# Out rageous plow insurance...



## kah68

I am in Ontario and have been asked to plow a small road and the 6 drives off it, plus a couple of others, can anyone tell me how much they are paying for the season, for additional plow insurance, my broker estimated $450.00 originally then she just called me today to tell me it was $ 2,500.00 for a season  . I don't think 8 drives and a small road justify the costs to cover my rear.

Kirk


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## bribrius

kah68;425197 said:


> I am in Ontario and have been asked to plow a small road and the 6 drives off it, plus a couple of others, can anyone tell me how much they are paying for the season, for additional plow insurance, my broker estimated $450.00 originally then she just called me today to tell me it was $ 2,500.00 for a season  . I don't think 8 drives and a small road justify the costs to cover my rear.
> 
> Kirk


they probably dont. welcome to plowing!!!  
consider yourself, SELF INSURED, like millions of others with snowplows!
if it makes you feel better about it for years plowing insurance didnt exist so no one had it. many big businesses are self insured under a seperate division or affiliate. course you dont have the protection they do and everyone is sue happy these days so dont hit anything if you can help it and WHATEVER you do dont hit a person. at least your in canada so any potential victims would get free medical treatment right? that only leaves property damage, pain and suffering, loss of wages. death......


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## kah68

She told me it was the 'slip and fall' law suits that really cranks the rates up. Does anyone know of a broker who doesn't ask for an arm and a leg for plow insurance?


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## Camden

You were probably quoted such an "Out rageous" amount because you're only a junior member of this site. Wait until you're a senior member and your rates will drop immensely. :waving:


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## Mick

A "self insurance" policy usually means you deposit a certain amount with the State and are issued a Certificate. The days of doing anything that involves risk without insurance are quickly going the way of the dodo bird. I live in a very rural area of a state with a very low incident of lawsuits but I've had a General Liability policy ever since the first driveway I plowed. If you have anything of value or ever hope to, the proper insurance is a relatively cheap way to sleep easy. If you decide it's not worth it, find something else to do.


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## kah68

Hillarious, FWIW I've been plowing for 23 years, just not for hire.


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## bribrius

mick. i hate to bring up the insurance thing. really do. and dont get me wrong i agree you SHOULD have insurance. i figure ill have them write it for three months then i cancel it. thing is though most people in this state have less coverage than i carry on my PERSONAL policy. now if im not mistaken if someone only carries fifty k which is the minimum in maine i believe anything OVER fifty k the insurance doesnt cover anyway. this gentlemen doesnt live in maine. think im just trying to get acrossed the point that although commercial insurance is definatley a good idea, especially gl if your salting and doing walks. to say that not having snow plow insurance is that taboo doesnt seem very realistic to me since people risk the same or more everyday in their personal vehicles driving to the store. i understand plows can cause damage but people spend more time driving on personal business than trucks spend plowing so i would say the greater risk lies with the person driving to the store for groceries who has low coverage than the plow truck plowing a driveway. like i said. im not sure but im thinking this. there is risk driving everyday. id be more concerned putting twenty k a year on my vehicle in personal use than four hundred miles a year plowing. if i kill someone plowing the insurance wont cover it. if i kill somone driving down to buy a pack of smokes the insurance wont cover it all anyway. and my insurance is WAY beyond any states minimum requirements. correct me if im wrong. many people would pay out all but the first fifty k in a non commercial accident am i right? im no insurance wizard but i actually suggest to people they buy an umbrella policy more than i suggest snow plow insurance. (long as they arent doing commercial accounts or getting out of the truck then i would suggest plowing and gl.).


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## starc

Up here in Ontario Canada, the average liability insurace policy required by most properties is 1,000,000 and some require 2,000,000


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## bribrius

starc;425275 said:


> Up here in Ontario Canada, the average liability insurace policy required by most properties is 1,000,000 and some require 2,000,000


they range from a million to five million here and above. thats for commercial though the original poster it talking about driveways and a private road right?


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## topdj

I told my wife that the 300k we have is just not enough anymore, I will have to check the homeowners too. looks like less than a MIL is just crazy stupid


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## JD Dave

The bottom line is, how much are you willing to gamble. I have way to much to lose to gamble on insurance. Why would you risk everthing to save a few bucks. If you can't afford insurance, don't plow snow. We have to have 5m just to bid on some contracts. Not having proper insurance isn't just cheap, it's stupid. Who cares what everyone else does, it's yourself you should be worried about. JMO


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## bribrius

JD Dave;425304 said:


> The bottom line is, how much are you willing to gamble. I have way to much to lose to gamble on insurance. Why would you risk everthing to save a few bucks. If you can't afford insurance, don't plow snow. We have to have 5m just to bid on some contracts. Not having proper insurance isn't just cheap, it's stupid. Who cares what everyone else does, it's yourself you should be worried about. JMO


if you cant afford the proper car insurance coverage dont drive a car.
if you cant afford the proper health insurance dont get sick.
if you cant afford the proper property insurance dont buy property.
its never ending dave. it really is. most people DONT have enough insurance. if someone said they had x amount of dollars to buy insurance i think i would put the priorty in this order .
good health insurance...(one of the number one reasons people declare bankruptcy or have poor credit.)
good personal car insurance.... (high likley hood of accident. though bankruptcy from it is uncommon)
good property insurance (not likley to need but definatley a possible bankruptcy risk)
umbrella policy (for when the limits on everything else gets maxed. or for unknown possible suits)
general liability
commericial automotive (plowing)

i would move plowing and gl up the list if it was for commercial accounts because of necessity and also the increased risk. what worries me is when people are so concerned over someone carrying a million dollars commercial to plow four driveways when there are are much more likley and devastating risks they are undertaking than plowing the four driveways. such as normal everyday good health insurance which is much more likey to drive them into bk. how many people have went bk from plowing driveways without commercial insurance? far less in fact im betting you can count them on your hand and your toes.
just my opinion


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## JD Dave

You can't get blood from a stone. If you have nothing to lose, then don't get proper insurance. What are you really going to make doing 4 driveways anyway? People can do what they want, all I'm saying is you have to weigh your risk.


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## bribrius

JD Dave;425331 said:


> You can't get blood from a stone. If you have nothing to lose, then don't get proper insurance. What are you really going to make doing 4 driveways anyway? People can do what they want, *all I'm saying is you have to weigh your risk*.




he's actually doing six driveways. but thanks. that was all i was looking for. just dont want to see new comers who are just beginning losing money trying to pay plow insurance and skipping out on more important insurances. dont want to discourage them from plowing either if that really is what they want to do. as they line up contracts they will have the money to afford the insurance. till then they are taking another risk on top of whatever other risks they encounter everyday.


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## Mick

bribrius;425274 said:


> mick. i hate to bring up the insurance thing. really do. and dont get me wrong i agree you SHOULD have insurance. i figure ill have them write it for three months then i cancel it. thing is though most people in this state have less coverage than i carry on my PERSONAL policy. now if im not mistaken if someone only carries fifty k which is the minimum in maine i believe anything OVER fifty k the insurance doesnt cover anyway. this gentlemen doesnt live in maine. think im just trying to get acrossed the point that although commercial insurance is definatley a good idea, especially gl if your salting and doing walks. to say that not having snow plow insurance is that taboo doesnt seem very realistic to me since people risk the same or more everyday in their personal vehicles driving to the store. i understand plows can cause damage but people spend more time driving on personal business than trucks spend plowing so i would say the greater risk lies with the person driving to the store for groceries who has low coverage than the plow truck plowing a driveway. like i said. im not sure but im thinking this. there is risk driving everyday. id be more concerned putting twenty k a year on my vehicle in personal use than four hundred miles a year plowing. if i kill someone plowing the insurance wont cover it. if i kill somone driving down to buy a pack of smokes the insurance wont cover it all anyway. and my insurance is WAY beyond any states minimum requirements. correct me if im wrong. many people would pay out all but the first fifty k in a non commercial accident am i right? im no insurance wizard but i actually suggest to people they buy an umbrella policy more than i suggest snow plow insurance. (long as they arent doing commercial accounts or getting out of the truck then i would suggest plowing and gl.).


Mainly, it's that any advice I give, I try to make sure it's "right"; not just the "get by" and that includes proper insurance. As far as I knows (based on conversations with my agent), an insurance company will not issue a policy for less than a one year period (rates are based on the year). I realize they take payments, but the policy, itself, is written for a year. If policy is cancelled for nonpayment or you cancel it early, you will not likely get another policy (ie: next winter, when you try the same thing). These things go on your insurance record, to which every insurance company has access.

The minimum policy is for $300,000. Then $500,000 or $1,000,000. Yes, some guys suggest an umbrella policy. But as far as out-of-pocket, it depends on the policy - I think mine is $2,500.


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## topdj

oh hell with insurance, get one of those new illegals with there new NYS license, thank you Spitzer. I will just buy him a beater truck/plow ride shot gun with the illegal and hook em with customers I know. Then spilt the cash 80/20 we make plowing, after all I bought the beater 
if something happens I just walk away. 

Ok Im just kidding


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## bribrius

topdj;425502 said:


> oh hell with insurance, get one of those new illegals with there new NYS license, thank you Spitzer. I will just buy him a beater truck/plow ride shot gun with the illegal and hook em with customers I know. Then spilt the cash 80/20 we make plowing, after all I bought the beater
> if something happens I just walk away.
> 
> Ok Im just kidding


thats actually a good idea. hmmmm.


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## powerjoke

i have no simpathy for someone who does'nt want to buy ins. the only reason is that we pay about$50,000 per year in all, that includes buisness liab. gen liab. equip., home, auto bla bla bla. 

IT IS AN EVIL NESECITY. AND JD AND EVERYONE ELSE IS RIGHT YOU HAVE TO HAVE IT, maybe not to the tune of 50k of premiums but you need something, Call GEICO i herd they save you 15%


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## bribrius

powerjoke;425576 said:


> i have no simpathy for someone who does'nt want to buy ins. the only reason is that we pay about$50,000 per year in all, that includes buisness liab. gen liab. equip., home, auto bla bla bla.
> 
> IT IS AN EVIL NESECITY. AND JD AND EVERYONE ELSE IS RIGHT YOU HAVE TO HAVE IT, maybe not to the tune of 50k of premiums but you need something, Call GEICO i herd they save you 15%


_simpathy_ = sympathy
_does'nt_ = doesn't
_buisness_ = business
_NESECITY_ = necessity
_herd_ = heard


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## kah68

Yeah to shed a little more light, I own a MFG. co. I have two trucks, one 'Yard Beater' one liscensed and insured truck, oh and another new addition. I plow my own 5 acre yard, my own home, my parent's place, my nephew's place and two employee's places, all free of charge. I have had two people plus one small road comittee approach me so I was looking into insurance, just wanted to know the rates people were paying, not questioning the right or wrong of insurance. BTW it was $ 2,500.00 for both trucks so I would likely add it to just one and keep the other one just doing my own (not for hire) stuff. I think I would need 30 accounts and a minimum of 10 events to break even.


Kirk


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## powerjoke

bribrius;425619 said:


> _simpathy_ = sympathy
> _does'nt_ = doesn't
> _buisness_ = business
> _NESECITY_ = necessity
> _herd_ = heard


funny guy we have here

are you trying to draw attention away from the fact you might not have ins.?


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## SnoFarmer

powerjoke;425781 said:


> funny guy we have here
> 
> are you trying to draw attention away from the fact you might not have ins.?


That is his MO. 
You ask him a question and he redirects it or just asks another question or a witty(kind of) come back...
Even tho now and then he is right on topic with some good info it is a rarity that he does so.
I think his goal is to post at least once in every thread 
even if he is not from Colorado..


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## bribrius

powerjoke;425781 said:


> funny guy we have here
> 
> are you trying to draw attention away from the fact you might not have ins.?


no. i actually posted previously that i dont have commercial and had intentions of trying to pick it up just for the winter instead of paying it yearly. If anything ive made my feelings on insurance all too clear and obvious. too the point im sick of discussing it. what is annoying me is when people are just starting up come on the site and members give them a hard time over insurance when anyone with a calculator can figure out that if these people are justing starting up the costs of insurance is more than they are making. it isnt about wether they SHOULD have insurance its about if they can afford it or if it is kept in line with how well the business is doing and how much its making. for instance. if your paying out 50k pj i would hope your business is pulling in a million or over. if your pulling in a couple hundred k and paying out fifty for insurance then i would say your expenses are not in line. if a startup plowing business is pulling in ten k and paying out three in insurance then i see a serious issue. some of these people are working just to pay for insurance? im also trying to help some members understand that some of the people on this site have much greater risks than insurance for plowing. they sacrifice in other areas (health insurance for the kids?) just to comply with some of the advice on this board. im trying to keep this in reality i guess and seeing lots of bs. mostly because those already in business are afraid someone without insurance is keeping their expenses lower and can bid lower? im not suggesting everyone go without insurance and understand the fears and risks involved. im just suggesting maybe a little "slack" and common sense?


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## heather lawn spray

Just got my renewal in
$6226
for 3 trucks and one support/supervisor's truck
$2,000,000
landscaping and snowplowing
Kitchener


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## JD Dave

kah68;425705 said:


> Yeah to shed a little more light, I own a MFG. co. I have two trucks, one 'Yard Beater' one liscensed and insured truck, oh and another new addition. I plow my own 5 acre yard, my own home, my parent's place, my nephew's place and two employee's places, all free of charge. I have had two people plus one small road comittee approach me so I was looking into insurance, just wanted to know the rates people were paying, not questioning the right or wrong of insurance. BTW it was $ 2,500.00 for both trucks so I would likely add it to just one and keep the other one just doing my own (not for hire) stuff. I think I would need 30 accounts and a minimum of 10 events to break even.
> 
> Kirk


All these details are very helpfull. You have too much to lose not to have insurance. Would you let someone else plow your 5 acre yard without insurance?


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## SnoFarmer

bribrius;425885 said:


> what is annoying me is when people are just starting up come on the site and members give them a hard time over insurance when anyone with a calculator can figure out that if these people are justing starting up the costs of insurance is more than they are making. it isnt about wether they SHOULD have insurance its about if they can afford itim not suggesting everyone go without insurance and understand the fears and risks involved. im just suggesting maybe a little "slack" and common sense?


Common sense tells me,
If the cost of INS is more than what they are making they should not be in business and all likelihood their low-ballers.

Lawsuit time,
Is the Judge going to cut you some slack because you are a poor (stupid) businessman? No he will make an example out of you.

Hes not going to say, It's o.k. bribri I understand you do not know how much to charge to cover your costs and to make a profit and you surly do not have to pay their hospital bills........


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## Mick

I always tell people; It's when you start out that you really need insurance. Whether it's plowing snow or working in the woods (with protective gear as insurance), you're more likely to have something go wrong in the beginning as you are once you've gained experience (as measured by the amount of time spent in the activity against the likelihood of a accident). I agree with SnoFarmer - Do it right or don't do it at all.


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## Ole Tower

*Out Ragious Plow Insurance*

as an Ole Timer I have to Agree w/ MICK & SnoFarmer Every One Plowing should have Insurance I wouldn*t Plow w/ out IT as You never Know? when something? gonna Happen? & it only Takes One Mishap! to Turn Your WORLD Up-Side DOWN--but--I Don*t think? many locally Do have Insurance? I Dono WHY? just a Feeling?? as here Locally Insurance Cos must be Rolling $$ if? every 4X4 w/ a Plow I See has Insurance? I Know I have given Thought?? to Giving UP Plowing? Due to the High Cost of Plowing Insurance! & All the Other Operating Costs as I tell It like I See IT & by Doing So! Piss a lot of You Guys OFF! as to ME? Our Society seems to have a Lot of middel Men w/ their Hands in Our Pockets! in any Business before any Business can even Start to make any MONEY! I personally as an Ole Plower joined this Snow Site To Assist the New Bees mostly but after Reading the many Leget Questions? & reading the many OFF topic Answers! which have Nothing Really to DO w/ the Leget Question Asked? I Dono? & here as in Our Society theres a Difinate Seperation of the Classes! as the $$ Guys ae constantly *****ung about All the Guys w/ Older Equipment--thus! {the Low Ballers} & where Were All Attempting to Under Bid One Other to Get that JOB! the TRUTH is We ALL {Low Ballers} YOU-ME! Every Body!! So whats the Big Deal? if? You have a New Truck & Plow as thats Your Choice! as Most have Older Ones & Can & often DO operate w/ out Insurance? thats Their Choice! & thats NO Skin Off your Butt if they DO get SUED! as in the SUEING Business first of ALL Whoever? is Being SUED? has to Have Some thing? Worth Sueing Over! & Common Scense Dictates!! any GUY w/ an Ole Beater Don*t Look like He has Anything Worth Sueing for? NO Nice HOME as He Lives in an Appartment Complex w/a Wife & Three? Kids? & Hes Driving an Ole Beater & SUEING HIM is a Waste of Time & MONEY!!--but if He Has a New Truck? Nice?*& Shinny? Hes More Libal to Get SUED! as It Appears? Hes Worth SUEING! so this Plowing Insurance thing is All in the Way One Looks at IT?--what I*M saying? IS!! the More Prospress YOU Look? the More Likley YOU will get SUED! as its a Common Scense Thing! Enough SAID! --Ole Tower--


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## SnoFarmer

Ole Tower;432245 said:


> Were All Attempting to Under Bid One Other to Get that JOB! the TRUTH is We ALL {Low Ballers} YOU-ME! Every Body!!
> 
> I do not try to under bid to get the contract. If you get sucked in to this all you are doing is robbing your self. There is no money in lowballing
> 
> So whats the Big Deal? if? You have a New Truck & Plow as thats Your Choice! as Most have Older Ones & Can & often DO operate w/ out Insurance? thats Their Choice! & thats NO Skin Off your Butt if they DO get SUED!
> You are right. No skin off of mine or yours.
> But as you stated you joined this site to help folks out.
> Giving someone the heads up on why they need INS is helping out, so we bother telling them that they need the proper INS coverage.
> 
> as in the SUEING Business first of ALL Whoever? is Being SUED? has to Have Some thing? Worth Sueing Over! & Common Scense Dictates!! any GUY w/ an Ole Beater Don*t Look like He has Anything Worth Sueing for? NO Nice HOME as He Lives in an Appartment Complex w/a Wife & Three? Kids? & Hes Driving an Ole Beater & SUEING HIM is a Waste of Time & MONEY!!
> If he should get sued he could loose every thing he has , he could end up homeless with only the shirt on his back and his wages will be garnished for the rest of his life.
> You are right if you sue him you may get nothing but his financial life is ruined
> 
> --but if He Has a New Truck? Nice?*& Shinny? Hes More Libal to Get SUED! as It Appears? Hes Worth SUEING! so this Plowing Insurance thing is All in the Way One Looks at IT?--what I*M saying? IS!! the More Prospress YOU Look? the More Likley YOU will get SUED!
> 
> You are right it may make you a target for a scam.
> 
> as its a Common Scense Thing! Enough SAID! --Ole Tower--


lol common sense, Websters deff. a consensus of a group of people.
What if this group of people were not that bright.

One more thing what do you have against new shinny trucks.
I thought you got a new one your self not that long ago?


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## bribrius

i like new shiny trucks as long as im not the one paying for it. i couldnt justify the expense.


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## Mick

If it's up to the individual whether to have plowing insurance; then it should follow that there would be no need for other types of vehicle insurance - ie: regular car insurance. But most States/Provinces require a minimum level of insurance to register and operate a car on public roads. Basic insurance is for the protection of the "other guy", not the owner of the vehicle that is insured. So, it follows that the same should hold for General Liability and Commercial Vehicle insurance. If we can accept that in *most *cases, regular vehicle insurance will not be in effect while plowing snow (we always get some who will argue that point that about *their* insurance), then without GL and CV, a person is uninsured while plowing. At best, you are not demonstrating professional ethics. As with vehicle insurance, it is not about whether the person has anything to lose in a lawsuit; it is about providing coverage for the unforeseen. As with anything else, the cost of insurance is a cost of doing business. If you can't get the insurance for whatever reason; don't go into that business.


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## basher

bribrius;425885 said:


> no. if these people are justing starting up the costs of insurance is more than they are making.
> 
> Very few business start profitable. Insurance is one of those overheads like truck payments, taxes, and payroll. As an owner you can opt out of lot's of insurance
> and "taxes" state unemployment, Workman's comp, Health care but if you own anything insurance is important.
> 
> i if a startup plowing business is pulling in ten k and paying out three in insurance then i see a serious issue. some of these people are working just to pay for insurance?
> 
> 10K plowing paying 3K insurance for just plowing insurance, get out of plowing. 10K of plowing and 3K covering me for the whole year's truck and GL premium that would be a good deal.
> 
> If that 3 in insurance im also trying to help some members understand that some of the people on this site have much greater risks than insurance for plowing.
> 
> Not so; unless they are participating in at risk behavior.
> 
> they sacrifice in other areas (health insurance for the kids?) just to comply with some of the advice on this board.
> 
> I would never suggest canceling health care for a child. State child health insurance programs abound, PA calls their's CHIP. Insuring the home and method of providing income for shelter, food, clothes, education and a stable environment is as important as the health. it's possible to manage to pay insurance and continue to do other things.
> 
> im trying to keep this in reality i guess and seeing lots of bs. mostly because those already in business are afraid someone without insurance is keeping their expenses lower and can bid lower? im not suggesting everyone go without insurance and understand the fears and risks involved. im just suggesting maybe a little "slack" and common sense?


A little common sense, can you afford 20K to defend a lawsuit? 
Is your driving/insurance record so bad that you are in the "high risk" category driving your cost up dramatically? 
Do you want to be like the guy who had a body shop in town that had a fire (he discharged his grinder sparks into a pan of thinner, and didn't have an extinguisher handy?) Destroyed the building and contents, he had no insurance, no GL, no garage keepers, and was found at fault (duh!.) He has been successfully sued by a couple insurance companies that insured cars he was working on, his landlord's insurance company, 2 of the guys who had classic car projects in the shop that didn't have auto insurance. He was forced into bankruptcy by the court awards and leinholders (snap-on, Hunter, and the spray booth provider) has sold his house's, and made pretty much desolate. This guy had a good business, did good work, was making money, he was a personal friend and we argued over this more then once. He always said the money he'd spend on insurance was buying his beach house. Lack of insurance ruined a man, a family, and a business and one one was hurt in the incedent. You don't think this would happen in a slip and fall with head trauma suit?

I think the common sense is to have insurance.

As far as being afraid of un-insured business, I am, afraid to have them work on my vehicles, property, or self.

JMO


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## Mick

Mick;432304 said:


> ...regular vehicle insurance will not be in effect while plowing snow/


I was corrected by PM on the terminology which should read "... *personal* policy of vehicle insurance ..."


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## joeco129

I have a $1,000,000 general liability policy for my construction business that includes plowing and I only pay $625.00 a year... Excellent company for contractors... Took me years to find someone so reasonable.... 

Can I post the insurance company name on here?


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## lodogg89

yea, some of you guys are getting raped, i also carry 1 million in coverge, includes, my lawn and landscaping stuff, as well as snow in the winter. it is about 35 bucks a month for that


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## joeco129

The company I was referring to for $625.00 for the year... $1,000,000 general liability, including plowing is NGM, Nation Grange Mutual Insurance Company.... 55 West Street, Keene, NH 03431.

My Insurance agent from CT found them... They service all over the US. I also insure my truck, trailer and all tools and equipment... My truck, enlcosed 20 foot trailer and $50K worth of tools, runs me $1800 per year... plus the $625.00 for the liability and plowing coverage... not bad at all for what I am getting.... Call them and good luck!


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## MSS Mow

lodogg89;432417 said:


> yea, some of you guys are getting raped, i also carry 1 million in coverge, includes, my lawn and landscaping stuff, as well as snow in the winter. it is about 35 bucks a month for that


what company do you use for for only $420 per year??


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## frostypuck

*Plow Insurance*

Here in Mass., I was quoted $1907 for $500,000 plowing coverage, on top of the extra cost of insuring and registering the vehicle as a commercial vehicle rather than as a personal vehicle. The only positive thing is that the policy is good for one year, so I don't have to go down to my ins. agent with the check until there's actually snow in the forecast. The longer it doesn't snow, the longer my policy will be good for next year, I guess.


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