having that on your contract?


No my customers pay me well. I make out okay. My services are more about relationships than price, when i lose contracts to price I keep the relationship and am always asked back to bid. Some i choose to rebid others i replace.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> Eventually about adding salt to the contract ... How much additional cost should that be for residential?


If you're just hand salting a small sidewalk and a small driveway, $25-$35 for each application would be fair.

You still need to have language in your contract negating your liability to slip and falls...especially if you're going to be spreading deicers.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Luther said:


> If you're just hand salting a small sidewalk and a small driveway, $25-$35 for each application would be fair.
> 
> You still need to have language in your contract negating your liability to slip and falls...especially if you're going to be spreading deicers.


So $35 ch 20 run or the overall seasonal rate?


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> So $35 ch 20 run or the overall seasonal rate?


Sorry, not understanding this. I did see you said English is not you first language. Salting/deicing residential's would be an above and beyond charge in addition to your seasonal plowing agreement.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> So $35 ch 20 run or the overall seasonal rate?


Most of us here don't have seasonal contracts for applying salt. Salt is a separate item. 
Some charge by the amount of salt they apply. I for one do it per application. Sometimes you'll use more salt, other times less. It usually averages out throughout the season. 
There may also be times when you're salting and not pushing snow due to icy conditions, etc. 
As well as tracking your time, you should also be tracking the amount of salt used, so you know for the future. 
You seem to be open to suggestions. This is how you learn. Others are willing to help those who listen to advice. 
FYI, sometimes there's some humor to what some of us post. We're not being degrading. Pushing snow into the garage in your other thread is a pretty good example.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

EWSplow said:


> Pushing snow into the garage in your other thread is a pretty good example.


Oh great, now you tell me. Now how do I get the snow back out of my garage?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> Oh great, now you tell me. Now how do I get the snow back out of my garage?


Word on the playground is that the grill of an SUV works...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

EWSplow said:


> Word on the playground is that the grill of an SUV works...


English isn't my first language so I had to use Google to translate your post. This is what it kicked out.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> English isn't my first language so I had to use Google to translate your post. This is what it kicked out.
> 
> View attachment 201660


I have a blade on my jeep, so I can't argue to which SUV grills can push more snow.


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## Mister Nature Lawn Care (Oct 26, 2019)

Luther said:


> Sorry, not understanding this. I did see you said English is not you first language. Salting/deicing residential's would be an above and beyond charge in addition to your seasonal plowing agreement.


Sorry I mean $35 each time (average 20 runs a winter)


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

cwren2472 said:


> Oh great, now you tell me. Now how do I get the snow back out of my garage?


Garage heater...


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Luther said:


> Sorry, not understanding this. I did see you said English is not you first language. Salting/deicing residential's would be an above and beyond charge in addition to your seasonal plowing agreement.


I put a small paragraph in every contract:
I want deicer product applied when ice or slippery conditions are present. [X] yes
[X] no
If no, property owner accepts all liability for those conditions. 
Yes or no, you should be keeping track of when those conditions are present, for your own records. Sending a message (text, call) to them when you notice something could maybe work against you. IDK, there's definitely 2 ways to see it.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Perfect!


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## Mike N (Dec 21, 2008)

NBRam1500 said:


> If your worried about the amount of storms. Put a cap on your contract. After x amount of storms they pay a fee per storm . But keep in mind usually with a cap it works both ways . There also a minimum so if we get less than x amount of storms . They get a pro-rated refund.


Never heard of giving a pro rated refund on a contracted season.


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

We have caps on a couple contracts, client requested a minimum service clause as well. I somewhat agree with them. If we want protection so we don't lose our shirt, client should get some kind of protection as well if there is no snow. These clients have a cap of 20 pushes 
With a minimum of 10. 

$1000 contract after 20 visits they pay $75 extra per push

Minimum on this contract would be $750 
Biggest possible refund would be $250 

It made the customer happy doing it this way, and gave me protection in case of a really bad winter .


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

In general, the potential problem with giving refunds/rebates in any business is that, once you do it, it will always be expected in the future so it sets a bad precedent. 

better method may be to wait until you negotiate the contract next year and, if they want a discount in the new contract based on the prior year, tell them that you were raising everyone’s rates by 10%, but that you’ll do them a favor and not raise their rate for the new contract


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mike N said:


> Never heard of giving a pro rated refund on a contracted season.


 Your not from the mid west or Canada. :laugh:


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

seville009 said:


> In general, the potential problem with giving refunds/rebates in any business is that, once you do it, it will always be expected in the future so it sets a bad precedent.
> 
> better method may be to wait until you negotiate the contract next year and, if they want a discount in the new contract based on the prior year, tell them that you were raising everyone's rates by 10%, but that you'll do them a favor and not raise their rate for the new contract


Or man up and tell them you are raising rates 10% but you'll hold their rates at a 5% increase if they sign up now. Nothing ventured nothing gained !


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I have never asked a customer for more money to finish out a contract that I wrote and sold. Imagine if you went to buy something at the store, paid the agreed upon price and the manager chases you across the parking lot to your car saying he reconsidered and wasn't making money on it now. Your ducks should be in a row before you offer your contract.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I've debated putting these up, as it might tip my hand too much. But to show him(one, low tech) way to keep track of his service times.
This is my profit/ loss tracking for my seasonal accounts. BASED ON WHAT WE WOULD HAVE BILLED ON OUR HOURLY RATE ( top total) VERSUS WHAT WE MAKE OFF THE CONTRACT PRICE. So on the one account where we "lost" money,we didn't really lose it. Call it money left on the table.
To help you understand the chart.
1) our minimum price is $30. $30 gets them up to 20 minutes, over 20 minutes is $2/min. We try to maintain a 2" trigger ( let's not get into a discussion about zero tolerance please. LOL) these multiple service numbers reflect an accumulation of 4-6"/ service, with the exception of the final one to clean up after the snow stops.
2) so you can see that most of the time, we are under 20 min
3) the dates are on the left. A 2x,3x,4x in a column indicates # of services that day.
4) the orange accounts are connected ( mother-daughter, separate houses), yellow ( business- owners home) . Has no real bearing on the stats. Except that the house we "lost" money on was new this year, (so I know I need to adjust it for next year, or we will know better how to service it next year, and get the service times down), and the mothers house covered the loss.
There, I think I explained it pretty well.
















We had no snow in February, and the rest of the season, though it's not over by any means, doesn't look promising for snow. Salt runs maybe, most of these we don't salt. Point is as it stands, I maid more money on my seasonal price then I would have made from straight billing.
In the next charts it shows what it actually cost me (labor only, based on a $60/hour sub) to service these accounts.















The top total number is my cost .
The middle number is the contract price. Bottom number is profit/ loss.
I haven't figured out a good way to divide up expenses like shop rent and utilities ect. To assign a %age to each account. But at least I can show there is a margin there to cover overhead.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> I have never asked a customer for more money to finish out a contract that I wrote and sold. Imagine if you went to buy something at the store, paid the agreed upon price and the manager chases you across the parking lot to your car saying he reconsidered and wasn't making money on it now. Your ducks should be in a row before you offer your contract.


 My insurance company did just that ! They asked for 400$ more for the year based on last years exposure. I paid in full in nov ! Now they want an extra 369 for last year plus the 400$ for this year,I told them to wait till next years audit,as they've done for 30 years !


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

jonniesmooth said:


> I've debated putting these up, as it might tip my hand too much. .


QuickBooks can be your friend !Or some other software,you'll look back in dismay that you dragged your feet so long !Thumbs Up


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## NBRam1500 (Nov 22, 2019)

Total income
Minus total expenses (including my own salary)
= Companies Profits

Company is incorporated , I'm an employee of such company. 

If I can't make money and company make a profit no point in doing it. 

We raise prices yearly on average of 5% 
More so on PITA clients that we will keep if they want to pay, if we lose them we lose them. 
We get several referrals based on our services not price. People will pay for good service. Neighbors talk.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

leigh said:


> QuickBooks can be your friend !Or some other software,you'll look back in dismay that you dragged your feet so long !Thumbs Up


Some of us are old school. While i utilize quickbooks there are times when it does things that i cant explain and i cant spend a day trying to figure it out.
I back up all my invoices and payments in a simple black ledger book. Even when the accountant calls with a question as to what, where how much? Its easier for me to find it there. Simple things, like who still owes me money, just glance at the page, the missing ones are unpaid. I just started a new book last month, the first one dates back to the opening of my business 25 years ago...For me its iike the passenger manifests at Ellis island..." Just chicken scratches" psshaw!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> Some of us are old school. While i utilize quickbooks there are times when it does things that i cant explain and i cant spend a day trying to figure it out.
> I back up all my invoices and payments in a simple black ledger book. Even when the accountant calls with a question as to what, where how much? Its easier for me to find it there. Simple things, like who still owes me money, just glance at the page, the missing ones are unpaid. I just started a new book last month, the first one dates back to the opening of my business 25 years ago...For me its iike the passenger manifests at Ellis island..." Just chicken scratches" psshaw!


So no indoor plumbing in Erin either?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So no indoor plumbing in Erin either?


No, its for the best. That way we just deal with our own S#17!!!


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> No, its for the best. That way we just deal with our own S#17!!!


Are you fertilizing your clients lawns with malorganite?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

leigh said:


> Looks like the ramblings of a meth addict ! QuickBooks can be your friend !Or some other software,you'll look back in dismay that you dragged your feet so long !Thumbs Up


I had quickbooks about 18 years ago. It crashed after about 3 years.
It was nice for collating data by month, customer, etc. That's what I miss. The printer paper,ink and larger envelopes are more expensive then my carbonless Walmart books,vistaprint address labels and smaller envelopes. Maybe enough to take the wife out to dinner once a year, so not a big deal.
I wanted to get Excel spreadsheet and she said no. Then she had to learn it for work. Now we have it.
We have talked about getting quickbooks again, but I would still at least print this stuff out.
The OP doesn't keep track of anything, so I'm thinking he's gonna need some baby steps to get there too.
I don't want to sound like someone on another thread, but not all of us have, or feel the need to get the newest, latest greatest expensive do dad. But we can still run a decent operation.


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## Mike N (Dec 21, 2008)

FredG said:


> Your not from the mid west or Canada. :laugh:


I'm not far from you.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mike N said:


> I'm not far from you.


 Less than a hour.


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

We went to QBO a couple years ago. I'm not the one to enter everything, the CFO does that. But I do know how to produce an invoice if I need to.

Best part about it is that the bookkeeper and accountant have access - they can find anything they need. And I can open it up and see exactly where I'm at - for the week/month/quarter. It's much better seeing exactly where every $$ is and where it's going.

Messy financials are a headache - they cause more problems and expense then the $$ saved on expert help/software/etc.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

OK...let's start over.

You didn't charge enough for starters and your drive time between accounts is too long.

No, you should not charge extra.

#1 You need to track your times. Time on job and travel time. For every single event. It's a PITA, but it is the only way you can determine if you're making money. 
#2 You need to know your costs involved with performing the work. This is almost #1 but if you don't know your time on a job and travel time, you can't really determine your costs. 
#3 Adding a cap to your contracts is somewhat regional. It might work, it might not work. 
#4 Never give a refund for a seasonal contract. Either write the contract with a minimum to cover part of your overhead or use an average knowing you might be over that average some years and under others. (unless you have a cap) It's kind of a blended seasonal. Or retainer. Whatever you want to call it. 
#5 Don't strictly focus on actual price, focus on toonies/hour. If you focus strictly on price, you might price yourself out of work. I'm not saying price isn't important, but efficiencies are just as important. If you look at what the guys with tractor\blowers are charging, they might be lower than you, but are still making money because their routes are so tight. There's a long thread from 2007ish on just this subject. I argued (big surprise) with a bunch about how what most thought was too low of a price was ending up with about $120/hour...using math. @Philbilly2 might have been before his time.

I keep getting interrupted so I don't recall if I was going to say something else. Not sure if I covered everything...I highly doubt I did.

If you lost money this year, it sucks. Chalk it up to tuition at the School of Hard Knocks. And if it makes you feel better, even experienced contractors screw up and lose money on a job here and there. And the opposite happens as well...screw up and make a bunch of money on a job. So even that evens out.



Mister Nature Lawn Care said:


> So our struggle around is that those looks for idiots or snowblower who want to charge less? One snowblower company went bankruptcy in Ottawa... Metro as it left many stuck in the snow.


Is this the company that closed the doors and then offered a $10 coupon for his other business that he didn't close down?

As for charging less, I covered this above. Just because they're charging less doesn't mean they're idiots. Doesn't mean they're smart either. WalMart built quite the company on being cheap. I don't like them, but they truly are the epitome of capitalism.


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