# why do people plow so cheap???



## MRUSSELL (Oct 20, 2006)

Just curious and this has been bothering me for some time, recently i have been outbid on a couple of jobs that i had quoted i know that i am not cheap for the services that i offer and i also understand that even though i bid the job doesn't mean i am going to get it, i have just bid 2 huge lots two different businesses and the person that got the bid was exactly half of my price on these jobs. i was not the highest but 3 company's were all around the same figures within $100.00 dollars or so but not half whats wrong with people?? i guess some people lost the common sense factor!!!


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## Lynch & Sons Landscapin (Sep 5, 2006)

*2 Results*

Well, only 2 results can happen. 
1) Their rusted old chevy's break down and the business learns better next year.

2) They beat their head on the dashboard all winter and dont do it again!

Sorry man, that sux!


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## FREDSKI (Sep 16, 2005)

I CAN TELL YOU THIS I KNOW A BUNCH OF GUYS THAT ARE LOSING THERE JOB AT A WAREHOUSE WERE I USE TO WORK MAKING 18 BUCKS HR. I GOT THE HELL OUT OF THERE 2 YEARS AGO. YOU CAN SAY I WASNT STICKING AROUND TO LOSE MY JOB. BUT ANYWAYS THESE GUYS WERE PLOWING PART TIME TO MAKE EXTRA MONEY NOW THEY HAVE TO PLOW AS MUCH AS THEY CAN TO MAKE MONEY THESE ARE THE GUYS THAT SCARE ME AROUND MY AREA. WHO GOING TO BE THE LOW BALLER OF THEM I KNOW A FEW GUYS THAT WILL IN A HEART BEAT.


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## Lynch & Sons Landscapin (Sep 5, 2006)

*Quit Yelling!*

Your giving me a headache!!! :realmad: Quit Yelling!!!:yow!:


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## ksgcapecod (Feb 13, 2006)

I feel for ya. I was underbid by $30.00 on a assisted living complex I plowed last year. The head of maintenance said that there were no complaints about my service from anyone and the person in charge of that particular complex put in a positive recommendation. He apologized and said hope your back next year. He said the company wants to go with the cheapest bid. I guess thats what happens when the higher ups in a different state make the decision. I won't be lowering my bid next year but I will resubmit it. Ken


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## jcesar (Sep 14, 2006)

Some people need leadership, while other are born leaders. I got outbid on a huge contract, for my area, anyways, by a guy that bid 6k less than me. Here is the catch.
My bid .... was for 9k.
He thinks he can do it for 3?
Ok
Let him.
Moral of the story, is I will almost guarentee that he can't and won't do it again.
Sorry to hear of your bad luck. Better Luck with the next ones.


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## procut1 (Jan 21, 2004)

FREDSKI said:


> I CAN TELL YOU THIS I KNOW A BUNCH OF GUYS THAT ARE LOSING THERE JOB AT A WAREHOUSE WERE I USE TO WORK MAKING 18 BUCKS HR. I GOT THE HELL OUT OF THERE 2 YEARS AGO. YOU CAN SAY I WASNT STICKING AROUND TO LOSE MY JOB. BUT ANYWAYS THESE GUYS WERE PLOWING PART TIME TO MAKE EXTRA MONEY NOW THEY HAVE TO PLOW AS MUCH AS THEY CAN TO MAKE MONEY THESE ARE THE GUYS THAT SCARE ME AROUND MY AREA. WHO GOING TO BE THE LOW BALLER OF THEM I KNOW A FEW GUYS THAT WILL IN A HEART BEAT.


Perfect example. Guys have an $18 an hour job. Well they get an account that takes an hour to do. Well they go and charge $50 saying "Hey I almost tripled my pay at my last job"


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

Stupidity....


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## gardenkeeper88 (Dec 22, 2001)

Yea i'm struggling to get my currant customers to $65.00 / hour


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Just hang in there. I've been plowing six years now and kept getting outbid by a big (for the area) construction company. He bid half of my bid for the local PO which irritated me. He had the town account for several years and was bidding driveways cheap so his guys could do them as they plowed town roads. Well, this year he lost the town bid!! Then he let his residential customers know he quit plowing, cause then he couldn't afford to run the equipment and pay the employees without the town contract. So now I'm one of several beneficiaries of his "demise". Now the problem is his old customers are getting "sticker shock". I've talked to a couple now who told me what they'd been charged in the past. But all the "plow guys" around here know each other and we're pretty well close in pricing to each other. There's one who was new last winter and got his start lowballing, but I think he's learned. The difference in pricing usually comes in the distance we have to travel, so we tend to have tight routes. I've even referred a few to other guys. I keep a list of out-of-town plow guys and of course know the locals. I've picked up several this year who told me they wanted me based on reputation - which is nice to hear.

So don't let them get you down. They'll weed themselves out eventually.


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## Rcgm (Dec 17, 2000)

procut1 said:


> Perfect example. Guys have an $18 an hour job. Well they get an account that takes an hour to do. Well they go and charge $50 saying "Hey I almost tripled my pay at my last job"


That is exactly right.They also never figure everything insurance, taxes etc.I have seen it before they come they go.They by a snowblower they now have a snow removal division ad in the paper They go buy a Craftsman lawnmower and a walmart blower now they are a landscaper.I always want alot of snow in the winter because it is my only source of income.But about every 3 years I like a drought in the summer it gets rid of the lowballers in my area because I survive they can't with there 10 accounts and charging a buck 82 to cut a 30 dollar lawn.

RCGM
Brad


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Rcgm said:


> That is exactly right.They also never figure everything insurance, taxes etc.


Because they dont pay either. I hate to say it either but theres a lot of guys that post here statisticly speaking that dont pay taxes and have never even called an insurance man for a quote.

Hey Brad....If you ever run into any commercials or resi customers with a relative or branch in the Ann Arbor area in need of good service gimme a jingle. Snow, mowing, Fertilizing/weed control etc.

xysport


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Reasons why people bid like idiots?

-Never plowed before and have no idea what local going rates are
-They bought a new truck and want an excuse to help with payments or an excuse to create a buisness and have write offs
-Too lazy to prepare proper bids
-No insurance
-Seen a local contractor's prices and think they can do it for half and still profit

Another big thing is some people have it in their head that any competition is bad and its not the case,I can work with anyone just local contractors want to cut each others throat and I can't understand why.My idea is bid on a job to your best ability and if I don't get it,I'd sub for whoever won it....I still get work from the job just not as much as if I did it myself.

Welcome to the wonderfull world of snow removal.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

murray83 said:


> My idea is bid on a job to your best ability and if I don't get it,I'd sub for whoever won it....I still get work from the job just not as much as if I did it myself.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Interesting. You'd do it for less than what you bid if it was someone else's contract? Why not bid it for that to start with? I don't see how I'd ever work for someone to whom I lost a bid. If they hired me, they'd be losing money.
> ...


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## Rcgm (Dec 17, 2000)

[....I still get work from the job just not as much as if I did it myself.

Welcome to the wonderfull world of snow removal.[/QUOTE]

WHAT 

Don't do that.Come to Indiana I will sub alot of stuff to you if you do good work for cheap.LOL

I agree with mick I would NEVER work for someone that got a bid that I bid on for cheaper don't sell yourself short.

RCGM
Brad


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## Rcgm (Dec 17, 2000)

Hey LLM

I would be more than happy to send some work your way if I ever run across someone in that area.How far are you from Fort Wayne Indiana?


RCGM
Brad


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

Interesting. You'd do it for less than what you bid if it was someone else's contract? Why not bid it for that to start with? I don't see how I'd ever work for someone to whom I lost a bid. If they hired me, they'd be losing money.
[/QUOTE]

What I mean is my backhoe is $100/hr my truck is $80/hr,I've had local guys bid $25 for a backhoe up to $75 for a truck with a sander,there is no way in gods green earth i'm going to lower my rate to match morons who bid low to get a job.My rates are my rates and I'm very willing to help anyone locally who needs it....at my prices.


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## Snowman19 (Sep 30, 2006)

Lowballers need to be beaten with THE CLUB!!!!!!! I lose so much work because they think because they have a truck and a plow, they can just go around and steal our business. Given that you actually have a business and insurance.(Not directed at anyone specific) I Iost a BIG bid to someone that just got layed off from the shop and underbid me by half!! Im mad, Mad and Furious(it could almost be a movie title) :realmad: :realmad:


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Rcgm said:


> Hey LLM
> 
> I would be more than happy to send some work your way if I ever run across someone in that area.How far are you from Fort Wayne Indiana?
> 
> ...


2 hours Brad. Im actually considering maybe subbing for someone out of state in addition to my arrangements here since snow patterns sometimes hit that Indiana Ohio belt and miss me here on occassion.


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## NoFearDeere (Nov 7, 2005)

murray83 said:


> Reasons why people bid like idiots?
> 
> -Never plowed before and have no idea what local going rates are
> -They bought a new truck and want an excuse to help with payments or an excuse to create a buisness and have write offs
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head.....:salute:


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## rayf268 (Oct 13, 2006)

Rcgm 
are you looking for sub's in fort wayne if so I am currently available My hours are limited but I can plow anytime I am not working 12mid - 6 or 8 am depending on if I can get out early on account of snow . give me a call if we could work something out 
Ray 
260-437-5467


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## traviswalker007 (Oct 13, 2006)

*I feel cheated*

Well I to lost a bid for 9 fast food joints, I bid them at 160 a pop, and the mexican mafia bif them at 60 a pop including salt.....im getting so tired of these mofos taking work away from legal residents...how can they keep getting away with it. Same as the Lawn contracts, they drive around in some rusted up van piled roof high with there cousins and they work for nothing cuz theres 20 to a house......im goona blow pretty quick.


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## rayf268 (Oct 13, 2006)

I think everyone should get to know a INS agent who really cracks down on illegals then hire some (illegals) pay them and have the fuss sitting by ready to throw them over the fence at least that can say they worked for a day ...


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## JeffNY (Dec 19, 2005)

see, because I read these posts, it stops me from going out and stopping at places offering them what I think is a good deal, but I have never plowed before, im just getting into it, I know nothing about contracts or pricing, or how long anything will take, so this year it looks like im just going to sit back, do our store's parking lot, and maybe one other, and a few houses.
I'll use this year as practice and get to know the industry before I go out making foolish bids.

But next year, im going to get into the whole 'bidding' thing, theres a few places I want around here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Some good reasons given already and they are correct, but not all the reasons.
1) Stupidity being at the top of the list
2) Ignorance of proper business procedures--taxes, insurance, pricing snow removal as the EMERGENCY service that it is.
3) The one most forgot is the 'established' companies wanting to gain market share and make up their losses in volume. Sooner or later this will catch up with them, but in the meantime it hurts all of us reputable contractors, by depressing the pricing in the whole region.

This last one is the biggest problem in my area. I can't remember if I've said it before, but we have 2 or 3 contractors that are doing this in GR. Plowing is 1/2 to 2/3's of what it should be, salt is about the same. These prices are coming from contractors that have been around for quite awhile, over 10 years. One of them already cut their overhead this past summer because they found out they weren't charging enough. As for the others, it will eventually come around to bite them in the ass. Especially when I know for a fact that some of this guy's subs are incompetent, since we used one of them last year and lost a nice account because of it. You can't build a successful service company on low price alone, just ask John Allin.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

I wish there was some way to get the word out to the client base about insurance, that's a huge cost and hardly anybody is paying for it!! My agent is a real old company in this area, and they told me they only write a handful of plowing policies each winter. Compare that to the thousands of trucks on the road with a blade on during a storm, and you know we are in the minority. And if those jerkoffs would get a policy, maybe the cost would come down. I even see guys advertising that they are "fully insured", but they actually are not commercially insured, they just have regular car insurance and they think it will be good enough. Then, there are thousands of guys in my state who have no insurance at all because NH doesn't require it. They will even take yard plows out on the road and do a route, because they know their chances of getting pulled over during a snowstorm are slim. In NH there is a law saying you are "allowed" to run amber beacons while plowing, but no law requiring it. Only one requiring it is the insurance companies. So I also notice a lot of trucks without beacons, even on $40000 brand new trucks, they wont drop $30 for a little teardrop. Real smart, going around in poor visibility on slippery roads, backing out of driveways without anything to warn the rest of the motorists. Man that makes me mad! I've even seen a guy get a convenience store/gas station account and use a half ton Dodge with 7'6 blade. No beacons, no sander, no name on the truck, and I bet no insurance. Although one would think a chain store would require the insurance rider, course who knows if they check. And if he's doing it that way, without professional equipment, then he obviously doesn't have any experience. And he lowballed the rest of us to get it.
Same thing every year, and everybody says, leave it alone, they will screw themselves or break down, or damage something and not be insured, or whatever, but truth be told, it keeps happening every year, either the same morons or a new batch!


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

*great idea*



JeffNY said:


> ....I have never plowed before, im just getting into it, I know nothing about contracts or pricing, or how long anything will take, so this year it looks like im just going to sit back, do our store's parking lot, and maybe one other, and a few houses.
> I'll use this year as practice and get to know the industry before I go out making foolish bids.....


Thats great Jeff, I'm glad your making a good decision (not patronizing, I'm a Dad )

My first year I didn't even plow, I rode shot-gun and watch and learned. Then I subbed for the guy the next year to gain experience, then the next year I had my friends call around for price quotes so I could get a general idea of local pricing, now I'm just trying to find that magical number where I can get accounts but still make money. I found out the hard way that most business _won't pay for really good service_, just clear the lot forget the salt and hope they don't get sued.


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## BobC (Nov 5, 2004)

Plowing without liabilty insurance covering the actual snowplowing is insane even if you feel you don't have much to loose in a lawsuit you will loose that. Have a collision without the required (by plow insurance) lighting could leave you holding the bag. I agree that many businesses don't want to pay for salting and they are a customer you don't want. You as a professional and the service provider are going to be held responsible in a suit because you should have known the dangers exist. Yes it's a catch 22 but that same customer who was in bed at 2AM will claim you only plowed 3in. not the 6in. that was there because some weatherman 50miles away says that was the snowfall. In regards to lowballers going under I feel that for every one that has trouble several more buy trucks and take his place. The customer is the one who needs to be educated.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

BobC said:


> The customer is the one who needs to be educated.


That's exactly my point! That's what I was trying to say before I got sidetracked and started ranting. So, how do we get the word out there? I saw the exact same thing with towing when I was doing that. I worked for a big professional company with all the best equipment, the boss ensured that we all got certified by Wreckmaster, we had ongoing training all year, we practiced extrications and rollovers, we even trained fire departments to show them what has to happen to get people in a car out from under a commercial truck like a garbage truck or cement mixer, you name it. 
Anyway, the big problem was (and still is) that people don't want to pay all the money to have their $50,000 car towed professionally, when Joe Blows fly by night hack towing will tow anything anywhere for $25. 
As a sidenote, yesterday I saw a teenager in his dad's old F350 ramp truck (no business name, no number on door, no commercial registration) load a Honda Civic and he put the rear chains to the rear control arms, tightened it until the rear control arm twisted under and then the winch line broke. Where's your insurance now?


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

Detroitdan said:


> I wish there was some way to get the word out to the client base about insurance, that's a huge cost and hardly anybody is paying for it!! My agent is a real old company in this area, and they told me they only write a handful of plowing policies each winter.!


When you send your bid have your insurer send a certificate of insurance. Tell the customer " I know you'll need a certificate of insurance, I'll have my agent send you one directly" Your insurer should send one no charge and you'll (hopefully) get the customer requesting them (certificate of insurance) for all bidders. Helps either set you above the competition, or at least level the playing field.

just my 2 cents.


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## DeereGuy (Dec 12, 2003)

That's a good point on sending an automatic Cert when you bid on a job you really want. I think I just lost a small Comm. bid here in NH because a store employee just happens to have a plow on his old beater. I know that he doesn't carry insurance etc. My last email to the Corp office in CA stated I would send out Certificates on request (Ins. Comp. faxes them free). *I should have just sent them with my bid * so they could differentiate.

The other thing that irks me this year is the time I've put in hand holding potential clients, then no response as to what happened with the bid. Three bids and constant contact with three different groups and then they all of a sudden won't even talk with me to let me know whether they have decided or not. I just want to know so I can stop wasting my time. All three promised to let me know either way. One was running for state rep. She made a big ethics speech on the local station the week before she stopped taking my calls. I think after all said and done she was just getting a price to hire someone in the Condo Assoc.. Well, that's business I guess and I'm a boyscout.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

all you guys are joking right? 

When some one gets a contract that you wanted, or needed. They must be “a scab” with nothing. 

We have emergency services insurance, We also have DOT certs for all 5 of our trucks, with 2 rollbacks and a 4xwheel lift you kind of have too. 3 of the 5 trucks have the DOT # on the side. no your MIHC # is not the same as a DOT Cert. If your salting you best have DOT # hauling salt for commercial use as it falls under DOT. So how many of the whiners in this thread are really Legal?


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## Gicon (Oct 1, 2005)

I think a lot of the problem is, the majority of the plow guys out there simply don’t structure their snow plowing as a business. They structure it as a side job that means nothing, not a time to make money, and a time to help out all their neighbors and friends. What they don’t see is the effect that has on the local economy. If I am trying to get $40 for a driveway, and Joe blow only needs $20, that is a huge discrepancy. I charge per 3" of snowfall after 6. Most guys charge one price whether its a 6" storm or 18". Again, it comes down to lack of infrastructure. They go to their day job, come home, and if they can make $80 per hour plowing they think they are in the money. For the past few years, the only money I make is during snow plowing season. Yes, I do work during the day, but I can make more in a winter than I can all year, considering the amount of time you work, (5 hours in a snow storm vs. 50 hours a week, every week) I have grown to be the largest Residential contractor in my area. One thing I will not do is come down on my prices, because I am not on the level of the hacks charging next to nothing to plow. I have a 2004 F-350 Diesel, which as you know, is a pricey truck, that knock on wood, has never failed me. I run a 5-truck operation dedicated to residential clients only. A lot of clients have told me I am the highest priced show in town, and I am. People who want to pay for service hire me, and stay with me. People, who want the cheap way out, find someone else, and that’s what they get. There’s nothing more than urks me than giving a bid for $40 and them being like I got a price for $20. Most of the time I want to give them the speech about what they are paying and what they are going to get, but I just let it go and say good luck. You have to know in the back of your head that that guy is going to fail miserably, and they are going to call you. Maybe mid season, maybe next year, but it will happen. I just remain cool, and wish them good luck. I don’t talk bad about everyone else, but I sell 5 trucks, just in my town. Not, oh, sorry customer, one truck is in another town, or 1 is here or 1 is broke down. That doesn’t fly. Some customers will pay for service. Others don’t care. I signed a driveway the other day, and here is a prime example. This driveway is very small; you could barely park 3 cars in the driveway. It is very steep downhill. The driveway is worth $30 if it was perfectly flat, per 6". I sold it for $65, because I sold honesty, and service. This guy said that sounds great, sign me up. He could easily get it done for $30-$40 but is willing to pay, and get what he pays for. I can’t stand low ballers, but they wont survive. Like someone said, in the slow times, the low ballers just cant survive, because they don’t structure things as a business, therefore not leaving them with the proper reserves and etc. This year I’ve even had people call and say "o, tom was doing it last year for $30 but he moved to Florida. I say ok no problem, ill do it for $30. They don’t even call back. I don’t get it. Just sit tight, for all you reputable guys. Your reputation will carry. Start a referral program. Word of mouth will keep you growing. I pray for a HUUUUUUGE Blizzard, right off the bat, because these new guys and low ballers will have no idea to handle it, or keep their customers cleared out. Now, all we need is some snow to get things underway! Good luck everyone!


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## rayf268 (Oct 13, 2006)

First off I do not agree with lowballing .

I for one feel that competition is what makes America's business the way they are . 
if joe blow will do a acceptable job for $30 rather then $50 go for it if it doesn't work out kick his ass to the curb . but you will know you will pay more later its the way of the beast .
But I do think that for guys with a 9-5 job who plow on the side . for less (not half) what they could get . $80 bucks a hour is big money for a few hours in the snow . as far as the economy if they do a poor job and get axed then hopefully the customer has your card and you can charge a premium . IF you have been plowing for a while and have grown you accounts over the years and not lowered you prices then you doing something right . as far as lowballers not lasting I don't see how being a structured business is going to keep someone going who isn't doing it to survive. I don't count on plowing to pay my bills . last year was the first year I plowed and only got two plowable snowfalls . the only way I was out was it didn't pay back my plow cost $950.00. If I was counting on snow I would have been screwed . 
Sorry for my rant . 
I don't try to lowball myself but I am a part time plower who plows around my fulltime job . 
I don't try to get large jobs only small lots and driveways . 
if someone wants the best service they should call the pros .
hope I didn't step on anyones toes too hard .


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

No one Owns any contract.

As I said in another post if I worried about any lost job I'd price I'd go looney,If I was to bid a Wal-Mart and I lost,I'd seek out who won it and offer my services as a sub,I can work with anyone when most contractors won't even look at each other,I'd rather make 50 cents and keep busy than charge a dollar and sit at home.

To each their own I suppose.


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## BobC (Nov 5, 2004)

If a low baller want's to work for free he can't replace his equipment!! I don't agree with low balling and I think one of the corners they cut is liability insurance and a legitimate business does. Property owners should be educated! I wouldn't't have the tree in my yard cut down by the low priced guy without insurance. Imagine when you insurance carrier wants from You the insurance info from the contractor who dropped the tree in your living room.


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## murray83 (Dec 3, 2005)

But will the property owner even listen?

If he can get plowed for $5 he'll take it,I've explained to many that its in YOUR best interest as a homeowner or property manager to hire someone with current insurance thats covers them in case of an accident but it goes in one ear and out the other.

Can't teach an old dog new tricks.


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## RODHALL (Nov 23, 2005)

Well looks like you guys answered my question real well. 

50% of my work is customers of our shop. 10x40 driveways are only $20 jobs with 6-inchs of snow. They are 10 minuet jobs at most. While I do understand the slop of the driveway may change what you charge, hearing $65 or $75 for little driveway is just nuts. 

We have a small development of 20 to 25 houses, 6 inch of snow it is just under a 2 hour job (1 truck and 1 4wheeler), to do all the driveways in there, every drive way is 10x40 or 20x20. There are very few cars to plow around. this year it contracted for up to 6 inches $25 per drive way, 7 to 12 $50 over 12 $65 We have a few longer 300ft driveways (they are push in turn around and push out) at up to 6 inches $50 to $75 they are only 20 minuet jobs. We have 2 jobs that are in around the building 2 or 3 times, and back out. Each one takes a half hour (6 inches of snow) I even do some places for FREE…. I do the pastors driveway, and few of the older folks close to my house for nothing. I make out fair in my plowing, (most of the time cover costs + a few hundred) 


I don’t see it at low balling, I do the job for what I feel is a fair price. the home owners association, with the 20-25 houses, they had bids from $25 per driveway to $75 per driveway for the up to 6 inch snow fall. There were 2 at $25 per but we got the contract because if doing last year.


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Gicon said:


> I think a lot of the problem is, the majority of the plow guys out there simply don't structure their snow plowing as a business. They structure it as a side job that means nothing, not a time to make money, and a time to help out all their neighbors and friends. What they don't see is the effect that has on the local economy. If I am trying to get $40 for a driveway, and Joe blow only needs $20, that is a huge discrepancy. I charge per 3" of snowfall after 6. Most guys charge one price whether its a 6" storm or 18". Again, it comes down to lack of infrastructure. They go to their day job, come home, and if they can make $80 per hour plowing they think they are in the money. For the past few years, the only money I make is during snow plowing season. Yes, I do work during the day, but I can make more in a winter than I can all year, considering the amount of time you work, (5 hours in a snow storm vs. 50 hours a week, every week) I have grown to be the largest Residential contractor in my area. One thing I will not do is come down on my prices, because I am not on the level of the hacks charging next to nothing to plow. I have a 2004 F-350 Diesel, which as you know, is a pricey truck, that knock on wood, has never failed me. I run a 5-truck operation dedicated to residential clients only. A lot of clients have told me I am the highest priced show in town, and I am. People who want to pay for service hire me, and stay with me. People, who want the cheap way out, find someone else, and that's what they get. There's nothing more than urks me than giving a bid for $40 and them being like I got a price for $20. Most of the time I want to give them the speech about what they are paying and what they are going to get, but I just let it go and say good luck. You have to know in the back of your head that that guy is going to fail miserably, and they are going to call you. Maybe mid season, maybe next year, but it will happen. I just remain cool, and wish them good luck. I don't talk bad about everyone else, but I sell 5 trucks, just in my town. Not, oh, sorry customer, one truck is in another town, or 1 is here or 1 is broke down. That doesn't fly. Some customers will pay for service. Others don't care. I signed a driveway the other day, and here is a prime example. This driveway is very small; you could barely park 3 cars in the driveway. It is very steep downhill. The driveway is worth $30 if it was perfectly flat, per 6". I sold it for $65, because I sold honesty, and service. This guy said that sounds great, sign me up. He could easily get it done for $30-$40 but is willing to pay, and get what he pays for. I can't stand low ballers, but they wont survive. Like someone said, in the slow times, the low ballers just cant survive, because they don't structure things as a business, therefore not leaving them with the proper reserves and etc. This year I've even had people call and say "o, tom was doing it last year for $30 but he moved to Florida. I say ok no problem, ill do it for $30. They don't even call back. I don't get it. Just sit tight, for all you reputable guys. Your reputation will carry. Start a referral program. Word of mouth will keep you growing. I pray for a HUUUUUUGE Blizzard, right off the bat, because these new guys and low ballers will have no idea to handle it, or keep their customers cleared out. Now, all we need is some snow to get things underway! Good luck everyone!


This is the biggest paragraph Ive ever seen in my entire life.

lol


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> This is the biggest paragraph Ive ever seen in my entire life.
> 
> lol


Thank YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU for your input!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LLM Ann Arbor said:


> Hey Brad....If you ever run into any commercials or resi customers with a relative or branch in the Ann Arbor area in need of good service gimme a jingle. Snow, mowing, Fertilizing/weed control etc.
> 
> xysport


Can't find the post where you stated you didn't live in Ann Arbor, but would you care to explain the above statement? Other than "I don't actually live there, it's just in my service area" type statement.

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## LLM Ann Arbor (Sep 18, 2006)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Can't find the post where you stated you didn't live in Ann Arbor, but would you care to explain the above statement? Other than "I don't actually live there, it's just in my service area" type statement.
> 
> lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I dont live in Ann Arbor. Thats where most of my work is because I live in a small town of 2000 people or less thats not far from Ann Arbor Mark.

You seem to be very interested in where I live. Why is that. Mark.


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## businessjeff (Nov 22, 2006)

Oh yah this is such a huge problem I think everyone has already covered the reason why tarts bid low. But this issue is a double eadged sword, With any other type of service, lets say trees, if you underbid your loosing work because you scare the customer off. Bid high let them tell you they dont like it and work with them from there, that way they think you are a nice guy, when really your just playing the game.

With plowing a difference of $5 will be a huge deciding factor for small business owners and alike. Which is ridicules. They try and offset the cost of plowing with the cost of being sued for slip and fall. I hate it.

No matter how good of a job you do
No matter how new and reliable your equipment is
No matter how much they like
They will always take the cheaper bid
:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

under the box that you type your post in there are three yellow buttons. One of them says spell check.


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## basher (Nov 13, 2004)

LLM Ann Arbor;325365 said:


> This is the biggest paragraph Ive ever seen in my entire life.
> 
> lol


You limit your reading to the comics?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

basher;335640 said:


> You limit your reading to the comics?


ROFLMAO

That was a good one!


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

I plow for cheap just to come in here and hear people cry about lowballers.

Heck if I ever see cry babies from here, near my location, I might just plow for free; just to hear them whine. Makes for good entertainment, and good entertainment is pricey these days.

Chris


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

Detroitdan;335509 said:


> under the box that you type your post in there are three yellow buttons. One of them says spell check.


Talking to the side of the barn again are we Dan? 

Chris


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## businessjeff (Nov 22, 2006)

ThisIsMe;335729 said:


> Talking to the side of the barn again are we Dan?
> 
> Chris


Wow I could care less. Here maybe this will get you off. I Am UsInG ImProPEr Use OF CAps DoesnT ThiS GEt You HARd. And kudos for adressing your forum butt buddy by his name. Plow for free I bet. You dont even plow. Its quite obvious that all you do is sit on plow-site.com and post all day long


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

businessjeff;336325 said:


> Wow I could care less. Here maybe this will get you off. I Am UsInG ImProPEr Use OF CAps DoesnT ThiS GEt You HARd. And kudos for adressing your forum butt buddy by his name. Plow for free I bet. You dont even plow. Its quite obvious that all you do is sit on plow-site.com and post all day long


businessjeff, you sure are a friendly cuss. You're correct, with a 184 posts, yes he does just sit here and post all day. Wonder where they all are?

PS LLM is the only one who sits on PS all day and *****es. Maybe you 2 ought to get together sometime.


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

I do spend way too much time here. I wish I could be more productive and get something done around the house. But I think this form of communication is important, you not only learn new ideas, you get better at interacting with others, kind of like sending a kid to daycare. You also might learn to type and spell better once you've done it for a while. Hey businessjeff, done much plowing?


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## Jpocket (Nov 7, 2005)

RODHALL;325198 said:


> Well looks like you guys answered my question real well.
> 
> 50% of my work is customers of our shop. 10x40 driveways are only $20 jobs with 6-inchs of snow. They are 10 minuet jobs at most. While I do understand the slop of the driveway may change what you charge, hearing $65 or $75 for little driveway is just nuts.
> 
> ...


This is great, and i see it works out for you. I know plenty of guys who do stuff like this.

Some of these guys like you are under bidding on the "big boy" contracts, competing against guys who feed there families off of this income. For myself and alot of others just cover cost and "+ a few hundred is unacceptable"


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## Detroitdan (Aug 15, 2005)

I wouldn't call that lowballing at all. $25 for a little driveway is great when you get a whole bunch all together like that. I'll sometimes work a little cheaper if it lets me stay in one area, travel time is what kills you. Now I wouldn't drive ten miles to do a driveway like you describe for $25, but a bunch of them, now that's decent money. I'm surprised Joe Lowballer hasn't tried to take them away for $10 a whack.


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## ThisIsMe (Oct 31, 2006)

businessjeff;336325 said:


> Wow I could care less. Here maybe this will get you off. I Am UsInG ImProPEr Use OF CAps DoesnT ThiS GEt You HARd. And kudos for adressing your forum butt buddy by his name. Plow for free I bet. You dont even plow. Its quite obvious that all you do is sit on plow-site.com and post all day long


Ahh Nice you see you are adding to your long list of friends. Proud of ya. You will grow into a fine young man someday.

Chris


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## businessjeff (Nov 22, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;336376 said:


> businessjeff, you sure are a friendly cuss. You're correct, with a 184 posts, yes he does just sit here and post all day. Wonder where they all are?
> 
> PS LLM is the only one who sits on PS all day and *****es. Maybe you 2 ought to get together sometime.


I dont sit on here and *****, I actually had posted a helpfull and meaningfull post above. I hdnt *****ed until that douchbag actually followed me from another thread to come on here and gay up this thread.


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