# Michigan State Law for snowplowing?



## Lawnman883 (Jul 5, 2007)

Hey guys,
i got pulled over this mronign when i was out driving because the officer was upset my business name was not displayed on my truck. He also tried to get me for not having a plow license in the city i was in, but i was not activly plowing when he pulled me over..just driving. 

He said according to michigan law a commercial vehicle needs to have its business name, city, and state labled on each side if it has a gross weight over 5,000 lbs. 

Has anyone delt with this before? How much does the ticket run? (He could not tell me apperantly)

Also as I am worried about it, do we need DOT numbers? He never said anything about that...but iw ant to cover myself. Also someone told me about special license plates for commerial business/plow use? Anyone know much about that? Right now its just under my persoanl name...

thanks!


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

Cop had some correct concepts but no idea what he was talking about. Did you get any ticket at all? Yes, get truck lettered up, including DOT number. The number is free to acquire.


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## Lawnman883 (Jul 5, 2007)

JDiepstra;712743 said:


> Cop had some correct concepts but no idea what he was talking about. Did you get any ticket at all? Yes, get truck lettered up, including DOT number. The number is free to acquire.


Yeah he wrote me a citation for violating michigan motor vehicle code numver MVC 257.723
He could not tell me how much it cost or anything just said call the court and they will tell me how much i have to pay and that I need to pay within 10 days.


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## Leisure Time LC (Jul 1, 2007)

what city were you in. I see alot of trucks with no names on them running around. He probably figured you had all kinds of money for the amount of times we have plowed this season


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## Lawnman883 (Jul 5, 2007)

Leisure Time LC;712764 said:


> what city were you in. I see alot of trucks with no names on them running around. He probably figured you had all kinds of money for the amount of times we have plowed this season


I was driving thru Wyoming. I think he tried to get me on the fact that in wyoming they require a plowing license and I dont have one...but i was not operating just driving...


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## Krieger91 (Feb 7, 2008)

Lawnman883;712736 said:


> Hey guys,
> i got pulled over this mronign when i was out driving because the officer was upset my business name was not displayed on my truck. He also tried to get me for not having a plow license in the city i was in, but i was not activly plowing when he pulled me over..just driving.
> 
> He said according to michigan law a commercial vehicle needs to have its business name, city, and state labled on each side if it has a gross weight over 5,000 lbs.
> ...


I see tons of guys driving around here (Lansing / East Lansing area)with trucks that have got to gross over 5k, and they don't have lettering, or DOT numbers on them.

Perhaps that is a country or local ordinance. My best advice would be to go to your nearest State Police precinct and see what they can find. Usually State PD can find out the laws and things.


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## Lawnman883 (Jul 5, 2007)

I know i was looking today and half of the plow trucks i saw today had no info displayed on them either...i wonder if this cop was planning to get me for somethign else..


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## Leisure Time LC (Jul 1, 2007)

Lawnman883;712793 said:


> I know i was looking today and half of the plow trucks i saw today had no info displayed on them either...i wonder if this cop was planning to get me for somethign else..


I was just thinking the same thing


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

As I understand it, and I could be wrong , here in NJ if you have commercial plates you are supposed to be lettered, never heard of anyone getting a ticket though. As far as DOT numbers if you register over 10,000lbs you need numbers and a dot health card. In Hackensack where I have 7 accounts and is where my shop is you need to be liscensed by the town, must provide ins info, DL #s for all drivers, plate #s for all vehicles that "may be engaged in snow or ice control operations" and the kicker is the SSN for every driver. Oh and 250 for the permit plus 25 per after the first truck registered, if you hold the contract you can cover subs if you are covering their ins, if not they need their own #........Seems to me like a way for the city to make a few grand a year...........


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## ogdenflooring (Jan 5, 2009)

I've heard all about that cop!!!! DOT, Truck Route, plow licenses, and now Display of Business Info???!!!!!!

This guy must have a chip on his shoulder, sounds like he needs a hobby!!!! Doesn't he know Marge's Donut Den is right there on 28th!!!!!!!

I avoid Wyoming if at all possible

Good Luck


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## CityGuy (Dec 19, 2008)

Sounds like big brother is trying to screw the little guy again. City licence to plow? WTF Now I have heard it all. I can see DOT # and health card but next I suppose we are going to all have to wear the same clothing.


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## unimogr (Feb 18, 2004)

For your reading pleasure:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/rules-regulations.htm

Sounds like Wyoming is a lot like Connecticut.....


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## Lawnman883 (Jul 5, 2007)

ogdenflooring;712900 said:


> I've heard all about that cop!!!! DOT, Truck Route, plow licenses, and now Display of Business Info???!!!!!!
> 
> This guy must have a chip on his shoulder, sounds like he needs a hobby!!!! Doesn't he know Marge's Donut Den is right there on 28th!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


I was going to plow my buddy's driveway too...i was on my way to my fulltime job in my uniform and all and was not driving bad i was under the speed limit and he decided it was time to write me up for something...

He did check the wrong box on the ticket saying i violated a local ordanance, while the book he gave me said i violated a state law...maybe i can get it thrown out since he made a mistake on the ticket?? lol


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## CityGuy (Dec 19, 2008)

DA will throw that out in a heart beat as they have better things to worry about. You just have to waste a day in court house. No money for your time.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Did he show you the law?? What did the book say?? 

I just had to buy plates and while at the Sec State I called 888-464-8736 and the officer I spoke with said commercial plates are not required until truck weight is 8000# - nothing to do with DOT #, strictly the commercial plate. 

I told him I was in construction, we do haul and are very often over 10000, which requires the DOT #. 

I'd like to see what he violated you for. Wyoming and Jenny can kiss my butt, we drive thru there with a plow on and I'm sure we'll be hassled.


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## Lawnman883 (Jul 5, 2007)

framer1901;712960 said:


> Did he show you the law?? What did the book say??
> 
> I just had to buy plates and while at the Sec State I called 888-464-8736 and the officer I spoke with said commercial plates are not required until truck weight is 8000# - nothing to do with DOT #, strictly the commercial plate.
> 
> ...


He showed me in the commercial book MVC 257.723. Thats what he wrote me up for.

So if my truck can handle up to 9900lbs, do I need commercial plates? Empty i dont weigh over 8,000...


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## nwtf5 (Jan 7, 2009)

Sounds like sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane on the dukes of hazzard. (maybe he needed his driveway plowed ... hehe) that wyoming area is crazy for the law enforcement... are they still charging service calls (police) if your in an accident and NOT from wyoming . not sure how he can give a ticket when your not plowing,,,, as long as truck was legally road worthy...cheers !!


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## ogdenflooring (Jan 5, 2009)

He WILL show up to court to fight it.......he has nothing better to do!!!!!


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## ogdenflooring (Jan 5, 2009)

Hamelfire;712942 said:


> DA will throw that out in a heart beat as they have better things to worry about. You just have to waste a day in court house. No money for your time.


I personally know of 2 cases in Wyoming similar to this. It's only 1 cop who enforces these "silly" laws. Same guy both times.


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## mullis56 (Jul 12, 2005)

what a suck ftick


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## drivewaydoctor (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm no expert but if the blade was on the front of you truck I'm pretty sure the judge would deem that as "operating" since the truck is a "plow truck" the minute you put that plow on..

We dont have this law here but I wish we did. I have seen idiots driving a plow and dumping snow where I was stuck having to clean it up and no freaking phone number on their trucks to call them.


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

Oh, the good ole Wyoming diesel bear who dont know jack.

Heres where you have him, the truck is in YOUR name without any business marking therefore, technically, your not a commercial vehicle. Second, since your driving through and not providing any services in the City of Wyoming a license is not needed. 

As for stopping to do your buddies driveway, as long as it isnt for profit, its not a commeercial service.

Fight this jerk, bring your registration with your name on it, If your insurnace has your name on it, bring that also and a picture of your truck without any lettering. If you mentioned to the "Jerk" that you were on your way to plow a buddies, make sure you tell the judge (if asked) that its something you do to help him out, he doesnt pay you because thats what buddies do. Dont mention that you do any plowing for any $$$, you have the plow to do your driveway and help out a family memebers and your buddy when it gets bad.


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## gary42095 (Jan 4, 2009)

crash has ir right al least as far as i can tell being an out of stater. guy was just being a typical a-hole. if you did not get caught in the act then you were not "working" you were transporting plow for service, "it was broke" you were passing through, you live there and do your own driveway and thats it, you own your own business and plow 300 acres with it... but its not for profit... like crash said. unless he saw you plowing and can prove you were getting paid... i think you have it beat.. unless there is some bullsh#$ law where you cant enter town with a plow on your truck... check your guns at the door boys.....


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

I googled "MVC 257.723" and this site came up

http://www.bordercenter.org/wastewatcher/general_info.html

Vehicle identification
MVC 257.723
All commercial vehicles with a single or combination gross weight rating or total gross weight of more than 5,000 pounds and all towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles in operation upon the public highways of this state shall have the name, city, and state or the registered logo or emblem of the registered owner of the vehicle, and lessee of the vehicle if the vehicle is being operated under lease, painted or permanently attached on each side of the vehicle in letters of not less than 3 inches in height, not lower than the bottom edge of the door. This information shall be in sharp color contrast to the background.

Sounds like if you have your logo on the side, then you are ok. My Dodge 1500 that I plow with has a GVWR of 6400 lbs. I'm sure it doesn't weigh that, but thats what they go by.

Everyone plowing for money NEEDS to have either their business logo or registered owner's name, City & State on it in 3" letters.

As for your case. You were not making money at the time of the ticket, there for you could fight it and say you are not in the business of snow plowing. If on the other hand, you have a business in your name and you do make money plowing snow, then you need to letter your truck and pay the fine.


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

Crash935;713507 said:


> Oh, the good ole Wyoming diesel bear who dont know jack.
> 
> Heres where you have him, the truck is in YOUR name without any business marking therefore, technically, your not a commercial vehicle. Second, since your driving through and not providing any services in the City of Wyoming a license is not needed.
> 
> ...


Crash- The Truck being in your name has nothing to do with it. Us "Diesel Bears" have enough training and are actually smarter than you might think. And guess what..so are the judges. You can go to court and tell all you want and say you dont do anything for money. Or say you were "not plowing for money" just going to a friends.

Suck it up..if your truck is over 5000 pounds put your name on the sides like the law says. We dont make the laws we just enforce them. To you they might seem petty. But thats what we get paid for...to enforce laws pertaining to CMV's. And if you actually new how many safety violations that we place drivers and vehicles out of service you would be surprised. And all these violations have been proven to reduce the number of CMV' involved in fatal accidents and accidents in general.

Now I offer alot of good advice and help ALOT of people on here and Lawnsite when it comes to the CMV laws (MICHIGAN).

I "could" make 50 traffic stops during the next snow storm all for plow trucks not having the name on the side. Will I? Nope I cant remember the last time I have. But thats me. So if I or anyone else stops you for that so be it.

Petty stop- headilght out...results .35 PBT drunk driver
Petty stop 2- Tail light out...results 470 pounds Marijuana in a Semi
Petty stop 3- seatbelt- kidnapping arrest with kid in truck
petty stop4- no name on truck (semi) ->Stolen semi- bet the owner was happy my partner stopped him.
petty stop 5- overwidth plow- suspended driver

And I wont even get into all the pieces of junk that are being ran out there with out of service violations that you cannot see until you stop them and inspect the vehicle(s) and see the pinched off brake lines, no brakes, no trailer brakes, insecure loads etc etc

So what you might think is petty can result in saving lives.

With love,
"The Jerk"


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## S-10 Plower (Nov 28, 2003)

I had a case like tis a few years ago but it was over parking, i guess in the town I live in there is a law that says you can't park a commercial vehical in your drive way unless your drive way is directly off a main road. I had my 04 2500Hd with plow and magnet signs on the door when the cop wrote me a ticket I was able to get it thrown out due to the fact that the registration and insurance was in my name not the business. although I was the only one on the street to receive a ticket there are 3 other guys on my street with plows and 1 guy with a fence installation business that has a dump truck F-650 I believe sitting in his drive way. 

As for the DOT # I know most every guy around me has gotten one, my buddy just got his he said it was free but his sign person charged him $150.00 to put it on his two trucks just before a snow storm

Has any one heard about having Lettering and DOT # If you just plow you and your familys driveway with like a S-10 Blazer???


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## Turbodiesel (Aug 5, 2008)

Lawnman883;712736 said:


> Hey guys,
> i got pulled over this mronign when i was out driving because the officer was upset my business name was not displayed on my truck. He also tried to get me for not having a plow license in the city i was in, but i was not activly plowing when he pulled me over..just driving.
> 
> He said according to michigan law a commercial vehicle needs to have its business name, city, and state labled on each side if it has a gross weight over 5,000 lbs.
> ...


He must have been bored


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## DHDB (Oct 27, 2008)

"Not For Hire"!


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

DHDB;714469 said:


> "Not For Hire"!


Means nothing


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## toyman (Dec 4, 2007)

d&r I had a couple questions. 

Just sent you a PM. 

thanks in advance.


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## windrowsnow (Aug 31, 2008)

my buddy had two of his guys going to pick up a plow truck from the dealer across the line. well state trooper pulled em over....wrote em a citation no cdl,no health card, no dot numbers, truck not being lettered. well since his driving record panned out the trooper gave him a citation on the dot numbers and said your friend has to come with me......"why"......hes a suspected illegal immigrant working here illegaly. takes his mexican and within 24 hours he is shipped to miami. and the crazy thing is the guy was legit...had all his paper work.


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## coral (May 4, 2008)

D&R Lawncare, are you law enforcement? or just well knowledged? if you are law enforcement, i appreciate all that you do, it seems that the only ones to complain are the ones that should not be operating in the first place. Play by the rules and everyone wins. Seems there are a lot of ignorat people out there.


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## FeelLikeANumber (Oct 15, 2005)

The cops an idiot. By insurance reg's you're allowed to plow your driveway and one/two other drives without claiming it under "commercial." As long as you were doing it for "free" still though without a name on the truck would mean that you're not a "commercial business" truck therefore making it a personal vechicle and meaning that you dont need D.O.T. sticker's or a name on your vehicle. For all he knows if you weren't plowing at the time you could have just been going to the grocery store to pick up a few items for yourself/family, or appointment, whatever the case. Regardless having no name/d.o.t. doesnt mean you're in violation. What if you only purchased the plow/truck to handle your own driveway? Why should you have to put a business name on it? You shouldnt. Therefore meaning you're nowhere in the wrong and should be able to travel the roads as you see fit with/without your plow attached.


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## Lawnman883 (Jul 5, 2007)

Well, i called the court today and she said they have a flat fee of $195 for my violation due within 8 days. I asked about court date and she said i just need to pay the fine. i asked again what if i want to take it to court and she said i could stop by and request a hearing but it would be in 4-6 weeks.

i am gettign 2 signs made and have the hope that if i prove i fixed the violation i can get it off my record...
i had a spotless record and i dont want something like this on my driving record as it could affect my ability to drive compnay vehicles for my other full-time job.

So much for making any money plowing this year....i've only had the plow for 3 weeks and have already had to spend money on repairs and now a ticket...
i hardly have any accounts thus far and it's tough to add more at this point...


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## Krieger91 (Feb 7, 2008)

Let me see if I understand what I've been reading here.

If my K20 or S-10 Blazer weigh over 5,000 lbs with the blade on, I have to get my name lettered on the side along with a DOT number?


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## Lawnman883 (Jul 5, 2007)

Krieger91;714736 said:


> Let me see if I understand what I've been reading here.
> 
> If my K20 or S-10 Blazer weigh over 5,000 lbs with the blade on, I have to get my name lettered on the side along with a DOT number?


If your GVW on your door sticker is higher then 5,000 lbs then i know you at least need the truck lettered...thats what i got in trouble for...my truck GVW is 9900 lbs...


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

d&rlawncare;714435 said:


> Suck it up..if your truck is over 5000 pounds put your name on the sides like the law says.


So my 3/4 ton pick up with a plow that doesnt get used for any profit, only for my drive has to have my name on the side of it?

Are you the Wyoming DOT officer or do you know him?

I dont have a problem with the DOT laws, have to follow them every day and have met more than enough DOT officers from to many states and havent had any problems with them. The truck in my avatar was my truck and more than one officer pulled me around back because they thought a "older" truck was a easy target to make some $$$. Wrong, have the stack of Level 1 and 2 inspections that all say "Passed" and several compliments on the level of maintance to the old girl.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Crash i do believe thats a federal law. i posted a link in another thread but i do not have the time to dig it up from here or the web


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Lawnman883;714733 said:


> Well, i called the court today and she said they have a flat fee of $195 for my violation due within 8 days. I asked about court date and she said i just need to pay the fine. i asked again what if i want to take it to court and she said i could stop by and request a hearing but it would be in 4-6 weeks.
> Requesting a court date will at least give you time to pay the bill. But if/when you loose you probably will have to pay it right then.
> 
> i am gettign 2 signs made and have the hope that if i prove i fixed the violation i can get it off my record...i had a spotless record and i dont want something like this on my driving record as it could affect my ability to drive compnay vehicles for my other full-time job.
> ...


here are the 10 charetors to make this a post.


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## nwtf5 (Jan 7, 2009)

all comes down to money( doesnt it) ???sheriff roscoe , i agree with crash..... might have a chance at defending yourself if you just bought the plow - and wasnt in the act of plowing.or in any safety violations (weight limits gvwr) putting a plow on doesnt warrant a license, otherwise you would have to apply when you bought it.


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## Lawnman883 (Jul 5, 2007)

i dont think i was in violation of anything else or i probably would have gotten an additional citation. one of my tail lights got cracked but he did not say anything about that. I'm having signs made now but they wont be ready to install for a week or so...
I just hope i dont get pulled over again ebfore i get them on. I've noticed so many guys with no name or info on their trucks, but i guess i just stand out
lol


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## Upper5percent (Dec 28, 2008)

Question 2: What is the lettering requirement for commercial vehicles in Michigan, haven't they changed recently?

Yes, the Michigan Vehicle Code modified it's lettering law in 2005. In MVC 257.723 the following requirements apply to vehicles used for business activities:

(1) All commercial vehicles with a single or combination gross weight rating or total gross weight of more than 5,000 pounds and all towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles in operation upon the public highways of this state shall have the name, city, and state or the registered logo or emblem of the registered owner of the vehicle, and lessee of the vehicle if the vehicle is being operated under lease, painted or permanently attached on each side of the vehicle in letters of not less than 3 inches in height, not lower than the bottom edge of the door. This information shall be in sharp color contrast to the background.

(2) Except for towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles, the identification requirements of subsection (1) may be met through the use of removable devices which meet the requirements of subsection (1). These devices shall be of durable construction and securely attached to each side of the motor truck or truck tractor. The removable devices shall be attached so that the identification is in a horizontal position.

(3) A vehicle in compliance with the identification requirements of the federal motor carrier safety regulations, 49 CFR parts 390-399, is considered to be in compliance with this section.

(4) This section does not apply to a truck eligible for and registered under a farm or manufacturer license plate, that has a gross vehicle weight of less than 10,000 pounds.


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

PaulChristenson;716264
(2) Except for towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles said:


> At what point would it be legal to remove said devices?
> When said vehicle is being used for personal use or conveyance?


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

Crash935;716280 said:


> At what point would it be legal to remove said devices?
> When said vehicle is being used for personal use or conveyance?


when not in commercial use


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

coral;714594 said:


> D&R Lawncare, are you law enforcement? or just well knowledged? if you are law enforcement, i appreciate all that you do, it seems that the only ones to complain are the ones that should not be operating in the first place. Play by the rules and everyone wins. Seems there are a lot of ignorat people out there.


Law Enforcement. and Thank you


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## ondirtymax (Dec 22, 2008)

The very first 3 words in MVC 257.723 says "All COMMERCIAL vehicles.....", How the hell can a state trooper or any law enforcement officer know without a doubt when they pull you over that you use your vehicle for commercial purposes??, if you have commercial plates or not! If you don't have commercial plates, then from my understanding of what you guys have posted on the quoted law, you don't need a name or numbers on the door, makes sense no?? Don't just pay this ticket, consult a lawyer or ticket specialist and ask their advice. The police count on you just paying it. I am not badmouthing cops or diesel bears, and yes d&r, i know petty stops often result in other finds, but really, why was this guy pulled over? He wasn't plowing at the time, just travelling with his plow hanging on the front of the truck. To me that is a very petty stop. Like i said i am just interpreting your quoted law. The law does't say specifically anything about plow trucks, it says and i quote "single or combination GVRW or total gross weight of over 5000lbs...........) Whats the GVRW of a plain old 1/2 ton ext cab chev,ford,or dodge? I bet you its over 5000lbs! Does that mean everyone in Michigan who owns a half ton truck needs commercial plates and lettering and numbers?? C'mon use your head as an officer! Petty, very petty!


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

Argue the points all you want .... ultimatly it comes down to this ..... *MONEY* payup

Given the DA politicians who tax us to no end and without representation and have NO real budget to dollars the police are being looked at like a profit center. Goofy tickets, red light cameras, higher fees, higher court costs, quicker impounding of vehicles, stickers, new laws, etc, etc, etc. AND has anyone asked the voting public what they want?????

I say voter em ALL out.


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## slongfellowii (Dec 29, 2004)

When the fine city of Wyoming was messing with me, they sent me violations for parking commercial vehicles at my residence. Anything over a 3/4 ton is considered a commercial vehicle according to the State of Michigan codebook. I'm sure that it was written about 50 years ago when no one other that a farmer owned a pickup let alone all the soccer moms that I see driving one ton diesels. The worst part is that every truck I own is a 3/4 ton, so the inspector/ police officer/ judge gets to determine whats commercial is or not.


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## AndyTblc (Dec 16, 2006)

I'm supprised they pulled him over for something like that. Come down to wayland, with it being 3 degrees, you can do donuts infront of one of the officers and he'll just wave, cuz he don't wana get out in the cold.


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

Wow, sounds like your police there need something else to do. I've never seen a plow truck pulled over here. Heck I had an officer following me in my new truck without plates. He didn't even stop me. Guess that's the tale of 2 cities of different size.


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## Krieger91 (Feb 7, 2008)

Yeah, I hate the way laws are written. Since it says that anybody with a 1/2 or 3/4 ton would have to register it commercially.

If that's the case I'm gonna have to letter and register my K20 if I ever plan to use it as a plow truck.

And, yes...everything, especially politically, is about the money nowadays. Damn shame, everybody wants more payup for less wesport


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

d&rlawncare;716404 said:


> when not in commercial use


So he was driving through town, didnt tell the officer he was going someplace to plow or on personal business, does he need the signage?

And you never answer the question, are you the Wyoming DOT officer?


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## gusdust (Jan 6, 2008)

Weighmaster for Ingham County (Lansing Mich.) Is giving tickets for over width plows. My buddy has a 8' straight boss with 1' wings . No mention of commercial plates or name on doors. He is definitely in the plowing business. So could have been worse. $150 ticket. Weighmaster said he wouldn't bother him in the middle of the night but daytime diff. story. Course weighmaster doesn't work at night. Never heard of a plowing license. just in some cities?


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

ondirtymax;716448 said:


> The very first 3 words in MVC 257.723 says "All COMMERCIAL vehicles.....", How the hell can a state trooper or any law enforcement officer know without a doubt when they pull you over that you use your vehicle for commercial purposes??, if you have commercial plates or not! If you don't have commercial plates, then from my understanding of what you guys have posted on the quoted law, you don't need a name or numbers on the door, makes sense no?? Don't just pay this ticket, consult a lawyer or ticket specialist and ask their advice. The police count on you just paying it. I am not badmouthing cops or diesel bears, and yes d&r, i know petty stops often result in other finds, but really, why was this guy pulled over? He wasn't plowing at the time, just travelling with his plow hanging on the front of the truck. To me that is a very petty stop. Like i said i am just interpreting your quoted law. The law does't say specifically anything about plow trucks, it says and i quote "single or combination GVRW or total gross weight of over 5000lbs...........) Whats the GVRW of a plain old 1/2 ton ext cab chev,ford,or dodge? I bet you its over 5000lbs! Does that mean everyone in Michigan who owns a half ton truck needs commercial plates and lettering and numbers?? C'mon use your head as an officer! Petty, very petty!


I will not beat a dead horse. If your commercial you need the stuff. Your right 100% of the time we cannot be sure, therefore you wont get pulled over. But WE ARE NOT DUMB. Next time you see a plow truck ask yourself. Is he commercial. I bet you could figure it out.

He was pulled over for no carrier ID. Simple.

Yes everyone in Michigan who owns a vehicle over 5000 pounds and used commercial needs lettering. Commercial plates is another story.

Oh and I will use my head as an Officer, thank you for your permission. Maybe I should just stop offering free advice on here and give some good old roadside advice.


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

Crash935;717705 said:


> So he was driving through town, didnt tell the officer he was going someplace to plow or on personal business, does he need the signage?
> 
> And you never answer the question, are you the Wyoming DOT officer?


Commercial use is not when you are just plowing. Going to and from job sites is commercial use. You cant just "float" to your next lot and plow it. You have to drive your equipment on public roadways to get to each site and while you are doingthat you are a CMV.

And no I am not that Wyoming guy. I probably know him if that guy gives me the name Because I use to work for the State Police for 5 years. It dont matter were I work. But I know people on here that read this and are well aware of who I am and were I work.


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

Krieger91;717111 said:


> Yeah, I hate the way laws are written. Since it says that anybody with a 1/2 or 3/4 ton would have to register it commercially.
> 
> If that's the case I'm gonna have to letter and register my K20 if I ever plan to use it as a plow truck.
> 
> And, yes...everything, especially politically, is about the money nowadays. Damn shame, everybody wants more payup for less wesport


Take the time to look were the money goes... You will be surprised. Walk into your local Library and look around.....


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## ondirtymax (Dec 22, 2008)

Won't beat a dead horse? 3 posts with no responses, looks like a beating to me. All I'm saying is by the way the law is written, it gives you permission to pull over every person with a blade on their truck. If you pulled over every black person, wouldn't that be called racial profiling? All I am saying is the DOT guy that pulled this guy over is assuming he is commercial (granted he his by his on admission on here, so he should have the signage). What if it had been a 60 yr old grandma driving her husbands pickup that is used solely for their 1.5 mi country driveway? From what most on here are saying about the guy he would probably have ticketed her! Thats a dick IMO!


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## Krieger91 (Feb 7, 2008)

d&rlawncare;717909 said:


> Take the time to look were the money goes... You will be surprised. Walk into your local Library and look around.....


True. But I see alot of money being blown for BS reasons, too.

So, what differentiates commercial from private? As I've said, I've got a 3/4 ton K20 with a 7.5 Meyer on it, and I want to put a Sno-Way on my Blazer. These would both be for doing family driveways and such. Would I need to have commercial lettering if GVW is over 5,000? Or would they be considered private use vehicles?

Obviously, if I started doing resi's for money, they'd be commercial. THEN I could understand getting them lettered. So, that raises another question: Would I have to run/be a part of a company to letter it with the company name? Or would I have to have my name, and town/state lettered on the sides of my trucks? (Again if GVW is over 5,000 pounds with plow on)


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

this is getting alittle ridiculous. there are alot more plow guys on the road then little old ladies in their husbands work truck, what a childish comment 

why do you guys fight the laws? if you applied half the time that you spend fighting them on following them you would have nothing to worry about.

D&R is a respected member of plowsite and lawnsite who contributes alot to the boards and you guys are arguing with him just becuase you dont want to follow the rules!? :crying:


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

I don't think anyone is specifically fighting any law. I think it is just the common fact with everyone in that there are Soooooo many laws, regulations, etc that it seems common sense had been thrown out the window.

Look at the laws and one can first see that our politicians ( or as I like to call them the lords ) are trying to legislate for every single issue regardless that the issue they are controlling is an exception. So us the surfs are caught up and having to pay. What item does not have an ever increasing dollar value and tell me the government ( we the people, of the people for the people - my a-- ) isn't using the police as a profit center to make up for their over spending and poor judgment and ruling.


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

D&R,

I am glad that your not the Wyoming DOT guy. The "Jerk" comment was not directed towards you, just the Wyoming guy. I have dealt with my share of DOT officers and have always treated them with respect, shared jokes with them, had general conversations and have asked questions regarding interpretation of DOT regs. The problem with the Wyoming guy is that he interprets the laws the way he wants and not the way they are written at the time of the traffic stop.

Your input is not only needed but appreciated here, we need a DOT guy, just be prepared to take some heat on some issues.

Again, hope theres no hard feeling about the jerk comment and hopefully we can get this 5000lb rule cleared up because it does seam kind of vague as to separating business or personal use of a vehicle while it has a plow hanging off the front.


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## nwtf5 (Jan 7, 2009)

Right on snow miser and crash,,, if officer was truly concerned about this guys equipment why didnt he do an inspection???? ( possibly he doesnt know much about plows or gvwr"s).. just thought he was doing his duty,, to what extent. I plow my own drive with a 78' bronco and drive to town now and then,,, do i need a commercial license ? i think not.Unless theres more to it other than original post. he didnt deserve a ticket. if sheriff Roscoe seen him plowing 2 or more drives then there is concern.Maybe a warning of advice would have been suffice!!! very petty on wyoming city offices, especially when receptionist says"just pay the fine"...


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## Do It All Do It Right (Jan 24, 2005)

d&r sent you a pm its a question on a ticket i talked to you in the fall about.


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## TOOMUCHWALKING (Jan 16, 2009)

Hi Folks, new to this forum although I post on Lawnsite. I just had this issue pop up in my world as well. My seventh year plowing, with only two accounts in Grand Rapids. A Cop pulled up and asked me if I'm " licensed ", meaning G.R. plow license. Where are your signs ? He came from a few doors down where he was visiting another plower. Next question was " do you own the property " ? Proceeded to cite me for no plow license...misdemeanor ? Court date ? WTF??? Never asked for registration or insurance card. Maybe the Mayor's mailbox got knocked over and this means war ? No doubt this will bring in lot$ of municipal revenue...This is in no way a slam on Police; I respect them very much. Just curious why this just got important


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## Runner (Jul 21, 2000)

Actually, here in Flint, it is the same thing. A city License is required to plow within the city limits. This law has been in place for several years, and to this day, has NEVER been enforced. There is no way the city police are going to get out of their warm vehicles to approach a plow driver to see if he is licensed in the city to plow. They have enough trouble getting out of their vehicles to deal with REAL crimes,...let alone something like this...


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

I might get in trouble for this, but I think a snow plowing "permit" is a good idea. 

One for your business, not for every truck like a DOT # is.. Prove you have a license, insurance, dba or higher, flasher, name or logo & phone # on your truck, dot # if required, maybe even basic knowledge test. (Like: Is it legal to push snow across the street?) Then they should give you a sticker to put on the windowshield. Like a state parks sticker. That way they wouldn't have to get out of the car to see if you had one. If you didn't, it would be more revenue for the city when they ticket you.

They would have to see you plowing, not just driving through town. Not required if you are only plowing your own house or not charging at all.

Honestly, everyone knows of That Guy that plows without insurance for beer money and does something stupid everytime it snows. This would elimanate that.


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## rawdog (Feb 20, 2007)

just what we need..more laws


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

rawdog;718749 said:


> just what we need..more laws


well if people quit being such morons they wouldnt need laws to control them


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

QuadPlower;718627 said:


> I might get in trouble for this, but I think a snow plowing "permit" is a good idea.
> 
> One for your business, not for every truck like a DOT # is.. Prove you have a license, insurance, dba or higher, flasher, name or logo & phone # on your truck, dot # if required, maybe even basic knowledge test. (Like: Is it legal to push snow across the street?) Then they should give you a sticker to put on the windowshield. Like a state parks sticker. That way they wouldn't have to get out of the car to see if you had one. If you didn't, it would be more revenue for the city when they ticket you.
> 
> ...


Sorry .. not a chance. The gov can not properly enforce what is on the books now. Why add another layer. I plow with my truck in the winter and use it for general transport in the summer ( ie no work efforts ) so, why would I want lettering on my truck. You will always have fools in every aspect of life and throwing another layer of gov on top is NOT going to correct it. Heck their are dui laws now ... does that stop drunk drivers, how about gun laws ... it's illegal to kill someone ... still happens.

no more cracker jack laws. vote 'em all out!


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

TOOMUCHWALKING;718262 said:


> Hi Folks, new to this forum although I post on Lawnsite. I just had this issue pop up in my world as well. My seventh year plowing, with only two accounts in Grand Rapids. A Cop pulled up and asked me if I'm " licensed ", meaning G.R. plow license. Where are your signs ? He came from a few doors down where he was visiting another plower. Next question was " do you own the property " ? Proceeded to cite me for no plow license...misdemeanor ? Court date ? WTF??? Never asked for registration or insurance card. Maybe the Mayor's mailbox got knocked over and this means war ? No doubt this will bring in lot$ of municipal revenue...This is in no way a slam on Police; I respect them very much. Just curious why this just got important


License is required for G.R., Wyoming, Kentwood and Grandville.

They dont check very often, usually middle of the night when its really really slow or when they have had complaints related snow removal contractors in the area.


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

rawdog;718749 said:


> just what we need..more laws


And they arent always smart about the ones they make.

Back in the 90's, the Grand Rapids City Attorney decided to change the license requirments by asking for 1 year proof of auto insurance. In the state of MI you can only write a 6 month policy. Dad was selling insurance at the time and went to get permits and tried to explain to the clerk that what they were asking for was illegal. He finally gave up, went back to his office and wrote a 1year policy, went back to the clerk, who had called the attorney by now, and gave her a 1 year policy. The attorney was in the office and asked my dad how he got a 1 year policy. Dad just looked at him and said, "If the city cant follow the laws, why should I". Still only need a 6 month policy!


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## ondirtymax (Dec 22, 2008)

Terrapro.........was simply stating that it sounds like the DOT guy in wyoming would ticket a lil ole lady for something like that............not being childish at all, just stating my opinion. D&R, comments were not directed at you, but if you want to take offense to them thats your issue. All I am saying is the way the law is written it leaves too much of a grey area left up to the officer's opinion. How do you you fight that in court? Its a fact in life that there are idiots in all professions, Snowplowing, truck drivers, police officers, doctors, etc etc etc.............I could personally care less how the law is written as i am not from the area, was just offering my interpretation, never said i was right or wrong, but at least i offered up more than, "what a childish comment" or "if people quit being morons". Thanks for you insightful input.


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## Upper5percent (Dec 28, 2008)

TOOMUCHWALKING;718262 said:


> No doubt this will bring in lot$ of municipal revenue... Just curious why this just got important


You answered your own question...

Revenue generation is going to become the watch word for municipalities with the massive decline in property and income tax revenues...


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## Krieger91 (Feb 7, 2008)

PaulChristenson;719252 said:


> You answered your own question...
> 
> Revenue generation is going to become the watch word for municipalities with the massive decline in property and income tax revenues...


Bingo. With state and national economies in the pooper, municipalities along with state and fed gov't are going to have to make money somehow, some way.

I agree with the posters who said there's so much gray area in these laws. And, on the road, the officer is the judge and jury, so even if you're right, you're wrong. And, just my experience, good luck fighting police officers in court. I've tried 3 times for 3 BS tickets and lost each time.


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## ogdenflooring (Jan 5, 2009)

d&rlawncare;717909 said:


> Take the time to look were the money goes... You will be surprised. Walk into your local Library and look around.....


Anybody been in Wyoming's new state of the art Police Dept??? or City Hall???


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## ogdenflooring (Jan 5, 2009)

QuadPlower;718627 said:


> I might get in trouble for this, but I think a snow plowing "permit" is a good idea.
> 
> One for your business, not for every truck like a DOT # is.. Prove you have a license, insurance, dba or higher, flasher, name or logo & phone # on your truck, dot # if required, maybe even basic knowledge test. (Like: Is it legal to push snow across the street?) Then they should give you a sticker to put on the windowshield. Like a state parks sticker. That way they wouldn't have to get out of the car to see if you had one. If you didn't, it would be more revenue for the city when they ticket you.
> 
> ...


Basic knowledge test??????Windowshield??????? WOW!!!!!!!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Lawnman883;712767 said:


> I was driving thru Wyoming. I think he tried to get me on the fact that in wyoming they require a plowing license and I dont have one...but i was not operating just driving...


Heard of this guy too.



Krieger91;712776 said:


> I see tons of guys driving around here (Lansing / East Lansing area)with trucks that have got to gross over 5k, and they don't have lettering, or DOT numbers on them.
> 
> Perhaps that is a country or local ordinance. My best advice would be to go to your nearest State Police precinct and see what they can find. Usually State PD can find out the laws and things.


Federal law, but some states are requiring DOT numbers and others don't. Not sure how that works.



Lawnman883;712929 said:


> I was going to plow my buddy's driveway too...i was on my way to my fulltime job in my uniform and all and was not driving bad i was under the speed limit and he decided it was time to write me up for something...
> 
> He did check the wrong box on the ticket saying i violated a local ordanance, while the book he gave me said i violated a state law...maybe i can get it thrown out since he made a mistake on the ticket?? lol


Give it a shot, can't hurt.

If your vehicle or combination of vehicles grosses over 10,001#'s, you need a DOT, displayed on your truck along with company name. Anywhere in the state of MI.

So as soon as you hook a trailer to your truck, you need it, unless it's a personal vehicle.

Commercial vehicle is rather broadly defined.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

d&rlawncare;714435 said:


> Crash- The Truck being in your name has nothing to do with it. Us "Diesel Bears" have enough training and are actually smarter than you might think. And guess what..so are the judges. You can go to court and tell all you want and say you dont do anything for money. Or say you were "not plowing for money" just going to a friends.
> 
> Suck it up..if your truck is over 5000 pounds put your name on the sides like the law says. We dont make the laws we just enforce them. To you they might seem petty. But thats what we get paid for...to enforce laws pertaining to CMV's. And if you actually new how many safety violations that we place drivers and vehicles out of service you would be surprised. And all these violations have been proven to reduce the number of CMV' involved in fatal accidents and accidents in general.
> 
> ...


So, just out of curiousity, when are you guys going to start pulling over the junk haulers that are overloaded? Dumping crap all over the roads? Bumpers dragging on the roads?

With love, 
Your overtaxed and over-regulated employer

PS Doing the best we can trying to follow all rules and regulations, but having to deal with DOT, Dept of Ag, Dept of Treasury, IRS, DOL, OSHA, MIOSHA, WC board, Wage & Hour, it just isn't possible. Sure I'm missing more than a few.

PPS I realize muni trucks are exempt from some of the regs, but how about overweight? you ever scaled one of these trucks with front plow, V-box, underbody, dump box and operator?


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## Krieger91 (Feb 7, 2008)

Can somebody tell me how I go about getting a DOT number?

I'm planning on running my K20 next year as a backup to my Blazer (hoping to pick up some resi's in addition to plowing my families' driveways), and it's gotta have a GVWR of more than 5k. But I don't knwo for sure because the sticker is gone.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

d&rlawncare;717903 said:


> I will not beat a dead horse. If your commercial you need the stuff. Your right 100% of the time we cannot be sure, therefore you wont get pulled over. But WE ARE NOT DUMB. Next time you see a plow truck ask yourself. Is he commercial. I bet you could figure it out.
> 
> He was pulled over for no carrier ID. Simple.
> 
> ...


D&R, I know I asked some pointed questions in a previous post, and I think most of us are thankful for LEO's, but being in this industry you have to know that profit margins suck at best, we work long hours in crappy weather and don't always have time to fix every burnt out light bulb or missing mud flap--as we found out in Wyoming last year--but most of us do the best we can.

Actually, this asshat in Wyoming stopped one of my operators because we were off a truck route on a Saturday, traveling from one job to another. Only thing he found was the missing mud flap, which we hadn't had time to replace and we also had a fender that would probably have met requirements, but I didn't have the time to argue it. This guy is giving Wyoming a bad name and needs to remember who HIS employers are.

FWIW, I'm a paid on call firefighter, and I need to remember the same thing. I am not working for the township, I am working directly for that person who called 911 and I need to treat them that way.

Yet we have to put up with crap like this. As for the last comment, I'm sure you were upset, but remember, we the taxpayers ARE your employers. WE pay your salary. This does NOT give us the right to flaunt the laws, but remember, most of us do the best we can.



scottL;718037 said:


> I don't think anyone is specifically fighting any law. I think it is just the common fact with everyone in that there are Soooooo many laws, regulations, etc that it seems common sense had been thrown out the window.
> 
> Look at the laws and one can first see that our politicians ( or as I like to call them the lords ) are trying to legislate for every single issue regardless that the issue they are controlling is an exception. So us the surfs are caught up and having to pay. What item does not have an ever increasing dollar value and tell me the government ( we the people, of the people for the people - my a-- ) isn't using the police as a profit center to make up for their over spending and poor judgment and ruling.


Exactly Scott.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

QuadPlower;718627 said:


> I might get in trouble for this, but I think a snow plowing "permit" is a good idea.
> 
> One for your business, not for every truck like a DOT # is.. Prove you have a license, insurance, dba or higher, flasher, name or logo & phone # on your truck, dot # if required, maybe even basic knowledge test. (Like: Is it legal to push snow across the street?) Then they should give you a sticker to put on the windowshield. Like a state parks sticker. That way they wouldn't have to get out of the car to see if you had one. If you didn't, it would be more revenue for the city when they ticket you.
> 
> ...


You're right, you are in trouble. GR has many\most of these requirements, but does not enforce them. So what good is it?

GR has approx 55 contractors licensed. You believe there are only 55 contractors in the city of GR?


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## unimogr (Feb 18, 2004)

I've been doing a little research and came accross this site:

http://www.truckingsafety.org/faq/faqgen.htm

I'm trying to make sure I'm in compliance in RI. I believe the Federal rules apply unless an individual State has more stringent rules?


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## Upper5percent (Dec 28, 2008)

*Application for USDOT Number*



Krieger91;719470 said:


> Can somebody tell me how I go about getting a DOT number?
> 
> I'm planning on running my K20 next year as a backup to my Blazer (hoping to pick up some resi's in addition to plowing my families' driveways), and it's gotta have a GVWR of more than 5k. But I don't knwo for sure because the sticker is gone.


http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/documents/forms/r-l/MCS-150-Instructions-and-Form.pdf

There are more forms if you are are going to haul for a living...

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/forms/print/r-l-forms.htm


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Wither or not they are enforced is not my job. What the police choose to pull you over for is their business.

My question would be, those of you in GR plowing snow with your city license to do so, does it bother you that there are people plowing without following the rules? 

You paid your money, you have all the requirements, but Joe Blows plowing is out there without it making a profit on work you could be doing.

Would you pay say $15 and 30 minutes of your time to be legal and have the ones that weren't ticketed? And then possibly getting their work?

My point is that I'm legal, dot, ins, pay taxes, etc. And there are guys out there plowing that don't have that stuff. If they were either pushed out or complied, that would mean more work for me.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

scottL;718768 said:


> Sorry .. not a chance. The gov can not properly enforce what is on the books now. Why add another layer. I plow with my truck in the winter and use it for general transport in the summer ( ie no work efforts ) so, *why would I want lettering on my truck.* You will always have fools in every aspect of life and throwing another layer of gov on top is NOT going to correct it. Heck their are dui laws now ... does that stop drunk drivers, how about gun laws ... it's illegal to kill someone ... still happens.
> 
> no more cracker jack laws. vote 'em all out!


Because its the law!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

QuadPlower;720744 said:


> Wither or not they are enforced is not my job. What the police choose to pull you over for is their business.
> 
> My question would be, those of you in GR plowing snow with your city license to do so, does it bother you that there are people plowing without following the rules?
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity, how's that law that requires all drivers to be licensed working out?

Or the one that does not allow drunk driving?

Or the one that makes it illegal for someone to DWLS?

Laws are not the answer, especially when the only reason the laws are in place are to raise revenue for governments that do NOT know how to control their spending.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;719477 said:


> You're right, you are in trouble. GR has many\most of these requirements, but does not enforce them. So what good is it?
> 
> GR has approx 55 contractors licensed. You believe there are only 55 contractors in the city of GR?


How many of the ones that don't get a license even know that they are suppose to?
How many of the police even know that it is the law?
How many citizens know about it and hire non-licensed plowers?

That is beside the my point. How many of the plow site members have complained about "the guy that doesn't have insurance and is plowing for beer money"? OR "There are a bunch of guys running around town without a name or a phone number on their truck."

If the police don't want to enforce it, its their fault. But when some guy buys a plow for his own driveway and then decides to go out and take accounts from legit businesses that are trying to make a living for themself and their employees, that pisses me off. Worse yet when they don't have ins or paying taxes or don't know enough to not push snow across the street.

My question is: would you pay say $15 and spend 30 minutes of your time to become legit and thereby try and elimate the guys that aren't and better the image of our profession in the process?


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## plowman01fishin (Jan 18, 2009)

Only in michigan ! We deal with this all the time....but please note the city of wyoming or the lansing area never sites there own for blocking fire hydrants or fire lanes! Mike....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

QuadPlower;722566 said:


> My question is: would you pay say $15 and spend 30 minutes of your time to become legit and thereby try and elimate the guys that aren't and better the image of our profession in the process?


Sure, as long as gov't is not involved. Take one example--sub-prime mortgages.

Name me one example of the gov't running anything efficiently and as intended. One thing other than the military.

As for the other questions, ignorance is no excuse. If they don't know currently that it is required, how is requiring it going to change it? Your argument is a circular argument.


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## TOOMUCHWALKING (Jan 16, 2009)

Update to my trouble--$223 for a license ( still waiting...) and $140 for court. That's the better part of $400. Teh suxor !


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

sorry about your problem... i dont think NJ has anything of that nature, BUT you cant have your "residential" insured truck covered for snow removal in NJ. Has to be a commercial company/registration. With that said, i think the cops should pull over every joe that he sees enter a commercial property and start plowing without at the very least, company name, phone number, town theyre from and weight rating on the side of the truck.

i see commercial "plates" on plow trucks with NOthing on the sides all the time and i see just as many non commercial plates, and you guessed it, nothing on the sides.

Now owning your own truck and plow to go plow out grandma's house, different story, and of course these guys arnt your ones pulling into the local dunkin donuts to plow anyway, so the cop would never spot one in "violation".

Im shocked you got cited while not even plowing though. What if you told him you bought the plow to plow your pops long driveway out since hes handicapped or something lol? Do you need a PERMIT just to attach a plow on your truck and travel the roadways?


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## TOOMUCHWALKING (Jan 16, 2009)

I actually was plowing. It was 8 am


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## Herm Witte (Jan 27, 2009)

All of the vehicles my firm owns have Company ID's, DOT numbers displayed and are licensed. One of my subs did not display that information and was ticketed for that a year ago. (same community) The issues stated are and have been the law for some time. Registering with the DOT is free. FYI, he was also cited for having a radar detector. Illeagal in a commercial vehicle. You might argue that the vehicle was a personal vehicle but all of that goes out the window when you provide a service and accept money for it.

Herm Witte

Witte Lawn Maintenace, Inc.

Serving West Michigan since 1957


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## Snowshow (Nov 22, 2002)

My question is to those that think that they have to lie about what they are doing to get around a simple law!! Why must people be compelled to go and "fight" the officer in court and just tell them that they were driving around and going to do jobs for free. We all know that about 99% of those on the road with commercial type plowing equipment on their trucks are operating for hire, pure and simple. I have been plowing for 15 yrs and only know of one person who "actually" has a plow on the front of his f150 to do his 1/4 mile long driveway. 

We all agree the economy is tight, we all feel it. But all of my commercial trucks have to be lettered, plated, insured, and with the proper DOT numbers. WHY? This is the law. I don't have to lie to the officer when we get pulled over that I was just going to plow a friends house. Where is our professionalism in this industry. Calling an officer a "jerk" or some other name shows some of the professionalism in this industry just because you got a lousy ticket. Grow up and operate a legitimate business.

We plow several commercial locations in the City of North Muskegon. We are required to have permits to plow within the city limits. WHY? Because it the ordinace. I did not write it. The officers did not write it. But somewhere someone through it be prudent to have this permit in place. Can we change it? Go and visit a city commission meetings and voice your opinion. In the meantime, we pay the 15.00 dollars to the city and we move on for a good season. We have been stopped twice this winter by the local officer at 3am in the middle of the snow storm just to check our permits. While I think it gets a little overboard, we are in compliance and off we go and there are no propblems. Over time, the state DOT officers as well as the local officers get to know your company names and will leave you alone if you have everything in place. I support them stopping other companies that are not in compliance. WHY? Because it's the law and the rest of the professional operators that work out here have to have it so why shouldn't they! Read the laws and if you can't understand them, just ask someone. Don't be quick to judge the local officer or DOT, because someday you just might need them! Think about that. Just my 02.


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

Snowshow;738486 said:


> My question is to those that think that they have to lie about what they are doing to get around a simple law!! Why must people be compelled to go and "fight" the officer in court and just tell them that they were driving around and going to do jobs for free. We all know that about 99% of those on the road with commercial type plowing equipment on their trucks are operating for hire, pure and simple. I have been plowing for 15 yrs and only know of one person who "actually" has a plow on the front of his f150 to do his 1/4 mile long driveway.
> 
> We all agree the economy is tight, we all feel it. But all of my commercial trucks have to be lettered, plated, insured, and with the proper DOT numbers. WHY? This is the law. I don't have to lie to the officer when we get pulled over that I was just going to plow a friends house. Where is our professionalism in this industry. Calling an officer a "jerk" or some other name shows some of the professionalism in this industry just because you got a lousy ticket. Grow up and operate a legitimate business.
> 
> We plow several commercial locations in the City of North Muskegon. We are required to have permits to plow within the city limits. WHY? Because it the ordinace. I did not write it. The officers did not write it. But somewhere someone through it be prudent to have this permit in place. Can we change it? Go and visit a city commission meetings and voice your opinion. In the meantime, we pay the 15.00 dollars to the city and we move on for a good season. We have been stopped twice this winter by the local officer at 3am in the middle of the snow storm just to check our permits. While I think it gets a little overboard, we are in compliance and off we go and there are no propblems. Over time, the state DOT officers as well as the local officers get to know your company names and will leave you alone if you have everything in place. I support them stopping other companies that are not in compliance. WHY? Because it's the law and the rest of the professional operators that work out here have to have it so why shouldn't they! Read the laws and if you can't understand them, just ask someone. Don't be quick to judge the local officer or DOT, because someday you just might need them! Think about that. Just my 02.


Could not have been said any better. Thank you and AMEN TO THAT!


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## ondirtymax (Dec 22, 2008)

I agree with what you are saying in essence snowshow.........but what i was trying to say earlier in the thread is that there are people that have plows on their trucks purely for personal use. Just because you only know one person with a blade on their truck for personal use doesn't mean there aren't others. I myself am one of them.........I do my drive, and my neighbours, a couple of my buddies and my inlaws and my parents, all for FREE. My buddies occasionally buy me a case of beer and my family pays me in other ways...(babysitting etc.....) My question to you D&R and SNOWSHOW is........If i lived in wyoming,mi i feel i would not need a plowing license form the city or dot numbers or commercial insurance. Why? 'Cause i'm not a business and i'm not accepting money for my services. Now put in place a DOT guy like the one in wyoming..........why should i have to be bothered with being pulled over repeatedly by this guy......and he souinds just like the type of guy who would continuously harrass anybody with a blade on their truck from what other posts have said! I am not saying all officers or dot guys are a-holes, but it definently sounds like this one is. And like I said before in an earlier post, you get them in all professions, cops, production workers, truckers and yes even plowing. The only problem is an a-hole cop can cause you a ton of grief and money. Like i said, i agree with your opinion that the laws should be followed, but they should also be followed by the officers. Just because a truck is driving through wyoming with a blade on it doesn't give him the right to pull it over. If he observed it plowing a commercial lot, then yes definently it should be checked, but travelling down the road isn't just cause.


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## Snowshow (Nov 22, 2002)

Thank you for the response ondirtymax, and first of all let it be known that I respect your opinion on this issue. I get from your post that you are not a commercial or residental contractor. What I mean is that you are not relying on snow removal to put food on the table or a roof over your family's head. This issue has been covered in past posts but the fact is as stated in your last post, you are for hire. You had stated yourself that you take payment, like exchange for babysitting or a case of beer. Just because you are not receiving actual money for you services doesn't mean that you are not for hire. While it might seem like I am splitting hairs with you, the fact remains that you are taking some sort of compensation for your work and therefore ARE GETTING PAID. Do you pay taxes on that case of beer or report your "trade" status to the government? Do you have commercial insurace if someone slips and falls in your friends driveway and gets seriously hurt? Do you think that a judge would buy the fact that you don't have insurance or "It really doesn't mean anything" because I plowed the driveway for a case of beer? I would think again. 

Last but not least, I refuse to believe that this Wyoming officer is just out picking on people. If the officer stops the truck and gets lied to over and over, yelled at, or disrespected, do you think that he will remember this when he sees you out three nights later in a snow storm going over to your "friends" house to plow out the driveway for a case of beer. You bet your bottom he will remember the attidude he got. WHY? All because you didn't want to go down to the local city government and file the 15.00 dollars to get a permit to plow in the city in which you recieved some sort of "compensation" in. This whole things doesn't have to cost anyone a ton of money, if the laws are followed the first time throught.


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

Snowshow;739354 said:


> Last but not least, I refuse to believe that this Wyoming officer is just out picking on people.


You need to belive it!!! This is a officer who has let his position go to his head and will interpurt the law to his benefit. My neighbor is a officer for a city that butts up to wyoming and even she has told me that if you get stopped by this guy you are screwed no matter what.


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## two_superdutys (Oct 19, 2008)

Read the law word for word this is very important. Read the very first part "All commercial vehicles" is your vehicle plated commercial if not this law will not apply to you. You must tell the judge this. There is not a law that sayes you cannot sell a sheet of paper for say $40.00 and plow the driveway for free.

Vehicle identification
MVC 257.723
*All commercial vehicles *with a single or combination gross weight rating or total gross weight of more than 5,000 pounds and all towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles in operation upon the public highways of this state shall have the name, city, and state or the registered logo or emblem of the registered owner of the vehicle, and lessee of the vehicle if the vehicle is being operated under lease, painted or permanently attached on each side of the vehicle in letters of not less than 3 inches in height, not lower than the bottom edge of the door. This information shall be in sharp color contrast to the background.

(2) Except for towing or platform bed wrecker road service vehicles, the identification requirements of subsection (1) may be met through the use of removable devices which meet the requirements of subsection (1). These devices shall be of durable construction and securely attached to each side of the motor truck or truck tractor. The removable devices shall be attached so that the identification is in a horizontal position.

(3) A vehicle in compliance with the identification requirements of the federal motor carrier safety regulations, 49 CFR parts 390-399, is considered to be in compliance with this section.

(4) This section does not apply to a truck eligible for and registered under a farm or manufacturer license plate, that has a gross vehicle weight of less than 10,000 pounds


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## bdbwtie1 (Jan 17, 2009)

so if im understanding this correctly. If i am using my personal truck for my landscape business, it would have to be licensed for commercial vehicle. Being that it would wieght more than 5000lbs with trailer i would have to have it stickered with company name and dot permantely?? so on the weekends when i am doing my own personall thing i have to have these ugly stickers on my truck and really watch what i do" being in the public eye"?? A freind of mine uses his personal vehicle in this same manner and uses magnets, is this not legal, or is there a different way to do it than have permanent stickers on my truck???


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

"the identification requirements of subsection (1) may be met through the use of removable devices which meet the requirements of subsection (1). These devices shall be of durable construction and securely attached to each side of the motor truck or truck tractor. The removable devices shall be attached so that the identification is in a horizontal position."

Meaning, magnetic signs will work.


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## bdbwtie1 (Jan 17, 2009)

good, i would hate to have to put something permanent on my purty truck. thanks!


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## ondirtymax (Dec 22, 2008)

Snowshow..........thanks for setting the tone on your response, i respect that you're in the business to provide for your family and i agree with you on the point that if your in business, and the law requires the signage and commercial insurance, then yes you should follow the law. But i disagree with your point that i'm for hire. I do not solicit my buddy for a case of beer to plow his driveway, or do i solicit my in-laws or parents for babysitting in lieu of payment for plowing their driveway, rather i plow it 'cause they're family, and they babysit sometimes 'cause its their grandkids. Same with my buddies (2 in total for which i clean up their drives on occasion). I do not ask for the beer, sometimes they'll drop a case off, sometimes they don't, its not every time that i plow that they do it. That in no way is being in business, its called doing a favour for a friend or family. Yes i understand your point, but i don't think you understand mine. This DOT is abusing his position from what i can gather from the previous posts. Like i said before, having a blade hanging on the front is not just cause for a traffic stop. On aanother note, please don't group me into the "lowlifes" that plow for payment in beer. I have a job, a good one at that for which i can buy my own beer, and the 5 drives that i do as favours have never been done by a plow untill i bought mine, so in no way am i cutting someones throat or livelyhood.


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## d&rlawncare (Jan 29, 2007)

ondirtymax;738899 said:


> I agree with what you are saying in essence snowshow.........but what i was trying to say earlier in the thread is that there are people that have plows on their trucks purely for personal use. Just because you only know one person with a blade on their truck for personal use doesn't mean there aren't others. I myself am one of them.........I do my drive, and my neighbours, a couple of my buddies and my inlaws and my parents, all for FREE. My buddies occasionally buy me a case of beer and my family pays me in other ways...(babysitting etc.....) My question to you D&R and SNOWSHOW is........If i lived in wyoming,mi i feel i would not need a plowing license form the city or dot numbers or commercial insurance. Why? 'Cause i'm not a business and i'm not accepting money for my services. Now put in place a DOT guy like the one in wyoming..........why should i have to be bothered with being pulled over repeatedly by this guy......and he souinds just like the type of guy who would continuously harrass anybody with a blade on their truck from what other posts have said! I am not saying all officers or dot guys are a-holes, but it definently sounds like this one is. And like I said before in an earlier post, you get them in all professions, cops, production workers, truckers and yes even plowing. The only problem is an a-hole cop can cause you a ton of grief and money. Like i said, i agree with your opinion that the laws should be followed, but they should also be followed by the officers. Just because a truck is driving through wyoming with a blade on it doesn't give him the right to pull it over. If he observed it plowing a commercial lot, then yes definently it should be checked, but travelling down the road isn't just cause.


I see were you are coming from and yes then you are right YOU would not need to follow commercial laws. I just dont pull you over cause you have a blade on the front. I MUST have a reason. I patrol an entire county, but I can also point out to you almost every truck that has a plow on it that is commercial. I can drive out in the country part of the county and tell you every farmer that has a blade on his truck and plows there own farm properties. I dont just see a plow and assume. It does not take but 2-3 snow falls to drive around and see who is commercial and who is not.

I also enforce laws like overwidth and overlength. Now you can be plowing (non-commercial) with a 8'6" str8 blade add wings and go over 8'6" and you could get stopped.

Plus I live in a county were unless you own a business or are a farmer the chances of you have a plow on the front of your truck and not doing it for hire are very slim. We just dont get that much snow. But like I said before that still does not give me a reason to pull you over. And if I did pull you over and found out you were not commercial I would make sure not to do it again.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

two_superdutys;739850 said:


> Read the law word for word this is very important. Read the very first part "All commercial vehicles" is your vehicle plated commercial if not this law will not apply to you. You must tell the judge this. There is not a law that sayes you cannot sell a sheet of paper for say $40.00 and plow the driveway for free.
> 
> Vehicle identification
> MVC 257.723
> ...


Yes, and if you read the definition of a commercial vehicle, you will find out that technically a car can meet the definition of a commercial vehicle.

The definition depends on what you are doing with said vehicle. So you may or may not meet the requirements.



d&rlawncare;740065 said:


> We just dont get that much snow. But like I said before that still does not give me a reason to pull you over. And if I did pull you over and found out you were not commercial I would make sure not to do it again.


Hmmm, 93" isn't that much snow? lol

Hate to see what you do think is a lot. Unless you don't live in the county you work in.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

bdbwtie1;739893 said:


> so if im understanding this correctly. If i am using my personal truck for my landscape business, it would have to be licensed for commercial vehicle. Being that it would wieght more than 5000lbs with trailer i would have to have it stickered with company name and dot permantely?? so on the weekends when i am doing my own personall thing i have to have these ugly stickers on my truck and really watch what i do" being in the public eye"?? A freind of mine uses his personal vehicle in this same manner and uses magnets, is this not legal, or is there a different way to do it than have permanent stickers on my truck???


Is it your landscape business? Why would you have "ugly stickers" as your logo or business name? Create a decient logo and put it on your truck. Put your phone number on there so you can attract business.

5000 pounds requires your name or logo. 10001 requires dot. I would be willing to bet your truck weighs more than 5000. If you pull any kind of trailer with any kind of equipment on it, then it probably weighs more than 10001.

Adding logo's to your truck opens up a hole new world of tax deductions. Fuel, ins, advertising, etc. You are paying taxes right?


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## YPLLLC (Dec 4, 2008)

haha...if they tried to leach off snow plowing businesses in saint louis...no one would plow those few days of the winter


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## stumpslawncare (Dec 19, 2006)

If you were not engaged in the action that he wrote you a ticket for then I would fight the ticket, down side if you lose you now have court cost attached to it. 

What was his probable cause to pull you over? Last time I checked it was not against the law to drive down the road with a snow plow. If he did not witness you plowing then I would think the premise for the stop is unwarranted. Maybe try to make an appointment with your District Attorney's office to question the legality of the stop in the first place. Your DA might dismiss the charges.

JMO


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## ondirtymax (Dec 22, 2008)

YPLLLC;740256 said:


> haha...if they tried to leach off snow plowing businesses in saint louis...no one would plow those few days of the winter


Exactly someone else's point in this thread..........the law is nothing but a grasp at money because they do get enough snow to warrant a business that can survive on snow removal. You don't have to agree with it, but sadly, you do have to follow it.:realmad:


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## 07F-250V10 (Jul 18, 2011)

Thats ********. if you dont have a business name on your truck and you get pulled over just say its for my personal use....how is he ever going to know?


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