# Want to know about AGMG



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

I am Rich Arlington III CSP CLP, I am here to answer questions you may have about Affiliated Grounds Maintenance Group Inc.

So ask away


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1057140 said:


> I am Rich Arlington III CSP CLP, I am here to answer questions you may have about Affiliated Grounds Maintenance Group Inc.
> 
> So ask away


Rich.....Its nice to see you on here...I have a Question?...What makes Affiliated Grounds Different for other Nationals i.e..USM, Dentco, Springwise...How are you going to reinvent the wheel....Thanks ...


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Basically what makes us different is that Myself Crystal, and Mike Nelson have over 25 years experience as snow contractors ourselves. so we get it. Other items are we deliver on what we promise both to the customer and the contractor. We are here to answer questions, deal with problems, and truely understand what you are up against.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Since your asking. Are you out fishing to get work? I get your e mails every other day asking for bids. I don't think that may places are calling you. And it seems you retract asking for bids a lot. So I'm wondering if your out asking for bids and then trying to submit it to different companies hoping to get the contract.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1057140 said:


> I am Rich Arlington III CSP CLP, I am here to answer questions you may have about Affiliated Grounds Maintenance Group Inc.
> 
> So ask away


it is nice to see one of these groups actually representing themselves on here (Unlike a certain other company  that had a rep show up for 2 posts then remain quiet)


----------



## Bossman 92 (Sep 27, 2006)

Well Rich glad you are here! I am looking forward to meeting you next week at the SIMA Build a Bid Workshop.

Bossman


----------



## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

grandview;1057164 said:


> Since your asking. Are you out fishing to get work? I get your e mails every other day asking for bids. I don't think that may places are calling you. And it seems you retract asking for bids a lot. So I'm wondering if your out asking for bids and then trying to submit it to different companies hoping to get the contract.


That's exactly how nationals operate.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Grandview, in relation to your question... yes we always have the right to solicite bids... as far as I know there has only been one retraction and it was Wachovia. The guy we work with got let go when Wells Fargo came in and they stopped the bidding....

At AGMG we dont win alot of the bids because we only ask for quotes from companies like yourself and I am sure you are not the cheapest in your market. We do not want to work with contractors we have to babysit that is why we dont have 7000 account managers sitting in our office. that being said we are not the cheapest National company bid and if that is the only qualifier for the client than it usally goes to you know who. Current just FYI we have had over 200 RFPs so far this year. so yes we do get alot of RFPs.

Bossman, just make sure you introduce yourself at the Build A Bid in Columbus.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Camden, 
Just remember that just like your local market, there are more bad than good Nationals... we are one of the good ones because we are still contractors in Erie Pa. I have owned and operated Arlington Lawncare since 1986 and still own and operate it today....I would never take advantage of a contractor they are too important to our growth...


----------



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

HI Rich, 
Any plans to move into the Canadian market?


----------



## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

Are you guys mainly east coast? Do you come into the Chicagoland market at all?


----------



## hairygary (Feb 19, 2009)

I read your philosophies on your web page and I have to say I like it. If you were in my market I would consider working for you.


----------



## ff610 (Jan 9, 2009)

SullivanSeptic;1057256 said:


> Are you guys mainly east coast? Do you come into the Chicagoland market at all?


He has put out RFP's out for all over the Midwest including Chicagoland and Indiana. For those that don't know Rich, he's is a stand up guy. I have declined to ever bid on work with any national company until I met him for the obvious reasons. It just goes to show that not all can be judged the same. Glad to have you on here Rich! I'm sure your gonna be busy answering questions!


----------



## DodgeRam1996 (Oct 8, 2006)

Rich Arlington;1057140 said:


> I am Rich Arlington III CSP CLP, I am here to answer questions you may have about Affiliated Grounds Maintenance Group Inc.
> 
> So ask away


What States are you contracting in?


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Dodge Ram 1996. we currently have contracts in 27 different states... mostly snow states
but we do have a large southeast division.

Johnny Royale, at the current time we have plans of moving into Canada but have not worked out all the business legal stuff yet.

Sullivan Septic, we do have a whole Mid West office Mike Nelson heads that up and is located in Napierville.

Just remember guys, the reason AGMG was started 12 years ago was to combat the other low price low quality Nationals. we stand up for contractors and we give you a voice in this type of market..... this is definitely an up hill battle we are fighting but little by little AGMG truely is making a difference.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Johnny Royale, I will be conducting a Build A Bid seminar at Landscape Ontarios office Sept. 1st. are you going to be there... and if so can we get 5 minutes and meet up.


----------



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

I did see that in a recent email from LO and was strongly considering it.


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

If you make yourself available, honestly and openly address the concerns of the contractors you deal with and treat them fairly, (oh yeah ~ and do what's right for the client) you'll be light years ahead of the big bad giant.

As big as they are, one would think they could at least window-dress and spin a positive PR.

Cricket noise just doesn't cut it.  Especially when you announce and assign a soul to monitor and address the concerns of many here.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

I would like to point out too, that using plowsite as a resource well most definetly work in your favor, being able to see more about the personalities of the contractors on here, what they are capable of etc. Imagine if (as a big community) someone was able to go to a big client (such as lets say Walmart) as a example, and lay out not just the money saved, but to have done the research on each WM, know which contractors are in good standing with the WM they do, and work with those contractors. I am sure USM and Corporate WM are hating dealing with all the cheap lowballers, with a pickup, who didn't do their WM stores very well and all the pissed store managers who lost great contractors over a couple of bucks, etc.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

TCLA;1057413 said:


> If you make yourself available, honestly and openly address the concerns of the contractors you deal with and treat them fairly, (oh yeah ~ and do what's right for the client) you'll be light years ahead of the big bad giant.
> 
> As big as they are, one would think they could at least window-dress and spin a positive PR.
> 
> Cricket noise just doesn't cut it.  Especially when you announce and assign a soul to monitor and address the concerns of many here.


more like a soul monitor to try and shut up as many people as possible, with BS!!!


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

buckwheat_la;1057415 said:


> I am sure USM and Corporate WM are hating dealing with all the cheap lowballers, with a pickup, who didn't do their WM stores very well and all the pissed store managers who lost great contractors over a couple of bucks, etc.


I wouldn't count on that. Bean counters and investors don't bother themselves with such detail.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

TCLA;1057419 said:


> I wouldn't count on that. Bean counters and investors don't bother themselves with such detail.


ever heard the expression "spend a dollar to save a dime" I would hope that at some point someone at WM would come to the realization that dealing with USM may have saved them money in some aspects, but is costing a lot more in other areas.

Someone in another thread mentioned that USM had lost a couple of corporate contracts, maybe those corporations started doing the math and realizing the cheap way isn't always the most economical way


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Just so you guys know, I am here because I have nothing to hide. Mike Nelson is on here again because we have nothing to hide.... One keynote to keep in mind about pricing, it is changing, it will continue to change and there is nothing any of can do about it... I look at it like a game if know the rules and you want to play go ahead. If you are going to play and think you can change the rules while you are playing that would be like playing the card game spades with an UNO deck just doesnt work.


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

buckwheat_la;1057421 said:


> ever heard the expression "spend a dollar to save a dime" I would hope that at some point someone at WM would come to the realization that dealing with USM may have saved them money in some aspects, but is costing a lot more in other areas.
> 
> Someone in another thread mentioned that USM had lost a couple of corporate contracts, maybe those corporations started doing the math and realizing the cheap way isn't always the most economical way


Hey Buckwheat, think about if for a second, you are talking about WM. They nickel and dime their suppliers to death, destroy markets, etc. Sound familiar.


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Rich Arlington;1057423 said:


> Just so you guys know, I am here because I have nothing to hide. Mike Nelson is on here again because we have nothing to hide.... One keynote to keep in mind about pricing, it is changing, it will continue to change and there is nothing any of can do about it... I look at it like a game if know the rules and you want to play go ahead. If you are going to play and think you can change the rules while you are playing that would be like playing the card game spades with an UNO deck just doesnt work.


Hey Rich, welcome to PS.


----------



## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

Playing Spades with an UNO deck...I like that one!


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Not to get into a big discussion about WM, but suppliers won't work for cost, i realize WM is always out for number one, but even WM would have to realize if a situation was getting to a point that they were losing more money by trying to save money, then by just spending a bit more. And if not, it well be their downfall, because eventually suppliers, contractors, etc, will run out, and WM well be left with a bunch of big expensive stores with no produce, no items, no contractors, etc. (all this is in a perfect world, but if there is one thing that the recession has proven, there is no such thing as too big to fail)


----------



## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1057423.... One keynote to keep in mind about pricing said:


> Rich,
> You and I have communicated about bids. Yes there is something we all can do about it.... not work for them!... There is still profitable work around if you look for it......


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1057423 said:


> Just so you guys know, I am here because I have nothing to hide. Mike Nelson is on here again because we have nothing to hide.... One keynote to keep in mind about pricing, it is changing, it will continue to change and there is nothing any of can do about it... I look at it like a game if know the rules and you want to play go ahead. If you are going to play and think you can change the rules while you are playing that would be like playing the card game spades with an UNO deck just doesnt work.


Of course pricing is changing, however the market can only sustain so much change in pricing, and as one of the larger companies, it is in your best interest (as well as the contractors) to keep pricing consistent, because even though we are in a low right now, eventually the weak contractors well be weeded out, then there well be demand again, and this is where USM is slitting its own throat, because when things are on the up swing, the contractors that companies like USM screwed, well be bad mouthing them to all the other contractors, and all contractors well have "USM pricing" which well be 20% higher then regular pricing


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

I agree with all of you... we are never the low bidder, however we dont think a Lowes should be 50,000 either. I used to be in the trucking industry and all of this conversations sound very familiar... the biggest problem we have as an industry is " there will always be somebody to take it" it may not be the best and heck they may even get sued or go bankrupt. I have learned one important thing being the industry for 25 + years, once the bar is set it will be next to impossible to raise it.


----------



## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Rich,
I strongly disagree with you about Lowes....based on the sow...... a lowes should be AT LEAST 50K... I'm sure when you were bidding (and not a national/regional) you were getting those rates yourself (you probably still do for your own personal biz)..... you know for yourself what it takes to do one of those lots. If you were to go by the sow your going to have close to 20% of that figure in salt/deicing material alone (unless of course this quality contractor is cutting corners.....) 

If your not working for one of "the big box stores" you should be getting more then the 50K for a comparable site...... 

many of us are doing it and doing it well ...... 

For any newbies reading this thread please don't think a lowes or comparable site with all that liability should go for 25-30K.... you'll be amazed how fast that "LARGE" number gets eatin' up by all your expenses!


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Just so we dont have any confusion. Both the lowes in my market go for around 20,000.00
we have 45 plowing events and up to 65 saltinging events...as I have stated things are changing... I dont make the rules of the game I am just playing it. If you can get that money good for you keep it up. All I am saying is it wont last, last year both Lowes and WM went National. Now you Walgreens, years ago Kohls and Target went National it is only a matter of time. 

Yes there will always be work at higher rates in every market. You just have to keep plugging along. These larger sites are beginning to use thier leverage because they know everybody wants thier work...I dont agree with the rules of the game I am just playing by them.


----------



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Rich Arlington;1057499 said:


> Just so we dont have any confusion. Both the lowes in my market go for around 20,000.00
> we have 45 plowing events and up to 65 saltinging events...


What does that include Rich?

I can't see anyone making any money at that price (assuming that number includes plowing and salting and walkways). IMO $50K is more like it.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Well keep in mind Erie is a 35.00 per truck hour market and we can not get more than 80.00 per ton of salt applied.......

I also can tell you that alot of the lowes in the country are under 25000 no matter what city that is the target price they wanted and although I only was 16 sites somebody got a bunch of them


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1057506 said:


> Well keep in mind Erie is a 35.00 per truck hour market and we can not get more than 80.00 per ton of salt applied.......
> 
> I *also can tell you that alot of the lowes in the country are under 25000 *no matter what city that is the target price they wanted and although I only was 16 sites somebody got a bunch of them


The Price have been driven that low By Nationals and or Pressure By the Nationals...


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

It is not the nationals driving pricing low... they customer says what they want to pay and there is always someone willing to do it. I have said over and over that we the contractors are our own worst enemy.... it is like a garage sale what is the lowest offer we will take... at some point we will hit bottom but then that will be the new bar.... 10 years ago Erie was 60.00 per truck hour now look where we are.


----------



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Wow...I have some operators that make more than that!

What is the delivered price for bulk salt your way Rich? 

And would it be safe to say one would require anywhere from 2.5-3.5 tonnes per application to treat all paved areas in a typical Lowes?


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

actually speaking salt per ton delivered to my site is around 55.00 and no we use 600 pounds per acre


----------



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Thats a great salt price in comparison to ours. 

I did a quick online measurement of a Lowes around here, and it measures just under 10 acres of paved surface including shipping areas and ring roads. 

$20 K is ridiculous.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Keep in mind that is for US lowes and yes some will be more some less... the average lowes is under 6 acres


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

JohnnyRoyale;1057522 said:


> Thats a great salt price in comparison to ours.
> 
> I did a quick online measurement of a Lowes around here, and it measures just under 10 acres of paved surface including shipping areas and ring roads.
> 
> $20 K is ridiculous.


I'm with you. You have to remember that you can buy a house in Erie for 100k. The large landscape companies are just as bad as nationals at screwing pricing. Quite frankly if the prices go in the crapper I'll just take the winters off. The only reason I like snow is because of the money, take that away and might as well go somewhere warm for the winter. Life is to short to work for nothing.


----------



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

JD Dave;1057529 said:


> I'm with you. You have to remember that you can buy a house in Erie for 100k. The large landscape companies are just as bad as nationals at screwing pricing. Quite frankly if the prices go in the crapper I'll just take the winters off. The only reason I like snow is because of the money, take that away and might as well go somewhere warm for the winter. Life is to short to work for nothing.


No kidding....


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

agreed...it is getting pretty crappy out there


----------



## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

ahhhh. such uplifting reading.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

i well put my two cents on this, in our market 20-30 events a year. most of the market here is worked and discussed with among us contractors, if we have good experiences, who is looking for more work, who has enough, etc. we still have competition but usually that revolves around performance. most of our pricing is pretty close to the same, and many times we chat a bit about who is charging more then others, etc, and if some accounts come looking for bids, and i have all i can handle, i can recommend contractors that still have room for more clients


----------



## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

I stopped doing the run arounds for AGMG. When Mike Folmar wants to contact me about a contract they actually have in my area I'll talk business again.


----------



## tman3007 (Jul 15, 2007)

I am sorry guys, but hearing all this talk about 20k to do a Lowes at or around 6 acres is so depressing. Especially when you are talking about 45 snow events and 60 plus salting events. Get your calculators out and do some basic math...we could all plow a local gas station for more profit! 

The industry is not heading backwards, it's heading down the crapper. All kidding aside, I just went through my books and in the last 3 years at our local Walmart that we serviced we had 4 "single" snow events that we billed out more than $20,000 (for one store). We worked our tails off for that money (no sleep for 2 days) but we earned it!!! 

Now if you put me in that same situation and I knew I was gonna be in my truck for a minimum of 48 hours (plowing a heavy spring snow blizzard) with no sleep and knowing that I'm now LOSING money...where is the motivation to even give a crap! I just don't see the point of this nonsense.

People will just come on here and say that that is just what the industry or market will bear nowadays. Well I say that I can make just as much sitting in front of a warm cozy fire with my 4 beautiful kids and wife for 6 months. 

Am I bitter for losing my Walmart to USM this year? You bet your sweet hiney I am...but I won't contribute to the downfall of our industry either by signing on with these nationals. 

Sorry folks but like I said, get your calculators out and do some simple math before you sign on that dotted line. 

Todd


----------



## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Scottscape;1057754 said:


> I stopped doing the run arounds for AGMG. When Mike Folmar wants to contact me about a contract they actually have in my area I'll talk business again.


Ahmen....

Rich, sorry to say it, your company is as bad as all the rest..... so what if the customer WANTS to pay a certain amount..... I want to pay 10K for a brand new 3500 truck... If I were to go into a dealership and tell them that, they'd laugh at me..... you people (as nationals) HAVE to take the same approach with these big companies.... You may be blind with your thought process but your HELPING in more ways then you think to drive prices down. You said it yourself, that the contractors are their own worst competition. Techinally speaking you, as nationals, are the contractors.... we're only subs... YOUR THE ONES DRIVING DOWN PRICES... you said it yourself!

You guys did some good PR at RI but I personally think it was all smoke and mirrors.

So when you LAND a SIGNED contract in Maine you can call me, then and IF its a reasonable amount we'll talk. Not that Ridiculous amount that I won't mention for the Lowes in Maine. Otherwise, I'm done doing the legwork for you and every other national out there. Theres too much PROFITABLE work around to waste my valuable time on working for these nationals!

I've said my what I wanted to say, as this is my last comment on this thread........

carry on......


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

tman3007;1057781 said:


> I am sorry guys, but hearing all this talk about 20k to do a Lowes at or around 6 acres is so depressing. Especially when you are talking about 45 snow events and 60 plus salting events. Get your calculators out and do some basic math...we could all plow a local gas station for more profit!
> 
> The industry is not heading backwards, it's heading down the crapper. All kidding aside, I just went through my books and in the last 3 years at our local Walmart that we serviced we had 4 "single" snow events that we billed out more than $20,000 (for one store). We worked our tails off for that money (no sleep for 2 days) but we earned it!!!
> 
> ...





Mick76;1057785 said:


> Ahmen....
> 
> Rich, sorry to say it, your company is as bad as all the rest..... so what if the customer WANTS to pay a certain amount..... I want to pay 10K for a brand new 3500 truck... If I were to go into a dealership and tell them that, they'd laugh at me..... you people (as nationals) HAVE to take the same approach with these big companies.... You may be blind with your thought process but your HELPING in more ways then you think to drive prices down. You said it yourself, that the contractors are their own worst competition. Techinally speaking you, as nationals, are the contractors.... we're only subs... YOUR THE ONES DRIVING DOWN PRICES... you said it yourself!
> 
> ...


i've said it before and well say it again, the best thing we can do for our buisness is to refer contractors (newbies especially) to plowsite, half the issues out there is a lack of education on how to bid, and the bad national companies. it is time contractors start banding together (and to hell with competition)


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Rich Arlington;1057499 said:


> Just so we dont have any confusion. Both the lowes in my market go for around 20,000.00
> we have 45 plowing events and up to 65 saltinging events...as I have stated things are changing... I dont make the rules of the game I am just playing it. If you can get that money good for you keep it up. All I am saying is it wont last, last year both Lowes and WM went National. Now you Walgreens, years ago Kohls and Target went National it is only a matter of time.
> 
> Yes there will always be work at higher rates in every market. You just have to keep plugging along. These larger sites are beginning to use thier leverage because they know everybody wants thier work...I dont agree with the rules of the game I am just playing by them.





Rich Arlington;1057506 said:



> Well keep in mind Erie is a 35.00 per truck hour market and we can not get more than 80.00 per ton of salt applied.......
> 
> I also can tell you that alot of the lowes in the country are under 25000 no matter what city that is the target price they wanted and although I only was 16 sites somebody got a bunch of them





Rich Arlington;1057517 said:


> actually speaking salt per ton delivered to my site is around 55.00 and no we use 600 pounds per acre





Rich Arlington;1057527 said:


> Keep in mind that is for US lowes and yes some will be more some less... the average lowes is under 6 acres


Had some time on my hands and did some math. Lowes 5 acres with 45 plowable & 65 salting events all for the price of 20 grand. -----
43,560 sq.ft. in an acre X 5 = 217,800.00 sq.ft. comes out to .091 cents a sq.ft.------------
Salt 600 lbs per acre x 5 = 3000 lbs or 1.5 tons of salt X 65 events = 97.5 tons used.-----
97.5 tons of salt @ $55.00 a ton = $5,362.50 cost of salt. You get $25.00 per ton to apply this salt, so $37.50 per application X 65 = $2,437.50 for your salting.
Contract $20,000 - 5,362.50 salt - $2,437.50 to apply leaves $12,200 or .056 cents a sq.ft.-
$12,200 divided by 45 plowable events = $271.00 per event to plow. To keep things simple lets say it takes 5 hours to plow with 1 truck that costs $35.00/hr = $175.00.per event, X 45 = $7875.00 subtract that from the $12,200.00 leaving $4,325.00 Not bad for the contractor, but what about those subs, no way they can be making any money. I have lots of respect for you Rich, you have helped many, and continue to. The advice you so freely give and your support to this industry is #1. I cannot accept that's where the industry is heading, and its the way to play the game. Maybe I'm naive, or in denial, but I for one will not play by these new rules. I may not win the battle, but I still got a good fight in me. Paul


----------



## ChicagoPlower (Dec 16, 2005)

Neige;1057830 said:


> Had some time on my hands and did some math. Lowes 5 acres with 45 plowable & 65 salting events all for the price of 20 grand. -----
> 43,560 sq.ft. in an acre X 5 = 217,800.00 sq.ft. comes out to .091 cents a sq.ft.------------
> Salt 600 lbs per acre x 5 = 3000 lbs or 1.5 tons of salt X 65 events = 97.5 tons used.-----
> 97.5 tons of salt @ $55.00 a ton = $5,362.50 cost of salt. You get $25.00 per ton to apply this salt, so $37.50 per application X 65 = $2,437.50 for your salting.
> ...


Neige- You said it perfect.


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Neige;1057830 said:


> Had some time on my hands and did some math. Lowes 5 acres with 45 plowable & 65 salting events all for the price of 20 grand. -----
> 43,560 sq.ft. in an acre X 5 = 217,800.00 sq.ft. comes out to .091 cents a sq.ft.------------
> Salt 600 lbs per acre x 5 = 3000 lbs or 1.5 tons of salt X 65 events = 97.5 tons used.-----
> 97.5 tons of salt @ $55.00 a ton = $5,362.50 cost of salt. You get $25.00 per ton to apply this salt, so $37.50 per application X 65 = $2,437.50 for your salting.
> ...


Very well said sir! :salute:

tymusic

As sad as this is, I'm confident he will be successful in finding someone to take this on.


----------



## fireball (Jan 9, 2000)

Thank you Neige for putting this discussion in the proper context of dollars and cents. If you consider the rate of investment(total cost of the equipment to do the job can make a interest charge in a savings account instead)you can knock off another 1500.00 from that 4300.00.

And thank you Rich for attempting to bring a degree of knowledge and wisdom to the table. Unfortunately, what the big companies and the Nationals have figured out is how much you are going to make off them. What Neige has proven very simply is you can make money doing a Lowes for 20,000, but that is all you are going to make, if everything is going your way. They limit the profits and they limit their exposure to losses. They are not going to rush in to help if weather turns against you.

Sadly TCA is right, someone will step up to the plate. I just hope he/she likes peanuts


----------



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Paul's calculations only reflect the cost of doing the work. There are many other expenses which have to be recovered and haven't yet been accounted for. 

Are peanuts more expensive than potatoes?


----------



## vt properties (Jan 28, 2010)

JohnnyRoyale;1057522 said:


> Thats a great salt price in comparison to ours.
> 
> I did a quick online measurement of a Lowes around here, and it measures just under 10 acres of paved surface including shipping areas and ring roads.
> 
> $20 K is ridiculous.


agreed 20k for 10 acres of paved is way to low. Loaders are way to expensive to operate and buy for that matter not much profit in a 35 plow 45 ice event winter when you consider all the overhead involved with that size property


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Neige;1057830 said:


> Had some time on my hands and did some math. Lowes 5 acres with 45 plowable & 65 salting events all for the price of 20 grand. -----
> 43,560 sq.ft. in an acre X 5 = 217,800.00 sq.ft. comes out to .091 cents a sq.ft.------------
> Salt 600 lbs per acre x 5 = 3000 lbs or 1.5 tons of salt X 65 events = 97.5 tons used.-----
> 97.5 tons of salt @ $55.00 a ton = $5,362.50 cost of salt. You get $25.00 per ton to apply this salt, so $37.50 per application X 65 = $2,437.50 for your salting.
> ...


You Canadians are Smart People...Im glad i live so close....:waving:...:salute:


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

I am mixed on this whole subject. I'm going into my 4th year of commercial snow management and I initially was able to get into the commercial side of things because a national exterior service management company gave me an opportunity with a mid sized lot for a national customer that kind of gave me exposure that I feel I would not have had otherwise or maybe would have taken longer to get. After successfully plowing this particular lot my first year doing commercial, I began to get noticed in the local commercial market and things started taking off from there. At the same time, I became they're (the ESM company) go to guy for anything snow in my area. I seem to do well with them. I know my costs and what I need to make, so I put in my numbers for what I need to charge and if I get it with them great, if not then it is what it is and I move onto the next thing. The lots we do that they gave me a budget for are more than fair and are actually more $ than I know I could get for it in any other situation. 

Now, to the other side of all this for me. My biggest problem is that I can't develop a lasting business relationship with these clients because they go through the ESM company. So for instance, next year if a different ESM company comes in and takes the contract then I'm out of a contract and it was 100% out of my control which I really don't like. What I'm saying is at the end of the day the quality of my service isn't going to retain a contract, the only thing that will do that is if they happen to get the contract the following year. I don't even have the opportunity to "sell" our services to the client because it all comes down to the numbers and how corporate relations go with the two big companies. 

I see the stores loosing out on this deal as well in one aspect because each year they could have a different contractor that needs to adapt and learn the site and management of the store, and they have no control over the quality of the contractor they are hiring. The local reputation of the quality of their national store is more dependent upon some guys talking numbers halfway across the country and less dependent on the individual stores unique needs... This is a process that I know management doesn't like. I have been really trying to build my local commercial portfolio with industrial parks, etc because of this.

Maybe I'm one of the only ones with somewhat of a positive outlook on this whole thing because I came into this market pretty much how it is now. I don't know how it was before, I've never got some of these crazy numbers I hear guys talking about they used to get, and my entire business has been built on the current snow market, this is how it is to me. Adapt and over come! 

Now to these guys getting prices of 10 grand or whatever for a wal-mart from USM, and then not even getting paid, I don't really know what to say but just move on...I wouldn't put up with that for a second. Just let them figure it out, thats not the type of people I would want to work for anyways.


----------



## northernsweeper (Aug 26, 2004)

Hey Rich,

Welcome to Plowsite. Please stay out of my state, we have enough problems!!


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

I am not sticking up for Nationals, we ask for contractor pricing before we submit any pricing to the client. This is primarily why we dont win most bids. Yes with my experience I could just submit pricing then go and try to find the contractors like others do, but as a contractor myself I dont feel that is the right way to do it. If we win a national bid with ridiculous numbers it is only because a contractor gave them to us. Just like you we decided that 1% of alot of something is better than 100% of nothing.


----------



## Kramer (Nov 13, 2004)

Neige;1057830 said:


> Had some time on my hands and did some math. Lowes 5 acres with 45 plowable & 65 salting events all for the price of 20 grand. -----
> 43,560 sq.ft. in an acre X 5 = 217,800.00 sq.ft. comes out to .091 cents a sq.ft.------------
> Salt 600 lbs per acre x 5 = 3000 lbs or 1.5 tons of salt X 65 events = 97.5 tons used.-----
> 97.5 tons of salt @ $55.00 a ton = $5,362.50 cost of salt. You get $25.00 per ton to apply this salt, so $37.50 per application X 65 = $2,437.50 for your salting.
> ...


I guess its somewhat market dependent, but there's no chance I'm plowing anything for $35/hr.

The nationals are all trying to make it sound like they are in charge and they will decide the market.

They don't have a snow shovel. Just dont work for them and the work will be there at a decent rate. Continue signing up and you throw not only your own future aweay but also your kids if they want to enter the business. Anyone laughing at this needs to wake up and look around. You don't have to go any further than the search button.

I'm glad AGMG has people on board who have industry experience and understand the challenges of plowing. That doesn't change the fact that you are just positioning yourself in the middle to take essentially free money. Yes, marketing is a big cost---but if local guys deduct the cost of some extra marketing from what their standard service is for a given location, I'm pretty sure tey will be spending less than what the nationals are taking awy from them.
You can't avoid the fact that in that even though you are in the middle position as a national, you still have to compete with the other nationals and just by that, prices will do nothing but erode. That is a fact.

The nationals only prosper when people sign up to do their work for less than its worth.

Break it down to an hourly rate and doing residentials is a much better deal than the big wallyworld or lowes. Less equipment, less overhead in general, less breakdowns, almost never a slip and fall, and diversified customer list reduces overall business risk. Sure you gotta work at it but its your own business...you're not a national sub.

Good summary neige.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

IMO you know what the real problem is? us contractors haven't started our OWN managment company/companies. Now here is a idea, get one or two contractors from each major market, and HIRE office staff (at our expense) to orgainze and bid contracts. Management companies are acting as middle men, why can't we cut out the middlemen? i am sure by the time you add in the money the management companies take in all of a sudden there would be money to go around and pretty soon $35/hour would look more like $75-$100/hour. Also a big corporate contract could be rest assured that a large group of responsible and experienced contractors would police themselves, would keep lowballers and hacks out, and carry proper insurance and registration. AND if this was done right, what need would there be for these management companies, etc. I would also add that places like plowsite/lawnsite, already have the infastructure to make the connections with other contractors.


----------



## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

buckwheat_la;1058123 said:


> IMO you know what the real problem is? us contractors haven't started our OWN managment company/companies. Now here is a idea, get one or two contractors from each major market, and HIRE office staff (at our expense) to orgainze and bid contracts. Management companies are acting as middle men, why can't we cut out the middlemen? i am sure by the time you add in the money the management companies take in all of a sudden there would be money to go around and pretty soon $35/hour would look more like $75-$100/hour. Also a big corporate contract could be rest assured that a large group of responsible and experienced contractors would police themselves, would keep lowballers and hacks out, and carry proper insurance and registration. AND if this was done right, what need would there be for these management companies, etc. I would also add that places like plowsite/lawnsite, already have the infastructure to make the connections with other contractors.


That would still be a National company with divisions in different area's. I also commend Rich for taking his company to the next level. Do you even have a National service provider in Alberta?


----------



## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

buckwheat_la;1058123 said:


> IMO you know what the real problem is? us contractors haven't started our OWN managment company/companies. Now here is a idea, get one or two contractors from each major market, and HIRE office staff (at our expense) to orgainze and bid contracts. Management companies are acting as middle men, why can't we cut out the middlemen? i am sure by the time you add in the money the management companies take in all of a sudden there would be money to go around and pretty soon $35/hour would look more like $75-$100/hour. Also a big corporate contract could be rest assured that a large group of responsible and experienced contractors would police themselves, would keep lowballers and hacks out, and carry proper insurance and registration. AND if this was done right, what need would there be for these management companies, etc. I would also add that places like plowsite/lawnsite, already have the infastructure to make the connections with other contractors.


Great fantasy.

Cost cutting is the key for these companies. They would just go find a hack on the street that wasn't a part of our "conglomerate, and he'd do it cheaper." Furthermore, organization for the purpose of raising or fixing prices is frowned upon by our fantastic government.


----------



## Longae29 (Feb 15, 2008)

buckwheat_la;1058123 said:


> IMO you know what the real problem is? us contractors haven't started our OWN managment company/companies. Now here is a idea, get one or two contractors from each major market, and HIRE office staff (at our expense) to orgainze and bid contracts. Management companies are acting as middle men, why can't we cut out the middlemen? i am sure by the time you add in the money the management companies take in all of a sudden there would be money to go around and pretty soon $35/hour would look more like $75-$100/hour. Also a big corporate contract could be rest assured that a large group of responsible and experienced contractors would police themselves, would keep lowballers and hacks out, and carry proper insurance and registration. AND if this was done right, what need would there be for these management companies, etc. I would also add that places like plowsite/lawnsite, already have the infastructure to make the connections with other contractors.


If I'm not mistaken that is what Rich Arlington has done.....


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

JD Dave;1058131 said:


> That would still be a National company with divisions in different area's. I also commend Rich for taking his company to the next level. Do you even have a National service provider in Alberta?


Do we have national service providers out here, of course. They may not be as large as some out east but they are here. I think rich is to be commended especially for coming on here and putting his business out there to questioned. What I am suggesting is that a organization of snow contractors for the purpose of multi building contracts, heck we already do it to some extent right here on plowsite.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

hoskm01;1058132 said:


> Great fantasy.
> 
> Cost cutting is the key for these companies. They would just go find a hack on the street that wasn't a part of our "conglomerate, and he'd do it cheaper." Furthermore, organization for the purpose of raising or fixing prices is frowned upon by our fantastic government.


I agree about the price fixing but I don't think price fixing is what I am saying it would still be whatever price was quoted by each contractor. Besides gas prices are all fixed by companies


----------



## ColumbiaLand (Sep 1, 2008)




----------



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

ColumbiaLand;1058168 said:


>


Whats up man! Ready for another Baltimore trip?payup


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

i am not sure i understand why everyone is sh!tting on my for the idea  I think i am giving up on this thread, everyone likes a to belly ache, no one wishes to discuss solutions. 

To Rich, I wish the best of luck, as far as a management company/provider, you seem to be on the up and up.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks for all the great Koodoos... and yes that is what I am attempting to do, That is why we ask for your pricing before we bid the contract... that being said, that is also why we dont win most of the stuff we bid on... the others have the ability to babysit and deal with inexperienced plowers I do not. I want qualified experienced companies, and yes some of them too are relatively cheap. They are still profitable because they have low overhead and multiple sites to spread out the risk... I hope someday all Nationals are gone as I am a contractor in Erie and it was a National that destroyed my market and made it 35 per hour... that was about 6 years ago and here we are still at the same price...


----------



## ColumbiaLand (Sep 1, 2008)

I know how you feel rich, every year I get more and more calls from new companies or the same companies having more sites.After bidding on many sites for many companies over the years you are the only national company that I would want to work for if you took my numbers


----------



## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Buck,

I have often thought of the same thing. A co op of snow companies that get together and put all these nationals out of business. While price is an issue for these companies the ease of one contact and one check is the real draw.


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

lilweeds;1058463 said:


> Buck,
> 
> I have often thought of the same thing. A co op of snow companies that get together and put all these nationals out of business. While price is an issue for these companies the ease of one contact and one check is the real draw.


Are these large corporations (lowes, wal-mart, best buy, etc) really saving that much on the actual plowing cost? Because these nationals need to make their money too, and they seem to make a lot of it. So what I'm saying is that after we make our money, the nationals add their profit margin to the price, when it gets back to Lowes or something I would assume that they're paying about the same price as before...

I think the real savings for these companies comes with reducing administrative costs. They don't need to have hundreds of people processing invoicing and payments to hundreds or even thousands of snow contractors. That can save them a lot of money on payroll, and benefits, etc...

Its definitely not a perfect system for anyone but the national ESM companies, but as we all know its how the industry is going. If thats how they want to play the game, then I will make it work for me and so far I have done very well making it work.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

lilweeds;1058463 said:


> Buck,
> 
> I have often thought of the same thing. A co op of snow companies that get together and put all these nationals out of business. While price is an issue for these companies the ease of one contact and one check is the real draw.





merrimacmill;1058476 said:


> Are these large corporations (lowes, wal-mart, best buy, etc) really saving that much on the actual plowing cost? Because these nationals need to make their money too, and they seem to make a lot of it. So what I'm saying is that after we make our money, the nationals add their profit margin to the price, when it gets back to Lowes or something I would assume that they're paying about the same price as before...
> 
> I think the real savings for these companies comes with reducing administrative costs. They don't need to have hundreds of people processing invoicing and payments to hundreds or even thousands of snow contractors. That can save them a lot of money on payroll, and benefits, etc...
> 
> Its definitely not a perfect system for anyone but the national ESM companies, but as we all know its how the industry is going. If thats how they want to play the game, then I will make it work for me and so far I have done very well making it work.


here is the deal (as plain as i can make it) As these big corporate box stores have expanded into many markets, and centralized their corporate holdings, they have looked for easier(less office work) ways to accomplish things like maintenance/purchasing etc. Enter the big management/providers, they are going in and saying we well do all the work of setting up service to ALL the locations, take a cut, and the headache is now away from the corporate store. Now if us contractors could find a way to make it easier for those corporate stores to arrange contractors for their properties, don't you think they would like to eliminate the middleman too? I don't have a insta solution, but my thinking along the matter is this; us small contractors need to change how the game is played, come up with a way to entice the corporate stores into going back to finding contractors on a individual site to site level. Now if that is a Co-Op, or some other idea, then so be it. Rich did find his own way to deal with the situation, unfortunately it doesn't help many of the small contractors losing contracts to USM, Level One, etc


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

merrimacmill;1058476 said:


> Are these large corporations (lowes, wal-mart, best buy, etc) really saving that much on the actual plowing cost? Because these nationals need to make their money too, and they seem to make a lot of it. So what I'm saying is that after we make our money, the nationals add their profit margin to the price, when it gets back to Lowes or something I would assume that they're paying about the same price as before...
> 
> I think the real savings for these companies comes with reducing administrative costs. They don't need to have hundreds of people processing invoicing and payments to hundreds or even thousands of snow contractors. That can save them a lot of money on payroll, and benefits, etc...
> 
> Its definitely not a perfect system for anyone but the national ESM companies, but as we all know its how the industry is going. If thats how they want to play the game, then I will make it work for me and so far I have done very well making it work.


More then likely they are paying the same amount. If Walsmart pays one million for snow removal to local contractors or one million to Nationals they are out the same amount of money. The nationals are in there to take part of the money and pay out less. In the mean time they are holding the money collecting interest on it .So when you didn't get paid they say you never sent an invoice in and to resubmit it ,that means they are holding onto the money for a little longer collecting more interest.


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

grandview;1058774 said:


> More then likely they are paying the same amount. If Walsmart pays one million for snow removal to local contractors or one million to Nationals they are out the same amount of money. The nationals are in there to take part of the money and pay out less. In the mean time they are holding the money collecting interest on it .So when you didn't get paid they say you never sent an invoice in and to resubmit it ,that means they are holding onto the money for a little longer collecting more interest.


I've always wondered if they are getting paid in a lump sum for these places. I have thought maybe thats why companies like dentco have a net 45 on payment for seasonal contracts.


----------



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Rich,

This has become a hot thread with many side discussions about the type of service AGMG and others provide national retailers or property owners.

Just so you know...I have never erased so many posts before hitting the "Submit Reply" button before as my posts would have either been erased by MJ or would spark too much controversy and create more sideline discussions (worthy of their own thread).

So back to your original post...



Rich Arlington;1057140 said:


> I am Rich Arlington III CSP CLP, I am here to answer questions you may have about Affiliated Grounds Maintenance Group Inc.
> 
> So ask away


How does AGMG make money?


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Well, this has gotten way off topic.... I just wanted to answer questions you have about AGMG... so Johnny we make a percentage on top of your bid, we do not take your money, we do not hold money. the same day the customer pays your check goes out... this is proven by reading the thread of one of our contractors where he referrs to us calling him to get his invoice.. we dont want your money we only want ours...


----------



## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

I do some subbing for a local guy here. We are all paid within 2 weeks. I know for a fact that he wasn't getting paid in two weeks.


----------



## SullivanSeptic (Nov 30, 2008)

Rich Arlington;1058976 said:


> Well, this has gotten way off topic.... I just wanted to answer questions you have about AGMG... so Johnny we make a percentage on top of your bid, we do not take your money, we do not hold money. the same day the customer pays your check goes out... this is proven by reading the thread of one of our contractors where he referrs to us calling him to get his invoice.. we dont want your money we only want ours...


I agree its way off topic. Rich I don't know you but I appreciate you being open to some critisism here. So far I give you credit for being on here and being honest. Just keep in mind that there are a lot of ill feelings towards larger managment companies due to some shady tactics. I don't think it is meant to be personal towards you, just towards large managment companies in general. Good luck and maybe we will cross paths sometime in the future


----------



## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Wow if I knew rich was in charge of agmg, I would have ask him a bunch of questions yesterday!


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

From what I've read on some threads here is that these management companies delay payments to the sub contractors. I feel that these companies should have the capital to pay the subs right away regardless if they have been paid and not pass the buck saying they are waiting to get paid.


----------



## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

I think that is how it has to work. That is why you can justify your % of the pot. You are paying no matter what and dealing with the customer.


----------



## Mick (May 19, 2001)

I haven't read through the whole thread, but wanted to wish you well. Mentioning Mike Nelson as a partner put you several pegs up the ladder, as far as I'm concerned. I just hope you don't crash and burn like someone else some of us know.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Here you go, Ajsland please ask away that is why I am here. For the rest, yes we do have to wait for the client to pay so we can pay you... I am sure in your business you must receive money before you can pay out money. Now that being said, we do not have a single client who takes long to pay and that is why we can pay our contractors fast. Just FYI we work for most of the same clients as the others, so I dont have a good reason why they take so long to pay... we even have some clients ie big box who pay in less than 15 days....

This being said, please do not group AGMG in with all the others we are different and plan to stay that way.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Mick, 
I never said Mike Nelson was a partner. Mike heads up our Midwest office and is an employee. He is our National Business Development Director and our Midwest Regional Manager not a partner. AGMG is 100% owned and run by Crystal Arlington CSP CLP. I am her CFO and National Business Manager. I have my own company Arlington Lawncare www. arlingtonlawncare.com that I work on everyday plus my Consulting business Rich Arlington & Associates. www.richarlington.com


----------



## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

I disagree Rich, we often don't get paid for 45-60 days... but our subs get paid every 30 give or take a couple days. Very rarely have we been late, unless they were late getting us the invoices. I think it should work that way for your type of business as well. I am not trying to be a jerk, but I think that is fair. You are making something on top without doing the work to deal with those types of issues. Every year we have problems around Christmas getting paid because everyone is on holiday... so do I tell subs that they won't be paid until the new year, merry Christmas? Or do we take the hit and make sure we have good and loyal subs?

I know I am talking on a super small scale compared to what you must deal with, but I don't think that matters.

We have 8 of our own trucks, 10 or so trucks that plow with us in the winter, and some smaller equipment (bobcats) who are subs as well. They all must be paid or we would fall apart. What happens if you have to go to court to be paid by Company X, do you tell your contractors tough luck? Give me a few years?


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Pristine, you never heard me say that we take over 30 days to pay. In the 12 years of AGMG's existance no contractor has had to wait. we do not take 45 -60 days to pay. we are probably the only NSP that will actually call a contractor and ask them for thier bill because we want to pay and they have not submitted a bill yet. read through this whole post you find our contractors telling you that. 

The only item I was responding to was the fact that you must have money to spend money. I was not sticking up for other Nationals who take too long to pay, or hold your money, or play games like oh we lost your invoice or you are not in compliance that is why you didnt get paid. I think those excuses are all crap.


----------



## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

I do give you credit for coming on her to let us not to get AGMG mixed up with the other nationals as we all have a bad taste in our mouth from them. I'm a registered contractor with you guys and have submitted a few bids previously but I get a whole lot of junk from Mike wanting me to submit bids. I ran my tail off last season when you guys wanted the DG's to find out that you didn't have the contract and after numerous calls to Mike about what the word is. Let me know when you guys actually have something snow wise.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

We only issue contracts to the contractors that submitted bids... it would not be fair of me to get bids from other contractors in your market and then call you once we get it to discuss your pricing... just like all work you must submit to get it.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

to those complaining about having to submit bids and not get them, maybe you should rethink your positions. At least you are getting a chance to get the numbers you want BEFORE the national comes in and DICTATES to you what you well be getting paid. In this Rich and I agree, one of the reasons some of these nationals are such a PITA is because they go in, bid too low, then go fishing for contractors to do work (and we have all complained about this at some point) If the worst thing you need to do is a bunch of driving around and quotes for jobs, is it really any different then if the company phoned you directly?

As far as the payment scheduling, i respectfully disagree with rich (all though i think it is admirable that his contracts are set up to pay net 30days or less) the fact is that if i work for you my contract is WITH YOU!!! so why should i know (or care) why/when you get paid.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

buckwheat_la;1059330 said:


> As far as the payment scheduling, i respectfully disagree with rich (all though i think it is admirable that his contracts are set up to pay net 30days or less) the fact is that if i work for you my contract is WITH YOU!!! so why should i know (or care) why/when you get paid.


Agreed.That's what I said in my post.

Rich your company sent out an e mail looking for bids for Tops Supermarkets. The email came out on 8/9 and you wanted a full bid on due to your office on the 12th .How many guys were able to go look at the sites put the bid together and get it back to you? So my question do you have the contract with the parent company to send out RFP?


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Grandview. yes we were issued the right to bid this process. I sent it out to contractors the exact day we recieved it. the end date for our RFP is alway one day before ours, so we can make our sheet. 

as for payment... how do you work with a CBRE or a Jones Lang Lasalle, they only pay after they recieve payment. or most Property management companies they work the same way... if you work for HOA or other associations, they can not pay until the residents pay thier dues...


----------



## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1059342 said:


> Grandview. yes we were issued the right to bid this process. I sent it out to contractors the exact day we recieved it. the end date for our RFP is alway one day before ours, so we can make our sheet.
> 
> as for payment... how do you work with a CBRE or a Jones Lang Lasalle, they only pay after they recieve payment. or most Property management companies they work the same way... if you work for HOA or other associations, they can not pay until the residents pay thier dues...


I pay my subs before I get paid ... then again I work for honest profit margins, not pennies


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Rich, I do plow for Jones LaSalle or Citizens bank. I dealt with the bank property manager. This year a property management company is sticking their nose it now. They started the bidding back in May/June and it's all being done on line. The property manager can't figure out how the bank is saving any money working with them.
As said before,there is a pot of money to be paid out. So how much of the money is being taken out first by the management company?
I send an invoice to the bank and get paid by them. They never tell me I won't get paid till they get reimbursed by the parent company.


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

grandview;1059332 said:


> Agreed.That's what I said in my post.
> 
> Rich your company sent out an e mail looking for bids for Tops Supermarkets. The email came out on 8/9 and you wanted a full bid on due to your office on the 12th .How many guys were able to go look at the sites put the bid together and get it back to you? So my question do you have the contract with the parent company to send out RFP?


This is my issue with Nationals...They want us the contractor to do all the leg work...I must have gotten 10-20 request for bids on propertys this past couple of months...Not One of the companys (Nationals) had the accounts..Im not running around bidding propertys for the National.....Heres a thought Rich..Bid the propertys yourself...Come see the property. Figure out the market yourself...Insted, you get a bunch of contractors to run arond like fools and send bids to you..Then you sift through them...Pick a low one...Im not saying the lowest..Tack your 10% on to it and send it along to the company.......If you want to be a player in lets say the Detroit Market...Why dont you come up here and Bid the propertys yourself......Their was another company out of Erie that did the same thing you are doing now....where is he now...Just broken promises and bills left unpaid...Good luck to you Rich...


----------



## Pristine PM ltd (Oct 15, 2005)

Rich Arlington;1059300 said:


> Pristine, you never heard me say that we take over 30 days to pay. In the 12 years of AGMG's existance no contractor has had to wait. we do not take 45 -60 days to pay. we are probably the only NSP that will actually call a contractor and ask them for thier bill because we want to pay and they have not submitted a bill yet. read through this whole post you find our contractors telling you that.
> 
> The only item I was responding to was the fact that you must have money to spend money. I was not sticking up for other Nationals who take too long to pay, or hold your money, or play games like oh we lost your invoice or you are not in compliance that is why you didnt get paid. I think those excuses are all crap.


Hi Rich,

Name is Jon btw, and yes, you clearly said that you pay when you get paid. That is great if you have never taken more then 30 days from the time of invoice to pay, but as a policy I don't agree with it. You should pay like clockwork always, because people's live count on that payment. As you become a bigger company, I think your policy will become more of an issue, vs. paying when you should pay. Is that fair of me to say?


----------



## csi.northcoast (Aug 7, 2010)

Here is my take, Rich is not doing anything different than what we would do in the same situation. A very wise Vice President of a major world wide company once told me to think cash not profit....If you don't get paid what good is your profit margin. I think and hopefully i am wrong that the payment issue is going to be dragged out even more this year whether you are working with nationals or not .. I see it in my "summer business" construction/demolition. I have been involved in snow mangement for over 25 years 10 with my own company, and all of us need to be very careful that we can make money (because lets face it our insurance, fuel etc is not going to wait for money) but that we can get paid on time

ok I will get down off my soap box..

PS from what i have read and heard... Rich and his company at least are trying to do right by us but based on the :"others" he has got and uphill battle


----------



## ff610 (Jan 9, 2009)

Matson Snow;1059348 said:


> This is my issue with Nationals...They want us the contractor to do all the leg work...I must have gotten 10-20 request for bids on propertys this past couple of months...Not One of the companys (Nationals) had the accounts..Im not running around bidding propertys for the National.....Heres a thought Rich..Bid the propertys yourself...Come see the property. Figure out the market yourself...Insted, you get a bunch of contractors to run arond like fools and send bids to you..Then you sift through them...Pick a low one...Im not saying the lowest..Tack your 10% on to it and send it along to the company.......If you want to be a player in lets say the Detroit Market...Why dont you come up here and Bid the propertys yourself......Their was another company out of Erie that did the same thing you are doing now....where is he now...Just broken promises and bills left unpaid...Good luck to you Rich...


Are you serious?? Contractors do the leg work? Isn't that what we do as contractors is bid on jobs. Certainly we don't get all of them either, but it's the cost of doing business. If your too busy to chase new work, then obviously you don't need the extra income, so no loss right? I have seen the problems that some of the national's have caused don't get me wrong, but I have to tell you, I see just as much of it with new and inexperienced contractors low balling accounts all over in size. Typically they can't keep customers happy, can't afford to maintain equipment, and can't keep payroll sufficient enough to keep good employees. The customer usually learns a lesson and go back to plan A. Again, it was said earlier we are are worst enemies! To simply blame the Nationals is ridiculous. As for the nationals coming to my town and bidding on the properties..... No Way! What if for example Rich comes to my city and bids my local area using the costs that he is custom to in Erie? There is no way that would fly around here. So how do you expect that to work? Don't be naive and think that he doesn't spend any time looking at any of the work either. He was even in Iowa looking at work a few weeks back. What I'm trying to say is we have a choice, plain and simple. We can bid on work at prices we are comfortable making a profit, or simply decline. It is up to us 100%. Some contractors are happy with their size and profits, and some have different goals. To each their own! Is that not the luxury of being in business for ourselves? I think of it like this, since I have experience in building homes. A National Service Provider is basically the same as a General Contractor. The General is paid a percentage to oversee building a house. Why, because most homeowners don't have the knowledge, and don't wanna deal with the hassles involved. The General is the one that gets to receive the earful's, and make sure the project is on schedule etc. Why would the big box stores not want this? Really? My wife is a store manager for a big box store. She doesn't have the experience nor the time to take bids, follow up with work done, and track their invoices. She doesn't even see the bills! Is this right? Some would agree to disagree, but it is the way it is. I've been in the business for over 20 years, so I'll say it again, if you don't want the work, then don't bid on it. I haven't worked for a National Service Provider in 20 years partially because I had no reason to, but because I have never wanted a project they were bidding. Some grow, some shrink, some just complain. It's the cost of doing business! Times have changed my friends, we can either change with them, or be left in the dust. I wish I was able to profit what I did 10 years ago, but it isn't gonna happen. With experience we learn valuable lessons. These lessons come at a price! Good day.


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

What 4024 is saying I think is .you go out and bid all this stuff take measurements for them and they put it in their files. Not they have all this info and it cost them nothing. As you said that's why we do anyways,yes we do ,but it's between the owner of the lot and you ,not a 3 way . Your right on the GC thing too but most times with snow why would you pay more to someone else and not just go with the lower bid.

EX. GC charges 20% of cost so a 1k bid costs 1,200
National they bid 1k and they keep 20% so you get 800.00 
in most cases they don't add to the bid.


----------



## ff610 (Jan 9, 2009)

grandview;1059393 said:


> What 4024 is saying I think is .you go out and bid all this stuff take measurements for them and they put it in their files. Not they have all this info and it cost them nothing. As you said that's why we do anyways,yes we do ,but it's between the owner of the lot and you ,not a 3 way . Your right on the GC thing too but most times with snow why would you pay more to someone else and not just go with the lower bid.
> 
> EX. GC charges 20% of cost so a 1k bid costs 1,200
> National they bid 1k and they keep 20% so you get 800.00
> in most cases they don't add to the bid.


Yeah I see what your saying. What I can tell you is all the work I've bid for Rich, they never once asked for any measurements, maps, or anything. I don't even think I would provide them if asked unless a contract was signed, but it's irrelevant to me. I can sit in my office on my GIS mapping system, and in a matter 5-10 minutes take measurements and have all the data needed. (Plug for Go I Snow) Some of the accounts I went and looked at because I wasn't familiar with them enough, some I didn't need to because I've lived here my whole life. Secondly, taking my bid and adding their cut is acceptable to me if the store is willing to pay more, but I also don't agree with us taking the hit to cover the cost of the National. This is the huge reason I have even bid through AGMG. I would not waste my time with the others we all know because I won't work for peanuts! Lastly, many of my customers have said I wasn't the cheapest, but they also looked into my history, reputation, and reputation. Most of us on here fall into this category because we obviously run a professional operation, not just a fly by night dude with a plow on his truck! It's been tough to sit back and read some of these related topics because I can imagine myself in their shoes. But I also can say that there are some places I haven't had the opportunity to bid on until now so what do ya do? The key is not to keep all your eggs in one basket! Damned if we do and damned if we don't! Time for a beer!

"Your right on the GC thing too but most times with snow why would you pay more to someone else and not just go with the lower bid."
*If you operate multiple to hundreds of stores is one reason why. Eventually they'll understand that low bid increases claims... Hopefully right! LOL*


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

ff610;1059402 said:


> Yeah I see what your saying. What I can tell you is all the work I've bid for Rich, they never once asked for any measurements, maps, or anything. I don't even think I would provide them if asked unless a contract was signed, but it's irrelevant to me. I can sit in my office on my GIS mapping system, and in a matter 5-10 minutes take measurements and have all the data needed. (Plug for Go I Snow) Some of the accounts I went and looked at because I wasn't familiar with them enough, some I didn't need to because I've lived here my whole life. Secondly, taking my bid and adding their cut is acceptable to me if the store is willing to pay more, but I also don't agree with us taking the hit to cover the cost of the National. This is the huge reason I have even bid through AGMG. I would not waste my time with the others we all know because I won't work for peanuts! Lastly, many of my customers have said I wasn't the cheapest, but they also looked into my history, reputation, and reputation. Most of us on here fall into this category because we obviously run a professional operation, not just a fly by night dude with a plow on his truck! It's been tough to sit back and read some of these related topics because I can imagine myself in their shoes. But I also can say that there are some places I haven't had the opportunity to bid on until now so what do ya do? The key is not to keep all your eggs in one basket! Damned if we do and damned if we don't! Time for a beer!
> 
> "Your right on the GC thing too but most times with snow why would you pay more to someone else and not just go with the lower bid."
> *If you operate multiple to hundreds of stores is one reason why. Eventually they'll understand that low bid increases claims... Hopefully right! LOL*


Did you ever get any work from those bids for AGMG.????...You are right about doing the leg work...For myself..Not for someone sitting in an office in Erie telling Lowes they will plow their lot for $20 grand for the season.......


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

grandview;1059393 said:


> What 4024 is saying I think is .you go out and bid all this stuff take measurements for them and they put it in their files. Not they have all this info and it cost them nothing. As you said that's why we do anyways,yes we do ,but it's between the owner of the lot and you ,not a 3 way . Your right on the GC thing too but most times with snow why would you pay more to someone else and not just go with the lower bid.
> 
> EX. GC charges 20% of cost so a 1k bid costs 1,200
> National they bid 1k and they keep 20% so you get 800.00
> in most cases they don't add to the bid.


You are right Grandview...But im the Naive fool here for not wanting to do someone elses leg work....I guess i will crawl into a ball and cry....


----------



## ff610 (Jan 9, 2009)

Matson Snow;1059420 said:


> Did you ever get any work from those bids for AGMG.????...You are right about doing the leg work...For myself..Not for someone sitting in an office in Erie telling Lowes they will plow their lot for $20 grand for the season.......


Not to date. I only started bidding recently and those accounts have not been awarded. Understand, it's no skin off my back if I don't. I am at least doing one thing for the industry. Making them know that cheapest doesn't always fly, and maybe some markets Nationals won't do well. If I do get some, then I got it under my pricing that I'm comfortable with. Also, if you haven't seen any of Rich's other posts, and from my conversations with him I understand he doesn't just sit at his desk and offer to plow Lowes for 20k. We both know there is other legwork involved other than taking measurements and submitting a bid. I'm assuming you have a successful business and you wouldn't be where you are today if that was the case. I assume you have been awarded contracts both by your reputation, and your selling ability. I understand this makes it frustrating knowing that neither play a part directly in you getting a national bid with the customer, but I think AGMG is attempting to change the norm we have been dealing with. With that said, one has to decide which direction they wanna take. I completely respect your opinion and concerns with it all. Lets just hope someday it turns around. I can tell you I would have spend 10x more legwork trying to get the opportunity to bid on the amount of work I did in a few short days with AGMG. Sure, if I never get awarded any work, then I'll have to reevaluate the situation and might stop bidding too. Time will tell.


----------



## ff610 (Jan 9, 2009)

Matson Snow;1059421 said:


> You are right Grandview...But I'm the Naive fool here for not wanting to do someone Else's leg work....I guess i will crawl into a ball and cry....


Also, Matson please don't take my comments personal. I just know that sometimes it's nice to look from another's perspective. We all may see the big picture in different screens! I have certainly learned alot from others's opinions also. That's the benefit of this site right!


----------



## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Let's change this up a little. 

Rich ,why did you go the management way? Why not do what I've read in Snow mag. with these guys and their 200-500 subs.


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

ff610;1059430 said:


> Also, Matson please don't take my comments personal. I just know that sometimes it's nice to look from another's perspective. We all may see the big picture in different screens! I have certainly learned alot from others's opinions also. That's the benefit of this site right!


Not personal at all Ryan....I see your view....Thats why we are here to see and express opinions....:salute:


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Wow, I am beginning to see a trend here.... yes some Nationals keep a crap load of your money, AGMG is not one of them. By getting your bid first we ensure that you get paid your price. So in relation to the 1K bid from the contractor we would pay the contractor 1K not 800,00 Maybe some day you will all get a chance to experience the AGMG Difference. In the mean time I and you have read what our current contractors have said and I havent seen anything bad have you? 

I do travel around the country, I am traveling at least 18 days per month so I do get around, meet with contractors, review sites. So maybe that is another difference between us and everyone else.

As for Detroit, we already have business in Waterford, Allen Park, and Fenton. Our contractor is very happy and being paid his price.


----------



## KBTConst (Oct 25, 2009)

I would much rather bid on a job for Rich and not get it than have someone call and say they have the contract and is only willing to pay half of what its worth.Its no different than every day life if your self employed I have bid tons of jobs this summer and have lost alot but its my price I bid not someone telling me how much I will do it for. Glad to see Rich is still around after starting this thread that should tell all of us that he is letting us know he is not like the other companys. Rich if you ever have any work in northern Michigan give me a call I would be glad to give you a bid.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Grandview, your question is actually the one I have been waiting for. We started a management company for two main reasons. 1st we decided that we could either work for one or become one we chose to become one. 2nd our clients in Erie asked us to take care of thier properties in Cleveland and Buffalo 12 years ago. then it was Rochester, then Columbus and so on and so on. Today we operate in 27 states all through referral and current clients. We are doing it different. although some may not agree with our methods, we still think our way is better than what else is out there. Based on some of the posts on this thread, alot of contractors agree with us and yes some of you dont like us just because we are National. I dont take it personal, as a matter of fact I have actually enjoyed hearing from all of you. 

On a fun note, our annual picnic is Saturday August 21st at 1600 Maple Ave,. Lake City Pa. all who read this are invited. Just let me know your coming we have it catered and will need to let them know.


----------



## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

Rich, welcome to plowsite,lol. I've worked for Rich before and coming from a guy (me) who wouldn't care if I hurt Riches feelings,(meaning I dont sugar coat things too often,lol) I will say while the first check took some time to get here but IT WAS there when he said it would be there and every 2 weeks like clockwork! I had the chance to bid a bunch of work last season but couldn't get another truck in time. Although I am disappointed Rich, I was hoping to get some mowing from you but maybe we can still do something this year....you have my number. We added a loader this year and have the skid steer if your interested.


----------



## ColumbiaLand (Sep 1, 2008)




----------



## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

the only reason I deal with nationals is because I don't have to deal with the customer and run around. It defeats the purpose to go with a national when I have to do the leg work... I can do local leg work here and do great. I provide a service second to none and have a great reputation in the columbus market. The only ones who are going to take the run around are the ones that are just trying to fill spots which I'll take a peek at what you have and shoot you a bid but odds are if your looking for pricing especially in my area don't expect to get much. I have 2 trucks that I keep aside just for when we get that big storm and I have to clean someone elses mess up and in most cases I'm awarded the contract for that season as well as the following. I just dont think it is "fair" at all to take bids when you don't have the contract...


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Well, I guess there really is proof to the phrase " you can't please everyone". 

seems like some of you appreciate the fact that we want your numbers, but then complain when you bid and we dont win anything.

others want me to price it because they dont want to do the leg work, but then will complain that my pricing is too low.

So how do you think we should resolve this. keep bidding high numbers that dont work, or bid low win work then struggle trying to find the right contractors for that price. HMMMMMMM seems like a catch 22


----------



## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

You know what the market is Rich.. You said you're a contractor yourself. You know what is high and what is low. Yes in different areas there are different markets but they don't vary by much. Like I said I use nationals as fillers. I would be broke if I relied on them. For instance if I got a DG around the corner from one of my warehouses and I hit it then its profitable. If I have to drive across town JUST for that DG then its not. I'll continue to play with the nationals but when they don't pay or try to screw me then I'm going to talk. If the work cant be done for a price I wouldn't do it or even worry about it. move on.. one day it will come back around when no none can afford to do it at another number


----------



## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1059908 said:


> Well, I guess there really is proof to the phrase " you can't please everyone".
> 
> seems like some of you appreciate the fact that we want your numbers, but then complain when you bid and we dont win anything.
> 
> ...


The only catch 22 Rich is you and all the other nationals have to bid what the lots are WORTH not what the client WANTS to pay... If you, as nationals, would work with realistic numbers, we wouldn't be having these types of discussions over and over again. 
I don't think we're bidding "high" numbers but most of us would call them "realistic" numbers for the amount of liability one of these big box stores carries.

Rich, When hiring a sub you get their bid.... but what else do you do to qualify these quality contractors that are giving you these unrealistic bids? Do you just take their word? do you check any references? verify the correct equipment to have onsite?


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Rich Arlington;1059293 said:


> For the rest, yes we do have to wait for the client to pay so we can pay you... I am sure in your business you must receive money before you can pay out money.


Do you really have this same agreement with your mortgage holder? Phone company? Fuel supplier? Salt supplier? Insurance carrier? Your employees?

Or is it only your service providers that must abide by this rule?

On another note, why is it that you don't participate in reporting to GIE's top 100 snow contractors?


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1059908 said:


> Well, I guess there really is proof to the phrase " you can't please everyone".
> 
> seems like some of you appreciate the fact that we want your numbers, but then complain when you bid and we dont win anything.
> 
> ...


i am going with Rich on this one, you guys can't have it both ways, either accept the amount he bids for when he phones you and do it for his price (the USM way) or have him call you with places, work out the prices, and hope/pray that Rich is the type of guy that respects a fair price for a property (and it seems like he is). At least Rich's way you get a say in what is a "fair" price and Rich does know the market, so if he gets a quote that is 50-60% lower then what he figures it should be, i am sure he investigates that quote for issues (not the right equipment, not enough employees, a hack, etc). I well tell you guys all one thing, Rich's way, it is your local contractors fault if a place gets low balled, not Rich's.


----------



## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Rich Arlington;1059908 said:


> others want me to price it because they dont want to do the leg work, but then will complain that my pricing is too low.


The same children that make icy spots in the parking lot, throwing their hissy-fit when they dont get the bid that they "worked SO hard on; did so much leg work."

Keep it up, Rich. Those who never want to sub for a large company can keep thier operation to themselves. The rest of us will keep an open mind and a growth/sustainment attitude. I think AGMG is on the right track.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

See what I mean different strokes for different folks... AGMG will continue on the path that has made us successful. 

The reasons we dont report in the top 50 or 200 is because it does not matter. Do you run around and tell everyone what your revenue is?

I believe that long term AGMG will come out on top if companies are going to keep using Nationals. if the dont then all of us local contractors will win... Either way I will be happy that I was part of the solution not part of the problem


----------



## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks for answering my questions Rich..........


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Rich Arlington;1059961 said:


> The reasons we dont report in the top 50 or 200 is because it does not matter.


Lots of different reasons to do this, or not to do this. I was just wondering what your reasoning was...that was all.

It certainly isn't a requirement for anyone to do so.


----------



## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

Rich, how are you guys going about the bidding process. Are you guys researching each new market for proven contractors, reliable contractors, etc? And if so, are you pooling the quotes together, going with the lowest guy? I guess I ask because I've never received feedback from you or Mike whether we're high, low, etc. That's one thing that pissed me off about USM is that you spend all of this time and I never find out where I fell, makes it seem like a waste. As a contactor, if I was bidding directly, at least I would find out where I was high and where I was competitive, if you guys could do the same, that'd make me a little happier.


----------



## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

well Rich.. when AGMG is ready for service in the Columbus market and someone doesn't show I'll be around at 3am ask servurite and level 1 I bail them out every year and take on the sloppys seconds for a premium


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

redman6565;1060046 said:


> Rich, how are you guys going about the bidding process. Are you guys researching each new market for proven contractors, reliable contractors, etc? And if so, are you pooling the quotes together, going with the lowest guy? I guess I ask because I've never received feedback from you or Mike whether we're high, low, etc. That's one thing that pissed me off about USM is that you spend all of this time and I never find out where I fell, makes it seem like a waste. As a contactor, if I was bidding directly, at least I would find out where I was high and where I was competitive, if you guys could do the same, that'd make me a little happier.


I hear ya there. I would really like to hear back on my bid I put in as well. Its always nice to find out where we fell.


----------



## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

merrimacmill;1060184 said:


> I hear ya there. I would really like to hear back on my bid I put in as well. Its always nice to find out where we fell.


I third the motion. Would be nice to get feedback.

Unfortunately, not all customers are willing to do so, have the time, or give a schitt that we would like to have so-and-so. Some phone calls are in order, I feel.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

I hear your pain... this is a process that we are struggling to rectify. I would be more than willing to tell people how their pricing fell but you would have to call me or email me directly at this point. we thought about putting it in our newletter but that would allow the competition to know what we are bidding on. Mike Folmar is working on an average of 15 RFPs at any given time, so I dont fault him for not getting back to you guys. It is with all accountablility my fault, and I publically appologize for not having a process that works in place. We are striving to get better at this but in the mean time feel free to call me 814-490-4700 or email at [email protected] I will let you know.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Redman to answer your question, no we do not always use the lowest number. we do research contractors in a number of ways. we look up your website, we ask around, we talk to some of you at gathering functions, we already know who you are. If none of these apply then before we award work one of management staff will come out and meet you personally.


----------



## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

Rich Arlington;1060367 said:


> Redman to answer your question, no we do not always use the lowest number. we do research contractors in a number of ways. we look up your website, we ask around, we talk to some of you at gathering functions, we already know who you are. If none of these apply then before we award work one of management staff will come out and meet you personally.


that's good to hear, i like guys that do their homework. I think you have a good thing going. Mike's been great to work with so far, even though we haven't been awarded anything that i've bid on.

just keep in mind, like the guys noted above to, open communication is great, it shows you're apporachable and willing to talk, and that alone makes you guys better work with that USM and others. who knows, if you're negotiating with the customer, there's no reason why you can't have open negotiations with the contractor and maybe we can help.


----------



## gd8boltman (Dec 18, 2002)

*Rich, do you have any*

oppurtunities in South East Wisconsin?

Thanks,


----------



## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

all of these bids and I don't hear anything about anyone doing any work... hmmm


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Scottscape;1061322 said:


> all of these bids and I don't hear anything about anyone doing any work... hmmm


I talked to Rich the other day on the phone and he awarded us a good contract at exactly the price I bid it at. And he didn't tell me to go lower on my price, he didn't tell me he was going to take money back at the end of the season if we don't meet average snow fall amounts, he didn't tell me it would take over 30 days to get paid, he said it would generally take less. And I think the most impressive thing he said was something like "when we started out 12 years ago, we made a rule that no matter what, when our check comes in the contractors check goes out the same day."

I've become very excited to work for AGMG this year. Rich, I look forward to working with you and the rest of the folks at AGMG this season, I've heard a lot of great things.


----------



## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

merrimacmill;1061351 said:


> I talked to Rich the other day on the phone and he awarded us a good contract at exactly the price I bid it at. And he didn't tell me to go lower on my price, he didn't tell me he was going to take money back at the end of the season if we don't meet average snow fall amounts, he didn't tell me it would take over 30 days to get paid, he said it would generally take less. And I think the most impressive thing he said was something like "when we started out 12 years ago, we made a rule that no matter what, when our check comes in the contractors check goes out the same day."
> 
> I've become very excited to work for AGMG this year. Rich, I look forward to working with you and the rest of the folks at AGMG this season, I've heard a lot of great things.


Good to hear. Keep us updated.


----------



## Weeded! (Nov 13, 2009)

Neige;1057830 said:


> Had some time on my hands and did some math. Lowes 5 acres with 45 plowable & 65 salting events all for the price of 20 grand. -----
> 43,560 sq.ft. in an acre X 5 = 217,800.00 sq.ft. comes out to .091 cents a sq.ft.------------
> Salt 600 lbs per acre x 5 = 3000 lbs or 1.5 tons of salt X 65 events = 97.5 tons used.-----
> 97.5 tons of salt @ $55.00 a ton = $5,362.50 cost of salt. You get $25.00 per ton to apply this salt, so $37.50 per application X 65 = $2,437.50 for your salting.
> ...


I would like to see your calculations as to where you are making money at $35 per Working Hour (drive time? Prep time? Clean up time after storm?). If you have 10 tons salt delivered how much can you really put down (what's your loss?) What about left over chemical. What about, as JohnnyRoyale mentioned, all your overhead? You could go on and eat away at that $35 very quickly. Pretty soon you're better driving for your friend and walking with $15 per hour in your pocket.

The issue with low prices is that, I believe, guys don't factor in all their time and expenses. Their work truck is also their personal truck, so it "doesn't cost" them anything. They paid for their plow in cash, so it "doesn't cost" them anything. There was a VERY long thread on this topic, and I don't want to rehash that. But there WILL always be a low baller that will do the work - many times do it well- thinking he is making money when he is not.


----------



## Weeded! (Nov 13, 2009)

*By the way...*

I do have a few sites with Cherry Logistics -a national provider. This will be my third year with them. They are on the ball- their prices are decent, they pay on time and communicate well. I don't know anything about AGMG.


----------



## Weeded! (Nov 13, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1060365 said:


> I hear your pain... this is a process that we are struggling to rectify. I would be more than willing to tell people how their pricing fell but you would have to call me or email me directly at this point. we thought about putting it in our newletter but that would allow the competition to know what we are bidding on. Mike Folmar is working on an average of 15 RFPs at any given time, so I dont fault him for not getting back to you guys. It is with all accountablility my fault, and I publically appologize for not having a process that works in place. We are striving to get better at this but in the mean time feel free to call me 814-490-4700 or email at [email protected] I will let you know.


Rich - I do not believe you should reveal your "winning bids." While the government has to do this to remain transparent, you do not. All that would happen is everyone would be $5 below that price point next year instead of giving your THEIR price.

I would understand if you had a contractor that you have had a relationship with, they've done good work for you and you would like to use them but they are higher than you need them to be in order to go with them, THEN calling them up and saying "Hey David, we need you to come down $10 per push.. what say we work together on that?"

Opening up your bids to the public would concern me.

I would like to see national vendors send three things with their RFPs: 
1. Square footage approximates (you can get them online).
2. A google earth map with all the sights loaded.
3. Bullet points of what the contracting company is looking for (the highlights).

Reach out to me if you like, or I may call this week.

Thanks for your efforts on the thread.


----------



## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Weeded!;1061708 said:


> I would like to see national vendors send three things with their RFPs:
> 1. Square footage approximates (you can get them online).
> 2. A google earth map with all the sights loaded.
> 3. Bullet points of what the contracting company is looking for (the highlights).


#3 is provided for in the specifications accompanying any bid, no?

Addresses are provided, beyond that I believe it is up to the contractor to do their due diligence. As soon as you send square footages, then no one bothers to go out and account for that row of curbs or the cart corrals and *****es about it.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

OK Then.... it is simple in Erie to make money you must have large volume... we push over 600 parking lots, we make 1-$4.00 per hour of each sub and if you do the math 200 subs x 2.50 average = 500.00 per hour... average plower gets 400 hours = 200,000.00 now add onto that average markup on salt, removal work because it always happens and you can find yourself with a pretty nestegg every spring.


----------



## Weeded! (Nov 13, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1062020 said:


> OK Then.... it is simple in Erie to make money you must have large volume... we push over 600 parking lots, we make 1-$4.00 per hour of each sub and if you do the math 200 subs x 2.50 average = 500.00 per hour... average plower gets 400 hours = 200,000.00 now add onto that average markup on salt, removal work because it always happens and you can find yourself with a pretty nestegg every spring.


Rich, 
You explained how you make your money. I was wondering how the guy pushing snow and spreading salt was making his at $35 per pushing hour.

As far as square footages provided, even without seeing a parking lot I know there will be obstacles of different types.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

There really is no way for them to make money as a business... most people here that plow just do it for extra money so they do not run it as a business... I did not say 35.00 was good, we used to get 55 to 65.00 10 years ago, but another person who will unmentioned attempted to put all plowing companies out of business in Erie so he could dominate... well some of us figured out how to stick around and he is gone and we are still here... .that being said, now everyone expects that to be the benchmark price and we have not been able to push it up across the board. yes we do have some much higher, but most of the market is still at that price.


----------



## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

merrimacmill;1061351 said:


> I talked to Rich the other day on the phone and he awarded us a good contract at exactly the price I bid it at. And he didn't tell me to go lower on my price, he didn't tell me he was going to take money back at the end of the season if we don't meet average snow fall amounts, he didn't tell me it would take over 30 days to get paid, he said it would generally take less. And I think the most impressive thing he said was something like "when we started out 12 years ago, we made a rule that no matter what, when our check comes in the contractors check goes out the same day."
> 
> I've become very excited to work for AGMG this year. Rich, I look forward to working with you and the rest of the folks at AGMG this season, I've heard a lot of great things.


hope everything goes well for you. let us know how things work out


----------



## Weeded! (Nov 13, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1062024 said:


> There really is no way for them to make money as a business... most people here that plow just do it for extra money so they do not run it as a business... I did not say 35.00 was good, we used to get 55 to 65.00 10 years ago, but another person who will unmentioned attempted to put all plowing companies out of business in Erie so he could dominate... well some of us figured out how to stick around and he is gone and we are still here... .that being said, now everyone expects that to be the benchmark price and we have not been able to push it up across the board. yes we do have some much higher, but most of the market is still at that price.


Great answer. Thanks.


----------



## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

Rich Arlington;1062024 said:


> There really is no way for them to make money as a business... most people here that plow just do it for extra money so they do not run it as a business... I did not say 35.00 was good, we used to get 55 to 65.00 10 years ago, but another person who will unmentioned attempted to put all plowing companies out of business in Erie so he could dominate... well some of us figured out how to stick around and he is gone and we are still here... .that being said, now everyone expects that to be the benchmark price and we have not been able to push it up across the board. yes we do have some much higher, but most of the market is still at that price.


that's a good point. same can be said for our area. in fact some of us are still fighting that battle


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

redman6565;1062105 said:


> that's a good point. same can be said for our area. in fact some of us are still fighting that battle


I see a little bit of that happening around here, but not as severe as the stories I hear from you guys on here. Around here, everyone seems to be figuring at a rate over $100 an hour for a truck and plow. I get a lot of the bids I put in, but I also am told I am way to high on a lot. But thats ok, as long as I'm still getting enough work I'm fine. I know what I need to make.

For example, I just put in a bid for a hotel and the plowing was like $8,500 for the season with salt. The manager told me no way, maybe if it was around $4,000 we could talk, otherwise forget it. I do small pizza huts for WELL over $4,000 and they are a quarter the size of this lot was. The people he has had doing it have done a pretty bad job, only use sand, the lot has snow pack on it for several days after a storm, and they just leave it pretty messy. I gave him a price for a zero tolerance, black pavement parking lot using salt. I really think he was comparing apples to oranges even though I attempted to educate him on it.

Just another example of how different people have different ideas of what snow should cost based on previous experiences with other contractors.


----------



## wizardsr (Aug 8, 2006)

merrimacmill;1062151 said:


> I see a little bit of that happening around here, but not as severe as the stories I hear from you guys on here. Around here, everyone seems to be figuring at a rate over $100 an hour for a truck and plow. I get a lot of the bids I put in, but I also am told I am way to high on a lot. But thats ok, as long as I'm still getting enough work I'm fine. I know what I need to make.
> 
> For example, I just put in a bid for a hotel and the plowing was like $8,500 for the season with salt. The manager told me no way, maybe if it was around $4,000 we could talk, otherwise forget it. I do small pizza huts for WELL over $4,000 and they are a quarter the size of this lot was. The people he has had doing it have done a pretty bad job, only use sand, the lot has snow pack on it for several days after a storm, and they just leave it pretty messy. I gave him a price for a zero tolerance, black pavement parking lot using salt. I really think he was comparing apples to oranges even though I attempted to educate him on it.
> 
> Just another example of how different people have different ideas of what snow should cost based on previous experiences with other contractors.


That happens in every market, regardless. Kinda preaching to the choir there.

What Rich stated regarding guys willing to work for $35/hour is exactly what's wrong with this industry. It's just too easy to be "extra money" for too many guys, most of which already have full time income, don't take into consideration depreciation, don't have liability insurance, w/c, uic, etc. so their "playing in the snow money" all goes right into the "Friday night fund". I pay my guys pretty well, I don't expect anyone to get out of bed at 1am for less than $23/hour. Add on unemployment, workers comp, fed, fica, ss, depreciate the equipment, etc. etc. I can't afford to do anything for less than $55/hour, and that's if nothing breaks. When I'm up against these $35/hour "beer money" wonders, it makes me want to sell everything and go back to being a one man show... It's tough to do everything legit and make any money at it when the customers don't care either way and the low-buck competition thinks they've outsmarted you...


----------



## Camden (Mar 10, 2007)

There are virtually no barriers to enter our industry. For the most part it's non-regulated and that's why anyone with a truck and plow can solicit for work.

I'd hate to be an advocate for more gov't regulation but it would be nice to be on a level playing field with everyone else.


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Camden;1062199 said:


> There are virtually no barriers to enter our industry. For the most part it's non-regulated and that's why anyone with a truck and plow can solicit for work.
> 
> I'd hate to be an advocate for more gov't regulation but it would be nice to be on a level playing field with everyone else.


I agree about the no barriers thing. Same goes with landscaping, but landscaping requires even less money in equipment and a lot less stress so I find its even harder to be in that because of them.

I'm not sure about the gov't regulation thing though, they usually screw most things up even worse.


----------



## wizardsr (Aug 8, 2006)

merrimacmill;1062203 said:


> I agree about the no barriers thing. Same goes with landscaping, but landscaping requires even less money in equipment and a lot less stress so I find its even harder to be in that because of them.
> 
> I'm not sure about the gov't regulation thing though, they usually screw most things up even worse.


Agreed. Thank goodness my bigger accounts have outfits like compliance depot looking over the contractor's shoulder to make sure they're properly insured etc. I can't imagine what some of the gravy work would be going for if they didn't screen us like they do...


----------



## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

good luck on regulation in the snow industry. it'd take you forming a group. screening all members of the group so that you only had companies that were respectable. you will need a checks and balance for each of your members to ensure they are all on the up and up. you need to find at least one company to service in every market (city/town) or else customers will be forced to hire outside of your group (which defeats the purpose). and lastly, and the hardest, is you have to talk corporate america into buying into the greater good and by only hiring members of your group, somehow they are not only bettering their image in our industry but bettering communities as well.

is that close to what you are looking for?


----------



## AngryDogsnwplwg (Sep 11, 2006)

Rich,

I am wondering what stores you guys oversee in the boston area? We are based out of boston and already service a few big box stores in the area and are always looking to add.I didnt know if you had anything out there out for bid.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

we have some sites around Nashua NH and Milbury Ma.. that is as close to Boston as we get


----------



## C&H Plowing (Aug 10, 2010)

still waiting to see what agm comes up with in the cleveland area. what do you think Rich


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

I would certainly entertain opportunities in the 5-7 counties surrounding the Detroit area.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

We have business in both Cleveland and Detroit areas....

are you signed up as a contractor

email [email protected] to see what opportunities are available


----------



## redman6565 (Jul 14, 2008)

wizardsr;1062168 said:


> That happens in every market, regardless. Kinda preaching to the choir there.
> 
> What Rich stated regarding guys willing to work for $35/hour is exactly what's wrong with this industry. It's just too easy to be "extra money" for too many guys, most of which already have full time income, don't take into consideration depreciation, don't have liability insurance, w/c, uic, etc. so their "playing in the snow money" all goes right into the "Friday night fund". I pay my guys pretty well, I don't expect anyone to get out of bed at 1am for less than $23/hour. Add on unemployment, workers comp, fed, fica, ss, depreciate the equipment, etc. etc. I can't afford to do anything for less than $55/hour, and that's if nothing breaks. When I'm up against these $35/hour "beer money" wonders, it makes me want to sell everything and go back to being a one man show... It's tough to do everything legit and make any money at it when the customers don't care either way and the low-buck competition thinks they've outsmarted you...


you have to get skinny. welcome to cut-throat america. you think the plow industry is bad, come take a look into the commercial site excavation industry in my area and you'll be wishing you had a desk job at a major corporation.


----------



## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

I think it funny people think that if your not charging $100 a hour then your giving your work away.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

It is all about knowing your numbers. if you know what it exactly cost you per hour then you can add a profit margin and that is what you bid.


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Rich Arlington;1077863 said:


> It is all about knowing your numbers. if you know what it exactly cost you per hour then you can add a profit margin and that is what you bid.


That's exactly what they taught at last weeks Build a Bid in Ottawa.


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Superior L & L;1077855 said:


> I think it funny people think that if your not charging $100 a hour then your giving your work away.


What should a Truck make an hour?????...I hear Trucks in Erie,PA get $35 an hour...Could you run your trucks on that.....I know.....Know your numbers and go to build a bid........


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Rich Arlington;1077863 said:


> It is all about knowing your numbers. if you know what it exactly cost you per hour then you can add a profit margin and that is what you bid.


Exactly, and I've found that most guys don't know their numbers. Thats why guys come on here saying "what do I charge, does $200 a push sound good?". Its crazy, I mean sometimes its nice if we all can compare hourly rates for different regions to see how the local economy effects our rates (which seems to be very dramatic region to region), but its a whole different thing coming on here asking "what to charge".

This is in part why I made the thread on a equipment costing spreadsheet. http://www.plowsite.com/showpost.php?p=1065675&postcount=9

I have taken the time to send this spreadsheet to many, many people on this site, I was very surprised. But I don't mind taking the time because I think it will help a lot of people realize the are loosing money on their bids and start bidding right, in turn helping the industry. I use a lot of things like this to help me know my numbers down to the cent. Then I use my own production rates I've figured out over the years for each type of equipment and efficiency factors for various difficulty levels of parking lots. The outcome is what I consider a very solid bid. I've never once determined a finial bid based on what I thought "I could get out of the customer" or anything like that. I don't care how much lower or higher I come in than someone else or how much more room I have, my numbers are what they are and I know them very well.

Another thing is that I have a lot of snow only equipment (about to buy more too) and I really need to know my costs in this situation because I need to budget well and carry the cost of that equipment through the entire year. I run it as a separate division almost, with plans of eventually dropping the landscaping and only doing snow. When I first thought of doing this 3 years ago, the problem I saw was having to high of an overhead to run a company that only worked about 150-200 hours a year per piece of equipment. I thought my hourly rates would need to be $200+ to support any equipment (which obviously wouldn't work out), so I've really had to come up with some different ideas to keep my rates competitive, but still be able to buy and support all new equipment.


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Matson Snow;1077927 said:


> What should a Truck make an hour?????...I hear Trucks in Erie,PA get $35 an hour...Could you run your trucks on that.....I know.....Know your numbers and go to build a bid........


I wouldn't even be able to make pay roll for $35 an hour, not even mentioning paying for everything else that costs money.


----------



## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

Matson Snow;1077927 said:


> What should a Truck make an hour?????...I hear Trucks in Erie,PA get $35 an hour...Could you run your trucks on that.....I know.....Know your numbers and go to build a bid........


NOT ME!!! payup


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

cubanb343;1077940 said:


> NOT ME!!! payup





merrimacmill;1077932 said:


> I wouldn't even be able to make pay roll for $35 an hour, not even mentions paying for everything else that costs money.


I agree with both you guys...I was just reading Rich said trucks in Erie get around $35 and Superior saying or implying that $100 is too much per-hour..I was just curious...I know every market is not the same..


----------



## cubanb343 (Dec 13, 2007)

It does suck that guys around here plow for that cheap- and it doesn't look like prices are going to climb very much very fast in the near future. I have a different job the rest of the year, but plowing isn't just for beer money. I choose to be profitable during the winter season instead of sitting on my a$$. I have good equipment, and am pretty efficient. I know what it costs me to run my truck, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna "plow for fun"


----------



## KBTConst (Oct 25, 2009)

:


Superior L & L;1077855 said:


> I think it funny people think that if your not charging $100 a hour then your giving your work away.


I just bid a job @ $300.00 per push figured it would take me 2.5 to 3 hrs max. The next bid was $600.00 they all think I don't know what I'm doing but I figure $100.00 per hr is doing good for a pick up or back hoe I cant get that in the summer. I think its good to make money and not work for penny's but I could not sleep at night knowing that I'm gouging people like that. This is my 30th yr plowing I sure hope I know what my over head is and how to bid by now! :laughing:


----------



## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

merrimacmill;1077929 said:


> Exactly, and I've found that most guys don't know their numbers. Thats why guys come on here saying "what do I charge, does $200 a push sound good?". Its crazy, I mean sometimes its nice if we all can compare hourly rates for different regions to see how the local economy effects our rates (which seems to be very dramatic region to region), but its a whole different thing coming on here asking "what to charge".
> 
> This is in part why I made the thread on a equipment costing spreadsheet. http://www.plowsite.com/showpost.php?p=1065675&postcount=9
> 
> ...


:salute: Thanks Collin, excellent post, I am sorry to say but most people don't really know their costs. We are still working on ours, it takes good notes, properly filled out work sheets, which will give accurate info. All this info needs to be imputed into proper categories, and after 5 years you start getting good intel. Its lots of hard, dedicated work to do all this. The payoff is priceless.


----------



## wmik55 (Oct 27, 2009)

there will always be someone cheaper,hungrier or ignorant enough to take a job for too little pay. it is supply and demand. as contractors we are more a commodity than ever. we are seen by many the same as gasoline. its all the same stuff,only price matters. but as contractors we have tried to set our businesses apart from our competition. we have worked on this premise for years,quality sells .we also thought thats what people were looking for,but now we know thats not as true as it once was. sorry but that is reality. sometimes i feel as if all the effort that we put into quality and going that extra mile for our clients was wasted. loyalty has been relaced by the almighty dollar and national contracts. i guess i just dont like being seen as a commodity. i have worked hard to know my costs so i can compete and still make money. this is one reason i dont have the big box stores i did 2 years ago. i dont want to gouge anybody,i just want a fair price. also i still want to do quality work,for a decent price. ONE thing i did gain by working for some nationals, how to do paper work. we were forced to do paper work correrctly and on time. this has helped us better organize all of our recordkeeping and job costing procedures.


----------



## Superior L & L (Oct 6, 2006)

WMIK, record keepings is a must with the nationals for sure. Lots of people complain about the big nationals on here and there slow pay, when I believe most just don't do all the needed paper work and reporting. I've never had a dragged out payment with a national and I believe it's because we always do our paper work right and on time.


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Superior L & L;1086527 said:


> WMIK, record keepings is a must with the nationals for sure. Lots of people complain about the big nationals on here and there slow pay, when I believe most just don't do all the needed paper work and reporting. I've never had a dragged out payment with a national and I believe it's because we always do our paper work right and on time.


I've found exactly the same thing. I think there is a lot of people who just jump on the "we hate nationals" bandwagon and I'm really not sure why yet. I haven't found any trouble getting paid, but I do all my record keeping, I send out the required paper work when needed, and I do very good work all season long. I leave no reason not to pay me!


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Superior L & L;1086527 said:


> WMIK, record keepings is a must with the nationals for sure. Lots of people complain about the big nationals on here and there slow pay, when I believe most just don't do all the needed paper work and reporting.
> 
> Having a more than comprehensive paper-trail does not insure you will get paid. And as we all should know, slow pay, and/or no pay is not exclusive to the nationals.
> 
> I've never had a dragged out payment with a national and I believe it's because we always do our paper work right and on time.


Good for you not having to experience the not getting paid aspect.

I can tell you it's very disappointing doing everything that's expected and not getting paid...whether it be performing the service or providing the supplies. :angry::angry:

The forums are a great resource in identifying those who do not fulfill their obligations.


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Superior L & L;1086527 said:


> WMIK, record keepings is a must with the nationals for sure. Lots of people complain about the big nationals on here and there slow pay, when I believe most just don't do all the needed paper work and reporting. I've never had a dragged out payment with a national and I believe it's because we always do our paper work right and on time.


Speaking from the other end....As a sub...I Expect to be paid in a timely manner...Nothing Worse than having a company you have performed a service for Drag out payments for Weeks or even months....Nothing Worse than having to Chase down your Money...:angry:


----------



## USMCMP5811 (Aug 31, 2008)

Rich Arlington;1057506 said:


> Well keep in mind Erie is a 35.00 per truck hour market and we can not get more than 80.00 per ton of salt applied.......
> 
> I also can tell you that alot of the lowes in the country are under 25000 no matter what city that is the target price they wanted and although I only was 16 sites somebody got a bunch of them


$35.00 per truck hour? Are you out of your mind? $35 an hour barely covers my expenses, never mind having to pay the driver. What's the first rule of business? Pay yourself first, then factor in your expenses, the rest is profit. If you can't turn a profit, it's not worth doing it. Sure, $35 an hour is good if that's what you're getting, doing nothing but sitting behind your desk all nice and cozy. My trucks won't roll for anything under $55 an hour. For that matter, if all you're willing to give is $35 an hour, I'll contract my equipment out to the state or on my local town as they will pay my minimum rate and, I don't have to worry about all the extra overhead such as the high insurance premiums, less headaches, and heartburn....

It's National companies and all the lowballers who are killing us hard working folks.


----------



## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

With all due respect sir, your price for an average Lowes should be a minimum of $50,000 annual.
You stated "Both the lowes in my market go for around 20,000.00
we have 45 plowing events and up to 65 saltinging events...as I have stated things are changing.." If you do the math, well you just don't make it. National service providers are just brokers. They are kinda like a drug lord. Every dealer below them takes their cut. When it gets down to the street level dealer, he makes some, sometimes or gets busted. After 25 years in the business I have learned you stay away from anyone who lowers the standard of work and price fixing. Just like in government, " We the people need to take back control. " I would like to sit down and debate with any national company spokes person. Any one who contracts with any national company, just remember, " Don't walk over a dollar to pick up a quarter".


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

*Ok*

I would welcome a discussion with you.. again my phone # is 814-490-4700 please feel free to contact me... FYI Erie recieved 48 plowing events and up to 90 saltings. and yes the two Lowes in Erie go for less than 20,000.00 and I hear this year that they are even less than last year but not by my doing.


----------



## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

I serviced 2 Lowes locations before they went to a national provider. They used to go to bid each year, the store manager collected bids and dicussed with their regional manager, that was a great deal. Even better was the purchase card used for payment, if you got your billing done quickly you could be paid within 24 hours of leaving the propoerty.....Really liked them. These were both in NW NJ, we billed about 47,000 each location, had a salt bin located on both sites so they had even more value...... To bad snow removal has become a comodity more than a service, at least to large retailers with lots of pavement. Landscape maintenance has been going this route for years.......


----------



## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

Would you agree that 20,000 is low for an average Lowes lot. Especially in NY.
Insurance, average $8000.00 per year. Salt, $ 70.00 per ton ( cost w/out install ) . Loader service w/ 14' pusher, $155.00 per hour. 4x4 Backhoe w/ 12' pusher, $105.00 per hour. Skid steer w/ 8' pusher/plow, $65.00 per hour. Pickup w/ 8' plow, $60.00 per hour. Fuel for equipment per hour, $98.00 per . The look on the face of a nationals sub when he realizes what he should be charging, PRICELESS.


----------



## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

Tiflawn;1089117 said:


> The Lowes in your region did not go for 20,000 last year. That is a blatant lie. I have an old employee that went on his own a few years ago in " your region". He plowed two Lowes. The lowest was 29,000. He even admitted that was too low but did it because all of his equipment was at WM next door. If any one believes someone plowed and salted a Lowes for 20,000 I have a plowing business in Mexico for sale. A small retail strip mall goes for more than 20,000 in Western NY. And thats without salt. The best advice would be to do as I do, not as I say.


I think you need to re read this thread, as you obviously are a little mislead/ignorant about Rich, my understanding is that AGMG takes contractors pricing and make their bids based of that (they aren't dictating pricing like USM), meaning if you are going to blame someone for poor prices on these places, blame the guy that bid it out at $20 000 (or $29 000). As far as the $20 000 dollar amount, aren't you going to feel foolish if he comes on here with proof?


----------



## merrimacmill (Apr 18, 2007)

Tiflawn;1088901 said:


> Rich, I would love to call you and discuss things with you but that would be like me calling IRS and asking them for advice. I know the truth, you know the truth, but because of your doing what you do, you protect your interests. I hired my CPA to run true cost of service for " my snow removal operation". You should do the same. With the price schedule you talk about, you should be ashamed of yourself. I know at the end of the day when I spend my money, I earned it.


You need to calm down, maybe you can't do a lowes for 20,000, but I'm sure there are plenty of other people out there that can make it happen. I have never once gone on what "my region" is getting per hour. I always go by what MY numbers are. I know that to gain accounts in these times my prices need to be competitive, but I still need to make money, otherwise there would be no point in working. To accomplish this, I have taken many steps to keep my overhead very low and my pricing competitive, while still pulling a 15% to 20% profit. I'm able to keep the hourly rate for my landscape maintenance crew under $50 a hour. I don't cut corners, and I do excellent work. I'm confident enough to say that I believe that I do some of the highest quality snow work in my area that I've seen. (I'm one of those guys that drives around taking pictures of everyone else's parking lots and compare them to mine during sales time).

And, the above poster is right, Rich doesn't set any pricing whatsoever. So there is no need to get on him about ruining the pricing. All they do is send out RFP's and then contractors send back their pricing according to the specs. I've been awarded two locations with AGMG this year and they never once came back and tried to get me to lower my price like other nationals have. If your going to sit around and complain all day, I would do it about the contractors out there that don't know what they're doing rather than honest business people who have found a new way to make money and create jobs.


----------



## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

went through the thread and still have to say that a service broker is a service broker. I have visited their web site ( very nice web site I might add ). They offer the same service that other nationals offer. You get hired by them and you become their sub. They take their cut, you take yours. In 1990, big box lots pricing was not much different than todays. Insurance, fuel, labor, and equipment costs from the early 90's to present have increased ( expected ). Our industry should also expect income increases. Collin, you say you keep your hourly rate for your maintanace crew under $50.00 ( I hope that is per man hour ). We too are under $50.00 per hour per man. Add equipment, fuel, and other overhead 
( especially in NY state ) and you find that 20,000 is spent quickly. Also could you do the math on the figures he supplied in regards to the amount of push,s and salting,s that were done last year at their Lowe's. Does not add up to a very profitable customer. I will be the first to admit that I yell a lot. I just do not want to see our industry turn in to what it is heading for.


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

Tiflawn;1089226 said:


> went through the thread and still have to say that a service broker is a service broker. I have visited their web site ( very nice web site I might add ). They offer the same service that other nationals offer. You get hired by them and you become their sub. They take their cut, you take yours. In 1990, big box lots pricing was not much different than todays. Insurance, fuel, labor, and equipment costs from the early 90's to present have increased ( expected ). Our industry should also expect income increases. Collin, you say you keep your hourly rate for your maintanace crew under $50.00 ( I hope that is per man hour ). We too are under $50.00 per hour per man. Add equipment, fuel, and other overhead
> ( especially in NY state ) and you find that 20,000 is spent quickly. Also could you do the math on the figures he supplied in regards to the amount of push,s and salting,s that were done last year at their Lowe's. Does not add up to a very profitable customer. I will be the first to admit that I yell a lot. I just do not want to see our industry turn in to what it is *heading for*.


Heading for????....I think we are already There....Im getting really sick of hearing "You have to know your costs"...I does not matter what My costs are...When your paid peanuts it does not matter.....Their is an article in a trade magazine for the Michigan Green industry called the Landsculpter...The article is called "A Race to the Bottom"..It is written by a Very successful snow removal contractor in the Detroit area...I think some people on here should go to the Web site and read it...MGIA.org....


----------



## bltp203 (Nov 5, 2006)

MGIA.org is a gang investigators website..........you want landscape.org


----------



## Matson Snow (Oct 3, 2009)

bltp203;1089410 said:


> MGIA.org is a gang investigators website..........you want landscape.org


You are Right sir.....Landscape.org.......Thank You


----------



## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Rich,

Heres a question. You ask for your bids. You base your bids off of ours. You get the contract. THEN you go back and ask for all the contractors that bid on the locations you won to relook at their bids and give you our best bid. You've already got the contract based on our current bids. Why do you have to be so greedy as to "possibily" have us lower our prices?


----------



## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

merrimacmill;1089184 said:


> I've been awarded two locations with AGMG this year and they never once came back and tried to get me to lower my price like other nationals have.


AGMG did it with me.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Mick,
we do not go back and ask you rebid because we want more... it is due to the customer coming to us asking that questions... when the customer decided to enter into final negotiations with us for a specific region, they asked us for our best and final bid so we went out to the contractors and asked the same question.... you cant tell me that you have never negotiated with a customer and lowered your original bid... this type of negotiations happens all the time.


----------



## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1090136 said:


> Mick,
> we do not go back and ask you rebid because we want more... it is due to the customer coming to us asking that questions... when the customer decided to enter into final negotiations with us for a specific region, they asked us for our best and final bid so we went out to the contractors and asked the same question.... you cant tell me that you have never negotiated with a customer and lowered your original bid... this type of negotiations happens all the time.


I have  
this is a very intresting thread (in a good way)
some very inteligante posts on here! And some not so inteligante posts.
I have a quick question, is AGMG nation wide? (where it snows)


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

We are not in every snow state but we do have business in most of them including Michigan


----------



## Mick76 (Aug 2, 2009)

Rich Arlington;1090136 said:


> Mick,
> we do not go back and ask you rebid because we want more... it is due to the customer coming to us asking that questions... when the customer decided to enter into final negotiations with us for a specific region, they asked us for our best and final bid so we went out to the contractors and asked the same question.... you cant tell me that you have never negotiated with a customer and lowered your original bid... this type of negotiations happens all the time.


Thanks for the clarification.

And to answer your question "you cant tell me that you have never negotiated with a customer and lowered your original bid". Most of the time, the quotes I give are the best I can do, based on the scope of work that the customer wants. If they want me to reduce my price they need to adjust their SOW. In a few instances I've been able to get more for a contract once I explain what it will take to get the lot done as the customer would like and they don't want to change their SOW. As you know we all need to make our margins.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Absolutely I understand Mick.

FYI in the National realm of things customers are always looking for lower and lower pricing. this is the reason reverse auctions are starting to get popular. As a local contractor in Erie I agree on what you say for our own markets... I am just trying to clarify how things play on the national side.


----------



## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

I've been doing work for AGMG for awile and I will say that they have always treated me well. We bid the site and we either get it or we dont. We get paid the fastest I have ever had with AGMG over any other NSP.

I have no problem working for Rich and his staff, for those that cry about getting all the RFPs and never getting any work You need to open your eyes and think about it.

In your local market for bid 20 RFPs and you sign maybe 5 accounts.
As a NSP like AGMG, they have the size and power to bid and get RFPs there for they are going to send out alot more RFPs for the contractor to bid on. 

Also I know for my area when we bid work as the contractor to the client, my pricing we get will mostlikely be slightly higher then if im bidding for a NSP.

The reason being is that as a contractor we are bidding a small amount of sites, where a NSP will be bidding a lagre amount of sites. It no diffence the buying salt the guy buying 100ton of salt a season is paying more then the guy who buys 800ton a season.


----------



## Scottscape (Nov 27, 2005)

well clap if snow pushers didn't go for sticker at auctions then we might be able to bid a little bit lower! :laughing:


----------



## Clapper&Company (Jan 4, 2005)

Scott, you for sure right on that! it was nice to meet you lol


----------



## csi.northcoast (Aug 7, 2010)

Rich,
oes your company notify everyone if a bid was awarded even though the contractor was not the winning bidder?


----------



## csi.northcoast (Aug 7, 2010)

opps i meant does


----------



## motoxguy (Oct 17, 2010)

Just wondering then what big box stores or retail chains does AGMG provide service for in WI?


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

We do try to notify everyone even if they do not win the bid... I am sure we still struggle with this...as for Big Box in WI we service the one that is not Walmart.


----------



## erkoehler (Sep 25, 2008)

Just submitted paperwork last week, hoping that some local properties are still available! 

I'll keep you guys updated on how the process goes for us.


----------



## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Rich Arlington;1090756 said:


> We do try to notify everyone even if they do not win the bid... I am sure we still struggle with this...as for Big Box in WI we service the one that is not Walmart.


Even a blanket email to ALL contractors that bid saying the awards have been made. If you didnt get a "yes" from us, you were not awarded the contract...


----------



## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Rich Arlington;1090171 said:


> FYI in the National realm of things customers are always looking for lower and lower pricing. this is the reason reverse auctions are starting to get popular.


Rich, I give you quality points for coming on here and the efforts you are making. You are doing a good job communicating to the contractors, and trying your best to separate yourself from the other nationals. The nationals continue to be under a dark cloud with good reason.

I don't agree with you on this technique. They are not popular and cause the pricing to dive quicker than anything else out there. From my prospective it's truly harmful to the contractors. It sparks a frenzy with the desperado's and the uninformed, and I'm confident the stores love it. This is a one way street that benefit only the stores, leaving the "successful" contractors pondering how they will cheat and cut corners to make a profit doing their work.

If no one participated in this evil way of doing business it would go away. It creates a horrible atmosphere......


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

TCLA, as a contractor I do agree with you. this is the reason we started AGMG over 12 years ago...we do ask contractors to follow the agreed scope of work and we will help with anything we can. As a National we must compete on price because that is all they seem to care about these days. There is no room for cheating or cutting corners. Our inspections go right down the line with the scope of work... That being said, we dont win many bids because we and our vendors are not the cheapest bid. However, the work we do win and accept we keep for along time.


----------



## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

buckwheat_la;1089146 said:


> I think you need to re read this thread, as you obviously are a little mislead/ignorant about Rich, my understanding is that AGMG takes contractors pricing and make their bids based of that (they aren't dictating pricing like USM), meaning if you are going to blame someone for poor prices on these places, blame the guy that bid it out at $20 000 (or $29 000). As far as the $20 000 dollar amount, aren't you going to feel foolish if he comes on here with proof?


I think maybe you should reread what they do as a company. They are a national just like all others. I am not mislead or ignorant. I think we could all agree that some of the figures that are on this thread are way out of line. Use his figures for the Lowes he talks about. Just for xhits and giggles please do the calculations ( amount of push's, saltings, estimated cost of equipment, fuel, labor, insurance,etc ) ( go with low figures) . Figure out what you might have charged. 

Also Buckwheat, I found this post from you in August. " IMO you know what the real problem is? us contractors haven't started our OWN managment company/companies. Now here is a idea, get one or two contractors from each major market, and HIRE office staff (at our expense) to orgainze and bid contracts. Management companies are acting as middle men, why can't we cut out the middlemen? i am sure by the time you add in the money the management companies take in all of a sudden there would be money to go around and pretty soon $35/hour would look more like $75-$100/hour. Also a big corporate contract could be rest assured that a large group of responsible and experienced contractors would police themselves, would keep lowballers and hacks out, and carry proper insurance and registration. AND if this was done right, what need would there be for these management companies, etc. I would also add that places like plowsite/lawnsite, already have the infastructure to make the connections with other contractors. " Could you help me understand this better? Thanks in advance.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

Tiflawn,
that is exactly what AGMG is... Affiliated Grounds Maintenance Group... we started this by selecting specific contractors that were not hacks, did have all the right knowledge and equipment.... but keep in mind that is why we as a company dont win alot of the bids, our pricing is too high... AGMG does not keep huge profits, currently our gross profit marging is very low considering... we dont have a huge staff because we dont have to babysit reputable contractors.... just keep up with us sooner or later the tide will shift, more and more clients are getting tired of the cheap pricing they are coming around....


----------



## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

No sir. You are just another national trying to get a piece of the pie. My company and many other smaller firms offer the same services that you all do. However we do not negotiate for a piece of the pie. Your figures do not add up. The people w/ the equipment, labor force, insurance, etc, should set the standards. You know exactly what I am getting at. Some may not agree with me but in our industry there is not enough room for nationals. The price of our services should be based on what contractors need to do the job properly. Not what the customer and nationals negotiate. 

If I wanted to work for peanuts I would sit at the zoo and scratch myself for the people.


----------



## Advantage (Nov 7, 2007)

Many very good points all around. But consider this. Business is business. Can you fault a company for stepping in to compete in the national arena because they too were fed up with the "others"? I cannot say that we would not do the same thing given the chance. It becomes a natural progression as a company expands. Either you grow or die. As Rich mentioned AGMG started as contractors like the rest of us. I have not worked with them, and am certainly not the biggest fan of nationals; but as a business person I certainly understand their reasoning and model behind it all.


----------



## ajslands (Sep 3, 2009)

How does a large cooperation such as walmart, pick a national management company? Is their a phonebook that has all the nationals in it? 
And do national compaines send a representive out to go a talk to the customer. Or do they just do it over the phone. 
I apologize that these questions aren't specefic to AGMG, but you're in the bussiness so you would probably know the most as opposed to google or posting a thread.


----------



## Rich Arlington (Aug 8, 2010)

I will first say this... the pricing that I post on here is not my pricing... I am giving you averages that I find out about because we are national... the average lowes for 20,000 well that does not mean every lowes is that price, I know of some in the country that are only 9-11,000 per season....yes we did start by grouping together contractors and bidding on jobs as a national. Now we are a full integrated national, but we dont have 7000 employees, a big shiney office building... no we keep overhead low so most of the price goes directly to the contractor doing the work. we do not encourage subs of subs, does it still happen? I am sure and when I find out I try to nip it. too many hands in the pie dont leave much.

as for the negoitiating... yes myself and crystal fly alot.. we want to be face to face with the decision makers... we have account managers that go around and visit as many sites as possible before the RFP is due... no we dont get to them all on the big ones... on a regional level yes our team visits every site, sits down and has conversations with not only the client but the contractor too.

hope this answered your question


----------



## hoskm01 (Oct 17, 2008)

Tiflawn;1092244 said:


> Some may not agree with me but in our industry there is not enough room for nationals.


What you continue to fail to recognize is that this is the trend; it saves money to the paying customer. You can adapt, have an open mind, and prosper, like most do, or you can continue to beat this dead horse topic up and down on plowsite while making an *** of yourself calling Rich a liar and a cheat.


----------



## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Gotta give you credit Rich for continuing to be front and center.


----------



## C&H Plowing (Aug 10, 2010)

I dont know what is going on with AGM, I put alot of bids in awhile ago and cant believe that none of them went through, Its probably what the extra $ that tacked on made it look like a fat price. Im begining to think that something stinks with AGM.


----------



## plowboss (Oct 29, 2002)

And an Ahmen to you, from someone whos been in the bussiness for 30 years, it saddens me to see
whats happening, I'm thankful that most of mine is already made. I refuse to work for free, 
especially as hard as we all work.


----------



## Tiflawn (Oct 30, 2005)

hoskm01;1092421 said:


> What you continue to fail to recognize is that this is the trend; it saves money to the paying customer. You can adapt, have an open mind, and prosper, like most do, or you can continue to beat this dead horse topic up and down on plowsite while making an *** of yourself calling Rich a liar and a cheat.


This is not the trend. It only saves the customer money for a year or two. They realize that low prices mean a different service provided. When ice is not cleared and snow builds up because some of the subs can not do the work they thought they could for the price they bid, then liability becomes an issue. I have secured local stores that are supposed to be signed with a national. Reason, less headaches for the store managers. They have a choice who is on their lots. I do not need to adapt. I am not making an *** of myself. I am simply defending contractors who bust their butts and should get paid accordingly. By any chance are you a Democrat? Just curious.
ussmileyflag


----------



## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

ok guys, I think we are good to go regarding AGMG, etc.

Rich gave his info, thoughts, etc. and we can agree, disagree, agree to disagree, etc. but this thread is now closed


----------

