# So After Firing My Plow Guy....



## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

....I finally broke down and joined all you denizens of the snow and ice world. I bought a new Boss Vee for my 3500 Sierra. I'm located in Western, MA.

After not bothering to come in the morning for our first big storm of the season on 11/21, my plow guy arrived that afternoon after it was already half melted on unfrozen ground and was piling the pea stone from my 300ft drive out onto the lawn for the last time!

I've been reading a lot about snow clearing and the business side of things so thanks in advance to all of you veterans for the info you share. The laughs too....already read some great banter.

I'll begin this year by clearing my own property and helping out friends and family but I am considering working next summer on possibly adding a spreader and setting up some contracts. I have a 19 year old son who can help too. I'm a high school shop teacher and since I get a snow day off every time we get a storm, it's kind of a natural fit plus I'm always up early in the mornings.

So that's my story and I apologize in advance for being a Patriots fan!


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

what ya going to do when it starts to snow at 6am and there is 3-4" by noon.
i'm sure they don't close school for a few inches of snow?.

your clients well feel just like you did......




PS welcome to plowsite.


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

I'm thinking that my son can fill in for the most part and we get early dismissals.

In extreme events, I'd need to leave work but if it's only residential work, most folks are gone to work during that time, no?

I know that I've had to wait till later in the day for those long light snow accumulations from all of the plow guys I've had over the years. I guess that's something to be discussed with the customer.

Thanks for the heads up~


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

...but specifically for a storm that's gonna start at 6 and leave any significant accumulation, for my district, that's a snow day.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

They still have shop teachers?


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

kimber750 said:


> They still have shop teachers?


Oh man, it gets harder by the year and of course, it has to be called Technology Education but I don't need to back away from the term shop. I do a lot with graphics, photography and printing but I also have a metal shop where we plasma cut, lathe, mill, weld and fabricate.

How we determine and label who's smart in schools is a shame these days. I have brilliant shop students who are on their way to being brilliant trade dudes like I imagine a number this forum's members are. Of course, they don't always get recognized if they don't put the correct answer down in a State testing answer booklet.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

NEhomer said:


> Oh man, it gets harder by the year and of course, it has to be called Technology Education but I don't need to back away from the term shop. I do a lot with graphics, photography and printing but I also have a metal shop where we plasma cut, lathe, mill, weld and fabricate.
> 
> How we determine and label who's smart in schools is a shame these days. I have brilliant shop students who are on their way to being brilliant trade dudes like I imagine a number this forum's members are. Of course, they don't always get recognized ir they don't put the correct answer down in a State testing answer booklet.


I remember two teachers from my long past school days. My high school shop teacher and the little lady in middle school that paddled me. IMO some type of shop/technology class should be required. Not just one semester, all 4 years of high school.

Well enough of that, make sure you look into insurance for plow. Most standard auto polices do not cover plowing. GL will protect you against slip and falls and also look into LLC/INC to protect your personal belongings. Remember why you fired your plow guy and don't duplicate his mistakes.


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

Thanks, yup. I've been reading a great deal about the entire business and wouldn't think of operating without sufficient insurance. Commercial plates are also required here.

We'll take it slow and easy~


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

It seems as though it's so much easier to be communicative with customers these days with texting and such.

I would have asked my guy not to come if we had better communication. We got 14 inches and a week later, it was gone. I knew that on 11/21 we were nowhere near a season long deep freeze.

How in touch per storm are you guys with your clients or do you try to set up expectations before the season?


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

NEhomer said:


> It seems as though it's so much easier to be communicative with customers these days with texting and such.
> 
> I would have asked my guy not to come if we had better communication. We got 14 inches and a week later, it was gone. I knew that on 11/21 we were nowhere near a season long deep freeze.
> 
> How in touch per storm are you guys with your clients or do you try to set up expectations before the season?


Things get way to confusing when you have to ask or be told by each customer whether or not to come. That is why you set standards in the fall before it snows. You either have a contract that says you will begin plowing at say 2in and continue plowing every 2-4 inches. Or you have a per trip where you charge say 45 dollars every time you plow. There are a lot of different aspects of the per trip. Everybody has there own way on that. I stick to mostly all contract because it's easier


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## Randall Ave (Oct 29, 2014)

My high school, no more shop, it's a shame. And in NJ, see a snow flake, close them schools.


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

snowplower1 said:


> Things get way to confusing when you have to ask or be told by each customer whether or not to come. That is why you set standards in the fall before it snows. You either have a contract that says you will begin plowing at say 2in and continue plowing every 2-4 inches. Or you have a per trip where you charge say 45 dollars every time you plow. There are a lot of different aspects of the per trip. Everybody has there own way on that. I stick to mostly all contract because it's easier


I understand that you have to plow anything significant in the heart of winter or of course you'll get frozen tire ruts that will haunt you later. My only real complaint is early on when it's a few inches with 50 degree weather predicted all week and my driveway ends up in the lawn.

I have no problem paying a man for his work.



Randall Ave said:


> My high school, no more shop, it's a shame. And in NJ, see a snow flake, close them schools.


That's a bummer. It's so bad these days that I actually have to show 14 year old boys how a pair of vice grip pliers operate. Cripes.

We have a big geographical region that serves our district and we also close at the threat of a few flakes.


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## snowplower1 (Jan 15, 2014)

Well around here at least, we plow regardless of the future temps. That's just the standard that has been set. When people leave for work or show up to there property they want to see no snow. 

And that's funny your guys schools close so fast. Where I grew up and live, it's not uncommon to see 6 inches of snow every couple days and our schools do not close. They only close when you can't see outside or a serious winter storm is here. Even if ones coming in the middle of the day they'll keep you there till it's too bad it. We get lake effect so it's normal to have a quick 4-6 inches in a couple hours


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

NEhomer said:


> ....I finally broke down and joined all you denizens of the snow and ice world. I bought a new Boss Vee for my 3500 Sierra.
> 
> I'll begin this year by clearing my own property and helping out friends and family but I am considering working next summer on possibly adding a spreader and setting up some contracts. I have a 19 year old son who can help too. I'm a high school shop teacher and since I get a snow day off every time we get a storm, it's kind of a natural fit plus I'm always up early in the mornings.
> 
> So that's my story and I apologize in advance for being a Patriots fan!


Nice post.

My HS Shop teacher(s) classes were both the best experiences I had back in HS. There were 2 at the time, and one eventually became the drafting class teacher as well. I spent a lot of time making tables, cabinets, cutting boards, bird houses, and bunch of other neat stuff a kid can do back in the day. Those times were the most memorable and satisfying, and ultimately what caused me to go into my contracting business I own today. 14 years on my own, and I pretty much owe it all to them for being allowed to do what I enjoy doing and making a living from it.

As matter of fact one of the teachers / drafting teacher became my construction mentor both through HS and college. I spent weekends and summers working with him, and eventually wound up working as a field super / PM for several large home builders, building multi-million dollar homes. They were fun times, as I love building / making stuff.

At one point about a year ago, I contacted my mentor, and I found out that he had retired from the HS to continue full time his contracting business. So, 30 years later, I found out where he was, went up there, bought him some lunch and expressed my deepest gratitude for what he had done for me, not only as a tradesman, but as a human. He imprinted a lot of different values, such as the love of jazz music, onto me. At the time, I hated it (the jazz music), but as I matured, it became apparent that music emotionally moved me, a whole lot more than the rock and metal I grew up on. Now I listen to all of it, rock, metal, swing, old jazz and new jazz. Kind of depends on what I'm doing at the time. Seems there's not a day I'm alive, I'm not listening to one kind of music or another.

It's really important the influence you (teachers) have on young adults, and I hope that your experiences that you had were as fulfilling as mine being one of their students. Great plow, BTW.

I love pushing snow around. Being in this climate, I don't get to enjoy it as much as you guys do, but to me, it's just a great time to be alone in the machine, clearing land, and envisioning being back as a kid in the sandbox with my tonka toys. Nothing is better than being out at 3 am with no one out but fellow plow jockeys, listening to music, and being PAID for it.

Hope you have as much fun as I do, pushing that snow around.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Contract starts November 1st for us. Any snowfall that reaches the trigger set in the contract gets plowed reguardless of future weather. If we run the route we run the route. Can't keep track of if one person wants it one way and someone else wants it another. If someone wants special conditional plowing then we offer to service them as an emergency service. They call we add them to the "get to it after the storm when have time" list and they pay 2-3 times as much as a contract holder, in cash, for the emergency plow. Just the way it is.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

NEhomer said:


> ..I apologize in advance for being a Patriots fan!


Recognize this place ?

Worked a trade show up there a few years back. Nice stadium.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Where is that?


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

Dogplow Dodge said:


> Nice post.
> 
> My HS Shop teacher(s) classes were both the best experiences I had back in HS. There were 2 at the time, and one eventually became the drafting class teacher as well. I spent a lot of time making tables, cabinets, cutting boards, bird houses, and bunch of other neat stuff a kid can do back in the day. Those times were the most memorable and satisfying, and ultimately what caused me to go into my contracting business I own today. 14 years on my own, and I pretty much owe it all to them for being allowed to do what I enjoy doing and making a living from it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great post dogplow, and yes I certainly do know Gillette Stadium....been there many times.


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

ktfbgb said:


> Contract starts November 1st for us. Any snowfall that reaches the trigger set in the contract gets plowed reguardless of future weather. If we run the route we run the route. Can't keep track of if one person wants it one way and someone else wants it another. If someone wants special conditional plowing then we offer to service them as an emergency service. They call we add them to the "get to it after the storm when have time" list and they pay 2-3 times as much as a contract holder, in cash, for the emergency plow. Just the way it is.


Hey man, I'm new to this site and all of this type of work so I'm not trying to be argumentative or contrarian but my only perspective as of yet is from the customer's. I know that will change.

...but I gotta ask, is it "just the way it is" or perhaps just the way you make it? For years I've had mild anxiety about what the heck is my plow guy gonna do this time? When's he gonna show up? How bad is my lawn gonna get gouged and so forth. I'm trying to think of new ways to be more communicative with clients as the technology is there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the complaining type and I've been generally satisfied with a few different plow guys. I'm just wondering if it can be done better.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Wasn't trying to sound argumentative, sorry it came across that way. The just the way it is comment was referring to the previous sentence in my comment. As a provider you service your contracted customers with a competitive price. If they want a contract with me then they sign a contract that has very specific terms of service. Everyone has the same trigger if your on a contract. If they don't like it then don't sign the contract. What you have to realize as a snow provider is that we can't provide reliable competitive service if everyone has a different trigger and different conditions. If you have 50 properties under contract and 7 have 2 inch trigger, 4 have 3 inches trigger, 5 only want service on odd days, and 2 only on even days, and then a couple have gravel drives that only want it done if the road is set up and frozen, etc. etc. You can see where it would be almost impossible to provide service like that. The customer only thinks about themselves, not about the other 49 customers the provider has. That was an extreme, slightly snarky example, but you get what I'm saying, and why everyone signs on for the same service with me?

Perhaps that's why you had problems in the past? The provider was trying to juggle different triggers for different customers? As for me I consider myself a professional so I wouldn't be pushing your gravel into you lawn, or scraping up the lawn. Would it happen occasionally where you might get a handful of rock or a little gouge in the lawn? Yes it would on a rare occasion, in such occasion i as the professional would then fix the damage on my dime. Could it be a case of finding the cheaper providers to service your property? To be able to be a professional, take responsibility for any damage I cause, provide dependable service that is the same all the time, I charge twice what a lot of guys are charging. You get what you pay for in all aspects of life.

Back to my just the way it is statement. For people who want special conditional snow removal they don't typically get a contract. At least from me. If they want it so that there is a different higher trigger than everyone else, that would depend on how frozen the gravel drive was, then I would offer them emergency service. They would call when they needed the plow that met their conditions. I would add them to the end of the list that gets done after all the contract holders. It would be pay in cash, and the rate would be at least double. So around here for someone with a gravel drive for an emergency plow I wouldn't do it for less than $100 cash. This is just the way it is. You pay a lot more for not being on contract and needing special conditions. 

Hope that clears it upThumbs Up


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

Nice novel, Tolstoy

I don't fix lawn dammage, or rake any gravel back onto the drive.
That is the lawnjockeys job.

I will replace the mailbox should I run it over.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Hey so I think that was a compliment? Tolstoy is reguarded by some as one of the best writers the world has ever seen. So thanks?


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

lol, I said it was nice.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Thumbs Up I can be a little slow.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Not referring to the OP, The unprepared always pay more than someone that is on your route. I work hard enough keeping up with my prepared clients. Not that I won't take one but this is rule of thumb. I agree with sno on stone drives. I'm not cleaning any stone that piles up. Even a rubber - poly edge will take some stone if not froze. Don't like it pave it.


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## RPM repairguy (Nov 25, 2016)

FredG said:


> Not referring to the OP, The unprepared always pay more than someone that is on your route. I work hard enough keeping up with my prepared clients. Not that I won't take one but this is rule of thumb. I agree with sno on stone drives. I'm not cleaning any stone that piles up. Even a rubber - poly edge will take some stone if not froze. Don't like it pave it.


I just had a new customer's caretaker wanting me to help him fix any dirt messed up next spring. I told him I do what I can to not tear up the edges but I can't control nature. If it isn't froze and it's within the drive, it's not my fault. I'm the plow guy, not the landscaper.


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## hbrady (Oct 28, 2003)

NEHomer, welcome to the site. I'm kind of like you, no commercial accounts but I plow my private road and a couple of neighbors driveways. I had to chuckle about your lawn, every spring the dear wife and I are out there fixing the ruts in the lawn and raking up piles of reclaim I deposited there over the winter. After 30+ years of plowing and adjusting my technique it still happens and every spring my wife grumbles at me as we clean up the mess 

GO PATS!


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

hbrady said:


> NEHomer, welcome to the site. I'm kind of like you, no commercial accounts but I plow my private road and a couple of neighbors driveways. I had to chuckle about your lawn, every spring the dear wife and I are out there fixing the ruts in the lawn and raking up piles of reclaim I deposited there over the winter. After 30+ years of plowing and adjusting my technique it still happens and every spring my wife grumbles at me as we clean up the mess
> 
> GO PATS!


Thanks, it's nice to have found this terrific site.

Oh man, I might be in for a lawn challenge.

...and is that GRONK painted on your plow?! Awesome. Too bad it looks like we've lost him again. His career could be over sadly.

I'm supposed to get my plow mounted on Thursday. At least I know my old plow guy isn't gonna come today after a 2 inch dusting and charge me 50 bucks just to tick me off!


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## hbrady (Oct 28, 2003)

Yea, I decided when I got the truck last year that I would call it Gronk. Bad move, probably jinxed the real Gronk. It isn't painted on, just a little photo editing  I'd have to agree, surgically repaired disks and football aren't going to mix well, too bad because he's a beast.

I've plowed our road for 30+ years all except for few years when I was too busy traveling for work. During those years the association hired it out. There was no formal contract / agreement (our bad) and the last year the guy plowed we got a new president who didn't pay him the day of the storm (like the old president did). Because of this we became a low priority. That combined with equipment problems meant I had to plow the road a few times with my tired old Tacoma. My business travel declined and I needed a new truck so I decided I'd take over the road again.

I don't have to count on anyone else now which is nice; however, people count on me which isn't always nice. One day last year my daughter got stuck and was blocking our road during a mid-day storm, I was stuck in a meeting I couldn't get out of. Guess who rescued my daughter and opened the road? The former plow guy who just happened to be driving by. He didn't even ask for payment, just did it and carried on with his route. He will be getting a Christmas card and a Dunkin' gift card from me this year despite my dissatisfaction with his services a couple years back.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Touche


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

hbrady said:


> NEHomer, welcome to the site. I'm kind of like you, no commercial accounts but I plow my private road and a couple of neighbors driveways. I had to chuckle about your lawn, every spring the dear wife and I are out there fixing the ruts in the lawn and raking up piles of reclaim I deposited there over the winter. After 30+ years of plowing and adjusting my technique it still happens and every spring my wife grumbles at me as we clean up the mess
> 
> GO PATS!


At least your Wife helps you, My wife orders me to go clean up and watches me like I'm a hired hand. LOL  I don't know why I let her punk me.  :hammerhead:


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

FredG said:


> At least your Wife helps you, My wife orders me to go clean up and watches me like I'm a hired hand. LOL  I don't know why I let her punk me.  :hammerhead:


Because it's easier than fighting it lol.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

make a gravel guard for your plow, good shop project, maybe make it easily removable for pavement


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

This looks simple enough and removable when things freeze up.


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

Well I got my new plow and I got some time in my shop yesterday to try that modification above for my unfrozen dirt drive. Not sure if it'll work or not but it was a fun afternoon project. If it does slide over the dirt while clearing the snow acceptably and not falling off, I may be onto something. After freeze up, I loosen 4 bolts and put them away till next year.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Looks good.


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## hbrady (Oct 28, 2003)

Nice! Anxious to hear how it works.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

nice yard~guard.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

hbrady said:


> Nice! Anxious to hear how it works.


X2.............................


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## Dirtebiker (Nov 10, 2016)

How do you cut the pile? And what kind of steel is that?


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## Dirtebiker (Nov 10, 2016)

Pipe, not pile!


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

Lol!

I cut it with a plasma cutter and it's 1 1/2" standard pipe and 2" x 1/4" flat stock. Since I couldn't get my welder to the truck, the tricky part was clamping the tabs in the correct position to take the assembly to the welding bench. After head sratchin' for a spell, I simply took an 8" x 2" piece of sheet metal and made a crease in the middle. I wrapped one half around the pipe and bent the remaining half so that it ran flat on the tab. I rotated it around the pipe so it fit perfectly and taped the sheet metal to the pipe. At the bench I just placed the tab against the sheet metal and tacked it in place. Worked like a charm.

What's funny is that we've had really cold weather since Friday with last night in the single digits so I probably made them for next year at this point. I'll see what the sun does to everything today and then we'll see if we get anything out of tonight's storm.....I'm thinkin' it might be a dud out this way.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

I was going to fabricate a gravel guard for my plow, but soon realized that the pipe I bought was way too heavy. Seems as though a 4" x 8'-6" pipe would make my pump work too hard (or so I would assume). I chose that size pipe because of my backdrag blade extends rearward, and that huge 4" diameter pipe would encompass both blades.

Oh well. It sits in the backyard and the squirrels like playing in it

lol


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

Lol!

My plow dealer said he'd heard of using PVC but I can't see how that could possibly hold up.

Gee, I didn't think of the weight being much of an issue. Think I should? They're not very heavy but still...


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

NEhomer said:


> Lol!
> 
> My plow dealer said he'd heard of using PVC but I can't see how that could possibly hold up.
> 
> Gee, I didn't think of the weight being much of an issue. Think I should? They're not very heavy but still...


Not an issue with your plow


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

NEhomer said:


> Lol!
> 
> My plow dealer said he'd heard of using PVC but I can't see how that could possibly hold up.
> 
> Gee, I didn't think of the weight being much of an issue. Think I should? They're not very heavy but still...


PVC will not work. It will shatter or you will wear threw it in no time.


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

yeah, that's what I was thinking when he said it.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

once you get some wear on it, you can run some hardface rod to help the wear factor

i leave mine on, as i only do non paved, makes it nice when you need to run on the frozen lawn, as the edge will shave frozen lawn

only place i have to watch is where the highway salt it or early snow on warm ground, in those places lift the blade just a touch till it freezes

had a local sheriff borrow my truck when i was in a loader, came back and said its the first time he didnt tear up his grandfathers driveway when plowing


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## WarmInTheCab (Dec 14, 2016)

New to forum tried searching for using solid stock and cold roll steel with gravel guard. Has anyone tried using 2 inch cold roll/solid stock for gravel guard. I build my own cutting edges and was considering using solid stock with a tab to go front and back to mount it to blade?


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

I'm trying to picture in my head how you would secure it properly to the blade.

Btw, mine worked splendidly this week. The blade slid over the lawn perfectly except for one area when I had it in vee position and hit a high spot. It tore the yard then but anytime the wings were splayed out, it worked as intended.


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## Dogplow Dodge (Jan 23, 2012)

SnoFarmer said:


> PVC will not work. It will shatter or you will wear threw it in no time.


Takes about 30 seconds.....

Although I only know because I was dumb enough to try it.


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## WarmInTheCab (Dec 14, 2016)

O= ⬅ O is round stock and equal sign is a pair of tabs that will go over cutting edge. I did a mock up at shop tonight will try and add picture when I get home. Only way I have to open pipe up is with oxy/acetelyne torch. Would be easier for me to weld some tabs on round stock and drill a few holes. 

Dumb question does guard need to run full length of blade or can I use 3 1ft sections instead? I will be using a 7.5 Meyers blade. My folks have 1/2 mile of gravel drive and I have another customer with almost 3/4 mile gravel drive. Neither drive is flat both have up and down sections and I'm constantly raising and lowering blade to keep from peeling up gravel.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

WarmInTheCab said:


> O= ⬅ O is round stock and equal sign is a pair of tabs that will go over cutting edge. I did a mock up at shop tonight will try and add picture when I get home. Only way I have to open pipe up is with oxy/acetelyne torch. Would be easier for me to weld some tabs on round stock and drill a few holes.
> 
> Dumb question does guard need to run full length of blade or can I use 3 1ft sections instead? I will be using a 7.5 Meyers blade. My folks have 1/2 mile of gravel drive and I have another customer with almost 3/4 mile gravel drive. Neither drive is flat both have up and down sections and I'm constantly raising and lowering blade to keep from peeling up gravel.


You can try it but the reason people are having a hard time understanding is because typically hollow gravel bars are used so that they can slip over the cutting edge. There is less torque on the bar that way. If you just weld up tabs on top of round stock they are either going to break off or bend back under the blade. I guess if you use sone really heavy duty tabs it might work. I dunno. Will be interesting to see how long it lasts if you do it that way.


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

i believe someone on here did a solid bar on bottom of edge....solid weld is the key


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## leolkfrm (Mar 11, 2010)

found it


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

Yeah, the tab bar would likely need to be continuous.

Now, I'm wondering about the weight of a bar that was 2" by 7'6"

You could possibly cut the groove in standard pipe with a band saw by cutting a slight cross section.

Lastly, I think the bar would need to be continuous across the blade. If plowing with the blade angled, the end section might gouge into the ground.


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

It would dig in less than the corner of a regular edge.


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## NEhomer (Dec 3, 2016)

True, but if you had multiple sections, the lead edge of each might dig in, no?

I guess you'd have to try it and see. You could also bevel each edge.


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## WarmInTheCab (Dec 14, 2016)

Thanks guys appreciate the help and leolkfrm how did you find that picture did I search wrong? Picture is what my plan was, I was just going to add a tab on the backside of blade also.


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## ktfbgb (Jan 31, 2016)

Well I stand corrected. That solid one looks like it would hold up.Thumbs Up


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