# Plowing Driveways, Unprofessional?



## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

Alright guys. This post may make some people a little cranky... lol, but all the posts I see on this site about driveways is talking about how people plow them.

I have been in the landscape business for many years, but just started doing snow removal 3 years ago.

I do have some nice commercial accounts, but for driveways I have NEVER used a plow. Ok, well I have once or twice, then thought it looked like crap and did not have the professional look I was looking for

I did not get complaints about the few times I plowed the driveways, it was more that I was just not happy with the way it looked over snowblowing.

So thats how I do them. I have about 12 resi accounts, and 100% of the time they are done with snowblowers. I think they look a lot more perfessional looking when done this way. We do the sidewalks, front step, everything! This this also adds value to our service. 

My largest house has 2 driveways, each about 120' long. They are curved so it would be easier to plow a home like this then most, but I still have my resi crew snow blow it.

Does anyone else agree with me, that it just is a lot more professional to be snowblowing driveways, then to be attempting to backdrag them. 

Or am I on my own on this one?


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## THEGOLDPRO (Jun 18, 2006)

you're on your own. i dont get out of my truck when plowing.


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## jimspro (Oct 9, 2009)

i have been plowing drives for over 20 yrs, and i am pretty anal on how it looks, if you have the right equipment, you can do drives and they will look great, and take a lot less time, therefore you can do more in the same time and make more $$$ isnt that whats its all about?


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

lawnlandscape;842780 said:


> Or am I on my own on this one?


Not sure if you're on your own, but I'M not with you!


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

jimspro;842785 said:


> i have been plowing drives for over 20 yrs, and i am pretty anal on how it looks, if you have the right equipment, you can do drives and they will look great, and take a lot less time, therefore you can do more in the same time and make more $$$ isnt that whats its all about?


umm.. yes.. we all work to make money, but its also about keeping my customers happy and retaining customers, striving for the highest quality, and getting the word of mouth going to get new ones.

And I have yet to see a plowed driveway to look as nice as a blown driveway, done by anyone.


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## THEGOLDPRO (Jun 18, 2006)

i plow like 60 something driveways and have never had someone complaine about how it looks. and i have only lost maybe 3 customers in the last 5 years. one died, one moved, and one was a dead beat,


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

THEGOLDPRO;842794 said:


> i plow like 60 something driveways and have never had someone complaine about how it looks. and i have only lost maybe 3 customers in the last 5 years. one died, one moved, and one was a dead beat,


Yes, ok, but based on your previous post, about how you dont even get out of your truck, then who does the walks? 98% of my customers and elderly, and will not be getting out to do the walks, if they are not able to do the driveways


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

We do 700+ drives and don't get out of the truck. Not shoveling doesn't seem to be affecting our business.


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## THEGOLDPRO (Jun 18, 2006)

the homeowners do the walks, and whatever i cant get with the truck, i get as close the the garage as i can, and move on to the next place, if i got out to shovel every driveway i plow it would take me 10 hours to do em all. 

i tell them straight up i dont shovel,i dont snow blow, ill do my very best for you, and thats all i can do. time is money in plowing.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

I am extremely surprised, as I thought I would be, and the responses so far.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

THEGOLDPRO;842800 said:


> the homeowners do the walks, and whatever i cant get with the truck, i get as close the the garage as i can, and move on to the next place, if i got out to shovel every driveway i plow it would take me 10 hours to do em all.
> 
> i tell them straight up i dont shovel,i dont snow blow, ill do my very best for you, and thats all i can do. time is money in plowing.


Thats when you hire another guy, and increase your rates for those who want full service. Sounds like an easy way to expand your business to me


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

well i tell you what, I AM WITH YOU, we do many residences and we use shovels and blowers, only pull out skidsteers and such when it gets really bad, otherwise it is all blowers


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## Brant'sLawnCare (Jun 29, 2007)

I have 2 or 3 guys in each residential truck so that the truck is never really sitting around other than loading and unloading. Works pretty good for me. You have to offer a full service around here, otherwise people will look elsewhere.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Only had one person complain about my plowing. It was my father in law! He was one of those guys who would setup a survey line ,mark the driveway ,blow it out then take the shovel and round the sides. 

As for everyone else if that's the service you want to provide I hope your getting well paid for it. I'm sure if some dude came in for half the price and just dropped his blade and left ,you know the customer would drop you.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

You're going to snowblow 500' of this? It's my driveway.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

Mick;842863 said:


> You're going to snowblow 500' of this? It's my driveway.


Buck a foot ,each time.payup


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

lawnlandscape;842780 said:


> Alright guys. This post may make some people a little cranky... lol, but all the posts I see on this site about driveways is talking about how people plow them.
> 
> I have been in the landscape business for many years, but just started doing snow removal 3 years ago.
> 
> ...


Great, that's what makes America what it is, the freedom and ability to do as you please and get paid for it.

It doesn't make it unprofessional, it is just another way of doing the work.

What works in your area may or may not work in another area.

On the other hand, once you start talking 100 drives or more per route, get back to us on those snowblowers and your profit.

Sorry, you may not like this, but you have 12 drives, have been plowing for 3 years and now are lecturing on what is and isn't professional. By myself, I have 8X as much experience as you do. If you want, we can ask my father, he has 16X as much experience as you do.

But you know the saying, opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

I agree a snowblower does a better job than a plow. 
That said, I have no complaints about the quality of my plowing. And I can plow about 10 faster than a snowblower can blow payuppayup

As for shoveling... after back surgery 13 years ago I no longer shovel, my customers know this.


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## Jon Geer (Jan 21, 2002)

My legs would get cold. I only get out of my truck for fuel and to relieve myself. I do not think that many clients would pay the price I would charge for snow blowing or shoveling.payup

The warmth of a truck feels great.:yow!:

Just a guy who plows.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

I can agree with you lawnlandscape. IMO a shoveled or snow-blown driveway does look better than a plowed one.

However, doing more in less time is the ultimate goal. for production purposes plowing is the way to go.

I happen to like the look of my driveways after I hand shovel. 

_::::time to duck and weave....incoming!!::::_


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

TCLA;842924 said:


> I can agree with you lawnlandscape. IMO a shoveled or snow-blown driveway does look better than a plowed one.
> 
> However, doing more in less time is the ultimate goal. for production purposes plowing is the way to go.
> 
> ...


Can I hire you to shovel my driveway?

GV, at that rate, I will NOT be hiring you for mine.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes;842928 said:


> Can I hire you to shovel my driveway?


I can give great deals on driveways in South Beach!


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

lawnlandscape;842801 said:


> I am extremely surprised, as I thought I would be, and the responses so far.




I think to describe plowing driveways as UNPROFESSIONAL is somewhere between arrogant and naive. Or the result of jealousy. Most people label snow as a nuisance, and want it gone as quickly and cheaply as possible. Does a blower on asphalt look better than a plow, Of course it does. Is it the most cost effective way to do it? Probably not.

There are different markets for different products/services. There are certainly situations where blowers are the way to go. None of my driveways, roads, or parking lots are them.

If you like the way you do things, and you're satisfied with your profits, then fine. Keep it up.

There's not much sense in coming here and just starting a pissing match.

We need to argue important stuff. Like Ford vs. Chevy or Boss vs. Fisher.


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## KGRlandscapeing (May 2, 2007)

Why in the world would i want to get all cold and wet and keep hurting my back when i could stay in the truck? 120" of snow a year you wont see me blowing any driveways anytime soon.


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

lawnlandscape;842801 said:


> I am extremely surprised, as I thought I would be, and the responses so far.


In what way are you surprised at the responses? I mean, I do agree, that a snowblown driveway often looks better than a plowed one (for whatever that's worth)... but this IS plowsite.com... what type of responses did you expect? 

Now is your chance... you could be the founder of snowblowersite.com


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

lol, well i like this thread myself, i think it is a different perspective, locations, and buisness setups. i have a question for all you plowers that has been bugging me, when you pull the snow off a driveway, what do you do with it? We hand shovel or snow blow all our drives onto lawns, but all the driveways we do are to narrow for you to turn you vehicle to angle and push the snow to the sides, so i figure either you angle your blade enough to get it to the side, or you back drag it into the street. just curious.


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## plowguy43 (Jan 2, 2008)

It would take less than half the time to plow 12 drives than to blow them. I have a neighbor with a very small driveway that blows it each storm. I can plow 6 drives on my road before he is done with his. One time his blower broke a belt at 10pm and he asked if I could clear it for him- I did and it only took 2 passes, when I was done he said "wow that was fast!". I didn't charge him since he works at a big supply store nearby and just get my stuff from him now (building supplies). 

Snow isn't like a lawn that people want to look nice, they want it out of the way so they can get to work/store/out of their home.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

the guys in canada mostly use large tractor mounted snowblowers - they back in drop the pto and pull out blowing all the way uhhm, well you get my point, they can clear a driveway just as fast as a plow truck without the damage to the lawn. this works for them. Using a 30" blower is crazy talk as a business, time is money and most don't have either. I agree there is a niche your filling, but model your biz more like our northern neighbors eh, go big and start the trend south of the northern border. why your at it get black irish to give you some of neiges cool driveway markers.


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## theplowmeister (Nov 14, 2006)

buckwheat_la;843084 said:


> lol, well i like this thread myself, i think it is a different perspective, locations, and buisness setups. i have a question for all you plowers that has been bugging me, when you pull the snow off a driveway, what do you do with it? We hand shovel or snow blow all our drives onto lawns, but all the driveways we do are to narrow for you to turn you vehicle to angle and push the snow to the sides, so i figure either you angle your blade enough to get it to the side, or you back drag it into the street. just curious.


1) I dont Pull the snow off a drive, I push it onto the lawn.
2) I use a Jeep for driveways.
3) Thats why almost all plows are power angle. (to push the snow to the side)
3) Before you ask... If there is no place to PUSH the snow, I dont do it, I tell them to find a Co that uses snowblowers. (Good luck I dont know of any in my area).


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## Scott's (Aug 9, 2008)

Mick;842863 said:


> You're going to snowblow 500' of this? It's my driveway.


I would if you let me hunt them woods


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

theplowmeister;843201 said:


> 1) I dont Pull the snow off a drive, I push it onto the lawn.
> 2) I use a Jeep for driveways.
> 3) Thats why almost all plows are power angle. (to push the snow to the side)
> 3) Before you ask... If there is no place to PUSH the snow, I dont do it, I tell them to find a Co that uses snowblowers. (Good luck I dont know of any in my area).


lol, fair enough, well thanks for the info, now i knowxysport


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Scott's;843296 said:


> I would if you let me hunt them woods


You mean these? See if you can find my house.


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## jimspro (Oct 9, 2009)

send me your e-mail address and i will send you some pic's of the perfect looking drives we do with plows, i have 1 drive i have to use a blower on, but it is small and no where to push snow.not trying to argue with you, but i disagree that a plow cannot do a perfect job.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

Mick;843330 said:


> You mean these? See if you can find my house.


that thar poland spring i see from here


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## PlyGuy (Oct 29, 2009)

lawnlandscape;842793 said:


> umm.. yes.. we all work to make money, but its also about keeping my customers happy and retaining customers, striving for the highest quality, and getting the word of mouth going to get new ones.
> 
> And I have yet to see a plowed driveway to look as nice as a blown driveway, done by anyone.


I'm with you! I like my accounts always looking good. Mowing, trimming, plowing, whatever. Professional and well kept.


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## THEGOLDPRO (Jun 18, 2006)

all easy things to do if you only have 12 accounts.


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## RLM (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm with Jon Geer on this one. People here aren't going to pay the $$$ to have there drive snowblown each trip (20 trip average). We plow a drive in 3-5 minutes, to blow it , with load unload time, etc it would SIGNIFICANTLY increase the cost. Averge drives plowed here are $ 200/season, for $ 2000-3000/season, I'll get my guys to do it.....no clients will go for that.


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## JKMATHIEU (Oct 19, 2009)

lawnlandscape;842780 said:


> Alright guys. This post may make some people a little cranky... lol, but all the posts I see on this site about driveways is talking about how people plow them.
> 
> I have been in the landscape business for many years, but just started doing snow removal 3 years ago.
> 
> ...


Sorry......U R On your own!


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

grandview;842857 said:


> It was my father in law! He was one of those guys who would setup a survey line ,mark the driveway ,blow it out then take the shovel and round the sides.


Would we be brother in laws if our wives were sisters? 
You perfectly described my father in law. 
You should see him hang a picture frame.


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

jimspro;843652 said:


> send me your e-mail address and i will send you some pic's of the perfect looking drives we do with plows, i have 1 drive i have to use a blower on, but it is small and no where to push snow.not trying to argue with you, but i disagree that a plow cannot do a perfect job.


Why not just post them here?


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## flatlander42 (Oct 22, 2008)

I can't say tooo much bad about plowing.....BUT this is what I am gonna use! I have not used it yet, I just got it for this season. This is what I plan on using.wesport


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## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

I'm surprised no one has asked what he charges for snowblowing his 12 resi's.
So I will,whatta ya charge ? Cost for a 4 car drive with 30 ft sidewalk to the front door ?
I'm sure your work is beautiful, its hand snowblown but here as most everywhere people are frugal.
They will not pay what I'd charge for your service.
If you have a niche market,great.
But I know I couldn't live off a 12 resi income.
Lots of competition from guys that do the same as me for same if not lower prices, seasonal flat rate for the season.
If your drive is 120 ft long , backdrag 30ft spin around and push 90 ft, it would be very nice.


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## Grampa Plow (Sep 1, 2008)

THEGOLDPRO;842783 said:


> you're on your own. i dont get out of my truck when plowing.


Ditto here...I tell anyone who asks if we do sidewalks or use snowblowers that my union contracts say I don't have to get out of my truck!


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## Schuley (Jul 22, 2009)

THEGOLDPRO;842783 said:


> you're on your own. i dont get out of my truck when plowing.


I have a company like that by me.....thanks to them my client list grows every year! Because I shovel in front of the garage door, and do the walk up to the house... we do a better job with a skid steer then we can with a truck and plow, faster too!! (no ttrying to bash you....if it works for you, than good job, just saying how it works for me)


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

Grampa Plow;844987 said:


> Ditto here...I tell anyone who asks if we do sidewalks or use snowblowers that my union contracts say I don't have to get out of my truck!


When people ask if we do sidewalks, I tell them "only if you want them 8-1/2 feet wide"


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## Kollerman (Jan 2, 2008)

Brant'sLawnCare;842832 said:


> I have 2 or 3 guys in each residential truck so that the truck is never really sitting around other than loading and unloading. Works pretty good for me. You have to offer a full service around here, otherwise people will look elsewhere.


I agree with this quote. My cousin owns one of the largest landscape companies in our area. He puts about 25 to 30 trucks out when it snows and we were talking last Christmas about just this very topic. He said that when they originally started plowing, he didn't offer to do full service snow removal, but has to now because of the fierce competition around our area. He said that he had many residential customers come back to him and say, "if you don't remove the snow from my sidewalk and front porch this year, I am going to someone else." My cousin said he seriously thought about just saying ok and telling them to go somewhere else, but he couldn't. The industry is so competitive here that he had to do it to keep the business. Now each residential truck has at least 2 guys in it at all times. One guy to plow if they can an another guy to shovel and use the snowblower.

He just looks at me all the time and says, "gotta do what ya gotta do to keep business. I can't afford to lose these accounts."


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## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

Kollerman;845004 said:


> I agree with this quote. My cousin owns one of the largest landscape companies in our area. He puts about 25 to 30 trucks out when it snows and we were talking last Christmas about just this very topic. He said that when they originally started plowing, he didn't offer to do full service snow removal, but has to now because of the fierce competition around our area. He said that he had many residential customers come back to him and say, "if you don't remove the snow from my sidewalk and front porch this year, I am going to someone else." My cousin said he seriously thought about just saying ok and telling them to go somewhere else, but he couldn't. The industry is so competitive here that he had to do it to keep the business. Now each residential truck has at least 2 guys in it at all times. One guy to plow if they can an another guy to shovel and use the snowblower.
> 
> He just looks at me all the time and says, "gotta do what ya gotta do to keep business. I can't afford to lose these accounts."


How many resi's does he do with 25 trucks and 50 men ?


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

Since snowblowingsite.com doesn't exist & snowblowersite.com does but the domain is taken already. I'm here with 100% snow throwers, 4x4 truck, no plow, a few shovels, Earthway spreader for de-icer etc.

The tone of many posters here especially in years past, not so much this season, is that if you do residential only with blowers you look like an uninsured low-baller - working for peanuts - out of work - all about beer money etc. I've seen a number of posters that have been looking for info for snow blowing and they feel like they came to wrong site. Their post count never gets very high. I still think Plowsite needs a snow thrower sub-forum.

I've been reading posts here from more than a few who feel focusing on more residential is where the money is. Commercial bidding is getting really bad - can't make money at these prices etc.

I think using one stage blowers down the pavement will always look better and the driveway isn't scuffed up. If you have one of those squeegee bottom edge plow blades then great. Then there is the plow berm issue.

Toro single blowers with the Quick Shoot are very fast on small drives, you don't need ramps however picking up a 65-75 pound blower in and out of the truck all day long can tire your back out to some degree. If you are dressed for the job correctly you don't get that wet unless the wind blows the discharge snow back at you. You do need up to 5 pairs of warm gloves for days work, Yak Traks for your boots, a 2nd back up jacket, 2nd intermediate layer etc. I really didn't get all that cold with the exception of the 5 degree weather last winter with record snow. It's not all bad, it keeps you in shape. Frankly I'd rather blow snow than mow some of the lawns I do. I only unload the Honda HS1132 on bigger driveways that require longer throws or if snow condition have changed enough to warrant its use. With a track drive Honda I can get down to the pavement.

The initial investment with snow blowers is less and the result will be better for many. A plow on truck if you have room and place to push will always be way faster.

So I ask what is worth more to the customer? 

A nicely blown driveway with a single stage including the front walks and step free of a push off berm. 
Just the driveway cleared and you never get out of the truck for any walks. 
A plow with a squeegee on the bottom of the blade and a few touch ups near the garage and front steps with a single stage blower but there is still a push off berm.


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## Ketch (Feb 11, 2009)

masternate42;844807 said:


> I can't say tooo much bad about plowing.....BUT this is what I am gonna use! I have not used it yet, I just got it for this season. This is what I plan on using.wesport


Looks like a monster - I love the old-time window weights tied on the back!


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## flatlander42 (Oct 22, 2008)

quote-"Looks like a monster - I love the old-time window weights tied on the back!" 

Thanks!
haha, I was not spending the 175.00 BUCS on "walker" weights! so I made a bracket. I will post more in depth in my own thread about all the things I have made instead of bought.....I just can't see spending all the money when a guy can make it soooo easily!


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## Ketch (Feb 11, 2009)

masternate42;845187 said:


> quote-"Looks like a monster - I love the old-time window weights tied on the back!"
> 
> Thanks!
> haha, I was not spending the 175.00 BUCS on "walker" weights! so I made a bracket. I will post more in depth in my own thread about all the things I have made instead of bought.....I just can't see spending all the money when a guy can make it soooo easily!


Random idea - coffee can weights could work well...

Take a 1/2" bolt, superglue a big washer to the head (to keep it in place and suspended, keep reading), put it through a coffee can bottom, super glue the bolt to the bottom (to keep it static & keep the washer & head suspended), making sure your threads stick out at least an inch to 1-1/2" and your bolt head *and *washer are suspended somewhere in the can's void. Drill a 3/4" hole in a piece of plywood or a 2x6 and stick the coffee can on top with the bolt sticking through (this is a temporary support). Fill the can with leftover mortar, concrete - whatever - and let it set. Once it's dry, pluck it out of your support and mount to your rig using the threads sticking out. The washer glued to the top of the bolt will act as an anchor in the concrete, shouldn't go anywhere for a few seasons.

When you get done, you've got a heavy a$$ weight you can bolt to your rig. Make a plate or bar with a few holes evenly spaced, now you've got a weight rack. Media blast the weights and color-coordinate to your rig. Be sure to use at least two coats of quality clear top coat in a rattle can to preserve the finish.

Sounds nuts, but I bet it'd work really well! I'll draw it up if you'd like.


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## flatlander42 (Oct 22, 2008)

nah, no thanks! I like my window weights. I also thought of using concrete in an old anti-freeze jug and doing a similar bolt thing but I had these laying around. Just wait, I will make my own thread about this stuff so this one can kinda return to normal!


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## Ketch (Feb 11, 2009)

Exact Services;845126 said:


> Since snowblowingsite.com doesn't exist & snowblowersite.com does but the domain is taken already. I'm here with 100% snow throwers, 4x4 truck, no plow, a few shovels, Earthway spreader for de-icer etc.
> 
> The tone of many posters here especially in years past, not so much this season, is that if you do residential only with blowers you look like an uninsured low-baller - working for peanuts - out of work - all about beer money etc. I've seen a number of posters that have been looking for info for snow blowing and they feel like they came to wrong site. Their post count never gets very high. I still think Plowsite needs a snow thrower sub-forum.
> 
> ...


Speaking of getting this thread back to normal...

Exact have you ever used one of those electric PowerShovel things from Toro? My girlfriend gave me one and I'm a little leery of it, never even seen one before, don't quite know what to do with it other than use it! I don't think I could effectively utilize it in my field operations, but a couple of my resi thugs are stoked we've got it. I've got an high-capacity inverter and a big cord reel they want to mount on one of the little trucks to try it out... whatcha think?

In keeping with the rest of the thread, we do walkways for some of our customers - but not all of them. We've seen a lot of problems with lazy customers' hoses and sprinklers frozen to walks early in the season, in addition to ill-educated customers fed up with other providers, demanding only rock salt on their walks and drives only to complain about FPD chemical-related surface damage. They don't want NaCl alternative (like CaCl) because they think it costs too much, won't work, bla bla bla. Tell some you don't do walks, they find someone who does.


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

Ketch;845265 said:


> Speaking of getting this thread back to normal...
> 
> Exact have you ever used one of those electric PowerShovel things from Toro? My girlfriend gave me one and I'm a little leery of it, never even seen one before, don't quite know what to do with it other than use it! I don't think I could effectively utilize it in my field operations, but a couple of my resi thugs are stoked we've got it. I've got an high-capacity inverter and a big cord reel they want to mount on one of the little trucks to try it out... whatcha think?
> 
> In keeping with the rest of the thread, we do walkways for some of our customers - but not all of them. We've seen a lot of problems with lazy customers' hoses and sprinklers frozen to walks early in the season, in addition to ill-educated customers fed up with other providers, demanding only rock salt on their walks and drives only to complain about FPD chemical-related surface damage. They don't want NaCl alternative (like CaCl) because they think it costs too much, won't work, bla bla bla. Tell some you don't do walks, they find someone who does.


The retired lady across the street from me has that one but I haven't used it myself. I'll make a point to try it hers out this winter to directly compare it. Might be worth a try if you have a cord reel and inverter you don't have much to loose. They do seem to move a fair amount of snow but the cord struggle issue....not sure? Might want to try it with a light snow before you rig up cord reels. It may be slower than my Toro Powerlite Model # 38172 The electric one seems to throw the snow further than the Powerlite however the cord issue might cost more time overall? Tough call.


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## Ketch (Feb 11, 2009)

Exact Services;845344 said:


> The retired lady across the street from me has that one but I haven't used it myself. I'll make a point to try it hers out this winter to directly compare it. Might be worth a try if you have a cord reel and inverter you don't have much to loose. They do seem to move a fair amount of snow but the cord struggle issue....not sure? Might want to try it with a light snow before you rig up cord reels. It may be slower than my Toro Powerlite Model # 38172 The electric one seems to throw the snow further than the Powerlite however the cord issue might cost more time overall? Tough call.


I dunno, freaks me out a little, always being tethered to the vehicle. Although, doing walks super quick without a blower, not having to mix fuel - it could turn out well... cord reel is 100' or 150', more than enough to sit in the road and use it if you needed to. Gonna do some tests including amperage draw sometime this weekend when the shop's clear. We'll see what the numbers say.


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## LTL (Jan 13, 2008)

Your on your own. If I used a snowblower on the 200+ driveways we have it would take weeks to clear one storm. Just learn to plow with finesse.


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

you must pay your help nothing to justify the cost of snowblowing which takes 4 ever compared to backdragging and plowing...or you charge 100.00 per drive..


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## MahonLawnCare (Nov 18, 2007)

> > > [/QUOTEYour on your own. If I used a snowblower on the 200+ driveways we have it would take weeks to clear one storm. Just learn to plow with finesse.
> 
> 
> your signature says you have 3 plows...which i have..and you do 200 drives with 3 trucks???????? yea right.....quit bull****ting


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

MahonLawnCare;846357 said:


> > your signature says you have 3 plows...which i have..and you do 200 drives with 3 trucks???????? yea right.....quit bull****ting
> 
> 
> We do 700 drives, and I don't have any signature at all...


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

theplowmeister;843201 said:


> 1) I dont Pull the snow off a drive, I push it onto the lawn.
> 2) I use a Jeep for driveways.
> 3) Thats why almost all plows are power angle. (to push the snow to the side)
> 3) Before you ask... If there is no place to PUSH the snow, I dont do it, I tell them to find a Co that uses snowblowers. (Good luck I dont know of any in my area).


Biggest complaint I hear about people plowing onto grass is having damaged lawn every spring.

Those of you that plow onto lawn. Do you return to fix the lawn in the spring?


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

lawnlandscape;846362 said:


> Biggest complaint I hear about people plowing onto grass is having damaged lawn every spring.
> 
> Those of you that plow onto lawn. Do you return to fix the lawn in the spring?


We repair every one that has lawn damage.


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## Ketch (Feb 11, 2009)

MahonLawnCare;846357 said:


> > your signature says you have 3 plows...which i have..and you do 200 drives with 3 trucks???????? yea right.....quit bull****ting
> 
> 
> Don't be such an ass, and show some respect. Have a beer , try again.


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

THEGOLDPRO;844156 said:


> all easy things to do if you only have 12 accounts.


If I had 12 accounts or 1,200 accounts. I would still demand that I keep the same quality.

Most of my prices are the same or more expencive then my competition for my services, but still have been growing by 700% for the past 5 years. Keeping in mind that snow removal accounts for 6% of my sales last year.

I don't believe success comes doing whats easiest or most comfortable for me, but what is truely best for the customer. For this reason, I am sure I will become a bigger an bigger player in snow removal each year.


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## Ketch (Feb 11, 2009)

lawnlandscape;846372 said:


> If I had 12 accounts or 1,200 accounts. I would still demand that I keep the same quality.
> 
> Most of my prices are the same or more expencive then my competition for my services, but still have been growing by 700% for the past 5 years. Keeping in mind that snow removal accounts for 6% of my sales last year.
> 
> I don't believe success comes doing whats easiest or most comfortable for me, but what is truely best for the customer. For this reason, I am sure I will become a bigger an bigger player in snow removal each year.


Now THAT's how it's done! :salute:


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## lawnlandscape (Oct 8, 2009)

BlackIrish;844983 said:


> I'm surprised no one has asked what he charges for snowblowing his 12 resi's.
> So I will,whatta ya charge ? Cost for a 4 car drive with 30 ft sidewalk to the front door ?
> I'm sure your work is beautiful, its hand snowblown but here as most everywhere people are frugal.
> They will not pay what I'd charge for your service.
> ...


I can't live off what I do for snow removal, but again, snow removal accounts for exactly 6% of my yearly sales right now.

4 car garage w/ 30' driveway, 30ft sidewalk to front door & sidewalk along road = $45 per visit. Set rate. Takes 2 guys an average of 15 min to finish. The past 2 years I was getting about 18 visits per year. So in this case it would be $810 for the season for this house + sales tax.

$45 is about exactly my average on these 12 properties. So if we have a lighter winter with only 10 snowfalls, thats $5,400 + ST per season for all 12. $450 billed + ST, billed for each snowfall per home. It takes 2 guys about 4.5 hours to complete them.

I make much less doing homes then bussiness's, but its still well worth it in my opinion, and keep in mind, 10 of these 12 house are also lawn mowing or lawn fertilization customers, or both as well.


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## BlackIrish (Dec 22, 2007)

Like I said b4, you have a very nice niche market.
At your rates I'd have no work.
Up here tractor/blowers rule for resi, but there are at least 14 companies in a small area offering the same service at similar volume pricing.
GL this winter,


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## straymond (Sep 23, 2009)

i definetly agree with you 100% i use a walker mower with a 42" two stage blower , does a heck of a job and it takes me all of maybe 10 minutes 15 max and we also do front stairs and sidewalks tymusic


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## lawnboy11 (Aug 22, 2000)

In my area (densley packed suburbs/urban) nobody plows drives. There is no where to put the snow. It's also illegal to put any snow in the street. Snowblowers are the best way to go. That's what I do- also avg $45 per house 1"-4". Up from there.

It's not easy work, but I can bust out these places in 15 min or less alone. Big snows I work all thru the storm. Painful but profitable.


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## JDiepstra (Sep 15, 2008)

THEGOLDPRO;842783 said:


> you're on your own. i dont get out of my truck when plowing.


X2 on that. I stay in the truck whenever possible. I don't see how plowing a drive can look unprofessional. What I would wonder about is why is my plow guy snowblowing my driveway? I would have to charge WAY more to make it worth my time.


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

JDiepstra;846961 said:


> I don't see how plowing a drive can look unprofessional


Funny you say that. Everytime I see this thread title it irks me. While I appreciate the OPs business, to label the rest of us is inconsiderate. Is it unprofessional to use an automatic transmission? A power salter/sander?
What about a carpenter with power tools?
A cook with an electric mixer?
An engineer with a calculator?

Maybe it's unprofessional to use a snowblower, and the OP should start shoveling...


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## flatlander42 (Oct 22, 2008)

Quote- "Funny you say that. Everytime I see this thread title it irks me. "


I'll make ya read the title again to see my response!! haha wesport


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Huh?


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## flatlander42 (Oct 22, 2008)

Bringing it (the thread) up to the top of the list! just messin with ya :waving:


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

masternate42;846997 said:


> Bringing it (the thread) up to the top of the list! just messin with ya :waving:


Oh, well that's fine. Keeps my blood pressure up.wesport


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## MDSP (Mar 10, 2007)

As long as the drive is clean and the customer has safe access, the customer doesn't care. It's only snow, most hate it and it MELTS IN THE SPRING!! It's not an art contest. IMO


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## nyhardscapepro (Oct 29, 2009)

2COR517;846973 said:


> Everytime I see this thread title it irks me.
> 
> Maybe it's unprofessional to use a snowblower, and the OP should start shoveling...


I only do commercial, but my thoughts exactly!:waving:


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## icudoucme (Dec 3, 2008)

I know I'm a newbie here but I'm gonna put my neck out there anyway.. I think lawnlandscape is right and wrong. There are many snow plowers in my area that drop the plow, back drag and go to the next drive. More often then not they leave the driveways worse off then if they were not to show up. They keep back dragging with a plow that compacts the snow so after 2 lake effect events you have 6" of slippery snow. You lose 1/4 of your driveway cause they only have time to do one pass. 
I feel this is unprofessional. 

There are many out there that do a great job but it seems like they are becoming a rare bread... I only have 20 accounts one commercial and the rest residential. all my residential have been referrals. I do full service, plow the drive shovel the walks and salt. I am able to charge alot (16'x40' with 15' sidewalk $60 per trip under 6" over 6" $80) and people don't mind. I am maxed out as far as customers go and I really don't want anymore but people don't seem to mind paying more. Last year I had a guy call me and I really didn't want to do the driveway and I told him I didn't have the time he insisted I give him a contract price I told him $900 just cause I really didn't want it. He agreed! I ended up giving him my buddy's number and he did it for half the price. 

They can call anybody for 15 bucks but you get what you pay for.. SO in short as in any profession there are unprofessional people and he(lawnlandscape) probably does a heck of alot better job then those, but there are also professional plowers that can do just as well. 

Oh as for looks I think a shoveled or blown driveway looks way better then a plowed one!


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## jimspro (Oct 9, 2009)

if you lift the blade when you push over the grass, should not have much to repair, and speaking or repairs, last year one of my guys were doing a walk from the drive to the door and the snowblower picked up a stone at the edge of the walk and it shot thru the light on the side of the garage, had to replace the light, if only using blowers for drives how many times do something happen like that? Wont happen with a plow!!!


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## snowbizplowing (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't even know where to begin... Adversarial thread but tons of great points and opinions(********) j/k lol... :bluebounc


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## jmac5058 (Sep 28, 2009)

This is a snowplow site not a hand shovel site


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

Another newbie with a pissy attitude. YEAH!!!!!


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## F150dash (Dec 4, 2006)

I started with a snowblower, moved to a 4 wheeler wth a plow then to a snowbear plow now on to a snowdogg md 7'6". There is a niche for everything but I have doubled my business with plowing and time is money. I thinked a plowed drive can look just as good as a snowblown one. I have one guy that works for me and shovels steps and around cars. I tend to think that we do a professional job and if we didn't we would hear about it. I know that in my construction business 80% comes from word of mouth around here. The other problem here is that there aren't alot of paved drives so a blower and gravel don't mix to well, especially if you put a rock through there siding. Mind you then i make money fixing there siding....lol.....but to call plowing unprofessional is just nasty....I have other words but won't use them here......


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## straymond (Sep 23, 2009)

the driveway the are plowed or done with a snowblower will only look as professional as the guy behind the wheel of the plow or snowblower both have their positeve and negative but the operator is the key behind the finished product ( just my opinion )tymusic


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## F150dash (Dec 4, 2006)

straymond;847569 said:


> the driveway the are plowed or done with a snowblower will only look as professional as the guy behind the wheel of the plow or snowblower both have their positeve and negative but the operator is the key behind the finished product ( just my opinion )tymusic


I agree.....


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## SuperdutyShane (Mar 6, 2009)

THEGOLDPRO;842800 said:


> the homeowners do the walks, and whatever i cant get with the truck, i get as close the the garage as i can, and move on to the next place, if i got out to shovel every driveway i plow it would take me 10 hours to do em all.
> 
> i tell them straight up i dont shovel,i dont snow blow, ill do my very best for you, and thats all i can do. time is money in plowing.


Makes perfect sense. I assume that since you arent doing the walks your prices are a little cheaper correct? So, the homeowner sees this and says "Well I dont mind shoveling my walk if its gonna save me so much over the winter as compared to the guys who will do everything."

Maybe that is just how I look at it.


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## flatlander42 (Oct 22, 2008)

hell it better be cheaper....half of the job is getting done. Must be making up for the cheap prices by large volume? I could see how that kinda makes sense.


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## sven_502 (Nov 1, 2008)

I like the guy that said sure I'll shovel your sidewalk if you want it 8 1/2 feet wide lol. To me it seems to make the most sense if you want to offer the in front of the garage door and walkway service, charge a bit extra for these drives and hire somebody to ride along for that. I used to shovel snow for my neighbors company, and theres a few places with about 70 driveways each in them, which get shoveled by hand or with blowers, or a Deere x725 with a 54 inch hydro blade, but once the snow is about a foot deep, all of the above suck. The worst part is they have trucks plowing the street, so why they wouldnt bother grabbing the bulk of the snow off the driveways makes no sense to me. He's been in business for 20 years so I dont question. Seems like a huge waste of labor to me, especially when half the shovelers crap out after 15 hours, and the added expense of towing the crap around with extra trucks, etc.


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## DP Property (Dec 1, 2007)

When a big storm hits I have several large commercial properties and I finish the storm with my residential clients with large windy driveways. I will get out of the truck with a shovel and do the steps and the walkway to the frontdoor , even a little salt on steps or front door pad if needed. No point in your client having a nice driveway and falling and getting hurt at the front door. However If I had to use a snowblower I would never have time for that. If I had to pay a guy to use a snow blower Im not making any money.


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## TSB Group (Nov 3, 2009)

*everyone has their price, and standard*

I like the look of a job done with a snowblower, thats what I have my guys do mine with the blowers I carry in my truck when I stop back in to fill up the coffee.

I do work for people who don't change their light bulbs. I run my plow truck (which I stay in and keep warm, and guard the coffee) and have 2 guys. Each guy has a blower, shovel, ice scraper and salter. My brother runs his truck (no plow) and carries an ATV with a plow, and his guy with a shovel and salt spreader.

We do those 55 and up communities. Works for us, easy work, short drives and they we go prey on a expensive community around the corner and hit people to cheap to hire someone before the snow falls.

Would I brave the cold and ice to snow blow someones driveway because I thought it looked pretty? HELL NO! Though I don't really advertise for people to come take a photo of my job for a Dickens novel after.

To each their own, but I like making my snow money the warm way.


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## breadoflife (Oct 21, 2009)

We offer full service, but i do believe that there is a point which is a fair comprimise between function and form. Generally we try to be on that point but if the customer requests something, then they get it. We go by the whole "The Customer Is Always Right", which can still benefit you because they want it done fast or this way or that, we will do it, and if they are unhappy about it, we are more than happy to explain why it didnt work the way they thought it would or whatever and then be more than happy to charge them to do it right.


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## breadoflife (Oct 21, 2009)

Oh and if we dont have the room to plow to the sides or plow outward from the house, we backdrag then push the snow over the curb off the the side of the driveway, generally in a diagonal direction, has worked very well for us


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

geeze, we must all be doing it wrong. i should post some pictures of our "unprofessional" driveways. I must be putting a gun to peoples heads when I sign'em up for plowing. We do get out to shovel garage doors and walks for some clients, we don't mention it unless they ask for it though. You CANNOT charge for what its worth and still get the job, I'll take on a thousand driveways before I take on 10 driveways I had to snowblow. Our average drive here is 200' long. We have one over 1200' long. We have another that has approximately 20,000 ft^2 of parking area+ driveway, how long would it take you to snow blow that? there are sections you would have to re-blow the snow 3 times just to reach the edge.

if what you're doing works and is profitable, great. keep on truckin. but to call 95% of the people on this board professional for not snowblowing a driveway??? hah. Keep in mind not all driveways are 12' wide and 30' long.


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## mortician79 (Sep 10, 2008)

When I was in high school I had a paper route and a lot of my customers, especially seniors got me to mow their lawns in the summer. Then winter came and they asked me to shovel, I hate shovelling, so my Dad let me use his snowblower. The customers loved it, clean and neat, did around their cars and walkways. Sure it takes a little longer but the old folks loved it and it was easy money for a student.


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## mortician79 (Sep 10, 2008)

One thought, what if you had a farm size tractor with large blower on it, wouldn't that be cool, quick and easiky done with one swipe?


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## 2COR517 (Oct 23, 2008)

mortician79;870765 said:


> One thought, what if you had a farm size tractor with large blower on it, wouldn't that be cool, quick and easiky done with one swipe?


That's going to be quite a blower to clear a driveway in one pass


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## flatlander42 (Oct 22, 2008)

Your "driveways" sound more like a ROAD!!!! :salute:

That is why people think soooooo differently in this arguement/Debate. The defination of "DRIVEWAY" has an amazing amount of variables to be taken into consideration. There is no way I would touch those driveways. Are the ones you listed all hard surface? The largest "DRIVEWAY" I have is about 100' Long and a car width wide.



BSDeality;870759 said:


> geeze, we must all be doing it wrong. i should post some pictures of our "unprofessional" driveways. I must be putting a gun to peoples heads when I sign'em up for plowing. We do get out to shovel garage doors and walks for some clients, we don't mention it unless they ask for it though. You CANNOT charge for what its worth and still get the job, I'll take on a thousand driveways before I take on 10 driveways I had to snowblow. Our average drive here is 200' long. We have one over 1200' long. We have another that has approximately 20,000 ft^2 of parking area+ driveway, how long would it take you to snow blow that? there are sections you would have to re-blow the snow 3 times just to reach the edge.
> 
> if what you're doing works and is profitable, great. keep on truckin. but to call 95% of the people on this board professional for not snowblowing a driveway??? hah. Keep in mind not all driveways are 12' wide and 30' long.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

masternate42;870995 said:


> Your "driveways" sound more like a ROAD!!!! :salute:
> 
> That is why people think soooooo differently in this arguement/Debate. The defination of "DRIVEWAY" has an amazing amount of variables to be taken into consideration. There is no way I would touch those driveways. Are the ones you listed all hard surface? The largest "DRIVEWAY" I have is about 100' Long and a car width wide.


90% are paved. This is why I pointed out that a snowblowing operation model wouldn't work here. every location is different.


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## icudoucme (Dec 3, 2008)

This was posted in another thread by Neige

http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=77069&highlight=snowblower+video


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

icudoucme;871297 said:


> This was posted in another thread by Neige
> 
> http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=77069&highlight=snowblower+video


Looks like a high volume blower and all - but does the operator get out and shovel in front of the garage and the front steps now?....to complete the job?

The backing up time is frankly time I could still be moving snow with a Toro single and it would yield better down to the pavement results. Those size drives are perfect for single stage blowers.

I guess it really gets down to what the customer is willing to pay for? I do wonder what he is charging those customers for not shoveling?

um.... there is also the issue of customers not wanting huge equipment on their property. Exact same issue why some customers prefer smaller WB and stander mower on their lawn vs. bigger ZTR's and riding tractor mowers. In fact Toro uses this approach in promoting their new series of Grandstand commercial mowers. Just a thought.

:waving:


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Exact Services;871425 said:


> Looks like a high volume blower and all - but does the operator get out and shovel in front of the garage and the front steps now?....to complete the job?
> 
> The backing up time is frankly time I could still be moving snow with a Toro single and it would yield better down to the pavement results. Those size drives are perfect for single stage blowers.
> 
> ...


I think Neige may be on a little different level than most of us here, he blows about 2700 res. driveways per snowfall, plus some big commercial lots. I can guarantee you'll be suprised at what he charges. It appears he still makes a decent profit though, as snow is the majority of his income. Do a search of his posts, plenty of good reading. And, I recall him mentioning once that they DO NOT get out to shovel, as his customers are all acustomed to this.

BTW, if you have customers who are concerned about a tractor THAT size on their frozen driveway, I would sway away from them as they are definatly a PITA.


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## cubicinches (Oct 19, 2008)

Exact Services;871425 said:


> The backing up time is frankly time I could still be moving snow with a Toro single


You're joking... right?

The video is 4 minutes long, and he does almost 6 drives... Gimme a break about the backing up time.


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## sven_502 (Nov 1, 2008)

cubicinches;871435 said:


> You're joking... right?
> 
> The video is 4 minutes long, and he does almost 6 drives... Gimme a break about the backing up time.


I'd love to see a video of them having a race, start with 10 houses on each side of the street, tractor 1 side, blower other side, and see who wins. :laughing:


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

jomama45;871431 said:


> I think Neige may be on a little different level than most of us here, he blows about 2700 res. driveways per snowfall, plus some big commercial lots. I can guarantee you'll be suprised at what he charges. It appears he still makes a decent profit though, as snow is the majority of his income. Do a search of his posts, plenty of good reading. And, I recall him mentioning once that they DO NOT get out to shovel, as his customers are all acustomed to this.
> 
> BTW, if you have customers who are concerned about a tractor THAT size on their frozen driveway, I would sway away from them as they are definatly a PITA.


I'll have to check out his posts. I'm always looking to learn and adapt to work smarter and not harder.

I guess a comparison I can think of is if this was lawncare and somebody runs a big 60" or bigger wide area mower but doesn't do any string trimming or edging but mows 8 out f 10 houses on the street in under 15 min and his customer are happy fine with it and they will glady mow the missed spots on their own and near the fence line do their own string trimming etc.

FWIW my approach to lawn care is smaller properties 1/4 acre or less with 21", 36" and 44" mowers and immaculate edging. I do not market to large properties. It requires bigger mowers, bigger trailers, bigger trucks all of which I have NO interest in at this point. Also more capital investment. I did have a few lawn customer who didn't care about immaculate edging and I was replaced by neighbor kids, unemployed neighbor or grandsons at a lower price.

It's just a different approach and business model. :waving:


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## northeastrealty (Nov 9, 2009)

cubicinches;844991 said:


> When people ask if we do sidewalks, I tell them "only if you want them 8-1/2 feet wide"


Lol...good answer cubic inches.... This whole post is nonsense. I plow with great pride everytime it snows. I'm not going to half ass the job becuz that will result in losing customers and bad references, don't we spend enough time looking for customers already????? This guy wants to waste his time playing with toy Craftsmen snowblower let him. My work in my truck speaks for itself and always has whether I'm doing resi's , commercial I'm as anal about perfection as they come. Learned from a guy 20+ years ago, "your work is your name" simple as that. If I had to do all my resi's and commercials with a freaking snowblower and shovel my name would be disgraced cuz I would be exhausted after 5hrs of that crap of loading unloading, gassing up the 1gallon fuel tank, 20 mins warming up in the truck, 5 mins trying to unzip my snowblower special suit to take a leak, and so on. Maybe I am taking this thread to serious, but does this guy really truly think his resi's look better than anything us plow guys do? What a putz . He's been sniffing to much snowblower gas fumes if u ask me.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Exact Services;871572 said:


> I'll have to check out his posts. I'm always looking to learn and adapt to work smarter and not harder.
> 
> I guess a comparison I can think of is if this was lawncare and somebody runs a big 60" or bigger wide area mower but doesn't do any string trimming or edging but mows 8 out f 10 houses on the street in under 15 min and his customer are happy fine with it and they will glady mow the missed spots on their own and near the fence line do their own string trimming etc.
> 
> ...


Different business model is right. How many drives do you do anyways?


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

JD Dave;871649 said:


> Different business model is right. How many drives do you do anyways?


Not yet enough to make this all worth it. Currently right at 11 residential contract customers and 6 we will call you on the big storms. This is my 2nd season doing snow. I didn't have insurance prior to the spring of 2008 so I skipped snow on my first year in the business. In a dense residential area on smaller driveways my capacity is right at 30-35 small driveways and walks solo in under 9-12 hour work day set up on one event per day. If the snow gets over 12" it goes slower. These are all double drives less than 45' most are less than 35'. Roughly 16' - 18' in width. Perfect for my equipment and business model.

Lets just say snow keeps me fit and trim in the off season. No need for a gym membership. 
:waving:


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## integrityman (Feb 23, 2008)

ok- so what snow blower is THE BEST all purpose, tough machine???


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

integrityman;872035 said:


> ok- so what snow blower is THE BEST all purpose, tough machine???


Great question...yet another reason to have a separate sub forum for snow blowers.

Depends on several factors. How far do you need to throw the snow? How big of an area do you need to clear? How much do you want to spend? For my business model my first blowers off the truck is a Toro 421 Quick Shoot single stage. I keep the big Honda 1132 hydro on the truck for traction weight. Load on unload for a fit person is not an issue for a 70- 80# single stage blower. A bigger 2 stage is needed when snow conditions change enough to cause the singles to struggle. Load an unload time with the bigger Honda does add 3-5 min per drive. I have folding light weight aluminum ATV ramps. Fast to deploy and easy to stow when done.

I believe I have the fastest blowers available for smaller drives.


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## d8on27 (Nov 19, 2007)

Last year my wife and I did 50 or so residential drives and walks all with single stage snowblowers. We did about 5.5 an hour on a tight route. When I used to sub from a guy we used a plow and blowers on the walks. In my experience it takes the same amount of time regardless of equipment.

Obviously if you can secure driveway only accounts and not have to get out of the truck you are in great shape and have an advantage with a blade. Alot of my customers are elderly or away alot on biz or snowbirds and wont be home to clear their own walks. I offer "driveway only" and have only had one request in 3 years.

I do think blowers do a cleaner job. There is very little overhead and huge profits available with blowers. Obviously the work is harder and finding and keeping help is more difficult.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

jomama45;871431 said:


> I think Neige may be on a little different level than most of us here, he blows about 2700 res. driveways per snowfall, plus some big commercial lots. I can guarantee you'll be suprised at what he charges. It appears he still makes a decent profit though, as snow is the majority of his income. Do a search of his posts, plenty of good reading. And, I recall him mentioning once that they DO NOT get out to shovel, as his customers are all acustomed to this.
> 
> BTW, if you have customers who are concerned about a tractor THAT size on their frozen driveway, I would sway away from them as they are definatly a PITA.


Yup, what he said.



sven_502;871535 said:


> I'd love to see a video of them having a race, start with 10 houses on each side of the street, tractor 1 side, blower other side, and see who wins. :laughing:


It's faster with a bucket.



integrityman;872035 said:


> ok- so what snow blower is THE BEST all purpose, tough machine???





Exact Services;872083 said:


> Great question...yet another reason to have a separate sub forum for snow blowers.
> 
> Depends on several factors.


Different forum won't make a difference. Same question as which truck is best, which plow is best, which deicer is best, etc, etc, etc.


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

[email protected];872270 said:


> Last year my wife and I did 50 or so residential drives and walks all with single stage snowblowers. We did about 5.5 an hour on a tight route. ....."snip........."


When you run solo - are you doing better than $1 a minute?
:waving:


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## nhpatriot (Dec 9, 2007)

lawnlandscape;846372 said:


> If I had 12 accounts or 1,200 accounts. I would still demand that I keep the same quality.
> 
> Most of my prices are the same or more expencive then my competition for my services, but still have been growing by 700% for the past 5 years. Keeping in mind that snow removal accounts for 6% of my sales last year.
> 
> I don't believe success comes doing whats easiest or most comfortable for me, but what is truely best for the customer. For this reason, I am sure I will become a bigger an bigger player in snow removal each year.


Okay, being a 12 account man, telling us what you would do with 1,200 accounts is unreasonable, for the simple reason that you don't have them.

I am disinclined to believe your numbers regarding your businesses 700% growth for 5 years running? And your statement that your snow removal accounts for EXACTLY 6% of your overall revenue stream. At an average of $45 per storm per drive on 12 accounts, how many events annually are we talking about? It's great to talk a good game, but I don't think your numbers back it up.

Big Hat, No Cattle I say.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

Exact Services;872579 said:


> When you run solo - are you doing better than $1 a minute?
> :waving:


$60/hr for snow removal!? without being a sub? you must be joking. this is a hazard job, you're out in the worst conditions making it safe for OTHER people to go out in. Charge accordingly.



Nhpatriot said:


> I am disinclined to believe your numbers regarding your businesses 700% growth for 5 years running? And your statement that your snow removal accounts for EXACTLY 6% of your overall revenue stream.


 My thoughts exactly. you can make statistics say anything you want when you're sample size is 12. Hell, I had around 718% increase in business in the last two years too. but I went from 11 houses/drives to 90.


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Exact Services;872029 said:


> Not yet enough to make this all worth it. Currently right at 11 residential contract customers and 6 we will call you on the big storms. This is my 2nd season doing snow. I didn't have insurance prior to the spring of 2008 so I skipped snow on my first year in the business. In a dense residential area on smaller driveways my capacity is right at 30-35 small driveways and walks solo in under 9-12 hour work day set up on one event per day. If the snow gets over 12" it goes slower. These are all double drives less than 45' most are less than 35'. Roughly 16' - 18' in width. Perfect for my equipment and business model.
> 
> Lets just say snow keeps me fit and trim in the off season. No need for a gym membership.
> :waving:


Ok I was going to stay out of this, because its really nonsense, but this is ridiculous. You mention how pro you are, yet you mention you only do your customers one event per day. There have been times we have hit our clients 5 times in one day. Never, even in the biggest snow storms will we let more than 6 inches accumulate. What do you do when its snowing 1 inch per hr with 60 mile winds.
You are entitled to your opionions, but where do you get off saying its unprofessional to plow driveways, with only 12 clients. I snowblow 2700 driveways, and I would never say its not professional to plow. Yes you have a business model that may apply to 6 members out of the 60 thousand on this site. Pay attention you may learn something from someone, I know I still do, like its faster with a bucket.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Neige;872927 said:


> Pay attention you may learn something from someone, I know I still do, like its faster with a bucket.


Hmmm.....who did you learn that from?

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV ??? :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

Neige;872927 said:


> Pay attention you may learn something from someone, I know I still do, like its faster with a bucket.


So why do you use snowblowers?


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

JohnnyRoyale;872956 said:


> So why do you use snowblowers?


Well, it's pretty obvious, his business plan is all ascue! :laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## Wayne Volz (Mar 1, 2002)

*Drives*

We did driveways about 25 years ago and decided to go all commercial and larger subdivisions.

However, when we did drives we did plow them. Too slow otherwise. I understand where you are coming from. When we first did driveways and did just a few of them, we used blowers.

Good luck with whatever you do. It's not wrong or right, its what works best for you, your clients and your profits.

Have a great year.


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

Neige;872927 said:


> Ok I was going to stay out of this, because its really nonsense, but this is ridiculous. You mention how pro you are, yet you mention you only do your customers one event per day.
> 
> *Never said I was more PRO than the next guy but......actually a number of my accounts are 2 event per day. My current flyers states one event per day - extra flat rate charge for 2 events. The one competitor I mentioned on another thread has a near monopoly in a retirement community. He has over 100 accounts all closely spaced at $300 for the season - one event per day - snow after 2pm will be removed to following service day except Christmas and New Years no snow removal regardless of how much. I'm really not sure why so many people in that retirement community keep renewing year after year. I have mailed post card and flyer saying 2 event per day and service on ALL holidays. Basically I was too late to the game this year and I was only able to gain 5 accounts in there. Lord willing this will change next winter.  *
> 
> ...


*Last I checked www.snowblowerrespectsite.com was still available. 
This is precisely why the snow blower only business model catches so much flak here on Plowsite. That is why it's called plowsite. I currently have little to no interest in plowing commercial. I have a commercial lawn account but I was told, by the owner, how much they paid for plowing last winter. Their lawn is worth doing but plowing ...no thanks. Instead my sights are set on getting 45+ residential accounts next snow season for snowblowing [tiny driveways with no side walks] in a dense retirement community vs. chasing commercial bids with a plow hanging off my truck with much higher capital expense.

I'm working from behind this snow season [wife topic covered in another thread] - I showed up late and dollar short marketing wise and I've been knocking myself out doing snow flyers these last week or so. If I was regularly doing $400 to $500 solo a day in my lawn business I would not bother with snow. Doing snow is part of my marketing for the growing season. Frankly I'm still in the red doing snow and will probably not show a profit with it until next snow season 2010/2011. I'm far from having it all figured out - that is why I'm here. *

All the Best 
:waving:


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## Outd00r Maint.. (Nov 17, 2009)

we get out of our trucks ..but we do charge for it


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## sven_502 (Nov 1, 2008)

JohnnyRoyale;872956 said:


> So why do you use snowblowers?


After a little while of searching, I'm finally caught up on the bucket joke. http://www.plowsite.com/showthread.php?t=76806&highlight=really+is+faster+with+a+bucket


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

BSDeality;872786 said:


> $60/hr for snow removal!? without being a sub? you must be joking. this is a hazard job, you're out in the worst conditions making it safe for OTHER people to go out in. Charge accordingly. ...snip...."


You are 100% correct - this is part of the reason I was hesitant in wanting to do residential snow again this winter. The $1+ a minute rule is what I try to get during the growing season. Many larger LCO companies in my area are mowing lawns at prices I would not want to touch and I have waaay less overhead. Frankly I'm not sure how they are staying in business.

When you factor in the driving hazards, sleep deprivation, exhaustion from running blowers for over 12 hours at a time and being exposed to the elements and the grief from family members for working on holidays etc. yes it really needs to be higher.


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## SuperdutyShane (Mar 6, 2009)

2COR517;870776 said:


> That's going to be quite a blower to clear a driveway in one pass


Depends, do we live in the city


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

Exact Services;871425 said:


> Looks like a high volume blower and all - but does the operator get out and shovel in front of the garage and the front steps now?....to complete the job?
> No, as can seen by the video. There was not one of those clients that called to say the job was not completed.
> 
> I guess it really gets down to what the customer is willing to pay for? I do wonder what he is charging those customers for not shoveling?
> ...


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

I figured there was some hidden jab to his post. 

Like JD says "Sometimes Paul your better off just ignoring the shovelers"


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

Neige,

Ok so the driveways in the video on a flat rate seasonal for roughly $300? How many total trips per season are made? 

FWIW: I think the original thread starter was just stirring the pot to see what would happen. 


All the best


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

All we are missing now is Scott's to jump in and tell everyone how they are all wrong.


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## buckwheat_la (Oct 11, 2009)

:laughing:Hey Scott's has been pretty good lately, Mark you would never DREAM of stirring the sh!t pot would you! lmao


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## terrapro (Oct 21, 2006)

Exact Services;873243 said:


> Frankly *I'm still in the red* doing snow and will probably not show a profit with it until next snow season 2010/2011. I'm far from having it all figured out - that is why I'm here. [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> All the Best
> :waving:


I would quit. Especially if I only had $4G in equipment and was still in the red from last year.

Good luck to you and yours.


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## nhpatriot (Dec 9, 2007)

*Loaders are for nancy boys!*

You guys are ALL unprofessional, and I mean ALL OF YOU.

I am the only real expert on this whole forum, and that is why I only do my account (that's right, I only handle one, but I could do a billion, if I WANTED to) with a broom, a feather duster, and a hair dryer. I rough out the driveway and walkway with a broom, then detail it with a feather duster, and remove any persistent little crystals with a hair dryer.

Anybody who does it any other way is an amateur and a SCAM ARTIST. There, now you've all been told. Sell all your equipment and be professional like me!


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

nhpatriot;874412 said:


> You guys are ALL unprofessional, and I mean ALL OF YOU.
> 
> I am the only real expert on this whole forum, and that is why I only do my account (that's right, I only handle one, but I could do a billion, if I WANTED to) with a broom, a feather duster, and a hair dryer. I rough out the driveway and walkway with a broom, then detail it with a feather duster, and remove any persistent little crystals with a hair dryer.
> 
> Anybody who does it any other way is an amateur and a SCAM ARTIST. There, now you've all been told. Sell all your equipment and be professional like me!


:laughing:


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## breadoflife (Oct 21, 2009)

nhpatriot;874412 said:


> You guys are ALL unprofessional, and I mean ALL OF YOU.
> 
> I am the only real expert on this whole forum, and that is why I only do my account (that's right, I only handle one, but I could do a billion, if I WANTED to) with a broom, a feather duster, and a hair dryer. I rough out the driveway and walkway with a broom, then detail it with a feather duster, and remove any persistent little crystals with a hair dryer.
> 
> Anybody who does it any other way is an amateur and a SCAM ARTIST. There, now you've all been told. Sell all your equipment and be professional like me!


I literally just about fell over backwards in my chair i was laughing so hard...:laughing::laughing::laughing:


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## nhpatriot (Dec 9, 2007)

*So There!*

Glad to see that there are no more smart alecky remarks....now you can hike up your skirts, throw down your purses, take out your manpons, pop a couple of Midols, and wax up your shovels, to go serve your 2 or 3 accounts the BEST DAMN WAY YOU CAN!

I'll be sobbing into my coffee in my new Duramax along with the rest of the men here on the site, wondering where I went wrong.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Paul, take it easy your going to make him cry.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Exact Services;873839 said:


> Neige,
> 
> Ok so the driveways in the video on a flat rate seasonal for roughly $300? How many total trips per season are made?


About 60-65 IIRC.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

cretebaby;874810 said:


> About 60-65 IIRC.


It really depends on the winter but I think it's in the 40-50 times/season but I will let Neige say for sure.


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## sidthss (Oct 23, 2009)

Im just wondering what you blow the driveways with. If you have a skidsteer with a blower it would seem like a good idea to me, but if you have 3 guys out there with the 20" craftsman blowers, seems like a waste of money.


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## nhpatriot (Dec 9, 2007)

sidthss;874942 said:


> Im just wondering what you blow the driveways with. If you have a skidsteer with a blower it would seem like a good idea to me, but if you have 3 guys out there with the 20" craftsman blowers, seems like a waste of money.


I agree with the usefulness of a skidsteer mounted blower, but who is "you"?

There are lots of useful posts that detail some of Neige's techniques and equipment.

And if you are wondering what one of the small blower enthusiasts runs, look no further than their avatar!

-1 Craftsman 12" Electric Snowblower, Serial #115RS2693-B (not mine, but I know the guy who owns it)

-2 Grain Shovels, new (to me) season of 08/09

-1994 Chevy S10

-Thermos of Coffee

*But I am gonna do all kinds of big time stuff soon, just wait till next year.

It might seem that I am picking on people for being small time, and I am not. I many times miss the days when I was a sole proprietor, and think that there is lots of room in the market for small scale quality operations.

The problem for me is folks arguing on topics that they are not at a scale to have an opinion of. I have grown my business by continuously humbling myself before those who could effectively mentor me. By showing respect others bestowed wisdom upon me that has served me well, and my business has dramatically grown as a result.

The trouble with the little brats who show no respect online is that they still have access to good information on a forum even though they don't deserve it, and it gives them an opportunity that they would never have in the real world that they piss away and squander by quarreling with those that they ought to be paying homage to.

I train in combatives and martial arts too, and I would love to get you little pissants into the dojo to work on your manners. In an environment where you cannot hide behind your keyboard, you learn to respect your betters very quickly. But since I cannot be there with you like a loving Mr. Miagi would, do me a favor: envision me there, your very own committed Sensei, kicking you in the A$$ as hard as I can. Don't worry, it's all out of love....

-


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

/\ /\ /\ /\ Well put, there are plenty here that have been very generous with sharing hard earned knowledge. ALmost makes me want to start over again!


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

JD Dave;874809 said:


> Paul, take it easy your going to make him cry.


My bad, that was harsh for me.



cretebaby;874810 said:


> About 60-65 IIRC.


Thats right on Crete.


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## JohnnyRoyale (Jun 18, 2006)

nhpatriot;875158 said:


> It might seem that I am picking on people for being small time, and I am not. I many times miss the days when I was a sole proprietor, and think that there is lots of room in the market for small scale quality operations.
> 
> The problem for me is folks arguing on topics that they are not at a scale to have an opinion of. I have grown my business by continuously humbling myself before those who could effectively mentor me. By showing respect others bestowed wisdom upon me that has served me well, and my business has dramatically grown as a result.
> 
> The trouble with the little brats who show no respect online is that they still have access to good information on a forum even though they don't deserve it, and it gives them an opportunity that they would never have in the real world that they piss away and squander by quarreling with those that they ought to be paying homage to.


I oftentimes feel the same way. Very well put. Nothing better than a good ol' fashioned a$$ kicking to show someone how much you care.


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

terrapro;873907 said:


> I would quit. Especially if I only had $4G in equipment and was still in the red from last year.
> 
> Good luck to you and yours.


That did occur to me - I have just under $5500 in snow equipment. My Honda 2-stage HS1132 ran me $3k alone. Last winter was my 1st season. We all have to start somewhere and all of use are not so fortunate to make a full return on ones capital snow expense in just 3 months of winter. I'm really bad at quitting and prices for snow seem to be really low here. Call me glutton for punishment but I don't give up easily. March of 2011 is when I will decide if snow is worth doing long term.

I make money during the growing season and with my other business but snow is pretty iffy.

:waving:


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Exact Services;875978 said:


> That did occur to me - I have just under $5500 in snow equipment. My Honda 2-stage HS1132 ran me $3k alone. Last winter was my 1st season. We all have to start somewhere and all of use are not so fortunate to make a full return on ones capital snow expense in just 3 months of winter. * I'm really bad at quitting and prices for snow seem to be really low here. Call me glutton for punishment but I don't give up easily. * March of 2011 is when I will decide if snow is worth doing long term.
> 
> I make money during the growing season and with my other business but snow is pretty iffy.
> 
> :waving:


Exact, kudos for having a good attitude through all of this, but 2 things:

Why do you need 6 different snow blowers if your a 1 man operation? Seems like your making some terrible emotional decisions in your business, & there isn't much room for that in a competive industry as yours.

One of the most important elements of a business plan, which is almost always overlooked by small biz. owners, is an EXIT plan. Let's face it, no one wants to plan they're own "funeral", but it is an ever important part of a business plan. Going 3 winters in the red for such a young business is a big waste of 3 years you will NEVER get back IMO.

Good luck to you.


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## Exact Services (Oct 11, 2008)

jomama45;876009 said:


> Exact, kudos for having a good attitude through all of this, but 2 things:
> 
> Why do you need 6 different snow blowers if your a 1 man operation? Seems like your making some terrible emotional decisions in your business, & there isn't much room for that in a competive industry as yours.
> 
> ...


For starters I would never do snow alone such as "Joes Snow Blowing." I mainly do snow to gain growing season clients. It does work but frankly it's a tough road marketing wise. I cringe every time I see a new poster thinking snow is gold mine - what do I do to get started etc. The insurance is a killer for most but my commercial policy covers snow so their is no extra cost.

The Toro 421QR is the main thrower. 
The Toro 221QR is the back up and it stays at a retired customers garage in my service area for fast retrieval if the need should arise. Worked well last year when the quick shoot 421Q cables froze up on me.

The Honda HS1132 is frankly not as fast as the Toro 421Q for light powder on small driveways but is essential for packed powder and bigger driveways and when conditions get iffy for the bigger singles. I would of been SOL last winter without it. We had crazy snow last winter.

The CCR Powerlite is for the last stage backup for use in my Civic Hatch Back if my other Toyota 4x4's are out of commission and frankly for my wife to use to cover for me if the need should arise.

The new Toro 180 and Honda 520 single are new this year since I'm always looking for a faster and / or better blower. I may sell off 2 blowers this year. They are fairly liquid and the dealers sell out every winter. No worries and it makes for a better tax write off for 2009 since I had a solid year in the lawn biz.

My exit plan for snow is to sell my blowers and take the winters off like many of the smart lawncare companies do. Nothing else really changes. 
:waving:


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