# Suggested Industry Standard Pricing



## jerry andersen

Post your thoughts and area. Lets see how many replies we get.


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## jcesar

oh no!!!!!!!


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## jerry andersen

Oh no what we not talking about price fixing


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## Mick

jerry andersen;336130 said:


> Oh no what we not talking about price fixing


Ok. What do you call it?


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## LLM Ann Arbor

A great idea?

Comin Mick. The only time you can get two people on the same page here in this business is when one guys got his nose up the butt of the next guy.

Like price fixing is even feasible, and what if it was.

Who would stop it and how.

Gonna call out the national gaurd on a bunch of snow shovelers?


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## jerry andersen

suggested pricing like suggest manufacture retail price


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## carcrz

It would only work if it pertained to zones. It wouldn't work if we charged the same as the guys up North mainly because we only get a few pushes a year. That alone raises the rates a bit.


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## starc

he he he...let me know how it works out for you guys...
I just raised all my salting prices by $70 per application just because...


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## jcesar

If it isnt price fixing, then what is it? How can you justify the Guy in Michigan getting the same as the guy in Florida? You guys and your pricing standards, or whatever you call them, are crazy. 

Ann Arbor, i dont want to make the same money you do. You are always saying you are broke!!!!


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## jcesar

By the way Ann Arbor, 
Have you found a new butt for YOUR NOSE YET?


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## LLM Ann Arbor

starc;336300 said:


> he he he...let me know how it works out for you guys...
> I just raised all my salting prices by $70 per application just because...


Just because you'll only get to salt four times this year?


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## LLM Ann Arbor

jcesar;336307 said:


> If it isnt price fixing, then what is it? How can you justify the Guy in Michigan getting the same as the guy in Florida? You guys and your pricing standards, or whatever you call them, are crazy.
> 
> Ann Arbor, i dont want to make the same money you do. You are always saying you are broke!!!!


They get plowable snow in Florida?

Next time you see it....go take a photo with your polaroid camera.


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## dmontgomery

I hate this pricing standards stuff... Seems like alot of whining to me. The last thing we need is more government/regulations related to anything. What's next subsities for snow plowers. Come on...... This is America, the land of opportunity. You either need to figure out how to be successful in a free competitive market........ or if you can't compete then it's time to find other work........

Businesses fail all the time.........that's part of the freedom.....

D


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## Mick

jerry andersen;336201 said:


> suggested pricing like suggest manufacture retail price


You manufacture snow and will be suggesting a selling price?

Ok, go ahead. You start and let us know the "suggested price".

The closest thing I've heard of to this is a management company who tells the plow guy what they'll pay.

Actually, standardized pricing in any form won't work because the associated costs vary by region. For example, my insurance rates are not even close to someone from Newark, New Jersey. So he would have to charge way more just to make as much as I do. To suggest we charge the same for the similar sites is ridiculous.


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## basher

LLM Ann Arbor;336200 said:


> A great idea?
> 
> Eatable underwear
> 
> Comin Mick. The only time you can get two people on the same page here in this business is when one guys got his nose up the butt of the next guy.
> 
> Ah scented Charmin
> 
> Like price fixing is even feasible, and what if it was.
> 
> The Lazy Overpaid Plow Operators of America are diametrically opposed to price fixing, and support the emasculation of anyone with a lower price structure then ourselves.
> 
> Who would stop it and how.
> 
> Judge Judy, with the assistance and support of The Lazy Overpaid Plow Operators of America who are diametrically opposed to price fixing
> 
> Gonna call out the national gaurd on a bunch of snow shovelers?


Only the ones in Waco.


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## GetMore

Fuel costs are another thing that varies by region.


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## Mark Oomkes

Basher, that was priceless, I vote for your post as laugh of the day.

jcesar, nice call. 

If you don't want to call it price fixing, how about collusion or a monopoly. Good luck with whatever you do.


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## jerry andersen

Could we not break it down by state or city it is only a suggested price. Of course you will have the bad jobs that require more work so you have to charge more. It could help with everything from paying subs/getting payed as a sub to salting. As for learning to be profitable? How many times have you put in a bid to be beat by a million dollar company by 30% and another big company comes in more than you. Also how many bids have you got that later you thought i probably could have got just a little more. I don't have all the answer's just thought we in the industry could come together and really help each other.


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## Brian Young

IT WOULD NEVER WORK! GIVE IT UP Way too many things to consider, This industry is on both ends of the specrum there could never possibly be any meeting in the middle. Just look at the "driveway prices" threads, I have trouble getting $15.00 whopin bucks and other guys are getting 25-30 bucks for the same thing. Some subs are getting $75/hr and some are getting $35/hr. This smells like a "maintenance company" looking to see if they were screwed!


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## jerry andersen

dmontgomery are you more profitable at plowing or your day job. It's hard to compete with the part timers.


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## jerry andersen

Mr. Young i'm not a maintenance company looking to see if i got screwed. I work for my self.


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## Brian Young

jerry andersen;336399 said:


> dmontgomery are you more profitable at plowing or your day job. It's hard to compete with the part timers.


Oh here we go again, part-time vs. full time plowers bla, bla, bla. I see what your trying to say but unless every aspect of living is equal like cost of living, fuel prices, friggin groceries, everything, "suggested retail price" will never work.


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## Brian Young

jerry andersen;336400 said:


> Mr. Young i'm not a maintenance company looking to see if i got screwed. I work for my self.


Well then you of all people should know, that price fixing will not work. What if it did and the "new price" fell $20.00/hr because of lowballer's and people who have no clue as to what to bid. In your area you would all be screwed.


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## jerry andersen

Here is one problem i see with no industry standard you leave the door open for 3rd party companies to do what they are doing. Giving your customer a lower price call you and offer you to let you do the work for 50% less than you did last year. Here is the thing it's working for them. I'm not working for 50% less but the new guys or part time guys will.


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## jerry andersen

I'm not putting down the part timers everyone starts somewhere. But if we had something to help them & everyone to keep spending money


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## Mark Oomkes

Great concept, but it won't work. The hourly rates that prices are based on just in GR are anywhere's from $60\hour\truck to $150\hour\truck. THese are just some comapnies that I know. This doesn't include the idiots that were bidding driveways at $125 for the season. THAT IS NOT A TYPO.

Then, you get the scumbag 'established' companies that are the real lowballers, that will 'agree' with your concept and as soon as they start bidding, will underbid just to get the work because that's the way they are. 

So I'm not holding my breath just due to human nature.


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## Brian Young

jerry andersen;336406 said:


> Here is one problem i see with no industry standard you leave the door open for 3rd party companies to do what they are doing. Giving your customer a lower price call you and offer you to let you do the work for 50% less than you did last year. Here is the thing it's working for them. I'm not working for 50% less but the new guys or part time guys will.


Well jerry, as odd as this may sound, those guys even though they are considerably lower in price often can not keep up with nor have the resources for a full season of plowing often become a sub after a season or two or just get out of plowing all together. We have had countless commercial customer's call us this year all saying the same thing "our last guy stopped showing up in Feb. or March" can you give us a bid. I go in and sell ourselves and not just the service we are providing, we stopped taking accounts in September!


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## Mark Oomkes

The other problem with a suggested retail price or MSRP is that we are not manufacturers, we are service providers. Big difference, actually, all the difference in the world.

Due to differing levels of service requirements, different overhead costs, different labor costs, it just won't work. Sorry to be negative.


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## jerry andersen

I never started this thread to pick a fight with anyone. I'm not interested in bringing the industry pricing down any more than it already has (while everything else is going up).
There are jobs now paying the same as they were 8yrs ago.BIG PROBLEM


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## Mark Oomkes

jerry andersen;336415 said:


> I never started this thread to pick a fight with anyone. I'm not interested in bringing the industry pricing down any more than it already has (while everything else is going up).
> There are jobs now paying the same as they were 8yrs ago.BIG PROBLEM


I agree wholeheartedly. Most if not all of this can be blamed on area management type companies. Still doesn't make price fixing\collusion\monopoly right.

Besides, with these same types running the companies you're trying to do this with, they'll just stab you in the back and lowball it. Guaranteed.


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## Brian Young

jerry andersen;336415 said:


> I never started this thread to pick a fight with anyone. I'm not interested in bringing the industry pricing down any more than it already has (while everything else is going up).
> There are jobs now paying the same as they were 8yrs ago.BIG PROBLEM


I know what ya mean jerry, there is a huge Mall in my area and it was plowed by Simboyt and they went belly up and a big landscape company got it. When I was friends with these guys I was riding around with them and I asked if they ever considered the Mall, they said hell no its a half million dollar account and Simboyt's doing it for 220k. Well guess who's doing it for 2k per push? that same company. At 2k per push that ='s under 100k for the season. And there already has been two accidents at the main entrance due to no salt when it was needed. Every year it seems people get cheaper and there is less and less good service.


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## jerry andersen

Mark listen we are not talking about a fixed price and everyone charges it. But a suggestion from all your peers. Now what you do with the suggestion is up to you.


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## Mick

Ok. Let's say this is a workable idea. Who is going to set the pricing? Using common sense, it will be the larger companies for any given area. The little guy (at best) would have representative input (very little). So, now you're going to have pricing set by the lowest common denominator. The little guy is stuck with pricing a driveway based on pricing used to determine the price for a mall. Another scenario would have this "committee" set pricing for small lots/driveways, again using the same principles they used for setting pricing for the malls. Remember, the management companies are not interested in small lots or driveways unless they had them most or all for a given area. Then, they would sub them out and the plow guy makes even less. So, let's say they set the price at $20 per driveway in order to get at least half the driveways in a given area. Now, you can either sub for the management company at $10 (or less) per driveway or go out on your own for the other half, in which case you will, at best, get your "share" of the remainder which will be split among all the plow guys in that area. Can you really afford to stay in business for $20 per driveway (which is 1/3 of what you'd charge now) and get maybe two or three drives in that area?

If you think you're going to keep management companies out, you're mistaken. They really have many advantages, including that they're not dependent on breakdowns, etc. If a sub can't perform for some reason, the regional manager just calls the next sub. Who do you call when you're broke down or sick? I don't know about you, but there is nobody I could call for the whole route. One or two, yes, when he's done with his. 

Even if you could get standard pricing to work somehow, I wouldn't want it. I'd quit plowing first.


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## SnoFarmer

It would be great for people who can not figure their costs.

But why do you want someone else setting your prices?

What happened to competition, free enterprise, capitalism?

Poorly run business should fail and well run business should flourish.

I for one do not need big brother to tell me how much or how little to charge.

Next your going to demand we shovel walks too........


P.s. and every thing Basher said!!!:waving:


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## jerry andersen

Mick i have read several of your post and i have a very high level of respect for you. Now this suggested pricing is only a suggestion. It would be feed back from everyone you will need to determine if it will work for your overhead. What it may help with is the industry being driven down by the ones that are only here 1 2 maybe 3yrs. If you put a post in saying $100.00 per acer for plowing. That will have more value than if i say it. You have more post that people can look at to get a idea of what kind of peer you are.

Don't give up plowing yet it's only a thought of how to put strength into the industry.
As far as the out of state maintenance companies i might not be able to stop them but i sure don't have to like them.


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## dmontgomery

If it snows I can make $200-300 an hour on my route. I really only took up plowing when I owned an apartment building and thought is was better to buy a plow then pay someone else. I then added the service for my lawn customers. This year I have added 2 small businesses with salting. I also do some sub work now. As a fulltime firefighter I make a good living but not what I can earn if it would actually snow. My overhead is really low because my insurance is shared by my LCO and my co. that owns/manages the rentals..... 

I have salted 2x so far this year...

D


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## jerry andersen

How much you pay employees? Or maybe the real ? is do you own a company or do you really own a part time job. There is a difference.


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## dmontgomery

SnoFarmer;336463 said:


> It would be great for people who can not figure their costs.


 Those are the people who will go out of business and don't show up in Feb or March,.....


SnoFarmer;336463 said:


> But why do you want someone else setting your prices?
> 
> What happened to competition, free enterprise, capitalism?


exactly that is the system that works.....for those who know how to operate within it



SnoFarmer;336463 said:


> Poorly run business should fail and well run business should flourish.


 yes, why would we want to do something that will benefit the companys that will go out of business and not be a competitor anyway...........



SnoFarmer;336463 said:


> I for one do not need big brother to tell me how much or how little to charge.
> 
> Next your going to demand we shovel walks too........
> 
> P.s. and every thing Basher said!!!:waving:


There are hardly any people around here doing driveways. I have found a need and worked hard to fill it. When/if it snows it is very profitable for me....


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## dmontgomery

If you are talking to me.......I am an LLC, insured and licensed. I collect and submit sales tax and pay income tax as required by law.....

There are no employees.....just me.....I don't want/need those headaches.....


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## Mick

Thank you, Jerry. But consider that in my plowing area, I am the only one on Plowsite or any other snowplow-related site. Not one of my "competitors" have ever been here, as far as I know. My Username and location would make me easily identifable. 

For me to say a particular lot/drive/area is worth $100 is meaningless to anyone else on PS. And for me to say the same about to anyone else in my area is also meaningless. We all know each other, what drives/lots we all plow and what each other charges. Typical is what happened last year when a guy bought a truck and plow. He offered one of my customers a real deal. Standardized pricing wouldn't stop that. Likewise, in a larger metro area, standardized pricing wouldn't stop undercutting unless there was government regulation prohibiting it. Look at how WalMart moves into an area - by undercutting pricing of established businesses. 

No, sorry, but I think standardizing pricing without regulation would only make it easier for someone to undercut the market. To stay competitive will require a thorough analysis of your costs in relation to your market.


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## SnoFarmer

I own and run my company we do more than plow snow.
Employees get paid what their worth.
A good employee always gets paid more than a bad one.

I do not need or want someone else controlling how much I can make.


Respectfully jerry andersen, what your describing is getting very close to a UNION.

I'm not about to let a UNION run my company.


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## jerry andersen

Mick
Light travels faster than the speed of sound
That is why some people appear bright until they speak

I know you know what this means


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## jerry andersen

Farmer i thought firemen were union. Thats not it i'm talking about lets say 30 people in your area get together and talk about their pricing is there any valuable info there


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## jerry andersen

SORRY farmer that was meant for dmontgomery


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## LLM Ann Arbor

dmontgomery;336474 said:


> If it snows I can make $200-300 an hour on my route. I really only took up plowing when I owned an apartment building and thought is was better to buy a plow then pay someone else. I then added the service for my lawn customers. This year I have added 2 small businesses with salting. I also do some sub work now. As a fulltime firefighter I make a good living but not what I can earn if it would actually snow. My overhead is really low because my insurance is shared by my LCO and my co. that owns/manages the rentals.....
> 
> I have salted 2x so far this year...
> 
> D


Does every firefighter on the planet plow snow? Or is it just me.

I got a bucket, garden hose and a ladder. I should fight fires.


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## dmontgomery

Unfortunately I am in a Union. One that protects lazy, trouble making, worthless employees that fill jobs that good people would kill to have..... They get my weekly dues and that is the only support from me.........


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## Mark Oomkes

jerry andersen;336490 said:


> Mick
> Light travels faster than the speed of sound
> That is why some people appear bright until they speak
> 
> I know you know what this means


So, who are you insulting?

OK, $100 per acre. What is the acre like? Is it 8' wide by however many feet long and one pass and it is clear? Or is it only 2 parking spaces scattered all over with islands?

The only thing you can close to standardizing is the amount of time it takes to plow an acre or a set amount of square feet. THis has already been done.

Then throw in that I can plow that acre at least 30% faster with my Blizzard 8611LP than you can with your 7.5' Western. And, just for argument's sake, I've been plowing for 20 years (which I have) and you just started. I guarantee it's going to take you most likely twice as long to plow the same lot as me. Even with that example and if we use the same truck\plow, I will still be able to plow it faster than you. Because of experience.

Yes, this can work both ways, should I get paid more for my experience or should I lower the price because I am more productive? In a free country, that's up to me to decide, not up to my agreement. What if I decide that I want a customer and I am willing to dig into my profit margin and lower my price? Isn't that my prerogative (sp?) ?? That'll really throw this whole thing off.

What if I want to give the 90 YO widow next door a break and do it for $5 per trip or free? How does that fit into this model?

You still have not addressed the differences that we all have in overhead, labor and profit costs. Even in one city or region. How are you going to overcome this?


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## dmontgomery

it's just you........... only 2 of the 60 I work with do it........

but see you are also gutless that that doesn't fly in the fire service........


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## jerry andersen

firemen have a nice deal 24hrs on 48hrs off


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## LLM Ann Arbor

dmontgomery;336503 said:


> Unfortunately I am in a Union. One that protects lazy, trouble making, worthless employees that fill jobs that good people would kill to have..... They get my weekly dues and that is the only support from me.........


Yeah and if it wasn't for that union and unions in general youd be making 7 dollars an hour.

So would everyone else.


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## LLM Ann Arbor

I hate to say it but rather than a an industry standard, Id love to see a business license requirement and licensing to plow snow and enforcement of the law.

That would get rid of all these lowballing under the table hacks tomorrow, and prices would stabilize.


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## dmontgomery

LLM Ann Arbor;336507 said:


> Yeah and if it wasn't for that union and unions in general youd be making 7 dollars an hour.
> 
> So would everyone else.


well I wouldn't be.....because I left a career in computers to become a FF. It's not about the money for me. Hence the reason I have I second job......

I know plenty of non-union firefighters that make good money.....


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## LLM Ann Arbor

dmontgomery;336510 said:


> well I wouldn't be.....because I left a career in computers to become a FF. It's not about the money for me. Hence the reason I have I second job......
> 
> I know plenty of non-union firefighters that make good money.....


'

Because if they didn't the union would be able to organize.

Thats what I mean by saying everyone who makes a good wage has unions to thank for it whether they belong to one, or not.


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## SnoFarmer

jerry andersen;336492 said:


> Farmer i thought firemen were union. Thats not it i'm talking about lets say 30 people in your area get together and talk about their pricing is there any valuable info there


Yes, I believe everyone is curious as to what the other guy is charging.



jerry andersen;336496 said:


> SORRY farmer that was meant for dmontgomery


no proublem...


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## Mark Oomkes

LLM Ann Arbor;336501 said:


> Does every firefighter on the planet plow snow? Or is it just me.
> 
> I got a bucket, garden hose and a ladder. I should fight fires.


OK, LLM, I'm sick and tired of it. SHUT UP and get over that some people are ambitious enought to have 2 jobs instead of sitting in front of their computers *****ing about no snow, no money, no work etc, etc. Think about who is more than willing to run into a burning building to save your sorry ass, any time, any day, any where. Believe it or not, even if you were in my jurisdiction, I would risk my life for your sorry, *****ing, pissing, moaning carcass because it's my job, that I am proud and willing to do. Get off your freaking high horse and be thankful that there are people out there willing to sacrifice for this country and it's citizens.


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## dmontgomery

jerry andersen;336506 said:


> firemen have a nice deal 24hrs on 48hrs off


you got it........


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## LLM Ann Arbor

Take your meds Mark.

We all weren't fortunate enough to have Daddy give us his business like you were.


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## dmontgomery

Mark Oomkes;336516 said:


> OK, LLM, I'm sick and tired of it. SHUT UP and get over that some people are ambitious enought to have 2 jobs instead of sitting in front of their computers *****ing about no snow, no money, no work etc, etc. Think about who is more than willing to run into a burning building to save your sorry ass, any time, any day, any where. Believe it or not, even if you were in my jurisdiction, I would risk my life for your sorry, *****ing, pissing, moaning carcass because it's my job, that I am proud and willing to do. Get off your freaking high horse and be thankful that there are people out there willing to sacrifice for this country and it's citizens.


excellent point he's got 885 posts in 3 months....you need a another job........

I would drag his sorry butt out too....... probably by the hair though:waving:


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## Mark Oomkes

LLM Ann Arbor;336509 said:


> I hate to say it but rather than a an industry standard, Id love to see a business license requirement and licensing to plow snow and enforcement of the law.
> 
> That would get rid of all these lowballing under the table hacks tomorrow, and prices would stabilize.


This is such an ignorant statement it isn't funny. How many unlicensed drivers are on the road EVERY day? How many unlicensed drivers kill or injure someone EVERY day? I could go on, but this is just one example.

Tone it down, LLM, I'm really close to getting banned because of your ignorant comments. And someone like you is not worth my being banned.


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## LLM Ann Arbor

What you do and how you respond is up to you Mark.

Im having legitimate conversation here about a great topic.


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## SnoFarmer

LLM Ann Arbor;336509 said:


> I hate to say it but rather than a an industry standard, Id love to see a business license requirement and licensing to plow snow and *enforcement of the law*.
> 
> That would get rid of all these lowballing under the table hacks tomorrow, and prices would stabilize.


So your all for a city or state setting your prices for you?.
A hack (cabbie) tow trucks, in my area are all regulated by the city as how much they can charge.

Ann, so you are going to fix every thing on your truck and start to run a legitimate business?
When are you going to get your LLC, INS, and hang you your own shingle?



LLM Ann Arbor;336512 said:


> '
> 
> Because if they didn't the union would be able to organize.
> 
> Thats what I mean by saying everyone who makes a good wage has unions to thank for it whether they belong to one, or not.


Bull!!!!! 
It does not reward the good employee nor punish the bad employee.
Both of them are going to get the same raise regardless of their productively.


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## dmontgomery

SnoFarmer;336527 said:


> It does not reward the good employee nor punish the bad employee.
> Both of them are going to get the same raise regardless of their productively.


yep........there is no incentive to excel other than your own pride...........

My wife sees the same thing in the schools with the teachers unions. The administrators know they have crappy teachers and can't do anything about it......


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## LLM Ann Arbor

While i dont disagree that some unions give a little too much power to slackers.....Schools have a little thing called tenure thats a lot more powerful than any union, and it makes it not just more difficult to oust a bad employee. It makes it impossible.


But....we hijack the thread.

Sorry bout that gang.

Back to the topic at hand.


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## SnoFarmer

LLM Ann Arbor;336535 said:


> While i dont disagree that some unions give a little too much power to slackers.....Schools have a little thing called tenure thats a lot more powerful than any union, and it makes it not just more difficult to oust a bad employee. It makes it impossible.
> 
> But....we hijack the thread.
> 
> Sorry bout that gang.
> 
> Back to the topic at hand.


Wrong, All unions........... I belonged to a union AFSCME.

off topic
Not we, you.

we were on topic untill you woke up from your nap...


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## Mick

Mark Oomkes;336504 said:


> So, who are you insulting?


Wow, I leave for a few minutes and look what happens. I initially took it that he was directing that at me, just not sure why. I gave what I considered a reasoned response addressing my opposition to standardized pricing. I think I've been pretty consistent in being against square foot or any form of standardized pricing. I have also been consistent in advocating the developing of a business plan before you even start soliciting business. Once I think about it, maybe the substance of the remark was actually aimed someone else.


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## Mick

Lunch time. See you in an hour or so.:waving:


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## jerry andersen

Mick the commit was aimed at someone else but i'm sure you have seen a few of these people in your time on here.


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## Mark Oomkes

LLM Ann Arbor;336518 said:


> Take your meds Mark.
> 
> We all weren't fortunate enough to have Daddy give us his business like you were.


Once again, showing your complete ignorance and utter lack of respect for other humans who work for a living.

The only thing my daddy gave me was my life and 13 years of private schooling. I paid cash for my college while I worked full time. And I am in the process of purchasing the business from him. Not given.

And once again, you dodge the issue while insulting me personally. Why in God's green earth can't you argue facts instead of insulting someone who proves you wrong? Why? You won't even answer this question, because you can't and you know it.

He doesn't need another job, he needs a job. PERIOD.

Mick, I didn't think it was directed at you either, still wondering who it was directed at because thankfully at that time LLM hadn't entered this debate yet. Now that he has, another thread down the crapper, like most of his.


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## Mark Oomkes

Back on topic. 

Jerry, how long have you been in the green and\or white industries? How about a little background on yourself? 

For the most part, I have enjoyed this debate, despite our disagreement on the issue.


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## Mark Oomkes

Just looking back at this topic, any chance the mods can give a warning to LLM since he couldn't keep his trap shut and forced this issue so far off topic, just as he has in so many threads?????

Or just ban him altogether?


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## jerry andersen

Ok lets settle down now and be productive. Its seem like every time anyone talks about pricing we end up with 2 or 3 people having a pissing contest. I think most of us would like something productive come from the time we put into being on here. It does not matter if you work at odd lots to me. We all need to join together and do what we can to add strength to the industry we love to work in.


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## jerry andersen

3rd year back now. Went through some bad times about 8yrs before i started back this time. Which made me deiced to quit. I always miss the industry but never realized how much until i started back at it.I guess the thing this time around is i realized all the mistakes i made the first time and as a growing company not making those mistakes again. I won't blow smoke i"m not a large company there is still just a few of us.


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## LLM Ann Arbor

Good thread Jerry. I started one just like it not too long ago. Got beat up for it too, but no matter. I can take the heat.

Like I said....I think State or munincipal licensing and some regulation of this industry would solve a lot of the problems you have pointed out. Im not big government, but there are a lot of people doing this without insurance, without paying taxes or filing a tax return, and some of the equioment I see out there is unsafe at best, and not road worthy (iE Overloaded v-boxes and trucks for one).

I have a business license to be able to apply Pesticides and there are requirements, and an inspector thats paid from the dollars generated by the fee's.

They wouldn't set prices, just like they dont in the Fertilizing venture, but I have to believe it would solve a lot of the problems with this industry, and the pricing variables and discrepencies.

It really irks me to pull up to some "fellow plower" knowing he will bid a job that I just bid at a legitimate and fair price with half the number, because he has no insurance, and is under the radar, and do a poor job to boot.

Let the market bare itself out and weed these guys out, but at the prices they charge, they in efect, are "fixing" prices for all of us. 

Im not for stiffeling ones opportunities, but in retrospect its guys like that that stifle all of our opportunities because they do business the way they do. Maybe not each day, but weve all had frustrations with thesetypes of operators over the years or at some time.


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## Mick

Jerry, I got to thinking about this thread over my Baked Ham dinner. I have to hand it to you on starting a good thread on a pertinent subject. There have been some posts that I think weren't productive, but there were also good points made on each side of the issue. Yes, I agree that all bids in a given area should be within 10% to 15% of each other, but realistically that's not going to happen. Just as in the construction industry, which requires more captital for starts-up, there are going to be companies that are always higher or lower than others. There are always reasons for this, usually having to do with quality of workmanship, materials or reputation. 

Based on my work-life experience, if you set an "average" or expectation, the first thing some people/companies will do is try to figure how they can work around it. Or in this case - be just under it.


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## Mark Oomkes

LLM, please respond to my post regarding unlicensed drivers if you truly believe that licensing is the answer. Also, maybe you could explain how the current licensing required by many municipalities has not already weeded out the lowballers and unlicensed? 

The easy answer is lack of enforcement. GR has licensing requirements, which I meet, but there are probably a couple hundred that don't. They require the company name and I think a phone number on the side, but they don't even check for this when issuing a license, it can all be done by mail. I can get a valid license, but not meet their requirements. So are the cities or states going to start another beauracracy that will enforce plowing licenses when they have shown they can't even enforce the laws with regards to pesticide applicators, drivers, and who knows how many other things? Why is it that any Joe Blow that has a dba can walk into Lesco and buy the same products that I do and then go apply them? They shouldn't even be allowed to purchase fertilizer of pesticides? 

So if licensing has failed in so many other areas, how is it going to help with plowing?

PS How's that for civility?


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## jerry andersen

I hope you guys will be on later i'm going to try to get back on tonight we will start digging into it remember no pissing everyones opinion counts. But for now i got to do some work or the boss (my wife) won't be happy if the mortgage is not paid or the lights get shut off. hehehehe Really got to go to work


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## LLM Ann Arbor

Thats why I made sure to say the regulations need to be enforced. Mark.

If they aren't enforced that doesn't mean the law or theory behind having it, isn't sound.


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## Mark Oomkes

Yeah, and I just pointed out a couple that have failed miserably. How many more are there out there. I hate to be negative, but it just won't work. If the court system can't\won't do anything with the people that drive without licenses, which I believe is a felony sooner or later, are you advocating jail time for someone who is plowing without a license?


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## LLM Ann Arbor

I dunno Mark. Im just trying to legitimize this business and get the lowball under the table guys the hell out of it, and nothings perfect but you cant argue it wouldn't put the brakes on a lot of them. Or maybe you can.

It's just a thought. It's not like it will ever happen and I'm not writing my Congressman or Rep and begging for new legislation.

Frankly I'm focusing on my Lawn Care/Fertilizing business where theres less competition because it's a specialty, and does have some legal requirements, that every man with a pickup truck cant meet. Plus it's where my experience is and I'm good at it.

If that takes off like I'm hoping, in a few years I wont even have to own a plow.


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## jerry andersen

ok i'm back. Lets start with driveways in my area they are usually $25-$30


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## Rcgm

Mark Oomkes;336564 said:


> Just looking back at this topic, any chance the mods can give a warning to LLM since he couldn't keep his trap shut and forced this issue so far off topic, just as he has in so many threads?????
> 
> Or just ban him altogether?


Are you freaking kidding me?Is this high school?You guys argue like little girls on the playground.I read crap and I mean crap on some of these threads everyday.I flipped off the handle one time on this site for a comment about me and said never again.I might post my point of view or defend myself.I don't plan on swearing up and down or calling someone a ***** ASS LOL.So you suggest ban a guy for him making a few comments you don't like?Crazy.Come on guys if you don't like a comment someone makes don't respond this is a free country he can say what he wants when he wants and so can you even if it is saying ***** ASS:

RCGM
BRAD


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## jcesar

LLM Ann Arbor;336509 said:


> I hate to say it but rather than a an industry standard, Id love to see a business license requirement and licensing to plow snow and enforcement of the law.
> 
> That would get rid of all these lowballing under the table hacks tomorrow, and prices would stabilize.


So you would have to get a real job?prsport


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## jcesar

I think the whole "Industry standard" Idea is crazy. Ann Arbor appearantly missed my point of the guy in Florida vs the Guy in Michigan. What I meant was if you take 2 guys from different areas, they dont have the same weather. How can 1 guy who plows 20 times a year, get the same as the other , who plows 10 times per year? CRAZY 

Again, ANN ARBOR
DEMOGRAPHICS. I see you still cant use a dictionary


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## jerry andersen

unbelievable now were back to pissing on each other.
read the post this would be for different state/cities
now if it is a argument you want start a thread thats says lets fight


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## jcesar

No one is pissing on anyone, unless they are asking to be pissed on. But if you want to include the fighting, then we can start one. Either way, all I do is post my opinion, and I get pissed on by certain people here, for everything I say, because it does not conform to what they think . So that in essense, is picking an arguement with me. If you want to "debate" a point, then i am all about it. I have been in the self employed industry, and snowplowing for a few days now, so I think i might just know something. But I could be wrong too


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## jerry andersen

ok then why would it be so crazy for 30 people or maybe 100 people in your area getting together and establishing an average suggested price. wouldn't you be interested not only for snow but even the mowing/mulch/fertilizing and so on


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## toby4492

*Wow what a thread. * :yow!: :yow!: Some good debate all around here. I would have to agree that standardized pricing in this industry nor in any other industry will work. This is America where we operate under a free enterprise system. This is not a communist country where we are all employees of a dictorial government. If you think about it competition is what keeps this country strong and thriving.

Are all brands of 7'6" snowplows priced the same? 8' V-box spreaders? 42" Plasma tv's?

Pricing in any industry is based on costs, overhead, brand, performance etc... Hell I live in a small WI town with 6 gas stations and everyone has a different price per gallon of unleaded.

Even industries that are regulated such as the trucking industry have differences in rates for products shipped to the same locale. The key to survival in any industry is the ability to compete with those around you. If you provide excellent service at a fair price I would suspect that you will out perform and survive longer than those that you would prefer are not in this business.

Just my $0.02


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## jerry andersen

toby are you say it will or won't work


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## LLM Ann Arbor

jcesar;336807 said:


> I think the whole "Industry standard" Idea is crazy. Ann Arbor appearantly missed my point of the guy in Florida vs the Guy in Michigan. What I meant was if you take 2 guys from different areas, they dont have the same weather. How can 1 guy who plows 20 times a year, get the same as the other , who plows 10 times per year? CRAZY
> 
> Again, ANN ARBOR
> DEMOGRAPHICS. I see you still cant use a dictionary


They plow ten times a year in Florida?

Hell I should move there. It hasn't snowed once here since last january.


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## LLM Ann Arbor

jcesar;336832 said:


> No one is pissing on anyone, unless they are asking to be pissed on. But if you want to include the fighting, then we can start one. Either way, all I do is post my opinion, and I get pissed on by certain people here, for everything I say, because it does not conform to what they think . So that in essense, is picking an arguement with me. If you want to "debate" a point, then i am all about it. I have been in the self employed industry, and snowplowing for a few days now, so I think i might just know something. But I could be wrong too


Looks like you only spent a few days in english class too.

Doh!


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## LLM Ann Arbor

toby4492;336853 said:


> *Wow what a thread. * :yow!: :yow!: Some good debate all around here. I would have to agree that standardized pricing in this industry nor in any other industry will work. This is America where we operate under a free enterprise system. This is not a communist country where we are all employees of a dictorial government. If you think about it competition is what keeps this country strong and thriving.


I wanna here you come back and say that again when Toyota starts manufacturing plows and shipping them here by the boatload.


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## toby4492

jerry andersen;336855 said:


> toby are you say it will or won't work


I am saying that I do not see how it can work. All of you for the most part operate differently, have different overheads etc...  Besides that it comes awfully close too or represents price fixing. 

As an example I work for a manufacturer of high end snow removal equipment and sell to dealers and distributors. Even with a MSRP that is published I can not set pricing for my dealers or their market areas. Doing so would be illegal. What I can do is assist the dealer is assessing his market and collect competitive pricing in his area to allow him to establish his market price.

The key that I see is being able to offer a better product that is competitively priced for the market area. In the snow removal industry your better product would be superior service than those that compete with you for the same accounts.


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## toby4492

LLM Ann Arbor;336858 said:


> I wanna here you come back and say that again when Toyota starts manufacturing plows and shipping them here by the boatload.


Well hello Ann. If and when Toyota starts producing and importing plows to the US I would certainly welcome the competition. I would suspect that they are plenty busy with the big 3 auto makers here in the US that I won't see it in my lifetime.


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## LLM Ann Arbor

Youd welcome the competition?

Comon. Thats a nice line you got there but I dont buy it for a second.

Did the mom and pop department stores welcome the competition Wal Mart brought to the table?

With all due respect, get real. This isn't a politically correct sales seminar.

You can lay those lines off in a corporate meeting but they dont fly here.

Not with me anyhow. If Toyota decided to produce plows, youd be reading the want ad's for a new job and scared to death Toby.


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## toby4492

LLM Ann Arbor;336871 said:


> Youd welcome the competition?
> 
> Comon. Thats a nice line you got there but I dont buy it for a second.
> 
> Did the mom and pop department stores welcome the competition Wal Mart brought to the table?
> 
> With all due respect, get real. This isn't a politically correct sales seminar.


Obviously we are made from a different mold. 

If I feared competition as you appear to, I would have gotten out of this business along time ago. Over my years in this industry I have seen more companies get into the business whether with plows or spreaders and it certainlly has gotten more competitive every year. The only way competition will ever upset me is when it starts costing US labor forces their jobs.


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## toby4492

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread and get off topic.


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## Rowski

*Some questions*

What would be standardized? Per hour, per square foot, per acre, per job??? 6" fluffy snow, 6" heavy wet snow??? Rural or urban?? Just way to many variables to consider.

Not sure what would be fair, can't keep everyone happy. Can't keep everyone happy now without standardization.

It would seem to me that equipment size for the job would be a non issue for the standardized price. In other words if use a nice big loader with a pusher vs a pickup with V plow, you could get more done in less time. That would be a personal business decision.

How would one enforce it? We can't enforce the laws we have now.

What would protect the consumer? The price standard sure wouldn't.

Derek


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## poncho62

*Now that we have the rates set, we better get together on how much of this we claim as income on our taxes...............................*


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## SnoFarmer

How will setting a price weed out any lowballer?
Heck, it would just give them a raise.

Do you want to go to your city/ state and apply for a lic to plow? .

Do You want your city/state to regulate how much you can charge?..

you need to be told the minn and the Max you can charge?

Really????

Let free enterprise live!!!!
The market will regulate what we can make all on it's own.

Do we really need the GOVT to regulate us. 



LLM, a pesticide lic is not a business lic and there are laws to cover unsafe equipment, tax fraud, Ins fraud. You your self do not have every thing in place to operate a business. You are operating "under the radar."


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## LLM Ann Arbor

You dont have a clue you moron.

I have five Agriculture/Commercial Applicator licenses, and a business license with a contractor/registration number that costs me 100 dollars a year.


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## ECS

Wow!!! I miss one day on here and I have to spend my time reading 5 pages. If you want the govt to regulate waht to charge, the next step would be to regulate how much you can make because the person making all the money is making too much and may hurt the lil guy who is about to go under.



dmontgomery;336351 said:


> I hate this pricing standards stuff... Seems like alot of whining to me. The last thing we need is more government/regulations related to anything. What's next subsities for snow plowers. Come on...... This is America, the land of opportunity. You either need to figure out how to be successful in a free competitive market........ or if you can't compete then it's time to find other work........
> 
> Businesses fail all the time.........that's part of the freedom.....
> 
> D


Very well said.



SnoFarmer;336463 said:


> It would be great for people who can not figure their costs.
> 
> But why do you want someone else setting your prices?
> 
> What happened to competition, free enterprise, capitalism?
> 
> Poorly run business should fail and well run business should flourish.
> 
> I for one do not need big brother to tell me how much or how little to charge.
> 
> Next your going to demand we shovel walks too........
> 
> P.s. and every thing Basher said!!!:waving:


I don't want anyone setting my prices but me. 
Nothing has happened to free enterprise yet and let's keep it that way.
Big brother is too involved as it is. No need to have him or anyone else telling me what I can charge for my service.
Shovel walks????????????? Are you friggin nuts?



LLM Ann Arbor;336501 said:


> Does every firefighter on the planet plow snow? Or is it just me.
> 
> I got a bucket, garden hose and a ladder. I should fight fires.


It is just you.
Uhhhhhhhh, maybe that would be be a start. Get a second job, or better yet, perhaps a first job and plow on the side.



LLM Ann Arbor;336509 said:


> I hate to say it but rather than a an industry standard, Id love to see a business license requirement and licensing to plow snow and enforcement of the law.
> 
> That would get rid of all these lowballing under the table hacks tomorrow, and prices would stabilize.


Why, look at all the rules and regulations that are not enforced now. So what the heck would more do? That is the last thing any of us need is more regulations, fees, rules. 
*Hello!! McFly!!* If you were here right now I think I would have to do like the bully did to McFly in the movie (Back to the Future). Hello!! while I am tapping my knuckles on your forehead. You really need to wake up and smell the roses.



LLM Ann Arbor;336512 said:


> '
> 
> Thats what I mean by saying everyone who makes a good wage has unions to thank for it whether they belong to one, or not.


*That is pure BS* and if you really believe that, then you need to get out and see something other than your computer monitor.



Mark Oomkes;336516 said:


> OK, LLM, I'm sick and tired of it. SHUT UP and get over that some people are ambitious enought to have 2 jobs instead of sitting in front of their computers *****ing about no snow, no money, no work etc, etc. Think about who is more than willing to run into a burning building to save your sorry ass, any time, any day, any where. Believe it or not, even if you were in my jurisdiction, I would risk my life for your sorry, *****ing, pissing, moaning carcass because it's my job, that I am proud and willing to do. Get off your freaking high horse and be thankful that there are people out there willing to sacrifice for this country and it's citizens.


Don't hold it in Mark. Don't be shy. Just say what is on your mind.



jerry andersen;336567 said:


> We all need to join together and do what we can to add strength to the industry we love to work in.


That is what forums like this are for. We can all learn something from all the others around the country. We can learn how to cut costs, increase profits, increase sales, ect...... and grow. What we do with this information is up to us, not up to the city, county, state or feds. I want it left up to me whether or not I make it or not, not any gvt regulations.



jerry andersen;336575 said:


> 3rd year back now. Went through some bad times about 8yrs before i started back this time. Which made me deiced to quit. I always miss the industry but never realized how much until i started back at it.I guess the thing this time around is i realized all the mistakes i made the first time and as a growing company not making those mistakes again. I won't blow smoke i"m not a large company there is still just a few of us.


And you did not need any union or standardization to find this out did you?



LLM Ann Arbor;336583 said:


> Like I said....I think State or munincipal licensing and some regulation of this industry would solve a lot of the problems you have pointed out. Im not big government, but there are a lot of people doing this without insurance, without paying taxes or filing a tax return, and some of the equioment I see out there is unsafe at best, and not road worthy (iE Overloaded v-boxes and trucks for one).
> 
> I have a business license to be able to apply Pesticides and there are requirements, and an inspector thats paid from the dollars generated by the fee's.
> 
> Let the market bare itself out and weed these guys out, but at the prices they charge, they in efect, are "fixing" prices for all of us.
> .


There are already govt regulations about paying taxes. One more regulation is not going to make them pay taxes.
Then why are there so many out there applying without a liscence?
Why are they fixing the prices for you or anyone else. It is your choice to lower your price. If they all do shoddy work, does that mean that you will also do shoddy work?



LLM Ann Arbor;336732 said:


> Thats why I made sure to say the regulations need to be enforced. Mark.
> 
> If they aren't enforced that doesn't mean the law or theory behind having it, isn't sound.


They aren't enforced now because there are so many lazy and overpaid people out there working for the govt. They are going to get paid whether they bust someone or not. It is not just in the Fert business either. Look at BIG GOVERNMENT, illegals, FS, BLM, IRS and the list is pretty much endless.



LLM Ann Arbor;336768 said:


> It's just a thought. It's not like it will ever happen and I'm not writing my Congressman or Rep and begging for new legislation.


Well why not write them and tell them you want the regulations already on the books to be enforced like they are supposed to be?



LLM Ann Arbor;336871 said:


> Did the mom and pop department stores welcome the competition Wal Mart brought to the table?


Wal Mart didn't run the mom & pops out, the consumer did. Wal Mart had the idea of buying cheap, keeping costs down and having lots of volumn to make it work. The stores that survived against Wal Mart changed the way they managed their business to survive. They both gave the consumer what they wanted either in service, price or other ways. The same thing applies to all industries. You can bow down and quit, or you can fight and have a successful business.


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## SnoFarmer

LLM Ann Arbor;336583 said:


> ).
> 
> I have a business license to be able to apply Pesticides and there are requirements, and an inspector thats paid from the dollars generated by the fee's.
> QUOTE]
> 
> What is a business lic?
> 
> What is it when you file for your LLC, which you say you do not have.
> 
> I only had to pay once for my lic.
> 
> You use a business lic to apply pesticides and you call me the moron...


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## jcesar

Ann Arbor,
If you spent half the time thinking, that you do spouting off at the thing you call a mouth, you might learn something from someone who has more than a first grade education.
If you have five certifications, and a license to do business as a contractor, as you say, then answer this....
Why are you so broke? 
Maybe you don't know how to do the job
Maybe you are too lazy to get out of bed
Maybe you just suck at what you do
I am not for sure, but I will say that you suck at anything I have seen so far that requires a brain!
Quit whining like a calf and be a man! You get so defensive about anything that someone says, which may differ from your point of view. Well, let me tell you, that your point of view does not mean **** to me, or probably anyone else here with a brain!!!!

Sorry to hijack, and go on a bashing spree, but the guy is nuckin futs


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## ECS

jcesar;336951 said:


> Ann Arbor,
> If you spent half the time thinking, that you do spouting off at the thing you call a mouth, you might learn something from someone who has more than a first grade education.
> If you have five certifications, and a license to do business as a contractor, as you say, then answer this....
> Why are you so broke?
> Maybe you don't know how to do the job
> Maybe you are too lazy to get out of bed
> Maybe you just suck at what you do
> I am not for sure, but I will say that you suck at anything I have seen so far that requires a brain!
> Quit whining like a calf and be a man! You get so defensive about anything that someone says, which may differ from your point of view. Well, let me tell you, that your point of view does not mean **** to me, or probably anyone else here with a brain!!!!
> 
> Sorry to hijack, and go on a bashing spree, but the guy is nuckin futs


 LMAO   That is so good and true. Come to think of it, it is actually sad.


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## SnoFarmer

Someone is going to be put on iggy!!:waving:


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## jcesar

Maybe the mods should put him on iggy!!!!


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## LLM Ann Arbor

SnoFarmer;336949 said:


> LLM Ann Arbor;336583 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ).
> 
> I have a business license to be able to apply Pesticides and there are requirements, and an inspector thats paid from the dollars generated by the fee's.
> QUOTE]
> 
> What is a business lic?
> 
> What is it when you file for your LLC, which you say you do not have.
> 
> I only had to pay once for my lic.
> 
> You use a business lic to apply pesticides and you call me the moron...
> 
> 
> 
> A business license is required by the State of Michigan Dept of Agriculture to apply pesticides as a business owner.
> 
> Then I have Five certifications on my Commercial Pesticide Applicators License.
> 
> Moron.
Click to expand...


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## LLM Ann Arbor

Brown Noser said:


> Ann Arbor,
> Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
> Why are you so broke?


Im not BN.

Or I wouldn't be able to sit here all day and hassle you guys, pay a 1400 dollar mortgage and 1500 dollars in other monthly bills.


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## jcesar

Is that all you pay? I wish. I pay almost that in one bill per month. 

MORON
That just goes to show that he who has no ambition, is usually called LLM ANN ARBOR!!!


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## LLM Ann Arbor

Bummer.....

No wonder you need three jobs.


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## jcesar

You are a real piece of work. Did you get dropped on your head as a child?


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## jcesar

But I do have to say this to you, we are taking space on someone else's thread. I started one called Bring it, just for you Ann Arbor, so I will see you there?


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## snoking

i have no more resraint to keep me from chiming in....

Jerry there are alot of differences on pricing but if it helps truck with front plow 35/hr, front and back 50/hr, expanding back blade 75/hr. loader 95-150/hr, my goal is 1000/night per peice of equipment out....

hope thats what your looking for ....hard to give the per push stuff...suggested pricing would be to make money at what you do, not b**** about what they arent doing like some one else..



LLM in my god of snow, he makes more money than grows on my tree in the back yard, his trucks dont break, and he can plow a parking lot while sleeping.

we all need to learn this, call before you wipe your a**....you need a permit to do that not to mention a liscence to flush..... 





Let me know if i can offer you anything else from my carpet square.. 

Erik


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## basher

dmontgomery;336510 said:


> well I wouldn't be.....because I left a career in computers to become a FF. It's not about the money for me. Hence the reason I have I second job......QUOTE]
> 
> And those you protect thank you for it
> 
> 
> 
> LLM Ann Arbor;336501 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got a bucket, garden hose and a ladder. I should fight fires.
> 
> 
> 
> You'll also need a set of balls
Click to expand...


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## jerry andersen

Hey guys just got in from hunting don't have alot of time i just wanted to tell all of you we need to keep the debate going. i will be on tomorrow


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## jerry andersen

I guess part of the ideal is to set a standard for alot of parts of the business. Not only snow removal but we can start there. 

Here is the idea your mechanic has a book that tells how long it takes to put a water pump on a chevy. In this case we'll say 4hrs a good mechanic can do it in half the time. the book was designed for prefect scenarios the mechanic still has to determine the hourly rate and if the accurate for the auto he is about to work on.

Like i said i don't have the answers but am willing to listen to all ideas. The ideas for suggested pricing is not limited to $$$$$$ most of it is time. Everyone has a different loaded operating rate. I get that but what i don't get is why we don't help everyone get on the same page. The guy that is doing a driveway and sidewalks for $15.00 doesn't realize he could get $25-$30 wait till he hits the garage door he'll wish he had ins.

Some of the suggested pricing could also cover things like being a sub in your area to paying a sub. I also agree it would be very difficult to get this to work but there are so many intelligent people on here with all different views i believe it could be done.

1 more thought
90% of the people in the state you live in operating under the same suggested operation. Where would that leave the large maintenance companies that have never seen these properties or talked with the manager of the property you maintain?


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## Mick

jerry andersen;337944 said:


> 1 more thought 90% of the people in the state you live in operating under the same suggested operation. Where would that leave the large maintenance companies that have never seen these properties or talked with the manager of the property you maintain?


Right now the large maintenance companies bid on properties without ever seeing them - they just ask someone local to go bid it and let them know. With standardized pricing, it would make it real easy for the maintenance companies - all they'd have to do is look at thier chart and they'd know what to charge for any given area. Then they just tell the sub "Well, that's the standard price for that lot in your area, so that's what we'll pay". Never mind that they set the price by the "standard" in New York City.


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## jerry andersen

That is true mick. But if the sub knows if that is standard in his area he be able to make a better decision. If they want him to we'll say mow a acer for $25.00 and he knows the suggested standard in his city is $50.00 he will be less likely to take the work. the suggested standard would also help him with how long a flat square acer should take to mow. In turn will help him to know if he is being productive or not. These are only ideas i like to think when work is slow. I appreciate your commits though


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