# Confession time...



## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

Well, I wasn't always like this. It really crept up on me the last couple years. I remember being enthusiastic about winter, getting to plow and be out at all hours. But now, I LOATHE plowing! 

I fantasize about what it would be like to sit in my living room with a hot cup of coffee and just stare out the window watching the snow fall without having to worry about getting the route done. Not have to worry about whether employees will show up or break something. Will the trucks make it through the storm untouched? Are we really only going to get the 1-3" they called for or are will we get 6"+ with 1-2' drifts (yes we did btw).

I find myself laughing when the young guys on here mention they want 36" storms, or complaining about no snow. 

Yea, I may have gotten cynical in my old age (28) but damnit if I wouldn't be happier sitting at home lol.

Definitely going to downsize our plowing for next year, tighten the route and only do the accounts that are incidental to our other year round services.

Not trying to be that guy, just expressing how I've felt lately. Good luck to everyone and stay safe out there!


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Im 48 this year, and I still enjoy plowing snow 


I guess im just a weirdo..


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

it's just how you're feeling now. I am sick of the snow right now but I already know that come august i'll be sick of mowing and cant wait to get back at plowing. But i do know how you feel, this year has sucked. i was extremely bored november and decemeber and january was pretty bad but this february has been unbelievable. i have plowed almost everyday


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## SnowFakers (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't look forward to it much at all... It snows sunday and Thursday every week for nearly a month now. I wouldn't mind if it just snowed a few inches and ended around 10pm. Enough time to get it done easily and without having to deal with idiots on the roads. I loved plowing last year, this year I don't. I never lose my love for mowing through the season, I enjoy getting up early and hitting the lawns.


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## alldayrj (Feb 28, 2010)

I get your headaches, some might not since theyre essentially running a solo op. 
For snow i sub for the winter. Its a refreshing break from the headaches your experiencing but next year i will have to grab my own accounts to keep full time guys busy. Im young like you, about to be 26 but ive been operating since i was 9 so the fun of snow wears off in about an hour lol


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## TKLAWN (Jan 20, 2008)

I feel the same way.
I think it's the lead up to the snow I hate the most. 

Will it snow or not, when will it stop.

When I actually get out and start plowing it's not bad.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

I too am not feeling the same about snow as I did years back. It used to be a challenge to see how many accounts I could handle and going after financial goals. I now have a lackluster feeling and this year has been a joke around here but I could couldn't care less. The more equipment you buy and the bigger you get just increases the pressure and the dread when you look at the forecast and wonder if you have everything covered and if everyone will answer their phone to come in. I too have had the envy of others that get to look out the window and watch it snow without a care. For those that say the checks make it all better I don't think that's true. Maybe its just getting older and goals have been accomplished. I don't have the answer.


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## Buswell Forest (Jan 11, 2013)

I don't mind so much. Beats logging with a chain saw in 4 feet of snow. And the money is handy.


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## NBI Lawn (Oct 15, 2007)

I hear ya. I would love to go skiing or like you said...just watch it snow. I don see myself being able to give it up.


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

*dont mind a biggy .... but they cant seen to properly warn (FORECAST) us about them . makes things difficult preparing , purchasing .*


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

Just turned 54...I enjoyed it till this year....holy crap!


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

ProTouchGrounds;1958239 said:


> Well, I wasn't always like this. It really crept up on me the last couple years. I remember being enthusiastic about winter, getting to plow and be out at all hours. But now, I LOATHE plowing!
> 
> I fantasize about what it would be like to sit in my living room with a hot cup of coffee and just stare out the window watching the snow fall without having to worry about getting the route done. Not have to worry about whether employees will show up or break something. Will the trucks make it through the storm untouched? Are we really only going to get the 1-3" they called for or are will we get 6"+ with 1-2' drifts (yes we did btw).
> 
> ...


Been preaching this for years!


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## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Im 45 and quit the biz 2 years ago (after almost 20 years of plowing)...... best feeling/decision I made


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## MOUNTAIN MOVER (Dec 19, 2007)

I've been plowing for 30+ years......used to shovel my way to the truck 10 miles one way barefoot. I have come to realize that it is a love/hate relationship. I've been saying for at least 10 years that I'm gonna give it up and move west......still here.....just cant break the spell its got on me. I love the beginning of the season and long for the end at the same time. Someday I will stop......when they plow me under. Hang in there guys, spring is coming.


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

waiting for a ** snow squall**to put down a quik 3 here . what a joke .

imagine having 9 ' dumped on ur ace in 2 days , and all your accounts are seasonal . makes me feel better. them boys will be outta toilet paper for months


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## motoxguy (Oct 17, 2010)

Although we have had a very easy year so far I am beginning to get sick of plowing as well. I'm sick of bending over backwards for property managers and building owners through out the season and next summer when it comes to re sign everyone is about there bottom line of making sure they are getting the best pricing although on our end equipment costs continuously go up as well as salt. I to can not wait for the time in my life where I won't have to plow anymore and will beable to look outside my window and say wow it looks shi*** out there!


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

MOUNTAIN MOVER;1958302 said:


> I've been plowing for 30+ years......used to shovel my way to the truck 10 miles one way barefoot. I have come to realize that it is a love/hate relationship. I've been saying for at least 10 years that I'm gonna give it up and move west......still here.....just cant break the spell its got on me. I love the beginning of the season and long for the end at the same time. Someday I will stop......when they plow me under. Hang in there guys, spring is coming.


On year 30 or so myself...kinda lost count! I keep saying the same thing...spring is coming...then the real issues will rear there ugly head!


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## Mike_C (Feb 9, 2014)

ProTouchGrounds;1958239 said:


> Well, I wasn't always like this. It really crept up on me the last couple years. I remember being enthusiastic about winter, getting to plow and be out at all hours. But now, I LOATHE plowing!
> 
> I fantasize about what it would be like to sit in my living room with a hot cup of coffee and just stare out the window watching the snow fall without having to worry about getting the route done. Not have to worry about whether employees will show up or break something. Will the trucks make it through the storm untouched? Are we really only going to get the 1-3" they called for or are will we get 6"+ with 1-2' drifts (yes we did btw).
> 
> ...


You're around the age I was when the "fun" of plowing wore off, 38 now and I still hate it. A lot of guys who are solo op's don't understand the massive headaches. If it was just me I wouldn't stress, but bringing in a ton of guys every storm, trying to figure out when the best time to go out is, worrying about if I have to send out a couple guys to salt refreeze on a cold night after a day of melting. I scaled back snow removal years ago and it was the best thing I ever do, I'm less miserable in the winters now than I was before that...but I still hate doing snow. Right now we're in the middle of getting a storm, nothing major (2-3") but still would rather spend the night home with the wife and kids over dealing with this crap. Not to mention not really being able to plan vacations in the winter, I haven't even been down to my shore house since the week between Christmas & New Years. Look forward to the month of March when things settle down a little until sh*t hits the fan in April


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I feel the same way.I'm going to downsize next year. My weak link is finding reliable sidewalk workers.I'm going to drop lots with lots of sidewalks.The anxiety of pre storm prep eats me alive lol.Started plowing in 1988 and it went from making 400$ to 10K per storm.I feel trapped by the big bucks lol.Last year I paid out 23 k to my subs.I should just go back to a simple ,easy to manage schedule.Anyone want some accounts?.On second thought.......... the $$$$$$


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## UltraLwn&Lndscp (Oct 20, 2013)

My only confession is that I am tired of all the lazy residential guys leaving snow in the road, or "taking it down the road." I have been "taking it back" to the end of their clients driveways for the last few days. Beware if you plow in the SW suburbs of Rochester, I will leave a 2 foot wall in your customers driveway. The only reason is it is a safety concern for others using the road. :hide: Can I get a big 10-4?


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## dieseld (Dec 30, 2005)

What a relief. I thought I was the only one to have these thoughts.


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## snoworks1 (Jul 11, 2009)

ProTouchGrounds;1958239 said:


> Well, I wasn't always like this. It really crept up on me the last couple years. I remember being enthusiastic about winter, getting to plow and be out at all hours. But now, I LOATHE plowing!
> 
> I fantasize about what it would be like to sit in my living room with a hot cup of coffee and just stare out the window watching the snow fall without having to worry about getting the route done. Not have to worry about whether employees will show up or break something. Will the trucks make it through the storm untouched? Are we really only going to get the 1-3" they called for or are will we get 6"+ with 1-2' drifts (yes we did btw).
> 
> ...


LOL - Come back to me in 18 years and tell me how you feel about plowing.

In my case, all you mentioned does cross my mind from time to time. Especially the days when you have break downs or things don't go as planed, etc., but in a nut shell plowing is still a great money maker for me so it is what it is.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I'm 44, been plowing and cutting grass full time for 20 years. I have all the same feelings as the OP, and the others, I get tired of cutting grass in Sept. too.I think that's human nature.

I just keep telling myself that I get paid to listen to the radio, whatever else I'm doing at the time is irrelevant. And I make way more $$ then working 40 hours at a soul-less,thankless job.

As a Christian, I know that this is the ministry that The Lord put me in. To help the elderly,widows, disabled, and others.


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

I'll be honest, I too HATE plowing any more. Between the blown forecasts, (every forecast) unrealistic expectations, extreme weather and prices of, well, everything It's just not worth it any more. We've been beat down and then some this year with only a few calls (complaints) and they were minor so I guess we're doing something right but NEVER AGAIN will we do all inclusive contracts! Our salt went from 78/ton last year to 143.00/ton this year and now just got told salt now is 180.00/ton..are you fing kidding me! Thank God we run liquid too. It's all just becoming a real pita! Sorry for the all other the place comments but I swear Ive lost my mind this year, I don't even know what day it is any more, It's thursday right?


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## Rick547 (Oct 9, 2009)

All vocations have their downsides. I'm 67 years old and pretty close to being 68. I love to plow snow but I'm new to this type work compared to the rest of you. It is more a hobby and something to get me out of the house in the winter. I'm also building up equipment in case my grandson decides to go into his own business out of college. 

I remember many a time in my former vocations. I thought I had had it and wanted to do something different but after looking at my situations. It was a great job and yes it had it up and downs but all in all I truly love it. It was rewarding and disappointing at the same time but I felt I was making a difference. Once I retired. I took the attitude that it was time to turn the page and find something else to keep me busy. I've done the two months a year in Florida but the wife missed the grandkids. They were all into sports and she would miss all the basketball they were playing. So life is a bunch of compromising and finding a way to keep yourself busy and satisfied and in most of your cases. Keeping the bills paid. So step back and smell the roses and decide if your vocation is for you. If not, find one that is rewarding and will pay the bills and move forward.


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## bswalks (Dec 9, 2010)

After over 25 years, I finally gave it up this year. Too many long nights & too much stress. 

It was one of the best decisions I ever made. I'm loving life right now, and can do what I want in the winter months, without worrying about an impending storm.


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## Dewey (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm with you... I have been plowing 30 + years..... I almost get sick the first storm of the year and just do it because after that...... I think with this is my last year I have put things in motion with my other bizz to keep me busy year round... I can't wait to sit and watch the snow fall next year !!!!


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

I love plowing snow. Just the plowing part. It's all the other stuff that turns it into a nightmare sometimes. Forecasts, employees, equipment, materials, etc. 

I tried to give it up last winter when I moved from Athens to Wooster, and I just about lost my mind in the process watching it snow and not being able to plow. I'm not too much younger than you. Been at it since 06, and after trying once to give it up, I don't see walking away any time soon.


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I'd take this job over almost any other...i will bust a$$ for 4 months as long as I can fish all spring, spend 4 or 5 days a week on the lake up north sipping cockys and making slow laps around the lake and hunt in the fall. Being over-prepared is the key...yeah its stressful..but I couldn't imagine working 9-5 for 12 months a year, I'd go nuts... we, and by that I mean not me, cut grass to maintain the relationships yr round,


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## WilliamOak (Feb 11, 2008)

It's not the plowing it's the stupidity that gets Ya. Operators getting stuck calling for diesel when they're running on fumes not when they have a 1/4tank like you tell them, idiot drivers, ******* property managers asshat tenants etc.


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## V_Scapes (Jan 1, 2011)

Im about the same age (26) and i feel the same this year. last year i was balls to the walls with snow removal since we had a block buster year and really got rolling with over 30 resis and a few commercials. This year i could care less. I bought a large piece of property with an old farm house im trying to renovate to live in in a few weeks and everytime i make progress on the house it snows. everyone knows you lose 3 days to a snowstorm. so i feel like i cant get anything done other than plowing and getting ready for the next storm. i like the money and the actual work but it only takes those few customers that call and ask when your coming every storm to make life miserable. 
In december and january it barely snowed here, just a few saltings, and i remember wishing that it would stay that way. but i got quite a few years to go so oh well.


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## snowngo (Nov 11, 2014)

TKLAWN;1958284 said:


> I feel the same way.
> I think it's the lead up to the snow I hate the most.
> 
> Will it snow or not, when will it stop.
> ...


Same here.


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## Flawless440 (Dec 6, 2010)

Hate it.... 34 years old, been in the game since 13 doing walkways for a small company my moms boyfriend worked at.

Love the equipment and trucks, hate the cold weather, hate dealing with the help.

Still have a Florida plan exit coming up soon.. (which i say every year)

Now i find what keeps me interested is trying to further my education in the industry.. 
Working on my ISA arborist cert. (struggling with the test)
ICPI Harscape Cert.
ETC.


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## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

UltraLwn&Lndscp;1958361 said:


> My only confession is that I am tired of all the lazy residential guys leaving snow in the road, or "taking it down the road." I have been "taking it back" to the end of their clients driveways for the last few days. Beware if you plow in the SW suburbs of Rochester, I will leave a 2 foot wall in your customers driveway. The only reason is it is a safety concern for others using the road. :hide: Can I get a big 10-4?


10-4

That happens here too much, thats just about as inconsiderate as you can get, leaving snow on the road - no excuse.


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## Mark13 (Dec 3, 2006)

My biggest gripe lately is cold with no snow. If it's not going to snow can it atleast be nice so doing things outside isn't miserable? 
Another thing I don't like about it is the amount of salt the midwest uses and the effect it has on everything driven on the roads in the winter. Want to have a nice truck, trailer, or other piece of equipment? Better wash it 24/7 and still expect to find rust in a few years. I'm jealous of those in states without salt, weather they get snow or not and how much longer things last them and how much cleaner they say.


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Rick547;1958380 said:


> All vocations have their downsides. I'm 67 years old and pretty close to being 68. I love to plow snow but I'm new to this type work compared to the rest of you. It is more a hobby and something to get me out of the house in the winter. I'm also building up equipment in case my grandson decides to go into his own business out of college.
> 
> I remember many a time in my former vocations. I thought I had had it and wanted to do something different but after looking at my situations. It was a great job and yes it had it up and downs but all in all I truly love it. It was rewarding and disappointing at the same time but I felt I was making a difference. Once I retired. I took the attitude that it was time to turn the page and find something else to keep me busy. I've done the two months a year in Florida but the wife missed the grandkids. They were all into sports and she would miss all the basketball they were playing. So life is a bunch of compromising and finding a way to keep yourself busy and satisfied and in most of your cases. Keeping the bills paid. So step back and smell the roses and decide if your vocation is for you. If not, find one that is rewarding and will pay the bills and move forward.


good advice!


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## hellion (Aug 8, 2011)

edgeair;1959398 said:


> 10-4
> 
> That happens here too much, thats just about as inconsiderate as you can get, leaving snow on the road - no excuse.


Residential properties have no monopoly on that! One of my commercial accounts is adjacent to $ 20 million customs/border patrol facility (about 4 acres ) and they (govt. facility ) or their contractor is pushing a large amount of snow onto the state route next door to my customer's facilities. My customer isn't happy with them. What are you going to do? That's a bull that I wouldn't want the horn from. I don't know if the Hwy. Dept. or Sheriff could or would do anything about it. I know that I'm not making the call!


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## wrtenterprises (Mar 10, 2001)

If all I had to do was track the storm, provide guidance and supervision, and sit in a piece of equipment to "plow" I would have the best job in the world!!! However, that, like for most here, is not the case. The worst is when you stop at a convenience store and over hear one of the state or local plow operators discussing how hard it is to plow for 10-12 hrs is, when you know the only reasons they get out of their truck is bathroom break, shoot the bull, food/drink. 

When you have 6-12 hrs or more of hard labor in harsh conditions starring you in the face, money is my only motivator. I picked high end resi snow removal, and it has been very good to me. But it comes with its own specific set of problems like all service work does. The lack of quality time off is what I really miss, even when I do go on vacation, I'm not totally relaxed because the weather, business, and most of all, employee issues never stop.


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## Kevin_NJ (Jul 24, 2003)

Biggest downside for me is the stress from the idiots on the road.
I am also jealous of areas that don't deal with the massive amounts of salt they use here.


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

ProTouchGrounds;1958239 said:


> Well, I wasn't always like this. It really crept up on me the last couple years. I remember being enthusiastic about winter, getting to plow and be out at all hours. But now, I LOATHE plowing!
> 
> I fantasize about what it would be like to sit in my living room with a hot cup of coffee and just stare out the window watching the snow fall without having to worry about getting the route done. Not have to worry about whether employees will show up or break something. Will the trucks make it through the storm untouched? Are we really only going to get the 1-3" they called for or are will we get 6"+ with 1-2' drifts (yes we did btw).
> 
> ...


I'm the same age as you, and agree with pretty much every word. We had a brutal winter last year and knew I couldn't go through it again so I scaled back some and have not regretted it one bit.

I agree with when I see guys saying bring it on to the big snows. I never could figure that one out. I guess if you are one man show with a couple driveways and small lot or two and no sidewalks it wouldn't be too bad.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I love being out in the storm.

I've been the snow business seance 1980 at 18yr old.
Out on my own and over a thousand miles from home.
Been smaller and bigger.
Smaller is much easer.
But then I'm very close to retiring,
And enjoying the storm recreationally .

Did I say I love being out in the storm...

If it wasn't for that....


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Well after a couple day break, looking back at my comments I will say....I don't hate it but I still don't like it much either lol. I guess the things that bother me the most is the relentless storms we've had for the past couple years. Last year we were the snowiest city in America and this year same thing until about a week ago. If it snowed 3,4,6,or hell even 12" then stop for a week or so that would be great but it's just been non stop for 2 seasons now.


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## Snow tracker (Jan 31, 2014)

Started plowing snow at age 13 with a four wheeler. Now I'm 41 and still plowing, not with the same four wheeler. Lol. I'm a small operation though, I can see the down side of being to large. For me it's stressful wondering if any clients are pissed that I'm not there yet, but it's good money so I put up with the little stress, besides stress it what you make it. No matter what you do there will be downsides. 

If I bought all the companies who were sick of snow I would have the start of a pretty nice NATIONAL. Oh wait everyone hates them except the companies they serve.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

procut;1959986 said:


> I'm the same age as you, and agree with pretty much every word. We had a brutal winter last year and knew I couldn't go through it again so I scaled back some and have not regretted it one bit.
> 
> I agree with when I see guys saying bring it on to the big snows. I never could figure that one out. I guess if you are one man show with a couple driveways and small lot or two and no sidewalks it wouldn't be too bad.


I'm seriously considering downsizing,glad it worked out for you.How much did you downsize?


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## Plowtoy (Dec 15, 2001)

ProTouchGrounds;1958239 said:


> Well, I wasn't always like this. It really crept up on me the last couple years. I remember being enthusiastic about winter, getting to plow and be out at all hours. But now, I LOATHE plowing!
> 
> I fantasize about what it would be like to sit in my living room with a hot cup of coffee and just stare out the window watching the snow fall without having to worry about getting the route done. Not have to worry about whether employees will show up or break something. Will the trucks make it through the storm untouched? Are we really only going to get the 1-3" they called for or are will we get 6"+ with 1-2' drifts (yes we did btw).
> 
> ...


Im right there with you! This is my second season of being a one man show and I couldn't be happier! Have just enough work to make it worth while to go out and no real headaches because of it. I kept all my higher end stuff and gave up all but one commercial who never complains and pays well.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Plowtoy;1960086 said:


> Im right there with you! .... of being a one man show and I couldn't be happier!
> 
> Have just enough work to make it worth while to go out and no real headaches because of it. I kept all my higher end stuff and gave up all but one commercial who never complains and pays well.


Each season, I eliminate those who create headaches, and usually pick up another to replace them. keeping it small makes me happy, allows me to service each account multiple times, and make my bank account a little bigger. Keeping it small makes it manageable and reinforces my enjoyment of doing this each year. My mexican (I call my wife my mexican ) is my only employee, so I get to spend "quality time" with her as well...:laughing:

Everyone laughs their asses off when I call her "my mexican" when she's standing in front of them. Considering she's a palefaced irish woman, they find the irony amusing...


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## procut (Dec 1, 2004)

leigh;1960063 said:


> I'm seriously considering downsizing,glad it worked out for you.How much did you downsize?


Basically got rid of one big account. It was really hard as it was my biggest snow account, I had done it for a long time, and I had a really good relationship with them; it had basically got to the point where I could charge whatever (to some extent) and they would never question it.

The bad part was it was a super demanding 24 hour operation with NO place to put the snow. They basically could not understand that. Their solution was to push three acres of snow to one spot across the street. Not practical or even legal for that matter. The biggest hold up was it was 35 miles one way from where I keep my trucks. Having something this big and demanding so far away is why I said to heck with it.

Also did a handful of gas stations as a sub and and got rid of them. No love loss there, wasn't that much money and they were a giant pain.

Ended up getting a few new accounts all within a couple miles of the office. Just about made up for the lost revenue with far less hassle and stress.

Like I said I do not regret it one bit. I was absolutely miserable last winter. This year has been so much better. Granted we have had far less snow than last year, but still. I have actually had the thought cross my mind to downsize even a little more, but am pretty happy with where I'm at.

If you find yourself hating the snow game I have a few things I discovered that help. Keep your routes as local and tight as possible. I did the travel 70 miles round trip to plow an account, never again. Avoid sidewalks whenever possible. They're a pain to do, especially in big snows and good sidewalk guys can be extremely difficult to find. Go after accounts that are "low priority" ie. Churches, restaurants that don't serve breakfast, funeral homes, ect.


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## 94gt331 (Oct 21, 2011)

Brian Young;1960024 said:


> Well after a couple day break, looking back at my comments I will say....I don't hate it but I still don't like it much either lol. I guess the things that bother me the most is the relentless storms we've had for the past couple years. Last year we were the snowiest city in America and this year same thing until about a week ago. If it snowed 3,4,6,or hell even 12" then stop for a week or so that would be great but it's just been non stop for 2 seasons now.


I see your up northern pa in the snow belt, I'm in central pa and we deffinatly don't get snow like you guys up there. I would probaly get sick of constant snow like you guys get. Constantly having to buy salt, work on trucks, getting out of bed early everyday to check for snow, and even trying to find places for snow when it keeps snowing. Down here about 3-4 hours from you everyone makes a big deal of a 1-3 inch snow haha. I enjoy the snow removal game because for us we don't have anything in the winter to really make a decent living so I am thankful for snow. We have enough accounts in our operation to have a sucessful snow buisiness, the problem we just don't get enough snow here at least yet for us to really make a mad bank. So I'm just used to trying to keep the bills paid and the stress is there but not as bad as alot of you guys up north around the great lakes. Good luck to you and hopefully you can get to a happy medium at some point in your future.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

procut;1960378 said:


> Basically got rid of one big account. It was really hard as it was my biggest snow account, I had done it for a long time, and I had a really good relationship with them; it had basically got to the point where I could charge whatever (to some extent) and they would never question it.
> 
> The bad part was it was a super demanding 24 hour operation with NO place to put the snow. They basically could not understand that. Their solution was to push three acres of snow to one spot across the street. Not practical or even legal for that matter. The biggest hold up was it was 35 miles one way from where I keep my trucks. Having something this big and demanding so far away is why I said to heck with it.
> 
> ...


Good advice.I did get rid of 5 jobs last year(about 14 hrs of plowing) and tightened up route.I asked my sidewalk crew to rate the jobs in order of which ones they hate to do.You're right,sidewalks are a pain,tough to get regular help when needed.I raised my pricing and that didn't get rid of any jobs!.I think I'll wait to aug and see how things look,don't want to make an emotional decision.Thanx


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Okay...here is my problem

I have town house association I do. 30 units with 2 drives each on the south side of a lake. Snow likes to build drifts on the drives and walks often 3 foot deep. Plowing is tight. But if you know how to plow it takes you 2-4 hours. I make $ 800.00 that includes walks.

My guys hate it. Lots of back dragging. Thinking of switching to skid steers or dropping it.

I have had the account for 7 years.

Should I drop it ?


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## Pit Crew (Mar 19, 2014)

Unlike most guys, I`m not in the landscaping bus. I do mostly residential construction. Try to do bath and kitchen remodels in the winter months. Everything in summer months. I have one truck. Keep about a 4 hr route with 2" triger, no salting.The big snows 8" and above, I can stay busy all day picking up x-tras. Plow my route and then go to work. Makes for a nice days wage.Try to keep late model truck, so break downs are very rare if any at all. Been doing it this way for 20 years.love the snow. Everybody talks about expenses like truck ins.,maint. Fuel etc. I have to have the truck anyways,so not a problem. Love the x-tra cash, love the snow and plowing. If your trying to make a living in this game, I can see the headache`s and employee problems.No thanks.


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## YardMedic (Nov 29, 2006)

I hate to stir the pot, but what's with the 26 year old guys who are burned out with the business? 

I find the stress of commercial work bothers me most right now, even just as a solo operator. Residential is what I enjoy most, despite having so many more people to deal with than a handful of commercial contacts. Next year I'll be all residential again with a couple less driveways & no more walkways.


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## Glenn Lawn Care (Sep 28, 2009)

I still like plowing snow at 28 years old. I can never sleep when I know we are gonna get snow and if I do its for only about 2-3 hours max.


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## NLMCT (Nov 15, 2013)

leigh;1958331 said:


> I feel the same way.I'm going to downsize next year. My weak link is finding reliable sidewalk workers.I'm going to drop lots with lots of sidewalks.The anxiety of pre storm prep eats me alive lol.Started plowing in 1988 and it went from making 400$ to 10K per storm.I feel trapped by the big bucks lol.Last year I paid out 23 k to my subs.I should just go back to a simple ,easy to manage schedule.Anyone want some accounts?.On second thought.......... the $$$$$$


ill take some lol


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Interesting topic. 

I've been burned out for a good 6 seasons now. Started right around age 39-40. So I wonder if it is an age thing or an industry thing. Customers are definitely more demanding. It sure seems like the weather is more difficult to prepare for. 

I can remember early on getting maybe 2 weeks of non stop snow, the rest of the season was pretty easy. When my burnout started, we had had 3 difficult winters in a row. Over 100" each year. 2 years ago it started later and then went non-stop for a month and a half or so. Last winter started in early Dec and didn't slow down until sometime in February. 

Seems like there were only a few "late" snowfalls back then as well per year. I can remember 1 year 90% of the snow started between 3-4 AM. 2 years ago we had at least 6 times that snow stopped by 12-1 AM, we were wrapping everything up and between 5-6 AM wraparound or a burst of lake effect would come through and cover everything, salted or unsalted. I thought I was going to lose my mind that season, seriously. 

The money isn't the same, far less than it used to be. That takes a lot of the "fun" out of it. JAA turning the snow industry into a commodity has ruined pricing, as has his following up on others attempts at NSP's. There's always some other sucker that will take that job for less money. I know, part of it was the industry maturing, but when we make less money per hour than lawyers, who have far less overhead, something is wrong. 

When we're not making as much money, we have to stretch equipment further. Which equals more breakdowns. Which results in more stress. And longer days. And less money. 

Salt prices are stupid. I can remember being pissed that I had to pay $50\ton one year because a major supplier backed out on us and the allotments were sold out, so I didn't have a choice. I'd kill for $50\ton.

Finding and retaining good employees is difficult. Weather sucks. Being on call almost 24/7 sucks. Not having snow for 5 weeks sucks for everyone, but for seasonal or on call employees especially. Then we expect them to show up for a week straight. Add to that, many people don't want to work or despite telling them what this work is like, they do it for 3 or 4 days and then figure out what long hours, crappy conditions are like and decide they can't do it. 

I hate the fact that I haven't been able to take time with my kids to go snowmobiling or take a vacation in the winter or have my phone on me 24/7 or just enjoy a beautiful snowfall. It's pretty much too late for the family now, my son is 19 and my daughter is 16. I hate that their life is dictated by my job. And the inability of the NTAC's to make up their minds when throwing darts at the weather dartboard. I hate that I can't just enjoy winter, my favorite season. 

Things are turning around, for which I thank God. The last 2 winters I was not a nice person to my family, which also made me feel guilty. I'm not sure where or why the change has occurred, but I am not complaining. And there's a few PS members that think I have lost my marbles. They might be right. 

Or it's that we haven't had an extreme winter PLUS the best crew I have ever had.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I need to edit my post. 

Frickin IDIOTS at NWS. 

Yesterday all day: approx. 1" overnight, another today, another tonight, blah, blah, blah. 
Last night at 2130: 40% overnight, 1" today, inch tonight, etc.
This morning at 0600: Approx 1/2" today, inch tonight, etc.
This morning at 0730: Inch today, inch tonight (ended up with about a half inch and sunshine more often than not)
This afternoon: up to an inch today, about an inch tonight, etc. 
20 minutes ago: 2 inches tonight, 2 inches tomorrow, etc. 

It truly is amazing more weather guessing NTAC's don't get shot. Especially by snowplowers.


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## JTVLandscaping (Jan 1, 2010)

I was just thinking myself about downsizing. Over the years of dropping customers, I've noticed my route is spread out to much. Add on that I have one site with 45 minutes of walkways. As a solo op, with no help I've landed in a big rut. Not enough work to hire help and still make money, but need help to expand past where I am now. My worst fear came true on Sunday when I was cleaning the snow off the truck and I came down suddenly with the stomach flu. Tried to work but wound up passing out. Thankfully my dad took my truck and picked up my brother-in-law and they handled my two bigger accounts. My saving grace was that the news made such a big deal about the brutal cold and wind that nobody had to go anywhere, so my driveways could wait until I could get away from the bathroom and drag myself into the truck for a couple hours. Since then I've really been thinking about next year. I think I'll only keep a couple driveways and drop the sites with the walkways. A few years ago I scaled my mowing back to only 3 lawns and since then I've really gotten it more solid. I think I'll save enough money going into winter next year so I can almost clean my plowing slate too. When it snows every couple of days there's no time for sick days. Tough winter for sure.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Things weren't as demanding 20 years ago. There was no Sunday shopping and everyone didn't expect everything black. My dad started plowing a mall I still have today in 1973. He used roughly 20 ton of bags the first few years. On sat morning as kids we could go away snowmobiling with my parents up north or where ever as if it snowed basically everything was closed Sunday so if it snowed it didn't matter until Monday morning. That 20 ton of salt is now around 200 ton. People all had rear wheel drive cars basically back in the day and now everyone had 4wd or front wheel drive and they seem to have more trouble getting around. People also use to dress for winter and most people were brought up to be honest and respect others. To many people looking for easy money. That being said all snow contractors aren't created equal and if I wasnt so picky about how everything is done I think my life would be a lot easier.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;1961152 said:


> Things weren't as demanding 20 years ago. There was no Sunday shopping and everyone didn't expect everything black. My dad started plowing a mall I still have today in 1973. He used roughly 20 ton of bags the first few years. On sat morning as kids we could go away snowmobiling with my parents up north or where ever as if it snowed basically everything was closed Sunday so if it snowed it didn't matter until Monday morning. That 20 ton of salt is now around 200 ton. People all had rear wheel drive cars basically back in the day and now everyone had 4wd or front wheel drive and they seem to have more trouble getting around. People also use to dress for winter and most people were brought up to be honest and respect others. To many people looking for easy money. That being said all snow contractors aren't created equal and *if I wasnt so picky* about how everything is done I think my life would be a lot easier.


Might explain the lack of hair................

Very well said Dave, and all points are dead on.

Seems like people are stupider when it comes to driving and properly equipping their cars. Front wheel drive means they don't need to buy tyres with decent traction to begin with and don't worry about them until they're bald. Back in the day, pretty much everyone had snow tyres installed for winter driving, and people made it through the same amounts of snow.

I can still remember when the first grocery store opened on Sunday. Before that, there was a handful of gas stations, Dunkin Donuts and *****'s.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Basically boils down to doing more for less......More stress....Less Money...



Basically have to thank Marks Buddy John Allin and NSPs for setting this wonderful standard the industry sees nowadays....


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

I remember doing a Large Mall in Oakland county in the early eightys...Windrowing the snow....Very little salt....Sundays were a cake walk due to the fact they did not open till noon.....I know for a fact the company doing it today is doing it for less then when we did it 30 years ago....


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

I'd like to punch the guy straight in the throat who thought we needed Sunday shopping. Sunday was suppose to be a family day for church or anything family related. Now it's just another day of the week. Most people live on a budget so if they can't buy it on Sunday they will get it the other 6 days of the week.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Defcon 5;1961173 said:


> I remember doing a Large Mall in Oakland county in the early eightys...Windrowing the snow....Very little salt....Sundays were a cake walk due to the fact they did not open till noon.....I know for a fact the company doing it today is doing it for less then when we did it 30 years ago....


I didn't even know they had Ventrac's back then


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;1961178 said:


> I'd like to punch the guy straight in the throat who thought we needed Sunday shopping. Sunday was suppose to be a family day for church or anything family related. Now it's just another day of the week. Most people live on a budget so if they can't buy it on Sunday they will get it the other 6 days of the week.


Another like.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

JD Dave;1961178 said:


> I'd like to punch the guy straight in the throat who thought we needed Sunday shopping. Sunday was suppose to be a family day for church or anything family related. Now it's just another day of the week. Most people live on a budget so if they can't buy it on Sunday they will get it the other 6 days of the week.


Punch him in the throat.............:laughing:

We are starting to show our age......Nothing was open on sundays when I was a kid.....Nothing.... and only 5 TV channels to boot........


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## spencers (Nov 14, 2014)

I love plowing snow and don't think I'll ever quit until I'm dead or can't drive. haha Just wish we had snow this year in UTAH


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

JD Dave;1961180 said:


> I didn't even know they had Ventrac's back then


:laughing:......They were called Steiners.......:laughing:


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

I will say I'm not tired of plowing. I run a small operation with 3 guy's more as the snowfall increases. All have been with me for 10 years plus. It's nice knowing things get done no double checking no call backs for service. Most of my accounts I have had for 10 to 20 years. I deal with the buildings owner so no middle man. If I do get a call most time I already know about the concern. The biggest drive now is my boys 7,8,and 11. I enjoy watching them learn the business as I did at there ages. They know how much salt is needed to get the lots done. How to run ALL the equipment skidsteer, loader and plow trucks


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## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

I think some of you guys should trade your plow trucks in for wambulances.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;1961180 said:


> I didn't even know they had Ventrac's back then


Hesston's

That's a name you should recognize.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

JD Dave;1961152 said:


> Things weren't as demanding 20 years ago. There was no Sunday shopping and everyone didn't expect everything black. My dad started plowing a mall I still have today in 1973. He used roughly 20 ton of bags the first few years. On sat morning as kids we could go away snowmobiling with my parents up north or where ever as if it snowed basically everything was closed Sunday so if it snowed it didn't matter until Monday morning. That 20 ton of salt is now around 200 ton. People all had rear wheel drive cars basically back in the day and now everyone had 4wd or front wheel drive and they seem to have more trouble getting around. People also use to dress for winter and most people were brought up to be honest and respect others. To many people looking for easy money. That being said all snow contractors aren't created equal and if I wasnt so picky about how everything is done I think my life would be a lot easier.


I can't believe how low snow years contribute to population increases in your family...

When I first started plowing we only moved snow during storms. Sanding was done on sunny days to add grit to the hard park when it started melting. People parked their cars at the end of their drives, so they could walk out and only have to clear a little bit at the end to get on the road and not be late for work.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Steiners. LOL I know the name Hesston but only think of a baler. Hmmm Markus could be on to something. My wife wants nothing to do with me when it's snowing constantly.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

Longae29;1961210 said:


> I think some of you guys should trade your plow trucks in for wambulances.


There it is! I was actually expecting alot more of these comments but I'm surprised how many feel similar to the way I do.

I think Mark O's original post hit a lot of key points as to why the industry is where it is today. The prices for the work has dropped causing us to spend more money on more efficient equipment and push equipment harder.

Salt that we were paying 72 a ton delivered for is now 180ton because of some so called shortage. Absolute BS. I've seen the piles down at the lakeshore, and no one seems to have any issue getting the salt, there is plenty of supply, just gotta pay what they are asking.

And a lil update from that storm this weekend, employee backed into a garage, brother tapped a light post and did some damage to our liquid unit, but managed to shift the axle on the passenger side 3" forward. The leaf spring actually stretched out where it bolts to the shackle. Thats what the momentum of having an almost full 500 gallon liquid tank will do. But hey, sh!t happens lol. And we have been re-locating piles since the frigid temps seem to be sticking around for awhile.


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## Grantski (Jan 26, 2015)

This was my first year plowing and it took 2 storms for me to realize everything bad ive heard about plowing is true LOL !! Being on the roads at night in white out conditions was one I wasnt prepared for - along w everything else it really worked my nerves. First storm 18"+ and my 4WD went out couldnt plow w the storm...15 accounts and 4 were new so I was pretty much going into them blind. Somehow managed to push all 15 drives with the full 18" w 2-4 ft drifts but of course got stuck almost every driveaway. Lots of shoveling out - my nerves and back were shot for a week. Still managed to average $100 an hour but it was a HARD $100 an hour pretty much like Plowing Boot Camp !!! My plan next year is the same as my plan for lawn accounts : drop pain in the ass driveways & customers : consolidate route : take easy accounts that wont tear up my truck : any new accounts price very HIGH so theyre worth the hassle.


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## oarwhat (Nov 29, 2005)

JD Dave;1961152 said:


> Things weren't as demanding 20 years ago. There was no Sunday shopping and everyone didn't expect everything black. My dad started plowing a mall I still have today in 1973. He used roughly 20 ton of bags the first few years. On sat morning as kids we could go away snowmobiling with my parents up north or where ever as if it snowed basically everything was closed Sunday so if it snowed it didn't matter until Monday morning. That 20 ton of salt is now around 200 ton. People all had rear wheel drive cars basically back in the day and now everyone had 4wd or front wheel drive and they seem to have more trouble getting around. People also use to dress for winter and most people were brought up to be honest and respect others. To many people looking for easy money. That being said all snow contractors aren't created equal and if I wasnt so picky about how everything is done I think my life would be a lot easier.


I've done a mall since 1980. Used to have Sundays off,New Years day off, and others. Store hours were like 10 till 9. We used to let 1" to 2" fluffy snows unplowed. Now we plow at 1" even though it's a 2" contract so we don't get sued!!

I'm with you on the two wheel drive cars. When they got stuck you could easily push them out. I still remember trying to push the first front wheel drives cars out. They keep going until they're on top of the snow. They're impossible to get out. My guys are instructed to look the other way.

End of rant


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## MSsnowplowing (Nov 1, 2012)

I started downsizing this year dropping one area and next year I will only be in two towns.
Tired of the driving and dealing with the knuckleheads on the roads.
My new rule is the 15 minutes rule.
If I can't get there in 15 minutes during a bad snow storm, then I don't take the contract.
Less driving, less stress, more timely service and happy clients.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

ProTouchGrounds;1958239 said:


> Definitely going to downsize our plowing for next year, tighten the route and only do the accounts that are incidental to our other year round services.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Loganab13 (Jan 15, 2014)

We're in the processing of removing 95% of our residential. The added stress of homeowners who think they should be the first ones serviced, regardless of what their contract states, has really worked on me these last few years. The list goes on & on as well. I would much prefer the relatively long, straight pushes that are normally associated with commercial plowing than deal with countless drives. All that being said, I still wouldn't give plowing up for anything. It may be stressful at times, but it keeps the winters much more exciting


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

Loganab13;1962348 said:


> We're in the processing of removing 95% of our residential. The added stress of homeowners who think they should be the first ones serviced, regardless of what their contract states, has really worked on me these last few years. The list goes on & on as well. I would much prefer the relatively long, straight pushes that are normally associated with commercial plowing than deal with countless drives. All that being said, I still wouldn't give plowing up for anything. It may be stressful at times, but it keeps the winters much more exciting


It might seem crazy, but sometimes I think about giving up all my commercials and just me and a couple guys do strictly our resi work.....for me the resi is the less stressful side of the snow biz for us....and requires a fraction of the overhead. On top of this, for "plowing only", the resi work produces a higher profit, percentage wise. But of course we turn more money with the commercials, due to volume of work, & salting.

I'm to a point where I really don't want to grow much more, unless 1 of my "key guys" is willing to step up to the plate and assume "more responsibility"....or I find someone new, to come in, and help me manage.....I'm still enjoying the snow side of the biz....and I'd like to keep it that way.


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## Loganab13 (Jan 15, 2014)

snocrete;1962379 said:


> It might seem crazy, but sometimes I think about giving up all my commercials and just me and a couple guys do strictly our resi work.....for me the resi is the less stressful side of the snow biz for us....and requires a fraction of the overhead. On top of this, for "plowing only", the resi work produces a higher profit, percentage wise. But of course we turn more money with the commercials, due to volume of work, & salting.
> 
> I'm to a point where I really don't want to grow much more, unless 1 of my "key guys" is willing to step up to the plate and assume "more responsibility"....or I find someone new, to come in, and help me manage.....I'm still enjoying the snow side of the biz....and I'd like to keep it that way.


I can definitely see the points you made, & understand that aspect of things as well. In my situation, 90% of our resi's are NOT "plow only". Our customers are willing to pay a premium to have walks cleared, but at some point, when weighing the benefits of a slightly higher profit margins due to clearing these walks, I still don't feel as though our resi's are nearly as profitable as our commercial accounts. I'm still young & still really enjoy the snow biz, & would also like to keep it that way.. it's just at some point, as a business owner, you have to sit down & weigh the pro's & con's of your operation & go from there.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Loganab13;1962387 said:


> I can definitely see the points you made, & understand that aspect of things as well. In my situation, 90% of our resi's are NOT "plow only". Our customers are willing to pay a premium to have walks cleared, but at some point, when weighing the benefits of a slightly higher profit margins due to clearing these walks, I still don't feel as though our resi's are nearly as profitable as our commercial accounts. I'm still young & still really enjoy the snow biz, & would also like to keep it that way.. it's just at some point, as a business owner, you have to sit down & weigh the pro's & con's of your operation & go from there.


I went from 50 to 6 ,5 yrs ago on Res. 
Focus on Com. I thought I screwed up but now I see it was a good thing.
I wouldn't have none but them 6 owns lots I clean. 
Plus the market on Res. has drop bad is what I hear from the guy I sold mine to.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

I enjoy plowing and winter in general. I just got back from a few days in the upper peninsula of Mich snowmobiling. We left Saturday morning in the snow, heard the bridge was closed from high winds but made it across to find out our route (m28) was closed so we drove across the U.P. in blizzard and white out conditions picking our way around the closed roads and made it to Baraga in 14 hrs. Coming home we drove through Munising and Marquette where one of the roads was closed and they got hammered. I was thinking that things could be worse then the little bit of snow I get and have to plow, I could live there. I believe they currently have more snow then anyone in a certain size city at around 150". And my point is as much as love winter, plowing and snowmobiling I don't want to live there.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

LapeerLandscape;1962948 said:


> I enjoy plowing and winter in general. I just got back from a few days in the upper peninsula of Mich snowmobiling. We left Saturday morning in the snow, heard the bridge was closed from high winds but made it across to find out our route (m28) was closed so we drove across the U.P. in blizzard and white out conditions picking our way around the closed roads and made it to Baraga in 14 hrs. Coming home we drove through Munising and Marquette where one of the roads was closed and they got hammered. I was thinking that things could be worse then the little bit of snow I get and have to plow, I could live there. I believe they currently have more snow then anyone in a certain size city at around 150".


That's kool I been there in summer 1 year seen that sign. 
A local guy showed us around one trail we was on with ATVs. 
Showed us where he tied flags to a tree to show depth. The top flag was 8-10' above us. I like to get there to ride in the winter time, so hard get away from town to far.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Wow sounds like I should quit while I still can!


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## Bison (Dec 20, 2010)

Been doing it 29 years , I don't mind doing it but I would never say I enjoy it, it's work. Working by myself helps keep my sanity. Only do resi's(48) and have built a nice tight route over the years and weeded out the unreasonable clients to lower the stress.

Mark me as +1 for a throat punch to the guy who started Sunday shopping


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## excav8ter (Oct 7, 2009)

I started following my dad in his '78 Chevy Blazer when i was 15. He drove our 544B JD loader cleaning out truck docks for a few friends. I would clean up after him. When i turned 16, i bought his Blazer and took over his small plow route, and eventually took on a few more small places. I enjoyed plowing until i was about 32 or so. We owned a Komatsu WA180 that we used for dirt work, and a friend offered me a good route for it, with a 12' protech pusher, which he supplied. I did that for a few years and loved it. Sold the loader after we were not using it much for dirt work. Got back into a pick up, had a great route, but i worked alone, so no days off, no back up and no relief. Iwas pretty worn out and sick of sitting in a pick up to plow with.Now, i have a business partner and 2 great guys who work for us, we run two trucks with Boss V's up front and 14' Eblings out back and i run a New Holland TL100A Deluxe with a Normand 92-280 inverted blower. The tractor/blower has breathed new life into me.... once again, i LOVE snow work. We are focusing on a tight route now and adding another tractor/blower for next year.


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

I'm still on the fence with all this. No question, it's blood money. Like others have said....it's work. I am a self employed builder/ carpenter so winter is difficult. Plowing fills inthe blanks so to speak.
The latest hiccup is freakin insurance. I have to renew by March. My old ins.is not renewing. Never had a claim in almost 30 years of plowing.they are just getting out of the game. The new deal is ridiculous....they want sq.footage of all my lots...2 pages of questions that I must sign, and best of all 2500 bucks for a 2 truck,1 man, 15 lot operation. Kinda tacking the fun out of it.
I could go on for ever...but who's listening; we make huge $$$$ right?


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

ratherbfishin;1964665 said:


> ...and best of all 2500 bucks for a 2 truck,1 man, 15 lot operation.
> I could complain forever...but who's listening; we make huge $$$$ right?


Your insurance pricing is CHEAP. Be glad it's only $2500


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## snowngo (Nov 11, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1961184 said:


> Another like.


So much for freedom of choice and letting the market decide. some libertarian you are ussmileyflag


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

snowngo;1964718 said:


> So much for freedom of choice and letting the market decide. some libertarian you are ussmileyflag


You're hilarious!


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## ratherbfishin (Aug 1, 2011)

Dogplow Dodge;1964703 said:


> Your insurance pricing is CHEAP. Be glad it's only $2500


Up till this year it was inclusive in my regular truck policy. This Renewal they are saying it has to be a separate policy from my regular ins. At a minimum of 2500 bucks!


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## mkwl (Jan 21, 2005)

V_Scapes;1959205 said:


> Im about the same age (26) and i feel the same this year. last year i was balls to the walls with snow removal since we had a block buster year and really got rolling with over 30 resis and a few commercials. This year i could care less. I bought a large piece of property with an old farm house im trying to renovate to live in in a few weeks and everytime i make progress on the house it snows. everyone knows you lose 3 days to a snowstorm. so i feel like i cant get anything done other than plowing and getting ready for the next storm. i like the money and the actual work but it only takes those few customers that call and ask when your coming every storm to make life miserable.
> In december and january it barely snowed here, just a few saltings, and i remember wishing that it would stay that way. but i got quite a few years to go so oh well.


What town did you buy in?


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

Have to agree to... love to push but it gets old quick now, 10 years on my own but close to 20 under my belt. Managing ppl and having to check there work is ridiculous. We've got a large fortune 500 company billions in sale world wide and god forbid theres 2" of snow at the emergency exit during a daytime storm? 2" wouldnt stop me from getting out, worst part is the bigger the company it seems the longer to wait for payment, just recieved December invoice on friday! Dave hit it right Black pavement so everyone can wear the high heals and dress shoes... Weather network has been alot better IMO with sometimes 4 days notice and folks still roll in late with there dress shoes on.. This same company installed new dock locks for the trailers, problem with the system is it has a key way that is bolted to the concrete pad and the wheel chocks are connected by a pivoting arm that then locks to the key way under the trailers tires, Ive seen plenty of dock locks over the years, who in the right mind would sign a PO to install a system that gets clogged with snow and ice thus rendering the system useless, We clean the docks every snow fall, but the employees would rather spend the 5 minuates sending a email about how the contractor should be scraping them out instead of just doing it... Unfortuatly today times are all about passing the buck to the next person and pointing the fingure at the guy next to you, because most ppl live pay to pay and some... 

I guess whats starting to get to me is the accountablity that ppl will not do anything extra if its not in the job title. 

Had a momment with a good buddy/neighbour during yesterdays daytime storm, who both him and his wife are teachers... he rocks up with his snowmobile as im heading out for the second time to do laneways and walks, He says man do you ever stop!!! MY reaction was, Buddy this puts food on my table for my kids, if i dont someone will sue my a$$ so they can watch the price is right all day every day!!!


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

I've been in and out of this business several times. In the past, I was solo, or sometimes have friends help with walks. Like many of you, I love plowing. It's good money and you can see instant results of your work.
I don't advertise, but continue to grow. With growth comes an increase in walks. It always seems the walks are the weak link. I also sub out some plowing. When I drive by to check properties that others have done, I either have to turn a blind eye, or clean them up myself. We've done such a good job in the past that the clients expectations are higher than they used to be.
I'm at the point where I've got an aging truck and plow and clients who want me to take on more properties. I either need to add a truck or two, and sidewalk crew, go back to just plowing, or refer other contractors. 
The forecasts this year have'nt helped at all. We get geared up for an inch and a half of snow and end up salting half or ptroperties. From the subs I either hear it was'nt worth going out, or it's more tha I can handle. 
Some of you have been over burdened with snow, for others it's been a depressing season. Every year we can't wait for snow, then are either overwelmed, or just sick of the lack of snow and cold weather.
It would be interesting to continue this thread next fall and see who's still in, who got out and who downsized.


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## Gus64 (Nov 10, 2010)

I started out shoveling/running walk behind snow blowers in my 20s: So much FUN and wow, all the extra money I made! That was 1985...

Eventually learned to plow for the hospital I worked at, then a retirement community...then a school and now a college where I'm a Grounds Manager.

I hate snow, plowing, all things that go with it. My crew and I seem to live on campus when there is a storm and afterwards deal with refreeze sometime for days afterwards because of the hills and sloped walkways of the college. We are in a forest as well and there is alot of shade. It's like a 24-7 process and even my crew, who get paid OT, cannot wait for spring to arrive!

I am 50 now and it's just not fun anymore.

I do understand where it can be a cash-cow for folks in their own business: Especially if you can offer removing snow off artificial turf fields. Let me tell you guys, you could give up all your residential accounts and just plow turf fields if you had a school or two: BIG dollars in that...


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Good to hear that there are others out there.

I plowed for many years, as a sub, for myself, having a bunch of subs, to having a bunch of my own equipment.

All of my buddy's plowed, it was great... get together at my shop or there shop, drink coffee, order pizza, drink beer and fix **** we broke... see you guys tomorrow. ah the good old days.

Then the first one of my buddy's said, screw this, I am going to watch it snow from my recliner from now on. We all said he was stupid and think of all the money he was missing.

I wanted more, so I grew, hired subs, grew more, bought all my own trucks, grew more, bought my machines... the only problem was in the end, for all the headaches, was all the bullsh*t really worth the money? Nope... quite, sold it all and god do I now love to sit on my recliner and tell the snowplowing stories.

I still help the guys fix the stuff the break from time to time when it gets beyond them, (well, mostly drink there beer) I still get out and plow every now and then when a buddy that still plows needs help in a storm or in a pinch, but I am not looking for work.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

I can't see plowing not being fun and I do it without a cab....but I've also only done it for 3 years. I can see how stupid employees and walkways ruin it, I'm wondering what Neige thinks he's been doing it for a long time and probably has had to deal with more problems than anyone on this site.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

When your equipment is running at peak performance or you find a new way to be more productive it invigorates you. 1 bad breakdown and the stress of servicing clients in a timely manner quickly turns it into a nightmare. Plan C,D,E are never fun.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

NickSnow&Mow;1966738 said:


> I can't see plowing not being fun and I do it without a cab....but I've also only done it for 3 years. I can see how stupid employees and walkways ruin it, I'm wondering what Neige thinks he's been doing it for a long time and probably has had to deal with more problems than anyone on this site.


You're only doing residential driveways. Stuff that can be done with a 2 stage snowblower walk behind if needed.

Have the portfolio some of us have and you'll see it much differently. 5 trucks, 4 skids, 2 large wheel loaders and a mini wheel loader here, covering about 50 acres in all. That can quickly turn into a ******* if people zig when they should zag. Especially when there's medical complexes, high end retail, HOA's and apartments, etc. Plus sidewalks.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

NickSnow&Mow;1966738 said:


> I can't see plowing not being fun and I do it without a cab....but I've also only done it for 3 years. I can see how stupid employees and walkways ruin it, I'm wondering what Neige thinks he's been doing it for a long time and probably has had to deal with more problems than anyone on this site.


No doubt Paul ran a huge operation. However, there are others here who ran a much larger operation. And yet others who run smaller than those 2 but still far more than an open cab tractor doing a few drives.

Expand your mind, be quiet and listen. And learn.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;1967071 said:


> No doubt Paul ran a huge operation. However, there are others here who ran a much larger operation. And yet others who run smaller than those 2 but still far more than an open cab tractor doing a few drives.
> 
> Expand your mind, be quiet and listen. And learn.


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

Plowing is the easy part. It is equipment breakdowns and getting employees to show up on time that is the problem. The nuisance snows that wont quit are the cake topper. I hate that feeling of being in limbo. Do we make another round or go home and wait for the phone to ring? Once everyone goes home good luck on getting them back.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

Italiano67;1967112 said:


> Plowing is the easy part. *It is equipment breakdowns and getting employees to show up on time that is the problem. The nuisance snows that wont quit are the cake topper*. I hate that feeling of being in limbo. Do we make another round or go home and wait for the phone to ring? Once everyone goes home good luck on getting them back.


Unfortunately plowing isn't ala carte lol. The combination of all the variables is what really starts grating on you. I mentioned that I'm 28 not for the fact of saying that I'm young, but to drive the point to some of the younger guys on here who are all gung ho about getting a huge operation going someday, that the grass isn't always greener.

I have an 8month old son that I'd much rather spend time with than be stuck in my truck hoping everything will go smoothly, no breakdowns, and wondering why that snow isn't stopping when they said it should've 3 hrs ago.

It also seems that the weather guys have been completely wrong this year. I've never seen it this bad.

I think I'm a different case because snow for us is a complementary service. I don't need to plow to stay in business. It's just something to generate revenue during the winter and that some of our clients want a year round service provider.

I'm also getting annoyed now because the snow is causing me to miss out or be really close on deadlines for bids for sitework projects. And those of you who have put together these kind of bids know how much needs to go into them at times.


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## CT-TILEMAN (Jan 3, 2009)

At 46 years old and with 28 years behind a big yellow blade I am done, moving to SC on March 15th, you guys can keep the snow.

Anyone want to buy a nice plow truck ???

Ask me after we get thru this winter, it will be my farewell to CT to winter and to snow.

Some days its just not worth the fuel, the breakage and the destruction to the truck due to the salt/liquids, etc.
This winter is brutally cold and people plain suck, they have no respect for the plow guy and its never scraped down good enough or soon enough or you didn't put enough salt down.

Whatever, go to Walmart and buy a shovel, I am done


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## Pa Teeny (Sep 15, 2006)

Been plowing for a long time as I'm 46.. 2 plow trucks...downsized a few years ago and still love plowing.. I just sold my 1996 meyers plow and bought a used 8' 2" boss v plow. 

I think I would sit at home if I quit and wonder who I should plow and wake up at 3:00 thinking I could be making money.

The only part I truly dislike is people not paying in the Spring as its 70F and no snow around...so I drop them...

I love plowing...


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Pa Teeny;1967984 said:


> Been plowing for a long time as I'm 46.. 2 plow trucks...downsized a few years ago and still love plowing.. I just sold my 1996 meyers plow and bought a used 8' 2" boss v plow.
> 
> I think I would sit at home if I quit and wonder who I should plow and wake up at 3:00 thinking I could be making money.
> 
> ...


 Good to hear someone still likes it.


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

NickSnow&Mow;1966738 said:


> I can't see plowing not being fun and I do it without a cab....but I've also only done it for 3 years. I can see how stupid employees and walkways ruin it, I'm wondering what Neige thinks he's been doing it for a long time and probably has had to deal with more problems than anyone on this site.


Like others have said, everything is all good when you get up before school, do a few driveways and everything is all good... your not working 2am till 4pm then going out to haul snow or plow again in a couple hours...

Wait till you have 5 or 10 guys working for you and your the one making the call and dealing with the stress of every call you make COSTS YOU $2,000 or more to call the guys in to plow... watching the radar like a hawk trying to get everything done and not have to plow everything twice...

Wait till you have a 100k loader sitting broken for 2 weeks with a nice 5k repair bill coming, what's plowing all the snow that loader used to plow??? You are, with a pickup! Ha!

Wait till your welding stuff up at 2am because when the guy parked it he was too lazy to look in over and thought it was just a sheer pin when really it was really broke...

Wait till your waiting 90 days or more to get paid, like getting paid for March in July or August...

Wait till you blow a few hydraulic hoses and yet another piece is down

Heck that was all just in the last storm for me...

That's why I can't stress enough for you to stay relatively small, expecially since the kids your age and your gonna hire are lazy as.....

Get a 4066r and do 100 driveways yourself and just be happy... I was just like you not all that long back, I bet everyone on here was like... "if I just get that skidsteer I'll be happy, then the next year, if I just get that tractor it will make everything soo much easier and then I'll be happy..." trust me, it's never ending, and it's not the cost of buying stuff upfront, it's maintaining it and keeping it going...

What are you going to do when your tractor lays down 1 driveway into the storm? Have you thought that far ahead?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Triple L;1968840 said:


> Like others have said, everything is all good when you get up before school, do a few driveways and everything is all good... your not working 2am till 4pm then going out to haul snow or plow again in a couple hours...
> 
> Wait till you have 5 or 10 guys working for you and your the one making the call and dealing with the stress of every call you make COSTS YOU $2,000 or more to call the guys in to plow... watching the radar like a hawk trying to get everything done and not have to plow everything twice...
> 
> ...


Amen.

I love what I do, don't get me wrong. But there's some days it's a real big chore to keep from completely flipping my **** over stupid stuff that shouldn't have been a problem to begin with.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

triple l;1968840 said:


> like others have said, everything is all good when you get up before school, do a few driveways and everything is all good... Your not working 2am till 4pm then going out to haul snow or plow again in a couple hours...
> 
> Wait till you have 5 or 10 guys working for you and your the one making the call and dealing with the stress of every call you make costs you $2,000 or more to call the guys in to plow... Watching the radar like a hawk trying to get everything done and not have to plow everything twice...
> 
> ...


^^^^^like^^^^^^


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

Triple L;1968840 said:


> Like others have said, everything is all good when you ......
> 
> Wait till you have 5 or 10 guys working for you and your the one making the call and dealing with the stress of every......
> 
> ...


After all the years of doing this type of work, this is the best advice I've ever seen here...... mainly because I learned years ago this is what I needed to do, and have kept it to, ever since.

I guess this is the reason I still love to go plowing. Thumbs Up

The business side of it is the most difficult part, as the "thankless" job of snow plowing entices people to slow pay.... at least until I tell them I'm not working for them any longer....which lasts for a while.....


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

The problem is remembering all this next fall lol.I'm determined to downsize some,(I think!) and hope I can remember all the hassle of running a 5 truck,1 skid ,4-6 man sidewalk crew,24 commercial accounts that total 35 to 40 hrs of plowing with a 2-4" snowfall,4 hr 8 ton salt run, shop,rent,etc etc!I just ordered a hypertherm 45 plasma cutter (my bonus) so maybe I can do repairs faster and maybe lessen stress!.Nope that won't work,but a nice toy to play with. Maybe I'll do repairs for others during storms and sell bulk salt from the comfort of indoors hmm..........


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## dingybigfoot (Jun 12, 2008)

Triple L;1968840 said:


> Like others have said, everything is all good when you get up before school, do a few driveways and everything is all good... your not working 2am till 4pm then going out to haul snow or plow again in a couple hours...
> *
> Wait till you have 5 or 10 guys working for you and your the one making the call and dealing with the stress of every call you make COSTS YOU $2,000 or more to call the guys in to plow... watching the radar like a hawk trying to get everything done and not have to plow everything twice...*
> 
> ...


Wait until you're prematurely balding and drink Pepto prior to a storm.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

After 10+ years of plowing, I definitely don't care for it anymore. 

But it is what it is unless I can come up with some other income stream in the winter. 

But, I did have a revelation yesterday. I drove through a snow storm on the interstate after picking up a piece of equipment for the summer. 

I was watching all the nine to five people commuting in the storm, and felt super lucky I didn't have to do that regularly, in a prius!...... Pfffffft! 





.....


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## Precedence (Oct 3, 2008)

Personal stress management and having the ability to think quickly and adapt to changing situations is key.

I have 3 sidewalk crews, 4 pickups with plows and salters, 2 one ton dump trucks with plows and salters, 2 straight plow trucks, and 7 pieces of subcontracted equipment (5 trucks 2 loaders).

Managing all of that can be a chore, that's why I am making the transition to get out of the field. I think that's what a lot people, including me, struggle with is you want to still be out doing a route but once you get to a certain size that's not possible anymore.

As far as how to handle the stress of personnel issues, breakdowns, annoying customers, and changing weather. Well the way I look at it is that it's a big challenging strategy game. I look at what pieces I have on the board and what the objectives are and how I can move those pieces to accomplish those objectives.

Remember "no plan for battle ever survives first contact with the enemy".

Having a good initial plan is good for reducing stress but s**t happens and when it does you have to be able to think on your feet.

I have gone through some incredibly bad situations (one storm a few years ago we went from 8 trucks down to 3 in the matter of a couple of hours of starting to plow). At the end of snow season I am still pretty burned out but come next year I will be ready to roll again and every year I improve the systems I have for doing things and get better at providing services for our customers.

Ok I am done rambling for now, time to go fix some stuff and prepare for the next storm.


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## TKLAWN (Jan 20, 2008)

dingybigfoot;1969065 said:


> Wait until you're prematurely balding and drink Pepto prior to a storm.


I've had to loose a sleeve while mowing, but never plowing!:laughing:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Precedence;1969107 said:


> Personal stress management and having the ability to think quickly and adapt to changing situations is key.
> 
> I have 3 sidewalk crews, 4 pickups with plows and salters, 2 one ton dump trucks with plows and salters, 2 straight plow trucks, and 7 pieces of subcontracted equipment (5 trucks 2 loaders).
> 
> ...


I have no problem with changing situations and changes on the fly, it is the stress that is involved with those situations that gets me. Being a firefighter helps..........a lot.

Several years ago, I had an ops manager who was doing the callouts, handling everything and he did a great job. I'd come in at 4 or 5 and help finish up or on a big snowfall or help during the day. It sucked. Big time. I hated it. Not the lack of control, just not being out in the storm. I was totally confident in him and he never let me down, but sitting in the office and not being "out there" just flat out sucked.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Another thing to think about with the "burnout" factor is something I learned from a retired cop and firefighter combo a few years back. They put on a seminar for EMS, firefighters, police and their SO. Hopefully I get it mostly right. 

One of the many things that stress causes to be released in your body is adrenaline. And basically your body needs as much time to destress as it is on that adrenaline "high". I know adrenaline is the only way that I have kept going in years past, especially last year. There is no other way to explain being able to go 3 months on 2-4 hours of sleep every night with only a handful of full night's sleep mixed in. At least for me, I need far more sleep than that. 

So if you're under that amount of stress\adrenaline for that long, it takes that long for your body to return to normal. Quite often, we jump right from snow into green season and it goes for another couple months. So there are times when I can't get away from it for a long time. Everyone reacts differently, but this is a huge factor that many are not aware of.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

Triple L;1968840 said:


> Like others have said, everything is all good when you get up before school, do a few driveways and everything is all good... your not working 2am till 4pm then going out to haul snow or plow again in a couple hours...
> 
> Wait till you have 5 or 10 guys working for you and your the one making the call and dealing with the stress of every call you make COSTS YOU $2,000 or more to call the guys in to plow... watching the radar like a hawk trying to get everything done and not have to plow everything twice...
> 
> ...


Cant disagree with that. Are you suggesting to never grow to having multiple employees and stay small your whole life to make like 80k a year. If that's what you're saying then screw this I'll go to school and be an electrician or something and never aim for a small clintar type of business. Do you guys regret ever growing a big landscape/snow business? I'm not saying I'm not happy with where I am but you brought up a good point, always thinking about nicer tractors and more customers. On another note yes there's a case/bobcat dealer literally 2 mins down the road and they have tractors always sitting around waiting to get rented. Is your 906 still down?


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

NickSnow&Mow;1969240 said:


> Do you guys regret ever growing a big landscape/snow business?


The problem with growing a larger business is the 3-5 years that you have all the overhead of the big guys, closer to the income of the little guys, and just as much **** going wrong to have to deal with.

If I could go straight from small to large, hell yes, I'd do it time and time again. It's the in between that really sucks.

Get people in place to manage the business so that it doesn't manage you as it grows. My biggest mistake was thinking I had to be hands on in everything and have complete control. Hire an operations manager that you trust enough to hand the keys to your house, your wallet, and full access to every dime you have. That's what I did wrong, was trying to be an operations manager, field supervisor, and business owner all in one. It's hell to walk away and let someone else run what you've got everything invested in, but once you get yourself accustomed to the idea and let it do it's thing your life will be much much easier.

Before I moved 3 hours away, the only thing I did was accounting, office, and the sales work. I still went out and plowed snow, or helped do landscape installs, or even mowed grass. But not because I had to, because I wanted to. And I did it every so often on my own schedule.

Getting the owner out of the field and in the office is how a business really grows and prospers. Like it or not, if you want to be big that's how it works.


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## NickSnow&Mow (Jul 12, 2014)

John_DeereGreen;1969272 said:


> The problem with growing a larger business is the 3-5 years that you have all the overhead of the big guys, closer to the income of the little guys, and just as much **** going wrong to have to deal with.
> 
> If I could go straight from small to large, hell yes, I'd do it time and time again. It's the in between that really sucks.
> 
> ...


Thats sounds like some good advice. Do you think once you grow to a certain point you can get back in a peice of equipment once you grow to the point you wanna be at and have managers and foreman to do the paper work/marketing? Office life doesn't sound too attractive.


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## Hysert (Dec 16, 2009)

John_DeereGreen;1969272 said:


> The problem with growing a larger business is the 3-5 years that you have all the overhead of the big guys, closer to the income of the little guys, and just as much **** going wrong to have to deal with.
> 
> If I could go straight from small to large, hell yes, I'd do it time and time again. It's the in between that really sucks.
> 
> ...


I like the small enough idea... i got 3-4 guys all year and thats enough... maybe a third truck or tractor next year...

I find the big contracts are the gravy for me easy to plan and keep happy.. i find aslong as a truck or machine is running everyone is happy.. the phone only rings when ur not there! Hoping to be only 10 or so lots with many larger well paying..starting to slowly weed out the small stuff, driving lot to lot... and keep emailing and dropping by the big property managers trying to get the big ones...

I dont want a ferrari just live nicely!!! So far its great!!


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

NickSnow&Mow;1969283 said:


> Thats sounds like some good advice. Do you think once you grow to a certain point you can get back in a peice of equipment once you grow to the point you wanna be at and have managers and foreman to do the paper work/marketing? Office life doesn't sound too attractive.


I'm sure you can, but at what price, now your paying someone to do everything you were doing in the office, basically giving them your wages cause it's gonna take an expensive guy to fulfill your position in the company... then you ask yourself why? I'll tell you one thing, I don't see the Clintar or any large companies owners out doing any work... they're all in the office putting out fires and dealing with customers... so yeah, building a big business your committing to an office job... by staying small, there is not a single reason why you can't make 150k solo, or 300k with 2-3 guys...

150k working out of your home solo is hands down the most money you'll ever make until your "big" company is grossing 3 million plus per year after your shop and overhead and expenses are paid for... I'm just being honest with you, bigger isn't always better, and I'd like to refer to this thread as it really says it like it is... even though it's about grass it can be applied to pretty much any business and as John_DeereGreen posted, it's that dreaded middle zone that gets ya everytime

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=262189


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

NickSnow&Mow;1969283 said:


> Thats sounds like some good advice. Do you think once you grow to a certain point you can get back in a peice of equipment once you grow to the point you wanna be at and have managers and foreman to do the paper work/marketing? Office life doesn't sound too attractive.


Bottom line:

If you want to be in the field, you're going to stay small and be 100-500K in gross, tops.

If you want to have a large business, you're not going to be in the field often, and most of the time when you are it's only because you've gotten caught up on all the fires that needed put out, and you've got everything else done too. You can't have a huge operation and be in the field every day, or even close. That's just how it works. It sucks for those of us that like to be hands on, but I would rather grow a business that runs it's self versus relying on me to be in the field making it all happen.

I can hire someone to manage field operations and production. I can't hire someone to manage my business the way I want it managed, because if I could find that person, they'd be doing it for themselves and not working for someone else.

Being big is far from sunshine and roses, like I said, and Chad said too. Every call you make once you're grossing 1 million plus seems like it's 4 figures, and a lot of time 5. There's guys here that are far bigger than me, but doing 3 million a year is more than enough to have your hands full. And once you get that big, you have no real choice but to keep growing.

And the middle zone that I mentioned and Chad mentioned. Be prepared to lose 6 figures for at least a couple years to get through that. I went from 100K take home a year for myself when we were doing 500-750K, to running at 150-250K losses for 3 years straight going through that period. It's really unprofitable to grow a business during that phase.

I guess I kinda hijacked this thread and ran it way off course, but things like these need to be said when new guys think they'll grow this huge business and it'll be the best thing in the world.


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

John Deere and Triple L are spot on with the revenues. 

The best decision I have ever made was getting h2b workers. I stopped and talked to a crew from another local lawn company and they hated working there. They had been coming over for 10 years. Last year, 5 guys came to work for me. This year I will be bringing 7. I will have 2 mowing crews and 1 enhancements crew. This was the biggest load off my back. They take their time and do quality work, take care of the equipment and most of all, they are eager to work.

Because of them taking care of the maintenance side of the biz, my brother and I were able to do more sitework. We had bid on over 1mil in projects in the first year doing bids and won a few contracts. Being that it was my brother and I doing the work, we were raking in the money on these contracts while the maintenance was generating steady revenues to cover the main costs.

This year we will be doing more sitework and will probably be over the 500k mark, and I am already seeing the need for additional guys. I am not able to simultaneously bid the work effectively while being in the field running equipment.

So the next logical step is getting operators. So you see, each level you attain brings with it a large fixed cost component. As you grow and minimize that fixed cost, you get closer to the next stage that requires another investment in work force and equipment.

So what it boils down to, as you progress and your margins get better, it just leads to the next jump in expenditures that then shrink your margins. Its these steps where crucial decisions are made that either make or break businesses.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

One problem is many start small/hands on type businesses.Very few have the skills to manage a large company.Very few have a background in business .There's a reason it takes years of classes to be able to navigate a business in this economy.Most businesses fail within a year.Just because we are good at mowing a lawn doesn't qualify one to run a large business.I know of many businesses started by business majors with no experience in the field they work in,they hire guys like us to do the physical work,and they are very successful.I'm a gc and I stayed small for 25 yrs now to avoid as much headache as possible.I'm not rich,but neither are my friends who are building 25 houses a year,It's not what you gross,the bottom line is what you can hang on to.payup Bigger is not always better


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## snoboss (Oct 19, 2012)

wow putting out fires! That describes exactly how I have to run my snow op. I thought if I add more equipment I could get this somewhat manageable. I still average 20 hours on a 3 incher due to the never ending rotation of people that are ice fishin, wood cutting, snowmobiling, sick today, cant work because he had to testify in court for his nieces murder trial, (and needed his pay asap for the gas to get there!) I am leaving for cancun c-ya was another one right after he hooked a guy wire on the 2305 jd sidewalk tractor taking out a 5hundred dollar windshield and tweaking the cab to where the doors wouldn't shut. Had 2 snows this winter I plowed 42 hours straight. offered 2 good guys 20 per hour to plow and they said they would rather sleep. I have 15 plowin units and for the most part I am lucky to have half of them plowin any given storm. situation normal


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

snoboss;1969890 said:


> wow putting out fires! That describes exactly how I have to run my snow op. I thought if I add more equipment I could get this somewhat manageable. I still average 20 hours on a 3 incher due to the never ending rotation of people that are ice fishin, wood cutting, snowmobiling, sick today, cant work because he had to testify in court for his nieces murder trial, (and needed his pay asap for the gas to get there!) I am leaving for cancun c-ya was another one right after he hooked a guy wire on the 2305 jd sidewalk tractor taking out a 5hundred dollar windshield and tweaking the cab to where the doors wouldn't shut. Had 2 snows this winter I plowed 42 hours straight. offered 2 good guys 20 per hour to plow and they said they would rather sleep. I have 15 plowin units and for the most part I am lucky to have half of them plowin any given storm. *situation normal*


SNAFU is right...


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

snoboss;1969890 said:



> wow putting out fires! That describes exactly how I have to run my snow op. I thought if I add more equipment I could get this somewhat manageable. I still average 20 hours on a 3 incher due to the never ending rotation of people that are ice fishin, wood cutting, snowmobiling, sick today, cant work because he had to testify in court for his nieces murder trial, (and needed his pay asap for the gas to get there!) I am leaving for cancun c-ya was another one right after he hooked a guy wire on the 2305 jd sidewalk tractor taking out a 5hundred dollar windshield and tweaking the cab to where the doors wouldn't shut. Had 2 snows this winter I plowed 42 hours straight. offered 2 good guys 20 per hour to plow and they said they would rather sleep. I have 15 plowin units and for the most part I am lucky to have half of them plowin any given storm. situation normal


Yikes,'ll never complain again!Can you suggest some good meds to take?


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

snoboss;1969890 said:


> wow putting out fires! That describes exactly how I have to run my snow op. I thought if I add more equipment I could get this somewhat manageable. I still average 20 hours on a 3 incher due to the never ending rotation of people that are ice fishin, wood cutting, snowmobiling, sick today, cant work because he had to testify in court for his nieces murder trial, (and needed his pay asap for the gas to get there!) I am leaving for cancun c-ya was another one right after he hooked a guy wire on the 2305 jd sidewalk tractor taking out a 5hundred dollar windshield and tweaking the cab to where the doors wouldn't shut. Had 2 snows this winter I plowed 42 hours straight. offered 2 good guys 20 per hour to plow and they said they would rather sleep. I have 15 plowin units and for the most part I am lucky to have half of them plowin any given storm. situation normal


This thread turned into a place to vent. But, that's not such a bad thing. 
Just reading other people's agony has made mine seem miniscule.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

We average 20" or so a season.

Here's another take against the " I don't like it" argument.


The free time off in between storms.....

While people are out in the sub zero mornings commuting to work, daily, I'm at home in my PJ's, drinking coffee and doing office work....



.......


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## PTSolutions (Dec 8, 2007)

EWSplow;1969902 said:


> This thread turned into a place to vent. But, that's not such a bad thing.
> Just reading other people's agony has made mine seem miniscule.


I think it's good to have somewhere to blow off some steam. This has been a trying winter for some. I don't mind that this thread has turned into that. I was actually really surprised how many shared the similar sentiments as I have.



> We average 20" or so a season.
> 
> Here's another take against the " I don't like it" argument.
> 
> ...


20" isn't bad at all. Our downtime is spent prepping equipment for the next round. We have averaged a plow every 3-4 days so far in Feb.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

White Gardens;1969915 said:


> We average 20" or so a season.
> 
> Here's another take against the " I don't like it" argument.
> 
> ...


it's a love/hate relationship.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

EWSplow;1970321 said:


> it's a love/hate relationship.


That it is. That it is.....

But I too have wondered what it would be like to sit around during a storm and not have to worry about anything besides clearing my own driveway and vehicles.

That and being able to enjoy the snow more with my son. But luckily, in that regard, there have been fleeting moments through the years where I have a chance to enjoy playing with him in between storms.





































There is a few more sledding pics on his grandpa's hill, but you get the jist.

.......


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

I can't imagine doing millions in snow every year. No thanks. I have no ambition to ever do that much snow work. Personally I'd rather stay small and produce a good profit. A smart man once said more money=more problems


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

White Gardens;1970426 said:


> That it is. That it is.....
> 
> But I too have wondered what it would be like to sit around during a storm and not have to worry about anything besides clearing my own driveway and vehicles.
> 
> ...


Looks just like my son and grandson, building a snow fort, making a snowman, going sledding your just missing the ice rink in the backyard.


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## White Gardens (Oct 29, 2008)

Most importantly when thinking about all this......


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## snocrete (Feb 28, 2009)

White Gardens;1969915 said:


> We average 20" or so a season.
> 
> Here's another take against the " I don't like it" argument.
> 
> ...


Ya....that is kinda nice huh:waving:



White Gardens;1970561 said:


> Most importantly when thinking about all this......


Driving mad is hard on the drivetrain...not good

BTW, good pics of the boy Nick! That stuff is priceless! Not wanting to sound "cliché", but they grow up fast, so enjoy it....my son is a freshman this yr & its really hit me lately that hes becoming a young man....& not a little boy anymore.


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## PLandscaping (Dec 20, 2013)

V_Scapes;1959205 said:


> Im about the same age (26) and i feel the same this year. last year i was balls to the walls with snow removal since we had a block buster year and really got rolling with over 30 resis and a few commercials. This year i could care less. I bought a large piece of property with an old farm house im trying to renovate to live in in a few weeks and everytime i make progress on the house it snows. everyone knows you lose 3 days to a snowstorm. so i feel like i cant get anything done other than plowing and getting ready for the next storm. i like the money and the actual work but it only takes those few customers that call and ask when your coming every storm to make life miserable.
> In december and january it barely snowed here, just a few saltings, and i remember wishing that it would stay that way. but i got quite a few years to go so oh well.


Customer complains about me not getting there fast enough are what makes snow work not fun.

Also, the rediculous calls I get sometimes from non customers. Had one that I have an estimate to months ago call me yesterday. Can you come and salt? I have a lot of ice. I get there, this person hadn't cleared their driveway in what looked like months. Nine inches of ice in some spots. She wanted it all gone, for the $30 I told her in my original estimate (estimate was for just a salt call, no clearing). She was belligerent after I explained to her the only way it's going away is if it's covered in salt and chipped up, and that would be around $700. Next year she should hire a snow contractor after they give her a reasonable estimate, as long as it's not me.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

PLandscaping;1970986 said:


> Customer complains about me not getting there fast enough are what makes snow work not fun.
> 
> Also, the rediculous calls I get sometimes from non customers. Had one that I have an estimate to months ago call me yesterday. Can you come and salt? I have a lot of ice. I get there, this person hadn't cleared their driveway in what looked like months. Nine inches of ice in some spots. She wanted it all gone, for the $30 I told her in my original estimate (estimate was for just a salt call, no clearing). She was belligerent after I explained to her the only way it's going away is if it's covered in salt and chipped up, and that would be around $700. Next year she should hire a snow contractor after they give her a reasonable estimate, as long as it's not me.


I had one very similar. Contacted me in mid December, after there was 4" of hard pack and asked home much per event. I told him that I would only sign up new 1" clients, he agreed to that. The next day we got 3" and took care of the new snow and salted. He called 3 days later and said we didn't remove the hard pack. I told him we salted the s**t out of it and unless he wanted to pay extra, that's what he gets. The next 1-1/2" snow a week or so later, we did his property to bare concrete. He called and complained that we did it when it didn't need service. He told me to put him on call. I said okay. We were getting a blizzard so he asked to have it done that day. We did it. It snowed and blew all night. The next morning he called and canceled service at 7 am (thank god), because we didn't get there that day. My response was you didn't call for service. I told him to find another contractor.


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## yardsmith (Jan 3, 2000)

Good to read all the stories here, even if it was hijacked. I have been wondering about the pitfalls of getting bigger, & this has provided some decent insight. 
I am getting a bit worn down from plowing, but I'm not saying a word about it out loud lol, because soon enough it'll be time to get out the mowers & make less money (compared to plowing). Seems like once you gripe it stops snowing & doesn't snow for a couple weeks.
Part of my angst as a solo op is 1 of my 2 trucks breaking down, whether the truck or plow or spreader on either truck. Backup truck is currently in the shop waiting for brake line repair, & we have a sizeable storm coming tomorrow. So praying the main truck holds up ok! 
Hang in there guys; there's light at the end of the tunnel


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## dirtyoldman (Oct 16, 2009)

So at what point in growth do you get to sit back and trust your guys to get all the work done? We currently run 10 units for a push event. I trust my guys to handle the salt only events but it seems like I always have to be involved when there is more than 2". At what point do I promote someone to manage all the snow so I can sleep? Does it get easier when you break 1 million in sales? It seems like we can't break that plateau.


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## Brando55 (Jan 6, 2008)

I made the decision this year to really expand the snow side of my business. Cant say it was the best decision ive ever made. We service 41 properties this year and me being the one who has to round everyone up and deal with the smallest of problems has taken its toll. 

I ended up getting a contract for walkways only at 3 government buildings. I have to say ive never had to deal with a harder bunch of people to please. From getting calls saying the walkways need attention so I send a guy down and he send me pics showing the walkways stained white from salt and not a drop of snow to be seen on them to calls telling me to use less salt. Just cant win.

Like previous comments be wise when your trying to grow in the snow biz. I purchased a loader, 2 trucks and took a skid and backhoe out on lease to keep up with the work i had lined up for this year and it has been a battle all year chasing down down money to make all the payments while i wait for gravy payments from the bigger companies with their 90 day payments.

Next year i will be sticking to commercial properties in our industrial parks where everyone goes home at 5pm and weekends arent a mad panic to get everything done before 7am. This way i will be able to keep a tight route with less headaches and happier clients.


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## mike ward (Nov 29, 2008)

i've been in the business for 37 years and missed my first storms in the last 2 weeks because of having rotator cuff surgery. I guess for me having a team of experienced managers to help pull this all together certainly has helped. we are running about 20 plows and 10-11 pushers and 15-25 sidewalk guys. Every storm is tough and we just had a whole years worth in 8 days! I would say to all of you who want to cut back to just increase your prices. That should give you better margins and cut back on your work a bit. Maybe invest in some good people to help you run the show if you are not solo as that makes it all a lot easier as well. Lastly in general don't work so cheap. I hear about pricing of 50-60-70 per hr to plow and 30-40 per hr for walks. this is a 24/7 emergency service and it should be priced that way!

Off the soap box now!!!!


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## pats plowing (Nov 27, 2001)

I attempted to downsize this season thinking I would have less headaches maybe see the kids a bit more maybe take a vacation.. 108" and its currently snowing and ive got more grays then ever before. I used to love it even have pictures of me playing with Tonka trucks in the snow as a kid. Now the Tonka trucks are real and the payments with them are mortgages. No one pays remotely on time, walks still suck, salt is out of control, lawsuits for bs are really beginning to make me to lose all the love for the industry I once had (add in the 30k in insurance costs), managing employees keeping them by their phones and not in bar rooms has been better now but still has its moments, break downs happen and continue to amaze me how things can be perfect one second and a minor hiccup ruins the entire storm for 8 hours, sleepless nights checking for refreeze I feel like a zombie and this year I debated taking the salter out of my pickup but kept it in for breakdowns thank god (and no we don't have our own heated shop so that's time in the dark and cold fixing coils, wiring, starters carbs etc). this may just be the last year of it I don't have the mental or health for another season like we have had over the past 3 years. And seconds to the guys explaining the hump in the sub $1mil mark been there now three years and its beginning to absolutely drain all my ambition from both snow and land. Some days I wish I could go back to the resi's with just a shovel and walking a snow blower around the neighbors I think I made more then than I do now.


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## dieseld (Dec 30, 2005)

pats plowing;1972211 said:


> I attempted to downsize this season thinking I would have less headaches maybe see the kids a bit more maybe take a vacation.. 108" and its currently snowing and ive got more grays then ever before. I used to love it even have pictures of me playing with Tonka trucks in the snow as a kid. Now the Tonka trucks are real and the payments with them are mortgages. No one pays remotely on time, walks still suck, salt is out of control, lawsuits for bs are really beginning to make me to lose all the love for the industry I once had (add in the 30k in insurance costs), managing employees keeping them by their phones and not in bar rooms has been better now but still has its moments, break downs happen and continue to amaze me how things can be perfect one second and a minor hiccup ruins the entire storm for 8 hours, sleepless nights checking for refreeze I feel like a zombie and this year I debated taking the salter out of my pickup but kept it in for breakdowns thank god (and no we don't have our own heated shop so that's time in the dark and cold fixing coils, wiring, starters carbs etc). this may just be the last year of it I don't have the mental or health for another season like we have had over the past 3 years. And seconds to the guys explaining the hump in the sub $1mil mark been there now three years and its beginning to absolutely drain all my ambition from both snow and land. Some days I wish I could go back to the resi's with just a shovel and walking a snow blower around the neighbors I think I made more then than I do now.


No heated shop? I am speechless. How can you be doing sub $1mil with no shop? You need to hire a consultant or a mentor or something. Where do you even park your sh*t in the offseason?


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## pats plowing (Nov 27, 2001)

have any idea what a heated shop up here costs? we have a location it was 250k has a garage just not big enough we have outgrown our current place and looking for another. just the land alone is half a mill now add zoning permits the building utilities it would be over a mil easy and at this point its not in the cards


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## Triple L (Nov 1, 2005)

pats plowing;1972235 said:


> have any idea what a heated shop up here costs? we have a location it was 250k has a garage just not big enough we have outgrown our current place and looking for another. just the land alone is half a mill now add zoning permits the building utilities it would be over a mil easy and at this point its not in the cards


Or just rent for $1500 a month and write it all off


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

dirtyoldman;1971824 said:


> So at what point in growth do you get to sit back and trust your guys to get all the work done? We currently run 10 units for a push event. I trust my guys to handle the salt only events but it seems like I always have to be involved when there is more than 2". At what point do I promote someone to manage all the snow so I can sleep? Does it get easier when you break 1 million in sales? It seems like we can't break that plateau.


I'm not sure it's connected to sales really when it gets "easier." The dollar amount we're doing it still isn't easy. There's a lot of BS and fires to put out.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I'm not at that point yet, but will be working towards having someone in the office and me not there. I think it is possible and still be a medium sized company. Anything is possible, if you have the right people. Will they make the exact same decisions I would? Not all the time, but mine aren't right all the time, either. 

I have a great core group of employees and I plan on giving them the info they need to take much of the decision making off me while still allowing me to work out in the field. Or enjoy snowmobiling. Or Jamaica.


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## mercer_me (Sep 13, 2008)

I'm only 21 and I'm starting to get burnt out on plowing after this Winter. The thing that is really getting me is my sleep schedule is all messed up now and I'm constantly tired. I'm starting to envy the guys you see riding there snowmobiles down the road in the middle of the storm and they guys that can plan trips on the weekend and not have to worry about canceling them. But, just give me till next Fall and I'm sure I'll be ready to go again.


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## mike ward (Nov 29, 2008)

for those of you up north put clauses limiting your visits, add blizzard clauses etc etc. Why would you ever allow yourself unlimited number of visits on these seasonals? And raise your prices...less work and more money! But none of that really helps the here and now! Spring should be here soon!


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

mike ward;1974450 said:


> for those of you up north put clauses limiting your visits, add blizzard clauses etc etc. Why would you ever allow yourself unlimited number of visits on these seasonals? And raise your prices...less work and more money! But none of that really helps the here and now! Spring should be here soon!


If you're not in a snow area you won't understand how it works. A seasonal is an insurance policy. They're betting it snows extra, you're betting it snows average or less. If you know your numbers, unless you have a situation like Boston, you'll always come out ahead on a seasonal.

Some of ours have a blizzard/high snowfall rate clause, some don't. We're almost 20 inches above average this winter here, and every single one of our seasonals are still at or above the profits they were bid for.


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## mike ward (Nov 29, 2008)

I am in a transition area and we get about 25" per year. I just hear a lot of *****ing about the amount it is snowing. Now if I was working 27/7 for grass cutting rates I wouldn't be too happy either. Snow is an emergency service in my area and is priced accordingly.


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## mike ward (Nov 29, 2008)

Jarrett it sounds like you know your costs and that is about 1/2 the battle. Many are shooting from the hip or "what the market will bear" and that outcome is not always good.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Yes, I know my costs very close to the penny. I don't care what the "market will bear" or anything like that. 

If that means I'm 50 bucks an hour cheaper than everyone else, so be it I'll be plenty busy. If that means I'm 50 bucks an hour more than everyone else, I better figure out how to cut costs or I'll be starving. What someone else charges makes no difference at all to me.

I don't care how much it snows. Let it snow every day. I love plowing. It just kinda sucks to deal with all the other associated crap...breakdowns, employees, salt and fuel prices, etc.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I keep saying I'm going to downsize,today cemented that plan.I had to have my wife come out and shovel (slush no blowers) and use our caravan for a sidewalk crew vehicle! To long of a story to relate. I'm demoralized lol.


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## Maclawnco (Nov 21, 2002)

leigh;1974967 said:


> I keep saying I'm going to downsize,today cemented that plan.I had to have my wife come out and shovel (slush no blowers) and use our caravan for a sidewalk crew vehicle! To long of a story to relate. I'm demoralized lol.


I'd be demoralized riding around in a caravan too, gotta have the escalade. ;-)

Pushing thru the hurdle is worth it in the end. Keep your eye on the goal, work the plan, and it will happen.


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

leigh;1974967 said:


> I keep saying I'm going to downsize,today cemented that plan.I had to have my wife come out and shovel (slush no blowers) and use our caravan for a sidewalk crew vehicle! To long of a story to relate. I'm demoralized lol.


I bet there were able bodied men who came up with every excuse possible not to show up, or for having to leave.


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

Maclawnco;1975021 said:


> I'd be demoralized riding around in a caravan too, gotta have the escalade. ;-)
> 
> Pushing thru the hurdle is worth it in the end. Keep your eye on the goal, work the plan, and it will happen.


I'm going to replace it with a nice crewcab with a 7.5 plow.I'm going "in house" with my subs! Figure she could push at least 10 of the smaller accounts and I can get rid of the "deadwood" She can generate 1200$ per storm and I don't have to pay her! at least in dollars


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

EWSplow;1975026 said:


> I bet there were able bodied men who came up with every excuse possible not to show up, or for having to leave.


I could write a book! "My dog .........."


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## EWSplow (Dec 4, 2012)

leigh;1975110 said:


> I could write a book! "My dog .........."


there's a new thread, most outrageous excuses. Lol


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