# Air Brakes versus hydraulic/Electric Assist



## SnoJob67 (Sep 3, 2001)

From the driver's seat, how do air brakes work? I was told once they are a bit tricky to get used to, but that was not from an experienced driver.

Anyway, it is NOT a federal requirement for a vehicle with air brakes to be CDL, contrary to popular belief. States must meet federal regs, but some states obviously have their own regulations that are more strict.

I have heard air brakes are a big plus for stopping power. Any comments regarding how tricky they are to operate would be appreciated. I have never seen an air brake setup and don't even know if you still use a pedal on the floor (that is how little I know on the subject). 

I know a few of you guys have a variety of the bigger trucks and may be able to help.


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## SnoJob67 (Sep 3, 2001)

I did a search and found information, but any additional input would be great.


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

The brake pedal is in the normal position, depressing it opens a valve which directs air from a storage tank to the wheels. At the wheels there are a few different set ups but the most common is the S cam.

Here there is a sealed chamber with a heavy rubber diaphram that fills with air from the pedal. As it fills, the diaphram pushes a rod which activates a lever that rotates the S cam. There are rollers that ride the S cam on the end of the brake shoes, this is what forces the brake shoes against the drum.

If properly adjusted, you get more braking force than you ever will from hydraulics. You don't pump the brakes on this system as you do hydraulics or you'll run out your air. The only tricky thing is making sure all wheels are adjusted the same, or one will lock much sooner than the others, risking a skid.


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## SnoJob67 (Sep 3, 2001)

Pelican-

Thanks for the reply. That was pretty easy to understand. 

It sounds like a truck with air brakes would work just fine for us. I already have a cdl cheater with hydraulic brakes, but didn't want to rule out a truck equipped with air brakes if the right opportunity presents itself.

Thanks again.


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## Chuck Smith (Dec 30, 1999)

Snojob, we have one truck that is non cdl by weight regulations, but it has air brakes. Here in NJ, you need an air brake endorsement to drive a vehicle with air brakes. It kinda defeats the purpose of it being non cdl...

Stop by your local DMV and pick up a CDL Driver Manual. It should have a full explaination of air brakes (though Pelican summed it up pretty good).

As far as them being tricky to get used to, in a way that is true. They are "touchy" compared to hydraulic brakes.... especially when the truck is empty.

There is a built in saftey feature. When the air pressure drops to a certain pressure, the parking brake pops, locking the brakes. Before this happens, an alarm sounds alerting you that the pressure is low. If you ever hear that alarm, PULL OVER.

I am pretty sure this was the cause of a nasty accident here in NJ a couple of years ago. An 18 wheeler tanker was stopped in the center lane of a highway with his brakes locked, and a second tanker didn't see him until it was too late. They collided, and it was on a bridge. The fire was so intense that the heat warped the girders of the bridge and had it closed for months while it was reconstructed.

Pelican, you may have heard about it, it was on RT 80, and all over the news.

~Chuck


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## SLC1 (Jul 27, 2000)

I have heard with plowing with Air brakes it sometimes doesnt give a chance for the air to build up from all the stop and go in a parking lot, on a road there would be no problem but for a parking lot you can use up all the air and it might not have a chance to build up pressure, This is just what i have heard and is not from personal experience. Just my two cents


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## cat320 (Aug 25, 2000)

That would be kinda true ,unless you have a real big lot and your pushing in such a way that it's like your plowing a street and just driving.But if in a small lot that your required to go back and forth it could ear up your air supply.


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## Pelican (Nov 16, 2001)

Chuck, I do remember seeing that incident on the news.

I understand the comment about stop & go in a parking lot running out the air, but I question the efficiency of having a truck that size in a lot that small. I've only done street routes with air brakes, so I have no experience, but I don't think I'd want to horse a big 6 wheeler around a tight parking lot.


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## CT18fireman (Nov 30, 2000)

I remember seeing that on the news as well. Also a lot of changes in thought and practice in terms of fighting such a fire came from experiences from that incident.

Off the topic but it was a bad accident.


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## GeoffD (Dec 21, 1999)

I never had a problem doing lots with a truck that has air breaks. When you think about it, you shouldn't need to use the breaks that much. Most truck's air compressors build enough air so that the system can recover fast enough, even in a plowing enviroment.

Geoff


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## SnoJob67 (Sep 3, 2001)

Thanks for all of the replies. I think I got the information I needed.


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## [email protected] (Oct 2, 2008)

yes you do still have a pedal. the main difference is the "feel". with hydraulic brakes, when you push the pedal, the pedal pushes brake fluid and the brake fluid pushes the shoes against the drums, in other words, YOU supply the pressure. with air brakes, when you push the pedal, the pedal opens a valve, which lets compressed air push the shoes against the drums.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

Air brakes rule. To stop a big heavy vehicle, nothing works better. I can stop my 80,000lb semi faster than I can stop my pickup with a 10,000lb trailer on it.

Air doesn't work the brakes. Springs work the brakes. The air holds the springs back off and as you press the treadle valve (brake pedal) you release some air and the spring push against the cam which applies the brake shoes. Air doesn't actually push against it, the springs do. (which is why they are called spring brakes).

Air brakes fail on, hydraulic brakes fail off. Which means if you lose air pressure on an air brake truck, the brakes come fully on (the parking valves come pop out, and the springs are full on) and you aren't moving. (which is why the warning light/bell comes on at 60psi, to tell you to get over before you lose the ability to control your truck completely. On hydraulic brakes, if you lose hydraulic pressure, you have no brakes.

You do need an air brake endorsement on your CDL to drive an air brake equipped vehicle commercially. (and you are driving commercially, just go get the CDL). You can get a CDL without air brakes. (although most people don't).

More to go wrong on air brakes, and some more maintenance and checks (esp when cold/humid) but really very simple and at the end, they simply work, and they work like you can't believe. There is a lag time between pressing the pedal and something happening, and that does throw people initially, but after that, it's amazing. 

I don't know how that would work plowing, you will lose pressure if you continue to pump them. Driving down a road plowing (like city/county/state trucks) wouldn't do it. 

CDL class A (combination vehicles), air brakes, doubles/triples, tanker endorsements


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## SnoFarmer (Oct 15, 2004)

I think the op might have figured it out by now

op date
09-01-2002, 10:45 PM


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

weird
how did it get bumped???????


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Well shoot, might as well stir up some more controversy, maybe we can get wisdom from a certain member here too. 

LC, hate to disagree with ya, but if a truck is under 26,000 GVW you do not need an air brake endorsement for THAT truck. Just had this explained by a truck cop regarding tanks. 

If the truck doesn't require a CDL, you don't need one. You can't get an endorsement on a normal operator's license. So therefore, it is impossible to have an endorsement for something that you can't get. 

Makes sense. Also, guy I know had it out with the Indiana folks at their weigh station regarding this matter. He won. 

Just ticks me off because I wish I would've gotten my F800 with air instead of the crappy hydraulic brakes that are way more expensive to repair.


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## LoneCowboy (Jan 2, 2007)

That's interesting, but I don't know
I got it explained that you couldn't run air brakes truck without the endorsement (which I agree I don't believe you can get without a CDL).

Remember though, ask 3 DOT guys/cops the same question, you'll get 3 different answers. 

And you should clarify your answer, because if you had a 19,500 truck with a 14,000lb trailer, you would need a class A CDL. (although not with a 10,000lb trailer, in some states).
It's all way more confusing than it should be.


Also interesting on the hydraulic brakes being more expensive to repair. That's your experience?


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

Pelican;49088 said:


> The brake pedal is in the normal position, depressing it opens a valve which directs air from a storage tank to the wheels. At the wheels there are a few different set ups but the most common is the S cam.
> 
> Here there is a sealed chamber with a heavy rubber diaphram that fills with air from the pedal. As it fills, the diaphram pushes a rod which activates a lever that rotates the S cam. There are rollers that ride the S cam on the end of the brake shoes, this is what forces the brake shoes against the drum.
> 
> If properly adjusted, you get more braking force than you ever will from hydraulics. You don't pump the brakes on this system as you do hydraulics or you'll run out your air. The only tricky thing is making sure all wheels are adjusted the same, or one will lock much sooner than the others, risking a skid.


it's been awhile since i've taken the cdl test, but i don't think this is the way the brakes work........ directing air from the storage tank to the brakes releases the brake, releasing the air from the brake chambers applys the brakes


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

LoneCowboy;595952 said:


> That's interesting, but I don't know
> I got it explained that you couldn't run air brakes truck without the endorsement (which I agree I don't believe you can get without a CDL).
> 
> Remember though, ask 3 DOT guys/cops the same question, you'll get 3 different answers.
> ...


hydro can be more $$$$$ to repair on fords because they have that hydro system set up like air brakes and the booster tanks are expensive to replace


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## BigLou80 (Feb 25, 2008)

LoneCowboy;595952 said:


> That's interesting, but I don't know
> I got it explained that you couldn't run air brakes truck without the endorsement (which I agree I don't believe you can get without a CDL).
> 
> Remember though, ask 3 DOT guys/cops the same question, you'll get 3 different answers.
> ...


 I think in my state you need an air brake endorsement even if its the family minivan. As for trailers if the vehicle israted for 17,000 lbs and 10,000 of towning they want a class A CDL even if the trailer is only rated at 2,500 lbs


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

LoneCowboy;595952 said:


> That's interesting, but I don't know
> I got it explained that you couldn't run air brakes truck without the endorsement (which I agree I don't believe you can get without a CDL).
> 
> Remember though, ask 3 DOT guys/cops the same question, you'll get 3 different answers.
> ...


Yup, they haven't lasted as long with 4 wheel drums, yep, more expensive. Plus they have some asinine warning light that will work for about 2 weeks (not activate) then it goes on everything you pull the parking brake, sometimes going down the road. I finally gave up on replacing it as it doesn't mean the brakes are not working and it just keeps happening.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

I got pulled over last week for some trailer issues. I run a Nissian UD-2000, 19,500 GVW with a MI state 24,000 pound plate with Air brakes and a DOT number. I showed the cop my medical card. He gave it back. I don't have a CDL. He didn't say anthing about the air brakes and not having a CDL. Mark Oomkes, its good to hear you say that I don't need one and with the cop not making a deal about it, I'm not going to worry about it.

Air Brakes rule. How many of you drive your normal pick-up truck and when you come to a stop, make the psst, psst noise when you hit the brakes? I don't have to because my truck makes it.

Very touchy. With out a load, the rears will lock up easy on mine anyway. 

As far as running out of air. If you are trying to hook up your trailer and if it takes several trys to do it, the air can run low. Or if you are trying to back up and hit the brakes a bunch, it can run low. But if it does, all you have to do is wait a minute.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

QuadPlower;596961 said:


> Very touchy. With out a load, the rears will lock up easy on mine anyway.
> 
> As far as running out of air. If you are trying to hook up your trailer and if it takes several trys to do it, the air can run low. Or if you are trying to back up and hit the brakes a bunch, it can run low. But if it does, all you have to do is wait a minute.


i dont have any air brake experiance other than driving maybe once or twice, very short distances to help a friend.....

if your telling me that you tried to hook up a trailer and your air supply runs low, after a few attempts..i wouldnt even want to think about what it would be like plowing

could you add a bigger air tank, and possibly somekinda electric air pump to keep the pressure up there? or jsut a larger compressor?

and wouldnt the "petal feel" be helpful? yeah , pushuing really hard stopping a big truck sometimes gets old, but again... having your brakes lock up on ice, i bet would happen alot , if you were plowing with it - just my thinking...


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## Jay brown (Dec 26, 2005)

elite1msmith;597003 said:


> i dont have any air brake experiance other than driving maybe once or twice, very short distances to help a friend.....
> 
> if your telling me that you tried to hook up a trailer and your air supply runs low, after a few attempts..i wouldnt even want to think about what it would be like plowing
> 
> ...


your supply tanks will not run low or even close to low when hooking up a trailer......


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Jay brown;597074 said:


> your supply tanks will not run low or even close to low when hooking up a trailer......


I agree plus our newer truck has ABS and it seems to work really well. Air brakes are the only way to go., they last forever, with how we use them.


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## elite1msmith (Sep 10, 2007)

even while plowing short parking lots with lots of traffic?


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## B&B (Nov 4, 2006)

Jay brown;595957 said:


> it's been awhile since i've taken the cdl test, but i don't think this is the way the brakes work........ directing air from the storage tank to the brakes releases the brake, releasing the air from the brake chambers applys the brakes


What Pelican was describing (so long ago) was the SERVICE side of the system Jay. What your thinking of is the EMERGENCY side. So your both correct. :salute:


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

elite1msmith;597003 said:


> i
> and wouldnt the "petal feel" be helpful? yeah , pushuing really hard stopping a big truck sometimes gets old, but again... having your brakes lock up on ice, i bet would happen alot , if you were plowing with it - just my thinking...


You just learn to be lighter on the pedal and with a constant pressure (no pumping or stabbing). Locking up is just as likely with hydraulic as it is with air. Even with a truck with air and ABS you can still lock up the brakes.


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## QuadPlower (Jan 4, 2007)

No. What I ment was hitting the brakes from inside the cab several times while someone directs you back to hook up the trailer. Count how many times you hit your brakes doing that some time. My trailers are electric brakes so the air doesn't go to them. It is just the process of backing up.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;597085 said:


> I agree plus our newer truck has ABS and it seems to work really well. Air brakes are the only way to go., they last forever, with how we use them.


Ditto, and the ABS on my 750 is the best ABS system I have used on any vehicle. Yes, they can lock up yet, but the ABS will engage rather quickly.

And it really works.



elite1msmith;597125 said:


> even while plowing short parking lots with lots of traffic?


Never had a problem, plowing or salting. Going on season #9.


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## rreidnauer (Mar 29, 2009)

LoneCowboy;595619 said:


> Air doesn't work the brakes. Springs work the brakes. *The air holds the springs back off and as you press the treadle valve (brake pedal) you release some air and the spring push against the cam which applies the brake shoes. Air doesn't actually push against it, the springs do*. (which is why they are called spring brakes).
> 
> Air brakes fail on, hydraulic brakes fail off. Which means if you lose air pressure on an air brake truck, the brakes come fully on (the parking valves come pop out, and the springs are full on) and you aren't moving. (which is why the warning light/bell comes on at 60psi, to tell you to get over before you lose the ability to control your truck completely. On hydraulic brakes, if you lose hydraulic pressure, you have no brakes.





Jay brown;595957 said:


> it's been awhile since i've taken the cdl test, but i don't think this is the way the brakes work........ *directing air from the storage tank to the brakes releases the brake, releasing the air from the brake chambers applys the brakes*


I apologize for my first post being one which is correcting the regulars, (and dragging up an older thread) but while Googling for specific information, I came across the two inaccuracies in the quotes above, and felt accurate information should be given.

Both quotes are partly correct, except only when speaking of the park/emergency brake portion of the system. The rear brakes are dual air chambered, and the park brake chambers do release the brakes as air is applied. But the opposite is true for the front and rear service brakes, where air is applied to activate the brakes. Both are easily demonstrated. For park, release the park brake and you'll hear the chambers fill. Set the park brake and you'll hear it blow off the air in the chambers. For service brakes, press the pedal solidly, and you'll hear air enter the chambers. Let off the pedal quickly and you'll hear the air blow off from the chambers.

As for hydraulics, so true. I experienced both a front and a rear brake failure (on two different occasions) on a pickup with rotted steel brake lines, and I'll tell you, that sucks. So much for dual brake circuits being the built in safety, since the proportioning valve prevented the working brakes from functioning. I was lucky on both accounts, to not have had an accident.

Oh, as far as air brakes and CDL, I'll also confirm that Federal regs do not require a CDL for an air brake equipped vehicle under 26,001 pounds, but some states may. (like here in PA, where even if a combined vehicle and trailer is under 26,001 actual, but the G*C*WR exceeds 26,000, you require a CDL w/ air brake endorsement) This I know because I legally own and operate a 23,900 GVW, air brake equipped truck on a regular license, but if I wish to tow, I need to get my CDL. (or only tow a little trailer not exceeding 2100 GVW)

Again, sorry for being a Mr.Knowitall. I'll shut up now.

Rod


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## Blazin (Mar 18, 2007)

I work on air brakes all the time. They are very simple to repair, maintain, & adjust. They are far superior to juice brakes. All 1 ton trucks should have the option for them when new.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

rreidnauer;774235 said:


> I apologize for my first post being one which is correcting the regulars, (and dragging up an older thread) but while Googling for specific information, I came across the two inaccuracies in the quotes above, and felt accurate information should be given.
> 
> Both quotes are partly correct, except only when speaking of the park/emergency brake portion of the system. The rear brakes are dual air chambered, and the park brake chambers do release the brakes as air is applied. But the opposite is true for the front and rear service brakes, where air is applied to activate the brakes. Both are easily demonstrated. For park, release the park brake and you'll hear the chambers fill. Set the park brake and you'll hear it blow off the air in the chambers. For service brakes, press the pedal solidly, and you'll hear air enter the chambers. Let off the pedal quickly and you'll hear the air blow off from the chambers.
> 
> ...


Thats is the way I understand air brakes to work also

Though you only need a CDL for a combo of 26k+ if the trailer is 10k+


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## BigDave12768 (Nov 17, 2006)

SnoJob67;49086 said:


> From the driver's seat, how do air brakes work? I was told once they are a bit tricky to get used to, but that was not from an experienced driver.
> 
> Anyway, it is NOT a federal requirement for a vehicle with air brakes to be CDL, contrary to popular belief. States must meet federal regs, but some states obviously have their own regulations that are more strict.
> 
> .


You are wrong. You need a CDL to drive a truck with Air brakes. Most people will tell you dont till you actually read the book. With in the first couple pages is where it tells you need a CDL for it. If you drive a truck with DOT numbers on it. You need a Class C CDL to drive it. Now if your truck has a GVWR of 10,000> you need numbers and a Medical card + CDL C to drive it. So if you truck under 26k has airbrakes you need a CDL. This law can be taken many different ways. But my dertimation means nothing since I am not the COp standing outside your window. But I dont know why you are affraid of getting a CDl its easy


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

BigDave12768;774347 said:


> You are wrong. You need a CDL to drive a truck with Air brakes. Most people will tell you dont till you actually read the book. With in the first couple pages is where it tells you need a CDL for it. If you drive a truck with DOT numbers on it. You need a Class C CDL to drive it. Now if your truck has a GVWR of 10,000> you need numbers and a Medical card + CDL C to drive it. *So if you truck under 26k has airbrakes you need a CDL.* This law can be taken many different ways. But my dertimation means nothing since I am not the COp standing outside your window. But I dont know why you are affraid of getting a CDl its easy


Popcorn anyone?

littledave is wrong again.

And littledave, Snojob started this thread in '02, probably hasn't checked in on it for awhile.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

BigDave12768;774347 said:


> You are wrong. You need a CDL to drive a truck with Air brakes. Most people will tell you dont till you actually read the book. With in the first couple pages is where it tells you need a CDL for it. If you drive a truck with DOT numbers on it. You need a Class C CDL to drive it. Now if your truck has a GVWR of 10,000> you need numbers and a Medical card + CDL C to drive it. So if you truck under 26k has airbrakes you need a CDL. This law can be taken many different ways. But my dertimation means nothing since I am not the COp standing outside your window. But I dont know why you are affraid of getting a CDl its easy


Can you copy/paste or link to where it says you need air brake endorsment or a CDL for a truck under 26k

Please show also where it says you need a Class C for a USDOT numbered Truck


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## bugthug (Oct 13, 2004)

(1) Class A.--A Class A license shall be issued to those persons 18 years of age or
older who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate any combination of vehicles with a
gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, provided the gross vehicle weight rating of
the vehicle or vehicles being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
(i) The holder of a Class A license shall be deemed qualified to
operate those vehicles for which a Class B or Class C license is issued.
(ii) Where required under this title, appropriate endorsements must
be obtained.
(2) Class B.--A Class B license shall be issued to those persons 18 years of age or
older who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate any single vehicle with a gross
vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more or any such vehicle towing a vehicle having a
gross vehicle weight rating of not more than 10,000 pounds.
(i) The holder of a Class B license shall be deemed qualified to
operate those vehicles for which a Class C license is issued.
(ii) Where required under this title, appropriate endorsements must
be obtained.
(3) Class C.--A Class C license shall be issued to those persons 18 years of age or
older, except as provided in section 1503 (relating to persons ineligible for licensing; license
issuance to minors; junior driver's license), who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate
any single vehicle, except those vehicles requiring a Class M qualification, with a gross vehicle
weight rating of not more than 26,000 pounds or any combination of vehicles, except
combination vehicles involving motorcycles, that does not meet the definition of either Class A
or Class B of this section.


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

This is what the manual for the State of MI says about air brake endorsements,

AIR BRAKES TEST
If you want to be licensed to drive vehicles with air brakes, you must pass a 25-question air brake
knowledge test. The vehicle you use for the skills test must be equipped with air brakes. If either of
these conditions has not been met, you will be restricted from operating vehicles with air brakes.

What CDL Restrictions Could I Receive?
Restriction Code 28 —“CDL not valid for operating vehicles equipped with air brakes.” If you do not
pass the air brake knowledge test, or if the vehicle you use for the CDL skills tests is not equipped with air
brakes, you will be restricted from operating vehicles with air brakes.

The only way to get a Air Brake endorsement is to obtain a CDL.


Heres what it says about a Class C

GROUP C
Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or less, or combination of vehicles and the GVWR of the
vehicle being towed is 10,000 pounds or less designed to:
o Transport 16 or more persons (including the driver).
o Transport hazardous materials in amounts requiring placards.

Do I Need a Chauffeur License?
A chauffeur base license is required when a person is:
Employed for the principal purpose of operating a motor vehicle or combination of vehicles with a GVWR or
GCWR or GVW or GCW of 10,000 pounds or more.
Operating a motor vehicle as a carrier of passengers or as a common or contract carrier of property.
Operating a bus, school bus, taxi or limousine.
Drivers operating vehicles singly or in combination with a GVW, GVWR, GCW or GCWR of 10,000 pounds or
more must meet the commercial driver medical requirements (including possession of the appropriate medical
card or medical waiver).
If required, the CDL group designator and CDL endorsements are added to the chauffeur base license.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Crash935;774356 said:


> This is what the manual for the State of MI says about air brake endorsements,
> 
> AIR BRAKES TEST
> If you want to be licensed to drive vehicles with air brakes, you must pass a 25-question air brake
> ...


Jeff, this has been discussed before, but a CDL beater with air brakes does NOT require a CDL or an air brake endorsement.

_Who Needs a CDL?
Any resident who intends to operate:
VEHICLES:
• Having a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more.
COMBINATION VEHICLES:
• Towing a trailer or other vehicles with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more with a gross combination
weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
ANY VEHICLES:
• Designed to transport 16 or more people (including the driver)
• Carrying hazardous materials in amounts requiring placards.
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is the recommended maximum total weight of the vehicle and load as
designated by the vehicle manufacturer. The GVWR label is usually found on the driver side door post of the
power unit and on or near the front of the trailer. The GVWR should not be confused with the elected GVW which
is declared by the vehicle owner for registration purposes.
Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the maximum
loaded weight of a combination vehicle. In the absence of a label, the GCWR will be calculated by adding the
GVWR of the power unit to the GVWR of the vehicle(s) or trailer(s) being towed._

_What Type of CDL Do I Need?
A Michigan resident needs a CDL with the appropriate group designation to operate the following vehicles:
GROUP A:
• Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 pounds or more,
provided the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed is 10,001 pounds or more.
A Group A endorsement will allow a driver to operate a Group B or Group C vehicle provided he/she possess
required endorsement(s).
GROUP B:
• Any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more, or, any such
vehicle, towing a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 10,000 pounds or less.
A Group B endorsement will allow a driver to operate a Group C vehicle provided he/she possess the required
endorsement(s).
GROUP C
Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or less, or combination of vehicles and the GVWR of the
vehicle being towed is 10,000 pounds or less designed to:
o Transport 16 or more persons (including the driver).
o Transport hazardous materials in amounts requiring placards.
What Endorsements Do I Need?
In addition to the appropriate CDL vehicle group designation, endorsements are required to operate the following:
T DOUBLE or TRIPLE TRAILERS: (Triple trailer combinations are not permitted in Michigan).
P PASSENGER: For vehicles which are designed to carry 16 or more people (including the driver).
N TANK: For vehicles designed to haul liquids or liquefied gases in bulk in permanently mounted cargo tanks
rated at 119 gallons or more or portable cargo tanks rated at 1,000 gallons or more.
HAZARDOUS MATERIALS: To carry hazardous materials in amounts requiring placards.
X Combined TANK and HAZARDOUS MATERIAL Endorsements - When an applicant adds both the tank
and hazardous materials endorsements to their driver license.
S SCHOOL BUS for commercial motor vehicles used to transport pre-primary, primary, or secondary school
students from home to school, school to home, or to and from school sponsored events_

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/cdlmanul_16090_7.pdf

No place in the manual does it require an air brake endorsement for a vehicle that does not require a CDL. Because you can NOT get an endorsement without a CDL and you don't need a CDL to operate a vehicle under 26K. So you can't get that endorsement on a normal operator's license. Same goes for my spray tank, no tanker endorsement needed, because the truck doesn't require a CDL.

I know a retired deputy who had this discussion at the Indiana weigh station. They tried writing him a ticket for no air brake endorsement on a truck with a GVW under 26K. When he educated them, they let him go without a ticket.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Mark Oomkes;774357 said:


> Jeff, this has been discussed before, but a CDL beater with air brakes does NOT require a CDL or an air brake endorsement.
> 
> _Who Needs a CDL?
> Any resident who intends to operate:
> ...


Just to clarify what Mark said

Air Brakes isn't a endorsement but a restriction if you don't pass the air brakes test


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## Crash935 (Sep 3, 2003)

OK, you guys win!!!!


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

Crash935;774363 said:


> OK, you guys win!!!!


Come on, you and littledave can't give up that easy.


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## BigDave12768 (Nov 17, 2006)

Mark Oomkes;774351 said:


> Popcorn anyone?
> 
> littledave is wrong again.
> 
> And littledave, Snojob started this thread in '02, probably hasn't checked in on it for awhile.


Um not wrong. You can get in a bit of trouble for driving a truck with Air brakes with out proper license. Second moron check to see who pulled this out of the Archives. IT wasnt me. FYi Little Dave doesnt insult me at all. Mark Dumbkes

Also like I stated in my post. I wont be standing at your window with ticket book. Its all in how anal the cop is. As for a retired cop not getting a ticket LMAO. ofcourse they were going to let him go. Everyone else gets the ticket. Its funny how the people with CDL's know what you can get in trouble for and everyone else trys to flame post.


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## JD Dave (Mar 20, 2007)

Insert eating popcorn smiley here.


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## Mark Oomkes (Dec 10, 2000)

JD Dave;774395 said:


> Insert eating popcorn smiley here.


Trying to decide if I want to follow littledave's advice or have fun. 

What the heck.

bigdave, littledave, mediumdave, if you read the post, you would notice that the retired cop was at a weigh station in a different state, they don't give a crap about retired or not. They just knew that they were in the wrong.

No where, will you find a requirement for a CDL with air brake restriction for operating a truck that does not require a CDL. That would be an oxymoron, and while our gov't is full of morons, they have not changed this loophole yet. But as soon as you post the link that crete asked for showing where he or I am wrong, I'll be happy to admit it.

And FWIW, I DO have a CDL and have had one for quite awhile. I even passed the air brake portion. I'm OK to drive anything up to a semi, no endorsements, though. So I'm not talking out of my ass. Read the quotes I posted, no where does it say a CDL is required just because you have air brakes.

In the mean time, I'll have some popcorn, extra butter, while waiting for your links proving me wrong.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

I think we will be waiting a while so I brought a case JD & Mark


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## Neige (Jan 29, 2008)

cretebaby;774400 said:


> I think we will be waiting a while so I brought a case JD & Mark


Make that a 24, I'm joining you.


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

Neige;774401 said:


> Make that a 24, I'm joining you.


No worries Neige I will get more if we need it


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## sven_502 (Nov 1, 2008)

Eh another everybody against dave thread these are always funny I'm going to cook some popcorn too


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## cretebaby (Aug 23, 2008)

IDK Mark I think I am going to give up on waiting for a reponse:realmad:


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