# Strangest/most extreme damage from over application of Salt



## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Whats the strangest damage or worst thing anyone has ever seen from over application of salt?

I'm not talking about rusty trucks or spreaders, more specifically to property or environment.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Dead vegetation


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Dead vegetation


meh...thats mundane.

IVe seen some weird stuff over the years, but I became aware of a lot that has some WILD freeze/thaw undulations in it, in mid winter...temps well below freezing and sustained like that for months; and supposed theses wild undulations are due to salt applications.
It's hard to "see" (not very photogenic) but if you drive over it with your truck its a definite "what the...." moment.

It wasn't like that this summer.
Granted we had a big earth quake a few months ago, but if it was earthquake damage youd think someone would have noted that problem immediately after that event.

The real question is anyone ever seen large portions of a parking lot shift like that while the ground is still frozen due to salt applications?

It's not my lot, so I dont know how much salt exactly, other than I have observed lots being over applied in other parts of town, so I can "guess" that the amounts are similar.


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

A few years ago we pretty much had a double winter, no real thaws like usual and pretty cold. One road here, the curb side lane was all wacked out by the end of winter - was it the road warming up during the day and freezing at night, salt or who knows....


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## ponyboy (Dec 19, 2006)

NYC manhole covers flying in air after salt water creates an electrical explosion 

Worst I personally saw was years of over salting parking lot the concrete light pole finally gave way and timber


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Mental Health issue in the rust belt.


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## Mr.Markus (Jan 7, 2010)

tpendagast said:


> meh...thats mundane.
> 
> IVe seen some weird stuff over the years, but I became aware of a lot that has some WILD freeze/thaw undulations in it, in mid winter...temps well below freezing and sustained like that for months; and supposed theses wild undulations are due to salt applications.
> It's hard to "see" (not very photogenic) but if you drive over it with your truck its a definite "what the...." moment.
> ...


I'm not convinced this is the salts fault as much as it is a bad base...
I have 2 lots that do this, both are a light asphalt layer on top of a base coat mixed with clay . Poor prep means moisture and movement underneath


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## JMHConstruction (Aug 22, 2011)

On the flip side, how many injuries, lawsuits and accidents were prevented by over applying salt? And how many customer complains (or satisfaction) due to over salting vs under salting?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

framer1901 said:


> A few years ago we pretty much had a double winter, no real thaws like usual and pretty cold. One road here, the curb side lane was all wacked out by the end of winter - was it the road warming up during the day and freezing at night, salt or who knows....


Did it eventually go back to normal or close to it once it did thaw?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Mr.Markus said:


> I'm not convinced this is the salts fault as much as it is a bad base...
> I have 2 lots that do this, both are a light asphalt layer on top of a base coat mixed with clay . Poor prep means moisture and movement underneath


Possible 
The area it's in which is called sand lake is a swampy area 
Or was before it was developed 
This is the first year salt had been used there on this lot and the first year I've been aware of it heaving like this

I just heard about it through the grapevine and thought I'd go check it out... thinking "oh someone is exaggerating" until I go there and it was a honest holy **** burgers.

I'm no seismic or geological guru 
But we had a major earthquake right before the onset of our serious winter weather 
Followed by a month that had noticeable aftershocks (4.0-6.0)

I'm thinking the area which is already known for bad soil added with earthquakes has moved around normally loose material that can't resettle because it gets above the frost line and freezes (allotting for the very large bumps and hills in the parking lot) 
Or it has tapped a spring or water table and basically the same thing has happened.

But like I said ... I'm just taking a scientific wild azz guess at it.

I can see concrete and asphalt damage from over application and vegetation die back and possible water shed contamination... but I thought this kind of heaving couldn't be salt. 
It's just a coincidence both things are new this winter (IMO)
It'll be interesting to see how much of it resettles come break up season.

Any way I just wondered if anyone else had ever come across something like that and had salt been blamed for it?


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## framer1901 (Dec 18, 2005)

tpendagast said:


> Did it eventually go back to normal or close to it once it did thaw?


Nope - they fixed it. Probably just plain old frost heave, frost was pretty long that year.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

framer1901 said:


> Nope - they fixed it. Probably just plain old frost heave, frost was pretty long that year.


So they had to dig it up and redo it etc?

Our frost is long and deep here 
No ones messing with that until May


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

It's the base of the blacktop not the salt. For Gods sake if that was the case we would not have any good roads or parking areas. Could also be there is no under drain around the parking area.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

FredG said:


> It's the base of the blacktop not the salt. For Gods sake if that was the case we would not have any good roads or parking areas. Could also be there is no under drain around the parking area.


The customer is convinced it's the salt 
They've ordered the contractor to not use salt anymore 
It's not ME saying it's salt

There's a decent element around here that's opposed to/distrustful of salt applications 
, add on the fact that the majority of contractors now using it aren't experienced in its use and they tend to exude that lack of knowledge/experience when engaged in conversations about it.

Like I said, it's only been used here for about 4 years,,, as recently as 2016 the general consensus was "it's too expensive, it won't work, none will but this service, it won't catch on"

It's like trying to convince your grand parents to use email and take an Uber to their doctors appointment. 
Any excuse in the world, including voodoo why it won't work and the world will end if they try.

Salt here is basically witchcraft


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

Even water heaving damage it will never be right on blacktop, It won't settle correctly, blacktop does not bridge. If it was konkcrete with reinforcement you got a better shot. at least it will bridge for a while but never be right either.

It's all about compaction. The final layer of blacktop etc is the easy part. :laugh:


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

FredG said:


> Even water heaving damage it will never be right on blacktop, It won't settle correctly, blacktop does not bridge. If it was konkcrete with reinforcement you got a better shot. at least it will bridge for a while but never be right either.
> 
> It's all about compaction. The final layer of blacktop etc is the easy part. :laugh:


The real question is 1) how did it heave that much in the middle of the winter (there hasn't been a freeze/thaw cycle) and 2) why now ... the parking lot is not a recent one 
And maybe 3) why THAT much? It's close to 2 feet difference in some areas from normal


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

tpendagast said:


> The customer is convinced it's the salt
> They've ordered the contractor to not use salt anymore
> It's not ME saying it's salt
> 
> ...


 No question salt will cause damage in time. Not heaving or any settling issues. Okay so with no salt how are they going to make the parking lot safe? Price will go away up any other way. I have some idea they have other methods in Alaska, but will involve a sweeper in the spring.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

FredG said:


> No question salt will cause damage in time. Not heaving or any settling issues. Okay so with no salt how are they going to make the parking lot safe? Price will go away up any other way. I have some idea they have other methods in Alaska, but will involve a sweeper in the spring.


It's always been gravel spreading and sweepers

It's still how the vast majority of its done here 
However all the major roads (state) are down to pavement now a days.

Until say 8 or 10 years ago boot spikes were still everyday wear in the winter here 
The floors in the supermarkets looked like bears had broken in and scratched them all up 
Every year

As late as the 90s roads weren't really maintained and especially the parking lots weren't dealt with 
People just drove over it and dealt with it

The post office still has a standing order that all employees wear boot spikes 
We have about half the post offices in anchorage 
Ours are down to pavement 
The other company nope!

The postal workers union on our locations had become quite Whiney about ice, they're spoiled now ... I wonder what they're saying about the locations that don't get salt at all?

The contract reads in such a way as you can use gravel or salt 
But if you gravel you have to seeep it up at your cost 
If you salt, seeeping is paid extra if they request it


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

tpendagast said:


> It's always been gravel spreading and sweepers
> 
> It's still how the vast majority of its done here
> However all the major roads (state) are down to pavement now a days.
> ...


No ambulance chaser commercials in Alaska. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## FredG (Oct 15, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> NYC manhole covers flying in air after salt water creates an electrical explosion
> 
> Worst I personally saw was years of over salting parking lot the concrete light pole finally gave way and timber


 Years ago they use to throw a match in the Sanitary man holes to make sure there was no gasses down there before they entered. Sometime it would move the manhole covers. I dam near died laughing the one time I seen that nut do that.

You certainly don't want to try that now. You got to have two guys on top to pull you out and a gas meter down there. Don't go by those rules today this would be a bad situation with OSHA on site.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Is the op confusing frost heaving for salt damage?

https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/1111i/report.pdf


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> Is the op confusing frost heaving for salt damage?
> 
> https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/1111i/report.pdf


Thanks Sherman...


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Thanks Sherman...


To technical for you?

There are pictures you can look at....

Yes I know pilings are not parking lots but I think it explains what is happening in the ground underneath the parking lots

Yes, I know pilings are not parking lots but I think it explains what is happening in the ground underneath the parking lots
Who knows what is underneath those parking lots there could be trees, boulders and such or the remains of a lumberyard, who knows what they paved over and is now Being pushed up and around by the Frost


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> To technical for you?
> 
> There are pictures you can look at....


Yes...I always read the articles.


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Is the op confusing frost heaving for salt damage?
> 
> https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/1111i/report.pdf


I'm not confusing anything 
I'm not the one who said it was salt

However 
Fairbanks Alaska is about as different as France is from north Africa 
Huge state we may as well be different countries 
Anchorage is more like Vancouver than it is like Fairbanks.... maybe it gets a little colder here, I'm not sure I don't live in Vancouver.
North of the range and the interior is a very different place.

I've never seen frost heaving this bad or as irregular 
It's alnost like pimples

I still think it's somehow earthquake related 
Several roads did that around here on the 7.0

Like I said 
I was just asking if anyone has seen anything remotely like that before (I already assumed the answer was no)


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

FredG said:


> No ambulance chaser commercials in Alaska. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Well
We have some slip n falls 
That's why we do salt at Barnes n noble.

To be honest, graveling works pretty good 
Just makes an awful mess and I have seen falls happen in the spring after melt and before sweeping because people literally tripped/slipped on the beach of gravel in the parking lot.

Parking lot scraping is a thing here 
If you get scraped during break up most of the gravel gets hauled to the snow dump 
But some lots are cheap 
In which case they pay more to get swept anyway.

But no... the ambulance chaser thing isn't nearly as strong here

It's coming

Lots of people keep saying the salt is a fad and people are just trying it out and it's going to go away ; but those are also people who can't figure it out and/or never bothered to start applying in the first place.... so you got to take that with... a grain of salt!


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

tpendagast said:


> meh...thats mundane.
> 
> IVe seen some weird stuff over the years, but I became aware of a lot that has some WILD freeze/thaw undulations in it, in mid winter...temps well below freezing and sustained like that for months; and supposed theses wild undulations are due to salt applications.
> It's hard to "see" (not very photogenic) but if you drive over it with your truck its a definite "what the...." moment.
> ...


Yea,
Where are the pictures?
We have no idea what "shifting " means.

You could have salt damage.
you could have frost Heavs .you could have earthquake damage .
It could be caused by a combination of all of them .you tell us .

Yes, I've seen where the pavement has "alligatored"do to salt, Area where there are chunks that look like a great big jigsaw puzzle . Add more salt and you can have more frost heaving .

Damage to bridges , rusted railings you know the usual

Pics?


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## tpendagast (Oct 27, 2012)

Hydromaster said:


> Yea,
> Where are the pictures?
> We have no idea what "shifting " means.
> 
> ...


And I said 
You can't see it easily 
I couldn't even see it well by looking at it 
When you physically drive over it you notice it 
It's a series of gradual undulations 
No broken asphalt (yet)

The alligatoring is happening elsewhere on the property but not where the big heaving is 
Maybe some potholes where the alligatoring is ..
The weird part I'm talking about is similar to when you have a broken irrigation line and you try to winterize it and it makes big blivots of air in the grass.
Picture that kind of heaving in a parking lot

It hasn't happened in that lot before, this is the first year for both the salt and the heaving (which is basically why they are blaming it on the salt...that and the contractor doing it is doing it too dang heavy)

I wasn't asking for a diagnosis 
All I asked is what's the most extreme thing you've seen before.

The light pole falling over is pretty interesting

I've also seen concrete literally disassemble itself like a wet oatmeal cookie bar , but I think they were using calcium not salt in that application


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

Ps
You can experience frost heaving anywhere it gets cold enough for the ground to freeze .

Be it Alaska or Iowa.


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> Is the op confusing frost heaving for salt damage?
> 
> https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/1111i/report.pdf


There's some pretty zippy math and formulas in that article, didn't think math would be brought into a discussion like this.....

Wardens Grandpa spent 4yrs in Ak '50-'54 while in the army building roads, he's got some pretty good story's and a couple pics of what they did.


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

You asked, as I quoted above.
“The real question is anyone ever seen large portions of a parking lot shift like that while the ground is still frozen due to salt applications?”
This is asking for a diagnosis.

And without seeing what the lot looks like
No one can answer your question.

Could it be related to salt causing it or earthquakes or frost , could be or because of the weather pattern or freeze thaw cycles .


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## BUFF (Dec 24, 2009)

Hydromaster said:


> "The real question is anyone ever seen large portions of a parking lot shift like that while the ground is still frozen due to salt applications?"


Big old *NO......*


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

BUFF said:


> Big old *NO......*


That's it big guy, use your words.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Hydromaster said:


> You asked, as I quoted above.
> "The real question is anyone ever seen large portions of a parking lot shift like that while the ground is still frozen due to salt applications?"
> This is asking for a diagnosis.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a math problem in the making... @Philbilly2


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Sounds like a math problem in the making... @Philbilly2


Still Bizzie...


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Philbilly2 said:


> Still Bizzie...


Eye herd...spilling your latte from the rough ride and HD plow?


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Eye herd...spilling your latte from the rough ride and HD plow?


No spilling here... that is alcohol abuse


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## Philbilly2 (Aug 25, 2007)

Mark Oomkes said:


> Eye herd...spilling your latte from the rough ride and HD plow?


Honestly though, I did have a good time today. Did a nice little 8 or so beer project at the shop.

I attached a skid loader plate to a 10 ft heavyweight that I inherited from a renter that left it behind... she is a gem.  Figured it would make a good yard plow at the shop in case I am not around some time when it snows.

Tested her out today and it at least stayed in one piece. I call it a win.


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## jomama45 (Dec 25, 2008)

Hydromaster said:


> Ps
> You can experience frost heaving anywhere it gets cold enough for the ground to freeze .
> 
> Be it Alaska or Iowa.


It's a little more complex than that, you need at a minimum three factors, to work in conjunction: A water table that's high enough to reach the frost line, freezing temps in the ground, and frost susceptible soils. It's not real common to find all 3 of those together, although it IS more common to find all three in non-virgin soils.........

My guess is that there's some huge rocks under the pavement, probably a few feet below the surface. I've witnessed something similar in Central Wisconsin (God's Country......) years ago, huge "rollers"in a rural road that was caused by huge boulders under the raos, at least according to local lore.........


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## Hydromaster (Jun 11, 2018)

jomama45 said:


> It's a little more complex than that, you need at a minimum three factors, to work in conjunction: A water table that's high enough to reach the frost line, freezing temps in the ground, and frost susceptible soils. It's not real common to find all 3 of those together, although it IS more common to find all three in non-virgin soils.........
> ......


While The water table can/could play a role ,it is not necessary . Also frost heaving can occur in disturbed soil's

The volume increase that occurs when water changes to ice was at first thought to be the cause of frost heave, but it is now recognized that the phenomenon known as ice segregation is the basic mechanism.

Water is drawn from unfrozen soil to the freezing zone where it attaches to form layers of ice, forcing soil particles apart and causing the soil surface to heave. Without physical restraint there is no apparent limit to the amount of heaving that may occur.

https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrNIUos40NcImIAwztx.9w4;_ylu=X3oDMTByNXQ0NThjBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM1BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1547981740/RO=10/RU=http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=14874&context=rtd/RK=2/RS=FAE7GDclilfVCglNFUteQrEHGns-&httpsredir=1&article=14874&context=rtd


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## Brian Young (Aug 13, 2005)

When I first started I was a sub for a large company that picked up a brand new Lowes and the first winter he salted so much it disintegrated all their cement parking bumpers, all that was left was basically the rebar


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