# 100% clueless newbie



## cmos123 (Jan 14, 2013)

I currently live in Austin Tx, but will be moving to the Pittsburgh area in a few months. I currently own a very small lawn and tree business down here, but want to take advantage of snow removal for winter cash once we move. I have around $800 to spend on equipment, and I am leaning towards the Ariens compact 24, a two stage blower. I have read several forums on here but still have questions. I know many have already been discussed, but I will waste everyone's time and ask again. Thanks.

Is snow blowing done mostly at night and extremely early morning?

Should I get a single or two stage blower? Plow is out of the question for now.

How long will a typical four car flat drive take with a 24 inch blower, and how much should it cost?

After using a two stage blower do I need to use a shovel to get up the last bit of snow, or just leave it?

If I do a drive while it is still snowing, do I need to go back to that account, if so,do I charge anything for that?

How much snow is enough to start blowing? (yes, I am talking about the snow)

Is salt bad for concrete drives? if so what do you use?

Any other advice will be gladly accepted, and remember, I have lived in Texas for 29 years, and I know nothing of snow, so even the most basic of advice can help.

Thanks again.


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Nothing in Pittsburgh is flat. Be prepared to climb some mountain-like driveways. I would also suggest doing trees and lawns since it doesn't snow that much in Pittsburgh. Also make sure you are insured, I can't possibly stress that enough. Read up on steelers, penguins and pirates history, it'll more than likely be a conversation piece with those people. They bleed black and gold down there


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## cmos123 (Jan 14, 2013)

Most of my family is in the Pittsburgh area, and I am already a Steelers fan. I know it is very hilly, but I was just trying to describe an easy driveway for a price point. I will definitely be doing trees and lawns, but I would like to make some money during the winter instead of starving. Thanks.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Problem whit Pittsburgh besides all their crappy teams is you kind of on the boarder of rain/snow. Just north will get the snow and south gets the rain. When you move up there try and hook up with a company or two to do some sub work.or be on call for snowblowing or shoveling.


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## CashinH&P (Jan 14, 2012)

cmos123;1567828 said:


> Most of my family is in the Pittsburgh area, and I am already a Steelers fan. I know it is very hilly, but I was just trying to describe an easy driveway for a price point. I will definitely be doing trees and lawns, but I would like to make some money during the winter instead of starving. Thanks.


Dont count on snow for an income unles you can get some contracted seasonal accounts and Im not sure if people will go for that with a snowblower. Why is a plow out of the question?


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## 2006Sierra1500 (Dec 28, 2011)

To the first question:

No, it is done whenever it snows. Snow plowers don't have set hours, the storm controls us.


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## mpriester (Oct 2, 2011)

you may want to look for a 4 wheeler with a plow if a pick up mounted plow is out of the question. Pgh is full of small businesses that are dificult to work with a pick up but very workable with a quad and plow and it will also handle driveways but i'm assuming you already have a pick up and a used plow can be had for a few hundred that needs work but it will be a start and you can upgrade as you go. Don't forget salt, i'm south of Pgh and we get more salting events than plowing and when it does snow enough for a plowing event you'll wish you had a truck mounted plow, the first plowing event we had around Christmas kept me out for 31hrs straight due to repeat plowings and i have only a handful of accounts. On another note you may want to work for another snow removal company and get an idea of what your dealing with since its completely new to you and than break out on your own and not only that but learn how to drive in it if you never have before you go out hauling or pulling equipment in a snow storm.


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## jasonv (Nov 2, 2012)

cmos123;1567818 said:


> I currently live in Austin Tx, but will be moving to the Pittsburgh area in a few months. I currently own a very small lawn and tree business down here, but want to take advantage of snow removal for winter cash once we move. I have around $800 to spend on equipment, and I am leaning towards the Ariens compact 24, a two stage blower. I have read several forums on here but still have questions. I know many have already been discussed, but I will waste everyone's time and ask again. Thanks.
> 
> Is snow blowing done mostly at night and extremely early morning?
> 
> ...


Salt is bad for EVERYTHING, especially cars. Despite that, it still gets used.
But not by me. I don't do commercial plowing, I only do my own stuff, and I wouldn't touch salt. Not ever.

From the commercial snow remover's perspective, however, salt prevents people from becoming injured and/or dead, which prevents them and their families from suing you.

The world sucks badly, everybody nowadays sues everyone else for their own stupidity. You need to protect yourself from this.

Quite frankly, if I wiped out and hurt myself on an unsalted piece of ice on private property, I would be EMBARRASSED to complain about it. Certainly wouldn't bring lawyers into it. More people should be like me.

Note: I'm also against salting roads. I'd much prefer snowy/icy roads, keep the wusses off the road, I can use spikes, chains, 4wd, and slow down as needed. Throw down a little sand on intersections, hills, and curves, and call it good.


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## 2006Sierra1500 (Dec 28, 2011)

Never thought this day would come but I agree with JasonV


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## trustyrusty (Dec 31, 2008)

2006Sierra1500;1567943 said:


> Never thought this day would come but I agree with JasonV


Me too... this once.


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## willshome (Mar 5, 2012)

cmos123;1567818 said:


> Should I get a single or two stage blower? Plow is out of the question for now.


if your going blower I would get both
Single is great on wet snow and easy out of truck (check craigslist Toro's sell for like $100)
2stage is good for deep snow


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## tread lightly services (Jan 8, 2012)

willshome;1568118 said:


> if your going blower I would get both
> Single is great on wet snow and easy out of truck (check craigslist Toro's sell for like $100)
> 2stage is good for deep snow


agreed x2


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## cmos123 (Jan 14, 2013)

Dont count on snow for an income unles you can get some contracted seasonal accounts and Im not sure if people will go for that with a snowblower. Why is a plow out of the question?

I have an old 92 chevy and I do not think it could handle having a plow on it, also with a $800 dollar budget a snow blower seems more affordable. 

Someone else here said get a single and a two stage blower. With $800 to spend I found a toro single stage 18 inch with a 87cc engine. Is that too small of a engine??
For a two stage I found a power smart 24" with that cheap LCT on it. But Ariens has carried the Sno-tek brand under their wing for 10 years now with that engine, so is this engine really that bad? From what I can tell, the power smart is similar to the snow-tek.


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

cmos123;1567818 said:


> I currently live in Austin Tx, but will be moving to the Pittsburgh area in a few months. I currently own a very small lawn and tree business down here, but want to take advantage of snow removal for winter cash once we move. I have around $800 to spend on equipment, and I am leaning towards the Ariens compact 24, a two stage blower. I have read several forums on here but still have questions. I know many have already been discussed, but I will waste everyone's time and ask again. Thanks.
> 
> Is snow blowing done mostly at night and extremely early morning? anytime 24/7
> 
> ...


*Is snow blowing done mostly at night and extremely early morning?

Should I get a single or two stage blower? Plow is out of the question for now.

How long will a typical four car flat drive take with a 24 inch blower, and how much should it cost?

After using a two stage blower do I need to use a shovel to get up the last bit of snow, or just leave it?

If I do a drive while it is still snowing, do I need to go back to that account, if so,do I charge anything for that?

How much snow is enough to start blowing? (yes, I am talking about the snow)

Is salt bad for concrete drives? if so what do you use?

Any other advice will be gladly accepted, and remember, I have lived in Texas for 29 years, and I know nothing of snow, so even the most basic of advice can help.

Thanks again. *

yes


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## willshome (Mar 5, 2012)

cmos123;1568188 said:


> I found a toro single stage 18 inch with a 87cc engine. Is that too small of a engine??


I have a "toro ccr powerlite 3hp" it is a great little blower paid $80 used. Today I used it to move snow/water I could never move this water with a 2stage


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

willshome;1568329 said:


> I have a "toro ccr powerlite 3hp" it is a great little blower paid $80 used. Today I used it to move snow/water I could never move this water with a 2stage


let me guess , rubber squeegee on the tines ?


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## willshome (Mar 5, 2012)

Spool it up;1568335 said:


> let me guess , rubber squeegee on the tines ?


yes and it does not clog like the 2stage blowers i have used with real wet snow


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## perrysee (Jul 30, 2009)

i would start out with a 2 stage snowblower and work your way up to getting more equipement.


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

willshome;1568343 said:


> yes and it does not clog like the 2stage blowers i have used with real wet snow


i think ur ready for a meyer 7'6'' power angle w/ a polyethylene cutting edge


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## goel (Nov 23, 2010)

It all depends how hard you work.


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## cmos123 (Jan 14, 2013)

perrysee;1568399 said:


> i would start out with a 2 stage snowblower and work your way up to getting more equipement.


Would you recommend a decent Ariens 2 stage and then maybe get a nice Toro single stage later? If I do this, do I have to shovel the little bit of snow left behind by the 2 stage or do customers understand that there will be a little bit left behind? Thanks.


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## OC&D (Dec 2, 2009)

jasonv;1567923 said:


> Salt is bad for EVERYTHING, especially cars.


Certainly not everything. Without salt, you couldn't have typed that.


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## willshome (Mar 5, 2012)

Spool it up;1568451 said:


> i think ur ready for a meyer 7'6'' power angle w/ a polyethylene cutting edge


WoW that's a big plow do you think my 6 cylinder engine can handle it??



cmos123;1568586 said:


> Would you recommend a decent Ariens 2 stage and then maybe get a nice Toro single stage later? If I do this, do I have to shovel the little bit of snow left behind by the 2 stage or do customers understand that there will be a little bit left behind? Thanks.


No one gets 100% clean with out salt/ice melt or a sweepster
Tell customers that you recommend salt or ice melt to remove the 1/8" left over snow/ice. This is a great add-on $$$


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## Spool it up (Oct 30, 2012)

willshome;1568788 said:


> WoW that's a big plow do you think my 6 cylinder engine can handle it??
> 
> No one gets 100% clean with out salt/ice melt or a sweepster
> Tell customers that you recommend salt or ice melt to remove the 1/8" left over snow/ice. This is a great add-on $$$


there are 6 footers also . sure .


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## cmos123 (Jan 14, 2013)

willshome;1568788 said:


> WoW that's a big plow do you think my 6 cylinder engine can handle it??
> 
> No one gets 100% clean with out salt/ice melt or a sweepster
> Tell customers that you recommend salt or ice melt to remove the 1/8" left over snow/ice. This is a great add-on $$$


Thanks that makes sense. I had read in another thread somewhere that some companies were using a two stage then a singe stage to get rid of more snow. But doing the drive once then up selling makes a lot more sense, and money. For a 4 car driveway what would you up charge for a ice-melt other than salt. (I have read bad things about salt on here)


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## OC&D (Dec 2, 2009)

cmos123;1568839 said:


> For a 4 car driveway what would you up charge for a ice-melt other than salt. (I have read bad things about salt on here)


People get a little uppity about salt. The truth is that salt is not really as harmful to concrete as many would like you to think (or asphalt for that matter). Consider the concrete salt bins in use all over the place or the asphalt under a pile all winter in a parking lot. I've seen no adverse reactions in either case, and personally know of a number of places that have been using the same concrete pad and blocks for their salt bins for years.

When it comes to grass and plants, the adverse effects are more prominent and something to be considered particularly when it comes to residential. You might consider using ONLY ice-melt if this is a concern of yours and base your prices accordingly. Having to stock up on two separate materials and keep track of who gets what will be more work than it's worth.

Regarding pricing, I can't really help you.


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## cmos123 (Jan 14, 2013)

A little off topic, but does anyone know if roof raking would be another way to make money living just north of Pittsburgh in the Indiana county area? It looks like that is the area I will be moving to. Thanks everyone for all the help so far. Check out the Charette roof rake, terrible website, but the rake looks like it would work great.


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## booger1 (Jan 20, 2013)

1 As sead before the storm really dictates when you will be going out.

2 The best would be to get one of each, a bigger 2 stage for drives but a smaller 1 stage is better if they have a walk going to the door and if they have a porch or deck,it will faster than shoveling and a lot easier than trying to hoof a 2 stage up on the deck.

3 The length of time can vary greatly on the amount of snow and type (powder,wet)

4 No you dont have to shovel that last little bit of snow, thats left by the blower.
ins
5 If it is still snowing and gets enough to blow again of course you will have to go back, as far as charging more, that would depend on the account. If they pay only when you show up, then they pay each time you return, but if they pay seasonal it's one price if you go once or a hundred times.

6 most around here weight untill there is at least 2 or 3 inches before thinking about blowing, but again that can vary depending on how much your gonna get. If the storm is calling for say 5 weight till it's done (if possible), but if it's calling for 1 foot plan on doing it twice. at the least.

7 YES salt CAN mess up concrete. It causes the concrete serface to crumble and becomes rough. now it doesn;t happen over night but if you get and leave to much salt at one spot it will most definataly damage the concrete. ( those concrete storage bins are sealed to protect the concrete). So a good ice melter would be my recamondation for concrete. also if you do a dirt or stone drive, again NO SALT. The salt will thaw the seface and then you get an ugly muddy mess.

This should answer your questions but as stated before, the best thing for you would be to team up with someone who is familiar with your area and learn from them. Keep that $800.00 in the bank to put towards your own plow for next season, then if you still want to do snow removal you will have a better idea of whats going on, and if you decide it's not for you, you got 800 bucks to have a party with.


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## willshome (Mar 5, 2012)

Spool it up;1568815 said:


> there are 6 footers also . sure .


"Spool" I was just joking, just because I like having a small blower and big ones too. Does not mean I need a 7'6" plow. I think the 9' I have works fine



cmos123;1569482 said:


> A little off topic, but does anyone know if roof raking


Most people only want roof clearing if there is way to much snow or there is a problem (leaking roof). Most years we don't get calls about it just years it snow a lot.

snow blowing roofs is fun


Snow roof Bridgewater by willslawns, on Flickr


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## cmos123 (Jan 14, 2013)

booger1;1570801 said:


> 1 As sead before the storm really dictates when you will be going out.
> 
> 2 The best would be to get one of each, a bigger 2 stage for drives but a smaller 1 stage is better if they have a walk going to the door and if they have a porch or deck,it will faster than shoveling and a lot easier than trying to hoof a 2 stage up on the deck.
> 
> ...


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## OC&D (Dec 2, 2009)

booger1;1570801 said:


> 7 YES salt CAN mess up concrete. It causes the concrete serface to crumble and becomes rough. now it doesn;t happen over night but if you get and leave to much salt at one spot it will most definataly damage the concrete. ( those concrete storage bins are sealed to protect the concrete).


I respectfully disagree.

"Sodium chloride has little or no effect on properly air entrained concrete but will damage plants and corrode metal. "

The Portland Cement Association has some interesting info on the subject.


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## ceptorman (Nov 30, 2011)

Welcome CMOS.......nothing to add to the excellent advice others are giving you, but, with the new COTA racetrack, I would stay in Austin!


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## zak406 (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't want to be an ass but I wouldn't bother if your not a full time landscaping company that plows for extra income in the winter....winters here are nothing to write home about. If extra income is a concern jobs are easy to come by in Pitt.


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## CalgaryLawnSalo (Sep 15, 2012)

Is snow blowing done mostly at night and extremely early morning?
-Depends on what you're working on. If it's residential driveways you clear the snow whenever it stops snowing. Could be late, could be early, could be mid day. To be honest though I just make sure it's clear for when they get home from work. Do my best to have it done by 4:30PM at the latest.

Should I get a single or two stage blower? Plow is out of the question for now.
-Two stage. Single stage is a waste of money. You should be able to get a good used one for $450-600.

How long will a typical four car flat drive take with a 24 inch blower, and how much should it cost?
-Depends how much snow there is. If there's only 1-4 inches it's usually best just to use a hand shovel and power through it. Or if you have a good, strong backpack blower those work well too on light snowfalls. You'll get it done much quicker then a snow blower. Shouldn't take more then 15 minutes. When there's larger snowfalls then use the snow blower. Might take a bit longer. You'll have to use hand shovels to clean up after too. Another good reason to have a backpack blower. But if you do get a back pack blower don't cheap out. The cheap ones are just that - cheap. And charge roughly $15-$30 per driveway depending on area and difficulty. 

After using a two stage blower do I need to use a shovel to get up the last bit of snow, or just leave it?
-Get it

If I do a drive while it is still snowing, do I need to go back to that account, if so,do I charge anything for that?
-Yes, charge for every time you go. Unless you have some clients pay monthly.

How much snow is enough to start blowing? (yes, I am talking about the snow)
-1 to 1.5 inches.

Is salt bad for concrete drives? if so what do you use?
-I always use salts. Some are less harmful then others. I just make sure to get it off after a couple days. Charge accordingly. 

Any other advice will be gladly accepted, and remember, I have lived in Texas for 29 years, and I know nothing of snow, so even the most basic of advice can help.
-I've been doing this awhile now and the two hardest aspect of the job are pricing the work and dealing with the unpredictability of snow. You must always be prepared to work, no matter what. EVERY long weekend vacation I have planned over the last three years has been cut early due to snow. I cannot fly anywhere in the winters. If I go somewhere it must be no more then a 3 hour drive away so I can get home quickly if snow starts to fall.

But good luck as this can be a very lucrative business with "little" amounts of work. And I say "little" due to the fact it usually doesn't snow more then 40 times in the winter so you're really only working 40 to 50 days in a while 6 months (where I live, winter is 6 months). The days you work are hard but you get a lot of time off if you do it right. Make sure you're making bucket loads when it does snow. I make sure that two snowfalls a month cover all my business expenses, rent, and groceries. Anything on top is extra. I recommend per snowfall making at least $750-1000 minimum. This also depends where you live. No idea what your local economy is like. Mine is VERY inflated. 

Hope some of this helps!


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

2006Sierra1500;1567943 said:


> Never thought this day would come but I agree with JasonV


Me too on this one.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

willshome;1568118 said:


> if your going blower I would get both
> Single is great on wet snow and easy out of truck (check craigslist Toro's sell for like $100)
> 2stage is good for deep snow


Some people here say how much faster their single stages are in light snows then a 2 stage.

Though home owners stop me as I drive by because the plow truck closed in their driveway and their single stage can't clean out the plow row. Or they have been trying to clean their driveway for hours with their single stages and are getting no where because the snow was to deep.

I started doing driveways with a 24" 1996 TroyBilt when it was still made by Troybilt. Not a MTD made TB. This TB was bought to just do my own home.

My second year I got a 2003 28" Sears hardley ever used, still looked new in 2009 for $150. We all should find deals that good all the time.

This leads me to say buying a single stage will still leave you needing a 2 stage for the tuff jobs.

As to productivity I say you want the biggest snow blower you can buy. If I remember that is a 38" wide 2 stage. At this point I wished I had at least one 38" blower. They do not make single stages that wide.

Edit to add: I do not know about snow fall levels in Pittsburg, though I know where I live snow removal can make one some good money. Though snow fall is not consistant enough to buy snow removal equipment on credit or use money that you would need to get through the winter and be able to start up landscaping again.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

cmos123;1568586 said:


> Would you recommend a decent Ariens 2 stage and then maybe get a nice Toro single stage later? If I do this, do I have to shovel the little bit of snow left behind by the 2 stage or do customers understand that there will be a little bit left behind? Thanks.


I would get the Ariens 36" or JD 38" and forget the single stage.

As to the snow blowers "crumbs" I always go out with 1 other person. One on a blower while the other one does the shovel work such as stairs. Once the shovel work is done they then get rid of the regular snow shovel and grab a 30" plow type shovel and go over the driveway to clean up the crumbs.

Not much crumb volume so it is easy and fast work to clean up the crumbs while the last of the snowblowing is being done. So we done not really spend any extra time there.

When there is three people working then we run both blowers a the third guy takes care of the crumbs at the same time.

For me leaving no crumbs is a selling point about the quality of my work. Their drive way will melt and dry off fast. Greatly reducing the chance ice forming, and no need to use salt.


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## kg26 (Feb 5, 2013)

Calcium chloride is good for drive ways its not as harsh as rock salt, snow blower is going to take anywhere from 34-45 min dress warm, When should you come out after the storm of course however make sure you and your client are on the same page some people want you to come out on an inch some want you to wait until 3 inches have fallen its customer pref.


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