# 2 yard spreader in a 3/4 ton truck



## BDEMOTT (Oct 10, 2005)

I know im going to get some heat and many different views on this one. I have currently a 3/4 to 1 yard spreader that has been fine for me until now, I have 3 of my accounts going to a zero tolerance instead of just plowing. I need the extra capacity and am wondering if anyone has pictures of a 2 yard salter in a 3/4 ton truck. I currently have a 07 Chevy 2500Reg Cab. Before anyone says it I know I am going to be over wieght, but for a short distace until I start spreading it. Does anyone know what the total wieght of my truck is unloaded. Im posting it in theis section to see pictures of how good or bad it would hold it.


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## got-h2o (Sep 26, 2008)

It'll hold it fine. Get a set of bags and tires that will hold the weight.


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

07 Reg cab. Is this a long bed or short bed. Gas or diesel


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## rebert (Nov 6, 2008)

if its a reg cab it has to be long bed..


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## STIHL GUY (Sep 22, 2009)

airbags will help...they will not increase the gvwr but they will help handle the load. i have airlift load lifter 5000 air bags on my reg cab 2500HD


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

I'll throw you some heat....

It's your funeral if you get in an accident.

I'm just disgruntled with guys running around with normal plates and over-loaded trucks and they don't eve get looked at by law enforcement. 

I have commercial plates with the correct weight rating, and that seems to be a giant red-flag for the local law enforcement to pull me over and weigh me.


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## mike1316 (Sep 16, 2007)

U will be fine. Here a pic of my old truck sorry don't have any better pic right now. I'll try to find more this week.http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m556/mike13161/attachment.jpg


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Common practice, Airbags or timbrens are a must. Don't carry a full load unless you are on your way to spread it. 

I carry a Shpe2000 (2 yard saltdogg poly/elec/auger) in a 3/4 ton dodge with timbrens load range H tires. I find I get the best performance from the rig if I carry a scoop (3/4yd) of material (salt) while plowing. Good traction, limited yawl, surfactant mass, while not suffering from load induced power loss. Doing the Raisin Bran thing (2 scoops) is OK but I notice the weight while plowing, more though fuel consummation and handling issues then performance. Once I start to salt though I have it fully loaded with-out problems, though I will agree I am grossly overloaded according to my door sticker and registration. four scoops is the maximum I've ever had in it on this truck and I do not recommend it. The tires are screaming, the rig is so top heavy it is scary, it feels like the load moves the truck around at will. Helps to keep the blade on the truck while it increases the curb weight it acts as a very effective counter weight/ballast.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

White Gardens;1198646 said:


> I'm just disgruntled with guys running around with normal plates and over-loaded trucks and they don't eve get looked at by law enforcement.
> 
> I have commercial plates with the correct weight rating, and that seems to be a giant red-flag for the local law enforcement to pull me over and weigh me.


Where did he say he was running "normal" plates?

Basher pretty well summed it up. Don't plow with it full. Airbags are essential, as with heavy tires. If you fill it, empty it soon.

Basher - what size are the LR H tires?


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## carl b (Dec 28, 2006)

load range h 
my load range e tires are 10 ply


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Yet those Load Range E tires only have a couple of plies......


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

2COR517;1198869 said:


> Where did he say he was running "normal" plates?
> 
> Basher pretty well summed it up. Don't plow with it full. Airbags are essential, as with heavy tires. If you fill it, empty it soon.
> 
> Basher - what size are the LR H tires?





> Before anyone says it I know I am going to be over weight, but for a short distance until I start spreading it.


How many people in the snow industry actually put commercial plates on a 3/4 ton truck? I'm sure there is a select few, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say he doesn't.

I don't want to hear the justification of "it's only a short distance" either. That still doesn't make it right.

That and even with the weight of a salter and a small load, it's still over-weight. Just the plow and the salter on the truck is going to max out it's GVWR.

I'll be strait honest with you guys, I have a severely huge chip on my shoulder over this issue. I'm doing everything legal, why can't everyone be held to the same standards.

That and I have a young son, and the last thing I want is any overloaded, over rated truck putting my son's life in jeopardy on the road.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

I ran 18K plates on my K2500


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

2COR517;1199054 said:


> I ran 18K plates on my K2500


Ya, and running 4 tons over the manufactures gvwr is the way to go too.

Love it.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

White Gardens;1199068 said:


> Ya, and running 4 tons over the manufactures gvwr is the way to go too.
> 
> Love it.


When did I say I ran 4 tons over the GVWR?

I did exceed my registered weight a few times, though......


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Like I said before, I have a chip on my shoulder.

I'm not trying to be a complete jerk in this thread, but justifications and breaking the law are really cut and dry.

There isn't any gray areas.


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## ISLDSNOWREMOVAL (Dec 21, 2010)

white garden im sure you follow every law to the book. their nothin wroung with be over weight if smart about it.... but im also not saying you should be flying down the interstate get some bags and drive slow just my .02


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

I run a 2500 dodge and fill my 2 yard spreader every storm.Truck handles it.I do have overload springs and timbrens.Remember that its not a race and you will be ok.Try to get it off as soon as you can.I have commercial plates on my truck.In R.I. all 3/4 ton trucks run commercial plates.I don't see how the plates make any difference though.


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## carl b (Dec 28, 2006)

White Gardens;1199045 said:


> How many people in the snow industry actually put commercial plates on a 3/4 ton truck? I'm sure there is a select few, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say he doesn't.
> 
> I don't want to hear the justification of "it's only a short distance" either. That still doesn't make it right.
> 
> ...


well what do you weigh ? I see you have a 1 ton so 12500- 13500 is your gvw . empty with plow you sit at 8,000-10,000 so you only put 1.5-2.5 tons of salt in ?

btw I run 14 k plates cus, I add the trailer weight in too . so, my 3/4 ton sits at 7,300 I put 1/2 ton of salt I'm maxed out. . luckily, thats all I need for my route . in the summer I weigh 13,500 with my trailer and it has brakes on it to .


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

White Gardens - have you ever weighed your front axle with the plow on? How about with the plow on and your bed filled with salt/sand? What's your FAWR?


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## BDEMOTT (Oct 10, 2005)

I knew that this would start a heated debate. I do have commercial plates on my truck. Im on the edge with this one and whether or not im going to go through with it. My thought is that I dont want to have to buy a salt truck and pay someone to run it for just 2 ton of salt. I do have plans of expanding and it will result in the purchase of a designated salt truck next year but not this one. As of right now i have done everything by the book and for years it cost me, just in the last 2 years i have come to really know the industry in my area and the contracts are flying in. This would be a temporary risk, and i understand the safety of others involved and i guess im was only posting this as a feeler for how the truck would handle it. I do run a striaght lace operation and i dont want anyone to think otherwise.


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

White Garden I see your point and agree. That being said I would think most people would say that a few pounds over the GVWR will not matter. By a few pounds I mean GVWR being exceeded by 5 or 10lbs for a short distance. I am not saying this is okay. But what is the cutoff for being over the GVWR and not being a danger to yourself and others. That is why there are rules and regulations. Trucks have been engineered and tested to be safe under "x" circumstances. I have to put D plates on my truck and get the semi annual safety sticker in order to legally load my truck to its GVWR.
It irritates me when I see trucks overloaded. The neighborhood junker is a good example. I see plenty of guys in the trades doing the same thing with construction material & tools.The average homeowner driving down the road or highway and having their mattress, piece of plywood or you name it and Iv'e seen it is tied down with twine or being held by the drivers and passengers hand out the window on top of the roof of the car. How is that legal. I'm surprised more people aren't hurt or do we just not read about it. I am not trying to say or look like I have never broken a traffic law because I have. To consistently overload ones truck with a load is a very bad idea. Putting airbags, timbrens or whatever suspension assist on the vehicle is not the answer and does not increase the GVWR. This question and topic has appeared on this site numerous times and will continue to be discussed.The GVWR on vehicles has a max and it should not bee exceeded. Just my .02


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

BDEMOTT;1199132 said:


> I knew that this would start a heated debate. I do have commercial plates on my truck. Im on the edge with this one and whether or not im going to go through with it. My thought is that I dont want to have to buy a salt truck and pay someone to run it for just 2 ton of salt. I do have plans of expanding and it will result in the purchase of a designated salt truck next year but not this one. As of right now i have done everything by the book and for years it cost me, just in the last 2 years i have come to really know the industry in my area and the contracts are flying in. This would be a temporary risk, and i understand the safety of others involved and i guess im was only posting this as a feeler for how the truck would handle it. I do run a striaght lace operation and i dont want anyone to think otherwise.


Why not make 2 trips to the yard or keep the salt on site


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## BDEMOTT (Oct 10, 2005)

swtiih;1199164 said:


> Why not make 2 trips to the yard or keep the salt on site


Its not one site but rather 6 small sites. trip to the yard is going to be way to much time. I might end up subbing the extra salting to another company.

Can anyone tell me what the unloaded weight of my truck it. Ive looked everywhere and cant seem to find it. Again its a 2007 reg cad 2500 long box Gasser.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

2COR517;1199118 said:


> White Gardens - have you ever weighed your front axle with the plow on? How about with the plow on and your bed filled with salt/sand? What's your FAWR?


Yep, sure have had it weighed, and I know my legal limitations.

2268 is my FAWR. With a gas engine being lighter than a diesel block, I've never even blinked an eye about my weight with my plow on.

I will say in fairness that I might have been slightly over-loaded in the past when it comes to the manufactures GVWR, and I'll explain. And, even with my plate rating, I might be *slightly* overloaded occasionally.

The state of Illinois will allow plates on a truck to be no more than 1000lbs over the manufacture GVWR. I have a truck that is 15k for the GVWR so they give me plates that are that are for 16k.

Without the plow and salt spreader I have a curb weight of just at 9000lbs. That gives me the capacity to haul 3.5 tons and keep right at my legal limitations.

I've been weighed with *just under* 3 tons of salt in the truck with my equipment and I skirt right around 16k.

I've also been pulled over and weighed by the local nazi weigh police and I have never been over-weight when this happens, including each individual axle.

My trailer for the truck is a 10k equipment trailer. That gives me a combined weight limit of 25k according to the manufactures specs, keeping me under the CDL range during the summer.

And to summarize and clarify, my biggest beef coincides with SWTIIH thinking. People ask wayyyyyy too much of a 3/4 ton truck or less and want to justify sticking 4000 lbs on it when the truck is maxed out to begin with after all the equipment has been strapped on it.

My truck is built to withstand the abuse that is asked of it. The majority of 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 ton trucks aren't mechanically built to withstand the abused that many people ask of them.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

What was the front axle weight? 2268 FAWR? Seems kinda low to me. My 97 K2500 front axle curb weight was 3,500. And that was with a 350, not a big block.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

2COR517;1199187 said:


> What was the front axle weight? 2268 FAWR? Seems kinda low to me. My 97 K2500 front axle curb weight was 3,500. And that was with a 350, not a big block.


Not sure if I looked at the tag right then, but I'm wondering if it's the capacity of the front axle. Now that I think about it, it should be around 5k +.

My tag is different than a stock door tag as the truck was built by a local truck builder that has the trucks certified after it has been completed, so it doesn't read the same as a stock door tag.


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## PerfectEarth (Feb 18, 2010)

I've always been a stickler for adhering to GVWRs and all the rules... I don't see how it's worth it to beat up your trucks- or worse, risk an accident because you can't stop. In my first year out at night doing snow, I have been laughing at some of the 2500/250 trucks I've seen DRAGGING the rear bumper on the ground, loaded with salt beyond imagination. I don't even know how these guys steer. Good thing the roads are empty at night.

Going over a tiny bit, fine. We've all been there. We don't have scales at our shops. Going over DANGEROUSLY, that's stupid.


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

BDEMOTT;1199181 said:


> Its not one site but rather 6 small sites. trip to the yard is going to be way to much time. I might end up subbing the extra salting to another company.
> 
> Can anyone tell me what the unloaded weight of my truck it. Ive looked everywhere and cant seem to find it. Again its a 2007 reg cad 2500 long box Gasser.


• Weights: 
gross vehicle weight rating (lbs) 9,200,
curb weight (lbs) 5,308, 
gross trailer weight braked (lbs) 10,400 
and max payload (lbs) 3,892

http://www.automotive.com/2007/101/.../99/specifications/exterior-aerodynamics.html

by the time you add up the plow, salter ,yourself , fuel, tools, snowblower if you carry one I would say 1 yd on the full side of salt is probably your limit


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## Brian in MO (Feb 1, 2010)

White Gardens;1199182 said:


> Yep, sure have had it weighed, and I know my legal limitations.
> 
> 2268 is my FAWR. With a gas engine being lighter than a diesel block, I've never even blinked an eye about my weight with my plow on.
> 
> ...


Not to hijack a thread but I read you have a 10K trailer. I will be the first to say I don't know about IL laws, but in MO any trailer with a 10K gwr automatically requires a CDL . You might want to check on that since all states are supposed to have the same laws on CDL's. Not saying your wrong but here in MO you would be required to have a class A CDL to pull that trailer (I have been through this with a dot officer).


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## KEC Maintaince (Jan 1, 2011)

i know this might not help but ill say it any way on your smaller accounts couldnt you leave some bagged salt there and load up as needed. i dont know the size of the accounts something to think of.


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## ff610 (Jan 9, 2009)

I have a couple 3/4 tone trucks left in my fleet. (Never waste my time buying another one again) But I run a 1.8 yard spreader in the one with no problem but I do 2 things. First thing I do is upgrade to heaver suspension thus making the suspension the same in the rear as a 1 ton truck. Secondly I add timbrens. Again, my thought is save the expense and just buy 1 ton and larger trucks now, but it can be safely done. Also, plate your trucks to what you want including a trailer if necessary to cover you a##. In Iowa it is $25 per additional ton on the tags per year. 

Now you are worried about people driving around overweight..... What do you think happens on our interstates every day? They give overweight permits all the time for this and it's just a money maker for the government. I can buy a wide load permit for $300 per truck per year to drive around with a wider plow that 8'6" rather than get a $360 ticket like my guys got last month hauling a skid loader back to my shop for repairs with a 10' pusher on it. Debate it all you want but the government has rules that have to be followed. What else can you do.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I had our 2+ yard V box in our dump but no one liked driving the dump so I moved it to my F250 and no issues at all. I will say we have 2 extra rear springs on each side of the leaf pack and a 4 pack of helper springs to boot. When we load it up to where its heaping over the top a bit (maybe 2.5-2.75 yards of salt), it only squats the truck about 2-3 inches. I'm sure it over weight but it handles it just fine.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Brian in MO;1199370 said:


> Not to hijack a thread but I read you have a 10K trailer. I will be the first to say I don't know about IL laws, but in MO any trailer with a 10K gwr automatically requires a CDL . You might want to check on that since all states are supposed to have the same laws on CDL's. Not saying your wrong but here in MO you would be required to have a class A CDL to pull that trailer (I have been through this with a dot officer).


I'm picturing cretebaby just rubbing his hands together with a big grin on his face right now.


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## ZamboniHDB (May 8, 2004)

White Gardens;1199182 said:


> The state of Illinois will allow plates on a truck to be no more than 1000lbs over the manufacture GVWR. I have a truck that is 15k for the GVWR so they give me plates that are that are for 16k.


Wrong about the plates. It just so happens that you're truck's GVW comes in 1K under the Illinois F plate maximum. I have an F550 that has a 19,500 GVW with H plates and the maximum is 26K.

Illinois commercial plates start off here;

D Plates 8,001 - 12K
F Plates 12,001 - 16K
H Plates 16,001 - 26K
J Plates 26,001 - 28K

The plates and ranges max out at Z 77,001 - 80K. Some letters are skipped so they aren't mistaken when the plates are read at a distance.

Safety Lane inspections are done every six months unless the truck has DOT numbers and then it's annually instead.

Also a current medical card is required for the driver when the second division vehicle has 10,001 or greater GVW.

Just my .02¢


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## ZamboniHDB (May 8, 2004)

Brian in MO;1199370 said:


> Not to hijack a thread but I read you have a 10K trailer. I will be the first to say I don't know about IL laws, but in MO any trailer with a 10K gwr automatically requires a CDL . You might want to check on that since all states are supposed to have the same laws on CDL's. Not saying your wrong but here in MO you would be required to have a class A CDL to pull that trailer (I have been through this with a dot officer).


Correct me if I'm wrong, but 26,001 or heavier GVW requires a class B CDL in Illinois.

Trailer in tow at 10,001 or heavier requires a combination class A CDL in Illinois.

Of course there are other variations/combinations that would require someone to obtain a CDL, i.e. tanker over 1000 gallons, air brakes, 16 or greater passengers, etc.

Just my .02¢


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

CLASS A - This classification applies only to "combination" vehicles with a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) exceeding 26,000 pounds, provided the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed exceeds 10,000 pounds.

Takin from the Illinois DMV website. Key words are Exceed and Exceeding.


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## BDEMOTT (Oct 10, 2005)

KEC Maintaince;1199375 said:


> i know this might not help but ill say it any way on your smaller accounts couldnt you leave some bagged salt there and load up as needed. i dont know the size of the accounts something to think of.


I appreciate the input , but I have bid all the accounts with the notion that i will be spreading bulk salt. I might even lose money if I got to bagged.

Just want to say thanks for everyone that posted your opinions. I am worried about the stability of the truck and the wear and tear on the truck itself going from reverse to forward repeatedly with a load like that. I have subbed out what ever i cant do myself.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Getting fun now 



PerfectEarth;1199234 said:


> I've always been a stickler for adhering to GVWRs and all the rules... I don't see how it's worth it to beat up your trucks- or worse, risk an accident because you can't stop. In my first year out at night doing snow, I have been laughing at some of the 2500/250 trucks I've seen DRAGGING the rear bumper on the ground, loaded with salt beyond imagination. I don't even know how these guys steer. Good thing the roads are empty at night.
> 
> Going over a tiny bit, fine. We've all been there. We don't have scales at our shops. Going over DANGEROUSLY, that's stupid.


Were there sparks and stuff?


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## mike1316 (Sep 16, 2007)

We run 2 yd salter In 3 2500 gd and 2 in f250 never had a problem. Just take ur time and you'll be fine .


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

our 350 srw grossed 14K at the scales leaving with 2.23tons of salt in the back. it has timbrens on the back and you cant even tell. no comment whether this is right or wrong, just showing you how it looks with that load.


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## trqjnky (Nov 12, 2009)

ive got a 6 ft hiway sander, holds 1.3 yards. doesnt phase my 04 2500 dodge a bit. but honestly, 1.5 yards is probably the most i'd want on it.


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## jb1390 (Sep 23, 2008)

A little birdy told me that a 98 chevy 2500 with added suspension capability has grossed out at 12800 and didn't break anything or crash. The biggest risk is that-if there is an accident, you will likely be at fault if overloaded. Same as rolling slowly through a stop sign, or speeding, etc. Lots of people have done it, without a problem, but try to be safe about it. 

In CT, during the storms, the officers generally have other things to worry about. I wouldn't drive overloaded down 95 during rush hour after a storm is passed and traffic is back to normal. 

That being said-I personally have moved to straight salt instead of salt/sand to bring the overall weight of my truck back within reason. 

Your truck will handle the extra load just fine.


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## PLOWTRUCK (Sep 25, 2010)

Truck should handle it fine. My 2500 hd handles a pallet of stone(2500lbs) no problem.Figure the salter weighs 600-700 lbs with a ton of salt total weight is under 3000lbs.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

White Gardens;1199655 said:


> CLASS A - This classification applies only to "combination" vehicles with a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) exceeding 26,000 pounds, provided the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed exceeds 10,000 pounds.
> 
> Takin from the Illinois DMV website. Key words are Exceed and Exceeding.


We don't have a DMV, we have the SoS, since we're taking the "picky" path here, right?

Now, I will tell you the truth about the license issue. If the trailer exceeds 10K (yes, we agree on this) then you need a Class A CDL, period--only exception is if you are running RV plates And the towing vehicle must be inspected twice a year. (once annually if you display a USDOT #) Even a 1/2 ton pickup with a 10,001 trailer requires a Class A.

I have an issue with the fact that we don't have a flat-weight "G" plate, for 20K, but we have a mileage plate for it. With all the 19.5K GVWR trucks out there, it's just silly to have to run a 26K "H" plate on them (which is max for non-CDL as well as non-apportioned plates if you run interstate).

What the SoS says is great, but what the ISP says is what determines the ticket.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

On topic, a 2-yd spreader will rest in a modern 2500 just fine, although as has been mentioned you should add to the suspension a little. I am big fan of Timbrens, for price, ease of install, and reliability. They're just simple, and they work. 30 minutes and you're ready to go. Although the last set I installed were on an F-550, and they had the strangest brackets on them...so we didn't use them, and bolted the Timbrens right on. LOL.


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## swtiih (Nov 30, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1201991 said:


> We don't have a DMV, we have the SoS, since we're taking the "picky" path here, right?
> 
> Now, I will tell you the truth about the license issue. If the trailer exceeds 10K (yes, we agree on this) then you need a Class A CDL, period--only exception is if you are running RV plates And the towing vehicle must be inspected twice a year. (once annually if you display a USDOT #) Even a 1/2 ton pickup with a 10,001 trailer requires a Class A.
> 
> ...


Yea kinda like 8 hotdogs buns to a pack & 10 hotdogs to a pack. 1 guy doesn't care about the other. The consumer is the guy who has to deal with it.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Pretty much. But in this case you can a ticket for two illegal buns.

Wait a second...

:laughing:


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## TSherman (Dec 4, 2009)

Timbrens are not suspension parts, they are merely for trailer leveling. If you have to have Timbrens, DO THE SUSPENSION WORK! That being said, GVWR are there for a reason, if it was my family you killed your sentance would be swift and just! These geniuses are the reason cops always look at landscapers. Buy the right equipment for the job. If you need 2 tons of salt, get yourself a 2 ton dump truck! Its really very easy. 

I will point out violations to officers I know on a regular basis. I wish they would take the equipment like drug seizures. This should be a crime, punishable by imprisonment. If you are over by 100 pounds....fine. But over a ton? You deserve long sessions in the shower room!


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

FYI, the combination I was referring to did not exceed the combined axle weight rating of the vehicle (true gross), nor the registered weight.

Keep in mind, you're only talking a ton here--not much, in the big picture. Certainly not enough to warrant a "long session in the shower room". Although, I must wonder what train of thought got you to that point. Odd conclusion.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

TSherman;1202583 said:


> Timbrens are not suspension parts, they are merely for trailer leveling. If you have to have Timbrens, DO THE SUSPENSION WORK...


That's interesting. They are usually bolted to the suspension


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## TSherman (Dec 4, 2009)

2COR517;1202684 said:


> That's interesting. They are usually bolted to the suspension


actually bolted above the suspension to not allow total compression of the suspension. :salute:


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

That's funny. Every installation I have seen, they were bolted UNDER the suspension. In place of the bumpstop.....


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

They bolt to the FRAME, not the suspension...hello???

:laughing:


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## TSherman (Dec 4, 2009)

Sometimes I am just scared to know these people operate equipment on the roads. Terrified even!


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## NPMinc (Nov 29, 2010)

TSherman;1202583 said:


> I will point out violations to officers I know on a regular basis. I wish they would take the equipment like drug seizures. This should be a crime, punishable by imprisonment. If you are over by 100 pounds....fine. But over a ton? You deserve long sessions in the shower room!


So you are the self appointed DOT police? Bet your local competetion just loves you and would jump at the chance to help you out should the need arise!

I will agree with ya however that many people overmax thier trucks to a point they are unsafe though. Also agree that, and this has been beaten to death on here, that Timbrens are simply devices that stop sag, they do nothing to increase the safe weight carrying capacity of a vehicle nor increase the GVWR, regardless of what many people believe. Believe someone here in another post called them a "band-aid"


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Maybe Illinois laws are different, but I thought DOT is federal, meaning everyone is the same state to state, although maybe states can add their own rules on top of that.

In MI, Class A CDL is not needed to tow a 14,000# trailer unless the combined weight is over 26,000.

My one ton diesel and the 14,000# trailer total out at 25,500 or something like that - per the State Patrol Lt in charge of the State commercial vehicle enforcement, no CDL needed, just a chauffer license. 

We made a sizable donation to the city of Wyoming over here so I called the State Patrol and asked if they'd come down and look at all our trucks and trailers and tell us what we needed. While I didn't want to here what he was saying, he was a great guy to work with and answered every question we could possibly have and pointed out a few other issues.

IMHO, when it comes to DOT/State stuff, don't take my word or anyone elses for that matter - ask the people that enforce the laws. There is so much hearsay especially with the internet and the fines involved are larger than life, it's not worth a mistake.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Precisely. I have the "Senior Truck Enforcement" Trooper's direct line programmed into my phone, as well as my local FMCSA compliance officer. If I have a question, I get an _answer._ I also carry a few select copies of pertinent statues that local police like to they actually _know_, when in reality they don't.

We haven't hadn't chauffeur's licenses here for many, many years--it's A/B/C/D, and you can have a non-CDL "C". But the 10K+ trailer thing is for real, and it's just one more reason why IL, quite frankly, sucks.

"DOT" is a highly misconstrued term. It really depends on your operation, more specifically if you are *intra*state or *inter*state. FMCSA (the "DOT" that everyone thinks of) only applies to *inter*state _carriers_. The vast majority of snow removal outfits would not likely be classified as carriers, I imagine--because you are hauling your own equipment/goods in your normal course of business. You aren't generally hauling stuff "for hire". If you move machines for a contractor, then you would be classified as a carrier. You would need, at the very least, operating authority from your home jurisdiction (state), and if you cross state lines, you'll need federal authority (aka: ICC #, not the same as a DOT #). It can get a little confusing...

As far as weights/lengths/etc, that is mostly a state issue--what works in IL, won't work in FL, and vice versa. What works in MI, won't work pretty much anywhere contiguous to MI. It would be _far_ too easy to adopt a unified standard that includes all weights & configurations.

On a side note, there is a push to increase the maximum truck weights (nationwide) from 80K on five axles to 97K on six axles, and possible 88K on five. It pains me to say that the feds might be catching on to what the rest of the world already knows (hell, half of their own states, LOL).


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Westhardt Corp.;1201991 said:


> If the trailer exceeds 10K (yes, we agree on this) then you need a Class A CDL, period-- Even a 1/2 ton pickup with a 10,001 trailer requires a Class A.




No. No. No. No.


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## TSherman (Dec 4, 2009)

NPMinc;1203259 said:


> So you are the self appointed DOT police? Bet your local competetion just loves you and would jump at the chance to help you out should the need arise!
> 
> I will agree with ya however that many people overmax thier trucks to a point they are unsafe though. Also agree that, and this has been beaten to death on here, that Timbrens are simply devices that stop sag, they do nothing to increase the safe weight carrying capacity of a vehicle nor increase the GVWR, regardless of what many people believe. Believe someone here in another post called them a "band-aid"


I am certainly not the self appointed DOT police, but a guy with a grossly overloaded vehicle is no different than waving a loaded gun out the window. Its not merely illegel (I could really care less about laws) its unsafe for my family, my crews and myself to be on the road with them. I have plenty of friends in the business that operate safe and legal to call on if need be. If the need would arise that I would need "help" I would never take it from someone in the business of grossly cutting corners.

I have known many of the traffic enforcement cops around here for years. Because of this I extend the professional courtesy to operate my trucks within the guidelines specified by the laws. I operate my trucks within the limits of the laws to keep my company name out of the news for unsafe vehicles in accidents, and I operate within the limits of the law to do the right thing. Maybe some people can sleep fine knowing the shaved hours off their day running heavy, but I would not be able to live with myself if I ended up killing someone over a few extra dollars. Especially in bad weather where its hard enough to operate safely.

Break the rules, and I will call it in. I am not talking about a couple extra pounds, but nearly doubling your weight....don't drive near me. Its bad for the image of all of us too!


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

snocrete;1199531 said:


> I'm picturing cretebaby just rubbing his hands together with a big grin on his face right now.


LOL. Something tells me you know better than what has been stated.

I finally had time to read the whole thread.



Brian in MO;1199370 said:


> Not to hijack a thread but I read you have a 10K trailer. I will be the first to say I don't know about IL laws, but in MO any trailer with a 10K gwr automatically requires a CDL . You might want to check on that since all states are supposed to have the same laws on CDL's. Not saying your wrong but here in MO you would be required to have a class A CDL to pull that trailer (I have been through this with a dot officer).


MO has the same requirements as the Feds so that isn't true.



ZamboniHDB;1199636 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but 26,001 or heavier GVW requires a class B CDL in Illinois.
> 
> Trailer in tow at 10,001 or heavier requires a combination class A CDL in Illinois.
> 
> ...


Air brakes don't require a CDL nor does a tank over 1000 gal.



White Gardens;1199655 said:


> CLASS A - This classification applies only to "combination" vehicles with a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) exceeding 26,000 pounds, provided the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the vehicle being towed exceeds 10,000 pounds.
> 
> Takin from the Illinois DMV website. Key words are Exceed and Exceeding.


Key word is PROVIDED.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

cretebaby;1204017 said:


> No. No. No. No.


Yes. No. Kinda. Sorta. (had to look it up, as the requirements have changed a little, rendering my statements less true than they were a couple years ago.  )

http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/drivers_license/il_license_class.html

Class D is a grey area. Based on the actual verbage, you could theoretically haul a 14K trailer with a 12K (F) plated dually. So no, the 1/2 ton example would not work as I stated it. An 8,800# GVW 2500 could conceivably tow a max of 17,200#, based on how they state it (provided it was all plated correctly, inspected, etc) The ISP gets guys here on it all the time--4500s/450s (17,500 GVWR) towing skidsteers or compact excavators, rollers, etc (10K plus, easy)).

Class C mimics this, allowing 26K GVW towing an either/or for a 10K max trailer _or_ 26K GCWR with a 10K+ trailer and light enough tow vehicle to make it under said 26K GCWR.

Once you get to Class B (26K+), you are limited to a 10K trailer (which is a little odd, given the latitude of C & D) Once you eclipse 10K (w/26K+ tow veh), it's Class A. *But*, theoretically if you run under 26K tow vehicle, then the trailer may take the balance of a 26K GCWR--just like Class C.

In short, if you exceed 26K GCWR (note, no mention of _actual weight_), and your trailer exceeds 10K, then you need a Class A.

Stupid Illinois.


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## TSherman (Dec 4, 2009)

Pennsylvania is so much easier. We have Class A (truck and trailer), Class B over 26000 (no trailer over 10k) and class C which is most of the motoring public. To operate between 17000 and 26000 you need a med card in addition to your class C. You can move a heavier trailer than 10,000 pounds...but it gets hards hard to explain to most people...and easier to just get a class A CDL.


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## suzuki0702 (Apr 6, 2008)

if your plowing and not running commerical plates, you should be shot. and H rated tires, c'mon man


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

Just watch the Sheriffs commercial guys they know it a big ticket if your loaded & there ooking for the easy ticket. We started out in bulk with our 2500hd & a 1 3/4 yd Smith. They pulled my brother over, he had wings on the V blade, so they got us over width (9-2 limit is 8-6), luckily spreader was empty. Im sure they wanted the overweight @ $ 1/lb its a big fine. Personally I wouldnt hesitate to run the spreader in the truck again, it handled it fine, we almost never plowed loaded though loaded after the plowing was completed then started salting. I personally dont like salt in my hopper any longer than needed I ve chiseled out too many loads & all the back & forth tends to settle the salt as well..


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## wenzelosllc (Dec 7, 2009)

I didn't notice if someone mentioned this but if the site are close enough together perhaps you could store salt at one site and just go back there to load up. Might be shorter than going the distance to the yard.


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## ZamboniHDB (May 8, 2004)

cretebaby;1204100 said:


> Air brakes don't require a CDL nor does a tank over 1000 gal.


Like I said in my original post, there are other variations/combinations that would require someone to obtain a CDL. You can't get any endorsements without a CDL.

T - Double/triple trailers

P - Passenger carrying vehicles

N - Tank Vehicles

H - Any vehicle carrying hazardous materials which requires placarding

X - Combination tank vehicle and hazardous materials endorsement

C - Charter Bus

S - School bus

Tank endorsement does not include portable tanks less than 1000 gallons, however if any tank is permanently or temporarily attached to the vehicle you'll need it as well.

If you have an L restriction you cannot drive a commercial vehicle with air brakes.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

cretebaby;1204100 said:


> ZamboniHDB;1199636 said:
> 
> 
> > Of course there are other variations/combinations that would require someone to obtain a CDL, i.e. tanker over 1000 gallons, air brakes, 16 or greater passengers, etc.
> ...


Like I said. Air brakes DON'T require a CDL.



ZamboniHDB;1205417 said:


> Like I said in my original post, there are other variations/combinations that would require someone to obtain a CDL. You can't get any endorsements without a CDL.
> 
> T - Double/triple trailers
> 
> ...


Tanks doesn't require an endorsement unless the truck requires a CDL anyway. You can have a 2k gallon tank with out endorsement or CDL if the truck is under 26k GVWR. (and not hauling HazMat).

You only need an endorsement if you need a CDL.


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## spaceman12321 (Dec 3, 2007)

Unfortuately because of the DOT pricks I have been buying 3/4 ton trucks instead of larger trucks because they are not subject to DOT inspections if rated under 10k gvwr. I'm not talking about trucks that I put 15,000lbs on, I just mean trucks that are maxed that I would otherwise overbuy for.

I get tired of getting tickets for things like a crack in the bottom of the windshield, a fire extinguisher not mounted, or a license plate light out, meanwhile not inspecting brakes etc because they are too lazy to crawl under a truck.


It is a safety inspection, if your concern is with safety scale my trucks, inspect the tires, load securement etc. and write me for a real safety issue. Unfortunately some (not all) of the DOT inspectors are pricks, but a sufficient number of them to make me avoid them and cities are certifying them because it is a revenue source, not because they are concerned with safety.


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## TSherman (Dec 4, 2009)

DOT guys were abused children!


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

You should try our "Jesse Whites" (aka: Secretary of State Police). They generally have an attitude, and they are the ones who prompted me to become well-versed on the applicable laws. Nothing brings a smile like out-cop'ing a cop.

:laughing:


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## bigal426 (Jan 16, 2011)

If you have a 3/4 ton truck, an insert spreader, and a 8.5' plow on the front and are loaded with 2 yards/ton of salt, then that truck will weigh around 13,500 lbs. What is the GVW of the truck? Weights and measures in Michigan will ticket that truck @ $1.00 a pound for each pound over weight from the marked GVW on the door sticker. Sure the truck, with bags or Timbrens will will haul the load, but you are still over weight. Does your local police or Weights and Measures patrol the area? You make the call, as you are over weight, plain and simple, and are subject to a fine. That would be $3,000+ in Michigan.


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Believe it or not, the trucks were 7,500# dressed (w/plow & SnowEx 8500). I actually took one to a CAT scale some 20 miles away from the yard to make sure. They were D plated (10K), so they ended up about a ton and a half-ish over plate, less if we dropped the blade (which we occasionally did). I pushed for F plates (16K), but the guys who owned them didn't want to spend the extra money on plating. Needless to say, they would have wished they had if we got scaled. *Now, before everyone gets riled up*, it's important to know that the 2500HD GMs we had (RC/LB) sported the exact same brake systems that their big brother 3500s had--the ones who carried an 11,500 GVWR. They had no problems stopping whatsoever. I wouldn't be so sure with an older truck, as the newer brakes are significantly better than previous generations. Having owned several 90's era GM trucks. I know their brakes were <ahem> _somewhat lacking in performance_.

NOW, that having been said, I already have a truck spec worked out if I decide to re-enter the removal field, and I'll give a hint....._4500_.


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## dirtybird (Jul 18, 2010)

White Gardens;1199182 said:


> Yep, sure have had it weighed, and I know my legal limitations.
> 
> 2268 is my FAWR. With a gas engine being lighter than a diesel block, I've never even blinked an eye about my weight with my plow on.
> 
> ...


I agree with the 3/4 ton thing. 1 ton, preferably a dually is the minimum I'd do for a 1.5-2 yard box. It's a bit over even the 1 ton's capacity but the the drw handles it fine. As for the the plates issue. A lot of confusion about what is required. When I started out and tried to navigate the mess of state and federal laws I went by the book. I quickly realized it would never work. In MD commercial tags are not required for under 26,000# or towing under 10,000#. Most if not all MDOT will write tickets and try to apply laws designed for transport carriers to you but they are wrong and we have beaten almost every ticket. But if you get commercial tags and put a DOT number on the side of your 3/4 or 1 ton truck God help you cause you might as well put a bullseye on it. They don't care about what the law is or about safety they care about generating revenue.. period. Do you know what the build difference is between Dodge 4500 and 5500 trucks that enables the higher GVW? None, the drive train is upgraded a bit to handle the weight but structurally it's the same truck. But the "legal" GVW is 4,000# pounds higher. Same front and rear axle and ratings. Been told many if not all Ford 450 vs 550 builds are the same. So if you want to feel good about paying a bit extra to the man, have at it. But the idea that you are more safe because of a piece of paper doesn't hold water. Again I agree about the 3/4 ton guys with the spreader almost touching the ground with 4300# of salt plus spreader weight plus the plow, but plate GVW ratings do not = real world carry capacity.


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## second income (Sep 19, 2010)

In ref to commercial tags

In jersey you only need commercial tags on a pick up if you have a name on vehicle, I have commercial insurance but reg tags since the truck I use is not part of the fleet. 100 percent legal


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## Westhardt Corp. (Dec 13, 2009)

Not sure how I missed this...



White Gardens;1199182 said:


> The state of Illinois will allow plates on a truck to be no more than 1000lbs over the manufacture GVWR. I have a truck that is 15k for the GVWR so they give me plates that are that are for 16k.


Two words on this---"dead" and "wrong". You can plate it for whatever you want--I know plenty of guys who run "H" plates on their 2500/3500 trucks, to cover an "ST" plated trailer (semi-trailer, permanent, trailer weight must be covered by power unit plate). I know a few that run an "H" to avoid fines, because they run stupid heavy and have gotten caught. Nothing mentioned about the factory GVWR during the stops--just the plate and the overweight. (NOT condoning it, just making a point). I have often considered plating my DD 2500 with an "H", to cover a few special trailers that I haul periodically, that are plated with Canadian Semi-Trailer plates.

In IL, they will take your money, no matter how ridiculously you want to spend it.


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