# Did Mass DOT do away with 3/4 and 1 tons?



## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

I am looking over the newest rate sheet from Mass DOT and the smallest truck listed is 11,000gvw and over....
Looks like they have done away with most smaller equipment???? Anyone confirm?


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

At least the truck rates seem fair. Over here everything is done for nothing. As long as your working here it doesnt matter if you lose money.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*I feel your pain*



Italiano67;1070559 said:


> At least the truck rates seem fair. Over here everything is done for nothing. As long as your working here it doesnt matter if you lose money.


There is more to that story, They are purchasing more equipment in house and are going to try and limit the hours the contractors get...It will be a mess...
I understand 100% as I am working for NHDOT now and the pay sucks!!! 
All they can say is you are lucky you are working...That is their attitude.
I'm like a living wage would be nice...Benefits are nice but they dont pay the bills, put oil in the furnace etc....
Frustrating as I am making less per hour now than I have made in 20 years..
Most of the guys work second and third jobs,just to get by. I think things are very tuff all over...


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## Italiano67 (Feb 16, 2005)

If they think they can do the work with their own equipment cheaper they better hire some smarter bean counters.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*Common sense is optional...*



Italiano67;1070587 said:


> If they think they can do the work with their own equipment cheaper they better hire some smarter bean counters.


It is sad at a government level that it seems no one thinks...
It has been since the 80's when Mass Highway owned and operated its own fleet of Oshkosh's and Walter snowfighters. 
In over 20 years they have no measureable large equipment left, No garages at the pit level to speak of. No crews,or quarters, just small office trailers and a fuel pump. The largest repair facility was torn down, the land was cleaned up and sold.Sitting on the land is now an office building. 
It will be VERY exspensive for Massachusetts to go backwards and rebuild their fleet.
Throw in even 25 years ago they had limited privatization... 
Finding qualified operators is getting more and more difficult with each passing year.Even NH is going with all automatics as they cannot find drivers that can shift anymore...Especially down in the southern part of the state.It is a fact nation wide that less and less workers are getting into trucking/the trades and for good reason I may add...
I almost think it is some sort of power play,an expensive power play just the same.


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

Italiano67;1070559 said:


> At least the truck rates seem fair. Over here everything is done for nothing. As long as your working here it doesnt matter if you lose money.


If you ask me their rates suck.


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## ponderosa (Jan 8, 2006)

oshkosh please give me a call lets talk about the state plowing 603 398 6000 my name is rick thanks


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## 02powerstroke (Nov 7, 2006)

Figures I wanted to switch to the state this year....


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## 02powerstroke (Nov 7, 2006)

Mackman;1070650 said:


> If you ask me their rates suck.


whys that? you get called in like 3 hours before it even starts snowing and stay on for most of the day cleaning up the next day after its over its a tit deal man...


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

02powerstroke;1070955 said:


> whys that? you get called in like 3 hours before it even starts snowing and stay on for most of the day cleaning up the next day after its over its a tit deal man...


Well im talking about their tri axles. rates. 69/hr for hualing. and 117 for a plow. I dont know what penndot is for hauling but penndot is 170/hr for plow and spreader.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*Mas rate for Tri-axle*



Mackman;1071031 said:


> Well im talking about their tri axles. rates. 69/hr for hualing. and 117 for a plow. I dont know what penndot is for hauling but penndot is 170/hr for plow and spreader.


Hi,

The Mass rate for a tri-axle is $153.50 for a combo and add $35 per hour if you have a wing.
They will try and nickle and dime you on the wing,been there done that........


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## Mackman (Nov 3, 2009)

Oshkosh;1071036 said:


> Hi,
> 
> The Mass rate for a tri-axle is $153.50 for a combo and add $35 per hour if you have a wing.
> They will try and nickle and dime you on the wing,been there done that........


Ok my bad.... Still alittle low but over all not bad. What do you mean by nickle and dime you with a WING??


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## Kramer (Nov 13, 2004)

my 1 ton dump is 11000 gvw.

I noticed they're offering more for a skid steer than a smaller sized truck too. I think they said $84 for a skidsteer vs about $80 for the smaller trucks.

How much work can there be for a skidsteer -- where are they using them--or are they just piling snow in lots somewhere?


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

Mackman;1071037 said:


> Ok my bad.... Still alittle low but over all not bad. What do you mean by nickle and dime you with a WING??


When we had lean winters they would say,well you only had the wing down for six hours of the ten you where in.....Stuff like that....
Depending on the boss he would say dont use your wing this storm and he would subtract the wing rate......
From year to year I never knew how the foreman was going to be..After ten years I had enough...
They where brutal with my Oshkosh...I had one foreman who would call in pickups only and leave my Oshkosh parked as he thought he was saving the state money.That cost him the pit finally...lol M.F! One storm he left me parked for eight hours, when he called I was busy his roads(Rt 128) packed up hard...That was the last storm he was a foreman and the last storm I wasnt first called...He had to look out his office window at my Oshkosh with ice ripper blades on the belly blade sitting all night as he saw his job slipping away...


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

Kramer;1071079 said:


> my 1 ton dump is 11000 gvw.
> 
> I noticed they're offering more for a skid steer than a smaller sized truck too. I think they said $84 for a skidsteer vs about $80 for the smaller trucks.
> 
> How much work can there be for a skidsteer -- where are they using them--or are they just piling snow in lots somewhere?


After I gave up my own business, the next winter I couldn't handle sitting in the house so I ran a Case skid steer with a blower,clearing sidewalks around our state rotarys.
Post storm clean up we would do over and under passes with it,anything with a sidewalk...
This was back in 2002/2003 and it was well over $125 per hour...
And to think I had sold 4 Bombardier sidewalk machines the year before.lol Its all about timing..


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

Italiano67;1070587 said:


> If they think they can do the work with their own equipment cheaper they better hire some smarter bean counters.


How do you figure? Around here the DOT has plenty of work it can be doing with the equipment year round, plenty of hot top and other stuff to haul so the trucks will see action year round. The state also does not need to make a profit, and I believe ( but may be wrong) is exempt from fuel taxes as well as exempt from sales tax on all of its purchases

I always wonder the logic behind "saving money" by privatizing and that applies to a lot more then just snow plowing


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

BigLou80;1071121 said:


> How do you figure? Around here the DOT has plenty of work it can be doing with the equipment year round, plenty of hot top and other stuff to haul so the trucks will see action year round. The state also does not need to make a profit, and I believe ( but may be wrong) is exempt from fuel taxes as well as exempt from sales tax on all of its purchases
> 
> I always wonder the logic behind "saving money" by privatizing and that applies to a lot more then just snow plowing


 If they used their equipment year round it maybe justified...
NH Turnpikes parks their ten wheelers all summer. 
They have 2002's with 50k miles on them ,I've seen their trucks hit the auctions with less than 70k miles on them. 
At $180,000 each I think it would be cheaper for them to contract out their wheeler plowing.
They are not well maintained either.I know this first hand.


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## mansf123 (Nov 10, 2009)

People use the economy as a way to screw you out of money. I cant tell you how many times ive heard "well your lucky to have a job at all".....That should not give people the right to cut wages or rates. Trucks are not cheap to run neither is insurance. When I looked into putting my 1 ton on with the town the insurance they wanted was going to be so expensive i might barely make a profit. Plus i think my town called the subs in 3 times last year. 5 years ago they would call them out everystorm and the roads looked very good after a snowfall......now its pitiful what the roads look like after a storm.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

BigLou80;1071121 said:


> How do you figure? Around here the DOT has plenty of work it can be doing with the equipment year round, plenty of hot top and other stuff to haul so the trucks will see action year round. The state also does not need to make a profit, and I believe ( but may be wrong) is exempt from fuel taxes as well as exempt from sales tax on all of its purchases
> 
> *I always wonder the logic behind "saving money" by privatizing and that applies to a lot more then just snow plowing*




You haven't been in business for yourself very long, have you?

At the very least, I'd guess you don't pay your fair share of taxes with that mindset.


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

jomama45;1071190 said:


> You haven't been in business for yourself very long, have you?
> 
> At the very least, I'd guess you don't pay your fair share of taxes with that mindset.


9 years now, pay plenty of taxes cringe every time I send a check to Boston. Moving to Vermont in a few weeks in an attempt to send fewer checks to Boston

However if an entity that is exempt from most taxation and does not need to make a profit can't provide a service for less then one who pays too many taxes and must make a profit something is wrong with entity number one. Which we know there is but privatizing is not the answer.

Look at health care, the insurance companies and the right wing screamed bloody murder that they couldn't compete with a government option it would put them out of business


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

i would think that it would be cheaper to sub, im not sure by you guys, but i have heard stories that the IDOT around here pays VERY well. again, thats what i have heard, so if theres an IDOT member here that would be interesting to confirm. but im sure they are getting some type of extra pay for nights, weekends, holidays? heck the city workers around here are making 30-35 per hour on straight time, overtime, holidays, you could be talking 40-50 per hour just for the operator


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

plus pension, health benefits, etc
Easily at the end of the day could be $70/hour for a state employee.

And, of course, don't forget the very finest in brand new equipment, totally done to their "strange and different" specs and whenever it actually needs some work, sell it off at auction at 1/4 price

yeah, can't understand why subs could be cheaper.


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## Oshkosh (Sep 11, 2005)

*Oh man*

WTF, NH DOT starts at $11 per hour for truck drivers...It takes 8 years to get up to $17 per hour...No one is getting rich much less making a living wage in the state system here in NH...
I've heard the"You are lucky to have a job" speech,That is B.S sorry we live paycheck to paycheck and month to month working for the state here.It sucks frankly....We have to have winter O.T to survive.
I would say that 60% of the state employees I know have second and or third jobs just to get by...
This state should be ashamed at how they treat their employees...They wonder why they have huge turnover,why they have to buy automatic transmissions,Why jobs go unfilled months at a time in the worst economy since the great depression.
Get this ,our "Union" wants to know what we would be willing to give up to appease the Governor this next negotiation.......
Out of the eight guys in our two sheds all eight would leave if offered the same pay in a different line of work.Whats that tell you?
If you are thinking of working for the state,talk with me first,if you have half a brain you will be glad you did...
We wont even get into the lack of maintenance of the equipment that was on the trade list three years ago that we are still running.The fact that we are keeping trucks much longer than their useful first line life and we have hired no extra mechanics...The list of stupidity is endless....It goes right to the top!


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

Oshkosh;1071490 said:


> WTF, NH DOT starts at $11 per hour for truck drivers...It takes 8 years to get up to $17 per hour...No one is getting rich much less making a living wage in the state system here in NH...
> I've heard the"You are lucky to have a job" speech,That is B.S sorry we live paycheck to paycheck and month to month working for the state here.It sucks frankly....We have to have winter O.T to survive.
> I would say that 60% of the state employees I know have second and or third jobs just to get by...
> This state should be ashamed at how they treat their employees...They wonder why they have huge turnover,why they have to buy automatic transmissions,Why jobs go unfilled months at a time in the worst economy since the great depression.
> ...


cant say that i have seen or heard that out this way. I even had a friedn work for a local city,.... dump truck needed 3 k in brake work , boss said sell it.... 95 chevy 4x4 3500 diesel, central hydro , spreader and western plow.... sold $1500 bucks....

they now have a new f 450


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## 02powerstroke (Nov 7, 2006)

So back on topic are 3/4 tons out ? no matter what?


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## 77gmcserria (Feb 9, 2008)

I heard that Mass requires you to have $1 million insurance if you will be plowing for them, is that correct?


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## M&M (Sep 8, 2008)

Oshkosh;1071490 said:


> WTF, NH DOT starts at $11 per hour for truck drivers...It takes 8 years to get up to $17 per hour...No one is getting rich much less making a living wage in the state system here in NH...
> I've heard the"You are lucky to have a job" speech,That is B.S sorry we live paycheck to paycheck and month to month working for the state here.It sucks frankly....We have to have winter O.T to survive.
> I would say that 60% of the state employees I know have second and or third jobs just to get by...
> This state should be ashamed at how they treat their employees...They wonder why they have huge turnover,why they have to buy automatic transmissions,Why jobs go unfilled months at a time in the worst economy since the great depression.
> ...


I'm not trying to start anything but this gets me annoyed as a guy who works his tail off and as a taxpayer. Nobody has a gun to anyones head. If you don't like the pay or the work or the benefits or anything go find a different job. It's as simple as that. Before I started my hardscaping company 7 years ago, my employer paid me $15 an hour and said right to my face "You are going to make me a lot of money this year." Well, 2 weeks later I quit and opened up shop and now I have to work exponetially harder but I'm making more money. If I don't find work, I don't get paid.

People, and I'm not saying you Oshkosh specifically, but people have an entilement attitude. Yeah $11 bucks an hours sucks but if the supply of workers is there, then I say as a taxpayer keep it at $11. You are right that the state operates on a break even basis which is a difficult situation but the expenses are so out of control things need to be reigned in.

Lastly, my wife is in a teachers union and on the state retirement system so I have a good understanding of both sides of the coin.


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## Burkartsplow (Nov 1, 2007)

BigLou80;1071121 said:


> How do you figure? Around here the DOT has plenty of work it can be doing with the equipment year round, plenty of hot top and other stuff to haul so the trucks will see action year round. The state also does not need to make a profit, and I believe ( but may be wrong) is exempt from fuel taxes as well as exempt from sales tax on all of its purchases
> 
> I always wonder the logic behind "saving money" by privatizing and that applies to a lot more then just snow plowing


It is alot cheaper to pay for a sub contractor then buy more equipment and hire more employees to run the equipment. If you hire 3 employees and have to pay there wages, insurance, vacation time, benefits you are in the millions right there for that one year. Or you can hire 3 trucks and just have to pay there wage and you saving a lot of money. So he is right that there bean counter is wrong...


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

Burkartsplow;1080610 said:


> It is alot cheaper to pay for a sub contractor then buy more equipment and hire more employees to run the equipment. If you hire 3 employees and have to pay there wages, insurance, vacation time, benefits you are in the millions right there for that one year. Or you can hire 3 trucks and just have to pay there wage and you saving a lot of money. So he is right that there bean counter is wrong...


I think your missing my point.

1) what subcontractor works for wages ? there are numerous threads on this very site about working for " wages"

2) in the case of most state sub contractors for massdot their boss has to ( or at least should) pay all of the above listed ( by you) costs plus liability insurance and turn a profit. In the case of summer time work such as paving all persons on the job must be paid "prevailing"/union wage

3) after paying for snow plowing contractors, we need to pay for sub contractors to haul the salt to the states salt shed, we hire another sub contractor to pile the salt with his loader, the construction of the salt shed went out to bid. In the summer we hire subcontractors to pave the highway its not uncommon for them to hire ( sub contractors) 30-40 dump trucks every day to haul hot top. We subcontract the removal of anything that can't be mowed. All of these sub contractors must comply with #2 above

4) the only thing worse the a gov't employee is a sub contractor who does all of his work for the gov't. Really whats the difference? I know of plenty of guys who do nothing but plow for the state its 100% of their snow removal business. Several of those guys spend the summer subcontracting paving/hauling work from the state

The real issue is lack of accountability for state employees and above market rate wages and benefits for below average performance. Privatizing is not a good solution. It almost always results in higher cost and lower performance. We fought WW2 with our own troops, the only thing sub contracted was manufacturing of goods. Look at how much money has been saved with KBR, Blackwater,Haliburton and other subcontractors fighting this war for us. Lets talk about high quality sub contracted base construction and electrocuted soldiers.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

02powerstroke;1073680 said:


> So back on topic are 3/4 tons out ? no matter what?


You can still plow for towns with a 3/4 ton truck and smaller than a 9' plow.


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## bub3020 (Feb 25, 2009)

back to the topic nothing under 10,000 gvw and no u dont need i million in ins


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## justme- (Dec 28, 2004)

Last I heard they did require $1 mil insurance- at least 2 seasons ago they did when they had the big walk out and were scrambling for trucks mid season because of it...

On the rates sheet they have a code under Misc - 10000 is 10K-10,999 GVW with 9 'PRP, and AWD.
So, an F350SD would be fine, but they did away with 3/4 ton trucks several years ago - no need with all the 1 ton pickups that were coming out... and to be honest, I see WAAAY to many FSD trucks pushing wet state roads around here anyway where half the number of larger trucks would make better work of the job.


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## gtstang462002 (Dec 23, 2009)

My county requires $1 million liability coverage as well plus workman's comp. The bump in my premium was only $50 more per month. I didn't think that was too bad(just for the liability).


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## john mc (Jan 4, 2009)

mass dot will not have a black and wet policy this year. don't let your loved ones out when its snowing.I was told today things are going to be different.If you don't have a wing truck you prob .wont get called till large storms.They are cutting 30% of the trucks. Then as i just finished adding a new closed computer iI hear they are trying to take back all combo spreaders. makes me feel good i just spent 7,500. some combo's just spent over 20 k in upgrades, wings,computers,tanks . and to get dropped in 2 years. WTF


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## ss502gmc (Sep 12, 2008)

I was told that anyone without dual wheels and atleast a 9' blade is kicked out to the curb, and also last year I put my name on the waiting list for district 5 and the min ins coverage was $300k auto and nothing about Gen Liability. Funny thing is last seaon i was number 661 on the list!! Shows how many people want to work for the state. Also heard the base pay is now up to $89/hr for a 1 ton. Id give anything to be on the state as the last 3 years when i was waiting for snow to start sticking to the pavement not making a penny I saw 3 of my friends sitting in a parking lot snoozing on the time clock. WTF, Oh yeah and there was no accumulation for about 3 hrs. I dont get it


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## john mc (Jan 4, 2009)

two years ago mass.dot did away with the 100-300 ins.about 5 years ago mass dot started paying for wings all the time weather we used them or not. trucks sitting around is a thing of the past.mass dot is going to be using 4 to 5 times salt Less this year with the new system. 
With all the trucks having wings 3/4 of trucks wont even get called. on a reg 4 inch storm we used to have 3 groups of trucks of 9 .(27) trucks. This year they are going to be using 6 trucks with wings .


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

john mc;1094416 said:



> mass dot will not have a black and wet policy this year. don't let your loved ones out when its snowing.I was told today things are going to be different.If you don't have a wing truck you prob .wont get called till large storms.They are cutting 30% of the trucks. Then as i just finished adding a new closed computer iI hear they are trying to take back all combo spreaders. makes me feel good i just spent 7,500. some combo's just spent over 20 k in upgrades, wings,computers,tanks . and to get dropped in 2 years. WTF


Its about time the stopped spending millions and millions on wet pavement. people need to learn to stay the [email protected]#k home during a snow storm. Its nonsense when I can see more sparks coming off a plow then I do snow


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## Big Dog D (Oct 1, 2005)

john mc;1094416 said:


> mass dot will not have a black and wet policy this year. don't let your loved ones out when its snowing.I was told today things are going to be different.If you don't have a wing truck you prob .wont get called till large storms.They are cutting 30% of the trucks. Then as i just finished adding a new closed computer iI hear they are trying to take back all combo spreaders. makes me feel good i just spent 7,500. some combo's just spent over 20 k in upgrades, wings,computers,tanks . and to get dropped in 2 years. WTF


John,

When we went for our MADOT inspections on Thursday the guy who oversees 7 depots in our area said that they cut back anywhere from 45-54% on the total number of hired trucks in our area. Some didn't come back on their own, some just weren't asked to come back. They are judging everything based on past performance of the truck(s) and how well people interact with others. Sounds like there will be fewer trucks this year, they will work more when they work, but who knows.......it sounds like it's all going to be a popularity contest.

It should be interesting this year to say the least.


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## plowtime1 (Nov 1, 2007)

Big Dog,
If you cant perform or "get along", I get it because who essentially is paying you; the state.
I might also add: It also depends on how many hands can you shake just as much as these fake politians! LOL


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## mansf123 (Nov 10, 2009)

I read this article a while back and from the sounds of things it might be true...http://www.myfoxboston.com/dpp/news...ng-more-in-house-road-plowing-25-apx-20100621


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## Big Dog D (Oct 1, 2005)

plowtime1;1096974 said:


> Big Dog,
> If you cant perform or "get along", I get it because who essentially is paying you; the state.
> I might also add: It also depends on how many hands can you shake just as much as these fake politians! LOL


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## justme- (Dec 28, 2004)

Interesting article, must have missed that. Last year my city went along with the state in late plowing, storm management, and not going wet pavement... really annoyed and screwed up my customers who were expecting to be able to get out and go to work at 6am but found while I had plowed their driveway the roads had not been touched in some cases - and none touched at all before 5:30 am. Resulting in doubling my and most other plowers work by making us chase the street plows. 

It's about time the state got their act together and figured out how to better manage the snow season- if any of us used their practices we'd have gone bankrupt in the first season... 9 trucks in a group when 2 properly equipped trucks (wing plows and front blades) or 3 would suffice (on some roads and on highways 6 trucks would be more than enough)... trucks on the clock at full wage doing nothing...
typical wasteful spending.


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## soldier2184 (Aug 14, 2010)

how do u get intouch with mass dot to become a sub contractor


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## Big Dog D (Oct 1, 2005)

Here.

http://www.mhd.state.ma.us/default.asp?pgid=snowandice/contractorInfo&sid=about


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