# How to get shoveling done and make a profit



## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Any suggestions on how to get residential sidewalks shoveled without wasting ALL revenue on labor? We pay $20-25 / hour and it is easy work. I can do 6-10 accounts an hour and at about $8 per account that is almost $50 an hour, going slow. I don't understand why our guys are so slow at it. We don't get much snow in SE Michigan anyway, and probably 1/4 or 1/3 of the work time is just riding around in a truck. Despite how easy it is, I still can't find guys with good work ethic who can shovel properly for 4-6 hours and still get it a reasonable amount of accounts done. They have 30-inch "snow plow" shovels and I've shown them how to walk and windrow/push it aside to clear a sidewalk fast and easy. But they still either do it too slow or don't clear enough of the sidewalk.

Anybody else have these same problems and just stop offering residential sidewalk services?

We use tractors to clear the drives and I am not going to have the drivers get out and shovel. They can be way more profitable staying in the cab.

Do any of you send out solo guys and find that gets the shovel work done faster? We don't have enough vehicles to do that yet, but I think that would save 20-30% of our wasted time and money right now.
We quote the sidewalk as a separate service. We charged $95 for the season for a front door path this year, and $125-150 for the season if the client had a public sidewalk to clear too.

I'm trying to decide what to do next year, drop the shoveling or charge a lot more or recruit harder or pay higher wages, or a mix of these. But if we drop the shovel service or jack the price up too high, we will lose many clients. I'm thinking maybe 30% (+) of them. Especially if a few more local services get back in the business in the next year or two. Right now we are one of maybe 3 choices in town so competition is not hard yet.

Help and advice, please. Thank you!


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

What if you switch over to light weight single stage snow throwers?


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

You missed this thread just recently?

https://www.plowsite.com/threads/best-sidewalk-machine.181772/


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## SilverPine (Dec 7, 2018)

I find a team of 3-4 works best. When out solo, it starts becoming a mental challenge when shoveling. Can start to feel overwhelming when you are by yourself.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

RichardBongIII said:


> What if you switch over to light weight single stage snow throwers?


Unless there's more than 3" on the ground, or long strait pushes, me and my guys will always grab a shovel. Nearly just as fast as a blower and much easier on a guy to load/unload.



jato said:


> Anybody else have these same problems and just stop offering residential sidewalk services?


yes. I think we're all struggling with labor right now. Seems to be a constant issue in our industry that's gotten even worse over the last 2 years.
I'm wondering if you could do the following:

-Slight price increase
10-20%increase on the seasonal 
-slight wage decrease 
Go from $20-25 to $17-22. I'm all for paying guys what their worth, and we always need to remember that employees will (generally) never match the owners work ethic or production levels, but it looks like your pay is on the high side and your guys are still underperforming. Maybe you could cut wages a few dollars but offer a bonus if they got all their properties done on time and with no complaints.

I think just moving those 2 numbers (raise prices, cut costs) would get you your profit back, but maybe not


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Hourly employees are never going to overwork themselves to get done in a certain time frame.

Pay them minimum wage.
Then you give them a bonus/ tip per sidewalk /residence that is serviced correctly and on time.

this usually gives people the incentive to do as many as they can in the shortest amount of time.

In the option of having a snowblower or shovel depends on the snow snow density and you’re getting tired sometimes small single stage can do them pretty quick
And at times you can run up and down the Sidewalks and get it done before you could get the snowblower oot


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

jato said:


> Despite how easy it is, I still can't find guys with good work ethic who can shovel properly for 4-6 hours and still get it a reasonable amount of accounts done.


Just so we have a baseline, how many driveways per hour are you yourself shoveling right now?


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Kinport said:


> Unless there's more than 3" on the ground, or long strait pushes, me and my guys will always grab a shovel. Nearly just as fast as a blower and much easier on a guy to load/unload.
> 
> yes. I think we're all struggling with labor right now. Seems to be a constant issue in our industry that's gotten even worse over the last 2 years.
> I'm wondering if you could do the following:
> ...


I was going with maximizing the workforce that is doing okay and replacing the other shovelers with mechanization.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RichardBongIII said:


> I was going with maximizing the workforce that is doing okay and replacing the other shovelers with mechanization.


Which won't help...this is where real life experience trumps theory.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Which won't help...this is where real life experience trumps theory.


NO, no one ever in the real world tries to maximize their workforce through mechanization. Never, happens--right that's why you're still snow rolling right?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Yes, We still roll snow.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Hydromaster said:


> Yes, We still roll snow.


With the big roller-- awesome.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RichardBongIII said:


> NO, no one ever in the real world tries to maximize their workforce through mechanization. Never, happens--right that's why you're still snow rolling right?


That's not what I said.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

RichardBongIII said:


> With the big roller-- awesome.


Yes


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Hydromaster said:


> Yes
> View attachment 232199


Funny that looks like a ski resort. And they would use a roller for grooming trails. Let's see the side walks now?


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

RichardBongIII said:


> Funny that looks like a ski resort. And they would use a roller for grooming trails. Let's see the side walks now?


When did they ever roll snow on the sidewalks? And you said nobody rolls snow anymore, and they do.


RichardBongIII said:


> NO, no one ever in the real world tries to maximize their workforce through mechanization. Never, happens--right that's why you're still snow rolling right?


And you were talking about the sidewalks here, right?


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Hydromaster said:


> When did they ever roll snow on the sidewalks? And you said nobody rolls snow anymore, and they do.
> 
> And you were talking about the sidewalks here, right


I am too tired to even try to care about what you're trying to get at now.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

jato said:


> Any suggestions on how to get residential sidewalks shoveled without wasting ALL revenue on labor? We pay $20-25 / hour and it is easy work. I can do 6-10 accounts an hour and at about $8 per account that is almost $50 an hour, going slow. I don't understand why our guys are so slow at it. We don't get much snow in SE Michigan anyway, and probably 1/4 or 1/3 of the work time is just riding around in a truck. Despite how easy it is, I still can't find guys with good work ethic who can shovel properly for 4-6 hours and still get it a reasonable amount of accounts done. They have 30-inch "snow plow" shovels and I've shown them how to walk and windrow/push it aside to clear a sidewalk fast and easy. But they still either do it too slow or don't clear enough of the sidewalk.
> 
> Anybody else have these same problems and just stop offering residential sidewalk services?
> 
> ...


I subbed my walks oot to 2 guys, each had their own route, being subs each drove themselves, I gave them shovels, ice melt, pay rate was by accumulation and paid by the job/sit which was 30% less than I was charging the customer. Had a pretty tight route and had a couple subdivisions with customers next to each other which took aboot 5-7min each depending on accumulation. Including travel time they would average $60/hr for a 1-4" storm, 4-8" tier brought them up to $85/hr. I paid at the end of the storm and they got 1099'd.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

Must have been great back in the day @BUFF but that doesn't fly in NY or most states. Now with comp requirements on all subs, it doesn't work so easy. I miss the good old days.

We're already considering the box truck or pickup route for a dedicated crew in the next few years. The way of the world.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

https://www.mtechcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Holder-C-70-Tractors-Combined.pdf
Something like this might be the ticket for you.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Kvston said:


> Must have been great back in the day @BUFF but that doesn't fly in NY or most states. Now with comp requirements on all subs, it doesn't work so easy. I miss the good old days.
> 
> We're already considering the box truck or pickup route for a dedicated crew in the next few years. The way of the world.


Some of the reason why I stopped and now just a operator monkey....


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

I hear ya man. Your rates drop if you come to the Adirondacks by chance?


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Kvston said:


> I hear ya man. Your rates drop if you come to the Adirondacks by chance?


Yeah..... No... Left New England in '78 and will never go back. Colo is getting to the point were I'm heading north to Wyo in a year or so.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I dont work in your market, being a solo I never compete on price. If something doesnt work it doesnt work. By your own admission you think raising your price will instantly negate 30% of your business...
Lets use that, if you doubled your price thats $95 to $190 lets go off the deepend and say you lose 50%.... You will be doing 1/2 the work for the same money you turn over now on it...


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

We can't trailer a ride on unit yet, because we frequently have accounts that are 8+ houses apart.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

RichardBongIII said:


> What if you switch over to light weight single stage snow throwers?


30" shovel is much faster than a 21" blower. We have blowers ready if there's a storm of heavy snow over 6" though.
Maybe with the blowers, the guys would clear a wider path due to the return trip. But it would definitely not save any time.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

jato said:


> We can't trailer a ride on unit yet, because we frequently have accounts that are 8+ houses apart.


that's a problem.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Train your customers...shoveling is for the birds on residentials


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

cwren2472 said:


> Just so we have a baseline, how many driveways per hour are you yourself shoveling right now?


I can do about 5-7 per hour. But we have some areas where we have 4-6 neighbors and those each take 5 mins. So that's more like a 10+ per hour speed.

I regularly do a route with 15 and it takes me 2hrs - 2:15. All but 4 of the stops require a 1-2min drive between them. So I'm doing about 6-7 per hour solo, with the same shovel the guys are using.

But I agree an employee is never going to stay as focused as the owner. I don't mess with my phone, I don't take a break, I just keep moving.

Like I think Hydro suggested earlier, we have a hybrid pay structure right now. I tell them the route is worth "X" dollars and that 2 guys working fast should bring in about $30+ per hour. One guy working fast alone can make $50+ per hour. Because each stop pays $6-10. The ones with sidewalks pay more. I tell the guys that if something goes wrong, like a flat tire or whatever, they will always get at least $15-16 per hour. But so far they've made about $18/hr. Unfortunately that means it took them 30+ man-hours to get it done. Which in my opinion is crazy and lazy.
There are currently 77 stops, and on average a 2-man crew should be able to get 5 done per hour. For a total of 15-17 man hours, and an hourly pay of about $40/hr. Or so I thought.
I thought guys would want to really hammer it out and go home faster, but that is not the case. Apparently they want to stay out for 8-10 hours. This wouldn't bother me if the work was done right. But walks were cleared only the width of one shovel from what I saw the next morning.

They are either taking forever getting into and out of the truck, or they are shoveling slow as heck. I have not had a chance to trail them and observe this yet. But next storm if I don't have to drive a tractor that is what I'm gonna do. (We had a driver out with Covid last week and I was tied up driving).


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

RichardBongIII said:


> that's a problem.


Yes it is the first year we grew to a bigger residential service, so density is not high yet. Within 3 years we want density to be much higher. These locations are all within an 8 sq mile area. But we like I think most other companies, can't justify buying a $10k snowrator and it wouldn't save us any time anyway.

Also, after the storm we are the first in every neighborhood we arrive at, and these side streets are never plowed. I don't trust employees pulling a trailer in deep snow. Maybe next year we will have a reliable driver and backup who could do that... but if they're that good, I wouldn't want them shoveling anyway. I'd put them in a tractor.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> Yes
> View attachment 232199


Wow I never know rolling existed.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

BUFF said:


> I subbed my walks oot to 2 guys, each had their own route, being subs each drove themselves, I gave them shovels, ice melt, pay rate was by accumulation and paid by the job/sit which was 30% less than I was charging the customer. Had a pretty tight route and had a couple subdivisions with customers next to each other which took aboot 5-7min each depending on accumulation. Including travel time they would average $60/hr for a 1-4" storm, 4-8" tier brought them up to $85/hr. I paid at the end of the storm and they got 1099'd.


We could do that without subbing them. I checked with our insurance. Employees can use their own vehicles to go from job site to job site and still be covered by our policy. I just need to make sure their auto ins coverage is not too low. But anyway, these kids I have working right now do not have 4wd vehicles and they can't get thru these neighborhoods, some of which are hilly. I want all this done within 8 hours of when the snow stops. That's the goal. We are there with the driveways, done in about 5 hours. So I feel it's ridiculous that our shoveling is taking so long.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mr.Markus said:


> I dont work in your market, being a solo I never compete on price. If something doesnt work it doesnt work. By your own admission you think raising your price will instantly negate 30% of your business...
> Lets use that, if you doubled your price thats $95 to $190 lets go off the deepend and say you lose 50%.... You will be doing 1/2 the work for the same money you turn over now on it...


Yes I hear that, and I'm with you on that. Right now geographically we are covering nearly the whole town with 2 units, and adding stops next year will not add much extra distance per stop. I was nervous about the driveways in November, but now I see I've likely undercharged for the shoveling, and either under-trained my guys or not incentivized the work enough.

I think I need to poll clients to see how important shoveling is.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Thank you everyone for the advice.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

RichardBongIII said:


> https://www.mtechcompany.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Holder-C-70-Tractors-Combined.pdf
> Something like this might be the ticket for you.


Lottery tickets might get me there. Honestly if it can be 46" wide and quickly hook/unhook a 60" blower and a v-blade, I think we could use it. But at $130k it would need to be doing 5-7 small commercial lots, and all the resi sidewalks (the next morning), and also used as a deicing vehicle for lighter snows. It is not impossible, but at <$80k it would be much more possible. 
I like that it can do about 25mph.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

jato said:


> Lottery tickets might get me there. Honestly if it can be 46" wide and quickly hook/unhook a 60" blower and a v-blade, I think we could use it. But at $130k it would need to be doing 5-7 small commercial lots, and all the resi sidewalks (the next morning), and also used as a deicing vehicle for lighter snows. It is not impossible, but at <$80k it would be much more possible.
> I like that it can do about 25mph.


It was more of an example. I was thinking used as well.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

jato said:


> Yes I think so. But I've realized I need to poll them and ask how important the walks are. I posted this Q as a separate thread and got some feedback there. too.
> 
> Do you offer shoveling at all, or just stick to drives / lots?


I don't do very much residential, I only have 7 total, I'm mostly all commercial. My advice would be to not price it separately. Either offer a full service or just the driveway. If you're only offering full service then your price includes walkways / sidewalks. You can then have a dedicated walkway person who can hopefully stay ahead of your tractors.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

jato said:


> Yes I hear that, and I'm with you on that. Right now geographically we are covering nearly the whole town with 2 units, and adding stops next year will not add much extra distance per stop. I was nervous about the driveways in November, but now I see I've likely undercharged for the shoveling, and either under-trained my guys or not incentivized the work enough.
> 
> I think I need to poll clients to see how important shoveling is.


The best poll is money. I get breaking everything down to minutes and relying on employees to hit time goals, and quality , but what are you in business for?
Walkways are usually more tedious and require more servicing than simply plowing, people can deal with small drifts along the curb of their driveway but drifting on a sidewalk usually fills it full. 
My sidewalks/walkways get more servicing than my lots, (which to me is a pita).
i also dont get out to shovel unless its a min charge. ($35) I spell it out. You can do it yourself if you find it expensive. Even at that you will get the guy that leaves it until its an actual job and a half to open it up. Or a big storm and 3 ft of drifting, " Ok, Ill pay the $35 now"
Pricing it at $6-7. No way....
No matter what you do you need to be specific in the parameters, customers always look for the way to best suit them or their budget, they could care less about your criteria for making money in fact they will laugh at you working your tail off for nothing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm hating walks this year. It's always been a decently profitable service in the past, but for some reason details and getting the work done in a timely manner has been an issue for me as well. 

I just don't understand, from people not following directions to just skipping entire sections, it's been frustrating.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm hating walks this year. It's always been a decently profitable service in the past, but for some reason details and getting the work done in a timely manner has been an issue for me as well.
> 
> I just don't understand, from people not following directions to just skipping entire sections, it's been frustrating.


Nobody wants to work


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

m_ice said:


> Nobody wants to work


It's not even that...it's like you have to hold them by the hand. We have maps, we've gone through the routes, we've had talks about stuff that is getting missed.

It's right up there with the not hearing the phone after being reminded to leave your phone on.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

@jato

How far away is your shop from the residential neighborhoods you work in?

You said I think 77 total residential houses and sidewalks? I started with snowplow shovels(and dominator scoop shovels). Quickly realised how important the Honda 720 paddle blowers worked in our storms. Wasted money on a few different types of Honda and Airens 2 stage blowers for the big snowfalls. Then we went with Aebi 2 wheel walk behind tractors with either a broom setup or snow blowers. Then onto the Rapid Mondo(dealer is much closer) 2 wheeled tractors. Eventually we went all in for sidewalks. The Holder X45/i. Those tractors are used soley for sidewalks.

Next question. Does your shoveling crew have to do the pull snow back a few feet from the front of garage doors and the like? Do they shovel walkways/sidewalks to front doors and do the steps and porches or landings?

One guy in a Holder X45i could easily do all of the front of property sidewalks very easily and quickly. And hop to the next place. All in a warm cabbed strong little vehicle with superb vision.

One thing about those Holder X45i's, the vast majority of our residentials are in upper class neighborhoods. There is usually a literal sidewalk or often 2 sidewalks to the front door and generally a second door/service entrance. The X45i's can remove snow right upto the dang steps. It is so nice that they work so well for all types of sidewalks.

The real bonus in the room? You find a competent operator, pay him/her well, and they will clamor over wanting to use these little Holder tractors. The machine makes this laborious labor much more palatable. Health and safety and comfort makes the working conditions quite enjoyable.

Again I am not sure what type of economic neighborhoods you do snow removal in. You move up to something like an X45i and you will be able to branch out to more profitable accounts and neighborhoods as well.

Were these exapensive tools(X45i) and their broom and blower attachments worth the 10 year investment? 100% absolutely in our eyes.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> It's not even that...it's like you have to hold them by the hand. We have maps, we've gone through the routes, we've had talks about stuff that is getting missed.
> 
> It's right up there with the not hearing the phone after being reminded to leave your phone on.


As an employer you should have a hearing,vision,drug,mental competency, and strength test completed before accepting a resume....
This can include a heavy stone office overhead door with a sign on the outside, 
"All applicants!!! At your designated appointment time ring bell, wait for instruction before reciting password answer of the square root of 81, Lift and enter."


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> As an employer you should have a hearing,vision,drug,mental competency, and strength test completed before accepting a resume....
> This can include a heavy stone office overhead door with a sign on the outside,
> "All applicants!!! At your designated appointment time ring bell, wait for instruction before reciting password answer of the square root of 81, Lift and enter."


Can't be that selective these days.... if they have a valid DL and clean record it's a win....


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

BUFF said:


> Can't be that selective these days....


Thats why I work alone.... no one rings the bell.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm hating walks this year. It's always been a decently profitable service in the past, but for some reason details and getting the work done in a timely manner has been an issue for me as well.
> 
> I just don't understand, from people not following directions to just skipping entire sections, it's been frustrating.


Yup. I don't have much to compare this to, but it has been hard for me to keep believing in these guys basic ability to follow directions. I'd love to put one guy in a machine on this, but we don't have the money for that yet. And I have no idea if a 46-48" wide tractor would fit on some of our older downtown area neighborhood sidewalks. Some of them seem v narrow. I need to go measure.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mr.Markus said:


> The best poll is money. I get breaking everything down to minutes and relying on employees to hit time goals, and quality , but what are you in business for?
> Walkways are usually more tedious and require more servicing than simply plowing, people can deal with small drifts along the curb of their driveway but drifting on a sidewalk usually fills it full.
> My sidewalks/walkways get more servicing than my lots, (which to me is a pita).
> i also dont get out to shovel unless its a min charge. ($35) I spell it out. You can do it yourself if you find it expensive. Even at that you will get the guy that leaves it until its an actual job and a half to open it up. Or a big storm and 3 ft of drifting, " Ok, Ill pay the $35 now"
> ...


We charge for the walks $95-125 on average in advance at the start of the season. $95 is if it's just front of the garage door and a short Amazon delivery path to the front door. The $6-7 I mentioned is the payroll going out the door to get it done (not incl payroll taxes).

The walks don't have to be perfect because 90% of these people don't use their sidewalks or their own front door anyway, even in the summer. I'm just trying to find a way to get them cleared at least 10x per season without losing 95% of that revenue.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Ice-sage said:


> @jato
> 
> How far away is your shop from the residential neighborhoods you work in?
> 
> ...


Yes we have to clear it away from the front of the garage. 
Our garage is on the east side of our service area. It's 2 minutes on side streets to the first stop, and about 35 stops are within a 1.5 mile radius of there. 
If we had a tractor like that Holder, which could do 25mph, yes it could cover everything we have in terms of public walks, and all the fronts of the garages. But then the driver would have to hop out and do the front door paths and it would turn from a 5 hour job into a 10+ hour job.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jato said:


> Yes we have to clear it away from the front of the garage.
> Our garage is on the east side of our service area. It's 2 minutes on side streets to the first stop, and about 35 stops are within a 1.5 mile radius of there.
> If we had a tractor like that Holder, which could do 25mph, yes it could cover everything we have in terms of public walks, and all the fronts of the garages. But then the driver would have to hop out and do the front door paths and it would turn from a 5 hour job into a 10+ hour job.


The Hokder is more expensive than your tractor/blower setups.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

What does being done ontime mean? When did snow start following a schedule?


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

jato said:


> Yes we have to clear it away from the front of the garage.
> Our garage is on the east side of our service area. It's 2 minutes on side streets to the first stop, and about 35 stops are within a 1.5 mile radius of there.
> If we had a tractor like that Holder, which could do 25mph, yes it could cover everything we have in terms of public walks, and all the fronts of the garages. But then the driver would have to hop out and do the front door paths and it would turn from a 5 hour job into a 10+ hour job.


I am talking about the Holder X45i, not the C60/70.

Yes. And that is one laborer doing the job of 2-3. Rather pay one guy 5-8 or 8-10 hours than 2 guys at 8-10 hours. Plus the one guy has a vehicle he rides around in that does over three quarters of his workload.

Case study here. There is a 30 year old gentleman here that does 56 residentials all by himself. He has a Kubota RTV with either a snowblower or broom on the front. And as of 2 storms ago, copied another company here and has a Daniels back drag pull plow on the back. He has a Toro paddle blower to do sidewalks and walkways upto front porches or steps. We've watched him work. Super efficient. He told me he averages between 8 to 12 hours to do his route depending on the amount of snow that has fallen. That is still impressive for a one man show.

The conclusion is one does not neccessarily need a truck and plow to do residentials. We only use Holder tractors to do residentials. No plowing. Only blowing or brooming. We have not seen any other setup even come close to the speed and efficiency that we can roll through each property.

It is kind of like stand on mowers changed the lawn industry quite heavily. Same would go for winter maintenence. You've got the 4 big players with their stand on units. Then you've got Holder, Multione/hog, maybe Avant. The stand ons are slow and underpowered. And the operator is out in the elements. The tractors are way faster travel/roadspeed, enclosed heated cabs, joystick and wheel simplicity to functionally run them, and the tractors come in multiple sizes and powerplants.

We have tried every avenue of machines and trucks for residentials. Nothing beats these little tractors bar none.
The labor savings alone is what makes these machines work. We would need 20-25 shovelors for the work 4 people do in the Holder X45i's. It is a no brainer. Also having the right tools for the job is what keeps the best operators always with us and keeping them happy, safe and healthy.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mark Oomkes said:


> The Hokder is more expensive than your tractor/blower setups.


Yes that's why I don't see it happening. We can make more $$ with tractors. The holder would need to be bought used, and would need to clear 150+ sidewalks, plus a few small commercial areas downtown, to be as profitable as a tractor.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mudly said:


> What does being done ontime mean? When did snow start following a schedule?


We go out when the storm ends and get the driveways all done in about 5-6 hours. If the walks take 12+ hours to get done, the calls and e-mails start to roll in. Which I don't answer until the next day anyway... but I'm trying to keep people happy so we can grow. I also can't stay out working or at the garage for 15 hours. I'm not going to do it that way.

I need guys who can get it done in 8-10 hours, but I just don't know how to get them there.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

jato said:


> We go out when the storm ends and get the driveways all done in about 5-6 hours. If the walks take 12+ hours to get done, the calls and e-mails start to roll in. Which I don't answer until the next day anyway... but I'm trying to keep people happy so we can grow. I also can't stay out working or at the garage for 15 hours. I'm not going to do it that way.
> 
> I need guys who can get it done in 8-10 hours, but I just don't know how to get them there.


I don't think you're going to be able to do it with your guys jumping in and out of the tractor at every property. Have a dedicated walkway person. You'll be able to take on more properties and be able to do them in the 8 - 10 hours.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

jato said:


> We go out when the storm ends and get the driveways all done in about 5-6 hours. If the walks take 12+ hours to get done, the calls and e-mails start to roll in. Which I don't answer until the next day anyway... but I'm trying to keep people happy so we can grow. I also can't stay out working or at the garage for 15 hours. I'm not going to do it that way.
> 
> I need guys who can get it done in 8-10 hours, but I just don't know how to get them there.


I thought you mentioned this somewhere, but just for a clarification, are you on the north side of detroit or the South-western side of detroit?
Also are you still looking for an inverted blower?


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I don't think you're going to be able to do it with your guys jumping in and out of the tractor at every property. Have a dedicated walkway person. You'll be able to take on more properties and be able to do them in the 8 - 10 hours.


Both the 2-man and 3-man crews we tried were too slow to function. They both lost money. If trucks were cheaper maybe we could afford 3 trucks with 4x4 and put a guy in each. But what a waste that would be.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

jato said:


> Both the 2-man and 3-man crews we tried were too slow to function. They both lost money. If trucks were cheaper maybe we could afford 3 trucks with 4x4 and put a guy in each. But what a waste that would be.


My mistake, I thought you had the guys in the tractors getting out to do the walkways. Are the people you are using for shovelling hired on? Or do you just pay them hourly when you need them?


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> My mistake, I thought you had the guys in the tractors getting out to do the walkways. Are the people you are using for shovelling hired on? Or do you just pay them hourly when you need them?


Right on. They are just paid to work when snow comes. We don't have enough work to keep the shovelers busy thru the season. When it doesn't snow for more than a week we pay them for about 5 hours anyway. The tractor drivers are paid different, we pay them a base amount every 2 weeks even if it doesn't snow. Next year it might be better to offer a stable base pay to 2 shovelers and just have them work their tails off when it snows. I don't know.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I thought you mentioned this somewhere, but just for a clarification, are you on the north side of detroit or the South-western side of detroit?
> Also are you still looking for an inverted blower?


North side, Rochester. Right now we don't need one, but yes this summer I want to buy one new or slightly used inverted blower so I can move one of the ancient ones we have now to backup duty. Will be looking for 74-80".


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

@jato

Alright. Just throwing some more ideas around. So you have how many employees doing your entire snow route including yourself? 4, 5, 6, 7 guys?

You stated 77 residentials plus varying city work on sidewalks as well?

All of your residentials are within an 8 mile radius? That is actually pretty good, not terrible.

These are middle class type properties?

Without seeing them up close in person, as long as you know your money numbers, I'd throw a Kubota RTV1100 diesel with a daniels back drag plow on back and a blower on front or the pto broom. I'd have a shoveler ride with that Kubota driver and jump out and pull the snow back from the garages and other things before the driver gets to those obstacles. Obviously the walks or paths to the front door and front steps(if there are any) could theorhetically be shoveled by the shoveler or paddle blown only if there is enough time from whence the Kubota operator clears the driveway. If not so be it. So that is 2 people right there.

Next would be something like a Holder X45i with a 15mph top speed guaranteed even with implements or a sander drop or spreader in back flying through and doing all frontal public sidewalks in front of the houses. Using a blower or broom. If the paths or walks to the houses front doors are wide enough that little Holder can blow or broom right upto their steps or front door. Eliminating even more work for the shovelers. Upto 3 workers now.

So in essence the only crew left depending on how much work is left after the first 3 employees and the 2 machines and one shoveler could be done by possibly one shoveler. That person only has to do steps and paths/front walkways to houses front doors only where the Holder X45i can't do or the shoveler riding with the guy in the Kubota can't get to before he has to jump back in and leave with the driver to the next property.

So upto 4 people now to do you residentials quite easily and efficiently. Worse comes to worse, the last crew could have 2 shovelers and they would be able to blow through the front steps or paths and walkways to front doors super duper easily.

Win win for the entire crew. Either 4 or 5 man. If I am guessing the types of driveways and homes your doing, a 4 or 5 man crew using those machines and the way I outlined it and your route density especially, it seems theorhetically quite possible to do 100-150 houses in 8 to 12 hours even in heavy snowfalls with the 5 man setup. Also the Kubota and the smallest Holder and their implements will do less of a hit on your pocketbook and should last a long time.

Ideas brother. Keep brainstorming. After reading this thread and your queries in the 2 others you are asking questions in, the possibilities can narrow themselves down with the right equipment and processes quite well.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

jato said:


> We go out when the storm ends and get the driveways all done in about 5-6 hours. If the walks take 12+ hours to get done, the calls and e-mails start to roll in. Which I don't answer until the next day anyway... but I'm trying to keep people happy so we can grow. I also can't stay out working or at the garage for 15 hours. I'm not going to do it that way.
> 
> I need guys who can get it done in 8-10 hours, but I just don't know how to get them there.


Idk man it seems like youre getting some decent feedback but you're shooting it down, i think one of your biggest weaknesses is you're not moving with the storm. Youre waiting to long to dispatch and dealing with total accumulation thats been frozen over walked on ect.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Mudly said:


> Idk man it seems like youre getting some decent feedback but you're shooting it down, i think one of your biggest weaknesses is you're not moving with the storm. Youre waiting to long to dispatch and dealing with total accumulation thats been frozen over walked on ect.


Fair enough. Part of what I'm doing is just complaining that I haven't found good workers who can use shovels and snowblowers without wasting too much time. This is just venting and whining on my part. I know it's my job to keep hiring until I find them. Or drop the service. I've already raised the pay as high as it can reasonably go, so I am just going to post the job more often and try to network more.

As for working through the storm, I don't think this works with residential, unless you know you're going to get too much snow for one pass.

For example: If the shovelers go out at 3am to clear sidewalks while snow is still falling, they'll get done at about 10 am if it's just one vehicle doing the work. At 6-7am if it's 2 vehicles. Then they'd have to make ANOTHER trip to clear the final 1-2 inches. Basically this model requires 2 vehicles and 4 guys total. For shovel guys who only get paid when it snows, I can hardly get them to commit to an 8 hour shift. There's no way I'm going to get 12-16 hours out of them in a 24 hour period. And even if the second trip is faster than the first, that would almost double the labor cost of shoveling that storm. That's a dealbreaker.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Seems buying a $100k bi directional machine that's high maintenance with a blower will take care of all you're worries/ issue...... I saw it on the inter web.Thumbs Up


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> Seems buying a $100k bi directional machine that's high maintenance with a blower will take care of all you're worries/ issue...... I saw it on the inter web.Thumbs Up


Strangely enough, those machines listed aren't bi-directional. No more than any vehicle with forward and reverse travel is bi-directional.

Does NH even make true bi-directional tractors anymore?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Looks like they do.

https://agriculture.newholland.com/...ts/tractors-telehandlers/bidirectional/models


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Looks like they do.
> 
> https://agriculture.newholland.com/...ts/tractors-telehandlers/bidirectional/models


A little limited in the bi directional tractor scene... my only experience has been with a NH Versatile 160 and TV6070 and both are not sidewalk machines, for snow removal there great blower rigs for resis. Bug down fall was maintaining them.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

jato said:


> Fair enough. Part of what I'm doing is just complaining that I haven't found good workers who can use shovels and snowblowers without wasting too much time. This is just venting and whining on my part. I know it's my job to keep hiring until I find them. Or drop the service. I've already raised the pay as high as it can reasonably go, so I am just going to post the job more often and try to network more.
> 
> As for working through the storm, I don't think this works with residential, unless you know you're going to get too much snow for one pass.
> 
> For example: If the shovelers go out at 3am to clear sidewalks while snow is still falling, they'll get done at about 10 am if it's just one vehicle doing the work. At 6-7am if it's 2 vehicles. Then they'd have to make ANOTHER trip to clear the final 1-2 inches. Basically this model requires 2 vehicles and 4 guys total. For shovel guys who only get paid when it snows, I can hardly get them to commit to an 8 hour shift. There's no way I'm going to get 12-16 hours out of them in a 24 hour period. And even if the second trip is faster than the first, that would almost double the labor cost of shoveling that storm. That's a dealbreaker.


What???


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

In my best MJD voice, please stay on topic.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Just defining a true bi-directional machine. A Holders/Trackless/andalltheothersimilarmachines have been described as bi-directional in another sidewalk thread when they are not true bi-directional machines, any more than a utility tractor is a bi-directional machine.


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## Shady (11 mo ago)

Perhaps offering your shovelers a seasonal rate (based off what you are charging) instead of hourly would give them the incentive to get it done more timely.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Shady said:


> Perhaps offering your shovelers a seasonal rate (based off what you are charging) instead of hourly would give them the incentive to get it done more timely.


How would that work? Pay them monthly regardless of whether it snows or how much and hope they show up when it does?

Or do you mean paying a flat rate per driveway?


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

@jato

You mentioned you have 2 tractors doing the driveways at the moment, what are they and what implement do you use on them?

Are you yourself having the 2 shovelers ride with you and the 3 of you are working together?

Just trying to make some more sense of your situation.


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

Mark Oomkes said:


> A Holders/Trackless/andalltheothersimilarmachines have been described as bi-directional in another sidewalk thread when they are not true bi-directional machines, any more than a utility tractor is a bi-directional machine.


Please don't confuse the readers here I and others have stated. We have always noted that the bi-directional inverted snow blower is an implement, not a machine that carries the blower. From the videos posted one can see exactly what we are talking about.

I suppose we could have an enitire pinned thread dealing with winter front and rear implements. Definitely since the vast majority of what we are talking about is in one singular thread called "Switching to blowing service".

Probably the search function on plowsite is not getting enough searchers to the topical threads that they are looking for. @VSadmin what do you think?


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## Shady (11 mo ago)

cwren2472 said:


> How would that work? Pay them monthly regardless of whether it snows or how much and hope they show up when it does?
> 
> Or do you mean paying a flat rate per driveway?


I have no idea as I would never offer shoveling as a service, seems like a major pita especially in the residential market. But then again I don't live in a urban area. But I would imagine if you want it done more quickly you would need some type of incentive. And those seasonal rates that were quoted I'm not even sure how you can make any money.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

A flat rate per site would seem to be the best way to get faster service - just so long as someone is there to supervise when the guys give what they feel is $15/driveway worth of service. Which likely won't equal what the boss is expecting for his $15. Such is life.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> A flat rate per site would seem to be the best way to get faster service - just so long as someone is there to supervise when the guys give what they feel is $15/driveway worth of service. Which likely won't equal what the boss is expecting for his $15. Such is life.


Post #18
https://www.plowsite.com/threads/how-to-get-shoveling-done-and-make-a-profit.182933/#post-2591337


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

BUFF said:


> Post #18
> https://www.plowsite.com/threads/how-to-get-shoveling-done-and-make-a-profit.182933/#post-2591337


Thank you. I didn't actually read anything in this thread. That's how I roll.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> Thank you. I didn't actually read anything in this thread. That's how I roll.


I blame the pancake hat....

and your parents too....


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

BUFF said:


> I blame the pancake hat....
> and your parents too....


Hey, this thread is _4 pages long. _ @WIPensFan has a 4 sentence limit or something. At least I think it was 4 sentences. I'd have to go back and look. But I won't.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

Nothing wrong with getting paid for fair weather. Gotta keep me around when it goes to hell


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

cwren2472 said:


> Hey, this thread is _4 pages long. _ @WIPensFan has a 4 sentence limit or something. At least I think it was 4 sentences. I'd have to go back and look. But I won't.


I think I'm gonna change it to "NO WORDS"


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

WIPensFan said:


> I think I'm gonna change it to "NO WORDS"


Good job. Now you just made it 5 pages.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Ice-sage said:


> Alright. Just r slightly less. So not an 8-mi radius… that would be a very big area I think. What we have is more rectangular, and is about 2 miles wide by 4 miles across.


All 78 stops are within 8 *square miles*, so about a 1.7 mile radius. That's year 1 with no EDDM, no Facebook ads, no fliers. Just getting calls and forms from our website, and picking some off the map on Angeeslist.

The property values are high enough. People can afford the service. Population is mostly affluent, retired professionals.

An RTV would be cool, and at 25mph it could cut time now. But on dense routes I don't see how and RTV with a 66" blower could beat a tractor with a 74-80".

I don't think shoveling is high enough margin to offer in the long run. But I am not sure how many will drop the service if we don't offer both.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Offer that sidewalks will be cleared 
Within 24hrs of the end of the storm.

this might buy time and manpower 
But this works best with a seasonal contract. 
Jmo.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Hydromaster said:


> Offer that sidewalks will be cleared
> Within 24hrs of the end of the storm.
> 
> this might buy time and manpower
> ...


When we have storms that finish at crappy times, this is what we do to prioritize on city walks, unless they're used to get in and out of the business.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

cwren2472 said:


> A flat rate per site would seem to be the best way to get faster service - just so long as someone is there to supervise when the guys give what they feel is $15/driveway worth of service. Which likely won't equal what the boss is expecting for his $15. Such is life.


This is true. We pay a flat rate for each stop now. Stops with sidewalks take a few mins longer and pay more than stops that only have a front door path. It seems like it would work, if I were better at finding people to do it. It breaks down to about $40-60 per hour if someone working solo goes slow and steady. You can easily clear 6 per hour, sometimes 12 per hour, and the average pay for each is $8.20. ($6-7 for easy ones, $10-12 for the ones that need more work. It's about $1-1.5 per minute on site, but this number goes down if the person is slow getting into- and out of the truck, or is slow putting the snowblower back on the cargo rack. Absolute base for someone working slow AF comes out to about $25-30/hr.

So it can get done, and can pay well, if we have people to do it. But even in the best case scenario it's a low margin service. We charged $95 for the season for the easy ones. So if you figure $6-7 in labor to clear each storm, at about 9 storms you're starting to cut deeply into possible profits. And by the time you hit 14 storms all that revenue is totally gone. We only get 9-12 events per year that hit our trigger, on average. So yeah. That's how it works out. If we priced the easy ones at $125 and the harder ones at $150 we'd be safer. The issue would still be finding dependable people willing to show up for only 8-12 days of work per season, since we can't pay them ongoing "retention pay" when no snow happens.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Not saying I would or anyone should...but if you think this is the only way to keep customers, you could just include the walk service and pay everything to the shoveler. Keep the profits from the driveways. 

Just something to consider. 

I hate adding the sidewalks to the driveway clearing but same as you, it was requested and we "had" to. I just can't charge enough to really make what I should.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

New idea: How about a 180cc or 250cc ATV with a light duty plow on the front? And a shovel clipped on the side or across the back. And an extra fuel can.
As long as the tread width is less than about 42" that would fit on sidewalks. Then push across garage door and hop off to shovel the front door path for one min. Need the right gear to be cozy, but that could actually be a fun job. 
I'll throw a beacon light on it. 
It sounds perfect... so I'm sure I'm missing something here. Yes?


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

jato said:


> New idea: How about a 180cc or 250cc ATV with a light duty plow on the front? And a shovel clipped on the side or across the back. And an extra fuel can.
> As long as the tread width is less than about 42" that would fit on sidewalks. Then push across garage door and hop off to shovel the front door path for one min. Need the right gear to be cozy, but that could actually be a fun job.
> I'll throw a beacon light on it.
> It sounds perfect... so I'm sure I'm missing something here. Yes?


Can't road them in most places. So now you need a vehicle and trailer too.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

jonniesmooth said:


> Can't road them in most places. So now you need a vehicle and trailer too.


Going by Michigan law, it's not "legal" to drive an open station tractor on public roads, or a homeowner Deere mower, or a zero turn. But those things happen all the time.

City parks dept guys drive snowrators down sidewalks for blocks at a time around here. That's definitely not legal.

Why not put guys out there on quads, if the insirance will cover them as snow equipment? The insurance is the most important thing.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

jato said:


> Going by Michigan law, it's not "legal" to drive an open station tractor on public roads, or a homeowner Deere mower, or a zero turn. But those things happen all the time.


What's the difference if it has a cab or not?
Site the code for this claim.


jato said:


> City parks dept guys drive snowrators down sidewalks for blocks at a time around here. That's definitely not legal.


You realize they OWN the sidewalks,right?


jato said:


> Why not put guys out there on quads, if the insirance will cover them as snow equipment? The insurance is the most important thing.


No,being able to do it legally, without harassment by the cops is more important.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

jonniesmooth said:


> What's the difference if it has a cab or not?
> Site the code for this claim.
> 
> You realize they OWN the sidewalks,right?
> ...


Probably right. I'll find an army of high school kids this summer who will take this problem off my plate next winter.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

jonniesmooth said:


> What's the difference if it has a cab or not?
> Site the code for this claim.
> 
> You realize they OWN the sidewalks,right?
> ...


The cab is necessary because 4 wheel vehicles must have a windshield and wipers and wiper spray system to be road legal in MI.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

jato said:


> The cab is necessary because 4 wheel vehicles must have a windshield and wipers and wiper spray system to be road legal in MI.


I think you are making this issues out to be way larger than it is.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

I would put more effort into finding clents that dont need shoveling. We dont accept any new clients that request it. Too much of a hassle. Even with a two man shovel crew its a pain. And with lake effect sometimes only certain routes are triggered. I have to make sure the shovelers dont start on a route that wont be cleared by tractor. Or they are all done and go home then that route gets triggered an hour later.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Those using tractors but not shoveling, what do you do about that area right outside the garage door? Just leave it snowy? We have a lot of side-entry garages in my area. Those end up with 1-2 small triangles of snow outside the garage door, more than the average door does.

It makes me happy to imagine a future with no shoveling. In the end the best thing is to have a stress level and workload that I can handle, and cutting the shovel work will accomplish that overnight. I just don’t want to lose too many accounts. This is fear talking.

Those of you who don’t offer shoveling, or who drive up shovel rates to discourage it, do you keep the driveway rates the same? Or do you drop the driveway rate to a sweet spot, to get more truck/tractor accounts? Or offer salting for free? Or drop the trigger depth….? Or none of the above? Maybe I should retitle this thread “how to not get shoveling done”.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

The district attorney that invented right angle/side entry garages should be shot...at least twice.


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## Landgreen (Sep 8, 2007)

jato said:


> Those using tractors but not shoveling, what do you do about that area right outside the garage door? Just leave it snowy? We have a lot of side-entry garages in my area. Those end up with 1-2 small triangles of snow outside the garage door, more than the average door does.
> 
> It makes me happy to imagine a future with no shoveling. In the end the best thing is to have a stress level and workload that I can handle, and cutting the shovel work will accomplish that overnight. I just don't want to lose too many accounts. This is fear talking.
> 
> Those of you who don't offer shoveling, or who drive up shovel rates to discourage it, do you keep the driveway rates the same? Or do you drop the driveway rate to a sweet spot, to get more truck/tractor accounts? Or offer salting for free? Or drop the trigger depth….? Or none of the above? Maybe I should retitle this thread "how to not get shoveling done".


Reading your posts gives me the feeling the clients in your market have more of an expectation of shoveling to be included with clearing the driveway than what I have here. You may be stuck with offering that service if you can't acquire enough no shovel customers to make it worthwhile. In my area the center of town is the typical concentrated city block type properties with alleys and city sidewalks. This area is 80% shovel mandatory clients. No bueno. If my entire route areas were made up of this type of property layout I would probably bail on tractor blower service. We would have to downsize our tractors and hire extra shovelers. The subdivisions outside of the city limits are our bread and butter. We clear the drive and the client shovels the walk and in front of garage door. We only have 4 drives that we regularly salt as well.

If I recall Nix snowblowing in Stratford Ontario dumped all his shoveling a year or two ago. I don't think there was much of an issue keeping clients.


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Shoveling walks and in front of garage doors is almost non existent in this area .


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

We do it only for those who pay for sidewalk service.


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## Shady (11 mo ago)

I only get out of my truck for thing while I’m plowing and it’s not shoveling.


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## Shady (11 mo ago)

Shady said:


> I only get out of my truck for thing while I'm plowing and it's not shoveling.


There is also not a high demand for it in our area either although some companies do offer it.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Send your guys out to clear the snow from the driveways and you come behind them and shovel the sidewalks.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Hydromaster said:


> Send your guys out to clear the snow from the driveways and you come behind them and shovel the sidewalks.


Simple, effective. 
Not fun tho.
: )


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

jato said:


> Simple, effective.
> Not fun tho.
> : )


To incentivize yourself, pay yourself an extra $5 per drive if you get then done on time .


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## Ice-sage (Nov 9, 2017)

@jato 

Good day sir.

Any follow up from this thread this season? Any news to share with what you are going to try or figured out for the 2022/23 snow season?

Thanks in advance for any replies.


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

Ice-sage said:


> @jato
> 
> Any follow up from this thread this season? Any news to share with what you are going to try or figured out for the 2022/23 snow season?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any replies.


Hi! Thanks for asking. Yes, I've been charging separately for all shoveling. We lost about 15-25% of clients after announcing this, but got new ones in October to replace them.

We keep a card on file and run it for a set rate after each shovel visit. Shovel rate at each house depends how long the work takes, ranging from about $8-25. $25 would be a corner house with sidewalks. Shovelers drive their own vehicles, and are paid for getting stops done, about $4-12 per stop, not hourly. We don't pay their gas or insurance. The company makes a guaranteed 40-60% margin on shoveling with this method. The more HOA shared sidewalks we pick up as separate accounts, the higher that gets.

We worked one storm this year so far, and all shoveling was done in less than 3 hours. Workers made $40-50+ per hour. One made about $70/hr. They seem fairly happy with the situation so far. Time will tell. Hiring the right people for this took a lot of time.


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## SilverPine (Dec 7, 2018)

What's the plan when a shovelers car breaks down.. or gets stuck?


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## jato (Dec 3, 2020)

SilverPine said:


> What's the plan when a shovelers car breaks down.. or gets stuck?


I currently limit routes to between 15-25 stops. So 2-4 hours of work on average. If a vehicle breaks down, I would take 1-2 mins on my phone to slide that route over to another's schedule, or break it up for 2-3 others to cover evenly. I use quick dispatch on lawnpro. Any similar CRM would do the same thing. If every shoveler has to do 2 routes instead of one, the work will still get done in less than 6-7 hours max.

None of these shovelers are driving crappy cars or anything with 2wd. But if someone needs a jump there are 2-3 others (in addition to me) who can pause their route and go help.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

SilverPine said:


> What's the plan when a shovelers car breaks down.. or gets stuck?


I'm the only one who ever works alone without back up.
If I have a tractor out,there's always another truck out for support, 95% of the time it's me.
I might be done with my route, so I'm working in the shop or taking a nap, but I'm phone call away if needed. Sometimes I pick up what's left of their route from the other end.
But if I take the other tractor and go the opposite direction we lose that support aspect of having a truck that can get there quickly, and if I pitch in they make less money, so it varies day to day.


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