# Why are other companies out during storms and we go out at end of storm?



## 4-Seasons (Dec 13, 2007)

We always see big lots get plowed when storm just starts and throughout. We only go out at end of storm and charge what we plowed in inches which is stated on our contract.
If you are out during whole storm goes does that work for get paid?


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Yup we get paid hourly throughout the storm. 

Large commercials can't take.chances of slip and falls


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## Emans_scapes (Dec 25, 2013)

We always plow once there's 1/2" or so on the pavement. And don't stop until the snow has finished and everything has been salted. Everything is T&M.


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## 32vld (Feb 4, 2011)

I do residential. People do not want to pay twice to get a driveway done.

I have one commercial. They open 9 am M. 12 pm T W Th. F S S they are closed. Which is good because it allows me to put them last if I need to. They have only wanted me to have it cleaned before they open. Never during the storm.

Now there are businesses that stay open during storms and can not wait for the storm to stop.


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## IPLOWSNO (Oct 11, 2008)

We start at the beginning, reasons other than no slip and fall is because with lake effect it adds up fast,
If guys can't get there to plow then what happens if we're already there it don't build up as much!


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Our commercial props are zero tolerance. It starts snowing, we start plowing. This all figured into the seasonal price.


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## djt1029 (Oct 3, 2011)

All my commercials are open during storms, so we plow with the storm. It's all figured into the pricing


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## LawnGuy110 (Feb 15, 2010)

if there is 2 inches on the ground we are out plowing...most of the time we go out before that though...from there we jut plow with the storm


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I'll never get how a contractor charges by the hr for snow plowing...
anyway.

I have one customer that has a 1/4 inch trigger.
We will plow it every time 1/4" accumulates.
From 5am to 5pm
We charge by the push on all lots.
We can't wait until it stops snowing to plow.
The 24/7 restaurants want 24/7 service too

What if it snows for days?
Are you only going out after it stops?

resi could see 2 pushes a day, before they go to work and just before the work day is over as snow permits.


We plow as the trigger depth is met.


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## 4-Seasons (Dec 13, 2007)

SnoFarmer;1736347 said:


> I'll never get how a contractor charges by the hr for snow plowing...
> anyway.
> 
> I have one customer that has a 1/4 inch trigger.
> ...


If we know it is going to snow more the 10-12inches we will go out most likely twice. Anything under we go when storm is coming to end.


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## 4-Seasons (Dec 13, 2007)

So for seasonal pricing you give a price say $5000 for a small convenience store? they pay monthy? or up front? it snows 20 times in season and basically you go there 50-60 times?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Only my resi are seasonal

All seasonal s are on a prepay bases.
some will be given a 2 pay option.
1st payment Nov, 1st
2nd payment due Jan1st.

commercial
I have found most business don't want to deal with the snow during business hrs and I have found that I can't control when it snows or how much will fall.
I don't know what business wants to deal with 3" and counting building up on the lot and sidewalks as the plow guy waits for it to stop snowing.

A lot of snow can build up before it stops snowing...

We can't wait for it to stop snowing then plow, money is to be made.
sell a trigger depth and plow by the push, giving you more opportunity to make money.
We make money as nature permits.


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## 4-Seasons (Dec 13, 2007)

Still don't understand. If I say by push. I can push 10 times during storm? Customer won't like that.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

SnoFarmer;1736347 said:


> I'll never get how a contractor charges by the hr for snow plowing...
> anyway.
> 
> I have one customer that has a 1/4 inch trigger.
> ...


Not complicated. You give them a price for each piece per hour. Shovelers, skid, trucks, etc

Then they pay you per hour for each piece.

A lot depends on what and who youre plowing for


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

As a business owner paying by the hr., how am I assured of productivity?
A operator/ shovel operator that is not proficient, is sick, fighting with the wife/girlfriend or tired is not going to be as productive as they could be.
to many variables.

The same work could vary by many billing hrs Depending on the condition of your equipment or personal.

I'm sure a lot depends.....

When your lot is paved does the paving contractor bill for paver hrs, dump truck hrs, roller hrs, shoveler s hrs, lute operator hrs or is it a set price for the lot?

A shovlers output is going to vary greatly from hr to hr and day to day.
This is also so for machine operators.

We all know that in some will do (lets use bobcats)
bill X for a bobcat per hr, with a minimum charge.

Billing by the hr sounds like a lot of extra work and a crap-shoot for the business owner.

I guess if everyone is happy with it,
HAVE FUN...



Whiffyspark;1736500 said:


> Not complicated. You give them a price for each piece per hour. Shovelers, skid, trucks, etc
> 
> Then they pay you per hour for each piece.
> 
> A lot depends on what and who youre plowing for


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Its always been like that for zero tolerance lots. Its not a crap shot


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Roll of the dice, how much will it cost this time?

It is for the business owner.
The time a 2" snow fall could take you to do (lets say 2hrs) and the next time it could take you 3hrs for the same 2" "depending"
a crap-shoot.

I have a low tolerance lot.
It's by the push and it's done during the storm not after. 
Their bill is not a surprise they know it will cost x every time we service the lot.

It snowed for 24hrs on your zero tolerance lot, what do you bill for a truck with a competent operator a hr?
$75 -$100 a hr?.
And how many snow shoveler's does it take to have it maned for 24hrs and at what$$ an hr.

It just sounds like your making a lot of desk work for you and your people compiling hrs.

Again if it works for you.Thumbs Up

I couldn't sell it but, more power to you.


Whiffyspark;1736552 said:


> Its always been like that for zero tolerance lots. Its not a crap shot


Other than the zero tolerance lot(s) do you go out depending on trigger depth or do you go our after the storm is over.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

All but two of our lots are zero tolerance. One is also per hour when the storm is over. The other one is just for sidewalks when the storm is over, also.

Trucks are $125
Laborers are $30
Skids are $140

We also have 4 loaders, with 2 3 lane wide pushers and one 3 lane plow. The other one rides around with the bucket pushing piles and scraping hardpack. 

There's a slight price increase over 6 Inches. They also provide salt on salt and Mag pallets. 

We've been doing the lots for a few years now, never had any complaints. It's a high end local property owner company. Our flagship lot is nationally known.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Whiffyspark;1736579 said:


> All but two of our lots are zero tolerance. One is also per hour when the storm is over. The other one is just for sidewalks when the storm is over, also.
> 
> Trucks are $125
> Laborers are $30
> ...


What exactly are you using to push a 27' wide box or plow? I am going by minimum lane width stated by DOT of 9'.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

kimber750;1736626 said:


> What exactly are you using to push a 27' wide box or plow? I am going by minimum lane width stated by DOT of 9'.


Full size cat loaders. I don't remember the exact size. They're not quite 27 wide. They will cover 2 lanes easily. Protech pushers

I think the lanes are 8, not 9


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Full size, I'm going to call my Cat dealer and order one of those with a 2-3 lane blade and see what they say.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

JD Dave;1736639 said:


> Full size, I'm going to call my Cat dealer and order one of those with a 2-3 lane blade and see what they say.


Cat loaders protech push boxes. Go ahead


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## Emans_scapes (Dec 25, 2013)

I don't understand why you would set a 1/4" trigger. Why not just say zero tolerance. If it snows 3" your going to bill them for 12 pushes? If it's snowing an inch plus per hour your telling me you will plow the lot 4 times in that hour? That sounds like a crapshoot to me.


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## Emans_scapes (Dec 25, 2013)

SnoFarmer;1736347 said:


> I have one customer that has a 1/4 inch trigger.
> We will plow it every time 1/4" accumulates.
> From 5am to 5pm
> We charge by the push on all .


That's ridiculous. By the hour is too easy. They can ask to see your paper work and check there cameras to verify. Not that they will do it all the time but it keeps you being honest.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

4-Seasons;1736497 said:


> Still don't understand. If I say by push. I can push 10 times during storm? Customer won't like that.


It comes down to trust, and the size of the lot for available space to put the snow.

I have a couple commercial jobs. I work per push, regardless of who I work for.

If the storm is predicting 4" of drop, then I'll wait till the end of the storm. If necessary, I'll swing back and do a cleanup afterwords, but I don't charge for cleanups.

If the storm is predicting 8+ inches, I go twice. They get billed twice.

Why ?

Because the lot is small enough (10K sq ft) that If I wait too long, the snow will build up too fast on my blade pushing it to the rear of the property. This means I don't stack as well, or as High as I could. It also means much more stress on my truck and being flat out honest with them, I told them I wasn't going to be pushing 12" drops, as I'm not breaking my truck for their saving a push. We agreed that anything over 3" gets a push. If I push 6 or less I charge them once. If I have to return to clear another 6, 5, 4, Etc. during the storm, then they get charged twice.

So far, I've had no complaints, as I return after each storm to "clean the lot again" and I never charge them for doing so. They know I care about their job, and that's all that matters to them.

On my other commercial job, I'm only allowed to plow at the end of the job. The job is larger (15k square feet) and there's more places to put the snow. I charge them a flat rate up to 6", then x amount of dollars per ever 4" past that. If I get 13" that's the flat plus the x, plus the x again, but then I discount the job because in reality it doesn't take me that much longer to do it.

It all comes down to trust. If they don't have it in me, then the relationship / agreement wouldn't work.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

I'm so good glad for having seasonal contracts. It snows I go. No worry about how much to bill or how much snow was on the ground at the time. Bill 5 times and all is good.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

ridiculous.
Not at all, it's about knowing your #'s and simplicity.

What is ridiculous is having a business owner go to the security cams for verification.

By the hr, is not simple.
Collecting and verifying (your self) the hrs worked from each employee then compiling there hrs and rates for the work they performed.
To mulch add work.

I don't need to keep repeating myself.
but
There is no incentive to be productive when working by the hr.
When you do become proficient you take a pay cut.



Emmanuel;1736703 said:


> That's ridiculous. By the hour is too easy. They can ask to see your paper work and check there cameras to verify. Not that they will do it all the time but it keeps you being honest.


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## grandview (Oct 9, 2005)

SnoFarmer;1737012 said:


> ridiculous.
> Not at all, it's about knowing your #'s and simplicity.
> 
> What is ridiculous is having a business owner go to the security cams for verification.
> ...


Also by plowing by the hour your losing money by not having other places to plow, so your putting all your eggs in one basket.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Because if it was truly a zero tolerance lot, when it's snowing someone would need to be on site.

The Doctors that I'm plowing for wouldn't complain if I did camp out and keep the place clear
as there kind of anal but I have other clients and other things that require my time.

Seeings one push could take a hr, it won't be doing it 12 times for 3"
But I could easily do it 4-5 times in a work day.

What would be a crap shoot is paying the shoveler by the hr to shovel all day.

You don't have a handle on a trigger depth do you.
what is your trigger depth, and what if you received that much snow every hr. what you you do?.
Do tell.



Emmanuel;1736686 said:


> I don't understand why you would set a 1/4" trigger. Why not just say zero tolerance. If it snows 3" your going to bill them for 12 pushes? If it's snowing an inch plus per hour your telling me you will plow the lot 4 times in that hour? That sounds like a crapshoot to me.


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Once snow starts flying you keep plowing to keep everything open. Only when its done do you starting cleaning up and stacking. 

We salt when storm starts. Once one inch is accumulated we plow till its over. We'll salt in the middle when it starts freezing and once more at the end after clean up

But like I said. Every lot and every contract is different. Just cause someone doesn't do it you're way means it's wrote f


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## LopatLT7495 (Jan 1, 2014)

I personally do not see why this is so complicated to understand. My commercial lots are all per push with a 2" trigger. Once there is 2" on the ground I got and plow. I do this while they are open, once they close ( one 5pm, one 9pm, the other 10pm) the trigger goes up to 4", there is no reason for me to push every 2" all night while they are closed. With commercial you simply cannot just wait until the storm is done to got plow. I've had 2 of these lots for 4 yrs without one complaint and customers have told me that they like how thorough I am when cleaning the lot and I have gotten calls from people the business owners have referred me to after liking my work.


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Whiffyspark;1736632 said:


> Full size cat loaders. I don't remember the exact size. They're not quite 27 wide. They will cover 2 lanes easily. Protech pushers
> 
> I think the lanes are 8, not 9


You a employee of the snow company It doesn't sound like your a owner of it A owner would know exact size of those loaders and true size of the pushers 
A lane I say is at least 10ft from yellow to white line

So you know a Full size Loader will take up 2 lanes its self 
JD Dave here has to be what he using this is the full size loader


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

We sub contract 3 of them. Wtf do you consider a "mid size" loader? Lol to me midsize is 60-70 HP

And yes I'm an "employee" but it's my site. I'm a foreman. Been for several years now. 

I'm pretty sure they're bigger than 16. They take up both lanes


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

LopatLT7495;1737048 said:


> I personally do not see why this is so complicated to understand. My commercial lots are all per push with a 2" trigger. Once there is 2" on the ground I got and plow. I do this while they are open, once they close ( one 5pm, one 9pm, the other 10pm) the trigger goes up to 4", there is no reason for me to push every 2" all night while they are closed. With commercial you simply cannot just wait until the storm is done to got plow. I've had 2 of these lots for 4 yrs without one complaint and customers have told me that they like how thorough I am when cleaning the lot and I have gotten calls from people the business owners have referred me to after liking my work.


I get it and that's how I plow to

Still are companies around me waits till snow stops I think its dumb but I guess some people are ok with that There is my company and one other one that plows during the storm Most time few hrs after storm is over We are done and going home.
Was a company that only plowed from 9 to 5 they didn't last to long


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## Whiffyspark (Dec 23, 2009)

Antlerart06;1737067 said:


> I get it and that's how I plow to
> 
> Still are companies around me waits till snow stops I think its dumb but I guess some people are ok with that There is my company and one other one that plows during the storm Most time few hrs after storm is over We are done and going home.
> Was a company that only plowed from 9 to 5 they didn't last to long


9 to 5? Lol. What was the deal with that?


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## Antlerart06 (Feb 28, 2011)

Whiffyspark;1737071 said:


> 9 to 5? Lol. What was the deal with that?


I don't know they even mowed the same hours to They had to stop Bank took it all bank

They sold out I bought there tail gate 1 yr old 2500 western spreader at there auction $125.00


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## RUJusten (Dec 3, 2013)

I don't see how/why hourly is so difficult. My company has a super/foreman on each site (some are responsible for multiple sites that are close to each other). That super is responsible for making sure the shovelers/machine operators and plow pushers aren't milking the clock and slacking off - simple management 101. The super keeps track of the hours and submits them electronically to the office. This isn't rocket science folks....and before y'all get excited, there's more than one way to skin a cat.


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## Diesel Dan (Sep 8, 2012)

I sub my truck and backhoe by the hour, wherever the guy I work for sends me. Some lots the company I work for bills "per push" some are hourly billing.

Anybody from Michigan? There's a real estate company called Eyde that pretty much owns the entire quaint little burg of Lansing, have properties in Ohio and Florida they are all hourly plows and do they're own (very little) salting. They seem to make ends meet.


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## Emans_scapes (Dec 25, 2013)

SnoFarmer;1737027 said:


> Because if it was truly a zero tolerance lot, when it's snowing someone would need to be on site.
> 
> The Doctors that I'm plowing for wouldn't complain if I did camp out and keep the place clear
> as there kind of anal but I have other clients and other things that require my time.
> ...


I miss read your previous post I guess. You said you plow every time an extra 1/4" falls on the ground. We have 4 different crews of guys and equipment on each side of town. All accounts on each side of town are within 1-2 miles of each other. We plow business' that run 24/7. Large manufacturing companys. We have people watching for snow who will call the lead guy for each side of town. They call the rest of the guys in. We go in when 1/2" is on the ground. Start plowing. We might send one truck to start doing alleyways at each location. Send the loaders to start taking the bulk out of the loading docks. We do this until the snow has stopped. Then we start to do a final clean up and salt. After a snow storm we usually go in the next 2 nights to clean up any stalls that have opened up or any loading docks that emptied out. The reason by the hour works for us is, there will be times where the company will call and tell you they want to move all the semi trailers out of the docks and clean them all up. Do you figure stuff like this in your seasonal or per push? I realize everyone does things differently we have 30+ Guys that plow a couple hundred acres of pavement.


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## Emans_scapes (Dec 25, 2013)

We haul out most of our places. And spread 3/8" chips on anything that's gravel. I think it would be tough to do a per push or seasonal.


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## Chineau (Aug 24, 2010)

What is in the contract? Everyone has their own way, cool, is the customer happy, are you making money? Me I have a blended customer base some per pay for season, some monthly contract and some by the hour. What matters to me are my customers happy, do they pay their bill, is ther positive cash flow through my account each month, is it still fun? Each region will have it's own customs take the good stuff use it in your show and out plow the competition, oh yeah and get out fishing it is good for you. Peace.


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## jrs.landscaping (Nov 18, 2012)

We have seasonal and hourly.

My question is, if you have dedicated machinery to a zero tolerance site and is there from beginning to end what would constitute a push? Is it scraping the entire facility for one cycle? I'm just trying to figure depending on snowfall you could cycle the property on a 4" storm the same amount you would for 7" depending on snowfall. How is that billed, what if cars or trailers are moved and need to be scraped after the fact is that 1/2 a push?

I guess it really depends on the lot and location


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