# Brandnew concrete sidewalk



## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

I have a account that just replaced sidewalk 21 days ago with another section still no poured as of today. I'm looking for options for ice control products. My normal ice control product is calcium pellets but im worried about damage. The location also does their sidewalks sometimes during operation hours appling there own ice melt product. No ice control is not a option as they are a busy location.So lets hear product suggestions.

I plan on drafting a letter in the am to address my concerns about concrete damage and liablity. I wil also address any additional cost in ice control vs my normal product.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

...........


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Defcon 5;1860189 said:


> ...........


X2….........

We havent had a good hot topic this week.


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## lilweeds (Aug 3, 2007)

Shovel it only, that's the only guarantee with concrete.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

1olddogtwo;1860211 said:


> X2….........
> 
> We havent had a good hot topic this week.


Yea,,,not a new, how to bid thread in hours.


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

fireside;1860138 said:


> I have a account that just replaced sidewalk 21 days ago with another section still no poured as of today. I'm looking for options for ice control products. My normal ice control product is calcium pellets but im worried about damage. The location also does their sidewalks sometimes during operation hours appling there own ice melt product. No ice control is not a option as they are a busy location.So lets hear product suggestions.
> 
> I plan on drafting a letter in the am to address my concerns about concrete damage and liablity. I wil also address any additional cost in ice control vs my normal product.


nuke it , dont look back
forget about the old wives tails 
concrete is made with calcium


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

Citytow;1860220 said:


> nuke it , dont look back
> forget about the old wives tails
> concrete is made with calcium


so using your logic, the human body is full of blood on the inside, just as good on the outside.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

fireside;1860138 said:


> I have a account that just replaced sidewalk 21 days ago with another section still no poured as of today. I'm looking for options for ice control products. My normal ice control product is calcium pellets but im worried about damage. The location also does their sidewalks sometimes during operation hours appling there own ice melt product.* No **ice control is not a option *as they are a busy location.So lets hear product suggestions.
> 
> I plan on drafting a letter in the am to address my concerns about concrete damage and liablity. I wil also address any additional cost in ice control vs my normal product.


I would just use Salt....Don't waste you money on anything else.....Thumbs Up


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

1olddogtwo;1860232 said:


> so using your logic, the human body is full of blood on the inside, just as good on the outside.


Your using Logic when referring to his post.................:laughing:


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

The only time Ive seen concrete pit and crumble is applying too much salt time and time again. I used to sub (wayyyy back) and we did a Lowes and this guy put so much salt down every storm the parking bumpers were basically hollowed out by spring,lol. We use Hero or ROBO melt (can't remember which it is, but a picture of a Capt. America on the bag,lol) and have for years now and zero issues with concrete, even grass for that matter.


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

* freeze / thaw cycle . calcium stays wet in crevices where salt freezes below 20* ? 
fast thawing heaves the crete ?
chalk the scaling up to a hot load or bad batch?
i poured my own sidewalk in late november 2009 and nuked it every storm since . its like new to this day *


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## Phil1747 (Feb 9, 2011)

Citytow;1860220 said:


> nuke it , dont look back
> forget about the old wives tails
> concrete is made with calcium


I work for a concrete company and yes we add liquid calcium to mixes to help them set up quicker if it's cold or rain is pending. some contractors don't like us adding it in from the plant and we bring bags of calcium flake with us and add on site. Short of end-dumping salt on the ground i don't think light saltings will hurt it. i have put salt 1/4 in thick down in areas to avoid a potential call back to sneak in a few hrs of sleep and had nothing happen when i go back in spring.


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

Phil1747;1860421 said:


> I work for a concrete company and yes we add liquid calcium to mixes to help them set up quicker if it's cold or rain is pending. some contractors don't like us adding it in from the plant and we bring bags of calcium flake with us and add on site. Short of end-dumping salt on the ground i don't think light saltings will hurt it. i have put salt 1/4 in thick down in areas to avoid a potential call back to sneak in a few hrs of sleep and had nothing happen when i go back in spring.


thank you .someone knows what they're talking about here .whew

i say nuke it . any problems ? prove it !


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

Just pour hot water on it, it will be fine.....


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

were building a propane flamethrowing prototype as we speak . should be any day soon


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## Jguck25 (Oct 30, 2009)

Citytow;1860453 said:


> were building a propane flamethrowing prototype as we speak . should be any day soon


Beleive it or not I have seen this. It was normal propane tank for a grill made into a backpack and they were doing walks with it. It was very interesting and cool but I just figured the hot water would turn to ice in no time


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

Jguck25;1860458 said:


> Beleive it or not I have seen this. It was normal propane tank for a grill made into a backpack and they were doing walks with it. It was very interesting and cool but I just figured the hot water would turn to ice in no time


calcium should remedy that


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## 98Chevy2500 (Nov 27, 2005)

Defcon 5;1860254 said:


> I would just use Salt....Don't waste you money on anything else.....Thumbs Up


X2...Beat me to it!


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## Phil1747 (Feb 9, 2011)

Citytow;1860453 said:



> were building a propane flamethrowing prototype as we speak . should be any day soon


on that note... the best beer invention i thought of in college. I was getting sick of using gas to start bonfires and the price of gas. After we had an inland hurricane go through southern illinois a few years ago and had more down trees than we knew what to do with. Take a propane grill regulator and a 5ft piece of 1/2 in black gas pipe. 
Cap the pipe and drill a few (5-7) small holes 3 in apart with the other end adapt it to the regulator, Turn gas on and light and put in the bottom of the pile, open beer and wait. PULLOUT when the fire is started. I know what everyone is thinking but the new regulators have back flow valves built in and it is actually as safe as a big bon fire with beer and propayne goes. better than the old method of dumping gas on the pile, little gas on a 2X lighting and throwing it on the pile.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Citytow;1860382 said:


> * freeze / thaw cycle . calcium stays wet in crevices where salt freezes below 20* ?
> fast thawing heaves the crete ?
> chalk the scaling up to a hot load or bad batch?
> i poured my own sidewalk in late november 2009 and nuked it every storm since . its like new to this day *


First off Concrete is Porous.....That's where some of issues could arise...The crevices that you call them are called control joints.....

Scaling is also caused by over finishing concrete...There could be many reasons why concrete fails and Salt will not be one of them.....

Stick to Assphault and leave the concrete commentary to the Big Boys....:laughing:


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Someone better tell the guy with the new salt bin thread to get his salt off that new concrete pad.
My salt storage is on concrete as well and still holding up after 12 years, go figure.


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

If you saw the crew doing the work you would fully understand my concerns. There truck is a late 80's S10 Blazer.I can't belive how it drives down the road with that much rot. A blazer towing a 16' or so trailer did in mention they are also the landscaper!!! So far they have been doing the job for over 4 months and it no were near done. After they were caught dumping the concrete into the river they loaded all the rest on to the trailer using a hand truck. It was my fun for months watching the operation


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## peteo1 (Jul 4, 2011)

Defcon 5;1860879 said:


> First off Concrete is Porous.....That's where some of issues could arise...The crevices that you call them are called control joints.....
> 
> Scaling is also caused by over finishing concrete...There could be many reasons why concrete fails and Salt will not be one of them.....
> 
> Stick to Assphault and leave the concrete commentary to the Big Boys....:laughing:


What about this "hungry concrete" I keep hearing about? Thumbs Up


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Citytow;1860220 said:
 

> nuke it , dont look back
> forget about the old wives tails
> concrete is made with calcium


Actually, if I had to guess, I'd say that 98-99% of concrete does not contain calcium.

That said, CC or rock salt, or a combo of the 2, is likely the best bet, although the fact that it's still not poured at this point of the season would concern me. Not sure if the NE is experiencing the same cement shortage's and rationing we're seeing here in the Midwest, but if that's the case, it may not get poured before the snow flies, so you may not have much to worry about after all.......


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

http://www.prosoco.com/Products/2ba1bad2-aa85-4b4f-ab21-939eaa5eebed


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Concrete advantages can be achieved when two per cent of calcium chloride is added to 100 pounds of cement, the rate recommended by the cement industry.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

jomama45;1861068 said:


> Actually, if I had to guess, I'd say that 98-99% of concrete does not contain calcium.
> 
> That said, CC or rock salt, or a combo of the 2, is likely the best bet, although the fact that it's still not poured at this point of the season would concern me. Not sure if the NE is experiencing the same cement shortage's and rationing we're seeing here in the Midwest, but if that's the case, it may not get poured before the snow flies, so you may not have much to worry about after all.......


Cement shortage's here in Michigan have gotten pretty bad......The redi-mix company I am employed by is half owned by a Large Cement producer....They wont even give us enough cement to run at full power...On a normal day we require aboot 1500 tons to run at full steam....They will only give us about 700 tons a day.....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I thought cement and concrete were the same.


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;1861570 said:


> I thought cement and concrete were the same.


Thumbs Up
Must be snow season


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1861570 said:


> I thought cement and concrete were the same.


Go back to your man crush with Express............


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

terrapro;1861576 said:


> Thumbs Up
> Must be snow season


Wut???

Lol


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5;1861607 said:


> Go back to your man crush with Express............


Jealous???


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1861628 said:


> Jealous???


Lord No.........I have met the both of you and you make a Lovely Couple....


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Defcon 5;1861560 said:


> Cement shortage's here in Michigan have gotten pretty bad......The redi-mix company I am employed by is half owned by a Large Cement producer....They wont even give us enough cement to run at full power...On a normal day we require aboot 1500 tons to run at full steam....They will only give us about 700 tons a day.....


I was going to message you a while back to see how bad it was your way, I know you're involved in moving huge amounts of Portland. I'm surprised it's as bad as it is on your side of the lake, I always thought alot of the Portland we use originates in the "mitten"?*

*Everyone in their right mind knows Wisconsin looks much more like a mitten than MI, but if that's all you have to hang your hat on, we're willing to give it to you in good faith......


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## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

Mr.Markus;1860896 said:


> Someone better tell the guy with the new salt bin thread to get his salt off that new concrete pad.
> My salt storage is on concrete as well and still holding up after 12 years, go figure.


Not going to claim I am an every day concrete guy or anything, but the difference there is that the salt for the most part remains in its solid form in your bin. Problems can happen once it gets into its liquid form.

I've seen lots of new concrete get damaged in the first winter. Ironically its where the vehicles get parked to drip off after coating themselves with road brine/salt. Had a new house I built and the tenant destroyed the concrete sidewalk and front step (wood) by over applying the salt, and no damage anywhere else. So I think there is some merit to over salting causing the potential for damage, especially on new concrete.


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## edgeair (Sep 26, 2010)

fireside;1860138 said:


> I have a account that just replaced sidewalk 21 days ago with another section still no poured as of today. I'm looking for options for ice control products. My normal ice control product is calcium pellets but im worried about damage. The location also does their sidewalks sometimes during operation hours appling there own ice melt product. No ice control is not a option as they are a busy location.So lets hear product suggestions.
> 
> I plan on drafting a letter in the am to address my concerns about concrete damage and liablity. I wil also address any additional cost in ice control vs my normal product.


You are right to have some concerns. Concrete does not reach its full theoretical strength until 28 days (under ideal WARM conditions). I think if they delay it much longer, there is a greater risk for spalling should they not keep it warm for at least the first few days.

I have seen several cases on houses I have built where you see damage to the surface of relatively new concrete just in the areas where vehicles park and drip off or on the sidewalk where over application occurs. Add in that the concrete will not reach its full strength likely until next year in your case and you should be very careful with the ice melt (whatever product you use).


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## Citytow (Sep 21, 2014)

Defcon 5;1860879 said:


> First off Concrete is Porous.....That's where some of issues could arise...The crevices that you call them are called control joints.....
> 
> Scaling is also caused by over finishing concrete...There could be many reasons why concrete fails and Salt will not be one of them.....
> 
> Stick to Assphault and leave the concrete commentary to the Big Boys....:laughing:


the internet is ALWAYS right ........lmfbo

PAVE THE PLANET !


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5;1861560 said:


> Cement shortage's here in Michigan have gotten pretty bad......The redi-mix company I am employed by is half owned by a Large Cement producer....They wont even give us enough cement to run at full power...On a normal day we require aboot 1500 tons to run at full steam....They will only give us about 700 tons a day.....


Curious, what is causing the shortage of cement?


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## fireside (Mar 1, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;1861570 said:


> I thought cement and concrete were the same.


They are diffrent but the same cement is the dry mix product(no water). Concrete is the finshed product that cement mix makes with water added than cures.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Mark Oomkes;1862003 said:


> Curious, what is causing the shortage of cement?


Demand is one reason....

But the main reason atleast in Michigan is 10 years ago there were 5 cement producing plants in Michigan...Now were down to 3 cement producing plants...St Marys has 2. Charlevoix and Detoilet...Lafarge has one in Alpena...Not enough production is what it boils down to....


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## rrplowing (Jan 16, 2011)

IceBGone Magic. It is non corrosive. The EPA recognizes it for safe chemistry


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

That took longer than expected.


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## john r (Jan 3, 2001)

Will 1500lb resist salt the same way 4000 will?


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## Schoenberg Salt (Sep 30, 2011)

We get this question a lot, the only product which manufacturers will say is OK for new concrete is CMA (calcium magnesium acetate), and that's at 30 days. Most producers of Rock and calcium label the bags for use on concrete 1+ years. CMA is expensive, so like $80-$90/bag, it's under $20 its a blend of mostly rock salt. If u choose something else I would get it in writing that the site has OK'd it as just this past year we had a customer whom used rock on new concrete against our advice and had to pay to replace the sidewalk.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Schoenberg Salt;1864380 said:


> We get this question a lot, the only product which manufacturers will say is OK for new concrete is CMA (calcium magnesium acetate), and that's at 30 days. Most producers of Rock and calcium label the bags for use on concrete 1+ years. CMA is expensive, so like $80-$90/bag, it's under $20 its a blend of mostly rock salt. If u choose something else I would get it in writing that the site has OK'd it as just this past year we had a customer whom used rock on new concrete against our advice and had to pay to replace the sidewalk.


Interesting.

I had a friendly competitor ask me to price his church parking lot for liquids, because they just replaced the asphalt with concrete this summer. I spoke with him before giving him a price, mainly who the installer was and where they got the concrete from. The contractor is well established with a good reputation. The supplier is even more well established and has been a customer of ours for over 40 years.

So he called the supplier, I believe he spoke with the quality control guy. He told him to use salt. Plain, ole rock salt.


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## Schoenberg Salt (Sep 30, 2011)

Rock Salt can work and not damage the concrete, but as I said, the manufacturers explicitly say 1+years before using Chlorides. This means the onus falls on you if something goes wrong... unless you can get the concrete company to sign off on it. A big part of this industry is mitigating risk, keep that in mind.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Schoenberg Salt;1864739 said:


> Rock Salt can work and not damage the concrete, but as I said, the manufacturers explicitly say 1+years before using Chlorides. This means the onus falls on you if something goes wrong... unless you can get the concrete company to sign off on it. A big part of this industry is mitigating risk, keep that in mind.


I understand that, all I am pointing out is that not ALL manufacturers tell you to wait a year.

It isn't like muni's wait a year for bridges, roads, curbs, sidewalks, etc. before applying salt. And more and more roads are being built with concrete.

Almost everyone knows that properly batched, installed, and finished concrete will not spall or be damaged by rock salt.


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## Schoenberg Salt (Sep 30, 2011)

*Vendors who Approve Rock Salt Usage*



Mark Oomkes;1864749 said:


> I understand that, all I am pointing out is that not ALL manufacturers tell you to wait a year.
> 
> It isn't like muni's wait a year for bridges, roads, curbs, sidewalks, etc. before applying salt. And more and more roads are being built with concrete.
> 
> Almost everyone knows that properly batched, installed, and finished concrete will not spall or be damaged by rock salt.


I would be interested to see which vendors you find that are willing to put in writing that its OK to use Rock/Calcium/Mag/Blends on concrete less then 1 year old. We work with almost Every Major Producer in North America... none have been willing to do so for me... only my CMA producer has done so.


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## 1olddogtwo (Aug 6, 2007)

1olddogtwo;1860211 said:


> X2….........
> 
> We havent had a good hot topic this week.


I see its warming up in here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Schoenberg Salt;1864769 said:


> I would be interested to see which vendors you find that are willing to put in writing that its OK to use Rock/Calcium/Mag/Blends on concrete less then 1 year old. We work with almost Every Major Producer in North America... none have been willing to do so for me... only my CMA producer has done so.


I'm talking about the concrete vendor, not the salt suppliers.

I don't really care what they say.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;1861570 said:


> I thought cement and concrete were the same.


No, it's a north and south term.
Northerns....concrete
Southerners...cement, with the south twang.

Bahahaha


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

dieselss;1864818 said:


> No, it's a north and south term.
> Northerns....concrete
> Southerners...cement, with the south twang.
> 
> Bahahaha


I see, like metric salt vs imperial salt.


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## dieselss (Jan 3, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;1864833 said:


> I see, like metric salt vs imperial salt.


Exactly ,,now your making sense!


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## SHAWZER (Feb 29, 2012)

Our metric salt is slightly bigger , so it works good . :laughing:


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Schoenberg Salt;1864769 said:


> I would be interested to see which vendors you find that are willing to put in writing that its OK to use Rock/Calcium/Mag/Blends on concrete less then 1 year old. We work with almost Every Major Producer in North America... none have been willing to do so for me... only my CMA producer has done so.


Salt supplier is trying to cover their rear end......That's why they say that...Plain and simple.......

So....What your saying is...The stretch of I96 in Detroit that was layed down aboot 5 months ago wont be getting any salt???....All you salt suppliers need to crawl back down in the Price gouging holes you came out of....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Schoenberg Salt;1864769 said:


> I would be interested to see which vendors you find that are willing to put in writing that its OK to use Rock/Calcium/Mag/Blends on concrete less then 1 year old. We work with almost Every Major Producer in North America... none have been willing to do so for me... only my CMA producer has done so.


http://grgravel.com

Since 1920.

I'll go with what they say over a salt guy doing a CYA.


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## 98Chevy2500 (Nov 27, 2005)

Salt it heavy and get it dry before nightfall.....easy and simple!


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## KAM2009 (Apr 11, 2013)

Is it too late to install #radiantheat to manage it?


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