# Equipment Damage from poorly maintained lot



## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

This is kind of along the lines of a broken snowblower from a water shutoff but different. 

You bid a lot, you see potholes or broken asphalt. Maybe you factor it in, maybe you don't. Your crews plow around it the first year. Year number 2 the crater is still there. 

Do you approach the customer about their lack of lot maintenance? Has anyone put something in their contract about damage to plowing due to lack of lot maintenance? 

Nothing has happened yet, just a thought I had. We have one account that you could lose a Volkswagen in, and it's been there for 2 seasons now. It's a tight lot and right in front of their loading docks, but it's ridiculous that they won't fix it. It isn't like we can cone it off either because of its location. I'm sure the truck drivers all love it as well. 

Seems like there's a few accounts that are deferring pavement maintenance for far longer than they should.


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## seville009 (Sep 9, 2002)

From a practical business standpoint, if you sign a contract with them, you should attach to the contract pictures of the premises to show the “as is” conditions not only for your protection, but also to show (and state explicitly in the contract) areas that won’t be serviced due to potential equipment damage 

no different really than refusing a job that has unsafe conditions 


Plus - if a client isn’t willing to pay to maintain their property, they are unlikely to pay for equipment repairs (or maybe even for your services)


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Unfortunately I think your options are limited. Like stated, they probably could care less that it negatively impacts you.
Best case...document, try to price accordingly, and the squeaky wheel usually gets the grease.


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

You should see my parking lot. I don't know how my garbage plow hasn't broke yet. I generally cannot even put the plow on the ground, the entire thing is potholes and cracks. I charged accordingly to maintain this lot and have to use more salt than I like, but it's still going to be quite profitable.

In lawncare, I do not charge the customer if I run over something in their yard. I typically make a point to do a very good walk through prior to servicing, just as I do with parking lots. With a crew it's different, because you have to mark and notify all your workers. for me, I just remember the bad spots and lift the plow when i get to them but it would be much better if the lot was in good shape and i could plow it clean. some of those chunks are so loose when you walk on them they move, water sits under there and it's just a mess. OH well.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Can you dump road gravel in there, pack it with the truck tires to make it somewhat better? - sneak it in the bill as long as it's not seasonal....


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

I'm surprised the owners of the lot don't do the same, I have thought about sending them an estimate for 100 bags of road pack to fix some of these massive holes. 

will make it hard to plow, but like i i said i just have to keep the plow off the ground a bit and throw more salt than what's needed.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Last year i did a seniors home that put a scratch coat of pavement down just as the snow flew. It stayed that way until the spring.
All the drains, manholes, and seams were 2 inches higher than the pavement. They attempted to use pot hole filler to slope it up at each so the plow wouldnt catch it but the plow just ripped it out. It was a fantastic mess come the spring, added quite some time to my plowing but no employees so no damage to my stuff, just some massive cursing on some hard trips.
I do have a clause for ripping up lots but nothing really that protects my stuff.
Something to the effect of:
"Mr. Markus assumes no responsibility for accidents that occur on lots we have serviced, irregularities in drainage, design, or maintenance of lot material (pavement, concrete, gravel, etc.) ."

I did tear the hinge on my plow appart one year on a patch, but i also tore the patch right out and landed it on their lawn. I ate the cost of the repair but didnt repair the bad patch, i documented it and sent them a picture of my blade and we called it even.


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

What do you guys do when you know it's a rough lot. do you still scrape with the plow all the way down? example: the photos i posted above. I personally dont' feel comfortable having the plow all the way down in those areas so i keep it a cuople inches high.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mr.Markus said:


> Last year i did a seniors home that put a scratch coat of pavement down just as the snow flew. It stayed that way until the spring.
> All the drains, manholes, and seams were 2 inches higher than the pavement. They attempted to use pot hole filler to slope it up at each so the plow wouldnt catch it but the plow just ripped it out. It was a fantastic mess come the spring, added quite some time to my plowing but no employees so no damage to my stuff, just some massive cursing on some hard trips.
> I do have a clause for ripping up lots but nothing really that protects my stuff.
> Something to the effect of:
> Mr. Markus assumes no responsibility for accidents that occur on lots we have serviced, irregularities in drainage, design, or maintenance of lot material (pavement, concrete, gravel, etc.) . I did tear the hinge on my plow appart one year on a patch, but i also tore the patch right out and landed it on their lawn. I ate the cost of the repair but didnt repair the bad patch, i documented it and sent them a picture of my blade and we called it even.


What! You didn't then charge them to clean the asphalt out of the lawn...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I have a clause as well for damaging concrete or asphalt...once ripped out an entire speed bump, didn't break the plow. 

Way back I broke 3 of 4 motor mounts on a manhole that had the same thing done to it, no top coat of asphalt so they paved up to it.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Ajlawn1 said:


> What! You didn't then charge them to clean the asphalt out of the lawn...


I don't, that's the lawn-jockeys job.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I have a clause as well for damaging concrete or asphalt...once ripped out an entire speed bump, didn't break the plow.
> 
> Way back I broke 3 of 4 motor mounts on a manhole that had the same thing done to it, no top coat of asphalt so they paved up to it.


Manholes have motor mounts? Who knew...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Ajlawn1 said:


> Manholes have motor mounts? Who knew...


I did...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I did...


I know... I said that...


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Millings to fill the hole, cold patch on top to hold it in place.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BossPlow2010 said:


> Millings to fill the hole, cold patch on top to hold it in place.


I'm not an asphalt monkey like some guy in South Bent.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I'm not an asphalt monkey like some guy in South Bent.


Hmm, 
Fill it with snow instead?
It snowz every day there, shouldn't be difficult...


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

I had a clause on one: its a small concrete drive, which at one time was heated. At some point in history they stopped heating it, but didn't blow out the lines and its all cracked. Also, copper pipes randomly appear. I've hooked them with the jeep plow and they flip up and I have to break them off flush. I was mostly concerned about puncturing a tire. 
I gave the owner an ultimatum; replace the drive, or pay for any and all damage to equipment.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Has anyone put something in their contract about damage to plowing due to lack of lot maintenance?


I know you're new at this, so I don't mind sharing. I use this language in our contracts...

Client understands that plowing involves pushing a steel cutting edge with trucks, tractors and loaders over the surface of the pavement. We will not be responsible for any damage to obstacles that protrude from the surface of the pavement, or to pavement that is deteriorated, weakened, defective, heaved from frost or installed improperly. These are considered hazards that can harm our workers and equipment. We will also not be responsible for damages to asphalt speed bumps and/or asphalt curbing due to its fragility.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> I know you're new at this, so I don't mind sharing. I use this language in our contracts...
> 
> Client understands that plowing involves pushing a steel cutting edge with trucks, tractors and loaders over the surface of the pavement. We will not be responsible for any damage to obstacles that protrude from the surface of the pavement, or to pavement that is deteriorated, weakened, defective, heaved from frost or installed improperly. These are considered hazards that can harm our workers and equipment. We will also not be responsible for damages to asphalt speed bumps and/or asphalt curbing due to its fragility.


I was referring to damage to MY equipment due to lack of them keeping their lot in good repair.


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## cjames808 (Dec 18, 2015)

Oh I remove speed bumps for no charge. Jk we have a lot where they keep telling me they are getting new pavement every year. We clean up all the chunks in spring. Down to 1/2 speed bump from 4 over 5 years. 

Also Had a concrete pad appear in a gravel lot 3-4” tall. Bent me plow bumper/frame a bit Switched from per push to hourly with bucket machine only. And we be reel careful by the suspect area now.


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

aren't your speedbumps marked or why aren't you guys pulling the plow up over them? wonder if my setup is different for some reason but i can roll over speed bumps or pavement bumpbs and cracks and chunks fairly easily without destroying something. the problem is knowing it's there.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was referring to damage to MY equipment due to lack of them keeping their lot in good repair.


You can always try to write in something to that affect. Might me a tough go to hold your client responsible for something like that. We would (along with several subs) get flat tires left and right servicing a large auto plant. There were areas constantly littered with small scraps and shards of steel. They had a truck with a large magnet mounted on the front of it in the effort to get rid of the hazard. They would not entertain the idea of reimbursing us for this cost.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> You can always try to write in something to that affect. Might me a tough go to hold your client responsible for something like that. We would (along with several subs) get flat tires left and right servicing a large auto plant. There were areas constantly littered with small scraps and shards of steel. They had a truck with a large magnet mounted on the front of it in the effort to get rid of the hazard. They would not entertain the idea of reimbursing us for this cost.


Thanks, I was hoping you would give your $.02.

Like I said, nothing has happened yet and hopefully it stays that way. Just curious though as some customers seem to want to cheap out on asphalt maintenance. Probably a good way to lose a customer as well.


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## gcbailey (Jan 26, 2014)

Honestly I don't think there's much that can be done about it. I've talked to my lawyer about it before in having something wrote up and he said it's basically like holding a client responsible for getting a flat tire mowing. 

His suggestion was/is.... Before plow season begins take photos, have stuff in writing, etc... that is discussed with the client on potential issues with their lot. Have your "CYA" and let them know what will or won't be done and have signatures in case any of their stuff gets torn up pretty bad.

As far as their property tearing up your equipment if it came down to it you are basically performing an "at will" service and no one is forcing you therefore not much leg to stand on, according to my lawyer..... Unless you can get it in writing that they will be liable for equipment, THEN it's a matter of documenting and proving that it happened at XXXX company property.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

It must be nice to only plow smooth, seamless pavement.

I guess that’s the luxuries of plowing in the big city.

The condition of the shut off standpipe should’ve been noted when the parking lot was inspected prior to bid or when it was staked,,, out.

 ITs he plow-Jackie’s responsibility to know where there plowing .
Jmo


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## SilverPine (Dec 7, 2018)

We have a building that had a large fire. The next winter, their already terrible parking lot got alot worse. There was alot of sinking, especially by the drains. The said they would be re-paving in the next year or two, obviously that wasnt going to help me for that winter. They ended up signing an amended contracted stating they wouldnt hold me liable for any areas that were "uneven", which was pretty much the whole property. I ended up leaving the blade an inch or so up and plowed like that.

Equipment damage aside.. how can you be liable for slip and falls in a parking lot that looked like a warzone, I dont care how much salt you use.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

If you used the same level of care as the average person are you liable ?
Ice is a naturally occurring event.

Did you create the hazard ?

Then once becoming aware of the hazard what steps did you take to meditate The hazard and when


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I don't meditate while plowing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> It must be nice to only plow smooth, seamless pavement.
> 
> I guess that's the luxuries of plowing in the big city.
> 
> ...


It was just a question for discussion. Lots are probably worse in the city, but most of my accounts are in the 'burbs anyways.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I have dropped customers that have driveways that looked better than that. Doing that lot your just begging for broken equipment or complaints that "you dug up the pavement". NOT worth the job.

Id Fire them!
But thats just me.



rippinryno said:


> You should see my parking lot. I don't know how my garbage plow hasn't broke yet. I generally cannot even put the plow on the ground, the entire thing is potholes and cracks. I charged accordingly to maintain this lot and have to use more salt than I like, but it's still going to be quite profitable.
> 
> In lawncare, I do not charge the customer if I run over something in their yard. I typically make a point to do a very good walk through prior to servicing, just as I do with parking lots. With a crew it's different, because you have to mark and notify all your workers. for me, I just remember the bad spots and lift the plow when i get to them but it would be much better if the lot was in good shape and i could plow it clean. some of those chunks are so loose when you walk on them they move, water sits under there and it's just a mess. OH well.
> 
> ...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I don't meditate while plowing.


My ID enjoys plowing now and then.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

I fired a job last year . Was a place where they are court ordered to take pee test and get counseling . Lot was a mess . Id been plowing it for ten years . Got so bad I was afraid every time I want in that the whole lot was going to peel up . Plus with all the loosers in and out of the place from 8 am till 8 pm was just a matter of time before someone slipped or fell .


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

gcbailey said:


> Honestly I don't think there's much that can be done about it. I've talked to my lawyer about it before in having something wrote up and he said it's basically like holding a client responsible for getting a flat tire mowing.
> 
> His suggestion was/is.... Before plow season begins take photos, have stuff in writing, etc... that is discussed with the client on potential issues with their lot. Have your "CYA" and let them know what will or won't be done and have signatures in case any of their stuff gets torn up pretty bad.
> 
> As far as their property tearing up your equipment if it came down to it you are basically performing an "at will" service and no one is forcing you therefore not much leg to stand on, according to my lawyer..... Unless you can get it in writing that they will be liable for equipment, THEN it's a matter of documenting and proving that it happened at XXXX company property.


I don't like lawyers. Unless it's mine. Regardless your lawyer nailed a basic industry standard. Perform and document a preseason site inspection. Have your client acknowledge and sign it. File it for your protection later.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

SilverPine said:


> We have a building that had a large fire. The next winter, their already terrible parking lot got alot worse. There was alot of sinking, especially by the drains. The said they would be re-paving in the next year or two, obviously that wasnt going to help me for that winter. They ended up signing an amended contracted stating they wouldnt hold me liable for any areas that were "uneven", which was pretty much the whole property. I ended up leaving the blade an inch or so up and plowed like that.
> 
> Equipment damage aside.. how can you be liable for slip and falls in a parking lot that looked like a warzone, I dont care how much salt you use.
> View attachment 198684


You are the man. That's exactly what you should do. Addendum's are easy to add to your scope of work/contract. And that picture is the best defense you can produce.


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## gcbailey (Jan 26, 2014)

Luther said:


> I don't like lawyers. Unless it's mine. Regardless your lawyer nailed a basic industry standard. Perform and document a preseason site inspection. Have your client acknowledge and sign it. File it for your protection later.


I tend to agree concerning lawyers.... Over the years on the lawn care side and even on the plowing side I've found it invaluable to do pre-contract walk through with the property managers and point out potential issues. You know what you get when you "assume"..... If things are in writing, documented, etc, there's a lot less to assume when finger pointing comes.


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## rippinryno (Nov 14, 2019)

theplowmeister said:


> I have dropped customers that have driveways that looked better than that. Doing that lot your just begging for broken equipment or complaints that "you dug up the pavement". NOT worth the job.
> 
> Id Fire them!
> But thats just me.


salt salt salt.

somebodys' gotta do it, and at a pretty penny as well. My equipment is junk, i can take my time and be careful and get the lot taken care of. If you have the option to pick and chose accounts because you're busy, that's one thing. This here is my only account, it's a good paying one, and my beater truck and plow are ideal for the situation. If i have to leave plow up a bit to get around the bad spots, so be it, i'll put down more salt. I've taken photos of everything and mentioned in writing how poor the lot is.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Lest I get accused of starting 600 threads, I'll post to this one.

2 of the really bad lots I was referring to in this thread have been repaved now. 

1 is in the process, but we stopped backing into their loading dock due to the crater at the end of the seament. I was seriously concerned that we would break a spring, axle, frame, tyre it had such a deep crater.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was seriously concerned that we would break a spring, axle, frame, tyre it had such a deep crater.


You wouldn’t be laughing if that happened, not even a chuck-hole…


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## Kvston (Nov 30, 2019)

IMO holding clients for repairs is like getting a politician to do the right thing.

We have rough spots on all properties. We add cost for slowing down, back dragging in spots or blowing the area with rubber paddles. For direct clients, I walk them through the costs associated with maintaining those areas vs smooth pavement. I have yet to lose a client over the nominal per push increases with rough or bad pavement areas. If they are talking with me they already want me.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Bid accordingly.


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