# Liabilitys



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

I have a 3 mill. general liability policy for my excavating and paving. When I decided to do some small commercial snow jobs I had to add completed snow plow operations to my policy and they won't let me do supermarkets where there is a lot of traffic.

I noticed some of the landscape guys do not have this completed snow operations added and are still getting work without workman's comp to. How do these guys get away with this.


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Maybe the work they're getting doesn't ask for proof of it.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mr.Markus;2034559 said:


> Maybe the work they're getting doesn't ask for proof of it.


I was informed by my Commercial insurance agent without it I would not be covered for a incident without adding this to my policy. What would a guy do without it. Pay cash for any damage?


----------



## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

How do you know the other company doesn't have the proper insurance's?


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jhall22guitar;2034569 said:


> How do you know the other company doesn't have the proper insurance's?


Because last year I was high on a job compared to the other guy and the Manager wanted to know why, I asked her if he had snow operations added to his policy. She showed me his binder he had 1 mill. and no snow operations added. Not to mention no workman's comp.

I explained to her she would be responsible for any injuries and would have to run it on her WC in NY anyways. She did not understand about she would not be covered for damages without this addition to policy. She thinks the insurance on his truck will cover any damages. Maybe it will mine won't.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Partly right, If your plowing and hit something the truck insurance will cover it. Liability is more for slip and falls.


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

If he is/was a 1 man show he could operate as an independent operator under WC and simply not pay or qualify for benefits under any anybodys WC.
Release forms are available to Independent Operators and the companies they work for.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

*liabiities*



Mr.Markus;2034590 said:


> If he is/was a 1 man show he could operate as an independent operator under WC and simply not pay or qualify for benefits under any anybodys WC.
> Release forms are available to Independent Operators and the companies they work for.


I see what your saying and understand. He was not a one man show. He had a guy cleaning sidewalks. They are in the city right of way. I know I have coffee there every morning.


----------



## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Maybe his sidewalk guy is a sub contractor, or a part business owner?


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

SnoFarmer;2034609 said:


> Maybe his sidewalk guy is a sub contractor, or a part business owner?


This is not the case. He picks him up when he needs him at my cousins bar where he rents a room upstairs. He don't work he's disabled for some reason and receives very little money monthly.


----------



## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I found the best advice to be worry about what you are doing, not what the other guy "might" be doing.


----------



## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Mr.Markus;2034620 said:


> I found the best advice to be worry about what you are doing, not what the other guy "might" be doing.


X2! There will always be that "other guy" who for whatever reason doesn't have proper insurance. Just sell your client on how YOU are properly covered and if something were to happen with the other he could come after them.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mr.Markus;2034620 said:


> I found the best advice to be worry about what you are doing, not what the other guy "might" be doing.


I agree! But if money is going out and it don't need to I would like to be aware of it.

I asked a simple ?. I was hoping I could get a simple answer. So far all I got is how do I know this and how do I know that. This is a small city. If your plowing snow I know who you are and they know who I am. No negativity intended.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction;2034622 said:


> X2! There will always be that "other guy" who for whatever reason doesn't have proper insurance. Just sell your client on how YOU are properly covered and if something were to happen with the other he could come after them.


Thanks, I did that and explained it in a upper post. It did not work. I will just worry about myself. Thanks to all you Guys.


----------



## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

FredG;2034636 said:


> Thanks, I did that and explained it in a upper post. It did not work. I will just worry about myself. Thanks to all you Guys.


Sorry Fred, I read your post and since I'm NOT the guy without insurance maybe I should have not answered. I assumed it was more of a post complaining about those guys, instead of asking a question, I apologize. You know what they say about assuming. Try asking your insurance agent if you need everything you have, and maybe get another quote from a new ins. company and ask that agent for a second opinion. I know I bid (not snow removal) against idiots people find on craigslist and they don't understand why I'm so much more. Sometimes I can sell myself out of it, other times I can't. Good luck


----------



## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

It all depends on how you structure your company and what your state allows.

Are you hiring employees or sub-contractors?

They are sub-contractors if they are using their own equipment, paying their own costs etc... you can pay them hourly, but it is better to pay them by the job or site whether they plow or clear sidewalks.
You give them a list of sites to plow and they decide the best way depending on the storm, they are not under your direction.

Employees are paid hourly, you supply everything to them needed for the job.
They are under your direction, you tell them where to go what to plow, etc...

OHSA Logs are not needed if you have 10 or less employees or if you subcontract out -(so you can have 25 guys plowing in their own trucks and not have to maintain OHSA logs.)

Workmans comp. 
As a single operator under a LLC you do not need Workmans comp. 
If you have employees even 1 you do need it.

General liability insurance, covers slips and falls.

Your truck insurance covers any type of accident -(you hit a car with your plow, take out a curb, etc...) 
But make sure you are covered while plowing as some truck insurance does not cover it.

All of the above is Good for CT. 

Other states you need to look it up to make sure.

I believe the OSHA is every state as it is under federal guidelines.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

There are lots of ways to fly under the radar. If the other guy is somewhat a smaller company he can be paying the employee cash in which this makes sense seeing the employee as you said is on some sort of disability. If he does not collect a pay check and he gets hurt there is no way to track him as an employee so he cannot collect any workers comp. If who ever is paying his current disability catches him working he could be in trouble.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMHConstruction;2034667 said:


> Sorry Fred, I read your post and since I'm NOT the guy without insurance maybe I should have not answered. I assumed it was more of a post complaining about those guys, instead of asking a question, I apologize. You know what they say about assuming. Try asking your insurance agent if you need everything you have, and maybe get another quote from a new ins. company and ask that agent for a second opinion. I know I bid (not snow removal) against idiots people find on craigslist and they don't understand why I'm so much more. Sometimes I can sell myself out of it, other times I can't. Good luck


No need to be sorry, I'm cool. Thanks for your response.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2034895 said:


> There are lots of ways to fly under the radar. If the other guy is somewhat a smaller company he can be paying the employee cash in which this makes sense seeing the employee as you said is on some sort of disability. If he does not collect a pay check and he gets hurt there is no way to track him as an employee so he cannot collect any workers comp. If who ever is paying his current disability catches him working he could be in trouble.


Disability allows him to make a small amount of money. He was working for me for a little while. I would not pay him cash and he had to quit. In NY working where there is any city, county, state or federal funds involved you have to have certified pay roll to make sure your employee's are getting prevailing wage. You won't be on the job long before a inspector comes around and gets the name of your help.This rate is based on union wages. If I was doing private work I probably would of gave him cash for a little while. Around here this is becoming a dangerous game.


----------



## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

FredG;2035147 said:


> Disability allows him to make a small amount of money. He was working for me for a little while. I would not pay him cash and he had to quit. In NY working where there is any city, county, state or federal funds involved you have to have certified pay roll to make sure your employee's are getting prevailing wage. You won't be on the job long before a inspector comes around and gets the name of your help.This rate is based on union wages. If I was doing private work I probably would of gave him cash for a little while. Around here this is becoming a dangerous game.


It sounds like that is whats happening if he quit working for you because you wouldnt pay him cash.

Let me know how you make out on the bid for Zotos and the City sidewalks.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape;2035150 said:


> It sounds like that is whats happening if he quit working for you because you wouldnt pay him cash.
> 
> Let me know how you make out on the bid for Zotos and the City sidewalks.


I will be sure to do that. I'm going to talk to the city manager today. The bid has not come out yet. Hoping this week.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Anybody on disability or unemployment they got $500.00 for who ever snitches on him. Which is below the belt to me. This is why I say it's dangerous. Not just for the employee for the company to. I got operators that get laid off for the winter. If you need them for snow or water lines 1 or 2 days you know stuff you can do in the winter months. They are all scared and I don't blame them. They will only go certain places and come all disguised where I would not even know who they are.:laughing:

The good thing is nobody snitches on anybody that I heard of and in this city you would hear. This fella only quit me because he was close to his limit which don't take long at prevailing wage.


----------



## jhall22guitar (Dec 11, 2011)

I have a friend who's brother gets paid thousands of dollars to check on employee's that are "disabled" his bonus checks if he is able to find proof the person is faking it are $1000+ most times.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jhall22guitar;2035166 said:


> I have a friend who's brother gets paid thousands of dollars to check on employee's that are "disabled" his bonus checks if he is able to find proof the person is faking it are $1000+ most times.


Yes it is dangerous.


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

FredG;2034577 said:


> Because last year I was high on a job compared to the other guy and the Manager wanted to know why, I asked her if he had snow operations added to his policy. She showed me his binder he had 1 mill. and no snow operations added. Not to mention no workman's comp.
> 
> I explained to her she would be responsible for any injuries and would have to run it on her WC in NY anyways. She did not understand about she would not be covered for damages without this addition to policy. She thinks the insurance on his truck will cover any damages. Maybe it will mine won't.


How would the customer know from an insurance certificate what was included


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2039475 said:


> How would the customer know from an insurance certificate what was included


In this state the insurance binder shows everything. They come from your agent.


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

FredG;2039495 said:


> In this state the insurance binder shows everything. They come from your agent.


Do you have a copy of one? I'm curious to see the difference


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

More then likely,its a certificate of liability listing snowplowing.


----------



## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

grandview;2039519 said:


> More then likely,its a certificate of liability listing snowplowing.


I have never seen a COI that lists specific operations, that's why I am curious. Though I am not in the insurance biz, nor do I hire a lot of subs to see many certificates.


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JimMarshall;2039498 said:


> Do you have a copy of one? I'm curious to see the difference


Its accord form, It list the amount of GL and WC and you should have completed snow operations added to your GL. These forms only work on private work. If your working for a City you have to have proof right from WC and your insurance company.

My daughter is pregnant and not in the office much. When she comes in I will get her to post the form here. I don't know how to scan and cut and paste and all that stuff to post. I guess I'm a little behind the times with computers.


----------



## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

The Acord COI is only designed to show proof of insurance. It should not be used to evidence endorsements, exclusions, or make coverage determinations. The problem in your case is that the other guy might have cheap, low quality insurance that does not cover snow removal and the manager has no way of knowing that critical piece because it would not be indicated on the COI. They can request the language on the certificate but there are new laws recently inacted (in NY) that prohibit that. The manager should be asking her insurance agent if the carrier indicated on the COI includes snow removal coverage. Good insurance agents know the good from the bad and would be able to assist her "weeding things out". 
Ben/Insurance


----------



## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ben/Insurance;2039608 said:


> The Acord COI is only designed to show proof of insurance. It should not be used to evidence endorsements, exclusions, or make coverage determinations. The problem in your case is that the other guy might have cheap, low quality insurance that does not cover snow removal and the manager has no way of knowing that critical piece because it would not be indicated on the COI. They can request the language on the certificate but there are new laws recently inacted (in NY) that prohibit that. The manager should be asking her insurance agent if the carrier indicated on the COI includes snow removal coverage. Good insurance agents know the good from the bad and would be able to assist her "weeding things out".
> Ben/Insurance


Exactly, And he does have economy GL with no Completed snow operation or WC. I agree on the accord form. My proof of insurance comes directly from carrier WC has well. With completed snow operation added to policy. Some private still take the accord form. Some clients don't care the low bid is it.


----------

