# National & Regional Snow Contractors



## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

The real enemy out there is not the "lowballer", i.e. a guy who has more guts than brains and only knows how to underbid to get work. These guys either learn fast and up their prices, or die on the vine within a couple of years. The real enemy is national and regional marketeers who actually own very little equipment. They very effectively mine larger markets for the inexperienced lowballers who think $45-50 an hour is great for subcontracting. They burn these guys up and replace them. 40% withholding until June 1st -what??? Got any true stories? If they are true, share 'em. These guys are bad for the industry. You should see the POS showing up on some Minneapolis sites since a bigger name moved in recently.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

C'mon guys. I am new to this site and disappointed that with 109 views, no one has any input on this subject. Are more people actually interested in whether or not some guy across the country has his dog or girlfriend ride with on a push? Aside from you resi guys, doesn't anyone out there realize that Walmartization is even creeping into snow removal? Are you going to wait until you lose a good commercial account or two before you realize you have a real threat to your business and industry pricing in general? Any opinions? Bueller.... Bueller


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

There has been many posts in the past few years regarding these national corporations. One of our very own, very well known was/is a contributor to this phenomonen. If you'd like some reading with personal experiences of being cheated out of money; search on "US MAINTENANCE" and "Symbiot". When you have spent several HOURS reading, follow some of the links or get back with me and I'll give you some others to check out.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Don't forget Dentco and Superior Maintenance or whatever as well.

Or try area management. 

Ryan, you're absolutely correct and we've talked numerous times about this way of doing business, that's why you're not seeing much discussion. Heck, there's hour's worth of posts that have been deleted on this subject.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Mark Oomkes;430401 said:


> Don't forget Dentco and Superior Maintenance or whatever as well.


Superior Management Group (SMG). There was another one with the initials SMG, but I forget what it was.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*OK Mick, I guess I am late to the party...*

Those old threads were good reading. I put in a bid for a Best Buy this year with US Maintenance. We didn't get it because it went out at about 30% over OUR standard rates -because of their terms. I am still reading up, but I have not heard of any feasible ways for the smaller operators to beat them. They are appealing to corporate management types who would not recognize the difference between a good service or a bad one -only that it saves them administrative costs. These higher-ups are hard to get in front of, unless you can say that you are a regional or national provider.

PS. The newest one in our market is from Kansas and they do only snow. It seems most posts on this site are from the Norheast, and they have no penetration there... yet.


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

I Think We Should All Get Together And Form A National Company And Charge The Rates That We Deserve To Get I Am Sure That With The Amount Of People On This Site We Could Pull It Off


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

dfdsuperduty;430654 said:


> I Think We Should All Get Together And Form A National Company And Charge The Rates That We Deserve To Get I Am Sure That With The Amount Of People On This Site We Could Pull It Off


you mean a union?

i will sign up. i pay union dues now so whats a little more. thats actually not a bad idea because we could probably get a group discount on insurance and truck parts. and 

i dont think a national company would make it doing snow removal past newyork. even the big companies up here hate other big companies.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

I've heard many horror stories, however there are a few good ones out there that will do ALOT to help someone getting started with equipment, salt, and just learing the ropes. USM is a pain, but HPK and ATS have been very helpful to me.


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## T-Trim (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm in NE Ohio, GO Bucks. 

A union sounds like a very good idea. Snow/Ice is no thing to laugh at some people get badly hurt in the thick of it.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Right idea*

I don't know if "union" is the best approach, but an organization with some union attributes might be a step in the right direction. What about an association that is created to promote the local snow provider. You mention your affiliation during every sales call, inviting a discussion with your prospect on why the association was created. This opens the door for you, in a professional and back door way, to slam your competition. We could promote suggested price ranges, or guidelines for different regions and promote this as member education. It would not be price fixing, since members would compete within the range, and may the best contract/service/price/salesman win. You could also present a list of committments that members make to clients such as "I will not dump 3 tons of salt where only 1 is needed" for humor, as well as some serious sales points. Any other ideas?


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

You mean something like this: http://www.sima.org/ ?


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Of course*

It sure seems like the BIG competition boasts membership to SIMA on their websites, which kind of voids the point of promoting the little guy, doesn't it. Is there any criteria that says "I pledge that at least 75% of the equipment deployed is company owned and employee operated" or something to that effect?


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Ryan K;430679 said:


> I don't know if "union" is the best approach, but an organization with some union attributes might be a step in the right direction. What about an association that is created to promote the local snow provider. You mention your affiliation during every sales call, inviting a discussion with your prospect on why the association was created. This opens the door for you, in a professional and back door way, to slam your competition. We could promote suggested price ranges, or guidelines for different regions and promote this as member education. It would not be price fixing, since members would compete within the range, and may the best contract/service/price/salesman win. You could also present a list of committments that members make to clients such as "I will not dump 3 tons of salt where only 1 is needed" for humor, as well as some serious sales points. Any other ideas?


better off with the union. there are federal advantages to having a union. one of them not having to worry about price fixing. another being negotiating rights that a association would not have. unions are protected. associations have no legal standing. union has arbitration rights. association doesnt. union if your not paid the union brings the person into arbitration and follows with court to get the pay. association just whines. they have no rights to argue, negotiate, or sue for anything.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

You mean price fixing?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

bribrius;430695 said:


> better off with the union. there are federal advantages to having a union. one of them not having to worry about price fixing. another being negotiating rights that a association would not have. unions are protected. associations have no legal standing. union has arbitration rights. association doesnt. union if your not paid the union brings the person into arbitration and follows with court to get the pay. association just whines. they have no rights to argue, negotiate, or sue for anything.


A union, heck we can't even agree on what color of truck is best for plowing or what oil to use.
Who are you going to have this contract with?
Each and every customer?
A union is a bad idea and after the pain killers wear off I might tell you why.
Free enterprise..

P.s. I belong to a union now all a union does is get rich off the blood and sweat of it's members.
I would rather keep my money.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Union?*

Wouldn't a union open up a new can of worms for those of us that are employers? Maybe this should be more of a PR campaign/affiliate network? If the goal is to promote the local company and compete with these guys, you have to compete. If I hire you at $50 an hour, and bill BIG BOX CO $70 per hour, that is profit -BUT, the fact that I also organized, researched, verified credentials of 200 vendors to handle your 1000 stores, now that is an additional service. It seems these end clients have chosen poor service as the trade off for outsourcing their administrative headaches.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

SnoFarmer;430701 said:


> A union, heck we can't even agree on what color of truck is best for plowing or what oil to use.
> Who are you going to have this contract with?
> Each and every customer?
> A union is a bad idea and after the pain killers wear off I might tell you why.
> ...


(here we go again) lol.

personally, i dont care if anyone joined a snow removal union or not. if they had one though. i would sign up.

who are the contracts with? you could start with the regional/national chains, towns cities, and work your way down. point being that it regulates the value of the service.

free enterprise? means the fifty k job can be bid for twenty five k. havent you noticed everyone on here complaining that the jobs are going cheaper and cheaper and the profit is dissappearing.

tell ya. you and mark oomkes. i like ya both but i just dont understand you. you preach free enterprise but get upset that the bottom is falling out of this type of work. free enterprise is the reason...... too funny.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

..................


bribrius;430717 said:


> (here we go again) lol.
> 
> personally, i dont care if anyone joined a snow removal union or not. if they had one though. i would sign up.
> 
> ...


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Ryan K;430714 said:


> Wouldn't a union open up a new can of worms for those of us that are employers? Maybe this should be more of a PR campaign/affiliate network? If the goal is to promote the local company and compete with these guys, you have to compete. If I hire you at $50 an hour, and bill BIG BOX CO $70 per hour, that is profit -BUT, the fact that I also organized, researched, verified credentials of 200 vendors to handle your 1000 stores, now that is an additional service. It seems these end clients have chosen poor service as the trade off for outsourcing their administrative headaches.


might help you out. first of all i dont think it would start with you if you are smaller. probably start with bigger companies. it could level the playing field for you. if you wanted to ask your employees if they would like to join it may give you more pull when bidding. offer more employee retention. give the employees benefits that you wouldnt have to carry but they would still have accessible just because you are a union employer and they are union. think of construction unions or electric/telephone companies unions. the fact that the union is doing the work is more promoted than the work itself. kind of like a guarantee of a level of quality and a guarantee it will get done. i dont know why. but union work still seems to have pull even though the actual unions are getting smaller. strange phenomenon. i know the electric company came to fix a line on my building the other day. the guy was union. did a good job. worked hard. and i had not a doubt that he knew what he was doing and it would be done right. ive had some bad experiences with non union work. never with union work. a lot of big commercial construction is still given to union because the person hiring (often a city) finds a certain security in it. i think the unions have changed alot. they realized if they drive a business under and make it so it cant compete it puts its own members out of jobs. they want the employer to be profitable its job security. they also realized the workforce level needs to be productive and knowledgeable or when contract time comes they cant ask for good pay for the work.
to each there own. another perspective is that when you bid out to a customer the union will want the members to have the work so in a strange way the union will back you up in bidding. enough of this speech eh? almost sounds like im a union promoter and im really not. im also putting myself to sleep.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

A self employed person, looking to start a union, deserves absolutely everything they have coming to them.

You can take that statement any way you'd like.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

LwnmwrMan22;430759 said:


> A self employed person, looking to start a union, deserves absolutely everything they have coming to them.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> What he said.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Ryan K -

Is the company out of Kansas you're talking about Quality Control Solutions??

I was doing a Checkers here in Forest Lake for them a couple of years, however now Checkers has gone back to a corporate bid process.

Another guy you need to look for is Lynde Enterprises out of Corcoran. He's got all the McDonalds, Arbys, Valvoline Oil Changes, Burger Kings, Dennys, TCF's, others in about a 100 mile radius of the Twin Cities.

Usually I find you can get paid decently from these guys as subs on the outlying properties that they can't get to, but you're going to be waiting 60-90 days for your money.

Somewhat worth it if you have an 80% full schedule, and am just looking for 1-2 filler properties.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

bribrius;430695 said:


> better off with the union.


The only union I have any respect for locally is the Boilermakers and they are basically a employment agency and training center. Around here they don't picket jobs, lock out non-unions, they just provide the best trained, professionals in the field, fantastic welders. They deal with unreliable and unproductive workers internally, complain to the union hall they'll take care of it. They are not cheap by the hour but the quality of the work you get is worth the money.

Unions as a collective bargaining group have their place, look what they're doing to the auto industry. I just don't see Snow removal as that place. If you are considering a union as a customer bargaining tool  The only thing I see a union doing is driving up the cost of Subs.

JMO


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I don't think it's them. Can't remember the name, but they were making a big splash at the SIMA Symposium this past summer and nobody that I spoke with was all that impressed. 

Don't worry, they're just a flash in the pan, just like SMG was. The problem being, they do lower the pricing over the entire market in the mean time.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Lwnmwrman*

The company is actually Truenorth, we did some work for them last year and got paid in a decent fashion. I cannot say that I would lump them in with Symbiots, Smg, Dentco, for that reason, but the presence of another regional/national player is of concern anyhow.

Checker in FL? We are neighbors. I actually bid on about 20 checkers this past spring for a company called , Genissus. They are another US Maintenance type of company, though I cannot say I've read good or bad about them. I did get the rep to confide that the bid request did not mean that they even had the contract yet -guess they have us do the footwork. It is a good thing I gave them a google-bid.

I know Lynde has been around along time to have all those chains locked-up. Always a time for change though, right?


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Ryan K;430888 said:


> The company is actually Truenorth, we did some work for them last year and got paid in a decent fashion. I cannot say that I would lump them in with Symbiots, Smg, Dentco, for that reason, but the presence of another regional/national player is of concern anyhow.
> 
> Checker in FL? We are neighbors. I actually bid on about 20 checkers this past spring for a company called , Genissus. They are another US Maintenance type of company, though I cannot say I've read good or bad about them. I did get the rep to confide that the bid request did not mean that they even had the contract yet -guess they have us do the footwork. It is a good thing I gave them a google-bid.
> 
> I know Lynde has been around along time to have all those chains locked-up. Always a time for change though, right?


I know the Burger King in North Branch has split away from Lynde, personally though, I don't really care, it's not my niche market.

Banks, small strip malls seem to fit my niche the best. I do the Famous Daves in Forest Lake, a gas stattion in Wyoming, pretty much everything else is a bank or strip mall. I like them because the owners usually have 2-3-4-5-6 different locations fairly close (within 15 miles) of each other. You can get multiple locations out of one invoice.

Where are you located at??


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

We cover the north metro, based here as well. We go up to Hugo and Centerville for a couple of small jobs only because they are tied to other closer work. We haven't subbed for or out very much -trying to keep company run as much as possible. How long have you been in the biz?


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Ryan K;430916 said:


> We cover the north metro, based here as well. We go up to Hugo and Centerville for a couple of small jobs only because they are tied to other closer work. We haven't subbed for or out very much -trying to keep company run as much as possible. How long have you been in the biz?


This will be my 13th year plowing, was the 19th season doing lawn work.

There's a bank just to the east of 35 at the Hugo Centerville exit, Patriot Bank, I do that one as well.

If you're ever in a bind, can't get up to those accounts, just need them opened up in a storm... I've got 3 trucks running around this area, Hugo to North Branch.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*How to contact?*

You are right on top of my our accounts there, and I would definetly like your number handy. Break-outs on these accounts are easy, but you might save us considerable drive time. Maybe we can return the favor for you on some accounts? How can I get ahold of you?


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## NLS1 (Jun 25, 2007)

Glad a couple of you have a free enterprise brain!
Union?  Maybe we should revive communism, that way "The government can take care of us!"  
Don't give someone or some organization control over your life and business any more than already happens.


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## Jbowe (Mar 22, 2006)

*Unions*

I don't think a union as such is a good idea. But there are lots of guys on this site that are regulars and what might be a better idea would be to form an association, lets say 25.00 a year for membership which proceeds could be used for decals, monthly letters, and a prfessional web site. It sounds to me like what all of us are chargeing per truck hour is fairly close no matter what part of the country we are in. With an association we could actually set an average cost for hrs which would be good no matter where your at. That way should someone move to another part of the country and try to get established the one thing they would not have to worry about is the averages in that area because they would already be set. Then set up a board from within to meet once a month, that could be done through the internet if they're from different sides of the country. We could establish guidelines to meet in order to become association members that we can display in our offices and on our trucks ( stickers). Being a member of an association that has ridgid guidelines to a professionally run program lends legitamcy to the profession that can be used in our advertiseing. Just as accepting credit cards does. We could maintain a web site for customers to verify membership etc. Just a few ideas. Up here in Alaska we did something similar with pilot cars. By doing so we were able to actually get more for miles then we did prior. All because we set minimum guidelings to become members.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Jbowe;431035 said:


> I don't think a union as such is a good idea. But there are lots of guys on this site that are regulars and what might be a better idea would be to form an association, lets say 25.00 a year for membership which proceeds could be used for decals, monthly letters, and a prfessional web site. It sounds to me like what all of us are chargeing per truck hour is fairly close no matter what part of the country we are in. With an association we could actually set an average cost for hrs which would be good no matter where your at. That way should someone move to another part of the country and try to get established the one thing they would not have to worry about is the averages in that area because they would already be set. Then set up a board from within to meet once a month, that could be done through the internet if they're from different sides of the country. We could establish guidelines to meet in order to become association members that we can display in our offices and on our trucks ( stickers). Being a member of an association that has ridgid guidelines to a professionally run program lends legitamcy to the profession that can be used in our advertiseing. Just as accepting credit cards does. We could maintain a web site for customers to verify membership etc. Just a few ideas. Up here in Alaska we did something similar with pilot cars. By doing so we were able to actually get more for miles then we did prior. All because we set minimum guidelings to become members.


sounds like a good idea. not much different then sima...
question: what would i get for my 25 dollars a year that I COULD ACTUALLY USE. id like to have something more than a sticker. as far as the name recognition of the association. there wont be any. ive been in a couple associations and other than those directly related to the association or business no one really knew or cared what it was.  for instance sima. im sure its a great organization but how many people know or care what it actually is? do your customers? i dont know anyone but those on this site that know what sima is (at least they never mentioned it). i dont know. just asking. sima might be the greatest gift to snow removal.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

I would be concerned that a union would limit the earning potential of people who are superior production managers with superior operators. I think an association with some guidelines is better, but like you just said Bri, what good is a sticker and a memberhip to an organization that our prospective clients have never heard of. Sima has already done a great job of setting some guidelines for good business/trade practices, but they do not address pricing, or specifically promote the smaller OPERATOR. I think it would be important to distinguish between companies who earn their living by doing the job from start to finish, and companies who specialize in sales and management to earn a percentage of the charge to the customer. You could establish and promote an affiliate network to the bigger chains that would allow them to more easily "go local for better service" and yet consolidate vendors at the same time.

As for some tangible return on investment? Yes, we need more than a sticker. What if you had people willing to sell on behalf of the affiliation. i.e. obtain an invitation to bid a national chain and then distribute the invitation, and specs to our membership. Then compile the bids to present the chain with, allowing them to chose from our affiliate network which has saved them the time of soliciting competitive bids. By the way, did I mention that our network has already verified and has on file the up-to-date proof insurance that meets the clients specs? We would then only need to cooperate somehow to streamline billing -and do it without actually becoming the entity which we are against, then we are competing with value added.

Lastly, dues should also be saved for a massive PR blitz, but targeted specifically to property owners/managers. It could be in the trade magazines, some radio if the demo is right, etc... It would begin in mid august and run through the beginning of winter. Anyone heard the line "Beef, it's what's for dinner" -American Cattlemen Association, or how about the one about the "local hardware store where the people know their stuff" -to combat Lowes, Home Depot, etc... just takes time, persistance, and a membership that believes in the cause.


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Ryan K;431086 said:


> I would be concerned that a union would limit the earning potential of people who are superior production managers with superior operators. I think an association with some guidelines is better, but like you just said Bri, what good is a sticker and a memberhip to an organization that our prospective clients have never heard of. Sima has already done a great job of setting some guidelines for good business/trade practices, but they do not address pricing, or specifically promote the smaller OPERATOR. I think it would be important to distinguish between companies who earn their living by doing the job from start to finish, and companies who specialize in sales and management to earn a percentage of the charge to the customer. You could establish and promote an affiliate network to the bigger chains that would allow them to more easily "go local for better service" and yet consolidate vendors at the same time.
> 
> As for some tangible return on investment? Yes, we need more than a sticker. What if you had people willing to sell on behalf of the affiliation. i.e. obtain an invitation to bid a national chain and then distribute the invitation, and specs to our membership. Then compile the bids to present the chain with, allowing them to chose from our affiliate network which has saved them the time of soliciting competitive bids. By the way, did I mention that our network has already verified and has on file the up-to-date proof insurance that meets the clients specs? We would then only need to cooperate somehow to streamline billing -and do it without actually becoming the entity which we are against, then we are competing with value added.
> 
> Lastly, dues should also be saved for a massive PR blitz, but targeted specifically to property owners/managers. It could be in the trade magazines, some radio if the demo is right, etc... It would begin in mid august and run through the beginning of winter. Anyone heard the line "Beef, it's what's for dinner" -American Cattlemen Association, or how about the one about the "local hardware store where the people know their stuff" -to combat Lowes, Home Depot, etc... just takes time, persistance, and a membership that believes in the cause.


Which is all fine and dandy, but ......

even in my area, no one will even THINK about mentioning a price to anyone else, It's like you're then going to use that as a tool against them in a bid down the road.

I'll be talking to some of the "competition" and throw out that I'm trying to get my number up to $100-125 / hour for a truck / 8' plow. They think I'm nuts. I have had a couple of guys that I sub landscaping work out to, that mention they're having a hard time getting $75-80 / hour for a truck / 8' plow.

We see it all the time here. You guys on the coast, you look at us midwesterners like we're nuts to work for only $100 / hour. Us guys in the midwest look at some of the guys in the snowbelt that they're nuts for working for $50-60 / hour.

There's no way you can streamline the bidding process, because different areas of the country have different lifestyles. This is why accounts that are tied in with national companies, especially those based out of snow areas. They get a price for $50 / hour for a property in a cheap area, then they think everyone in the country should be doing it for $50 / hour, They then hold out until either someone matches it, or gets darn close.

Then the following year, someone figures out they got underbid, but they really want that account, as it's right next to one they're already doing, they think the contractor is no good, whatever the reason, so they bid it $5 / hour cheaper. The national company is happy, because it's cheaper, and they have no personal ties with the contractor. Now the previous contractor that lost the account, rather than go bid something at a HIGHER rate, is probably wondering where that next $50 / hour is going to come from, so he goes out and bids a different property for less than what it should be, because he now needs the work.

It doesn't help that the national company probably held off until 1 week before the snow was to fly, so now the contractor that's out the work is scrambling even harder for work.

It's a cycle I've tried to stay away from. I target smaller owner / operator type operations where I can deal with the property owner themselves. Build that personal relationship. Maybe salt their home drive once or twice with a thank you card instead of an invoice. Those types of things will go alot farther than any type of "union" / "association" will for most of us on this board.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*I agree*

I too shoot for owners and locally based managers who I can meet face to face. This is the best way to get long-term business. I visit them all with fancy chocolates for the whole office every christmas. It is also true that each of us who realizes this can further himself faster than membership to some association, and it may hold true while these big companies slowy erode the industry's price integrity (what little there is).

OK, take out the sharing of pricing and just agree on a bottom limit to keep lowballers out. Then Mr. Corporate Buyer requests a bid from the network, the request goes out, and you return your your bids in the requested format directly to Mr. Corporate Buyer. This would give you an audience you would not otherwise have due to your "large network" and eliminate any fears of someone peeking at your pricing.

This is just food for thought, since most of us are to busy to undertake something like this. So shoot as many holes in it as you can, I still think the PR aspect of promoting the little guy to Property owners and Managers is truly needed.

PS. I avoid hourly pricing at all costs and use it only on sites requiring many post snow fall clean-up visits. You should be making 125, 200, 300, even 400 per hour during snowfall.


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## Jbowe (Mar 22, 2006)

*Association*

Ok guys you all jumped on that one and thats good. Thats what a board of directors is for and thats to work out details like advertiseing and such. As they say Rome was not built in a day. What you get for a membership would have to be decided but for one I think that advertiseing in a National Trade Journal would be a good idea. There are so many things that could be done as a group that the list would be endless as long as enough people were there to be able to cover the costs.
As for priceing being secret, of course it is. Thats because there is no guidlines that everyone goes by. Its cut the next guys throat. But thats mostly caused from the low ballers that are unlicensed and running alone. An association might be able to eliminate some of that problem. It gives legitimacy to those who participate. Bidding would still be a war but you would be playing on a level field and then its who can do the best job for the least amount. But its not going to cause you to run cheap just to get a job. None of us are in this to lose money, at least I hope not. But I will tell you this much, a customer will pay 5 dollars more if they know they are getting someone reputable and not just a fly by night. Also if the association were to maintain a good web site and you were to put that in your ads believe me people will check you out and thats what you want. The same with credit cards. The minute you put the stickers in your window it makies a difference because it makes you a legit company and people today would rather charge then spend their cash. Don't think of this as what do I get for the 25 if that were the fee, it was just an example but what can we do for each other to promote our individual companies in a way that benefits all. Heck a case of beer cost 25 dollars now. Anyway thats how I see it.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Looks like I made a self-fulfilling prophecy.   

Could've just edited the part to Bri, the rest about the unions being for employees and not contractors was on target.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;431205 said:


> Looks like I made a self-fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> Could've just edited the part to Bri, the rest about the unions being for employees and not contractors was on target.


nope. i actually posted a response to that on self employed people in unions. sorry mark. not on target.
it was edited too. nice to see you around though. how ya been
?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;431205 said:


> the unions being for employees and not contractors was on target.


 which one are you, bri?

As a contractor I would not want my shop forced to be union.
Only a bad employer should have a union forced upon them.
If you treat your employees right why would they organize on you?

Union workers start at minimum wage they work there way up attaining steps or pay grades with time not on ability.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

indifferent. doesn't effect me.


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

I am currently taking a busines management class online and I am seriously thinking of bringing this idea to my instructors who have many many years of "real world" experience in not only setting up and running busineses but also the marketing end of things. I agree that we should be more of an association like the cattle farmers SIMA etc.... but focesed on the little guys to where we would be able to bid on some of these major big box stores and try to get our feet in the door. I have also kicked around the idea of setting up a franchise much like USLAWNS they have in their contracts with the big box stores if one of the big box stores are in their franchise are in the area they have to go with them. I am up for getting the mountain in motion on this project you never know what may happen. Most people on this site seem to be half way decent with somewhat of a level head and we help each other out with pricing, how to get started, pros and cons of different equip why not attempt to do this together and see where we end up.


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## dfdsuperduty (Dec 12, 2006)

to the top


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Glad this post hasn't died!*

It is good to know this struck a nerve, DF. The post got some good feedback, but many guys do see it as a mountain. I like the franschise model that USlawns has, but you go it somewhat alone with only your franchisees for support, as you are in it for the profit of your organization soley. The association model would offer you more support, and you could still use it as a networking tool to leverage a large membership in garnering attention from big retail chains. You sound serious about doing something. I might be too, just for the challenge. PM me if you would like to collaborate.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Great ideas but a couple questions.

Who will do the sales work to get the attention of the National Mega chains?

Do you expect them to come find you?

Who will handle the incorporation, taxes, insurances, member services and finances?

If more than one "member" is in a area who gets the first job?

If you're trying to standardize rates will the dues generate enough money to pay the lawyer to defend against price fixing charges?

how will you sanction "members" who work for lower rates then the organization agreed upon?

If you use subs will they be required them to join the union?

What about Sidewalk shovelers, Union Members?

At what point does the government become involved?

How do you handle the non-union, un-franchised company's?

What will keep non-participants from under cutting your pricing until you either fail from lack of work or are forced to lower your price to be competitive against them?

Why would the actual contractors cut of a union supplied job be any higher then US maintenance or the others are willing to pay?

who pays the bill for development of a standardized contract and who prints and distributes the contract?

All you guys volunteering for the BoD, is that a paid position?

How about equipment, will you have different rates for each piece of equipment or will you categorize? ie..different rates for .6-7'5' blades, 8-10' blades, Vee blades, Expansion plows (blizzard, DDizzard)

Or the same rates for everyone based on Sq Ft?

Who sets the rates?

What % of income goes to the franchising body or union?

What are the requirements for membership?

Will you require all members have insurance and if so how much and what type?

Who owns the contracts? the organization or the individual?

How do you get to see the organization price schedule, can i join, get the prices then use the information for a guideline to under bid organization members?

This is not a new idea. search the site, it pops up every year. The problem is how to create an organization that does not evolve into what you are trying to overcome. Read Orwell's Animal Farm" once running at strength and the operation becomes a full time job the process begins to pervert. The organization and it's growth becomes more important to the organization's employees then the individual members needs.


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## AintNoFun (Nov 26, 2003)

gooluck starting a union in nj. you'd have to fight the teamsters to drive the trucks, the laborers for the walks and the operators for the equipment. you start making that noise around here i gaurantee you wouldn't have anything left of your fleet the night before a big snow fall, lol.....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

basher;436609 said:


> Great ideas but a couple questions.
> 
> Who will do the sales work to get the attention of the National Mega chains?
> 
> ...


Now why did you go and point out all those valid problems\issues? 

What are you thinking man?

BTW, what Basher pointed out is exactly how Symbiot started. Then it did exactly what he said in his last paragraph. Then it bought SMG and it really went downhill.

Call me a pessimist or realist, but either way, your idea won't work. There is and will always be somebody out there who will price lower, whether a member of your association\franchise\union or not. It's called capitalism and that is the economic basis for our country. The slippery slope that you will slide down if this was legal and actually worked would end up being communism, and we (except for most college professors) know that communism just doesn't work.

Great concept, you're not the first to think of it and if you do it, you won't be the first to fail at it.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Who missed the point?*

I personally never considered an actual union. It seems some of you guys cannot get that union thing out of your head. An association would have some "qualifications" that members would need to meet, but in my thinking it would be more of a PR machine for the little guy than an actual for profit business entity. YES, it would start as volunteerism and membership would vote on how best to spend it's "dues" for best overal ROI. Teamsters are not for promoting the small operator by any means -the model would resemble this union in vere very few ways.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Afterthought...*

OK, Mark, Basher -your points are all valid and it is an extremely huge undertaking prone to failure. Let's take out down a few notches to becoming simply a PR campaign to promote the little guy, and let's start out with two simply requirements to promote the little guy:

A) A "member" would pledge that is equipment is 75, 85, 100% company owned/leased and operated.

B) The average age of your equipment must be 5, 6, 7 or ?? years. Sorry to those of you who are stellar mechanics maintaining great older trucks, but many many organizations have age requirements for vehicles used in perfroming the work. This lends reliability and credibility

On these to points alone, you keep out someone whose main business is subbing out without prohibiting it altogether. The equipment age requirement helps stabilize prices without dictating them at all. It takes a certain amount of revenue to support new equipment, and those who running newer and not charging enough will die fast are get in line.

I appreciate the skepticism, but everything is going bigger these days. The middleman cannot make his 10-20% marging without using lowballers. We should be promoting the fact that although there are some good sub relationships that maintain quality, it is much more of a gamble for the property manager. Promote local, target property management companys, maintain a website with links to our membership -that is it. The war over big box stores may already be lost, so we should shore up our local market business before big maintenance has monopolized big retail and sets its sights on YOUR smaller lots.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

big acres;436708 said:


> OK, Mark, Basher -your points are all valid and it is an extremely huge undertaking prone to failure.
> 
> I can agree with that.
> 
> ...


You have not answered even the most basic question. You just started writing by-laws when you could probably just modify from the ones available at http://www.masnowfighters.com/.

Below are a couple threads on this subject.

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=40950&highlight=unions

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=42203&highlight=unions

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=33838&highlight=unions



Mark Oomkes said:


> What are you thinking man?.


I wasn't


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

not my gig but i'll give it a shot just for kicks.



basher;436609 said:


> Great ideas but a couple questions.
> 
> Who will do the sales work to get the attention of the National Mega chains?
> 
> ...


dont know about that but i killed ten minutes filling it out and had to think a little. lots of these are unknown specifics since they are effected by variables unknown! (just a little thinking though)


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

bla bla bla,

Birbrius,
" but i killed ten minutes filling it out and had to think a little."
Well that's 10 minutes you'll never get back..:waving:

How do you stop the homeowner or businessman from hiring a independent.
A union can not form a monopoly.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;436820 said:


> bla bla bla,
> 
> Birbrius,
> " but i killed ten minutes filling it out and had to think a little."
> ...


Methinks someone has spent too much time shoveling and not charging customers for plow stakes.   

LMAO


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

seem to forgot what the thread was about.doubt youll ever see any new unions pop up anyhow. unions are at a low now. but i think what this thread is about is the big snow guys and thats all they do. they go out and sell low and over service to make up for low balling. i have heard of them even double billing up to six months later. until us little guys get our stuff together they will survive and we will keep subbing for them. just my two cents.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

bribrius;436807 said:


> not my gig but i'll give it a shot just for kicks.QUOTE]
> 
> First real anwsers given, Bravo.
> Now all you have to do is convince your exsisting customer to pay more then they are paying now for the same service so there's the money to cover the "union's" share.


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

i say we just unplow jimmy hoffa and send him to organize our union. and buy him some plow stakes to sell too.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Thanks kcplowmata...and basher?*

I'm not sure you read me right on the last post, basher. I do not intend to be a middleman, and this would not be a "for profit" endeavor. My middleman comment goes to the fact that if members are running their own newer equipment, then free enterprise will take it from there. There will not be room for a middleman (our competition) mark-up, but prices should naturally land above low-ball bids since you are having supporting new equipment.

Your link to MSICA is irrelevant, since a group of contractors getting together to bargain with a single government entity is an entirely different situation.

Other threads you mentioned focused on price-fixing and forming a management company neither of which were the intention of my original post.

So again, forget about the union talk, management company talk, etc... and evaluate this proposal:

Organize to promote the little guy, having qualifications that would filter out contract pimps and lowballers. Provide a central database of members, and company bios -years in biz, equipment, other services, etc... Collect a membership fee to specifically target property management companies with advertising. Provide members with literature to use in THEIR sales efforts. Provide 100%bid distribution when contacted by national retailers -then let the member submit a bid directly.

This is a cooperative grassroots type of effort. In a world wahere bigger co's are having to combat the "walmart" image, some companies may even see participating as good PR. I'm not sure what legal description the entity would take on, but not-for-profit is key. I think a modest salary for anyone doing serious legwork would be proper. SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL PLOW OWNER/OPERATOR!!


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

wait a min. ,i do the big box stores and will continue to do the big box stores.why? because we are good and we have the equiptment .if i am going to go ask them for more money ,guess what ,we did and it went in my pocket.,that union or management idea is rediculous,you have so many companies come and go ,you could never keep it straight.the bottom line is the dollar and the customer,they want their customer in that store so it will cost them.plow services here either make or break it fast and if you make it long enough you get the big stuff without trying.it is your reputation that grows your business.answer to the question from me, NO YOUR NOT GETTING ANY $. unions dont protect anyone but a lazy person......
also what union do you use-teamster,wait, but what if you have to get out and shovel?( then you switch to labor union,)then i guess you want a chemical specialist for the deicing products right.....


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

big acres;437013 said:


> I'm not sure you read me right on the last post, basher. I do not intend to be a middleman, and this would not be a "for profit" endeavor. My middleman comment goes to the fact that if members are running their own newer equipment, then free enterprise will take it from there. There will not be room for a middleman (our competition) mark-up, but prices should naturally land above low-ball bids since you are having supporting new equipment.
> 
> Your link to MSICA is irrelevant, since a group of contractors getting together to bargain with a single government entity is an entirely different situation.
> 
> ...


You have presented new, fresh, wonderful ideas. I particularly support the late model equipment issues. Not only should you require late model trucks but also complementary model plows. I think requiring all equipment to be no older then 4 years would be appropriate. All that shiny new equipment will be the deciding factor in the awarding of many bids i'm sure.

I want to thank you for enlightening us on this subject, sometimes us old dogs are slow to learn new tricks.

I apologize for the inappropriate links. I thought we were discussing organizing snowplowers to help standardize rates, combat increasing pressure from the national companies and make it more difficult for the uninsured, unlicensed, and unequipped competitor.

Good luck with your start up. I will look forward to hearing more about the organization in the trade magazines as you develop it.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

basher;437089 said:


> You have presented new, fresh, wonderful ideas. I particularly support the late model equipment issues. Not only should you require late model trucks but also complementary model plows. I think requiring all equipment to be no older then 4 years would be appropriate. All that shiny new equipment will be the deciding factor in the awarding of many bids i'm sure.
> 
> I want to thank you for enlightening us on this subject, sometimes us old dogs are slow to learn new tricks.
> 
> ...


guess i would never get in because i wouldnt buy new equipment. at least not ALL new equipment. hurts the bottom line and just supports the equipment dealers. How do i become a "contract pimp"? That sounds fairly easy and profitable.  As the prices get raised from the new organization the profit margin in being a contract pimp would increase too right?


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

guess i wouldnt get in either. i like old trucks and im not lazy like union workers. lmao union protect lazy workers ... union protect americans rights on the job and set pay. leave it up to coporate america and see where we all get. and no i dont think snow plowers should have a union it would be a mess. hell wed always be on strike and eatin crow i mean snow.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Basher*

Thanks for the comments. Somewhere in the thread someone got the idea that I was actually doing this for sure. It was only to get a feel of what longtime industry pros, like you, think the industry is lacking. I am definetly thinking about the next level, which would be sharing a proposed platform with a few select guys on here to tweak it a bit. Time is a luxury I wish I had more of though -so we'll see.

Also, I like your idea on the plow equipment. It would be cool to have some productivty scales to sell your equipment/rates with. We just picked up a new western wide-out and can't wait to try it.

Bribrius -Yes, I suppose the rising tide theory might come into play, but the middleman (contract pimp) still has to add his 10-20%, right? If members are charging, and getting top/good rates, then we have set the cap and the middleman cannot bill much higher and has to find subs to work for that much less than us.

It is an education process. If you explain the fact that: A) Big Retailer requests bids from Big Maintenance Co's. B) Big Retailer excepts the lowest bid C) Big Maintenance Co requests bids from potential subs D) Big Maint takes lowest bid. Two layers of low bidding usually equals at best inconsistent service and often shoddy service. People get that logic. Convince them to take on a little more admin in-house, with our help in sourcing competent vendors, and take service to a higher level. Just my theory anyhow.

When is it going to finally snow? I just had 3 properties call for bids on Wednesday!


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

*sign up now give me your money*

I HAVE A NEW UNION 
anyone with a new plow speakup, you will make the most money ,no matter of what you dont know, and you will give a share of your [email protected]% to me who has nothing to do for you ,and will not find your work,so anyone interested sign up here ....if i dont hire you because your plow is scratched or too old of a salt truck just call your local big box store and ask for their labor/management official and file a grievance.
sorry if you have worked and earned what you have, but we only want brand spanking new stuff to represent our union,you dont have to know what your doing just look good.so anyone with any rust on your plow or truck,guess what your out of luck.sorry this also is for our providers, we will take your truck and scrap it for my union fees. any one who has knowledge of a truck or plow violation feel free to post.we will look into the issue.thanks the management, keep them dues coming, my caddys getting dirty....


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

*members only*

the new roll of stickers came in....


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

speak with my agent. his name is juan hes on the border right now so leave a message


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

big acres;437115 said:


> Thanks for the comments. Somewhere in the thread someone got the idea that I was actually doing this for sure. It was only to get a feel of what longtime industry pros, like you, think the industry is lacking. I am definetly thinking about the next level, which would be sharing a proposed platform with a few select guys on here to tweak it a bit. Time is a luxury I wish I had more of though -so we'll see.
> 
> Also, I like your idea on the plow equipment. It would be cool to have some productivty scales to sell your equipment/rates with. We just picked up a new western wide-out and can't wait to try it.
> 
> ...


so basically you want to join one but aren't sure how to do it. but you want to join a association not a union. And you want someone else to start it so you dont have to deal with it or because you for some reason dont think you could be capable. I only support unions. Any other organization doesnt get the government protection unions are affforded and with a union you will get support from other unions and the afl-cio. I am also pro-union in case no one noticed (depending on which union). Our country has spent lots of time trying to put into place policies to curb capitalism from putting us all in the street and starving. capitalism doesnt work on its own. Never will, never did, unless policy is consistently put into place to protect the general population from it and unions are there to equal the playing field between the employer and employee. Unions are for the working man and look out for his family and attempt to hold the middle class from poverty. Capitalism looks to achieve efficiency through competition and higher margins for those already at the top while increasing the seperation between the poor and the wealthy. Just how i see it. Neither side is wrong its all about balance. In fact both sides need eachother and government intervention with responsible policy or neither can be sustained or sustain a economy. Everyone that says unions are dying out might want to take a look around at the population in our country and our economy since it is having a effect on it. The scales aren't balanced right now. Good luck with your endeavor if you so choose to try to push forward with it. You are basically trying to do the same things unions have tried to do and balance the scales while offering protection from capitalism. I think there are already too many worthless associations in the world but thats just me it may work, never know.. just my opinion.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

cincy snowdog;437126 said:


> I HAVE A NEW UNION
> anyone with a new plow speakup, you will make the most money ,no matter of what you dont know, and you will give a share of your [email protected]% to me who has nothing to do for you ,and will not find your work,so anyone interested sign up here ....if i dont hire you because your plow is scratched or too old of a salt truck just call your local big box store and ask for their labor/management official and file a grievance.
> sorry if you have worked and earned what you have, but we only want brand spanking new stuff to represent our union,you dont have to know what your doing just look good.so anyone with any rust on your plow or truck,guess what your out of luck.sorry this also is for our providers, we will take your truck and scrap it for my union fees. any one who has knowledge of a truck or plow violation feel free to post.we will look into the issue.thanks the management, keep them dues coming, my caddys getting dirty....


i think i would find that funny if it wasn't for the fact that so many families in the world rely on unions to make sure they have enough food on their table. If you want to insult a group of people, im sure you could find one that doesnt go to work everyday and work even harder than you do.


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

as far as hard work ,it dont scare me.you just want to spend your money foolish,hell i will take it...i'll send you a sticker too bribius.payup


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Old trucks and unions...*

For you guys who keep taking a position for or against unions, read the entire thread for crying out loud. This is not about a union -period. Not about a percentage of your profit either, maybe a flat annual or monthly fee at most.

For you guys in old rigs -God bless you, for this may seem harsh but someone has to buy our trucks when they start to have problems. You may be the best mechanic in the world, but your equipment is your image too. If you have stuff paid off and long-term contracts, good for you. That is why I suggested an "average" age -to allow for a few older gems in the fleet. Personally, we run 20 pieces and the oldest is six years. I include a picture of the fleet with our bids so they don't have to wonder what kind of pile might show up on their lot -and it sells! Sorry, but this is just one school of thought.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

big acres;437147 said:


> For you guys who keep taking a position for or against unions, read the entire thread for crying out loud. This is not about a union -period. Not about a percentage of your profit either, maybe a flat annual or monthly fee at most.
> 
> For you guys in old rigs -God bless you, for this may seem harsh but someone has to buy our trucks when they start to have problems. You may be the best mechanic in the world, but your equipment is your image too. If you have stuff paid off and long-term contracts, good for you. That is why I suggested an "average" age -to allow for a few older gems in the fleet. Personally, we run 20 pieces and the oldest is six years. I include a picture of the fleet with our bids so they don't have to wonder what kind of pile might show up on their lot -and it sells! Sorry, but this is just one school of thought.


well i guess that leaves me out. guess i have to low ball you and run junk trucks and put you out of business instead because i dont care how pretty my equipment looks.

so cincy. how much per sticker? i want one for my rusty snowblower and scratched up shovel too. And can we have a once a year together and drink beer or something?


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Junk trunks?*

Ouch -the cycle continues. Do you think the prospective client cares about the age or condition of your equipment? Maybe not, but it sells regardless. There is enough work out there for a million small outfits with new and old trucks alike, if big maintenance and franchises don't keep undercutting everyone. Bribrius, do you really park your truck with the blade in the air like in your pic?


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

big acres;437157 said:


> There is enough work out there for a million small outfits with new and old trucks alike, if big maintenance and franchises don't keep undercutting everyone.


How many contracts did you lose to a national management firm?



big acres;437157 said:


> Personally, we run 20 pieces and the oldest is six years.


6 YEARS OLD, that sucker's out of warranty!!! you have to sell that puppy or out of the association you go. 



big acres;437157 said:


> I am definetly thinking about the next level, which would be sharing a proposed platform with a few select guys on here to tweak it a bit.


PICK ME:waving: PICK ME:waving: :waving::waving: ROFLMAO


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

*did you lose your acre?*



basher;437174 said:


> How many contracts did you lose to a national management firm?
> oh boy that hurts hahahahahahahahahahaha did i mention thats funny hahahahahahaha
> 
> 6 YEARS OLD, that sucker's out of warranty!!! you have to sell that puppy or out of the association you go.
> ...


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

lmao sounds like we all need snow. when its snowing we aint got no time fer this darn site anyhow.


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## customers_snow (Sep 15, 2002)

Perhaps we all need a lesson in economics. The law of supply and demand dictates pricing. When there are more guys with trucks than properties to service, the prices drop. What would happen if nobody worked for any of the national companies? Prices go up and more guys with trucks will be able to compete against them. I would like to think that some guys with trucks on a local level have learned how to compete. Being a part of an accredited association might help. 

I would recommend looking into SIMA if you have not yet done so. SIMA was formed to help contractors of all sizes become better at what they do. It may not be the union or association that you desire but I would challenge you to join and get involved. There are several committees that you can join and become a vital part of SIMA's future. The association is still very young in comparison to other associations. We have a lot of work yet to do in order to make SIMA a household name with property managers. Better name recognition within the ranks of the property managers is something that I will be pushing for over the next several years. The Certified Snow Professional program that is already in place and the Certified Snow Technician program that we are currently working on, certainly add more legitimacy to our organization. Using some of your ideas in the earlier post, what else would you like to see the association do? 

I would like to speak about SIMA. Some people think that SIMA caters too much to the larger companies. I disagree. There have been many classes offered at the Symposium that benefitted smaller companies. There have been many classes offered through our regional training that benefitted smaller companies. We are an association that has large companies and small companies alike. We need to provide opportunities for all of our members. Educational topics are offered throughout the year that cover a wide range of interests. Not every class will appeal to everyone. You do have to choose which classes are important to you. I once had a smaller company. I made an investment in my future 
and will continue to do so. By attending many of the training sessions throughout the years, I have been able to grow my company. Many of these classes were geared toward smaller companies. In addition, the many people that I have met through attending SIMA events have been wonderful. The information that is exchanged through networking is invaluable. 

I think that too many people are looking for a cure-all. Perhaps they would like an association or union to do all the work for them and provide them with unimagined wealth. I can assure you that this will not happen. I have found that hard work, determination, and the willingness to learn will give you a foundation to succeed. The more knowledge you have, the better equipped you will be to succeed. 

I am not intending to be critical of anyone here. But, I truly believe that those people who never take the time to educate themselves, and those people who never spend money to make an investment in their future, have no business complaining about how other people run their businesses, businesses of any size.


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## dutchhook (Oct 28, 2007)

*Snow Removal Cost by area*

After reading through these posts,I wondered about unions/associations and pricing differentials. 
found this 2007/2008 survey on Snow Pricing: Prices are definitely different but I am surprised and a little bit in disbelief at how close the cost is. The survey doesn't seem to say if it's cost for property managers or cost for snow removal operators, but I'm guessing it's the latter.
2007/2008 Base Year Data (On Symbiot website)

Region
Average Cost = 1.00*

Snow & Ice Removal
Pacific/Northwest
.95

Mountain West
1.06

Southwest
1.05

Upper Midwest
.92

Lower Midwest
1.01

Great Lakes
.96

New England
.90

Mid-Atlantic
1.03

Southeast
1.10

Steve Hoogenakker
[email protected]


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

customers_snow;437325 said:


> Perhaps we all need a lesson in economics. The law of supply and demand dictates pricing. When there are more guys with trucks than properties to service, the prices drop. What would happen if nobody worked for any of the national companies? Prices go up and more guys with trucks will be able to compete against them. I would like to think that some guys with trucks on a local level have learned how to compete. Being a part of an accredited association might help.
> 
> I would recommend looking into SIMA if you have not yet done so. SIMA was formed to help contractors of all sizes become better at what they do. It may not be the union or association that you desire but I would challenge you to join and get involved. There are several committees that you can join and become a vital part of SIMA's future. The association is still very young in comparison to other associations. We have a lot of work yet to do in order to make SIMA a household name with property managers. Better name recognition within the ranks of the property managers is something that I will be pushing for over the next several years. The Certified Snow Professional program that is already in place and the Certified Snow Technician program that we are currently working on, certainly add more legitimacy to our organization. Using some of your ideas in the earlier post, what else would you like to see the association do?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pep talk.
so how exactly are you or sima accredited? Many types of "fake" accreditations and many of them are worthless. does the accreditation mean anything? is certified suppose to mean anything to anyone but a sima member? Since you feel so inclined to give lessons in economics, are you a professor in economics? Have a degree in it at a bachelors or associate level? Taken a economics course? I never heard of sima until i found this site. I'm sure many others haven't either. Perhaps you could inform us further.
Do you represent sima on some level or are you just a member?


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

customers_snow;437325 said:


> I would recommend looking into SIMA if you have not yet done so. SIMA was formed to help contractors of all sizes become better at what they do. .


Give me a break. It was started to generate income for the few involved. Is SIMA a Non Profit organization?

Most of the SIMA board members are some of the same national contractors these guys are speaking of.


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

bribrius;437340 said:


> Thanks for the pep talk.
> so how exactly are you or sima accredited? Many types of "fake" accreditations and many of them are worthless. does the accreditation mean anything? is certified suppose to mean anything to anyone but a sima member? Since you feel so inclined to give lessons in economics, are you a professor in economics? Have a degree in it at a bachelors or associate level? Taken a economics course? I never heard of sima until i found this site. I'm sure many others haven't either. Perhaps you could inform us further.
> Do you represent sima on some level or are you just a member?


He sounds like a salesman. One of those SIMA Board national guys thats never even operated a plow, and doesn't own a snow shovel.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Ok, I want to have some input here. I am not a current member of SIMA, have been in the past and still refer some to SIMA on occasion. Yes, it is a nonprofit organization dedicated to similar principles as being advanced in this thread. Before dismissing SIMA, I'd suggest getting to know more about it; you might find that it is really similar to what is being discussed here. You might also find out some of the problems you'll face in forming the Association being advocated.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Snowpower;437347 said:


> Give me a break. It was started to generate income for the few involved. Is SIMA a Non Profit organization?
> 
> Yes, it is.
> 
> Most of the SIMA board members are some of the same national contractors these guys are speaking of.


Not completely true, but not false either, can't and won't deny it.



Snowpower;437351 said:


> He sounds like a salesman. One of those SIMA Board national guys thats never even operated a plow, and doesn't own a snow shovel.


This from a guy who has been banned twice from PS now. And as far as I have seen, has yet to give much if any worthwhile advice. 


bribrius;437340 said:


> Thanks for the pep talk.
> so how exactly are you or sima accredited? Many types of "fake" accreditations and many of them are worthless. does the accreditation mean anything? is certified suppose to mean anything to anyone but a sima member? Since you feel so inclined to give lessons in economics, are you a professor in economics? Have a degree in it at a bachelors or associate level? Taken a economics course? I never heard of sima until i found this site. I'm sure many others haven't either. Perhaps you could inform us further.
> Do you represent sima on some level or are you just a member?


Bri, I agree with the too many accreditations and that is one of my main problems with the CSP and SIMA overall, even though I am still a member. There is a person who is a CSP and still a member of SIMA that blew the Code of Ethics that SIMA members are supposed to abide by right out of the water, and not a thing was done about him. Doesn't lend much credibility to him or the association IMO. By coincidence, he was one of the founding members as well/

As for the economics, and being a professor, since when do you need a degree, be a professor or anything to be knowledgeable about a subject. If that's the case, do you have a degree in plowing? Because if not, you shouldn't be on this site. None of us should be. Don't like his answers just because their right so you attack the person? Why not argue facts? Because you can't.

As for the rest, I'll let Mike speak for himself, he's quite capable, far more than you are.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;437382 said:


> Not completely true, but not false either, can't and won't deny it.
> 
> This from a guy who has been banned twice from PS now. And as far as I have seen, has yet to give much if any worthwhile advice.
> 
> ...


\\as always, good to see you Mark.


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## customers_snow (Sep 15, 2002)

I will try to refrain from making this personal as so many others have on this site. However, some people have shown a bit of igorance and arrogance. For those of you who don't know, ignorance does not mean stupid. It just means that you didn't know the facts before making your thoughts known on this forum. I don't profess to know everything but I do know quite a bit.

SIMA is a growing organization having just begun in 1996. Its leadership is constantly evolving as the Board of Directors are term limited to (2) three year terms. New leaders come and go. As with any organization, some are good and some are bad. Being new to the Board of Directors as of June this year, I feel very confident that we have a great bunch of people leading the association at this time. The staff is all new with the exception of Brian. The new staff is very energetic and the new executive director has experience with other associations. I am looking for better things ahead.

I said earlier that we have much work to do. With the exception of the staff, SIMA is an all volunteer organization. Many people have spent a lot of time, energy, and their own money to help make SIMA what it is today. It is a commitment that I take seriously and I know my colleagues do as well. 

I would like to invite all of the skeptics out there to call me. If after a discussion with me about SIMA and all that it has to offer, you don't feel that it would be beneficial to you, don't join. It is not for everybody. But, you may just feel that an association that provides the education and support which allows you to run your business better and more profitably is worth the investment.

Send me a PM and I will gladly call you.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

bribrius,
You are one, if the not the last person to give a lesion or any advice on economics.
Period..

All summer you posted about getting almost every drive you bid on.
you told us you had so much business you hired a sub.

Yet you could not grasp the concept of insurance?

Then you told me that you let the sub go and that you quit all of your accounts but the friends and faimaly plain. 

Did you call all of your customers and tell them you quit?

Douhh!!!

You didn't??

lol that's because they never existed..


Bribrius

"max i could forcast running two trucks was a net of 4 -5k.. even that was thinking positive. thats why i cancelled the entire thing. i was willing to do it for that money. im also not willing to take on the bigger headache and responsibility for 10k and it would take me from other obligations. think ill just take it easy and have a little fun.'



roflmao..

"Just take it easy and have some fun":waving:


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Symbiot?*

I have not read every thread on "the SIMA member who went rogue" or whatever, but I keep reading references to this. Is this a reference to Symbiot? Tell me about the guy who violated the code of ethics with no reaction from SIMA. Can someone hit me with a link to a single thread that summarizes this (these) issue accurately, or explain it for those of us who are new to this site. It sounds like good reading. Thanks


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

Here's my thoughts. 

I used to sub from the large company(s) in this area when I first started.

I realized I was making about $40 / hour less than going on my own, plus waiting 60-120 days to get my money.

It didn't take long to realize there's no money to be made this way, that I may as well stay home.

I went on my own, keeping the sub work until I had enough of my own work.

Now I added a 3rd truck, and I'm back to subbing some accounts to fill that route. As I fill it up, I'll sub less work, but while it's running, might as well have a full route, even if it's not at as much profit as my own accounts.

If ALL of the accounts were to be bid out to 16 national companies, it wouldn't take long for that to crash, because those 16 national companies could never find enough subs to do the work. Anyone here, or most that you know that are working for themselves, would realize they're better off staying home for anything less than $60 / hour, and that's sub work. 

If I were to run less than $100 / hour, personally I'd stay home as well.


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;437382
This from a guy who has been banned twice from PS now. And as far as I have seen said:


> Im sorry but you have me confused with someone else, Mark.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

My issue is not with the formation of these types of organizations but with the advocates of rebuilding the wheel. 

SIMA has been the best effort at this yet. Sima offers a professional approach to the business, their programs are a definite asset to the industry. They created the first snow plow training videos and were foresighted enough to produce a Spanish version. The real issue for SIMA is the lack of recognition. If it were as easy as people seem to believe SIMA would be as well known as NFL or NASCAR, instead of known mostly to those who also recognize symbiot, US maintenance, and Douglas Dynamics. 

That's the rub, SIMAs name recognition value in sales is limited, their greatest value is as a training and networking entity. Many plow guys have never heard of SIMA,. how many people outside the service provider side of the industry are aware of their existence.


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

basher;437683 said:


> My issue is not with the formation of these types of organizations but with the advocates of rebuilding the wheel.
> 
> SIMA has been the best effort at this yet. Sima offers a professional approach to the business, their programs are a definite asset to the industry. They created the first snow plow training videos and were foresighted enough to produce a Spanish version. The real issue for SIMA is the lack of recognition. If it were as easy as people seem to believe SIMA would be as well known as NFL or NASCAR, instead of known mostly to those who also recognize symbiot, US maintenance, and Douglas Dynamics.
> 
> That's the rub, SIMAs name recognition value in sales is limited, their greatest value is as a training and networking entity. Many plow guys have never heard of SIMA,. how many people outside the service provider side of the industry are aware of their existence.


Very few other than the National Company Property Managers. It's like the lawn care associations. I've been doing it for a long time and no one cares if you were a member of one of the state lawn care associations. Couldn't care less.

They want a good price and good service and thats it.

How many of you care that property managers you deal with are on some property management association where they have training videos, cool stickers and a neato kean magazine with forty out of fifty pages of advertising.

No more than someone I approach cares if I am a member of a snow club.

Is having an association a decent idea? Is the premise or theory sound? Sure. But I cant get past the feeling that this organization was created for the sole benefit of the board members as a networking tool, and a way to earn a small stipen.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Close, but it's been speculated that SIMA was created for a reason even more self-serving than that. However, in spite of it's beginnings, SIMA has developed into a good networking and training tool.


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## Snowpower (Sep 2, 2007)

Mick;437696 said:


> Close, but it's been speculated that SIMA was created for a reason even more self-serving than that. However, in spite of it's beginnings, SIMA has developed into a good networking and training tool.


Ya know Mick. I agree to a large extent and have seen the videos and know at least one SIMA board member personally. I liike the idea of lending credibility to the industry.

It's just that in this day and age no one else cares that much. Not enough for me to shell out 300 a year or whatever the cost is now. Most managers and real estate people are well aware of having to join these organizations. They all have them too. And they all realize their limitations, and usefulness.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Snowpower;437710 said:


> ...It's just that in this day and age no one else cares that much. Not enough for me to shell out 300 a year or whatever the cost is now....


And with that I agree. I put my membership in my ads and nobody around here cared, either. I did learn a lot and got a lot of help from SIMA members when I started. I'd say it saved me a lot in mistakes I avoided. But, like everything else, I had to balance what I was gaining after a couple years with the cost.


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## dutchhook (Oct 28, 2007)

*SIMA not a sales tool*

I belong to many associations, property management, association management, landscape, etc... No Association membership will bring in ANY sales on it's own. Customers don't care, period. But, I can learn something from anyone involved in the snow industry. If SIMA helps me find information and connections to run a better business, it's worth it. I mean what's $275, a couple hours plowing? a ton and a half of salt??
With all memberships, you only get out what you put in, and "putting in" is usually time and effort, not money, and "getting out" is usually ideas and goodwill, not money.

BTW, here is SIMA's Code of Ethics:

SIMA Code of Ethics

This Code is established to promote the highest professional standards of service and conduct of the Snow & Ice Management Association (SIMA). By maintaining these principles, our members will be recognized as professionals by customers, vendors and other industry professionals. Through high regard for the code, membership in this association will be deemed a significant indicator of individuals' responsibility, character and professionalism.

As a member of the Snow & Ice Management Association, I accept and fully agree to abide by this Code and pledge myself to:

Practice honesty and integrity, by adhering to the highest standards of business practices in our industry; 
Utilize every practical opportunity to expand my professional knowledge of myself and that of my employees through education and training, thereby improving myself and my profession; 
Observe all state and federal laws and retain all appropriate insurance; 
Maintain the highest level of personal conduct and act in a manner such that I would be prepared to defend myself publicly; 
Recognize that I and my company supply an emergency service and take every precaution to operate in a manner that will protect the safety of my employees, customers and the public in general; 
Attract to the profession those who possess a high degree of integrity, honesty, courtesy and competence; 
Recognize and observe the highest standards of integrity in my relationships with fellow snow contractors and others associated with this profession and industry; 
Express professional opinions on technical subjects publicly only when that opinion is founded upon adequate knowledge of facts and competence in the subject manner; 
Uphold this Code of Ethics in all professional activity and use the SIMA name only for purposes that are authorized and fairly represent the organization and its professional standards;


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

dutchhook;437742 said:


> I belong to many associations, property management, association management, landscape, etc... No Association membership will bring in ANY sales on it's own. Customers don't care, period. But, I can learn something from anyone involved in the snow industry. If SIMA helps me find information and connections to run a better business, it's worth it. I mean what's $275, a couple hours plowing? a ton and a half of salt??
> With all memberships, you only get out what you put in, and "putting in" is usually time and effort, not money, and "getting out" is usually ideas and goodwill, not money.
> 
> BTW, here is SIMA's Code of Ethics:
> ...


SO if i comply with at least four or five of them i get accepted as a member right?


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## dutchhook (Oct 28, 2007)

B, 
lol, Point taken, I think!
I suppose anyone could be a dishonest SOB and pay the $300 and they'd take the money!
I don't really care about the code of ethics.The Associations can't mandate honesty. 
Everyone's comments made me curious about what SIMA stood for, so I researched it. 

I CAN say, as a practical matter that on their website, there are 3 members in the Twin Cities. Nobody has had more run-ins over 20 years with 2 of the 3 members than me, but I respect them, their business ability and their professionalism. The 3rd member I've never heard of,
Hey, if I had run-ins with good competitors, maybe I'M the SOB in the snow removal industry?!? Better kick me out of PS.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Snowpower;437710 said:


> I liike the idea of lending credibility to the industry.
> 
> As should we all
> 
> ...


My insurance man has so many acronyms after his name he's footnoted them

Money spent has to have return value and since SIMA won't put any money in your pocket that wouldn't have ended up there any way they are a personal decision not a business one. Pure dollars and cents balance sheets won't track the return if any from membership in these type org. They surely won't have any effect on the lowballers because they won't join.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Dutchook*

I too just checked out SIMA recently and noticed there were 21 members in and around the Twin Cities, not just 3. I recognized most of the names -mostly the medium and larger local players.

I agree with you that the code of ethics is the same as alomost any other organization, as only a couple even specify this industry. I see that it does not cater to any specific size company either, which I personally believe is missing in the industry. I think it is a worthwhile organization for training, education, and networking -but not much more.


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## hickslawns (Dec 18, 2004)

I cannot believe I read every post. I really want to chime in and follow the examples of my fellow plowsite members by beating dead horses. lol However, I think they have all been beat to a pulp. 

Whatever it is worth, here is my 2cents:
Unions-bri I wish you luck in your search for capitalism. There was a time and place for unions, but it already ran its course. 
Associations-I do not believe there will be a time when a snow plow association will be able to pull the numbers of members to amount to much. The American Motorcycle Association, the NRA. . . the list goes on as to associations which help causes and protect people's rights. However, there are a lot more people that own guns and motorcycles than snowplows. Therefore, the draw for membership will not reach a level which will enable it to become a valuable tool for leverage.
National chains-They suck. I think we are all agreed on this (at least 90% or so agreed and probably 99% for anyone in business more than 5 years). They are the problem. 

What to do? Band together to boycott national maintenance companies? Sounds good, but there is always the lowballer. 

What am I doing? 1)Continuing to read these same posts year after year and smiling to myself. 2)Continually reinventing my company so I can avoid being the union worker (again) struggling to stay in the middle class just above the poverty line. 3)Learning from my mistakes and other people's mistakes and not repeating them. 4)Becoming more self-sufficient every year in the form of building my own liquid de-icers, box plows for the loader, accumulating additional equipment in the form of tools (welders, shop tools, etc) and equipment in the form of trucks/plows/loaders. 5)Most importantly I am conservative and fiscally minded. I am honest and I am very integrity oriented. I have the intestinal fortitude to work hours on end all year and every year to ensure my own success without the necessity to lean on the crutch of an association, the government, or another employer besides myself. Basically these are the same principles most people on here follow as well. My point is this: I live right, treat people right, and over-deliver what I sell to my customers knowing I will never have to worry about going hungry. By taking on this attitude and life philosophy, I will let the national chains run their course and I will still be plucking away doing the same thing until I choose not to. 

Good luck to all trying to figure out how to do this without the effort. My nose will be to the grindstone, and I will be climbing my mountains one step at a time like a stubborn ox.


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## dutchhook (Oct 28, 2007)

Yep, there are 21 members. Looks like the 3 I looked at earlier were only CSP's


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## LwnmwrMan22 (Jan 20, 2005)

FWIW, Target is a member of SIMA in the Twin Cities, MN. How are you going to get away from the National chains if they become a member of your own 'association'??


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I was thinking about this the other night and the 4 year old requirement for equipment and how ignorant this would be for a requirement. 

My company has been in business for 75 years, yet I own a '95 Jeep, a '98 F800, '98 JCB loader, '00 F350, '00 F750, '02 F350 and F450. So you're saying that I would have to replace all of this just to fit in to your association to show that I am a viable company? You're kidding, right? Whose got credibility and reliability?

I can name more companies that have folded or gone bankrupt because they have all brand new equipment than ones with older equipment. Once you get into heavy trucks and equipment, do you have any idea how long this stuff lasts? Not to mention the initial investment? I'm willing to bet that when I set up my 750 that it cost more than most guys on this board have invested in their entire business. No slam, just a fact. What about pushers? They last forever, you have to buy new just to say I have new stuff? 

New equipment doesn't mean squat, it only means that someone can get the financing to afford new stuff. Not to say some don't pay cash, but I bet once again that most don't. Reliability and credibility is far from guaranteed just because you have new equipment. I have 2 Ford 550's that lost transmissions, one had 500 miles on it, the other was a year old. Both were down for 2 weeks because Ford had screwed it up so bad. The year old one lost it again a year later, same crap from Ford, so I paid to have it rebuilt with decent parts and it made a year and a half with that one. 

You've got a long way to go reinventing the wheel, good luck.


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## dutchhook (Oct 28, 2007)

There is no viable method to use age of equipment for membership.

Using age and experience of operator would be a better gauge of reliability, and I wouldn't use that either.

If I had a choice of a truck less than 4 years with a new operator or a 10 yr old truck with an operator with 4 years plowing experience, no brainer, I think the 10 yr old truck might actually be in better shape at the end of the season with an experienced plower than the fried tranny with the newbie!!!

Steve

Steve Hoogenakker
[email protected]


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Mark, congrats on reply #100!*

This is like the game where you whisper a message down the line of people and see how twisted it got at the end. This is all just food for thought to me, but my original suggestion was an AVERAGE age of SIX years, not a flat four year limit.

The goal in my thread was to see if anyone had ideas to filter out "big maintenance" and lowballers while specifically promoting above average professional contractors who perform their OWN work. This is something that SIMA does not do, and I think it is something missing in the industry, don't you? I also kind of agree with what Dutchhook just posted too, experience should weigh in heavily.

Maybe the idea only applies to smaller equipment and yes new trucks fail too. I guess there are different business philosophies. I see very successful people run the cheapest stuff they can get away with and still remain successful, but they will never set foot on alot of top-paying properties because of IMAGE. My personal opinion is that you should be aspiring to have an increasingly newer fleet, because it is more reliable -period. Why is it that most of the larger successful companies in my area run newer fleets? Whether it is excavators, limousines, couriers, distribution, or whatever???? If you have a better idea to accomplish the objectives, then let's hear it man!


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## customers_snow (Sep 15, 2002)

Perhaps instead of excluding certain groups or sizes of company, we simply categorize them so that the property manager can decide what size, type, and capability of company to use. I think that we continue to promote the Certification programs as a way of adding more legitimacy to the organization and the industry as a whole.

I think that SIMA could be the medium to promote each and every one of us. It is not currently set up to do so. As I said in an earlier post, I will be working toward this as a goal of mine over the next several years. However, a program to market and advertise our industry to any great degree would take a serious investment of cash from everyone involved. How much would any of you be willing to give to the cause? How much do any of you spend on marketing your own companies? Most of the people on this forum have no clue what it would cost to have a comprehensive and on-going marketing program. We would need to do some analysis to see if this is even feasible or not. Until, and if we can come up with a plan, the best thing anyone can do at this point is to aggressively promote their own companies and their own abilities. No association will sell your business like you can anyway. 

It was said by someone in an earlier post that you get out of SIMA what you put into it (or any association for that matter). This is very true. I keep promoting SIMA because it has helped me a great deal over the years. I have seen the power of education through the classes offered and the networking with other professionals in the industry. This does have a cost. You have the cost of the class itself, any travel, parking, food, and perhaps money lost due to having to attend a class instead of working your business. Truly though, how do you expect to learn and get better if you don't make the investment? How many of you that are critical of SIMA have ever attended any of the classes they offer? Did you get anything out of it? If you haven't attended a SIMA training session, what has kept you away? SIMA is truly a bargain for those of us who have used it to its fullest potential.

These are legitimate questions that need to be answered if SIMA is to better understand the programs and services that you would like to see.


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## dutchhook (Oct 28, 2007)

*Mastermind Group*

One possible answer is a MASTERMIND GROUP. We have them in the staffing industry. 5-8 members in different markets on a once a month conference call or webinar.

After some trust is established, (see definition for "in your dreams!") sales literature, employee handbooks, subcontractor agreements, maintenance procedures, financial information, operation manuals are emailed so the members have it before the call starts.Then it's openly discussed and argued, whatever the problems or opportunities of the season are. (except for pricing -see definition for "attorney general")

The intentions for an association are good and measurement of some kind is needed. I just don't think it can be done by association.

I've been in different businesses in different industries, and except for ALCA, (now PLANET), it's "caveat emptor" for the retail client. That's the only carrot to reward or hammer punish the bad contractor. That's the reality, it will always tend to drag on the industry.

The one difference I saw at ALCA was a group of 40 or so contractors that really knew the business and each other. Not only were they great examples to follow, but everyone wanted to be good because there was an INDUSTRY IDENTITY, and everyone wanted to be respected.

I don't see a "SNOW INDUSTRY IDENTITY" yet.


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## dutchhook (Oct 28, 2007)

dang, I'm long winded.....what an air bag!


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*Customer_snow*

You are dead on. We have been pushing for 15 years, and just discovered SIMA. I think a member directory by category might be a solution to fill the gap that I am speaking to. It would also help grow the organization and help promte the "Industry Identity" that Dutchhook spoke of.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

dutchhook;439916 said:


> One possible answer is a MASTERMIND GROUP. We have them in the staffing industry. 5-8 members in different markets on a once a month conference call or webinar.
> 
> After some trust is established, (see definition for "in your dreams!") sales literature, employee handbooks, subcontractor agreements, maintenance procedures, financial information, operation manuals are emailed so the members have it before the call starts.Then it's openly discussed and argued, whatever the problems or opportunities of the season are. (except for pricing -see definition for "attorney general")
> 
> ...


snow industry identity? thats because so many different people come in and out of snow removal. it has a high turnover rate. also its a "side job" for most individual people. even most companies involved in it consider it winter work for the slow season. how can a side job have a identity?
I know there are people that are "snow removal professionals." and i respect them for both their knowledge and skills. The majority though i think are in it to fill time and make winter cash. I dont see you ever finding a identity. or for that matter a association or organization becoming to successful in all truthfulness. Im willing to guess its also very dependent on the economy. People are paying more for oil and gas this year. money has to come from somewhere. the whole thing is a tough one. Anyone can put a plow on a truck and push snow. Anyone can lay salt or sand. Any teenager can shovel. Hard to get around that unless your talking strictly large commercial accounts that require the snow be removed from the premises. I think there are different degrees of skill required. Problem is all it takes a small degree of skill or knowledge to do the majority of jobs. thats obvious by the amount of people that plowed before they were even old enough to legally drive a vehicle. Or me out shoveling and laying salt when i was nine.
dunno. just my take on it. If your looking for identity look at all the big removal jobs and big accounts. Doesnt mean you find the right people but at least they will claim they have a identity. You can talk about it in your mastermind group.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*High turnover rate, Bribrius?*

The reason people come and go is that they do not understand the true costs of business. They are the side-job guys you speak of. I strongly disagree that "all it takes a small degree of skill or knowledge to do the majority of jobs". That may be be true, but it takes them 2-3 times as long to do it. I also disagree that "even most companies involved in it consider it winter work for the slow season." We make it very profitable. The back to back storms we had here last March kept several crews working 2-3 shifts for almost 3 weeks straight.

I applaud anyone who is trying to earn a decent second income, and many like you have been doing it a long time and have a great level of experience. The majority however, come and go as you stated. They take the low rates as subs and make money for someone else aor lowball to get work and do not realize that they are subsidizing their failing business with wages from their day job.

What about Mike McCaans post about SIMA adding a member directory by category -a great idea. Would you prefer property managers find you to be listed under "side-gig", or "weekend warrior". It may not be "nice" want to exclude someone from an organization, but if you are not 100% ready to go at any moment you are not a "professional" by definition, right?

We service a prominent retail chain locally. We got a call from a manager with 8 inches of snow in her lot who said she called her vendor to ask when he would be arriving and he said "When I get out of school, duh!". Out of vacation time, big game is on, family bvacation with no back-up. These guys are minor league and have no place in a "professional" association. Just my strong opinion.


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## bribrius (May 5, 2007)

big acres;440065 said:


> The reason people come and go is that they do not understand the true costs of business. They are the side-job guys you speak of. I strongly disagree that "all it takes a small degree of skill or knowledge to do the majority of jobs". That may be be true, but it takes them 2-3 times as long to do it. I also disagree that "even most companies involved in it consider it winter work for the slow season." We make it very profitable. The back to back storms we had here last March kept several crews working 2-3 shifts for almost 3 weeks straight.
> 
> I applaud anyone who is trying to earn a decent second income, and many like you have been doing it a long time and have a great level of experience. The majority however, come and go as you stated. They take the low rates as subs and make money for someone else aor lowball to get work and do not realize that they are subsidizing their failing business with wages from their day job.
> 
> ...


maybe not. but they still take your contracts. even if they have to wait until they get out of school or the regular job to do it. i think you completley missed my point. or at least a little missed it. what good is a association if the majority of people dont qualify, no one really cares if your a member, your work is stolen by people with little skill who might be in highschool, and they do it cheaper than you because they have other income or live at home with their parents? i guess you disqualifed me. i have other income. I dont live at home with my parents but sometimes i wish i still did. HAHHAHA. 
thats okay. Have you started this association yet? for the length of this thread you could have had the association up and running by now. You could go to work on it and check back in a few weeks and let us know if its going well..
carry on.


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

Mark Oomkes;439821 said:


> I was thinking about this the other night and the 4 year old requirement for equipment and how ignorant this would be for a requirement.
> 
> My company has been in business for 75 years, yet I own a '95 Jeep, a '98 F800, '98 JCB loader, '00 F350, '00 F750, '02 F350 and F450. So you're saying that I would have to replace all of this just to fit in to your association to show that I am a viable company? You're kidding, right? Whose got credibility and reliability?
> 
> ...


 very well said,:salute:i dont think i will fit in the six year plan either,is there an eight year and older association ,i cant see selling four single axles(1993,94,99,88) and buying new @approx.$70,000 each(only generally use two in summer also, other 2 sit inside and rest up ),i will just continue to service my toysrus,sears,walmart, and oh yeh 1.3 millon sq ft mall with all the other big names.we got where we are because of our reputation,now dont take me wrong , no rusty sandford and sons ,i pride in my trucks-"maintenance" is the keyword not age. 
how many people are having trouble with their trans in there new fords........i will just push that new truck over in the corner for ya......as my out of date trucks finish up as many times to come.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;439821 said:


> INew equipment doesn't mean squat, it only means that someone can get the financing to afford new stuff. .


2 years later it's for sale and they're working for Home Depot because they didn't; have enough work, charge enough, understand the business or have the financial responsibility to make the payments.


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## kcplowmata (Sep 15, 2007)

snowing yet?


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

hey Mark i wasnt meaning your trucks ,just the new fords in general. so not directed to ya.:waving:


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## Jbowe (Mar 22, 2006)

*Age of Trucks*

I got a real smile when I read the member writing age limits of truck to belong to some of these companies. I have three plow trucks. 1995 2500 Dodge V10 whith wester V Plow,
1996 Dodge 1500 with 7-6 Boss and a 2004 Dodge 1500 Hemi with a Boss 7-6. Now with that said I have only one truck that would be eligible under certain guidlines. I will tell you this. I only use the 2004 as an emergcy back up if one of the other two has a problem. It cannot Plow with either of the older dodges which by the way look as good as the newer one and they run and a better maintained then most people that just have daily drivers. I have pulled out 3 new truck already this season that we all new. One was plowing a large restraunt and had gotted stuck on his snow pile. I hooked him and drug him off then when he found out he had ripped a line and no replacement finished his lot for him. Newer is by no means better. I will put either of mine up against any new truck out there and on the roads we plow here will still be going strong when the new ones are in getting repaired. Sorry about ranting on but newer is not always best and when the guys with new stuff are making payments that come to more then they make my old trucks are banking the money.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

cincy snowdog;440322 said:


> hey Mark i wasnt meaning your trucks ,just the new fords in general. so not directed to ya.:waving:


No you won't push them in the corner, because they both have sticks of dynamite in them so if the POS tranny goes out again there won't be anything left to push--after the blades are off.   (J/K)

Big acres, I may have taken it off a little, but my point still carries, how and who is going to make the rules about what is good or OK. I had a guy plowing for me last year that had 20 years experience, but he was slower than molasses. I've had guys with under a year experience that could blow him away. My brand new truck with 500 miles on it dumps, but the '96 I just sold made it about 8 years without a transmission. You can't even use the years in business as a guideline, maybe I've just been lucky that the business I bought from my dad and he bought from his grandfather is still in operation and it doesn't have anything to do with my ability and the guy that just graduated from HS is the next Donald Trump (or whoever you would like to use as a successful business model).

While I have some issues with the way SIMA handled the whole JAA\SMG thing, it is still the best thing going. If you want more info on that, do a search or PM me and I'll give you all the info I have. Once again, rather than reinventing the wheel, why not join SIMA and try to add your $.02 to change it for the better of the industry.

To answer Mike's question, I have been to numerous Symposiums & regional training seminars and they were well worth it. I would highly recommend them to anyone.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;440388 said:


> rather than reinventing the wheel, why not join SIMA and try to add your $.02 to change it for the better of the industry.
> .


Best comment of the entire thread.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;439821 said:


> I was thinking about this the other night and the 4 year old requirement for equipment and how ignorant this would be for a requirement.
> do you have any idea how long this stuff lasts? New equipment doesn't mean squat,
> You've got a long way to go reinventing the wheel, good luck.


I was thinking the same thing



big acres;439854 said:


> This is like the game where you whisper a message down the line of people and see how twisted it got at the end. it.
> QUOTE]
> 
> That's how a discussion goes.


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*End of thread?*

I think your right about joining SIMA and trying to change or add to it for the better, rather than starting from scratch. How come some of you guys can only seem to bash an idea rather than offer a better one? No answer necessary I just had to get the last word in. LET IT SNOW!


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## big acres (Nov 8, 2007)

*A New Low*

One more last word... I just learned two minutes ago that the national Brickman Group is subbing-out Twin Cities snow work to a large regional outfit who subs it out again! Maybe this is not new to some of you. We noticed this regional had guys with rusty Nissans plowing big box stores last year. Snow removal is becoming a commodity.

The good thing about yet another middleman? For two companies to make a margin, they have to be charging average or better prices -which means we should be able to compete better with our pricing. It also means that the actual qaulity of their work is probably heading downhill too.

When Landcare came to town a couple of years ago, they bought up a third of the market (Just ask Dutchhook). Now they are down to one shop with 4-6 crews if I am not mistaken. If they can't offer a winning price/qaulity service even with Tru-Green/Chem-lawn behind them, then they have their own challenges ahead. Keep it local!


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## tjlands (Sep 29, 2005)

big acres;440577 said:


> When Landcare came to town a couple of years ago, they bought up a third of the market (Just ask Dutchhook). Now they are down to one shop with 4-6 crews if I am not mistaken. If they can't offer a winning price/quality service even with Tru-Green/Chem-lawn behind them, then they have their own challenges ahead. Keep it local!


Tru-Green Landcare is also closing up shop in Ocean County, NJ, Just re-signed a client they "bought" 2 years ago with their low prices and piss poor work. Another appointment for tomorrow with a small condo complex / Landcare ex. Maybe a sign of things to come.


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## xc23 (Jan 29, 2007)

Just my opinion .Because I am fairly new to the biz and trying to grow larger, but running into a lot of low ballers or a depressed economy in my area . Have you guys thought of some of the repercussions of this union thing ,Training, Product standards (what will they be.Who will uphold them) Did any one ever hear of OSHA? Will they tell us how old our trucks, or heavy equipment can be before they need to be retired. I agree some thing needs to be done in the biz. I look for all the info I can get before I make a decision for a bid, and still some times come out unsuccessful?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

xc23;440830 said:


> Just my opinion .Because I am fairly new to the biz and trying to grow larger, but running into a lot of low ballers or a depressed economy in my area . Have you guys thought of some of the repercussions of this union thing ,Training, Product standards (what will they be.Who will uphold them)
> 
> This will just drive up the cost of hiring a "union" plower.
> Making hiring the cheaper independent or lowballer all that much more alluring to the customer.
> ...


.......................................


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## dutchhook (Oct 28, 2007)

*TruGreen, Brickman, no big deal?*

There's a LOT of stuff going on with the nationals right now that isn't public knowledge yet. 
But what I can say for ceratin is that TruGreen, when I ran that, we had well over 100 trucks/skids and over 200 shovelers just in Mpls. They had shrunk to a fraction of that size, but have rebounded locally the last couple of years, but still not nearly what they were. 
I'd like to hear more about the Brickman/Regional plow outfit though!

Steve


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## cincy snowdog (Dec 19, 2005)

brinkman moved into the tri-state here,they bought a huge co. groundsmasters,seen them this summer but not yet for winter.


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

I believe this thread has run it's course...


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