# Tooo much salt



## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Mr Mark O. made a post regarding how salt can be creating problems in the environment.

So I looked into it and found this. Hope it is okay to post.

" DEICING & TODAY’S CONTRACTOR

Providing a safe environment takes diligence and experience.

Snow contractors are finding that their customers have become more demanding of services to keep sites safe for pedestrian and vehicular traffic. After all, we are essentially “risk managers” for our customers benefit. Providing a safe environment takes diligence and experience. When it comes to providing deicing or anti-icing services, the uninformed and uneducated will not be able to properly address situations that arise on customers’ properties.

I have been in markets where customers will point out their white pavement after a storm and declare “my contractor did well.” What they fail to realize is their contractors over applied sodium chloride (salt) and wasted a whole pile of their money, not to mention added to the public’s perception that salt damages the environment. Over application of rock salt on parking lot surfaces is the main reason water tables become contaminated with salt. A bit of education for the contractor and the customer can go a long way to avoid these issues.

Proper distribution and proper understanding of the quantities required for effectiveness on properties we service is another problematic issue in our business. Some contractors still insist on telling customers they are applying a ton of salt per acre of pavement. For the most part, this is not really possible without some considerable effort.

Studies show as little as 100 pounds an acre is sufficient to effectively treat ice on pavement surfaces. However, contractor equipment cannot be calibrated this low, so we need to use something closer to 300-500 pounds per acre of pavement. Even this rate is often evidence of over application of rock salt.

Interestingly enough, a recent study completed by Snow Magazine shows 14% of the respondents to a survey about what they considered an acceptable quantity of salt per acre still believe one ton per acre is appropriate. 22% believe 500 lbs per acre is acceptable, while 40% said ½ to ¾ ton was acceptable. That means 76% still believe that over applying salt is an acceptable practice in our industry. I imagine that if I asked those contractors how they were charging for salting and deicing services the answer would be either “per ton” or “per pound”. It’s the only reason to justify those amounts.

Another issue prevalent in the industry is a lack of knowledge of how salt works. Sodium chloride is endothermic in nature. Salt, in and of itself, does not melt anything. It lowers the freezing point of water. Salt must react with moisture to go “into solution”. The resulting reaction with the ice lowers the freezing point. It does not generate any heat. Once the freezing point is lowered to a temperature that is lower than the pavement temperature, water results. Continued snowfall will dilute the concentration of salt that is in solution, effectively raising the freezing point of water so as to allow refreezing to occur.

On the other hand, calcium chloride generates heat when it interacts with moisture. This exothermic reaction is rather violent. In fact, the reaction can generate enough heat to allow the resulting water to evaporate quickly from the pavement or concrete surfaces. This is why you often see dry pavement a few hours after an application of calcium chloride on a sidewalk.

Contrary to popular belief, concrete spalling is not caused by rock salt. Concrete used in sidewalks is quite porous. Rock salt lowers the freezing point of water. The water permeates the concrete sidewalk and gets into the pores of the relatively fragile sidewalk concrete mix. When temperatures go down at night, this water freezes (in the pores) causing the concrete to crack and “pop” pieces of concrete. As such, the use of calcium chloride is preferred on sidewalks because it generates enough heat to foster evaporation of the resulting water. Water does not get a chance to settle into the pores in the concrete and thus, spalling does not have an opportunity to occur.

Salt, calcium chloride, mag chloride and other deicing agents are tools for snow contractors to use in fighting icy conditions on customer parking lots, road surfaces and sidewalks. As with all tools, proper use (as directed) will result in better results. Tools that are misused are often thought to be the cause of the problem. It is not the tool, but how it is used that creates desirable results. If one uses the deicing agent (tool) properly – more effective results will be obtained. Contractors and customers need to be educated as to how these tools work. A lack of education can create problems and false expectations of the results obtained.

When salt prices escalated a few years back due to shortages in supply, many began investigating possible additives to enhance the performance of rock salt. Many, many experiments were performed in an attempt to prolong residual effects of rock salt. Beet juice, derivatives of corn solids and various animal extracts were applied to salt piles as prices escalated seemingly out of control. Intense marketing campaigns have kept these additives alive and kicking. It is hard to argue with visual evidence put forth in marketing materials. However, widespread acceptance and use of such products is still an uphill battle in the marketplace.

All evidence confirms straight, untreated rock salt – good old NaCl – is still the least expensive and most desirable alternative when it comes to treating icy surfaces. Easy to obtain, easy to transport, fast acting at freezing temperatures, and the product of choice by the vast majority of snow fighters – both private and municipal. The escalating prices from a few years back, as a result of the shortage, have abated. While it is unlikely we will see a return to mid-nineties pricing structures – rock salt is still the best deal when it comes to the war on dangerous slippery surface conditions.

By J. Allin in the Snow Magazine "


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

Who is Mark O.?


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

You mentioned Mark and his idol.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

I've said numerous times over the years muni's and contractors back east are ECO terrorist for the amount of salt that's put down. The comments back are, it's because it's what people expect and it reduces liability claims.
What happened to having the appropriate tire for winter driving and wearing the appropriate foot wear for winter conditions. Take a look at how many AWD and FWD vehicles on the road compared to 30-40yrs ago. Vehicles now a days are more capable of dealing with slick roads than back then but vehicles now are running wider all season or forgoing all season tires and running summer treads. Also since vehicles have technologically evolved with traction control, FWD, AWD people don't know how to drive.


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## Defcon 5 (Mar 20, 2014)

ECO Terrorist??????....


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Some places don't salt hardly at all. Look at Flagstaff. I put salt down just for the fact of it being present, Seasonal is a little more demanding. 3 years ago we had a total of 5'' of snow and a little freezing rain, The temps were reaching 40 to 44* everyday. Because the job was bid seasonal the Guy wanted salt for a dusting that would melt from a tire track or foot print.

When I was out monitoring I would not see the hospital salted nobody in the whole City was spreading including the City. I would go back home and around 6.30 am he would call me and want to know why I did not salt. Finally I cracked and told him to mind his own business and quit trying to run mine you are not employed by me.

Finally someone over his head called me and wanted to have a meeting, I declined because I did not want to see his face and told them to follow the contract. At this point I wanted to kill the guy as he was making my life miserable all I wanted was out anyway I could.

Finally I got a letter from them stating my safety practice did not meet there's and they would pay me to date I think they were paying me $6200.00 per mo. I complied and never looked back. I would stir the pot to tho like asking if I could pump the brine out of retention pond and reapply lol. 40 ton of salt applied to this 12 acre site in 30 days for no reason because of a unreasonable snow wizard trying to get over because no snow was falling. Guy made me sick


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

Call a spade a spade...most people can't drive in slick conditions because they are in too big of a hurry or they are stupid. Their wide tires just magnify their ignorance.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Winter is winter, is cold, snowy and ice may happen. 

Women please wear boots not your high heels boots or shoes. Sure they make you look taller and slimmer but is it worth it ??

Guys...stop acting like there is dry pavement and drive correctly, slow it down.

People realize you wanting all the conveniences and demanding it causes problems. 

We will work with what we have but stop and think.


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## iceyman (Mar 1, 2007)

On a Call said:


> Winter is winter, is cold, snowy and ice may happen.
> 
> Women please wear boots not your high heels boots or shoes. Sure they make you look taller and slimmer but is it worth it ??
> 
> ...


We have people slip and fall on dry pavement here.. end the frivolous lawsuits and then we can stop applying so much salt


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I see now why some of that article is bovine excrement...the author.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

I have no idea who he is...

And they did mention using animal products.

" When salt prices escalated a few years back due to shortages in supply, many began investigating possible additives to enhance the performance of rock salt. Many, many experiments were performed in an attempt to prolong residual effects of rock salt. Beet juice, derivatives of corn solids and *various animal extracts* were applied to salt piles as prices escalated seemingly out of control. Intense marketing campaigns have kept these additives *alive and kicking*. It is hard to argue with visual evidence put forth in marketing materials. However, widespread acceptance and use of such products is still an uphill battle in the marketplace."

I pee on my salt.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

On a Call said:


> Women please wear boots not your high heels boots or shoes. Sure they make you look taller and slimmer but is it worth it ??


Yes... it is very worth it...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

They claim rock salt is still the most effective and your cost is less. We don't have to be making brine in our waterways though. Yes they need to be prepared for ice and snow, Meaning good footwear not pumps and don't drive like a lunatic.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> Yes... it is very worth it...


Specially if your there to break her fall.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

You be the man....Like a cat ready to pounce on a mouse,


Philbilly2 said:


> Yes... it is very worth it...


I bet you just sit and wait over an icy spot.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

On a Call said:


> You be the man....Like a cat ready to pounce on a mouse,
> 
> I bet you just sit and wait over an icy spot.


Who are you kidding, I am the one with the bucket of water...


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

Oh my....so yesterday you went home alone


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## Mike_PS (Feb 28, 2005)

how about we discuss the topic at hand and refrain from the nonsense that some insist on bringing to every discussion?

thanks


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> Yes... it is very worth it...


Shaken that good I'd follow around a bit. That's it for me, Try to pass on getting scolded lol.


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Knock it off Fred... discuss the topic only :waving::laugh:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> how about we discuss the topic at hand and refrain from the nonsense that some insist on bringing to every discussion?
> 
> thanks


OOps I guess I was typing when you were, You just type faster, My Bad.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Philbilly2 said:


> Knock it off Fred... discuss the topic only :waving::laugh:


LOL


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

On a Call said:


> Studies show as little as 100 pounds an acre is sufficient to effectively treat ice on pavement surfaces.


This is true...in a perfect world under perfect conditions...i.e. a laboratory.

But none of us live in a perfect world under perfect conditions or melt snow and ice in a laboratory.

So it's ignorant, stupid and irresponsible to even throw that number out there.



On a Call said:


> However, contractor equipment cannot be calibrated this low, so we need to use something closer to 300-500 pounds per acre of pavement. Even this rate is often evidence of over application of rock salt.


You bet, if there's under .1" of snow, pavement temp is 31° and the sun is coming out it sure is overapplication.



On a Call said:


> Some contractors still insist on telling customers they are applying a ton of salt per acre of pavement. For the most part, this is not really possible without some considerable effort.


Wanna bet? Maybe if one is using electric spreaders, but I can do that very easily with several of my trucks.



On a Call said:


> That means 76% still believe that over applying salt is an acceptable practice in our industry. I imagine that if I asked those contractors how they were charging for salting and deicing services the answer would be either "per ton" or "per pound". It's the only reason to justify those amounts


1/2 ton per acre is a very good average over an entire season. Might be a bit on the high side, but it's a good rule of thumb.

I don't charge by the ton or pound. Maybe the others do, I don't know and neither does he.



On a Call said:


> Salt, in and of itself, does not melt anything. It lowers the freezing point of water. Salt must react with moisture to go "into solution". The resulting reaction with the ice lowers the freezing point. It does not generate any heat


Actually...this is false. It's basic chemistry. Any and all chemical reactions create heat. Might not be enough to melt snow\ice, but there most certainly is heat generated.



On a Call said:


> As such, the use of calcium chloride is preferred on sidewalks because it generates enough heat to foster evaporation of the resulting water.


It is? I don't think we have ever used 100% calcium on walks. I have this thing about exposing my operators to chemicals that recommend the use of respirators, destroys leather and can result in a slippery mess. Beaumont Hospital had a person die due to use of calcium on their walks, floor was slippery with residue, guy slipped and fell and hit his head.

And we've had concrete walks that we've been doing for 25+ years that have not spalled.

As usual, JAA has some valid points mixed in with utter BS.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

There is no way any of my contracts would be happy with the results 100# per acre would produce. They are not gonna wait hours for ice to melt. Also some of our account are foot and vehicle traffic causing hard pack that requires a heavier salting to deal with. Now I agree some clients are unrealistic when it comes to snow removal but we are paid to keep these lots safe and we will do it to the best of our ability. 

I also agree that most slip and falls are result of poor footwear choices. But we don't have the power to make them wear sensible shoes so we do our best to make the accounts safe for all types of footwear. 

My question is what is the credentials of the article author? Are they actually in the snow removal business? Have they dealt with every area of snow removal, in every state in the snow belt? We all know that different areas have different expectations. Or is this just some guy that went to a bunch of salting classes and tube vids?


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Michael J. Donovan said:


> how about we discuss the topic at hand and refrain from the nonsense that some insist on bringing to every discussion?
> 
> thanks


I agree and have done so. For once....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

kimber750 said:


> There is no way any of my contracts would be happy with the results 100# per acre would produce. They are not gonna wait hours for ice to melt.


See my first rebuttal.



kimber750 said:


> My question is what is the credentials of the article author? Are they actually in the snow removal business? Have they dealt with every area of snow removal, in every state in the snow belt? We all know that different areas have different expectations. Or is this just some guy that went to a bunch of salting classes and tube vids?


Oh my....you don't know who John Allin is?

He is the inventor of snow. And snowplowing. And salting. And all things snow and ice management related. Founder of SIMA and ASCA and possibly even the universe.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Mark Oomkes said:


> See my first rebuttal.
> 
> Oh my....you don't know who John Allin is?
> 
> He is the inventor of snow. And snowplowing. And salting. And all things snow and ice management related. Founder of SIMA and ASCA and possibly even the universe.


So I am the one needing more classes and tube vids? It is becoming a lot of work to be on this site.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mark Oomkes said:


> See my first rebuttal.
> 
> Oh my....you don't know who John Allin is?
> 
> He is the inventor of snow. And snowplowing. And salting. And all things snow and ice management related. Founder of SIMA and ASCA and possibly even the universe.


He is the one that makes money on all things related to snow removal/deicing accept actually doing any snow removal/deicing himself.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BUFF said:


> I've said numerous times over the years muni's and contractors back east are ECO terrorist for the amount of salt that's put down. The comments back are, it's because it's what people expect and it reduces liability claims.
> What happened to having the appropriate tire for winter driving and wearing the appropriate foot wear for winter conditions. Take a look at how many AWD and FWD vehicles on the road compared to 30-40yrs ago. Vehicles now a days are more capable of dealing with slick roads than back then but vehicles now are running wider all season or forgoing all season tires and running summer treads. Also since vehicles have technologically evolved with traction control, FWD, AWD people don't know how to drive.


I wouldn't argue your points at all. And I make good money oof salting. Very good. And it keeps my employees bizzie when there isn't enough to plow.

What I have noticed is that most people don't care aboot their tyres until they're virtually bald. Because they have front wheel drive or AWD. The days of getting snowies on the rear are long gone. Just like all the other technology being incorporated into vehicles, it is making drivers dumber and worse. They believe technology will overcome all issues.

I had to say something to my better half a couple weeks ago walking into church...cold and snow on the pavement and she was wearing open toed shoes instead of boots. She wore boots at night.

Last year we had one account where some folks needed to be educated. They were under the impression that the parking lot should be as clear in December and January as July. Constant emails, complaints, etc. We addressed them, but this year nary a one. Our level of service hasn't changed and in all reality this winter has been worse than last. Temps and snowfall.

I still say we're going to get screwed if we keep it up...liability or not. We're going to have licensing and huge amounts of record keeping and possibly even reporting if we keep turning parking lots white after every event.


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

LapeerLandscape said:


> He is the one that makes money on all things related to snow removal/deicing accept actually doing any snow removal/deicing himself.


I don't follow the bureaucracy of snow removal, I just push the snow into piles.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Mark Oomkes said:


> See my first rebuttal.
> 
> Oh my....you don't know who John Allin is?
> 
> He is the inventor of snow. And snowplowing. And salting. And all things snow and ice management related. Founder of SIMA and ASCA and possibly even the universe.


Should have added...he is now a consultant. Does that tell you enough?


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## kimber750 (Sep 19, 2011)

Let me ask one question about this John Allin. Does he cater to the people doing the snow and ice management or the clients paying for it? By reading that article I would guess the latter since it seems to throwing contracts under the eco bus.


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

kimber750 said:


> Let me ask one question about this John Allin. Does he cater to the people doing the snow and ice management or the clients paying for it? By reading that article I would guess the latter since it seems to throwing contracts under the eco bus.


And he should realize that there are much more eco-friendly products out there that are available for a much steeper price, but the customer doesn't want to pony up for them.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

kimber750 said:


> Let me ask one question about this John Allin. Does he cater to the people doing the snow and ice management or the clients paying for it? By reading that article I would guess the latter since it seems to throwing contracts under the eco bus.


He ran a somewhat successful snow business but ran into cash flow\profit\not charging enough issues. It's a long story. I've posted somewhere, no idea where it is. Erie, PA. Not sure anyone around there has much love for him...or so I've been told by Erie contractors. Rumor is he still has his fingers in a business there. No idea if it's true.

He is also a expert witness for plaintiffs and defendants regarding snow and ice management.

He was a backer in Snow Dragon melters...you can ask Paul Vanderzon about that.

He was also the contractor for snow removal at the Olympics in SLC.

He has quite the resume. But if you know the whole story, he isn't as impressive.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

The heaviest I spread is aboot 300#/acre when temps are down to zero or less. Warmer temps I spread 200-255#/acre.

We got aboot 2" last night, it started aboot 4am and at 6am when driving to town I didn't see one DOT truck, no salt/sand was spread at intersections. DOT only spreads at intersections.
Also didn't see any AC's in the ditch, I'm sure that changed later when more were on the road.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

PS I once hear that a resume is like a Balance Sheet with no liabilities.


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Oh my....you don't know who John Allin is?
> 
> He is the inventor of snow. And snowplowing. And salting. And all things snow and ice management related. Founder of SIMA and ASCA and possibly even the universe.


How did I know you would eventually go there.

We've discussed this before...he is NOT the founder of ASCA. Not at all. By virtue of being on a couple committee's and contributing written articles to the Snow magazine does not make him the founder. Kevin Gilbride deserves all the credit for being the founder of the ASCA.

The rest of your statement is most likely true....


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> How did I know you would eventually go there.
> 
> We've discussed this before...he is NOT the founder of ASCA. Not at all. By virtue of being on a couple committee's and contributing written articles to the Snow magazine does not make him the founder. Kevin Gilbride deserves all the credit for being the founder of the ASCA.
> 
> The rest of your statement is most likely true....


C'mon Plow Lord, you know I was exaggerating...just a bit.

He wasn't the founder of SIMA either, just one of several.


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## BossPlow2010 (Sep 29, 2010)

Oh Lordy, Lordy you guys better make sure you stay on topic! It’d be a shame to get a letter from management.

We try to maintain our usage, but we heavily apply at entrances/ exits of parking areas as well near piles of snow. I got the idea from someone on this site and it works for us/ our customers


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## Luther (Oct 31, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> C'mon Plow Lord, you know I was exaggerating...just a bit.
> 
> He wasn't the founder of SIMA either, just one of several.


It's fair to say he founded SIMA. That's not a stretch. I remember the first time meeting him. He was pitching the idea to us and was looking for charter members to get the ball rolling. He was the driving force to start SIMA.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Luther said:


> It's fair to say he founded SIMA. That's not a stretch. I remember the first time meeting him. He was pitching the idea to us and was looking for charter members to get the ball rolling. He was the driving force to start SIMA.


There were 8 or 10 other players there. Might have been the driving force, but he wasn't the founder. And he stole the idea from the guy who formed the SPAA. Snowplowers Association of America.


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

The contractor I sub for has us apply too much. On a 1" storm we treated 3 times because it was cold and it wasn't melting fast enough. People here want their lots looking like snow had never even happened. My wife complains if there is a dusting on the sidewalks when we go places, because "they haven't even put down ice melt". I'm so used to be in it, that it doesn't bother me at all to have some snow or hard pack on the ground when I go places.

Until the public realized that snow does happen, we will be expected to put down enough (or too much) salt to make lots look bare, even a few hours after a storm.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> The contractor I sub for has us apply too much. On a 1" storm we treated 3 times because it was cold and it wasn't melting fast enough. People here want their lots looking like snow had never even happened. My wife complains if there is a dusting on the sidewalks when we go places, because "they haven't even put down ice melt". I'm so used to be in it, that it doesn't bother me at all to have some snow or hard pack on the ground when I go places.
> 
> Until the public realized that snow does happen, we will be expected to put down enough (or too much) salt to make lots look bare, even a few hours after a storm.


Your wife should move to Florida...:laugh:


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

I Shirley am glad I have been moving to LiveEdge plows\pushers.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Your wife should move to Florida...:laugh:


I wish sum times mine would move.....


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Your wife should move to Florida...:laugh:


Alone


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

JMHConstruction said:


> Alone


When people tell me they are going to florida (vacation or for the winter) I tell them go ahead, Florida is for old people.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

BUFF said:


> I wish sum times mine would move.....


Then who would you cook for.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

http://fox17online.com/2018/01/29/turning-to-beet-juice-and-beer-to-address-road-salt-danger/


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

I kind of work in a niche market as a solo snowplower, where I would consider using a different product and increasing my price. I am also surrounded by gravel pits where sand is dirt cheap and up to the last decade and a half was used primarily for traction control. Our municiplality and county have cut way down on the salt usage, going back to the old model. Customers will always dictate it though, you can't use sand to melt off a small dusting it just slurries it up and your better off plowing. Roads can get away with dropping the blade while broadcasting, parking lots not so much. Liscensing or banning salt is going to increase work loads, I've been in it long enough that I know it won't increase prices.
I have been excited about some products for treating salt, others that the media grab (eco traction) are glorified snake oil (mined from some super secretive volcanic deposit) C'mon.

I don't buy into a lot of the scare, I have grown grass on salt killed lawns. Yes it damages the plant by convincing it it is getting enough water and the plant dies of thirst. Once the salt is decipated the soil is good for planting again. Like Mark I have sidewalks that I've treated for years without spalling and others that spall at the mention of salt, maybe it's the concrete. I'm no scientist, just a hack.Some thing to think about...
Also I'm rambling, didn't take my nap today...
https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringo...r/salty-sea/weird-science-salt-essential-life


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

LapeerLandscape said:


> When people tell me they are going to florida (vacation or for the winter) I tell them go ahead, Florida is for old people.


You are not no spring chicken lol.


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

FredG said:


> You are not no spring chicken lol.


Yeah but I'm not going to Florida to act old and drive slow either...


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

What so wrong about driving slow, fishing, and taking naps ??


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

On a Call said:


> What so wrong about driving slow, fishing, and taking naps ??


You forgot golfing.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LapeerLandscape said:


> Yeah but I'm not going to Florida to act old and drive slow either...


Yeah...he can do that right here in Michigan.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

So how much does it take to burn off an inch . And how long would it take


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

LapeerLandscape said:


> You forgot golfing.


Not a golfer I hate those white balls.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

quigleysiding said:


> So how much does it take to burn off an inch . And how long would it take


You are not supplying enough information


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

quigleysiding said:


> So how much does it take to burn off an inch . And how long would it take


Temp?moisture content? Sunlight, traffic.
How exactly does the positrac on a plymouth work...?


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## LapeerLandscape (Dec 29, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> Temp?moisture content? Sunlight, traffic.
> How exactly does the positrac on a plymouth work...?


No one knows...


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

quigleysiding said:


> So how much does it take to burn off an inch . And how long would it take


Your quesiton however is valid

too much and you waste too little and you waste what you put down

There should be a formula but...I have no clue


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## m_ice (Aug 12, 2012)

I'm sure there is a formula but I prefer relying on what I know from experience. Some of it was learned the hard way and some is common sense.


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## quigleysiding (Oct 3, 2009)

i always hear that on here but never tried it . Usually just plow it .


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## JustJeff (Sep 9, 2009)

LapeerLandscape said:


> When people tell me they are going to florida (vacation or for the winter) I tell them go ahead, Florida is for old people.


Not only that, but to me, Florida flat-out sucks ballz. The heat, oppressive humidity, the snakes, not to mention the damned **** roaches. I've seen some roaches so big down there, when I stepped on one, I could have sworn I heard bones crushing. Their economy sucks, it's hard to make a living there. Want to talk about immigration problems? I would bet theirs is one of the worst in the country. And when I lived there (30 years ago), all of the old folks from up North would retire there and buy mobile homes, because if their assessed property value was less than 20K, they didn't have to pay property taxes. So, the entire state is one giant trailer park. I'll pass on Florida.


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## On a Call (Jan 14, 2015)

JustJeff said:


> Not only that, but to me, Florida flat-out sucks ballz. The heat, oppressive humidity, the snakes, not to mention the damned **** roaches. I've seen some roaches so big down there, when I stepped on one, I could have sworn I heard bones crushing. Their economy sucks, it's hard to make a living there. Want to talk about immigration problems? I would bet theirs is one of the worst in the country. And when I lived there (30 years ago), all of the old folks from up North would retire there and buy mobile homes, because if their assessed property value was less than 20K, they didn't have to pay property taxes. So, the entire state is one giant trailer park. I'll pass on Florida.


Okay, so where would you go or stay ?


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## Ajlawn1 (Aug 20, 2009)

I love when the big dog in town preaches about sustainability and holds seminars at the city for sustainable practices and then tries burning off two inches of snow with rock salt because they are undermanned.... Yeah it's happing this morning...


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

JustJeff said:


> Not only that, but to me, Florida flat-out sucks ballz. The heat, oppressive humidity, the snakes, not to mention the damned **** roaches. I've seen some roaches so big down there, when I stepped on one, I could have sworn I heard bones crushing. Their economy sucks, it's hard to make a living there. Want to talk about immigration problems? I would bet theirs is one of the worst in the country. And when I lived there (30 years ago), all of the old folks from up North would retire there and buy mobile homes, because if their assessed property value was less than 20K, they didn't have to pay property taxes. So, the entire state is one giant trailer park. I'll pass on Florida.


Florida does suk, You have to be a good exterminator or hire one. Those Gators are in every fresh water waterway in the state and there hard to kill. Those sewer roaches are in Phoenix to. Look like you could put a saddle on them. The snow birds in the Winter time are a PITA, Take you a hour to drive less than 20 miles.


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Ajlawn1 said:


> I love when the big dog in town preaches about sustainability and holds seminars at the city for sustainable practices and then tries burning off two inches of snow with rock salt because they are undermanned.... Yeah it's happing this morning...


We got a few of them big dogs here, No? don't ask.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

Florida has winter...?
Thank you for taking our snow birds, we don’t want them either. I am considering dropping my senior homes, “My goodness you’re up early, you wake us all up, you didn’t plow my spot, you almost hit me while salting the lane and I pulled out of my spot behind you, how come you don’t shovel between the parked cars,I almost fell, you don’t throw enough salt, you throw too much salt, can you shovel a path around the back acre so I can walk my dog, can you salt it too, hows your mum...?”...


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## Charles (Dec 21, 1999)

Thread over and done


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