# This Isn't Snow!



## Jaynen (Jun 28, 2009)

This isn't snow its salt. Our poor earth. City did this to all the streets in the city as well.


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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

I blame the weatherman, excuse me, person.
Or our soft society, that can't handle driving or walking on some frozen precipitation, for the tendancy now to treat early, and treat heavy.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Yup, that’s dried brine alreight, leftover residue after it made the parking lot safe. A white chalky residue that might fend off a very light snow flurry. That would be about it. 

I bet if you swept that entire lot with a fine broom you couldn’t fill a 5 gallon bucket with what you would collect.


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## Jaynen (Jun 28, 2009)

Luther said:


> Yup, that's dried brine alreight, leftover residue after it made the parking lot safe. A white chalky residue that might fend off a very light snow flurry. That would be about it.
> 
> I bet if you swept that entire lot with a fine broom you couldn't fill a 5 gallon bucket with what you would collect.


Tell that to the eco system.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

You ain't done this long enough if you've never messed up and done that. Salting thru 2" of wet snow down to thru a dusting is an art, not something you learn overnight.


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## Jaynen (Jun 28, 2009)

framer1901 said:


> You ain't done this long enough if you've never messed up and done that. Salting thru 2" of wet snow down to thru a dusting is an art, not something you learn overnight.


Why salt through 2 inches of wet snow? I know because it pays more.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

all due to people wanting a fast buck because of their own stupidity....lawyers eat it up


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Jaynen said:


> Tell that to the eco system.


Don't give me that. Post a picture or two of your treated sites, instead of someone else's site and criticize it. I'll guarantee your site will look just like that.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Jaynen said:


> Why salt through 2 inches of wet snow? I know because it pays more.


 It doesn't pay more if it's a per push site. You would push 2 inches of wet snow and then still salt it afterwards. That generates more money than just a salt app


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Salt usage is out of control. I see it all the time in Madison. Nothing is ever done about it.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Jaynen said:


> Tell that to the eco system.


If you do not apply any deicer whatsoever, throw all the stones you want. If you utilize deicers in your business don't be criticizing anyone else's sites but your own.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

WIPensFan said:


> Salt usage is out of control. I see it all the time in Madison. Nothing is ever done about it.


 Not necessarily true. Canada is with their salt criticizing mission. The real problem is the unreasonable standard/ expectation of the client


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Luther said:


> Not necessarily true. Canada is with their salt criticizing mission. The real problem is the unreasonable standard/ expectation of the client


It's absolutely true. I've seen it first hand for years and years. And yes I agree with you on unreasonable expectations of clients.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

It’s a double edge sword. If the expectation reverted back to the 60s 70s and 80s this wouldn’t even be a real industry. There would be little profit and margins, it would be something people would do once in a while in the winter as a hobby or just to stay busy.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Complain all you want, Salt saves lives


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

There is a difference in how it looks as well when we are down to -14 at night.
The colder it gets the worse that residual looks.
I'm not convinced yet that salt is as bad as everyone makes it out to be, it's not a man made product like plastic. It will always be part of the environment long after mankind is gone , and life itself depends on it. It's use can be debated for good and bad but it makes it's way through a system none of us really understand no matter how it is used.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

Jaynen said:


> Why salt through 2 inches of wet snow? I know because it pays more.


Maybe cause timing, God and customer expectations dictate it?

It pays more? No, not at all. I'd much rather get paid to push it, put down 1500# and get paid for a ton (we bill per app, not pound/ton). Instead, a weird thin band of snow brings you 2" when a mile away there's 1/4" - 2500# later you get a black wet parking lot.

There are companies that over do it daily with salt. Whether that's company policy, ethics or lack of training is another story. Spreading the perfect amount of salt is an art form that takes time and care to acquire.

Company policy errors on the side of cover your butt legally once you've been sued. You'll error on the side of pretty lots days later until that time.

Ethics - that's companies that go beyond the covering your butt or more look at it as an open check book. Good customers will see it and make changes.

Training - you know what that is, it takes time and it takes people to absorb it.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

I’m all for less road salt and limiting liability.
Who likes to live in a nanny state?


How will Limited Liability help?
Limited liability is good for business it offers commercial applicators and property owners protection from personal injury and property damage lawsuits, while providing voluntary incentives for the marketplace to support salt-reduction best practices and maintain public safety, something many commercial applicators support.
Limited liability is good for clean water because it reduces the total amount of salt used, particularly reducing the extra ‘make sure’ amounts that do not melt ice, but just pollute. It gets both commercial and public applicators using best practice standards and working toward salt-reduction goals. Many are not aware of the threat that chloride presents to the waters they love. Educating applicators will increase awareness about the proper deicer use including how to hire applicators that use best practices.
What expensive problems will this will prevent?
• Loss of revenue and pleasure from declining fishing and recreation in Minnesota
• Premature aging of infrastructure such as bridges, roads, buildings, landscaping
• Contaminated ground and drinking water - no practical treatment options exist
• Overspending on salt, it’s application and cleanup - wasteful use of resources
What examples do we have?
• Similar legislation in New Hampshire (2013) and Illinois (2016)
• Bill History in Minnesota
o 2016 SF3298: Hawj, Bonoff, Marty and HF2594 Kahn, Erhardt o 2017 HF1016 Hausman


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Luther said:


> Don't give me that. Post a picture or two of your treated sites, instead of someone else's site and criticize it. I'll guarantee your site will look just like that.


Actually 
I've never done that

Because I've got decades of data to read from salt apps elsewhere 
How much is supposed to be applied per acre 
My walls are filled with charts etc 
I feel like I'm trying to translate ancient Egyptian sometimes.

I've not applied enough several times (due to dilution) 
But I've never made a lot white with salt


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> There is a difference in how it looks as well when we are down to -14 at night.
> The colder it gets the worse that residual looks.
> I'm not convinced yet that salt is as bad as everyone makes it out to be, it's not a man made product like plastic. It will always be part of the environment long after mankind is gone , and life itself depends on it. It's use can be debated for good and bad but it makes it's way through a system none of us really understand no matter how it is used.


Well
To break it down simply 
Fresh water, brackish water, salt water 
Different things can live in the different salt content 
When you change that salt content (up or down) the life in that ecosystem will die.

But there is a good amount of salt and even calcium in our "pure" drinking water,,, it's put there deliberately , apparently for "taste"

I never thought calcium was "tastey"
Like Luther said tho 
That whole lot might make 10 pounds of salt if swept up 
If you washed every set of gym shorts in the local gym and strained the salt from sweat you might get that same amount.
It's not the ecosystem ending debacle it looks like


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

tpendagast said:


> But I've never made a lot white with salt


You don't spread much if any salt then. Or you're lying.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

John_DeereGreen said:


> You don't spread much if any salt then. Or you're lying.


I only used magic back in 2003-05
Never used straight salt 
Stopped plowing for several years 
Never used any parking lot deicers when I was in Colorado or Idaho 
Didn't start useing them here in AK until 4 years ago (no one did)
We have plenty deicing to do, but we mainly use more liquid up here 
Stuff costs over $300 a ton (bulk cost) in this neck of the woods and as I was saying , by the time we got into using it, there was a lot of reading, research and others who have gone before to learn from so, no... I don't tend to make mistakes if someone else already made them and I know about them.
No need to reinvent the wheel.

Our snowex unit has a gps unit so you can set it for how much per acre top (not that it's perfect ... or easy to use)

We do more deicing (acres wise) than anyone else in the State so far... and no... we've never made a parking lot white with salt.

Our asphaltis different than yours in the lower 48 tho too (it's inferior) and it's a lot more porous... which makes pre treating almost useless (it all leeches through... no smooth surface to sit on) 
Some parking lots have been seal coated so the act different than the "normal lots"

But everyone up here is using treated salt or liquid ... no one is spreading just straight salt . So the amounts going down at any one time are less than on warmer country too.

All in all , there's so much different here, than where you are, there's a lot of things that can account for why we haven't seen that up here,


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Magic salt doesn’t turn a parking lot white ???...That stuff truly is Magic...They should change the name to incognito salt...


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

#saltlivesmatter


Defcon 5 said:


> Magic salt doesn't turn a parking lot white ???...That stuff truly is Magic...They should change the name to incognito salt...


Hmmm interesting...


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

tpendagast said:


> I only used magic back in 2003-05
> Never used straight salt
> Stopped plowing for several years
> Never used any parking lot deicers when I was in Colorado or Idaho
> ...


So many inaccuracies with this post. And with so many other posts you've put up. A good friend of mine owns Jeffco, the most professional snow and ice management company in Anchorage. And most likely the largest in Anchorage. I've known Jeannie for many years. What's the name of the company you own in Anchorage?


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## Charles (Dec 21, 1999)

You cant win an argument with tpend. He will wear you down until you say ok whatever:laugh:


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

I know. That’s the one thing he’s good at. 

I’m actually giving him the opportunity to ligitimize himself. He’s played so many crazy cards in the past that it might not be possible to do so.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Jaynen said:


> This isn't snow its salt. Our poor earth. City did this to all the streets in the city as well.
> View attachment 188585


 Is this a unusual site in your area? The parking area is shot, seams wide open, spider cracking all over. I'm sure if that was good sealed up blacktop it would not look near is bad.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Charles said:


> You cant win an argument with tpend. He will wear you down until you say ok whatever:laugh:


SKW, :laugh:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

What's the name of the company you own in Anchorage?[/QUOTE] Waiting patiently.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Luther said:


> I know. That's the one thing he's good at.
> 
> I'm actually giving him the opportunity to ligitimize himself. He's played so many crazy cards in the past that it might not be possible to do so.


I'm beginning to think Oomkes BFF Snofarmer moved to Alaska...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> So many inaccuracies with this post. And with so many other posts you've put up. A good friend of mine owns Jeffco, the most professional snow and ice management company in Anchorage. And most likely the largest in Anchorage. I've known Jeannie for many years. What's the name of the company you own in Anchorage?


Uh oh...is the jig up?

Nothing new here, he claimed to be a Marine, then a real Marine mentioned the unit Ted was in didn't exist...then he remembered he was in the army. Not sure how one forgets which branch of the military one serves in...


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

I think the jig was up a while ago


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

One gets tripped up when telling so many fibs.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Luther said:


> One gets tripped up when telling so many fibs.


Seems like a knowledgeable fella....Just one to many yarns spun...


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## extremepusher (Aug 24, 2011)

Im more interested in ordering a Oomkes Yeti .. The salt waste subject is a never ending debate....


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Charles said:


> You cant win an argument with tpend. He will wear you down until you say ok whatever:laugh:


Never say never..... We didn't give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.....


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Defcon 5 said:


> Magic salt doesn't turn a parking lot white ???...That stuff truly is Magic...They should change the name to incognito salt...


It's brown (when it's mixed) 
You end up using less of it than straight salt so no 
It doesn't leave white chalkyness 
Years of using it and that never happened, nor did I see anyone else do it


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Luther said:


> So many inaccuracies with this post. And with so many other posts you've put up. A good friend of mine owns Jeffco, the most professional snow and ice management company in Anchorage. And most likely the largest in Anchorage. I've known Jeannie for many years. What's the name of the company you own in Anchorage?


Luther 
Jeffco isn't the largest 
The only thing they do of size is some Fred Meyers and that's it... that's the extent of her contracts of any size (that's a whole whopping three stores in anchorage, a couple others through out the state that she subs)
It's her and her son and a few employees
Jeffco doesn't do any other sizable work beyond that mentioned, not landscaping, not lawn mowing, nothing.
They don't have the most trucks, the most employees or the most customers so I have no idea where the idea would even come close to them being the largest.
They're not even considered to be the top 5

I work at a-1 I don't own it.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Luther said:


> So many inaccuracies with this post. And with so many other posts you've put up. A good friend of mine owns Jeffco, the most professional snow and ice management company in Anchorage. And most likely the largest in Anchorage. I've known Jeannie for many years. What's the name of the company you own in Anchorage?


What are all the inaccuracies?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Luther said:


> One gets tripped up when telling so many fibs.


Curious what fib?

I've never turned a parking lot white?

Why because I haven't?

I gave a myriad of factors why things may be different.
Mainly because we aren't (and I never have) used straight salt.

And for the record Jeffco uses fisher spreaders with saddle tanks for pre wet so she's using treated salt (which lets them use less material per acre) like I said.
I've never seen them turn a parking lot white either (not that they have that many)


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)




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## jonniesmooth (Dec 5, 2008)

Philbilly2 said:


> View attachment 188662


So when you call someone out on a fib, are you a defibulator?


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

jonniesmooth said:


> So when you call someone out on a fib, are you a defibulator?


Stop it!!

Good one...:clapping:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

jonniesmooth said:


> So when you call someone out on a fib, are you a defibulator?


 Clever, :laugh:


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

alright guys...yes, a few funny ones, but let's try to stay on point please


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Freezing fog here this morning at 6am white chalk on my sites seemed to clear it up nicely, a lot of people scrambling while I get breakfast.


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## WIPensFan (Jan 31, 2009)

Scrambled...Breakfast...Good one!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

So regarding this overapplication...how about the general public adjusts their expectations so we aren't tempted\forced to overapply? 

Had a little bit of ice yesterday, enough to make it slicker than snot. Multiple calls from one customer that we service several of their accounts for because every square inch of parking lot and sidewalks were not 100% bare DURING the event. Seriously...this is ridiculous to expect this. 

Employees were complaining that walks were slippery when there was salt and only salt on them, in the afternoon. It's downright asinine that people think pavement can be ice and snow free 100% of the year. 

So now we will be guilty of turning parking lots and sidewalks white\blue\purple in response to these idiots. Until they start complaining about too much salt anyways. Even our contact said just salt everything even if there is salt laying on the pavement.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Here's a pic from one of the accounts yesterday afternoon...we were instructed to reapply despite this much salt already present.

People were claiming this and other areas were slippery.


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## John_DeereGreen (Jan 2, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Here's a pic from one of the accounts yesterday afternoon...we were instructed to reapply despite this much salt already present.
> 
> People were claiming this and other areas were slippery.
> 
> View attachment 188745


It probably is "slippery" from all the salt under their feet because they keep asking for more salt. Same issue here. Light glaze of ice and accounts want the lots to look like gravel from all the salt. It's nuts.


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Here's a pic from one of the accounts yesterday afternoon...we were instructed to reapply despite this much salt already present.
> 
> People were claiming this and other areas were slippery.
> 
> View attachment 188745


That looks slick as hell... The best ones are the ones that broom it off their entrance then are the first to call about being slippery...


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

My friend has only one account, zero tolerance,(yes real zero tolerance) has 6 pieces of equipment on site and they have 50 tons of salt onsite. Gets a call form the cfo sitting in his 3rd floor office and says "why is there so much snow on the 1/2 mile access road I told you to salt it again! " My friend replies," That's not snow Its salt !" They drive one truck,blade up,up and down the road just to work the salt in! That's why lots are white , crazy expectations.


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## White_Gold11 (Jan 4, 2016)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Here's a pic from one of the accounts yesterday afternoon...we were instructed to reapply despite this much salt already present.
> 
> People were claiming this and other areas were slippery.
> 
> View attachment 188745


The expectation cannot be that the area is dry as well. It is painful how much salt is truly wasted.. But it is a business at the end of the day all you can do is educate them as much as possible. You can't force someone to change there way of thinking..


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

White_Gold11 said:


> The expectation cannot be that the area is dry as well. It is painful how much salt is truly wasted.. But it is a business at the end of the day all you can do is educate them as much as possible. *You can't force someone to change* *there way of thinking*..


Sure you can, it just takes a full frontal lobotomy....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> Sure you can, it just takes a full frontal lobotomy....


Via .50 BMG...


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## leigh (Jan 2, 2009)

White_Gold11 said:


> The expectation cannot be that the area is dry as well. It is painful how much salt is truly wasted.. But it is a business at the end of the day all you can do is educate them as much as possible. You can't force someone to change there way of thinking..





BUFF said:


> Sure you can, it just takes a full frontal lobotomy....


 Or marriage ,I'm just a shell of my former self, opps gotta go,my wife is calling me, she's still mad that I over salted her French fries.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

leigh said:


> Or marriage ,I'm just a shell of my former self, opps gotta go,my wife is calling me, she's still mad that I over salted her French fries.


Cut her oof..... she'll come around


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## Oxmow (Dec 6, 2006)

jonniesmooth said:


> So when you call someone out on a fib, are you a defibulator?


Does that mean they have "fib"romyalgia?


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Here's a pic from one of the accounts yesterday afternoon...we were instructed to reapply despite this much salt already present.
> 
> People were claiming this and other areas were slippery.
> 
> View attachment 188745


 These people are sick, that is well covered. The ambulance chaser would probably pass with that much salt present. Some people would complain if you wheeled them inside with a wheelchair.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

FredG said:


> These people are sick, that is well covered. The ambulance chaser would probably pass with that much salt present. Some people would complain if you wheeled them inside with a wheelchair.


Ironically...this is a walk in front of a hospital.

While we were there, my guy witnessed several slip and falls...all but one was people jaywalking and stepping onto curbs where we don't salt. Had they crossed the street at the salted crosswalks, continued up the salted ramps, they would have been fine.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

FredG said:


> These people are sick, that is well covered. The ambulance chaser would probably pass with that much salt present. Some people would complain if you wheeled them inside with a wheelchair.


That's what it all boils down to Fred...The Lawyers and law suits....I was watching TV yesterday contemplating life...Every other commercial is for a law firm....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> That's what it all boils down to Fred...The Lawyers and law suits....I was watching TV yesterday contemplating life...Every other commercial is for a law firm....


Late night TV is filled with either ads for drugs (legal) or lawyers wanting to help you file a class action suit against this or that company.

Even more ironic is the class action suits are for drugs that had "unintended" consequences that were discovered down the road.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

Do you watch late night tv when your up with the “sniffles” ??


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Defcon 5 said:


> Do you watch late night tv when your up with the "sniffles" ??


Yes...while waiting for my chauffer...


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

back on point please


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

This guy always seems legit to me...


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

I am curious, how much salt per acre (roughly) do you guys that have never had a white parking lot put down? Also, how long does it take to melt off to bare pavement?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JMHConstruction said:


> I am curious, how much salt per acre (roughly) do you guys that have never had a white parking lot put down?


You do realize Santa Claus isn't real, don't you?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> You do realize Santa Claus isn't real, don't you?


It's on the internet. It has to be real


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## ALC-GregH (Nov 26, 2008)

FredG said:


> What's the name of the company you own in Anchorage?


 Waiting patiently. [/QUOTE]
What ever you do, don't hold your breath. Chances are, you'll die from lack of oxygen!


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