# salt or not?



## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

I have a medium strip mall I signed with this year. Tonight they say 1 inch of snow. I have a 2 " inch trigger (that is my normal contact). It's going to be cold the next 3 days (34 of a high) and then it should go up to 40 for 2 days. Would you pre treat with salt or say it's not 2 inch so do nothing? I have a good understanding with all my commercials to know what they want. This is a new account and I think this guy does not want to spent any more then he really needs to and it's a little hard to get a feel for what he wants...

What would you do?


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

i would ask him what he wants


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## Dodge Plow Pwr (Dec 7, 2007)

I would call and explain how much better it would be and safer if it is pre treated. That would give you an insight to how he thinks and go from there.


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

I'm sure we all have had a customer like this, He doesn't want to get sued, but he also doesn't want to spend too much. I also don't want to get sued, but I don't want to fight about getting paid either. My second truck has an opening that needs to be filled and I wanted to fill it. I agree asking him would be best, but that is not an option tonight or tomorrow. And yes I know I should have discussed this before the weekend... but that does not help me now.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Somtime with a new customer I will do what i think is best

if they dont complain it was alright if they do complain then you know what not to do

i time you will figue out what he does and doesnt want


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Pretreating are you talking anti-icing the process of putting salt or liquid down before it snows? I wouldn't anti-ice with a 2" trigger, trust me he won't want it, I would with a 1" trigger though. Wait to see how much it snows and then decide. The above posts are right though you should really ask him in the near future.


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

Yes, I know I agree with every one that would say I should have asked him this before it came to this.
JD, 1 inch is forecasted, let’s say 1 inch falls. I do nothing, Monday morning someone slips and breaks their leg. My contract calls for a clear 2" trigger. They try to sue. Were do I stand? In my eyes I'm covered, but I have been wrong before. That's why I like the zero tolerance contracts, it's clear, what ever I have to do no discussion, none of this; I did want that, kind of crap.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Pennings Garden;664850 said:


> Yes, I know I agree with every one that would say I should have asked him this before it came to this.
> JD, 1 inch is forecasted, let's say 1 inch falls. I do nothing, Monday morning someone slips and breaks their leg. My contract calls for a clear 2" trigger. They try to sue. Were do I stand? In my eyes I'm covered, but I have been wrong before. That's why I like the zero tolerance contracts, it's clear, what ever I have to do no discussion, none of this; I did want that, kind of crap.


My lots are all 0 tolerance but you were asking if you should anti-ice I thought, so I said no. If you feel the need to salt you should, I would have never signed a 2" min contract.


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## SNOWLORD (Aug 10, 2007)

Sounds to me like you would have to wait until you get 2 inches b4 doing anything which stinks.


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

They way I see it now is; just salt it like every other lot I do and if he does not want to pay me for this salt it's my loss (maybe 35.- plus labor) and I have some thing to cover myself with if it would ever get nasty.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Pennings Garden;664888 said:


> They way I see it now is; just salt it like every other lot I do and if he does not want to pay me for this salt it's my loss (maybe 35.- plus labor) and I have some thing to cover myself with if it would ever get nasty.


Medium sized strip mall takes $35 in salt, I was thinking about something a little larger, for 35 bucks I'd spread it.


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## Pennings Garden (Dec 11, 2006)

JD Dave;664895 said:


> Medium sized strip mall takes $35 in salt, I was thinking about something a little larger, for 35 bucks I'd spread it.


Around here $65.- buys you a ton bulk, $35.- cost of salt in my eyes is medium size, sorry I did not detail this more...
and just spread it, that is kind of the way I see see it at this point


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Pennings Garden;664901 said:


> Around here $65.- buys you a ton bulk, $35.- cost of salt in my eyes is medium size, sorry I did not detail this more...


No problem.


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## cet (Oct 2, 2004)

I have a 1" salt trigger and 2" plow trigger on one of my accounts. This summer I was told about a slip and fall we had in the winter. I looked in my records and there was 1/2" of snow that night. I told the insurance investigator that it snowed 1/2" of snow and our trigger was 1". That was the last I heard of that slip and fall. The insurance guy did say how do you have a 1" trigger at a school? Good question.


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

i know things are differnt in different areas, but why wouldn't he want his snow plowed at any amount? a 2" snow here is a BIG deal (they usually cancel school) and i would think his shop rentors would complain if he didn't plow the snow! i would plow everytime it snowed or not do the lot at all....after all you are the snow pro, not him..you should decide when and when not to plow. what if you get 1 3/4" of snow and you DONT plow and people see your unplowed lot and they think "O jaybrown plows that lot and he doesn't even show up" what then?? last year i had a client that only wanted salt when he called me for it, so he could pinch his pennies....guess when he called me? he callled me when my truck was emptied out and put away!!! that relationship didn't last very long.... BTW what happens if you get 1 1/2" of snow (not enough for you to plow with your contract) and it packs down, then you get another 1 1/2" of snow the next day....what do you do then??


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Jay brown;665474 said:


> i know things are differnt in different areas, but why wouldn't he want his snow plowed at any amount? a 2" snow here is a BIG deal (they usually cancel school) and i would think his shop rentors would complain if he didn't plow the snow! i would plow everytime it snowed or not do the lot at all....after all you are the snow pro, not him..you should decide when and when not to plow. what if you get 1 3/4" of snow and you DONT plow and people see your unplowed lot and they think "O jaybrown plows that lot and he doesn't even show up" what then?? last year i had a client that only wanted salt when he called me for it, so he could pinch his pennies....guess when he called me? he callled me when my truck was emptied out and put away!!! that relationship didn't last very long.... BTW what happens if you get 1 1/2" of snow (not enough for you to plow with your contract) and it packs down, then you get another 1 1/2" of snow the next day....what do you do then??


In Buffalo 2" of snow means you get to go back to bed for a couple more hours and hardly anyone takes salt, right GV.


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## John Mac (Feb 5, 2005)

We get 2" everyday! The reason I went to bulk salt is so I can sell alot of salt, I salt every time it snows from a trace to 6". I didn't plow today but I salted. If I didn't sell salt I would not be working 50% of the days I work now in the winter because I sell salt. You have to sell all your customers on salt every time you a have slippery parking lot and someone could slip and fall.


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## CARDOCTOR (Nov 29, 2002)

i would contact the owner if he says no have him sign a refusal slip that way your covered
we had a 1/2 inch last night temp hoovering around freezing we salted all properties


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## ilawns (Sep 24, 2008)

*Melt it rather than plow 1 inch*

Good food for thought. I could use some advice. I have a 60,000 sq ft commercial lot that I plow for 1 inch or more. This is a church and they want the lot cleared even at 1 inch.
I do not have a truck/spreader set up. For de-icing in the event of ice build-up I subcontract to another company set up to spread bulk salt over this area. 
This arrangement has worked for both myself and the customer in the past. 
However, in the case of a 1 inch storm, would it be better to hit it with salt or Ice Melt from a walk behind spreader rather than abuse my plow/truck on that little snow?


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

ilawns;665588 said:


> Good food for thought. I could use some advice. I have a 60,000 sq ft commercial lot that I plow for 1 inch or more. This is a church and they want the lot cleared even at 1 inch.
> I do not have a truck/spreader set up. For de-icing in the event of ice build-up I subcontract to another company set up to spread bulk salt over this area.
> This arrangement has worked for both myself and the customer in the past.
> However, in the case of a 1 inch storm, would it be better to hit it with salt or Ice Melt from a walk behind spreader rather than abuse my plow/truck on that little snow?


a walk behing would not do the trick on 60,000 sf.....in this case we would be plowing the lot and hopefully by noon if the sun peeks out it would be nice and dry....


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

ilawns;665588 said:


> Good food for thought. I could use some advice. I have a 60,000 sq ft commercial lot that I plow for 1 inch or more. This is a church and they want the lot cleared even at 1 inch.
> I do not have a truck/spreader set up. For de-icing in the event of ice build-up I subcontract to another company set up to spread bulk salt over this area.
> This arrangement has worked for both myself and the customer in the past.
> However, in the case of a 1 inch storm, would it be better to hit it with salt or Ice Melt from a walk behind spreader rather than abuse my plow/truck on that little snow?


why not get a little tailgate unit

you can run a lot of product through a spreader like this if you need to

with the price of salt i would plow anything over 3/4" then salt


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

JD Dave;665488 said:


> In Buffalo 2" of snow means you get to go back to bed for a couple more hours and hardly anyone takes salt, right GV.


thats funny!! here 2" and they usually put out a winter weather warning....also the snow "storm" will make headlines on the news and on the front page of the daily news paper....


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

I think a lot of guys don't think things through before writing and signing a deal. My clients get salt every time there is precipitation, unless ground and air temps are several degrees above freezing. You can't leave yourself so wide open, you have everything on the line. I have an addendum area in my contract where I can customize or modify...but I usually write in, something to the effect of "salt is to be applied to _ _ and_ after each time the lot is plowed and when conditions make it necessary to do so. Management may also contact me directly 24/7 @ _ _ _ and request service should they feel it necessary. 

Basically, I don't ask for permission...but if say a band of snow shot in somewhere off the lake, it puts it back in their lap to get a hold of me, especially if they know that I was just there. Seldom happens, but I can't keep cameras on every lot either...around here a half mile away it can be sunny and clear.
I build a strong relationship w/ most of my clients, and they know they can call me for anything. If there's a problem or they just want to talk, theres nothing we can't resolve over a cup of coffee...sometimes they just want an excuse to get out of the office...I have some accounts as old as 17 years and I'm not the cheapest.


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## ilawns (Sep 24, 2008)

Hey coldcoffee, I very much appreciate your perspective on the relationship. I consider the relationship to be the most critical aspect to the success of my business. 
I 'inherited' the terms of the contract for this customer. I took care of this property for years while working for another company. That company went under, I struck out on my own and now I am trying to 'improve' the service. This customer likes and trusts me. 
My struggle is to improve the service, strengthen the relationship with the client without running the prices up. This client is used to paying for plowing 95% of the time. They consider more salt as higher costs. 
Without hurting the relationship, and loosing my shirt in the process, how can I convince them to increase the amount of times I could salt versus plowing?


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## stauffer.80 (Aug 21, 2008)

If you are responsible for someone slipping and falling, then it should be at your discretion when to salt, and they should pay for it. If they pass the liability for falls on to you, then they also pass on the judgment of when to do salt. Luckily for our contracts, we decide when to salt, because the owners tell us it is cheaper to pay us to spread salt than to argue about it in court. We have had good luck so far.


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## coldcoffee (Jul 17, 2008)

ilawns;666215 said:


> Hey coldcoffee, I very much appreciate your perspective on the relationship. I consider the relationship to be the most critical aspect to the success of my business.
> I 'inherited' the terms of the contract for this customer. I took care of this property for years while working for another company. That company went under, I struck out on my own and now I am trying to 'improve' the service. This customer likes and trusts me.
> My struggle is to improve the service, strengthen the relationship with the client without running the prices up. This client is used to paying for plowing 95% of the time. They consider more salt as higher costs.
> Without hurting the relationship, and loosing my shirt in the process, how can I convince them to increase the amount of times I could salt versus plowing?


I tend to use a lot of analogies when I'm trying to make a point to my clients with the hope of making a sale. I also try to appeal to their senses, followed with logic. Every scenario tends to be a bit different, but some things will always be consistent. One thing that will never change is the fact that nobody ever wants to pay more for something than what they have to...that's obvious and I call that "a life law". I also realize that how I explain something to one person is not going to be received the same to somebody else. I'm always in observation mode...which simply means that I have to get a sense of the person that I'm communicating w/ in order to address their problems and the needs. Lets face it, snow and ice are a pain in the @@s to them and in a way, I am too !! After all...I'm taking their money (their prospective). Understanding that, I have to turn it around and show them something great for the value...and that can go any number of directions depending on what their needs are... (sample questions) What about minimizing the risk? How many tenants are you willing to risk loosing, because they can pay the same rent elsewhere that actually does maintain the property properly ? Ya know, we have a record number of vacancies in this community? How would you feel if your mother had to walk across this lot? Assume we do it your way, how much will your insurance go up if one person falls, hits their head and dies, or falls into moving traffic? It takes some practice to know what to say, and your not always going to say the right thing. One thing for sure is that they have to see the benefit or the repercussions of their decision for choosing or not choosing to utilize my services. The choice is ultimately theirs and that needs to be clear in writing! Sometimes if I have to pull out the big guns... "Hey, it's the cost of doing business...you can go somewhere where it doesn't snow, and you can use your snow plowing budget to pay for higher insurance premiums such as hurricane, flood and just about any other kind of disaster insurance...so think of this as an insurance policy to minimize that risk, also... because it's the right thing to do, it's the responsible thing to do". They don't like to hear it like that, but sometimes those penny pinchers have to be smacked hard in the head with a good shot of "wake the F up, it's your business thats on the line...not mine". I can replace this account next year, can you replace yours? I don't get that hard unless I feel it's needed, but in the process of whatever you say...you need to deliver the message to them that your trying to resolve their problem..."I'm trying to help you...will you help me help you"? If you feel that your contract is self explanatory and that he's just trying to manipulate it, you could say something like "I have a limited amount of space in my schedule in a business that is seasonal, you agreed in writing to specific terms and I request that you honor those terms that you have already agreed upon".

If you can't get anywhere with it, then you will have to reevaluate as to what value it is to you and either walk away at some point...or accept it for what it is. No two accounts are the same, some will be better than others...and sometimes a half of a loaf of bread is better than none at all. Also, I don't recommend buying into the logic that "The customer is always right"...there are far too many vultures out there that eat guys like us for breakfast !
Take good care of them, but learn where the line is...in other words don't let them abuse you!

BTW...why did the other company go under?

Sorry this post was so long, but there is no simple answer it takes time, patience, practice and persistence...good luck, I hope it all works out for ya!!


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