# When to go out?



## Plow Girl 2017

Hello

I am new to this this season. I have 40 contracts for residential snow. I spelled everything out clearly in my contract. The terms are I come if over 2" and everyone is cleared within 24 hours. Service includes driveway , sidewalks and a walkway. Hand shoveling is extra. No plows just a blower. Salt is extra which they all declined.I have some customers complaining that not enough snow is removed. That the property isn't cleared by the time they leave for work. and wanting steps shoveled.

I feel like without salting, a blower won't get down to the pavement, that steps are hand shoveling and that if I have 24 hours some people are not going to be clear first thing in the morning. Am I missing something?

Also how do you handle it if on two separate days there are two snowfalls each at or below 2"? Now they have a total of 4" should I just go or wait for a request?


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## FredG

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> Hello
> 
> I am new to this this season. I have 40 contracts for residential snow. I spelled everything out clearly in my contract. The terms are I come if over 2" and everyone is cleared within 24 hours. Service includes driveway , sidewalks and a walkway. Hand shoveling is extra. No plows just a blower. Salt is extra which they all declined.I have some customers complaining that not enough snow is removed. That the property isn't cleared by the time they leave for work. and wanting steps shoveled.
> 
> I feel like without salting, a blower won't get down to the pavement, that steps are hand shoveling and that if I have 24 hours some people are not going to be clear first thing in the morning. Am I missing something?
> 
> Also how do you handle it if on two separate days there are two snowfalls each at or below 2"? Now they have a total of 4" should I just go or wait for a request?


Are these per trip or seasonal?


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## Plow Girl 2017

Seasonal


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## FredG

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> Hello
> 
> I am new to this this season. I have 40 contracts for residential snow. I spelled everything out clearly in my contract. The terms are I come if over 2" and everyone is cleared within 24 hours. Service includes driveway , sidewalks and a walkway. Hand shoveling is extra. No plows just a blower. Salt is extra which they all declined.I have some customers complaining that not enough snow is removed. That the property isn't cleared by the time they leave for work. and wanting steps shoveled.
> 
> I feel like without salting, a blower won't get down to the pavement, that steps are hand shoveling and that if I have 24 hours some people are not going to be clear first thing in the morning. Am I missing something?
> 
> Also how do you handle it if on two separate days there are two snowfalls each at or below 2"? Now they have a total of 4" should I just go or wait for a request?


I would not wait for any request, Just start your route at 2''. As far as them complaining about hand work I would tell them to refer to contract.
Yes without some deicer you will have hard pack that the blower may not pick up. As far as to different storms still go at 2'' then see what the next snowfall brings, Good luck.


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## 1olddogtwo

In my humble opinion it's how your contract is worded.

Is your contract worded per event or accumulation

6 1in events then No...... It would suck when you do get a 2 inch or more event.

Using that same scenario, you would have maintained the properties at least three times already.


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## JMHConstruction

Hand shoveling is extra? You're blowing the driving, everything is hand work...

Anyway, back to you question. If the snow isn't melted off and there is over 2" on the driveway, I would hit it. If not, it will just keep getting more and more snow, and become more packed down.

When you say "walkway" does that mean to the front door? If so, if I had some steps leading to my door, I would expect that to be done also, unless you told me a head of time specifically that you wouldn't do it.

In the first year in business, you don't want 40 pissed off customers. I get not letting them walk all over you, but maybe explain to them where you're coming from. Maybe you could offer a change order for them to sign with more work performed. Without knowing the exact wording and what was discussed, it's hard to say who's in the wrong here.

Out of 40 you're bound to get at least a few unhappy customers, but there shouldn't very be many.


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## Randall Ave

Where's Grandview when you need him?


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## theplowmeister

Im rely surprised you got 40 people that are willing to wait 24 hours, how are they going to go to work?


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## cjames808

If they are spread out how are you going to get them all? Are you shoveling them yourself too?


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## BUFF

If the driveways are your typical 2car wide and 30ft deep subdivision size and there was less than 4-5" I'd use a 30 or 36"Snow Plow shovel and leave the blower in the back for the pickup. Buy the time you unload, start the blower you can be half way done with the job and get a better scrape.


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## Avalanche 2500

theplowmeister said:


> Im rely surprised you got 40 people that are willing to wait 24 hours, how are they going to go to work?


Maybe Plow girl is a B*ionic Woman ?? 40 driveways is a lot but, it is a Sat. night *


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## Jacobmb

OP,

Love the questions and it reminds me of what I went through in my first year. Learning to deal with client expectations is an important part of your business. I know someowners that turn their phones off during snow events. 

Wen I am signing contracts and similarly talking to irate clients after a storm I always explain to them that I already came to service their driveway when 2" or more snow accumulated. ( I tell them the approx temperature, weather conditions and site condition). I write the time out of each property on my route sheet for this specific reason. There is always a new client or two every storm that wakes up and calls or texts me in a panick - how come my driveway isnt done? I pay good money blah blah blah. My response is always the same. I tell them we came to service their property at (insert time of service) and tell them that we removed more than XXcm of snow at the time. I remind them that if it continues to snow after the service and it accumulates to more then 5cm again I am obligated to remove it again as per the contract (in my case within 12 hrs - as I offer 2 services per 24hr period) 

I use this opportunity to sell them on salting. I explain that some of my clients were serviced the same time but because we put salt down their driveways are still very clean!

I always tell my clients that if they are looking for a driveway that looks like bare asphalt all winter that isnt a service I provide and it isn't realistic. If we shoveled and charged per cm of snow that fell, they wouldnt be able to afford us. We ensure they can get in and out safely during and after a storm, that is what they are paying for. I also let them know If its an emergency and they are ever stuck then don't hesitate to reach out. When we finish all the houses on our route we go right back to the first house and continue down the list a second time until we reach a house that is still clean (and we know everyone done thereafter is likely clean as well).

Dealing with upset clients is an important part of the learning process. Figure out which clients have unrealistic expectations and be sure to charge them more next season or don't take them on again. 

Look into investing into a plow truck when you can as you could service those 40 clients two, three or more times in the same 24hr period.

GL!

J


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## WIPensFan

I don't see this ending well. Contract is worded poorly, time to get done is crazy long. You gotta get 40 drives and walks done in 4-6 hrs or take less customers. They will drop you anyway when you don't show up for 10 hrs after the snow stops...You also have to shovel steps, or they'll drop you. What kind of blower? I'm guessing 2 stage which is fine, but adjust the shoes so the scraper bar is closer to the pavement. You should have two single stagers( cleaner scrape ) and two people with you. another to blow and a shoveler. We use to use 32" blowers to do drives with one person doing everything and do 25 accounts in 4-6 hrs with 1-3" on the ground. at 4-8" the time will be 1.5x longer and 8"+ is a long day and part of a night with the city plows plowing in driveway ends about 3' high. Then people really can't get in or out of their drive...and then they'll drop you! 
Good luck.


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## theplowmeister

Avalanche 2500 said:


> Maybe Plow girl is a B*ionic Woman ?? 40 driveways is a lot but, it is a Sat. night *


This time its a weekend but what about the next storm? a 10 inch storm that finishes on Tuesday at 2m some one wont get plowed till Wednesday afternoon?


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## Randall Ave

What is your plan if you get a storm that dumps say 18 inches in one day? how long to finish? How many employees do you have? You should have two crews out, people will not wait that long. If these lots can be plowed, go get a truck/plow setup.


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## JMHConstruction

I have in my contract 24 hrs. I get to them within 6 or so, but it's there incase something unforseen happens, like a break down or blizzard. It gives me time to either get my **** together or get my "backup" sub there. I'm still liable for anything that happens, if someone slips.

It just gives me a little extra time to still be within my contract. I also explained this to my customers, and they seem to understand. Wouldn't want to base a route around that 24hr time span though, keep it to 6-8.


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## Randall Ave

I would think 6 hrs after the last flake falls, residential should be done.


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## Defcon 5

One thing that irritates a customer more is seeing all their neighbors cleared long before them....

My advice is....Your equipped to handle about 10 to maybe 15 drives in an adequate amount of time...Start small...Get a feel for what your doing and customer expectations...40 drives with a blower and shovel is a recipe for failure and a Heart attack


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## Plow Girl 2017

cjames808 said:


> If they are spread out how are you going to get them all? Are you shoveling them yourself too?


They are within a 4 mile area and 4 subdivisions.


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## Plow Girl 2017

Jacobmb said:


> OP,
> 
> Love the questions and it reminds me of what I went through in my first year. Learning to deal with client expectations is an important part of your business. I know someowners that turn their phones off during snow events.
> 
> Wen I am signing contracts and similarly talking to irate clients after a storm I always explain to them that I already came to service their driveway when 2" or more snow accumulated. ( I tell them the approx temperature, weather conditions and site condition). I write the time out of each property on my route sheet for this specific reason. There is always a new client or two every storm that wakes up and calls or texts me in a panick - how come my driveway isnt done? I pay good money blah blah blah. My response is always the same. I tell them we came to service their property at (insert time of service) and tell them that we removed more than XXcm of snow at the time. I remind them that if it continues to snow after the service and it accumulates to more then 5cm again I am obligated to remove it again as per the contract (in my case within 12 hrs - as I offer 2 services per 24hr period)
> 
> I use this opportunity to sell them on salting. I explain that some of my clients were serviced the same time but because we put salt down their driveways are still very clean!
> 
> I always tell my clients that if they are looking for a driveway that looks like bare asphalt all winter that isnt a service I provide and it isn't realistic. If we shoveled and charged per cm of snow that fell, they wouldnt be able to afford us. We ensure they can get in and out safely during and after a storm, that is what they are paying for. I also let them know If its an emergency and they are ever stuck then don't hesitate to reach out. When we finish all the houses on our route we go right back to the first house and continue down the list a second time until we reach a house that is still clean (and we know everyone done thereafter is likely clean as well).
> 
> Dealing with upset clients is an important part of the learning process. Figure out which clients have unrealistic expectations and be sure to charge them more next season or don't take them on again.
> 
> Look into investing into a plow truck when you can as you could service those 40 clients two, three or more times in the same 24hr period.
> 
> GL!
> 
> J


Thanks for all of the information. These customers where very specific that they didn't want a plow due to damage in the past using them. I don't know if I would make any money coming a second time around. The drives I have are average 120" with 150" of sidewalk and 20" walkways. My route takes 18 hours.


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## Plow Girl 2017

Thanks for all of the advise. I guess I'm stuck for this season. I signed them for 10 plows and have completed 3. I have one person with me using a single stage Toro. I use a two stage Toro powermax 11280 XE. I get what your saying but the customers where specifically looking for someone with no plow because they had lots of damage in the past. I don't see why a person would sign an agreement stating 24 hours if they need 6-8 hours. I have a four wheel drive truck but you can't get in or out of these subs until the city plows clear them. I was very clear that depending on what time the snow falls they could leave and come home to snow. My contract also states it's non-refundable.

I tried to be very honest with people about what I was offering. I feel like the customers are trying to change the terms.


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## WIPensFan

18 hrs?!?! Oh boy.


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## JMHConstruction

Have you though about getting a plow and installing a rubber edge?

That is my suggestion here. That or it's time to invest in more blowers and more people. Get 2-3 crews. 18 hrs is way too long. I would be mad if I was paying for a service and it took until the next day to service me every time.


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## Randall Ave

Are you making enough to hire a helper shoveler? I know your contract says no shoveling included. But it might speed things up for you. And that's hard on the body, you might not feel it now, but you will when you are older.


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## Defcon 5

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> Thanks for all of the advise. I guess I'm stuck for this season. I signed them for 10 plows and have completed 3. I have one person with me using a single stage Toro. I use a two stage Toro powermax 11280 XE. I get what your saying but the customers where specifically looking for someone with no plow
> 
> because they had lots of damage in the past. I don't see why a person would sign an agreement stating 24 hours if they need 6-8 hours. I have a four wheel drive truck but you can't get in or
> 
> out of these subs until the city plows clear them. I was very clear that depending on what time the snow falls they could leave and come
> 
> home to snow. My contract also states it's non-refundable.
> 
> I tried to be very honest with people about
> 
> what I was offering. I feel like the customers are trying to change the terms.


Honesty is good....Maybe you have found a niche market...I know on my personal drive I would rather use a shovel or blower...Cleaner job..I have no clue what your charging for these drives...The question i have is this...Are you making money??....


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## Plow Girl 2017

Defcon 5 said:


> Honesty is good....Maybe you have found a niche market...I know on my personal drive I would rather use a shovel or blower...Cleaner job..I have no clue what your charging for these drives...The question i have is this...Are you making money??....


I charged $350 and $400 for ten plows average size is about 250-300 feet of drive and sidewalk.


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## Randall Ave

What's your location, and average snowfall? I'm in Jersey, here you would be on the low side of price.


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## Arrowbrook99

DEFCON 5 hit the nail. A big key to this and most businesses is showing up. If you bite off more than you can chew bad news travels fast and you’ll ruin your business before you get a chance to start it.


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## Plow Girl 2017

Randall Ave said:


> What's your location, and average snowfall? I'm in Jersey, here you would be on the low side of price.


I'm in the Detroit area, Northville Novi Michigan. We average 12 snowfalls over 2". I know . I have a good lawn service and decided to try this out this year. W


Arrowbrook99 said:


> DEFCON 5 hit the nail. A big key to this and most businesses is showing up. If you bite off more than you can chew bad news travels fast and you'll ruin your business before you get a chance to start it.


everyone was told within 24 hours and didn't seem to mind. Now out of 40 I've had three complaining to the pint of wanting a refund. I just want to get the next seven plows done and then I'm out.


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## Mr.Markus

Bite off a tractor w/inverted blower, according to everyone on here you can do twice that much in a quarter of the time. Sounds like you can sell, you just need to up your production. 60hp with acomfy cab and you're set.... Don't give up that easy.


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## Plow Girl 2017

Mr.Markus said:


> Bite off a tractor w/inverted blower, according to everyone on here you can do twice that much in a quarter of the time. Sounds like you can sell, you just need to up your production. 60hp with acomfy cab and you're set.... Don't give up that easy.


How much does something like that cost? I could get maybe $700 out of my Toro


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## 1olddogtwo

Have you thought about using a wideout or a v?


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## Defcon 5

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I'm in the Detroit area, Northville Novi Michigan. We average 12 snowfalls over 2". I know . I have a good lawn service and decided to try this out this year. W
> everyone was told within 24 hours and didn't seem to mind. Now out of 40 I've had three
> 
> complaining to the pint of wanting a refund. I just want to get the next seven plows done and then I'm out.


I'm in the 5mile and Sheldon area....Nothing but a bunch of complaing crybabys...Service times are essential...Even though you might have told them 24 hours...They didn't hear you...


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## Defcon 5

1olddogtwo said:


> Have you thought about using a wideout or a v?


From what I'm told and read on here from the "Experts"...A "V" with wings is the cats Meow


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## BUFF

Plow Girl, you're best option is either increase your crew size to split up the 40 drives so the route is 5hrs<> or sub out to someone with a tractor / blower set up that's in the area.


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> One thing that irritates a customer more is seeing all their neighbors cleared long before them....
> 
> My advice is....Your equipped to handle about 10 to maybe 15 drives in an adequate amount of time...Start small...Get a feel for what your doing and customer expectations...40 drives with a blower and shovel is a recipe for failure and a Heart attack


You would know...


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## Mr.Markus

0% and your soul at the local Kubota/john Deere dealer.
$50k


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## Mark Oomkes

Wait...you have a 4WD truck that can't make it through 2" of snow???

Get some new tyres or engage 4WD or learn how to drive in snow. Sorry to sound rude, but not being able to drive in 2" of snow in 2WD is ludicrous much less 4WD. Soccer moms are oot in their minivans with bald tyres in 2" of snow as are well salted Ford Focus.

I'm also having a hard time understanding the amount of time. 40 driveways, 18 hours is 2.2 driveways per hour. 2 person crew makes it 1 man hour per driveway??? You should be in and out in 15 minutes tops.


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## Mark Oomkes

Mr.Markus said:


> 0% and your soul at the local Kubota/john Deere dealer.
> $50k


And $700 for a down payment.


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## BossPlow2010

Defcon 5 said:


> I'm in the 5mile and Sheldon area....Nothing but a bunch of complaing crybabys...Service times are essential...Even though you might have told them 24 hours...They didn't hear you...


Huh, Woodhaven must've gotten a wee bit bigger in the last couple years 


I'm impressed you sold a residential customer let alone 40, on 10 plows for a season.


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## Randall Ave

From what I could find, is your average yearly average snowfall bout 37 inches? What happens after you service them 10 times and the season is not over yet? Are these clients that you perform lawn maintenance for?


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## Defcon 5

BossPlow2010 said:


> Huh, Woodhaven must've gotten a wee bit bigger in the last couple years
> 
> 
> I'm impressed you sold a residential customer
> let alone 40, on 10 plows for a season.


I live in Woodhaven...Doesn't mean I plow there..


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## Plow Girl 2017

Mark Oomkes said:


> Wait...you have a 4WD truck that can't make it through 2" of snow???
> 
> Get some new tyres or engage 4WD or learn how to drive in snow. Sorry to sound rude, but not being able to drive in 2" of snow in 2WD is ludicrous much less 4WD. Soccer moms are oot in their minivans with bald tyres in 2" of snow as are well salted Ford Focus.
> 
> I'm also having a hard time understanding the amount of time. 40 driveways, 18 hours is 2.2 driveways per hour. 2 person crew makes it 1 man hour per driveway??? You should be in and out in 15 minutes tops.


Sorry should have clarified. I go out with over 2". We had about 10+ a few nights ago. I could get in. But my trailer was slowing me down. Your forgetting drive time between houses just after a snowstorm with cars sliding and moving slow.


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## BossPlow2010

Defcon 5 said:


> What's that supposed to mean???....Go back to looking out the window at the Birdfeeder


With those sl3 lights you can see way past the bird feeder


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## Plow Girl 2017

No they a


Randall Ave said:


> From what I could find, is your average yearly average snowfall bout 37 inches? What happens after you service them 10 times and the season is not over yet? Are these clients that you perform lawn maintenance for?


No they are not my lawn customers. They can buy more. Although i might send them to the next guy at that point.


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## Mr.Markus

Mark Oomkes said:


> And $700 for a down payment.


In that case 100hp...


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## Plow Girl 2017

BossPlow2010 said:


> Huh, Woodhaven must've gotten a wee bit bigger in the last couple years
> 
> 
> I'm impressed you sold a residential customer let alone 40, on 10 plows for a season.


They couldn't find anyone using a blower.


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## Plow Girl 2017

A


Plow Girl 2017 said:


> Sorry should have clarified. I go out with over 2". We had about 10+ a few nights ago. I could get in. But my trailer was slowing me down. Your forgetting drive time between houses just after a snowstorm with cars sliding and moving slow.


You did the math backward. Not 40 divided by 18, it's 18 hours divided by 40 stops, drive time and all 45 minutes each.


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## Ajlawn1

Actually you're all wrong its 27 minutes ea.....


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## Defcon 5

Whatever time all you mathematicians come up with...It's way to long...


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## Mark Oomkes

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> A
> 
> You did the math backward. Not 40 divided by 18, it's 18 hours divided by 40 stops, drive time and all 45 minutes each.


It's been a long week...we had 18" over the past week. 6 hour routes done twice a day at least two different days. Only a couple complaints.

10" isn't much either and a 4 mile radius means not much travel time. As others said, you need to speed it up.


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## LapeerLandscape

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> Sorry should have clarified. I go out with over 2". We had about 10+ a few nights ago. I could get in. But my trailer was slowing me down. Your forgetting drive time between houses just after a snowstorm with cars sliding and moving slow.


We had about 8" during the day wednesday and into the night. We started plowing after 6 o clock (most are accounts close) even though it wasnt done snowing. I would rather plow 4 to 5 inches and then the balance after its done than try and plow a full 8 or more (who knows) at who knows what time its going to end. We did that to insure we would done by the time most accounts open back up.


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## Mr.Markus

Get it down to 1-2 minutes...you can easily double your $18k in _the first season.


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## Plow Girl 2017

I also work as an accountant from home and i can’t see how you can make money doing your route twice? Especially if you are doing it with a blower. I still think if a person specifically wants a snow blower to reduce damage and agrees to 24 hours that’s that. The business model for a truck and plow pulling in and a second guy knocking off the sidewalk with a blower is vastly different than everything being done by hand. And I’m not charging anymore for the service, yet my service takes longer.

If you want service promised by the time you leave for work, you say no to my service. If you want clean to pavement you don’t turn down de icing.

But what about the first question. If 4” accumulated over three separate events do you go? Or is it assumed the client is handling snow less than 2”?


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## LapeerLandscape

The more snow we get the more we charge. Tell me your charging the same if you get 2" or 40" of snow.


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## ktfbgb

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I also work as an accountant from home and i can't see how you can make money doing your route twice? Especially if you are doing it with a blower. I still think if a person specifically wants a snow blower to reduce damage and agrees to 24 hours that's that. The business model for a truck and plow pulling in and a second guy knocking off the sidewalk with a blower is vastly different than everything being done by hand. And I'm not charging anymore for the service, yet my service takes longer.
> 
> If you want service promised by the time you leave for work, you say no to my service. If you want clean to pavement you don't turn down de icing.
> 
> But what about the first question. If 4" accumulated over three separate events do you go? Or is it assumed the client is handling snow less than 2"?


On a seasonal account it doesnt matter if the 4" was during seperate events. There is 4" on their driveway. It should have been done twice by then according to your contract. It's not the customers fault that you didn't charge enough to service their property correctly and make money. If you aren't making money then you either need to charge more, or find a way to cut down your route time to make it more profitable.

We are in different areas but I start seasonals at $1,000.00. And go up from there. Based on 10 plows for the season. But that doesnt mean that you get to stop servicing the account after the 10 events. Just like the customer doesnt get a refund if you only service it 5 times. The 10 is just a way for you to figure out pricing.

I know that your going to say the market in your area wont allow you to up the price. So, you are left with becoming more efficient. Like getting a tractor with an inverted blower.

Don't wreck your reputation the first year out. You will never recover. Chalk it up to a learning experience and do the right thing. Even if that means it costs you money. It's still cheaper than a ruined reputation.


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## JMHConstruction

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> But what about the first question. If 4" accumulated over three separate events do you go? Or is it assumed the client is handling snow less than 2"?


When I did residential, my customers didn't "handle" anything. If it snowed less than 2 inches they just dealt with it and drove over it. If we had 3 separate 1" storms and their drives were over that 2" mark, they wanted me there.


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## JMHConstruction

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I also work as an accountant from home and i can't see how you can make money doing your route twice?


By charging accordingly.


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## WIPensFan

I think someone is messing with us here...if not, you lost me at 18 hrs. Later gator.


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## BossPlow2010

I guess the best advice that I can offer and maybe it's been said;

Always have a back up plan.


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## Ajlawn1

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I also work as an accountant from home....


My guess is if you figure your route times and they correlate to your invoicing start charging hourly you'll be rolling in the dough.....


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## Luther

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> But what about the first question. If 4" accumulated over three separate events do you go? Or is it assumed the client is handling snow less than 2"?


Like stated before, you don't assume the client is handling anything. Assume they're not. They hired you to clear their snow. The answer is yes.

So your cap is 10? Your contract states that eh? Does your contract also state you have the option to deny the client service after 10? What if the client is willing to pay for more? You can't possibly be serious when you said you're going to tell them to find the next guy.


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## Luther

.....


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## Luther

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I also work as an accountant from home and i can't see how you can make money doing your route twice? Especially if you are doing it with a blower.


 You're still making money, albeit not as much....but you're still making money. You are not going backwards with it costing you to provide your clients with service.

You need to care a little more about the service aspect.


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## FredG

Your clients should be serviced every 2''. Do what you got to do for now to get though the season without a bad performance.

Hang out and ask a question before you put your contracts out. Have you been educated about average snowfall. This is important to seasonal contracts. 

On the other side of the coin they did agree to the 24 hrs. This is strange to me but I did not sign. I think you figure out your average snowfall a long with your 2'' trigger you will understand why you have to service a property more than once a event.

Your numbers are wrong if you calculated one plow for one event. Good Luck.


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## Mark Oomkes

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I also work as an accountant from home and i can't see how you can make money doing your route twice?


Seriously?

I don't work as an accountant, but I can see it. But what do I know...only own a business that's been around since 1932. Apparently our customer service sucks.

I don't think you're grasping trigger depths and customer service. Our trigger depth is 1.5"...I start making the call to plow\blow at around an inch because it takes an hour for everyone to get going. By that time, we've hit our trigger depth. And customers around here aren't going to wait 24 hours for their drives or lots to be plowed\blown. Some are calling within 4-5 hours.



Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I still think if a person specifically wants a snow blower to reduce damage and agrees to 24 hours that's that.


Agreed, as long as it's spelled out and they know what they are getting. But most people don't listen, they hear what they want to hear which might be low price.



Plow Girl 2017 said:


> And I'm not charging anymore for the service, yet my service takes longer.


You're at fault for that. But your overhead is lower. As is your dollars per hour.



Plow Girl 2017 said:


> The business model for a truck and plow pulling in and a second guy knocking off the sidewalk with a blower is vastly different than everything being done by hand.


With 2 exceptions, I have sidewalk crews doing sidewalks...the truck or tractor is always moving.



Plow Girl 2017 said:


> If you want service promised by the time you leave for work, you say no to my service.


I don't promise completion times for anything. If it starts snowing at 6 AM an inch an hour, I will not guarantee it will be clear by 7 AM. I can't control the weather and to expect anything different is unrealistic and impossible.



Plow Girl 2017 said:


> If you want clean to pavement you don't turn down de icing.


I don't even guarantee bare pavement when we _DO_ salt. Again, it's foolish and impossible to guarantee.



Plow Girl 2017 said:


> But what about the first question. If 4" accumulated over three separate events do you go?


What does your contract state?

Personally, I'd be kind of ticked to have 4" of snow in my driveway and you're not clearing it just because it took 3 events.



Plow Girl 2017 said:


> Or is it assumed the client is handling snow less than 2"?


You know what happens when you assume?

They are hiring me to clear their drive...they don't clear it when I don't show (mainly because I show).


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## Mark Oomkes

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> Sorry should have clarified. I go out with over 2". We had about 10+ a few nights ago. I could get in. But my trailer was slowing me down. Your forgetting drive time between houses just after a snowstorm with cars sliding and moving slow.


On a computer now instead of a phone.

Yes, trailers slow you down a bit. Not that much.

No, I didn't forget people driving like idiots.

How many miles are you putting on in a 4 mile radius? Maybe you need to redo your route?



Plow Girl 2017 said:


> A
> 
> You did the math backward. Not 40 divided by 18, it's 18 hours divided by 40 stops, drive time and all 45 minutes each.


You're right, but as I said it was a long week and I had the flu but worked through it. Crappiest I've ever felt while plowing.

But as others stated, your math is incorrect as well. 18\40=.45 multiplied by 60 is 27 minutes per stop. Or 54 minutes per account including drive and unload time. You need to get that down to 30 minutes TOTAL or less per account. 15 minutes per person.

So let's use an average of $375 per account multiplied by 40 comes to $15,000.00

$15,000 divided by 10 events is $1500\event.

$1,500 divided by 36 man hours is $42 hour (rounded up).

And you didn't even figure in extra time for heavy snowfalls. Or what happens when you exceed 10 services.

I wouldn't even set my alarm to check if snow is falling for $42\hour.

$42\hour for labor, truck, trailer, blowers, fuel, insurance, and whatever else. For snow work. I charge more than that for sidewalk crews. I charge way more than that for a tractor\blower.

You're going to have to increase efficiency or be willing to lose your butt this year. Even abiding by your contract.


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## ktfbgb

An hourly rate like that only pays for overhead. No wages for anyone. Including the owner.


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## Ajlawn1

Somebody needs some more snow....


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## Mark Oomkes

Ajlawn1 said:


> Somebody needs some more snow....


I was ferious (ask Ryan) with myself for screwing up the math.

But she's an accountant and can't figure out how I can make money servicing customers twice in 1 event???

She's not even making money in 1 service per event.


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## Mark Oomkes

WIPensFan said:


> I think someone is messing with us here...if not, you lost me at 18 hrs. Later gator.


I'd have to agree. I just don't see much to any of this being factual...but it is fun for a little bit.


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## Plow Girl 2017

Mark Oomkes said:


> Seriously?
> 
> I don't work as an accountant, but I can see it. But what do I know...only own a business that's been around since 1932. Apparently our customer service sucks.
> 
> I don't think you're grasping trigger depths and customer service. Our trigger depth is 1.5"...I start making the call to plow\blow at around an inch because it takes an hour for everyone to get going. By that time, we've hit our trigger depth. And customers around here aren't going to wait 24 hours for their drives or lots to be plowed\blown. Some are calling within 4-5 hours.
> 
> Agreed, as long as it's spelled out and they know what they are getting. But most people don't listen, they hear what they want to hear which might be low price.
> 
> You're at fault for that. But your overhead is lower. As is your dollars per hour.
> 
> With 2 exceptions, I have sidewalk crews doing sidewalks...the truck or tractor is always moving.
> 
> I don't promise completion times for anything. If it starts snowing at 6 AM an inch an hour, I will not guarantee it will be clear by 7 AM. I can't control the weather and to expect anything different is unrealistic and impossible.
> 
> I don't even guarantee bare pavement when we _DO_ salt. Again, it's foolish and impossible to guarantee.
> 
> What does your contract state?
> 
> Personally, I'd be kind of ticked to have 4" of snow in my driveway and you're not clearing it just because it took 3 events.
> 
> You know what happens when you assume?
> 
> They are hiring me to clear their drive...they don't clear it when I don't show (mainly because I show).


Thanks very much for the input. Im sure you know a lot. I think I'm hurting myself by waiting until snow stops. I was afraid if I started before they would complain that there was still some snow on the drive. I do care a lot about customer service. Thats why my lawn business is thriving. And you are right my overhead is lower. I think part of the problem is also that I took on too many thinking I could get them since they are pretty close together.


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## Plow Girl 2017

I don't know about where you guys are but aground me I'm competing with companies offering full season for $250 -$300. $45 per hour more than covers my expenses. The only labor I'm paying is me, at least this season as a friend owed me and is helping for free. Still leaving a 5% profit for the business. My liability insurance did not raise as my company for lawn covers it as long as snow isn't more than 50% of my revenue. I am averaging about $20 per event for gas. I do not assume you guys don't know your business please don't imply I don't know mine. 

There is a learning curve with anything and sometimes we try something and it's not for you. This is not for me. The customers I have can buy more plows. This is not life and death, its Michigan everybody owns snowblower or shovel. It's not like snow falling in Georgia. They will live without me if I don't keep handling it after the first ten. One thing about snow there is always another person with a pickup truck and a shovel that needs some cash.


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## Mark Oomkes

Lol


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## Mark Oomkes

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I do not assume you guys don't know your business please don't imply I don't know mine.


I wouldn't assume that except for the fact that there is sooooo mulch wrong in your post, you don't know your business. And at this point, I'm not wasting any more time.


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## LapeerLandscape

The problem with getting three 1 1/2" snows in a week and not clearing them is they get driven on 10-20-30 times and turn to hard pack. Then your not going to get them up with a little blower, more like a hammer and chisel or salt.


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## JMHConstruction

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I don't know about where you guys are but aground me I'm competing with companies offering full season for $250 -$300. $45 per hour more than covers my expenses. The only labor I'm paying is me, at least this season as a friend owed me and is helping for free. Still leaving a 5% profit for the business. My liability insurance did not raise as my company for lawn covers it as long as snow isn't more than 50% of my revenue. I am averaging about $20 per event for gas. I do not assume you guys don't know your business please don't imply I don't know mine.
> 
> There is a learning curve with anything and sometimes we try something and it's not for you. This is not for me. The customers I have can buy more plows. This is not life and death, its Michigan everybody owns snowblower or shovel. It's not like snow falling in Georgia. They will live without me if I don't keep handling it after the first ten. One thing about snow there is always another person with a pickup truck and a shovel that needs some cash.


Holy cow....

Where to start.
You seem to have it, so I will just let you go down the road you choose. No, this is not for everyone. I wouldn't just leave your customers high and dry though. Since your lawn care insurance covers your snow side, I'll assume you are using the same name. Why would you be willing to chance negative reviews and opinions on an up and coming business? This doesn't make since to me.

Too much else I disagree with in your post to even bother with, and I don't want to come across as I know it will.

I will leave you by wishing you luck


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## BUFF

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I don't know about where you guys are but aground me I'm competing with companies offering full season for $250 -$300. $45 per hour more than covers my expenses. The only labor I'm paying is me, at least this season as a friend owed me and is helping for free. Still leaving a 5% profit for the business. My liability insurance did not raise as my company for lawn covers it as long as snow isn't more than 50% of my revenue. I am averaging about $20 per event for gas. I do not assume you guys don't know your business please don't imply I don't know mine.
> 
> There is a learning curve with anything and sometimes we try something and it's not for you. This is not for me. The customers I have can buy more plows. This is not life and death, its Michigan everybody owns snowblower or shovel. It's not like snow falling in Georgia. They will live without me if I don't keep handling it after the first ten. One thing about snow there is always another person with a pickup truck and a shovel that needs some cash.


The way companies can get away with charging $250-300/season is with efficiencies and volume. The video with the tractor/blower set up that was posted is probably the most efficient way to handle resi's. The right equipment and a tight route with a good operator 35<> driveways can be done in an hour.
By only paying yourself is giving you false read on cost which being an account that should be pretty easy to see.
Having 5% profit at the bottom line is not a sustainable amount for a business to survive, especially when you're not currently paying for half your labor. With 5% you have no cushion for unforeseen expenses or growth. 
Snow removal is in no way remotely that same as mowing lawns, it's unpredictable and relentless at times and affects your customers every time it snows. Were mowing is once a week for 27wks <> and has no affect of your customers.


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## ktfbgb

Buff beat me to it. 5%. I hope as an accountant, you aren’t advising paying customers that 5% is an acceptable profit to shoot for. You are right, the snow game is not or you. Unfortunatly that are you serve is being trained to accept that level of service, at that price. Now the next guy, if legit and knows what he is doing, has to retrain all those customers.


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## Mr.Markus

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> I don't know about where you guys are but aground me I'm competing with companies offering full season for $250 -$300. $45 per hour more than covers my expenses. The only labor I'm paying is me, at least this season as a friend owed me and is helping for free. Still leaving a 5% profit for the business. My liability insurance did not raise as my company for lawn covers it as long as snow isn't more than 50% of my revenue. I am averaging about $20 per event for gas. I do not assume you guys don't know your business please don't imply I don't know mine.
> 
> There is a learning curve with anything and sometimes we try something and it's not for you. This is not for me. The customers I have can buy more plows. This is not life and death, its Michigan everybody owns snowblower or shovel. It's not like snow falling in Georgia. They will live without me if I don't keep handling it after the first ten. One thing about snow there is always another person with a pickup truck and a shovel that needs some cash.


There is a 15 year old on this forum who has figured out service/adaptability/ and listened to advice better! Swallow some pride,take some great advice and make yourself profitable. Signing 40 customers is no small feat, there are people here chomping at the bit to sell like that, don't screw it up now....


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## ktfbgb

Mr.Markus said:


> There is a 15 year old on this forum who has figured out service/adaptability/ and listened to advice better! Swallow some pride,take some great advice and make yourself profitable. Signing 40 customers is no small feat, there are people here chomping at the bit to sell like that, don't screw it up now....


She can obviously sell. Maybe she needs to keep selling, lease some equipment that will make her profitable, and hire a operations manager to run the show.


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## MichiganMark

IF this isn't a "fake post".....emphasis on IF....

Dump the complainers. Bite the bullet....refund the $$...chalk it up to experience gained....and move on. Not hearing from the complainers any longer is worth the price of admission. 

FWIW, you're way over-booked. I did it too my first year. Like you said...being honest is the right thing to do....send out a letter to your customers letting them know that you over-booked yourself. You're doing your absolute best, but this first season is going to be tough. Let them know what your plans are to correct things going forward (for next season), and thank them for sticking it out with you. If you see them, tell them the same. Customers do appreciate it, and it will help retain them next season.


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## F250/XLS

Plow Girl 2017 said:


> Hello
> 
> I am new to this this season. I have 40 contracts for residential snow. I spelled everything out clearly in my contract. The terms are I come if over 2" and everyone is cleared within 24 hours. Service includes driveway , sidewalks and a walkway. Hand shoveling is extra. No plows just a blower. Salt is extra which they all declined.I have some customers complaining that not enough snow is removed. That the property isn't cleared by the time they leave for work. and wanting steps shoveled.
> 
> I feel like without salting, a blower won't get down to the pavement, that steps are hand shoveling and that if I have 24 hours some people are not going to be clear first thing in the morning. Am I missing something?
> 
> Also how do you handle it if on two separate days there are two snowfalls each at or below 2"? Now they have a total of 4" should I just go or wait for a request?


Wow,40 clients with a walk behind snowblower,,,,,,and all done in 24 hrs .You are talking a lot about 2" but you
do realize that snow doesn't always stop at 2" ??? What's your plan on 6-10-15" snowfall and back to back snow storms, how long will it take you to do all of those 40 clients .


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## Grantski

40 snow blowing ? You are going to learn a harsh lesson if you haven't already. Unless you are in just one neighborhood I'm gonna say this will be impossible for anything over 6-8" or if it falls overnight.
I didn't read through but Maybe with 2 other ppl helping - 2 snowblowing and 1 shoveling.
Idk. Let us know how it works out.


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## Grantski

Also ppl think it's easy just like mowing your lawn - untill you have to do it 20x in a day ! Snowblowing is miserable unless it's not windy or snowing. I clock $100hr solo and still come home thinking it's not worth it.


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## Jacobmb

Revival!!

Are you blowing/plowing this winter?


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