# NSP's Exposed? I.E. EMCOR, USM, Caliber, ETC



## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

My Fellow Snow Comrades:

I am Looking to get straight to the point on "NSP's," "Nationals," "bs property management companies"

They're greedy, they're white collar criminals to some, but what is the deal with their stance in the market? There are big players who still choose to go with them.

Is there any we should trust? Has anyone had good experiences with a particular NSP vs others?

The point of this post is to help others and the snow industry as a whole, to summarize:


Are there an NSP that a quality maint company should reach out to if they need to fill some gaps in their routes? Maybe for efficiency purposes or just keeping the core employees busy? 
Which NSP's should you avoid flat out - if so, why? 

I genuinely want to know what others think, I've dealt with a few and still deal with a couple... However, I'm hoping the result of this thread will increase awareness, help raise the price standard, and much more.

This is not intended to start arguments, just to help the industry as a whole and stick together with this environment we're in socially, politically, and economically.

Would love to hear some constructive viewpoints regarding from some vets, new comers, and in between.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

I have had the best luck with one called Flowsense, not sure if they’re still around, but every invoice I brought to the property we serviced and they swiped with a CC.
Second best would be Dawson.

millennia housing out of Cleveland was the worst, 6-8 months on getting paid, always spoke with a different person very difficult to get paid, if you mention lawsuit, they hang up, but they always promise they’ve changed and they’ll never let that happen again.
Dealt with that one season, when they asked for a snow bid again, I told them they haven’t paid their last one, but I eventually did get paid after repeated phone calls

we took on a property for Command7 this season that was across the street from another property we service, in a city where we service 6 other commercial accounts all within about a mile of each other. Command7 like many NSP’s have a boilerplate contract, but they will negotiate.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

BossPlow2010 said:


> I have had the best luck with one called Flowsense, not sure if they're still around, but every invoice I brought to the property we serviced and they swiped with a CC.
> Second best would be Dawson.
> 
> millennia housing out of Cleveland was the worst, 6-8 months on getting paid, always spoke with a different person very difficult to get paid, if you mention lawsuit, they hang up, but they always promise they've changed and they'll never let that happen again.
> ...


I thought they were Command8 now?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Honestly, the only NSP or regional SP I ever had issues with was someone out of Detoilet area and it wasn't for much money, it was the principle. 

Having said that, I did receive a letter from one that I worked for regarding a non-solicitation clause. Except the customer contacted me and we had worked for the customer long before this NSP took the work for a couple years. 

Anyways, the regional one was subbed to the NSP, so I was third in line. My prices were exactly the same that I had charged the customer directly. So there is no way these idiots save anyone money. And I did get my money. After a couple months of their lying BS, I went to the company they subbed to and told them the story. Not sure if it's kosher now that the "other" forum is owned by the same company, but I posted it there. Might have posted it here.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate cuz, well, you all already know that's how I roll.

It seems that most think the NSPs do nothing but leech money from hardworking snowplowers. Except they are performing a service - specifically, they are doing the paper pushing and negotiating with a company that would otherwise have to negotiate contracts at 500 locations individually via 500 store managers who would each have to meet with 2 dozen contractors all vying for the coveted "big dollar, big box" account.

If anyone has the resources to negotiate and arrange for snow removal at dozens or hundreds of locations, feel free to offer that to said major company and cut out the NSP entirely.

Of course, if you have those resources, that means that you are likely sitting in your shop, rarely leaving the desk/phone where you spend all your time managing employees, speaking with clients.... and pushing paper.

If a shoveler is getting paid $15/hr to shovel while the plowing contractor charges $25/hr for that same guy, why shouldn't the shoveler offer his services to Wal-mart personally for $20/hr and cut out the middle man? What? What do mean that would never work?

An NSP that offers low pay for a contract is no different than a plowing contractor that offers minimum wage to snow shovelers. If those shovelers refuse the offer, that contractor will have to up their ante. If a bunch of shovelers accept that minimum wage offer, well...


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

I have had positive NSP experiences within the following conditions:
1. Never do any service without having it approved in writing in the same format as the contract.
2. Read carefully the parameters, conditions, etc to get paid.
3. Ask before signing up with people.

That being said, I agree with @cwren2472 [first time for everything]. NSP's are GC's. There are good and bad ones. They do perform a service. For me I've gotten some good and some crap pricing, same for contracts. They all negotiate, conditions and pricing.

Good people to deal with-direct experience:
Case
Ferrandino
Emcor.

Bad? Yeah it happens. Ask direct if you want the bad list.

I haven't had luck signing up with USM, Brightview as they won't bring up pricing in my area so I don't work for them.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

cwren2472 said:


> I'm going to play Devil's Advocate cuz, well, you all already know that's how I roll.
> 
> It seems that most think the NSPs do nothing but leech money from hardworking snowplowers. Except they are performing a service - specifically, they are doing the paper pushing and negotiating with a company that would otherwise have to negotiate contracts at 500 locations individually via 500 store managers who would each have to meet with 2 dozen contractors all vying for the coveted "big dollar, big box" account.
> 
> ...


However, being a counter jockey you're well aware that price typically affects quality, do your installers run harbor freight tools to install snow dog plows, or are they using snap on/ Milwaukee/ matco/ Mac to install boss plows.

I'm sure Buyers would love to have you as a dealer…


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

BossPlow2010 said:


> However, being a counter jockey


Geez, I was starting to think that_ No one_ was going to point that out



BossPlow2010 said:


> you're well aware that price typically affects quality, do your installers run harbor freight tools to install snow dog plows, or are they using snap on/ Milwaukee/ matco/ Mac to install boss plows.


Absolutely. And ultimately it is up to the customer/client to decide how low of quality they are willing to put up with vs how much they want to pay.

Who do you think it selling more $ in tools? Harbor Freight or Snap On?

If the service is too crappy for the price they are paying, the client will move to another servicer.



BossPlow2010 said:


> I'm sure Buyers would love to have you as a dealer…


What makes you think I'm not already?


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Harbor freight only sells crap so Snap on…


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Harbor freight only sells crap so Snap on…


Maybe so - thats why no customer has ever bought from them twice, right?


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## Mountain Bob (Nov 12, 2017)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Harbor freight only sells crap so Snap on…


HF's newer line of higher quality hand tools is reviewed quite well,even by professional mechanics. Along with some of their power tools. But they ain't cheap.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

From what Ive surmised in my limited exposure, they rob Peter to pay Paul.
The first one I worked for took a job I already had and had me bid on it. Of course I upped my price, figured pretty quickly that they had never inspected the site, that satelite imagery they looked at was not for the parking lot they were having me quote for their customer and the payment terms were not acceptable to me as the season would be half over before I saw a dime. 
Every penny will be negotiated, every penny in their pocket from one contractor pays the inflated contract of another ( if they're reputable) 
They rarely last more than a couple of seasons, and when they go you will have a hard time getting in with the new NSP who got the work.....cause we all know how they got it..
Theoretically....your non compete with the first one would prevent you if you were a stickler, but we all know none of us would turn down the work to keep a site at our price point.


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## Blizzard1974 (Oct 8, 2021)

cwren2472 said:


> I'm going to play Devil's Advocate cuz, well, you all already know that's how I roll.
> 
> It seems that most think the NSPs do nothing but leech money from hardworking snowplowers. Except they are performing a service - specifically, they are doing the paper pushing and negotiating with a company that would otherwise have to negotiate contracts at 500 locations individually via 500 store managers who would each have to meet with 2 dozen contractors all vying for the coveted "big dollar, big box" account.
> 
> ...


Few things come to mind, also playing devils advocate a little bit.

These guys to have to run a business so it makes sense that they take a cut. However 40-60% seems a little ridiculous. I think the main issue though is that even before these nationals take their cut, the price is already too cheap.

Example: For round numbers, lets say you are asked to bid a store and they want you to be around 10K. This store at a minimum is a 25K store for anyone reputable to plow. The problem is, there is such a race to the bottom when nationals are bidding sites against each other, that they win these sites for lower than they are worth. So they won that site that should realistically be contracted for 25K. However, they bid 20K, that's why they won it. So even if they put 0% margin on it and lost money, you still would be doing a 25K site for 20K.

I see the main issue with nationals is each other. It is a "race to the bottom" for them when initially bidding these sites just so they win the sites. They just underbid the other nationals and win these contracts for lower than they should even be contracted on by the self performers.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Blizzard1974 said:


> Few things come to mind, also playing devils advocate a little bit.
> 
> These guys to have to run a business so it makes sense that they take a cut. However 40-60% seems a little ridiculous. I think the main issue though is that even before these nationals take their cut, the price is already too cheap.
> 
> ...


Exactly my point. What's to stop anyone else from bidding $19k?

If the NSP offers you peanuts for the job, you should refuse it. In fact, you have an obligation to your fellow plowers to do so. And your anger should be toward the schmuck that accepts it. Because the NSP wouldn't be able to bid $20k if they didn't know that someone would accept their offer for lower money.

If you counter with what you would normally get and the NSP accepts that, what business is it of yours as to how much the NSP marked up that service to the end consumer?


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## Blizzard1974 (Oct 8, 2021)

cwren2472 said:


> Exactly my point. What's to stop anyone else from bidding $19k?


Here is another problem though. There will always be a residential guy or newbie or just a dumb one who will underbid or take these ****ty pricings. He won't show up when it gets bad, there will be failures, but the NSP and their sales guys don't care because they checked that site off their list and "got it subbed".

Then when they fail, they pay for emergency services and/or hire a new sub for double. They end up losing money in the long run like idiots because they wouldn't just get a good sub with fair pricing in the first place.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Blizzard1974 said:


> Here is another problem though. There will always be a residential guy or newbie or just a dumb one who will underbid or take these ****ty pricings.


I know - just look at 80% of the posts in the "Bidding" forum



Blizzard1974 said:


> He won't show up when it gets bad, there will be failures, but the NSP and their sales guys don't care because they checked that site off their list and "got it subbed".


Not true - because the NSP will have to answer to the end client. While I've never worked with or for an NSP or ever plowed ever I'm going to guess that the end consumer would NOT accept "Well, it's the subs fault" as an excuse.



Blizzard1974 said:


> Then when they fail, they pay for emergency services and/or hire a new sub for double. They end up losing money in the long run like idiots because they wouldn't just get a good sub with fair pricing in the first place.


Which I assume is why you hear about so many NSPs folding up, stiffing subs, and reopening under a new name.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Most contracts with NSPs have the "dumb residential" guy on the hook for service failures. If they have to call in emergency service or hire another contractor the original sub is out of pocket not the NSP. 
For the most part NSPs bid everything to do with a customers snow operations, every site. Whether they overpay the worth by $5k on one there is another where they are hoping to underpay by that difference.
At the end of it they gamble the margins that they can find enough slow snowplow contractors to take their first offerings and be ahead when its all over....


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> Most contracts with NSPs have the "dumb residential" guy on the hook for service failures. If they have to call in emergency service or hire another contractor the original sub is out of pocket not the NSP.


Must suck to be that guy.

Serious question - if "Big Greedy NSP inc." offers $XX and "Dumb Residential Snowplowing LLC" accepts it but can't actually do the job of $XX, who should be considered to be the guilty party here?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

The guy who took responsibility for the work... Lol.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Yes


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

One more question - do these NSP contracts typically include money up front for seasonal accounts...?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Plow jockey is an idiot. 

NSP is greedy scum because deep down they know the plow jockey is going to fail. And based on their contracts, they don't care that it will harm the plow jockey. Which also means they don't care about their customer's best interests.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Plow jockey is an idiot.
> 
> NSP is greedy scum because deep down they know the plow jockey is going to fail. And based on their contracts, they don't care that it will harm the plow jockey. Which also means they don't care about their customer's best interests.


The customer went with the lower bidding NSP not because they thought their service would improve but because it makes the guy that made the decision look good to shareholders and his upper management by saving money. If he negotiated in good faith and the NSP didn't hold up their end of the bargain, well...

And while the NSP might indeed be a greedy scum, lets look at it this way. If I offer you $10 to cut my lawn, you would say no. Because it's way too much work for $10 and you are well aware of that. If someone else says yes, then regrets that decision because it's too much work for $10, despite knowing full well exactly how much work it was, does that make me a greedy jerk?

Unless the argument is that the guy I offered $10 to (who "runs his own company") was just too ignorant to price the job properly. And *I *should have known that before offering him the $10.

Now, let's throw this out there. I offer $10 to cut my lawn, $5 of which is paid in _advance_. Then that guy never shows up so I have to pay $20 to someone else. I'm still the greedy jerk for offering the first guy $10, right?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Everyone seems to be all on board for personal responsibility but these "business owners" who agree to contracts and accounts that are way over there head and abilities, they should assume no responsibility because Big NSP is bigger and should therefore know better?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

If you really want to play devils advocate, lets dispense with the designation NSP and use the word Contractor and the sub can keep his designation. I know there are guys on here who sub out some of their work cause it is out of their area.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mr.Markus said:


> If you really want to play devils advocate, lets dispense with the designation NSP and use the word Contractor and the sub can keep his designation. I know there are guys on here who sub out some of their work cause it is out of their area.


Wait... so you are saying that a bunch of the members on here are NSPs...?


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

cwren2472 said:


> Wait... so you are saying that a bunch of the members on here are NSPs...?


I can name some but I won't cause it violates my contract(s)...


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

To be clear, none of what I said is in defense of NSPs that simply duck and dodge paying their subs before closing up shop.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

cwren2472 said:


> One more question - do these NSP contracts typically include money up front for seasonal accounts...?


Not from what I've seen...they like you to float their operation on your dime


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

Mr.Markus said:


> I can name some but I won't cause it violates my contract(s)...


Trader!


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

Whoa. I'm just a "Junior Member" and had no idea it would get this serious! 

I was able to read through all the posts throughout the thread. I found redundancy in arguments whether NSP's are good or bad. 

In the end - I think its safe to say NSP's are NOT that good.... 

However, we are comparing NSP's business to our business as contractors. Its causing division between our realm vs "NSP's or Suits" Two totally different aspects of the real estate management industry. 

No matter what, we should not be dividing debating on whether its good or bad, because its simple, this is capitalism and we have to coexist. Which is partially why I created the post in the first place. I wanted to know what the good ones are, if contacted or need to contact to keep guys busy. That being said, the **** NSP's will die off because we don't care to deal with them. 

Guarantee if National personnel or "paper pusher," read the couple posts about which are better / worse, they'll note it. 

My experience with NSP - 

Emcor who purchased USM or combined or whatever, has really been okay to deal with... even though I lost my ass on my first year of plowing one of their retail locations because I was a "newbie" and thought it was a "good account" to have. HOWEVER, I learned and stuck with their guts and made the best possible relationships with the staff. They then began to negotiate pricing, renewal contract agreements etc. 
I still have that first store. I stuck with it learned their BS protocols and the following year I was able to double the price I did it for the first year. This is now our highest profit margin account we have Private / NSP combined! 

I was just a residential plower too, but I learned on gas stations. taught me a lot and don't regret it. 

Now, can ANYONE here relate? Not looking for an argument, i'm just looking for camaraderie. 

I bet there is a lot of people that have a bad taste in their mouth regarding the Emcor / USM words, but they changed. After merging they actually changed from an 8 service platform to a 3 service. so now it is only Snow & Salt, Salt, and Snow only. 

THis is pretty huge and is something we should be taking advantage of. The clerical side of things is extremely different. I know i'm talking about per service, which is different than seasonal. But still my point is that they still offer opportunities to make money. I know someone else mentioned that if a contractor is not able to complete a removal serivice then that emergency service is charged to the contractor and not the NSP / Client. 

But... Lets be real for a second. isn't that also keeping us in check? If they charge the previous contractor and we charge an emergency rate that's still an emergency. 
I'm trying to point that this is also going to correct said contractor who has to pay the emergency fee. It is a learning experience, maybe he'll learn to not take on as many accounts or charge properly the following year. And i'm not talking about emergency services that cost 20-30k. 

If it gets that high then that contractor would be well known and would be proper to reach out to that contractor directly first. 


blah blah food for thought i guess.


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

@Twan i can relate. i cut my teeth with a regionalal SP up this way, who was fair, not very informative. I don't do a lot of businesss with them, but its steady money, they've stood by me when a payment for service dispute comes up [rare].

My first year of commercial I left thousands on the table, raised my risk by my ignorance. I learned. I made it pay playing their game. Per push accounts with NSP's do pay.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

@Twan , I apologize for hijacking your thread. I don't even plow.  I'm just here for the popcorn.


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

cwren2472 said:


> @Twan , I apologize for hijacking your thread. I don't even plow.  I'm just here for the popcorn.


So you an undercover NST?! I don't blame ya, sometimes I entertain that idea as well!

Now, net the pitchforks people!

JK we're good. lol I like all of it



Kvston said:


> @Twan i can relate. i cut my teeth with a regionalal SP up this way, who was fair, not very informative. I don't do a lot of businesss with them, but its steady money, they've stood by me when a payment for service dispute comes up [rare].
> 
> My first year of commercial I left thousands on the table, raised my risk by my ignorance. I learned. I made it pay playing their game. Per push accounts with NSP's do pay.


yep! regional per push is the only time I'll consider working with NSP!


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Twan said:


> So you an undercover NST?! I don't blame ya, sometimes I entertain that idea as well!


I think the usual term that _someone_ might use is "troublemaker"


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

cwren2472 said:


> I think the usual term that _someone_ might use is "troublemaker"


ooooh I see... the_ code word_ is "_troublemaker_" lol


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Everyone seems to be all on board for personal responsibility but these "business owners" who agree to contracts and accounts that are way over there head and abilities, they should assume no responsibility because Big NSP is bigger and should therefore know better?





Mark Oomkes said:


> Plow jockey is an idiot.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

In all seriousness, from having read the many, many complaints about various NSPs on here, it seems like most all the gripes can be categorized as:

a) The NSP requires "too much" documentation/proof of work done at a site (from a company looking to pay thousands of dollars to someone to work at a site that it can't physically see itself)

b) The NSP offered too little money for the amount of work agreed upon (even though the contractor was made aware of the scope of the work)

c) The NSP "took advantage" of the "newbie" by offering a contract that he didn't have the ability to fulfill at the price agreed up

d) The terms in the *contract agreed upon *are unpleasant (such as waiting for payment until the customer pays)

e) The NSP doesn't pay as agreed even though work was completed as agreed

f) The NSP goes belly up - edit: and reopens under a new name.

E & F are valid complaints/issues and they should be exposed. You shouldn't do business with those companies (assuming the issues are truly as stated....)

The rest all amount to "Snow plow owner didn't know what he was getting into" - we aren't talking about stealing candy from a baby. The NSP is contracting with "business owners." If those owners don't have the experience or knowledge to know what they are agreeing to, why should the NSP be blamed for that? If you want to "run your own business" and "be your own boss" then you need to know what's involved with that. If you don't, then you need to accept that you are going to make (potentially very) costly mistakes. Welcome to the real world.

Edit: my apologies for exceeding the legal number of "quotes" in one post


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Plow jockey is an idiot.
> 
> NSP is greedy scum because deep down they know the plow jockey is going to fail. And based on their contracts, they don't care that it will harm the plow jockey. Which also means they don't care about their customer's best interests.


 See my rant above.


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)

cwren2472 said:


> In all seriousness, from having read the many, many complaints about various NSPs on here, it seems like most all the gripes can be categorized as:
> 
> a) The NSP requires "too much" documentation/proof of work done at a site (from a company looking to pay thousands of dollars to someone to work at a site that it can't physically see itself)
> 
> ...


One of the best "rants" I have read. Great summary.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> The customer went with the lower bidding NSP not because they thought their service would improve but because it makes the guy that made the decision look good to shareholders and his upper management by saving money. If he negotiated in good faith and the NSP didn't hold up their end of the bargain, well...


Again, what I said is greed. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. At some point, someone has to know that the price can't get any lower and if someone takes advantage of an unsuspecting plow jockey...greed.



cwren2472 said:


> And while the NSP might indeed be a greedy scum, lets look at it this way. If I offer you $10 to cut my lawn, you would say no. Because it's way too much work for $10 and you are well aware of that. If someone else says yes, then regrets that decision because it's too much work for $10, despite knowing full well exactly how much work it was, does that make me a greedy jerk?


Depends...why did you accept the offer? Do you know $10 is far too low and you don't care about the contractor?



cwren2472 said:


> Unless the argument is that the guy I offered $10 to (who "runs his own company") was just too ignorant to price the job properly. And *I *should have known that before offering him the $10.


If you get multiple prices for $25 and someone offers you $10...what do you think?



cwren2472 said:


> Now, let's throw this out there. I offer $10 to cut my lawn, $5 of which is paid in _advance_. Then that guy never shows up so I have to pay $20 to someone else. I'm still the greedy jerk for offering the first guy $10, right?


Did you check references? How long the contractor has been in business?

Pretty sure I've told this before. After '13-'14 when we had close to 120" and plowed some accounts over 50 times, we instituted a cap on the number of services. Had a few customers question this. I explained:

It isn't fair to charge on a regular basis for the outlying years when we have significant above normal snowfall. It also isn't fair for them to expect me to "plow for free" on those same years. I explained that I am not trying to get rich by charging extra and I'm not going to start plowing at 3/4" instead of 1.5" to hit that number of services so I can start charging more. But I do need to cover my costs on those outlier years so I can continue to provide the service they need. They all understood.

Sure, Joe Homeowner might not understand that, which is fine. I don't want someone who is ignorant as a customer. (Still working on how to figure that one out ahead of time.) But you get the point.

If you know your lawn is a $25 cut but accept the offer for $10, yes you are greedy whether the lawn jockey knows it or not.


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## Twan (Oct 29, 2020)




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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Again, what I said is greed. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. At some point, someone has to know that the price can't get any lower and if someone takes advantage of an unsuspecting plow jockey...greed.


I guess... you can make the argument that capitalism is greed then. Perhaps @snowngo and @RichardBongIII will take your side.



Mark Oomkes said:


> Depends...why did you accept the offer? Do you know $10 is far too low and you don't care about the contractor?


I care about getting my lawn mowed.



Mark Oomkes said:


> If you get multiple prices for $25 and someone offers you $10...what do you think?


Then I think I'd be crazy to accept the $10 for the job. And yet....



Mark Oomkes said:


> Did you check references? How long the contractor has been in business?
> 
> Pretty sure I've told this before. After '13-'14 when we had close to 120" and plowed some accounts over 50 times, we instituted a cap on the number of services. Had a few customers question this. I explained:
> 
> ...


So, you as the "Lawn Care Maintenance Professional" should be expected to know less about the cost to cut my lawn than me as the homeowner? You own the company. Should I know your expenses and necessary profit better than you?

So who is to blame? The NSP for offering the low amount? The client for accepting the low bid from the NSP? Both?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> and if *someone takes advantage of an unsuspecting plow jockey*...greed.


This right here is my sticking point. "Unsuspecting." Making an offer and letting someone accept it is not "scamming."

The plow jockey is "unsuspecting" only if he has no business owning his own business because he has no idea how to run it. And how is that the rest of America's fault?

I'm sure @RichardBongIII would agree with you that someone else should hold the unsuspecting jockey's hand and manage his finances, business, responsibilties,....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> So, you as the "Lawn Care Maintenance Professional" should be expected to know less about the cost to cut my lawn than me as the homeowner? You own the company. Should I know your expenses and necessary profit better than you?


Guess I'm an idealist. I'm looking for long term relationships with customers and hope they desire the same. And I would hope we would both know that a $10 cut isn't good for either of us. Maybe this makes me a slimebag business owner/employer.

To each their own I guess.



cwren2472 said:


> So who is to blame? The NSP for offering the low amount? The client for accepting the low bid from the NSP? Both?


The NSP business model is similar to private equity type firms that buy a company, suck every bit of profit out of it, then sell the remaining assets.

They offer low prices in the hope and knowledge that there will be a certain number of plow jockeys that will accept the low prices offered.

Let's face it, this and the green industry is not made up of a lot MBA's and these companies know it. And develop business models based on that knowledge.

The plow jockey is to blame for not knowing his costs and getting in over his head. But on the flip side, everyone has to start somewhere. The OP seems to have realized early on he made a huge mistake and was able to correct it. How many contractors don't?

Answer me this...why don't many NSP's last long? Why do they close shop and start with a new name? If they were truly trying to develop a sustainable business model that had the best interests of all 3 parties involved, would this be happening on a somewhat regular basis?

I know, me being an idealist again.



cwren2472 said:


> The plow jockey is "unsuspecting" only if he has no business owning his own business because he has no idea how to run it. And how is that the rest of America's fault?


No idea, I never said it was.

What about the tuition at the school of hard knocks?

I said in another thread nothing ventured, nothing gained. Everyone has to start somewhere.



cwren2472 said:


> I'm sure @RichardBongIII would agree with you that someone else should hold the unsuspecting jockey's hand and manage his finances, business, responsibilties,....


I highly doubt that and you're putting words into my monitor ink.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Guess I'm an idealist. I'm looking for long term relationships with customers and hope they desire the same. And I would hope we would both know that a $10 cut isn't good for either of us. Maybe this makes me a slimebag business owner/employer.
> 
> To each their own I guess.
> 
> ...


How can a contract actually have three parties best interest involved? That's nearly impossible to really achieve from this type of service contract.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

cwren2472 said:


> I guess... you can make the argument that capitalism is greed then. Perhaps @snowngo and @RichardBongIII will take your side.
> 
> I care about getting my lawn mowed.
> 
> ...


The problem with Perfect Competition is that will always drive the price down to zero. That is the entire goal of the NSP's business model. To force all the local plowing companies to bid for one client that controls the their willingness to pay. A situtation where NSP functions like a Monosonpy.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

RichardBongIII said:


> How can a contract actually have three parties best interest involved? That's nearly impossible to really achieve from this type of service contract.


Of course it's achievable - we just need a benevolent socialist dictator to orchestrate it.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

RichardBongIII said:


> How can a contract actually have three parties best interest involved? That's nearly impossible to really achieve from this type of service contract.


I have a couple of sites we sub and I have subcontractors that work for us. In both cases, me as the middle man, I see to it that my subs are happy and I have their best interest in mind. Therefore 3 parties interest are involved.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

cwren2472 said:


> Of course it's achievable - we just need a benevolent socialist dictator to orchestrate it.


Then I'm your man.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RichardBongIII said:


> The problem with Perfect Competition is that will always drive the price down to zero.


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

RichardBongIII said:


> Then I'm your man.


TMI


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RichardBongIII said:


> How can a contract actually have three parties best interest involved? That's nearly impossible to really achieve from this type of service contract.


Why can't it be?


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

m_ice said:


> I have a couple of sites we sub and I have subcontractors that work for us. In both cases, me as the middle man, I see to it that my subs are happy and I have their best interest in mind. Therefore 3 parties interest are involved.


Okay but if each of you are out to get the absolute best price for your labor, your middle man activies and the client his dollars-- who do you scarfice the Client by rasing the price? The Sub by lowering his or her cut or your own cut?


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Why can't it be?


You just had to ask...


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

RichardBongIII said:


> Okay but if each of you are out to get the absolute best price for your labor, your middle man activies and the client his dollars-- who do you scarfice the Client by rasing the price? The Sub by lowering his or her cut or your own cut?


When did I say anyone was out to get the best price?

We have sites outside of our service area were the customer prefers to deal with us knowing there will he added cost in subbing. We make a fair cut as does our sub and the customer gets the service the expect. Win-win for all 3 parties.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Why can't it be?


As a client I want to alway pay the least and get the most value for my job. As a service provider I want to charge the most with least amount of costs. As a sub-contractor I too want the least amount of costs and the most amount for my work. So, If I need $95.00 for my subcontracting work per hour and you need $140 per hour for your middleman contracting that means we have to charge $235 per hour. Now, as a client this might be a good deal for me with your company. However, if I find a guy that has the manpower and staff and only needs $200 per hour. I win out. So, you see if another company is more efficient and more capable your three way contract has to favor one side over the other. Either you as the middle man find a more effective or cheaper Subcontractor or you yourself as the middleman take a lower cut.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RichardBongIII said:


> Okay but if each of you are out to get the absolute best price for your labor, your middle man activies and the client his dollars-- who do you scarfice the Client by rasing the price? The Sub by lowering his or her cut or your own cut?


Why does it have to be a zero sum agreement?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RichardBongIII said:


> As a client I want to alway pay the least and get the most value for my job. As a service provider I want to charge the most with least amount of costs. As a sub-contractor I too want the least amount of costs and the most amount for my work. So, If I need $95.00 for my subcontracting work per hour and you need $140 per hour for your middleman contracting that means we have to charge $235 per hour. Now, as a client this might be a good deal for me with your company. However, if I find a guy that has the manpower and staff and only needs $200 per hour. I win out. So, you see if another company is more efficient and more capable your three way contract has to favor one side over the other. Either you as the middle man find a more effective or cheaper Subcontractor or you yourself as the middleman take a lower cut.


Your lack of understanding capitalism is shining brightly.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

RichardBongIII said:


> As a client I want to alway pay the least and get the most value for my job.


"always paying the least" does not equal "most value" - anyone who has ever paid for ANYTHING knows that.



RichardBongIII said:


> As a service provider I want to charge the most with least amount of costs.


Not necessarily. Cutting every corner is a great way to piss off a customer and lose that customer. Thereby resulting is zero future dollars.



RichardBongIII said:


> As a sub-contractor I too want the least amount of costs and the most amount for my work.


Not necessarily for the exact same reason as above but substitute "NSP" for "customer"



RichardBongIII said:


> So, If I need $95.00 for my subcontracting work per hour and you need $140 per hour for your middleman contracting that means we have to charge $235 per hour. Now, as a client this might be a good deal for me with your company. However, if I find a guy that has the manpower and staff and only needs $200 per hour. I win out. So, you see if another company is more efficient and more capable your three way contract has to favor one side over the other. Either you as the middle man find a more effective or cheaper Subcontractor or you yourself as the middleman take a lower cut.


Didn't bother to read the rest of the above.

edit: Mark said it more succinctly


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

m_ice said:


> When did I say anyone was out to get the best price?
> 
> We have sites outside of our service area were the customer prefers to deal with us knowing there will he added cost in subbing. We make a fair cut as does our sub and the customer gets the service the expect. Win-win for all 3 parties.


Do, all three parties win-win? There might be other factors like they enjoy the way you do your work. Or you have great customer service or you have excellent response times to emergency calls. THose all could outweight the cost advantage that occurs in some competitive markets. But, if we are talking only by price there is really now way a three party contract including sub contractors can out do a single contractor with lower costs and greater efficienceis.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

cwren2472 said:


> "always paying the least" does not equal "most value" - anyone who has ever paid for ANYTHING knows that.
> 
> Not necessarily. Cutting every corner is a great way to piss off a customer and lose that customer. Thereby resulting is zero future dollars.
> 
> ...


Depends on your idea of Value-- if value is only the amount of revenue you save between using producer x and y of a widget than yes, statement is correct. However, if you value things like so-called quality , warranties, costumer service, and so on then no savings in revenue might not offset this. But, in a boardroom with a NSP dealing with another boardroom of executives the answer is always dollars and cents.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Your lack of understanding capitalism is shining brightly.


Oh please do give me a lesson Dr. Friedman.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RichardBongIII said:


> Depends on your idea of Value-- if value is only the amount of revenue you save between using producer x and y of a widget than yes, statement is correct. However, if you value things like so-called quality , warranties, costumer service, and so on then no savings in revenue might not offset this. But, in a boardroom with a NSP dealing with another boardroom of executives the answer is always dollars and cents.


Again, why are NSP's failing, closing and reopening under a new name if this is the only way it works?


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Again, why are NSP's failing, closing and reopening under a new name if this is the only way it works?


There could be lots of reasons. One is they hire cheap subcontractors that don't work out. Two is they might be trying to avoid certain legal responsibilities. I've never researched the market for NSP's so I really don't know exactly how they are strucutured and how they construct their business model except for the fact that purchase in bulk large retail contracts and then bid them out to subcontractors.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

RichardBongIII said:


> But, if we are talking only by price there is really now way a three party contract including sub contractors can out do a single contractor with lower costs and greater efficienceis.


Of course they can. Way back earlier I gave the example of "BigBoxCo" who would much rather negotiate one time for 500 locations rather than negotiate 500 times at 500 locations. If they pay an extra 20% to that company to orchestrate it, that's still a plus because there is no way they could expect 500 store managers to have enough experience to negotiate the best contract 500 times. Even if a few managers achieved a fair price with a good contractor, there would still be many who negotiated awful prices with awful companies.

Mark earlier mentioned a company he worked for where he was paid the same as what he would have for that site anyway. I'm sure the NSP did not do it as a charity so clearly they made a profit off it. And if Mark did a good job, the client was likely happy anyway.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

RichardBongIII said:


> The problem with Perfect Competition is that will always drive the price down to zero. That is the entire goal of the NSP's business model. To force all the local plowing companies to bid for one client that controls the their willingness to pay. A situtation where NSP functions like a Monosonpy.


Expect it won't drive the price to zero. Unless people out there are willing to work for free.

The NSP will never control 100% of the snowplow market. So they still need to offer enough money to entice people to work for them rather than just find other accounts.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

RichardBongIII said:


> So, If I need $95.00 for my subcontracting work per hour and you need $140 per hour for your middleman contracting that means we have to charge $235 per hour. Now, as a client this might be a good deal for me with your company. However, if I find a guy that has the manpower and staff and only needs $200 per hour. I win out. So, you see if another company is more efficient and more capable your three way contract has to favor one side over the other. Either you as the middle man find a more effective or cheaper Subcontractor or you yourself as the middleman take a lower cut.


Finally read this - if the middleman is making 150% more than the contractor doing the actual work, maybe I need to get into this NSP thing.... how hard can it be to start one? I'm good at pushing paper.


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

cwren2472 said:


> Finally read this - if the middleman is making 150% more than the contractor doing the actual work, maybe I need to get into this NSP thing.... how hard can it be to start one? I'm good at pushing paper.


Why do you think the NSP's want cheap contractors?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cwren2472 said:


> Expect it won't drive the price to zero. Unless people out there are willing to work for free.
> 
> The NSP will never control 100% of the snowplow market. So they still need to offer enough money to entice people to work for them rather than just find other accounts.


Well there you go...people will work for free because the gubmint is going to print quadrillions of dollars and pay everyone a UBI.

Oh wait...let me check how well that worked in:
USSR-nope
E Germany-nope
All the former eastern European countries-nope
North Korea-nope
Cuba-nope
Venezuela-nope

Nevermind, carry on.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

RichardBongIII said:


> Why do you think the NSP's want cheap contractors?


Why do you think they do?


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

RichardBongIII said:


> Why do you think the NSP's want cheap contractors?


Do you know any cheap contractors? Have them send me their info:

"[email protected]"


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

keep politics out of the real discussions and if you are not a business owner, nor in the industry then you should NOT be responding to these discussions...yes, I am referring to you @RichardBongIII


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

cwren2472 said:


> Expect it won't drive the price to zero. Unless people out there are willing to work for free.
> 
> The NSP will never control 100% of the snowplow market. So they still need to offer enough money to entice people to work for them rather than just find other accounts.


I don't know about that. The NSP might change tactics and instead of directly hiring companies they will turn themselves into platforms that only create the marketplace for provider and client. It is completely possible that a big company will contract with techn-company that creates an service provider software designed like this to create a market place where Big Retail store gets create a condition where contractors are directly bidding for control of a region and this could create a prefect competition scenario.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)




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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Mark Oomkes said:


> View attachment 226465


Really, it does? Does your refrigerator , stove, microwave and so on last as long as it did in the 1950's or even the 1970's?


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> keep politics out of the real discussions and if you are not a business owner, nor in the industry then you should NOT be responding to these discussions...yes, I am referring to you @RichardBongIII


I am business owner actually. Oh and I have a master degree in Economics... So, tell me one thing I said here that was a) false or b) not just plain economic theory. Please do tell me?

I simple explained the effect large scale operations like this have on price and demand.

For example lets say a bunch of people in a town formed a consumer-cooperative for the services of snowplow operators--they could exactly the samething that NSP is doing using their economy of scale to reduce the profit margin of the provider or they could increase the profit margin and maintain a better cost ratio with their suppliers. Either could happen.


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## cwren2472 (Aug 15, 2014)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> keep politics out of the real discussions and if you are not a business owner, nor in the industry then you should NOT be responding to these discussions...yes, I am referring to you @RichardBongIII


How does this apply to those tangentially related to the industry? Asking for a friend.


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## Blizzard1974 (Oct 8, 2021)

RichardBongIII said:


> For example lets say a bunch of people in a town formed a consumer-cooperative for the services of snowplow operators--they could exactly the samething that NSP is doing using their economy of scale to reduce the profit margin of the provider or they could increase the profit margin and maintain a better cost ratio with their suppliers. Either could happen.


I don't know where you got this masters degree from but your explanation makes 0 sense in practice. First of all, economies of scale, for those who don't know, is the idea that as you grow a business, costs go down. If you buy more salt, you get a discount. Increased production = lower cost (to a certain point) is the main aspect. So, "using their economy of scale" (which doesn't even make sense in this situation) why the hell would they REDUCE their profit margin. It is also extremely difficult to apply economies of scale to a consumer-cooperative as they all have different ways of operating their business, different costs, so many variables. It is intended to be applied to singular enterprises.

I do not have a masters degree in economics. You just wanted to use show off your "degree" to try and shut people up and make your point. A few local snow guys coming together would absolutely not be the same in function as a NSP... "they could exactly the samething that NSP is doing"

Not trying to be a dick... kind of... just feel like you are pulling BS out to try and make a point


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## RichardBongIII (Dec 8, 2021)

Blizzard1974 said:


> I don't know where you got this masters degree from but your explanation makes 0 sense in practice. First of all, economies of scale, for those who don't know, is the idea that as you grow a business, costs go down. If you buy more salt, you get a discount. Increased production = lower cost (to a certain point) is the main aspect. So, "using their economy of scale" (which doesn't even make sense in this situation) why the hell would they REDUCE their profit margin. It is also extremely difficult to apply economies of scale to a consumer-cooperative as they all have different ways of operating their business, different costs, so many variables. It is intended to be applied to singular enterprises.
> 
> I do not have a masters degree in economics. You just wanted to use show off your "degree" to try and shut people up and make your point. A few local snow guys coming together would absolutely not be the same in function as a NSP... "they could exactly the samething that NSP is doing"
> 
> Not trying to be a dick... kind of... just feel like you are pulling BS out to try and make a point


Its really just an information efficiency issue in this case. NSP's purchase all the contracts for the BIG Retail stores and then they attempt to coordinate with subcontracts. The same basic idea explains any economic transaction. And sine larger united groups communicate more efficiently they can create relationships between the supplier and the client very efficiently.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

It still blows my mind how most of these NSP operate. I feel like good ones could set themselves up for huge success for eternity. They obviously have the sales people with the ability or contacts to solicit all the nationwide corporations. But just continue to drop the ball on the service end by not vetting the contractors (and coming close to a price to land vetted contractors)…maybe they shine with HVAC, grounds maintenance, etc and are only severely dropping the ball with snow…You’d think at some point, they would want an approved vendor list that they can go to each time they sign a new huge company up…call oomkes in Michigan and see how many of these Walgreens he can take on…call the Bitcoin miner in Indiana and see if he has somejuan that can plow a few in his area…does prezek venture into Baltimore city or just the surrounding counties? Do his guys need us to tack on hazard pay or a body armor stipend?….once they solidify most of their locations with good contractors, then maybe they have to scrape the bottom of the barrel with new snow guys for a few stores but most should be headache free and the golden goose customer writing huge checks is satisfied. But what do I know.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

prezek said:


> call oomkes in Michigan and see how many of these Walgreens he can take on


I've ranted before about how the Walgreen's are getting screwed up here. Guy was liquid only and they would be applying during a blizzard, ice storm, 3"/hour snowfall rates, etc. Crap just washed right down the drain. And this is 3-4 times per day. Or applying it to a couple inches of snow during a late snowfall.

They are a complete joke and only in it for the money, not the good of the customer.


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I've ranted before about how the Walgreen's are getting screwed up here. Guy was liquid only and they would be applying during a blizzard, ice storm, 3"/hour snowfall rates, etc. Crap just washed right down the drain. And this is 3-4 times per day. Or applying it to a couple inches of snow during a late snowfall.
> 
> They are a complete joke and only in it for the money, not the good of the customer.


And you could swap Walgreens for a thousand other companies.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

Well fellas I know for fact Whst some company’s pay national company’s to provide services. Honestly it is way more than good money to do the job as expected. They take a far more than fair of the top for them selfs. I have emails of company’s offering 1000 per month for Best Buy really before it was over cost was 3500 per month.

I wish we could go back to prove to me you have equipment to provide services to me!!! Not some guy with a laptop with zero idea of what it takes other than numbers shell game they plsy


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## dlcs (Sep 2, 2004)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I've ranted before about how the Walgreen's are getting screwed up here. Guy was liquid only and they would be applying during a blizzard, ice storm, 3"/hour snowfall rates, etc. Crap just washed right down the drain. And this is 3-4 times per day. Or applying it to a couple inches of snow during a late snowfall.
> 
> They are a complete joke and only in it for the money, not the good of the customer.


Same thing here. I got booted from my 3 walgreen stores 2 years ago when Dividiots took over. Now there service is horrible, one plowing is all they get in a 6 inch storm. When I go to the drive up pharmacy my truck cab hits the low hanging tree limbs in the drive up lane. Really sad to see them go down hill so fast.


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