# insurance as a sub contactor



## fordboy (Nov 24, 2005)

wondering what you all are carrying for insurance as a sub. WOndering if I should plan on doing somthing different as far as insurance next season as i belive our season is pretty much done.Thanks for the input


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

What do you think a sub is?

A sub, is a contractor who is hired to do a job by an other contractor.

I'm a contractor, I have a lot that I want to hire out.
I hire an other contractor to plow it, they just became a sub-contractor and I became the general contractor.

An employee is not a sub nor is a substitute plower a sub.

So set up your business, go legit, become a contractor and get the proper commercial ins.

Don't let the name sway you, plowing residential drives is commercial work, anytime money passes hands it is commercial work.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

SnoFarmer;535437 said:


> What do you think a sub is?


Isn't it one of those things that goes underwater with torpedoes and missiles?

Or are you talking about a sub sandwich?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mark Oomkes;535441 said:


> Isn't it one of those things that goes underwater with torpedoes and missiles?
> 
> Or are you talking about a sub sandwich?


lol
sub par
sub prime.
sub standard

Your a contractor if you run your Binky from start to finish.
Your a sub contractor if you don't.......


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## fordboy (Nov 24, 2005)

This is the situation, I have been working for a friend for the last four years. When I started working for him I was told I was covered by his insurance because I recieved a 1099 from him and all contracts were in his name. Never checked to verify but trusted him to be honest and have worked under that assumption for the last four years. This year everything started off great but as the year as progressed he has tried not to use me as much as he normally would. Since I have made friends in the industry over the years I recieved phone calls from others asking me to pick up work for them when they heard I was not staying busy working for him. I agreed and am not having trouble finding work for the most part but now am cocerned about liability. Should I just pull a business liscense and insurance? Generaly how much am I looking at for insurance? I am sure it varys from state to state. Now sno farmer made the comment to go legit, I believe I have been legit since we have been filing the 1099, am I assuming correct? thanks for the input.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Now don't get mad at me..
But I believe your "friend has been taking advantage of you.
He should have filed a w2?...
Read this site and think about what happened regardless of the 1099.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html.

Subcontractor or general contractor you would have your own INS and allready be liget..You were an employee. There is nothing wrong with that it's just the facts..

It's not a state thing it's a Federal thing.

So go out there and start a business and be a contractor..

.


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## scottL (Dec 7, 2002)

He could file a W2 or 1099. The case could be argued wither way.

Get your own insurance any way. A 1mi/3mil general contractors policy that includes snow plowing is cheap, $200-$500 a year. If for some reason the guy you work for his insurance has an issue or if he turns on you you would be covered. Unless he has his insurance company issue you a statement directly showing you covered ... your not covered until it hits court.


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## bluerage94 (Dec 24, 2004)

I agree it could go either way... Employee's should get a W2 and if he is subbing out jobs to you usually a 1099 which benefits him.


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## BulldogPS (Nov 23, 2007)

I would highly recommend liability insurance if you plan to work for yourself at all. If you damage property plowing something that is not an account of the person who contracted you, they can sue you personally. You could end up paying a lot out of pocket. Insurance was not cheap, but it beats selling your stuff.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

If you are subbing to me, you are carrying your own snow plowing liability insurance, and my company is a named insured of yours.
That's not uncommon, that's what I would expect to sub for anyone else also

That's why Sub's make 50/60/70+ dollars per hour and employees make $20.


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

With friends like that, I could do without any. Get a copy of his insurance policy showing it covers subcontractors or, better yet, get your own. If you rely on his insurance, make sure the company notifies you of any changes or cancellation.


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## tuney443 (Jun 25, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;535441 said:


> Isn't it one of those things that goes underwater with torpedoes and missiles?
> 
> Or are you talking about a sub sandwich?


NO,no,no--it's like a subpoena----sub--sub----means under water or maybe submarine
poena,poena---like a *****---that's IT---it's when the government has you by the balls.:redbounce


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## jjklongisland (Nov 13, 2006)

Had to ressurrect thread... Same thing is kind of happaneing with me, I plow for a landscaper who I thought I was covered under his policy, gave him copy of my registration and drivers license. He now says I am not covered after a year working for him and recommends me getting my own policy. I consider myslef a Sub because I am using my own personal equipments and I do not get a W-2 from him. Now mind you, I do this for extra cash and because its fun to me. With 4 storms last year, I didnt exactly rake in the bucks. If I have to spend $1000 on insurance and only get 4 storms like last year it doesnt make sense for me to plow. Now in my area, tons of people take there chance every storm just working for a landscaper and dont have any extra insurance. What should I do?


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

jjklongisland;605643 said:


> ..What should I do?


Buy Commercial Vehicle an General Liability insurance

or

Be uninsured.

Just doing it for "extra cash" means nothing to the IRS or legal system. A judge will not consider whether this was the first time you plowed for cash or the tenth year.


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## bcf (Oct 29, 2003)

*Get insured...*

... besides all the other reasons, if you don't you have no reason to call someone a lowballer.


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## jjklongisland (Nov 13, 2006)

Well I have never called anybody a lowballer and I would love to get insurance but it just doesnt make sense. I do not live in the snowbelt where there are 40 events a season and make $30,000 a year plowing. We get 4 to 8 a year and I do it for some extra money. Where I live plow guys are few and far between. I would guess 75% of the snow removal companies by me hire uninsured subs to plow for them because thats the only way the snow gets moved. I cant be a lowballer if I am working for a large contractor who pays me by the hour to assist in the snow removal process. I dont make the contracts. And another thing. In NY owner operators get paid on the low end $65 per hour and sometimes $100 an hour. That just goes to show you that plow guys are in demand and there is no whoring of the business down by me.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Mick;605836 said:


> Buy Commercial Vehicle an General Liability insurance
> 
> or
> 
> ...


X2.

Then jjklongisland your not plowing for extra cash yet.
You don't make the minimum to cover your expenses of being business.

If you hurt someone and you loose the law sute you could loose everything your truck, house, and pay for it for the rest fo your life.
Now does it cost to much?

do you have your own business like an LLC?


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## ducatirider944 (Feb 25, 2008)

If you are hired as a sub to push snow, you should be ok with getting a rider on your auto insurance policy. You will be held responsible for anything you hit with your truck! The person you sub to will probably be doing the sanding and salting, so they will be responsible for slip and falls. If you are being subbed for plowing of snow and salting you better have general liability, because you are responsible for making the lot safe. It doesn't really matter to me becuase I already have a 2 mil per accident GL policy for construction with a snow removal rider. Having insuance is a scam right up to the point of needing it! I already have one the bet, I can pay insuance for the rest of my life and still be money ahead! They got the short end of the stick with me finding a concrete wall at a race track. My hospital bills were pushing $900K so I feel insurance is good!


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## Mick (May 19, 2001)

Do what you want to do. Just realize that the only one you are convincing is yourself. You're the one who has to live with the results of your actions.

This is not aimed at you, DucatiRider. It just happens to be below your post.


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## jjklongisland (Nov 13, 2006)

SnoFarmer;606652 said:


> X2.
> 
> Then jjklongisland your not plowing for extra cash yet.
> You don't make the minimum to cover your expenses of being business.
> ...


You are correct, it is totally not worth it if it costs me $3500 per year for insurance just to make $4000 total.

My biggest gripe is because I do this part time and make so little, I do not have the same risk as a person plowing 40 times per year making lots more money. The insurance companies are against the guy like myself who is just looking to make a little extra cash. I could see the policy being $500 for someone like myelf but for what I will be doing its ridiculous.

The sad thing is I really enjoy to plow. I just wish I can find a gig where I drive someone elses truck who is insured and just get paid per hour. But that might not pay. If I am getting out of bed to plow snow after working a 50 hour week at my regular job, I better be making $50 per driving someone elses machinery...


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## bltp203 (Nov 5, 2006)

Is that what insurance would be for you....$3500? Mine is $1600, but I look at it this way. I have to pay $900 per year for auto insurance anyways. So for the extra $700 I have a 1 million dollar policy and make way more then that in a season. You may make good money uninsured, but you will make GREAT money if you are insured.


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## jjklongisland (Nov 13, 2006)

You also live in Michigan which gets much more snow events than Long Island and you have your own accounts. I work as a sub and as a sub I am responsible for my own insurance. I make the same weather I have it or not.


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## bltp203 (Nov 5, 2006)

Sorry I didn't point it out earlier, but I am a sub. 

If you can make the same with out insurance then have at it. I know the company I sub for has uninsured guys also but they also make $25 less per hour then I do. Also, I am at the top of the list when its time to get called out....uninsured guys fill in where needed.

It's a personal choice. But once I found I could make good money AND be completely legit, it made plowing all that much more enjoyable.


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## fordboy (Nov 24, 2005)

I will say I ended up getting my own insurance with a rider on my auto by going to commercial auto insurance. The diference was 34 dollars a year from my personal auto insurance. A great piece of mind for 34 dollars.


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