# Volatile insurance market



## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

There’s a story circulating on a couple other threads here right now about a guy who serviced a large number of accounts and had to shutdown midwinter, leaving his clients in the lurch. He said a 300% increase in overhead, mentioning specifically insurance costs, are what forced his hand in shutting down. Ethics and motives of the story aside, I’m super curious about what seems to be an unusually volatile insurance marketplace right now. He’s not the first I’ve heard of this season getting out due to an unmanageable increase in insurance. How are you guys feeling about your insurance this year? Have any of you experienced wild spikes in price? I’ve been on the phone with my agent this morning trying to pick her brain and see if there’s a huge jump coming down the pipeline. Didn’t get a lot of info from her so I thought I’d pick y’all’s brain.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

PS my apologies if this has been discussed at length before I got here. Using the search function didn’t seem to turn up anything recent


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## kevinjd (Mar 3, 2016)

Kinport said:


> There's a story circulating on a couple other threads here right now about a guy who serviced a large number of accounts and had to shutdown midwinter, leaving his clients in the lurch. He said a 300% increase in overhead, mentioning specifically insurance costs, are what forced his hand in shutting down. Ethics and motives of the story aside, I'm super curious about what seems to be an unusually volatile insurance marketplace right now. He's not the first I've heard of this season getting out due to an unmanageable increase in insurance. How are you guys feeling about your insurance this year? Have any of you experienced wild spikes in price? I've been on the phone with my agent this morning trying to pick her brain and see if there's a huge jump coming down the pipeline. Didn't get a lot of info from her so I thought I'd pick y'all's brain.


My G/L (slip and fall) insurance this season, 6 month policy, went from $1500 to $2800, I do residential only and have never had a claim. My previous insurer stopped taking this market(Lloyd's Of London).

hope this helps. 
Kevin


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Yikes! $1800 increase...that’s a lot of driveways! Was there any explanation given or was that because you switched to a new carrier and that was the new price they gave you?


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## kevinjd (Mar 3, 2016)

Kinport said:


> Yikes! $1300 increase...that's a lot of driveways! Was there any explanation given or was that because you switched to a new carrier and that was the new price they gave you?


Same agent, Lloyds stopped writing this market, my Agent shopped for a policy and this was the best deal. It is getting pricey, I would not operate without insurance.

Kevin


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

kevinjd said:


> It is getting pricey, I would not operate without insurance.


right, as litigation could quickly become far more expensive than insurance. It's a hiring requirement at most commercial sites as well so there's no real way around it. I appreciate you sharing your experiences.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Kinport said:


> There's a story circulating on a couple other threads here right now about a guy who serviced a large number of accounts and had to shutdown midwinter, leaving his clients in the lurch. He said a 300% increase in overhead, mentioning specifically insurance costs, are what forced his hand in shutting down. Ethics and motives of the story aside, I'm super curious about what seems to be an unusually volatile insurance marketplace right now. He's not the first I've heard of this season getting out due to an unmanageable increase in insurance. How are you guys feeling about your insurance this year? Have any of you experienced wild spikes in price? I've been on the phone with my agent this morning trying to pick her brain and see if there's a huge jump coming down the pipeline. Didn't get a lot of info from her so I thought I'd pick y'all's brain.


Insurance cost differs by location with population and risk of liability exposure being a factor. G/L for snow only cost most than having snow coverage added on to your coverage for your primary business focus ( lawncare, trades, etc....
The cost for G/L back east especially New Jerky compared to the cost ootwest is huge mainly due to dense population and sue happy people looking for a settlement check.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Currently switching wc carriers. In Michigan if you’re under a certain payroll, you have only a small selection of agencies in what’s called a pool. My payroll is/ was at that number, but they audit you annually and if there’s any increase you pay out.
We’re switching for a lower premium, currently with Travelers, was with liberty mutual


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Wc is also based on rate for how many claims that job is likely to have. Roofers pay the highest.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

BUFF said:


> G/L for snow only cost most than having snow coverage added on to your coverage for your primary business focus ( lawncare, trades, etc....


That's how we do, it's added onto our policy we carry for moving dirt. That, In addition to being out west in a small market, I imagine our rates are fairly low compared to others on here. I just hear stories or see things about exorbitant jumps in insurance rates and start imagining worst case scenarios. We're already fighting deflating prices as a result of poorly run NSPs and the local low ballers, the thought of huge overhead increases stresses me out. I appreciate every bodies input and was just curious what everybody else feels about it


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

My G/L and vehicle rates finally went down this year. Had a few bad years but the insurers are getting a bit more competitive again, at least in Michigan.

WC is through our state association...MHISWCF or something like that. I think @Ajlawn1 came up with the "abbreviation".

Michigan is pretty good for slip and fall being the responsiblity of the slipper/faller. And it's even better on the west side...culture wise and grasping the concept of winter.


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## 512high (Jan 18, 2010)

You know what pisses me off? I have lived in New Hampshire all my life, I am not way up, but southern part, about 35-38 miles northwest of Boston, regarding snow here this season, well it sucks. What really upsets me is people that live in the "snowbelt" any areas that have cold temps and snow, DRESS FOR THE ELEMENTS! Few weeks ago one of my small lots, we had about 5-6" light moveable snow, I see this young lady, getting out of her Honda, and FYI lot was plowed and I was getting ready to salt, she is wearing 3" heels.

I stopped, got out, and helped her to the door which was maybe 25 ft. away, she said" Gosh figured you would have started earlier and have this already salted!" I wanted to say, something but didn't , for the love of god, wear boots(winter) put your heels in a bag or whatever, all I saw was her falling or something, that's why I jumped out to escort, would have been great to tell the court light snow was ending, and she had heels on, give me a break, sorry OP

And you wonder why insurance rates are where they are.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

512high said:


> You know what pisses me off? I have lived in New Hampshire all my life, I am not way up, but southern part, about 35-38 miles northwest of Boston, regarding snow here this season, well it sucks. What really upsets me is people that live in the "snowbelt" any areas that have cold temps and snow, DRESS FOR THE ELEMENTS! Few weeks ago one of my small lots, we had about 5-6" light moveable snow, I see this young lady, getting out of her Honda, and FYI lot was plowed and I was getting ready to salt, she is wearing 3" heels.
> 
> I stopped, got out, and helped her to the door which was maybe 25 ft. away, she said" Gosh figured you would have started earlier and have this already salted!" I wanted to say, something but didn't , for the love of god, wear boots(winter) put your heels in a bag or whatever, all I saw was her falling or something, that's why I jumped out to escort, would have been great to tell the court light snow was ending, and she had heels on, give me a break, sorry OP
> 
> And you wonder why insurance rates are where they are.


I can one up you with the lady in my instance was shopping on like a Tuesday evening in an active snowstorm for bomboniere (aka party favors) and just happened to have her newborn with her.
As for insurance, it's an issue up here as well. Here's a link to a recent meeting held by our landscape trade organization...

https://s.bluemail.me/ws/ODHUBVt3mGF

Hopefully that link works / helps.

Just actually spoke with my insurance broker... I'll just post the email, hopefully it works. My premium is the one for Fourteen Contracting (includes summer maintenance as well) the irrigation one is separate from snow / landscaping but all grouped into one premium.

https://s.bluemail.me/ws/Hv7ytRXNpxF

Also, what does WC stand for? Mean?


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

Workers comp


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

prezek said:


> Workers comp


Ah, you guys can pick carriers for that. Didn't know. Have to use the gov't sponsored one up here, no choice. Insert Canada joke.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Ah, you guys can pick carriers for that. Didn't know. Have to use the gov't sponsored one up here, no choice. Insert Canada joke.


That's how they fund Trudeau's craft donut habit.....


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I can one up you with the lady in my instance was shopping on like a Tuesday evening in an active snowstorm for bomboniere (aka party favors) and just happened to have her newborn with her.
> As for insurance, it's an issue up here as well. Here's a link to a recent meeting held by our landscape trade organization...
> 
> https://s.bluemail.me/ws/ODHUBVt3mGF
> ...


Read thru the meeting notes, what a great thing those guys have going. Would love to see legislation in my own state that would protect licensed professional contractors from overreaching litigation.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Kinport said:


> Read thru the meeting notes, what a great thing those guys have going. Would love to see legislation in my own state that would protect licensed professional contractors from overreaching litigation.


Def. Just checked my premium last year... snow / landscape maintenance went up 100% and irrigation went up 53%. Haven't had any claims on either... ever (knock on wood)
Also, auto policy went up 9%, there was a claim last year but wasn't our fault ( got rear ended) so yea, obv. a volatile market. 
Any of the more experienced guys go through this before?


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## GMC Driver (Sep 9, 2005)

We went through alot of this a few years ago. Our provider was bought out, new ownership said no more snow. So we got a notice 5 months before renewal.

Ended up with 3 options: 2 were to pay double, but had stipulations on who our client list could/could not include. Third option was to pay triple and carry on with our current client list. We chose to go with the third option.

Now with a few more years under our belt, our premiums have reduced to about double where we started. Still a big pill, but somehow it all works out.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

GMC Driver said:


> We went through alot of this a few years ago. Our provider was bought out, new ownership said no more snow. So we got a notice 5 months before renewal.
> 
> Ended up with 3 options: 2 were to pay double, but had stipulations on who our client list could/could not include. Third option was to pay triple and carry on with our current client list. We chose to go with the third option.
> 
> Now with a few more years under our belt, our premiums have reduced to about double where we started. Still a big pill, but somehow it all works out.


I think up here we need to get the legislation passed in order to affect the rates significantly... my MPP happens to be Stephen Lecce... seems a bit busy with the teacher strike at the moment.


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## Mudly (Feb 6, 2019)

I ending up switching from acuity to Erie Becuase a Erie agent showed up at my office. Long story short I sent my agent there quote and he even got a better number with better insurance. I have been overpaying for insurance by some 20% for 10 or so years. Both my agent and I were in disbelief, I was sick over it for a bit. My biggest issue with acuity is if a accident was reported to them they would just pay out without litigation regardless of the out come of the case... another story. Any way my bonds are still through liberty mutual but I’m liking Erie so far their contracts make more sense (haven’t had to deal with claims yet)


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## KFX450RXC (Sep 6, 2014)

I have been with Harford Mutual for many years. My snow plowing insurance has always been a part of my GL policy. I am a solo LCO but when we do get snow, I plow a LOT of properties. The problem here in NC is, we sometimes get snow and then again, there are times like this year where we probably won't have a single flake. I have two plows sitting in the barn nice and clean since last January.

Anyway, Harford just sent me a letter two weeks ago that they are dropping my snow plow coverage when my policy comes up for renewal in March. I have already contacted my agent and we're probably going to go with a different company altogether. I hope from this thread that doing so does not become a major problem. 

It's hard to justify a big insurance expense on something you may not even do.


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## E.L.P.M. (Aug 31, 2016)

So this is my snow plow insurance story. I live about 45 minutes west of Philadelphia so we do get our fair share of snow most years, unlike this year. I have about 25 accounts, everything from small banks to big box stores. At the end of the 2018-2019 snow season I was told Erie was going to drop my GL policy because they didn’t want to insure snow removal anymore. I was paying around $11,000 a year with a 1 million dollar umbrella and that also included my works comp and auto. I then started shopping my insurance. The 1st quote I got was for $100k, 2nd was $50k and I could do any sites I wanted and the third was $40k with restrictions. They wanted to pick and chose which sites I could service, which doesn’t work with me. I Contemplated if I should just get out of snow all together but, I have too many expenses to get out now. I got one more quote for $37k with no restrictions so I chose that one. By they way this is just for GL with no umbrella. All together with auto and works comp I pay around $42k now. That is a little more then a 1/4 of what I make, it is crazy. Since I signed the GL policy a few other companies did get back to me with premiums starting at $5k. I don’t know how this could be. I do have a friend who is paying $7k for gl and does double of the amount of work I do and has a hospital that he does and is only pay $7k, wtf I don’t understand. Has anyone else’s insurance gone up 4 x what they paid last year? That is my rant, ha


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## prezek (Dec 16, 2010)

I’m through donegal for commercial auto and GL. Based in PA somewhere I believe. I’d call them. My insurance expense is definitely not 25% of my gross.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

If my insurance was 1/4 of my gross I'd get a real job.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> If my insurance was 1/4 of my gross I'd get a real job.


Good thing it isn't........ don't think you're employable.....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> Good thing it isn't........ don't think you're employable.....


I know


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

BUFF said:


> Good thing it isn't........ don't think you're employable.....


I can answer that...No


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> I can answer that...No


I don't recall you being axed...


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes said:


> I don't recall you being axed...


It's an open forum...When you get the moderator title you can reprimand people...Until then...Your not the boss of me...MJD is


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> It's an open forum...When you get the moderator title you can reprimand people...Until then...Your not the boss of me...MJD is


SKW


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

ok, let's stick to the topic please

thanks


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## Ben/Insurance (Oct 22, 2012)

The insurance marketplace for snow removal is tightening up and my best advice is to deal with a larger, independent insurance agency that does a lot of construction/contracting insurance. They have the expertise and access to the marketplace that a smaller broker or a captive (Allstate) doesn't. The buzz in the business is that a hard insurance market is coming with pricing increases and changes in the terms and conditions of your insurance. Your broker will need to work hard marketing your insurance to interested carriers and negotiating with your current carriers. Get your loss runs every year and meet with your broker to talk about your claims (get the "open" claims "closed" whenever possible), marketplace conditions, and risk management techniques. Put your broker to work and utilize the services they provide.
Ben/Insurance
[email protected]


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## E.L.P.M. (Aug 31, 2016)

Thanks for the advice!


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## Jacobmb (Dec 3, 2013)

I had two seperate company owners reach out to me this winter to ask me if I could take over their accounts. When asked why, one said they are getting out because of insurance rates hike after a slip and fall. YIKES! I was curious and asked they had 24 commercial accounts they had an increase from 10k to 40k. Insurance rates here in Onterrible are stupid.


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## JoshA (Dec 12, 2008)

My insurance broker didn't even give me a rate hike, they asked me for some details regarding a new property I picked up as a sub. There were some questions that made me uncomfortable to answer as a sub, so I pressed for some context. The response I got was:


Sorry to be a pain, each new contract has to be re-underwritten as they have new guidelines for snow removal.

They still need the locations that you may do snow removal, even if you may not attend each address on your route.
They want to confirm that you don’t do any of the following as these are newly prohibited:


-Wal-Marts
-Stadiums
-Large Shopping Malls, Supercenters and Big Box Stores
-Casinos
-Highways
-Roads (unless small private roads eg: Cottage road)
- Municipal/Government (RCMP, Hospitals, Arenas, large Community Centres, court Houses, Schools, Public Sidewalks)

Exception can be made for small rural government/ municipal buildings (eg rural school, park admin office where private contractors are hired.

When you are requested to spread sand chips, is it by the GC or by the lot owner?"

Funny they should ask, because that list includes 90% of my business for the past 6 years.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

JoshA said:


> Funny they should ask, because that list includes 90% of my business for the past 6 years.


so what happened? Did your rates go way up? Did you drop that 90% of your work?


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

Kinport said:


> so what happened? Did your rates go way up? Did you drop that 90% of your work?


I think he was saying they only asked him about the one new contract that he is acting as a sub on. They didn't ask about all the other ones. And didn't hike the premium.


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## Kinport (Jan 9, 2020)

JoshA said:


> They want to confirm that you don't do any of the following as these are newly prohibited:


Your probably right, I saw this line and it made me think they were talking about his current route


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## KFX450RXC (Sep 6, 2014)

KFX450RXC said:


> I have been with Harford Mutual for many years. My snow plowing insurance has always been a part of my GL policy. I am a solo LCO but when we do get snow, I plow a LOT of properties. The problem here in NC is, we sometimes get snow and then again, there are times like this year where we probably won't have a single flake. I have two plows sitting in the barn nice and clean since last January.
> 
> Anyway, Harford just sent me a letter two weeks ago that they are dropping my snow plow coverage when my policy comes up for renewal in March. I have already contacted my agent and we're probably going to go with a different company altogether. I hope from this thread that doing so does not become a major problem.
> 
> It's hard to justify a big insurance expense on something you may not even do.


Well, today's the day my premium is due. My agent has been working quite a bit re-writing my policy in a way I will have snow plow coverage without me spending ridiculous amount of money on something I may not use for well over a year.

But yesterday, she sends me an email stating that after all this stuff we've been going through, the underwriters announced Harford will continue to cover snow plowing own their landscaper policies for companies in the south. That was our argument to them the whole time.

Just FYI for those down here.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

KFX450RXC said:


> Well, today's the day my premium is due. My agent has been working quite a bit re-writing my policy in a way I will have snow plow coverage without me spending ridiculous amount of money on something I may not use for well over a year.
> 
> But yesterday, she sends me an email stating that after all this stuff we've been going through, the underwriters announced Harford will continue to cover snow plowing own their landscaper policies for companies in the south. That was our argument to them the whole time.
> 
> Just FYI for those down here.


Guess they didn't want to lose you!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So we have "pollution" insurance, required by 1 customer. 

Apparently the "thing" is to send out a letter that they will not be renewing and this is the notification of that. 

Talk to my agent and he says: Yeah, they do that every year and will renew at the renewal date, just the way they do it. 

Makes perfect sense to me.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Mark Oomkes said:


> So we have "pollution" insurance, required by 1 customer.
> 
> Apparently the "thing" is to send out a letter that they will not be renewing and this is the notification of that.
> 
> ...


Ive never uderstood the "heads up! We're not going to renew you..." Approach. My previous insurer did this to me to which i responded
" So I should get my claims in now, while its you paying and not the next company that treats me right?" 
Leave it to an insurance company already dealing with rampant insurance fraud claims to make the problem worse.
Idiots.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

Mr.Markus said:


> Ive never uderstood the "heads up! We're not going to renew you..." Approach. My previous insurer did this to me to which i responded
> " So I should get my claims in now, while its you paying and not the next company that treats me right?"
> Leave it to an insurance company already dealing with rampant insurance fraud claims to make the problem worse.
> Idiots.


A lot of what seems like them being idiots is legal requirements for cancellation notices being provided XX days before cancellation passed by various governments.

The way they work around this is by notifying everyone of a cancellation just in case they do decide not to renew.

Sort of like if your yard work or plowing contracts automatically renewed unless you notified the customer, AND you were required by law to provide customers a 3 month warning of a cancellation or rate increase for yard work or plowing. You haven't figured out what your rates will be in the future, or which clients you want to drop, so you send out a warning notice to cover yourself.


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## Aerospace Eng (Mar 3, 2015)

I get a notice every year for my hangars, and the taildragger club gets one every year for the airplanes. No changes have actually occurred.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

In 26 years i never received one, the year i got one they dropped me at renewal. No claims not even a windshield claim in 26 years. Iy Iy an insurance company going through a demutualization. Asking for public investment money but to do so needs to clean up their books to appear profitable.
"We re a big company whos changing what we do invest in us."


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## JoshA (Dec 12, 2008)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> I think he was saying they only asked him about the one new contract that he is acting as a sub on. They didn't ask about all the other ones. And didn't hike the premium.





Kinport said:


> Your probably right, I saw this line and it made me think they were talking about his current route


Sorry for the delayed response, I'm sure some context will help.

First off, I'm sure in saying this I will never be allowed to sit at the table with the cool kids, but here goes; for all intensive purposes I'm a sub for all my customers, including when working directly for the property owner/manager.

I have 4 main customers, including this last one added this year that prompted the questions from my insurance, the others have been customers since 2014 and 2017. 2 of these customers (first and last) are property maintenance companies, where I work as one of many subs, while the other 2 I work direct for the business.

With all customers, I carry no burden of responsibility for slips ----- I am at the beckon call of my customer, they decide when there is enough snow to push, when they'd prefer it done, and whether or not they want chips spread.

Now they don't often turn me down for too little snow, but it does happen where they simply handle the smaller amounts on their own. I try to be proactive and show up without being summoned, but I still serve at the pleasure of the manager, meaning they are responsible for liability.

So now to hopefully answer your question regarding what happened following the insurance questionnaire, I explained to them in much more detail what I just said above, and that there was no way I was giving them a list of every property, nor being held to a predetermined list of "acceptable" accounts.

Hope this helps,
-Josh


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

JoshA said:


> I try to be proactive and show up without being summoned, but I still serve at the pleasure of the manager, meaning they are responsible for liability.


Not trying to be a cool kid because lord knows my business has holes in it (both figurative and literal).... and I get why you are showing up without being summoned because you want to get the building cleaned up before traffic starts and the building fills up with cars. But are you not opening yourself up to liability by doing so? Or do you show up without being summoned and sit and wait for the PM to ok it?
Worst case Ontario they can claim they never called you, you did the work anyway, someone slipped and fell and it will get tricky once lawyers and insurance gets involved. I know the scenario is improbable but not impossible.


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## JoshA (Dec 12, 2008)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Not trying to be a cool kid because lord knows my business has holes in it (both figurative and literal).... and I get why you are showing up without being summoned because you want to get the building cleaned up before traffic starts and the building fills up with cars. But are you not opening yourself up to liability by doing so? Or do you show up without being summoned and sit and wait for the PM to ok it?
> Worst case Ontario they can claim they never called you, you did the work anyway, someone slipped and fell and it will get tricky once lawyers and insurance gets involved. I know the scenario is improbable but not impossible.


You certainly have a point, and you're probably right.

In my cases, one is an industrial plant site (refinery) that is manned 24/7 by operators, they issue work permits for me, and convey special instructions (ie: sand the road North of the east vaporizer). If I showed up for no reason, obviously they'd send me home.

The other customer I work for directly, where I sometimes come unprovoked, is a small-town hardware/farm/grocery/gas station setup. This property gets no ice mitigation (sanding, chemical) only prevention (snow removal). As a cost savings measure. smaller amounts they don't even push --- or they use their forklift w/blade. Bigger events they utilize me, or if I have time (if it didn't snow 120km away at my other locations) I try to make it in for the smaller dumps.

I definitely do not want to sound argumentative with your point, it's legitimate in 90% of cases. I feel pretty privillaged to have the customer base I do.


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

JoshA said:


> You certainly have a point, and you're probably right.
> 
> In my cases, one is an industrial plant site (refinery) that is manned 24/7 by operators, they issue work permits for me, and convey special instructions (ie: sand the road North of the east vaporizer). If I showed up for no reason, obviously they'd send me home.
> 
> ...


Realistically you are probably more than fine and don't have much to worry about... but we're posting in a thread called 'volatile insurance market'. I think the reason we got here is because the contracts we were signing left us open to unscrupulous individuals who gamed the system. Unfortunately because of that we need to now be very careful. And get this legislation changed.


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## JoshA (Dec 12, 2008)

Fourteen Contracting Inc. said:


> Realistically you are probably more than fine and don't have much to worry about... but we're posting in a thread called 'volatile insurance market'. I think the reason we got here is because the contracts we were signing left us open to unscrupulous individuals who gamed the system. Unfortunately because of that we need to now be very careful. And get this legislation changed.


Yes sir!
My other two customers as mentioned are the property maintenance companies, where I do several Costco's, malls, warehouses, and condominiums/townhouses. As you can see from my first reply with the letter from my insurance, this was not going to go over well, had I not been able to convince them that as a sub, I could not be held responsible for slips. For what it's worth, even my boss (property maintenance company) does not bring us out until instructed by building manager, with an issued PO. How much of this passes off liability I'm not sure, even for myself at my direct-serviced properties. What's to say the managers can't simply say "we left it in the hands of the hired professional, how were we supposed to know it was slippery" if such an event were to occur?


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## Fourteen Contracting Inc. (Jul 5, 2019)

JoshA said:


> Yes sir!
> My other two customers as mentioned are the property maintenance companies, where I do several Costco's, malls, warehouses, and condominiums/townhouses. As you can see from my first reply with the letter from my insurance, this was not going to go over well, had I not been able to convince them that as a sub, I could not be held responsible for slips. For what it's worth, even my boss (property maintenance company) does not bring us out until instructed by building manager, with an issued PO. How much of this passes off liability I'm not sure, even for myself at my direct-serviced properties. What's to say the managers can't simply say "we left it in the hands of the hired professional, how were we supposed to know it was slippery" if such an event were to occur?


Exactly... therefore needs to be specifically written into the contract or waiver. So we can get liability insurance and make a living.


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