# can you crack the puzzle? MASSIVE ESTIMATE



## snowstarter

Hi Everyone, I was given the opportunity to quote for Landscaping Maintenance And the Snow removal for the site in the picture. Its massive. can anyone share any advice on how to breakdown such a massive site to figure out the man hours ?


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## John_DeereGreen

That doesn't look "massive" to me. Treat it as smaller properties within the property and add your numbers up. 

But before placing the bid, make sure you're capable of handling it.


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## Defcon 5

What's all included in this massive bid...Walks..Salting???...Little better picture might help...You need to figure out how long it will take YOU to do it and maybe we can go from there


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## JustJeff

It doesn't look like there's a lot of plowable area there.


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## snowstarter

lowblue::yow!:


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## snowstarter

snowstarter said:


> Hi Everyone, I was given the opportunity to quote for Landscaping Maintenance And the Snow removal for the site in the picture. Its massive. can anyone share any advice on how to breakdown such a massive site to figure out the man hours ?
> 
> View attachment 173416


i dont even know where to start, this place is an entire block


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## John_DeereGreen

snowstarter said:


> i dont even know where to start, this place is an entire block


You need to move on then. If you don't know where to start in order to bid it, how in gods green earth are you going to manage carrying out the services needed?


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## JustJeff

John_DeereGreen said:


> You need to move on then. If you don't know where to start in order to bid it, how in gods green earth are you going to manage carrying out the services needed?


Very valid point. These properties might not be for you OP.


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## JMHConstruction

What equipment do you have?


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## BossPlow2010

So it's Burnaby, BC you get like 35" of snow it's probably a few acres of plowing 
There's an ass load of sidewalk plus the dumb courtyards that will need to be cleared. 

Have fun


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## ktfbgb

Have to agree with everyone else. That's not very big. If you have to ask, you are in over your head.

But if you insist on bidding this site then you need to know your costs. Then figure out the acreage of plowable surface, and the square footage of the walks. From there you can plug in your production numbers to figure out how long it will take with the equipment you have on hand. You also need to know what service level the customer wants to give an accurate bid.


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## iceyman

Not easy to tell but looks like alot of buildings and trees.. not much plowable space.. walks could be decent size tho


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## snowstarter

JMHConstruction said:


> What equipment do you have?


Just one truck and salt spreader. Planning to sun everything else. I have all the landscaping maintenance equipment imaginable come spring to Maintain the property.


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## snowstarter

iceyman said:


> Not easy to tell but looks like alot of buildings and trees.. not much plowable space.. walks could be decent size tho


Thanks for your help


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## snowstarter

ktfbgb said:


> Have to agree with everyone else. That's not very big. If you have to ask, you are in over your head.
> 
> But if you insist on bidding this site then you need to know your costs. Then figure out the acreage of plowable surface, and the square footage of the walks. From there you can plug in your production numbers to figure out how long it will take with the equipment you have on hand. You also need to know what service level the customer wants to give an accurate bid.


Thanks for your help


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## snowstarter

BossPlow2010 said:


> So it's Burnaby, BC you get like 35" of snow it's probably a few acres of plowing
> There's an ass load of sidewalk plus the dumb courtyards that will need to be cleared.
> 
> Have fun


Thanks for the laugh. Not everywhere in Canada is cold and snowy. In B. C. It's the equivalent of a cool rainy California. It's on the pacific coast, doesn't snow much here in fact some years it doesnt snow at all. Every snowfall usually gets maxed out at 2 inches and there's only a couple per season. Salting is more a necessity because of the rain freezing in winter. There's lots of salting to do


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## snowstarter

JustJeff said:


> Very valid point. These properties might not be for you OP.


Thanks for the advice


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## snowstarter

John_DeereGreen said:


> You need to move on then. If you don't know where to start in order to bid it, how in gods green earth are you going to manage carrying out the services needed?


Thanks for the advice.God does miracles all the time


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## snowstarter

John_DeereGreen said:


> That doesn't look "massive" to me. Treat it as smaller properties within the property and add your numbers up.
> 
> But before placing the bid, make sure you're capable of handling it.


Thanks for the advice. You gave me hope to start the process of estimating regardless the size. It's going to take me probably 2 days to quote it so still contemplating if my time is worth the risk of not getting it.


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## BossPlow2010

snowstarter said:


> Thanks for the laugh. Not everywhere in Canada is cold and snowy. In B. C. It's the equivalent of a cool rainy California. It's on the pacific coast, doesn't snow much here in fact some years it doesnt snow at all. Every snowfall usually gets maxed out at 2 inches and there's only a couple per season. Salting is more a necessity because of the rain freezing in winter. There's lots of salting to do


Glad I made you laugh,
You should bid the property low so you end up plowing it and you can make everyone else laugh.


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## Leland Lawn

After reading through everyone's posts, I hope that you get it as well.

Looks like a lot of work, but you should start by measuring everything.
For commercial properties I price lots by the square foot/acre. For commercial sidewalks I am priced by the linear foot up to 6' wide.

As for salt. Mark up the product you buy (50-100%) and then charge an hourly rate to apply it.


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## ktfbgb

BossPlow2010 said:


> Glad I made you laugh,
> You should bid the property low so you end up plowing it and you can make everyone else laugh.


LMAO.


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## snowstarter

Leland Lawn said:


> After reading through everyone's posts, I hope that you get it as well.
> 
> Looks like a lot of work, but you should start by measuring everything.
> For commercial properties I price lots by the square foot/acre. For commercial sidewalks I am priced by the linear foot up to 6' wide.
> 
> As for salt. Mark up the product you buy (50-100%) and then charge an hourly rate to apply it.


thanks for the advice on the salt upcharge, most business consultants recommend to mark up everything %50 percent at the minimum.


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## ktfbgb

snowstarter said:


> thanks for the advice on the salt upcharge, most business consultants recommend to mark up everything %50 percent at the minimum.


Provided that you get contractor pricing and not retail.


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## JMHConstruction

...uhhh... I'm missing out on some of my lumber markup apparently..damn it.

If you take some of the latter advice, it won't be you having the last laugh. 

If you fully believe your company can handle it, figure put what you need to make to stay afloat, then add your profit. You need to know your numbers through, and we can't help you with that.


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## JustJeff

In all seriousness. You gave us a terrible picture of the properties to help you to begin with. You haven't told us how long you've been doing snow removal, so we know your skill level. And now you tell us that you've only got one truck and spreader. Would this be your only customer? What level of service are you going to give them? 1" trigger, zero tolerance? How many shovelers and snowblowers do you have? You've given us nothing to help you with.


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## ktfbgb

JMHConstruction said:


> ...uhhh... I'm missing out on some of my lumber markup apparently..damn it.
> 
> If you take some of the latter advice, it won't be you having the last laugh.
> 
> If you fully believe your company can handle it, figure put what you need to make to stay afloat, then add your profit. You need to know your numbers through, and we can't help you with that.


Well Construction material markup is 20% in my area. Salt since we dont use much around here, I mark up 400%. I used 200lbs last year lol.


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## Philbilly2

OP-

Ever heard of the expression:

"How do you eat and elephant... one bite at a time" ?


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## BUFF

Philbilly2 said:


> OP-
> 
> Ever heard of the expression:
> 
> "How do you eat and elephant... one bite at a time" ?


And you better plan on it taking some time to do it too


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## Mark Oomkes

snowstarter said:


> Just one truck and salt spreader. Planning to sun everything else. I have all the landscaping maintenance equipment imaginable come spring to Maintain the property.


You're in over your head...probably late to the party...but I've been bizzie.


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## Mark Oomkes

snowstarter said:


> Thanks for the advice.God does miracles all the time


Actually, most believe miracles ended with the Apostolic Age.


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## Mark Oomkes

snowstarter said:


> thanks for the advice on the salt upcharge, most business consultants recommend to mark up everything %50 percent at the minimum.


This keeps getting better all the time.


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## Mark Oomkes

Leland Lawn said:


> For commercial properties I price lots by the square foot/acre.


Why? Are you selling real estate?



Leland Lawn said:


> For commercial sidewalks I am priced by the linear foot up to 6' wide.


More real estate for sale?

We aren't selling linear feet or square feet or acres, we're selling time.



Leland Lawn said:


> Mark up the product you buy (50-100%) and then charge an hourly rate to apply it.


That's a pretty big range, can you narrow it down a little?

My salt is marked up 300%.


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## JMHConstruction

Mark, when are you just going to write your book? I just finished your idols, now it's your turn.


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## John_DeereGreen

JMHConstruction said:


> Mark, when are you just going to write your book? I just finished your idols, now it's your turn.


At least one of the two would be worth reading. And contain real world information.

And be better than plain old fire starter material.


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## ktfbgb

Mark Oomkes said:


> We aren't selling linear feet or square feet or acres, we're selling time.


Bingo! Winner Winner Chicken Dinner. I tell people this all the time. MJD here's the quote of the month for plow magazine.


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## Luther

The problem here is the potential client. He has real vetting issues.


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## John_DeereGreen

TCLA said:


> The problem here is the potential client. He has real vetting issues.


Most places here will let anyone bid on anything. Once the bids come in they vet contractors as they need to.


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## Mark Oomkes

TCLA said:


> The problem here is the potential client. He has real vetting issues.


What could go wrong, Luther?


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## Defcon 5

JMHConstruction said:


> Mark, when are you just going to write your book? I just finished your idols, now it's your turn.


For the Love of things big and small...PLEASE do not inflate his Ego anymore...Just Stop


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## Defcon 5

I'm just blown away that TCLA is becoming an active participant again...It's either the Liquor or he is bored or a combination of both


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> For the Love of things big and small...PLEASE do not inflate his Ego anymore...Just Stop


I was hoping you would co-author it with me...


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was hoping you would co-author it with me...


I'm Busy


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## BossPlow2010

Mark Oomkes said:


> I was hoping you would co-author it with me...


sweet! Can you do a picture book?


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## Luther

Defcon 5 said:


> I'm just blown away that TCLA is becoming an active participant again...It's either the Liquor or he is bored or a combination of both


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## Mark Oomkes

BossPlow2010 said:


> sweet! Can you do a picture book?


Me and a union monkey...what else would it me?


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> That's a pretty big range, can you narrow it down a little?
> 
> My salt is marked up 300%.


I sell my salt for .006 cents a grain.


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## Mark Oomkes

Mark Oomkes said:


> Me and a union monkey...what else would it be?


Fracking autocorrect.


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## LapeerLandscape

Mark Oomkes said:


> Fracking autocorrect.


Thats funny I read it correctly and stopped and had to read it again.


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## Freshwater

The actual plowing and salting here really doesn't look that bad. The hand work looks like a nightmare. How much snow needs to be relocated out of the middle of that. Are there staircases hiding in there? How wide are those walks really, how narrow are the narrowest? The summer equipment list is the easy part, it's always the winter where the problems are.

This is why I never bid from a satellite pic.


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## Mark Oomkes

Freshwater said:


> This is why I never bid from a satellite pic.


I don't even like guesstimating from a satellite pic.


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## Luther

How do you get your measurements? By wheeling it? I hope you don't go to a site, stick your thumb up in the air and say "yeah, that's about 2.5 acres. Should take me about two hours to plow". That would be nuts. 

There's no more efficient or effective way of measuring square footage than with an aerial or satellite pic.


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## Mark Oomkes

LapeerLandscape said:


> Thats funny I read it correctly and stopped and had to read it again.


The last update Droid sent out really screwed up the autocorrect and auto suggestion. I know I typed it in correctly and it still changed it.


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## Mark Oomkes

TCLA said:


> How do you get your measurements? By wheeling it? I hope you don't go to a site, stick your thumb up in the air and say "yeah, that's about 2.5 acres. Should take me about two hours to plow". That would be nuts.
> 
> There's no more efficient or effective way of measuring square footage than with an aerial or satellite pic.


Measurements are online. I just like seeing stuff in person. Too mulch can be missed from overhead\2D.


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## Defcon 5

Mark Oomkes said:


> Measurements are online. I just like seeing stuff in person. Too mulch can be missed from overhead\2D.


Agreed and Understood


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## Mark Oomkes

Defcon 5 said:


> Agreed and Understood


Sure


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## Freshwater

TCLA said:


> How do you get your measurements? By wheeling it? I hope you don't go to a site, stick your thumb up in the air and say "yeah, that's about 2.5 acres. Should take me about two hours to plow". That would be nuts.
> 
> There's no more efficient or effective way of measuring square footage than with an aerial or satellite pic.


I totally agree. Sat pic gives you measurements for a ballpark price, salt usage, etc.
In person tells me how a site will plow. Some sites plow smaller,some larger than they're actual size. As Mark said too much of the BS is missed from a pic.

I met a guy who looked at the sat pic counted how many parking spaces and bid off that... Huh?


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## John_DeereGreen

Freshwater said:


> I met a guy who looked at the sat pic counted how many parking spaces and bid off that... Huh?


I've heard of that before. 100 parking spaces equals about an acre of pavement with drive isles included so I guess...it's not for me though. Id rather measure.

We measure everything on findlotsize and most of the bidding is done that way. Complex properties with lots of sidewalks etc do get a drive by or walk through. But for open retail/medical/industrial I don't see a need to visually see every little thing for snow. Landscape maintenance yes.


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## Mike_PS

I'm thinking this has run its course since the OP hasn't been back...OP, if you want it re-opened, please contact me


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