# Hiring too many employees.



## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

This is a little off topic, but I could see the same scenario in snow removal.

Had a little get together at the house with a buddy of mine who I used to work with. About a year ago he decided he wanted to venture out on his own and become my competition. Anyway, we were just bullchitting around and he asked how I was doing with my employees. He has the same complaints I do about the guys to pick from, none are worth a damn.

Well the more we talked I found out he had 8 guys on his crew (we both are deck contractors). He basically hired twice the number of guys he needs, so that way when one or two don't show or if one is just terrible he can make up for it with numbers. To me this is a BAD way to do business, and I honestly don't know how he does it on the overhead and job costs side of things. Maybe he thought he'd have more work and would run two crews, but he made it sound like he planned on having one big crew.

I currently have 2 plus myself. Sometimes I need another, but we get by. I can't help but wonder how many man hours are wasted because guys are tripping over themselves. He was telling me he usually is only booked a job or 2 ahead because he gets them done before he lands many jobs. I am a bit worried he is going to sink with that kind of business model, and no one wants to see a friend not succeed.

I was wondering how many others out there use that same way of thinking. Hire more guys than you need, but get jobs done faster because of man power. What happens when you lose a bid you thought you'd get? Do things really get done faster, or are their just too many cooks in the kitchen? Thoughts? I know I still have a lot to learn, but just from my numbers alone, hiring a few more guys would have to really bring in more total sales to make up for their added costs.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

One day I'll learn how to make my threads/posts short and to the point. Until then, my apologies for all the reading.:hammerhead:


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I've never had a deck building business. Although I have built many decks as a carpenter. To me, it's the same as framing a house. Three people, or four max. After that you're just tripping all over everybody else's hoses and cords. This is a deck I built on my house about three years ago. Three of us knocked it out in three days. Could have been quicker if we used traditional spindles that didn't require all of the drilling.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> I've never had a deck building business. Although I have built many decks as a carpenter. To me, it's the same as framing a house. Three people, or four max. After that you're just tripping all over everybody else's hoses and cords. This is a deck I built on my house about three years ago. Three of us knocked it out in three days. Could have been quicker if we used traditional spindles that didn't require all of the drilling.
> 
> View attachment 171919


Picture didn't show, I'd like to see it.

Although we both build decks, I figured it could be done/seen in other businesses (like you mentioned with framing). Unless he is doing much better than I am, which is possible, I just don't see how it's done from a number standpoint (ie gross sales needed per employee). I would think insurance alone would be eating him alive.

He doesn't like to be told he's wrong or talk about his numbers, so this is based on my costs. Maybe it's fine, as long as he can stay busy. Maybe I'm wrong and need to get some more help.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

I was editing it to add an additional picture. Maybe if you click on it again they will show up. They show up on my end. Anyway, I'm in agreement with you. The workman's comp and disability would eat me alive. I don't see any sense in hiring employees that you don't need. If I'm building a deck and one guy doesn't show up it's not a big deal our work just became a little slower. I'm not hiring 25-30% more employees that I need. Makes no financial sense to me.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

I always overstaff when i can but i have a different business than most of you. Were in the Concessions business and id rather pay the extra people for 10 hours even tho we may only need them for 2. We usually have a small window to pump out product and he faster we get it out the more money we can bring in. It would be nice to grow the help for only 2 hours when needed but we are usually out of state and we travel together.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

What type of concessions? I'm curious.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

JustJeff said:


> What type of concessions? I'm curious.


Food. We travel doing outdoor festivals/concerts in the northeast. Well set up a combination of food tents and snack carts(lemonade, pretzels, smoothies, funnel cakes etc). I wish when we started i kept track of every performer that was at one of our events. Would be a pretty big list after 10 years


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JMO I don't think anybody should over staff. You should know man hrs etc when putting your bid together. I have noticed over the years your good guys will stand straight up if you put to many guys in there way. Actually pisses them off. If I got to be there I'm going to work and don't want no slugs in my way. The other side of the coin I know a roofer that over staffs and seems to be doing okay been around a long time and is living okay. No junk trucks and equipment.

I worry about man hrs as well as materials. Either one of them could affect your personal earnings in the end. There is always somebody that would rather be there than you and would be more than happy to have a better bid than you around here anyways. This is a competitive world.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

JustJeff said:


> I was editing it to add an additional picture. Maybe if you click on it again they will show up. They show up on my end. Anyway, I'm in agreement with you. The workman's comp and disability would eat me alive. I don't see any sense in hiring employees that you don't need. If I'm building a deck and one guy doesn't show up it's not a big deal our work just became a little slower. I'm not hiring 25-30% more employees that I need. Makes no financial sense to me.


Yeah, that must have been it. They're showing up now. Looks good. Nice and big too!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Sounds like bad hiring & management. 

Unless these are huge decks, I can't imagine 8 people on a deck. And I know little to nothing aboot construction.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

I would think over four guys you would be tripping over each other. Or someone is just standing there.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

I have found that the fewer men you have on a job, the higher your production ratio rate on the job (to a point)

It is very common when I put multiple men on a job, my hours compared to work preformed ratio takes a tank. Seems often that the same job can be preformed by one man in 12 hrs that would take 2 men a total of 16 hrs to complete. (in my line of work)

The only reason that I load a 1 man project with more than 1 man is to cover more jobs in the same extended time frame. It allows you to get more total jobs completed, but typically you loose the production rate. (due to tripping over each other and grab a$$ games)

I would say that if your mass overall production rate can overcome your billable hour per production hour, it can work. Does not sound like your buddy's problem if he does not have multiple jobs waiting though.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

The most efficient crew is a crew of one. 

I see the same thing as Phil in landscape maintenance. Sucks, but on the flip side of the coin it would take days for one individual person to do a lot of what gets done in the spring here. 

It's also extremely shocking to see man hours on 2 vs 3 man mow crews. Unless it's HUGE properties, I don't think we will use more than 2 on a crew. Even for big accounts, it makes more sense to have 2 crews meet at one, then they go their separate ways when finished.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I've debated the 1 man vs 2 or 3 man crews with :terribletoweln Lawnsite ad nauseum.

Dollars per hour are _*ALWAYS*_ higher with a 1 man vs 2 or 3 man. At least mowing.

Blows my mind to see "competitors" pulling up to a job with 3 people, one or two grab mowers, another grabs a trimmer and blower on accounts that I would hesitate to put 2 people on.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I like people till I get to know them...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mr.Markus said:


> I like people till I get to know them...


I guess some Canucks aren't mulch different than some of us Murcans.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

A friendly competitor of mine gave up last year, he was running 3 3 man crews for close to 15 years. I went through some of his accounts with him and we talked numbers. He always kept saying, we were here an hour here 3 hrs. One place was the local diner where I have breakfast and I used to watch his crew pull in and leave 45 min later. I do the place by myself in 40 min and that includes getting coffee. 
It comes down to systems, and people get complacent when you put them in a group. They might very well pick up each others slack but that's how it extends out. The ones picking up slack need a break and so on pretty soon the slack becomes the norm.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm glad others agree. The most I thought about it, the more I started talking myself into wanting to hire more guys. Thinking that maybe we could get jobs done faster and on to the next. If I can stay busy like I am now, then it would be do-able, but I don't want to slow down like last year and leave a bunch of guys hanging. I appreciate the feed back guys.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

It's my opinion you look at what you're sales projections/goals are. You should know how much revenue each guy brings in for you and that should be a starting point to figure oot how many guys you need. For example if you're sales projections/goals are $400-450k/year and each guy generates $125k in revenue then you need 3 guys. I always run lean, people like overtime/more hours and you can always add labor if needed.
You mentioned the other guy has a crew of 8. I agree to many guys on one site is counter productive. Did he happen to say how they're used?
I don't run a construction crew but could he have a crew that does site prep, punches holes along with sets post, another crew that builds the deck and a couple guys doing sealing along with site clean up?


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Our largest concrete contractor in town does this. They are always busy, never run out of work. He needs 40 guys per day, but has 80 on the books during the summer. Because we have the same problems here. Guys never show up. im not quite sure how he handles who gets to work if more than 40 guys show up. 

I couldn't operate like that but it works for him. Around here a typical framing crew is 4 guys. The foreman doing layout, a cut man, the guy running the gun, and a laborer to stock, build headers, etc. like Jeff said any more than that on a crew and it's too much. For decks I would think you could be cut man and do layout, have a skilled guy on the gun and a laborer to stock you and help the other guy. I think your running just right. One more laborer would be nice so you could let the skilled carpenter run the job when needed so you didn't need to be there. 

That's how I like to run. I like three guys. A journeyman, a skilled carpenter, and a laborer. That way I just need to line the guys out in the morning, bring them materials, and check up every once in a while. That way I can focus on securing more work to keep them busy, and keep the tools out of my hands. That's easier said than done. I still haven't found anyone to hire this year so I'm busting out remodels completely by myself right now and it's killing me lol


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Oh as for insurance I don't know if it's the same there but for us out here work comp and Liability are based on wages. Since the concrete guy only pays hourly when guys work, no salary, it makes no difference. 40 guys or 100 it's all the same since you only pay based on wages paid.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

JMHConstruction said:


> I'm glad others agree. The most I thought about it, the more I started talking myself into wanting to hire more guys. Thinking that maybe we could get jobs done faster and on to the next. If I can stay busy like I am now, then it would be do-able, but I don't want to slow down like last year and leave a bunch of guys hanging. I appreciate the feed back guys.


The age old "keepin up with the jones'"

Anyone in business who has not had those type of thoughts is lying. It is just part of "what can I do to keep up with that guy.".. till you look at his books, you never really know if it is actually what it appears to be

Lots of guys have a false image of how "great" their business is actually preforming...

I believe in your case if you can get the jobs, you will need to split crews like buff said to be efficient as it sounds like you already are capped on production ratio.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Sounds like bad hiring & management.
> 
> Unless these are huge decks, I can't imagine 8 people on a deck. And I know little to nothing aboot construction.


You don't have to know about construction, Your a leader and business man. I know little about landscaping, It's all based on the same theory. We all know one thing. I can't be short on the biz end at the end of the day. lmao


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

FredG said:


> You don't have to know about construction, Your a leader and business man. I know little about landscaping, It's all based on the same theory. We all know one thing. I can't be short on the biz end at the end of the day. lmao


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

BUFF said:


> View attachment 171928


Yah but, his ship sank!


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> Yah but, his ship sank!


It ran aground and beached thanks to the courage of the fearless crew.....

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale,
A tale of a fateful trip
That started from this tropic port
Aboard this tiny ship.

The mate was a mighty sailing man,
The skipper brave and sure.
Five passengers set sail that day
For a three hour tour, a three hour tour.

The weather started getting rough,
The tiny ship was tossed,
If not for the courage of the fearless crew
The Minnow would be lost, the Minnow would be lost.

The ship set ground on the shore of this uncharted desert isle
With Gilligan
The Skipper too,
A millionaire and his wife,
A movie star
The professor and Mary Ann,
Here on Gilligan's Isle.


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Randall Ave said:


> Yah but, his ship sank!


I personally would have saved Mary Ann. The hek with the rest of them


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> I personally would have saved Mary Ann. The hek with the rest of them


Oh yeah...... Ginger was high maintenance and only had one purpose and Mrs Howell probably smelt like moth balls.....


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Randall Ave said:


> I personally would have saved Mary Ann. The hek with the rest of them


Not, To short no long limbs. lol


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

FredG said:


> Not, To short no long limbs. lol


Sez the guy dwarfed by a pusher in his avi......


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

BUFF said:


> Sez the guy dwarfed by a pusher in his avi......


I'm 7'' taller than the pusher, As a rule I am attracted to women taller or at least my height. With that said is not hard to accomplish. lmao


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Bet 3/4 of the people on here have no clue what show u r talking about 


BUFF said:


> Oh yeah...... Ginger was high maintenance and only had one purpose and Mrs Howell probably smelt like moth balls.....


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Bet 3/4 of the people on here have no clue what show u r talking about


We had tv land:laugh:


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

JMHConstruction said:


> We had tv land:laugh:


Me too. I've seen all the episodes lol


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Bet 3/4 of the people on here have no clue what show u r talking about


If that's the case I blame it on the parents....


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## Avalanche 2500 (Dec 31, 2015)

BUFF said:


> Oh yeah...... Ginger was high maintenance and only had one purpose and Mrs Howell probably smelt like moth balls.....


But wait, are we taking about Thurston's Wife Lovey!!..... One good thing, AT LEAST IT DID'NT SNOW ON THE ISLAND !!! If it did, He would off picked up the TAB for the snow removal. Seeing as he was A Millionaire LOL. :laugh::laugh:


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

Mary Ann wore Daisy Duke's long before they were invented. Watching the Andy Griffith show right now.


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

Who 
What show


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Randall Ave said:


> Mary Ann wore Daisy Duke's long before they were invented. Watching the Andy Griffith show right now.


Hope Aunt Bee isn't catching your eye.....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Avalanche 2500 said:


> But wait, are we taking about Thurston's Wife Lovey!!..... One good thing, AT LEAST IT DID'NT SNOW ON THE ISLAND !!! If it did, He would off picked up the TAB for the snow removal. Seeing as he was A Millionaire LOL. :laugh::laugh:


If it snow that would just be silly......


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