# Large commercial account in PA. Advice Please



## kickingrass (Jan 29, 2015)

I need advice if willing to give...

I have an opportunity to bid a large contract of 757,000 sq ft of parking lot on a smaller scale mall. Snow averages show 17.3 snows per season with 33 inches of total accumulation.

Based off of my other larger properties that are 1/4 the size I would charge for a seasonal contract as follows:

$8925 per snow event regardless of depth... averaged off of a figure for 5-8 inches for plowing/clearing multiplied by an average of 14 events per season.

$2640 per deicing/salting event with an average figured at 21 applications of 11 ton of bulk salt.

I have stipulated hourly rates for snow removal equipment, operators and hauling vehicles if we need to remove snow authorized by the Manager.

I am stipulating a minimum of 3 years for the contract and a maximum of 7. 

The customer is very open to the idea and doesnt want to have to worry about it anymore. He understands the pros and cons and is willing to go this route.

He is getting 2 other bids for the 2015/2016 season and choosing one of the 3. 

His current method and contractors are not sufficient. I believe 3 plow trucks, 2 backhoes with 10' pusher boxes and a skid steer with a back drag box, pusher box and regular quick connect bucket will suffice.

Comments or suggestions?


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## TKLAWN (Jan 20, 2008)

So we are talkin around $200,000 for the season??.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Unless I'm missing something, your out to lunch. Unless this is a super high end mall and you have to push every once of snow to one corner of the mall. It seems the other contractor had to much equipment on site for 17 acres. He must just be bad at organizing. I also know Pa isn't the highest paying market around also.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

That's a lot of ground to cover, especially when your closest property size is as you say a quarter of this. What loader/skid/backhoe experience do you have? Do you really know what they're capable of? We have an account this size that has 2 Case 621B wheel loaders with 14 foot Arctic boxes, 1 skid with a 10 foot Boss/Arctic , and 2 trucks that float in and out to other close by lots. It's adequate to keep up, and we average about the same amount of snow as you.

I'm thinking you'll be much better off to forego the backhoes and get 2 2-3 yard loaders and run one 14 foot box and 1 16 foot box or 100-150 HP ag tractors, and run them, both with a hydraulic style wing plow. You can get away with the lighter iron on small events, but what happens when a clipper comes through and drops 8 inches in a 4 hour period? Or from Thanksgiving to New Year's, when it's going to be a mad house with no room to work or put snow? 

I think you're way over estimating salt. Your numbers come out to around 1250 pounds per acre every salting. First, you're not salting EVERY part of the lot. Second, you're not always going to use that much on the whole property. I bid everything for 750 pounds per acre that the lot measures. Our historical usage is about 650-700 over the entire season. If you're running 3 trucks, and have a spreader in each one, I think you're good as far as time to apply said salt, vs having a larger salt vehicle.

I'm not commenting on pricing, because it varies so much, but you realize your per push math comes out to just a touch over 500 bucks an acre right? There is only one way that I would price this on a per push basis, and that is if I had subs with the loaders and skid steer(s) and all I had there were my trucks. 

I would still want a retainer of some type no matter what. Sure, you can front the money for materials, but why would you want to front that kind of money in the hopes that it snows? Are you saying it's seasonal, or per push? You broke it down like per push, but then say seasonal?

Generally, retail has a much higher expectation than say industrial/warehousing etc. About the only thing picker than large retails is medical complexes. And they're a royal pain in the ass. 

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I think you're a little limited on large property experience to jump into something this size. We have quite a few properties that are in the 3-5 acre range, and in my opinion it's a whole different ball game once you go to something more than about 8-10 acres, especially with no experience of those sizes. It can get out of hand really fast, and when it does it's gonna be really expensive to get it back in hand. I wouldn't do anything this size until I had at least 2-3 seasons experience with a property in the high singles to low double digits acres wise.

Good luck, but with numbers like those, I really don't think you'll need any help getting the job done.


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

That's about 17 acres, if I were bidding it I would start at 45,000, leave room for negotiating, of course consider fuel, salt, labor, insurance, break downs. Hope for now snow


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

what do you make on the 4-4.5 acre places ?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

kickingrass;1941740 said:


> I need advice if willing to give... Snow averages show 17.3 snows per season with 33 inches of total accumulation.


What does 17.3 snows mean? Is that like being kind of pregnant?



kickingrass;1941740 said:


> $8925 per snow event regardless of depth... averaged off of a figure for 5-8 inches for plowing/clearing multiplied by an average of 14 events per season.


I'm no math major, but 14 events multiplied by 5" is 70". But you state you have 33" average. 14 events multiplied by 8" is 112".



kickingrass;1941740 said:


> $2640 per deicing/salting event with an average figured at 21 applications of 11 ton of bulk salt.


By me, in an average year we salt around twice as often as we plow.

But again, I'm no math major.



kickingrass;1941740 said:


> I am stipulating a minimum of 3 years for the contract and a maximum of 7.


Stipulate all you want, contracts of this size are about negotiations. And why 7 years? What if you're low? (I know, I know, he's not)



kickingrass;1941740 said:


> He is getting 2 other bids for the 2015/2016 season and choosing one of the 3.


I hope so.



kickingrass;1941740 said:


> His current method and contractors are not sufficient. I believe 3 plow trucks, 2 backhoes with 10' pusher boxes and a skid steer with a back drag box, pusher box and regular quick connect bucket will suffice.
> 
> Comments or suggestions?


What is the current method? (before I answer any further)


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## kickingrass (Jan 29, 2015)

We have 14 other accounts based off of these numbers. Our customers are service minded and want quality and dependable service. 12 other accounts are residential and very satisfied. Thanks for the opinion. I get these prices all day long just not sure on such a large account. I'll take into consideration. Thanks


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Good luck. Sounds like you've already got your mind made up as to how you're handling it. But with numbers like those I see no way possible. I don't even think you'd get that in slip and fall central, New Jersey.


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

kickingrass;1942274 said:


> We have 14 other accounts based off of these numbers. Our customers are service minded and want quality and dependable service. 12 other accounts are residential and very satisfied. Thanks for the opinion. I get these prices all day long just not sure on such a large account. I'll take into consideration. Thanks


Congrats to you...I must say if your already getting a similar rate on your smaller properties those might be some of the best rates I have seen posted here. Let us know what happens.
Steve


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## FISHERBOY (Aug 13, 2007)

*Hi*



xtreem3d;1942225 said:


> what do you make on the 4-4.5 acre places ?


IF your question is for me I'm currently doing a 6 acre site for $20,000 zero tolerance, lots of machine work, guide rails dumpsters etc.


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## xtreem3d (Nov 26, 2005)

FISHERBOY;1942606 said:


> IF your question is for me I'm currently doing a 6 acre site for $20,000 zero tolerance, lots of machine work, guide rails dumpsters etc.


Fisher...No my question was for OP
Steve


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## R1lukasz (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm confused , kickingrass are you saying that you charge per push or per season?
8925$ per snow event regardless of depth x 14 events per season = 124950$
2640$ per deicing/salting x 21 events =55440$
so total will be 180390$ ?On the side I note Im doing 6 acres totally by myself one wideout and one speed skid


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

11 tons of salt per app???????????????


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

So you don't even own a plow and just use subs?


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Love plowsite, its one of few places on earth where 2+2 really equals 9.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Allentown is only two hours away. Guess I should head up there and get some some contracts. payup


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## pdreibels (Dec 24, 2013)

kimber750;1942889 said:


> Allentown is only two hours away. Guess I should head up there and get some some contracts. payup


I'm only 30mins!


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## BC Handyman (Dec 15, 2010)

1olddogtwo;1942882 said:


> Love plowsite, its one of few places on earth where 2+2 really equals 9.


:laughing:



kimber750;1942889 said:


> Allentown is only two hours away. Guess I should head up there and get some some contracts. payup


Go get em tiger!

I can't speak for the $ but I can say that 11tons of salt for a 17 acre lot is alot of salt! Correct me if I'm wrong(since I don't have anything that big) but wouldn't 17 acres only need maybe 4-5 tons of salt?

unless your trying to burn through an inch and a half of snow.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

pdreibels;1942924 said:


> I'm only 30mins!





BC Handyman;1942948 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Go get em tiger!
> 
> ...


Allentown is gonna be overwhelmed with out of town plow trucks come the next snowfall. Hell we will just load up the spreaders and go salt. payup


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

I just read through this thread,my head is spinning I would never come on here and ask for pricing advice,this is really silly! I'm a building /excavating contractor and would feel like quite the tool to be asking for opinions on pricing lol Most of these threads have got to be trolls


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## MatthewG (Jun 16, 2009)

There are many large lots in the Lehigh valley, I know mostly all of them, as most are owned by 3 major corporations. Just tell me the name of the mall and I'll tell you who currently does it, if you have a chance, and what you should bid.

Also your sales figures need to be cut in half, its just like buying in bulk, the bigger or more you buy the more you save.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

leigh;1942982 said:


> I just read through this thread,my head is spinning I would never come on here and ask for pricing advice,this is really silly! I'm a building /excavating contractor and would feel like quite the tool to be asking for opinions on pricing lol Most of these threads have got to be trolls


I completely agree. As someone who's in the same field it's embarrassing to hear someone ask how to bid. Really wish this site would not allow straight pricing questions, it would cut down on a lot of nonsense


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## kickingrass (Jan 29, 2015)

This is a seasonal contract. I was trying to figure an average depth push over an average number of events in order to come up with a yearly figure. I have salted before and I think your numbers are a little low. The mall closes at 11 and opens between 10 and 11. I should be able to salt the entire parking lot, parking spaces and all at least once. And when the storm is over, hit where needed. I may drop a ton off per application in my figures, but would like to get input on a price per ton applied. I know what I buy it for and I know what I would like to charge, but that may not be feesible. The salt location will be 6 miles off site as well.

We will have someone on site from the first inch until the storm is over no matter how much snow. So there will be a constant clearing in most areas and pushing larger depths will be minimized, just more machine and operator time. I want to make sure I am covered. My mentality is that if I take on the responsibility, have to work all hours of the night and day, be away from my family, work on holidays, etc. I want to get paid for it. I am in no way looking to be the cheapest bidder. I can sell my services and myself, regardless of cost, but I do need to be in the same ballpark as the rest.

Thanks for the input


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

You chose this job /business knowing you work when it snows no matter the occasion. 
Get over it or move on.


Most price $$$ disparage for working these hrs is around 1-5$ of gold
You want the whole mine.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

kickingrass;1943565 said:


> I may drop a ton off per application in my figures, but would like to get input on a price per ton applied. I know what I buy it for and I know what I would like to charge, but that may not be feesible.


Ok, you're asking for input. Here's mine.

You're figuring almost double the salt you need per application, and your price is double what it should be. Plowing is at least double what it should be as well, probably closer to triple.

Seriously, none of us know your market. We can't price your **** for you. Only you can come up with numbers that are reasonable for your market, and then sell the work. All we can say is what the site would be worth in our markets, and here you'd get laughed at and out of the building for sure, and you'd blow every chance you ever had of bidding it again in the future.

How's that?

For numbers on a per push basis to multiply out, here I would be about 1250 for salt application and about 2250 for plowing. That's without seeing the site and knowing anything about what it's laid out as and what kind of production rates I should use.


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## bristolturf (Dec 20, 2008)

Your price is high. I dont know your market compared to mine but around here that would probably go for about 75-100k per season depending on sidewalks. And based on what a few of the others from PA said, its high. 

Now I have managed quite a few shopping centers that ranged from about 1 acre up to about 14 acres. The 14 acre site we would clear with 2 skids, one with a 8' snow wolf and the other with a 10' snow wolf. We also had a f350 with a wide out plow there for about 1/2 of the time. We could start at 2 am and have the primary areas cleared by about 630 and the secondary areas by about 9 am. You should have no problem with 2 back hoes and a skid loader. If you need the pick up there or just don't have a home for it put it there, but put those trucks elsewhere to make some money. 

Regarding your salt 11 tons is crazy. You will probably need about 4-5 tons max at the end of a storm and maybe 2-3 during the storm to salt isle ways so a total of 6-8 per event. You have to remember when you get into the bigger sites prices go down. In order for us to stay competitive with the big boys on a few we were at $850 (excluding walks) to push 2-3" on a 12 acre site, $280 per ton for salt, $18 per bag of ice melt. Fortunately during events we were t/m and then the full push at the end was fixed pricing. But still on our small sites our pricing was generally 50% higher.

Why are you proposing a 7 year contract, are you going out and purchasing the loaders? I personally wouldn't do anything longer than 3 years. You would need to have some sort of clauses in there that would allow you to adjust your pricing based on fuel, salt etc.


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## JimMarshall (Jan 25, 2013)

My math gets 6.8 tons per app. I don't know your market but here you wouldn't even get laughed out of the bidding process, you'd get laughed the whole way out of town.


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## Ramairfreak98ss (Aug 17, 2005)

BC Handyman;1942948 said:


> :laughing:
> 
> Go get em tiger!
> 
> ...


LOL, we have a site thats 1m+ sq, zero tolerance, salted all the time, we use on average 2 "two yard hopper full" each app, part is for a 120k sq ft 6th floor parking garage roof top, the rest is for lots. Thats 4 tons at MAX, and we usually don't load the hopper totally full unless its a ton of ice out.

We have a lot of sidewalks at this account and pays what you want to bid this mall out, unless its a ton of sidewalks and tons of non stop stores where you'll blow through pallets of ice melt each app..

Seasonal? they'll never sign for that, maybe $80k, per storm, maybe you could get $180k on a great year.


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## jdavis11 (Oct 8, 2014)

Call me crazy but I think you are way over estimating the equipment you need for a 17 acre property? Here is the list of what you are allocating...

3 trucks @ 1 acre/hr= 3 acres/hr
2 backhoes @ 1.75 acres/hr=3.5 acres/hr
1 skid loader @ 1.5 acres/hr=1.5 acres/hr

When all of these machines are running your productivity will at 8 acres/hr... Do you really need to have the entire place clear in 2 hours? I realize it will take longer on 5"+ events, but I have to believe there will be a 1" trigger anyway. During the open hours you are only going to be able to plow drive lanes anyway. I think you may be pricing yourself out of the contract due to believing you need this much equipment and operators?

I would leave 2 skid loaders with 10' boxes and a 1 ton truck dump with a wideout or v-plow at a site this size, or if you are worried that wouldn't be sufficient then maybe 1 skid loader with a 10' box, a backhoe and the truck at the most. Obviously I am assuming you would have floater trucks to back yourself up if you have breakdowns or need to move salt in quickly (if it is not on site).


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