# Pushing "older equipment".



## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

Im sure some of my stuff is considered "old" a 99 7.3 dump, and 89 F600 dump, a mid 90's 753 and a 04 463, hell some would even consider my 04 F350 pick up old. Is there some unwritten rule that I'm not aware of that states that I have to buy new equipment every few years and pass those costs on to my customers as a result, or else risk being labelled as a "low baller"? I LIKE having no payments at the end of the month to worry about. I LIKE working on my equipment and keeping it nice and in good operating condition. I LIKE winning bids because I don't have a $10000 payment at the end of each month that needs to be paid for. There was a time when a man would go out and buy a tractor and he would have it until day he died. Same with his truck, and other tools of the trade. Granted, in some cases there comes a time when a tired machine needs to go to pasture, but in most cases that isnt every three or four years. What is it with people being bitter and talking S about a guy who won a new contract because he's running older but capable equipment at a lower cost? Why the F would he charge more than what he needs to make just to maintain so called "market rates". Thats not being a "low baller", its being a good business person and making due with what he has access to..


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

^^^ applause ^^^


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## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Your pushing old equipement is part of the Obama Healthcare law. You have to read all 2500 pages of it to fully comprend what it really means to you


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

fireball;1513465 said:


> Your pushing old equipement is part of the Obama Healthcare law. You have to read all 2500 pages of it to fully comprend what it really means to you


I consider myself to be of at least average intelligence lol, and I have no idea what you just wrote means...


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Nothing wrong with running older equipment. But you need to have a plan to replace them. If you expect them to last forever, and have efficiency approaching new trucks, you are only fooling yourself.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

I have nothing against new equipment. And yes, in time things do need to be replaced. And I do understand there are markets for brand new trucks and markets for less than new, and markets for rust buckets. 
I would put with confidence, any of my equipment up against anything ten years younger in a similar class. Yes, my 753 is only a single speed, so it isn't as fast there, but it's also paid for.
My plan has always been to have enough put aside in order to purchase a "newer" piece when needed, and that is part of my business model. I stress out enough not having to worry about large payments at the end of the month making sure my customers get what they are paying for while putting food on the table, and having enough after that to enjoy myself a little and sock some away too. 
My point is, that if you have presentable, aesthetically pleasing, well maintained and properly functioning equipment that makes you money and allows you to price a c-hair cheaper than the rest, whats wrong with that?


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## M.A.H. (Aug 9, 2012)

fireball;1513465 said:


> Your pushing old equipement is part of the Obama Healthcare law. You have to read all 2500 pages of it to fully comprend what it really means to you


HUH???

Anyways as long as your equipment is in good shape keep it. I have trucks from the 80's yet. If you keep them in good shape, why buy a new one? Just charge enough just incase you need a new one, then you can buy it with no payments.


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

ducaticorse;1513458 said:


> Im sure some of my stuff is considered "old" a 99 7.3 dump, and 89 F600 dump, a mid 90's 753 and a 04 463, hell some would even consider my 04 F350 pick up old. Is there some unwritten rule that I'm not aware of that states that I have to buy new equipment every few years and pass those costs on to my customers as a result, or else risk being labelled as a "low baller"? I LIKE having no payments at the end of the month to worry about. I LIKE working on my equipment and keeping it nice and in good operating condition. I LIKE winning bids because I don't have a $10000 payment at the end of each month that needs to be paid for. There was a time when a man would go out and buy a tractor and he would have it until day he died. Same with his truck, and other tools of the trade. Granted, in some cases there comes a time when a tired machine needs to go to pasture, but in most cases that isnt every three or four years. What is it with people being bitter and talking S about a guy who won a new contract because he's running older but capable equipment at a lower cost? Why the F would he charge more than what he needs to make just to maintain so called "market rates". Thats not being a "low baller", its being a good business person and making due with what he has access to..


Well said, just like others said, just make sure your charging enough to buyh the new equipment when you need it.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I hear this all the time in my head. The stuff I buy I like to keep till I can't run it anymore. It is always worth more to me than I can get for it selling it used.
Having said that....the new stuff is way more comfortable and worth the price IMO as I get older. Technology\efficiency also is a factor in accomplishing more with a new piece..


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

Mr.Markus;1513554 said:


> I hear this all the time in my head. The stuff I buy I like to keep till I can't run it anymore. It is always worth more to me than I can get for it selling it used.
> Having said that....the new stuff is way more comfortable and worth the price IMO as I get older. Technology\efficiency also is a factor in accomplishing more with a new piece..


All I have found with "technology" so far, is that it costs way more to repair, and you need to have a PhD to do it.

The comfortability thing I agree with 100% My 89 F600 is a little rough around the edges in that department, but it's clean, doesnt leak, and does its job well.


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## L.I.Mike (Dec 28, 2002)

If you can make enough money plowing to replace your equipment every couple of years thats good for you. I keep my older equipment in very good shape since I cant afford to buy the new pickup... yet payup


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## vintage steel (Nov 15, 2011)

I've never made a payment on ANYTHING! I don't even have a credit card.: I go without untill I can afford what I want. My Jimmy, "ol' #1" is older than me. There is nothing wrong with that. People buying stuff they can't afford,on credit is one of the biggest problems today. People cry when the bank forecloses or reposeses...I got news for you, YOU NEVER OWNED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! Me, I'll keep my old equipment and never loose one minutes sleep worring about payments and yes, I charge less than the guy with the shiny new "bank owned" truck.


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

Couldn't agree more. I could care less how old someone's equipment is in most cases.

But then there are guys with old trucks that look old because they are so cheap that they won't even put a little money in a old truck to make it look decent.

I hate seeing commercial guys with trucks that have rust roles in every spot imaginable, that's just off puts me so much and don't understand it. If you "old" equipment looks like it's still new, your company is as appealing to me as the guy driving a brand new truck.


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

The only person you are impressing with your brand new truck, loader or whatever is the other plow guys out there. 90% of your customers don't care how old your equipment is, and most couldn't tell the difference between a 2012 truck and a 1998 truck thats in good condition. all they care about is the work gets done. Personally, I like old stuff thats fixed up really nice. I have a lot more respect for the guy driving around in a really clean and kept up 15 year old truck than I do for the guy driving around in a brand new truck. But thats just me...


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

I run mine till they dont run or not safe to drive I ran my 88 f250 till 05 and frame was so thin wasnt safe to drive Body was in good shape no body rust just frame But I mis that truck it was a plow truck

Whats hard on trucks letting them just sit around all summer What happen to my 88 last 5 yrs of its life only was used as a snow truck

Now I make sure the frames are under coated better


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## MWSAI (Aug 19, 2012)

I don't believe there is anything with running older equipment. Just make sure it's serviced and dependable. 
I too enjoy having my stuff paid off. If it breaks I fix it. Yes, equipment does reach the end of its life expectancy at some point. 
I wouldn't call anyone that's charging what they need to to stay in business and profitable a lowballer whether they are running new rigs or older.


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## TGS Inc. (Aug 17, 2010)

I used to buy all new. Had at least 5-7 truck payments all the time. Changed my business model. I'm buying trucks at municipal auctions. I spent $ 85,000.00 on my last new 5-7 yard dump, now buying them for $ 3000 - 5000.00. We find sidewalk trucks the same way; 3/4 ton - 1 ton trucks for $ 400.00 to $ 1200.00.


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## 90plow (Dec 22, 2001)

"Most couldnt tell the difference between a 2012 truck and a 1998". So funny but so true i have people asking me if our 02 f650 is new all the time and the one that sticks out in my mind is i detailed my fathers 5 year old truck and we went back to the same job and the lady asked if he bought a new truck last night. I think running them until theyre shot is ok depending on what there used for. Plow only trucks that see low miles sure. Bosses truck or foreman that sees alot of mileage no the more tows and down time more money lost. To each his own.


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## MikeRi24 (Dec 21, 2007)

90plow;1513720 said:


> "Most couldnt tell the difference between a 2012 truck and a 1998". So funny but so true i have people asking me if our 02 f650 is new all the time and the one that sticks out in my mind is i detailed my fathers 5 year old truck and we went back to the same job and the lady asked if he bought a new truck last night. I think running them until theyre shot is ok depending on what there used for. Plow only trucks that see low miles sure. Bosses truck or foreman that sees alot of mileage no the more tows and down time more money lost. To each his own.


People aren't stupid, like if you show up to do an estimate in some rusted out clunker they know whats up, but usually when its snowing and the truck is covered in snow and you cant see outside anyway they dont notice. The biggest thing for me is exhaust leaks. I don't care how new the truck is, if it has a exhaust leak/tick that is the one single thing that screams "hunk of $h1t" to me. 2 of my trucks have dual exhaust systems on them, but they sound good and toned, the exhaust leak just makes something sound like a clunker.


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## greekmaster (Sep 6, 2010)

1976 FORD F250 360 410 rear end. She aint pretty. But she likes to work!! She is ALMOST my wife!!!! 
BTW...She loves my 12 accounts. 5 commercial and property mgt co w/35 units. ENOUGH SAID.


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## greekmaster (Sep 6, 2010)

PS.... AND thats my PART time Job!!!!


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## DieselSlug (Nov 30, 2009)

I plow with a truck thats different colors and is very crusty. All depends what "rent" district your in. Out here in the country no-body cares, they want the cheapest rate. If you can get away with the old stuff why not? My truck has never failed me in 5 years, had it towed once for a fuel gell issue in January, but that wasnt its fault. I paid 1K for this truck.


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

Every so often these threads pop up and I usually throw in my two cents.

I say it all depends on how your type of accounts and what your doing with them.

When I first started in this industry I had some older trucks and it was horrible. They were miserable to use and broke down constantly. Repairs took most of the profit. Now I'm not much with a wrench, so that requires a trip to the garage most of the time. If you can fix them yourself it helps, but nothing like trying to change a transmission line at 3 am in a snow storm when all the parts stores are closed and your already behind on your route. Plus the old saying "time is money" comes to mind. 

I will say there are probably 15 year old trucks that are in nice shape and been extermely well maintained that are more reliable and look nicer than a 5 year old truck that has had the hell beat out of it and has had little to no maintenance. 

For me, what I've been doing is buying trucks that are a year old or so, and then keep them untill around 5 years old or 100,000 miles. This keeps me from having to worry about too many repairs or break downs, and I can usually sell them for not a whole lot less than what I paid for them.


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## RONK (Jan 22, 2008)

To the guys running older truck,do you think older trucks are more reliable and or more durable?


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

RONK;1515091 said:


> To the guys running older truck,do you think older trucks are more reliable and or more durable?


Completely depends on the maintenance pulled. I will say however, people who know ford motors will undoubtedly side with the durability of the 7.3 over any other diesel motor ever used by ford, myself included.

You really need to know what you're looking at, and have a mechanical inclination, or have a great mechanic who is trustworthy and fairly priced.

For instance, I stole a 99 F350 dually dump 7.3 outfitted with a 9ft MM1 with 54k on the clock for 6500 bucks this summer. Needed shocks and a manifold. Truck is worth 11-15K all day long and will outlast most trucks in a similar class twice its age. I will literally never sell this truck because to replace it would cost me $40 grand. I also bought an 04 F350XL with an 8ft MM2 with 60K on the clock for 6 grand a month ago needed brakes and a manifold. Right place in the right time.


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## KYsnow (Sep 22, 2012)

This thread sounds like he saw another contractor with nice looking new equipment and he is having a conversation in his own head justifying to himself why he has older equipment instead of newer nicer looking equipment. 

If it works for you don't worry what others think. There's a million ways to make a million.


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

KYsnow;1515149 said:


> This thread sounds like he saw another contractor with nice looking new equipment and he is having a conversation in his own head justifying to himself why he has older equipment instead of newer nicer looking equipment.
> 
> If it works for you don't worry what others think. There's a million ways to make a million.


I didn't mention that in my earlier post but was thinking that. Not saying thats the case here, but I think most of these types of threads have a certain amount of jealousy in them.


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## rob_cook2001 (Nov 15, 2008)

I love old equipment and consider myself very mechanically inclined. That being said I don't want to rely on old stuff at 3am when its snowing and I am trying to make half my months income in a day or two. Many times it might not be true but when I see a old truck out on a lot I automatically assume they are lowballers, I don't know if they are or not but it gives that impression. Appearance is everything. There is also a difference between old equipment and junk. There is a truck I see every storm, a 89-93 reg cab cummins running a 8.2 boss v. Great looking truck, I talked to him at the fuel station and it had like 50k miles, there is nothing wrong with using a truck like that. I see a ton of beat up mid 90's gmc's that have dents and rust all over with bent up myers blades hanging off the front..... in my mind there is something wrong with using that, even if it is mechanically sound. Gives you a bad image.
Sorry for the long post I did not mean to ramble.


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## theholycow (Nov 29, 2002)

MikeRi24;1513730 said:


> People aren't stupid, like if you show up to do an estimate in some rusted out clunker they know whats up,


Yup, they know they won't have to pay for your $40,000 truck.



> The biggest thing for me is exhaust leaks. I don't care how new the truck is, if it has a exhaust leak/tick that is the one single thing that screams "hunk of $h1t" to me. 2 of my trucks have dual exhaust systems on them, but they sound good and toned, the exhaust leak just makes something sound like a clunker.


Most people cannot tell the difference between an exhaust leak and an expensive aftermarket exhaust. I drove my car for two years with a leak at the manifold, it sounded absolutely horrible and incredibly loud but I just didn't have the dough (nor the confidence to do it myself; I was afraid if studs broke off in the head then the head would have to come off). Nobody ever complained but a few complimented me on my great exhaust...I was thinking "WTF Is wrong with you people?" every time. I even got compliments the week that a pipe broke between the cat and the muffler, which added drone to the BLATBLATBLAT noise.

I recently took it to the shop. They had to drill and EZ-out every single stud. I'm glad I let them do that job. It's SO quiet now, and I no longer have to be embarrassed (or complimented, as the case may be).


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

KYsnow;1515149 said:


> This thread sounds like he saw another contractor with nice looking new equipment and he is having a conversation in his own head justifying to himself why he has older equipment instead of newer nicer looking equipment.
> 
> If it works for you don't worry what others think. There's a million ways to make a million.


Zero level of jealousy on the behalf of the thread starter. Actually, quite the opposite. I have nice trucks and skids, and also have no payments at the end of the month, I sleep well at night regardless of the weather. I am a very small outfit too, and by the looks of things here I do better than most companies here do with twice what I have in my yard.Even at the pricing that I am at now, I could easily remain profitable reducing my billing by 20-30%. My point was simply that if you have older equipment in nice shape, and are able to give lower prices to your clients while at the same time keeping the standards of service high, that doesn't make you a lowballer, it makes you a good businessman. That is all.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

KYsnow;1515149 said:


> This thread sounds like he saw another contractor with nice looking new equipment and he is having a conversation in his own head justifying to himself why he has older equipment instead of newer nicer looking equipment.
> 
> If it works for you don't worry what others think. There's a million ways to make a million.


LOL, or kind of like last year when we had 9 inches total snow and all the contractors with the "nicer" equipment that they rented out or purchased for the season sat on the lots idle all winter putting them out of business or in a very deep hole. Yeah that's it, sounds like jealousy to me......


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

ducaticorse;1513458 said:


> Im sure some of my stuff is considered "old" a 99 7.3 dump, and 89 F600 dump, a mid 90's 753 and a 04 463, hell some would even consider my 04 F350 pick up old. Is there some unwritten rule that I'm not aware of that states that I have to buy new equipment every few years and pass those costs on to my customers as a result, or else risk being labelled as a "low baller"? I LIKE having no payments at the end of the month to worry about. I LIKE working on my equipment and keeping it nice and in good operating condition. I LIKE winning bids because I don't have a $10000 payment at the end of each month that needs to be paid for. There was a time when a man would go out and buy a tractor and he would have it until day he died. Same with his truck, and other tools of the trade. Granted, in some cases there comes a time when a tired machine needs to go to pasture, but in most cases that isnt every three or four years. *What is it with people being bitter and talking S about a guy who won a new contract because he's running older but capable equipment at a lower cost? Why the F would he charge more than what he needs to make just to maintain so called "market rates". Thats not being a "low baller", its being a good business person and making due with what he has access to*..


The same can be said about you. Why are you leaving money on the table? It doesn't matter what you're using to get the job done, it's what the job is worth. Just because a guy has a new truck or equipment doesn't mean he has to charge more.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

ALC-GregH;1515218 said:


> The same can be said about you. Why are you leaving money on the table? It doesn't matter what you're using to get the job done, it's what the job is worth. Just because a guy has a new truck or equipment doesn't mean he has to charge more.


Why leave money on the table? Because I have a profit margin I have chosen to maintain. Going for more just because it may be there is not worth the risk of not getting the work IMHO, some could call it maintaining market rates, some people could call it being greedy.

And if your operating costs are higher, yes, in fact you do have to charge more to maintain your selected margin of profit than a guy with a similar margin and little or no expenses, that is business 101. Example, you have a skid payment, truck payment sander payment and put all your shovels on credit cards. Do you think youre going to maintain the same margin of profit while keeping your pricing even with a guy ike me who owns all his equipment out right? Obviously not.


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## mpriester (Oct 2, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with older equipment as long as its dependable and somewhat pleasing to the eye. A customer that i acquired last year contacted me about plowing and salting their lot with a zero tolerance. When i went to do the bid, before she even looked at the contract she looked straight at my truck and said " you have the job as long as your licensed and insured" . Its not the age of the vehicle its how the vehicle looks for a lot of potential clients. Just mt two cents


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

ducaticorse;1513563 said:


> All I have found with "technology" so far, is that it costs way more to repair, and you need to have a PhD to do it.


I manage pretty well maintaining modern equipment, and I don't have a PhD... only an MASc.


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## greekmaster (Sep 6, 2010)

I find older equipment more durable than new equipment. I would NOT want to put a newer truck through some of the work I have put my '76 F250 through!! The newer trucks just wouldnt be able to take it!!


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## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

For anyone trying to quantify the advantages of old vs. new, it really comes down to priorities. 

Some of the younger set (or maybe some insecure older guys too) are only out to have fun and look cool plowing. As long as they can make their payments and s-c-r-a-p-e by at the end of the month they are happy. They don't really understand such things as working capital, debt to asset ratios, cash flow, and profit margins. These will most likely run expensive equipment, maybe not brand new but expensive nonetheless. They will have accessories dripping from it, their warning lighting will be completely over the top, etc. You all know the type. If we could all see the inside of their business we might find out they are only plowing 10 accounts, showing a loss every month, but hey... they look big, right?

Some operators have extremely tight routes. They have maximized their efficiency to the extreme and are plowing far more accounts per truck than most operators could possibly achieve. They have learned that efficiency equals productivity equals more accounts and have acted accordingly. To service their route with older equipment would require another truck and driver. This equals more overhead. They choose to do it all themselves with as little equipment as possible. They can't risk a breakdown. These will run new(er) trucks, expandable or modern vee plows, and maybe an Ebling on the tail. They may or may not understand business principles but their priority is to service as many accounts as possible per truck. They may or may not be actually profitable.

Some guys who bid on very large commercial properties run the numbers and find that the bid is won or lost depending on the type of equipment used. They might buy used or new equipment, lease new equipment, or hire subs. Whatever they choose to do is based on being awarded the contract and (hopefully) making some money servicing it.

Some operators live in areas that don't get a lot of snow. However, snow must be moved no matter how much or little, so someone has to plow snow. These guys most likely cannot make new equipment pencil out no matter how optimistic they are. The legitimate guys might run old trucks and plows but provide a necessary service when the snow falls. Nobody will care what they run. In these areas there might be some new trucks and plows around but they will no doubt fall into the first category I described above. In this case it might actually be the guys with the new equipment who are lowballers, because they have to get all the accounts they can to make their payments.

There are guys who are like the OP. Mechanically inclined, love to tinker, hate debt, have business sense, probably have more money than a lot of us ever will, but they run nice older stuff. The fact that everything is paid for, and there is money in the bank, and they understand business principles, proves that they are not lowballers. Their priority is to be profitable. 
Then there are lowballers. They run crap because at the prices they charge they can barely afford to buy gas, much less a heat lamp lunch and a Campbell's canned dinner. They will never have money in the bank. They will seldom do a good job. And they will seldom keep their contracts for over one season.

The difference between a lowballer and someone legitimate who runs older equipment is that the lowballer is running older equipment because there's no way for him to buy anything newer, while the other guy is running older stuff because he is comfortable with it and is profitable running it. Really, everyone should make their decision based on what will get you to the end of the season with the most money stashed away in the bank. A lot of people don't really get being profitable. They think making the payment and a living besides is profitable. That is false. Profit is money left over, that continues to add up. To be profitable you don't have to worry about how your pricing affects other companies. It is a term used by you and your banker and your accountant to determine if you are making wise business choices and are running a sustainable business. A lot of "profitable" small operators keep themselves strapped with payments and never really see what a building bank account looks like. 

And then there is another consideration. In our summer line of work, we get a lot of jobs simply because our biggest competitor shows up to quote their jobs in super customized brand new fancy trucks. That actually turns people OFF! We hear it all the time:"I won't hire that company. I don't like to think that I'm helping pay for a truck that cost half as much as my house." We show up in a late model, bone stock, plain white company service truck with our company logo on the door and quote the exact same figure as they did and we get the job. I honestly think we close 90-95% of sales when bidding head to head against this company, and our quotes are always nearly identical. Why? 

Just some food for thought.


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## Triton2286 (Dec 29, 2011)

trustyrusty;1516222 said:


> Just some food for thought.


I'm full after that, well done!


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

trustyrusty;1516222 said:


> For anyone trying to quantify the advantages of old vs. new, it really comes down to priorities.
> 
> Some of the younger set (or maybe some insecure older guys too) are only out to have fun and look cool plowing. As long as they can make their payments and s-c-r-a-p-e by at the end of the month they are happy. They don't really understand such things as working capital, debt to asset ratios, cash flow, and profit margins. These will most likely run expensive equipment, maybe not brand new but expensive nonetheless. They will have accessories dripping from it, their warning lighting will be completely over the top, etc. You all know the type. If we could all see the inside of their business we might find out they are only plowing 10 accounts, showing a loss every month, but hey... they look big, right?
> 
> ...


Most excellent. I would love to hear some of the "pros" on here take a run at this.. Thank you for taking the time to write out an intelligent, well thought out response.


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## jmac5058 (Sep 28, 2009)

What if you make enough to pay cash for new trucks is that stupid ? Theres nothing better with old stuff compaired to new. When my wife hit 40 I traded her in for two 20s


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

cash for new stuff has depreciation still. but theres a time and place for everything. I think for most people good quality used paid for with cash is the best way to go but obviously every situation is unique


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

jmac5058;1516290 said:


> What if you make enough to pay cash for new trucks is that stupid ? Theres nothing better with old stuff compaired to new. When my wife hit 40 I traded her in for two 20s


Perhaps not stupid, but I could think of several different better ways to make that cash work for me rather than buying new trucks. And the whole profit margin still comes into play regardless of whether you pay cash or mortgage your trucks. You still have that $40K nut to crack before you become profitable. Youre ins rates are higher because your property is worth triple what a used truck is. You need to factor all this into your books. Asking this question kind of confirms what another gentleman made a point of not four posts earlier. There is a big misconception as to how to run a profitable business around here.....


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## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

ducaticorse;1516280 said:


> Most excellent. I would love to hear some of the "pros" on here take a run at this.. Thank you for taking the time to write out an intelligent, well thought out response.


Don't get me wrong. I definitely know there are some guys who can justify new stuff. We started out as a sidewalk only company. Then because of customer demand we bought and old used plow truck, thus my username. As time has progressed we are filling our portfolio with more, bigger, and better jobs, and efficiency becomes paramount. We have started buying newer plows, but putting them on not-so-new trucks. One day, no doubt, our overall business model (resale value, tax equations, professional appearance, etc.) will demand moderate, businesslike new trucks, and if we put plows on them we will end up with new trucks and plows.

My point is that everyone has their own scenario, and old or new, guys should buy what their business realistically needs, not what they want. If I decided to build houses for a living and I thought that a real contractor has to have a secretary, an office with a showroom, a new pickup, etc., and I expected everyone to bring their price up to where I was profitable but able to compete, I'm afraid I'd get hungry fast. Also I would get nowhere telling all the other contractors who worked out of their homes and drove used stuff and did their own clerical work that they were handy-hacks. The most important thing I was trying to say, though, is that to judge someone as a lowballer just because he drives an older plow truck is narrow-minded at best. The real businessmen who know their numbers and are running a successful business running new equipment are generally not the ones whining about the lowballers who drive older trucks. They are comfortable with their ability to compete and they hold their edge.


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## TGS Inc. (Aug 17, 2010)

*One of our latest salt rigs...*

Here is a CL gem. Picked up this V-10 Dodge duelly for $ 1750.00 (my salter).


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

Don't forget new equipment comes with a depreciation schedule. Your choice, pay tax to the government or buy new and pay less tax to the government.

Note. Nothing I own was new other than salt spreaders and plows.


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## Wilnip (Oct 4, 2011)

MatthewG;1516475 said:


> Don't forget new equipment comes with a depreciation schedule. Your choice, pay tax to the government or buy new and pay less tax to the government.
> 
> Note. Nothing I own was new other than salt spreaders and plows.


You can depreciate used stuff as well. But the guy who bought that new truck looses more in value than you save in a tax credit. IMO.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Wilnip;1516481 said:


> You can depreciate used stuff as well. But the guy who bought that new truck looses more in value than you save in a tax credit. IMO.


 Agreed....


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

TGS Inc.;1516451 said:


> Here is a CL gem. Picked up this V-10 Dodge duelly for $ 1750.00 (my salter).


Does that truck fight alot?


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## TGS Inc. (Aug 17, 2010)

2COR517;1516538 said:


> Does that truck fight alot?


HA!! It's always "On guard" during inclement weather.... :-0

-Wayne


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Oooops........


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

What if your new stuff is old........ depreciation works on both IMO. By the time I'm done with a truck there is no value left in it but by then it has surpassed it's purchase price many times over even though I buy them new.


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## linckeil (Sep 18, 2007)

it boils down to one simple equation:

profit = revenue - expenses.

maximize the first, minimize the second.

i run an older truck, but keep my revenue just as high as they guy with the $700 monthly payment on his truck. 

my expenses are low as i do the work myself and working on cars is a hobby of mine. i enjoy it and it saves me tons of cash. win-win for me.... i am all about preventative maintance. i have had only 2 breakdowns in the 17 years i've been plowing - and those were in my early years. it's probably been a good 12 years or so since any breakdowns and my truck sees 50 driveways each storm.

people think a brand new truck is not suseptible to a breakdown, but sh!t happens. i've seen it many times. 

the rusted beater with the bent frame and cracked headlight probably does belong to a low baller, but if he posses a threat to your business, you better consider another line of work. 

the jealously comment is absurd. in fact, i bet the guy with the fat payment who is just scraping by is jealous of my profit margins being exponentially higher than his... if he's not, then he's out there to "look" cool, not make money.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

I run older trucks/equip. There is a life expectancy though, because I hate running tired iron and turning wrenches when I should be pushing snow.


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

Nothing wrong with running older iron. You can make good money with paid for rigs. I myself upgrade a plow, truck or loader approximately every 5 years.


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## gtstang462002 (Dec 23, 2009)

I owe money on the truck that I drive/push with, The rest of my equipment is '05 or older. I also pay operators to run said equipment and maintain a profit margin. I am not overly concerned with the comfort factor of my operators as I pay them well and they come back season after season. That being said, I will not be buying another truck once this one is paid for (unless it gets wrecked beyond repair or some other disaster becomes of it) as it will always be cheaper to fix it. It does help that I do my own repairs as I spent a few years working for the local ford dealer as a diesel/truck transmission specialist to keep repair costs reasonable. 

On a side note, I only owe money on my truck and house. Once each one is paid off respectively we will not be making any other purchases based on what a bank believes they can loan me, it will be based on what our checking account says we can afford outright after all of the bills are paid.


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

When you have $150K + accounts relying on YOU I would not advise that. 

We bought a 96 GMC Kodiak for salting one year supposedly it a good deal at 6K and the sucker didnt even start when we needed it one night. Do you know how hard it is to tell a property manager of 3 Condo complexes that your #1 Rock salt spreader isnt starting and the Mechanic is in Florida.... Yeah that night i was Crapping my pants. So from now on we havent bought any older plow/ salt trucks...

Now I do have a few beater sidewalk crew trucks but those we have backups for... so its not a problem.


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## ducaticorse (Oct 16, 2012)

BigBoyPlowin;1519594 said:


> When you have $150K + accounts relying on YOU I would not advise that.
> 
> We bought a 96 GMC Kodiak for salting one year supposedly it a good deal at 6K and the sucker didnt even start when we needed it one night. Do you know how hard it is to tell a property manager of 3 Condo complexes that your #1 Rock salt spreader isnt starting and the Mechanic is in Florida.... Yeah that night i was Crapping my pants. So from now on we havent bought any older plow/ salt trucks...
> 
> Now I do have a few beater sidewalk crew trucks but those we have backups for... so its not a problem.


So what, the dealer warranty on your new trucks does the explaining to your contracts when they break down?

Ive seen plenty of new trucks **** the bed for numerous reasons. And if you're not keeping your equipment well maintained and in good operating condition, that's on you and no warranty is going to help you there....


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

You can maintain them as well as you can and still have problems. Maintaining them doesnt mean a problem cant crop up and shut you down. It is almost laughable what can go wrong and does go wrong in the middle of the night with equipment. Not to mention the way prices are for doing commercial work it just doesnt pay most of the time to have have new trucks if you dont have summer time use for them.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

BigBoyPlowin;1519594 said:


> When you have $150K + accounts relying on YOU I would not advise that.
> 
> We bought a 96 GMC Kodiak for salting one year supposedly it a good deal at 6K and the sucker didnt even start when we needed it one night. Do you know how hard it is to tell a property manager of 3 Condo complexes that your #1 Rock salt spreader isnt starting and the Mechanic is in Florida.... Yeah that night i was Crapping my pants. So from now on we havent bought any older plow/ salt trucks...
> 
> Now I do have a few beater sidewalk crew trucks but those we have backups for... so its not a problem.


New or used you still have to have a backup plan. Excuses are just that and they aren't exceptable.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

JD Dave;1519704 said:


> New or used you still have to have a backup plan. Excuses are just that and they aren't exceptable.


Dave is exactly correct on this....and I'm as guilty as anyone, and it costs me. Last season my primary V box salter got damaged. I had to hire a sub in cost me about $ 50/ton over my cost plus they used twice the salt I would have. The kick in the butt is I have another V box sitting in my shop.....with a frozen chain or motor. I could have switched them out (salters both Smith electrics) in minutes.....but the if its broke it doesn't help. For what it cost for the sub, would have paid for it self.


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## BigBoyPlowin (Nov 16, 2012)

All of our equipment gets serviced by our ASE & Diesel mechanic before the winter... They also get all fluids and everything changed REGULARLY. 

Within the last 5 years we havent really had any major problems that put me into a nervous wreck state like when our salter when down... 

Yes YOU WILL still have problems in the middle of the night but thats with anything... Even your body will give you problems when you're out at 3AM plowing in 32* weather.... But there is nothing worse than sayin "oh.... i wish i would of checked my radiator(or any other thing) before the season for problems.."


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Italiano67;1519656 said:



> You can maintain them as well as you can and still have problems. Maintaining them doesnt mean a problem cant crop up and shut you down. It is almost laughable what can go wrong and does go wrong in the middle of the night with equipment. Not to mention the way prices are for doing commercial work it just doesnt pay most of the time to have have new trucks if you dont have summer time use for them.


I agree having a brand new truck just for snowplowing would be tough if you didn't use it all year. I have 5 trucks and only one payment left. I had a few thousand dollars in repairs this month getting everything ready for this coming snow season. My trucks are getting tired for sure but not dead yet. I almost bought a brand new 2013 ford 250 a week ago with a boss V because I was discouraged about all the repairs lately, but I sleep on it and decicded to wait till my one truck is paid off next year before I buy another one. I don't think it matters what your truck looks like as long as your a reliable, and good plow operator that keeps there customers happy. Good luck everyone this year and hopefully we can all stay running and making money.


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## lawn king (Nov 21, 2004)

Year round use of trucks is where landscapers have the advantage for sure. Trucks and machines just switch mode & owner/operators/ know the equipment and what issues may be going on with them. Thats not to say we dont have breakdowns, but we do have an advantage. I dont have to go purchase insurance, i just add a 5 month ryder to my existing policy. If you park an old rat out in the weeds all summer and throw a plate and a quart of oil in her and expect to have a good winter, you need to check your meds!


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## Dig-It-Landscap (Dec 13, 2006)

I run old and new trucks/equipment. I try to buy a new truck every 3-4 years, but I also plan on keeping them for 15+ years and well maintained. Since I needed more truck over the last few years, to service both summer and winter use, I bought a few older trucks. I did this because although I believe having the newer trucks (not all customized) helps company image, I won't have more than 1 truck payment at a time. 

So as long as business is still growing I have no problem making 1 truck payment at all times. When that payment is disbursed over the amount of work we do, it adds only pennies.

JMO


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## birddseedd (Jul 12, 2010)

vintage steel;1513666 said:


> I've never made a payment on ANYTHING! I don't even have a credit card.: I go without untill I can afford what I want. My Jimmy, "ol' #1" is older than me. There is nothing wrong with that. People buying stuff they can't afford,on credit is one of the biggest problems today. People cry when the bank forecloses or reposeses...I got news for you, YOU NEVER OWNED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! Me, I'll keep my old equipment and never loose one minutes sleep worring about payments and yes, I charge less than the guy with the shiny new "bank owned" truck.


Technicialy you do own it, hte bank just has rights to it. but what do you think of the situation i was in?

My truck went out shortly after i started my business. there was no way i would have been able to buy one with cash, and was pulling my equipment with my motorcycle. (an old bike, not worth the value of a truck). the only way i was able to get a truck was with a loan. i made sure to get a truck capable of plowing, and the money i make from plowing alone pays for the truck and more.

I just wish the bank would have let me gotten an older truck. 04 ram.


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## CRSHOT (Nov 13, 2012)

parts or payments either way we pay!


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