# Building an Electric Liquid Unit



## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm looking at completing my liquid unit for my Toyota. Currently have a custom mounted 60 gallon unit on a stainless steel platform with a 5.3GPM Delavan diaphragm pump. I use this in the summer months for another aspect of my business, but I want to convert it to ice control for the winter. The pump is "on demand". 3.8GPM @ 40PSI. I use a 1/2" pneumatic style quick connect in the summer. When I connect the fittings there is flow, as soon as I disconnect it stops. For the de-icing I need to add an electric solenoid valve to get that on-off control from the cab.

I would like to have anti-icing and de-icing capabilities, this requires to sets of nozzles obviously. For Anti-Icing I believe I want 4 heads. 2 to spray behind the truck and one on each end of the boom to spray past the truck. This way I can select which nozzles are open depending on how wide I need to spray. less waste and overlap this way. To do this I will need 4 solenoids. (Dema - 1/4" MNPT 12V solenoid (Normally closed) $33/ea).

For De-Icing I will need more heads but less configurations. I believe I will have 8 heads (12" spacing to give a working width of 7' directly behind the Toyota). I will feed this with a 1/2" and 1 solenoid. (Dema - 1/2" MNPT 12V solenoid (Normally Closed) $53/ea).

Does this sound like a good starting point?


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## jkitterman (Jan 28, 2004)

What is the material application rate? Will 60 gallons @ 3.8 gpm last long enough? When does the tank actually run dry, 90%?


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

I get 99% out of a tank; there is a sump where the plumbing is. Also I don't do any major applications so I have no need for a larger setup yet. When that comes along I will outfit my F350 with a 350 gallon tank and a gas motor/pump setup.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

any one else have anything to add? Need to order parts tomorrow


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## MMike (Dec 6, 2006)

Interesting post! Are you concerned about drift? How close to the ground are the spray nozzels? What about a remote hose or a remote hose port that would allow you to "plug in" and apply liquid deicer to areas inaccessable with the truck? A remote hose might also allow you to cirulate or drain the tank. just a thought.

Are there any post and notify regulations with useing de-iceing chemicals similar to pesticides? I'm unfimiliar with deiceing chems.


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## Grn Mtn (Sep 21, 2004)

MMike;330608 said:


> Interesting post!  Are you concerned about drift? How close to the ground are the spray nozzels? What about a remote hose or a remote hose port that would allow you to "plug in" and apply liquid deicer to areas inaccessable with the truck? A remote hose might also allow you to cirulate or drain the tank. just a thought.
> 
> Are there any post and notify regulations with useing de-iceing chemicals similar to pesticides? I'm unfimiliar with deiceing chems.


I believe its 22" off the ground is what most are set at (I don't remember the exact number but I know I am close). No regulations as of yet for deicing.

Stateline, what was your final verdict with last winters liquid test? Were you able to find a distributor? or what type did you settle with?


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## jkitterman (Jan 28, 2004)

For the 4 sprayer head config, do you need 4 solenoids? Could you do it with two. I would guess the the middle 2 heads will always be used together and the outside 2 heads would both be on together also if you wanted max width. Is that right? For the 8 head deicing, would you be reusing the 4 anti-icing heads with extra heads in between? Are you just doubling the application rate for deicing?


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

MMike. Drift isn't the biggest concern I have but certainly possible. In theory I would be applying product before the storm gets there and hopefully there should be less/no wind at that time. If I was apply during a storm and high winds it would be with the solid stream nozzles. As for Height. It depends on what nozzles I go with and how I design the bar. I have 24" to the bottom of the bumper. 30" to the bed height. Where I place the bar will determine the nozzles. 

I want to keep it either below the bumper or sandwich it between the bumper and the body to protect it if I get rear ended and so I don't smash it up backing into something. 

Grn Mtn,
I was very happy with the liquid tests I did. It seemed to work well in all conditions except when we had rain before hand. I was too late to apply. The Magic Salt did however work quite well since I was applying on top of a 1/4" of sleet and ice.

My distributor is about a half hour ride unfortunately, but then again I don't plan on using a whole lot this year as I don't want to take on too much work. It's Scotts Landscaping in New Milford. Last years price was $2.50/Gal for Magic -0. I need to call later today and see what they have it priced at this year. I have two portable 65 Gallon tanks I can use plus my 60 gallon skid sprayer. With the Nurse tank I could do pile treatments for small outfits that have salt but no liquid capabilities. If the demand is there I will buy a 350Gal storage/nurse unit which I will then turn into a Skid Sprayer for the F350


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

jkitterman;330685 said:


> For the 4 sprayer head config, do you need 4 solenoids? Could you do it with two. I would guess the the middle 2 heads will always be used together and the outside 2 heads would both be on together also if you wanted max width. Is that right? For the 8 head deicing, would you be reusing the 4 anti-icing heads with extra heads in between? Are you just doubling the application rate for deicing?


 I suppose I could loose one solenoid in the middle two heads and jump to a bigger flow solenoid which would save about $10 of build cost. But that could cost me much more in over applied product if I found myself having to overlap 22-24" because I couldn't turn that other head off. It was a good idea at first, but I think I will stick to as much flexibility as possible.

For the 8head de-icing I will using 8 different style heads. The anti-icing nozzles put out a fan spray. For De-Icing you need solid stream to concentrate the liquid. This burns through the snow or ice pack much better. I do not know what the gallons/1K Ft2 is for de-icing. But I will have to assume its a little more than the anti-icing application rate. All this is determined by nozzle selection and speed.

I have to tune up the toyota first as its got a vacuum leak effecting the idle, but my plan is to apply in 2nd gear @ idle speed in 4x4low which is around 4mph. As soon as I get the idle fixed I will get that speed (gps) and work it into my calculations.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

here is my tank. It's a Fimco 60 Gallon mounted on a custom stainless steel skid. You can make out the plumbing coming out from the left center to the pump. The red line will be connected to the manifold. I still have pretty good visibility out the back window too. More pictures as the parts come in and I start assembling.


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## mmaddox (Dec 13, 2006)

*Liquid application equipment*

The local A. E. Staley plant (now Tate & Lyle) has a product made from corn syrup that has been used for 2-3 years for anti-icing (applied before snowfall/freezing rain). We have been spraying it on with our floation applicator. It's wild to have six lanes of an Interstate closed and running down it with a 90 foot boom. Seems to work very well. The rate varied (depending on past applications and weather), I would guess the average to be around 4-5 gallons per acre. A 1800 gallon tank would about 40 miles of six lane road, more with a narrow roadbed. We used flood nozzles. No experience with usage as a de-icer. I would suggest you consider quick couplers to speed nozzle changes. Do you research on nozzles as to mount ht. and spray width (22" and 30" respectively are common on small nozzles) . Two nozzles should cover the truck width, and if you want/need to go wider, figure on some type of fold out boom. Really no need for an electric valve, use no-drip nozzle bodies (check valves that shut the flow off when it drops below a set pressure), and switch the pump on and off. Depending on what material you might be spraying, most of the electric, pilot operated valves will not work well with the heavier materials. Manually control the possible boom nozzles, you would probably be folding the booms by hand anyway. BTW, there are application monitors that would make setting the rate easier.


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## GSE (Dec 17, 2004)

mmaddox;335537 said:


> The rate varied (depending on past applications and weather), I would guess the average to be around 4-5 gallons per acre.


I'm quite new to liquids myself, but have done a ton of research in the offseason. The manufactures of the corn based products you mentioned all suggest about 1 gallon per 1000 sq ft. That's closer to 44 gallons per acre on average, and I believe that's for an anti-icing application.


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## RacerBren (Nov 6, 2005)

For Liquid Magic the rate is about 35 gals per acre. Caliber is similar with maybe a little more needed.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

RacerBren;335760 said:


> For Liquid Magic the rate is about 35 gals per acre. Caliber is similar with maybe a little more needed.


I'm calibrating mine for 1250 Ft^2 per gallon for pre-treating. Still haven't decided what for de-icing. I guess it will depend on how bad conditions are really.


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## mmaddox (Dec 13, 2006)

*Pre-treating*

We did run some rates at the higher volumes, all I did was spray the product on at the rates they spec'ed. I don't even know results. The lower rates were on dry pavement, after several treatments. We have not done any this, yet. I do knw that they (the State) has set up some plow trucks with dumps with poly tanks in the beds. Appears that tests are still being conducted, both with rates and equipment. I did notice that higher rates did tend to allow some run-off. Of course costs add up when comparing a lot to miles of road.


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## hoosier (Nov 23, 2006)

Just to make it interesting,Ill throw this in for everyone to chew on. After seeing the success of several of my customers using liquid products, I highly recommend streaming product instead of spraying. A piece of PVC pipe with 1/8" holes every 6" works very well.
You can piggyback this with your spray bar and switch between the two.
One advantage is with the streams 6' apart this leave a traction surface between streams until it can dehydrate.Another thing is you can get a better visual as you apply the product , to assure your not applying too much.one of my customers that has used this method the longest sez..'If it puddles your going to slow.if it skips your going too fast.. as long as you have a steady stream its JUST right' Not too technical,but his help seems to get along fine with it.
Each product rate is different,we recommend 11-18 gal per lane mile for anti-icing (10 ' width) Rates very with ground temps,humidity ,and other conditions
For mounting your bar,consider using your trailer hitch receiver. mount the bar on a frame that slides into receiver ,then stows away when not in use.
Just my 2 cents


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

my first thought was to go with a bar for the 2" receiver. There is just a nagging thought of me backing into a lightpole, snow/ice bank or getting clipped by another car and then being out of service because my bar is busted. 

I ordered a set of timbrens for the front and rear of the Toyota and a set for the rear of my F350 today too


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## forestfireguy (Oct 7, 2006)

In speaking to some of the guys around the shop who have considerable exp. with liquids here is the way to apply. If you can count on traffic use stream nozzles for everything, your traffic will spread the product. If low traffic is likely use fan nozzles to apply for anti icing and stream nozzles for de-icing the idea being to get the product to the pavement. The idea is to prevent or break the bond between the snow/ icepack and the pavement so it can be scraped away by your plows/pushers. There is little melting quality to many liquids. Especially the non choride ones. I am new to the liquid game but this is my understanding thus far.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

Spent the last day playing with Excel and countless pdf's of nozzle tips and possibilities. I had looked at going to boomless and using a boominator nozzle or two, but I prefer flexibility and as little waste as possible since its such a small tank to start with. I think I am going to stick with my original design. with my combination of nozzle tips I have the ability to spray as little as 3'3" or as much as 17' 6" and 4 combinations in between. I can't get that flexibility out of a boomless setup without many different nozzles ($100+ ea!)

I will be making an 80" Wet/Dry boom. The dry boom will be for anti-icing. I will use 2 SS-TP8008-EVS for the center tips. I will use 2 SS-0CSS12 tips for the outer tips. I will be able to achieve 70" throw from each outer tip, so I won't have to have a big boom like most trucks have. Each inner tip is rated @ .8 GPM @40psi which will be my spray pressure. The outer tips are 1.2 GPM x 2 = 2.4GPM, 2x.8 = 1.6GPM. My pump can sustain 3.8GPM indefinitely @ 40PSI. Spraying speed will be 3.5MPH (idle speed in 1st gear low, also by GPS). and I will drop the pressure down to 35PSI to maintain 4GPM

Section #1 - 66", Section #2 - 39", Section #3 - 39", Section #4 - 66"

This allows 6 combinations of spraying widths.
1 - 17'6"
2 - 12' 
3 - 8'9"
4 - 6'6"
5 - 5'6"
6 - 3'3"

I will have to play with the wet-boom end. Meaning the liquid will flow-through the boom (eliminating the need to buy tips once I find the right diameter hole to drill) Probably start with PVC since its cheaper than stainless steel, but I will drill some holes in it to make the de-icing streams. 80" boom with the ends. holes will be @ 0, 10,20,30,40,50,60,80" (more or less). I think I want to flow about 5GPM @10PSI out to be effective @ 3.5MPH


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

I Built the spray bar, mounted it on a stainless steel sheet to a pintle hook plate. This will make truck-swapping easy (if I ever move it). I used some .5gpm tip's to do the tests (what I had available at the time) and by golly it does work! I still need to make the wet-boom aspect, but that isn't as important to me right now.










Here is a trial run, I made more adjustments after taking this picture to take care of the under -spray in the center. I ran out of "dry" driveway to test on, so I don't have any updated pictures. That was with only the two center heads on. 80* tips, .5gpm, 3.5mph. 24" off the ground. The outside heads also have 80* tips in them for the time being since I didn't have any off-center tips handy. I currently have them turned off with manual ball valves and both centers are on.










The tip holders I bought automatically turn off @ 10PSI so when I turn off the pump it turns off the tips almost instantly. I will add the solenoids when they come in next week so I can control the width of the spray from the cab on the fly.

Heres a shot of the whole thing with the fisher mounted up. Timbrens make a big difference. There is 30 gallons (240lbs) of water in the tank for the test plus 65 for the tank and a full fuel tank.


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## DAFFMOBILEWASH (Dec 9, 2006)

*Good Start*

The wind will be your largest problem. 0 Degree tips are the way to go. Keep in mind to use less than reqired to prevent slip and falls, expecially when there are huge teperature fluxuations. Also use washer fluid to flush out the system in between uses, this will greatly improve the pumps life span. Just install a T before the pump with gate valves on both inlet sides.

Good luck and be carefull. 
DAFF


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

The Master On/off is on the right "safety switch". The 4 center switches control which solenoids open up on the bar, (Left wing, Left Center, Right Center, Right Wing). The left Safety switch is for the 5th solenoid which will open up the de-icing spray bar. I used a 6way connector I found at Radioshack for the solenoid wires + ground. There are separate power/ground wires hidden inside the loom which I still have to wire up separately.



here's the Master On, and L + R Centers also On


Here is the new Dema - 474PT-12 Solenoid. 1/2" ports, 12V, normally closed. I bought 5 of these.


Also, fresh off the UPS truck are the new tips I ordered. I decided to go with 110* tips to get them lower to the ground to combat the wind problems people warned me about.

Teejet XR 11008VK Ceramic tips, .8GPM


More pics as I assemble.


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## Snowdog22 (Jan 11, 2007)

I have a liquid unit in my 92' F250 with a 100 gallon tank that uses two 5 gpm pumps. I have 6 tips on my bar but it is split so each pump feeds 3 tips. I think when you got to use your rig in parking lots and larger areas that you might find that you have to go to slow to get the right amount of liquid out. Just my input, if it helps.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

Snowdog22;354206 said:


> I have a liquid unit in my 92' F250 with a 100 gallon tank that uses two 5 gpm pumps. I have 6 tips on my bar but it is split so each pump feeds 3 tips. I think when you got to use your rig in parking lots and larger areas that you might find that you have to go to slow to get the right amount of liquid out. Just my input, if it helps.


I already thought of that. I'm calibrated for 3.5 mph for a good cover.

The 5.3gpm pump will feed the wings, and the 2.1gpm pump will feed the center two.

I should have it finished up... well, usuable by this afternoon. Hopefully get to try it out on this little storm tonight.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

Inside of the switch Box.


Tank, Solenoids,Hoses


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## Mark Witcher (Feb 21, 2004)

Those magnetic selonoids are going to be a source of downtime,grief and money by next season.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

Mark Witcher;358858 said:


> Those magnetic selonoids are going to be a source of downtime,grief and money by next season.


what do you know that I don't?


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## Mark Witcher (Feb 21, 2004)

There is a steel shaft inside those valves that the magnet pulls on. After time the deice will work past the shaft seal and corode the hell out of things and then it wont function any more. Been there , done that. I use an electric ball valve. No steel parts to rust.
Also you are going to want a bigger pump and nozzles. 3.5 mph is slow. I use a 9.5 gallon electric pump and 20 straight stream nozzles, 9 ft application width. Travel speed is 10MPH plus.


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## J J Landscaping (Dec 10, 2004)

*J J Landscaping*

Very nice unite and nice work. I want to make a unite like yours just to de-ice. Are state went to liquid and my town is using it this year. Some of the big shopping centers here are going to it. Please keep me posted on the de-ice. An i thank the guys that added input to your unite. All info will help me with mine. Show the pic,s this is very helpful. Jimmy - [email protected]


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

Mark Witcher;359387 said:


> There is a steel shaft inside those valves that the magnet pulls on. After time the deice will work past the shaft seal and corode the hell out of things and then it wont function any more. Been there , done that. I use an electric ball valve. No steel parts to rust.
> Also you are going to want a bigger pump and nozzles. 3.5 mph is slow. I use a 9.5 gallon electric pump and 20 straight stream nozzles, 9 ft application width. Travel speed is 10MPH plus.


are you spraying salt brine? AFAIK Magic -0 (what I'm spraying) is non corrosive.

Re: speed. I would have a bigger pump setup, however this is a small rig. I'm obviously not going to be treating roads or strip malls.


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## Snowdog22 (Jan 11, 2007)

They say that the deicer will not rust anything but it will over time. No matter what liquid you are using they all have some sort of corrision factor. The tips you are using may plug on you during a snow storm if you use them then plow for a while and then try to use them again. Mine did. I went to just using 1/4" barbs that just point down to the ground. The state of Iowa uses this theory. It gives you a faster flow and faster ground speed. Just tryin' to help. Good luck


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## Mark Witcher (Feb 21, 2004)

Im using calcium chloride, very corrosive. All chloride products are. Less than salt but still bad.


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## J J Landscaping (Dec 10, 2004)

*J J Landscaping*

Snowdog22 - I am very interested in your set-up. It sounds to be simple and work very good. Could you give me some info on the 5 gpm pumps you are running and a little detail on set-up. I am going to build a set-up for just de-iceing 60 gal. tank, 2 pumps. 1 for the main tube on the bumper and 1 for the fold-out wings on each side. Your set-up sounds very close to what i want to make. Info and any advise you give would be very helpful and appreciated. Jimmy


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## J J Landscaping (Dec 10, 2004)

*J J Landscaping*

Mark Witcher - Your set-up sounds almost like the one snowdog22 made. 10 - 15 mph is a good speed. Could you please tell me about your set-up, your pump and why you went with 20 nozzles. I will run 2 pumps, main tube with 4 nozzles, 2 wings 4ft.long with 2 or 3 nozzles. Mine will be for de-ice. Your info and any advice is very welcome. Jimmy


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## Snowdog22 (Jan 11, 2007)

J J Landscaping;361998 said:


> Snowdog22 - I am very interested in your set-up. It sounds to be simple and work very good. Could you give me some info on the 5 gpm pumps you are running and a little detail on set-up. I am going to build a set-up for just de-iceing 60 gal. tank, 2 pumps. 1 for the main tube on the bumper and 1 for the fold-out wings on each side. Your set-up sounds very close to what i want to make. Info and any advise you give would be very helpful and appreciated. Jimmy


The 5 gpm pumps are your regular on demand pumps. I have a 100 gallon tank and valve on the tank and ran to a filter then two lines from the filter to each pump. I ran 1" lines to everything. From each pump there is a 1" line to the bar. I used 1 inch quick connects on each line to make it easy to take the bar on and off. The bar has a valve in middle which is closed but just in case one pump goes down I can close the valve from the pump to the bar and open the center valve and still run with one pump. I also put a fence row nozzle one the drivers side to shoot sidewalks from the road with a seperate valve. Its great, the one tip shoots about eight feet. For kicks on one pump I set up some valves to fill my 455 sprayer from the truck, using it as tanker. I hope this helps. Good luck, John


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## J J Landscaping (Dec 10, 2004)

*J J Landscaping*

Thank you John - This is very helpful and i may have a question or 2 in time. You kept yours simple, My fathers rule was to always try to make something on the simplest form. Less things to go wrong. I do like your sidewalk shooter you did a very nice job and sounds like you are very happy with :waving: :waving: :waving: the way in is working. I,m keeping a print out of all the ones that are close to what i need and of the guys that have added info and good advice in this threads. Straight salt and liquid tank set-ups are just starting here. If i have it in my truck for next winter there will be only 2 of us contractors with it. Thanks again and if any one has anything to add or about what you guys use for liquid let me here it. Its all welcome. Jimmy


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

Got my first real run in with the setup tonight . I had some problems in testing with the solenoids sticking open, The springs inside weren't quite long enough, so I stretched them out a little and everything was good to go. 

I also shortened my spray bar down to about 6'6" to keep it in the width of the truck so I don't hook it and rip it off (don't ask). I flared up the ends with my pipe bender to achieve a 6'6" throw with the side tips. 

3.5mph is perfect for doing driveways, any faster and it would be too tricky in tight areas. It's certainly not the hare of the race, but its very good so far. Hopefully we get at least some inclimate weather now.

I'll take pictures of everything tomorrow outside.


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

I mounted the switch box on the transmission hump. Very easy to access but still out of the way in the cab. You can also see my plow control on the stick shift, It works great there. 


Here is the bar with the new flared up ends to keep the width down.


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## korelandscaping (Mar 1, 2001)

Stateline...if you don't mind me asking, how much did that project run you? I have a 250 gallon poly tank and I was thinking about making a set up like yours. I don't know anything about liquids but I'm doing alot of research. Any info would be appreciated...Thanks


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## BSDeality (Dec 5, 2005)

korelandscaping;367457 said:


> Stateline...if you don't mind me asking, how much did that project run you? I have a 250 gallon poly tank and I was thinking about making a set up like yours. I don't know anything about liquids but I'm doing alot of research. Any info would be appreciated...Thanks


I've lost count at this point. 

I had the tank, both the pumps already but if you had to buy them seperately you could expect to pay around $125 for the tank, $150 for the big pump.

Each solenoid was $55 
tips were $6-9/ea
nozzle bodies were $5/ea ish

then you need switches, hose, 20 or 30 some odd plumbing connections, etc.


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## Snowdog22 (Jan 11, 2007)

Korelandscaping, I built my liquid rig with two 5 gallon pumps and valves to use the pumps to fill my tank and to pump off the truck to my 455, 6 tip bar and a digital meter for around $1300. That does not include the tank, I already had one. Pretty cheap considering they wanted around $3500 for a rig around here. Hope this helps


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## korelandscaping (Mar 1, 2001)

Thanks for the replies.. I have two sanders and I'm looking to go with one liquid and one for sand. Is there a good place online to get the parts needed ie pumps,nozzles,hoses,etc. Pics of some more set ups would help...Thanks


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