# Verbal Agreement Dilema, you be the judge



## RonWin (Nov 17, 2011)

So this is my first, real?, season of plowing. I got into the doing several resi accounts last year and plowed for the first time. My customers that i take care of are mostly from the neighborhood i lived in and friends/acquitances(sp) of my parents. I called them up before the season started and they all told me that i did a good job last year with plowing and that they would want me to continue to plow for them this year. Now heres the dilema, it is all verbal agreement (which i have no problems with) except for when there is an allday snow storm type of deal like there is now. Heavy snow accumulating late tonight (FRI) til sat afternoon. Now, some of them want me to wait and plow them out after it ALL comes down. Should i be willing to do this if there is going to be 8"-10" to plow at once? Will that not be real rough on my truck ? Also how do i go about charging them ? We have a set price per time i come to plow but if they are wanting me to come after all is done with than i should charge accordingly. My trigger is 2" wet heavy, 3" powder but i guess all my trigger is good for is if i go out to plow or not, NOT about how many times i come for storms. I have no problem with this people at all, i just want to make sure that i am charging correctly so that i do not get into a situation where i am being walked on. I understand that the snow plowing industry, like any industry, should have standards and present quality work with professional outlooks. Please help!


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

you plow it at every 2" and bill accordingly 12" is 6 plows. now since this isnt in writing I would OK it with them first. most people will not go for it, so I would say ok, I can come every 4", but I cannot push 12" in one shot unless you can work out a price where it would be worth it for you


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## RonWin (Nov 17, 2011)

for every time i come its $50 (on avg)at 2" wet 3" powder, are guys able to really get x6 that if they have it in writing? Didnt know that people were willing to pay that much, damn.


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

If it were commercial properties, then yes plow per your trigger. Since its residentials, I would probably do it twice, just to keep the driveways passable. You do not want to get stuck, but you don't want to take advantage of them either. I would be pissed if I saw you plowing my driveway every 2 hours.


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## RonWin (Nov 17, 2011)

so plow twice and charge em as such? 10" should be charged as twice atleast i agree.


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## jb1390 (Sep 23, 2008)

Wilnip;1591108 said:


> If it were commercial properties, then yes plow per your trigger. Since its residentials, I would probably do it twice, just to keep the driveways passable. You do not want to get stuck, but you don't want to take advantage of them either. I would be pissed if I saw you plowing my driveway every 2 hours.


Agreed, I will go twice if it is more than 12", possibly 3 times if it's more than 24". No reason to beat on the truck, I've never had an issue receiving payment for multiple plows in one storm when I explain the abuse on my truck pushing more than 12".


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

I would suggest: 2"-6" $50 over 6" $75 ,Find out what they want & show up when they want you to(ie: 1 time/day, every 4", ect.) & charge accordingly, but stand firm that you must plow when it gets to 10", 12" or whatever you think is your limit.


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## geer hed (Nov 22, 2010)

In most cases the average person really has no clue what it takes to plow snow. What you need to do is first call them and explain that if you wait untill the storm is over with that much snow you may not be able to move it, and that you would then need to get a piece of equipment to come in to and clear thier driveway. Explain to them that you would have to charge them for added costs for the rental of the equipment. Rather than do that you would prefer to plow thier drive way every 6" or so. You tell them that the first plows will be at a discount, because you will just buzz in, open it up, and go again then when the storm is over you will come in and do a complete plow job for the normal amount. Usually when you explain it to them so they can understand it and you make it sound like you are trying to work with them and save them money they are more willing to accept it, and usually say oh yes thats fine.


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## SnowFlakeChaser (Nov 4, 2006)

I read your post and then the responses. I really see it as a non issue to push 8-10 inches at one time. If you push to the right side of driveway make your first pass down the right side and then plow as normal. This moves 8 ft of snow out of the way so you wont be pushing all of the (let say 15 ft wide) snow to push on the last cleanup pass. If I had a forecast of 8-10 inches I'd be in bed until the storm was about to end, grab a coffee and a hot pocket while the truck warms up then go out as the storm ends for residential driveways. I'm in the 18-24 inch range in central mass and I'm only plowing driveways twice. I am like you thought, I dont have a price increase written into my agreements. Two years ago when we got "Snowtober" 24 inches I was only able to plow driveways one time. I charged 1 1/2 times the price and nobody complained. That storm was fun. Down wires, whole trees in the road or hung up in the wires, few trees on houses. No power for 5 days, some went 10 days with no power. Anyways, 8-10 inches in nothing, maybe you can rewrite your contracts to cover yourself for the next storm, but for this one you're going to have to bit the bullet and plow twice for the same price or once at a little slower speed. Good luck.


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## geer hed (Nov 22, 2010)

Your right to a point Chaser.
You COULD push 2 feet of snow at once with no problem, Hell I've pushed 12 " with my garden tractor allready. IF IT"S ALL POWDER. But i've also seen where guys had trouble pushing 6 ". It all depends on what type snow you get.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

I do verbal agreements with all my clients as well. but I wouldn't stand for clients wanting me to wait till that many inches are down. 

mine all know if we are getting 6"+ it's a 2 or more visit charge depending on how many inches we are really suppose to get. I won't push more than 4 inches of snow at a time. 

if they wanted me to wait till it was all down unfortunately I'd have to let them go.


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## gpservices (Feb 27, 2013)

This is a tough one, sometimes verbal is better sometimes not, for instance one year i had contracts saying i will charge every time i come for big storms, sounds good right? Well problem was storm was so bad getting more then 4inches an hour i ended up with 20 or more drives and lots never touched with 2 feet of snow, then what only charge for 1 plow in almost impossible plowing conditions? Thats when the verbal would be better cause nothing is written you could explain your reason for higher price without customer saying but your contrat says $60 a push and you only came once. So now i have that every trip will be charged and heavy amounts of snow could be more per push in exstreme conditions now im covered both ways


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

Simpler and better to charge by the snow fall total.

Say you know the snow storm will be 4" and that 1 trip and you are done.

Say 12" and you know you will want to do 3 trips.

So at the start of the season you give your customers a price by the snow storm inch total.

Customer does not get into how many times you will be showing up. You control how many passes is best for you and your equipment.

Same way never tell a customer you charge $60 an hour to mow his lawn. For the customer will go bananas with the idea of paying someone to sit on a mower and make $60 an hour. See, the customer hear's $60, he does not factor in costs to operate a business.

This is the same with plowing. What pay a guy all that money to sit on his butt in a truck with the heat on for 10 minutes work. Damn, he never has to even shift and work the clutch pedal because his truck has an automatic transmission. What a crook, robber, thief, rip off artist, he uses a plow instead of a gun.

We must be proactive with customer relations or we get responses and thoughts from our customers as the examples above.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

personally I prefer to charge residentials by the visit and commercials by the hour. 

it's spelled out. I will make one visit for up to 4 inches of snow. after that 2 visits or more are required depending on how many inches are coming. 

with commercials the lots are cleared every 2 inches.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

simple - charge by total snowfall, NOT by number of visits. 

my brackets are 2-6, 6-12, 12-18, 18-24, 24-30, 30-36, over 36 God help us all!!! some guys have even tighter brackets than this. base pricing is a 2-6 storm, and it goes up by a factor for each 6" bracket thereafter. 

i'd like to plow a 30 inch snowfall 2-3 times, but with 50 accounts and snowfall rates at 4 inches per hour, it's just no feasible all the time. obvoiusly plowing 30 inches at once is harder on me and my equipment than doing it 2-3 times.

this way you get paid the same if you are able to make it there 3 times or only once. its up to you, and there is no confusion on the part of your customers either. 

i only do residentials - commercials would be a different story as i doubt they would allow 30" in their lot at any point.

and if anyone needs to plow a 10" storm more than once, then they need better equipment.


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## gpservices (Feb 27, 2013)

I like that idea of the brackets like 2-6 etc.. only problem that i have found with that is some people gripe at you about how much snow we actually got, like say we got enough for you to send them 2 charges they may say theres no way we got 8 inches here. But then again no system is fool proof.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

gpservices;1610048 said:


> I like that idea of the brackets like 2-6 etc.. only problem that i have found with that is some people gripe at you about how much snow we actually got, like say we got enough for you to send them 2 charges they may say theres no way we got 8 inches here. But then again no system is fool proof.


i forgot that part...

i state that it is as per the official storm ending measurement taken at the town hall. (all my accounts are in the same town). now some driveways have more/less snow than others, but the town hall measurement is a good average.


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## gpservices (Feb 27, 2013)

Now thats a good idea, cant argue with the town hall, if they gripe tell them to look up the records and then they cant say anything, i may try that


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## darryl g (Jan 30, 2010)

yardguy28;1609988 said:


> personally I prefer to charge residentials by the visit and commercials by the hour.
> 
> it's spelled out. I will make one visit for up to 4 inches of snow. after that 2 visits or more are required depending on how many inches are coming.
> 
> with commercials the lots are cleared every 2 inches.


That all sounds great until you get a storm where it's snowing at a rate of 4 inches per hour and travel speed between accounts is 5 to 10 mph.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

linckeil;1610043 said:


> simple - charge by total snowfall, NOT by number of visits.
> 
> my brackets are 2-6, 6-12, 12-18, 18-24, 24-30, 30-36, over 36 God help us all!!! some guys have even tighter brackets than this. base pricing is a 2-6 storm, and it goes up by a factor for each 6" bracket thereafter.
> 
> ...


my clients seem to like the way I charge and I like the way I charge so why change it.

you make more money charging per visit. take your 6-12 inch bracket at x amount. when I charge 6" is a 2 visit at x per visit. 12" would be at least 3 visits at x per visit. your charging x amount whether its 6,7,10 or 12 inches.

as for plowing 10 inches once. not me. better equipment or not. I baby my equipment as much as possible. it's no more than 4 inches per visit. once 5 or more is called for then I'm coming at the half way point or every 4 inches and back after the rest is done.



darryl g;1610116 said:


> That all sounds great until you get a storm where it's snowing at a rate of 4 inches per hour and travel speed between accounts is 5 to 10 mph.


well we don't get snow like that. but I just work my route until I'm threw it and start all over again. or until 12 hours is up then I go home, sleep 6-8 hours and do it all again.


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## darryl g (Jan 30, 2010)

yardguy28;1610212 said:


> my clients seem to like the way I charge and I like the way I charge so why change it.
> 
> you make more money charging per visit. take your 6-12 inch bracket at x amount. when I charge 6" is a 2 visit at x per visit. 12" would be at least 3 visits at x per visit. your charging x amount whether its 6,7,10 or 12 inches.
> 
> ...


I do the same thing but usually head home at 23.5 hours for 4 or 5 hours sleep. I was out for 36 hours during our recent blizzard. I bill based on how much we get regardless of how many times I plow it. 2 to 4 gets billed at base rate, 4 to 6 at 1.5 times base rate, 6 to 8 at 2.0 times base rate and 8+ at 2.5 to 3.5 times base rate or whatever I feel is fair.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

darryl g;1610216 said:


> I do the same thing but usually head home at 23.5 hours for 4 or 5 hours sleep. I was out for 36 hours during our recent blizzard. I bill based on how much we get regardless of how many times I plow it. 2 to 4 gets billed at base rate, 4 to 6 at 1.5 times base rate, 6 to 8 at 2.0 times base rate and 8+ at 2.5 to 3.5 times base rate or whatever I feel is fair.


the most snow I've ever seen is 8" at a time. everyone got a double visit. at that time I wasn't doing commercial lots just residential driveways.

normally we don't see much over 4" when it snows. but pushing anything over 4" is a pain I think. so if we are getting 6" I'm on there driveway at 3" then come back after the last 3" are down.

if we ever were to get 12" I'd be making 3 visits. every 4 inches.

I guess it depends on how you set your brackets up. if you set 6" to cost as much as 12" your making money. but if you charge for 12" what your charging for 6" your loosing money.

if 6" costs me x per visit at 2 visits and I charge that same amount for 12" but make 3 visits I'm loosing money. now if I charge x per visit at 3 visits for 12" and charge that same total for 6" I'm making money.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

yardguy28;1610212 said:


> my clients seem to like the way I charge and I like the way I charge so why change it.
> 
> you make more money charging per visit. take your 6-12 inch bracket at x amount. when I charge 6" is a 2 visit at x per visit. 12" would be at least 3 visits at x per visit. your charging x amount whether its 6,7,10 or 12 inches.
> 
> ...


do whatever works best for you. no one is telling you to change anything. if you have a small enough route and get small amounts of snow and can hit each driveway 10 times per storm, than do that.

if that was the case for me, i'd have only 2 driveways and go back and froth between them constantly throughout a storm, and bill them in full for each visit. don't know who would sign up for that though?

if you have a decent sized route, get a decent sized storm, and have snowfall rates at 4 inches per hour, then good luck getting to each driveway more than once in those conditions. i know the last storm we got 27" and most driveways were done once. under your structure, i can only charge what i would for a 4" storm, even though it takes me 4 times as long and is harder on me and my equipment. then if you have a breakdown (which is an ever present risk), you know you won't get there the 3 or 4 times that you'd like, so your revenue is cut down substainally. why put yourself in that position? bill based on total snowfall and do it as many times as you'd like and still get paid the same. why pigeon hold yourself?

again, to each his own. i've been at it for 16 years and my method works great for me. if you end up with a huge snowfall where you simply cannot keep up, i think you would be cursing your current billing structure.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

yardguy28;1610329 said:


> I guess it depends on how you set your brackets up. if you set 6" to cost as much as 12" your making money. but if you charge for 12" what your charging for 6" your loosing money. QUOTE]
> 
> trust me, 12" or 6" - i am not loosing any money. anytime i am behind the plow i am making money - if i wasn't i wouldn't be doing it as long as i have.
> 
> the brackets are straight forward and everyone knows exactly what they will be charged, regardless if i show up 4 times or only once.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

linckeil;1610333 said:


> do whatever works best for you. no one is telling you to change anything. if you have a small enough route and get small amounts of snow and can hit each driveway 10 times per storm, than do that.
> 
> *if that was the case for me, i'd have only 2 driveways and go back and froth between them constantly throughout a storm, and bill them in full for each visit. don't know who would sign up for that though?*
> 
> ...


I didn't say my clients let me come as many times as I want per storm. like you said who would sign up for that.

what I said was I get multiple visits from the larger amounts we receive. basically I set it up so anything over 4" usually gets more than 1 visit. 2"-4" is just a single visit.

I also don't take on more than I can personally handle. I know how many hours I'm willing to work each storm and don't take on more business than will fit in those hours.



linckeil;1610338 said:


> yardguy28;1610329 said:
> 
> 
> > I guess it depends on how you set your brackets up. if you set 6" to cost as much as 12" your making money. but if you charge for 12" what your charging for 6" your loosing money. QUOTE]
> ...


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

why take the time (and fuel) to visit a driveway twice for an 8 inch storm? do it once and get the same money you would if you went there twice..... i could move 8 inches of powder with a piece of plywood in front of my front wheel drive saturn. i'm sure your truck can handle it without too much issue.

one of 2 things need to happen before you see the problem with your pricing structure:

1)you get a storm you cant keep up with (you say that doesnt happen where you live, but look at all the snow currently falling it texas) 

2) a truck or plow breakdown - not even one that puts you out of commision, but sets you back. heck, even a flat tire would probably be enough...

either of these 2 things happen, and you will not visit these customers once for every 4 inches of snow that falls, thus decreasing your pay. if its based on total snowfall, and not visits, there is no pay decrease under either of these scenarios. 

like i said, do whatever works for you. i'm just telling you from experience that your pricing structure can come back and bite you in the a$$. plow long enough, and it surely will. just advice from one plow guy to another here. thats all i have to say on the topic.

anyway, hopefully the OP can now formulate his pricing structure based on this discussion.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

maybe you think I'm busier than I know I am for much of anything 2 set me back much of anything. 

I can service all my clients in 12 hours or less. that's 1 visit to each property. 4 inches max. 

I currently have 20 residential driveways and one commercial lot. the only thing I plan on adding for next year is one more commercial lot and maybe drop replace some residentials with another commercial lot. 

I'm not removing snow for 50+ driveways and every business in town. it would honestly take something pretty major to set me back. in fact I remember a year before I had a plow I was maybe half way through my route. doing driveways with snow blowers. a dude pulled in front of me while I was crossing the intersection. truck was undriveable after that. took about an hour at least to sort that. then I borrow my grandpas truck to finish my route. I still finished on time. 

I told you I don't cram my schedule full where I'm balls to the wall full of people to dig out. I have plenty of time to drive the speed limit, normally slower when it snows. plenty of time to stop for gas or the bathroom should I need to. I have maybe 2 clients who work and want there driveways cleared before the leave. the rest are senior citizens who just want me there that day. then I have the one commercial lot that is done by 5am. 

I appreciate advice from one guy to the next but I just don't share your opinion that my pricing structure is flawed. if for no other reason than the fact that I know very few guys in the business who charge any differently. I discussed it with a friend who's in the business before I go into it. he's been doing snow removal for 13 years. commercial is charged by the hour and residentials are charged per visit. he's been doing it that way for 13 years now.

we all pretty much hit driveways at least twice when 5 or more inches are called for. once at the half way point and then back again when it's done.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

i told myself i was done posting here, but i gotta ask one last question...

*what is the harm or downside to charging based on total snowfall and establishing brackets?*

if you plow every 4 inches, then setup brackets at 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 12-15, etc, etc.

plow once during each bracket if that is what you perfer, or plow once for an entire storm if you find yourself in a situation where you can only make it there once.

charging by total snowfall you have options to do whatever you perfer/whatever fate dictates AND still guarentee yourself the exact same pay..

charging per visit you have the same options, BUT only get paid per visit. you are really limiting yourself here in the event of an unforeseen circumstance in which you can only make it there once (like i said, plow long enough and this unforeseen circumstance will surely occur at one point or another).

these are facts (not opinon) regarding the 2 pricing structures.

i'm trying to see this from your point of view, but i see zero downside to charging per total snowfall, and plenty of potential downside in plowing per visit.


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## darryl g (Jan 30, 2010)

I used to bill per push with a push being defined as up to 6 inches with a 3 inch trigger, but it created some problems. Of course some cheap skates would say, well I only want one push no matter how much we get. But a bigger problem was when a storm would be forcasted to be say 8 inches. I'd roll out and start plowing at 3 inches and it would stop snowing at 6 inches. I've already plowed the front end of my route once but now it's stopped snowing by the time I get toward the end of my route so those customers only get one push, but the front end of my route got 2 or 3 inches after I plowed so I hit them again. Now I've got some customers with one push and some with 2 for same storm. Is it really fair to bill one customer twice as much as the other? So what I would do to even things out is run my route one way on one storm and then backwards the next storm. Another problem was that where I am the snow tends to be wet and heavy and there can be a big difference in the time and effort it takes to plow 6 inches than 3 inches. So some storms I'd make out well and others I'd take a beating. Also, a lot of storms would fall short of my 3 inch trigger, but it would be enough snow to create problems if we got another storm a few days later. Now I'm trying to push on hardpack or ice.

4 years ago I changed my billing to per inch and dropped my trigger to 2 inches and set up pricing brackets, which are essentially a mutiplier times a base price. I reserve the right to adjust the multiplier based on the type of storm too. If it's a nasty heavy 3 inches of snow I might bump my billing up to the next bracket. Now I have a lot more flexibility in who I plow and when and I feel that I get compensated more fairly. My hourly rate per storm is now pretty steady, whereas it used to vary quite a bit.

P.S. - I have my bracket set up in 2 inch increments. 2 to 4, 4 to 6, 6 to 8 and 8 plus (a range for that one). And because I reserve the right to adjust my multiplier for difficulty I can pretty much bill whatever I think is fair for an account just by adjusting that. For our recent blizzard I used a multiplier of 3.5 for most accounts but bumped it to 4 for a couple of difficult ones and down to 2.5 or 3 for a few that were easy or I wanted to give a break to, or perhaps that had done some themselves. Another plus is that I no longer list when I did the service on my invoices, since it doesn't matter...I just list the storm event.


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## OC&D (Dec 2, 2009)

yardguy28;1610719 said:


> I can service all my clients in 12 hours or less. that's 1 visit to each property. 4 inches max.
> 
> I currently have 20 residential driveways and one commercial lot. the only thing I plan on adding for next year is one more commercial lot and maybe drop replace some residentials with another commercial lot.


Is that commercial lot huge, or are your drives really spread out(unless by "less" you mean 6-8 hours)? That seems like an awful long time for a route that small. Even if the lot took 2 hours, you're only doing a drive every 30 minutes thereafter including drive time. I don't really do residentials anymore, but plowing the average driveway takes me 3-5 minutes.


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## OC&D (Dec 2, 2009)

darryl g;1610829 said:


> I used to bill per push with a push being defined as up to 6 inches with a 3 inch trigger, but it created some problems.


I charge per service(push) as_ measured on site by me, the contractor_, so if I show up and plow 3", then show up again and we got an additional 6", I'm charging one rate for the time I plowed at 3" and a higher rate for the time I plowed at 6". If it were two 3" pushes, they'd both be charged the same.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

linckeil;1610826 said:


> i told myself i was done posting here, but i gotta ask one last question...
> 
> *what is the harm or downside to charging based on total snowfall and establishing brackets?*
> 
> ...


I could ask you the same thing about the way I charge.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

yardguy28;1611524 said:


> I could ask you the same thing about the way I charge.


sure, you could ask me the downside to a per visit billing structure, but i don't know why you would? i already clearly outlined the factual downside to it in my earlier post that you just quoted.

can you tell me the downside to a per total snowfall billing structure?

i'm trying to understand what benefit a per visit structure offers over a per total snowfall structure. am i missing something obvoius?

i'm not an expert on all things snowplowing and i learn new stuff from this site every now and then. if a per visit structure has some benefit that i am missing over a per total snowfall structure, then i will gladly change my billing structure. so please tell.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

OC&D;1611181 said:


> I charge per service(push) as_ measured on site by me, the contractor_, so if I show up and plow 3", then show up again and we got an additional 6", I'm charging one rate for the time I plowed at 3" and a higher rate for the time I plowed at 6". If it were two 3" pushes, they'd both be charged the same.


Say you charge $45 per push.

So you plow 3", $45 for service.

Then you go back 2nd time 6", $45 + $45 = $90 for two pushes.

Say you get backed up and do not get there till there is 9", so you plow once, $45.

Now if you charge per inch, say $10 per inch.

9 inches, means you make $90.

Whether you get there once or twice pricing by the inch lets the plow owner control how many pushes he needs to do.

Truck breaks down, flat tire, blow breaks down, any thing can happen to cause you to be delayed and not get a second push in. Your way then lets you lose $45.

By push you are gambling that you will never break down or get delayed and not lose the 2nd push money.

By the inch guarantees you will get the full money for the job.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

32vld;1611546 said:


> Say you charge $45 per push.
> 
> So you plow 3", $45 for service.
> 
> ...


clear as day to me - exactly what i've been saying all along.

but some folks are pretty adamant that a per visit pricing structure makes more sense. like i said, maybe i'm missing something obvious? i wish someone would tell me what benefits a per visit structure has over a per total snowfall structure?


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

linckeil;1611531 said:


> sure, you could ask me the downside to a per visit billing structure, but i don't know why you would? i already clearly outlined the factual downside to it in my earlier post that you just quoted.
> 
> can you tell me the downside to a per total snowfall billing structure?
> 
> ...


well first off I'm not about trying to change someone's mind or way of doing business. everyone does what works for them.

secondly based on what I've been reading about your per total snow fall I haven't seen a benefit over my per visit charge. your assuming I've come to think this per snow fall charge is the way to go and that you've convinced me or shown me there is a benefit over a per visit charge.

the fact of the matter is in the 31 years I've lived here we've never gotten snow falls larger than 8-10 inches total. so there will most likely never be a chance I won't make it to my clients driveways more than once.

it's also going to be hard to convince clients to agree to a per snow fall charge vs a per visit. as I said before I don't know anyone who charges per snow fall. when you come they expect to be charged x amount each time you show up. they don't care if that's 2 feet or 2 inches they want they same price. so since they seem to be ok with per visit which is the same amount each visit that's what works. they'd rather pay say for example purposes $25 per visit, 2 visits for an 8" storm than have different totals for different amounts and have to guess which one your going to invoice them for. clients don't like to do things themselves like know how many inches we got. that's my job to do. they see when I come and they know its gonna be x amount. they don't have to look up and see well we got this many inches so its gonna be this charge.

bottom line is it doesn't matter why you use the per snow fall charge and I use the per visit charge. it's what works for you and what works for me.

I make the money I want and need and I assume you make the money you want and need.


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## darryl g (Jan 30, 2010)

Some people charge by kind of a hyrbrid system...per inch per push. That's been discussed on this board before. A friend of mine charges per push/per minute. He charges $50 for the first 6 minutes and then $7/minute after that....a mere $420/hour, lol. Mine is really per storm, based on a difficulty factor that is closely related to how many inches but takes other factors into consideration as well.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

yardguy28;1611668 said:


> well first off I'm not about trying to change someone's mind or way of doing business. everyone does what works for them.
> 
> secondly based on what I've been reading about your per total snow fall I haven't seen a benefit over my per visit charge your assuming I've come to think this per snow fall charge is the way to go and that you've convinced me or shown me there is a benefit over a per visit charge.
> 
> ...


lets clear this one thing up - i am by absolutely no means trying to get you to change your position. at what point did i ever imply that i have convinced you of anything as you say? frankly, i do not care how you bill. this is a simple conversation about the pros/cons of one method versus another. just using the forum as it's designed - to learn something and share ideas.....

the one con regarding a per total snowfall structure you have listed is that it is difficult to convince clients to use this manner over a per visit structure. Ok, seems like it may be a legimate "con". but how do you know this? have you tried? my first 2 years i was a per visit guy. for the last 14 i've been a per snowfall guy. (i recognized the potential downside of the per visit structure very quickly). Not one customer had any issue whatsoever when i changed my pricing. people understand that moving 3 inches of snow is more work than moving 12 inches of snow.

i had to highlight in red what you said above.. this is really confusing and illustrates that you are not understanding this per total snowfall structure. using your example:

8" on a per total snowfall basis is $50 - thats it, its $50 bucks no matter what, no matter how may times you visit, no confusion whatsoever, no "different totals for different amounts", no customer guessing what they will pay. 8" is $50 - plain and simple.

8" under your method is $50 IF you get there twice as you are planning. IF you have a setback, a breakdown, and you only get there once, then you are getting $25. unless the customer is peering out their window counting the number of times you show up, then they dont know how many times you actually made it there, thus do not know what they are going to pay. they can assume all went well and you did make it there twice, but they will not know for sure until they receive the invoice. 

i hope you never get that freak snowstorm you can't keep up with or you have a breakdown (even though this will "most likely never be a chance" as you say), or you at some point decide that you'd like to have the option to go just once to an account and get the same pay.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

darryl g;1611681 said:


> Some people charge by kind of a hyrbrid system...per inch per push. That's been discussed on this board before. A friend of mine charges per push/per minute. He charges $50 for the first 6 minutes and then $7/minute after that....a mere $420/hour, lol. Mine is really per storm, based on a difficulty factor that is closely related to how many inches but takes other factors into consideration as well.


charging based on minutes? how would a customer ever be able to evaluate one price quote versus another? contractor A quotes $50 for the first 6 inches, then contractor B comes in and quotes $50 for the first 6 minutes. apples and oranges. too many variables at play when billing based on time. too much potential for arguement from the customer if you run into an issue, or accusations of "milking the clock" (for which there is an obvious incentive).

in some lines of work charging based on time makes sense, but in plowing i would never agree to that as a homeowner. i've never heard of this approach for residential plowing. but if he can make it work, good for him....


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

bottom line is no matter what's said about either way of charging I like my method and you like your method. it's clear in both our posts because we both talk up our methods. 

I honestly don't feel your method is better. I'm not sure mine is either. they are just different. 

to answer your question about whether my clients would care about a per snowfall charge. well as I said posts back. I don't know anyone in the business who charges per snowfall. I assume this is because you can't get people willing to pay that way. we all seem to charge by the hour for commercial lots and per visit for residentials. 

as for them knowing how many visits I actually did based on the charge. most are senior citizens and are home when I come. I'm sure most are aware when I come once or twice or however many times. 

one last thing that you probably don't know is a breakdown probably wouldn't slow me down much and keep me from 2 visits in an 8" storm. if the plow broke I'd finish up with the snow blowers and fix the plow later. if it were the truck I'd use my backup and still finish with the blowers. everyone would still get 2 visits. I'm not gonna stop in the middle of a route to fix things. that's why I have backups. 

we are really gonna have to agree to disagree because I seriously don't think any one method of charging is better than the other. 

like I said I make the money I need and want charging my way. you make the money you need and want charging your way. so they clearly both work.


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## darryl g (Jan 30, 2010)

linckeil;1611715 said:


> charging based on minutes? how would a customer ever be able to evaluate one price quote versus another? contractor A quotes $50 for the first 6 inches, then contractor B comes in and quotes $50 for the first 6 minutes. apples and oranges. too many variables at play when billing based on time. too much potential for arguement from the customer if you run into an issue, or accusations of "milking the clock" (for which there is an obvious incentive).
> 
> in some lines of work charging based on time makes sense, but in plowing i would never agree to that as a homeowner. i've never heard of this approach for residential plowing. but if he can make it work, good for him....


Yeah, I know...he was charging a minimum of $300 for the first half hour for plowing after the blizzard. I don't think it actually does work out for him. I think a lot of his work is one-time stuff. He got honorable mention for price gouging in the reader blog section of an article on the blizzard in a local on-line news paper.


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## darryl g (Jan 30, 2010)

Hmmm..I don't know anybody who charges hourly for commercial accounts Yardguy. Usually it's per push or per inch the same as residential where I am, but with a higher starting rate. I've never billed hourly but I do look at how long I spent on an account when deciding what to bill them.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

well darryl everyone does things differently as you know. 

I'm assuming there's such a difference in charges based on how much snow a location receives in a winter. 

between december, january and february I can count on 1 hand the amount of times I've been out this winter to push snow. 

when I started snow removal all I had were snow blowers and did residential driveways. my prices came from calling around and asking friends in the business what/how they charge and the going rates plus my cost of doing business. 

3 years ago I got a new truck and got a plow for it. again I called buddies to see the going rate and how things were charged. 

always came up with per visit on residential drives and per hour on commercial lots. 

most of these guys I've talked with have been in the business at least 10 years so they must be doing something right to keep charging like that.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

It is funny how different areas charge so differently . In my area for driveways we charge per plow. Now body I know charges by the hour for commercial unless they are a sub.


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

my point exactly. 

each location charges according to the amount of snow they get per season. or so I would assume that's why there is such a variation. 

these snows linkeil speaks of are for his area. so it probably makes sense to charge that way. in my neck of the woods we don't usually see anything over 4" when it snows. once or twice a season we might see 8" but that didn't happen this winter or last winter. 

in fact as I said I can count on 1 hand the amount of times I've pushed snow this winter. and they were all 2" storms.


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## darryl g (Jan 30, 2010)

I have never had a customer not understand that there are different levels of effort required to plow different amounts of snow and that I need to charge accordingly for how much snow we got...anyone arguing that their customers would not go for billing per inch should think about that.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

ok, let's get back on track and refrain from getting personal and calling each other names...if we don't like another member or their posts, etc. then please try to either avoid each other or use the "ignore" option

thanks, we would appreciate it :waving:


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## yardguy28 (Jan 23, 2012)

well I decided to look into this charging per snow fall charge. just for informational purposes I polled my snow removal clients. 

the results. 

out of 20 residential driveways I'm now down to 14. 6 clients didn't agree with the per snow fall charge and fired me for fear I was actually going to switch. there reason. they don't see how it's any harder for me to remove 6" of snow than remove 2" of snow when I just sit in the truck. so they expect if I'm there once to pay the same amount for that visit whether its 2" or 6". if I'm there twice they are fine with charging for 2 visits. but if I only come once they expect I only charge for one visit. 

the other clients are a mix of yes and no. the no's are saying about the same thing as they ones who fired me already. they don't see why I would have to charge more for 6" than for 2". 

so I guess I'll be sticking with per visit. and now I have to find replacements for those 6.


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## rocks&blocks (Oct 30, 2012)

I pretty much agree that you need to go out at least twice and give your customer a fair price, around $75. Leaving it for one push is hard. 

We just finished plowing out our sites, took three visits. We got the first call late, ( I think they were trying to get 1-2 pushes out of the storm). I was was not a happy camper! Everything is slower, harder, and the equipment takes a beating, including the operator! :realmad:


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## Meezer (Apr 3, 2010)

> out of 20 residential driveways I'm now down to 14. 6 clients didn't agree with the per snow fall charge and fired me for fear I was actually going to switch.


Wow, that's really weird for them to do that. What state are you in???



> they don't see how it's any harder for me to remove 6" of snow than remove 2" of snow when I just sit in the truck.


Really??? Ask them this:

Let's go to Home Depot. We'll take a couple of them of them flat carts that they have in the concrete section.

On 1 cart we'll load 10- 80 pound bags of concrete mix

On the other cart we'll load 1- 80 pound bag of concrete mix

So using their "logic", it's not any harder to push the 10 bag cart than it is to push the 1 bag cart?????



> so they expect if I'm there once to pay the same amount for that visit whether its 2" or 6". if I'm there twice they are fine with charging for 2 visits


But if they are okay if you are there twice & fine with paying for the 2 visits, that kinda blows up their "theory" of:

_they don't see how it's any harder for me to remove 6" of snow than remove 2" of snow when I just sit in the truck_

Why would you or anyone else need to show up more than once????:laughing:

Having said all that, I have no problem with you or anyone else charging per visit. It seems like you know your market. What works well in 1 market area may not work well in another.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

those 6 customers you lost are morons. you are better off without them. you need to educate these people. whats harder on them to shovel? 2" or 6"? thats the question i would pose. 

and if they dont understand why 2" is any harder than 6" then why would they be okay with you coming twice and having to pay twice? if its the same work from their point of view, then why wouldn't they just have you come once and then pay once? it would save them money. your customer's logic is very flawed and like i said, you are better off without them. 

and i love the customers who say, "well you're just sitting in the truck" - as if thats all there is to it. your customers really need to be educated as to all that is involved. i don't mind taking the time to explain this to my customers, but if after doing so and they still dont get it, i suggest that it is in both of our best interests to part ways.

protect yourself and your best interests first, then worry about your customers. you are doing this to make money for your benefit, not theirs...


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